From Alice.Portillo at PSS.Boeing.com Sat Aug 1 00:15:37 1998
From: Alice.Portillo at PSS.Boeing.com (Portillo, Christina)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: White Space
Message-ID:
In reading 2.10 Whitespace I don't come away with a clear picture what
whitespace is and isn't being passed on through the processor to an
application. Can someone clarify this for me?
Question 1:
"In editing XML documents, it is often convenient to use "white
space" (spaces, tabs, and blank lines, denoted by the nonterminal S in
this specification) to set apart the markup for greater readability.
Such white space is typically not intended for inclusion in the
delivered version of the document."
Although insignificant white space was not intended for inclusion does
it all get passed through the processor anyway?
Question 2:
"An XML processor must always pass all characters in a document
that are not markup through to the application."
Is the white space added "to set apart the markup for greater
readability" considered markup? Does it get passed through the
processor?
Question 3:
"A validating XML processor must also inform the application
which of these characters constitute white space appearing in element
content."
Do I understand correctly, that although the application is informed of
this white space in element content, all this white space is still
passed on?
Christina Portillo
Product Definition and Image Technology
The Boeing Company Phone: 425.237.3351
PO Box 3707 M/S 6H-AF Fax: 425.237.3428
Seattle, WA 98124-2207 christina.portillo@boeing.com
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From tbray at textuality.com Sat Aug 1 01:09:14 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: White Space
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980731160714.00c529f0@207.34.179.21>
At 03:15 PM 7/31/98 -0700, Portillo, Christina wrote:
>In reading 2.10 Whitespace I don't come away with a clear picture what
>whitespace is and isn't being passed on through the processor to an
>application. Can someone clarify this for me?
All white space in the document, regardless of where it appears, must
be passed through to the application under all circumstances. One
twist on this - line-end sequences (CR, LF, CRLF) are all normalized
to a single LF.
You might want to take a look at the annotated spec at xml.com
>Question 3:
> "A validating XML processor must also inform the application
>which of these characters constitute white space appearing in element
>content."
>
>Do I understand correctly, that although the application is informed of
>this white space in element content, all this white space is still
>passed on?
Yes. -Tim
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From shin at comeng.chungnam.ac.kr Sat Aug 1 03:43:15 1998
From: shin at comeng.chungnam.ac.kr (Dongwook Shin)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: Looking for a partner in commercializing an efficient IR engine for SGML/XML data
Message-ID: <35C2717D.70F697D4@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr>
Hello,
I am looking for a partner in commercializing an efficient information
retrirval engine for SGML/XML data we have developed recently.
The engine employs BUS (Bottom Up Scheme) technique that I devised, by
which
indexing overhead can be minimized. The basic idea of BUS is that
indexing is
performed only at the lowest levels of the document structure, while
retrieval
at a higher level can be done at run time by gathering index information
made
at the lowest levels. From an experiment, the index overhead amounts to
30 percent of the source documents tagged in SGML and the retrieval
time is fast as well.
BUS allows the element search and retrieval at any level in the document
structure including:
(1) nested structural search (searching elements that are ancestors of
another elements)
(2) content search
(3) element traversal at an arbitrary level
(4) retrieval of the elements in documents corresponding to a specific
element in a DTD
As for the BUS technique, we demonstrated as well as published a
technical paper
in the Digital Libraries '98. The response of the demonstration was so
good.
If you have an interest, you can test it with a JDK 1.1.5 enabled
browser in
http://savage.comeng.chungnam.ac.kr/~sgml
In this site, you can download a technical paper as well as test the
demo system.
Any inquiry about the system or cooperation is welcome to:
E-mail : shin@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr
FAX: +82-42-822-4997
Postal mail:
Dongwook Shin, Professor
Department of Computer Engineering,
Chungnam National University
220 Kung-Dong, Yusong-Gu 305-764
Republic of Korea
Thanks for your reading
Dongwook Shin
--
Dongwook Shin
Department of Computer Engineering, Chungnam National University, Korea
E-mail: shin@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr FAX: +82-42-822-4997
URL: http://savage.comeng.chungnam.ac.kr/~shin/index.html
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From jmodre at edu.uni-klu.ac.at Sat Aug 1 10:31:13 1998
From: jmodre at edu.uni-klu.ac.at (Juergen Modre)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: xml parser toolkits for "legacy" environment?
References: <35c22d344f40004@laurel.kp.org>
Message-ID: <35C2D12F.8F0BFC36@edu.uni-klu.ac.at>
Biron,Paul V wrote:
> Is anyone out there working on tools that would allow someone who is
> confined to "legacy" environments (COBOL, FORTRAN, etc. for programming
> languages and MUMPS, OS/400, MVS, etc. for operating systems) to use
> XML?
You can e.g. use the free "XML Generator" from
DataChannel (www.datachannel.com) to translate legacy data to XML.
"The DataChannel XML Generator lets you translate data from arbritary sources to XML.
Starting from delimited text files, you can XML-enable ANY application"
Hope this helps & all the best
Juergen
-------------------------------------------------------------------
JUERGEN MODRE | Phone: +43 4214 2320
Reisdorf 6 | Mobile: +43 664 233 22 22
A-9371 Brueckl | E-mail: jmodre@edu.uni-klu.ac.at
Austria (Europe) | WWW: http://www.edu.uni-klu.ac.at/~jmodre
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From eriblair at mediom.qc.ca Sat Aug 1 18:56:45 1998
From: eriblair at mediom.qc.ca (Eric Riblair)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: HELP ME PLEASE ... ERROR LOADING MESSAGES FROM MSXML applet.
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980801125939.0090f5e0@mediom.qc.ca>
"When" I'd try to load an xmldso applet in an IE4.01 for Mac ... I had a
response like this:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
"An...Error" loading class: com.ms.com.ComSuccessException
java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid class signature.
Error loading class: com.ms.osp.OLEDBSimpleProvider
java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid class signature.
Error loading class: com.ms.xml.dso.XMLRowsetProvider
java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.ms.osp.OLEDBSimpleProvider
Error loading class: com.ms.com.ComSuccessException
java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid class signature.
Error loading class: com.ms.osp.OLEDBSimpleProvider
java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid class signature.
Error loading class: com.ms.osp.OLEDBSimpleProvider
java.lang.ClassFormatError: Invalid class signature.
Error loading class: com.ms.xml.dso.XMLRowsetProvider
java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.ms.osp.OLEDBSimpleProvider
java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: com.ms.xml.dso.XMLRowsetProvider
at
com/ms/vm/loader/URLClassLoader.loadClass(Ljava/lang/String;Z)Ljava/lang/Cla
ss; (URLClassLoader.java:0:0x28)
at
java/lang/ClassLoader.loadClassInternal(Ljava/lang/String;Z)Ljava/lang/Class
; (ClassLoader.java:0:0x1f)
at com/ms/xml/dso/SchemaNode.createElement(Z)V (XMLDSO.java:0:0x0)
at
com/ms/xml/dso/SchemaNode.setRow(Lcom/ms/xml/util/Name;)Lcom/ms/xml/dso/Sche
maNode; (XMLDSO.java:0:0xc)
at
com/ms/xml/dso/XMLDSO.generateSchema(Lcom/ms/xml/om/Element;Lcom/ms/xml/dso/
SchemaNode;)V (XMLDSO.java:0:0x32)
at com/ms/xml/dso/XMLDSO.updateSchema()V (XMLDSO.java:0:0x6a)
at com/ms/xml/dso/XMLDSO.init()V (XMLDSO.java:0:0xf0)
at com/ms/jam/AppletPanel.doAppletInit()V (AppletPanel.java:0:0x35)
at com/ms/jam/AppletPanel.doAppletStateChange(I)V (AppletPanel.java:0:0x2f)
at com/ms/jam/AppletViewerPanel.runApplet()V (AppletViewerPanel.java:0:0xba)
at com/ms/jam/JAMAppletViewer.run()V (JAMAppletViewer.java:0:0x7)
at java/lang/Thread.run()V (Thread.java:0:0x10)
Does that mean anything to someone in this list ...
Thanks for any help,
Eric
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From jlapp at webmethods.com Sat Aug 1 19:15:31 1998
From: jlapp at webmethods.com (Joe Lapp)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: White Space
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980731160714.00c529f0@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <199808011715.NAA06738@bag-1.mail.digex.net>
At 04:07 PM 7/31/1998 -0700, Tim Bray wrote:
>All white space in the document, regardless of where it appears, must
>be passed through to the application under all circumstances. One
>twist on this - line-end sequences (CR, LF, CRLF) are all normalized
>to a single LF.
You must be referring only to content. Per (3.3), whitespace
in attribute values is also subject to normalization.
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 1 20:05:00 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (was Re: HELP ME PLEASE ...)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980801125939.0090f5e0@mediom.qc.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980801190510.84f75c5c@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 12:59 01/08/98 -0400, Eric Riblair re-posted
[... stack trace/error-log deleted ...]
Please do not repost messages - and certainly not at near-daily intervals.
There is a large readership of this list and if you don't get help from
your first message, reposting isn't going to help (it will simply annoy
most people).
Two points:
- you have crossposted to 3 other lists both times. This is regarded as
poor etiquette and makes it even less likely that you will get help from
either list.
- it is extremely difficult to diagnose many problems over the 'Net.
Unless it's immediately obvious what is wrong (i.e. it's a common mistake
or someone has seen it already) it probably depends on your precise
environment.
P.
We sympathise with these types of problem - we all have them.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Sat Aug 1 21:39:20 1998
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: XML Developers' Conference, August 20-21
Message-ID: <199808011936.MAA26741@boethius.eng.sun.com>
A two-day technical conference for XML, XSL, and XLL developers will
be held Thursday and Friday, August 20 and 21, in Montreal, Canada.
Cosponsored by the Graphic Communications Association (GCA) and the
Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information Standards
(OASIS), the XML Developers' Conference extends the highly successful
series of "XML Developers' Days," which began at the International World
Wide Web conference in 1997 and became an independent biannual event
last August.
Like the previous events, this UnConference(tm) resists the
bigger-is-better trend of recent years and maintains the concept of a
focused, single-track event featuring just the very best presentations
from the cream of XML geekdom. This is a conference by developers,
for developers, in a locale noted for its French-Canadian culture,
great food, and low prices. If you come wearing a suit we won't
actually turn you away, but we don't need your business so badly that
we're willing to lower the level of discourse.
This time the presentations include up-to-the-minute in-depth
briefings on XML support from Microsoft, Netscape, and Sun;
demonstrations of XML/XSL software; XML applications for RDF and SMIL;
and presentations on XML schemas, XLink, architectural forms
processing, and the use of XML in knowledge management. The
presenters include six members of the W3C XML Working Group that
produced the XML specification, and the conference is led by Jon
Bosak, Chairman of the W3C XML WG. See the complete conference
schedule at
http://www.gca.org/conf/xmldev98/
The XML Developers' Conference immediately follows the GCA
Metastructures 1998 Conference in the same location, Le Centre
Sheraton in Montreal, August 18-19. The Metastructures Conference is
the premiere annual event for those interested in the technical side
of XML-based information management, including use of the emerging XLL
specification for advanced hyperlinking. For complete information on
the Metastructures Conference, see
http://www.gca.org/conf/meta98/
A special rate is available for those wishing to attend both
conferences. The Metastructures Conference is preceded on August 17
by a day of tutorials on architectural forms, XML, XSL, XLL, DSSSL,
and SMIL, so if you're not up to attending the XML Developers'
Conference right now, you will be after taking the appropriate
tutorial!
If you are seriously interested in the XML family of standards, here's
your chance to get the very latest news on industry support for XML
technologies, hear from the people at the center of this
next-generation infrastructure for the Web, and share information and
opinions with people like yourself at the forefront of the XML
movement. Be there!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Bosak, Online Information Technology Architect, Sun Microsystems
901 San Antonio Road, MPK17-101, Palo Alto, California 94303
ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34/WG4::NCITS V1::OASIS::W3C XML WG::W3C XSL WG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is earlier than we think. -- Vannevar Bush
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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From eric at w3.org Sun Aug 2 07:09:11 1998
From: eric at w3.org (Eric Prud'hommeaux)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: SAX: ignorable whitespace question
Message-ID:
Should "abcd#20$20efgh" be reported as:
characters("abcd#20#20efgh")
characters("abcd#20efgh")
characters("abcd") ignorableWhitespace(#20#20) characters("efgh")
characters("abcd") ignorableWhitespace(#20) characters("efgh")
Also, is there a more appropriate forum for this sort of question?
-eric
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 2 11:03:11 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:20 2004
Subject: SAX: ignorable whitespace question
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980802100323.7a2fc5b2@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 01:08 02/08/98 -0400, Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote:
>Should "abcd#20$20efgh" be reported as:
> characters("abcd#20#20efgh")
> characters("abcd#20efgh")
> characters("abcd") ignorableWhitespace(#20#20) characters("efgh")
> characters("abcd") ignorableWhitespace(#20) characters("efgh")
I suspect that your question isn't sufficiently clearly phrased for a clear
answer. SAX needs to be read in conjunction with the XML RECommendation.
The concept of ignorable whitespace depends on what DTD information is
provided.
>
>Also, is there a more appropriate forum for this sort of question?
XML-DEV (not DML) is where most people who are interested in SAX will look
to discuss it at present. As SAX becomes more integrated into XML tools
then there may well be introductory tutorials on how to use SAX and what
SAX does and does not do. In the present case I suspect you should (a) read
the SAX documentation carefully (b) write some simple test code to find out
exactly what some common SAX implementations *do*. Create some test
documents with and without DTDs and feed them to SAX running under your
test code. If you then find the results appear to violate the
documentation, or vary between implementations, I am sure people would be
interested and make useful comments.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 2 11:25:14 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: SAX: ignorable whitespace question
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980802102459.7a2fe062@pop3.demon.co.uk>
I proably confused you with my previous answer... I was replying to your
question about which forum to ask questions on.
At 01:08 02/08/98 -0400, Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote:
>Should "abcd#20$20efgh" be reported as:
Assuming this is in element content (e.g. abcd efgh
and means "abcd efgh", then it is passed without change, using
characters(). Ignorable whitespace occurs between elements and not inside
character strings. XML (unlike HTML) does not normalise character content
and all characters that are not markup are passed to the application.
Ignorable whitespace is a device that SAX provides to help the application
decide what action it may be able to take. If you are writing a SAX-based
application you will need to understand this concept.
P
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From eric at w3.org Sun Aug 2 18:40:21 1998
From: eric at w3.org (Eric Prud'hommeaux)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: SAX: ignorable whitespace question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980802102459.7a2fe062@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID:
On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> XML (unlike HTML) does not normalise character content
> and all characters that are not markup are passed to the application.
> Ignorable whitespace is a device that SAX provides to help the application
> decide what action it may be able to take. If you are writing a SAX-based
> application you will need to understand this concept.
Oops, I was reading the XML spec without casting away a couple of HTML
assuptions. Thank you.
I'm writing a parser (in perl) now and wasn't sure I should take the
actions of Microstar's SAX driver as gospel. Admittedly, I've been
lazy about testing other implementations, but I was hoping for an
authoritative answer rather than an empirical study.
I've also crawled around Microstar's and Megginson's web spaces
looking for the SAX spec or at least a whitepaper. Do you have a
pointer?
> At 01:08 02/08/98 -0400, Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote:
> >Should "abcd#20$20efgh" be reported as:
>
> Assuming this is in element content (e.g. abcd efgh
> and means "abcd efgh", then it is passed without change, using
> characters(). Ignorable whitespace occurs between elements and not inside
> character strings.
In that regard, it would seem that text is handled differently from
system identifiers and attribute values.
How about leading and trailing whitespace, or tags with just
whitespace? For example, is "some text\r\n\t" reported
completely as characters and not split into characters("some text")
and ignorable("\r\n\t")? Is the whitespace in "\n \n"
ignorable? I also assume from the XML spec that SAX is acting in the
role of XML processor and must translate \r's so it would really be
characters(" some text\n\t").
Current (apparently overzealous) algorythm:
#####
# reportText - break up ignorable whitespace from characters
sub reportText {
my $self = shift;
my $characters = shift;
# fold \r\n and \r into \n - XML:2.11
$characters =~ s/\r\n/\n/g;
$characters =~ tr/\r/\n/g;
if ($characters =~ m/\A(\s+)/) { # leading ignorables
$self->ignorableWhitespace($&);
$characters = $';
}
while ($characters =~ m/(\s{2,})/) { # nested ignorables
$self->characters($`) if ($` ne '');
$self->ignorableWhitespace($&) if ($& ne '');
$characters = $';
}
if ($characters =~ m/(\s+)\Z/) { # trailing ignorables
$self->characters($`) if ($` ne '');
$self->ignorableWhitespace($&) if ($& ne '');
}
}
Algorythm Lite:
sub reportText {
my $self = shift;
my $characters = shift;
# fold \r\n and \r into \n - XML:2.11
$characters =~ s/\r\n/\n/g;
$characters =~ tr/\r/\n/g;
if ($characters =~ m/\S/) { # any non-white space?
$self->characters($characters);
} else {
$self->ignorableWhitespace($&);
}
}
-eric
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Sun Aug 2 20:03:41 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: XSchema: email problems
Message-ID:
If anyone attempted to send me private email regarding XSchema on Friday,
Saturday, or this morning, please resend it to simonstl@ibm.net. The
Microsoft Network appears to be losing most of my messages; some test messages
I sent bounced, while others disappeared without a trace.
I'll have a new primary address in about a month anyway.
Thanks for your cooperation and your help,
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Mon Aug 3 04:12:05 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: SAX: ignorable whitespace question
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <199808030215.AA01867@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
On Sun, 2 Aug 1998, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> XML (unlike HTML) does not normalise character content
> and all characters that are not markup are passed to the application.
> Ignorable whitespace is a device that SAX provides to help the application
> decide what action it may be able to take. If you are writing a SAX-based
> application you will need to understand this concept.
I think that CR, LF, or CR+LF are always normalized into LF.
Eric Prud'hommeaux wrote:
> In that regard, it would seem that text is handled differently from
> system identifiers and attribute values.
As for attribute values, we do have different normalization. As
for systems identifiers, I do not understand your point.
> How about leading and trailing whitespace, or tags with just
> whitespace? For example, is "some text\r\n\t" reported
> completely as characters and not split into characters("some text")
> and ignorable("\r\n\t")?
Right. They are not split.
>Is the whitespace in "\n \n"
> ignorable?
If 1) the DTD is available, 2) the element type t1 has an element content, and
3) an XML processor uses the DTD to distinguish element content and mixed content,
then the whitespace in is ignorable.
>I also assume from the XML spec that SAX is acting in the
> role of XML processor and must translate \r's so it would really be
> characters(" some text\n\t").
Quite.
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From bock at informatik.uni-bremen.de Mon Aug 3 10:48:21 1998
From: bock at informatik.uni-bremen.de (Matthias Bock)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: xml-dev Digest V1 #62
In-Reply-To: owner-xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk's message of "Tue, 14 Jul 1998 02:00:11 +0100"
References:
Message-ID: <1phfzue9jv.fsf@lenina.informatik.uni-bremen.de>
bla
--
Dipl. inform. Matthias Bock
Chrystal Software http://www.chrystal.com
tel: 0421 4366093 fax: 0421 4366083
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From Joel.Jeffery at drake.co.uk Mon Aug 3 16:01:21 1998
From: Joel.Jeffery at drake.co.uk (Joel Jeffery)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Open Software Description (OSD) and Microsoft Internet Compondent
Download (MSICD) DTD Files
Message-ID:
Hi.
I'm having severe difficulties trying to track down these two files.
They're not where they should be:
http://www.microsoft.com/standards/osd/osd.dtd
http://www.microsoft.com/standards/osd/msicd.dtd
I apologise if I'm mailing the wrong group, but I've been banging my
head against the wall trying to uncover some decent documentation for
OSD and MSCID, but the key bits (the dtds) are nowhere to be found.
Many thanks in advance,
joel
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From simpson at polaris.net Mon Aug 3 16:41:20 1998
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Open Software Description (OSD) and Microsoft Internet
Compondent Download (MSICD) DTD Files
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980803103519.0069855c@polaris.net>
At 03:01 PM 8/3/98 +0100, Joel Jeffery wrote:
>I'm having severe difficulties trying to track down these two files.
>They're not where they should be:
>http://www.microsoft.com/standards/osd/osd.dtd
Now at:
http://www.eu.microsoft.com/standards/osd/default.asp#appa
>http://www.microsoft.com/standards/osd/msicd.dtd
Don't know about this one; sorry.
John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor,
simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be.
| -- "Kin" Hubbard
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From wchang at nist.gov Mon Aug 3 17:51:07 1998
From: wchang at nist.gov (Wo Chang, x3439)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: What SAXDOM drivers available ?
Message-ID: <199808031549.LAA02141@pion.ncsl.nist.gov>
Can anyone tells me what other SAXDOM (or FREEDOM) drivers
available other than MSXML and AElfred?
Thanks in advanced!
--Wo
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From jctsai at fedex.com Mon Aug 3 18:52:53 1998
From: jctsai at fedex.com (January Tsai)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: What SAXDOM drivers available ?
Message-ID: <199808031652.AA29175@gateway.fedex.com>
Try www.sil.org/sgml/sgml.html and go to XML tools and applications.
There are lots of free XML parsers:
DXP from DataChannel,
Alpha from IBM,
...
-jt
Can anyone tells me what other SAXDOM (or FREEDOM) drivers
available other than MSXML and AElfred?
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 3 19:30:23 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
Message-ID: <35C5F396.5DAE140F@locke.ccil.org>
(There is nothing official about this: it is what I glean from
reading the XML recommendation plus applying reason and common sense.)
NVP = non-validating conforming parser(s). Other capitalized terms
are used as in RFC 2119.
1. An NVP MUST check the document entity for well-formedness and
report any violations.
2. An NVP MAY check external entities (including the external DTD
subset, external parsed entities, and external parameter entities) for
well-formedness, and if it does so, MUST report any violations.
3. An NVP MUST process certain attribute list and entity declarations,
and use them to normalize attribute values, include the replacement
text of internal entities, and supply default attribute values.
4. An NVP MAY process attribute list and entity declarations that
appear in external entities (including the external DTD subset and
external parameter entities).
5. An NVP MUST NOT process attribute list and entity declarations that
logically follow references to any parameter entities that have not
been read by the NVP. As usual, everything in the external
DTD subset logically follows everything in the internal DTD subset.
6. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference is made to an
undeclared entity, if the entity was declared in some external entity.
7. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference is made to an
unparsed entity, if the entity was declared in some external entity.
8. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if an entity refers to itself
directly or indirectly, if either the entity or some other part
of the entity circle was declared in some external entity.
9. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference to an external
entity is made in an attribute value, if the entity was declared
in some external entity.
10. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference to an entity
(other than a parameter entity) is made within the DTD, if the
entity was declared in some external entity.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 3 19:32:00 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
Message-ID: <35C5F3A7.9B560726@locke.ccil.org>
(There is nothing official about this: it is what I glean from
reading the XML recommendation plus applying reason and common sense.)
NVP = non-validating conforming parser(s). Other capitalized terms
are used as in RFC 2119.
1. An NVP MUST check the document entity for well-formedness and
report any violations.
2. An NVP MAY check external entities (including the external DTD
subset, external parsed entities, and external parameter entities) for
well-formedness, and if it does so, MUST report any violations.
3. An NVP MUST process certain attribute list and entity declarations,
and use them to normalize attribute values, include the replacement
text of internal entities, and supply default attribute values.
4. An NVP MAY process attribute list and entity declarations that
appear in external entities (including the external DTD subset and
external parameter entities).
5. An NVP MUST NOT process attribute list and entity declarations that
logically follow references to any parameter entities that have not
been read by the NVP. As usual, everything in the external
DTD subset logically follows everything in the internal DTD subset.
6. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference is made to an
undeclared entity, if the entity was declared in some external entity.
7. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference is made to an
unparsed entity, if the entity was declared in some external entity.
8. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if an entity refers to itself
directly or indirectly, if either the entity or some other part
of the entity circle was declared in some external entity.
9. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference to an external
entity is made in an attribute value, if the entity was declared
in some external entity.
10. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if a reference to an entity
(other than a parameter entity) is made within the DTD, if the
entity was declared in some external entity.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 3 19:35:50 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: XCatalog revised
Message-ID: <35C5F4BE.8B5C0018@locke.ccil.org>
See http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/XCatalog.html for the current
version of XCatalog. The next version will hopefully be an
Internet-Draft with full references.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon Aug 3 19:36:03 1998
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: API versioning in SAX
Message-ID: <5030300023653242000002L022*@MHS>
"No, because even parsers that support level 1 (the current level)
may vary in their behavior, because non-validating parsers can
produce different things (expand external parsed entities or not,
understand ATTLISTs or not, etc.) If your application depends on
these things, you need to be able to check whether the parser you
are using does so.
And I do believe that people will replace parsers, as smaller/faster/
better ones come out, in their applications. A major impetus of
Java is to avoid monolithic apps where the user is stuck with the
app exactly as packaged."
Just to play the devil's advocate, are you sure you are not creating a
technical solution to what everyone is more likely to solve with a
non-technical one? If I'm the administrator of my server or my workstation, and
I see a new SAX driver out there, wouldn't I just read the README before I even
downloaded it to make sure that its capable of doing what my current does (plus
more maybe?) I doubt very seriously I'd just download new drivers and try them
until one fails to fail, ya know? And, even if I did, the fact that it fails to
fail on the 3 apps I have now, doesn't mean it supports what I want to support
on app #4, so I'm going to just read the docs and see what it supports most
likely.
Also, once I know what the SAX driver can do, and know that it does what I
need, why would I want my application playing "20 Questions" every time I run
it, when I know what the answer is going to be every time? Why waste the time,
when the kind of situation that you envision might not even happen very often?
Have you really checked and seen how likely people are to blindly use new XML
driver software in such as way as to create the problem you've presented to be
solved?
----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 3 19:51:14 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: API versioning in SAX
References: <5030300023653242000002L022*@MHS>
Message-ID: <35C5F86E.533B915F@locke.ccil.org>
Dean Roddey scripsit:
> If I'm the administrator of my server or my workstation, and
> I see a new SAX driver out there, wouldn't I just read the README before I even
> downloaded it to make sure that its capable of doing what my current does (plus
> more maybe?)
The trouble is that these are subtle features. See the post I just
sent out, riddled with MUSTs and MAY NOTs. Of the 10 items mentioned,
compliant non-validating parsers can vary in 7 of them, which means
there are something like 2^7 classes of non-interchangeable (but still
compliant) parsers. The docs may not even be specific on these points.
Any SAX app that depends on any of those 7 features better have some
way of checking whether or not the SAX parser supports them, or else
uniformly rely on none of them.
> And, even if I did, the fact that it fails to
> fail on the 3 apps I have now, doesn't mean it supports what I want to support
> on app #4, so I'm going to just read the docs and see what it supports most
> likely.
I think this point is a red herring. Different SAX apps, due to their
different requirements, may need different parsers. It's either some
such inquiry mechanism as this, or else have every app keep a list
of "certified" parsers, and have each app writer spend time certifying
every old and new parser.
> Also, once I know what the SAX driver can do, and know that it does what I
> need, why would I want my application playing "20 Questions" every time I run
> it, when I know what the answer is going to be every time? Why waste the time,
> when the kind of situation that you envision might not even happen very often?
It's a cheap check. Call a getFeatures method, get an int back,
AND it with the feature bits you need, and do a numeric = comparison to
make sure they're all set. That's it. Then when you change SAX parsers
in future, your app will either work, or will break early with
an "Insufficiently flavorful SAX parser" error.
> Have you really checked and seen how likely people are to blindly use new XML
> driver software in such as way as to create the problem you've presented to be
> solved?
How can I? The whole area is so new....
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Mon Aug 3 19:54:13 1998
From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
Message-ID: <000801bdbf07$dc6c4000$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
>Other capitalized terms are used as in RFC 2119.
...>6. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if ...
I don't know offhand what RFC 2119 says on the matter, and I
haven't got time to look, but any set of rules that includes
the term "may not" is liable to be misinterpreted by half
its audience. When I am reviewing specifications, "may not"
always gets a thumbs down.
I don't much like "may" either. Everything is permitted
unless the specification prohibits it, a sentence whose main
verb is "may" therefore says nothing.
Mike Kay
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From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Mon Aug 3 20:00:00 1998
From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: API versioning in SAX
Message-ID: <000f01bdbf08$d031a540$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
If I'm the administrator of my server or my workstation, and
I see a new SAX driver out there, wouldn't I just read the
README ...
That's surely the whole point. The guy who writes the
application and the guy who chooses the parser are not the
same person, so the former wants to check at run-time that
the latter hasn't screwed him up.
Incidentally, the thing that's most likely to go wrong when
you switch parsers, in my experience, is that character data
is split up differently. Every time I use SAX, I forget that
the parser is allowed to hand me data one character at a
time if it chooses. Perhaps someone should write a SAX
parser that does just that, so I can test that my
application would cope with it.
Mike Kay
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Mon Aug 3 20:42:19 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: API versioning in SAX
Message-ID:
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Michael Kay wrote:
> the parser is allowed to hand me data one character at a
> time if it chooses. Perhaps someone should write a SAX
> parser that does just that, so I can test that my
> application would cope with it.
My as yet unreleased HXP parser could do that. It is a production
grammer based parser. On the lowest level it throws start and stop events
for each production in the XML spec. It does this right down to the type
of character. This means that the data event for each character is thrown
separately. I naturally planned on buffering these in my SAX driver, but
if it isn't that much trouble, I'll build in a mode to do this. :-)
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From colds at nwlink.com Mon Aug 3 21:38:17 1998
From: colds at nwlink.com (Chris Olds)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Do you understand XML namspaces?
Message-ID: <008d01bdbf16$16475040$dc59fcc6@albert.salsa.walldata.com>
Not so fast - there is a new Working Draft out, and when they said the
previous version "may be updated, replaced or obsoleted", they weren't
kidding!
http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-names was updated yesterday (August 2nd).
/cco
"I'd explain it to you, but I don't understand it yet!"
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 3 21:43:18 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:21 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
References: <000801bdbf07$dc6c4000$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35C612C4.E5210DF5@locke.ccil.org>
Michael Kay wrote:
> I don't know offhand what RFC 2119 says on the matter, and I
> haven't got time to look, but any set of rules that includes
> the term "may not" is liable to be misinterpreted by half
> its audience. When I am reviewing specifications, "may not"
> always gets a thumbs down.
*sigh* I do wish people wouldn't review things without reading
them. I happen to agree with you about MAY NOT, but that's
what RFC 2119 says. The RFC is about 600 words long, BTW, and
here's a link: http://www.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2119.txt .
> I don't much like "may" either. Everything is permitted
> unless the specification prohibits it, a sentence whose main
> verb is "may" therefore says nothing.
*Everything*? So if a specification for a C compiler doesn't
*say* that compiling a strictly conforming program does *not*
make demons fly out of your nose, then the compiler is allowed
to do that?
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Mon Aug 3 21:46:28 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
In-Reply-To: <35C5F396.5DAE140F@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, John Cowan wrote:
> (There is nothing official about this: it is what I glean from
> reading the XML recommendation plus applying reason and common sense.)
> NVP = non-validating conforming parser(s). Other capitalized terms
> are used as in RFC 2119.
I am in the middle of implementing all this stuff in my HXP parser
right now and have been groveling through the spec sorting out many of
these issues, so this is very helpfull.
> 1. An NVP MUST check the document entity for well-formedness and
> report any violations.
Meaning, it MUST check ALL the well formedness constraints, and
MAY check validity constraints.
> 3. An NVP MUST process certain attribute list and entity declarations,
> and use them to normalize attribute values, include the replacement
> text of internal entities, and supply default attribute values.
default attribute values...mmm...that is what I am coding today
:-) If an attribute is REQUIRED or IMPLIED, an NVP doesn't have to touch
it or deal with it at all. Otherwise an NVP must check if there is a
value for an attribute and if not, include the default value. If the
attribute is FIXED, an NVP is not required to check if the instance value
matches the declared value because that is a validity constraint.
This means that if you supply an instance value for a FIXED attribute,
where that instance differs from the declared fixed value, that an NVP
MAY (if it supports the Fixed Attribute Default VC) or MAY NOT supply the
correct declared value for this attribute.
> 5. An NVP MUST NOT process attribute list and entity declarations that
> logically follow references to any parameter entities that have not
> been read by the NVP. As usual, everything in the external
> DTD subset logically follows everything in the internal DTD subset.
Feed the following document to an NVP which doesn't read any external
entities:
]>
A &yy; B &zz; C
What should it print out? Currently HXP sees the reference to %xx; while
processing yy, realizes this has not been read, and from that moment on
will no longer process any entity declarations, including those of yy and
zz. It then throws a not well formed exception in Test content because
&yy; has not been declared. When I feed this to AElfred (file.ent doesn't
actually exist), it gives me "A 3 B 1 3 4 C", which I think must be
a bug. XP throws an exception "parameter entity reference in entity value
in internal subset", which means that it processed the declaration
(correctly?), the thing here is the table in section 4.4 of the spec
says that PE's are not recognized in content, so I thought XP would have
passed right over this?
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Mon Aug 3 22:00:00 1998
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Do you understand XML namspaces?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 03 Aug 1998 12:36:57 PDT."
<008d01bdbf16$16475040$dc59fcc6@albert.salsa.walldata.com>
Message-ID: <199808031958.VAA21008@chimay.loria.fr>
colds@nwlink.com said:
] http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-names was updated yesterday (August 2nd).
Just one thing to say : GASP !!!
WD-xml-names-19980802 said:
] The namespace prefix, unless it is xml or xmlns, must have been
] declared in a namespace declaration.
Hum !!! And what about the following example (15 lines after within the WD) :
...strange. The XML NS for html is declared after
Message-ID: <35C61A96.1DE8E8D7@locke.ccil.org>
Chris Hubick wrote:
> Meaning, it MUST check ALL the well formedness constraints, and
> MAY check validity constraints.
Correct.
> default attribute values...mmm...that is what I am coding today
> :-) If an attribute is REQUIRED or IMPLIED, an NVP doesn't have to touch
> it or deal with it at all. Otherwise an NVP must check if there is a
> value for an attribute and if not, include the default value. If the
> attribute is FIXED, an NVP is not required to check if the instance value
> matches the declared value because that is a validity constraint.
So far so good.
> This means that if you supply an instance value for a FIXED attribute,
> where that instance differs from the declared fixed value, that an NVP
> MAY (if it supports the Fixed Attribute Default VC) or MAY NOT supply the
> correct declared value for this attribute.
That's not clear. It is an error for the document to supply a value
other than the FIXED one, so the parser may return the FIXED value,
or the application's value, or make demons fly out of your nose.
(See previous posting, or comp.std.c++).
> > 5. An NVP MUST NOT process attribute list and entity declarations that
> > logically follow references to any parameter entities that have not
> > been read by the NVP. As usual, everything in the external
> > DTD subset logically follows everything in the internal DTD subset.
>
> Feed the following document to an NVP which doesn't read any external
> entities:
>
>
>
>
> ]>
> A &yy; B &zz; C
This document is not WF, and every parser should detect it (but
some do not), to wit: parameter entity references in the internal
subset can only come between declarations, not within one.
See clause 2.8, the WF constraint called "PEs in Internal Subset".
If you move the DTD into the external subset, then the result
is unclear to me. I suspect that any parser that reads the
external subset is compelled to read external parameter entities
as well, so that the result is
A 2 [whatever] 3 B 1 2 [whatever] 3 4 C
> When I feed this to AElfred (file.ent doesn't
> actually exist), it gives me "A 3 B 1 3 4 C", which I think must be
> a bug.
It's a bug in that Aelfred should throw an error.
> XP throws an exception "parameter entity reference in entity value
> in internal subset", which means that it processed the declaration
> (correctly?)
That is the correct action.
> the thing here is the table in section 4.4 of the spec
> says that PE's are not recognized in content, so I thought XP would have
> passed right over this?
Entity values are not the same thing as "content", which means
literally the stuff within elements. Parameter entity references
are allowed within (internal) entity values, general or parameter,
but only if the entities in question are defined within the
external subset. See clause 4.4.5. (Note that the following
example is in error: "&YN;" should read "%YN;".) The table in
4.4 repays careful study.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From bandar at WellsFargo.COM Mon Aug 3 22:22:16 1998
From: bandar at WellsFargo.COM (bandar@WellsFargo.COM)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <695ED9BA149FD1118C6C0001FA7E6AF3D60A48@xcem-casfo-03.wellsfargo.com>
unsubscribe me
-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kay [mailto:M.H.Kay@eng.icl.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, August 03, 1998 10:55 AM
To: John Cowan; XML Dev
Subject: Re: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
>Other capitalized terms are used as in RFC 2119.
...>6. An NVP MAY NOT signal an error if ...
I don't know offhand what RFC 2119 says on the matter, and I
haven't got time to look, but any set of rules that includes
the term "may not" is liable to be misinterpreted by half
its audience. When I am reviewing specifications, "may not"
always gets a thumbs down.
I don't much like "may" either. Everything is permitted
unless the specification prohibits it, a sentence whose main
verb is "may" therefore says nothing.
Mike Kay
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From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Mon Aug 3 22:39:14 1998
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Revised namespaces draft available
Message-ID: <199808032036.NAA27212@boethius.eng.sun.com>
A major revision of the namespaces draft is now publicly available at
http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-names
This draft incorporates a new attribute-based syntax for namespace
declarations as well as new mechanisms for defaulting and scoping.
The XML Working Group actively solicits feedback from early
implementors of the revised draft and has set up a special mailing
list to gather input for an editorial team that will review early
implementation experiences. See the section titled "Status of this
Document" near the beginning of the WD for details.
Jon Bosak
Chairman, W3C XML WG
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From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 3 22:59:23 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980803135751.00bfebe0@207.34.179.21>
At 01:29 PM 8/3/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>(There is nothing official about this: it is what I glean from
>reading the XML recommendation plus applying reason and common sense.)
>NVP = non-validating conforming parser(s). Other capitalized terms
>are used as in RFC 2119.
FWIW, I agree with John's write-up, except that the phrase MAY NOT
is kind of misleading. The spec says that an NVP may fail to detect
certain kinds of entity-related sins in the case that the entity
was declared where the processor wasn't looking and wasn't required
to look... the phrase MAY NOT suggests that the processor is forbidden
to do certain things. -Tim
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Mon Aug 3 23:07:15 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Non-Validating XML Parsers: Requirements
In-Reply-To: <35C61A96.1DE8E8D7@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, John Cowan wrote:
> > This means that if you supply an instance value for a FIXED attribute,
> > where that instance differs from the declared fixed value, that an NVP
> > MAY (if it supports the Fixed Attribute Default VC) or MAY NOT supply the
> > correct declared value for this attribute.
>
> That's not clear. It is an error for the document to supply a value
> other than the FIXED one, so the parser may return the FIXED value,
> or the application's value, or make demons fly out of your nose.
> (See previous posting, or comp.std.c++).
Yes, it should throw an error if it understands the
validity constraint, but if it doesn't the behaviour is undeterminded.
> > >
> >
> >
> > ]>
> > A &yy; B &zz; C
>
> This document is not WF, and every parser should detect it (but
> some do not), to wit: parameter entity references in the internal
> subset can only come between declarations, not within one.
> See clause 2.8, the WF constraint called "PEs in Internal Subset".
I thought this document was well formed, I read "PEs in Internal
Subset" to mean that you can't have stuff like:
but you can have:
'>
%xx;
]>
because the grammer doesn't allow the PEReferences where they occur in the
first example (within declarations):
[48] cp ::= (Name | choice | seq) ('?' | '*' | '+')?
but it does in the second (where declarations occur):
[28] doctypedecl ::= '
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980803231152.2197b826@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 19:01 03/08/98 +0100, Michael Kay wrote:
>If I'm the administrator of my server or my workstation, and
>I see a new SAX driver out there, wouldn't I just read the
>README ...
>
>That's surely the whole point. The guy who writes the
>application and the guy who chooses the parser are not the
>same person, so the former wants to check at run-time that
>the latter hasn't screwed him up.
The current JUMBO2 has an option to load any SAX-based parser from a menu
button, so you can experiment in a fairly interactive manner. At this stage
of the game I'd suggest that application writers try more than one parser
to make sure that consistent results are being generated from SAX. And if
different parsers give different results it might be worth reporting those
here in case the authors were unaware. In any case a systematic comparison
of any such differences between parsers would be a public service :-)
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 4 00:45:21 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Revised namespaces draft available
In-Reply-To: <199808032036.NAA27212@boethius.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980803233224.2197a11c@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 13:36 03/08/98 -0700, Jon Bosak wrote:
>A major revision of the namespaces draft is now publicly available at
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xml-names
>
>This draft incorporates a new attribute-based syntax for namespace
>declarations as well as new mechanisms for defaulting and scoping.
>The XML Working Group actively solicits feedback from early
>implementors of the revised draft and has set up a special mailing
>list to gather input for an editorial team that will review early
>implementation experiences. See the section titled "Status of this
>Document" near the beginning of the WD for details.
>
>Jon Bosak
>Chairman, W3C XML WG
Many thanks for posting this, Jon,
I have been privileged to observe process by which this spec was produced and
when it was near completion made an offer to the XML-WG that XML-DEV might
be able to assist in informally helping early implementations of the spec.
I append what I wrote (about a week ago]:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
The XML-WG is releasing the next draft of XML-names and as this is of
particular interest to XML-DEV members, I'll try to set the scene. As you
will recall, XML-DEV has no formal standing in the W3C process but
unofficially its presence has been of value to the process. I suggested on
the XML-SIG list that XML-DEV could have a useful role to play in helping
the active development of namespace implementations and received broad
agreement to post this message.
[NOTE: the W3C has a number of Activities, of which XML is one (others are
DOM, RDF, P3P, MathML, etc.). Each has a chair and editorial board/team
and/or WGs which produce WDs, and PRs. The XML-WG also oversees the
XML-names development (which is central to several other activities). The
XML-WG has chosen to have a SIG of about 100 members to which many problems
are referred for discussion. The deliberations of the XML-WG and XML-SIG
are confidential to W3C members and invited experts (which includes me and
several other members of XML-DEV).]
The XML-WG, XML-SIG and other W3C groups have spent (literally) thousands
of e-mails discussing XML-names. It has turned out to be much more
challenging than was originally anticipated. I have been privileged to see
some of these discussions and I believe the people involved have shown
great commitment and technical ability.
Fairly recently it was decided to address the whole namespace problem (not
just the deliberately limited version of 1998-05). The questions of
scoping, global attributes and many other features have been very
challenging but are now included in the draft. I ask you to take on trust
that what is presented is the product of a huge amount of labour by
committed people.
You may feel that it could have been done otherwise, but I suggest that we
don't pursue those thoughts but try to make the current draft work. I am
very confident that *a* good solution has been reached. With this tool we
shall be able to do some remarkable things. When/if we hit problems the WG
will pick them up, and will take a view as to whether the spec needs any
revision. There will be no need (or point) in lobbying them.
As with other XML-DEV activities we are doing this as an experiment and
because it's worth doing. It may or may not lead to protocols, software or
other resources. It will almost certainly be a good idea to start small and
expand, just as with SAX and XSchema. I'd suggest that we might:
- collate experience from those who have actually implemented namespaces
(somewhere in the 1997..1998-05 period). For example I discovered while
browsing XML4J today that it has considerable namespace support, and I'm
sure there are other tools (I'm happy to make the latest JUMBO2 available
shortly - it has a simple namespace approach).
- collate DTDs which have been developed to be namespace-aware. These will
be essential for testing systems later. Examples of (I think)
single-namespace DTDs include:
- XSchema
- MathML
- IBTWSH
- XML-data (if simplified to primitives)
we can appeal for other examples (for example, I'd be happy to contribute
VHG.dtd)
- collect documents which adhere to these DTDs.
As you can see I am assuming that DTDs (or schemas) are likely to be
important for namespaces. I think we should be wary of addressing
"well-formed tag soup" at this stage - that can come later, if at all. The
issues that we'll need to consider include:
- how can we manage prefixed and non-prefixed versions of a DTD? With and
without validation.
- how can we combine more than one DTD? With and without validation.
There are also questions of the interfaces to namespace-aware:
- elements
- attributes
- PIs
In particular the XML and XLL specs define a number of XML:* attributes. At
what stage should these be processed? Should there be a special module for
processing xml-reserved elements (if any) and attributes? At what stage
should software need to know the identity of the prefix, the URI, etc.
Should we define a Name class/interface?
These are challenging enough. Beyond that we have the questions of scoping
- how to implement it, what its semantics are, how to treat default and
global scopes. I'd suggest we take a day or two to think about this before
commenting, and that we may be wise to take the simplest issues first. It
won't help if our discussion is so broad that we get lost.
This is an issue of great interest to W3C members and non-members alike.
Offers of help will be extremely welcome, but don't be disappointed if
other solutions or groups appear to be more appropriate for a particular
problem.
P.
I am really looking forward to seeing this move forward. It will require
patience and forbearance. We are moving into an area where semantics and
ontology are important and this is why it is so tough, but exciting. In
essence we are developing the first global mechanism for supporting
ontology and if we can crack that we can do anything...
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Tue Aug 4 00:45:57 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: XSchema Spec - XSchema Element (Sections 2.0 and 2.1), Draft 6
Message-ID:
After an hour with the namespace draft, this is where I'm at. If I'm wildly
dead wrong, as is often the case when I'm dealing with namespaces, please let
me know. The FIXED declaration for the xmlns attribute and the removal of
prefixes from subelements appear to be the main issues. I could change the
attribute to xmlns:XSC and return the prefixes if that seems preferable. (I'm
planning on overriding it again in the Doc element, and allowing others to
override it in the More element, if that's helpful.
Let me know! Being wrong can be fun too.
As always, a prettier HTML version of this will be posted shortly at
http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xschema.
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
2.0 XSchema Syntax
This section describes the XSchema document syntax. The XSchema document is an
XML document containing a single XSchema element in which information
describing the schema is nested. The XSchema element must be preceded by an
XML declaration and may be preceded by other declarations, comments, and
processing instructions.
2.1 The XSchema Element
The XSchema element is the root element for all XSchema documents. The
declaration for the XSchema element is:
The XSchema element contains other elements describing the XSchema and
building a schema. These elements are described in later sections of this
specification. The XSchema element may also contain other XSchema elements
nested inside of it. This nesting of XSchema elements improves reusability of
XSchemas by allowing the combination of multiple XSchemas inside of a single
XSchema framework. It also allows finer-grained control over documentation for
subsections of an XSchema.
The XSchema element's attributes include information about the namespace used
by XSchema, the version of the XSchema specification used, and information
about the type of documents described by the XSchema.
The XSchema namespace is fixed with the xmlns attribute to correspond with the
8/2/98 working draft of Namespaces in XML.
Information about the XSchema specification version used to create this
XSchema, contained in the Version attribute, is critical to proper handling of
documents should the specification be updated in the future. This
specification is identified as version 1.0. Future major and minor versions of
the XSchema specification should identify themselves differently. No provision
is made at this time for nesting XSchemas using different versions of the
specification under a parent XSchema element.
The MimeType and FileExtension attributes are used to provide a suggested MIME
(Multipurpose Internet Mail Extensions) Content-type and file extension for
documents created using a particular XSchema. Applications may use this
information to identify XML document types. A document library that generates
XML documents dynamically could assign file extensions and MIME types based on
the XSchema used.
Applications using this information should use the values stored in the first
XSchema encountered during processing. For instance, if an XSchema includes
another nested XSchema, the values for the MimeType and FileExtension
attributes of the root XSchema should be used.
By default, most XML documents are assumed to have a MIME type of
application/xml, as described in "XML Media Types" by E.J. Whitehead and
Murata Makoto. Developers who need different MIME types for documents created
using particular XSchemas may register other MIME types with the IETF, as
described in RFC 1590, or use the 'x-' prefix syntax for subtypes, as
described in RFC 1521.
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Aug 4 01:49:06 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <016701bdbf38$09bee0a0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Does XSchema handle 'redefinition' of schema either entirely or partially?
I would like to see each XLF log source redefine their schema from time to
time to reflect changes. XSchema can handle this, it would be great.
Don Park
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Tue Aug 4 01:52:09 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: External DTD Grammar
Message-ID:
The following is an attempt to construct BNF productions for XML in the
internal and external DTD subsets. These productions should reflect what
can occur in an XML file before any processing has occured. Basically I
am trying to figure out, in a well formed XML document, what can an XML
processor encounter while parsing any given section/production of
document. So I just went through the productions and added PEReferences
wherever one might occur (all over the place). I think the whitespace
appended to PE's when included (sec 4.4.8) helps make this a little
easier. As I understand it, a parser does NOT have to deal with:
%endecls; % example 'test'>
This is not well formed, right? (please say yes)
How do other parsers deal with this? A PEReference preprocessor? A
preprocessor is hard, because what your preprocessing depends on the
results of the actual processing that would occur after the preprocessor
finished.
The following represent productions in the XML specification which need to
be changed to meet this goal.
I don't really know what I am doing here, I just threw this together in
5 minutes and I am doing it to generate feedback.
So am I completely off my rocker?
Help and guidance much appreciated, thanks!
