"Presenting XML" by Light discusses how to write HTML so that it is also
valid XML. Basically you have to do things like explicitly close your
paragraphs, i.e.
This is a paragraph. The following close paragraph tag is legal HTML
(and required for it to be legal XML) but no HTML authoring tool would
ever add it.
If that is tolerable, you could insert you special tags within the
document that you replace.
This is a replace this
You wouldn't need to have a HTML DTD (but you could if you wanted).
However, given all that, if you aren't interested in extracting any
meaning from the XML (like the URL in the same), It would seem easier to
take the approach Microsoft did with VB 6 and just use a DIV tag within
your normal HTML stream and have your servlet scan and replace the
"" blocks it recognizes.
This is a
-----Original Message-----
From: Weihong Xie [mailto:wxie@gmswireless.com]
Sent: Thursday, September 03, 1998 4:18 PM
To: Xml-Dev
Subject: parsing XML within HTML files
I posted this before and was returned by mail failure. Sorry if
duplicated.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
--
hi,
I am developing some servlet application and am looking at XML to see if
I
can use it to present dynamic information.
AlL I want to do is in normal HTML files, there will be some customized
XML
tags to mark the places where dynamic values will be inserted, so when
the
servlet serves those pages, it will provide those values but leave the
HTML
text alone. The question is how I can do this, do I need a DTD that
defines
HTML and my customized tags or is there any XML parsers understand HTML?
I
am new to XML, so any advice is welcome.
Thanks.
Weihong.
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 4 02:36:43 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: JUMBO2a2 and xml-cml.org
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980903013822.45f7e46c@pop3.demon.co.uk>
This is to announce the release of the latest snapshot of JUMBO2 (alpha2)
and also the page it's located at: xml-cml.org.
xml-cml.org is the home page of the nascent Chemical Markup Forum,
metamorphosing from the Open Molecular Foundation. Henry Rzepa, Steve Zara
and I are involved in getting this going - hopefully more info later.
JUMBO2 is an element-oriented XML-browser, in Java/Swing. Its source is
freely available with the normal sort of copyright. The architecture tries
to follow the specs and anticipate the possible XML-related APIs. The
tension between time available and achievement is evident; there are many
bits not fully finished, but I felt there was a sufficient shortage of
'browsers' that you will forgive the buglets.
JUMBO2 is offered to the community as a catalyst to spawn the creation of
high-quality client-side tools ('browsers'). Ideally we converge towards a
set of core APIs and all that remains of my code will be the
elephant-specific stuff. I have already started to get some offers of help.
At present JUMBO2:
- uses SAX and a range of parsers
- uses Swing (tree, table, text, and various windows/widgets). Of these
the text is the worst to make work - not just my opinion.
- has a namespace kludge ( to provide per-element
functionality. This allows a variety of client-side processes:
- validation (e.g. for data values)
- transformation of complex objects (e.g. molecules)
- creation of element-specific rendering (forms, etc.)
- vector graphics (embryonic, but so is Java until we get Java2D - I'm
told JDK1.2beta4 is rather buggy)
- other authoring/editing functionality
- has a per-element stylesheet table editable by the reader, and a number
of default styles
- can analyse the elements/attributes/values in the tree and navigate to them
- is not well documented
The latest *.jar is mounted and the *.java should be posted soon. Follow
the WWW site for incremental announcements. I haven't distributed much in
the way of ex maples - there are some simple data files including graphics.
Jon Bosak's Shakespeare works very well. I hope to develop the styletable
approach to support things like rec.xml - you are welcome to play.
**Since this is an alpha release I'd be very grateful for bug-reports, but
not beginners' questions.**
[I had expected that JUMBO would have been overtaken by commercial
client-side browsers by now, but get the sad impression that client-side
XML is not being addressed as excitingly as it could. (The idea of using
XML server-side to generate PDF is underwhelming as a global revolution).
There are so many really exciting things we can do with client-side tools -
I would be very grateful to have more offers of help. JUMBO is critical for
some of the things I need to do and I haven't yet seen much alternative. At
the least I hope we can come up with some useful APIs.]
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From mikeb at amgen.com Fri Sep 4 02:54:39 1998
From: mikeb at amgen.com (Michael Brennan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: Tools to convert Word to XML?
References: <35EC2EA8.E65CF9C1@epiphanysoftware.com>
Message-ID: <35EF3A23.D9B460E5@amgen.com>
Andrew Cogan wrote:
>
> Can anyone recommend good tools that can convert Word files to XML? I
> don't need tools that claim XML compatibility per se; any utility that
> gives me control over what tag to insert at the beginning of a style and
> at the end of a style would probably suffice. The ability to work with
> Word footnotes is a big plus.
Inso Corporation, I believe, has a tool to convert Word documents to
SGML files. I know nothing of the tool, though. I've simply seen it
mentioned on their web site.
----
Michael Brennan
Sr. Systems Analyst
Amgen Inc.
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com Fri Sep 4 06:03:15 1998
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: Please.....
Message-ID: <00bd01bdd7b9$8009f620$31aedccf@ix.netcom.com>
>Can any one help he from where I can get
>introduction of xml and other stuff.
Try my tutorial at the URL below. Follow the XML link. I also list other
tutorials.
regards,
Frank
Frank Boumphrey
XML and style sheet info at Http://www.hypermedic.com/style/index.htm
Author: - Professional Style Sheets for HTML and XML http://www.wrox.com
-----Original Message-----
From: ruchig
To:
Date: Sunday, August 30, 1998 8:05 AM
Subject: Please.....
>
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From dent at highway1.com.au Fri Sep 4 07:42:15 1998
From: dent at highway1.com.au (Andy Dent)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: WP conversion issues
Message-ID:
Possibly not immediately, but within the next few months, our XML output
from the report writer is going to have to do some conversion of embedded
WP formats. (We are currently planning to use the Led cross-platform WP
toolkit).
I've got a fairly good understanding now of how we can make XSL and XML
work from our overall report layout, but I'm unsure of the idioms in
converting the straight WP formatted notes.
BTW something I'd like to see a lot more of are examples of markup decision
making and the reasoning behind them, like the Design Patterns movement in
programming.
Anyway, given a lump of styled text with font changes, bolding etc, there
seem to be several possible ways to map this.
1) the obvious "HTML-style" of defining tags for etc. and applying them
inline, then adding the XSL definitions to match. This has a huge benefit
of giving us HTML conversion in the same hit.
2) some attempt to infer a document model, and defining the stylesheet on
the basis of location (eg: the word "school" within paragraph 1). This
feels very awkward but delivers cleaner text with separate styles.
3) conversion to RTF and encoding as same, on the basis that this will be
parsable by other tools as an embedded format in future.
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From ricko at allette.com.au Fri Sep 4 08:17:28 1998
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: WP conversion issues
References:
Message-ID: <35EF78CD.8BB4A586@allette.com.au>
Andy Dent wrote:
> BTW something I'd like to see a lot more of are examples of markup decision
> making and the reasoning behind them, like the Design Patterns movement in
> programming.
Since you asked, my book "The XML & SGML Cookbook: Recipes for Structured
Information", Charles F. Goldfarb Series on Structured Information Management,
Prentice Hall, 1998, 650 pages + CD-ROM, ISBN 0-13-614-223, is the only attempt
I know of to look at markup from the Design Patterns movement viewpoint. Part 2
of the book is called "Document Patterns". It has patterns for most basic
structures, with discussions of when one is more appropriate than another and
tips and warnings.
I am not aware of any material on the internet, though there may be some general
discussions, e.g. relating to design of particular structures in HTML, i.e.
tables.
Another possible source, targetted at explaining particular DTDs, is Dave
Megginsons' "Structuring XML Documents", which you may also find useful.
Rick Jelliffe
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Sep 4 08:20:19 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: WP conversion issues
Message-ID: <012301bdd7cc$122d49a0$bc6118cb@caleb>
>BTW something I'd like to see a lot more of are examples of markup decision
>making and the reasoning behind them, like the Design Patterns movement in
>programming.
See Rick Jelliffe's SGML/XML Cookbook or David Megginson's Structuring XML
Documents ( http://www.xmlinfo.com/books/ )
>Anyway, given a lump of styled text with font changes, bolding etc, there
>seem to be several possible ways to map this.
>
>1) the obvious "HTML-style" of defining tags for etc. and applying them
>inline, then adding the XSL definitions to match. This has a huge benefit
>of giving us HTML conversion in the same hit.
Just look at Word97's Save as HTML to see why this isn't trivial.
>2) some attempt to infer a document model, and defining the stylesheet on
>the basis of location (eg: the word "school" within paragraph 1). This
>feels very awkward but delivers cleaner text with separate styles.
Hard to do generically.
>3) conversion to RTF and encoding as same, on the basis that this will be
>parsable by other tools as an embedded format in future.
If you are happy to transport a presentational format around.
James
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From mrc at allette.com.au Fri Sep 4 10:15:55 1998
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: Tools to convert Word to XML?
References: <35EC2EA8.E65CF9C1@epiphanysoftware.com> <35EF3A23.D9B460E5@amgen.com>
Message-ID: <35EFA185.BB4554E1@allette.com.au>
Michael Brennan wrote:
> Andrew Cogan wrote:
>
> > Can anyone recommend good tools that can convert Word files to XML? I
> > don't need tools that claim XML compatibility per se; any utility that
> > gives me control over what tag to insert at the beginning of a style and
> > at the end of a style would probably suffice. The ability to work with
> > Word footnotes is a big plus.
>
> Inso Corporation, I believe, has a tool to convert Word documents to
> SGML files. I know nothing of the tool, though. I've simply seen it
> mentioned on their web site.
I think that's DynaTag - used to get documents into DynaText quickly. I believe
it works OK, though I've never used it. My pick is Rick Geimer's beerware - it
can be found at http://www.sesha.com/omlette/#rtf2xml. I've tested it in the past
and found it to be very good. It leaves you with valid XML ripe for the
inevitable next stage of manipulation - trying to infer the nesting. It's a great
way out of RTF and into something valid. Rick kindly released this under the GNU
General Public License and only requests payment if you roll it into a paying
project, I think.
--
Regards,
Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au
_______________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia) email: info@allette.com.au
Level 10, 91 York Street www: http://www.allette.com.au
Sydney 2000 NSW Australia phone: +61 2 9262 4777
fax: +61 2 9262 4774
_______________________________________________________________
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From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Sep 4 12:37:52 1998
From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: XML and servlets
Message-ID: <005c01bdd7f0$7cc43c00$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
>[I would like] to parse these files on the server side
using a servlet.
>Has anybody have tried the same kind of experiment or could
point me to
>some valuable documentation or code to help me solve this
problem.
I have a couple of servlet demo applications in the SAXON
package available from
http://home.iclweb.com/icl2/mhkay/saxon.html They produce an
HTML rendition of the Shakespeare XML documents, which must
first be split into separate scenes using another sample
app.
I have run these servlets under Microsoft IIS using the Live
Software JRUN servlet environment. I don't recall whether or
not MSXML was one of the parsers I tested in this
environment but any SAX parser should work.
(MSXSL is a different matter, it doesn't seem to be
supported server-side and is generally rather fussy about
its environment).
Mike Kay
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From M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk Fri Sep 4 12:56:05 1998
From: M.H.Kay at eng.icl.co.uk (Michael Kay)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:24 2004
Subject: XML tools and big documents
Message-ID: <009701bdd7f3$24de11c0$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
>To this end, I have been (in such spare time as i have)
tinkering
>about with Mr. Clark's XP API (com.jclark.xml.tok, mostly)
to write an
>application that will allow me to attach the logical
element structure
>to offsets in the storage entity, so that I can consider
the logical
>structure's relationship to points in the text without
reparsing the
>document
I think we're all looking for a solution to the problem that
a >1Mb document is too big, we don't want to parse it every
time we want to look at it, but storing the fine-grained DOM
representation has the opposite problem, it takes too much
space and takes too long to reassemble a reasonable unit
like a page. Indexing the original serial XML (say at
"chapter" level) is one solution; it's essentially
equivalent to my approach, which has been to split the
original XML (say at "chapter" level) and store the
"chapters" as separate linked XML documents.
What I mean by "chapter" is typically 1-10Kb, or
alternatively, a chunk of text such that the user doesn't
mind pressing "Next" when he's got to the end of it.
Mike Kay
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From elm at arbortext.com Fri Sep 4 16:35:22 1998
From: elm at arbortext.com (Eve L. Maler)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: WP conversion issues
In-Reply-To: <35EF78CD.8BB4A586@allette.com.au>
References:
Message-ID: <199809041435.KAA21285@doctools.com>
I'm not familiar with the Design Patterns movement, but my book Developing
SGML DTDs: From Text to Model to Markup (Prentice-Hall PTR, ISBN
0-13-309881-8) has a whole chapter on markup design considerations. Most
of the information applies directly to XML, although the book is obviously
written to full SGML. It also presents an entire methodology for markup
design, again based on full SGML but equally applicable to XML. In the
course of demonstrating the methodology, it covers a lot of typical design
decisions and their rationales.
Eve
At 04:21 PM 9/4/98 +1100, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>
>
>Andy Dent wrote:
>
>> BTW something I'd like to see a lot more of are examples of markup
decision
>> making and the reasoning behind them, like the Design Patterns movement in
>> programming.
>
>Since you asked, my book "The XML & SGML Cookbook: Recipes for Structured
>Information", Charles F. Goldfarb Series on Structured Information
Management,
>Prentice Hall, 1998, 650 pages + CD-ROM, ISBN 0-13-614-223, is the only
attempt
>I know of to look at markup from the Design Patterns movement viewpoint.
Part 2
>of the book is called "Document Patterns". It has patterns for most basic
>structures, with discussions of when one is more appropriate than another and
>tips and warnings.
