From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Jul 1 01:01:47 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> <3778D1CC.225B5BE7@prescod.net> Message-ID: <377AA220.2EC4D101@allette.com.au> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > Turning to Marcus, who said in a previous posting that: > > >>> People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > >>> working with the structure, > > And I replied: > > >> I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't > >> exist by covering it under formatting issues. > > And now you say: > > > The user doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist - they still select elements and > > assign attribute values. > > So they *do* work with the structure, after all. Explicitly. The two sentences have been taken completely out of context - the first was not considering to the use of an editor, the second was specifically dealing with document creation using a structured editor. To clarify: a) someone drafting legislation without the aid of an XML editor is creating a structured document (because all documents are structured) but is principally interested in the content, b) someone drafting legislation with the aid of an XML editor is creating a structured document, and is concerned with applying the correct structure as well as getting the content right. Option b) is more work, so the structural part is sometimes undertaken as a separate process by one who is more experienced with structure and less knowledgeable about drafting legislation. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Thu Jul 1 02:02:51 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: <003a01bec355$4e02dec0$334ffea9@litebook> XML seems to be devoted to putting data markup into documents so programs, like search engines, can understand the content on those documents. But what of forms processing? Lets say we had a DTD with a list of data conforming to the DTD (many data items). This data could represent a name file with lots of customer name and contact information. The form could be a letter for that data to be merged into. The DTD is designed to represent the customer name file data. ie DTD defining field details in customer Name file Name file data Fred Bloggs 123 some street Some Suburb Bunyip Victoria 4100 Australia Brian Browns Another street Another Suburb DrouinVictoria 4100 Australia Document XSL Litebook Computers P/L (letter head etc.......) Dear As you have probably heard in the media XML is the comming standard for Internet but how will it work for other functions like mail merge, document interchange such as invoices, statements order form processing from company to company - accounting system to accounting system? Does every accounting system have to store its data in relational or other structure and do a transformation to XML or can the accounting system store its data in XML format, even though it might not be as efficient a data storage method. ------------------------------------- There are parallel data storage formats PICK uses an attribute marker for data storage and so can have a storage structure which is a linited syntax tree Attribute marker characters are chars 255, 254, 253 Eg: customer name | address 1 | Suburb | State | Postcode | Invoices | 12312312/ 1233423 / 455664 / 464646 / 46456 / 786886 / 77669 / 8790890 / 8908008/ ~ where | is char 254 and / is char 253 ~ is char 255 (end of record) This structure allows pick programmers to store a unlimited list of invoice numbers in the customer's record. ------------------------------------- Another data structure type is MUMPS where the storage unit is unique key = Data item, The key is a sparse array eg Global ^Debtors would have ^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123) = "123 | 25/12/90 | $230.00 | $23.00 |" ^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123, item1) = "Sof123 | Software program for parsing XML | 1only | $220.00" MUMPS has a $piece function string = $P(^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123, item1) ,"|",2) would yeild string = "Software program for parsing XML" ------------------------------------- To me it appears that XML offers the programmer a much more sophisicated data structure than any previously imagined. A well structered symble table of variables seems to offer the programmer a much better easier applications building approach BUT there is a tangle of data and screen markup like and form details like the letter head etc.. which is not data and not interesting to the applications programmer, only of interest to the viewer. How would one keep real data separate from display markups and screen text words like "INVOICE" etc???? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990701/38556b47/attachment.htm From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Jul 1 03:09:04 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: <003a01bec355$4e02dec0$334ffea9@litebook> Message-ID: <377AC01A.FBD4377A@allette.com.au> Trevor Croll wrote: > To me it appears that XML offers the programmer a much more > sophisicated data structure than any previously imagined. A well > structered symble table of variables seems to offer the programmer a > much better easier applications building approach BUT there is a > tangle of data and screen markup like and form > details like the letter head etc.. which is not data and not > interesting to the applications programmer, only of interest to the > viewer. How would one keep real data separate from display markups and > screen text words like "INVOICE" etc???? One way would be to use something like Acrobat Forms from Adobe. They allow you to define value pairs, which are a named field and a value. You can create a PDF form with blank spaces for entering data. Submitting the form allows you to obtain the value pairs alone, without making you sort through the extras you would have to deal with in an HTML form. The opposite is also possible - you can merge a PDF form with value pairs, making it possible to display the data as you deem appropriate. Although this isn't yet an XML solution, my understanding is that XML support is planned for Acrobat. Also, the conversion between the syntax used for value pairs and XML is trivial, so it could be considered to be a delivery mechanism at the back end of an XML system. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jul 1 05:57:39 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <002d01bec36e$28d243c0$10f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Simon St.Laurent >Sadly, all the NetNanny-type software out there will probably block out >your code think it's about something other than parsing. And someone else already uses XXX for an XML technology. It doesn't matter, our XXX is just a toy at the moment. XXXX is a kind of beer from Queensland, named supposedly because their customers might be too drunk to read anything more complicated :-) Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jul 1 05:53:18 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <002201bec36d$7f49d7f0$10f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Paul Prescod >Rick Jelliffe wrote: >> Not to be contrarian, but I would love an XML editor that hid structure >> from me. > >But you go on to describe one that allows you to get at structure >*through* style: Yes, so "hid as much as possible" would have been better. To use style attributes to cull the potential candidates, hopefully to 1. Names would only be presented at the very end. For example, in a paragraph, selecting style>big>bold would close the current paragraph and section, open an new section, and open a heading element. If the DTD only had one kind of heading, that would be the only choice. >> Just like a coloured map, it would be great if all inline elements were >> associated with a font or style, and that I could use the style menus >> to drill down to the allowed generic elements in context. > >Maps are for navigation, not data entry. Finding an element type name is navigation, for data entry. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jul 1 06:49:55 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990630215148.012fc740@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:02 PM 7/1/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >XXXX is a kind of beer from Queensland, named supposedly because >their customers might be too drunk to read anything more >complicated :-) Hope the software's better than the beer. You could name it after a *good* Aussie beer, but VB's kind of been used. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Thu Jul 1 14:14:20 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: <003a01bec355$4e02dec0$334ffea9@litebook> <377AC01A.FBD4377A@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <002d01bec3bb$2f04d8a0$334ffea9@litebook> I was looking at writing an application which interprets XML for general distribution - the purpose is filing of forms data. (Many peculiar requirements exist where record keeping is required with computer ability to search and analize data quickly.) I was looking at writing a tool set for servicing these peculiar requirements using XML Is this feasible? I have looked at Xpointer and Xlink but do not fully understand if these can be used to pull data into a XSL form from a XML data base for display purposes and put changed data back. Is XML good enough to be able to provide a data structure for storing raw data and using XSL display the data in its many views that would be required in an office like application )customer notes, mail merge, appointments, todos. calendar, invoices etc..... ie a filing system of XML forms where the data is kept for all records and a view is kept once for each view of the data. Is what I'm looking at a reasonable thing to be looking at XML for even if I will write the whole thing myself perhaps even adding some pecularities to the language to produce a result? ----- Original Message ----- From: Marcus Carr To: Trevor Croll Cc: Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 11:10 AM Subject: Re: XML for forms > > Trevor Croll wrote: > > > To me it appears that XML offers the programmer a much more > > sophisicated data structure than any previously imagined. A well > > structered symble table of variables seems to offer the programmer a > > much better easier applications building approach BUT there is a > > tangle of data and screen markup like and form > > details like the letter head etc.. which is not data and not > > interesting to the applications programmer, only of interest to the > > viewer. How would one keep real data separate from display markups and > > screen text words like "INVOICE" etc???? > > One way would be to use something like Acrobat Forms from Adobe. They > allow you to define value pairs, which are a named field and a value. > You can create a PDF form with blank spaces for entering data. > Submitting the form allows you to obtain the value pairs alone, without > making you sort through the extras you would have to deal with in an > HTML form. The opposite is also possible - you can merge a PDF form with > value pairs, making it possible to display the data as you deem > appropriate. > > Although this isn't yet an XML solution, my understanding is that XML > support is planned for Acrobat. Also, the conversion between the syntax > used for value pairs and XML is trivial, so it could be considered to be > a delivery mechanism at the back end of an XML system. > > > -- > Regards, > > Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au > ___________________________________________________________________ > Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au > ___________________________________________________________________ > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > - Einstein XML seems to be devoted to putting data markup into documents so programs, like search engines, can understand the content on those documents. But what of forms processing? Lets say we had a DTD with a list of data conforming to the DTD (many data items). This data could represent a name file with lots of customer name and contact information. The form could be a letter for that data to be merged into. The DTD is designed to represent the customer name file data. ie DTD defining field details in customer Name file Name file data Fred Bloggs 123 some street Some Suburb Bunyip Victoria 4100 Australia Brian Browns Another street Another Suburb DrouinVictoria 4100 Australia Document XSL Litebook Computers P/L (letter head etc.......) Dear As you have probably heard in the media XML is the comming standard for Internet but how will it work for other functions like mail merge, document interchange such as invoices, statements order form processing from company to company - accounting system to accounting system? Does every accounting system have to store its data in relational or other structure and do a transformation to XML or can the accounting system store its data in XML format, even though it might not be as efficient a data storage method. ------------------------------------- There are parallel data storage formats PICK uses an attribute marker for data storage and so can have a storage structure which is a linited syntax tree Attribute marker characters are chars 255, 254, 253 Eg: customer name | address 1 | Suburb | State | Postcode | Invoices | 12312312/ 1233423 / 455664 / 464646 / 46456 / 786886 / 77669 / 8790890 / 8908008/ ~ where | is char 254 and / is char 253 ~ is char 255 (end of record) This structure allows pick programmers to store a unlimited list of invoice numbers in the customer's record. ------------------------------------- Another data structure type is MUMPS where the storage unit is unique key = Data item, The key is a sparse array eg Global ^Debtors would have ^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123) = "123 | 25/12/90 | $230.00 | $23.00 |" ^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123, item1) = "Sof123 | Software program for parsing XML | 1only | $220.00" MUMPS has a $piece function string = $P(^Debtors(ShortName, Litebook, Inv 123, item1) ,"|",2) would yeild string = "Software program for parsing XML" ------------------------------------- To me it appears that XML offers the programmer a much more sophisicated data structure than any previously imagined. A well structered symble table of variables seems to offer the programmer a much better easier applications building approach BUT there is a tangle of data and screen markup like and form details like the letter head etc.. which is not data and not interesting to the applications programmer, only of interest to the viewer. How would one keep real data separate from display markups and screen text words like "INVOICE" etc???? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jul 1 17:43:19 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990630215148.012fc740@pop.intergate.bc.ca> from "Tim Bray" at Jun 30, 99 09:52:07 pm Message-ID: <199907011610.MAA23553@locke.ccil.org> Tim Bray scripsit: > Hope the software's better than the beer. You could name it after > a *good* Aussie beer, but VB's kind of been used. -T. Ah, but remember the Oz Law Of Export: keep the good stuff for ourselves. The quality of an export product from Australia is no indication of the quality of similarly named products *in* Australia. (I say this on general grounds, since I don't drink beer and have no personal opinions about the quality of any of it.) -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From John.Martin at ncmail.net Thu Jul 1 20:02:09 1999 From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: DTD question Message-ID: <377BAD96.4FCDA51E@ncmail.net> Greetings. I'm new to this list and to XML. In a DTD, can I base the inclusion of an optional element on an attribute? For example, I have: Is there a way to indicate in the DTD that if the attribute MESSAGE-TYPE=RESPONSE, then I want the elements Service-Completion-Code and Service-Reason-Code to be required instead of optional? Thanks. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From John.Martin at ncmail.net Thu Jul 1 20:02:31 1999 From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: Passing XML data between applications Message-ID: <377BADBB.2FFA8E61@ncmail.net> I am trying to understand how applications can use XML to pass data to one another. Here is a scenario: Say I have middleware that applications must use to pass data back and forth. The required data structure if you're going to use the middleware is: 01 01 ABCDEF As the middleware, we don't care how the application structures the data in the Application-Data tag. It will most likely be different for each application. We're trying to write a DTD to describe this. So, for example, one application using the middleware, may have this description of the Application-Data: 123456789012 Smith John 12/25/1995 Another application using the middleware might describe their Application-Data this way: Smith John 95 Madison Ave New YorkNew York00921 12/25/1995 I'm trying to understand how you would describe this situation with a DTD. Would/can you have two DOCTYPE statements, such as: Where the NCSB DTD is (basically): > and another APPL DTD which is (basically): Or how does this work? I am a very "concrete/practical" learner and almost all the examples I see in these XML books are in the "abstract/theoritica" realm. And I can't even find an abstract discussion of this particular kind of situation. Being new to the newsgroup and XML, I'd appreciate any pointers if anyone knows of a good "practical" guide to XML development and/or if there is a better place to ask these type of questions. Thanks, John xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Ruth at jpl.nasa.gov Thu Jul 1 20:52:43 1999 From: Ruth at jpl.nasa.gov (Ruth Bergman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: DTD question In-Reply-To: <377BAD96.4FCDA51E@ncmail.net> Message-ID: <3.0.3.32.19990701115139.009fbe90@pop.jpl.nasa.gov> At 02:04 PM 7/1/1999 -0400, John Martin wrote: > >In a DTD, can I base the inclusion of an optional element on an >attribute? For example, I have: > >Service-Completion-Code?, Service-Reason-Code?)> > > No. I recall a previous discussion about this issue if you care to look it up in the archives. A possible solution is Ruth. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Jul 1 23:17:45 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:38 2004 Subject: Passing XML data between applications References: <377BADBB.2FFA8E61@ncmail.net> Message-ID: <023601bec406$26f87ea0$0b2e249b@Synapse> John Martin wrote: > I am trying to understand how applications can use XML to pass data to > one another. Once you have your data packaged as XML documents, you need to select a protocol for exchange of the information between applications. For async transmission, the XML document can be packaged in a MIME message and transmitted via SMTP. For sync transmission the XML can be packaged in a MIME message and transmitted via HTTP. You can also define a custom protocol and pass the data via for example a socket. Whether or not you need to define a DTD for the messages and/or validate the messages at each end depends on the needs of your application. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jul 2 05:03:05 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <01a001bec437$7128d7a0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >Ah, but remember the Oz Law Of Export: keep the good stuff for ourselves. >The quality of an export product from Australia is no indication >of the quality of similarly named products *in* Australia. To wit, I am relocating to the US where I should not be taken as any indication of the quality of other Jameses in Australia. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jul 2 05:13:50 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: DTD question Message-ID: <01a601bec438$f3242ec0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >Greetings. I'm new to this list and to XML. Welcome. >In a DTD, can I base the inclusion of an optional element on an >attribute? No, you can't. >For example, I have: > >Service-Completion-Code?, Service-Reason-Code?)> > > >Is there a way to indicate in the DTD that if the attribute >MESSAGE-TYPE=RESPONSE, then I want the elements Service-Completion-Code >and Service-Reason-Code to be required instead of optional? This kind of subclassing would either (1) have to be checked by your application (2) have to be achieved using different element types (1) is not necessarily a bad thing, as you almost always end up doing some kind of checking at the application stage anyway. (2) would work something like: The fact that a Request or a Response can occur wherever you previously allowed an NCSB-Message could be modelled by wrapping the Requests and Responses in an NCSB-Message. That way you capture the restrictions on where NCSB-Messages can occur as well as differentiating between Requests and Responses: Alternatively, you could just put "(Request|Response)" wherever you previously had NCSB-Message in content specifications (possibly via a parameter entity reference). Hope this helps. James Tauber xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jul 2 05:27:47 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Passing XML data between applications Message-ID: <01af01bec43a$d7a1b940$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >I'm trying to understand how you would describe this situation with a >DTD. Would/can you have two DOCTYPE statements, such as: > > > > No, you can't do this, but you can do something similar. You write your NCSB DTD like this: Note the parameter entity "app-data" which is currently EMPTY. You can overide the value of app-data by declaring a new value *before* the above DTD. So your actual document could look like: ]> 01 01 ABCDEF 123456789012 Smith John 12/25/1995 You could put the internal subset above in a separate entity. So you then have a document that begins: %app-dtd; ]> Where APPL.dtd reads: or whatever is appropriate. >Or how does this work? I am a very "concrete/practical" learner and >almost all the examples I see in these XML books are in the >"abstract/theoritica" realm. And I can't even find an abstract >discussion of this particular kind of situation. Being new to the >newsgroup and XML, I'd appreciate any pointers if anyone knows of a good >"practical" guide to XML development and/or if there is a better place >to ask these type of questions. I have just started on a document that explains exactly the sorts of things I've mentioned above and in my previous response to you. It will be online, probably at either xmlinfo.com or schema.net (I haven't decided yet). Stay tuned. James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Fri Jul 2 11:29:52 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <004c01bec3e0$72a43f90$53f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <377C84F8.23B3CA89@freenet.co.uk> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > > From: Philip Nye > > > >Why should selecting 14pt Bold Green be easier than selecting "Contact > >Name" in the right context. > > Because: > 1) you have to remember the name, this is difficult if there are more > than 7 > names in frequent use; > 2) if there are more than 7 elements at any one level, there is a > selection > problem for GUIs: style provides a way to key hierarchy that provides > reinforcing feedback; I think we are in pretty close agreement. The idea of using visual style cues to direct the user towards the correct choices is powerful. Getting these cues from the style sheet is clever. My rant was largely directed at MS Windows which seems to force silly user interface design in many cases and I suspect that you are thinking in Windows terms. A particular infuriation are pop up lists which have a couple more elements than lines in the list and hence a scroll bar etc. This often occurs when there is plenty of screen space which could show the whole list. Something like this makes the idea of making a simple selection suddenly seem a huge problem. The Mac's pop up menu is so much better as are various other designs I have seen. Incidentally, where does the magic number 7 come from? > > >Why not display "Contact Name" in 14pt Bold Green as a visual cue. > > Sure: but you would have to make a special pallette up probably. > And why not? I have seen plenty of font menus which display the font names in the fonts themselves, or the Word Style menu which shows the style name in the style. But then I am not in the business of writing Windows front ends so I would say that! > My other bugbear is that often when editing it is not the element > that you want, but an element with a particular set of attributes: > if there is > type ( big | fat ) #REQUIRED > > I would prefer menu choices: > element>fat person > element>big person > or > element>person>fat > element>person>big > > The GUI does not need to follow the DTD slavishly. I agree absolutely. Philip Nye xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri Jul 2 14:30:20 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990702083125.007f0410@polaris.net> At 10:23 AM 7/2/1999 +0100, Philip Nye wrote: >Rick Jelliffe wrote: ... >> 1) you have to remember the name, this is difficult if there are more >> than 7 names in frequent use; >> 2) if there are more than 7 elements at any one level, there is a >> selection >> problem for GUIs: style provides a way to key hierarchy that provides >> reinforcing feedback; ... >Incidentally, where does the magic number 7 come from? When I was at AT&T years ago, there was a company legend (possibly apocryphal) about the length of US telephone numbers. According to this legend, Bell Labs had surveyed large numbers of customers and determined that, on average, people could remember 7 "things," plus or minus 3, about another "thing." Ergo, a phone number would optimally be made up of: a 4-digit "main portion," sans exchange and area code; a 3-digit exchange; and a 3-digit area code. This was supposedly in descending order of need to remember the additional portions, assuming that you'd need primarily to call people in your own exchange, followed by people in your area code but outside your exchange, followed by people in other area codes. I don't know where Rick's magic 7 comes from. ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Fri Jul 2 14:48:24 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990702083125.007f0410@polaris.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John E. Simpson wrote: > At 10:23 AM 7/2/1999 +0100, Philip Nye wrote: > >Rick Jelliffe wrote: > ... > >> 1) you have to remember the name, this is difficult if there are more > >> than 7 names in frequent use; > >> 2) if there are more than 7 elements at any one level, there is a > >> selection > >> problem for GUIs: style provides a way to key hierarchy that provides > >> reinforcing feedback; > ... > >Incidentally, where does the magic number 7 come from? > > When I was at AT&T years ago, there was a company legend (possibly > apocryphal) about the length of US telephone numbers. According to this > legend, Bell Labs had surveyed large numbers of customers and determined > that, on average, people could remember 7 "things," plus or minus 3, about > another "thing." This has its roots in the paper "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our Capacity for Processing Information" (1956), Psychological Review, by George Miller[1]. As it happens, Miller has also been instrumental in creating the rather useful WordNet, a freely available lexical database which I suspect might figure heavily at some point in subject classification of Web resources for the so-called Semantic Web. Therefore we're back on-topic again, phew. [1] see http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~geo/ for HTML version [2] http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/~wn/ or see my CGI frontend lashup at http://snowball.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/cgi-bin/wnet if you're interested... -- Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1TN, UK. phone:+44(0)117-9287096 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk Fri Jul 2 14:54:08 1999 From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA23180C3DAE@FL-EXCHANGE-03> John Simpson wrote: When I was at AT&T years ago, there was a company legend (possibly apocryphal) about the length of US telephone numbers. According to this legend, Bell Labs had surveyed large numbers of customers and determined that, on average, people could remember 7 "things," plus or minus 3, about another "thing." Ergo, a phone number would optimally be made up of: a 4-digit "main portion," sans exchange and area code; a 3-digit exchange; and a 3-digit area code. This was supposedly in descending order of need to remember the additional portions, assuming that you'd need primarily to call people in your own exchange, followed by people in your area code but outside your exchange, followed by people in other area codes. I don't know where Rick's magic 7 comes from. Small correction - it was 7+/- 2 "bits" of information, according to an article by George A Miller in the Psychological Review, No. 63 (1956). The article was called: "The magical number seven, plus or minus two: some limits on out capacity for processing information." Whether AT&T did the research John mentions I wouldn't know Regards Andy B. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri Jul 2 15:27:03 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990702092811.007ecb90@polaris.net> At 01:50 PM 7/2/1999 +0100, Dan Brickley wrote: >This has its roots in the paper "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or >Minus Two: Some Limits on our Capacity for Processing Information" >(1956), Psychological Review, by George Miller[1]. As it happens, Miller >has also been instrumental in creating the rather useful WordNet, a >freely available lexical database which I suspect might figure heavily >at some point in subject classification of Web resources for the >so-called Semantic Web. Therefore we're back on-topic again, phew. Very deft . Thank you for the references! At 01:53 PM 7/2/1999 +0100, Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk wrote: >Small correction - it was 7+/- 2 "bits" of information, according to an >article by George A Miller in the Psychological Review, No. 63 (1956). >The article was called: "The magical number seven, plus or minus two: some >limits on out capacity for processing information." > >Whether AT&T did the research John mentions I wouldn't know Couldn't find any mention of AT&T or Bell Labs (or for that matter, any occurrences of the string "phone" except in "phoneme") in the HTML version of the paper that Dan pointed to. That I heard of this 7-more-or-less theory as "belonging to" AT&T about 20 years after Miller's paper was published possibly reflects the embrace-and-extend philosophy: "Not invented here... but if it's useful, we can say it was!" ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Fri Jul 2 16:10:29 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990702092811.007ecb90@polaris.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John E. Simpson wrote: > Couldn't find any mention of AT&T or Bell Labs (or for that matter, any > occurrences of the string "phone" except in "phoneme") in the HTML version > of the paper that Dan pointed to. That I heard of this 7-more-or-less > theory as "belonging to" AT&T about 20 years after Miller's paper was > published possibly reflects the embrace-and-extend philosophy: "Not > invented here... but if it's useful, we can say it was!" Note, BTW, that the "7 items" theory refers to the limits of *working memory* only. In particular, it is completely irrelevant to tasks involving picking a single item from a displayed list; such tasks require only *one* item to be held in working memory, regardless of how long the list is. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Fri Jul 2 16:15:02 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990702083125.007f0410@polaris.net> Message-ID: Hi, The magic seven comes from a well know article form George Miller in 1956 called "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our Capacity for Processing Information". In this now famous article, Miller stated that the short term memory can handle 7 elements plus or minus 2. This means that gifted people can remember with their short term memory 9 elements and the less gifted 5. The average person can remember 7 and thus, this is why the number 7 is called the magic seven. it is the "short term memory register" (kind of) of the average person on this planet. Bell Labs used the result of this research to design an addressing system that could be handled by the average person. At Xerox PARC we used the same principle to design the desktop and the notion of pull down or context menus. Originally a pull down or context menu has been created to relieve the long term memory (i.e. a command line based system) and use instead the short term memory. This is why a menu containing 7 elements (the magic seven) is better designed than a menu having 10 elements (above the gifted persons capabilities). From these studies we discovered that the tendency to chunk data is based on our intuitive knowledge of our magic seven short term memory limitations. This is why we tend to decompose things in hierarchies or do a process known as chunking the information universe. So, the magic seven concept is also known as the Miller principle and you can find that in the 1956 published paper named "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our Capacity for Processing Information" by George Miller. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of John E. Simpson Sent: Friday, July 02, 1999 8:32 AM To: XML Developers' List Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) At 10:23 AM 7/2/1999 +0100, Philip Nye wrote: >Rick Jelliffe wrote: ... >> 1) you have to remember the name, this is difficult if there are more >> than 7 names in frequent use; >> 2) if there are more than 7 elements at any one level, there is a >> selection >> problem for GUIs: style provides a way to key hierarchy that provides >> reinforcing feedback; ... >Incidentally, where does the magic number 7 come from? When I was at AT&T years ago, there was a company legend (possibly apocryphal) about the length of US telephone numbers. According to this legend, Bell Labs had surveyed large numbers of customers and determined that, on average, people could remember 7 "things," plus or minus 3, about another "thing." Ergo, a phone number would optimally be made up of: a 4-digit "main portion," sans exchange and area code; a 3-digit exchange; and a 3-digit area code. This was supposedly in descending order of need to remember the additional portions, assuming that you'd need primarily to call people in your own exchange, followed by people in your area code but outside your exchange, followed by people in other area codes. I don't know where Rick's magic 7 comes from. ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Fri Jul 2 16:22:37 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:39 2004 Subject: Query on Attribute Declaration Message-ID: <19990702140637.19110.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi Everybody, My DTD looks like this. The following documents are valid
Question is how will the person creating the XML document know that the NAME_VALUE of the NAME element has to be filled. Since both the above documents are valid whether the attribute is used or not. Please throw more light on this. Thanks in advance. _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri Jul 2 16:35:08 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF53@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > >Incidentally, where does the magic number 7 come from? Complexity Reference: compref238 (BibTex) Authors: Miller,GA Year: 1956 Title: The magical number seven, plus or minus two: Some limits on our capacity for processing information Journal: Psychological Review, 63, 81-97 Comments: Original study of the limits of human short term memory. Introduces the concept of "chunking". Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri Jul 2 17:35:33 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: Query on Attribute Declaration In-Reply-To: Mallikarjuna Sangappa's message of Fri, 2 Jul 1999 07:06:37 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199907021537.QAA29043@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > > This one is not valid; a validating parser should reject it. > This one is valid. There's no way to declare that an attribute is non-empty text. You could conceivably declare it NMTOKENS if the value will always consist of space-separated strings of letters, but I don't think that's really what it's meant for. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From adan at inven.com Fri Jul 2 20:32:07 1999 From: adan at inven.com (Dan Adler) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: Deliver XML into Excel w/o Programming Message-ID: Beta versions of the Inventure Data Browser (IDB) for Excel are available for free download at http://www.inventure.com/ The IDB is a set of analytic application add-ins that allow you to deliver XML and other forms of structured and unstructured Data and Analytics to intranet/internet end-users with no client-side programming. Analytics refer to local or remote functions which can bind to different implementations (executors). End-users graphically navigate, within their host applications, to XML-based Meta-Analytic Definition documents on the web or intranet, which automatically drive the entire interaction within the host application. In the current version, you can create Analytic definitions for various executors of Analytics: 1. HTML web pages (including auto-mapping of forms) 2. XML data (somewhat limited at this stage, no DTD/Schema, just result-set type data). The XML data executor uses HTTP-Form posting, so you can use any Servlet/ASP to create the interaction and simply return data in well-formed XML. There are many examples on the developer web site. 3. Excel analytics - turn any spreadsheet into an Analytic 4. Java-based analytics - bi-directional java-stream interaction from Servlets or App servers into Excel without writing any client-side COM/VBA code More executors, other host environments, and better XML handling are on the way... Full details and samples for developers are available at: http://www.inventure.com/developer/ -Dan -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x Dan Adler, CTO Inventure Technologies 30 Broad St. 22nd Floor, NY, NY 10004 VOICE (212) 208-0602 EMAIL mailto:adan@inven.com WWW http://www.inventure.com -x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com Sat Jul 3 06:27:24 1999 From: bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: Call for presentations: XML Developers' Conference 19-20 August Message-ID: <199907030429.VAA14738@boethius.eng.sun.com> The just-in-time proposal period for presentations at the GCA XML Developers' Conference in Montreal is now open. Proposals will be accepted through 16 July 1999. (IMPORTANT: read the section titled "Format for Submissions" before sending conference proposals.) If you are engaged in the development of any software that works with XML or with XML-related standards, in particular XSL, XLink, XPointer, DOM, RDF, SAX, CSS, or DSSSL, here is your chance to share your work with an audience that can understand and appreciate it. Further details about the conference are given below. Presenters get in free. Vendors of commercial tools can participate, but the presentations must be confined to the technical aspects of products currently in development. Table space will be made available for the distribution of product announcements and commercial literature. There will also be room on the schedule for a couple of case studies or tendentious diatribes if their subjects and presenters seem interesting enough to warrant a place on the program. FORMAT FOR SUBMISSIONS As in previous years, the emphasis is on work in progress, so we're not looking for formal papers but just a couple of long paragraphs (300-500 words) submitted during the two-week period that begins now and ends July 16. (If you have a formal paper appropriate for a genuine peer review process, the right place to present it is the GCA Markup Technologies conference in December, which coincidentally has the same cutoff date for submissions this year as the XML Developers' Conference -- July 16. See http://www.gca.org/conf/mt99/callpart.htm for more about Markup Technologies '99.) It's OK if some details of your project are still not firm, but you must be careful to indicate those areas of uncertainty in your submission along with their current status and your expectations for their status at the time of the conference. Remember, this is a conference for software developers; just observe the same general rules that you would follow in annotating code in progress. The important thing is that you give enough information for us to decide which presentations to include and to tell other attendees what to expect. Proposals will be accepted only in plain text. Proposals sent in HTML, XML, Word, PowerPoint, or other marked-up or proprietary codings will not even be acknowledged. Proposals must be submitted directly by the person who will be presenting and not by a secretary, mentor, assistant, or marketing person. All proposals should be sent to bosak@eng.sun.com and to no other address. Proposals must be received on or before 16 July 1999. N.B.: Failure to follow these simple directions will be taken as evidence of a level of expertise too low for this conference. PRESENTATION FORMAT Presentations are expected to include slides and/or demonstrations displayed using an ordinary XGA (1024 x 768) projector. Be prepared in the event that your submission is accepted to come to the conference with something that can be displayed this way and distributed electronically afterward. Any reasonably common format from ASCII on up through HTML to XML with a CSS or XSL stylesheet (or sideways to PowerPoint or PDF) is acceptable as long as it can be made available right after the conference in a form that can be downloaded from the conference web site. Note that the files containing the presentation are not due until it is actually delivered. Presenters at this conference can (and often do) revise their presentations right up until the moment they come to the podium. It is assumed that presenters will bring their own laptop computers; if additional equipment or connections are needed, make that clear in your submission. ABOUT THE CONFERENCE The XML Developers' Conference is the fourth in a series of small but very successful informal technical gatherings that began with one-day events in Montreal (August 1997) and Seattle (March 1998) and were extended to the present two-day format in Montreal last summer (August 1998). As usual, the XML Developers' Conference will be held in Le Centre Sheraton and will be preceded in the same location by the two-day GCA Metastructures conference (formerly the GCA HyTime conference). The Metastructures conference is designed for experts in hypertext linking and related technologies (topic maps, knowledge management, etc.) and concentrates on HyTime and the XLink/XPointer side of the XML family. The four days of combined conferences are preceded by a day of GCA tutorials. The schedule is as follows: 16 August Tutorials 17-18 August Metastructures '99 19-20 August XML Developers' Conference See http://www.gca.org for updates to the conference schedule. Like previous conferences in this series, the XML Developers' "UnConference(tm)" resists the bigger-is-better trend of recent years and maintains the concept of a single-track event featuring the cream of XML geekdom. Attendees can expect two days of informal but intensely interesting presentations on fairly deep subjects in a locale noted for its French-Canadian culture, great food, low prices, and vibrant summer street life. The GCA Metastructures and XML Developers' conferences are cosponsored by the Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information Standards (OASIS) and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C). The OASIS cosponsorship is highlighted this year by the location of the OASIS Summer Workshop in the same hotel at the end of the previous week, August 11-13. OASIS, which is rapidly achieving critical mass as a forum for the development of vendor-neutral applications of XML, has just changed its membership structure to allow participation by individuals. The Summer Workshop in Montreal will be its first meeting under the new organization, and it promises to be a significant event for OASIS members. See http://www.oasis-open.org/ for more information about OASIS and http://xml.org/ for information on its recently announced XML.org initiative. In keeping with its emphasis on the latest developments, the schedule of speakers for the XML Developers' Conference will not be available until about three weeks before the conference itself. Thus, a certain amount of faith is required when making travel arrangements. Participants in previous events in this series have found that faith well rewarded. Jon Bosak Chair, XML Developers' Conference ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Bosak, Online Information Technology Architect, Sun Microsystems 901 San Antonio Road, MPK17-101, Palo Alto, California 94303 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34::NCITS V1::OASIS:: Chair, W3C XML Coordination Group ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It is earlier than we think. -- Vannevar Bush ---------------------------------------------------------------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Sat Jul 3 09:38:36 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000??) Message-ID: <002601bec51f$686d1570$2bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Eric Bohlman >On Fri, 2 Jul 1999, John E. Simpson wrote: > >> Couldn't find any mention of AT&T or Bell Labs (or for that matter, any >> occurrences of the string "phone" except in "phoneme") in the HTML version >> of the paper that Dan pointed to. That I heard of this 7-more-or-less >> theory as "belonging to" AT&T about 20 years after Miller's paper was >> published possibly reflects the embrace-and-extend philosophy: "Not >> invented here... but if it's useful, we can say it was!" Thanks to John S., Dan B. and all, for the references and info. >Note, BTW, that the "7 items" theory refers to the limits of *working >memory* only. In particular, it is completely irrelevant to tasks >involving picking a single item from a displayed list; such tasks require >only *one* item to be held in working memory, regardless of how long the >list is. Miller uses "span of absolute judgement" and "span of intermediate memory". I think these are applicable to GUIs and to structured editing, but only with care. For example, many structured editors give a context-sensitive menu: you cannot use position on the menu to locate an item because it changes. So you have to scan the list to find the information, and you might have to figure out "which of the available choices are relevant to this document?" But if the list is scrolling, then we are using the list differently: we are not choosing from many, we are saying yes/no to a presented choice. And, in any case, the stimulus from words may be a graphical stimulus not a letter-based one: we may remember things like "top" or "bottom" or "next to the menu line" or "has a little icon": this is what Miller calls multidemensionality. For GUI work, other factors such as the physical difficulty of the tasks (Fitts' law's Index of Difficulty) and reading criteria such as the number of eye fixations also play an important part. But the question is not "Do Miller's ideas apply here?" but "Why are structured editors easier to use when the DTDs have a 7-ish number of elements available in any context?" All we need from Miller, Fitts, span of attention studies, eye fixation studies, are rules of thumb. If we take the magical 7 as one such rule of thumb, then it has implications for GUI design of structured editors, DTDs and workflow: * structured editors should provide some other dimensions (glyphs, colours, 2D, nested menus, shortcuts, "recoding") apart from the scrolling list for large, loose content models; * If an element type contains more than 7ish elements in a loose structures, DTD designers may decide to favour generic elements type to reduce the number; if their are fewer than 7ish the DTD designer may decide to favour ungeneralizing some element types (i.e.,
    and
      rather than and ) * mangers may decide on a division of labour in which each operator only deals with on 7-ish branch (i.e. a table entry operator, a cross-reference and indexing operator, metadata entry operator, a text entry operator). In Miller's terms, I think that selecting element types by navigating through style information (created by inverting the stylesheet) may be a useful "recoding". Rick Jelliffe P.S. Here are some key quotes from Miller: "Everybody knows that there is a finite span of immediate memory and that for a lot of different kinds of test materials this span is about seven items in length. I have just shown you that there is a span of absolute judgment that can distinguish about seven categories and that there is a span of attention that will encompass about six objects at a glance. What is more natural than to think that all three of these spans are different aspects of a single underlying process? And that is a fundamental mistake, as I shall be at some pains to demonstrate." His conclusions include: "First, the span of absolute judgment and the span of immediate memory impose severe limitations on the amount of information that we are able to receive, process, and remember. By organizing the stimulus input simultaneously into several dimensions and successively into a sequence or chunks, we manage to break (or at least stretch) this informational bottleneck." ... "Second, the process of recoding is a very important one in human psychology and deserves much more explicit attention than it has received. " ... "Third, the concepts and measures provided by the theory of information provide a quantitative way of getting at some of these questions." Earlier... 'We give the observer as much time as he wants to make his response; we simply increase the number of alternative stimuli among which he must discriminate and look to see where confusions begin to occur. Confusions will appear near the point that we are calling his "channel capacity." ' ... 'Let me summarize the situation in this way. There is a clear and definite limit to the accuracy with which we can identify absolutely the magnitude of a unidimensional stimulus variable. I would propose to call this limit the span of absolute judgment, and I maintain that for unidimensional judgments this span is usually somewhere in the neighborhood of seven. We are not completely at the mercy of this limited span, however, because we have a variety of techniques for getting around it and increasing the accuracy of our judgments. The three most important of these devices are (a) to make relative rather than absolute judgments; or, if that is not possible, (b) to increase the number of dimensions along which the stimuli can differ; or (c) to arrange the task in such a way that we make a sequence of several absolute judgments in a row. ' http://www.well.com/user/smalin/miller.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Sun Jul 4 22:13:51 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <002d01bec3bb$2f04d8a0$334ffea9@litebook> References: <003a01bec355$4e02dec0$334ffea9@litebook> <377AC01A.FBD4377A@allette.com.au> Message-ID: At 99/07/01 22:13 +1000, Trevor Croll wrote: >I was looking at writing an application which interprets XML for general >distribution - the purpose is filing of forms data. (Many peculiar >requirements exist where record keeping is required with computer ability to >search and analize data quickly.) I was looking at writing a tool set for >servicing these peculiar requirements using XML >Is this feasible? Before completing your system design, check out JetForm's new XFA - XML Forms Architecture: http://www.xfa.com/ You may find everything you need to base your new tool set on an architecture that will allow your programs to interoperate successfully with other tool sets related to forms processing. I hope this helps. ........... Ken -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Publications: Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4 Next instructor-led training: MS'99 1999-08-16 MT'99 1999-12-05/06 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From zzyzlane at gte.net Mon Jul 5 00:16:34 1999 From: zzyzlane at gte.net (Christopher Lane) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Message-ID: <377FDE4A.2C1A0840@gte.net> David Megginson: | Here's an interesting problem -- in the world of DC comics, there exists no time T in which Superman and Clark Kent both exist simultaneously, and as a corollary, there exists no person P such that P is both Superman and Clark Kent. On the other hand, there does exist a person who is always *either* Clark Kent or Superman. Does this constitute identity?| The proposition may be stated incorrectly. If you recall your comic history, Clark wore his Superman costume at all times under his clothes, presumably unless he were going swimming with Lois. Clark was Superman, most of the time, but he became identifiable as Superman when he ripped off his "Clark" clothes and took off his glasses. Clark still was able to perform all the actions that Superman could perform without assuming the costume. Furthermore, you might find instances in which Superman was still wearing Clark's glasses. All of these things are known by us, the readers of the comic or watcher of the movie/show. This information, in the fictional world, was "restricted" to the characters who had access to the knowable data. Therefore, Mom and Pop Kent could know all there was to know about Clark=Superman=Kal-El, in the same way as your Personnel Rep. can access information in a personnel database, which restricts your personal data from outsiders. Lois does know some things about the data pertaining to Clark, and some things about Superman=Kal-El, but she does not have full "read" access to all the data, unless you want to include their post-conjugal relationship in "Lois and Clark," in which she finally gets the full data. I think this is a simple case, in which you have one object = a person, who has multiple identities. You have the same case with actors and musicians who use "stage names" and authors who use pseudonyms. Thanks, Christopher Lane zzyzlane@gte.net clane2@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jul 5 01:14:54 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:15 PM 7/4/99 -0700, G. Ken Holman wrote: >Before completing your system design, check out JetForm's new XFA - XML >Forms Architecture: > > http://www.xfa.com/ In fact if you go to http://www.w3.org/TR there are two submissions there on e-forms, XFA and another one called XFDL. I haven't read XFA and I don't know the first thing about e-forms (even though I co-edited XFDL, it was just XML sanity-checking) so I don't have an opinion as the trade-offs, but the submitters of both languages have been in the e-forms trade for years, so presumably that experience is requested in those submissions. I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend HTML forms... -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jul 5 01:28:35 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <377FDE4A.2C1A0840@gte.net> from "Christopher Lane" at Jul 4, 99 03:20:58 pm Message-ID: <199907042357.TAA08232@locke.ccil.org> Christopher Lane scripsit: > The proposition may be stated incorrectly. If you recall your comic > history, Clark wore his Superman costume at all times under his clothes, > presumably unless he were going swimming with Lois. Clark was Superman, > most of the time, Indeed, he was Superman *all* of the time. Identity either holds or it doesn't; there is no such thing as "becoming identical" or "ceasing to be identical". > All of these things are known by us, the > readers of the comic or watcher of the movie/show. Hmm, do you perhaps have family knowledge? :-) -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Mon Jul 5 01:58:36 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:40 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: <003a01bec355$4e02dec0$334ffea9@litebook><377AC01A.FBD4377A@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <000d01bec679$5234ff60$334ffea9@litebook> Yes it does help, it is what I was looking for and every other applications developer who will be doing work on data bases may also need, it is truely very good. There is another site worth looking at www.openapplications.org here the definitions for data interchanger between packages is being defined Thank you again trevor Croll ----- Original Message ----- From: G. Ken Holman To: Trevor Croll Cc: Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 6:15 AM Subject: Re: XML for forms > At 99/07/01 22:13 +1000, Trevor Croll wrote: > >I was looking at writing an application which interprets XML for general > >distribution - the purpose is filing of forms data. (Many peculiar > >requirements exist where record keeping is required with computer ability to > >search and analize data quickly.) I was looking at writing a tool set for > >servicing these peculiar requirements using XML > >Is this feasible? > > Before completing your system design, check out JetForm's new XFA - XML > Forms Architecture: > > http://www.xfa.com/ > > You may find everything you need to base your new tool set on an > architecture that will allow your programs to interoperate successfully > with other tool sets related to forms processing. > > I hope this helps. > > ........... Ken > > > -- > G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com > Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ > Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) > Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. > Publications: Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4 > Next instructor-led training: MS'99 1999-08-16 MT'99 1999-12-05/06 > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Mon Jul 5 02:01:40 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <001f01bec679$c31f3f60$334ffea9@litebook> Thanks Tim, I will look at these submissions, I have looked at XFA already and it is very promising for my application. AFA is what I was looking for and every other applications developer who will be doing work on data bases may also need, it is truely very good. There is another site worth looking at www.openapplications.org here the definitions for data interchanger between packages is being defined Thank you again trevor Croll ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bray To: G. Ken Holman ; Trevor Croll Cc: Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 9:16 AM Subject: Re: XML for forms > At 01:15 PM 7/4/99 -0700, G. Ken Holman wrote: > >Before completing your system design, check out JetForm's new XFA - XML > >Forms Architecture: > > > > http://www.xfa.com/ > > In fact if you go to http://www.w3.org/TR there are two submissions > there on e-forms, XFA and another one called XFDL. I haven't read > XFA and I don't know the first thing about e-forms (even though I > co-edited XFDL, it was just XML sanity-checking) so I don't have > an opinion as the trade-offs, but the submitters of both languages > have been in the e-forms trade for years, so presumably that > experience is requested in those submissions. > > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > HTML forms... -T. > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stark at corp.phone.com Mon Jul 5 03:28:08 1999 From: stark at corp.phone.com (Peter Stark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <000a01bec686$4a5abb10$27bce8d0@pstark.phone.com> Tim wrote: > > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > HTML forms... -T. > It's the HTML working group. If you are a member of the W3C, go to the HTML WG's web page, and you fill find a whole lot of forms related input and a requirements document. regards, Peter Stark Phone.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Mon Jul 5 07:18:46 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <000001bec6a6$5683c6a0$cc6ffea9@w21tp> > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > HTML forms... -T. Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should get together outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form support. It is my opinion that there is no clear winner in this area and there are many other e-form companies preparing to jump in. Either that or another round of catfight is needed to clear up the air. Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From suresh at niitblvl.niit.co.in Mon Jul 5 07:14:49 1999 From: suresh at niitblvl.niit.co.in (suresh@niitblvl.niit.co.in) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: DTD - Is it the right way? Message-ID: <4896303001015100@mailer.niit.co.in> I am a starter at XML. Below is a DTD I have written for Contacts. I have used a tool called as XML Spy. I have a few questions 1. Is this is the right way of writing a DTD? 2. The tool said that the DTD was valid, but I cant open it in IE5. Suresh Yellamaraju xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Mon Jul 5 08:12:11 1999 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: Parsing techniques used for XML grammars Message-ID: <003301bec6ad$6c776b40$0c01a8c0@abiwebserver> Hello, PROBLEM STATEMENT Which of the following parsing techniques Top Down Method - Recursive Descent Parsing - Predictive Parsing (LL parsing) Bottom Up Parsing - LR Parsing - Shift Reduce Parsing are employed by XML parsers to - validate input XML tokens (data) - generate XML data parse trees ? Thanks in advance for any replies, Amit Rekhi, Software Engineer, A.B. Infosys Private Limited, B-102, Gulmohar Park, New Delhi - 110049, INDIA. Tel: +91-11-6512816,6512822,6968976 Fax: +91-11-6518873 Website: http://www.abinfosys.com EMail: amit@abinfosys.com Note: Not related to Infosys Technologies Limited xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk Mon Jul 5 11:22:08 1999 From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA23180C3DB0@FL-EXCHANGE-03> Didier wrote: >The magic seven comes from a well know article form George Miller in 1956 >called "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our >Capacity for Processing Information". In this now famous article, Miller >stated that the short term memory can handle 7 elements plus or minus 2. >This means that gifted people can remember with their short term memory 9 >elements and the less gifted 5. The average person can remember 7 Just for the sake of accuracy, this has nothing whatever to do with being gifted. Miller's article simply records certain experiments (carried out by other researchers) and notes the overall implications. In practise, unless you are skilled in memorisation techniques, the amount of information you can carry in working memory will vary according to context, emotional state, interest in the material being memorised and so on. Regards Andy B. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon Jul 5 13:31:54 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) In-Reply-To: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA23180C3DB0@FL-EXCHANGE-03> Message-ID: Hi Andy, I said gifted without mentioning that this skill is the result or nature or of culture or even practice or any other kind of emotional state or source. I agree that the word was badly chosen. This said, it seems (from observation and experiments) that long term memory is more influenced by emotional state than short term memory. Miller referred to some experiments but these experiments tell us nothing about short term memory being influenced by emotional state or practice. From observation and experiments, we have indications that long term memory is influenced by emotional state. But it seems that short term memory is not as sensible to this variable. So, being open to your arguments, do you have any article or study specifying explicitly that short term memory is influenced by emotional state or practice? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:23 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) Didier wrote: >The magic seven comes from a well know article form George Miller in 1956 >called "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our >Capacity for Processing Information". In this now famous article, Miller >stated that the short term memory can handle 7 elements plus or minus 2. >This means that gifted people can remember with their short term memory 9 >elements and the less gifted 5. The average person can remember 7 Just for the sake of accuracy, this has nothing whatever to do with being gifted. Miller's article simply records certain experiments (carried out by other researchers) and notes the overall implications. In practise, unless you are skilled in memorisation techniques, the amount of information you can carry in working memory will vary according to context, emotional state, interest in the material being memorised and so on. Regards Andy B. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jul 5 14:42:37 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <000001bec6a6$5683c6a0$cc6ffea9@w21tp> References: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <000001bec6a6$5683c6a0$cc6ffea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <14208.42845.273070.649473@localhost.localdomain> Don Park writes: > > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch > > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > > HTML forms... -T. > > Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should get > together outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form > support. It is my opinion that there is no clear winner in this > area and there are many other e-form companies preparing to jump > in. Either that or another round of catfight is needed to clear up > the air. I have not more than glanced at either of the XML submissions, but I am hesitant about anything that tries to reproduce paper forms on the screen. I understand that during the 80's and 90's there has been a smallish niche market for that sort of thing (because of legacy regulations, especially in government and the military), but just as good, usable HTML pages don't look anything like magazine articles or ads, good, genuinely usable electronic forms don't look anything like paper forms. A good XML forms language should be fairly simple; any hairy stuff can be offloaded to stylesheets for people who think they need it. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Mon Jul 5 14:44:25 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <000001bec6a6$5683c6a0$cc6ffea9@w21tp> References: <3.0.32.19990704161614.0126c530@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: At 10:22 PM -0700 7/4/99, Don Park wrote: >> I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch >> an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to >> recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend >> HTML forms... -T. > >Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should get together >outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form support. It is my >opinion that there is no clear winner in this area and there are many other >e-form companies preparing to jump in. Either that or another round of >catfight is needed to clear up the air. > XFDL (and probably XFA, though I haven't looked at it closely) try to go way beyond what HTML forms could or should do. They're trying to solve different problems. XFDL forms are extremely complex, to the point of being nearly impossible to author by hand. They specify a detailed level of presentation, going right down to font sizes. There are legally compelling reasons for them to do this, but the fact remains that the W3C explicitly eschews mixing in presentation information at the level XFDL requires. Consequently I find it unlikely that the W3C will pursue this work. Nor do I think the W3C should pursue this work. Which isn't to say that it's bad; just that there's room for more than one forms standard in the world. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From barbara.brosch at systor.com Mon Jul 5 14:49:25 1999 From: barbara.brosch at systor.com (barbara.brosch@systor.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML4J114 Message-ID: <412567A5.004B41F4.00@ajr.systor.com> Hello everybody, i have to 'hack' a business object modell with the XML4J-Classes. My Tasks are: - Read in the xml-file and build the DOM (ok -> that's no problem) - Update the DOM (ok -> that's no problem) BUT NOW: - I have to create a string, a file, a stream or something else from the current/updated DOM. Now my question: Which classes/methods should i take from the XML4J? I find nothing, no outputstream, no writer, nothing ... ; - ( Thank you for your help. Bye, Barbara B. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon Jul 5 15:23:31 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability) Message-ID: <3780B304.B8292D9@mitre.org> Hi Folks, I have created an XML document that contains Cellphone data. I have organized the data in this XML document similar to how it might be organized in a database: - one subtree contains Cellphone hardware data (weight, battery, etc). - one subtree contains Cellphone feature data (caller id, one touch dialing, etc). - one subtree maps Cellphone hardware data to Cellphone feature data (in databases this would be called an "association table"). Why am I organizing the data in this fashion? My hope is that this approach will facilitate queryability of the data. That remains to be seen ... Here's a sample query that I would like to perform: "What features does the NOKIA 252 Cellphone have?" If the data were in a database, such a query would be simple: SELECT features.name FROM features, cellphones, cellphone-features WHERE features.id = cellphone-features.feature-id AND cellphone-features.cellphone-id = cellphones.id AND cellphones.brand = "NOKIA" AND cellphone.model = "252" I am thinking (hoping) that I can perform a similar type of query using XQL. Here's what I tried (among many other attempts): cellphone-catalog/features [cellphone-catalog/cellphone-features/cellphone-feature/@feature-idref = @id $and$ cellphone-catalog/cellphone-features/cellphone-feature/@cellphone-idref = 'NOKIA-252'] This XQL query doesn't work (it returns the empty set). Below is sample data from my Cellphone XML document. Any thoughts on how to structure the XQL query? /Roger 6 5/8 1 7/8 1 6 1100 mAh 132 32 400 180 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 15:30:11 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: Trevor, [And I extend this invitation to the general public] As the editor of the XFA specifications I would be happy to try and address some of your more detailed questions. My ability to keep up on XML-Dev is very inconsistent (as is clear from the fact that it has taken me this long to pick up on this thread). Direct email is always easier for me. We (JetForm) wish to not require form data to be anything more than well formed XML. There is a whole range of initiatives springing up around schemas and data definition -- not something I want to get in the way of. I expect that this bubble of extreme growth will pop in the not too distant future and collapse into a few de facto technologies and techniques. IMHO the Keep It Simple approach to data (i.e. well formed XML) is the safest 'today' approach. Gavin. ======================================================== Gavin F. McKenzie mailto:gmckenzi@jetform.com Systems Architect Vox:+1(613)230-3676 JetForm Corporation or:+1(613)751-4800 ext 5277 http://www.jetform.com Fax:+1(613)751-4864 ======================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mgl at cereus7.com Mon Jul 5 15:44:48 1999 From: mgl at cereus7.com (Michael Lehman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: XML4J114 In-Reply-To: <412567A5.004B41F4.00@ajr.systor.com> Message-ID: <199907051344.GAA07400@proxy4.ba.best.com> There's no DOM method to do it but the IBM TXDocument class contains methods called printWithFormat() that use a PrintWriter object. Michael Lehman System Architect Cereus Design Corp. At 02:50 PM 7/5/99 +0100, barbara.brosch@systor.com wrote: >Hello everybody, > >i have to 'hack' a business object modell with the XML4J-Classes. > >My Tasks are: >- Read in the xml-file and build the DOM (ok -> that's no problem) >- Update the DOM (ok -> that's no problem) > > BUT NOW: >- I have to create a string, a file, a stream or something else from >the current/updated DOM. > >Now my question: >Which classes/methods should i take from the XML4J? I find nothing, >no outputstream, no writer, nothing ... ; - ( > >Thank you for your help. >Bye, Barbara B. > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon Jul 5 15:51:35 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:41 2004 Subject: PC Magazine: XML-RPC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990705065245.00c0d3b0@mail.userland.com> "Procedure calls don't have to initiate with your actions on your computer, however. They can also be remotely and automatically triggered by an event or script on another computer." http://www.zdnet.com/pcmag/stories/trends/0,7607,2286488,00.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 15:52:49 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: Don, The popular media seems to already be trying to whip this issue into something sensational. The XFDL and XFA technologies are *very* different. For my part, I continually try to spread the word that XFA is not intended to be competitive to HTML. Rather, we are looking to the successful evolution of technologies like [X]HTML and SVG as one way that we can deliver a browser-based experience via the presentation of XFA through HTML and SVG, etc. I think it would be foolish for anyone to attempt to invent a markup language that competes with HTML. XFA doesn't. I steer clear from calling XFA a markup language. Rather it is a higher level abstraction of a form, its presentation, business logic, etc. --- think of it as a modeling language. The reality is that JetForm's customers live in a transitional world spanning the realities of paper, thick-client applications, and browser-based solutions such as HTML. XFA models the form independent of these particular realities. A colleague of mine (Rob McDougall) has a further analogy. He describes how within specific disciplines there are 'special purpose vocabularies' that facilitate communication in a more succinct and accurate manner. For instance, physicists communicate in such a vocabulary with words that convey concepts specific to the realm of physics in a very concise manner. The words themselves are more successful at communicating when compared to (in my case) plain English. It may be possible to communicate in this realm using plain English that is free of this special vocabulary, but it will surely be more wordy, difficult, and more prone to missing the subtle nuances that are embedded within the special vocabulary. Note how this special vocabulary is not competitive to the larger language, rather it is complementary. XFA is one such special vocabulary. Gavin. ======================================================== Gavin F. McKenzie mailto:gmckenzi@jetform.com Systems Architect Vox:+1(613)230-3676 JetForm Corporation or:+1(613)751-4800 ext 5277 http://www.jetform.com Fax:+1(613)751-4864 ======================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Park [mailto:donpark@quake.net] > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:22 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: XML for forms > > > > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C to launch > > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > > HTML forms... -T. > > Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should > get together > outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form support. It is my > opinion that there is no clear winner in this area and there > are many other > e-form companies preparing to jump in. Either that or > another round of > catfight is needed to clear up the air. > > Don > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon Jul 5 15:53:32 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: DTD - Is it the right way? In-Reply-To: <4896303001015100@mailer.niit.co.in> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990705095509.0080f7d0@nexus.polaris.net> At 01:28 PM 05/13/1999 +0000, suresh@niitblvl.niit.co.in wrote: >...Below is a DTD I have written for Contacts. I have >used a tool called as XML Spy. I have a few questions >1. Is this is the right way of writing a DTD? Sure -- although "a" right way might be a better way of putting it. As long as the DTD is syntactically correct and leads to structurally sound documents, any way of writing a DTD is as good as any other. >2. The tool said that the DTD was valid, but I cant open it in IE5. The best you'd be able to do in IE5 would be to open the DTD as a text file. You may have misunderstood something important: that IE5 (and other "XML browser/viewer"-type products) is meant not for viewing DTDs, but for viewing *XML documents*. These may or may not be documents conforming to a DTD (called valid and well-formed documents, respectively); but the DTD itself isn't something a browser would need to display. (Although it's correct, your DTD does have one odd feature -- which may not be odd at all, of course, if your application demands it. The question I have about it is whether you really need to specify multiple content models (="formats") for a Person's FullName -- FirstName+MiddleInitials+LastName, LastName+FirstName+MiddleInitials, and so on. Typically you'd just need to pick one content model. If your application needs to read various formats, it would be up to the app to modify the document structure to conform to the DTD's single acceptable one; if it needs to "display" various formats, this can be accomplished with a style sheet or a downstream application.) So, given your DTD, the next step is to create a document based on it. This might look something like the following: ... etc. ... ... etc. ... (Replace "Contacts.dtd" in the above with the path to your DTD, whatever it's called.) Save the file, then view it (again, *not* the DTD) in IE5. BTW, a better place for general XML questions might be the XML-L mailing list. You can access XML-L and its archives, and/or subscribe and unsubscribe to the list, at: http://listserv.heanet.ie/xml-l.html In theory, XML-DEV is for discussion about issues relating to the development of XML software... although list members will tackle practically any reasonable question. :) ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 16:12:43 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: David, Yes, but I would prefer to say that simple forms that don't have regulatory requirements around their presentation can benefit from simple solutions. i.e. choose the tool that suits the task. But regulations and legal requirements around the presentation of forms, which often constitute documents of record with all the usual legal requirements, aren't going away anytime soon. The reproduction of papers forms on screen often arise from such regulatory requirements, and they also stem from the desire to ease training costs. In a transitional world people are moving from paper to electronic (or glass) solutions. If the on-screen representation looks like the form that people have used on paper for years, and will continue to use until complete adoption of an electronic solution, then the training costs are significantly reduced. I want to do my part to help people move to more effective solutions for capturing and processing forms, but the reality of paper must be recognized. Oh...and then there is the little secret in *many* organizations where after a completely electronic workflow, a piece of paper needs to be printed and put in a filing cabinet. And I haven't even touched on the issues around signing a form and the need to say that what I signed on screen is what turned up as a document of record on paper. Anyway...this clearly is an XML development forum, and I'm not looking to start a religious discussion on forms...I just wanted to put in a few resons for why paper keeps coming up as an important ingredient in forms. Gavin. ======================================================== Gavin F. McKenzie mailto:gmckenzi@jetform.com Systems Architect Vox:+1(613)230-3676 JetForm Corporation or:+1(613)751-4800 ext 5277 http://www.jetform.com Fax:+1(613)751-4864 ======================================================== > -----Original Message----- > From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 8:44 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: XML for forms > > > Don Park writes: > > > > I haven't detected any real overwhelming momentum at W3C > to launch > > > an ambitious e-forms standardization project, although I seem to > > > recall that some WG or other has the mandate to enrich & extend > > > HTML forms... -T. > > > > Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should get > > together outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form > > support. It is my opinion that there is no clear winner in this > > area and there are many other e-form companies preparing to jump > > in. Either that or another round of catfight is needed to clear up > > the air. > > I have not more than glanced at either of the XML submissions, but I > am hesitant about anything that tries to reproduce paper forms on the > screen. > > I understand that during the 80's and 90's there has been a smallish > niche market for that sort of thing (because of legacy regulations, > especially in government and the military), but just as good, usable > HTML pages don't look anything like magazine articles or ads, good, > genuinely usable electronic forms don't look anything like paper > forms. > > A good XML forms language should be fairly simple; any hairy > stuff can > be offloaded to stylesheets for people who think they need it. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jul 5 17:34:33 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14208.53102.153698.654071@localhost.localdomain> Gavin McKenzie writes: > But regulations and legal requirements around the presentation of > forms, which often constitute documents of record with all the > usual legal requirements, aren't going away anytime soon. I agree -- it's a small (from an enterprise perspective) but useful niche market: quite large enough to keep JetForm and a couple of competitors busy (and wealthy) for a while, but too small to excite the predatory instincts of the big players. I expect, though, that there will be relatively few *new* requirements based around the layout of paper forms, so there is a solid ceiling on the market's growth. Given the relatively small number of players and the limited need for interoperability in the looks-like-paper forms market, it's probably not a good target for W3C standardization, though someone like OASIS might want to take a stab at it. Perhaps a better goal would be to ensure that XSL is powerful enough to handle all of the layout requirements for forms. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jul 5 19:20:27 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990705102227.0118a0c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:36 AM 7/5/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >I agree -- it's a small (from an enterprise perspective) but useful >niche market: quite large enough to keep JetForm and a couple of >competitors busy (and wealthy) for a while, Actually, in recent times the vendors have been struggling. It's an interesting area of work though - the notion that you can finalize a weighty legal transaction (loan application, purchase order) by filling in an HTML form and sending a bunch of context-free name/value pairs to port 80 somewhere is pretty deeply inconsistent with business culture as we know it, which relies on the ability to resolve business disputes with litigation dependent on the paper trail. I'm not asserting that the Web can't support this kind of thing, I'm just dubious that the HTTP POST operation as now practiced provides the necessary infrastructure. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jul 5 19:25:49 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990705102227.0118a0c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990705102227.0118a0c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14208.60000.64856.457837@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > It's an interesting area of work though - the notion that you can > finalize a weighty legal transaction (loan application, purchase > order) by filling in an HTML form and sending a bunch of > context-free name/value pairs to port 80 somewhere is pretty deeply > inconsistent with business culture as we know it, which relies on > the ability to resolve business disputes with litigation dependent > on the paper trail. I'm not asserting that the Web can't support > this kind of thing, I'm just dubious that the HTTP POST operation > as now practiced provides the necessary infrastructure. -T. The same problems exist with electronic forms whether or not they are presented on the screen so that they look like paper forms -- we're still stuck trying to figure out what to do with digital signatures, transaction logs, etc. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jul 5 20:56:03 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990705115616.0118d6b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:27 PM 7/5/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Tim Bray writes: > > > It's an interesting area of work though - the notion that you can > > finalize a weighty legal transaction (loan application, purchase > > order) by filling in an HTML form and sending a bunch of > > context-free name/value pairs to port 80 somewhere is pretty deeply > > inconsistent with business culture as we know it > >The same problems exist with electronic forms whether or not they are >presented on the screen so that they look like paper forms Emulating paper isn't the issue; making the transaction admissable as evidence is. That is why XFDL for example insists on including in the form document all the presentational information and so on - the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation. (Mind you, this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with custom tags as XFDL did). As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Mon Jul 5 21:52:03 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: PC Magazine: XML-RPC In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.56.19990705065245.00c0d3b0@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <000101bec720$47d6e860$6bbbfea9@w21tp> Dave, Using XML-RPC, how does a client: 1. Get a list of all the available methods and their signature (i.e. args)? 2. Send XML fragments as an argument. 3. Send and receive anonymous streams as argument and as result? Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Mon Jul 5 21:54:21 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: <3.0.32.19990705102227.0118a0c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14208.60000.64856.457837@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37810C69.719A@hiwaay.net> David Megginson wrote: > > The same problems exist with electronic forms whether or not they are > presented on the screen so that they look like paper forms -- we're > still stuck trying to figure out what to do with digital signatures, > transaction logs, etc. There is work going on in the New Mexico court system for enabling attorneys to work with schedules in the local courts. These rely on XML-based transactions. Deatils and the DTD are online. I am home and do not have that URL. It is particularly at the pass-points of heterogeneous systems such as typify city and state operations that XML can be applied. Different pots of money procure these systems, so selling a complete system to any area is as much a matter of multiple customers under the same roof as anything else. Then there are the issues of getting each nested venue to accept the standards for passing the information. At this time, the best work is in the Federal area and there are large grants available to municipalities who apply these standards. Solving the security and authentication problems, and getting the approval of the legislatures to use this are the critical issues to using XML for so-called, public safety systems. Currently, we field an application, I-NetViewer to enable privileged users access to the PS databases and to conduct a restricted set of transactions. We would like to advance to use of XML and are closely watching progress in the areas mentioned above. The food chain of information providers based on standards such as NIBRS is very very large and very much in need of the ability to use BeyondDelimitedASCII transports. There are some challenges with the existing practices and applications of relational systems (the usual drill or ricebowl and entrenched vendors). len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tim at RSA.COM Mon Jul 5 21:55:52 1999 From: tim at RSA.COM (Matthews, Tim) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: State Information Message-ID: Is there a way to save state information inside of an XML document? What I am interested in doing is keeping information about transactions or disposition of messages within the XML documents themselves. Thanks, Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 22:01:59 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: Tim Bray writes: > Emulating paper isn't the issue; making the transaction admissable > as evidence is. Determining admissible evidence is clearly outside the scope of responsibility of an e-forms vendor. :-) > That is why XFDL for example insists on including > in the form document all the presentational information and so on - > the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to > the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the > user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation. (Mind you, > this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with > custom tags as XFDL did). Sign yes. Include no. It requires that content (data) and the context (presentation) be signed, but fusing the data content and the presentation together isn't necessary; and it is very costly on a number of levels. Simply including a fingerprint of the presentation as part of the data signing is sufficient. Nothing more is achieved by choosing to store or incorporate the presentation with the data or vice-versa. > > As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is > here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value > pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T. True. Hence why incorporating the presentation as a participant in the signature is so important. But also recognize that not all forms require such a heavy hand of security. Many forms are used in (closed) environments with a higher level of trust. Other forms are simply 'worksheets' that facilitate the data entry of data which is completely self-describing and can be signed on its own. Some processes do not need to sacrifice the particular aspect of flexibility that is lost when signing data in concert with presentation -- the flexibility lost is that the data won't verify in another presentation...this of course is the primary feature of including the presentation in the signature, but in some usage contexts this feature is undesirable. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Mon Jul 5 22:14:36 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201bec723$7c077980$6bbbfea9@w21tp> Gavin, Long time since I heard from ya . You are right that XFA/XFDL are not HTML and I am not arguing that point. What I neglected to say was that the days of monolithic standards are over and that we, the XML developers, should start adopting the modular approach used in XHTML and XSL/XSLT. Using this approach, XFA/XFDL can remove overlaps with XHTML modules and then divide up the remainder into several modules. Result would be far more understandable, supportable, and reusable. Small, simple, modular XML standards is what I would like to see. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 22:26:49 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:42 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: Ooops...pardon me, something unfortunate has just been brought to my attention. > Tim Bray wrote: > > That is why XFDL for example insists on including > > in the form document all the presentational information and so on - > > the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to > > the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the > > user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation. (Mind you, > > this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with > > custom tags as XFDL did). Gavin McKenzie wrote: > Sign yes. Include no. It requires that content (data) and My comments might lead somebody to believe that I am attempting to clarify the position of XFDL -- if it isn't already obvious from the domain of my email address, I am doing no such thing -- obviously based on my previous emails I have a professional bias on this topic towards the body of work known as XFA. I am speaking for my own opinions and the XFA specifications. When I said, "It requires that..." I was not speaking of XFDL, which I cannot speak for. Rather, I was generally stating that "Non-repudiation (often) requires that the context and presentation be signed...". People (customers) have a wide range of requirements that are not best served by a single simple solution. Persisting presentation and data together isn't required or necessary. > the context (presentation) be signed, but fusing the data > content and the presentation together isn't necessary; and it > is very costly on a number of levels. > > Simply including a fingerprint of the presentation as part of the data > signing is sufficient. Nothing more is achieved by choosing > to store or > incorporate the presentation with the data or vice-versa. > > > > > As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is > > here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value > > pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T. > > True. Hence why incorporating the presentation as a > participant in the > signature is so important. > > But also recognize that not all forms require such a heavy > hand of security. > Many forms are used in (closed) environments with a higher > level of trust. > Other forms are simply 'worksheets' that facilitate the data > entry of data > which is completely self-describing and can be signed on its own. > > Some processes do not need to sacrifice the particular aspect > of flexibility > that is lost when signing data in concert with presentation -- the > flexibility lost is that the data won't verify in another > presentation...this of course is the primary feature of including the > presentation in the signature, but in some usage contexts > this feature is > undesirable. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Mon Jul 5 22:42:34 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: XML for forms In-Reply-To: <37810C69.719A@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Len Bullard wrote: > There is work going on in the New Mexico court system for enabling > attorneys to work with schedules in the local courts. > These rely on XML-based transactions. Deatils and the > DTD are online. I am home and do not have that URL. > It is particularly at the pass-points of heterogeneous > systems such as typify city and state operations that > XML can be applied. Different pots of money procure these Possibly: XML Court Interface (XCI) See http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/xci.html -rcc xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gmckenzi at JetForm.com Mon Jul 5 22:46:01 1999 From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: XML for forms Message-ID: Don, Yeah...I think it has probably been a year since we've last spoken. Time flies...I'm sure we've both been more than busy. Your points are well taken, and appropriate. I agree with your perspective on the value of using a modular approach based upon best of breed implementation technologies to building solutions, and I think that any developer of a new XML language would be served with starting their efforts by understanding how they are going to achieve success in light of such an approach. However, forms are strangely complex objects that must rely upon some combination of a dizzying array of technologies. High-fidelity graphics, text processing / document flow, scripting, navigation management, workflow, data source integration, third-party software controls (ActiveX, Beans) etc. etc. Not all users/customers require all of these technologies -- a simple web form may require very few. A regulatory form in a complex workflow terminating in the update of a database may require more. Clearly, such a problem space is not served by trying to (re)invent so many wheels. But, it is well served by describing the high level abstraction or model of a form and the framework within which you can use off-the-shelf technologies as listed above. The benefit should be that as the individual implementation technologies change/improve/die that the overall abstraction or model should not change, or at least change less than if it were based solely upon the bare amalgamation of the technologies themselves. It provides you a consistent model which can be translated to the amalgam of implementation technologies that are appropriate to you. So yes...I agree with you...building non-monolithic solutions upon best of breed implementation technologies (XHTML, SVG, XSLT) is viable, and IMHO more successful when coupled with a modeling language that describes the solution independent of any particular implementation. Gavin. > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Park [mailto:donpark@quake.net] > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 4:18 PM > To: 'Gavin McKenzie'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: XML for forms > > > Gavin, > > Long time since I heard from ya . > > You are right that XFA/XFDL are not HTML and I am not arguing > that point. > What I neglected to say was that the days of monolithic > standards are over > and that we, the XML developers, should start adopting the > modular approach > used in XHTML and XSL/XSLT. Using this approach, XFA/XFDL can remove > overlaps with XHTML modules and then divide up the remainder > into several > modules. Result would be far more understandable, supportable, and > reusable. > > Small, simple, modular XML standards is what I would like to see. > > Best, > > Don Park > Docuverse > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From hoxford at dtai.com Mon Jul 5 23:32:24 1999 From: hoxford at dtai.com (Hank Oxford) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: archetype refinement in XML Schemas Message-ID: <378125AE.571AFE4C@dtai.com> As I'm busily working on implementing some tools to work with the XML Schema WD I came across a question I thought would be good to throw in here for discussion. It seems to me that handling refinement of archetypes is going to be a pain with the way the archetype and refines tags are set up in the XML Schema WD. The modified attributes are outside of the refines tag which makes it more difficult to match the changes with the originals. I liked the model SOX used for implements and extends much better. Has anyone else looked at this at all? Any opinions? -- Hank Oxford DTAI, Incorporated hoxford@dtai.com 3900 Harney St Suite 210 1-619-542-7243 San Diego, CA 92110 1-888-222-3824 x243 http://www.dtai.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com Mon Jul 5 23:45:51 1999 From: harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com (Betty L. Harvey) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: State Information In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tim: You may want to look at the work that has been done previously with Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals (IETM). One of the requirements of an IETM is that it maintains a state table. Although what you want to do is different information than and IETM, the concepts are the same. The information can be maintained and accessed in XML. The current DoD IETM specifications are SGML based but it may give you some ideas (I have to admit the Specs aren't easy reading |-). You can get information on the IETM specs at http://navycals.dt.navy.mil/ietm. Betty Harvey /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Betty Harvey | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268 Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. | 13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333 | Germantown, Md. 20874 | harvey@eccnet.com | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp URL: http://www.eccnet.com | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/ On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Matthews, Tim wrote: > Is there a way to save state information inside of an XML document? What I > am interested in doing is keeping information about transactions or > disposition of messages within the XML documents themselves. > > Thanks, > > Tim > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Tue Jul 6 00:46:47 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) References: Message-ID: <004501bec738$75004300$334ffea9@litebook> Off topic response to memory issue - not XML Memory - The human brain is a neural network - this means we do not have menory like in a computer but a memory system that approximates the original input. It is pattern recognition and pattern recognition is approximate at best. The consciousness is updated by:- current context inputs long term memory What is in the conscious memory acts as an "address" (a pattern input) to the long term memory which responds with more data added to the short term memory and this conscious memory. ie there is a feed back mechansim operating and what and how people recognise and think is very much determined by their past learning. There is also inaccuracies in this system - error: Marijuana -tetro hydro cannanabol lowers neuron threshold, this more "data references" are available in the consciousness and the conscious memory will "expand" with lots of data. A point is reached where a high is reached and this feels good. BUT the quality of this data is lower than normal and this low quality data is used to update the long term memory - thus the quality of the long term memory is lowered and long term Dope smokers have great difficulty coping with the world. The point here is:- memory is specific to individuals - there is no generality about different people's ability to remember. Some exposed to lots of numbers will remember - with practice lots, others can not remember any. do not pin hopes on any one number - identify the nature of the person first. The short term memory ----- Original Message ----- From: Didier PH Martin To: ; Sent: Sunday, July 04, 1999 9:23 AM Subject: RE: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) > Hi Andy, > > I said gifted without mentioning that this skill is the result or nature or > of culture or even practice or any other kind of emotional state or source. > I agree that the word was badly chosen. > > This said, it seems (from observation and experiments) that long term memory > is more influenced by emotional state than short term memory. Miller > referred to some experiments but these experiments tell us nothing about > short term memory being influenced by emotional state or practice. From > observation and experiments, we have indications that long term memory is > influenced by emotional state. But it seems that short term memory is not as > sensible to this variable. So, being open to your arguments, do you have any > article or study specifying explicitly that short term memory is influenced > by emotional state or practice? > > regards > Didier PH Martin > mailto:martind@netfolder.com > http://www.netfolder.com > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:23 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word > 2000?? ) > > > > > Didier wrote: > >The magic seven comes from a well know article form George Miller in 1956 > >called "The Magical Number Seven, Plus or Minus Two: Some Limits on our > >Capacity for Processing Information". In this now famous article, Miller > >stated that the short term memory can handle 7 elements plus or minus 2. > >This means that gifted people can remember with their short term memory 9 > >elements and the less gifted 5. The average person can remember 7 > > Just for the sake of accuracy, this has nothing whatever to do with being > gifted. > > Miller's article simply records certain experiments (carried out by other > researchers) and notes the overall implications. > > In practise, unless you are skilled in memorisation techniques, the amount > of information you can carry in working memory will vary according to > context, emotional state, interest in the material being memorised and so > on. > > Regards > > Andy B. > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN > 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From litebook at powerup.com.au Tue Jul 6 02:04:51 1999 From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: XML for forms References: Message-ID: <009b01bec742$efe3b840$334ffea9@litebook> Thanks Gavin - I agree KISS keep it short and simple is the way to go: For a forms input and printing function I looked at the possibilities of: Data: XML format for data specified by a DTD: Screen: XSL format for screen Adding data to a Screen: Xlink Taking data from the screen XPointer (Some Xpointer or Xlink specification for identifying the data on a form and putting data into a screen) Would this then be using the existing basic XML specs rather than building new ones Perhaps your XFA is really just another way of including all the XSL, Xpointer. Xlink, XML etc and packaging it into a specification that is a selected set of the these? I really must study your XFA in much more detail but it does seem to have the functionality I am looking for. I could possibly use your Jetform forms designer as part of my overall package approach. My market target was going to be the smaller business and the big business to small customer, Plumbing supplier to client plumber as an example. I was going to try to produce a package that allowed business to communicate with each other through emailed encripted forms. - not really an accounting package more a filing system. regards Trevor Croll Your views would be most welcome ----- Original Message ----- From: Gavin McKenzie To: 'Trevor Croll' Cc: Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 11:32 PM Subject: RE: XML for forms > > Trevor, > > [And I extend this invitation to the general public] > > As the editor of the XFA specifications I would be happy to try and address > some of your more detailed questions. My ability to keep up on XML-Dev is > very inconsistent (as is clear from the fact that it has taken me this long > to pick up on this thread). Direct email is always easier for me. > > We (JetForm) wish to not require form data to be anything more than well > formed XML. There is a whole range of initiatives springing up around > schemas and data definition -- not something I want to get in the way of. I > expect that this bubble of extreme growth will pop in the not too distant > future and collapse into a few de facto technologies and techniques. IMHO > the Keep It Simple approach to data (i.e. well formed XML) is the safest > 'today' approach. > > Gavin. > > ======================================================== > Gavin F. McKenzie mailto:gmckenzi@jetform.com > Systems Architect Vox:+1(613)230-3676 > JetForm Corporation or:+1(613)751-4800 ext 5277 > http://www.jetform.com Fax:+1(613)751-4864 > ======================================================== > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jul 6 02:48:04 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: Off-topic: Magic Number 7 (WAS: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? ) In-Reply-To: <004501bec738$75004300$334ffea9@litebook> Message-ID: Hi Trevor Trevor said: The point here is:- memory is specific to individuals - there is no generality about different people's ability to remember. Some exposed to lots of numbers will remember - with practice lots, others can not remember any. do not pin hopes on any one number - identify the nature of the person first. Didier says: I won't continue this thread in the XML list because it is more appropriate in a psychology discussion group. However, to respond to your point, training do not affect short memory capacity but uses it more efficiently by using tricks like story telling, image associations, etc... In fact, by using such tricks the chucking mechanism is more powerful and refer to bigger set of data. Your point about mind expansion reminds me some Timothy Larry arguments in the 60s. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz Tue Jul 6 05:03:43 1999 From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:43 2004 Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML Message-ID: <37817298.7F950DC9@auckland.ac.nz> Hi everybody I'm on the lookout for a tool that will allow me to pretty print XML files in such a manner that they can be pasted into an HTML page. For example, I would like to transform to (hope the line wrapping doesn't make this too confusing) 
      <element1 name="bar">
...

