From RKoehler at qpass.com Tue Dec 1 00:47:41 1998 From: RKoehler at qpass.com (Rich Koehler) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: MSXML in C++ and large files Message-ID: I have made use of the MSXML parser in C++. (From ie4) It appears that it does not release memory after parsing files that are about 10 MB or larger. Has anyone identified the source of this problem? Can anyone confirm this for me? Rich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue Dec 1 03:52:04 1998 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Non-validating parser behavior References: <199811302149.QAA30823@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <36635E7F.289B1C97@jclark.com> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > > As has been discussed on this list previously (see > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9808/0019.html), non-validating > parsers are not required to load external DTD information (as discussed in > section 4.4.3 and elsewhere in the spec.) This was done, supposedly, to make > it easier to display information gathered from the Web without making the user > wait for external resources to be fetched before display or processing could > begin. > > Are there any non-validating parsers that actually behave this way? Yes, expat never reads external DTD information (external DTD subsets or external parameter references). James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Tue Dec 1 06:09:48 1998 From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: XML Europe proposal deadline this Friday Message-ID: <199812010605.WAA05551@boethius.eng.sun.com> The folks at GCA -- the XML/SGML association -- have asked me to remind everyone that this Friday, December 4, is the last day for the submission of proposals for papers and tutorials to be presented at XML Europe '99, which will be held April 26-30 in Granada, Spain. For details, see http://www.gca.org/conf/euro99/participation.htm Jon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Tue Dec 1 09:41:08 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard Message-ID: <003c01be1d0e$0ac8ec00$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> >But: is this data being generated by/for programs, or people? People >have different priorities than programs. I think we should make the assumption that if the data is intended for people, there will be a browser to help them read it. In my view, localisation is a task that belongs in the browser. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anderst at toolsmiths.se Tue Dec 1 10:05:57 1998 From: anderst at toolsmiths.se (Anders W. Tell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard References: <006501be1c6a$98e52de0$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> <13922.44021.68599.496798@localhost.localdomain> <36631EDE.D152C6E7@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <3663BFD0.B34057D6@toolsmiths.se> David Brownell wrote: > > But: is this data being generated by/for programs, or people? People > have different priorities than programs. Then there is also the mixed UseCase with indexed webpages aimed for end-user consumption. Here it might be useful to include "data islands" with non visual "indexing" information such as keywords, links etc. /Anders -- /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ / Financial Toolsmiths AB / / Anders W. Tell / /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Dec 1 11:49:44 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard In-Reply-To: "Anders W. Tell"'s message of "Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:35:31 +0100" References: <006501be1c6a$98e52de0$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> <13922.44021.68599.496798@localhost.localdomain> <3662BB43.3B36DFF3@toolsmiths.se> Message-ID: "Anders W. Tell" writes: >> There's not a general-purpose, locale-independent way of storing it. > Why not? Actually, there is. I believe IEEE 754 describes one. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to use it in XML documents. > Its up to the creator and the user of XML information to agree on the > interpretation. In my ears, it sounds like a designer of an XML system should be able to define what elements are allowed to contain, as well as how applications deal with that content. > One Design Pattern that I stongly support is the separation of Data > and its Presentation I'm afraid I'm not quite sure what that means. Could I ask you to elaborate? > and in the above example its the presentation that is sent, How can you *not* send presentation? And again, how do you know that e.g. 4.2, a number binary representations of reals only approximate, isn't the actual value? > which is OK if the user is a person but it the user an > another computer its much better to send the actual data (with > formatting instructions if needed) So you *do* want to embed IEEE floats in what used to be nice, readable and simpe-to-use text documents? ???? I have a feeling I must be serverely misunderstanding something, since this obviously is less desirable than 4.5 > This is especially important in business to business communication > that the interpretation of information is not uneccessary complex. While I agree on this, I don't see why you think "4.5" is complex, compared to a binary format. It is readable, it is trivial and unambigous to read for humans *and* for computers, once the conventions - which would be embedded in the DTD - are agreed upon. > Yes but having a *standard* data representation is making life easier for > everybody. I fail to see how: > => Less complexity Parser would need to know about all the types that are thrown around, they would need to know how to read them in any language and any character set, and they would need to know how to represent them in any programming language. They would need to know how to deal with byte ordering, arbitrary hardware limitations and quaint binary formats like float representation. As far as I can see, nobody have suggested how this is to be worked around or overcome. > => smaller application logic You require the application to understand all kinds of types, instead of just the ones relevant for the document being parsed. > => Faster parsing, validation Why faster with a lot of extra baggage? I got the impression XML parsing is fast right now, because parsers generally don't have to keep track of all kinds of crud inside elements and attributes, they just accept whatever's there and breeze along. I get the feeling you're looking for CORBA, not XML. > Yes, but this applies only to Presentation and not Data. > In most instances a number is a number is a number... Not on a binary level, and not on any kind of hardware or in any kind of programming language. Most definitely not. I realize I don't understand all the issues involved, which I suppose is why I find the need for XML data types so hard to grasp. But I'm very worried about what used to be a very simple (to understand and to program for!) standard evolve into terminal featuritis that never get completely implemented. ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Dec 1 13:13:49 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: XML and embedded compound data types (was "Why XML data typin is hard") In-Reply-To: John Cowan's message of "Mon, 30 Nov 1998 13:18:14 -0500" References: <004601be1c84$14d6e100$160016c0@jfinity1> <3662E166.BA58E220@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: John Cowan writes: > > > > > > ... > 1998-04-05T15:22:23.24 > the application would receive the SAX or DOM equivalent of: > 19980405 I like this, and I guess it's revealing that I didn't know you could do things like that. But who would I be to let lack of experience and knowledge be inhibiting factors? :-) However, this doesn't begin to touch all the issues adressed previously in the discussion, in particular it does not let the parser catch illegal content in s (like e.g. regexp constraints could), nor does it solve locale problems (which I get the impression the data type advocates want to) It's still a neat trick, though. ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue Dec 1 13:20:36 1998 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Default Namespace should be clearly documented ... References: <199811301928.LAA06695@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <3663ED84.6A452597@mecomnet.de> why doesn't one just use a processing instruction for this? Bryan Cooper wrote: > > ... > In the DTD, I'd like to see this type of syntax: > > < !EVENT push_new_context_for_namespace_example xnmls="different_ns" > TYPE="push"/> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Dec 1 13:22:59 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard In-Reply-To: 's message of "Mon, 30 Nov 1998 16:29:09 -0500 (EST)" References: <3.0.32.19981130105028.00bb1a60@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <13923.3539.599766.829514@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: writes: > Liam R. E. Quin writes: > > > david@megginson.com wrote: > [...] > > > Warning: sample.xml line 18 column 12: Cannot validate constraint > > > "float" for unsupported language "ar" (trying default > > > locale en-CA). Hum, so what really was thousand (1,000), gets parsed as one, since my default is a European locale. > > Maybe what you really need is > > ... > > instead? > That's almost exactly the markup that I was imagining would generate > the warning, except that I'd use a different namespace for the lexical > constraint attribute (no need to overload the magic "xml" namespace). Perhaps somebody could explain to me the rationale of including the xml:type attribute with the element, instead of in the element *declaration* (in the DTD). To me, this sounds as if another type would make as much sense, say a date or integer, or what have you. In my imagination, that would typcially get messy and cause the run time errors we want to avoid, so I assume either there's an additional restriction in the DTD, or there's some fundamental reason I overlook. Enlightenment, please? ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From coopercl at sch.ge.com Tue Dec 1 14:29:10 1998 From: coopercl at sch.ge.com (Clark Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Non-validating parser behavior Message-ID: <199812011421.JAA29032@dso052.sch.ge.com> Simon St.Laurent (simonstl@simonstl.com) wrote: > Are there any non-validating parsers that actually behave this way? Lark and > Aelfred have both fetched external DTD subsets without a question, and I > haven't noticed anything to suggest otherwise in the non-validating parsers > I've looked at so far. Then you've not looked at any of the parsers built on James Clark's expat library, for example the perl module XML::Parser. Expat does not read an external DTD. -- Clark Cooper Logic Technology Inc. cccooper@ltionline.com (518) 385-8380 650 Franklin St., Suite 304 coopercl@sch.ge.com Schenectady, NY 12305 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Dec 1 15:03:25 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Non-validating parser behavior In-Reply-To: <199812011421.JAA29032@dso052.sch.ge.com> Message-ID: <199812011502.KAA08649@hesketh.net> At 09:21 AM 12/1/98 -0500, Clark Cooper wrote: > >Simon St.Laurent (simonstl@simonstl.com) wrote: >> Are there any non-validating parsers that actually behave this way? Lark and >> Aelfred have both fetched external DTD subsets without a question, and I >> haven't noticed anything to suggest otherwise in the non-validating parsers >> I've looked at so far. > >Then you've not looked at any of the parsers built on James Clark's >expat library, for example the perl module XML::Parser. Expat does not >read an external DTD. Well, actually, I knew there was a reason I was avoiding using Expat in my own work, and I knew there was a parser that behaved this way, but somehow I didn't remember to put them together. In any case, Expat provides an _excellent_ example of a widely-used and well-respected parser that has this behavior, which gives me plenty to write about. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at arbortext.com Tue Dec 1 15:14:11 1998 From: paul at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Publication of W3C XML Fragment WG Requirements document Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981201091136.00c68604@pophost.arbortext.com> Following the process being developed in the W3C XML Activity, the XML Fragment Working Group has just published its Requirements document as a publicly accessible W3C Note [1]. W3C working groups and recognized liaison groups are invited to submit comments to the mailing list given in the document. I am sending this notice of publication to xml-dev to advise interested parties on this mailing list about the publication of this document so that more people will be aware of our proposed work. Both the document and the mailing list to which comments are sent are public, and non-W3C members can submit comments. While I encourage thoughful and concise comments from members of xml-dev, please note that it is not feasible for all such comments to be explicitly acknowledged by the working group. Also, please be sure to read the documents and consider our scope before making comments about what "would be nice." (We purposely defined a somewhat limited scope for our current work.) The requirements document is a living document, and the WG is responsible for maintaining it in light of comments and further input it receives per the XML Activity process. For about a month after its publication, the WG will plan to process comments at its discretion, but on January 8, the WG will specifically plan to do a "comment checkpoint" to address comments received up to that point and modify the document as appropriate. All comments from W3C working groups and from recognized liaison groups must be considered at each checkpoint, but requests for changes and additions after the first checkpoint carry decreasing weight as the work continues. In particular, basic design decisions should be reconsidered only when grave and previously unrecognized flaws are uncovered. Requests for enhancement should typically be deferred for later versions of the specification under development unless the enhancement is uncontroversial and its incorporation would not materially delay production of the specification. Paul Grosso XML Fragment WG Chair [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-XML-FRAG-REQ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From clovett at microsoft.com Tue Dec 1 17:06:46 1998 From: clovett at microsoft.com (Chris Lovett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C08744170@RED-MSG-56> I was looking at the Shakespeare samples (shakespeare.1.10.xml) on http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/sun-info/xml/eg/ and noticed that the file play.dtd contains the tag which causes IE 5 to generate the error: Error while parsing entity 'amp'. Unexpected end of file. Line 1, Position 1. The reason for this is that IE5 resolves numeric entities immediately, leaving the entity with the value "&" then it parses this to build an EntityReference DOM Node - which then results in the parse error. According to the XML spec, the entity should be written as " . See http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-predefined-ent. This works fine in IE5. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heiko.grussbach at crpht.lu Tue Dec 1 17:10:50 1998 From: heiko.grussbach at crpht.lu (heiko.grussbach@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:50 2004 Subject: DTD styling Message-ID: Hi, since I'm no expert with XML, this may be an easy one, but still... I have the need to provide an editor for a large range of documents. The documents are highly structured, but there are many different forms. I assume, for each form, one would need to write something like a DTD. This is OK, but I need to be able to edit these documents and I don't want to write an editor for each DTD or write an Editor that is generic enough to deal with any DTD I expect. There are tools for creating an editor from a DTD (like the EditorMaker from IBM). But since the DTD does not contain any styling, such a tool does not know, how I want the Editor to look like. I.e. the result of the EditorMaker is always some generic Editor for an XML-document. This is somehow similar to having an XML document with a predefined styling. What I would like to have is the possibility to add styling to the DTD so that a tool like EditorMaker would create an editor that is more customized to the styling I want. For example I could define a styling that would map from the DTD to Java GUI-classes like CheckBox, Menu or ListBox and so on. Then, running something like the EditorMaker would create the classes for a GUI with the styling that I defined. Any comments, suggestions etc are highly appreciated... Regards Heiko Grussbach Heiko.Grussbach@crpht.lu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Dec 1 17:30:08 1998 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: In-Reply-To: Chris Lovett's message of Tue, 1 Dec 1998 09:05:14 -0800 Message-ID: <199812011728.RAA19246@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > I was looking at the Shakespeare samples (shakespeare.1.10.xml) on > http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/sun-info/xml/eg/ and noticed that the file > play.dtd contains the tag This is not entirely surprising, since that file is dated 31 Jan 98, and the XML draft current at that time specified the declaration above! IE 5 appears to be within its rights not to detect the error (in the declaration, not the use, of the entity). Section 4.6 says that amp "must" be declared as "&#38;", and violation of "must" is an "error" which "may" be detected. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue Dec 1 19:02:21 1998 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard (was Re: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals?) Message-ID: <872566CD.006862F3.00@us.ibm.com> "I'm not suggesting that a set of simple XML data-typing constraints cannot be helpful -- if you're building a database only of Norwegian city names, you know that you don't have to deal with Han or Kanji (unless, of course, you do such a good job that you decide to commercialise your system) -- but coming up with data-type constraints that both useful and generalised enough for all XML users across all of the major Locales and all of the Unicode character repetoire is *very* difficult." The constraint proposal I posted a while back deals with some of these issues, partly by punting and allowing constraint checking to be done by way of installable 'constraint bundles'. Shipping an app with these types of localization issues would be similar to writing any such app. If you localize your constraint bundle code, then the constraint checking is localized. Personally though I separated data typing from constraint checking, for a number of reasons, but the most important is that tying them together would have required a kind of 'type equivilence' scheme to avoid having lots of redundant code. If the datatype is "FooBar" but its really just an int with range limitations, I didn't want to have to either create a new FooBar constraint type when there is already a range checked int constraint out there, or have the typing system have to know that FooBar is really an int and figure out by itself what to do. But, other than those issues, if the constraint mechanism can be pluggable (though with a core set of fundamental ones that all parsers implement intrinsically and which are not affected by localization), I think its not unreasonable to do. But the issue is that then the XML data is tied to a particular set of classes which implement the constraint checking. For custom apps, that's probably fine. But if you want to distribute the XML data widely, then there has to be a mechanism by which constraint code comes along with it. Since parsers can be written in many languages, that certainly imposes some serious concerns. However, if we are really serious about it, that is not to say that there cannot be sets of registered constraint bundles whose semantics are well defined, and which can be implemented in many languages. If these bundles were say given a globally unique hash id or unique URL for instance, then an XML schema could indicate which registered constraint bundles it depends upon and load them if local implementations are available or ping the user to get them if required. Actually the URL would be better since my constraint proposal already used URLs, relative to namespaces, to locate the loaded bundle that handles a particular constraint. And the same mechanism could be used locally within a particular organization to deal with bundles registered in their own world, but not to any outside registration body. Or, there could be more informal registration mechanisms as well, for those folks who feel comfortable with that. So it would be nicely extensible without having an act of God. If the W3C just came up with official locale names in XML syntax, then of course we could also embed into the constraint bundles which locale's they can reasonably deal with so that the constraint bundle lookup and load mechanism can do a 'best effort' check to find one that most closely matches the user's current locale and which implements the registered bundle. This is all obviously a big step to take, but relative to the complexity of the problem its not so bad I don't think. Am I missing something here? Why does this suck and I don't know it? 8-) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bryan.cooper at veritas.com Tue Dec 1 19:04:54 1998 From: bryan.cooper at veritas.com (Bryan Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Default Namespace should be clearly documented ... In-Reply-To: <3663ED84.6A452597@mecomnet.de> References: <199811301928.LAA06695@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <199812011904.LAA11584@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> One problem with PI is that there is no encapsulation, so the parser wouldn't know when to pop the namespace stack. If PI were expanded to include any kind of PI encapsulation, then we'd still need some clear syntax directly to XML to support the push of the default namespace, yes? That is, can we declare an ENTITY that contains a PI? That would allow encapsulation, but I don't think this is supported currently. My reading of PI is that it is an alternative syntax around ENTITY and directly to an application. I don't see how to include PI within an ENTITY. In any case, the ENTITY would need to have a pop default namespace stack PI at the end or you would need a second PI at the end, which defeats the purpose of working with the parser. Is there a way to do that currently? I don't think so. Anyone else? I think we need to look at enhancing PI syntax into the DTD if we don't want a or other new DTD syntax. Or am I just rambling here? At 02:22 PM 12/1/98 +0100, you wrote: >why doesn't one just use a processing instruction for this? > >Bryan Cooper wrote: >> >> ... >> In the DTD, I'd like to see this type of syntax: >> >> < !EVENT push_new_context_for_namespace_example xnmls="different_ns" >> TYPE="push"/> >> > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > ...bryan F. Bryan Cooper 707 823 7324 VERITAS Software 707 321 3301 mobile Bryan.Cooper@veritas.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Tue Dec 1 19:36:35 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? Message-ID: Ketil Z Malde wrote: > What could be useful and relatively simple, is a restriction > of the *form* of the data, e.g. forcing the > to contain only letters and start with a capital, or LC > subjects to be two upper case letters (if that's what they are). > Phone numbers, dates, sort keys, there are many cases where it > would be helpful to have the parser catch these things, I think. I was thinking along similar lines. I've been adding something like this to my XML documents: NY So the parser can verify that the CDATA matches the regular expression. Works OK for content, but I don't see how I can add this meta-meta-data for attributes. That is to say, how can I tell the parser that the 'name' attribute value for the 'prop' entity must be of the form "[a-zA-Z_][0-9a-zA-Z_]*"? Of course this also brings up the murky waters of grep syntax, which I've been avoiding. Joel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Tue Dec 1 20:18:46 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard Message-ID: G. Ken Holman wrote: > In Canada, valid expressions of currency numbers are $1.47 or > 1,47$ based on where you are. I was under the impression that there was some standard patterns/parsers for this stuff being designed. So: 1.5 Gets parsed as if it was specified as: 1.5 (No offense intended to those in French Canada that want to make it their own country.) > I gather from Michael S-McQ in a presentation in Chicago that > the regular expression for a valid date (taking into account > days of the month and leap years) is 4801 characters long. Probably an interesting effort, what we used to call a "weekend and a case of beer" project. I'm sure that another notation could be found that would reduce this significantly, roll a little grep and JavaScript together or something :-). This discussion is important to me because my application to test protocol conformance needs to suck in an XML description of an "implementation under test" and translate the '1.5' into an IEEE float that will appear on a wire. My app will need at least some guidence on accepting '1,5' and/or '1.5' and/or the Japanese Unicode string that means the same thing. The good news for me is that I really only need to deal with SQL data types. Joel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Tue Dec 1 21:01:02 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard Message-ID: Ketil Z Malde wrote: > Alternatively, you could force people to use "YYYY-MM-DD" by > forcing conformance to a regular expression, and have your > applications only have to deal with that. It may not be politicaly correct, and depending on the context might even come across as ethnocentric, but IMHO that's not a bad thing. > And, I think it's pretty obvious that there are a lot of very > complex data types out there. What's the format for version > numbers, for instance? Or license plates? Are you ready to > come up with an xml:type that covers all cases? A standards process doesn't need to cover all the cases, all it has to do is come up with a consensus on how the basics should be covered, and assuming the membership keeps its collective head above water, how it should be extended. > Some may want to build all of this into a type system that > XML parsers need to handle... I don't think a type 'system' is necessary, but a way of mapping patterns and types together is useful enough for lots of applications to be standardized. Let's say you give me a bunch of XML files which is are marked-up email messages, and I would like to find out which ones are at least a week old. It sure would be nice to know that the Tue, 1 Dec 1998 02:00:09 +0000 contents you provided me have some standard form. > ...with mappings to the various programming languages and > machine architectures that may or may not support that type > natively. No, not specific to a language mapping, that belongs in some API or SAX reference not in XML. Supporting grep content pattern matching doesn't seem like it would be any more difficult than namespaces, kinda like... dataPattern ::= 'xml:grep' Eq Pattern [ VC : Matches Pattern ] Pattern ::= (to be defined) Validity Constraint : Matches Pattern If the 'xml:grep' attribute has been provided then the element contents must match the pattern. Besides, I don't know of any machine architecture that 'knows' about anything 'natively' other than a bunch of one's and zero's :-). Joel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ralph at fsc.fujitsu.com Tue Dec 1 21:43:47 1998 From: ralph at fsc.fujitsu.com (Ralph Ferris) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981201134346.00a618c0@pophost.fsc.fujitsu.com> All, In order to promote wide discussion of XLink/XPointer development issues, we are launching a new mailing list dedicated to these subjects. This comes after discussion with various people, following some messages that were posted on this (the XML-Dev) list, that this would be a useful thing to do. To subscribe, send a message to: majordomo@fsc.fujitsu.com In the body of the message put: subscribe xlxp-dev Best regards, Ralph E. Ferris Fujitsu Software Corporation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From leonardr at Adobe.COM Tue Dec 1 22:09:15 1998 From: leonardr at Adobe.COM (Leonard Rosenthol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: xml:grep (was Re: Why XML data typing is hard) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At 4:00 PM -0500 12/1/98, Joel Bender wrote: > Supporting grep content pattern matching doesn't > seem like it would be any more difficult than namespaces, kinda like... In order to support the WORLD WIDE web properly - it's a MUCH harder problem, especially when dealing with Unicode (which is the default for XML data). See Techinical Report 18 by the Unicode Consortium, "Unicode Regular Expression Guidelines" at . Leonard ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Leonard Rosenthol Designated Free Electron (612) 766-4718 (Minn) Adobe Systems Incorporated (215) 233-5270 (Philly) PGP Fingerprint: 8CC9 8878 921E C627 0BC1 15BB FC19 64A9 0016 1397 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue Dec 1 22:09:27 1998 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? Message-ID: <872566CD.00797BD3.00@us.ibm.com> "IMHO the purpose of ID/IDREF is to express non-hierarchical data using hierarchical notation. Appropriate use of ID and IDREF attributes allows the representation of any directed graph, whether acyclic or cyclic." How can you represent a strictly acyclic graph using ID/IDREF? For instance, if you have an employee list, and every employee has an ID attribute which is his/her employee number and an IDREF attribute which refers to his/her manager, what do you do when you reach Le Gran Fromage (sp?)? This person has no manager, but the parser will consider it an error if his/her manager field does not refer to someone else's employee id. Does not that not imply the insertion of at least a single bogus cycle in the data just to make the parser happy? Would an application processing this file otherwise have to try to gleen that the error occured because of this known problem and not because of some other, real, problem? Not trying to be accusatory or anything. I just wonder how that is supposed to work. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ffarahbo at informix.com Tue Dec 1 23:36:35 1998 From: ffarahbo at informix.com (Farzad Farahbod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <199812012335.PAA13663@infoak.oak.informix.com> Hi, I was wondering if anybody has heard of a DTD-to-Database schema mapping tool? Thanks FF xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Wed Dec 2 00:36:09 1998 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981201163430.00bd2d40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:43 PM 12/1/98 -0500, Ralph Ferris wrote: >In order to promote wide discussion of XLink/XPointer development issues, >we are launching a new mailing list dedicated to these subjects. This comes >after discussion with various people, following some messages that were >posted on this (the XML-Dev) list, that this would be a useful thing to do. For the record, I disagree with moving XLink/Xpointer away from this mailing list. My capacity to watch lists is about maxed out, and the traffic here is bearable (for now). -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Dec 2 03:16:43 1998 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? Message-ID: <005801be1a90$386357c0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> -----Original Message----- From: roddey@us.ibm.com >How can you represent a strictly acyclic graph using ID/IDREF? For >instance, if you have an employee list, and every employee has an ID >attribute which is his/her employee number and an IDREF attribute which >refers to his/her manager, what do you do when you reach Le Gran Fromage >(sp?)? This person has no manager, but the parser will consider it an error >if his/her manager field does not refer to someone else's employee id. You could just make the IDREF attribute #IMPLIED: James -- James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com Associate Researcher, Electronic Commerce Network Curtin University of Technology, Perth, Western Australia Maintainer of : www.xmlinfo.com, www.xmlsoftware.com and www.schema.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From db at Eng.Sun.COM Wed Dec 2 05:18:42 1998 From: db at Eng.Sun.COM (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Sun's XML Classes References: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFA3@ris3.robco-inc.com> Message-ID: <3664CD61.D97AFF2C@Eng.Sun.COM> Rob Williams wrote: > > What do you mean by helper methods? You mean taking Jack's suggestion and > just writing a little method that is going to wrap the newline and post the > field value all in one fell swoop? That does look good; I mainly wanted to > see what seasoned vets of this stuff were doing before I started rewriting. Yes -- so you make one call to the method that does those several things, rather than several calls to primitive methods. "Helper Subroutines" (or methods, or macros, or what have you) are a good idiom to use whenever you find yourself repeating code. - Dave p.s. Since at least some of that code was there to deal with an issue much like prettyprinting, try grabbing the new release of the library: http://java.sun.com/jdc/earlyAccess/xml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From db at Eng.Sun.COM Wed Dec 2 05:31:32 1998 From: db at Eng.Sun.COM (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: References: <199812011728.RAA19246@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3664D02C.F92BE4D3@Eng.Sun.COM> Richard Tobin wrote: > > > I was looking at the Shakespeare samples (shakespeare.1.10.xml) on > > http://sunsite.unc.edu/pub/sun-info/xml/eg/ and noticed that the file > > play.dtd contains the tag > > This is not entirely surprising, since that file is dated 31 Jan 98, > and the XML draft current at that time specified the declaration above! > > IE 5 appears to be within its rights not to detect the error (in the > declaration, not the use, of the entity). Section 4.6 says that amp > "must" be declared as "&#38;", and violation of "must" is an "error" > which "may" be detected. This is one of those areas where the XML spec gives too much (IMHO) leeway in terms of error reporting. While I think IE5 is doing a legal thing here, there's not much reason not to fully recover from this error in all cases, since "amp" is predefined and the original definition trumps the others. Most other parsers in fact adopt a rather different legal way to handle this error: ignore it totally! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Wed Dec 2 07:53:01 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:51 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? In-Reply-To: Joel Bender's message of "Tue, 1 Dec 1998 14:36:16 -0500" References: Message-ID: Joel Bender writes: > I was thinking along similar lines. I've been adding something like this > to my XML documents: > NY It's a neat way of doing it, since checking is optional and transparent to non-checking applications. > So the parser can verify that the CDATA matches the regular expression. > Works OK for content, but I don't see how I can add this meta-meta-data for > attributes. The dividing line between attributes and elements is a fine one, anyway. Is it a real restriction to have the user embed constrained information content in elements and not attributes? E.g. state or perhaps rather NY > That is to say, how can I tell the parser that the 'name' > attribute value for the 'prop' entity must be of the form > "[a-zA-Z_][0-9a-zA-Z_]*"? Not to mention the form of the xml:regexp attribute, eh? :-) Actually, that *is* a problem, since as a DTD designer, I want to express the lexical data formats my applications handle, I wouldn't want to leave this to document authors, who probably know more about technical writing, and less about the technical limitations of the application software. By the way, you *can* check attributes by doing or something, can't you? > Of course this also brings up the murky waters of grep syntax, which I've > been avoiding. Well, looking back, I realize I consider regular expressions a simple solution. Looking further back, I realize that this is because of a long and shady past of juggling Unix shell scripts. On the other hand, regular expressions are very powerful, and you don't really need to know all the ins and outs to write simple ones, like "[A-Z]" or "(one|two|three)". And many of the special characters are used in DTDs already (+*?). ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Wed Dec 2 08:09:24 1998 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.1.19981202190354.00b9fca0@steptwo.com.au> At 18:48 2/12/1998 , you wrote: | Joel Bender writes: | | > I was thinking along similar lines. I've been adding something like this | > to my XML documents: | | > NY | | It's a neat way of doing it, since checking is optional and | transparent to non-checking applications. Wouldn't this be better placed in a DTD? By adding a fixed, pre-set attribute with the regexp to element definitions in the DTD, you can enforce consistency. Otherwise, can't the user just choose to use this or not, on an individual, ad-hoc basis? If so, what are we enforcing? All that being said, I am of the belief that all of this should be placed in application code. XML isn't a solution to any problem, it is a storage and interchange format for applications ... Why try to cram the entire world of computing science into XML? Cheers, James ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Wed Dec 2 08:28:00 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard In-Reply-To: Joel Bender's message of "Tue, 1 Dec 1998 16:00:45 -0500" References: Message-ID: Joel Bender writes: >> Alternatively, you could force people to use "YYYY-MM-DD" by >> forcing conformance to a regular expression, and have your >> applications only have to deal with that. > It may not be politicaly correct, and depending on the context might even > come across as ethnocentric, but IMHO that's not a bad thing. The important point I'm trying to make, is that I don't want to enforce this on a global scale. I want to enforce this in a DTD, for a specific application. It's a fair chance it will be ethnocentric and politically incorrect, but if I worry about those issues, I am free to try to provide a solution. Of course, having a *recommended* format for common data types would be a good thing. > A standards process doesn't need to cover all the cases I think it is important that the standards process come up with a good and preferably simple, mechanism. Like DTDs. I fear that trying to go into specifics is a political and technical rat's nest. > Let's say you give me a bunch of XML files which is are > marked-up email messages, and I would like to find out which ones are at > least a week old. It sure would be nice to know that the Tue, 1 > Dec 1998 02:00:09 +0000 contents you provided me have some > standard form. Of course it would be nice, and if the date format was properly specified in the DTD, you could. If you don't have a DTD (and know the semantics for it), you won't be able to figure this out anyway, since the message may contain many xml:type="date"s, and you won't know which ones to look at. > No, not specific to a language mapping, that belongs in some API or SAX > reference not in XML. That's what I meant (I think). It would make SAX a whole lot more complex, though, if it has to understand e.g. standardised dates, and return some kind of date object (or struct) when it encounters one. And by specifying the content type in the element attribute, you also risk of running into an unexpected data type, which will cause your application to give you a run time error. > Supporting grep content pattern matching doesn't > seem like it would be any more difficult than namespaces, kinda like... I would have thougth it would be simple, but then again, I'm culturally biased, and hadn't read the Unicode regexp document. Oh horror! ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Wed Dec 2 10:23:27 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? Message-ID: <002a01be1ddd$20a75e10$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> >How can you represent a strictly acyclic graph using ID/IDREF? You make the IDREF attribute optional, and use the absence of a value (the #IMPLIED default) to indicate a node that has no "parent". There are many other solutions, e.g. you could have a dummy element with the special ID value of "NULL", but I can't see why one would want to. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com Wed Dec 2 11:23:49 1998 From: selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com (Selvaleela) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: what for... Message-ID: <001f01be1de5$f348bfa0$0901a8c0@mail.com> Hello XML GURUS, 1. Will u say me what are advantages of xml other than user defined tags? 2. what are the browsers that supports xml. 3.How it coes into picture with EDI, 4.what is XML- RPC.How's it different from exizting RPC. Any answers or poniters is appreciated. Thanx in advance, selvaleela Mail - ID : selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981202/e519adb0/attachment.htm From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu Wed Dec 2 14:26:54 1998 From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: References: <199812011728.RAA19246@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3664D02C.F92BE4D3@Eng.Sun.COM> Message-ID: <36654E13.E3E5D85D@goon.stg.brown.edu> David Brownell wrote: > > Richard Tobin wrote: > > > the file play.dtd contains the tag > > > > This is not entirely surprising, since that file is dated 31 Jan 98 > > > > IE 5 appears to be within its rights not to detect the error > > This is one of those areas where the XML spec gives too much (IMHO) > leeway in terms of error reporting. While I think IE5 is doing a > legal thing here, there's not much reason not to fully recover from > this error in all cases, since "amp" is predefined and the original > definition trumps the others. Most other parsers in fact adopt a > rather different legal way to handle this error: ignore it totally! Okay. is not an error, because built-in entities are already defined, by definition. And so this (duplicate) definition ought to be ignored. Even if it isn't ignored, it doesn't matter. As long as it never gets expanded, isn't an error. (And it won't get expanded, because the entity's replacement text will already have been interned via the built-in definition). Just for the record, STG's validator flags as an error. Why? Because it is superfluous and misleading. Even in cases where the entity isn't built-in (e.g., ), and the entity isn't used in the text anywhere, we still flag it as an error. Why? Because again, such a definition is at best superfluous, and at worse misleading in the sense that it may produce errors in document + DTD combinations where the DTD was thought to be clean. Just for fun, try typing ]> into our validator (http://www.stg.brown.edu/service/xmlvalid/). You will see both warning messages (about [incompatible] entity redefini- tions) and error messages (about having an in- valid expansion - even though it's never actually used in the document below). Our early expansion of entities for the purpose of error correction is a bit fascist, but the point is to encourage the writing of DTDs that actually make sense. -- Richard Goerwitz PGP key fingerprint: C1 3E F4 23 7C 33 51 8D 3B 88 53 57 56 0D 38 A0 For more info (mail, phone, fax no.): finger richard@goon.stg.brown.edu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Dec 2 14:38:34 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981201163430.00bd2d40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <199812021438.JAA32060@hesketh.net> At 04:35 PM 12/1/98 -0800, Tim Bray wrote: >At 01:43 PM 12/1/98 -0500, Ralph Ferris wrote: >>In order to promote wide discussion of XLink/XPointer development issues, >>we are launching a new mailing list dedicated to these subjects. This comes >>after discussion with various people, following some messages that were >>posted on this (the XML-Dev) list, that this would be a useful thing to do. > >For the record, I disagree with moving XLink/Xpointer away from this >mailing list. My capacity to watch lists is about maxed out, and the >traffic here is bearable (for now). -Tim > I really like XLink and XPointer and want everyone in the XML community to know about and use them. On the other hand, I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that XLink and XPointer details, especially before the specs harden, deserve their own space. I'd like to see some members of the HyTime community who haven't been working full tilt with XML join the discussion, and I'd like to be able to ask fairly pointed questions about XLink/XPointer without boring the hell out of people who want to use XML as an interchange format. While I'll continue to make some postings to XML-Dev regarding XLink/XPointer, mostly regarding the status of my XLinkFilter project, I've definitely subscribed to the new list as well. If XSL and RDF rate their own spaces, XLink/XPointer does as well. My filters are all set up and ready to go. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Wed Dec 2 14:40:26 1998 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: In-Reply-To: Richard L. Goerwitz's message of Wed, 02 Dec 1998 09:26:27 -0500 Message-ID: <21698.199812021438@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > is not an error, because built-in entities > are already defined, by definition. No, it is an error because section 4.6 says: If the entities in question are declared, they must be declared as internal entities whose replacement text is the single character being escaped or a character reference to that character, as shown below. [...] [I suppose you could interpret this as saying that "&" is legal because its replacement text is an ampersand character, but in that case there is a bug in the standard.] -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Wed Dec 2 16:08:56 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List In-Reply-To: <199812021438.JAA32060@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.32.19981201163430.00bd2d40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981202095108.007f2430@amati.techno.com> At 09:40 AM 12/2/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >harden, deserve their own space. I'd like to see some members of the >HyTime community who haven't been working full tilt with XML join the >discussion, I actually don't know of anyone I would consider part of the HyTime community that hasn't been heavily involved with XML in one way or another (although I can't claim we've all been working "full tilt", although many of us are or have been). Certainly all the editors of the standard have been, as have long-time users like Lloyd Harding (SMIL), Michel Biezunski (Topic Maps), and Martin Bryan (XML EDI, Topic Maps). Fujistu (HyBrick) has been a long-time user of HyTime and an early implementor of Xlink/Xpointer. Steve DeRose of course is the editor of the Xlink and Xpointer specs. I personally did a partial implementation in DSSSL (). And, of course, I subscribed to the new mailing list immediately. XLink and XPointer are very important to HyTime because they provide exactly what HyTime has always needed: a simple but useful application of the HyTime ideas that makes it clearer what the benefits of a more sophisticated approach to hyperlinking are. My experience in teaching XLink is that people get it pretty fast, they start to see the potential in things like extended links and addressing of non-IDed things. They then see why HyTime is the way it is and see that XLink/XPointer provides a migration path for them such that when and if they reach the limit of what XLink and XPointer can do, they can start taking advantage of additional HyTime facilities without affecting their existing documents and software, because XLink and HyTime are syntactically and semantically compatible. By itself, XPointer is very useful to HyTime because it provides a very convenient addressing syntax that it was not practical for HyTime to provide directly (simply because we only had so much time to develop the standard and focused on the more general facilities--also defining a convenient syntax is much more difficult than defining a complete one because of the compromises that must be made to balance ease of use with functionality). Because HyTime is defined entirely in terms of operations on groves, HyTime can be used with any addressing mechanism as long as the results of that mechanism can be defined in grove terms. This is trivial for XPointers since they are already defined in terms of XML. One of the reasons I did a DSSSL-based implementation of XPointer is that it becomes the mapping of XPointer semantics onto the grove formalism, and in particular, the SGML document grove defined by the SGML property set (this is because DSSSL is also defined in terms of operations on groves). So XPointers are entirely meaningful and sensical within a HyTime environment. One interesting aspect of using XPointers within a HyTime environment is that you get indirection, which XLink/XPointer currently doesn't provide (and probably shouldn't provide if it hopes to stay sufficiently simple--indirection adds a significant amount of complication and implementation difficulty). For example, the following indirect address combines normal HyTime syntax with XPointers to provide what is essentially a table of named XPointers: ]> Document containing a set of indirect addresses for use by reference from other documents. Makes addresses easier to manage. Can think of it as a "public API" to a document that associates names with unnamed objects (elements addressed by position). This document can then be used by reference from other HyTime documents: ]> An out-of-line ("independent") extended link that associates two things in order to suggest that they compare to each other in some way. Here, I've shown the mapping between the HyTime variable link (varlink) form and the XLink extended form, even though an XLink processor would not resolve the indirection of the elements in the location table document (because XLink doesn't define any indirection mechanism). In other words, HyTime sees these documents as linking the third child of "/some/url" to the fourth child, while XLink sees these documents as linking the queryloc "child-3" to the queryloc "child-4". This is because a HyTime engine will resolve all the indirect addresses when it determines the anchors of the link, but an XLink engine will not. Note that the processing required by the HyTime engine is significantly greater than the processing required by the XLink engine, which is one reason why XLink doesn't (and probably shouldn't) require indirection. Unfortunately, from an authoring perspective (as opposed to a delivery perspective), indirection is pretty much a requirement in order to make addresses managable within a dynamic information base. Thus, it's likely that people will use indirection (and thus HyTime) while authoring and then convert the indirect addresses to direct XPointers for delivery. Cheers, E. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Dec 2 18:36:45 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981202095108.007f2430@amati.techno.com> References: <199812021438.JAA32060@hesketh.net> <3.0.32.19981201163430.00bd2d40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <199812021836.NAA03782@hesketh.net> At 09:51 AM 12/2/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >At 09:40 AM 12/2/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>harden, deserve their own space. I'd like to see some members of the >>HyTime community who haven't been working full tilt with XML join the >>discussion, > >I actually don't know of anyone I would consider part of the HyTime >community that hasn't been heavily involved with XML in one way or another >(although I can't claim we've all been working "full tilt", although many >of us are or have been). Certainly all the editors of the standard have >been, as have long-time users like Lloyd Harding (SMIL), Michel Biezunski >(Topic Maps), and Martin Bryan (XML EDI, Topic Maps). Fujistu (HyBrick) has >been a long-time user of HyTime and an early implementor of Xlink/Xpointer. > Steve DeRose of course is the editor of the Xlink and Xpointer specs. I >personally did a partial implementation in DSSSL >(). > >And, of course, I subscribed to the new mailing list immediately. To clarify: I didn't mean to say that HyTime folks weren't participating. >From where I am (in the XML-only, non-standards-body-participant community), I haven't heard too many of these folks _talking_. I'd like to see much more active participation by the entire hypertext community, and think this could be achieved at least in part by providing an XML forum specifically dedicated to hyperlinking technology. Thanks, Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Wed Dec 2 19:04:38 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List In-Reply-To: <199812021836.NAA03782@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981202095108.007f2430@amati.techno.com> <199812021438.JAA32060@hesketh.net> <3.0.32.19981201163430.00bd2d40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981202130427.00989ae0@amati.techno.com> At 01:36 PM 12/2/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >To clarify: I didn't mean to say that HyTime folks weren't participating. >From where I am (in the XML-only, non-standards-body-participant >community), I haven't heard too many of these folks _talking_. I'd like to >see much more active participation by the entire hypertext community, and >think this could be achieved at least in part by providing an XML forum >specifically dedicated to hyperlinking technology. Well, there hasn't been much to say as the spec hasn't changed since March. Also, until lately, most of the XML development focus was on name spaces and schemas. I'm sure that as soon as a new spec (or a statement of requirements, which I guess is the next phase, according to the new process) appears, we'll have plenty to say. And of course, some of us have been very busy implementing HyTime-based or supporting technology.... Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Dec 2 19:15:12 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: Default Namespace should be clearly documented ... References: <199811301928.LAA06695@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> <199812011904.LAA11584@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <3665918D.5729A5FC@locke.ccil.org> Bryan Cooper wrote: > That is, can we declare an ENTITY that contains a PI? Sure, why not? A parsed entity can have anything that matches the Content[43] rule (after entity references have been expanded, in the case of an internal parsed entity), and Content[43] allows elements, character data, references, CDATA sections, PIs, and comments. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Dec 2 21:42:31 1998 From: david at megginson.com (david@megginson.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:52 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <001901be1afc$f42a0d70$160016c0@jfinity1> References: <001901be1afc$f42a0d70$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <13925.45611.237148.155846@localhost.localdomain> Gabe Beged-Dov writes: > I have been performing thought experiments (in other words, I > haven't actually tried it out :-) on how to delay loading of > external entities using SAX. The scenario is you want to do browser > style incremental presentation where you delegate any external > entity loading to separate SAX pipelines. You want to spew the > overrall structure into the users' face as quickly as possible and > then fill in the blanks. I think that this is a mistaken approach -- it confuses entities with links. For what you want to do, it would be much better to have something like the following: Now, you can make the chapter a separate document, and parse (and render) it whenever you want. > My impression of the SAX architecture is that the parser is expecting to > handle all loading of external entities itself. It will call the > EntityResolver expecting to get either a system identifier or a stream. > There doesn't seem to be a third possibility of "ignore this entity". > > It seems you can fake this by returning a dummy stream to the parser from > your resolver. This dummy stream would have minimal well formed content > (could it be empty?) and then on you go. Are there other possibilities? An empty stream would be sufficient. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Thu Dec 3 00:26:35 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading Message-ID: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> >I think that this is a mistaken approach -- it confuses entities with >links. Well, entities are a confusing area of XML :-). linking is currently "missing in action" in most implementations that are available. Much hay is made of XML's ability to gracefully handle large information sets over the public internet. Are you saying that external parsed entities are not intended to play any role in addressing how to deal with incremental loading of XML documents? If this is the case, then what would the use of external entities be? I'm not trying to be difficult, and have a pretty good understanding of both the entity mechanism and linking. In fact, I'll be giving an overview of linking using Steve DeRoses' excellent slide set tomorrow for some local XML initiates (for discussions sake, lets accept that that implies that I understand the material :-). I guess I am looking for a pragmatic explanation of what the mix of political vs. technical issues is involved in external entity usage. Given the fact that a non-validating processor isn't even required to handle them, I'm still struggling to see if they and the associated NOTATION facilities are going to be useful to most XML users. Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From russ_reeves at hotmail.com Thu Dec 3 00:43:17 1998 From: russ_reeves at hotmail.com (Russ Reeves) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: XLink/XPointer Developer's List, how to subscribe Message-ID: <19981203004206.9450.qmail@hotmail.com> I missed the instructions to subscribe to the XLink/XPointer Developer's List. Could someone send the info to russ_reeves@hotmail.com I'd like to keep an eye on this as it develops. Thanks, Russ Reeves ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From liamquin at interlog.com Thu Dec 3 01:08:43 1998 From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: Internal subset equivalent in new schema proposals? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Tue, 1 Dec 1998, Joel Bender wrote: [...] > I've been adding something like this > to my XML documents: > NY Note that the xml prefix is reserved, so this is not really kosher. It's not actually an error, as the spec nowhere says what "reserved" means. [...] > Works OK for content, but I don't see how I can add this meta-meta-data for > attributes. You could do xml:content="name ~ /pattern/, ~ /pattern/" I suppose. But a schema would be better. Lee -- Liam Quin, GroveWare Inc., Toronto; The barefoot agitator l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Thu Dec 3 02:17:22 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: Publication of W3C XML Fragment WG Requirements document References: <3.0.32.19981201091136.00c68604@pophost.arbortext.com> Message-ID: <366DDD18.19CF@hiwaay.net> Paul Grosso wrote: "Both the document and the mailing list to which comments are sent are public, and non-W3C members can submit comments." This is to thank the chair and members of the XML Fragment Working Group for making this document available publicly and for the open list by which non-W3C members can submit comments. Len Bullard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kent at trl.ibm.co.jp Thu Dec 3 04:21:42 1998 From: kent at trl.ibm.co.jp (TAMURA Kent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: ANN: XML4J v1.1.9 Message-ID: <199812030420.NAA116030@ns.trl.ibm.com> XML4J v1.1.9 has been released. http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/xml We have renamed it from `XML for Java' to `XML Parser for Java.' Changes from previous public release: o Conforming to Namespace Proposed Recommendation o Improved memory usage in SAX mode o Added -nowarn, -stdout options to XJParse o XJParse can handle wildcards o Fixed many bugs Send comments or questions to xml4j@us.ibm.com or alphaWorks communityXchange, not to me directly, please. -- TAMURA, Kent @ Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Japan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bryan.cooper at veritas.com Thu Dec 3 08:55:54 1998 From: bryan.cooper at veritas.com (Bryan Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: Default Namespace should be clearly documented ... In-Reply-To: <3665918D.5729A5FC@locke.ccil.org> References: <199811301928.LAA06695@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> <199812011904.LAA11584@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <199812030855.AAA25226@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Thanx for the tip. But then how do we tell the parser that we want it to switch into a default namespace at the start and another at the end of the ENTITY? If that is another way to set the default, GREAT, but I just would like to see that in the spec 'cause it is obtuse enough as it is. I suspect however that there is no way to have a PI at the beginning of the ENTITY....everything else encapsulated by the ENTITY....and another PI only at the end of the ENTITY. And what is the proper PI to xml to change default namespace? Effectively: ....other stufff So how do I force the second to occur only after the rest of the stuff is parsed? That to me is what would make NAMESPACE stuff work bery bery good for me... Its a stack approach to namespace that I don't see in the spec. Yes? I really think there's a huge opportunity here with NAMESPACE to interact contextually with the parser. Stacks is one feature missing from XML. EVENTS is another missing function. At 02:14 PM 12/2/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >Bryan Cooper wrote: > >> That is, can we declare an ENTITY that contains a PI? > >Sure, why not? A parsed entity can have anything that matches >the Content[43] rule (after entity references have been expanded, >in the case of an internal parsed entity), and Content[43] >allows elements, character data, references, CDATA sections, >PIs, and comments. > >-- >John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. > You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. > Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > ...bryan F. Bryan Cooper 707 823 7324 VERITAS Software 707 321 3301 mobile Bryan.Cooper@veritas.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Dec 3 15:39:51 1998 From: david at megginson.com (david@megginson.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> Gabe Beged-Dov writes: > Well, entities are a confusing area of XML :-). linking is > currently "missing in action" in most implementations that are > available. Much hay is made of XML's ability to gracefully handle > large information sets over the public internet. Are you saying > that external parsed entities are not intended to play any role in > addressing how to deal with incremental loading of XML documents? I'm saying, at least, that they should not be used in that way. External entities should be used exclusively as a convenience to the author: to break up a long document into several parts, or to allow a document to be assembled from several sources. You can do some pretty fun things with external entities and URLs, such as the following: Every time the document is parsed, the parser (if it supports external entities) will automatically request the latest weather table from this (fake) CGI. You could also assemble a document from many different hosts: Chapter 1 could be in Phoenix, Chapter 2, in Singapore, Chapter 3 in Milan, etc.; to the parser, it would all still be a single document. Of course, this would be a silly choice in a time-critical environment, but it is the author's silly choice (just as putting a document on a slow server is an author's choice). External parsed entities have to do with the author's view of the document, not with the reader's/receiver's view. XML 1.0 should either have forbidden external parsed entities or made support for them compulsory; by including them but allowing them to be skipped, the spec has caused a great deal of unnecessary confusion and implementation headaches. > I guess I am looking for a pragmatic explanation of what the mix of > political vs. technical issues is involved in external entity usage. Given > the fact that a non-validating processor isn't even required to handle them, > I'm still struggling to see if they and the associated NOTATION facilities > are going to be useful to most XML users. I think that notations and unparsed entities in XML have proven themselves to be non-starters. They worked well in the SGML and have done me good service, but MIME types and hrefs provide the same functionality (if somewhat weaker validation) and they work with or without a document type declaration. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From xmldoubts at hotmail.com Thu Dec 3 15:52:18 1998 From: xmldoubts at hotmail.com (Prashanth K. Salur) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: Xml and Object Database Message-ID: <19981203154859.29520.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi All, While creating an Object database for an XML file, is it advisable to store just the root node of the XML file or store each node of the XML file seperately. Thanks With Regards SPK ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 16:12:24 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> At 09:30 PM 12/2/98 -0500, david@megginson.com wrote: >I think that notations and unparsed entities in XML have proven >themselves to be non-starters. They worked well in the SGML and have >done me good service, but MIME types and hrefs provide the same >functionality (if somewhat weaker validation) and they work with or >without a document type declaration. I can't agree with David's statement that MIME types and hrefs provide the same functionality as notations and external data entities. They are similar, but weaker: 1. href provides no indirection mechanism, which is one of the key points of entities. By concentrating the mapping of local names to storage objects in the document prolog, processors (and authors) do not need to scan an entire document to know what the doc-to-entity dependencies are. For small docs this doesn't really matter, but for very large docs, this can be a significant savings. This is why the HyTime bounded object set facility is defined in terms of entity declarations and not entity references. 2. Notations provide a richer degree of data type specification that is more flexible and more generally applicable than MIME types. For example, how do you apply a MIME type to an element or attribute? Notations are one of the most underappreciated aspects of SGML. The fact that you need a DOCTYPE declaration to use them is a minor problem, but having a DOCTYPE declaration doesn't mean you have a DTD, it only means you have the minimum declarations needed to understand a document. I think we should be careful to distinguish documents with no explicit prolog from documents with no explicit element type declarations. My personal opinion is that SGML has inappropriately conflated the element type declarations with the entity declarations. The former define the syntactic rules for the document, the latter define the storage organization of the document. These are two fundamentally different and unrelated things and should be completely syntactically separated. It is unfortunate that they are not. [I do agree with David that XML should never have included external text entities.] Of course, the use or non-use of entities and notations is a data management choice that has to be made on a case-by-case basis. There are certainly classes of document for which the indirection of entities does not provide sufficient benefit to justify the cost. But that isn't the case for all XML documents. So saying that entities and notations are non-starters is, I think, a bit strong. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Thu Dec 3 16:14:19 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading Message-ID: <007101be1ed7$b8610300$160016c0@jfinity1> What should a non-validating SAX parser do with the external entity if it isn't going to try to resolve it? The XML spec (sec.4.4.3) says the processormust inform the application that the entity has been encountered. Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Dec 3 16:20:02 1998 From: david at megginson.com (david@megginson.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <007101be1ed7$b8610300$160016c0@jfinity1> References: <007101be1ed7$b8610300$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <13926.47441.40285.714223@localhost.localdomain> Gabe Beged-Dov writes: > What should a non-validating SAX parser do with the external entity if it > isn't going to try to resolve it? The XML spec (sec.4.4.3) says the > processormust inform the application that the entity has been encountered. This has been pointed out as either a design flaw or feature in SAX, depending on whether you consider the EntityResolver to be part of the application or part of the parser. SAX forces the choice about resolving external entities to be made by the SAX client, not by the SAX driver (the client can choose to ignore an external entity by returning an empty character stream). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Thu Dec 3 16:35:49 1998 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: XPointer question Message-ID: <199812031634.LAA13751@chmls05.mediaone.net> Ok. To do datatypes using NOTATIONs, and other useful things, I've got all "real" data in elements, not attributes. That's fine. I'd still like to use XPointer to point to a container element based on the values of one *or* *more* contained elements. Pretend for a moment that real data is in attributes. Then I can do something like: root().descendant( 1, FOV0001A_POSITION, BROKERAGE_ACCT_NBR, "X01362986", BROKERAGE_CUSIP, "AB3839283AVS" ) This gets the first "position" for a given account ## and security ID (CUSIP). These two fields would make up the primary (unique) key to a positions table in a database. Is there a way to do something similar if BROKERAGE_ACCT_NBR and BROKERAGE_CUSIP are child elements of FOV0001A_POSITION? It strikes me as a somewhat difficult problem in the general tree-oriented case, but easy in table oriented cases. Is there (or should there be) a special case to find elements by their immediate children? How do other folks approach this issue? Charles Reitzel creitzel@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 16:54:38 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: XPointer question In-Reply-To: <199812031634.LAA13751@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203105440.008acc20@amati.techno.com> At 11:34 AM 12/3/98 -0500, Charles Reitzel wrote: >Is there a way to do something similar if BROKERAGE_ACCT_NBR and >BROKERAGE_CUSIP are child elements of FOV0001A_POSITION? For a single subelement condition, you can locate the subelement and then locate it's parent. But this is probably not generalizable with the current XPointer syntax. This is one of the difficult design choices faced by the XPointer designers: by making the language completely declarative there will be many things that can't be specified (or can't be specified in an obvious or efficient way) but making the language procedural significantly complicates the language and its implementation. Putting in a hook where arbitrary functions can go avoids the design problem but does not help with interchange very much. One obvious problem would be how to indicate the language that the function is in? HyTime solves this by requiring that all non-HyTime queries be associated with a declared notation--XPointer would have to provide the equivalent, presumably through a PI of some sort (the alternative would be to specify the full external ID of the query definition document--a notation declaration is, after all, nothing more than indirection to document that defines the notation's rules). Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tallen at sonic.net Thu Dec 3 17:56:14 1998 From: tallen at sonic.net (Terry Allen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: XPointer question Message-ID: <199812031755.JAA29460@bolt.sonic.net> Charles Reitzel wrote: | Ok. To do datatypes using NOTATIONs, and other useful things, I've got all | "real" data in elements, not attributes. That's fine. I'd still like to | use XPointer to point to a container element based on the values of one *or* | *more* contained elements. ... | Is there a way to do something similar if BROKERAGE_ACCT_NBR and | BROKERAGE_CUSIP are child elements of FOV0001A_POSITION? It strikes me as a | somewhat difficult problem in the general tree-oriented case, but easy in | table oriented cases. Is there (or should there be) a special case to find | elements by their immediate children? How do other folks approach this issue? Partly because of low acceptance of xpointer syntax among some elements of our programming staff I ended up writing a partial instance-based query module instead of using xpointers in CBL. It seemed to me that xpointers were okay for pointing into the tree one step at a time, but weren't designed to do what you want; however, a query should be able to do so. So maybe you're barking up the wrong tree and will have to await whatever the W3C does with XML queries. regards, Terry Allen Terry Allen Veo Systems, Inc. Business Language Designer 2440 W. El Camino Real tallen[at]sonic.net Mountain View, Calif., 94040 Common Business Library - available at http://www.veosystems.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 18:02:56 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:53 2004 Subject: Default Namespace should be clearly documented ... References: <199811301928.LAA06695@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> <199812011904.LAA11584@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> <199812030855.AAA25226@mailhub1.ncal.verio.com> Message-ID: <3666D214.29EDF9D7@locke.ccil.org> Bryan Cooper scripsit: > Thanx for the tip. But then how do we tell the parser that we want it to > switch into > a default namespace at the start and another at the end of the ENTITY? > > If that is another way to set the default, GREAT, but > I just would like to see that in the spec 'cause it is obtuse enough as it is. > > I suspect however that there is no way to have a PI at the beginning of the > ENTITY....everything else encapsulated by the ENTITY....and another PI only > at the end of the ENTITY. And what is the proper PI to xml to change > default namespace? I'm not sure whether you are asking about the actual Namespaces Proposed Recommendation, or some alternative PI-based namespace mechanism. Namespaces haven't been PI-based for many months now. The current mechanism, while somewhat lacking vis-a-vis DTDs, provides for scope control very neatly, because namespace defaulting is always within the scope of an element with an "xmlns" attribute. The current version is at http://www.w3.org/TR/PR-xml-names . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 18:22:46 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber scripsit: > 2. Notations provide a richer degree of data type specification that is > more flexible and more generally applicable than MIME types. For example, > how do you apply a MIME type to an element or attribute? Well, with another attribute, I suppose, the same way you apply a notation. > Notations are one > of the most underappreciated aspects of SGML. I agree in general. But perhaps the indirection that (as you say) is so valuable in entities is really overkill in notations, given the large effort built up in assigning MIME types absolute names. > My personal opinion is that SGML has inappropriately conflated the element > type declarations with the entity declarations. The former define the > syntactic rules for the document, the latter define the storage > organization of the document. These are two fundamentally different and > unrelated things and should be completely syntactically separated. It is > unfortunate that they are not. Hear, hear. Which is one of the reasons why XSchema does not provide support for text entities. (Unparsed entities are supported merely so that ENTITY/ENTITIES attributes can be validated.) > So saying that entities and notations are non-starters is, I think, a bit > strong. IMHO there has been insufficient effort on the part of tribal elders to explain what notations are meant to be for, and how they are useful to XMLists. Elements and attributes (disregarding for the moment the perennial question when to use which) are well understood thanks to the HTML experience, but notations are not. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Thu Dec 3 18:28:19 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: Xml and Object Database Message-ID: <008701be1ee9$f01d7c30$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> -----Original Message----- From: Prashanth K. Salur >While creating an Object database for an XML file, is it advisable to >store just the root node of the XML file or store each node of the XML >file seperately. Depends what you want to achieve! The obvious way to store an XML document in an object database is to take a typical DOM implementation (e.g. Docuverse's) and make each object persistent. However, that level of granularity may be overkill. The opposite extreme is to store the XML document as a string in a single persistent object. If you are clever, you can hide your implementation choice, providing the same interface in both cases. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 18:41:52 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> References: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> At 10:12 AM 12/3/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >At 09:30 PM 12/2/98 -0500, david@megginson.com wrote: >>I think that notations and unparsed entities in XML have proven >>themselves to be non-starters. They worked well in the SGML and have >>done me good service, but MIME types and hrefs provide the same >>functionality (if somewhat weaker validation) and they work with or >>without a document type declaration. > >I can't agree with David's statement that MIME types and hrefs provide the >same functionality as notations and external data entities. They are >similar, but weaker: I definitely agree with David's statement, and would frankly make it stronger. Notations and unparsed entities make sense only if you want all information regarding resources to be stored in the document, with no reliance on outside assistance. (For example, HTTP provides MIME type headers on its transfers.) If this isn't the case, notations and unparsed entities are a nuisance, providing functionality that duplicates that provided by other tools in a format all its own. > >1. href provides no indirection mechanism... >By concentrating the mapping of local names to storage objects >in the document prolog, processors (and authors) do not need to scan an >entire document to know what the doc-to-entity dependencies are. For small >docs this doesn't really matter, but for very large docs, this can be a >significant savings. >... Inline hrefs can't do this directly, but similar functionality and management can be provided through XLink, using hub documents to provide links rather than keeping all links inline. >2. Notations provide a richer degree of data type specification that is >more flexible and more generally applicable than MIME types... Perhaps, if you're creating your own notations on a regular basis. MIME types are quite flexible, however, especially if you don't mind declaring them as x-whatever. The main point remains that MIME types work well for Web-type situations where other facilities outside the document are capable of describing entities as richly and as completely, with less upkeep, than notations inside a document. >For example, >how do you apply a MIME type to an element or attribute? For the element, I could do it with a plain old CDATA attribute or with an external document specifying what element should be processed how. How would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, why one earth would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy overkill. >Of course, the use or non-use of entities and notations is a data >management choice that has to be made on a case-by-case basis. There are >certainly classes of document for which the indirection of entities does >not provide sufficient benefit to justify the cost. But that isn't the case >for all XML documents. Of course it's up to the user - but a lot of things would have been a lot simpler if XML had just plain excised this redundant and complicated 'feature' in favor of a style that better reflects its intended use on the Web. It may be worthwhile for users who do need to keep all that information in the document, and therefore worth keeping, but... what a headache... >So saying that entities and notations are non-starters is, I think, a bit >strong. Personally, I'd say it's a bit weak and declare them a menace or at least a nuisance, but as I mentioned above there may be cases where this information needs to be included in documents. Other application-level facilities would probably have been as capable, but it's there now... XML is SGML simplified enough to be useful to a wider audience, but there are many times I wish it had been simplified considerably further. (That way, when we go to add all these new features, they aren't all redundant, among other things.) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 18:49:47 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> At 01:21 PM 12/3/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >> Notations are one >> of the most underappreciated aspects of SGML. > >I agree in general. But perhaps the indirection that (as you say) >is so valuable in entities is really overkill in notations, given >the large effort built up in assigning MIME types absolute names. Unless I've misunderstood something, a MIME type is still an indirection to the definition of that MIME type. I.e., "text/xml" is a pointer to the RFC that establishes that MIME type. But then a problem is: where do I got to figure out what RFC a given MIME type maps to? What if the MIME type is an "x-*" MIME type, what do I do then? Note that the external ID for a notation could, in theory be a MIME type: >> So saying that entities and notations are non-starters is, I think, a bit >> strong. > >IMHO there has been insufficient effort on the part of tribal >elders to explain what notations are meant to be for, and how >they are useful to XMLists. Elements and attributes (disregarding >for the moment the perennial question when to use which) are well >understood thanks to the HTML experience, but notations are not. I've tried to do what I could. It's clear that I need to write a paper clearly outlining what notations are for and how they are best put to use. The short answer is that they are a highly general way to associate data objects with the definition of the rules that governs the interpretation of that data object. I think that the Web and Windows have established an unreasonable expectation that software will "just know" how to deal with things. Unfortunately, you can't always rely on registered MIME types and magic numbers. Perhaps part of the problem is that in the Web world we have tended to remove the need for such a generalized mechanism by hard-coding knowledge of the semantics of everything? But you can't do that forever, and MIME only seems to make the problem worse by requiring that all interchangable types be registered before they can be used. Notations don't require that because the external ID of a notation can be anything (including MIME types or their RFC documents). Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 19:01:17 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> References: <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <199812031900.OAA25539@hesketh.net> At 12:48 PM 12/3/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >Unless I've misunderstood something, a MIME type is still an indirection to >the definition of that MIME type. I.e., "text/xml" is a pointer to the RFC >that establishes that MIME type. But then a problem is: where do I got to >figure out what RFC a given MIME type maps to? What if the MIME type is an >"x-*" MIME type, what do I do then? And what if the notation in the XML/SGML document I've got on my computer references a proprietary standard or viewer that I don't have? Same useless data problem I had before... Maybe genuinely extensible viewing _software_ will get us past this thicket, but I don't think notations have any inherent advantages over MIME types beyond their being a superset, allowing them to reference even more lose-able resources. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 19:12:14 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: Notations and MIME types References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3666E258.844DB752@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber scripsit: > Unless I've misunderstood something, a MIME type is still an indirection to > the definition of that MIME type. I.e., "text/xml" is a pointer to the RFC > that establishes that MIME type. That's true, but it's not a *flexible* pointer. Neither you nor IETF is free to change the binding of "text/xml"; if XML changes, a new MIME type (which includes the parameters as well as the type/subtype information) must be registered. MIME parameters, BTW, are essentially a method of registering related MIME types en masse: e.g. registering "text/plain" with a "charset" parameter essentially registers "text/plain;charset=us-ascii", "text/plain;charset=utf-8" and so on for all the charsets in the charset registry. > But then a problem is: where do I go to > figure out what RFC a given MIME type maps to? IANA keeps that information in the MIME-type registry. > What if the MIME type is an > "x-*" MIME type, what do I do then? Nothing. This is the moral equivalent of a notation with a "file://" system identifier. > Note that the external ID for a > notation could, in theory be a MIME type: > > Indeed. > It's clear that I need to write a paper > clearly outlining what notations are for and how they are best put to use. Exactly. > Perhaps part of the problem is that in the Web world we have tended to > remove the need for such a generalized mechanism by hard-coding knowledge > of the semantics of everything? But you can't do that forever, and MIME > only seems to make the problem worse Not worse, perhaps not sufficiently better. > by requiring that all interchangable > types be registered before they can be used. Notations don't require that > because the external ID of a notation can be anything (including MIME types > or their RFC documents). One advantage of MIME types over notations is that they contain declarative information. Unless your program is AI-complete, the only thing you can do with the external ID of a notation is try to use a local table ("mailcap", the Win32 registry) to find an engine to process the data, and communications with that engine are crude: you typically can only request it to render the data in some default manner. A MIME-aware system can take more intelligent action even if it does not have a local resource for processing a specific MIME type, due to the structuring provided by MIME-type syntax. A MIME object of type "text/plain;charset="8859-8-e" can be rendered as ASCII plain text, with loss of information, even if the charset "8859-5-e" is unknown locally. A corresponding notation N1 defined by the external ID "urn:rfc:rfc1555#8859-5-e" leaves a similarly equipped notation-aware processor completely clueless. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 19:18:24 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3666E3C1.9F6EE41C@locke.ccil.org> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > If this isn't the case, notations and unparsed entities are a nuisance, > providing functionality that duplicates that provided by other tools in a > format all its own. I think it is important to distinguish between the use of unparsed entities (which involves notations) and the use of notations. Notations that govern elements through the use of a NOTATION attribute are a powerful feature for describing the syntax of what's in the element, as is shown by the repeated attempts to reinvent them in various schema proposals. As stated in my reply to Eliot, they provide a distributed registry as opposed to the centralized registry plus private use mechanism of MIME, but sacrifice MIME's declarative features that allow partial interpretation of unknown types. > How > would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, why one earth > would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy overkill. To say what the internal syntax of the attribute value is. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 19:24:20 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> At 01:42 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>1. href provides no indirection mechanism... >>By concentrating the mapping of local names to storage objects >>in the document prolog, processors (and authors) do not need to scan an >>entire document to know what the doc-to-entity dependencies are. For small >>docs this doesn't really matter, but for very large docs, this can be a >>significant savings. >>... > >Inline hrefs can't do this directly, but similar functionality and >management can be provided through XLink, using hub documents to provide >links rather than keeping all links inline. I don't see how this follows: XLink provides *no* indirection mechanism other than extended links, which wouldn't really do what you need anyway, I don't think (remember David's caution not to confuse storage organization with linking--they are two fundamentally different things and confating them will lead to pain). If you were talking HyTime, we'd be in 100% agreement (except that I'd still use entity declarations in the Hub document, but I wouldn't use them anywhere else). >>2. Notations provide a richer degree of data type specification that is >>more flexible and more generally applicable than MIME types... > >Perhaps, if you're creating your own notations on a regular basis. Which I am. That's the whole point. Remember, it's not just about things like graphics formats, but about application-specific semantic things like queries, like grove constructors for private data types, like arbitrary application-specific data types. MIME >types are quite flexible, however, especially if you don't mind declaring >them as x-whatever. But I do mind: if I see "x-whatever/whatever", how do I know where to look, as a programmer or document recipient, to understand what the rules for that MIME type are? If there's a place, tell me, because either I've terribly misunderstood the MIME mechanism (quite possible) or I've overlooked some non-obvious aspect of x-* MIME types. >Web. It may be worthwhile for users who do need to keep all that >information in the document, and therefore worth keeping, but... what a >headache... It's not a headache if you have a document-centric system where you are not dependent on software or the protocol of the day to define your data dependencies. I have clients with documents with expected life spans measured in hundreds of years. Will recommend that they rely on MIME types? Not under any circumstances. Not to say that MIME types are bad, only that I don't expect them to be around in 100 years. I do expect SGML and XML, as *implementation and system independent standards* to be around in 100 years. >XML is SGML simplified enough to be useful to a wider audience, but there >are many times I wish it had been simplified considerably further. (That >way, when we go to add all these new features, they aren't all redundant, >among other things.) Notations are not redundant with MIME types for the very important reason that mapping of short name (notation name, MIME type name) to definition is managed using SGML/XML-defined means for notations and by other means for MIME types. (Which means, in part, that you get to choose your own local names for notations, which you of course cannot for MIME types.) Note also that if the external ID for a notation *is* a MIME type (or its defining RFC), then notations can take advantage of the MIME infrastructure, which is probably useful. Notations are more general than MIME types, so MIME cannot completely replace the use of notations. It's also important to remember that XML is not designed to work *only* on the Web, it is designed to work *well* on the Web. It would be foolish at best to design a language that only had those things absolutely needed by today's Web technology. It would be like designing roads that can only accomodate model T's because that's all people have today. If you don't find notations useful, don't use them in your documents. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kacper at odi.com Thu Dec 3 19:29:03 1998 From: kacper at odi.com (Kacper Nowicki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: Xml and Object Database In-Reply-To: <19981203154859.29520.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981203111638.00a4b9e0@mailhost.odi.com> At 07:48 AM 12/3/98 -0800, Prashanth K. Salur wrote: >Hi All, >While creating an Object database for an XML file, is it advisable to >store just the root node of the XML file or store each node of the XML >file seperately. It depends on what you plan to do. If you want to run a query on XML document content, you'll be better off storing each node separately. If you will send this document to other recipent without any processing, I guess you can store it as a (Unicode) String. Kacper xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 19:33:56 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <199812031900.OAA25539@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203133112.009bfe40@amati.techno.com> At 02:02 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 12:48 PM 12/3/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >>Unless I've misunderstood something, a MIME type is still an indirection to >>the definition of that MIME type. I.e., "text/xml" is a pointer to the RFC >>that establishes that MIME type. But then a problem is: where do I got to >>figure out what RFC a given MIME type maps to? What if the MIME type is an >>"x-*" MIME type, what do I do then? > >And what if the notation in the XML/SGML document I've got on my computer >references a proprietary standard or viewer that I don't have? Same >useless data problem I had before... It's not a software issue, it's a knowing what the data type is so I can get the right software issue. If someone gives you a document with a useless external ID for a notation, that's a problem between you and the author of that document and no mechanism can fix that problem. >Maybe genuinely extensible viewing _software_ will get us past this >thicket, but I don't think notations have any inherent advantages over MIME >types beyond their being a superset, allowing them to reference even more >lose-able resources. But it's not just about *viewing*, it's about processing of all sorts. Pulling down a plug-in for viewing a particular kind of data is only one small application of notations. If you are only thinking about the problem in terms of viewing things on the Web, then you are missing the point. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 19:39:43 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3666E3C1.9F6EE41C@locke.ccil.org> References: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199812031936.OAA26318@hesketh.net> At 02:17 PM 12/3/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >I think it is important to distinguish between the use of unparsed >entities (which involves notations) and the use of notations. >Notations that govern elements through the use of a NOTATION attribute >are a powerful feature for describing >the syntax of what's in the element, as is shown by the repeated >attempts to reinvent them in various schema proposals. As stated in my reply to Eliot, they >provide a distributed registry as opposed to the centralized registry >plus private use mechanism of MIME, but sacrifice MIME's declarative >features that allow partial interpretation of unknown types. I still argue that notations are a waste of time based on the misguided notion that information about dependencies (of whatever type) actually belongs in the document. Let the dependent pieces be self-describing (MIME or something better), and you'll have a far more manageable system. Keep as little information in the document as possible, and remember that there are other tools out there that can describe non-XML data types. XML can focus on XML, which is what is does best, and leave the rest of this out of it. If the dependencies are within the document, then that's a case for meaningful and flexible schemas, not for notations. If schemas won't cut it, then maybe you can turn to an external source for information on element types, but it seems like you've really gone too far at that point. >> How >> would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, why one earth >> would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy overkill. > >To say what the internal syntax of the attribute value is. > Er, yes, that's overkill, like I said. Nuclear weapons to kill gnats and all that. Seems like a schema could crush that gnat quite nicely, and even use MIME types if necessary, without resorting to notations. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 19:51:06 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> References: <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> At 01:20 PM 12/3/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >>MIME types are quite flexible, however, especially if you don't mind declaring >>them as x-whatever. > >But I do mind: if I see "x-whatever/whatever", how do I know where to look, >as a programmer or document recipient, to understand what the rules for >that MIME type are? If there's a place, tell me, because either I've >terribly misunderstood the MIME mechanism (quite possible) or I've >overlooked some non-obvious aspect of x-* MIME types. And if I get one of your notation-encrusted documents, and don't have an application that can cope with it, where do I find the information? I can't. The problem isn't that MIME mechanisms are worse than notation mechanisms - it's that there isn't a central and flexible registry for either system that is publicly available and works. I see notations as worsening this problem because they exist inside documents and become management nightmares if the registry of whatever kind changes. Allowing information to identify itself when requested avoids this complication - the registry may not be any better, but at least I don't have to modify my documents to match up to the registry. >>Web. It may be worthwhile for users who do need to keep all that >>information in the document, and therefore worth keeping, but... what a >>headache... > >It's not a headache if you have a document-centric system where you are not >dependent on software or the protocol of the day to define your data >dependencies. I have clients with documents with expected life spans >measured in hundreds of years. Will recommend that they rely on MIME >types? Not under any circumstances. Not to say that MIME types are bad, >only that I don't expect them to be around in 100 years. I do expect SGML >and XML, as *implementation and system independent standards* to be around >in 100 years. Will the software that reads your documents still be running in a hundred years, or will people be cracking open your archives with applications that can't make head or tail of your notations? >It's also important to remember that XML is not designed to work *only* on >the Web, it is designed to work *well* on the Web. It would be foolish at >best to design a language that only had those things absolutely needed by >today's Web technology. It would be like designing roads that can only >accomodate model T's because that's all people have today. Yes, but I don't recommend building country lanes as four-lane highways with double guardrails either, especially in a world where guardrail standards change frequently. >If you don't find notations useful, don't use them in your documents. I don't. And I don't recommend them to others, either. Describe, yes, but not recommend. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 19:55:11 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:54 2004 Subject: More on notations and MIME types References: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <199812031936.OAA26318@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3666EC1D.199E6A45@locke.ccil.org> Simon St. Laurent scripsit: > I still argue that notations are a waste of time based on the misguided > notion that information about dependencies (of whatever type) actually > belongs in the document. Notations are equivalent in power to XML-Data/DCD datatypes, though. Somebody (with capital S) thinks it's worth being able to say what the (syntactic) type of the information in an element is, and doesn't seem to realize that notations already *do* that job. Note that specific values can be pushed off into the DTD or XSchema or whatever as default NOTATION attribute values. > Let the dependent pieces be self-describing (MIME or something better), and > you'll have a far more manageable system. Keep as little information in > the document as possible, and remember that there are other tools out there > that can describe non-XML data types. XML can focus on XML, which is what > is does best, and leave the rest of this out of it. That seems not to be the case, or the database folks wouldn't be howling for "data typing in XML". Notations do the job they want. > >> How > >> would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, why one earth > >> would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy overkill. > > > >To say what the internal syntax of the attribute value is. > > Er, yes, that's overkill, like I said. Nuclear weapons to kill gnats and > all that. Seems like a schema could crush that gnat quite nicely, and even > use MIME types if necessary, without resorting to notations. Eh? You asked why MIME types for attributes might be needed; I replied, and that became another occasion to denounce notations in favor of MIME types or nothing at all. If your strictures apply to notations, they apply to MIME types too. Here's my potted version of notations vs. MIME types: Both provide names for syntactic encodings. Notations have local names (private aliases), whereas MIME types don't. MIME type names have internal syntax, allowing partial interpretation; notation names are opaque. MIME types reference a central registry with private-use extensions; notations reference a distributed registry. (And now I know how to explain notations for the book!) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 19:59:59 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203133112.009bfe40@amati.techno.com> References: <199812031900.OAA25539@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <199812031958.OAA26760@hesketh.net> At 01:31 PM 12/3/98 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >>Maybe genuinely extensible viewing _software_ will get us past this >>thicket, but I don't think notations have any inherent advantages over MIME >>types beyond their being a superset, allowing them to reference even more >>lose-able resources. > >But it's not just about *viewing*, it's about processing of all sorts. >Pulling down a plug-in for viewing a particular kind of data is only one >small application of notations. If you are only thinking about the problem >in terms of viewing things on the Web, then you are missing the point. Viewing isn't everything, certainly. Processing of all kinds should be equally extensible. But if I can't open your documents and process them because you used notations referencing things I can't get to, I might just as well turn off the computer so I don't have to look at it, right? On the other hand, if those things were self-identifying, using a publicly documented and readily available system, I might get to see something useful - whether it's a picture on my screen or the lights in my house dimming at the right time or my toaster making my toast come out just right. Worse yet, if your document about dimming the lights comes up as 'burn the toast' in my system because our notation registries were very different, I'm going to be very unhappy. (I like burned toast, but there are limits...) If you don't care about being able to exchange documents readily between applications and systems, why bother with SGML or XML? I suppose it's no worse than any other format, but it really does leave me wondering. Public registries and self-identifying documents seem like the only out of this mess to me, but so far that hasn't gone nearly far enough. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 20:04:43 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3666EDFB.6AC93645@locke.ccil.org> Simon St.Laurent scripsit: > I see notations as worsening this problem because they exist inside > documents I'm not sure what this means. Notation *declarations* exist within documents, but all they do is bind a local name to the universal name of the notation, like external parsed entity decls and namespace decls. Notation *definitions* are global, like the IANA MIME-type registry, but they piggyback on the URL system. > and become management nightmares if the registry of whatever kind > changes. Allowing information to identify itself when requested avoids > this complication - the registry may not be any better, but at least I > don't have to modify my documents to match up to the registry. I should add one point to my potted summary: The binding of (universal) MIME type names to their specifications isn't allowed to change, except possibly for allowing upward-compatible extensions, like new characters in Unicode; for new semantics, new names (possibly via parameters) must be introduced. Overall, then, neither notations nor MIME types are subsets of the other; each has special properties the other lacks. Eliot scripsit: > >Not to say that MIME types are bad, > >only that I don't expect them to be around in 100 years. I do expect SGML > >and XML, as *implementation and system independent standards* to be around > >in 100 years. MIME type names are also implementation- and system-independent, though IANA is more de facto than ISO. Local renderers for them are not, of course. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cameron at cs.sfu.ca Thu Dec 3 20:06:08 1998 From: cameron at cs.sfu.ca (Rob Cameron) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: REX: XML Shallow Parsing with Regular Expressions Message-ID: <199812032002.MAA01868@cs.sfu.ca> Recently I've been having a great deal of fun building XML shallow parsers using regular expressions. The result is REX 1.0 as documented in the paper described below. The fun comes from the several cute techniques (shallow parsing with a single regular expression, literate regular expression programming, UTF-8 processing using 8-bit extended ASCII regular expression packages) that combine in a very nice way. In particular, REX parsers for XML are generated from an XML representation of regular expressions which is processed by tools written using REX! Needless to say, initial hand-written parsers were need to bootstrap the process. Fun aside, I think there is serious room for REX in the area of lightweight XML tool implementation. I'd be interested in feedback from the XML development community about possible applications of REX. Robert D. Cameron, "REX: XML Shallow Parsing with Regular Expressions", CMPT TR 1998-17, School of Computing Science, Simon Fraser University, November 1998. http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~cameron/REX.html Abstract The syntax of XML is simple enough that it is possible to parse an XML document into a list of its markup and text items using a single regular expression. Such a shallow parse of an XML document can be very useful for the construction of a variety of lightweight XML processing tools. However, complex regular expressions can be difficult to construct and even more difficult to read. Using a form of literate programming for regular expressions, this paper documents a set of XML shallow parsing expressions that can be used a basis for simple, correct, efficient, robust and language-independent XML shallow parsing. Complete shallow parser implementations of less than 50 lines each in Perl, JavaScript and Lex/Flex are also given. Robert D. Cameron, Associate Professor cameron@cs.sfu.ca School of Computing Science FAX: (604) 291-3045 Simon Fraser University Burnaby, B.C., Canada V5A 1S6 Internet Electronic Library Project at SFU http://elib.cs.sfu.ca/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 20:28:47 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: More on notations and MIME types In-Reply-To: <3666EC1D.199E6A45@locke.ccil.org> References: <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <199812031936.OAA26318@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203142801.009e5100@amati.techno.com> At 02:53 PM 12/3/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >Here's my potted version of notations vs. MIME types: > > Both provide names for syntactic encodings. > > Notations have local names (private aliases), > whereas MIME types don't. > > MIME type names have internal syntax, allowing partial > interpretation; notation names are opaque. But you can get the same effect with data ("notation") attributes (or you could, if XML had included them.). Also, the SGML Extended facilities, we formalized a mechanism for establishing notation hierarchies so that one notation can name another notation as its supertype. More verbose than the MIME mechanism, but I think ultimately more flexible. Again, depends on data attributes. Here, I think, it comes down to syntax choices. Any syntax defined for compactness will almost always be limited in some key way. And of course, you can combine notations with MIME types to take advantage of the MIME facilities, if you want to (by making the MIME type the external ID of the notation, directly or indirectly). > MIME types reference a central registry with private-use > extensions; notations reference a distributed registry. But notations can use any central registry that exists, including the MIME registry. If we had a generally available public ID or URN registry, it wouldn't even be an issue. I observe that part of the issue here seems to be the need to have reliable public registries for persistently-named resources, which is a general problem. MIME type names are persistent names--if there existed a general-purpose registry of persistent names, then MIME type names wouldn't need their own special-purpose registry (which obviously they had to have in order to make MIME work at all). Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 20:28:47 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> At 02:52 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >Will the software that reads your documents still be running in a hundred >years, or will people be cracking open your archives with applications that >can't make head or tail of your notations? IT'S NOT ABOUT SOFTWARE. It's about knowing the software requirements are. Given a notation definition document I, as a programmer, should be able to understand what needs to be done to implement the software needed to support the notation. That's the whole point. It's a given that software will come and go but data will remain. Thus a mechanism that indirects from data to software through the definition for the requirements of the data type. If someone creates a reference to anotation for which the documentation is unavailable, then they, not the system, has screwed up. If I don't provide a good URL or URN or public ID for a notation when I declare it, then I've made a terrible mistake. If I define a notation and don't document it, I've made a terrible mistake. Notations simply try to reinforce the idea that for every thing there better by golly be some documentation and it better be where people know how to find it. I observe that XML is itself an excellent example of a data notation that can be reliably declared using the notation mechanism because it is both well documented and the authoritative name for it is well managed. In my opinion this is the canonical declaration for the XML notation: You could also argue that the MIME type itself would be appropriate as the external ID, but then I've just added two layers of indirection to get the spec itself (one to look up the MIME RFC, another to go from that document to the XML spec itself, which I assume it references). I can now use the XML notation for entities representing other documents (irrespective of how they be used semantically or whether I actually reference them from the instance): Now there is no question that the document is *expected to be* an XML document. Whether it is or not is another question, but I really do need to know in advance what I, as author of this document, expect it to be. Without this, I'm just throwing pointers around without any way of saying, as an author, what I expect to get. The fact that, in an HTTP environment (one of an infinite number of possible environments in which I might be using both documents), a MIME header will come back telling me what the server says it thinks the resource is (which is not necessarily what the document really is) lets me do a sanity check by making sure that my expectation and the result are the same. But of course, I didn't actually need the MIME type in this case as XML documents are self describing (but it might be nice to know if the server is correctly configured). So in that sense, the MIME type is redundant for any data type that is already self describing (e.g., XML, SGML, most graphic formats, VRML, etc.). Hmmm. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Thu Dec 3 20:33:55 1998 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: Xml and Object/Relational Database Message-ID: <199812032029.MAA14947@mailsun3> In Oracle8i we're taking a approach to allow developers the flexibility of storing XML Documents in any way they choose along the spectrum of: Single, Indexed text-BLOB ==> Fully Expanded into Foreign-Key linked Tables The middle ground is that highly structured data gets mapped into a set of related tables and structured text markup doc fragments get mapped into text-BLOB's. The simple example I use to show off why this might be interesting would be to consider an Insurance Claim XML document like: 12345 7 Borden Real Estate 12-OCT-1998 200000 JCOX A massive Fire ravaged the building and 12 people were killed. Early FBI reports indicate that arson is suspected. If you map the settlement payment sections into tables and columns and the DamageReport doc fragment into a text blob, then you can query over your datawarehouse of Insurance Claims to answer a question like: "How much money has Jim Cox approved to date in settlement payments for arson-related fire claims? " Using a straightforward SQL statement like: SELECT SUM(csp.Amount) FROM Claim_Header ch, Claim_Settlements cs, Claim_Settlement_Payments csp WHERE csp.Approver = 'JCOX' AND CONTAINS (DamageReport, 'Arson WITHIN Motive') > 0 AND CONTAINS (DamageReport, 'Fire WITHIN Cause' ) > 0 AND . . . /* Join Clauses */ We're participating in the W3C Query Language workshop today and tomorrow (as well as follow-on W3C XML Query work) to help shape the eventual W3C standard syntax for XML document queries. In the future, you may have alternative syntaxes to answer the same questions of your enterprise information, but this is our near term game plan. ____________________________________________________________________________ Steve | Consulting PM & XML Technology Evangelist | smuench@oracle.com Muench | Java Business Objects Dev Team | geocities.com/~smuench Oracle XML Homepage http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Kacper Nowicki Subject: Re: Xml and Object Database Date: 03 Dec 98 11:19:42 Size: 2630 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981203/bb9b64a8/attachment.eml From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 20:34:05 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3666EDFB.6AC93645@locke.ccil.org> References: <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199812032030.PAA27278@hesketh.net> At 03:00 PM 12/3/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >Simon St.Laurent scripsit: > >> I see notations as worsening this problem because they exist inside >> documents > >I'm not sure what this means. Notation *declarations* exist within >documents, but all they do is bind a local name to the universal >name of the notation, like external parsed entity decls and namespace >decls. Notation *definitions* are global, like the IANA MIME-type >registry, but they piggyback on the URL system. And how reliable is the URL system? I like www.simonstl.com, but I wouldn't count on it being there in ten years. A central registry, with version control, and a mechanism for external resources to identify themselves (like MIME content-headers) seems like a much more reliable system. You'll still need to update your software periodically, to take advantage of the latest toys, but at least you can always look in the same place. Don't need to touch your documents or your schemas to accomodate new types, either. Keep it out of the documents, in a place you can control more easily than megabytes of elements. Identifiers for internal pieces? How about standardized schemas? Sounds good to me. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 20:45:01 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3666F81B.90526E34@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber scripsit: > So in that sense, the MIME type is redundant for any data type that is > already self describing (e.g., XML, SGML, most graphic formats, VRML, > etc.). Hmmm. Almost. The MIME type gives you *some* information about the document even if you do not understand its type fully. For example, something labeled "text/xml" is known to be text, even if your application has never heard of XML. As such, it has certain properties that can be relied on. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 20:51:24 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <199812031900.OAA25539@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> <3666D6BE.7836BF29@locke.ccil.org> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031958.OAA26760@hesketh.net> <199812032023.PAA27169@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3666F980.82B41827@locke.ccil.org> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > How is [a notation] any better than a MIME > type, which does about the same thing? It is slightly more flexible - like > a gun with a barrel that can rotate 90 degrees, right at your foot. It also allows you to escape the dilemma "either private use only, or published in the IANA registry". See below. > So you'd like to use the Web as one giant registry? I suppose I could > ponder this, but again, I have serious doubts as to its usefulness. If > only on grounds of longevity - /X10/ could go dim in ten years, with no way > to figure out what happened. Very true. Hence the need for URNs, or URLs managed as URNs. No formal property whatever *guarantees* persistence: persistence is a property of how humans behave (in the case of MIME, how Jon Postel behaved and how his successors are expected to behave). > External X10 data could, however, change its > identification without some lucky person or program tracking down every > reference to it in documents to reflect the change. Again, I believe notations (whether used directly, or mediated through schemas/DTDs) are far more useful when governing elements than when describing whole remote documents. > Putting the notations > in documents creates a maintenance headache that shouldn't be > underestimated. Of course, it depends on whether its easier to change the > documents or the server providing the extra resources. Right now, it's a > lot easier to change the server. Okay, I'm convinced now that we really need the MIME-types-as-notations DTD fragment. Stand by..... > >> Public registries and self-identifying documents seem like the only out of > >> this mess to me, but so far that hasn't gone nearly far enough. > > > >The WWW *is* a public registry, or at least can encapsulate one > >using PURLs and such. > > See above for longevity issues. Something safe and centralized, complete > with version control, seems like the only way out of this nightmare. Safe central registries can be *created* on top of the WWW (as the PURL folks are doing) without sacrificing the utility of ad-hoc-but-globally-accessible universal names for things. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Dec 3 20:59:57 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> References: <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <199812032059.PAA27775@hesketh.net> At 02:18 PM 12/3/98 -0600, you wrote: >At 02:52 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >>Will the software that reads your documents still be running in a hundred >>years, or will people be cracking open your archives with applications that >>can't make head or tail of your notations? > >IT'S NOT ABOUT SOFTWARE. >It's about knowing the software requirements are. Given a notation >definition document I, as a programmer, should be able to understand what >needs to be done to implement the software needed to support the notation. >That's the whole point. It's a given that software will come and go but >data will remain. Thus a mechanism that indirects from data to software >through the definition for the requirements of the data type. I know it's not about software. How can you guarantee that in a hundred years someone will be able to find the identifiers used in your notations? Will they be at the same network address? Will they have to go through yet another stack of backup tapes? What if you referenced something outside of your network and its control, and there is nothing left... (I think they'll start wishing it was more about software and less about indirection at that point.) >If someone creates a reference to anotation for which the documentation is >unavailable, then they, not the system, has screwed up. If I don't provide >a good URL or URN or public ID for a notation when I declare it, then I've >made a terrible mistake. If I define a notation and don't document it, >I've made a terrible mistake. Notations simply try to reinforce the idea >that for every thing there better by golly be some documentation and it >better be where people know how to find it. Again, why should document authors (and even schema authors) be responsible for 'not screwing up'? Seems like something much better handled by other mechanisms. Well-known and generally reliable mechanisms like MIME content-type headers avoid this problem completely. >I observe that XML is itself an excellent example of a data notation that >can be reliably declared using the notation mechanism because it is both >well documented and the authoritative name for it is well managed. In my >opinion this is the canonical declaration for the XML notation: > > PUBLIC "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml" In my opinion, the canonical declaration is a lot simpler: or The MIME type application/xml references http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml if an application can't figure that out. By the time it reaches your notation, we have three layers of identification. I'd give decent odds that the URL in your NOTATION is more likely to have a typo than an automatically generated application/xml or even . And who's to say the W3C will still be around, at that address, or that DNS to resolve it will still be around in 20 years? >Now there is no question that the document is *expected to be* an XML >document. Whether it is or not is another question, but I really do need to >know in advance what I, as author of this document, expect it to be. >Without this, I'm just throwing pointers around without any way of saying, >as an author, what I expect to get. Why specify? Why are you so concerned about getting what _you_ expect to get? Why not leave it open, and build applications that can handle such 'unreliability'? Oddly enough, they tend to be more reliable, certainly more extensible, and can be used in wider number of scenarios than the author originally planned for. >The fact that, in an HTTP environment (one of an infinite number of >possible environments in which I might be using both documents), a MIME >header will come back telling me what the server says it thinks the >resource is (which is not necessarily what the document really is) lets me >do a sanity check by making sure that my expectation and the result are the >same. But of course, I didn't actually need the MIME type in this case as >XML documents are self describing (but it might be nice to know if the >server is correctly configured). I'd argue that your notation is redundant and that you didn't build a very flexible application. It may be okay in some situations, but not build a more flexible system to start with? Or perform your type checking someplace else? >So in that sense, the MIME type is redundant for any data type that is >already self describing (e.g., XML, SGML, most graphic formats, VRML, >etc.). Hmmm. As I said above, MIME + self-describing is enough of a check for me. The third check, the notation, is redundant and unnecessary. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 21:18:55 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:55 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3666F81B.90526E34@locke.ccil.org> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203151735.009ca720@amati.techno.com> At 03:44 PM 12/3/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >W. Eliot Kimber scripsit: > >> So in that sense, the MIME type is redundant for any data type that is >> already self describing (e.g., XML, SGML, most graphic formats, VRML, >> etc.). Hmmm. > >Almost. The MIME type gives you *some* information about the >document even if you do not understand its type fully. For >example, something labeled "text/xml" is known to be text, >even if your application has never heard of XML. As such, it >has certain properties that can be relied on. I see the point, but I would argue the following: 1. The same effect can be provided by supertype data content notations (using data attributes, which XML doesn't support) 2. having only two levels of typing seems either insufficient or unnecessarily limiting. 3. It assumes that the resource is something for which distinctions like text or not-text are even relevant. It may not be, because the data type may be entirely abstract (like an SGML architecture or grove construction process). Note that notations can be declared within architectures and used indirectly by that means, so that, for example, you can define a hierarchy of notation classes in an architecture but need only declare the subtype you need in your document locally. You could in fact have an architecture whose sole purpose is to define a set of related notations. This might be quite useful, since the architecture could itself be a public resource and therefore act as a public and managed registry of notations in a standardized syntax. The real issue is whether you depend on a single management mechanism or use a general mechanism that can either encapsulate some existing mechanism (e.g., MIME) or provide other, equivalent mechanisms. Since I know that I will often be operating on documents in environments where things like the MIME registry is unavailable, I need a mechanism that I can use without it, even if I use the MIME registry when it's available and appropriate. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Thu Dec 3 21:38:42 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <199812032059.PAA27775@hesketh.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> <199812031950.OAA26600@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203153927.009d2e90@amati.techno.com> At 04:01 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >I know it's not about software. How can you guarantee that in a hundred >years someone will be able to find the identifiers used in your notations? >Will they be at the same network address? Will they have to go through yet >another stack of backup tapes? What if you referenced something outside of >your network and its control, and there is nothing left... (I think >they'll start wishing it was more about software and less about indirection >at that point.) You're right, the URL for the XML spec is not sufficient (but neither is "", since you need to know what thing defines what that magic number means). In thinking about it, I think the only thing that will be reliable is to depend on a non-electronic, human-primary, long-term repository like the Library of Congress. If the XML spec had a Library of Congress number (it may, for all I know), then I could use that as the public ID and be assured that my intent is understandable for at least as long as the Library of Congress persists as an institution. Since we are ultimately dependent on the persistent of human institutions, I think that's about the most we can hope for (but see my post to comp.text.sgml some time back about very long term archiving of documents)). If the resource exists electronically, the public ID can always be mapped to it. If the resource does not exist electronically, you call the library and ask them if they have a copy you can borrow. If no copies exist, then there's not much you can do in any case except start in on some cyperpaleontology to see if you can dig up code somewhere that embodies the information provided by the spec ("I seem to remember seeing a diskette with the source around for XP a few years back--'ought four I think it was--you kids today wouldn't believe what sort of things we had for computers back then, no sir. We used to type with our fingers for hours--and we liked it! Here it is. 'Course, I haven't had a reader for these darn diskettes for about fourty years or so--maybe there's one over at the University in the basement of the archives somewhere. Good luck kid.") Thus, the declaration for XML as a notation should be something like: Nothing less is reliable in the time scales I normally care about. For the other arguments you raise, I can only conclude that we are not communicating and/or are operating in such different operating environments that our requirements are too far diverged for us to come to agreement on the issue. I suspect we are both right with respect to our primary requirements. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From estephen at appliedtheory.com Thu Dec 3 22:06:00 1998 From: estephen at appliedtheory.com (Eric A. Stephens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent Message-ID: In a DTD that I am developing, I have the same "primitive" element defined in two different parent element. For example: What I'm looking to do is have different ATTLIST defs for the element TYPE depending on the element that TYPE is contained within. I've looked at the spec and some examples and its not clear to me at this point. If anyone has an answer or pointers to where I can get the answer please let me know. Eric A. Stephens estephen@AppliedTheory.com Software Engineering Group http://www.AppliedTheory.com AppliedTheory Communications, Inc. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 22:09:28 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading References: <3.0.5.32.19981203132052.0085a8a0@amati.techno.com> <199812031841.NAA25169@hesketh.net> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <3.0.5.32.19981203141822.009c0740@amati.techno.com> <3.0.5.32.19981203151735.009ca720@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <36670B9F.5DBD7B13@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > 1. The same effect can be provided by supertype data content notations > (using data attributes, which XML doesn't support) Agreed. "Blast and damn [the people who kept data attributes out]! May they all suffer from elephantiasis, locomotor ataxy, and ingrown toenails!" -- _Murder Must Advertise_ (somewhat repurposed) > 2. having only two levels of typing seems either insufficient or > unnecessarily limiting. Not so. MIME types may have more than two levels, but must have at least two, and the requirement for creating a new top-level type is stringent. > 3. It assumes that the resource is something for which distinctions like > text or not-text are even relevant. It may not be, because the data type > may be entirely abstract (like an SGML architecture or grove construction > process). MIME types are a syntax standard: they tell you how to interpret an octet-stream as something or other: currently, a picture, a sound, a character stream, a video stream, application-specific data, a model of a physical object, a message, or an aggregate of one or more of these things. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 22:16:39 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: ANN: "media-types.dtd" Message-ID: <36670D9A.73747CF6@locke.ccil.org> This is to announce the creation (thanks to IANA and Perl) of a DTD fragment which declares all the currently known Internet media types (aka MIME types) as XML notations. Media type attributes are not mapped. The DTD fragment is located at: http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/media-types.dtd The MIME types are mapped as follows: / becomes _, _ becomes __, and $ becomes _DLR_, to avoid characters illegal in XML Names. Comments solicited. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Dec 3 22:20:29 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent References: Message-ID: <36670E2A.1679B087@locke.ccil.org> Eric A. Stephens scripsit: > What I'm looking to do is have different ATTLIST defs for the element TYPE > depending on the element that TYPE is contained within. In a word, XML validation can't do it. You have to declare the attribute list definitions to be a union of the two cases, and depend on hand-rolled validation inside the application to do the job. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From housel at pacbell.net Thu Dec 3 22:33:20 1998 From: housel at pacbell.net (Peter Housel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" Message-ID: <001901be1f0c$d11167c0$e2a3989d@nb.rss.rockwell.com> >This is to announce the creation (thanks to IANA and Perl) >of a DTD fragment which declares all the currently known >Internet media types (aka MIME types) as XML notations. >Media type attributes are not mapped. >Comments solicited. Doesn't the HyTime spec define Formal System Identifiers for MIME types? Why not use those instead of the http://www.isi.edu/? -Peter S. Housel- housel@acm.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Thu Dec 3 23:59:52 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> (eliot@dns.isogen.com) Message-ID: <199812032357.SAA11092@ruby.ora.com> I suspect this is going to be long-winded, mostly because I'm replying to Eliot. So a summary: MIME types or notations eventually come down to a magic word of some sort. MIME types work now; notations don't yet. I want a notation to make it *go*, not tell me what to read to make something to make it go. Since we're not all using the same programming language, magic cookies are the only workable solution; MIME combines this with robust, well-defined fallback behavior. [W. Eliot Kimber] > Unless I've misunderstood something, a MIME type is still an > indirection to the definition of that MIME type. In the epistemological sense, yes. In the real world, though, it's a key into a hash of handlers in your software. And since the list of keys is well-known, the success rate of using a given key is pretty good. > I.e., "text/xml" is a pointer to the RFC that establishes that MIME > type. But then a problem is: where do I got to figure out what RFC a > given MIME type maps to? You go to the IANA, the designated authority for MIME. When you get a public notation identifier, where do you go? Oops... there was a ten-year delay in establishing a registry, and now the one registrar has about eight owners registered, of which one (the ISO) already had a formal reference mechanism. So you can get a catalog that resolves the public identifier to... what? A DLL? A Java class? That's portable. The indirection keeps getting pushed farther down the line. MIME says, "This is the list of things. Here's what they are. If you implement this thing, this is the name to look for." It's a magic cookie system, but it's a robust one that works very, very well. > What if the MIME type is an "x-*" MIME type, what do I do then? > Note that the external ID for a notation could, in theory be a MIME > type: > > Early in XML's development, there was talk up at the formalism level that system identifiers were HyTime FSIs, but only FSIs were allowed, and were the default, so the tag was omitted. This left room for expansion into other system identifier types. I argued that the default for notation system identifiers should be treated similarly, but the default should be , allowing > The short answer is that they are a highly general way to associate > data objects with the definition of the rules that governs the > interpretation of that data object. I like the phrase "highly general way". HyTime is a highly general way to associate any piece of information in any format anywhere in the world with any other piece of information in any format anywhere in the world. And about six people actually understand it, and three of them have been institutionalized from the shock. (HyTime II is much better, thank you, Eliot.) In other words, it's so general that it's useless. It can be made useful with certain user conventions, like that the public identifier is treated as a magic string that is just known, or that the system identifier is a piece of software usable within a closed system. But otherwise, it's like SGML without a stylesheet standard, or public identifiers without a resolution mechanism. > I think that the Web and Windows have established an unreasonable > expectation that software will "just know" how to deal with things. > Unfortunately, you can't always rely on registered MIME types and > magic numbers. I don't think the expectation is at all unreasonable. The software *does* "just know" nearly all of the time. The MIME specification was developed in the Internet, where what works, wins. The most important aspect of MIME is its hierarchicality(?): types, sub-types, sub-sub-types, ad infinitum. Like with RFC 1738 language specifications, you can make a reasonable guess about an entity even if you don't recognize the whole MIME type. An old browser, confronted with text/xml, will say, "Oh... I don't know about xml, but I can do text. Here ya go." And the user will see markup, but it'll be sensible. > Perhaps part of the problem is that in the Web world we have tended > to remove the need for such a generalized mechanism by hard-coding > knowledge of the semantics of everything? But you can't do that > forever, and MIME only seems to make the problem worse by requiring > that all interchangable types be registered before they can be > used. Unlike notations, which will work by magic without telling anyone what they are. > Notations don't require that because the external ID of a > notation can be anything (including MIME types or their RFC > documents). Yay... so all my software has to handle is... anything. Fun. I love abstract theory. But in the end, it comes down to software *doing something* with what it gets. A function whose range is unbounded across the set of the universe is not a useful function. A notation for planets whose system identifier is a bibref to Magrathea's operating manual is not of very much use to me. At least with application/planet I know that it's an application, but not one I handle, and can ask the user for suggestions. Before anyone misconstrues my position (too late!) I don't have anything at all against the ISO process. (I only say this because I know there are some people who *seem* to hold a grudge against the ISO or the W3C or both.) I love the abstraction of SGML and HyTime. But notation identifiers have always seemed to me to be a bizarre bit of Pollyannaism, and the constant use of system identifiers in examples blew my mind the first time I read the standard. For all that SGML is of great utility for open systems, it shows definite signs of having grown up in a pre-Internet world where openness and portability were much smaller words. > But I do mind: if I see "x-whatever/whatever", how do I know where > to look, as a programmer or document recipient, to understand what > the rules for that MIME type are? And after you've looked, then what? Designing a system that tells programmers where to go to implement a processor for a new notation is bizarre. Most users are not programmers, and the idea that a notation would point to a formal spec would shatter their heads. They want a notation to point to something that will do it for them. In the absence of a One World Programming Language (pipe down, Python heads), a hierarchical magic cookie system works best. > If someone gives you a document with a useless external ID for a > notation, that's a problem between you and the author of that > document and no mechanism can fix that problem. And the difference between this and MIME is... that with a well- defined registry of notation types, and hierarchical fall-back system, a useless external ID is far less likely. > But it's not just about *viewing*, it's about processing of all > sorts. Pulling down a plug-in for viewing a particular kind of data > is only one small application of notations. If you are only > thinking about the problem in terms of viewing things on the Web, > then you are missing the point. Take viewing as one form of possible processing, used here as an example. The problem is one of finding the processor, and MIME types are equally good at finding the processor for analyzing as they are for viewing. [Simon St.Laurent] > I still argue that notations are a waste of time based on the > misguided notion that information about dependencies (of whatever > type) actually belongs in the document. Only "document" in the sense that the document as an informational unit necessarily includes the description of its type. Notations (whether MIME or otherwise) are associated with the type of a document; like common entities, common notations should be defined in common files. > Let the dependent pieces be self-describing (MIME or something > better), Now, I think you may be falling into the trap Eliot describes. MIME entities aren't self-describing; they're wrapped in headers that describe them. And someone still has to understand that description; it's just that the MIME implementations are more robust and flexible, with better fall-back behavior, then SGML notations. [W. Eliot Kimber] > You're right, the URL for the XML spec is not sufficient (but > neither is "", since you need to know what thing defines what > that magic number means). The URL for the XML spec is *equally* useful to a processor as is "", "text/xml", and "foobie bletch". Assuming of course, that each string is used in a system designed to understand it. The namespec specification uses uses URIs, but they are essentially magic cookies. When used with a stylesheets, the URIs are compared. When fed to a processor (like XSL's xsl: and fo: namespaces), the processor is expected to either recognize the URI on sight, or else isn't a processor for that data type. This is exactly like MIME without fallback. > In thinking about it, I think the only thing that will be reliable is to > depend on a non-electronic, human-primary, long-term repository like the > Library of Congress. > > Thus, the declaration for XML as a notation should be something like: > > PUBLIC "+//IDN loc.us.gov//NOTATION TZ 1234:W3C eXtensible Markup Language > (XML) Recommendation 1.0//EN" > > For cyberarchæology, that works well. You can find the spec and re-implement a processor. But as a user, I want to use the data I got, not write a bloody parser for it myself. And (once again) since we don't have universally portable software, you can't give me a pointer to a chunk of code. It's got to be a well-recognized name, and MIME provides this better than any other system. Whew. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Fri Dec 4 01:06:36 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" In-Reply-To: <001901be1f0c$d11167c0$e2a3989d@nb.rss.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203183718.008eee80@amati.techno.com> At 02:32 PM 12/3/98 -0800, Peter Housel wrote: >>This is to announce the creation (thanks to IANA and Perl) >>of a DTD fragment which declares all the currently known >>Internet media types (aka MIME types) as XML notations. >>Media type attributes are not mapped. >>Comments solicited. > >Doesn't the HyTime spec define Formal System Identifiers for MIME types? >Why not use those instead of the http://www.isi.edu/? Yes indeed it does: A.6.7.3.4 Notation processor storage managers The starter set notation storage manager is: mimetype The SOI is the MIME type and subtype optionally followed by parameters, specified as they would be in the field body of a Content-Type header field in the header of an Internet mail message. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Fri Dec 4 01:06:39 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <199812032357.SAA11092@ruby.ora.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19981203124857.009cf870@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981203190259.009f1200@amati.techno.com> At 06:57 PM 12/3/98 -0500, Chris Maden wrote: >MIME types or notations eventually come down to a magic word of some >sort. MIME types work now; notations don't yet. > >I want a notation to make it *go*, not tell me what to read to make >something to make it go. Since we're not all using the same >programming language, magic cookies are the only workable solution; >MIME combines this with robust, well-defined fallback behavior. Let's try this code from my PHyLIS tool, which associates grove constructor objects (COM objects in this case, because I'm implementing on Windows), with the external IDs for the notations those grove constructors support. A grove constructor is a software component that takes an entity (or another grove or subgrove) as input and constructs a grove from it. Grove constructors are associated with the notations they understand. PHyLIS, as a generalized tool, lets you create and plug in grove constructors for any data content notation. An entry from the configuration file for PHyLIS looks like this: PHyLISlib.SPSGMLGC sgml SGML ISO 8879:1986//NOTATION Standard Generalized Markup Language//EN The code below reads the configuration and sets up a table that maps the notation external IDs to the grove constructor software object. This is, as far as I can tell, just what you do with MIME types. I could, in fact, I suppose, support the association of grove constructors with MIME types as well (I get that for free if they are used as notation external IDs). Note that this dependence on notations (and, by implication, entity declarations) doesn't preclude doing MIME-only based association of resources addressed by means other than entity with grove constructors, but that's not how the HyTime standard is currently defined (nor, I think, should it be). When I create an XLink-only version of PHyLIS, of course I'll have to do that (because it will still be grove based, of course). ' At this point, we've parsed the configuration doc and found a grovecon element. This ' bit is in a loop that iterates over the grovecon elements. Set gcelem = PHyLISlib.child_of_type(workelem, "grovecon") ' gcelem is grovecon element Do While Not gcelem Is Nothing Set workelem = PHyLISlib.element_child(gcelem, 1) ' workelem should be COM-progid elem If Not workelem Is Nothing Then With mobjGroveManager If workelem.Gi = "COM-progid" Then progid = PHyLISlib.Data(workelem) Set workgc = mobjGroveManager.CreateGroveCon(progid) ' Instantiate the object If Err.Number <> 0 Then MsgBox "Error: Unable to create grove constructor object." Else ' At this point, workelem is COM-progid Set workelem = PHyLISlib.next_element_sibling(workelem) Do While Not workelem Is Nothing If workelem.Gi = "notation-extid" Then extid = PHyLISlib.Data(workelem) '------------------ ' !!! HERE IT IS: '------------------ mobjGroveManager.RegisterGroveCon workgc, extid ' This function adds an entry to table that lets you look up the ' grove constructor by notation external ID. End If Set workelem = PHyLISlib.next_element_sibling(workelem) Loop End If End If End With End If Set gcelem = PHyLISlib.next_element_sibling(gcelem) Loop This is a system that provides completely generalized support for associating notations with notation-specific processors. The same technique is used to bind processors for other types of notations (query notations, storage manager notations, property sets, viewable object notations, etc.). I haven't implemented support for superclass notations (for fallback), but I plan to. My plan is to have PHyLIS prompt for user intervention when it encounters a notation for which it doesn't have an available component. You should be able to find and download a grove structor (should one exist) or renderer for a particular property set, plug in, add it to the mapping table, and off you go. This is no different from following a link to a resource for which you have no renderer or plug-in available (or correctly registered on your machine) and having to figure out what to do about it (I was always having this problem with VRML--now I have the opposite problem, IE5B2 thinks all .gz files are VRML worlds--I had to disabuse it of that notion right away, unfortunately, it took a rather heavy blow to do it). I ship PHyLIS with a default configuration, of course, just as your Web browser comes with a default set of MIME-to-object mappings. If all you need is what PHyLIS provides out of the box, you'll never have to worry about it, just as with Web browsers. But if someone gives you a document with a unqiue notation, they better also provide you with the necessary constructors and renderers, or it's just a text file--but that's always the case. The use or non-use of notations or MIME types can't change that. All that notations or MIME types are about is providing a way that reasonably persistent names for things can have some reasonably intelligble mapping to a definition of what they are so that tools like PHyLIS and Web browsers and the users of those tools have some hope of configuring things correctly. But they aren't magic--they don't remove the need for humans, usually users of individual computers, to keep their systems configured appropriately and they can't eliminate the problem of getting data that your system doesn't yet know how to deal with it. That's why, in the end, it always comes back to documentation for humans--at some point some human has to know that "foo" means "this kind of data" and has to know that on their system at that point in time, software component X is the appropriate tool to use on that data. Nothing about MIME or notations can change this. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Dec 4 03:44:17 1998 From: david at megginson.com (david@megginson.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: Are notations dead, or just pining for the fjords? (was Re: SAX and delayed entity loading) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <13927.22585.430980.525437@localhost.localdomain> W. Eliot Kimber writes: > Of course, the use or non-use of entities and notations is a data > management choice that has to be made on a case-by-case > basis. There are certainly classes of document for which the > indirection of entities does not provide sufficient benefit to > justify the cost. But that isn't the case for all XML documents. > > So saying that entities and notations are non-starters is, I think, > a bit strong. Perhaps, but I'm speaking from a business perspective rather than a technical one. I have seen almost no use of notations and unparsed entities in any type of XML application (other than demos by a few old-guard SGML types like Eliot and me). It seems that SGML's logical structure has sold well to the XML world, but its physical structure is gathering dust on the shelf (what if we renamed external entities to "parser-side includes"?). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Dec 4 10:03:00 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: Persistent identifiers (was SAX and delayed entity loading) Message-ID: <007201be1f6c$9be92730$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> -----Original Message from: W. Eliot Kimber >If the XML spec had a Library of Congress number (it may, for all I know),... I'd like to know whether it does! The editor of a journal I am associated with has a strong distaste for citations in the form of URL's, on the basis that (a) they tend to disappear, and (b) even if they stay around, the contents often change. Is there any way an author can produce an acceptable scholarly citation that references the XML standard? More importantly, is there any guarantee that a researcher in 100 years' time will be able to find a copy of the XML standard? Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Fri Dec 4 11:15:05 1998 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:56 2004 Subject: Seeking advice on placement of DOM XML parser Message-ID: <007e01be1f76$4592c080$0c01a8c0@vsnl.net.in> Sorry for the length. Hello, I am developing a client side application which expects a DOM object tree of an XML stream coming from the server as a result of an HTTP request. To provide the app. with the DOM tree, a DOM XML parser will sit in between the XML stream and my app. The parser will convert the XML stream to a DOM object tree and pass it on to my application. I am confused about where to place the DOM XML parser I have thought of 2 places where the parser could reside but am not sure which place in better. I'd be grateful if someone could help. XML DOM PARSER POSITIONS I THOUGHT OF 1) Any browser which supports XML should have an inbuilt XML parser. Assuming the parser is a DOM complaint one I could use the browser inbuilt parser to get the DOM tree of a served XML stream. This would mean - that an XML stream would first go to a browser - then I would have to trap the browser processing when a DOM tree is formed - Retrieve the DOM tree - Pass it on to my app. 2) Use a stand alone DOM XML parser which I could incorporate into my app.This would mean - that an XML stream would come straight to the XML parser in my app. bypassing the browser totally - the XML parser would produce the DOM tree - The DOM tree would then be passed to the app. QUESTIONS 1) Which of the 2 approaches should I use for the DOM tree generation and why? 2) Any existing samples/applications which expect DOM trees as input for processing XML data and how they manage to get the DOM trees? Thanks in advance for any replies, AMIT -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981204/af41dcca/attachment.htm From estephen at appliedtheory.com Fri Dec 4 13:37:05 1998 From: estephen at appliedtheory.com (Eric A. Stephens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent In-Reply-To: <36670E2A.1679B087@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: After re-reading the spec last night it became (more) apparent that something like this would be the case. Thanks. On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, John Cowan wrote: > Eric A. Stephens scripsit: > > > What I'm looking to do is have different ATTLIST defs for the element TYPE > > depending on the element that TYPE is contained within. > > In a word, XML validation can't do it. You have to declare the > attribute list definitions to be a union of the two cases, and > depend on hand-rolled validation inside the application to do the > job. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. > You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. > Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > Eric A. Stephens estephen@AppliedTheory.com Software Engineering Group http://www.AppliedTheory.com AppliedTheory Communications, Inc. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arabbit at earthlink.net Fri Dec 4 14:08:02 1998 From: arabbit at earthlink.net (Paul Butkiewicz) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: XMLNet (Version < 1.0 ) available! Message-ID: <000501be1f8f$801e3400$9f39bfa8@arabbit> OK, since my whole endeavor is considerably less fun when only five other people know about it, I'd like to join the list of people who are perverting XML and the DOM for other uses: "XMLNet is an API for streaming XML. Using XMLNet, information can be transferred over the internet or other network in real time as a series of XML documents immediately and with high frequency on a schedule determined by a server, as opposed to relying upon requests from clients. These documents are delivered, one after another, on continuously open sockets to connected clients and delivered to objects in that client as Document Object Model (DOM) Document's, an open standard for representing XML documents as objects. Client objects can subscribe to any of these documents through the well-known Observer design pattern simply by implementing an interface and specifying what document or documents it would like to receive." Did that make any sense? Basically the scheme is that client connects to a server and specifies "rivers" of documents and specific documents to listen for. As these documents become available they are sent directly to the client. Whoever is writing code to support these documents need only implement an interface and register with the client to receive whatever document it is the object should expect, similar to java's event and bean property change model. Now, obviously if the server is sending documents like the *Bible* or *War and Peace*, this isn't going to work very well. But if the server is sending many smaller documents which describe changes in a system, for example, this can be a very useful thing. A client connects and receives documents which describe the entire system, and then the client receives documents afterward which describe changes in the system in real time. I won't impose my biases about what this could be useful for, like real time news feeds, providing real-time metadata for TV or streaming media, monitoring applications over the network, etc., because folks might come up with all sorts of new and creative ways of using this if I don't taint them. :) Wow, that was considerably more coherent that what I put up on the web. Anyway, I think the current version is stable enough to do some damage, and you can find more information (actually the same information I just gave you, except more obtuse) and a download at http://home.earthlink.net/~arabbit/xmlnet/ If you'd like the source code for this or to actually use this or to become involved with it, please drop me a line at arabbit@earthlink.net. If you have comments, please drop me a line at the same email address --- I *crave* feedback. And despite what your parents may have said about, "If you don't have anything nice to say. . .", negative feedback is far and away the most useful. Just don't mind me if I get defensive. :) Oh, right, before I forget --- XMLNet only works with IBM's parser right now. And it's written in Java. Isn't everything? Paul Butkiewicz arabbit@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~arabbit/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 4 14:34:28 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" References: <001901be1f0c$d11167c0$e2a3989d@nb.rss.rockwell.com> Message-ID: <3667F2CB.68897691@locke.ccil.org> Peter Housel wrote: > Doesn't the HyTime spec define Formal System Identifiers for MIME types? > Why not use those instead of the http://www.isi.edu/? Because FSIs are incompatible with XML, which requires system identifiers to be URLs or URNs. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 4 14:40:32 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: ANN: "media-types.dtd" References: <199812032312.PAA23267@mehitabel.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <3667F40A.B4B7262A@locke.ccil.org> Murray Altheim wrote: > Does this document have any authority? None whatever. It is provided in the hope that it may be useful, but with no warranty implicit or explicit, including implicit warranties of merchantability or fitness, etc. etc. etc. > You've used the IETF ownerid, but > I see no authorization to create a work within their namespace. Is there > some IETF document (I-D, RFC, etc.) to justify this usage? Since the FPIs begin with "-", you are free to suppose that "IETF" stands for Intensional Existential Textuality Fanatics. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 4 15:00:41 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Are notations dead, or just pining for the fjords? (was Re: SAX and delayed entity loading) References: <002c01be1e53$9122fa20$160016c0@jfinity1> <13925.62782.619867.226109@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.5.32.19981203101205.008b93a0@amati.techno.com> <13927.22585.430980.525437@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3667F853.77CC53CF@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson scripsit: > I have seen almost no use of notations and unparsed > entities in any type of XML application (other than demos by a few > old-guard SGML types like Eliot and me). As I noted before, elements and attributes were familiar from HTML, and DTDs add obvious value (even though many are not using them either), but notations are not explained anywhere, so non-(SGML geeks) can't be blamed for not using them. Yet. Education and time will take care of this point. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 4 15:03:41 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Persistent identifiers (was SAX and delayed entity loading) References: <007201be1f6c$9be92730$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <3667F998.9C0AD28F@locke.ccil.org> Michael Kay wrote: > More importantly, is > there any guarantee that a researcher in 100 years' time will be able to > find a copy of the XML standard? Given the existence of weapons of mass destruction, there is no way to guarantee the *existence* of any researchers in 100 years. We all do the best we can. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rob at robco-inc.com Fri Dec 4 15:19:44 1998 From: rob at robco-inc.com (Rob Williams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFEF@ris3.robco-inc.com> I'm helping a company get a stalled intranet done and one of the major things they are looking to do is make their policies and procedures manual available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes sense to mark it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client (browser) as HTML? I'm planning to use one of the XML Java parsers and just fetch the text and then have some way of reading styles from a CSS file and applying them as I stream it out. Thanks for any advice, Rob Williams RobCo Incorporated xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Dec 4 15:48:58 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFEF@ris3.robco-inc.com> Message-ID: <000001be1f9c$ebd6ba70$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > I'm helping a company ... make their policies and procedures manual > available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes > sense to mark > it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and > subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of > marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client > (browser) as HTML? Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on this list, but to my mind it gives the best performance and the least system complexity. Of course if you're planning a fancy interactive experience for your readers the answer might be different. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tallen at sonic.net Fri Dec 4 15:50:47 1998 From: tallen at sonic.net (Terry Allen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" Message-ID: <199812041550.HAA10939@bolt.sonic.net> Eliot, | PUBLIC "-//IETF/RFC1521//NOTATION FSISM PORTABLE | MIME Content Type//EN" did ISO get IETF approval for use of "IETF" as the owner identifier string? note that there is an IETF-sanctioned project to assign URNs to MIME types. regards, Terry Palm Tree Books Buying & selling books on the Islamic world, POB 123 particularly Islamic art, architecture, & archaeology Occidental, CA 95465 catalogue: http://www.sonic.net/~tallen/palmtree/ voice/fax 707-874-1501 * e-mail tallen[at]sonic.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rob at robco-inc.com Fri Dec 4 16:06:31 1998 From: rob at robco-inc.com (Rob Williams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFF3@ris3.robco-inc.com> Michael: Thanks for the vote of encouragement. As for generating the HTML and storing it in static form I thought about that but then I thought, well most accesses to the document are going to be to very particular little pieces, i.e., they will see a topic list or search for something and get back a list of sections and then most accesses should just be per topic (which might only be a couple of paragraphs). Here's how I saw that happening (and PLEASE feel free to shine a light on this, I am truly an XML newbie): 1. I create a TOC and a document map of some sort. (I know I don't really need these things in XML since the document structure itself holds the document side and when browsers support it they will be able to just present the view side.) So what I'm talking about here is being able to say read all the chapter tags and present them through a servlet, so the user goes to the opening page to our document and gets something that looks like this: Policies and Procedures I. Overview II. Employment Practices III. Compensation and benefits A. Benefit Time for Employees and of course each one would be a URL which would invoke the same servlet w/a different parameter. So for instance the URL for Compensation and Benefits might be: www.acme.com/servlet/pnpmanual?chapter=3 2. My servlet would respond by asking for Chapter 3 through the parser (as I understand it this is where SAX comes in, right? I am looking for an excerpt so a scan of the tags occurs instead of reading in the whole document? Well, then again, since this servlet is going to be serving this document up to all comers, if it does build the whole thing in memory maybe that isn't such a disaster?). 3. Anyway, once I get back the text from the node I've requested, then I am going to just stream it out using the response stream of the servlet to the user. Finally, in thinking about the application of styles, maybe what I should do is allow them to goof w/an XSL file on the server and then just apply the style info to the XML before it gets streamed to the filter to be translated into HTML? Thanks, Rob Williams RobCo Incorporated -----Original Message----- From: Michael Kay [mailto:M.H.Kay@eng.icl.co.uk] Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:44 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: Storing XML/Streaming HTML > I'm helping a company ... make their policies and procedures manual > available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes > sense to mark > it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and > subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of > marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client > (browser) as HTML? Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on this list, but to my mind it gives the best performance and the least system complexity. Of course if you're planning a fancy interactive experience for your readers the answer might be different. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Fri Dec 4 16:17:00 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" In-Reply-To: <199812041550.HAA10939@bolt.sonic.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204101329.0084dca0@amati.techno.com> At 07:50 AM 12/4/98 -0800, Terry Allen wrote: >Eliot, > >| PUBLIC "-//IETF/RFC1521//NOTATION FSISM PORTABLE >| MIME Content Type//EN" > >did ISO get IETF approval for use of "IETF" as the owner >identifier string? That would be a no. It's a fair cop, but society's to blame.... Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Fri Dec 4 16:27:01 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <000001be1f9c$ebd6ba70$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk > References: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFEF@ris3.robco-inc.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204101924.009534e0@amati.techno.com> At 03:44 PM 12/4/98 -0000, Michael Kay wrote: >> I'm helping a company ... make their policies and procedures manual >> available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes >> sense to mark >> it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and >> subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of >> marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client >> (browser) as HTML? > >Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this >is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the >generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on >this list, but to my mind it gives the best performance and the least system >complexity. Of course if you're planning a fancy interactive experience for >your readers the answer might be different. It's a very effective technique. There are also commercial tools like DynaWeb, Dual Prism, and SIM that will do it for you and provide high-quality search and retrieval. See the "tools" section of Robin Cover's SGML/XML Web site for pointers (). One downside with pregenerating the HTML is that you don't get the enhanced search and retrieval that XML enables. A document like a policy and procedures manual that is presumably supporting people in critical work is an ideal candidate for highest-possible-quality search and retrieval. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From liamquin at interlog.com Fri Dec 4 16:36:24 1998 From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Are notations dead, or just pining for the fjords? (was Re: SAX and delayed entity loading) In-Reply-To: <13927.22585.430980.525437@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: david@megginson.com replied to Eliot: [...] > Perhaps, but I'm speaking from a business perspective rather than a > technical one. I have seen almost no use of notations and unparsed > entities in any type of XML application (other than demos by a few > old-guard SGML types like Eliot and me). It seems that SGML's logical > structure has sold well to the XML world, but its physical structure > is gathering dust on the shelf There are several fairly big problems with notations as defined. (1) the suggestion that one use the system identifier as a program to run makes them a major security hole. the following document illustrates this: ]> (actually any attempt to access the contents of the fmt entity, with or without notation, is likely to crash many older windows systems, but that's another issue.) (2) the idea that you know the format in advance of images or other referenced objects and hard-wire it into your document does not fit the web model of content negotiation, in which the client sends a list of formats, in order of preference, and the server send back the best available format, converting if necessary. Yes, there are servers that do this, including the widely used Apache. One way round this is to use MIME types instead. ]>Here is my picture (3) the idea that the document should understand the file formats that are supported by all software to process that document, now and in the future, is patently absurd. Even giving a list of formats, as im my example uinder (2) above, is inappropriate for many applications. (4) there is no way to give a notation for XML, since, by definition, any external entity with an associated notation is an unparsed entity! The distinction between parsed/unparsed should be nothing to do with the format at all. Notation was one of those extra features in XML that might have been better left behind, I think. > (what if we renamed external entities to "parser-side includes"?). The word "entity" confuses many people who come to XML (and SGML!) for the first time. For one thing, it's already used in the relation database world to mean something entirely different. For another thing, XML has at least five meanings for the word entity -- and even the XML specification doesn't always say which kind it means at any given point. But since XML doesn't define "parse", just "includes" might be better :-) Frankly, the term "file" would be better for an external entity. Lee -- Liam Quin, GroveWare Inc., Toronto; The barefoot agitator l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tallen at sonic.net Fri Dec 4 16:38:39 1998 From: tallen at sonic.net (Terry Allen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: "media-types.dtd" Message-ID: <199812041637.IAA12285@bolt.sonic.net> | >Eliot, | > | >| PUBLIC "-//IETF/RFC1521//NOTATION FSISM PORTABLE | >| MIME Content Type//EN" | > | >did ISO get IETF approval for use of "IETF" as the owner | >identifier string? | | That would be a no. It's a fair cop, but society's to blame.... no, the people who misused someone else's owner ID are to blame. They are flying someone else's colors. this is an ISO-assigned FPI, so it should identify ISO as the owner. If you misuse the FPI mechanism in such an manner, how can you ask others to take seriously its utility? regards, Terry xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From indiketr at churchill.co.uk Fri Dec 4 16:44:54 1998 From: indiketr at churchill.co.uk (Rajeeva Indiketiya) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: I am new to XML Message-ID: Hi All I am from a document processing background. I used troff (a Unix document formatting tool) to define document. It was great but nobody support it any more. Then I looked at PostScript but then again it is not an ideal document formatting language although you could convert PostScript to PDF and show the document on a WEB browser. I looked in to HTML but then you cannot publish documents and allow everybody to define what is Heading 1