----------------------
Internal DTD Subset:
[9] EntityValue ::= '"' ([^%&"] | Reference)* '"' | "'" ([^%&'] | Reference)* "'"
External DTD subset:
[9] EntityValue ::= '"' ([^%&"] | PEReference | Reference)* '"' | "'" ([^%&'] | PEReference | Reference)* "'"
[10] AttValue ::= '"' ([^<&"] | Reference | PEReference)* '"' | "'" ([^<&'] | Reference | PEReference)* "'"
[45] elementdecl ::= ''
[46] contentspec ::= 'EMPTY' | 'ANY' | Mixed | children | PEReference
[47] children ::= (choice | seq | PEReference) ('?' | '*' | '+')?
[48] cp ::= (Name | choice | seq | PEReference) ('?' | '*' | '+')?
[52] AttlistDecl ::= ''
[53] AttDef ::= S (Name | PEReference) S AttType S DefaultDecl
[54] AttType ::= StringType | TokenizedType | EnumeratedType | PEReference
[55] StringType ::= 'CDATA' | PEReference
[56] TokenizedType ::= 'ID' | 'IDREF' | 'IDREFS' | 'ENTITY' | 'ENTITIES' | 'NMTOKEN' | NMTOKENS' | PEReference
[57] EnumeratedType ::= NotationType | Enumeration | PEReference
[58] NotationType ::= ('NOTATION' | PEReference) S '(' S? (Name | PEReference) (S? '|' S? (Name | PEReference))* S? ')'
[59] Enumeration ::= '(' S? (Nmtoken | PEReference) (S? '|' S? (Nmtoken | PEReference))* S? ')'
[60] DefaultDecl ::= '#REQUIRED' | '#IMPLIED' | PEReference | (('#FIXED' S)? AttValue)
[71] GEDecl ::= ''
[72] PEDecl ::= ''
[73] EntityDef ::= EntityValue | PEReference | (ExternalID NDataDecl?)
[74] PEDef ::= EntityValue | ExternalID | PEReference
[75] ExternalID ::= ('SYSTEM' | PEReference) S (SystemLiteral | PEReference) | ('PUBLIC' | PEReference) S (PubidLiteral | PEReference) S (SystemLiteral | PEReference)
[76] NDataDecl ::= S ('NDATA' | PEReference) S (Name | PEReference)
[82] NotationDecl ::= ''
[83] PublicID ::= ('PUBLIC' | PEReference) S (PubidLiteral | PEReference)
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Tue Aug 4 04:13:57 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Model group ambiguities
In-Reply-To: <000401bdba4f$a583c160$e46118cb@caleb>
Message-ID: <199808040217.AA01880@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
James K. Tauber wrote:
> My understanding was that SGML content models have to be deterministic to
> start with in order to avoid problems with automatic reduction to DFAs
> because of and groups, etc.
Prof. Anne Brugemann-Klein strongly believes that this restriction
is an extremely bad idea. I would strongly recommend full support of
non-deterministic content models. Otherwise, DTD transformation will become
impossible, since translated DTD's cannot always be captured by deterministic
content models.
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From amitr at abinfosys.com Tue Aug 4 04:52:20 1998
From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:22 2004
Subject: Where and how to place XSL processor for formatting of ASP form handler generated XML response?
Message-ID: <00b101bdbf53$2c1b0140$0101a8c0@server.abinfosys.com>
Hello,
ENVIRONMENT :-
* Scripting Environment :- ASP
* Client Briowser :- IE 4.01
* XSL processor :- MSXSL
* Web Server :- IIS 4.0
* Database Server :- SQL Server 6.5
1) Where do I place the MSXSL(XSL processor) for it to trap a response
(an XML steam) generated by an ASP form handler after form submission?
2) What scripting event and code would I use with the MSXSL to trap the
XML response from the form handler?
SCENARIO DESCRIPTION :-
* I have a default.asp file which will generate a FORM for user input.
* On Submission an ASP form handler = test.asp is invoked.
Code snippet for default.asp is :-
From jjc at jclark.com Tue Aug 4 07:53:12 1998
From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: Namespaces in 20 lines
Message-ID: <35C69EB5.B4462AD0@jclark.com>
At first glance the new namespace draft might appear rather complicated,
but actually it is really easy to implement. Assuming you have a
non-namespace-aware XML tree, here's all it takes to implement basic
namespace processing in Java (albeit inefficiently and with incomplete
enforcement of namespace constraints):
/**
* Expands an element type or attribute name (according to the
* value of the isAttribute argument) using the
* namespace declarations in effect for the specified element.
* For a non-global attribute or for an unqualified element type
* name or for a name starting with "xml:", returns the name
* unchanged. Otherwise returns an expanded name consisting
* of the namespace URI followed by a +
* character followed by the local part. Returns null if the name
* cannot be expanded because a namespace prefix is not declared.
*/
String expandName(String name, Element element, boolean isAttribute) {
// The index of the colon character in the name.
int colonIndex = name.indexOf(':');
// The name of the attribute that declares the namespace prefix.
String declAttName;
if (colonIndex == -1) {
// Default namespace applies only to element type names.
if (isAttribute)
return name;
declAttName = "xmlns";
}
else {
String prefix = name.substring(0, colonIndex);
// "xml:" is special
if (prefix.equals("xml"))
return name;
declAttName = "xmlns:" + prefix;
}
for (; element != null; element = element.getParent()) {
String ns = element.getAttributeValue(declAttName);
if (ns != null) {
// Handle special meaning of xmlns=""
if (ns.length() == 0 && colonIndex == -1)
return name;
return ns + '+' + name.substring(colonIndex + 1);
}
}
return null;
}
James
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From rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Aug 4 10:16:34 1998
From: rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ron Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: API versioning in SAX
Message-ID: <199808040814.KAA27809@berlin.dvs1.tu-darmstadt.de>
> Just to play the devil's advocate, are you sure you are not creating a
> technical solution to what everyone is more likely to solve with a
> non-technical one? If I'm the administrator of my server or my workstation,
and
> I see a new SAX driver out there, wouldn't I just read the README before I
even
> downloaded it to make sure that its capable of doing what my current does
(plus
> more maybe?) I doubt very seriously I'd just download new drivers and try them
> until one fails to fail, ya know? And, even if I did, the fact that it fails
to
> fail on the 3 apps I have now, doesn't mean it supports what I want to support
> on app #4, so I'm going to just read the docs and see what it supports most
> likely.
Generic, third party applications built on top of SAX are pretty much expected
to work with all SAX parsers -- that's the whole point of having a standard
interface. An example of this kind of application is a spreadsheet (Excel,
Quattro Pro, Lotus 1-2-3, etc.) that uses a SAX parser to read data from an XML
file.
-- Ron Bourret
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Aug 4 10:40:45 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: Namespace Comments
Message-ID: <002a01bdbf82$4cd6ef50$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
I have read the latest namespace spec. While I am sure that a lot
considerations and discussions have gone into the spec, I am compelled to
ask why something like the following was not chosen?
Cheaper by the Dozen1568491379
This is a funny book!
If attribute-based namespace declaration is the only way to go, why not use
a simple word like 'namespace' instead of 'xmlns' so that its purpose is
clear to the reader?
If 'namespace' is too common, people can qualify it with 'xml' like this
'xml:namespace'? Why not consider changing the name of the standard to
something shorter?
Saving of 4 characters does seem quite worth the use of obscure word like
'xmlns' for something as common as namespace.
Best wishes,
Don Park
CTO/Docuverse
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From rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Aug 4 10:43:37 1998
From: rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ron Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <199808040838.KAA27837@berlin.dvs1.tu-darmstadt.de>
> Does XSchema handle 'redefinition' of schema either entirely or partially?
> I would like to see each XLF log source redefine their schema from time to
> time to reflect changes. XSchema can handle this, it would be great.
I'm not sure I understand the question. Do you mean, can you change your
content models and so on and have XSchema automatically resolve the differences
based on which version of the file you're reading and which version of the
XSchema you're using? If so, XSchema doesn't handle this, but it's an
interesting idea. I think that architectural forms do handle this.
-- Ron Bourret
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From jjc at jclark.com Tue Aug 4 11:00:50 1998
From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: Namespace Comments
References: <002a01bdbf82$4cd6ef50$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <35C6CA76.38929FF0@jclark.com>
Don Park wrote:
>
> I have read the latest namespace spec. While I am sure that a lot
> considerations and discussions have gone into the spec, I am compelled to
> ask why something like the following was not chosen?
[element based solution deleted]
Because it was felt undesirable that namespace processing should change
the structure of the element tree.
> If attribute-based namespace declaration is the only way to go, why not use
> a simple word like 'namespace' instead of 'xmlns' so that its purpose is
> clear to the reader?
Only names beginning with "xml" (any case) are reserved by the XML spec.
> If 'namespace' is too common, people can qualify it with 'xml' like this
> 'xml:namespace'?
Using 'xml:namespace' would mean that a namespace 'foo' was declared
using
xml:namespace:foo="..."
which looks very strange to me.
James
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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Tue Aug 4 11:06:03 1998
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:23 2004
Subject: Namespaces !
Message-ID: <199808040904.LAA22283@chimay.loria.fr>
I read the last specification of the XML Namespaces this night. To tell the
truth it disturbed me somewhat !
* Namespace Constraint: Prefix Declared
The WD says: "The namespace prefix, unless it is xml or xmlns, must have been
declared in a namespace declaration. The namespace prefixes xml and xmlns are
reserved, and considered to have been implicitly declared."
1/ The example following this definition uses a NS declared after its use :
""
I am not sure that attribute-based is the best way for declaring NS. Why
not have preserved the old specification for the declarations of XML
Namespaces (using PI) ? And use something like :
...
Create another reserved name (xmlns) weighs down the XML notation and
opens the door to already encountered problems (remenber HTML!). Each one
(Microsoft, Netscape, Sun, ...) will arrive with its own reserved name and one
will fall down in the same problems as with HTML (
>
> John Paul II
>
>
> The CSS stylesheet will blindly style both foo:p's, even though they
> are semantically distinct ("paragraph" vs. "pope"), because the
> stylesheet is global and the ns prefixes are local.
"[W]ill" in what sense? In the sense that IE 5, developed before the
current namespace spec does this? In the sense that you think it
might.
The behavior of CSS in the presence of namespaces is undefined. But I
have every reason to expect that it will follow the (soon-to-be-)
defined behavior of XSL, which is that the universal name is
compared. So consider this:
This is a paragraph.
John Paul II
The stylesheet will only affect the first , since it is a style
for http://some.net/ns-1:p, and only matches same. It would also
match
This is also a paragraph.
-Chris
--
http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 6 23:38:27 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Expanded names are not enough
References: <199808062109.RAA21507@ruby.ora.com>
Message-ID: <35CA2233.24069835@locke.ccil.org>
Chris Maden scripsit:
> "[W]ill" in what sense? In the sense that IE 5, developed before the
> current namespace spec does this? In the sense that you think it
> might.
In the sense of clause 5.4 of CSS2: "A type selector matches the name
of a document language element type". The name, not the UniversalName.
> The behavior of CSS in the presence of namespaces is undefined. But I
> have every reason to expect that it will follow the (soon-to-be-)
> defined behavior of XSL, which is that the universal name is
> compared.
"Every reason" as in "reasons you can't talk about"?
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Thu Aug 6 23:49:14 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On Thu, 6 Aug 1998, Chris Hubick wrote:
>
>
>
> %p1;%p0;">
> ]>
> This is&e1; .
>
> My first thought for expanding PEReferences at the lexical level was to
> just convert any quotes in the replacement text to %, but that would
> break the above example. How does one tell to escape the quote when
> substituting p0, but not when substituting p1? Ahhh!
Well, I figured out a way to solve this problem in my parser, when
asking the lexical level for a character, the object in the grammar/parser
layer can just pass down a this pointer which will give the lexical layer
access to the current production hierarchy up to the point where
the character is being requested. That will let me know if I am in a
Comment, EntityValue, DocTypeDecl, or whatever, and allow me to take the
appropriate action. I think. :-)
> 4. It shall be easy to write programs which process XML documents.
Did somebody say easy? :-) Compared to what? Ok, so it isn't
_that_ hard, but I don't know if I would call this easy in the trivial
sense of the word. PE References definitely take this beyond quick
weekend hack.
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 6 23:58:00 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
References:
Message-ID: <35CA26C5.9A912B5F@locke.ccil.org>
Chris Hubick wrote:
> > 4. It shall be easy to write programs which process XML documents.
>
> Did somebody say easy? :-) Compared to what? Ok, so it isn't
> _that_ hard, but I don't know if I would call this easy in the trivial
> sense of the word. PE References definitely take this beyond quick
> weekend hack.
I don't think that statement was meant to include processing the
external subset, and PErefs in the document proper (viz. in the
internal subset) are very limited.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From crism at oreilly.com Fri Aug 7 00:03:21 1998
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Expanded names are not enough
In-Reply-To: <35CA2233.24069835@locke.ccil.org> (message from John Cowan on
Thu, 06 Aug 1998 17:37:55 -0400)
Message-ID: <199808062201.SAA22327@ruby.ora.com>
[John Cowan]
> Chris Maden scripsit:
>
> > "[W]ill" in what sense? In the sense that IE 5, developed before
> > the current namespace spec does this? In the sense that you think
> > it might.
[s/b "might?".]
> In the sense of clause 5.4 of CSS2: "A type selector matches the
> name of a document language element type". The name, not the
> UniversalName.
Yeah, but when that was written, the colon wasn't a legal name
character. (Well, strictly, it was legal but reserved.) Trying to
argue that namespaces are broken, because something that doesn't know
about them doesn't work with them, is broken.
> > The behavior of CSS in the presence of namespaces is undefined.
> > But I have every reason to expect that it will follow the
> > (soon-to-be-)defined behavior of XSL, which is that the universal
> > name is compared.
>
> "Every reason" as in "reasons you can't talk about"?
No; it's just the sensical thing to do.
-Chris
--
http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 02:15:27 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (was Re: unsubscribe)
In-Reply-To: <35C9D305.E5364DB5@fast.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980807004521.442f9d80@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 19:00 06/08/98 +0300, Hans-Guenter Stein wrote:
>unsubscribe
>
>(if that doesn't work, PLEASE anybody tell me how to get of the list...)
'unsubscribe' NEVER works when posted directly to a list. If you read to
the bottom of this message you will find TWO copies of the instructions.
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people think this is unnecessary verbosity, but Henry and I think they are
essential.
BTW Henry gets 600 emails/week resulting from this list. So please try to
do what it says first. And only in case of dire problems mail Henry.
P.
>
>--
>
>
> Hans-G?nter Stein, FAST e.V.
>
> Arabellastr. 17 | Tel +49-89-920047-55 | mailto:hgs@fast.de
> D-81925 Muenchen | Fax +49-89-920047-18 | http://www.fast.de/~hgs
>
>
>
>
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>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 02:15:30 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: a request for clarifications on WD-xml-names-19980802
In-Reply-To: <35CA1902.685333A@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980807005552.487f7c80@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 22:59 06/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>greetings,
>
>i appreciate that w3c and the draft's authors have provided a forum to which
>one can direct questions about the latest working draft.
Yes - you have found the right mailto:
>
>there follow several postings which pose questions. i have endeavored to
>determine the answers by reading the document and by posting questions to
>xml-dev, but (in particular with regard to issues I through IV) have not yet
>arrived at answers sufficient to permit me to implement conforming support in
>an xml processor.
Probably worth exercising some patience. On XML-DEV there is no one person
who is mandated to answer questions so if an individual thinks they are too
hard or too obvious they'll keep quiet.
>
>there are five requests for further information. i am posting them in
separate messages.
>
> I please specify the extent of the prefix binding as well as the scope.
> II please establish a method to bind a prefix which covers external dtd
subsets.
>III please provide examples which describe processing in the presence of
entities.
> IV please specify the precedence rules for attribute "specification".
> V please explain why namespace partitions are necessary.
This is asking a lot... V in particular could be one line or several thousand.
Like you I appreciate examples but they take time to create. They are
beginning to arrive on this list so observe carefully. Also, try posting
some of your own and see if you get applauded or !applauded.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 02:15:33 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Namespaces and URNs
In-Reply-To: <5030300023786739000002L092*@MHS>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980807010856.41cf21ea@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 15:28 06/08/98 -0400, Dean Roddey wrote:
>
>I'm reposting this for Murry, who was having trouble posting today...
Just to clarify "Murry" = Murray Altheim; The first quote here is Peter
Murray-Rust...
>
>> "So if we are serious about making namespaces work we need to start
using...
>
MurrayA continues...
>Most of the common DTDs are not 'within the remit of the W3C'. In fact, only
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri Aug 7 02:20:12 1998
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
In-Reply-To: Chris Hubick's message of Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:38:11 +0000 (GMT)
Message-ID: <21795.199808070018@cockburn.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
>
>
>
> %p1;%p0;">
> ]>
> This is&e1; .
>
> From what I understand, this seems well formed!?
First of all, PE references in the internal subset are required to
be whole declarations, so it's not well formed for that reason.
So suppose it was instead in the external subset. It would still be wrong
(invalid) because declarations must start and end in the same entity
(validity constraint on production 29).
This doesn't rule out something like
or (more simply)
I'm sure it was not intended that these be allowed - the purpose
of the extra space added to the expansion of PEs was to ensure that they
produce complete tokens - but I don't see where it is prohibited.
My parser reports "Error: Quoted string goes past entity end" for this
example, and I believe this is the right behaviour.
-- Richard
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From rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de Fri Aug 7 03:06:57 1998
From: rbourret at dvs1.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de (Ron Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: XSchema converters
Message-ID: <199808070105.DAA10452@berlin.dvs1.tu-darmstadt.de>
New versions of the XSchema-to-DTD and DTD-to-XSchema converters are available:
http://www.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/DVS1/staff/bourret/xschema/convert.html
Changes:
* Alignment with the current spec. These are a bit behind in changes made in
the last couple of days (notably namespaces) and bit ahead in a few others.
* Entity support in DTD-to-XSchema. This is not as robust as it could be, but
works on all files I tried it on. WARNING: See the web page for general entity
problems. Be sure to note that declaring quot and apos might cause errors.
* General cleanup and testing.
* The XSchema output program now correctly escapes & and < when writing Doc
elements.
I will be off the list for a few weeks, so please send bugs directly to me.
Have fun!
-- Ron Bourret
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From tbray at textuality.com Fri Aug 7 03:55:08 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: XML errors and fatal errors.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980806184830.00c16c50@207.34.179.21>
At 04:05 PM 8/6/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>So technically a
>document like
>
>
>though not WF, is not "in error", since neither "error" nor "must"
>is anywhere applied to what is wrong with it.
Well, the spec is not perfect, but it makes it pretty clear that the
above, while you may wish to apply the English word "document" to it,
is not, in the terms of the spec, an "XML Document", and that a
conforming XML Processor would emit some serious complaints when fed
this particular character sequence. -T.
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Fri Aug 7 07:38:43 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
In-Reply-To: <35C9EE05.C856459A@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808070541.AA01927@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
John Cowan wrote:
> Mapping tables are available at
> ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/EASTASIA ,
> and for Microsoft Windows at
> ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP936.TXT .
Another WWW page for the conversion between EUC-JP and Unicode 2.0 is
available at:
http://indy.opengroup.or.jp/jvc/cde/ucs-conv.html
More than one conversion procedures certainly exist. The more I think about
this issue, the more pessimistic I become.
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From numa at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp Fri Aug 7 08:41:40 1998
From: numa at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (NUMATA Toshinori)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
In-Reply-To: <199808070541.AA01927@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
References: <199808070541.AA01927@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
Message-ID:
In the message as of Aug 7 14:41,
MURATA Makoto writes:
> Another WWW page for the conversion between EUC-JP and Unicode 2.0 is
> available at:
>
> http://indy.opengroup.or.jp/jvc/cde/ucs-conv.html
The web page referenced above is in Japanese. English version is
available at:
http://www.opengroup.or.jp/jvc/cde/ucs-conv-e.html
> More than one conversion procedures certainly exist. The more I think about
> this issue, the more pessimistic I become.
The code set conversion rule specified in JIS X 0221 (JIS version of
ISO/IEC 10646-1) is different from the one distributed by Unicode
Consortium. Microsoft Windows uses yet another conversion rule (which
is based on the rule previously distributed by Unicode Consortium).
So we already have three different conversion rules publicly available.
There will be more rules for private purposes. Sigh.
--
NUMATA Toshinori
Planning Dept. 1, Research and Planning Div., Software Group, FUJITSU LIMITED
Phone: +81-45-476-4587 (x4169) Fax: +81-45-476-4749
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri Aug 7 10:30:38 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980805133922.00a9be4c@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
* Lars Marius Garshol
>
>This is a proposal for XML Software Autoupdate, a system for
>automatically keeping track of new releases of software products.
* Tim Bray
>
>Isn't this what OSD, from MS & Marimba, is supposed to do?
Yes, in a sense. However, XSA concerns itself with discovering
new versions and changed addresses, while OSD goes much further,
and omits some of the most useful parts of XSA.
Compare the example below from the OSD spec with the XSA sample
and I think you'll see what I mean. I looked at OSD before I
started this, but skipped it as it simply wasn't suitable for
my purposes.
SolitaireSolitaire by FooBar Corporation
--Lars M.
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri Aug 7 10:54:53 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no>
Here's a really stupid question that I haven't been able to figure out
the answer to:
Sral, the naive XML developer, is developing an XML application. He
writes a DTD that embeds John Cowans IBTWSH DTD in a certain place to
provide for documentation. The IBTWSH DTD at some point contains this
declaration:
and Srals DTD contains:
%insert-IBTWSH-here;
So far, all is well. These documents are supposed to be processed in
part by software written for IBTWSH documents, so Sral adds to his DTD
the following declaration:
so that all IBTWSH elements will use the IBTWSH namespace by default.
Then, somewhere in one of his documents, Sral writes:
Huba!
This is where the problems begin. (Well, they really started above,
but it's easier to see here.) Srals validating parser can now do one
of three things if it supports namespaces:
a) complain that the IBTWSH:P element has not been declared. (Which
is literally true: it was declared as P.)
b) complain that the http://www.purl.org/foo:P element has not been
declared.
c) strip out the namespace prefix and have IBTWSH:P blithely collide
with the Sral:P defined in Srals DTD.
In other words: as far as I can understand either DTDs must use the
full namespace names in all declarations, as in
(which is truly unreadable, and also not well-formed) or there must be
some means by which a DTD can declare its namespace, which will of
course be difficult since one may want to mix namespaces.
I can't imagine that the XML WG has failed to think of this, so if
some kind soul could point out what I have failed to think of here I
would be most grateful. Thanks.
--
"These are, as I began, cumbersome ways / to kill a man. Simpler, direct,
and much more neat / is to see that he is living somewhere in the middle /
of the twentieth century, and leave him there." -- Edwin Brock
http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/ http://birk105.studby.uio.no/
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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Fri Aug 7 12:05:21 1998
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:36 2004
Subject: XML DMS and indexing ?
Message-ID: <199808071003.MAA15430@chimay.loria.fr>
Is someone developping a system (in Java !) for indexing (using both structure
and content) large XML documents in the framework of a Document Management
System for example? I saw the message of Dongwook Shin about his BUS
technique, and i was wondering if it exists some other systems or techniques ?
Thanks,
Pat.
--
==============================================================
bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228
http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52
--------------------------------------------------------------
* Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide
* Projet Aquarelle : http://aqua.inria.fr
==============================================================
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Fri Aug 7 12:50:00 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <199808071053.UAA09321@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
> >Hey! Nice idea! XSchema certainly supports this -- it's just a bunch of
> XML
>
>
> Thanks. Support is, I suppose, unintentional?;-)
>
Hi !
Could I bring this topic back again ? :-)
I'm a novice in this X-World in that I haven't implemented
anything, and I have to "run at full speed to just stay still" with
all the new specs :-) (In fact I haven't read about XSchema yet ! :-)
Could somebody give me the reference ?). But I'm thrilled to hear
somebody have a similar idea to mine :-) Don, you are certainly not
alone in this world ! Now I would like to contribute some of my 2c :-)....
>> 1) You've probably already realized this, but a DTD for such a file
>> would be of little or no use. Because each XSchema section can
>> introduce new elements and redefine old ones, the DTD would probably
>>consist of a bunch of elements with content models of ANY. This is of
>> no use either for validation or determining storage structures on the
>> fly.
>You are right but it makes perfect sense for transitory documents
>which exists only while it is moving from one place to another.
>Ability to redefine default attribute values should be enough of a
>benefit I think.
Do you have an example of this Don ?
Also I think it makes a lot of sense with regards to
schema evolution. I think this theory will give a lot of inputs for
the design of an evolvable system. I'm working on this and have
also got some papers in the last WWW8 and SCI'98 conferences. We
do have some believers ! :-) As people are now free to create their
own DTDs I think we would expect to have many DTDs created even in
the same domain. The XSA and OSD just posted here is one example. Why
don't we reused the elements that have been defined in other DTDs ?
Why don't we have OO in XSchema so we can inherit features from other
DTDs ?... And the problem of old XML document with new (dynamically
generated) DTD that Peter mentioned in the log file example can
probably be resolved using the conformal and polymorphism rules. And
the dynamic schema will come in to automate the evolution process...
Just a few thoughts...
TL
****************************************************************************
Thuy-Linh Nguyen
CSSE, PO Box 197, Monash Univerisity, Caulfield East, VIC 3145, Australia
Ph: 61-3-9903-2041, Fax: 61-3-9903-1077, http://www.sd.monash.edu.au/~tln/
****************************************************************************
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 7 13:21:44 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (Personal Prefixes, Namespaces and Unique Personal
Identifiers)
In-Reply-To: <199808071053.UAA09321@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980807121846.40dfb020@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 20:50 07/08/98 +0000, [a poster] wrote:
[...]
>DTDs ?... And the problem of old XML document with new (dynamically
>generated) DTD that Peter mentioned in the log file example can
^^^^^
Namespace collision!!!
I am not sure which Peter is being talked about! (I think it's me, but all
these rocks in my head make it difficult to remember).
Another poster wrote:
... [submitting this msg on behalf of Murry (sic)]
It's important to identify these references as precisely as possible :-) We
don't yet have unique personal identifiers. The point is that some people
are new to this list and may not 'know everyone'. Also Henry and I see the
XML-DEV archive as a potentially valuable historic record and it's valuable
to give as many clues as possible. The more consistent this is the easier
it is for people to carry out reformatting (to XML of course). Ideally
every quotation should be identifiable.
Thus:
- when you quote, try to include information identifying participants
- identify them by full name if there is any chance of confusion (e.g.
Murray Altheim, Peter Murray-Rust).
- to keep it friendly I often use a scheme from the MOO culture - adding
the initial only, thus: MurrayA, PeterMR, DavidM.
Of course when this is all XMLised we shall be &murray1;, &pmr23; etc. and
we can have personalised stylesheets at different points of the cascade.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From david at megginson.com Fri Aug 7 15:06:15 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <199808071305.JAA00269@unready.megginson.com>
Lars Marius Garshol writes:
> Sral, the naive XML developer, is developing an XML application. He
> writes a DTD that embeds John Cowans IBTWSH DTD in a certain place to
> provide for documentation.
[...]
> I can't imagine that the XML WG has failed to think of this, so if
> some kind soul could point out what I have failed to think of here I
> would be most grateful. Thanks.
Neither the original nor the new version of the namespaces spec was
designed to deal with DTD composition. It is possible to write a DTD
that deals with specific, constrained uses of namespaces (and even
hides the namespace machinery in #FIXED attribute values), but it is
not possible to combine DTD fragments arbitrarily.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From peterj at wrox.com Fri Aug 7 15:15:21 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Processing instructions
Message-ID:
Can anyone supply me with a plausible example of the use of processing
instructions
PITargetAppName p.i..p.i..p.i...?>
filling in the p.i.s for me?
Thanks in advance,
Peter Jones
WebDev Technical Editor
Wrox Press
mailto:peterj@wrox.com
***************
Wrox Press UK Ltd.
http://www.wrox.co.uk
Tel 44 121 706 6826
Fax 44 121 706 2967
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From peterj at wrox.com Fri Aug 7 15:26:08 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: P.I's
Message-ID:
Is this the sort of thing?
Peter Jones
WebDev Technical Editor
Wrox Press
mailto:peterj@wrox.com
***************
Wrox Press UK Ltd.
http://www.wrox.co.uk
Tel 44 121 706 6826
Fax 44 121 706 2967
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Fri Aug 7 15:54:11 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
Message-ID:
Lars Marius Garshol writes:
> I can't imagine that the XML WG has failed to think of this, so if
> some kind soul could point out what I have failed to think of here I
> would be most grateful. Thanks.
And David Megginson writes:
>Neither the original nor the new version of the namespaces spec was
>designed to deal with DTD composition. It is possible to write a DTD
>that deals with specific, constrained uses of namespaces (and even
>hides the namespace machinery in #FIXED attribute values), but it is
>not possible to combine DTD fragments arbitrarily.
This may be an area in which XSchema, which is still evolving to meet the
needs of the namespace spec, has an advantage. ns information, as well as
prefixes, can be coded into the XSchema, making it possible for validation
against an XSchema to consider namespaces 'in the original' without having to
necessarily compromise element names or curse the existence of prefixes.
Sound good?
Element declarations coming up next...
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From chris.m.hinds at mail.sprint.com Fri Aug 7 15:58:05 1998
From: chris.m.hinds at mail.sprint.com (chris m hinds)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID:
Not to slam this particular person, but do that many internet people
studying XML not know how to use majordomo? What's more, do they not
read the footer appended to every XML-DEV message?
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thursday, August 06, 1998 2:44 PM
To: xml-dev
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 17:17:48 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
References: <21795.199808070018@cockburn.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <35CB1A84.BF1D1C31@locke.ccil.org>
Richard Tobin quoted:
>
> > >
> >
> >
> > %p1;%p0;">
> > ]>
> > This is&e1; .
> >
> > From what I understand, this seems well formed!?
and replied:
> So suppose it was instead in the external subset. It would still be wrong
> (invalid) because declarations must start and end in the same entity
> (validity constraint on production 29).
Yes, it's invalid. But is it WF? I say it is WF, despite the
regrettable nature of this particular WF entity. Ditto with
(in the external subset):
%StartEntity; Foo "Foo">
Ugh, yuck. But WF.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From donpark at quake.net Fri Aug 7 17:20:06 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <002f01bdc215$91b6a5d0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
>somebody have a similar idea to mine :-) Don, you are certainly not
>alone in this world ! Now I would like to contribute some of my 2c :-)....
That is impossible because the size of my ego does not leave enough room for
others.
>>You are right but it makes perfect sense for transitory documents
>>which exists only while it is moving from one place to another.
>>Ability to redefine default attribute values should be enough of a
>>benefit I think.
>
>Do you have an example of this Don ?
Yes. Turn your TV on and pick any live news program. Think of what you are
looking at as a XML document created out of hundreds of multimedia resources
and news reports. You can record the news program and play it back but you
are not recreating the up to the minute decision making.
Another example would be the XML-based MUD session. Think of a MUD game
played over time as a single document that is so complex that you can only
consume specific slices of it. What you read depends on positions of
characters, state of objects, what each active object do, and what events
occur. Capture the output of a MUD session and you got a transitory
document.
>Also I think it makes a lot of sense with regards to
>schema evolution. I think this theory will give a lot of inputs for
>the design of an evolvable system. I'm working on this and have
>also got some papers in the last WWW8 and SCI'98 conferences. We
>do have some believers ! :-) As people are now free to create their
>own DTDs I think we would expect to have many DTDs created even in
>the same domain. The XSA and OSD just posted here is one example. Why
>don't we reused the elements that have been defined in other DTDs ?
>Why don't we have OO in XSchema so we can inherit features from other
>DTDs ?... And the problem of old XML document with new (dynamically
>generated) DTD that Peter mentioned in the log file example can
>probably be resolved using the conformal and polymorphism rules. And
>the dynamic schema will come in to automate the evolution process...
To me, DTD is synonymous with the Dodo bird. Its extinction, as well as the
extinction of Dodo bird hunters (DTD writers), is inevitable. Document
designers and data sculpters cometh...
Don Park
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 17:25:25 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: XML errors and fatal errors.
References: <3.0.32.19980806184830.00c16c50@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CB1C40.9FEDBCE4@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> Well, the spec is not perfect, but it makes it pretty clear that the
> above, while you may wish to apply the English word "document" to it,
> is not, in the terms of the spec, an "XML Document", and that a
> conforming XML Processor would emit some serious complaints when fed
> this particular character sequence. -T.
Of course. A simple fix would be to add a sentence to clause 2.1,
somewhat as follows: "It is a fatal error for a document not to
match the production _document_."
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Fri Aug 7 17:27:46 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (Personal Prefixes, Namespaces and Unique Personal Identifiers)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980807121846.40dfb020@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID:
On Fri, 7 Aug 1998, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> It's important to identify these references as precisely as possible :-) We
> don't yet have unique personal identifiers. The point is that some people
> are new to this list and may not 'know everyone'. Also Henry and I see the
^^^^^
Sorry, I couldn't help it :-)
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 17:38:33 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <35CB1F54.8F13ACC1@locke.ccil.org>
Lars Marius Garshol scripsit:
> These documents are supposed to be processed in
> part by software written for IBTWSH documents, so Sral adds to his DTD
> the following declaration:
>
> xmlns:IBTWSH "http://www.purl.org/foo" #FIXED>
>
> so that all IBTWSH elements will use the IBTWSH namespace by default.
The problem is all the worse in that IBTWSH doesn't have a root
element, being meant solely for embedding (there are no IBTWSH
*documents* as such; HTML serves that function). I know you just
chose IBTWSH as a well-known example, but the problem's bigger
than you thought.
> Then, somewhere in one of his documents, Sral writes:
>
> Huba!
>
> This is where the problems begin. (Well, they really started above,
> but it's easier to see here.) Srals validating parser can now do one
> of three things if it supports namespaces:
>
> a) complain that the IBTWSH:P element has not been declared. (Which
> is literally true: it was declared as P.)
Seems to me that it *must* do this in the name of SGML backward
compatibility. The developers of namespaces don't seem to give
a red rubber rat's **** about DTD-based validation.
> In other words: as far as I can understand either DTDs must use the
> full namespace names in all declarations, as in
>
>
>
> (which is truly unreadable, and also not well-formed) or there must be
> some means by which a DTD can declare its namespace, which will of
> course be difficult since one may want to mix namespaces.
DTDs don't *have* namespaces under the new draft. DTDs understand
prefixes only, without a clue as to what the prefixes might mean.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 17:49:20 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: P.I's
References:
Message-ID: <35CB21D7.553D9D06@locke.ccil.org>
Peter Jones wrote:
>
>
That would be better managed with an unparsed entity and this DTD:
and then in the document instance:
> Is this the sort of thing?
A better use for PIs is to instruct programs that filter or otherwise
interpret XML. For example, there is a (non-standard) PI for
attaching a stylesheet to a document for rendering purposes:
architectural forms processing (which is essentially a scheme
for mapping idiosyncratic elements or attributes into ones defined
by a standard called an "architecture) use a PI to name the
architecture and give useful details about it, etc. etc.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From eliot at isogen.com Fri Aug 7 17:52:28 1998
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Processing instructions
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980807104234.007c3570@postoffice.swbell.net>
At 02:11 PM 8/7/98 +0100, Peter Jones wrote:
>Can anyone supply me with a plausible example of the use of processing
>instructions
> PITargetAppName p.i..p.i..p.i...?>
PIs are intended to be used to convey processor-specific messages to
processors. A typical use is to indicate transient formatting stuff to
composition engines, such as page breaks:
This has a page break before it
Other typical examples are the PIs that the ADEPT*Editor product uses to
maintain information it needs, such as where the cursor was when you last
saved, local format overrides, and the like. These are all things that can
be discarded without significant loss and that are unique to the
ADEPT*Editor product, so they are appropriately managed with PIs.
As a rule, PIs are, by definition, stuff that can be removed without
affecting the content of the document (although it may affect its
processing by a particular application).
Note that PIs have also been used as a substitute for formal markup
declarations (e.g., the XML declaration PI) because SGML does not provide a
way to declare new markup declaration types.
PIs should *not* be used for things like creating hyperlinks or
use-by-reference relationships among documents, pulling in graphics, and
the like, unless those relationships are transient and specific to a
particular processor (for example, ADEPT*Editor might use PIs to relate a
document to some ADEPT-specific configuration file).
Finally, note that elements, as well as PIs, can be governed by notations
simply by having an attribute of type NOTATION for the element:
]>
This equation is governed by the MyMath notation
This is analogous to using notations as PI targets, the difference being
that the notation processor (the thing that implements the notation) gets
the element as its input rather than the PI.
Cheers,
Eliot
--
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer
ISOGEN International Corp.
2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004
www.isogen.com
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From samg at fundtech.com Fri Aug 7 17:57:29 1998
From: samg at fundtech.com (Sam Gentile)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:37 2004
Subject: Questions on schema and other XML issues
Message-ID: <000b01bdc21b$f7ea12a0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which discusses
schemas. It is not clear from the document what a schema is used for or what
it's purpose is. Is it for designing the XML buffer only or is it read by
the parser? Is it an extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is there one?
We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
Can you do this in XML:?
<1>
<1>test1>
1>
Can they have the same name or this the namespace extension we have been
hearing about? What are namespaces? Are they in the spec now?
Thanks very much,
Sam Gentile
Senior Software Engineer
Fundtech Corporation
samg@fundtech.com
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From tbray at textuality.com Fri Aug 7 18:35:59 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980807093540.00c36cc0@207.34.179.21>
At 11:37 AM 8/7/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> The developers of namespaces don't seem to give
>a red rubber rat's **** about DTD-based validation.
Well, never having actually owned any red rubber rat genitalia
(unless of course you meant ***** to stand for "eyelashes" - I
have lots of red rubber rat eyelashes) I can't comment on that
particular transaction.
Having said that, there is no doubt that when we went from document-global
PI-declared namespaces do element-scoped attribute-declared namespaces,
traditional DTD validation got somewhat messier. I personally am not very
happy with that trade-off, but people I respect were on the other side of
that vote and there's no doubt that scoping and defaulting make namespaces
quite a lot more *usable*.
But on further consideration... doing traditional XML validation of
namespaced documents involves an (easy) syntactic problem and a (hard)
compounding problem. Let's assume we have a way to make all the
names in the DTDs match the ones they should in the document (the
syntax problem, see below). That leaves the hard problem of constructing
the compound master DTD that validates the way all the bits fit
together. I'm not optimistic (ever) about solving that one, without
human intervention, in the context of 8879-style markup declarations.
But people are clever, so let's see.
As for the syntax problem. Let's assume we've got a compound DTD, and
know, for each name in there, what namespace it comes from. Let's
further assume that we've got an instance that contains prefixes,
including:
- some defaulted elements that are namespaced even without prefixes
- some cases where two different prefixes are used in different
scopes to refer to the same namespace
- some cases where the same prefix is used in two different scopes
to refer to different namespaces
So you take one pass through the instance, observing which namespace
URIs are in play. You make a unique prefix for each. You take another
pass through the instance, declaring all the prefixes on the root
element, and eliminating all defaults, so that everything is prefixed,
and that the same prefix is used for each namespace in all cases. Then
you go back and munge the DTD, inserting the same namespace
prefixes on all names as appropriate. Then you validate.
Hey-presto!
I think all the above, while icky, is perfectly tractable. But it
presupposes you have some good technology for (or even industry
experience in) constructing the compound DTD in the first place, which
we don't.
To summarize: the new namespace proposal makes the (easy) syntax
munging problem somewhat harder (but not, I argue, qualitatively).
It doesn't affect the (hard) compounding problem, which is the one
we really ought to be worrying about more than we are. -Tim
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From tbray at textuality.com Fri Aug 7 18:37:33 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980807092011.00bf5d80@207.34.179.21>
At 11:17 AM 8/7/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>
>%StartEntity; Foo "Foo">
>
>Ugh, yuck. But WF.
Nope. Check out the WF constraint "Proper Declaration/PE Nesting"
on production [29] in section 2.8.
Of course, the real lesson in all this is that PEs are Markup From Hell
and there's gotta be a better way. -T.
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 18:47:21 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Quotes in PEReferences
References: <3.0.32.19980807092011.00bf5d80@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CB2F65.DA320AFF@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> At 11:17 AM 8/7/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> >
> >%StartEntity; Foo "Foo">
> >
> >Ugh, yuck. But WF.
>
> Nope. Check out the WF constraint "Proper Declaration/PE Nesting"
> on production [29] in section 2.8.
Like I keep saying, that's a *validity* constraint. Documents with DTDs
like the above aren't valid, but they *are* WF, unless someone can
show a WF constraint they violate.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From crism at oreilly.com Fri Aug 7 19:00:11 1998
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: XML errors and fatal errors.
In-Reply-To: <35CB1C40.9FEDBCE4@locke.ccil.org> (message from John Cowan on
Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:24:48 -0400)
Message-ID: <199808071658.MAA17666@ruby.ora.com>
[John Cowan]
> Of course. A simple fix would be to add a sentence to clause 2.1,
> somewhat as follows: "It is a fatal error for a document not to
> match the production _document_."
2. Documents
A data object is an _XML document_ if it is well-formed, as defined in
this specification.
[...]
2.1 Well-Formed XML Documents
A textual object is a well-formed XML document if:
1. Taken as a whole, it matches the production labeled _document_.
[...]
So, to my reading, if it doesn't match _document_, it isn't XML, and
is outside the scope of the spec. The XML spec shouldn't dictate
error-handling behavior for non-XML objects; otherwise, future
browsers would be required not to process GIFs, Word documents, HTML,
etc. That would be silly.
-Chris
--
http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 19:08:15 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.32.19980807093540.00c36cc0@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CB345C.F8EB968C@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray scripsit:
> As for the syntax problem. Let's assume we've got a compound DTD, and
> know, for each name in there, what namespace it comes from.
The draft, to be sure, mentions no such method. But we can suppose
that this proto-DTD contains PIs, let's say the PIs from the old
draft, that tell us what the namespaces are, or it could just be
verbose but simple PIs that say:
element A belongs to namespace foo
global attribute B belongs to namespace bar
attribute B of element A belongs to namespace baz
> So you take one pass through the instance, observing which namespace
> URIs are in play. You make a unique prefix for each. You take another
> pass through the instance, declaring all the prefixes on the root
> element, and eliminating all defaults, so that everything is prefixed,
> and that the same prefix is used for each namespace in all cases. Then
> you go back and munge the DTD, inserting the same namespace
> prefixes on all names as appropriate. Then you validate.
> Hey-presto!
Okay. So you can validate provided you are willing not only to
rewrite the DTD (which is reasonable) but to rewrite the instance
too! That concedes in effect that there are instances which
simply *cannot* be validated, because they use the same QNames
in inconsistent ways. There may be other instances, equivalent
wrt namespaces, that can be validated, but that's not the same thing.
(2nd response follows wrt the semantic problem)
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 19:14:50 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: XML errors and fatal errors.
References: <199808071658.MAA17666@ruby.ora.com>
Message-ID: <35CB35EA.714A272C@locke.ccil.org>
Chris Maden wrote:
> So, to my reading, if it doesn't match _document_, it isn't XML, and
> is outside the scope of the spec. The XML spec shouldn't dictate
> error-handling behavior for non-XML objects; otherwise, future
> browsers would be required not to process GIFs, Word documents, HTML,
> etc. That would be silly.
My point is that it's regrettable that
This is a broken XML document
does not require a fatal error, whereas
This is a broken XML document
does, as it violates a specific WFC.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From samg at fundtech.com Fri Aug 7 19:18:08 1998
From: samg at fundtech.com (Sam Gentile)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: including lists in XML?
Message-ID: <000e01bdc227$30d2b3f0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
Problem:
We need a way to represent lists of items. That is, any item which will be
included in an XML buffer, where we don't know at compile time the size of
the list.
Proposal:
1. Include a field in the database, TMS_IPM_REPOSITORY_DETAIL, to indicate
to the factory to keep reading all items of a specific type untill there are
no more items of that type. Or, to indicate to the factory to keep writing
all items of a specific type untill there are no more items of that type.
2. If this field is set, the Generator:
adds the "declare(RWGSlist, C)" to the #include for class
declares the type for C as "RWGSlist(C) m_lst" wherever
the class is used
3. If this the type of the item is a list, the factory has a get and put for
lists. This class uses the RWGSlist member functions next() and at() to
access the items.
Copy of a XML buffer which has multiple instances
Henry FordSamuel CrowtherHarvey S. FirestoneHenry FordSamuel CrowtherMy Life and WorkHarvey S. FirestoneSamuel CrowtherMen and Rubber
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From tbray at textuality.com Fri Aug 7 19:20:24 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980807101751.00a05800@207.34.179.21>
At 01:07 PM 8/7/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>Okay. So you can validate provided you are willing not only to
>rewrite the DTD (which is reasonable) but to rewrite the instance
>too!
The re-writing is pretty mechanical... having said that, I agree that
the real lesson is that the requirement for a new schema facility which
is a DTD superset and also namespace-sensitive is becoming glaringly
obvious.
>That concedes in effect that there are instances which
>simply *cannot* be validated, because they use the same QNames
>in inconsistent ways.
That doesn't follow; you can certainly construct a DTD to describe
any conceivable well-formed instance. If what you're saying is
that a single namespace contains usages of the same element or attribute
that are so wildly inconsistent that a DTD won't be helpful, then
that is a problem of that namespace which would exist even were it
standing alone - thus is orthogonal to the issue of namespaces. -Tim
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 19:26:57 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.32.19980807101751.00a05800@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CB38C3.3AD83ABB@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> >That concedes in effect that there are instances which
> >simply *cannot* be validated, because they use the same QNames
> >in inconsistent ways.
>
> That doesn't follow; you can certainly construct a DTD to describe
> any conceivable well-formed instance.
In the trivial sense, yes. You can declare all your elements with
content model ANY, and declare every attribute which actually
appears as CDATA #IMPLIED. I believe there is a tool somewhere
that actually constructs this sort of DTD, given an instance.
> If what you're saying is
> that a single namespace contains usages of the same element or attribute
> that are so wildly inconsistent that a DTD won't be helpful, then
> that is a problem of that namespace which would exist even were it
> standing alone - thus is orthogonal to the issue of namespaces. -Tim
No, not at all. I am saying that elements (or attributes) may share
QNames but come from different namespaces and have different
content models (or attribute types). That is a condition which couldn't
exist under the old draft.
Since DTDs know only QNames, they can't cope with such conflicts,
not between colliding namespaces, but between colliding prefixes.
In other words, if prefixes were always mapped 1-1 to namespaces,
this problem wouldn't exist.
This is quite separate from locality *as such*; locality of prefixes
just means that a given prefix isn't legal outside the scope of
its declaration. However, following the Algol precedents, you have
allowed declarations to supersede conflicting outer declarations
and to coexist with conflicting non-overlapping declarations.
There is some, if not overwhelming, software engineering experience
to indicate that this is a Bad Idea.
In short, this draft is essentially SUBDOC all over again: the scope of a namespace
declaration has fundamentally different element and attribute
types from its surrounding context.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From roddey at us.ibm.com Fri Aug 7 20:12:40 1998
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5030300023825364000002L042*@MHS>
>> Then the parser could see, even if a DTD came in from different sources via
>> different URIs, that in effect they were the exact same version and that
>> subsequent instances of the DTD could be just ignored and the current content
>> used?
>Namespace names don't have to be dereferenceable:
>"http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/labor_yutz" is a perfectly good namespace name,
>even though there's nothing there (you'll get an error if you
>try to dereference it), because I assigned it and the namespace
>names beginning http://www.ccil.org/~cowan" belong to me.
>
Hmmm. Oh well, I guess the idea is still valid though in terms of DTDs and
Schemas in general. As they proliferate and go through versions, the ability to
assign some form of universal ID in such as way that applications can get that
information from the parser would be a very useful way of dealing with some of
the potential confusion that could arise. It would be pretty simple, avoid any
need for centralization, etc...
It would be particularly easy to apply it to Schemas and XML files, because it
would only require the agreeing on of a particular element type of attribute
type or extra blah="duh" statement in the line perhaps. Since DTDs
don't have anything like that (do they?), I'm not sure how it would applied to
them, though they are the files that would best benefit from such a thing.
>In particular, there is no reason why the referent of the namespace
>name should be a DTD.
Ok, so I'm confused. Maybe its just a V vs. NV thing or something. If I define
a namespace, don't I also define a set of tags that are valid within that
namespace? I always assumed that the URL that the namespace mapped to would be
more than just a human readable unique identifier of some sort, and that it
would define the tags that legally belong to that namespace. I could see how
this would not be required for a NV scheme I guess, since it doesn't matter.
But for validation purposes, not being able to know that "Burping" was not a
valid tag within the "PoliteSociety" namespace seems like its missing out on
something important for many applications.
I can appreciate that just the partitioning of the global namespace has merit
in and of itself, but if you look at the use of namespaces in programming
languages (where I come from), its also important for them to have defined
content that can be validated against uses of them.
So am I missing something here? Do you mean its just not required, or that its
not been thought of at all?
----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com
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From hankr at dnai.com Fri Aug 7 20:35:07 1998
From: hankr at dnai.com (Hank Ratzesberger)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: XML-RPC
Message-ID: <35CB473E.4131B376@dnai.com>
Is anyone working with XML-RPC? I am interested in what the DTD would
look like for both a SSI RPC invocation and for one invoked at the
client side in a browser. Is it clear what namespace/provider requests
would go to? Is there an idea on who would be responsible for the call
and results in a browser environment (should the server make the call,
the client? should the client post the request and expect a response?