You get the idea. All attributes are coloured red, attribute values blue,
element names green, CDATA yellow, etc. (Yuck, that looks hideous).
Whitespace is preserved, so that "longName" is under "name" in element2.

Preferably, all of this without having to do a bunch of coding in XSL or
otherwise. Surely, someone must have already done this - it would be a
pretty simple PERL script given a well-formed file. I had a look on
xmlsoftware.com but couldn't find anything.


Thanks in advance


-- 
Warren Hedley
Department of Engineering Science
Auckland University
New Zealand

Tel   :(64 9) 373 7599 (x 5808)
Fax   :(64 9) 373 7468
Email : w.hedley@auckland.ac.nz
WWW   : http://purl.oclc.org/NET/whedley/
     or http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/Hedley/

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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  6 11:50:09 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:43 2004
Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren Hedley [mailto:w.hedley@auckland.ac.nz]

> I'm on the lookout for a tool that will allow me to pretty print
> XML files in such a manner that they can be pasted into an HTML
> page. For example, I would like to transform
> 
> 
>                longName="barNone"/>
> 
> 
> to (hope the line wrapping doesn't make this too confusing)
> 
> 
      > <element1  color="#00ff00">name=" color="#0000ff">bar">
> ...
> 
> You get the idea. All attributes are coloured red, attribute 
> values blue,
> element names green, CDATA yellow, etc. (Yuck, that looks hideous).
> Whitespace is preserved, so that "longName" is under "name" 
> in element2.
> 
> Preferably, all of this without having to do a bunch of 
> coding in XSL or
> otherwise. Surely, someone must have already done this - it would be a
> pretty simple PERL script given a well-formed file. I had a look on
> xmlsoftware.com but couldn't find anything.

OK. Here's an attempt:

use XML::Parser;

print XML::Parser->new(Handlers => {
	# Handlers using closures, except Start 'cos it's more complex.
	# $_[0] is the expat object where we store the HTML output
	Init => sub { $_[0]->{html} = '
      ' },
	Final => sub { return $_[0]->{html} },
	Start => \&start,
	End => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '</' . $_[1] .
'>' },
	Char => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= "$_[1]" },
	CdataStart => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '' },
	CdataEnd => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '' },
	}
)->parsefile($ARGV[0]);

sub start {
	my $expat = shift;
	my $element = shift;
	my %attribs = @_;

	$expat->{html} .= '<' . $element . '';
	if (%attribs) {
		foreach (keys %attribs) {
			$expat->{html} .= ' ' . $_ . 
				'="' .
				$attribs{$_}.
				'"';
		}
	}
	$expat->{html} .= '>';
}

I've written it so it bundles up the HTML instead of printing it as it goes
so you can embed it in some other application (presumably you want to print
out something as well as just the XML - like a body and html tags), but you
could easily modify it. If using it in another app change the "print
XML::Parser..." for "my $html = XML::Parser..." and do something with $html.

Have fun.

BTW: An XML parser doesn't maintain any whitespace between attribute tags -
but I guess you could dump what I've done here for a large regexp system if
you really need that feature.

Matt.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jul  6 13:10:05 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:43 2004
Subject: State Information
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Hi Betty,

I tried to reach the link you mentionned and it does not seems to no longer
exist or is no longer available.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Betty L. Harvey
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:50 PM
To: Matthews, Tim
Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
Subject: Re: State Information



Tim:

You may want to look at the work that has been done previously
with Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals (IETM).  One of the
requirements of an IETM is that it maintains a state table.
Although what you want to do is different information than
and IETM, the concepts are the same.

The information can be maintained and accessed in XML.  The
current DoD IETM specifications are SGML based but it may
give you some ideas (I have to admit the Specs aren't easy
reading |-).

You can get information on the IETM specs at
http://navycals.dt.navy.mil/ietm.

Betty Harvey

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   |
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Matthews, Tim wrote:

> Is there a way to save state information inside of an XML document?  What
I
> am interested in doing is keeping information about transactions or
> disposition of messages within the XML documents themselves.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tim
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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981-02-3594-1
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From nico at echange.fr  Tue Jul  6 14:25:05 1999
From: nico at echange.fr (Nicolas MONNET)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:43 2004
Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
Message-ID: 


(Using Perl+Expat)

I'm writing a temlpate system. Original is XML. Is it legal / sensible to
use entitites as template place holders? Like, vairable or something.

Example (bogus):

(...)


(..)

The HTML:IMG's ALT parameter will then contain "Great".

What do you guys think?

Then, is it ok to use a colon in an entity name? I knkow, I should do my
homework.

--
Many are called, few are chosen.  Fewer still choose.




xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com  Tue Jul  6 14:24:14 1999
From: harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com (Betty L. Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:43 2004
Subject: State Information
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Sorry, I left off the .html.  It is:

	http://navysgml.dt.navy.mil/ietm.html

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. | 
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   | 
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/  



On Sun, 4 Jul 1999, Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Hi Betty,
> 
> I tried to reach the link you mentionned and it does not seems to no longer
> exist or is no longer available.
> 
> regards
> Didier PH Martin
> mailto:martind@netfolder.com
> http://www.netfolder.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Betty L. Harvey
> Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 5:50 PM
> To: Matthews, Tim
> Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
> Subject: Re: State Information
> 
> 
> 
> Tim:
> 
> You may want to look at the work that has been done previously
> with Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals (IETM).  One of the
> requirements of an IETM is that it maintains a state table.
> Although what you want to do is different information than
> and IETM, the concepts are the same.
> 
> The information can be maintained and accessed in XML.  The
> current DoD IETM specifications are SGML based but it may
> give you some ideas (I have to admit the Specs aren't easy
> reading |-).
> 
> You can get information on the IETM specs at
> http://navycals.dt.navy.mil/ietm.
> 
> Betty Harvey
> 
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
> Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
> Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
> 13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   |
> Germantown, Md.  20874               |
> harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
> URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/
> /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 5 Jul 1999, Matthews, Tim wrote:
> 
> > Is there a way to save state information inside of an XML document?  What
> I
> > am interested in doing is keeping information about transactions or
> > disposition of messages within the XML documents themselves.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Tim
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> > (un)subscribe xml-dev
> > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> message;
> > subscribe xml-dev-digest
> > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> >
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 


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From nmanson at livepage.com  Tue Jul  6 14:27:39 1999
From: nmanson at livepage.com (Nick Manson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: PC Magazine: XML-RPC
In-Reply-To: <000101bec720$47d6e860$6bbbfea9@w21tp>
Message-ID: <000501bec7ab$351f95b0$ea8f92d1@livepage.com>

Other general questions about XML-RPC:

1) Is there an official mail list or workgroup for XML-RPC?
2) Are there any competing standards with XML-RPC?
3) Does XML-RPC have a W3C note?  If not, is one upcoming? 



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Don Park
> Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 3:55 PM
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: PC Magazine: XML-RPC
> 
> 
> Dave,
> 
> Using XML-RPC, how does a client:
> 
> 1. Get a list of all the available methods and their signature 
> (i.e. args)?
> 2. Send XML fragments as an argument.
> 3. Send and receive anonymous streams as argument and as result?
> 
> Don
> 


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From jasr at im.se  Tue Jul  6 15:03:22 1999
From: jasr at im.se (Serrat Jaime - jasr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Is this legal in a DTD?
Message-ID: <389DA7CB46CFD111A0D100600836AD65E66E9A@msxmar1>

I was wondering if the following would be possible in a DTD.  Consider:




      <========= Alternative!



I've seen OR in the context of element attributes, of course, but what about
in element definitions?

-- jaime "jim" serrat

Team Manager of PDA08 - Messaging Engine	Office: 	+1
609-797-3227
Product Development				Fax:	+1 609-797-6660
Industri-Matematik				Mobile:	+1 609-315-3338
Five Greentree Centre				Web:	http://www.im.se
Marlton, NJ 08053				Email:	jasr@im.se


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From james at xmltree.com  Tue Jul  6 15:25:13 1999
From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: PC Magazine: XML-RPC
References: <000501bec7ab$351f95b0$ea8f92d1@livepage.com>
Message-ID: <00db01bec7b3$3d0ce040$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com>

Nick and Don

I too have been looking into these specs over the last few days.

> 1) Is there an official mail list or workgroup for XML-RPC?
I think everything is centred at http://www.xml-rpc.com/

> 2) Are there any competing standards with XML-RPC?
See WDDX at http://wddx.org : designed for exchanging data sets / data structures between
client / server and server / server; commentary on integration with xml-rpc at
http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$2082
See LDO at http://www.ntlug.org/casbah/; commentary on bringing together with xml-rpc at
http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$2583

> > 1. Get a list of all the available methods and their signature
> > (i.e. args)?
See this discussion :
http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$2829

> > 2. Send XML fragments as an argument.
> > 3. Send and receive anonymous streams as argument and as result?
>From the spec, for the request:
If the procedure call has parameters, the  must contain a  sub-item.
The  sub-item can contain any number of s, each of which has a .

Scalar s
s can be scalars, type is indicated by nesting the value inside one of the tags
listed in this table:

Tag Type Example
 or  four-byte signed integer -12
 0 (false) or 1 (true) 1
 ASCII string hello world
 double-precision signed floating point number -12.214
 date/time 19980717T14:08:55
 base64-encoded binary eW91IGNhbid0IHJlYWQgdGhpcyE=

For the response:
The body of the response is a single XML structure, a , which can contain
a single  which contains a single  which contains a single .

xmlTree lists two xml-rpc interfaces at
http://www.xmltree.com/resource/detail.cfm/ContainerID/10/ResourceID/224 and at
http://www.xmltree.com/resource/detail.cfm/ContainerID/38/ResourceID/500

Hope this helps.

Best regards,
James Carlyle

james@xmltree.com
www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web


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From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu  Tue Jul  6 15:27:27 1999
From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Is this legal in a DTD?
References: <389DA7CB46CFD111A0D100600836AD65E66E9A@msxmar1>
Message-ID: <378204B2.C41CA4D4@goon.stg.brown.edu>

> Serrat Jaime - jasr wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if the following would be possible in a DTD...
[example deleted]

Just for the record, there are a number of online validators you can
use to answer questions of this sort (some of them written by active
participants in this mailing list).  I don't mean this as a critique.
This forum is pretty welcoming when it comes to basic questions.  You
just may find it faster and easier to run this sort of problem by a
validator first.

To use a validator in this way, wrap up a DTD slice in a simple XML
document:

 
   
   
  
   
   
]>


Then run it through an online validator.

Our validator lives at:

  http://www.stg.brown.edu/service/xmlvalid/

Another nice validator may be found at:

  http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~richard/xml-check.html

This page contains links to several additional validators.

-- 

Richard Goerwitz
PGP key fingerprint:    C1 3E F4 23 7C 33 51 8D  3B 88 53 57 56 0D 38 A0
For more info (mail, phone, fax no.):  finger richard@goon.stg.brown.edu

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Tue Jul  6 15:26:48 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Is this legal in a DTD?
Message-ID: <01BEC7C3.EF5ECC30@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Serrat Jaime wrote:

> I was wondering if the following would be possible in a DTD.  Consider:
> 
> 
> 
> 
>       <========= Alternative!
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen OR in the context of element attributes, of course, but what about
> in element definitions?

Yes, it is legal.

-- Ron Bourret


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jul  6 15:32:27 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFB4@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

> From: Warren Hedley [mailto:w.hedley@auckland.ac.nz]
> Hi everybody
> 
> I'm on the lookout for a tool that will allow me to pretty print
> XML files in such a manner that they can be pasted into an HTML
> page. For example, I would like to transform

> to (hope the line wrapping doesn't make this too confusing)

> You get the idea. All attributes are coloured red, attribute 
> values blue,
> element names green, CDATA yellow, etc. (Yuck, that looks hideous).
> Whitespace is preserved, so that "longName" is under "name" 
> in element2.
> 
> Preferably, all of this without having to do a bunch of 
> coding in XSL or
> otherwise. Surely, someone must have already done this - it would be a
> pretty simple PERL script given a well-formed file. I had a look on
> xmlsoftware.com but couldn't find anything.

Okay, I know you said you don't want to have to do a bunch of XSL coding,
but you might want to look at the default XSL file used by
Microsoft to display XML documents in the IE5 browser.  It takes any XML
file and displays it in the browser as a collapsible tree, complete with
some colour coding.  I'm betting that you could modify it to get the exact
styling you're looking for.  You can download it at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/samples/defaultss/defaultss.xsl

Hope this helps.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mediaserv.com
MediaServ Information Architects
http://www.MediaServ.com

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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  6 15:41:21 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolas MONNET [mailto:nico@echange.fr]
> 
> (Using Perl+Expat)
> 
> I'm writing a temlpate system. Original is XML. Is it legal / 
> sensible to
> use entitites as template place holders? Like, vairable or something.
> 
> Example (bogus):
> 
> (...)
> 
> 
> (..)
> 
> The HTML:IMG's ALT parameter will then contain "Great".

No it won't. It's not valid XML. You can't do what you want to do - use
something else. Try a dollar or something - people will be used to that sort
of thing both from perl and from XSL.

Matt.

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Tue Jul  6 16:04:16 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
Message-ID: <01BEC7C9.2B814A80@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Matt Sergeant wrote:

> > I'm writing a temlpate system. Original is XML. Is it legal /
> > sensible to
> > use entitites as template place holders? Like, vairable or something.
> >
> > Example (bogus):
> >
> > (...)
> > 
> > 
> > (..)
> >
> > The HTML:IMG's ALT parameter will then contain "Great".
>
> No it won't. It's not valid XML. You can't do what you want to do - use
> something else. Try a dollar or something - people will be used to that 
sort
> of thing both from perl and from XSL.

The syntax shown is incorrect, but the idea is valid. That is, you can 
refer to an internal general entity in an attribute value (see section 
4.4.5 of the XML spec). The correct syntax for the entity declaration is:

   

Note that this declaration must be in the internal subset. References to 
external general entities in attribute values are illegal.

-- Ron Bourret


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From dave at userland.com  Tue Jul  6 16:10:35 1999
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: PC Magazine: XML-RPC
In-Reply-To: <000501bec7ab$351f95b0$ea8f92d1@livepage.com>
References: <000101bec720$47d6e860$6bbbfea9@w21tp>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990706065948.00be62d0@mail.userland.com>

There is a mail list, but it is inactive. Most of the discussion about 
XML-RPC seems to happen on our web discussion group, discuss.userland.com.

Re competition, there's nothing as widely deployed as XML-RPC. I'm sure the 
DataChannel guys will say that WebBroker is there, it's a note of some kind 
on the W3C site, but I don't think there are any public implementations of 
WebBroker.

***Regarding future competition

We've been working with Microsoft since March 1998, that's where the 
original XML-RPC spec came from, we spun it out, while Microsoft debated 
internally about various details. Every few months they say they're ready 
to release the new spec, when and if that should happen (I've learned to be 
"realistic" about this) we will keep moving XML-RPC *and* we will 
wholeheartedly support what MS is doing, at least based on what we've seen 
to-date.

Our experience is that big companies like to do their own distributed 
computing specs, and as long as they're compatible at a certain level, this 
is not a terribly bad thing and is worth supporting to avoid being 
"crushed" (the press loves do-or-die faceoffs, I'm determined to confuse 
the hell out of them at least in this area).

To answer your final question, we have not submitted XML-RPC to W3C. If 
they loosen up their membership rules and allow individuals to be involved 
without paying a fee we'll be happy to work with them. Some compromise is 
needed. Right now all the implementations come from either small companies 
or individuals, they're doing excellent work, and it would be stupid of us 
to hand this over to W3C without a change in their way of working. I 
understand that they need money to operate, but also am aware that this 
cuts them off from excellent work being done in the open source and 
scripting worlds.

BTW, this morning Useful Inc shipped a PHP client for XML-RPC. It's really 
going to be hard to beat this one. So much energy is building..

Dave Winer
UserLand Software

At 05:29 AM 7/6/99 , Nick Manson wrote:
>Other general questions about XML-RPC:
>
>1) Is there an official mail list or workgroup for XML-RPC?
>2) Are there any competing standards with XML-RPC?
>3) Does XML-RPC have a W3C note?  If not, is one upcoming?
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> > Don Park
> > Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 3:55 PM
> > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Subject: RE: PC Magazine: XML-RPC
> >
> >
> > Dave,
> >
> > Using XML-RPC, how does a client:
> >
> > 1. Get a list of all the available methods and their signature
> > (i.e. args)?
> > 2. Send XML fragments as an argument.
> > 3. Send and receive anonymous streams as argument and as result?
> >
> > Don
> >
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on 
>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
>(un)subscribe xml-dev
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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul  6 16:28:17 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:44 2004
Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ronald Bourret [mailto:rbourret@ito.tu-darmstadt.de]
> 
> The syntax shown is incorrect, but the idea is valid. That 
> is, you can 
> refer to an internal general entity in an attribute value 
> (see section 
> 4.4.5 of the XML spec). The correct syntax for the entity 
> declaration is:
> 
>    

You misunderstood what the original poster was trying to do.

Matt.

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From stark at corp.phone.com  Tue Jul  6 17:33:30 1999
From: stark at corp.phone.com (Peter Stark)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000a01bec7c5$8d3b48b0$3dbce8d0@pstark.phone.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Nicolas MONNET
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 6:35 AM
> To: xml-app@sunsite.auc.dk; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: Entities as template placeholders?
>
>
>
> (Using Perl+Expat)
>
> I'm writing a temlpate system. Original is XML. Is it legal / sensible to
> use entitites as template place holders? Like, vairable or something.
>
> Example (bogus):
>
> (...)
> 
> 
> (..)
>
> The HTML:IMG's ALT parameter will then contain "Great".
>
> What do you guys think?
>

The Wireless Markup Language (WML) has state and variables.

You can pass variables from one document to another, and change variable
values as a response to certain events. One document can be divided up into
smaller documents, cards, (one card corresponds to one screen, or user
interaction) and you can pass variables from one card to another within the
same document. The dollar sign is used for variable names (e.g. $myvar).

WML is used in mobile phones. Variables and state makes it possible to
create applications with minimal over-the-air round-trips.

The latest version is 1.1, specification is available at
http://www.wapforum.org/what/technical.htm

Before WML is sent to the phones, it's often tokenized (compressed into a
binary format) by a proxy. The specification for this binary XML format is
available at http://www.w3.org/1999/06/NOTE-wbxml-19990624


Peter Stark
Phone.com


> Then, is it ok to use a colon in an entity name? I knkow, I should do my
> homework.
>
> --
> Many are called, few are chosen.  Fewer still choose.
>
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> following message;
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>
>


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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Tue Jul  6 17:56:23 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML for forms
References: <3.0.32.19990705115616.0118d6b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <3782278A.756D3B81@locke.ccil.org>

Tim Bray wrote:
> As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is
> here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value
> pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T.

Disclaimer: NAL.

Any legal document draws most of its meaning from context.
A telegram that says "SELL HUNDRED THOUSAND SHARES IBM SHORT"
(only 190 bits in 5-bit Baudot code plus appropriate headers)
is as good a legal document as any, even sans digital signature.

-- 
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@ccil.org
   Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
   Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From John.Martin at ncmail.net  Tue Jul  6 20:01:13 1999
From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: Headings: XML vs. XSL
Message-ID: <378244C8.75A66E5D@ncmail.net>

In general, is it better to code headings into XML or to handle them
with XSL?  For instance, I want my output to look like:

Effective date:  July 1, 1999

Would I code my DTD as


Effective Date:
July 1, 1999


Or would it be better/more efficient to code it as:

July 1, 1999

and add the heading in with XSL.

Thanks,
John



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From james at xmltree.com  Tue Jul  6 20:32:57 1999
From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: Headings: XML vs. XSL
References: <378244C8.75A66E5D@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <01a301bec7de$29e4cc00$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com>

John

> In general, is it better to code headings into XML or to handle them
> with XSL?  For instance, I want my output to look like:

With respect, I don't think that your problem is unique or new to xml/xsl.

For example, if you build an "old-fashioned" 2 tier client server application with Visual
Basic and SQL Server, do you store the labels for the controls on the forms in the
database, or hard code them on the form?

The decision depends upon whether the label / heading is likely to vary over time.  If so,
then storing the date without the associated meaning "Effective Date" is meaningless, and
you need to also store the heading in the xml.

If, on the other hand, the value of  will always be "Effective
Date:" then you could make this explicit in the design of the document
i.e. July 1, 1999

Best regards,
James Carlyle

james@xmltree.com
www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web


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From simpson at polaris.net  Tue Jul  6 20:42:28 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: Headings: XML vs. XSL
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990706144316.007f6a50@polaris.net>

At 02:02 PM 7/6/1999 -0400, John Martin wrote:
>Would I code my DTD [actually, your document!] as
>
>Effective Date:
>July 1, 1999
>
>
>Or would it be better/more efficient to code it as:
>
>July 1, 1999
>
>and add the heading in with XSL.

It's kind of a toss-up, I think. One thing to consider, though, is that
your first choice will work as is (w/out XSL) with CSS1- and
partial-CSS2-compliant browsers which don't yet support CSS's
generated-text feature. The first choice also makes it easier to customize
headings which might vary by document instance; whether that's an issue
depends on your application.

=============================================================
John E. Simpson          | It's no disgrace t'be poor, 
simpson@polaris.net      | but it might as well be.
                         |            -- "Kin" Hubbard

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From John.Martin at ncmail.net  Tue Jul  6 20:47:07 1999
From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML and COBOL
Message-ID: <37824F90.BA3AE171@ncmail.net>

I have the need to implement COBOL applications on a IBM mainframe
computer that will be responsible for parsing and creating XML
documents. Can anyone point me toward a good tool that could be called
from within a COBOL application to parse / create XML. The mainframe
environment is CICS, OS/MVS. Any help would be greatly appreciated!



