From martind at netfolder.com Sun Aug 1 00:50:04 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: Expressing XLink concepts in XML Schema In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Dan, On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Didier PH Martin wrote: > This is because some are stretching too much the utility of RDF. At its > origin, RDF has been designed as a metadata encoding tool. Dan said: And XML was designed for structured document interchange, but that's not stopped people having all sorts of unanticipated fun with it... (and can anyone remember what the Internet itself was originally for? ;-) It may well be that RDF is in some quarters being stretched beyond current capabilities. It certainly hasn't suffered the dangerous hype currently afflicting XML, and I personally hope it never does. Appeals to origins don't help much here: is better to argue on technical capabilities. There are certainly many things now missing from RDF which hinder our use of it for Web database-oriented applications. Data aggregation for example turns out to be difficult (even though URI-based graphs provide a solid foundation...) given the modest constraint mechanisms in the proposed Schema 1.0 system. Because we have no notion of cardinality/occurance in 1.0, aggregating overlapping data is hard without having hard-coded additional knowledge of the vocabualries/applicatiosn concerned. This has nothing to do with the origins of RDF, of XML, or of the Internet. It's just an interesting fact about what's currently feasible given the specs on the table. Didier says: Thanks to call for order ;-) a) When you say data aggregation, so that no confusion about what you mean is inserted in the message, what do you mean exactly? There is several ways to aggregate so I want to be sure I understand which one you are talking about. b) In rdf, because its intent is not for data base data exchange, there is a lack of relation notation between entities. In fact, there is no entity relationship in rdf except arcs to relate tuples (subject, property, value). So, it is more a property/value kind of stuff. A set of properties could be aggregated into classes. From these classes we can obtain instances. There is no actual capabilities to relate classes. Didier said: > a) rdf for metadata - to add information to existing resources > b) xlink for resource linkage - to link resources > > This said, we'll have more and more similarities because: > a) all these languages are XML based, > b) we start to see now some common sub languages used across different tools Dan said: No - the similarity it because RDF describes resources in terms of their relationships with other resources (conceptual and concrete) as well as ascribing simpler flat attributes to those resources. Didier says: It is because you have the capability to create a "record" or "group of properties". The problem then is to use the construct which semantically does not make too much sense in this context (db data exchange). So, what we need, is a schema language allowing us to define classes and properties (rdf schema language made some marks here), relations between classes (nothing yet). The rdf schema language has some interesting constructs to allow us to define classes and properties but nothing to define relation between classes. So, really what is interesting here for data exchange is not the relationship (i.e. the tuple) per se but the capability to create classes and then have instances of these classes and also to more formally describe properties contained in these classes. Now, what's missing is class relationship. To translate the object notation "class" into the relational DB world, we can translate "class" by table, property by "column" and finally instance by "row". By the way, it is possible to use the rdf schema language without using the rdf constructs like . The schema language could be used to define any domain specific language or more simply a DB exchange language. With such a schema, a good interpreter can do the job to understand the data encoded in the document. Dan said: Xlink allows for links to be expressed between document-like resources, and for those knowledge of those relationships to be stored outside the resources concerned. These are clearly overlapping pieces of the same larger puzzle. For my money the XArc proposal goes some way towards addressing potential overlaps here. Didier says: xlink is about linkage, period. Yes with some imagination I can use it for an other usage like, I would be using a pencil to write, as a pendulum, as a piece of wood, as a fire starter, etc... But its best usage is to be used to write :-) Didier said: > like for instance XPath and XPointer (re-united) and the string based > pointer language used in other XML based languages. > > James said: > Also between XML Schemas and RDF Schemas. > > Didier says: > Yes and this is good news because having a single schema language is more > intelligent than having to still live in the Babel tower. Dan said: I'd rather have a single data model and a family of schema languages built to a common approach... Didier says: What do you mean here? That having a lot of schema language is better than having one? This is actually the case anyway and this has been like that before xml. I don't see your point, we are talking here of the xml world. I would, for myself prefer to have a set of coherent specs. And for instance, a strong xml based schema language. To reduce complexity, probably a language divided into several modules so that we can use the module we need. This would be a more useful architecture and also, easier to learn for newbies. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 1 03:25:17 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: RDF **vs** XML??? In-Reply-To: References: <14243.2411.694437.258716@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14243.41115.617396.598573@localhost.localdomain> [offline] Didier PH Martin writes: > OK, I badly expressed myself. Let's state it differently. > a) Wasn't XML with the purpose of allow you to create domain > languages? Sure it is, but you don't always want to create them directly on top of XML; it's good to factor out common constructs into intermediate layers of abstraction, to simplify the application designers' work. > d) Was RDF originally intended for meta data? That was the initial motivation -- after all, the W3C isn't in the business of general data exchange. However, the spec editors realised that the distinction is arbitrary: The distinction between "data" and "metadata" is not an absolute one; it is a distinction created primarily by a particular application, and many times the same resource will be interpreted in both ways simultaneously. > Was then use a meta data domain language to encode data base records? You > could have encoded it with your own domain language. Yes, but then I lose the advantage of being able to use higher-level APIs to access the information. I could use UTF-8 without XML to encode my documents, but I like that fact that XML parsers do most of the work of building a tree out of a character stream; likewise, I like the fact that RDF processors do most of the work of building objects out of XML documents. > In fact, what is useful about rdf is not its elements but more its > schema part. When XML will have a schema language as good as the > rdf schema language or if both are united then I guess there is no > need to use rdf. That makes very little sense to me. Sure, a schema is interesting, but an abstracted data-object layer is what will save people time and expense in building XML systems for data interchange. > But the original intent of rdf is to add meta data information about > resources. This is why you have such construct: > > > > The elements intentionally have the "description about" keywords. rdf:Description is one particular class; RDF allows the creation of new classes as well. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 1 03:59:08 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: RDF **vs** XML??? In-Reply-To: <14243.41115.617396.598573@localhost.localdomain> References: <14243.2411.694437.258716@localhost.localdomain> <14243.41115.617396.598573@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14243.43565.316959.308138@localhost.localdomain> David Megginson writes: > [offline] ^^^^^^^^^ OK, well, not really -- at least I didn't say anything embarrasing. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Aug 3 13:02:08 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: RDF **vs** XML??? References: <14243.2411.694437.258716@localhost.localdomain> <14243.41115.617396.598573@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37A440B0.D2380D08@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Yes, but then I lose the advantage of being able to use higher-level > APIs to access the information. I could use UTF-8 without XML to > encode my documents, but I like that fact that XML parsers do most of > the work of building a tree out of a character stream; likewise, I > like the fact that RDF processors do most of the work of building > objects out of XML documents. #1. What RDF processor are you using? #2. What exactly does it do for you? Most people seem to be using hand-rolled processors for a particular RDF language. I think that's where the confusion arises. You could have also used a processor for a particular "ordinary XML" language and skipped the RDF step. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco If you spend any time administering Windows NT, you're far too familiar with the Blue Screen of Death (BSOD) which displays the cause of the crash and gives some information about the state of the system when it crashed. -- "Microsoft Developer Network Magazine" xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tom at DataChannel.com Tue Aug 3 13:22:30 1999 From: tom at DataChannel.com (Tom McCann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel X JP Message-ID: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B60237C3571@ZEUS> Sorry for the delay in responding. Here's the response from the developer: For things like < fubar > , the parser is handling the entity reference nodes correctly. When preserveWhitespace is on, the 2nd (childNodes.item(1)) and 5th (childNodes.item(4)) child nodes of elements1 are entityRef nodes. Their nodeValue are "<" and ">", respectively. I found a bug while testing this. The parser does not reset the whitespace buffer correctly. The 3rd child node of element1 is a TEXT node with a nodeValue of a single space. This node should not have been there. My guess is that this user did not get the child item number correctly. The bug that I just found out created an extra TEXT node which could be confusing. HTH Tom McCann Director of Engineering DataChannel Inc. http://www.datachannel.com/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Vance Christiaanse [mailto:vance@textwise.com] > Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 12:19 PM > To: Erik James Freed > Cc: Xml-Dev; Keith Swenson > Subject: Re: Preserving white space and entity references in > DataChannel > XJP > > > Step 1: > > > Erik James Freed wrote: > > > > > > I am experiencing some strange behavior with the datachannel XML > > > parser package (the most recent one). > > > In my reading of the DOM spec, this is not appropriate > behavior, but > > > perhaps I am missing something. > > > > > > The behavior is that when I do a > 'setPreserveWhiteSpace(true)' before > > > parsing a document, and the document > > > contains strings with entity references such as: > > > > > > < fubar > > > > > > > when I then do a getText() on element1, what is returned is a > > > java.lang.String that contains a null (char 0) for each entity > > > reference. > > > > > > These nulls of course confound the rest of the code I am > writing. In > > > side the DOM tree the entity reference objects are > happily holding the > > > appropriate text representation i.e. '<' and '>'. > > > > > > Turning off white space preservation makes the getText() place > > > appropriate decoded entity references in the resulting string. > > > > > > Bug or feature? > > Step 2: > I wrote: > > I don't see a setPreserveWhiteSpace(...) method or > preserveWhiteSpace > > class or instance variable in the DOM spec and I don't see > getText() or > > a text variable either. The answer to "bug or feature" > would be up to > > the > > > > > datachannel XML parser package > > Step 3: > Eric wrote > > Vance, > > > > Yes indeed this is not a pure DOM/XML issue, however the DC > extension does > > purport to > > adhere to standard XML concepts. > > > > The following is from the datachannel documentation on the > > PreserveWhiteSpace parameter: > > > > "As per the XML Language Specification, this > specifies the white space > > handling for the application; that is, the default > white space handling to > > apply when xml:space="default". If preserveWhiteSpace > is true, all white > > space will be preserved regardless of the setting > of any xml:space > > attributes in the document. The white space will be > preserved by additional > > text nodes being present in the tree. If > preserveWhiteSpace is false, then > > the values of the xml:space attribute specified in the > document will > > determine whether white space is preserved or not. " > > > > So with that clarification is this a bug or a feature? > > Step 4: > I don't know, unfortunately. I've been studying the DOM and I just > wanted to clarify its boundaries. Hopefully someone familiar with the > DataChannel XML parser package will answer! > > Vance > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue Aug 3 13:36:26 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:11 2004 Subject: XML specs in XML. References: <006001bedaf6$fe18ca00$32d5d6cf@g0f2n0> Message-ID: <37A6D500.B4DD797D@mitre.org> Hi Folks, Can an entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? For example, ]> &boo; Note that the entity, boo, has in its replacement test a reference to an entity, foo. Is this legal? (Seems like it should be since the replacement text is "parseable".) I imagine the above XML to expand to: it is a foomeister If this is legal, what XML parsers support it? IE5 doesn't seem to. /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue Aug 3 13:39:46 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: Entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? References: <006001bedaf6$fe18ca00$32d5d6cf@g0f2n0> <37A6D500.B4DD797D@mitre.org> Message-ID: <37A6D5C7.208406F0@mitre.org> (Sorry, I screwed up on the Subject line in my last message. Now it is correct.) Hi Folks, Can an entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? For example, ]> &boo; Note that the entity, boo, has in its replacement test a reference to an entity, foo. Is this legal? (Seems like it should be since the replacement text is "parseable".) I imagine the above XML to expand to: it is a foomeister If this is legal, what XML parsers support it? IE5 doesn't seem to. /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Aug 3 13:47:06 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes Message-ID: <006601bedc35$bc0368b0$59f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: James Robertson >At 01:44 31/07/1999 , David Megginson wrote: >>RDF is a general format for serializing entities and their >>relationships -- sure it's useful for metadata, but it's main use (I >>think) is as a more abstract layer on top of XML for exchanging >>objects. > >Wouldn't a validatable format with a DTD >be more useful for storing data? > >ie. plain vanilla XML? RDF allows us to make the implicit relationships in vanilla XML explicit. This enables may enable explicit RDF tools and provides a discipline or framework for data modeling. If you look at many RDF files (RPM for example) it is easy to think "so what...this does not have any type of information that we have not been doing (e.g., in SGML) for years!" With XML we standardizing a syntax (and information set): but that gave us no extra ability to model new kinds of data; it has allowed generic tools, more synergistic uncordinated development, and focussed attention away from peripheral implementation desicions. RDF may be the same: the benefit is largely in the agreement and the explicitness rather than in novelty. >Otherwise, aren't we advocating abandoning XML for a >another format? One that loses the ability to be >verified, except with the use of custom-written software. I don't see that using RDF (serialized in XML) prevents verification. My RDF DTD can be trivially augmented to allow particular DTDs, for example (http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/schemas.html) Verification is a tricky work, anyway. >In other words, if RDF is intended for storage of data, >what's XML for? The approach I have been suggesting here is this: 1) make DTD/schemas that give you as specific markup as possible, consonant with all your constraints; 2) treat RDF as just another possible output formats. Also there is the secret step: 3) make sure that your specific DTD/schema has enough detail to allow generation of RDF as and when you need it. For some kinds of flatter data, you may find it more convenient to use RDF directly. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Aug 3 13:56:19 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: Entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? In-Reply-To: Roger L. Costello's message of Tue, 03 Aug 1999 07:43:03 -0400 Message-ID: <199908031158.MAA06711@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > Can an entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? Yes. > > This has the result you expect. It's worth noting just how this works. The reference to foo is *not* expanded at the time boo is defined, but gets expanded after boo itself is expanded in the body of the document. So there is no requirement for foo to be defined before boo. Character entities on the other hand *are* expanded at definition time, which is why the definition of amp (see earlier discussion) needs "double escaping". > If this is legal, what XML parsers support it? I would have guessed "all of them", if you hadn't said IE5 doesn't. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Tue Aug 3 14:01:40 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: encoding problem fixed In-Reply-To: <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org> References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: At 10:59 AM -0400 7/30/99, John Cowan wrote: >James Tauber wrote: > >> In other words, rather than creating an InputSource using a FileReader, I >> used James Clark's "fileInputSource" method in XT to make a URL out of a >> file and create the InputSource from the URL string. > >Yes, indeed. You should never use a Reader of any sort when processing >XML (unless you have a non-standard Reader class that understands the >XML declaration). Always use an InputSource so that the parser can >install its own bytes-to-chars converter based on the declaration. > It's possible to start with an InputStream to read the XML declaration, then chain that InputStream to an InputStreamReader once the encoding is known and never use the InputStream directly again. Since the XML declaration is ASCII (possibvly aside from a byte order mark) this isn't all that difficult to implement. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Aug 3 14:02:02 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: <000301bedc1e$8407b5e0$59f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Mark Birbeck >In previous discussions on DTDs versus XML approaches to schemas I have >argued that this ability to dynamically generate only enough of the >schema as you need, (and the ability to cope with namespaces, which I >haven't covered here) is my major reason for preferring XML schemas over >DTDs > >Does this confuse or clarify the point, Rick? :-) On the other hand: * Whether a schema is in one place or many places, you still need to download all of it if your document has all of those elements; * Under your system, all possible child element types are downloaded. If your document starts at the root, you will download all the schema anyway. * XML Namespaces raises the possibility that elements from different namespace can have content models that essentially are the same, but which require separate schemas: for example, one schema uses HTML 4 strict paragraphs and another schema uses HTML transitional, or whatever. I think it is important to have a commonly accepted basic vocabulary to prevent this: HTML is a good start, but it is not managable under any schema proposal I have seen yet. So your system relies on each individual schema being small, so that no fluff gets sent, and that people use well-known content models rather than make their own. In any case, I do not see why your system does not apply equally to DTDs: what difference does the syntax make? It seems to me that some amount of the "you cannot do this with DTDs" argument would vanish if we bothered to define a DOM for DTDs, with XML Schemas a transformation and serialization of that DOM. When the W3C spec-makers say "you cannot do this with DTDs" that only would require a DOM mapping to be specified, they are really saying "you cannot do this with W3C specifications" not because of the intrinsic capabilities of DTDs syntax. A little misleading. Downloading branches of trees does not look either syntax- dependent or semantics dependent: you don't need instance syntax or XML Schema semantics. You just need a tree API (e.g. DOM) and a serializer in whatever syntax. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 3 14:04:26 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: XMLNews-Meta and XMLNews-Story In-Reply-To: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70AD@laposte.timberline.com> References: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70AD@laposte.timberline.com> Message-ID: <14244.40749.31895.1889@localhost.localdomain> yimin zhu writes: > I have been reading through the documentation of XMLNews-Meta and > XMLNews-Story and it seems to me that XMLNews-Meat is a superset of > XMLNews-Story (which is implied in the documentation). However, > when I read the XMLNews-Story specifications I didn't see any > connections with XMLNews-Meta. I am confused about what is going > on. Can anybody help me out? As of yet, unspecified; it didn't seem to make sense to invent a proprietary scheme for this when we'll have XLink, etc., before long. It will be interesting to hear what the XMLNews members have to say, but input is welcome from anywhere. In current implementations, the system just magically knows how to associate the two; that works for now, but better interoperability will be nice. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk Tue Aug 3 14:15:00 1999 From: mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk (Giorgos Kaltekis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:12 2004 Subject: XML-data for defining schemas Message-ID: <001801bedca4$611a1880$19a95882@gp.umist.ac.uk> I am trying to write my own schemas using the Xml-data schema provided by Microsoft. I use the following lines to refer to the XML-data. When I try to use the validation feature, for example put a string to an element whose type has been declared as an int, I cannot see an error from IE5. Shouldn't I? So, I feel that my schema cannot use the features of the XML-data of Microsoft. HAS ANYBODY USED MICROSOFT'S XML-DATA WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM? If so, HOW? I would be very glad to hear some opinions, because I am working on my project for the university and it is very urgent to know whether or not I can use the XML-data technology is writing schemas. Cheers, George -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990803/ee1d23b0/attachment.htm From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 14:22:58 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: OASIS XML Tests Message-ID: <37A4EE4F.B40F71C2@pacbell.net> I don't think I remember seeing this get mentioned yet on the XML-DEV list ... although some of the key components have certainly gotten mentioned, the integrated set hasn't. This consists of test cases (including ones from James Clark, Makato Murata, and myself) as well as test documentation and a framework for those tests (heavy contributions from myself and from NIST). Since the OASIS group only released this on 12 July, it's perhaps appropriate to see some results get reported! I'll probably send some along at some point. - Dave -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: Testing a Parser Date: 31 Jul 1999 08:36:13 +0200 From: Lars Marius Garshol Organization: Dept. of Informatics, Univ. of Oslo, Norway Newsgroups: comp.text.xml References: <7nt6b5$k0c$1@news5.svr.pol.co.uk> * Ben Pickering | | Can anyone give me directions to a suitably complex document for | testing purposes? I've done my best from the W3C XML specification | document, but there's no substitute for 'real life' document | testing. Even better would be getting this set of test documents: --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de Tue Aug 3 14:22:26 1999 From: shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de (Robb Shecter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: Returning exceptions in XML-based messaging Message-ID: <37A57EC8.A12E266C@darmstadt.gmd.de> Hi, Has anyone else been looking into ways of doing this, or taxonomy of what's possible? This is the last remaining puzzle-piece of an XML-based bus service I'm building. Clients and servers exchange xml instances with each other, and interact with the bus in a very OO style. I'd like to keep an OO style of programming, and support exceptions thrown by servers for reasons specific to applications. So, I'm looking at ways of sending this out-of-band information that an error has occurred. I want to keep the programming style natural for client and server developers, use XML, and not force exceptions thrown by client proxies to be overly general. Sorry if this description is too abstract - I thought I'd keep my post short the first time around. :) Thanks, Robb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricker at xmls.com Tue Aug 3 14:38:50 1999 From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: Announcement: Exeter XML Server Message-ID: <199908021957.PAA28406@mail.his.com> XML Developers, The beta release of the XMLSolutions' Exeter XML Server is available for evaluation. http://www.xmls.com/software/exeter/xmlserver/ Currently, Solaris 2.5.1 binary is available, with Windows NT, Linux and AIX following soon. If you have any questions or feedback, please direct them to exeter@xmls.com. Jeffrey Ricker XMLSolutions Corp. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Tue Aug 3 14:42:04 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: Announce: Revised XSLT/XPath Tutorial Materials Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990802212010.00a6ac10@CraneSoftwrights.com> Announce: Revised XSLT/XPath Tutorial Materials Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath (XSL Transformations and the XML Path Language) Fourth Edition - 1999-08-02 - ISBN 1-894049-01-2 Copyright (C) 1999 Crane Softwrights Ltd. New in the Fourth Edition: (1) - a title change to reflect the change in W3C recommendations - for customer update purposes, this is considered a revision to the publication "Introduction to XSLT" (Third Edition) (2) - all constructs of 19990709 XSLT and XPath are documented (3) - the free download preview has been enhanced with: - a graphical depiction of axes - documentation for XT NXML (non-XML) semantics and syntax - a proposed list of questions to ask vendors regarding XSLT product functions and features - still included in the free download preview: - the full text of the first two and last two modules to give an overview of the writing style and access to the summary information for the drafts and some tools (XT and IE5) - the lesson summary and overview pages for every other module As with our other editions of this XSLT training material, the purchase of any edition of this publication entitles the customer to any future edition of the same title (or in this case when the same subject material gets a new name from the W3C, with the revised title). Information can be obtained from the link below to the "Commercial Training Materials" section the Crane web site. .............. Ken p.s. Attention existing customers: You all should have received your update notice by now. If not, please forward a copy of your receipt in order to obtain the latest username/password for download. cc: XSL List XML-DEV XML-L XML-EDI comp.text.xml microsoft.public.xml -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath ISBN 1-894049-01-2 Next instructor-led training: MS'99 1999-08-16 MT'99 1999-12-05/06 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From yiminz at timberline.com Tue Aug 3 14:42:28 1999 From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML-data schema tools Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70D3@laposte.timberline.com> Does anybody know any tools for developing XML-data schema? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Aug 3 14:53:27 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML-data schema tools In-Reply-To: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70D3@laposte.timberlin e.com> Message-ID: <199908031255.IAA02245@hesketh.net> At 11:29 AM 8/2/99 -0700, yimin zhu wrote: >Does anybody know any tools for developing XML-data schema? If I remember right, Extensibility's _XML Authority_ can export XML-Data, as well as DTDs, DDML, DCD, and SOX. It's reasonably cheap (miraculously cheap for a non-free product in this environment), supports data typing, and is pretty friendly. See http://www.extensibility.com for more information. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From reschke at medicaldataservice.de Tue Aug 3 15:14:51 1999 From: reschke at medicaldataservice.de (Julian Reschke) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML-data for defining schemas In-Reply-To: <001801bedca4$611a1880$19a95882@gp.umist.ac.uk> Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Giorgos Kaltekis Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 7:04 AM To: xml-dev Subject: XML-data for defining schemas Importance: High I am trying to write my own schemas using the Xml-data schema provided by Microsoft. I use the following lines to refer to the XML-data. When I try to use the validation feature, for example put a string to an element whose type has been declared as an int, I cannot see an error from IE5. Shouldn't I? No. Validation is switched off when loading an XML document into IE5. You need to create the parser object, set "validateOnParse" to TRUE and then load the document to get the validation working. And this actually only works for document.load, not for document.loadXML. So, I feel that my schema cannot use the features of the XML-data of Microsoft. HAS ANYBODY USED MICROSOFT'S XML-DATA WITHOUT ANY PROBLEM? Yes, see above. If so, HOW? I would be very glad to hear some opinions, because I am working on my project for the university and it is very urgent to know whether or not I can use the XML-data technology is writing schemas. Yes, you can, it's just not as easy as it might be. For instance you can use Microsoft's XML notepad and configure it to "validateOnParse". You will then get the validation error you are looking for when loading a document... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990803/38cab3bd/attachment.htm From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Aug 3 15:35:15 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: URIs in XML canonical forms Message-ID: <17860.199908031337@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Sun's definition of "second XML canonical form" in the Oasis conformance tests refers to the "shortest such relative URI". Is that shortest in terms of characters? Or bytes? Is it measured before or after escaping non-ascii characters? Is it meant that include the use of ".."? If so, then determing the shortest URI is somewhat non-obvious. For example, if the input document is http://sun.com/a/b/c/doc.xml and it refers to http://sun.com/a/b/z then the shortest relative URI is "../z", but if the input document is http://sun.com/a/b/c/d/doc.xml then the shortest relative URI is "/a/b/z" (rather than "../../z") -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Tue Aug 3 15:46:34 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: BUG with XMLproject on win NT/JDK1.1.x : Referencing an external entity doesn't work if working with URL Message-ID: subject: BUG with XMLproject on win NT/JDK1.1.x : Referencing an external entity doesn't work if working with URL. Hello, I've just submitted the bug to Sun Bug parade. Can someone have a look and check if it's one ? Reproducing the bug is really easy and is explained above. Thank BUG DESCRIPTION ---------------------------------------------------------- Only on Windows NT and JDK1.1.x (no bug on Windows NT/JDK1.2.x or linux/jdk1.1.7 and Solaris/jdk1.1.6). If a Xml document references an external entity in its DTD, and if this Xml document is loaded into memory through an URL, then the parser won't resolve the correct URI to locate the external file that contains the external entity. REPRODUCING THE BUG ----------------------------------------------------------- To reproduce the bug, it's easy. All you need is : - Windows NT - any Jdk 1.1.x (for instance 1.1.8 from sun, installed at the location d:\java\jdk1.1.8) - XML projects TR2 (installed at the location d:\java\xml-tr2 in our case) Go in the 'simple' example of XML project (path : d:\java\xml-tr2\examples\simple). In the file 'main.java', replace the line 55 input = Resolver.createInputSource (new File (argv [0])); with the following : input = Resolver.createInputSource (new java.net.URL(argv[0]), false); Add the file 'doc.xml' in the 'simple' directory with the following lines : &entity_tag; Add the file 'entity.dtd' in the 'simple' directory with the following line : "> Add the file build2.bat in the 'simple' directory with the following content : set JAVA_HOME=d:\java\jdk1.1.8 set XML_DOC=file:/d:\java\xml-tr2\examples\simple\doc.xml %JAVA_HOME%\bin\javac -classpath ..\..\xml.jar;% JAVA_HOME% \lib\classes.zip main.java %JAVA_HOME%\bin\java -classpath .;..\..\xml.jar;%JAVA_HOME% \lib\classes.zip main %XML_DOC% Then launch 'build2.bat', you'll suppose to get the output : java.io.FileNotFoundException: \entity.dtd at java.io.FileInputStream.(FileInputStream.java:56) at sun.net.www.protocol.file.FileURLConnection.connect(Compiled Code) at sun.net.www.protocol.file.FileURLConnection.getInputStream(FileURLCon nection.java:162) at com.sun.xml.parser.Resolver.resolveEntity(Resolver.java:340) at com.sun.xml.parser.ExternalEntity.getInputSource(ExternalEntity.java: 46) at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.pushReader(Parser.java:2748) at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.externalParameterEntity(Compiled Code) at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.maybeDoctypeDecl(Compiled Code) at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parseInternal(Compiled Code) at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.parse(Parser.java:283) at com.sun.xml.tree.XmlDocument.createXmlDocument(XmlDocument.java:225) at main.main(main.java:60) OTHER ENVIRONMENTS ---------------------------------------------------- In Windows NT and JDK1.2.x, the simple works fine and the output is : In Solaris with wathever JDK (1.1.x or 1.2.x) everything is fine. In Linux, same as solaris. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david.lindholm at appeal.se Tue Aug 3 15:53:04 1999 From: david.lindholm at appeal.se (David Lindholm) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: Entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? References: <199908031158.MAA06711@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37A6F619.947D2DB6@appeal.se> Hi! > > Can an entity's replacement text contain an entity reference? > > Yes. > > > > > > > This has the result you expect. > > > If this is legal, what XML parsers support it? > > I would have guessed "all of them", if you hadn't said IE5 doesn't. I have no problem with this on my IE5, it works as expected. -David xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 17:24:32 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: URIs in XML canonical forms References: <17860.199908031337@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37A70A3A.E12FC57C@pacbell.net> Richard Tobin wrote: > > Sun's definition of "second XML canonical form" in the Oasis > conformance tests refers to the "shortest such relative URI". Is that > shortest in terms of characters? Or bytes? Is it measured before or > after escaping non-ascii characters? If it's done correctly and consistently, I don't see how answers to those three questions could change anything. Re "..", it would. > Is it meant that include the use > of ".."? If so, then determing the shortest URI is somewhat > non-obvious. It's good, in fact, that current test cases don't need to rely on any of the trickier bits of semantics for URI handling. The wording was imperfect, in any case -- it should only apply to the case of URIs which originally appeared as relative URIs. Which still leaves the issue you noted (and implied in that writeup -- "if possible"), and another issue of how to detect such cases with standard APIs, like SAX (which doesn't expose the relative URIs). For context: the reason this is there is that otherwise you can't turn all NOTATION (and later, unparsed ENTITY) declarations into a single "canonical" form which can be compared, to verify conformance of an XML processor with its specification. The same document and external entities, when parsed from different locations, mustn't produce different "canonical" outputs, else it's not "canonical"! I'd love to see that issue treated better, but the core issue may be that documents using relative URIs with NOTATION and unparsed ENTITY declarations can't always be be canonicalized in a way that supports XML processor conformance testing for those features. Perhaps such inputs should instead be rejected; in effect, that's been done by the selection of the input documents for such testing. (For a bit of history -- this work predates the W3C group now talking about canonicalization, which should have seen this writeup as it was getting formed.) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 17:38:28 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: encoding problem fixed References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <37A70D67.3372399C@pacbell.net> Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > > It's possible to start with an InputStream to read the XML declaration, > then chain that InputStream to an InputStreamReader once the encoding is > known and never use the InputStream directly again. Since the XML > declaration is ASCII (possibvly aside from a byte order mark) this isn't > all that difficult to implement. Make that a a "PushbackInputStream" ... remember that XML (and text) declarations are optional, and if you're not tying to the parser's prolog logic, you'll need to feed it a stream of characters. Consider a document starting "" where instead of "t" you've got a multibyte UTF-8 encoded name. Without some pushback there, you're likely in severe trouble unless you handle the UTF-8 directly ... that "ASCII only" assumption can fail _very_ quickly. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 17:44:43 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: encoding problem fixed References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <00b401bedab0$5982dbc0$3a196520@brownell.org> <37A1E812.C8B75B4B@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37A70EDF.718801BC@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > > As I noted elsewhere, a better guideline is always to pass a URI to > > the InputSource, and only use I/O streams (Reader or InputStream) > > with exquisite care. Reader in the case of data whose encoding is > > externally tagged (e.g. MIME entities or database contents); and if > > the encoding isn't externally recorded, _only then_ use InputStream. > > Note that SAX lets you pass an InputStream and a media type together; > this is useful if you know the type and don't have an URI. This may > be more efficient than instantiating your own InputStreamReader, > depending on the parser. You passed the quiz ... "what oft-overlooked SAX feature did Dave omit, to have the Right Thing sound so simple?" :-) Though you should have said "character encoding", not "media type". - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 17:52:31 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: encoding problem fixed References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org> <009e01bedaaf$7dbe2d60$3a196520@brownell.org> <37A1E761.B9CB293B@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37A710BF.319E0208@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > > Actually, that's not correct either. My general advice is to pass a > > URI to the parser -- which is required to do the correct thing! -- and > > in those rare cases that can't be done ... Minor apology -- I meant to say "not _quite_ correct"! That case of externally typed data (e.g. from web servers) is too often forgotten. > This leads to an interesting question: what do various XML parsers > do when fetching http: URIs that produce explicit charset declarations? Sun's parses the "application/xml;charset=GB2312" style declarations directly. The last I looked, not many processors handled the MIME and XML/MIME RFCs correctly. (That is, it remains really good advice to ALWAYS put XML or text declarations at the beginning of your documents... even in the many cases you shouldn't need to do so.) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 3 18:14:53 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: OASIS XML Tests References: <37A4EE4F.B40F71C2@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37A71616.14550794@pacbell.net> Note that the 12-July draft has a couple issues with the relative URIs accessed through "xmlconf.xml"; briefly, most of the files named in entities there need to be one level up in the tree before those relative URIs on the TEST elements (for each test case) can be used by a test driver. And for anyone wanting to try to use these test cases, I've released an alpha (!!) of a test driver that uses SAX (1.0 or 2.0 alpha) to put Java parsers through their paces and generate a report. No output tests yet, but it'll be useful for anyone wanting to evaluate parsers: http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ Top conformance is from Sun's parsers and from XP; I'm suspecting most of the XP failures are test driver bugs. - Dave David Brownell wrote: > > ... > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 3 18:27:28 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: encoding problem fixed References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <00b401bedab0$5982dbc0$3a196520@brownell.org> <37A1E812.C8B75B4B@locke.ccil.org> <37A70EDF.718801BC@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37A718E4.1729D4CF@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > > Note that SAX lets you pass an InputStream and a media type together; > > this is useful if you know the type and don't have an URI. This may > > be more efficient than instantiating your own InputStreamReader, > > depending on the parser. > > You passed the quiz ... "what oft-overlooked SAX feature did Dave > omit, to have the Right Thing sound so simple?" :-) > > Though you should have said "character encoding", not "media type". Oops, yes. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge / Politzer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Tue Aug 3 19:59:58 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: Rick, I think much of what you say is true, but I remain a bigger fan of XML schemas than you obviously are! First on some of your specific points: - True, if you have a large document, you have to send a large schema. However, I was responding to the point about 1k doc's and 100k schemas and saying this was unnecessary, so don't shift the goal-posts. Now to more general points. My argument is based on a recognition that what elements of a schema I need depends on what is the purpose of the XML document to which the schema refers. For example, if I have two servers that sit all night passing data to each other, the purpose of the schema is simply to validate the integrity of the data passed. If one server sends: 123 56 why bother sending more schema info than the name of the root document and the two children that it has? Even if the node statusReport can have more children, why bother passing them in the schema? (My system doesn't yet do this, though.) If the next report is: 123 56 then the receiving server doesn't even need to ask for the schema again. On the other hand, if I have an editor that allows me to receive a large XML document and modify it, then I need to know what children can be added at various points in the tree. These children may not yet exist in the receiving document, so you would appear to need - as you say - the entire schema. However, even then it is not so obvious you need all the schema. I am working on a system that allows the editor to again request only the parts of the schema it needs. Grand-children of the node the user is currently examining are actually depicted with XLinks since we don't need to know what they are exactly if the user doesn't go there. For example, if a user edits invoice data in a tree view, but doesn't open the nodes for the customer information such as address, then do we need to bother retrieving the schema information for the address? With the XLink we can get it when we need it. So, my vision is of systems that pass parts of schemas to each other as they need them. My argument is simply that this is a lot easier to do in XML (I never said it couldn't be done with DTDs, as you seem to think), since we are already writing systems that handle the distribution, archiving, searching, editing and so on, of XML. For this same reason, I must say I am surprised that fans of XML can be looking to use non-XML syntaxes to define any type of data, unless totally unavoidable/impractical. I didn't understand your point about HTML 4, but all I can say is that different schema for different parts of the document seems best solved by linking the schema to namespaces. The solution used in IE5 - where the namespace definition can be used to point to a schema for that node - allows documents to effectively contain other documents. DTDs as they stand cannot do this - although that is not to say that someone won't propose some mess with processing instructions to 'switch schema' at various stages in a document - and adding a DOM definition won't help. (I don't know if I said this before, but I remember one of the biggest confusions with namespaces, when that debate raged on here, was that there was no validation going on. People kept thinking that there needed to be a document at the end of a namespace URI, and that it would be used to validate. Even though they were wrong, they thought that because it has a nice intuitive feel to it.) Finally, no-one has come back on my point from previous emails, that if you want to be able to index and manipulate the massive amount of XML data that will exist in coming years, often using non-standard schemas, you will need to be able to manipulate the meta-meta-data. And what better tool to use to define this than good old XML? Best regards, Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Jelliffe > Sent: 30 July 1999 05:08 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema > > > > From: Mark Birbeck > > >In previous discussions on DTDs versus XML approaches to > schemas I have > >argued that this ability to dynamically generate only enough of the > >schema as you need, (and the ability to cope with namespaces, which I > >haven't covered here) is my major reason for preferring XML schemas > over > >DTDs > > > >Does this confuse or clarify the point, Rick? :-) > > On the other hand: > > * Whether a schema is in one place or many places, you still need to > download all of it if your document has all of those elements; > > * Under your system, all possible child element types are downloaded. > If your document starts at the root, you will download all the schema > anyway. > > * XML Namespaces raises the possibility that elements from > different namespace can have content models that essentially > are the same, but which require separate schemas: for example, > one schema uses HTML 4 strict paragraphs and another > schema uses HTML transitional, or whatever. I think it is > important to have a commonly accepted basic vocabulary > to prevent this: HTML is a good start, but it is not managable > under any schema proposal I have seen yet. > > So your system relies on each individual schema being small, > so that no fluff gets sent, and that people use well-known > content models rather than make their own. > > In any case, I do not see why your system does not apply equally > to DTDs: what difference does the syntax make? It seems to me > that some amount of the "you cannot do this with DTDs" argument > would vanish if we bothered to define a DOM for DTDs, > with XML Schemas a transformation and serialization of that > DOM. When the W3C spec-makers say "you cannot do this > with DTDs" that only would require a DOM mapping to be > specified, they are really saying "you cannot do this with W3C > specifications" not because of the intrinsic capabilities of > DTDs syntax. A little misleading. > > Downloading branches of trees does not look either syntax- > dependent or semantics dependent: you don't need instance > syntax or XML Schema semantics. You just need a tree API > (e.g. DOM) and a serializer in whatever syntax. > > Rick Jelliffe > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue Aug 3 20:32:33 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema In-Reply-To: <000301bedc1e$8407b5e0$59f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <000001beddde$d9a4ffa0$798cfea9@w21tp> Rick, XML Schema information can be sent in fragments on as-needed basis and, on the receiving end, cached and accumulated to avoid the problems you are talking about. The schema cache can then be used to drive a validation FSM. Further traffic reduction can be achieved by marking XML fragments with 'validated' hints via custom HTTP header info or embedded tag. I really do not see a significant enough problem with verbosity that would negate the benefits offered by the XML schema. Yeah, the software ends up more complicated but that is what we get paid for. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From yiminz at timberline.com Tue Aug 3 20:43:21 1999 From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70DA@laposte.timberline.com> IE5 requires: xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xml-data" xmlns:dt="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes" included in a schema. Now when I create my schema I want to create my own namespace. Can I add another namespace declaration? So, is something like what is shown in the following legal and can I then use "mySpace" to refer to elements in "mySpace"? ... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Tue Aug 3 21:17:16 1999 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema In-Reply-To: <000001beddde$d9a4ffa0$798cfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: Please pardon the following rather pedestrian question: This discussion is proving extremely important for our ongoing development of XML writing and storage structures for academic research and publication. I recall a URI a while back for an introductory article on Schema's which would help to find for giving others a working knowledge of the concept-- perhaps there is more than one such article-- online. Any assistance with this would be very much welcome. jr ___________________ John Robert Gardner http://vedavid.org/diss/ ________________________________________________________________________ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Tue Aug 3 21:17:11 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: sax - 2 - dom Message-ID: does anyone know if there are any java packages out there that offer SAX-2-DOM conversions? I am parsing my XML with the SAX interface, but I need to read the majority of the xml into a DOM Document object for creating my DOMTree, keeping track of modifications, and serializing my Document back into an xml file. all tips are appreciated! thanks for your time, -mark cheek atlanta, ga xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue Aug 3 21:54:48 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema Message-ID: <37A749B4.733BBAFF@mitre.org> Hi Folks, Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling XML data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). For example, we may create an XML document to show stock quotes, where the quotes are gotten from, say, three different sources. Such a document raises interesting questions with regards to the XML schema for that document. Does the schema describe the structure of the document *after* the embeddding process has occurred (post-embed), or, does the schema describe the structure of the document *before* the embedding process has occurred (pre-embed)? For example, does the schema describe this version of the document (the post-embed version): MSFT Microsoft Corporation 85 5/8 +13/16 84 13/16 AAPL Apple Corporation 55 3/4 0 55 3/4 HD Home Depot 61 -1 3/8 62 3/8 LU Lucent Technologies 65 7/16 -1 5/16 66 3/4 Or, does the schema describe this version of the document (the pre-embed version): Another interesting question is: can we specify (in the schema?) that the XML parser should validate the pre-embed version versus the post-embed version? >From my cursory look at the XML Schema it appears that this problem has not been addressed. Is it going to be addresssed in later working drafts? Any comments on this problem? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Aug 3 22:29:15 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema References: Message-ID: <37A74F9E.A7CD90A5@prescod.net> Mark Birbeck wrote: > > > > > 123 > 56 > > > why bother sending more schema info than the name of the root document > and the two children that it has? Why bother sending any schema information *at all*? If the first system has the schema and the document, why doesn't it just validate before passing the information to the second system? If the second system, conversely, can only deal with information that adheres to certain rules, then why wouldn't it supply the schema itself. It knows what those rules are! This passing schemas "at runtime" with the data can only be useful for something OTHER than validation. The schema must provide some information that helps in the interpretation of the data. You could have just put that information IN the data and made it completely self-describing. Therefore sending a schema to describe data that is already coming down the pipe is at best a minimization. Unless I am completely confused, schemas exist to be sent in advance to be read by humans. These humans use the schemas to build software without reams and reams of error checking. Any other use for schemas seems to me to be a mere convenience. > For this same reason, I > must say I am surprised that fans of XML can be looking to use non-XML > syntaxes to define any type of data, unless totally > unavoidable/impractical. Definitions of impractical vary. Should URLs be expressed as elements? Should XPaths be element-based? Should SQL statements? Should Perl code? Where do you draw the line? Insofar as a) content models are regular expressions, b) regular expressions are trivial to parse and c) XML-structured representations of regular expressions are incredibly verbose, I tend to think that XML-structured content models ARE impractical. > Finally, no-one has come back on my point from previous emails, that if > you want to be able to index and manipulate the massive amount of XML > data that will exist in coming years, often using non-standard schemas, > you will need to be able to manipulate the meta-meta-data. And what > better tool to use to define this than good old XML? XML is not a data manipulation language. What you are really talking about are XSL, SAX and the DOM. These can be taught to parse non-XML syntaxes. In fact, they already do. XSL and the DOM can parse and interpret namespace declarations, for example. SAX will be able to soon also. XSL and the DOM will soon be able to parse XPaths also. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Aug 3 22:27:12 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: <001601beddef$3e4eb3a0$52f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: JR Gardner >This discussion is proving extremely important for our ongoing development >of XML writing and storage structures for academic research and >publication. I recall a URI a while back for an introductory article on >Schema's which would help to find for giving others a working knowledge of >the concept-- perhaps there is more than one such article-- online. The first place you should look at is the new SOX 2 documentation at http://www.w3.org/TR It has a lot of very good ideas. Try to avoid the XML Schema draft itself, until you have a good grip on what is going on: it is liable to be revised substantially, as many drafts are. I have written a book on structures "The SGML & XML Cookbook", ISBN 0-13-614223-0, which I think is very useful. I also have a series of articles on experimental schema ideas at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/schema.html Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Aug 3 22:37:28 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:13 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: <001f01beddf0$b86f3d20$52f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Mark Birbeck >I think much of what you say is true, but I remain a bigger fan of XML >schemas than you obviously are! Well, I have publically said that it was not worthwhile for DTD syntax to be extended to allow schemas about two years ago: I don't think I need to prove or detail my pro-instance syntax credentials! What I am against are the claims that instance syntax is always better than DTD syntax, or that mere syntactical sugar represents a real advance in modeling. I know people like to get a buzz going, and it is good to be excited about one's job, but I don't think many of the claims being made are as clear-cut as they sound. >... My argument is based on a recognition that >what elements of a schema I need depends on what is the purpose of the >XML document to which the schema refers. For example, if I have two >servers that sit all night passing data to each other, the purpose of >the schema is simply to validate the integrity of the data passed. Now you are changing the goalposts! Verbosity is a disproportion of the schema w.r.t. the data or its use; if you are passing the same kind of data between servers all night, the verbosity question does not arise. > If one server sends: > > > > 123 > 56 > > >why bother sending more schema info than the name of the root document >and the two children that it has? But so could a DTD. I could have and have the DTD generated at the server. The DTD could be generated from data marked up in instance syntax, for ease of implementation, if you like! The server that generates the data can also generate the correct URI. >For this same reason, I >must say I am surprised that fans of XML can be looking to use non-XML >syntaxes to define any type of data, unless totally >unavoidable/impractical. DTDs are XML syntax. In any case, I think that there is good evidence from programming languages that humans like a change in syntax when there is a change in the nature of the data, and that highly cohesive fields that act together as a name should be kept together: hence JavaScript is not XML syntax and URIs are not instance syntax. Furthermore, I think the notion that "terseness is of minimal importance" will be more applicable to some syntaxes within a document than others. > The solution used in IE5 - where > the namespace definition can be used to point to a schema for that node > - allows documents to effectively contain other documents. ... >People kept thinking that there needed >to be a document at the end of a namespace URI, and that it would be >used to validate. Even though they were wrong, they thought that because >it has a nice intuitive feel to it. First you praise IE5 for doing it, then you say it is wrong. I am missing something. >Finally, no-one has come back on my point from previous emails, that if >you want to be able to index and manipulate the massive amount of XML >data that will exist in coming years, often using non-standard schemas, >you will need to be able to manipulate the meta-meta-data. And what >better tool to use to define this than good old XML? The best way to future-proof schemas is to represent them in an ISO standard language, certainly not in a language developed by a vendor's consortium. So DTDs more certain: in fact, their unique syntax prevents mutations. There is no need to say "DTDs or Schemas"--DTDs *and* Schemas can coexist. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From charles.jolley at zeratec.com Tue Aug 3 22:45:11 1999 From: charles.jolley at zeratec.com (Charles A. Jolley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Binary encoding for XML Message-ID: <199908032058.PAA02998@www2.tuckeris.com> Hi all: I have seen some light traffic on this list for creating a "binary" or "compiled" form of XML and I was wondering what work is currently being done on this and what it's being used for. A binary form of XML would be very useful for interchange of small bits of data and multimedia formats between services in a system I am working on here. Thanks, -Charles xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Wed Aug 4 00:49:47 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: document.removeChild(node child) Message-ID: can anyone explain to me either: 1::why my code throws an exception OR 2::how to remove a node from a Document object ? I have a Document object that was instantiated using a DOM implementation while parsing an XML file.. whenever I try to remove one of the leaves from the Document object, I always receive an exception at: DOMExceptionImpl thanks for your time, -mark ---------CODE IS BELOW THIS LINE----------- public void deleteNode(MutableTreeNode node) { //delete node from model System.out.println(node.toString()); removeNodeFromParent(node); fireTreeNodesRemoved(this,new Object[]{getRoot()},new int[0], new Object[0]); Node aNode = this.getNode(node); System.out.println(aNode.toString()); System.out.println(nodeMap.toString()); //loop through document and match node?? NodeList zList = document.getElementsByTagName("item"); for(int z=0;z JR Gardner wrote: >I recall a URI a while back for an introductory article on >Schema's which would help to find for giving others a working knowledge of >the concept-- perhaps there is more than one such article-- online. You may be thinking of Norm Walsh's xml.com article "Schemas for XML" at http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/07/schemas/index.html. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net Wed Aug 4 03:11:28 1999 From: tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net (Tan Yiping) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: XML-data for defining schemas Message-ID: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A5AA@SERVER1> I have been using MSXML parser (MSXML.dll) coming together with IE5 for building a prototype. It has been working fine for me. The problem seems that when IE5 uses the parser, the validation is switched off. However, the parser itself validates XML doc by default. There is an XML editor called "XML Spy" (http://www.xmlspy.com) which can find the validation error. It uses exactly MSXML parser. Good luck. Yiping > -----Original Message----- > From: Giorgos Kaltekis [SMTP:mcaihgk4@stud.umist.ac.uk] > Sent: Monday, August 02, 1999 1:04 PM > To: xml-dev > Subject: XML-data for defining schemas > Importance: High > > I am trying to write my own schemas using the Xml-data schema provided > by Microsoft. I use the following lines > ? xmlns:dt="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes"> > ? > to refer to the XML-data. When I try to use the validation feature, > for example put a string to an element whose type has been declared as > an int, I cannot see an error from IE5. Shouldn't I? > So, I feel that my schema cannot use the features of the XML-data of > Microsoft. HAS ANYBODY USED MICROSOFT'S XML-DATA WITHOUT?ANY PROBLEM? > If so, HOW? > I would be very glad to hear some opinions, because I am working on my > project for the university and it is very urgent to know whether?or > not I can use the XML-data technology is writing schemas. > ? > Cheers, > George? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbryan at CapAccess.org Wed Aug 4 03:34:40 1999 From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question Message-ID: Thanks for your reply. I have another similar question. Suppose I want to set xml:space to "default" for all of the character data. Is this valid? It doesn't seem to allow it according to the EBNF, but I could be wrong. If it's not allowed, how would I go about setting "default" for all of the character data in the text? I have no use for DTD's if that matters. On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Randy Bryan wrote: > The XML specification doesn't allow > for whitespace in several places. This is because it is a derivative of SGML, which is a delimiter-based language, not a token-based one. Another way to look at it is that the is not a legal example, so that isn't really as helpful as one might like. In writing our book on XML, Ian and I did no better, I think, than suggesting that readers simply learn the rules :-( Lee (co-author, The XML Specification Guide, Wiley) -- Liam Quin, Barefoot Computing, Toronto; The barefoot agitator l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m Ankh on irc.sorcery.net, ankle5/Ankle{MD} on DALnet xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net Wed Aug 4 03:48:36 1999 From: tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net (Tan Yiping) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: sax - 2 - dom Message-ID: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A5B0@SERVER1> I had a quick look into IBM's XML4C. It seems fullfil your need. I would assume their XML4J does the same. You can find them at http://alphaworks.ibm.com/formula/xml. > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Cheek [SMTP:mcheek@NetVendor.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 1999 3:23 AM > To: 'listserv:xml-dev list' > Cc: 'listserv:java-xml list' > Subject: sax - 2 - dom > > > does anyone know if there are any java packages out there that offer > SAX-2-DOM conversions? I am parsing my XML with the SAX interface, > but > I need to read the majority of the xml into a DOM Document object for > creating my DOMTree, keeping track of modifications, and serializing > my > Document back into an xml file. all tips are appreciated! > thanks for your time, > -mark cheek > atlanta, ga > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Wed Aug 4 04:16:08 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990803221627.0094f6a0@nexus.polaris.net> At 09:39 PM 08/03/1999 -0400, Randy Bryan wrote: >Suppose I want to set xml:space to "default" for all of >the character data. Is this valid? > > No. The xml:space is an attribute, i.e. it applies to *elements*; the XML declaration is not an element. (Those things that look like attributes -- the version and standalone document declaration -- are more accuratly termed pseudo-attributes.) >If it's not allowed, how would I go >about setting "default" for all of the character data >in the text? Set xml:space="default" in your top-level element. It's inherited by all descendant elements unless they explicitly set it to xml:space="preserve". That said, why would you want to explicitly set it to the default in the top-level element (or, even if it were legal, in the XML declaration)? That would be redundant. The only place xml:space="default" makes sense is in the context of an ancestor element with xml:space="preserve". Like: On the occasion of the poet's crackup. [etc.] All the stanza elements would have their whitespace preserved. Only the epigraph element would follow the processor's default behavior, e.g. (maybe) stripping out extraneous blanks and newlines. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at hubick.com Wed Aug 4 08:03:31 1999 From: chris at hubick.com (Chris Hubick) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Java XML and DOM utility classes Message-ID: <000701bede3e$bfe447a0$2f67a3a8@au.pmi> I have seen quite a few requests for various DOM and XML utilities in Java. In the past I have needed and implemented many of the same functions people are asking for. The following classes might serve as a starting point or save other people the trouble of doing the same thing. I provide NO warranty with any of these, and they are free for anyone to use/copy/modify, although I would appreciate being credited where possible. Some of them have obvious limitations and fixes are appreciated. DOM utilities: http://www.hubick.com/software/Java/Doc/com.hubick.util.markup.dom.DOMUtil.h tml These include implementation neutral utilities for writing a DOM tree to an XML stream or string; cloning a DOM Node (even over documents/implementations); child Element access by index or name/value (tag name, attribute value, or both); Node equality testing (even over implementations); Build a DOM tree (using any implementation) using SAX events: http://www.hubick.com/software/Java/Doc/com.hubick.util.markup.xml.sax.SAXDO MHandler.html XML utilities: http://www.hubick.com/software/Java/Doc/com.hubick.util.markup.xml.XMLUtil.h tml Utils for escaping and unescaping XML references in strings; escaping quotes in attribute values. My general Java utilities page: http://www.hubick.com/software/Java/java.htm --- Chris Hubick mailto:chris@hubick.com http://www.hubick.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com Wed Aug 4 09:57:12 1999 From: florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com (Florin Popescu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: help: encoding binary data in XML Message-ID: <001101bede4f$942b2230$0b1a10ac@nl.compuware.com> Hi All, I have the following problem. My program generates XML files reading the data from a database. In the database I have both text and binary data fields. What can I do about the characters from rage (0-x20) which are not valid in XML (with the exceptions: TAB,LF,CR)? I have those kind of characters in some fields. Note: ------ I am using the expat to parse the XML file. Take in the consideration that I have to read the files back with my own I/O functions and not directly with the parser. I have to do it this way due to the fact that the I/O is very complicated and use redirection of the files via the network. So, I have a loop reading lines from a file and send it to the parser. Florin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Wed Aug 4 10:10:51 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: sax - 2 - dom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501bede50$ff2ad660$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> > does anyone know if there are any java packages out there that offer > SAX-2-DOM conversions? I am parsing my XML with the SAX interface, but > I need to read the majority of the xml into a DOM Document object for > creating my DOMTree, keeping track of modifications, and serializing my > Document back into an xml file. You could try John Cowan's DOM Parser (http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/) which generate SAX events from a DOM tree. That way you can produce your DOM tree, and then carry out the SAX processing as a second stage. Cheers, L. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Wed Aug 4 10:08:29 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: document.removeChild(node child) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000401bede50$a96d11c0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> > I have a Document object that was instantiated using a DOM > implementation while parsing an XML file.. whenever I try to remove one > of the leaves from the Document object, I always receive an exception At a guess, I think your problem is that you're attempting to remove the node from the *document* and not from its parent, so try replacing this line : > document.removeChild(yList.item(y)); with: Node theParent = yList.item(y) ; theParent.removeChild(yList.item(y)) ; You must remove a node from its parent and not the document. Its also probably worth bearing in mind that NodeLists are 'live' so that if other parts of your application alter the DOM tree and add or remove nodes then your node list will alter accordingly. However I think the above code change should do the trick. L. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Wed Aug 4 10:23:29 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: document.removeChild(node child) In-Reply-To: <000401bede50$a96d11c0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <000701bede52$bf72aa00$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Oops. I meant of course... > Node theParent = yList.item(y).getParentNode() ; > theParent.removeChild(yList.item(y)) ; Apologies. L. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com Wed Aug 4 10:29:43 1999 From: florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com (Florin Popescu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: help: encoding binary data in XML In-Reply-To: <001101bede4f$942b2230$0b1a10ac@nl.compuware.com> Message-ID: <001201bede54$1ed669e0$0b1a10ac@nl.compuware.com> I want to add that I need the output file to be readable. I can have for example 4GL proc code in the database and I want to edit the XML file, to modify this proc and to imported back. So, the point is if I convert the data before writing in the output file, this encoding should keep the text readable. > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Florin Popescu > Sent: 04 August, 1999 10:02 AM > To: XML Developer List > Subject: help: encoding binary data in XML > > > Hi All, > > I have the following problem. My program generates XML files reading the > data from a database. In the database I have both text and binary data > fields. > > What can I do about the characters from rage (0-x20) which are > not valid in > XML (with the exceptions: TAB,LF,CR)? I have those kind of characters in > some fields. > > > Note: > ------ > I am using the expat to parse the XML file. > > Take in the consideration that I have to read the files back with > my own I/O > functions and not directly with the parser. I have to do it this > way due to > the fact that the I/O is very complicated and use redirection of the files > via the network. > > So, I have a loop reading lines from a file and send it to the parser. > > Florin > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Aug 4 10:40:45 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: sax - 2 - dom Message-ID: <01BEDE65.D050EC20@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Mark Cheek wrote: > does anyone know if there are any java packages out there that offer > SAX-2-DOM conversions? I am parsing my XML with the SAX interface, but > I need to read the majority of the xml into a DOM Document object for > creating my DOMTree, keeping track of modifications, and serializing my > Document back into an xml file. all tips are appreciated! If you are using DOM, why do you need to use SAX at all? Do you do some processing at the SAX event level and then reissue the events for building the DOM tree? -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Aug 4 14:39:10 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: <01BEDE87.CFD38650@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> JR Gardner wrote: > I recall a URI a while back for an introductory article on > Schema's which would help to find for giving others a working knowledge of > the concept-- perhaps there is more than one such article-- online. See also my presentations on schemas on: http://www.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/DVS1/staff/bourret/bourret.htm -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Wed Aug 4 14:58:16 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question Message-ID: John, > -----Original Message----- > From: John E. Simpson [mailto:simpson@polaris.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 03, 1999 10:16 PM > To: Randy Bryan; XML Developer List > Subject: Re: Whitespace question ...[snip]... > That said, why would you want to explicitly set it to the > default in the > top-level element (or, even if it were legal, in the XML > declaration)? That > would be redundant. The only place xml:space="default" makes > sense is in > the context of an ancestor element with xml:space="preserve". ...[snip]... I was wondering about this very issue... You suggest that the 'default' behaviour for an XML document is to behave as if the root element had an xml:space="default". Seems reasonable, afterall why else would xml:space have a value of "default". However, in section 2.10 "White Space Handling" of the XML spec it says: "The root element of any document is considered to have signaled no intentions as regards application space handling, unless it provides a value for this attribute or the attribute is declared with a default value. " My understanding of this paragraph is to say that, "When a document does not place an explicit xml:space attribute on the root element, an application may choose to process the whitespace within that document as it chooses; i.e. as equivalent to either one of 'default'or 'preserve' based on the application's default behaviour" Am I reading too much into this part of the XML spec? Gavin. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Wed Aug 4 16:37:30 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990804104120.007d60f0@polaris.net> At 09:02 AM 8/4/1999 -0400, Gavin McKenzie wrote: >...in section 2.10 "White Space Handling" of the XML spec it says: > >"The root element of any document is considered to have signaled no >intentions as regards application space handling, unless it provides a value >for this attribute or the attribute is declared with a default value. " > >My understanding of this paragraph is to say that, > >"When a document does not place an explicit xml:space attribute on the root >element, an application may choose to process the whitespace within that >document as it chooses; i.e. as equivalent to either one of 'default'or >'preserve' based on the application's default behaviour" This is one of those bizarre areas where you can read into the spec almost anything you want. Since xml:space has only two allowable values, "default" and "preserve," it might be tempting to think of those two behaviors as opposites. Since "preserve" pretty clearly means, "Assume all whitespace in element content is significant," then by this interpretation "default" must mean the "opposite" -- i.e., "Assume none of the whitespace in element content is significant." This interpretation has a couple of problems. (1) cml:space="default" leaves "what to do" unspecified; it's entirely dependent on what the processor application normally does. (2) The fact that there are only these two alternatives means that there's no way to force a processor to *discard* "extraneous" whitespace in element content. Tim Bray's Annotated XML Specification, available at: http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/axml/axmlintro.html has a couple of useful comments about the whole issue. My favorite one for understanding the core of the issue is, "if it ain't markup, it's data." Therefore all spaces, newlines, etc. must be passed along by the processor just as if they were As, $s, 9s, and so on. Using XML alone, you can't tell a downstream app that it should collapse extraneous whitespace, a la HTML browsers (although I believe you can do so with XSL); if you don't want it to consider the extraneous whitespace, don't include such whitespace in the first place. All of which is to say, yes, I guess you're right: If you want to be absolutely sure that the downstream application uses its default behavior, then I guess it doesn't hurt to explicitly include xml:space="default" in the root element. (I still don't know how that will change anything, though. If the downstream app's default behavior is to preserve whitespace -- say in an XML-based source code editor -- then using either xml:space="default" or xml:space="preserve" is the same thing as using *neither*. If the app's default behavior is to ignore extraneous whitespace, then xml:space="default" doesn't affect how it processes element content, either.) Maybe someone with a firmer grasp of the subtleties can chime in here? ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Wed Aug 4 16:42:08 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990804104541.007dae30@polaris.net> I said, a couple minutes ago: element content The whitespace Gavin is grappling to deal with is not *element content* (which is what appears "between elements" as opposed to "within elements"). Sorry, I miswrote! ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Aug 4 16:47:55 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema Message-ID: <01BEDE99.CB7BE6D0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Roger L. Costello wrote: > Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling XML > data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). For > example, we may create an XML document to show stock quotes, where the > quotes are gotten from, say, three different sources. > > Such a document raises interesting questions with regards to the XML > schema for that document. Does the schema describe the structure of the > document *after* the embeddding process has occurred (post-embed), or, > does the schema describe the structure of the document *before* the > embedding process has occurred (pre-embed)? Interesting question. The schema specification does not answer it. However, it is really a question for the XLink folks, as it applies to DTDs as well as schemas. I doubt there is a simple answer, as both cases are useful. > Another interesting question is: can we specify (in the schema?) that > the XML parser should validate the pre-embed version versus the > post-embed version? Not currently. Again, this might be a property of the link, not the schema. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Aug 4 16:49:45 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Mark Birbeck wrote: > >... My argument is based on a recognition that > >what elements of a schema I need depends on what is the > purpose of the > >XML document to which the schema refers. For example, if I have two > >servers that sit all night passing data to each other, the purpose of > >the schema is simply to validate the integrity of the data passed. > > Now you are changing the goalposts! Verbosity is a > disproportion of the > schema w.r.t. the data or its use; if you are passing the same kind of > data between servers all night, the verbosity question does not arise. No - I was only illustrating the fact that how much schema you need depends on what is happening to the data. For example, if the XML document can be modified you need to include all possible children, but if the document cannot be modified, why bother sending definitions of nodes that are not in the document being passed - an 'instance' of many possible documents that could be developed from the larger schema? > > If one server sends: > > > > > > > > 123 > > 56 > > > > > >why bother sending more schema info than the name of the > root document > >and the two children that it has? > > But so could a DTD. I could have > > http://www.ricko.com.zx/dtd/statusreport?gi=statusReport+time+ > station+st > atus "> > and have the DTD generated at the server. The DTD could be generated > from data marked up in instance syntax, for ease of implementation, if > you like! The server that generates the data can also generate the > correct URI. I agree. I made the point that dynamically generating a DTD is about as easy as dynamically generating any other type of definition. My argument related to the point that schemas are verbose (in response to the 100k/1k point), NOT that they are inherently better than DTDs because they can be dynamically generated. However, I did go further and say that I thought schemas were better because they could take advantage of other XML tools, and because they had a simple route open for solving the problem of a document being validated by multiple DTDs or schema. > > The solution used in IE5 - where > > the namespace definition can be used to point to a schema for that > node > > - allows documents to effectively contain other documents. > ... > >People kept thinking that there needed > >to be a document at the end of a namespace URI, and that it would be > >used to validate. Even though they were wrong, they thought that > because > >it has a nice intuitive feel to it. > > First you praise IE5 for doing it, then you say it is wrong. I am > missing something. You are. I said they WERE wrong, as in, at the time of the great namespaces debate, people intuitively thought that declaring a namespace would validate their document because there would be a DTD at the end-point of the URI. The fact that this feature has now been introduced in IE5 (although with a schema at the end-point) doesn't mean that people hadn't misunderstood the namespace specification, just that they felt it should do more. In fact the namespace definition says that the URI doesn't have to point to anything, which long-suffering list members will remember caused a LOT of confusion and controversy. > The best way to future-proof schemas is to represent them in an ISO > standard > language, certainly not in a language developed by a vendor's > consortium. > So DTDs more certain: in fact, their unique syntax prevents mutations. > There is no need to say "DTDs or Schemas"--DTDs *and* Schemas can > coexist. I think future-proofing is only possible if we can manipulate our data definitions as easily as we manipulate the data they define. Trying to force everyone to use the same schemas is unlikely to work - although don't everyone come back on me and say I am advocating not having standards! I'm just being realistic. Regards, Mark Birbeck xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Aug 4 16:49:51 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: Paul Prescod wrote: > Why bother sending any schema information *at all*? If the > first system > has the schema and the document, why doesn't it just validate before > passing the information to the second system? Because that doesn't validate the transmission, i.e., has everything been SENT correctly? > If the second system, > conversely, can only deal with information that adheres to certain > rules, then why wouldn't it supply the schema itself. It knows what > those rules are! I'm thinking more of flexible, distributed systems. Sure, you could have the schema already there on the target server, but what happens when it changes? Or what if the schema is maintained by some third party on a special 'schema server' so that everyone can be sure they are working to the same one? I think systems that can 'build' the complete schema from its components 'as and when' are obviously more flexible. > Unless I am completely confused, schemas exist to be sent in > advance to > be read by humans. These humans use the schemas to build software > without reams and reams of error checking. Any other use for schemas > seems to me to be a mere convenience. I don't agree. Much software will be 'built' on the fly. Editors need the schema for each document type so that they can determine how a user can edit that document; data entry tools can use a schema on the fly to change the user interface as the user moves around a database. > > Finally, no-one has come back on my point from previous > emails, that if > > you want to be able to index and manipulate the massive > amount of XML > > data that will exist in coming years, often using > non-standard schemas, > > you will need to be able to manipulate the meta-meta-data. And what > > better tool to use to define this than good old XML? > > XML is not a data manipulation language. What you are really talking > about are XSL, SAX and the DOM. These can be taught to parse non-XML > syntaxes. In fact, they already do. XSL and the DOM can parse and > interpret namespace declarations, for example. SAX will be > able to soon > also. XSL and the DOM will soon be able to parse XPaths also. I didn't say XML was a language of any type, least of all a data manipulation one. I said that putting the meta-meta-data into a syntax that was itself XML meant we could use the same tools we use to manipulate our meta-data to manipulate our schemas, indexes and so on. So, when two people produce an article with completely different elements holding the author's name, we can process the schemas which will in turn allow a search for author to simultaneously check both article types. I think this issue is very important; everyone is looking forward to the XML revolution of 'more powerful' searches and all that stuff, yet does everyone really think that we are going to see conformance across DTDs and schema as people put their data on the internet? We need to think about manipulating meta-meta-data if we are to be able to make the most of these developments. Perhaps to pose the question more concretely; should there be a difference between searching for an article written by 'Paul Prescod' and searching for document types that have an author element? Why shouldn't I be able to do a search for all articles defined by any schema that contains an 'author' element, where the value of that element is 'Paul Prescod'? Should the process of indexing, transmitting, editing, archiving and so on, be different? Why shouldn't I be able to convert a schema to French or German using XSL? So, in the more abstract terms I was using before, should different tools be used for manipulating meta-data than are used for manipulating meta-meta-data? Because at the end of the day meta-meta-data is only meta-data, where 'data' = 'meta-data'. Regards, Mark Birbeck xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Aug 4 17:38:08 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Whitespace question References: Message-ID: <37A85EC6.17691BD6@pacbell.net> Gavin McKenzie wrote: > > My understanding of this paragraph is to say that, > > "When a document does not place an explicit xml:space attribute on the root > element, an application may choose to process the whitespace within that > document as it chooses; i.e. as equivalent to either one of 'default'or > 'preserve' based on the application's default behaviour" My understanding is that xml:space="default" is the default behavior in all cases -- "no intention" declared. The only declarable intention is with xml:space="preserve", which in practical terms suggests that the "ignorable whitespace" isn't really ignorable. The problem is that the xml:space="default" behavior isn't specified well enough that there will be an interoperable interpretation. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Aug 4 17:38:03 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: sax - 2 - dom References: <000501bede50$ff2ad660$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37A85EAD.F9A64073@pacbell.net> Leigh Dodds wrote: > > > does anyone know if there are any java packages out there that offer > > SAX-2-DOM conversions? I am parsing my XML with the SAX interface, but > > I need to read the majority of the xml into a DOM Document object for > > creating my DOMTree, keeping track of modifications, and serializing my > > Document back into an xml file. > > You could try John Cowan's DOM Parser (http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/) > which generate SAX events from a DOM tree. That way you can produce > your DOM tree, and then carry out the SAX processing as a second stage. Or mine, which also offers the SAX2 (alpha) extensions ... and also includes some other SAX/DOM conversion utilities. It also offers the full set of SAX2 DTD and lexical callbacks, which can be useful if you want a standardized way to get stuff like comment and CDATA nodes into your DOM. It's at the usual place (http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml). There was a question, "why SAX if you're using DOM". One answer is that DOM isn't a parser API ... so if you need to apply parse-time intelligence to modify (extend, minimizee, mutate, etc) the XML data as you parse it, SAX is an appropriate tool. Loading a huge document into DOM will bloat your memory consumption and slow you down. Trimming it into the right small document as you parse it, and only storing the Good Stuff (tm) in DOM, will often be preferable. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Wed Aug 4 17:38:23 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema References: <01BEDE99.CF635A30@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <37A85F1A.23192A5D@mitre.org> Thanks a lot Ron, I would like to push this issue (I think it's important). Any advice on how to proceed? Is there someone on the XLink committee (and/or the XML Schema committee) that I can send this issue to? /Roger Ronald Bourret wrote: > > Roger L. Costello wrote: > > > Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling XML > > data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). For > > example, we may create an XML document to show stock quotes, where the > > quotes are gotten from, say, three different sources. > > > > Such a document raises interesting questions with regards to the XML > > schema for that document. Does the schema describe the structure of the > > document *after* the embeddding process has occurred (post-embed), or, > > does the schema describe the structure of the document *before* the > > embedding process has occurred (pre-embed)? > > Interesting question. The schema specification does not answer it. However, it is really a question for the XLink folks, as it applies to DTDs as well as schemas. I doubt there is a simple answer, as both cases are useful. > > > Another interesting question is: can we specify (in the schema?) that > > the XML parser should validate the pre-embed version versus the > > post-embed version? > > Not currently. Again, this might be a property of the link, not the schema. > > -- Ron Bourret > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Part 1.2 Type: Notepad File (application/ms-tnef) > Encoding: base64 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Aug 4 18:34:09 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema In-Reply-To: <37A85F1A.23192A5D@mitre.org> References: <01BEDE99.CF635A30@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <199908041636.MAA19812@hesketh.net> At 11:41 AM 8/4/99 -0400, Roger L. Costello wrote: >Thanks a lot Ron, > >I would like to push this issue (I think it's important). Any advice on >how to proceed? Is there someone on the XLink committee (and/or the XML >Schema committee) that I can send this issue to? /Roger > >Ronald Bourret wrote: >> >> Roger L. Costello wrote: >> >> > Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling XML >> > data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). For >> > example, we may create an XML document to show stock quotes, where the >> > quotes are gotten from, say, three different sources. >> > >> > Such a document raises interesting questions with regards to the XML >> > schema for that document. Does the schema describe the structure of the >> > document *after* the embeddding process has occurred (post-embed), or, >> > does the schema describe the structure of the document *before* the >> > embedding process has occurred (pre-embed)? >> >> Interesting question. The schema specification does not answer it. However, it is really a question for the XLink folks, as it applies to DTDs as well as schemas. I doubt there is a simple answer, as both cases are useful. >> >> > Another interesting question is: can we specify (in the schema?) that >> > the XML parser should validate the pre-embed version versus the >> > post-embed version? >> >> Not currently. Again, this might be a property of the link, not the schema. I pushed on this issue a few times in the XLink group and was consistently told that XLink material wasn't genuinely 'embedded', only referenced, and that it therefore had no impact on the target schema or style sheet. While I'm still not 100% convinced that this always makes sense, I'm at least 75% there. You might try the xlxp-dev list - archives at http://www.fsc.fujitsu.com/hybrick/xlxp-dev/maillist.html. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Aug 4 20:03:26 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema References: <37A749B4.733BBAFF@mitre.org> Message-ID: <37A87C58.103D1527@prescod.net> Roger L. Costello wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling XML > data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). The latest version of XLink does not have show='embed'. The precise meaning of that is currently undefined and therefore your question cannot yet be answered. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Aug 4 20:03:40 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema References: <01BEDE99.CF635A30@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> <37A85F1A.23192A5D@mitre.org> Message-ID: <37A87CE8.418B54D5@prescod.net> Roger L. Costello wrote: > > Thanks a lot Ron, > > I would like to push this issue (I think it's important). Any advice on > how to proceed? Is there someone on the XLink committee (and/or the XML > Schema committee) that I can send this issue to? /Roger The XLink committee knows that the behavior attributes are not well-defined. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Wed Aug 4 20:37:01 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:14 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990804113822.011f4230@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 12:48 PM 8/4/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >The XLink committee knows that the behavior attributes are not >well-defined. This is not correct. However, the behavior attributes are among the issues currently at the front of the XLink WG discussion queue. Some (e.g. Paul) have argued for simply removing them, others for putting in substantially more detailed explanation of their semantics. Some think they're OK the way they are. And I don't think it's out of place to report in this venue that the XLink WG has placed itself on a very short deadline to get its long-overdue job done. Watch for a rapid succession of Working Drafts converging to a Proposed Recommendation in the immediate future. Stay tuned. -Tim Bray, Co-Chair, W3C Xlink Working Group xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tom.otvos at pervasive.com Wed Aug 4 22:34:03 1999 From: tom.otvos at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: DOCTYPE and URI Message-ID: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C851E@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com> When specifying the URI for an external DTD in the DOCTYPE declaration, is it generally accepted that a network-accessible document should be specified, or a local one? I often see examples where the URI is http://... , but I find it hard to imagine that *every time* a particular XML file is parsed by a validating parser, the DTD is downloaded from some remote web server. The XML spec does not seem to talk about this, but is there some search algorithm that allows a remote URI to be overridden by a local file, if it exists? Thanks, in advance, to anyone that can clear this up for me. Tom Otvos Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc. "We put the 'Go' in Tango! Yeah, baby." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From yiminz at timberline.com Thu Aug 5 00:02:33 1999 From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML schema Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70E4@laposte.timberline.com> Does anybody know if Microsoft's XML schema supports using elements from other schemas? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbryan at CapAccess.org Thu Aug 5 02:44:20 1999 From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Whitespace Message-ID: Thanks John for your reply. You state that xml:space="default" is the attribute used when it's not explicitly stated. It is difficult for me to understand the XML Spec. See the quote-section-2.10 below. It led me to believe that xml:space="preserve" is used when not specified. But then other parts of the spec conflict with that assumption. You've set me straight. xml:space="default" is used at the root when not explicitly stated. Thanks. That said, why would you want to explicitly set it to the default in the top-level element (or, even if it were legal, in the XML declaration)? That would be redundant. The only place xml:space="default" makes sense is in the context of an ancestor element with xml:space="preserve". Like: On the occasion of the poet's crackup. [etc.] An XML processor must always pass all characters in a document that are not markup through to the application. A validating XML processor must also inform the application which of these characters constitute white space appearing in element content. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Aug 5 09:58:52 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema Message-ID: <01BEDF29.CBC94110@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Simon St. Laurent wrote: > I pushed on this issue a few times in the XLink group and was consistently > told that XLink material wasn't genuinely 'embedded', only referenced, and > that it therefore had no impact on the target schema or style sheet. While > I'm still not 100% convinced that this always makes sense, I'm at least 75% > there. You might try the xlxp-dev list - archives at > http://www.fsc.fujitsu.com/hybrick/xlxp-dev/maillist.html. I'm not convinced at all -- do you remember their line of reasoning? To me, it's not enough to say that the material isn't genuinely embedded -- this just gives users a way to run roughshod over the schema/DTD. It also occurs to me that the answer to this question bears strongly on the way in which an XML application is architected. Saying that the embedded material is not validated according to the document's schema means that validation must take place before link resolution. I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but it does limit choices. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Aug 5 09:52:21 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema Message-ID: <01BEDF28.D69B7230@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Roger L. Costello wrote: > I would like to push this issue (I think it's important). Any advice on > how to proceed? Is there someone on the XLink committee (and/or the XML > Schema committee) that I can send this issue to? /Roger You can send comments on the XLink spec to: www-xml-linking-comments@w3.org and comments on the XML Schemas spec to: www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org -- Ron xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ameet.deshpande at tatainfotech.com Thu Aug 5 10:25:01 1999 From: ameet.deshpande at tatainfotech.com (Ameet Deshpande) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: About XML and GIS Message-ID: <00a101bedf1c$85c34d80$26247aa3@atg.tatainfotech.com> I am working in Tata Infotech LTD company and is presently trying to find the various prospects of using XML technology in GIS. I have no idea as to whether there is any work presently going on in this field (i.e. using XML in GIS). If anyone has some information on the above matter or if anyone knows of any web sites which may contain such information please mail me. Thanking you in anticipation Regards Ameet Deshpande Tata Infotech LTD (ameet.deshpande@tatainfotech.com) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990805/c471f449/attachment.htm From mmc at r-l.de Thu Aug 5 15:31:51 1999 From: mmc at r-l.de (Morten Christensen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: (Real) XML Content Management Systems ? Message-ID: <37AA125E.2E1DC5EB@r-l.de> Does anybody know of good Content Management Systems (CMSs) with: a) Direct XML support at the element checkin/checkout level.- Which I would call a REAL XML CMS!! b) Support for XML but not at the element checkin/checkout level (where XML can be represented as "blocks of binary data"). Or, alternatively databases with direct XML support, from which it would be able to "easily" build a mini XML "CMS" ? Presently I only know of one real XML CMS. This system is from POET. I would be very interested in learning of alternatives!!! Especially high-performance, scalable and customizable alternatives for "big" solutions! Thanks, Morten Christensen, R&L xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk Thu Aug 5 15:48:35 1999 From: tony.mcdonald at ncl.ac.uk (Tony McDonald) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: (Real) XML Content Management Systems ? In-Reply-To: <37AA125E.2E1DC5EB@r-l.de> References: <37AA125E.2E1DC5EB@r-l.de> Message-ID: At 3:38 pm -0700 5/8/99, Morten Christensen wrote: >Does anybody know of good Content Management Systems (CMSs) with: > a) Direct XML support at the element checkin/checkout level.- Which I >would call a REAL XML CMS!! > b) Support for XML but not at the element checkin/checkout level >(where XML can be represented as "blocks of binary data"). > >Or, alternatively databases with direct XML support, from which it would >be able to "easily" build a mini XML "CMS" ? > >Presently I only know of one real XML CMS. This system is from POET. I >would be very interested in learning of alternatives!!! Especially >high-performance, scalable and customizable alternatives for "big" >solutions! > >Thanks, >Morten Christensen, R&L > Not sure if it fits all your requirements, but the XMLDocument 'product' recently announced on the Zope mailing list does some of it (edit at an element level). No DTD validation (yet) and it is Alpha, but it's pretty impressive. http://www.zope.org and * Amos Latteier announced the availability of XML Document 1.0a1 a Zope product for using XML. A couple days later, XML Document made it into public CVS. http://www.zope.org/pipermail/zope/1999-July/007126.html http://www.zope.org/Download/XMLDocument http://www.zope.org/pipermail/zope-dev/1999-July/000990.html hth tone. ------ Dr Tony McDonald, FMCC, Networked Learning Environments Project http://nle.ncl.ac.uk/ The Medical School, Newcastle University Tel: +44 191 222 5888 Fingerprint: 3450 876D FA41 B926 D3DD F8C3 F2D0 C3B9 8B38 18A2 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Thu Aug 5 15:57:12 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: DOCTYPE and URI Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277C04@MDYNYCMSX1> >When specifying the URI for an external DTD in the DOCTYPE declaration, is >it generally accepted that a network-accessible document should be >specified, or a local one? I often see examples where the URI is http://... > , but I find it hard to imagine that *every time* a particular >XML file is parsed by a validating parser, the DTD is downloaded from some >remote web server. The XML spec does not seem to talk about this, but is >there some search algorithm that allows a remote URI to be overridden by a >local file, if it exists? As far as I know, relative URIs of the form (or some other relative path like "../dtds/foo.dtd") is more common than using remote DTDs, although this may be changing. The beauty of allowing relative URIs is that it makes it all backward-compatible with the SGML way, in which URIs were not an issue. In XML terms, the above example points to a relative URI that is in the same directory as the document, so if the document is local, the DTD is assumed to be as well. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Thu Aug 5 21:11:33 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Linking (using embed) and XML Schema References: <01BEDF29.CBC94110@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <37A9E29A.9F91E73@mitre.org> Roger L. Costello wrote: > > Suppose that I have an XML document that is created by assembling > XML data from various sources, using XML Link (with show="embed"). > > Such a document raises interesting questions with regards to the XML > schema for that document. Does the schema describe the structure of > the document *after* the embeddding process has occurred (post-embed), > or, does the schema describe the structure of the document *before* > the embedding process has occurred (pre-embed)? Ronald Bourret wrote: > > Interesting question. The schema specification does not answer it. > However, it is really a question for the XLink folks, as it applies > to DTDs as well as schemas. I doubt there is a simple answer, as both > cases are useful. Yes, I agree. This issue should be resolved with the XLink spec. By properly defining the attributes of the link then applications such as XML parsers will know definitively whether it should validate pre- or post link resolution. Paul Prescod wrote: > > The latest version of XLink does not have show='embed'. I just took a look at the latest version of the XLink spec. In section 4.3 it says: "There are two attributes associated with behavior: show and actuate. The show attribute defines how the remote resource is to be revealed to the user. It has three options: new, parsed, and replace. ... The parsed option, relating directly to the XML concept of a parsed entity, indicates that the content should be integrated into the document from which the link was actuated." The way that I read this, while it's true that there is no longer a show='embed', there is a show='parsed' which has the exact same functionality. "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > I pushed on this issue a few times in the XLink group and was > consistently told that XLink material wasn't genuinely 'embedded', > only referenced, and that it therefore had no impact on the target > schema or style sheet. While I'm still not 100% convinced that this > always makes sense, I'm at least 75% there. I agree that the link contents are not truly embedded. However, as was shown with my stocks example (and I can show many other examples, such as merging dynamically generated weather reports from different parts of the world), there is clearly utility in providing the abstraction that the XML document contains the embedded text (and not links). We need a link behavior which gives us the ability to specify that applications should treat the link abstractly as if the link contents are truly embedded (i.e., applications can't tell the difference). In summary, it's clear to me that the ability to embed content dynamically using XLink is important and the behavior of this functionality must allow the user to specify that applications should treat the link abstractly as if the link contents are truly embedded (i.e., applications can't tell the difference). One of the nice powers of XML is that it allows me to distribute my data production and provide "fused views" of that data. If this issue goes unaddressed by the XLink committee, it will result in different, non-interoperable, interpretations of link behaviors. As an aside, the "show" syntax gives the impression that the XLink group is limiting their thinking to display characteristics of the data. Doesn't this mindset limit the usefulness of links for other (non-display) applications? Tim Bray wrote: > > And I don't think it's out of place to report in this venue that > the XLink WG has placed itself on a very short deadline to get its > long-overdue job done. Watch for a rapid succession of Working Drafts > converging to a Proposed Recommendation in the immediate future. Looks like we best push this issue ... fast! /Roger P.S. Where's David Megginson? Haven't seen a posting from him in ages. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Thu Aug 5 22:10:25 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: About XML and GIS In-Reply-To: <00a101bedf1c$85c34d80$26247aa3@atg.tatainfotech.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Aug 1999, Ameet Deshpande wrote: > I am working in Tata Infotech LTD company and is presently trying to find the various prospects of using XML technology in GIS. > I have no idea as to whether there is any work presently going on in this field (i.e. using XML in GIS). If anyone has some information on the above matter or if anyone knows of any web sites which may contain such information please mail me. > Thanking you in anticipation > > Regards > Ameet Deshpande > Tata Infotech LTD > (ameet.deshpande@tatainfotech.com) Earlier today I posted a 'news item' to the SGML/XML News on the SGML/XML Web Page. See: http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/sgmlnew.html The relevant article is about the project MIX - "Mediation of Information Using XML" centered at UC San Diego. Follow the links; there's an article cited about MIX and GIS - "Integrating GIS and Imagery through XML-Based Information Mediation" - Robin Cover xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com Fri Aug 6 04:34:35 1999 From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: (Real) XML Content Management Systems ? Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E5E46F5@crusher.jcals.csc.com> Morten Christensen wrote: > > Does anybody know of good Content Management Systems (CMSs) with: > a) Direct XML support at the element checkin/checkout level.- Which I > would call a REAL XML CMS!! > b) Support for XML but not at the element checkin/checkout level > (where XML can be represented as "blocks of binary data"). > > Or, alternatively databases with direct XML support, from which it would > be able to "easily" build a mini XML "CMS" ? > > Presently I only know of one real XML CMS. This system is from POET. I > would be very interested in learning of alternatives!!! Especially > high-performance, scalable and customizable alternatives for "big" > solutions! The systems you're looking for started out life in the SGML world, but should be well XML-enabled by now. The major players in this area that I know of (aside from Poet) are: - Information Manager from Texcel (http://www.texcel.no), recently purchased by Interleaf (http://www.interleaf.com) and being incorporated into Bladerunner. - Astoria from Chrystal (http://www.chrystal.com), a subsidiary of Xerox - Parlance Document Manager from Xyvision (http://www.xyvision.com) They should all incude validating parsers and provide markup-aware checkin/checkout, versioning, sometimes differencing, etc. But be warned, none of them are cheap. Related products are also available from Inso - DynaWeb/DynaBase (http://www.inso.com), ObjectDesign - eXcelon (http://www.odi.com) and Bluestone Software - XML Server (http://www.bluestone.com). Hope that helps. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david.lindholm at appeal.se Fri Aug 6 11:29:57 1999 From: david.lindholm at appeal.se (David Lindholm) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Paper or article on XSLT Message-ID: <37AAACF1.AD8C5E77@appeal.se> Hello! I would like to read a good paper or article on XSLT, apart from the Working Draft on W3's site. Does anyone have a recommendation on where I should look, or maybe even an URL to an article? Regards -- /David Lindholm Appeal Software Solutions, Stockholm, Sweden xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Fri Aug 6 14:36:21 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Paper or article on XSLT In-Reply-To: <37AAACF1.AD8C5E77@appeal.se> Message-ID: At 11:37 AM +0200 8/6/99, David Lindholm wrote: >Hello! > >I would like to read a good paper or article on XSLT, apart from the >Working Draft on W3's site. Does anyone have a recommendation on where >I should look, or maybe even an URL to an article? > http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/updates/14.html covers the latest working draft +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From John.Martin at ncmail.net Fri Aug 6 16:47:35 1999 From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML and "Federated" Data Message-ID: <37AAF605.916C563E@ncmail.net> Our shop is on a course of "federating" data; that is, identifying common data elements used across the state, and agreeing on a standard usage and format for them. Some examples of the first few data elements we're trying to standardize are: City, State, Zip Code, Date, Race, and Sex. An example of how we're defining an element is: Data Element/Attribute Name: Zip Code Element Definition: As defined by USPS: The address element that identifies a geographic region or specific location defined by the postal service within the US. Valid values: USPS Table Element Format: 5N Element Length: 5 Bytes Element Type: Numeric The idea then is that in all new programs being created (regardless of language or platform, in theory), if any of these data elements are used, this is how it should be used. This, in theory, will promote interoperability in inter-agency programs. Needless to say, this is a huge undertaking. Though I'm fairly new to XML, I have an inkling that if XML becomes a standard for passing data back and forth, the need for "federating" the data in this way would be unnecessary. The DTD (and namespaces?) would take care of describing the data so programs would understand how it's being used? When I've mentioned this, one of the typical responses I get is, "Then, won't the XML tags have to be "federated?" I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts and/or words of wisdom on this whole idea. Has anyone done this? Or traveled down this road either in practice or in theory? What was your experience? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John.Martin.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 242 bytes Desc: Card for John Martin Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990806/23bc0262/John.Martin.vcf From crism at oreilly.com Fri Aug 6 17:20:23 1999 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML and "Federated" Data In-Reply-To: <37AAF605.916C563E@ncmail.net> (message from John Martin on Fri, 06 Aug 1999 10:49:41 -0400) Message-ID: <199908061522.LAA22171@ruby.ora.com> [John Martin] > Data Element/Attribute Name: Zip Code > Element Definition: As defined by USPS: The address element that > identifies a geographic region or specific location defined by the > postal service within the US. > Valid values: USPS Table > Element Format: 5N > Element Length: 5 Bytes > Element Type: Numeric What about 9- or 14-digit zip codes? What about foreign customers with their own postal code notations? I think a better approach is to define a "postal code" element or attribute, and use application validation to check for a number of possible legal values; for US addresses, it must be 5, 5-4, or 5-9 (I think) syntax; for Britain and Canada, I believe the syntax is 3 3 with numbers or letters (9X9 X9X maybe?). You could also, if they're few enough, just not attempt to automate validation of non-US postal codes. The federation effort is going to be as difficult, or more so, than any other document or database analysis effort. Don't get in the way of future expansion. (A friend working on a prison database system tells me they have six values for gender.) That goes two ways: if you start with a tight definition, you can loosen it later and old documents still comply. But if the validation is done in software, then newer documents may be rejected by older systems; if that's what you want, then that's fine, but it may be better to start loose and tighten down later. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From John.Martin at ncmail.net Fri Aug 6 17:41:42 1999 From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML and "Federated" Data References: <199908061522.LAA22171@ruby.ora.com> Message-ID: <37AB02C8.DC71DD24@ncmail.net> Hi Chris, Thanks for your response. Just to steer this discussion (if there is one) in the right direction, I am not interested in debating all the element considerations to make (we've discussed ad nauseam things like zip code vs. postal code, should it consider international, what if the USPS standard changes, shouldn't it be alphanumeric instead of numeric since we're not calculating on it, etc.). What I'm really trying to find out is if XML might enable us to totally avoid doing this work at all, and isn't the idea of "federating" XML tags unnecessary? Thanks, John Chris Maden wrote: > [John Martin] > > Data Element/Attribute Name: Zip Code > > Element Definition: As defined by USPS: The address element that > > identifies a geographic region or specific location defined by the > > postal service within the US. > > Valid values: USPS Table > > Element Format: 5N > > Element Length: 5 Bytes > > Element Type: Numeric > > What about 9- or 14-digit zip codes? What about foreign customers > with their own postal code notations? > > I think a better approach is to define a "postal code" element or > attribute, and use application validation to check for a number of > possible legal values; for US addresses, it must be 5, 5-4, or 5-9 (I > think) syntax; for Britain and Canada, I believe the syntax is 3 3 > with numbers or letters (9X9 X9X maybe?). You could also, if they're > few enough, just not attempt to automate validation of non-US postal > codes. > > The federation effort is going to be as difficult, or more so, than > any other document or database analysis effort. Don't get in the way > of future expansion. (A friend working on a prison database system > tells me they have six values for gender.) That goes two ways: if you > start with a tight definition, you can loosen it later and old > documents still comply. But if the validation is done in software, > then newer documents may be rejected by older systems; if that's what > you want, then that's fine, but it may be better to start loose and > tighten down later. > > -Chris > -- > > "http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 > 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: John.Martin.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 242 bytes Desc: Card for John Martin Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990806/d2de2141/John.Martin.vcf From crism at oreilly.com Fri Aug 6 18:00:38 1999 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML and "Federated" Data In-Reply-To: <37AB02C8.DC71DD24@ncmail.net> (message from John Martin on Fri, 06 Aug 1999 11:44:08 -0400) Message-ID: <199908061602.MAA23409@ruby.ora.com> [John Martin] > Thanks for your response. Just to steer this discussion (if > there is one) in the right direction, I am not interested in > debating all the element considerations to make (we've discussed ad > nauseam things like zip code vs. postal code, should it consider > international, what if the USPS standard changes, shouldn't it be > alphanumeric instead of numeric since we're not calculating on it, > etc.). What I'm really trying to find out is if XML might enable us > to totally avoid doing this work at all, and isn't the idea of > "federating" XML tags unnecessary? Ah. No, XML does not relieve you of analyzing your data. You may be able to benefit from an analysis that someone else has done by borrowing their "zipcode" element type and some sample code for handling it, but really you're going to need to do the same analysis and develop a full or partial document type for your data. XML gives you the power to describe your own data; it doesn't help you to describe it more than you understand it, though. -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From niko at cmsplatform.com Fri Aug 6 19:09:17 1999 From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML and "Federated" Data Message-ID: <006701bee02e$63db81c0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> Chris Maden wrote: > >No, XML does not relieve you of analyzing your data. What Chris said is too true. Since XML only defines syntax, the actual format of element and attribute data is up to the application. XML Schemas are still numerous and ill-defined, but Microsoft is charging ahead with an EDI flavor of XML (see "http://www.biztalk.org"). For bibliographic metadata, you might wish to look at OCLC's Dublin Core effort (see "http://www.oclc.org/oclc/research/projects/core/oldindex.htm" or go to "http://www.oclc.org" and search on "Dublin Code" for more links). Earlier, Chris Maden wrote: > >..for Britain and Canada, I believe the syntax is 3 3 >with numbers or letters (9X9 X9X maybe?). > >[snip] > >A friend working on a prison database system >tells me they have six values for gender. FWIW, i believe the UK uses numeric postal codes. Canada does use "9X9 X9X" codes (e.g. "T1A 3J2"). Chris, are you another prog who's done time writing COBOL? That pattern syntax seems vaguely familiar -- and will now cause me to have mainframe nightmares again ;-). Six? I thought there were only five (m, f, neuter, m-to-f, and f-to-m). What's the sixth? I know this is somewhat off-topic, but i'd hate to see the XML community repeat the all-too-common mistake of describing human gender as a binary value! Regards, -Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Fri Aug 6 22:26:16 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Valid XML Documents Message-ID: <19990806202811.12472.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Hi, Are the following XML Documents valid 1. 2. <FIRSTNAME> 3. <FIRSTNAME> </FIRSTNAME> Thanks Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From crism at oreilly.com Fri Aug 6 22:44:46 1999 From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Valid XML Documents In-Reply-To: <19990806202811.12472.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> (message from Mallikarjuna Sangappa on Fri, 6 Aug 1999 13:28:11 -0700 (PDT)) Message-ID: <199908062046.QAA00882@ruby.ora.com> [Mallikarjuna Sangappa] > Are the following XML Documents valid None of them are because they don't have DTDs. I suspect you meant, "are they well formed?" which I will answer. > 1. > > > > > Yes. A PERSON element contains a new line, a FIRSTNAME element, and another new line. The FIRSTNAME contains only a new line. > 2. > > > <FIRSTNAME> > > No. You start a PERSON element, which has text content of " " (the entity reference is resolved) but then you come to an end-tag for an element type that was never opened. > 3. > > > <FIRSTNAME> > </FIRSTNAME> > Yes. Here you have a PERSON element whose content is " " (all text, not markup). You may find the XML Recommendation useful: . -Chris -- http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487 90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Sat Aug 7 16:51:46 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: SOX Parser Message-ID: <000e01bee0e4$695b29a0$334ffea9@litebook> SOX - Schema for Object oriented XML It would appear to me that this is the one for defining fields etc for XML data, Define the fields in SOX Then have data in XML-Data format Data entry will require some forms type XFL, XDFL or some Schema Is this correct interpretation of application of these proposed standards? Does anyone have or know of a parser for this schema written in C++ Prefer a DOM type parser for SOX in C++ many thanks and best regards Trevor Croll Litebook Computers 42 pearse Street keperra Qld 4054 trevor@ioz.com.au litebook@powerup.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990807/b4311a4b/attachment.htm From stevenf at one.net.au Sun Aug 8 17:28:26 1999 From: stevenf at one.net.au (steven foong) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML survey Message-ID: <000001bec7c4$efd23200$0301a8c0@steven> Hi, I would be pleased and appreciated of your help by answering the following questionaires for my research. It should not take more than 10 minutes to complete. Thank you very much. University of Wollongong Information Sheet Research Title: How important is XML likely to be to the next phase of development of Web technologies? Researcher's Name: Steven Foong This research project is being conducted as part of a Bachelor of Information and Technology degree supervised by Dr. Carole Alcock in the department of Information and Computer Science Technology at the University of Wollongong, Australia. The aim is to find out the importance of XML likely to be to the next phase of development of Web technologies? Your participation in this research is voluntary, you are free to refuse to participate and you are free to withdraw from the research at any time. If you would like to discuss this research further please contact Steven Foong on 02-97244882 (Australia) or Dr. Carole Alcock on (02) 42213884. If you have any enquires regarding the conduct of the research please contact the Secretary of the University of Wollongong Human Research Ethics Committee on (02) 42214457. Survey Questionnaires: 1. Which Browser do you use while on-line? a. Netscape Navigator b. Internet Explorer c. Others Answer: _____ 2. Have you ever tried using XML? a. Yes b. No Answer: ______ 3. If the answer is yes in 2 above: XML is just as easy and simple to use as HTML. a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 4. Have you published any materials on the Internet in the last 12 months? a. Yes b. No Answer: ______ 5. If the answer is yes in 5, what publishing format did you use? 1.. HTML. 2.. XML. 3.. Acrobat PDF. 4.. VRML. 5.. Others. Answer: ______ 6. What is your preferred format for Web publication? 1.. HTML. 2.. XML. 3.. Acrobat PDF. 4.. VRML. 5.. Others. Answer: ______ 7. Which Search Engine do you use most to look for information in the Web? a. WebCrawler. b. Hotbot. c. Yahoo. d. Excite. e. Infoseek f. Others Answer: ______ 8. You normally get the precise information you are looking for with a minimum amount of effort. (Referring to question 8) a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 9. Documents marked up with XML are easier for search engine to locate with less effort than those markup with HTML. a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 10. XML is better than HTML in the areas of a.. Extensibility 2.. Client side processing 3.. manageability of documents Answer: ____ 11. Some 'Futurists' predict that XML is the 'The Next Big Thing' as a markup language for Web publication in the future. a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 12. Where do you see XML position will be in the next 5 years? 1.. Becomes the prime Markup Language used in Web publication. 2.. Exists in parallel with HTML. 3.. An island of XML in HTML. 4.. Will be diminished. Answer: ____ 13. XML is more complex to implement than HTML and is bound by rules that would deter people from using it. a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 14. The following will be responsible for the success of XML, (Please rank from 1 to 5 to each of the following: 1 denotes Strongly Disagree and 5 denotes Stronly Agree) Answer 1.. Web Publisher _______ 2.. DBMS _______ 3.. E-commerce _______ 4.. Browsers _______ 5.. Others ___________________ _______ 15. The success of XML will depend on the full functionality of XSL as specified by the W3C. a. Strongly Disagree b. Disagree c. Mildly Disagree d. Mildly Agree e. Agree f. Strongly Agree Answer: ____ 16. Any comment? 17. Please indicate if you like to know the result of this survey? a. Yes b. No Answer: _______ Thank you. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990808/9f5e9cba/attachment.htm From paul at qub.com Mon Aug 9 10:35:24 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE. Some2XML alpha updated. Message-ID: <011801bee242$d8d66240$f102aace@g0f2n0> Hello. Available at: http://www.pault.com -> XmlTube -> Some2XML The idea of Some2XML is to produce a well-formed XML documents from text files that already have some structure even their original structure is not too much XML-alike. I'm using a small perl script to produce XML from unpredictable files and then I'm rendering results to HTML with XT. I like this way. XSL is cool. Update contains fancy example ( much more complex than first one) and small API change ( + 3 lines ). You should be familiar with perl to use Some2Xml - it is very experimental stuff. Rgds.Paul. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Email: paul@qub.com http://www.pault.com PerlApplicationServer | XMLTube | Perl/JavaConnector =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at valinet.com Mon Aug 9 19:13:41 1999 From: abrahams at valinet.com (Paul W. Abrahams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Combining characters/Extenders, etc. in Unicode Message-ID: <37AF083E.F4D6248F@valinet.com> The XML spec defines certain character classes (in Appendix B) that are derived from the Unicode standard. Could someone explain what is meant by Ideographics, Combining Characters, and Extenders? I'd like to get this information without having to buy a whole book on Unicode, but so far I haven't been able to find it. Paul Abrahams abrahams@acm.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 9 19:59:13 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Combining characters/Extenders, etc. in Unicode Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990809110105.011fb5b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 12:56 PM 8/9/99 -0400, Paul W. Abrahams wrote: >The XML spec defines certain character classes (in Appendix B) that are >derived from the Unicode standard. Could someone explain what is meant >by Ideographics, Combining Characters, and Extenders? I'd like to get >this information without having to buy a whole book on Unicode, but so >far I haven't been able to find it. Advice: buy a whole book on Unicode - the Unicode standard. It's an excellent piece of work and really essential if you're going to be doing any work with these things. If it's not in your local bookstore you can buy it from their website at http://www.unicode.org/ -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edensr at businesslogic.com Mon Aug 9 22:05:12 1999 From: edensr at businesslogic.com (Rochelle Edens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: XML vs. object model resource usage for manipulation Message-ID: <37AF3533.C11EA4A2@businesslogic.com> I'm investigating intra/intercomponent xml processing and am wondering how this relates to traditional 'object model' processing with respect to processor hits and memory usage. Is one way going to be less resource intensive than another? If anyone has any info on this or has likewise been thinking about it, please let me know. //Rochelle xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Aug 9 22:29:24 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:15 2004 Subject: Combining characters/Extenders, etc. in Unicode References: <37AF083E.F4D6248F@valinet.com> Message-ID: <37AF3AA4.64F71CAA@pacbell.net> "Paul W. Abrahams" wrote: > > The XML spec defines certain character classes (in Appendix B) that are > derived from the Unicode standard. Could someone explain what is meant > by Ideographics, Combining Characters, and Extenders? I'd like to get > this information without having to buy a whole book on Unicode, but so > far I haven't been able to find it. If you don't actually buy the Unicode spec, at least borrow somebody's copy for a few days. There's a minor education to be had even just by skimming it ... you'll be able to tell what this summary gets wrong, for example! ;-) Ideographics ... think of Chinese characters. There's a big problem with Unicode 2.x in that it doesn't handle enough of them; there are many more coming in some eventual revision of Unicode (perhaps in the surrogate blocks). (Leading to an interesting question of whether those characters will be usable in names in some revision of XML.) Combining characters ... think of accented characters. You can write them sometimes as one character, sometimes as two, sometimes as both. (So there's a normalization question -- when you compare, you need to have a consistent representation of said combined characters). It gets much more interesting for non-western languages ... in general, as with surrogate pairs, characters don't consist of single sixteen bit Unicode values even though that'd make algorithms simpler! Extenders ... you'd have to look at the Unicode spec to see. Looks like a lot of language-specific issues come up. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 9 22:45:41 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage Message-ID: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> I have some questions about the Namespaces Recommendation's (non-)treatment of processor behavior. Section 6, Conformance of Documents, states what is needed to ensure conformance but doesn't specify what a processor should do if it encounters non-conformance. Section 5.3, Uniqueness of Attributes, makes it illegal to have two attributes for an element that have identical qualified names, never mind the prefixes. How should XML processors handle these errors? Is the uniqueness of attributes issue equivalent to the XML 1.0 ban on attributes with the same name (section 3.1), or is it totally outside of that realm? There isn't any explicit relation expressed between these errors and well-formedness or validity constraints, and I'm not even sure a processor should flag an error. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 9 22:50:51 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: XML vs. object model resource usage for manipulation In-Reply-To: <37AF3533.C11EA4A2@businesslogic.com> References: <37AF3533.C11EA4A2@businesslogic.com> Message-ID: <14255.16012.345695.519825@localhost.localdomain> Rochelle Edens writes: > I'm investigating intra/intercomponent xml processing and am > wondering how this relates to traditional 'object model' processing > with respect to processor hits and memory usage. Is one way going > to be less resource intensive than another? They cannot really be compared -- XML is a mechanism for serializing an object tree, while object trees are a mechanism for compiling XML documents. If you write everything out as XML and then read it in again, of course you'll take a hit, but presumably you don't write it out unless you have to do something with it (give the information to someone else, save the state of your object tree between invocations, or archive the information somewhere). Think of your object tree as RAM, and XML as the hard drive -- RAM's usually faster, but the information has to come from somewhere. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 9 23:11:51 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Lexicographic fun with namespaces (really) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990809141412.011fae40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> In a previous life, I did a bunch of work with the Oxford English Dictionary. They now have a nice web site (http://www.oed.com). If you check out the "What's new" link, there's an appeal for word citations for the next big rev of the dictionary. I was bemused to discover that the word "namespace" does not appear in the OED or its "Shorter" (and somewhat more recent) sibling. I have gleefully submitted a reference from http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names, but obviously this is not the first time the word "namespace" was ever used. The OED editors care (a lot) about finding the first time a word is used. And if this crowd can't find that first citation, nobody can. It'd be in either the theory literature on either programming languages or DBMS one would think, right? So... I'll buy a really good dinner at the next conference or other opportunity for the astute individual who finds (and submits to the OED) the earliest credible published reference to the word "namespace". Have at it. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 9 23:21:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage In-Reply-To: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <14255.17923.333302.337969@localhost.localdomain> Simon St.Laurent writes: > I have some questions about the Namespaces Recommendation's > (non-)treatment of processor behavior. Section 6, Conformance of > Documents, states what is needed to ensure conformance but doesn't > specify what a processor should do if it encounters > non-conformance. Section 5.3, Uniqueness of Attributes, makes it > illegal to have two attributes for an element that have identical > qualified names, never mind the prefixes. > > How should XML processors handle these errors? Is the uniqueness > of attributes issue equivalent to the XML 1.0 ban on attributes > with the same name (section 3.1), or is it totally outside of that > realm? There isn't any explicit relation expressed between these > errors and well-formedness or validity constraints, and I'm not > even sure a processor should flag an error. For now, it's safest to think of Namespaces as an application layer on top of XML rather than part of XML itself. In fact, that distinction probably won't last for long -- the current public XSL and Infoset working drafts, to give only two of many possible examples, treat Namespaces as an integral part of XML, and if there ever is an XML 1.1 or an XML 2.0, I'd be surprised not to see Namespaces in it (together with Infoset). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Mon Aug 9 23:23:26 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Combining characters/Extenders, etc. in Unicode Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277C39@MDYNYCMSX1> >Extenders ... you'd have to look at the Unicode spec to see. >Looks like a lot of language-specific issues come up. John Cowan posted a nice explanation of them last January. See http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jan-1999/0176.html. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 9 23:51:35 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Lexicographic fun with namespaces (really) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990809141412.011fae40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990809141412.011fae40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14255.19666.172477.484454@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > So... I'll buy a really good dinner at the next conference or other > opportunity for the astute individual ... ... or harmless drudge ... > who finds (and submits to the OED) the earliest credible published > reference to the word "namespace". Have at it. As a more positive contribution, here's the URL for online submission: http://www.oed.com/readers/submitform.htm I wonder how the editors manage now without paper slips to stick into all the little pigeon holes. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 9 23:54:26 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage In-Reply-To: <14255.17923.333302.337969@localhost.localdomain> References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> At 05:23 PM 8/9/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >For now, it's safest to think of Namespaces as an application layer on >top of XML rather than part of XML itself. I don't mind doing that; my main concern is that there is no specified behavior for that layer. I think we can make things up that sound reasonable, but we're making things up. >In fact, that distinction probably won't last for long -- the current >public XSL and Infoset working drafts, to give only two of many >possible examples, treat Namespaces as an integral part of XML, and if >there ever is an XML 1.1 or an XML 2.0, I'd be surprised not to see >Namespaces in it (together with Infoset). That might finally clear up some of the harder problems... I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've also concluded that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable way is pretty much impossible. So anything that gives that integration a good hard look and knocks it together is a great idea, even if it does put my books out of date. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cgrigsby at infinet.com Tue Aug 10 00:53:03 1999 From: cgrigsby at infinet.com (cgrigsby@infinet.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Processing Instruction?: including a java string variable in the value of a node Message-ID: I'm trying to include the value of a variable in the value of an node when i parse it into my application. for example: the xml node: https:///test.html the java: q = new XQLQuery("URL"); queryResult = q.execute(nodeAction); String sURL = ""; for(int j = 0; j < queryResult.getLength(); j++){ node = (Node)queryResult.getItem(j); sURL += node.getChildNodes().item(0).getNodeValue().trim(); } The problem is that I'm not getting the processing instruction to work. sURL end up being "https://" xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Tue Aug 10 01:08:34 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Anyone out there using datachannel xml/xsl package? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi all, A quick question: is anyone out there using the datachannel DCXJP package? I am finding numerous bugs regarding white space and was wondering if anyone else out there was having the same problem? Did I make a mistake using their stuff? thanks, erik xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Aug 10 01:51:54 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37AF6E29.245C70D3@finetuning.com> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've also concluded > that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable way is pretty much > impossible. Please explain this statement. Namespaces are already in use all over the place-- the implementation-specific behavior of among different processors might vary, but the integration of namespaces w/XML ver 1.0 doesn't appear to be "impossible", and certainly isn't the culprit for the inconsistencies between the different "namespace aware" applications. -- XSL and XSLT namespaces are currently being used all the time -- HTML namespaces are being "used reliably" in IE5 -- Even RSS's erroneous RDF namespace declaration does nothing reliably every time :-) Simon St.Laurent wrote: > Section 5.3, Uniqueness of Attributes, makes it > > illegal to have two attributes for an element that have identical > > qualified names, never mind the prefixes. > > > > How should XML processors handle these errors? they should "break", and give error messages like any other error. It sounds like the document in question would be violating both XML v 1.0 Rec and the Namespace Rec... what other behavior did you have in mind? it's probably an oversight or a typo in the document more than (what could amount to) an intentional design flaw someone had intentionally integrated into their syntax -- you're not doing anyone a favor looking the other way. There's probably a better, less-ambiguous, more descriptive name for that attribute's second occurrence (within the same element) or, maybe that piece of as-yet-unaccounted-for information is a hint you should place that value as an attribute of another nested element. either way, whatever you're trying to do, ambiguity isn't going to help you. That "no duplicate attribute names within the same element rule" just seems like a good "rule of thumb". i think that's all the specs are trying to say there. (although i'm feeling very foolish now for attempting to speak for the editors of either recommendation :-) Is the uniqueness > > of attributes issue equivalent to the XML 1.0 ban on attributes > > with the same name (section 3.1), or is it totally outside of that > > realm? yes i bet it's the same ban on the same bad idea for similar reasons. Maybe the editors were just trying to save us all from our own bad design :-) the suspense is killing me, lisa (feeling really foolish at this point) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wendy.cameron at qr.com.au Tue Aug 10 02:31:20 1999 From: wendy.cameron at qr.com.au (Wendy Cameron) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Linking with security Message-ID: Essetially what i have is as follows various history stuff varoious leave stuff varoiuos discipline stuff I have group of users that have access to all the information about employees. Within this group of employees I have a sub set that have permission to see disciline details. when the user hits the web site the user is Authenticated and it is known what type of user it is. Based on this knowledge I want to If user has access to discipline Show Discipline else Dont show discipline End Weve thought of using Entity References to date if the discipline file to which the entity refers does not exist then we get no XML what so ever when we actuall want every thing else but the discipline or except the entity that is referenced. (Ohh im using IE5) This is not suitable Im thinking maybe I could write an IE5 behaviour that retrieves the discipline xml parses it and adds it to the employee xml if it is available to this user and then retransforms. Problem with this is i dont know how to acheive it quite. Im aware I can assign behaviors to xml but are they activated (or how can they be activated) when parsed into a ActiveX xml dom? Does anyone have any suggestions? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Aug 10 03:00:52 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage In-Reply-To: <37AF6E29.245C70D3@finetuning.com> References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199908100103.VAA30708@hesketh.net> At 05:11 PM 8/9/99 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote: >Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >> I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've also concluded >> that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable way is pretty much >> impossible. > >Please explain this statement. Sure - piece of cake. I think we've been over these issues a few hundred times, but no problem. (I really do hope I'm not reminding the list of some of its more frightening days in any troubling way.) Namespaces are already in use all over >the place-- the implementation-specific behavior of among different >processors might vary, but the integration of namespaces w/XML ver 1.0 >doesn't appear to be "impossible", and certainly isn't the culprit for >the inconsistencies between the different "namespace aware" >applications. >-- XSL and XSLT namespaces are currently being used all the time >-- HTML namespaces are being "used reliably" in IE5 >-- Even RSS's erroneous RDF namespace declaration does nothing reliably >every time :-) Namespaces are processed just dandy right now by a lot of applications. But none of those applications is beginning to stress out namespaces. None of them are dealing with XML validation in a context where prefixes have conflicted and needed to be changed to something other than what's in the DTD, for example. None of them have attempted the legal but difficult problem of namespaces being declared in default attributes, which may or may not actually get processed in non-validating parsers. Basically, none of these applications is really doing anything exciting that couldn't have been done just by focusing on the prefix. While (hopefully) they do check beyond the prefix, none of them has explored the terra incognita that's out there. Particular applications do use namespaces reliably. That doesn't mean that all possibilities opened by the spec can be used reliably. >Simon St.Laurent wrote: >> Section 5.3, Uniqueness of Attributes, makes it >> > illegal to have two attributes for an element that have identical >> > qualified names, never mind the prefixes. >> > >> > How should XML processors handle these errors? > >they should "break", and give error messages like any other error. It >sounds like the document in question would be violating both XML v 1.0 >Rec and the Namespace Rec... > >what other behavior did you have in mind? it's probably an oversight or >a typo in the document more than (what could amount to) an intentional >design flaw someone had intentionally integrated into their syntax -- >you're not doing anyone a favor looking the other way. I agree that they should break - it's just that that behavior isn't in the spec. Assuming that such things are obvious doesn't seem consistent with the approach XML 1.0 took, describing error behavior (well-formedness and validation) in detail. >There's probably a better, less-ambiguous, more descriptive name for >that attribute's second occurrence (within the same element) >or, maybe that piece of as-yet-unaccounted-for information is a hint you >should place that value as an attribute of another nested element. > >either way, whatever you're trying to do, ambiguity isn't going to help >you. That "no duplicate attribute names within the same element rule" >just seems like a good "rule of thumb". i think that's all the specs >are trying to say there. (although i'm feeling very foolish now for >attempting to speak for the editors of either recommendation :-) I don't object to the rule of no double attributes at all. I object to the fact that this recommendation doesn't provide any guidance on what such a violation means. Is it a problem on a level with its XML 1.0 equivalent, making the document not well-formed (and processing should stop) or is it just another error to report and processing continues? The rules make sense (though I'm not convinced about this no default namespace for attributes thing) - it's just that unlike XML 1.0, enforcement is left entirely to the discretion of various random tool writers, making it difficult to assume that namespace processing will be performed consistently across different processors. Genuinely integrating the two recommendations - possibly with the Infoset as David Megginson suggested - might finally put these issues to rest. Until then, they'll be lurking in the background. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 10 03:17:53 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage In-Reply-To: <199908100103.VAA30708@hesketh.net> References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> <37AF6E29.245C70D3@finetuning.com> <199908100103.VAA30708@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <14255.31924.784588.997191@localhost.localdomain> Simon St.Laurent writes: > Basically, none of these applications is really doing anything > exciting that couldn't have been done just by focusing on the > prefix. While (hopefully) they do check beyond the prefix, none of > them has explored the terra incognita that's out there. That's not quite true. While it is true that certain XML features, like attribute default values and DTD-based validation, tend to grind gears a bit with Namespaces, there is a big advantage over simple prefix matching because prefixes cannot be guaranteed unique, and Namespace URIs can. This matters an awful lot for blind data exchange. To give a simple example, consider HTML browsers. Let's say that we didn't have Namespaces, but we all agreed that basic HTML elements and attributes had unprefixed names. Most people would probably concede the prefix 'ms:' to Microsoft and the prefix 'ns:' to Netscape (and maybe also 'mz:'), so there wouldn't be any risk of collision there. What about the rest of the world, though, especially the smaller vendors? I'm probably safe taking the prefix 'megg:' for my HTML extensions (just as I didn't have to pay anyone on e-bay for megginson.com), but are you sure that there is only one vendor or document-type designer in the whole world who will want to use the prefix 'real:', or 'news:'? Without Namespaces, you end up having to set up a prefix registry, and it gets silly fast (people will compete for good prefixes like they compete for domain names). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 10 03:59:11 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> <37AF6E29.245C70D3@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <37AF87F2.F9A52842@pacbell.net> Lisa Rein wrote: > > Simon St.Laurent wrote: > > > I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've > > also concluded that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable > > way is pretty much impossible. > > Please explain this statement. Is a violation of a namespace conformance requirement analagous to not being well-formed XML, a "fatal" error? Or is it instead like violating a VC, a relative wrist-slap from which processors are required to "at user option" continue? Or are such violations perhaps in that other "nonportable, you can't rely on anything" category of error? (E.g. the "for interop with SGML" issues.) I'd concur, one can't "rely" on any particular integration scheme today or in the forseeable future ... that was the sort of answer that needed nailing down up front. Today I see different answers from multiple vendors. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 10 04:03:45 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Processing Instruction?: including a java string variable in the value of a node References: Message-ID: <37AF8908.D650696@pacbell.net> cgrigsby@infinet.com wrote: > > I'm trying to include the value of a variable in the value of an node > when i parse it into my application. for example: > > the xml node: > https:///test.html > > the java: > q = new XQLQuery("URL"); > queryResult = q.execute(nodeAction); > String sURL = ""; > for(int j = 0; j < queryResult.getLength(); j++){ > node = (Node)queryResult.getItem(j); > sURL += node.getChildNodes().item(0).getNodeValue().trim(); > } > > The problem is that I'm not getting the processing instruction to > work. sURL end up being "https://" There's nothing fundamental that'd prevent that from working. On the other hand, you didn't say whose API you're using to achieve that ... "XQLQuery" isn't a standard DOM class. Given such an answer, someone should be able to help you. I've done comparable things with PIs, though not using any package that claims to work like any version of XQL -- just plain old DOM massaging of PIs. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue Aug 10 04:12:01 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage References: <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092048.QAA23202@hesketh.net> <199908092156.RAA25606@hesketh.net> <199908100103.VAA30708@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37AF8EFE.2C463B8A@finetuning.com> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > > At 05:11 PM 8/9/99 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote: > >Simon St.Laurent wrote: > > > >> I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've also concluded > >> that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable way is pretty much > >> impossible. > > > >Please explain this statement. > > Sure - piece of cake. I think we've been over these issues a few hundred > times, but no problem. lisa: Oh no, i am NOT trying to relaunch the usual debate about Namespaces or XSL implementations, i thought you meant something specfic, not the usual hypothetical worries... (I really do hope I'm not reminding the list of > some of its more frightening days in any troubling way.) too late, it has reminded and is troubling for me...:-) > > But none of those applications is beginning to stress out namespaces. None > of them are dealing with XML validation in a context where prefixes have > conflicted and needed to be changed to something other than what's in the > DTD, for example. More hypothetical worries? Well whip up an application and test it out if you're losing sleep over it -- what would you do when that dreaded conflict occurs? Figure it out, cross that bridge and all that... simon: > > Particular applications do use namespaces reliably. That doesn't mean that > all possibilities opened by the spec can be used reliably. Not every option all the time every day for everyone, however, under certain circumstances, most of the scenarios are "possible". That's why they are called "possibilities" :-) And in this vein POOF! an option was provided! simon: > > Basically, none of these applications is really doing anything exciting > that couldn't have been done just by focusing on the prefix. > I wasn't saying that they were doing anything exciting, we were debating the "impossibility of integrating namespaces with xml v. 1.0" , and we have now established that it is not impossible to do, because many have done it, and that you were really more un-satisfied with the level of innovation of the namespace-aware implementations to date more than anything else, and are looking forward to the creation of a "killer app? that will test out the limits of the namespace syntax mechanism -- and take it for a real test drive, but in a useful and creative way. We all look forward to that. simon: While > (hopefully) they do check beyond the prefix, none of them has explored the > terra incognita that's out there. "terra incognita" ? is that contagious? Maybe i'll hold off for now on exploring "beyond the prefix" :-) lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Aug 10 04:36:55 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Combining characters/Extenders, etc. in Unicode In-Reply-To: <37AF3AA4.64F71CAA@pacbell.net> from "David Brownell" at Aug 9, 99 01:31:32 pm Message-ID: <199908100305.XAA03146@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell scripsit: > Ideographics ... think of Chinese characters. There's a big problem > with Unicode 2.x in that it doesn't handle enough of them; there are > many more coming in some eventual revision of Unicode (perhaps in > the surrogate blocks). There will be about 6000 more very rare characers in Unicode 3.0, which is now in beta, none of them in the Astral Planes. Plane 2 will be dedicated, probably in Unicode 4.0, to the ultra-rare characters, particularly those used only in names, etc. > (Leading to an interesting question of whether > those characters will be usable in names in some revision of XML.) They'd better be. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp Tue Aug 10 06:35:21 1999 From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Anyone out there using datachannel xml/xsl package? References: Message-ID: <01ca01bee2e9$e3823050$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> Erik James Freed wrote: > Hi all, > A quick question: is anyone out there using > the datachannel DCXJP package? I am finding numerous > bugs regarding white space and was wondering if > anyone else out there was having the same problem? > Did I make a mistake using their stuff? > > thanks, > I have had a problem in using DCXJP seemingly similar to yours. Here is the description of the problem I encountered when using DCXJP. In DCXJP, you can specify whether whitespaces are to be preserved until they gets to the calling application with setPreserveWhiteSpace(true). However, if setPreserveWhiteSpace(true) is used with DCXJP's DTDValidatingParser, the parser reports errors (e.g. "element 'person' cannot have text data") for elements whose content model does not include #PCDATA but contains whitespaces in its instance. It appears there is a bug in validation module in DCXJP. - Takuki Kamiya xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Tue Aug 10 09:00:17 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Anyone out there using datachannel xml/xsl package? In-Reply-To: <01ca01bee2e9$e3823050$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> Message-ID: Hi Takuki, A very helpful response from Dave Brownell was returned to me, and he included this link: http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ It sounds like datachannel has many more bugs to fix. Most of the bugs I have uncovered seem simple to find and fix, yet have survived seemingly unnoticed. I can't explain it. erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Takuki Kamiya Sent: Monday, August 09, 1999 9:36 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; Erik James Freed Subject: Re: Anyone out there using datachannel xml/xsl package? Erik James Freed wrote: > Hi all, > A quick question: is anyone out there using > the datachannel DCXJP package? I am finding numerous > bugs regarding white space and was wondering if > anyone else out there was having the same problem? > Did I make a mistake using their stuff? > > thanks, > I have had a problem in using DCXJP seemingly similar to yours. Here is the description of the problem I encountered when using DCXJP. In DCXJP, you can specify whether whitespaces are to be preserved until they gets to the calling application with setPreserveWhiteSpace(true). However, if setPreserveWhiteSpace(true) is used with DCXJP's DTDValidatingParser, the parser reports errors (e.g. "element 'person' cannot have text data") for elements whose content model does not include #PCDATA but contains whitespaces in its instance. It appears there is a bug in validation module in DCXJP. - Takuki Kamiya xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nicmila at vscht.cz Tue Aug 10 12:36:06 1999 From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: A new CSS tutorial generated from XML Message-ID: <37B00111.A48DF9A6@vscht.cz> I have just published the first version of CSS tutorial at : http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/CSSTutorial/Books/Book1/index.html The tutorial is generated from XML sources with perl scripts. Read chapter how to contribute for details. You can also look at XSL tutorial at: http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/XSLTutorial/Books/Book1/index.html. Which is also generated from XML sources. You can download both tutorials including source files and programs at: http://zvon.vscht.cz/ZvonHTML/Downloads/listOfPrograms_en.html And my opinion to current discussions: The questions: use XSL or CSS, Perl or Python, XSL or DOM are not the correct one. You should use whatever you feel convenient with. For myself, a combination of different tools proved to be extremely powerful. I am not a professional programmer. And I am just an average amateur. But combination of this tools enabled me to make quite a pretty things (at least according to my opinion). The tutorials mentioned above require only JavaScript enabled browser, if you download it to the hard disk they will work without any installation, anybody can easily add a new example or create a new book. If I did not have a format like XML which keeps things nicely organized and eventually validated, Perl with it's power, XSL for some transformations, JavaScript for some XLink simulation ... then everything would be much more complicated. -- *************************************************************** Dr. Miloslav Nic e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz Department of Organic Chemistry TEL: +420 2 2435 5012 ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha) +420 2 2435 4118 FAX: +420 2 2435 4288 **************************************************************** xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Tue Aug 10 15:59:16 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Microsoft "Element declarations" for Word and Excel Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277C44@MDYNYCMSX1> Microsoft has released what they call "element declarations" for Word and Excel in a file available in an archived collection of 18 Word documents at http://msdn.microsoft.com/isapi/msdnlib.idc?theURL=/library/officedev/offhtm l9/concepts/default.htm. At first glance, it looks like a DTD, but look closer and you'll see declarations like these: Bracketed numbers refer to footnotes at the bottom, e.g. Page: 1 [1]Print, Web (Default), Draft, Outline Page: 1 [2]number 0-500 Default = 100 There are other typos--I found a missing comma in a content model and stopped looking when I found the bracketed numbers--so this these aren't intended for use to create actual documents, but they're still interesting. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Reinhold at Eng.Sun.COM Tue Aug 10 17:52:20 1999 From: Mark.Reinhold at Eng.Sun.COM (Mark Reinhold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML Data Binding for the Java Platform Message-ID: <199908101554.IAA15980@penobscot.eng.sun.com> Yesterday a JSR (Java Specification Request) entitled "XML Data Binding" was submitted to the Java Community Process. From the description: The proposed specification will define an XML data-binding facility for the Java(tm) Platform. Such a facility compiles an XML schema into one or more Java classes. These automatically-generated classes handle the translation between XML documents that follow the schema and interrelated instances of the derived classes. They also ensure that the constraints expressed in the schema are maintained as instances of the classes are manipulated. An accompanying design note was also published on java.sun.com. For more information please see http://java.sun.com/aboutJava/communityprocess/jsr/jsr_031_xmld.html http://java.sun.com/xml/docs/bind.pdf Please send formal comments on this JSR to jsr-comments@sun.com. Technical comments and questions may be sent to xml-binding-comments@java.sun.com. - Mark Reinhold Senior Staff Engineer 901 San Antonio Road Core Java Platform Group Palo Alto, CA 94303 Java Software 408-343-1830 Sun Microsystems, Inc. mr@eng.sun.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edensr at businesslogic.com Wed Aug 11 02:51:16 1999 From: edensr at businesslogic.com (Rochelle Edens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: XML vs. object model resource usage for manipulation References: <37AF3533.C11EA4A2@businesslogic.com> <14255.16012.345695.519825@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37B0C9C7.D9863764@businesslogic.com> I'm actually more concerned about DOM manipulation and parsing-activities in comparison to creating an object and method invocations. I understand there's a lot of overlap and instantiating objects is inherent to both, and maybe I need to dig through parser code and see how it's working and what's getting created. My thinking was that it could *potentially* be an issue. Thanks, Rochelle David Megginson wrote: > Rochelle Edens writes: > > > I'm investigating intra/intercomponent xml processing and am > > wondering how this relates to traditional 'object model' processing > > with respect to processor hits and memory usage. Is one way going > > to be less resource intensive than another? > > They cannot really be compared -- XML is a mechanism for serializing > an object tree, while object trees are a mechanism for compiling XML > documents. If you write everything out as XML and then read it in > again, of course you'll take a hit, but presumably you don't write it > out unless you have to do something with it (give the information to > someone else, save the state of your object tree between invocations, > or archive the information somewhere). > > Think of your object tree as RAM, and XML as the hard drive -- RAM's > usually faster, but the information has to come from somewhere. > > All the best, > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mclee at oblix.com Wed Aug 11 03:12:51 1999 From: mclee at oblix.com (Michele Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? Message-ID: <37B0CF14.1DD46387@oblix.com> I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any comparison available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ and expat. thanks! --Michele xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 11 03:27:32 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: XML vs. object model resource usage for manipulation In-Reply-To: <37B0C9C7.D9863764@businesslogic.com> References: <37AF3533.C11EA4A2@businesslogic.com> <14255.16012.345695.519825@localhost.localdomain> <37B0C9C7.D9863764@businesslogic.com> Message-ID: <14256.53629.489711.158321@localhost.localdomain> Rochelle Edens writes: > I'm actually more concerned about DOM manipulation and > parsing-activities in comparison to creating an object and method > invocations. I understand there's a lot of overlap and > instantiating objects is inherent to both, and maybe I need to dig > through parser code and see how it's working and what's getting > created. My thinking was that it could *potentially* be an issue. Yes, it's certainly an issue. The DOM is a generic object model for XML documents, but when you already have a domain-specific object model, it will usually be more efficient -- in those cases, people tend to use an event-based API like SAX to build their object trees directly, eliminating the middle DOM phase. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 11 03:30:45 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? In-Reply-To: <37B0CF14.1DD46387@oblix.com> References: <37B0CF14.1DD46387@oblix.com> Message-ID: <14256.53746.339194.311797@localhost.localdomain> Michele Lee writes: > I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any > comparison available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ > and expat. Expat is small, fast, and stable -- it's getting a very heavy workout in the Perl community (where it's the standard Perl XML parser), so serious bugs tend to have been chased down, and it seems to operate practically at I/O speed. On the downside, Expat is C rather than C++, so the interface is a little messy -- you might want to put together a C++ wrapper to help avoid nastier bugs. I have no experience yet with IBM4C++, but I do know that they have an interface based on SAX as well as the DOM. It's very new, so expect bugs. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in Wed Aug 11 10:43:54 1999 From: rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in (rajnishm@delhi.tcs.co.in) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: XML Parser Message-ID: Hi, Im interested in knowing which XML Parser(Event Based) in JAVA is best suited. It should be able to understand the DTD properly and give proper error messages. How should my application (written in JAVA) go for the logical switches as will be reported by the Parser? Do I need to maintain an internal Tree structure to do this task? Pls suggest Thanks Rajnish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990811/28db0ee1/attachment.htm From markus at dom.de Wed Aug 11 11:04:49 1999 From: markus at dom.de (Markus Schulte) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: anybody knows a java applet generating XML? Message-ID: <37B13D7C.D425DFE7@dom.de> hi, since ages i think about having a content management system based on XML. i know loads of people do (but where is it??). my last research, ~half a year ago, failed on an editor that allows text formatting via mouse. it should preferably be a java applet cause i want to end up with a web based solution. umpf... anybody knows something? markus -- Digital Online Media GmbH (we like to be called DOM) http://www.dom.de mailto: markus@dom.de phone: +49 221 951680 fax: +49 221 951688 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From StefanoSangineto at OPACC.CH Wed Aug 11 11:34:39 1999 From: StefanoSangineto at OPACC.CH (Sangineto Stefano) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Notations in the external Subset Message-ID: <40CF93F9864ED3119FCA00805F35662704B593@mail.opacc.ch> Saluti I know that I have to declare a Notation for each unparsed entity format eg. jpeg, gif. Now I would like to declare all the necessary notations in the external DTD subset, so each author could use the same notation names within the document instances. In the internal DTD-Subsets they would have only to declare the (image) entity, for example: ]> ... I read in the XML specification that the internal subset is processed before the external subset. Is this the reason for my xml-editor error messages (Notation not declared Line 3)? Is there a way to get round this annoying problem or must each author declare his own notations? Please help Stefano xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co Wed Aug 11 12:18:30 1999 From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (F.A.A.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? In-Reply-To: <37B0CF14.1DD46387@oblix.com> Message-ID: <000c01bee3e3$b0e60ae0$0100000a@phoebe> - I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any - comparison - available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ and expat. Just wanted to add 3 things to mr. David Megginson's reply: 1.A very useful c++ wrapper was posted to the list a couple of months ago by Andy Dent. Just check the list archives or send me an email. 2.I have used them both on diferent versions of a project and I've found expat (using Andy's expatpp) a better choice because of stability (David is right: expect a few problems with IBM4C2), portability, and speed. Besides, on a personal note, my development time with expat was considerably smaller (about 10% less; note that i first used expat, so i had some experience with a parser when i tackled xml4c++). 3.A few weeks ago www.XML.com published a comparision of parsers, you may want to take a look there. Live long, Fabio - thanks! - - --Michele xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Aug 11 16:53:16 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:16 2004 Subject: Notations in the external Subset References: <40CF93F9864ED3119FCA00805F35662704B593@mail.opacc.ch> Message-ID: <37B18EE4.B4407726@locke.ccil.org> Sangineto Stefano wrote: > I read in the XML specification that the internal subset is processed before > the external subset. Is this the reason for my xml-editor error messages > (Notation not declared Line 3)? > Is there a way to get round this annoying problem or must each author > declare his own notations? There is no reason in XML for the notation to be declared before the external entity, and if your software does make such a requirement, it is broken. However, there may be another reason for the error. You speak of "jpeg" in the first line, but "jpg" is used in the sample document. Is this the problem? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge / Politzer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Aug 11 17:10:54 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: Notations in the external Subset References: <40CF93F9864ED3119FCA00805F35662704B593@mail.opacc.ch> Message-ID: <37B192BA.F6E08947@pacbell.net> Sangineto Stefano wrote: > > > > ]> > > ... > > I read in the XML specification that the internal subset is processed before > the external subset. Is this the reason for my xml-editor error messages > (Notation not declared Line 3)? I'd say that's a bug in the validation being performed by the XML processor used by your editor application. There's a validity requirement that the notation ("jpg") be declared. If you declare it in the external subset, you'll meet that validity constraint. The spec doesn't place a "define before use" requirement there, as was done for references to parsed entities. The processor you are using is checking too early (when the entity is declared); it should be delaying until the notation declarations are all known. > Is there a way to get round this annoying problem or must each author > declare his own notations? Use an XML processor which doesn't have this bug. As you implied, it'd be quite painful (also error-prone) to use unparsed entities if the internal subset couldn't refer to notations that were declared externally. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us Wed Aug 11 19:58:40 1999 From: ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us (Ken MacLeod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: libxml-perl-0.04 Message-ID: libxml-perl-0.04 is making it's way to CPAN archive sites. libxml-perl is a collection of smaller Perl modules, scripts, and documents for working with XML. libxml-perl software works in combination with XML::Parser, PerlSAX, XML::DOM, XML::Grove, and others. HTML-rendered PODs can be found on the home page, Changes since libxml-perl-0.03: * The major new part of this release is a design, documentation, and alpha implementations for modular pattern (query) and action processing. Briefly, patterns and actions are specified as pairs of pattern and action statements. The pattern format or language is defined by a pattern module and the action format or language is defined by an action module. An action module is a PerlSAX handler and it drives the processing by the two modules. Included are ``Using PatAct Modules'' and ``Creating PatAct Modules'' documents, a module for matching against simple element names, XML::PatAct::MatchName, a module for converting XML into Perl Objects, XML::PatAct::ToObjects, a module for simple before and after style text replacement inspired by the Amsterdam SGML Parser and Linuxdoc, XML::PatAct::Amsterdam, and template modules for creating new pattern or action modules. * A fix to XML::Parser::PerlSAX and XML::ESISParser to correct a missing hash argument in `start_document()' and `end_document()'. Changes since libxml-perl-0.02: * Added a PerlSAX handler for writing Canonical XML, XML::Handler::CanonXMLWriter. libxml-perl contains the following: Modules XML::Parser::PerlSAX XML::Handler::Sample XML::Handler::CanonXMLWriter XML::ESISParser Data::Grove Data::Grove::Parent Data::Grove::Visitor XML::PatAct::ActionTempl XML::PatAct::Amsterdam XML::PatAct::MatchName XML::PatAct::PatternTempl XML::PatAct::ToObjects XML::SAX2Perl XML::Perl2SAX Documents PerlSAX Using PerlSAX Using PatAct Modules Creating PatAct Modules List of Perl XML modules by category, in XML -- Ken MacLeod ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamsden at us.ibm.com Wed Aug 11 20:47:33 1999 From: jamsden at us.ibm.com (jamsden@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: (Real) XML Content Management Systems ? Message-ID: <852567CA.00674756.00@d54mta03.raleigh.ibm.com> Checkout WebDAV at www.webdav.org, especially the DELTA-V (versioning and configuration management extensions). Morten Christensen on 08/05/99 06:38:22 PM Please respond to Morten Christensen To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk cc: Subject: (Real) XML Content Management Systems ? Does anybody know of good Content Management Systems (CMSs) with: a) Direct XML support at the element checkin/checkout level.- Which I would call a REAL XML CMS!! b) Support for XML but not at the element checkin/checkout level (where XML can be represented as "blocks of binary data"). Or, alternatively databases with direct XML support, from which it would be able to "easily" build a mini XML "CMS" ? Presently I only know of one real XML CMS. This system is from POET. I would be very interested in learning of alternatives!!! Especially high-performance, scalable and customizable alternatives for "big" solutions! Thanks, Morten Christensen, R&L xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jadams at touchpointsw.com Wed Aug 11 23:00:42 1999 From: jadams at touchpointsw.com (jadams@touchpointsw.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: White Space Message-ID: <852567CA.006C3EE8.00@postal.imagedata.com> Am using IBM xml4c2_2_0 SAXPrint, and It appears that leading and trailing spaces (whitespace) surrounding an element, e.g. mumble , mumble , and lastly mumble , offer up via the characters handler mumble with no space, a trailing space, and lastly a trailing NL (0x0A) respectively. My difficulty lies in comparing the many forms of mumble with the string "mumble" because of the white space. Simon's "Building ..." Pp 87 suggests that maybe (hopefully) the parser is removing white space. Should the underlying SAX parser be removing the troublesome white space or should i be removing this problem white space in the characters handler??? Thanks much xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 11 23:13:48 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: White Space In-Reply-To: <852567CA.006C3EE8.00@postal.imagedata.com> References: <852567CA.006C3EE8.00@postal.imagedata.com> Message-ID: <14257.59297.747591.676156@localhost.localdomain> jadams@touchpointsw.com writes: > My difficulty lies in comparing the many forms of mumble with the > string "mumble" because of the white space. Simon's "Building ..." > Pp 87 suggests that maybe (hopefully) the parser is removing white > space. Should the underlying SAX parser be removing the > troublesome white space or should i be removing this problem white > space in the characters handler??? A generic SAX parser should *not* remove the whitespace, or else it is non-conformant. It would be reasonable, however, to write a SAX filter that normalizes whitespace at user option. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Aug 12 00:00:00 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: White Space In-Reply-To: <852567CA.006C3EE8.00@postal.imagedata.com> Message-ID: <199908112201.SAA08955@hesketh.net> At 04:42 PM 8/11/99 -0400, jadams@touchpointsw.com wrote: >Am using IBM xml4c2_2_0 SAXPrint, and >It appears that leading and trailing spaces (whitespace) surrounding an >element, e.g. > mumble , > mumble , > and lastly > mumble > , >offer up via the characters handler mumble with no space, a trailing space, >and lastly a trailing NL (0x0A) respectively. >My difficulty lies in comparing the many forms of mumble with the string >"mumble" because of the white space. Simon's "Building ..." Pp 87 suggests >that maybe (hopefully) the parser is removing white space. >Should the underlying SAX parser be removing the troublesome white space or >should i be removing this problem white space in the characters handler??? >Thanks much It's that wacky distinction between what the parser does (which is most of what the XML spec discusses) and what the application does (which is xml:space). The _parser_ should return all whitespace to the application, apart from the rules about end of line in section 2.11. That means you'll need to have your application, or a filter (as David Megginson suggested) eliminate whitespace you don't consider significant. Whitespace seems to be an issue that just never dies... Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Thu Aug 12 09:06:55 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML for newbies WEB page Message-ID: <001601bee491$41886040$334ffea9@litebook> I have collected and distilled the wisdom of this group and another group and put it into a WEB page at http://www.ioz.com.au/XML/index.htm Please take what you can and add it to you WEB pages and let me know where it is. There is, I believe a need for a good overview of XML where those new to it can be sent for explanations, this I have tried to do. Trevor Croll Litebook Computers trevor@ioz.com.au -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990812/ccdf392a/attachment.htm From litebook at powerup.com.au Thu Aug 12 09:03:15 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? References: <37B0CF14.1DD46387@oblix.com> Message-ID: <000201bee490$bdb2fc80$334ffea9@litebook> From: Michele Lee > I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any comparison > available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ and expat. > > thanks! > > --Michele I have looked a lot at this problem and have considered the only solution is to write my own. Inside an application there is no need to meet with any standards, we only want the tree so we can query our data, take chunks of it and use it elsewhere, write it out somewhere, and do data entry and editing on it. This makes the task simplier. If you do come across a neat, small C++ parser class and iterator please tell me too. Trevor Croll Litebook Computers xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murata.makoto at fujixerox.co.jp Thu Aug 12 11:45:42 1999 From: murata.makoto at fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema Message-ID: <199908120949.AA01410@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Paul Prescod wrote: >Why bother sending any schema information *at all*? If the first system >has the schema and the document, why doesn't it just validate before >passing the information to the second system? If the second system, >conversely, can only deal with information that adheres to certain >rules, then why wouldn't it supply the schema itself. It knows what >those rules are! The current working draft of XSDL introduced "information set contribution"; a *lot* of information in schemata is exposed to application programs. Therefore, you need to use a schema-ware processor and download the schema. Moreover, you need some new APIs which can capture "information set contribution". Otherwise, you cannot really use XSDL. Makoto Fuji Xerox Information Systems Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231 E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Srinivasan_KS at inf.com Thu Aug 12 15:47:18 1999 From: Srinivasan_KS at inf.com (Srinivasan_KS) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: How to get the text kept between two html tags Message-ID: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D5FA@TWRMSG01> I want to get the information kept between html tags or attributes. How do I do this using EXPAT or using SAX? EG:- INFO1 INFO2 How to extract INFO1 and INFO2 and store it in some other file. Thanx in Advance, Srini xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Aug 12 16:18:34 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: How to get the text kept between two html tags Message-ID: <01BEE4DE.FA7448B0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Srinivasan_KS wrote: > I want to get the information kept between html tags or attributes. > How do I do this using EXPAT or using SAX? > EG:- > INFO1 > INFO2 > How to extract INFO1 and INFO2 and store it in some other file. Presumably, you mean XHTML or XML? Expat and other XML parsers won't work on non-well-formed HTML documents, which is most. In SAX, implement the DocumentHandler interface and register your implementation with a SAX-enabled parser. When the parser calls startElement(), you'll need to keep the element name (TEXT1 or TEXT2) as state. You can also retrieve attribute values at this time (they are passed to startElement). The parser will call characters() to pass you the text. Based on the state (TEXT1 or TEXT2), you can store it appropriately. Note that the parser can make multiple calls to characters() -- that is, it could call characters() five times (once for each character), once (with all the characters), or anything in between. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From owner-xml-dev at ic.ac.uk Thu Aug 12 23:43:24 1999 From: owner-xml-dev at ic.ac.uk (owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: From egonw at sci.kun.nl Fri Aug 13 13:28:55 1999 From: egonw at sci.kun.nl (E.L. Willighagen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML/XSL->XML: how to add ???? Message-ID: <199908131131.NAA00576@studs3.sci.kun.nl> Does anyone know how to add a line when converting XML to XML with a XSL? Cannot find it in the W3C WD, nor in any newsgroup/maillist. Egon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Claude.Pasquier at sophia.inria.fr Fri Aug 13 14:12:58 1999 From: Claude.Pasquier at sophia.inria.fr (Claude Pasquier) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML/XSL->XML: how to add ???? Message-ID: <37B40C68.DCB19ADB@sophia.inria.fr> "E.L. Willighagen" wrote: > > Does anyone know how to add a line when converting XML to XML > with a XSL? > > Cannot find it in the W3C WD, nor in any newsgroup/maillist. > > Egon > You may write it like this : <!DOCTYPE ... Claude. -- Claude Pasquier Lemme Project e-mail: Claude.Pasquier@sophia.inria.fr INRIA Sophia Antipolis Tel. : +33 (0)4 92 38 76 32 2004 route des Lucioles - BP 93 06902 SOPHIA ANTIPOLIS Cedex - FRANCE xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Fri Aug 13 14:43:08 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: Hi, I'm testing lotusxsl to apply transform XML to HTML. I used entities like ö for german umlauts, which lotusxsl complains that it is undefined. I think there must be some file containing the standard entity definitions. Can anybody tell where I can find it and how to include it. Thanks. Dapeng xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri Aug 13 15:09:43 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990813090639.009d7f00@polaris.net> At 02:45 PM 8/13/1999 +0200, Wang, Dapeng wrote: >I'm testing lotusxsl to apply transform XML to HTML. I used entities like >ö for german umlauts, which lotusxsl complains that it is undefined. I >think there must be some file containing the standard entity definitions. >Can anybody tell where I can find it and how to include it. Check James Tauber's schema.net site, particularly: http://www.schema.net/entities/ Lots and lots of entity definitions there, all of them (I believe) prepared by Rick Jelliffe. There are also instructions there on including them in your own DTDs, although the instructions focus on SGML rather than XML (i.e. on using public rather than system identifiers). Basically, in an XML DTD the idea is to define an external parameter entity for each entity set you want to use, then refer to that parameter entity in the DTD. Something like this: %addedlatin1; ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Srinivasan_KS at inf.com Fri Aug 13 15:11:55 1999 From: Srinivasan_KS at inf.com (Srinivasan_KS) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: How to get the text kept between two xml tags Message-ID: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D5FF@TWRMSG01> I want to get the information kept between xml tags or attributes. How do I do this using EXPAT. For EG:- INFO1 INFO2 How to extract INFO1 and INFO2 and store it in some other fil Regards, Srini xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Claude.Pasquier at sophia.inria.fr Fri Aug 13 15:26:11 1999 From: Claude.Pasquier at sophia.inria.fr (Claude Pasquier) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML/XSL->XML: how to add ???? Message-ID: <37B41D92.B9DCCE0A@sophia.inria.fr> "W. Eliot Kimber" wrote: > > Claude Pasquier wrote: > > > > "E.L. Willighagen" wrote: > > > > > > Does anyone know how to add a line when converting XML to XML > > > with a XSL? > > > > > > Cannot find it in the W3C WD, nor in any newsgroup/maillist. > > > > > > Egon > > > > > > > You may write it like this : > > <!DOCTYPE ... > > I don't think this will work. The latest WD is clear that < in the > input will be quoted in the output. I tested with iXSLT (just because it > was the closest to hand) and that's what it did. Our analysis is that > XSL provides no mechanism for creating DOCTYPE declarations. I think > this is a serious flaw in the current design. It works with the XSL processor of SAXON, but it's true that this point (the creation of DOCTYPE declation with XSL) is not addressed in the current W3C WD. Claude xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From miguelescobar at hotmail.com Fri Aug 13 15:52:26 1999 From: miguelescobar at hotmail.com (Miguel Escobar) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: WIDL (Web Interface Definition Language) Message-ID: <19990813135418.53494.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I'm searching for a XML application called WIDL (Web Interface Definition Language). A few year ago, this application was in the www.webmethods.com. Do you where I can't gegt this application. Thank... Miguel Escobar MLIS McGill University---CANADA ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From b.laforge at jxml.com Fri Aug 13 16:11:19 1999 From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: MDSAX release 1.2: validation Message-ID: <000901bee596$3d6f1de0$c8a8a8c0@thing1.jxml.com> This last release, MDSAX 1.2, now fully supports data validation, including element content (the piece that was missing from 1.1) and data validation. Application-specific validation is achieved by specifying JavaBean PropertyEditors for various attributes and other content. But because of the way the PropertyEditors are specified (in the ContextML document), we have actually extended the capabilities of Property Editors, as they are configurable. (One example included in the release is a PropertyEditor for fixed-length strings. When specifying the PropertyEditor, one also configures the properties on that editor, which in this case would be the length.) MDSAX is Open Source. Your participation in its development is welcomed. http://www.jxml.com/mdsax/index.html Bill xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in Fri Aug 13 16:29:06 1999 From: rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in (rajnishm@delhi.tcs.co.in) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: CPL Parser Message-ID: Hi, I m interested in using the features of Call Processing Language which is based on XML language. How can i use the existing XML Parser available in JAVA ? Do we have some CPL Parser available?? It will be very nice if someone could help me in that Thanks Rajnish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990813/df254290/attachment.htm From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Fri Aug 13 16:29:15 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XMLSchemas <-> JavaTypes mappings Message-ID: <001001bee598$8b25e9e0$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> What mappings from XML schemas (of any flavor) to Java types (any combination of object types and primitive types) are in use today? What mappings from Java types to XML schemas are in use today? Thanks, Mike Spreitzer http://parcweb.parc/spreitze/ (Xerox internal) http://www.parc.xerox.com/spreitze/ (external) +1-650-812-4833 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Fri Aug 13 17:20:51 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: WIDL (Web Interface Definition Language) In-Reply-To: <19990813135418.53494.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: There was a member submission of the WIDL spec to the W3C a while back, so it should be linked from http://www.w3.org/Submission/ [time passes] Ah yep, here you go: http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-widl.html Don't know about implementations though, other than whatever you can (or apparently can't) find at www.webmethods.com. Dan On Fri, 13 Aug 1999, Miguel Escobar wrote: > Hi, > I'm searching for a XML application called WIDL (Web Interface Definition > Language). A few year ago, this application was in the www.webmethods.com. > Do you where I can't gegt this application. > > > Thank... > > > Miguel Escobar > MLIS > McGill University---CANADA > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Fri Aug 13 17:34:28 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML2HTML Message-ID: Hi, I'm trying to transform XML to HTML with different layouts using different XSLs. The idea is to seperate date content from the date representation. But I'm not sure which kind of information belong to content and which to representation. For example a simple XML First Second The first XSL which uses the href information:
The second XSL leaves the href information unused and just prints out the text
Everything works fine until now. But what if I want to use a image instead of the text ina third layout. I have two possibilities. 1. Write the whole stuff in XSL. e.g here comes the whole HTML with images. All hard coded.