>
>I am not aware of any material on the internet, though there may be some
general
>discussions, e.g. relating to design of particular structures in HTML, i.e.
>tables.
>
> Another possible source, targetted at explaining particular DTDs, is Dave
>Megginsons' "Structuring XML Documents", which you may also find useful.
>
>Rick Jelliffe
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From MSCALIA at kti.com Fri Sep 4 17:02:35 1998
From: MSCALIA at kti.com (Michael Scalia)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Tools to convert Word to XML?
Message-ID:
>From: Andrew Cogan
>Date: Tue, 01 Sep 1998 10:28:09 -0700
>Subject: Tools to convert Word to XML?
>
>Can anyone recommend good tools that can convert Word files to XML? I
>don't need tools that claim XML compatibility per se; any utility that
>gives me control over what tag to insert at the beginning of a style and
>at the end of a style would probably suffice. The ability to work with
>Word footnotes is a big plus.
>- --
> Andrew Cogan, Epiphany Software
Andrew,
Check out "Ace" from RMIT in Melbourne, Australia. Freely downloadable at http://ace.mds.rmit.edu.au/adl. Ace can convert RTF and does a lot more.
To convert RTF to SGML in Ace:
String bufRTF := readFile(rtfFile);
String bufSGML := bufRTF.rtfToSgml();
Then you can stream through the SGML, to modify and insert tags as you wish. Can also create an in-memory parse tree. You can choose to parse as SGML or XML.
Michael
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From tyler at infinet.com Fri Sep 4 18:02:59 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Notation Declarations?
Message-ID: <35F00F7D.2F6CF07A@infinet.com>
Unlike the specification for Element Declarations, Entity Declarations,
and Attribute List declarations, there is nothing that I can find on
Notations which says what you are supposed to do if a Notation with a
particular Name is declared more than once.
Basically I am just wondering if you should:
(1) Replace the old NotationDecl with the new NotationDecl
(2) Ignore all new NotationDecls after the first encountered
NotationDecl has been declared
(3) Throw an error
One other thing I have been wondering about is how best to present
validity errors to the application. Many validity errors cannot be
found in a stream-based parser until the end of the document has been
reached, so in a lot of ways it would make sense to batch all validation
errors in a list and present them to the application at the end of the
document.
>From what I have already been told, the spec says nothing about how a
validating processor is supposed to present validity errors, just that
they are to be presented as recoverable errors in some fashion.
Thanx in advance,
Tyler
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri Sep 4 23:06:20 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: parsing XML within HTML files
In-Reply-To: <002701bdd764$f58dbc10$89fcd8d0@lastexit.gmswireless.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980904230525.007bfd00@ifi.uio.no>
* Weihong Xie
>
>AlL I want to do is in normal HTML files, there will be some customized XML
>tags to mark the places where dynamic values will be inserted, so when the
>servlet serves those pages, it will provide those values but leave the HTML
>text alone.
In that case you could probably use cpp or just write your own tool that
does the substitution. Mark the places with something like $place$ and that's
it.
It sounds like overkill to use XML for this.
>The question is how I can do this, do I need a DTD that defines
>HTML and my customized tags or is there any XML parsers understand HTML?
HEX does.
--Lars M.
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From bunner at massquantities.com Fri Sep 4 23:39:00 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: A utility to make msxsl more useful
Message-ID: <199809042138.OAA25850@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
I wrote a small Perl script that can be used to preprocess XML files
before sending them to msxsl. Why might you want to do this? So you can
expand ENTITY references and do something like
It's very basic and very small so I just attached it to this message for
anyone who's interested.
Here's the syntax for using it from the DOS command prompt...
C:\\Perl.exe expand.pl myfile.xml > temp.xml
msxsl -i myfile.xml -s myfile.xsl -o output.html
myfile.xml can define entities in its internal and external DTD by saying
or You
can use single or double quotes.
I also made it so you can include a file by saying
Basically, I'm trying to find ways to make msxsl usable now. I was sort
of hoping some Java programmers would leap to the rescue and turn msxml (or
some equivalent parser) into type of preprocessor for msxsl but, failing
that, I worked up a quick and dirty way to do what I want. Hopefully some
one else will find it useful.
-------------- next part --------------
main();
sub main {
$xml = (&readFile($ARGV[0]));
%externalEntities = &parseExternalDTD($xml);
%internalEntities = &parseInternalDTD($xml);
my($moreToGo) = (1);
while ($moreToGo) {
$moreToGo = &expandEntities(%externalEntities, %internalEntities) | &expandLinks(%externalEntities, %internalEntities);
}
print $xml;
}
# $_[0] = file name or path
# returns full text of file
sub readFile {
my($contents);
my(@fileInfo) = stat($_[0]);
open(F, $_[0]) or die "Couldn't open $_[0]\n";
read F, $contents, $fileInfo[7];
close(F);
return $contents;
}
# $_[0] full text of an XML document
# returns hash of external entities and what they reference
sub parseExternalDTD {
# Looking for...
unless ($_[0] =~ / declarations
# returns entity has of names and values
sub extractEntities {
my($text) = $_[0];
my(%entities);
my($entityName, $entityPath);
# Looking for or
while ($text =~ ///s) {
$entities{$1} = $2;
} elsif ($text =~ s///s) {
($entityName, $entityPath) = ($1, $2);
$entities{$entityName} = &readFile($entityPath);
}
}
return %entities;
}
# @_ is a hash of entities and what they expand to
# works on global variable $xml searching for &foo; references
# returns true if it was able to make any replacements
sub expandEntities {
my(%entities) = @_;
my($gotOne) = (0);
while ($xml =~ s/\&(\w+);/$entities{$1}/) {
$gotOne = 1;
}
return $gotOne;
}
sub expandLinks {
my($gotOne) = (0);
# We're looking for...
# This is not a complete implementation! A real XML processor would
# look for any type of link that's defined to have SHOW="EMBED" and ACTUATE="AUTO"
# ...but that's too much work for what I'm after
while ($xml =~ s//&readFile($1)/se) {
$gotOne = 1;
}
return $gotOne;
}
-------------- next part --------------
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat Sep 5 09:21:28 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: A utility to make msxsl more useful
In-Reply-To: <199809042138.OAA25850@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980905092036.007a62c0@ifi.uio.no>
* Andrew Bunner
>
>Basically, I'm trying to find ways to make msxsl usable now. I was sort
>of hoping some Java programmers would leap to the rescue and turn msxml (or
>some equivalent parser) into type of preprocessor for msxsl but, failing
>that, I worked up a quick and dirty way to do what I want. Hopefully some
>one else will find it useful.
Andrew, there are a couple of things you should know:
- MSXSL implements the old XSL proposal, which was obsoleted by the new
XSL Working Draft that was released on 19980818. This means that developing
new tools for MSXSL is rather pointless.
- There are several other XSL tools, some of which implement the 19980818
Working Draft:
--Lars M.
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat Sep 5 13:13:15 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Validating IDREFS...
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980905131219.007be900@ifi.uio.no>
* Michael Kay
|
| * A dangling IDREF is an error; a dangling XPointer is not
They are both errors, but at different levels, which IMHO makes
perfect sense. To check your XPointers you have to run an XPointer
checker, since XPointer is not part of XML (and IMHO shouldn't be).
| That is what I mean by saying the two facilities are
| incompatible. Or to put it another way, once I have made a design
| choice to use IDREF or to use XPointer for the links in my
| documents, I am stuck with my choice.
Definitely not. As Lisa Rein points out it's easy to convert from
IDREFs to XPointers. Going the other way may not be possible, since
XPointer can do much that IDREFs cannot, in which case I guess that's
not what you want anyway. :)
| This is one of several situations in the XML family of standards
| where there is more than one way of doing the same thing, and no
| obvious way to choose between them.
I've never felt that this was a difficult choice. For links inside the
document where you can count on IDs to be present, use IDREF, for
external links, links to arbitrary elements (or with even finer
granularity if required) use XPointer.
--
"These are, as I began, cumbersome ways / to kill a man. Simpler, direct,
and much more neat / is to see that he is living somewhere in the middle /
of the twentieth century, and leave him there." -- Edwin Brock
http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/ http://birk105.studby.uio.no/
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat Sep 5 13:15:45 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: XML-QL
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19980905131429.007a5130@ifi.uio.no>
To:
Subject:
References: <00e501bdd591$faef4180$1e09e391@mhklaptop.bra01.icl.co.uk>
<35EBF5E5.1BB74120@technologist.com>
Gcc: nnml+archive:Sendt
--text follows this line--
* Paul Prescod
|
| It would also be useful to compare XPointer, which is a sort of
| query that returns a single node.
XPointer can return sets of nodes, parts of nodes and a span of nodes.
Whether they can operate on a set of nodes is not stated in the
current WD (it's on the list of things to be clarified), but I would
assume not.
But it's still useful to compare XPointer. The CSS2 selectors are also
a sort of query language, and seem rather similar to XSL patterns. (I
have just briefly skimmed the XSL WD so far.)
In fact I think it would make very good sense for XSL patterns to
extend the CSS2 selectors instead of starting again from scratch with
XML query language number 3.
--
"These are, as I began, cumbersome ways / to kill a man. Simpler, direct,
and much more neat / is to see that he is living somewhere in the middle /
of the twentieth century, and leave him there." -- Edwin Brock
http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/ http://birk105.studby.uio.no/
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From ruchig at iitk.ac.in Sat Sep 5 17:17:56 1998
From: ruchig at iitk.ac.in (Prashant)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: This is Java question ..
Message-ID:
Hello Everybody:
Can anybody tell me what is the Algorithm used by the Java VM
Garbage-Collector ?. I am sorry to post this question in xml
discussion group.
Thanks
Rg
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From donpark at quake.net Sat Sep 5 23:50:30 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: This is Java question ..
Message-ID: <002401bdd915$d68ff0a0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
>Can anybody tell me what is the Algorithm used by the Java VM
>Garbage-Collector ?. I am sorry to post this question in xml
>discussion group.
Every Wednesday morning although they won't guarantee pickup.
I would like to suggest that you search the JavaSoft site at
http://www.javasoft.com or subscribe to one of the Java related mailing
lists at http://www.xcf.berkeley.edu/lists.html
Don Park
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From donpark at quake.net Sun Sep 6 04:46:51 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2 Released
Message-ID: <003501bdd93f$3a2ac350$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Docuverse DOM SDK Preview Release 2 is now available at:
http://www.docuverse.com/domsdk/index.html
PR2 includes W3C DOM HTML API support and minor bug fixes.
Also, as of PR2, DOM SDK can be used for commercial purpose for free. This
change in licensing policy was made in response to numerous pleas,
complaints, and comparisons to IBM's free commercial license for XML4J.
Although comparing Docuverse to IBM is like comparing Tweety Bird to Dolly
Parton IMHO, we thought the change was necessary to encourage development of
DOM-based XML software. In another word, we made a mistake when we
restricted commercial use before. Our appologies.
Best,
Don Park
Docuverse
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From bmhughes at ozemail.com.au Sun Sep 6 09:50:42 1998
From: bmhughes at ozemail.com.au (Baden Hughes)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Word to XML : how to's are on their way
Message-ID: <000001bdd96a$bed9fdc0$e83670c2@bmhmobile>
Since I replied about how to take Word documents and export them with
markup, there have been a lot of requests for how to do this
(specifics). I'm going to put up a page or two about it in a couple of
weeks, after I've managed to justify my budget for next year in the
next week in the UK.
Baden
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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Sun Sep 6 22:06:30 1998
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: [ANN] Silfide XML Parser in Java - 0.8
Message-ID: <199809061952.VAA06633@chimay.loria.fr>
The Silfide Working Group is happy to announce the availability of the Silfide
XML Parser (SXP, v0.8 - Sun Sep 6 1998 ), a release of our validating XML
Parser writing in Java.
The SXP entirely implements the XML 1.0 recommendation and most of its
satellite recommendations:
- XML Namespaces (WD 18-05-1998, the old draft)
- Document Object Model Level 1 (DOM Core and XML, PR 08-08-1998)
- XPointer (WD 03-03-1998)
- XLink (WD 03-03-1998)
SXP provides also a driver for the SAX interface (fr.loria.xml.sax.SAXDriver).
Both of the XML and XPointer parsers are developed with the tool JavaCC.
Changes from last revision:
- Implements the DOM Proposed Recommendation 18 August, 1998
- DTD parsing has been improved (with PE inclusion)
- A new NodeFilter interface (to use with, for example, an XMLTreeIterator)
- some bugs has been fixed (thanks for your bug reports)
- some new bugs may have been introduced (!)
Java source files, java classes, some samples and documentation are freely
available here:
http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/EN/sxp/
SILFIDE is a project of CNRS and AUPELF-UREF. Server SILFIDE, as an
interactive server, wants to offer to the whole of the French-speaking
university community working starting from the language (linguists, teachers,
data processing specialists...) a tool user-friendly and reasoned for the
handling of electronic resources.
A more detailed description of the Silfide project is available here:
http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/
We are waiting for all of your comments, questions and suggestions.
Pat.
silfide-dev: the Silfide development mailing list, maintained/organized by
Patrice Bonhomme (bonhomme@loria.fr)
To subscribe, send email to listserv@loria.fr with the single message line
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--
==============================================================
bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228
http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52
--------------------------------------------------------------
* Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide
* Projet Aquarelle : http://aqua.inria.fr
==============================================================
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From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Mon Sep 7 02:49:06 1998
From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Tools to convert Word to XML?
In-Reply-To: <35EC2EA8.E65CF9C1@epiphanysoftware.com>
Message-ID: <199809070048.KAA12555@fep2.mail.ozemail.net>
At 03:28 2/09/1998 , you wrote:
| Can anyone recommend good tools that can convert Word files to XML? I
| don't need tools that claim XML compatibility per se; any utility that
| gives me control over what tag to insert at the beginning of a style and
| at the end of a style would probably suffice. The ability to work with
| Word footnotes is a big plus.