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From ken_north at csi.com  Tue Jul  6 22:38:35 1999
From: ken_north at csi.com (Ken North)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML and COBOL
Message-ID: <000d01bec7ef$bb1b6b00$0500a8c0@platinum>

<< I have the need to implement COBOL applications on a IBM mainframe
computer that will be responsible for parsing and creating XML
documents. Can anyone point me toward a good tool that could be called
from within a COBOL application to parse / create XML. The mainframe
environment is CICS, OS/MVS. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

John,

I know there has been a lot of talk about Object COBOL, but I don't know
if anyone is shipping a product. The problem is that traditional COBOL
does not do string processing very well so it will be a challenge to
write a parser in COBOL. You should probably investigate COBOL-callable
libraries written in C or assembly language.


================== Ken North =============================
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ken_North
ken_north@csi.com  71301.1306@compuserve.com  KenNorth@msn.com
Ken North Computing   2604B El Camino Real, #351 Carlsbad, CA 92008-1214
===========================================================



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From srnm at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  7 00:30:33 1999
From: srnm at yahoo.com (Steven Marcus)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML and COBOL
Message-ID: <19990706223243.10953.rocketmail@web118.yahoomail.com>


If you are running a relatively recent release of OS/390 (not
MVS) you can use an XML parser written in Java. IBM's java
parser is available at alphaworks.ibm.com and supports
EBCDIC<->Unicode conversions.

You can integrate your COBOL and Java environments thru the file
system bridge available with java-OS/390, or via DB/2. There may
be other ways of passing data between Java apps and COBOL but
someone else will have to speak up.

[Also, I have been told that OS/390 should support IBM's C++ XML
parser if you install the UNIX-compatibility services.]

Good luck!
Steven Marcus
Aware Technologies, Inc.

--- Ken North  wrote:
> << I have the need to implement COBOL applications on a IBM
> mainframe
> computer that will be responsible for parsing and creating XML
> documents. Can anyone point me toward a good tool that could
> be called
> from within a COBOL application to parse / create XML. The
> mainframe
> environment is CICS, OS/MVS. Any help would be greatly
> appreciated!
> 
> John,
> 
> I know there has been a lot of talk about Object COBOL, but I
> don't know
> if anyone is shipping a product. The problem is that
> traditional COBOL
> does not do string processing very well so it will be a
> challenge to
> write a parser in COBOL. You should probably investigate
> COBOL-callable
> libraries written in C or assembly language.
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ken_North
> ken_north@csi.com  71301.1306@compuserve.com  KenNorth@msn.com
> Ken North Computing   2604B El Camino Real, #351 Carlsbad, CA
> 92008-1214
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and
> on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
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> following message;
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> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 
> 

_________________________________________________________
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Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From ken_north at csi.com  Wed Jul  7 01:13:32 1999
From: ken_north at csi.com (Ken North)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML and COBOL
Message-ID: <001101bec805$521ee260$0500a8c0@platinum>

Steven Marcus wrote:

<< If you are running a relatively recent release of OS/390 (not
MVS) you can use an XML parser written in Java. IBM's java
parser is available at alphaworks.ibm.com and supports
EBCDIC<->Unicode conversions.

You can integrate your COBOL and Java environments thru the file
system bridge available with java-OS/390, or via DB/2. There may
be other ways of passing data between Java apps and COBOL but
someone else will have to speak up.

Steven,

The issue isn't being able to bridge data and files, but being able to
process information in memory. The forthcoming DB2 XML Extender will
include the capability of bridging XML files and mapping them to DB2
columns. That's not the problem.

The problem is working with in-memory structures to process document
objects or events. The extant XML parsers support the Document Object
Model (DOM) and SAX (events). If you use a Java XML parser that targets
DOM, for example, it produces an object structure Java understands, but
not COBOL. You'd have to write a library that interfaces COBOL to Java
objects using CALLs, not disk READs and WRITEs.

Not an easy proposition -- unless someone has implemented Object COBOL
with bindings for IDL, Java, etc.


================== Ken North =============================
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ken_North
ken_north@csi.com  71301.1306@compuserve.com  KenNorth@msn.com
Ken North Computing   2604B El Camino Real, #351 Carlsbad, CA 92008-1214
===========================================================



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From droddey at charmedquark.com  Wed Jul  7 01:45:39 1999
From: droddey at charmedquark.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: Yet another stupid namespace question...
Message-ID: <000101bec80b$20367d70$6679a8c0@cqs_pdc.charmedquark.com>

Ok, so I'm looking forward to implementing Schema support in XML4C/J, and
maybe I'm missing something, but I want to make sure.

Ok, lets say we have an element declaration, in Schema terms in this case so
it defines both the URI and the name of the element being declared.

Now, I see an element in the document content that I need to scan and
process the attributes of. But, lets say that one of the attributes of the
element, one that defines the default namespace of that element, is
defaulted in in the element declaration's attribute list.

I have to look up the element declaration in order to validate the
attributes and/or fault in defaulted and fixed attributes. However, since we
are now in the new Schema world, I have to know the full {uri}name form of
the name in order to look it up, because its no longer a lexical lookup in
the Schema world.

But, I cannot look up the element declaration until I know the URI that
applies to the element name. If the element name has no prefix, then it
falls under the default namespace (which can be set by one of its own
attributes.) But, since I cannot know the name of the element until I can
resolve the URI it belongs to, I cannot know whether there is a defaulted or
fixed attribute of that element which might set the default namespace
(because I cannot look up the element declaration.)

So, am I missing something or is this a Catch-22? Does this mean that Schema
cannot allow defaulting or fixing of namespace attributes because of the new
need to to logical lookup of element declarations, instead of lexical?

--------------------------
Dean Roddey
The CIDLib Class Libraries
Charmed Quark Software
droddey@charmedquark.com
http://www.charmedquark.com

"100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it"


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From jes at kuantech.com  Wed Jul  7 01:59:43 1999
From: jes at kuantech.com (Jeffrey E. Sussna)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: URN Namespace Registration
Message-ID: <000601bec80b$6430ae60$7e18a8c0@jsussna.quokka.com>

Does anyone know whether the proposed URN namespace registration process has
moved forward?

TIA,
Jeff Sussna


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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Wed Jul  7 02:34:38 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML is it happening the right way
References: <001101bec805$521ee260$0500a8c0@platinum>
Message-ID: <008701bec810$ad5037a0$334ffea9@litebook>

Having looked at so much XML I'm beginning to think that it is all going
wrong. Many separate groups are developing specific purpose proposals when
one properly organised one could do the JOB.

Take XML as the syntax
take XSL as a display style sheet language
then add to these additional functionality for eg.. Forms, Variables,
Wireless, Maths, Chemistry etc...

What seems to be happening is that the Forms people are re-doing XSL and
Xpointer and Xlink and adding new stuff
The Maths are re-doing it
ie.. every specification is a rework of other specifications instead of an
organised addition to the existing specification.

Specs are being defined for applications not for function. I predict the Net
result will be a confusion and conflicts between specifications if some
general order is not restored.

In other words - the XML thing is diversifying into lots of little deviants
instead of accumulating into one grand specification.


Trevor Croll
Litebook Computers
Australia
If we all stand together we can be stronger than when we all stand alone.





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From amd0978 at acf3.nyu.edu  Wed Jul  7 03:07:13 1999
From: amd0978 at acf3.nyu.edu (Adam M Donahue)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: <000a01bec686$4a5abb10$27bce8d0@pstark.phone.com>
Message-ID: 

> It's the HTML working group. If you are a member of the W3C, go to the HTML
> WG's web page, and you fill find a whole lot of forms related input and a
> requirements document.

Is there a good reason this isn't open to everyone?  

Adam


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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Wed Jul  7 03:16:54 1999
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML is it happening the right way
References: <001101bec805$521ee260$0500a8c0@platinum> <008701bec810$ad5037a0$334ffea9@litebook>
Message-ID: <3782B189.AC71075E@finetuning.com>

Hey Trevor:

Chill out.  There's nothing to worry about.

The great thing about XML is that "groups" doing one thing or another
won't hurt the core language in any way; what might be the case if
everything were coming out of one centralized location.

The W3C takes care of the syntax part of it -- so all these different
variants can still talk to each other.  When the languages comply with
XML v 1.0 syntax, translation isn't automatic, but it is possible to
accomplish, if needed.

It may indeed seem overwhelming at first, because there are going to be
so many choices (I myself am becoming rather overwhelmed as of late
trying to soak in all the developments and then present them in a timely
manner in a way that will be useful to other people), but I think once
we all get used to this very different idea of FLEXIBILITY of expression
(achieved through a strict syntax), we will begin to appreciate the
advantages of this approach.


enjoy the ride,

lisa rein
http://www.finetuning.com
Trevor Croll wrote:
> 
> Having looked at so much XML I'm beginning to think that it is all going
> wrong. Many separate groups are developing specific purpose proposals when
> one properly organised one could do the JOB.
> 
> Take XML as the syntax
> take XSL as a display style sheet language
> then add to these additional functionality for eg.. Forms, Variables,
> Wireless, Maths, Chemistry etc...
> 
> What seems to be happening is that the Forms people are re-doing XSL and
> Xpointer and Xlink and adding new stuff
> The Maths are re-doing it
> ie.. every specification is a rework of other specifications instead of an
> organised addition to the existing specification.
> 
> Specs are being defined for applications not for function. I predict the Net
> result will be a confusion and conflicts between specifications if some
> general order is not restored.
> 
> In other words - the XML thing is diversifying into lots of little deviants
> instead of accumulating into one grand specification.
> 
> Trevor Croll
> Litebook Computers
> Australia
> If we all stand together we can be stronger than when we all stand alone.
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

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From ejfreed at infocanvas.com  Wed Jul  7 04:21:20 1999
From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik Freed)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:45 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <09b601bec81f$f915cf10$f5f6b5cf@evans.dnai.com>

As a representative for a company that can not afford to
'join' the w3c, I depressingly have to live behind the times at all times. I
am
sure they are well intentioned, but waiting for corporate representatives to
lob a finished standard over the net well after they have established their
corporate
strategies around their advanced knowledge sure does not seem in the spirit
of the whole thing does it?

However if I did have the money to join...

erik

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Adam M Donahue
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 6:10 PM
To: Peter Stark
Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


> It's the HTML working group. If you are a member of the W3C, go to the
HTML
> WG's web page, and you fill find a whole lot of forms related input and a
> requirements document.

Is there a good reason this isn't open to everyone?

Adam


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Wed Jul  7 13:56:49 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: warning: "Inside XML DTDs"
Message-ID: <199907071158.HAA09247@hesketh.net>

Someone at McGraw-Hill apparently chopped off the title of my latest book.

It just says:

Inside XML DTDs

instead of:

Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical

The book is an exploration of XML in scientific and technical context, not
a 400-page discussion of DTD construction.  (Inside XML DTDs was supposed
to be a series title.)

Please, if you need an XML book that focuses exclusively on DTDs, or if you
need an XML book that covers things like e-commerce, messaging, or XML and
the Web, explore the rest of your options.  If you'd like a book on
scientific and technical applications of XML, this is the book for you.  If
not, it probably isn't.

Some days writing just isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Wed Jul  7 13:51:57 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Message-ID: <199907071153.HAA09150@hesketh.net>

I'm happy to announce that Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical, is
now available.

Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical provides a guide to XML with a sharp
focus on scientific and technical applications of this new technology. In
addition to XML itself, MathML, a core W3C standard that can be used in
many fields, receives extended coverage. The second half of Inside XML
DTDs: Scientific and Technical explores emerging XML standards and tools in
a number of fields, including biology, chemistry, astronomy, library
science, and meteorology. The conclusion explains what developers will need
to do in order to create their own applications of XML, and provides a
guide to integrating XML with current information architectures and practices.

Topics covered include:

     How XML Enhances Information Exchange 
     XML's Background 
     XML Document Structures 
     XML DTDs: Describing Document Content 
     XML DTDs: Describing Document Structures 
     Using XLink and XPointer to Connect Documents 
     Supporting Standards for XML 
     Mathematical Markup Language (MathML) 
     MathML Implementations 
     An Introduction to Resource Description Framework (RDF) and Dublin Core 
     The Virtual Hyperglossary (VHGTM) 
     Chemical Markup Language 
     Markup for Biology: BioML and BSML 
     Weather Observation Markup Format 
     Markup for Astronomy: AML 
     Markup for Instrument Control: AIML 
     Graphics Markup Languages 
     Building your Own Markup Language 
     Creating Networked Applications 
     Using Perl for XML Processing (with examples) 
     Using Java for XML Processing 
     Moving Beyond the Foundations 

For some reason, the cover just says "Inside XML DTDs", but Amazon has it
right. (Or close - they moved the colon.)  In any case, the ISBN is
0-07-134621-X, list price is $49.99, and it's becoming available at
electronic bookstores right now. It should hit the shelves of your local
bookstore soon.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Wed Jul  7 15:23:45 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XML is it happening the right way
In-Reply-To: <008701bec810$ad5037a0$334ffea9@litebook>
References: <001101bec805$521ee260$0500a8c0@platinum>
Message-ID: <199907071326.JAA11565@hesketh.net>

At 10:35 AM 7/7/99 +1000, Trevor Croll wrote:
>What seems to be happening is that the Forms people are re-doing XSL and
>Xpointer and Xlink and adding new stuff
>The Maths are re-doing it
>ie.. every specification is a rework of other specifications instead of an
>organised addition to the existing specification.
>
>Specs are being defined for applications not for function. I predict the Net
>result will be a confusion and conflicts between specifications if some
>general order is not restored.
>
>In other words - the XML thing is diversifying into lots of little deviants
>instead of accumulating into one grand specification.

and at 06:46 PM 7/6/99 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote:
>Hey Trevor:
>
>Chill out.  There's nothing to worry about.
>
>The great thing about XML is that "groups" doing one thing or another
>won't hurt the core language in any way; what might be the case if
>everything were coming out of one centralized location.

I think that in general, Lisa may be right - there's no need for the W3C to
coordinate every spec in development, and that lots of groups can wander
off in their own direction without it damaging the project.  OASIS is
getting started providing some overall glue, but apart from duplication of
effort, I don't think we need centralized coordination of all of this.

On the other hand, XML 1.0 itself isn't that much of a foundation to build
on.  As Trevor points out, if everyone builds their own XLink and XPointer,
or if the already numerous dialects of XSL continue to expand, in
production work, we're going to have some very large problems.  Basically,
the foundation isn't complete, however much many of us would like it to be
so.  XLink/XPointer is an especially good example as the drafts are now
over 16 months old, leaving a lot of people with no option but to go in
their own way.

Whether the way they go is the 'right' way is a big open question.

> In other words - the XML thing is diversifying into lots of little deviants
> instead of accumulating into one grand specification.

If you mean that developers are cooking up their own 'deviants' to fill in
the gaps while we all wait for the core to be completed, you're probably
right.  Sadly, there isn't much to be done except waiting for the wheels of
the W3C to turn, and encouraging people to conform to the standards that
already exist.  If this is the general 'XML will fragment the world'
argument (which it doesn't seem to be), then I'm not so worried.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com  Wed Jul  7 15:57:26 1999
From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability)
Message-ID: <199907071358.GAA13002@mailsun2.us.oracle.com>

Roger,  
 
Probably not the answer you were looking for, but here 
goes... 
 
If your data is already in a database, and you already 
know the SQL that gets you the info you need, why not 
combine these two pieces of info with a utility like 
the Oracle XML SQL Utility for Java and... 
 
 -> Query the data with full speed and power of your database 
 -> Query it from any point of view required for the app at hand 
 -> Return on-the-fly XML results from what you find 
 
Using something like an Object View you can predefine 
a rich structure to your data, query it using SQL3 object 
query syntax, and get the rich structure back in the XML 
for the results. You can see the "Insurance Claim" demo 
that comes with the Oracle XSQL Servlet for an example. 
 
I'm assuming there are a lot of Nokia cell-phone models 
out there... :-) 
 
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml 
 
Take care. 
     
_________________________________________________________ 
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist 
Business Components for Java Dev't Team 
http://www.oracle.com/xml
-------------- next part --------------
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Subject: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability)
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From srnm at yahoo.com  Wed Jul  7 22:15:17 1999
From: srnm at yahoo.com (Steven Marcus)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XML and COBOL
Message-ID: <19990707201751.2462.rocketmail@web129.yahoomail.com>

My apologies if I did not answer the original question. In my
post I was describing how an organization I work with will be
processsing XML on the mainframe. We came to the conclusion that
parsing XML from inside COBOL apps was impractical and
unnecessary. Others may differ.

To clarify our tactics:

All new XML-oriented apps will be written in Java. Interfaces to
existing apps are via files and/or access to database tables via
JDBC. The java apps will use SAX/DOM as appropriate. 

There has been some talk of using COBOL to _output_ data using
XML-syntax. No attempt has been made to interface an XML
processor directly to COBOL.

I write this with the hope that someone wrestling with these
issues will see that alternatives exist to using COBOL XML
parsers -- if you are running a recent release of OS/390.

good luck!
Steven Marcus
Aware Technologies, Inc.

--- Ken North  wrote:
> Steven Marcus wrote:
> 
> << If you are running a relatively recent release of OS/390
> (not
> MVS) you can use an XML parser written in Java. IBM's java
> parser is available at alphaworks.ibm.com and supports
> EBCDIC<->Unicode conversions.
> 
> You can integrate your COBOL and Java environments thru the
> file
> system bridge available with java-OS/390, or via DB/2. There
> may
> be other ways of passing data between Java apps and COBOL but
> someone else will have to speak up.
> 
> Steven,
> 
> The issue isn't being able to bridge data and files, but being
> able to
> process information in memory. The forthcoming DB2 XML
> Extender will
> include the capability of bridging XML files and mapping them
> to DB2
> columns. That's not the problem.
> 
> The problem is working with in-memory structures to process
> document
> objects or events. The extant XML parsers support the Document
> Object
> Model (DOM) and SAX (events). If you use a Java XML parser
> that targets
> DOM, for example, it produces an object structure Java
> understands, but
> not COBOL. You'd have to write a library that interfaces COBOL
> to Java
> objects using CALLs, not disk READs and WRITEs.
> 
> Not an easy proposition -- unless someone has implemented
> Object COBOL
> with bindings for IDL, Java, etc.
> 
> 
> ================== Ken North =============================
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ken_North
> ken_north@csi.com  71301.1306@compuserve.com  KenNorth@msn.com
> Ken North Computing   2604B El Camino Real, #351 Carlsbad, CA
> 92008-1214
> ===========================================================
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and
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> 



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From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz  Wed Jul  7 23:14:13 1999
From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML
References: 
Message-ID: <3783C3AB.965E59C@auckland.ac.nz>

Hi Matt

Thanks for your help with this problem. I've been playing around with
your code and it's pretty impressive (in its elegance, I mean). I haven't
had much of a chance to look at XML::Parser so far, but this really
blew me away.

Anyway, because of problems with empty elements (generating start and
end events) and whitespace handling, I may have to write a regexp-based
parser as you suggested.

As it happens, this wasn't anything close to legal HTML4. You're not
allowed to but  elements inside a 
       section anyway. So I'm
going to have to mess around with 
      's, 
      's and  's.

Sounds like fun.


Matt Sergeant wrote:
> 
> OK. Here's an attempt:
> 
> use XML::Parser;
> 
> print XML::Parser->new(Handlers => {
>         # Handlers using closures, except Start 'cos it's more complex.
>         # $_[0] is the expat object where we store the HTML output
>         Init => sub { $_[0]->{html} = '
      ' },
>         Final => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= 
      ; return($_[0]->{html}) },
>         Start => \&start,
>         End => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '</' . $_[1] .
> '>' },
>         Char => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= "$_[1]" },
>         CdataStart => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '' },
>         CdataEnd => sub { $_[0]->{html} .= '' },
>         }
> )->parsefile($ARGV[0]);
> 
> sub start {
>         my $expat = shift;
>         my $element = shift;
>         my %attribs = @_;
> 
>         $expat->{html} .= '<' . $element . '';
>         if (%attribs) {
>                 foreach (keys %attribs) {
>                         $expat->{html} .= ' ' . $_ .
>                                 '="' .
>                                 $attribs{$_}.
>                                 '"';
>                 }
>         }
>         $expat->{html} .= '>';
> }




-- 
Warren Hedley

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From benzo at po.cnet-sc.ne.jp  Thu Jul  8 03:30:14 1999
From: benzo at po.cnet-sc.ne.jp (Shohji Itoh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <001f01bec8e1$07eb23c0$1364e3d2@benzo2>

unsubscribe benzo@po.cnet-sc.ne.jp


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From Frank.Korf at memi.com  Thu Jul  8 08:08:35 1999
From: Frank.Korf at memi.com (Frank Korf)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <9879.990707@memi.com>

Hi!

I tried to use an entity-declaration as follows:

]]>">

Neither Internet Explorer nor XML Spy do accept this. It's hard to
understand what Internet Explorer really means with its error messages
in german language, but XML Spy is unhappy about the "%". I can't
see why this shoult not be allowed - but if not, how should I write
it? AFAIK, Entities must not be resolved within a CDATA-Section, so I
can't write it as an entity.

cu

Frank



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From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz  Thu Jul  8 11:22:32 1999
From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML
References:  <3783C3AB.965E59C@auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <37846E62.73C74672@auckland.ac.nz>

OK. This is probably the last message on this topic. I've hacked
together an HTML pretty printer in PERL, based on the code Matt
Sergeant sent to this thread a while ago, and made it available on
my website.

It doesn't even handle CDATA, entities or processing instructions,
but I don't really need these, and they shouldn't be very hard
to add (an exercise for the reader?).

If it's any use to anyone, you can grab the script and view an
example at

http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/Hedley/projects/xmlFormatter/index.html

Cheers

-- 
Warren Hedley
Department of Engineering Science
Auckland University
New Zealand

Tel   :(64 9) 373 7599 (x 5808)
Fax   :(64 9) 373 7468
Email : w.hedley@auckland.ac.nz
WWW   : http://purl.oclc.org/NET/whedley/
     or http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/People/Staff/Hedley/

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From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 11:26:32 1999
From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XML pretty printing in HTML
Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA23180C3DBE@FL-EXCHANGE-03>

Warren

>As it happens, this wasn't anything close
>to legal HTML4. You're not allowed to but
> elements inside a 
       section
>anyway.  So I'm  going to have to mess
>around with 
      's, 
      's and  's.

I don't know if it's strictly "legal", but both NN and IE v4.x allow a  setting within 
        
      .

What they ignore is  and .

Seems logical - almost  ;?)

Regards

Andy B.

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From falk at icon.at  Thu Jul  8 12:31:40 1999
From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: Entity-declarations and CDATA
Message-ID: 

Hi,

in a previous message on Wednesday, July 7th, Frank Korf
[mailto:Frank.Korf@memi.com] wrote:

> I tried to use an entity-declaration as follows:
> 
> ]]>">
> 
> Neither Internet Explorer nor XML Spy do accept this. It's hard to
> understand what Internet Explorer really means with its error messages
> in german language, but XML Spy is unhappy about the "%". I can't
> see why this shoult not be allowed - but if not, how should I write
> it? AFAIK, Entities must not be resolved within a CDATA-Section, so I
> can't write it as an entity.

The problem is hidden in the order of interpretation that is being defined
by the XML Specs:

1) inside the DECLARATION of your entity trtd the word CDATA is not being
interpreted as anything special (and therefore the % inside is really NOT
allowed as a single character, because it is reserved for starting a
PE-Reference)

2) whenever your are USING your entity trtd in your document later on, the
CDATA section will be interpreted as such and therefore the % would be
allowed there

So the question becomse: how do I really have to write the % into the entity
declaration? The solution is to rewrite it like this:

]]>">

This works, because the XML Specs clearly state, that character references
(such as % for the % sign) have to be resolved BEFORE the entity is
declared. And thus the entity ends up being declared exactly as you intended
to and later on is resolved correctly whenever you are using it in your
document.

I hope this helps, to clarify this rather tricky detail of the XML Specs -
and I also would like to add that both IE and XML Spy are doing the right
thing here ;)

Kind regards,

Alexander Falk

... Icon Informations-Systeme GmbH - makers of XML Spy -
http://www.xmlspy.com
... ALEXANDER FALK
... President, CEO
... http://www.icon.at/falk

-----Original Message-----
From: Frank Korf [mailto:Frank.Korf@memi.com]
Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 1999 11:07 PM

I tried to use an entity-declaration as follows:

]]>">

Neither Internet Explorer nor XML Spy do accept this. It's hard to
understand what Internet Explorer really means with its error messages
in german language, but XML Spy is unhappy about the "%". I can't
see why this shoult not be allowed - but if not, how should I write
it? AFAIK, Entities must not be resolved within a CDATA-Section, so I
can't write it as an entity.

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Thu Jul  8 13:42:46 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability)
Message-ID: <01BEC947.93719CB0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Steve Muench wrote:

> If your data is already in a database, and you already
> know the SQL that gets you the info you need, why not
> combine these two pieces of info with a utility like
> the Oracle XML SQL Utility for Java and...
>
>  -> Query the data with full speed and power of your database
>  -> Query it from any point of view required for the app at hand
>  -> Return on-the-fly XML results from what you find
>
> Using something like an Object View you can predefine
> a rich structure to your data, query it using SQL3 object
> query syntax, and get the rich structure back in the XML
> for the results. You can see the "Insurance Claim" demo
> that comes with the Oracle XSQL Servlet for an example.

I've looked at the examples, but unfortunately don't have an Oracle 
database available at the moment to execute them. The documentation states 
that the output of a SELECT statement is returned as XML nested three 
levels deep: rowset, row, and column. Do object views allow you to get 
deeper nesting?

For example, suppose I have the following tables:

   SalesOrders
      SONumber
      CustNumber

   Lines
      SONumber
      LineNumber
      PartNumber
      Quantity

Can I then define an object view over these tables such that I have 
SalesOrder objects, each of which has an array of Lines objects?  And 
supposing I can do this, does executing a SELECT statement in a document 
processed by the XSQL Servlet producing a flat or nested XML document? That 
is, do I get the following document:

   
      
         ...
         ...
         
            ...
            ...
            ...
         
         ...
         
            ...
            ...
            ...
         
      
   

or are there still only three levels of nesting, with SONumber and 
CustNumber repeated for each Line:

   
      
         ...
         ...
         ...
         ...
         ...
      
      ...
      
         ...
         ...
         ...
         ...
         ...
      
   

Thanks.

-- Ron Bourret


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From nico at echange.fr  Thu Jul  8 15:07:42 1999
From: nico at echange.fr (Nicolas MONNET)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:46 2004
Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
Message-ID: 


I want to use XSL from within a Perl program. So far I have only seen Java
based XSL engines, and maybe msxsl.dll, which is not of great use for me
since I'm not running Windows. 

Is there any other implementation (or beiginning thereof), available in
source form? (Free preferably).

--
Many are called, few are chosen.  Fewer still choose.


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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Thu Jul  8 15:23:12 1999
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability)
References: <01BEC947.93719CB0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>
Message-ID: <006201bec945$cb83a000$54561990@us.oracle.com>

Ron,

Here's how it works. You can indeed have lots more
rich structure than what a typicaly flat-relational
table with scalar column types produces.

The tree of tags for a flat relational table looks
like what you mention:


  
     1
     2
  


when the datatypes are simple scalar types, however there's
much more power when you begin creating your own user-defined
object types and using them directly (or virtually, through
object views) to materialize data that's more structured.

If I create user-defined types NAME and ADDRESS with:

  CREATE TYPE name AS OBJECT(
    first VARCHAR2(40),
    last  VARCHAR2(40)
  );
  CREATE TYPE address AS OBJECT(
    street VARCHAR2(40),
    city   VARCHAR2(40),
    zip    VARCHAR2(10),
  );

and define my table like:

  CREATE TABLE customer (
     custname name,
     home     address,
     work     address
  );

then a SELECT * FROM CUSTOMER will reflect that *extra* structure like:


  
     
       Steve
       Muench
     
     
       101 First St.
       Redwood Shores
       94065
     
     
       22 Northeast South St.
       Belmont
       94066
     
  


If you have a type defined like LINEITEM, then you can
create collection types like:

CREATE TYPE lineitem_collection AS TABLE OF lineitem; (unordered, unbounded)
or
CREATE TYPE lineitem_array AS VARRAY(10) OF lineitem; (ordered, bounded)

Then you can create a "purchase_order" TYPE with an attribute whose
datatype is "lineitem_collection" to get nested collections.

If you're using Object Views, then all of the data can actually
come from flat relational tables if that's where you have it now
or that's where you like to keep it.

So, in one of the demos I show frequently, I have a created a structured
type called CLAIM to model an insurance claim, and use an object view
to materialize data into the rich structure on the fly.

A query over my object view (SELECT VALUE(c) FROM insurance_claim_view c),
a syntax which asks to select the entire top-level CLAIM object in each row,
produces results like:


   
      
         77804
         1999-01-01 00:00:00.0
         
            8895
            
               1044
               Paul
               Astoria
               
                  123 Cherry Lane
                  SF
                  CA
                  94132
               
            
         
         
            
               1999-01-05 00:00:00.0
               7600
               JCOX
            
         
         
           Car ran into a ditch. On-site inspector
           determined that Faulty Brakes
           were the cause.
         
      
   
   
      
         12345
         1998-03-11 00:00:00.0
         
            8895
            
               1044
               Paul
               Astoria
               
                  123 Cherry Lane
                  SF
                  CA
                  94132
               
            
         
         
            
               1998-03-15 00:00:00.0
               1800
               MFOX
            
            
               1998-03-23 00:00:00.0
               7800
               ULOWE
            
         
         
            It appears the driver rammed his car into
            the embankment due to Excess of Speed.
         
      
   


Lastly, you have full queryability over the virtual object
structure in SQL using SQL3 extended path notation, so you
can select just the CUSTOMER substructure from the insurance
claim view like:

select c.claimpolicy.primaryinsured as Customer
  from insurance_claim_view c
 where c.claimpolicy.primaryinsured.homeaddress.state = 'CA'

The query performance is the same as if you did it against
the flat underlying tables with the yuckier syntax and
did the joins yourself.

Have fun...

----- Original Message -----
From: Ronald Bourret 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 4:41 AM
Subject: RE: XQL Challenge (also, Design for Queryability)


| Steve Muench wrote:
|
| > If your data is already in a database, and you already
| > know the SQL that gets you the info you need, why not
| > combine these two pieces of info with a utility like
| > the Oracle XML SQL Utility for Java and...
| >
| >  -> Query the data with full speed and power of your database
| >  -> Query it from any point of view required for the app at hand
| >  -> Return on-the-fly XML results from what you find
| >
| > Using something like an Object View you can predefine
| > a rich structure to your data, query it using SQL3 object
| > query syntax, and get the rich structure back in the XML
| > for the results. You can see the "Insurance Claim" demo
| > that comes with the Oracle XSQL Servlet for an example.
|
| I've looked at the examples, but unfortunately don't have an Oracle
| database available at the moment to execute them. The documentation states
| that the output of a SELECT statement is returned as XML nested three
| levels deep: rowset, row, and column. Do object views allow you to get
| deeper nesting?
|
| For example, suppose I have the following tables:
|
|    SalesOrders
|       SONumber
|       CustNumber
|
|    Lines
|       SONumber
|       LineNumber
|       PartNumber
|       Quantity
|
| Can I then define an object view over these tables such that I have
| SalesOrder objects, each of which has an array of Lines objects?  And
| supposing I can do this, does executing a SELECT statement in a document
| processed by the XSQL Servlet producing a flat or nested XML document?
That
| is, do I get the following document:
|
|    
|       
|          ...
|          ...
|          
|             ...
|             ...
|             ...
|          
|          ...
|          
|             ...
|             ...
|             ...
|          
|       
|    
|
| or are there still only three levels of nesting, with SONumber and
| CustNumber repeated for each Line:
|
|    
|       
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|       
|       ...
|       
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|          ...
|       
|    
|
| Thanks.
|
| -- Ron Bourret
|
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
| (un)subscribe xml-dev
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message;
| subscribe xml-dev-digest
| List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
|
|


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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 15:27:08 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nicolas MONNET [mailto:nico@echange.fr]
> 
> I want to use XSL from within a Perl program. So far I have 
> only seen Java
> based XSL engines, and maybe msxsl.dll, which is not of great 
> use for me
> since I'm not running Windows. 
> 
> Is there any other implementation (or beiginning thereof), 
> available in
> source form? (Free preferably).

No. I thought maybe of starting to convert xmerge to a more XSL-like syntax,
but I've not really got enough tuits ATM, and xmerge probably isn't a strong
enough basis. Also, XSL (the full spec) requires a tree builder (rather than
a stream) - and it almost has to be DOM (although you can work around that
limitation - e.g. use XML::Grove instead - but that looks like a lot of
work). Besides - noone wants to invest the time in a moving spec. It's fine
for MS or Lotus to spend hours and hours working on it - they are getting
return on their investment probably (for MS it's people downloading IE and
using Windows, I don't know how Lotus expects to make money on theirs), but
for GPL developers it's a lot of work for little return. Besides - Perl's
DOM implementation is sadly very slow (due to the design of the DOM not
really fitting "the perl way"), so in accordance with that so would an
XML::XSL.

For windows users I've controlled MSXML quite happily from Perl - I posted a
simple module to do XSL transformations using this to the Perl-XML list a
while back.

There are also other options, like xmlperl (not 100% free though - there are
licensing issues with commercial users), and xmerge (part of XML::miniXQL),
and I'm sure other possibilities.

Matt.

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From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov  Thu Jul  8 16:45:11 1999
From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE 5.0 or another parser
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990708104638.007d47f0@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov>

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From John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com  Thu Jul  8 17:12:37 1999
From: John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com (John Evdemon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <852567A8.0053A34D.00@freddiemac.com>



IE5's parser is designed for client-level parsing since it was imbedded in the
browser, correct?

This implies (at least to me) relatively high-risk -- the parser's performance
on a back end server is an unknown.

Has anyone seen/done any benchmarks?

Can it handle the volume?

Thanks!

John Evdemon
Lead Technical Consultant
Perspective Technology Corp.
http://www.perspect.com





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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jul  8 17:16:39 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: 
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990708081852.00989320@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

At 09:06 PM 7/7/99 +0000, Frank Korf wrote:
>I tried to use an entity-declaration as follows:
>
>]]>">

While it doesn't affect the XML well-formedness, it would also be
better practice to quote the 100%, i.e.:

 ]]>">

 -Tim

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 17:17:32 1999
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532CB5A5@SENMAIL3>

They also have it as a separate download for non-browser based parsing.
Don't know how powerful it is though.

Steven

Steven Livingstone
President, AIP Scotland.
ceo@citix.com
http://www.citix.com

Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	John Evdemon [SMTP:John_Evdemon@freddiemac.com]
> Sent:	08 July 1999 16:14
> To:	XML Developers
> Subject:	Re: IE5 Parser
> 
> 
> 
> IE5's parser is designed for client-level parsing since it was imbedded in
> the
> browser, correct?
> 
> This implies (at least to me) relatively high-risk -- the parser's
> performance
> on a back end server is an unknown.
> 
> Has anyone seen/done any benchmarks?
> 
> Can it handle the volume?
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> John Evdemon
> Lead Technical Consultant
> Perspective Technology Corp.
> http://www.perspect.com
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Jul  8 17:45:35 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFC7@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

> From: John Evdemon [mailto:John_Evdemon@freddiemac.com]
> IE5's parser is designed for client-level parsing since it 
> was imbedded in the
> browser, correct?
> 
> This implies (at least to me) relatively high-risk -- the 
> parser's performance
> on a back end server is an unknown.
> 
> Has anyone seen/done any benchmarks?
> 
> Can it handle the volume?
> 
> Thanks!

I'm not sure if the MSXML parser was designed with the client in mind or not
- I recall hearing somewhere that someone at Microsoft was annoyed that
MSXML was so closely tied to the browser, since it was meant for
the server.  (This recollection of mine is not necessarily accurate,
however, and even if it is it's only hearsay.)

But in the project I'm on now we use it on both client and server.  Most of
our inter-component communication is done via XML, and there's quite a bit,
so MSXML is doing a pretty good job there.  (Sorry, no numbers.)  There is
also a daily batch job that runs, where our server-side MSXML component is
processing a largish XML file (somewhere between 400 and 600K), and it's
having no troubles with that.

Not exactly concrete proof one way or the other, but for our needs MSXML is
doing well on the server, and I haven't seen any scaling problems yet.
Someone else might have better numbers for you, though.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mediaserv.com
MediaServ Information Architects
http://www.MediaServ.com

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Jul  8 17:47:05 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFC8@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
> They also have it as a separate download for non-browser 
> based parsing.
> Don't know how powerful it is though.
> 
> Steven

It's actually the same parser as the one that comes with the IE5 browser;
they've just licensed it and packaged it to be available for people with IE4
and above, instead of IE5 and above.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mediaserv.com
MediaServ Information Architects
http://www.MediaServ.com

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From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 17:59:50 1999
From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFC7@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <00fb01bec95b$13c13a70$c5010180@p197>

Hi,

My use of IE5 MSXML has shown it to be very fast and generally the best XML
parser available around if you're using IE on the client or server and want
to load the entire doc into mem etc.

The ActiveDOM parser (http://www.vivid-creations.com/dom/index.htm) from
Vivid is essentially a simpler version with the same interfaces, but it
doesn't need IE to be installed.  ( XSL + validation is coming later in the
year)

Cheers,

Rich.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter, David 
To: 'John Evdemon' ; XML Developers

Sent: 8 July 1999 16:46
Subject: RE: IE5 Parser


> > From: John Evdemon [mailto:John_Evdemon@freddiemac.com]
> > IE5's parser is designed for client-level parsing since it
> > was imbedded in the
> > browser, correct?
> >
> > This implies (at least to me) relatively high-risk -- the
> > parser's performance
> > on a back end server is an unknown.
> >
> > Has anyone seen/done any benchmarks?
> >
> > Can it handle the volume?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> I'm not sure if the MSXML parser was designed with the client in mind or
not
> - I recall hearing somewhere that someone at Microsoft was annoyed that
> MSXML was so closely tied to the browser, since it was meant for
> the server.  (This recollection of mine is not necessarily accurate,
> however, and even if it is it's only hearsay.)
>
> But in the project I'm on now we use it on both client and server.  Most
of
> our inter-component communication is done via XML, and there's quite a
bit,
> so MSXML is doing a pretty good job there.  (Sorry, no numbers.)  There is
> also a daily batch job that runs, where our server-side MSXML component is
> processing a largish XML file (somewhere between 400 and 600K), and it's
> having no troubles with that.
>
> Not exactly concrete proof one way or the other, but for our needs MSXML
is
> doing well on the server, and I haven't seen any scaling problems yet.
> Someone else might have better numbers for you, though.
>
> David Hunter
> david.hunter@mediaserv.com
> MediaServ Information Architects
> http://www.MediaServ.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jul  8 18:09:02 1999
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532F7CE9@SENMAIL3>

I know that they are the same parser, but the statement which you get before
the download implies to me that they are selling it not only as an add on
for IE 4 users, but server-side and non-browser XML developments.

Microsoft XML Parser Redistributable
The Microsoft XML Parser is implemented as a COM component, providing a
complete XML foundation for Windows DNA applications. Features include: 
*	A comprehensive, language-neutral programming model, including
support for ECMAScript, Java, Perl, Python, SQL, the Visual Basic?
development system, the Visual C++? development system, or Visual Basic
Scripting Edition (VBScript). 
*	Support for the W3C XML 1.0, XML DOM, and Namespaces
recommendations. 
*	Support for DTDs and validation. 
*	The industry's first support for XSL, querying, and a schema
technology preview. 
The Microsoft XML Parser has a high performance, multi-threaded architecture
that makes it ideally suited for both client and server-side XML and XSL
processing.


Cheers
Steven

Steven Livingstone
President, AIP Scotland.
ceo@citix.com
http://www.citix.com

Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Hunter, David [SMTP:dhunter@Mobility.com]
> Sent:	08 July 1999 16:48
> To:	'Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM'; XML Developers
> Subject:	RE: IE5 Parser
> 
> From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
> > They also have it as a separate download for non-browser 
> > based parsing.
> > Don't know how powerful it is though.
> > 
> > Steven
> 
> It's actually the same parser as the one that comes with the IE5 browser;
> they've just licensed it and packaged it to be available for people with
> IE4
> and above, instead of IE5 and above.
> 
> David Hunter
> david.hunter@mediaserv.com
> MediaServ Information Architects
> http://www.MediaServ.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
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> message;
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From hitesh.seth at intelligroup.com  Thu Jul  8 18:12:33 1999
From: hitesh.seth at intelligroup.com (Hitesh Seth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFC7@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: 

A Useful link on the topic, no performance benchmarks though.

http://www.informationweek.com/720/iutool2.htm
(Information Week Online,
 Title: Pros And Cons Of Microsoft's XML Object Model 
 )

Best Regards'

hitesh.

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Jul  8 18:15:14 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AFC9@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
> I know that they are the same parser, but the statement which 
> you get before
> the download implies to me that they are selling it not only 
> as an add on
> for IE 4 users, but server-side and non-browser XML developments.

Yes, the EULA makes it look like you don't need a Microsoft browser at all,
but it won't actually run without IE4.01 or above.  I'm not sure if it will
install or not; I don't think so, but could be wrong.  On the actual
download page it says "This installation upgrades the Microsoft XML parser
from Internet Explorer 4.01 SP1 or later to the parser provided with
Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.", which is a bit more clear that you need
IE4.

It's because the parser uses some of the same DLLs as the browser.  (For
example, there's the XMLHTTPRequest object, which uses IE DLLs to send files
to a web server.)

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From Eddie at acadsoft.com  Thu Jul  8 18:15:32 1999
From: Eddie at acadsoft.com (Eddie Shipman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: 

How would I use this Parser to send the data direectly from XML to an
ADO database?



-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Anderson [mailto:rja@arpsolutions.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 11:01 AM
To: Hunter, David; 'John Evdemon'; XML Developers
Subject: Re: IE5 Parser


Hi,

My use of IE5 MSXML has shown it to be very fast and generally the best
XML
parser available around if you're using IE on the client or server and
want
to load the entire doc into mem etc.

The ActiveDOM parser (http://www.vivid-creations.com/dom/index.htm) from
Vivid is essentially a simpler version with the same interfaces, but it
doesn't need IE to be installed.  ( XSL + validation is coming later in
the
year)

Cheers,

Rich.
----- Original Message -----
From: Hunter, David 
To: 'John Evdemon' ; XML Developers

Sent: 8 July 1999 16:46
Subject: RE: IE5 Parser


> > From: John Evdemon [mailto:John_Evdemon@freddiemac.com]
> > IE5's parser is designed for client-level parsing since it
> > was imbedded in the
> > browser, correct?
> >
> > This implies (at least to me) relatively high-risk -- the
> > parser's performance
> > on a back end server is an unknown.
> >
> > Has anyone seen/done any benchmarks?
> >
> > Can it handle the volume?
> >
> > Thanks!
>
> I'm not sure if the MSXML parser was designed with the client in mind
or
not
> - I recall hearing somewhere that someone at Microsoft was annoyed
that
> MSXML was so closely tied to the browser, since it was meant
for
> the server.  (This recollection of mine is not necessarily accurate,
> however, and even if it is it's only hearsay.)
>
> But in the project I'm on now we use it on both client and server.
Most
of
> our inter-component communication is done via XML, and there's quite a
bit,
> so MSXML is doing a pretty good job there.  (Sorry, no numbers.)
There is
> also a daily batch job that runs, where our server-side MSXML
component is
> processing a largish XML file (somewhere between 400 and 600K), and
it's
> having no troubles with that.
>
> Not exactly concrete proof one way or the other, but for our needs
MSXML
is
> doing well on the server, and I haven't seen any scaling problems yet.
> Someone else might have better numbers for you, though.
>
> David Hunter
> david.hunter@mediaserv.com
> MediaServ Information Architects
> http://www.MediaServ.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From clovett at microsoft.com  Fri Jul  9 00:53:30 1999
From: clovett at microsoft.com (Chris Lovett)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:47 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C0F3630B3@RED-MSG-56>

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From fischer17 at llnl.gov  Fri Jul  9 01:30:23 1999
From: fischer17 at llnl.gov (Aaron Fischer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Q:  pattern selection for outside the context node
Message-ID: <199907082332.QAA14214@poptop.llnl.gov>

Hey everyone.  I have a data-driven XSL transformation script.  In other
words, I have a whole bunch of templates, one for every kind of element in
each level of the XML tree, with each template calling
 on its children.

My problem is, within certain templates, I want to reference data in
certain elements located elsewhere in the XML tree.  However, when this
template is called upon, the context node is such that the element I want
to reference is NOT a descendant of the context node;  i.e. it's somewhere
else above, in the XML tree;  and at the moment it stands as inaccessible

Is there a pattern syntax for starting at the root or going above the
context node, up into the XML tree?  Every pattern selection I've tried is
always evaluated from the context node, which is the very thing I want to
bypass.  Is there a way to directly assign the value of the context node?

All help appreciated,

Aaron

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From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com  Fri Jul  9 03:25:26 1999
From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Q:  pattern selection for outside the context node
Message-ID: 

At 99/07/08 16:30 -0700, Aaron Fischer wrote:
>Hey everyone.  I have a data-driven XSL transformation script.  In other
>words, I have a whole bunch of templates, one for every kind of element in
>each level of the XML tree, with each template calling
> on its children.
>
>My problem is, within certain templates, I want to reference data in
>certain elements located elsewhere in the XML tree.  However, when this
>template is called upon, the context node is such that the element I want
>to reference is NOT a descendant of the context node;  i.e. it's somewhere
>else above, in the XML tree;  and at the moment it stands as inaccessible
>
>Is there a pattern syntax for starting at the root or going above the
>context node, up into the XML tree?  

What you've asked for in your simple question is the subject of an entire
tutorial topic ... so I'll only give an outline here.  Fortunately, the
XSLT 19990421 working draft has good examples.

You have your choice of traversing the source tree from where you are, or
from the root of the tree, or from an arbitrary node identified by the
node's unique identifier (assigned to element nodes by an attribute of type
ID), or from an arbitrary node based on key values you identify in the
content.

>Every pattern selection I've tried is
>always evaluated from the context node, which is the very thing I want to
>bypass.  Is there a way to directly assign the value of the context node?

I think that question is mis-worded, as one doesn't "assign" the value of
the context node.  The stylesheet asks the XSLT engine to process a given
context node list and the engine then processes each node of the context
node list in a particular order (typically document order, though some
requests are reverse document order).

Where you say:

   

You are actually saying:

   

Which can also be abbreviated by saying:

   

Each of which is giving the XSL engine a context node list of all children
and then asking the engine to apply the template for each member of the
context node list.  This is indicated by the "from-children" axis of the
select pattern.

According to 6.1.1 there are 12 axes you can choose from when building a
pattern:

[5] AxisIdentifier ::=  'from-ancestors'
                       | 'from-ancestors-or-self'
                       | 'from-attributes'
                       | 'from-children'
                       | 'from-descendants'
                       | 'from-descendants-or-self'
                       | 'from-following'
                       | 'from-following-siblings'
                       | 'from-parent'
                       | 'from-preceding'
                       | 'from-preceding-siblings'
                       | 'from-self'

And according to 6.1.4 there are abbreviations available to be used to
address 5 of the axes:

    .       refers to   from-self
    @name   refers to   from-attributes   (name of "*" means "all")
    name    refers to   from-children     (name of "*" means "all")
    ..      refers to   from-parent

    //      refers to   from-descendants
                   
When the pattern starts with "/", the orientation is from the root of the
tree.

The pattern can be comprised of a number of location steps, each step
delimited by "/".

The function id() described in 6.2.2 allows you to, in a location step,
refer to a node or nodes with unique identifiers.

The function key() is similar to id() in that it allows you to refer to a
node or nodes elsewhere in the document, but it does so without the
reference needing to be a node with a unique identifier.  There is a short
description of the power of the key() function in the free resources
section of our web site.

There are numerous examples in section 6 of the 19990421 working draft
XSLT, as well as in available tutorial material that has been cited in
earlier messages.

There is a lot for you to work with.  I hope this has helped.

......... Ken 

--
G. Ken Holman                    mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Crane Softwrights Ltd.             http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0   +1(613)489-0999   (Fax:-0995)
Website:  XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products.
Publications:   Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4
Next instructor-led training:   MS'99 1999-08-16  MT'99 1999-12-05/06


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From srothiv at msn.com  Fri Jul  9 04:33:44 1999
From: srothiv at msn.com (Scott Roth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Is there a DTD for Television Listings
Message-ID: <01BEC992.A2C0B8E0.srothiv@msn.com>

Question for all:

I am working on a project that requires the use of XML with Television 
listings. Is there a standard for this currently?  Is there a resource that 
lists current standards list for DTD's and their verticals?

Scott Roth
ImageVision.Net
"What is virtual reality?  Is it virtual?  Or is it reality?  Think about 
it; I know I do...."


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From james at xmltree.com  Fri Jul  9 09:48:47 1999
From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Is there a DTD for Television Listings
References: <01BEC992.A2C0B8E0.srothiv@msn.com>
Message-ID: <00bd01bec9df$a1f46130$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com>

Dear Scott

> I am working on a project that requires the use of XML with Television 
> listings. Is there a standard for this currently?  Is there a resource that 
> lists current standards list for DTD's and their verticals?


Some work done on presenting TV listings (though not a standard)
is at

http://www.casema.net/~jip/tv.html

This might give you some ideas.

Best regards,
James Carlyle

james@xmltree.com
www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web


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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Fri Jul  9 12:45:15 1999
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Catalog files?
Message-ID: <000801bec9f8$35e62460$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

Hi,

Can I use catalog files in XML as I would do in SGML to resolve 
the DOCTYPE identifier to a named file, rather than having 
to embed my filenames in the document?

I did check the archive but apart from a mention of XCatalog 
I didn't notice anything relevant. I'm not sure whether XCatalog 
is what I want (or am I missing something here?)

Apologies if its an obvious question/answer, and any tips appreciated. 

L.

==================================================================
    "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less"
				---William of Occam
==================================================================
Leigh Dodds                             Eml:  ldodds@ingenta.com
ingenta ltd                             Tel:  +44 1225 826619
BUCS Building, University of Bath       Fax:  +44 1225 826283
==================================================================


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From martind at netfolder.com  Fri Jul  9 13:07:13 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Catalog files?
In-Reply-To: <000801bec9f8$35e62460$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: 

Hi Leigh

It depends mainly of the parser you are using. I don't know which parser is
actually usin XCatalog, but SP is able to use catalogs for xml documents.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Leigh Dodds
Sent: Friday, July 09, 1999 6:46 AM
To: xml-dev
Subject: Catalog files?


Hi,

Can I use catalog files in XML as I would do in SGML to resolve
the DOCTYPE identifier to a named file, rather than having
to embed my filenames in the document?