2. Extend the XML to include the image attribute. First Second and change the XSL to Of course, the second approach allows to handle the layouts in a generic way, which is quote suitable for further changes.(e.g. add one more LINK etc.) But the XML document must also be very generic to ensure the fact, that it delivers the values for all possible uses. E.g. if I want to call a script function onClick, I have to then specify it it the XML too, or the image height and image width). This will end in a very complex XML with a lot of information for all possible cases, but the information will not be used for most cases. I'm also not sure whether the information like image height and image width is layout specific or real data content. I'm glad to hear any opinion and suggestions. Dapeng Wang xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jlatone at fantastic.com Fri Aug 13 18:29:57 1999 From: jlatone at fantastic.com (Joseph A. Latone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML/XSL->XML: how to add ???? In-Reply-To: <37B40C68.DCB19ADB@sophia.inria.fr> Message-ID: With LotusXSL, I found that if I put the following in the XSL ]]> and use the -XML and -STRIPCDATA (formatting) options, then I'll get this in the output Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Claude Pasquier > Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 5:16 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: XML/XSL->XML: how to add ???? > > > "E.L. Willighagen" wrote: > > > > Does anyone know how to add a line when converting XML to XML > > with a XSL? > > > > Cannot find it in the W3C WD, nor in any newsgroup/maillist. > > > > Egon > > > > You may write it like this : > <!DOCTYPE ... > > Claude. > > -- > Claude Pasquier > Lemme Project > e-mail: Claude.Pasquier@sophia.inria.fr INRIA > Sophia Antipolis > Tel. : +33 (0)4 92 38 76 32 2004 route des > Lucioles - BP 93 > 06902 SOPHIA ANTIPOLIS > Cedex - FRANCE > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rcuevast at netscape.net Fri Aug 13 23:33:01 1999 From: rcuevast at netscape.net (Roberto Cuevas) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: Attribute question Message-ID: <19990813213544.2101.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net> Can someone tell me if there is a way to set something like this? (space) | I need that "distribution" just have this values ********************************************************************* Can I set an attribute like this? I try to qualify the input format start (([1-9][0-9]*) | ([0-9]+.[0-9]+)) #REQUIRED Thanks.. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mookie at unagi.undef.com Sat Aug 14 02:31:28 1999 From: mookie at unagi.undef.com (mookie@unagi.undef.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:17 2004 Subject: XML::Parser and numeric entities In-Reply-To: <37B41D92.B9DCCE0A@sophia.inria.fr> Message-ID: Anybody know how I can get XML::Parser pass along entities like é? I'm just translating my XML into HTML, so it'd be convenient. use strict; use XML::Parser; my $p = new XML::Parser(Style => 'Debug'); $p->parse('sauté'); \\ () element || s element || a element || ut element || #xC3;#xA9; // that's supposed to be "saute" with an acute accent over the e. what the heck is C3A9? thanks xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Sat Aug 14 06:19:22 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XML::Parser and numeric entities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Aug 1999 mookie@unagi.undef.com wrote: > Anybody know how I can get XML::Parser pass along entities like é? > I'm just translating my XML into HTML, so it'd be convenient. > > > use strict; > use XML::Parser; > > my $p = new XML::Parser(Style => 'Debug'); > $p->parse('sauté'); > > \\ () > element || s > element || a > element || ut > element || #xC3;#xA9; > // > > that's supposed to be "saute" with an acute accent over the e. > what the heck is C3A9? It's the UTF-8 representation of the character whose ISO-8859-1 codepoint is 233. Remember that regardless of the input encoding, XML::Parser always returns its results in UTF-8. If you need to output in another encoding, you'll have to translate it. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in Sat Aug 14 11:00:26 1999 From: rajnishm at delhi.tcs.co.in (rajnishm@delhi.tcs.co.in) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: Application using XML Parser Message-ID: Hi, Can anybody guide me how to use the event driven parser in a JAVA Application. I mean how shall the parser output should be stored and the switches ( if defined in the script ) can be implemented. Is there is a standard way of doing this. Actually im working on CPL which uses the XML syntax. Can somebody tell me the sight where an appliation build using XML Parser can be seen. Anticipating help from ur side. Thanks n Regards Rajnish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990814/b820b364/attachment.htm From Srinivasan_KS at inf.com Sat Aug 14 12:58:20 1999 From: Srinivasan_KS at inf.com (Srinivasan_KS) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: How to get field values and attribute values for a xml document u sing EXPAT? Message-ID: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D601@TWRMSG01> Hi, We have xml file like produced below. &#149 Format: mi_edi_ref_name_format And we need a kind of output as below. Please note that in some places we need the tag itself and some other places we need the text kept between the tags. MI_PROD_DESC_LIVE="0" MI_PROD_DESC_REMOVED="0" MI_PROD_DESC_HEAD COLOR="0" SIZE="4" ALIGN="0" STYLE="0" &#149 MI_PROD_DESC_TEXT COLOR="0" SIZE="4" ALIGN="0" STYLE="0" Format: mi_edi_ref_name_format We are using EXPAT for doing this.Can any body tell which APIs we have to call and the way it should be called to achieve the result. Regards, Srini xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Albrecht.Schmidt at cwi.nl Sat Aug 14 17:21:08 1999 From: Albrecht.Schmidt at cwi.nl (Albrecht Schmidt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: How to get field values and attribute values for a xml document using EXPAT? In-Reply-To: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D601@TWRMSG01> References: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D601@TWRMSG01> Message-ID: <14261.35282.909398.686150@kiel.cwi.nl> >>>>> "Srinivasan" == Srinivasan KS writes: -- snip -- Srinivasan> We are using EXPAT for doing this.Can any body tell Srinivasan> which APIs we have to call and the way it should be Srinivasan> called to achieve the result. -- snip -- You might want to try something like this. It should be close to what you want (it's a modified $(EXPATHOME)/sample/elments.c): #include #include "xmlparse.h" void startElement(void * user_data, const char * name, const char ** atts) { int i; if (atts) for (i = 0; atts [i]; i += 2) printf ("%s=\"%s\"\n", atts[i], atts[i+1]); } void endElement(void * user_data, const char * name) {} int only_whitespace (const XML_Char * s, int len) { /* return true if first len characters of s are whitespace; used for filtering out uninteresting tokens -- watch your encoding */ int i; for (i = 0; i < len; i++) if (!isspace (s[i])) return 0; return 1; } void do_character_data (void * user_data, const XML_Char * s, int len) { if (!only_whitespace (s, len)) { int i; for (i = 0; i < len; i++) putchar (s[i]); printf ("\n"); } } int main() { char buf[BUFSIZ]; XML_Parser parser = XML_ParserCreate(NULL); int done; int depth = 0; XML_SetUserData(parser, &depth); XML_SetElementHandler(parser, startElement, endElement); XML_SetCharacterDataHandler(parser, do_character_data); do { size_t len = fread(buf, 1, sizeof(buf), stdin); done = len < sizeof(buf); if (!XML_Parse(parser, buf, len, done)) { fprintf(stderr, "%s at line %d\n", XML_ErrorString(XML_GetErrorCode(parser)), XML_GetCurrentLineNumber(parser)); return 1; } } while (!done); XML_ParserFree(parser); return 0; } compile with (under UNIX): gcc -I../xmlparse -o e ../xmlparse/*.o ../xmltok/*.o e.c execute with: e < some_xml_file.xml Regards, Al. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From iusexml at hotmail.com Sat Aug 14 18:13:30 1999 From: iusexml at hotmail.com (prashant tupe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XSL to PCL help..... Message-ID: <19990814161515.39879.qmail@hotmail.com> Does anybody know how to convert output from xml file(xsl stylesheet) to a pcl file? IS there any special software for that? I am designing statements using XML-XSL but I have to take printouts from unix. Prashant. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Sat Aug 14 20:39:10 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XSL to PCL help..... In-Reply-To: <19990814161515.39879.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990814142554.00be9cc0@nexus.polaris.net> At 11:15 AM 08/14/1999 -0500, prashant tupe wrote: >Does anybody know how to convert output from xml file(xsl stylesheet) to a >pcl file? IS there any special software for that? A couple of companies provide software (commercial) to go in the other direction -- PCL to XML -- but I don't know of any that do what you're looking for, or whether they process XSL (assuming you mean converting XSL formatting objects to PCL commands). You might want to contact them to see if their tools could be re-engineered: Visual Software: http://www.visual.co.uk/ PageTech: http://www.pcltools.com/ Could probably do this in Perl/Python/etc., too, although again AFAIK no one has done so yet. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Sun Aug 15 06:44:55 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: Fw: XML for newbies - modified Message-ID: <004701bee6d8$d8d1b8e0$334ffea9@litebook> ----- Original Message ----- From: Trevor Croll To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Sent: Friday, August 13, 1999 10:13 AM Subject: XML for newbies - modified www.ioz.com.au/xml changes made include no lowercase characters in names, no spaces in names some rearrangement of content Hope you all find it OK now - I did not bother much with presentation - I went for content so it is a bit drab - good luck -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990815/28a0e9b0/attachment.htm From paul at qub.com Sun Aug 15 08:09:16 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: Fw: ANN. XSL FO Rendering Parade. Message-ID: <006701bee6e5$69655360$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii> ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Tchistopolskii To: Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 11:09 PM Subject: ANN. XSL FO Rendering Parade. > > > For last months we were writing XSL FO rendering > engine. It is now in alpha ( *not* pre-alpha), and it > would become beta *soon*. We are not supporting > tables yet, but we are not scared with tables ;-) > Images, lists, footnotes, complex layouts, different > page-orientations e t.c. - we already have it. > > http://www.renderx.com > > Now contains more than 30 testcases with > source code and results of rendering to PDF > More tetscases would appear soon. > > I suggest visiting that page if you want > to get some feeling about XSL FOs in > action. > > Rgds.Paul. > > PS. I would be very glad to know about any other > XSL FO implementation that is not in pre-alpha > stage. Sometimes I have a strange feeling that > there is only 3 .fo documents in this world ( and > 2 of them are buggie ). Well - now there is at > least 30 .fo documents ;-) > > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > paul@pault.com XMLTube > http://www.renderx.com Perl/JavaConnector > http://www.pault.com PerlApplicationServer > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Mon Aug 16 01:25:43 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: Paper or article on XSLT In-Reply-To: <37AAACF1.AD8C5E77@appeal.se> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990815191138.009a4ae0@CraneSoftwrights.com> At 99/08/06 05:37 +0200, David Lindholm wrote: >I would like to read a good paper or article on XSLT, apart from the >Working Draft on W3's site. Does anyone have a recommendation on where >I should look, or maybe even an URL to an article? I wrote an article for XML.com at: http://www.xml.com/1999/04/holman/gkh-19990418.htm A follow-up article was never published but is available on our web site in the section related to reading material. Our web site also has a freely downloadable preview of our training material ... the free preview includes a number of diagrams and four complete modules. Subscribing to the following is of immense value: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list One of the postings to that list includes a number of XSLT resources: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg06313.html I hope this helps. .......... Ken -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Practical Transformation Using XSLT and XPath ISBN 1-894049-01-2 Next instructor-led training: MS'99 1999-08-16 MT'99 1999-12-05/06 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 16 02:23:09 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: xml-dev Digest V1 #343 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601bee77e$899213a0$0a000a0a@csg> > Morten Christensen on 08/05/99 06:38:22 PM > Does anybody know of good Content Management Systems (CMSs) with: Allaire, http://www.allaire.com/ has been making noise in this regard. Their new product Spectra is said to be a roles-based content management system and is moderately priced. Allaire also recently acquired JRun who had made lots of rain with their Java Server Pages. Allaire has also pioneered something they call Web Distributed Data eXchange or WDDX which uses XML for serialized data publishing, where serializing as I understand it is intended to support syndicated publishing. I also have come to perceive this effort to provide an interface between disparate data structures. Please let us all know what you think after taking a look at their product platform. -- Regards Clinton Gallagher http://www.metromilwaukee.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From droddey at charmedquark.com Mon Aug 16 03:51:08 1999 From: droddey at charmedquark.com (Dean Roddey) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: illegal namespace usage Message-ID: <000001bee78b$739a1220$6679a8c0@cqs_pdc.charmedquark.com> >Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >> I've concluded that namespaces itself is a great idea. I've also concluded >> that integrating it with XML 1.0 in any reliable way is pretty much >> impossible. > >Please explain this statement. I agree with Simon. Here's an example: If you are validating, then all attributes used by an element must be defined as legal attributes for that element. However, that's totally in conflict with what namespaces are supposed to be for. If I have to predefine xmlns:foo, then you *have* to use foo as the prefix. But the prefix is supposed to be up to you (i.e. its not important, only what it maps to is important.) To me, this is a pretty bad conflict. I'm currently of the opinion that the validation should skip them except to check (if they are defaulted or fixed) that they have the correct predefined value. Am I missing something on this front? And, if you decide that you don't force them to be predefined, do you tell the application about them? If you don't force them to be defined, then they are really just infrastructure and not part of any content model. If you then pass them to the app, it has to explicitly skip over them (more overhead.) If you don't, then it cannot recreate the document. And of course there are all the issues with DTDs that are really bad. About half the time you deal with them lexically and half the time logically, which is not good for anyone. And Schema introduces some other issues, such as: 1) You scan a start tag QName 2) YOu scan the attributes for xmlns attributes and update your namespace map 3) You then look up the element in the pool via its {uri}name. 4) Then you find out that it defined an xmlns attribute that would have mapped its own prefix to something different. This is a catch-22 that cannot be gotten around if you follow the namespace rules (which allows an element's attributes to affect its prefix) and the XML 1.0 rules (which allows for fixed or defaulted attributes.) Some have argued that Schema is a non-issue since its not XML 1.0 and therefore it cannot default/fix attributes, but certainly that functionality looks to be part of the Schema spec if it is going to reasonably be used in many places. -------------------------- Dean Roddey The CIDLib Class Libraries Charmed Quark Software droddey@charmedquark.com http://www.charmedquark.com "100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it" xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From droddey at charmedquark.com Mon Aug 16 03:51:09 1999 From: droddey at charmedquark.com (Dean Roddey) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? Message-ID: <000101bee78b$74672620$6679a8c0@cqs_pdc.charmedquark.com> >I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any comparison >available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ and expat. > In my own defense... :-) XML4C2 isn't *that* new by now. Yes, like any complex software it has some bugs, but its coming along nicely and its quite flexible as to where you use the 'out of the box' stuff or the 'roll your own' stuff (and getting more so.) As of the new release (2.3, which isn't on Alphaworks yet I don't think but its on the way there), I think we are on about 10 platforms and compiler combinations with more being done all the time. -------------------------- Dean Roddey The CIDLib Class Libraries Charmed Quark Software droddey@charmedquark.com http://www.charmedquark.com "100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it" xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From khaitan at trapezo.com Mon Aug 16 04:43:22 1999 From: khaitan at trapezo.com (khaitan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: Application using XML Parser References: Message-ID: <004e01bee791$c73b77b0$0d64a8c0@trapezo.com> Application using XML ParserYou can try Javasoft's implementation of SAX APIs. The documentation is helpful but little though - khaitan ----- Original Message ----- From: rajnishm@delhi.tcs.co.in To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Sent: Saturday, August 14, 1999 2:01 AM Subject: Application using XML Parser Hi, Can anybody guide me how to use the event driven parser in a JAVA Application. I mean how shall the parser output should be stored and the switches ( if defined in the script ) can be implemented. Is there is a standard way of doing this. Actually im working on CPL which uses the XML syntax. Can somebody tell me the sight where an appliation build using XML Parser can be seen. Anticipating help from ur side. Thanks n Regards Rajnish -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990816/50785ba1/attachment.htm From khaitan at trapezo.com Mon Aug 16 05:10:50 1999 From: khaitan at trapezo.com (khaitan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? References: <000101bee78b$74672620$6679a8c0@cqs_pdc.charmedquark.com> Message-ID: <006c01bee795$a6a33610$0d64a8c0@trapezo.com> try this http://www.xml.com/pub/Benchmark/exec.html ----- Original Message ----- From: Dean Roddey To: Sent: Sunday, August 15, 1999 7:02 PM Subject: re: comparison between XML C/C++ parsers? > >I'm trying to decide which XML C/C++ parser to use. Is there any > comparison > >available? In particular, comparison between IBM4C++ and expat. > > > > In my own defense... :-) XML4C2 isn't *that* new by now. Yes, like any > complex software it has some bugs, but its coming along nicely and its quite > flexible as to where you use the 'out of the box' stuff or the 'roll your > own' stuff (and getting more so.) > > As of the new release (2.3, which isn't on Alphaworks yet I don't think but > its on the way there), I think we are on about 10 platforms and compiler > combinations with more being done all the time. > > -------------------------- > Dean Roddey > The CIDLib Class Libraries > Charmed Quark Software > droddey@charmedquark.com > http://www.charmedquark.com > > "100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it" > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From egonw at sci.kun.nl Mon Aug 16 11:19:42 1999 From: egonw at sci.kun.nl (E.L. Willighagen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: no DOCTYPE in XSL Message-ID: <199908160922.LAA06680@studs3.sci.kun.nl> i agree, this is a flaw... to anyone on the W3C working group on XSLT: why hasn't a been developed? I guess there is a reason... Egon PS. i carbon copied this message to James Clark, editor of the working draft on XSLT xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Mon Aug 16 12:26:07 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: no DOCTYPE in XSL References: <199908160922.LAA06680@studs3.sci.kun.nl> Message-ID: <37B7E75F.7F9847E9@jclark.com> The XSLT WD that has just been released allows a stylesheet to output a DOCTYPE declaration with a specified system and public identifier by using the doctype-system and doctype-public attributes on the new xsl:output element. See http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#output "E.L. Willighagen" wrote: > > i agree, this is a flaw... > > to anyone on the W3C working group on XSLT: why hasn't a been > developed? I guess there is a reason... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 16 12:49:51 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: White Space In-Reply-To: References: <14257.59297.747591.676156@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14263.60588.415240.856108@localhost.localdomain> arkin writes: > A generic SAX parser has two methods of reporting character data, one > clearly indicates that such character data is whitespace. What type of > whitespace should be reported as whitespace? Can the application simply > ignore whatever character data is reported as whitespace? The only whitespace reported that way is whitespace in element-only content: that means that there has to be a DTD, and the DTD has to say that an element can contain only other elements. This is a reporting requirement for validating parsers from the XML 1.0 recommendation. It's up to the application to decide whether to ignore the whitespace. A non-validating processor may report the same characters as regular character data. > The XML specification clearly indicates some guidelines for handling > white space in a consistent manner that saves the application developed > from dealing with it, and will solve all of our problems (maybe except > world hunger). Would it be reasonable to define two SAX parser layers, > one before and one after the white space stripping? You can use the same API for both, but any whitespace stripping must be strictly at the application's discretion. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Mon Aug 16 13:37:52 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XSL Template Message-ID: Is there any difference between and xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jhb at software-ag.de Mon Aug 16 14:30:08 1999 From: jhb at software-ag.de (Harbarth, Juliane) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XSL Template Message-ID: <005355AD0596D211B4F30000F81B0D3201A2C35B@daemsg01.software-ag.de> > Is there any difference between and > The first, i.e. states, that the template is instantiated for all 'plant' element descendents of the document root, i.e. all 'plant' elements in the same document as the context note. (See XPath draft, 2.3 Abbreviated Syntax). The second pattern '/.//plant' does not make much sense to me. './/plant' selects all 'plant' element descendants of the context node, the context node being set to the document root by the preceding '/'. So, yes, it is the same. Regards, Juliane. PS : It might be better to send questions concerning XSL to the XSL mailing list, see XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Mon Aug 16 14:48:15 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:18 2004 Subject: XML Bible/2nd Edition of XML:Extensible Markup Language Message-ID: I'm pleased to announce the release of The XML Bible, my latest book and one of the most comprehensive and up-to-date books available about writing Web pages with XML (and a few other topics too). The XML Bible is the second edition (in everything but name) of my previous best-seller, XML: Extensible Markup Language. However, topping out at over 1000 pages (vs. 400 for the previous book) there's more new material here than old. And all the older material has been substantially revised, rewritten, and expanded based on both reader comments and my own growing understanding of XML over the last year. The XML Bible costs $10 more than XML: Extensible Markup Language ($49.99 vs. $39.99) but for that $10 you get over two and a half times as much stuff, so I think it's a pretty good value. :-) The XML Bible is also up to date with all XML specifications as of July 1, 1999. Unfortunately several specifications for XSL, XLinks, and XPointers were revised July 9, 1999 just as the book was going to the printers. :-( I've posted revised versions of all affected chapters online at Cafe con Leche and plan to continue doing so as the various specifications grow and evolve toward their final incarnations. Today I'm working on revising those chapters once more to fit the August release of XSLT and XPath. The XML Bible should be available now at a bookstore near you including amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764532367/cafeaulaitA/ It's $49.99, ISBN 0-7645-3236-7, published by IDG Books, and written by me, Elliotte Rusty Harold. You can read more about it on my XML Bible page at http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/ or read on for a few more details. The XML Bible is a comprehensive introduction to XML for Web page design. It shows you how to write XML documents, validate them with DTDs, design CSS and XSL style sheets for those documents, convert them to HTML, and publish them on Web servers for the world to read. You'll also learn how to use XML technologies like RDF, XLinks, XHTML, and namespaces to add structure and organization to your document collections. And finally, you'll learn about the many uses of XML beyond the Web site, including genealogy, subscription services, mathematics, vector graphics, and more. Unlike most other XML books on the market, The XML Bible covers XML not from the perspective of a software developer but rather that of a Web page author. It doesn't spend a lot of pages talking about BNF grammars or parsing element trees. Instead it shows you how you can use XML and existing tools today to more efficiently and productively produce attractive, exciting, easy-to-use, easy-to-maintain Web sites that will keep your readers coming back for more. This book is aimed squarely at Web site developers. I assume you want to use XML to produce Web sites that are difficult to impossible to create with raw HTML. You'll be amazed to discover that in conjunction with style sheets and a few free tools, XML lets you do things that previously required either custom software costing hundreds to thousands of dollars per developer or extensive knowledge of programming languages like Perl. None of the software in this book will cost you more than a few minutes of download time. None of the tricks require any programming. The XML Bible should be available now at a bookstore near you including amazon.com . It's $49.99, ISBN 0-7645-3236-7, published by IDG Books, and written by me, Elliotte Rusty Harold. You can read more about it on my XML Bible page at +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sebastien.bouchet at axa.com Mon Aug 16 16:45:18 1999 From: sebastien.bouchet at axa.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?S=E9bastien_Bouchet?=) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: XSLT to generate badly-formed XML Message-ID: <00b401bee7f5$f54c1380$15240160@LON101843.dcsi.corp.intraxa> Hi all, no-one will be surprised by the following statement : It is possible to use XSL to generate badly-formed XML (i.e. with 2 or more high-level elements, for instance). To me, it is a feature of the XSL specs, not an omission. The problem is that some tools like Infoteria iXSLT (www.infoteria.com) are sold as "XML->XML conversion engine using XSLT". Therefore, iXSLT, without prompting fo your advice, adds the well-known following line to the output : Then, with an ad-hoc XSL stylesheet, you're able to output something like : which is obviously nonsense. The conclusion is : one mustn't be stupid, and must feed ixslt with a right stylesheet. Tell me : must Infoteria (and probably other vendors) be blamed for inserting the XML header on the top of non-XML files, or has the W3C already got an answer to that problem ? Apart from that, I'm pretty satisfied with it (I love the doc() function !), and everyone should have a look at www.infoteria.com Thanks for thinking about it S?bastien Bouchet sebastien.bouchet@axa.com /* Message above expresses personal views and opinions */ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Mon Aug 16 17:59:16 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: I'm on the edge and I need a push... In-Reply-To: <005355AD0596D211B4F30000F81B0D3201A2C35B@daemsg01.software-ag.de> Message-ID: Hi guys... OK, I'm close to recommending we stop building a home grown sort of templating scheme (that I'm building), and instead use XML/XSL to build websites for a client... Here are the few things that are holding me back right now... Most of the books I've read on XML/XSL use examples as follows: They take output from a database (converted to XML, of course) and then pretty up the output using XSL... This is great, however, a real site would need a little bit more, and would likely involve not just one XML doc per output page, but likely more than one: For example, if you go to Yahoo's home page: I see a lot of static info, to be sure, which would fit in < (blah blah blah) > < (blah blah blah) > But, some stuff, wouldn't fit so clearly: the ad for instance at the top under the Yahoo logo, the latest bids section and the latest news. To my way of thinking, these would each involve multiple database queries, and multiple database queries to me at least spells multiple XML docs. (I know, not necessarily, but, if you wanted to put arbitrary pieces of database _stuff_ on a page, you'd want to separate all the different data onto different "modules" and then just plug them into the page) How does one do this in XML/XSL? This is what I was thinking, but, again I'm still not sure how to go about doing it... Upon request the CGI/Servlet/API whatever generates an XML doc to encapsulate the request info, Something like
from here is where I'm sort of stuck... The closest I think of is having an XSL page which will be something like: [ Blah blah blah ] [ Blah blah blah ] [ Blah blah blah ] [ Blah blah blah ] [ Blah blah blah ] But, then, relatdlinks needs to take two XML docs, the CGI XML doc and _based_ on the CGI XML doc _generate_ another XML doc, which will then get converted to HTML, right? How is this being handled? Same for recentnews and mostrecent_bids, although, here, we likely wouldn't need the CGI XML doc... Also, what if the output is to have a framed page? Like, you submit to the CGI, and the output is to be a frame which needs to relay info about the CGI request? I guess another good eg is if you do a search on AltaVista, it generates the search results that you want, but it also generates "related searches" which are pretty clearly another database hit separate from the original search... (And on Yahoo, the ad banner at the top seem pretty clearly related to what you search for... For instance a search for wedding brings me back an ad for the weddingchannel.com at the top, and there are all these flower links on the right side of the page... I pretty much know how I'd do all these things if I were to go all out servlet /CGI/API whatever again, but, am not quite sure how to handle it with XML/XSL, without resorting somehow to an "impure" solution, involving Java/C/C++, in which case, I wonder about not being purely standards based, in which case, you know, what's the point? (I mean, like, if I were to write my own web server, that was 99 44/100 % pure HTTP, but, the extensions were only understood by the BineshBrowser what would be the point? The users would now be locked in to the Binesh Web Server/BineshBrowser combination, and wouldn't be able to take advantage of other tools to help them maintain/modify the site...) Ditto for extra HTML tags, as we all know from reading our XML books... The whole point of a standard (to me) is flexibility in choosing tools because everyone will code to those standards, right? Like I said, I'd rather build something built on standards than something homegrown, but from what I've read I haven't _yet_ seen a full eg. of something like this... and, I'd need to solve them before going that route... Thanks, Binesh Bannerjee xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Mon Aug 16 18:35:01 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: I'm on the edge and I need a push... Message-ID: <199908161635.JAA04791@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Binesh, Have a look at the Oracle XSQL Servlet at http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml It lets you build an XML "datapage", comprising arbitrary tag structure mixed-in with any number of database queries, then handles the XSLT transformation of that multi-query "datapage" into XML or HTML for delivery. The transformation can be done in the server or in the client, depending on the browser you're using and your desire as the programmer. Have fun. _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team BC4J: http://technet.oracle.com/product/tools/appjava/info/techwp20/wp.html XML: http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Binesh Bannerjee Subject: I'm on the edge and I need a push... Date: 16 Aug 1999 09:01:27 Size: 6334 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990816/f2e7a9d2/attachment.eml From jonsmirl at mediaone.net Mon Aug 16 18:43:19 1999 From: jonsmirl at mediaone.net (Jon Smirl) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: I'm on the edge and I need a push... References: Message-ID: <002b01bee806$c0243a00$0201a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> You would use the document(filename) function to merge together data from different sources. file A XSL sheet

this is Yahoo's home page

current stock price for SYBS is

This is implemented for sure in XT and Saxon, probably others too. Jon Smirl jonsmirl@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Aug 16 19:05:08 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space References: <14257.59297.747591.676156@localhost.localdomain> <14263.60588.415240.856108@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37B84555.8FBAA81@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > arkin writes: > > > A generic SAX parser has two methods of reporting character data, one > > clearly indicates that such character data is whitespace. What type of > > whitespace should be reported as whitespace? Can the application simply > > ignore whatever character data is reported as whitespace? > > The only whitespace reported that way is whitespace in element-only > content: that means that there has to be a DTD, and the DTD has to say > that an element can contain only other elements. This is a reporting > requirement for validating parsers from the XML 1.0 recommendation. Hmm, the XML spec never quite seemed clear about that to me. It didn't quite include a definition of the term "ignorable whitespace". What about an empty element " " ... isn't that "ignorable" whitespace as well? It "must be" passed to the app, and clearly isn't regular character text. FWIW I concluded "ignorable" whitespace is within elements that have a content model that's not "ANY" or a mixed content model. That is, it's wherever normal characters can't appear. > > The XML specification clearly indicates some guidelines for handling > > white space in a consistent manner that saves the application developed > > from dealing with it, and will solve all of our problems (maybe except > > world hunger). Would it be reasonable to define two SAX parser layers, > > one before and one after the white space stripping? > > You can use the same API for both, but any whitespace stripping must > be strictly at the application's discretion. Where "application" is a fuzzy notion: everything above the XML processor, which could primarily consist of library code that doesn't want to give such options to its callers. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Mon Aug 16 19:24:29 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: I'm on the edge and I need a push... Message-ID: Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > Most of the books I've read on XML/XSL use examples as > follows: They take output from a database (converted to XML, > of course) > and then pretty up the output using XSL... This is great, however, > a real site would need a little bit more, and would likely > involve not just one XML doc per output page, but likely more than > one: > > [snip] > > But, some stuff, wouldn't fit so clearly: the ad for instance at the > top under the Yahoo logo, the latest bids section and the latest news. > One simple additional step to take is to dynamically generate your XSL, just like you dynamically generate your XML. It is XML, after all. Then you end up with an XML doc that contains the bulk of the data for the page, and then an XSL document that contains the formatted 'container' for that data, with menus and so on, but with the advantage that much of the HTML in the rules has been added dynamically. We have used this technique on http://www.worldlink.co.uk/ if you want to have a look. (We are working on a much neater and more generalised solution, but I think the above plan caters for a lot of situations.) Regards, Mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 16 19:27:42 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990816102753.00968360@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:07 AM 8/16/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >Hmm, the XML spec never quite seemed clear about that to me. It didn't >quite include a definition of the term "ignorable whitespace". Correct, because it doesn't use the the term. Section 2.10 says: An XML processor must always pass all characters in a document that are not markup through to the application. A validating XML processor must also inform the application which of these characters constitute white space appearing in element content. Element content is a hyperlink to the formal definition of an element where the DTD says you can have only other elemennts. What's not clear here? -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Aug 16 19:48:38 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space References: <14257.59297.747591.676156@localhost.localdomain> <14263.60588.415240.856108@localhost.localdomain> <37B84555.8FBAA81@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37B84F5B.8F6E1B30@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > Hmm, the XML spec never quite seemed clear about that to me. It didn't > quite include a definition of the term "ignorable whitespace". No, it doesn't. But the kind of whitespace that SAX calls "ignorable" is the kind mentioned in the first sentence of Clause 3.2.1. It must be passed to the app, but is ignored for validation, and will often be ignored by apps as well (since it appears only in elements that are expected to have only element content), hence the name "ignorable". > What about an empty element " " ... > isn't that "ignorable" whitespace as well? It "must be" passed to the > app, and clearly isn't regular character text. Note that this element is not empty: it contains three spaces. If the DTD says that elements named "EMPTY" (as opposed to those declared EMPTY) have some kind of optional element content (for example, a content model like (FOO?)), then the whitespace would be ignorable. Otherwise not. > FWIW I concluded "ignorable" whitespace is within elements that have a > content model that's not "ANY" or a mixed content model. Or EMPTY either. EMPTY elements can't have *anything* between start-tag and end-tag; see clause 3.1. > Where "application" is a fuzzy notion: everything above the XML processor, > which could primarily consist of library code that doesn't want to give > such options to its callers. "Application" in the context of the XML Rec means "everything above the XML processor". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau, Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies. -- Coleridge / Politzer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us Mon Aug 16 21:00:23 1999 From: ken at bitsko.slc.ut.us (Ken MacLeod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: libxml-perl-0.05 Message-ID: libxml-perl-0.05 is making it's way to CPAN archive sites. libxml-perl is a collection of smaller Perl modules, scripts, and documents for working with XML. libxml-perl software works in combination with XML::Parser, PerlSAX, XML::DOM, XML::Grove, and others. HTML-rendered PODs can be found on the home page, Significant changes since libxml-perl-0.04: * Major update to the PerlSAX specification: * Added an introduction * Added a ``Deviations from the Java version'' section * Re-added the `set_document_locator()' handler method * Added arguments to method synopses * Attributed most of the content to the SAX 1.0 Java Implementation documentation * XML::Handler::XMLWriter: a new PerlSAX handler for writing readable XML (in contrast to Canonical XML). Similar to XML::Parser's Stream style * XML::Handler::Subs: a new PerlSAX handler base class for calling user-defined subs by element-name. Similar to XML::Parser's Subs style * XML::PatAct::ToObjects: added a CopyAttributes option and a `-grove-contents' action libxml-perl contains the following: Modules XML::Parser::PerlSAX XML::Handler::XMLWriter XML::Handler::Subs XML::Handler::Sample XML::Handler::CanonXMLWriter XML::ESISParser Data::Grove Data::Grove::Parent Data::Grove::Visitor XML::PatAct::ActionTempl XML::PatAct::Amsterdam XML::PatAct::MatchName XML::PatAct::PatternTempl XML::PatAct::ToObjects XML::SAX2Perl XML::Perl2SAX Documents PerlSAX Using PerlSAX Using PatAct Modules Creating PatAct Modules List of Perl XML modules by category, in XML -- Ken MacLeod ken@bitsko.slc.ut.us xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Mon Aug 16 21:06:14 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML In-Reply-To: <004701bee6d8$d8d1b8e0$334ffea9@litebook> Message-ID: So is anyone working on or has worked on the glue programming glue that lets one suck data from the SQL database into the XML doc ?? Or is this list just concerned with just starting from the XML document up to the web user ?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990816/4fc27ebd/attachment.htm From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Mon Aug 16 21:25:04 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML Message-ID: <199908161925.MAA06612@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> One option available is the Oracle XML SQL Utility for Java which handles the SQL-to-XML for you, and the Oracle XSQL Servlet that makes it easy to build XML documents which pull in the data from one or more queries... http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml Seems relevant to this list, sure... :-) _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team BC4J: http://technet.oracle.com/product/tools/appjava/info/techwp20/wp.html XML: http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Jim Garrett" Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML Date: 16 Aug 1999 12:01:48 Size: 3341 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990816/8eb8df23/attachment.eml From ken_north at compuserve.com Mon Aug 16 23:31:43 1999 From: ken_north at compuserve.com (Ken North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML Message-ID: <004401bee82e$d1643ea0$0500a8c0@platinum> From: Jim Garrett So is anyone working on or has worked on the glue programming glue that lets one suck data from the SQL database into the XML doc ?? Jim, The answer is yes, but there is a lot more development going on than simply querying tables and presenting the results as XML. 1. You can get a sense of what people are doing with Internet Explorer and ADO by following the Microsoft XML newsgroup (microsoft.public.xml). 2. If you are interested in server-side solutions, check out Oracle, IBM DB2, Informix, Object Design (ODI), and Bluestone. The first three are SQL products being extended to store and query XML documents -- i.e., they provide mappings between relational data and XML so you can do SQL queries across documents. Object Design has an XML store based on OODBMS technology, and Bluestone has an XML server (document server that integrates with SQL databases and ODI). xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 16 23:39:34 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990816144205.00972740@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:16 PM 8/16/99 -0700, arkin wrote: >> An XML processor must always pass all characters in a document that are >> not markup through to the application. A validating XML processor must >> also inform the application which of these characters constitute >> white space appearing in element content. >> >> Element content is a hyperlink to the formal definition of an element >> where the DTD says you can have only other elemennts. >> >> What's not clear here? -Tim >1. How does that relate to the spaces attribute and to the >default/preserve values? No interaction. The spaces attribute is a message from the author to downstream applications, that's all. >2. How does that relate to new line in the beginning/end of text >content? All newline combinations come to the app as a single LF character, which is white space and thus the spec paragraph quoted above applies. >3. What is the application and what is an XML processor? Is it possible >that a generic XML "parser" generating SAX/DOM can be both processor and >application? Uh, have you read the XML spec? The spec defines in some detail what an XML processor is. The application is any other software that's not the processor. The spec says *nothing* about what an application can or can't or must do. >4. Many applications do not care about whitespace, they only care about >the meaningful content. And many developers do not have the expertise to >strip away whitespaces properly. Is there anything we can do about it? If the answer was easy, it would be in the XML spec. It turns out to be very nearly impossible to write a set of rules that are useful across different application spaces and are still comprehensible to human beings. SGML fell apart completely in this area, and the people who wrote that were smart. For text that's going to be presented to humans, I think HTML browsers get it about right; but go try to write down the rules describing what they actually do and you'll see it ain't simple. And that's just one class of application. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From adam.eyler at natinst.com Mon Aug 16 23:48:02 1999 From: adam.eyler at natinst.com (adam.eyler@natinst.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Finding expat examples Message-ID: <862567CF.0077E7D4.00@notesmta.natinst.com> Can anyone point out any more usage examples of expat? I've seen the one that comes with the download, but I was wondering if there are any more out there that can be used as reference. Thanks. Adam. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 16 23:58:43 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19990816102753.00968360@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14264.34975.167484.82393@localhost.localdomain> arkin writes: [on XML 1.0 reporting requirements for whitespace in element content] > > What's not clear here? -Tim > > 1. How does that relate to the spaces attribute and to the > default/preserve values? It has nothing to do with it. > 2. How does that relate to new line in the beginning/end of text > content? It has nothing to do with it. > 3. What is the application and what is an XML processor? Is it possible > that a generic XML "parser" generating SAX/DOM can be both processor and > application? XML doesn't have any official processing model, so we have to try to interoperate nicely in a less formal framework. > 4. Many applications do not care about whitespace, they only care about > the meaningful content. And many developers do not have the expertise to > strip away whitespaces properly. Is there anything we can do about it? Yes -- create (or use) filters. If high-level packages like SAXON don't already have filters that do this kind of thing, then they will soon. There are two important points to note, however: 1. Whitespace stripping should never surprise an application -- it should happen only if the application explicitly requests it, or if the application's design itself requires it (as in the case of an HTML browser). 2. There are *many* ways to normalize whitespace, so it's not a matter simply of adding one method call somewhere. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Tue Aug 17 00:49:51 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: White Space References: <3.0.32.19990816144205.00972740@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37B89620.AAEBEF0C@allette.com.au> Tim Bray wrote: > If the answer was easy, it would be in the XML spec. It turns out to > be very nearly impossible to write a set of rules that are useful > across different application spaces and are still comprehensible to > human beings. SGML fell apart completely in this area, and the people > who wrote that were smart. I think "fell apart completely" is a bit strong, but I do agree that whitespace handling occasionally resulted in problems. In SGML we got used to overcoming them, as I'm sure we will in XML. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Tue Aug 17 01:18:32 1999 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML In-Reply-To: References: <004701bee6d8$d8d1b8e0$334ffea9@litebook> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990817091526.01544b10@203.41.126.17> At 05:01 17/08/1999 , Jim Garrett wrote: >>So is anyone working on or has worked on the >>glue programming glue that lets one suck data >>from the SQL database into the XML doc ?? >>Or is this list just concerned with just starting from >>the XML document up to the web user ?? Omnimark has the ability to access ODBC data sources as part of an XML processing operation. (Although, to my mind there are easier ways. Like writing a simple export in Delphi, etc that just writes the SQL data to XML. And then I use Omnimark to convert that to HTML, etc.) J ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Srinivasan_KS at inf.com Tue Aug 17 09:07:06 1999 From: Srinivasan_KS at inf.com (Srinivasan_KS) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Is it possible to get attribute/attribute value in an XML doc Message-ID: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D614@TWRMSG01> `Hi, We have one XML doc as produced below.We are using EXPAT parser . massImport massImport &#149 Format: mi_edi_ref_name_format We want to know whether it is possible to write/use individual functions to extract tag names tag parameters attribute names attribute values number of tag parameters Identify begin and end positions for a given tag Identify location of tags,parameters etc in the XML document Any pointers in this way will be helpful. Regards Raktim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Aug 17 09:42:36 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML Message-ID: <01BEE895.79914FD0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Jim Garrett wrote: > So is anyone working on or has worked on the > glue programming glue that lets one suck data > from the SQL database into the XML doc ?? > Or is this list just concerned with just starting from > the XML document up to the web user ?? I've written a set of Java packages, called XML-DBMS, for transferring data between XML documents and relational databases. XML-DBMS views the XML document as a tree of objects (element types are usually classes, and PCDATA and attributes are properties of those classes) and map these to the database with an object-relational mapping. Included in XML-DBMS is an XML-based mapping language used to define the object view and map it to the database. XML-DBMS is free for all uses and comes with source code. For more info and download, see: http://www.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/DVS1/staff/bourret/xmldbms/xmldbms .htm -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Tue Aug 17 16:07:48 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: 2 WAY - Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML and back again In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990817091526.01544b10@203.41.126.17> Message-ID: I suppose I should have stated this in the original "Programming "Glue Layer" . Is/has anyone working/worked on a programming glue layer between the RDBMS and the XML doc, so that it goes both ways in real time. So that the latest and greatest is always present in the RDBMS. I need the Glue to work in both directions. Or are all solutions just Glue out to XML and the standard POST back to the RDBMS for the return trip. Thanks Jim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Aug 17 17:01:24 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:19 2004 Subject: 2 WAY - Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML and back again Message-ID: <01BEE8D2.C86597F0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Jim Garrett wrote: > Is/has anyone working/worked on a programming glue layer > between the RDBMS and the XML doc, so that it goes both > ways in real time. > > So that the latest and greatest is always present in the > RDBMS. > > I need the Glue to work in both directions. > > Or are all solutions just Glue out to XML and the standard > POST back to the RDBMS for the return trip. XML-DBMS transfers data in both directions, using a DOM tree on the XML end. Whether this meets your requirement for "real time" is not clear. In particular, changes made in the DOM tree are not immediately reflected in the database or vice versa. Instead, the programmer must call a method to update the opposing media and the methods that do this transfer all the data, not just the changed data. This was an explicit design choice, as the software was really designed for simple data transfer. If you are looking for immediate reflection of changes, then what you need is a DOM implementation directly over a relational database. Although this has been discussed, I'm not aware of any implementations of it. Furthermore, this would be far more complex to implement than data transfer. For example, it would require the database to notify the DOM tree of changes. Since this isn't covered by JDBC, the code to do it would probably be database-specific, if the database supported such capabilities at all. Out of curiousity, if you do need immediate updates, what is your scenario? Except for writing a persistent DOM with a relational database as the data store, I'm having trouble imagining why anybody would need this. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de Tue Aug 17 17:36:57 1999 From: shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de (Robb Shecter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: WIDL (Web Interface Definition Language) References: <19990813135418.53494.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <37B98230.56C61A4C@darmstadt.gmd.de> Miguel Escobar wrote: > Hi, > I'm searching for a XML application called WIDL (Web Interface Definition > Language). A few year ago, this application was in the www.webmethods.com. > Do you where I can't gegt this application. I noticed this too - every mention of WIDL of has disappeared from the webmethods website. Not sure what conclusions to draw from this. I wrote a note to the webmaster asking what the secrecy was all about but never got a reply. Here's a couple of links to information I was able to scrounge up: http://www.xml.com/pub/w3j/s3.allen.html http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/r/WIDL - Robb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com Tue Aug 17 21:22:54 1999 From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEB6@THOR> I was wondering if anyone had suggestions on methods of analyzing or validating internal consistancy of XML documents. The type of validation that I'm concerned with goes beyond the types of validation possibly in the XML Schema drafts, this type of validation would involve comparison of multiple elements similar to the capabilities of EXPRESS or SQL constraints. For example, if you had a document like Charcoal White Brown A constraint could indicate that you can't wear brown shoes with a Charcoal suite. (The schema could indicate that you really should wear a pair of pants) A couple of options occured to me: 1) Typical procedural validation in a traditional language like VB or Java 2) XSL that would produce an exception report in XML or HTML 3) A combination of XSL pattern matching and procedural fragments written in Java, VBScript, or JavaScript. Any other suggestions? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmessner at messners.com Tue Aug 17 21:18:14 1999 From: gmessner at messners.com (Gregory M. Messner) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: WIDL (Web Interface Definition Language) References: <19990813135418.53494.qmail@hotmail.com> <37B98230.56C61A4C@darmstadt.gmd.de> Message-ID: <37B9B63F.45C8C4E6@messners.com> Try, http://www.webmethods.com/products/b2b/index.html. Robb Shecter wrote: > Miguel Escobar wrote: > > > Hi, > > I'm searching for a XML application called WIDL (Web Interface Definition > > Language). A few year ago, this application was in the www.webmethods.com. > > Do you where I can't gegt this application. > > I noticed this too - every mention of WIDL of has disappeared from the webmethods website. > Not sure what conclusions to draw from this. I wrote a note to the webmaster asking what the > secrecy was all about but never got a reply. Here's a couple of links to information I was > able to scrounge up: > > http://www.xml.com/pub/w3j/s3.allen.html > http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/r/WIDL > > - Robb > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jim.theriot at POSC.org Tue Aug 17 23:15:14 1999 From: jim.theriot at POSC.org (J C Theriot) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents In-Reply-To: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEB6@THOR> Message-ID: <001201bee8f1$ead14c20$1168b0d0@posc.org> Expanding on option 2: If there were a standard XML schema for constraint validation (CVML?), the constraints could be unambiguously documented in XSL, and the constraints could be applied with (more or less) existing tools. An application could examine the CVML tree and take appropriate action, and/or a subsequent XSL could format the tree into a constraint compliance report. Jim Theriot Petrotechnical Open Software Corporation jim.theriot@posc.org (713)267-5109 -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Arnold, Curt Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 1999 2:23 PM To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents I was wondering if anyone had suggestions on methods of analyzing or validating internal consistancy of XML documents. The type of validation that I'm concerned with goes beyond the types of validation possibly in the XML Schema drafts, this type of validation would involve comparison of multiple elements similar to the capabilities of EXPRESS or SQL constraints. For example, if you had a document like Charcoal White Brown A constraint could indicate that you can't wear brown shoes with a Charcoal suite. (The schema could indicate that you really should wear a pair of pants) A couple of options occured to me: 1) Typical procedural validation in a traditional language like VB or Java 2) XSL that would produce an exception report in XML or HTML 3) A combination of XSL pattern matching and procedural fragments written in Java, VBScript, or JavaScript. Any other suggestions? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Tue Aug 17 23:13:47 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Any XQL query engine for DOM in Java Message-ID: <19990817211544.51485.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi , I am looking for an XQL query engine for DOM objects in Java. If there are such free implementations please let me know about it. I will post a summary of the results Prakash Mandgi -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990817/42333b9d/attachment.htm From macherius at darmstadt.gmd.de Wed Aug 18 00:49:25 1999 From: macherius at darmstadt.gmd.de (Ingo Macherius) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Any XQL query engine for DOM in Java In-Reply-To: <19990817211544.51485.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <199908172251.AAA12395@sonne.darmstadt.gmd.de> Prakash Mandgi wrote at 17 Aug 99, 16:20: > I am looking for an XQL query engine for DOM objects in Java. If = > there are such free implementations > please let me know about it. I will post a summary of the results The complete list of XQL implementations is at [1]. Two of those are in Java, Ed Howland's OpenXQL [2] and our GMD-IPSI engine [3]. The latter is offered in an improved, commericalized version by Globit GmbH [4]. A bit on cons and pros. OpenXQL is a newcomer and not yet fully a fully blown implementation. A big pro is its strong bias towards the open source movement. The GMD-IPSI engine is around for more then half a year and has been downloaded hundreds of times. As a big pro it can deal with documents larger then main memory by using a persistent DOM store. It has, however, not been updated for a while because of the commericialization. Finally, the Globit product is the GMD-IPSI engine plus some additional months of development. It also offers extended features, see [5]. We believe it will be the first engine to support the upcoming XQL99 standard. The con is the price, starting from Euro 100 (personal version) to Euro 1500 (server license per CPU). ++im [1] http://metalab.unc.edu/xql/ [2] http://www.openxql.org/ [3] http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/ [4] http://www.globit.com/infonyte.htm [5] http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/extensions/ -- Ingo Macherius//Dolivostrasse 15//D-64293 Darmstadt//+49-6151-869-882 GMD-IPSI German National Research Center for Information Technology mailto:macherius@gmd.de http://www.darmstadt.gmd.de/~inim/ Information!=Knowledge!=Wisdom!=Truth!=Beauty!=Love!=Music==BEST (Zappa) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ed at coactive.com Wed Aug 18 07:48:15 1999 From: ed at coactive.com (Ed Koch) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <21875FDEF3A7D211994600805FC74FEF9E190E@AIRBAG> set xml-dev digest xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anands at tis.co.in Wed Aug 18 09:20:46 1999 From: anands at tis.co.in (Anand Subramanian) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Images in XML Message-ID: <37BA6284.4B7C82EC@tis.co.in> Hello all, This is my first posting. I have a image to be attached to the XML document. 1. How do I do it? When I move the mouse over the image the size should vary. How is this possible without refreshing the window? Thanks in advance Anand xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk Wed Aug 18 09:59:17 1999 From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: 2 WAY - Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML and back again References: Message-ID: <37BA767B.D164EC3B@bbc.co.uk> Jim Garrett wrote: > > I suppose I should have stated this in the > original "Programming "Glue Layer" . > > Is/has anyone working/worked on a programming glue layer > between the RDBMS and the XML doc, so that it goes both > ways in real time. > > So that the latest and greatest is always present in the > RDBMS. > > I need the Glue to work in both directions. > > Or are all solutions just Glue out to XML and the standard > POST back to the RDBMS for the return trip. [appologies for the late reply] If you're interested in a Perl solution, you could check out DBIx::XML_RDB on CPAN which does just this. However it needs a little work to be more complete - give me a shout if you're interested (in more work being done on it, not interested in doing the work!). Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From m.vedachalam at tatainfotech.com Wed Aug 18 11:08:43 1999 From: m.vedachalam at tatainfotech.com (M VEDACHALAM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Is there any website which uses XML Directly? Message-ID: Hello all... Greetings. I have come across websites which uses XML pages as datasource. But is there any website which has all its pages in XML. Then can i view them with IE and Netscape Navigator. Awaiting an early reply veda. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Aug 18 12:08:35 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Syntactic and conceptual schemas Message-ID: <01BEE973.06FA7260@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> I received the following questions privately. However, I think the answers (vague as they are) might be interesting to the list. Uwe Speck wrote: > In the W3C Note of the XML-Data Schema is written that there are > two types of Schema: syntactic and conceptual. > > URL: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data-0105/ > > "Schemas define the characteristics of classes of objects. This paper > describes an XML vocabulary for schemas, that is, for defining and > documenting object classes. It can be used for classes which as > strictly syntactic (for example, XML) or those which indicate concepts > and relations among concepts (as used in relational databases, KR graphs > and RDF). > *** The former are called "syntactic schemas;" the latter > "conceptual schemas." ***" > > The terms syntantactic and conceptual are NOT used in the W3C Schema > Note Part 1 Structures, but there seems to be the same intention: > > URL: http://www.w3.org/1999/05/06-xmlschema-1/ > > Par. 2.2 On schemas, constraints and contributions > > "XML Schema: Structures not only reconstructs the DTD constraints of XML 1.0 > using XML instance syntax, > > *** it also adds the ability to define new kinds of constraints. *** > > For example, although the author of an XML 1.0 DTD may declare > an element type as containing character data, elements, or mixed content, > there is no mechanism with which to constrain the contents of elements > to only character data of a particular form, such as only integers in a > specified range." ... > > So my questions: Good (and hard) questions. I'll do my best to answer them, but there's no guarantee my answers are completely correct. > 1) From my point of view, the paragraphs written above mean > exactly the same, but use different words. Is that true? I don't think so, but I'm not really sure. (To give you an idea of my confusion, I started out saying "maybe", then said "probably", then went back to "maybe", and ended up with "I don't think so".) Background ---------- In database theory, there are two different schemas -- the physical schema and the conceptual schema. The physical schema states how data is actually stored on the disk. The conceptual schema states how data appears to be organized from the user's point of view. For example, in a relational database, the conceptual schema declares how data is organized into tables and columns, what the data types of each column are, what the primary key / foreign key relationships between the tables are, and so on. The query engine accepts commands that use the conceptual schema. For example, in a relational database, the query engine accepts SQL statements to select, insert, update, and delete data and so on. The query engine then submits requests to the storage engine, which knows the physical schema. For example, the query engine might ask the storage engine for all the rows in the table named ABC; the storage engine looks at the physical schema and retrieves the data. Notice that the storage engine is translating here between the conceptual schema (which uses the concept of table) and the physical schema (which describes how data is stored on disk). Note also that the physical schema can be (and usually is) completely different from the conceptual schema. For example, it would be perfectly legal to store all data on disk as a sequence of strings: [table name][column name][row number][data value] where row number and data value are stored in string form. To find all data for a table, the storage engine could search through all of the data and return only the data for the requested table, which it would change to the data type of the column according to the conceptual schema. Of course, this would be horribly inefficient for a large database, but it shows you how much the conceptual schema and physical schema can differ. XML-Data -------- I believe the authors of XML-Data think of an XML document as physical storage and the XML specification as defining rules for this storage. That is, it has rules for where markup, white space, character data, and so on can appear. In this context, the DTD language is a language for defining physical schemas. In other words, it states what attributes belong to a given element type, the content models of element types, and so on. (To use the terms used by the XML-Data authors, XML defines the syntax for a class of languages -- that is, the legal structure of strings in the language. The DTD language is used to define the syntax for a particular XML language. In other words, a DTD is a "syntactic schema".) Thus, any schema information that does not directly affect physical storage is "conceptual" and needs to be interpreted by a layer above the storage engine (XML processor/parser). A good example of this is data types. All data in an XML document is stored as a string. Therefore, stating that the data type of a given element or attribute is integer is a "conceptual" operation, since conversion to/from strings and type checking is not performed at the storage (XML processor/parser) level, but at a higher level. Similarly, such things as the element type in XML-Data are conceptual constraints -- that is, constraints that must be enforced at a level higher than the storage engine. W3C XML Schemas --------------- On the other hand, I don't know if the authors of the W3C's XML Schemas see a difference between the constraints imposed by a DTD and other constraints. It appears that they view the constraints that can be written in the DTD language as a subset of the possible constraints. That is, I think that they think there are a large number of possible constraints (content models, lists of legal attributes, element type inheritance, data types, and so on), and that the DTD language supports some constraints; XML Schemas supports more of these constraints. Discussion ----------- One of the problems with XML is that the boundaries between physical and conceptual are not always clear. Technically, the specification only defines physical layout -- that is, the syntax of a legal XML document. Unfortunately, when people start to think about XML, they immediately start to think in conceptual terms: * Programmers usually think of an object model in which element types roughly correspond to classes and attributes correspond to properties of these classes. * Document authors usually think of a document model in which the physical layout corresponds to the conceptual model they have in their head (a book has a title, one or more authors, and one or more chapters; a chapter has a title and one or more sections; and so on). In both cases, an XML schema language (including the DTD language) can be viewed as a conceptual schema language as well as a physical schema language. For example, element types define physical structures (tags and legal children) but also can be used to define classes (in the programmer's case) or document parts such as chapters (in the document author's case). Similarly, archetypes in the W3C's XML Schemas can be thought of as a convenient shorthand (similar to parameter entities) for defining element types, but can also be used to define object inheritance. (The situation is further complicated by things like entities. In DDML, we thought of entities as physical constructs and element types, attributes, and notations as logical constructs. The reason for this was that processors are not required to inform applications of entity usage. Because we were only interested in logical (conceptual) constructs, DDML did not support entity definition. Thus, DDML was primarily a conceptual language. (Note that the other schema languages do support entity definition, although there has been strong support for removing these from the W3C's XML Schemas.)) I think that one reason for the physical/conceptual duality of schema languages (including the DTD language) is that XML only defines physical layout and people, who generally think in conceptual terms, want to express those concepts. Thus, they impose concepts on DTDs and schema languages, even when those languages were designed to express physical schema. An Answer (Finally) ------------------- So, to answer your question, I don't think that these two paragraphs are saying the same thing. On the other hand, I don't think they contradict each other. Instead, I think they are viewing the same question from two different angles. XML-Data's separation of syntactic schemas and conceptual schemas is useful because it makes very clear what XML can do and what it can't do. It also makes clear the responsibilities of the processor (processing syntactic schemas) and the application (processing conceptual schemas). On the other hand, the separation is not entirely relevant to application writers and document authors. The reason for this is that these people use the "syntactic" parts of schema languages to express concepts as well as physical layout. This seems to be the view taken by W3C's XML Schemas. I hope this helps to clarify, if not completely answer, your question > 2) Can we say, that the goal of *** every *** XML-Schema > language is, to support additional constraints compared to DTDs > - means every XML-Schema supports something like a > *** conceptual *** schema-principle! Or are the ** conceptual *** > Schema of XML-Data something extraordinary? Yes, I think you can say this. The only difference between XML-Data and the other schema languages is in this regard is that XML-Data explicit states what parts of their language apply at the XML document level and what parts apply at a higher level. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kurt.donath at lmco.com Wed Aug 18 14:40:44 1999 From: kurt.donath at lmco.com (Kurt Donath) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents References: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEB6@THOR> Message-ID: <37BAAA5A.A594479D@lmco.com> I'm not sure that XSL is the place to enforce constraints since it's for style. Constraints also probably shouldn't live in the XML document since they don't participate in the information space, but act upon it. Perhaps, in the same way that a document points to a schema and a style sheet, there should be a pointer to a set of methods that would describe these constraints or any other operations. "Arnold, Curt" wrote: > > > A couple of options occured to me: > > 1) Typical procedural validation in a traditional language like VB or Java > 2) XSL that would produce an exception report in XML or HTML > 3) A combination of XSL pattern matching and procedural fragments written in > Java, VBScript, or JavaScript. -- Kurt Donath 315.456.6276 Staff Systems Engineer Intranet: http://www.syr.lmco.com/~donath/ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Lockheed Martin - Enterprise Information Systems Systems Engineering / Webserv xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Wed Aug 18 15:31:06 1999 From: paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (adam moore) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Announce: ProtSuite - first developers beta release version Message-ID: The BioDOM project announces its first major software release: ProtSuite - A client-side customisable hypermedia system for linking into biomolecular databases. A collection of perl and perl/Tk scripts that use XML and DOM processing to convert text queries over biomolecular databases into a local XML repository of sequences and structures of interest to YOU. This is mainly a developers release, although all are free to download it, the program still has many rough edges, and should not be considered stable for long term use at this stage. The program is available under the GPL/Artistic license for FREE and is available from: http://ala.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/biodom/software/ The release includes all necessary associated perl modules and ancilliary programs. The program is currently UNIX only and has so far only been tested under Linux (SuSE 6.1). Please download it, have a look and then LET ME KNOW what you think - I would really appreciate all feedback. Known issues/bugs: The PDB parser is alpha and currently in revision The SwissProt parser has not fully been tested against the new release (38) There is no error reporting/debugging info. Adam Moore Virtual School of Molecular Sciences School of Pharmaceutical Science, University of Nottingham http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms/ Personal Page:http://www.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk/~paxamr/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Wed Aug 18 15:58:53 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents In-Reply-To: <37BAAA5A.A594479D@lmco.com> Message-ID: <001601bee982$20c2cc10$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> > I'm not sure that XSL is the place to enforce constraints > since it's for > style. Constraints also probably shouldn't live in the XML document > since they don't participate in the information space, but > act upon it. > Perhaps, in the same way that a document points to a schema > and a style > sheet, there should be a pointer to a set of methods that > would describe > these constraints or any other operations. Declarative constraints are what schemas are for! The W3C's XML Schema Working Group has already accepted as a requirement the ability to put "application-specific constraints" into schemas (see Structural requirement 5 in ). Let's not architect things that are "schema-like" but "not schemas"; let's make schemas able to say what we need them to say. Mike xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Wed Aug 18 16:09:07 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Output "<" with XSL. Message-ID: How can I output "<" as PCDATA in xsl? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Wed Aug 18 16:40:49 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Why no CDATA in XSLT. Message-ID: Hi, I'm facing the problem that I have to translate XMLs to some own designed markup languages similar to HTML. But the destination markup up language is not well formed in the sense of XML. So I have to output some ill-formed tags like in the XSL rules. But I think there is no way to output < and & as raw data. Neither is CDATA-section allowed. How can I solve this problem. I think CDATA-section is neccessary for XSLT, for people do not always translate one XML into another XML, but especially in this beginnng phase, also translate XML to non-XML like HTML. I knew that Microsoft has defined its own xsl:cdata. Is there any other tool which can handle it correctly. Thanks. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Wed Aug 18 17:00:26 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Transmitting CGI vars to an XML doc. In-Reply-To: <37BA6284.4B7C82EC@tis.co.in> Message-ID: Still on the edge here... What is the way that people here are using to send CGI parameters to an XML driven CGI? I was _thinking_ of dynamically "augmenting" the XML with things like etc... Then, I thought, this is a terrible idea, because all CGI vars would _HAVE_ to be defined in advance to the XML/XSL, since there is the possibility of say somebody expecting %cgi_binesh; to return something but binesh was never passed in as a CGI var, so %cgi_binesh; is not in the dtd, so the app craps out... How are people handling this? Is it custom coding around xml tags? I don't think will quite do what I want, since sometimes I might want to do ';/> or some such, which is what led me to parameter entities to begin with... Any ideas? Binesh * There's nothing wrong with me... http://www.panix.com/~binesh * * There's something wrong with the universe. http://www.hex21.com/ * * CGI/Java Consulting * * "I didn't just kill one... And I didn't just kill ten... I killed a * * thousand... I killed TEN THOUSAND... When mothers warned their children * * of monsters, it was ME they were talking about! I was the nightmare that * * kept them awake. I was death on a horse! And I didn't do it for land or * * for anything they had or did... I did it because I ENJOYED it... Is THAT * * what you wanted to hear?" * * Mythos to MacLeod - Highlander * xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Wed Aug 18 17:45:13 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Transmitting CGI vars to an XML doc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > Still on the edge here... > What is the way that people here are using to send CGI parameters > to an XML driven CGI/Servlet? Another problem I don't know how to deal with is that CGI vars can be multiply defined... For instance if in a checkbox... Say, where it's a set of features which I want to search on which will cause a database query for items containing _all_ those features... (Eg. What restaurants would you like to be included?