. I was interested in finding a document formatting language that is not proprietary but allows to print on printers, show the exact document on a browser or store it so it can be stored/retrieved later. So I was told that SGML and or XML can define exact f onts, sizes and formatting commands and show the exact copy of a print out on a browser. Q1> How true is the above statement. Q2> Is there a book like Dummy's Guide to XML Q3> Can you give me some good WWW site references for XML (W3C is not good for a begginer.) Thank you Rajeeva \\\|/// \\ - - // ( @ @ ) +--------------------oOOo-(_)-oOOo--------------------------+ | Rajeeva V Indiketiya, IT Dev, Churchill Insurance. | | E-mail : indiketr@churchill.co.uk | | tel : 0181 313 5691 | +-----------------------------Oooo--------------------------+ oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) Any views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Fri Dec 4 17:47:35 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard Message-ID: James Robertson wrote: > | > NY > | > | It's a neat way of doing it, since checking is optional and > | transparent to non-checking applications. > > Wouldn't this be better placed in a DTD? > > By adding a fixed, pre-set attribute with the regexp to > element definitions in the DTD, you can enforce consistency. Absolutely. Now, how would you specify that some pattern should be used for a particular element (or attribute) contents? > Otherwise, can't the user just choose to use this or not, > on an individual, ad-hoc basis? Yea, not such a good thing. > All that being said, I am of the belief that all of > this should be placed in application code. How about a new layer between XML and the application? The layer (a) filters SAX-like 'messages' (function/procedure calls) from the parser to the application and applies patterns to data as necessary, generating new messages or (b) can be applied to a DOM implementation to check the validity of a document more completely. I'm guessing here, but perhaps there's something we could specify (in XML of course) that provides this validity information. As a separate document with its own structure, it could be developed on its own track so as to not add more cruft to XML and checking for applications that don't need it. > XML isn't a solution to any problem, it is a storage and > interchange format for applications ... Well, in a sense, yes. All of the interchange formats that I've delt with (we call them protocols :-), don't stop at the structure of the message but also specify what is acceptable content. > Why try to cram the entire world of computing > science into XML? I wasn't going to try and do that in this thread... :-) Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > No, not specific to a language mapping, that belongs in some API or SAX > > reference not in XML. > > That's what I meant (I think). It would make SAX a whole lot > more complex, though, if it has to understand e.g. standardised > dates, and return some kind of date object (or struct) when it > encounters one. OK, so keep it out of SAX. The work of translating "1.5" into 1.5 has to get done someplace, is done in a very similar way by lots of applications, and seems ripe for standardization. IMHO, it doesn't seem like a huge leap to go from XML documents that contain just text to ones that contain atomic types (boolean, integer, float for starters). I assume that date formats have even more variations than numbers, at least until there is agreement on a stardate! So stick with simple things like binding a regexp pattern to content. There will be debates about a date being an atomic type or a structure (I tend to think of them as integers with a really bad number base). There shouldn't be any need for structure parsing because structures will already be described by the XML document being parsed. > I would have thought it would be simple, but then again, > I'm culturally biased, and hadn't read the Unicode regexp > document. Oh horror! :-) It looks 'hard', but doesn't seem like there's any more real complexity than what hasn't already been solved by some very talented folks. In particular it is written... > (Regular expression syntax varies widely: the issues discussed > here would need to be adapted to the syntax of the particular > implementation.) This pattern definition/association document (this beast needs a name!) can make all that hand wringing and the "levels of support" go away. No need for funky esacpe characters, escaped escape characters, misinterpretation of parens, brackets, braces, stars...gag! Here is a start... ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ 0123456789 _$ BTW, if I'm not using 'id' and 'idref' correctly, please forgive me, I'm still very new at this! I'd be happy to take more discussion off-line if it doesn't belong in xml-dev. In the mean time I'll draft a DTD of this for feedback. Joel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 4 17:54:26 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:57 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard References: Message-ID: <366821A8.E1CBC592@locke.ccil.org> Joel Bender wrote: > How about a new layer between XML and the application? The layer (a) > filters SAX-like 'messages' (function/procedure calls) from the parser to > the application and applies patterns to data as necessary, generating new > messages Did you say "filters SAX"? Head to my web page (see below) to get hold of a useful framework. > or (b) can be applied to a DOM implementation to check the > validity of a document more completely. Also on that page: DOMParser, which walks a DOM and generates SAX events from it. > I assume that date formats have even more variations than numbers, at least > until there is agreement on a stardate! Actually ISO 8601 is slowly gaining on its competitors, and has a good chance of winning. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Dec 4 18:19:36 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard In-Reply-To: <366821A8.E1CBC592@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <000201be1fb1$f2ec2fb0$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > > I assume that date formats have even more variations than > > numbers, at least until there is agreement on a stardate! > > Actually ISO 8601 is slowly gaining on its competitors, and has a > good chance of winning. Except among astronomers, who have used "stardates" for years, or more correctly Julian Day Numbers, i.e. the number of days since 1 Jan 4713 BC. Mike Kay on stardate 2451152 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Fri Dec 4 18:41:04 1998 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Persistent identifiers (was SAX and delayed entity loading) In-Reply-To: <007201be1f6c$9be92730$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk > Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981204102125.01116290@library.berkeley.edu> At 09:58 AM 12/4/1998 -0000, Michael Kay wrote: > >-----Original Message from: W. Eliot Kimber >>If the XML spec had a Library of Congress number (it may, for all I >know),... > >I'd like to know whether it does! Not as far as I've been able to determine. It's not in LOCIS (LC's catalog), and given the nature of the W3C (an industry consortium, and not a formal standards organization), it's entirely possible the spec. won't get into LC's catalogers' hands, unless it does go through a formal standards body, and even then, it might not get a LCCN; I'm looking at a catalog record for the ISO standard on Bibliographic Filing Principles, and apparently *it* doesn't have a LCCN. >The editor of a journal I am associated >with has a strong distaste for citations in the form of URL's, on the basis >that (a) they tend to disappear, and (b) even if they stay around, the >contents often change. Is there any way an author can produce an acceptable >scholarly citation that references the XML standard? Sure. The theory behind scholarly citation is to provide enough information regarding the work in question to enable others to locate it. If I was preparing a citation for the XML spec in APA styling, I'd probably use the following: Bray, T., Paoli, J., & Sperberg-McQueen, C.M. (Eds.). (1998). Extensible Markup Language (XML) 1.0: W3C recommendation 10-Feb-98 [Online]. World Wide Web Consortium. Available: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 [1998, December 4]. I share your editor's distaste for URLs, but until URNs are widely used, they provide the most effective means of enabling scholars to obtain a resource. Not providing them at this point does a disservice to those who want to locate the information. > More importantly, is >there any guarantee that a researcher in 100 years' time will be able to >find a copy of the XML standard? No, but as has already been mentioned, keeping a resource available is a decision made by libraries and other organizations based on their notion of the resource's potential use/value. If the specification is important enough, information regarding it will be made maintained; if not, it will be lost, like 99% of the information produced. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bckman at ix.netcom.com Fri Dec 4 18:44:29 1998 From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <005601be1fb5$ff1d3b40$28aedccf@ix.netcom.com> Michael, you can do what you want to do very simply by using ASP and the new MS msxml.dll. (sent with the latest IE5Beta)together with the DOM. just use 'getElementsByTagName' wrap the content in a suitable HTML wrapper,and send these to the client as an HTML stream. Frank Frank Boumphrey XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com CoAuthor: Professional XML applications from Wrox Press, www.wrox.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Rob Williams To: Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 11:05 AM Subject: RE: Storing XML/Streaming HTML >Michael: > >Thanks for the vote of encouragement. As for generating the HTML and storing >it in static form I thought about that but then I thought, well most >accesses to the document are going to be to very particular little pieces, >i.e., they will see a topic list or search for something and get back a list >of sections and then most accesses should just be per topic (which might >only be a couple of paragraphs). Here's how I saw that happening (and PLEASE >feel free to shine a light on this, I am truly an XML newbie): > 1. I create a TOC and a document map of some sort. (I know I don't >really need these things in XML since the document structure itself holds >the document side and when browsers support it they will be able to just >present the view side.) So what I'm talking about here is being able to say >read all the chapter tags and present them through a servlet, so the user >goes to the opening page to our document and gets something that looks like >this: > > Policies and Procedures > I. Overview > II. Employment Practices > III. Compensation and benefits > A. Benefit Time for Employees > >and of course each one would be a URL which would invoke the same servlet >w/a different parameter. So for instance the URL for Compensation and >Benefits might be: > www.acme.com/servlet/pnpmanual?chapter=3 > 2. My servlet would respond by asking for Chapter 3 through the >parser (as I understand it this is where SAX comes in, right? I am looking >for an excerpt so a scan of the tags occurs instead of reading in the whole >document? Well, then again, since this servlet is going to be serving this >document up to all comers, if it does build the whole thing in memory maybe >that isn't such a disaster?). > 3. Anyway, once I get back the text from the node I've requested, >then I am going to just stream it out using the response stream of the >servlet to the user. Finally, in thinking about the application of styles, >maybe what I should do is allow them to goof w/an XSL file on the server and >then just apply the style info to the XML before it gets streamed to the >filter to be translated into HTML? > >Thanks, > >Rob Williams >RobCo Incorporated > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Michael Kay [mailto:M.H.Kay@eng.icl.co.uk] >Sent: Friday, December 04, 1998 7:44 AM >To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Subject: RE: Storing XML/Streaming HTML > > >> I'm helping a company ... make their policies and procedures manual >> available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes >> sense to mark >> it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and >> subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of >> marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client >> (browser) as HTML? > >Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this >is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the >generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on >this list, but to my mind it gives the best performance and the least system >complexity. Of course if you're planning a fancy interactive experience for >your readers the answer might be different. > >Mike Kay > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following >message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Fri Dec 4 20:20:55 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Notations (was SAX and delayed entity loading) Message-ID: John Cowan wrote: > Notations that govern elements through the use of a NOTATION > attribute are a powerful feature for describing the syntax > of what's in the element, as is shown by the repeated attempts > to reinvent them in various schema proposals. So my brain spew about regexp patterns and a DTD for them could somehow be bound to particular element contents or an attribute value? If they are being repeatedly re-invented in schema proposals, then folks don't have enough information and they are filling in their own blanks as best they can. Myself included. In it is written: > They may additionally resolve the external identifier into the > system identifier, file name, or other information needed to > allow the application to call a processor for data in the notation > described. Do you have an example of a SYSTEM or PUBLIC id, with the coorisponding description, I can look at? I haven't found any XML examples that use , so I don't have any way to know how well it fits (or doesn't). W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > But it's not just about *viewing*, it's about processing of all > sorts. I hate to be a pill, but could you nail this down a little more? In light of the discussion of what does or does not belong in the application and parser, is there some specific kind of processing that the designers intended for ? Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >> How would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, > >> why one earth would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy > >> overkill. > > > >To say what the internal syntax of the attribute value is. > > > > Er, yes, that's overkill, like I said. Nuclear weapons to kill > gnats and all that. I don't think its overkill, all I want is a nice formal mechanism for saying my WIDTH attribute of my BOX element is an integer. If a schema can do that, cool. If a notation can refer to a schema and support mime types along with it, fine. Whatever mechanism should be able to support patterns like those that appear in the XML 1.0 spec, which is not complicated. If there are rules that allow the translation of correctly matching content to atomic data in the DOM, even better. In my mind, MIME types can do this for some types of data but doesn't have simple atomic types defined, i.e., text/integer. Joel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Fri Dec 4 21:49:30 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: SAX and delayed entity loading In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981203190259.009f1200@amati.techno.com> (eliot@dns.isogen.com) Message-ID: <199812042147.QAA21776@ruby.ora.com> [W. Eliot Kimber] > Let's try this code from my PHyLIS tool, which associates grove > constructor objects (COM objects in this case, because I'm > implementing on Windows), with the external IDs for the notations > those grove constructors support. A grove constructor is a software > component that takes an entity (or another grove or subgrove) as > input and constructs a grove from it. I don't think anyone was arguing that it's not possible to associate notations with processing. Here's why MIME is better than notations for general use: o Usable in and out of XML. MIME is meaningful to MIME processors; notations are meaningful to XML processors. XML processors can easily be MIME processors; the reverse is not true, especially for legacy reasons. o Hierarchical. MIME has built-in fallback behavior. Notations do not. You've shown that it's possible to implement fallback, but it's not inherent in the system. o Interchangeable. MIME works now, and it works well. Notations *could* work in interchange, but they don't now. If you give someone a notation declaration, odds are good that their software won't immediately know what to do with things in that notation. o Flexible. As Liam pointed out, data notation information properly belongs with an entity. XML stores that information with the *reference* to the entity, a place where the information is not always know. So, I would recommend that we standardize an FPI for MIME itself, and use that as the notation declaration for any external entity. The processor can then determine the actual data content notation of the entity just as it would for any other object (explicit MIME type, file extension lookup) and take appropriate action. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri Dec 4 22:50:42 1998 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981204144626.00d4d6c4@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:44 PM 12/4/98 -0000, Michael Kay wrote: >Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this >is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the >generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on >this list Really? Seems like good sound practice to me, at this point in history. Also then you can use one of the free full-text packages to search the generated HTML and do lots of other neat tricks, too. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Sat Dec 5 00:45:16 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML References: <3.0.32.19981204144626.00d4d6c4@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <36706A87.6B51@hiwaay.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 03:44 PM 12/4/98 -0000, Michael Kay wrote: > >Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this > >is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the > >generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on > >this list > > Really? Seems like good sound practice to me, at this point in history. > Also then you can use one of the free full-text packages to search the > generated HTML and do lots of other neat tricks, too. -Tim I agree with Tim. I do this for the local knowledge base and it enables me to publish to the IIS server with metatags it can recognize while also keeping the metadata where I want it for searching in MS Access. I used to call this a File-forward or lobster trap. That is, the HTML doesn't roll back into the database. It's a good way to work and no different from distribution on fixed media except the indexing services of IIS. BTW: when you do this, do you autogenerate the TOC and send it with the document, or keep it separate? This comes up in discussions of HTMLHelp systems which create HTML but compile it for distribution. I realize some of these practices originate in WinHelp. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Suli.Ding at geis.ge.com Sat Dec 5 03:54:44 1998 From: Suli.Ding at geis.ge.com (Ding, Suli (GEIS)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: document to XML conversion Message-ID: Philipp, I modified the template files (both the original and the XML one) to make the LIN segment and the related segments a new HEADER. The output comes out just the way you want it. The template files are attached with this e-mail. Thanks, Suli (P.s. I will make the change to the template files in my page at http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Platform/4871/ to reflect the changes) <> <> From: "Philipp Schaumann" To: Cc: "Soo TuckYan" , "Jacob Morrison" Subject: document to XML conversion Date: Fri, 4 Dec 1998 11:47:32 +0800 HI, I looked at your document-to-XML converter, quite interesting and very smartly done. :-) However, the problem that I had been thinking about seems not (yet ?) implemented in this. The challenge that I see is how to get a hierarchical structure into the documents when converting from EDI (which contains an implicit hierarchy, e.g. for line item loops, but is basically syntactically flat). XML can support hierarchies very nicely. What I mean is the following: In EDIFACT (and X.12) you have various repeating groups, e.g. in your sample ORDERS document the line items. In EDIFACT, you recognize that you are in the second instance of the line items loop when you encounter the second LIN segment. In XML, I would hope for a , which is ended by and which includes all the information for this line item. Your converter does not seem to allow this. Looking at your sample output, the bracket for the first item does not contain the other segments that also belong to the first line item. What I was hoping for was output that looks like this: 1 136-804-086 BP CM316X7R474K16AT MG 21:9000:PK 0.053:CT:1:PK 4 AVX MF 1 21 9000 PK 002 1 21 2000 PK 002 2 ..... The idea is that everything that belongs to 1 line item is group together. Would that be possible using your syntax. Thanks Philipp begin 600 unb.tbl M2$146%0]/#]X;6P@=F5R59E5)E;#TH,BPR$-O9&4]9C0-"G1R86EL97(]54Y4#0HC#0IH96%D97(]3$E.#0I2 M240]3$E.+"!,24Y314<]6TQI;DYU;3UF,2P@3$E.,#(]9C(L($ET96U.=6T] M*#,L,',I+"!)=&5M5'D]*#,L,7,I+"!33$EN9#TH-"PP3TH,BPQ5%F3TH,2PQ5)E;#TB*#(L,G,I(CX-"@D\4DE$(&UA=&-H/2)5 M3D@B/@T*"0D\37-G5'E)1#XH,BPP3X-"@D)/$1O8TE$/B@R+#!S*3PO M1&]C240^#0H)/"]2240^#0H)/%))1"!M871C:#TB4D5&(CX-"@D)/%)E9E%F M$-O9&4^9C0\+T-U3XH,RPQ3X-"@D)("`@(#Q33$EN9#XH-"PP3XH,BPQ References: Message-ID: * Rajeeva Indiketiya | | I was interested in finding a document formatting language that is | not proprietary but allows to print on printers, show the exact | document on a browser or store it so it can be stored/retrieved | later. So I was told that SGML and or XML can define exact fonts, | sizes and formatting commands and show the exact copy of a print out | on a browser. SGML and XML are usually used to separate the layout from the contents of documents. This is useful for doing automated processing on your documents (this may be far more useful than you initially think) and also for keeping your documents readable for long periods of time. (Can you read any of the word processing formats you used in 1986? SGML documents from 1986 are still as readable as SGML documents from yesterday.) It sounds like you want PDF, but I think you should seriously consider producing PDF from SGML/XML rather than storing your documents in some unprocesseable format. | Q2> Is there a book like Dummy's Guide to XML Dummies Guide to XML exists, but whether it's a good idea to buy it is another thing. I'll leave the recommendations to people who have actually read some intro books. | Q3> Can you give me some good WWW site references for XML --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Sun Dec 6 02:00:25 1998 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <773251A595CFD111B8F800A0C998C55102CFEF@ris3.robco-inc.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19981206124706.00c59c80@steptwo.com.au> At 01:19 5/12/1998 , you wrote: | I'm helping a company get a stalled intranet done and one of the major | things they are looking to do is make their policies and procedures manual | available as an online reference. I am thinking that it makes sense to mark | it up as XML: it is 1000 pages and contains lots of chapters and | subheadings. Anyway, the question is, have people gone this route yet, of | marking up some text in XML and then streaming it to the client (browser) as | HTML? I'm planning to use one of the XML Java parsers and just fetch the | text and then have some way of reading styles from a CSS file and applying | them as I stream it out. Rob, I will try hard to restrain myself when discussing this: I've been working on a solution in exactly this area for the last year, and there are a lot of issues to cover. I am also in the process of helping to design an intranet solution for a major client, so I am keenly aware of the issues surrounding such things. First off, I would strongly encourage you to think of this as a communication problem, not a technical problem. That is: what is the best way to communicate vital information to the readers of the manual? The biggest example of this: paper form information is normally not suitable for presentation on-line, as it is designed for linear reading, not hypertext jumping about. Also, I think you will find that creating effective methods of navigation will be just as important as the content itself. Therefore, a few questions for you: * How will you author and maintain the content? * What format is the current document, and how do you plan to get it into XML? * Are you planning to do usability testing on the online layout and structure? * Will you still need to produce a paper copy? * If so, will you have to maintain one copy of the information, or two? In summary, it is very easy to focus on the technical aspects of such a project, and create an online form that no-one can, or wants to, use. This is particularly important in the environment you have briefly described: they have already had one pass at a successful intranet and failed. Simply adding a lot of extra pages of "stuff" will not necessarily improve the situation ... That being said, I've created a solution for a client that involved a custom-written authoring environment for a manual consisting of 7000+ pages (insurance underwriting material). This then gets exported to SGML, and published into WinHelp, RTF, and HTML. Works like a charm, but not a trivial exercise by any means. Hope this helps, James ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Sun Dec 6 15:34:41 1998 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:58 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent References: Message-ID: <366AA486.E563DB28@mecomnet.de> i note that the xml-names-19980916 draft leave some room for hope that this might become possible. presume, for the sake of argument, that the standard eventually attends to prefix/namespace bindings within the dtd. in that event, the clause on "The Per-Element-Type Partitions" in appendix A.2 describes the distinct names which could identify such attributes: "Each type in the All Element Types Partition has an associated namespace in which appear the names of the unqualified attributes that are provided for that element. This is a traditional namespace because the appearance of duplicate attribute names on an element is forbidden by XML 1.0. The combination of the attribute name with the element's type and namespace name uniquely identifies each unqualified attribute." it would remain only to establish namespace scoping rules for an ATTLIST form similar to those for the element instances in order to to be able to differentiate identity among the encoded attribute names. Eric A. Stephens wrote: > > After re-reading the spec last night it became (more) apparent that > something like this would be the case. > > Thanks. > > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, John Cowan wrote: > > > Eric A. Stephens scripsit: > > > > > What I'm looking to do is have different ATTLIST defs for the element TYPE > > > depending on the element that TYPE is contained within. > > > > In a word, XML validation can't do it. You have to declare the > > attribute list definitions to be a union of the two cases, and > > depend on hand-rolled validation inside the application to do the > > job. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon Dec 7 01:09:21 1998 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Make my day! In-Reply-To: <366AA486.E563DB28@mecomnet.de> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981206170907.00988b30@scripting.com> We have a dynamic application, a web-based discussion board that's also an XML application. We're working with other developers on Shockwave and Java renderings of this site, but it just occurred to me that one could do a nice MSIE5-based interface using XSL and DHTML. So this is a call to anyone who knows how to do these things (I don't) and wants to do a site that displays content managed on another server, in XML. This is a real-world opportunity for great demo-ware. It would make a great demo for any company with an XML-capable browser. (You know who you are!) http://discuss.userland.com/topics.xml http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader.xml$858 Make my day! Dave PS: For the boring HTML interface, http://discuss.userland.com/ ----------------------------- http://www.scriptingnews.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From f.lindgren at upright.se Mon Dec 7 09:58:12 1998 From: f.lindgren at upright.se (Fredrik Lindgren) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Why XML data typing is hard References: Message-ID: <366BA5CF.F9DB603@upright.se> Joel Bender wrote: [snip] > > OK, so keep it out of SAX. The work of translating "1.5" into 1.5 has to > get done someplace, is done in a very similar way by lots of applications, > and seems ripe for standardization. IMHO, it doesn't seem like a huge leap > to go from XML documents that contain just text to ones that contain atomic > types (boolean, integer, float for starters). > I always thought that the problem was about defining the the textual representations of values that should be understood by an XML-processor and therefor used by who/what-ever writes the document. I don't see the point in just defining that an element is a boolean value when this can be represented be (true/false), (1/0) and (yes/no). The same problem arise when it comes to integers, "15" and "FF" are both strings representing the same value. To my knowledge both need to be parsed before they can be used. This could be hidden by the programming language you use but the XML-document should IMO be language independant. Regexp patterns might be a way to go to specify the allowed representations, but the real need IMO is to specify what the representation means, and for interoperability reasons agree on standard representations for some set of data types. I think it is important that such standard representations of data types should be based on intended meaning and not computer representation. An integer data type might need to be specified with a min and a max value - it should not be specified as "a 32 bit integer" If in the future a data typing functionality was added to the XML familly of standards the processor could get these boudaries and decide on how to store the value internally. > I assume that date formats have even more variations than numbers, at least > until there is agreement on a stardate! So stick with simple things like > binding a regexp pattern to content. There will be debates about a date > being an atomic type or a structure (I tend to think of them as integers > with a really bad number base). There shouldn't be any need for structure > parsing because structures will already be described by the XML document > being parsed. > > > I would have thought it would be simple, but then again, > > I'm culturally biased, and hadn't read the Unicode regexp > > document. Oh horror! > > :-) It looks 'hard', but doesn't seem like there's any more real > complexity than what hasn't already been solved by some very talented > folks. In particular it is written... > > > (Regular expression syntax varies widely: the issues discussed > > here would need to be adapted to the syntax of the particular > > implementation.) > > This pattern definition/association document (this beast needs a name!) can > make all that hand wringing and the "levels of support" go away. No need > for funky esacpe characters, escaped escape characters, misinterpretation > of parens, brackets, braces, stars...gag! > > Here is a start... > > > ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ > > > 0123456789 > > > _$ > > > > > > > > > What does the attribute value "1" represent? > > > > > > > > > > > > BTW, if I'm not using 'id' and 'idref' correctly, please forgive me, I'm > still very new at this! I'd be happy to take more discussion off-line if > it doesn't belong in xml-dev. In the mean time I'll draft a DTD of this > for feedback. > > Joel > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Mon Dec 7 10:03:53 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <36706A87.6B51@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <000301be21c8$3a04c700$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> Len Bullard: > BTW: when you [Tim Bray] do this [generate HTML > from XML and store the HTML on the server], do > you autogenerate the TOC and send it with > the document, or keep it separate? You can see the way I did it for the New Testament on http://www.wokchorsoc.freeserve.co.uk/bible-nt/index.html Here I start with a single XML document for the whole work, which I split hierarchically into books and chapters; the HTML files are at the level of (a) a chapter, (b) a TOC for each book (c) a TOC for the whole work (d) miscellanea such as title page; these are displayed using frames. But of course the beauty is I could have split it any other way. One of my disappointments about XSL is that it does not yet seem to support this kind of rendition. (I did the processing, of course, using SAXON - 230 lines of code) Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Mon Dec 7 11:21:02 1998 From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Publication of W3C XML Fragment WG Requirements document Message-ID: <199812071116.DAA01514@boethius.eng.sun.com> [Len Bullard:] | This is to thank the chair and members of the XML Fragment Working Group | for making this document available publicly and for the open list by | which non-W3C members can submit comments. In line with a decision made during the organizational meeting in August that split the XML Activity into five parallel working groups, each WG will publish its requirements document and set up a mechanism for receiving comments from the public. Allowing for the holiday season, all of the initial requirements documents should be out for comment some time in January. Jon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Dec 7 12:41:05 1998 From: david at megginson.com (david@megginson.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981204144626.00d4d6c4@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19981204144626.00d4d6c4@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <13931.52094.582510.122416@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > At 03:44 PM 12/4/98 -0000, Michael Kay wrote: > >Author it in XML definitely. What I would do with it then, given that this > >is a static manual, is to generate HTML at publication time and store the > >generated HTML on the server in the normal way. That's heresy to many on > >this list > > Really? Seems like good sound practice to me, at this point in history. > Also then you can use one of the free full-text packages to search the > generated HTML and do lots of other neat tricks, too. -Tim I'm with Tim -- XML is a standard, not a religion. There are three good reasons to use XML: 1. A solid business and technological case for XML over the other alternatives. 2. Experimental research. 3. Pure aesthetic joy. I use XML for #3, but I insist that my customers use it only for #1 or #2; if not, there is the danger of 4. Hype which is the technological equivalent of deficit spending. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Dec 7 13:37:23 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: XLinkFilter, cont'd. Message-ID: <199812071336.IAA19660@hesketh.net> Work on XLinkFilter has progressed again. XLinkFilter can now identify the starting locations of inline elements using (simple) XPointers, making it easier to create XLink applications without having to put id attributes all over documents. A new component, the LocationFilter, also extends SAX ParserFilter, and keeps track of where in the document each element is. LocationFilter may prove a useful component by itself in other applications that need to bridge SAX-event processing with later reference to the document tree. XLinkFilter is now available under the Mozilla Public License and source is readily downloaded. I hope to start issuing distributions of files rather than updates to each file sometime this week, but jar archives containing all the code (including the two examples I have so far) are currently available. If anyone builds an application using XLinkFilter, please let me know and I'll gladly throw you a link. More information is available at http://www.simonstl.com/projects/xlinkfilter/. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth (December) Building XML Applications (January) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Mon Dec 7 15:25:29 1998 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <199812071525.KAA26482@chmls05.mediaone.net> Joel Bender wrote: >James Robertson wrote: >> XML isn't a solution to any problem, it is a storage and >> interchange format for applications ... > >Well, in a sense, yes. All of the interchange formats that >I've delt with (we call them protocols :-), don't stop at the >structure of the message but also specify what is acceptable content. Yes. For concrete examples, see the Financial Information Exchange (FIX) protocol at www.fixprotocol.org. Also, read about the UN/EDIFACT EDI message formats at www.disa.org. These are electronic commerce protocols in use by thousands of companies to execute billions in trade (these numbers are chump change when compared to relational database). Both provide for the basic data types: string(N), number(M.N), date/time. Both have had stated plans to migrate to XML for over a year now. Neither has done anything (at least not publicly) to this end in many months. IMHO, without a concise method of associating a data type with element and attribute values, they are better off without XML. Joel Bender wrote: > >Simon St.Laurent wrote: >> >> How would I apply a MIME type to an attribute? More important, >> >> why one earth would I want to? Seems like some pretty heavy >> >> overkill. >> > >> >To say what the internal syntax of the attribute value is. >> >> Er, yes, that's overkill, like I said. Nuclear weapons to kill >> gnats and all that. > >I don't think its overkill, all I want is a nice formal mechanism >for saying my WIDTH attribute of my BOX element is an integer. If >a schema can do that, cool. If a notation can refer to a schema >and support mime types along with it, fine. Whatever mechanism >should be able to support patterns like those that appear in the >XML 1.0 spec, which is not complicated. If there are rules that >allow the translation of correctly matching content to atomic data >in the DOM, even better. In my mind, MIME types can do this for some >types of data but doesn't have simple atomic types defined, >i.e., text/integer. Well put, Joel. Notations appear to me to be the best way to declare the atomic types. I humbly submit that a well designed schema would include a set of notation declarations for its atomic types and perhaps a few middling complex types. In XML, there is no way to associate an attribute value with a Notation. Attributes can contain notation names for use in describing the element value. It is up to the application, however, to interpret the attribute name and value as descriptive of the element. According to Eliot K., some variant of SGML allows notations to be associated with attributes. Using: I would like to see the following syntax: Attribute Notations might look like: TimeStamp NDATA Iso8601_DateTime CDATA #REQUIRED OrderNum NDATA OrderNumCol ID #REQUIRED > Some notes: - The ability to associate Notations with attributes would have major advantages for mapping SQL data. This is because XPointer works well with attributes. Thus you can have well defined values *and* support compound keys. - Notation parameters would help a lot to map to real back end systems. E.g. "NDATA Integer(MaxDigits,4)" or "NDATA Float(Precision,10,Scale,4)" or "NDATA AlphaNum(MaxChars,12)". Whatever happened to "the easy stuff should be easy, the hard possible"? Working with basic data types should be easy! - For myself, I think of Notations more as logical data descriptions than as a method of finding an executable program to run. Given that XML element and attribute values are text, a Notation denotes how to transform the "native" data to and from text. As with MIME, implementations will vary. - A nice thing about Notation syntax is that it is all but transparent to non-validating parsers. The data may still be meaningful and useful for many purposes without interpreting Notations. - Notations might be useful in style sheets. E.g. render elements notated as "Float" a certain way. - Data types do not need standardization in XML - just the method of defining them. This would let the various groups defining standard business data types for XML work with a common syntax and avoid duplication of effort. ==================================================== A number of people have pointed out the benefits of deferring to existing MIME handlers for composite documents. Their arguments are convincing for composite documents. They are have little or no bearing on e-commerce applications. No one is trying to force the use of Notations anywhere. Just don't dismiss them because you aren't using them. There have been a couple real good suggestions: 1) a generic MIME notation used to defer to a MIME content handler and 2) when you know the content type, use a NOTATION for each mime type per John Cowan. There are many good approaches. The best in any given case depends on the application requirements. Regards, Charles Reitzel creitzel@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Mon Dec 7 15:37:54 1998 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <04a901be21f7$fcf361c0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> >Well put, Joel. Notations appear to me to be the best way to declare the >atomic types. I humbly submit that a well designed schema would include a >set of notation declarations for its atomic types and perhaps a few middling >complex types. Agreed. And to encourage reuse of notations, I am going to set up a section on SCHEMA.NET as a repository for notation declarations. John Cowan's are a great start. Any more. Let's actually put together some for some ISO8601 formats. >Attributes can contain notation names for use in describing the >element value. Correct, so why do you want: >I would like to see the following syntax: > when you can just have ? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Mon Dec 7 15:58:22 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Notations In-Reply-To: <199812071525.KAA26482@chmls05.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981207095216.00a33430@amati.techno.com> At 10:25 AM 12/7/98 -0500, Charles Reitzel wrote: >attribute name and value as descriptive of the element. According to Eliot >K., some variant of SGML allows notations to be associated with attributes. In TC2 to ISO 8879 (the Web SGML Adaptations, see ) we added a new attribute value type, "DATA", that lets you associate a notation name with an attribute in order to define the rules that govern the interpretation of the attribute value. The syntax is: Where "Iso8601_DateTime" is the name of a declaration notation. For element content, using NOTATION attribute is sufficient (and part of the existing SGML and XML specifications: However, I agree that being able to say this on the element type declaration directly would be convenient. We didn't consider this for the TC because it would be too much of a change to the existing syntax. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Mon Dec 7 15:58:40 1998 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:06:59 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: On collected NOTATIONS (re: James Tauber and the new SCHEMA.NET repository section) - note also http://www.ornl.gov/sgml/wg8/document/1958.htm (Using SGML Public Identifiers for Specifying Data Notations) -robin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Mon Dec 7 19:03:09 1998 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEB90@RED-MSG-08> The paragraph quoted below beginning "Each Type..." is intended only to describe scoping of attribute names matching the scoping expressed in DTDs today. That is, it simply says that the (unqualified) attlist for distinct elements types is distinct; that the unqualified attribute types of distinct element types are distinct. The namespaces proposal serves only to provide a mechanism for making names universally identifyable by associating them with Universal Resource Identifiers. It is silent on any possible or speculative facilities for defining syntax or semantics. -----Original Message----- From: james anderson [mailto:James.Anderson@mecomnet.de] Sent: Sunday, December 06, 1998 7:37 AM To: XML Dev Subject: Re: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent i note that the xml-names-19980916 draft leave some room for hope that this might become possible. presume, for the sake of argument, that the standard eventually attends to prefix/namespace bindings within the dtd. in that event, the clause on "The Per-Element-Type Partitions" in appendix A.2 describes the distinct names which could identify such attributes: "Each type in the All Element Types Partition has an associated namespace in which appear the names of the unqualified attributes that are provided for that element. This is a traditional namespace because the appearance of duplicate attribute names on an element is forbidden by XML 1.0. The combination of the attribute name with the element's type and namespace name uniquely identifies each unqualified attribute." it would remain only to establish namespace scoping rules for an ATTLIST form similar to those for the element instances in order to to be able to differentiate identity among the encoded attribute names. Eric A. Stephens wrote: > > After re-reading the spec last night it became (more) apparent that > something like this would be the case. > > Thanks. > > On Thu, 3 Dec 1998, John Cowan wrote: > > > Eric A. Stephens scripsit: > > > > > What I'm looking to do is have different ATTLIST defs for the element TYPE > > > depending on the element that TYPE is contained within. > > > > In a word, XML validation can't do it. You have to declare the > > attribute list definitions to be a union of the two cases, and > > depend on hand-rolled validation inside the application to do the > > job. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From akuchlin at cnri.reston.va.us Mon Dec 7 19:34:37 1998 From: akuchlin at cnri.reston.va.us (Andrew M. Kuchling) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Python/XML v0.5 released Message-ID: <13932.11522.982465.20714@amarok.cnri.reston.va.us> Version 0.5 of the Python/XML distribution can be downloaded from http://www.python.org/sigs/xml-sig/files/xml-0.5.tgz The Python/XML distribution contains the basic tools required for processing XML data using the Python programming language, assembled into one easy-to-install package. The distribution includes parsers and standard interfaces such as SAX and DOM, along with various other useful modules. Version 0.5 can be considered a beta release. Major changes in this version: * The DOM implementation has been extensively modified, and is now much closer to compliance with the DOM Recommendation. * A Unicode type has been added as the subpackage xml.unicode.wstring. * Various subpackages have been upgraded to their most recent versions. The package currently contains: * XML parsers: Pyexpat (Jack Jansen), xmlproc (Lars Marius Garshol), xmllib.py (Sjoerd Mullender) using the sgmlop.c accelerator module (Fredrik Lundh). * SAX interface (Lars Marius Garshol) * DOM interface (Stefane Fermigier, A.M. Kuchling) * xmlarch.py, for architectural forms processing (Geir Ove Gr?nmo) * Unicode wide-string module (Martin von L?wis) * Various utility modules and functions (various people) * Documentation and example programs (various people) The code is being developed bazaar-style by contributors from the Python XML Special Interest Group, so please send comments, questions, or bug reports to . For general information about Python, see: http://www.python.org The Python XML-SIG home page is: http://www.python.org/sigs/xml-sig/ -- A.M. Kuchling http://starship.skyport.net/crew/amk/ Problems worthy of attack / prove their worth by hitting back. -- Piet Hein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cvonsee at onramp.net Mon Dec 7 20:51:52 1998 From: cvonsee at onramp.net (Chris von See) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Character encodings Message-ID: <199812072051.OAA06215@mailhost.onramp.net> Hi, I am relatively new to XML and am trying to develop a program that can generate XML in various encodings. In section 4.3.3, the XML spec implies that support of ISO 10646 UCS-2 encoding (i.e. Unicode) is valid, but in the section on autodetection of encodings (Appendix F) there's no mention of how to detect UCS-2 encoding. I would *assume* that UCS-2 would start with \x00 \x3c\ x00 \x3f (" (message from Chris von See on Mon, 07 Dec 1998 14:49:57 -0600) Message-ID: <199812072056.PAA00267@ruby.ora.com> [Chris von See] > I am relatively new to XML and am trying to develop a program that > can generate XML in various encodings. In section 4.3.3, the XML > spec implies that support of ISO 10646 UCS-2 encoding (i.e. Unicode) > is valid, but in the section on autodetection of encodings (Appendix > F) there's no mention of how to detect UCS-2 encoding. I would > *assume* that UCS-2 would start with \x00 \x3c\ x00 \x3f (" that right? If so, then is the spec wrong in not including this in > Appendix F as valid? Is it reasonable to expect that many people > will use UCS-2 because of its similarity to Unicode? A UCS-2 file starts with the byte order mark (BOM), \xFEFF. The ordering of the two bytes shows whether the document is big-endian or little-endian. >From 4.3.3: Entities encoded in UTF-16 must begin with the Byte Order Mark described by ISO/IEC 10646 Annex E and Unicode Appendix B (the ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE character, #xFEFF). This is an encoding signature, not part of either the markup or the character data of the XML document. XML processors must be able to use this character to differentiate between UTF-8 and UTF-16 encoded documents. What's unsaid is that UCS-2 and UTF-16 are the same. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Dec 7 21:06:40 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Character encodings References: <199812072051.OAA06215@mailhost.onramp.net> Message-ID: <366C4332.926351B9@locke.ccil.org> Chris von See scripsit: > In section 4.3.3, the XML spec implies > that support of ISO 10646 UCS-2 encoding (i.e. Unicode) Unicode = UTF-16, not UCS-2. In practice there is no difference at the moment, because no 10646 planes other than the BMP (plane 0) contain any characters. UTF-16 = Unicode uses surrogate characters, whereas UCS-2 simply cannot represent the Astral Planes. Therefore, UTF-16 encoding should be used instead of UCS-2. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tomo at pervasive.com Mon Dec 7 23:00:43 1998 From: tomo at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Expat and line breaks Message-ID: <000201be2235$6372edc0$160410ac@nebula.everyware.com> Is there any way to get expat to preserve line breaks in element content? Should that even be possible as far as XML is concerned? Basically, I have some element content that I would like to remain untouched and yet I find that all of my carriage returns are changed to line feeds. I fear this is by design, as seems to be suggested by section 2.11 of the XML spec, but I was hoping there was a way to turn this off. I have tried wrapping the content in CDATA, to no avail. I have tried using the xml:space attribute, but expat barfs on that. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Tom Otvos Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc. "Try not! Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com Mon Dec 7 23:48:35 1998 From: nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com (Ogievetsky, Nikita) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: ID attibutes Message-ID: <9C998CDFE027D211B61300A0C9CF9AB4424695@SNYC11309> Hi, All. I have just started with XML and looked only at MSXML so far. I thought it would be quite natural for XML parser to return a node given it's ID attribute name and value. Please advise if anybody knows of a Java XML parser with such functionality. It would be also great to include a search method that would return a collection of nodes with matched patterns of childs/attributes. Regards, Nikita Ogievetsky. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Tue Dec 8 01:36:23 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML References: <000301be21c8$3a04c700$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <36746B04.7E8C@hiwaay.net> Michael Kay wrote: > > Len Bullard: > > BTW: when you [Tim Bray] do this [generate HTML > > from XML and store the HTML on the server], do > > you autogenerate the TOC and send it with > > the document, or keep it separate? > > You can see the way I did it for the New Testament on > http://www.wokchorsoc.freeserve.co.uk/bible-nt/index.html > Here I start with a single XML document for the whole work, which I split > hierarchically into books and chapters; the HTML files are at the level of > (a) a chapter, (b) a TOC for each book (c) a TOC for the whole work (d) > miscellanea such as title page; these are displayed using frames. But of > course the beauty is I could have split it any other way. One of my > disappointments about XSL is that it does not yet seem to support this kind > of rendition. (I did the processing, of course, using SAXON - 230 lines of > code) Very nice and an excellent reference. The question was general because it reflects a design decision when we bind from db sources. For example, some HTMLHelp designs put the TOCs into a separate file for use by the TreeView object. There are some advantages until one needs to reuse the document. As you say, one can do it many ways. I use a Treeview for the document type organization (eg, Articles(subtypes)) etc. because I want to use the TV dynamically based on query operations (eg, View By Author, View By Organization, By Status) and so on. While I can go ahead and populate the TreeView with a level of the internal topics since the anchors are generated, in this case, I choose to write these into the HTML file as a local HTML TOC. The reason simply is to keep them self-contained to publish them to the IIS server as well as the intranet location. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Tue Dec 8 01:40:46 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Publication of W3C XML Fragment WG Requirements document References: <199812071116.DAA01514@boethius.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <36746C11.408B@hiwaay.net> Jon Bosak wrote: > > [Len Bullard:] > > | This is to thank the chair and members of the XML Fragment Working Group > | for making this document available publicly and for the open list by > | which non-W3C members can submit comments. > > In line with a decision made during the organizational meeting in > August that split the XML Activity into five parallel working groups, > each WG will publish its requirements document and set up a mechanism > for receiving comments from the public. Allowing for the holiday > season, all of the initial requirements documents should be out for > comment some time in January. Then my compliments to the organizers as well and much success to all. I hope the drafts for the specs are timely and the gauntlet is rational. I'm sitting here creating a DTD for the first time in a few years. After a day spent in dllRegistryHell, it is relaxing. Thank you, Barnes and Noble. ;-) len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Dec 8 02:09:53 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Character encodings Message-ID: <003501be2250$0ae1c990$26f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Chris Maden >[Chris von See] >A UCS-2 file starts with the byte order mark (BOM), \xFEFF. The >ordering of the two bytes shows whether the document is big-endian or >little-endian. > >From 4.3.3: > > Entities encoded in UTF-16 must begin with the Byte Order Mark > described by ISO/IEC 10646 Annex E and Unicode Appendix B (the ZERO > WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE character, #xFEFF). This is an encoding > signature, not part of either the markup or the character data of the > XML document. XML processors must be able to use this character to > differentiate between UTF-8 and UTF-16 encoded documents. > >What's unsaid is that UCS-2 and UTF-16 are the same. After the encoding signature (i.e., 8 bit|16 bit|32 bit and endianness) has been detected (e.g., from the BOM) and the code family (e.g., ASCII code-superset or EBCDIC code- superset) then the XML encoding header can be read. This can contain usual header mechanism; the encoding attribute allows any IANA-registered character encoding name; you can explicitly specify "UTF-7", "UTF-8", "UTF-16" (don't use "UNICODE-1-1" ), "ISO-10646-UCS-2", or "ISO-10646-UCS-4". Actually, I cannot find UTF-16 in the IANA list at ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/character-sets I don't know which crack it has slipped down. But don't get caught up too much in the XML header. For web service, the MIME headers are the authority. The XML headers are there to make sure that the MIME headers can get their information from somewhere, and for systems that are using non-HTTP file access. (In otherwords, XML is a format developed for use with HTTP but it does not require HTTP.) Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Dec 8 07:30:58 1998 From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:00 2004 Subject: Publication of W3C XML Fragment WG Requirements document In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19981201091136.00c68604@pophost.arbortext.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981208040121.21bfcc9a@pop3.demon.co.uk> At 09:12 01/12/98 -0600, Paul Grosso wrote: > >W3C working groups and recognized liaison groups are invited to submit >comments to the mailing list given in the document. I am sending this >notice of publication to xml-dev to advise interested parties on this >mailing list about the publication of this document so that more people >will be aware of our proposed work. Both the document and the mailing >list to which comments are sent are public, and non-W3C members can >submit comments. While I encourage thoughful and concise comments from >members of xml-dev, please note that it is not feasible for all such >comments to be explicitly acknowledged by the working group. Also, >please be sure to read the documents and consider our scope before >making comments about what "would be nice." (We purposely defined >a somewhat limited scope for our current work.) > Many thanks for this mailing. This looks a very useful process, and I am very pleased that XML-DEV has the status of "liaison group". As PaulG says, it's valuable to consider submissions carefully, and if XML-DEV can act as a filter or concentrator beforehand, I would be pleased for it to be used in this way. Therefore if members of XML-DEV have potential contributions that should feel free to raise them here and get feedback from other XML-DEVers. P. Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic net connection VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Tue Dec 8 09:45:45 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Notations In-Reply-To: <04a901be21f7$fcf361c0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <000101be228e$dd056010$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Correct, so why do you want: > > > > > when you can just have > > > notation NOTATION (Iso8601_DateTime) #FIXED "Iso8601_DateTime"> > One minor problem, as I pointed out not so long ago, is that the latter declaration can be overridden in the internal DTD subset. So FIXED doesn't really mean FIXED at all. The real reason though is probably psychological. Us database folks have been so firmly educated to distinguish types from instances that we find it unnatural to implement an attribute of a type as if it were an immutable attribute of each instance. I can learn to live with it though! Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Tue Dec 8 10:27:07 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Describing tables in XML Message-ID: Hi, I am a XML newbie and trying to write my first DTD. One thing I want to delcare in my DTD is a table. Doesn't anynone know of samples or is there a "standard" way how to describe tables? Regards Anette Engel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tony.mcdonald at newcastle.ac.uk Tue Dec 8 10:37:47 1998 From: tony.mcdonald at newcastle.ac.uk (Tony McDonald) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Using expat to translate tags.. Message-ID: Hi, I'm using expat along with the XML support in PHP 3.0.6 (http://www.php.net) to do some machinations on some XML files I have. What I have is some XML like this...