I did check the archive but apart from a mention of XCatalog
I didn't notice anything relevant. I'm not sure whether XCatalog
is what I want (or am I missing something here?)

Apologies if its an obvious question/answer, and any tips appreciated.

L.

==================================================================
    "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less"
				---William of Occam
==================================================================
Leigh Dodds                             Eml:  ldodds@ingenta.com
ingenta ltd                             Tel:  +44 1225 826619
BUCS Building, University of Bath       Fax:  +44 1225 826283
==================================================================


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jul  9 14:50:12 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Enhydra and XML
Message-ID: <199907091252.IAA22157@hesketh.net>

One very interesting project that's been making waves lately is Enhydra, an
open-source (FreeBSD-style license) Java/XML application server from
Lutris.  I'm still looking it over, but it looks quite intriguing.  

They've just released version 2.1, which looks like a very reasonable
alternative to Java Server Pages (JSP).  The target output still seems to
be oriented toward HTML, but there is support for XML output as well.

More info at http://www.enhydra.org.

No, I'm not affiliated with them in any way.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Fri Jul  9 15:54:35 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Is there a DTD for Television Listings
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF6B@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> I am working on a project that requires the use of XML with 
> Television 
> listings. Is there a standard for this currently? 

The EPG (electronic programme guide) standard (see for example
http://www.etsi.org/BROADCAST/tv.htm#EPG ) may be of interest. It isn't
XML-based, but it presumably has an underlying data model which is relevant.

Mike Kay

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From tgraham at mulberrytech.com  Fri Jul  9 15:57:57 1999
From: tgraham at mulberrytech.com (Tony Graham)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Q:  pattern selection for outside the context node
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <14214.146.560000.41975@menteith.com>

At 8 Jul 1999 18:24 -0700, G. Ken Holman wrote:
 > According to 6.1.1 there are 12 axes you can choose from when building a
 > pattern:
 > 
 >  [5] AxisIdentifier ::=  'from-ancestors'
 >                        | 'from-ancestors-or-self'
 >                        | 'from-attributes'
 >                        | 'from-children'
 >                        | 'from-descendants'
 >                        | 'from-descendants-or-self'
 >                        | 'from-following'
 >                        | 'from-following-siblings'
 >                        | 'from-parent'
 >                        | 'from-preceding'
 >                        | 'from-preceding-siblings'
 >                        | 'from-self'

These are good for location paths, but not for patterns.  Section 6.3
states:

   A pattern must match the grammar for Pattern. A Pattern is set of
   location path patterns separated by |. A location path pattern is a
   location path none of the steps of which use either AxisIdentifiers
   or . or ... Location path patterns can also start with an id() or
   key() function call with a literal argument (see [6.2.2
   Node-sets]). Predicates in a pattern can use arbitrary expressions
   just like predicates in a location path.

 > And according to 6.1.4 there are abbreviations available to be used to
 > address 5 of the axes:
 > 
 >     .       refers to   from-self
 >     @name   refers to   from-attributes   (name of "*" means "all")
 >     name    refers to   from-children     (name of "*" means "all")
 >     ..      refers to   from-parent
 >     //      refers to   from-descendants

But you can't use "." or ".." in a pattern.

 > When the pattern starts with "/", the orientation is from the root of the
 > tree.
 > 
 > The pattern can be comprised of a number of location steps, each step
 > delimited by "/".
 > 
 > The function id() described in 6.2.2 allows you to, in a location step,
 > refer to a node or nodes with unique identifiers.

Provided you specify the ID as a literal string.

 > The function key() is similar to id() in that it allows you to refer to a
 > node or nodes elsewhere in the document, but it does so without the
 > reference needing to be a node with a unique identifier.  There is a short
 > description of the power of the key() function in the free resources
 > section of our web site.

Provided you use literal arguments.

Regards,


Tony Graham
======================================================================
Tony Graham                            mailto:tgraham@mulberrytech.com
Mulberry Technologies, Inc.                http://www.mulberrytech.com
17 West Jefferson Street                    Direct Phone: 301/315-9632
Suite 207                                          Phone: 301/315-9631
Rockville, MD  20850                                 Fax: 301/315-8285
----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in SGML and XML
======================================================================


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From Eddie at acadsoft.com  Fri Jul  9 16:16:54 1999
From: Eddie at acadsoft.com (Eddie Shipman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Help using XMLDOM
Message-ID: 

When using this code with the MSXML, I get the results below:
{
 This code is Delphi converted from VBScript source at
 http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/xmlguide/server-getting-data.asp
}

  oXMLDoc := CreateOleObject('Microsoft.XMLDOM');
  // Check to see if a document has data. If it does, don't build it
  if oXMLDoc.ChildNodes.Length = 0 then
  begin
    // Build the XML document
    oRoot := oXMLDoc.CreateNode('element', 'XML','');
    oXMLDoc.AppendChild(oRoot);
    // Queries the database for customer data
    RS.MoveFirst;
    while not RS.EOF do
    begin
      oNode := oXMLDoc.CreateNode('element','Root','');
      oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.AppendChild(oNode);
      for i := 0 to Pred(RS.Fields.Count) do
      begin
        if Length(Trim(VarToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value))) > 0 then
        begin
          oChild := oXMLDoc.CreateNode('element',RS.Fields[i].Name,'');
          iType := RS.Fields[i].Type_;
          case iType of
            adBSTR       : oChild.Text := RS.Fields[i].Value;
            adInteger    : oChild.Text := IntToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
            adNumeric    : oChild.Text := IntToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
            adSingle     : oChild.Text := IntToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
            adBoolean    : if RS.Fields[i].Value then oChild.Text :=
'True' else oChild.Text := 'False';
            adDBTimeStamp: oChild.Text := FormatDateTime('YYYY-MM-DD',
VarToDateTime(RS.Fields[i].Value));
            adChar       : oChild.Text := VarToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
            adVarChar    : oChild.Text := VarToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
            adLongVarChar: oChild.Text := VarToStr(RS.Fields[i].Value);
          end;
          oNode.AppendChild(oChild);
        end;
      end;
      RS.MoveNext;
    end;
  end;

This is what is returned by the code above:


  
    171
    
  



I'd like to get something more along the lines of what ADORecordSet.Save
produces when you select the adPersistXML PersistFormat. How would I
modify the code to produce result like this:



 
  
  
 
 
  
 


 



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From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com  Fri Jul  9 16:59:49 1999
From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Q:  pattern selection for outside the context node
Message-ID: 

At 99/07/09 10:00 -0400, Tony Graham wrote:
>At 8 Jul 1999 18:24 -0700, G. Ken Holman wrote:
> > According to 6.1.1 there are 12 axes you can choose from when building a
> > pattern:
...
>
>These are good for location paths, but not for patterns.  Section 6.3
>states:

My mistake.  The terminology "select pattern" disappeared in the April
working draft, replaced with "node set expression".

However, the context (no pun intended) for the original poster was how to
control the use of , not how to match in a template,
which is why I gave the monologue that I did.  I prefixed the enumeration
of axes by drawing on the poster's example of the implicit node set
expression for children.

>But you can't use "." or ".." in a pattern.

Again, you are correct that in the latest working draft the word "pattern"
is restricted to what used to be a "match pattern" and is no longer used as
"select pattern".  The above are allowed in a node set expression, which is
what was needed by the poster.

> > The function id() described in 6.2.2 allows you to, in a location step,
> > refer to a node or nodes with unique identifiers.
>
>Provided you specify the ID as a literal string.
...
> > The function key() is similar to id() in that it allows you to refer to a
> > node or nodes elsewhere in the document
...
>Provided you use literal arguments.

Again correct, in my rush I purposely neglected to include idref() and
keyref() to avoid having to go into detail, thinking that once the reader
navigated to id() and key() in the working draft that these couldn't be
missed.

Thank you for highlighting these points, Tony.

........... Ken 

--
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From smangat at Adobe.COM  Fri Jul  9 17:45:04 1999
From: smangat at Adobe.COM (Satwinder Mangat)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: XML serving Websites
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Hi,

Is there any XML website?  What kind of Stylesheet are they using?

Thanks
Satwinder Mangat



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From malliks at rocketmail.com  Fri Jul  9 17:55:37 1999
From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: Query on XT
Message-ID: <19990709155028.21151.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>

Hi,

I'm using XT to create a flat file from an XML
Document and XSLT stylesheet. Could anyone explain
the difference between the two implementations in a
XSLT stylesheet. Second implementation was writing to
flat file whereas the first was not. Both of them are
using internally a Java method which is not important
in the query.

First Implementation :





     
	   
		   

	   

	   
		   
           
   


Second Implementation :

  
  
     
	   
		   

	   

	   
		   
           
   

Thanks in advance. 

CU,

Malliks
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jul  9 18:29:07 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: OASIS individual memberships
Message-ID: <199907091630.MAA29762@hesketh.net>

I hope this posting is seen as appropriate to XML-Dev, which seems to have
the highest concentration of OASIS members (and potential members) around.
Given the rate at which standards are developed, discussed, and
occasionally whacked on this list, the opportunity to join a standards
organization and its implications seems an appropriate topic of discussion.
 (If it's not, just don't buy me a beer at the next conference, okay?)

OASIS (the Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information
Standards) has created a new category of membership, individual membership
($250/year).  The press release is at
http://www.oasis-open.org/html/membership_opens.html.

While I loudly applaud their move to open their ranks to a larger body of
members, which will hopefully bring them some new perspectives, I'm also
having a hard time deciding whether it's worth my spending $250.  I already
spend $91/year for my ACM membership, and mostly get a magazine, an email
alias, and what I call my 'union card' for that cash.  Deciding whether to
spend $250 entails a bit more than just liking the organization.

It's not clear to me what benefits I'd get from becoming an OASIS member.
I'll start with the list from the site:
(http://www.oasis-open.org/html/members.htm)

>Attendance at members-only events 

Which include?  It looks like there's a summer workshop August 11-13 in
Montreal, but is there any way to find out what that involves/provides?

>Participation in technical discussion groups and subcommittee working
groups. 

The only committees appear to be XML Conformance, Registry and Repository,
and DocBook.  While I've offered to work on two of these, paying $250 so I
can do additional work doesn't seem especially sensible.

>Participation in marketing discussion groups and subcommittee working
groups. 

I can't find any information about this in the public areas of the site.

>Basic developer repository services. 

Meaning... Web site hosting?  DTD hosting?  This could have many different
meanings.

>Ability to submit, review, and distribute OASIS white papers, case
studies, and other educational materials. 

Maybe this is useful, though I already 'submit' my articles to the public
via a reasonably well-traveled Web site.

>Vote on candidates for OASIS Board of Directors

Good.
 
>Access to all OASIS' technical committee output before it is made public. 

How much output is there really?  OASIS seems like a good idea, but it's
not clear how much it really _does_.

>Member discounts at exhibitions and conferences (where offered)

This would be nice, but (where offered) doesn't promise a whole lot.

The next few items seem to reiterate the committee possibilities already
mentioned, though they mention some additional committees:

>Involvement in the OASIS XML.org Registry and Repository technical committee
>Participation in the ongoing development of the OASIS XML Conformance
Suite to insure product interoperability. 
>Opportunity to influence the standard for XML-based interchange of tabular
data
by providing input for the OASIS XML Table Model Technical Resolutoion. 
>Promotion of the open exchange of graphics by taking part in the work of
CGM Open. 
>Influence on future directions of documentation markup by taking part in
the  maintenance of the DocBook DTD

I'm not trying to knock OASIS - I'd just like more information on what
exactly the benefits are.  I'd especially welcome a public response, as it
might provide some good public relations for an organization that seems to
be trying to build a large base of support.  If the benefits are
significant enough, I hope that many members of XML-Dev will take up this
new opportunity and join the organization.


Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From clovett at microsoft.com  Fri Jul  9 18:55:36 1999
From: clovett at microsoft.com (Chris Lovett)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:48 2004
Subject: IE5 Parser
Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C0F3630DD@RED-MSG-56>

A lot of work was done on the IE5 browser to make it a good server-side
solution so that it scales well with low contention in memory management
and locking, etc, etc.

I've seen numbers as high as 400 XSL transforms per second - which
includes loading the XML data and using a cached XSL stylesheet.

Exact numbers throughput obviously depend a lot on the type of XML data
and whether or not you are doing XSL transforms with or without script
code, etc, etc.

But one thing that has been confirmed is that MSXML scales very well with
the hardware that you give it.

Chris Lovett.


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From simpson at polaris.net  Fri Jul  9 19:09:04 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: XML serving Websites
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990709131333.007d6470@polaris.net>

At 08:42 AM 7/9/1999 -0700, Satwinder Mangat wrote:
>Is there any XML website?  What kind of Stylesheet are they using?

Check James Tauber's XMLSoftware site for one example; it's at:
	http://www.xmlsoftware.com
The site starts out as raw XML, transformed via XSLT stylesheet(s) into
HTML+CSS for display. Very cool. For information about how he put this
together, see his "XSL by Example" tutorial, at:
	http://www.xmlsoftware.com/articles/xsl-by-example.html

=============================================================
John E. Simpson          | It's no disgrace t'be poor, 
simpson@polaris.net      | but it might as well be.
                         |            -- "Kin" Hubbard

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From John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com  Fri Jul  9 19:29:54 1999
From: John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com (John Evdemon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: OASIS individual memberships
Message-ID: <852567A9.006029AA.00@freddiemac.com>




> Deciding whether to spend $250 entails a bit more than just liking the
organization.

I agree with Simon's post and was happy to see I'm not the only one questioning
the personal ROI.

$250 is a bit higher than expected for an individual membership.

I'm not sure if a comparison to ACM is valid.  I get more out of my ACM/IEEE
membership than seems possible from the current OASIS benefits.  (Not counting
the "union cards".)

Are there any subscribers to this list that have signed on for an OASIS
individual membership?



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul  9 19:35:51 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Will OASIS matter? (was OASIS individual memberships)
In-Reply-To: <199907091630.MAA29762@hesketh.net>
References: <199907091630.MAA29762@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <14214.12557.352294.718644@localhost.localdomain>

Simon St.Laurent writes:

 > It's not clear to me what benefits I'd get from becoming an OASIS
 > member.

It's hard to say what benefits might develop.  It is interesting to
note that the OASIS name has come up a couple of times in discussions
with my customers -- they're developing specs such as
industry-specific document types for interchange, and they are
thinking ahead to where the specs might live and be maintained after
the initial development and implementation, OASIS was the first place
they mentioned.

This doesn't mean that OASIS *is* going to become important, but it
does mean that there's a clear niche for it to move into if the OASIS
members are willing and able to take the plunge.  The W3C is *not*
about to endorse every industry-specific doctype, even if the vendors
do manage to submit them as Notes; but industries do want some kind of
vendor-independent endorsement, and OASIS could provide that if it
wanted to.

I don't know whether that potential justifies the cost of membership,
or if it will ever be realized, but it is certainly possible for OASIS 
to grow significantly in importance.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Fri Jul  9 19:56:19 1999
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Will OASIS matter? (was OASIS individual memberships)
Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF901@RED-MSG-08>

Adding to what David said, W3C management have made it clear that the W3C is
not going to generally be in the position of endorsing domain-specific DTDs
or schemas.  This means that DTDs and schemas are going to need other
development and cataloging services, e.g. Oasis and BizTalk.

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jul  9 20:15:26 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: OASIS individual memberships (was Will OASIS matter? )
In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF901@RED-MSG-08>
Message-ID: <199907091817.OAA01052@hesketh.net>

At 10:56 AM 7/9/99 -0700, Andrew Layman wrote:
>Adding to what David said, W3C management have made it clear that the W3C is
>not going to generally be in the position of endorsing domain-specific DTDs
>or schemas.  This means that DTDs and schemas are going to need other
>development and cataloging services, e.g. Oasis and BizTalk.

Which is great and important and all, but doesn't really make me excited
about spending $250 to join the organization.  (It should speak more toward
large companies spending $100,000 to support xml.org.)

I guess my concern in general comes down to a basic problem: will spending
$250 on an individual OASIS membership actually get me $250 worth of
benefit?  

I doubt my $250 would push my schemas ahead of anyone else's in the
repository, and while I'd be interested in contributing to the structure of
that repository, I'm not sure that paying for the privilege in order to
donate my time presents any sort of ROI, as opposed to $250 spent on rent.

I'm (very) glad that OASIS is willing to accept individual members on some
level, but I still don't see why it makes sense for those members.  If it
would help me market my books or consulting in some way, it might be
useful, but I don't see anything like that in the material presented on the
site.

David Megginson wrote:
>It's hard to say what benefits might develop.

With a crowd of already-paid up organizational members in there, it's hard
to justify a speculative investment with no likely gain besides a tiny bit
of seniority over people who come to the party even later.

I'm really hoping there are real benefits here someplace...

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk  Fri Jul  9 21:01:05 1999
From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Will OASIS matter? (was OASIS individual memberships)
In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF901@RED-MSG-08>
Message-ID: 



On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Andrew Layman wrote:

> Adding to what David said, W3C management have made it clear that the W3C is
> not going to generally be in the position of endorsing domain-specific DTDs
> or schemas.  This means that DTDs and schemas are going to need other
> development and cataloging services, e.g. Oasis and BizTalk.

There's a big distinction there between development and cataloguing;
simply being able to _find_ pertinent DTDs and schemata doesn't strike
me as a great value added service. Development, on the other hand....


We already have an industry focussed around discovery and cataloguing:
web search engines, portals, directories. We're already seeing
things such as specialised MP3 search options as natural extensions of
these; since XML schemas are just more Web data, it seems to me likely
that a few such services will start offering schema-oriented searches.

Trust is of course a big issue -- but if professional societies and
industry bodies could circulate (by email, NNTP, CD-ROM) digitally signed
schemata and inter-schema crosswalks, these would fit very well into the
search-engine oriented approach to discovery. Oasis, BizTalk might take
on this role, but I'd imagine the existing engines would be well set up
to compete.

Development, discussion, data modelling and consensus building,
(particularly regarding vocabulary overlap), seems of far more
importance. And this latter is a very human, social service which
might(?I've no idea) turn out to need input from more stakeholders than
are inclined to pay to join.  It's this "community centre" aspect, and
prospect of such communities pragmatically blessing certain schemas,
which seems a plausible role for OASIS, BizTalk etc. Any techno-centric
database, search, cataloguing role seems to be in direct competion with
the major search services.
 
I can't see any technical reason why solutions for discovery
and trust w.r.t. normal XML (and HTML and MP3...) documents won't also
serve equally well for discovery and trust management of XML schemata,
mappings, crosswalks, business rules etc etc. After all, wasn't this
synergy the whole point of moving to an XML syntax for next-generation
DTDs? (ie. to allow the special case to borrow technology from the
general one). 

IMHO,

Dan




--
Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk                  
Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/
University of Bristol,  Bristol BS8 1TN, UK.   phone:+44(0)117-9287096


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From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk  Fri Jul  9 21:47:51 1999
From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Will OASIS matter? (was OASIS individual memberships)
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 


Just a quick followup to qualify my post, as an offlist response
suggests that I might be interpreted as questioning the need for OASIS
or similar efforts.  I certainly didn't intend that, and have every
expectation that both  OASIS and BizTalk can make themselves
indespensible in a 'community centre', 'consensus building' and 'schema
blessing' role. I'm just wary of the DTD-discovery and DTD-repository
expectations people seem to have of such organisations being redundant
since the search engines will likely address many of these needs. --dan
 

On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Dan Brickley wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 9 Jul 1999, Andrew Layman wrote:
> 
> > Adding to what David said, W3C management have made it clear that the W3C is
> > not going to generally be in the position of endorsing domain-specific DTDs
> > or schemas.  This means that DTDs and schemas are going to need other
> > development and cataloging services, e.g. Oasis and BizTalk.
> 
> There's a big distinction there between development and cataloguing;
> simply being able to _find_ pertinent DTDs and schemata doesn't strike
> me as a great value added service. Development, on the other hand....
> 
> 
> We already have an industry focussed around discovery and cataloguing:
> web search engines, portals, directories. We're already seeing
> things such as specialised MP3 search options as natural extensions of
> these; since XML schemas are just more Web data, it seems to me likely
> that a few such services will start offering schema-oriented searches.
> 
> Trust is of course a big issue -- but if professional societies and
> industry bodies could circulate (by email, NNTP, CD-ROM) digitally signed
> schemata and inter-schema crosswalks, these would fit very well into the
> search-engine oriented approach to discovery. Oasis, BizTalk might take
> on this role, but I'd imagine the existing engines would be well set up
> to compete.
> 
> Development, discussion, data modelling and consensus building,
> (particularly regarding vocabulary overlap), seems of far more
> importance. And this latter is a very human, social service which
> might(?I've no idea) turn out to need input from more stakeholders than
> are inclined to pay to join.  It's this "community centre" aspect, and
> prospect of such communities pragmatically blessing certain schemas,
> which seems a plausible role for OASIS, BizTalk etc. Any techno-centric
> database, search, cataloguing role seems to be in direct competion with
> the major search services.
>  
> I can't see any technical reason why solutions for discovery
> and trust w.r.t. normal XML (and HTML and MP3...) documents won't also
> serve equally well for discovery and trust management of XML schemata,
> mappings, crosswalks, business rules etc etc. After all, wasn't this
> synergy the whole point of moving to an XML syntax for next-generation
> DTDs? (ie. to allow the special case to borrow technology from the
> general one). 
> 
> IMHO,
> 
> Dan
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk                  
> Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/
> University of Bristol,  Bristol BS8 1TN, UK.   phone:+44(0)117-9287096
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 
> 


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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Sat Jul 10 00:48:24 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Article: OASIS Opens To Individuals, XML Groups
Message-ID: <199907092250.PAA03735@boethius.eng.sun.com>

Here's the official announcement of what I've mentioned informally:

   "OASIS Opens To Individuals, XML Groups"
   Computer Reseller News, by Amber Howle
   July 8, 1999
   http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990708S0018

Forgive me if notice of this has already appeared; I get the digest
edition of xml-dev, and that only comes out a couple of times a week.

Jon


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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Sat Jul 10 03:06:05 1999
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: XML-Data Reduced Subset Paper
Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF90E@RED-MSG-08>

I've received rather a few mails asking for information on the schema
support in Microsoft IE5 MSXML Parser.  People writing to me have often
pointed out the confusion surrounding the terms "schema" and especially
"XML-Data" -- and they are right.  They are right also when they note that
the information on http://msdn.microsoft.com 
/xml is incomplete. So I've written a fairly lengthy guide to what IE5 has
in the way of schema support, and the BizTalk folks have posted it on their
site, at http://biztalk.org/btSchemasGuide.asp
  .  Unfortunately, they also mangled
the formatting somewhat, so I will ask them if they can repair that.  But
the content is decent.
 
This work on schemas antedated the current W3C activity for schema design.
There is a page, also at the BizTalk site, containing links to the current
W3C schema activity documents: http://biztalk.org/btSchemasGuidelines.asp
  .
 
Best wishes, 
 
Andrew Layman

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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Sat Jul 10 04:45:19 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Article: OASIS Opens To Individuals, XML Groups
In-Reply-To: <199907092250.PAA03735@boethius.eng.sun.com> (message from Jon Bosak on Fri, 9 Jul 1999 15:50:44 -0700 (PDT))
Message-ID: <199907100247.TAA04001@boethius.eng.sun.com>

I said:

| Here's the official announcement of what I've mentioned informally:
| 
|    "OASIS Opens To Individuals, XML Groups"
|    Computer Reseller News, by Amber Howle
|    July 8, 1999
|    http://www.techweb.com/wire/story/TWB19990708S0018

What I meant to say was "here's a story about the official
announcement of what I've mentioned informally".  The announcement
itself is at

   http://www.oasis-open.org/html/membership_opens.html

Sorry if this caused any confusion.

Jon


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From paulo at samsara.com  Sat Jul 10 09:30:25 1999
From: paulo at samsara.com (Paul O'Rorke)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: XML serving Websites
References: <3.0.32.19990709131333.007d6470@polaris.net>
Message-ID: <3786F834.770BFF45@samsara.com>

We are using XML+XSL for a new virtual store at Sparks.com in S.F., CA, USA.  We use it with a
version of an open source publishing framework called Cocoon from Java Apache org.  We have it
running with a system based on EJBs, servlets, and BEA Weblogic.  It runs pretty well, but Cocoon is
a very general framework undergoing rapid change, and we're considering alternative, simpler designs
that might provide us with higher performance for our relatively specialized application.

The main advantage of Cocoon, XML, and XSL for us is that it enabled us to separate the business
logic and Java engineering from most of the artistic, graphical, layout and presentation issues
focused on by production personnel.  The servlets and EJBs are business focused and generate XML,
while the stylesheets tell Cocoon and XSL:P how to render the XML as HTML pages on the server.

One of the interesting things we discovered along the way is that nearly all of our pages are
dynamic, so Cocoon's early schemes for caching fully rendered pages did not help us much as we hoped
they might.  We got much more improvement in performance by simply caching stylesheets parsed as DOM
documents, since they generally contain most of the content of the final pages, especially HTML.
---Paul O
-- 
Paul O'Rorke, Ph.D.
C: (408) 202-7429
H: (408) 366-2848
W: (415) 642-6799 x122 (Sparks.com)

"John E. Simpson" wrote:
> 
> At 08:42 AM 7/9/1999 -0700, Satwinder Mangat wrote:
> >Is there any XML website?  What kind of Stylesheet are they using?
> 
> Check James Tauber's XMLSoftware site for one example; it's at:
>         http://www.xmlsoftware.com
> The site starts out as raw XML, transformed via XSLT stylesheet(s) into
> HTML+CSS for display. Very cool. For information about how he put this
> together, see his "XSL by Example" tutorial, at:
>         http://www.xmlsoftware.com/articles/xsl-by-example.html
> 
> =============================================================
> John E. Simpson          | It's no disgrace t'be poor,
> simpson@polaris.net      | but it might as well be.
>                          |            -- "Kin" Hubbard
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From dave at userland.com  Sat Jul 10 16:17:16 1999
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:49 2004
Subject: Distributed Computing at WWW9
Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990710071258.0265f500@mail.userland.com>

I was named Co-Chair for the Developer's Day "Distributed Computing on the 
Web" track at WWW9 in Amsterdam next May. My fellow chair is Annrai O'Toole 
of Iona, an expert on CORBA. I guess XML-RPC is being acknowledged. Thanks!

http://www9.org/w9-call-developer.html

We're in the Call for Participation stage, which means that if you have 
work related to Distributed Computing on the Web that you would like to 
present to developers at WWW9, now is the time to start thinking and get 
ready to answer the call soon. I'm a newbie at chairing for a technical 
conference, but I'm looking forward to the experience, and creating an 
informative and productive experience for the people attending and speaking 
at WWW9 on this subject.

Another announcement, we've started a web-based discussion group at 
XML-RPC.COM. This request came from a few people, the rollover rate at 
discuss.userland.com is high enough that the XML-RPC messages were getting 
lost. Now we'll have a place to present new ideas that's just for XML-RPC. 
We plan to post some specs for a couple of protocols in the next few weeks, 
one to enable a "network computing" model for desktop text editing tools 
(ie WPs, outliners, spreadsheets, etc.) and another for a distributed user 
preferences system. It makes sense that XML-RPC become its own interactive 
venue, so now we've made that possible:

http://www.xmlrpc.com/discuss/

Still diggin!

Dave
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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Sat Jul 10 18:47:14 1999
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: New versions of XPath, XSL and XPointer available for public review
Message-ID: <19990710124939.D4467@w3.org>

  Since nobody posted about it yet, I suggest the people interested in
those topics have a look at:

   http://www.w3.org/TR/

where the 3 new drafts are linked from (July 9).

XPath is a language for addressing parts of an XML document, designed
to be used by both XSLT and XPointer.

The "Status of this document" part of each draft indicate public
archived mailing-lists to be used for specific comments on the draft.
Thanks in advance for providing feedback, especially on open issues
that the Working Groups may have listed in the drafts.

The last verion of the XML Fragment Interchange working draft was also
released 10 days ago, we are looking for implementation feedback.

Daniel

W3C Staff contact for the XML Linking WG

-- 
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes  | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind,
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe.

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From jboye at proxicom.com  Sat Jul 10 18:50:57 1999
From: jboye at proxicom.com (Boye, Janus)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: TeX -> MathML translation
Message-ID: 

Hi,
?
Here's a little question about MathML:
?
I know that there already exists LaTeX to MathML translators, but does
anybody have any pointers to TeX -> MathML translators? And also, how strong
are the ties between TeX and MathML?
?
Thanks in advance for your help!
?
Mit freundlichen Gr??en

Janus Boye


Proxicom GmbH
Leopoldstra?e 252 A
D-80807 M?nchen
Phone: +49 (89) 149 07 253
Fax:?? +49 (89) 149 07 111
http://www.proxicom.com   -- jboye@proxicom.com
  
?
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 10 23:49:57 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: OpenJade News - July 8 1999
Message-ID: 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

OPENJADE NEWS - July 8 1999

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                             
Home page at: http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL

DSSSL ISO/IEC 101179:1996,  an ISO standard since 1996 and used in
everyday applications


---------------------------------------------------------------------------

What's new in the DSSSL world?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did you know that DSSSL is used by members of the JIS (Japanese
Industrial Standard). Yushi Komachi from the MH Research Committee,
INSTAC/JSA, Japan, created a DSSSL script for JIS documents. The DSSSL
application is well documented and a sample document encoded in
shift-JIS are included in the DSSSL application documentation so that
the DSSSL script could be tested with this sample document following the
JIS specifications.
Abstract from the DSSSL script documentation:
Most Japanese Industrial Standards are today available in electronic
form on CD-ROM published by JSA (Japanese Standards Association) with
support of MITI (Ministry of International Trade and Industry). Those
JIS documents are described in SGML using such a DTD as specified by
JIS/TR X 0004, which is a Japanese version of ISO/IEC TR 9573-11.
Responding to user requirements for interchanging JIS documents with
their formatting information, we introduced the DSSSL into our prototype
system for electronic JIS publishing. This paper shows the overview of
the developed system and DSSSL specification of JIS formatting.

You can find the JIS DSSSL application at:
http://www.y-adagio.com/public/confs/itsig_tsg/dsl_apl.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

DSSSL in action
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever heard of jetinfo? its a russian on-line corporate magazine. What is
particular about this magazine is that it is using DSSSL to create HTML
pages from DocBook documents.

As Alexander Taranov told us:
" It is a web version of our corporate magazine.
1) All articles are in docbook
2) all bells and whistles are organized in templates (in SGML)
   these templates are used in 2 ways:
   - they are used for article pages generation with
   hacked (a little)  version 1.14 of Norm's style sheet
   and sgml-parsed templates
   - they are used for on the fly cgi-based generation of
     pages (we use SX + expat for this purpose)
3) all auxiliary files, used as helpers for search engine
   (in fact some catalogs) are generated with home-made
   dsssl style-sheet.

   all CGI are written in mzscheme."

Want to see by yourself a site with DSSSL generated web pages? take a
look at:
http://www.jetinfo.com (its in russian, bu you'll get the idea of what
DSSSL is capable of)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Articles about DSSSL
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ever heard about markup rules? if you want to learn more about them,
read a new article written by Didier PH Martin about markup rules. As
you know (do you know?), the DSSSL language is event driven or seen from
a different perspective it is a pattern matching language.
To process a SGML or XML document with a DSSSL script, the document is
first parsed and transformed into a grove (i.e. a tree), then the
process begin - each time an element is found in the text, its
corresponding markup rule is fired. Hummm, more or less like this.... To
know more, you can read the article at:

http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL/MarkupRule.htm

------------------------------------------------------------------------

OpenJade development  - version 1.3
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthias Clasen posted several patches and updated the OpenJade source
repository NEWS file. Here are the modifications included in the new
version:

Changes in OpenJade 1.3

* Jade ignores duplicate keywords in make expressions, as
  mandated by DSSSL.

* External procedure with public identifier

  "UNREGISTERED::OpenJade//Procedure::language"

  to create a language object by reference to a POSIX locale.

* Language-dependent procedures of the expression language:
  language?, current-language, declare-default-language,
  with-language, define-language, char?, char<=?,
  char>=?, char-ci=?, char-ci?, char-ci<=?,
  char-ci>=?, char-upcase, char-downcase, string-ci=?,
  string-equiv?, string?, string<=?, string>=?,
  string-ci?, string-ci<=?, string-ci>=?.

* The style-sheet.dtd derived from the dsssl architecture
  has been extended (in a backwards compatible way) to
  include the delaration element type forms supported by
  Jade. The public identifier for the dtd is

  "-//OpenJade//DTD DSSSL Style Sheet//EN"

* char-repertoire, add-name-chars and add-separator-chars
  declaration element type forms are supported. When given
  the -s cmdline flag, Jade doesn't use its builtin
  character repertoire.

* Most of the derived procedures in the query language:
  current-root, node-list-reduce, node-list-contains?,
  node-list-remove-duplicates, node-list-union,
  node-list-intersection, node-list-difference,
  node-list-symmetric-difference, node-list-union-map,
  node-list-some?, node-list-every?, node-list-filter,
  node-list->list, node-list-tail, node-list-head,
  node-list-sublist, node-list-count, node-list-last,
  node-list-property, origin, origin-to-subnode-rel,
  tree-root, grove-root, source, subtree, subgrove,
  ancestors, grove-root-path, rsiblings, ipreced,
  ifollow, grove-before?, sort-in-tree-order, tree-before?,
  tree-before, property-lookup, select-by-property,
  select-by-null-property, select-by-missing-property,
  attribute, referent, q-element, q-class, q-sdata.

Changes in OpenJade 1.2.2

* The TeX backend has support for PDF bookmarks. This is
  supported by the new version of jadetex which is included.

* Predefined character names line-feed and carriage-return
  for the character numbers 10 and 13.

* standard-chars and map-sdata-entity declaration element
  type forms are supported.

* Style language additions: map-constructor.

* + and - return a length-spec if any of there arguments
  is a length-spec.

* Most of the non-core expression language:
  c...r,  keyword->string, string->keyword, exact?, inexact?,
  zero?, positive?, negative?, odd?, even?, exp, log, sin, cos,
  tan, asin, acos, atan, expt, exact->inexact, inexact->exact,
  quantity->number, string->list, list->string, map, time?, time<=?, time>=?.

If you want to know more about OpeJade or DSSSL, go to:
http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL/

Regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
OpenJade News editor.








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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Mon Jul 12 04:40:43 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: XML serving Websites
References: <3.0.32.19990709131333.007d6470@polaris.net>
Message-ID: <00dd01becc10$5de84a00$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

> At 08:42 AM 7/9/1999 -0700, Satwinder Mangat wrote:
> >Is there any XML website?  What kind of Stylesheet are they using?
>
> Check James Tauber's XMLSoftware site for one example; it's at:
> http://www.xmlsoftware.com
> The site starts out as raw XML, transformed via XSLT stylesheet(s) into
> HTML+CSS for display. Very cool. For information about how he put this
> together, see his "XSL by Example" tutorial, at:
> http://www.xmlsoftware.com/articles/xsl-by-example.html

Actually, I've just rewritten the stylesheets to use the April XSLT draft
(and will probably rewrite them again for the new July draft). Then I will
make the full stylesheet available. I'll announce it here when I do.

James
--
James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com
Maintainer of : www.xmlinfo.com,  www.xmlsoftware.com and www.schema.net



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From nicmila at vscht.cz  Mon Jul 12 07:09:27 1999
From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: XML based site, DTD from XML available
Message-ID: <378978DC.9EF1BFF4@vscht.cz>

A couple of months ago we started an open source project called Zvon
which tries to support free information exchange. 
You will find details on the page
http://zvon.vscht.cz/ZvonHTML/Zvon/zvonHomepage_en.html .

XML, DTD, XSL and Perl scripts are available for download for every
page. 
Different DTD's are produced from single XML template. The individual
DTDs are generated with XSL transform.
You can download entire site including XML sources and XSL and Perl
scripts

There is a few other features which demonstrate that relatively complex
WEB authoring and administration can be done with a few free general use
programs and a bit of average programming.

BTW. There was some heated debate about usefulness of XSL. It takes some
time to get used to it, but then XSL(T) is just magnificent for work
with
XML text. You source is written in XML, you are writing program in XML
and yours output is XML, I do find it mentally very convenient. 


-- 
***************************************************************
Dr. Miloslav Nic                        e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz
Department of Organic Chemistry         TEL: +420 2 2435 5012  
ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha)                     +420 2 2435 4118
    				        FAX: +420 2 2435 4288  
****************************************************************

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From malliks at rocketmail.com  Mon Jul 12 18:47:51 1999
From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Improving XSLT code
Message-ID: <19990712163214.16516.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com>


Hi,

I'm creating XSLT files and combining them with the
XML Documents to produce flat files using XT engine.
There are elements with the same attributes. So when
I'm writing the stylesheet, I have to repeat the code
for the two elements. The sample XML DTD and XSLT
stylesheet is as follows.

  
  

     
	
	   
		   
           

	   
		   
	   

	   
		   

	   

	   
		   
	   

   

Do I have to repeat the code for METROS element also
or is there a way to simplify the code in XSLT.
Thanks in advance.

CU,

Malliks






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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Mon Jul 12 19:18:54 1999
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Will OASIS matter? (was OASIS individual memberships)
Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF916@RED-MSG-08>

I checked with the BizTalk people regarding membership cost.  Evidently, it
is free and always will be.

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From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Jul 12 22:30:39 1999
From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Question on inputing form fields into an XML Document
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990712163241.007cda10@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov>

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From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com  Mon Jul 12 22:37:47 1999
From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Improving XSLT code
In-Reply-To: <19990712163214.16516.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com>
Message-ID: 

Hi Malliks,

You may find it more helpful to post this kind of question to:

  http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list

where there are a number of people to help.  I happen to have some time in
a lunch break to post an answer here.

At 99/07/12 09:32 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote:
>There are elements with the same attributes. So when
>I'm writing the stylesheet, I have to repeat the code
>for the two elements. 
...

...
>So in the stylesheet, I'll have to repeat the code
>for both CITY and METROS, like

Fortunately, you are using the same attribute name for both element types,
so you are really close ... just put what you have into a named template
and call the template each time you process each element type.

>    
>  

There is no need to use a parameterized variable here ... a regular
variable is fine since you don't need to pass a parameter.  BTW, your
attribute name is "CITY_VALUE" not "CITY".

I've attached a sample below (simplified without the use of an external
function).

I hope this helps.

............... Ken


T:\malliks>type test.xml



  
  


T:\malliks>type test.xsl




  



  



    
  

     
	
	   
		   C
       

	   
		   S
	   

	   
		   N
	   

	   
		   D
	   

   



T:\malliks>call xsl test.xml test.xsl test.txt
T:\malliks>type test.txt

  S
  N

T:\malliks>


--
G. Ken Holman                    mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com
Crane Softwrights Ltd.             http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0   +1(613)489-0999   (Fax:-0995)
Website:  XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products.
Publications:   Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4
Next instructor-led training:   MS'99 1999-08-16  MT'99 1999-12-05/06


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From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov  Mon Jul 12 22:38:30 1999
From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: What about XML Pro??
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990712164057.007ceda0@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov>

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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Tue Jul 13 09:53:34 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Question on inputing form fields into an XML Document
Message-ID: 

-----Original Message-----
From: Dante M. Lee [mailto:dtmlee@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov]

Question on inputing form fields into an XML Document 


Does anyone know how to input a form into an XML document? 
I tried putting the input type tags within my customized tags, 
but I think the browser is viewing the input tags as if they 
were my own customized tags. Here is an example of what I did: 

[snip]


You might be interested in my CGI::XMLForm which is a perl module that takes
properly named form elements and generates XML from them. I'm not sure if it
does exactly what you need (you weren't particularly clear), but it sounds
about right. Get it from CPAN
(http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/id/M/MS/MSERGEANT/)

Matt.


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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Tue Jul 13 10:54:56 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: Question on inputing form fields into an XML Document
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF85@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

Sorry to be blunt, but I think you have totally misunderstood the role of
XML in relation to the browser. Nothing you put in your XML document means
anything to the browser unless you provide some kind of stylesheet or
rendering code to convert it into things (like form fields) that the browser
does understand.

Does anyone know how to input a form into an XML document? 

I tried putting the input type tags within my customized tags, 

but I think the browser is viewing the input tags as if they 

were my own customized tags


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From Thierry.Kormann at sophia.inria.fr  Tue Jul 13 11:29:10 1999
From: Thierry.Kormann at sophia.inria.fr (Thierry Kormann)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:50 2004
Subject: XML for JavaBeans
Message-ID: <199907130931.LAA01165@quokka.inria.fr>

Hi,

The Koala team has developed a new package called KBML (stands for Koala
Bean Markup Language) that enables the serialization/deserialization of
JavaBeans to/from an XML document.

- No marshaling/unmarshaling methods are required.
- Any JavaBeans can be serialized and deserialized

For futher details, you can see and download the library at :

http://www.inria.fr/koala/kbml/

Hope to hear from you soon.
Thierry.

-- 
Thierry Kormann
email: Thierry.Kormann@sophia.inria.fr  http://www.inria.fr/koala/thierry/
Koala/Dyade/Bull @ INRIA - Sophia Antipolis






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From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk  Tue Jul 13 11:42:52 1999
From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: What about XML Pro??
Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA23180C3DC2@FL-EXCHANGE-03>

Dante,
 
FWIW they used to have access to a restricted usage evaluation version
somewhere on the site.
 
Regards
 
Andy B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dante M. Lee [mailto:dtmlee@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov]
Sent: 12 July 1999 21:41
To: XML Developers
Subject: What about XML Pro??



Does anyone know whether or not the program "XML Pro" is worth my
investment. It is available at www.vervet.com, and it claims to be able help
to XML developers. Please let me know if it is a helpful tool. 

 


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From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr  Tue Jul 13 13:27:55 1999
From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: [Q] SAX/DOM and DocumentFragment
Message-ID: <199907131128.NAA03469@chimay.loria.fr>


While i am parsing a large XML document within a SAX parser, i would like to 
build some document fragments with DOM. The main pb is that it is necessary to 
use a Document instance to create an Element corresponding to the fragment.

What is the best way for using the DocumentFragment within a SAX application. 
Any examples available ?

Thanks,

Pat.

-- 
  ==============================================================
  bonhomme@loria.fr               |      Office : B.228
  http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme   |      Phone  : 03 83 59 30 52
  --------------------------------------------------------------
   * Serveur Silfide  : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide
  ==============================================================



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From henry_fieglein at dgbank.de  Tue Jul 13 15:47:17 1999
From: henry_fieglein at dgbank.de (henry_fieglein@dgbank.de)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XSL Development Tools
Message-ID: 

Hello,
I am new to this list.  I work for DG Bank in Frankfurt.  Currently we are
working on a Trading Floor Architecture which integrates all aspects of trading
within the bank.  We have created a centralized object (a DTD) which describes a
trade.  What we want to do is to use XSL to translate messages to/from the
various applications from/to an XML document.  I am pretty sure that we can
accomplish only one side of this with XSL, but I wanted to solicit responses
from this group.  Further, I want to be able to give a description of this
centralized object to a business analyst familiar with the application to be
integrated and a tool which allows him/her to build a data mapping to/from the
centralized object from the data format of the given application.  Is there any
knowledge of a tool(s) which can help me down this path.  I appreciate greatly
any and all responses.

Henry Fieglein
Global trading Software Architect
Deutsche Genossenschaftsbank
Am Platz der Republik
60325 Frankfurt am Main
Deutschland



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From cerium at ibm.net  Tue Jul 13 17:09:20 1999
From: cerium at ibm.net (John Hicks)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XSL Development Tools
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <002401becd41$6faa6980$9500a4d8@c31cj.cerium>

Hi Mr Fieglein:

You wrote:

> ...We have created a centralized object (a DTD)
> which describes a trade....

> I want... a tool which allows [a business analyst]
> to build a data mapping to/from the centralized object
> from the data format of the given application.

Have you looked at MQSeries Integrator 2.0 with XML?
http://www.software.ibm.com/ts/mqseries/library/mq/mqinteg.html

John Hicks

Cerium Component Software
XMLOutline | XMLdb | XMLServlet
212-662-3982 | 888-742-8989 | Fax 707-222-7651
http://ceriumworks.com
"Software as a conversation with a community."


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From btraynor at InSystems.com  Tue Jul 13 17:54:21 1999
From: btraynor at InSystems.com (Bill Traynor)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: What about XML Pro??
Message-ID: <4160E6FC08ABD21191F000805F857E93658F24@excmar-01.toronto.insystems.com>

I have read that XMLSpy is superior to XMLPro, however, I've not had a
chance to evaluate either.

Great source of XML tools is http://www.xmlsoftware.com/

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk
[mailto:Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:44 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: What about XML Pro??


Dante,
 
FWIW they used to have access to a restricted usage evaluation version
somewhere on the site.
 
Regards
 
Andy B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Dante M. Lee [mailto:dtmlee@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov]
Sent: 12 July 1999 21:41
To: XML Developers
Subject: What about XML Pro??



Does anyone know whether or not the program "XML Pro" is worth my
investment. It is available at www.vervet.com, and it claims to be able help
to XML developers. Please let me know if it is a helpful tool. 

 


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From John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com  Tue Jul 13 18:16:35 1999
From: John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com (John Evdemon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: What about XML Pro?
Message-ID: <852567AD.00598D9C.00@freddiemac.com>



I have used both XML Pro and XML Spy -- of the two I prefer XML Spy.
Another great tool to take a look at is XML Authority (especially if you are
working with large DTDs or schemas).

You can download a demo from http://www.extensibility.com/main_download.htm
Note: The demo will time-out after 10 uses.  (Enjoy it while you can!)  Single
user license is $99.00.

John Evdemon
Lead Technical Consultant
Perspective Technology Corp.
http://www.perspect.com




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From barclay at uwi.com  Tue Jul 13 23:10:05 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

Don,

>Perhaps the three groups (XFA, XFDL, and HTML forms) should get
together
outside W3C to create an XHTML module for rich form support.

I think this is a pretty good description of what we're involved in
right now AT the W3C.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

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From barclay at uwi.com  Tue Jul 13 23:14:20 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: <3782278A.756D3B81@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: 

John,

I agree that there is no reason that such a document cannot be
legally-binding, just as a will scratched in blood on a fence post CAN
be legally-binding.  However, in business we are generally concerned
with managing our risk as much as possible.  Therefore, having witnesses
at the signing of a contract, using notaries, lawyers, etc is a common
practice.

But, don't take my word for it, as a non-lawyer as well:

"Cohasset Associates believes there is a need to preserve as many elements
of the electronic transaction as possible, specifically, the complete
"visual presentation" of the transaction to the user. This will improve
significantly an organization?s ability to meet the tests of admissibility."

The full text is available at:

http://www.cohasset.com/comm_forms.html


Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
John Cowan
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 1999 8:58 AM
To: XML Dev
Subject: Re: XML for forms


Tim Bray wrote:
> As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is
> here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value
> pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T.

Disclaimer: NAL.

Any legal document draws most of its meaning from context.
A telegram that says "SELL HUNDRED THOUSAND SHARES IBM SHORT"
(only 190 bits in 5-bit Baudot code plus appropriate headers)
is as good a legal document as any, even sans digital signature.

--
John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan		cowan@ccil.org
   Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger
Schau,
   Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From barclay at uwi.com  Tue Jul 13 23:17:11 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Gavin,

>Determining admissible evidence is clearly outside the scope of
responsibility of an e-forms vendor. :-)

This reminds me of the argument that cigarette manufactures don't need
to worry  about the cancer that their cigarettes cause -- a specious
argument, but one that made them wealthy for many years.  :-)

Obviously it is the responsibility of a vendor to ensure that their users
are getting solutions that they need.  The simple fact is that any
document used in conducting business becomes part of an audit trail that
must be sound if organizations are to protect themselves.  Why should an
e-forms vendor be less responsible for this than, say, a vendor of
printed checks or multi-part forms?

>It requires that content (data) and the context (presentation) be
signed, but fusing the data content and the presentation together isn't
necessary; and it is very costly on a number of levels.

This sounds like an "e-forms vendor's" opinion on legal-related issues
to me.  Hmmn. Some legal experts wouldn't agree with your assessment.
For example:

"Historically, capturing and maintaining over time all of the major elements
of the business transaction includes: 1) the data (the content), 2) the
reason for the transaction (the context), and 3) some or all elements of the
visual and interactive presentation of the transaction (the structure). This
has been deemed to be increasingly important as the value of electronic
transactions increases. For transactions in the tens or hundreds of dollars,
the risk of loss is not that significant. Therefore, the requirement to
retain every element of detail may not be as critical for regulatory
compliance or for discovery and litigation. However, as the value of the
transaction, or the value of the information that is part of the
transaction, increases to the hundreds of thousands or even millions of
dollars, the details retained can be tantamount to winning or losing."

The full text is available at: http://www.cohasset.com/comm_forms.html
if you are interested in more information.

Barclay


 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Gavin McKenzie
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:06 PM
To: 'Tim Bray'; David Megginson; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms



Tim Bray writes:
> Emulating paper isn't the issue; making the transaction admissable
> as evidence is.

Determining admissible evidence is clearly outside the scope of
responsibility of an e-forms vendor. :-)

> That is why XFDL for example insists on including
> in the form document all the presentational information and so on -
> the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to
> the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the
> user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation.  (Mind you,
> this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with
> custom tags as XFDL did).

Sign yes. Include no.  It requires that content (data) and the context
(presentation) be signed, but fusing the data content and the presentation
together isn't necessary; and it is very costly on a number of levels.

Simply including a fingerprint of the presentation as part of the data
signing is sufficient.  Nothing more is achieved by choosing to store or
incorporate the presentation with the data or vice-versa.

>
> As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is
> here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value
> pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T.

True.  Hence why incorporating the presentation as a participant in the
signature is so important.

But also recognize that not all forms require such a heavy hand of security.
Many forms are used in (closed) environments with a higher level of trust.
Other forms are simply 'worksheets' that facilitate the data entry of data
which is completely self-describing and can be signed on its own.

Some processes do not need to sacrifice the particular aspect of flexibility
that is lost when signing data in concert with presentation -- the
flexibility lost is that the data won't verify in another
presentation...this of course is the primary feature of including the
presentation in the signature, but in some usage contexts this feature is
undesirable.

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From barclay at uwi.com  Tue Jul 13 23:18:50 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

Gavin,

I'm interested to know from where you are deriving your opinion that
"persisting presentation and data together isn't required or necessary,"
when legal experts have stated differently.  I'd been interested in any
information that you could provide from legal experts who say that it is
better, or even good practice, to separate the questions and answers of
a form.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Gavin McKenzie
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:31 PM
To: 'Tim Bray'; 'David Megginson'; 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
Subject: RE: XML for forms



Ooops...pardon me, something unfortunate has just been brought to my
attention.