American Chinese Irish Italian French Japanese Thai
) Binesh * There's nothing wrong with me... http://www.panix.com/~binesh * * There's something wrong with the universe. http://www.hex21.com/ * * CGI/Java Consulting * * "I am Bane, and I could kill you... But death would only end your agony, * * and silence your shame... Instead I will simply break you..." -- Bane * xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 18 18:33:46 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: XML-QL vs XQL Message-ID: <19990818163547.12764.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi, I am looking for a position document regarding XML-QL vs XQL. I am looking for the following information regarding these standards -- Support querying XML - DOM documents -- Features Implemented -- Industry support -- Open Java - DOM implementations ;-) -- Leading standard. All the information / responses will be summarized and posted back to the XML dev newsgroup. Regards Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990818/9101eaf6/attachment.htm From binesh at hex21.com Wed Aug 18 19:10:09 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Transmitting CGI vars to an XML doc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Aug 1999, Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > What is the way that people here are using to send CGI parameters > to an XML driven CGI? Sorry for the endless clarifications, but I just ... Well, want to clarify. The way I'm thinking about approaching this is as follows: CGI request comes into Servlet. Servlet creates a "CGI_Descriptor" XML doc. Servlet passes CGI XML doc, Template XML doc, Template XSL doc to "Processor" Processor reads Template XML doc (via DOM) replaces CGI vars [ This is the part that's unclear to me. ] Processor spawns new processors to handle "Subtemplates" within template (which follows recursively this same procedure.) Processor uses XSL to create the output page, and sends this off to the browser. My unknowns are, how to represent in the Template XML doc CGI variables, and how people are handling XML in "subtemplates" that themselves may need to be processed further... Am I correct in thinking that adding say a " tag that is to expand into todays date would necessarily be a proprietary piece of code, that no standard XML browser would ever be able to read? (Although, a date one is far too simple, since that would likely be done with the ECMAscript in XSL...) It would be nice to be able to do "?> and then binesh_plugin would add whatever it needed to into the doc... If not, it's looking like I'll have to do something like so: Which then I'd write something using the DOM, that traverses the doc and looks for binesh_plugin, and replaces that node with whatever it thinks should be there instead... But I'd _hate_ to have to do this because anything I do with DOM would be opaque to a general XML style browsers... Again any help appreciated, thanks... (BTW, total Unix guy and microsoft-phobe here... So...) Binesh * There's nothing wrong with me... http://www.panix.com/~binesh * * There's something wrong with the universe. http://www.hex21.com/ * * CGI/Java Consulting * * I know it's all in vain * * I know that I'm to blame * * I know the purest rain * * Won't wash this bloody stain * * I know this sickness from inside * * Will tear us apart, tear us apart * * You're still in my heart tearing apart * * Tearing Apart - Siouxsie And The Banshees * xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com Wed Aug 18 20:07:01 1999 From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEBD@THOR> Mike Spreitzer wrote: >>Declarative constraints are what schemas are for! The W3C's XML Schema >>Working Group has already accepted as a requirement the ability to put >>"application-specific constraints" into schemas (see Structural >>requirement 5 in >>). Let's not >>architect things that are "schema-like" but "not schemas"; let's make >>schemas able to say what we need them to say. >> >>Mike The thread has followed a little convoluted path since I posted my original query. The original query was primarily targeted to currently available technologies to solve the specific problem, however I agree with you that the fundamental intention does fall under the requirements in the Schema working group and that the Schema would be an ideal place to express these constraints. The current working draft does propose a good selection of constraining facets for datatypes, regex or patterns for strings, minInclusive et al for ordered, list of acceptible literals for enumerations. What would complete the datatypes constraining facets would be support for a script type facet that would contain a JavaScript (or alternate) fragment and maybe an or to allow logical combinations of constraining facets. Of course, you would want to avoid the script facet if one of the other facets could express the constraint since a schema aware editor could give more direct guidance for violation of a minInclusive constraint for example. The next level up is a constraint on an element that would constraint, for example, the product of two attributes to be positive. These types of constraints would tend to be so open ended that the only reasonable solution is to be able to attach a series of script fragments that would be passed a reference to the element during processing. This type of constraint could still be validated by event based parsers. A schema aware editor could only enforce this type of constraint when exiting an element. The next level up would be a constraint on an element that constrains the content of elements that it contains. This type of constraint again would be best expressed in a script language, but could not be validated by an event based parser since at least the element and all of its children would need to be accessible through the DOM. There would need to be some mechanism for a processor to indicate what types of facets or constraints it can enforces and a mechanism for an application to indicate what facets or constraints it requires to be enforced, so that a lightweight processor (or an application that did not want to pay the processing cost) could forgo regex processing or script evaluation. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From adam.eyler at natinst.com Wed Aug 18 22:02:21 1999 From: adam.eyler at natinst.com (adam.eyler@natinst.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check Message-ID: <862567D1.006E4DE7.00@notesmta.natinst.com> Does anybody out there know if: 1. you have a well-formed xml file that you are parsing and validating. 2. a dtd file that validates the current xml file it is checked against. If you add a new tag that is not part of the DTD description, will an error result be given showing the the xml file is unable to be validated? Thanks. Adam Eyler xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lauzon at us.ibm.com Wed Aug 18 22:23:24 1999 From: lauzon at us.ibm.com (lauzon@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check Message-ID: <852567D1.00702FB5.00@D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com> To be a valid XML document, each tag that exists must correspond to a tag in the DTD. So if you add a tag which does not exist on the DTD, you will no longer have a valid XML document. You could, however, still have a well-formed document if you added the tag in a well-formed manner. So you could attempt to validate the given document, but the response should be that the document is not valid. Shawn Lauzon Does anybody out there know if: 1. you have a well-formed xml file that you are parsing and validating. 2. a dtd file that validates the current xml file it is checked against. If you add a new tag that is not part of the DTD description, will an error result be given showing the the xml file is unable to be validated? Thanks. Adam Eyler xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From breeze_beta at vsi.com Wed Aug 18 23:10:02 1999 From: breeze_beta at vsi.com (breeze_beta@vsi.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: New XML Tool Message-ID: <37BB220D.204F2BA6@vsi.com> VSI is proud to announce the availability of the Breeze Commerce Studio Beta Program Breeze Commerce Studio provides visual development tools that are used to design XML objects (documents), inspect and import existing data schema, and produce programming modules (libraries) for use in a business's application software. Breeze includes facilities that allow you to import, edit and compile an XML schema into one or more Java classes. These classes handle the translation between XML documents that follow the schema and interrelated instances of the generated classes. They also ensure that the constraints expressed in the schema are maintained in the instances of the classes. We are limiting our beta to a small group of participants in an effort to get more constructive and timely feedback. As a beta tester, you would be expected to spend time testing Breeze and to report your findings to VSI. Also, we will request that you complete a brief survey and be available for several short phone interviews. In return for your participation, VSI will provide you with the complete commercial release of Breeze Commerce Studio free of charge when it becomes available in late October 1999. If you would like the opportunity to experiment and influence this exciting new technology please reply to: breeze_beta@vsi.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 19 00:02:52 1999 From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: Simple DOM question Message-ID: <37BB2E27.35BFEBF9@auckland.ac.nz> Hi XML-DEV I'm trying to write a Java application where as many classes as possible only use the DOM API, and only a few use specific parsers. Anyway, say I read in something like and I then go and read "childElement.xml" and want to replace the in the original DOM with the I found in that file. A fairly common problem I'm sure. Unfortunately I didn't read the method detail for w3c.org.dom.Node.replaceChild(Node, Node) before starting, and found I'm not allowed to insert nodes from one document into another. Is there a mechanism within the DOM API to do this? I would like to use DCXJP's XQL-like selectNodes() method to perform searches through a tree assembled from a number of documents. If not in the DOM API, are there any common free parser toolkits (DCXJP, XML4J) that will let you do this kind of thing? Thanks in advance -- Warren Hedley Department of Engineering Science Auckland University New Zealand xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cerium at ibm.net Thu Aug 19 01:07:58 1999 From: cerium at ibm.net (John Hicks) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: 2 WAY - Programming "Glue Layer" between the database and XML and back again Message-ID: <000801bee9ce$dfa0ba60$9500a4d8@c31cj.cerium> Hi Jim: You might have a look at our XMLServlet and XMLdb. XMLServlet merges relational values into your XML and translates to HTML at the server via XSL. Return trip, as you surmised, posts an HTML form to update those relational values. Only HTML goes to and from the browser. Would that work for you? XMLServlet is also available as JavaBeans, if you wanted to extend that functionality yourself. XMLdb translates XML into corresponding relational structures. John Hicks Cerium Component Software XMLOutline | XMLdb | XMLServlet Fax 707-222-7651 http://ceriumworks.com "Software as a conversation with a community." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Thu Aug 19 01:36:14 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:20 2004 Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check References: <852567D1.00702FB5.00@D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com> Message-ID: <00b701bee9d3$1d039d60$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii> The easy workaround that I see is to add the new tag to the DTD with Rgds.Paul. PS. However, I still think that if would push parser not to check for existance of the *clilds* definitions in the DTD, but would realy mean 'anything that is well-formed is OK' it would make our lifes easier without introducing any ( even hypotetical) trouble. ANY is a hack anyway. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= paul@pault.com XMLTube http://www.renderx.com Perl/JavaConnector http://www.pault.com PerlApplicationServer =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= > To be a valid XML document, each tag that exists must correspond to a tag in the > DTD. So if you add a tag which does not exist on the DTD, you will no longer > have a valid XML document. You could, however, still have a well-formed > document if you added the tag in a well-formed manner. So you could attempt to > validate the given document, but the response should be that the document is not > valid. > > Shawn Lauzon > > > Does anybody out there know if: > > 1. you have a well-formed xml file that you are parsing and validating. > 2. a dtd file that validates the current xml file it is checked against. > > If you add a new tag that is not part of the DTD description, will an error > result be given showing the the xml file is unable to be validated? > > Thanks. > > Adam Eyler > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Thu Aug 19 01:48:43 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Simple DOM question In-Reply-To: <37BB2E27.35BFEBF9@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Aug 1999, Warren Hedley wrote: > I'm trying to write a Java application where as many classes as > possible only use the DOM API, and only a few use specific > parsers. Anyway, say I read in something like > > > > > > and I then go and read "childElement.xml" and want to replace > the in the original DOM with the > I found in that file. A fairly common problem > I'm sure. Such a common problem that the solution to it is built into the definition of XML itself (and XML inherited it from SGML). Just declare the child document as an entity in your internal DTD subset () and then reference it as %childElement; instead of creating a special element type to represent inclusion. That way the parser will transparently perform the inclusion rather than requiring the application logic to do it. I've noticed in recent days a tendency for people to propose using XLink or application-specific linking mechanisms to accomplish tasks that could just as well be handled by the entity mechanism. Let's not forget our roots. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 19 02:05:16 1999 From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Simple DOM question References: Message-ID: <37BB4AD9.96F05E78@auckland.ac.nz> Eric Bohlman wrote: > > Such a common problem that the solution to it is built into the definition > of XML itself (and XML inherited it from SGML). Just declare the child > document as an entity in your internal DTD subset ( SYSTEM "childElement.xml">) and then reference it as %childElement; > instead of creating a special element type to represent inclusion. That > way the parser will transparently perform the inclusion rather than > requiring the application logic to do it. > > I've noticed in recent days a tendency for people to propose using XLink > or application-specific linking mechanisms to accomplish tasks that could > just as well be handled by the entity mechanism. Let's not forget our > roots. You're right of course. I'm aware of this way of doing things. My example was probably a bit too simplistic. Say for example that we had some other information about the childElement declared within the parent: Some Info and I wanted the specified and @type attributes to over-ride the corresponding fields in "childElement.xml". As far as I know, this kind of behaviour is not supported in basic XML, but my application has to take of this itself. Any thoughts? Thanks. -- Warren Hedley Department of Engineering Science Auckland University New Zealand xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz Thu Aug 19 04:41:32 1999 From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Simple DOM question References: <37BB2E27.35BFEBF9@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <37BB6F56.5A0D8461@auckland.ac.nz> "Nathaniel W. Turner" wrote: > > I'm under the impression that one can't insert nodes into document A if they > are part of document B, unless one removes the node from document B using > the removeChild(Node) method. > > That's how I do it using Perl (XML::DOM), but I would hope that the DOM API > would be the same in Java. That's the point, right? Thanks for your help, but ... I haven't been able to get that to work - that is, even though I remove a node from its parent, I still cannot insert it into a document other than the one in which it was created. Can you post a PERL example where this works? And, more importantly, is it legal? My Java test code is included below - note I'm using the dcxjp parser to read it in, but otherwise using only DOM API calls. --- BEGIN JAVA CODE --- import com.datachannel.xml.om.Document; import org.w3c.dom.Element; import org.w3c.dom.Node; public class NodeInsertion { public static void main(String argv[]) { Document doc1=new Document(), doc2=new Document(); Element rootElementDoc1, rootElementDoc2; Node childDoc1, childDoc2; try { doc1.loadXML("" + ""); doc2.loadXML("" + ""); rootElementDoc1 = doc1.getDocumentElement(); rootElementDoc2 = doc2.getDocumentElement(); childDoc1 = rootElementDoc1.getFirstChild(); childDoc2 = rootElementDoc2.getFirstChild(); rootElementDoc2.removeChild(childDoc2); rootElementDoc1.replaceChild(childDoc2, childDoc1); } catch (Exception e) { System.err.println("An error occurred : " + e.getMessage()); e.printStackTrace(); } } } /* class NodeInsertion */ --- END JAVA CODE --- -- Warren Hedley Department of Engineering Science Auckland University New Zealand xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken_north at compuserve.com Thu Aug 19 09:05:09 1999 From: ken_north at compuserve.com (Ken North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XML One: E-commerce, and Enterprise Computing (Oct. 8) Message-ID: <005501beea11$33d6a080$0500a8c0@platinum> The XML One conference in London (October 6-8, 1999) will host a panel of experts discussing XML's role in e-commerce and enterprise computing. The panel includes W3C XML Working Group chairmen (Bill Smith and David Megginson) and Martin Bryan, the Technical Manager of the European XML/EDI Pilot Project. =============================================== XML's Role in Enterprise Computing and E-Commerce (October 8, London) This panel presentation discusses XML as an enabling technology for e-commerce and enterprise applications. XML is a key ingredient of new initiatives, such as Biztalk (Web commerce), but it is also moving into traditional application areas such as Electronic Data Interchange (EDI). The panel of experts will discuss business to business (B2B) integration, Web commerce, XML/EDI, XML servers, and XML-enabled databases. It will also discuss Enterprise Java and XML, and the combination of XML and messaging middleware. Panelists include: David Megginson Author and Chairman W3C XML Information Set Working Group Megginson Technologies Martin Bryan Technical Manager, CEN/ISSS European XML/EDI Working Group Founder, The SGML Centre Bill Smith Vice-President OASIS and Chairman W3C XML Linking Working Group Sun Microsystems Geoff Brown Architect of Oracle Message Broker David Booth Director of Technical Training Bluestone Software The panel moderator is Ken North, author, database columnist for Web Techniques, and President of Ken North Computing, LLC. XML One Europe (Oct. 6-8) Westminster Central Hall Storey's Gate Westminster, London For registration info: www.xmlconference.com/xmleuro/index.shtml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Thu Aug 19 09:30:42 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Images in XML In-Reply-To: <37BA6284.4B7C82EC@tis.co.in> Message-ID: <003101beea14$8ef59fe0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > This is my first posting. I have a image to be attached to the XML > document. > 1. How do I do it? Do you want to know how to show an image in XML document? I'll show two ways: a) The "SGML-way" ]> b) The "namespace-way", use HTML IMG tag Both of the above ways work in DocZilla (http://www.doczilla.com), only option b) works in the Mozilla browser (http://www.mozilla.org). As to other browsers, I do not know... > When I move the mouse over the image the size should vary. How is this > possible without refreshing the window? Uh, you can't change what the screen looks like if you can't refresh the window. But depending on browser, you should be able to modify the document with a scripting language (for example JavaScript) via the Document Object Model (DOM). Just change the element displaying the image so that it refers to another image with different size. Hopefully the browser is programmed so that it does not need to reread the whole document nor reflow/repaint the whole document/window. It would still be necessary to repaint the part where your image was shown and if the change in size affected other parts repaint those as well. But I am kinda suspecting this was not what you were looking for. I'd suggest you browse the web and when you see something that looks like what you want, check how it was done and copy that if possible. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shobhit_rastogi at inf.com Thu Aug 19 13:18:04 1999 From: shobhit_rastogi at inf.com (shobhit_rastogi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Designing Application logic interfaces. Message-ID: <755FA95DB839D211856B0008C7287D93042E102C@KECMSG02> Hi, In my application I need to define interfaces used to access the services provided by application components as per XML. How can I achieve this?? Thanks & Regards, Shobhit xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Thu Aug 19 16:04:41 1999 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XML to dvi In-Reply-To: <01BEDE87.CFD38650@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: Greetings: DuCharme/Megginson/Staflin's Emacs-related contributions for SGML/XML are excellent, and I've been able to work out a great deal of what is needed for our Math/Engineering students who do their writing in Unix. However, as they are most all a LaTeX gang, I'm wondering about utilities for converting their .xml output from Emacs with psgml/xml modes to dvi (for those discipline-specific journals &c. in which they want to publish relevant sections of their research). I've looked through Goossens' and Rahtz' book _The LaTeX Web Companion: Integrating TeX, HTML, and XML_ (Reading, MA: Addison-Wesley, 1999), and have not seen any reference. I recall one time seeing such a gizmo-- maybe perl or java-- on one of the XML sites but haven't seen it since. I know this is more of a mundane "user-end" question than a pure "development" programmer's/spec-reviewer question. Pardons in advance for such a pedestrian question. Many kind thanks in advance, jr ___________________ John Robert Gardner, Ph.D. http://vedavid.org/diss/ ________________________________________________________________________ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From xmlwriter at hotmail.com Thu Aug 19 16:54:50 1999 From: xmlwriter at hotmail.com (Wattle Software) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: NEW XML Editor for Windows Message-ID: <19990819145646.80569.qmail@hotmail.com> Wattle Software is pleased to announce the release of XMLwriter 1.0 BETA, a new XML editor for the Windows platform. A short list of features include: - Validation of XML documents against a DTD or Schema - XSL stylesheet conversion - Supports all document types: XML, XSL, DTD, HTML, CSS, and text files - Colour syntax highlighting of HTML, CSS, XSL, XSLT, and formatting object keywords - Comprehensive online help, context-sensitive help, and an XML reference guide - 100% IE5 compatibility - Expandable element tree display of Schema structure - Command line tool (can replace old msxsl.exe) - Easy to use text editor interface - Project management - Batch validation and XSL (stylesheet) conversion - Internal browser preview - Configurable external browser preview - Dockable toolbars and workspace windows - Tree view display of well-formed documents - Multi-document user interface - Drag and drop editing - Customisable toolbars, menus, and keyboard shortcuts We are currently changing ISPs, so our website is temporarily located at: http://216.147.84.84/ and you can download XMLwriter 1.0 BETA from: http://216.147.84.84/download.html We also have a temporary email address at xmlwriter@hotmail.com Our web server should be back online at our domain soon: http://www.XMLwriter.net/ and email back online at support@XMLwriter.net We look forward to hearing from you! Kind Regards, Chris Howard (Director) Wattle Software ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Thu Aug 19 19:55:32 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check References: <852567D1.00702FB5.00@D51MTA10.pok.ibm.com> <00b701bee9d3$1d039d60$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii> <19990819224924.A18865@one.net.au> Message-ID: <00a201beea6c$b11a2200$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii> What if you have more than one document? I think that DTD is reasonable only in situation when you have more than one document. DTD is kind of grammar. I think that having grammar for only one document is kind of hypotetic situation... I can imagine some system which is generating xml documents and grammar for each document, but I can't understand what should be the purpose of such a system... Rgds.Paul. > On Wed, Aug 18, 1999 at 04:40:54PM -0700, Paul Tchistopolskii wrote: > > > > The easy workaround that I see is to add the new tag to the > > DTD with > > > > Rgds.Paul. > > > > PS. However, I still think that if would push > > parser not to check for existance of the *clilds* definitions in the DTD, > > but would realy mean 'anything that is well-formed is OK' it would > > make our lifes easier without introducing any ( even hypotetical) > > trouble. ANY is a hack anyway. > > Why not specify the new element in the XML documents internal DTD subset ? > > Cheers, > > Matt. > > PS - Hi everyone, I'm new here - if I'm wrong please tell me :) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From khaitan at trapezo.com Fri Aug 20 00:40:45 1999 From: khaitan at trapezo.com (khaitan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check References: <862567D1.006E4DE7.00@notesmta.natinst.com> Message-ID: <008701beea94$8636f2c0$0d64a8c0@trapezo.com> A valid document essentially conforms to a DTD, while a well formed does not, it just has the valid XML syntax. So if you add new tags in the xml doc and parse it through a validating parser, it should conform to the dtd which the xml doc refers to. ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, August 18, 1999 1:01 PM Subject: adding new tags without error on DTD check > Does anybody out there know if: > > 1. you have a well-formed xml file that you are parsing and validating. > 2. a dtd file that validates the current xml file it is checked against. > > If you add a new tag that is not part of the DTD description, will an error > result be given showing the the xml file is unable to be validated? > > Thanks. > > Adam Eyler > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmdyck at netcom.ca Fri Aug 20 07:40:14 1999 From: jmdyck at netcom.ca (Michael Dyck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: English dictionary in XML? References: <199908182242.PAA18421@Bakshi> Message-ID: <37BCE97A.15756659@netcom.ca> MICRA, Inc. (http://humanities.uchicago.edu/homes/MICRA/) is working on a freely-available online knowledge base, which currently includes a marked-up version of Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (G&C Merriam Co., 1913, edited by Noah Porter), with over 100,000 headwords. It's still a work in progress: many of the pronunciations and Greek etymologies are missing, and it needs a lot of proof-reading, but it's a huge start. (It's the basis for a searchable dictionary at http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html, hosted by the University of Chicago's ARTFL Project.) The marked-up text of the dictionary can be downloaded from ftp://ftp.uga.edu/pub/misc/webster. There are 24 files (generally one file per letter). Zipped, they total 11.4 Mb. Unzipped, I'd guess 35-40 Mb. Now they're not in XML format, but they're close. I'd be willing to do the conversion, but I don't have the space to host the result. Does anyone want to volunteer some web space? -Michael Dyck jmdyck@netcom.ca xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Fri Aug 20 09:18:12 1999 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Subject: Linking with security Message-ID: <199908200720.DAA07960@chmls05.mediaone.net> Presuming that XML is *not* the native storage format for the data, simply filter it out server side when generating the XML in the first place. If you must use an external entity, couldn't it be empty or contain an innocuous element (e.g. ) that is thrown away during HTML rendering? Also, top level attributes of the EmployeeDatabase element like hasHistory="1" hasLeave="1" hasDiscipline="0" may simplify stylesheet and/or javascript logic used to generate (or not) the appropriate headers, borders, etc. for each section of the HTML "report". For this truly sensitive data, I presume also that you are not using basic authentication? As you probably know, both Netscape and IIS web servers have pretty decent support for client certificate based authentication based on SSL. Hope this helps, Charles Reitzel On Tue, 10 Aug 1999, Wendy Cameron wrote: >Subject: Linking with security > >Essetially what i have is as follows > > > > various history stuff > > > varoious leave stuff > > > varoiuos discipline stuff > > > > >I have group of users that have access to all the >information about employees. Within this group of >employees I have a sub set that have permission to >see disciline details. > >when the user hits the web site the user is Authenticated >and it is known what type of user it is. >Based on this knowledge I want to >If user has access to discipline > Show Discipline >else > Dont show discipline >End > >Weve thought of using Entity References to date if the >discipline file to which the entity refers does not exist >then we get no XML what so ever when we actuall want >every thing else but the discipline or except the entity >that is referenced. (Ohh im using IE5) This is not suitable > >Im thinking maybe I could write an IE5 behaviour that retrieves >the discipline xml parses it and adds it to the employee xml if >it is available to this user and then retransforms. > >Problem with this is i dont know how to acheive it quite. Im aware >I can assign behaviors to xml but are they activated (or how can >they be activated) when parsed into a ActiveX xml dom? > >Does anyone have any suggestions? > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk Fri Aug 20 12:18:51 1999 From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XML-QL vs XQL References: <19990818163547.12764.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <37BD3A0D.832A046F@bbc.co.uk> Prakash Mandgi wrote: > > Hi, > I am looking for a position document regarding XML-QL vs XQL. I am > looking > for the following information regarding these standards > > -- Support querying XML - DOM documents > -- Features Implemented > -- Industry support > -- Open Java - DOM implementations ;-) > -- Leading standard. > > All the information / responses will be summarized and posted back to > the XML > dev newsgroup. I don't think there's much to say, except that the two are quite different and do different things. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk Fri Aug 20 12:15:17 1999 From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Transmitting CGI vars to an XML doc. References: Message-ID: <37BD394A.CE884A71@bbc.co.uk> Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > > Still on the edge here... > What is the way that people here are using to send CGI parameters > to an XML driven CGI? Thanks for the endless clarifications :) I _think_ I've already solved this problem in CGI::XMLForm, a Perl module on CPAN (although we could be talking at complete cross purposes). What I do is encode my CGI variable names in an XPath-like format. The CGI on the server can then generate XML from the form variables, and you can then do your XSL or whatever on that XML. Does that sound like what you want to do? Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Fri Aug 20 12:24:37 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XSL with XT Message-ID: Hi, I have a question about XSL. I want to apply different alignments to the TD element depending on the value of the TH. The document looks like
Name Age Gender
Tom 22 Male
For example I want add ALIGN="RIGHT" attribute to the TD-Elements in the Age-column. So I definied XSL-rule like this. It doesn't work. So I tried to produce some output justbefore yxsl:choose> with the line And the output is 1Name 2Name 3Name It seems that the position() function in the [] is not evaluated everytime. It always get the value 1. Any idea? Thanks. Dapeng Wang xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Fri Aug 20 12:59:46 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents #2 References: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEBD@THOR> Message-ID: <006501beeafb$46457300$8d066d8c@sinica.edu.tw> Also on the topic, check out Francis Nortons work on generating XSL validators from DCD instances using an XSL stylesheet. http://www.redrice.com/ci/generatingXslValidators.html Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Fri Aug 20 12:57:57 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Declarative constraints for XML documents References: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAEBD@THOR> Message-ID: <006101beeafb$06090d60$8d066d8c@sinica.edu.tw> From: Arnold, Curt > Mike Spreitzer wrote: > >>Declarative constraints are what schemas are for! > The thread has followed a little convoluted path since I posted my original > query. The original query was primarily targeted to currently available > technologies to solve the specific problem, however I agree with you that > the fundamental intention does fall under the requirements in the Schema > working group and that the Schema would be an ideal place to express these > constraints. Your original question asked whether XSL could be used to express constraints. I have an article on this subject "Using XSL as a Validation Language" at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/XSLvalidation.html. The specifics in the article are out-of-date with the current XSL draft, because the article is about 7 months old now. For general discussion articles on the kinds of constraints you are are talking about, there are several articles at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/schemas.html Since you bring up "Facets", you may be interested in the notes: * Axis Models & Path Models: Extending DTDs with XPaths * Validate This! Content Models on Different Targets * Richer Anonymous Content Types So far, the W3C Schema draft does not look at any kind of extended validation: tree structures are nice, but surely we want to validate webs of information. Rick Jelliffe Academia Sinica Computing Centre Taipei, Taiwan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carp at us.itmasters.com Fri Aug 20 16:43:07 1999 From: carp at us.itmasters.com (Scott Carpenter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: English dictionary in XML? References: <199908182242.PAA18421@Bakshi> <37BCE97A.15756659@netcom.ca> Message-ID: <005c01beeb1a$85e35da0$0708000a@us.itmasters.com> I would be willing to donate web space after the conversion is done. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Dyck To: Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 12:36 AM Subject: English dictionary in XML? > MICRA, Inc. (http://humanities.uchicago.edu/homes/MICRA/) is working on a > freely-available online knowledge base, which currently includes a marked-up > version of Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (G&C Merriam Co., 1913, > edited by Noah Porter), with over 100,000 headwords. It's still a work in > progress: many of the pronunciations and Greek etymologies are missing, and > it needs a lot of proof-reading, but it's a huge start. (It's the basis for > a searchable dictionary at > http://humanities.uchicago.edu/forms_unrest/webster.form.html, hosted by the > University of Chicago's ARTFL Project.) > > The marked-up text of the dictionary can be downloaded from > ftp://ftp.uga.edu/pub/misc/webster. There are 24 files (generally one file > per letter). Zipped, they total 11.4 Mb. Unzipped, I'd guess 35-40 Mb. > > Now they're not in XML format, but they're close. I'd be willing to do the > conversion, but I don't have the space to host the result. Does anyone want > to volunteer some web space? > > -Michael Dyck > jmdyck@netcom.ca > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri Aug 20 19:36:02 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements Message-ID: <37BD7AC1.687A392C@prescod.net> This proposal goes one step beyond the one in "&-compromise". It goes a step farther towards making XML behave as a property/value language like most "OO" languages. One of the hardest questions to answer about XML DTD design is: "element or attribute." Attributes have certain virtues relating to lexical typing and convenience and elements have the primary virtue of being able to contain sub-structure. XML schemas are set to reduce some of the benefits of attributes but not all. Attributes will continue to be more convenient because they can come in any order and because they are easier to type. The problem is: if you choose to represent something as an attribute, for user convenience and "intuitiveness," you can never change your mind and allow it to have substructure later. I propose a new concept called a "structured attribute" (attr+). An attr+ is a property of an element. In most respects it is just like an attribute. In fact, not much in the schema spec would change at all. Am attr+ is different in that it can be syntactically fulfilled in a document by EITHER an XML 1.0 attribute OR a sub-element element of the same name. All such elements must precede the "real content" of an element. All characteristics must have names that are different from any element type name allowable in the element. A processor knows it has shifted from processing characteristics to processing "content elements" merely by looking at the generic identifiers ("tag names", for DOM-heads). Let me be clear that there is no new syntax in the document instance. A characteristic "foo" of type "IDREF" on element "bar" can be expressed as: ... or abc... Attr+es can have full content models. If a particular instance of a characteristic on a particular element happens to be all text (no sub-elements) then it can be expressed as an attribute instead of as an element. Over time, the word "attribute" would come to be synonymous with the term "characteristic in the minimized syntax." The working group can decide whether to keep the concept of "classic attribute" alive in the schema -- perhaps for backwards compatibility. A classic attribute would be an Attr+ that is constrained to only the minimized syntax. You could have an attribute called "StringOnly" or something. This would be useful for backwards compatibility. Attr+es would give these attributes "a future" in that they could become structured later. The information set contribution of an attr+ would be an information set item just like an Attribute information item except that its value would be an arbitrarily sub-strucured node list instead of just references and characters as it is now. An extra property would specify whether the attribute+ was expressed syntactially as an element or as "classic attribute." Practically speaking, this means that the XPath @foo could return a node with elements as its children. Thanks to the XPath concept of "value", this is 100% backwards compatible. Given abcdefghi, @foo would return "abcdefghi" in any context expecting a string and the structured content anywhere else. It is debatable whether attr+es would show up in the information set as element content (or in the child:: axis of XPath). Having them NOT show up is probably more convenient because why would they be in two axes? On the other hand, this means that schema-using processors would see a very different information set than XML 1.0 processors. That may or may not be a "big deal." It depends on how much the information set is otherwise modified by XMLSchema (archetypes, datatypes etc.). There are various ways of making the information set backwards compatible and yet making it easy to filter "true content" from "attribute content." Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri Aug 20 19:33:49 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: & compromise Message-ID: <37BD7AB6.DB0A9602@prescod.net> I had this idea on the plane back from Metastructures: I understand why people want the ampersand operator. I understand why people do not want it. I think that there is a middle ground. The ampersand operator is most often used to approximate "properties" of objects when you are using XML to transmit objects. XML's underlying data model is linguistic, not property/value ("object oriented") so this causes problems. At first it does not seem that it would be difficult to implement the ampersand operator. Instead of using a state machine you would use a bitmap. Bitmaps are no larger than the runtime portion of state machines (a single integer either way). So what's the problem? The problem is when you mix the modes. (a&(b,c)&(d|(e&f))). Now you can't just use a bitmap OR a state machine. You must do both. And in fact you must switch back and forth between them. And you can't optimize your state machine using "the usual algorithms." etc. It is demonstrably the case that the problem only comes from mixing: attributes are "object-oriented" but they don't cause a problem because they can't be mixed. The solution -- the compromise -- is just to make this mixing back and forth illegal. An element can either have ampersands (in which case it is, rough speaking, "object oriented") or it can have a content model (in which case it is, roughly speaking, a container). As you validate the document you check whether it falls into the first category or the second and set up a bitmap or a state machine. This model can even be integrated (with a little difficulty) with the hedge automata model. Before applying a hedge automata to a document, you would use the schema to reorder &-defined elements into a consistent order. This model can, with very little difficulty, be made more powerful by allowing a specific combination of ampersand groups and content models. As long as the ampersand group is required to precede the content model then all we need to do is associate with each element-level a bitmap AND a state machine (two integers instead of one). it is easy to know when we have shifted from the bitmap-flipping part of the content to the state-machine part: when the bitmap is filled you switch to the state machine -- or trigger an error if you get to an "unknown" node without filling the bitmap. There are a variety of syntactic mechanisms that could be used to enforce this separation in the schema. I'll leave that up to the working group. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Sat Aug 21 00:47:26 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E54016CBE6@master.design-intelligence.com> I would say the key advantage of attributes over elements is that attributes can have defaults. I can define a set of elements to be optional and allowed in any order by using (Attr1 | Attr2 ...)*. With schemas, I can type the content of an element. Default values seem the only missing capability. Marc B. McDonald Principal Software Scientist <<...>> Design Intelligence, Inc. 1111 Third Avenue, Suite 1500 Seattle, WA 98101 marc.mcdonald@design-intelligence.com Ph: 206.343-7797 Fax: 206.343.7750 http://www.design-intelligence.com > ---------- > From: Paul Prescod[SMTP:paul@prescod.net] > Sent: Friday, August 20, 1999 8:56 AM > To: w3c-xml-schema-ig@w3.org; www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org; xml-dev > Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements > > This proposal goes one step beyond the one in "&-compromise". It goes a > step farther towards making XML behave as a property/value language like > most "OO" languages. > > One of the hardest questions to answer about XML DTD design is: > "element or attribute." Attributes have certain virtues relating to > lexical typing and convenience and elements have the primary virtue of > being able to contain sub-structure. > > XML schemas are set to reduce some of the benefits of attributes but not > all. Attributes will continue to be more convenient because they can > come in any order and because they are easier to type. > > The problem is: if you choose to represent something as an attribute, > for user convenience and "intuitiveness," you can never change your mind > and allow it to have substructure later. > > I propose a new concept called a "structured attribute" (attr+). An > attr+ is a property of an element. In most respects it is just like an > attribute. In fact, not much in the schema spec would change at all. > > Am attr+ is different in that it can be syntactically fulfilled in a > document by EITHER an XML 1.0 attribute OR a sub-element element of the > same name. All such elements must precede the "real content" of an > element. All characteristics must have names that are different from any > element type name allowable in the element. A processor knows it has > shifted from processing characteristics to processing "content elements" > merely by looking at the generic identifiers ("tag names", for > DOM-heads). > > Let me be clear that there is no new syntax in the document instance. A > characteristic "foo" of type "IDREF" on element "bar" can be expressed > as: > > ... > > or > > abc... > > Attr+es can have full content models. If a particular instance of a > characteristic on a particular element happens to be all text (no > sub-elements) then it can be expressed as an attribute instead of as an > element. Over time, the word "attribute" would come to be synonymous > with the term "characteristic in the minimized syntax." > > The working group can decide whether to keep the concept of "classic > attribute" alive in the schema -- perhaps for backwards compatibility. A > classic attribute would be an Attr+ that is constrained to only the > minimized syntax. You could have an attribute called "StringOnly" or > something. This would be useful for backwards compatibility. Attr+es > would give these attributes "a future" in that they could become > structured later. > > The information set contribution of an attr+ would be an information set > item just like an Attribute information item except that its value would > be an arbitrarily sub-strucured node list instead of just references and > characters as it is now. An extra property would specify whether the > attribute+ was expressed syntactially as an element or as "classic > attribute." > > Practically speaking, this means that the XPath @foo could return a node > with elements as its children. Thanks to the XPath concept of "value", > this is 100% backwards compatible. Given > abcdefghi, @foo would return "abcdefghi" in any > context expecting a string and the structured content anywhere else. > > It is debatable whether attr+es would show up in the information set as > element content (or in the child:: axis of XPath). Having them NOT show > up is probably more convenient because why would they be in two axes? On > the other hand, this means that schema-using processors would see a very > different information set than XML 1.0 processors. That may or may not > be a "big deal." It depends on how much the information set is otherwise > modified by XMLSchema (archetypes, datatypes etc.). > > There are various ways of making the information set backwards > compatible and yet making it easy to filter "true content" from > "attribute content." > > Paul Prescod > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Aug 21 01:20:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: don't mix forums, please [was: & compromise] References: <37BD7AB6.DB0A9602@prescod.net> <37BDC91D.77E82942@w3.org> Message-ID: <37BDCE9D.6B08D6BF@prescod.net> Dan Connolly wrote: > > Please don't cross-post to w3c-xml-schema-ig and public > forums like xml-dev. Ok. Sorry. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Aug 21 04:19:26 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E54016CBE6@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <37BDFC69.9B93EE8F@prescod.net> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > I would say the key advantage of attributes over elements is that attributes > can have defaults. I'm trying to seperate the issues. There are syntactic attributes and schematic attributes. The one-to-one relationship between the two is only an accident of history that I am trying to reverse. Schematic attribute are named properties associated with element types. These have the advantage that they are semantically recognizable to processors as *properties* and not as *content*. This makes them easier to address, efficient to store and guarantees their arity. Syntactic attributes are properties of particular elements which for no good reason are restricted to being simple strings. Why wouldn't you want a property value to be richly structured? My proposal allows property (attribute) values to be expressed as simple strings when that is convenient and as structured sub-elements otherwise. > I can define a set of elements to be optional and allowed > in any order by using (Attr1 | Attr2 ...)*. That's hardly the same! It allows Attr1 Attr1 Attr1. > With schemas, I can type the > content of an element. Default values seem the only missing capability. Imagine if your favorite programming language didn't allow objects to have named properties but instead said that every object was a list. Finding a property value always required looking things up in lists. Even Lisp is not that semantically over-simple (but Scheme is pretty close). Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 22 03:27:38 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XML to dvi In-Reply-To: References: <01BEDE87.CFD38650@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <14271.20896.78375.337617@localhost.localdomain> JR Gardner writes: > DuCharme/Megginson/Staflin's Emacs-related contributions for SGML/XML are > excellent, and I've been able to work out a great deal of what is needed > for our Math/Engineering students who do their writing in Unix. However, > as they are most all a LaTeX gang, I'm wondering about utilities for > converting their .xml output from Emacs with psgml/xml modes to dvi (for > those discipline-specific journals &c. in which they want to publish > relevant sections of their research). Take a look at http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/publicSW.html#jadetex There is now even support for MathML (or at least, it was demonstrated in Montreal this week; I don't know if it's released yet). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Sun Aug 22 10:39:05 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike Message-ID: <000901beec7a$26d28a50$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> Sun and the OMG are preparing to standardize two more arcs (XML schema -> Java and XML schema -> OMG IDL, respectively) in an already large and inconsistent graph of data modelling languages. Below I have a very partial listing of data languages and mappings between them. I recommend (and have sent essentially this same message to the responsible bodies) that new standardization efforts should take this larger picture into account, and strive for maximal consistency with the explicit mappings and implied (via composition) mappings already extant. As the mappings already extant are not consistent, this immediately tells us that new mapping standards should leave some choices to an external "mapping choices" document. A possible motivation for the XML schema -> OMG IDL mapping is the desire to be able to easily import into the CORBA world standards already developed in the XML world. But it is also interesting to be able to easily import into the XML world standards already developed in the CORBA world. This says that the XML schema -> OMG IDL mapping needs to be *onto*, not just *into*, OMG IDL --- that is, it should be possible to map some XML schema into any given IDL. Similar considerations apply to the XML schema -> Java effort. While the "marshalling framework" of the proposed XML Data Binding specification "is not in any way intended to displace the object serialization mechanism that is already a central part of the Java platform", perhaps it should be a generalization. Another reason to generalize Java serialization is that there is no inherent reason that a given Java object should have only one serialization, which (as far as I know) is a limitation of the current facility; I already have heard colleagues complain that they want different serializations for different purposes. Languages that can model Data: UML, OMG IDL, Microsoft IDL, Java, C++, XML Schema: DTD, SOX , XML-Data , XML-Data-Reduced , DCD , DDML , RDF & RDF schema, SQL mappings between languages: Java<->bytes: Java serialization RMI-IIOP Java<->XML: XML Data Binding a hypothetical "Java archive" facility, mentioned in the XML Data Binding JSR above CommerceOne's SOX->Java mapping IBM XML BeanMaker Coins KOML OMG IDL<->Java: OMG Java->IDL OMG IDL->Java XML<->OMG IDL: Forthcoming OMG Request For Proposals (from the ORBOS task force) Microsoft IDL<->Java: Microsoft XML<->Microsoft IDL: Microsoft SOAP / Userland XML-RPC OMG IDL<->Microsoft IDL: Chapter 18 in CORBA 2.3 UML<->IDL: Rational Rose UML<->Java: Rational Rose XML<->Database: IBM's XPK4J IBM's DataCraft RDF<->XML: W3C's XML-based syntax for RDF, in RDF spec RDF schema <-> XML schema: subject of debate in W3C More than two sided: WDDX XMOP Mike Spreitzer http://parcweb.parc/spreitze/ (Xerox internal) http://www.parc.xerox.com/spreitze/ (external) +1-650-812-4833 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nicmila at vscht.cz Sun Aug 22 11:13:26 1999 From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: Zvon: XSL-tutorial(rewritten), new Perl RE tutorial, XML and translations References: <37B4B4C7.F881896C@jclark.com> Message-ID: <37BFBFAC.D02E619C@vscht.cz> Results of 6 days of holidays :-) XSL tutorial [http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/XSLTutorial/Books/Book1/index.html] 74 examples and >200 stylesheets, includes latest draft rewritten user interface, added new functions and indexes click on *** shows the XML source from which the example was generated Perl regular expresions tutorial [http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/PerlTutorial/Books/Book1/index.html]: needs polishing but a scaffold is here >From single xml file to a book, where original (EN), translation(CZ) or both (EN/CZ) can be displayed. It demonstrates power of XML and Perl. It took only 10 hours to program the viewer : open http://zvon.vscht.cz/ZvonHTML/Translations/cathedral-bazaar/front_en.html for original and then try to click on EN/CZ or CZ. It does not use javascript, so it should be usable for old browsers as well. And just to remind you: entire Zvon site can be downloaded: http://zvon.vscht.cz/ZvonHTML/Downloads/listOfPrograms_en.html -- *************************************************************** Dr. Miloslav Nic e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz Department of Organic Chemistry TEL: +420 2 2435 5012 ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha) +420 2 2435 4118 FAX: +420 2 2435 4288 **************************************************************** xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ian at imolesworth.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 22 16:51:53 1999 From: ian at imolesworth.demon.co.uk (Ian Molesworth) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:21 2004 Subject: XML data support Message-ID: <002401beecad$f2736a20$86e1dec2@demon.co.uk> Hi All I have a suite of Java classes for working with well formed XML in memory. The idea is to enable applets running in browsers access to XML based data. I am currently passing data to applets in XMLObject form, I am also using these classes for the middleware layer in fairly large business critical applications. Why re-invent the wheel? Well the .Jar file is 25k zipped. 30k unzipped. The raw class files run to about 65k, I have not tried to compress or optimise this yet. Any exceptions still print debug style messages to assist in fixing any problems. Compared to the 'full monty' applications from IBM and Microsoft' I reckon thats good enough reason. The classes provide the following functionality - create a new empty XmlObject create an XmlObject from a string. ( or text file ) get the value of an attribute set the value of an attribute insert an attribute or node remove an attribute or node insert a copy of an XmlObject into another XmlObject copy the XmlObject or a subsection of the XmlObject build a cursor on a list of attributes at a certain level in the XmlObject nodes and leaves can be located using qualified names. (IE: get ("customer.address.postcode") ) Anyway that's the basics, there are a few more besides. Are there any souls out there interested in testing this lot before I let it loose on the general community? drop me a mail at ian@imolesworth.demon.co.uk and I'll mail you the files and some documentation. Ian Molesworth Tango4 Consulting ltd +44 (0) 411 378 562 +44 (0) 1892 852846 Sample follows - public static void main(java.lang.String[] args) { try { // To build an object from the test file uncomment the following line and // comment out the 4 after that // XmlObject theObject = XmlObject.createFromFile ("C:\\data\\testdata.xob"); String theString = " 12345 Ian Molesworth"; theString += " Term life "; theString += " dual life mortgage life "; theString += " annuity "; // Uncomment the next two lines to see the sample string streamed out // System.out.println("A string that will become an XmlObject - "); // System.out.println(theString); XmlObject theObject = XmlObject.buildFromString (theString); // Uncomment the next two lines to see the formatted XML Object after being built from the string // System.out.println("\nThe serialized & formatted XmlObject - "); // System.out.println (theObject.asXml()); theObject.insert ("Request","VerifyUser"); XmlObject Address = XmlObject.build ("Address"); Address.insert ("PostCode"); Address.insert ("NameBer","31"); Address.insert ("line4","East Sussex"); theObject.insert (Address); theObject.set ("Address.PostCode","TN6 3LW"); // Uncomment the next two lines to see the formatted XML Object after being having the additional bits added. // System.out.println("\nThe NEW serialized & formatted XmlObject - "); // System.out.println (theObject.asXml()); if ( theObject.contains("UserId")) { System.out.println ( "UserId = " + theObject.get("UserId").asXml()); System.out.println ( "User name = " + theObject.get("UserName").asXml()); if ( theObject.contains("ProductList")) { System.out.println ("List of products - "); int n = 1; // This bit pulls out a copy of the subsection ( class ) held under productlist XmlObject ListOfProducts = theObject.get("ProductList"); // build a cursor on the enclosed attributes XCursor cursor = new XCursor (ListOfProducts); while (cursor.hasMoreElements()) { XmlObject listObject = (XmlObject)cursor.nextElement(); System.out.println (n++ + " " + listObject.get("name").asXml()); } } else if ( theObject.contains("Product")) { System.out.println (theObject.get("Product.name").asXml()); } } } catch ( Throwable exception ) { System.out.println ("Exception........." + exception.getMessage()); } } -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990822/3adcc6c4/attachment.htm From dcarlson at ontogenics.com Sun Aug 22 22:52:03 1999 From: dcarlson at ontogenics.com (Dave Carlson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike References: <000901beec7a$26d28a50$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <000201beece1$110b42e0$1588a0d8@jewel> Mike, Thanks for your summary. I would add to your list: OMG's adopted XMI spec that defines: MOF metamodel -> DTD & MOF model -> XML including: UML -> DTD & UML -> XML The XMI spec appears to be gaining support of the UML vendors, but I'm also curious if anyone else is using XMI for other DTD generation activities. I'm building a UML model for representing business rules, and am experimenting with generation of a correponding DTD using IBM's XMI toolkit available on alphaworks. So far, this approach seems to allow a much better analysis/design process than "hand-coding" a DTD, or other XML schema. Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Mike Spreitzer To: Cc: Mike Spreitzer Sent: Sunday, August 22, 1999 2:41 AM Subject: More chaos coming down the pike > Sun and the OMG are preparing to standardize two more arcs (XML schema > -> Java and XML schema -> OMG IDL, respectively) in an already large > and inconsistent graph of data modelling languages. Below I have a > very partial listing of data languages and mappings between them. > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon Aug 23 05:12:08 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements Message-ID: <003201beed16$1f842550$0cf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Paul Prescod >I propose a new concept called a "structured attribute" (attr+). An >attr+ is a property of an element. In most respects it is just like an >attribute. In fact, not much in the schema spec would change at all. > >An attr+ is different in that it can be syntactically fulfilled in a >document by EITHER an XML 1.0 attribute OR a sub-element element of the >same name. Great idea. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 23 06:18:22 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike References: <000901beec7a$26d28a50$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> <000201beece1$110b42e0$1588a0d8@jewel> Message-ID: <37C0BCCF.E3010ED2@prescod.net> Dave Carlson wrote: > > The XMI spec appears to be gaining support of the UML vendors, but I'm also > curious if anyone else is using XMI for other DTD generation activities. > I'm building a UML model for representing business rules, and am > experimenting with generation of a correponding DTD using IBM's XMI toolkit > available on alphaworks. So far, this approach seems to allow a much better > analysis/design process than "hand-coding" a DTD, or other XML schema. I'd be interested in more information on this last comment. Also I'd like your opinion on the maintainability of this route. It seems to me that once you generate the DTD and distribute it to your business partners, internal customers and so forth, it takes on a life of its own separate from the UML model. Changes must now be considered in terms of backwards compatibility at the XML, not UML level. Documentation is mostly at the XML level, etc. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Mon Aug 23 11:39:54 1999 From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike In-Reply-To: "Mike Spreitzer"'s message of "Sun, 22 Aug 1999 01:41:39 PDT" References: <000901beec7a$26d28a50$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: Mike Spreitzer writes: [A daunting summary of XML <-> data model options, plus a plea for restraint/standardisation] Amen! In my talk last week at XML DevCon in Montréal I made this point from a different perspective. I observed that just as historically SGML was viewed as an interchange format for documents, now we have documents being viewed as an interchange format for data. It follows that the place we need standardisation is at the interface between document infoset and application infoset. Since XML Schema is where document infoset structure is being defined and constrained (for any given document family), it makes sense to me to see the DocInfoSet<->AppInfoSet relation specifiable as part of, or addendum to, an XML schema. My tentative conclusion as to how to do this: XSLT templates (NOT template rules) utilising the element extension mechanism. ht -- Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh 2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440 Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From javiergr at iti.uned.es Mon Aug 23 13:10:23 1999 From: javiergr at iti.uned.es (Javier =?iso-8859-1?Q?Garc=EDa?= Rueda) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Needed DOM tutorial... Message-ID: <37C12CB1.A8E3B637@iti.uned.es> Anyone Knows about tutorials or documentation (introduction to DOM?) about DOM? Much Thanks. Javier xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk Mon Aug 23 13:16:26 1999 From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XSL in Mozilla Message-ID: <37C12E06.E306DD0C@bbc.co.uk> Just saw this on the mozilla status update page: "Currently working on plugging in an XSL processor into Gecko. The processor was recently contributed by Keith Visco (MITRE) to mozilla.org (I have been interacting with Keith for some time and he got the go ahead to MPL his source just a week or so back). Gecko has hooks that let an external XSLT processor apply an XSL transformation to an XML document before it is displayed. I'll try to demo the plugged in processer at XML DevCon '99 in Canada this Friday. If I can't get it plugged in by then, I'll at least talk about the XSL hooks in Gecko. I really want to get the XSL processor hooked up by beta, though." Great news. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com Mon Aug 23 14:41:57 1999 From: Dapeng.Wang at Dresdner-Bank.com (Wang, Dapeng) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: NOWRAP Message-ID: Hi, while translating XML to HTML using XSLT, I'm always confronted with the situation that the NOWRAP attribute to a TD element must be specified like . For it is not well formed XML, I alwasy have to put it into a CDATA-section, whcih is very annoying. Does anybody know another possiblity to avoid it. (Perhaps any other tag or attribute which has the same effect as NOWRAP but is well-formed) Thanx Dapeng Wang xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 23 14:52:52 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XSL in Mozilla In-Reply-To: <37C12E06.E306DD0C@bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <199908231255.IAA30453@hesketh.net> At 12:18 PM 8/23/99 +0100, Matt Sergeant wrote: >Just saw this on the mozilla status update page: >"Currently working on plugging in an XSL processor into Gecko. The >processor was recently contributed by Keith Visco (MITRE) to mozilla.org >(I have been interacting with Keith for some time and he got the go >ahead to MPL his >source just a week or so back). Gecko has hooks that let an external >XSLT processor apply an XSL transformation to an XML document before it >is displayed. I'll try to demo the plugged in processer at XML DevCon >'99 in Canada this Friday. If I can't get it plugged in by then, I'll at >least talk about the XSL hooks in Gecko. I really want to get the XSL >processor hooked up by beta, though." According to the Netscape presentation at XML Developer Days, this implementation is (for now) XSLT only, not supporting XSL FOs. Future versions may, of course, do so. (I don't remember that they got the demo plugged in, but they're definitely working on it.) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 23 15:01:26 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: NOWRAP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14273.17970.630331.539497@localhost.localdomain> Wang, Dapeng writes: > while translating XML to HTML using XSLT, I'm always confronted with the > situation that the NOWRAP attribute to a TD element must be specified like > . For it is not well formed XML, I alwasy have to put it into a > CDATA-section, whcih is very annoying. Does anybody know another possiblity > to avoid it. (Perhaps any other tag or attribute which has the same effect > as NOWRAP but is well-formed) In SGML, this is shorthand for ... For XML, use the unabbreviated version (it works with Netscape 4 under Linux, at least -- I have no other browsers available for testing right now). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Mon Aug 23 15:03:05 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: NOWRAP Message-ID: <199908231303.GAA00314@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> I use: ... which seems to get the job done. _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team BC4J: http://technet.oracle.com/product/tools/appjava/info/techwp20/wp.html XML: http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Wang, Dapeng" Subject: NOWRAP Date: 23 Aug 1999 05:44:13 Size: 2532 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990823/6c3a9bcf/attachment.eml From qtxpjoh at aom.ericsson.se Mon Aug 23 16:22:50 1999 From: qtxpjoh at aom.ericsson.se (Peter Johansson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XSL syntax Message-ID: <37C159C0.4E1428E2@aom.ericsson.se> I'm trying to transform a xmldocument to HTML and I'm just stuck with this problem. Hope U have patience with my question :-) I have this XML file: hej nisse hup 22 huj 23 hopp 24 <====== My problem is here when i need to go one level deeper in my <====== xml-stucture. hej:hej1 nisse hubba 25 bubba 26 What kind of xsl code do I need to be able to display the deeper level? Should I use a statement to be able to do items again i the deeper level and in that case, how will the syntax look like? My current XSL file is shown below if it might be of any help. Now it prints: id: hej domain:nisse name value hup 22 huj 23 hopp 24 it does not continue with: id hej:hej1 domain:nisse name value hubba 25 bubba 26 What can I put in my xsl file to make this happen?? *** cnaml filen ***

**XML-listan**

IDENTITY: DOMAIN:
Name Value
Hope this question is OK for this list, it si something I have been stuck with for a while and I hope someone might look in to it. By the way I use XT to transform from XML to HTML //Peter -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990823/9bbc1a2c/attachment.htm From timm at channelpoint.com Mon Aug 23 16:59:58 1999 From: timm at channelpoint.com (Tim McCune) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: NOWRAP Message-ID: If you look at the HTML 4.0 DTD, you will see that the correct syntax is . -----Original Message----- From: Wang, Dapeng [mailto:Dapeng.Wang@Dresdner-Bank.com] Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 6:44 AM To: Xml-Dev (E-Mail) Subject: NOWRAP Hi, while translating XML to HTML using XSLT, I'm always confronted with the situation that the NOWRAP attribute to a TD element must be specified like . For it is not well formed XML, I alwasy have to put it into a CDATA-section, whcih is very annoying. Does anybody know another possiblity to avoid it. (Perhaps any other tag or attribute which has the same effect as NOWRAP but is well-formed) Thanx Dapeng Wang xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Mon Aug 23 17:30:25 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Needed DOM tutorial... References: <37C12CB1.A8E3B637@iti.uned.es> Message-ID: <37C16E07.A6DB5007@finetuning.com> That would be the "What is the Document Object Model" introduction at: http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/introduction.html and of course there is always the W3C site for all that is DOM: http://www.w3.org/DOM/ enjoy! lisa Javier Garc?a Rueda wrote: > > Anyone Knows about tutorials or documentation (introduction to DOM?) > about DOM? > > Much Thanks. > > Javier > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ROB.S.HINES at nttc-pen.navy.mil Mon Aug 23 17:29:48 1999 From: ROB.S.HINES at nttc-pen.navy.mil (ROB S HINES) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML Repositories Message-ID: <0000B6FC.3068@nttc-pen.navy.mil> Heya, Being a newbie to the group I have what I consider a burning question, but has probably already been hashed out. If someone would point me in the right direction I would be quite appreciative. Basically I need to make some decisions regarding my position on Repositories for XML data, specifically Computer Based Training developed in XML. There will be thousands of courses residing in the repository, served up world wide. My initial position was to go with an Object Database, in particular something built around a solution like POETS Content Management System. However, there have been many individuals that dislike this idea, and balk at the idea of leaving the safety of the well know RDBMS community. I believe that it is "natural" to use an ODBMS as an XML repository, although it "can be done" in an RDBMS. However, I do not seem to carry enough weight to convince all involved. So either I'm wrong or I'm right, and I would greatly appreciate being vindicated or proved wrong. Please provide me with your opinions, and point me to any technical documents that shed light on the issue. Thanks in advance. Very Respectfully, Robert S Hines Senior Program Analyst CBT Development Center NTTC Corry Station w (850) 452-6061 w (850) 452-6062 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com Mon Aug 23 17:51:44 1999 From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Attr+: Integrating attributes and elements Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAED8@THOR> It does have an initial appeal and I do use that type of construct frequently, but I think it has some problems trying to build it into the schema language. If it is done at all, maybe it should really be an Element-. One of the key limitations of attributes is the inability to support structure. So I'm forced to make a transition to an element when I need to add structured content, but I can use the attribute form when I don't have any structured content. The attribute can represent an element that in this particular instance has no structured content. Say, if I have a schema to communicate weather readings that reads something like: If I decided that I needed to add annotation to the temperature, I'd need to support something like: Readings are delayed by 15 minutes My processing software could be smart enough to support either form. So if I didn't have a note to go with the reading I could use the attribute form. However I'm not sure if I want the schema to have to define the map from the element form to the attribute form or have the DOM produce a phantom element for me. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken_north at compuserve.com Mon Aug 23 18:49:22 1999 From: ken_north at compuserve.com (Ken North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML Repositories Message-ID: <004701beed87$7ef054c0$0500a8c0@platinum> Rob Hines wrote: > My initial position was to go with an Object Database, in particular >something built around a solution like POETS Content Management System. However, >there have been many individuals that dislike this idea, and balk at the idea of >leaving the safety of the well know RDBMS community. I believe that it is >"natural" to use an ODBMS as an XML repository, although it "can be done" in an >RDBMS. 1. SQL products such as Oracle, IBM DB2, and Informix are object-relational DBMSs. The engineering staffs at those companies have been developing extensions for XML. There will be several important releases in the next few months (Oracle iFS, IBM's XML Extender). You'll have the option of storing a XML document in the database or as an external file. When stored internally, you can decompose a document or store it as a single column in a table. 2. POET, Bluestone, Object Design (eXcelon), and Adabas (Tamino) are also in the XML server space. 3. "Modeling, Metadata, XML (Web Techniques, June 1999) http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/1999/06/data/ 4. Why not bring in the entire lot and do a detailed evaluation? Use one of the courses as a test case and load its documents on all of those products. Then you'll be able to determine how robust the product is, whether doing SQL queries is an advantage, whether you need bindings to multiple programming languages, which XML parser you prefer, who has the best tools for server administration, and so on. >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From yming_sun at ml.com Mon Aug 23 19:00:12 1999 From: yming_sun at ml.com (Sun, Ye-Ming (DAT)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: help Message-ID: Does one know exactly the difference between msxml.dll and msxmlr.dll. With both msxml.dll and msxmlr.dll on my machine, My xml works pretty well with the MS DOM architecture. However, when I move the application to a different machine (which only had the msxml.dll), I have to install the xmlr.dll to make it to work. Now I need to move my app to another machine which also has only the msxml.dll, certeinly the application failled. I need to convince the people to add the msxmlr.dll, but I could not tell exactly the necessarity. The related question is that if I only allowed to have the msxml.dll, could I still use MS DOM architecture, and how to impliment with script languages. Thanks lot for helps. Ye-Ming Sun xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 19:03:40 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML Repositories Message-ID: <19990823170639.4448.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> hello everyone!!! I am building an XML interpreter. What i am puzzled is whats the best method to interpret the schema?? Any help is welcomed... Thx Please reply asap --- Ken North wrote: > Rob Hines wrote: > > My initial position was to go with an > Object Database, in > particular > >something built around a solution like POETS > Content Management System. > However, > >there have been many individuals that dislike this > idea, and balk at > the idea of > >leaving the safety of the well know RDBMS > community. I believe that it > is > >"natural" to use an ODBMS as an XML repository, > although it "can be > done" in an > >RDBMS. > > 1. SQL products such as Oracle, IBM DB2, and > Informix are > object-relational DBMSs. The engineering staffs at > those companies have > been developing extensions for XML. There will be > several important > releases in the next few months (Oracle iFS, IBM's > XML Extender). You'll > have the option of storing a XML document in the > database or as an > external file. When stored internally, you can > decompose a document or > store it as a single column in a table. > > 2. POET, Bluestone, Object Design (eXcelon), and > Adabas (Tamino) are > also in the XML server space. > > 3. "Modeling, Metadata, XML (Web Techniques, June > 1999) > http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/1999/06/data/ > > 4. Why not bring in the entire lot and do a detailed > evaluation? Use one > of the courses as a test case and load its documents > on all of those > products. Then you'll be able to determine how > robust the product is, > whether doing SQL queries is an advantage, whether > you need bindings to > multiple programming languages, which XML parser you > prefer, who has the > best tools for server administration, and so on. > > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > >Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > >(un)subscribe xml-dev > >To subscribe to the digests, > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > >subscribe xml-dev-digest > >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 23 19:09:00 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML and Schema Message-ID: <19990823171159.5284.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Hello Everyone!! if I am not wrong the Schema basically describes the XML Doc! So when I have a particular schema thats written in XML itself! how do I interpret it and build the XML Document out of it?? For eg the schema is (for List Dcl(not the std list)) on reading the schema basically I should produce a custom XML Doc like john;cary;susan Can anyone help in giving me feedback about what classes I should build?? Thx __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Mon Aug 23 19:32:39 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike In-Reply-To: <37C0BCCF.E3010ED2@prescod.net> Message-ID: <001a01beed8d$d4297150$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> > Also I'd like your opinion on the maintainability of this route. It > seems to me that once you generate the DTD and distribute it to your > business partners, internal customers and so forth, it takes on a life > of its own separate from the UML model. Changes must now be considered > in terms of backwards compatibility at the XML, not UML level. > Documentation is mostly at the XML level, etc. Why wouldn't you distribute the real source (XMI?)? That seems better than distributing something derived in a standard way from the source. Mike xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 23 20:03:34 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: ANN: DATAX 1.0beta (DATA Exchange in XML) Library Message-ID: <14273.35522.974669.981939@localhost.localdomain> As announced Friday at the XML Developers' Conference in Montreal, there is now a beta version of the DATAX library in Java available at the following location: http://www.megginson.com/DATAX/ (The development of this library was funded by Muze, http://www.muze.com/) DATAX is a very simple set of interfaces for representing entities (resources/objects) and their attributes (properties) and relationships (references/links). The library includes a default, in-memory implementation, together with very efficient classes for writing to and reading from RDF documents. DATAX and RDF massively simplify the task of exchanging information about things and their properties and relationships in XML; importing an RDF document, for example, requires only one line of code: EntitySet entities = new RDFReader().read("mydata.xml"); You can then use the standard Java2 collections interface to iterate through the entities (objects) read: Iterator it = entities.iterator(); while (it.hasNext()) { Entity e = (Entity)it.next(); System.out.println("The entity's identifier is " + e.getId()); System.out.println("The entity's class is " + e.getClassId()); } It's equally simple to iterate through an entity's properties: Iterator it2 = e.iterator(); while (it2.hasNext()) { Property p = (Property)it2.next(); switch (p.getType()) { case Property.ATTRIBUTE: System.out.println("Literal: " + p.getName() + '=' + p.getValue()); break; case Property.RELATIONSHIP: System.out.println("Link: " + p.getName() + '=' + p.getValue()); break; } } There are several query methods available as well. The beta version includes source code but does not yet have an explicitly open source license -- in particular, you have to agree that any bug reports you submit can be merged back into the code base. There will be a proper open-source license for the 1.0 final release this fall. Enjoy! All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mlepley at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 23 23:42:18 1999 From: mlepley at worldnet.att.net (Mike Lepley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Bundling binary files and XML documents Message-ID: <014901beedb9$f1a04de0$94eb4e0c@Lepley> I was wondering what others have been doing when a machine needs to send a binary file (such as a picture) AND an XML document which references the binary file as an ENTITY. Is there a way to bundle the binary file and the XML document and send it together? Or does one have to parse the XML and then request the binary file? Or other? Thanks in advance, Mike Lepley xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp Tue Aug 24 14:55:48 1999 From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself Message-ID: <02bf01beee30$21f9ea20$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> I have been worndering whether the XML 1.0 specification represented in XML format is well-formed or not in the exact sense which the specification itself is supposed to define. For everyone's convenience, the file is located at the following URL. http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.xml On line 21, you can find the entity "lt" being redeclared as "<" as follows. I remember there were some debate on this list discussing if such redeclaration is allowed in terms of the XML 1.0 specification. I am not trying to revive that thread in this message. Even if we assume "lt" could be redeclared in the internal DTD subset for now (I guess we can even extrapolate this is the case since the spec itself redeclares it), I believe it'll end up being violating well-formedness constraint for entities. In 4.3.2 "Well-Formed Parsed Entities" of the XML 1.0 spec, it states that: "An internal general parsed entity is well-formed if its replacement text matches the production labeled content. All internal parameter entities are well-formed by definition. A consequence of well-formedness in entities is that the logical and physical structures in an XML document are properly nested; no start-tag, end-tag, empty-element tag, element, comment, processing instruction, character reference, or entity reference can begin in one entity and end in another." And content is defined as: "content ::= (element | CharData | Reference | CDSect | PI | Comment)* " I think that XML processor shall find the entity as "not well-formed" when it tries to expand references to "lt" (i.e. < ) if it have been redeclared as "<", because "<" does not match the production rule for content. Am I missing something? = Takuki Kamiya Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749 = = FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731) = xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Aug 24 15:24:05 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself In-Reply-To: Takuki Kamiya's message of Tue, 24 Aug 1999 21:56:50 +0900 Message-ID: <199908241326.OAA07480@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > You're right, it's wrong. Most non-validating parsers will ignore declarations of the built-in entities, so it may well not be detected. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue Aug 24 17:51:05 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Abuse of XML checker Message-ID: <199908241553.QAA17170@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> This is somewhat off-topic, but I know some other people on this list have similar services that may be being abused. I noticed in the logs for my XML checker numerous, regular, entries like this: tide74.microsoft.com - - [24/Aug/1999:10:17:46 +0100] "GET /%7Erichard/xml- check.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2Ftracker.clicktrade.com%2Ftracker%2Ftracker.dll%3F to%3D%27http%3A%2F%2Fwww.callback4u.com%2F%27%26ad%3D73100.0%26lp%3D221944 HTTP/1.0" 200 417 What seems to be happening is that someone is using the checker to fetch advertising pages which they presumably get paid for accesses to. I've mailed abuse@microsoft.com and abuse@clicktrade.com, but have had only pro forma replies from Microsoft and nothing from Clicktrade. I'll be adding some filtering to my cgi script; other people with web pages that fetch arbitrary URLs may want to do the same. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 24 21:00:11 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself References: <02bf01beee30$21f9ea20$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> Message-ID: <37C2EC17.AA1A8B88@pacbell.net> Takuki Kamiya wrote: > > Yes, that's broken. It's because of the WF-ness constraint that you quoted from 4.3.2, not any other reason. It's the case of a "broken document" ... and in the mode where a conformant processor is not required to report the error. Since that entity value will not be expanded, its WF-ness isn't tested. > Even if we assume "lt" could be redeclared in the internal DTD subset for now > (I guess we can even extrapolate this is the case since the spec itself > redeclares it) ... It's clear that it _is_ permitted to redeclare entities (including the predeclared ones) in the internal subset. See section 4.6 where it talks about various "may" (may redeclare) and "must" (must still be WF, and not change the standard effect) cases, none of which could work if such redeclaration were disallowed. > I think that XML processor shall find the entity as "not well-formed" when it > tries to expand references to "lt" (i.e. < ) if it have been redeclared > as "<", because "<" does not match the production rule for content. > > Am I missing something? Only that, as Richard implied, most XML processors treat those entities as "predefined" and so any additional declarations are often ignored. That's permitted; the spec says a warning "may" be issued, but they're not required. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 24 21:01:35 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Bundling binary files and XML documents References: <014901beedb9$f1a04de0$94eb4e0c@Lepley> Message-ID: <37C2EC76.3B30D64A@pacbell.net> Mike Lepley wrote: > > I was wondering what others have been doing when a machine needs to send a > binary file (such as a picture) AND an XML document which references the > binary file as an ENTITY. > > Is there a way to bundle the binary file and the XML document and send it > together? > Or does one have to parse the XML and then request the binary > file? Or other? You could use a MIME "multipart/related" document (see www.ietf.org, there's an RFC). The unparsed entity declaration for the binary file would use a URI referring to the related binary file. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mlepley at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 24 21:11:47 1999 From: mlepley at worldnet.att.net (Mike Lepley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Bundling binary files and XML documents References: <014901beedb9$f1a04de0$94eb4e0c@Lepley> <37C2EC76.3B30D64A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <002501beee6e$0d4e4880$0fec4e0c@Lepley> Thanks! I also found another interesting solution, which doesn't use an ENTITY. You could add an encoded binary file in the XML document, like so: my_picture.jpg l;jqwuALQLWEKufdlk1sadfjl1JF and decode the binary when the XML document is received. What do you think? > You could use a MIME "multipart/related" document (see www.ietf.org, > there's an RFC). The unparsed entity declaration for the binary file > would use a URI referring to the related binary file. > > - Dave > > Mike Lepley wrote: > > > > I was wondering what others have been doing when a machine needs to send a > > binary file (such as a picture) AND an XML document which references the > > binary file as an ENTITY. > > > > Is there a way to bundle the binary file and the XML document and send it > > together? > > Or does one have to parse the XML and then request the binary > > file? Or other? > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 24 21:50:26 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: Bundling binary files and XML documents References: <014901beedb9$f1a04de0$94eb4e0c@Lepley> <37C2EC76.3B30D64A@pacbell.net> <002501beee6e$0d4e4880$0fec4e0c@Lepley> Message-ID: <37C2F7D3.779670F8@pacbell.net> Mike Lepley wrote: > > Thanks! > > I also found another interesting solution, which doesn't use an ENTITY. You > could add an encoded binary file in the XML document, like so: > > > my_picture.jpg > l;jqwuALQLWEKufdlk1sadfjl1JF > > > and decode the binary when the XML document is received. > > What do you think? Embeddeing a Base64 encoded document works fine ... but that wasn't the problem you originally posed, namely keeping the two documents apart! - Dave > > You could use a MIME "multipart/related" document (see www.ietf.org, > > there's an RFC). The unparsed entity declaration for the binary file > > would use a URI referring to the related binary file. > > > > - Dave > > > > > Mike Lepley wrote: > > > > > > I was wondering what others have been doing when a machine needs to send > a > > > binary file (such as a picture) AND an XML document which references the > > > binary file as an ENTITY. > > > > > > Is there a way to bundle the binary file and the XML document and send > it > > > together? > > > Or does one have to parse the XML and then request the binary > > > file? Or other? > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pgrosso at arbortext.com Tue Aug 24 22:27:13 1999 From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:22 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990824152157.018ddb4c@pophost.arbortext.com> It is true that the line Takuki Kamiya found is in error. That much is clear. At 12:01 1999 08 24 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >It's clear that it _is_ permitted to redeclare entities (including the >predeclared ones) in the internal subset. See section 4.6 where it >talks about various "may" (may redeclare) and "must" (must still be WF, >and not change the standard effect) cases, none of which could work >if such redeclaration were disallowed. But if anything else is clear, it's that this issue that David claims is clear isn't clear. I was the one who argued this before, and I don't want to reopen the discussion, but I continue to read the following text (quoted from 4.6 aka http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent): If the [predefined] entities in question are declared, they must be declared as internal entities whose replacement text is the single character being escaped or a character reference to that character, as shown below. [which is then followed by a list of declarations for the 5 predefined entities] to say that it is not permissible to declare those 5 entity references any differently than as shown in that table. Perhaps it is possible to read the "as" in "as shown below" to mean "in a vaguely similar manner that does not change the standard effect", but that is a somewhat non-standard meaning in my experience. Nowhere in 4.6 does the word "redeclare" appear (as in "may redeclare"). In fact, after a couple uses of "may" in the first paragraph unrelated to the predefined entities themselves, the word "may" does not appear in section 4.6. It is at least reasonable to believe (as I do) that the "must be declared" in section 4.6 which I include in my quote above modifies, among other words, the "as shown below" phrase implying that it is an error to have a declaration for any of these 5 entities that differs from that shown in the table. paul xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 22:37:28 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.3 Message-ID: <37C302BC.D5F5C1E2@pobox.com> DLSI=adpO This is an alpha release because the API has not been finalized. The module will be available at your local CPAN archive. Alternatively, try one of the 2 URLs: http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/id/E/EI/EISEN/XML-RSS-0.2.tar.gz http://www.perlxml.com/modules/XML-RSS-0.2.tar.gz This Perl module provides a basic framework for creating and maintaining Rich Site Summary (RSS) files. RSS is primarily used for distributing news headlines, commonly called channels, and is used primarily on Netscape's Netcenter, http://my.netscape.com, and Userland Software's http://my.userland.com. This distribution includes several examples that allow you to generate HTML from an RSS file. This might be helpful if you want to include news feeds on your Web site from sources like Slashot and Freshmeat. This latest release adds support for RSS version 0.91. More information on RSS can be found at: http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/mnn20/quickstart.html Please send comments, problems, etc. to eisen@pobox.com. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Tue Aug 24 22:53:03 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: CORRECTION: XML::RSS 0.3 URL Message-ID: <37C30664.1536ECCE@pobox.com> The correct URLs for the module are: http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/id/E/EI/EISEN/XML-RSS-0.3.tar.gz http://www.perlxml.com/modules/XML-RSS-0.3.tar.gz xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 00:02:12 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Message-ID: <19990824220412.57463.qmail@hotmail.com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990824/30f75196/attachment.htm From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 00:17:58 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Message-ID: <19990824221947.27406.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a new requirement came in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or begun or actually implemented such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990824/ab6fc9b8/attachment.htm From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 00:18:06 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Message-ID: <19990824221944.23176.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a new requirement came in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or begun or actually implemented such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990824/94b0186a/attachment.htm From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 00:19:06 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Message-ID: <19990824222051.13085.qmail@hotmail.com> Hi all, I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a new requirement came in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or begun or actually implemented such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Prakash -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990824/b1d50a06/attachment.htm From ken_north at compuserve.com Wed Aug 25 00:43:00 1999 From: ken_north at compuserve.com (Ken North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Message-ID: <006501beee82$0e866340$0500a8c0@platinum> Do you really want versioning of the DOM objects, or of the XML document itself? -----Original Message----- From: Prakash Mandgi To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 3:23 PM Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model Hi all, I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a new requirement came in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or begun or actually implemented such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks Prakash xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Wed Aug 25 01:02:21 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: XML Repositories References: <19990823170639.4448.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <000001beee84$63389960$334ffea9@litebook> Your doing something similar to me. Advice - read up on DOM, xmlschema, Data will be XML string, Must define some type of schema for all the names you will be using with their attributes like type="date", Lenght=20, etc.. I am going to try to use an empty XML string that I can put data into, I think this is the easiest approach ----- Original Message ----- From: vishal sharan To: Ken North ; ROB S HINES ; Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 3:06 AM Subject: Re: XML Repositories > hello everyone!!! > I am building an XML interpreter. What i am puzzled is whats the best > method to interpret the schema?? > Any help is welcomed... > > Thx > Please reply asap > > --- Ken North wrote: > > Rob Hines wrote: > > > My initial position was to go with an > > Object Database, in > > particular > > >something built around a solution like POETS > > Content Management System. > > However, > > >there have been many individuals that dislike this > > idea, and balk at > > the idea of > > >leaving the safety of the well know RDBMS > > community. I believe that it > > is > > >"natural" to use an ODBMS as an XML repository, > > although it "can be > > done" in an > > >RDBMS. > > > > 1. SQL products such as Oracle, IBM DB2, and > > Informix are > > object-relational DBMSs. The engineering staffs at > > those companies have > > been developing extensions for XML. There will be > > several important > > releases in the next few months (Oracle iFS, IBM's > > XML Extender). You'll > > have the option of storing a XML document in the > > database or as an > > external file. When stored internally, you can > > decompose a document or > > store it as a single column in a table. > > > > 2. POET, Bluestone, Object Design (eXcelon), and > > Adabas (Tamino) are > > also in the XML server space. > > > > 3. "Modeling, Metadata, XML (Web Techniques, June > > 1999) > > http://www.webtechniques.com/archives/1999/06/data/ > > > > 4. Why not bring in the entire lot and do a detailed > > evaluation? Use one > > of the courses as a test case and load its documents > > on all of those > > products. Then you'll be able to determine how > > robust the product is, > > whether doing SQL queries is an advantage, whether > > you need bindings to > > multiple programming languages, which XML parser you > > prefer, who has the > > best tools for server administration, and so on. > > > > > > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > >Archived as: > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > > >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > > following message; > > >(un)subscribe xml-dev > > >To subscribe to the digests, > > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > > message; > > >subscribe xml-dev-digest > > >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > > > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > Archived as: > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > > following message; > > (un)subscribe xml-dev > > To subscribe to the digests, > > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > > subscribe xml-dev-digest > > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 01:58:20 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model References: <006501beee82$0e866340$0500a8c0@platinum> Message-ID: <19990825000009.42178.qmail@hotmail.com> Both ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken North To: Prakash Mandgi ; Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model > Do you really want versioning of the DOM objects, or of the XML document > itself? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prakash Mandgi > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 3:23 PM > Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM > Tree model > > > Hi all, > I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a > new requirement came > in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or > begun or actually implemented > such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. > > Thanks > Prakash > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Wed Aug 25 02:18:50 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: XML Repositories In-Reply-To: <0000B6FC.3068@nttc-pen.navy.mil>; from ROB S HINES on Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 10:32:14AM -0500 References: <0000B6FC.3068@nttc-pen.navy.mil> Message-ID: <19990825102127.B29621@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, Aug 23, 1999 at 10:32:14AM -0500, ROB S HINES wrote: > Being a newbie to the group I have what I consider a burning > question, but has probably already been hashed out. If someone would > point me in the right direction I would be quite appreciative. > Basically I need to make some decisions regarding my position on > Repositories for XML data, specifically Computer Based Training > developed in XML. There will be thousands of courses residing in the > repository, served up world wide. > > My initial position was to go with an Object Database, in particular > something built around a solution like POETS Content Management > System. However, there have been many individuals that dislike this > idea, and balk at the idea of leaving the safety of the well know > RDBMS community. I believe that it is "natural" to use an ODBMS as > an XML repository, although it "can be done" in an RDBMS. However, I > do not seem to carry enough weight to convince all involved. So > either I'm wrong or I'm right, and I would greatly appreciate being > vindicated or proved wrong. Please provide me with your opinions, > and point me to any technical documents that shed light on the > issue. Thanks in advance. A third, often overlooked, alternative is to use a native document repository like SIM. It would be inappropriate for me to say that a document repository is always better than ODBMS, but for handling things that naturally fall into the category of "document" rather than "data" or "object", a native repository is almost alway better than an ODBMS (which is, in turn, better than an RDBMS). SIM stores documents in their native format. There is no translation layer forcing you to blow your document up into a million little pieces for storage but you are still able to index your documents at element and even sub-element level. Native document repositories are not always the way to go, but when looking for a document solution one should always evaluate them along with RDBMS's and ODBMS's, especially given that in most cases they will map to the solution domain far more naturally than the other two categories of product. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Aug 25 02:20:42 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model In-Reply-To: <19990825000009.42178.qmail@hotmail.com> References: <006501beee82$0e866340$0500a8c0@platinum> <19990825000009.42178.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <14275.14091.154700.251530@localhost.localdomain> I think that AlphaWorks's XMLTreeDiff works directly on the DOM: http://alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xmltreediff All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Aug 25 03:39:06 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself References: <3.0.32.19990824152157.018ddb4c@pophost.arbortext.com> Message-ID: <37C349A5.5905E2BD@pacbell.net> Paul Grosso wrote: > > It is true that the line Takuki Kamiya found is in error. > That much is clear. Agreement! > At 12:01 1999 08 24 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >It's clear that it _is_ permitted to redeclare entities (including the > >predeclared ones) in the internal subset. See section 4.6 where it > >talks about various "may" (may redeclare) and "must" (must still be WF, > >and not change the standard effect) cases, none of which could work > >if such redeclaration were disallowed. > > But if anything else is clear, it's that this issue that David claims > is clear isn't clear. I'll disagree ... Paul, there are two issues you're conflating, and we clearly _do_ agree about the one I was talking about: (1) May the built-in entities be declared? (2) If so, what constraints exist on their values? My statement was about the former -- and I pointedly ignored the latter issue. Re the former, the XML spec says "For interoperability, valid XML documents should _declare_ these entities". (Emphasis added.) Your statement is about the latter issue. You're saying that folk using the "&#x3C;" syntax (or "&#x3c" etc) are under the influence of the dark side of XML, and good Jedi XML coders use "&#60" instead. For my thoughts on that issue, read on. > I was the one who argued this before, and I don't want to reopen the > discussion, (But you most certainly did :-) > but I continue to read the following text (quoted from 4.6 > aka http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent): > > If the [predefined] entities in question are declared, > they must be declared as internal entities whose replacement > text is the single character being escaped or a character reference > to that character, as shown below. > > [which is then followed by a list of declarations for the 5 predefined > entities] to say that it is not permissible to declare those 5 entity > references any differently than as shown in that table. There's a world of difference between that text, where "as shown below" introduces an example where entity replacement values conform to that constraint on replacement texts, and the text you appear to be reading: If the entities in question are declared, they must be declared as internal entities whose _literal entity value is_ as shown below. There is no 'table"; the declarations use the same "..." element which is used to introduce examples into the text. In the DTD it's even documented as being used for "illustrations". (If it were a table, I'd be more likely to grant that your interpretation is arguable.) So: Jedi XML coders need not worry about which of the many literal entity values they use, so long as their replacement texts conform to the requirement in the specification. (However, good Jedi will certainly avoid a fight on this issue, since the XML federation doesn't need such declarations. It's the forces of the SGML empire which need them.) > Perhaps it is possible to read the "as" in "as shown below" to mean > "in a vaguely similar manner that does not change the standard effect", > but that is a somewhat non-standard meaning in my experience. Nowhere > in 4.6 does the word "redeclare" appear (as in "may redeclare"). Odd -- nowhere in my post does "in a vaguely similar manner" appear. The spec DOES use the word "declared" in 4.6, and in 4.2 says that entities may be "declared" multiple times. It didn't seem like an unnatural leap to use the word "redeclared", but if it helps you, please feel free to strike the "re". > In > fact, after a couple uses of "may" in the first paragraph unrelated to > the predefined entities themselves, the word "may" does not appear in > section 4.6. It is at least reasonable to believe (as I do) that the > "must be declared" in section 4.6 which I include in my quote above > modifies, among other words, the "as shown below" phrase implying that > it is an error to have a declaration for any of these 5 entities that > differs from that shown in the table. Keep in mind that the "must" is defined in section 1 to indicate "error" which is then elaborated as "results are undefined". Even if your interpretation were generally agreed to be correct, then conformant XML processors would still be completely free to ignore such "error" cases. - Dave p.s. This really made me wonder what the answer was to the question of how many angels can dance on the head of pin. Altavista gave me an answer ... 10,381,120 answers, to be precise! However, I'm still not happy with that result, and I'm now engaged on what may be a fruitless Internet search for the answer to that question. OK, so maybe I'll get back to that USB driver soon ... but surely the Internet should be able to answer such burning questions for us? :-) A page with some more interesting questions is: http://www.nodus-1.com/13th_century.htm They include test results for the Buttered Cat Array. > > paul > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 04:48:26 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model References: <006501beee82$0e866340$0500a8c0@platinum> Message-ID: <19990825025012.55834.qmail@hotmail.com> Both ----- Original Message ----- From: Ken North To: Prakash Mandgi ; Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 5:43 PM Subject: Re: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model > Do you really want versioning of the DOM objects, or of the XML document > itself? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prakash Mandgi > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Date: Tuesday, August 24, 1999 3:23 PM > Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM > Tree model > > > Hi all, > I am implementing XML documents in the DOM tree model. However a > new requirement came > in which required versioning of the DOM tree. Has anyone tried or > begun or actually implemented > such a scenerio. Look forward to hearing from you. > > Thanks > Prakash > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anderst at toolsmiths.se Wed Aug 25 11:32:41 1999 From: anderst at toolsmiths.se (Anders W. Tell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model References: <19990824221947.27406.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <37C3B8DD.A7656799@toolsmiths.se> How do need to access the different versions ? * checkin /checkout a'la CVS * DOM tree with simultaneous acces to all/some versions * Transactional DOM tree where chnages are stored separatlely * ... /anders -- /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ / Financial Toolsmiths AB / / Anders W. Tell / /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Wed Aug 25 12:34:36 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Xanadu/Udanax Message-ID: <144401beeee5$9ee8c910$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> I've just seen the release of the legendary Xanadu system into open source (see http://www.udanax.com/). I hadn't the time to delve into the details but it seems they've put a lot of thought into "Web" data models. They certainly claim some pretty strong results. Is there anyone examining how relevant these results are to XML? XML got started with a focus on seperating content from presentation. It got into pretty deep water when it started to address issues of linking, embedding, versioning and so on. Xanadu on the other hand seemed to focus on these issues, disregarding the presentation issues. So it would seem like each complements the other. And, of course, we must get them to work together - after all, _both_ are fated to replace the current HTML Web :-) Have fun, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Srinivasan_KS at inf.com Wed Aug 25 13:47:05 1999 From: Srinivasan_KS at inf.com (Srinivasan_KS) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Is there any version of EXPAT ON Unix? Message-ID: <8EE756E49A17D21194860008C7F49AFE01E2D636@TWRMSG01> Hi, We have downloaded expat from web-site and If we try to compile elements.c under HP-UX environment, we are getting compilation errors. What may be the problem? Is it written only for windows environment? Early reply would be helpful for us. Regards, vasan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Aug 25 14:37:36 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Xanadu/Udanax In-Reply-To: <144401beeee5$9ee8c910$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> Message-ID: <199908251240.IAA19118@hesketh.net> At 12:35 PM 8/25/99 +0200, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >I've just seen the release of the legendary Xanadu system into open source >(see http://www.udanax.com/). I hadn't the time to delve into the details >but it seems they've put a lot of thought into "Web" data models. They >certainly claim some pretty strong results. Is there anyone examining how >relevant these results are to XML? It sounds great, but I get: 500 Server Error The hard transfer limit for this user has been reached Could someone set up a mirror site, maybe? Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Aug 25 14:45:39 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: More chaos coming down the pike References: <001a01beed8d$d4297150$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <37C3D768.58123CA6@prescod.net> Mike Spreitzer wrote: > > Why wouldn't you distribute the real source (XMI?)? That seems better > than distributing something derived in a standard way from the source. Only the XMI or the DTD can be canonical. Only one can formally define the set of legal documents. If it is the XMI then why are fiddling with a DTD at all? If it is the DTD then you have the version skew problem I described. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pmandgi at hotmail.com Wed Aug 25 15:43:31 1999 From: pmandgi at hotmail.com (Prakash Mandgi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model References: <19990824221947.27406.qmail@hotmail.com> <37C3B8DD.A7656799@toolsmiths.se> Message-ID: <19990825134505.65757.qmail@hotmail.com> In need simulataneous access to all the versions of the DOM tree on demand. I do not know much about transactional DOM trees ? Is there a URL for that Regards Prakash ----- Original Message ----- From: Anders W. Tell To: Prakash Mandgi Cc: Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 4:35 AM Subject: Re: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model > How do need to access the different versions ? > > * checkin /checkout a'la CVS > * DOM tree with simultaneous acces to all/some versions > * Transactional DOM tree where chnages are stored separatlely > * ... > > /anders > -- > /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > / Financial Toolsmiths AB / > / Anders W. Tell / > /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com Wed Aug 25 15:55:47 1999 From: florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com (Florin Popescu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: is this an expat BUG? Message-ID: <001101beef01$cb001aa0$0b1a10ac@nl.compuware.com> Hi All, I have the following scenario: I have in a database field some C code: Ex: if(u->stream) { break; u->stream=NULL; } >From this database I create an XML export file. My first question: Do I have to escape all CR in order to keep the information consistent? Ex: if(u->stream) { break; u->stream=NULL; } or I can live those " " out? I use jclark EXPAT to parse back in the database the XML file after I edit it. If I do not use the parser will return all the lines in one long string skipping all the CR-s. In my opinion this should be correct according with WC3 specifications (ignore al CR,LF, tabs and trailing spaces) (????). But the problem comes when I use TABS. The parser stops returning "9" (via dataHandler()) in both situations: 1. Normal tab (9) 2. Escaped tab ( ) Ex: if(u->stream) { break; u->stream=NULL; } is the same like if(u->stream) { break; u->stream=NULL; } Is this a BUG? I was expecting that the parser will ignore the normal TAB and will return "9" only in the escaped situation, in the same way like it treats CR-s. Pls. let me know where I am wrong or if this is a known bug. Regards, Florin Florin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From barton.stanley at innovision.com Wed Aug 25 16:36:50 1999 From: barton.stanley at innovision.com (Barton Stanley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Xanadu/Udanax In-Reply-To: <199908251240.IAA19118@hesketh.net> References: <144401beeee5$9ee8c910$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> Message-ID: <4.1.19990825093535.00a56100@mail> This URL seems to work: http://udanax.xanadu.com/ Based on the section "The URL" on this page, I assume that this is the same as www.udanax.com. Barton Stanley At 08:43 AM 8/25/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >It sounds great, but I get: > >500 Server Error > >The hard transfer limit for this user has been reached > >Could someone set up a mirror site, maybe? > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tscola at research.att.com Wed Aug 25 16:49:47 1999 From: tscola at research.att.com (Tom Scola) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: Xanadu/Udanax References: <199908251240.IAA19118@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37C4032C.1EA92432@research.att.com> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > The hard transfer limit for this user has been reached > > Could someone set up a mirror site, maybe? There's one at . xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp Wed Aug 25 18:31:12 1999 From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:23 2004 Subject: XML 1.0 spec appears to violate itself References: <02bf01beee30$21f9ea20$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> <37C2EC17.AA1A8B88@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <017001beef18$e37c99c0$23f5a8c0@246.ne.jp> David Brownell wrote: > > > Even if we assume "lt" could be redeclared in the internal DTD subset for now > > (I guess we can even extrapolate this is the case since the spec itself > > redeclares it) ... > > It's clear that it _is_ permitted to redeclare entities (including the > predeclared ones) in the internal subset. See section 4.6 where it > talks about various "may" (may redeclare) and "must" (must still be WF, > and not change the standard effect) cases, none of which could work > if such redeclaration were disallowed. > I believe I read the spec exactly the same way as you did. What I felt it is trying to stipulate was that "they (predefined entities) must be declared as internal entities whose replacement text is the single character being escaped or a character reference to that character", not "as shown below". I am not as confident as you on this since English nor XML is not my mother tongue though. ;-) > > I think that XML processor shall find the entity as "not well-formed" when it > > tries to expand references to "lt" (i.e. < ) if it have been redeclared > > as "<", because "<" does not match the production rule for content. > > > > Am I missing something? > > Only that, as Richard implied, most XML processors treat those entities > as "predefined" and so any additional declarations are often ignored. > That's permitted; the spec says a warning "may" be issued, but they're > not required. > As Paul Grosso pointed out, the word "redeclare" does not appear in section 4.6 at least literally. Then another question have occurred to me. Does the spec insist that predefined entities be dealt as if they were _physically_declared_ ? If the answer to this question is NO, explicit declarations for predefined entities are not additional declaration really, hence it should be respected and wf-error needs to be reported for some cases such as "lt" having been declared as "<". = Takuki Kamiya Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749 = = FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731) = xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smcnabb at MAILGO.com Wed Aug 25 18:34:20 1999 From: smcnabb at MAILGO.com (Sheri McNabb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: database conversion to XML Message-ID: Hi... I'm totally new to XML; bear with me.... I am saving existing Microsoft Access data in XML format using SQL and ADO. The format it saves in is a little confusing for me - not what I see on the test info available. Has anyone worked with this and/or seen documentation that may point me in the right direction? Thanks very much-- Sheri -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990825/7385c75b/attachment.htm From zia2 at home.com Wed Aug 25 19:04:06 1999 From: zia2 at home.com (Zia Home) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: [ANN] Download ICE and XML Framework Message-ID: <01d501beef1d$3698dbb0$20330118@C980732-D.frmt1.sfba.home.com> The LiveBiz team at Xenosys Corporation is please to announce the immediate availability for download of Information and Content Exchange (ICE) and XML frameworks. The framework implement the XML based industry standard ICE protocol as Enterprise Java Beans (EJBs) and Servlets. The ICE framework is built on top of a XML framework. The XML framework is a SAX based white-box framework for marshalling and unmarshalling of data structures. The frameworks emphasizes modular design, code reuse and efficient processing for server based systems. http://www.livebiz.com/jice -------------------------------------------------------------------- Zia Khan, Member LiveBiz Team Xenosys Corporation, 258 Java Drive, Sunnyvale, CA 94089 Cell Phone: 510-872-3981 Phone: 408.744.0309 Fax: 408.744.9007 e-mail: zia@xenosys.com WWW: http://www.livebiz.com Developers of LiveBusiness Foundation Classes for Java -------------------------------------------------------------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Wed Aug 25 19:37:11 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Special characters in Attributes Message-ID: <19990825173926.300.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Hi, I have the following in the XML DTD In the XML Document, The use of '&' and '<' is giving an error during parsing. But > and ' is working. Could anyone throw light on this? TIA, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elm at arbortext.com Wed Aug 25 19:58:14 1999 From: elm at arbortext.com (Eve L. Maler) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Special characters in Attributes In-Reply-To: <19990825173926.300.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990825135602.00a605e0@pophost.arbortext.com> In attribute values (and in regular content, unless in a CDATA section), & and < must *always* be escaped. Although > has its own magic predefined entity for symmetry reasons, it's not required to be escaped. You don't have to escape a single quote if you have used double quotes around the attribute value, and vice versa. Eve At 10:39 AM 8/25/99 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote: >Hi, > >I have the following in the XML DTD > > > > >In the XML Document, > > > >The use of '&' and '<' is giving an error during >parsing. But > and ' is working. Could anyone throw >light on this? > >TIA, > >Malliks > > > > >_________________________________________________________ >DO YOU YAHOO!? >Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed Aug 25 22:13:09 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: XML Repositories Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F072@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Being a newbie to the group I have what I consider a > burning question, but has probably already been hashed out. If someone would > point me in the right direction I would be quite appreciative. Basically I need to > make some decisions regarding my position on Repositories for XML data, > specifically Computer Based Training developed in XML. There will be thousands of courses > residing in the repository, served up world wide. > My initial position was to go with an Object Database, in particular > something built around a solution like POETS Content Management System. However, > there have been many individuals that dislike this idea, and balk at the idea of > leaving the safety of the well know RDBMS community. We've made this journey and learnt quite a few lessons from it. We were using an object database (an early version of Jasmine), but after a couple of years we reverted to relational databases. The reasons: - people were storing data in very fine-grained form and it took ages to reassemble for display. It's better to store the data relatively coarse-grained and split it up (by parsing) when you need to. - we hit a skills bottleneck, there were only a few gurus who understood the technology - the class library was getting ridiculously complex, we weren't achieving enough re-use across different projects to justify the generality of the infrastructure - we hit immaturity problems with the technology (e.g. lack of low-level performance monitoring and tuning tools) - the kind of boring things where 20-year-old products like ORACLE really score. Regards, Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Thu Aug 26 00:14:55 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F072@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: Woo hoo, I'm finally off the edge and have dove into the world of XML/DOM etc... I have a question tho... Here's what I want to do: I want to have a document "container.xml" ]> &blah; then, blah would contain: ]> Binesh Bannerjee I'm using Sun's DOM implementation... If I'm not misinterpreting, Listing 6-17 in "XML: Extensible Markup Language" by Elliotte Rusty Harold on page 202 does exactly that... If I run Sun's XmlDocument.createXmlDocument("file:///path/blah.xml",true); works fine... However running XmlDocument.createXmlDocument("file:///path/container.xml",true); yields: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Expected "encoding=...". at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2797) Removing the xml PI from blah.xml (which makes it an invalid doc, if I've read the spec correctly) yields: org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: The content beginning " blah.xml: Binesh Bannerjee container.xml: ]> &blah; How does one include _valid_ xml docs in other _valid_ xml docs?? Am I doing something wrong, or is it time to switch DOM implementations? Thanks... Binesh Bannerjee xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at valinet.com Thu Aug 26 02:47:33 1999 From: abrahams at valinet.com (Paul W. Abrahams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Defn. of Extender (Pdn. 89) again Message-ID: <37C48F86.969362B@valinet.com> Having searched the unicode.org website, I'm still puzzled as to what an extender character is. The issue was raised once before, back in January, by the following interchange: ------------------ Re: Extender characters, Production 89 of XML 1.0 John Cowan (cowan@locke.ccil.org) Mon, 11 Jan 1999 14:07:50 -0500 Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > In XML ["extender"] > characters can be used anywhere a base character or ideographic > character can be used. This is not quite true, because extenders are not name-start characters in either XML or Unicode. > However I have been unable to find in the Unicode book or Web site any > definition of what makes a character an extender. Can anyone clue me in on > why some Unicode characters have the extender property while others don't? > What's the logic behind this grouping of characters across languages? Roughly (and unofficially) speaking, an extender is something that isn't a letter or combining mark but often appears embedded in words. For example, one may use L plus MIDDLE DOT as a compatibility equivalent of L WITH MIDDLE DOT in writing Catalan, and we do not want a Catalan name to break into two names at the MIDDLE DOT. (The dot is used to distinguish two successive Ls, written with a dot, from the unitary Catalan letter "ll", written without a dot.) Extenders are enumerated (but not explained) in Section 5.14 of the Unicode Standard. ----------- The description of the Unicode 2.1 character database says nothing about what an extender is. The extenders listed in that database are: 00B7;MIDDLE DOT;Po;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; 02D0;MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON;Lm;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; 02D1;MODIFIER LETTER HALF TRIANGULAR COLON;Lm;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; 0387;GREEK ANO TELEIA;Po;0;ON;00B7;;;;N;;;;; 0640;ARABIC TATWEEL;Lm;0;R;;;;;N;;;;; 0E46;THAI CHARACTER MAIYAMOK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;THAI MAI YAMOK;;;; 0EC6;LAO KO LA;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3005;IDEOGRAPHIC ITERATION MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3031;VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3032;VERTICAL KANA REPEAT WITH VOICED SOUND MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3033;VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK UPPER HALF;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3034;VERTICAL KANA REPEAT WITH VOICED SOUND MARK UPPER HALF;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 3035;VERTICAL KANA REPEAT MARK LOWER HALF;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 309D;HIRAGANA ITERATION MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 309E;HIRAGANA VOICED ITERATION MARK;Lm;0;L;309D 3099;;;;N;;;;; 30FC;KATAKANA-HIRAGANA PROLONGED SOUND MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 30FD;KATAKANA ITERATION MARK;Lm;0;L;;;;;N;;;;; 30FE;KATAKANA VOICED ITERATION MARK;Lm;0;L;30FD 3099;;;;N;;;;; The extenders each fall into category Po (Punctuation, Other) or category Lm (Letter, Modifier). However, many other characters fall into these categories also. For example: 02B2;MODIFIER LETTER SMALL J;Lm;0;L; 006A;;;;N;;;;; 02B3;MODIFIER LETTER SMALL R;Lm;0;L; 0072;;;;N;;;;; These all fall into category Lm. And the following, among many others, fall into category Po: 0021;EXCLAMATION MARK;Po;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; 0022;QUOTATION MARK;Po;0;ON;;;;;N;;;;; 0023;NUMBER SIGN;Po;0;ET;;;;;N;;;;; So despite the statement in the XML spec that ``the character classes defined here can be derived from the Unicode character database as follows:'', there doesn't seem to be anything in that database that would uniquely characterize the extenders. The statement "Character #x00B7 is classified as an extender, because the property list so identifies it" is puzzling since there's nothing in the property list cited above that would identify it as being such; in fact, the property list is identical to that of `0021;EXCLAMATION MARK'. Can anyone elaborate on John Cowan's statement that "an extender is something that isn't a letter or combining mark but often appears embedded in words"? And finally: I have the Unicode 2.0 book in front of me, and "extender" appears neither in the General Index nor, as far as I can tell, in the Table of Contents. Paul Abrahams xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at valinet.com Thu Aug 26 05:03:23 1999 From: abrahams at valinet.com (Paul W. Abrahams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Defn. of Extender (Pdn. 89) again References: <37C48F86.969362B@valinet.com> <37C4A89A.80A36DCF@goshawk.com> Message-ID: <37C4AF94.83AED020@valinet.com> Steve Dahl wrote: > My guess is that 0xB7 and 0x387 were included either by accident, or else in Unicode 1.0, they > were incorrectly classified as Lm characters. I can't find my old Unicode 1.0 chart, so I > don't know. > > My guess is that Extender character means a character classified as Lm. As far as I can tell, > these are characters that make no sense unless they follow another letter. Think of them as > being equivalent to diacritical marks, except that they take up space next to the modified > character, whereas normal diacritical marks fit in the same visual character cell as the > character they modify. The Lm character must always be displayed next to its preceding > character, and it's illegal to break the line between an Lm character and its preceding > character. The trouble is that there are lots of other Lm characters besides those classified as extenders. For example: > > 02B2;MODIFIER LETTER SMALL J;Lm;0;L; 006A;;;;N;;;;; > 02B3;MODIFIER LETTER SMALL R;Lm;0;L; 0072;;;;N;;;;; Why aren't those also considered to be extenders? There seems to be some history and motivation here that needs explaining. Paul xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From xml.warren at internetcantina.com Thu Aug 26 06:28:55 1999 From: xml.warren at internetcantina.com (Warren Fosse) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: XML World in Canada Message-ID: <008a01beef7c$305d8110$77062bd1@ig88> Hello all, I have a simple question for those of you who may be aware of the upcoming XML World conference in Canada. Do you feel that a small team of programmers that are very interested in XML, but have a fairly limited understanding of it currently, will find this conference to be informative? Or will this most likely be too in depth for those who are new to XML? This is a team with a solid background using HTML, JAVA, Java-Script, and DHTML. Please let me know your feelings. Warren xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tsuzu at flab.fujitsu.co.jp Thu Aug 26 07:08:39 1999 From: tsuzu at flab.fujitsu.co.jp (Toshimitsu Suzuki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: [announce]HyBrick Page reopen In-Reply-To: <4.1-J.19990803155608.0143af10@pop.akashi.flab.fujitsu.co.j p> References: <199907300932.LAA17860@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com> <3.0.5.32.19990729122245.0096ec80@pophost.fsc.fujitsu.com> Message-ID: <4.1-J.19990826140030.0141be10@pop.akashi.flab.fujitsu.co.jp> Hi, All We reopen the HyBrick homepage! The binay is same as one of the previus site(www.fsc.fujitsu.com). The HyBrick is a XML/SGML browser supporting xlink/xpointer. The URL: http://www.fujitsu.co.jp/hypertext/free/HyBrick/en/index.html Thank you. --- ???? ???????????, ????????????, ????????? ????674-5888 ????????????64 TEL.078-934-8249 e-mail:tsuzu@flab.fujitsu.co.jp NIFTY:KXB05477 FAX.078-934-3312 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Thu Aug 26 10:56:04 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: XML World in Canada Message-ID: Sure, you need at least to understand all the concepts and the interests of XML and it derived standards : RDF, XSL, XSLT, Schema... Beside that, no further knowledge is required for the XML dev. Sebastien > -----Original Message----- > From: Warren Fosse [mailto:xml.warren@internetcantina.com] > Sent: jeudi 26 ao?t 1999 06:34 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: XML World in Canada > > > Hello all, > > I have a simple question for those of you who may be aware of > the upcoming > XML World conference in Canada. Do you feel that a small team of > programmers that are very interested in XML, but have a fairly limited > understanding of it currently, will find this conference to > be informative? > Or will this most likely be too in depth for those who are new to XML? > > This is a team with a solid background using HTML, JAVA, > Java-Script, and > DHTML. > > Please let me know your feelings. > > Warren > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From c.galiano at ua.es Thu Aug 26 13:19:49 1999 From: c.galiano at ua.es (Cristobal Galiano Fernandez) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: XSL wanted Message-ID: <37C52436.45ECBC92@ua.es> I need a generic XLS file that giving a XML file give de Javascript functions 1) XML File Alexander D Hildyard Anon nobody@nowhere.com Twilite M TRUE TRUE I24X79</> </> </> 2) Javascript functions asociated (generated via XSL) function AUTHORS() { this.PSEUDOAUTHOR = new Array(); this.AUTHOR = new Array(); return this; } function AUTHOR() { this.SPECIALFLAGS = new Array(); this.INITIAL2 = new Array(); this.EMAIL = new Array(); this.SURNAME = new Array(); this.INITIAL1 = new Array(); this.FIRSTNAME = new Array(); return this; } function PSEUDOAUTHOR() { this.TITLE = new Array(); return this; } function SPECIALFLAGS() { this.FLAGS4 = new Array(); this.FLAGS1 = new Array(); return this; thanks in advance Crist?bal xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rlpatil at wipsys.soft.net Thu Aug 26 13:58:54 1999 From: rlpatil at wipsys.soft.net (rlpatil) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: can anyone suggest where to start Message-ID: <37C5DC1D.B9E851BE@wipsys.soft.net> Hi all, Can any one suggest from where I should start learning XML as a beginner. I what to learn XML to use it with java. Are there any free projects going on like on Linux using XML and java which will help me to learn as will as contibute to the project. Waiting for reply Thanx. Rajshekhar xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Aug 26 17:49:02 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? References: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908251753160.19216-100000@hex21.com> Message-ID: <37C56269.43ED3EA1@pacbell.net> External entities may not have DTDs. They also may not have standalone='...'" attributes in their text declarations. In both cases, the XML spec requires fatal errors to be reported; unless, that is, you've got a non-validating processor which isn't reading the external entity! If you find an "XML" processor which supports the nesting that you're trying, return it to the vendor for a full refund ... ;-) - Dave Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > > Woo hoo, I'm finally off the edge and have dove into the world > of XML/DOM etc... I have a question tho... > > Here's what I want to do: > I want to have a document "container.xml" > > <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no" ?> > <!DOCTYPE container [ > <!ELEMENT container ANY> > <!ENTITY blah SYSTEM "blah.xml"> > ]> > > <container> > &blah; > </container> > > then, > blah would contain: > <?xml version="1.0" standalone="yes" ?> > <!DOCTYPE data [ > <!ELEMENT data (firstname,lastname)> > <!ELEMENT firstname (#PCDATA)> > <!ELEMENT lastname (#PCDATA)> > ]> > <data> > <firstname>Binesh</firstname> > <lastname>Bannerjee</lastname> > </data> > > I'm using Sun's DOM implementation... If I'm not misinterpreting, Listing > 6-17 in "XML: Extensible Markup Language" by Elliotte Rusty Harold on page > 202 does exactly that... > > If I run Sun's > XmlDocument.createXmlDocument("file:///path/blah.xml",true); > > works fine... > However > running XmlDocument.createXmlDocument("file:///path/container.xml",true); > > yields: > org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: Expected "encoding=...". > at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2797) > > Removing the xml PI from blah.xml (which makes it an invalid doc, if I've > read the spec correctly) yields: > org.xml.sax.SAXParseException: The content beginning "<!" is not legal markup. Perhaps the "!" () character should be a letter. > at com.sun.xml.parser.Parser.fatal(Parser.java:2797) > > What's going on? > Shouldn't I be able to do this? If I remove the &blah; in > container.xml it parses fine... If not, what is the best way of doing > what I want? Even this fails: > blah.dtd: > <!ELEMENT data (firstname,lastname)> > <!ELEMENT firstname (#PCDATA)> > <!ELEMENT lastname (#PCDATA)> > > blah.xml: > <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?> > <!DOCTYPE data SYSTEM "blah.dtd"> > <data> > <firstname>Binesh</firstname> > <lastname>Bannerjee</lastname> > </data> > container.xml: > <?xml version="1.0" standalone="no"?> > <!DOCTYPE container [ > <!ELEMENT container ANY> > <!ENTITY blah SYSTEM "blah.xml"> > ]> > <container> > &blah; > </container> > > How does one include _valid_ xml docs in other _valid_ xml docs?? > Am I doing something wrong, or is it time to switch DOM implementations? > > Thanks... > Binesh Bannerjee > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Thu Aug 26 19:27:10 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? In-Reply-To: <37C56269.43ED3EA1@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908261213330.16563-100000@hex21.com> On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, David Brownell wrote: > External entities may not have DTDs. They also may not have > standalone='...'" attributes in their text declarations. In > both cases, the XML spec requires fatal errors to be reported; > unless, that is, you've got a non-validating processor which > isn't reading the external entity! > > If you find an "XML" processor which supports the nesting that > you're trying, return it to the vendor for a full refund ... ;-) OK... But, then how _do_ you go about including another document inside your own? Or can a valid document _not_ include another valid document? Must I create invalid document fragments and separate DTD's if I just want to blend them all into a single document? (Since the absence of a DTD makes a doc not valid, right?) Binesh > > - Dave > > * There's nothing wrong with me... http://www.panix.com/~binesh * * There's something wrong with the universe. http://www.hex21.com/ * * Q. What if I want to have sex before marriage? CGI/Java Consulting * * A. Well then, you'll just have to be prepared to die. * * Sex education, shown on CBS's <60 Minutes>, 6 Mar 94 * xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Aug 26 21:10:10 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? References: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908261213330.16563-100000@hex21.com> Message-ID: <37C591A8.3BF6236C@pacbell.net> Binesh Bannerjee wrote: > > On Thu, 26 Aug 1999, David Brownell wrote: > > > External entities may not have DTDs. They also may not have > > standalone='...'" attributes in their text declarations. In > > both cases, the XML spec requires fatal errors to be reported; > > unless, that is, you've got a non-validating processor which > > isn't reading the external entity! > > > > If you find an "XML" processor which supports the nesting that > > you're trying, return it to the vendor for a full refund ... ;-) > > OK... But, then how _do_ you go about including another document > inside your own? Or can a valid document _not_ include another > valid document? Valid documents may not include other valid documents. "You can't do that ...". > Must I create invalid document fragments and > separate DTD's if I just want to blend them all into a single > document? > > (Since the absence of a DTD makes a doc not valid, right?) External entities are by definition not valid documents; they may never have a DTD ("<!DOCTYPE ...>") declaration. The question to ask about external entities is whether they are well formed _as external entities_ ... they're basically "content" (what you'd find inside an element -- text, zero-to-N elements, comments, PIs) with an optional text declaration (which can be as minimal as "<?xml encoding='US-ASCII'?>"; encoding is required). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu Aug 26 22:06:51 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: XML4C2 Version 2.3.1 released Message-ID: <872567D9.006E8F4D.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Just wanted to let everyone know that Version 2.3.1 of XML4C2 is now out on Alphaworks (www.alphaworks.ibm.com.) Feel free to grab it and let us know what you think. This release is a reference release (one that we support to specific customers for a particular period of time) so our focus here was primarily on getting onto some more platforms and doing reasonable fixes that were big bang for the buck without much danger of destabilization. So its not a massive change from 2.2.x, but it certainly is worth getting because of bug fixes and greater platform support. Now that this reference release is behind us, the next few subsequent versions will represent more forward looking and wide ranging changes and improvements, particularly in the areas of conformance and architectural flexibility. ---------------------------------------- Dean Roddey Software Weenie IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley roddey@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From anderst at toolsmiths.se Fri Aug 27 09:19:48 1999 From: anderst at toolsmiths.se (Anders W. Tell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Has anyone implemented versioning XML documents in a DOM Tree model References: <19990824221947.27406.qmail@hotmail.com> <37C3B8DD.A7656799@toolsmiths.se> <19990825134505.65757.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <37C63CBD.1D598C31@toolsmiths.se> What I meant was something similar to what the Mozilla team have impemented with their TxMgr (transactionsmanager with undo/redo semantics). <http://www.mozilla.org/editor/undo.html> <http://www.mozilla.org/editor/logging/api-logging.html> /anders -- /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ / Financial Toolsmiths AB / / Anders W. Tell / /_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Fri Aug 27 15:27:47 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? In-Reply-To: <37C591A8.3BF6236C@pacbell.net> References: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908261213330.16563-100000@hex21.com> Message-ID: <v03102802b3ec3d206f4d@[168.100.203.234]> At 12:12 PM -0700 8/26/99, David Brownell wrote: >Valid documents may not include other valid documents. "You can't >do that ...". > Eventually this may be possible through XLinks and XML fragments, but it isn't possible using straight DTDs and external entities. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From binesh at hex21.com Fri Aug 27 16:09:08 1999 From: binesh at hex21.com (Binesh Bannerjee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? In-Reply-To: <v03102802b3ec3d206f4d@[168.100.203.234]> Message-ID: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908271003020.5106-100000@hex21.com> On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > > Eventually this may be possible through XLinks and XML fragments, but it > isn't possible using straight DTDs and external entities. So, does this mean in your book on XML (ISBN 0-7645-3199-9), Listing 6-17 won't really work? That's a bummer... I could have used that... Oh well, I guess I'll _have_ to store the DTD _fragments_ and the data separately and then have a meta program that will dynamically weave together a full DTD... But I thought XML would save me from that... Binesh > > > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | > | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | > | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | > | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > * There's nothing wrong with me... http://www.panix.com/~binesh * * There's something wrong with the universe. http://www.hex21.com/ * * Chance favors the prepared mind. CGI/Java Consulting * xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From finarfin49 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 27 17:09:02 1999 From: finarfin49 at hotmail.com (alicia malone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:24 2004 Subject: Interdev Message-ID: <19990827151108.23828.qmail@hotmail.com> I wanted to throw a question out there to the universe. Does anyone know if interdev can work with xml?? I am exploring the possibility of migrating an oracle database to xml and using interdev to develope the web front end. Can it be done. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tom.otvos at pervasive.com Fri Aug 27 17:41:52 1999 From: tom.otvos at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Is there any version of EXPAT ON Unix? Message-ID: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C85DD@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com> We have a version running on Solaris, and that did not present any particular difficulties aside from creating the Makefiles. Without seeing what your errors are, it is impossible to suggest what may be the problem. Tom Otvos Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc. "We put the 'Go' in Tango! Yeah, baby." > -----Original Message----- > From: Srinivasan_KS [mailto:Srinivasan_KS@inf.com] > Sent: Wednesday, August 25, 1999 7:47 AM > To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' > Subject: Is there any version of EXPAT ON Unix? > > > Hi, > We have downloaded expat from web-site and If we try to compile > elements.c under > HP-UX environment, we are getting compilation errors. What may be the > problem? Is it written only for windows environment? Early > reply would be > helpful for us. > > Regards, > vasan > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk Fri Aug 27 17:44:57 1999 From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Interdev References: <19990827151108.23828.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: <37C6B2DC.A5D72CD3@bbc.co.uk> alicia malone wrote: > > I wanted to throw a question out there to the universe. Does anyone know if > interdev can work with xml?? I am exploring the possibility of migrating an > oracle database to xml and using interdev to develope the web front end. > Can it be done. Possibly. I'm more interested in why you would want to do that. I know oracle is slow, but parsing XML is going to be much slower. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Aug 27 18:08:53 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Interdev In-Reply-To: <37C6B2DC.A5D72CD3@bbc.co.uk> References: <19990827151108.23828.qmail@hotmail.com> <37C6B2DC.A5D72CD3@bbc.co.uk> Message-ID: <14278.47114.535841.815718@localhost.localdomain> Matt Sergeant writes: > alicia malone wrote: > > > > I wanted to throw a question out there to the universe. Does > > anyone know if interdev can work with xml?? I am exploring the > > possibility of migrating an oracle database to xml and using > > interdev to develope the web front end. Can it be done. > > Possibly. I'm more interested in why you would want to do that. I know > oracle is slow, but parsing XML is going to be much slower. It could make sense in a distributed environment, where you won't have an relational database or a good network connection on each machine. The database would have to be small (say, under 10MB), or you would have to deliver a fairly focussed snapshot with the XML. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 28 03:10:36 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Expat!!(XML Parser) Message-ID: <19990828011333.326.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Does anyone knw how to use Expat XML Parser written by James Clark. Can U please help me with that. I wannna parse an XML Doc?? Thx Bye __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dgoa at ou.edu Sat Aug 28 05:17:16 1999 From: dgoa at ou.edu (William X. Kerber III) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: MIVA, PHP, Coldfusion. References: <19990828011333.326.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Message-ID: <37C755FD.610CA827@ou.edu> Hi...I'm new on this list. I've read a little on XML but I have alot of questions. Are Miva, PHP, and coldfusion subsets of XML? All of them mention XML. Which is the easiest / and most affordable one to use when developing a Web application connected to an ODBC datasource.? thank you, dgoa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Sun Aug 29 00:58:30 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: DTD's in external Entities? In-Reply-To: <Pine.SC5.4.10.9908271003020.5106-100000@hex21.com> References: <v03102802b3ec3d206f4d@[168.100.203.234]> Message-ID: <v03102804b3ee188ad699@[168.100.203.234]> At 10:11 AM -0400 8/27/99, Binesh Bannerjee wrote: >On Fri, 27 Aug 1999, Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > >> >> Eventually this may be possible through XLinks and XML fragments, but it >> isn't possible using straight DTDs and external entities. > >So, does this mean in your book on XML (ISBN 0-7645-3199-9), Listing 6-17 >won't really work? > Listing 6-17 in XML: Extensible Markup Language works, but only if the three referenced external entities (header.xml, footer.xml, and body.xml) don't have document type declarations. If they do the parser will reject them. >That's a bummer... I could have used that... Oh well, I guess I'll >_have_ to store the DTD _fragments_ and the data separately and then have >a meta program that will dynamically weave together a full DTD... But >I thought XML would save me from that... > Yes, that's pretty much what you have to do. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 01:17:32 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining *three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. As a developer, I believe that this is a seriously broken idea: we need a single HTML Namespace URI so that we can identify and process HTML markup embedded in other document types; if we have to check three or more qualified names just to figure out that we have an HTML <p> element (and write three separate patterns in XSL, etc.) then we're in serious trouble. I'd like to encourage everyone on XML-Dev to read the XHTML PR (I give the URL in the first paragraph) and then to send their comments, positive or negative, to any or all of the following locations (unfortunately, the XHTML spec doesn't give an address specifically for public comments, so you have to take your best guess): w3c-html-review@w3.org w3t-html@w3.org (and, also, to be safe) www-html-editor@w3.org. You can also send a copy of your comments to www-html@w3.org if you happen to belong to that list, so that they will be archived in a public place. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 01:42:37 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <199908282345.TAA25536@earth.isni.net> At 07:19 PM 8/28/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed >Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. > It's no more of a "threat" than the "threat" of people creating their own namespaces for any purpose, which is indeed the entire idea behind namespaces. If three namespaces present such an insurmountable problem, perhaps again, the current "implementation" of namespaces is at fault. >As a developer, I believe that this is a seriously broken idea: we >need a single HTML Namespace URI so that we can identify and process >HTML markup embedded in other document types; if we have to check >three or more qualified names just to figure out that we have an HTML ><p> element (and write three separate patterns in XSL, etc.) then >we're in serious trouble. Anyone creating a generic processor will still "have to check" a variety of qualified names. This is not anything new or surprising brought about by XHTML. This will happen anywhere XML is used in a truly open environment. Ann xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun Aug 29 09:29:22 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <199908282345.TAA25536@earth.isni.net> Message-ID: <180401bef1f0$64bbb1e0$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> Ann Navarro <ann@webgeek.com> wrote: > At 07:19 PM 8/28/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed > >Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > > > >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining > >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and > >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. Is this a done deal? > It's no more of a "threat" than the "threat" of people creating their own > namespaces for any purpose, which is indeed the entire idea behind > namespaces. That depends on what you feel "the entire idea of namespaces" to be. To me, the main idea is to allow applications to distinguish between tags with different semantics. By qualifying a tag with a namespace, the document writer essentially informs the application that the semantics of the tag is that associated with the namespace. The fact that this semantics is defined outside the XML standards is besides the point. So according to this idea, applications are built under the assumption that 'my:foo' and 'your:foo' are completely different, with nothing whatsoever in common. The fact they both have the name 'foo' is considered accidental. _That's_ the whole idea. Providing three different namespaces which have the same semantics would force application writers to abandon this assumption. In XHTML, 'traditional:p', 'strict:p' and 'frameset:p' are the same thing. This would seriously mess XHTML applications up - put another way, it would cause generic XML applications to fail on XHTML documents. For example, consider that a generic XML application must never mix up a 'commercial:order' with an 'administrative:order', no matter what. On the other hand, one would expect that a 'strict:p' element would be interchangable with a 'traditional:p' element. For example, in an XHTML editor, I'd expect to be able to cut one and paste it in replacement of another. That seems like a messy issue, unless I'm missing something. > If three namespaces present such an insurmountable problem, perhaps again, > the current "implementation" of namespaces is at fault. The problem is not with the namespaces implementation (or definition, or design). It is with using them to a different purpose then they were designed for. Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jkuan at infoserve.net Sun Aug 29 11:14:38 1999 From: jkuan at infoserve.net (Jami Kuan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Question: How to save an XML file locally using DOM in IE5? Message-ID: <001801bef1ff$bebd8b00$361652d1@workstn> Hi, I am trying to create a GUI in IE 5 for editing XML documents using the DOM. After either adding/deleting elements from an XML document, an error is always given when I apply the save method, trying to save a copy of the changed XML file locally. Could anyone who knows how answer my question, please? Here is what I did in my Jscript: <XML ID="domData" SRC="myFile.xml"></XML> // get the XML document object theXMLDoc = document.all.domData; // use DOM interface/method to edit the XML document // call the save method after all changes are made docXML=document.all("domData"); docXML.save("myFile.xml"); -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990829/0ea46d74/attachment.htm From paul at prescod.net Sun Aug 29 15:31:41 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] Message-ID: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> This is from Eliot Kimber (<eliot@isogen.com>): Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: > > It's no more of a "threat" than the "threat" of people creating their own > > namespaces for any purpose, which is indeed the entire idea behind > > namespaces. > > That depends on what you feel "the entire idea of namespaces" to be. To me, > the main idea is to allow applications to distinguish between tags with > different semantics. By qualifying a tag with a namespace, the document > writer essentially informs the application that the semantics of the tag is > that associated with the namespace. The fact that this semantics is defined > outside the XML standards is besides the point. No--namespaces have *absolutely nothing* to do with semantics. The only possible purpose of namespaces is to disambiguate names. *ANY ASSUMPTIONS MADE ABOUT SEMANTICS BASED ONLY ON NAME ARE UNJUSTIFIED AND UNSUPPORTABLE*. For example, I may have many names in different name spaces that map to the same semantic--there is no way to describe this using name spaces alone. A given name may have different semantics based on its context (either its structural context or its use context). Because the name space mechanism provides neither a formal binding between name space names and semantic definitions nor name space names to vocabulary definition bindings, it is impossible to make *ANY* reliable inferences about the meanings of names in an XML document. That is, you either know what the semantics of a particular name are or you do not. The binding is always to the entire name, not just to the namespace prefix. Making assumptions based on the prefix alone is at best a guess. First, unless you personally defined the name space, you have no way of knowing if a given name is in fact a "valid" name in the name space because there is no definition of how one defines the set of names in a name space. If I find the name "myspace:foo" there is no standardized way to validate that "foo" is a member of the name space "myspace" because there is no standardized definition mechanism for the vocabulary of which "foo" may or may not be a member. Thus, all the name-space prefix is doing is ensuring that "myname:foo" will not collide with any other name that ends in "foo". AND THAT IS ALL. Namespaces were intended to solve the problem of *name collision*, which they do. But they explicitly do not have anything to do with binding names to semantics and therefore you are *never* justified in infering semantics from namespace use. You may know that a given name space *has been bound* to a given set of semantics, but that's different. This knowledge of the binding comes from some mechanism outside the namespace mechanism itself [see below]. By this reasoning, it doesn't matter how many different name-space prefixes XHTML uses because *none of them* give you a way to know that what you are processing is in fact an XHTML document (or XHTML-specific element). Rather, the binding between documents and their *governing semantic definitions* (e.g., schemas, architectures, etc.) must be provided by some other mechanism. In the absence of a generalized mechanism for doing this binding, it can only be done in documentation of the semantics. Another thing to keep in mind is that there is not necessarily a one-to-one binding of schemas to name spaces (or name spaces to schemas). The same abstract types could be mapped to many different names (short and long, English and French, domain A and domain B, enterprise 1 and enterprise 2, etc.). The same names could be mapped to *different* semantics in different contexts (the element type "myns:employee" maps to both "person" in schema A and "bold" in schema B). Assumptions about name-to-semantic bindings seem to be based on the idea that there is always an exact one-to-one binding of names to semantics. But of course this is not always (or even usually) the case. For example, I would probably want to provide different name lengths or national language bindings for the same abstract element types. Thus, I would have one overall abstract schema, "MyElementTypes", and several name spaces that provide specialized names for elements derived from the abstract types. Thus, while name spaces are mildly useful for disambiguating names, they can do nothing, by themselves, to provide a reliable or complete binding of names to semantics and therefore provide no basis for infering semantics based on name space alone. > So according to this idea, applications are built under the assumption that > 'my:foo' and 'your:foo' are completely different, with nothing whatsoever in > common. The fact they both have the name 'foo' is considered accidental. > _That's_ the whole idea. But this assumption is completely unfounded--"my:foo" and "your:foo" could in fact be mapped to exactly the same semantic--there is no way to know from the namespace usage itself and nothing in the namespace spec justifies the single mapping assumption. > Providing three different namespaces which have the same semantics would > force application writers to abandon this assumption. In XHTML, > 'traditional:p', 'strict:p' and 'frameset:p' are the same thing. This would > seriously mess XHTML applications up - put another way, it would cause > generic XML applications to fail on XHTML documents. Why would three name spaces cause more failures than one name space? Either you know what the names mean or you don't. In this case, all I have to do is know that the names in all three spaces map to the same base type. Since there's no W3C-defined mechanism for this, the authors of the XHTML spec can define an obvious one: use the base name as the base type. Once I've implemented this mapping in my code, there's no problem (unless someone uses a bogus base type name, which of course there's no way to formally validate in the namespace universe). That is, my code looks like this: def process_element(node): nsp = get_ns_name(node.TagName) gi = get_base_part(node.TagName) if nsp == "XHTML strict ns URN" | nsp == "XHTML traditional ns URN" | nsp == "XHTML frameset ns URN": apply_XHTML_semantics(node) elif nsp == "Some other namespace": apply_someother_semantics(node) else: raise UnknownNamespaceException(node) I don't see where the problem is, unless the concern is the amount of typing one has to do. [But what is looks like to me is that the really have three different *DTDs* (or rather, architectures) for the same base names. If this is in fact the case, then the XHTML authors have inappropriately confused name spaces with DTDs and they should fix that. In fact, I think there are four architectures at work here: the base architecture that defines the types and imposes the minimal structural rules, then three derived architectures, one each for "strict", "traditional", and "frameset", which impose different detailed structural rules on documents. There is no way, using W3C-defined mechanisms alone to define this system today (you can do it with SGML Architectures). This may change when the XML Schema work is finished if (and only if) it satisfies the same requirements for type classification and constraint that SGML Architectures satisfy (ideally it would satisfy more that what SGML Architectures satisfy, but I'll settle for just having the equivalent of architectures).] > For example, consider that a generic XML application must never mix up a > 'commercial:order' with an 'administrative:order', no matter what. You say "must": do you mean that in the absolute "law of nature" sense or the in the "for this example, this is the business rule that applies" sense? If the former, then the use of "must" is entirely unfounded. Maybe commercial:order and "administrative:order" are in fact specializations of a more general type "order" and there are processing contexts in which they *must* be processed in exactly the same way. Without knowing the semantics of all three types, there's no way to know what the business rules are, but in any case, the business rules cannot be inferred from the use or non-use of name spaces. On the > other hand, one would expect that a 'strict:p' element would be > interchangable with a 'traditional:p' element. For example, in an XHTML > editor, I'd expect to be able to cut one and paste it in replacement of > another. That seems like a messy issue, unless I'm missing something. Whether it is meaningful or not to replace one element type with another can only be defined at the schema or application level. The use or non-use of name spaces cannot tell you that. The mess is no different from knowing whether or not "p" and "pre" are interchangable. A name is just an identifier and in the absence of a formal, verifiable binding of names to semantics you cannot make any inferences from the names. The fact that we have a body of knowledge about what we think "p" means is a red herring. The only way to know if "strict:p" is interchangable with "traditional:p" is to read the XHTML docs, because that's the only place the semantics could possibly be defined because that's the only defined mechanism we have at the moment. So there's no mess because you *always* have to read the docs. Now, the docs can say "there is a binding between the names in namespace X and the semantic types defined in this document"--that's fine, but that is not a computer processible statement--it's a directive to programmers and document authors. But since you can't know about this statement unless you've read the docs first, if you see the namespace first and make assumptions about semantic bindings, you are living dangerously at best and may make wildly incorrect or inappropriate inferences at worst. The first thing you must do when you see a new name space is chase down *all semantic documentation* that references that name space to see what the possible semantics are. Of course, this is impossible in the general case *BECAUSE THERE'S NO BINDING FROM NAME SPACE NAMES TO SEMANTIC DEFINITIONS*. Oops. That is, unless you *already know* what semantics are bound to a given name space, you cannot find it out reliably. Here's an experiment: find *the complete list* of semantic bindings for these name spaces: xmlns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xml-data" xmlns:dt = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes" xmlns:xa = "www.extensibility.com/schemas/xdr/metaprops.xdr I want documents, formal, machine-readable specifications, etc. such that there can be no argument about what the set of valid bindings is. I believe it is impossible to do. Either the name space declaration must also bind to one or more semantic definitions, or the document must bind to sematic definitions and then bind those definitions to name spaces. With the SGML Architecture mechanism defined in ISO/IEC 10744:1997, you have the first: an architecture use declaration binds to both a semantic definition (the architecture documentation) and a name-space definition (the architectural DTD, which serves to define a vocabulary of element types and attribute names). Local names are bound to architectural names as part of the element type definition. The same local name can be bound to any number of architectures and multiple local names can be bound to a single architectural name. Name colisions from different architectures are handled by using different local names (that is, given two architectures that both define the element type "p", I might use the local names "p1" and "p2", each mapped to the appropriate architectural "p"). I mention architectures merely as an example of an existing, standardized mechanism for solving the name-to-semantic binding problem. I would except the eventual XML Schema mechanism to provide the same sort of mechanism that is at least as complete as the SGML Architecture mechanism and, hopefully, more complete and convenient to use (the SGML Architecture mechanism is limited by the fact that we had to do everything within the constraints of DTD syntax). > > If three namespaces present such an insurmountable problem, perhaps again, > > the current "implementation" of namespaces is at fault. > > The problem is not with the namespaces implementation (or definition, or > design). It is with using them to a different purpose then they were > designed for. Namespaces were designed for exactly one purpose: to lexically disambiguate names within the global name space of URN-identified things. They do that. They do nothing else. Therefore, the XHTML use of name spaces, whatever it is, must be correct. NOTE: I have no opinion on XHTML's use or non-use of multiple name spaces. It is entirely irrelevant to the usability or processibility of XHTML documents. Fundamentally, there is no difference between "strict:p" (or rather "urn:xmlnamespace:XHTML:strict:p") and "urn:xmlnamespace:XHTML:strictp". They are both unique names from which you can infer exactly the same amount of semantic information, which is to say, none. In both cases, I have to know, as an author and programmer, what the element type means and the *only way* to know that is to read the XHTML spec. Once I've read the spec, the names used in documents are irrelevant as long as the mapping is implemented correctly. At best, the use of name spaces can provide a convenient memory jog for remembering what the mapping is. Cheers, Eliot xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 15:56:30 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <180401bef1f0$64bbb1e0$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> References: <199908282345.TAA25536@earth.isni.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829095046.00a74240@mail.webgeek.com> At 09:30 AM 8/29/99 +0200, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >Providing three different namespaces which have the same semantics would >force application writers to abandon this assumption. In XHTML, >'traditional:p', 'strict:p' and 'frameset:p' are the same thing. They are? Really? Is <p> the same as <p align=center> ? Or does that transitional:p have it's own semantic of allowing presentational attributes? Ann (gee, wasn't the last argument *against* XHTML the idea that it DID bring semantics to XML?) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 16:29:22 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> At 08:35 AM 8/29/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >This is from Eliot Kimber (<eliot@isogen.com>): >Namespaces were intended to solve the problem of *name collision*, which >they do. But they explicitly do not have anything to do with binding >names to semantics and therefore you are *never* justified in infering >semantics from namespace use. This is where I think namespaces were "under-done". But I do take exception to the statement that they "explicitly" do not have anything to do with binding names to semantics. The spec does say "It is >>not a goal<< that it be directly usable for retrieval of a schema (if any exists).", >>emphasis mine<< but it doesn't say that it *must not* be used for that purpose. The spec was ambiguous enough in it's concrete application (beyond abstract grouping) that the world is indeed running forward to bind things. Indeed, there is significant disagreement even in the upper levels of W3C about whether a namespace can bind to a schema or DTD (one to one, or even one to many), so this question is hardly resolved. Whether the job of binding was something that should have been done by the namespaces spec or another spec is a bit of a side-argument. It seems clear to me that there is a need that is currently unfilled, so it's occurring outside the W3C recommendation space. >[But what is looks like to me is that the really have three different >*DTDs* (or rather, architectures) for the same base names. If this is in >fact the case, then the XHTML authors have inappropriately confused name >spaces with DTDs and they should fix that. No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed out, 'isn't soup yet') >NOTE: I have no opinion on XHTML's use or non-use of multiple name >spaces. It is entirely irrelevant to the usability or processibility of >XHTML documents. Wanted to reiterate that one. Ann (speaking only for herself, and not the W3C HTML WG) --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Sun Aug 29 16:54:48 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <199908291457.KAA01877@hesketh.net> At 07:19 PM 8/28/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. Namespace issues aside, I have to admit that I've always thought having multiple separate HTML/XHTMLs (at the same version number) was ridiculous, causing more problems than it was worth - if indeed anyone ever bothered to indicate 'which' HTML they were using or processed it differently on that basis. XHTML seemed like an opportunity to re-unify these various critters, but it doesn't seem like anyone was interested. So now we're still stuck with three flavors to complicate processing (if indeed you pay attention to the flavors) and three namespaces to make the picture even murkier. The real problem, IMHO, is having three flavors of HTML, not three namespaces, however ridiculous three namespaces may feel. I can't wait to see what the impact of these divisions is on the modularization project... (Frameset already feels like it should be a module, but never mind...) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 17:17:17 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829111323.00a7e9c0@mail.webgeek.com> At 10:26 AM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML >1.0 (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our >work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them >was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor >names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor >are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed >out, 'isn't soup yet') I should clarify myself here. Yes, the XHTML 1.0 PR does say a conforming document must validate against one of the three DTDs. I certainly recognize that schemas or other defining mechanisms may also play into our future work. Ann xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From schen at falconwing.com Sun Aug 29 17:26:36 1999 From: schen at falconwing.com (schen@falconwing.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990829105453.23545A-100000@www.falconwing.com> Speaking of namespaces, It's very confusing as to what is regarded as correct behavior by XML processors when encountering a document with namespaces. All the standard seems to do is to allow use of the same element names without conflict. As has been stated in the thread [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)], namespaces are explicitly not defined to be either schemas or DTDs, although the standard doesn't preclude it either. So two questions: 1) If an XML processor was semantically interpreting an XML document but encounters an unknown namespace, is it mandated to ignore all elements and attributes in that namespace? I thought this was the case, but after re-reading the standard I see it's not defined. If this is not standardized, can anyone say what is currently the common practice? 2) How should a validating XML parser deal with namespaces? This doesn't seem to be defined very clearly. I can see that we can include namespace declarations in the DTD external and internal subsets, so I guess that if I have a document mixing two namespaces I would have the external DTD point to the one for the "primary" namespace and then use the internal subset to override the external DTD to provide for insertion of elements and attributes using the second namespace. But this can rapidly get out of hand with mixing of even more namespaces. Is there any better mechanism for this, or are any planned? . . . Sean. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 18:16:51 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <180401bef1f0$64bbb1e0$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> References: <199908282345.TAA25536@earth.isni.net> <180401bef1f0$64bbb1e0$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14281.23666.22843.91205@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > > >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining > > >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and > > >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. > > Is this a done deal? Not until it goes to Recommendation (REC). The W3C director is now collecting comments from the Advisory Committee (AC) representatives before deciding whether to promote to REC: if you belong to a W3C member company, it would be *very* useful to ask your AC representative to send formal comments to Tim B-L. I think that it is also important, however, for other members of the XML community (like me) to send in comments, even though we don't have the same official standing as W3C members. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Sun Aug 29 18:21:41 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Element/Attribute Distinction Considered Harmful Message-ID: <199908291624.MAA04244@hesketh.net> After writing the usual 'when to use elements and when to use attributes' bit for a new book and then spending some time close up with the XLink specs, I'm really starting to wonder if we haven't painted ourselves into a corner by treating leaf elements and attributes differently. I'm not complaining about notation - in fact, I'm quite fond of attributes as an abbreviated form that makes clearer (at times) that given information is perhaps annotation for another component rather than a component of its own. My concerns arise more with schema development and attribute usage in situations like XLink. By using tools that require a given piece of information to appear as an attribute, we gain the use of one set of tools (defaulting and somewhat better restraints) at the cost of another set of tools (the ability to annotate that information itself, or to plain old store multiple levels of information, plus the ever-lingering question of whether attribute sequence matters.) For a simple example, I'll use the HTML 4.0 IMG element and three of its attributes: SRC, LONGDESC, and USEMAP. All three of them take URIs for values: <!ATTLIST IMG SRC CDATA #REQUIRED LONGDESC CDATA #IMPLIED USEMAP CDATA #IMPLIED> (In the HTML 4.01 spec, they use %uri; for the content model, which resolves to CDATA. They also use lower case.) All three of these attributes are locators - they carry URIs that can be used to retrieve additional information about the image. SRC is the 'primary' attribute, without which there isn't an image, while LONGDESC provides a link to extra description of the image and USEMAP points to an image map resolver, itself another set of links. Because XLink follows the current expectations of schemas, and because XLink relies on the element/attribute distinction for its understanding of which containers hold link-relevant information, XLink cannot support this use case directly. _If_ IMG stored SRC, LONGDESC, and USEMAP as child elements, XLink could support this easily. However, XLink provides no support for 'extended links' where all the linking information is presented as attributes rather than child elements. In the current usage of XML and schemas, it has no formal vocabulary available to it that lets it handle this case. Another case that's generated some (reasonably violent) comment is the use of the style attribute in HTML for use with CSS. In HTML, you can do inline styling by attaching a style attribute to the element to be styled. That single attribute may hold hundreds of different style properties, using a commonly understood convention. For example, <P style="font-size:18pt; font-weight:bold; color:42426F; font-family:sans-serif">This is my crazy paragraph!</P> The style attribute here stores four name-value pairs, violating quite thoroughly the principle that an attribute represents a single value and irritating some folks enormously. The same information could have been represented as: <P> <style font-size="18pt" font-weight="bold" color="42426F" font-family="sans-serif" />This is my crazy paragraph!</P> or even: <P> <style> <font-size>18pt</font-size> <font-weight>bold</font-weight> <color>42426F</color> <font-family>sans-serif</font-family> </style> This is my crazy paragraph!</P> You get the idea... It seems like child elements and attributes are both basically name-value pairs. In the case of child elements, we treat order as important, while in the case of attributes it's considered unclear. Apart from being the status quo, does this approach really make sense? Am I the only one wondering if maybe it's time to start breaking down this distinction - at least within schemas - to give XML some of the flexibility the current system denies? (RDF certainly took that approach, but wrapped it in lots of alien - to XML - concepts that I think obscured its value.) It's taken me a long time to reach these conclusions - until recently, I really liked that status quo, though without much good cause. I'd love to hear people's opinions on this subject, if indeed anyone else considers it worth addressing. It has immediate impact on developments like schemas, as well as significant implications for XLink and potentially CSS style application. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 18:25:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> Eliot Kimber writes: > Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: > > Providing three different namespaces which have the same > > semantics would force application writers to abandon this > > assumption. In XHTML, 'traditional:p', 'strict:p' and > > 'frameset:p' are the same thing. This would seriously mess XHTML > > applications up - put another way, it would cause generic XML > > applications to fail on XHTML documents. > > Why would three name spaces cause more failures than one name space? > Either you know what the names mean or you don't. Because human beings write computer programs: 1. It is necessary to perform three tests rather than one to identify a name from XHTML: that means three separate patterns in XSL (for example), three separate contexts in a context-sensitive search engine, three separate XML queries, three separate XPointers, etc. etc. All of this means three times the opportunity for bugs and interoperability problems (and yet more accusations that the W3C cannot create specs that work together). 2. If the intention of XHTML is to continue to create new Namespaces for future versions of XHTML, you run into a serious deployment problem where old software will not work properly with new documents. If you don't believe that versioning is a problem on the Web, then look at the lack of even Java 1.1 applets for general use (because Netscape 3.0 doesn't have a Java 1.1 VM). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 18:52:38 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990829105453.23545A-100000@www.falconwing.com> References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990829105453.23545A-100000@www.falconwing.com> Message-ID: <14281.25920.300284.631744@localhost.localdomain> schen@falconwing.com writes: > 1) If an XML processor was semantically interpreting an XML document but > encounters an unknown namespace, is it mandated to ignore all elements and > attributes in that namespace? I thought this was the case, but after > re-reading the standard I see it's not defined. If this is not > standardized, can anyone say what is currently the common practice? I'd expect that it is the responsibility of the Namespace designer to specify this: there is no single set of rules that will work for all situations. > 2) How should a validating XML parser deal with namespaces? The validating parser must validate against the DTD -- the validation (at least, as defined by XML 1.0) doesn't concern Namespaces. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun Aug 29 19:01:09 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:25 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829100332.00cd1310@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 07:19 PM 8/28/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed >Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. Just wanted to place on the record the fact that I agree totally with David. Since an HTML <p> or <h2> or <br> has the same import for 99.99999% of applications that care about this tag vocabulary at all (yes, Ann, even if it says align='center'), it's just nuts to make them pretend that HTML is three different languages. Which implies that every futher tiny little enhancement to HTML, from now to the end of time, is going to get its own namespace. Which means that I, as a programmer, can *NEVER EVER EVER* write code that says if (elementType() == 'a' and elementNamespace() == 'HTML') doHTMLHyperlink() and hope to have it continue working in the face of future versions of HTML - which, we can be reasonably sure, will continue to have <A> elements with relatively comparable meaning to those of today. This is just wrong. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 19:19:47 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990829100332.00cd1310@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829131521.00a86b00@mail.webgeek.com> At 10:03 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > it's just nuts to make them pretend that HTML >is three different languages. Did we have this argument when HTML 4.0 went to PR? >Which implies that every futher tiny little >enhancement to HTML, from now to the end of time, is going to get its own >namespace. I don't think that implication is supported by the following drafts that are publicly available. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 19:19:37 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 08:35 AM 8/29/99 -0400, Eliot Kimber wrote: > > >Namespaces were intended to solve the problem of *name collision*, which > >they do. But they explicitly do not have anything to do with binding > >names to semantics and therefore you are *never* justified in infering > >semantics from namespace use. > > This is where I think namespaces were "under-done". But I do take exception > to the statement that they "explicitly" do not have anything to do with > binding names to semantics. > > The spec does say "It is >>not a goal<< that it be > directly usable for retrieval of a schema (if any exists).", > > >>emphasis mine<< > > but it doesn't say that it *must not* be used for that purpose. My point is that *they are not capable of being used for that purpose*. That is, there is no mechanism by which, using only facilities of XML or the Namespace recommendation, you can state any explicit binding between any given namespace (or name in a name space) and any definition(s) of the semantics to which that name is bound *in the XML document that uses the name space*. Therefore, given only a namespace declaration, you can *never* infer any semantic binding with certainty. As I said in my post, the reverse is possible: a semantic definition (e.g., XLink, RDF, XHTML) can state a binding as part of its specification (which is exactly what the XLink spec does), but you have know about that statement before you start processing a document. To do that, you have to read the spec. Once you read the spec, the use or non-use of name spaces is irrelevant for the purpose of recognizing element types defined in a given spec--there are any number of ways names can be disambiguated or bound to name spaces. The namespace mechanism is only one, and it's a particularly weak one at that. [I also note that DOCTYPE declarations have the same problem: there is no defined way to map a set of declarations to the definitions of their semantics. A DTD declaration set merely defines a set of names and some (but not all possible) syntactic constraints on the use of those names. A DTD declaration set does not define semantics any more than a regular expression defines the semantics of the string it is matching. Any use of external DTD subset external identifiers for this purpose is misguided because it has no enforcable authority. Consider this document: <!DOCTYPE mybook PUBLIC "-//Hal and O'Reilly//DTD Docbook//EN" [ <!ELEMENT mybook EMPTY > ]> <mybook/> What is the semantic relationship of this document to the semantics defined by the DocBook documentation? Impossible to tell from the information provided. The fact that the external DTD subset includes all the Docbook DTD declarations is irrelevant--because the document element is not from that set, there's not even a syntactic binding to the Docbook rules. That is, an external DTD subset external ID has exactly the same value for infering semantics that a namespace identifier does, that is, none.] Thus, for purposes of binding names to semantics, name spaces add no significant value because the binding of any namespace to a given set of semantics is just a convention you have to know: there's no way for a machine to recognize or validate it. As a convention, it's useful enough--the Web has taught us that you can get a lot of mileage out of established conventions, but conventions are no substitute for solid, explicit, machine-understandable bindings, and the name space spec *does not give us any*. Whether it should have or not is another issue. My personal feeling is that without such a binding, namespaces are at best of marginal value and at worst dangerous because they lead to inappropriate or incorrect assumptions about things. XML *already provides* a mechanism for defining vocabularies of names: DTD-syntax DTDs (and, as explained above, that's *all* they do). It would have been trivial for the namespace spec to define that as the standard mechanism for defining vocabularies (while allowing the use of other, non-standard mechanisms). It would have been trivial to add a "schema binding" attribute to the name-space declaration (it doesn't matter what the form of the schema definition is, because at the end of the day it's only the prose that really matters anyway). What would have been harder would have been a per-element binding or a one-to-many element-to-namespace/schema binding. That probably would have delayed the spec indefinitely. I presume the XML schema mechanism will also provide a standardized syntax for defining vocabularies and semantics (or at least explicitly binding names to semantic definitions, whatever form they may take). When it does, that mechanism can be used in addition to or in place of DTD-syntax DTDs. The spec > was ambiguous enough in it's concrete application (beyond abstract > grouping) that the world is indeed running forward to bind things. Indeed, > there is significant disagreement even in the upper levels of W3C about > whether a namespace can bind to a schema or DTD (one to one, or even one to > many), so this question is hardly resolved. What's to disagree about? There's no mechanism there. Which is not to say that there couldn't be one, just that there isn't one now. Whether the job of binding was > something that should have been done by the namespaces spec or another spec > is a bit of a side-argument. It seems clear to me that there is a need that > is currently unfilled, so it's occurring outside the W3C recommendation space. Exactly my point: without this binding, you're building a house of cards. > >[But what is looks like to me is that the really have three different > >*DTDs* (or rather, architectures) for the same base names. If this is in > >fact the case, then the XHTML authors have inappropriately confused name > >spaces with DTDs and they should fix that. > > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our > work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed out, > 'isn't soup yet') But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, a namespace cannot be the *definition* of what these three flavors are. Therefore, those definitions must exist somewhere. Therefore, there must be document type *definitions* (not *declarations*) that define these flavors, separate from the names of the name spaces that map to those definitions. The syntactic form of the document type definition is irrelevant--all should be provided as a convenience to users. You can't require the use of any particular mechanism in any case (and you can't require the non-use of any mechanism either--support for DTD-syntax DTDs is not an optional feature of XML (validation against those declarations is)). That is, if XHTML (or any semantic spec) defines name spaces, it must also define what those name spaces map to. The name space is not the thing. Therefore there must be a thing. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 19:22:39 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors References: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990829105453.23545A-100000@www.falconwing.com> Message-ID: <37C91D8E.55B25EF9@isogen.com> schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > Speaking of namespaces, > > It's very confusing as to what is regarded as correct behavior by XML > processors when encountering a document with namespaces. > All the standard seems to do is to allow use of the same element names > without conflict. No--it allows you to construct long, guaranteed unique element type names where part of the name (the base bit) is obviously syntactically separated from the first bit that guarantees uniqueness. But the element type name is the full-qualified name. Therefore, there is no general sense in which to names that happen to have the same base part are the "same", any more than two machines named "spock" from different IP domains are the "same". They are just different names. > So two questions: > > 1) If an XML processor was semantically interpreting an XML document but > encounters an unknown namespace, is it mandated to ignore all elements and > attributes in that namespace? I thought this was the case, but after > re-reading the standard I see it's not defined. If this is not > standardized, can anyone say what is currently the common practice? No processing can or should be mandidated by any > 2) How should a validating XML parser deal with namespaces? This doesn't > seem to be defined very clearly. I can see that we can include namespace > declarations in the DTD external and internal subsets, so I guess that if > I have a document mixing two namespaces I would have the external DTD > point to the one for the "primary" namespace and then use the internal > subset to override the external DTD to provide for insertion of elements > and attributes using the second namespace. But this can rapidly get out > of hand with mixing of even more namespaces. Is there any better > mechanism for this, or are any planned? You create a set of declarations where the namespace *prefixes* are part of the element type declarations. That's the only way to do it because XML 1.0 validation is defined purely in terms of names as declared in element type and attribute list declarations. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 19:30:56 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> At 06:41 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 > > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our > > work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them > > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor > > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor > > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed out, > > 'isn't soup yet') > >But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, a namespace cannot >be the *definition* of what these three flavors are. I didn't say they did define anything. I said they each have a namespace. Period. They each have a DTD. Period. They happen to share a string for a portion of their titles. That does not say "the namespace defines the flavors". Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 19:43:34 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C92285.66EB978F@isogen.com> David Megginson wrote: > > Eliot Kimber writes: > > > Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: > > > > Providing three different namespaces which have the same > > > semantics would force application writers to abandon this > > > assumption. In XHTML, 'traditional:p', 'strict:p' and > > > 'frameset:p' are the same thing. This would seriously mess XHTML > > > applications up - put another way, it would cause generic XML > > > applications to fail on XHTML documents. > > > > Why would three name spaces cause more failures than one name space? > > Either you know what the names mean or you don't. > > Because human beings write computer programs: > > 1. It is necessary to perform three tests rather than one to identify > a name from XHTML: that means three separate patterns in XSL (for > example), three separate contexts in a context-sensitive search > engine, three separate XML queries, three separate XPointers, > etc. etc. I think that points up a general failure with the architecture: what you really want to do is match things based on their base semantic binding, not on their local name. Namespaces don't (and can't) do that. If there was an explicit ns-to-semantic-definition binding, it wouldn't be a problem, because you could establish clear and machine-understandable type hierarchies and process in terms of any point in the hierarchy. But that requires a lot of machinery, which is probably beyond the W3C to define at this point in time. Or maybe XHTML should wait until the schema spec is done, when presumably such a mechanism will be provided (and if Schemas don't provide it, we've got a real problem). It also points up a problem with simple-minded processors that make assumptions about local names that are not justified. A request like this, while probably reasonable on practical grounds (which I don't dispute) cannot be justified on practical grounds alone--there are clearly important architectural issues that this problem is exposing that need to be resolved. Once those architectural problems are resolved, then the appropriate practical solution should be obvious (or at least easily developed). > All of this means three times the opportunity for bugs and > interoperability problems (and yet more accusations that the W3C > cannot create specs that work together). I think it's a little too late for the last one. > 2. If the intention of XHTML is to continue to create new Namespaces > for future versions of XHTML, you run into a serious deployment > problem where old software will not work properly with new > documents. If you don't believe that versioning is a problem on > the Web, then look at the lack of even Java 1.1 applets for general > use (because Netscape 3.0 doesn't have a Java 1.1 VM). I'm sure that versioning is a big problem. And I'm sure that whether you use one ns per version or three doesn't really matter: the nature and severity of the problem are the same. Or rather: if you can manage one ns/version you can manage three and if you can't manage three, you probably can't manage one. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 19:44:59 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> Message-ID: <14281.28491.597619.960709@localhost.localdomain> W. Eliot Kimber writes: > As I said in my post, the reverse is possible: a semantic definition > (e.g., XLink, RDF, XHTML) can state a binding as part of its > specification (which is exactly what the XLink spec does), but you have > know about that statement before you start processing a document. To do > that, you have to read the spec. Once you read the spec, the use or > non-use of name spaces is irrelevant for the purpose of recognizing > element types defined in a given spec--there are any number of ways > names can be disambiguated or bound to name spaces. The namespace > mechanism is only one, and it's a particularly weak one at that. The first part of the statement is a truism -- with few (if any) exceptions, there are always different ways any standard could be implemented. IP could have been designed dozens of different ways, but that does not make IP irrelevant. In fact, SGML itself (and XML 1.0) define only names scoped to a specific document type, so there are two types of a-priori knowledge necessary to recognize names: 1. You have to know (somehow) what the document type is (as Eliot has often pointed out, the DOCTYPE declaration doesn't help); and 2. You have to know (somehow) what the element or attribute name means. There have been two significant attempts to remove the first of these problems, so that arbitrary names can be recognized in any document: Architectural Forms and Namespaces. To establish names that can be recognized outside of document types, it is necessary to make them globally unique: Architectural Forms does so by associating each name with a formal public identifier, while Namespaces does so by associating each name with a URI. Neither Architectural Forms nor Namespaces can offer a solution to #2 -- after all, the range of possible meanings is potentially infinite. You can choose an arbitrary subset of possible meanings, either generic (like HyTime) or specific (like HTML), but a human still has to have read the spec and design software to do something useful. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sun Aug 29 19:49:05 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <078801bef247$7fc613c0$1618ccce@pebbles> As the developer of web content management software, and the webmaster for over a dozen active websites, here's what I think XHTML should be. 1. A tightening up of HTML. Eliminate the anomalies, like <li>, <img>, <p> that in HTML can appear without balancing </li>, </img>, </p> tags. XHTML pages should be well-formed XML, with mods to HTML to bring it into well-formedness. That's it. Nothing more. Anything more than that would be totally unmanageable for my company. (We're already in fire-fighting mode virtually 100 percent of the time.) Dave ----- Original Message ----- From: Ann Navarro <ann@webgeek.com> To: W. Eliot Kimber <eliot@isogen.com>; xml-dev <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:27 AM Subject: Re: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] > At 06:41 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > > > > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 > > > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our > > > work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them > > > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor > > > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor > > > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed out, > > > 'isn't soup yet') > > > >But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, a namespace cannot > >be the *definition* of what these three flavors are. > > > I didn't say they did define anything. I said they each have a namespace. > Period. They each have a DTD. Period. > > They happen to share a string for a portion of their titles. > > That does not say "the namespace defines the flavors". > > Ann > > > > > > > > > --- > Ann Navarro > Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials > Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html > Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com > Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 20:03:16 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <078801bef247$7fc613c0$1618ccce@pebbles> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829135959.0094d440@mail.webgeek.com> At 10:54 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: >As the developer of web content management software, and the webmaster for >over a dozen active websites, here's what I think XHTML should be. > >1. A tightening up of HTML. Eliminate the anomalies, like <li>, <img>, <p> >that in HTML can appear without balancing </li>, </img>, </p> tags. XHTML >pages should be well-formed XML, with mods to HTML to bring it into >well-formedness. > >That's it. Nothing more And that's exactly the intention of XHTML 1.0. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Aug 29 20:03:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > As a developer, I believe that this is a seriously broken idea: we > need a single HTML Namespace URI so that we can identify and process > HTML markup embedded in other document types; if we have to check > three or more qualified names just to figure out that we have an HTML > <p> element (and write three separate patterns in XSL, etc.) then > we're in serious trouble. I think that if the three different namespaces happen be interchangable for the purposes of YOUR process then it is YOUR responsibility to say so. This implies that XSLT, Namespace-filters for SAX, DOM etc.need extensions for stating that two namespaces are interchangable for a given task. Yes, there should also be a way for a namespace creator to globally state that a namespace is a subset of another namespace but the lack of such a declaration cannot be blamed on the XHTML people. They are trying to do the right thing. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 20:07:56 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37C92813.8D41048C@isogen.com> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 06:41 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > > > > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 > > > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our > > > work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them > > > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor > > > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor > > > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed out, > > > 'isn't soup yet') > > > >But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, a namespace cannot > >be the *definition* of what these three flavors are. > > I didn't say they did define anything. I said they each have a namespace. > Period. They each have a DTD. Period. Ah, my mistake--you're right, the two are separate (and separable). But I think it's more accurate to say: XHTML defines three distinct (but related) document types, each with its own DTD declarations, etc. Each of these document types *is considered to be* the definition of the corresponding name spaces x, y, and z. That is, it's not meaningful to say that a DTD *has* a name space, because a name space isn't something that a DTD can have. It is only meaningful to say that a DTD defines some or all of the vocabulary for which a name space name is the name (remembering that as defined in the name space recommendation, a name space is merely a name for a notional name space--the actual vocabulary (that is, the set of names in the name space) has no defined formal definition from the point of view of the name space spec). But I'm splitting hairs in order to make the point that name spaces, by themselves, are worthless. If the XHTML spec formally defines document types and defines the intended binding between names in a given name space and the types defined, that's fine, because at least I will be justified in building that binding into my programs. But, having said that, I think that David's point is now well taken: there is no need to conflate the *syntactic* distinctions that these three flavors of XHTML make with the *semantic* distinctions they make. That is, an HTML paragraph is an HTML paragraph whether its content is restricted or unrestricted. That's why I said there are *four* definitions, not three: one for the base semantic types and three for the syntactic (and possibly semantic) specializations. By using a single name space name for all three (or four) variants, you let cheap processors make inferences about meaning from names with a minimum of extra effort. It's still a dangerous game, but at least the convenience of playing it has been improved. Note that you still have to declare in your document which variant you're using, but that could be distinct from the base semantic binding. That is, you could have one name space for all flavors of XHTML and use some other mechanism for indicating which semantic flavor you want (e.g., a normative external DTD setup, an architecture use declaration, a reserved attribute, etc.). The use of name spaces is a *convenience* and the fact that name spaces have no defined semantic implications means, in part, that there is no necessary correlation between them. Thus, XHTML could as easily have one name space as three--it wouldn't change the base problem of knowing which semantic (and syntactic) variant you have. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 20:09:22 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C92285.66EB978F@isogen.com> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C92285.66EB978F@isogen.com> Message-ID: <14281.29665.575449.161911@localhost.localdomain> W. Eliot Kimber writes: > > 1. It is necessary to perform three tests rather than one to identify > > a name from XHTML: that means three separate patterns in XSL (for > > example), three separate contexts in a context-sensitive search > > engine, three separate XML queries, three separate XPointers, > > etc. etc. > > I think that points up a general failure with the architecture: > what you really want to do is match things based on their base > semantic binding, not on their local name. Namespaces don't (and > can't) do that. If there was an explicit ns-to-semantic-definition > binding, it wouldn't be a problem, because you could establish > clear and machine-understandable type hierarchies and process in > terms of any point in the hierarchy. > > But that requires a lot of machinery, which is probably beyond the > W3C to define at this point in time. The definition is not the problem -- the implementation and deployment is. Any standard that requires the processing of a large schema to make sense of a small XML document will probably fail. XML Namespaces cannot work the same way as classes and interfaces in a closed system -- all of the useful information (or at least enough of it for processing) *has* to be in the document instance itself, not in a separate schema that might reference another schema that might reference another schema, etc. That means that a Namespace URI is a lot like a domain name -- a single, well-known public identity for a collection of markup definitions -- and not very much like a class. > It also points up a problem with simple-minded processors that make > assumptions about local names that are not justified. Simple wins, complex loses. I remember avidly reading the literature about the complex experimental hypertext systems of the late '80s and early '90s, but they lost and HTML won. Now, maybe HTML was a little too far on the stupid side, but not so far that it couldn't mop the floor with the competition. SAX 1.0 is widely implemented because it is simple: everyone has one or two more things they'd like to see in SAX, but since everyone's one or two more things are different, SAX would have become quite complex if it had tried to accomodate all of them, and probably no one would have implemented it. > A request like this, while probably reasonable on practical grounds > (which I don't dispute) cannot be justified on practical grounds > alone--there are clearly important architectural issues that this > problem is exposing that need to be resolved. Once those architectural > problems are resolved, then the appropriate practical solution should be > obvious (or at least easily developed). Architecture in a closed system (like a single company or supply-chain) can evolve top-down, just as a single company can reasonably hope formulate and follow a business plan. Architecture in an open system (like the Web) has to evolve bottom up, just as successful economies tend to develop despite government intervention rather than because of it. In other words, when you move to the macro level, all of the rules change. > > All of this means three times the opportunity for bugs and > > interoperability problems (and yet more accusations that the W3C > > cannot create specs that work together). > > I think it's a little too late for the last one. At least we can keep trying. > I'm sure that versioning is a big problem. And I'm sure that whether you > use one ns per version or three doesn't really matter: the nature and > severity of the problem are the same. Or rather: if you can manage one > ns/version you can manage three and if you can't manage three, you > probably can't manage one. Bingo. I believe that there should be just one XHTML Namespace as long as possible, just as a company should stick with the same domain name. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Aug 29 20:20:10 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > 2. If the intention of XHTML is to continue to create new Namespaces > for future versions of XHTML, you run into a serious deployment > problem where old software will not work properly with new > documents. How can you know, in 1999, whether Internet Explorer 5.0 will work with HTML 6 documents? You cannot. If robust behavior is your primary goal then you must presume not. It is extremely suspect that an HTML 2.0 browser could just display an applet-bearing page without the applet and presume that that's "good enough." And EVEN IF that assumption is usually valid in the world of human-read documents there is no way you can build an ecommerce infrastructure on the hope that future versions will magically degrade nicely. We need a real graceful degradation strategy. > If you don't believe that versioning is a problem on > the Web, then look at the lack of even Java 1.1 applets for general > use (because Netscape 3.0 doesn't have a Java 1.1 VM). What would you have JavaSoft do? Pretend that Java 1.1 programs are really Java 1.0 programs so that the crash occurs deep in the JVM instead of at the point that the problem is first detected? "Hmmm. It's looking for a method I don't have. I'll just return NULL and hope it works." No version 1.x software can magically handle version 2.x data without a well-defined graceful degradation mechanism. You are asking the XHTML people to pretend that they have that mechanism when they do not. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 20:27:12 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> <14281.28491.597619.960709@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C92C0C.7C3F0270@isogen.com> David Megginson wrote: > > W. Eliot Kimber writes: > > > As I said in my post, the reverse is possible: a semantic definition > > (e.g., XLink, RDF, XHTML) can state a binding as part of its > > specification (which is exactly what the XLink spec does), but you have > > know about that statement before you start processing a document. To do > > that, you have to read the spec. Once you read the spec, the use or > > non-use of name spaces is irrelevant for the purpose of recognizing > > element types defined in a given spec--there are any number of ways > > names can be disambiguated or bound to name spaces. The namespace > > mechanism is only one, and it's a particularly weak one at that. > > The first part of the statement is a truism -- with few (if any) > exceptions, there are always different ways any standard could be > implemented. IP could have been designed dozens of different ways, > but that does not make IP irrelevant. My point is that namespaces, by themselves, don't help (or hurt) in the recognition of names that you know--thus they are irrelevant to the problem of name recognition. Once you've read a particular spec, you know how that spec defines names that you can recognize. Given the name of a name space, it is impossible to know in the general case what semantic definitions, if any, might relate themselves to that name space. So you always have to have come across the semantic spec first (or be lucky in your search of available documents). If the spec you have (or find) uses namespaces, fine, now you know, but if it doesn't, you know that too. Thus, there's nothing magical about namespaces with respect the problem of name recognition. And there are a lot of things that are suboptimal about name spaces (such as no way to map a single element to names in multiple spaces). > In fact, SGML itself (and XML 1.0) define only names scoped to a > specific document type, so there are two types of a-priori knowledge > necessary to recognize names: > > 1. You have to know (somehow) what the document type is (as Eliot has > often pointed out, the DOCTYPE declaration doesn't help); and > > 2. You have to know (somehow) what the element or attribute name > means. > > There have been two significant attempts to remove the first of these > problems, so that arbitrary names can be recognized in any document: > Architectural Forms and Namespaces. To establish names that can be > recognized outside of document types, it is necessary to make them > globally unique: Architectural Forms does so by associating each name > with a formal public identifier, while Namespaces does so by > associating each name with a URI. > > Neither Architectural Forms nor Namespaces can offer a solution to #2 > -- after all, the range of possible meanings is potentially infinite. Not quite true--the key difference between architectures and name spaces is that the architecture mechanism provides three things that the namespace mechanism does not, including as much of the solution #2 as you can get in this context: 1. A formal and standardized mechanism for defining the vocabulary of names used in an architecture (architectural DTDs defined using DTD declarations as standardized in ISO 8879 and XML 1.0 Rec) 2. A formal and standardized mechanism for binding a document to the *semantic definition* of the architecture. That is, the external identifier for the architecture *by definition* points to the documentation of the semantics for that architecture. That's the best that *anyone* can do. Once you get to the documentation, it's up to you to interpret it. The documentation can include both machine-readable formalisms (e.g., schemas of some sort) and human-understandable prose. But note what this means: having come across an architecture use declaration, I can get to the definition of the architecture if I can resolve the external identifier. Point of fact: The external identifier for an architecture need not be a public identifier. It can be any form of external identifier, including a URL. In fact, it probably should *always be* a URL so you have some hope of finding the damn thing. 3. A formal and standardized mechanism for defining type hierarchies of element types (architectures derived from architectures). Thus, while name spaces and architectures are both fundamentally about names, the namespace mechanism provides only for the uniquification of names, while the architecture mechanism provides for that as well as the other things you need. Note that there is no necessary conflict between name spaces and architectures--they use different syntactic mechanisms and could be used together, either synergisticaly or not. There is also no conflict between architectures and XML Schemas--I would expect XML schemas to be a core part of the definition of the semantics of architectures and I would expect XML schemas to provide better mechanisms for what architecture *syntax* does today. But it is not fair to say that name spaces and architectures solve *exactly* the same problem. The problem that name spaces solve is a proper subset of the problems that architectures solve. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 20:31:07 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990829135959.0094d440@mail.webgeek.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> <078801bef247$7fc613c0$1618ccce@pebbles> <4.2.0.58.19990829135959.0094d440@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14281.30842.794709.529543@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > At 10:54 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: > >As the developer of web content management software, and the webmaster for > >over a dozen active websites, here's what I think XHTML should be. > > > >1. A tightening up of HTML. Eliminate the anomalies, like <li>, <img>, <p> > >that in HTML can appear without balancing </li>, </img>, </p> tags. XHTML > >pages should be well-formed XML, with mods to HTML to bring it into > >well-formedness. > > > >That's it. Nothing more > > > And that's exactly the intention of XHTML 1.0. There's a little more -- XHTML 1.0 also *requires* the use of one of the three XHTML Namespaces and of a DOCTYPE declaration, and hints at a future system of modules. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 20:41:26 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > David Megginson wrote: > > > > As a developer, I believe that this is a seriously broken idea: > > we need a single HTML Namespace URI so that we can identify and > > process HTML markup embedded in other document types; if we have > > to check three or more qualified names just to figure out that we > > have an HTML <p> element (and write three separate patterns in > > XSL, etc.) then we're in serious trouble. > > I think that if the three different namespaces happen be > interchangable for the purposes of YOUR process then it is YOUR > responsibility to say so. That violates the basic rule of isolating complexity: if 99.9% of processes will need to treat the three XHTML Namespaces as equivalent (and I think that Tim's throw-away number was, if anything, a gross underestimate -- I cannot imagine even 1 in 1000 processes caring about the difference between transitional and strict), then it is unjustifiable to force each process to manage the equivalences itself. Do we really want to force everyone who does anything with HTML to create the following? 1. Three separate XML queries to find an HTML <cite> element. 2. Three separate XSL patterns to format an HTML paragraph. 3. Three separate search patterns to the word "Prescod" in an <em> element. 4. Three separate JavaScript if statements to locate an HTML <form>. Even if there is, some day, a top-level equivalence-mapping feature, people would still be forced to define the top-level mappings. It's all well blithely to state that dealing with this problem is the application's responsibility, but there needs to be a *very* strong justification for forcing this amount of complexity on the entire Web community, and I haven't heard it. > They are trying to do the right thing. The sad part is that they did do the right thing in the last public Working Draft, and then backpedalled suddenly. You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL (and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly stand alone. Most specs fail anyway, complex or not (XML's success is the exception rather than the rule), but it would be nice to give XHTML at least a fighting chance. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 20:45:13 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C92285.66EB978F@isogen.com> <14281.29665.575449.161911@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C9318C.BBA1D8F1@isogen.com> David Megginson wrote: > > But that requires a lot of machinery, which is probably beyond the > > W3C to define at this point in time. > > The definition is not the problem -- the implementation and deployment > is. Any standard that requires the processing of a large schema to > make sense of a small XML document will probably fail. I'm talking about definitional machinery, not processing machinery. All I really want is an explicit names-space-to-schema binding. That is, something stated *in the document* that I can rely on as the basis for mapping element instances to semantics. I don't have to *process* the schema in order to do that (any more than I have to validate a document in order to process it). But I do have to have a reliable *name* for semantic definition, and the name-space name *IS NOT IT*. And pretending that it is is dangerous at best. > XML Namespaces cannot work the same way as classes and interfaces in a > closed system -- all of the useful information (or at least enough of > it for processing) *has* to be in the document instance itself, not in > a separate schema that might reference another schema that might > reference another schema, etc. That means that a Namespace URI is a > lot like a domain name -- a single, well-known public identity for a > collection of markup definitions -- and not very much like a class. No--it should be that, but it's not, because nothing the namespace spec provides for the binding, therefore, there is no way to put the binding in the document. How hard is this to understand? > > It also points up a problem with simple-minded processors that make > > assumptions about local names that are not justified. > > Simple wins, complex loses. I remember avidly reading the literature > about the complex experimental hypertext systems of the late '80s and > early '90s, but they lost and HTML won. Now, maybe HTML was a little > too far on the stupid side, but not so far that it couldn't mop the > floor with the competition. Yeah, but we're beyond the level of simple win that HTML was able to give us. The best we can do is build some conventions that make the *default* use of a more complex mechanism simple. That's what we tried very hard to do with HyTime and anchitectures. But you have to have all the formal definitional mechanisms behind it or its just a set of conventions, not a reliable, extensible, formal system. You can't have it both ways. For example, the namespace mechanism could have been defined such that *by default* the semantic name was derivable in some way from the namespace name or visa versa. But without a formal definition of even how to refer to semantic definitions, there's no framework within which to even define this default behavior (default relative to what?). Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 20:47:10 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <37C92813.8D41048C@isogen.com> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829143548.00a77d40@mail.webgeek.com> At 07:31 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: >XHTML defines three distinct (but related) document types, each with its >own DTD declarations, etc. Each of these document types *is considered >to be* the definition of the corresponding name spaces x, y, and z. No, >That is, it's not meaningful to say that a DTD *has* a name space, >because a name space isn't something that a DTD can have. Again, I've not said that a DTD *has a name space*. I'm saying: There are three flavors of XHTML 1.0 (that distinction of 1.0 vs 'XHTML' is important). Each has a namespace. Each has a DTD. Nothing more, nothing less. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 20:50:05 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > How can you know, in 1999, whether Internet Explorer 5.0 will work with > HTML 6 documents? You cannot. If robust behavior is your primary goal > then you must presume not. I agree that there needs to be some sort of versioning available -- it could be an html:version attribute (the best solution, I think), or perhaps just the version of the DTD used in the DOCTYPE declaration (much messier). I think that Namespaces are the wrong tool to use for versioning, because using them that way makes easy, typical jobs much harder, and that's just bad design. > > If you don't believe that versioning is a problem on > > the Web, then look at the lack of even Java 1.1 applets for general > > use (because Netscape 3.0 doesn't have a Java 1.1 VM). > > What would you have JavaSoft do? Pretend that Java 1.1 programs are > really Java 1.0 programs so that the crash occurs deep in the JVM > instead of at the point that the problem is first detected? "Hmmm. It's > looking for a method I don't have. I'll just return NULL and hope it > works." Fortunately, XML isn't source code (or compiled code), so we don't have the same problem -- I was using that example only to demonstrate that once there's software deployed that recognizes a certain set of XHTML Namespaces (preferably a set with one member), it will be very difficult to introduce any new Namespaces. > No version 1.x software can magically handle version 2.x data without a > well-defined graceful degradation mechanism. You are asking the XHTML > people to pretend that they have that mechanism when they do not. They already have the mechanism: if you see an unknown attribute, ignore it; if you see an unknown element, ignore its start and end tags and process the content. It's not elegant, but it's workable. That said, as I mentioned above, I agree that some sort of versioning is needed -- the three-Namespace approach just seems equivalent to amputating my leg to get rid of a wart. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 20:54:22 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C9318C.BBA1D8F1@isogen.com> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C92285.66EB978F@isogen.com> <14281.29665.575449.161911@localhost.localdomain> <37C9318C.BBA1D8F1@isogen.com> Message-ID: <14281.33138.62542.618266@localhost.localdomain> W. Eliot Kimber writes: > I'm talking about definitional machinery, not processing machinery. All > I really want is an explicit names-space-to-schema binding. That is, > something stated *in the document* that I can rely on as the basis for > mapping element instances to semantics. I don't have to *process* the > schema in order to do that (any more than I have to validate a document > in order to process it). But I do have to have a reliable *name* for > semantic definition, and the name-space name *IS NOT IT*. And pretending > that it is is dangerous at best. We agree violently on this point. > > XML Namespaces cannot work the same way as classes and interfaces in a > > closed system -- all of the useful information (or at least enough of > > it for processing) *has* to be in the document instance itself, not in > > a separate schema that might reference another schema that might > > reference another schema, etc. That means that a Namespace URI is a > > lot like a domain name -- a single, well-known public identity for a > > collection of markup definitions -- and not very much like a class. > > No--it should be that, but it's not, because nothing the namespace spec > provides for the binding, therefore, there is no way to put the binding > in the document. How hard is this to understand? The Name can still be known a priori. For example, DNS resolution can associate the name "www.amazon.com" with the IP address 208.216.182.15, but that's hardly the value of the name -- the domain name itself is a well-known brand and has many other, less formal associations. To prove this point, think of how much you'd have to offer them to sell you the domain name, even if you let them keep the IP address. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 20:56:47 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:26 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <14281.30842.794709.529543@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829135959.0094d440@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> <078801bef247$7fc613c0$1618ccce@pebbles> <4.2.0.58.19990829135959.0094d440@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829144730.00a884c0@mail.webgeek.com> At 02:32 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > At 10:54 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: > > >As the developer of web content management software, and the > webmaster for > > >over a dozen active websites, here's what I think XHTML should be. > > > > > >1. A tightening up of HTML. Eliminate the anomalies, like <li>, > <img>, <p> > > >that in HTML can appear without balancing </li>, </img>, </p> tags. XHTML > > >pages should be well-formed XML, with mods to HTML to bring it into > > >well-formedness. > > > > > >That's it. Nothing more > > > > > > And that's exactly the intention of XHTML 1.0. > >There's a little more -- XHTML 1.0 also *requires* the use of one of >the three XHTML Namespaces and of a DOCTYPE declaration, and hints at >a future system of modules. HTML 4.0 *required* the use of a doctype declaration as well (and by implication, a namespace). There's nothing new or surprising here. Yes, XHTML will be modularized. Those that want to take advantage of that will do so, those who don't won't. There's a public working draft on the subject (in the /TR/ structure) dated in April, so work has indeed continued after this, and a more current draft, when public, will shed more light on the group's intentions. That still doesn't negate the fact that XHTML 1.0 does indeed do what Dave has asked for. If he's arguing that that's all *any* XHTML development should do (which I don't read in his statement),then I disagree with him, as do many others. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 21:02:05 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> References: <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> At 02:43 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >(and I think that Tim's throw-away number was, if anything, a gross >underestimate -- I cannot imagine even 1 in 1000 processes caring >about the difference between transitional and strict) <snip> >You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely >because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL >(and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly >stand alone. Most specs fail anyway, complex or not (XML's success is >the exception rather than the rule), but it would be nice to give >XHTML at least a fighting chance. David, Did HTML 4.0 -- with it's three versions, fail from overcomplexity? Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 21:07:11 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] References: <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829143548.00a77d40@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37C936C7.C1EE5485@isogen.com> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 07:31 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > > >XHTML defines three distinct (but related) document types, each with its > >own DTD declarations, etc. Each of these document types *is considered > >to be* the definition of the corresponding name spaces x, y, and z. > > No, > > >That is, it's not meaningful to say that a DTD *has* a name space, > >because a name space isn't something that a DTD can have. > > Again, I've not said that a DTD *has a name space*. > > I'm saying: > > There are three flavors of XHTML 1.0 (that distinction of 1.0 vs 'XHTML' is > important). > Each has a namespace. > Each has a DTD. What part of "each has a namespace" isn't "has a name space"? XHTML defines is a document type or a a set of document types. Each document type presumably defines a vocabulary of names. This set of names *is* a name space. That name space may have a name (or names). But the vocabulary *cannot have* a name space, it *defines* a name space. Note that by "document type definition" I do not mean the DTD declarations, I mean the XHTML specification itself (or rather, those part of it that define sets of element types and attributes). That's all I'm saying. It's hair splitting, but technical standardization requires absolute precision of language. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun Aug 29 21:09:57 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:16 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 10:03 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >> it's just nuts to make them pretend that HTML >>is three different languages. > >Did we have this argument when HTML 4.0 went to PR? HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. It's routine for a language to have multiple DTDs for different purposes. It's surprising for it to have 3 names. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 21:17:11 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> At 12:12 PM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 01:16 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: > >At 10:03 AM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: > >> it's just nuts to make them pretend that HTML > >>is three different languages. > > > >Did we have this argument when HTML 4.0 went to PR? > >HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. It's >routine for a language to have multiple DTDs for different purposes. >It's surprising for it to have 3 names. -T. But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to prevent collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 21:18:43 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C93973.EC44CC5B@isogen.com> David Megginson wrote: > You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely > because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL > (and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly > stand alone. This is pure flame bait and has no place in this discussion. In what sense have architectures or HyTime failed? In what sense have they failed completely? David is *at this moment* working on project in which HyTime and architctures are being used to good effect. I use HyTime and architectures in everything I do. TechnoTeacher has developed a robust commercial system that implements HyTime and architectures (GroveMinder). Have these uses achieved the same breadth of acceptance that something like HTML has? No. Does that mean they are failures? No. Success and failure must be measured against suitability for requirements, not number of documents or number of users or number of seats. By that measure, all these standards are successful to one degree or another. They all meet their stated requirements, they have all been successfully implemented and used to solve real business problems. So have HTML and XML and, for that matter, name spaces. Would I like to see HyTime used more widely? Yes. Do I think it will take at least as long as other similarly complex and powerful systems took to get wide acceptance (about 10 years)? Yes. Am I worried about it not happening? No. While I certainly agree with David that *unnecessary* complexity should be avoided, it is a gross oversimplication to suggest that complex standards are failures simply because they are complex. HyTime is not complex for the sake of simplicity, it is complex because it solves complex problems. Will everyone need all that complexity? No. But when you do, there's a solution there. So no more talk about "failed" standards. I'm happy to talk about *shortcomings* of any of these standards--I'm probably as painfully aware of them as anybody. But having flaws is not the same as having failed. By this logic, the Space Shuttle would be a failure because there are only four of them while there are thousands of commercial jets and tens of thousands of much simpler small airplanes. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From distobj at acm.org Sun Aug 29 21:24:29 1999 From: distobj at acm.org (Mark Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> References: <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.2.32.19990829162508.0101025c@pop1.sympatico.ca> >Fortunately, XML isn't source code (or compiled code), so we don't >have the same problem -- I was using that example only to demonstrate >that once there's software deployed that recognizes a certain set of >XHTML Namespaces (preferably a set with one member), it will be very >difficult to introduce any new Namespaces. Which begs the question, when is it proper/suitable/desirable/"right" to create a new namespace? >From what I could see in the current XHTML PR, there's no good reason given for creating any at all. They might as well have given each tag its own namespace (well hey, namespaces are only for syntactical disambiguation, right?). Bill Joy has said that there are only three number that matter in computer science; 0, 1, and infinity. Once you're past 1, infinity's not that far off. 8-) MB xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Aug 29 21:26:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C977BA.9ED21899@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed > Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > > Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining > *three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and > frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. I've changed my mind on this issue since this morning (good thing I didn't post then). Names name things. The namespaces spec goes out of its way to be vague about the exact nature of the referents (which may or may not be a good thing). But someone, somewhere, must decide what the referents really are at least for some particular problem domain. -- In XHTML the referents are conceptual objects known as element types. Element types have the following properties: * names * lists of attributes and attribute types * content models * semantics It is extremely rare that you can make a stylesheet, query, computer program or other process without caring about all four of these things. If you make a stylesheet based on the HTML 4.0 strict DTD and HTML 5.0 strict allows a different content model then your stylesheet may very well crash. HTML strict documents may not be compatible with your HTML loose stylesheet. For instance, if your stylesheet is not explicitly We all intuitively know that for most purposes HTML 4.0 strict and HTML 4.0 loose are the same thing. This can be inferred in two ways: #1. The stylesheet (/program/query/...) creator might "just know" that their stylesheet works for both. If they "just know" then there should be some way for them to state that knowledge in their stylesheet (/program/query/...). #2. It might be a universal invariant that every document that conforms to HTML 4.0 strict also conforms to HTML 4.0 loose. In this case it can be safely "casted" as you might cast an unsigned integer to a signed integer or an integer to a float. The right place to state this second type of knowledge is not clear to me -- in the schema? In some sort of namespace declaration? In a shared database? In the schema seems simplest... There is a third one but we are still a ways from implementing it: it might be known that there is a *transformation* that can turn every document conforming to HTML loose into a reasonable HTML strict document (e.g. wrap all text nodes in <P>nodes). Then for all intents and purposes HTML loose is "as good as" HTML strict from a programs point of view. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Aug 29 21:26:52 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: Namespace Evolution Proposal Message-ID: <37C977C4.8E17613D@prescod.net> A very (very!) rough draft of a specification that allows us to reliably interpret variants of a particular document type. I wrote this a few months ago but never got time to clean it up and solicit comments. Now seems like a good time even if I can't clean it up right now. ---- It is often the case that two namespaces will be very similar but not quite identical. In this case "similar" means that the semantics and structures associated with names might be "close enough" for all processing associated with one namespace to also apply to the other. The namespaces specification does not address this issue. This specification describes a convention for stating that namespaces are similar and formally stating the nature of the similarlity. The scope of these declarations is the directly containing element and all of that element's children which follow the declaring element. The <xmlns:evolution href=""> element states that the attributes on the The <xmlns:same-name newURI="" newName="" oldURI="" oldName=""> states that the given name in the namespace "new" can be interpreted as identical to the name oldName in the namespace oldURI. So HTML 4.0 strict's A element type would be the same-name as HTML 4.0 loose's A element type. The <xmlns:subset newURI="" oldURI="" exceptions=""> element states that any name in the namespace "new" can be directly interpreted as a name in the namespace "old" except for the names specified in the exceptions attribute. So HTML 4.0 would be identical to HTML 3.0, except for the APPLET tag and some other similar stuff. The <xmlns:suppress newURI="" oldURI="" names=""> element states that elements and attributes with the listed names in the new namespace should be ignored by applications understanding only the old namespace. It should be as if they did not exist. For instance, HTML BGCOLOR attribute and BGSOUND element. The <xmlns:suppress-unknown-content newURI="" oldURI="" names=""> element states that sub-elements of the element that are not known by the application to be part of oldURI should be surpressed. For instance, HTML APPLET or OBJECT. The <xmlns:transform newURI="" newName="" oldURI="" oldName=""> <xmlns:transformation lang="" uri=""/> <xmlns:transformation lang="" uri=""/> </xml:transform> element states that the name newName in namespace newURI can be interpreted as equivalent to the name oldName in the namespace oldURI after the application of any of the given transformations. The lang attribute is a URI that identifies the transformation language. The lang attribute is optional if the transformation is defined in prose (for instance an "ignore elements that start with _" rule might be globally understood). Recommended transformation languages include XSLT, STTS, DSSSL, XML architectural forms (with or without a meta-dtd) and a Javascript/DOM program). Using the built-in transformational elements is superior to referring to an external transformation because they are guaranteed to be universally implemented. Using an external transformation in a simple, standardized external language is better than using an external transformation in a complex, standardized external language but it increases the liklihood of implementation. Using an external transformation in a standardized language is better than using one in an unstandardized language. The other option is provided only because some applications may require the extra flexibility of pointing (e.g.) to Java classes or an Active-X program. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun Aug 29 21:40:01 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829124129.00ab0660@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:13 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >>HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. It's >>routine for a language to have multiple DTDs for different purposes. >>It's surprising for it to have 3 names. -T. > >But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to prevent >collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three >names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". Except for, 99.99999% of programmers WANT "strict" <h2> and "transitional" <h2> to collide. If most people who processed HTML were engaged in DTD- sensitive validation, the multiple namespaces would have been a good idea. Except for almost nobody is, so they're a bad idea. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 21:53:38 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: How do you determine success? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> References: <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14281.35667.479734.681080@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > Did HTML 4.0 -- with it's three versions, fail from overcomplexity? Sorry to be harsh, but I almost never see the required HTML 4.0 DOCTYPE declaration at the top of Web pages and I know of no widely-deployed HTML user agent that actually tries to distinguish HTML 4.0 from HTML 3.* and do something useful based on that distinction (much less one that distinguishes the transitional and strict flavours). Certainly, the improved documentation was welcome, and HTML 4.0 was a brave attempt to codify and direct what was already industry practice. However, most specs will fail, just as most tadpoles will be eaten -- it's sad (and frustrating for those of us who volunteer so much time to help develop them), but that's the way it works. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 21:57:22 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990829124129.00ab0660@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829154949.00a92690@mail.webgeek.com> At 12:42 PM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 03:13 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: > >>HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. It's > >>routine for a language to have multiple DTDs for different purposes. > >>It's surprising for it to have 3 names. -T. > > > >But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to prevent > >collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three > >names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". > >Except for, 99.99999% of programmers WANT "strict" <h2> and "transitional" ><h2> to collide. Citations to anything aside from supposition? I find this incredibly hard to stomach. > If most people who processed HTML were engaged in DTD- >sensitive validation, the multiple namespaces would have been a good idea. >Except for almost nobody is, so they're a bad idea. So because much of the HTML-using public was under-educated about DTDs, let's forget about the distinctions? There is a *significant* difference in strict <h2> and transitional <h2>. Presentational attributes are forbidden in the former, and allowed in the later. Yes, they are the same basic structure (a heading of level 2), but the allowable attributes are far from the same. Remember, that XHTML 1.0 is the very first step in this project. It is a reformulation of the *existing HTML 4.0 spec* (3 flavors), into XML. It does that. No where in that spec does it say it will remain with three flavors forever. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 21:57:22 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> References: <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14281.36938.530514.519830@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to prevent > collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three > names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". Governments seem to think so. Every country has different laws, but in general, it's not only frowned upon but illegal for a person to have more than one name at the same time. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 22:07:19 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C93973.EC44CC5B@isogen.com> References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <37C93973.EC44CC5B@isogen.com> Message-ID: <14281.37134.923469.379519@localhost.localdomain> W. Eliot Kimber writes: > > You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely > > because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL > > (and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly > > stand alone. > > This is pure flame bait and has no place in this discussion. Apologies -- I listed these because (with the exception of Topic Maps, which I don't know as well) they're all specs that I was personally very fond of and spent a lot of time working with. Unfortunately, simply satisfying requirements is not a reasonable success measurement for specifications. The only justifiable reason for putting time and effort into standardization (especially for an International Standard) is to achieve the network effect, so that a lot of people sharing the same spec can share information and/or implementation work: boxcars can run on more than one railroad's tracks, IP packets can travel across more different kinds of networks, I can plug more than one brand of phone into my wall, I can use the standard C++ library on both Unix and Windows, etc. Perhaps it's too early to judge, and HyTime and DSSSL might still reach this point, but they have not done so yet despite the enormous efforts that people like James Clark, Paul Prescod, Eliot Kimber, and me have put into implementing and explaining them. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun Aug 29 22:09:43 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.2.32.19990829162508.0101025c@pop1.sympatico.ca> References: <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.2.32.19990829162508.0101025c@pop1.sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <14281.37746.527357.370720@localhost.localdomain> Mark Baker writes: > >Fortunately, XML isn't source code (or compiled code), so we don't > >have the same problem -- I was using that example only to demonstrate > >that once there's software deployed that recognizes a certain set of > >XHTML Namespaces (preferably a set with one member), it will be very > >difficult to introduce any new Namespaces. > > Which begs the question, when is it proper/suitable/desirable/"right" to > create a new namespace? The same time you'd create a new Java package, or change a company's domain name -- i.e. when it's no longer identifiable as the same thing. If the HTML WG decides that <a> should mean 'answer' rather than 'anchor', they should create a new Namespace; until then, leave it be. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 22:09:48 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: How do you determine success? In-Reply-To: <14281.35667.479734.681080@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829160341.00aa4100@mail.webgeek.com> At 03:55 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > Did HTML 4.0 -- with it's three versions, fail from overcomplexity? > >Sorry to be harsh, but I almost never see the required HTML 4.0 >DOCTYPE declaration at the top of Web pages and I know of no >widely-deployed HTML user agent that actually tries to distinguish >HTML 4.0 from HTML 3.* and do something useful based on that >distinction (much less one that distinguishes the transitional and >strict flavours). Is that not, then, a failure of the user agent and not the spec? If a user agent ignores something *required* - we can't save them from themselves. Indeed, because of this failure in user agents, combined with other tendencies of sub-par support for specs, the HTML-using world is becoming more aware of the need for DTDs and validation. Valid HTML documents have a better chance of displaying cross-browser and cross-platform as the author intended. Invalid ones are a crap-shoot. But none of this is an indication that we need to take HTML 4.0 out back and shoot it. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 22:12:15 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.36938.530514.519830@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829160732.00a80340@mail.webgeek.com> At 03:58 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to > prevent > > collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three > > names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". > >Governments seem to think so. Every country has different laws, but >in general, it's not only frowned upon but illegal for a person to >have more than one name at the same time. David, With all due respect, comparing a mechanism for naming abstract collections to legal names before a government is bordering, if not over the line, into absurdity. Let's focus on real, practical discussion of the proposal at hand. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From braden at endoframe.com Sun Aug 29 22:37:13 1999 From: braden at endoframe.com (Braden N . McDaniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <19990829163618.A16341@bonezero.endoframe> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 14:58:50 Ann Navarro wrote: > At 02:43 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > > >(and I think that Tim's throw-away number was, if anything, a gross > >underestimate -- I cannot imagine even 1 in 1000 processes caring > >about the difference between transitional and strict) > > <snip> > > >You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely > >because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL > >(and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly > >stand alone. Most specs fail anyway, complex or not (XML's success is > >the exception rather than the rule), but it would be nice to give > >XHTML at least a fighting chance. > > David, > > Did HTML 4.0 -- with it's three versions, fail from overcomplexity? Definitely. Or, which HTML 4.0-conforming browsers did you have in mind? Certainly HTML has succeeded, but HTML 4.0 just isn't a reality on the Web yet. I don't consider that successful. -- Braden N. McDaniel braden@endoframe.com <URI:http://www.endoframe.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From whisper at accessone.com Sun Aug 29 22:39:29 1999 From: whisper at accessone.com (David LeBlanc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.36938.530514.519830@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.58.19990829151246.00a94490@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990829134837.01aba770@mail.accessone.com> I don't know where you live, but it is not illegal to have more then one name in the United States - consider, for example, "nom de plumes". So long as you aren't trying to change your name or use an additional name to avoid prosecution etc. it's not only not illegal, it's been protected by court decisions. Dave LeBlanc At 03:58 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > But since the purpose of names is an abstract function designed to prevent > > collisions in naming, it does not necessarily follow that having three > > names is "bad" even if it does "surprise". > >Governments seem to think so. Every country has different laws, but >in general, it's not only frowned upon but illegal for a person to >have more than one name at the same time. > > >All the best, > > >David > >-- >David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 22:39:55 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <19990829163618.A16341@bonezero.endoframe> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829163547.00aa4e70@mail.webgeek.com> At 04:36 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: >Definitely. Or, which HTML 4.0-conforming browsers did you have in mind? > >Certainly HTML has succeeded, but HTML 4.0 just isn't a reality on the Web >yet. I don't consider that successful. It's not? How is it less a reality than HTML 3.2? Which browsers fully conform to that? (DTD requirements and all?) --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun Aug 29 22:59:23 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829140207.00cd47e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:54 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >>Except for, 99.99999% of programmers WANT "strict" <h2> and "transitional" >><h2> to collide. > >Citations to anything aside from supposition? I find this incredibly hard >to stomach. Just all the HTML-processing code I've ever written. Which is quite a bit of code but admittedly a tiny subset of the universe. Let me play it another way. There is one class of application - authoring software - that potentially cares about which DTD is in play (although I've not observed that successful HTML editors seem to care very much). All other classes that I can think of think an <h2> is an <h2> is an <h2>. Thus, the namespace selection for XHTML 1.0 is strongly biased in favor of the creators of authoring applications, at a cost of substantially more work for the creators of all others. Maybe this is the intent, but I don't recall seeing ever put that way - am I missing something obvious, Ann? At the end of the day, it's probably not a big problem. The idea of having *one* canonical namespace URI that is conventionally used to refer to the collection of tags generally known as "HTML" is just so incredibly useful that the XHTML 1.0 design errors won't get in the way - someone will just propose that "from here on in, let's agree to use http://www.w3.org/HTML to mean HTML" and it'll catch on and that'll be the end of the story. It's kind of sad that the HTML WG has chosen not to provide the world with this incredibly useful (and needed *right now*) conventional identifier, but have no fear, someone else will. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 23:20:42 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990829140207.00cd47e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829171401.00a73bb0@mail.webgeek.com> At 02:02 PM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >There is one class of application - authoring >software - that potentially cares about which DTD is in play (although >I've not observed that successful HTML editors seem to care very much). All >other classes that I can think of think an <h2> is an <h2> is an <h2>. If you limit the argument to current applications, perhaps. What about authors? What about those who want to gracefully transform across platforms and browsers? Do they not count in this equation? Those authors care about DTDs, in that the DTD provides validation, which can help ensure that portability. >Thus, the namespace selection for XHTML 1.0 is strongly biased in favor >of the creators of authoring applications, at a cost of substantially more >work for the creators of all others. Faulty assumption. At the end of the day, it's probably not a big problem. The idea of >having *one* canonical namespace URI that is conventionally used to refer >to the collection of tags generally known as "HTML" is just so incredibly >useful that the XHTML 1.0 design errors won't get in the way - someone >will just propose that "from here on in, let's agree to use >http://www.w3.org/HTML to mean HTML" and it'll catch on and that'll be >the end of the story. It's kind of sad that the HTML WG has chosen not to >provide the world with this incredibly useful (and needed *right now*) >conventional identifier, but have no fear, someone else will. -Tim If someone wants to propose a name for *HTML* -- they certainly can. We're not working in that space any longer. We don't feel in any way that we've failed the world in providing them something useful. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From braden at endoframe.com Sun Aug 29 23:23:12 1999 From: braden at endoframe.com (Braden N . McDaniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <19990829172213.B16341@bonezero.endoframe> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 16:36:38 Ann Navarro wrote: > At 04:36 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: > > >Definitely. Or, which HTML 4.0-conforming browsers did you have in mind? > > > >Certainly HTML has succeeded, but HTML 4.0 just isn't a reality on the Web > >yet. I don't consider that successful. > > It's not? > > How is it less a reality than HTML 3.2? Which browsers fully conform to > that? (DTD requirements and all?) Just about any valid HTML 3.2 document will be rendered correctly by todays browsers. There are exceptions, but you generally have to reach for them--generally the problems are with parsing seldom-used constructions, not with actual element support. HTML 3.2 wasn't a particularly successful spec either, but that never mattered since its only real purpose was to endorse the success browsers were already enjoying with the additional tags they had added. Attributing this success to HTML 3.2 is simply revisionist. Creating an HTML 4.0 document that will be butchered by today's browsers is a snap. There are elements that remain unrecognized in the popular browsers. EMBED, which is part of no HTML spec, remains more popular on the Web than OBJECT simply because it works better. That's how it's less a reality than HTML 3.2. -- Braden N. McDaniel braden@endoframe.com <URI:http://www.endoframe.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 23:31:04 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <19990829172213.B16341@bonezero.endoframe> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829172622.00a6cac0@mail.webgeek.com> At 05:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: >Creating an HTML 4.0 document that will be butchered by today's browsers >is a snap. There are elements that remain unrecognized in the popular >browsers. EMBED, which is part of no HTML spec, remains more popular on >the Web than OBJECT simply because it works better. That's how it's less a >reality than HTML 3.2. If you have to reach for EMBED and OBJECT for examples, I can't by any stretch call this a failure. Nearly the entire HWG site is written in valid HTML 4.0 (and CSS) and it doesn't fail at all (www.hwg.org) It can be done, and it's not at all hard. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Sun Aug 29 23:51:47 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <37C93973.EC44CC5B@isogen.com> <14281.37134.923469.379519@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C95D99.39AE2371@isogen.com> David Megginson wrote: > > W. Eliot Kimber writes: > > > > You and I, Paul have seen too many worthy specs fail completely > > > because of superfluous complexity -- HyTime, Topic Maps, and DSSSL > > > (and Architectural Forms) spring immediately to mind, but they hardly > > > stand alone. > > > > This is pure flame bait and has no place in this discussion. > > Apologies -- I listed these because (with the exception of Topic Maps, > which I don't know as well) they're all specs that I was personally > very fond of and spent a lot of time working with. Appology gladly accepted--I didn't think you were really trying to bait flame. But I think your tone of despair, while understandable, is unwarranted, at least so far. > Unfortunately, simply satisfying requirements is not a reasonable > success measurement for specifications. The only justifiable reason > for putting time and effort into standardization (especially for an > International Standard) is to achieve the network effect, so that a > lot of people sharing the same spec can share information and/or > implementation work: boxcars can run on more than one railroad's > tracks, IP packets can travel across more different kinds of networks, > I can plug more than one brand of phone into my wall, I can use the > standard C++ library on both Unix and Windows, etc. > > Perhaps it's too early to judge, and HyTime and DSSSL might still > reach this point, but they have not done so yet despite the enormous > efforts that people like James Clark, Paul Prescod, Eliot Kimber, and > me have put into implementing and explaining them. Agreed that the network effect is the goal, but it holds at different scales and need not hold at the highest level to have achieved significant benefit. I think that it is *way too early* to judge. HyTime and DSSSL are only two years old. We are just now getting HyTime implemented in an industrial strength way. From this experience, we will need to make a number of adjustments to the spec to fix real bugs, fill holes, etc. That means we're really not even fully out of the shute yet. There are a relatively small number of early adopters who need what HyTime can provide. There are a large number of others who need it but either don't realize it yet or require a much more pervasive technology base. The HyTime design is good--if you try to solve the same set of problems you're going to come up with pretty much the same answer we did, I'm pretty sure, so I'm betting that when the masses finally understand the nature of the problem and the type of solution they need, that HyTime will be very attractive. In the mean time, I'll keep doing what I can with it. At Metastructures, I presented on work we're doing to implement a reasonably-large-scale HyTime-based system at Woodward governor. This will be our first production use of HyTime and GroveMinder (TechnoTeacher's HyTime middleware product) that we can talk about openly. I think it will serve as a dramatic demonstration of what the technology does and help move things along. Note too that I consider XLink to be part of the HyTime effort because it makes the core concepts of HyTime easier to see and use. XLink's semantic and syntactic models are fully compatible with HyTime's so XLink provides a smooth migration path from the simple applications to more sophisticated ones. And again, there's a difference in requirement sets: XLink is optimized for ease of delivery and processing, HyTime is optimized for flexibility and ease of authoring (many of HyTime's features are there to minimize the syntax authors have to type when creating links). I would also consider HyTime a success if it contributed to the development of a new standard that solved the same problems but, for whatever reason, was more accepted. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From braden at endoframe.com Sun Aug 29 23:51:32 1999 From: braden at endoframe.com (Braden N . McDaniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <19990829175046.C16341@bonezero.endoframe> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:27:42 Ann Navarro wrote: > At 05:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: > > >Creating an HTML 4.0 document that will be butchered by today's browsers > >is a snap. There are elements that remain unrecognized in the popular > >browsers. EMBED, which is part of no HTML spec, remains more popular on > >the Web than OBJECT simply because it works better. That's how it's less a > >reality than HTML 3.2. > > If you have to reach for EMBED and OBJECT for examples, I can't by any > stretch call this a failure. Citing a tag as commonly used as EMBED isn't a reach by any means. The lack of a W3C-specified alternative with working implementations is a significant failure. But you want more examples? ABBR isn't recognized. Q isn't handled correctly. THEAD, TFOOT, TBODY, COL, and COLGROUP are only available in IE, among the popular browsers. > Nearly the entire HWG site is written in valid HTML 4.0 (and CSS) and it > doesn't fail at all (www.hwg.org) And just how many constructions does it use that don't also appear in HTML 3.2? > It can be done, and it's not at all hard. Not the issue. The issue is that it's far too easy to create HTML 4 documents that *don't* display correctly in current browsers. -- Braden N. McDaniel braden@endoframe.com <URI:http://www.endoframe.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Sun Aug 29 23:57:10 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <19990829175046.C16341@bonezero.endoframe> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829175301.00a7a4c0@mail.webgeek.com> At 05:50 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: >Not the issue. The issue is that it's far too easy to create HTML 4 >documents that *don't* display correctly in current browsers. I don't remember that being the issue. It's just as easy to create HTML 3.2 documents that don't display either. But in the scheme of whether the XHTML 1.0 PR is a good thing --- So? Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From braden at endoframe.com Mon Aug 30 00:12:21 1999 From: braden at endoframe.com (Braden N . McDaniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:27 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <19990829181134.D16341@bonezero.endoframe> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 17:53:46 Ann Navarro wrote: > At 05:50 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: > > >Not the issue. The issue is that it's far too easy to create HTML 4 > >documents that *don't* display correctly in current browsers. > > I don't remember that being the issue. The issue was whether HTML 4.0 is a success, and the ease with which HTML 4.0 documents can be created which implementations can't display correctly is certainly key to analyzing that. > It's just as easy to create HTML 3.2 documents that don't display either. Are you really contesting the popularly accepted notion that modern browsers support a greater percentage of HTML 3.2 than of HTML 4.0? While I've never seen a quantitative analysis proving this (nor have I any desire to undertake it myself), my experience authoring HTML certainly suggests it is the case. Your statement above flies in the face of this conventional wisdom. -- Braden N. McDaniel braden@endoframe.com <URI:http://www.endoframe.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 00:22:52 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <19990829181134.D16341@bonezero.endoframe> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829181805.00a80590@mail.webgeek.com> At 06:11 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: >Are you really contesting the popularly accepted notion that modern >browsers support a greater percentage of HTML 3.2 than of HTML 4.0? I'm stating that if you try hard enough, you can create something that will fail in about any language. In both HTML 3.2 and HTML 4.0, it is perfectly feasiable to design documents that work as intended. HTML 4.0 does not universally fail. You do not have to avoid substantial methods that are popularly available to make it not fail. But again, let's get back to the issue at hand: is XHTML 1.0 something that should go to Rec. Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edd at usefulinc.com Mon Aug 30 00:30:48 1999 From: edd at usefulinc.com (Edd Dumbill) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: Element/Attribute Distinction Considered Harmful In-Reply-To: <199908291624.MAA04244@hesketh.net>; from Simon St.Laurent on Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:26:09PM -0400 References: <199908291624.MAA04244@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <19990829223330.I30483@heddley.com> On Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:26:09PM -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: > After writing the usual 'when to use elements and when to use attributes' bit > for a new book and then spending some time close up with the XLink specs, I'm > really starting to wonder if we haven't painted ourselves into a corner by > treating leaf elements and attributes differently. [ ... ] > It seems like child elements and attributes are both basically name-value > pairs. In the case of child elements, we treat order as important, while in > the case of attributes it's considered unclear. > > Apart from being the status quo, does this approach really make sense? Am I > the only one wondering if maybe it's time to start breaking down this > distinction - at least within schemas - to give XML some of the flexibility > the > current system denies? > > I'd love to hear people's opinions on this subject, if indeed anyone else > considers it worth addressing. It has immediate impact on developments like > schemas, as well as significant implications for XLink and potentially CSS > style application. I'm glad that you have raised this issue. It's been something that I've noticed during my relatively limited time developing XML DTDs and tools to support some of my projects (my limited experience should qualify my opinions following...) The typical scenario would arise where I decided one piece of data ought to be an attribute and then later discovered that I needed the flexibility that came from being an element. Taking that experience to an extreme would suggest that there is no need for attributes per se other than their extremely useful shorthand. It would seem that with the advent of schemas this case is strengthened. One current advantage of attributes would be the extent to which you can designate permissible values through the DTD, which is something you can't really do for elements quite so tightly. But schemas would remove this advantage. The other change which provokes your question seems to be the growth in use of XML for data-centric, rather than document-centric, applications (by this I mean a move away from purely publishing and document centered applications: the SGML heritage). It is simpler for programs and tools to use one construct rather than two in composition of data types. It also seems more "future-compatible": I cannot add complexity easily to an attribute, yet I can do so to an element with some degree of control over reverse compatibility of my XML documents. I too have a fondness for attributes, but a nagging difficulty in justifying them other than in situations where I am constructing my documents "by hand". regards -- Edd Dumbill ------/ a new media consultant, writer & technologist /-- | Director, Useful Information Company <http://usefulinc.com> | Internet Director, Pharmalicensing <http://pharmalicensing.com> : UK voice/msg: +44 702-093-6870 UK fax: +44 870-164-0230 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 30 00:43:25 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829154557.00c68780@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 06:19 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >But again, let's get back to the issue at hand: is XHTML 1.0 something that >should go to Rec. It's obvious that XHTML 1.0 is a good idea - the notion that you can send along a package of tags that are known to be readable by a fast lightweight XML parser, but carry the widely-known HTML semantics, is an unambiguous good thing, and the HTML WG has done well in designing it. The gripe is with this silly 3-namespace notion, which materially decreases the utility of XHTML and establishes a violently dangerous precedent. If I were a voting member of the W3C advisory council, which I'm not, I'd vote to send it back to the WG to fix the namespace breakage, and once fixed, I'd vote to make it a W3C recommendation. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From braden at endoframe.com Mon Aug 30 00:50:03 1999 From: braden at endoframe.com (Braden N . McDaniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <19990829184916.E16341@bonezero.endoframe> On Sun, 29 Aug 1999 18:19:26 Ann Navarro wrote: > At 06:11 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Braden N . McDaniel wrote: > > >Are you really contesting the popularly accepted notion that modern > >browsers support a greater percentage of HTML 3.2 than of HTML 4.0? > > > I'm stating that if you try hard enough, you can create something that will > fail in about any language. "Try hard enough" is a far cry from, "it's just as easy." > In both HTML 3.2 and HTML 4.0, it is perfectly feasiable to design > documents that work as intended. Which isn't in any way suggestive of HTML 4.0's success, given that you can pretty much slap a HTML 4.0 Transitional doctype declaration on an HTML 3.2 document and have it work just as well. > HTML 4.0 does not universally fail. You do > not have to avoid substantial methods that are popularly available to make > it not fail. In measuring the success of the HTML 4.0 specification, "popularly available" can't reasonably be used as you've used it here. That success *hinges* on the constructs it specifies being made popularly available. If those constructs are not popularly available, then it detracts from the success of the specification. -- Braden N. McDaniel braden@endoframe.com <URI:http://www.endoframe.