Thanks to all interested parties,
Hank
--
--------------------
Hank Ratzesberger
hankr@dnai.com
--------------------
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 20:38:25 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: namespaces vs. schemas
References: <5030300023825364000002L042*@MHS>
Message-ID: <35CB495E.E8501BE3@locke.ccil.org>
Dean Roddey wrote:
> Hmmm. Oh well, I guess the idea is still valid though in terms of DTDs and
> Schemas in general. As they proliferate and go through versions, the ability to
> assign some form of universal ID in such as way that applications can get that
> information from the parser would be a very useful way of dealing with some of
> the potential confusion that could arise. It would be pretty simple, avoid any
> need for centralization, etc...
You could insert a PI like
at the top of the DTD.
> It would be particularly easy to apply it to Schemas and XML files, because it
> would only require the agreeing on of a particular element type of attribute
> type or extra blah="duh" statement in the line perhaps. Since DTDs
> don't have anything like that (do they?), I'm not sure how it would applied to
> them, though they are the files that would best benefit from such a thing.
DTD files (entities containing external subsets, that is) can begin
with " Ok, so I'm confused. Maybe its just a V vs. NV thing or something. If I define
> a namespace, don't I also define a set of tags that are valid within that
> namespace?
Yes, but no particular way of doing this is prescribed: it can be
DTD, XML-Data, XSchema, prose in English or Japanese, or what you
will. Furthermore, the namespace name URI doesn't necessarily point
to this description. In the previous ns draft, the namespace PI
could have "src" pseudo-attributes, potentially more than one, which
defined actual schemas. This facility has been removed from the
current draft.
> I always assumed that the URL that the namespace mapped to would be
> more than just a human readable unique identifier of some sort, and that it
> would define the tags that legally belong to that namespace.
It ain't necessarily so....
> So am I missing something here? Do you mean its just not required, or that its
> not been thought of at all?
It has been thought of, but is apparently considered too large a
problem to handle as yet.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 7 20:44:34 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
Message-ID: <35CB4AEB.D06B09BD@locke.ccil.org>
Posted for Murray Altheim, who is having trouble posting to XML-Dev.
My comments appear in double square brackets.
John Cowan writes:
[...]
> The problem is all the worse in that IBTWSH doesn't have a root
> element, being meant solely for embedding (there are no IBTWSH
> *documents* as such; HTML serves that function). I know you just
> chose IBTWSH as a well-known example, but the problem's bigger
> than you thought.
I'm not sure what you mean. There is no way to declare a root element
in a DTD. Paraphrasing Eliot Kimber, a DTD is nothing more than a
collection of markup declarations. Nothing in a DTD actually describes
a document, merely structures that might make up a document. The root
element can be almost any element (RefEntry rather than Book in DocBook,
forinstance).
[[My reply: Right. However, IBTWSH is *designed* to be used in this
way, embedded in other documents with larger DTDs.]]
[...]
> Seems to me that it *must* do this in the name of SGML backward
> compatibility. The developers of namespaces don't seem to give
> a red rubber rat's **** about DTD-based validation.
I don't think that's entirely true, given the long, heated arguments
over the issue. It seems merely that those that wanted namespaces
regardless of DTDs won out over those that thought full compatibility
with XML 1.0 (including PIs and DTDs) was more important. I find that
unfortunate, but I guess we'll all have to live with it now or find
somewhere else to look for standardization.
In all of my testing, I have found namespaces and DTDs to be inherently
incompatible in all but the most constrained (and manually modified)
instances. The whole point of namespaces was to allow combination of
existing namespaces. If one has to modify all the element and attribute
names in a DTD, the justification for namespaces evaporates: one might
as well change HTML's 'pre' to 'HTML_pre' than bother to use 'HTML:pre'.
[[My reply: Still worse if one must modify the instance itself, removing
all non-unique prefixes, in order to achieve validation at all!]]
And the idea of manually modifying the 7,623 lines of DocBook (much less
TEI) is perfectly ludicrous. In all but trivial cases this must be a
machine process, but given that element type names and attribute names
show up undifferentiated in PEs, I don't know that this is possible.
[[My reply: Remove PEs first by a preprocessor, I guess.]]
Also,
the namespace declaration must occur before the markup declaration it is
to be applied to is parsed, but unfortunately the current draft's namespace
'declaration' doesn't occur until after the prolog, when the namespace
boundaries of the various markup declarations have already been lost. IOW,
if we assume a mix of several unqualified DTDs as separate entities, we
must declare the prefix to be applied to each entity before they are mixed
together.
Murray
...........................................................................
Murray Altheim, SGML Grease Monkey
Member of Technical Staff, Tools Development & Support
Sun Microsystems, 901 San Antonio Rd., UMPK17-102, Palo Alto, CA 94303-4900
"Give a monkey the tools and he'll build a typewriter."
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From eliot at isogen.com Fri Aug 7 21:13:09 1998
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
In-Reply-To: <35CB4AEB.D06B09BD@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980807140921.00875a10@postoffice.swbell.net>
At 02:43 PM 8/7/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>I'm not sure what you mean. There is no way to declare a root element
>in a DTD. Paraphrasing Eliot Kimber, a DTD is nothing more than a
>collection of markup declarations. Nothing in a DTD actually describes
>a document, merely structures that might make up a document. The root
>element can be almost any element (RefEntry rather than Book in DocBook,
>forinstance).
Any element can be a document element. Consider:
]>
This thread I think points up what I've been saying since the beginning of
the name space discussion: the name space proposal doesn't solve any
problems that weren't either already solvable by existing means (e.g., SGML
architectures) or that can't be solved in a general way (blind syntactic
combination of declaration sets or document fragments).
All namespaces do is provide the illusion that you have some control over
the problem space. But the fact that you must rewrite both declarations and
instances in order to have something validatible suggests that there is no
more control than there was before.
There are two basic cases at work:
1. A single document that uses element types from different sources
2. The combination of otherwise independent fragments into a single
syntactic instance (e.g., use-by-reference of one document by another).
In the first case, if you use architectures to declare the mappings from
element instances to governing vocabularies, then no rewriting is necessary
in order to validate either the instance against its private DTD or against
any one of the governing vocabularies because there is no *syntactic*
interaction between the different name spaces except at the level of the
name of the attributes used to map elements to architectural names,
something that is trivially easy to disambiguate at the time a declaration
set is defined.
In the second case, if you use independent documents to manage the data and
then want to combine them, the rewriting you have to do when using
architectures is essentially the same that you must do if using name spaces:
- Generate unique element type or attribute names and transform input
instances to these new names (disambiguates name clashes). The new names
can either be arbitrarily generated (they have no semantic significance in
any case) or taken from one of the governing architectures (there could be
more than one architecture governing a single element).
- Generate new architectural mapping attribute names (equivalent to
namespace prefixes in function) where two documents use the same attribute
name for different architectures (unlikely but possible) and use these new
names to describe the mapping.
- Generate new declarations reflecting the new names (pointless but
possible--since you are combining things blindly, there's no benefit in
building local declarations that allow the resulting instance to validate,
especially as the document can still be validated against the architectural
DTDs as in case (1). The only value to local declarations would be for
attribute default specification, but that doesn't require any content model
munging and so is very simple to do).
The result will be single document with no name clashes and the mapping of
element instances to architectural element types preserved. The result can
still be validated against any of the governing architectures.
Note that if you want to craft the union of two previously uncombined
architectures (DTDs) then you do so by creating a new architecture that
reflects the crafted result. While the combination can be started by a
machine, it requires human intelligence in the general case to finish the
combination because either arbitrary or aesthetic choices need to be made.
The definition of document structures is a creative act and therefore
cannot be completely computerized.
Architectures also have the advantage that, unlike name spaces, they
provide *both* a definition of vocabulary and a definition of semantics
(although how the semantics might be defined is up to the creator of the
architecture). Because architectures use normal DTD syntax for defining
their vocabulary and minimal validation rules, they are grounding in an
existing and stable standardized syntax (SGML/XML DTDs) and do not require
the invention of any additional syntax or processing machinery to enable
validation of documents against vocabulary and structure/syntax rules.
Cheers,
E.
--
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer
ISOGEN International Corp.
2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004
www.isogen.com
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From saiyar at unidial.com Fri Aug 7 22:22:18 1998
From: saiyar at unidial.com (Shyam Aiyar)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <35CB5EC7.EB3B306D@unidial.com>
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Fri Aug 7 22:39:05 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:38 2004
Subject: XSchema Spec - Element Declarations (Section 2.2), Draft 6
Message-ID:
Below is the latest version of the Element Declarations section of the XSchema
draft. There are two innovations:
1) In keeping with our attempt to scale the latest namespace draft, the prefix
and ns attributes have been added to the ElementDecl element. These provide a
prefix for DTD conversion and a namespace name for resolution. Hopefully,
this means that XSchemas will be ready to run with namespaces.
2) After much debate, which still has some loud dissent, I've added the Model
element to hold the content model for elements. It allows documentation of
the content model separately from documentation of the element; it also will
allow for friendlier containerization of content models in processing. Or so
I hope.
As always, a prettier HTML version of this will be posted shortly at
http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xschema. (I'm having problems with AOL's FTP services
again, so it may be tomorrow...)
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
2.2 Element Declarations
Element declarations in XSchemas are made using the ElementDecl element and
its contents:
The XSC:Name attribute identifies the name of the element, and is required. An
element declaration would look like:
...additionalElementInformation...
This declaration would declare an element named "Species", which would appear
in an instance as:
...content...
The Name attribute must be unique within the set of elements, as it provides
the name of the element as declared here, and is also used by other elements
to refer to this element in their content model declarations. The Name
attribute must also match the Name production in the XML 1.0 spec.
(Effectively, this requires element names to begin with a letter, underscore,
or colon.)
The id attribute, if it appears, must be unique within the document. This
attribute may be used to uniquely identify this ElementDecl element for
reference using XPointers and other tools. The prefix attribute identifies the
prefix that will be applied to this elements and its attributes during
conversion to DTDs, unless overridden in the attribute declaration itself. The
ns attribute identifies the URI which functions as the namespace name for this
element and its attributes. Namespace processing is covered further in Section
3.0, "XSchema and Namespaces".
The Root attribute provides authoring tools with a guide for which elements
are likely root elements for documents. This is intended to simplify the
choices presented to authors during document composition. Composition tools
could use this to build a menu of likely starting points for a document. The
Root attribute is purely a suggestion and does not require any action on the
part of the processor.
Note that an element must declare a content model of some type, using the
Model element, even if that content model is empty. Documentation (in the Doc
element), non-XSchema extensions (in the More element) and attribute
declarations (using AttDef elements) are optional.
Documentation about the element, additional extensions, content-model
information, and attribute information are stored as sub-elements of the
ElementDecl element. Documentation is covered in 2.6.1, Documentation
Extensions. Additional extensions are covered in 2.6.2, Further Extensions.
Content Models are covered in 2.3, Content Model Declarations, and attributes
are covered in 2.4, Attribute Declarations.
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From hankr at dnai.com Fri Aug 7 22:57:14 1998
From: hankr at dnai.com (Hank Ratzesberger)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: XML-RPC
References: <35CB473E.4131B376@dnai.com> <35CB4DFF.8981FDFC@Eng.Sun.COM>
Message-ID: <35CB6896.19ECFBC8@dnai.com>
I can see that its a bit strange. I am not trying to create another RPC
spec, we have a product based on DCE or native RPC. dHTML makes a
reasonable layout mechanism. What if you want to deliver the layout,
but not necessarily the data?
Java is an excellent cross platform solution, and we support Java as a
client language. If you don't want to use java, but get cross platform
results, then the browser as client seems to be a reasonable solution.
Further, if you want to script the application, then either http server
or browser needs to know how to parse the script, make the call and
return the data.
Well, I was under the impression from such sites as
http://www.scripting.com/frontier5/xml/code/rpc.html
that there was some interest in a standard notation, but perhaps the fun
is writing your own?
Hank
David Brownell wrote:
>
> Hank Ratzesberger wrote:
> >
> > Is anyone working with XML-RPC? I am interested in what the DTD would
> > look like for both a SSI RPC invocation and for one invoked at the
> > client side in a browser.
>
> IMHO you just send application-specific documents. No standard DTD
> needed, beyond what the applications already use.
>
> The world doesn't need more RPC systems ...
>
> - Dave
--
--------------------
Hank Ratzesberger
hankr@dnai.com
--------------------
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From mrc at allette.com.au Sat Aug 8 00:28:23 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: XSchema question
References: <002f01bdc215$91b6a5d0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <35CB7FC1.41F200B0@allette.com.au>
Don Park wrote:
> To me, DTD is synonymous with the Dodo bird. Its
> extinction, as well as the
> extinction of Dodo bird hunters (DTD writers), is
> inevitable. Document
> designers and data sculpters cometh...
While I grant you that either of those titles would look
truly magnificent on a business card, it seems that you
might be attributing them with an in-built set of skills.
Are the Spice Girls really better than Handel because their
music gets played on electric instuments?
We humble crafters of the DTD have worked well with the
tools we have been given - it's honest work. Given a chance
and many years of toil, some of the younger from our ranks
may one day even become real Document Designers.
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www:
http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
_______________________________________________________________
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From samg at fundtech.com Sat Aug 8 00:45:19 1998
From: samg at fundtech.com (Sam Gentile)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Message-ID: <000601bdc254$faaa2d20$5100000a@ftc_samg>
We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which discusses
schemas. It is not clear from the document what a schema is used for or what
it's purpose is. Is it for designing the XML buffer only or is it read by
the parser? Is it an extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is there one?
We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
Can you do this in XML:?
<1>
<1>test1>
1>
Can they have the same name or this the namespace extension we have been
hearing about? What are namespaces? Are they in the spec now?
Thanks very much,
Sam Gentile
Senior Software Engineer
Fundtech Corporation
samg@fundtech.com
Sam Gentile
Senior Software Engineer
Fundtech Corporation
samg@fundtech.com
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From Nicolas at DigitalAirways.com Sat Aug 8 00:53:49 1998
From: Nicolas at DigitalAirways.com (Nicolas Silberzahn)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Paris XML98: Dealing with the Electronic Patient Record variability: Object Oriented XML
Message-ID: <01BDC266.7057D8E0.Nicolas@DigitalAirways.com>
Bonjour,
My presentation
"Dealing with the Electronic Patient Record variability: Object Oriented
XML"
Presented on the workshop "SGML/XML in Healthcare", May 18th 1998
accompanying the GCA SGML/XML Europe ?98 Conference Paris
is available at:
http://www.digitalairways.com/NiS/ParisXML98/
OOXML is new way to add behaviors to XML Documents: Much more powerfull
than Stylesheets & Much easier to build and maintain than core Java code.
Summary:
The Electronic Patient Record (EPR) is complex, loosely structured, highly
variable and unpredictable. It is therefore difficult to modelize.
Traditional systems do not fully satisfy the demand for an EPR for clinical
on-line use. The SGML-XML approach seems to satisfy the need of a data
model able to capture the full range of clinical information in a format
still suitable for automatic handling.
Unfortunately, the navigation among the record components relies to date on
proposals that do not offer sufficient capabilities to deal with the EPR
complexity and variability.
The Object Oriented XML that we propose, which considers each XML Element
as an object that comes with its methods, could considerably increase the
possibility of an XML document.
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From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Sat Aug 8 01:01:54 1998
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: XML media types
Message-ID: <199808072258.PAA28708@boethius.eng.sun.com>
Following is the body of a message from Jim Whitehead to the W3C XML
SIG. Please do not reply to this message or attribute its authorship
to me. -- Jon
========================================================================
FYI, the IETF has issued the document for XML media types registration as
Internet Informational Request for Comments 2376, and IANA has added
text/xml and application/xml to the list of registered media types
maintained at:
ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/media-types/
So, text/xml and application/xml are now official Internet media types.
The RFC itself can be retrieved from:
ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2376.txt
Since this document has significant discussion on i18n and security issues,
perhaps a link to it from the W3C's (and other third-party XML resource
pages) XML pages would be helpful in achieving compliance with this
document.
- Jim
Here is the forwarded IETF announcement message:
A new Request for Comments is now available in online RFC libraries.
RFC 2376:
Title: XML Media Types
Author(s): E. Whitehead, M. Murata
Status: Informational
Date: July 1998
Mailbox: ejw@ics.uci.edu, murata@fxis.fujixerox.co.jp
Pages: 15
Characters: 32143
Updates/Obsoletes/See Also: None
URL: ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2376.txt
This document proposes two new media subtypes, text/xml and
application/xml, for use in exchanging network entities which are
conforming Extensible Markup Language (XML). XML entities are
currently exchanged via the HyperText Transfer Protocol on the World
Wide Web, are an integral part of the WebDAV protocol for remote web
authoring, and are expected to have utility in many domains.
This memo provides information for the Internet community. It does
not specify an Internet standard of any kind. Distribution of this
memo is unlimited.
This announcement is sent to the IETF list and the RFC-DIST list.
Requests to be added to or deleted from the IETF distribution list
should be sent to IETF-REQUEST@IETF.ORG. Requests to be
added to or deleted from the RFC-DIST distribution list should
be sent to RFC-DIST-REQUEST@RFC-EDITOR.ORG.
Details on obtaining RFCs via FTP or EMAIL may be obtained by sending
an EMAIL message to rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG with the message body
help: ways_to_get_rfcs. For example:
To: rfc-info@RFC-EDITOR.ORG
Subject: getting rfcs
help: ways_to_get_rfcs
Requests for special distribution should be addressed to either the
author of the RFC in question, or to RFC-Manager@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Unless
specifically noted otherwise on the RFC itself, all RFCs are for
unlimited distribution.echo
Submissions for Requests for Comments should be sent to
RFC-EDITOR@RFC-EDITOR.ORG. Please consult RFC 2223, Instructions to RFC
Authors, for further information.
Joyce K. Reynolds and Alegre Ramos
USC/Information Sciences Institute
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 8 01:05:00 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (was RE: unsubscribe)
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980807234707.78176a10@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Let's not try to discuss list management issues - Henry and I will take
care of that. (many people are irritated by discussions of unsubscription).
And smart ones may guess that I or Henry mail people without announcing it
to the list.
Note also that its should NEVER be necessary to quote the XML-DEV signature
in your message as just happened.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com Sat Aug 8 01:21:25 1998
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: XSchema Spec - Element Declarations (Section 2.2), Draft 6
Message-ID: <724B33822AE5D011B9FD0060B0576B88E5448F@WARWICK>
Sorry to reply without researching.
I'm definitely in favor of the MODEL element per my some thoughts on
inheritance message of a few weeks ago. I assume that MODEL is pretty
much equivalent to GROUP in XML-Data? Can MODEL include other MODEL
elements?
I'd would really like it if the attributes could be grouped also (and
also contain other attribute groups). That would make it very easy to
replicate a group of attributes from another element. Don't know how
complex the impact that would have on the parser.
-----Original Message-----
From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:SimonStL@classic.msn.com]
Sent: Friday, August 07, 1998 3:39 PM
To: Xml-Dev (E-mail)
Subject: XSchema Spec - Element Declarations (Section 2.2), Draft 6
Below is the latest version of the Element Declarations section of the
XSchema
...
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From david at megginson.com Sat Aug 8 04:16:27 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <000601bdc254$faaa2d20$5100000a@ftc_samg>
References: <000601bdc254$faaa2d20$5100000a@ftc_samg>
Message-ID: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
Sam Gentile writes:
> We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which discusses
> schemas. It is not clear from the document what a schema is used for or what
> it's purpose is. Is it for designing the XML buffer only or is it read by
> the parser? Is it an extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
>
> Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is there one?
> We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
Sam:
It might help if you clarified a little. What do you mean by an "XML
buffer"?
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From donpark at quake.net Sat Aug 8 04:55:37 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <004001bdc276$bd796160$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Marcus,
>While I grant you that either of those titles would look
>truly magnificent on a business card, it seems that you
>might be attributing them with an in-built set of skills.
>Are the Spice Girls really better than Handel because their
>music gets played on electric instuments?
I did not say Spice Girls are better than Handel but they certainly look
better, eh?;-)
>We humble crafters of the DTD have worked well with the
>tools we have been given - it's honest work. Given a chance
>and many years of toil, some of the younger from our ranks
>may one day even become real Document Designers.
Better tools and mediums will free us from that and allow us to concentrate
on semantics and not the syntax. At that point, styles will become more
important. That was all I was saying. Maybe I should have said that all
the Dodo birds moved to New Yord and became fashion consultants.
Best,
Don Park
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 8 05:07:26 1998
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Offtopic was.Re: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID: <042001bdc27a$153a8fc0$11addccf@ix.netcom.com>
Tim,
why did'nt you tell us about this.
We should all support it.
http://www.webstandards.org
Frank
Frank Boumphrey
XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm
Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Bray
To: John Cowan ; XML Dev
Date: Friday, August 07, 1998 12:38 PM
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
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From cfranks at microsoft.com Sat Aug 8 08:47:52 1998
From: cfranks at microsoft.com (Charles Frankston)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID:
John Cowan wrote:
> This is quite separate from locality *as such*; locality of prefixes
> just means that a given prefix isn't legal outside the scope of
> its declaration. However, following the Algol precedents, you have
> allowed declarations to supersede conflicting outer declarations
> and to coexist with conflicting non-overlapping declarations.
> There is some, if not overwhelming, software engineering experience
> to indicate that this is a Bad Idea.
>
I find an assertion that "software engineering experience" has shown that
Algol style lexical scoping is a bad idea quite surprising. Which school of
software engineering believes this? Certainly not the one I went to.
John --
I think you and some others on this list are being insufficiently
imaginative in tackling the problem of figuring out how to validate
documents that use the namespace spec. I believe it is possible to do
fragment validation against DTDs, if that is so desired. However this
certainly cannot be accomplished without some modification of the mechanics
of DTD validation, as Tim outlined. I.e. pre-processing the DTD and the
instance to convert all names to URI, name pairs, and what some have called
fragment validation using as the root of each fragment any element that
introduces a tag from a new namespace. A new namespace for this purpose is
defined as one from a different namespace than its parent.
I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping makes it any
harder to do than the old PI based namespace proposal. It may make it
harder to think about it. The fact that the namespace prefix may actually
be declared physically in the document after the DOCTYPE doesn't matter. At
the time when the instance is to be compared to see if it matches the
declaration in the DTD, the prefix to URI mapping is available. Can you do
this without modifying your validation code? Certainly not.
However, the approach I've outlined above still has a severe problem, which
I don't think is so easily solved. In order to do this form of validaton,
what gets put in the DTD is the prefix, and not the URI. That is a fatal
flaw, because it makes it impossible to re-use a DTD for more than one
document unless all documents that use that DTD use the same prefix for the
same URI. That elevates the prefix to the same status as the URI --
something one must take care to keep globally unique. The prefix is not
syntactically suited to this task.
For that reason, and because of other well known deficiencies in DTDs, I
think the issue of validation and namespaces is better dealt with in the
context of a whole new schema language. The XML-Data submission clearly
showed how this could work. The new namespace proposal does no violence to
XML-Data's use of namespaces. I would therefore rather spend my time
working on the new schema language, as the XML WG will shortly be doing,
than patching DTDs.
(The XSchema work that's been going on in XML-Dev is hopefully equally
adaptable -- the volume of mail is simply too high so I have not been
following it closely. The key is the use of XML syntax, which enables one
to use namespace declarations in the schema in a manner that mimics the
instance.)
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 8 13:31:38 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:39 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980808123103.094fc4de@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Thanks Charles,
I found this a useful and optimistic review. I'd like to take it as a
starting point for a discussion about where we might go next. I'll add some
comments of my own about 'XML validation' to try to tie in some historical
perspective.
[I think the discussion on XML-DEV in the last 6 days has been extremely
valuable. There are clearly people to whom the new proposal has come as a
shock and it will take time to readjust. In all our discussions we must be
extremely aware that a lot of personal efforts and ideas have gone into XML
and that we should avoid upsetting people (usually unintentionally). It is
clear that XML-DEVers are making a real effort to be constructive, even
those who wished for different approaches. Keep it up!]
At 23:46 07/08/98 -0700, Charles Frankston wrote:
[...]
>
>John --
>
>I think you and some others on this list are being insufficiently
>imaginative in tackling the problem of figuring out how to validate
>documents that use the namespace spec. I believe it is possible to do
>fragment validation against DTDs, if that is so desired. However this
I agree with this belief (although I haven't worked it out in detail). I
think there is a critical mass of people who feel the same way (and I
actually think that JohnC is among them!).
>certainly cannot be accomplished without some modification of the mechanics
>of DTD validation, as Tim outlined. I.e. pre-processing the DTD and the
>instance to convert all names to URI, name pairs, and what some have called
>fragment validation using as the root of each fragment any element that
>introduces a tag from a new namespace. A new namespace for this purpose is
>defined as one from a different namespace than its parent.
>
>I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping makes it any
>harder to do than the old PI based namespace proposal. It may make it
Again, my assessment of the discussion is that no one has adopted the
slogan "PI workable: attributes unworkable". A few people clearly feel
namespaces as such do not (yet) provide their solution and a greater number
are concerned that there are hidden dragons which haven't been confronted.
One such dragon is the concern about retrofitting namespaces to: XPointer,
XLL, XSL, DOM, etc. I take it as axiomatic - and I'd suggest XML-DEVers
also do - that those responsible for these activities are actively working
on how to make them namespace-compliant. This may, of course, throw up
technical problems but I don't think we need to worry about convincing
people of its necessity.
This raises the question of what is XML 1.0 , 1.1, etc. It is absolute that
namespaces have not broken XML1.0. XML parsers (including SAX-aware ones)
are not broken by any decisions on namespaces. Those who had a
non-namespace XML solution/product will find it still works. Those who used
colonised names with their own application semantics will find they still
work. This will include those who had colonised DTDs used for validation
and other things.
Note that we do not - at present - have any final REC that specifies how
any XML element or attribute should be interpreted (other than XML1.0's
xml:space and lang, and the WD for XLL - perhaps there are others in XSL.)
This means that if an application receives a namespace-aware document it
can simply ignore the attributes it doesn't understand. The problem of how
it becomes namespace-aware is what we are addressing at present, but we
should remember that we are only just starting - 19980802 has not broken
anything of permanence.
>harder to think about it. The fact that the namespace prefix may actually
>be declared physically in the document after the DOCTYPE doesn't matter. At
>the time when the instance is to be compared to see if it matches the
>declaration in the DTD, the prefix to URI mapping is available. Can you do
>this without modifying your validation code? Certainly not.
This is an important point - I have always assumed that the final
implementations of the full power of namespaces will require substantial
software development. Most of us have also assumed it will have to involve
the conventional DTD at some stage. The DTD might be preprocessed, or
perhaps multiple DTDs might be required for a single document instance.
>
>However, the approach I've outlined above still has a severe problem, which
>I don't think is so easily solved. In order to do this form of validaton,
>what gets put in the DTD is the prefix, and not the URI. That is a fatal
>flaw, because it makes it impossible to re-use a DTD for more than one
>document unless all documents that use that DTD use the same prefix for the
>same URI. That elevates the prefix to the same status as the URI --
>something one must take care to keep globally unique. The prefix is not
>syntactically suited to this task.
Agreed.
>
>For that reason, and because of other well known deficiencies in DTDs, I
>think the issue of validation and namespaces is better dealt with in the
>context of a whole new schema language. The XML-Data submission clearly
>showed how this could work. The new namespace proposal does no violence to
>XML-Data's use of namespaces. I would therefore rather spend my time
>working on the new schema language, as the XML WG will shortly be doing,
>than patching DTDs.
>
>(The XSchema work that's been going on in XML-Dev is hopefully equally
>adaptable -- the volume of mail is simply too high so I have not been
>following it closely. The key is the use of XML syntax, which enables one
>to use namespace declarations in the schema in a manner that mimics the
>instance.)
I think this is the key point. The semantics of dealing with namespaces
cannot be managed by conventional DTDs. We shall certainly need schemas. It
may be possible to manage these 'below the surface' (e.g. convert a public
DTD to a schema, transform this to be namespace aware and then retransform
to a DTD for syntactic validation.).
It could have been useful to manage prefixes by a PE like:
but this isn't legal. However, if we transform to a schema we can use
(general) entities to do this (e.g. &foo;:CHAPTER) and we can retransform.
(As someone whose discipline is based on Fourier transformation I find this
a natural approach). So we shall need software, but I don't think it's
horrendous.
>
I'll now give my perception of possible approaches based on my (rather
inadequate) knowledge of SGML. I tackled this namespace problem 3 years ago
when starting to develop CML and I found I need namespaces (I used
constructs like CML.MOL - I even had a language called XML, e.g.
XML.ARRAY). I asked on comp.text.sgml how to do this and got the following
responses:
- there is no mechanism for combining DTDs
- use SUBDOC (essentially compartmentalised information components in a
document)
- use HyTime (or some other sort of architectural forms)
The problem was that SUBDOC was not supported by any free software (I was
quoted a special introductory price of $10K for a system that would do
SUBDOC). HyTime was also unavailable for free (and it was also effectively
impossible to find out anything about it.) So my conclusion was that in
1996 (XML 0.0):
multiple SGML DTDs could be combined but only within large organisations
who could pay for elaborate tools. Interoperability with third parties was
not supported.
[A lemma was that large academic projects like TEI might also manage this.]
There is therefore no 'golden age' of multi-DTD working that the current
namespace proposal breaks. The key aspects of the current proposal are:
- software must be widely (freely) available
- recipients of multi-namespace documents must be able to use generic tools
- it should be possible to combine chunks of information (information
components) in a smallish variety of simple ways. The more complex the
suggestions, the harder they will be to implement.
- global validation for a multinamespace document is likely to be
difficult if authors are allowed flexibility in the way these are combined.
Validation for a very rigid document type should not be difficult.
There seem to be the following ways forward:
(A) SUBDOC-like (islands of validity). I'm not familiar with SUBDOC but I
guess this requires software that can identify a subcomponent (probably a
subtree) in a document and start up a validating parser for that component
alone.
(B) Architectural forms. AFAIK the new namespace proposal neither supports
nor invalidates AFs. I assume (and hope) that their adherents can build
prototype systems that will work with namespaced documents.
(C) XLink (Tim Bray's - and my - preferred solution). The information
components are kept in separate files and are transcluded rather than
included in documents. Parsing, including validation, is a separate
activity for each file. There is clearly a requirement for software to
manage the identification and reassembly of these subtrees. We shall also
need experience in how documents should be authored. I don't always like
the idea that a document with 100 molecules has to have 100 separate file
using XLink (though it provides excellent normalisation). I'd feel happier
if I could be sure that the linking mechanism always found the right file.
(D) Schemas. I am delighted by the progress that the XSC group has made
over the last few days - they are clearly optimistic that NS's can be
fitted to XSchema. That's great. If nothing else, this should be a superb
basis for future schema work - either expanding XSchema or
XML-data/W3C-based.
A word of caution. I thought that XSchema would take a day or two. It's
taken 2-3 months. That's with a high rate of activity. So we should accept
that namespace APIs/schemas etc will take a month or so to build.
I know it's a slack time of year but it's catalysed (in my mind) by the XML
DevCon in Montreal in 12 days time. It would be nice to get a feeling as to
what activities people are thinking of for implementing namespaces. So far
we have had a few suggestions, particularly James Clark, John Cowan, David
Megginson and the XSchema group. If DavidM reads this, it might be useful
if he can suggest how SAX might react to namespaces...
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From mrc at allette.com.au Sat Aug 8 13:49:42 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: XSchema question
References: <004001bdc276$bd796160$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <35CC3B96.8190FA0B@allette.com.au>
Don Park wrote:
> Better tools and mediums will free us from that and allow
> us to concentrate
> on semantics and not the syntax. At that point, styles
> will become more
> important. That was all I was saying.
I'm probably just touchy about this because it's the second
time this week (in different places) that it's come up, but
I think that most DTD designers feel that they are covering
as many bases as they can, given the perhaps limited
knowledge they may have about how the data will eventually
be used. Syntax isn't really a big part of DTD creation; the
majority of the effort currently goes into data analysis. I
agree completely that better tools will make life easier for
all of us, but that extends to those who don't really
understand what they're doing as well as those who do. Those
who rely on flash tools over underlying knowledge to solve
their problems may still ultimately be disappointed.
Lou Reynolds (former substantial shareholder in EBT (now
Inso)) left us with a great line when he was in Australia a
few years ago - "Another year and we'll all be drinking
champagne out of fire hoses". While I continue to believe
that this will be the case, it's hard to forget that it was
uttered by one who is no longer in the game ... :-)
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www:
http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
_______________________________________________________________
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From david at megginson.com Sat Aug 8 14:48:31 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <199808081247.IAA00227@unready.megginson.com>
Charles Frankston writes:
> I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping
> makes [DTD validation] any harder to do than the old PI based
> namespace proposal.
This claim is incorrect, though the culprit is the local scoping and
defaulting rather than the declaration mechanism itself.
XML 1.0 DTDs know only about one-part, unresolved names (i.e. "foo" or
"bar:foo", not null + "foo" or "http://www.megginson.com/" + "foo").
Without local scoping and defaulting, there was still guaranteed to be
a one-to-one relationship between unresolved names and resolved
(two-part) names, and thus, only one XML unresolved name for each
element type and one element type for each name; as a result, it was
possible to write a DTD for _any_ document that used namespaces.
With local scoping and defaulting, there is a many-to-many
relationship between unresolved names and resolved names, and thus,
possibly more than one XML 1.0 name for each element type and more
than one element type for each name.
Tim has rightly pointed out that DTD validation is possible only on a
small subset of the documents allowed by the new spec -- that is,
documents use only one unresolved name for each element type and one
element type for each unresolved name. He also rightly points out
that any XML document can be mechanically transformed so that it
belongs to this subset.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From david at megginson.com Sat Aug 8 15:10:41 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980808123103.094fc4de@pop3.demon.co.uk>
References:
<3.0.1.16.19980808123103.094fc4de@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <199808081309.JAA00360@unready.megginson.com>
Peter Murray-Rust writes:
> I know it's a slack time of year but it's catalysed (in my mind) by
> the XML DevCon in Montreal in 12 days time. It would be nice to get
> a feeling as to what activities people are thinking of for
> implementing namespaces. So far we have had a few suggestions,
> particularly James Clark, John Cowan, David Megginson and the
> XSchema group. If DavidM reads this, it might be useful if he can
> suggest how SAX might react to namespaces...
I'm looking forward to talking with as many of you as possible during
the XML Dev Day(s) in Montreal. I first raised the issue of SAX and
namespaces on XML-Dev a few weeks ago -- after reading dozens of
postings and private messages, I am convinced that the only clean
solution is to define a special data type for two-part names,
something like the following:
package org.xml.sax;
public interface Name
{
public String getURI ();
public String getLocalName ();
}
This, however, is the easy part; the hard part is figuring out how to
work this into SAX. Here are some of the problems
1. How should SAX make the prefix map available to applications? One
option is to create a new handler type, called NamespaceHandler:
public interface NamespaceHandler
{
public void startNamespaceScope (String prefix, String uri);
public void endNamespaceScope (String prefix);
}
Another option is to create a new type of object called a Namespace
Resolver:
public interface NamespaceResolver
{
public Name resolveIndependentName (String name);
public Name resolveDependentName (String name);
}
This could be set by the NamespaceHandler:
public interface NamespaceHandler
{
public void setNamespaceResolver (NamespaceResolver resolver);
}
2. Should DocumentHandler be replaced or extended?
3. Does AttributeList now require a two-part lookup key, or should it
stick to the unresolved (one-part) names?
4. Is namespace processing a core SAX service or a filter on top of
SAX?
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From jonathan at texcel.no Sat Aug 8 15:18:49 1998
From: jonathan at texcel.no (Jonathan Robie)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
In-Reply-To: <35CB1F54.8F13ACC1@locke.ccil.org>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980808091907.00c72100@pop.mindspring.com>
I got way behind on XML-Dev during the finalization of namespaces. What
exactly is IBTWSH?
Thanks!
Jonathan
jonathan@texcel.no
Texcel Research
http://www.texcel.no
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From tbray at textuality.com Sat Aug 8 17:32:47 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: WebStandards.org
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980808080709.00bfd990@207.34.179.21>
At 11:08 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Frank Boumphrey wrote:
>why did'nt you tell us about this.
>We should all support it.
>http://www.webstandards.org
Gimme a break, just found out about it at noon Friday. Yes, I think
it's a worthwhile effort. It's not my idea, the other guys on
the list dreamed it up and launched it. -T.
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From eliot at isogen.com Sat Aug 8 19:07:17 1998
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <042001bdc27a$153a8fc0$11addccf@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980808120229.00885da0@postoffice.swbell.net>
[NOTE: The following is mostly an incoherent rant that is only marginally
connected to the WSP. Consider it a potential source of comedy relief--no
offence is meant to the WSP or its members--WEK.]
At 11:08 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Frank Boumphrey wrote:
>Tim,
>
>why did'nt you tell us about this.
>
>We should all support it.
>
>http://www.webstandards.org
This looks interesting, and the list of names involved is certainly
impressive, so I take it as a given that there is something significant
here, but I'm wondering just exactly *what* the WSP can actually do to
achieve its mission. Here's what I took to be the relevant info from the
mission statement on the subject Web site:
"Our goal is to support these core standards and encourage browser makers
to do the same, thereby ensuring simple, affordable access to Web
technologies for all."
Realizing that the Web site claims it's not officially open until Monday
(10 Aug 1998), I find it odd that there's nothing about *how* this
organization (or any similar organization) can actually meet this goal.
What power or authority would the WSP (or any similar group) have that the
W3C, as the authority that issues the "standards", does not have? [The W3C
does not make standards, it makes recommendations, but that's a fine
semantic point that seems to be lost on 99.9999% of the populace.]
Is it the intent of the WSP to be a clearing house for user complaints? In
the absence of good faith on the part of the tool creators, the only
recourse against failure to implement standards is user backlash. I can see
that a user advocacy group could provide some benefit here (the Web
equivalent of Ralph Naders' group?). But it's not clear what else might be
done or how the WSP could serve in this capacity.
The major vendors have already learned that users will take what they're
given (imagine trying to earn a living in the information management
industry and not use computers that run Microsoft software--it's pretty
hard). Is it realistic to think that we can change Microsoft's practices?
Because that's who we're talking about, Microsoft--Netscape, now that
they've seen that standards and openness are their only hope of
differentiation from MS, is on the side of right and good. What other
vendors do we have to fear? Sun? They've got Java and everything to gain by
it being a standard. Inso? As EBT, they've been good standards players from
the start and have excellent technical resources who know how to do the
right thing and will, I predict, do it (not that they play much outside the
big-industry nitch market in any case). IBM? They're essentially pure user
and understand the value of standards to themselves and their customers.
Editor vendors? Maybe, but who besides MS has enough market share outside
the core SGML industry to even have an effect? HP? They're in the same
boat as Sun. Adobe? Maybe, but Adobe has its own de facto standard, PDF,
that nobody, least of all Adobe, seems to care about formally standardizing
(why should they when the US government declared it a standard by requiring
its use for electronic document interchange--yet another monopoly granted
by the government {anyone remember the railroad industry circa 1880}?).
Adobe doesn't make browsers and their SGML/XML editor can't implement the
style standards without being completely rewritten anyway. Arbortext only
survives on the basis of ADEPT*Editor being as complete as possible an
implementation of the SGML and XML standards (that's why people buy it).
SoftQuad is in the same boat as Arbortext, but with less market share (but
better prospects for producing a low-cost, high-value XML/SGML editor given
their technology base). Corel tries hard and has good channels, but they've
never been able to lever Word out of the way--their SGML support is good
(if not perfect), but has never been marketed effectively.
It seems to me that the real question is: how do we bring pressure to bear
on Microsoft to support and implement standards? In fairness to MS, I
should note that all the *technical* people I know at Microsoft (which is
an admittedly small sample) have all been consistent in their commitment to
standards and have demonstrated the ability to understand the standards
sufficient to enable correct implementation of them (of course, most of the
people I know I Microsoft I know because of their work on the development
of XML). I'd like to think that this sample is representative. Certainly
as a developer of technology, Microsoft is capable of doing whatever it
decides to do. The question is, what will they decide to do and why.
Certainly it is not the technologists that make the business decisions at
Microsoft (if it was, they wouldn't be where they are today [and we
wouldn't be having this discussion because we'd either still be mired in a
swamp of competing and incompatible information system platforms, already
have true standards-based systems, or still complaining about IBM as the
Big Evil]).
But as a business driven by an imperative to make money, Microsoft has
consistently shown a disdain for standards and the needs of its customers.
It essentially owns the information systems marketplace on PCs, which means
most of the desktops in the world. It has a significant share of the
back-end market (at ISOGEN, most of the people working on workstations use
Microsoft software to do most of their work--what does that tell you?).
Except for Adobe's PDF, Microsoft owns the data formats (and therefore the
data) of most of the world's documents and this doesn't seem to be near to
changing. Putting RTF or Excel into XML form won't change that situation
much (although it will make it marginally easier to do stuff with an
otherwise proprietary format because you'll be able to apply normal SGML
and XML tools to it, even if you can't get reliable documentation for what
it is you've got).
Steve Newcomb often stresses that standards are contracts between data
owners and users and the creators of tools that support those owners and
users and he's 100% right. Which begs the question: what higher authority
do the signatories of those contracts appeal to do resolve conflicts?
National and international standards have some legal authority as contracts
because they are created by national bodies that can legally and legimately
put the weight of their countries behind them: they can, for example, enact
laws that require the use of certain standards. The standards created by
ANSI or DIN or ISO have been created by bodies that have some authority
derived from the people governed by the governments that sponsor the
standards authorities.
The W3C, by contrast, is a consortium of vendors and users. It has no
formal authority. It is not an agent of any government. It does not
derive, however indirectly, from the will of the people. Therefore, it has
absolutely no leverage by which to coerce or encourage respect for the
recommendations it creates except the persuasive force of whatever
arguments it might make or the degree to which it can influence popular
opinion so as to change consumption habits. But since its members are the
very organizations that need to be convinced to implement these standards,
it's not realistic to expect the W3C to beat hard on its largest member. (I
suppose it could bring civil suits against member companies that failed to
live up to their agreements as consortium members, but who would pay for
the cost of such a suit? How likely would Microsoft be to remain a W3C
member if the W3C sued it?).
That leaves only users themselves to demand that vendors do the right
thing. Can the WSP lead that fight? Can it effect a world-wide boycott of
Internet Explorer? Can it save us from our own laziness? I don't know--I
hope so.
If babies were dying or cute fuzzy creatures were going extinct because
browsers weren't implementing HTML 4.0 correctly, I'd have more confidence.
But the only thing that's at stake is our freedom from vendor oppression,
something that few people even seem to realize as a threat and fewer still
have the actual power or will to avoid (what operating system am I running?
what browser do I use? what scheduling program do I manage with? what
programming language do I hack in? do I want to use any of them? No. Do I,
as long as I want to work as an IS consultant who can pick clients that
aren't Unix-only, non-government-contractor shops, have a choice? No.).
People aren't rioting in the streets because there are only two cable
companies in the US or that 90% of all media outlets are owned by four
corporations (or something close to that) or that the number of one-paper
towns has increased dramatically in the last 50 years. So why should they
care that a single corporation owns 90% of their data (by owning the
definitions of its form and the software they have to use to access and
modify it?)?
So I'm wondering what the true motivation of the WSP is: publicity
generator? counter to the W3C? public action group ala Nader's Raiders? The
Green Peace of the Web? Tax shelter? It's definitely not clear from the
WSP Web site exactly what it *is* or what it plans to *do*. I'd like to
know more.
Cheers,
E.
--
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer
ISOGEN International Corp.
2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004
www.isogen.com
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Sat Aug 8 19:21:02 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: WebStandards.org (Off Topic)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980808080709.00bfd990@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Tim Bray wrote:
> At 11:08 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Frank Boumphrey wrote:
> >why did'nt you tell us about this.
> >We should all support it.
> >http://www.webstandards.org
>
> Gimme a break, just found out about it at noon Friday. Yes, I think
> it's a worthwhile effort. It's not my idea, the other guys on
> the list dreamed it up and launched it. -T.
I think it is a great effort as well. My only problem with it is
that none of the web pages on the site validate. I find it hard to take
an organization pushing web standards seriously if they can't even follow
the standards themselves. I wrote Jefferey Zeldman, the site designer,
and told him basically that...
On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Jeffrey Zeldman wrote:
> chris:
> thanks for writing.
>
> i do use harmless workarounds to avoid display errors.
>
> i do this because the browsers don't support the standards.
>
> for instance, i need to include a non-breaking space after i close
> a DIV tag, because in IE 4.01/Mac, "DIV" is not treated as a block level
> element, even though the standards say it should be.
>
> adding that non-breaking space causes the browser to follow the
> with a line break, as it is supposed to do.
>
> as other versions of explorer do. as netscape 2, 3, and 4 do.
>
> in other words, when necessary to avoid errors caused by browser
> bugs, i resort to workarounds which degrade well and cause no harm.
>
> however, those workarounds might snag an html validator.
>
> i can live with that more easily than i can live with a web page
> that is impossible to read.
>
> i did discuss this with the other WaSP members, and explained my
> rationale.
>
> but i thank you for mentioning it.
>
> in a way, it helps make the case for us.
>
> when the browser manufacturers deliver browsers that follow the
> standards, we will be free to make completely validatable html.
>
> until that day, we have to make tough choices. this is mine.
>
> jeffrey
I unfortunately disagree with his opinion. I think it is always
possible to create web pages that validate, it just involves either
sacrificing the use of some features, or recognizing that some browsers
may render the site improperly. Usually most of the "harmless" hacks
authors use to get things to display properly can be implemented in
a way that also validates, if you take the extra time to try.
http://validator.w3.org/
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From tbray at textuality.com Sat Aug 8 20:33:36 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
At 12:02 PM 8/8/98 -0500, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
>So I'm wondering what the true motivation of the WSP is: publicity
>generator? counter to the W3C? public action group ala Nader's Raiders? The
>Green Peace of the Web?
Well, IMHO, the W3C has done its job in getting some potentially useful
standards published. The W3C has not been effective as an advocacy or
bully-pulpit organization, and it's hard to see that happening, in part
because of some of the reasons raised by Eliot.
It seems quite possible that the people who organized the WSP, mostly
big-time site builders who spend other people's money to build highly
visible Web presences, are well-positioned to get some attention and do
some useful advocacy. Which is why it interests me. One interesting
discussion is, which standards to focus on... my personal bet would
be XML/CSS/DOM, because the implementations are just happening. Is
it worthwhile, at this point in history, trying to retroactively
save HTML? Real question. -Tim
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From eldred at mediaone.net Sat Aug 8 22:18:50 1998
From: eldred at mediaone.net (Eric Eldred)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
References: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CC6C61.5996736@mediaone.net>
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> At 12:02 PM 8/8/98 -0500, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
> >So I'm wondering what the true motivation of the WSP is: ....
> One interesting
> discussion is, which standards to focus on... my personal bet would
> be XML/CSS/DOM, because the implementations are just happening. Is
> it worthwhile, at this point in history, trying to retroactively
> save HTML? Real question. -Tim
I'm not sure what this has to do with xml-dev, other
than the people, but I'll continue the thread here.
I have no opinion about motives. I'm just a little guy,
who would love to find ways to publish faster both to
the web and to paper. XML certainly appeals to me, so
any encouragement that way would help. I see several
directions that would be important to pursue:
1. Talk to the *HTML editor* people. They are responsible
for foisting a lot of errors on us--I don't care whether
they are validated or not--they often produce such
garbage (Front Page, Cold Fusion) that I can't read them
with Lynx at all. The lack of a good, free XML editor is
shameful (don't ask me to use emacs).
2. I use vi and some Linux tools, but one reason I do
is that the *filters* from Blueberry and Filtrix included
in other commercial products are useless. I'm not
talking about complicated things, just elementary problems
such as curly quotes and em dashes--at some point between
OCR and a web page one needs to edit them by hand. There
needs to be some simple rule-based filter such as
Omnimark, but cheap or free. I can write some by hand
in perl, but most people can't. But dealing with the
white space problems is not trivial.
3. Let's face it: Netscape and Microsoft might be
enemies, and they might have almost all of the browser
market between them, but it will be neither necessary
nor sufficient to have them agree on web standards. Because:
3a. For example, CSS1 provides for text (left and right)
justification. Netscape 4's justification is force
justification for the last paragraph line (thus often
creating huge wordspacing on it) and Internet Explorer
4's is not force. I don't believe the standard specifies
one or the other behavior. In each case, the author has
no control. Much of the browser behavior that is
consistent between vendors is de facto standardization,
not written down anywhere.
3b. As the very example of the web pages at the
webstandards.org site shows, there will always be a
need for backward compatibility. Unfortunately, it is
the history of web browsers that has caused all these
problems, and even when version 5 browsers are
released, we still have to design our pages to account
for earlier ones, and text-only browsers such as Lynx.
I can't see that webstandards.org can do much about that.
(Well, we can stop using those features, but we don't
need an organization to tell us to stop.)
4. Given that there will for a long time be used web
browsers that can't support XML directly, why doesn't
it make the most sense to do this at the server end?
Keep pages in validated XML and filter them on the
fly to HTML (whatever level your clients support) or
even PDF? I realize there are problems with that--
who knows what combination of source will confuse or
crash this or that browser--but at least for some time
users can continue to employ the web browsers they
prefer.
5. Just what level of CSS is webstandards.org going
to mandate that Netscape and Microsoft support fully
in their version 5 browsers? Just what level of XSL?
I guess you can see there might be development
schedule considerations.