> Tim Bray wrote:
> > That is why XFDL for example insists on including
> > in the form document all the presentational information and so on -
> > the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to
> > the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the
> > user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation.  (Mind you,
> > this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with
> > custom tags as XFDL did).

Gavin McKenzie wrote:
> Sign yes. Include no.  It requires that content (data) and


My comments might lead somebody to believe that I am attempting to clarify
the position of XFDL -- if it isn't already obvious from the domain of my
email address, I am doing no such thing -- obviously based on my previous
emails I have a professional bias on this topic towards the body of work
known as XFA.  I am speaking for my own opinions and the XFA specifications.

When I said, "It requires that..." I was not speaking of XFDL, which I
cannot speak for.  Rather, I was generally stating that "Non-repudiation
(often) requires that the context and presentation be signed...".

People (customers) have a wide range of requirements that are not best
served by a single simple solution.  Persisting presentation and data
together isn't required or necessary.

> the context (presentation) be signed, but fusing the data
> content and the presentation together isn't necessary; and it
> is very costly on a number of levels.
>
> Simply including a fingerprint of the presentation as part of the data
> signing is sufficient.  Nothing more is achieved by choosing
> to store or
> incorporate the presentation with the data or vice-versa.
>
> >
> > As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is
> > here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value
> > pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T.
>
> True.  Hence why incorporating the presentation as a
> participant in the
> signature is so important.
>
> But also recognize that not all forms require such a heavy
> hand of security.
> Many forms are used in (closed) environments with a higher
> level of trust.
> Other forms are simply 'worksheets' that facilitate the data
> entry of data
> which is completely self-describing and can be signed on its own.
>
> Some processes do not need to sacrifice the particular aspect
> of flexibility
> that is lost when signing data in concert with presentation -- the
> flexibility lost is that the data won't verify in another
> presentation...this of course is the primary feature of including the
> presentation in the signature, but in some usage contexts
> this feature is
> undesirable.

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From RMcDouga at JetForm.com  Tue Jul 13 23:50:46 1999
From: RMcDouga at JetForm.com (Rob McDougall)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <311000B0752ED211B61700805F0D6B09C4ABC5@OTTMAIL3>

Gavin's intent is clearer in its original context than in the heavily edited
one you provide.

Signing and persistence are two separate issues.  Yes, the signing of a form
must include the presentation and the content, but no, the two do not need
to be persisted together.  The signature (which can include the
presentation's fingerprint) + the data is sufficient to determine if the
correct presentation is being subsequently used.

If the signature includes the presentation in its digest then it will not
verify with a different presentation.  One can persist the data and
presentation separately with all the attendant savings.

Were these legal agents you speak of apprised of this option?

Rob


-----Original Message-----
From: Barclay Blair [mailto:barclay@uwi.com]
Sent: July 13, 1999 5:21 PM
To: Gavin McKenzie; 'Tim Bray'; 'David Megginson'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


Gavin,

I'm interested to know from where you are deriving your opinion that
"persisting presentation and data together isn't required or necessary,"
when legal experts have stated differently.  I'd been interested in any
information that you could provide from legal experts who say that it is
better, or even good practice, to separate the questions and answers of
a form.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Gavin McKenzie
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:31 PM
To: 'Tim Bray'; 'David Megginson'; 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
Subject: RE: XML for forms

When I said, "It requires that..." I was not speaking of XFDL, which I
cannot speak for.  Rather, I was generally stating that "Non-repudiation
(often) requires that the context and presentation be signed...".

People (customers) have a wide range of requirements that are not best
served by a single simple solution.  Persisting presentation and data
together isn't required or necessary.


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From yiminz at timberline.com  Wed Jul 14 00:17:11 1999
From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML and Microsoft Word
Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB7095@laposte.timberline.com>

Does anybody know whether it is possible to serialize and deserialize data
between an XML document and a Microsoft Word form?

Joe

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From barclay at uwi.com  Wed Jul 14 00:34:14 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: <311000B0752ED211B61700805F0D6B09C4ABC5@OTTMAIL3>
Message-ID: 

Rob,

Sorry, I didn't mean to obfuscate Gavin's intent by "heavily editing" his
original message, which I assume everyone on the list has had a chance to
read by now.

>Signing and persistence are two separate issues.

Clearly, yes.

>Yes, the signing of a form must include the presentation and the content,
but no, the two do not need to be persisted together.

>The signature (which can include the presentation's fingerprint) + the data
is sufficient to determine if the correct presentation is being subsequently
used.

According to whom?

Rob, what exactly do you mean by a "presentation fingerprint" here? How is
this bound to the data and structure of the record?

>If the signature includes the presentation in its digest then it will not
verify with a different presentation.

The issue here is whether or not an independent third party can verify the
exact state of the data, presentation, and structure (the components
necessary to create a binding record) at the time the user applied the
signature.

I'm not totally clear on what you mean when you talk about "a different
presentation."  If you are talking about presenting the same data in
multiple formats, then you are actually talking about presenting multiple
documents.  If this is the case, then each different "view" needs to be
treated as a different document.

If you refer back to the Cohasset document I pointed out, you will see that
it touches on concepts that are well defined by organizations like AIIM.
These guidelines state that even small alterations in the appearance of a
document can seriously alter its legal weight.  I would encourage you to
check this information out.

>One can persist the data and presentation separately with all the attendant
savings.

What type of savings are you referring to?

>Were these legal agents you speak of apprised of this option?

Systems that keep document templates and data in separate places have been
around for ages, so I would guess that they were aware of them.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Rob McDougall
Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 2:47 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


Gavin's intent is clearer in its original context than in the heavily edited
one you provide.

Signing and persistence are two separate issues.  Yes, the signing of a form
must include the presentation and the content, but no, the two do not need
to be persisted together.  The signature (which can include the
presentation's fingerprint) + the data is sufficient to determine if the
correct presentation is being subsequently used.

If the signature includes the presentation in its digest then it will not
verify with a different presentation.  One can persist the data and
presentation separately with all the attendant savings.

Were these legal agents you speak of apprised of this option?

Rob


-----Original Message-----
From: Barclay Blair [mailto:barclay@uwi.com]
Sent: July 13, 1999 5:21 PM
To: Gavin McKenzie; 'Tim Bray'; 'David Megginson'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


Gavin,

I'm interested to know from where you are deriving your opinion that
"persisting presentation and data together isn't required or necessary,"
when legal experts have stated differently.  I'd been interested in any
information that you could provide from legal experts who say that it is
better, or even good practice, to separate the questions and answers of
a form.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Gavin McKenzie
Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:31 PM
To: 'Tim Bray'; 'David Megginson'; 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
Subject: RE: XML for forms

When I said, "It requires that..." I was not speaking of XFDL, which I
cannot speak for.  Rather, I was generally stating that "Non-repudiation
(often) requires that the context and presentation be signed...".

People (customers) have a wide range of requirements that are not best
served by a single simple solution.  Persisting presentation and data
together isn't required or necessary.


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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Wed Jul 14 01:25:47 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:51 2004
Subject: OASIS individual memberships
Message-ID: <199907132328.QAA07380@boethius.eng.sun.com>

Sorry it's taken me this long to comment; I just now caught up with
the xml-dev digest that contains Simon's inquiry.  And apologies in
advance if this fails to take into account further messages on this
subject sent over the last two days, which will be in the digest that
hasn't been sent yet.

[Simon St.Laurent:]

| OASIS (the Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information
| Standards) has created a new category of membership, individual
| membership ($250/year).  The press release is at
| http://www.oasis-open.org/html/membership_opens.html.
| 
| While I loudly applaud their move to open their ranks to a larger body
| of members, which will hopefully bring them some new perspectives, I'm
| also having a hard time deciding whether it's worth my spending $250.

Well, I traded the xml.org domain for my individual membership.
That's what I think of it.

| I already spend $91/year for my ACM membership, and mostly get a
| magazine, an email alias, and what I call my 'union card' for that
| cash.  Deciding whether to spend $250 entails a bit more than just
| liking the organization.

OASIS provides a well-established, non-profit organization run by an
elected board of directors for the purpose of developing interoperable
structured information standards.  You provide the rest.

| The only committees appear to be XML Conformance, Registry and
| Repository, and DocBook.

There are as many technical committees as members commit to
organizing.  Conformance, Reg/Rep, and DocBook were the ones that were
already operational before OASIS decided to admit individual members.
Past OASIS efforts include the SGML Open Catalog mechanism, the
standardization of CALS table markup, and the fragment specification
upon which the current W3C XML Fragment work is based.

| How much output is there really?  OASIS seems like a good idea, but
| it's not clear how much it really _does_.

It does as much as you and the other members decide to do.

The same is true of any industry consortium: it does what its members
decide to promote with their participation.  One big difference
between OASIS and some other industry consortia is that it has decided
to open its membership to individuals.

Some of us believe that a consortium that allows individuals to
participate will make better progress than one that doesn't.  Whether
this is true remains to be seen.  It's possible that people would
rather complain about not being able to participate in standards
processes than actually do the work; it's certainly easier.  I'm
hoping that's not the case, but I could be wrong.

[Erik Freed, on the subject of forms languages:]

| As a representative for a company that can not afford to 'join' the
| w3c, I depressingly have to live behind the times at all times. I am
| sure they are well intentioned, but waiting for corporate
| representatives to lob a finished standard over the net well after
| they have established their corporate strategies around their advanced
| knowledge sure does not seem in the spirit of the whole thing does it?

Guess what: you've got an alternative.  If you want to develop a
standard for forms in a process that's open to view, do it.

| However if I did have the money to join...

$250 a year.  No more excuses.

Jon

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From nicmila at vscht.cz  Wed Jul 14 07:03:05 1999
From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: Location of XML2DTD program
Message-ID: <378C1A54.A88C9623@vscht.cz>

I do apologize for multiple posting, but when I announced the
availability of a script which generates DTD from XML template, I did
not realize, that what is obvious for the author it is not at all
obvious for the readers.
Each page at the site
(http://zvon.vscht.cz:/ZvonHTML/Zvon/zvonHomepage_en.html) contains at
the bottom links named DTD, XML and XSL. These links lead to the XML
source of the page, DTD for the XML source and XSL which was used for
the page generation. If you click on the DTD link on any page, you will
get the particular DTD with a link to the template and the tempalte
contains link to XSL used for the template transform.
You can also download entire site including XSL scripts at
http://zvon.vscht.cz:/ZvonHTML/Downloads/zvonBackupSite_en.html

-- 
***************************************************************
Dr. Miloslav Nic                        e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz
Department of Organic Chemistry         TEL: +420 2 2435 5012  
ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha)                     +420 2 2435 4118
    				        FAX: +420 2 2435 4288  
****************************************************************

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From grove at infotek.no  Wed Jul 14 14:43:10 1999
From: grove at infotek.no (Geir Ove Grønmo)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: ANN: tmproc 0.20, a Topic Maps implementation
Message-ID: 


Hello,

I'm pleased to announce the second release of tmproc, a Topic Map
processor. This release is updated according to the final standard.

Suggestions and bug reports should be sent to: grove@infotek.no

Enjoy!

Geir O. Gr?nmo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: tmproc

Version: 0.20
Released: July 14th 1999

Author: Geir O. Gr?nmo, grove@infotek.no

Homepage: http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/tmproc/index.html

- --
>>> What's new?

 o This version supports the final release of the standard.
 o Minor bugfixes
 o Works with the Java Platform (JPython[1])

- --
>>> What is tmproc?

tmproc is an implementation of the new international standard ISO/IEC
13250 Topic Maps[2]. tmproc is written in Python, and should work on
any platform to which Python have been ported - including the Java
Platform.

- --
>>> What are Topic Maps?

'Topic Maps' is a new international standard (ISO/IEC 13250) for
layering multidimensional topic spaces on top of information
assets. The standard covers concepts like topics, associations,
occurrences and facets/metadata. Topic Maps are expected to have a
major impact on future information systems.

- --
>>> Features

 o Import, export, query and manipulation of topic maps.

 o Full set of extensible topic map classes with clearly defined
   interfaces.

 o Optional architectural processing [requires xmlarch].

 o Introduction and reference documentation.

 o Statistical and information printing classes

 o Command line utility for interactive exploration

- --
>>> Requirements
   
  - Python 1.5.1 or newer [3]
  - An SGML/XML parser with a SAX driver
  - SAX for Python [4]
  - xmlarch 0.25, optional unless architectural processing is needed [5]

- --
>>> Licence

tmproc is free for both non-commercial and commercial
use. Redistribution of tmproc in commercial products requires another
licence. See [*] for detailed licence information.

- --
>>> References

[1] http://www.jpython.org/
[2] http://www.ornl.gov/sgml/SC34/
[3] http://www.python.org/
[4] http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/download/python/xml/saxlib.html
[5] http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/xmlarch/index.html

[*] http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/tmproc/licence.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      tmproc
0.20 - an implementation of Topic Maps, a new international
standard (ISO/IEC 13250:1999) for layering multidimensional topic spaces on
top of information assets. (14-Jul-1999)

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From gmckenzi at JetForm.com  Wed Jul 14 15:15:17 1999
From: gmckenzi at JetForm.com (Gavin McKenzie)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: 


Barclay,

Given this is the first time we've communicated, I must say that I'm not
impressed with the level of communication you've chosen.

See my comments below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Barclay Blair [mailto:barclay@uwi.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:20 PM
> To: Gavin McKenzie; 'Tim Bray'; David Megginson; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: XML for forms
> 
> 
> Gavin,
> 
> >Determining admissible evidence is clearly outside the scope of
> responsibility of an e-forms vendor. :-)
> 
> This reminds me of the argument that cigarette manufactures don't need
> to worry  about the cancer that their cigarettes cause -- a specious
> argument, but one that made them wealthy for many years.  :-)

I trust that your other contributions will be more substantive and relevant.
You really are stretching the literary license of a smiley.

According to Merriam-Webster Online, specious is defined as:

Main Entry: spe?cious
Pronunciation: 'spE-sh&s
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, visually pleasing, from Latin speciosus
beautiful, plausible, from species
Date: 1513
1 obsolete : SHOWY
2 : having deceptive attraction or allure
3 : having a false look of truth or genuineness : SOPHISTIC
- spe?cious?ly adverb
- spe?cious?ness noun 

Is there a point or connection that you're trying to make here?

> 
> Obviously it is the responsibility of a vendor to ensure that 
> their users
> are getting solutions that they need.  The simple fact is that any
> document used in conducting business becomes part of an audit 
> trail that
> must be sound if organizations are to protect themselves.

That's a nice sound bite, but what did this have to do with my original
post?

Appropriate solutions aren't met by 'simple fact'...unfortunately you've
just boxed all 'business' into a specific set of constraints.

Let's talk about responsibility over delivering appropriate solutions.

Security is based upon varying degrees of trust (or lack thereof).  We would
do well to provide security solutions that match the requirements of the
task at hand. 

For instance, when I fill out my timesheet at JetForm I sign it.  But
recognize that JetForm views this as an internal document, and there is a
certain level of trust between JetForm and myself.  It is unlikely that
JetForm will be seeking remedies to a timesheet that I have incorrectly
filled via a court of law; they have much simpler ways of correcting such
problems.  And in this case, the data is seen as sufficiently
self-describing that it can be signed on its own; that is, the data has been
signed without the incorporation of the presentation built into the
signature.  

Why?  Because if you sign data content along with presentation you are
limiting the ability of the signature to verify only when reincorporated
with the same presentation -- put another way, if the data is misrepresented
in another form, the signature will not verify.  That's the point.

But in the case of this particular timesheet used in an internal process it
has been deemed sufficient to sign the data on its own, and thus gain the
flexibility of representing the data within another presentation that
performs various comparison's of this month's timesheet data against
previous months.

So, for this scenario it was deemed that a lightweight approach to security
was sufficient, and met the other requirements for flexibility of
presentation.

Ok...so outside of an organization there are likely to be forms that require
a higher level of security.  These forms may require that the data be signed
in concert with the form's original presentation so that the signature will
only verify when presented in exactly the same way, in exactly the same
form.

Then there are potentially an unbounded number of solutions that fall in the
middle.  They require that some combination of the data and original form
presentation be incorporated into a signature, thus achieving a flexible
result where the data can be verified in a number of consistent contexts.

Oh, and there are undoubtedly a number of solutions where forms don't
require digital signatures at all.  Either because the process requires a
physical signature such as pen and ink (this will still be commonplace for a
*long* time to come) or because the data security needs are low, or maybe
the environment manages security and trust at a different level.

The reality is that creating appropriate solutions requires flexibility and
a keen attention to the requirements.

> Why should an
> e-forms vendor be less responsible for this than, say, a vendor of
> printed checks or multi-part forms?
> 
> >It requires that content (data) and the context (presentation) be
> signed, but fusing the data content and the presentation 
> together isn't
> necessary; and it is very costly on a number of levels.
> 
> This sounds like an "e-forms vendor's" opinion on legal-related issues
> to me.  Hmmn. Some legal experts wouldn't agree with your assessment.
> For example:

No. I am explaining a technology, not providing legal opinion. Read my
original post.  I was speaking of meeting the needs of digital signature
non-repudiation, not describing how a particular legal jurisdiction will
rule on the merits of digital signature technology, or the non-repudiation
that it claims to provide.

> 
> "Historically, capturing and maintaining over time all of the 
> major elements
> of the business transaction includes: 1) the data (the 
> content), 2) the
> reason for the transaction (the context), and 3) some or all 
> elements of the
> visual and interactive presentation of the transaction (the 
> structure). This
> has been deemed to be increasingly important as the value of 
> electronic
> transactions increases. For transactions in the tens or 
> hundreds of dollars,
> the risk of loss is not that significant. Therefore, the 
> requirement to
> retain every element of detail may not be as critical for regulatory
> compliance or for discovery and litigation. However, as the 
> value of the
> transaction, or the value of the information that is part of the
> transaction, increases to the hundreds of thousands or even 
> millions of
> dollars, the details retained can be tantamount to winning or losing."
> 
> The full text is available at: http://www.cohasset.com/comm_forms.html
> if you are interested in more information.
> 
> Barclay
> 

It would seem that you haven't read your own quotation.  Hence,

"...capturing and maintaining..." 
This says nothing about physically combining the data inside the
presentation, which is the basis of your assertions and your disagreement
with my posting.

"1) the data..."
Yes, that's what I have said.

"2) ...(the context)..."
Yes, that's what I have said.

"3) some or all of the elements..."
Note the "some **or** all part".  
This is what I have said.

The rest of the quotation goes on to state how the level of security should
be tailored to the level of risk (and trust).  It continues to state how the
retention of all the original details is not necessarily critical for
regulatory compliance, or discovery, or litigation.

This is what I have said.

Gavin.




> 
>  ============================================
>     Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
>     UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
>   v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
>  barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
> ============================================
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk 
> [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Gavin McKenzie
> Sent: Monday, July 05, 1999 1:06 PM
> To: 'Tim Bray'; David Megginson; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: XML for forms
> 
> 
> 
> Tim Bray writes:
> > Emulating paper isn't the issue; making the transaction admissable
> > as evidence is.
> 
> Determining admissible evidence is clearly outside the scope of
> responsibility of an e-forms vendor. :-)
> 
> > That is why XFDL for example insists on including
> > in the form document all the presentational information and so on -
> > the claim is that you have to digitally sign not only the answers to
> > the questions but the questions and how they were presented to the
> > user, in order to achieve the goal of non-repudiation.  (Mind you,
> > this should be done using CSS or flow objects rather than with
> > custom tags as XFDL did).
> 
> Sign yes. Include no.  It requires that content (data) and the context
> (presentation) be signed, but fusing the data content and the 
> presentation
> together isn't necessary; and it is very costly on a number of levels.
> 
> Simply including a fingerprint of the presentation as part of the data
> signing is sufficient.  Nothing more is achieved by choosing 
> to store or
> incorporate the presentation with the data or vice-versa.
> 
> >
> > As a legal illiterate, I'm not sure what the real state of play is
> > here - but I still think that a list of context-free name/value
> > pairs is a pretty shaky basis for a legally binding transaction. -T.
> 
> True.  Hence why incorporating the presentation as a 
> participant in the
> signature is so important.
> 
> But also recognize that not all forms require such a heavy 
> hand of security.
> Many forms are used in (closed) environments with a higher 
> level of trust.
> Other forms are simply 'worksheets' that facilitate the data 
> entry of data
> which is completely self-describing and can be signed on its own.
> 
> Some processes do not need to sacrifice the particular aspect 
> of flexibility
> that is lost when signing data in concert with presentation -- the
> flexibility lost is that the data won't verify in another
> presentation...this of course is the primary feature of including the
> presentation in the signature, but in some usage contexts 
> this feature is
> undesirable.
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, 
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From RMcDouga at JetForm.com  Wed Jul 14 16:40:55 1999
From: RMcDouga at JetForm.com (Rob McDougall)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <311000B0752ED211B61700805F0D6B09C4ABC8@OTTMAIL3>



>>Yes, the signing of a form must include the presentation and the content,
but no, the two do not need to be persisted together.
>>The signature (which can include the presentation's fingerprint) + the
data
is sufficient to determine if the correct presentation is being subsequently
used.
>According to whom?
>Rob, what exactly do you mean by a "presentation fingerprint" here? How is
this bound to the data and structure of the record?

This is just common sense.  While clearly the signature must include
presentation, because as (I believe) we both agree "a user signs the
presentation", that does not imply that the three parts (content, signature,
and presentation) must be persisted into a single object.  They can be
persisted separately, so long as the three are re-united for the
verification of the signature.

By storing them separately, one doesn't have to duplicate the presentation
over and over again with each filled in form.  This can have enormous
savings in disk space, network bandwidth, CPU usage, etc. when manipulating
the information.


>>If the signature includes the presentation in its digest then it will not
verify with a different presentation.
>The issue here is whether or not an independent third party can verify the
exact state of the data, presentation, and structure (the components
necessary to create a binding record) at the time the user applied the
signature.

Yes absolutely, but please explain to me why persisting these three things
together as one object is a requirement.  As long as the three can be
recombined to create the object that the user signed then there is no
requirement to persist them all as one object.

>I'm not totally clear on what you mean when you talk about "a different
presentation."  If you are talking about presenting the same data in
multiple formats, then you are actually talking about presenting multiple
documents.  If this is the case, then each different "view" needs to be
treated as a different document.
>If you refer back to the Cohasset document I pointed out, you will see that
it touches on concepts that are well defined by organizations like AIIM.
These guidelines state that even small alterations in the appearance of a
document can seriously alter its legal weight.  I would encourage you to
check this information out.

I've read this document and while I agree with many of the assertions they
make, there's one leap of logic that I cannot stomach however.  In the
"Electronic Forms Package" section, they basically say that e-forms systems
that store the presentation and content separately "can maintain this link
[between the presentation and content] for only a short period of time".
This patently false.  This linkage can be maintained for the life of the
document.

A trivial example of what Gavin and I are on about would be a CD-ROM that
contains many instances of signed XML content and one instance of the
presentation medium (say, an XSL stylesheet).  The linkage between the
content and the presentation is permanent and the savings from not having to
store many redundant copies of the stylesheet within the content are (I
hope) obvious to all.  If the signature is constructed to include both the
content and the stylesheet, then the signature will not verify a different
stylesheet.  Voila!  The presentation and content are stored separately, yet
you have the ability to reconstruct the document exactly as signed.  I think
you'll have a hard time finding someone who questions its legal validity.

Obviously, I have problems with the last section in the Cohasset document as
well, but I'm probably biased :).

>>One can persist the data and presentation separately with all the
attendant
savings.
>What type of savings are you referring to?

In the example above, disk space on the CD-ROM is saved.  If you're moving
these objects around your network, bandwidth is saved.  If you're reading
many sets of content into a single form, CPU is saved.  Need I go on?


>>Were these legal agents you speak of apprised of this option?
>Systems that keep document templates and data in separate places have been
around for ages, so I would guess that they were aware of them.

Apparently not.


>Barclay
>
> ===========================================
>   Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
>   UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
>   v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
>   barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
>  ===========================================


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From barclay at uwi.com  Wed Jul 14 18:33:06 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: <311000B0752ED211B61700805F0D6B09C4ABC8@OTTMAIL3>
Message-ID: 

Rob and Gavin,

Thanks for the responses -- very interesting! I always enjoy exchanging
ideas  (or barbs, as the case may be, Gavin :)).  I have some concerns that
we're in danger of boring the rest of the group with the semantics of form
presentation etc., so I'd be happy to continue the discussion individually
with each of you, instead of on the list. That is, unless the group or
yourselves feel strongly about continuing the dialogue on the list.

Thanks,

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Rob McDougall
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 7:37 AM
To: 'barclay@uwi.com'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms




>>Yes, the signing of a form must include the presentation and the content,
but no, the two do not need to be persisted together.
>>The signature (which can include the presentation's fingerprint) + the
data
is sufficient to determine if the correct presentation is being subsequently
used.
>According to whom?
>Rob, what exactly do you mean by a "presentation fingerprint" here? How is
this bound to the data and structure of the record?

This is just common sense.  While clearly the signature must include
presentation, because as (I believe) we both agree "a user signs the
presentation", that does not imply that the three parts (content, signature,
and presentation) must be persisted into a single object.  They can be
persisted separately, so long as the three are re-united for the
verification of the signature.

By storing them separately, one doesn't have to duplicate the presentation
over and over again with each filled in form.  This can have enormous
savings in disk space, network bandwidth, CPU usage, etc. when manipulating
the information.


>>If the signature includes the presentation in its digest then it will not
verify with a different presentation.
>The issue here is whether or not an independent third party can verify the
exact state of the data, presentation, and structure (the components
necessary to create a binding record) at the time the user applied the
signature.

Yes absolutely, but please explain to me why persisting these three things
together as one object is a requirement.  As long as the three can be
recombined to create the object that the user signed then there is no
requirement to persist them all as one object.

>I'm not totally clear on what you mean when you talk about "a different
presentation."  If you are talking about presenting the same data in
multiple formats, then you are actually talking about presenting multiple
documents.  If this is the case, then each different "view" needs to be
treated as a different document.
>If you refer back to the Cohasset document I pointed out, you will see that
it touches on concepts that are well defined by organizations like AIIM.
These guidelines state that even small alterations in the appearance of a
document can seriously alter its legal weight.  I would encourage you to
check this information out.

I've read this document and while I agree with many of the assertions they
make, there's one leap of logic that I cannot stomach however.  In the
"Electronic Forms Package" section, they basically say that e-forms systems
that store the presentation and content separately "can maintain this link
[between the presentation and content] for only a short period of time".
This patently false.  This linkage can be maintained for the life of the
document.

A trivial example of what Gavin and I are on about would be a CD-ROM that
contains many instances of signed XML content and one instance of the
presentation medium (say, an XSL stylesheet).  The linkage between the
content and the presentation is permanent and the savings from not having to
store many redundant copies of the stylesheet within the content are (I
hope) obvious to all.  If the signature is constructed to include both the
content and the stylesheet, then the signature will not verify a different
stylesheet.  Voila!  The presentation and content are stored separately, yet
you have the ability to reconstruct the document exactly as signed.  I think
you'll have a hard time finding someone who questions its legal validity.

Obviously, I have problems with the last section in the Cohasset document as
well, but I'm probably biased :).

>>One can persist the data and presentation separately with all the
attendant
savings.
>What type of savings are you referring to?

In the example above, disk space on the CD-ROM is saved.  If you're moving
these objects around your network, bandwidth is saved.  If you're reading
many sets of content into a single form, CPU is saved.  Need I go on?


>>Were these legal agents you speak of apprised of this option?
>Systems that keep document templates and data in separate places have been
around for ages, so I would guess that they were aware of them.

Apparently not.


>Barclay
>
> ===========================================
>   Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
>   UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
>   v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
>   barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
>  ===========================================


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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jul 14 18:45:44 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990714094801.0123fe80@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

I think it's inappropriate for vendors of competitive products to be 
snarling at each other in this forum.    -Tim

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From mfeblowitz at gte.com  Wed Jul 14 19:02:08 1999
From: mfeblowitz at gte.com (Mark Feblowitz)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: Where can I find a DTD for XSL?
Message-ID: 

We would like to use an XML editor (e.g., emil?) to edit XSL, but 
first we need the DTD. Where can such a thing be found?

Thanks

Mark
____________________________________________________________
Mark Feblowitz			GTE Laboratories Incorporated
mfeblowitz@gte.com		40 Sylvan Road,	Waltham, MA 02154-1120
http://macfebg3.gte.com/MarkFeblowitz




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From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com  Wed Jul 14 19:19:42 1999
From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E5E46BE@crusher.jcals.csc.com>

Barclay Blair wrote:
> 
> Rob and Gavin,
> 
> Thanks for the responses -- very interesting! I always enjoy exchanging
> ideas  (or barbs, as the case may be, Gavin :)).  I have some concerns
that
> we're in danger of boring the rest of the group with the semantics of form
> presentation etc., so I'd be happy to continue the discussion individually
> with each of you, instead of on the list. That is, unless the group or
> yourselves feel strongly about continuing the dialogue on the list.

   This discussion, while quite interesting, is clearly inappropriate for
this list - as Tim noted. But I do have a (hopefully) more relevant
question. As someone who has only begun to look into both
technologies/products, I have yet to determine whether each
technology/product will allow me to interact with their forms using standard
DOM/SAX methods.

   From what I've seen so far I'm concerned that this need to capture
presentation aspects of a form might be leading to proprietary development
within the underlying specs. I'm envisioning working with XML-based forms in
the context of a larger XML-enabled process and I'd hate to get tied into a
single product to support that requirement.

   Again, I haven't had a chance to go far enough yet. But feel free to
enlighten me please. Thanks.

Mike

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From barclay at uwi.com  Wed Jul 14 20:09:18 1999
From: barclay at uwi.com (Barclay Blair)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
In-Reply-To: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E5E46BE@crusher.jcals.csc.com>
Message-ID: 

Thanks for pointing out this concern, and I sincerely apologize to the group
for the inappropriate postings. I will keep further postings within the
boundaries of tone and content that are more suitable.

Mike, as to your question, I believe the answer is yes for both XFA and
XFDL.

Any parser that uses SAX/DOM can read, change, and write XFDL forms, but the
?additional? features that XFDL offers, such as digital signatures,
formatting, computations, etc, will not be active using those standard
parsers.

Barclay

 ============================================
    Barclay Blair -- Industry Relations
    UWI.Com -- The InternetForms Company
  v: 250-479-8334 x161   fx: 250-479-3772
 barclay@uwi.com	       www.uwi.com
============================================

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Michael Rossi
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:18 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


Barclay Blair wrote:
>
> Rob and Gavin,
>
> Thanks for the responses -- very interesting! I always enjoy exchanging
> ideas  (or barbs, as the case may be, Gavin :)).  I have some concerns
that
> we're in danger of boring the rest of the group with the semantics of form
> presentation etc., so I'd be happy to continue the discussion individually
> with each of you, instead of on the list. That is, unless the group or
> yourselves feel strongly about continuing the dialogue on the list.

   This discussion, while quite interesting, is clearly inappropriate for
this list - as Tim noted. But I do have a (hopefully) more relevant
question. As someone who has only begun to look into both
technologies/products, I have yet to determine whether each
technology/product will allow me to interact with their forms using standard
DOM/SAX methods.

   From what I've seen so far I'm concerned that this need to capture
presentation aspects of a form might be leading to proprietary development
within the underlying specs. I'm envisioning working with XML-based forms in
the context of a larger XML-enabled process and I'd hate to get tied into a
single product to support that requirement.

   Again, I haven't had a chance to go far enough yet. But feel free to
enlighten me please. Thanks.

Mike

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk  Wed Jul 14 21:19:48 1999
From: mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk (Giorgos Kaltekis)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: general external entity reference from a DTD to another one?
Message-ID: <000d01bece71$00d2e4c0$19a95882@gp.umist.ac.uk>

can I use a reference to a general external entity within a DTD to refer to another DTD?
For example if I declare


can I use the following within a DTD for book, let's say book.dtd :



so that I give the CHAPTER1 element the structure described in chapter1.dtd?


cheers 
George
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From RMcDouga at JetForm.com  Wed Jul 14 21:35:53 1999
From: RMcDouga at JetForm.com (Rob McDougall)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <311000B0752ED211B61700805F0D6B09C4ABCE@OTTMAIL3>

I agree, however I think that a frank discussion about the separation of
presentation and content and its implications to signed documents *is*
appropriate.

Our colleagues at UWI believe that you must sacrifice the former to achieve
the latter.  This is a point on which we do not agree.

Rob

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@textuality.com]
Sent: July 14, 1999 12:48 PM
To: Rob McDougall; 'barclay@uwi.com'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for forms


I think it's inappropriate for vendors of competitive products to be 
snarling at each other in this forum.    -Tim

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Wed Jul 14 21:38:27 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:52 2004
Subject: general external entity reference from a DTD to another one?
In-Reply-To: <000d01bece71$00d2e4c0$19a95882@gp.umist.ac.uk> from "Giorgos Kaltekis" at Jul 14, 99 08:20:35 pm
Message-ID: <199907142010.QAA22057@locke.ccil.org>

Giorgos Kaltekis scripsit:

> can I use a reference to a general external entity within a DTD to refer =
> to another DTD?

No.  But you can use a parameter entity instead.

> For example if I declare
> 



> 
> can I use the following within a DTD for book, let's say book.dtd :
> 
> 


> so that I give the CHAPTER1 element the structure described in =
> chapter1.dtd?

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jul 14 22:56:58 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990714135911.01208290@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

At 03:31 PM 7/14/99 -0400, Rob McDougall wrote:
>I agree, however I think that a frank discussion about the separation of
>presentation and content and its implications to signed documents *is*
>appropriate.

Absolutely. -T.


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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Wed Jul 14 22:56:39 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: XML
Message-ID: <000e01bece3b$ad84b3a0$334ffea9@litebook>

For about 4 months I have been looking for ways of  XML ing the software I was planning to write. My conclusions may be of interest to others.


My conclusion as how I should write my application is:
for data definitions I start with a name space file ie namespace.xml
For screen style sheet I may need another namespace file to help the user choose appearance.

I then take XSchema, make some additions to it for input fields, field lengths, field types etc.....
and develop a data entry interface that obeys this "new enhanced Xschema"

This was the user can define their own fields and do a straight forward data entry / edit screen that would look similar to Access forms.

I then use XSL definitions to "merge" the data with the XSL to produce HTML which in the short term I can use Internet explorer for viewing and printing until I have produced my own viewer.

For reporting I need XQL which can run down a nindex file and pull in all items that obeys that index and examine them for the data in them. This builds an XML data string which then when an XSL style sheet defn is applied "merges" the data into a HTML document.

For internet email transmissions there is two options: sent the HTML file, or send the XML data and XSL style sheet definitions so the package at the other end can produce the HTML view.

The implications of this approach are:
Must constrain all functions to produce acceptable HTML
do not need XFA, XFDL, or any other not yet recommended standard.

Have to produce an XSchema of my own, but since it is only used in my package it does not matter if it does not conform to any standards.



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From niko at cmsplatform.com  Thu Jul 15 00:03:47 1999
From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: XML for forms
Message-ID: <020701bece45$13435e40$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>

Whilst Tim Bray is absolutely correct (and i must admit that i wasn't hip to
the clash-of-vendors subtext), i've derived considerable value from this
particular thread.

Our company produces medical and pharmaceutical reference books and
databases, and we are therefore very concerned with information security.
We need to ensure that author submissions (over the Internet) are not
corrupted, we maintain audit trails for editorial revisions, etc.  Our
initial interest in XML is based upon the traditional "document with markup"
use, but we're also looking very seriously at wider use of XML for
business-to-business data exchange and e-commerce.

XML has a designed separation of text with markup, graphic images,
presentation stylesheets, and DTD/schema content validation objects.
Therefore, i hope this thread will be continued with some concrete
thoughts/examples on how to ensure that these separate content and
presentation "files" can be aggregated, and how to construct standard,
secure, containers/envelopes for same.

-Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo.

P.S.  BTW, a recent, decent, overview article on Public Key Infrastructure
(PKI) is at http://www.informationweek.com/738/pki.htm.


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From jes at kuantech.com  Thu Jul 15 00:29:19 1999
From: jes at kuantech.com (Jeffrey E. Sussna)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <000001bece48$7e359300$7418a8c0@jsussna2.quokka.com>

Does the XSchema datatypes spec support the notion of units of measurement?
In other words:

	element "x" is of type "speed", which can be in "mph" or "kph"

A potential representation of this might be:

	200

Jeff Sussna


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From jamest at math.ksu.edu  Thu Jul 15 06:16:39 1999
From: jamest at math.ksu.edu (James Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: expat shared library
Message-ID: 


I'd check the archives but I can't until I get a message on the list with
the instructions on the bottom.  Kind of a catch 22 :-)

Trying to build a shared library out of expat so I can add it my my own
shared lib

Modified Makefile

  CC=libtool gcc

  modified the OBJS to reference .lo in place of .o

  added

libexpat.la: $(OBJS)
        libtool gcc -g -O -o libexpat.la $(OBS) -rpath /usr/local/lib -lm

did a 
make 
make libexpat.la

next (as root)
          libtool install -c libexpat.la /usr/local/lib/liblibexpat.la  
          libtool --finish /usr/local/lib
          cp xmlparse/xmlparse.h /usr/local/include/
          cp xmlparse/xmlparse.h /usr/local/include/
	  /sbin/ldconfig 

Then I added -lexpat to my Makefile.am on my program

doing a make / make check results in

[jamest@calvin obelisk]$ make check
Making check in obelib
make[1]: Entering directory `/home/jamest/obelisk/obelib'
make  test test2
make[2]: Entering directory `/home/jamest/obelisk/obelib'
gcc -DHAVE_CONFIG_H -I. -I. -I.. -I/usr/lib/glib/include    -g -O2 -c
test.c
/bin/sh ../libtool --mode=link gcc  -g -O2  -o test  test.o libobe.la  
gcc -g -O2 -o .libs/test test.o .libs/libobe.so -lglib -lgmodule -lexpat
-Wl,--rpath -Wl,/usr/local/lib
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_SetElementHandler'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_Parse'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_ParserFree'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_ErrorString'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_ParserCreate'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_SetUserData'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_GetErrorCode'
.libs/libobe.so: undefined reference to `XML_GetCurrentLineNumber'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[2]: *** [test] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/jamest/obelisk/obelib'
make[1]: *** [check-am] Error 2
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/jamest/obelisk/obelib'
make: *** [check-recursive] Error 1


Any ideas on what I'm missing/doing wrong? 

TIA

->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<
James Thompson    138 Cardwell Hall  Manhattan, Ks   66506    785-532-0561 
Kansas State University                          Department of Mathematics
->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->->---<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<-<




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From grove at infotek.no  Thu Jul 15 08:17:01 1999
From: grove at infotek.no (Geir Ove Grønmo)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: ANN: tmproc 0.20, a Topic Maps implementation
Message-ID: 


Hello,

I'm pleased to announce the second release of tmproc, a Topic Map
processor. This release is updated according to the final standard.

Suggestions and bug reports should be sent to: grove@infotek.no

Enjoy!

Geir O. Gr?nmo

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Title: tmproc

Version: 0.20
Released: July 14th 1999

Author: Geir O. Gr?nmo, grove@infotek.no

Homepage: http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/tmproc/index.html

- --
>>> What's new?

 o This version supports the final release of the standard.
 o Minor bugfixes
 o Works with the Java Platform (JPython[1])

- --
>>> What is tmproc?

tmproc is an implementation of the new international standard ISO/IEC
13250 Topic Maps[2]. tmproc is written in Python, and should work on
any platform to which Python have been ported - including the Java
Platform.

- --
>>> What are Topic Maps?

'Topic Maps' is a new international standard (ISO/IEC 13250) for
layering multidimensional topic spaces on top of information
assets. The standard covers concepts like topics, associations,
occurrences and facets/metadata. Topic Maps are expected to have a
major impact on future information systems.

- --
>>> Features

 o Import, export, query and manipulation of topic maps.

 o Full set of extensible topic map classes with clearly defined
   interfaces.

 o Optional architectural processing [requires xmlarch].

 o Introduction and reference documentation.

 o Statistical and information printing classes

 o Command line utility for interactive exploration

- --
>>> Requirements
   
  - Python 1.5.1 or newer [3]
  - An SGML/XML parser with a SAX driver
  - SAX for Python [4]
  - xmlarch 0.25, optional unless architectural processing is needed [5]

- --
>>> Licence

tmproc is free for both non-commercial and commercial
use. Redistribution of tmproc in commercial products requires another
licence. See [*] for detailed licence information.

- --
>>> References

[1] http://www.jpython.org/
[2] http://www.ornl.gov/sgml/SC34/
[3] http://www.python.org/
[4] http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/download/python/xml/saxlib.html
[5] http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/xmlarch/index.html

[*] http://www.infotek.no/~grove/software/tmproc/licence.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


      tmproc
0.20 - an implementation of Topic Maps, a new international
standard (ISO/IEC 13250:1999) for layering multidimensional topic spaces on
top of information assets. (14-Jul-1999)

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Thu Jul 15 09:50:12 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <01BECEA8.221DD2C0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Jeffrey E. Sussna wrote:

> Does the XSchema datatypes spec support the notion of units of 
measurement?
> In other words:
>
> 	element "x" is of type "speed", which can be in "mph" or "kph"
>
> A potential representation of this might be:
>
> 	200

Sort of.  What you can actually do is define a speed data type and say that 
the *units* attribute (not the x element) is of type speed -- that is, its 
value is either "mph" or "kph".  You can also say that the x element must 
have a units attribute.

Note that you can also do this specific example with DTDs, by defining 
units as an attribute with an enumerated type.

(Nit: XSchema is the name of the predecessor of DDML. I believe you are 
referring to XML Schemas -- the schema language being developed by the W3C. 
 Given the amount of confusion over these names, I'm beginning to wonder if 
we shouldn't donate the XSchema name to the W3C...)

-- Ron Bourret


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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Thu Jul 15 10:02:19 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: XML
Message-ID: <01BECEA9.CD477600@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Trevor Croll wrote:

> For about 4 months I have been looking for ways of  XML ing the software 
I was > planning to write. My conclusions may be of interest to others.
>
>
> My conclusion as how I should write my application is:
> for data definitions I start with a name space file ie namespace.xml
> For screen style sheet I may need another namespace file to help the user 
choose > appearance.

What is a "namespace file"?  Do you mean a schema file?

-- Ron Bourret


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From tom.otvos at pervasive.com  Thu Jul 15 14:57:16 1999
From: tom.otvos at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C8477@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com>

Hello all,
 
I was hoping that the general wisdom on this list might be able to help
settle a development debate we are having here.  In an app we are working
on, we are creating XML documents that have, as content to some elements,
HTML.  When writing out these documents, the elements which contain HTML
wrap their content in CDATA sections to avoid having to entity-encode all of
the angle brackets and ampersands.
 
Now, as product development progressed, we found that we wanted to preserve
the formatting of the HTML content, which required entity-encoding carriage
returns in the HTML so that the parser would return them correctly.
Naturally, the entity encodings had to appear outside of a CDATA section, so
the HTML elements were now broken up into many smaller CDATA sections,
separated by entity-encoded carriage returns.  
 
It was starting to look goofy, but it worked ok.  Then (just for fun) we
opened up our documents in a variety of XML editors (like IE5, which I know
is not an editor but it does display the structure).  To our surprise, the
CDATA sections were showing up in the structure, whereas the entity
encodings were silently converted.  A debate ensued as to whether or not
this was right, and whether or not our use of CDATA was "dumb".  The
proposed alternative was to skip CDATA altogether and just entity-encode the
HTML, making it virtually illegible in a text editor but very readable in an
XML editor.
 
So, my question is should CDATA sections in an XML document be considered
structural, and warrant being displayed in an XML editor, or should they be
considered more like "parser control" and be silently interpreted in the
same way that entity encodings are?  Although we cannot change the way the
current crop of XML editors behaves, it would be nice to know what the
conventional wisdom *thinks* should be happening.
Tom Otvos
Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc.
"Try not! Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda



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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Thu Jul 15 14:58:10 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: ANN: XML-DBMS (alpha version)
Message-ID: <01BECED3.23257030@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

I have just released an alpha version of XML-DBMS, which is a set of Java 
packages for transferring data between XML documents and relational 
databases. It views the XML document as a tree of objects in which element 
types are generally classes and attributes and PCDATA properties of those 
classes. It then uses an object-relational mapping to map these objects to 
the database. An XML-based mapping language is used to define the view and 
map it to the database.

The software is Open Source and uses the Cowan variation of the Megginson 
license (No copyright, no warranty; use as you will).

You can read more about XML-DBMS, as well as download it, from:

http://www.informatik.tu-darmstadt.de/DVS1/staff/bourret/xmldbms/xmldbms  
.htm

-- Ron Bourret


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From kurt.donath at lmco.com  Thu Jul 15 15:11:16 1999
From: kurt.donath at lmco.com (Kurt Donath)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: What's up with XLink?
Message-ID: <378DDE80.BE843A49@lmco.com>


I haven't heard a thing about XLink for a long time.  Does anyone have
any insight into what's going on?

-- 

Kurt Donath
315.456.6276
Staff Systems Engineer
Intranet: http://www.syr.lmco.com/~donath/
.  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
                   Lockheed Martin - Enterprise Information Systems
                                      Systems Engineering / Webserv

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From matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk  Thu Jul 15 15:18:08 1999
From: matt.sergeant at bbc.co.uk (Matt Sergeant)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Otvos [mailto:tom.otvos@pervasive.com]
> 
The
> proposed alternative was to skip CDATA altogether and just 
> entity-encode the
> HTML, making it virtually illegible in a text editor but very 
> readable in an
> XML editor.

To make it more readable you could just encode "<" and "&" - they're the
only characters you really have to encode. The only way I see that getting
_really_ ugly is if you have & in your HTML.

Sorry, I know this doesn't answer your question though, but that's only
because I didn't quite understand what you were saying. It sounded as though
you were saying that the XML editors (or your parser) *weren't* preserving
carriage returns in CDATA sections. Any editor that does this should be
thrown out IMHO - it's broken behaviour. Of course if that's not what you're
saying, perhaps you could be a little more clear for me.

Matt.

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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Thu Jul 15 15:40:58 1999
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: What's up with XLink?
In-Reply-To: <378DDE80.BE843A49@lmco.com>; from Kurt Donath on Thu, Jul 15, 1999 at 09:13:36AM -0400
References: <378DDE80.BE843A49@lmco.com>
Message-ID: <19990715094316.E26427@w3.org>

On Thu, Jul 15, 1999 at 09:13:36AM -0400, Kurt Donath wrote:
> 
> I haven't heard a thing about XLink for a long time.  Does anyone have
> any insight into what's going on?

  We hope to a a public version RSN, in the meantime feedback on XPath and
XPointer will be appreciated,

   yours,

Daniel

W3C XML linking WG staff contact

-- 
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes  | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind,
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe.

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Thu Jul 15 15:43:08 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFB1@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> So, my question is should CDATA sections in an XML document 
> be considered structural, and warrant being displayed in an XML editor

CDATA boundaries are not part of the infoset so they should not be treated
as information-bearing by an XML application. But XML editors like to
preserve non-information-bearing aspects of your document, assuming that if
you chose to use CDATA rather than character entities, say, then you did so
for a reason and would like the document left that way.

Mike Kay

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From tom.otvos at pervasive.com  Thu Jul 15 16:20:27 1999
From: tom.otvos at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C8478@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Matt Sergeant [mailto:matt.sergeant@bbc.co.uk]
> 
> Sorry, I know this doesn't answer your question though, but 
> that's only
> because I didn't quite understand what you were saying. It 
> sounded as though
> you were saying that the XML editors (or your parser) 
> *weren't* preserving
> carriage returns in CDATA sections. Any editor that does this 
> should be
> thrown out IMHO - it's broken behaviour. Of course if that's 
> not what you're
> saying, perhaps you could be a little more clear for me.
> 

Yes, it is the parser (expat) that does not preserve carriage returns, a
fact which, while inconvenient, is consistent with the XML spec on
end-of-line handling (section 2.11).

Tom Otvos
Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc.
"Try not! Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jul 15 17:45:45 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990715084648.012477b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

At 08:54 AM 7/15/99 -0400, Tom Otvos wrote:
>So, my question is should CDATA sections in an XML document be considered
>structural, and warrant being displayed in an XML editor

No and yes.  I.e. I think ]]> is effectively identical
to <x> for all practical purposes.  Having said that, I think it
might be a very desirable feature in an XML editor to preserve my
CDATA sections where possible. -Tim


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jul 15 18:00:14 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:53 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE2E@THOR>

This has been a real problematic area in earlier attempts to transfer
engineering information between applications.  In a lot of the STEP
proposals (I'm not a STEP expert so please forgive any inaccuracies), there
was a desire/requirement/need to preserve exactly the user's specification
of the value that was done at the expense of engineering apps that primarily
just wanted the value in SI.  

Unfortunately, that meant that one had to include in the STEP file all the
unit strings and their conversion factors to some base unit (and hope the
file had some unit you could recognize as your base unit).  I gets really
complicated really quickly.  Like in your example, most people would
interpret mph as miles per hour, but somebody else could use it for meters
per hour (or metres per hour).  In complex dimensions, you could have
thousands of reasonable permutations (whether to use dots between units,
slashes or -1 for units in the denominator)

Since in the types of apps I deal with only a very small fraction of "data"
is user provided (and hence would have some value to preserve what the user
type) and most of it is calculated (typically in SI or close to SI units),
my approach is to have an attribute for the value in a fixed SI unit (and in
a schema world it would be associated with a datatype that specified the
unit) and if you want to preserve the users input then use the elements text
data.  So for speed it would be something like 

He was travelling at 3600 kph

where value is defined as always being in meters per second.  In schemas,
I'd have a velocity datatype that was defined as being in meters per second.

If you though it could add value, you could tag the unit.

3600 kph

This also allows you to support really fuzzy user specified values that you
could never hope to resolve by parsing the human presentation.

You know how cold it feels on a brisk fall
morning   

(289K, 16C, 59F for those of you who don't think that Kelvin is the
temperature unit of choice)


-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Bourret [mailto:rbourret@ito.tu-darmstadt.de]
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:55 AM
To: 'XML Dev'
Subject: RE: Units of measurement?


Jeffrey E. Sussna wrote:

> Does the XSchema datatypes spec support the notion of units of 
measurement?
> In other words:
>
> 	element "x" is of type "speed", which can be in "mph" or "kph"
>
> A potential representation of this might be:
>
> 	200

Sort of.  What you can actually do is define a speed data type and say that 
the *units* attribute (not the x element) is of type speed -- that is, its 
value is either "mph" or "kph".  You can also say that the x element must 
have a units attribute.