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 00:53:56 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990829154557.00c68780@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990829184732.00a5eef0@mail.webgeek.com> At 03:46 PM 8/29/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >The gripe is with this silly 3-namespace notion, which materially decreases >the utility of XHTML and establishes a violently dangerous precedent. There's where we disagree. I *could* go either way on the namespaces personally. Some very persuasive arguments brought me (and the group) back around to three. I think it's a bit melodramatic, however, to categorize this issue as a "violently dangerous precedent". Ann --- Ann Navarro Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Owner, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:23 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C9A498.FE51C625@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > That violates the basic rule of isolating complexity: if 99.9% of > processes will need to treat the three XHTML Namespaces as equivalent > (and I think that Tim's throw-away number was, if anything, a gross > underestimate -- I cannot imagine even 1 in 1000 processes caring > about the difference between transitional and strict), then it is > unjustifiable to force each process to manage the equivalences itself. I don't think that they should. I think that we should work a universal top-level equivalence mechanism that can be implemented with reusable engines. This is vital *anyhow* because e-commerce and EDI need it. > Even if there is, some day, a top-level equivalence-mapping feature, > people would still be forced to define the top-level mappings. Big deal. Defining the mappings is easier than defining the DTDs. In the case of these three DTDs, in fact, the equivalence is A is a subset of B which is a subset of C, right? So let's make a REC that allows us to say that and get on with life! A year ago you described an equivalence-describing system (for instances, not entire namespaces) that was only a few pages of prose and a few hundred lines of Java. For document types as closely related as the three HTMLs we could define a mechanism in one page of normative prose. I will almost always fight the idea of sweeping a problem under the carpet in order to "solve it later." It is twice as hard to fix it later. The infoset is the perfect example. We've got incompatibilities between XPath and the DOM up the wazoo because the XML working group swept the XML data model problem under the carpet. We are establishing a precedent and a principle here. Elements types with different content models are different. Applications need to be able to detect that difference. That HTML is typically so lax and loose that nobody cares is not really the issue. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:28 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > I agree that there needs to be some sort of versioning available -- it > could be an html:version attribute (the best solution, I think), or > perhaps just the version of the DTD used in the DOCTYPE declaration > (much messier). Can you specify an algorithm for determining when you have a new version vs. a new language? I can: you have a new language when instances can break conforming software. Instances can break conforming software as soon as you add an element or broaden the definition of an attribute. > I think that Namespaces are the wrong tool to use for versioning, > because using them that way makes easy, typical jobs much harder, and > that's just bad design. You keep repeating that it makes your life so much harder but what would be so brutal about standardizing and recognizing an equivalence declaration? For HTML's simple idea of equivalence, it would be trivial. > Fortunately, XML isn't source code (or compiled code), so we don't > have the same problem We have exactly the same problem. Assumptions about the form of the input may cease to be valid when the input's version number shifts. Only the people making the new version (or documents conforming to the new version) know whether it is safe to treat the new documents as old ones. **You cannot write software today that is guaranteed to be compatible with HTML 6.** > -- I was using that example only to demonstrate > that once there's software deployed that recognizes a certain set of > XHTML Namespaces (preferably a set with one member), it will be very > difficult to introduce any new Namespaces. Not with an equivalence mechanism. > They already have the mechanism: if you see an unknown attribute, > ignore it; if you see an unknown element, ignore its start and end > tags and process the content. It's not elegant, but it's workable. That doesn't work. The introduction of APPLET allowed paragraphs within paragraphs. Is it so far fetched that this could crash a standards-conformant application? What's the point of being standards conformant if you can't rely on any of the rules that you programmed your application to use. This, to me, is the crux of the issue. We have a responsibility as standardizers to implementors. > That said, as I mentioned above, I agree that some sort of versioning > is needed -- the three-Namespace approach just seems equivalent to > amputating my leg to get rid of a wart. There is no amputation required. Yes we have some work to do in defining the equivalence mechanism -- but we always had that work ahead of us. Yes there is some effort required in implementing it -- but that effort was going to be required regardless. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:03 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.2.32.19990829162508.0101025c@pop1.sympatico.ca> <14281.37746.527357.370720@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C9A6A2.F86DB3E5@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > The same time you'd create a new Java package, or change a company's > domain name -- i.e. when it's no longer identifiable as the same > thing. Wouldn't it be considered extremely bad practice to make version 1.1 of a Java package be backwards incompatible with version 1.0? Well the various versions of HTML are *incompatible* in a very basic sense: documents conforming to one do not conform to another. > If the HTML WG decides that <a> should mean 'answer' rather > than 'anchor', they should create a new Namespace; until then, leave > it be. So if HTML 6.0 has <a xlink:href=""> and not <a href=""> they should keep the same namespace? And if next year's <a> element allows <xlink:locator> sub-elements? And removes the href attribute? When is different different enough? I claim that as soon as any application could break because of the difference, that's different enough. What's the point of the namespace if you cannot rely on consistency in the objects that claim to derive from it? Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:16 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37C9AA86.FAEA943D@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. What definition of language are you using? What are the properties of a language? I claim that a language has three properties: 1. vocubulary 2. grammar 3. semantics HTML4 has 3 different vocabularies (two are presumably subsets). HTML4 has 3 different grammars (ditto). Insofar as nobody can define semantics and computers don't work with them, common semantics are irrelevant. Otherwise we could claim that Cold Fusion Markup Language (CFML) and HTML should share a namespace because all of the HTML element types share semantics with some CFML element types. Or DTML and HTML. Or even TEI and HTML or ... Some of the referents of names in some of these namespaces may interchangable. We need a way to say that explicitly. > It's > routine for a language to have multiple DTDs for different purposes. > It's surprising for it to have 3 names. -T. Until recently our only name for languages *was* the DTD's public or system identifier. Therefore it has been routine for similar languages to have differing names: PUBLIC "-//TEI//DTD TEI Lite 1.5 //EN" "pubtext/teilite.dtd" PUBLIC "-//TEI//DTD TEI Lite 1.6//EN" "pubtext/teilite.dtd" PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN" strict.dtd PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" pubtext\html\html4.dtd PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Frameset//EN" frameset.dtd PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN" PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN//HTML" Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:21 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <3.0.32.19990829100332.00cd1310@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37C96D8A.B6114E2A@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > David. Since an HTML <p> or <h2> or <br> has the same import for > 99.99999% of applications.... ^^^^^^^^^ > HTML - which, we can be reasonably sure, will continue to have <A> elements > with relatively comparable meaning to those of today. ^^^^^^^^^^ So the solution to the namespace evolution problem is "just hope?" Is that going to be sufficient when we start looking at purchase order and mortgage application document types? I claim that if HTML 5.0 is "similar enough" to HTML 4.0 that it can be interpreted as HTML 4.0 then someone, somewhere should *say that*. An application may only presume "close enough" if the application is not mission critical (which, arguably, web browsers seldom are). Namespaces alone cannot solve the namespace evolution problem. We are trying to stretch them beyond their simple but important abilities. > Which means that I, as a programmer, can *NEVER EVER EVER* > write code that says > > if (elementType() == 'a' and elementNamespace() == 'HTML') > doHTMLHyperlink() > and hope to have it continue working in the face of future versions of > HTML NEVER EVER EVER is a long time. We can do it tomorrow if we develop a namespace evolution strategy. There is nothing difficult or magical here. SGML architectural forms have allowed this for what, about 5 years now? Of course on the Web our strategy would be based on W3C specifications. We need a standards conformant way to say that "HTML 5.0 documents can be treated as HTML 4.0 if you apply the following XSLT transform". It sounds like a three page W3C REC to me. Or else we could do it right in the schema. That's another valid way of going about it (and closer to the architectural form paradigm). Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 01:17:54 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: How do you determine success? References: <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> <14281.35667.479734.681080@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C9AFEC.257B4480@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Sorry to be harsh, but I almost never see the required HTML 4.0 > DOCTYPE declaration at the top of Web pages and I know of no > widely-deployed HTML user agent that actually tries to distinguish > HTML 4.0 from HTML 3.* and do something useful based on that > distinction (much less one that distinguishes the transitional and > strict flavours). The user agents "just know" that the various versions of HTML are all the same. Even if we don't develop a top-level equivalence mapping, the market will implement this knowledge in processors just as they did in the past. It is unfortunate that XSLT did not forsee this need but that can be rectified. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Aug 30 01:44:59 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990829164533.00cdf980@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:27 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >Namespaces alone cannot solve the namespace evolution problem. We are >trying to stretch them beyond their simple but important abilities. Right. What XHTML 1.0 is trying to do is an example of just this. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Mon Aug 30 01:52:44 1999 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> References: <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990830095107.00ca0b90@203.41.126.17> At 03:27 30/08/1999 , Ann Navarro wrote: >At 06:41 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > >> > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have three 'flavors' of >> XHTML 1.0 >> > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, not the end sum of our >> > work), that essentially map to the three flavors of HTML 4.0. Each of them >> > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in title to the three flavor >> > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs for their namespaces. (nor >> > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, Schemas, as has been pointed >> out, >> > 'isn't soup yet') >> >>But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, a namespace cannot >>be the *definition* of what these three flavors are. > > >I didn't say they did define anything. I said they each have a namespace. >Period. They each have a DTD. Period. > >They happen to share a string for a portion of their titles. > >That does not say "the namespace defines the flavors". > >Ann So what does this mean in practice. If namespaces *and* DTDs are used, I presume that the namespaces are explicitly written into the DTDs. Does this mean, I would have to type: <strict:p>A paragraph instead of just <p>A paragraph If so, I can tell you now, it's all going to fail. (PS. I know the answer is probably in the spec, but too much to do this morning - no time to go off and read yet another spec.) Cheers, J ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 30 02:16:28 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C9AA86.FAEA943D@prescod.net> References: <3.0.32.19990829120704.00c58a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <37C9AA86.FAEA943D@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14281.51677.159956.102376@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > HTML4 has 3 DTDs. That certainly doesn't mean it's 3 languages. > > What definition of language are you using? Once people said that a language is just a dialect with an army and a navy, but in the 19th and early 20th centuries the United States went to all the trouble of building their own army and navy and still didn't end up with their own language. What that really means is that people tend to use the language name to make the most important, not the least important distinctions. I call what people in much of Canada, the U.S., England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, and parts of India and South Africa speak as their mother tongue "English" despite the enormous differences among them (and among different regions and among different socio-economic groups within each region). Most of the time, that's the most important distinction to me: I want to know if someone is speaking (or writing) English or German, not Central-Canadian-young-university-educated-suburban-English or Eastern-US-rural-working-class-Tidewater-English or whatever. Still, the differences are significant: there are differences in vocabulary (CA "chocolate bar" = US "candy bar", UK "boot" = US "trunk", etc.), differences in grammar (morphological differences like "y'all" vs "youse" and many syntactic differences), and differences in pronunciation. If I need to draw attention to these differences, I do so with a secondary qualifier ("Scottish English", etc.), but most of the time I don't need to make that distinction so I don't bother with the qualifier. This all matters, because naming HTML elements is really the same thing -- the name should identify the most obvious information, not the least obvious. I agree with Paul that we need a method for discovering the version of HTML names (or any names) being used, but I have not heard any good argument about why we cannot just use an html:version attribute -- that way, what Eliot calls "cheap processors" will still work more-or-less OK, while fancy processors can check the version and do the right thing. The alternative -- inventing a whole machinery of Namespace URI equivalence mappings -- seems a little heavy-handed for such a simple problem. > Until recently our only name for languages *was* the DTD's public or > system identifier. Therefore it has been routine for similar languages > to have differing names: > > PUBLIC "-//TEI//DTD TEI Lite 1.5 //EN" "pubtext/teilite.dtd" > PUBLIC "-//TEI//DTD TEI Lite 1.6//EN" "pubtext/teilite.dtd" > > PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN" strict.dtd > PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" pubtext\html\html4.dtd > PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Frameset//EN" frameset.dtd > > PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN" > PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Added Latin 1//EN//HTML" Wrong -- those are the names of the schemas, not the names of the languages. TEI and HTML have long had human-readable names that most people use most of the time: Namespaces is just an attempt to help machines to disambiguate them. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 30 02:20:35 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > You keep repeating that it makes your life so much harder but what would > be so brutal about standardizing and recognizing an equivalence > declaration? For HTML's simple idea of equivalence, it would be trivial. It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; getting software developers to recognize all three XHTML Namespaces (even if doing so requires only a three lines of code) will be all the more difficult, and introduces three times the opportunity for bugs and for interoperability problems because of omissions. > > Fortunately, XML isn't source code (or compiled code), so we don't > > have the same problem > > We have exactly the same problem. Assumptions about the form of the > input may cease to be valid when the input's version number > shifts. This will be the third time that I've mentioned that I agree that some sort of versioning is useful. Most processors won't care most of the time, so the versioning shouldn't take a form that makes their life harder, but what's wrong with a 'version' attribute in the HTML Namespace? Processors that don't need it can ignore it, and those that do need it can still get the information they need. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Mon Aug 30 04:10:58 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: NAMESPACES: expressing commonality or distinction Message-ID: <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> I was originally a one-namespace supporter on the grounds that capturing the commonality between element types in the different XHTMLs was valuable. Then I was persuaded that the purpose of namespaces is to make sure that if two "p"s mean two different things, they can be distinguished, **NOT** that if two "p"s mean the same thing, they can be expressed the same way. This made me tend towards being a three-namespace supporter. However, as David Megginson and Tim Bray have argued, capturing the commonality between, say, "p" in each DTD is not just valuable, but pretty much vital. It seems to me that this is an argument to expand the role of namespaces (to express commonality, not just distinction) on grounds of practicality. I imagine that most people would agree that: 1. There is a difference between strict:p and transitional:p 2. The difference is small and most applications will not care about it 3. Most applications *will* care about the commonality But the fact of the matter is that it is application-specific. Yes, it may be the case that 99.9% or more of applications care about the commonality, not the difference, but what we ultimately need is a means for the applications that care about the difference to be able to distinguish strict:p and transitional:p and those (the majority, admittedly) that don't care, to see them as the same. To use, as others have done, the example of natural language: there are some applications that just want to know if X is in English and some applications that need to know whether X is US English, Australian English, Encarta English, or whatever. The one-namespace supporters would probably say: * use namespaces to recognize commonality * use DTD identifier to recognize difference The three-namespace supporters would probably say: * use namesapces to recognize difference * use some other mechanism to recognize commonality What I would like to see is some alternative mechanisms put forward to recognize commonality. Here are a couple of possibilities: 1. PREFIX MATCHING ON NAMESPACE URIs Use URIs to develop a hierarchy of namespaces and then allow underspecification for matching via prefixes. Use the Namespace URIs: http://www.w3.org/HTML/Strict/1.0 http://www.w3.org/HTML/Transitional/1.0 and allow applications to match http://www.w3.org/HTML or http://www.w3.org/HTML/Strict or http://www.w3.org/HTML/Strict/1.0 depending on what they care about PRO: uses existing namespace mechanism CON: would require modification to XPath, etc. 2. A COMMON ATTRIBUTE THAT CAN BE MATCHED Have all elements in all three DTDs take a FIXED attribute. For example: w3c:vocab="HTML" xmlns:w3c="http://www.w3.org/" Then applications can match - by namespace or - by "vocab" attribute depending on what they care about PRO: doesn't require modification of XPath, etc. CON: invents new mechanism What do people think? James -- James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com Maintainer of : www.xmlinfo.com, www.xmlsoftware.com and www.schema.net <pipe>Ceci n'est pas une pipe</pipe> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From liamquin at interlog.com Mon Aug 30 04:54:12 1999 From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: STOP! Re: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.3.96r.990829231607.25739A-100000@shell1.interlog.com> I seem to have 14,000 messages about this already. Are the right people lietening? I.e., is the discussion being heard by the people developing XHTML? If not, please stop! Bit if they are listening, and the conversation is having a useful effect, please ignore this message entirely... Thanks Lee -- Liam Quin, Barefoot Computing, Toronto; The barefoot agitator l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m Ankh on irc.sorcery.net, ankle5/Ankle{MD} on DALnet xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at docuverse.com Mon Aug 30 06:51:09 1999 From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: Status of Topic Map standard (ISO/IEC 13250)? Message-ID: <000001bef2a3$c0b91a60$e80bfea9@w21tp> Last I heard about it was when someone (W. Eliot Kimber, I think) announced late 1998 that it was going into final ballot. What is its current status? My thanks in advance. Best, Don Park - mailto:donpark@docuverse.com Docuverse - http://www.docuverse.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at docuverse.com Mon Aug 30 07:36:24 1999 From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSI.3.96r.990829231607.25739A-100000@shell1.interlog.com> Message-ID: <000101bef2aa$15c13be0$e80bfea9@w21tp> >I seem to have 14,000 messages about this already. > >Are the right people lietening? I.e., is the discussion being heard >by the people developing XHTML? This is an important issue that affects everyone working with XHTML so it deserves further discussion. Personally, I am for having only one namespace for XHTML for two reasons: 1. Less headaches for me. 2. Less headaches for my customers. Namespace is just a scheme for sorting out the names regardless of how the names are used. I would like to see just one namespace for all three variations and future versions of XHTML. It is true that semantics of these tags might be changed in the future but that is just plain bad engineering from my point of view and should never happen. Replying Don Park - mailto:donpark@docuverse.com Docuverse - http://www.docuverse.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Mon Aug 30 07:50:45 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.4 Message-ID: <37CA1BD1.4C4B1DE3@pobox.com> DLSI=adpO This release fixes an extraneous print statement that I neglected to remove before I released 0.3. Please upgrade to this version if you're using XML::RSS 0.3. I also updated examples/rss2html.pl to use a few of the optional elements added to RSS 0.91. This is an alpha release because the API has not been finalized. The module will be available at your local CPAN archive. Alternatively, try this URL: http://www.perlxml.com/modules/XML-RSS-0.4.tar.gz This Perl module provides a basic framework for creating and maintaining Rich Site Summary (RSS) files. RSS is primarily used for distributing news headlines, commonly called channels, and is used primarily on Netscape's Netcenter, http://my.netscape.com, and Userland Software's http://my.userland.com. More information on RSS can be found at: http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/mnn20/quickstart.html Please send comments, problems, etc. to eisen@pobox.com. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 30 12:26:44 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: NAMESPACES: expressing commonality or distinction In-Reply-To: <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> References: <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <14282.22798.625545.235059@localhost.localdomain> James Tauber writes: > I imagine that most people would agree that: > > 1. There is a difference between strict:p and transitional:p > 2. The difference is small and most applications will not care > about it And for those that do, an 'html:version' attribute would be quite sufficient -- applications could ignore it easily if they didn't need it, but would have all of the required versioning information if they did. > 3. Most applications *will* care about the commonality > > But the fact of the matter is that it is application-specific. Yes, but who cares? Writing standards is about interoperability, not theoretical completeness. Proper standard writing requires fierce cost-benefit analysis: the proper question is "what will bring the most good to the most users with the simplest spec", not "how much can fit into this spec in case someone wants it some day". One problem is that ISO and the W3C are both doing standardization backwards these days -- the idea of standardization is traditionally to align current practice (we all have railroads, so let's use the same rail gauge), not to invent new practice (hey, maybe someone will invent railroads in fifty years -- let's standardize the gauge for all four rails that we think they might need, and the width of the brick path for the horse in the middle while we're at it [at which point a long debate ensues about whether horses or donkeys will pull trains]). Once we start standardizing things that don't exist yet, we're really wasting everyone's time -- after all, spec writers like me aren't smart enough for that sort of thing. For example, take SAX 1.0 -- when we developed it, nearly every XML or SGML parser had it's own, slightly-different event-based API. SAX didn't really innovate or add new kinds of functionality -- it just pulled all of those together so that parsers could benefit from the network effect. Likewise, people were already using SGML (on the one hand) and extending HTML (on the other), and most of us in the SGML community had agreed that we could jettison some of the stuff in ISO 8879 so there was a proven need for XML. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon Aug 30 14:07:04 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.37134.923469.379519@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEHJEAAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: ------------------------------ Perhaps it's too early to judge, and HyTime and DSSSL might still reach this point, but they have not done so yet despite the enormous efforts that people like James Clark, Paul Prescod, Eliot Kimber, and me have put into implementing and explaining them. Didier answer: ---------------------------- You are right, a lot of people have put efforts into Jade. However, the major flaw has been a lack of adequate documentation. Just take today, XML and XML related technologies have several books written on the subject. Most contain chapters about technologies like XLL or XSL not even at the recomendation stage. So, DSSSL suffered not from complexity but from bad packaging (the specs not packaged in modules from the simple to the complex), lack of documentation. We try to correct this state of fact with the OpenJade project. And as you saw in Montreal, DSSSL can now be used for on-line rendition with the same level of difficulties as CSS (the simple) up to quite complex rendition for printing (the complex). Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From c.galiano at ua.es Mon Aug 30 15:22:40 1999 From: c.galiano at ua.es (Cristobal Galiano Fernandez) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: Text Message-ID: <37CA86F2.A3AFD0C@ua.es> Text xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 15:42:16 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990830095107.00ca0b90@203.41.126.17> References: <4.2.0.58.19990829132605.00a6c3f0@mail.webgeek.com> <37C91C76.C2A281EA@isogen.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829095901.00a72cc0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830094008.041b0ec0@mail.webgeek.com> At 09:53 AM 8/30/99 +1000, James Robertson wrote: >So what does this mean in practice. For all intents and purposes, on the Web, a big fat nothing. Web browsers don't do namespaces. >If namespaces *and* DTDs are used, I presume >that the namespaces are explicitly written into >the DTDs. Huh? No. >Does this mean, I would have to type: > > <strict:p>A paragraph > >instead of just > > <p>A paragraph You *only* have to manage the namespaces like that when you're blending them (e.g. inserting a portion of XHTML markup in an XML or SVG document, perhaps), or doing something else that requires it. Joe Web Developer isn't going to be doing that. They'll be writing XHTML just like they write HTML today. >If so, I can tell you now, it's all going to >fail. > >(PS. I know the answer is probably in the spec, >but too much to do this morning - no time to >go off and read yet another spec.) Well, if people are going to comment on the suitability of XHTML 1.0 to go to Recommendation, it would be nice if they did indeed "go off and read yet another spec." At least half the melodramatics would be gone if people would read instead of assume. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 15:50:24 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: Another look at namespaces Message-ID: <37CA7941.BCF93A54@prescod.net> There are two separate issues here. #1. In 1999 XHTML can either have three namespaces or one. If it has three then there will be a one-to-one relationship between namespaces and grammars so that a programmer can know the grammar of the input data. Programmers that want to treat the three as one will have to do so by issuing some command to their namespace processor or (better) by usuing a namespace processor that recognizes an embedded instruction. Either way works because programmers know today what to expect and can write their code accordingly. Hell, we could have one namespace per element type or one namespace for all W3C specifications and you could still write code that works. I think that people are really concerned more about the precedent than today's issue. #2. In 2000, 2001, 2002, etc. there will be new versions of XHTML. Some (probably all) of these will be backwards incompatible as every version of HTML has been backwards incompatible: a document conforming to the new vocabular/grammar can break code expecting the old vocabulary/grammar. It is *vital* that a) there be a way to announce this backwards-incompatibility and b) there be an infrastructure that allows a mapping from new to old. The namespace is the obvious way to do the former. We have no good mechanism for the latter. As I've said, this is also necessary for e-commerce and every other XML application. If we develop this mechanism now then the first wave of XHTML software will be automatically ready for XHTML 2.0 (not to mention e-commerce). I can understand the wish to delay the problem but it just means that we cause a train wreck later on. I am deathly afraid, however, that if we set a precedent of pretending that these three variants are "one language" we will continue down that path as we develop more and more incompatible new versions. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 15:57:29 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <000001bef27e$609940d0$0100a8c0@lynnparknt1.globalserve.net > References: <4.2.0.58.19990829184732.00a5eef0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830094442.041becc0@mail.webgeek.com> At 08:26 PM 8/29/99 -0400, Ed Nixon wrote: >However, what I haven't seen 'mongst the sound and fury is anything from Ann >or anyone else regarding the 'persuasive arguments' she mentions in support >of the multi-namespace approach. I hope there are no constraints in her >sharing them with us. Well, I tend to err on the side of caution there, in that much of the argument occured within the scope of WG meetings. Paul Prescod has rightly pointed out that we need a Namespaces Evolution process. We don't have one, yet people are forced to try and forsee how that might be managed, and sort of eek out one of their own. My interpretation of W3C management stance is that namespaces can indeed be bound to schemas. (Based on comments directly from Tim Berners-Lee and others) Logically, this makes sense. It gives us something to do with it. It answers the argument that there is no "there" there in namespaces. (A very common response and frustration to using them). Consider the English alphabet. We know, as an abstract concept, that this is the letters a through z. We can call it the English Alphabet Namepsace, and give it a URI over at Merriam-Webster or something. Great, that's nice and abstract. Yes, it can help prevent naming collisions, but it doesn't allow you to learn anything at all about them (other than the URI that represents it's namespace, which in and of itself is rather useless). Doesn't at all prevent them from writing a document that says "The English Alphabet contains the following characters (case insensitive): a, b, c, d........z" and slapping it up at the URI provided for that namespace. An application could try to visit that URL and find that definition doc. Yes, we know that the namespaces rec says there is no expectation that something will be there. But heck, it can try. And what do you know, it finds something. Hey great, I have a machine readable version of that abstract collection. My machine might actually be able to do something with it now other than prevent naming collisions. Sounds great to me. Apologies to anyone who may be offended by my seemingly flippant attitude toward this, but practical applications do it for me, where abstraction often is simply a fun academic exercise. Ann (call me a Namespace Heretic) Navarro --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 16:01:49 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> References: <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830100151.041b99a0@mail.webgeek.com> At 08:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed >XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; I've got tens of thousands of constituents that do it every day. Hardly brutal. >getting >software developers to recognize all three XHTML Namespaces (even if >doing so requires only a three lines of code) will be all the more >difficult, and introduces three times the opportunity for bugs and for >interoperability problems because of omissions. If software engineers can't or won't manage three lines of code, where Jane and Joe Web Developer can write valid, spec-conforming documents, we have a *real* problem, Houston. And it's not with the spec. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 16:10:28 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: NAMESPACES: expressing commonality or distinction In-Reply-To: <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> At 10:12 AM 8/30/99 +0800, James Tauber wrote: >However, as David Megginson and Tim Bray have argued, capturing the >commonality between, say, "p" in each DTD is not just valuable, but pretty >much vital. I think that the distinctions are just as vital, from the global perspective, not just from an application developer perspective. >It seems to me that this is an argument to expand the role of namespaces (to >express commonality, not just distinction) on grounds of practicality. > >I imagine that most people would agree that: > >1. There is a difference between strict:p and transitional:p >2. The difference is small and most applications will not care about it >3. Most applications *will* care about the commonality If the qualifier were "many", rather than "most', I indeed agree (though that's splitting hairs). >Here are a couple of possibilities: > >1. PREFIX MATCHING ON NAMESPACE URIs > >Use URIs to develop a hierarchy of namespaces and then allow >underspecification for matching via prefixes. > >Use the Namespace URIs: > >http://www.w3.org/HTML/Strict/1.0 >http://www.w3.org/HTML/Transitional/1.0 > >and allow applications to match > >http://www.w3.org/HTML >PRO: uses existing namespace mechanism >CON: would require modification to XPath, etc. I like it -- XPath isn't completely done yet (though we are in last call, so it is a bit late) >2. A COMMON ATTRIBUTE THAT CAN BE MATCHED > >Have all elements in all three DTDs take a FIXED attribute. For example: > > w3c:vocab="HTML" xmlns:w3c="http://www.w3.org/" >PRO: doesn't require modification of XPath, etc. >CON: invents new mechanism I think it's realistic that we may indeed need a new mechanism. Either one seems a viable option to me. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Aug 30 16:16:07 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37CA7D2F.C43EF303@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed > XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; getting > software developers to recognize all three XHTML Namespaces (even if > doing so requires only a three lines of code) will be all the more > difficult, and introduces three times the opportunity for bugs and for > interoperability problems because of omissions. Adding three lines of code introduces the opportunity for three times the bugs in a real application? I don't buy it. Looking for "HTML 4.0 strict" OR "HTML 4.0 frameset" is no harder than looking for "UL" OR "OL", if the software is set up right. And it is *just as necessary in the general case*. There will be tons of code that needs to work the same across "similar" element types across namespaces. > This will be the third time that I've mentioned that I agree that some > sort of versioning is useful. Most processors won't care most of the > time, so the versioning shouldn't take a form that makes their life > harder, but what's wrong with a 'version' attribute in the HTML > Namespace? Processors that don't need it can ignore it, and those > that do need it can still get the information they need. Your presumption is that most processors won't need it. My presumption is that most processors WILL need it. If you don't know that you are dealing with some future version of HTML, you also don't know if your code will work or crash. In the old HTML world we were content to fudge it but in the new XHTML world we are supposed to be doing things in a robust manner. I think that we are both half right. Most software will not check the version number on the presumption that they do not need it and then they will silently fail when new versions of XHTML come around as many HTML 3.2 apps silently failed on HTML 4. That's the sociological problem. The technical problem with the version number solution is that it is HTML-specific. When I do a query to return nodes for processing, I need *in general* to know the types and versions of the element types of elements so that I know what I can expect as content and attributes. That means that I need a pervasive concept of element type versions. We could add this to XPath and XSL but eventually Occam's razor kicks in: how is the relationship between incompatible versions of HTML really different than the relationship between the relationship between Cold Fusion ML and DTML different than that between HTML 5.x and 4.x. In general, I need infrastructure that handles new versions without breaking old code. Backwards compatibility is arguably the most pervasive, persistent problem in XML system design. Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 16:30:21 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:28 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> References: <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> At 10:11 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 10:12 AM 8/30/99 +0800, James Tauber wrote: >>However, as David Megginson and Tim Bray have argued, capturing the >>commonality between, say, "p" in each DTD is not just valuable, but pretty >>much vital. > >I think that the distinctions are just as vital, from the global >perspective, not just from an application developer perspective. This may sound like a stupid question, but as I stated earlier I've never seen those distinctions as either useful or worthwhile. In what sense do you see those distinctions as vital? What do they do, apart from add varying levels of obfuscation? What is this 'global perspective', and how does it matter to developers and users? It really reads like a badly thought-out grandfather clause foolishly insterted into HTML a few versions ago. Sometimes history is an anchor dragging us down rather than a useful guide to the future. Adding namespaces to an issue that's already of uncertain value seems to generate enormous amounts of chaos. Personally, I'd have like to see namespaces used to indicate modules within XHTML - though I know that presents large problems as well - not to identify different flavors of XHTML itself. After more coffee, I'll try to come up with better questions. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 16:37:16 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: Request for Thread Fragmentation In-Reply-To: <37CA7D2F.C43EF303@prescod.net> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <199908301440.KAA17090@hesketh.net> Could folks please try to break up the threads for XHTML? It feels like we have several questions going simultaneously, and following them is hard when everything is under one banner. We've got: * Namespaces and versioning * Binding namespaces to schemas (viability issue) * Complexity of specs as anvil handed to coyote falling off large cliff * Programming with namespaces * Questions about three versions of HTML (I just split that one off) And many more. It feels like the large and violent namespaces discussion we had back in January and February is back - hold on to your cheetos! - as we discuss the first large, complex, critically important, and marquee application for namespaces. If we could break it down into smaller threads, I think we might have a better chance of following each other's arguments and coming to conclusions, at least small ones. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Mon Aug 30 16:51:09 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: Element/Attribute Distinction Considered Harmful] Message-ID: <37CA9D7B.5718D77E@freenet.co.uk> I thoroughly agree with you (Paul Prescod's proposals for attr+ were working this way), but it seems just daft to pick whether to use an attribute or an element based on whether you want to to be able to specify a default (or enumerated values) or whether you want to have order defined and use Xlink to point to it. I find I shuttle back and forth between attribute and element use madly purely because of such arbitrary choices. It would seem easy enough to add default values and even enumerated values to elements in schemas but the order question means that the & operator raises its ugly head again. (see Paul Prescod's recent proposal on this as well). Apart from these purely pragmatic differences, I think that any semantic distinction between elements and attributes (in XML rather than in specific document types) is an illusion. Philip Nye Engineering Arts ---- Original Message ------------------------------------- "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > After writing the usual 'when to use elements and when to use attributes' bit > for a new book and then spending some time close up with the XLink specs, I'm > really starting to wonder if we haven't painted ourselves into a corner by > treating leaf elements and attributes differently. > > I'm not complaining about notation - in fact, I'm quite fond of attributes as > an abbreviated form that makes clearer (at times) that given information is > perhaps annotation for another component rather than a component of its own. > > My concerns arise more with schema development and attribute usage in > situations like XLink. By using tools that require a given piece of > information to appear as an attribute, we gain the use of one set of tools > (defaulting and somewhat better restraints) at the cost of another set of > tools > (the ability to annotate that information itself, or to plain old store > multiple levels of information, plus the ever-lingering question of whether > attribute sequence matters.) > > For a simple example, I'll use the HTML 4.0 IMG element and three of its > attributes: SRC, LONGDESC, and USEMAP. All three of them take URIs for > values: > <!ATTLIST IMG > SRC CDATA #REQUIRED > LONGDESC CDATA #IMPLIED > USEMAP CDATA #IMPLIED> > > (In the HTML 4.01 spec, they use %uri; for the content model, which > resolves to > CDATA. They also use lower case.) > > All three of these attributes are locators - they carry URIs that can be used > to retrieve additional information about the image. SRC is the 'primary' > attribute, without which there isn't an image, while LONGDESC provides a link > to extra description of the image and USEMAP points to an image map resolver, > itself another set of links. > > Because XLink follows the current expectations of schemas, and because XLink > relies on the element/attribute distinction for its understanding of which > containers hold link-relevant information, XLink cannot support this use case > directly. _If_ IMG stored SRC, LONGDESC, and USEMAP as child elements, XLink > could support this easily. However, XLink provides no support for 'extended > links' where all the linking information is presented as attributes rather > than > child elements. In the current usage of XML and schemas, it has no formal > vocabulary available to it that lets it handle this case. > > Another case that's generated some (reasonably violent) comment is the use of > the style attribute in HTML for use with CSS. In HTML, you can do inline > styling by attaching a style attribute to the element to be styled. That > single attribute may hold hundreds of different style properties, using a > commonly understood convention. For example, > > <P style="font-size:18pt; font-weight:bold; color:42426F; > font-family:sans-serif">This is my crazy paragraph!</P> > > The style attribute here stores four name-value pairs, violating quite > thoroughly the principle that an attribute represents a single value and > irritating some folks enormously. The same information could have been > represented as: > > <P> > <style font-size="18pt" font-weight="bold" color="42426F" > font-family="sans-serif" />This is my crazy paragraph!</P> > > or even: > <P> > <style> > <font-size>18pt</font-size> > <font-weight>bold</font-weight> > <color>42426F</color> > <font-family>sans-serif</font-family> > </style> > This is my crazy paragraph!</P> > > You get the idea... > > It seems like child elements and attributes are both basically name-value > pairs. In the case of child elements, we treat order as important, while in > the case of attributes it's considered unclear. > > Apart from being the status quo, does this approach really make sense? Am I > the only one wondering if maybe it's time to start breaking down this > distinction - at least within schemas - to give XML some of the flexibility > the > current system denies? (RDF certainly took that approach, but wrapped it in > lots of alien - to XML - concepts that I think obscured its value.) It's > taken > me a long time to reach these conclusions - until recently, I really liked > that > status quo, though without much good cause. > > I'd love to hear people's opinions on this subject, if indeed anyone else > considers it worth addressing. It has immediate impact on developments like > schemas, as well as significant implications for XLink and potentially CSS > style application. > > Simon St.Laurent > XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) > Building XML Applications > Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical > Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies > http://www.simonstl.com > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 17:00:17 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> At 10:36 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 10:11 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >>At 10:12 AM 8/30/99 +0800, James Tauber wrote: >>>However, as David Megginson and Tim Bray have argued, capturing the >>>commonality between, say, "p" in each DTD is not just valuable, but pretty >>>much vital. >> >>I think that the distinctions are just as vital, from the global >>perspective, not just from an application developer perspective. > >This may sound like a stupid question, but as I stated earlier I've never >seen those distinctions as either useful or worthwhile. Well, to be honest, I've never really bought the argument that applications are only interested in the commonality. Perhaps we need to define what type of application each speaker is referring to. If I'm going to write an XHTML editor (that's worth anything as an *xhtml editor* vs. just a plain text editor), I surely want to know whether the differences in what can occur in a <p> in strict vs. transitional. If my application doesn't know these differences, it can't provide appropriate options or indicate errors appropriately. If I'm writing an application that will parse XHTML documents, and apparently I only care that <p> is a structural container, then I suppose I don't care about the differences -- but even that reasoning escapes me, in that if I find <p align=center> when we're purporting to be XHTML 1.0 Strict, then there's a problem. If you're only writing an app that cares about well-formedness, then I suppose you're ok. Well-formedness in and of itself is great, but validation requires considerable more detail. I want both my editors and processors to be aware of the constraints required when validating. >It really reads like a badly thought-out grandfather clause foolishly >insterted into HTML a few versions ago. Sometimes history is an anchor >dragging us down rather than a useful guide to the future. What reads that way? >Adding namespaces to an issue that's already of uncertain value seems to >generate enormous amounts of chaos. Personally, I'd have like to see >namespaces used to indicate modules within XHTML - though I know that >presents large problems as well - not to identify different flavors of >XHTML itself. Modularization brings it's own namespace issues to the table. More on that when the next draft becomes public. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 17:13:20 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> At 11:01 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >If I'm going to write an XHTML editor (that's worth anything as an *xhtml >editor* vs. just a plain text editor), I surely want to know whether the >differences in what can occur in a <p> in strict vs. transitional. If my >application doesn't know these differences, it can't provide appropriate >options or indicate errors appropriately. It seems like DOCTYPE and the three DTDs should handle this without any problem. I can't figure out why you'd want to bring namespaces into this. I could write an editor that recognized the namespace and did processing based on the namespace, but I think DOCTYPE would be simpler. I don't think namespaces have to do this work. (Of course, I'd be delighted to see something more powerful than DOCTYPE, and have considered using namespaces to support it. That doesn't seem to be what we're talking about here, though.) >If I'm writing an application that will parse XHTML documents, and >apparently I only care that <p> is a structural container, then I suppose I >don't care about the differences -- but even that reasoning escapes me, in >that if I find <p align=center> when we're purporting to be XHTML 1.0 >Strict, then there's a problem. If you're only writing an app that cares >about well-formedness, then I suppose you're ok. Again, the DOCTYPE declaration already takes care of this, and there shouldn't be any need to use namespaces in conjunction with this processing. I could write the logic into the app using namespaces, but I could just use the DTD to supply that logic instead. Why duplicate DOCTYPE with namespace declarations? >Well-formedness in and of itself is great, but validation requires >considerable more detail. Which is what DOCTYPE is for. (Not to mention that namespaces and validation is an unstable combination.) >I want both my editors and processors to be aware of the constraints >required when validating. So do I - but I don't think this requires namespaces. >>It really reads like a badly thought-out grandfather clause foolishly >>insterted into HTML a few versions ago. Sometimes history is an anchor >>dragging us down rather than a useful guide to the future. > >What reads that way? The whole concept of three DTDs for what is supposedly a single spec. It's nice to leave room for older concepts, but the price of three DTDs seems high. If we're going to have three, why not five? Why not ten? (John Cowan's got an IBTWSH version of HTML I've applied quite successfully, ignoring the W3C recs altogether.) Maybe it's time to reexamine the valid/not-valid distinction we get out of the XML 1.0 spec and start looking at more sophisticated 'weak validation' like Rick Jelliffe's discussed. >>Adding namespaces to an issue that's already of uncertain value seems to >>generate enormous amounts of chaos. Personally, I'd have like to see >>namespaces used to indicate modules within XHTML - though I know that >>presents large problems as well - not to identify different flavors of >>XHTML itself. > >Modularization brings it's own namespace issues to the table. More on that >when the next draft becomes public. At least that sounds promising! Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Aug 30 17:15:59 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > If I'm going to write an XHTML editor (that's worth anything as an > *xhtml editor* vs. just a plain text editor), I surely want to know > whether the differences in what can occur in a <p> in strict > vs. transitional. If my application doesn't know these differences, > it can't provide appropriate options or indicate errors > appropriately. I used the PSGML editor to create dozens of XHTML documents that conformed to the last working draft, and even though there was just one XHTML Namespace in that draft, my editor still would not let me insert a <font> element in a strict-flavoured document. That's why you have a DTD -- the qualified names identify what things are (an HTML paragraph), and the DTD or other schema identifies how things are to be arranged. You can already use the XHTML DTDs with XML editors like PSGML, XMetaL, and WordPerfect just fine. We need to hear another argument. > If I'm writing an application that will parse XHTML documents, and > apparently I only care that <p> is a structural container, then I > suppose I don't care about the differences -- but even that > reasoning escapes me, in that if I find <p align=center> when we're > purporting to be XHTML 1.0 Strict, then there's a problem. Sure -- that's why you have a DOCTYPE declaration at the top, so that validating processors can check the HTML against a DTD. > Modularization brings it's own namespace issues to the table. More on that > when the next draft becomes public. That's an even worse problem coming up -- three namespaces is already bad enough. By the way, with SAX, XSL, DOM, or any other existing infrastructure, three Namespaces does not mean three extra lines of code; it means triple the code for every part that deals with elements or attributes (three times as many XSL patterns, for example, not just three more patterns). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon Aug 30 17:18:48 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BBFE0C@cc20exch2.mobility.com> > From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] > > For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed > Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > > Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining > *three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and > frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. I have another proposal, which is similar to Mr. Megginson's html:version attribute: why not use processing instructions? I know, a lot of people seem to think processing instructions are inherently *bad*, but this may be a case where they are indeed justifiable. It seems that there are a common set of XHTML tags amongst all three flavours of XHTML, but that those tags may be interpreted differently by the *application*, depending on if the application is set to strict, or loose, or whatever. So why not say that "a P is a paragraph is a P", but if you want that "P" to be treated differently, then tell the application to do so? Remember that the although the purpose of XML was to define and share information for any purpose, HTML had the stricter design goal of simply conveying information to a human. (Usually visually, through a web browser of some sort, although there are also applications which can do things like convey the information audibly to the visually impaired, etc.) So we have the case here where the HTML tags mean the same thing across all three flavours, but may be interpreted differently by the application, to be displayed differently, or to give different audible information, etc. Are there cases in XHTML 1.0 where there is a <loose:p/> which *means* something different than a <strict:p/>, or are they just *treated differently by the application*? I would rather see a namespace which specifies that "this is XHTML", so that an XML processor could just hand the XML off to an XHTML processor; that processor could then see the <?xhtml version="strict"?> and treat the XHTML accordingly. (The W3C working group could even go so far as to specify the default, if that <?html?> processing instruction isn't included, or make it mandatory.) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From huisien at pl.jaring.my Mon Aug 30 17:29:50 1999 From: huisien at pl.jaring.my (huisien) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: Question regarding XML for EDI Message-ID: <001801bef2fc$41e10960$8c728ea1@winner> Hi, I am actually developing a computerised online payment system ( something like GIRO). In my system, I allow customer to pay their bills ( for example Insurance bill, water bill, electricity bill and etc) through GIRO. Therefore, I need to read from the database of all the service providers and the data they provided are in different format. Therefore, what I get from my research is that I can use EDI to format all the data from different service providers. I choose XML as a language for developing EDI. But, I will be using Visual Basic to write my application with embedded SQL statement. So, how can I integrate XML into my system. I heard that XML can only be integrated with JAVA. Is that really so? Thank you for your precious information. I really hope that someone can actually answer my question. Thank YOU. from, JUNE -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990830/6c580cd7/attachment.htm From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 17:37:12 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> References: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> At 11:18 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 11:01 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >>If I'm going to write an XHTML editor (that's worth anything as an *xhtml >>editor* vs. just a plain text editor), I surely want to know whether the >>differences in what can occur in a <p> in strict vs. transitional. If my >>application doesn't know these differences, it can't provide appropriate >>options or indicate errors appropriately. > >It seems like DOCTYPE and the three DTDs should handle this without any >problem. I can't figure out why you'd want to bring namespaces into this. >I could write an editor that recognized the namespace and did processing >based on the namespace, but I think DOCTYPE would be simpler. I don't >think namespaces have to do this work. Well, that really points out a weakness in namespaces, doesn't it? Everything must now have a namespace if it's to be compliant in XML-land. Therefore XHTML has to have (a) namespace(s). Boom. We have to deal with them. >So do I - but I don't think this requires namespaces. Me neither, but apparently they make the world go around these days. >Maybe it's time to reexamine the valid/not-valid distinction we get out of >the XML 1.0 spec and start looking at more sophisticated 'weak validation' >like Rick Jelliffe's discussed. XHTML 1.0 is the very first step, taking the 3 versions we had in HTML 4.0 and transforming them into the XML world. Nothing in this says that work immediately after XHTML 1.0 will have all three. 'weak validation' or 'weak conformance' has been discussed at length, and found to be a very, very bad idea. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 17:39:46 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830113837.047cd510@mail.webgeek.com> At 11:17 AM 8/30/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > If I'm going to write an XHTML editor (that's worth anything as an > > *xhtml editor* vs. just a plain text editor), I surely want to know > > whether the differences in what can occur in a <p> in strict > > vs. transitional. If my application doesn't know these differences, > > it can't provide appropriate options or indicate errors > > appropriately. > >I used the PSGML editor to create dozens of XHTML documents that >conformed to the last working draft, and even though there was just >one XHTML Namespace in that draft, my editor still would not let me >insert a <font> element in a strict-flavoured document. So we don't have a problem, do we? Did it *fail* when you had three namespaces? Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 30 17:43:13 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: [Fwd: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late)] Message-ID: <19990830154558.25874.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Why everyone is sending mails to the whole list!! We don't have gigabytes in your mailbox??!!$#$# --- Ann Navarro <ann@webgeek.com> wrote: > At 06:41 PM 8/29/99 +0100, W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > > > > No, we've not confused them. We happen to have > three 'flavors' of XHTML 1.0 > > > (the first deliverable from the XHTML project, > not the end sum of our > > > work), that essentially map to the three flavors > of HTML 4.0. Each of them > > > was assigned a namespace that corresponds in > title to the three flavor > > > names. We do not mistakenly confuse their DTDs > for their namespaces. (nor > > > are we limiting XHTML to the use of DTDs, > Schemas, as has been pointed out, > > > 'isn't soup yet') > > > >But: name spaces do not define anything. Therefore, > a namespace cannot > >be the *definition* of what these three flavors > are. > > > I didn't say they did define anything. I said they > each have a namespace. > Period. They each have a DTD. Period. > > They happen to share a string for a portion of their > titles. > > That does not say "the namespace defines the > flavors". > > Ann > > > > > > > > > --- > Ann Navarro > Author: Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials > Buy it Online! http://www.webgeek.com/about.html > Owner, WebGeek Communications > http://www.webgeek.com > Vice President, HTML Writers Guild > http://www.hwg.org > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 17:50:01 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: weak validation In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <199908301552.LAA20204@hesketh.net> At 11:38 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote (Re: why distinctions within XHTML?): >At 11:18 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>Maybe it's time to reexamine the valid/not-valid distinction we get out of >>the XML 1.0 spec and start looking at more sophisticated 'weak validation' >>like Rick Jelliffe's discussed. > >'weak validation' or 'weak conformance' has been discussed at length, and >found to be a very, very bad idea. I find answers like this hazardous. 'has been discussed at length' by who? The usual band of folks who who have used SGML for the decade or more? Or by developers looking for a way to use schemas without binding themselves into a straitjacket? Probably the best thing I got out of the Montreal XML Developer Days conference this year was that binding ourselves into straitjackets isn't always the right idea, even if tradition and perhaps intuition suggest otherwise. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 17:49:55 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <199908301552.LAA20201@hesketh.net> At 11:38 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 11:18 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>It seems like DOCTYPE and the three DTDs should handle this without any >>problem. I can't figure out why you'd want to bring namespaces into this. >>I could write an editor that recognized the namespace and did processing >>based on the namespace, but I think DOCTYPE would be simpler. I don't >>think namespaces have to do this work. > >Well, that really points out a weakness in namespaces, doesn't it? >Everything must now have a namespace if it's to be compliant in XML-land. >Therefore XHTML has to have (a) namespace(s). > >Boom. We have to deal with them. I'm glad that XHTML is trying to use namespaces. I don't think this justifies the move to three namespaces, however. >>So do I - but I don't think this requires namespaces. > >Me neither, but apparently they make the world go around these days. I didn't think we were discussing fashion here - this doesn't seem like enough justification to use namespaces in this way. >XHTML 1.0 is the very first step, taking the 3 versions we had in HTML 4.0 >and transforming them into the XML world. That's fine and good and conservative, however ridiculous I may find three versions overall. That doesn't mean we have to compound the existence of three different DTDs with three different namespaces. >Nothing in this says that work immediately after XHTML 1.0 will have all >three. Good. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 18:09:17 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: weak validation In-Reply-To: <199908301552.LAA20204@hesketh.net> References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> At 11:55 AM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>'weak validation' or 'weak conformance' has been discussed at length, and >>found to be a very, very bad idea. > >I find answers like this hazardous. 'has been discussed at length' by who? > The usual band of folks who who have used SGML for the decade or more? Or >by developers looking for a way to use schemas without binding themselves >into a straitjacket? Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't confidential discussions in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more forthcoming, but as I said earlier, I tend to err on the side of caution there. As for XHTML 1.0 -- being a reformulation of HTML 4.0 into XML, the black and white valid or not stance remained. As to future work.....I can only comment on public drafts. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Mon Aug 30 19:00:20 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F29@sohos002.ied-support.net> Tim Bray wrote: > Ann Navarro wrote: > > But since the purpose of names is an abstract function > > designed to prevent collisions in naming, it does not > > necessarily follow that having three names is "bad" even > > if it does "surprise". > > Except for, 99.99999% of programmers WANT "strict" <h2> and > "transitional" <h2> to collide. If most people who processed > HTML were engaged in DTD-sensitive validation, the multiple > namespaces would have been a good idea. Except for almost nobody > is, so they're a bad idea. -Tim So why then would they bother using XHTML? Surely the whole point of XHTML is to allow the processing of existing HTML using XML techniques. Beyond that I can't see much use for it in its current incarnation. For example, you can't embed data from other namespaces without dropping the reference to the DTD (this is how the MathML example in the proposal works, section 3.1.2), but that is a limitation of DTDs, not XHTML. When XML Schemas get really moving then I would hope that we would end up with a very modular XHTML, with modules for tables, modules for frames, and so on. Then I could embed a table in another document, for example, without having to have HEAD/TITLE/BODY. And I could pick just the bits of XHTML I wanted for a particular display device, attaching references to schemas at key nodes in the document. I think a number of contributors have very patiently explained that this is only XHTML 1.0. It handles the ability to process HTML as if it were XML, and for that we should be grateful. I'm using that feature quite a lot. Regards, Mark Birbeck xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Mon Aug 30 19:00:30 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-support.net> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > It seems like DOCTYPE and the three DTDs should handle this > without any problem. I can't figure out why you'd want to bring > namespaces into this. I could write an editor that recognized the > namespace and did processing based on the namespace, but I think > DOCTYPE would be simpler. I don't think namespaces have to do > this work. But what if you wanted to write an editor that left MathML alone, or passed the MathML parts on to another application or plug-in? You'd need to use XML Schemas because DTDs couldn't handle that (your XHTML doc has just failed if it has MathML in it!) and you'll need a namespace for that (under current proposals). So, if you accept that you need three DTDs, then to get into the world of XML Schemas (or whatever it ends up being) you need three namespaces. Regards, Mark Birbeck xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 19:17:02 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) In-Reply-To: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F29@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830131722.04820a00@mail.webgeek.com> At 05:49 PM 8/30/99 +0100, Mark Birbeck wrote: >Surely the whole point of XHTML is to allow the processing of existing >HTML using XML techniques. Yes!! >Beyond that I can't see much use for it in >its current incarnation. For example, you can't embed data from other >namespaces without dropping the reference to the DTD (this is how the >MathML example in the proposal works, section 3.1.2), but that is a >limitation of DTDs, not XHTML. Exactly. This is step 1. The real exciting stuff is coming, this just gets us into the right syntatical mind-set. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 19:25:22 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> At 05:57 PM 8/30/99 +0100, Mark Bireck wrote: >But what if you wanted to write an editor that left MathML alone, or >passed the MathML parts on to another application or plug-in? You'd need >to use XML Schemas because DTDs couldn't handle that (your XHTML doc has >just failed if it has MathML in it!) and you'll need a namespace for >that (under current proposals). So, if you accept that you need three >DTDs, then to get into the world of XML Schemas (or whatever it ends up >being) you need three namespaces. If it was clear that XML schemas would be using such a mechanism to connect schema information to documents, I'd agree with this argument, though it doesn't justify 3 DTDs in the first place. However, so far as I know, no such suggestion has been made in any official way. The namespaces remain only identifiers, not connectors to a particular schema. The XHTML PR doesn't even include the word 'schema', period. (Surprising but true!) On top of which, it isn't clear yet how XHTML will combine with other schemas, like MathML - which I'd very much like to see explicitly stated. Section 3.1.2 states: >The XHTML 1.0 namespace may be used with other XML namespaces as >per [XMLNAMES], although such documents are not strictly conforming >XHTML 1.0 documents as defined above. Future work by W3C will address >ways to specify conformance for documents involving multiple namespaces. I don't think we've gotten to the point where we have a clear understanding of the relationship between namespaces and processing, which seems to have been a deliberate decision in the creation of XML Namespaces. Should the W3C develop such an understanding (and publish it), we might then have grounds for a rational decision. Instead, complexity seems to get squared with every new conversation, as new possibilities and different interpretations emerged. 3 namespaces to me looks like 9 times the complexity overall, but I'll happily admit that's just a gut feeling. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 19:39:09 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> References: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> At 01:31 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: > The XHTML PR >doesn't even include the word 'schema', period. (Surprising but true!) Not surprising at all, actually. At the risk of sounding like a broken record -- this is phase 1 -- reformulating existing HTML 4.0(1), which is pre-schemas, into XML. >On top of which, it isn't clear yet how XHTML will combine with other >schemas, like MathML - which I'd very much like to see explicitly stated. >Section 3.1.2 states: > >>The XHTML 1.0 namespace may be used with other XML namespaces as >>per [XMLNAMES], although such documents are not strictly conforming >>XHTML 1.0 documents as defined above. Future work by W3C will address >>ways to specify conformance for documents involving multiple namespaces. It states we're working on it, and indeed we are. Watch the drafts, they will answer many questions. It's important that people do read these with sufficent attention to detail to understand that this is NOT the end of development of XHTML, and that it won't solve all HTML to XML issues. It is what it says it is, bringing one into the other. Next we expand and improve. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 19:58:45 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <199908301801.OAA26560@hesketh.net> At 01:40 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 01:31 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >It states we're working on it, and indeed we are. Watch the drafts, they >will answer many questions. > >It's important that people do read these with sufficent attention to detail >to understand that this is NOT the end of development of XHTML, and that it >won't solve all HTML to XML issues. It is what it says it is, bringing one >into the other. Next we expand and improve. It's also important that people read these drafts critically, as mistakes made at this point in the development of XHTML may well linger into later projects based on this foundation, potentially snarling the many good things XHTML promises. I would argue that the three varieties of HTML introduced in earlier versions of HTML are exactly such a snarl, and demonstrate how hard it is to get rid of such things once we've grown comfortable with them. Assuming that the WG has a clear, though unstated, roadmap for integrating its usage of namespaces with future XML schema developments seems like a very bad idea indeed. It doesn't seem reasonable to build a foundation riddled with gaps like these and then assume that future development will clean them up. It seems like it might be smarter to ask what the foundation itself must provide, so that we can build on it safely. Unfortunately, that doesn't appear to be what the project is doing, though in many ways that is how it has been billed to the public. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Aug 30 20:20:54 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <199908301801.OAA26560@hesketh.net> References: <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990830141430.04694f00@mail.webgeek.com> At 02:05 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >Assuming that the WG has a clear, though unstated, roadmap for integrating >its usage of namespaces with future XML schema developments seems like a >very bad idea indeed. Wait a minute, nobody has said that. How does the HTML WG have the power to "integrate" it's uage of namespaces with someone else's work product? This is where assumptions lead to alot of misinformation and assertions that the sky is falling. We can certainly sit here and poke sticks at the process, but it's what we have to work with right now. Within this process, it is a given that non-participants and non-member-employee individuals won't have direct access to the drafts that haven't yet been made public. I don't think we're really here to argue the appropriateness of that right now. But that lag in information dissemination shouldn't be a platform for leaps in assumption either. The people working on these things aren't stupid -- nor are they unaware of conversations like this one, in this forum and in many others. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 21:21:41 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830141430.04694f00@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301801.OAA26560@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <199908301924.PAA31715@hesketh.net> At 02:21 PM 8/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 02:05 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>Assuming that the WG has a clear, though unstated, roadmap for integrating >>its usage of namespaces with future XML schema developments seems like a >>very bad idea indeed. > >Wait a minute, nobody has said that. How does the HTML WG have the power to >"integrate" it's uage of namespaces with someone else's work product? Mark was suggesting earlier that those namespaces would provide information connected to schemas. This does not appear to be a good assumption, which is most of what I was saying. However, it doesn't seem like the HTML WG has really explained why it wants three namespaces, how (if) those namespaces should be used in conjunction with validation, and what possible value those namespaces might provide (beyond the DOCTYPE declaration) in the future. It does seem like it would be reasonable for the HTML WG to integrate its product with the Namespaces in XML recommendation by providing an explicit statement of how it plans to use namespaces and what the reasoning behind that usage of namespaces looks like. There is no explanation of that reasoning in the present draft - just an announcement of three namespaces (3.1.1-3) and a brief example of non-conformant integration with MathML (3.1.2). Also, the Future Directions area (section 6) would be a good place to discuss plans for working with the schema WG, if indeed there are such plans. Document profiling is a tool that would be useful anywhere in XML; it doesn't seem like these directions are expliciting limited to work that only relies on the HTML WG itself. >This is where assumptions lead to alot of misinformation and assertions >that the sky is falling. The sky isn't falling - it's just that it's hard to tell (from out here) whether the sky is clear or cloudy, and whether it's raining or snowing. It's not clear on what grounds namespaces are being assigned or how they should be used. Given that lack of information, it seems reasonable to proceed cautiously - and critically. >We can certainly sit here and poke sticks at the process, but it's what we >have to work with right now. Within this process, it is a given that >non-participants and non-member-employee individuals won't have direct >access to the drafts that haven't yet been made public. I don't think we're >really here to argue the appropriateness of that right now. The W3C's closed process is unfortunate. However, that doesn't mean that outsiders should read drafts under the assumption that 'future drafts will fix everything', which appeared to be the drift of your earlier comments. If the W3C wants meaningful public comments, it has to be prepared to deal with comments from those of use who don't have access the full set of background information locked away in members-only areas. Saying 'trust us' isn't enough. It requires explanation of underlying assumptions, at least. It would also help to identify where these outside comments should go, as do most of the XML drafts... >But that lag in information dissemination shouldn't be a platform for leaps >in assumption either. The people working on these things aren't stupid -- >nor are they unaware of conversations like this one, in this forum and in >many others. Indeed - they shouldn't be a platform for any assumptions, as stated above, including assumptions of magical integration with future schemas or a better world coming with the next revisions. Now I have to go back and forward a bunch of these messages to the official W3C areas... hopefully we've beaten this issue enough already. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Aug 30 22:56:36 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:29 2004 Subject: Civilian's Guide to the W3C Message-ID: <199908302059.QAA05245@hesketh.net> I've begun work on a 'Civilian's Guide to the W3C'. (After the Montreal conference, I'd originally thought of calling it a "non-combatant's guide", but that seemed too extreme. It may become an outsider's guide.) I would love to hear from people who are affiliated with and unaffiliated with the W3C about the start I've got up at: http://www.simonstl.com/articles/civilw3c.htm This is definitely a first draft. Suggestions and especially contributions are welcome; I hope to piece it together over the next month or so. In particular, I'd like to know what questions non-members have about the W3C; I'd like to make sure I address as many as possible. Thanks, Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Mon Aug 30 23:25:06 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2D@sohos002.ied-support.net> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > Mark was suggesting earlier that those namespaces would > provide information connected to schemas. This does not > appear to be a good assumption, which is most of what I was > saying. Simon - as you are, I am "outside looking in", and you're right it can be frustrating. However, my reason for making this assumption stems from the following flow: 1. The biggest barrier to the uptake of XML will not be the popularity or competence of W3C members (just kidding) but the ability to convert legacy data. 2. The easiest way to handle legacy data is to convert it to some simple XML, and then take advantage of XML techniques to make it 'nicer'. 3. Most legacy data either exists in, or can be easily converted to, HTML. (It sits behind web servers.) 4. The quickest initial transformation then, is to get HTML into an XML format that looks pretty much like HTML. 5. This can then be tidied up into more meaningful tagged data (one of the goals of XML lest we forget!). 6. There are three variants of HTML 4.0 so we need three variants of 'HTML 4.0 as XML' (let's call it XHTML). 7. XHTML will be around for a little while in these variants as browsers catch up with this evolution. 8. Eventually these variants will give way to a number of modules that handle the different features of HTML, such as a code module, a table module, an image module, and so on. 9. Once 'pure' XML documents are being sent to browsers then we will want to mix and match other XML data with the display information that is XHTML. This may mean putting XHTML inside other documents, or other documents inside XHTML. 10. Current DTDs cannot handle this, but XML Schema type solutions will be able to. 11. In the short-term we therefore need a schema and a DTD for each variant of XHTML. 12. But in the long run we will have schemas for each module. Note that unless you are mixing documents you do not need to use XHTML anyway, unless you plan to store the document in a system that requires the document to be validated. You can *produce* XHTML from your XSL transformations, but who is going to check it? No current browser is. VALIDITY TODAY So for me, the validity issue *for today* comes when I want to take legacy data and make it more meaningful (as per point 5, above). Say I have a web page from a client's intranet that has a list of all their offices, and I want to convert that to XML. For example, I want to go from: <TABLE> <TR><TD>Office 1</TD><TD>London</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Office 2</TD><TD>Birmingham</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Office 3</TD><TD>Glasgow</TD></TR> </TABLE> to: <Offices> <Office> <Name>Office 1</Name> <City>London</City> </Office> <Office> <Name>Office 2</Name> <City>Birmingham</City> </Office> <Office> <Name>Office 3</Name> <City>Glasgow</City> </Office> </Offices> without using Notepad. The HTML file has to be converted to XHTML, validated and then transformed. Each of the following will display in IE and Netscape, but would break my final transformation: <TABLE> <TR><TD>Office 1<TD>London <TR><TD>Office 2<TD>Birmingham <TR><TD>Office 3<TD>Glasgow </TABLE> <TABLE> <TR><TD ALIGN=LEFT>Office 1</TD><TD>London</TD></TR> <TR><TD ALIGN="LEFT">Office 2</TD><TD>Birmingham</TD></TR> <TR><TD>Office 3</TD><TD>Glasgow</TD></TR> </TABLE> but if you automate the process of converting to XHTML, it will map to a known 'standard' file. VALIDITY TOMORROW The validity issue *for tomorrow* is the mixing of mark-up from different XML-based languages within one document, and still being able to check that all is OK. Best regards, Mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Aug 31 00:47:14 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E54016CCBF@master.design-intelligence.com> I pretty much second what Elliot has said on this subject. Namespaces basically do nothing but sow confusion, as noted in previous message threads about namespaces and validation. As a namespace declaration is a URI and doesn't have the option of a URL, there is no way for it refer to a DTD or schema defintion. So, the namespace prefix merely differentiates 2 names foo:bar and zoo:bar. But, foo:bar and zoo:bar may be the same if the URI's are the same. It is not enough to compare prefixes, you must compare URIs. And the idea of equivalent URIs would render even that comparision inaccurate. So the best you can say is that foo:bar and foo:bar refer to the same element and foo:bar and zoo:bar may refer to different elements. But, you can't determine what the valid members of foo or zoo are. Adding validation really makes it messy. If the document using the DTD uses namespace prefixes, then the DTD must use the same namespace prefixes (foo:bar is not the same as bar). There are no declarations for a DTD to define a default namespace. So, for validation, standard prefixes must be established for namespaces (the document and DTD must use same prefixes). Of course the prefixes could collide and then we're back in the same boat as before. I truly question the value of namespaces without association with some DTD or schema. They purport to resolve ambiguity, but only do it syntically - there is no identification of what each element is a member of. The problem is punted off to the application, which somehow must assign meaning to the URIs. In doing so, validation is thrown to the wind - we might as well redefine XML to only parse well-formed documents and toss the DTD baggage. Through associating a URI with a schema or DTD such identication can be added. So why not do it as a optional parameter, add declaration of default namespaces to DTDs/Schemas, and get it done with? (I know DTDs just provide a content syntax and not a full semantic meaning, but at least syntactic validity can be performed. I can tell if an element is not part of a DTD (unless it makes use of ANY of course)) All right, a new namespace firestorm begins ;) Marc B. McDonald Principal Software Scientist <<...>> Design Intelligence, Inc. 1111 Third Avenue, Suite 1500 Seattle, WA 98101 marc.mcdonald@design-intelligence.com Ph: 206.343-7797 Fax: 206.343.7750 http://www.design-intelligence.com > ---------- > From: W. Eliot Kimber[SMTP:eliot@isogen.com] > Sent: Sunday, August 29, 1999 10:46 AM > To: xml-dev > Subject: Re: Namespace handling in XML Processors > > schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > > > Speaking of namespaces, > > > > It's very confusing as to what is regarded as correct behavior by XML > > processors when encountering a document with namespaces. > > All the standard seems to do is to allow use of the same element names > > without conflict. > > No--it allows you to construct long, guaranteed unique element type > names where part of the name (the base bit) is obviously syntactically > separated from the first bit that guarantees uniqueness. But the element > type name is the full-qualified name. Therefore, there is no general > sense in which to names that happen to have the same base part are the > "same", any more than two machines named "spock" from different IP > domains are the "same". They are just different names. > > > So two questions: > > > > 1) If an XML processor was semantically interpreting an XML document but > > encounters an unknown namespace, is it mandated to ignore all elements > and > > attributes in that namespace? I thought this was the case, but after > > re-reading the standard I see it's not defined. If this is not > > standardized, can anyone say what is currently the common practice? > > No processing can or should be mandidated by any > > > 2) How should a validating XML parser deal with namespaces? This > doesn't > > seem to be defined very clearly. I can see that we can include > namespace > > declarations in the DTD external and internal subsets, so I guess that > if > > I have a document mixing two namespaces I would have the external DTD > > point to the one for the "primary" namespace and then use the internal > > subset to override the external DTD to provide for insertion of elements > > and attributes using the second namespace. But this can rapidly get out > > of hand with mixing of even more namespaces. Is there any better > > mechanism for this, or are any planned? > > You create a set of declarations where the namespace *prefixes* are part > of the element type declarations. That's the only way to do it because > XML 1.0 validation is defined purely in terms of names as declared in > element type and attribute list declarations. > > Cheers, > > E. > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Tue Aug 31 01:27:05 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Status of Topic Map standard (ISO/IEC 13250)? In-Reply-To: <000001bef2a3$c0b91a60$e80bfea9@w21tp> (donpark@docuverse.com) References: <000001bef2a3$c0b91a60$e80bfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <199908302240.RAA01773@bruno.techno.com> [Don Park:] > Subject: Re: Status of Topic Map standard (ISO/IEC 13250)? > What is its current status? I think we're waiting for ISO to publish it officially. In the meantime, an unofficial HTML copy is at http://www.ornl.gov/sgml/sc34/document/0058.htm -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 fax +1 972 994 0087 pager (150 characters max): srn-page@techno.com 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at docuverse.com Tue Aug 31 01:46:23 1999 From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Another look at namespaces In-Reply-To: <37CA7941.BCF93A54@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000801bef342$377295c0$6cc9fea9@w21tp> Paul, >If we develop this mechanism now then the first wave of XHTML software >will be automatically ready for XHTML 2.0 (not to mention >e-commerce). I >can understand the wish to delay the problem but it just means that we >cause a train wreck later on. I am deathly afraid, however, that if we >set a precedent of pretending that these three variants are "one >language" we will continue down that path as we develop more and more >incompatible new versions. I respect your wisdom, but: I feel that planning too far out is just as dangerous as being too short-sighted. Can you provide us with some examples of the kind of problems that might necessitate incompatible changes to XHTML? Why penalize the masses with the some unforseeable need? I also feel that if future versions of XHTML are incompatible with XHTML 1.0 then they should not be called XHTML in the first place. Why confuse the masses by treating incompatible standards as one? Best, Don Park - mailto:donpark@docuverse.com Docuverse - http://www.docuverse.