Andrew,
This may be a good candidate for a custom-written conversion. Converting
RTF to SGML/XML is not too hard, particularly using a tool such as
Omnimark.
Cheers,
James
-------------------------
James Robertson
Step Two Designs Pty Ltd
SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy
http://www.steptwo.com.au/
jamesr@steptwo.com.au
"Beyond the Idea"
ACN 081 019 623
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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk Mon Sep 7 09:54:39 1998
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:25 2004
Subject: Fwd: Re: Announcing PrismEd (a configurable metadata editor)
Message-ID:
Apologies for cross posting, but this seems a useful tool!
>To: Andrew Waugh
>cc: meta2@mrrl.lboro.ac.uk, Andrew.Waugh@cmis.CSIRO.AU
>Subject: Re: Announcing PrismEd (a configurable metadata editor)
>Date: Mon, 07 Sep 1998 10:10:27 +1000
>From: Andrew Waugh
>Sender: owner-meta2@net.lut.ac.uk
>Precedence: bulk
>
>Dear all,
>
>On Saturday I wrote...
>> Some of you may be interested in trying PrismEd. PrismEd is a
>> configurable metadata editor which will cope with structured metadata
>> values. Schema files are provided for Dublin Core (in French and
>> English), and ANZLIC. It produces RDF, and will read the RDF it produces
>> (but I don't claim that it can read arbitrary RDF!).
>>
>> You can view the documentation for PrismEd at
>> http://www.mel.dit.csiro.au:8080/~ajw/prismEd/prismEd/help.html
>>
>> If you have a reasonably modern web browser (with Java 1.1), you can
>> try PrismEd as an applet at
>> http://www.mel.dit.csiro.au:8080/~ajw/prismEd/prismEd.html
>>
>> If you prefer, you can download the PrismEd class files and run it
>> locally using anonymous ftp:
>> ftp://weever.vic.cmis.csiro.au/staff/ajw/prismEd.jar
>>
>> I'd be very interested in bug reports, additional features that people
>> might be interested in, etc.
>
>Our system administrators just turned off anonymous ftp (account
>hackers :-(. To download the class files try the following URLs:
>
>with INTERNET EXPLORER (250K)
> http://www.mel.dit.csiro.au:8080/~ajw/prismEd/prismEd.jar
>
>with NETSCAPE (590K)
> http://www.mel.dit.csiro.au:8080/~ajw/prismEd/prismEd.tar
>(Due to unfortunate interactions between our http server and Netscape,
>the jar file doesn't download correctly. The TAR file can be extracted
>using WinZip).
>
>Sorry for the confusion!
>
>andrew waugh
>
Dr Henry Rzepa, Dept. Chemistry, Imperial College, LONDON SW7 2AY;
mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk; Tel (44) 171 594 5774; Fax: (44) 171 594 5804.
URL: http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/
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From byrnes at prl.research.philips.com Mon Sep 7 19:40:24 1998
From: byrnes at prl.research.philips.com (Nigel Byrnes)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Newbie Question
Message-ID: <35F41AD8.7F530CD1@prl.research.philips.com>
Hi
I'm just getting started in the XML world and I'm working
through Simon St. Laurent's book "XML: A Primer". The start of
chapter 5 looks at the parsing of a simple xml document. So I
type it into a text editor and parse it with MSXML only to
receive the following error message:
C:\msxml>jview msxml -d1 me\simple.xml
Root element name must match the DOCTYPE name
Location: file:/C:/msxml/me/simple.xml(10,2)
Context:
(Attached as an appendix to this mail is the listing of
simple.xml.) From what i can gather, the error occurs at the
second character in the element. The error message is
telling me that the root element name must match the DOCTYPE
name ["simple"]. However, i haven't being able to solve this
error.
I haven't got many more hairs to pull out, so can someone point
in the the right direction. Many thanks,
Nigel
-=-=-=-=- Listing of simple.xml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
]>
This is an entity inside an element:
&Description;
--
Nigel Byrnes, Software Engineering
Applications Group
Philips Research Laboratories,
Redhill. Tel: +44 (0)1293 815578
Surrey, Fax: +44 (0)1293 815024
RH1 5HA. UK Email:
byrnes@prl.research.philips.com
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From digitome at iol.ie Mon Sep 7 20:09:29 1998
From: digitome at iol.ie (Sean Mc grath)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Newbie Question
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.19980907175356.0094c8cc@gpo.iol.ie>
[Nigel Byrnes]
>C:\msxml>jview msxml -d1 me\simple.xml
>Root element name must match the DOCTYPE name
A validating XML parser enforces the constraint that the root
element of the document matches the element type name specified
in the doctype. So this snippet is ok:
(foo matches foo)
but this is not:
(foo does not match baz)
Non-validating parsers, on the other hand, don't care.
Sean Mc Grath
http://www.digitome.com/sean.htm
+353 96 47391
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From simpson at polaris.net Mon Sep 7 20:16:39 1998
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Newbie Question
In-Reply-To: <35F41AD8.7F530CD1@prl.research.philips.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980907141557.00ba07e0@nexus.polaris.net>
Hi Nigel. Don't be worried about being a newbie -- nearly everyone is yet,
at some level. :)
At 06:41 PM 9/7/98 +0100, Nigel Byrnes wrote:
>... I type it into a text editor and parse it with MSXML only to
>receive the following error message:
>
>C:\msxml>jview msxml -d1 me\simple.xml
>Root element name must match the DOCTYPE name
>Location: file:/C:/msxml/me/simple.xml(10,2)
>Context:
>... the error occurs at the
>second character in the element. The error message is
>telling me that the root element name must match the DOCTYPE
>name ["simple"]. However, i haven't being able to solve this
>error.
>
>
> trackNum CDATA #REQUIRED
> secLevel (unclassified|classified)
>"unclassified">
>
>]>
>This is an entity inside an element:
>&Description;
This should be pretty, er, simple. Your DOCTYPE declaration says that the
root element of your document is the element. However, the actual
document (which follows the close of the internal DTD, that is, the line
containing the ]> characters) contains as its root an element called
. Either change the DTD so that the root element is DOCUMENT
(. Remember to keep the capitalization consistent, as (for example)
an element called is *not* the same as one called .
Then you should be all set.
=================================================
John E. Simpson
simpson@flixml.org
http://www.flixml.org
Just XML - coming in September from Prentice-Hall
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 7 22:20:33 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Validating IDREFS...
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19980905131219.007be900@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980907185746.2a0768f6@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 13:12 05/09/98 +0200, Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
>
>I've never felt that this was a difficult choice. For links inside the
>document where you can count on IDs to be present, use IDREF, for
>external links, links to arbitrary elements (or with even finer
>granularity if required) use XPointer.
I have also struggled gently with this and - at present - tend not to use
IDREF at all. The only - but valuable - benefit of IDREF is that it
requires the parser to check presence of IDs. However I believe that the
XLink approach is not to use IDREF for href so that IDREF cannot be used
with XLink. Since XLink is a cornerstone of much of what I do, I can't see
that I should use IDREF. Is this reasonable?
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 7 22:20:39 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Released)
In-Reply-To: <003501bdd93f$3a2ac350$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980907190338.2a070b12@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 19:36 05/09/98 -0700, Don Park wrote:
>Also, as of PR2, DOM SDK can be used for commercial purpose for free. This
>change in licensing policy was made in response to numerous pleas,
>complaints, and comparisons to IBM's free commercial license for XML4J.
>Although comparing Docuverse to IBM is like comparing Tweety Bird to Dolly
>Parton IMHO, we thought the change was necessary to encourage development of
>DOM-based XML software. In another word, we made a mistake when we
>restricted commercial use before. Our appologies.
My sincere thanks for this change of policy. It can and will make an
enormous difference to many of us - otherwise we end up rewriting each
other's software. It is a courageous decision - as was IBM's - and should
be applauded.
I also think it will be a fruitful decision. I have been through the same
thoughts when people have asked whether they could distribute JUMBO in
their book/CDROM or whatever. I now have no problem with this, and am
looking at the GPL for this purpose [comments would be much appreciated.] I
think the quid-pro-quo would be to ask people to register their use with
you and you may well benefit from this.
P.
>
>Best,
>
>Don Park
>Docuverse
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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>
>
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Sep 8 05:36:13 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19980907190338.2a070b12@pop3.demon.co.uk> from "Peter Murray-Rust" at Sep 7, 98 07:03:38 pm
Message-ID: <199809080341.XAA12969@locke.ccil.org>
Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
> My sincere thanks for this change of policy. It can and will make an
> enormous difference to many of us - otherwise we end up rewriting each
> other's software. It is a courageous decision - as was IBM's - and should
> be applauded.
Indeed! Unfortunately, the license is still very restrictive, disallowing
modification of the DOM SDK.
> I now have no problem with this, and am
> looking at the GPL for this purpose [comments would be much appreciated.] I
> think the quid-pro-quo would be to ask people to register their use with
> you and you may well benefit from this.
I would urge Don and you to look at http://www.opensource.org/intro/free, which
has information on why loosening restrictions can be beneficial for
everyone.
The Artistic License is a good substitute for the GPL and allows you
to keep control of the named product while allowing others to create
differently named variations. See http://language.perl.com/misc/Artistic.html .
--
John Cowan cowan@ccil.org
e'osai ko sarji la lojban.
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From Usha_R2 at verifone.com Tue Sep 8 05:44:15 1998
From: Usha_R2 at verifone.com (Usha_R2@verifone.com)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Newbie Question
Message-ID: <7BA6E16CF180D111944700A0C9979DE51D4F77@blr-nt-mail2.verifone.com>
Just make the Document type to be of "DOCUMENT". It will work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
]>
This is an entity inside an element:
&Description;
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
One more clarification. When the above XML file is compiled using MSXML,
in the output the parser does not substitute the contents of the Entity
&Description;. Why it so? Is it a bug in MSXML parser or is there any
error in ENTITIY declaration
Thank you
K. Usha Rani
> ----------
> From: Nigel Byrnes
> Reply To: Nigel Byrnes
> Sent: Monday, September 07, 1998 11:11 PM
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: Newbie Question
>
>
>
> Hi
>
> I'm just getting started in the XML world and I'm working
> through Simon St. Laurent's book "XML: A Primer". The start of
> chapter 5 looks at the parsing of a simple xml document. So I
> type it into a text editor and parse it with MSXML only to
> receive the following error message:
>
> C:\msxml>jview msxml -d1 me\simple.xml
> Root element name must match the DOCTYPE name
> Location: file:/C:/msxml/me/simple.xml(10,2)
> Context:
>
> (Attached as an appendix to this mail is the listing of
> simple.xml.) From what i can gather, the error occurs at the
> second character in the element. The error message is
> telling me that the root element name must match the DOCTYPE
> name ["simple"]. However, i haven't being able to solve this
> error.
>
> I haven't got many more hairs to pull out, so can someone point
> in the the right direction. Many thanks,
>
> Nigel
>
> -=-=-=-=- Listing of simple.xml -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>
>
>
> trackNum CDATA #REQUIRED
> secLevel (unclassified|classified)
> "unclassified">
>
> ]>
> This is an entity inside an element:
> &Description;
>
> --
>
> Nigel Byrnes, Software Engineering
> Applications Group
> Philips Research Laboratories,
> Redhill. Tel: +44 (0)1293 815578
> Surrey, Fax: +44 (0)1293 815024
> RH1 5HA. UK Email:
> byrnes@prl.research.philips.com
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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From bunner at massquantities.com Tue Sep 8 05:59:38 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Java Script, and it's conflicts with 2.4.4
Message-ID: <199809080359.UAA11275@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
The XSL Working Draft seems to make it impossible to generate an HTML
file with embedded Java Script.
"Impossible" might be too strong a word, but I can't find any method to
get the literal character '<' into my generated file. So, if you're
interested in doing Java Script comparisons, you seem to be limited to
equality and inequality.
I can only see three reasons for this...
1) I've missed something and there is a way to do it, but it's not obvious
2) The XSL Working Group made a gross oversight
3) There's some extremely good reason for this design decision, but it's
not obvious
If we're looking at case two, then I'd like to suggest a revision to
section 2.4.4. Since we already have a way to generate < I think we
ought to make put the literal character '<' in the generated
file.
If we're looking at case three, then I'd like say that, IMHO, the
well-formedness of the generated document is not so important that we
should prohibit the author from putting in characters that need to be there.
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From jeremy at omsys.com Tue Sep 8 06:18:03 1998
From: jeremy at omsys.com (Jeremy H. Griffith)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Java Script, and it's conflicts with 2.4.4
In-Reply-To: <199809080359.UAA11275@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
References: <199809080359.UAA11275@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3652af44.622192074@mail.together.net>
On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 21:05:17 -0700, Andrew Bunner
wrote:
> "Impossible" might be too strong a word, but I can't find any method to
>get the literal character '<' into my generated file. So, if you're
>interested in doing Java Script comparisons, you seem to be limited to
>equality and inequality.
There's always the hack used for older browsers that suffered from
the same problem... reverse the terms in the comparison and use '>'.
Or is that prohibited too?
-- Jeremy H. Griffith, at Omni Systems Inc.
(jeremy@omsys.com) http://www.omsys.com/
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Sep 8 06:46:22 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Message-ID: <001f01bddae2$3caee1c0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
>Indeed! Unfortunately, the license is still very restrictive, disallowing
>modification of the DOM SDK.
John,
Docuverse is not a non-profit organization nor is it a purely
consulting-based business. We build development tools and high performance
servers. It is our intention to offer free commercial quality DOM
implementation to promote popularity of DOM-based software which will turn
increase the need for high performance DOM implementation which we intend to
introduce soon as a commercial product. To this end, it is important that
we promote our API and minimize proliferation of variations so that users
can simply 'plugin' the high performance version. Furthermore, we believe
that extensions are better than variations and we will make sure that our
API is easily extensible.