6. CSS and XML are only a few of the W3C standards.
I'd like to see some more encouragement for full
support of the Accessibility standards (and some
feedback as to how to improve them), the PICS
effort, and especially the RDF effort--there needs
to be an easier way to use metadata and more tools
that use them, such as Dublin Core and others.
7. Seems to me that Microsoft and others are mainly
interested in XML for practical, proprietary reasons:
to support their CDF "push" technology, "Chrome"
to justify buying a 350MHz Pentium II and get Microsoft
into television markets, EDI replacements as well as
on-line banking, etc. Although these efforts are
based on a standard XML, the actual implementations
are likely to be locked up and the otherwise "openness"
of XML is lost. Standards agreements go only so far.
To sum up: webstandards.org is a good idea and
deserves support. Netscape and Microsoft need to
be kept to their promises. We need to address
more closely the significance of de facto standarization.
However, we can disclose and work on some problems
without having to put pressure on those big companies
to do it for us. We can support the mozilla effort
and work on XML/XSL etc tools that can help everybody.
--
"Eric" Eric Eldred Eldritch Press
mailto:EricEldred@usa.net http://eldred.ne.mediaone.net/
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 8 22:37:32 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980808120229.00885da0@postoffice.swbell.net>
References: <042001bdc27a$153a8fc0$11addccf@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980808213754.60e70092@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 12:02 08/08/98 -0500, W. Eliot Kimber wrote [at his normal incredible
typing speed]:
>
>[NOTE: The following is mostly an incoherent rant that is only marginally
>connected to the WSP. Consider it a potential source of comedy relief--no
>offence is meant to the WSP or its members--WEK.]
Eliot's posts are always worth reading, but I suggest we don't spend a lot
of time on discussing standards in general. It's worth considering what
XML-DEV in particular can do to help the cause of interoperability.
Although we all know that many people will implement the current WDs and
REC's by themselves and for their own purposes it remains true that doing
the whole lot - in anything but a large organisation - is a largish effort.
Therefore the community in general - profit and non-profit - has found it
worth their whiles to use the SAX interface that we/DavidM have developed.
I think we have a similar opportunity with namespaces.
I'm looking forward to seeing followups on recent postings about APIs,
filters, etc. for SAX/namespaces. As several people have pointed out the
syntax can be managed and a uniquified document passed to the application.
I'm looking forward to being a consumer of such information as I've started
to think about how multiple namespaces can be fed into display/editor -
specifically for data management rather than text. I shall probably release
a JUMBO snapshot of this fairly shortly - but at present it's based on
'old' namespaces.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 8 23:00:59 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <35CC6C61.5996736@mediaone.net>
References: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980808220146.60e7c818@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 15:18 08/08/98 +0000, Eric Eldred wrote:
>Tim Bray wrote:
[...]
>
>1. Talk to the *HTML editor* people. They are responsible
>for foisting a lot of errors on us--I don't care whether
>they are validated or not--they often produce such
>garbage (Front Page, Cold Fusion) that I can't read them
>with Lynx at all. The lack of a good, free XML editor is
>shameful (don't ask me to use emacs).
Well, I use Henry Thomson's XED and I think he's created an excellent tool
- and it's free.
More generally - writing a completely generic XML editor is hard, so I
think your criticism is a bit harsh. XML is only 6 months old, and many of
its components are not yet RECs. AN XML editor has to:
- provide XML compatible with any DTD (i.e. requires an internal
validator). Do you want this validation to be done for every keystroke?
after a component has been assembled?
- manage generic text editing including images, formatting. I have been
using SUN's Swing classes - they are very good - but pretty complex. They
use a model-view-controller approach which take a bit of getting used to.
For example in the com.sun.java.swing.text package there are fifty classes.
Non-trivial.
- manage links, etc. This requires management of XPointers (not yet here),
XLL (also not yet here).
- be stylesheet driven by XSL (also not yet here).
So far we have only considered text. We have also to be able to edit
structure and also deal with arbitrary information objects. I have been
hacking this into JUMBO and have just about finished - there are ca. 9 data
types so far (int, float, boolean, string, email, url, link, html,
enumeration). Each of these has to have different formatting and semantic
validation (i.e. does the value make sense). At present these conform to a
hardcoded DTD (XML-data-like), but I plan to develop it generically as
follows.
It's even more challenging to edit maths equations, molecules, music, etc.
the browser/editor has to have an abstract API into which any objet can be
plugged. At present I have things like:
getDisplayComponent(int displayType)
getUpdatedNode()
isValid()
isCorrectFormat()
setMinimumValue()
etc.
These have to cover the whole spectrum of disciplines. Naturally I shall be
concentrating on molecules.
[...]
There are many people who have put a great deal of effort into making good
XML software and making it freely available. Personally I think the effort
has been remarkable. Expecting high quality tools for free and calling our
effort 'shameful' is not very motivational. Do you have anything to
contribute to the effort? If you have a constructive proposal we'd be
delighted to have it.
P.
>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Sun Aug 9 00:41:01 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:40 2004
Subject: WebStandards.org
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980808080709.00bfd990@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Tim Bray wrote:
> At 11:08 PM 8/7/98 -0400, Frank Boumphrey wrote:
> >why did'nt you tell us about this.
> >We should all support it.
> >http://www.webstandards.org
>
> Gimme a break, just found out about it at noon Friday. Yes, I think
> it's a worthwhile effort. It's not my idea, the other guys on
> the list dreamed it up and launched it. -T.
Just a quick note - the Industry Standard story broke a little early.
The official launch date wasn't supposed to be until Monday. So, please
don't harrass Jeffrey Zeldman and the rest with complaints, bug reports,
etc. until sometime Monday afternoon ;)
I was involved at the beginning, though I can't take credit for much.
You can all do your part by joining the discussion, using one of the
banner ads, etc. We've gotten some good support, from PR companies
and so forth, and may stand a chance at making a difference.
Steve
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com <-- rants and writings
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ <-- projects and info
http://dhtml.hesketh.com <-- coming soon
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Sun Aug 9 01:18:52 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Tim Bray wrote:
> At 12:02 PM 8/8/98 -0500, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
> >So I'm wondering what the true motivation of the WSP is: publicity
> >generator? counter to the W3C? public action group ala Nader's Raiders? The
> >Green Peace of the Web?
(Confidential to Eliot: we start sinking French spy ships Monday at noon)
> Well, IMHO, the W3C has done its job in getting some potentially useful
> standards published. The W3C has not been effective as an advocacy or
> bully-pulpit organization, and it's hard to see that happening, in part
> because of some of the reasons raised by Eliot.
Several of the founding members of the WSP are also members of the W3C
working groups, or are otherwise involved with HWG, AIP, or non-browser
software folks, like NetObjects, Allaire, and so forth. One thing that
came up repeatedly was that the W3C couldn't risk pissing off the major
vendors, and so those W3C members have stayed out of some fairly volatile
discussions as a result. The W3C is in a delicate position when it comes
to *enforcement* or *punishment* for non-observance or non-implementation
of standards. They can't exactly say "You can't play, Microsoft, because
you're putting Rob Glaser through such hell and IE4/Mac treats DIVs as
inline elements."
It just wouldn't work that way.
> It seems quite possible that the people who organized the WSP, mostly
> big-time site builders who spend other people's money to build highly
> visible Web presences, are well-positioned to get some attention and do
> some useful advocacy. Which is why it interests me.
I think this is a key point - I spend other people's money, though I
generally do more on the backend than the front end, and I /know/ that
most of my clients don't know enough about standards and incompatibility
to really care. They do understand that if they want bells and whistles
it costs more, but many of them don't seem to understand that the core
work is done in a couple of days and then we spend weeks tweaking things
to make sure they're cross-browser compatible and/or degrade well. (One
of our clients, Oxford University Press, needs its site to work in lynx,
for example, including the order forms.)
So I think that one of the duties of the WSP is to raise awareness - not
among the designers and developers - we already know how broken everything
is, and how risky it is to use anything beyond HTML1.0 for fear that the
client's customers or users will come back with complaints and it could
blow our credibility. Rather, we need to raise awareness among the folks
who are writing the checks, and let them know *why* it costs so much more
to deliver the cutting-edge stuff and somehow make it degrade well, or to
deliver standards-compliant stuff that doesn't work anywhere due to lack
of support for [insert browser-related standard here] or due to the need
for ugly klugy workarounds.
We've got a long road ahead of us, though, and I think we're aware of that.
I mean, %$#!@, most of the suits I've worked for didn't know what 8-bit
ASCII was, much less the difference between HTML4.0/CSS-P and HTML3.2...
> One interesting
> discussion is, which standards to focus on... my personal bet would
> be XML/CSS/DOM, because the implementations are just happening. Is
> it worthwhile, at this point in history, trying to retroactively
> save HTML? Real question. -Tim
HTML is dead - it's not even cute and fuzzy. As far as I know, the big
goal right now is to try and get Netscape to ship the new layout engine
in 5.0, so we can count on full CSS support and some XML, with a solid
DOM. The timing issues are a problem, as we're not exactly there yet
with a complete DOM spec. That, more than anything else, worries me and
makes me wonder if the WSP has a snowball's chance.
My main goal is to reduce the cost of maintenance of the sites I build.
Period. I have no hope that the browser vendors will come to Jesus and
magically support everything the W3C recommends (even if it's their own
recommendation). I'd be happy if I could count on the things that make
it easier to maintain a large-scale site, such as external CSS and
Javascript files, being implemented according to spec. It would be nice
to have a cross-platform-compatible DOM Javascript API, but that's easy
enough to work around for the stuff they both support, anyway.
There's been a lot of talk, here and on the WSP list, about how any org
promoting standards compliance should stick to the standards. I'd just
like to jump in here and say "that's horseshit". If the standards were
implemented correctly, you could. Otherwise, we'd be stuck with a gray
background bullet list. And frankly, that's not going to impress the
target audience. Please be a bit more realistic. Besides, the WSP has
not taken an official position /against/ innovation, rather, thay are
trying to get the stuff that's already standardized *implemented*.
I don't care if IE supports IFRAME and NS supports LAYER. I care that
neither of them supports CSS the way I'd like. It makes my life more
difficult, my sites more costly to maintain, and my customers spend more
which reflects poorly on my company.
Any flames that start with "I ran your sites through the HTML validator
at the W3C, and ..." will be redirected to /dev/null.
Thanks,
Steve
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com <-- rants and writings
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ <-- projects and info
http://dhtml.hesketh.com <-- coming soon
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Sun Aug 9 02:29:30 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
Message-ID:
I have to say I'm awfully damn glad to hear about the WSP, because I can't say
I've ever had any hope that W3C could provide a semblance of enforcement for
standards implementation. Because their paychecks come directly from their
members, they can't afford to be any more than a deliberative body, leaving
the rest of us folks to whine and moan about how W3C standards - HTML, HTTP,
XML, etc. - are hardly worth the paper they're printed on, much less the
monitors on which we often read them.
A lot of the work we've done so far on XML-Dev and a lot of the work to come
is incredibly dependent on a very few market movers choosing to support
standards they don't fully control. If XML is going to make it, those folks
had better get used to liking standards they don't fully control, and which
may in fact make their lives more difficult and their profits harder to come
by. Interoperability means less of a lock-in for vendors - we might as well
face it.
A few of us are lucky enough to be working on projects, either in the SGML
world or in niches of XML development where browsers per se don't matter, but
the rest of us are sitting around waiting for some serious implementations
from the large vendors, waiting to be able to take screen shots that
demonstrate that XML can actually be used in an environment that's cheap,
widely available, and standardized across platforms. XML: A Primer got by
with painfully repetitive output from the MSXML parser, but the next edition
had better have screen shots from multiple browsers, created with XML and CSS,
or readers are going to lose interest.
I hope the WSP can put some backbone in the standards process, providing a
close examination of vendor claims for standards support and giving vendors a
strong incentive to endorse standards - especially standards, like SMIL, in
whose development they participated.
Where do I send my check?
Back to writing about @#X! proxy servers...
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From cfranks at microsoft.com Sun Aug 9 06:07:35 1998
From: cfranks at microsoft.com (Charles Frankston)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com]
> Sent: Saturday, August 08, 1998 5:48 AM
> To: XML Dev
> Subject: RE: Namespaces and XML validation
>
> Charles Frankston writes:
>
> > I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping
> > makes [DTD validation] any harder to do than the old PI based
> > namespace proposal.
>
> This claim is incorrect, though the culprit is the local scoping and
> defaulting rather than the declaration mechanism itself.
>
> XML 1.0 DTDs know only about one-part, unresolved names (i.e. "foo" or
> "bar:foo", not null + "foo" or "http://www.megginson.com/" + "foo").
>
Yes, David, but you're taking me somewhat too literally here (this is what I
meant about being "insufficiently imaginative"). If I rephrased what I
wrote as:
"It is not too hard to evolve the concept of today's DTD validation to
support two part locally scoped names (including the default prefix)."
Would you still disagree with it?
I believe this can be done -- it would obviously not be the validation as
specified in XML 1.0, but a sensible evolution of the same. However, as I
also said in my post, it would be essentially worthless, because it would
encourage placing the prefix in the DTDs. I believe even this can be dealt
with, but I'd rather spend the efforts on a new schema language, than
patching DTDs.
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 9 11:07:39 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: XML-DEV and Interoperability (Re: Offtopic: Web Standards
Project)
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980809100806.0a9f0286@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 19:18 08/08/98 -0400, Steven Champeon wrote:
>On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, Tim Bray wrote:
>
>> Well, IMHO, the W3C has done its job in getting some potentially useful
>> standards published. The W3C has not been effective as an advocacy or
>> bully-pulpit organization, and it's hard to see that happening, in part
>> because of some of the reasons raised by Eliot.
>
[...]
>We've got a long road ahead of us, though, and I think we're aware of that.
I take these as the starting points for some comments on how XML-DEV might
be involved in helping the cause of interoperability. [As always I feel
it's important to stick fairly closely things related to
implementation....]. A lot of people seem to be waiting for major browser
m'facturers to come out with (free) shrink-wrapped browser/editors for XML,
and doubtless that will happen in the medium-term.
However XML is much more than browsers and editors (though that is where
the current interest/hype is). For many activities and domains it
represents an attractive way of laying the infrastructure of the
information. A particularly good example of this is MathML (BTW a
W3C-supported activity). The attraction and value of MathML is obvious and
it seems likely that it will suffer from few problems of interoperability.
Why should anyone create a MathML-aware tool that wasn't interoperable?
Primarily through ignorance or incompetence, rather than an attempt to
split the 'maths market'. A particularly important point is that the
American Mathematical Society has been intimately involved with the effort
(as it was with TeX).
My point, therefore, is that there are many other aspects of XML than
browsers. Certainly there will be a huge market for XML tools that can
provide structured text, marked up and restylable. But there is also an
enormous opportunity for specific subject areas to develop applications
independently of, but interoperable with, browser technology. [It's not
essential to have an XML browser/editor to work with MathML and it's
probably even less important for CML - the MIME-based helper application or
java classes can still do a huge amount without the XML being part of the
text.].
An additional model of XML, therefore, is lots of independent but
interoperable components in different domains. This may take a year or two
to develop, but I think it's unstoppable. Thus, for example, I see XML as
becoming a de facto standard in healthcare and, HenryR and I hope, in
chemistry. Even if XML didn't succeed as the next generation of browsers
(and I think it will), XML would still have to be invented for the domains.
What are the alternatives? I can think of:
- LISP (I suspect there are less than 10 chemists worldwide who would
seriously consider this and perhaps 1 might try to implement it).
- CORBA/Java. This is attractive for communities with well-established
informatics operations which wish to interoperate. A good example is
biology - all the major international and national genome and protein sites
are tooling up to provide CORBA-based services. XML is yet to surface. CML
and BSML are the only initiatives and they are relatively minor. The main
problem with CORBA is that there is a long learning curve. Moreover
interoperability is (I think) provided through fairly central global
coordination - the IDLs are agreed at international level and I suspect
that objects from a different domain will find it extremely difficult to
interoperate with Bio-objects and vice versa. [XML has an enormous
advantage here.]
Moreover very few people would happily author a document using CORBA-based
tools.
- Legacy/binary/obfuscated software. This is the preferred current
solution. I recently got a list of molecules which I cannot read because
they are in binary, platform-dependent and goodness knows what else. The
software is apparently the 'industry-standard'.
For me, XML is the only way to go for chemistry. Even if I designed
something from scratch it would still be XML. (probably XML-lite, because
XML is too complex for chemists). Therefore I see it as inevitable that
some day chemistry will alight on XML as the preferred solution for
interchanging information. [There will also be CORBA as well, but much less.]
So my real question is 'how can HenryR and I get horizontal support for
this effort'?
(We are obviously working on vertical support). Where can we look to in the
XML community for help to make CML take off?
- probably not the W3C as such because chemistry is probably not a core
discipline for it (maths is). I don't know whether W3C has any initiatives
in promoting XML other than for horizontal web activities. [My argument
(above) would suggest that a lot of individual domain-based activities
would be valuable supporting material for W3C].
- OASIS. They clearly have a strong interest in getting XML widely used.
But, AIUI, they are primarily a vendor-based organisation. Are they likely
to support vertical areas? Do they have an information pack I can use to
help sell XML to chemists?
- OMG. OMG have specialist domain areas (for chemistry it is (LSR) Life
Science Research.) I talked last week with the domain specialist there and
she and I have agreed to collaborate since we are both likely to find this
a hard road and we certainly don't wish to compete. Objects can lead to
documents and vice versa. I'd be very grateful for any authoritative
statement on the relationship between UML and XML - I know there is
something, but how important is it?
- WSP. Presumably not directly. But perhaps membership from a large number
of small domains with credible activities would help.
- FSF/GNU. Unlikely for chemistry. But I still have hopes that in a year
or two there will be major communal tools for XML from this sort of
activity. If I want a C++ compiler I use g++. If I want UNIX I use Linux.
I'd very much like to see XML-DEV helping in this sort of thing for XML.
But remember that g++ and Linux have succeeded after the chaos of
non-interoperability, not before. It also took considerable time. I think
history may repeat itself here, and we have to keep the flame burning.
An aside: I am relatively surprised how few academics there are on XML-DEV.
This is an area where (I would have thought) there is a lot of potential. I
haven't looked at the membership list but most seem to be *.com or *.net
(the latter are presumably individuals with a forbidden passion for XML
independent of their employment). Academia, though apparently powerless in
the face of commercial interests and lacking the resources for
shrink-wrapped development, must nevertheless make vital contributions to
new disciplines.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Sun Aug 9 12:52:31 1998
From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: XML-DEV and Interoperability (Re: Offtopic: Web Standards
Project)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980809100806.0a9f0286@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID:
On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
[...]
> - CORBA/Java. This is attractive for communities with well-established
> informatics operations which wish to interoperate. A good example is
> biology - all the major international and national genome and protein sites
> are tooling up to provide CORBA-based services. XML is yet to surface. CML
> and BSML are the only initiatives and they are relatively minor. The main
> problem with CORBA is that there is a long learning curve. Moreover
> interoperability is (I think) provided through fairly central global
> coordination - the IDLs are agreed at international level and I suspect
> that objects from a different domain will find it extremely difficult to
> interoperate with Bio-objects and vice versa. [XML has an enormous
> advantage here.]
Yes, though it's easy to set up a false opposition here: using CORBA to
interface with remote XML or RDF data stores is an attractive proposition.
The DOM comes to mind, as do various proposals for markup based IDLs.
The claim that XML enables decentralised development, avoiding committee
bottlenecks for vocabulary creation, has a lot going for it. But as things
stand with XML there's plenty of work yet to do on the creation of a
framework that allows resource types defined in different domains to
coexist and interact in a rich way, so there's a danger of overhyping XML
here. There's plenty of scope for more runtime-smarts to be added to the
CORBA environment too; I can't think of any developments in this area
where new XML cross-domain clever tricks couldn't be echoed within a CORBA
based framework.
> Moreover very few people would happily author a document using CORBA-based
> tools.
I think I disagree here, but maybe am not sure what you mean. Could you
expand on this? Would they be unhappy because CORBA-based interfaces are
intrinsically unsettling (slow, proprietary, buggy???), because modelling
the document in object/class terms rather as an element/attribute
angle-bracketted textual tree is somehow less open and interoperable, or
because it's not clear what final output of such a process would amount
to (ie. what would the files look like?). Are you thinking of
CORBA-based tools as something like OpenDoc(RIP), or like the Linux GNOME
desktop project? I for one would be more than happy to use these, and to
have my document stored without angle brackets using something like
IronDoc (public domain descendent of bento/quilt work from the structured
storage component of OpenDoc) and accessed via an IDL that offered
.toXML() methods or a DOM interface... I can't really see an opposition
between XML and CORBA in this sort of scenario. It all seems reassuringly
complementary.
> documents and vice versa. I'd be very grateful for any authoritative
> statement on the relationship between UML and XML - I know there is
> something, but how important is it?
Not sure about XML in the general case, but for the RDF 'dialect', a
discussion NOTE from Walter Chang of Adobe was published on the W3C site
last week, discussing the relationship between UML and the RDF Schema
language. Note that this is a member submission and not a Working Group
publication, and that it focusses on the facilities in the first (may 98)
public draft of RDF Schemas; future versions of the spec may differ.
See http://www.w3.org/TR/ and search for 'UML'
> An aside: I am relatively surprised how few academics there are on XML-DEV.
> This is an area where (I would have thought) there is a lot of potential. I
> haven't looked at the membership list but most seem to be *.com or *.net
> (the latter are presumably individuals with a forbidden passion for XML
> independent of their employment). Academia, though apparently powerless in
> the face of commercial interests and lacking the resources for
> shrink-wrapped development, must nevertheless make vital contributions to
> new disciplines.
Exactly. That's why University of Bristol signed up to W3C... Not so sure
about 'vital' but I'd definitely encourage other academics[1] to get
involved.
Dan
[1] does neglecting a Phd in favour of web hackery count as academic? ;-)
--
Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk
Research and Development Unit tel: +44(0)117 9288478
Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/
University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1TN, UK. fax: +44(0)117 9288473
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From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 9 13:04:25 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <199808091103.HAA00221@unready.megginson.com>
Charles Frankston writes:
> Yes, David, but you're taking me somewhat too literally here (this
> is what I meant about being "insufficiently imaginative"). If I
> rephrased what I wrote as:
>
> "It is not too hard to evolve the concept of today's DTD validation
> to support two part locally scoped names (including the default
> prefix)."
>
> Would you still disagree with it?
Not at all -- the thing to remember, though, is that the first
generation of XML tools is just now working its way towards (or into)
the channels, and that these are based on XML 1.0. For at least a
year, it may be necessary to use these tools to create and process
documents that use namespaces.
For personal use, of course, I can write whatever I need in Java or
Perl in a couple of hours, and can many XML-Dev'ers -- our software
development cycle is measured in hours and days rather than months and
years. It's the people who need shrink-wrapped XML software that will
have the problem.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 9 14:55:52 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: XML-DEV and Interoperability (Re: Offtopic: Web Standards
Project)
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.1.16.19980809100806.0a9f0286@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980809135653.6fc7145c@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 11:52 09/08/98 +0100, Dan Brickley wrote:
>On Sun, 9 Aug 1998, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>[...]
>> - CORBA/Java. This is attractive for communities with well-established
[...]
>
>Yes, though it's easy to set up a false opposition here: using CORBA to
>interface with remote XML or RDF data stores is an attractive proposition.
>The DOM comes to mind, as do various proposals for markup based IDLs.
Indeed. And I think that - at present - CORBA is a good solution for
data-based domains. XML will have to work hard in public to support data. I
am frustrated by the slow progress with XML-data - until XML can define
data primitives the data community won't take XML seriously.
>
>
>> Moreover very few people would happily author a document using CORBA-based
>> tools.
>
>I think I disagree here, but maybe am not sure what you mean. Could you
>expand on this? Would they be unhappy because CORBA-based interfaces are
I meant it will be some time before the Royal Society of Chemistry's
Chemical Communications (a primary journal) accepts a submission as a set
of CORBA objects. OTOH HenryR and I have gone a long way towards persuading
them that an XML document will be the preferred means of submission in the
near future, including data, molecules, links, etc.
[...]
>
>[1] does neglecting a Phd in favour of web hackery count as academic? ;-)
Depends how the web hackery turns out... you can do both if you neglect sleep.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Mon Aug 10 00:06:06 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James K. Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <000701bdc3e2$0d9c1540$dc6118cb@caleb>
> * Lars Marius Garshol
> >
> >This is a proposal for XML Software Autoupdate, a system for
> >automatically keeping track of new releases of software products.
>
> * Tim Bray
> >
> >Isn't this what OSD, from MS & Marimba, is supposed to do?
>
> Yes, in a sense. However, XSA concerns itself with discovering
> new versions and changed addresses, while OSD goes much further,
> and omits some of the most useful parts of XSA.
It occurs to me (despite our early discussions, Lars) that we could use
architectural forms---namely to link XSA and OSD. That is, by making XSA an
AF of OSD.
James
BTW xmlsoftware.com will use XSA and possibility OSD
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Mon Aug 10 01:23:58 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980805074423.35a7b450@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35CE4BC3.C16EBA6C@mecomnet.de>
pi-declared v/s attribute-declared namespaces do not make any difference to validation.
the present wd leaves some ambiguities which affect namespace identification,
but that leads to problems with all sorts of things, not just validation.
the algorithm sketched out in mr bray's note is the 'string-processing'
equivalent of the 'symbol-processing' approach which i have been advocating
since the appearance of the previous draft. the 're-prefixed' names are the
equivalent of the pointer to an interned symbol. this is sufficient to
validate against dtd's from arbitrary namespaces.
the advantage of a symbol based approach is that it accomplishes the 'rewrite'
in one pass as in integral part of the parse. if the unambiguous serial form
is required for whatever reason, it can be created by simply reserializing the document.
at its most basic, the symbol-based approach would require that the name type
suggested by mr megginson be modified to comprise a package and a local name
rather than an uri and a local name; to place the uri in the package; and to
use the package as the map between the local name and the universal name.
which name is then bound into all elements, attributes, element declarations,
etc., where one would now use a string.
an advantage of interning by means of a package, rather than a global set of
universal names is that it is easier to place a symbol in more than one
package. this is often useful.
according to the wd. prefixes need be bound dynamically to packages only in
the process of parsing elements (modulo the issues of lexical scope for prefix
bindings for dom side-effects)
in order to satisfy the assumption re "knowing where each name in the dtd
comes from", one also needs to bind dynamically (at least) at entity
boundaries (the document proper, the external subset, external entities). note
that, if this is not supported, then validation is not the only thing which
suffers. validation suffers as a side effect of not being able to guarantee
the identity of a name, which means, strictly speaking that no form of
declaration-based processing is possible.
i've dismissed elevating prefixes to universal status, since it's easy to come
up with cases where that method fails. why did the wg dismiss using additional
pseudo attributes on the xml declaration and on entity declarations to bind
prefixes within those entities? in the present spec, where no namespace
bindings extend over the dtd, there's no reason to read it, since it can't be
guaranteed to have an unambiguous interpretation.
...
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Mon Aug 10 03:48:59 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
In-Reply-To: <35CAF283.5CB4F5BB@m2.dj.net.tw>
Message-ID: <199808100152.AA01932@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
Rick Jelliffe wrote:
> MURATA Makoto wrote:
>
> > More than one conversion procedures certainly exist. The more I
> > think about
> > this issue, the more pessimistic I become.
>
> On the other hand, there has just been little practical requirement for
> everyone to
> synchronize until now. It is still the earliest days of Unicode and XML
This is correct. We still have hope.
> deployment, so cheer up! perhaps a strong request stating XML's needs to
>
> JIS and Microsoft (and ISO) can force a resolution.
> If everyone remains stubborn, then the only thing to do is for IANA to
> register
> three different character sets. And perhaps XML will need another
> pre-defined
> attribute to indicate which character set variant is in use in an
> element, to
> handle cut-and-paste. What a cock-up. In the meantime, I guess the
> appropriate
> strategy is "damage control": as many Japanese implementors as possible
> should
> adopt a single mapping. Can you recommend one?
What I have in mind is as follows: First, we should clarify the definition
of the charset "shift_JIS" registered at IANA. I believe the least common
denominator, which is JIS X0201 + JIS X0208:1997 should be adopted as the
coded character set of SHIFT_JIS. NEC extensions and IBM extensions should
be eliminated. 0x5C is backslash rather than yen sign, and 0x7E is tilde
rather than overline. Second, we should revise the Japanese profile for
XML and encourage the use of character entities to represent conversion-
error-prone characters rather than directly use them. (See the end of this
message.) Then, it will become easier for users to make conversion-error-free
documents. User-friendly XML processors should warn users when documents
in EUC-jp, iso-2022-jp, or shift_jis contain such characters.
> deployed. It is better to converge on a single mapping, even if that
> mapping
> is not satisfactory to everyone (i.e. JIS).
Actually, I am not optimistic about this, because there are many conversion
policies. For example, Microsoft maps 0x5C (sjis) to 0x005C (unicode), but
the glyph for yen sign is used for this code point. Microsoft converts NEC
extensions and IBM extensions to Unicode characters. On the other hand, Java
ignores NEC extensions and IBM extensions. (What happens if J++ is used? I
do not know.) Apple appears to use more than one conversion table.
Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>
> I have made mapping tables for entity references to thousands of
> characters and
> glyphs.
You are talking about SPREAD entities. I recently tried to find ERCS documents,
but I could find only a few. In my understanding, names of SPREAD entities contain
hexadicimal numbers. But XML already have hexadecimal character entities.
I would rather want to use natural language markup such as &enkigou; (enkigou
should be in kanji).
Here is a list of conversion-error-prone characters.
< YEN SIGN
> BACKSLASH
< OVERLINE
> TILDE
< OVERLINE
> FULLWIDTH MACRON
< EM DASH
> HORIZONTAL BAR
< BACKSLASH
> FULLWIDTH BACKSLASH
< WAVE DASH
> FULLWIDTH TILDE
< DOUBLE VERTICAL LINE
> PARALLEL TO
< MINUS SIGN
> FULLWIDTH HYPHEN-MINUS
< YEN SIGN
> FULLWIDTH YEN SIGN
< CENT SIGN
> FULLWIDTH CENT SIGN
< POUND SIGN
> FULLWIDTH POUND SIGN
< NOT SIGN
> FULLWIDTH NOT SIGN
< TILDE
> FULLWIDTH TILDE
< BROKEN BAR
> FULLWIDTH BROKEN BAR
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Mon Aug 10 06:09:35 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
In-Reply-To: <004c01bdc102$a8bce910$b0247385@ceres.ssel.toshiba.co.jp>
Message-ID: <199808100412.AA01935@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
Hamada wrote:
> Do you mean that C++ MS-XML Parser enbedded in IE4 can't process support big
> endian but UTF-16?
It can't handle big endian UTF-16. Correct me if I am wrong. > Colleagues at
Microsoft
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Mon Aug 10 08:00:04 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:41 2004
Subject: [help] xml4j (linux)
Message-ID: <199808100603.QAA11409@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
Hi all,
(I hope it's ok to ask this question here..)
Has anyone installed xml4j for unix on linux and has problems ? I
could not run the test jre -cp trlx -d personal.xml. The error is --p
illegal option !! (Does not make sense !)
TIA !
TL
****************************************************************************
Thuy-Linh Nguyen
CSSE, PO Box 197, Monash Univerisity, Caulfield East, VIC 3145, Australia
Ph: 61-3-9903-2041, Fax: 61-3-9903-1077, http://www.sd.monash.edu.au/~tln/
****************************************************************************
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Mon Aug 10 09:46:36 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: [help] xml4j (linux)
In-Reply-To: <199808100733.RAA13147@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID:
Hi !
I'm using xml4j_1_0_4, jdk 1.1.5. I tried :
jre -cp xml4j.jar trlx -d personal.xml
AND
jre -cp xml4j_1_0_4.jar trlx -d personal.xml
Both give error:
uname: illegal option -- p
TIA !
Thuy-Linh.
> In message "[help] xml4j (linux)"
> on 98/08/10, "Thuy-Linh Nguyen" writes:
> > From: "Thuy-Linh Nguyen"
> > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > (I hope it's ok to ask this question here..)
> > Has anyone installed xml4j for unix on linux and has problems ? I
> > could not run the test jre -cp trlx -d personal.xml. The error is --p
> > illegal option !! (Does not make sense !)
>
> Tell us what version of XML4J are you using and the error message as is, please.
>
> --
> TAMURA, Kent @ Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Japan
>
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From jon at net.lut.ac.uk Mon Aug 10 10:41:39 1998
From: jon at net.lut.ac.uk (Jon Knight)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980808120229.00885da0@postoffice.swbell.net>
Message-ID:
On Sat, 8 Aug 1998, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
> The major vendors have already learned that users will take what they're
> given (imagine trying to earn a living in the information management
> industry and not use computers that run Microsoft software--it's pretty
> hard).
Some of us manage just that and its not hard at all. And much less
stressful than the alternative... :-)
Tatty bye,
Jim'll
#!/usr/bin/perl -- -Whois++-client-in-6-lines-of-Perl -Beat-that-Z39.50!
use IO::Socket;sub w{$f=shift;$a{$f}=1;($h,$p,$q)=split("/",$f);$s=
IO::Socket::INET->new(PeerAddr=>"$h:$p")||return;print $s "$q\r\n";while(<$s>)
{next if(/^%/);if(/^# SERVER-TO-ASK/){while(<$s>){$x=$1 if/Name: (.*)\r\n$/;$y
=$1 if/Port: (.*)\r\n$/;$f="$x/$y/$q";@j=(@j,$f)if(/^# END/&&!$a{$f})}}else{
print}}close($s)}@j=shift;while(@j){w(pop(@j))}# whois++.pl host/port/query
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From samg at fundtech.com Mon Aug 10 15:21:34 1998
From: samg at fundtech.com (Sam Gentile)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
We mean just the XML data coming into the parser (coming over the wire). I
guess we could call it an XML file.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
David Megginson
Sent: Friday, August 07, 1998 10:15 PM
To: Sam Gentile
Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Sam Gentile writes:
> We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which discusses
> schemas. It is not clear from the document what a schema is used for or
what
> it's purpose is. Is it for designing the XML buffer only or is it read by
> the parser? Is it an extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic
XML?
>
> Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is there
one?
> We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
Sam:
It might help if you clarified a little. What do you mean by an "XML
buffer"?
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 10 15:44:43 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
References: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
<002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
Message-ID: <199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com>
Sam Gentile writes:
> We mean just the XML data coming into the parser (coming over the
> wire). I guess we could call it an XML file.
OK, now I understand what you mean -- according to the spec, you're
referring to an 'XML document', though I know that the term will sound
strange to database-oriented people (XML takes a very docu-centric
view of things).
> Sam Gentile writes:
> > We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which
> > discusses schemas. It is not clear from the document what a
> > schema is used for or what it's purpose is. Is it for designing
> > the XML buffer only or is it read by the parser? Is it an
> > extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
XML-Data is a note that was submitted to the W3C by Microsoft and a
couple of partners -- it has no official status (a W3C "Note" means
roughly "here's a neat idea from one of our members").
XML 1.0 DTDs and proposed replacements/enhancements such as
Microsoft's XML-Data and XML-Dev's XSchema perform three distinct
roles:
1. Provide a schema for validating the *logical structure*
(element/attribute/data) structure of an XML document; as a side
effect, structural schemas can also provide enough information to
control a guided XML authoring tool.
2. Declare the entities (internal strings or external objects) that
make up the *physical structure* of an XML document.
3. Provide default logical content for an XML document (such as
default values for attributes, though XML-Data goes further).
Some people have argued -- quite convincingly, I think -- that these
roles should be kept separate: they are mixed together right now for
historical compatibility with ISO 8879:1986 DTDs.
It is important to note that the W3C's XML WG will soon begin work on
structural schemas and data typing, and that eventually a new W3C
standard will appear -- until then, the only W3C standard for
structural schemas is XML 1.0 DTDs, and XSchema or XML-Data should be
considered strictly experimental.
> > Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is
> > there one? We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
No, there is no such thing. XML's parent, SGML, included extensive
facilities for markup minimisation and has suffered badly for it,
since SGML tools are far too difficult to write (there is still not a
single Java-based SGML parser, beside probably more than a dozen
Java-based XML parsers).
There are, however, alternatives: for example, you could compile the
XML to a compact binary format for internal storage then decompile it
back to a verbose format for export -- there's no requirement to store
it internally as text.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From samg at fundtech.com Mon Aug 10 16:14:41 1998
From: samg at fundtech.com (Sam Gentile)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <002501bdc469$1e33bfc0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
Thanks for your answers. I'm still a little confused.
> > We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which
> > discusses schemas. It is not clear from the document what a
> > schema is used for or what it's purpose is. Is it for designing
> > the XML buffer only or is it read by the parser? Is it an
> > extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
>>>XML-Data is a note that was submitted to the W3C by Microsoft and a
>>>couple of partners -- it has no official status (a W3C "Note" means
>>>roughly "here's a neat idea from one of our members").
Ok, that's clear.
>>XML 1.0 DTDs and proposed replacements/enhancements such as
>>Microsoft's XML-Data and XML-Dev's XSchema perform three distinct
>>roles:
>>1. Provide a schema for validating the *logical structure*
>> (element/attribute/data) structure of an XML document; as a side
>> effect, structural schemas can also provide enough information to
>> control a guided XML authoring tool.
How is this different from what DTDs do? Don't DTDs validate the *logical
structure* of an XML document?
>>2. Declare the entities (internal strings or external objects) that
>> make up the *physical structure* of an XML document.
Don't DTDs do this?
3. Provide default logical content for an XML document (such as
default values for attributes, though XML-Data goes further).
Some people have argued -- quite convincingly, I think -- that these
roles should be kept separate: they are mixed together right now for
historical compatibility with ISO 8879:1986 DTDs.
>>>
How about the question of namespaces? Is this legal XML?
<1>
<1>data1>
<2>data2>
1>
or do you need namespaces?
Thanks,
Sam Gentile
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From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 10 16:21:32 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <002501bdc469$1e33bfc0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
References: <199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com>
<002501bdc469$1e33bfc0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
Message-ID: <199808101420.KAA05379@unready.megginson.com>
Sam Gentile writes:
> Thanks for your answers. I'm still a little confused.
>
> > > We have a spec called "XML-Data W3C Note 05 Jan 1998", which
> > > discusses schemas. It is not clear from the document what a
> > > schema is used for or what it's purpose is. Is it for designing
> > > the XML buffer only or is it read by the parser? Is it an
> > > extension to XML? Are they even necessary in basic XML?
>
> >>>XML-Data is a note that was submitted to the W3C by Microsoft and a
> >>>couple of partners -- it has no official status (a W3C "Note" means
> >>>roughly "here's a neat idea from one of our members").
>
> Ok, that's clear.
>
> >>XML 1.0 DTDs and proposed replacements/enhancements such as
> >>Microsoft's XML-Data and XML-Dev's XSchema perform three distinct
> >>roles:
>
> >>1. Provide a schema for validating the *logical structure*
> >> (element/attribute/data) structure of an XML document; as a side
> >> effect, structural schemas can also provide enough information to
> >> control a guided XML authoring tool.
>
> How is this different from what DTDs do? Don't DTDs validate the *logical
> structure* of an XML document?
Yes -- as I mentioned above, these are roles that both DTDs and their
proposed replacements can play. XML-Data proposes some additional
types of validation, including validation for data content (is it an
integer? etc.).
> >>2. Declare the entities (internal strings or external objects) that
> >> make up the *physical structure* of an XML document.
>
> Don't DTDs do this?
Yes (see above).
> 3. Provide default logical content for an XML document (such as
> default values for attributes, though XML-Data goes further).
>
> Some people have argued -- quite convincingly, I think -- that these
> roles should be kept separate: they are mixed together right now for
> historical compatibility with ISO 8879:1986 DTDs.
> >>>
>
> How about the question of namespaces? Is this legal XML?
> <1>
> <1>data1>
> <2>data2>
> 1>
>
> or do you need namespaces?
Actually, this is never valid XML 1.0 (with or without namespaces)
because XML names are not allowed to begin with numbers, so let me
recast your example:
datadata
Yes, this is good, simple, well-formed XML 1.0: elements are allowed
to recurse. If you were using a DTD, you might make the following
declarations:
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From dcarlson at ontogenics.com Mon Aug 10 16:43:24 1998
From: dcarlson at ontogenics.com (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19980810144357.01062c98@terminal.ontogenics.com>
At 09:43 AM 8/10/98 -0400, David Megginson wrote:
>Sam Gentile writes:
> > > Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is
> > > there one? We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
>
>No, there is no such thing. XML's parent, SGML, included extensive
>facilities for markup minimisation and has suffered badly for it,
>since SGML tools are far too difficult to write (there is still not a
>single Java-based SGML parser, beside probably more than a dozen
>Java-based XML parsers).
>
>There are, however, alternatives: for example, you could compile the
>XML to a compact binary format for internal storage then decompile it
>back to a verbose format for export -- there's no requirement to store
>it internally as text.
>
It's important to note that an XML stream can be very highly compresses with
standard tools like WinZIP. I have an XML file that's about 20K size, which
includes many repititions of a small number of tags. WinZIP produced 97%
compression on this file!
The standard Java library includes a zip utility class for zipping/unzipping
streams, so it's possible to dramatically reduce transmission bandwidth
while retaining long, descriptive tag names.
Cheers,
Dave Carlson
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 10 16:47:01 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References:
Message-ID: <35CF07C2.5E4AA348@locke.ccil.org>
Charles Frankston wrote:
> I find an assertion that "software engineering experience" has shown that
> Algol style lexical scoping is a bad idea quite surprising. Which school of
> software engineering believes this? Certainly not the one I went to.
Not scoping, but shadowing. The difficult context is something like this:
begin
int foo;
...
...
begin
int foo;
...
...
foo := 32;
comment which foo?
programmer means global,
but compiler assumes local ;
end
end
By making a (conventional) syntactic distinction between local and
global variables, as is done in Smalltalk, this error is made less
likely. As is well known, Dijkstra's _Discipline of Programming_ uses
a mini-language in which this type of variable shadowing is a syntax error.
> I believe it is possible to do
> fragment validation against DTDs, if that is so desired. However this
> certainly cannot be accomplished without some modification of the mechanics
> of DTD validation, as Tim outlined.
Precisely my complaint. In the previous ns draft, where ns declarations
were global, validation could proceed in the normal fashion.
With the current draft, it is possible to create documents that cannot
be validated without first transforming them into other documents.
> I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping makes it any
> harder to do than the old PI based namespace proposal.
In the old proposal, there was nothing to "do"; just use normal XML
validation. All namespace prefixes were global and explicitly covered
the DTD (they could appear only before the DOCTYPE declaration).
> The fact that the namespace prefix may actually
> be declared physically in the document after the DOCTYPE doesn't matter. At
> the time when the instance is to be compared to see if it matches the
> declaration in the DTD, the prefix to URI mapping is available. Can you do
> this without modifying your validation code? Certainly not.
But in the previous draft, I didn't have to care about that mapping,
because prefix-to-URI was a 1-1 relationship.
> In order to do this form of validaton,
> what gets put in the DTD is the prefix, and not the URI. That is a fatal
> flaw, because it makes it impossible to re-use a DTD for more than one
> document unless all documents that use that DTD use the same prefix for the
> same URI. That elevates the prefix to the same status as the URI --
> something one must take care to keep globally unique. The prefix is not
> syntactically suited to this task.
Quite so. This is true of both the old draft and the new.
> For that reason, and because of other well known deficiencies in DTDs, I
> think the issue of validation and namespaces is better dealt with in the
> context of a whole new schema language. [...] I would therefore rather
> spend my time working on the new schema language, as the XML WG will
> shortly be doing, than patching DTDs.
This is precisely the attitude I characterized as "not giving a
RRRA about DTD validation", and attributed to the authors of the
current draft. (The anonymous authors, not necessarily the editors.)
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 10 16:56:33 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: Namespaces: silly question
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807105216.00cf9208@ifi.uio.no> <3.0.3.32.19980808091907.00c72100@pop.mindspring.com>
Message-ID: <35CF0A00.4AADC470@locke.ccil.org>
Jonathan Robie wrote:
> I got way behind on XML-Dev during the finalization of namespaces. What
> exactly is IBTWSH?
Why ... it's ... the ..
[sings]
Itsy Bitsy Teeny Weeny
Simple Hypertext DTD!
It's a small subset of HTML 4.0, adapted to XML syntax, and suitable
for including "rich text" in documentation elements. For a commented
DTD, see http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ibtwsh.dtd .
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 10 17:27:33 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: IBTWSH
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980810082647.00c1d8c0@207.34.179.21>
At 10:56 AM 8/10/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>> I got way behind on XML-Dev during the finalization of namespaces. What
>> exactly is IBTWSH?
...
>It's a small subset of HTML 4.0, adapted to XML syntax, and suitable
>for including "rich text" in documentation elements. For a commented
>DTD, see http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ibtwsh.dtd .
Hey... pretty good. Is it an intentional design choice that ALL THE
ELEMENT TYPES ARE SHOUTING AT ME AND HAVE UGLY SQUARE CORNERS? -Tim
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Mon Aug 10 19:07:13 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: XSchema Spec - Element Declarations (Section 2.2), Draft 7
Message-ID:
The latest draft of the XSchema Element Declaration syntax follows. After
receiving a few suggestions regarding moving attributes into a container
element and considering the implications for reusability and processing, I've
changed AttDef* to AttGroup?. AttDefs may still appear in the XSchema
element; now I need to add AttGroup there.
Eventually, a prettier HTML version of this will be posted shortly at
http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xschema. I'm having odd problems with the AOL
account and FTP right now; the entire site may move to a new URL shortly.
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
2.2 Element Declarations
Element declarations in XSchemas are made using the ElementDecl element and
its contents:
The XSC:Name attribute identifies the name of the element, and is required. An
element declaration would look like:
...additionalElementInformation...
This declaration would declare an element named "Species", which would appear
in an instance as:
...content...
The Name attribute must be unique within the set of elements, as it provides
the name of the element as declared here, and is also used by other elements
to refer to this element in their content model declarations. The Name
attribute must also match the Name production in the XML 1.0 spec.
(Effectively, this requires element names to begin with a letter, underscore,
or colon.)
The id attribute, if it appears, must be unique within the document. This
attribute may be used to uniquely identify this ElementDecl element for
reference using XPointers and other tools. The prefix attribute identifies the
prefix that will be applied to this elements and its attributes during
conversion to DTDs, unless overridden in the attribute declaration itself. The
ns attribute identifies the URI which functions as the namespace name for this
element and its attributes. Namespace processing is covered further in Section
3.0, "XSchema and Namespaces".
The Root attribute provides authoring tools with a guide for which elements
are likely root elements for documents. This is intended to simplify the
choices presented to authors during document composition. Composition tools
could use this to build a menu of likely starting points for a document. The
Root attribute is purely a suggestion and does not require any action on the
part of the processor.
Note that an element must declare a content model of some type, using the
Model element, even if that content model is empty. Documentation (in the Doc
element), non-XSchema extensions (in the More element) and attribute
declarations (using the AttGroup element) are optional.
Documentation about the element, additional extensions, content-model
information, and attribute information are stored as sub-elements of the
ElementDecl element. Documentation is covered in 2.6.1, Documentation
Extensions. Additional extensions are covered in 2.6.2, Further Extensions.
Content Models are covered in 2.3, Content Model Declarations, and attributes
are covered in 2.4, Attribute Declarations.
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 10 19:49:48 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:42 2004
Subject: IBTWSH
References: <3.0.32.19980810082647.00c1d8c0@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CF32A6.C6E6CEAE@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> Hey... pretty good. Is it an intentional design choice that ALL THE
> ELEMENT TYPES ARE SHOUTING AT ME AND HAVE UGLY SQUARE CORNERS? -Tim
Thank you!
I like all-caps element names, yes; I think they stand out better
in mixed-case character data. As for the ugly square corners,
I suppose that depends on the font? Try Lucida Sans Unicode
(the name of which I think is unfortunate, as I tend to read
it as "Lucida, sans Unicode").
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From epalma at fsaa.ulaval.ca Mon Aug 10 20:10:48 1998
From: epalma at fsaa.ulaval.ca (Eduardo Palma)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Xml files from databese
Message-ID: <199808101811.OAA00401@hermes.ulaval.ca>
Hi guys,
Here is my problem,
I want to use the dso applet from microsoft
to generate objects from Xml.
That works fine with text files conteining Xml.
Is not so clear when I genereate Xml from
a database web connection.
(web pages or text generated on the fly).
Sombebody know this aspects?
Thanks
Eddie
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From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon Aug 10 20:52:52 1998
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
>I do not believe the new namespace proposal with local scoping makes it any
>harder to do than the old PI based namespace proposal. It may make it
>harder to think about it. The fact that the namespace prefix may actually
>be declared physically in the document after the DOCTYPE doesn't matter. At
>the time when the instance is to be compared to see if it matches the
>declaration in the DTD, the prefix to URI mapping is available. Can you do
>this without modifying your validation code? Certainly not.
>
>However, the approach I've outlined above still has a severe problem, which
>I don't think is so easily solved. In order to do this form of validaton,
>what gets put in the DTD is the prefix, and not the URI. That is a fatal
>flaw, because it makes it impossible to re-use a DTD for more than one
>document unless all documents that use that DTD use the same prefix for the
>same URI. That elevates the prefix to the same status as the URI --
>something one must take care to keep globally unique. The prefix is not
>syntactically suited to this task."