&tab;MBBS STAGE 1: &line;Basic Cell Biology

(this was created with rtf2xml from Omnimark) and want to be able to change the XML so that I get something like; MBBS STAGE 1 - Basic Cell Biology (ok, I'll *actually* end up replacing heading_1 with H1...) ie, I want to output a different tag which is dependant on the value of the 'stylename' attribute. It seems that although expat will provide the start_element routine with information such as the tag and any attribute, the attributes are dropped when the end_element routine is called. This seems to make it difficult to close the tag properly.... Has anyone any ideas? Am I going about this wrongly? many thanks, tone ------ Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 Fax +44 191 222 5016 Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From majayg at iitk.ac.in Tue Dec 8 10:57:43 1998 From: majayg at iitk.ac.in (Ajay Gangwar) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: XML DTD parser Message-ID: <000901be2298$d5c98600$52a21090@cse.iitk.ernet.in> 1. Can someone please point me to a XML DTD parser? 2. In my application I want to be able to open an instance of the document's DTD independently so that I can query it. For me queries like the following would be pertinent : - What all elements are defined by the DTD? - Can an element 'x' be inserted as the child of 'y'? - What attributes are allowed by an element 'x'? - etc ... Is there a way to do this using any SAX parser? If not how do I go about achieving this? thanks, - Ajay Gangwar majayg@iitk.ac.in xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Tue Dec 8 11:16:21 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Describing tables in XML In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701be229b$81ffe8e0$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > I am a XML newbie and trying to write my first DTD. > One thing I want to delcare in my DTD is a table. "Table" can mean two things. It can mean data, as in a relational table, in which case you should use tags that reflect the objects and properties you are describing, e.g. JohnMaths MaryHistory Or it can mean a two-dimensional structure of rows and columns with undefined semantics, in which case you might as well use the HTML tags, leaving out any rendition attributes if you want to abstract away from the final appearance. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From grk at arlut.utexas.edu Tue Dec 8 15:07:53 1998 From: grk at arlut.utexas.edu (Glenn R. Kronschnabl) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Sorting/reordering XML files - Implementation/Design questions Message-ID: <199812081507.JAA10003@ns1.arlut.utexas.edu> [Note: this is cross-posted between perl-xml and xml-dev. I thought twice before I did this, but I couldn't talk myself out of it...] I have a very simple app that I want to do. Basically, I have an address list xml file built up using the vcard DTD, wrapped in a vCardSet. It looks like: Glenn Kronschnabl Kronschnabl Glenn UT Austin .... Note that the order of 's are not in any particular order. So, I would like to be able to sort (on family, given, etc) then print using both XSL/DSSSL. I am shooting for a telephone book-like printout ala Microsoft Outlook 2-column phone book printout. Q. Should I pre-sort using Perl-XML and XML::DOM and write out a new XML file? Right now I have been trying to use XML::DOM and I'm close but I'm not sure what I am trying to do even makes sense? The advantage of using the DOM is that I don't have to know anything about what I'm actually sorting accept for the relevant fields (the opposite would be to create the vCard data structure I guess). What are other people doing in this area? What is the best way? Should I rearrange the nodelist in memory or should I construct a new nodelist and write it out (not worrying about preserver whitespace)? -or- Q. Could this be done using just SAX? What are the tradeoffs? -or- Q. Should I sort the xml list in DSSSL (would appear painful, at least to me). I have found snippets in the dssslist that appear to give a good start, but if anyone has such a function around, that would help. Actually, I presume that both could be used. Just seems like a Perl-XML solution would be more generic and could be re-used more often. Thanks for you inputs. Cheers, Glenn -------------------- Glenn R. Kronschnabl Applied Research Laboratories | grk@arlut.utexas.edu (PGP/MIME ok) The University of Texas at Austin | http://www.arlut.utexas.edu/~grk PO Box 8029, Austin, TX 78713-8029 | (Ph) 512.835.3642 (FAX) 512.835.3808 10,000 Burnet Road, Austin, TX 78758 | ... but an Aggie at heart! xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Denis_Haskin at iacnet.com Tue Dec 8 15:15:31 1998 From: Denis_Haskin at iacnet.com (Denis_Haskin@iacnet.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: XML DTD parser Message-ID: <01J53B03MQYC8X96WZ@NOTELT.MED.IACNET.COM> I've just started using it so I don't have much in the way of details, but the IBM XML Parser for Java (http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/xml/) appears to have support for accessing the DTD. To quote from the API doc (com.ibm.xml.parser.DTD): "The DTD class implements the DocumentType interface as defined by the Document Object Model (DOM). The DTD defines the document class (type) and indicates where to find its syntactic grammar definition. " See also the XJParse sample, particularly using the -dtd option. dwh --- in re --- > 1. Can someone please point me to a XML DTD parser? > > 2. In my application I want to be able to open an instance of > the document's DTD independently so that I can query it. > [...etc...] xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Tue Dec 8 16:39:28 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: XML DTD parser Message-ID: I worked a bit with IBMs xml4j. In theParser Class, you can find the method readDTD() to open a DTD. For questions like - Can an element x be inserteted as the child of y Have a look at the mehtods of the DTD class. The DTD class offers for example two methods getInsertableElement() getappendableElement() to check which elements can be inserted at position or appended for an element. It offers also methods to extract element declaration getElementDeclaration() getElementDeclarations() or Attribut Declaration (of a specific element) getAttributDelcarations() getAttributDeclaration() Regards Anette Engel anette.engel@crpht.lu "Ajay Gangwar" on 12/08/98 11:52:22 AM Please respond to "Ajay Gangwar" To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Anette Engel/crmm) Subject: XML DTD parser 1. Can someone please point me to a XML DTD parser? 2. In my application I want to be able to open an instance of the document's DTD independently so that I can query it. For me queries like the following would be pertinent : - What all elements are defined by the DTD? - Can an element 'x' be inserted as the child of 'y'? - What attributes are allowed by an element 'x'? - etc ... Is there a way to do this using any SAX parser? If not how do I go about achieving this? thanks, - Ajay Gangwar majayg@iitk.ac.in xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Tue Dec 8 16:49:45 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: XML Parse, which resolves enitities Message-ID: Is there a ParseR, which resolves entities to external XML files. I'd like to split up my document into serveral files, like ]> &chap1; &chap2; Regards Anette Engel anette.engel@crpht.lu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Tue Dec 8 20:55:26 1998 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Using expat to translate tags.. Message-ID: <006501be238b$d62926c0$e53f868b@reggie> Tony wrote: >I'm using expat along with the XML support in PHP 3.0.6 >(http://www.php.net) to do some machinations on some XML files I have. Not being very familiar with Expat, this may overlook an obvious solution - if so, apologies in advance. >What I have is some XML like this... >

bold="on" charset="256" color="1">&tab;fontname="Arial" fontsize="72" bold="on" charset="256" color="1">MBBS STAGE >1: &line;italic="on" charset="256" color="1">Basic Cell Biology

> >(this was created with rtf2xml from Omnimark) > >and want to be able to change the XML so that I get something like; >MBBS STAGE 1 - Basic Cell Biology (ok, I'll >*actually* end up replacing heading_1 with H1...) > >ie, I want to output a different tag which is dependant on the value of the >'stylename' attribute. Since you're using it for the first stage anyway, I would write another OmniMark script to get the XML into the structure you desire. For the record, Rick Geimer wrote rtf2xml, not OmniMark, and although you could use any number of tools to carry out the next conversion stage, I'd bet money on what I think Rick uses. :-) Marcus Carr xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Tue Dec 8 21:37:23 1998 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <199812082137.QAA08290@chmls06.mediaone.net> Eliot Kimber wrote: |At 10:25 AM 12/7/98 -0500, Charles Reitzel wrote: | ||attribute name and value as descriptive of the element. According to Eliot ||K., some variant of SGML allows notations to be associated with attributes. | |In TC2 to ISO 8879 (the Web SGML Adaptations, see |) we added a new attribute |value type, "DATA", that lets you associate a notation name with an |attribute in order to define the rules that govern the interpretation of |the attribute value. The syntax is: | | I guessed pretty close! |Where "Iso8601_DateTime" is the name of a declaration notation. For element |content, using NOTATION attribute is sufficient (and part of the existing |SGML and XML specifications: | | | |However, I agree that being able to say this on the element type |declaration directly would be convenient. We didn't consider this for the |TC because it would be too much of a change to the existing syntax. Thanks to you and James T. for pointing this out. But there is no special pre-defined attribute named "notation", or am I missing something? Rereading the spec, yet again, I see it says (sec. 3.3.1): "A NOTATION attribute identifies a notation, declared in the DTD with associated system and/or public identifiers, to be used in interpreting the element to which the attribute is attached." So any and all NOTATION attributes are used to interpret the element. This is a bit vague for my taste, but I'll take it. Any number of NOTATION attributes are possible, so it could be unclear which controls the format of the element value. E.g. one might control the element value while another might be used to perform app specific content model validation not possible with a DTD alone. (if X is present, then Y is required, etc.). Regards, Charles Reitzel creitzel@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Tue Dec 8 23:10:25 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: Fredrik Lindgren writes: > I always thought that the problem was about defining the > textual representations of values that should be understood > by an XML-processor and therefor used by who/what-ever writes > the document. There are really two problems: (1) what pattern of character strings are acceptable for content (attribute value or element content) and (2) how should those patterns be mapped to atomic types? > I don't see the point in just defining that an element is a > boolean value when this can be represented be (true/false), > (1/0) and (yes/no). Correct, both the 'type' of value and the 'encoding' of the value must be specified. In the world of HVAC, booleans are also (set/reset), (open/closed), (enabled/disabled), and (on/off). They all represent a two-state condition, although some are represented as two-value enumerations so the typical boolean operators cannot be applied. > The same problem arise when it comes to integers, "15" and "FF" > are both strings representing the same value. Almost :-). I've seen hex contants coded as 0xF, x'F', %x"F", I'm sure there are others. > To my knowledge both need to be parsed before they can be used. Yes, some kind of parsing is necessary, someplace! > This could be hidden by the programming language you use but the > XML-document should IMO be language independant. At some point a determination has to be made about what languages/patterns will be acceptable. Should 'fifteen' also be supported? What are the tradeoffs in parsing complexity vs. universal acceptance and language independance? If the source and target of some communication using an XML document are both humans, most of us are quite flexable (even if seeing some form or other makes us irritated). Give me 'fifteen' in French and I'll be just as lost as my parsers :-). > Regexp patterns might be a way to go to specify the allowed > representations, but the real need IMO is to specify what the > representation means, and for interoperability reasons agree > on standard representations for some set of data types. Coming to a concensious on this point is a good first step! This moves the discussion away from the "XML is only document markup and not a protocol" camp. I'm not in the "XML as a replacement for CORBA" camp, but my applications do need to interoperate with others I'm not writing (including humans), so I'm a little closer to the latter than the former. > I think it is important that such standard representations of > data types should be based on intended meaning and not computer > representation. To be a little simplistic, the "%4d" formatting specification in C and (I4) in FORTRAN is such a standard. It defines both the character string representation and how that is translated to and from an internal (machine specific) form. The examples I've seen are culturally biased in that they use Arabic numbers, but in theory it is localizable. >> >> >> > > What does the attribute value "1" represent? > >> >> >> >> "1" means the group is optional, repeatable, etc. "0" means it is not optional, not repeatable, etc. I've tried to avoid design issues (which are mostly arbitrary), for example, is "" better or worse than ""? Or should I say ""? If we had a way to specify that the optional attribute is a boolean, that would be a help... :-) I would really like to say... ... But this is not support in the current standard. (At some point I would like to see support for attributes that don't have values, but that is for another thread. I intend to read the archives for this discussion.) Continuing the thread, James Tauber wrote: > Agreed. And to encourage reuse of notations, I am going to set up > a section on SCHEMA.NET as a repository for notation declarations. > John Cowan's are a great start. Any more. > > Let's actually put together some for some ISO8601 formats. Wheee! Count me in. :-) > > I would like to see the following syntax: > > > > when you can just have > > > notation NOTATION (Iso8601_DateTime) #FIXED "Iso8601_DateTime"> Can this be rolled along with parameters? Kinda like: I've gotten confused about the format of the value of the notation attribute, isn't it supposed to be a URL or URN? Or perhaps this is only supposed to apply to the notation description? I'm guessing here... The layers of standards and references to standards (that may or may not be working drafts of other standards) is driving me crazy! The XML spec says "associated system and/or public identifiers, to be used in interpreting the element to which the attribute is attached". From this I don't get the impression that is a URL or a URN, but "now for something completely different"... The idea that it can be "a reference into your schema or whatever you like" as Charles Reitzel wrote doesn't thrill me. It does bring a smile to my face when I think that I could simply say (which I know doesn't work)... All these clues are getting closer! Thanks everyone for helping me through this maze... Joel ------------------------------------------------------------------ Joel Bender Voice: 607-255-8880 Senior Programmer/Analyst FAX: 607-255-5377 Utilities Department 131 Humphreys Service Building Cornell University Ithaca, NY 14853-3701 ------------------------------------------------------------------ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pierlou at CAM.ORG Tue Dec 8 23:32:42 1998 From: pierlou at CAM.ORG (Pierre Morel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Describing tables in XML Message-ID: <003d01be2302$3ff39f70$01dcdcdc@pc010> :Hi, : :I am a XML newbie and trying to write my first DTD. :One thing I want to delcare in my DTD is a table. :Doesn't anynone know of samples or is there a :"standard" way how to describe tables? : :Regards :Anette Engel : I work with database and tables in a project. You can have a look at: http://www.pierlou.com/prototype/dbtext.htm root page: http://www.pierlou.com/prototype Pierre Morel Visual XML: http://www.pierlou.com/visxml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Wed Dec 9 01:23:49 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: MIME namespace... Message-ID: <002001be2312$a730cf90$160016c0@jfinity1> There are at least two schools of thought on the list vis-a-vis type identification of unparsed thingies (thingies is my placeholder for binary entities and links). The SGML school points to the rich infrastructure based on notations while the WWW school points to MIME. I tend to be in the WWW school. Anyway, in order to foster more discussion on the MIME front, I would like to suggest the idea of having a MIME namespace. BTW, I have not investigated this but am throwing it out in a mostly yeasty state for group baking. An example usage (with made up URLs) would be: Its a pretty picture I am assuming that links would be treated similarily to the "message/external-body" element in MIME. The MIME rfc can be found at: http://info.internet.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc/files/rfc2045.txt If this approach (or something similar) is viable, the question becomes what needs to happen to make this work? Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Dec 9 01:35:15 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <002e01be2314$63ba3ba0$55f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Joel Bender There are really two problems: (1) what pattern of character strings are >acceptable for content (attribute value or element content) and (2) how >should those patterns be mapped to atomic types? >...Both the 'type' of value and the 'encoding' of the value must be >specified. Which assumes that there are "atomic types" independent of domains. When we look at database or things liks XIF we can see that the types there are, in fact, storage types (how many bits does the binary representation fit into) rather than data types. So we have: * semantic 'type' (e.g. an RDF assertion connecting an element to * element 'type' name (or attribute name) (e.g. ); * architectural element 'type' name (or architectural attribute) (e.g., to point out a correspondence to an element type in some better-known DTD, e.g, ); * generic data 'type' (e.g. a number); * specific data 'type' (e.g. a cardinal); * storage 'type' (i.e. a storage constraint, e.g. fit into 32 bits); * lexical 'type' (e.g. "-", [0-9]+, ( ".", [0-9]+)? ) or * entity 'type' (e.g. a GIF file) All these things are what people expect for typing, from different domains. It would be nice if each was solved; I cannot see why we should expect any single "schema" language to solve all or most of them simultaneously however. The fact that there is so much blythe talk about schemas and such little apparant awareness that in fact a multitude of different things are being coralled together does not fill me full of confidence. There have been some attempts to disconnect atomic data typing from storage typing: * LISP bignums (a number can be any length of storage bits, the system allocates as much as you need); * SGML (you mark up what is most convenient and relevent for the documents, and then make the system designer figure out how to represent your types on the system they have); * perhaps languages like early BASIC and prolog too. XML has been explicitly designed with a different process model than SGML's: for "resolved" document delivery over the WWW. So the next question should be, for atomic types, is there anything in the nature of the WWW which promotes particular types: I would say that we get * URLs; * the types used in MIME headers (dates, languages, MIME type, etc); * Base64 (& perhaps uuencode); * text. So as a first step for defining types, I suggest that these are the only 'atomic' types which are universal to XML documents. Everything else (including numbers, let alone shorts!) is document-type-domain-dependent. I hope the W3C schema effort splits off Tim Bray's old suggestion for data types into a workign draft that can get some action fast. You can see the same process at work as happened in SGML: the fact that everyone's data-typing and storage-typing needs were (to everyone's surprise) so different meant that no data types were ever needed to be standardized. Rick Jelliffe P.S. My book "The XML & SGML Cookbook" has several chapters on notation-related issues for entities--Chapter 14: Data Content Notations for storage--Chapter 15: Formal System Identifiers for element--Chapter 16: Embedded Notations ISBN 0-13-614223-0 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Wed Dec 9 01:41:17 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:01 2004 Subject: MIME namespace... In-Reply-To: <002001be2312$a730cf90$160016c0@jfinity1> (begeddov@jfinity.com) Message-ID: <199812090139.UAA09831@ruby.ora.com> [Gabe Beged-Dov] > xmlns:mime="http://www.ietf.org/rfc2045" > mime:content-type="image/jpeg" > href="ftp://ftp.pictures.com/pretty.jpg"> > Its a pretty picture > It's a good proposal for embedding MIME information in documents. But one of the great values of MIME is its use with unknown quantities and content negotiation; depending on user settings and user agent capabilities, the pretty picture might be a PNG, a JPEG, a GIF, a BMP, or EPS. So if your resources are guaranteed to be in a single format, this is a good idea. But I'd rather leave content typing where it belongs, with the resource itself, not with the reference thereto. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Wed Dec 9 01:56:40 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: MIME namespace... Message-ID: <003301be2317$3bf89780$160016c0@jfinity1> >one of the great values of MIME is its use with unknown quantities and >content negotiation; depending on user settings and user agent >capabilities, the pretty picture might be a PNG, a JPEG, a GIF, a BMP, >or EPS. This is definitely the case with HTTP as the access method. That's why I used FTP in the example. There isn't any content negotiation in that case. The same is true of the "file" access method. In the case of HTTP, the content-type can be seen as more of a hint. Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From acmuller at human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp Wed Dec 9 06:18:10 1998 From: acmuller at human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp (Charles Muller) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: IBM's XML site Message-ID: <005101be233b$caf8d3e0$71ab89d2@dell> If someone hasn't already done so, please let me recommend Doug Tidwell's introductory tutorial articles on XML. Great for beginners like myself. See http://www.software.ibm.com/xml/education/buildappl/writedtd.html Regards, Charles Muller Resources for East Asian Language and Thought http://www.human.toyogakuen-u.ac.jp/~acmuller Toyo Gakuen University 1660 Hiregasaki, Nagareyama-shi Chiba 270-0161 Japan > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Dec 9 09:29:45 1998 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: XSchema typos fixed Message-ID: <01BE235E.164967C0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> A number of people found typos and minor wording problems in XSchema after the final version was released. These have been fixed (see below) and posted to the XSchema site. As always, the URL is http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xschema. -- Ron Bourret TYPOS: a) Section 2.3.2 and Appendix B: " " " "To declare that the Species element must ..." d) Section 2.3.6: "The Ref elements in an Choice element" ==> "The Ref elements in a Choice element" e) Section 3.2: In the second sentence of the second to last paragraph in this section, "nor does not" ==> "nor does it". f) Section 5.1.2: In the third sentence of the first paragraph (not counting the NOTE), "system is stops" ==> "system stops". MINOR CLARIFICATIONS a) Section 2.3.5: "The Mixed element in an XSchema document can contain only Ref elements;" ==> "The Mixed element in an XSchema document must contain only Ref elements;" b) Section 2.3.5: "The XSchema processor should ignore any frequency attributes in Ref elements that appear as subelements of the Mixed element." ==> "The XSchema processor must ignore any frequency attributes in Ref elements that appear as subelements of the Mixed element." c) Section 2.4: In the third paragraph "If [an attribute] uses a different namespace or does not apply to an element, its name must be unique within the Global Attribute Partition of its namespace." ==> "If [an attribute] uses a different namespace or does not apply to an element (that is, it is a global attribute), its name must be unique within the Global Attribute Partition of its namespace." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Wed Dec 9 10:01:38 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: XML Parse, which resolves enitities Message-ID: > Most do, including Sun's: but not xml4j from IBM: I wrote a little sample program, just parsing a document and then writing it to stdout. To my dissappointment the entities weren't resolved. I wrote the same program for Sun's Xml Parser, and I got the desired results. Regards Anette David Brownell on 12/08/98 09:08:19 PM To: Anette Engel/crmm cc: Subject: Re: XML Parse, which resolves enitities Most do, including Sun's: http://java.sun.com/jdc/earlyAccess/xml In fact I don't know any that won't do this by default. - Dave anette.engel@crpht.lu wrote: > > Is there a ParseR, which resolves entities to external XML files. > I'd like to split up my document into serveral files, like > > > > > ]> > > > &chap1; > &chap2; > > > > Regards > Anette Engel > anette.engel@crpht.lu > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Wed Dec 9 13:41:57 1998 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Are there any XML DOM tree to HTML DOM tree converters? Message-ID: <01ab01be2378$d676a520$0c01a8c0@vsnl.net.in> Hello, I am currently developing an XML application which will take an XML DOM tree as an input and needs to produce an HTML DOM tree from the XML DOM tree. 1) Are there any utilities/tools which do the XML DOM tree -> HTML DOM tree conversion? 2) In the absence of such converters what are the different ways in which I can achieve this purpose? Thanks in advance for any replies, AMIT xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Wed Dec 9 16:30:26 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: MIME namespace... Message-ID: <004e01be2391$2c998040$160016c0@jfinity1> In looking back through the xml-dev archives I see alot of threads that have touched on the area of using MIME like tags/attributes for handling binary content. Most of the discussion was relative to inlining binary content rather than linking. One distinction between most of these threads and this one was that I propose that we use the mime nomenclature and semantics as directly as possible (via the mime namespace) rather than mimicing them in xml via things like xml:content-type and xml:packing. The two mime names that are needed for inline binary entities are "mime:Content-type" and "mime:Content-transfer-encoding". The latter can only use the "base64" encoding for binary data as "7bit" and "8bit" clash with XML. If we can agree on a URI for the mime namespace, we could potentially start merrily transferring binary content inline in our XML documents. OK, so I'm a naive wild-eyed optimist :-). ~gabe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From db at Eng.Sun.COM Wed Dec 9 16:59:40 1998 From: db at Eng.Sun.COM (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Serializations and data structures (was Re: Topic MapsonSQL) References: <3.0.32.19981124141430.00ce2230@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.1.32.19981125132454.00a78ff8@ifi.uio.no> <3.0.1.32.19981125182127.006c6124@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <366EAB37.1C049C4F@eng.sun.com> Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > > Well, you can't very well transmit the data model itself between computers > or down through time. In other words: you must have the serialization > syntax. The question is: is an explicit specification of the data model > of any use? > > Tim seems to be saying no, claiming that it is 'ephemeral'. > > You + Len + Eliot seem to be claiming that without it the chance that we > don't interpret the syntax the same way is simply too great. > > As the argument stands it looks like checkmate to me. Because in fact the syntax and the data model are isomorphic in any good design. The disagreements come (IMHO) when the system isn't quite so neat as we'd like to see, so that the data model or the syntax have "extra" information. Which is the truth? This is a pragmatic question in my book. I tend to believe that specs get out of sync with reality in any successful system, so I've got a bias towards believing the actual data, rather than a version of its spec which is probably out of date ... :-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Wed Dec 9 17:22:06 1998 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: MIME namespace... Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981209092131.00b4a4a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 08:30 AM 12/9/98 -0800, Gabe Beged-Dov wrote: >If we can agree on a URI for the mime namespace, we could potentially start >merrily transferring binary content inline in our XML documents. OK, so I'm >a naive wild-eyed optimist :-). Cool idea. I'll forward your note to Paul Hoffman, director of the Internet Mail Consortium (@imc.org), maybe an imc.org URI is the answer. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jdart at tibco.com Wed Dec 9 17:41:31 1998 From: jdart at tibco.com (Jon Dart) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: DOM questions - unowned Nodes Message-ID: <9812091737.AA16913@tekbspa.tibco.com> I have a couple of question about DOM. Under what conditions can you have a Node with a null ownerDocument? Also, how can you transfer ownership of a Node to another document? Since you can't ever insert a DocumentFragment itself into a document, it doesn't make sense to me for a DocumentFragment to have an "owner" document. However, the spec indicates that the only way you can create a DocumentFragment is via a factory method off a Document. Also, in the description of the ownerDocument attribute, the only case mentioned in which it can be null is the case of a Document node. It would make sense to me to be able to "cut" some nodes out of a document, add them to a DocumentFragment (in which case their ownerDocument becomes null), and then subsequently "paste" them, possibly into another document, at which point they would have an ownerDocument again. If I can't transfer ownership of nodes this way, I don't see how you could build a cut and paste editor. But the DOM appears to disallow this. E.g. ownerDocument is a readonly attribute. And if you can't detach the nodes from their owner document, it seems that the paste would have to fail with WRONG_DOCUMENT_ERR. Another related problem occurs when you have a server application that may deliver DOM objects other that whole documents to a remote client. If you transmit a NodeList or DocumentFragment, it doesn't really have an owner when it arrives on the client end, because the document of which it is a part is on the server and is not serialized. This appears to be a useful thing to do but, again, DOM doesn't seem to allow unowned Nodes. Comments (and especially clarification) on these issues would be appreciated. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Dart jdart@tibco.com TIBCO Software Inc. 650-846-5099 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Wed Dec 9 18:09:19 1998 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <199812091807.NAA12519@chmls06.mediaone.net> Rick Jelliffe wrote: | Joel Bender wrote: |>There are really two problems: (1) what pattern of character strings |>are acceptable for content (attribute value or element content) and |>(2) how should those patterns be mapped to atomic types? |>...Both the 'type' of value and the 'encoding' of the value must be |>specified. | |Which assumes that there are "atomic types" independent of domains. I think of data types as domains, too. E.g. non-negative integers vs. positive integers, temperature in degrees Farenheit, etc., etc. It seems that everyone has different notions of what constitute the "atomic" types. I also agree with the many folks who have said that the XML spec should not be burdened with the large set of atomic types that would be required to make everybody happy. Which may be why NOTATIONS were invented in the first place. It is probably one of those compromises that makes no one truly happy but let's everyone get their (wildy divergent) work done with the same spec. No small feat indeed. Although "attribute Notations" will solve some real problems (XPointers to compound keys!), I can do useful work with element values today. Like Joel says, it seems the only physical issue for XML is how to translate the logical structure to and from a character stream. The physical structure any given application uses at run-time is application, system and programming language dependent. Thus the NOTATION need only denote the logical structure, allowing the application to direct the character data to its preferred translation code, e.g. a regexp engine. XML is off the hook! I'd guess this is why the PUBLIC id is required while the SYSTEM id is optional for NOTATIONs. The path to the handler probably belongs in a system dependent application config file, not the DTD. Much like how web servers use config files to look up MIME handlers. Regards, Charles Reitzel creitzel@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Dec 9 18:31:44 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: DOM questions - unowned Nodes References: <9812091737.AA16913@tekbspa.tibco.com> Message-ID: <366EC1E0.C80095E1@locke.ccil.org> Jon Dart wrote: > I have a couple of question about DOM. Under what conditions > can you have a Node with a null ownerDocument? Only when the Node is itself a Document (an annoying special case, IMHO). > Also, how can > you transfer ownership of a Node to another document? Never under DOM Level 1. > Since you can't ever insert a DocumentFragment itself into a > document, it doesn't make sense to me for a DocumentFragment > to have an "owner" document. Being owned by a Document is not the same as being accessible from the Document by tree walking. A Node once created is always owned by its ownerDocument whether it is currently in the tree or not. > It would make sense to me to be able to "cut" some nodes > out of a document, add them to a DocumentFragment (in which > case their ownerDocument becomes null), and then > subsequently "paste" them, possibly into another document, > at which point they would have an ownerDocument again. Level 1 can't cope with moving Nodes between Documents at all. > If I can't transfer ownership of nodes this way, I don't see > how you could build a cut and paste editor. You can't. Wait for a higher DOM level or roll your own. > Another related problem occurs when you have a server > application that may deliver DOM objects other that whole > documents to a remote client. Same answer. Note: There is a specialized DOM mailing list: www-dom@w3.org. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Dec 9 18:34:35 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Notations References: <199812091807.NAA12519@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <366EC282.E2839D24@locke.ccil.org> Charles Reitzel wrote: > I'd guess this is why the PUBLIC id is required while the SYSTEM id is > optional for NOTATIONs. Actually you can have either public or system ids or both for NOTATION declarations, a unique case in XML (which otherwise requires system ids). > The path to the handler probably belongs in a > system dependent application config file, not the DTD. Much like how web > servers use config files to look up MIME handlers. Exactly so! -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eriblair at mediom.qc.ca Wed Dec 9 20:39:11 1998 From: eriblair at mediom.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric?= Riblair) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: XML parser Message-ID: <199812092038.PAA03051@netra.mediom.qc.ca> Hello, I would like to know if somebody knows how to pass the problem of incompatibility of parser MSXML with Netscape and the different browsers for the Mac ... if you could give me tracks of solutions or alternate approaches (read... others parsers or...) I am also in search for solutions concerning XSL and Netscape and to the mac browsers... Thank you in advance for all your suggestions... ?ric Riblair xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Wed Dec 9 21:16:19 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Notations In-Reply-To: <199812082137.QAA08290@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981209150215.009ce4f0@amati.techno.com> At 04:37 PM 12/8/98 -0500, Charles Reitzel wrote: >So any and all NOTATION attributes are used to interpret the element. This >is a bit vague for my taste, but I'll take it. Any number of NOTATION >attributes are possible, so it could be unclear which controls the format of >the element value. E.g. one might control the element value while another >might be used to perform app specific content model validation not possible >with a DTD alone. (if X is present, then Y is required, etc.). They would all govern: each notation's own processor would do whatever it does and the processing application could use the result or not as it pleased: a given data object can be many things at once. Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the data, only its semantic interpretation. There is never a problem with having multiple semantics associated with a data object as long as you know which one applies to your process. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Dec 9 23:19:05 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:02 2004 Subject: Serializations and data structures (was Re: Topic MapsonSQL) References: <3.0.32.19981124141430.00ce2230@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.1.32.19981125132454.00a78ff8@ifi.uio.no> <3.0.1.32.19981125182127.006c6124@ifi.uio.no> <366EAB37.1C049C4F@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <3676EDD8.32C6@hiwaay.net> David Brownell wrote: > > Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > > > > As the argument stands it looks like checkmate to me. > > Because in fact the syntax and the data model are isomorphic > in any good design. > > The disagreements come (IMHO) when the system isn't quite so neat > as we'd like to see, so that the data model or the syntax have > "extra" information. Which is the truth? This is a pragmatic > question in my book. I tend to believe that specs get out of > sync with reality in any successful system, so I've got a bias > towards believing the actual data, rather than a version of its > spec which is probably out of date ... :-) I note that when creating an application of any kind, it is not the design, the schema, or the spec that make bugs *emerge*: it is the real world data. Witness the way a DTD grows like topsy. The system is never that neat because the requirements aren't. Good thing too. OTW, everything would have been built in the last century and we would all be steam engine repairmen. I contend that topic maps, data types, and other ideas currently circulating happen because we need them. Sort of a Duh, but again, it points to the need to get requirements prior to design. I spent the day creating a DTD for a language in which the original grammar has very explicitly defined datatypes. I stuck CDATA everywhere and am not very about that. Of the various datatype proposals out there: 1. Which is most legitimate to apply today? 2. Which is likely to survive into XML1.>0? I can use a stopgap if it has credibility. OTW, I put these in comments. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sawhneya at ms.com Thu Dec 10 00:27:03 1998 From: sawhneya at ms.com (Avneet Sawhney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <366F1540.3E5575E5@ms.com> Hi, With respect to this issue, the thread has so far focused on the XML->HTML transformation. However, before getting to that stage, how are people going about creating one single XML stream when retrieving information from more than one source? My data is in its original format(RDBMS, etc.) but, upon retrieval, I convert to a XML representation before further processing. Let's say that the client does a single (logical) query. If this always resulted in a single physical query, I would have a general idea how to go about it. But, what if a given logical query needs to generate more than one physical query? The sources could be anything, but let's just say that my middle tier receives a query where it has to get information from two database servers, and the information (SQL) it gets back is to be combined into one XML stream. Besides doing this with lots of coding, I guess one alternative is using webMethod's B2B. I'd appreciate some insight as to what other people are doing to achieve this virtual querying capability. Sorry if this topic has been raised before. Thanks in advance, -Avneet xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjaakkol at cs.Helsinki.FI Thu Dec 10 01:17:54 1998 From: jjaakkol at cs.Helsinki.FI (Jani Jaakkola) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: sgrep-1.90a - SGML and XML search and indexing tool Message-ID: Sgrep-1.90a has been made available in source and binary form. Binaries are available for Win32, HP-UX, Linux, OSF1 and Solaris platforms. Sgrep is a tool to search and index text, SGML, XML and HTML files using structured patterns. This example searches TITLE elements containing word Hamlet from Jon Bosaks XML-text collections (both the religious texts and Shakespeares works): % time sgrep -x index 'stag("TITLE") .. etag("TITLE") containing word("Hamlet")' The Tragedy of Hamlet, Prince of Denmark 0.04user 0.01system 0:00.12elapsed 39%CPU (0avgtext+0avgdata 0maxresident)k 0inputs+0outputs (365major+73minor)pagefaults 0swaps Sgrep-1.90a is still under development, but can be considered as a major step towards version 2.0. New features in 1.90a include - Query operators supporting direct containment. In SGML and XML world this means that you can query children and parents of given elements. - The sources are available under GPL-license for those interested in compiling sgrep themselves. - Sgrep now uses GNU autoconf, so compiling sgrep under Unix-systems should be easy. - Many bug fixes For more information about sgrep: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep.html For a more complete description of the new features see the file README in sgrep distribution or at: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep/README.txt For downloading sgrep use: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep/downloading.html -- My real signature is written in Finnish. Sorry about that. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kent at trl.ibm.co.jp Thu Dec 10 09:33:47 1998 From: kent at trl.ibm.co.jp (TAMURA Kent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: XML Parse, which resolves enitities In-Reply-To: anette.engel@crpht.lu's message of "Wed, 9 Dec 1998 10:56:01 +0100" References: Message-ID: <199812100930.SAA26272@ns.trl.ibm.com> In message "Re: XML Parse, which resolves enitities" on 98/12/09, anette.engel@crpht.lu writes: > > Most do, including Sun's: > > but not xml4j from IBM: > > I wrote a little sample program, just parsing a document and > then writing it to stdout. To my dissappointment the entities > weren't resolved. Maybe, your program did not handle children of org.w3c.dom.EntityReference nodes. If you need no EntityReference nodes, call Parser#setExpandEntityReferences(true) before Parser#readStream(). -- TAMURA, Kent @ Tokyo Research Laboratory, IBM Japan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From evleguy at univ-lille2.fr Thu Dec 10 10:26:24 1998 From: evleguy at univ-lille2.fr (Eve Leguy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Une mailing liste en français Message-ID: <366FA24D.28532CE1@univ-lille2.fr> A new XML list in french has just been created. Its address is xml@trisome.com to subscribe you just have to send "subscribe" to xml-request@trisome.com Eve Leguy xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Thu Dec 10 10:59:19 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?re:_Une_mailing_liste_en_fran=E7ais?= Message-ID: >A new XML list in french has just been created. >Its address is xml@trisome.com >to subscribe you just have to send "subscribe" to >xml-request@trisome.com >Eve Leguy This will be a very usefull site for all non-french-speaking people. Long life to separatism!! How about a chinese xml list? Thank goodness that not all europeans insist of having their xml list in their own lanuage. It could be difficult to learn every lanuage on earth. Might take some time as well. Anette Engel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Thu Dec 10 11:27:39 1998 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Une mailing liste en français In-Reply-To: anette.engel@crpht.lu's message of "Thu, 10 Dec 1998 11:53:48 +0100" References: Message-ID: anette.engel@crpht.lu writes: >> A new XML list in french has just been created. > This will be a very usefull site for all non-french-speaking people. Probably not, but it might be extremely useful for all French non-English speakers. > Thank goodness that not all europeans insist of having their xml list > in their own lanuage. Yes, there should be a law or something. Hey, I've got an idea - why not have the XML standard require all documents to be in English? That way, documents will be universally understandable and accessible to all. ~kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Thu Dec 10 13:58:46 1998 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEB90@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <366FD404.BAE3A7C9@mecomnet.de> While the namespace proposal as it stands does not describe "facilities for defining syntax or semantics", it is by no means silent on them. My note was so full of subjunctives that I trust no one understood it to suggest that the namespace proposal prescribed such a mechanism. It pointed out only that the proposal, as it stands, does not preclude such a mechanism. An alternative wording in the noted paragraph could have done so. It is a rather severe understatement to equate the passage with "silence". Andrew Layman wrote: > > The paragraph quoted below beginning "Each Type..." is intended only to > describe scoping of attribute names matching the scoping expressed in DTDs > today. That is, it simply says that the (unqualified) attlist for distinct > elements types is distinct; that the unqualified attribute types of distinct > element types are distinct. > > The namespaces proposal serves only to provide a mechanism for making names > universally identifyable by associating them with Universal Resource > Identifiers. It is silent on any possible or speculative facilities for > defining syntax or semantics. > ... >> "Each type in the All Element Types Partition has an associated namespace in >> which appear the names of the unqualified attributes that are provided for >> that element. This is a traditional namespace because the appearance of >> duplicate attribute names on an element is forbidden by XML 1.0. The >> combination of the attribute name with the element's type and namespace name >> uniquely identifies each unqualified attribute." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anette.engel at crpht.lu Thu Dec 10 14:56:14 1998 From: anette.engel at crpht.lu (anette.engel@crpht.lu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Are there any XML DOM tree to HTML DOM tree converters? Message-ID: Hello, I am just a newbie to XML and XSL, but I would propose to transform the XML document to an HTML document by using a XSL style sheet. There is the KOALA XSL engine (ftp://koala.inria.fr/pub/xml/Xsl_0.7b1.zip), which "is an XSL processor written in Java, using the Simple API for XML (SAX 1.0) and the Document Object Model (DOM 1.0) API". With this engine it should be possible to do the XML DOM tree -> HTML DOM tree transformation. Regards Anette Engel "Amit Rekhi" on 12/09/98 02:35:51 PM Please respond to "Amit Rekhi" To: "xml list" cc: (bcc: Anette Engel/crmm) Subject: Are there any XML DOM tree to HTML DOM tree converters? Hello, I am currently developing an XML application which will take an XML DOM tree as an input and needs to produce an HTML DOM tree from the XML DOM tree. 1) Are there any utilities/tools which do the XML DOM tree -> HTML DOM tree conversion? 