Best,
Don Park
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From tyler at infinet.com Tue Sep 8 07:01:37 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <199809080341.XAA12969@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <35F4BA73.EA707E0C@infinet.com>
John Cowan wrote:
> Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
>
> > My sincere thanks for this change of policy. It can and will make an
> > enormous difference to many of us - otherwise we end up rewriting each
> > other's software. It is a courageous decision - as was IBM's - and should
> > be applauded.
>
> Indeed! Unfortunately, the license is still very restrictive, disallowing
> modification of the DOM SDK.
>
> > I now have no problem with this, and am
> > looking at the GPL for this purpose [comments would be much appreciated.] I
> > think the quid-pro-quo would be to ask people to register their use with
> > you and you may well benefit from this.
>
> I would urge Don and you to look at http://www.opensource.org/intro/free, which
> has information on why loosening restrictions can be beneficial for
> everyone.
>
> The Artistic License is a good substitute for the GPL and allows you
> to keep control of the named product while allowing others to create
> differently named variations. See http://language.perl.com/misc/Artistic.html .
If you ever plan on making any money off of a product, never give it away for free.
If you are not planning on ever making money on a product, then it is of the most
benefit to essentially publish the source-code as is and let anyone do what they
want with it. The only reasons I see for creating free software is either idealism,
enhancing your personal or company reputation in the developer community, or to kill
your up and coming competitors.
Not charging for a product initially, and then later on (when the competition has
subsided) charging for a product is about the same as marking down airline fares
below cost to kill of competition and then raising them later on to insane levels.
The worst way to lose face with other developers is to not be clear about your
long-term plans for a product. Developers (at least the intelligent ones) will pay
for a superior product that cuts down the development time of their current project
so long as the licensing is clear and consistent over time. Anything less is
pulling a fast one in my book...
The DOM SDK license is as restrictive as Docuverse wants to make it. In the real
world there is no such thing as a free lunch so you should not expect Docuverse or
any other small ISV to be the angels of free software.
Even though I don't plan on using the DOM SDK myself anytime soon, I think it would
do the developer community more benefit in the long run if Docuverse were to charge
a fair price for a commercial license so there is incentive in the future for
Docuverse to do bug-fixes and updates and maybe even provide some level of support.
If you look at Netscape, they have basically capitulated on improving the web
browser (no incentive to improve it or add new features) and their future as a
profitable company is suspect. They were a company that gave everything away for
free to kill off browser competition early on and then tried to charge for it when
the competition died off. Then of course, Microsoft jumped in and did to Netscape
what Netscape did to everyone else. In the end, the customers lose because from
this point on web browsers will likely have little innovation applied to them from
this point out. In other words they will just plain suck.
For those people using the DOM SDK now and who enjoy the product, I would seriously
encourage these people to plea for Docuverse to charge something for a commercial
license, even if it is as low as $99 so that they can have some solace in the fact
that there will be future quality versions of the DOM SDK. 99$ is basically the
same cost as 3 development hours for the average engineer. If 99$ is too much money
to spend on any commercial product, then your whole business plan for your product
needs some serious reevaluation. Small ISV's like Docuverse should not feel
pressured to capitulate to the large ISV's like IBM or Microsoft who can afford to
give all their tools away for free in their efforts to squelch the up and coming.
If you look at the best XML tools to date you will find that they are not from the
big names that we know of, rather small guys who are dedicated to quality. If we
all want quality tools to work with we will all need to put our money where our
mouth is one way or another.
My 2 cents...
Tyler
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From bunner at massquantities.com Tue Sep 8 07:50:01 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Java Script, and it's conflicts with 2.4.4
In-Reply-To: <3652af44.622192074@mail.together.net>
References: <199809080359.UAA11275@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
<199809080359.UAA11275@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <199809080549.WAA11710@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
>There's always the hack used for older browsers that suffered from
>the same problem... reverse the terms in the comparison and use '>'.
>Or is that prohibited too?
The problem runs deeper than that.
Any occurence of &,',",< or > in the style sheet or in the element
content of the XML document will be escaped to &xxx;
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 8 07:53:04 1998
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
In-Reply-To: <199809080341.XAA12969@locke.ccil.org>
References: <3.0.1.16.19980907190338.2a070b12@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.16.19980908065237.2dbfb0d8@pop3.demon.co.uk>
At 23:41 07/09/98 -0400, John Cowan wrote:
>
>The Artistic License is a good substitute for the GPL and allows you
>to keep control of the named product while allowing others to create
>differently named variations. See
http://language.perl.com/misc/Artistic.html
I've had a similar [private] suggestion for the AL. I saw it a few years
ago and liked it but hadn't seen it since.
Since I believe this is a key issue for XML it could be very useful to have
somewhere that people thinking of releasing XML code could go for help. Is
this an OASIS area? i.e. to provide some guidance or material of the sort
'this is what people have already done...'.
IOW my motivation is something like:
' I want a simple license that allows anyone to use my source code but:
to respect authors' moral rights
not to include legal liability
not to imply author support or responsibility for distributed versions
(i.e. if someone else distributes my code, *I* don't suffer if it something
goes wrong).
I'd probably be quite happy to use and amend James' Clark's license but
there might be small things I want to add. To be able to pick a license off
the shelf would be very useful and also leads to a greater degree of
community support and feeling.
P.
P.
Peter Murray-Rust, Director Virtual School of Molecular Sciences, domestic
net connection
VSMS http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms, Virtual Hyperglossary
http://www.venus.co.uk/vhg
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Sep 8 08:01:32 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:26 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Message-ID: <000c01bddaec$a82c3b50$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Tyler,
>For those people using the DOM SDK now and who enjoy the product, I would
seriously
>encourage these people to plea for Docuverse to charge something for a
commercial
>license, even if it is as low as $99 so that they can have some solace in
the fact
>that there will be future quality versions of the DOM SDK. 99$ is
basically the
>same cost as 3 development hours for the average engineer. If 99$ is too
much money
>to spend on any commercial product, then your whole business plan for your
product
>needs some serious reevaluation. Small ISV's like Docuverse should not
feel
>pressured to capitulate to the large ISV's like IBM or Microsoft who can
afford to
>give all their tools away for free in their efforts to squelch the up and
coming.
Thanks for the thought but even if all of the hundred or so DOM SDK users I
am aware of sent me a check for $99, it will not even begin to cover the
cost of developing and maintaining the DOM SDK. It is also unfair to tax
early developers with financial burden. They are mostly individual
developers with pioneering spirits working in explorative projects which are
not usually funded well. I think it makes more sense to 'invest' in
encouraging these pioneers so that XML-based technologies will be widely
accepted in corporations around the world. At this time, far less than 1%
of data in corporations are in XML format. When the figure exceeds 10%, we
will begin to see the fruits of our combined efforts.
Best,
Don Park
Docuverse
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From tyler at infinet.com Tue Sep 8 09:03:40 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <000c01bddaec$a82c3b50$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <35F4D71E.C88CDDD0@infinet.com>
Don Park wrote:
> Tyler,
>
> >For those people using the DOM SDK now and who enjoy the product, I would
> seriously
> >encourage these people to plea for Docuverse to charge something for a
> commercial
> >license, even if it is as low as $99 so that they can have some solace in
> the fact
> >that there will be future quality versions of the DOM SDK. 99$ is
> basically the
> >same cost as 3 development hours for the average engineer. If 99$ is too
> much money
> >to spend on any commercial product, then your whole business plan for your
> product
> >needs some serious reevaluation. Small ISV's like Docuverse should not
> feel
> >pressured to capitulate to the large ISV's like IBM or Microsoft who can
> afford to
> >give all their tools away for free in their efforts to squelch the up and
> coming.
>
> Thanks for the thought but even if all of the hundred or so DOM SDK users I
> am aware of sent me a check for $99, it will not even begin to cover the
> cost of developing and maintaining the DOM SDK. It is also unfair to tax
> early developers with financial burden. They are mostly individual
> developers with pioneering spirits working in explorative projects which are
> not usually funded well. I think it makes more sense to 'invest' in
> encouraging these pioneers so that XML-based technologies will be widely
> accepted in corporations around the world. At this time, far less than 1%
> of data in corporations are in XML format. When the figure exceeds 10%, we
> will begin to see the fruits of our combined efforts.
I agree totally here, but I think this misses the point. Large ISV's are rarely
innovators, but adapters. They let all the small guys like Docuverse do all the
hard work to grow the market and come up with useful implementations and
marketing plans and then clone both the implementations and marketing plans and
use anti-competitive business practices like giving away free software to own the
market that the little guys worked so hard to create.
Yes the early adopters should not be punished for developing with your product,
but they should be charged something if they ever use it in a real application.
Whatever you charge can then be discounted at your discretion based upon things
like how active they were in beta-testing, but only give away your software for
free if you never intend upon charging for it. Likewise, developers who use
free-tools should accept them as is and not expect any kind of support
whatsoever, nor should they expect any degree of product quality.
Though this may bring about a lot of flames, for-profit organizations should not
be allowed to give out free-software. What once was a great libertarian idea I
feel now has become a tool of large software monopolies to protect their own turf
and promote an anti-competive software market in general. Large ISV's make most
of their money selling support for their own tools, not on the actual software
itself. The crappier the software, the more support they sell. You would think
most IT organizations would catch on, but to date they have not. They continue
to buy overpriced databases (and support), overpriced computing systems and spend
billions on fly-by night consultants that would be unnecessary if the software
was robust in the first place. When a large ISV gives away free software, it is
a simple bait and trap.
You should be able to take a company to court and sue for damages if you can
prove that they are willing to lose money on a software product solely to win
market-share. These sort of practices are bad for the software industry and
discourage entrepreneurial endeavours in general.
Anyways this is an XML-DEV list so I will try and end this thread here as the
politics of the software industry have little to with promoting and developing
XML in the first place...
Tyler
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From b.laforge at jxml.com Tue Sep 8 10:29:10 1998
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Message-ID: <002701bddb02$85580e40$5255fea9@laforge>
I think it is important to distinguish between enabling software and
product.
The W3C DOM is a technology enabler. A high-speed implementation is a
product. The Docuverse SDK is something in between. Call it an expedient?
I have been wrestling with these concepts for a while myself. I'd like to
see the Coins api widly adopted. So I've tried to make use of common api
(SAX and DOM), rather than provide a propriatary one. But I am driven by a
need to make a profit. I hope to do this by charging a reasonable price for
related development tools.
The bet that I am making is that Coins will become widespread and that I can
make a reasonable profit selling those tools for $99.
Bill la Forge
http://www.jxml.com/
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From b.laforge at jxml.com Tue Sep 8 10:32:07 1998
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Coins 1 release
Message-ID: <002d01bddb02$e34e02c0$5255fea9@laforge>
Just a quick note to say that version 1 of Coins has been completed and
released: http://www.jxml.com/coins/index.html
Coins is an XML-based alternative to Java Beans. Coins version 1 is
available for commercial use without charge to all registered
developers--see the download page for details:
http://www.jxml.com/coins/download.html
Coins uses both SAX and the Docuverse SDK 1.0 pr 2.
Bill la Forge
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From tyler at infinet.com Tue Sep 8 10:53:27 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <002701bddb02$85580e40$5255fea9@laforge>
Message-ID: <35F4F0D9.EB9B6991@infinet.com>
Bill la Forge wrote:
> I think it is important to distinguish between enabling software and
> product.
>
> The W3C DOM is a technology enabler. A high-speed implementation is a
> product. The Docuverse SDK is something in between. Call it an expedient?
>
> I have been wrestling with these concepts for a while myself. I'd like to
> see the Coins api widly adopted. So I've tried to make use of common api
> (SAX and DOM), rather than provide a propriatary one. But I am driven by a
> need to make a profit. I hope to do this by charging a reasonable price for
> related development tools.
>
> The bet that I am making is that Coins will become widespread and that I can
> make a reasonable profit selling those tools for $99.
I haven't looked at coins too much in the last 5 months myself, but it seems
like a useful tool for building parameter-driven applications that if put behind
a big name software label could easily sell for $999 a seat. The biggest
failure of a lot of software companies is being indecisive with pricing. Either
you go for high-volume, low-margins in a general market, or else you go for
low-value, high-margins in a niche market. Low-level tools like parsers
generally sell in the high-volume market, while high-level software like Coins I
would think is more of a niche application that some organizations would pay
top-dollar for. On the other end of the spectrum, if you could prove to people
that parameter-driven application development is far superior to traditional
application development, then Coins may become much more pervasive allowing you
to lower-the price of coins and go for volume.
On a sidenote to coins, an individual developer named Jack Harich who hangs out
on the Advanced-Java mailing list (I am sure you are familiar with it) has done
a lot of personal research on stuff that is right up the alley of what I
perceive coins to be. Maybe you two should correspond. I remember someone
referring Jack to your work before, so maybe you two have already corresponded.
Tyler
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From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Sep 8 12:23:52 1998
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <199809080341.XAA12969@locke.ccil.org> <35F4BA73.EA707E0C@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <35F50BAC.DA69F331@finetuning.com>
I think it is very important that we all get used to the idea of giving
everything away for now.
As a writer and developer that has chosen the path of working harder
more often for less money, this last year of working more for less has
to have been the most fulfilling year of my life.
I would literally not be able to even consider trying affording
something like a $99 license for something like DOM SDK. That would be
enough of a financial imposition to knock me right out of the game.
Now, of course, being out of the game is not an option. So that means I
would have to (gasp) use it without a license, pirate it, steal it,
never pay my little reg fee, whatever.