I keep coming back to namespaces in the context of the programming languages
that have used them, and think that these experiences should apply to XML's use
to some degree or another. Maybe their uses in XML will be radically different
becaues of the different uses of the two, but overall, past experience should
be some guide.
The C++ scenario is much like that of XML. The prefixes themselves must be
unique within any conglomeration of code from multiple sources. Has this been a
severe restriction in the C++ world? I don't think it has really, but some
might argue that its because XML will much more often be used to slap together
bits and pieces than a C++ application would. Mostly, the namespaces used are
those of well known companies or standards organizations, right? We all know
their prefixes and how to stay away from them. Any locally used namespaces are
ours to pick, but if a clash occurs we have to deal with it manually.
So, I guess the question is, how similar to C++ do people see XML's use being?
Will their primarily be large, well defined namespaces that make up the bulk of
the reusable goodies out there? Or, will it be the opposite? To the folks who
say that it will be the opposite, I'd reply that we software coders keep saying
the same thing too, but I'm not sure its happened yet :-)
The other possible model, is that of Java. Java's model is basically like the
"Use the whole URI" method, which is obviously yucky give the syntax of URIs.
But in terms of bulk and usage, that's pretty much what Java has done. You have
to use fully qualified name of a class to indicate a particular class. The
obvious advantage that Java has in this respect is that they forsaw and built
this in, so the names are a relatively reasonable hierarchical system that can
fit over the whole universe. Perhaps this would not be a bad idea for XML as
well, instead of allowing any random URL. The ability to package XML fragments
as 'classes' and being able to say foons="com/ibm/xml/Businesswidgets" to get
access to any of the Businesswidgets provided by IBM, would be a nice way to
go. And, if there are disambiguations to do, the developer of the source
document handles it, just as they do in Java by using the fully qualified name.
That's just the way that the cookie crumbles, and we shouldn't expect any more
magical way to deal with it?
So, anyway, overall I'm just asking "How real are the problems being discussed
in the domains where namespaces have been in real use" and "How relevant are
those previous experiences vis a vis how similarly we feel XML's use will be to
that of traditional programming languages" and "If they are relevant, and some
previous experience matches expected XML usage closely, why not apply that
previous experience now while we have the chance even if its a somewhat radical
departure".
Ok, so blast away :-)
----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com
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From tyler at infinet.com Mon Aug 10 20:56:30 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
References: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
<002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg> <199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35CF4250.E981808@infinet.com>
David Megginson wrote:
> Sam Gentile writes:
>
> > > Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is
> > > there one? We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
>
> No, there is no such thing. XML's parent, SGML, included extensive
> facilities for markup minimisation and has suffered badly for it,
> since SGML tools are far too difficult to write (there is still not a
> single Java-based SGML parser, beside probably more than a dozen
> Java-based XML parsers).
>
> There are, however, alternatives: for example, you could compile the
> XML to a compact binary format for internal storage then decompile it
> back to a verbose format for export -- there's no requirement to store
> it internally as text.
Simple some very simple compression algorithms like Huffman encoding for
instance, do very well with XML documents as the Name production that is used for
identifying tags among other things will be converted to some binary symbol that
is used as an index to lookup the actual name production. In fact, you could do
this all with entities by simply taking all of the Names specified in the DTD,
spit them into a List, and then declare all entities.
You could index all of this by using base 10 digits or else use something as high
as base 64 to encode the array references.
Then for a document which had element types with names "Foo" and "Bar" occurences
of:
would be converted to:
<0>0>
<1>1>
For small documents like CDF for instance these sort of techniques may turn out
to be counter-productive.
Tyler
BTW, on a side-note I am having a problem understanding whether the external
subset or the internal subset should be parsed first. I would assume that the
external subset should go first, but in this case it would make using INCLUDE and
IGNORE sections to be pretty useless. This is something that is not clarified as
far as I can tell in the 1.0 spec so if someone could clarify how this should be
handled by a parser, then I would greatly appreciate it.
Thanx in advance...
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From tyler at infinet.com Mon Aug 10 21:16:29 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
References: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
<002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg> <199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com> <35CF4250.E981808@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <35CF46F4.3C03C5E5@infinet.com>
Tyler Baker wrote:
> David Megginson wrote:
>
> > Sam Gentile writes:
> >
> > > > Also, we have been hearing rumors of a "short" XML notation. Is
> > > > there one? We have a need to reduce the size of our buffers.
> >
> > No, there is no such thing. XML's parent, SGML, included extensive
> > facilities for markup minimisation and has suffered badly for it,
> > since SGML tools are far too difficult to write (there is still not a
> > single Java-based SGML parser, beside probably more than a dozen
> > Java-based XML parsers).
> >
> > There are, however, alternatives: for example, you could compile the
> > XML to a compact binary format for internal storage then decompile it
> > back to a verbose format for export -- there's no requirement to store
> > it internally as text.
>
> Simple some very simple compression algorithms like Huffman encoding for
> instance, do very well with XML documents as the Name production that is used for
> identifying tags among other things will be converted to some binary symbol that
> is used as an index to lookup the actual name production. In fact, you could do
> this all with entities by simply taking all of the Names specified in the DTD,
> spit them into a List, and then declare all entities.
>
> You could index all of this by using base 10 digits or else use something as high
> as base 64 to encode the array references.
>
>
>
>
> Then for a document which had element types with names "Foo" and "Bar" occurences
> of:
>
>
>
>
> would be converted to:
>
> <0>0>
> <1>1>
Please forgive any confusion I may have caused but this is not valid XML as digits
are not allowed as the first character in a name (only Letter's and the characters
'_' and ':'). In this case, instead of using numeric digits, use characters that are
Letters and simply map each letter to a corresponding digit value.
Tyler
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From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 10 21:28:24 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <35CF4250.E981808@infinet.com>
References: <199808080215.WAA02524@unready.megginson.com>
<002101bdc461$b69371f0$5100000a@ftc_samg>
<199808101343.JAA05236@unready.megginson.com>
<35CF4250.E981808@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <199808101927.PAA07368@unready.megginson.com>
Tyler Baker writes:
> BTW, on a side-note I am having a problem understanding whether the
> external subset or the internal subset should be parsed first. I
> would assume that the external subset should go first, but in this
> case it would make using INCLUDE and IGNORE sections to be pretty
> useless. This is something that is not clarified as far as I can
> tell in the 1.0 spec so if someone could clarify how this should be
> handled by a parser, then I would greatly appreciate it.
The internal DTD subset is parsed first, so that entity declarations
there take priority over those in the external subset -- I don't have
time to check the actual language of the spec right now, however.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 10 22:46:35 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <199808101927.MAA29339@mehitabel.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 12:27 10/08/98 -0700, Murray Altheim wrote:
[...]
>
>Peter,
>
>You speak with great optimism about the compatibility issues of the
>current namespace draft. I think it would be sobering for anyone to read
I am known to be overoptimistic. It occasionally has virtues. I think a
lot of it comes from being an experimentalist - if most things work most of
the time we are doing very well. I am also a believer in the value of
kludges and (occasionally) communal self-discipline.
I compare XML with C++. I went through the midnight blood with that... C++
now works - it's not pretty, but it works. It paved the way for Java. So I
see XML1.0 working and being made to work. Perhaps it's just a station on
the road... who knows in 5 years time?
>over the working group archives to see that compatibility is not a given.
These are not generally available...
>In all but trivial DTDs namespaces have been shown to be incompatible with
>XML 1.0 validation (or at very least more manual effort than would be
>worth the trouble*). The solution for validating moderately complex
>structures using qualified names without wholescale rewriting of existing
>DTDs has not yet been found. It is a given that any such alternative
>validation solution would be inherently incompatible with existing the
>validation methodology (ie., the SGML-compatible declaration syntax in
>XML 1.0). This (as I mentioned to Charles Frankston) is not a matter of
>imagination but of compatibility and interoperability.
I think we are in the experimental phase of XML where we are asking the
wider world whether validation is valuable. To many established SGML people
the lack of validation is near heresy. [In the same way I suspect many
people couldn't envisage a useful OO language without multiple inheritance.
But Java works. Only very occasionally do I think "it would be nice to have
MI at this point". I suspect it will be the same for XML. As I have often
(probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
either much...)
>
>We can all hope that some new schema language solves all the problems
>that arise in XML's nascent life, but we cannot do so at the expense of
>incompatibility with XML 1.0. Unfortunately, I do not believe
>compatibility with XML 1.0 validation is on the minds of all participants
>and see a schism arising: XML 1.0 compatible, and XML-subset compatible.
Subset?
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov Mon Aug 10 22:59:39 1998
From: fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov (Frank Blau)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: XML/EDI and Healthcare
Message-ID: <35CF5DB2.8756AC65@nina.snohomish.wa.gov>
I am looking for information about integrated XML/EDI with healthcare
EDI applications, specifically the X12 837 set.
Thanks!
Frank Blau
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From colds at nwlink.com Mon Aug 10 23:16:22 1998
From: colds at nwlink.com (Chris Olds)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Message-ID: <048801bdc4a3$eb8383e0$dc59fcc6@albert.salsa.walldata.com>
Tyler Baker wrote:
>
>BTW, on a side-note I am having a problem understanding whether the
external
>subset or the internal subset should be parsed first. I would assume that
the
>external subset should go first, but in this case it would make using
INCLUDE and
>IGNORE sections to be pretty useless. This is something that is not
clarified as
>far as I can tell in the 1.0 spec so if someone could clarify how this
should be
>handled by a parser, then I would greatly appreciate it.
The XML Recommendation says (in the last paragraph of section 2.8)
"If both the external and internal subsets are used, the internal subset is
considered to occur before the external subset. This has the effect that
entity and attribute-list declarations in the internal subset take
precedence over those in the external subset."
Tim Bray's comment on this can be found at:
http://www.xml.com/axml/notes/IntSubFirst.html
/cco
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From lisarein at finetuning.com Mon Aug 10 23:37:05 1998
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com>
peter murray rust wrote:
>
> As I have often
> (probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
> semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
> either much...)
How can you possibly have one without the other? If your syntax is
bogus -- you won't get far with semantics. How can you?
Am I wrong? Somebody please set me straight.
lisa rein
http://www.finetuning.com
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Mon Aug 10 23:49:35 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: <199808101926.MAA29336@mehitabel.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID:
On Mon, 10 Aug 1998, Murray Altheim wrote:
> Steven Champeon writes:
> [...]
> > Any flames that start with "I ran your sites through the HTML validator
> > at the W3C, and ..." will be redirected to /dev/null.
>
> I think with this statement you've rather explicitly defined your
> interest in supporting existing standards, and therefore my interest
> in participating or supporting the WSP.
Hi, Murray.
I support your right to have whatever opinions of me and my level of
commitment to standards. The point I, and the WSP, are trying to make
is not that innovation (and hence potential variance from standards)
is bad, but that such innovation, *when it comes at the cost of a lack
of full support for existing standards*, is bad.
Does using a non-standard workaround for a bug in one's *markup* make a
desire for fully compliant *implementations* null and void? I don't think
it does. But, as I said, you are entitled to have whatever opinions
you like. I have to live in the real world.
Cheers,
Steve
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com <-- rants and writings
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ <-- projects and info
http://dhtml.hesketh.com <-- coming soon
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From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 10 23:55:26 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980810145436.00bd5bb0@207.34.179.21>
At 05:48 PM 8/10/98 -0400, Steven Champeon wrote:
>Does using a non-standard workaround for a bug in one's *markup* make a
>desire for fully compliant *implementations* null and void? I don't think
>it does.
Steven and Murray are each entitled to their opinion. On top of which,
as of this morning, the pages at the WSP site all start like so:
and they validate. And if they don't that's a high-update-rate bug
and they'll be fixed. And (I can say this since I had no input into
their design) they look damn good too, on a wide variety of browsers.
-Tim
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From simpson at polaris.net Tue Aug 11 00:03:38 1998
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:43 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980810180256.0077de20@nexus.polaris.net>
At 03:13 PM 8/10/98 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote:
>peter murray rust wrote:
>> As I have often
>> (probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
>> semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
>> either much...)
>How can you possibly have one without the other? If your syntax is
>bogus -- you won't get far with semantics. How can you?
Don't want to put words in his mouth, or his keyboard, but I think Peter's
point was that his community -- chemists -- don't give a hoot whether
>start< or are valid XML tags; all they care about is that (using
this example) some provision is made for "starting." Peter himself seems to
have a fine grasp of the interdependence between semantics and syntax.
John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor,
simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be.
| -- "Kin" Hubbard
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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org Tue Aug 11 00:25:07 1998
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19980810144357.01062c98@terminal.ontogenics.com>; from Dave Carlson on Mon, Aug 10, 1998 at 08:43:57AM -0600
References: <2.2.32.19980810144357.01062c98@terminal.ontogenics.com>
Message-ID: <19980810182446.J27611@w3.org>
> >There are, however, alternatives: for example, you could compile the
> >XML to a compact binary format for internal storage then decompile it
> >back to a verbose format for export -- there's no requirement to store
> >it internally as text.
>
> It's important to note that an XML stream can be very highly compresses with
> standard tools like WinZIP. I have an XML file that's about 20K size, which
> includes many repititions of a small number of tags. WinZIP produced 97%
> compression on this file!
>
> The standard Java library includes a zip utility class for zipping/unzipping
> streams, so it's possible to dramatically reduce transmission bandwidth
> while retaining long, descriptive tag names.
A linux software database index encoded with RDF was reduced from
1.6 MBytes to a bit more of 150 KBytes using "gzip -9".
Daniel
--
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C MIT/LCS NE43-344 | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +1 617 253 5884 | 545 Technology Square | Linux, WWW, rpm2html,
Fax : +1 617 258 5999 | Cambridge, MA 02139 USA | badminton, Kaffe,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | HTTP-NG and Amaya.
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Tue Aug 11 00:28:14 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
Just a quick note to ensure that everyone knows that anything I have
said in this forum WRT the Web Standards Project should not necessarily
be construed as a statement of an official policy or stance taken by
the WSP. I do hope that nobody is discouraged from supporting the WSP
by any statement of opinion I may have voiced here.
I speak for myself, not for anyone else. Now, with that, I'll stop
posting on this thread, which has already gone far afield of the core
subject matter for the list. Apologies to Peter and everyone else.
Steve
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com <-- rants and writings
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ <-- projects and info
http://dhtml.hesketh.com <-- coming soon
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From avirr at LanMinds.Com Tue Aug 11 00:35:34 1998
From: avirr at LanMinds.Com (Avi Rappoport)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
References: <199808101927.MAA29339@mehitabel.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID:
At 9:41 PM -0700 8/10/98, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>I think we are in the experimental phase of XML where we are asking the
>wider world whether validation is valuable. To many established SGML people
>the lack of validation is near heresy. [In the same way I suspect many
>people couldn't envisage a useful OO language without multiple inheritance.
>But Java works. Only very occasionally do I think "it would be nice to have
>MI at this point". I suspect it will be the same for XML. As I have often
>(probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
>semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
>either much...)
I'm new to XML, so perhaps could be considered one of the "wider world",
though I'm starting from a somewhat mundane use of it as a data interchange
format creator.
I think that validation is one of the major advantages of XML over other
arbitrary formats. It allows other people to check their file structure
and content locally and automatically, in their tool of choice, on their
platform of choice. When I get a file from someone else, I can check to
make sure it validates, rather than writing my own validation code for
every format and every change to every format. This vastly reduces the
likelyhood of confusion and mistakes, and is incredibly valuable for
everyone concerned.
I'm also deeply interested in how XML will change local and web-wide
searching, and I think validation is important for that as well. Search
indexes can process valid files in creative and powerful ways.
Another optimist, I'm hoping that SGML is equivalent to C++ and XML is
equivalent to Java: a sleeker and more focussed subset built from the hard
experiences of the past. We could do without all the hype, though.
Avi
________________________________________________________________
Avi Rappoport, Web Site Search Tools Maven
Search Tools Consulting Site:
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 01:22:20 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980810162029.00a0c220@207.34.179.21>
There's a new IBM/Microsoft submission at
http://www.w3.org/Submission
I'm a co-author. Here's the abstract:
This document proposes a structural schema facility, Document Content
Description (DCD), for specifying rules covering the structure and content
of XML documents. The DCD proposal incorporates a subset of the XML-Data
Submission [XML-Data] and expresses it in a way which is consistent with
the ongoing W3C RDF (Resource Description Framework) [RDF] effort; in
particular, DCD is an RDF vocabulary. DCD is intended to define document
constraints in an XML syntax; these constraints may be used in the same
fashion as traditional XML DTDs. DCD also provides additional properties,
such as basic datatypes.
I have lots of opinions about it, which can wait for Montreal now. -Tim
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From epalma at fsaa.ulaval.ca Tue Aug 11 02:01:10 1998
From: epalma at fsaa.ulaval.ca (Eduardo Palma)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: xml on the fly
Message-ID: <199808110022.UAA17015@cerberus.ulaval.ca>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Hi guys,
Here is my problem,
I want to use the dso applet from microsoft
to generate objects from Xml.
That works fine with text files conteining Xml.
Is not so clear when I genereate Xml from
a database web connection.
(web pages or text generated on the fly).
Sombebody know this aspects?
Thanks
Eddie
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From wperry at fiduciary.com Tue Aug 11 02:12:40 1998
From: wperry at fiduciary.com (W. E. Perry)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk> <35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com>
Message-ID: <35CF8430.AA3A9530@fiduciary.com>
Lisa Rein wrote:
> peter murray rust wrote:
>
> >
> > As I have often
> > (probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
> > semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
> > either much...)
>
> How can you possibly have one without the other? If your syntax is
> bogus -- you won't get far with semantics. How can you?
>
> Am I wrong? Somebody please set me straight.
>
> lisa rein
I think that we have here the fundamental question of XML and, with it, the
likeliest source of schism among us. XML is routinely introduced as
a) the (infinitely) extensible markup language, based on the mechanical
concept of well-formedness, on five hard-wired entities, and the three reserved
characters ordered 'xml';
and also as
b) a formal subset of ISO-standard SGML.
The hope expressed with both of these formulations is that XML will be used to
mark up meaning rather than presentation. Without terribly much extension,
'presentation' quickly comes to include syntactic forms, and there is a
reasonable argument that the minimal definition in (a) is both as far as we
should go in excluding presentation and as far as we can go while still retaining
some substance to call XML.
Charles Frankston's recent comments show us our choice: we can draw the line in
defending the DTD as defined by XML 1.0 or we can admit that syntax is an aspect
of presentation and that we are as likely to have as many different syntactic
structures as style sheets to apply to the marked semantics of a given document.
As this list, and the use of XML, have expanded to developers from a wider range
of disciplines, new arrivals have brought from their particular experience
different, and, finally, mutually exclusive, opinions of what are normal,
desirable, or even permissible syntactic premises. Sticking only to text as the
stuff of XML documents, we have already seen how differently the database people
and the DOM people conceive the appropriate syntax for equivalent semantics.
This schism was inherent in the seditious nature of XML as originally defined. By
separating validity from WFness, XML implicitly offered the option of ignoring an
author's DTD. It was always possible in XML, unlike SGML, to take a document 'on
its own terms', even where that conflicted with the author's intent delineated in
a DTD.It has from the first been only a matter of time until other schemas and
processing paradigms routinely substituted their syntactic rules in the
consumption of a document for those which might have constrained the author in
its creation.
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From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Tue Aug 11 02:33:17 1998
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <199808110030.RAA29421@boethius.eng.sun.com>
[Marcus Carr:]
| Lou Reynolds (former substantial shareholder in EBT (now
| Inso)) left us with a great line when he was in Australia a
| few years ago - "Another year and we'll all be drinking
| champagne out of fire hoses". While I continue to believe
| that this will be the case, it's hard to forget that it was
| uttered by one who is no longer in the game ... :-)
Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
happily retired...
Jon
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From cfranks at microsoft.com Tue Aug 11 03:36:18 1998
From: cfranks at microsoft.com (Charles Frankston)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:44 2004
Subject: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
Message-ID:
Yes, it appears that Murata-san is correct. Note that the new MSXML.DLL
that is available with the Developer Preview of IE5 supports both big and
little endian UCS-2 encodings.
-----Original Message-----
From: MURATA Makoto [mailto:murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp]
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 1998 9:13 PM
To: shamada@ssel.toshiba.co.jp
Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: How to process Japanese Code with XMLDSO(MS-XML)
Hamada wrote:
> Do you mean that C++ MS-XML Parser enbedded in IE4 can't process support
big
> endian but UTF-16?
It can't handle big endian UTF-16. Correct me if I am wrong. > Colleagues
at
Microsoft
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Tue Aug 11 03:46:51 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:47 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
References: <3.0.5.32.19980808120229.00885da0@postoffice.swbell.net>
Message-ID: <35CFA20A.5696@hiwaay.net>
W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
>
> It's definitely not clear from the
> WSP Web site exactly what it *is* or what it plans to *do*. I'd like to
> know more.
They could work, as the VRML consortium and list members do, with
NIST or some other legitimate and credible organization to create
conformance test suites.
It applies no force but it exposes a broken contract.
Len Bullard
Intergraph Public Safety
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Tue Aug 11 03:50:37 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:47 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
Message-ID:
Murray Altheim writes:
>Unfortunately, I do not believe
>compatibility with XML 1.0 validation is on the minds of all participants
>and see a schism arising: XML 1.0 compatible, and XML-subset compatible.
And Peter Murray-Rust writes:
>Subset?
Have to admit, I'm falling toward the subset camp. I talk a lot about 'simple
XML', which is just the instance syntax without declarations of any kind
except the XML one of course. I tried writing about the layer in between that
and what I consider the 'meat' of validation, elements and attributes, and
can't say I was happy, though I completed the exercise.
I'll stick with XML 1.0 - all this time figuring out its quirks, and I'll
still admit to liking it - but I can certainly understand why a lot of people
could get along with just a subset. I'd have been a lot more comfortable with
a three layer spec, for
-instance syntax
-structural declarations
-minimization declarations
But I can always pray for that next time around.
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Tue Aug 11 03:55:46 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:47 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
References: <3.0.32.19980808113318.00a26100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35CFA426.3D8E@hiwaay.net>
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> Is
> it worthwhile, at this point in history, trying to retroactively
> save HTML? Real question. -Tim
It is worthwhile:
o To support an effort to create a standard for an object-framework
that is componentized, incrementally extensible, and competitive at the
level of the components
o To support standard interfaces into this framework that ensure
correct and testable property handling without requiring a reference
implementation
o To create a conformance test suite that enables developers to
know with certainty the level(s) to which they conform to the
framework and any data or procedural language it supports.
o To create sample implementations for this framework which enable
the core framework containers and components to be shared
o To pick a set of core languages which are to be supported by
all conforming implementations of the object framework
Using your collective experience with HTML, XML, VRML, DOM, XSL, XLL,
object-centric implementations with middleware standards, you can do
this. Or you can work with Microsoft to complete its work toward
that end.
Len Bullard
Intergraph Public Safety
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From mrc at allette.com.au Tue Aug 11 04:05:36 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:47 2004
Subject: XSchema question
References: <199808110030.RAA29421@boethius.eng.sun.com>
Message-ID: <35CFA6AD.253D204C@allette.com.au>
Jon Bosak wrote:
> Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
> happily retired...
Hopefully we can all meet Lou and each other at the first annual 'Wealthy Former
SGML/XMLers Confrence'. I'm proposing the Barrier Reef, but will of course be
flexible...
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www: http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
_______________________________________________________________
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Tue Aug 11 04:29:19 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: XSchema question
References: <199808110030.RAA29421@boethius.eng.sun.com> <35CFA6AD.253D204C@allette.com.au>
Message-ID: <35CFABF9.2DB3@hiwaay.net>
Marcus Carr wrote:
>
> Jon Bosak wrote:
>
> > Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
> > happily retired...
I am reminded of stories of insider trading in which some retiring
gentleman trumpeted overvalued stock just prior to cashing out.
> Hopefully we can all meet Lou and each other at the first annual 'Wealthy Former
> SGML/XMLers Confrence'. I'm proposing the Barrier Reef, but will of course be
> flexible...
As far as I know, you can hold that reunion in a rowboat and
spell each other at the oars. SGML didn't make too many
folks wealthy (I can think of three but one already had
money.) XML might, but the tendancy these days is to
make money on applications as the market for core technology
is gutted.
On the other hand, domain name trading turned profitable and
I keep wondering when the rush to conquer and own namespaces
will begin. In a document of interweaving hierarchies, it
would be good to control the central threads. Copyright law
applied to namespaces... hmm.
len
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From mrc at allette.com.au Tue Aug 11 05:07:31 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35CFB549.7A6CC7@allette.com.au>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> I think we are in the experimental phase of XML where we are asking the
> wider world whether validation is valuable. To many established SGML people
> the lack of validation is near heresy.
Not in all cases - a document written from a database is an obvious example of a
one that you could accept with a fair degree of confidence, but of course this is
due to the fact that a) some validation has been done by another application, and
b) it is known that there are rigid and well defined boundaries, as might be the
case with your data. I haven't looked at your DTD for a long time, but I assume
that your structures are more regular than something like legislation, where
you're forced to follow the convention of the drafters in order to avoid an
unintentional change to the law (usually not a good thing).
> As I have often
> (probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
> semantic than syntactic validity.
I could see that being the case; within your community there is an implied
understanding of the underlying structure - your DTD maps structures that exist
in fact and have been learned by understanding the rules governing physics. With
other areas of information though, I think this can be less so, so the
requirement for and benefit obtained by validation is much more apparent. I feel
it's more valid to frame questions such as "is validation valuable?" in a
worst-case scenario - if you spend any time with legislation, you quickly realise
that although there generally could be underlying common structures, the drafters
often have not respected this fact.
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www: http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 11 05:33:56 1998
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: XSchema question
Message-ID: <00a101bdc4d9$65ab14a0$95addccf@ix.netcom.com>
>SGML didn't make too many
>folks wealthy (I can think of three but one already had
>money.)
Engineers seldom get wealthy, but those that own them often do!
I personally know the guy ( who is technologically brilliant, but a business
incompetent) who owns the patents on one of the break through technologies
in medicine, I can't tell you which or you would know who he is, (his
royalties were signed off of course to his employer at the time.)
His employers made tens of millions, possibly billions, and Stan? He is
retired on a pitifully small pension.
I take him out for a drink and a game of golf occasionally, and he's
grateful. The poor b****ar can't even afford a new car! and we are talking
about a technology that saved numerous lives, founded mega-corps, and made
numerous shareholders rich.
Without too much effort I'm sure that most of us can think of similar
examples
But you know what, he's happy. He did his thing, and I think that that,
rather than $ is the driving force for most of us.
Frank
Frank Boumphrey
XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm
Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com
-----Original Message-----
From: len bullard
To: Marcus Carr
Cc:
Date: Monday, August 10, 1998 10:30 PM
Subject: Re: XSchema question
>Marcus Carr wrote:
>>
>> Jon Bosak wrote:
>>
>> > Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
>> > happily retired...
>
>I am reminded of stories of insider trading in which some retiring
>gentleman trumpeted overvalued stock just prior to cashing out.
>
>> Hopefully we can all meet Lou and each other at the first annual 'Wealthy
Former
>> SGML/XMLers Confrence'. I'm proposing the Barrier Reef, but will of
course be
>> flexible...
>
>As far as I know, you can hold that reunion in a rowboat and
>spell each other at the oars. SGML didn't make too many
>folks wealthy (I can think of three but one already had
>money.) XML might, but the tendancy these days is to
>make money on applications as the market for core technology
>is gutted.
>
>On the other hand, domain name trading turned profitable and
>I keep wondering when the rush to conquer and own namespaces
>will begin. In a document of interweaving hierarchies, it
>would be good to control the central threads. Copyright law
>applied to namespaces... hmm.
>
>len
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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>
>
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 08:37:03 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811065756.6c873ada@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 15:13 10/08/98 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote:
>peter murray rust wrote:
>
>>
>> As I have often
>> (probably boringly) said, I think my community is far more interested in
>> semantic than syntactic validity. (Actually they probably don't care about
>> either much...)
>
>
>How can you possibly have one without the other? If your syntax is
>bogus -- you won't get far with semantics. How can you?
I was probably being over-brief in my use of 'syntactic'. I meant that DTDs
only validate the syntactic structure of the document. Obviously we shall
insist on well-formed XML. Assume I have a content model:
And a chemist now wishes to include additional information (electron count)
in the molecule, e.g.
1.........
This breaks the content model. I have the following alternatives:
- tell the author it's not allowed. Kills the whole idea of XML immediately.
- produce and circulate a new DTD. Effectively impossible. It would be
redefined so often as to cause chaos.
- use ANY for all my content models (effectively scrapping content
validation)
use the DTD for a structural guide but not insist on validation. The DTD
can still be used to help drive authoring tools, support software, etc. So
my software tends to look like:
Molecule.java:
public void process() {
Vector atomVector = this.getChildrenWithElementName(LOCAL, "Atom");
Vector bondVector = this.getChildrenWithElementName(LOCAL, "Bond");
}
Note that this allows my to look for what I know to be there while
accepting that other stuff isn't.
For semantic validation I am far more concerned that an atom's atomic
number is between 0 an 100 and is not "-23.7" or "Mickey Mouse".
As you will agree, this is discipline-dependent but I expect to appeal
beyond chemistry.
HTH
P.
>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 08:37:10 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: IMPORTANT (Re: XSchema question)
In-Reply-To: <35CFABF9.2DB3@hiwaay.net>
References: <199808110030.RAA29421@boethius.eng.sun.com>
<35CFA6AD.253D204C@allette.com.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811071341.6c87fcae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 21:27 10/08/98 -0500, len bullard wrote:
[...]
>>
>> > Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
>> > happily retired...
>
>I am reminded of stories of insider trading in which some retiring
>gentleman trumpeted overvalued stock just prior to cashing out.
>
I am sure it was not meant this way, but please be absolutely scrupulous
not to post things that could be misinterpreted and cause offence or be
actionable.. We are a public mailing list, so this is a public utterance.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 08:37:10 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (was Re: XSchema question)
In-Reply-To: <00a101bdc4d9$65ab14a0$95addccf@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811071702.6b371a38@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 23:37 10/08/98 -0400, Frank Boumphrey wrote:
>>SGML didn't make too many
>>folks wealthy (I can think of three but one already had
>>money.)
>
>Engineers seldom get wealthy, but those that own them often do!
>
>
This is not really core XML-DEV business.
[... unnecessary quoting of previous article and XML-DEV signature snipped
...]
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 08:37:17 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To:
References:
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811070529.65ffb1e6@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 18:26 10/08/98 -0400, Steven Champeon wrote:
>
>
>I speak for myself, not for anyone else. Now, with that, I'll stop
>posting on this thread, which has already gone far afield of the core
>subject matter for the list. Apologies to Peter and everyone else.
No problem. I think you can assume that a large number of XML-DEVers
support the idea of interoperability and that individuals or organisations
may join you. Personally it looks a good idea. I think the relevance to XML
will very much be:
- can I transmit XML over the wire in a software independent manner? (e.g.
I do not have to embed a processing instruction identifying the XML browser
to be used).
- can I embed XML in HTML and make sure that I can extract it precisely?
- can I write xHTML (i.e. HTML in XML syntax) and have it cleanly and
precisely processed.
I suspect that we (as XML-DEV) would all say yes to these (and probably
more that I haven't thought of.) You are welcome to link to this statement
from your pages if it's useful :-)
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 08:37:24 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:49 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <35CF8430.AA3A9530@fiduciary.com>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
<35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811073526.0bef9886@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 19:37 10/08/98 -0400, W. E. Perry wrote:
[...]
>
>I think that we have here the fundamental question of XML and, with it, the
>likeliest source of schism among us. XML is routinely introduced as
> a) the (infinitely) extensible markup language, based on the
mechanical
>concept of well-formedness, on five hard-wired entities, and the three
reserved
>characters ordered 'xml';
> and also as
> b) a formal subset of ISO-standard SGML.
>The hope expressed with both of these formulations is that XML will be
used to
>mark up meaning rather than presentation. Without terribly much extension,
>'presentation' quickly comes to include syntactic forms, and there is a
>reasonable argument that the minimal definition in (a) is both as far as we
>should go in excluding presentation and as far as we can go while still
retaining
>some substance to call XML.
This encapsulates my views nicely. In fact I am in both camps.
With CML (unlikely though it may seem) we have to have an extremely fluid
DTD. That is because we don't understand chemistry. It was put well by
Democritos "Nothing exists except atoms and empty space - all else is
opinion". The Chemical Bond is simply an opinion and people fight about it
just as much as over XML matters. So CML is increasingly becoming very
sparse (atoms, bond and electrons, with a bit of geometry). That allows
authors free expression.
OTOH for a pharma company producing a compound registry validation is
critical and I would support it.
I am increasingly doing work in XML for healthcare and in that area
validation is critical. I am constructing documents which may be included
in the regulatory process and this will be DTD-driven. My guess is that I
shall use a flexible componentised DTD for the initial design of a document
- in that way it can be done quickly and revised in real-time. When the
client comes to sign it off it can be transformed into a really rigid tool
if required.
I am sure that we shall not create a schism in the religious sense of the
world. It's possible that some tools may be WF-centric and others
DTD-centric. Hopefully many will do both. We could make a start (as we have
already discussed) about giving precise instructions to parsers.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 10:20:47 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980810162029.00a0c220@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811092150.6c87a34a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 16:20 10/08/98 -0700, Tim Bray wrote:
>There's a new IBM/Microsoft submission at
>
> http://www.w3.org/Submission
I assume this is the same document as at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-dcd
My comments are directed to the latter.
> fashion as traditional XML DTDs. DCD also provides additional properties,
> such as basic datatypes.
I am primarily concerned with the basic datatypes section 4. I want to use
these (or something like them) in CML, healthcare and so on. I shall
extract this subset of the document and re-use the concepts in JUMBO2.
(Having spent many years weaning myself off FORTRAN, I'm not very excited
by section 4.3 (COBOL pictures) and shan't implement them, but I assume
they meet mainstream database longings. They look awfully like bolting
presentation/formatting into XML which we are told is a Bad Thing.
Shouldn't this be a stylesheet issue?)
I note that max and min have changed from being content to attributes. I
just re-tooled to be XML-data-compatible ( and as children of
the element. I used to write my variables like:
1.8
but found that things like units were too rich to be a simple attribute. So
I moved, XML-data-like, to having them all as children. I am not convinced
they should be attributes.
Pro:
they are defaulted in the schema
they don't appear in the tree
Con:
they can't (easily) be tailored for each instance because they don't
occur in the document (unless I have the schema mechanism wrong)
they can't be qualified (e.g.
1.2
>
>I have lots of opinions about it, which can wait for Montreal now. -Tim
We'd be delighted if you feel inspired to answer any queries before then...
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue Aug 11 10:46:02 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <000701bdc3e2$0d9c1540$dc6118cb@caleb>
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980811104233.007255f4@ifi.uio.no>
* James K. Tauber
>
>It occurs to me (despite our early discussions, Lars) that we could use
>architectural forms---namely to link XSA and OSD. That is, by making XSA an
>AF of OSD.
I've been thinking along the same lines. Even if we don't go that far
(which I'm not sure makes sense) it should be possible to use OSD documents
for XSA purposes. At the very least the XSA SDK should be able to extract
the relevant data from OSD documents. I'll look into this and come back
with an amended proposal.
--Lars M.
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 12:04:53 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D018E5.446E07E@mecomnet.de>
the assertion below re validation appears here time and again. this forum has,
however, yet to bear witness to such a demonstration.
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
> At 12:27 10/08/98 -0700, Murray Altheim wrote:
> [...]
> >
> >Peter,
> >
>
> >over the working group archives to see that compatibility is not a given.
>
> These are not generally available...
would someone be so kind as to edit the appropriate contributions to the
working group archive to make them available for public consumption.
>
> >In all but trivial DTDs namespaces have been shown to be incompatible with
> >XML 1.0 validation (or at very least more manual effort than would be
> >worth the trouble*). The solution for validating moderately complex
> >structures using qualified names without wholescale rewriting of existing
> >DTDs has not yet been found. It is a given that any such alternative
please give examples of the cases which cannot be validated.
> >validation solution would be inherently incompatible with existing the
> >validation methodology (ie., the SGML-compatible declaration syntax in
> >XML 1.0).
this may be true (wrt. the methodology, not the syntax), but, in the long run,
that does not matter.
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From byrnes at prl.research.philips.com Tue Aug 11 12:12:26 1998
From: byrnes at prl.research.philips.com (Nigel Byrnes)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Developer Course
Message-ID: <35D01916.BD7CD67C@prl.research.philips.com>
Hi
As an xml newbie, I am looking to ramp up my xml knowledge and
skills fast. I am aware of the xml developers workshop happening
in Montreal later this month, but do you guys know of any other
courses/tutorials which are more focused on
developing/processing xml content (rather than introducing the
envelope of what xml is capable of)?
thanks
nigel
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 13:57:56 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Developer Course
In-Reply-To: <35D01916.BD7CD67C@prl.research.philips.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811125933.0ecf0f04@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 11:12 11/08/98 +0100, Nigel Byrnes wrote:
>Hi
>
>As an xml newbie, I am looking to ramp up my xml knowledge and
>skills fast. I am aware of the xml developers workshop happening
>in Montreal later this month, but do you guys know of any other
>courses/tutorials which are more focused on
>developing/processing xml content (rather than introducing the
>envelope of what xml is capable of)?
This is an important area. I'd suggest looking at:
- the tutorials appended (or prepended) to GCA meetings. There are several
parallel sessions normally spread over a two-day period and over a wider
range of material (not just XML)
- try SGML University (haven't got the URL - try www.sil.org/sgml/xml.html)
- try OASIS - the XML vendor/user association - was SGML Open (again look
on sil.org for URL)
Also we in Nottingham are developing XML training and materials. We have
already run a virtual course on Java/XML (see
http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk) last year and would certainly resurrect
it if there were demand. Since it will be modular we can configure it for
different needs - it would proably be aimed at structured content rather
than intricacies of textual rendering. And we are starting to run real-life
seminars (at present UK) by invitation - see for example...
http://www.netproject.com/netproject_pages/new_schedule.htm
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 13:59:35 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces and
XML validation)
In-Reply-To: <35D018E5.446E07E@mecomnet.de>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811130033.0ecfd9a2@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 12:11 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>would someone be so kind as to edit the appropriate contributions to the
>working group archive to make them available for public consumption.
[There are two issues here:
- making available
- editing
The second is an enormous labour - e.g., close observers will note that I
haven't found time for several months to edit XML-Jewels. There are several
possible actions:
- sanitising (i.e. taking out any thing that cannot appear in public)
- normalising (i.e. removing redundant material)
- annotating
etc.]
I have considerable sympathy with this request and suggest that if anyone
on the WG reads this, they might consider pressing this inside the W3C.
There are two independent archives:
XML-SIG, contributed to by ca 100 invited experts including me. The SIG
archive has been made available at intervals - I don't know whether there
is an automatic policy.
XML-WG, of about 12 members and invited experts. XML-SIG members can read
the XML-WG lists and are occasionally encouraged to do so because matters
are initiated there.
I have the following reasons for suggesting publishing:
- it saves going over existing ground. Thus the XML-SIG spent probably
2000 emails on namespaces and the discussion was of extremely high quality.
It would be inappropriate to relive it all again here (although parts of it
might spark of relevant discussion). I would hope that it could be
published after a month or two delay.
- it is a historical archive. This is extremely important to me (and to
henryR). In XML we are building the railways of the 21st century and it
would be a historical disaster if records were lost. It's quite possible
that our e-mail discussion of 1998 will appear just as fascinating in the
long-term future as the blueprints, letters and equipment of the early
railways do to us.
It is at least partly for the latter reason that HenryR and I try to keep
some constraints on how the material appears on XML-DEV (i.e. useful thread
titles, normalised contributions, clarity, etc.) Do not underestimate how
quickly information decays - HenryR tells us that the early use of the
Chemical Internet is now largely lost irretrievably.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From tms at ansa.co.uk Tue Aug 11 14:53:30 1998
From: tms at ansa.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: Steven Champeon's message of "Sat, 8 Aug 1998 19:18:29 -0400 (EDT)"
References:
Message-ID:
Steven> Steven Champeon
0> In article ,
0> Steven wrote:
Steven> I mean, %$#!@, most of the suits I've worked for didn't
Steven> know what 8-bit ASCII was, ...
Well, I'm sure there would be plenty here who'd like to know. ASCII
is a 7-bit character coding scheme - nothing more, nothing less. The
term "8-bit ASCII" could be used to refer to any of a number of 8-bit
codes which coincide with ASCII for values under 128: ISO-8859-1,
ISO-8859-2, ..., ISO-8859-9, ISO-2022-JP (I think), the Windows and
Macintosh character sets, and others.
[BTW, when using US-ASCII as an entity character encoding, must one
declare it as UTF-8, and use other means to ensure that multi-byte
characters don't occur?]
--
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 15:51:59 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces and
XML validation)
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.19980811130033.0ecfd9a2@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D04E59.DF902CE0@mecomnet.de>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
> At 12:11 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>
> I have considerable sympathy with this request and suggest that if anyone
> on the WG reads this, they might consider pressing this inside the W3C.
sympathy is nice (thank you) - i'm more concerned with the legitimacy and
quality of the arguments in this forum and with the quality of the software
which i produce. of which the latter depends to some extent (at least wrt.
xml) on the former. thus my tenacity.
i am at a point where, should the present namespace wd eventually be ratified,
it would leave me no option, but to produce non-conforming software, if said
software is to function adequately. not because i am at odds with the drafts
goals, and not because there are inherent inadequacies in either namespaces or
dtd's, but because the present draft describes an encoding and suggests
implementation mechanisms which are incomplete wrt its own stated goals.
furthermore, for reasons which i cannot fathom, the draft simply stops short
of providing the basis for what would be sufficient mechanisms. (the initial
questions are up on xml-names-issues)
XSchema's, XML-Data, and Document Content Descriptions may well provide
features additional to XML/DTD encoding at some point in the future. since,
however, the respective proposals either do not, at least in their present
versions, provide adequate support for the particular problem of
disambiguating names, or depend on the support of the base xml encoding, i do
not believe the arguments, to wait for these successors.
it is necessary to handle "name identity" in the encoding - that is in XML
itself. my experience is that it is also possible. if this is not true, could
someone please explain why it is not. if this has already been hashed out in
the mythical 2000 messages, then please just put them on the net.
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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Aug 11 16:01:23 1998
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To: Toby Speight's message of 11 Aug 1998 13:55:26 +0100
Message-ID: <199808111401.PAA13797@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
> [BTW, when using US-ASCII as an entity character encoding, must one
> declare it as UTF-8, and use other means to ensure that multi-byte
> characters don't occur?]
You don't *have* to declare it at all, since UTF-8 is the default. If
you do declare it, you can use any of the ascii supersets you mention,
but only UTF-8 is required to be recognised.
For English documents you might also use ISO-8859-1, on the grounds
that it's quite common to find apparently ascii documents that have
been enlivened with a soupçon of other western European languages.
You *could* declare it to be US-ASCII, which is an IANA-registered
name, but I wouldn't count on many processors recognising it.
-- Richard
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 16:36:33 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
Message-ID: <35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
Dean Roddey wrote:
> The other possible model, is that of Java. Java's model is basically like the
> "Use the whole URI" method, which is obviously yucky give the syntax of URIs.
But note that Java uses the model of the old draft: all minimization
declarations ("import" statements in Java jargon) must appear at the
beginning, and are global to the document.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 17:03:37 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces
and XML validation)
In-Reply-To: <35D04E59.DF902CE0@mecomnet.de>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
<3.0.1.16.19980811130033.0ecfd9a2@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811160519.74bfc432@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 15:59 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>>
>> At 12:11 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>>
>> I have considerable sympathy with this request and suggest that if anyone
>> on the WG reads this, they might consider pressing this inside the W3C.
>
>sympathy is nice (thank you) - i'm more concerned with the legitimacy and
>quality of the arguments in this forum and with the quality of the software
>which i produce. of which the latter depends to some extent (at least wrt.
>xml) on the former. thus my tenacity.
To make it clear - I have no power other than that of the plebs. (i.e. I
cannot release the material). I have been very conscious of the fact that
many people of this list have offered services to the XML community and
have done this without full knowledge of the namespace arguments. I think
they have shown remarkable discipline. I agree it makes it difficult to
have a full discussion if people cannot be made aware of previous
arguments. I am conscious that having offered the services of this list for
help with namespace implementation there are these potential constraints to
finding innovative solutions.
>
>i am at a point where, should the present namespace wd eventually be
ratified,
>it would leave me no option, but to produce non-conforming software, if said
>software is to function adequately. not because i am at odds with the drafts
>goals, and not because there are inherent inadequacies in either
namespaces or
>dtd's, but because the present draft describes an encoding and suggests
>implementation mechanisms which are incomplete wrt its own stated goals.
My own view (which I stated to the SIG) was that the goals weren't clear
enough. Unlike many other drafts there are no 10 golden rules against which
to measure the draft.
>furthermore, for reasons which i cannot fathom, the draft simply stops short
>of providing the basis for what would be sufficient mechanisms. (the initial
>questions are up on xml-names-issues)
Thanks. I hope you get some feedback.
>
>XSchema's, XML-Data, and Document Content Descriptions may well provide
>features additional to XML/DTD encoding at some point in the future. since,
>however, the respective proposals either do not, at least in their present
>versions, provide adequate support for the particular problem of
>disambiguating names, or depend on the support of the base xml encoding, i do
>not believe the arguments, to wait for these successors.
I have no background on XML-Data and DCD, but XSchema people only got news
of 1998-08-02 on that date and I think they have done incredibly well to
reconfigure.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 17:06:11 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:50 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces
and XML validation)
In-Reply-To: <35D04E59.DF902CE0@mecomnet.de>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
<3.0.1.16.19980811130033.0ecfd9a2@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811160519.0d07b77a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 15:59 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>>
>> At 12:11 11/08/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>>
>> I have considerable sympathy with this request and suggest that if anyone
>> on the WG reads this, they might consider pressing this inside the W3C.
>
>sympathy is nice (thank you) - i'm more concerned with the legitimacy and
>quality of the arguments in this forum and with the quality of the software
>which i produce. of which the latter depends to some extent (at least wrt.
>xml) on the former. thus my tenacity.
To make it clear - I have no power other than that of the plebs. (i.e. I
cannot release the material). I have been very conscious of the fact that
many people of this list have offered services to the XML community and
have done this without full knowledge of the namespace arguments. I think
they have shown remarkable discipline. I agree it makes it difficult to
have a full discussion if people cannot be made aware of previous
arguments. I am conscious that having offered the services of this list for
help with namespace implementation there are these potential constraints to
finding innovative solutions.
>
>i am at a point where, should the present namespace wd eventually be
ratified,
>it would leave me no option, but to produce non-conforming software, if said
>software is to function adequately. not because i am at odds with the drafts
>goals, and not because there are inherent inadequacies in either
namespaces or
>dtd's, but because the present draft describes an encoding and suggests
>implementation mechanisms which are incomplete wrt its own stated goals.
My own view (which I stated to the SIG) was that the goals weren't clear
enough. Unlike many other drafts there are no 10 golden rules against which
to measure the draft.
>furthermore, for reasons which i cannot fathom, the draft simply stops short
>of providing the basis for what would be sufficient mechanisms. (the initial
>questions are up on xml-names-issues)
Thanks. I hope you get some feedback.
>
>XSchema's, XML-Data, and Document Content Descriptions may well provide
>features additional to XML/DTD encoding at some point in the future. since,
>however, the respective proposals either do not, at least in their present
>versions, provide adequate support for the particular problem of
>disambiguating names, or depend on the support of the base xml encoding, i do
>not believe the arguments, to wait for these successors.
I have no background on XML-Data and DCD, but XSchema people only got news
of 1998-08-02 on that date and I think they have done incredibly well to
reconfigure.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Tue Aug 11 17:44:27 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
On 11 Aug 1998, Toby Speight wrote:
> Steven> I mean, %$#!@, most of the suits I've worked for didn't
> Steven> know what 8-bit ASCII was, ...
>
> Well, I'm sure there would be plenty here who'd like to know. ASCII
> is a 7-bit character coding scheme - nothing more, nothing less. The
> term "8-bit ASCII" could be used to refer to any of a number of 8-bit
> codes which coincide with ASCII for values under 128: ISO-8859-1,
> ISO-8859-2, ..., ISO-8859-9, ISO-2022-JP (I think), the Windows and
> Macintosh character sets, and others.
Forgive me for using the vulgate.
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com <-- rants and writings
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ <-- projects and info
http://dhtml.hesketh.com <-- coming soon
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 18:10:06 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Offtopic: Web Standards Project
References:
Message-ID: <35D06CA5.8A8C7F0E@locke.ccil.org>
Toby Speight wrote:
> Well, I'm sure there would be plenty here who'd like to know. ASCII
> is a 7-bit character coding scheme - nothing more, nothing less. The
> term "8-bit ASCII" could be used to refer to any of a number of 8-bit
> codes which coincide with ASCII for values under 128: ISO-8859-1,
> ISO-8859-2, ..., ISO-8859-9, ISO-2022-JP (I think), the Windows and
> Macintosh character sets, and others.
ISO/IEC 8859-1 is, or was, reimplemented as an American National
Standard under the title "8-bit American Standard Code for Information
Interchange", i.e. "8-bit ASCII". (I can't find this in the current
ANSI catalog, so it may have been revoked in favor of 8859-1.)
However, this has nothing to do with the charset name "US-ASCII",
which refers only to 7-bit ISO/IEC 646:1991, which is the same as
7-bit ASCII, ANSI X3.4.