Note that you can also do this specific example with DTDs, by defining 
units as an attribute with an enumerated type.

(Nit: XSchema is the name of the predecessor of DDML. I believe you are 
referring to XML Schemas -- the schema language being developed by the W3C. 
 Given the amount of confusion over these names, I'm beginning to wonder if 
we shouldn't donate the XSchema name to the W3C...)

-- Ron Bourret


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jul 15 18:28:33 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE2F@THOR>

And to actually respond to the initial question instead of rambling.  There
is not a mechanism in the current XML Schema Working Group Grafts to specify
the units for a particular data type, though I would assume that that could
be included in the textual description of the data type that should come
when they address documentation elements (which was a to be addressed issue
in the first draft).

Something like


	
	
		This datatype represents a unit expressed in meters per
second.	



I definitely do not think that it should be up to the XML parser to try to
make sense of a string like "300 mph" and come up with an SI value.

I have expressed in a message on the XML Schema email archive (sorry don't
have URL, dated July 1 with the subject "Datatype comments") a desire to
have a mechanism to associate a data type with extended information that
might include unit related information.

If unit information was to be included in schemas, it would only be used by
documentation engines and applications, not by parsers.  I'd see something
like


	
	
	
	
		This datatype represents a unit expressed in meters per
second.	


If this is thought to be a reasonable and desirable addition to schemas, I
wouldn't mind putting together a message on the dimensional units schema
that I use.

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From paul at prescod.net  Thu Jul 15 19:20:26 1999
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFB1@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>
Message-ID: <378DEE23.6F186955@prescod.net>

Kay Michael wrote:
> 
> CDATA boundaries are not part of the infoset so they should not be treated
> as information-bearing by an XML application.  But XML editors like to
> preserve non-information-bearing aspects of your document, assuming that if
> you chose to use CDATA rather than character entities, say, then you did so
> for a reason and would like the document left that way.

I guess it depends on your definition of the word "application". Is it
really the case that XML editors and XML databases are not "applications"
because they choose to preserve details that most XML consumers would
consider irrelevant?

I consider it a limitation of the infoset that it supports some types of
applications and not others. It may still be rectified. The spec. already
has a concept of optional information items so I would expect (e.g.) CDATA
and unknown entity reference to fall into that category.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself
 http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco

To me programming is more than an important practical art. It is
also a gigantic undertaking in the foundations of knowledge.
	- Grace Hopper

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From paul at prescod.net  Thu Jul 15 19:31:25 1999
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C8477@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com>
Message-ID: <378DE96B.940FC8E@prescod.net>

Tom Otvos wrote:
> 
> 
> So, my question is should CDATA sections in an XML document be considered
> structural, and warrant being displayed in an XML editor, or should they be
> considered more like "parser control" and be silently interpreted in the
> same way that entity encodings are?  Although we cannot change the way the
> current crop of XML editors behaves, it would be nice to know what the
> conventional wisdom *thinks* should be happening.

I'm confident that our XML 1.0 intent was that CDATA sections should be
even less "physical" than entity references. They were just a markup
convenience with no semantic significance. But XML editors are somewhat of
a funny tool category. They are supposed to hide structure from you, "but
not really." The problem is that different authors have different levels
of interest in the details of the encoding. Because of this, the DOM tends
to err on the side of providing more information rather than less. In
other words, it requires the parser to tell the application more than has
historically been the case.

The long and short of it is that I don't think that there is anymore a
real distinction between the "physical" and "logical"aspects of a
document. You need to actually know what your downstream apps will
consider significant. If you don't want to think about your downstream
apps then of course you can just presume that everything is significant. 

The ISO world has a concept of "grove plan." This is a formal declaration
of the sensitivity of a particular application. By applying a grove plan
to a grove (for instance in a grove API or in a query/address) you can
reduce the sensitivity of an application and thus make (e.g.) CDATA and
entity reference nodes disappear. In the W3C world we just hard-code
sensitivity into our APIs and query/addressing languages. So the DOM is
hard-coded to support CDATA and entity references but XPath is hardcoded
NOT to. Yes, that's a little confusing.

If you could apply a grove plan to your text editor then YOU could decide
whether CDATA sections are structural or not for your application.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself
 http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco

To me programming is more than an important practical art. It is
also a gigantic undertaking in the foundations of knowledge.
	- Grace Hopper

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Thu Jul 15 21:02:31 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFB1@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <378DEE23.6F186955@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <378E30BB.EAC10E73@locke.ccil.org>

Paul Prescod wrote:

> I consider it a limitation of the infoset that it supports some types of
> applications and not others. It may still be rectified. The spec. already
> has a concept of optional information items so I would expect (e.g.) CDATA
> and unknown entity reference to fall into that category.

And so they do.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jul 15 22:11:21 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Units of Measure
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE35@THOR>

Curt Arnold wrote:

He was travelling at 3600 kph

Curt Arnold meant:

He was travelling at 3.6 kph

What is three orders of magnitude between friends.  (I was intending the
attribute value to be in m/s, did the conversion to s to hr, but forgot the
m to km).



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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Fri Jul 16 00:33:53 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: XML Forms and data entry
References: <01BECEA9.CD477600@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>
Message-ID: <002501becf12$55c6b780$334ffea9@litebook>

On reflection the plan is:
Yes an overall  Xchema file for the sole purpose of providing names of
fields and a hierachy for records
other xchemas for each record type and in some cases different ones for new
record as from edit record.

The xschema has some additional detail like Position and tab order, field
size where necessary, some event indications like OnEnter go to some other
field, etc... bits taken from XFA or XFDL or XSL, because this will be local
with out the intent to distribute it really does not matter if it does not
conform to any standard.

The standard parts come when the Data and XSL scripts are merged to produce
a HTML file

It is quite difficult having an idea and trying to have a vision for it when
there is such a confusion of standards. Worse still there is not much
prototyping for applications in XML available.

The whole exercise becomes fraught with possible dangers, a wrong assumption
early, a miscalculation, a over defined start could make it impossible or
difficult. Beauty in in simplicity and this can be more difficult than
expected.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ronald Bourret 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 6:07 PM
Subject: RE: XML


> Trevor Croll wrote:
>
> > For about 4 months I have been looking for ways of  XML ing the software
> I was > planning to write. My conclusions may be of interest to others.
> >
> >
> > My conclusion as how I should write my application is:
> > for data definitions I start with a name space file ie namespace.xml
> > For screen style sheet I may need another namespace file to help the
user
> choose > appearance.
>
> What is a "namespace file"?  Do you mean a schema file?
>
> -- Ron Bourret
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
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>
>


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From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp  Fri Jul 16 03:32:37 1999
From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: '99 XML WWW page contest in Japan
Message-ID: <199907160135.AA01116@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp>

I am happy to announce '99 XML WWW page contest in Japan.  
The application deadline is 1 October 1999.  The lucky winner 
will get 500,000 yen (1 USD = 120 yen) on 12 November 1999.

Anybody can apply, but the XML WWW page and its documetation 
*must* be written in Japanese.  If written in other languages, 
they will not be reviewed.

More about this contest, see the announcement (in XML!) at:

	http://www.xml.gr.jp/contest/

Makoto
 
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
 
Tel: +81-44-812-7230   Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp

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From paul at prescod.net  Fri Jul 16 03:39:49 1999
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFB1@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <378DEE23.6F186955@prescod.net> <378E30BB.EAC10E73@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <378E700C.B0463EF@prescod.net>

John Cowan wrote:
> 
> Paul Prescod wrote:
> 
> > I consider it a limitation of the infoset that it supports some types of
> > applications and not others. It may still be rectified. The spec. already
> > has a concept of optional information items so I would expect (e.g.) CDATA
> > and unknown entity reference to fall into that category.
> 
> And so they do.

I don't see CDATA information items in the latest spec. I see this:

"3.An indication of whether the character was included literally, as a
character reference, as part of a CDATA section, or through one of the
predefined XML entities."

How do I know when one CDATA section begins and another ends? Will I have
the same problem with entity references?

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself
 http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco

To me programming is more than an important practical art. It is
also a gigantic undertaking in the foundations of knowledge.
	- Grace Hopper

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Fri Jul 16 11:12:26 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFBB@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> my approach is to have an attribute for the value in a fixed 
> SI unit...  So for speed it would be something like 
> 
> He was travelling at 3600 kph
> 
Surely the SI unit of velocity is metres per second? And the correct
abbreviation is ms-1? [how do you put that in an attribute?]

Mike Kay

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Fri Jul 16 14:26:12 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Yet another stupid namespace question...
Message-ID: <01BECF97.D3435850@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

This problem is not limited to xmlns attributes that declare the default 
namespace. It also occurs when a default value is declared for a prefixed 
xmlns attributes. That is, how do I find the namespace used by the element 
foo:A, where xmlns:foo is declared as fixed in the schema and might have 
changed from its previous declaration?

A partial solution is as follows:

1) When reading the schema(s), keep a list of all element declarations that 
declare defaults for xmlns and xmlns:xxx attributes along with the prefixes 
and namespace URIs they use.

2) For each element you encounter, check if its base (unprefixed) name 
appears in this list. Note that a single name may occur multiple times in 
the list.

3) If the element is in the list, check if its prefix (or lack thereof) 
matches any of the prefixes stored in the list for that element.
a) If so, get the relevant namespace URI, construct the qualified name, and 
proceed normally.
b) If not, then the element belongs to the namespace according to the 
current value of its prefix (or lack thereof). If there is no match for the 
prefix (or lack thereof), then an error occurs, as this is a 
must-use-schemas scenario and no schema can be located because we don't 
have a namespace URI.

Two things to note:

1) This solution does not work in all cases. In particular, two different 
schemas can define the same prefix (or no prefix) for the same element type 
name.  There is no way I can see to resolve this situation.

2) The same process applies for prefixed attribute names, where you must 
search through the default prefixes declared by the element to which the 
attribute belongs to be sure you are resolving the attribute's prefix 
correctly. The process does not apply to unprefixed attribute names, as 
these are never part of any namespace.

A final comment is that I suspect that there should be some sort of 
requirement in the schema spec that the default value of xmlns attributes 
must match the schemaIdentity value declared in the schema.  I haven't 
fully thought this through, but it seems odd to allow a namespace URI to be 
something other than the schemaIdentity, since namespace URIs are used to 
locate schemas.

-- Ron Bourret

> ----------
> From: 	Dean Roddey
> Sent: 	Wednesday, July 07, 1999 1:56 AM
> To: 	xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Cc: 	Mike Pogue; heninger@us.ibm.com
> Subject: 	Yet another stupid namespace question...
>
> Ok, so I'm looking forward to implementing Schema support in XML4C/J, and
> maybe I'm missing something, but I want to make sure.
>
> Ok, lets say we have an element declaration, in Schema terms in
> this case so
> it defines both the URI and the name of the element being declared.
>
> Now, I see an element in the document content that I need to scan and
> process the attributes of. But, lets say that one of the attributes of 
the
> element, one that defines the default namespace of that element, is
> defaulted in in the element declaration's attribute list.
>
> I have to look up the element declaration in order to validate the
> attributes and/or fault in defaulted and fixed attributes.
> However, since we
> are now in the new Schema world, I have to know the full {uri}name form 
of
> the name in order to look it up, because its no longer a lexical lookup 
in
> the Schema world.
>
> But, I cannot look up the element declaration until I know the URI that
> applies to the element name. If the element name has no prefix, then it
> falls under the default namespace (which can be set by one of its own
> attributes.) But, since I cannot know the name of the element until I can
> resolve the URI it belongs to, I cannot know whether there is a
> defaulted or
> fixed attribute of that element which might set the default namespace
> (because I cannot look up the element declaration.)
>
> So, am I missing something or is this a Catch-22? Does this mean
> that Schema
> cannot allow defaulting or fixing of namespace attributes because
> of the new
> need to to logical lookup of element declarations, instead of lexical?
>
> --------------------------
> Dean Roddey
> The CIDLib Class Libraries
> Charmed Quark Software
> droddey@charmedquark.com
> http://www.charmedquark.com
>
> "100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it"
>
>
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From amitr at abinfosys.com  Fri Jul 16 14:43:52 1999
From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Escape mechanism using release character
Message-ID: <02bd01becf89$36dee8c0$0c01a8c0@abiwebserver>

Hello,

Why is it that the well known escape mechanism of using a 
release character (like '\') for escaping special characters 
(eg. '<','&') not used in XML?
for eg. 
In order to input data "5<8"(without quotes) in
XML element, it is currently represented something like:
5<8

Why not escape '<' using '\<' so that we get 
5\<8?

Thanks in advance for any replies,

Amit Rekhi,
Software Engineer,
A.B. Infosys Private Limited,
B-102, Gulmohar Park,
New Delhi - 110049,
INDIA.
Tel: +91-11-6512816,6512822,6968976
Fax: +91-11-6518873
Website: http://www.abinfosys.com
EMail: amit@abinfosys.com

Note: Not related to Infosys Technologies Limited








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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jul 16 15:09:20 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Escape mechanism using release character
In-Reply-To: Amit Rekhi's message of Fri, 16 Jul 1999 18:16:24 +0530
Message-ID: <199907161311.OAA15058@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

> Why is it that the well known escape mechanism of using a 
> release character (like '\') for escaping special characters 
> (eg. '<','&') not used in XML?

Because XML is a subset of SGML which does not use such a mechanism.

If XML had been a new system designed from scratch, it might well have
been much simpler in many respects.  On the other hand, it would
probably not have succeeded.

-- Richard

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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Fri Jul 16 15:26:33 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: Yet another stupid namespace question...
Message-ID: <01BECFA0.522FE4A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

Ron Bourret wrote:

> A partial solution is as follows:
>
> 1) When reading the schema(s), keep a list of all element declarations 
that
> declare defaults for xmlns and xmlns:xxx attributes along with the 
prefixes
> and namespace URIs they use.
>
> 2) For each element you encounter, check if its base (unprefixed) name
> appears in this list. Note that a single name may occur multiple times in 
> the list.
>
> 3) If the element is in the list, check if its prefix (or lack thereof)
> matches any of the prefixes stored in the list for that element.
> a) If so, get the relevant namespace URI, construct the qualified name, 
and
> proceed normally.
> b) If not, then the element belongs to the namespace according to the
> current value of its prefix (or lack thereof). If there is no match for 
the
> prefix (or lack thereof), then an error occurs, as this is a
> must-use-schemas scenario and no schema can be located because we don't
> have a namespace URI.

On further reflection, I've realized that this solution is broken. For 
example, suppose I define an element A which sets the default namespace to 
http://foo and that I define an element B in the content of element A. Now 
suppose you like my element A and incorporate it into your element C, which 
has a different element B in its content.  Suppose also that your element B 
defines the default namespace as http://bar.

Written with explicit namespace declarations, I can tell the difference 
between my B and your B:


   
      
   
   


Written with implicit namespace declarations (see below), my algorithm 
breaks: when the processor encounters my B, it will search the list of 
elements that declare default namespaces, find your B, and mistakenly 
report an error.


   
      
   
   


Note that it is not possible to write a DTD for the implicit case, as it 
requires two different definitions for element B. (I believe it is possible 
to write a schema for this case.)

-- Ron Bourret


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From ben at mitra.com  Fri Jul 16 15:49:36 1999
From: ben at mitra.com (Ben Hui)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:54 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <000701becf92$70fff4f0$9607a8c0@mitra.com>

Hi All,

I am interested in studying and up and down of technologies. I just read the
article in XML.COM
http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/07/schemas/index.html
about how good XML schema is. They mention that the only strength of DTD
over XML schema is it's hugh deployment base and amount of supporting tools.

For those DTD lovers (if any exist), do you really think XML Schema is a
master over DTD? Anything you see DTD is doing better than XML Schema?
Anything XML Schema just doesn't do right?

Besides, when XML Schema rules, will DTD be migrated to XML Schema smoothly?

thanks. good day.

Ben




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From Eddie at acadsoft.com  Fri Jul 16 16:46:53 1999
From: Eddie at acadsoft.com (Eddie Shipman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Create Node Problem
Message-ID: 

It will be in response to another record from the database 
being posted to the XML file.

I am building this file to be sent via stream to a special 
web server to parse it into Oracle so I wanted to use their 
XML format as shown below.

When I do this: {Delphi code}

      oXMLDoc := CreateOleObject('Microsoft.XMLDOM');
      oRoot := oXMLDoc.CreateNode('element', 'ROWSET','');
      oXMLDoc.AppendChild(oRoot);
      RS.MoveFirst;
      x := 1;
      while not RS.EOF do
      begin
        oNode := oXMLDoc.CreateElement('ROW');
        oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.AppendChild(oNode);
        oAttr := oXMLDoc.CreateAttribute('ID');
        oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttributeNode(oAttr);
        oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttribute('ID',IntToStr(x));


it places the attribute on the  line when it should be on the
 line i.e. 

How would I get the attribute on the NODE like this ?



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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Fri Jul 16 17:04:27 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Escape mechanism using release character
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFBC@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> Why is it that the well known escape mechanism of using a 
> release character (like '\') for escaping special characters 
> (eg. '<','&') not used in XML?

XML is based on SGML, whose escape convention of "&" probably predates the C
convention of "\".

In those days "\" was a very poor choice, because it is one of the
characters in ISO 646 that can have national variants. Now that national
variants of ISO 646 have fallen into disuse (except for ASCII of course)
this would be less of a problem.

Mike Kay

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Fri Jul 16 18:51:03 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE3C@THOR>

I had a mental lapse and did the conversion wrong, which I already confessed
to the xml-dev mailing list.

What I should have typed was:

He was travelling at 3.6 kph

The interpretation here is that the schema author defined the value
attribute of the velocity tag as having a velocity datatype derived from
real that was always interpreted as being the velocity meters per second.
The specific unit is the schema designers choice, though, of course. There
is nothing that the document author can do to change the interpretation of
the attribute. The document author could put just about anything in the
element content, but a search engine that was trying to find any documents
that mention greater than a specific value wouldn't have to try to convert
velocities to a common basis.  Information transfer can occur because the
schema author unabiguously defined the interpretation of the attribute.  For
example, it would be real easy to color code the following fragment based on
the velocities.

He was travelling at 3.6 kph, somewhere
between a leisurely stroll and a brisk walk.

Again, this is a pattern that I have found useful that has the ability to
preserve the specific textual representation a user entered while allowing
applications that don't need to process that information to be able to deal
with the ambiguities of unit conversion.  Other than it would be nice to be
able to extract the unit from the attribute definition in the schema, it
does not require or suggest any changes to any established XML technologies.
The initial message that started this hinted that xml should be much more
aware of units.

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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Fri Jul 16 19:25:38 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B16@MDYNYCMSX1>

Ben Hui wrote:

>do you really think XML Schema is a
>master over DTD? 

The W3C Schema proposal is an in-progress moving target. In pursuit of
its goal of improving on XML 1.0 DTDs, the one public draft available so
far specifies many new features, and the design of these features is
bound to change as the spec evolves toward Recommendation status. XML
1.0 DTD syntax is a stable standard that, considering its roots in SGML,
has been used and implemented for years, and that is a huge advantage.

>Anything XML Schema just doesn't do right?

Discussion of these issues is what drives the revisions that will happen
between now and Recommendation status. The archives of the public
discussion are at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/.

>Besides, when XML Schema rules, will DTD be migrated to XML Schema
smoothly?

As far as I can tell, the W3C XML Schema proposal includes all the
features of XML 1.0 DTDs, so it should be possible to automate migration
of DTDs. Whether W3C XML Schemas completely replace XML 1.0 DTDs after
the Schema proposal becomes a Recommendation is a tougher question.

Bob DuCharme       www.snee.com/bob         see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML:
The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall.

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jul 16 22:16:25 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B16@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: <199907162018.QAA09718@hesketh.net>

At 01:29 PM 7/16/99 -0400, DuCharme, Robert wrote:
>As far as I can tell, the W3C XML Schema proposal includes all the
>features of XML 1.0 DTDs, so it should be possible to automate migration
>of DTDs. Whether W3C XML Schemas completely replace XML 1.0 DTDs after
>the Schema proposal becomes a Recommendation is a tougher question.

Nothing in XML seems to happy as quickly as I once thought it would.

I'd say DTDs have at least another few years of active use in them.  I
suspect (though it isn't certain) that while they're less powerful than
schemas, they involve less processing as well.  For some situations, even
'non-legacy' ones, that may insure a very long life.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jul 16 22:33:10 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <199907162018.QAA09718@hesketh.net>
References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B16@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: <199907162035.QAA10337@hesketh.net>

At 04:21 PM 7/16/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
>Nothing in XML seems to happy as quickly as I once thought it would.

Hmmm... must be something in my coffee.  I definitely meant 'happen'.  This
is a pretty interesting image, though.


Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jul 17 01:37:46 1999
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
References: <199907162018.QAA09718@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <378FC1C3.4149@hiwaay.net>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> 
> I'd say DTDs have at least another few years of active use in them.  I
> suspect (though it isn't certain) that while they're less powerful than
> schemas, they involve less processing as well.  For some situations, even
> 'non-legacy' ones, that may insure a very long life.

Since XML schemas and other parts of the standards start from an XML 
DTD, I suspect they will live a while.  OTOH:

1.  Use is driven in part by tools and in part by the functionality 
of tools (what do you need to do, what can you do that with).

2.  Use is driven by the availability of tools and ease of obtaining
them 
(can i get them when I need them, can i afford to get them).

3.  Use is driven by what I know how to do or what I can learn in the 
time available (do i know i need to know, do i know where to go to find
out).

A lot of the tools used in day to day industrial computer science are 
downloaded from www.microsoft.com.  No flames; just a fact for many of
us.  
As long as we need to use schemas for tasks such as loading a drop box, 
can do that with the functions provided in the object model, can get 
an implemented object model that does that for free, understand that 
we can do that using an XML schema easily but not so easily with an 
ISO 8879 DTD, and know that the tools and tutorials for doing that 
can be found at www.microsoft.com or wherever our local environment 
predisposes us to look, then I would say the odds of ISO 
8879 DTDs development remaining a vital art for practicing markup
developers 
are low.

Pity.  They are much easier to read.  Cool, OTOH, because I need the
added 
functionality of the schemas.  Que sera.  Be attached to people; 
not technologies.

len


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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Sat Jul 17 01:30:24 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML (Data Entry / edit screen)
References: <000e01bece3b$ad84b3a0$334ffea9@litebook> <378EF6BD.9C2A7DE7@ua.es>
Message-ID: <00ba01becfe3$02f6b100$334ffea9@litebook>

I have only just started getting some code together, I suggest you have a
look at wxWindows where there is references to wxHtml which I was going to
use. Most of what I will be doing will be from other's code, IBM have put
source code to a Parser on the WEB, All that is available has to be sorted
through and then integrated etc... for XML

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/julian.smart/wxwin/

----- Original Message -----
From: Cristobal Galiano Fernandez 
To: Trevor Croll 
Sent: Friday, July 16, 1999 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: XML (Data Entry / edit screen)


> Can you share with us your generic XML/XSL code for Data Entry / Edit
> Screen.
> We are beginners in this techologie
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Crist?bal
>
>
>
> Trevor Croll wrote:
>
> > For about 4 months I have been looking for ways of XML ing the
> > software I was planning to write. My conclusions may be of interest to
> > others.  My conclusion as how I should write my application is:for
> > data definitions I start with a name space file ie namespace.xmlFor
> > screen style sheet I may need another namespace file to help the user
> > choose appearance. I then take XSchema, make some additions to it for
> > input fields, field lengths, field types etc.....and develop a data
> > entry interface that obeys this "new enhanced Xschema" This was the
> > user can define their own fields and do a straight forward data entry
> > / edit screen that would look similar to Access forms. I then use XSL
> > definitions to "merge" the data with the XSL to produce HTML which in
> > the short term I can use Internet explorer for viewing and printing
> > until I have produced my own viewer. For reporting I need XQL which
> > can run down a nindex file and pull in all items that obeys that index
> > and examine them for the data in them. This builds an XML data string
> > which then when an XSL style sheet defn is applied "merges" the data
> > into a HTML document. For internet email transmissions there is two
> > options: sent the HTML file, or send the XML data and XSL style sheet
> > definitions so the package at the other end can produce the HTML
> > view. The implications of this approach are:Must constrain all
> > functions to produce acceptable HTMLdo not need XFA, XFDL, or any
> > other not yet recommended standard. Have to produce an XSchema of my
> > own, but since it is only used in my package it does not matter if it
> > does not conform to any standards.
>
>


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From ricko at allette.com.au  Sat Jul 17 09:12:31 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Escape mechanism using release character
Message-ID: <000c01bed024$7a14b4d0$61f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: Richard Tobin 

>> Why is it that the well known escape mechanism of using a
>> release character (like '\') for escaping special characters
>> (eg. '<','&') not used in XML?
>
>Because XML is a subset of SGML which does not use such a mechanism.
>
>If XML had been a new system designed from scratch, it might well have
>been much simpler in many respects.  On the other hand, it would
>probably not have succeeded.

Actually, SGML does have such a mechanism: the Markup Suppress
Character. This could have been defined as "\" for XML.  I think I
remember Charles Goldfarb even raised this issue for XML during its
development.

The reasons against it include these:
    1) it creates three kinds of delimiting: by CDATA sections, by
entity
references, and by markup suppression. XML tried to remove duplication
unless there was a good reason;

    2) programmers have a lot of difficulty coping with delimiters
(witness
the appalling support for correct delimiters in first generation XML
applications);

    3) HTML and almost all SGML document s do not use this mechanism, so
you would be building in incompatability;

    4) it creates another character with a special meaning that must be
delimited:
as well as & and <, parsers must look for / and people must delimit it
in text.

    5) the character "\" is problematic for Japanese in that the ASCII
code point
for that character is used for the Yen character in ShiftJIS:  if we
used that
character, then it would rule out the class of dumb applications that
just understand
the ASCII codepoints delimiter recognition and pass every other byte
through;

    6) the character "\" is problematic in Taiwanese encodings, in that
it is used
as a codepoint as part of Big5 characters: if we used that character, it
would rule
out the class of dumb applications that just understand the ASCII code
values of
delimiters and pass everything else through (there is already a
potential for this
problem with [ and ] as used used in CDATA sections, but "\" would be
far worse).

    7) \ is often used in programming languages as an escape. As you
might know
from shell languages, double delimiting is really tricky, and if you
need to triple
delimit (e.g. use "\\\\" to represent "\\" to represent \ in output) it
gets complicated).
So it is common practise for markup languages to use different delimiter
delimiters
than the delimiter delimiters of the embedded language; similarly it is
common
for XML processing languages to use different delimiter delimiters: e.g.
OmniMark
uses "%" no "\" or entities.

    8) Also, I think there is a good reason in that \ might encourage
the view that
XML documents are delimited merely to fit into a pipeline of processes:
Microsoft
adopted this approach for handling XML documents with CSS stylesheets in
IE5,
which is why &? gets treated like a processing instruction. But this
is wrong
behaviour; in XML data is not tailored to a process, you declare what
you want.
So if I say &?  I do not want a processing instruction start at my
output:
XSL gets this very right in its approach.

Rick Jelliffe



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From ricko at allette.com.au  Sat Jul 17 09:59:03 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <002801bed02a$f3445c60$61f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: Ben Hui 


 >I am interested in studying and up and down of technologies. I just
read the
>article in XML.COM
>http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/07/schemas/index.html
>about how good XML schema is. They mention that the only strength of
DTD
>over XML schema is it's hugh deployment base and amount of supporting
tools.

It gather that xml.com has an editorial policy against DTDs (or at
least, in favour
of schemas in instance notations, which should not be the same thing).
They are
a news and information service, not a technology evaluation service.

>For those DTD lovers (if any exist), do you really think XML Schema is
a
>master over DTD? Anything you see DTD is doing better than XML Schema?
>Anything XML Schema just doesn't do right?

The current XML Schema structure draft is so flawed it looks more
bizarre each time
I read it. But it is a great effort to even get as far as a draft on
time, which was their aim,
apparantly.

Rather than saying "DTDs good...Schemas bad" or vice versa, we have to
think of a syntax as a publication for a particular purpose of some
structured
information set.

So the question becomes:
    * what purposes are DTD syntax good for?
    * what purposes are the information set expressable in DTDs good
for?
    * what purposes are instance syntax good for?
    * what purposes are the information set expressable in instance
syntaxes (in particular,
XML Schemas) good for?

This in turn perhaps boils into two questions:
    1) When is a terse syntax good?
    2) When are DTD structures good enough?

I can think of two important cases for the first:
    a) for WWW distribution: a schema in instance syntax can be 100s of
K in size, and dwarf the document.
    b) for human communication in text, DTD syntax (and content model
syntax in particular) is very handy. I can write (x, z, (z|x|y)?, a,
(b*, d), e, f) on one line but it might take a page in a schema
language.  You can see in XML Authority that they still use regular
expression syntax as one possibility for data entry.

For the second, I can think of three cases:
    a) for many kinds of literature and flat databases containing text,
the DTD information set is enough to create structured editors and
perform validation.
    b) DTD structures may be provide adequate client-side validation of
data
    c) it is so much easier to write stylesheets if you know all the
contexts in which an element can appear; the drive to split element type
(content model) from its name (i.e., to allow one content model in one
context, but another in a different context or namespace) will mean that
stylesheets will  become more complicated: the writer of the stylesheet
will have to be more careful to cope with elements that appear in "open"
content models.

One object I, and others, have with the current XML Schema draft (apart
from conflicting
with XML 1.0 and XML Namespaces) is that it barely supports more kinds
of document
structures that XML does: it still uses the content model as its basic
model, rather than
systematically generalizing it to look at regular expressions on trees,
weak validations,
and anonymous content types.

Also, in the absense of published test cases, it is a little
difficult to see what kind of documents they are really trying to
support: it would be
nice if they said, for example, "XML Schemas will be able to express all
constraints
required for all forms of RDF".

>Besides, when XML Schema rules, will DTD be migrated to XML Schema
smoothly?

No, because DTDs include non-schema information: entity declarations in
particular.
So I think claims that a future XML 1.x will not have DTDs should be
regarded extremely
sceptically.  But I think everyone is excited about having an
instance-based syntax for element declarations: it should make many
things easier.

I predict that some vendors will force the issue: they will provide
"XML" tools which do
not allow DTDs or alternatives. This will trap people into the schema
syntaxes allowed by
that vendor.

The Schema Working Group should be looking at how to make a world in
which XML Schemas are available to do the things that DTDs do poorly,
not at replacing DTDs IMHO. The low priority of being XML and Namespace
compliant shown in the schema draft may show the mindset at work; they
see replacement and forced standardization as being more important than
augmentation and a richness of choice.

If you are interested in Schemas in general, I have a series of articles
on alternative schema systems at
http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/schemas.html

Rick Jelliffe





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From simpson at polaris.net  Sat Jul 17 16:33:19 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <002801bed02a$f3445c60$61f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990717103438.009b29a0@nexus.polaris.net>

At 04:04 PM 07/17/1999 +0800, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
	[very useful summary of DTDs, schemata, infoset...]
>and anonymous content types.

What's an "anonymous content type"?
==========================================================
John E. Simpson            | The secret of eternal youth
simpson@polaris.net        | is arrested development.
http://www.flixml.org      |  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au  Sat Jul 17 17:56:26 1999
From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Units of measurement?
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFBB@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3790A81D.3D3F9793@simdb.com>

Kay Michael wrote:

> > my approach is to have an attribute for the value in a fixed
> > SI unit...  So for speed it would be something like
> >
> > He was travelling at 3600 kph
> >
> Surely the SI unit of velocity is metres per second? And the correct
> abbreviation is ms-1? [how do you put that in an attribute?]

Actually km _is_ an SI unit (multipliers are part of the SI).  I also believe
hr is (though I can't claim this with the same degree of certainty).  It is also
permissible to use the division symbol '/', so:

  km/hr

is perfectly reasonable.  kph, on the other hand, most certainly isn't SI.

Furthermore, ms-1 represents the unit 'milliseconds to the
minus -1', hence the SI requirement to insert either spaces between unit
components or, preferably, a dot:

  m.s-1

As for their use in attributes, I seem to remember reading that the power
notation is never required.  It only keeps things tidy.  It really depends
on whether you are concerned to represent the format or the semantics,
though if formatting is the goal then I'd say it doesn't really belong in an
attribute anyway.


Cheers,
Marcelo



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From mookie at unagi.undef.com  Sun Jul 18 07:46:57 1999
From: mookie at unagi.undef.com (mookie@unagi.undef.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: emacs, xml-mode, and namespaces
In-Reply-To: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B16@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: 


I have this in my DTD ...
 
  
    

... which is fine, except that the colon in the attribute really confuses
emacs.  it tells me:

  Line 186 in "my-dtd" Name expected; at: :space (defa

has anyone dealt with this?

btw, I'm using xemacs-21.0


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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Sun Jul 18 20:21:30 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: 24 more hours for XML DevCon submissions
Message-ID: <199907181823.LAA11735@boethius.eng.sun.com>

The deadline for submissions to the XML Developers' Conference in
Montreal next month was Friday evening, July 16 (see the original
announcement below).  However, family affairs have kept me busy all
weekend and will continue to do so Monday, so since I won't be able to
start processing the proposals until Tuesday morning anyway, I'm
giving everyone until Monday night (July 19) to submit last-minute
entries.  See the announcement for instructions.

Jon

========================================================================

 Call for presentations: XML Developers' Conference 19-20 August

 The just-in-time proposal period for presentations at the GCA XML
 Developers' Conference in Montreal is now open.  Proposals will be
 accepted through 16 July 1999.  (IMPORTANT: read the section titled
 "Format for Submissions" before sending conference proposals.)

 If you are engaged in the development of any software that works with
 XML or with XML-related standards, in particular XSL, XLink, XPointer,
 DOM, RDF, SAX, CSS, or DSSSL, here is your chance to share your work
 with an audience that can understand and appreciate it.  Further
 details about the conference are given below.  Presenters get in free.

 Vendors of commercial tools can participate, but the presentations
 must be confined to the technical aspects of products currently in
 development.  Table space will be made available for the distribution
 of product announcements and commercial literature.

 There will also be room on the schedule for a couple of case studies
 or tendentious diatribes if their subjects and presenters seem
 interesting enough to warrant a place on the program.

 FORMAT FOR SUBMISSIONS

 As in previous years, the emphasis is on work in progress, so we're
 not looking for formal papers but just a couple of long paragraphs
 (300-500 words) submitted during the two-week period that begins now
 and ends July 16.  (If you have a formal paper appropriate for a
 genuine peer review process, the right place to present it is the GCA
 Markup Technologies conference in December, which coincidentally has
 the same cutoff date for submissions this year as the XML Developers'
 Conference -- July 16.  See http://www.gca.org/conf/mt99/callpart.htm
 for more about Markup Technologies '99.)

 It's OK if some details of your project are still not firm, but you
 must be careful to indicate those areas of uncertainty in your
 submission along with their current status and your expectations for
 their status at the time of the conference.  Remember, this is a
 conference for software developers; just observe the same general
 rules that you would follow in annotating code in progress.  The
 important thing is that you give enough information for us to decide
 which presentations to include and to tell other attendees what to
 expect.

 Proposals will be accepted only in plain text.  Proposals sent in
 HTML, XML, Word, PowerPoint, or other marked-up or proprietary codings
 will not even be acknowledged.  Proposals must be submitted directly
 by the person who will be presenting and not by a secretary, mentor,
 assistant, or marketing person.  All proposals should be sent to
 bosak@eng.sun.com and to no other address.  Proposals must be received
 on or before 16 July 1999.

 N.B.: Failure to follow these simple directions will be taken as
 evidence of a level of expertise too low for presenters at this
 conference.

 PRESENTATION FORMAT

 Presentations are expected to include slides and/or demonstrations
 displayed using an ordinary XGA (1024 x 768) projector.  Be prepared
 in the event that your submission is accepted to come to the
 conference with something that can be displayed this way and
 distributed electronically afterward.  Any reasonably common format
 from ASCII on up through HTML to XML with a CSS or XSL stylesheet (or
 sideways to PowerPoint or PDF) is acceptable as long as it can be made
 available right after the conference in a form that can be downloaded
 from the conference web site.

 Note that the files containing the presentation are not due until it
 is actually delivered.  Presenters at this conference can (and often
 do) revise their presentations right up until the moment they come to
 the podium.  It is assumed that presenters will bring their own laptop
 computers; if additional equipment or connections are needed, make
 that clear in your submission.

 ABOUT THE CONFERENCE

 The XML Developers' Conference is the fourth in a series of small but
 very successful informal technical gatherings that began with one-day
 events in Montreal (August 1997) and Seattle (March 1998) and were
 extended to the present two-day format in Montreal last summer (August
 1998).  As usual, the XML Developers' Conference will be held in Le
 Centre Sheraton and will be preceded in the same location by the
 two-day GCA Metastructures conference (formerly the GCA HyTime
 conference).  The Metastructures conference is designed for experts in
 hypertext linking and related technologies (topic maps, knowledge
 management, etc.) and concentrates on HyTime and the XLink/XPointer
 side of the XML family.  The four days of combined conferences are
 preceded by a day of GCA tutorials.  The schedule is as follows:

       16 August  Tutorials
    17-18 August  Metastructures '99
    19-20 August  XML Developers' Conference

 See http://www.gca.org for updates to the conference schedule.

 Like previous conferences in this series, the XML Developers'
 "UnConference(tm)" resists the bigger-is-better trend of recent years
 and maintains the concept of a single-track event featuring the cream
 of XML geekdom.  Attendees can expect two days of informal but
 intensely interesting presentations on fairly deep subjects in a
 locale noted for its French-Canadian culture, great food, low prices,
 and vibrant summer street life.

 The GCA Metastructures and XML Developers' conferences are cosponsored
 by the Organization for the Advancement of Structured Information
 Standards (OASIS) and the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C).  The OASIS
 cosponsorship is highlighted this year by the location of the OASIS
 Summer Workshop in the same hotel at the end of the previous week,
 August 11-13.  OASIS, which is rapidly achieving critical mass as a
 forum for the development of vendor-neutral applications of XML, has
 just changed its membership structure to allow participation by
 individuals.  The Summer Workshop in Montreal will be its first
 meeting under the new organization, and it promises to be a
 significant event for OASIS members.  See http://www.oasis-open.org/
 for more information about OASIS and http://xml.org/ for information
 on its recently announced XML.org initiative.

 In keeping with its emphasis on the latest developments, the schedule
 of speakers for the XML Developers' Conference will not be available
 until about three weeks before the conference itself.  Thus, a certain
 amount of faith is required when making travel arrangements.
 Participants in previous events in this series have found that faith
 well rewarded.

 Jon Bosak
 Chair, XML Developers' Conference

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jon Bosak, Online Information Technology Architect, Sun Microsystems
      901 San Antonio Road, MPK17-101, Palo Alto, California 94303
 ISO/IEC JTC1/SC34::NCITS V1::OASIS:: Chair, W3C XML Coordination Group
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
	     It is earlier than we think. -- Vannevar Bush
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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From droddey at charmedquark.com  Mon Jul 19 03:38:14 1999
From: droddey at charmedquark.com (Dean Roddey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:55 2004
Subject: Yet another stupid namespace question...
Message-ID: <000001bed188$f0f8fec0$6679a8c0@cqs_pdc.charmedquark.com>

>On further reflection, I've realized that this solution is broken. For
>example, suppose I define an element A which sets the default namespace to
>http://foo and that I define an element B in the content of element A. Now
>suppose you like my element A and incorporate it into your element C, which
>has a different element B in its content.  Suppose also that your element B
>defines the default namespace as http://bar.
>

I don't think there is any way to get around the problem really. I think
that the only scenario that will work is that Schema will have to disallow
defaulting or fixing xmlns attributes in the schema. The only other option,
chaning the namespace spec to not allow an element's attributes to affect
the element's prefix mapping. But then you couldn't set the root element's
prefix mapping. So I think its going to have to be the former solution,
unless someone else comes up with a slicker solution.

So far, I'm just continuing with this assumption, since its the only way I
can move forward. Other than this problem, all I've encountered so far are
just grunt work difficulties in creating a pluggable validator architecture
in which the scanner does not have to be aware of whether its dealing with a
DTD or a Schema.

--------------------------
Dean Roddey
The CIDLib Class Libraries
Charmed Quark Software
droddey@charmedquark.com
http://www.charmedquark.com

"100% Substance Free. Less Content, more cost. Just the way you like it"


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From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net  Mon Jul 19 04:58:44 1999
From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Serialization of XML Documents
Message-ID: <000001bed193$a121d7e0$0a000a0a@csg>

>Date: Tue, 13 Jul 1999 15:19:30 -0700
>From: yimin zhu 
>Subject: XML and Microsoft Word

>Does anybody know whether it is possible to serialize and deserialize data
>between an XML document and a Microsoft Word form?

Allaire, developer's of Cold Fusion and HomeSite have a solution that has
been
developed to address *serialized* data exchange. It is called Web
Distributed
Data eXchange and can be evaluated via http://www.wddx.org

Please comment back to this list if this solution is of use in this regard.

-- Regards
Clinton Gallagher
http://www.metromilwaukee.com



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From sunker at telkom.net  Mon Jul 19 07:13:21 1999
From: sunker at telkom.net (sunker@telkom.net)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Any body know how to made ascripting in xsl ?
Message-ID: <61D3A6AB14FED211856500001C055D9633DF7C@FS01>

i was tried to made a scripting in xsl.., but they (i.e 5.0) always give me
a report... script may not used in here.

but i used eval tag there were done success.

    Date()
    
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From vvz at mail.ru  Mon Jul 19 09:02:44 1999
From: vvz at mail.ru (Vladimir Zyrianov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Create Node Problem
References: 
Message-ID: <004501bed1b5$0df79e10$300a22c3@asbm.ru>

try this

          oNode.SetAttributeNode(oAttr);
          oNode.SetAttribute('ID',IntToStr(x));

not
>         oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttributeNode(oAttr);
>         oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttribute('ID',IntToStr(x));

Regards,
 Vladimir V. Zyrianov

----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie Shipman 
To: 'XML Dev' 
Sent: 16 ???? 1999 ?. 18:48
Subject: Create Node Problem


> It will be in response to another record from the database
> being posted to the XML file.
>
> I am building this file to be sent via stream to a special
> web server to parse it into Oracle so I wanted to use their
> XML format as shown below.
>
> When I do this: {Delphi code}
>
>       oXMLDoc := CreateOleObject('Microsoft.XMLDOM');
>       oRoot := oXMLDoc.CreateNode('element', 'ROWSET','');
>       oXMLDoc.AppendChild(oRoot);
>       RS.MoveFirst;
>       x := 1;
>       while not RS.EOF do
>       begin
>         oNode := oXMLDoc.CreateElement('ROW');
>         oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.AppendChild(oNode);
>         oAttr := oXMLDoc.CreateAttribute('ID');
>         oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttributeNode(oAttr);
>         oXMLDoc.DocumentElement.SetAttribute('ID',IntToStr(x));
>
>
> it places the attribute on the  line when it should be on the
>  line i.e. 
>
> How would I get the attribute on the NODE like this ?
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>
>
>


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From babakn at logictree.com  Mon Jul 19 14:15:16 1999
From: babakn at logictree.com (babak Nakhayi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Selecting an XML parser API in Java
Message-ID: <379317B2.85E68C20@logictree.com>

Dear Sirs,

I am going to use an API for writing my own XML parser( I want to write
a VoxML parser) . By now I have downloaded Microsoft, IBM and Oracle
APIs.
Does anyone know which one is better?

Thanks
Babak Nakhayi


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From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de  Mon Jul 19 15:02:50 1999
From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Selecting an XML parser API in Java
Message-ID: <01BED1F8.7D9C4340@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de>

babak Nakhayi wrote:

> To: 	XML developers; xml newsgroup; XML-Dev Mailing list
>
> I am going to use an API for writing my own XML parser( I want to write
> a VoxML parser) . By now I have downloaded Microsoft, IBM and Oracle
> APIs.
> Does anyone know which one is better?

1) Your best bet is to use a standard API.  The standard object-oriented 
API is the DOM (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-DOM-Level-1/).  The standard 
event-driven API is SAX (http://www.megginson.com/SAX/index.html).

2) Why do you want to write a parser?  Why not just use an existing parser?

3) majordomo@ic.ac.uk is the administrative address for XML-DEV. That is, 
it is used to subscribe and unsubscribe to the mailing list. To send 
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4) Generally, you should post questions to only one mailing list.  For 
questions like this, xml-dev (xml-dev@ic.ac.uk) is probably your best bet, 
since it is for developers.

-- Ron Bourret


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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Mon Jul 19 15:55:37 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: 
Message-ID: <37932EB9.D313010B@locke.ccil.org>

Matt Sergeant wrote:

> However I believe you're also slightly incorrect.
> XML parsers (at least expat does) convert CRLF combinations to their OS
> equivalents. On Windows this means leave as-is. On Unix this means convert
> to LF, on MacOS this means convert to #x12#x15 (I think - could be the other
> way around, I've never had to suffer at a Mac's hands).

The mac uses CR as line end.  But all XML processors must report
CR/LF, CR, and LF as LF, on all platforms.  (XML *applications*
can rewrite the LF as something else if they want, naturally.)

> At least this has
> been my experience.

I can't believe that expat violates the rules to such an extent.
-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Mon Jul 19 17:03:37 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: importing schemas: defaults?
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B26@MDYNYCMSX1>

The first example in section 4.6
(http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#composition-importRestrictions) shows the
following import element:

  

      
      

   

"According to the description, "all datatypes and achetypes that are
exported from 'otherschema', as well as the elements named 'myElement' and
'otherElement' are imported."

My question: if, as the DTD at
http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#normative-schemaDTD tells us, the default
value for the import element type's elementTypes attribute is "true,"
wouldn't all datatypes, archetypes, and element types be
imported already? Why should the example explicitly import the myElement and
otherElement element types? In fact, if the default values for the
archetypes and datatypes attributes are also true, wouldn't  an import
element of 

  

import all the datatypes, archetypes, and element types? Or is the example
just being explicit because the default values are still up in the air?

thanks,

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob             "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii


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From Satya.Rao at chase.com  Mon Jul 19 17:54:15 1999
From: Satya.Rao at chase.com (Satya.Rao@chase.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Financial reference data DTD
Message-ID: <852567B3.00510C34.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>

I intend to work on developing XML messages for financial reference data(Related
to Securities industries)
Does any one know of any existing DTD in this domain?

Thanks

Satya



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From sharris at primus.com  Mon Jul 19 18:20:49 1999
From: sharris at primus.com (Steve Harris)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: emacs, xml-mode, and namespaces
Message-ID: <228F2F40E87CD211ABA20008C7B13C5A01772583@exchange1.primus.com>

I ran into the same problem with psgml in XEmacs 21.0 ("20 minute to NIkko"
of Fri Mar 26 1999). psgml manifests as RCS tag of the form:
	;;; psgml.el --- SGML-editing mode with parsing support
	;; $Id: psgml.el,v 2.20 1996/11/20 18:39:14 lenst Exp $

	;; Copyright (C) 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 Lennart Staflin
	;; Copyright (C) 1992 Free Software Foundation, Inc.

	;; Author: Lennart Staflin 
	;; 	James Clark 
	;; Maintainer: Lennart Staflin 

I'm not sure if someone is working on actual namespace support, but it seems
that the problem is in how psgml-parse.el build up its syntax tables. It
doesn't accept the colon character in a name. I modified the appropriate
function so that colons would be tolerated if the document is noted as an
XML document (since I'm not sure if such a character would have been legal
in an SGML document).

Here's a short diff from psgml-parse.el:

==== begin psgml-parse.el.diff
291c291,294
< 	   "-.0123456789" "")
---
> ;; [seh]:modified to include XML Name characters
> 	   (if sgml-xml-p "_:-.0123456789" "-.0123456789") "")
> ;; original line:
> ;;	   "-.0123456789" "")
==== end psgml-parse.el.diff

All that is does is include the colon character in the proper circumstance.
Perhaps it would be better to 'concat' the colon into the default string
rather than duplicating most of it like I did here. Note that the "change"
includes a couple of additional comments noting what I changed and what the
original syntax entry was. Obviously, these comments can be stripped.

I'll copy this message to the noted maintainer of the package, Lennart
Staflin.


Steven Harris
sharris@primus.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	mookie@unagi.undef.com [SMTP:mookie@unagi.undef.com]
> Sent:	Saturday, July 17, 1999 10:49 PM
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	emacs, xml-mode, and namespaces
> 
> I have this in my DTD ...
>  
>   
>     
> 
> ... which is fine, except that the colon in the attribute really confuses
> emacs.  it tells me:
> 
>   Line 186 in "my-dtd" Name expected; at: :space (defa
> 
> has anyone dealt with this?
> 
> btw, I'm using xemacs-21.0

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From XML at adpersonnel.com  Mon Jul 19 20:43:26 1999
From: XML at adpersonnel.com (XML)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: XML Opportunities
Message-ID: <910239040D4CD211BF40006097A4BD660807A9@SERVER>

Would you like to help us move the overall XML vision for the Web a step
forward ? 

Would you like to join a team being led by one of the original designers
and champion of XML?

If you are innovative, passionate about structured information, and
entrepreneurial enough to take XML to the next level, contact us
immediately.

We are a Technical Search Firm fortunate enough to be associated with
this revolutionary endeavor. 

E-mail: xml@adpersonnel.com


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From ricker at xmls.com  Mon Jul 19 21:04:48 1999
From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: Financial reference data DTD
In-Reply-To: <852567B3.00510C34.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
Message-ID: <199907191907.PAA25907@mail.his.com>

XMLSolutions has worked on this and related projects. 

There is also the financial information exchange (FIXML), the financial
product markup language (FpML), the Securities Industry Middleware Council
efforts and others.

Jeffrey Ricker
XMLSolutions Corporation
ricker@xmls

At 10:42 AM 7/19/99 -0400, Satya.Rao@chase.com wrote:
>I intend to work on developing XML messages for financial reference
data(Related
>to Securities industries)
>Does any one know of any existing DTD in this domain?
>
>Thanks
>
>Satya
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> 


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From John.Martin at ncmail.net  Mon Jul 19 21:04:25 1999
From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: PCDATA
Message-ID: <37937748.5E7D954E@ncmail.net>

I have heard three different definitions of PCDATA so far.

1)  The book called XML: A Primer by Simon St. Laurent defines it as
follows:

"parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text that
will be examined by the parser for entities and markup.  Parsed
character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters; these need
to be represented by the & < and > entities, respectively.