So be it, if necessary, to be honest. But I much prefer an open, honest,
atmosphere of open source-based generosity: where everybody does the
best that they can with whatever community-based tools are available --
which in our case are the best available anyway (as far as tools that
"let" you think for yourself go -- don't get me started on the black box
again :-)
So what am I (admittedly) taking so long to say? I'm saying:
don't sweat the small shit man! There are bigger fish to fry in the
long run if we all stick together now and just relish in sharing
knowledge for the sake of itself -- mmmmm, mmmmm, mmmmm, look at all
that free knowledge and understanding -- it has a snowball effect once
it gets going -- it's raising the bar in people's minds of what are
acceptable software practices -- and you know as well as I do that THAT
was a bar that REALLY needed to be raised -- and I for one am willing to
eat a little more top ramen now if that means that we have a superior
foundation for universal data interchange in the future.
And the other thing to consider, for those of you who (understandably)
have maybe already been biting the bullet financially for a lot longer
than I've even known what an abstract data model was, is that when this
stuff takes off, and it will ;-)...there are really only going to be a
couple hundred people (max) that are going to really understand it well
enough to implement it on the grand scale that is going to be required.
And THAT is then when the capitalistic principles of supply and demand
will be in our favor in a big way -- plus we'll be able to offer more
practically-feasible, intellectually-fulfilling solutions, to the world
and each other, precisely because we did not sacrifice quality and
integrity for a quick buck early on.
By taking this kind of idealistic pride in our work, we are all making a
very serious investment in each others' future that is valuable in the
long run. We also provide a good example to the rest of the world that
it does pay to "give it away".
We must foster and cherish these kinds of community-based, open
development environments that may be only written about in the future --
we have been fortunate enough to have been here when much of this was
"just beginning", and now it is our responsibility to do everything in
our power to see that it never ends.
So anyway, I'm just taking a long time to say that this is not time to
get pessimistic about anything being "all for nothing," but rather it's
more important than ever to continue to lead by example, and seize the
day!
If unlimited informational exchange is the free-love of the 90's
-- I say "love is all you need".
lisa
Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> John Cowan wrote:
>
> > Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
> >
> > > My sincere thanks for this change of policy. It can and will make an
> > > enormous difference to many of us - otherwise we end up rewriting each
> > > other's software. It is a courageous decision - as was IBM's - and should
> > > be applauded.
> >
> > Indeed! Unfortunately, the license is still very restrictive, disallowing
> > modification of the DOM SDK.
> >
> > > I now have no problem with this, and am
> > > looking at the GPL for this purpose [comments would be much appreciated.] I
> > > think the quid-pro-quo would be to ask people to register their use with
> > > you and you may well benefit from this.
> >
> > I would urge Don and you to look at http://www.opensource.org/intro/free, which
> > has information on why loosening restrictions can be beneficial for
> > everyone.
> >
> > The Artistic License is a good substitute for the GPL and allows you
> > to keep control of the named product while allowing others to create
> > differently named variations. See http://language.perl.com/misc/Artistic.html .
>
> If you ever plan on making any money off of a product, never give it away for free.
> If you are not planning on ever making money on a product, then it is of the most
> benefit to essentially publish the source-code as is and let anyone do what they
> want with it. The only reasons I see for creating free software is either idealism,
> enhancing your personal or company reputation in the developer community, or to kill
> your up and coming competitors.
>
> Not charging for a product initially, and then later on (when the competition has
> subsided) charging for a product is about the same as marking down airline fares
> below cost to kill of competition and then raising them later on to insane levels.
>
> The worst way to lose face with other developers is to not be clear about your
> long-term plans for a product. Developers (at least the intelligent ones) will pay
> for a superior product that cuts down the development time of their current project
> so long as the licensing is clear and consistent over time. Anything less is
> pulling a fast one in my book...
>
> The DOM SDK license is as restrictive as Docuverse wants to make it. In the real
> world there is no such thing as a free lunch so you should not expect Docuverse or
> any other small ISV to be the angels of free software.
>
> Even though I don't plan on using the DOM SDK myself anytime soon, I think it would
> do the developer community more benefit in the long run if Docuverse were to charge
> a fair price for a commercial license so there is incentive in the future for
> Docuverse to do bug-fixes and updates and maybe even provide some level of support.
>
> If you look at Netscape, they have basically capitulated on improving the web
> browser (no incentive to improve it or add new features) and their future as a
> profitable company is suspect. They were a company that gave everything away for
> free to kill off browser competition early on and then tried to charge for it when
> the competition died off. Then of course, Microsoft jumped in and did to Netscape
> what Netscape did to everyone else. In the end, the customers lose because from
> this point on web browsers will likely have little innovation applied to them from
> this point out. In other words they will just plain suck.
>
> For those people using the DOM SDK now and who enjoy the product, I would seriously
> encourage these people to plea for Docuverse to charge something for a commercial
> license, even if it is as low as $99 so that they can have some solace in the fact
> that there will be future quality versions of the DOM SDK. 99$ is basically the
> same cost as 3 development hours for the average engineer. If 99$ is too much money
> to spend on any commercial product, then your whole business plan for your product
> needs some serious reevaluation. Small ISV's like Docuverse should not feel
> pressured to capitulate to the large ISV's like IBM or Microsoft who can afford to
> give all their tools away for free in their efforts to squelch the up and coming.
>
> If you look at the best XML tools to date you will find that they are not from the
> big names that we know of, rather small guys who are dedicated to quality. If we
> all want quality tools to work with we will all need to put our money where our
> mouth is one way or another.
>
> My 2 cents...
>
> Tyler
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Sep 8 12:28:53 1998
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <000c01bddaec$a82c3b50$2ee044c6@arcot-main> <35F4D71E.C88CDDD0@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <35F51037.2753FF72@finetuning.com>
Tyler wrote:
> Anyways this is an XML-DEV list so I will try and end this thread here as the
> politics of the software industry have little to with promoting and developing
> XML in the first place...
exactly.....we can not let the fear-inspired patterns of the past
infiltrate the purity of our vision of the future.
lisa
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From arcdev at mail.matav.hu Tue Sep 8 13:02:15 1998
From: arcdev at mail.matav.hu (Attila Torcsvari)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: XML tools and big documents (was: Re: Is there a size limitation on XML file given to MSXSL as input?)
Message-ID: <01BDDB28.D9EAF230@p2>
Fellow DOMers,
have anybody tested/compared (consequently) the mem. requirements and speed of different DOM implementations?
Attila Torcsvari
Arcanum Development
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Sep 8 14:01:24 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: ANN: Docuverse HTML SDK 0.1
Message-ID: <001a01bddb1e$eeae3ce0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Docuverse HTML SDK 0.1 is available at:
http://www.docuverse.com/htmlsdk/index.html
It is currently very small right now (about 10K ZIP file) but it contains
something I am quite sure all the SAX users will want: a HTML parser with
SAX driver. Actually, it does not contain a HTML parser, instead the HTML
parser in the latest Swing release (1.1 Beta 2) is used. Docuverse's own
HTML parser is being written but it is a painful process so this will have
to do for now.
A DOMReader implementation is also included. Note that with HTML SDK and
DOM SDK together, you can now create DOM out of any HTML files.
Best,
Don Park
Docuverse
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Sep 8 14:01:25 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Message-ID: <001901bddb1e$ee01a930$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Lisa,
I agree with everything you said except for two things:
1. Not all of us can adopt open-source policy.
2. Top Ramen sucks. You should try Shin Ramen (available in Korean grocery
stores) which is sinfully spicy and cheaper.
Best,
Don Park
Docuverse
PS: I think you just earned yourself one of those LISTRIVIA from Peter .
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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk Tue Sep 8 16:42:14 1998
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Fwd: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
Message-ID:
>X-Sender: pazpmr@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk
>Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:40:11 +0100
>To: h.rzepa@ic.ac.uk
>From: Peter Murray-Rust
>Subject: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
>Mime-Version: 1.0
>
>Henry,
> Please could you forward this to XML-DEV - ta.
>------------------------------------------------------
>
>I am continuing to miss 'real' applications of XML that I can enthuse about
>to people - and I suspect others share this feeling (cf. SimonStL's posting
>on cement shoes). In this message I propose that XML-DEV - a Bazaar as Eric
>Raymond calls it [1] - develop a small rapid communal application to
>demonstrate that XML can do new things. If you are excited by this, read on.
>
>IMO many killer apps will come from using XML client-side. The following
>proposal requires an almost completely dumb server capable only of
>re-routing XML documents.
>
>I propose that we develop an XML-based system for games.
>
>Chess is chosen as somewhere to start. It is not a killer app but the
>methodology is easy to extend. It would be as easy to do it for go. Henry
>and I will use it for molecular whiteboards - discussing molecules over the
>WWW - for example. If you have better ideas than 2-player games, suggest
>them (but be prepared to make some contribution...)
>
>We assume a simple XML representation of the state of a chess game (a
>simple 8x8 table with characters would suffice.) A player makes a (legal)
>alteration to this state and sends it as an XML document to the other
>player, either through the dumb server or possibly through e-mail (I am
>ignorant of whether this is a good idea). The updated state is then
>recreated for the receiving player and so on.
>
>It is straightforward to display this with a per-element browser such as
>JUMBO or (I assume) XXX from Steve Withall. The programmer has to be able to:
> - display the state
> - allow moves to be made (mouse, typed text, etc.)
> - verify their legality (the main point of client-side code)
> - send the new state to the other player.
>
>In JUMBO there are only about 3 modules that need to be written for such a
>component:
> - constructor // resets the board
> - processXML() // having reached endElement() in SAX, process the subtree
> - getDisplayComponent() // provide a JComponent for embedding in the browser
>The rest of the code is unrelated to XML and might include verifying the
>legality of moves.
>
>This should be fairly easy to do - it should also provide a simple
>demonstrator which can be used anywhere. The palyer would have to:
>
> - download a browser
> - download the chess.jar file
> - know how to play chess.
>
>It would be really fun to do it with more than one browser, showing that
>XML was not browser-dependent. i.e. player 1 could have JUMBO2 and player2
>could have XXX. [Of course until we get a consistent per-element API there
>would be different chess classes for each browser - or each class might
>have to to have multiple hooks.]
>
>There are several reasons why this is a useful thing to do:
> - could bring in new people
> - gives an easily understandable demo of XML that does something that HTML
>can't do (yes, I know that you can do *anything* server-side and send the
>results to an HTML form, but that misses the point of XML)
> - gives us experience in per-element programming
> - gives us experience of developing collaborative environments using XML.
>Obviously for games with >2 players the server may have to make some
>decisions but this should be a valuable area to explore.
>
> P.
>
>[1]http://sagan.earthspace.net/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/ - well worth
>reading as are some of the links.
>-----------------------------------------------------
>
Dr Henry Rzepa, Dept. Chemistry, Imperial College, LONDON SW7 2AY;
mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk; Tel (44) 171 594 5774; Fax: (44) 171 594 5804.
URL: http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/
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From gcsfred at magma.ca Tue Sep 8 16:54:44 1998
From: gcsfred at magma.ca (Gustavo Frederico)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Fwd: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
Message-ID: <199809081453.KAA25180@mag1.magmacom.com>
I have some other questions:
If you want to build this chess game for 2 players ove the net, is
XML a good way to do it? Is it the best way? Why? What about a java servlet?
I would like to hear more about that from you list members.
On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:44:44 +0100, "Rzepa, Henry" wrote:
> >X-Sender: pazpmr@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk
> >Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:40:11 +0100
> >To: h.rzepa@ic.ac.uk
> >From: Peter Murray-Rust
> >Subject: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
> >Mime-Version: 1.0
> >
> >Henry,
> > Please could you forward this to XML-DEV - ta.
> >------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >I am continuing to miss 'real' applications of XML that I can enthuse about
> >to people - and I suspect others share this feeling (cf. SimonStL's posting
> >on cement shoes). In this message I propose that XML-DEV - a Bazaar as Eric
> >Raymond calls it [1] - develop a small rapid communal application to
> >demonstrate that XML can do new things. If you are excited by this, read on.
> >
> >IMO many killer apps will come from using XML client-side. The following
> >proposal requires an almost completely dumb server capable only of
> >re-routing XML documents.
> >
> >I propose that we develop an XML-based system for games.
> >
> >Chess is chosen as somewhere to start. It is not a killer app but the
> >methodology is easy to extend. It would be as easy to do it for go. Henry
> >and I will use it for molecular whiteboards - discussing molecules over the
> >WWW - for example. If you have better ideas than 2-player games, suggest
> >them (but be prepared to make some contribution...)
> >
[snip]
> >
> >There are several reasons why this is a useful thing to do:
> > - could bring in new people
> > - gives an easily understandable demo of XML that does something that
HTML
> >can't do (yes, I know that you can do *anything* server-side and send the
> >results to an HTML form, but that misses the point of XML)
> > - gives us experience in per-element programming
> > - gives us experience of developing collaborative environments using
XML.
> >Obviously for games with >2 players the server may have to make some
> >decisions but this should be a valuable area to explore.
> >
>
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From b.laforge at jxml.com Tue Sep 8 17:16:32 1998
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
Message-ID: <001a01bddb3b$69663020$1a10fea9@laforge>
>And the other thing to consider, for those of you who (understandably)
>have maybe already been biting the bullet financially for a lot longer
>than I've even known what an abstract data model was, is that when this
>stuff takes off, and it will ;-)...there are really only going to be a
>couple hundred people (max) that are going to really understand it well
>enough to implement it on the grand scale that is going to be required.
>And THAT is then when the capitalistic principles of supply and demand
>will be in our favor in a big way -- plus we'll be able to offer more
>practically-feasible, intellectually-fulfilling solutions, to the world
>and each other, precisely because we did not sacrifice quality and
>integrity for a quick buck early on.
Lisa,
Any product in the $99 class has got to be looking at a broad base of
sales--which is what I want to do with some of the Coins add-on's like a
revised mint capability. What seems to make sense to me is to price it at
$99.00 for the final commercial version, but to keep it in "free beta" mode
until the market is ready.