> [BTW, when using US-ASCII as an entity character encoding, must one
> declare it as UTF-8, and use other means to ensure that multi-byte
> characters don't occur?]
No, you can declare it as "US-ASCII". In theory, parsers may throw
a fatal error because they don't support that encoding. In practice,
no parser is at all likely to do so.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 18:26:33 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811092524.00c25240@207.34.179.21>
At 09:21 AM 8/11/98, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>I am primarily concerned with the basic datatypes section 4. I want to use
>these (or something like them) in CML, healthcare and so on. I shall
>extract this subset of the document and re-use the concepts in JUMBO2.
Not now! Everyone agrees that we need datatypes. I expect some cheerful
& constructive bloodletting in the SIG & WG as to which set of datatypes
we need. Anybody who invests effort in that set at this time is spinning
wheels.
On the other hand, bearing what you say in mind, I think there may be
a sane case to be made for decoupling the task of identifying the set
of datatypes from that of defining the rest of the schema mechanics;
however we end up specifying the datatypes, the heavy typechecking
coding will be about the same, and it might be nice to give that a
head-start.
>I note that max and min have changed from being content to attributes.
No! Read the early part of the spec. Per RDF, these things are
*properties*, which can be given either as elements or attributes.
-Tim
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 18:34:23 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces
and XML validation)
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
<3.0.1.16.19980811130033.0ecfd9a2@pop3.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.19980811160519.74bfc432@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D07459.6A98F1B0@mecomnet.de>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
>...
> >
> >i am at a point where, should the present namespace wd eventually be
> ratified,
> >it would leave me no option, but to produce non-conforming software, if said
> >software is to function adequately. not because i am at odds with the drafts
> >goals, and not because there are inherent inadequacies in either
> namespaces or
> >dtd's, but because the present draft describes an encoding and suggests
> >implementation mechanisms which are incomplete wrt its own stated goals.
>
> My own view (which I stated to the SIG) was that the goals weren't clear
> enough. Unlike many other drafts there are no 10 golden rules against which
> to measure the draft.
i have been taking the second and third sentences in the section on
"motivation and summary" at face value. they read
"... documents, [which contain] markup from multiple independent sources, pose
problems of recognition and collision. Software modules need to be able to
recognize the markup (tags and attributes) which they are designed to process,
even in the face of "collisions" occurring when markup intended for some other
software package uses the same element type or attribute name.
These considerations require that document constructs should have names, whose
scope extends beyond the containing document. this specification describes a
mechanism, XML namespaces, which accomplishes this."
i may quibble with the wording, and i may differ with the authors, in that it
would greatly simplfy processing if one recognized that the same problem
applies to entites, notations, etc, but i understand this to be a clear and
unequivocal the goal - even in the absence of golden rules.
i'm not talking about inheritance - of attributes (per se) or of type, or
about architectural forms, or about typing attribute values or element
content. just about decoding and encoding names unambiguously.
i'm directing attention to the fact, that the present draft suggests encodings
and mechanisms which are not sufficient to accomplish this, its own correct
and achievable goal.
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 19:18:08 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Error in WD-DOM-19980720: Notation has no nodeType value
Message-ID: <35D07CB6.F12BFC52@locke.ccil.org>
Although Notation is a subinterface of Node, there is no
nodeType value to represent a Notation within Node.
I propose the obvious: within interface Node, add:
const unsigned short NOTATION = 12;
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca Tue Aug 11 19:26:00 1998
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Error in WD-DOM-19980720: Notation has no nodeType value
In-Reply-To: <35D07CB6.F12BFC52@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808111725.KAA20930@sqwest.bc.ca>
At 11/08/98 10:17 AM , John Cowan wrote:
>Although Notation is a subinterface of Node, there is no
>nodeType value to represent a Notation within Node.
>
>I propose the obvious: within interface Node, add:
>
> const unsigned short NOTATION = 12;
This fix will be in the next version of the DOM spec. Might I suggest you
join the public DOM mailing list? To subscribe, send email to
www-dom-request@w3.org with the subject "subscribe"; to send email to that
list, send it to www-dom@w3.org. This way, we don't overwhelm xml-dev.
thanks,
Lauren
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From dgd at cs.bu.edu Tue Aug 11 19:29:04 1998
From: dgd at cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
In-Reply-To: <35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
Message-ID:
At 10:36 AM -0400 8/11/98, John Cowan wrote:
>But note that Java uses the model of the old draft: all minimization
>declarations ("import" statements in Java jargon) must appear at the
>beginning, and are global to the document.
The equivalent to this policy for XML would be for the "minimization
declarations" to be local to the _entity_. This idea was discussed, but
found lacking. The equivalent to the old mechanism would be if a
declaration in one storage unit (Java file) could affect code in other
storage units (Java files). In XML, under the original proposal, the root
entity was privileged and the only one that could declare prefixes; no way
was provided to prevent those prefixes from colliding with prefixes in
other external entities.
A Java file isn't a complete Java program, any more than an XML entity is a
complete document. Careful consideration of the implications of adopting
entity-based scoping led to the conclusion that it's more confusing, and
harder to implement on top of things like SAX.
Local declarations _allow_ the avoidance of prefix conflicts without
_requiring_ any problems in validation. There's a tradeoff to be made. One
can even keep validation and local declarations, if say, a particular
element (say ) is always intended to hold information in a
particular namespace. The element could have a #FIXED declaration in the
DTD (or internal subset) and still validate just fine.
Global declarations can still cause problems with validation, but _don't_
provide any way to manage prefixes to avoid collisions, especially in the
case where validation is not an issue. The level of effort required for
validation is higher, and it's certainly not the case that namespaces will
_allow_ lots of incorrect _valid_ documents. They may make some "correct"
documents invalid, but that was always a potential problem with namespaces,
especially when used as an instance-fragment combining mechanism.
-- David
_________________________________________
David Durand dgd@cs.bu.edu \ david@dynamicDiagrams.com
Boston University Computer Science \ Sr. Analyst
http://www.cs.bu.edu/students/grads/dgd/ \ Dynamic Diagrams
--------------------------------------------\ http://www.dynamicDiagrams.com/
MAPA: mapping for the WWW \__________________________
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 19:31:34 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces
and XML validation)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811102939.00c35ec0@207.34.179.21>
At 06:42 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>i'm directing attention to the fact, that the present draft suggests encodings
>and mechanisms which are not sufficient to accomplish this, its own correct
>and achievable goal.
Although I read this mailing list pretty regularly, I missed the posting in
which you demonstrated that this was the case. I suspect others may have,
as well. Could you post a pointer into the hypermail archive to the
message where you argued this? -Tim
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From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue Aug 11 19:34:44 1998
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Message-ID: <5030300023940327000002L072*@MHS>
>XML-Data is a note that was submitted to the W3C by Microsoft and a
>couple of partners -- it has no official status (a W3C "Note" means
>roughly "here's a neat idea from one of our members").
>
>XML 1.0 DTDs and proposed replacements/enhancements such as
>Microsoft's XML-Data and XML-Dev's XSchema perform three distinct
>roles:
Although now IBM, MS, and Tim B. have submitted the DCD proposal, which I
believe
supersedes MS' proposed XML-Data spec. DCD is kind of a mixture of XML-Data and
RDF schemes. Since IBM, MS, and Tim are behind it, it probably stands a good
chance
of making it I would think.
The proposed schema has been accepted and posted on the W3C site today I think.
Everyone
should check it out and comment.
----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 19:42:23 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:51 2004
Subject: Schemas and Other Crucial XML Questions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811104107.00c2e480@207.34.179.21>
At 01:39 PM 8/11/98 -0400, Dean Roddey wrote:
>Although now IBM, MS, and Tim B. have submitted the DCD proposal...
...
>The proposed schema has been accepted and posted on the W3C site today I think.
Be careful: "accepted" doesn't mean anything other than the W3C acknowledging
its existence. DCD has no more official status than any other
allegedly-bright idea from anybody. -Tim
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From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 11 19:46:57 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To:
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
David G. Durand writes:
[writing about scoping in Java classes]
> The equivalent to this policy for XML would be for the "minimization
> declarations" to be local to the _entity_.
Reasonable people may disagree: many of us believe (from SGML
experience, especially) that entities are simply slightly-constrained
storage units with no other special significance -- if Java had
#include files, then those would be the equivalents of XML entities.
As far as I may be allowed to compare tropical and temperate tree
fruit, the equivalent of a Java class is a complete XML document.
The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From simpson at polaris.net Tue Aug 11 20:04:43 1998
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811135924.00697480@polaris.net>
At 01:45 PM 8/11/98 -0400, David Megginson wrote:
>The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
"Forest"?
John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor,
simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be.
| -- "Kin" Hubbard
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 20:13:10 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
Message-ID: <35D08996.1C9AB67F@locke.ccil.org>
Since I can't be at Montreal, here's my (lengthy, but hopefully
complete) proposal for extending SAX 1.0. My design goals are:
o Supports current ns draft
o Conceptually compatible with David Megginson's XML-Dev
message of 8 August
o Equally useful for integral or layered implementations
o Fully backward compatible with SAX 1.0
1. A new optional application-side interface to allow applications to
intercept, record, and decode namespace scope events:
public interface NamespaceHandler {
public void startNamespaceScope (String prefix, String URI,
NamespaceResolver resolver);
public void endNamespaceScope (String prefix);
}
The startNamespaceScope event is called when a namespace comes into
scope, and the endNamespaceScope event when the namespace goes out of
scope. The NamespaceResolver objects passed in distinct calls to
startNamespaceScope may or may not be distinct objects.
Multiple namespace scopes may be declared by a single element.
The order of events is:
DocumentHandler.startElement,
NamespaceHandler.startNamespaceScope (may be repeated),
[events within scope]
NamespaceHandler.endNamespaceScope (may be repeated),
DocumentHandler.endElement.
It is an error if the URI is the null string and prefix is *not* the
null string.
2. A new standard SAX class (not an interface) for representing
UniversalNames:
public class UniversalName {
private String _URI;
private String _localPart;
public UniversalName(String URI, String localPart) {
_URI = URI; _localPart = localPart;
}
public String getURI () {return _URI;}
public String getLocalPart () {return _localPart;}
public long hashCode () {
return _URI.hashCode() ^ _localPart.hashCode();
}
public boolean equals (Object object) {
if (object instanceof UniversalName) {
UniversalName other = (UniversalName) object;
return _URI.equals(other._URI) &&
_localPart.equals(other._localPart);
}
else return false;
}
}
This is a class so that it can have a standard constructor. Either
parsers or applications can create UniversalName objects.
3. A new optional parser-side interface for resolving qualified names:
public interface NamespaceResolver {
public static final String INTERNAL_XML_URI = "x-xml:xml";
public static final String INTERNAL_XMLNS_URI = "x-xml:xmlns";
public void setNamespaceHandler (NamespaceHandler handler);
public UniversalName resolveElementName (String name)
throws SAXException;
public UniversalName resolveAttributeName (String name,
UniversalName elementName)
throws SAXException;
public String getType (AttributeList attlist,
UniversalName name);
public String getValue (AttributeList attlist,
UniversalName name);
}
To declare an interest in namespaces, an application implements
NamespaceHandler and calls NamespaceResolver.setNamespaceHandler.
By convention, a parser implements NamespaceResolver if and only
if it is namespace-aware. (This does not necessarily mean that
the NamespaceResolver objects passed to the NamespaceHandler are
== to the parser object.)
NamespaceResolver objects are valid from the time
NamespaceHandler.startNamespaceScope is called until the matching
call to NamespaceHandler.endNamespaceScope.
Applications can resolve an element name passed to
DocumentHandler.{start,end}Element into universal form by calling
resolveElementName. If there is no prefix, the resulting UniversalName
has an URI that is null.
Applications can resolve an attribute name retrieved from
AttributeList.getName into universal form by calling
resolveAttributeName. The UniversalName of the element to which this
attribute belongs is required so that the URI can be defaulted from
the element if there is no prefix on the attribute.
If a prefix is "xml" or "xmlns", and there has been no definition of
these prefixes, then the URI is == to INTERNAL_XML_URI or
INTERNAL_XMLNS_URI respectively. A SAXException is thrown if the prefix
is otherwise undefined.
The getType and getValue methods are convenience methods that allow
an application to search a currently available AttributeList object
using a UniversalName.
Comments?
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Tue Aug 11 20:30:18 1998
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:45:51 EDT."
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <199808111827.UAA03602@chimay.loria.fr>
"David G. Durand" dgd@cs.bu.edu said:
] The equivalent to this policy for XML would be for the "minimization
] declarations" to be local to the _entity_. This idea was discussed,
] but found lacking. The equivalent to the old mechanism would be if a
] declaration in one storage unit (Java file) could affect code in other
] storage units (Java files). In XML, under the original proposal, the
] root entity was privileged and the only one that could declare
] prefixes; no way was provided to prevent those prefixes from colliding
] with prefixes in other external entities.
Hmm and what about Element, Attribute and even Entity declarations within an
external subset DTD? (i've got in mind the pizza model of the TEI DTD). The
XML REC says that "If the same entity is declared more than once, the first
declaration encountered is binding;" (4.2 Entity Declarations). Why can't we
make the same kind of binding for NS prefixes ?
"David Megginson" david@megginson.com said:
] Reasonable people may disagree: many of us believe (from SGML
] experience, especially) that entities are simply slightly-constrained
] storage units with no other special significance -- if Java had
] #include files, then those would be the equivalents of XML entities.
I fully agree with you:
"An XML document is an XML document !"
I quote Lou Burnard who used to say that "an SGML document is an SGML
document" talking about entities and document fragments in SGML.
A Bient?t !
Pat.
--
==============================================================
bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228
http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52
--------------------------------------------------------------
* Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide
* Projet Aquarelle : http://aqua.inria.fr
==============================================================
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From Philippe.Le_Hegaret at sophia.inria.fr Tue Aug 11 20:59:55 1998
From: Philippe.Le_Hegaret at sophia.inria.fr (Philippe Le Hégaret)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: SAX and Emacs: validate XML documents.
Message-ID: <35D0949F.463AE2F1@sophia.inria.fr>
I made a little mode to validate XML documents with SAX
in Emacs.
This modes uses psgml-1.0.1 and font-lock.
Try the package at this URI :
ftp://koala.inria.fr/pub/plh/sxml-mode.zip
or see the online documentation :
http://www.inria.fr/koala/plh/sxml.html
Regards,
Philippe.
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:16:00 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: Availability of WG and SIG archives (was Re: Namespaces
and XML validation)
References: <3.0.32.19980811102939.00c35ec0@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D09A3B.D1AE7636@mecomnet.de>
i had posted a note towards the end of last week with a pointer to a series of
notes to xml-names-issues.
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-names-issues/1998JulSep/0007.html)
i've held off cross-posting them here, but trust that mr murray-rust will
forgive the transgression.
that said - to paraphrase my original clarification request:
there follow several postings which pose questions. i had endeavored to
determine the answers by reading the document, but (in particular with regard
to issues I through IV) had not arrived at answers sufficient to permit me to
implement conforming support in an xml processor.
the notes themselves contain pointers to additional messages with further illustrations.
i posed five requests for further information. i am posting them in separate messages.
I please specify the extent of the prefix binding as well as the scope.
II please establish a method to bind a prefix which covers external dtd subsets.
III please provide examples which describe processing in the presence of entities.
IV please specify the precedence rules for attribute "specification".
V please explain why namespace partitions are necessary.
----
VI (additional) the element name is resolved in the scope of its containing element.
I, III, IV, and VI precluded implementation.
II precludes the use of dtd's unless prefixes are elevated to global status -
which is not the goal of the endeavour.
in the intervening period, i have resolved the questions, for my immediate
purposes as follows:
I: prefix bindings in an element instance have dynamic scope and dynamic
extent within the decoder/encoder process. the immediate - that is
element-specific bindings - remain as attribute bindings available to the
application for examination and side effects, but have no effect on name
resolution outside of the decoding/encoding process.
i had no reason to implement indefinite bindings for attribute-based
prefixes, as i translate/intern attribute values (names, xpointers, etc.) as
part of the decoding process based on type declarations for attributes and
thereby avoid the need for the indefinite extent.
i suspect that lexical bindings (eg the bindings for an entity may differ
from those in effect at the point were it is included) would be difficult to
follow, so i ignore the entities lexical context, but that's a minor issue.
II: in addition to the wd's proposed "element instance attribute" binding
mechanism, i introduced two alternatives: "entity reference" and
"document/encoding declaration".
the element-instance mechanism is sufficient to resolve names within the
document entity. what remains is the requirement that names present in the
external dtd subset or in any other external entity be resolved unambiguously.
as the point of articulation is the boundary, and the respective forms on the
two sides of the boundary are the entity reference (or indirectly the
respective declaration) and the xml or encoding declaration, those are the
appropriate locations to bind prefixes. the former is appropriate for external
entities which themselves either have no support for namespaces or intend to
be mapped when referenced. the latter is appropriate for external entities
which intend to resolve the contained names. the bindings are encoded as
additional pseudo attributes.
III: see II. in keeping with I, at the point where an entity is referenced i
establish the bindings declared within the entity declaration only (that is,
none which were apparent within its definition context), and award them
dynamic extent.
IV: for the moment, i've chosen the precedence
tag-content,
bindings-from-containing-elements,
attribute-defaults
where the bindings-from-containing-elements takes its initial value from the xml-decl.
V: i still haven't discovered a situation where i've needed this. the
mechanism to resolve attribute declarations requires element specific stores,
but that has nothing to do with the names themselves.
VI (this wasn't among the original notes)
the prefix/uri bindings at the point where an element name is read cannot
include those effected by its attributes.
a. otherwise, the universal name is not unambiguous
b. given the bindings in the respective xml/encoding declarations, elements do
not need to be self qualifying. it is sufficient if they qualify their context.
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> At 06:42 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>
> >i'm directing attention to the fact, that the present draft suggests encodings
> >and mechanisms which are not sufficient to accomplish this, its own correct
> >and achievable goal.
>
> Although I read this mailing list pretty regularly, I missed the posting in
> which you demonstrated that this was the case. I suspect others may have,
> as well. Could you post a pointer into the hypermail archive to the
> message where you argued this? -Tim
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:19:14 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: the extent of the prefix binding
Message-ID: <35D09AF4.DD3756BF@mecomnet.de>
I. please specify the extent of the prefix binding as well as the scope
while the wd is clear that the scope of a prefix-to-uri binding within an
element is dynamic, the intended extent of the binding is unclear. the
discussion which has appeared on xml-dev, for example, leaves room for the
interpretation, that the binding has indefinite extent.
a binding which is afforded dynamic extent has a clearly understandable
semantics and is readily implemented, since the parser's state is sufficient
to implement the "inheritance". it would even be possible to implement it on
the basis of "ephemeral" attributes - which a serializer introduced into the
stream on the fly as needed and which a non validating parser would be free to
discard after application.
if the binding is intended to have an indefinite extent, which interpretation
some xml-dev discussion might be taken to imply, (see, for example, mr clark's
remark on passing state between the parser and the application for the purpose
of decoding attribute values:
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0173.html) then an
implementation which retains a defined semantics in the presence of side
effects is more difficult (it would appear analogous to the "upward funarg" problem).
since the benefit of supporting indefinite binding extent is unclear, i would
suspect that dynamic extent would be the better alternative, but ask for clarification.
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:22:21 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:52 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: external dtd subsets (and external entities in general)
Message-ID: <35D09B46.D74776D7@mecomnet.de>
II. please establish a method to bind a prefix which covers the internal and
external dtd subsets.
without such a mechanism, the dtd's denotation is undefined.
if, on the other hand, such a mechanism is provided, then validation is
possible on the basis of namespace-aware 1.0 conformant dtd's.
additional pseudo-attributes in the XMLDecl form would suffice.
please see my questions to xml-dev on this topic.
(http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0112.html, and
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0129.html)
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From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Tue Aug 11 21:23:00 1998
From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980811092524.00c25240@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID:
On Tue, 11 Aug 1998, Tim Bray wrote:
> At 09:21 AM 8/11/98, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> >I am primarily concerned with the basic datatypes section 4. I want to use
> >these (or something like them) in CML, healthcare and so on. I shall
> >extract this subset of the document and re-use the concepts in JUMBO2.
>
> Not now! Everyone agrees that we need datatypes. I expect some cheerful
> & constructive bloodletting in the SIG & WG as to which set of datatypes
> we need. Anybody who invests effort in that set at this time is spinning
> wheels.
>
> On the other hand, bearing what you say in mind, I think there may be
> a sane case to be made for decoupling the task of identifying the set
> of datatypes from that of defining the rest of the schema mechanics;
> however we end up specifying the datatypes, the heavy typechecking
> coding will be about the same, and it might be nice to give that a
> head-start.
Yes. FWIW the HTTP-NG group has a description of their proposed type
system in their Architectural Model working draft at:
http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP-NG/#Specs
particularly section 3 of
http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-HTTP-NG-architecture/
is relevant to this discussion.
(... RDF itself could do with having a few more interesting types than
String). So separating out the list of types from the mechanics
seems particularly well motivated given that there are possibly three related
W3C activities which could have their own way of representating the
chosen types.
Dan
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:28:28 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: precedence rules for attribute specification
Message-ID: <35D09C77.852B7F40@mecomnet.de>
IV. please specify the precedence rules for attribute "specification".
there are three states in the following matrix for which i cannot yet specify
the effective binding:
(ed = element default, cd = context default,
eb = element binding, cb = context binding)
default presence in attribute declaration
attribute
presence in
element -- -- | -- ed | cd -- | cd ed
---------------------------------------
| unbound | ed | cd | ? ? |
-- -- | | | | ? ? |
----------------------------------------
| | | | |
-- eb | eb | eb | eb | eb |
----------------------------------------
| | ? ? | | ? ? |
cb -- | cb | ?* ? | cb! | ? ? |
----------------------------------------
| | | | |
cb eb | eb | eb | eb | eb |
----------------------------------------
*: xml-dev discussion has implied that the context binding takes precedence,
but that would lead to capturing prefix bindings on included external entities
- which is not necessarily to be recommended. (see, for example, http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0152.html)
!: modulo the other ambiguities
i would suggest that the attribute declaration in the dtd should be afforded a
"lexical" scope which takes precedence over the dynamic scope of any bindings in
the element stream.
[19980810: i then went ahead and implemented the opposite, but i don't yet see
the choice as an essential issue, just so long as the choice is made]
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 21:29:05 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
In-Reply-To: <35D08996.1C9AB67F@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811202739.6c2fbcae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 14:12 11/08/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>Since I can't be at Montreal, here's my (lengthy, but hopefully
I don't think Montreal is critical - I don't think any RL meeting should
be. It's just that I get a chance to meet lots of new people and maybe feed
back some non e-ideas. No suggestion that there would be a RL XML-DEV meeting.
I'm keen that this takes place by the same XML-DEV processes. I think it's
essential that those who have posted on this subject start exchanging ideas
and possible timescales.
>complete) proposal for extending SAX 1.0. My design goals are:
>
> o Supports current ns draft
> o Conceptually compatible with David Megginson's XML-Dev
> message of 8 August
> o Equally useful for integral or layered implementations
> o Fully backward compatible with SAX 1.0
>
Looked a useful starting point. I think our experience has shown that it
takes longer than it looks (not sure why). But we need something fairly
badly, I think. My own effort is rather post-SAX in than I am hoping to
consume 'normalised' namespace information and then apply Java classes to
it. I shall probably post the current JUMBO fairly shortly - it is based
crudely on pre-0802 namespaces (e.g. it doesn't worry about the many2many
mapping).
One thing that we may have to bear in mind is whether we wish to preserve
any of the prefixes for subsequent authoring/transformation. For example,
if FOO is declared with a default namespace of http://foo.org do people
mind if it gets output as something like NS3:FOO? (where the prefixes run
from NS1 to NS10 or whatever). Personally - although I would like it - I
think that's too advanced and that prefixes are expanded and meaningless in
any transformation.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 11 21:29:10 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19980811092524.00c25240@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980811201758.0a1fd95a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 09:25 11/08/98 -0700, Tim Bray wrote:
>At 09:21 AM 8/11/98, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>>I am primarily concerned with the basic datatypes section 4. I want to use
>>these (or something like them) in CML, healthcare and so on. I shall
>>extract this subset of the document and re-use the concepts in JUMBO2.
>
>Not now! Everyone agrees that we need datatypes. I expect some cheerful
>& constructive bloodletting in the SIG & WG as to which set of datatypes
>we need. Anybody who invests effort in that set at this time is spinning
>wheels.
It's not a problem :-). The main effort is in getting the validation,
presentation, etc done. To add new datatypes or syntax is relatively
straightforward. And I'm not doing the whole lot, either - just the
commonest ones. And I wouldn't go near the COBOL stuff.
>
>On the other hand, bearing what you say in mind, I think there may be
>a sane case to be made for decoupling the task of identifying the set
>of datatypes from that of defining the rest of the schema mechanics;
>however we end up specifying the datatypes, the heavy typechecking
>coding will be about the same, and it might be nice to give that a
>head-start.
>
You yourself came up with XML-TYPE or whatever it was called - about 10
webyears ago. IMO that was nearly a no-brainer and orthogonal to any other
effort - it would have helped other activities since.
And the arguments are unlikely to stray beyond what the precise definition
of some weird type is... I can live without min and max in that spec if it
helps.
>>I note that max and min have changed from being content to attributes.
>
>No! Read the early part of the spec. Per RDF, these things are
>*properties*, which can be given either as elements or attributes.
I admit I haven't given it very much detailed attention. But given that
there are ElementDefs and AttributeDefs and that the latter produce
attributes... But I will read it more carefully. NNTR
> -Tim
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:29:46 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: namespace partitions
Message-ID: <35D09CBC.92500106@mecomnet.de>
V. please explain why namespace partitions are necessary.
it is neither clear why the namespace partitions are necessary nor are the
advantages of implementing them evident. how would they change either
the expressiveness or the correctness of a document?
1. any element-relative attribute-name qualification, for example for the
purpose of xlink or xsl specification could be accomplished with an additional
clause which constrained the element type name.
2. since the element type name needs in itself to be unique there is no
advantage to additional qualification for the attribute names for the purpose
of attribute declaration.
is there some other reason?
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:33:46 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: prefix scope with respect to entities
Message-ID: <35D09DBB.368408AE@mecomnet.de>
III. please include examples which describe processing in the presence of entities
i have understood the bindings which apply to entities to be those present in
the dynamic context which is in effect a the time the parser "inserts" the
entity value into the parse stream.
given the present content of the wd, i believe that is the only possible
interpretation since no binding mechanism is provided which includes the dtd
within its scope.
as i suspect, however, that such a mechanism is necessary, one must clarify
whether the dynamic scoping rules apply there as well, whether the dynamic
context is that of the definition or that of the reference, or whether,
perhaps lexical scoping rules would apply.
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 21:33:50 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: the extent of the prefix binding
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811122900.00c1ad50@207.34.179.21>
At 09:27 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>I. please specify the extent of the prefix binding as well as the scope
The scope of the binding is the element to which the declaration is
attached. I have just read your posting 3 times and don't understand
what you mean by "extent". -Tim
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 21:39:42 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: external dtd subsets (and external entities
in general)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811123558.00c1e100@207.34.179.21>
At 09:28 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>II. please establish a method to bind a prefix which covers the internal and
>external dtd subsets.
This was discussed by the WG and eventually voted down; the advantages
of the attribute approach, combined with the desire to avoid having
multiple ways to do the same thing, led to the PI approach being
amputated.
>without such a mechanism, the dtd's denotation is undefined.
I don't understand what you mean by "denotation". In general, the
usefulness of your postings would be improved by more attention
to the use of terminology, and where you need to use a new term
(e.g. "extent" in your previous posting and "denotation" here) you
should provide a definition for it.
>if, on the other hand, such a mechanism is provided, then validation is
>possible on the basis of namespace-aware 1.0 conformant dtd's.
Only trivially so. As I have pointed out, the hard part is not matching
up the names, it's making compound DTDs. I have also pointed out how
a mechanical instance/DTD rewrite could address some of the issues
of namespace-aware validation. I have not suggested a solutoin for
how to solve the *hard* problem, namely how to go about making a
compound DTD, and would like to hear input on that. -Tim
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 21:40:32 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its containing element.
Message-ID: <35D09F57.F6711DC9@mecomnet.de>
VI resolve the element name in the scope of its containing element.
until an element name is resolved, it is not possible to determine which (or
even whether a) element declaration applies unless the prefixes are awarded
global status. which method namespaces are intended to avoid.
the containing element (or the document entity) could (assuming the encoding
is supported) just as well provide the binding. this would avoid the ambiguity.
what is the argument for having an element qualify its own identifier?
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 22:15:09 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
At 09:45 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>VI resolve the element name in the scope of its containing element.
>
>until an element name is resolved, it is not possible to determine which (or
>even whether a) element declaration applies unless the prefixes are awarded
>global status. which method namespaces are intended to avoid.
What do you mean by "resolve"? What do you mean by "a) element declaration
applies"? The attribute-based declarations apply to the element on which
they're attached and to others within that scope unless overridden. If
the draft doesn't make that clear it's a bug. Please suggest wording
which would make it more clear.
>the containing element (or the document entity) could (assuming the encoding
>is supported) just as well provide the binding. this would avoid the ambiguity.
What do you mean by "encoding"? What do you mean, in this context, by
"binding"? What ambiguity are you talking about?
>what is the argument for having an element qualify its own identifier?
What do you mean by "qualify"? What do you mean by "identifier"? I
genuinely don't understand your terminology. In particular, I completely
fail to understand the sentence above.
Now I remember why I didn't address the issues you raised on teh first
go-around: I couldn't understand them.
At this point, it is obvious that we are wasting each others' time. If
you have concerns with the current draft, you are going to have to
express them in terms comprehensible to those who authored the spec.
Hint: examples are good. -Tim
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 22:21:49 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: external dtd subsets (and external entities
in general)
References: <3.0.32.19980811123558.00c1e100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0A9B0.CA92E740@mecomnet.de>
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> At 09:28 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
> >II. please establish a method to bind a prefix which covers the internal and
> >external dtd subsets.
>
> This was discussed by the WG and eventually voted down; the advantages
> of the attribute approach, combined with the desire to avoid having
> multiple ways to do the same thing, led to the PI approach being
> amputated.
>
> >without such a mechanism, the dtd's denotation is undefined.
>
> I don't understand what you mean by "denotation". In general, the
> usefulness of your postings would be improved by more attention
> to the use of terminology, and where you need to use a new term
> (e.g. "extent" in your previous posting and "denotation" here) you
> should provide a definition for it.
re: scope and extent.
The terms are relevant since, as (I believe) Mr Durand has already noted, the
prefixes can be understood as variable bindings. In fact, it is possible to
implement them as dynamic variable bindings within the decoding process.
I work with Steele's definitions. (from his reference on common lisp)
He devotes chapter 3 to them. I believe it is online, but know, unfortunately
only of a location for the document in its entirety.
(http://www.cast.uni-linz.ac.at/st/vision/software/lisp.html) The concepts are
not his alone, but his is the reference which I have on my desk.
The following definitions are excerpted from the Common Lisp hyperspec
courtesy of Harlequin: (http://www.harlequin.com/education/books/HyperSpec)
extent n. the interval of time during which a reference to an object, a
binding, an exit point, a tag, a handler, a restart, or an
environment is defined.
scope n. the structural or textual region of code in which references to an
object, a binding, an exit point, a tag, or an environment (usually
by name) can occur.
They are not 100% adequate, as it is not clear how they apply to attribute
declarations, for which the "spatial or textual region" is unclear.
re: denotation.
In the process of implementing an XML processor, I have (defacto) produced an
operational semantics for XML. Whereby I am not alone, just explaining. One
"half" of the semantics is the XML encoding syntax. The other "half" is a
particular storage model (DOM-like) and a collection of operations on this
store. The last part is a specification for which operations on the store are
entailed by a given encoding. I have been using "denotation" to mean just
that: the effect of a document on the store. In the case of the dtd, it would
be the entity/element/notation/... declarations which it produces.
>
> >if, on the other hand, such a mechanism is provided, then validation is
> >possible on the basis of namespace-aware 1.0 conformant dtd's.
>
> Only trivially so. As I have pointed out, the hard part is not matching
> up the names, it's making compound DTDs. I have also pointed out how
> a mechanical instance/DTD rewrite could address some of the issues
> of namespace-aware validation. I have not suggested a solutoin for
> how to solve the *hard* problem, namely how to go about making a
> compound DTD, and would like to hear input on that. -Tim
In my case, the storage model restricts all stored names to be universal
names. That is, all character sequences, which appear at a point in the
encoded stream which the syntax specifies as a name, are required to denote a
universal name in the store. If this requirement is met, then it is possible
to automate the rewrite process which you described in your earlier post.
(Please look back through the recent posts; you will note a response from me
on this topic). If, on the other hand, said sequences do not denote an
universal name, then the result of the decoding is undefined, since given that
the names have no denotations (ie. they identify no name in the store), loosly
speaking, the DTD also has none.
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 22:24:56 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: precedence rules for attribute specification
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811132331.00c677c0@207.34.179.21>
At 09:33 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>IV. please specify the precedence rules for attribute "specification".
>
>there are three states in the following matrix
I can't understand the rows & columns of the matrix. Could you
provide some examples? In particular I can't understand
what you mean by "default presence in attribute declaration"
and "attribute presence in element".
Surely you're not talking about default attribute values in
At 09:34 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>it is neither clear why the namespace partitions are necessary nor are the
>advantages of implementing them evident. how would they change either
>the expressiveness or the correctness of a document?
Sections 6.1 tries to explain this necessity at some length. However,
you are not alone in your view that this is superfluous; David Megginson
has no problem with elements & attributes having "the same name", thinks
the applications should sort it out. A WG majority eventually decided
that interoperability was improved by sorting the classes of names
into partitions.
>1. any element-relative attribute-name qualification, for example for the
>purpose of xlink or xsl specification could be accomplished with an additional
>clause which constrained the element type name.
True, but enough of us liked the idea of a standalone name for
unqualified attributes that we wrote it into the spec.
>2. since the element type name needs in itself to be unique there is no
>advantage to additional qualification for the attribute names for the purpose
>of attribute declaration.
There is if you want to have a way to write down an identifier
for such an attribute. The key question is "what information do you
need to have to find the right markup?" The answer is "the attribute
name and the element name and (if any) namespace". The real reason
we got there was in asking the question, WRT the following:
what namespace is the HREF attribute in? The natural language answer
is "in the namespace of HTML's A element". All the stuff in section 6
is an attempt to formalize that. -Tim
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 22:38:17 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: The *hard* problem (was: external dtd subsets ...)
References: <3.0.32.19980811123558.00c1e100@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0AB9A.59F67FCC@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray scripsit:
> I have not suggested a solution for
> how to solve the *hard* problem, namely how to go about making a
> compound DTD, and would like to hear input on that. -Tim
As far as I can see, such a thing is not possible even in principle,
except through the promiscuous use of ANY content models. Given
that you want to combine two separate DTDs, {A} and {B}, with or without
prefixes, initially only {A} elements will be permissible content
for other {A} elements, and likewise for {B} elements. So whatever
the root element of a document may be will dictate what elements
are to be used within it.
In order to make this otherwise, someone must decide exactly which
elements from {A} can have {B} content and vice versa. That is
inherently beyond the ability of an algorithmic process unless it
has detailed semantic information on the elements, *far* beyond
what any DTD provides.
IBTWSH uses a trick, a parameter entity that a containing DTD may
define in order to specify elements from the containing DTD that
can appear within IBTWSH elements. But average DTDs don't have
such a mechanism, and it may not even be possible. (Nonetheless,
this trick suggests how DCD/XML-Data elements with "open" content
might be translated back into DTD element declarations.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Tue Aug 11 22:41:17 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
Message-ID:
Tim Bray:
>Not now! Everyone agrees that we need datatypes. I expect some cheerful
>& constructive bloodletting in the SIG & WG as to which set of datatypes
>we need. Anybody who invests effort in that set at this time is spinning
>wheels.
Peter Murray-Rust:
>It's not a problem :-). The main effort is in getting the validation,
>presentation, etc done. To add new datatypes or syntax is relatively
>straightforward. And I'm not doing the whole lot, either - just the
>commonest ones. And I wouldn't go near the COBOL stuff.
Dan Brickley:
>So separating out the list of types from the mechanics
>seems particularly well motivated given that there are possibly three related
>W3C activities which could have their own way of representating the
>chosen types.
One of my biggest complaints about XML-Data (and a lot of why we started out
XSchema) was that it did too much too fast in one giant spec. I'd be _much_
happier to see the W3C hash out data types (and possibly their relationship to
assorted Unicode representations) in a _separate_ document.
Data types are critically important, and I'd like to see them given the full
attention they deserve rather than as part of something else.
This would also improve their reusability, making it much easier to refer to
the short and useful XML-Types spec, for instance, rather than Section 4 of
the DCD spec, which only XML developers and possibly XML document authors are
likely to read.
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 22:43:12 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: external dtd subsets (and external entities
in general)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811133954.00c65600@207.34.179.21>
At 10:30 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
>extent n. the interval of time during which a reference to an object, a
>binding, an exit point, a tag, a handler, a restart, or an
>environment is defined.
>
>scope n. the structural or textual region of code in which references to an
>object, a binding, an exit point, a tag, or an environment (usually
>by name) can occur.
>
>They are not 100% adequate, as it is not clear how they apply to attribute
>declarations, for which the "spatial or textual region" is unclear.
The structural or textual (you say "spatial", why?) region *is* clear;
it's the scope of the element. Which leaves me with the word I didn't
understand before; what do you mean by the "extent" of namespace/prefix
binding? Are you arguing that we should write temporal dependency
into the spec, i.e. say that means that
"foo" is bound to "http://bar" and that that binding lasts until the
end of the universe? Or until 31.82 seconds have passed? Obviously
I'm grasping at straws. -Tim
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 23:00:35 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
References: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> >until an element name is resolved, it is not possible to determine which (or
> >even whether a) element declaration applies unless the prefixes are awarded
> >global status. which method namespaces are intended to avoid.
>
> What do you mean by "resolve"? What do you mean by "a) element declaration
> applies"? The attribute-based declarations apply to the element on which
> they're attached and to others within that scope unless overridden. If
> the draft doesn't make that clear it's a bug. Please suggest wording
> which would make it more clear.
Here's my take on it. Suppose you have the fragment:
This is mixedcontent
where "foo" is not a previously declared prefix. One must then consult
the DTD to see whether the element declaration for "foo:a" contains
a default (or fixed) value for the "xmlns:foo" attribute. If not,
a namespace constraint has been violated.
Without prefix mapping in
the DTD, there is a possibility that the wrong "foo:a" will be fetched.
Or more accurately, there can be only one set of "foo:a" ATTLIST declarations,
and they had better be correct. This is the only way to determine
the URI corresponding to both the "a" and "b" elements.
In short: DTDs don't just serve validation, they serve attribute
normalization as well, and only after attributes are normalized
can the full set of namespace declarations be determined.
> >the containing element (or the document entity) could (assuming the encoding
> >is supported) just as well provide the binding. this would avoid the ambiguity.
>
> What do you mean by "encoding"? What do you mean, in this context, by
> "binding"? What ambiguity are you talking about?
Paraphrase: "The declaration of a namespace could be placed in the
parent element, such that the prefix-to-URI mapping affects only
its children, and not itself."
> >what is the argument for having an element qualify its own identifier?
>
> What do you mean by "qualify"? What do you mean by "identifier"?
Paraphrase: "What (rhetorical) argument is used to
defend the position that the attributes of an element should provide
the URI for its own GI?"
=====
Note on my own account: The draft implies that non-validating parsers
may differ from each other, and from validating parsers, on which
namespaces the elements and attributes in an instance may belong to, and
whether they belong to any at all, depending on whether the parser reads
the DTD in full, partially, or not at all. Non-validating parsers
cannot assume that because they do not know the definition of a
prefix, that it is an error to use it.
All these considerations fall to the ground if namespace attributes
*cannot* be defaulted from the DTD (unlike other XML attributes).
The draft is silent on the point.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From Mike_Spreitzer.PARC at xerox.com Tue Aug 11 23:13:47 1998
From: Mike_Spreitzer.PARC at xerox.com (Mike_Spreitzer.PARC@xerox.com)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:53 2004
Subject: Check out the DCD submission
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <98Aug11.141320pdt."53115(4)"@alpha.xerox.com>
> Yes. FWIW the HTTP-NG group has a description of their proposed type
> system in their Architectural Model working draft at:
We also have a somewhat independent line of inquiry into a type system that
will support evolution better; this should yield a type system that can better
take advantage of the extensibility inherent in XML. We haven't yet gotten far
enough to make a public release of this work (W3C members can find pointers to
very preliminary, rough, incomplete, inconsistent, nearly incoherent drafts on
the HTTP-NG Protocol Design Group home page). Once we've got the ideas worked
out, we plan to integrate them into the Architectural Model.
Mike
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 23:15:49 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: external dtd subsets (and external entities
in general)
References: <3.0.32.19980811133954.00c65600@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0B400.E9453107@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray wrote:
> The structural or textual (you say "spatial", why?) region *is* clear;
> it's the scope of the element. Which leaves me with the word I didn't
> understand before; what do you mean by the "extent" of namespace/prefix
> binding?
Paraphrase: "If a general entity reference appears within the scope
of a namespace declaration, does the declaration extend to elements
and attributes appearing within the replacement text of the entity?"
In particular, does it matter if the entity is internal or external,
or not? The draft is silent.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 23:23:28 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: Dynamic vs. indefinite extent
Message-ID: <35D0B634.42500BC@locke.ccil.org>
james anderson asks about the extent of prefix bindings.
XML does not actually define the "extent" of anything. An
XML processor must provide at least dynamic extent
(I think: it is possible that lexical extent is meant), but is
free to provide indefinite extent if that's useful to its
clients. OTOH, the clients could provide the indefinite extent
themselves. Nothing in XML or XML-namespace constrains an XML
processor either way.
(The point here, for those who don't follow this jargon, is that
"dynamic extent" objects don't last after the end of their scope,
like local variables in C, whereas "indefinite extent" objects
last until nobody wants them any more, like heap allocations in C.)
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 11 23:29:01 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: Namespace Processing Hints and Rant on Scoping/Defaulting
In-Reply-To: <35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org>
References: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
<35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>
John Cowan writes:
> Here's my take on it. Suppose you have the fragment:
>
> This is mixedcontent
>
> where "foo" is not a previously declared prefix. One must then consult
> the DTD to see whether the element declaration for "foo:a" contains
> a default (or fixed) value for the "xmlns:foo" attribute. If not,
> a namespace constraint has been violated.
No, the processing isn't that tricky if you think of these as layered
protocols:
Layer #1: The author writes the following:
This is mixed content
Layer #2: XML parser checks for well-formedness/validity and supplies
default values:
This is mixed content
Layer #3: The namespace processor interprets any special attributes:
This is mixed content
Layer #4: The application does something interesting with the result.
That said, I still really HATE the new declaration namespace syntax
and the scoping/defaulting, but for reasons other than the problem of
DTD validation: the whole thing reminds me too much of my first early
experiences with BASIC, assembly language, etc., when people were
writing giant, monolithic programs to avoid the supposed overhead of
function calls. Today, some people want to build giant monolithic XML
documents to avoid the supposed overhead of multiple HTTP fetches.
I know that of which I speak, since embarrasingly recently I wrote the
original AElfred parser in a single Java class with similar excuses.
Now, every morning, I thank the higher deities that someone else has
to maintain the @#$%@#@ thing (at least I commented the code well).
SAX has lots of classes, and it's actually fun to maintain.
Don't write an entire C program in main(); don't write an entire Java
program in a single class; don't put all of your data into a single
SQL table; don't force all of your information into a single XML
document. If people followed these guidelines, then local scoping and
defaulting of namespaces would be seen for the silly non-issues that
they are, and XML with namespaces would still be simpler than SGML.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 11 23:38:05 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980811143704.00c50870@207.34.179.21>
At 05:00 PM 8/11/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
[interpreting james anderson]
>Here's my take on it. Suppose you have the fragment:
>
> This is mixedcontent
>
>where "foo" is not a previously declared prefix. One must then consult
>the DTD to see whether the element declaration for "foo:a" contains
>a default (or fixed) value for the "xmlns:foo" attribute. If not,
>a namespace constraint has been violated.
You go on to raise the issue in greater detail, but it is clearly
the case that the rules have to be spelt out. For example, it's
obvious to me that for a non-validating parser, if he hits
and hasn't seen an xmlns:foo= in his encestry, the situation is
broken. Should the spec mandate that in this case, a conforming
program has to go and fetch any and all external parts of the
DTD to make sure there isn't a default declaration? Good question.
I think the answer has to be "no", thus putting the onus on the author
either to (a) use a validating processor or
(b) have standalone="true".
>In short: DTDs don't just serve validation, they serve attribute
>normalization as well, and only after attributes are normalized
>can the full set of namespace declarations be determined.
Just to pick nits, attribute *normalization* refers to sorting
out white space in attribute *values*, so I don't think that
interacts with namespaces.
>Paraphrase: "The declaration of a namespace could be placed in the
>parent element, such that the prefix-to-URI mapping affects only
>its children, and not itself."
Gosh, it's nice to have you here to interpret. If we were going to
do that, then you couldn't have namespaces on the root element; so
you'd need two *separate* things, one for content-only and one
for self+content. Maybe the convenience of the content-only
binding would make up for the pain of having to handle two different
kinds of declarations; so far the WG hasn't bought that.
>All these considerations fall to the ground if namespace attributes
>*cannot* be defaulted from the DTD (unlike other XML attributes).
>The draft is silent on the point.
Obviously they can, because an XML processor is required to provide
defaults, but not to tell the app that they are defaults. So there's
no difference in principle between a provided and a defaulted
attribute. -Tim
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 23:45:18 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
References: <3.0.32.19980811143704.00c50870@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0BB32.20A3C779@locke.ccil.org>
Tim Bray scripsit:
> You go on to raise the issue in greater detail, but it is clearly
> the case that the rules have to be spelt out. For example, it's
> obvious to me that for a non-validating parser, if he hits
> and hasn't seen an xmlns:foo= in his encestry, the situation is
> broken. Should the spec mandate that in this case, a conforming
> program has to go and fetch any and all external parts of the
> DTD to make sure there isn't a default declaration? Good question.
> I think the answer has to be "no", thus putting the onus on the author
> either to (a) use a validating processor
Provided the document can be made valid per other concerns.
> or
> (b) have standalone="true".
Well, that will work, I suppose.
> Just to pick nits, attribute *normalization* refers to sorting
> out white space in attribute *values*, so I don't think that
> interacts with namespaces.
Yes, sorry; I meant attribute *defaulting*.
> Gosh, it's nice to have you here to interpret. If we were going to
> do that, then you couldn't have namespaces on the root element;
Not using the draft's machinery, anyhow. A PI could put a namespace
on the root element.
> so
> you'd need two *separate* things, one for content-only and one
> for self+content. Maybe the convenience of the content-only
> binding would make up for the pain of having to handle two different
> kinds of declarations; so far the WG hasn't bought that.
>
> >All these considerations fall to the ground if namespace attributes
> >*cannot* be defaulted from the DTD (unlike other XML attributes).
> >The draft is silent on the point.
>
> Obviously they can, because an XML processor is required to provide
> defaults, but not to tell the app that they are defaults. So there's
> no difference in principle between a provided and a defaulted
> attribute. -Tim
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 23:48:22 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: precedence rules for attribute specification
References: <3.0.32.19980811132331.00c677c0@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0BD7D.D5D4E9@mecomnet.de>
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> At 09:33 PM 8/11/98 +0200, james anderson wrote:
> >IV. please specify the precedence rules for attribute "specification".
> >
> >there are three states in the following matrix
>
> I can't understand the rows & columns of the matrix. Could you
Gee, and I thought that, of all the questions, this one was the clearest...
There are two places the attribute can be "attached": in the element itself
and in some element in its context. The respective attachment can be by
appearance in the start tag or by declaration of a default in attlist. i had
understood the draft to allow both forms of attachment. (the recent examples
to xml-dev - including from mr. clark, left me in the belief that i was
correct) thus the 16 positions in the table.
default = attlist declaration
binding = presence in the start tag.
the problem state are
(cb/-- X --/ed) a context binding and element default
(--/-- X cd/ed) nothing present in the elements in the document entity, just
in the
declarations
(cb/-- X cd/ed) a combination of the above
> provide some examples? In particular I can't understand
> what you mean by "default presence in attribute declaration"
> and "attribute presence in element".
>
Just now i have to catch a train (i'm nine hours ahead of you folks).
if this is all still unclear in the morning i'll set myself to some examples.
> Surely you're not talking about default attribute values in
> are there if it's not explicitly specified, they're not there if
> it is explicitly specified, there can be no ambiguity. -Tim
Please look at the table again, given my explanation above.
What about the case where it appears as a default in the containing element
and as a default in the contained element?
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Aug 11 23:54:23 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
References: <3.0.32.19980811143704.00c50870@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <35D0BF62.EBCDAD00@mecomnet.de>
Tim Bray wrote:
>
> At 05:00 PM 8/11/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>
> [interpreting james anderson]
>
> >Here's my take on it. Suppose you have the fragment:
> >
> > This is mixedcontent
> >
> >where "foo" is not a previously declared prefix. One must then consult
Even if a declaration has appeared, what is the processor to do were (given
the present definitions for declaration scope) the "intended" element was
associated with an attribute declaration which included a default value for
the respective attribute?