2) In the absence of such converters what are the different ways in which I can achieve this purpose? Thanks in advance for any replies, AMIT xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Jeffrey_Davis at GTSI.com Thu Dec 10 16:34:42 1998 From: Jeffrey_Davis at GTSI.com (Jeffrey Davis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: XML-DOM Message-ID: I'm not sure this is on target, but regarding your question in the XML-DEV forum regarding XML DOM, there is a good article in the January, 1999 issue of Web Techniques giving a JavaScript to build a DOM within the browser from XML. Not only was it older browser friendly, it was significantly faster than the built-in support in Microsoft Internet Explorer, and worked in Netscape's browser also. Although they have downloadable source code on their site, http://www.webtechniques.com, they do not yet have the code up for the January issue, but I assume it will be there Real Soon Now! mailto:Jeffrey_Davis@gtsi.com Senior Programmer/Web Architect (703) 502-2242 Voice (703) 702-2349 Pager xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu Thu Dec 10 18:08:23 1998 From: joel at spooky.emcs.cornell.edu (Joel Bender) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: Just as I thought my mind was clear, it gets muddy again. John Cowan wrote: >> The path to the handler probably belongs in a system >> dependent application config file, not the DTD. Much like >> how web servers use config files to look up MIME handlers. > > Exactly so! >From this I get the impression that the DTD contains a NOTATION that refers to some specification of content, i.e., image/jpeg. This does not provide a mechanism to describe how it is encoded, you need a content transfer encoding description as well. It does at least tell you that the content is a picture and that its jpeg encoded. W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the > data, only its semantic interpretation. Humm. This gives me the impression that a notation doesn't say how the contents are encoded, only that its a 'picture'. This is fine for some applications like the web that don't need or want to specify anything in more detail (i.e., the contents can be any kind of picture). But this isn't enough for some applications. As quoted by David Brownell, Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > Well, you can't very well transmit the data model itself > between computers or down through time. In other words: > you must have the serialization syntax. The question is: > is an explicit specification of the data model of any use? In my application environment it is abosolutly necessary, and the role of the standards process. With "wiggle room" it is too easy for systems to fall out of interoperability, usually at the expense of the receiver, since the transmitter could point the to standard and say "See, it says I can send you any encoding I want and its up to you to support that encoding, therefore I am still in compliance." To continue with my analogy 30, I must be able to say that the contents will be a decimal encoded integer. Not hex, octal, bit string, base64 encoded, etc. Perhaps more encoding formats will be supported in the future, at which point all parties will be given the opportunity to state their compliance to the new standard. In some cases the specification will provide a minimum and maximum range, so applications know what to expect, but I don't care if your system uses long or short integers, etc., or what mechanism you use to figure out how to encode/decode the contents, we call that "a local matter". Len Bullard wrote: > I spent the day creating a DTD for a language in which the > original grammar has very explicitly defined datatypes. I > stuck CDATA everywhere and am not very [happy] about that. It sounds like notations are what I (we?) want to use, its just that the supporting documentation the notation refers to will be stricter than what is required in other application domains. It would also be nice if the notation id could refer to a specific section of a document, so all of the foundation types (I guess I shouldn't use the word "atomic") are collected into a single, easily versionable, document. Joel p.s. - if you would like to know about my application domain, visit . xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 10 19:26:39 1998 From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: NETIQUETTE (Was Re: Une mailing liste en franais) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981210202600.2bd7375a@pop3.demon.co.uk> The discussion below is totally inappropriate for XML-DEV. I have received (private) feedback with which I completely agree. Whether or not this is meant as a joke is irrelevant - there are people who are offended. Those developing XML have put ***enormous*** effort into developing internationalization (i18n) into XML. And this has reaped its dividends - Jon Bosak was speaking in London on Tuesday and was able to show us Japanese versions of XML documents where the only "English" was in the keywords (!ELEMENT, etc.). Indeed in a well-formed XML document there need be no "English" at all. Europeans (yes, I am a European) are extremely sensitive about language and the threat of minority languages disappearing. I am conscious of my own poor showing in non-English languages (though I have made a modest effort). In this respect XML should be extremely helpful as it allows the creation of documents in all the world's languages with the use of Unicode (although Unicode is not a perfect solution to the culture and meaning associated with some languages). I personally welcome an XML list in French and will subscribe. Partly this will help me keep in touch with French, but it is also extremely valuable to know that this resource is there if I need it. At present many tools are not good at supporting diacritical marks and other non ASCII characters and more difficult language conventions. It is likely that this list will help to produce robust solutions. Also, it has been a pleasure over the last few days both in Vienna (for the W3C-LA exhibit at IST98) and in London this week (W3C-LA) to meet the French team in W3C. When you reflect on the benefits that the W3C effort has brought you, remember that a substantial portion comes from INRIA in France. P. At 13:22 10/12/98 +0100, Ketil Z Malde wrote: >anette.engel@crpht.lu writes: > >>> A new XML list in french has just been created. > >> This will be a very usefull site for all non-french-speaking people. > >Probably not, but it might be extremely useful for all French >non-English speakers. > >> Thank goodness that not all europeans insist of having their xml list >> in their own lanuage. > >Yes, there should be a law or something. > >Hey, I've got an idea - why not have the XML standard require all >documents to be in English? That way, documents will be universally >understandable and accessible to all. > Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic net connection VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Thu Dec 10 19:47:52 1998 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEBD8@RED-MSG-08> Thank you for you mail. What I was trying to make clear--and perhaps failed to make clear--is that the namespaces proposal is fairly limited in its scope. As you say, it does not preclude potential mechanisms that might be invented in the future for making the legal syntax of elements dependent on their context, but at the same time, it certainly takes no obvious steps in that direction. As one of the editors of the proposal, I can assure you that such a mechanism was never in my mind as I worked on the proposal, and if it had been, I would not have seen it as an aspect of namespaces per se but rather of schemas. The namespace proposal serves to permit a simple, standardized mapping from an element or qualified attribute name to a single URI. That is it. It really says nothing about the processing of the URIs. I'm deliberately not commenting on the desirability of having attlists vary depending on context, because that is an orthagonal issue to namespaces. However, I would recommend a general caution against inferring semantics based on namespaces. It is generally much safer to allow the namespaces mechanism to simply confer universal identity to elements and attributes, with other mechanisms (such as schemas or architectures) then defining semantics. -----Original Message----- From: james anderson [mailto:James.Anderson@mecomnet.de] Sent: Thursday, December 10, 1998 6:01 AM To: Andrew Layman Cc: XML Dev Subject: Re: Varying the attlist for an element depending on the element's parent While the namespace proposal as it stands does not describe "facilities for defining syntax or semantics", it is by no means silent on them. My note was so full of subjunctives that I trust no one understood it to suggest that the namespace proposal prescribed such a mechanism. It pointed out only that the proposal, as it stands, does not preclude such a mechanism. An alternative wording in the noted paragraph could have done so. It is a rather severe understatement to equate the passage with "silence". Andrew Layman wrote: > > The paragraph quoted below beginning "Each Type..." is intended only to > describe scoping of attribute names matching the scoping expressed in DTDs > today. That is, it simply says that the (unqualified) attlist for distinct > elements types is distinct; that the unqualified attribute types of distinct > element types are distinct. > > The namespaces proposal serves only to provide a mechanism for making names > universally identifyable by associating them with Universal Resource > Identifiers. It is silent on any possible or speculative facilities for > defining syntax or semantics. > ... >> "Each type in the All Element Types Partition has an associated namespace in >> which appear the names of the unqualified attributes that are provided for >> that element. This is a traditional namespace because the appearance of >> duplicate attribute names on an element is forbidden by XML 1.0. The >> combination of the attribute name with the element's type and namespace name >> uniquely identifies each unqualified attribute." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu Dec 10 19:55:39 1998 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <872566D6.006D5287.00@us.ibm.com> "At some point a determination has to be made about what languages/patterns will be acceptable. Should 'fifteen' also be supported? What are the tradeoffs in parsing complexity vs. universal acceptance and language independance? If the source and target of some communication using an XML document are both humans, most of us are quite flexable (even if seeing some form or other makes us irritated). Give me 'fifteen' in French and I'll be just as lost as my parsers :-)." It seems to me that, at least for e-bidness, a very acceptable mechanism would be to create 'canonical' representations for all the major data types used in business. Since the documents are likely to be generated mechanically and processed mechanically, translation from the user document to the canonical representation for transmission, and the redigesting on the receiving end, would be a none trivial amount of code but not horrible relative to the benefits gained. So, choose "[+/-]x.y" for floating point and say that's the canonical format, period. If you want to be interchangeable for e-bidness, you use the canonical format in your serialization of the data. I know that doesn't do anything for the more document oriented folks, who have a much harder row to hoe. However, dealing with the issue for e-biz would be a big step and wouldn't be horrendous to do. It would be a matter of buying a DLL/Java zip file for your locale that knows how to do the translation to/from the canonical format. There would need to be a little glue that knows how to take type representation names from your particular Schema, and convert them to the name of the canonical type so that the in/out processing knows how to deal with your type names. But that wouldn't be a huge amount of work, and could be packaged with a Schema implementation once the canonical format names were known. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu Dec 10 20:06:24 1998 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: XML DTD parser Message-ID: <872566D6.006C69F4.00@us.ibm.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Thu Dec 10 23:54:30 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Expat and line breaks In-Reply-To: <000201be2235$6372edc0$160410ac@nebula.everyware.com> (tomo@pervasive.com) Message-ID: <199812102352.SAA13930@ruby.ora.com> [Tom Otvos] > Is there any way to get expat to preserve line breaks in element > content? Should that even be possible as far as XML is concerned? > Basically, I have some element content that I would like to remain > untouched and yet I find that all of my carriage returns are changed > to line feeds. I fear this is by design, as seems to be suggested > by section 2.11 of the XML spec, but I was hoping there was a way to > turn this off. What are you doing that it matters? XML mandates that all line-ends be normalized to #xA (§2.11), so any processor that you send your XSL output back into should be able to handle that result. If you're using XSL to produce something other than XML, you must remember that that's not its intended use, and you may have to do some post-processing. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Fri Dec 11 00:04:05 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Expat and line breaks In-Reply-To: <199812102352.SAA13930@ruby.ora.com> (message from Chris Maden on Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:52:33 -0500 (EST)) Message-ID: <199812110002.TAA14613@ruby.ora.com> I said > If you're using XSL to produce something other than XML, you must > remember that that's not its intended use, and you may have to do > some post-processing. Clearly, I'm subscribed to too many mailing lists. If you're just processing XML and doing something with it (other than using an XSL stylesheet on it), then you'd still better be prepared to handle #xA line ends. Even if there were a way to coax one parser to turn that behavior off, you wouldn't necessarily be able to do that with other parsers. A better idea is just to process the data to convert #xA back into a system-specific line-end. I can't imagine a scenario where this is hard in Perl or C (though I don't know Java). -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Fri Dec 11 06:54:25 1998 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:03 2004 Subject: Are there any XML DOM tree to HTML DOM tree converters? Message-ID: <002101be24c0$aa995990$0c01a8c0@vsnl.net.in> Anette : >I am just a newbie to XML and XSL, but I would propose to transform the >XML document to an HTML document by using a XSL style sheet. XSL won't work in my case since an XSL processor expects an XML file not a XML DOM tree and I need a converter which will accept an XML DOM tree as input to produce an HTML DOM tree. >With this engine it should be possible to do the >XML DOM tree -> HTML DOM tree transformation. Does the Koala accept XML DOM trees? I don't think so. XSL processors are designed to accept XML files not DOM trees. Internally they may convert the XML file to a XML DOM tree for processing but they are not designed to accept XML DOM trees. AMIT xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Dec 11 09:46:15 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981209150215.009ce4f0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <000001be24ea$716eda30$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > From: W. Eliot Kimber > Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the data, only its > semantic interpretation. If that is so, I am back to square zero in my understanding of notations! For example, I thought that if I wanted to put MIDI data in an XML document, I would use notations to the indicate the fact. But I can't semantically interpret MIDI data (or even hear the music) before I've parsed it. The notation is surely there to tell me that it's MIDI, not that it's Vivaldi. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Dec 11 09:54:53 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML In-Reply-To: <366F1540.3E5575E5@ms.com> Message-ID: <000101be24eb$a7b8e760$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > The sources could be anything, but let's just say that my middle tier > receives a query where it has to get information from two database servers, and the > information (SQL) it gets back is to be combined into one XML stream. > I've done this the simple way ("with lots of coding" - about 8 lines), by concatenating the query results into a single XML document and then parsing it. I've thought about other techniques, like embedding the SQL queries into the document in some way (an entity? an element? a PI?) and replacing each query with its result in the course of parsing, but haven't got round to implementing anything. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Fri Dec 11 10:05:56 1998 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <01BE24F5.721D8FC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Michael Kay wrote: > > From: W. Eliot Kimber > > Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the data, only its > > semantic interpretation. > > If that is so, I am back to square zero in my understanding of notations! > > For example, I thought that if I wanted to put MIDI data in an XML document, > I would use notations to the indicate the fact. But I can't semantically > interpret MIDI data (or even hear the music) before I've parsed it. The > notation is surely there to tell me that it's MIDI, not that it's Vivaldi. I think what Eliot means is that a generic parser does not treat the notated (notationized? annotated?) data any differently. (In fact, a non-validating parser might not even know that it carries a notation.) The parser parses the data in the same way it parses any other character data and passes it to the application. It is then up to the *application* to interpret the data according to the notation. For example, assuming MIDI data is binary, it might carry two notations. The first would indicate that it is base64-encoded -- remember that this is still character data -- and the second would indicate that it is MIDI data. Based on the first notation, the application would pass the character data to a base64 decoder to translate it to binary. Based on the second notation, the application would pass the now-binary data to a MIDI application, which could play it for your enjoyment. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 11 14:45:32 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations References: <000001be24ea$716eda30$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <36712FD6.1F497A17@locke.ccil.org> Michael Kay scripsit: > > From: W. Eliot Kimber > > Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the data, only its > > semantic interpretation. > > If that is so, I am back to square zero in my understanding of notations! > > For example, I thought that if I wanted to put MIDI data in an XML document, > I would use notations to the indicate the fact. But I can't semantically > interpret MIDI data (or even hear the music) before I've parsed it. The > notation is surely there to tell me that it's MIDI, not that it's Vivaldi. I think Eliot is referring to (X|SG)ML parsing: interpreting notations is done at a level above XML parsing, and does not affect it. One level's syntax is another level's semantics. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mik at owl.co.uk Fri Dec 11 15:16:47 1998 From: mik at owl.co.uk (Michael Ewins) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: sub-documents Message-ID: <022b01be2518$fa0e8150$2096c9c2@mik-ppro.owl.co.uk> I have a structure that I am trying to model using XML but I want to be able to split the main document into a number of sub-documents. I have seen a brief description of using sub-documents in "Structuring XML Documents" by David Megginson but it doesn't cover the problem I'm trying to solve nor does it go into much detail w.r.t. how to define the appropriate DTD. The example DTDs and documents shown below are an attempt to explain what I'm trying to do. I want to use the element B in the document "A" and the document "B-DOC". Is this possible with the structure defined below or should I be using another mechanism? ** "a.dtd" ]> ** "bdoc.dtd" ]> ** doc1.xml ** doc2.xml And as a follow-up question... would it be better to define the element B in the bdoc.dtd and re-use it in a.dtd? Thanks in advance for any help... -- Michael Ewins Office Workstations Ltd -- mik@owl.co.uk -- http://www.owl.co.uk xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Dec 11 16:58:10 1998 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <027301be2527$cfe387e0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> >> From: W. Eliot Kimber >> Remember that notations do not affect the *parsing* of the data, only its >> semantic interpretation. > >If that is so, I am back to square zero in my understanding of notations! > >For example, I thought that if I wanted to put MIDI data in an XML document, >I would use notations to the indicate the fact. But I can't semantically >interpret MIDI data (or even hear the music) before I've parsed it. The >notation is surely there to tell me that it's MIDI, not that it's Vivaldi. By "not affect[ing] the *parsing of the data", I think Eliot means the parsing by an XML processor. The point is that NOTATIONs say nothing about how an XML processor is to treat the character data. They are about helping an application interpret the syntax of the character data. As I've discovered before on this list, there can be a lot of confusion in the use of the term "semantic[s]". I think this is partly because you need to know what layer you are talking about. At the token level, XML specifies both a syntax and a semantics. (eg it tells you where '<' can occur and tells you want it means when it does). But the semantics at this level are purely to provide the syntax for the next. At the element level, XML optionally specifies a syntax (via a DTD) but *not* a semantics. (eg it tells you where 'Price' can occur but not what it means). At the application layer, it's different again. At one level, element types could be viewed as providing semantic labelling of data and notations as providing syntactic labelling, eg ... (where format is a notation attribute) Elements, with their name, generally express an isa relationship between element type and content. Attributes, generally express a hasa relationship between properties and content. Notations, say something about how the syntax of the content is to be interpreted by some separate application. But even though notations are about syntax, they aren't about XML token syntax, or XML element syntax. In as much as notations help an application *INTERPRET*, they are providing a form of semantics. It is semantics leading to how to subsequently parse the syntax of the character data. Remember: One application's semantics is another's syntax. :-) James -- James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com Associate Researcher, Electronic Commerce Network Curtin University of Technology, Perth, Western Australia Maintainer of : www.xmlinfo.com, www.xmlsoftware.com and www.schema.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Fri Dec 11 17:43:33 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT of Website "Chinese XML Now!" Message-ID: <004701be252d$ef0cebb0$26f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> "Chinese XML Now!" is a project at Academica Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan, to help developers of Chinese XML software. The project Web site is http://www.ascc.net/xml/ The English-language version of this Web site is now available for use. Chinese versions should be on-stream next week, in UTF-8, Big5 and GB2312. The Website will feature: * "The Chinese XML FAQ" about specific Chinese questions on XML; * a test page of targeted XML test files: these are all available in UTF-8, Big5 and GB2312, and all these can be available as text/plain, text/xml and application/xml (these files are mainly English text: these files can be useful for Western XML as well); more text files will be added over the next few weeks; * a special series of logos called "The Chinese Numberplate" which Western software developers can add to their Web pages to advertise the encodings supported by their product: these can be linked back to standard Chinese documentation at our site; * a summary list of XML software which looks like it supports Chinese, with useful developers comments; * a list of links. Anyone who is doing Chinese XML is welcome to participate. At this early stage in the game, the intent of the site is primarily to provide useful material for Western developers: we want to make it easy for the first generation of XML tools to support Chinese. But as more XML activity grows on this side of the Pacific, we anticipate the site will become primarily targetted to Chinese-language people. Part of this may also involve creating or porting useful utilities. Academia Sinica is the leading Chinese research institution. It has many projects which will require Chinese XML in the near future. "Chinese XML Now!" is a project to help develop XML infrastructure we can use and share. Contacts for this project are: Rick Jelliffe: ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw Sidney Lu: lu@gate.sinica.edu.tw Rick Jelliffe, Computing Center, Academia Sinica, Taipei, Taiwan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Dec 12 21:55:42 1998 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations References: <199812091807.NAA12519@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3672E29F.A42783A9@prescod.net> Charles Reitzel wrote: > > I'd guess this is why the PUBLIC id is required while the SYSTEM id is > optional for NOTATIONs. The path to the handler probably belongs in a > system dependent application config file, not the DTD. Much like how web > servers use config files to look up MIME handlers. You are so right. In fact, the handler probably belongs in an *application AND system dependent config file*. The handler need to display an MPEG is different from the one needed to edit which is different from the one needed to build a GroveMinder compatible grove for it which is different from the one needed to build a Jade compatible grove! It really makes no sense to put a system identifier for a notation in an XML document unless you only intend that document to be used in one system (and don't intend to change your mind!) (and don't intend to change your mind about changing your mind!). Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Sports utility vehicles are gated communities on wheels" - Anon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Dec 12 21:57:15 1998 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations References: <027301be2527$cfe387e0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <3672E3F5.AD5F106E@prescod.net> James Tauber wrote: > > As I've discovered before on this list, there can be a lot of confusion in > the use of the term "semantic[s]". I think this is partly because you need > to know what layer you are talking about. > > At the token level, XML specifies both a syntax and a semantics. (eg it > tells you where '<' can occur and tells you want it means when it does). > > But the semantics at this level are purely to provide the syntax for the > next. This is a very important point! XML does have semantics, just not enough to solve any problems (by itself). I've found that there is a similar layer-specificity about the words "physical" vs. "virtual." For instance, people refer to files on a file system as "physical" if they are comparing them to logical constructs such as the result of an FTP transfer (which could have been generated on the fly). But files are not physical if you compare them to blocks on the hard drive. It is not correct to say that file systems have nothing to do with the "physical organization of data." The definition of physical depends on the layer you are discussing. A garbage collection system that used double indirection might speak of "virtual" memory locations (ones not recognized as addresses by the CPU) and "physical" memory locations (recognized by the CPU) but some physical memory locations might live in what we commonly call "virtual memory." Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Sports utility vehicles are gated communities on wheels" - Anon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sun Dec 13 07:25:14 1998 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <010e01be266a$331ed4c0$0300000a@othniel.cygnus.uwa.edu.au> >It really makes no sense to put a system identifier for a notation in an >XML document unless you only intend that document to be used in one system >(and don't intend to change your mind!) (and don't intend to change your >mind about changing your mind!). Except that you could use a URI that is a recognised identifier for the notation (even if it doesn't point to an actual resource). This is what namespaces do, after all. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Sun Dec 13 16:37:39 1998 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: An XLink question Message-ID: <199812131634.RAA26677@chimay.loria.fr> Hi, I've got a question concerning the XML Link "show" mechanism. I've got 2 documents, a primary one and a "virtual" one that owns some links to the first one. And i have a problem with a link that contains another link and the way they will be evaluated. My primary document: My virtual resource: My secong LINK is never evaluated, isn't it ? Does someone already have to deal with this kind of things, primary vs virtual ressources ? Thanks Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide * Projet Aquarelle : http://aqua.inria.fr ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun Dec 13 16:54:05 1998 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: An XLink question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981213085112.00af4c30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 05:34 PM 12/13/98 +0100, Patrice Bonhomme wrote: >My virtual resource: > > > > > > >My secong LINK is never evaluated, isn't it ? That's a very weird looking piece of markup. I think what happens depends on the value of the "actuate" attribute, which I think defaults to "user" - in which case neither the inner nor the outer link will be traversed until someone asks for it. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at dns.isogen.com Sun Dec 13 20:56:41 1998 From: eliot at dns.isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:04 2004 Subject: An XLink question In-Reply-To: <199812131634.RAA26677@chimay.loria.fr> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19981213145711.00a1ddf0@amati.techno.com> At 05:34 PM 12/13/98 +0100, Patrice Bonhomme wrote: > >Hi, > >I've got a question concerning the XML Link "show" mechanism. I've got 2 >documents, a primary one and a "virtual" one that owns some links to the first >one. And i have a problem with a link that contains another link and the way >they will be evaluated. > >My primary document: > > > > > >My virtual resource: > > > > > > >My secong LINK is never evaluated, isn't it ? Does someone already have to >deal with this kind of things, primary vs virtual ressources ? Both links will be "evaluated" (if by "evaluated" you mean processed by an XLink-aware processor in order to enable traversal). When one gets used depends on how the user interface enables traversal. For example, if you click on the presented representation of the inner link you might go directly to element "c" or you might get a dialog giving you a choice of which link to traverse. But not that this is *entirely* dependent on how the user interface implements traversal initiation, which the XLink specification says nothing about (nor should it). If you traverse the outer link and the replace show action is respected, then you would lose the ability to traverse from the inner link unless you did a "back" following the first traversal. This all assumes that actuate="user". If actuate="auto", then all bets are off, because there doesn't appear to be any obvious way to satisfy both actuate requests in any meaningful way. If I was implementing it, I'd probably say that the first link in tree order governs, which means the outer link would be actuated and the inner link would never get a chance to actuate, because the active document would be DOC1 as soon as the actuation occurred. This suggests that actuate="auto" is a dangerous tool that should be used carefully. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. 2200 N. Lamar St., Suite 230, Dallas, TX 75202. 214.953.0004 www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon Dec 14 13:14:08 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: More tests up on Web site "Chinese XML Now!" Message-ID: <003b01be2763$c7b4c0f0$48f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Just to say I have put up more XML test files on http://www.ascc.net/xml/test/index.htm Now we have * 11 simple test files * 4 versions of each: plain, +CSS, +xmlns, +DOCTYPE * each version served in 3 encodings * each encoding served in 3 MIME types = 396 different tests. The test files are not designed to all be viewable with IE 5.0 or Gecko/Mozilla. But it is interesting to see what their level of support is. IE 5.0 beta is quite happy with the +CSS files, and (apparantly this depends on what other things you have loaded, I cannot figure it out) will on some systems display XML with a nice default stylesheet. (However, IE 5 beta seems to have position-dependent encoding PIs and stylesheet PI, so I removed "standalone" from the former and "charset" from the latter.) For the Big5 and GB2312 encodings, IE 5beta is great. (Of course, you need the Asian handling installed, but it is just a download away. ) IE 5 does the correct thing if it cannot understand an encoding: it refuses the file. Gecko, for example, does not seem to use ISO 10646 at all: it looks like its stuck in 8859-1: the current version doesnt seem to even look. Nasty. But there are lots of strange things: when we put a string that looks like a numeric character reference inside a plain file http://www.ascc.net/xml/test/wf/big5/application_xml/zh-big5-7.xml it is OK. But the same file using a stylesheet interprets the CDATA string as if it were an NCR: http://www.ascc.net/xml/test/wfss/big5/application_xml/zh-big5-7.xml Rather unexpected behaviour. It is interesting that IE5 beta treats an incoming XML file the same whether it is plain/text, text/xml or application/xml, when you are browsing it. It is very determined to interpret the file as XML if it has an XML encoding PI. Gecko seems to use the MIME registry much more: I think I prefer that. The other thing to keep in mind if you are using any of the test files with Chinese characters (many dont) is that if the font that your browser is using a font without those characters you may see just a white box or something. Rick Jelliffe ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon Dec 14 18:41:02 1998 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <872566DA.00667D46.00@us.ibm.com> "For example, assuming MIDI data is binary, it might carry two notations. The first would indicate that it is base64-encoded -- remember that this is still character data -- and the second would indicate that it is MIDI data. Based on the first notation, the application would pass the character data to a base64 decoder to translate it to binary. Based on the second notation, the application would pass the now-binary data to a MIDI application, which could play it for your enjoyment." Just from a practical standpoint though, if you found an element that had say three notations. One said it was MIDI, one said it was Base64, and one said it was zipped. Was it base64'd then zipped, or zipped then base 64'd? How would one indicate the ordering of original transformations in such a situation, so that it could be untransformed correctly back? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eddie.sheffield at enterworks.com Mon Dec 14 19:15:29 1998 From: eddie.sheffield at enterworks.com (Eddie Sheffield) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations References: <872566DA.00667D46.00@us.ibm.com> Message-ID: <367562F4.760FED27@enterworks.com> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > "For example, assuming MIDI data is binary, it might carry two notations. > The first would indicate that it is base64-encoded -- remember that this > is still character data -- and the second would indicate that it is MIDI > data. Based on the first notation, the application would pass the > character data to a base64 decoder to translate it to binary. Based on the > second notation, the application would pass the now-binary data to a MIDI > application, which could play it for your enjoyment." > > Just from a practical standpoint though, if you found an element that had > say three notations. One said it was MIDI, one said it was Base64, and one > said it was zipped. Was it base64'd then zipped, or zipped then base 64'd? > How would one indicate the ordering of original transformations in such a > situation, so that it could be untransformed correctly back? Technically, you have a good point. And in some instances it could be a major issue. In practice, this might not be too big of a concern in most instances just because of usual conventions. In your example, the base64 would almost by definition be the last transform done because that's how it was made easily transportable via a text (XML) file. Just like an email attachment, you don't base64 then zip - it defeats the purpose of the base64 encoding. Likewise with a zip notation. Zipping is usually the last step before preparing a file for archiving or transport (subject to a transport encoding like base64). Of course, all this means nothing to a parser, but to an application that understands the notations at all, it would have to be assumed that the application understands an expected encoding transformation sequence as well. For those applications where it would be a problem, perhaps some kind of nesting of elements would be possible, each indicating the encoding of the next nested element. Eddie Sheffield xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Dec 14 20:31:27 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: An XLink question References: <3.0.5.32.19981213145711.00a1ddf0@amati.techno.com> Message-ID: <36757583.76102FD4@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > This suggests that actuate="auto" is a dangerous tool that should be used > carefully. Actually, it's the combination of actuate='auto' and show='replace' that's dangerous, because it causes the content of the originating document to be hidden or discarded. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Dec 14 21:26:50 1998 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: An XLink question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981214132523.00afc6f0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:30 PM 12/14/98 -0500, John Cowan wrote: >Actually, it's the combination of actuate='auto' and show='replace' >that's dangerous, because it causes the content of the originating >document to be hidden or discarded. Well yes, but awfully useful too, in certain circumstances, I'd think. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Dec 14 21:31:57 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations References: Message-ID: <367583B3.D167799E@locke.ccil.org> Joel Bender wrote: > From this I get the impression that the DTD contains a NOTATION that refers > to some specification of content, i.e., image/jpeg. Yes. To specify that a particular element contains an image/jpeg, you must give that element an attribute of type NOTATION with the value being the (local) name of the notation, e.g. "image_jpeg". > This does not provide > a mechanism to describe how it is encoded, you need a content transfer > encoding description as well. True. The only useful encodings for XML purposes are "implicit" and "base64", where "implicit" means a stream of characters in the prevailing character set. > Humm. This gives me the impression that a notation doesn't say how the > contents are encoded, only that its a 'picture'. A notation can say whatever you want it to, depending on the document that is referenced by the notation's external identifier. It can be as vague as "picture" or as specific as "text/html;charset='8859-9'" for Turkish web pages. One problem with notations as currently designed is that you either understand a notation or you don't; there's no reliable way to get the kind of partial understanding that the hierarchical nature of MIME types gives you (i.e. knowing that "text/foobar" is a "text"). Full SGML has a solution to this, but it depends on mechanisms that aren't in XML. > To continue with my analogy 30, I must be able to > say that the contents will be a decimal encoded integer. Not hex, octal, > bit string, base64 encoded, etc. Just so. Write documentation explaining the format, and create a DTD containing a NOTATION declaration referring to the documentation. You can use full URI references, so "http://dom.ain.net/whatever#tag" will work fine. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Tue Dec 15 00:40:13 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: XArc (aka XLink--++) Message-ID: <009201be27c3$6bf38520$160016c0@jfinity1> I have written up a (very preliminary) specification for XArc. It can be found at www.jfinity.com/xarc/spec-191214. Here are the first few paragraphs of the introduction: XArc is a simple specification for supporting atomic "linking" in XML. It is the micro-kernel of capability that I think is needed in order to enable all the more sophisticated modeling oriented linking scenarios that are currently discussed under the rubric of "extended" links in the current XLink specification. One way to think about XArc is as a rewrite of the "simple" link construct in XLink. This rewrite provides built-in capabilities on which to layer the extended link facilities of XLink (albeit in a slightly more verbose but unambiguous syntax). The name XArc comes from the fact that "link" is woefully overloaded and the definition of an arc in graph theory is the closest to what I see is needed from the linking micro-kernel. Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Tue Dec 15 00:44:50 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Correct URL for XArc :-( Message-ID: <009a01be27c4$0ae07cb0$160016c0@jfinity1> Oh well, only off by two digits.... http://www.jfinity.com/xarc/spec-981214 Gabe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Dec 15 01:37:54 1998 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Managing Names and Ontologies Message-ID: <199812150137.UAA15399@hesketh.net> Robin Cover wrote a great piece that Sun has linked from their front page (http://www.sun.com/981201/xml/). He describes the need for a registry of XML specifications and markup languages, and seems to present possible answers to a lot of the issues that have been argued about on this list regarding lifetimes of specs, 'official' registries, and other spec management issues. It's good reading for all; I strongly hope something comes of it. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Cookies Sharing Bandwidth Building XML Applications (February) http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Dec 15 10:06:56 1998 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <01BE281A.3C212B20@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Dean Roddey wrote: > Just from a practical standpoint though, if you found an element that had > say three notations. One said it was MIDI, one said it was Base64, and one > said it was zipped. Was it base64'd then zipped, or zipped then base 64'd? > How would one indicate the ordering of original transformations in such a > situation, so that it could be untransformed correctly back? Your application would need to know the order. Given that there are no standard notations at the moment, this doesn't seem unreasonable, as the application needs to know what the notations mean, anyway. If people "standardize" notations, this is a fair question. One quick hack would be a NMTOKENS attribute that contained the names of the notation attributes (or notations) in the order in which they were to be applied. Or course, that attribute would need to be "standardized", too. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stevek at fineline-software.co.uk Tue Dec 15 10:20:45 1998 From: stevek at fineline-software.co.uk (Steve Kearon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: expat and encodings Message-ID: <01be2812$c927be60$LocalHost@stevekea> Can someone clarify the issue of character encodings for me - I think this is an expat issue, but it may be a more general thing. I'm trying to save/load text that might contain accented characters (>127). Running on Windows95. I realise that when writing XML, I either have to convert such characters to "&#xxx;" form, or note that the file format encoding is "iso-8859-1", otherwise the XML parser (expat)objects when subsequently reading the file. The snag is that whether the file has utf-8 or iso-8859-1 encoding, the text the application receives from the parser seems to be always utf-8. I've tried specifying "iso-8859-1" as the encoding to the XML_CreateParser() call, but this seems to have no effect (I guess the parameter actually overrides the default (rtf-8) file encoding, rather than specifying the encoding the client would like to see). The questions... Is my understanding correct - does expat feed UTF-8 text to clients when parsing? Can expat be asked to feed clients iso-8859-1? If the client must convert manually, are there any helper functions in expat/xmltok? If I use the unicode build of expat, does it feed utf-8, unicode or utf-16? Many thanks, Steve Kearon FineLine Software xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue Dec 15 11:28:26 1998 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: expat and encodings References: <01be2812$c927be60$LocalHost@stevekea> Message-ID: <36763EAC.DA3216B2@jclark.com> Steve Kearon wrote: > Is my understanding correct - does expat feed UTF-8 text to clients when > parsing? Yes. > Can expat be asked to feed clients iso-8859-1? No. > If the client must convert manually, are there any helper functions in > expat/xmltok? Not for converting to iso-8859-1. > If I use the unicode build of expat, does it feed utf-8, unicode or utf-16? It feeds UTF-16 (the same as Unicode 2). James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Dec 15 13:45:18 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <002901be2831$5d2818d0$30f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Ronald Bourret >Dean Roddey wrote: >> Just from a practical standpoint though, if you found an element that had >> say three notations. One said it was MIDI, one said it was Base64, and >one >> said it was zipped. Was it base64'd then zipped, or zipped then base >64'd? >> How would one indicate the ordering of original transformations in such a >> situation, so that it could be untransformed correctly back? > >Your application would need to know the order. Given that there are no >standard notations at the moment, this doesn't seem unreasonable, as the >application needs to know what the notations mean, anyway. There are plenty of standard notations. My book has about 150 of them, for example: including date and regular expressions. But the (ISO) standard notations tend to be for file-level data rather than for field-level data. Personally, I don't expect vendor-based consortia to standardize notations very much: I think that SGML and HTML experience shows that they will try to use XML as a vehicle for competing by adding in-house notations, customized for their products. As far as sequence goes, there is an ISO standard method "Formal System Identifiers" (FSIs). If people want them, they can be retrofitted on top of URLs. They basically embed a pseudo-start tag into the SYSTEM identifier of an entity declaration, and give unpacking information for the storage system. They can be cascaded (or, at least, pipelined) to allow you to request, for example, a file called "x" which is gzip compressed in a tar achive called "y" which is sitting as the third file in an multipart MIME email, which has been hex-encoded and which has a checksum. I think FSIs would be a good idea in XML. They fit in between URIs and XPointers, I suppose. I don't think URIs can provide pipelines and I don't think XPointers can provide extended functions like checksums. However, URIs and XPointers do a lot, and they may do enough. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Dec 15 15:02:39 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:05 2004 Subject: Notations References: <002901be2831$5d2818d0$30f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <367679E3.EBEC48E4@locke.ccil.org> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > As far as sequence goes, there is an ISO standard method "Formal System > Identifiers" (FSIs). If people want them, they can be retrofitted on top > of URLs. But they can't be used in "system identifier" slots in XML without changing XML 1.0, because XML 1.0 system ids are URI references and nothing else. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tallen at sonic.net Tue Dec 15 17:05:23 1998 From: tallen at sonic.net (Terry Allen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: Managing Names and Ontologies Message-ID: <199812151704.JAA08990@bolt.sonic.net> Simon St.Laurent wrote: | | Robin Cover wrote a great piece that Sun has linked from their front page | (http://www.sun.com/981201/xml/). He describes the need for a registry of | XML specifications and markup languages, and seems to present possible | answers to a lot of the issues that have been argued about on this list | regarding lifetimes of specs, 'official' registries, and other spec | management issues. | | It's good reading for all; I strongly hope something comes of it. Thanks to Robin's energy, OASIS has set up a Registry and Repository Technical Committee, of which I am chair. Once OASIS sets up the e-mail discussion list for the TC we'll begin to figure out what needs to be done and what OASIS can do in this area. I'm interested in hearing from anyone who runs or wants to run a registry or repository (off this list, please!). regards, Terry Allen Terry Allen Veo Systems, Inc. Business Language Designer 2440 W. El Camino Real tallen[at]sonic.net Mountain View, Calif., 94040 Common Business Library - available at http://www.veosystems.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lauzon at us.ibm.com Tue Dec 15 19:02:21 1998 From: lauzon at us.ibm.com (Shawn Lauzon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <3676B1CD.7059EF23@us.ibm.com> FF, I work on database persistence with schema mapping on the IBM San Francisco project (reusable components -- see www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/). Anyway, we're currently working on developing an XML interface to our schema mapping tool that allows users to update their mappings via XML documents. It's currently in a somewhat-early development phase right now. What is it specifically that you need to do? Are there any features that would be useful for you? One of the things we're looking for is a standard DTD that can describe a database table (with, for example, tags and tags that would describe the tables and columns). Is there anything that you know of that does this. Thanks ... -- Shawn Lauzon IBM San Francisco Database Persistence www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/ email: lauzon@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed Dec 16 01:34:34 1998 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: FW: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEC0D@RED-MSG-08> Thomas Bergstraesser asked me to forward this to you: We have developed the Open Information Model (OIM) a set of over 200 types that describe meta data in the application development, database design, and data warehousing domain. Part of this model is a complete database schema model for relational, multidimensional, and legacy models. > The OIM is described completely in UML and can be mapped onto different > implementation technologies. The interchange of meta data described by OIM > uses XML and we generate DTDs directly from the UML model. The DTD > provides the tags and structures to describe elements like schema, table, > column as well as cross relationships to components or executables. > > We have announced recently that we will move the OIM and its XML > Interchange Format to the Meta Data Coalition. We are currently in the > process of removing all vendor- specific information from the model in > order to make it technology-independent and vendor-neutral. As its sounds > this might be an ideal starting point for your efforts and provides you > with the additional benefit that your schema can be stored in many > existing repositories and displayed by over 60 modeling tools. > > Our Web site http://www.microsoft.com/repository should provide you with > all the necessary information including a downloadable version of our SDK. > The SDK includes the UML model of the OIM, the DTD generator, and the DTDs > for all the different parts of the OIM as well as the necessary > import/export utilities. Note that this is all still focussed on the > Microsoft Repository technology. > > I hope this information is helpful for you. > > - thomas > > ....... > FF, > > I work on database persistence with schema mapping on the IBM San > Francisco project (reusable components -- see > www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/). Anyway, we're currently working on > developing an XML interface to our schema mapping tool that allows users > to update their mappings via XML documents. It's currently in a > somewhat-early development phase right now. > > What is it specifically that you need to do? Are there any features > that would be useful for you? One of the things we're looking for is a > standard DTD that can describe a database table (with, for example, >