(Not to mislead, JXML is also looking at other development tools that would
be at a much higher price and consequently require a much smaller market.)
Frankly, I'd rather be working on this stuff (only) full time and get my
life back. I think it is important to set up a reasonable business model,
while taking care to develop that market.
There will always be a place for enabling technology. I believe in open
source, too--makes for better software. And coming from The Open Group, I've
seen how commercial constraints on software lead to all kinds of
complications for researchers.
So lets admit that it is complicated, and be sensitive in our policies. But
to realize our dreams, we need the commercial side too. I for one would like
to see a market develop which encouraged independent developers and small
independent companies. There's got to be a better business model than trying
to be bought up by Microsoft.
XML is a simplifier. That makes it both pro-freeware and pro-small business.
We don't need the large products to have something useable. Can we see our
way as a community to a business model that truely serves all our needs?
Bill
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From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Sep 8 17:36:13 1998
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:27 2004
Subject: Fwd: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
References: <199809081453.KAA25180@mag1.magmacom.com>
Message-ID: <35F5583C.BD9070D4@finetuning.com>
yes an xml-enabled javaservlet is the way to go! (in general :-)
lisa
Gustavo Frederico wrote:
>
> I have some other questions:
> If you want to build this chess game for 2 players ove the net, is
> XML a good way to do it? Is it the best way? Why? What about a java servlet?
> I would like to hear more about that from you list members.
>
> On Tue, 8 Sep 1998 15:44:44 +0100, "Rzepa, Henry" wrote:
> > >X-Sender: pazpmr@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk
> > >Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 14:40:11 +0100
> > >To: h.rzepa@ic.ac.uk
> > >From: Peter Murray-Rust
> > >Subject: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
> > >Mime-Version: 1.0
> > >
> > >Henry,
> > > Please could you forward this to XML-DEV - ta.
> > >------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > >I am continuing to miss 'real' applications of XML that I can enthuse about
> > >to people - and I suspect others share this feeling (cf. SimonStL's posting
> > >on cement shoes). In this message I propose that XML-DEV - a Bazaar as Eric
> > >Raymond calls it [1] - develop a small rapid communal application to
> > >demonstrate that XML can do new things. If you are excited by this, read on.
> > >
> > >IMO many killer apps will come from using XML client-side. The following
> > >proposal requires an almost completely dumb server capable only of
> > >re-routing XML documents.
> > >
> > >I propose that we develop an XML-based system for games.
> > >
> > >Chess is chosen as somewhere to start. It is not a killer app but the
> > >methodology is easy to extend. It would be as easy to do it for go. Henry
> > >and I will use it for molecular whiteboards - discussing molecules over the
> > >WWW - for example. If you have better ideas than 2-player games, suggest
> > >them (but be prepared to make some contribution...)
> > >
> [snip]
> > >
> > >There are several reasons why this is a useful thing to do:
> > > - could bring in new people
> > > - gives an easily understandable demo of XML that does something that
> HTML
> > >can't do (yes, I know that you can do *anything* server-side and send the
> > >results to an HTML form, but that misses the point of XML)
> > > - gives us experience in per-element programming
> > > - gives us experience of developing collaborative environments using
> XML.
> > >Obviously for games with >2 players the server may have to make some
> > >decisions but this should be a valuable area to explore.
> > >
> >
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Sep 8 17:44:54 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <3.0.1.16.19980907190338.2a070b12@pop3.demon.co.uk> <3.0.1.16.19980908065237.2dbfb0d8@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <35F55071.7204B28C@locke.ccil.org>
Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> IOW my motivation is something like:
> ' I want a simple license that allows anyone to use my source code but:
> to respect authors' moral rights
> not to include legal liability
> not to imply author support or responsibility for distributed versions
> (i.e. if someone else distributes my code, *I* don't suffer if it something
> goes wrong).
>
> I'd probably be quite happy to use and amend James' Clark's license but
> there might be small things I want to add. To be able to pick a license off
> the shelf would be very useful and also leads to a greater degree of
> community support and feeling.
James Clark's license is what is called a "BSD" license, because
the BSD version of Unix is distributed under it. It's the least
restrictive license: basically, anyone can do anything they want to
with the code, except hike off the author's name or use his name
for advertising purposes. In addition, the author must be
acknowledged in uses made of the code. (That's just simple courtesy.)
The Artistic License allows people to hack on the code for their
own use, and distribute modified versions if they give them new
names. (This guarantees, e.g., that "perl" is always Larry Wall's
version, but anyone may distribute something called "emereld"
that contains modified code.)
The heavyweight license is the GPL, which is designed to keep code
under it "forever free" by preventing anyone from distributing
modified versions except under the GPL. (It does not affect the
*output* of GPLed programs, nor is it forbidden for a program
to be distributed both under the GPL and otherwise.)
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From bunner at massquantities.com Tue Sep 8 18:20:28 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: Clever ideas to do toc...
Message-ID: <199809081620.JAA07371@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Let's say I'm describing the hiearchy of our web site in an XML document
like
so...
In a given section, the user has links to all the other pages in that
section
as well as top-level links to the other sections. In other words, I only want
to "expand" the section that the user is currently in.
An XML document that's a part of this hiearchy has some tag that says where
it fits in. Maye 1.1.xml will have or something...
(e.g. &entity-that-expands-to-site-map;
In the XSL proposal, I'd have a field day writing a nifty Java Script
function to do exactly this... in the new world, I'm not sure it can be
done at
all.
The crux of the problem is that I don't know how to make the compare the contents or attribute values of one tag to the content
or attribute values of another tag. It appears as though the only thing you
can
do is with the test attribute is test the position of a tag relative to other
tags and what attributes it has.
I'd like to do something like this...
1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
.
.
.
Obviously, line 5 needs some work. If anyone has any ideas or suggestions on
how to reach the goal of spitting out something like the table below, I would
be very grateful...
Section 1
Section 2
Page 2.1
Page 2.2
Section 3
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From Kenneth.J.Meltsner at jci.com Tue Sep 8 19:00:54 1998
From: Kenneth.J.Meltsner at jci.com (Meltsner, Kenneth J)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: Clever ideas to do toc...
Message-ID: <86256679.005D502D.00@Corpnotes.JCI.Com>
You could swipe a good idea from the relational database folks, and number
the tree nodes sequentially, and then select a sub-tree based on a range of
node numbers. I've lost the original reference (from DBMS Magazine) but
here's a quick example from a similar problem:
Hierarchical organizational trees:
1. Company (1,6)
2. Department A (2,4)
3. Group A1 (3,3)
4. Group A2 (4,4)
5. Department B (5,6)
6. Group B1 (6,6)
This allows you to represent the whole company, hierarchical info, etc. in
one table. A node that contains additional nodes can be expanded by
showing the range of nodes listed for that parent node . It doesn't handle
more complicated relationships, such as multiple parents, though.
As I'm not enough of an XML type to be sure, should the node number and
range info be shoved into an attribute (during authoring) or should it be
generated as the document is parsed?
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From tyler at infinet.com Tue Sep 8 20:19:54 1998
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <001901bddb1e$ee01a930$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
Message-ID: <35F575A3.F4B6B762@infinet.com>
Don Park wrote:
> Lisa,
>
> I agree with everything you said except for two things:
>
> 1. Not all of us can adopt open-source policy.
> 2. Top Ramen sucks. You should try Shin Ramen (available in Korean grocery
> stores) which is sinfully spicy and cheaper.
#2 is very true. But it is nice to have the cash floating around when you want
to order a pizza. Either way all of these food products are bad for your health
and if eaten in great concentrations will give you a heart attack by age 32.
Tyler
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From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Sep 8 20:30:45 1998
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: Licensing policies (was Re: ANN: Docuverse DOM SDK PR2
References: <001901bddb1e$ee01a930$2ee044c6@arcot-main> <35F575A3.F4B6B762@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <35F5812C.AE8C2833@finetuning.com>
don't worry, i add vegetables
...i don't eat the salt packet ;-)
lisa
Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> Don Park wrote:
>
> > Lisa,
> >
> > I agree with everything you said except for two things:
> >
> > 1. Not all of us can adopt open-source policy.
> > 2. Top Ramen sucks. You should try Shin Ramen (available in Korean grocery
> > stores) which is sinfully spicy and cheaper.
>
> #2 is very true. But it is nice to have the cash floating around when you want
> to order a pizza. Either way all of these food products are bad for your health
> and if eaten in great concentrations will give you a heart attack by age 32.
>
> Tyler
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From david at megginson.com Tue Sep 8 21:14:07 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: More SAX Parsers and Applications?
Message-ID: <199809081913.PAA01323@unready.megginson.com>
I've just added Silfide's SXP, Docuverse's HTML SDK, and JXML's Coins
to the SAX 1.0 applications page:
http://www.megginson.com/SAX/applications.html
I'm certain that I'm missing more -- could everyone who has released
SAX-based software take a glance at this page, and let me know if I
have missed you or if my information is out of date? (I'm not
including software that has been announced but not released.)
I have a feeling that this particular HTML page will soon become a
victim of SAX's success -- SAX 1.0 support is becoming so common that
it's hardly worth trying to list every piece of Java or Python
software that includes it.
Thanks, and all the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From donpark at quake.net Tue Sep 8 22:07:25 1998
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: More SAX Parsers and Applications?
Message-ID: <003001bddb62$eb8100e0$2ee044c6@arcot-main>
David,
It might be a Good Thing (tm by Tyler) to setup a SAX Service Directory
Server. This way, any SAX client can find the latest and the greatest SAX
parser over the Net.
Just a thought.
Don Park
Docuverse
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From tgt at lanl.gov Tue Sep 8 22:20:13 1998
From: tgt at lanl.gov (Thierry Thelliez)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:28 2004
Subject: XML and behavior description
References: <199809081913.PAA01323@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35F58F1C.B7B49233@lanl.gov>
Hello,
I need to find a solution to exchange complex definitions.
I have the following difficulties:
1- Dynamic behavior
These 'Entities' can have behavior as value of their attributes.
I guess I could do something like
and use %script where needed
but:
1-a- How can I define the language used ?
something like
...in an XML or XSL file, you can post-process the generated HTML file to
get back...
For many of us, this is more useful than having "x < 1" get transformed
to "x < 1".
Those that are interested can go to
http://www.massquantities.com/xml-kludges/ to download the scripts and get
instructions on how to use them.
If anyone knows of a better (read: not-so-hacked-up) way to do this, I'd
really like to hear about it.
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From crism at oreilly.com Wed Sep 9 07:24:43 1998
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for xt
In-Reply-To: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net> (message from Andrew
Bunner on Tue, 08 Sep 1998 18:27:03 -0700)
Message-ID: <199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
[Andrew Bunner]
> Some of you may have already found that you can't include <,>,&,'
> or " in the element content of an XSL or XML document and expect it
> to make it to a generated HTML file without getting escaped to <,
> etc.
The transformation part of XSL is intended to produce well-formed XML.
> If anyone knows of a better (read: not-so-hacked-up) way to do
> this, I'd really like to hear about it.
There won't be one. In XML, " and " and equivalent. This is
also true in HTML; if your browser doesn't accept x < 5 and x < 5
as equivalent, then the browser is broken. I appreciate that this is
not your fault and I sympathize, but if XSL attempts to include a
workaround for every existing HTML browser implementation, it will do
no one any good. Please stop referring to this as an XSL hack-up
instead of a broken-browser workaround, and suggesting that XSL has
grossly overlooked something because of this problem. Support for
pre-XML HTML was explicitly considered and rejected by the Working
Group.
-Chris, not speaking for the WG in any way
--
http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>
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From bunner at massquantities.com Wed Sep 9 08:14:03 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for IE and Netscape
In-Reply-To: <199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <199809090613.XAA28064@mail-gw6.pacbell.net>
>> Some of you may have already found that you can't include <,>,&,'
>> or ...
>The transformation part of XSL is intended to produce well-formed XML.
If that was the design then it's working exactly as planned. The
difference is, I'm approaching this from the stand point of how can I use
XSL now to simplify web design and you've probably got a longer term view.
By your (perfectly valid) definition, the major 4th generation browsers
are broken. I think we can both agree that they'll be in use for quite some
time, though. My goal is to produce files that are broken-browser-readable :)
>Please stop referring to this as an XSL hack-up
>instead of a broken-browser workaround, and suggesting that XSL has
>grossly overlooked something because of this problem.
I apologize if I sounded insulting--I was probably frustrated when I
wrote my last message. I meant to leave open the possibility that there
exists a good reason for this design decision.
I question the relative importance of insisting that generated documents
be well-formed. Perhaps I don't have a full understanding of what good
things come from this.
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From ahaeckel at io-software.com Wed Sep 9 09:45:49 1998
From: ahaeckel at io-software.com (Arne Haeckel)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: Fwd: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
In-Reply-To: <35F5583C.BD9070D4@finetuning.com>
Message-ID: <199809090750.JAA25178@miles.io-software.com>
Lisa Rein (Lisa Rein ) wrote:
> yes an xml-enabled javaservlet is the way to go! (in general :-)
>
> lisa
Why server centric? Peer to Peer would do for a 2 players game.
And a peer to peer XML based communicateion would show every
one, that XML could be light weight and does not necessarily need
expensive servers ;-)
My design would be: Java applet for a nice User Interface and input
validation, encoding of the new state in XML, transfering this XML
document to the other player, decoding the state and presenting
this again to the user with java applet. (There is still the question of
wire protocol: http, RMI, CORBA, socket, ...)
Arne
-----< iO >--------------------------------------------------------------
Interactive Objects Software GmbH
mailto:Arne.Haeckel@io-software.com
http://www.io-software.com
Basler Strasse. 63, D-79100 Freiburg, Germany
Tel: [+49]-761-40073-0, Fax: [+49]-761-40073-73
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Sep 9 09:48:07 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: More SAX Parsers and Applications?