> >the DTD to see whether the element declaration for "foo:a" contains
> >a default (or fixed) value for the "xmlns:foo" attribute. If not,
> >a namespace constraint has been violated.
>
> You go on to raise the issue in greater detail, but it is clearly
> the case that the rules have to be spelt out. For example, it's
> obvious to me that for a non-validating parser, if he hits
> and hasn't seen an xmlns:foo= in his encestry, the situation is
> broken. Should the spec mandate that in this case, a conforming
> program has to go and fetch any and all external parts of the
> DTD to make sure there isn't a default declaration? Good question.
> I think the answer has to be "no", thus putting the onus on the author
> either to (a) use a validating processor or
> (b) have standalone="true".
How is the validating processor to do this unless either
a, it elevates the prefixes to global status,
or
b, it has a means is to determine the corresponding universal names for
qualified names in the DTD?
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 11 23:57:51 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: Namespace Processing Hints and Rant on Scoping/Defaulting
References: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
<35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org> <199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D0BE10.3310CC9B@locke.ccil.org>
David Megginson wrote:
> No, the processing isn't that tricky if you think of these as layered
> protocols:
The trouble arises in this case:
This thing belongs to URI A
...
This thing belongs to URI B
where the same prefix is meant to map to more than one URI in
the course of the document. The DTD can't supply "xmlns:foo"
default attribute values for both foo:a elements, because to
a DTD they are the same element type.
> That said, I still really HATE the new declaration namespace syntax
> and the scoping/defaulting, but for reasons other than the problem of
> DTD validation: the whole thing reminds me too much of my first early
> experiences with BASIC, assembly language, etc., when people were
> writing giant, monolithic programs to avoid the supposed overhead of
> function calls. Today, some people want to build giant monolithic XML
> documents to avoid the supposed overhead of multiple HTTP fetches.
I can't agree with you. The utility of namespaces is not so much
to create merged documents, but to create documents representing
merged designs: in particular, namespaces allow documents to
"mix in" existing element semantics as and where needed.
The alternative is to invent your own elements and "just know"
(namely, encode in programs) what their semantics are.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov Wed Aug 12 00:00:59 1998
From: fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov (Frank Blau)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: HL7 vs X12 w/XML
Message-ID: <35D0BD06.8235F918@nina.snohomish.wa.gov>
Does anyone have any comparisons between HL7 and X12 w/XML for
transmission of Healthcare Data?
Frank
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Wed Aug 12 00:05:10 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: wd-xml-names: resolve the element name in the scope of its
containing element.
References: <3.0.32.19980811143704.00c50870@207.34.179.21> <35D0BB32.20A3C779@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <35D0C1B3.A612562D@mecomnet.de>
John Cowan wrote:
>
> Tim Bray scripsit:
>
>
> > Gosh, it's nice to have you here to interpret. If we were going to
> > do that, then you couldn't have namespaces on the root element;
>
> Not using the draft's machinery, anyhow. A PI could put a namespace
> on the root element.
>
Agreed.
The declaration is for "content only". A second declaration form for "self +
content" is not necessary. Either the PI form or the method of putting pseudo
attributes on "physical-entity-specific" declarations is sufficient. For the
former method, the PI should be permitted in external entities in addition to
within the prologue, in order to afford the necessary control over declarations.
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Aug 12 00:20:14 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: Dynamic vs. indefinite extent
References: <35D0B634.42500BC@locke.ccil.org> <35D0C33C.C216E5A9@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <35D0C376.1B4C6D7B@locke.ccil.org>
james anderson wrote:
> i (of all people to ask for it) would need a definition for lexical extent.
Sorry, that was a brain fart. There is, of course, no such
thing as lexical extent.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 12 01:31:41 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:54 2004
Subject: Namespace Processing Hints and Rant on Scoping/Defaulting
In-Reply-To: <35D0BE10.3310CC9B@locke.ccil.org>
References: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
<35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org>
<199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>
<35D0BE10.3310CC9B@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808112330.TAA01999@unready.megginson.com>
John Cowan writes:
> The trouble arises in this case:
>
> This thing belongs to URI A
> ...
> This thing belongs to URI B
>
> where the same prefix is meant to map to more than one URI in
> the course of the document. The DTD can't supply "xmlns:foo"
> default attribute values for both foo:a elements, because to
> a DTD they are the same element type.
[I will continue in my role as a _very_ reluctant defender of the new
WD.]
This is a problem with defaulting, not with validation -- although
DTDs can do both, the two are distinct.
Exactly the same problem occurs with architectural forms, where you
might want to derive an element of the same type from different
architectural forms at different points in a document. From the
perspective of DTD design, you have three major choices:
1. Provide a non-#FIXED default value, allowing the user to specify a
different value when necessary.
2. Make the attribute #REQUIRED, forcing the user to specify a value
every time.
3. Make the attribute #IMPLIED, allowing the user to specify a value
only when necessary.
With AF's, you can also use an enumerated value to limit the
possibilities, but few URNs would fit the constraints of an XML name.
> > That said, I still really HATE the new declaration namespace syntax
> > and the scoping/defaulting, but for reasons other than the problem of
> > DTD validation: the whole thing reminds me too much of my first early
> > experiences with BASIC, assembly language, etc., when people were
> > writing giant, monolithic programs to avoid the supposed overhead of
> > function calls. Today, some people want to build giant monolithic XML
> > documents to avoid the supposed overhead of multiple HTTP fetches.
>
> I can't agree with you. The utility of namespaces is not so much
> to create merged documents, but to create documents representing
> merged designs: in particular, namespaces allow documents to
> "mix in" existing element semantics as and where needed.
> The alternative is to invent your own elements and "just know"
> (namely, encode in programs) what their semantics are.
We're talking about different things: I *like* the logical model
behind namespaces (which is what you're describing), but that has
nothing to do with the particulars of declaration syntax or local
scoping and defaulting.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Wed Aug 12 04:52:06 1998
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Namespace Processing Hints and Rant on Scoping/Defaulting
In-Reply-To: <199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <199808120255.AA01960@murata.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>
David Megginson wrote:
> That said, I still really HATE the new declaration namespace syntax
> and the scoping/defaulting, but for reasons other than the problem of
> DTD validation: the whole thing reminds me too much of my first early
> experiences with BASIC, assembly language, etc., when people were
> writing giant, monolithic programs to avoid the supposed overhead of
> function calls. Today, some people want to build giant monolithic XML
> documents to avoid the supposed overhead of multiple HTTP fetches.
I agree on this feeling. I also think that the new WD makes an
XML document monolithic. Since the namespace of an element can be
declarared by any of its superiors, we can no longer "divide and
conquer" XML documents. (Fragment validation is no longer possible.)
Makoto
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Aug 12 05:00:18 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XML validation
References: <3.0.1.16.19980810214125.0c978e1a@pop3.demon.co.uk>
<35CF7089.9A2A56A6@finetuning.com> <3.0.1.16.19980811073526.0bef9886@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D104A9.6458@hiwaay.net>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
> I am sure that we shall not create a schism in the religious sense of the
> world. It's possible that some tools may be WF-centric and others
> DTD-centric. Hopefully many will do both. We could make a start (as we have
> already discussed) about giving precise instructions to parsers.
As is oft noted, DTDs serve different purposes in the production
process.
Thinking beyond single applications, where a DTD exists, the file can
be proved valid. This is a legal concept as much as a computer science
technology. Different tools for different purposes indeed.
We create standards to serve both human and computer processes.
Correct-by-construction techniques are well-understood. The trust they
provide in computer communications is established. Where content has
longer
lifecycles and the intent of the *author* is part of the information to
be
maintained, the abstract schema is a useful form of contracting, hence,
the
BNF in the specifications.
While there are efforts to replace the SGML schemata syntax, some effort
should be given to extending it. As requirements are developed for
the alternatives, I suggest that the working group for SGML make the
same effort for SGML DTDs as the requirements there have a different
emphasis.
Len Bullard
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Aug 12 05:25:30 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
David Megginson wrote:
> As far as I may be allowed to compare tropical and temperate tree
> fruit, the equivalent of a Java class is a complete XML document.
Class or an object of a class? Even that is not great. Colonized
namespaces can contain property values from different classes of objects
in a single document yes? To me as an SGMLer, a colonized document
*looks like* an SGML document with multiple doctype statements.
> The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
> documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
> classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
> and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
I call them aggregates but I think of that from a process point of view.
When I look at a colonized file, I think of weaving together different
document types into an aggregate type, loosely a collection.
A 3D model would help.
len
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Aug 12 06:37:24 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: IMPORTANT (Re: XSchema question)
References: <199808110030.RAA29421@boethius.eng.sun.com>
<35CFA6AD.253D204C@allette.com.au> <3.0.1.16.19980811071341.6c87fcae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D11B5F.3439@hiwaay.net>
> Jon Bosak wrote:
> >>
> >> > Ah, but Lou got his champagne: he sold EBT for a tidy sum and is now
> >> > happily retired...
Len Bullard wrote:
> >I am reminded of stories of insider trading in which some retiring
> >gentleman trumpeted overvalued stock just prior to cashing out.
Peter M-R wrote:
> I am sure it was not meant this way, but please be absolutely scrupulous
> not to post things that could be misinterpreted and cause offence or be
> actionable.. We are a public mailing list, so this is a public utterance.
Absolutely right. Some humor doesn't work without the smiley. Thanks
for minding my netiquette for me. If Lou shares his champagne, I'll
apologize
personally.
Thinking about compound document types. Interesting. If unvalidatible,
one of the most compelling benefits of markup-based technology goes
away.
It makes the case for XML weaker. I understand the concern expressed
by Dr. Goldfarb that message-oriented-markup could weaken the
capabilities of
presentation-oriented-markup.
ADA? Packages? Hmm...
len
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Wed Aug 12 10:27:48 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: [help]xml4j (linux)
Message-ID:
Hi !
Now jre seems to work ok. But when running this command:
>jre -cp xml4j.jar trlx -d personal.xml
I got this error:
>SIGSEGV 11* segmentation violation
>
>Full thread dump:
>Killed
I'm running xml4j 1.0.4 and jdk 1.1.3. I've tried
>jre -cp xml4j_1.0.4.jar trlx -d personal.xml
and still got the same error
Could someone help me again please ?
(And many thanks to those who answered me before !)
TIA !
Thuy-Linh
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Wed Aug 12 11:50:47 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: [help]xml4j (linux)
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID:
Hi !
I've solved my problem !!! :-))) Sorry to bother you !
Thanks !
Thuy-Linh.
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Thuy-Linh Nguyen wrote:
> Hi !
>
> Now jre seems to work ok. But when running this command:
> >jre -cp xml4j.jar trlx -d personal.xml
>
> I got this error:
>
> >SIGSEGV 11* segmentation violation
> >
> >Full thread dump:
> >Killed
>
> I'm running xml4j 1.0.4 and jdk 1.1.3. I've tried
> >jre -cp xml4j_1.0.4.jar trlx -d personal.xml
>
> and still got the same error
>
> Could someone help me again please ?
> (And many thanks to those who answered me before !)
>
> TIA !
> Thuy-Linh
>
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From David.Rosenborg at xsse.se Wed Aug 12 13:18:51 1998
From: David.Rosenborg at xsse.se (David Rosenborg)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
References: <3.0.1.16.19980811202739.6c2fbcae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D17985.5F8EA280@xsse.se>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
> One thing that we may have to bear in mind is whether we wish to preserve
> any of the prefixes for subsequent authoring/transformation. For example,
> if FOO is declared with a default namespace of http://foo.org do people
> mind if it gets output as something like NS3:FOO? (where the prefixes run
> from NS1 to NS10 or whatever). Personally - although I would like it - I
> think that's too advanced and that prefixes are expanded and meaningless in
> any transformation.
First I would like to say that I think using a seperate
namespace handler in SAX is an excellent solution.
About preserving prefixes:
That's true if the applications, processing the output of
the transformation, are also namespace aware. However, if
they are not namespace aware, like most existing validation SGML/XML
software, they may rely literally on the prefixes.
In my opinion, it would be nice to have the prefixes reported
by SAX, but that's only for convenience. I could do without it
but then I would have to write a namespace aware postprocessor
that maps the URIs back to the expected prefixes, and throw it
away when the subsequent applications also get namespace aware.
About namespace resolver:
Is it really necessary for the parser to deal with namespaces at
all (if we don't consider namespace aware validation for the moment)?
In a previous posting David Megginson outlined a layered approach
which clearly shows how simple this part of namespace processing
could be. In this model the parser may be namespace aware for
validation purposes but it does not have to for other reasons.
In my opinion, having a namespace resolver in SAX is an overkill.
I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful, just that it shouldn't be
part of the SAX interface. I think it would be sufficient if
the start namespace scope method was just
startNamespaceScope (String prefix, String URI)
and then the application/SAX Filter would have to maintain
a stack of namespaces just as a typical SAX application
keeps a stack of open elements if it is building a tree.
A namespace resolver could be part of the helper classes though.
Also I think the startNamespaceScope events should occur
before the corresponding startElement event since the element
is itself inside the scope it declares.
______________________________________________________________________
David.Rosenborg@xsse.se Stockholm Stock Exchange
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From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 12 14:06:05 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To: <35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
len bullard writes:
> David Megginson wrote:
>
> > As far as I may be allowed to compare tropical and temperate tree
> > fruit, the equivalent of a Java class is a complete XML document.
>
> Class or an object of a class?
Exactly -- here's where such analogies can fall flat on their
collective faces.
On can argue that the XML document type is equivalent to an abstract
Java interface, that the XML document is equivalent to a class
implementing that interface, and that the various transformations of
that XML document (formatted output, database tables, lawn-sprinkler
spinning, etc.) are equivalent to Java objects instantiating the
class.
On the other hand, as you point out, it is just as easy to argue that
the document type is the equivalent to the class, and that the
document is equivalent to an object instatiating the class.
Perhaps we're best letting each fruit stick to its own tree.
> ... Colonized namespaces can contain property values from different
> classes of objects in a single document yes? To me as an SGMLer, a
> colonized document *looks like* an SGML document with multiple
> doctype statements.
Or a class implementing multiple interfaces (sorry, I couldn't
resist).
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Wed Aug 12 14:12:04 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Namespace Processing Hints and Rant on Scoping/Defaulting
References: <3.0.32.19980811131414.00c5b530@207.34.179.21>
<35D0B0D4.364AAB90@locke.ccil.org>
<199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>
<35D0BE10.3310CC9B@locke.ccil.org> <199808112330.TAA01999@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D1886F.B3C4BE47@mecomnet.de>
David Megginson wrote:
>
> John Cowan writes:
>
> > The trouble arises in this case:
> >
> > This thing belongs to URI A
> > ...
> > This thing belongs to URI B
> >
> > where the same prefix is meant to map to more than one URI in
> > the course of the document. The DTD can't supply "xmlns:foo"
> > default attribute values for both foo:a elements, because to
> > a DTD they are the same element type.
>
> This is a problem with defaulting, not with validation -- although
> DTDs can do both, the two are distinct.
They were distinct.
Both now depend on unambiguous names. With the present namespace WD,
unambiguous names depend, in turn, in some cases, on attribute defaults. Which
is circular, since that depends on an unambiguous name for the respective
element, and makes validation depend on defaulting.
I would have prefered to keep the two orthogonal, but I'm just trying to
implement it, not design it...
>
> Exactly the same problem occurs with architectural forms, where you
> might want to derive an element of the same type from different
It's not _quite_ the same, since those _names_ are presumed unambiguous.
> architectural forms at different points in a document. From the
> perspective of DTD design, you have three major choices:
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From eliot at isogen.com Wed Aug 12 15:32:00 1998
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To: <199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
References:
<5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980812081714.007ea170@postoffice.swbell.net>
At 01:45 PM 8/11/98 -0400, David Megginson wrote:
>
>The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
Bounded object set?
Cheers,
E.
--
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer
ISOGEN International Corp.
2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004
www.isogen.com
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From donpark at quake.net Wed Aug 12 16:10:52 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
Message-ID: <004401bdc5f9$b5b098a0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
>> The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>> documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>> classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>> and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
There is a spec named "XML-Package" which addressed the problem of packaging
multiple XML documents and related resources into a single XML document.
While the spec itself is on-hold at the moment, "package" or "pack" sounds
like a good name.
BTW, Docuverse is my company name so don't wear it out .
Don Park
CTO/Docuverse
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Aug 12 16:13:04 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
References: <3.0.1.16.19980811202739.6c2fbcae@pop3.demon.co.uk> <35D17985.5F8EA280@xsse.se>
Message-ID: <35D1A282.E3B2ABE@locke.ccil.org>
David Rosenborg wrote:
> Is it really necessary for the parser to deal with namespaces at
> all (if we don't consider namespace aware validation for the moment)?
Depends what you think "the parser" is. My design was for something
that a parser could implement if it wanted to, but could also be
layered over a ns-blind parser.
> Also I think the startNamespaceScope events should occur
> before the corresponding startElement event since the element
> is itself inside the scope it declares.
A very good point, which I gladly adopt.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From peterj at wrox.com Wed Aug 12 16:13:12 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
Message-ID:
The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
Sorry to be rather facetious, but how about
A Docsplat!
Peter Jones
WebDev Technical Editor
Wrox Press
mailto:peterj@wrox.com
***************
Wrox Press UK Ltd.
http://www.wrox.co.uk
Tel 44 121 706 6826
Fax 44 121 706 2967
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From assunta.ciervo at primeur.com Wed Aug 12 16:22:02 1998
From: assunta.ciervo at primeur.com (assunta ciervo)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:55 2004
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <35D1A52D.43856F13@primeur.com>
unsubscribe
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Aug 12 16:27:02 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: James Anderson's table
Message-ID: <35D1A613.A9CD0EFD@locke.ccil.org>
I finally figured out what the terminology in the table means:
> (ed = element default, cd = context default,
> eb = element binding, cb = context binding)
"Element default" means "an ns attribute of the current element,
defaulted from the DTD";
"Context default" means "an ns attribute of an ancestral element,
defaulted from the DTD";
"Element binding" means "an ns attribute of the current element,
explicitly present in the instance";
"Context binding" means "an ns attribute of an ancestral element,
explicitly present in the instance".
What makes this table hard to understand is that while logically
it is 2 x 2 x 2 x 2, it is presented as 4 x 4, but the things
grouped together don't really belong together. The axes of the
4 x 4 table are not "ancestral element" vs. "current element", but
"explicitly present in the attribute" (rows) vs. "defaulted
from the DTD" (columns).
But anyway, here are the correct values, based on the principle
that a value defaulted from the DTD is equivalent in every way
to one explicitly present in the instance (except of course that
if both are available, the explicit one takes precedence):
> default presence in attribute declaration
>
> attribute
> presence in
> element -- -- | -- ed | cd -- | cd ed
> ---------------------------------------
> | unbound | ed | cd | ed |
> -- -- | | | | |
> ----------------------------------------
> | | | | |
> -- eb | eb | eb | eb | eb |
> ----------------------------------------
> | | ed | cd | ed |
> cb -- | cb | | cb | |
> ----------------------------------------
> | | | | |
> cb eb | eb | eb | eb | eb |
> ----------------------------------------
The cell "cb" vs. "cd" can come out either way, depending on which
is the nearer ancestor.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 12 16:35:27 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
In-Reply-To: <35D17985.5F8EA280@xsse.se>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980811202739.6c2fbcae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980812153049.336f9768@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 12:16 12/08/98 +0100, David Rosenborg wrote:
[... very helpful analysis snipped...]
Thanks very much for the comments David - this is exactly the sort of
feedback we need to get the next phase going.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 12 16:41:30 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: DCD submission [from Dave Bergacker]
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980812154014.3787dc56@pop3.demon.co.uk>
[forwarded on behalf of Dave Bergacker]
>Return-Path:
>Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 09:30:49 -0500
>From: bergackd@dgabby.mfldclin.edu (Dave Bergacker)
>To: peter@ursus.demon.co.uk
>Subject: DCD submission
>
>Hi there, I am a subscriber to the XML-Dev list, digest form. I have a
few questions
>about the DCD submission that I would like to put forward to Mr. Bray, and
as they
>are legal questions about the publishers retention of intellectual
property rights,
>I think the discussion would be interesting to the XML-dev list in
general. Am I
>allowed to post to the list? If not, would you know of someone willing to
re-post
>for me?
[PMR: anyone can subscribe to the list]
>
>My questions are pretty basic:
>
>1) What is the status of the intellectual property of this submission
until such time
> as the W3C approves a version as a "Recommendation"? Both IBM and
Microsoft only address
> what happens after it is a "Recommendation" of the W3C.
>
>2) Is IBM claiming an interest in collecting royalties for works based on
this submission?
> The first sentence of their Declaration re: Intellectual property
rights states:
> "..will make licenses available... including royalty rates." I am not
a lawyer and have
> no idea what this sentence is supposed to convey.
>
>3) Is Microsoft reserving it's rights to collect royalties/assert patents
if any company other
> than a W3C member implements this specification? It certainly seems to
read that way.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>cc:
> bergacker, dave
>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From tbray at textuality.com Wed Aug 12 17:33:20 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: DCD submission [from Dave Bergacker]
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980812083155.00bddc90@207.34.179.21>
At 03:40 PM 8/12/98, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>>Hi there, I am a subscriber to the XML-Dev list, digest form. I have a
>few questions
>>about the DCD submission that I would like to put forward to Mr. Bray
I certainly don't speak for either IBM or Microsoft.
Should DCD get taken up by W3C on the "Recommendation" track (and
there's no guarantee of that), one of the requirements is that
the W3C copyright applies, which essentially means that anyone
can use it for anything. -Tim
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From dgd at cs.bu.edu Wed Aug 12 19:21:27 1998
From: dgd at cs.bu.edu (David G. Durand)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To: <199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
References:
<5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS> <35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID:
At 1:45 PM -0400 8/11/98, David Megginson wrote:
>David G. Durand writes:
>
> [writing about scoping in Java classes]
>
> > The equivalent to this policy for XML would be for the "minimization
> > declarations" to be local to the _entity_.
>
>Reasonable people may disagree: many of us believe (from SGML
>experience, especially) that entities are simply slightly-constrained
>storage units with no other special significance -- if Java had
>#include files, then those would be the equivalents of XML entities.
>As far as I may be allowed to compare tropical and temperate tree
>fruit, the equivalent of a Java class is a complete XML document.
I was writing about Java source files, the relevant scoping region for
package declarations. A Java file is a _compilation_ unit, not a class,
since it is possible (if not favored practice) to put several classes into
one source file. I agree that entities and include files are somewhat
similar, and that explains some of the problems with entities: potential
name clashes or namespace prefix capture by the entity referencing context.
Part of my point is in direct agreement with your point; all such analogies
are hazardous and should be treated like radiactive material -- potentially
useful, and potentially deadly.
People _do_ however, use entities as a mechanism for reuse, and they were
designed for reuse. I think that local scoping can enhance that kind of
reuse by allowing a declaration that only needs limited scope to be tightly
bound to that scope, and also by ensuring that the declaration does not
affect other portions of the document.
>The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
This is an old question. I find the HyTime term "BOS (Bounded Object Set)"
rather opaque. Docuverse is not really correct, since that term was coined
by Nelson to describe the total interlinkined machine readable literature
of the planet. Currently, the Web itself is a nascent docuverse.
Web was the historical term in the HT research community, but its use as
synonym for World Wide Web would cause lasting confusion if we adopted it
in its original sense.
I wasn't able to come up with a good name. I like "nest", or "tangle".
One of the problems is that the notion in question isn't necessarily all
documents linked directly or indirectly from some (set of) starting
point(s). It's a set of documents (including sets of independent links)
that should be processed together, or should at least be simultaneously
available.
I suspect the final term will follow the evolution of an actual authoring
practice.
The term "web site" already hasmuch of the meaning in question, as it does
not _necessarily_ map into a single server or URL, but rather to a set of
documents provided with a single purpose and (usually) having a
well-defined starting point. Personal web sites are often just a
sub-directory on a larger school or ISP server, while corporate web sites
may involve hundreds of servers on many continents.
-- David
-- David
_________________________________________
David Durand dgd@cs.bu.edu \ david@dynamicDiagrams.com
Boston University Computer Science \ Sr. Analyst
http://www.cs.bu.edu/students/grads/dgd/ \ Dynamic Diagrams
--------------------------------------------\ http://www.dynamicDiagrams.com/
MAPA: mapping for the WWW \__________________________
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From peterj at wrox.com Wed Aug 12 19:25:07 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
Message-ID:
>The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
>>documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
>>classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
>>and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
>
>how about
>
>Doc _ toffee!
>
>Peter Jones
>WebDev Technical Editor
>Wrox Press
>mailto:peterj@wrox.com
>***************
>Wrox Press UK Ltd.
>http://www.wrox.co.uk
>Tel 44 121 706 6826
>Fax 44 121 706 2967
>
>
>
>
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From peterj at wrox.com Wed Aug 12 19:49:19 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Doctype dec and Namespaces
Message-ID:
I've just been looking at the Namespaces WD of 2-Aug-98
and I saw the following:
doctypedecl ::= ''
I notice that a QName occurs in the definition. Does this mean that a
Namespace which is global for the (presumably valid) document is
declared between the and the doctype decl.?
Peter Jones
WebDev Technical Editor
Wrox Press
mailto:peterj@wrox.com
***************
Wrox Press UK Ltd.
http://www.wrox.co.uk
Tel 44 121 706 6826
Fax 44 121 706 2967
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From tyler at infinet.com Wed Aug 12 20:22:38 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net> <199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D1DD74.731A9095@infinet.com>
David Megginson wrote:
> len bullard writes:
> > David Megginson wrote:
> >
> > > As far as I may be allowed to compare tropical and temperate tree
> > > fruit, the equivalent of a Java class is a complete XML document.
> >
> > Class or an object of a class?
>
> Exactly -- here's where such analogies can fall flat on their
> collective faces.
>
> On can argue that the XML document type is equivalent to an abstract
> Java interface, that the XML document is equivalent to a class
> implementing that interface, and that the various transformations of
> that XML document (formatted output, database tables, lawn-sprinkler
> spinning, etc.) are equivalent to Java objects instantiating the
> class.
>
> On the other hand, as you point out, it is just as easy to argue that
> the document type is the equivalent to the class, and that the
> document is equivalent to an object instatiating the class.
Or you can argue that each class represents an Element. The enclosing Document
is merely a container for all of these elements. In the XML Framework we have
done, this is exactly how handlers are used for Elements by logically mapping XML
Elements to Java classes. The handler for every sub-element is dynamically
generated as needed. You could say this is a data-driven approach and works
quite well for most applications, but for some applications I can see its
limitations.
Tyler
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From donpark at quake.net Wed Aug 12 20:37:47 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: REQ: ISO 8601 Comments
Message-ID: <008501bdc61e$fcc09540$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Those of us working on the XLF (Extensible Log Format) are faced with the
issue of deciding on the timestamp format. I thought it would be prudent to
seek comments on the subject in general and specifically on use of the ISO
8601 standard from the XML-DEV members.
The choices we are considering are:
1. Single timestamp attribute using ISO 8601
2. Single timestamp attribute using custom format designed for searching,
sorting, and parsing efficiency.
3. Timestamp info broken up into multiple attributes (year, month, date,
hour, minute, second, milliseconds, nanoseconds.
4. Timestamp info broken up into two or three attributes (year/month/date,
hour/minute/second, etc.) with the possibility of using ISO 8601.
A related side issue is whether to require global time or allow local time
as well.
It is interesting to note that the recently released DCD spec uses ISO 8601
subset (whatever that means).
Don Park
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From maillist at chris.hubick.com Wed Aug 12 20:50:04 1998
From: maillist at chris.hubick.com (Chris Hubick)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: REQ: ISO 8601 Comments
In-Reply-To: <008501bdc61e$fcc09540$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID:
On Wed, 12 Aug 1998, Don Park wrote:
> Those of us working on the XLF (Extensible Log Format) are faced with the
> issue of deciding on the timestamp format. I thought it would be prudent to
> seek comments on the subject in general and specifically on use of the ISO
> 8601 standard from the XML-DEV members.
Has anyone tackled the problem of general time representation in
XML yet? I kind of wondered this before when I was whipping up a quick
XML application to create my timesheets for work. I am not at all
familiar with the time standards out there, but it would be handy if
someone wrote a DTD for time info that we could all reuse.
On the more general note...is there a repository for general
domain nonspecific DTD's for stuff like times, dates, directory listings,
etc? It would be nice if we could have one place for all this, and
software for parsing and representing information stored in these formats.
I mean, as soon as I find myself creating declarations for stuff like
datetime I know someone else must have done it already, and probably have
a Java class which can load itself using SAX events. What are the large
companies such as Microsoft using for this in stuff like Office 2000?
---
Chris Hubick
mailto:chris@hubick.com
http://www.hubick.com/
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 12 21:04:11 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: REQ: ISO 8601 Comments
In-Reply-To: <008501bdc61e$fcc09540$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980812200335.3d3f9bae@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 11:27 12/08/98 -0700, Don Park wrote:
>Those of us working on the XLF (Extensible Log Format) are faced with the
>issue of deciding on the timestamp format. I thought it would be prudent to
>seek comments on the subject in general and specifically on use of the ISO
>8601 standard from the XML-DEV members.
Thanks very much for raising this, Don. It's an issue I suspect a lot of us
are wrestling with. A communal solution would be extremely valuable.
In general I suspect that most people using XLF are also going to be
dealing with date/times in other contexts so XLF should be friendly to
those. I also think that you can't necessarily rely on everyone converting
to global time (e.g. people can transcribe the time from the log but may
make mistakes when converting.) I wrote a date class for JUMBO using Java
1.02 and now it's broken because Java 1.1. uses a different approach which
I still haven't figured out - it requires the use of Calendar, etc. [1].
(all the 1.02 methods are deprecated). Dates are trickier than they look
and I wouldn't suggest that people wrote perl scripts to convert them. I
would therefore always allow raw date-times as an option (in ISO 8601
format of course).
P.
[1] private help by e-mail gladly accepted :-)
>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 12 21:15:59 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: XML libraries (was ISO 8601 comments)
In-Reply-To:
References: <008501bdc61e$fcc09540$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980812201415.3ae743ea@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 11:44 12/08/98 +0000, Chris Hubick wrote:
[...]
> On the more general note...is there a repository for general
>domain nonspecific DTD's for stuff like times, dates, directory listings,
>etc? It would be nice if we could have one place for all this, and
>software for parsing and representing information stored in these formats.
>I mean, as soon as I find myself creating declarations for stuff like
>datetime I know someone else must have done it already, and probably have
>a Java class which can load itself using SAX events. What are the large
>companies such as Microsoft using for this in stuff like Office 2000?
I completely agree with this - I make this sort of suggestion every two
months or so on XML-DEV. The collection of additional libraries for XML (in
common languages like Java, Perl, C(++)) would be of enormous value. Some
should be directly related to XML functionality (e.g. isValidXMLName(String
version)) while others would provide CDC-like support. As an example,
isValidXMLName() is probably liftable from various parsers (I am sure it's
well exposed in XML4J).
It takes time, of course, and to do it as a virtual community would be an
enormous challenge. A first step would be to identify that functionality
where it already exists in publicly available software. And for authors to
announce this availability when the announce software.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 00:00:30 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Revised NamespaceFilter
Message-ID: <35D21069.DBA7341E@locke.ccil.org>
A revised NamespaceFilter SAX parser, conforming (more or less)
to the new namespace draft, is now available at:
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ns.jar .
This is source code only. It now looks *exactly* like a regular
SAX parser, and can be specified to any SAX application using
-Dorg.xml.sax.parser=org.ccil.cowan.sax.NamespaceFilter.
The real SAX parser must be specified as the value of the Java property org.ccil.cowan.sax.ParserFilter.org.ccil.cowan.sax.NamespaceFilter.
Yes, I know it's ugly.
This version uses the dagger (U+2020) in UniversalNames to separate
the URI from the localPart. When the event structure for
namespace-aware SAX parsers settles, I will modify it to use that.
Note that the JDK1.1.5 console driver prints the dagger as "?", but it
isn't really a "?".
Feedback is earnestly solicited.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 00:09:30 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Forthcoming: UnDOM, InheritanceFilter, LocalMarkupFilter
Message-ID: <35D2127E.FB38A2AD@locke.ccil.org>
New projects soon to be forthcoming:
UnDOM: a SAX parser that reads a org.w3c.dom.Document rather than an
InputSource, and generates the appropriate SAX events for each object
in the DOM document tree. This was originally going to be called
"DOMinion", as being the opposite of "FreeDOM", but the latter is
changing its name. UnDOM should work with any conformant Java
DOM implementation, and allows tricks like parsing a file into
a DOM and then replaying it multiple times.
InheritanceFilter: a SAX parser filter that detects
inherited attributes and returns them as part of every element
within the scope. Initially only "xml:space" and "xml:lang" are
inherited, but an application may add any attributes it likes.
In addition, a PI will allow a document to specify such attributes too.
LocalMarkupFilter: a SAX parser filter that detects and expands
locally defined markup characters within XML character data.
This is a simpler analogue of SGML shortrefs, but (because it is
less flexible) can be done after ordinary XML parsing rather than
integrated with it. It eliminates some of the need to parse
character data with a separate post-XML parser.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Aug 13 01:17:12 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:56 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
References:
Message-ID: <35D22244.DAFED6E7@allette.com.au>
> The problem is that we don't have a good name for a collection of XML
> documents working tightly together, the way that a collection of Java
> classes can work in an applet or application -- "web" seems too loose,
> and "docuverse" seems too New-Age. Any suggestions?
What about "weaves" - it leaves scope to define things like looms (that create
weaves) and strands (generally the equivalent of an XML document).
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www: http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 13 01:31:06 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: Forthcoming: UnDOM, InheritanceFilter, LocalMarkupFilter
In-Reply-To: <35D2127E.FB38A2AD@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980813003101.4c370bbe@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 18:09 12/08/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>New projects soon to be forthcoming:
Looks brilliant. The InheritanceFilter is exactly what I have been asking
for. (At least I assume it will be). You obviously enjoy this :-).
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au Thu Aug 13 02:54:13 1998
From: tln at insect.sd.monash.edu.au (Thuy-Linh Nguyen)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: [help]xml4j (linux)
Message-ID: <199808130057.KAA06057@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
Hi !
Thank you Ross, for reminding me that :-)
The problem is requoted here:
>Now jre seems to work ok. But when running this command:
>>jre -cp xml4j.jar trlx -d personal.xml
>I got this error:
>>SIGSEGV 11* segmentation violation
>>
>>Full thread dump:
>>Killed
>I'm running xml4j 1.0.4 and jdk 1.1.3. I've tried
>>jre -cp xml4j_1.0.4.jar trlx -d personal.xml
>and still got the same error
Solution: change to jdk1.1.5 !
I'm not sure whether my jdk1.1.3 installation has something wrong
with it, or the 1.1.3 version does not work with xml4j. I got both of
them on my machine, and a soft link from "java" to jdk1.1.3. All what
I did was to change "java" to link to jdk1.1.5.
Cheers,
Thuy-Linh.
> Date: Wed, 12 Aug 1998 20:11:10 +1000
> To: Thuy-Linh Nguyen
> From: Ross Moore
> Subject: Re: [help]xml4j (linux)
> >Hi !
> >I've solved my problem !!! :-))) Sorry to bother you !
> >
> Glad to hear it...
>
> ...but would you please give a brief indication of what was wrong,
> so it's on record in case it happens to someone else too
> --- even if only something silly like not setting a path variable.
>
> That fact that you had a problem is already on record,
> so the solution ought to be there as well.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Ross Moore
>
****************************************************************************
Thuy-Linh Nguyen
CSSE, PO Box 197, Monash Univerisity, Caulfield East, VIC 3145, Australia
Ph: 61-3-9903-2041, Fax: 61-3-9903-1077, http://www.sd.monash.edu.au/~tln/
****************************************************************************
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Thu Aug 13 05:17:21 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net> <199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
David Megginson wrote:
>
> > ... Colonized namespaces can contain property values from different
> > classes of objects in a single document yes? To me as an SGMLer, a
> > colonized document *looks like* an SGML document with multiple
> > doctype statements.
>
> Or a class implementing multiple interfaces (sorry, I couldn't
> resist).
Ok. It's all hanging under an object tree with a classID in the
toys they give me at work. Sigh.. we are MSThralls and while it
may not be kosher, the code runs. :-)
If wrong, kick me. An ns attribute addresses a schema. That
schema defines the namespace. In some examples, that points to a
DTD, doing the job a Doctype does without the other stuff and
no assertion about the capability of the schema except that
it can be used to disambiguate the namespace for properties
in the local scope. In others, it points to a classID in a registry.
One might be semi-sorta-kinda-liftTongue BNF, and the other is, here in
ThrallLand, an Active-X object.
So it looks to me like both models are right and both
represent different things. For the purposes of creating
a compound instance, namespaces look good. Validation?
Having one file with multiple parse/validation contexts
seems to go way beyond the skill of the DePH, and is
maybe HarderThanSGML????? Where are those simple requirements?
Ok, what IS a compound document type definition (CDTD)?
It is a very interesting problem. Here is my challenge:
regardless of public relations and so on, an SGML DTD is a
reasonable thing to look and use to eyeBall parse a
file given resolution of the parameter entities. It
takes a little practice, but most oldSGMLers can do it.
An XML compound DTD should also provide this ability.
len
PS: I promise to read XML-Data ASAP.
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From avirr at LanMinds.Com Thu Aug 13 05:22:25 1998
From: avirr at LanMinds.Com (Avi Rappoport)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: REQ: ISO 8601 Comments
In-Reply-To:
References: <008501bdc61e$fcc09540$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID:
> On the more general note...is there a repository for general
>domain nonspecific DTD's for stuff like times, dates, directory listings,
>etc? It would be nice if we could have one place for all this, and
>software for parsing and representing information stored in these formats.
>I mean, as soon as I find myself creating declarations for stuff like
>datetime I know someone else must have done it already, and probably have
>a Java class which can load itself using SAX events. What are the large
>companies such as Microsoft using for this in stuff like Office 2000?
XML Exchange (http://www.xmlx.com/) is a good location for this kind of
thing. It's now sponsored by CommerceNet and I'm sure we could get an
"essential tool" category installed.
Avi
________________________________________________________________
Avi Rappoport, Web Site Search Tools Maven
Search Tools Consulting Site:
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From jylee at t2000.co.kr Thu Aug 13 05:50:50 1998
From: jylee at t2000.co.kr (Jiyun Lee)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: [Q]single Vs. double quote in representing AttValue
Message-ID: <01BDC6B8.BAF6CAE0@jylee.t2000.re.kr>
I found some documents which use single quotation marks
to surround attribute's values.
ex. from XML spec in XML :
.........
decl.
Is there any differences between sigle quote and double quote
in representing the attribute's value? In the spec, both are possble.
I'd like to know the rule for using them, if the rule exists.
Thank you inadvance.
__
Lee, Jiyun
Technical Center, Techno2000 Project, Inc. E-mail : jylee@t2000.co.kr
807 Wallpyung-dong Seo-gu Voice : +82-42-483-2851
Taejon, Korea Fax : +82-42-483-2854
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From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Aug 13 06:21:08 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: [Q]single Vs. double quote in representing AttValue
References: <01BDC6B8.BAF6CAE0@jylee.t2000.re.kr>
Message-ID: <35D26988.2A074D3D@allette.com.au>
Jiyun Lee wrote:
> Is there any differences between sigle quote and double quote
> in representing the attribute's value? In the spec, both are possble.
> I'd like to know the rule for using them, if the rule exists.
No, there's no difference. This has been carried through as a limited means of presenting attribute values that
contain quotation marks as data characters. For instance, you might use:
or
but still not
or
as the first occurrence of a quotation mark that matches the opening one delimits the attribute value.
The rule is - be careful...
--
Regards
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www: http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
_______________________________________________________________
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 13 09:57:10 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: Helping with specific problems (was Re: [help]xml4j (Linux))
In-Reply-To: <199808130057.KAA06057@insect.sd.monash.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980813083613.4d7fdd64@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 10:54 13/08/98 +0000, Thuy-Linh Nguyen wrote:
[... about a problem with xml4j ...]
and then wrote in great jubilation...
>
>> >Hi !
>> >I've solved my problem !!! :-))) Sorry to bother you !
>> >
and Ross Moore advised...
>> Glad to hear it...
>>
>> ...but would you please give a brief indication of what was wrong,
>> so it's on record in case it happens to someone else too
>> --- even if only something silly like not setting a path variable.
This is exactly what we'd like, and thanks for suggesting it. Help of this
kind can make the difference between getting some sleep and none at all
:-). Java has particular problems with CLASSPATH and also loading
incompatible class libraries. I think I had the latter when I was using an
out-of-date Jar file for one of the parsers. Quite difficult to pick up.
BTW there was a discussion on XML-DEV some months ago about how Java could
stamp versions of classes so it was impossible to pick up the wrong ones.
Has that made it into JDK1.2 and if so, is it recommended?
P.
BTW many thanks to those who wrote privately to me and pointed out that
java.text.SimpleDateFormat is the class to start using instead of
java.util.Date. It works reasonably well, but doesn't seem to throw errors
on things like 1998-08-32
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Thu Aug 13 10:50:42 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: James Anderson's table
References: <35D1A613.A9CD0EFD@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <35D2AAAC.D1018204@mecomnet.de>
John Cowan wrote:
>
> [... yes, thank you.]
>
> But anyway, here are the correct values, based on the principle
> that a value defaulted from the DTD is equivalent in every way
I am not certain that this is "correct". As I had noted in the "cover note", I
had followed one of the alternatives:
IV: for the moment, i've chosen the precedence
tag-content,
bindings-from-containing-elements,
attribute-defaults
where the bindings-from-containing-elements takes its initial value from the xml-decl.
The justification is that lexically apparent bindings (modulo the answer on
entities) take precedence over declared defaults. One could reasonable take
that a step further, and argue that the distinction fixed v/s simply default
on a declared attribute should figure here as well, with the effect that fixed
defaults take precedence over the bindings in the lexical context, while
simple defaults do not. I didn't do that, but the information is there to make
the distinction, and I don't see anything "wrong" with it.
> to one explicitly present in the instance (except of course that
> if both are available, the explicit one takes precedence):
>
> ...
>
> The cell "cb" vs. "cd" can come out either way, depending on which
> is the nearer ancestor.
This is also not self-evident. The presence of the lexically apparent binding
could quite reasonably be said to take precedence. I would hestitate to say
proximity is the right criteria for precedence until either I've seen some
'real' instances or the standard describes the situation and specifies how to
resolve it.
[Even then I might differ on whether it was "right", but at least I'd be
certain about what to implement...]
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From David.Rosenborg at xsse.se Thu Aug 13 11:01:25 1998
From: David.Rosenborg at xsse.se (David Rosenborg)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: John Cowan's view on SAX extensions for ns drafts
References: <3.0.1.16.19980811202739.6c2fbcae@pop3.demon.co.uk> <35D17985.5F8EA280@xsse.se> <35D1A282.E3B2ABE@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <35D2AAD2.8B735B0B@xsse.se>
John Cowan wrote:
>
> David Rosenborg wrote:
>
> > Is it really necessary for the parser to deal with namespaces at
> > all (if we don't consider namespace aware validation for the moment)?
>
> Depends what you think "the parser" is. My design was for something
> that a parser could implement if it wanted to, but could also be
> layered over a ns-blind parser.
>
Yes, sorry, my question was irrelevant.
Still I think that the NamespaceResolver should not be part of
the event. One reason, as I said, is that it could easily
live as a utility on the application side and it would then
better match the other events in style. A second, and more important
reason I think, is that as it is specified now, it introduces a
new kind of state. This state is transient just as the state of
AttributeLists. The difference is that it lives beyond the
method handling the event and is terminated at some time later.
I think this adds an unnecessary complexity to SAX.
Instead you could provide a helper interface and even an
NamespaceEnabledHandlerBase that implemented that interface
together with the namespace handler interface.
Then you could write, without worrying about namespace scope
and state at all:
class Foo extends NamespaceEnabledHandlerBase
{
public void startElement (String name, AttributeList attributes)
throws SAXException
{
UniversalName uname = resolveElementName (name);
...
}
}
______________________________________________________________________
David.Rosenborg@xsse.se Stockholm Stock Exchange
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From jjc at jclark.com Thu Aug 13 13:08:26 1998
From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:57 2004
Subject: XP 0.4 available
Message-ID: <35D2C5E7.EB8C0D9B@jclark.com>
XP 0.4 is now available. See
http://www.jclark.com/xml/xp/
for more information.
The main change in this release apart from bug fixes is that XP now
makes available much more information about the markup of the document
(non-ESIS information) including information about comments, entity
references and the document type.
James
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From ricker at xmls.com Thu Aug 13 13:16:20 1998
From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
References: <3.0.32.19980805133922.00a9be4c@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID:
Lars,
My first reaction was just like Tim's: this is OSD. But then I saw that it
was more of the e-commerce part rather than the mechanics of software
distribution. Am I right? If so, perhaps it should be a part of a larger
effort. Have you spoken to the RosettaNet project about your ideas?
Jeffrey Ricker
ricker@xmls.com
At 10:27 AM 8/7/98 +0200, Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
>
>* Lars Marius Garshol
>>
>>This is a proposal for XML Software Autoupdate, a system for
>>automatically keeping track of new releases of software products.
>
>* Tim Bray
>>
>>Isn't this what OSD, from MS & Marimba, is supposed to do?
>
>Yes, in a sense. However, XSA concerns itself with discovering
>new versions and changed addresses, while OSD goes much further,
>and omits some of the most useful parts of XSA.
>
>Compare the example below from the OSD spec with the XSA sample
>and I think you'll see what I mean. I looked at OSD before I
>started this, but skipped it as it simply wasn't suitable for
>my purposes.
>
>
> Solitaire
> Solitaire by FooBar Corporation
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--Lars M.
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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>
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 13 13:33:29 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: LISTRIVIA (was Re: XSA proposal)
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
<3.0.32.19980805133922.00a9be4c@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980813123337.09f7d666@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 07:11 13/08/98 -0400, [... an XML-DEVer] wrote:
[... a short message, followed by unnecessary quoting of the previous
longer one
including the xml-dev sig...]
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From david at megginson.com Thu Aug 13 14:25:04 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
In-Reply-To: <35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
len bullard writes:
> If wrong, kick me. An ns attribute addresses a schema.
> That schema defines the namespace.
The namespace URI is simply a unique prefix that can be shared by a
collection of names -- it is not guaranteed to point to anything at
all (some people wanted to *forbid* it from pointing to anything), nor
is it guaranteed that all names with the same prefix are defined by
the same schema (or by any explicit schema).
> PS: I promise to read XML-Data ASAP.
I'd recommend starting with DCD, which is newer.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Aug 13 14:27:03 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To:
References: <3.0.1.32.19980807102759.00cf8480@ifi.uio.no>
<3.0.32.19980805133922.00a9be4c@207.34.179.21>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980813142157.0072b968@ifi.uio.no>
* Jeffrey Ricker
>
>My first reaction was just like Tim's: this is OSD. But then I saw that it
>was more of the e-commerce part rather than the mechanics of software
>distribution. Am I right?
To tell you the truth my first reaction now was that I need to rewrite the
motivation part. :-)
XSA is supposed to solve a very simple problem: I and lots and lots of
other people maintain lists of software and we have a very difficult
time keeping them up to date. New versions are released that make our
descriptions obsolete, email addresses change, links die, product names
change etc etc
If developers could maintain XSA documents that listed these things anyone
who was interested could poll them for changes at intervals and discover
these things automatically. Today most software list maintainers simply
don't even try to keep their coverage up to date and instead rely on
developers to do it for them. The developers usually have their products
listed in too many places for this to be feasible, hence XSA.
What I've done besides the specification is to write a Java API and a
client that can be run from a cron job so that list maintainers (and
whoever else might be interested) can get email when something happens.
E-commerce never entered the picture, but that's not to say that an
expanded version might be useful in such a context as well. Or that XSA
might not make use of information published for e-commerce purposes.
>If so, perhaps it should be a part of a larger effort.
That would suit me well. For this to work people need to write actual
XSA documents, publish them and update them. This is the Achilles heel
of the project: if nobody does that XSA is dead. The more official this
looks the greater the chance that people will take it seriously to do
it. (Which is why I've now added OSD support. It's tested and it works,
as far as it goes.)
To alleviate this I've made two CGI scripts that give users a form to
fill out and return a validated XSA document ready for publishing.
That simplifies creation, but the real problem is to be taken seriously.
Also, the reason I've kept XSA as simple as possible (and omitting almost
everything in OSD) is to make the documents easy to create and modify.
For the purpose I had in mind I don't see any benefits to more
information, but that would make XSA harder to get started with.
>Have you spoken to the RosettaNet project about your ideas?
Never heard of it, I'm afraid. The stuff I dug up with AltaVista looks
like something that it might be possible to integrate with XSA (sort of
like I've now done with OSD), but I just didn't know about it before.
Do you have some URLs with details and perhaps some contact addresses?
--Lars M.
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 13 17:07:36 1998
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: DCD and namespaces.
Message-ID: <00bd01bdc6cc$b68c06a0$a9acdccf@ix.netcom.com>
Hi,
a quick question about DCD.
Is a namespace declaration necessary in the same way it is in XML-Data, and
if it is which of the following (if either) is correct.
Example1.
http://w3.org/Schemas/DCDGreetingData Hello World!