2)  Microstar's Near & Far Designer defines it in its help screen as
follows:

"Processable Character Data (PCDATA)" - Indicates content that can be
analyzed and processed.  Mark-up entities will be recognized within the
text.

3)  A colleague of mine swears he saw it defined as "printable character
data," but can't remember where he saw it.

What's up with this?  :)

Thanks!
John



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From ricko at allette.com.au  Mon Jul 19 21:13:56 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <003601bed21b$84cb79b0$39f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>

 From: John E. Simpson 
 

>At 04:04 PM 07/17/1999 +0800, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
> [very useful summary of DTDs, schemata, infoset...]
>>and anonymous content types.
>
>What's an "anonymous content type"?

In a little note "Richer Anonymous Content Types" 
 http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/anonymous.html
I have suggested that there are other declared content
types apart from EMPTY and ANY that might be
useful for XML Schemas.   (The content typing is anonymous
in that it specify kinds of content models without
actually naming the element types. This might fit in
with XML document usage better than simple
"open" and "closed" content models.)

I suggest:
SINGLE 
PAIR
PAIRS 
SAME 
LEAF 
LEAVES 
UNIQUE
NONRECURSIVE

Rick Jelliffe


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jul 19 21:39:32 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: PCDATA
In-Reply-To: <37937748.5E7D954E@ncmail.net>
Message-ID: <199907191941.PAA14788@hesketh.net>

At 03:06 PM 7/19/99 -0400, John Martin wrote:
>I have heard three different definitions of PCDATA so far.
>
>1)  The book called XML: A Primer by Simon St. Laurent defines it as
>follows:
>
>"parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text that
>will be examined by the parser for entities and markup.  Parsed
>character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters; these need
>to be represented by the & < and > entities, respectively.

I don't know where I got it my definition originally, but my handy copy of
Charles Goldfarb's _SGML Handbook_ says (on page 140:8 and 277:15, where it
seems to be part of the ISO 8879 text)

4.229 PCDATA: Parsed character data

CDATA (at 254:14 and 140:13) is just character data.

Basically, it looks like the difference is that markup (elements,
attributes, entities) is recognized in areas declared as parsed character
data but not in areas declared just plain character data.

Fun stuff!

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Mon Jul 19 21:41:42 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: PCDATA
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BBFD13@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

I would tend to go with the definition Tim Bray gave in the Annotated XML
Spec from XML.com (located at http://www.xml.com/axml/axml.html), which Mr.
Laurent's definition agrees with:


#PCDATA Means What?
An observant reader wrote in to say that while the grammar makes clear that
the keyword #PCDATA is used to signal mixed content, the spec says nothing
about where that magic word comes from. The # is there because it can't be
used in a Name, so #PCDATA could never be the type of a child element. The
string PCDATA itself stands for "Parsed Character Data". It is another
inheritance from SGML; in this usage, "parsed" means that the XML processor
will read this text looking for markup signaled by < and & characters.


Hope this helps.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mediaserv.com
MediaServ Information Architects
http://www.MediaServ.com


-----Original Message-----
From: John Martin [mailto:John.Martin@ncmail.net]
Sent: Monday, July 19, 1999 3:07 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: PCDATA


I have heard three different definitions of PCDATA so far.

1)  The book called XML: A Primer by Simon St. Laurent defines it as
follows:

"parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text that
will be examined by the parser for entities and markup.  Parsed
character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters; these need
to be represented by the & < and > entities, respectively.

2)  Microstar's Near & Far Designer defines it in its help screen as
follows:

"Processable Character Data (PCDATA)" - Indicates content that can be
analyzed and processed.  Mark-up entities will be recognized within the
text.

3)  A colleague of mine swears he saw it defined as "printable character
data," but can't remember where he saw it.

What's up with this?  :)

Thanks!
John



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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Mon Jul 19 22:05:13 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:56 2004
Subject: PCDATA
References: <199907191941.PAA14788@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <37938580.6B08B83@locke.ccil.org>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:

> 4.229 PCDATA: Parsed character data
> 
> CDATA (at 254:14 and 140:13) is just character data.
> 
> Basically, it looks like the difference is that markup (elements,
> attributes, entities) is recognized in areas declared as parsed character
> data but not in areas declared just plain character data.

This definition is useful for PCDATA, but dangerously misleading
for CDATA.  CDATA content doesn't exist in XML; CDATA sections are
as described, but values of CDATA attributes *do* recognize
markup.  Go figure.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From simpson at polaris.net  Mon Jul 19 22:09:30 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Anonymous content types (WAS: Re: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML
  Schema)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990719161318.00806c80@polaris.net>

At 03:18 AM 7/20/1999 +0800, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>In a little note "Richer Anonymous Content Types" 
> http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/anonymous.html
>I have suggested that there are other declared content
>types apart from EMPTY and ANY that might be
>useful for XML Schemas.   (The content typing is anonymous
>in that it specify kinds of content models without
>actually naming the element types. This might fit in
>with XML document usage better than simple
>"open" and "closed" content models.)
>
>I suggest:
>SINGLE 
>PAIR
>PAIRS 
>SAME 
>LEAF 
>LEAVES 
>UNIQUE
>NONRECURSIVE

Ah. Thanks for the explanation. 

So (acknowledging that you mean it to apply only to XML schemas, and that
the following examples don't conform to legitimate XML DTD syntax) you're
suggesting element content models such as:

	

(The king element may contain any other single element)

	

(The hands element may contain any *pair* of other elements)

	

(The citizens element may contain any number of child elements, but each
child may appear only once within the citizens element)

Like that? These would all be subtypes of ANY, no?

=============================================================
John E. Simpson          | It's no disgrace t'be poor, 
simpson@polaris.net      | but it might as well be.
                         |            -- "Kin" Hubbard

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From niko at cmsplatform.com  Mon Jul 19 23:46:38 1999
From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
Message-ID: <008001bed230$3ad5b5e0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>

Yes, indeed, the MacOS uses CR-delimited text files.  We do quite a bit of
out markup production on Macs, with content management on MS-Windows PCs
(though that is moving to Linux/GNU machines).  So we deal with all three
common flavors of text file delimiters.

Expat implements the XML 1.0 spec correctly (i discovered this the hard way,
when Expat reported offsets that were different that i expected in my
CRLF-delimited files).

John Cowan got to this earlier today, but to amplify his point...

The following excerpt is from Tim Bray's truly excellent
annotated XML 1.0 Specification (http://www.xml.com/axml/testaxml.htm or
http://www.xml.com/axml/target.html to omit the explanation frame).

======= Begin spec excerpt =======
2.11 End-of-Line Handling
XML parsed entities are often stored in computer files which, for editing
convenience, are organized into lines. These lines are typically separated
by some combination of the characters carriage-return (#xD) and line-feed
(#xA).

To simplify the tasks of applications, wherever an external parsed entity or
the literal entity value of an internal parsed entity contains either the
literal two-character sequence "#xD#xA" or a standalone literal #xD, an XML
processor must pass to the application the single character #xA. (This
behavior can conveniently be produced by normalizing all line breaks to #xA
on input, before parsing.)
======= End spec excerpt =======


  
..much of the internet is still constrained by Unix's feeble 7-bit character
TTY legacy.  This latter issue is echoed in Java's lack of _unsigned_ bytes
(!), and XML's auto-conversion of CRLF-delimited text records to
LF-delimited records (yet another legacy/bias from Unix).
  
  
Is there historical basis to the above statement?  It was a deduction based
upon the old Xenix "text mode" I/O and the probability that most of the
developers of the XML standard were based in the Unix world.
  


Regards,
-Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo.



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From jarle.stabell at dokpro.uio.no  Tue Jul 20 00:33:58 1999
From: jarle.stabell at dokpro.uio.no (Jarle Stabell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: PCDATA
Message-ID: <01BED248.0508E5A0.jarle.stabell@dokpro.uio.no>

John Martin wrote:
> I have heard three different definitions of PCDATA so far.
>
> "parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text that
> will be examined by the parser for entities and markup.  Parsed
> character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters; these need
> to be represented by the & < and > entities, respectively.


I believe PCDATA can contain ">". However, it cannot contain "]]>", except 
when this ends CDATA sections.

Cheers,
Jarle


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From rbryan at CapAccess.org  Tue Jul 20 00:57:32 1999
From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: XML whitespace
Message-ID: 


I'm  looking at the EBNF grammar
of XML 1.0 at www.w3.org and it 
brings up a question. 

The XML specification doesn't allow
for whitespace in several places.
For example, this is not legal
in a start tag.
 .
 .
 V
< termdef >

And these are not legal 
in an end tag.
 . .
 . .
 V V
< / termdef > 

Why is this?

Attributes allow whitespace.
This is legal. 
                . . .       . .
                . . .       . .
                V V V       V V


Why is whitespace allowed sometimes
and other times not? 



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From liamquin at interlog.com  Tue Jul 20 01:24:20 1999
From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: XML whitespace
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 

On Mon, 19 Jul 1999, Randy Bryan wrote:
> The XML specification doesn't allow
> for whitespace in several places.

This is because it is a derivative of SGML, which is a delimiter-based
language, not a token-based one.

Another way to look at it is that the  is not a legal example, so that isn't really
as helpful as one might like.

In writing our book on XML, Ian and I did no better, I think, than
suggesting that readers simply learn the rules :-(

Lee (co-author, The XML Specification Guide, Wiley)

-- 
Liam Quin, Barefoot Computing, Toronto;  The barefoot agitator
l i a m q u i n     at    i n t e r l o g    dot   c o m
Ankh on irc.sorcery.net, ankle5/Ankle{MD} on DALnet


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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Tue Jul 20 03:30:58 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Financial reference data DTD
References: <852567B3.00510C34.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
Message-ID: <004f01bed24f$c0f0abc0$334ffea9@litebook>

I intend to work on developing XML messages for financial reference
data(Related
> to Securities industries)
> Does any one know of any existing DTD in this domain?

I do know there is a standard for financial and securities details - I do
not know where it is though
but look at the following
 www.openapplications.org
 http://www.cohasset.com/aust.html
http://www.uwi.com/market
 www.4thworldtele.com/public

Try ftpsearch.com and search for *.DTD

Some others
www.avicon.com
----- Original Message -----
From: 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 12:42 AM
Subject: Financial reference data DTD


> >
> Thanks
>
> Satya
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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>
>


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From cippe at usa.net  Tue Jul 20 09:25:48 1999
From: cippe at usa.net (Orlando Castro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: xml Servers
Message-ID: <19990720073328.10069.qmail@nwcst285.netaddress.usa.net>

Hi everybody.

I'm new in xml developing, and i have lots of questions about it. 

What i'm doing at this moment is a simple website with xml/xsl, and i would
like to know if there is/are any xml server, and which is better than other,
which would be the best client, etc.

Sorry if this is a too repetitive question.

Thanks


              Orlando

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From cptsou at iii.org.tw  Tue Jul 20 12:21:46 1999
From: cptsou at iii.org.tw (Chenping Tsou)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Need Help in WIDL
Message-ID: <37944E73.5CC917A5@iii.org.tw>

Hi All:

I am just wondering if anyboy out there is using WIDL. I try to using
sereral validating parser(IBM, JAVAX...) to parse the sample shipping
document. But I can EVEN not get the DTD pass the validating process.

in the line

TYPE (String | String[] | String[][]) "String"

and

 NULLOK             #BOOLEAN

Any help is appreciated.

Chenping Tsou



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From makio at atl-systems.co.jp  Tue Jul 20 14:22:03 1999
From: makio at atl-systems.co.jp (Makio Katsuyama)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: PECEL
Message-ID: <37946AAB.4550B561@atl-systems.co.jp>


It is my pleasure to announce that PECEL, XML Data Entry tool is finally
available for free download.

PECEL is XML data entry tool for enterprise application based on
XML4J_2_0_9. It allow you to navigate xml tree structure generated from
given DTD and set values on each node.

Please visit our web-server to download our product
http://www.atl-systems.co.jp/index_e.htm

Makio Katsuyama
ATL Systems

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Tue Jul 20 16:28:09 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Is CDATA "structure"?
References: <008001bed230$3ad5b5e0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>
Message-ID: <379487E1.9066A456@locke.ccil.org>

Nik O wrote:

> 
>   
> ..much of the internet is still constrained by Unix's feeble 7-bit character
> TTY legacy.  This latter issue is echoed in Java's lack of _unsigned_ bytes
> (!), and XML's auto-conversion of CRLF-delimited text records to
> LF-delimited records (yet another legacy/bias from Unix).
>   
>   
> Is there historical basis to the above statement?  It was a deduction based
> upon the old Xenix "text mode" I/O and the probability that most of the
> developers of the XML standard were based in the Unix world.
>   
> 

Java doesn't have unsigned arithmetic values (and type *byte* is
meant to be arithmetic) because they have all kinds of surprising
results if misused: see the relevant sections of _Writing Solid C_.
The purposes served by unsigned bytes are better served by characters;
you can't just cast bytes to characters, though, but need to use
c = b < 0 ? b + 256 : b instead.

The use of LF as newline is Unix, but is also ISO; the character
code was explicitly ambiguous between advance-paper and go-to-new-line.
In the rarely used C1 character set, there are two separate control
characters to disambiguate these functions.  As for "TTY legacy",
real Teletypes (at least models 33/35) want CR/LF, not just LF.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From malliks at rocketmail.com  Tue Jul 20 16:34:23 1999
From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: DOCTYPE through DOM Model
Message-ID: <19990720143600.27464.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com>


Hi,

I'm creating XML Documents using DOM Model. How do I
embed DOCTYPE along with the .DTD File into the XML
Document using the DOM Model? Thanks in advance.

CU,

Malliks




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From edensr at businesslogic.com  Tue Jul 20 17:19:30 1999
From: edensr at businesslogic.com (Rochelle Edens)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: What about XML Pro??
References: <4160E6FC08ABD21191F000805F857E93658F24@excmar-01.toronto.insystems.com>
Message-ID: <3794940E.5ECDCF7F@businesslogic.com>

Personally, I like XMLPro just because of how it lays out the document, it's really a personal
preference feature.

Bill Traynor wrote:

> I have read that XMLSpy is superior to XMLPro, however, I've not had a
> chance to evaluate either.
>
> Great source of XML tools is http://www.xmlsoftware.com/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk
> [mailto:Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, July 13, 1999 5:44 AM
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: What about XML Pro??
>
> Dante,
>
> FWIW they used to have access to a restricted usage evaluation version
> somewhere on the site.
>
> Regards
>
> Andy B.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dante M. Lee [mailto:dtmlee@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov]
> Sent: 12 July 1999 21:41
> To: XML Developers
> Subject: What about XML Pro??
>
> Does anyone know whether or not the program "XML Pro" is worth my
> investment. It is available at www.vervet.com, and it claims to be able help
> to XML developers. Please let me know if it is a helpful tool.
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
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>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From niko at cmsplatform.com  Tue Jul 20 17:53:13 1999
From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <002701bed2c7$dbf76120$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>

John Cowan wrote:

>Java doesn't have unsigned arithmetic values (and type *byte* is
>meant to be arithmetic) because they have all kinds of surprising
>results if misused: see the relevant sections of _Writing Solid C_.
>The purposes served by unsigned bytes are better served by characters;
>you can't just cast bytes to characters, though, but need to use
>c = b < 0 ? b + 256 : b instead.

I understand Java's intent re the *byte* type, and i agree that Java's use
of Unicode is a long-overdue move to non-Anglo-centric computing.  However,
since i've been writing rock-solid C code for almost 20 years, i've long
observed a common programmer laziness concerning all numeric types -- namely
the non-use of the "unsigned" qualifier for inherently unsigned numbers
(e.g. file offsets, binary file contents).  The former example created an
unnecessary 32KB (and later 2GB) limit to file sizes handled using the
standard C library.  The latter example is still an issue today -- at least
for those whose computing environment includes low-resource embedded systems
and/or legacy byte-oriented data formats.

I beg to disagree that 16-bit characters are always the better approach when
dealing with byte-oriented data.  It is true that modern 32- and 64-bit
processors don't handle mere bytes as efficiently as the 8- and 16-bit procs
of old, and thus should use 16-, or even 32-bit, chunks as the base unit of
data.  However, if Java is going to cover the world, including embedded
systems (e.g. the Java coffer-maker), compact byte-oriented data formats
will continue to be useful, and i'd hate to have to execute "c = (b < 0 ? b
+ 256 : b)" every time i wanted to read a single byte.  And yes, i do stand
guilty of spending too much time with 6805's and such, and not enough with
Alphas and Pentiums [sigh].

>[snip]
>As for "TTY legacy", real Teletypes (at least models 33/35)
>want CR/LF, not just LF.

After learning to program using 80-column Hollerith [sp?] cards, i was
delighted to move to state-of-the-art interactive programming using a TTY
(with paper tape!) -- the TTY comment pertained to 7-bit characters -- not
text record delimiters.

Regards,
-Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo.



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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jul 20 19:08:23 1999
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: XED 0.5 released
Message-ID: <7284.199907201710@mcilvanney.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

I'm pleased to announce a major upgrade release of XED, my XML-aware
text editor.  The major changes since the last release are DTD
processing for seeding the element and attribute menus and a
reasonable set of help files.  See

  http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/xed.html

for details and download information.

>From the CHANGES file:

Change log through v0.5 as released

Changes from v0.4.1.2 as released:

Features:
  Tries to install XED as editor for XML and XSL files
  Will read DTDs, can specify DTD for DOCTYPE of New documents, uses DTD
   to initialise element and attribute menus
  Can save preferences (including font-size and Run command) (see
   Options/Preferences)
  Large deletions, and undoing thereof, much improved
  Fast recovery from replacing large files
  Reasonable start on HELP files (WIN32: .HLP; UN*X: .html)

Bug fixes:
  Lots of small ones
  Copies of empty elements no longer confused with originals
  Plugged some more holes wrt creating ill-formed comments, CDATA sections, PIs
  Major rework of attribute and tag menu construction, enabling much
   larger DTDs to be handled, e.g. docbookx.

ht

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Tue Jul 20 20:04:00 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:57 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
In-Reply-To: <002701bed2c7$dbf76120$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> from "Nik O" at Jul 20, 99 09:52:21 am
Message-ID: <199907201837.OAA23422@locke.ccil.org>

Nik O scripsit:

> I understand Java's intent re the *byte* type, and i agree that Java's use
> of Unicode is a long-overdue move to non-Anglo-centric computing.  However,
> since i've been writing rock-solid C code for almost 20 years, i've long
> observed a common programmer laziness concerning all numeric types -- namely
> the non-use of the "unsigned" qualifier for inherently unsigned numbers
> (e.g. file offsets, binary file contents).  The former example created an
> unnecessary 32KB (and later 2GB) limit to file sizes handled using the
> standard C library.  The latter example is still an issue today -- at least
> for those whose computing environment includes low-resource embedded systems
> and/or legacy byte-oriented data formats.

The trouble is that although you can squeeze out a bit with unsigned numbers,
you can get hosed very easily in other ways.  (BTW, the 15-bit limit on
file sizes was gone well before the 6th Edition of Unix.)  Furthermore,
if 31 bits isn't enough, is 32 bits really so much better?

The basic problem is code like this:

	unsigned count;
	while (--count > 0) {
		/* do something */
		}

This loop will never fail, because unsigned numbers are always greater
than or equal to zero.  Our intuitions are about mathemtical integers;
machine signed ints already have overflow problems that make them deviate
from what we expect; adding unsigned behavior (overflowing below zero
as well as at MAXINT) makes such values even less intuitive.

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From Satya.Rao at chase.com  Tue Jul 20 20:24:00 1999
From: Satya.Rao at chase.com (Satya.Rao@chase.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Source for writing DTD
Message-ID: <852567B4.006418FC.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>


I would like to define DTD for my domain.

1.  Where can I get idea about the design of DTD?
2. Is it good idea to write DTD or DTD schemas?

Thanks

Satya




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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Tue Jul 20 21:20:24 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Source for writing DTD
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B48@MDYNYCMSX1>

>1.  Where can I get idea about the design of DTD?

There are two good books: "Structuring XML Documents" by David Megginson and
"Developing SGML DTDs" (SGML syntax can be slightly different in places, but
most design issues are the same) by Eve Maler and Jeanne El Andaloussi.

>2. Is it good idea to write DTD or DTD schemas?

For now, DTDs. The W3C schema specification is still a moving target with a
ways to go, and no software that I know of supports it yet.

(By the way, the xml-l list is better for basic XML issues; xml-dev
concentrates on more advanced and theoretical stuff. See
http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/lists.html#XML-L for more on xml-l.)

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob             "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jul 20 21:29:14 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Source for writing DTD
In-Reply-To: <852567B4.006418FC.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
References: <852567B4.006418FC.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
Message-ID: <14228.52365.988240.821275@localhost.localdomain>

Satya.Rao@chase.com writes:

 > I would like to define DTD for my domain.
 > 
 > 1.  Where can I get idea about the design of DTD?
 > 2.  Is it good idea to write DTD or DTD schemas?

It's a good idea to write down what you need in semi-formal, human
readable prose first.  For example, you might use a standard table
with several fields to fill in, or even UML.  Most of your target
customers won't know DTD syntax or XML Schema, so you'll need to
present the information in a form that they can understand.

Once you've done that (and it's easily 90 per cent of the work),
actually writing a DTD, XML-Schema, or both is a matter of
representing your ideal model within the limits of DTD and/or XML
Schema capabilities.

Eve Maler and Jeanne El Andaloussi describe one possible business
approach for designing abstract models in their book DEVELOPING SGML
DTDS: FROM TEXT TO MODEL TO MARKUP (ISBN 0-13-309881-8); don't feel
bound by the exact details of their process, but reading the book
should give you a good idea of what you're up against.  The really
hard part is finding all of the requirements and getting buy-in from
the target customers (this is what SGML/XML consultants generally
spend most of their time doing).

When you're ready to actually write the DTD or other schema, you can
take a look at my own book, STRUCTURING XML DOCUMENTS (ISBN
0-13-642299-3) to learn about some of the decisions and trade-offs
involved in document type design.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From niko at cmsplatform.com  Tue Jul 20 21:43:58 1999
From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <028601bed2e8$3deadb80$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>

John Cowan wrote:

>if 31 bits isn't enough, is 32 bits really so much better?

Um, isn't it twice as good? ;-)  I apologise for mixing examples -- the
15-bit limit did persist in MSC's library until the early 90's.  And please
note my embedded systems context, where bits still do matter...

>The basic problem is code like this:
>
>unsigned count;
>while (--count > 0) {
>/* do something */
>}

Of course the above is true.  And although i'm definitely a C (and other
non-portable assemblers) dinosaur, i never bought into the tendency of many
C progs to write (IMHO) excessively compact/cryptic code.  Thus, i've always
written:

unsigned int count = something_gt_0;
while (count > 0)
{
  // do something
  count--;
}

I will concede that this has the disadvantage of dis-associating the loop
structure and its counter, but that's C4U.  And i promise not to engage in
another off-topic rant/debate re matching braces and C coding style --
although i'm writing this instead of finishing yet another boring code style
document for my current employer :-).



I originally brought this up re "XML's [specified] auto-conversion of
CRLF-delimited text records to LF-delimited records".  My concern is that,
given Microsoft's market dominance, much of the XML text that will be
generated in the near future (or that what comes from legacy data) will use
the CRLF delimiter.  When an XML-compliant parser replaces these characters
with a single LF, the data will no longer be viewable/editable with simple
MS-Windows text tools (e.g. Notepad).  Also, the original XML data is
replaced by a converted form (let's ignore entity expansion for the moment).
Whilst i'd be the first to concede that LF-delimited data is more compact,
and easier to parse, i also tend to be conservative (in the literal sense)
about data handling.  Was this data conversion specified in XML 1.0 so as to
be ISO-compliant?  Couldn't have all three common flavors of text delimiter
(CR, LF, and CRLF) have been allowed/supported/preserved?  Or am i missing
some significant design consideration here?

Of course, much of my concern is based upon petty personal issues ;-).  I'm
trying to build a content production system that supports tools and users in
Win 98/NT, MacOS, Linux and Solaris environments.  I'd like to postpone the
(admittedly trivial) conversion of text delimiters as the XML data flows
from OS to OS until final production, but i guess this just isn't possible.
And my concern here is more about data integrity than bytes.  Despite my
recent posts, i'm willing to accept that storage/bandwidth is cheap, and
getting cheaper.  Thus, a clean and consistent XML standard is arguably more
important than saving bytes and/or being able to use existing
(anachronistic) text tools.



Maybe someday i'll grow up and decide whether i'd rather be a bit-twiddler
or a systems architect -- but in the mean time, i'm just a little schizo,
we're feeling fine :-).

Regards,
-Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo.



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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jul 20 22:41:35 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BBFD17@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Nik O [mailto:niko@cmsplatform.com]

> 
> 
> I originally brought this up re "XML's [specified] auto-conversion of
> CRLF-delimited text records to LF-delimited records".  My 
> concern is that,
> given Microsoft's market dominance, much of the XML text that will be
> generated in the near future (or that what comes from legacy 
> data) will use
> the CRLF delimiter.  When an XML-compliant parser replaces 
> these characters
> with a single LF, the data will no longer be 
> viewable/editable with simple
> MS-Windows text tools (e.g. Notepad).  Also, the original XML data is
> replaced by a converted form (let's ignore entity expansion 
> for the moment).

Tim Bray comments on this in the Annotated XML spec (at
http://www.xml.com/axml/axml.html):


Line End Trade-Offs
The idea here is that a programmer need never have to wrestle with the fact
that Windows boxes, Macintoshes, and Unix systems all use different
characters to separate lines. Since XML documents will be stored in files on
all these systems, and will often be broken up into lines, it's absolutely
certain that these documents will use all these different combinations of
carriage-return and line-feed.

But as a programmer using an XML processor, you can count on never seeing
anything but a single line-feed character separating lines. This means your
code will run anywhere.

Since the publication of the spec, we have received a certain number of
complaints from Microsoft Windows programmers, who find it surprising and
disturbing that the data they receive from the XML processor has "weird,
unconventional" line separation. Given the relative number of Windows
programmers, it might have been a good idea to adopt the Windows-standard
CR-LF as the line separator signal, as opposed to the single LF; but it's
too late for that now.


I've noticed myself that my beautifully formatted XML documents do sometimes
have line separators stripped out [from a Windows point of view] when
viewing them in Notepad, but since I only ever need to look at the bare XML
when I'm debugging, it's not really a problem in my case.

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From afeygin at ncommand.com  Wed Jul 21 01:12:26 1999
From: afeygin at ncommand.com (Alex Feygin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: EDI to XML?
Message-ID: <000001bed305$c0d1ba60$3f01a8c0@NCOMMAND>


Are there any tools out there to aid in the convertion of
EDI documents to XML?

thanks,
alex


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From harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com  Wed Jul 21 01:40:30 1999
From: harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com (Betty L. Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: EDI to XML?
In-Reply-To: <000001bed305$c0d1ba60$3f01a8c0@NCOMMAND>
Message-ID: 


Yes, there are a few.  I am not sure what your needs are.  Sterling
Commerce just released a version of their EDI mapper that supports
XML.

Also, any conversion tool (Omnimark, Perl, Java, etc.) can be
used to go from EDI to XML.  

Good luck.

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. | 
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   | 
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/  



On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Alex Feygin wrote:

> 
> Are there any tools out there to aid in the convertion of
> EDI documents to XML?
> 
> thanks,
> alex
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 


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From sunyzx at tangram.com.cn  Wed Jul 21 02:42:07 1999
From: sunyzx at tangram.com.cn (sunyzx)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Chinese XML technical web site
Message-ID: 

Hi,
 More and more information in Chinese is ready for you in the  web site:
http://www.xml.org.cn  . It is always open to every Chinese,in
Mainland,Taiwan,HK and overseas,aiming to promote the XML development  in
China.So your participation and care is appreciated!

Best Regards,
Sunny
----------------------------------------------------
Open XML needs developing China&
Open China requires developing XML!
----------------------------------------------------



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From macherius at darmstadt.gmd.de  Wed Jul 21 02:55:28 1999
From: macherius at darmstadt.gmd.de (Ingo Macherius)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: New Product: Infonyte XQL Engine
Message-ID: <199907210057.CAA12144@sonne.darmstadt.gmd.de>

Dear XML community,

an enhanced commercial version of the proven GMD-IPSI XQL engine
technology is now available - the Infonyte XQL Suite. XQL is a
query language that uses XML as a data model, syntactically very
similar to XSL patterns. 

The Infonyte XQL Suite includes the complete functionality of the
GMD-IPSI XQL Engine, plus bugfixes and speedups. Exciting new
features have been added, e.g. multidocument queries, database
joins, and navigation to documents via http. These unique features
make the Infonyte XQL Suite a powerful and robust framework for
XML based information brokering.

The Infonyte XQL Suite is distributed by GMD-IPSI's spin-off
company GLOBIT - Global Information Technolgies GmbH. Along with
the commercial distribution of the Infonyte XQL Suite, GLOBIT
offers professional support, continuous maintainance, updates,
training, and consulting.

For your convenience, find attached a more detailed description of
the Infonyte XQL Suite, contact information, and some
background information about GLOBIT. Please do not hesitate to
contact GLOBIT (infonyte@globit.com) for further information.

Kind regards,
GLOBIT's Infonyte Team


1. Product Description
----------------------

The Infonyte XQL Suite provides a comprehensive, lightweight
solution for querying and storing large, distributed XML
documents. It is based on two major components, a persistent
implementation of the W3C DOM (Document Object Model) API and a
web-aware query engine for the XQL language.

The lightweight implementation requires only an off-the-shelf Java
runtime environment. Having a remarkably small footprint for
memory, storage, and CPU, it is well suited for distributed
applications which require queryable document/data repositories.
Likewise, it can serve as a solid base for CD-ROM products.

With its integrated support for HTTP and URL, the Infonyte XQL
suite also enables the generation of scalable, multi-user server
applications built on Javasoft's Servlet technology. A particular
strength of Infonyte XQL server applications is the support for
seamless integration of existing web information services into
your value added information products.

The Infonyte XQL Suite originates from a research project at
GMD-IPSI, the Institute for Integrated Publication and Information
Systems of the German National Research Center for Information
Technology.

GMD-IPSI's XQL Engine and PDOM incorporate consolidated concepts
from many years of leading edge research and development in the
fields of federated databases and document management systems, and
have been in a number of real life applications. With the Infonyte
XQL Suite, GLOBIT offers an enhanced and stabilized version of the
XQL Engine and the PDOM for commercial use. GMD-IPSI's research
protoype continues to be available for non-commercial use and
evaluation at http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/

1.1 The XQL Query Engine Component

XQL is a query language for XML. It is very similar to XSL
Patterns extended by querying features. XQL expressions are easy
to type, can easily be parsed, and can be used in a variety of
software environments, e.g., as part of a URL, in XML or HTML
attributes, or in programming language strings.

The Infonyte XQL Query Engine implements the complete XQL
W3C-QL'98 workshop paper syntax version of XQL. Without trading
the simplicity of XQL, it supports in addition:
  - Multi document queries
  - Navigational Web queries on HTML documents
  - Return operators and sequence operators
    (Proposed extensions to XQL)
  - database join functionality
  - User definable XQL functions (extensions)

The implementation realizes a robust and efficient mix of indexing
and query optimization techniques. This results in leading edge
performance, especially for structurally complex queries.

The engine can be used on top of any W3C compliant DOM
implementation. This allows for seamless and simple embedding of
XQL support into your applications and services.

1.2 The PDOM component

The Infonyte Persistent Document Object Model (PDOM) implements
the full W3C DOM API. It is specifically tuned to exploit the
Infonyte XQL engine's optimization capabilities.

Persistency is achieved by indexed, binary files. Documents are
parsed once and stored in binary form, accessible to DOM
operations without the overhead of parsing them first. A
self-optimizing cache architecture further increases performance.
This approach scales very well beyond the limitations of main
memory. Thereby it forms a lightweight, flexible and often more
efficient alternative to costly and heavyweight DBMS based
solutions.

2. Contact
----------

Licenses for commercial use can be purchased via mail, fax, email
from

GLOBIT - Global Information Technologies GmbH
                             Phone:  +49-6151-893690
                             Fax:    +49-6151-894033
Dolivostr. 15                Email:  infonyte@globit.com
D-64293 Darmstadt, Germany   Web:    http://www.globit.com/

3. About GLOBIT GmbH
--------------------

GLOBIT - Global Information Technologies GmbH has been founded in
January 1997 as a spin-off company of the Institute for Integrated
Publication and Information Systems (IPSI) of the German National
Research Center for Information Technology (GMD).

GLOBIT develops and distributes advanced enabling software
technology as well as cutting edge application solutions. GLOBIT's
software product portfolio consists of high end software libraries
supporting structured document storage and management based on
SGML and XML, highly efficient digital video archival and
processing based on MPEG, as well as document and multimedia
oriented retrieval, processing and encryption support.

GLOBIT is closely cooperating with research groups in GMD-IPSI as
well as with industrial high tech partners. GLOBIT is currently
engaged in several joint R&D projects in the area of congress
information systems, digital libraries as well as webshop oriented
internet eCommerce solutions. For more information about GLOBIT,
please call +49-6151-893690, contact info@globit.com or visit
http://www.globit.com.

--
GLOBIT GmbH                  Phone:  +49-6151-893690
Ingo Macherius               Fax:    +49-6151-894033
Dolivostr. 15                Email:  ingo.macherius@globit.com
D-64293 Darmstadt, Germany   Web:    http://www.globit.com/

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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Wed Jul 21 02:58:28 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Shakespeare 2.00 available
Message-ID: <199907210100.SAA14314@boethius.eng.sun.com>

Version 2.00 of my XML set of the plays of Shakespeare is now
available at

   http://metalab.unc.edu/bosak/xml/eg/shaks200.zip

See the file shaksper.htm included in the distribution for more
information.

The Shakespeare set is the companion to a set of religious works
marked up in XML that was updated almost a year ago with a revised DTD
and a set of DSSSL stylesheets; you can get that set at

   http://metalab.unc.edu/bosak/xml/eg/rel200.zip

Both sets began as ASCII files in the public domain.  I marked them up
in 1992 as a beginner's exercise in SGML DTD and stylesheet design and
released them in 1996 as the earliest examples of real documents in
XML -- so early, in fact, that they were not completely compliant with
the XML Recommendation as finally approved in February 1998.  The
Religion set achieved XML compliance with the release of version 2.00
in September of 1998, and now the Shakespeare set joins it in the same
happy state.  When taken with their corresponding DTD, the plays are
both valid SGML (according to nsgmls) and valid XML (according to
nsgmls, the Java Software Project X parser, and the validator
developed by the Scholarly Technology Group at Brown University).  I
invite everyone to check these files with their own favorite parsers
and let me know if anything is found amiss.

I had originally intended to supply a set of DSSSL stylesheets for the
plays just as I did for the religious texts -- hence the delay in
making this set available.  I have given up on finding the time to do
this right now, but I hope to include stylesheets in a future release.

Jon Bosak
Los Altos, California
July 1999

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From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au  Wed Jul 21 04:21:42 1999
From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
In-Reply-To: <199907201837.OAA23422@locke.ccil.org>; from John Cowan on Tue, Jul 20, 1999 at 02:37:43PM -0400
References: <002701bed2c7$dbf76120$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <199907201837.OAA23422@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <19990721122345.A14970@io.mds.rmit.edu.au>

On Tue, Jul 20, 1999 at 02:37:43PM -0400, John Cowan wrote:
> Nik O scripsit:
> 
> > I understand Java's intent re the *byte* type, and i agree that
> > Java's use of Unicode is a long-overdue move to non-Anglo-centric
> > computing.  However, since i've been writing rock-solid C code for
> > almost 20 years, i've long observed a common programmer laziness
> > concerning all numeric types -- namely the non-use of the
> > "unsigned" qualifier for inherently unsigned numbers (e.g. file
> > offsets, binary file contents).  The former example created an
> > unnecessary 32KB (and later 2GB) limit to file sizes handled using
> > the standard C library.  The latter example is still an issue
> > today -- at least for those whose computing environment includes
> > low-resource embedded systems and/or legacy byte-oriented data
> > formats.
> 
> The trouble is that although you can squeeze out a bit with unsigned
> numbers, you can get hosed very easily in other ways.  (BTW, the
> 15-bit limit on file sizes was gone well before the 6th Edition of
> Unix.)  Furthermore, if 31 bits isn't enough, is 32 bits really so
> much better?
> 
> The basic problem is code like this:
> 
> 	unsigned count;
> 	while (--count > 0) {
> 		/* do something */
> 		}
> 
> This loop will never fail,

Yes it will.  I presume you were thinking of >=.  There is a simple
canonical loop for down-counting:

  int count;
  for (count = size; count-- > 0;)  /* size == start + 1 */
  {
    /* Do something */
  }

In C++, the declaration can even be folded into the for construct to
keep the loop variable local to the block:

  for (int count = size; count-- >= 0;) // ...

Of course this doesn't mitigate the fact that programmers have to
remember to do this for unsigned types.  This is especially hazardous
if the type is Foo::SizeType.  And using signed types to iterate over
an object that uses an unsigned index type can generate endless
signed-unsigned comparison warnings from some compilers.

Ultimately I advocate defensiveness on both sides: define signed
interfaces and use the safe down-counting loop, regardless of integral
type.  Obviously all of this is moot in Java.  I think it comes down
to whether you need power or safety.

Usually one will find that if 2 billion isn't a large enough number
then 4 billion isn't either (or won't be for long), and a 64 kB file
size limit is hardly less annoying than a 32 kB limit, so increased
numerical range isn't as compelling an argument for unsigned types as
it might seem.  However, this is only a general argument.  It will
often break down when one looks at specific cases with particular
requirements.  For instance, it might be exceedingly annoying to be
unable to create a 40 kB data structure in a 64 kB architecture; you
know that a 64 kB limit will forever suit your needs, but the size is
signed so you are stuck with 32 kB.  You have to split your data in
unnatural ways (or use segmented access) and live with all the added
complications to your code.  It might even blow your program out
enough to blow the project.

Consequently I think it is unwise to enforce a no-unsigned-types rule.
This will almost certainly cause someone grief some day.  I would
stick to making it a recommendation.


Cheers,
Marcelo

P.S.: This advice comes from the painful experience of cleaning up the
myriad bugs that surfaced after I converted our array class to
size_type index values.

-- 
http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/

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From larsga at ifi.uio.no  Wed Jul 21 11:14:35 1999
From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: EDI to XML?
In-Reply-To: <000001bed305$c0d1ba60$3f01a8c0@NCOMMAND>
References: <000001bed305$c0d1ba60$3f01a8c0@NCOMMAND>
Message-ID: 


* Alex Feygin
|
| Are there any tools out there to aid in the convertion of EDI
| documents to XML?

There is a Perl tool called XML::Edifact:



--Lars M.


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From christopher.harris at reuters.com  Wed Jul 21 13:09:30 1999
From: christopher.harris at reuters.com (Chris Harris)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: 

I came up against this issue in some work I've been doing recently on Java
XML parser performance, would be interested in comments etc.

There are two main APIs for applications that process XML documents - DOM
(Document Object Model) and SAX (Simple API to XML). DOM involves
constructing a tree of Nodes from the XML document, and then using a simple
API to walk the tree and extract information from it. SAX is an event based
API designed to fire user-written code as elements etc. are encountered in
the parsing of the document. SAX is very useful when the document may be
too large to fit into memory.

Validation of a document means ensuring that the document conforms entirely
to the DTD for that document. In practice, this means that the entire
document has to fit into memory since validation cannot be completed until
the whole document has been parsed. This fits well with the DOM model, but
is somewhat in opposition to the SAX philosophy where most of the action is
done during the document parse.

This is not to say that you cannot use a validating parser with SAX, in
fact all the major parsers provide such capability. It's quite possible to
execute all your business logic during the SAX parse, and then throw it
away if the parse fails at the end of the document. 

My question is really, for those of you who are writing XML processors
(i.e. applications that use XML), what mode(s) do you use, and do you find
the need for a validating SAX parser? 

It's interesting to note that, in IBM's xml4j parser, the SAX parser is by
default non-validating, and the DOM parser is by default validating.

c

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
Reuters Ltd.

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jul 21 14:46:48 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Validation and APIs
In-Reply-To: 
References: 
Message-ID: <14229.49365.953238.434664@localhost.localdomain>

Chris Harris writes:

 > This is not to say that you cannot use a validating parser with SAX, in
 > fact all the major parsers provide such capability. It's quite possible to
 > execute all your business logic during the SAX parse, and then throw it
 > away if the parse fails at the end of the document. 

That's pretty much what happens with (most? all?) DOM implementations
behind the scenes.  Remember that the DOM is just one particular (very
generic) type of object model -- instead of working with invoices, or
inventory items, or what have you, you work with elements, attributes,
and text.  A DOM parser typically builds the tree as it goes, and then
presumably discards it all if there is an error.

In any case, even if a document is valid from the XML perspective, its
contents may still violate your business rules, and you might still
have to throw away everything in the middle of walking through a DOM
tree.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From stacy_whitney at stercomm.com  Wed Jul 21 15:24:11 1999
From: stacy_whitney at stercomm.com (Stacy Whitney)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: EDI to XML?
Message-ID: <01BED35B.DA06DC80.stacy_whitney@stercomm.com>



The product Betty is thinking of is GENTRAN:Server for NT.
More information is available on our website at
http://www.sterlingcommerce.com

-Stacy

-----Original Message-----
From:	Betty L. Harvey [SMTP:harvey@eccnet.eccnet.com]
Sent:	Tuesday, July 20, 1999 7:50 PM
To:	Alex Feygin
Cc:	xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject:	Re: EDI to XML?




Yes, there are a few.  I am not sure what your needs are.  Sterling
Commerce just released a version of their EDI mapper that supports
XML.

Also, any conversion tool (Omnimark, Perl, Java, etc.) can be
used to go from EDI to XML.

Good luck.

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. |
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   |
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/sgmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/



On Tue, 20 Jul 1999, Alex Feygin wrote:

>
> Are there any tools out there to aid in the convertion of
> EDI documents to XML?
>
> thanks,
> alex
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on 
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> (un)subscribe xml-dev
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message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Wed Jul 21 16:07:35 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:58 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
References: <002701bed2c7$dbf76120$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <199907201837.OAA23422@locke.ccil.org> <19990721122345.A14970@io.mds.rmit.edu.au>
Message-ID: <3795D4B4.3F45EF20@locke.ccil.org>

Marcelo Cantos wrote:
> > The basic problem is code like this:
> >
> >       unsigned count;
> >       while (--count > 0) {
> >               /* do something */
> >               }
> >
> > This loop will never fail,
> 
> Yes it will.  I presume you were thinking of >=.

Yes.  It's hard to write bad code *deliberately*; I hesitated for
a while, and finally settled for the above (incorrectly correct)
version.

> Usually one will find that if 2 billion isn't a large enough number
> then 4 billion isn't either (or won't be for long), and a 64 kB file
> size limit is hardly less annoying than a 32 kB limit, so increased
> numerical range isn't as compelling an argument for unsigned types as
> it might seem.

Just so.

> Consequently I think it is unwise to enforce a no-unsigned-types rule.

In the Java context, however, I think it is safe enough.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Wed Jul 21 16:05:56 1999
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: DOM2 WD and Events
Message-ID: <001501bed382$41807760$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

Hi,

I've just been skimming over the DOM2 Working Draft 
(http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-DOM-Level-2/), and am particularly 
interested in the event model as it provides a lot of 
additional power, as now I'll be able to make different components 
of my application aware of changes to the DOM made by other 
aspects. This will help to cleanly modularise many XML applications.

What surprised me into making this posting is the presence of 
User Interface events in the DOM2 model. I guess my question is :
Why? Is it just to make the browser integration that much 
easier?

I'd have thought that was an application level problem and 
not something that the DOM would need to be worried about.
>From looking at the list, I'd have thought that with the 
possible addition of a 'selection' mutation event, it would 
be possible to map any user interface event to something 
understandable by the DOM.

Awaiting enlightment ;)

L.

==================================================================
    "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less"
				---William of Occam
==================================================================
Leigh Dodds                             Eml:  ldodds@ingenta.com
ingenta ltd                             Tel:  +44 1225 826619
BUCS Building, University of Bath       Fax:  +44 1225 826283

HomePage :				 	http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/
WebLog   :			   http://my.userland.com/viewChannel$1079
==================================================================


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From tom.otvos at pervasive.com  Wed Jul 21 16:49:13 1999
From: tom.otvos at pervasive.com (Tom Otvos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C84AB@tormail2.tor.pervasive.com>

> 
> I originally brought this up re "XML's [specified] auto-conversion of
> CRLF-delimited text records to LF-delimited records".  My 
> concern is that, given Microsoft's market dominance, much of the XML text
that will be
> generated in the near future (or that what comes from legacy 
> data) will use the CRLF delimiter.  When an XML-compliant parser replaces 
> these characters with a single LF, the data will no longer be 
> viewable/editable with simple MS-Windows text tools (e.g. Notepad).  Also,
the original XML data is
> replaced by a converted form (let's ignore entity expansion for the
moment).
> Whilst i'd be the first to concede that LF-delimited data is more compact,
> and easier to parse, i also tend to be conservative (in the literal sense)
> about data handling.  Was this data conversion specified in XML 1.0 so as
to
> be ISO-compliant?  Couldn't have all three common flavors of text
delimiter
> (CR, LF, and CRLF) have been allowed/supported/preserved?  Or am i missing
> some significant design consideration here?
> 

When I started this thread, it was precisely this issue that I was trying to
solve.  Basically expat is (correctly!) condensing all the various types of
end-of-line delimiters and feeding my application LFs.  Since my documents
are created on Macs and PCs, that caused me a bit of grief, which I ended up
dancing around by using multiple CDATA sections and entity-encoding CRs.
This works great in my application, but when I view it in something like
Notepad, or any XML editor that treats CDATA as structure, the CDATA
sections add a lot of visual noise.

-- tomo

Tom Otvos
Director of Research, Pervasive Software Inc.
"Try not! Do, or do not. There is no 'try'." - Yoda

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Wed Jul 21 16:51:47 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: validation, SAX and DOM
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFDB@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> My question is really, for those of you who are writing XML processors
> (i.e. applications that use XML), what mode(s) do you use, 
> and do you find the need for a validating SAX parser? 

I have to say that I use both modes and I have not yet found much need for a
validating parser of either kind. This is because either (a) I trust the
software that wrote the XML to write valid documents, or (b) I don't trust
it, in which case I invariably need to validate incoming documents against
constraints that I cannot express in a DTD.

It doesn't help that neither SAX nor DOM allows the application to discover
whether validation has been done or not; that XML allows some of the
constraints expressed in a DTD to be overridden in the document instance;
that it's quite difficult to check in my application that the DTD used for
validation was 'the right one'; and with SAX, there is no guarantee of when
validation is done, for example it might give me duplicate ID values and
only report the error at endDocument() time. All these difficulties have led
me in real applications to do full validation at application level and not
trust the parser to do it for me.

Mike Kay

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From jesmith at kaon.com  Wed Jul 21 17:42:02 1999
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <000701becf92$70fff4f0$9607a8c0@mitra.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990721114335.0140bcbc@tiac.net>

IMHO,

DTDs are far superior to the incredibly bloated form the XML Schema seems
to be turning into.  Although you *do* have to go learn a little BNF to
understand them, I challenge anyone to translate an XML Schema to a mental
model without the aid of either paper or machine.  It'd take less time to
just learn BNF.

Of course, DTDs have some problems, each of which stikes me as something
which can be easily rectified in ways which would allow old DTDs to conform
to the new spec:

add namespace support
add user-defined types (INTEGER="[-][0123456789]+")
add SGML's & so I can be more specific about my content model
let me mix PCDATA and other elements in something other than |

Maybe there are one or two other things, but just a few small changes like
that and XML Schema would suddenly be a lot less interesting.

Seems odd to me that they are going in such a radically different direction
over at W3C when DTDs are *so close* to being the right solution.

(Yeah, yeah, I know that DTDs cannot represent big nasty object models with
inheritance and whatnot, but why not just translate an existing standard
into XML syntax for that purpose?)


-Joshua Smith


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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Wed Jul 21 18:48:00 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B57@MDYNYCMSX1>

>I challenge anyone to translate an XML Schema to a mental
>model without the aid of either paper or machine. 

I'll go with the machine, since I have one on my desk, and it has lots of
software on it capable of reading and manipulating XML documents. 

When XMI came out, I had just been studying up on UML, and I thought "Cool!
I'll print out the DTD so that I can look it over on the subway ride home!"
When I saw how big the XMI DTD was, I decided not to print it out--I prefer
not to spend that much time in the subway. My point is that many XML 1.0
DTDs are too big to form mental models of as well (especially when they use
lots of parameter entities), but they're still useful in serious production
environments, and schema that can't be understood by a visual skimming will
still have a lot going for them. The added machine-readability of schemas
has many system development payoffs, not least of which is that it will be
more extensible than SGML-style declarations--once it's in place, adding new
features to it will be easier than adding them to XML 1.0 DTD syntax.

It's adding up to having all the makings of a religious issue, which is too
bad, because two years from now people will be getting work done using both
styles. Each will be more appropriate for certain kinds of projects. 

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob             "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From arthur.rother at ovidius.com  Wed Jul 21 20:03:03 1999
From: arthur.rother at ovidius.com (Arthur Rother)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
In-Reply-To: <3F5CDA691528D311881E00508B0CBD630C84AB@tormail2.tor.pervas
 ive.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.19990721134059.009747a0@mail.jps.net>

Sorry if I just bark into this conversation about CL LF discussion and I
hope I did not misunderstand what the actuall discussion is about.

For sure the LF vs CRLF and CR in theory (the spec) and for viewing in
Notepad is all correctly debated or noted, but pragmatically, does this
really provide a problem? The encoding for XML is UTF-8. So in allmost any
text viewer/editor, in normal(?) circumstances it will show strange in
these applications, since they do not understand UTF-8 (in windows). 
The API on XML, for example DOM, is also UTF-8, which most applications may
treat as 7-bit ASCII, but for encoding generic applications this should be
treated as UTF-8. Windows is not UTF-8 aware, so it has to be converted to
Unicode anyway. In that little almost like DOM API I wrote, the API on the
XML structure handles all data as UTF-8, and all 'newlines' are LF. My API,
in addition to DOM, defines conversion functions for those cases, where
data is passed to or from the outside world, mostly the GUI or some kind of
Database. In the windows implementation of my API, conversion functions
convert from the Windows Code Page or Unicode, to UTF-8, converting each
CR/LF into LF automatically, and from UTF-8 to the Windows Code Page or
Unicode, converting each LF into CR/LF. On Unix platforms, the conversion
preserves the one LF. Like this, on all platforms, the API delivers and
expects the kind of 'newlines' that platform expects. With a good parser (I
use SP and expat), the Data in the internal XML structure always uses a
single LF.