Message-ID: <00d001bddbc6$28bfade0$e96118cb@caleb>
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Park
>It might be a Good Thing (tm by Tyler) to setup a SAX Service Directory
>Server. This way, any SAX client can find the latest and the greatest SAX
>parser over the Net.
This sort of thing is certainly the kind of thing I've been planning for
xmlsoftware.com and Lars might have been thinking of it too for his site.
James
--
James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com http://www.jtauber.com/
Lecturer and Associate Researcher
Electronic Commerce Network ( http://www.xmlinfo.com/
Curtin Business School ( http://www.xmlsoftware.com/
Perth, Western Australia ( http://www.schema.net/
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Sep 9 09:48:06 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: SAX Service Directory (was Re: More SAX Parsers and Applications?)
Message-ID: <00d101bddbc6$29c31420$e96118cb@caleb>
-----Original Message-----
From: David Megginson
>Don Park writes:
>
> > It might be a Good Thing (tm by Tyler) to setup a SAX Service
> > Directory Server. This way, any SAX client can find the latest and
> > the greatest SAX parser over the Net.
>
>It's a great idea, though it's not one that I have the time to take
>on. Anyone interested in giving it a shot?
Give me until the end of the week and there'll be something at:
http://www.xmlsoftware.com/sax/
(note that there's nothing there at the time of writing this)
James
--
James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com http://www.jtauber.com/
Lecturer and Associate Researcher
Electronic Commerce Network ( http://www.xmlinfo.com/
Curtin Business School ( http://www.xmlsoftware.com/
Perth, Western Australia ( http://www.schema.net/
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From ahaeckel at io-software.com Wed Sep 9 11:03:24 1998
From: ahaeckel at io-software.com (Arne Haeckel)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:29 2004
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
Message-ID: <199809090907.LAA25780@miles.io-software.com>
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Wed, 09 Sep 1998 09:56:43 +0100
To: "Arne Haeckel"
From: Peter Murray-Rust
Subject: Re: Proposal to XML-DEV: Collaborative XML
Thanks very much Arne - you have picked up exactly what I was getting at.
[Since I can't post to XML-DEV from where I am could you please forward
this reply?]
At 09:53 AM 9/9/98 +0200, Arne Haeckel wrote:
ARNE>Why server centric? Peer to Peer would do for a 2 players game.
>And a peer to peer XML based communicateion would show every
>one, that XML could be light weight and does not necessarily need
>expensive servers ;-)
This is the whole point. If we have a generic Peer to Peer system then the
work to be done on the server is minimal and one-off. [The example of chess
was simply to something that most people can relate to, but the more
exciting areas are domain-specific collaborative working.]
>
ARNE>My design would be: Java applet for a nice User Interface and input
validation,
Agreed.
ARNE>encoding of the new state in XML,
agreed.
ARNE>transfering this XML document to the other player,
agreed.
ARNE> decoding the state and presenting
>this again to the user with java applet. (There is still the question of
>wire protocol: http, RMI, CORBA, socket, ...)
This is my main point - I'm not experienced enough to know what the best
approach is. I am only looking for simple ones for proof of concept. I
expect http would do fine for a simple demo. What would be required?
[Personally I'd prefer to use Java applications simply because I haven't
yet got JUMBO2/Swing running in a browser in less than exponential time.] I
imagine they could be browser helper applications?
P.
-----< iO >--------------------------------------------------------------
Interactive Objects Software GmbH
mailto:Arne.Haeckel@io-software.com
http://www.io-software.com
Basler Strasse. 63, D-79100 Freiburg, Germany
Tel: [+49]-761-40073-0, Fax: [+49]-761-40073-73
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From david at megginson.com Wed Sep 9 12:18:06 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: HTML != XML (was Re: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for xt)
In-Reply-To: <199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
<199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
Message-ID: <199809091017.GAA00201@unready.megginson.com>
Chris Maden writes:
> Support for pre-XML HTML was explicitly considered and rejected by
> the Working Group.
Absolutely correct.
Since HTML <= 4.0 is *not* XML, it is best to treat it as an output
format, like PDF, TeX, RDF, Postscript, etc. -- in other words, first
produce your XML, then run it through a filter (such as a SAX-based
app) that does a down-translation to HTML syntax. If the XML document
contains the same element types as the HTML, the translation will be
very simple.
All the best,
David
--
David Megginson david@megginson.com
http://www.megginson.com/
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From mct at foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu Wed Sep 9 15:28:19 1998
From: mct at foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu (Mark Tucker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
Message-ID: <199809091312.IAA06775@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu>
I was shocked to hear that namespaces invalidate validation.
The problem seems to be that DTD validation does not expand
prefixes, nor does it apply namespace defaulting.
Can you all set me straight?
(Apologies in advance to two knowledgable people who gave me advice on
this subject in private. They unfortunately disagreed with each
other, and now I am at a loss.
I hope you'll tell me that namespaces (esp. namespace defaulting) can
live peacefully with DTD validation.
)
The problem arises if a document uses , with two different
content models. Suppose that in the "alpha" namespace, DATE contains
DAY and MONTH, while in the "beta" namespace, DATE has an attribute v.
Without namespaces, would be ambiguous. It would need to
satisfy two different content models.
====================: Validation works with consistent PREFIXES
With prefixes, you could say (with appropriate definitions of the ALPHA
and BETA prefixes)
-- This
10
Sept
The above would be valid, if only because a DTD processor could just
ignore the namespace, and treat the element name's as ALPHA:DATE and
BETA:DATE.
================: Validation fails with locally chosen prefixes
Now, suppose the DTD defines
xmlns:KAPPA="uri:alpha"
...
and the document that uses the "uri:alpha" dtd uses the prefix ALPHA
In this case the document would mention
MY QUESTION: Would a DTD processor figure out that KAPPA:DATE
and ALPHA:DATE are the same element, (since the expansions of KAPPA
and ALPHA are the same?
================: Validation dies when namespace defaults are used
And finally, DTD's seem to die completely if a document uses
namespace defaulting. The DTD validator will not even attempt
to think that the first refers to "uri:alpha"+DATE.
But with namespace defaulting
-- This is just DATE
10
Sept
-- This is also just DATE
a DTD processor would not figure out that
should be from the "beta" DTD,
and
-- This
10
Sept
should be checked against the "alpha" DTD.
MY QUESTION: Is there any hope that namespaces and DTD's
can get along?
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From peterj at wrox.com Wed Sep 9 15:56:27 1998
From: peterj at wrox.com (Peter Jones)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
Message-ID: <29AA5A0E3A0CD21196F300A0C9D8575C036070@WROX3>
Here's how I see it (but I'm no expert).
Namespaces and DTDs do get along, but only if the declarations of
element types in the DTD contain qualified names (prefix:elementname)
that match the names of namespaced elements in the doc entity.
e.g. (and I'm not sure of the syntax here...)
blah blah
But if you use two versions of qual:name in the doc then, even if you
define the namespace prefix to refer to a different URI in each case,
the process of validation will force both versions of qual:name to
conform to the same content model.
So basically, avoid duplicate prefixes for validation.
[For consideration of XML-DEV
I don't see why the URI for the namespace prefix could not refer to the
address of the DTD for the element concerned, for validation.]
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Tucker [SMTP:mct@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu]
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 2:13 PM
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
>
>
> I was shocked to hear that namespaces invalidate validation.
>
> The problem seems to be that DTD validation does not expand
> prefixes, nor does it apply namespace defaulting.
>
> Can you all set me straight?
>
>
>
> (Apologies in advance to two knowledgable people who gave me advice on
> this subject in private. They unfortunately disagreed with each
> other, and now I am at a loss.
>
> I hope you'll tell me that namespaces (esp. namespace defaulting) can
> live peacefully with DTD validation.
> )
>
> The problem arises if a document uses , with two different
> content models. Suppose that in the "alpha" namespace, DATE contains
> DAY and MONTH, while in the "beta" namespace, DATE has an attribute v.
> Without namespaces, would be ambiguous. It would need to
> satisfy two different content models.
>
> ====================: Validation works with consistent PREFIXES
>
> With prefixes, you could say (with appropriate definitions of the
> ALPHA
> and BETA prefixes)
>
>
>
> -- This
> 10
> Sept
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> The above would be valid, if only because a DTD processor could just
> ignore the namespace, and treat the element name's as ALPHA:DATE and
> BETA:DATE.
>
> ================: Validation fails with locally chosen prefixes
> Now, suppose the DTD defines
>
> xmlns:KAPPA="uri:alpha"
>
> ...
>
> and the document that uses the "uri:alpha" dtd uses the prefix ALPHA
>
> In this case the document would mention
>
>
>
> MY QUESTION: Would a DTD processor figure out that KAPPA:DATE
> and ALPHA:DATE are the same element, (since the expansions of KAPPA
> and ALPHA are the same?
>
> ================: Validation dies when namespace defaults are used
>
> And finally, DTD's seem to die completely if a document uses
> namespace defaulting. The DTD validator will not even attempt
> to think that the first refers to "uri:alpha"+DATE.
>
>
> But with namespace defaulting
>
>
> -- This is just DATE
> 10
> Sept
>
>
>
> -- This is also just DATE
>
>
>
> a DTD processor would not figure out that
> should be from the "beta" DTD,
> and
> -- This
> 10
> Sept
>
> should be checked against the "alpha" DTD.
>
>
> MY QUESTION: Is there any hope that namespaces and DTD's
> can get along?
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
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From jonathan at texcel.no Wed Sep 9 16:17:30 1998
From: jonathan at texcel.no (Jonathan Robie)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
In-Reply-To: <199809091312.IAA06775@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu>
Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19980909101703.02e11b30@pop.mindspring.com>
At 08:12 AM 9/9/98 -0500, Mark Tucker wrote:
>
>I was shocked to hear that namespaces invalidate validation.
Well, not quite. As long as you specify the prefix in both the DTD and the
document, you can still validate, since the prefix is basically treated as
part of the element name or attribute name.
>The problem seems to be that DTD validation does not expand
>prefixes, nor does it apply namespace defaulting.
I think we're hoping for the schema group to fix this for us. The DCD
proposal, for instance, provides namespace support. For now, though, I
think we're stuck with specifying the prefix in both the DTD and the document.
Jonathan
jonathan@texcel.no
Texcel Research
http://www.texcel.no
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From eddie.sheffield at enterworks.com Wed Sep 9 16:44:59 1998
From: eddie.sheffield at enterworks.com (Eddie Sheffield)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: HTML != XML (was Re: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for xt)
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
<199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com> <199809091017.GAA00201@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <35F693BC.7089E4AA@enterworks.com>
But it seems that the problem isn't the HTML, but rather with SCRIPTS that might
be included in the HTML. I believe that HTML defines the tags, but NOT the actual script that lies within
the tags. This is where the problem is. That script might be one of many
languages (javascript, jscript, vbscript, ecmascript, etc.) and knowing exactly
how to properly post-process the fine would be VERY non-trivial, especially if
the script itself has to generate HTML on the fly. For example:
What I want:
document.write("She said "Run away!"");
but the generated code is:
document.write("She said "Run away!"");
Obviously a post-processor can't simply replace EVERY " in the line, or the
script becomes invalid. But how do you know which to replace and which not? I
suppose you could parse the script and try replacing the ones that are necessary
for the script to be valid, but then you would need separate processors/parsers
for each type of script language that might be in the script.
As much as possible, a workaround would be to use external scripts that are never
processed at all, but are pointed to with the optional SRC attribute on the
SCRIPT tag. This only works for scripts that don't have to be dynamically
generated, though.
It does seem odd that with the advent of the DOM which really eases scripting and
makes it much more powerful that almost simultaneously problems occur that make
generating those scripts more difficult.
Eddie
David Megginson wrote:
> Chris Maden writes:
>
> > Support for pre-XML HTML was explicitly considered and rejected by
> > the Working Group.
>
> Absolutely correct.
>
> Since HTML <= 4.0 is *not* XML, it is best to treat it as an output
> format, like PDF, TeX, RDF, Postscript, etc. -- in other words, first
> produce your XML, then run it through a filter (such as a SAX-based
> app) that does a down-translation to HTML syntax. If the XML document
> contains the same element types as the HTML, the translation will be
> very simple.
>
> All the best,
>
> David
>
> --
> David Megginson david@megginson.com
> http://www.megginson.com/
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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From jamsden at us.ibm.com Wed Sep 9 17:28:49 1998
From: jamsden at us.ibm.com (Jim Amsden)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
Message-ID: <5040100022254857000002L072*@MHS>
The problem is that the namespace spec does not define the semantics of a name.
specifies that prefix D corresponds to namespace DAV:, but it does not say what
this means. Applications are free to treat the prefix and the namespace name in
any way they desire. So the above is NOT equivalent to
in any way. This isn't too surprising as DAV: and AV: are two different URIs
possibly representing two different namespaces But its not so obvious that this
one isn't equivalent either:
In this case, the local name for the elements are the same, as are their
namespaces. But the namespace spec says these are different elements having
different tag names. I think this is putting misplaced implied semantics on tag
name prefixes. The semantics should be on the local name and the namespace name
with the prefix being a notional convenience used to indicate the namespace
name. Then the prefix used in the DTD is independent of the ones used in any
document that is validated by it. This allows users to use whatever prefix they
need in order to avoid name collisions. If we're forced to use the same prefix
as defined in the DTD in order to validate documents, the namespace spec hasn't
changed anything. Names collisions will now happen because we can't use the
same prefix for more than one namespace.
Note that I'm not implying that tag names are the concatenation of the
namespace name and the local part of the tag name as specified by WebDAV
semantics, only that two elements with the same namespace name and local name
are treated as the same element type.
owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk on 09/09/98 09:27:29 AM
Please respond to mct@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
cc:
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
I was shocked to hear that namespaces invalidate validation.