Example2
GreetingData Hello World!
TIA,
Frank
Frank Boumphrey
XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm
Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 17:51:05 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: James Anderson's table
References: <35D1A613.A9CD0EFD@locke.ccil.org> <35D2AAAC.D1018204@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <35D30B4E.AE306CD0@locke.ccil.org>
james anderson wrote:
> IV: for the moment, i've chosen the precedence
> tag-content,
> bindings-from-containing-elements,
> attribute-defaults
> where the bindings-from-containing-elements takes its initial value from the xml-decl.
This cannot be correct XML, and what is not correct XML is not correct
XML-ns. An XML processor, as Tim Bray pointed out the other day,
must implement attribute defaulting (modulo problems with not reading
external DTD/parameter entities), but need not tell the application
whether the attribute was explicitly present or defaulted.
Therefore, no application can make distinctions on this basis. An
attribute of the current element, explicit or defaulted, takes
precedence over an attribute inherited from an ancestral element.
The final example in clause 2.12 of the XML Rec is indicative: it shows
a variety of elements with default values for xml:lang, also an
inherited attribute. The intent of that example is clearly that
"poem" elements are French by default, and "gloss" and "note" elements
are English by default, independent of context. All other elements
presumably inherit the language from context.
> This is also not self-evident. The presence of the lexically apparent binding
> could quite reasonably be said to take precedence.
You value explicit attribute values over implicit ones in a way that has
no warrant in the XML Rec.
> I would hestitate to say
> proximity is the right criteria for precedence until either I've seen some
> 'real' instances or the standard describes the situation and specifies how to
> resolve it.
Unfortunately, all the examples in the draft are DTD-less. Nevertheless, based
on the precedent of xml:lang and Tim's remarks, I feel sure that I am correct.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Thu Aug 13 17:59:04 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19980813142157.0072b968@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
> XSA is supposed to solve a very simple problem: I and lots and lots of
> other people maintain lists of software and we have a very difficult
> time keeping them up to date. New versions are released that make our
> descriptions obsolete, email addresses change, links die, product names
> change etc etc
Yes.
> If developers could maintain XSA documents that listed these things anyone
> who was interested could poll them for changes at intervals and discover
> these things automatically. Today most software list maintainers simply
> don't even try to keep their coverage up to date and instead rely on
> developers to do it for them. The developers usually have their products
> listed in too many places for this to be feasible, hence XSA.
Linux developers (especially those using RedHat Package Manager, which -
side note to Tim - is one of the finest pieces of software for configuration
management I've ever worked with) have something like this already, though
not markup-language-based, called the Linux Software Map.
http://www.linux.org/apps/lsm.html
http://www.ExecPC.com/lsm/
Every piece of software produced for (or ported to) Linux is expected to
have a .lsm file included in its distribution. The format of the document
is simple, and described in this readme:
ftp://ftp.execpc.com/pub/lsm/LSM.README
I think this would make an excellent foundation for an XML application.
It might be useful to look at this as well as the IAFA format also
described the the above readme.
S
(my opinions only, not those of the WSP :) Heh.
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com | "Do not allow your children to become
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ | desensitized to violence. Beat them
http://dhtml.hesketh.com | harder every day!" - the Onion
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 13 18:06:32 1998
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: DCD and Global attributes.
Message-ID: <00cb01bdc6d4$bf6b7960$a9acdccf@ix.netcom.com>
Hi,
it is my understanding that an AttributeDef can take a attribute/value
Boolean of Global. For example in HTML nearly all elements can take the
attributes ?class, style, name, id, type etc.?
If we were using DCD to define the HTML4 schema we could do the following
etc
Which mean that the attributes would apply to all the ElementDef?s declared
in the element simply by adding. Attribute= ?class?
For example
(I assume that one can convert the attribute element in this way for the
second syntax form)
This could lead to a lot of repetious mark-up in a large document.
It struck me that it may be preferable to default every thing to the global
attributes, and provide a means of exempting elements that we do not wish
them to apply to.
Frank
Frank Boumphrey
XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm
Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com
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From david at megginson.com Thu Aug 13 18:13:35 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: What XML parsers have to report (was Re: James Anderson's table)
In-Reply-To: <35D30B4E.AE306CD0@locke.ccil.org>
References: <35D1A613.A9CD0EFD@locke.ccil.org>
<35D2AAAC.D1018204@mecomnet.de>
<35D30B4E.AE306CD0@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808131611.MAA00315@unready.megginson.com>
John Cowan writes:
> james anderson wrote:
>
> > IV: for the moment, i've chosen the precedence
> > tag-content,
> > bindings-from-containing-elements,
> > attribute-defaults
> > where the bindings-from-containing-elements takes its initial value from the xml-decl.
>
> This cannot be correct XML, and what is not correct XML is not correct
> XML-ns. An XML processor, as Tim Bray pointed out the other day,
> must implement attribute defaulting (modulo problems with not reading
> external DTD/parameter entities), but need not tell the application
> whether the attribute was explicitly present or defaulted.
One of the new items of work assigned to the XML Working Group is the
creation of a formal XML data model, specifying what information XML
parsers must deliver to an application (but not how the information
should be delivered -- that's up to formal or informal standards like
the DOM and SAX).
This matters quite a bit because right now, a processor is not
required to report attribute values at all (for example); here's what
the spec says (3.3.2, "Attribute Defaults"):
If a default value is declared, when an XML processor encounters an
omitted attribute, it is to behave as though the attribute were
present with the declared default value.
Later, in 3.3.3, the spec does include the words "Before the value of
an attribute is passed to the application or checked for validity...",
implying an intention, at least, that the value should be passed on,
but it's never stated as a requirement. Here's what the XML 1.0 REC
explicitly requires parsers to report to applications:
1) Processing instructions (2.6).
2) All non-markup characters, including whitespace (2.10) [presumably
only those within the document element, though the spec is unclear].
3) Normalised line-ends (2.11) [exception to #2].
4) The external identifiers of unparsed entities and notations (4).
5) Unreferenced external parsed entities (4.4.3).
Note that elements and attributes are _not_ in the list (oops!). Only
the common sense (or blissful ignorance) of parser writers has
guaranteed that that information is always available.
In any case, John is correct: it shouldn't matter whether an attribute
value is defaulted or specified. As a logical task, namespace
processing takes place *after* XML 1.0 parsing and validation, not
before -- for SGML weenies, think of namespace processing as a
transformation applied to a grove.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 18:26:00 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: Revised NamespaceFilter
Message-ID: <35D31355.5103A900@locke.ccil.org>
I have had a report that my ns.jar downloads in garbled form.
The trouble arises because the Web server at www.ccil.org (which
I do not control) reports unknown extensions as type "text/plain",
so people downloading from non-Unix sites are getting unwanted
LF->CRLF conversions.
Please download from http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ns.zip instead.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org Thu Aug 13 18:49:09 1998
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: ; from Steven Champeon on Thu, Aug 13, 1998 at 11:58:44AM -0400
References: <3.0.1.32.19980813142157.0072b968@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <19980813124837.B27268@w3.org>
Steven Champeon wrote:
> Linux developers (especially those using RedHat Package Manager, which -
> side note to Tim - is one of the finest pieces of software for configuration
> management I've ever worked with) have something like this already, though
> not markup-language-based, called the Linux Software Map.
>
> http://www.linux.org/apps/lsm.html
> http://www.ExecPC.com/lsm/
I guess you should have a look at my RPM RDF database.
Principle: I mirror apprximately 15000 RPM packages from various distributions
I use a specific tool rpm2html [1] to extract all the metadata from the
packages, it dump them as a set of hyperlinked HTML [2] pages (the link
expressing verious dependencies between packages and distributions). The
same informations are encoded as an RDF database [3].
I also developped a client side tool rpmfind [4] which uses HTTP to
query the database and select the best packages for the current user setup
(by looking at the local installed software base too !).
This provide the user a list of packages to download to install a given
software (e.g. to install gimp you may need an exotic graphic library
not available on your system, rpmfind will solve that), then it also query
the database for mirrors and try to find the nearest one, and does the
FTP transfer for you if you want.
This software is based on (sorry !) my own XML and RDF code [5], currently
the database format is not valid XML but I will upgrade soon (probably within
a week) to something decent (with new namespace encoding). The FTP and
HTTP transfer are done using libWWW [6].
Example:
---------- /linux/RDF/redhat/5.1/i386/libc-5.3.12-27.i386.rdf ---------
libc5.3.1227i386LinuxManhattan Red Hat SoftwareRed Hat Software <bugs@redhat.com>LibrariesCompability libraries for old libc.so.5 applicationsOlder Linux systems (including all Red Hat Linux releases between 2.0
and 4.2, inclusive) were based on libc 5. This package includes these
libraries and other libraries based on libc 5, allowing old applcications
to run on glibc (libc 6) based systems.distributable* Tue May 05 1998 Cristian Gafton <gafton@redhat.com>
- fixed postuninstall script
* Mon Apr 27 1998 Prospector System <bugs@redhat.com>
- translations modified for de, fr, tr
* Tue Dec 23 1997 Cristian Gafton <gafton@redhat.com>
- updated for the vsyslog() security-fixed libc
- uses a BuildRoot
* Mon Nov 10 1997 Erik Troan <ewt@redhat.com>
- updated Xpm lib to one built w/ dependency info
- added svgalib
* Tue Sep 23 1997 Erik Troan <ewt@redhat.com>
- added ncurses libraries
* Mon Sep 08 1997 Erik Troan <ewt@redhat.com>
- updated X libraries to 3.1.1
- added provides of libm.so.5
* Sun Aug 24 1997 Erik Troan <ewt@redhat.com>
- initial build as compatibility package
libc-5.3.12-27.src.rpmftp://ftp.redhat.com/pub/redhat/redhat-5.1/SRPMSTue May 5 23:54:21 19988944268615420357porky.redhat.comlibclibc.so.5libstdc++.so.27libg++.so.27libm.so.5/sbin/ldconfiggrepfileutils/lib/ld-linux.so.1/bin/sh/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libICE.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libICE.so.6.3
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libPEX5.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libSM.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libX11.so.6.1
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXIE.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXaw.so.6.1
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXaw3d.so.6.1
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXext.so.6.1
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXext.so.6.3
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXi.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXmu.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXpm.so.4.9
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXt.so.6.0
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libXtst.so.6.1
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libc.so.5.3.12
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libform.so.1.9.9e
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libg++.so.27.1.4
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libm.so.5.0.6
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libmenu.so.1.9.9e
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libncurses.so.1.9.9e
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libpanel.so.1.9.9e
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libstdc++.so.27.1.4
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libtermcap.so.2.0.8
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libvga.so.1.2.11
/usr/i486-linux-libc5/lib/libvgagl.so.1.2.11
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You can grab linux binaries and source at:
ftp://rufus.w3.org/pub/rpmfind/
There is now quite a few mirror for the HTML pages and 2 mirrors for
the RDF database,
Daniel
[1] http://rufus.w3.org/linux/rpm2html/
[2] http://rufus.w3.org/linux/RPM/
[3] http://rufus.w3.org/linux/RDF/
[4] http://rufus.w3.org/linux/rpm2html/rpmfind.html
[5] http://dev.w3.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb [XML,rpmfind,rpm2html]
[6] http://www.w3.org/Library/
--
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C MIT/LCS NE43-344 | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +1 617 253 5884 | 545 Technology Square | Linux, WWW, rpm2html,
Fax : +1 617 258 5999 | Cambridge, MA 02139 USA | badminton, Kaffe,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | HTTP-NG and Amaya.
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From schampeo at hesketh.com Thu Aug 13 18:55:24 1998
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: XSA proposal
In-Reply-To: <19980813124837.B27268@w3.org>
Message-ID:
On Thu, 13 Aug 1998, Daniel Veillard wrote:
> I guess you should have a look at my RPM RDF database.
*jaw drops*
Wow. Um, yeah, like *that*. :)
*bows*
--
http://a.jaundicedeye.com | "Do not allow your children to become
http://hesketh.com/schampeo/ | desensitized to violence. Beat them
http://dhtml.hesketh.com | harder every day!" - the Onion
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From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 13 19:52:29 1998
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
Message-ID: <5030300024032611000002L012*@MHS>
>I was writing about Java source files, the relevant scoping region for
>package declarations. A Java file is a _compilation_ unit, not a class,
>since it is possible (if not favored practice) to put several classes into
>one source file. I agree that entities and include files are somewhat
>similar, and that explains some of the problems with entities: potential
>name clashes or namespace prefix capture by the entity referencing context.
>Part of my point is in direct agreement with your point; all such
>analogies are hazardous and should be treated like radiactive material
>-- potentially useful, and potentially deadly.
I think though that drawing from the existing body of experience is still
important, right? When I was
polled about the namespace draft by our folks, I said I thought it should go
forward because the
issues of scoping were well proven in existing programming languages. However,
I (being still kind
of new to the XML world) did not fully understand the new spec. If I had
understood that it was not
suggesting the use of namespaces in a way anything like that of the languages I
had experience
with, I probably would have said the opposite.
Back to the C++ example... As someone rightly pointed out, its model is that of
the "declare them all
up front" genre. Scoping is not used to nest invocations of namespaces, but to
nest the use of
instances of types. And, it did not sink into my tiny reptilian brain that
namespaces would be
named by every individual user of them as apposed to being given a name and
being used that
way forever more by everyone.
So the existing spec would be like this (in unreal pseudo code):
using namespace Hubba as Bubba;
Bubba::SomeType foo()
{
if (blah blah blah)
{
using namespace Jean as Bubba;
return Bubba::SomeType(0);
}
}
So is this 'legal' or not? It would depend upon the particular namespace mapped
to Bubba at
the time where the foo() method was prototyped I guess. But visually, I would
be hard pressed
to figure it out myself according to how convoluted a path I got foo() into my
program by.
I wouldn't want a progrmaming language that worked that way particularly, nor
would I use it that
way if it did provide those services. It would present all of the same problems
that everyone else
has brought up. I (and my compiler) could never know what Bubba::SomeType
really meant
without a lot of effort that isn't worth what you get out of it.
It seems to me, if you were to follow the previous experience forward, you
would have to go
back to the "declare'em all up front" mechanism, and apply scoping only to
those things that
previous experience has shown it useful for, which would be 'variables'
From david at megginson.com Thu Aug 13 21:39:24 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:58 2004
Subject: Revised NamespaceFilter
In-Reply-To: <35D21069.DBA7341E@locke.ccil.org>
References: <35D21069.DBA7341E@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <199808131938.PAA00385@unready.megginson.com>
John Cowan writes:
> This version uses the dagger (U+2020) in UniversalNames to separate
> the URI from the localPart. When the event structure for
> namespace-aware SAX parsers settles, I will modify it to use that.
Why not use a space? It is forbidden in URIs and XML names as well,
and looks a little cleaner.
I'm still looking forward to trying out your code, if all of the dust
in the rest of my life settles before Montr?al.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 22:02:39 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Revised NamespaceFilter
References: <35D21069.DBA7341E@locke.ccil.org> <199808131938.PAA00385@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D34641.3A1D2D15@locke.ccil.org>
David Megginson wrote:
> Why not use a space? It is forbidden in URIs and XML names as well,
> and looks a little cleaner.
Because UniversalNames are conceptually unitary, and it's hard to
see "http://www.baz.bar/zam FOO" as a unitary object (unless you
come from the ITS world, where " " was the pathname delimiter).
I'm switching to "^", which is ASCII but illegal in both URIs and Names.
I've also simplified the property name for the underlying parser
to just "org.ccil.cowan.sax.NamespaceFilter.useParser".
> I'm still looking forward to trying out your code, if all of the dust
> in the rest of my life settles before Montr?al.
I hope so.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 23:19:25 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Local Markup
Message-ID: <35D35842.6A7173E3@locke.ccil.org>
The following is put forth for comments.
1. Abstract
This document describes a local markup facility for XML. This serves
some of the purposes of SGML short references, but can be layered over
XML parsing rather than integrated into it. By declaring appropriate
processing instructions, character data within selected elements
with mixed content can be effectively turned into element content.
Terms not defined here are as in the XML Recommendation.
2. Motivating Example
A DATE element may appear in an XML document with #PCDATA content
containing an ISO 8601 date, as follows:
1998-08-13T14:15:16
A conformant local markup processor, given appropriate PIs, can
process this as if it were:
19980813141516
where the dashes have been turned into empty D elements, the T
separating time and date (a feature of ISO 8601) has been turned
into an empty T element, and the colons into empty C elements.
In this way, the application reading this data can allow the XML
parser to be the only parser, rather than having a separate date
parser behind the XML parser.
One possible set of relevant PIs are:
LM-DEF char="-" group="ISO8601" element="D" ?>
LM-DEF char="T" group="ISO8601" element="T" ?>
LM-DEF char=":" group="ISO8601" element="C" ?>
LM-USE element="DATE" group="ISO8601" ?>
The above interpretation, though much more useful than the raw
character data, does not take into account the existence of
hierarchical information. This document, therefore, also provides
a way to make the interpretation come out as follows:
19980813141516
(The indentation is shown here for clarity only.)
This is still not as nice as actual eleements named YEAR, MONTH, DAY,
etc., but preserves the structure of the original. Here are some
PIs that do the job:
LM-DEF char="-" group="ISO8601" element="PART" ?>
LM-DEF char="T" group="ISO8601" element="SEGMENT" ?>
LM-DEF char=":" group="ISO8601" element="PART" ?>
LM-USE element="DATE" group="ISO8601" model="SEGMENT PART"?>
3. Processing Instructions
There are two PIs used to support local markup. The PI target
"LM-DEF" defines which characters are or may be local markup;
the PI target "LM-USE" specifies when local markup is in effect.
Both should appear before the start tag of the document element.
Neither affects the DTD in any way. Both PIs use pseudo-attributes
(PAs) in the style of the XML declaration; the pseudo-attributes may
appear in any order.
3.1 LM-DEF Pseudo-Attributes
These PAs are required in an LM-DEF PI. It is an error to have
two PIs with the same "char" and "group" values.
3.1.1 "char"
The "char" PA value has a value that either a Char or a
numeric character reference, which the LM processor will expand.
3.1.2 "group"
The "group" PA value matches Name. This Name is matched
with the "group" pseudo-attribute in an LM-USE PI.
3.1.3 "element"
The "element" PA value matches Name. It specifies the
element name corresponding to the character defined by "char".
3.2. LM-USE Pseudo-attributes
The "group" and "element" PAs are required in an
LM-USE PI. The "model" PA is optional. It is an error to have
two PIs with the same "element" value. [Query: maybe should be
an error only if both "group" and "element" values are the same?]
3.2.1 "group"
The "group" PA value matches Name. This Name is matched
with the "group" pseudo-attribute in an LM-DEF PI.
3.2.2 "element"
The "element" PA value matches Name. It specifies the
name of an element type. The characters in the group specified by
"group" are processed when found in the character data of elements with
this name.
3.2.3 "model"
The "element" PA matches Names. It names sub-elements
which are to be placed as children of the "element" element.
4. Processing Model
A conformant Local Markup processor reads and records all LM-DEF
and LM-USE PIs. It then processes the rest of the document,
searching for elements with names matching those declared in
the "element" PA of some LM-USE PI. All other elements and
markup remain unaltered.
When an element with an associated LM-USE PI is found, its character
data is searched for characters defined in LM-DEF PIs which share
the same "group" PA as the element. These characters are the
element's *local markup*, and the element is called the *base element*.
Each local markup character has a corresponding element type.
Local markup can be either *free* or *hierarchical*.
4.1 Free Local Markup
Local markup is free in an element if it does not meet the conditions
for hierarchical local markup. If the element associated with a
markup character is not mentioned in the "model" PA corresponding to
the base element, the markup is always free.
Free local markup characters are processed as if the corresponding
element was present in empty form. Thus if "!" has the element
"BANG", then a "!" will be treated like "", as follows:
LM-DEF char="!" group="a" element="BANG" ?>
LM-USE group="a" element="foo" ?>
foo!bar!baz
is treated as if it were:
foobarbaz
4.2 Hierarchical Local Markup
Hierarchical local markup can be present only if the base element
has an associated "model" PA. If so, then the elements mentioned
in the "model" PA are made the child, grandchild, great-grandchild ...
of the base element. For example:
LM-USE group="x" element="foo" model="baz zam" ?>
This is foo
is treated as if it were:
This is foo
Local markup characters are processed hierarchically only if two
conditions are met: the element corresponding to the character
must be part of the model, and the character must appear as a child
of the base element, not as part of some descendant of the base
element. Thus, in the following:
LM-DEF char="!" group="x" element="bar" ?>
LM-DEF char="#" group="x" element="baz" ?>
LM-USE group="x" element="foo" model="bar">
This is ! Empty !. Here is #
the first "!" is hierarchical, but the second "!" and the "#" are free.
A local markup character that is hierarchical is treated as if it
were a set of end-tags followed by a set of start-tags. The end-tags
are successively those from the end of the model, backward to and
including the one associated with the character. The start-tags
are the same but in reverse order. The previous example is therefore
treated as if it were:
This is Empty . Here is
ignoring the extra whitespace shown here for clarity only.
Using the second set of PIs in section 3, the element
1997T
is treated as if it were:
1997
because the T generates , of which
the last tag merges with the closing to
form an empty PART element.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Aug 13 23:28:40 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Local Markup: addendum
Message-ID: <35D35A67.7F9E6A24@locke.ccil.org>
Having just written all this out, I am now considering doing
it not with PIs but with attributes, in AF/XLink style.
So if you don't like PIs, think of the pseudo-attributes as
real attributes on random elements.
Or maybe LM-DEF should be a PI and LM-USE should be attributes....
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Fri Aug 14 03:28:47 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Java class != XML entity
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net> <199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net>
David Megginson wrote:
> The namespace URI is simply a unique prefix that can be shared by a
> collection of names -- it is not guaranteed to point to anything at
> all (some people wanted to *forbid* it from pointing to anything),
Hmm. How is that better than having a Doctype root if subdocs
were inlined? I can understand it not pointing to anything but
only in the context of how FPIs work in Doctypes.
So what am I to assume if I see a dt: prefix that has a classID
in the ns attribute, and another that *appears* to point at
a schema of some sort?
> nor
> is it guaranteed that all names with the same prefix are defined by
> the same schema (or by any explicit schema).
Outside a formal registry, I don't think that guarantee would
work anyway as the long long long debates on URI/URN/URLs showed.
John Cowan writes:
>Not necessarily. An ns attribute has an URI (URL or URN) as its
>value, but that URI doesn't have to point to anything in particular,
>as long as it's unique and syntactically valid.
Syntactically valid, OK. Unique? How is that enforced or proven? Yes,
I
watched the namespace debates. It is hard to tell what the namespace is
good for if the ns attribute is essentially a valid but purposeless bit
holder.
Ok, it *indicates* a scope. ???? I realize something subtle is being
defined, but maybe it is too subtle to be useful for much.
Consider me standing up to type...
If DCD isn't clearer than namespaces, than the HyTime drubbing
goes down as one of the great crimes of critique.
Precision aside, if the concepts and tools are harder to
figure out than SGML and HyTime, this time next year I
won't be the only one with a sore bottom. Wired and XavierMcLipps
are watching. -)
Ah so... back to reading the XML pages at www.microsoft.com
which for some reason are understandable and have working
code with which to test them. MSThralls rejoice.
Another names for a colonized document: braid.
len
len bullard wrote:
> If wrong, kick me. An ns attribute addresses a schema.
> PS: I promise to read XML-Data ASAP.
Read DCD instead, it's shorter and clearer.
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Fri Aug 14 03:42:03 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: DCD and Global attributes.
References: <00cb01bdc6d4$bf6b7960$a9acdccf@ix.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <35D39556.79A5@hiwaay.net>
Frank Boumphrey wrote:
>
> It struck me that it may be preferable to default every thing to the global
> attributes, and provide a means of exempting elements that we do not wish
> them to apply to.
Because I haven't read DCD yet, but will, take this with a grain of
salt:
this has the same awful feeling that putting include declarations on
SGML
DTD root element type declarations with excludes in branches did. Very
messy if convenient at times.
len
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From cfranks at microsoft.com Fri Aug 14 04:45:29 1998
From: cfranks at microsoft.com (Charles Frankston)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: DCD and Global attributes.
Message-ID:
I think this is better handled by the use of inheritance. I.e. you create a
base element that has all the attributes you wish to be "universal", and
derive all you elements from this base. This re-uses a mechanism we want
anyway, and allows finer grain control than universal vs. one-at-a-time.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Frank Boumphrey [mailto:bckman@ix.netcom.com]
> Sent: Thursday, August 13, 1998 9:09 AM
> To: Charles Frankston
> Cc: xml mailing list
> Subject: DCD and Global attributes.
>
>
> It struck me that it may be preferable to default every thing
> to the global
> attributes, and provide a means of exempting elements that we
> do not wish
> them to apply to.
>
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From jjc at jclark.com Fri Aug 14 06:37:53 1998
From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Expat 1.0 available
Message-ID: <35D3BB9F.A3779ECB@jclark.com>
Expat 1.0 is now available. See
http://www.jclark.com/xml/expat.html
for more information.
This is the first production release. The only changes since the last
beta version are a few minor bug fixes.
James
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From tms at ansa.co.uk Fri Aug 14 13:24:19 1998
From: tms at ansa.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:03:59 2004
Subject: Local Markup
In-Reply-To: John Cowan's message of "Thu, 13 Aug 1998 17:18:58 -0400"
References: <35D35842.6A7173E3@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID:
John> John Cowan
0> In article <35D35842.6A7173E3@locke.ccil.org>, John wrote:
John> The following is put forth for comments.
John>
John> 2. Motivating Example
John>
John> A DATE element may appear in an XML document with #PCDATA content
John> containing an ISO 8601 date, as follows:
John>
John> 1998-08-13T14:15:16
John>
John> A conformant local markup processor, given appropriate PIs, can
John> process this as if it were:
John>
John> 19980813141516
John>
John> where the dashes have been turned into empty D elements, the T
John> separating time and date (a feature of ISO 8601) has been turned
John> into an empty T element, and the colons into empty C elements.
Are you trying to re-invent SGML's SHORTREF?
--
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From david at megginson.com Fri Aug 14 15:01:51 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces
In-Reply-To: <35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net>
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
<199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
<35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <199808141300.JAA00271@unready.megginson.com>
len bullard writes:
> David Megginson wrote:
>
> > The namespace URI is simply a unique prefix that can be shared by a
> > collection of names -- it is not guaranteed to point to anything at
> > all (some people wanted to *forbid* it from pointing to anything),
>
> Hmm. How is that better than having a Doctype root if subdocs
> were inlined? I can understand it not pointing to anything but
> only in the context of how FPIs work in Doctypes.
Personally, I'd like to separate the issue of global names from that
of document composition: I do not think that namespaces are a useful
substitute for subdocuments (inline or out-of-line) -- that issue
still needs to be dealt with. Namespaces simply allow an element or
attribute to have a name that can be compared across documents and
document types. The name is something that other facilities, such as
schemas or stylesheets, can act upon, but it has no significance in
itself.
In other words, an element named "http://www.megginson.com/ + para" in
one document and an element named "http://www.megginson.com/ + para"
in a second document have the same name. Make of it what you will.
> So what am I to assume if I see a dt: prefix that has a classID
> in the ns attribute, and another that *appears* to point at
> a schema of some sort?
I'm not certain that I understand the question -- could you give an
example?
> If DCD isn't clearer than namespaces, than the HyTime drubbing
> goes down as one of the great crimes of critique.
> Precision aside, if the concepts and tools are harder to
> figure out than SGML and HyTime, this time next year I
> won't be the only one with a sore bottom. Wired and XavierMcLipps
> are watching. -)
The concepts underlying namespaces are simple enough (or could be,
with a little rewriting):
XML 1.0 elements and attributes have one-part names that are always
local to the document; namespaces allow the transformation of those
one-part local names into two-part global names, where the first
part is a URI and the second part is a simple name.
The WD contains much in the line of confusing and mostly-irrelevant
philosophical musings that (I hope) will eventually be deleted -- if
Len finds the spec confusing, I'm terrified of what will happen when
it hits the webmasters.
With the latest namespaces WD, however, XML can no longer fairly claim
to be simpler or more transparent than SGML -- the contextual
dependencies built into local scoping and defaulting are in the same
class as the contextual dependencies built into SHORTREF and OMITTAG
(both of which XML wisely discarded), though the algorithms for
resolving the namespaces are considerably simpler.
It is up to the reader to decide whether the fact of this complexity
vindicates HyTime or indicts XML. The temptation to obfuscate is hard
to resist.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From anderst at toolsmiths.se Fri Aug 14 15:04:46 1998
From: anderst at toolsmiths.se (Anders W. Tell)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: Corba IDL to XML generator
Message-ID: <35D36F3B.75F41CCF@toolsmiths.se>
Hi All,
Im just about to finish the first implementation of a Corba IDL to XML
generator and
Im not sure which DTD I should follow for the generated XML.
Does anyone know of appropriate DTDs that i can use ?
Or should I create one of my own ?
Regards
/Anders
--
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
/ Financial Toolsmiths AB /
/ Anders W. Tell /
/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri Aug 14 16:31:18 1998
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: Doctype dec and Namespaces
In-Reply-To: Peter Jones's message of Wed, 12 Aug 1998 18:45:06 +0100
References:
Message-ID:
Peter Jones writes:
> I've just been looking at the Namespaces WD of 2-Aug-98
> and I saw the following:
>
> doctypedecl ::= ' | PEReference | S)* ']' S?)? '>'
>
> I notice that a QName occurs in the definition. Does this mean that a
> Namespace which is global for the (presumably valid) document is
> declared between the and the doctype decl.?
Nope. The QNames in the prolog are all interpreted as atoms for now.
Namespace declarations are ONLY allowed on actual elements.
The interaction of namespaces and validation has not yet really been
addressed: wait for an update to the XML recommendation itself for
that, I expect.
The best short authoritative description of all this is in David
Megginson's message to this list on 11 August (Message-Id:
<199808112127.RAA01625@unready.megginson.com>),
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0395.html.
ht
--
Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 14 18:43:05 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: Local Markup
References: <35D35842.6A7173E3@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <35D468F1.4C1A83E1@locke.ccil.org>
Toby Speight wrote:
> Are you trying to re-invent SGML's SHORTREF?
Yes, but in a way that can be readily layered over SAX.
Please examine my proposal on its own merit: the operative
word is "re-invent".
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From tbray at textuality.com Fri Aug 14 18:55:10 1998
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: Local Markup
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19980814095347.00a1ae00@207.34.179.21>
At 05:18 PM 8/13/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>This document describes a local markup facility for XML. This serves
>some of the purposes of SGML short references
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrgh!
Another idea: let's mount a land invasion of Russia just as winter is
setting in. -Tim
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From fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov Fri Aug 14 19:22:05 1998
From: fblau at nina.snohomish.wa.gov (Frank Blau)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: HCFA 1500 DTD?
Message-ID: <35D4708B.F7D74C7@nina.snohomish.wa.gov>
Does anyone have information about a DTD or even a HTML version of the
HCFA 1500 form?
Frank
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Aug 14 19:54:59 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: Revised NamespaceFilter
References: <35D21069.DBA7341E@locke.ccil.org>
<199808131938.PAA00385@unready.megginson.com> <3.0.1.16.19980813232008.3b973380@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35D479C7.C7306295@locke.ccil.org>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> So am I :-) - I still have problems. The zip file expands in Winzip but
> gives 0-length files on W95 machine and invalid headers on 3.1 (under
> winzip). Or is it pkzipped?
I'm still bewildered. I have unzipped the files, which are now at
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ParserFilter.java
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/NamespaceFilter.java
http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/NamespaceFilter.txt
All tests I applied to the ns.zip file proved it sound; it expands
with jar, pkunzip, and INFO-ZIP unzip equally well.
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Aug 14 20:20:03 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James K. Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: repository for general DTDs (was RE: REQ: ISO 8601 Comments)
In-Reply-To:
Message-ID: <000f01bdc7b0$7af3a000$ee6118cb@caleb>
> On the more general note...is there a repository for general
> domain nonspecific DTD's for stuff like times, dates,
> directory listings, etc?
Although everything on it is domain specific at the moment, I intend my site
schema.net to be available for stuff like this too. see
http://www.schema.net/
At present it is just a catalogue of DTDs but soon it will also (subject to
the permission of the relevant DTD owners) include the actual DTDs for
retrieval.
James
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From donpark at quake.net Sat Aug 15 00:42:58 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: RDF and Microsoft
Message-ID: <000001bdc7d3$957631e0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Anyone know if Microsoft is doing anything with RDF?
I am aware that Andrew Layman is one of the editors of the RDF Schema spec
but I have not heard any other news.
Don Park
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Sat Aug 15 00:55:58 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
<199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
<35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net> <199808141300.JAA00271@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D4BFFB.96B@hiwaay.net>
David Megginson wrote:
>
> Personally, I'd like to separate the issue of global names from that
> of document composition: I do not think that namespaces are a useful
> substitute for subdocuments (inline or out-of-line) -- that issue
> still needs to be dealt with.
Yes. But when I read the specs and look at the examples on some sites,
the assumptions are easy to make. There are documents that use
the words "namespace" and "schema" in the same sentence too often to
assume otherwise.
> In other words, an element named "http://www.megginson.com/ + para" in
> one document and an element named "http://www.megginson.com/ + para"
> in a second document have the same name. Make of it what you will.
Ok. I understand that. Taken on its
face, if the URL is unique, the element strings are identical. It is
the
URL that is the unique part. It only establishes a mechanism for
making it unique. It doesn't carry the promise as a Doctype does
that at the other end of this, say, system literal is a description
which not only provides a unique local namespace, but also the frequency
and occurence of that element in an instance.
> > So what am I to assume if I see a dt: prefix that has a classID
> > in the ns attribute, and another that *appears* to point at
> > a schema of some sort?
>
> I'm not certain that I understand the question -- could you give an
> example?
Not from home. I have seen examples in which the namespace URL points
to different things; specs, schemas, and classIDs. That confused me
but
given the above, I think I understand what you are getting at. The
schema may be there but that is not the namespace mechanism.
> The WD contains much in the line of confusing and mostly-irrelevant
> philosophical musings that (I hope) will eventually be deleted -- if
> Len finds the spec confusing, I'm terrified of what will happen when
> it hits the webmasters.
Well, Len is spending his free days reading everything on the
public W3C site to work through all the specs. I don't think
one can fairly work out the system without understanding all of the
components.
Some of this relates to work, some curiosity and the markupJones,
and some because of the issues with VRML and the kudzuProperty of
markup systems. Anyway, as I wake up from some years of insulin
deprivation, maybe my grokking will improve, so I am not a fair
comparison right now and certainly have to catch up.
> With the latest namespaces WD, however, XML can no longer fairly claim
> to be simpler or more transparent than SGML -- the contextual
> dependencies built into local scoping and defaulting are in the same
> class as the contextual dependencies built into SHORTREF and OMITTAG
> (both of which XML wisely discarded), though the algorithms for
> resolving the namespaces are considerably simpler.
I trust you are right. I never had to write code to do those and
I never used those features. Yet, perhaps it is time to acknowledge
that
this project is not simply SGML On The Web: given the DOM, et al, it
is the project to overhaul the WWW products and provide a stronger
and extensible, and more importantly, standardizable system. Flying
in the faces of the vendors doesn't work. We need requirements, specs,
and conformance tests. IOW, make it clear enough and cheap enough to
do the right thing so that doing the wrong thing simply makes no
economic
sense. The best way to get them follow the standards is to make it
expensive
to do otherwise.
> It is up to the reader to decide whether the fact of this complexity
> vindicates HyTime or indicts XML.
XML won't be indicted. We will suffer for the early hype as HyTime
did.
OTOH, we have to be clear along the lines of the statements I used to
make to the IETM community: when you say interactive, you say code.
HTML spawned a community that believed it could do multimedia without
code. While that group may mainly only consist of marketing wonks
now, we have to deal with the issue that XML 1.0 is just the syntax
piece of a much broader system that taken altogether is more
complicated than SGML because it attempts to do more than SGML
attempts. HyTime may be vindicated by something most of us
already knew and XML+TheRest makes clear: open hypermedia based
on open standards is a very hard problem. Since every document
I've read on the W3C sites clearly acknowledges parentage,
there is no call for official vindication. We just have to
acknowledge the problem is hard, we learned a lot from
the previous attempts, and now we are iterating through
yet another design, older, wiser, and ready to get it done.
> The temptation to obfuscate is hard
> to resist.
Ha! We are victims of our erudition.
len
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From SimonStL at classic.msn.com Sat Aug 15 05:54:35 1998
From: SimonStL at classic.msn.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces
Message-ID:
David Megginson writes:
>With the latest namespaces WD, however, XML can no longer fairly claim
>to be simpler or more transparent than SGML -- the contextual
>dependencies built into local scoping and defaulting are in the same
>class as the contextual dependencies built into SHORTREF and OMITTAG
>(both of which XML wisely discarded), though the algorithms for
>resolving the namespaces are considerably simpler.
>
>It is up to the reader to decide whether the fact of this complexity
>vindicates HyTime or indicts XML. The temptation to obfuscate is hard
>to resist.
I suspect that from the average webmasters point of view, HyTime is irrelevant
(except as possible inspiration) - so XML is indicted, and, I fear, guilty as
charged.
There may be a way around this for the average webmaster or hacker, but not
with the current DTD structure. Another schema may be capable of handling
this both transparently and intelligibly. Hopefully the W3C will take these
issues into account for both the namespaces proposal and for whatever schema
we end up with.
More next week, after I finish this list @#X! chapter. XSchema should be
ready for final review by early next week, and I'll have time to wonder about
complexity again.
Simon St.Laurent
Dynamic HTML: A Primer / XML: A Primer / Cookies
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net Sat Aug 15 07:46:01 1998
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
<199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
<35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net> <199808141300.JAA00271@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35D52025.5168@hiwaay.net>
David Megginson wrote:
>
> I'm terrified of what will happen when
> it hits the webmasters.
>
> With the latest namespaces WD, however, XML can no longer fairly claim
> to be simpler or more transparent than SGML
Ok. But the average webmaster like the average Perl hacker like the
average web user may all be mythical beasts. We all have an idea what
they are, but in fact, other requirements drive the design. Winer says
the designers are all scientists and not technologists, and there is a
bit of truth to it. I'm a content developer so I'm just waiting for
toys.
But as a content developer, whatever the schema mechanism, the colonized
namespace
must validate or I don't buy the toys. Yes, when to use validation
is process dependent, but it IS a fundamental functionality of using
markup in production.
So, my question to the scientists is, will it validate?
len
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 13:01:29 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces (long, but optimistic)
In-Reply-To: <35D4BFFB.96B@hiwaay.net>
References: <5030300023900581000002L012*@MHS>
<35D056D9.A5AC2B48@locke.ccil.org>
<199808111745.NAA00926@unready.megginson.com>
<35D10AA8.12B0@hiwaay.net>
<199808121204.IAA00214@unready.megginson.com>
<35D25A4C.63A6@hiwaay.net>
<199808131223.IAA00210@unready.megginson.com>
<35D39257.2B70@hiwaay.net>
<199808141300.JAA00271@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980815120155.374f9506@pop3.demon.co.uk>
There seems to be a certain amount of gloom over namespaces. I think this
is because they appear to offer lots of exciting new possibilities, but
it's not clear how or whether these will work. There is a lot we can do
without namespaces, or by using them in simple manners, and I have tried to
separate out some of the parts of the confusion... Personally I remain very
optimistic.
At 17:53 14/08/98 -0500, len bullard wrote:
[...]
>
>HTML spawned a community that believed it could do multimedia without
>code. While that group may mainly only consist of marketing wonks
>now, we have to deal with the issue that XML 1.0 is just the syntax
>piece of a much broader system that taken altogether is more
>complicated than SGML because it attempts to do more than SGML
>attempts.
Len has put this precisely and accurately. The point is that in principle
XML holds out the opportunity to combine information components from
multiple sources. Even more, it suggests that we may be able to do this
without specific coding for each type of component. Put another way, the
dream is that an XML-unaware person (client) can receive a complex
multicomponent document and it will automatically 'do what is required'
without effort on the client's part. That is a year or two away at least,
but many of us are pointing in that direction. It's enormously ambitious
and will change the human race. What is described here is more modest.
We have to address lesser dreams at present. The current perceived problem
is, I think, that the current namespace draft might give the impression
that the dream is realisable today. We all know it will require software to
make it work but above all it will require a change in the way that we
think communally. [An analogy is e-mail - how long has it taken to become
universal? How many directors still get their secretaries to type up their
e-mail?]
I suspect that implementing the whole of the namespace draft - with its
links into the other required components (RDF, XSL, XLL, XPointer, DOM,
DCD) is going to take a considerable time to work through. Since these are
parallel activities it's not easy (or possibly desirable) to plan
everything to the last nut and bolt. I am confident that - as with HTML -
locally optimal solutions for important problems will be found. Some will
be elegant, some will be kludgy. Many will depend on communally available
software. The more of this we can stimulate here, the more experiments can
be tried.
I'll like to suggest a spectrum of activities where prefixes and possibly
namespaces should be quite tractable.
I make it clear that I am in favour of XML validation in the right
circumstances. As evidence of commitment I have authored an XML DTD for
terminology (VHG , http://www.vhg.org.uk) and I use it to validate
documents. Validation matters since I'm working on an industrial strength
project with it. Essentially the DTD functions as a contract, especially
where components have to be handed over, or signed off. I'll try to show
how it may incorporate namespaces.
STAGE 1
When I started namespaces were still under wraps so early versions looked
like:
XMLThe world's number one markup language
and a number of glossaries - which contained only VHG element types - were
created. They are validatable satisfactorily, can be updated and continue
to be validatable.
These glossaries can be used in standalone mode (e.g. for reference or
bedtime reading). So the full power of parsers, stylesheets, JUMBO, etc.
can be unleased on them *now*. We should not underestimate the importance
of well-crafted, standalone validatable monoDTD XML documents.
The next step was that the glossaries might contain information from other
DTDs, such as HTML for hypertext, or molecules. There are two possibilities:
- planned and regulated
- unplanned and unregulated
By planned and regulated I mean that every instance contains a precisely
known set of elementTypes from 2 (or more) DTDs in known contexts. It would
therefore be possible to write
STAGE 2
XML
The world's number one markup
metalanguage
where
, are from the HTML DTD (say 2.0), or IBTWSH. Since there is no
tag collision between VHG and HTML (deliberate!) we don't have a problem.
We can construct a content model for which is validatable.
Now, suppose I have a tag collision between VHG and HTML I can use prefixed
elementNames. e.g.
STAGE 3
XMLThe world's number one markup
language
Note - I don't (think) I need to have any namespace declarations yet, do I?
This is well-formed, validatable XML. The content models include:
STAGE 4
Now, suppose I want to include molecules in . [Example:
I have the following possibilities:
- think of all possible content, hardcode it into the DTD and ban anything
else until the next revision.
- revise the DTD every time I want to include a new type.
- use a content model of ANY
- use XLink to link to the actual information, e.g.:
where VHG:Link is a cunning pointer to another document and includes the
attributes show="embed" actuate="auto"
Although we have prefixed names we still haven't used namespaces.
Now, suppose someone else wishes to use VHG terminology in their own
document. They want to write something like:
STAGE 5
Please send five hundred
widgetA specification for part of a graphics
screenBeer widgetwidgetA gasification apparatus in a beer
canScreen widget
If the creator of this document wants it to be validatable (I shall use
'validatable' as 'something more than ANY') they have to think where the
VHG stuff is going to occur in the document. If the VHG stuff matters (and
it probably does since its role is to make precise identification) then
this effort has to be taken. XLink remains an alternative throughout:
STAGE5a
Please send five hundred
widgetA specification for part of a graphics
screenBeer widgetwidgetA gasification apparatus in a beer
canScreen widget
None of this has required anything other than standard XML1.0. The problem
only surfaces when people start mixing material in which
- there will be tag collisions
- they want the namespaces to mean something.
Tag collisions are unavoidable (I first invented 'XML' as an SGML
application before the current XML).
Suppose Vanity Homes and Gardens wishes to produce a catalog. And suppose
that they already use other DTDs. And because of this they have already
produced their own DTD as a prefixed one, e.g.
carrotartichoke
and, because people don't know what sort of artichoke it is, they use a
glossary:
STAGE 6
carrotartichokeJerusalem artichokeA delicious tuber which causes
flatulenceglobe artichokeglobe artichokeA delicious thistle-like
plantJerusalem artichoke
Note that this is perfectly OK, since there are (coincidentally) no tag
collisions between the two DTDs. It may not be pretty, but it's perfectly OK.
None of this has required namespaces.
STAGE7
If there *is* a tag collision, then one of the DTDs has to yield its
prefix. An example might be:
carrotartichokeJerusalem artichokeA delicious tuber which causes
flatulenceglobe artichokeglobe artichokeA delicious thistle-like
plantJerusalem artichoke
This is a syntactic problem and requires tools. The tools have to do the
following:
- recognise the names from each DTD in a document and convert them
- recognise the same names in the DTD and convert them in precisely the
same manner
We still don't need namespaces at this stage, just unique names. But we do
need the tools. And these tools may have to convert DTDs quite often and
keep track of which ones are used.
The problems ONLY arise when we start trying to put some semantics/meaning
on the names. Since we don't have much experience at this for unqualified
names it's not surprising we find it hard. The main namespace problems
therefore are:
(a) - what does FOO mean? (in and FOO="baz")
(b) - can I attach meaning through algorithms (schemas, stylesheets, Java)
(c) - can I identify the same FOO in different documents even if it has
different prefixes?
Namespaces ONLY address the third concern. This may not even be important
if (a) and (b) are not solved.
[There is another aspect to namespaces - scoping. IMO this is simply a
minimisation procedure. Personally I think it's unnecessary and dangerous
and confusing and opens up the dream too early. I would recommend that we
include all prefixes explicitly to avoid confusion. This is a syntactic
concern which can be dealt with at parser or SAX level and should be kept
as far away from the application programmer as possible. I have had my say
repeatedly - please don't overcomplicate. We don't *have* to use the
complex bits of XML or namespaces.]
There is a real problem with multiDTD documents. If we have a document
which reasonably includes:
- DC
- RDF
- DCD
- XSL
- XLL
- HTML/IBTWSH
- Application1
- Application2
I cannot see, with the best will we have, how we can possibly build a DTD
that can validate this (unless it's a VERY formal document - legal, patent,
safety, etc.) It's an n-squared problem. So I don't accept that 'namespaces
have broken validation' but rather that complex monolithic XML documents
are inherently unvalidatable except for expensive vital 'in-house'
requirements. I think that XLink provides a solution, but only if we are
happy with passing bundles of documents over the WWW with the belief that
the integrity of the bundle survives. We haven't cracked that yet, have we :-)
Now it happens that I also want to solve (a) and (b) :-). I can't use
namespaces for this, because they deliberately don't solve it. My best hope
is XSchema (or RDF) which allows me to define - hopefully along with lots
of other people - ways of attaching meaning.
My current approach is then something like:
carrotartichokeJerusalem artichokeA delicious tuber which causes
flatulenceglobe artichokeglobe artichokeA delicious thistle-like
plantJerusalem artichoke
This breaks the namespace problem into its components. It says that certain
names (VHG: and possibly some scoped attributes - I'm not yet sure) are
mapped onto the *STRING* "http://vhg.org.uk". It I used a different prefix
(e.g. VirtualHG) in another document I could still relate them through the
ns URI.
The jumbo:namespace PI can be neglected. For those with a JUMBO browser and
jumbo.vhg.*.class it can add semantic enhancement - and I'll show this at
Montreal. But there can be other ways of associating semantics with the
*STRING* "http://vhg.org.uk" - stylesheets, other classes, etc. So it is a
semantic handle onto which anyone can map anything they like. The challenge
is whether we can come up with communal portable tools for doing that
easily and avoiding babelisation.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From donpark at quake.net Sat Aug 15 17:30:22 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces (long, but optimistic)
Message-ID: <002401bdc860$523802e0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Perhaps it would be helpful for the XML developer community if we came up
with a list of problematic or controversial aspects of the new Namespace
proposal. The list differs from the spec in that it details the benefits
and problems of each namespace features. Such a list can be used to assess
the impact of the new namespace proposal on one's work.
Don
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 15 17:55:31 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:00 2004
Subject: More on Namespaces (long, but optimistic)
In-Reply-To: <002401bdc860$523802e0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980815165537.08cfb764@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 08:20 15/08/98 -0700, Don Park wrote:
>Perhaps it would be helpful for the XML developer community if we came up
>with a list of problematic or controversial aspects of the new Namespace
>proposal. The list differs from the spec in that it details the benefits
>and problems of each namespace features. Such a list can be used to assess
>the impact of the new namespace proposal on one's work.
Sounds a useful suggestion. I think it would be particularly useful if it
highlighted those parts of the spec which could be implemented/discussed
independently of each other (if this is the case).
To extract things out of my previous message I'd highlight:
- the mechanics of changing prefixes in documents with name collisions
(including verifying uniqueness of prefixes
- the mechanics of changing prefixes in DTDs when confronted with a given
document instance
- a beginner's guide to scoping. What it is meant to do. This should
include clear examples of scoped documents, their interpretation and their
fully expanded form. Maybe JohnCowan's NamespaceFilter will do the latter
bit. Personally I work best from examples.
Since DonP made the suggestion I suggest that replies are posted to XML-DEV
but that DonP collates and summarises them...
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Sun Aug 16 17:26:06 1998
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:01