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On >Behalf Of >Paul Prescod >Sent: Monday, August 30, 1999 5:30 AM >To: xml-dev >Subject: Another look at namespaces > > >There are two separate issues here. > >#1. In 1999 XHTML can either have three namespaces or one. If it has >three then there will be a one-to-one relationship between namespaces >and grammars so that a programmer can know the grammar of the input >data. Programmers that want to treat the three as one will >have to do so >by issuing some command to their namespace processor or (better) by >usuing a namespace processor that recognizes an embedded instruction. > >Either way works because programmers know today what to expect and can >write their code accordingly. Hell, we could have one namespace per >element type or one namespace for all W3C specifications and you could >still write code that works. > >I think that people are really concerned more about the precedent than >today's issue. > >#2. In 2000, 2001, 2002, etc. there will be new versions of XHTML. Some >(probably all) of these will be backwards incompatible as every version >of HTML has been backwards incompatible: a document conforming to the >new vocabular/grammar can break code expecting the old >vocabulary/grammar. > >It is *vital* that a) there be a way to announce this >backwards-incompatibility and b) there be an infrastructure that allows >a mapping from new to old. The namespace is the obvious way to do the >former. We have no good mechanism for the latter. > >As I've said, this is also necessary for e-commerce and every other XML >application. > > > Paul Prescod > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tyler at infinet.com Tue Aug 31 02:15:25 1999 From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E54016CCBF@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <37CB1EFA.5FCFD193@infinet.com> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > I pretty much second what Elliot has said on this subject. Namespaces > basically do nothing but sow confusion, as noted in previous message threads > about namespaces and validation. [Much that has all ready been said and is completely true deleted] > All right, a new namespace firestorm begins ;) I gave up on the namespace issue a long time ago. Having unique element names when combining XML content from different sources is a problem that needs to be addressed and I think the knee-jerk response to solving that problem was done the the "Namespaces in XML" recommendation. Well like many others working with XML I have ignored "Namespaces in XML" as much as I can. The namespaces problem of combining element content from different sources I have solved at the API/Software level instead of at the Parser/Validation level. If your software is complicated enough to have to deal with content from a variety of sources, then the odds are you will need to handle the content from each source in a special way. For example, if you have some sort of content that deals with the RealNetworks namespace (if they even have one) the odds are the content will need to be handled much differently and with different API's than content that belongs to the Microsoft namespace. The difficulty of course is gluing all of this together into something manageable and that works. Using "Namespaces in XML" will only complicate this challenge. Well anyways, wasting any more time on this pointless debate I think would be a waste of your time and everyone elses who see the obvious flaws of "Namespaces in XML" for non-trivial software. I would suggest dealing with namespaces at the software level in your application and not worry about "Namespaces in XML" ever becoming something necessary or even usable for most software applications that deal with XML (-: xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Tue Aug 31 03:25:01 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Self interest is the dominant interest in pushing complexity - creates barriers to entry (3 namespaces in XHTML) References: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2D@sohos002.ied-support.net> Message-ID: <000901bef34f$66fd6100$334ffea9@litebook> My observation:- There is a lot of self interest running in this World Wide Web Consortium. (just look at membership fees) Staying out in front requires the resources and position to up the barriers of entry for the opposition. I would suggest there is potential conflict in self interest in three namespaces for XHTML. It will make it much more difficult for smaller and late arrivals to "conquer" to understand and to produce XHTML applications that compete with those who dominate in this market place. There is a self interest in producing complexity and I would suggest that this is part of the problem with the W3C. > 1. The biggest barrier to the uptake of XML will not be the popularity or competence of W3C members (just kidding) but the ability to convert legacy data. > 2. The easiest way to handle legacy data is to convert it to some simple XML, and then take advantage of XML techniques to make it 'nicer'. > 3. Most legacy data either exists in, or can be easily converted to, HTML. (It sits behind web servers.) > 4. The quickest initial transformation then, is to get HTML into an XML format that looks pretty much like HTML. > 5. This can then be tidied up into more meaningful tagged data (one of the goals of XML lest we forget!). > 6. There are three variants of HTML 4.0 so we need three variants of 'HTML 4.0 as XML' (let's call it XHTML). > 7. XHTML will be around for a little while in these variants as browsers catch up with this evolution. > 8. Eventually these variants will give way to a number of modules that handle the different features of HTML, such as a code module, a table module, an image module, and so on. > 9. Once 'pure' XML documents are being sent to browsers then we will want to mix and match other XML data with the display information that is XHTML. This may mean putting XHTML inside other documents, or other documents inside XHTML. > 10. Current DTDs cannot handle this, but XML Schema type solutions will be able to. > 11. In the short-term we therefore need a schema and a DTD for each variant of XHTML. > 12. But in the long run we will have schemas for each module. > > Note that unless you are mixing documents you do not need to use XHTML > anyway, unless you plan to store the document in a system that requires > the document to be validated. You can *produce* XHTML from your XSL > transformations, but who is going to check it? No current browser is. > > VALIDITY TODAY > So for me, the validity issue *for today* comes when I want to take > legacy data and make it more meaningful (as per point 5, above). Say I > have a web page from a client's intranet that has a list of all their > offices, and I want to convert that to XML. For example, I want to go > from: > > <TABLE> > <TR><TD>Office 1</TD><TD>London</TD></TR> > <TR><TD>Office 2</TD><TD>Birmingham</TD></TR> > <TR><TD>Office 3</TD><TD>Glasgow</TD></TR> > </TABLE> > > to: > > <Offices> > <Office> > <Name>Office 1</Name> > <City>London</City> > </Office> > <Office> > <Name>Office 2</Name> > <City>Birmingham</City> > </Office> > <Office> > <Name>Office 3</Name> > <City>Glasgow</City> > </Office> > </Offices> > > without using Notepad. The HTML file has to be converted to XHTML, > validated and then transformed. Each of the following will display in IE > and Netscape, but would break my final transformation: > > <TABLE> > <TR><TD>Office 1<TD>London > <TR><TD>Office 2<TD>Birmingham > <TR><TD>Office 3<TD>Glasgow > </TABLE> > > <TABLE> > <TR><TD ALIGN=LEFT>Office 1</TD><TD>London</TD></TR> > <TR><TD ALIGN="LEFT">Office 2</TD><TD>Birmingham</TD></TR> > <TR><TD>Office 3</TD><TD>Glasgow</TD></TR> > </TABLE> > > but if you automate the process of converting to XHTML, it will map to a > known 'standard' file. > > VALIDITY TOMORROW > The validity issue *for tomorrow* is the mixing of mark-up from > different XML-based languages within one document, and still being able > to check that all is OK. > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Aug 31 04:02:31 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2D@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <4.0.1.19990830215725.0409dde0@pop.hesketh.net> At 09:26 PM 8/30/99 +0100, Mark Birbeck wrote: >Simon - as you are, I am "outside looking in", and you're right it can >be frustrating. Frustrating? I thought it was pure fun. Oh yeah - just kidding. >However, my reason for making this assumption stems from >the following flow: > > 1. The biggest barrier to the uptake of XML will not be the > popularity or competence of W3C members (just kidding) > but the ability to convert legacy data. > 2. The easiest way to handle legacy data is to convert it to > some simple XML, and then take advantage of XML techniques > to make it 'nicer'. > 3. Most legacy data either exists in, or can be easily converted > to, HTML. (It sits behind web servers.) > 4. The quickest initial transformation then, is to get HTML into > an XML format that looks pretty much like HTML. > 5. This can then be tidied up into more meaningful tagged data > (one of the goals of XML lest we forget!). > 6. There are three variants of HTML 4.0 so we need three variants > of 'HTML 4.0 as XML' (let's call it XHTML). > 7. XHTML will be around for a little while in these variants as > browsers catch up with this evolution. > 8. Eventually these variants will give way to a number of modules > that handle the different features of HTML, such as a code > module, a table module, an image module, and so on. > 9. Once 'pure' XML documents are being sent to browsers then we > will want to mix and match other XML data with the display > information that is XHTML. This may mean putting XHTML inside > other documents, or other documents inside XHTML. >10. Current DTDs cannot handle this, but XML Schema type solutions > will be able to. >11. In the short-term we therefore need a schema and a DTD for each > variant of XHTML. >12. But in the long run we will have schemas for each module. In substance, I like this flow. Unfortunately, this isn't what's said in the W3C's PR - and moving from 7-9 seems like a much more complex project than you suggest, made much more complicated by the use of three namespaces (indeed, the existence of three variants). 10 and 11 feel like significant barriers rather than steps. #12 sounds great, and I thought that was the direction way back at the beginning of this - I really wonder why the W3C is starting out by recreating 3 variants of a monolith. However, it is not ours to wonder why... Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz Tue Aug 31 05:02:17 1999 From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Searching XML Message-ID: <37CB4625.669193D7@auckland.ac.nz> Hey team I have a number of HTML and XML files that are used to generate our website. We want to add search functionality to this site, so that we can look for keywords and text. It has proven too slow to search through all of the files, so the method I suspect we would use, would be to generate an additional database containing all of our main data (perhaps all words longer than 4 letters), that we could quickly look through to generate search results. Does anyone know of an implentation of search functionality along these lines (Perl modules would be nice.) Or can anyone suggest a better plan of attack? Thanks -- Warren Hedley Department of Engineering Science Auckland University New Zealand xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 09:05:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37CB7F58.4760FB83@pacbell.net> Ann Navarro wrote: > > Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't confidential discussions > in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more forthcoming ... And of course, that's the cause of a lot of the problems. The more I watch things at W3C, the more I feel that the Web should be driven instead by a standards organization with public accountability. Being accountable to vendors who have vested interests in bloatware (as key parts of new barriers to entry) isn't the right model. Somebody did the basic math in a comment: three variants of XHTML will very quickly add an order of magnitude to the complexity of the systems built with it. That's a deterrent to the use of XHTML, and discards the simplification that's long been at the core of the XML movement. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From huisien at pl.jaring.my Tue Aug 31 09:28:31 1999 From: huisien at pl.jaring.my (huisien) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Question regarding changing data from database into XML Message-ID: <002e01bef382$2cf05ac0$16738ea1@winner> Hi, I am a beginner in XML. I am currently developing a online payment system ( like GIRO). Therefore, I need to use EDI and I use XML to develope my own EDI. However, what I read so far is that I will have all my data in XML file and the format I want the data to be will be in XSL file. Then, I use a XSL processor to change them into HTML file. For my system, I need to access data from a few different databases ( databases of different service providers like water supply company, electricity supplier....). My question is how can I access these data from the database and change them into XML file so that I can format this data using XSL and let my customer view the format that I set for them. Another thing, if I don't want to use a XSL processor to change my XML document into HTML form, is there other way to change the XML to HTML? Where can I get the information for this. Thank you for your precious information and help. Thank you. from, June -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990831/30ab704d/attachment.htm From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Tue Aug 31 11:05:41 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Searching XML Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2E@sohos002.ied-support.net> Depends on the complexity of your XML. If it's fairly flat then a nice 'cheap and cheerful' method is to convert each XML document into an HTML version with all the relevant info in META tags. Then use standard indexing software. When you do a search, instead of returning the HTML file found, return the XML one that it is a place-holder for. Although it's a poor relation to properly indexing XML files, it does mean that when you get an index server that can handle XML your project structure won't change a lot. Best regards, Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Warren Hedley [mailto:w.hedley@auckland.ac.nz] > Sent: 31 August 1999 04:04 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Searching XML > > > Hey team > > I have a number of HTML and XML files that are used to generate > our website. We want to add search functionality to this site, > so that we can look for keywords and text. > > It has proven too slow to search through all of the files, so > the method I suspect we would use, would be to generate an > additional database containing all of our main data (perhaps > all words longer than 4 letters), that we could quickly look > through to generate search results. > > Does anyone know of an implentation of search functionality > along these lines (Perl modules would be nice.) Or can anyone > suggest a better plan of attack? > > Thanks > > > -- > Warren Hedley > Department of Engineering Science > Auckland University > New Zealand > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From scpark at swc.sec.samsung.co.kr Tue Aug 31 11:34:59 1999 From: scpark at swc.sec.samsung.co.kr (=?euc-kr?B?udq8usL5?=) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Please unsubscribe~ Message-ID: <003928C86BDDD211BC8000A0C98A61292C59AD@SWC> Please remove my E-mail address in subscription list. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From m.vedachalam at tatainfotech.com Tue Aug 31 13:42:52 1999 From: m.vedachalam at tatainfotech.com (veda) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors In-Reply-To: <37C91D8E.55B25EF9@isogen.com> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9908311551180.17680-100000@blrmail.in.tatainfotech.com> Hai all.... Could someone tell me what is internal subset, external subset, Namespaces in XML. Is there any website which discusses them and the XML terms in general. thanx in advance veda. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 14:29:31 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830113837.047cd510@mail.webgeek.com> References: <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> <4.1.19990830113837.047cd510@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14283.51858.936662.561937@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > >I used the PSGML editor to create dozens of XHTML documents that > >conformed to the last working draft, and even though there was just > >one XHTML Namespace in that draft, my editor still would not let me > >insert a <font> element in a strict-flavoured document. > > So we don't have a problem, do we? > > Did it *fail* when you had three namespaces? No, but that's hardly the point: it's the processing side that runs into trouble with three Namespaces, not the authoring side. Both figuratively and literally, it's a lot easier to produce crap than it is to consume it. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mnutter at fore.com Tue Aug 31 14:37:32 1999 From: mnutter at fore.com (Mark Nutter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Veda's questions (Re: Namespace handling in XML Processors) In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9908311551180.17680-100000@blrmail.in.tatain fotech.com> References: <37C91D8E.55B25EF9@isogen.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990831083041.00bfa5a0@pophost1.fore.com> Though a novice, I thought I'd take a stab at this -- I think I understand, but let me know if I goof up. At 03:53 PM 08/31/99 +0530, you wrote: >Could someone tell me what is > >internal subset, external subset, Namespaces in XML. Internal subset: entities are declared within the individual XML document (rather than in the external DTD) inside the DOCTYPE tag. External subset: entities are declared in the DTD (i.e. external to the particular individual XML document). Namespaces: using a special syntax, you associate a particular prefix with a particular (arbitrary?) URI, and then use that prefix in front of all your tags, e.g. if you define a "foo" namespace, then instead of using a <bar> tag you would use a <foo:bar> tag. If you've been following XML-DEV lately you might get the idea there is some question as to whether namespaces accomplish anything useful or not... :-) >Is there any website which discusses them and the XML terms in general. You might want to explore Robin Cover's XML (etc) pages: http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/ -_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_- Mark Nutter, <mnutter@fore.com> Internet Applications Developer FORE Systems When birds start perching on the lawn, it's time to mow it. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 14:45:51 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Over 10,000 XHTML authors? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990830100151.041b99a0@mail.webgeek.com> References: <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> <4.1.19990830100151.041b99a0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <14283.52848.208343.621532@localhost.localdomain> Ann Navarro writes: > At 08:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > > >It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed > >XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; > > I've got tens of thousands of constituents that do it every day. Hardly > brutal. I had no idea that there were so many people creating well-formed XHTML already -- if there are tens of thousands of authors, then there must be over 1M well-formed XHTML web pages online already. Some pointers would be helpful -- many of the people on this list would love to test their XML software with such a large document base. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 14:50:33 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Who needs XHTML? In-Reply-To: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F29@sohos002.ied-support.net> References: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F29@sohos002.ied-support.net> Message-ID: <14283.53021.904985.100176@localhost.localdomain> Mark Birbeck writes: > I think a number of contributors have very patiently explained that > this is only XHTML 1.0. It handles the ability to process HTML as > if it were XML, and for that we should be grateful. I'm using that > feature quite a lot. While we're still a ways away from having schemas that allow document-type assembly from other schemas, the most important task for XHTML (other than saying that XHTML should be well-formed XML, which is a bit of a truisim), is to establish an XHTML Namespace so that processors can discover HTML markup in arbitrary XML documents. We don't need Namespace-aware schemas or anything else to do that. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Tue Aug 31 15:02:25 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors References: <Pine.LNX.4.04.9908311551180.17680-100000@blrmail.in.tatainfotech.com> Message-ID: <37CB7B3E.897B57C0@isogen.com> veda wrote: > > Hai all.... > > Could someone tell me what is > > internal subset, external subset, Namespaces in XML. > Is there any website which discusses them and the XML terms in general. An XML document consists of three parts, two of which must always be explicitly present (the third is implicit if not provided): 1. The XML declaration: <?xml version="1.0"?> 2. The DOCTYPE declaration (which can be omitted) 3. The document instance (the tag stuff) The DOCTYPE declaration declares the name of the root element (the "document type") and declares the element types used in the instance. It also contains declarations of any entities used by the document (entities are either string macros or files (technically, abstract storage objects). Logically the DOCTYPE declaration is a flat list of element type, attribute list, and entity declarations (and notation declarations, but I haven't talked about those). Physically, the declaration can be organized into two parts, one in the document's main file (the "document entity", that is, the file that contains the XML declaration, the DOCTYPE declaration (if there is one), and the root element) and one in an external file. Because these two parts of the DOCTYPE declaration make up the larger whole, they are both subsets. The one inside the document is the "internal" subset and the one outside the document is the "external" subset. A typical DOCTYPE declaration looks like this: <!DOCTYPE foo SYSTEM "myexternalsubset.dtd" [ <!-- This is the internal subset --> <!ELEMENT foo (#PCDATA) ><!-- Declaration of element type 'foo' --> ]> The external subset is the file named by the filename following the SYSTEM keyword. While logically there is no difference between the internal and external subsets, XML defines slightly different rules for how the internal and external subsets must be processed. This reflects common (although misguided, IMNSHO) practice and makes things easier for processors that don't do validation and therefore don't need to process the declarations. One key rule about internal and external subsets is that the internal subset is always parsed *before* the external subset, which means that any entities declared in the internal subset will take precedence over entities with the same name declared in the external subset. This allows a weak form of modularization of declaration sets: external DTD subsets can provide entities that are intended to be redeclared in internal subsets. Cheers, E. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 15:01:35 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: How much extra code for multiple Namespaces? In-Reply-To: <37CA7D2F.C43EF303@prescod.net> References: <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> <37CA7D2F.C43EF303@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14283.53548.481057.494235@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Adding three lines of code introduces the opportunity for three times > the bugs in a real application? I don't buy it. Looking for "HTML 4.0 > strict" OR "HTML 4.0 frameset" is no harder than looking for "UL" OR > "OL", if the software is set up right. Not with most current software and specs, unfortunately -- with XSLT, JavaScript+DOM, XQL, XPointer, or anything else that's likely to be deployed within the next 24 months, we're looking at more like 3 * (# of refs to element names) * (# of refs to attribute names) For any non-trivial XML code, such as an XSL stylesheet, that's probably at least 500-600 extra lines. Of course, if you're rolling your own, low-level software in Perl or Java, you can always design the infrastructure any way you want. Paul has argued that XSL, DOM, XPointer, etc. should (or should have) been designed differently; but, in fact, they haven't, and there's far from unanimous agreement that they should be, so it's not quite sincere to keep talking about "three more lines of code". All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 16:17:50 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <37CB7F58.4760FB83@pacbell.net> References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831101616.047b8f00@mail.webgeek.com> At 12:08 AM 8/31/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >Ann Navarro wrote: >> >> Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't confidential discussions >> in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more forthcoming ... > >And of course, that's the cause of a lot of the problems. > >The more I watch things at W3C, the more I feel that the Web should be >driven instead by a standards organization with public accountability. >Being accountable to vendors who have vested interests in bloatware (as >key parts of new barriers to entry) isn't the right model. Take a look at the membership list: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List While there are certainly the large industry players on there, there's lots of little guys -- and indeed my own constituency (the HTML Writers Guild), effectively represents 100,000 individual little guys. We're not "accountable to vendors....". We act on our own behalf, and have the same power as any other participant. Our Microsoft participant doesn't get his way any more than anyone else does :) Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 16:25:20 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <199908301924.PAA31715@hesketh.net> References: <4.1.19990830141430.04694f00@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301801.OAA26560@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831102408.047d3660@mail.webgeek.com> While I have indeed said many of the things quoted to you, I have not given permission for them to be quoted out of context. When I have substantive comment to make about the PR I shall do so myself. Until then, any comments from me should not be considered. Thank you. Ann At 03:24 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 02:21 PM 8/30/99 -0400, you wrote: >>At 02:05 PM 8/30/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>>Assuming that the WG has a clear, though unstated, roadmap for integrating >>>its usage of namespaces with future XML schema developments seems like a >>>very bad idea indeed. >> >>Wait a minute, nobody has said that. How does the HTML WG have the power to >>"integrate" it's uage of namespaces with someone else's work product? > >Mark was suggesting earlier that those namespaces would provide information >connected to schemas. This does not appear to be a good assumption, which >is most of what I was saying. However, it doesn't seem like the HTML WG >has really explained why it wants three namespaces, how (if) those >namespaces should be used in conjunction with validation, and what possible >value those namespaces might provide (beyond the DOCTYPE declaration) in >the future. > >It does seem like it would be reasonable for the HTML WG to integrate its >product with the Namespaces in XML recommendation by providing an explicit >statement of how it plans to use namespaces and what the reasoning behind >that usage of namespaces looks like. There is no explanation of that >reasoning in the present draft - just an announcement of three namespaces >(3.1.1-3) and a brief example of non-conformant integration with MathML >(3.1.2). > >Also, the Future Directions area (section 6) would be a good place to >discuss plans for working with the schema WG, if indeed there are such >plans. Document profiling is a tool that would be useful anywhere in XML; >it doesn't seem like these directions are expliciting limited to work that >only relies on the HTML WG itself. > >>This is where assumptions lead to alot of misinformation and assertions >>that the sky is falling. > >The sky isn't falling - it's just that it's hard to tell (from out here) >whether the sky is clear or cloudy, and whether it's raining or snowing. >It's not clear on what grounds namespaces are being assigned or how they >should be used. Given that lack of information, it seems reasonable to >proceed cautiously - and critically. > >>We can certainly sit here and poke sticks at the process, but it's what we >>have to work with right now. Within this process, it is a given that >>non-participants and non-member-employee individuals won't have direct >>access to the drafts that haven't yet been made public. I don't think we're >>really here to argue the appropriateness of that right now. > >The W3C's closed process is unfortunate. However, that doesn't mean that >outsiders should read drafts under the assumption that 'future drafts will >fix everything', which appeared to be the drift of your earlier comments. > >If the W3C wants meaningful public comments, it has to be prepared to deal >with comments from those of use who don't have access the full set of >background information locked away in members-only areas. Saying 'trust >us' isn't enough. It requires explanation of underlying assumptions, at >least. > >It would also help to identify where these outside comments should go, as >do most of the XML drafts... > >>But that lag in information dissemination shouldn't be a platform for leaps >>in assumption either. The people working on these things aren't stupid -- >>nor are they unaware of conversations like this one, in this forum and in >>many others. > >Indeed - they shouldn't be a platform for any assumptions, as stated above, >including assumptions of magical integration with future schemas or a >better world coming with the next revisions. > >Now I have to go back and forward a bunch of these messages to the official >W3C areas... hopefully we've beaten this issue enough already. > >Simon St.Laurent >XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) >Building XML Applications >Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical >Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies >http://www.simonstl.com > > --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From schen at falconwing.com Tue Aug 31 16:25:33 1999 From: schen at falconwing.com (schen@falconwing.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: How much extra code for multiple Namespaces? In-Reply-To: <14283.53548.481057.494235@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990831100654.23086A-100000@www.falconwing.com> Hi Dave, everyone, On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, David Megginson wrote: > Paul Prescod writes: > > > Adding three lines of code introduces the opportunity for three times > > the bugs in a real application? I don't buy it. Looking for "HTML 4.0 > > strict" OR "HTML 4.0 frameset" is no harder than looking for "UL" OR > > "OL", if the software is set up right. > > Not with most current software and specs, unfortunately -- with XSLT, > JavaScript+DOM, XQL, XPointer, or anything else that's likely to be > deployed within the next 24 months, we're looking at more like > > 3 * (# of refs to element names) * (# of refs to attribute names) > > For any non-trivial XML code, such as an XSL stylesheet, that's > probably at least 500-600 extra lines. Of course, if you're rolling > your own, low-level software in Perl or Java, you can always design > the infrastructure any way you want. I don't understand this point of contention (see other thread about my questions about Namespace processing). As there is no defined mechanism for namespace processing and it seems that with xmlns and contained elements "inheriting" namespaces, you would still need some mechanism to recognize namespaces and it would be folly to use current non-recognizing parsers anyway. If you have such a mechanism then it should be fairly trivial to map all three XHTML namespaces into one, if as you say 99% of applications will treat them all the same anyway. Then it is nowhere near the extra amount of code that you claim? If you could, pls give an example! I would have to say it seems that this lack of mandate on how XML processors should deal with Namespaces is a huge lack, without even a W3C issued Note about it either if I'm not mistaken. Ann may say that it seems the future direction is to bind the Namespace URI to a schema, but without any public guidance how can we implement current Namespace-aware processors? I very much lean toward Paul Prescod's and James Tauber's proposals. Then again as I'm still trying to clarify exactly how namespaces are meant to be used, I may be way off base. Please feel free to correct my impressions =) . . . Sean. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 16:40:31 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Over 10,000 XHTML authors? In-Reply-To: <14283.52848.208343.621532@localhost.localdomain> References: <4.1.19990830100151.041b99a0@mail.webgeek.com> <37C9AFAF.8A870840@prescod.net> <37C9292D.6291833C@prescod.net> <14281.23951.14462.921886@localhost.localdomain> <37C968F2.5F3BAC8B@prescod.net> <14281.32744.956617.331478@localhost.localdomain> <14281.52695.241142.273275@localhost.localdomain> <4.1.19990830100151.041b99a0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831103956.047a0220@mail.webgeek.com> At 08:47 AM 8/31/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Ann Navarro writes: > > > At 08:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > > > > >It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed > > >XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; > > > > I've got tens of thousands of constituents that do it every day. Hardly > > brutal. > >I had no idea that there were so many people creating well-formed >XHTML already -- David, they do it with HTML 4.0 already. Make a few very tiny changes, and you have well-formed XHTML. This is not rocket science. Now if you want to continue a pissing content, let's go off line. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nico at echange.fr Tue Aug 31 16:51:46 1999 From: nico at echange.fr (Nicolas MONNET) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: XHTML handling in Mac/IE Re: Over 10,000 XHTML authors? Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9908311805300.3908-100000@echangeur.echange.fr> Apparently, someone reported to me problems while browsing an XHTML-compliant site I'm developping; this nice browser downloads the file instead of displaying it if it starts with <?xml version="1.0"?>, and displays blank pages under other circumstances. I could'nt find another mac to try that though. Any hints? Oh BTW the files in question have a '.html' extension. -- Many are called, few are chosen. Fewer still choose. On Tue, 31 Aug 1999, David Megginson wrote: > Ann Navarro writes: > > > At 08:22 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > > > > >It's going to be brutal just getting people to create well-formed > > >XHTML documents and to include the Namespace declaration; > > > > I've got tens of thousands of constituents that do it every day. Hardly > > brutal. > > I had no idea that there were so many people creating well-formed > XHTML already -- if there are tens of thousands of authors, then there > must be over 1M well-formed XHTML web pages online already. Some > pointers would be helpful -- many of the people on this list would > love to test their XML software with such a large document base. > > > Thanks, and all the best, > > > David > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Aug 31 17:13:14 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: Reducing the level of violence - XHTML In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990831102408.047d3660@mail.webgeek.com> References: <199908301924.PAA31715@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830141430.04694f00@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301801.OAA26560@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830133705.0481b3c0@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301728.NAA24745@hesketh.net> <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2A@sohos002.ied-suppor t.net> Message-ID: <199908311515.LAA10351@hesketh.net> Discussing W3C issues on the XML-dev list seems to produce some remarkable levels of firepower. Apparently these issues matter very much to many people, all of whom appear to have strong opinions. For those of us who aren't W3C members, this forum is one of the few places where we can participate in open discussion of these issues, and I value that openness very much, though it does seem to have an effect on participants' blood pressure. I'd thought this was a reasoned discussion - okay, fine, a debate at times - that might be worth presenting to the W3C as relevant material from a public forum. Hence my cross-posting of three messages to www-html (and, since it isn't clear who to send outside comments to, a few other addresses listed in the XHTML PR.) Apparently, I crossed some line betwen the rough-and-tumble public world of xml-dev and the world of the W3C inadvertently, and I apologize for that mistake and the anger it has caused. Hopefully we can scale back the rhetoric some and discuss this sanely. Perhaps it would have been smarter to have the entire discussion on www-html@w3.org, though it is difficult to stop discussions once they've started in one place and restart them elsewhere. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer (2nd Ed - September) Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 17:15:30 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:30 2004 Subject: How do you determine success? References: <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> <37C96654.37A2B57@prescod.net> <14280.27585.621928.197521@localhost.localdomain> <14281.31976.359164.351359@localhost.localdomain> <4.2.0.58.19990829145804.00a72180@mail.webgeek.com> <4.2.0.58.19990829160341.00aa4100@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37CBF21F.16A252E6@pacbell.net> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 03:55 PM 8/29/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >Ann Navarro writes: > > > > > Did HTML 4.0 -- with it's three versions, fail from overcomplexity? Calling three DTDs, differing at the high level by definition of less than a handful of parameter entities, "versions" is a huge stretch. One that's at the heart of this discussion. Really, HTML 4 is one language, with DTDs defining three subsets. The inclusive subset is by far the most popular one. > >Sorry to be harsh, but ... > > Is that not, then, a failure of the user agent and not the spec? Specifications need debugging just as much as code. Writing code to a spec with deep flaws -- such as overcomplexity, or premature publication -- is a huge problem. As someone who's both written specs and coded to them, I think the HTML 4.0 issues are tied more to the spec than to those user agents. How does one debug a specification? And importantly, WHEN does it get debugged ... before the spec is final, or after? I've seen it work best the IETF way, debugging _before_ concrete gets cast. The Internet protocol stack gives us global connnectivity, and with very few problems. The W3C way, examplified by a huge HTML 4 spec that's not widely enough implemented to depend on, hasn't. (We know that the XML spec was rather atypical in the W3C processes.) It's curious to realize that XML, published as a REC not two months after HTML 4.0, actually has MANY conformant implementations available, today. Simplicity is one its most significant virtues. Most folk would agree that HTML 4.0 doesn't have _one_ such implementation. Complexity is one of its most significant flaws. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 17:18:32 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors References: <199908310716.AAA21596@mail-gw2.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37CBF2CC.F17AA60C@pacbell.net> schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > It's very confusing as to what is regarded as correct behavior by XML > processors when encountering a document with namespaces. There's no need for confusion. The XML 1.0 specification defines what XML processors must do. It explicitly requires accepting documents with constructs that do not conform to what the XML namespaces spec wants. That means that XML 1.0 processors must ignore namespaces. Whatever component of a system pays attention to namespaces isn't going to be called an XML 1.0 processor. - Dave p.s. Notice that's true regardless of whether you're talking about a validating processor or not. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 17:51:29 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990831101616.047b8f00@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37CBFA6E.84217AD@pacbell.net> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 12:08 AM 8/31/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >Ann Navarro wrote: > >> > >> Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't confidential discussions > >> in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more forthcoming ... > > > >And of course, that's the cause of a lot of the problems. > > > >The more I watch things at W3C, the more I feel that the Web should be > >driven instead by a standards organization with public accountability. > >Being accountable to vendors who have vested interests in bloatware (as > >key parts of new barriers to entry) isn't the right model. > > Take a look at the membership list: http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List > > While there are certainly the large industry players on there, there's lots > of little guys I didn't say "big" vendors -- you did. Smaller vendors (including "little guys" whose incomes are a function of taming complexity) can have interests in creating bloatware too. The folk who do _not_ have vested interests in bloated software are typically represented by checks and balances in the standards-making process. But W3C, unlike other groups (such as the IETF, IEEE, ANSI) doesn't have any effective checks on such biases. > -- and indeed my own constituency (the HTML Writers Guild), > effectively represents 100,000 individual little guys. We're not > "accountable to vendors....". We act on our own behalf, and have the same > power as any other participant. Our Microsoft participant doesn't get his > way any more than anyone else does :) And I didn't mention Microsoft, either. It's evident that they're a vendor with the proven desire and capability to create bloatware, but they're not in it alone. One doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to identify real flaws in how the W3C does its business. As a steward of an international resource, it should be as accountable to customers as to vendors. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 17:55:41 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <37CBFA6E.84217AD@pacbell.net> References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990831101616.047b8f00@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831115549.047e9330@mail.webgeek.com> At 08:53 AM 8/31/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >One doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to identify real flaws >in how the W3C does its business. As a steward of an international >resource, it should be as accountable to customers as to vendors. And I'm trying to point out it is. The membership is not solely made up of vendors. :) Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 18:10:57 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors References: <199908311608.JAA03027@mail-gw.pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37CBFF1B.886F0131@pacbell.net> schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > Hi David, everyone, > > Thanks for clearing up all the different issues. > > So if I'm to understand this correctly, for processing to occur in the > right way involves the following steps: It'd normally happen in the other order ... namespace processing after XML processing, but I think the implied order wasn't intentional! > Namespace processor: > apply scoping, defaulting, and URI comparison to all elements so that each > element and attribute has a namespace prefix, normalizing all elements and > attributes in the same URI namespace to have the same prefix. That'd be one kind of namespace processor; there are others. This can all be done dynamically. And of course, prefixes aren't supposed to matter except to be mnemonic to folk writing XML by hand -- many "namespace processors" will ignore prefixes except for output concerns. Applications doing "semantic" processing should use the namespace URI and the local part of the name, ignoring everything else. > DTD: > using external/internal subsets, define DTD using normalized namespace > prefixes. This would require somehow combining the DTD's of each > namespace being used. An example would be in XSLT, validating stylesheets > using the XSLT DTD fragment. > > XML Processor: > process as usual, all element and attribute names having been > "fully-qualified", is treated just like any other XML document. DTD processing is done by the XML processor, and doesn't know a thing about XML namespaces. They're orthogonal. > Do I have this right? No, DTD processing is part of XML processing and doesn't know anything at all about namespaces. "Normalizing" prefixes isn't required (if it were done, a namespace processor could do it), and if you can use DTD mechanisms to combine your vocabularies you didn't really need to use namespaces. > So currently the tricky part is merging the DTDs, > and without standardization on schemas and namespace semantics mapping, > many people feel that namespaces are confusing at best and useless at > worst as it is today. The most effective way to think about XML namespaces is without letting DTDs enter the discussion. There's a set of documents that can use them together, but the conflicts are more evident. The XML Namespace spec was pretty much rushed to REC status a bit on the early side ... without a good general understanding of its place in the suite of XML standards. Hence that confusion. > But at least I can recognize the utility of namespaces in XSLT, which > would be more difficult to handle without this facility. Less clear to me > is the raging XHTML debate in the parallel thread(s). > > Sorry for stirring up anything that was rehashed before, I've only just > subscribed to the list. Thanks again. There seem to be no flames on this thread! (Knock on wood ... ;-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 18:16:26 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? References: <4.1.19990830113418.047d8550@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301516.LAA18797@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <4.1.19990830120842.047ebb00@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990831101616.047b8f00@mail.webgeek.com> <4.1.19990831115549.047e9330@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <37CC0068.369FBB7D@pacbell.net> Ann Navarro wrote: > > At 08:53 AM 8/31/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > > >One doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to identify real flaws > >in how the W3C does its business. As a steward of an international > >resource, it should be as accountable to customers as to vendors. > > And I'm trying to point out it is. Flawed? :-) That issue is well recognized on XML-DEV. This XHTML debate is one symptom. > The membership is not solely made up of > vendors. :) It's hard to see the evidence of that in the actions taken. Rushing "specifications" out before there's real consensus in the industry (including customers!) on them is only of benefit to suppliers ("first to market" advantage). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Tue Aug 31 18:36:01 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <37CBFA6E.84217AD@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000701bef3cf$80260df0$f3f6b5cf@zippy> As I read and listen to more and more of these w3c versus the masses battles, I have to confess that the missing element is the argument for *not* providing greater exposure/accountability. Is it: Exposure of proprietary information? Cost? Time? Quality? Personal attacks? Perhaps these concerns/realities could be overcome? They certainly seem to be worth substantive attention on the part of all concerned. Surely the W3 cannot afford to not change in response to what appears to be widespread (and growing!) agreement that there is a problem? good luck to us all! erik > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > David Brownell > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 8:53 AM > To: Ann Navarro > Cc: XML-Dev Mailing list > Subject: Re: why distinctions within XHTML? > > > Ann Navarro wrote: > > > > At 12:08 AM 8/31/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > > >Ann Navarro wrote: > > >> > > >> Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't > confidential discussions > > >> in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more > forthcoming ... > > > > > >And of course, that's the cause of a lot of the problems. > > > > > >The more I watch things at W3C, the more I feel that the Web should be > > >driven instead by a standards organization with public accountability. > > >Being accountable to vendors who have vested interests in bloatware (as > > >key parts of new barriers to entry) isn't the right model. > > > > Take a look at the membership list: > http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List > > > > While there are certainly the large industry players on there, > there's lots > > of little guys > > I didn't say "big" vendors -- you did. Smaller vendors (including > "little guys" whose incomes are a function of taming complexity) can > have interests in creating bloatware too. > > The folk who do _not_ have vested interests in bloated software are > typically represented by checks and balances in the standards-making > process. But W3C, unlike other groups (such as the IETF, IEEE, ANSI) > doesn't have any effective checks on such biases. > > > > -- and indeed my own constituency (the HTML Writers Guild), > > effectively represents 100,000 individual little guys. We're not > > "accountable to vendors....". We act on our own behalf, and > have the same > > power as any other participant. Our Microsoft participant > doesn't get his > > way any more than anyone else does :) > > And I didn't mention Microsoft, either. It's evident that they're > a vendor with the proven desire and capability to create bloatware, > but they're not in it alone. > > One doesn't need to be a conspiracy theorist to identify real flaws > in how the W3C does its business. As a steward of an international > resource, it should be as accountable to customers as to vendors. > > - Dave > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 18:36:39 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? References: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D0E8F2D@sohos002.ied-support.net> Message-ID: <37CC04FD.2DC4919@pacbell.net> Mark Birbeck wrote: > > 6. There are three variants of HTML 4.0 so we need three variants > of 'HTML 4.0 as XML' (let's call it XHTML). Isn't that assertion pretty core to this debate? That is, it's not a generally accepted assumption. Lots of people think of HTML as _one_ vocabulary, where you'll avoid certain words (some even have four letters :-) to fit into certain subsets (e.g. "strict" ~= "NC-17", "HTML 3.2" ~= "PG-13"). This is the "commonality" argument -- we're striving for common vocabularies and reuse, broadening markets not restricting them, making software general purpose (while allowing specialization in those few cases it's needed). Oh, there's also a major procedural issue too: discussions about technical issues, such as the one above, were discarded by the sudden appearance of a major directional change, one week ago, in a draft called "PR" despite having such a controversial change. That's the whole "W3C isn't being fair with the web community" set of issues -- autocratic behavior clearly on the rise. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 18:57:44 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: How much extra code for multiple Namespaces? In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990831100654.23086A-100000@www.falconwing.com> References: <14283.53548.481057.494235@localhost.localdomain> <Pine.LNX.3.96.990831100654.23086A-100000@www.falconwing.com> Message-ID: <14284.2448.584891.637005@localhost.localdomain> schen@falconwing.com writes: > If you have such a mechanism then it should be fairly trivial to map all > three XHTML namespaces into one, if as you say 99% of applications will > treat them all the same anyway. Then it is nowhere near the extra amount > of code that you claim? If you could, pls give an example! I'll give two: XSL and XPointer. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 31 18:59:55 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors Message-ID: <19990831170201.26082.rocketmail@web113.yahoomail.com> Hey Guys my mailbox is flooding with the namespace mails. So why not I ask all of you one question. Can the XML Document contain namespace?? Pleae know whether this is a valid XML Doc or not ====================== its in the attachment =========================== --- David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net> wrote: > schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > > > Hi David, everyone, > > > > Thanks for clearing up all the different issues. > > > > So if I'm to understand this correctly, for > processing to occur in the > > right way involves the following steps: > > It'd normally happen in the other order ... > namespace processing after > XML processing, but I think the implied order wasn't > intentional! > > > > Namespace processor: > > apply scoping, defaulting, and URI comparison to > all elements so that each > > element and attribute has a namespace prefix, > normalizing all elements and > > attributes in the same URI namespace to have the > same prefix. > > That'd be one kind of namespace processor; there are > others. This > can all be done dynamically. And of course, > prefixes aren't supposed > to matter except to be mnemonic to folk writing XML > by hand -- many > "namespace processors" will ignore prefixes except > for output concerns. > Applications doing "semantic" processing should use > the namespace URI > and the local part of the name, ignoring everything > else. > > > > DTD: > > using external/internal subsets, define DTD using > normalized namespace > > prefixes. This would require somehow combining > the DTD's of each > > namespace being used. An example would be in > XSLT, validating stylesheets > > using the XSLT DTD fragment. > > > > XML Processor: > > process as usual, all element and attribute names > having been > > "fully-qualified", is treated just like any other > XML document. > > DTD processing is done by the XML processor, and > doesn't know > a thing about XML namespaces. They're orthogonal. > > > > Do I have this right? > > No, DTD processing is part of XML processing and > doesn't know > anything at all about namespaces. "Normalizing" > prefixes isn't > required (if it were done, a namespace processor > could do it), > and if you can use DTD mechanisms to combine your > vocabularies > you didn't really need to use namespaces. > > > > So currently the tricky part is merging the > DTDs, > > and without standardization on schemas and > namespace semantics mapping, > > many people feel that namespaces are confusing at > best and useless at > > worst as it is today. > > The most effective way to think about XML namespaces > is without > letting DTDs enter the discussion. There's a set of > documents > that can use them together, but the conflicts are > more evident. > > The XML Namespace spec was pretty much rushed to REC > status a bit > on the early side ... without a good general > understanding of its > place in the suite of XML standards. Hence that > confusion. > > > > But at least I can recognize the utility of > namespaces in XSLT, which > > would be more difficult to handle without this > facility. Less clear to me > > is the raging XHTML debate in the parallel > thread(s). > > > > Sorry for stirring up anything that was rehashed > before, I've only just > > subscribed to the list. Thanks again. > > There seem to be no flames on this thread! (Knock > on wood ... ;-) > > - Dave > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: WDopInitialize.xml Type: text/xml Size: 2974 bytes Desc: WDopInitialize.xml Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990831/fccec862/WDopInitialize.xml From wunder at infoseek.com Tue Aug 31 18:59:34 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: new version of search engine for XML documents Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990831095731.00bfd170@corp.infoseek.com> Commercial announcement: Ultraseek Server 3.1 is available with improved support for XML. This is an internet search engine based on Infoseek/GO.com search, and designed for ease-of-admin, scalability, and relevant results. This is our third release with XML support. Ultraseek Server first supported indexing XML documents in version 2.1, way back in September 1998. The XML support is designed for providing search to users over sets of XML documents. It is not designed as a repository for authors, as a database-like search (SQL, XQL, etc.), nor for arbitrary searches depending on element context (XPath). It is designed for people to type in a word or a phrase and get the most relevant documents without having to learn a query language. The XML support in 3.1 allows admins to map text inside elements to search fields, and to have different mappings for different root element names (we can't rely on DTDs, since we only require well-formedness, not validity). If one document type uses <author>, another uses <docAuthor>, another uses <byline>, and yet another uses <creator>, all of those can be mapped to "author:name" searches. It ships with default mappings for: TEI DocBk XML V3.1.3 the Bosak religion collection the Bosak Shakespear collection FGDC Content Standard for Digital Geospatial Metadata and a fallback default mapping that covers some common conventions, like <title> or <TITLE> for the document title. Simple links in XLink format (that is, "href" attributes) will be followed by the spider. Elements qualified by namespaces can be mapped. For more information, see http://software.infoseek.com/. For detailed XML questions, you can ask me, but for more general software support you'll probably get more prompt answers from our usual support e-mail (it doesn't take vacations). Special thanks to James Clark for his high-quality parser (Expat) and his liberal license. And continuing special thanks to the Python community. wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From BMurri at wavephore.net Tue Aug 31 19:16:40 1999 From: BMurri at wavephore.net (Blair Murri) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? Message-ID: <31AA4BE99284D211B47A006008172E20016E99@MAILMAN> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 1:08 AM > To: Ann Navarro > Cc: XML-Dev Mailing list > Subject: Re: why distinctions within XHTML? > > Ann Navarro wrote: > > > > Part of the problem here is what is and what isn't confidential > discussions > > in a WG. If this were a W3C-internal list, I could be more forthcoming > ... > > And of course, that's the cause of a lot of the problems. > > The more I watch things at W3C, the more I feel that the Web should be > driven instead by a standards organization with public accountability. > Being accountable to vendors who have vested interests in bloatware (as > key parts of new barriers to entry) isn't the right model. > > Somebody did the basic math in a comment: three variants of XHTML will > very quickly add an order of magnitude to the complexity of the systems > built with it. That's a deterrent to the use of XHTML, and discards the > simplification that's long been at the core of the XML movement. > > - Dave > I agree with Dave. The more I look, the more I am convinced that the W3C is not the right standards body to deal with XML, which is being employed in many arenas that have absolutely nothing to do with the web. In fact, if/when the true potential of XML is realized, the web will be a minor player in that. SGML is/was not the native language of the web. HTML was derived for that purpose. XML is/has the potential to be used for much more then internet publishing of information. The web has benefited from many technological contributions, many of which predate the web by a couple of decades, and most of the technology that goes into it is not at all web specific (connection oriented stream TCP communications, MIME, request/response, etc.). To think that XML is a web-only or even a web-mostly language is to miss the boat so far as to not even notice the ripples. Frankly, one has to question the W3C's ability to deliver a good product (I mean, *3* version 4 HTML's?????) Let's get real here. This body has only one goal in mind, and that is to create *us* and *them*, and leave *us* on top no matter the cost. Blair L. Murri Sr. Programmer/etc. WavePhore, Inc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990831/58d6dd33/attachment.htm From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 19:14:23 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <000701bef3cf$80260df0$f3f6b5cf@zippy> References: <37CBFA6E.84217AD@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831124418.047c9ab0@mail.webgeek.com> At 09:40 AM 8/31/99 -0700, Erik James Freed wrote: >As I read and listen to more and more of these w3c versus the masses >battles, I have to confess that the >missing element is the argument for *not* providing greater >exposure/accountability. Is it: Exposure of >proprietary information? Cost? Time? Quality? Personal attacks? Perhaps >these concerns/realities could be >overcome? This is, of course, only my personal opinion. I'm not speaking for the W3C, or in an official capacity for HWG. Primary issues: manageability, timeliness, cost, and the ability to commit. I personally have never been involved in an IETF activity. My understanding, from trusted colleagues that have, is that it is a painfully slow process, and often highly chaotic. (Speeds, of course, being relative, if you were to go on and compare it to ISO, etc). Manageability: even within the W3C, all members don't participate in each WG. 10-25 individual representatives do. Members not on the group can see early work in progress, or interim work that hasn't yet been updated to public drafts, and comment on those, but it's not significantly different than the public view, IMO. Drafts do indeed change substantially over their lifetime. That's why they're called drafts. XLink is a recent example of substantial change based both on internal decisions and general input. Working Groups face a catch-22: publish early, and despite disclaimers in the document, people adopt early and you find broken implementations when you do make changes. Publish late, and you're pressured to deliver. In between all that, WGs want to be as complete as they can, so people know where they're headed (and they don't induce mass panic). Cost: running WGs cost money. Teleconferences are held, face to face meetings are hosted and planned (yes, local hosts pay portions of those costs), staff salaries are paid, etc. Considerable work is done in these off-email fora where costs and logistical issues play a big part. I can't imagine an unlimited number of people in a teleconference or at a face to face meeting (or even in email work). Commitment: Joining a WG requires a 9-24 month commitment of (generally) at least 20% of your time. A full man-day a week. When you're a representative of a member company, it is part of your *job* to do this. Your company also commits to spending the resources required to fund your participation in teleconferences (the call to the bridge cost), your travel to and housing at face to face meetings, and any costs associated with giving the group a day a week of your time. That's not cheap. Invited experts can and do participate, making the same commitment. So that means time off from work (and funding) to go to face to face meetings, and at least an hour a week, normally during US working hours, for teleconferences, plus the remainder of that one man-day a week. So an invited expert either needs to have the full buy-in and funding from their employer, or they need to have sufficient personal funds to pay the expenses (plus be able to get time off). You can't participate half-way in a WG, say by just doing email and teleconferences. WGs meet face to face because considerable work gets done that way. That said, Interest Groups are available for many W3C activities where people *can* participate with a significantly lower level of commitment (normally just email). I'd urge interested parties to do so when possible. If you want to be recognized as a traditional invited expert, WG chairs and participants need to know about you and your desire to do so. I can't say pestering a chair or Dan Connolly will get you invited, but they need to know you exist and are willing. You do, however, need to meet that 'expert' status. Otherwise, there are some organizations that can provide for participation. HWG, when and where apprpropriate, sends members to WGs. You still have to have the same level of buy-in from your day-job as an invited expert -- you must be able to participate in calls, go to face to face meetings, etc. We pay costs, but it's not a free ride. And there's still the proof of expert status, and our required confidence in your representing us. So while the system may have some flaws, I think the W3C as a whole does a pretty good job. Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Aug 31 19:41:52 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Why namespaces? References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37C95E98.D5E54957@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Sure -- that's why you have a DOCTYPE declaration at the top, so that > validating processors can check the HTML against a DTD. This raises a major question about the utility of namespaces in a vocabulary that cannot be mixed with other vocabularies. What does the namespace add that you can't get from the doctype? And when we CAN mix XHTML with other vocabularies the precise details of the namespace will be vital for proper validation! So multiple namespaces will be necessary. > By the way, with SAX, XSL, DOM, or any other existing > infrastructure, three Namespaces does not mean three extra lines of > code; it means triple the code for every part that deals with elements > or attributes (three times as many XSL patterns, for example, not > just three more patterns). That is simply not true. Duplicated code can almost always be handled with abstraction: if( isHTML(localname, "P" ) ){ } In Python SAX you would't even need abstraction: if localname==P and NSURI in HTMLURIs: ... In XSL you would just use local names. URI-prefixed names are not useful because you can't mix XHTML with other vocabularies *anyhow*. If you really did want to use URIs you could do something along the lines of: <xsl:template match='P[uri()=="$html1" or uri()=="$html2" ...'> </xsl:template> Which is not optimal but neither is it brutal. XSL has no notion about interchangable namespace URIs and it should. On the other hand this brings us back to the question at the top. Why are you matching against namespace URIs at all? The stylesheet only needs to handle names in the HTML namespace because other namespaces may not be mixed in *anyhow*. You can check the root element and then quit! Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wunder at infoseek.com Tue Aug 31 19:44:05 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: new version of search engine for XML documents In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990831095731.00bfd170@corp.infoseek.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990831104235.03e42ac0@corp.infoseek.com> At 09:57 AM 8/31/99 -0700, Walter Underwood wrote: > >It ships with default mappings for: > > TEI > DocBk XML V3.1.3 > the Bosak religion collection > the Bosak Shakespear collection > FGDC Content Standard for Digital Geospatial Metadata Oops. I left one out. This DTD is also in the defaults: XMLNews-Story Sorry, David. There is also a 30-day free trial, which is another way to get answers to questions. wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Tue Aug 31 20:05:47 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990831124418.047c9ab0@mail.webgeek.com> Message-ID: <000b01bef3db$fa07dfc0$f3f6b5cf@zippy> Good points all. Everybody is clearly bright and well meaning (really!). So like where is the middle ground? Are there some targeted changes that can be effected without compromising anything essential for either side? For instance how about a new category of membership that is cheap enough for individuals or small companies to afford, but expensive enough to keep out spurious elements, and that requires some amount of 'expert' standing? This would make me pretty happy. Others? just a thought.. and since I do not want to burden this group anymore, I will not post again on this subject. cheers, erik > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Ann Navarro > Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 1999 10:15 AM > To: Erik James Freed; David Brownell > Cc: XML-Dev Mailing list > Subject: RE: why distinctions within XHTML? > > > At 09:40 AM 8/31/99 -0700, Erik James Freed wrote: > >As I read and listen to more and more of these w3c versus the masses > >battles, I have to confess that the > >missing element is the argument for *not* providing greater > >exposure/accountability. Is it: Exposure of > >proprietary information? Cost? Time? Quality? Personal attacks? Perhaps > >these concerns/realities could be > >overcome? > > This is, of course, only my personal opinion. I'm not speaking > for the W3C, > or in an official capacity for HWG. > > Primary issues: manageability, timeliness, cost, and the ability > to commit. > > I personally have never been involved in an IETF activity. My > understanding, from trusted colleagues that have, is that it is a > painfully > slow process, and often highly chaotic. (Speeds, of course, being > relative, > if you were to go on and compare it to ISO, etc). > > Manageability: even within the W3C, all members don't participate in each > WG. 10-25 individual representatives do. Members not on the group can see > early work in progress, or interim work that hasn't yet been updated to > public drafts, and comment on those, but it's not significantly different > than the public view, IMO. > > Drafts do indeed change substantially over their lifetime. That's why > they're called drafts. XLink is a recent example of substantial change > based both on internal decisions and general input. > > Working Groups face a catch-22: publish early, and despite disclaimers in > the document, people adopt early and you find broken implementations when > you do make changes. Publish late, and you're pressured to deliver. In > between all that, WGs want to be as complete as they can, so people know > where they're headed (and they don't induce mass panic). > > Cost: running WGs cost money. Teleconferences are held, face to face > meetings are hosted and planned (yes, local hosts pay portions of those > costs), staff salaries are paid, etc. Considerable work is done in these > off-email fora where costs and logistical issues play a big part. I can't > imagine an unlimited number of people in a teleconference or at a face to > face meeting (or even in email work). > > Commitment: Joining a WG requires a 9-24 month commitment of > (generally) at > least 20% of your time. A full man-day a week. When you're a > representative > of a member company, it is part of your *job* to do this. Your > company also > commits to spending the resources required to fund your participation in > teleconferences (the call to the bridge cost), your travel to and housing > at face to face meetings, and any costs associated with giving the group a > day a week of your time. That's not cheap. Invited experts can and do > participate, making the same commitment. So that means time off from work > (and funding) to go to face to face meetings, and at least an hour a week, > normally during US working hours, for teleconferences, plus the remainder > of that one man-day a week. So an invited expert either needs to have the > full buy-in and funding from their employer, or they need to have > sufficient personal funds to pay the expenses (plus be able to get time > off). You can't participate half-way in a WG, say by just doing email and > teleconferences. WGs meet face to face because considerable work gets done > that way. > > That said, Interest Groups are available for many W3C activities where > people *can* participate with a significantly lower level of commitment > (normally just email). I'd urge interested parties to do so when > possible. > > If you want to be recognized as a traditional invited expert, WG > chairs and > participants need to know about you and your desire to do so. I can't say > pestering a chair or Dan Connolly will get you invited, but they need to > know you exist and are willing. You do, however, need to meet > that 'expert' > status. > > Otherwise, there are some organizations that can provide for > participation. > HWG, when and where apprpropriate, sends members to WGs. You still have to > have the same level of buy-in from your day-job as an invited > expert -- you > must be able to participate in calls, go to face to face meetings, etc. We > pay costs, but it's not a free ride. And there's still the proof of expert > status, and our required confidence in your representing us. > > So while the system may have some flaws, I think the W3C as a whole does a > pretty good job. > > Ann > > > --- > > Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials > Coming in September --- Mastering XML > > Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com > Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org > Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Aug 31 20:25:50 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Why namespaces? In-Reply-To: <37C95E98.D5E54957@prescod.net> References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> <37C95E98.D5E54957@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14284.7346.468420.438279@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > David Megginson wrote: > > > > Sure -- that's why you have a DOCTYPE declaration at the top, so that > > validating processors can check the HTML against a DTD. > > This raises a major question about the utility of namespaces in a > vocabulary that cannot be mixed with other vocabularies. What does > the namespace add that you can't get from the doctype? Who said that they cannot be mixed? XHTML documents cannot (yet) contain markup from other Namespaces, but anyone else designing a document type is free to include HTML markup in theirs (say, for documentation in a schema). So, the answer is that Namespaces give us non-local identity. With Namespaces (or Architectural Forms, or something similar) I can look at an arbitrary document and answer questions like "Is this an HTML <cite> element?" An ability to answer this kind of question is the minimal foundation for processing, searching, and querying large heterogenous sets of XML documents (as on the Web, for example). Without it, we're sunk. In fact, without a global naming scheme, I cannot even reliably answer the following question for an arbitrary XML document (say, text/xml): "Is this an HTML document?" The DOCTYPE declaration doesn't help at all here, as Eliot has repeatedly (and convincingly) pointed out -- DTDs are for guided-authoring and for validation, not for recognition. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From xml at searchtools.com Tue Aug 31 20:38:44 1999 From: xml at searchtools.com (Avi Rappoport) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Searching XML In-Reply-To: <37CB4625.669193D7@auckland.ac.nz> References: <37CB4625.669193D7@auckland.ac.nz> Message-ID: <v04205504b3f1cde698b1@[171.66.196.146]> At 3:04 PM +1200 8/31/1999, Warren Hedley wrote: >Hey team > >I have a number of HTML and XML files that are used to generate >our website. We want to add search functionality to this site, >so that we can look for keywords and text. > >It has proven too slow to search through all of the files, so >the method I suspect we would use, would be to generate an >additional database containing all of our main data (perhaps >all words longer than 4 letters), that we could quickly look >through to generate search results. > >Does anyone know of an implentation of search functionality >along these lines (Perl modules would be nice.) Or can anyone >suggest a better plan of attack? If you want to look for simple keywords and text, without recognizing any fields other than <title>, you could modify any of the free Perl scripts that create index files, such as Matt's Simple Search, Selena Sol's, Xavatoria, etc. (see listings on my site at <http://www.searchtools.com/tools/tools-perl.html>). For larger sites, Ultraseek also recognizes XML: <http://software.infoseek.com/products/ultraseek/ultratop.htm>. Best of luck, Avi _______________________________________________________ Guide to Local Site, Intranet, and Portal Search Engines: <http://www.searchtools.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wunder at infoseek.com Tue Aug 31 21:33:53 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: new version of search engine for XML documents In-Reply-To: <1847.990831@fdc.co.uk> References: <3.0.5.32.19990831104235.03e42ac0@corp.infoseek.com> <3.0.5.32.19990831104235.03e42ac0@corp.infoseek.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990831123210.03cfd7f0@corp.infoseek.com> At 08:21 PM 8/31/99 +0100, id wrote: > >Might I also suggest that you add the Netscape RSS 0.91 DTD to this >list - there are probably more XML documents utilising this format on >the web than any other. I'm aware of that, but RSS is more of an index to documents rather than a text document that someone would want as a relavant hit. The search engine should be indexing the documents themselves rather than a an index of the documents. It is unfortunate that RSS doesn't use XLink and doesn't use ISO 8601 dates. On the other hand, the default mapping handles RSS pretty well, mapping the title and description elements. wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Tue Aug 31 21:54:12 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Why namespaces? References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> <37C95E98.D5E54957@prescod.net> Message-ID: <015401bef3e9$7f939320$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> Paul Prescod <paul@prescod.net> wrote: > David Megginson wrote: > > Sure -- that's why you have a DOCTYPE declaration at the top, so that > > validating processors can check the HTML against a DTD. > > This raises a major question about the utility of namespaces in a > vocabulary that cannot be mixed with other vocabularies. What does the > namespace add that you can't get from the doctype? > > And when we CAN mix XHTML with other vocabularies the precise details of > the namespace will be vital for proper validation! So multiple > namespaces will be necessary. I would presume that to mix XHTML with/inside another namespace, one would need to create a DTD for the "mixed" document that would somehow refer to (parts of) the XHTML DTD. It would then depend on which DTD variant he refers to, instead of on the namespace. Of course one can't do this sort of trick today with DTDs, but it might be possible with XSchemas, at least some day. There's so much churn going about distinguishing between three things: 1. Unique naming - making sure that one can call "areElementsTheSame(name1, name2)". 2. Grammar/Syntax/Structure constraints - "isDocumentValid(rootElement, DTD)", "addDefaultsToDocument(rootElement, DTD)". 3. Semantics - doing whatever the application is for. I would like to think that the intention was for namespaces to live exclusively in level 1 (call it "lex"), DTDs/Schemas in level 2 (call it "yacc"), and level 3 is the application itself. This is maybe simplistic but I found it to be a great help in figuring out my position on some of the issues raised in the relevant threads. In the XHTML multi-namespace issue, for example, I'd rather the three XHTML variants were defined at level 2 - possible sets of constraints and defaults for a document, such that the application (say, the browser) should not in principle have to worry about which variant was used. So far, I've seen no reason to abandon this view as a guide; it has obvious advantages and no serious disadvantages I can see. I quickly found out, typically by implication, that this view is not shared by others - some of whom I hesitate to disagree with without a very good reason. However, it is hard to figure out the exact "world view" of someone just by his position on a specific issue, so I don't have a clear grasp of a coherent alternative view. I'd greatly appreciate it if someone posted one; it is hard to disagree with someone you don't fully understand :-) What unsettles me is that I can't figure out the W3C view on the matter. The namespaces spec, for example, seems to follow the above view. The proposed XHTML recommendation obviously doesn't. It could be that there are differing views within the W3C itself. Of course this could be just my ignorance speaking, but I doubt that. If there was a clear decision on the overall view, the debate would have been on whether the W3C view is right or wrong, not whether feature X should be this way or that (the chances of there not being a debate at all are pretty slim :-) So, anyone care to make a crack at defining, in one or two paragraphs, an alternative view? And/or refer me to some W3C paper which clarifies what the "official view" is? Then we could start arguing - sorry, debating - about the core concepts instead of about each new feature as it appears in each new recommendation. After all, if there's no clear decision about this, we'd end up with features pulling XML in different directions - not a recipe for a healthy standard. Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at docuverse.com Tue Aug 31 22:08:38 1999 From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <000b01bef3db$fa07dfc0$f3f6b5cf@zippy> Message-ID: <000101bef3ed$12c8c9a0$5199fea9@w21tp> Two comments for us: 1. We are diverging into W3C-as-evil-empire topic here. Lets focus and remain on topic. 2. The scene looks like a gang of rowdy engineers ganging up on one woman. Lets get our civility under control. and one comment for Ann: 1. Could you comment on where rest of the XHTML WG/IG feels about this issue and how flexible they are on the position they have taken with the latest draft? In other words, is this issue important enough to the XHTML WG to risk throwing the baby out with the bath water? Best, Don Park - mailto:donpark@docuverse.com Docuverse - http://www.docuverse.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Tue Aug 31 22:13:24 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Why namespaces? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990831131606.00ce0a80@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 09:46 PM 8/31/99 +0200, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >1. Unique naming - making sure that one can call "areElementsTheSame(name1, >name2)". >2. Grammar/Syntax/Structure constraints - "isDocumentValid(rootElement, >DTD)", "addDefaultsToDocument(rootElement, DTD)". >3. Semantics - doing whatever the application is for. > >I would like to think that the intention was for namespaces to live >exclusively in level 1 (call it "lex"), DTDs/Schemas in level 2 (call it >"yacc"), and level 3 is the application itself. Hey, very good. I think this is an extremely accurate and deep statement of how things ought to be. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 22:14:20 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: ATTN: Please comment on XHTML (before it's too late) References: <3.0.32.19990829100332.00cd1310@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37CC382D.C8444B51@pacbell.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 07:19 PM 8/28/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >For those of you who haven't noticed, XHTML has gone to Proposed > >Recommendation (PR) status at the W3C: > > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1 > > > >Unlike the last XHTML Working Draft, this PR has reverted to defining > >*three* separate XHTML Namespace URIs (transitional, strict, and > >frameset) with the threat of more HTML Namespaces in the future. > > Just wanted to place on the record the fact that I agree totally with > David. Since an HTML <p> or <h2> or <br> has the same import for 99.99999% > of applications that care about this tag vocabulary at all (yes, Ann, even > if it says align='center'), it's just nuts to make them pretend that HTML > is three different languages. In case it's unclear ... me three! ;-) Apologies for spending more electrons in this cause, but it does get rather annoying to see W3C reversing the resolution that had been in the previous public draft (5/5/1999), without offering any sort of motivation for the change. (Other than perhaps "because we can force this down your throats, want to, and will do so".) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mlepley at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 31 22:54:39 1999 From: mlepley at worldnet.att.net (Mike Lepley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: XML Parsers for Java -- Recommendations? Message-ID: <020901bef3fc$abacf6a0$ce0c440a@Lepley> I'm going to use an XML parser for my code. I was interested in different XML to DOM parsers for Java, and wondered if anyone had some recommendations / non-recommendations. Is there a parser that you couldn't live without? Or how about a parser that makes you want to kill the programmer? :-) Thanks in advance, Mike xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 23:00:01 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: Why namespaces? In-Reply-To: <015401bef3e9$7f939320$4602a8c0@capella.co.il> References: <4.1.19990830100716.0479f220@mail.webgeek.com> <027701bef28d$1d59fda0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <199908301432.KAA16791@hesketh.net> <4.1.19990830105549.047d0840@mail.webgeek.com> <14282.40586.795647.930495@localhost.localdomain> <37C95E98> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831161146.0484fd40@mail.webgeek.com> At 09:46 PM 8/31/99 +0200, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: < And/or refer me to some W3C paper which clarifies what the >"official view" is? I don't think you'll find one. The Namespaces rec was as controversial then as it is now, and opinions are still widely divided. Ann (personal view) --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Tue Aug 31 23:00:12 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:31 2004 Subject: why distinctions within XHTML? In-Reply-To: <000101bef3ed$12c8c9a0$5199fea9@w21tp> References: <000b01bef3db$fa07dfc0$f3f6b5cf@zippy> Message-ID: <4.1.19990831162252.048515b0@mail.webgeek.com> At 01:10 PM 8/31/99 -0700, Don Park wrote: >1. Could you comment on where rest of the XHTML WG/IG feels about this issue >and how flexible they are on the position they have taken with the latest >draft? In other words, is this issue important enough to the XHTML WG to >risk throwing the baby out with the bath water? I don't feel it's appropriate for me to speak for the group. However, since the PR does have three, that should speak for at least that much consensus (yes, there was/is a minority opinion). Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Coming in September --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/services/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mettlus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 31 23:05:11 1999 From: mettlus at yahoo.com (vishal sharan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:32 2004 Subject: Schema?!(xml) Message-ID: <19990831210732.5848.rocketmail@web113.yahoomail.com> Hello everyone! can I get some help in validating a schema?? I have trying to write a schema in xml, I wanna validate it so that its a correct schema. Thx Vishal The attempted schema is here <?xml version="1.0"?> <PKT N="WDogSystemInit"> <NSP N="SKUP"> <NSP N="DataPump"> <GRP> <HDR> <DSC T="LST" N="bla bla bla" R="t"> <DFM/> </DSC> </HDR> <BDY> <LST N="bla bla bla"> <L I="1">googoo</L> <L I="2">abracadabra</L> <L I="3">open sesame</L> <L I="4">baboom</L> <L I="5">break on through to the other side</L> </LST> </BDY> </GRP> </NSP> <!-- End of the data pump namespace --> <NSP N="WDog"> <GRP> <COMMENTS> <P><L>WDog is a COM component process space.</L> <L>In the event of exceptional behavior -- i.e. error conditions etc. it will take actions according to the initialization instructions it has been insantiated with.</L> </P> </COMMENTS> <HDR><!-- contains descriptors --> <!-- descriptor for one pathname - path value record pair --> <DSC T="RCD" N="PathRecord" NSP="SKUP::WDog"> <DFM T="F" I="2"/> <F N="NameOfPath" R="t"><DFM T="str" MXL="63" MIN="32" MAX="120"/></F> <F N="Path" R="t"><DFM T="str" MXL="255" MIN="32" MAX="120"/></F> </DSC> <!-- descriptor for a table of PathRecord type records --> <DSC T="TBL" N="Paths" ID="0F46F8D3-5693-11d3-A67C-0050046C4B19" NSP="SKUP::WDog" R="t"> <DFM T="RCD" N="PathRecord" MIN="0" MAX="10"/> </DSC> <!-- descriptor for a SysMsg table & its' record type --> <DSC T="RCD" N="SysMsgRec" ID="040911A4-D2DB-4a84-BD58-0B1012FFDF19" NSP="SKUP::WDog"> <DFM T="F" I="4"/> <F N="MsgNumber" R="t"><DFM T="UINT" MIN="0" MAX="100" /></F> <F N="MsgDescriptor" R="t"><DFM T="str" MXL="255" MIN="32" MAX="120" /></F> <F N="MsgTypeCode" R="t"><DFM T="char" SET="(,){I,W,E,N}" /></F> <F N="OptionalMsg" R="f"><DFM T="str" MXL="1024" MIN="32" MAX="120" /></F> </DSC> <!-- descriptor for a System message table --> <DSC T="TBL" N="SysMsg" ID="1CA51EA1-5699-11d3-A67C-0050046C4B19" NSP="SKUP::WDog" R="t"> <DFM T="RCD" N="SysMsgRec" MIN="0" MAX="100"/> </DSC> </HDR> <BDY> <TBL N="Paths" ID="0F46F8D3-5693-11d3-A67C-0050046C4B19"> <R I="1"><F I="1">RootPath</F><F I="2">D:\~Dev\WatchDog</F></R> <R I="2"><F I="1">LogPath</F><F I="2">log</F></R> <R I="3"><F I="1">ExceptionPath</F><F I="2">Err</F></R> </TBL> <TBL N="SysMsg" ID="1CA51EA1-5699-11d3-A67C-0050046C4B19"> <R I="1"><F I="1">01</F><F I="2">Null Message</F><F I="3">N</F><F I="4"/></R> <R I="2"><F I="1">02</F><F I="2">okay</F><F I="3">I</F><F I="4">this is an optional message for this particular system message</F></R> <R I="3"> <F I="1">03</F> <F I="2">okay false</F> <F I="3">I</F> <F I="4"/></R> <R I="4"> <F I="1">04</F> <F I="2">Unknown Error</F> <F I="3">W</F> <F I="4">this is an unknown error optional message!!!!!</F></R> </TBL> </BDY> </GRP> </NSP> <!-- end of the WDog namespace --> </NSP> <!-- end of the skup namespace --> </PKT> <!-- end of the WDogSysInit packet --> __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Aug 31 23:52:05 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:32 2004 Subject: Namespace handling in XML Processors Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E54016CCFE@master.design-intelligence.com> > schen@falconwing.com wrote: > > > But at least I can recognize the utility of namespaces in XSLT, which > > would be more difficult to handle without this facility. Less clear to > me > > is the raging XHTML debate in the parallel thread(s). > > > > Sorry for stirring up anything that was rehashed before, I've only just > > subscribed to the list. Thanks again. > I did find the use of namespaces an elegant solution to the backquote problem of Lisp, separating code to assemble a data structure from the data structure itself. Marc B. McDonald Principal Software Scientist <<...>> Design Intelligence, Inc. 1111 Third Avenue, Suite 1500 Seattle, WA 98101 marc.mcdonald@design-intelligence.com Ph: 206.343-7797 Fax: 206.343.7750 http://www.design-intelligence.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Aug 31 23:50:55 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:14:32 2004 Subject: XML Parsers for Java -- Recommendations? References: <020901bef3fc$abacf6a0$ce0c440a@Lepley> Message-ID: <37CC4E5A.7AAA3FCF@pacbell.net> Mike Lepley wrote: > > I'm going to use an XML parser for my code. I was interested in different > XML to DOM parsers for Java, and wondered if anyone had some recommendations > / non-recommendations. > > Is there a parser that you couldn't live without? Or how about a parser > that makes you want to kill the programmer? :-) Have a look at the parser conformance test results on my web page at http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ Those are for SAX interfaces, but many of the packages that can produce a DOM tree use the same core engine that the SAX API excercises. That is, the same level of XML conformance will normally come through DOM. If anything makes me want to kill a programmer, it's the level of gratuitous nonconformance that a few of those parsers show! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)