The problem seems to be that DTD validation does not expand
prefixes, nor does it apply namespace defaulting.
Can you all set me straight?
(Apologies in advance to two knowledgable people who gave me advice on
this subject in private. They unfortunately disagreed with each
other, and now I am at a loss.
I hope you'll tell me that namespaces (esp. namespace defaulting) can
live peacefully with DTD validation.
)
The problem arises if a document uses , with two different
content models. Suppose that in the "alpha" namespace, DATE contains
DAY and MONTH, while in the "beta" namespace, DATE has an attribute v.
Without namespaces, would be ambiguous. It would need to
satisfy two different content models.
====================: Validation works with consistent PREFIXES
With prefixes, you could say (with appropriate definitions of the ALPHA
and BETA prefixes)
-- This
10
Sept
The above would be valid, if only because a DTD processor could just
ignore the namespace, and treat the element name's as ALPHA:DATE and
BETA:DATE.
================: Validation fails with locally chosen prefixes
Now, suppose the DTD defines
xmlns:KAPPA="uri:alpha"
...
and the document that uses the "uri:alpha" dtd uses the prefix ALPHA
In this case the document would mention
MY QUESTION: Would a DTD processor figure out that KAPPA:DATE
and ALPHA:DATE are the same element, (since the expansions of KAPPA
and ALPHA are the same?
================: Validation dies when namespace defaults are used
And finally, DTD's seem to die completely if a document uses
namespace defaulting. The DTD validator will not even attempt
to think that the first refers to "uri:alpha"+DATE.
But with namespace defaulting
-- This is just DATE
10
Sept
-- This is also just DATE
a DTD processor would not figure out that
should be from the "beta" DTD,
and
-- This
10
Sept
should be checked against the "alpha" DTD.
MY QUESTION: Is there any hope that namespaces and DTD's
can get along?
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
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From tgt at lanl.gov Wed Sep 9 18:38:07 1998
From: tgt at lanl.gov (Thierry Thelliez)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: XML graphical viewer
Message-ID: <35F6AC90.31270562@lanl.gov>
What is the best XML viewer available today ?
I am looking for a graphical view of the XML.
Thanks
Thierry
--
.....................................................................
. Thierry Thelliez Los Alamos National Laboratory .
. Email: tgt@lanl.gov CIC-15 .
. Voice: (505) 665 8631 MS M310 .
. Fax: (505) 665 5725 Los Alamos NM 87545 .
. URL: http://www.lanl.gov/cgi-bin/phone/113845 USA .
.....................................................................
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Sep 9 18:51:32 1998
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: External subset/external PE equivalence?
Message-ID: <35F6B194.1DF3DEB@locke.ccil.org>
Are these guaranteed to be the same?
and
%hitherto-unheard-of-param-entity;
]>
--
John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org
You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn.
You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn.
Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5)
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From bunner at massquantities.com Wed Sep 9 20:04:23 1998
From: bunner at massquantities.com (Andrew Bunner)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: HTML != XML (was Re: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for xt)
In-Reply-To: <35F693BC.7089E4AA@enterworks.com>
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
<199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
<199809091017.GAA00201@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID: <199809091804.LAA05055@mail-gw6.pacbell.net>
>It does seem odd that with the advent of the DOM which really eases
scripting and
>makes it much more powerful that almost simultaneously problems occur that
make
>generating those scripts more difficult.
Odd is on way to describe it, I would say "frustrating".
>> Since HTML <= 4.0 is *not* XML, it is best to treat it as an output
>> format, like PDF, TeX, RDF, Postscript, etc. -- in other words, first
>> produce your XML, then run it through a filter (such as a SAX-based
>> app) that does a down-translation to HTML syntax.
This doesn't have to be a very complicated animal. If I wanted to, I
could generate something that is ~almost~ HTML by doing things like
and . From there, a one line regular expression would make my
pages be readable by the major browsers. (Interesting aside, IE will
display the right thing if you close a stand-along tag with />, but
Netscape will not)
It sounds like the smart thing to do is write an XML to HTML converter as
you suggest.
The scripting workaround isn't as hard as it seems. You're example of...
document.write("She said "run"")
...would actually get turned into...
document.write("She said "run"")
So, if we just go through and replace all the predefined entities with
the literal characters they represent, the workaround works.
The fact that including a script in the generated file requires a
seperate utility will, I expect, become a non-trivial barrier to the
broader acceptance of XSL. I hope the working group chooses to address this
in their second draft.
Java Script engines are not easy things to
write. I think it's unlikely that developers are
going to redefine the Java Script language to interpret < as < ... my
opinion (hope) is that the standard should accomodate this.
-- Andrew
Andrew Bunner
President, Founder Mass Quantities, Inc.
Professional Supplements for the Perfect Physique
http://www.massquantities.com
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From mct at foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu Wed Sep 9 20:07:34 1998
From: mct at foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu (Mark Tucker)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Namespace Prefix should be Purely Convienience
Message-ID: <199809091752.MAA14874@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu>
Jim Amsden
jm> The semantics should be on the local name and the namespace name
jm> with the prefix being a notional convenience
I agree. The prefix should be "purely notational convenience."
Which makes me say: "Give us a way to write element tags with namespaces
but bypassing the prefix."
So, instead of
xmlns:FOO="someUniqueString"
we could just write
<"someUniqueString":FOO>
....
and be done with the problem of prefix collisions!
I wish Namespaces didn't try to be so helpful!
jm> Note that I'm not implying that tag names are the concatenation of the
jm> namespace name and the local part of the tag name as specified by
jm> WebDAV semantics, only that two elements with the same namespace name
jm> and local name are treated as the same element type.
If you say
"two elements with the same namespace name
and local name are treated as the same element type.",
isn't this saying that, operationally, the "effective ELEMENT tag name"
is the concatenation of the namespace string and the local tag name?
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From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed Sep 9 20:16:16 1998
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: Namespace Prefix should be Purely Convienience
Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F7038CA71C@RED-MSG-08>
The "effective element name" is illustrated in section 6.3 of the proposed
spec.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Tucker [mailto:mct@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 1998 10:52 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Namespace Prefix should be Purely Convienience
Jim Amsden
jm> The semantics should be on the local name and the namespace name
jm> with the prefix being a notional convenience
I agree. The prefix should be "purely notational convenience."
Which makes me say: "Give us a way to write element tags with namespaces
but bypassing the prefix."
So, instead of
xmlns:FOO="someUniqueString"
we could just write
<"someUniqueString":FOO>
....
and be done with the problem of prefix collisions!
I wish Namespaces didn't try to be so helpful!
jm> Note that I'm not implying that tag names are the concatenation of the
jm> namespace name and the local part of the tag name as specified by
jm> WebDAV semantics, only that two elements with the same namespace name
jm> and local name are treated as the same element type.
If you say
"two elements with the same namespace name
and local name are treated as the same element type.",
isn't this saying that, operationally, the "effective ELEMENT tag name"
is the concatenation of the namespace string and the local tag name?
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From david at megginson.com Wed Sep 9 20:28:55 1998
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:30 2004
Subject: HTML != XML (was Re: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for xt)
In-Reply-To: <199809091804.LAA05055@mail-gw6.pacbell.net>
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net>
<199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com>
<199809091017.GAA00201@unready.megginson.com>
<35F693BC.7089E4AA@enterworks.com>
<199809091804.LAA05055@mail-gw6.pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <199809091828.OAA02266@unready.megginson.com>
Andrew Bunner writes:
> Java Script engines are not easy things to
> write. I think it's unlikely that developers
> are going to redefine the Java Script language to interpret < as
> < ... my opinion (hope) is that the standard should accomodate
> this.
The problem is that the HTML 4.0 DTD defines the tags, but NOT the actual script that lies within
> the tags. This is where the problem is. That script might be one of many
> languages (javascript, jscript, vbscript, ecmascript, etc.) and knowing exactly
> how to properly post-process the fine would be VERY non-trivial, especially if
> the script itself has to generate HTML on the fly. For example:
>
> What I want:
>
> document.write("She said "Run away!"");
>
> but the generated code is:
>
> document.write("She said "Run away!"");
>
> Obviously a post-processor can't simply replace EVERY " in the line, or the
> script becomes invalid. But how do you know which to replace and which not? I
> suppose you could parse the script and try replacing the ones that are necessary
> for the script to be valid, but then you would need separate processors/parsers
> for each type of script language that might be in the script.
>
> As much as possible, a workaround would be to use external scripts that are never
> processed at all, but are pointed to with the optional SRC attribute on the
> SCRIPT tag. This only works for scripts that don't have to be dynamically
> generated, though.
>
> It does seem odd that with the advent of the DOM which really eases scripting and
> makes it much more powerful that almost simultaneously problems occur that make
> generating those scripts more difficult.
>
> Eddie
The approach I use for the XML Formatter I have is to have a boolean setting that can
be optionally set which will either auto-replace occurrences of entity values in
character data and attribute values with entity names (this includes character
entities) or else do none of this. Another alternative is to wrap any character data
that includes processed text that is read for output which includes entity references
in some special object that is essentially a flag saying do not process this stuff or
even normalize it. This is what I do now for CDATA Sections and this same technique
is pretty much what is used for the DOM so you can distinguish between text that can
be normalized and text that should not be normalized.
Maybe XT should have something like:
document.writeAsIs("");
which does not auto-replace instances of <, >, &, ", '.
Tyler
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From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu Thu Sep 10 02:27:15 1998
From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz III)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:31 2004
Subject: Are elements allowed to nest within themselves?
Message-ID: <199809100027.UAA24286@goon.stg.brown.edu>
Just for future reference, this sort of question is easily
answered by a validator. E.g., go to
http://www.stg.brown.edu/service/xmlvalid/
and paste in a brief document like the one you posted be-
fore (with a few bits of sugar to make it taste good to
the validator):
]>
this one
that one
the other one
Richard Goerwitz
Brown University
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From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu Sep 10 06:01:56 1998
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:31 2004
Subject: [ANN] Kludgey workarounds for IE and Netscape
Message-ID: <018801bddc6f$fc2055a0$e16118cb@caleb>
-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Dent
>The contrast with most of the tools I've looked at (and books I've read) is
>to an XSL community that appear concerned with transforming one set of XML
>to another. To be honest, I keep feeling there's something I've missed here
>- if the transformation is just generating more XML I don't see that
>containing enough information for a renderer.
That's what the formatting object vocabulary is all about. You transform
your XML into XML that expresses formatting objects and their properties. My
software FOP, is an example that takes formatting objects and generates a
PDF file. I am planning on also doing the same with Tk widgets for screen
display.
James
--
James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com http://www.jtauber.com/
Lecturer and Associate Researcher
Electronic Commerce Network ( http://www.xmlinfo.com/
Curtin Business School ( http://www.xmlsoftware.com/
Perth, Western Australia ( http://www.schema.net/
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From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Sep 10 08:25:38 1998
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jellife)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:31 2004
Subject: Shocking News: Namespaces and Non-Validation
References: <199809091312.IAA06775@foyt.indyrad.iupui.edu>
Message-ID: <35F7708D.72E0E594@allette.com.au>
Mark Tucker wrote:
> I was shocked to hear that namespaces invalidate validation.
This is only sort-of true.
> The problem seems to be that DTD validation does not expand
> prefixes, nor does it apply namespace defaulting.
DTD validation is completely namespace unaware. So no prefix expansion takes
place.Namespaces are a layer.
Namespace defaulting is superficially more disruptive to DTDs. It means that you
may indeed have two element types from different schemas which would (if you
used a single DTD to directly model them) have the same GI and content model.
Under these circumstances, the content model would tend to become ANY, of
course. But it is not really more disruptive: if you do not want to use
defaulting,
dont use it! Put a note in your products or documents saying "NO DEFAULTING"
and encourage people not to ue it.
At the moment, when you combine 2 DTDs, you have to rename element
types or combine content models. The namespace procedure does not alter this, so
even though it is superficially alarming, it is not much different from what
happens now.
Rick Jelliffe
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From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Sep 10 08:39:03 1998
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:31 2004
Subject: More SAX Parsers and Applications?
In-Reply-To: <00d001bddbc6$28bfade0$e96118cb@caleb>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19980910083559.00738398@ifi.uio.no>
* Don Park
>
>It might be a Good Thing (tm by Tyler) to setup a SAX Service Directory
>Server. This way, any SAX client can find the latest and the greatest SAX
>parser over the Net.
* James Tauber
>
>This sort of thing is certainly the kind of thing I've been planning for
>xmlsoftware.com and Lars might have been thinking of it too for his site.
I didn't, but it's certainly a good idea. I will be evaluating the OMG COS
Trader service shortly, and this looks like a possible way to make a real
evaluation of it. If an ORB becomes part of JDK 1.2 we may not even need
a lightweight alternative.
BTW: David, if you have problems keeping track of which products support
SAX you can look here:
I can make an index of the products that use it as well, if you think
that will be useful. I've got the information in my XML docs, I just
don't use it yet.
--Lars M.
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From tms at ansa.co.uk Thu Sep 10 12:13:47 1998
From: tms at ansa.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun 7 17:04:31 2004
Subject: HTML != XML
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "Wed, 9 Sep 1998 14:28:05 -0400"
References: <199809090121.SAA15093@mail-gw.pacbell.net> <199809090522.BAA11695@ruby.ora.com> <199809091017.GAA00201@unready.megginson.com> <35F693BC.7089E4AA@enterworks.com> <199809091804.LAA05055@mail-gw6.pacbell.net> <199809091828.OAA02266@unready.megginson.com>
Message-ID:
David> David Megginson
0> In article <199809091828.OAA02266@unready.megginson.com>, David
0> wrote:
David> The problem is that the HTML 4.0 DTD defines the