tags and tags that would describe the tables and > columns). Is there anything that you know of that does this. Thanks > ... > > -- > Shawn Lauzon > IBM San Francisco Database Persistence > www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/ > email: lauzon@us.ibm.com > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Dec 16 02:30:51 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: VRML DTD References: <199812151704.JAA08990@bolt.sonic.net> Message-ID: <36771AC8.390F@hiwaay.net> For discussions relative to the Virtual Reality Markup Language (VRML), I have created an XML DTD for the current VRML97 nodes. This is a direct mapping of the existing nodes as defined in the ISO specification in a profile matching that of proposals made for a geometry subset. Completing the DTD for all VRML97 nodes is straightforward and may be done. Another DTD has been created by Daniel Lipkin (Oracle) which abstracts the VRML model one level higher (nodes with type= attributes and formal productions for datatypes). This DTD can express all of the current VRML nodes. If there is interest, I will post the addresses where these DTDs can be found. Len Bullard clbullar@ingr.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Wed Dec 16 09:25:39 1998 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A80001136981@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn Lauzon [SMTP:lauzon@us.ibm.com] > > FF, > > I work on database persistence with schema mapping on the IBM San > Francisco project (reusable components -- see > www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/). Anyway, we're currently working on > developing an XML interface to our schema mapping tool that allows > users > to update their mappings via XML documents. It's currently in a > somewhat-early development phase right now. > > What is it specifically that you need to do? Are there any features > that would be useful for you? One of the things we're looking for is > a > standard DTD that can describe a database table (with, for example, >
tags and tags that would describe the tables and > columns). Is there anything that you know of that does this. Thanks > It depends how complex you want to go. There are a few options available to you. A couple of the simpler ones are WDDX, which can describe a recordset (which you could use as a table), and RDB, which describes tables from relational databases. Personally I don't like WDDX's representation of a recordset because it's by-column, instead of by-row, so in order to get at a particular row you have to parse the entire file. RDB is by-row, but it's a little more verbose because of this and doesn't support data typing. I have a simple perl module that creates RDB XML from a DBI data source if you're interested, it's on CPAN called DBIx::XML_RDB, and contains a utility for dumping complete tables to XML. http://www.allaire.com/developer/wddx http://www.w3.org/XML/RDB Matt. http://come.to/fastnet xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abc at sti.jnu.edu.cn Wed Dec 16 13:06:49 1998 From: abc at sti.jnu.edu.cn (Liang Yunning) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <037e01be28f7$49f3cc20$220974ca@abc.sti.jnu.edu.cn> unsubscribe xml-dev -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981216/4dce9d0f/attachment.htm From coopercl at sch.ge.com Wed Dec 16 14:02:36 1998 From: coopercl at sch.ge.com (Clark Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: expat and encodings Message-ID: <199812161400.JAA22154@dso052.sch.ge.com> Expat always returns to your handlers XML_Char strings, which will be either UTF-8, UTF-16 encoded as wchar_ts, or UTF-16 encoded as unsigned shorts, depending on the definition of XML_UNICODE and XML_UNICODE_WCHAR_T when you compile the library and your program. It provides no option to change the encoding of strings you receive. This is a wise design choice, since only the application should know what to do with characters that don't map from Unicode to the encoding you want to receive. (Even if the document is in ISO-8859-1, it can contain character references (‾) or references to external entities that are in a different encoding.) You may force the encoding recognized by providing a non-null encoding name string to XML_ParserCreate. Normally, however, you should pass it a NULL pointer so that it will recognize and use the XML encoding declaration. If you were using perl and the XML::Parser perl module built on top of expat, I could recommend one of the Unicode modules at CPAN (Comprehensive Perl Archive Network) to help you map from UTF-8 to whatever. Even if you aren't using perl, you can download one of these to see how to build your own C function to do encoding mapping. -- Clark Cooper Logic Technology Inc. cccooper@ltionline.com (518) 385-8380 650 Franklin St., Suite 304 coopercl@sch.ge.com Schenectady, NY 12305 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Wed Dec 16 18:03:42 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: VRML DTD References: <3.0.32.19981124141430.00ce2230@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.1.32.19981125132454.00a78ff8@ifi.uio.no> <3.0.1.32.19981125182127.006c6124@ifi.uio.no> <366EAB37.1C049C4F@eng.sun.com> <3676EDD8.32C6@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <3677F55F.10E6@hiwaay.net> Here are the links. The first is to the DTD I did plus some notes. It is a moreorless direct map to a geometry subset (no scripts, no routes, no interpolators or sensors although adding these is not much work). This is a *classical* DTD. The second is to Daniel Lipkin's site. He posted the copies of the DTDs to the enterprise working group list so may not have these there yet. I will check later today. The Enterprise WG is discussing this subject. Help from XML gurus would be welcome. I've done SGML too long, am rusty, and spoiled. Daniel is taking the approach that enables one to do any of VRML and is a jazzy approach. My suggestion is to consider the potential where Daniel's is an architecture (eg, defines the datatypes) and one like mine becomes an application of that architecture. This way it might be possible to have different kinds of 3D DTDs that let folks work at higher levels than nodes and still get interoperability. Question to the HyTime folks: would that work? http://ariadne.iz.net/~jeffs/vrmLab/Documentation/vrmlDTD.html http://www.olab.com/vrml/vrml.html len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lauzon at us.ibm.com Wed Dec 16 18:08:28 1998 From: lauzon at us.ibm.com (lauzon@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <852566DC.006378B3.00@us.ibm.com> Thanks for all the response I got from this note. Two of these particularly look interesting. One is the OIM from Microsoft that is described by Thomas Bergstraesser, and the other is the Metadata Interchange Specification (MDIS) from the Meta Data Coalition (MDC). The MDIS seems to be almost exactly what I'm looking for to describe relational databases. Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to be in XML, although they do mention using XML to distribute these MDIS documents. OIM has been submitted to the MDC to become a standard, but it seems overly complex for what we're trying to do, although that might be just because I haven't had enough exposure to it. What I'm not sure about is how widespread support is for MDIS in the XML community, or if there is any thought about it whatsoever. Or is the trend for a standard based upon OIM? Shawn Lauzon Department MMB - San Francisco Database Persistence email: lauzon@us.ibm.com phone: (507) 253-6966 T/L 553-6966 "Thomas Bergstraesser (Exchange)" on 12/15/98 01:39:14 PM To: Shawn Lauzon/Rochester/IBM cc: Andrew Layman Subject: RE: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Shawn, we have developed the Open Information Model (OIM) a set of over 200 types that describe meta data in the application development, database design, and data warehousing domain. Part of this model is a complete database schema model for relational, multidimensional, and legacy models. The OIM is described completely in UML and can be mapped onto different implementation technologies. The interchange of meta data described by OIM uses XML and we generate DTDs directly from the UML model. The DTD provides the tags and structures to describe elements like schema, table, column as well as cross relationships to components or executables. We have announced recently that we will move the OIM and its XML Interchange Format to the Meta Data Coalition of which IBM is a council member. We are currently in the process of removing all Microsoft specific information from the model in order to make it technology-independent and vendor-neutral. As its sounds this might be an ideal starting point for your efforts and provides you with the additional benefit that your schema can be stored in many existing repositories and displayed by over 60 modeling tools. Our Web site http://www.microsoft.com/repository should provide you with all the necessary information including a downloadable version of our SDK. The SDK includes the UML model of the OIM, the DTD generator, and the DTDs for all the different parts of the OIM as well as the necessary import/export utilities. Note that this is all still focussed on the Microsoft Repository technology. I hope this information is helpful for you and I could see significant benefits if you would be able to align your representation. Feel free to contact me if you have further questions or need more information. - thomas > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Layman > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:10 AM > To: Thomas Bergstraesser (Exchange) > Subject: FW: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA > > You may want to point them at your work. Having yet another way to > describe tables and columns in XML sounds pretty wasteful. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shawn Lauzon [mailto:lauzon@us.ibm.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:00 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; ffarahbo@informix.com > Subject: Re: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA > > > FF, > > I work on database persistence with schema mapping on the IBM San > Francisco project (reusable components -- see > www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/). Anyway, we're currently working on > developing an XML interface to our schema mapping tool that allows users > to update their mappings via XML documents. It's currently in a > somewhat-early development phase right now. > > What is it specifically that you need to do? Are there any features > that would be useful for you? One of the things we're looking for is a > standard DTD that can describe a database table (with, for example, >
tags and tags that would describe the tables and > columns). Is there anything that you know of that does this. Thanks > ... > > -- > Shawn Lauzon > IBM San Francisco Database Persistence > www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/ > email: lauzon@us.ibm.com > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dcarlson at ontogenics.com Wed Dec 16 18:30:47 1998 From: dcarlson at ontogenics.com (Dave Carlson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <2.2.32.19981216183106.0125bc68@terminal.ontogenics.com> After a brief scan of Microsoft's site on OIM and the associated XML Interchange Format (XIF), I'm concerned and confused about the conflicts with the OMG's XML Metadata Interchange (XMI) specification. XMI is in it's second draft as a standard, and most of the large UML tools vendors have voiced support (IBM, Platinum, Rational and Oracle are co-authors). It appears that OIM and XIF are more focused on database and data warehouse integration, but they also claim full UML metamodel support. Currently, I'm focused on OMG's XMI as the likely standard for UML model interchange. However, I'm very interested on other opinions. Dave Carlson Ontogenics Corp. Boulder, Colorado At 12:04 PM 12/16/98 -0600, lauzon@us.ibm.com wrote: >Thanks for all the response I got from this note. Two of these >particularly look interesting. One is the OIM from Microsoft that is >described by Thomas Bergstraesser, and the other is the Metadata >Interchange Specification (MDIS) from the Meta Data Coalition (MDC). > >The MDIS seems to be almost exactly what I'm looking for to describe >relational databases. Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to be in XML, >although they do mention using XML to distribute these MDIS documents. OIM >has been submitted to the MDC to become a standard, but it seems overly >complex for what we're trying to do, although that might be just because I >haven't had enough exposure to it. What I'm not sure about is how >widespread support is for MDIS in the XML community, or if there is any >thought about it whatsoever. Or is the trend for a standard based upon >OIM? > >Shawn Lauzon >Department MMB - San Francisco Database Persistence >email: lauzon@us.ibm.com >phone: (507) 253-6966 T/L 553-6966 > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Paul.V.Biron at kp.ORG Wed Dec 16 20:03:55 1998 From: Paul.V.Biron at kp.ORG (Biron,Paul V) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: Notations Message-ID: <367811b75933002@laurel.kp.org> >From: Ronald Bourret >Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 11:01:14 +0100 >Subject: RE: Notations >Dean Roddey wrote: >> Just from a practical standpoint though, if you found an element that had >> say three notations. One said it was MIDI, one said it was Base64, and one >> said it was zipped. Was it base64'd then zipped, or zipped then base 64'd? >> How would one indicate the ordering of original transformations in such a >> situation, so that it could be untransformed correctly back? >Your application would need to know the order. Given that there are no >standard notations at the moment, this doesn't seem unreasonable, as the >application needs to know what the notations mean, anyway. >If people "standardize" notations, this is a fair question. One quick hack >would be a NMTOKENS attribute that contained the names of the notation >attributes (or notations) in the order in which they were to be applied. > Or course, that attribute would need to be "standardized", too. >- -- Ron Bourret There's always the option of creating a NOTATION which itself defines the particular processing pipeline, as in where the information contained at the URL will tell you, in addition to the necessary info about each individual "notation", about the ordering of processing inorder to recover the source data. But I think this example shows the limitations of the "general" solution that NOTATIONS provide. Being general means that everyone has to "reinvent" the wheel in many cases on top of that generality. Paul V. Biron SGML Business Analyst Kaiser Permanente, So Cal. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lauzon at us.ibm.com Wed Dec 16 21:19:27 1998 From: lauzon at us.ibm.com (lauzon@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:06 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <852566DC.00750049.00@us.ibm.com> A note that I got from Thomas Bergstraesser (Microsoft) about the merging of OIM and MDIS ... ---------------------- Forwarded by Shawn Lauzon/Rochester/IBM on 12/16/98 03:00 PM --------------------------- "Thomas Bergstraesser (Exchange)" on 12/16/98 01:34:17 PM To: Shawn Lauzon/Rochester/IBM cc: Subject: RE: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA I do not monitor the XML alias so there is a high chance that I miss something. If you feel this is of broader interest pls feel to forward it. Your findings are correct. - MDIS is not XML bases - MDIS is a very core model on purpose so that it is easy to implement - MDIS will merge into OIM (since it is covered by the more expressive OIM) - OIM is a very rich model and described in UML so one needs to understand UML and get exposed to the modeling rules used The OIM will be the way forward and we are working with the MDC to get all the deliverables in place. One of the tasks is to structure OIM so that one can use parts more easily. However UML will stay with us so it might be a good time to look into this cool standard. MDIS is completely covered by OIM and you should be able to get a mapping MDIS->OIM from the MDC Web site. MDIS as standard has not achieved widespread support since it has been outpaced by Web-technologies like XML and the OIM as semantic definition. So what is the way forward if you can not wait until Q1 '99? I would determine the subset of elements in the OIM you want to use and select the XML elements which represent them. If you stick to the format you are ensured that you are compatible with the MDC OIM released in '99 providing you with free import/export with enterprise meta data management systems. Additionally if you need to add descriptions of other meta data elements in future you can add them in a compatible way. Depending on your application it might be reasonable to invest the time to deal with OIM to gain compatibility and extensibility in later stages. However if you are developing a one shot app it might be overkill. - thomas At 12:04 PM 12/16/98 -0600, lauzon@us.ibm.com wrote: >Thanks for all the response I got from this note. Two of these >particularly look interesting. One is the OIM from Microsoft that is >described by Thomas Bergstraesser, and the other is the Metadata >Interchange Specification (MDIS) from the Meta Data Coalition (MDC). > >The MDIS seems to be almost exactly what I'm looking for to describe >relational databases. Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to be in XML, >although they do mention using XML to distribute these MDIS documents. OIM >has been submitted to the MDC to become a standard, but it seems overly >complex for what we're trying to do, although that might be just because I >haven't had enough exposure to it. What I'm not sure about is how >widespread support is for MDIS in the XML community, or if there is any >thought about it whatsoever. Or is the trend for a standard based upon >OIM? > >Shawn Lauzon >Department MMB - San Francisco Database Persistence >email: lauzon@us.ibm.com >phone: (507) 253-6966 T/L 553-6966 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Thomas Bergstraesser (Exchange) > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 11:39 AM > To: 'lauzon@us.ibm.com' > Cc: Andrew Layman > Subject: RE: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA > > Shawn, > we have developed the Open Information Model (OIM) a set of over 200 types > that describe meta data in the application development, database design, > and data warehousing domain. Part of this model is a complete database > schema model for relational, multidimensional, and legacy models. > > The OIM is described completely in UML and can be mapped onto different > implementation technologies. The interchange of meta data described by OIM > uses XML and we generate DTDs directly from the UML model. The DTD > provides the tags and structures to describe elements like schema, table, > column as well as cross relationships to components or executables. > > We have announced recently that we will move the OIM and its XML > Interchange Format to the Meta Data Coalition of which IBM is a council > member. We are currently in the process of removing all Microsoft specific > information from the model in order to make it technology-independent and > vendor-neutral. As its sounds this might be an ideal starting point for > your efforts and provides you with the additional benefit that your schema > can be stored in many existing repositories and displayed by over 60 > modeling tools. > > Our Web site http://www.microsoft.com/repository should provide you with > all the necessary information including a downloadable version of our SDK. > The SDK includes the UML model of the OIM, the DTD generator, and the DTDs > for all the different parts of the OIM as well as the necessary > import/export utilities. Note that this is all still focussed on the > Microsoft Repository technology. > > I hope this information is helpful for you and I could see significant > benefits if you would be able to align your representation. Feel free to > contact me if you have further questions or need more information. > - thomas > ... thread truncated ... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed Dec 16 22:48:23 1998 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: FW: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEC25@RED-MSG-08> Thomas Bergstraesser asked that I forward this to you: > XMI is a proposed OMG standard for the exchange of meta data based on MOF > (Meta Object Facility). MOF is an OMG standard for repositories, which > consists of a set of basic types and relationships used to implement > information models. MOF is a CORBA-specific object model. To apply XMI to > other component models, such as COM, requires wrapping or bridging with > their inherent integration and performance penalties. > > XMI defines the mapping of MOF objects and relationship into XML. However, > to be useful to store and interchange meta data, XMI must be used with > information models that capture the semantics of types, such as table, > column, transformation, or COM component. Such a type specification is > required for meta data to be accessed or interchanged in a meaningful way. > In absence of such information models, MOF and XMI are only enabling > technologies. > > One of the standard information models needed for meta data exchange is > UML. UML is a notation and a meta model that describes the semantics of > the notation. MOF and UML are two different models. However, the UML meta > model can be interpreted using MOF and therefore UML models can be > exchanged in XMI. The exchange of UML models between MOF/CORBA repository > prototypes of IBM /UNISYS / Oracle was demonstrated at an OMG meeting on > November 15, 1998. In a related activity, OMG issued an RFP for a Common > Data Warehousing Model (CDWM) with a submission deadline of Q4 1999. > > Microsoft currently does not see much customer demand for a > MOF/CORBA-based repository implementation, which in any case would be an > alien implementation in the COM world. Microsoft does, however, see the > value of the technology independent UML standard and has supported and > implemented it. UML is the core of the Open Information Model and > Microsoft's Visual Modeler and is the base for the UML model interchange > initiative currently supported by 60+ vendors. The initiative was > kicked-off with an interchange demonstration between Microsoft / Rational > / Platinum / Popkin / LogicWorks and others in January, 1997. > > Microsoft uses XML to interchange meta data described by the Open > Information Model (OIM), which covers analysis and design (UML), component > development and deployment (CDE), and database design and data warehousing > (DBM). The OIM is described in UML, and the XML Interchange Format (XIF) > for OIM is generated directly from its UML representation. It is therefore > technology independent and vendor neutral and can be implemented by any > repository or application. Microsoft and the leading repository vendors > have implemented the XML-based interchange for the Open Information Model > to enable customers to integrate meta data from many heterogeneous sources > in the application development and data warehousing domain. > > The use of pure XML to interchange meta data described by OIM seems > prudent if one considers current standard efforts in the W3C around XSL, > XQL, and XMLdata. These technologies will constitute the standard > framework for the exchange of meta data on the Web. The OIM as > specification of the semantic of meta data elements in the application > development and data warehousing domain will make use of these W3C > technologies whenever they become available and therefore protect your > investment. > > To summarize the different approaches for the interchange of meta data: > Open Information Model / XML: > * Open Information Model including UML shipping in SQL Server 7.0 > * XML Interchange Format generated from UML model shipping in SQL > Server 7.0 > * Implementation on multiple repositories available > (Informix, Microsoft, Softlab, Unisys, Sybase, Viasoft, NCR, Siemens, > Platinum) > > XMI/MOF: > * No common information model (UML prototype implementation, OMG RFP > for CDWM in Q4 '99) > * XML Meta Data Interchange (XMI) based on MOF/Corba model > * MOF/Corba repository implementation required (Unisys; announced by > IBM, Oracle, Select) > > Sorry for this lengthy memo stuffed with technlogy mumbel-bumble. From > Microsoft's perspective > the interchange of meta data in the application development (AD) and datra > warehousing (DW) area is (and should be) very simple: > > - OIM is the semantic description of meta data in the AD (includes UML) > and DW domain > - UML is the specification language for OIM to communicate the structure > and semantics > of its meta data typs in a formal way > - XML (and XQL, XSL, and XML schema description) is the interchange format > for meta data > described by OIM > > - thomas > > -----Original Message----- > ---forwards removed--- > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Carlson [mailto:dcarlson@ontogenics.com] > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 10:31 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA > > > After a brief scan of Microsoft's site on OIM and the associated XML > Interchange Format (XIF), I'm concerned and confused about the > conflicts > with the OMG's XML Metadata Interchange (XMI) specification. XMI is > in it's > second draft as a standard, and most of the large UML tools vendors > have > voiced support (IBM, Platinum, Rational and Oracle are co-authors). > > It appears that OIM and XIF are more focused on database and data > warehouse > integration, but they also claim full UML metamodel support. > Currently, I'm > focused on OMG's XMI as the likely standard for UML model > interchange. > However, I'm very interested on other opinions. > > Dave Carlson > Ontogenics Corp. > Boulder, Colorado > > At 12:04 PM 12/16/98 -0600, lauzon@us.ibm.com wrote: > >Thanks for all the response I got from this note. Two of these > >particularly look interesting. One is the OIM from Microsoft that > is > >described by Thomas Bergstraesser, and the other is the Metadata > >Interchange Specification (MDIS) from the Meta Data Coalition > (MDC). > > > >The MDIS seems to be almost exactly what I'm looking for to > describe > >relational databases. Unfortunately it doesn't really seem to be > in XML, > >although they do mention using XML to distribute these MDIS > documents. OIM > >has been submitted to the MDC to become a standard, but it seems > overly > >complex for what we're trying to do, although that might be just > because I > >haven't had enough exposure to it. What I'm not sure about is how > >widespread support is for MDIS in the XML community, or if there is > any > >thought about it whatsoever. Or is the trend for a standard based > upon > >OIM? > > > >Shawn Lauzon > >Department MMB - San Francisco Database Persistence > >email: lauzon@us.ibm.com > >phone: (507) 253-6966 T/L 553-6966 > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Dec 17 03:20:40 1998 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Borden, Jonathan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: Notations In-Reply-To: <367811b75933002@laurel.kp.org> Message-ID: <000c01be296b$d7473480$d3228018@jabr.ne.mediaone.net> At first glance it seems tempting to map MIME headers to XML as attributes. This doesn't work well. 1) attributes don't obey order as elements do. 2) MIME headers can be duplicated (for example the Received: list in an E-mail). For these reasons, I map MIME headers to elements in XMTP. http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net/documents/xmtp.htm The DTD is here: http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net/documents/xmtp.dtd Multiple transforms, some of which may include encryption etc, can be represented as encapsulated MIME messages, the order of transformation of which is required to be unambiguous. If you would like to test this, I have placed a demo at: mailto:test-xmtp@jabr.ne.mediaone.net Jonathan Borden JABR Technology Corp. http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net > > > There's always the option of creating a NOTATION which itself defines the > particular processing pipeline, as in > > > > where the information contained at the URL will tell you, in > addition to the > necessary info about each individual "notation", about the ordering of > processing inorder to recover the source data. > > But I think this example shows the limitations of the "general" solution > that NOTATIONS provide. Being general means that everyone has to > "reinvent" > the wheel in many cases on top of that generality. > > Paul V. Biron > SGML Business Analyst > Kaiser Permanente, So Cal. > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Thu Dec 17 03:34:36 1998 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (len bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: VRML DTD References: <3.0.32.19981124141430.00ce2230@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.1.32.19981125132454.00a78ff8@ifi.uio.no> <3.0.1.32.19981125182127.006c6124@ifi.uio.no> <366EAB37.1C049C4F@eng.sun.com> <3676EDD8.32C6@hiwaay.net> <3677F55F.10E6@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <36787B3A.5D30@hiwaay.net> As kindly pointed out by Richard Goerwitz, there is cruft in the VRML DTD I wrote (malformed comments, and CDATA in the content models). I am cleaning these up and will post a new version tomorrow at Jeff's ariadne site. I need to put together an XML test kit for this and will appreciate input on some simple tools to use. Yes, I can search for these but my time is limited and I want to give the W3D Consortium Enterprise WG the pointers tomorrow so they can also work on this. please send any suggestions to clbullar@ingr.com where i can get them during the day and pass them along to the wg. There is a window of opportunity for making a case that XML is a good way to do the next version of VRML (VRML NG). This is a limited window and there are strong cases to be made for and against it. Reasonable minds with a genuine concern for creating an interoperable, modular set of standards based on profiles are encourgaged to help. All of our communities can benefit. len bullard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Thu Dec 17 04:26:46 1998 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: Updated XArc spec available Message-ID: <006801be2975$716d1800$160016c0@jfinity1> I have updated the XArc specification with some more prose and examples. The latest version will always be available at the following URL from now on: http://www.jfinity.com/xarc/spec-current General information about XArc (including upcoming sample implementations) can be found at the XArc home page at: http://www.jfinity.com/xarc Its kind of sparse right now but I would like to put together as many use cases for XML linking as possible and make it accessible from the xarc home page. Please direct any comments to me at begeddov@jfinity.com or if your brave to the xlxp mailing list :-) To subscribe to the xlxp-dev list, send an email message to majordomo@fsc.fujitsu.com with the following in the body of the message: subscribe xlxp-dev Thanks, Gabe Beged-Dov www.jfinity.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbottet at infogrames.fr Thu Dec 17 08:30:20 1998 From: rbottet at infogrames.fr (Richard BOTTET) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <001b01be2997$a8be5900$a001420a@rbottet.infogrames.fr> unsubscribe xml-dev xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Thu Dec 17 10:09:50 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: DTD-to-DB SCHEMA In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19981216183106.0125bc68@terminal.ontogenics.com> Message-ID: <001101be29a4$b9f466d0$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > After a brief scan of Microsoft's site on OIM and the associated XML > Interchange Format (XIF), I'm concerned and confused about the conflicts > with the OMG's XML Metadata Interchange (XMI) specification. There's also CDIF (Case Data Interchange Format) ( http://www.cdif.org ) though I've no idea of it's current status and can't get through to its web site this morning. When I last looked CDIF were also doing an XML encoding of UML models. Do remember that there are at least 3 communities using the word "metadata" in subtly different ways. In the classical database world it means "information about types". In the document world it tends to mean "information about document instances, other than their content". In the data warehousing world it means (I think - correct me if I'm wrong) information about the dimensions on which the data is organised, e.g. time, geography, product categories. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From colin at hasc.com Thu Dec 17 13:11:58 1998 From: colin at hasc.com (Colin Bradley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: current status of XPointer Message-ID: Hello, I'd like to find out what the current status of the XPointer language specification is. I notice the most current draft is from March 1998, after which there appears to be very little mention of it, with the exception of the links back to the existing Linking Working Group docs on the Activity pages.. Any updates or pointers to such updates would be appreciated, should anyone have any. Thank you, -- Colin Bradley hutchison avenue software corporation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Steve_Allen at crow.bmc.com Thu Dec 17 16:04:05 1998 From: Steve_Allen at crow.bmc.com (Steve_Allen@crow.bmc.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: VRML DTD Message-ID: Len Bullard sent the following message: =================================================================== > For discussions relative to the Virtual Reality Markup Language (VRML), > I have created an XML DTD for the current VRML97 nodes. This is a > direct mapping of the existing nodes as defined in the ISO > specification > in a profile matching that of proposals made for a geometry subset. > Completing the DTD for all VRML97 nodes is straightforward and may be done. > > Another DTD has been created by Daniel Lipkin (Oracle) which abstracts > the VRML model one level higher (nodes with type= attributes and formal > productions for datatypes). This DTD can express all of the current > VRML nodes. > > If there is interest, I will post the addresses where these DTDs can > be found. I am very much interested in getting these DTDs, please either post the DTD location or email them to me; I would appreciate it greatly. Steve Allen BMC Software, Incorporated steve_allen@bmc.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dante at mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov Thu Dec 17 16:43:52 1998 From: dante at mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: Importing XSL Message-ID: Does anyone know how exactly you tell the xml document which xsl document to point to (in a way that Microsoft IE 5.0 will support it). Also, is it me or does microsoft IE 5.0 have a lot of bugs. Dante M. Lee Code 588 NASA/GSFC Greenbelt MD 20771 Voice = 301-521-1077 Bldg = 23 Rm = W415 Email = dante@mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov dante4@hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Dec 17 16:54:57 1998 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: current status of XPointer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981217115449.00feb3b8@pop.uunet.ca> The Working Group met in November to discuss work on a Requirements Document for XLink & XPointer. Discussion is underway on the WG and IG mailing lists. I cannot predict when we will see a new WD. Stay tuned. At 08:10 AM 12/17/98 -0500, Colin Bradley wrote: > >Hello, > > I'd like to find out what the current status of the XPointer > language specification is. I notice the most current draft > is from March 1998, after which there appears to be very > little mention of it, with the exception of the links back > to the existing Linking Working Group docs on the Activity > pages.. > > Any updates or pointers to such updates would be appreciated, > should anyone have any. > > Thank you, > >-- > > Colin Bradley > hutchison avenue software corporation > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Email: murray@yuri.org Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Thu Dec 17 17:06:52 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: Importing XSL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <002301be29df$03d26b00$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> >Also, is it me or does [XSL in] microsoft IE 5.0 have a lot of bugs. > In my limited experience MSXSL has a lot of unexpected behaviours but the specification is so poorly written that I don't know whether they are bugs or features. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Steven_DeRose at Brown.edu Thu Dec 17 17:10:02 1998 From: Steven_DeRose at Brown.edu (Steve DeRose) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: XPointer implementations In-Reply-To: References: <3678B75D.4FC12DB9@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr> <3.0.32.19981212104749.00aeaca0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: I've just put a first-draft (!!!) page out at http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd/XML-Linking/xptr-implementations.html that lists the implementations I've heard of for XPointer; 10 so far. Please check it out and send me updated information, especially if you're one of the implementors and I've got something wrong, or you know a URL I can add for better info on one of the implementations, or you know of one I haven't listed (I'll bet I've missed as many as I've found, since I haven't been watching especially closely). I'll try to keep this page updated as people report things, but I make no promises of merchantibility or fitness for any particular use etc., especially at this first-cut stage. I've made no attempt to evaluate these, I just wanted to get them all down in one place with whatever info I already had. I'll also add a similar page for XLink implementations if people send me info on that too. Thanks! Steve DeRose Editor, XPointer Steven_DeRose@Brown.edu; http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd Chief Scientist, Scholarly Technology Group, and Adjunct Associate Professor, Brown University; Chief Scientist, Inso Corporation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Dec 17 17:27:59 1998 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: XPointer implementations In-Reply-To: References: <3678B75D.4FC12DB9@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr> <3.0.32.19981212104749.00aeaca0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19981217182529.0069bfa4@ifi.uio.no> * Steve DeRose > >I've just put a first-draft (!!!) page out at >http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd/XML-Linking/xptr-implementations.html The URL is wrong, it should be: >Please check it out and send me updated information, especially if you're >one of the implementors and I've got something wrong or you know a URL I >can add for better info on one of the implementations, or you know of one I >haven't listed Well, you'll find more information about my implementation, as well as the correct URL and a few other implementations if you take a look at: If you want to cooperate on keeping the lists up to date and in sync, just let me know. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amalakov at ptc.com Fri Dec 18 00:36:30 1998 From: amalakov at ptc.com (Andy Malakov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ Message-ID: <003101be2a1f$62194a90$ba61fd84@ptc.com> Hello All! Can somebody give me an information about XML parsers/libraries on C++ (other than MSXML)? Thank you in advance, Andy Malakov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Fri Dec 18 14:31:25 1998 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ Message-ID: <199812181431.JAA12668@chmls06.mediaone.net> >Can somebody give me an information about XML parsers/libraries on C++ >(other than MSXML)? Check out James Clark's sp. This is nominally an SGML parser, but it has a validating XML mode which I have found useful. For non-validating parsing, check out the Mozilla parser expat. Check out the xml-dev archives for lots of info on expat use and behaviour. I believe both packages have generous open source licenses, including for commercial use. Check out www.jclark.com. Regards, Charles Reitzel creitzel@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Fri Dec 18 15:51:07 1998 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:07 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ In-Reply-To: <199812181431.JAA12668@chmls06.mediaone.net> (message from Charles Reitzel on Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:31:00 -0500 (EST)) Message-ID: <199812181549.KAA15480@ruby.ora.com> [Charles Reitzel] > For non-validating parsing, check out the Mozilla parser expat. Just for clarification, expat is also by James Clark. It is *used* in Mozilla, but does not originate there. -Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cameron at cs.sfu.ca Fri Dec 18 18:10:27 1998 From: cameron at cs.sfu.ca (Rob Cameron) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ Message-ID: <199812181810.KAA11944@cs.sfu.ca> > > Can somebody give me an information about XML parsers/libraries on C++ > (other than MSXML)? > Shallow parsing of XML in C++ can use the REX/flex++ combination. See http://www.cs.sfu.ca/~cameron/REX.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amalakov at ptc.com Fri Dec 18 18:35:23 1998 From: amalakov at ptc.com (Andy Malakov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces Message-ID: <00b901be2ab6$1cfc3de0$ba61fd84@ptc.com> Hello All! Dummy question: I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the external/internal DTDs. For example, I want to define namespace "myns" and use with each DTD declaration: Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? Thank you in advance, All the Best! Andy Malakov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smuench at us.oracle.com Fri Dec 18 18:41:52 1998 From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: ANN: PLSXML Utils/Demos for Oracle Message-ID: <000b01be2ab6$4f182730$54561990@us.oracle.com> Hello, If you're working with XML and an Oracle Database, or are curious about trying, then you may be interested in checking out some sample PL/SQL-based XML utilities and demos we've posted today at: http://www.oracle.com/xml These utilties are all written in PL/SQL and work in any Oracle7 or Oracle8 database. You'll also find new postings for Oracle's XML Parser in Java and an annotated version of Oracle's XML98 Keynote Address with added slides explaining how the demos we did there worked. http://www.oracle.com/xml/xml98/s001.html Full source for the PL/SQL utilities and demos are included in the "PLSXML" suite below, downloadable from the site. http://www.oracle.com/xml/plsxml/index.html ----- The "PLSXML" suite of PL/SQL-package-based utilities comprises: DBXML - For generating rich, nested XML documents from SQL queries DBDOM - For creating, parsing, traversing, and searching XML Documents using a subset of the Document Object Model API using PL/SQL DBXSL - For generating a database-driven XSL stylesheet for a tree-rendering of data (used by one of the demos) along with a suite of XML/Oracle demos which I use to show them off: 1. Three-tier Web Page Validation Using XML/Oracle 2. DHTML Manipulation of Rich XML Query Results 3. Browser-based Search Results in XML from the Database 4. Query and Tree Visualization of Oracle Data 5. "Realtime" stock quotes in XML, using XSL Stylesheets 6. Oracle Developer Form querying XML-based data from a URL Demos 1-5 above leverage the latest XML/XSL features of IE 5.0 Beta2 leveraging XML/XSL delivered on-the-fly from the database. These are PL/SQL packages which I have found useful in my own XML Evangelism inside and outside the company and I hope can help others learn about how much of a natural fit XML and Oracle are. Have fun. ____________________________________________________________________________ Steve Muench Consulting PM & XML Technology Evangelist Java Business Objects Development Team Oracle Corporation smuench@oracle.com http://geocities.com/~smuench Oracle XML Homepage http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981218/94fb2b3f/attachment.htm From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Dec 18 18:47:10 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces References: <00b901be2ab6$1cfc3de0$ba61fd84@ptc.com> Message-ID: <367AA315.C5AB01BA@locke.ccil.org> Andy Malakov wrote: > I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the > external/internal DTDs. > For example, I want to define namespace "myns" and use with each DTD > declaration: > > > > Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? You can't as such. Prefixes appearing in DTDs have no definite meaning; the meaning is learned from examining the context where the prefixed element "myns:point" appears. Whatever "myns:" means at that time will dictate the meaning. (Yes, this sucks. Live with it.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mscardin at us.oracle.com Fri Dec 18 18:52:04 1998 From: mscardin at us.oracle.com (Mark Scardina) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: ANN: Oracle XML Parser for Java Message-ID: <002d01be2ab7$66305d60$47be1990@mscardin-pc.us.oracle.com> As the first component of the XML infrastructure, which will serve as the foundation of Oracle's announced XML support, the Oracle XML Parser for Java v1.0.0 (Beta) is now available for downloading and testing on the new Oracle Technology Network (OTN) XML site located at http://technet.oracle.com. Supports validation and non-validation modes Built-in Error Recovery until fatal error. Supports W3C XML 1.0 Recommendation. Intergrated Document Object Model (DOM) Level 1.0 API Integrated SAX 1.0 API Supports W3C Proposed Recomendation for XML Namespaces Supports documents in the following encodings: UTF-8, UTF-16, ISO-10646-UCS-2, ISO-10646-UCS-4, US-ASCII, EBCDIC-CP-US, ISO-8859-1, and Shift_SJIS Additionally, an XML Forum has been opened on OTN to provide a collaborative area for bug reporting, technical support, and discussing other Oracle/XML issues. While you must register to gain access, there are no restrictions or fees. Mark V. Scardina Sr. Product Manager - Core Development Server Technologies - Oracle Corporation Oracle XML News http://www.oracle.com/xml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Steven_DeRose at Brown.edu Fri Dec 18 18:55:27 1998 From: Steven_DeRose at Brown.edu (Steve DeRose) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: XPointer implementations In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19981217182529.0069bfa4@ifi.uio.no> References: <3678B75D.4FC12DB9@comeng.chungnam.ac.kr> <3.0.32.19981212104749.00aeaca0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: At 1:25 PM -0400 12/17/98, Lars Marius Garshol wrote: >* Steve DeRose >> >>I've just put a first-draft (!!!) page out at >>http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd/XML-Linking/xptr-implementations.html > >The URL is wrong, it should be: > > Actually, it was the filename that was wrong; it's fixed, so the URL I mailed out is now correct. Sorry for the screwup. Steven_DeRose@Brown.edu; http://www.stg.brown.edu/~sjd Chief Scientist, Scholarly Technology Group, and Adjunct Associate Professor, Brown University; Chief Scientist, Inso Corporation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Fri Dec 18 19:13:18 1998 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEC4D@RED-MSG-08> DTDs and namespaces are not fully integrated yet. You can easily use namespace prefixes in your DTDs, much as you show, but you must then be careful that your instances use exactly the same namespace prefix. Hopefully, future work on XML schemas will give you the ability to declare namespaces in schemas (DTD being a type of schema) and then you can validate based on the URI the prefix stands for, not just the literal characters of the prefix. We are not there yet. -----Original Message----- From: Andy Malakov [mailto:amalakov@ptc.com] Sent: Friday, December 18, 1998 10:42 AM To: W3C XML Developers Subject: External DTD & namespaces Hello All! Dummy question: I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the external/internal DTDs. For example, I want to define namespace "myns" and use with each DTD declaration: Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? Thank you in advance, All the Best! Andy Malakov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From falk at icon.at Fri Dec 18 22:55:19 1998 From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: PEReferences in ElementDecls (Parsing of DTDs) Message-ID: I have a question concerning the correct parsing and interpretation of PEReferences in DTDs. The "spec.dtd" W3C Document-Type-Definition (DTD) for Specification-Documents (http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-19980521.dtd) contains several lines of the form: This seems to be an Element-Declaration that uses a Parameter-Entity Reference ([69] PEReference ::= '%' Name ';'). The current XML 1.0 Specification, however, includes the following EBNF-Rules for defining Element-Declarations inside a DTD: [45] elementdecl ::= ' S contentspec < l > S? '>' [46] contentspec ::= 'EMPTY' | 'ANY' | Mixed | children [47] children ::= (choice | seq) ('?' | '*' | '+')? [48] cp ::= (Name | choice | seq) ('?' | '*' | '+')? [49] choice ::= '(' S? cp ( < l >? '|' < l >? cp < l > )* S? ')' [50] seq ::= '(' < l >? cp ( < l >? ',' < l >? cp < l > )* S? ')' [51] Mixed ::= '(' < l >? '#PCDATA' (S? '|' < l >? Name < l >)* S? ')*' | '(' S? '#PCDATA' S? ')' None of these rules allow for a PEReference inside an elementdecl! There are, however, several textual references regarding the validity constraints of nestes PEs and even an example that uses a PEReference: In order to allow for this elementdecl to be valid, at least one of the EBNF-Rules would need to be modified: [48] cp ::= ( ( Name | PEReference ) | choice | seq) ('?' | '*' | '+')? The same is also true for Attribute-List Declarations and many more things inside a DTD..... So the question is: is the XML-grammar inside the XML 1.0 Spec incomplete? Is there a new version? What rules do need to be adapted to allow for PEReferences? Any comments would be greatly appreciated! Alexander Falk Icon Informations-Systeme GmbH mailto:falk@icon.at xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From falk at icon.at Fri Dec 18 23:06:09 1998 From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ Message-ID: > Can somebody give me an information about XML parsers/libraries on C++ > (other than MSXML)? We are in the process of releasing "Parso" to the public within the next two weeks. Parso is our new generalized EBNF-driven parser that can be utilitzed for almost any language by specifying it's grammar in an EBNF-like control-file. Parso is fully object-oriented, is written entirely in ANSI C++ and is _VERY_ fast. We are currently using Parso for parsing DTDs and XML-Files in our forthcoming XMLmagic product. By fine-tuning the grammar control-file you can customize the parsing behavior to precisely suit your application needs! Parso will be available with full source-code downloadable from the Internet. In order to use Parso in your application you will have to acquire a license from Icon (licensing will range form $0 for educational applications to $29 for shareware products; prices for commercial licenses have not yet been finalized). If you are interested, please e-mail me and I will try to arrange for a preview version to be sent to you within the next few days... Alexander Falk Icon Informations-Systeme GmbH mailto:falk@icon.at xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From colds at nwlink.com Sat Dec 19 00:11:03 1998 From: colds at nwlink.com (Chris Olds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: PEReferences in ElementDecls (Parsing of DTDs) Message-ID: <00f701be2ae3$d3ec15c0$dc59fcc6@albert.salsa.walldata.com> You ask: >So the question is: is the XML-grammar inside the XML 1.0 Spec incomplete? >Is there a new version? What rules do need to be adapted to allow for >PEReferences? The answer is found just after production [28] in the XML spec: ================================ Document Type Definition [28] doctypedecl ::= '' [29] markupdecl ::= elementdecl | AttlistDecl | EntityDecl | NotationDecl | PI | Comment The markup declarations may be made up in whole or in part of the replacement text of parameter entities. The productions later in this specification for individual nonterminals (elementdecl, AttlistDecl, and so on) describe the declarations after all the parameter entities have been included. ================================ Tim Bray's (excellent) annotation on this says (in part) "This little paragraph is awfully important. [...] the grammar describes what the text looks like after [parameter entities ]have all been expanded." (full text is at http://www.xml.com/axml/notes/PEs-1.html ). Another easily overlooked gotcha about PEs is that they can be used for parts of a markupdecl ([29]) (e.g. all or part of a content model) in the external part(s) of a DTD, but can only replace an entire markupdecl in the internal portion of a DTD. /cco xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Sat Dec 19 01:33:34 1998 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Borden, Jonathan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAEC4D@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <000c01be2aef$381e1b00$d3228018@jabr.ne.mediaone.net> you can declare a namespace for an element and its children within a DTD (e.g.): since the attribute is fixed, the namespace must use the given urn. Jonathan Borden JABR http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net > > > DTDs and namespaces are not fully integrated yet. You can easily use > namespace prefixes in your DTDs, much as you show, but you must then be > careful that your instances use exactly the same namespace prefix. > > Hopefully, future work on XML schemas will give you the ability to declare > namespaces in schemas (DTD being a type of schema) and then you > can validate > based on the URI the prefix stands for, not just the literal characters of > the prefix. We are not there yet. > > > > Hello All! > > Dummy question: > > I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the > external/internal DTDs. > For example, I want to define namespace "myns" and use with each DTD > declaration: > > > > Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? > > Thank you in advance, > > All the Best! > Andy Malakov > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sblackbu at erols.com Sat Dec 19 12:24:48 1998 From: sblackbu at erols.com (Samuel R. Blackburn) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: XML parser in C++ Message-ID: <002501be2b4a$8a19bf30$01010101@sammy> Take a look at the XML classes in the freeware Win32 Foundation Classes (WFC). http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sam_blackburn/wfc.htm -----Original Message----- From: Andy Malakov To: W3C XML Developers Date: Thursday, December 17, 1998 7:38 PM Subject: XML parser in C++ >Hello All! > >Can somebody give me an information about XML parsers/libraries on C++ >(other than MSXML)? > >Thank you in advance, >Andy Malakov > > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From db at Eng.Sun.COM Sun Dec 20 19:18:35 1998 From: db at Eng.Sun.COM (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces References: <00b901be2ab6$1cfc3de0$ba61fd84@ptc.com> Message-ID: <367D4C39.36135698@eng.sun.com> Andy Malakov wrote: > > I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the > external/internal DTDs. > For example, I want to define namespace "myns" and use with each DTD > declaration: > > > > Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? Keep in mind that if you put this in some external parameter entity (e.g. the unnamed one in some nonvalidating parsers will give you a hard time. So you may want to consider _also_ putting the declaration into your instances: 42 -66 Where namespaces and DTDs really clash is when you might want to change the prefix ("myns") associated with some URI. But namespaces actually do something that DTDs can't do -- they tie individual elements (and attributes, though sadly not PIs) to a specific entity, so semantics can be tied to something more useful than an application's convention about what a TITLE is. (Real estate vs novels, etc.) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Mon Dec 21 00:18:01 1998 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: xml diff? Message-ID: <019401be2c76$12f63140$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Suppose I want the "diff" between two xml files. I can imagine a few approaches: - very-cheasy: just use "diff" - almost-as-cheasy: first do s/\>/\>\nUNIQUE/g to put the tags on separate lines, then use "diff", then restore by s/\nUNIQUE//g - graph-theoretic: surely there must be some CS work on algorithms for finding the least cost path between two trees, expressed as a sequence of operations? the simplest is with just the operations of add/delete of subtrees, but move and copy are interesting too. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Mon Dec 21 00:34:02 1998 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: parallelism in presentation? Message-ID: <019701be2c78$5d657360$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Suppose I want a web page showing weather in several parts of the world, aggregating content from a variety of servers. I naturally want the loading of that constituent content to be driven by the browser from those servers, in parallel. Today, that can be done easily with the IMG tag. If I want html loaded from different places, I either have to use frames (gag), or some javascript hacks (gag again), or something unportable such as activex or java (coughing up blood). How would this work in the xml/xsl/xlp future? Presumably I would start with a smallish xml file sent to the browser, which has a variety of links to other xml content from other servers. Those links would have whatever attributes are necessary to indicate that the semantics are to pull in the pointed-to content as if it were inlined. Now, some of that pointed-to content will load faster than others in that page. Some will fail to load at all. Meanwhile, the layout engine is hopefully able to do something useful. In particular, the xsl style sheet may actually be suppressing some of the xml anyway, so failures to load in those subtrees shouldn't matter. While visible content is loading, it would of course be nice if bounding boxes and temporary labels/content are shown. This basically requires a layout engine that can act on the xml with the xsl pattern matches acting as closures when the actual "expanded" xml isn't available yet. Has this all been spec'd yet? Are there working examples? What is the right terminology? What does this mean for the DOM? It strikes me that this isn't a "nice-to-have"; this issue is going to have to be confronted somehow as soon as xml becomes more available on the web. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lauzon at us.ibm.com Mon Dec 21 16:57:42 1998 From: lauzon at us.ibm.com (lauzon@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:08 2004 Subject: xml diff? Message-ID: <852566E1.005D13AC.00@D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com> IBM has a tool available from its AlphaWorks pages called XMLTreeDiff which is able to "perform fast differentiation and update of DOM structures". It is avaliable at http://www.alphaWorks.ibm.com/formula/XML. Shawn Lauzon Department MMB - San Francisco Database Persistence http://www.ibm.com/Java/Sanfrancisco/ email: lauzon@us.ibm.com "Mark D. Anderson" on 12/20/98 06:08:37 PM Please respond to "Mark D. Anderson" To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Shawn Lauzon/Rochester/IBM) Subject: xml diff? Suppose I want the "diff" between two xml files. I can imagine a few approaches: - very-cheasy: just use "diff" - almost-as-cheasy: first do s/\>/\>\nUNIQUE/g to put the tags on separate lines, then use "diff", then restore by s/\nUNIQUE//g - graph-theoretic: surely there must be some CS work on algorithms for finding the least cost path between two trees, expressed as a sequence of operations? the simplest is with just the operations of add/delete of subtrees, but move and copy are interesting too. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Dec 21 20:10:32 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: Full Disclosure II: What XML Processors Should And May Do Message-ID: <367EAB1C.641383B3@locke.ccil.org> This report, like its predecessor, is gleaned from the text of the XML 1.0 Recommendation. Clause numbers are in parentheses. A. An XML processor should: accept ":" as a name-start character (2.3) treat undeclared attributes as CDATA (3.3.3) apply URL-encoding to URIs with invalid characters (4.2.2) do case-insensitive recognition of encoding names (4.3.3) B. An XML processor may, at user option: normalize character data, Unicode-style (1.2 s.v. "match") warn about undeclared element types in content models (3.2) or ATTLISTs (3.3) warn about multiple ATTLISTs for an element or multiple declarations for an attribute (3.3) warn about multiply declared entities (4.2) C. An XML processor may, on its own decision: provide unprocessed input to the application after a fatal error (1.2 s.v. "fatal error") pass the text of comments to the application (2.5) use public identifiers to generate alternative URIs (4.2.2, 4.8) provide additional context-dependent information for notations (4.7) recognize non-UTF encodings (4.3.3) when not validating, include text of external entity in place of a reference (4.4.3) warn about a bad version number in the XML declaration (2.8) signal an error if system identifier for external entity contains a fragment identifier such as "#xxx" (4.2.2) signal an error on non-deterministic content models (E) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From seankang at yahoo.com Mon Dec 21 21:51:31 1998 From: seankang at yahoo.com (Sean Kang) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: NumberFormatException in Parser() Message-ID: <19981221215105.3123.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> I encountered a NumberFormatException in the msxml package recently. public Parser() { String version = System.getProperty("java.version"); Float fver = new Float(version); jdk11 = (fver.doubleValue() >= 1.1) ? true : false; caseInsensitive = false; } The version value is "1.1.4" and the exception is thrown when executing the method fver.doubleValue(). I tried to fix this myself in my own local installation by opening up the XMLJavaParse.dsp but I eventually ran into another problem where a certain package was not available: com.ms.osp.* Where would I find this com.ms.osp package?? Or, does anyone know the cause of this problem? I was able to use the parser package before without this problem ( a couple of weeks ago). _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pvelikho at cs.ucsd.edu Tue Dec 22 00:54:50 1998 From: pvelikho at cs.ucsd.edu (Pavel Velikhov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: xml diff? Message-ID: <199812220054.QAA10232@beowulf.ucsd.edu> Mark D. Anderson wrote: > > Suppose I want the "diff" between two xml files. > > I can imagine a few approaches: > - graph-theoretic: > surely there must be some CS work on algorithms for finding > the least cost path between two trees, expressed as a sequence > of operations? the simplest is with just the operations of > add/delete of subtrees, but move and copy are interesting too. > > -mda Here is a great paper on edit distance between trees (includes rather fancy edit commands, the result in an NP-complete problem however. But you can choose any subset that seems useful and efficient): S. Chawathe, H. Garcia-Molina "Meaningful Change Detection in Structured Data", SIGMOD 1997, http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/papers/bbdiff.ps Pavel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Tue Dec 22 01:28:39 1998 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: xml diff? Message-ID: <02c401be2d49$30ec2f00$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Pavel Velikhov wrote: >Here is a great paper on edit distance between trees (includes rather fancy edit commands, the result in an NP-complete problem however. But >you can choose any subset that seems useful and efficient): > >S. Chawathe, H. Garcia-Molina "Meaningful Change Detection in Structured Data", SIGMOD 1997, http://www-db.stanford.edu/pub/papers/bbdiff.ps Just what i was looking for, thanks. Takes me back to the good old days, when i didn't just do engineering. Regarding various people's references to ibm's xml diff -- unfortunately they don't seem to give out code. I can't believe someone would think there is a proprietary interest in something like that, but there it is. Maybe I should take out a patent on "An efficient difference algorithm for structured textual markup". I bet I could get it through the PTO. (If IBM didn't beat me to it, that is....) -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us Tue Dec 22 02:32:14 1998 From: ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us (Ken MacLeod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: xml diff? In-Reply-To: "Mark D. Anderson"'s message of Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:08:37 -0800 References: <019401be2c76$12f63140$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Message-ID: another reference from when I asked this question on comp.text.sgml a while back: Joe English wrote: >Ken MacLeod wrote: >>* Does anyone know of references for tree-based differencing >>algorithms? The trees in question are groves, of course, but simply >>comparing hash values of branches doesn't seem to cover the problem. > > Barnard, David T.; Clarke, Gwen; Duncan, Nicholas. Tree-to-Tree > Correction for Document Trees. Queen's University Technical Report > 95-372 [Revision of Technical Report 91-315]. Kingston, Ontario: > Department of Computing and Information Science, Queen's University, > 1995. > >available at: > > > >contains a comprehensive survey of tree comparison algorithms. -- Ken MacLeod ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From liamquin at interlog.com Tue Dec 22 08:26:35 1998 From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: xml diff? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: There is a really "dumb" but sometimes useful approach at the purely text level. You can use Unix diff more or less as follows: (1) turn newline into control-A newline (say) (2) turn space outside tags into space newline (3) insert newline before and after each tag (4) format tags so they atr (5) use Unix diff on the two processed files (6) reverse the processing before presenting the diffs to the user. I've seen shell scripts to do this floating around. Heck, I think I might even have written one :-) There are plenty of papers on tree differences, and I think others have already mnentioned some. Eila Kuikka did a thesis on processing structured documents using a syntax-directed approach (Kuopio 1996) that may be useful, too, as one starting point for investigating the theory. Lee -- Liam Quin, GroveWare Inc., Toronto; The barefoot programmer l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Tue Dec 22 09:36:03 1998 From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: xml diff? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501be2d8d$c301db30$7008e391@bra01wmhkay.bra01.icl.co.uk> > > There is a really "dumb" but sometimes useful approach at the > purely text level. > > You can use Unix diff more or less as follows: > [ (1-4) normalize the XML text ] > (5) use Unix diff on the two processed files You could of course use James Clark's "canonical XML" normalizer to achieve steps 1-4. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Tue Dec 22 13:59:37 1998 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: RFC: CGI::ToXML Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A8000113699D@eukbant101.ericsson.se> http://www.fastnetltd.ndirect.co.uk/Perl/CGI-ToXML-0.01.tar.gz Sorry to XML-Dev people who aren't interested in web based XML, or perl. This is a first stab at a module to create XML from HTML forms via the CGI.pm library. It uses a naming convention for form variables to construct arbitrary XML on the server. The naming convention is: and for attribute setting: It's far from perfect, the elements must come in the order that they are to appear in the XML, and the use of colons prevents the use of namespaces (but that can change to e.g. forward slashes), and there are numerous bugs, but it could be of use to some people. Please provide me with as much feedback as possible. Things I'm interested in are: The design of the naming convention Bugs Module Design Bugs that I know about are: - It doesn't cope particularly well with attributes - It doesn't do any escaping (i.e. put an & in your form and it will just put an ampersand in the XML). - It may have problems with certain XML structures, such as repeating groups of elements. And Merry Christmas Everyone! Matt. -- http://come.to/fastnet Perl on Win32, PerlScript, ASP, Database, XML GCS(GAT) d+ s:+ a-- C++ UL++>UL+++$ P++++$ E- W+++ N++ w--@$ O- M-- !V !PS !PE Y+ PGP- t+ 5 R tv+ X++ b+ DI++ D G-- e++ h--->z+++ R+++ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjaakkol at cs.Helsinki.FI Tue Dec 22 14:37:57 1998 From: jjaakkol at cs.Helsinki.FI (Jani Jaakkola) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: sgrep-1.91a - SGML and XML search and indexing tool Message-ID: Sgrep-1.91a has been made available in source and binary forms. Binaries are available for Win32, HP-UX, Linux, OSF1 and Solaris platforms. Sgrep is a tool to search and index text, SGML, XML and HTML files using structured patterns. New features in version 1.91a include: - Nearness operators for both ordered and unordered nearness. - Support for 16-bit wide query terms (this really means, that Sgrep now supports Unicode) - Support for UTF-16 and UTF-8 encodings - 'parenting' operator is now an order of magnitude faster (in the common case) - Sgrep now emits and parses #line-directives, which allows for more accurate error reporting - An option to query terms from index files - Many bug fixes - Introduces some new bugs (hopefully not as many as I fixed). With version 1.91 I have actually implemented all the new features I ever planned to have in Sgrep-2. There are still things to do, but they are mostly small enchantments compared to the work required for introducing Unicode support to Sgrep. So now I am waiting for your suggestions, while I am updating the documentation. Should I: - Add support for using Sgrep from Perl scripts? - Create examples of how to use Sgrep as a local search engine for WWW-servers? - Make Sgrep fully XML-comformant? (With Unicode support this is now possible) - Something else? - Forget Sgrep, because it isn't really useful? For more information about sgrep: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep.html For a more complete description of the new features see the file README in sgrep distribution or at: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep/README.txt For downloading sgrep use: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep/downloading.html Merry christmas! - Jani xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Tue Dec 22 15:01:02 1998 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: sgrep-1.91a - SGML and XML search and indexing tool Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A8000113699E@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jani Jaakkola [SMTP:jjaakkol@cs.Helsinki.FI] > > Should I: > > - Add support for using Sgrep from Perl scripts? > The "killer" app for me would be an XS module, so that when I use mod_perl I don't have the process overhead. > - Create examples of how to use Sgrep as a local search engine for > WWW-servers? > Yes please. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kyte at VirtualPrototypes.CA Tue Dec 22 15:14:47 1998 From: kyte at VirtualPrototypes.CA (John Kyte) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: NumberFormatException in Parser() References: <19981221215105.3123.rocketmail@send101.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <367FB697.937E9A37@virtualprototypes.ca> I ran into the same problem you can recompile Parser.java with a hack like this: public Parser() { /* DEBUG: version strings 1.1.x are not valid floating point numbers String version = System.getProperty("java.version"); Float fver = new Float(version); */ Float fver = new Float("1.1"); jdk11 = (fver.doubleValue() >= 1.1) ? true : false; caseInsensitive = false; } I'm using Sun's JDK not J++ so I can't comment on the .dsp problem. Sean Kang wrote: > > I encountered a NumberFormatException in the msxml package recently. > > public Parser() > { > String version = System.getProperty("java.version"); > Float fver = new Float(version); > jdk11 = (fver.doubleValue() >= 1.1) ? true : false; > caseInsensitive = false; > } > > The version value is "1.1.4" and the exception is thrown when > executing the method fver.doubleValue(). > > I tried to fix this myself in my own local installation by opening up > the XMLJavaParse.dsp but I eventually ran into another problem where a > certain package was not available: com.ms.osp.* Where would I find > this com.ms.osp package?? > > Or, does anyone know the cause of this problem? I was able to use the > parser package before without this problem ( a couple of weeks ago). > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- John Kyte 514-341-3874 ext 370 Software Designer, Advanced Engineering kyte@virtualprototypes.ca Virtual Prototypes Inc 4700 de la Savanne Suite 300 Montreal Quebec Canada H4P1T7 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ewong at opensesame.com Tue Dec 22 15:24:57 1998 From: ewong at opensesame.com (Eddy Wong) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: Any PGML demos out there? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19981222103300.009e5a10@mail.opensesame.com> At XML '98, the Adobe folks showed a PGML demo. Is it available anywhere? I only found press releases at the Adobe site. Eddy. ........................................................... Eddy Wong Bowne Internet Solutions - Boston Open Sesame Product Development p: (617) 218-2424 f: (617) 218-2401 ewong@opensesame.com http://www.opensesame.com/os.html http://www.bowneinternet.com ........................................................... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Tue Dec 22 17:25:52 1998 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: [ANN] Silfide XML Parser - 0.82 Released Message-ID: <199812221722.SAA19681@chimay.loria.fr> Silfide XML Parser 0.82 Release is now available at: http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/EN/sxp/ The Silfide Working Group is happy to announce the availability of the Silfide XML Parser (SXP, v0.82 - Tue Dec 22 1998 ), a release of our validating XML Parser writing in Java. SXP entirely implements the XML 1.0 Recommendation and most of its satellite recommendations: - Document Object Model Level 1 (DOM REC 1 October, 1998) - XML Namespaces (WD 16 September 1998) - XPointer (WD 03-03-1998) - XLink (WD 03-03-1998) SXP provides also a driver for the SAX interface (fr.loria.xml.sax.SAXDriver). Both of the XML and XPointer parsers are developed with the tool JavaCC. Changes from last revision: - Implements the DOM REC 1.0 - 1 October, 1998 - Added a flag to validate or not a Document even if the DTD is provided (default, SXP will validate) - ID/IDREF checking is done during validation - Implementation of the DOMImplementation interface. Construct a DOM Document. - An XML Writer that format (tabbed, indented) an XML document. An interface is provided to specify your own XMLOutputFormat. - Uses now JavaCC0.8pre2 (was using JavaCC 0.72) - Some bugs has been fixed (thanks for your bug reports) - Some new bugs may have been introduced (!) Java source files, java classes, some samples and documentation are freely available here: http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/EN/sxp/ SILFIDE is a project of CNRS and AUPELF-UREF. Server SILFIDE, as an interactive server, wants to offer to the whole of the French-speaking university community working starting from the language (linguists, teachers, data processing specialists...) a tool user-friendly and reasoned for the handling of electronic resources. A more detailed description of the Silfide project is available here: http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/ We are waiting for all of your comments, questions and suggestions. Merry Christmas ! Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide * Projet Aquarelle : http://aqua.inria.fr ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Wed Dec 23 00:57:37 1998 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:09 2004 Subject: Perl-XML FAQ v1.0 Message-ID: <36804016.30962D96@pobox.com> Version 1.0 of the Perl-XML FAQ is available at: http://www.perlxml.com/faq/perl-xml-faq.html This FAQ contains information related to using and manipulating XML with Perl. Please direct all corrections and additions to eisen@pobox.com. Information in this FAQ is primarily based on discussions and information transmitted to the Perl XML email list. To join, send an email to Lyris@ActiveState.com with the message: SUBSCRIBE Perl-XML. This FAQ was generated using a small Perl script and an XML file. The script can be slurped from http://www.perlxml.com/faq/xmlfaq.pl. The XML source is located at http://www.perlxml.com/faq/perl-xml-faq.xml. To generate the Perl XML FAQ, run: perl xmlfaq.pl perl-xml-faq.xml which prints the HTML to the screen. The script requires Perl 5.004 and the XML::Parser module. Fresh copies of Perl can be fetched from http://www.perl.com/CPAN. The XML::Parser module is available on CPAN or at http://www.netheaven.com/~coopercc/xmlparser/intro.html. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Wed Dec 23 02:17:19 1998 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: External DTD & namespaces Message-ID: <3680535E.D3D49B6C@mecomnet.de> David Brownell wrote: > > Andy Malakov wrote: > > > > I want to use namespace prefixes in element declarations of the > > external/internal DTDs. > > ... > > Where I should put "myns" namespace declaration? > > xmlns:myns CDATA #FIXED > "http://www.ptc.com/xml/something/goes/here" > > > > Keep in mind that if you put this in some external parameter > entity (e.g. the unnamed one in > some nonvalidating parsers will give you a hard time. within the terms of the proposed recommendation even a conforming validating parser would be hard pressed to do better. a conforming means is yet to be specified whereby a parser can establish the identity of identifiers in either the external or the internal dtd. > Where namespaces and DTDs really clash is when you might want > to change the prefix ("myns") associated with some URI. which clash is the source of the problem. this is not to say that it is not possible to specify this identity. the problem is just strictly in terms of the pr: it omits the necessary binding form and the rules for scoping within the dtd. as previously noted, one can wait for the "future work on XML schemas" which will be able to take advantage of attribute-based prefix bindings. a second option is to depend on the parser of ones choice to a) expose the name-qualification mechanism (prefix binding and universal name construction), and b) report processing instructions. and implement the binding mechanism onesself. [a side-point re (a) and a previous response on the related thread: "Re: DOM Level 1 and namespaces" i would find an interface of the following form much more useful interface NamespaceScoped extends Node { UniversalName Node.getNodeName(); } interface UniversalName extends *?* { // sorry, i don't know your domains // it's likely a concrete class, rather than // just an interface, but i make no claims about // where it fits among your DOM classes String getLocalName (); String getNamespace (); } ] if these prerequisites are satisfied, then both unambiguous name qualification and, as a consequence, validation are possible in the presence of otherwise ambiguous local-name-parts and or prefixes. to wit: ----------------------------- ? (in-package "XML-PARSER") # ;; read a document, here with an internal subset only, but that's not significant ;; note the ambiguous local parts and prefixes ? (defParameter *test-document* (read-xml-stream (make-string-input-stream " ]> "))) *TEST-DOCUMENT* ;; in spite of the "ambiguity" validation is possibly. ? (document.valid? *test-document*) T ;; now, just to demonstrate the "identity" of the names, we "break" the document. ? (defParameter *test-element* (document.element *test-document*)) *TEST-ELEMENT* ? (first (element.content *test-element*)) # ? (element.content (first (element.content *test-element*))) (# #) ? (second (element.content *test-element*)) # ? (element.content (second (element.content *test-element*))) (# #) ? (rotatef (first (element.content (first (element.content *test-element*)))) (first (element.content (second (element.content *test-element*))))) NIL ;; the root element now looks like this. note the additional (internal) prefix bindings ;; which appear as a consequence of the indefinite extent of the respective URI ? (pprint *test-element*) # ? (reset-element.valid? *test-element*) NIL ;; which resulting element is, of course, no longer valid: ;; it fails to conform to the model at the point where a ns.2:a element was found where ;; a ns.1:a element was expected... ? (document.valid? *test-document*) NIL (# #) # ? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM Wed Dec 23 02:43:49 1998 From: Jon.Bosak at eng.Sun.COM (Jon Bosak) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: New deadline for XTech '99 presentations Message-ID: <199812230239.SAA03393@boethius.eng.sun.com> The deadline schedule for XTech '99 presentations has been changed from a "soft" deadline of Monday, December 14, 1998, to a "hard" deadline of Friday, January 8, 1999. The change reflects a growth in the size and importance of the conference that requires increased lead time in the planning and preparation of printed schedules. Where formerly we were asking for early proposals but allowing late submissions to within a few weeks of the conference, we are now setting one deadline for all submissions well in advance of the conference. We will make a serious effort to find a space for late-breaking news of really serious import, but if you want a spot on stage, you'd better get your proposal in now. THE CONFERENCE XTech '99 is the third annual West Coast spring GCA conference for XML and related standards. Last spring's conference, held in Seattle, sold out at more than 700 attendees. This year's event, to be held March 7-11 in the San Jose Convention Center, promises even more essential news and information for the XML technologist plus a parallel event, XIO '99, for the live demonstration of cross-product interoperability among exhibitors of XML products. The primary sponsors of XTech '99 are the Graphic Communications Association, Sun Microsystems, and OASIS. See http://www.gca.org for details. PROPOSAL FORMAT The single most important criterion for acceptance of papers at XTech'99 will be the presentation of new technology. The goal of XTech'99 is to showcase the latest technical developments. Put simply, to have the best chance of getting on stage, you should be prepared to demonstrate some XML-related technology that will be news to the audience. As with previous events in this series, formal papers need not be submitted in advance. Instead, proposals should be submitted in clear text to xtech99@gca.org in the following form: Author's name and job title Organization Postal address Email address Telephone Fax Abstract (500 words or more) Two-sentence description for conference brochure Target audience Biographical information New technology that will be demonstrated All presentations are 45 minutes in length and must be accompanied at the time of the conference by an electronic version suitable for posting on the conference web site. Proposals for half-day and full-day tutorials are also welcome and should be sent to xtech99@gca.org using the format above. Categories for presentations and tutorials include network messaging, publishing systems, programming, tools, and products. Presentations must be related to XML, XLink, XSL, RDF, DOM, and related standards, but are not limited to web applications of those standards. While there will be a track for case studies and other management topics, the primary XTech audience remains the XML developer and expert user, and therefore a strong priority will, as always, be given to running implementations and the very latest developments in tools and techniques. CONFERENCE CO-CHAIRS Jon Bosak, Chair, W3C XML Coordination Group and XML Plenary Tim Bray, Co-chair, W3C XML Syntax Working Group; Co-author, XML 1.0 Specification xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Dec 23 14:34:42 1998 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Full Disclosure II: What XML Processors Should And May Do References: <367EAB1C.641383B3@locke.ccil.org> <367FF33F.C84C5C97@eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <3680FF62.42677C83@locke.ccil.org> A private correspondent pointed out to me that the line > warn about a bad version number in the XML declaration (2.8) is both wrong and vague: it should read: > signal an error about an unknown version number in the XML declaration -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From skshirsa at nortelnetworks.com Wed Dec 23 14:54:58 1998 From: skshirsa at nortelnetworks.com (Shekhar Kshirsager) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Storing XML/Streaming HTML Message-ID: <368102B2.4F98FEA9@nortelnetworks.com> Hi Frank, Your answer solves the problem for a limited domain of IE users on Windows users ? but what about Netscape or any other browsers on any other platform ? I think these kind of solutions when suggested, author should clearly indicate that they are one platform specific solutions. Otherwise it creates lot of confusion, specially on mailing lists. Thanks, Shekhar Kshirsagar Nortel Networks. > Michael, > you can do what you want to do very simply by using ASP and the new MS > msxml.dll. (sent with the latest IE5Beta)together with the DOM. > just use 'getElementsByTagName' wrap the content in a suitable HTML > wrapper,and send these to the client as an HTML stream. > Frank > Frank Boumphrey > XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm > Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com > CoAuthor: Professional XML applications from Wrox Press, www.wrox.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981223/12fab20f/attachment.htm From sanjiva at watson.ibm.com Wed Dec 23 15:32:57 1998 From: sanjiva at watson.ibm.com (Sanjiva Weerawarana) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: xml diff? Message-ID: <05c801be2e89$78703790$fa8ae220@lankabook.watson.ibm.com> Mark D. Anderson writes: >Suppose I want the "diff" between two xml files. > >I can imagine a few approaches: > >- very-cheasy: >just use "diff" > >- almost-as-cheasy: >first do s/\>/\>\nUNIQUE/g to put the tags on separate lines, >then use "diff", then restore by s/\nUNIQUE//g > >- graph-theoretic: >surely there must be some CS work on algorithms for finding >the least cost path between two trees, expressed as a sequence >of operations? the simplest is with just the operations of >add/delete of subtrees, but move and copy are interesting too. Available from IBM alphaWorks (http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/xmltreediff) is a tool that does exactly this. It computes the edit distance between two DOM trees and produces a report which indicates which nodes have been changed, which have been added and which have been deleted. This report is given in XML. A "patch" tool comes with it to take this report and patch one tree to get to the other tree. A graphical UI allows u to apply the changes a step at a time. Check it out .. its pretty cool! (It was written by Paco Curbera, who works down the hall from me; so, yes, I am biased about it.) Sanjiva. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sanjiva Weerawarana, Ph.D. email: sanjiva@watson.ibm.com Research Staff Member tel: +1 914 784 7288 t/l 863 IBM TJ Watson Research Center fax: +1 914 784 6324 Hawthorne, NY 10598, USA. url: http://lanka.watson.ibm.com/~sanjiva ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com Thu Dec 24 07:29:56 1998 From: selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com (Selvaleela) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: What to do with DTD?... Message-ID: <001b01be2f0e$cdc15640$0901a8c0@Database1.com> Hello XML-Gurus, 1. Iam new to Xml.I need to know more about DTD. So, will u tell me how XML-DTD is going to be used on the server side ?how Does it interact with Data? 2. I was told that xml can be used with heterogeneous databases!...How? Pl.give me some pointers. 3.how the browser understands the DTD? ...... Oh ..I have lot and lots of doubts.Only u people can help me to clear my doubts..Please help us! mail to: selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981224/4f6db9ea/attachment.htm From aparna_b at hotmail.com Thu Dec 24 08:27:44 1998 From: aparna_b at hotmail.com (Aparna Balasubramaniam) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: What to do with DTD?... Message-ID: <19981224082630.14447.qmail@hotmail.com> I have browsed and noticed that most of the information available is on how to create the DTDs and well-formed documents. 1.But what do we do next to view these xml files with relevant data in a browser? 2. How do we access data from databases into XML ? 3. How do I interface XML output with other applications ? Aparna >From: "Selvaleela" >To: >Subject: What to do with DTD?... >Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:56:46 +0530 >Reply-To: "Selvaleela" > >Hello XML-Gurus, > > > 1. Iam new to Xml.I need to know more about DTD. So, will = >u tell me how XML-DTD is going to be used on the server side ?how Does = >it interact with Data? >2. I was told that xml can be used with heterogeneous databases!...How? = >Pl.give me some pointers. >3.how the browser understands the DTD? >...... > >Oh ..I have lot and lots of doubts.Only u people can help me to clear my = >doubts..Please help us! > > >mail to: selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Thu Dec 24 13:06:30 1998 From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Greetings over UK Holiday period In-Reply-To: <19981224082630.14447.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981224140641.2b3f97cc@pop3.demon.co.uk> At this part of the year the UK has a holiday period. It's traditionally the time to: - send greetings, so here are ours. - run central University services at a minimalist level. If there are technical problems it is unlikely that much can be done by Henry (or me). Involvement with XML has made me even more aware of the world's multiplicity of cultures and religions and hope that these will continue to flourish. Like any new technology XML has the capacity to be used to change the world in ways that may be beneficial or harmful, inclusive or exclusive. Let's hope that we can be perceptive and sensitive. I haven't contributed much to XML-DEV recently because: - the contributions are - as always - of high quality - I don't contribute when others can say better what I intended - I am getting much more involved with the practice of XML, both in the VHG and CML and this takes time. Henry and I are developing CML software in an OpenSource approach and we'll let you know shortly where we've got to. It will hopefully be of interest to non-chemists as well as chemists. But we shall need XML-DEV help :-) - especially in the area of XObjects and I expect this discussion to be re-opened... Also I am extremely pleased to see the groundswell of high-quality tools and demonstrations emerging. This was exemplified by a RL meeting in London early this month run by the W3C - particularly the W3C-LA (a European project, in which the VHG takes part). The talks were of very high quality and covered the whole spectrum of XML and XML-based component technologies. I really felt at the end of the day that XML had arrived at a state where I could stand in the market-place and announce that part of the future had arrived. P. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RalfW at www.basicworld.com Thu Dec 24 13:27:28 1998 From: RalfW at www.basicworld.com (Ralf Westphal / BasicPro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: What to do with DTD?... In-Reply-To: <19981224082630.14447.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <000701be2f41$06d03280$0300a8c0@alien> For transforming data stored in databases you could use something like the Xml Ole db Stylesheet Language (XOSL, see www.riposte.com/xosl). It?s a XML language specifically designed to make converting relational data to XML as easy as possible. Ralf -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Aparna Balasubramaniam Sent: Donnerstag, 24. Dezember 1998 09:27 To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com Subject: Re: What to do with DTD?... I have browsed and noticed that most of the information available is on how to create the DTDs and well-formed documents. 1.But what do we do next to view these xml files with relevant data in a browser? 2. How do we access data from databases into XML ? 3. How do I interface XML output with other applications ? Aparna >From: "Selvaleela" >To: >Subject: What to do with DTD?... >Date: Thu, 24 Dec 1998 12:56:46 +0530 >Reply-To: "Selvaleela" > >Hello XML-Gurus, > > > 1. Iam new to Xml.I need to know more about DTD. So, will = >u tell me how XML-DTD is going to be used on the server side ?how Does = >it interact with Data? >2. I was told that xml can be used with heterogeneous databases!...How? = >Pl.give me some pointers. >3.how the browser understands the DTD? >...... > >Oh ..I have lot and lots of doubts.Only u people can help me to clear my = >doubts..Please help us! > > >mail to: selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bckman at ix.netcom.com Thu Dec 24 16:37:53 1998 From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: What to do with DTD?... Message-ID: <004601be2f59$bab56f00$2bacdccf@ix.netcom.com> So, will u tell me how XML-DTD is going to be used on the server side ?how Does it interact with Data? If you are using ASP this is relatively easy to accomplish. You will however need the new IE5 beta on your system or at least the relevant dll. Simply load the file as an object, and then use the DOM to traverse the file and create an HTML stream for old browsers. for gecko and IE5 you can of course just send the XML file. Code follows after signature Frank Frank Boumphrey XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com CoAuthor: XML applications from Wrox Press, www.wrox.com Asp Code: <% dim parser,myDoc,rootEl 'create xml object set parser=Server.CreateObject("microsoft.XMLDOM") 'load file, note file has tohas to be the physical not virtual path parser.load("c:\webshare\wwwroot\xml\simple.xml") 'check to make sure the document is loaded if parser.parseError.reason="" and parser.readyState=4 then else response.write parser.parseError.reason end if 'test all is working by sending something to the client. set rootEl=parser.documentElement response.write "
"+rootEl.firstChild.nodeName %> ----- Original Message ----- From: Selvaleela To: Sent: Thursday, December 24, 1998 2:26 AM Subject: What to do with DTD?... Hello XML-Gurus, 1. Iam new to Xml.I need to know more about DTD. So, will u tell me how XML-DTD is going to be used on the server side ?how Does it interact with Data? 2. I was told that xml can be used with heterogeneous databases!...How? Pl.give me some pointers. 3.how the browser understands the DTD? ...... Oh ..I have lot and lots of doubts.Only u people can help me to clear my doubts..Please help us! mail to: selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s.polini at mclink.it Sun Dec 27 13:49:24 1998 From: s.polini at mclink.it (Sergio Polini) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Querying DTD information Message-ID: <36863943.F13EF742@mclink.it> I have looked at IBM's XML for Java. I like its capability to query DTD information (i.e, to load a DTD without loading a document, and to answer questions such as "What attributes can be set in element 'FOO'?", "What value can an attribute have?", "What elment can be inserted into an element 'FOO' as a child?"). I'd like to know if there are any C/C++ tools that can do the same. Thanks. Sergio Polini PS: Happy 1999! xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com Mon Dec 28 07:12:55 1998 From: selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com (Selvaleela) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Diff between DOM and DTD Message-ID: <002b01be3231$120730c0$0901a8c0@Database1.com> Hello Friends, Will u please explain Me the difference Between DTD and DOM.What are the roles played by them on the server side and database? mailto : selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981228/f74a9e24/attachment.htm From selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com Mon Dec 28 07:17:53 1998 From: selvaleela at enterprise-telesys.com (Selvaleela) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: xml dtd and database Message-ID: <003701be3231$c2bff960$0901a8c0@Database1.com> Hi friends, Will u tell me how xml and Database are glued to the display?How can one browser understand the query statements?how data is retrieved from the database(using Java?) if u have any ideas over these,Please give me a good view for me... Thanks in advance, selvaleela mailto :selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com Thanks in advance, -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19981228/1d49fed6/attachment.htm From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Mon Dec 28 12:37:57 1998 From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: LISTRIVIA [was Re: Diff between DOM and DTD] In-Reply-To: <002b01be3231$120730c0$0901a8c0@Database1.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19981228125615.397f9c88@pop3.demon.co.uk> At 12:39 28/12/98 +0530, Selvaleela wrote: >Hello Friends, > > Will u please explain Me the difference Between DTD and DOM.What are the roles played by them on the server side and database? XML-DEV is not really the right place to ask beginners' questions. It is better to read the FAQ (http://www.ucc.ie/xml) or Robin Cover's page (http://www.oasis-open.org/cover). > >mailto : selvaleela@enterprise-telesys.com > >Attachment Converted: "c:\eudora\attach\Diffbetw.htm" PLEASE, everyone, do NOT *attach* anything to postings to XML-DEV. It confuses the recipients, the hypermailer, etc. It also now costs individuals and (UK) universities real money for WWW traffic. [I assume that this was generated automatically by some mailing software - PLEASE SWITCH THIS OPTION OFF]. > Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic net connection VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon Dec 28 17:34:59 1998 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:10 2004 Subject: Chinese XML Now! website update Message-ID: <002f01be3288$9c9eb3a0$2df96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Thanks for the people who have responded. Here's our news. 1) Site is now "Voyager" (i.e. HTML-in-XML), including OmniMark LE scripts to tame the current version of Dave Ragget's excellent "tidy" program. 2) More Chinese test files added (more than 400 cases). 3) Test files available in big tar file. 4) English-language FAQ updated and corrected. It now has some Chinese characters too! 5) Chinese-language FAQ and sites are expected to go online later this week. Address is http://www.ascc.net/xml/ Rick Jelliffe Academia Sinica Computing Center Taipei xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mdmahajan at yahoo.com Wed Dec 30 07:51:38 1998 From: mdmahajan at yahoo.com (Mohan Mahajan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:11 2004 Subject: problem with Microsoft parser Message-ID: <19981230075158.9054.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> I am new to this list. I am trying to use Microsoft XML parser(java) 1.8 with JDK1.2 but not able to parse the document. Can some one please guide me, whether the MS 1.8 is stable. Or is there any better XML parser. Thanks in advance Mohan _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From davec at progress.com Wed Dec 30 13:37:26 1998 From: davec at progress.com (David Cleary) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:11 2004 Subject: problem with Microsoft parser In-Reply-To: <19981230075158.9054.rocketmail@send106.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <000001be33f9$7d182440$586712ac@cleary400.nashua.progress.com> > I am new to this list. I am trying to use Microsoft XML parser(java) > 1.8 with JDK1.2 but not able to parse the document. Can some one > please guide me, whether the MS 1.8 is stable. Or is there any better > XML parser. You should probably check out the Data Channel Java parser. They have taken over development of Microsoft's XML technology for Java. However, this parser is still in a beta phase. You can get more info at http://www.datachannel.com. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Orr at Design-Intelligence.com Wed Dec 30 17:18:21 1998 From: Michael.Orr at Design-Intelligence.com (Michael.Orr@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:11 2004 Subject: Greetings over UK Holiday period Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Peter Murray-Rust [mailto:peter@ursus.demon.co.uk] (snip) > Also I am extremely pleased to see the groundswell of high-quality tools > and demonstrations emerging. This was exemplified by a RL meeting in London > early this month run by the W3C - particularly the W3C-LA (a European > project, in which the VHG takes part). The talks were of very high quality > and covered the whole spectrum of XML and XML-based component technologies. What do you include among "XML-based component technologies"? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dan at holle.demon.co.uk Wed Dec 30 18:04:40 1998 From: dan at holle.demon.co.uk (Dan Holle) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:11 2004 Subject: problem with Microsoft parser Message-ID: <000801be341d$4a9aafa0$0400a8c0@dan.perrysfield> I've used the Data Channel parser with Java 1.2... worked first time, no probs. -----Original Message----- From: David Cleary To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Date: 30 December 1998 16:01 Subject: RE: problem with Microsoft parser > >> I am new to this list. I am trying to use Microsoft XML parser(java) >> 1.8 with JDK1.2 but not able to parse the document. Can some one >> please guide me, whether the MS 1.8 is stable. Or is there any better >> XML parser. > > >You should probably check out the Data Channel Java parser. They have taken >over development of Microsoft's XML technology for Java. However, this >parser is still in a beta phase. You can get more info at >http://www.datachannel.com. > >Dave > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Thu Dec 31 03:19:21 1998 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:07:11 2004 Subject: New expat test release Message-ID: <368AEA39.4F21C602@jclark.com> A new expat test release is available from ftp://ftp.jclark.com/pub/test/expat.zip This is not a production release. The current production release is still 1.0.1 which is available at http://www.jclark.com/xml/expat.html New features are the following: You can now compile with -DXML_MIN_SIZE to get a smaller (but slower) parser (in particular this avoids multiple copies of the tokenizer). Under Visual C++ 6.0 the xmlparse - Win32 MinSize target builds a minimally-sized xmlparse.dll. Note that unlike with the Release target this doesn't depend on xmltok.dll; it links in the xmltok functionality that it needs. XML_SetCdataSectionHandler allows the application to be informed of the start and end of CDATA sections. (Data within a CDATA section is always passed using the handler set with XML_SetCharacterDataHandler.) If there's a default handler but no CDATA section handler, the default handler will be called with the . The code for pushing files through the parser has been separated out into xmlwf/xmlfile.[ch]. The XMLNS define has become XML_NS. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)