The above is true for writing XML applications using C or C++. Using Java,
isn't the Java engine supposed to handle it likewise, and I think it does.

So any platform such as Windows or Macintosh may use their favorite
'newline' sequences, but it does not, or shouldn't affect XML applications.
But it is true that it's a pitty that they treat 'newlines' differently and
it will hurt slightly the performance of these applications.

Vor simply viewing text in a text viewer/editor, there are many Windows
text editors around, that view unix and windows text files correctly (But
true is, that most do display incorrect, if the text file has mixed CRLF
and LF). And while copying textfiles from windows to macintosh, or the
other way around, automatic conversion (I think, or at least with the "read
mac disks little program" on my windows) takes place.

Best regards,
Arthur Rother



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From ricko at allette.com.au  Wed Jul 21 20:36:28 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Anonymous content types (WAS: Re: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema)
Message-ID: <000801bed3a8$9dc8c6a0$61f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: John E. Simpson 

>So (acknowledging that you mean it to apply only to XML schemas, and
that
>the following examples don't conform to legitimate XML DTD syntax)
you're
>suggesting element content models such as:
>
> 
>
>(The king element may contain any other single element)

Good examples.

> 
>
>(The hands element may contain any *pair* of other elements)
>
> 
>
>(The citizens element may contain any number of child elements, but
each
>child may appear only once within the citizens element)

Or maybe these could be split into SET and BAG in RDF fashion.

>Like that? These would all be subtypes of ANY, no?

If you like subtyping, sure. If you like extensibility, then I suppose
they
are extensions of EMPTY.

Rick Jelliffe


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Wed Jul 21 20:47:46 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BBFD1D@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Arthur Rother [mailto:arthur.rother@ovidius.com]

> For sure the LF vs CRLF and CR in theory (the spec) and for viewing in
> Notepad is all correctly debated or noted, but pragmatically, 
> does this
> really provide a problem? The encoding for XML is UTF-8. So 
> in allmost any
> text viewer/editor, in normal(?) circumstances it will show strange in
> these applications, since they do not understand UTF-8 (in windows). 
> The API on XML, for example DOM, is also UTF-8, which most 
> applications may
> treat as 7-bit ASCII, but for encoding generic applications 
> this should be
> treated as UTF-8. Windows is not UTF-8 aware, so it has to be 
> converted to
> Unicode anyway.


Actually, the XML spec states in section 2.2 that "A character is an atomic
unit of text as specified by ISO/IEC 10646" - in other words, Unicode.
Since there are different ways of storing Unicode characters, XML processors
are allowed to accept Unicode in any of these formats, and it even goes on
to state that "all XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16
encodings of 10646" (emphasis added), since [I believe] UTF-8 and UTF-16 are
the most common ways to store Unicode characters.  
      

Windows NT is perfectly Unicode aware, and I routinely view XML documents in
Notepad on my NT box.  All of the characters are fine, with the only problem
being the LF-CRLF-CR problem that started this thread in the first place.  I
am 87% sure that Windows 95 uses the windows-1250 or windows-1252 character
set internally, although it may also have some level of Unicode awareness.
(I'm not sure about that.)  And I haven't the faintest idea what character
set Windows 98 uses natively, although I'd like to hope that it's Unicode.

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From BMurri at wavephore.net  Wed Jul 21 21:10:05 1999
From: BMurri at wavephore.net (Blair Murri)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <31AA4BE99284D211B47A006008172E20016E78@MAILMAN>

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Hunter, David [SMTP:dhunter@Mobility.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, July 21, 1999 12:48 PM
> To:	xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject:	RE: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
> 
> Windows NT is perfectly Unicode aware, and I routinely view XML documents
> in
> Notepad on my NT box.  All of the characters are fine, with the only
> problem
> being the LF-CRLF-CR problem that started this thread in the first place.
> I
> am 87% sure that Windows 95 uses the windows-1250 or windows-1252
> character
> set internally, although it may also have some level of Unicode awareness.
> (I'm not sure about that.)  And I haven't the faintest idea what character
> set Windows 98 uses natively, although I'd like to hope that it's Unicode.
> 
	Windows 98 is like Windows 95, but here is the kicker -- both can
convert from the codepage that they are setup with to/from unicode.  This is
significant because COM on Win9x as well as NT is *ALL* unicode internally
(thus, MS's DOM (being a COM object) does everything internally in unicode
all the time (although I must plead ignorance as to its usage of the
LF-CRLF-CR thing that this thread is about).

Blair L. Murri
Sr. Programmer/etc.
WavePhore, Inc.

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jul 21 21:27:01 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990721122912.01206ec0@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

At 02:48 PM 7/21/99 -0400, Hunter, David wrote:
>"all XML processors must accept the UTF-8 and UTF-16
>encodings of 10646" (emphasis added), since [I believe] UTF-8 and UTF-16 are
>the most common ways to store Unicode characters.  

Unfortunately, no.  I suspect that if you took a worldwide inventory, the
four most common formats would be:

1. A Microsoft codepage that is almost but not quite ISO-8859-1
2. ASCII
3. EBCDIC
4. Shift-JIS

(not necessarily in that order)

Pure ASCII is UTF-8 as it sits, but as the Net becomes less and 
less Anglocentric, there is amazingly little pure ASCII being created
any more.

The XML spec chose UTF-8 and UTF-16 because unlike the other specimens
in the list above, they can encode data containing arbitrary mixtures
of different character sets.  -Tim


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From MEdson at walldata.com  Wed Jul 21 23:05:35 1999
From: MEdson at walldata.com (MEdson@walldata.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <65D9F02E69E3D111AF510004AC62F0A3550A3E@EXCHBHAM01.walldata.com>

So do you believe that both DTDs and XML Schemas are necessary?  Would you
please elaborate on what advantage DTDs have over Schemas and if possible
explain why DTDs were NOT designed to be written in XML?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	DuCharme, Robert [SMTP:DuCharmR@moodys.com]
> Sent:	Wednesday, July 21, 1999 9:53 AM
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
> 
> >I challenge anyone to translate an XML Schema to a mental
> >model without the aid of either paper or machine. 
> 
> I'll go with the machine, since I have one on my desk, and it has lots of
> software on it capable of reading and manipulating XML documents. 
> 
> When XMI came out, I had just been studying up on UML, and I thought
> "Cool!
> I'll print out the DTD so that I can look it over on the subway ride
> home!"
> When I saw how big the XMI DTD was, I decided not to print it out--I
> prefer
> not to spend that much time in the subway. My point is that many XML 1.0
> DTDs are too big to form mental models of as well (especially when they
> use
> lots of parameter entities), but they're still useful in serious
> production
> environments, and schema that can't be understood by a visual skimming
> will
> still have a lot going for them. The added machine-readability of schemas
> has many system development payoffs, not least of which is that it will be
> more extensible than SGML-style declarations--once it's in place, adding
> new
> features to it will be easier than adding them to XML 1.0 DTD syntax.
> 
> It's adding up to having all the makings of a religious issue, which is
> too
> bad, because two years from now people will be getting work done using
> both
> styles. Each will be more appropriate for certain kinds of projects. 
> 
> Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob            snee.com>  "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
> spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jul 21 23:42:34 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990721144431.0123ea70@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

At 02:00 PM 7/21/99 -0700, MEdson@walldata.com wrote:
>So do you believe that both DTDs and XML Schemas are necessary?  Would you
>please elaborate on what advantage DTDs have over Schemas and if possible
>explain why DTDs were NOT designed to be written in XML?

DTDs are necessary because you need some formal way to describe (at least
part of) your data design.  They have their current syntax because the ISO 
committee that designed SGML thought it was better that way, and XML 
inherited them from SGML.  XML Schemas are said by many to be necessary for 
a variety of reasons, including most prominently datatyping and the use of 
XML syntax.

The most important difference between DTDs and syntax is that are here now
and work now and standardized now.  Admittedly one could wish for something
better but until it arrives DTDs are what we have. -Tim

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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Wed Jul 21 23:49:16 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:13:59 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B5B@MDYNYCMSX1>

>So do you believe that both DTDs and XML Schemas are necessary?  

I believe that they both can be useful in XML application development. 

>Would you please elaborate on what advantage DTDs have over Schemas 

>From my response to Ben Hui's original question last Friday:

The W3C Schema proposal is an in-progress moving target. In pursuit of its
goal of improving on XML 1.0 DTDs, the one public draft available so far
specifies many new features, and the design of these features is bound to
change as the spec evolves toward Recommendation status. XML 1.0 DTD syntax
is a stable standard that, considering its roots in SGML, has been used and
implemented for years, and that is a huge advantage.

(To add a little bit, another advantage is their greater concision.)

>explain why DTDs were NOT designed to be written in XML?

Design goal 3 of the XML spec
(http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-origin-goals) states that "XML shall be
compatible with SGML." When the spec was written, XML DTDs expressed as
well-formed elements would have violated this design goal. Since the XML
spec became a Recommendation,  Annex K was added to the SGML spec; this
allows for the possibility of an SGML document with no explicit markup
declarations (see
http://architag.com/newsletter/Article.html?v=12&i=7&p=1&s=1 for more on
this), which opened up the possibility of XML documents with no SGML-style
DTD still being compatible with the ISO 8879 SGML specification. 

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob             "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jul 22 03:46:59 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Announcement: XMLWriter and XMLNorm
Message-ID: <14230.30652.604635.738763@localhost.localdomain>

Since I need them for several projects, I've created a couple of
smallish Java classes.  One is a DocumentHandler and DTDHandler that
writes an XML document back out to a Java Writer (like James Clark's
XMLTest, only much more configurable), and one is an application for
normalizing XML documents.  The classes are

  com.megginson.sax.XMLWriter
  com.megginson.sax.XMLNorm

Since it's short, here's the README itself:

************************************************************************
com.megginson.sax.XMLWriter - a class for writing XML documents
************************************************************************

This distribution contains a simple class,
com.megginson.sax.XMLWriter, which writes an XML document based
(mostly) on SAX events.  The writer implements the SAX 1.0
DocumentHandler and DTDHandler interfaces, and is highly configurable;
using flags, the application can specify any of the following actions:

- escape non-ASCII characters as character references
- add newlines in tags to improve readability
- include a simple DOCTYPE declaration, with any notation and
  unparsed entity declarations
- omit the XML declaration
- display attributes in random, unsorted order (for efficiency)
- attempt level-3 HTML browser compatibility, by killing the XML
  declaration, DOCTYPE declaration, and processing instructions, and
  adding a space before the closing delimiter of empty element tags

The output goes to a Writer provided by the application, and can use
any character encoding supported by the Java installation.


************************************************************************
com.megginson.sax.XMLNorm - an application for normalizing XML
                            documents.
************************************************************************

This distribution also contains an application,
com.megginson.sax.XMLNorm, that produces a normalized version of an
XML document, like James Clark's XMLTest class.  The usage is

  java com.megginson.sax.XMLNorm [opts] 

The following options are available:

  -a: escape non-ASCII characters
  -d: include DOCTYPE declaration
  -h: display this help
  -n: add newlines in tags for readability
  -x: don't include the XML declaration
  -u: unsorted attributes (random order)
  -3: level-3 HTML browser compatibility kludges
  -o : print output to the specified file
  -e : use the specified output encoding

If you have a network connection, you can try the following:

  java com.megginson.sax.XMLNorm http://home.sprynet.com/~dmeggins/texts/darkness/darkness.xml

(You can also try for other, shorter XML documents.)

By default, this application attempts to use Microstar's free AElfred
parser (http://www.microstar.com/), but you can use the
org.xml.sax.parser to point it to any other SAX-conformant parser.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Megginson, david@megginson.com
21 July 1999


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From srn at techno.com  Thu Jul 22 06:18:28 1999
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Metastructures 1999
In-Reply-To: <14090.34773.868152.951396@localhost.localdomain> (message from
	David Megginson on Tue, 6 Apr 1999 18:17:21 -0400 (EDT))
References: <199904062147.QAA01662@bruno.techno.com> <14090.34773.868152.951396@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <199907220407.XAA16365@bruno.techno.com>


                GCA Metastructures 1999

                  August 16-18, 1999

  (followed by XML Developers' Conference, August 19-20)

               Montreal, Quebec, Canada

THE PROGRAM: http://www.gca.org/conf/meta99/met99pgrm.htm


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From florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com  Thu Jul 22 08:32:50 1999
From: florin_popescu at nl.compuware.com (Florin Popescu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: expat on VMS or AS/400
In-Reply-To: <14229.49365.953238.434664@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <001301bed40c$93dbe370$0b1a10ac@nl.compuware.com>

Did anyone ported the J. Clark expat on VMS or AS/400? 

I do not have experience with these platforms and 
I do not know if it is possible or not to do it and how difficult is it. 

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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Thu Jul 22 10:49:50 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: DOM SAX? which one and why? and where is the overview NOTE to all this XML?
References: 
Message-ID: <000001bed41f$617cdc00$334ffea9@litebook>

Having looked hard at this issue I will be using a DOM parser.

I will be using DTD only to provide Entities and the properties of the
fields of those entities

I will be using an XML document to then provide a document data structure
where the "entities are linked together to provide a structure to the
document.

I have not yet worked out how or which NOTE will bets help this.

Then I will use some sort of XSCHEMA where the structure is enhanced so data
can be added to it. I do not know which sort this is.

I see that I have to have three levels before I cab get data into the
document.

The world as I see it is made up of entities, entities together produce an
item.(DTD)  ( ie. Person details plus his address details etc make up the
item Person) ITEM PERSON = entity person + entity address + entity phone +
entity email etc..(XML) like XML-DATA to link entities into items.

Data entry requires a schema that understands this
HTML requires a verified XSL that takes the data and displayes it as a HTML
screen.

The overview of XML and the uses of the various parts is very difficult to
find. It would be nice if there was somewhere some note on how the various
standards could be used and relate to each other, ONE such over view is
provided by ATL at www.atl-systems.co.jp and this is only for that project.





----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Harris 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 10:05 PM


> I came up against this issue in some work I've been doing recently on Java
> XML parser performance, would be interested in comments etc.
>
> There are two main APIs for applications that process XML documents - DOM
> (Document Object Model) and SAX (Simple API to XML). DOM involves
> constructing a tree of Nodes from the XML document, and then using a
simple
> API to walk the tree and extract information from it. SAX is an event
based
> API designed to fire user-written code as elements etc. are encountered in
> the parsing of the document. SAX is very useful when the document may be
> too large to fit into memory.
>
> Validation of a document means ensuring that the document conforms
entirely
> to the DTD for that document. In practice, this means that the entire
> document has to fit into memory since validation cannot be completed until
> the whole document has been parsed. This fits well with the DOM model, but
> is somewhat in opposition to the SAX philosophy where most of the action
is
> done during the document parse.
>
> This is not to say that you cannot use a validating parser with SAX, in
> fact all the major parsers provide such capability. It's quite possible to
> execute all your business logic during the SAX parse, and then throw it
> away if the parse fails at the end of the document.
>
> My question is really, for those of you who are writing XML processors
> (i.e. applications that use XML), what mode(s) do you use, and do you find
> the need for a validating SAX parser?
>
> It's interesting to note that, in IBM's xml4j parser, the SAX parser is by
> default non-validating, and the DOM parser is by default validating.
>
> c
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual  sender,
> except  where  the  sender  specifically  states them to be the views of
> Reuters Ltd.
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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>
>



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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jul 22 14:55:08 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: New LT XML release
Message-ID: <199907221257.NAA26043@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

The HCRC Language Technology Group are pleased to announce the
availability of version 1.1 of LT XML.  As well as numerous bug fixes
and improvements compared with version 1.0, this release includes
optional validation of XML documents.  Various changes have been mode
for thread-safety but these are still untested.  

LT XML is both a set of command-line/console XML applications and a C
language library supporting a powerful API for new application
development.  It is available free for evaluation and non-commercial
use.  For an overview and information about licences, including
licences for commercial use, see

    http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/software/xml/

The v1.1 release comes in two versions:

 * A source version for Unix platforms, with straight-forward
   compilation and installation procedures;

 * A source plus DLLs and executables version for WIN32 platforms.

Both versions include extensive documentation of the tools and the
API, together with detailed examples of how to build your own
application using the API.

The functionality of the tools in this release includes:

 * Text extraction
 * Powerful markup-aware 'grep' (search)
 * Down-translation
 * Tokenisation
 * Sorting
 * Transclusion using a subset of XML-link

The API allows applications to choose, or even switch, between an
event-oriented and a tree-oriented view of XML documents.



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From fultoncr at ucarb.com  Thu Jul 22 15:33:26 1999
From: fultoncr at ucarb.com (Fulton CR (Charles))
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: filters x --> cml
Message-ID: <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FCF@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>

I'm currently trying to write some Java based programs to get some chemistry
structure file formats converted into cml. I was wondering if other had
already done the same. Specifically any guassian 9x --> cml examples would
be great to see.

[Sorry if this is the wrong list, but cml is very related to xml]

thanks in advance,

-Charlie.
----------------------------
Charles Fulton
Information Technician
Union Carbide Corporation
S. Charleston, WV p:(304-747-3175)

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From ricker at xmls.com  Thu Jul 22 15:30:42 1999
From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Need Help in WIDL
In-Reply-To: <37944E73.5CC917A5@iii.org.tw>
Message-ID: <199907221333.JAA07603@mail.his.com>

I recommend you use XML-RPC instead. See:

http://www.xml-rpc.com

Jeffrey Ricker
XMLSolutions Corp.
ricker@xmls.com


At 06:24 PM 7/20/99 +0800, Chenping Tsou wrote:
>Hi All:
>
>I am just wondering if anyboy out there is using WIDL. I try to using
>sereral validating parser(IBM, JAVAX...) to parse the sample shipping
>document. But I can EVEN not get the DTD pass the validating process.
>
>in the line
>
>TYPE (String | String[] | String[][]) "String"
>
>and
>
> NULLOK             #BOOLEAN
>
>Any help is appreciated.
>
>Chenping Tsou
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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>subscribe xml-dev-digest
>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 


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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jul 22 15:47:14 1999
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Need Help in WIDL
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD4885338A35A@SENMAIL3>

On that note, does anyone use WDDX for server data exchange?
cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
President, AIP Scotland.
ceo@citix.com
http://www.citix.com

Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com]
> Sent:	22 July 1999 14:34
> To:	Chenping Tsou; Xml List (E-mail)
> Subject:	Re: Need Help in WIDL
> 
> I recommend you use XML-RPC instead. See:
> 
> http://www.xml-rpc.com
> 
> Jeffrey Ricker
> XMLSolutions Corp.
> ricker@xmls.com
> 
> 
> At 06:24 PM 7/20/99 +0800, Chenping Tsou wrote:
> >Hi All:
> >
> >I am just wondering if anyboy out there is using WIDL. I try to using
> >sereral validating parser(IBM, JAVAX...) to parse the sample shipping
> >document. But I can EVEN not get the DTD pass the validating process.
> >
> >in the line
> >
> >TYPE (String | String[] | String[][]) "String"
> >
> >and
> >
> > NULLOK             #BOOLEAN
> >
> >Any help is appreciated.
> >
> >Chenping Tsou
> >
> >
> >
> >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> >(un)subscribe xml-dev
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> message;
> >subscribe xml-dev-digest
> >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> > 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From ricker at xmls.com  Thu Jul 22 15:55:42 1999
From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: EDI to XML?
In-Reply-To: <000001bed305$c0d1ba60$3f01a8c0@NCOMMAND>
Message-ID: <199907221357.JAA26175@mail.his.com>

XMLSolutions has built an EDI2XML parser for e-commerce. See:

http://www.xmls.com/software/exeter.html

Jeffrey Ricker
XMLSolutions Corp.
ricker@xmls.com


At 04:15 PM 7/20/99 -0700, Alex Feygin wrote:
>
>Are there any tools out there to aid in the convertion of
>EDI documents to XML?
>
>thanks,
>alex
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> 


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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk  Thu Jul 22 15:55:40 1999
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: filters x --> cml
In-Reply-To: 
 <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FCF@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>
References: 
 <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FCF@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>
Message-ID: 

>I'm currently trying to write some Java based programs to get some chemistry
>structure file formats converted into cml. I was wondering if other had
>already done the same. Specifically any guassian 9x --> cml examples would
>be great to see.
>
>[Sorry if this is the wrong list, but cml is very related to xml]


Steve Zara here has written a Java based PDB to CML converter on

http://www.xml-cml.org/ 

where the Java source, and the  CML DTD etc will be available
from midnight tonite

I believe converters written  in Perl exist at the VSMS site at

http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/biodom/

we would greatly welcome any initiative to produce a  G94/98
converter.

Also on the  cards is a  MOPAC2000 converter (a little way off yet).

finally, Peter Murray-Rust wrote a batch of converters about  2
years ago which are in need of updating. More details of those on
request




Dr Henry Rzepa,  Dept. Chemistry,  Imperial College,  LONDON SW7 2AY;
mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk; Tel  (44) 171 594 5774; Fax: (44) 171 594 5804.
URL: http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/ 

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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jul 22 16:45:30 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Announcement: XMLWriter and XMLNorm
In-Reply-To: <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FD0@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>
References: <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FD0@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>
Message-ID: <14231.11950.976697.819071@localhost.localdomain>

Fulton CR (Charles) writes:

 > Please excuse my obvious ignorance... I am interested in using
 > these classes, but I can't find them anywhere on your site? I
 > couldn't see in the original post where to get them. Are they
 > publicly available? Just curious.

Apologies.  Here's the URL:

  http://www.megginson.com/Software/xmlwriter-19990721.zip


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From fultoncr at ucarb.com  Thu Jul 22 17:05:33 1999
From: fultoncr at ucarb.com (Fulton CR (Charles))
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: filters x --> cml
Message-ID: <47F7EAA0389AD011840500805FEAB9C602CC5FD1@sctms01.sct.ucarb.com>

Henry,

Thanks for the response.

> Steve Zara here has written a Java based PDB to CML converter on
> 
> http://www.xml-cml.org/ 
> 
> where the Java source, and the  CML DTD etc will be available
> from midnight tonite
> 
great that will be a good start. I'll keep a watch out for it. I think the
DTD (5-15-99 v) is already up though, or is this a new one?

> finally, Peter Murray-Rust wrote a batch of converters about  2
> years ago which are in need of updating. More details of those on
> request
> 
Yes I would really like to see some of those converters, or details about
them. I have seen mention of converter tools somewhere in the faqs, Jumbo,
or the new Part I: basic princ. document I just can't remember where. From
what I could tell there is a forthcoming paper, that is going to talk about
some of these converters and the DTD in detail?

I also wanted to mention that the Part I: Basic Principles document is
great, having read a lot of books and websites on xml lately, this gave me a
really good outlook on how cml is tied with xml, write programs to use it,
etc. Looking forward to seeing parts 2-? Any idea on when your paper in
Journal of Chem. Info and Comp. Sci. will be released?

We have been spending quite a bit of time here getting "up to speed" with
xml/cml and for me using Java to develop applications for that purpose. I am
interested in writing converters for DMOL3 (car), Gaussian 94/98 (not sure -
fchk or output), and the CAChe (molstruct) file format. I would prefer to
write them in Java. I think that cml will be the "glue" data format for the
overload of current structures and data that we currently have. 

Have you seen the JMol project? http://www.openscience.org/jmol , this is
sort of a java replacement for xmol. It is a very nice program and coming
along very nicely. They have incorporated cml very well. Ofcourse you
probably knew all of that already.

thanks for the info,

-charlie.


----------------------------
Charles Fulton
Information Technician
Union Carbide Corporation
S. Charleston, WV p:(304-747-3175)







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From jesmith at kaon.com  Thu Jul 22 17:45:25 1999
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Cool Emacs Modes?
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990722114859.013f36f0@tiac.net>

Gang,

I finally got a genuine emacs (20.3.1) running on my windows machine (no
more bad DevStudio "epsilon emulation" for me!), and I notice it has an
SGML mode built-in, which works very nicely on my XML docs.

What I would *LOVE* would be if emacs would do validation checking of my
XML document against my DTD on the fly; maybe even tell me about attribute
default values and such.  Has anyone written the necessary .el to do these
sorts of things?


-Joshua Smith


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From simon at openthought.com  Thu Jul 22 18:43:34 1999
From: simon at openthought.com (Simon Hargreaves)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Using DDML with XSL
Message-ID: <37975729.FCBF63B5@openthought.com>

Is anyone using XSL to produce a HTML form for data entry given a DDML
document.

I'm writing a web publishing tool using XML for all the definable
structures and content and I need a simple way to generate HTML input
forms for content submission from a DDML doc.

            Simon...



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From mingfai at andrew.cmu.edu  Fri Jul 23 04:54:19 1999
From: mingfai at andrew.cmu.edu (Ming Fai)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:00 2004
Subject: Reload in XML
Message-ID: <003f01bed4b7$83ecf200$e4224b0a@ncb.gov.sg>

Hi, I have an XML file that uses a CSS file for styling, by having this line
in my XML file:
 
 
 
 The problem is 'main.css' changes very frequently, and thus when I access
the XML file, the cached version of 'main.css' is used instead of the most
up-to-date version. Is there anyway I can force the browser to reload
'main.css' everytime I access the XML file?
 
 Ming Fai




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From tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net  Fri Jul 23 08:18:19 1999
From: tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net (Tan Yiping)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
Message-ID: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A4CA@SERVER1>

Does anybody know such a tool that converts C struct definition to XML
in an XML schema language? Such a tool would help me to transfer my
in-memory data to a remote application in XML documents.

Thanks in advance.
Tan Yiping

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From coopercc at netheaven.com  Fri Jul 23 13:04:54 1999
From: coopercc at netheaven.com (Clark Cooper)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Version 2.25 of Perl module XML::Parser released
Message-ID: <199907231107.HAA00399@camel>


I've uploaded version 2.25 of XML::Parser to CPAN. This version contains
Version 19990709 of expat.

This is mainly a bug fix release. But there's also an additional external
entity handler that handles general external entities (deals with URIs
other than "file:..."). If the LWP package is installed, this handler
is registered as the external entity handler instead of the file only
handler.

Since I had problems sending out my mail announcement for version 2.24, I
want to reiterate that XML::Parser now expands parameter entities and
reads external DTDs if the option ParseParamEnt is set.

2.25 Fri Jul 23 06:23:43 EDT 1999
	- Now using Version 19990709 of expat. No local patches.
	- Numerous people reported a SEGV problem when running t/cdata
	  on various platforms and versions of perl. The problem was
	  introduced with the setHandlers change. In some cases an
	  un-initialized value was being returned.
	- Added an additional external entity handler, lwp_ext_ent_handler,
	  that deals with general URIs. It is installed instead of the
	  "file only" handler if the LWP package is installed.

-- 
Clark Cooper		Software Engineer	Home:   coopercc@netheaven.com
			Schenectady, NY	USA	Work:   cccooper@ltionline.com

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From hunters at businesslogic.com  Fri Jul 23 17:13:10 1999
From: hunters at businesslogic.com (Steve Hunter)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema
References: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A4CA@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <379886C3.16AA2021@businesslogic.com>

> Does anybody know such a tool that converts C struct definition to XML
> in an XML schema language? Such a tool would help me to transfer my
> in-memory data to a remote application in XML documents.
>
> Thanks in advance.
> Tan Yiping

Closest thing I know is WDDX (www.wddx.org).  But... you have to build a struct in memory
first, then serialize it to XML.  It can be deserialized in Java, Perl, anything that knows
COM like ASP/VB, etc...

--Steve
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From crism at oreilly.com  Fri Jul 23 17:21:38 1999
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: PCDATA
In-Reply-To: <37937748.5E7D954E@ncmail.net> (message from John Martin on Mon,
	19 Jul 1999 15:06:48 -0400)
Message-ID: <199907231522.LAA16478@ruby.ora.com>

[John Martin]
> I have heard three different definitions of PCDATA so far.

Actually, you've heard one through two filters, and a rumor of another.

> 1)  The book called XML: A Primer by Simon St. Laurent defines it as
> follows:
> 
> "parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text
> that will be examined by the parser for entities and markup.  Parsed
> character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters; these
> need to be represented by the & < and > entities,
> respectively.
> 
> 2)  Microstar's Near & Far Designer defines it in its help screen as
> follows:
> 
> "Processable Character Data (PCDATA)" - Indicates content that can
> be analyzed and processed.  Mark-up entities will be recognized
> within the text.

These are not incompatible, except for the expansion of the
abbreviation.  On that, Simon is right.  Try:

"parsed character data (#PCDATA)" - Parsed character data is text that
can be analyzed by the parser for entities and markup and processed.
Parsed character data should not contain any &, <, or > characters;
these need to be represented by the & < and > entities,
respectively.  Mark-up entities will be recognized within the text.

> 3)  A colleague of mine swears he saw it defined as "printable
> character data," but can't remember where he saw it.

He may well have seen that, but it was wrong.  There are many weird
interpretations of XML out there, especially from the first crush of
books on the subject.

-Chris
-- 

http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>

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From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com  Fri Jul 23 19:05:26 1999
From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E5E46D2@crusher.jcals.csc.com>

Tan Yiping wrote:
> 
> Does anybody know such a tool that converts C struct definition to XML
> in an XML schema language? Such a tool would help me to transfer my
> in-memory data to a remote application in XML documents.

   I think it's a bit more than what you're looking for. But, I just read
some literature on a product called "evolve" from Vertex Industries,
http://www.vertexindustries.com that cliams it does just that (among many
other things). If you could get a hold of just the piece you're interested
in ...

Mike

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jul 23 21:32:36 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
References: 
Message-ID: <000001bed542$e8f54ae0$d706aace@brownell.org>

An interesting option:  call the Java code from PERL ... after compiling it
with the"GCJ" native Java compiler that's in the latest GCC (2.95/EGCS).

I understand folk have actually done the "call Java from PERL" bit using
that
compiler, though I've not done it yet myself.  GCJ seems to work in two
modes,
one where it works like "javac" to generate class files, and the other where
it compiles to native code using the same code generator used by C/C++/...
in
that version of GCC.

A minor gotcha -- if you use GCJ as a "javac" replacement you might run into
the issue of it not yet understanding a number of widely used Java 1.1
language
updates, like anonymous arrays, inner classes, and such.  I think the
workaround
there is to use the JDK 1.2 version of "javac" (it's the most correct
compiler,
I ran into problems with three or four others) and then compile those
classfiles.

Also, since this is basically a new runtime ("libgcj" being roughly what JDK
1.1
has) and compiler, it's not yet rock solid.  But for many of the XML-DEV
community, I'd say it can often be an option!

- Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: Nicolas MONNET 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:18 AM
Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?


>
> I want to use XSL from within a Perl program. So far I have only seen Java
> based XSL engines, and maybe msxsl.dll, which is not of great use for me
> since I'm not running Windows.
>
> Is there any other implementation (or beiginning thereof), available in
> source form? (Free preferably).
>
>


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From cerium at ibm.net  Fri Jul 23 21:43:54 1999
From: cerium at ibm.net (John Hicks)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
In-Reply-To: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A4CA@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <000301bed543$fba4f6d0$9500a4d8@c31cj.cerium>

Hi Tan:

> Does anybody know such a tool that converts C struct definition to XML
> in an XML schema language?

Maybe our XMLOutline.  Converts any tab-indented structure to DTD and XML.
Send me an example and let's see.

John Hicks

Cerium Component Software
XMLOutline | XMLdb | XMLServlet
Fax 707-222-7651
http://ceriumworks.com
"Software as a conversation with a community."




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From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net  Fri Jul 23 22:03:56 1999
From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Separation of Content and Structure
Message-ID: <000301bed547$7e24fc60$0a000a0a@csg>

But for the preponderance of redundant questions or the assumption of same
may we consider the questions, "How might the relational database remain
useful to content publishers when we are motivated to use XML to separate
content from structure"? and "What will become of the relational database"?

Do any of those who have a command of the use of XML remain using relational
databases and in which context as a development tool might the relational
database remain useful?

-- Regards
Clinton Gallagher, WebMaster
http://www.metromilwaukee.com


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Fri Jul 23 22:40:17 1999
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Separation of Content and Structure
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BBFD29@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

> From: WorldNet [mailto:csgallagher@worldnet.att.net]
> 
> But for the preponderance of redundant questions or the 
> assumption of same
> may we consider the questions, "How might the relational 
> database remain
> useful to content publishers when we are motivated to use XML 
> to separate
> content from structure"? and "What will become of the 
> relational database"?
> 
> Do any of those who have a command of the use of XML remain 
> using relational
> databases and in which context as a development tool might 
> the relational
> database remain useful?

I don't come from the "content publisher" world, but from the "web
application" world.  i.e., applications that run over the web, or run using
web technologies.

In that context, I would state that the decision to separate
content from structure has nothing to do with choosing a database.  The fact
is, you need to store your data somewhere and access it quickly, and
relational databases have proven themselves to be fast and powerful tools
for doing just that.  It's what they were invented for, it's what they're
good at, and XML or no XML, there's no reason not to use them for that.

In my view of the computing world, databases are used for storing/retrieving
information, and XML is used for communicating it.  (This is a very BROAD
view, and one with many, MANY exceptions.)  With databases becoming "XML
aware", this will perhaps become even easier.  (Oracle is now XML aware, and
Microsoft's SQL Server will be... soon.)  But, the fact is, it's a pretty
Mickey Mouse operation to write a specific data-service component for your
application which an takes an XML stream and pops the data into SQL
statements to be put in your relational database, or formats the results of
a SQL statement and returns it as XML.

That is not to say, however, that you can't store XML in your
database.  Perhaps if I have an XML format which describes a Person, like
so:


	
	
	
		
	


and I know that
a)  I'll always want that data in one big chunk
b)  For my application, I'll only ever need to do a search by lastname, and
never any other fields

Then I can design a relational table which has two columns, lastname and
XML.  In this particular case, that looks like pretty bad normalization, I
admit :-), but you can easily see cases where you might want to store
"blocks" of data in one XML "chunk", to be easily retrieved.  (SELECT XML
FROM tablename WHERE lastname='Hunter')

So I think the relational database has a major part to play in many -if not
most- web applications.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mediaserv.com
MediaServ Information Architects
http://www.MediaServ.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sat Jul 24 00:40:17 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Separation of Content and Structure
In-Reply-To: <000301bed547$7e24fc60$0a000a0a@csg>
Message-ID: <199907232242.SAA18686@hesketh.net>

At 03:11 PM 7/23/99 -0500, Clinton Gallagher wrote:
>Do any of those who have a command of the use of XML remain using relational
>databases and in which context as a development tool might the relational
>database remain useful?

If your information is highly structured and can be fit into the normalized
table structure of relational databases easily, you'll probably find you're
best off using a relational database rather than piles of
difficult-to-search XML files or even a hierarchical object store.  They're
much quicker for raw search and retrieval if the information fits the rules.

On the other hand, if you've got lots of information that's more
'document-like', with unpredictable lengths of content, flexible structures
for marking up information on an as-needed basis, or information that shows
up in formats you don't always control, then XML, possibly stored in a
flexible hierarchical data manager of some sort, is probably a good idea.

In either case, it's not that hard to get your information into and out of
XML when needed.  Store the info the way that's most efficient for your
needs, and build bridges between your storage and transmission as required.

At least that's my take.

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From donpark at quake.net  Sat Jul 24 17:09:47 1999
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B5B@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: <000001bed5e7$2f2b96a0$d1d3fea9@w21tp>

It is my view that the XML Schema will win over after six months to a year
of further confusion over schema format and continued maturation of the W3C
XML Schema spec.  Uncertainty in the dynamics of change in this area seems
rather low, at least to me.

Don Park
Docuverse


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From coopercc at netheaven.com  Sat Jul 24 18:28:09 1999
From: coopercc at netheaven.com (Clark Cooper)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Bug in XML::Parser declaration handling
Message-ID: <199907241615.MAA01019@camel>


Ken Beesley , discovered that, in Version 2.25
of XML::Parser, the Attlist and Element handlers aren't being called
for declarations in the external DTD when there is no internal subset.

So, for example, given these files:

junk.dtd:
  

junk.xml>
  
  

junk2.xml:
  
  

This script:
################
use XML::Parser;
$p = new XML::Parser(ParseParamEnt => 1,
                     Handlers => {Start => sub {shift; print "Start: @_\n"},
                                  Attlist => sub {shift; print "Att: @_\n"}});
$p->parsefile('junk.xml');
print "--Next File--\n";
$p->parsefile('junk2.xml');
################

produces this output:
================
Start: foo bar junk
--Next File--
Att: foo bar CDATA 'junk'
Start: foo bar junk
================

So, until I get this bug fixed, a workaround is to put in an empty internal
subset as necessary.

-- 
Clark Cooper		Software Engineer	Home:   coopercc@netheaven.com
			Schenectady, NY	USA	Work:   cccooper@ltionline.com

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sat Jul 24 20:12:26 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: (untitled: DOM and SAX models)
References: 
Message-ID: <02da01bed600$e4d10440$ee07aace@brownell.org>

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Harris 
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, July 21, 1999 5:05 AM


> ...
>
> Validation of a document means ensuring that the document conforms
entirely
> to the DTD for that document.

Actually, it only means determining whether it conforms.  "Ensuring" is an
application's option; perhaps by choosing to reject nonconforming documents
rather than just to report nonconformance as potential trouble.


>    In practice, this means that the entire
> document has to fit into memory since validation cannot be completed until
> the whole document has been parsed. This fits well with the DOM model,

I can't see why, since DOM doesn't say a thing about validating or about
building a DOM tree from XML text, or even the relationship between DOM and
an XML processor (~= parser).  You may be assuming some particular API is
(or isn't) part of DOM -- careful!


>     but
> is somewhat in opposition to the SAX philosophy where most of the action
is
> done during the document parse.

The issue would not relate to validation, though; it'd be the architectural
issue of pipelined processing that don't impose data structure models (SAX)
or highly distinct stages segregated using one data structure (DOM).


> My question is really, for those of you who are writing XML processors
> (i.e. applications that use XML), what mode(s) do you use, and do you find
> the need for a validating SAX parser?

I use both. Note that the XML specification talks about the processor
as distinct from the application, so your terminology isn't quite right.
Not many people are writing XML "processors" any more; they're using ones
already written, as components of their applications.

For some reason, I tend to use validation more often with SAX than with
DOM, but that's probably just because of what I've done recently.

- Dave




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From jesmith at kaon.com  Sun Jul 25 00:13:40 1999
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: Cool Emacs Modes?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990722114859.013f36f0@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990724181548.00783e44@tiac.net>

Answering my own question: Yes!  PSGML is a very cool emacs mode for
editing XML documents.

But I have a question about one of the "trouble spots" PSGML reported in my
XML doc:

Foo end-tag implied by Bar start-tag; not minimizable

It appears on a line which reads:


  v
  w

Eh?  Anybody know what that error means?  It looks like maybe an SGML thing
which is leaking into XML-mode perhaps?

Oh, and is there any way to tell C-c C-e to *not* insert all the default
values for the attributes?


-Joshua Smith


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From sunker at telkom.net  Sun Jul 25 08:16:25 1999
From: sunker at telkom.net (sunker@telkom.net)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: FW: xml-dev Digest V1 #339
Message-ID: <61D3A6AB14FED211856500001C055D9633DF89@FS01>

 http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/campus/7211

How about XLL ? when i tried to pull it in xsl the grouping in xml link
couldn't run well ? any body could help ?
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From ricko at allette.com.au  Sun Jul 25 12:10:55 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <006501bed686$bf5987b0$60f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>

 From: Don Park 

>It is my view that the XML Schema will win over after six months to a
year
>of further confusion over schema format and continued maturation of the
W3C
>XML Schema spec.  Uncertainty in the dynamics of change in this area
seems
>rather low, at least to me.

I remember seeing a headline from a PC magazine in about 1991 saying
"UNIX is
dead".  But here we are in the late 1990s and Linux installations
(supposedly) are
more than Win98 (in West Europe).

Uncertainty in the dynamics of change is prudent.  On the Internet,
there are
hard limits (in particular from bandwidth) which even the most assured
comments
from company spin doctors (I don't mean Don here) cannot overcome.

The XML Schema supporters have never made any response to questions
several people have raised over the last year questioning the
practicality
(*as a DTD replacement*) of a verbose syntax: who wants to download
a 100K schema for a 1K instance?

This size difference alone means that XML Schemas will often be used in
different circumstances to DTDs: the tradeoffs are different.  XML
Schemas cannot "win" because they run in a different race to DTDs.


Rick Jelliffe


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sun Jul 25 15:12:58 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:01 2004
Subject: XLL (was Re: FW: xml-dev Digest V1 #339)
In-Reply-To: <61D3A6AB14FED211856500001C055D9633DF89@FS01>
Message-ID: <199907251314.JAA14537@hesketh.net>

At 01:21 PM 7/25/99 +0700, sunker@telkom.net wrote:
> http://www.geocities.com/researchtriangle/campus/7211
>
>How about XLL ? when i tried to pull it in xsl the grouping in xml link
>couldn't run well ? any body could help ?

I couldn't find anything that looked like XLink on your site, so I'm not
sure what the question is.

In general, XLL is now called XLink.  There hasn't been a new working draft
since 3 March 1998.  A new draft is supposed to come out real soon now,
though that's been the case since April or so.

As for XSL and XLink, I don't think XSL provides an enormous amount of
support for XLink.  (This may have changed recently, of course.)  While you
can make things like XLink extended links function using XSL, the XSL draft
doesn't have a lot of tools for XLink processing in particular.  Given the
delays on the XLink draft, this is sad but not surprising.

You may want to ask more specific questions regarding XLink and XSL on the
XSL-list:

http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list


Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sun Jul 25 17:13:11 1999
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Minor updates to Building XML Applications
Message-ID: <199907251515.LAA16603@hesketh.net>

I've posted a new version of the prefs.java file from Chapter 20 of
Building XML Applications that works with Technology Release 2 of Sun's
ProjectX XML parsers. (The version in the book uses Early-Access 1.)  This
is a very simple class for managing preference files built with XML using
the DOM.  The constructor has changed slightly to accomodate changed
methods for loading XML documents.  Otherwise, it isn't a dramatic shift.

Also, I've added pointers to some work I've done based on the examples in
Chapter 19 that led to my XLinkFilter work.  When a new draft of XLink
appears, I'll be updating XLinkFilter and those examples yet again.

These materials are available at:

http://www.simonstl.com/buildxml/index.html#update

Simon St.Laurent
XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies
http://www.simonstl.com

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From tbray at textuality.com  Sun Jul 25 20:28:07 1999
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: BillG on XML schemas
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990725113034.0099a8c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca>

>From http://www.microsoft.com/msft/speech/analystmtg99/qafam99.htm

"We want to create a run time environment that supports Java,
 C, Visual Basic, and a new set of languages that are coming
 along that really deal with this XML schema issue, that really
 take data binding, which has been really the worst thing in
 development, where you have to go and find the data, find the
 format of the data, pull it in, transform it, and try to get it back
 out.  Most code is written around that.  And that impedance
 match, there are ways of taking some of the ideas that were
 around object database language couplings, and really getting
 those into the mainstream."

Not sure what it means, but it sounds good. -T.

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From coopercc at netheaven.com  Mon Jul 26 05:14:19 1999
From: coopercc at netheaven.com (Clark Cooper)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Version 2.26 of Perl module XML::Parser released
Message-ID: <199907260316.XAA02763@camel>


I've uploaded version 2.26 of XML::Parser to CPAN. This is a bug fix
release.

Here are the relevant parts of the Changes file:

2.26 Sun Jul 25 19:06:41 EDT 1999
	- Ken Beesley  discovered that
	  declarations in the external subset are not sent to registered
	  handlers when there is no internal subset.
	- Fixed parse_dtd to work when entity values or attribute defaults
	  are so large that they might be broken across multiple calls to
	  the default handler.
	- For lwp_ext_ent_handler, use URI::URL instead of URI so that old
	  5.004 installations will work with it.

-- 
Clark Cooper		Software Engineer	Home:   coopercc@netheaven.com
			Schenectady, NY	USA	Work:   cccooper@ltionline.com

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From egonw at sci.kun.nl  Mon Jul 26 10:33:00 1999
From: egonw at sci.kun.nl (E.L. Willighagen)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
Message-ID: <199907260835.KAA03321@studs3.sci.kun.nl>


there is actually a XSLT parser for Perl available since 
last week:

http://www.sci.kun.nl/sigma/Persoonlijk/egonw/xslt/

it is slow due to the XML::DOM trees, but it works...
We haven't tried precompiling the script.

Egon

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Mon Jul 26 11:20:46 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Separation of Content and Structure
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EFEA@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

> may we consider the questions, "How might the relational 
> database remain useful to content publishers when we are motivated to use
XML 
> to separate content from structure"? and "What will become of the 
> relational database"?

XML greatly increases the value of relational databases to content
publishers because it enables you to use an RDB to store objects that have a
less rigid structure than hitherto.  
 
> Do any of those who have a command of the use of XML remain 
> using relational databases and in which context as a development tool
might 
> the relational database remain useful?

In any context where you have lots of small textual items with similar
structure, e.g. classified advertisements, holding these as XML documents
within a relational database is an ideal architecture.

Actually XML has enabled us to increase our use of relational databases and
abandon the use of object databases for this task.

Mike Kay


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From edd at usefulinc.com  Mon Jul 26 11:42:00 1999
From: edd at usefulinc.com (Edd Dumbill)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <006501bed686$bf5987b0$60f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>; from Rick Jelliffe on Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 06:16:17PM +0800
References: <006501bed686$bf5987b0$60f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>
Message-ID: <19990726084215.P20609@heddley.com>

On Sun, Jul 25, 1999 at 06:16:17PM +0800, Rick Jelliffe wrote:
>  From: Don Park 
> 
> >It is my view that the XML Schema will win over after six months to a
> year
> >of further confusion over schema format and continued maturation of the
> W3C
> >XML Schema spec.  Uncertainty in the dynamics of change in this area
> seems
> >rather low, at least to me.
>
> [... deletia ...]
 
> This size difference alone means that XML Schemas will often be used in
> different circumstances to DTDs: the tradeoffs are different.  XML
> Schemas cannot "win" because they run in a different race to DTDs.
> 
> Rick Jelliffe

I agree.  It seems to me that each will get used where considered
pragmatic.  From my point of view, I'd be likely to continue to use
DTDs for "document" applications, whereas I'd use schemas for "data"/
application interaction scenarios, where the added tightness is much
needed, and will enable better tool support.

DTDs can be built by hand, but it looks like tool support will be needed
to build complex Schemas.

-- 
Edd Dumbill | Director, Useful Information Co. & Pharmalicensing Ltd
tel: +44 (0) 702-093-6870 | edd@usefulinc.com | http://usefulinc.com
fax: +44 (0) 870-164-0230 | pgp: http://usefulinc.com/edd/pubkey.asc

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From edd at usefulinc.com  Mon Jul 26 11:41:57 1999
From: edd at usefulinc.com (Edd Dumbill)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Separation of Content and Structure
In-Reply-To: <199907232242.SAA18686@hesketh.net>; from Simon St.Laurent on Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 06:46:09PM -0400
References: <000301bed547$7e24fc60$0a000a0a@csg> <199907232242.SAA18686@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <19990726084700.Q20609@heddley.com>

On Fri, Jul 23, 1999 at 06:46:09PM -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> At 03:11 PM 7/23/99 -0500, Clinton Gallagher wrote:
> >Do any of those who have a command of the use of XML remain using relational
> >databases and in which context as a development tool might the relational
> >database remain useful?
> 
> [... deletia ...]
> 
> In either case, it's not that hard to get your information into and out of
> XML when needed.  Store the info the way that's most efficient for your
> needs, and build bridges between your storage and transmission as required.
> 
> At least that's my take.
> 
> Simon St.Laurent

Mine too.  I run a site in which I store quite a lot of content as
raw XML, but index into it with a relational database.  So my tables
in the database contain the terms I want to index on, plus a pointer
to the XML document in the filesystem.  The only downside is a bit
more effort maintaining synchronicity between the two.  However if
there aren't tools out there that do this kind of thing already, there
probably will be shortly.

-- 
Edd Dumbill | Director, Useful Information Co. & Pharmalicensing Ltd
tel: +44 (0) 702-093-6870 | edd@usefulinc.com | http://usefulinc.com
fax: +44 (0) 870-164-0230 | pgp: http://usefulinc.com/edd/pubkey.asc

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From gjosten at sci.kun.nl  Mon Jul 26 12:26:20 1999
From: gjosten at sci.kun.nl (G.P.H. Josten)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Perl XSLT parser (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Hi all,

The lowest forwarded message is a reply to the upper forward:

Greetings,
Geert

>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Nicolas MONNET 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:18 AM
>Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
>
>
>
> I want to use XSL from within a Perl program. So far I have only seen
Java
> based XSL engines, and maybe msxsl.dll, which is not of great use for me
> since I'm not running Windows.
>
> Is there any other implementation (or beiginning thereof), available in
> source form? (Free preferably).
>
>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:52:29 +0200 (MET DST)
From: E.L. Willighagen 
To: egonw@sci.kun.nl, gjosten@sci.kun.nl, perl-xml@lyris.activestate.com
Subject: Perl XSLT parser


Hi there!

Geert Josten has developed a XSL-T parser for Perl...
that is: it is a script at this moment that supports some
of the XSL-T commands. At this moment it is a bit limited
but very useful. I used it to convert old CML files to
the new CML format...

it supports *one* template at this moment, but you can select
all elements in the XML-structure...
you can do testing on attributes: example: string[@title="BOILINGPOINT"]


More information can be found at:
http://www.sci.kun.nl/sigma/Persoonlijk/egonw/xslt/

Egon


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From gjosten at sci.kun.nl  Mon Jul 26 13:23:13 1999
From: gjosten at sci.kun.nl (G.P.H. Josten)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Perl XSLT Parser (fwd)
Message-ID: 


Hi all,

The lowest forwarded message is a reply to the upper forward:

Greetings,
Geert

>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Nicolas MONNET 
>To: 
>Sent: Thursday, July 08, 1999 7:18 AM
>Subject: XSL implementation other than Java?
>
>
>
> I want to use XSL from within a Perl program. So far I have only seen
Java
> based XSL engines, and maybe msxsl.dll, which is not of great use for me
> since I'm not running Windows.
>
> Is there any other implementation (or beiginning thereof), available in
> source form? (Free preferably).
>
>



---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1999 14:52:29 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: E.L. Willighagen 
>To: egonw@sci.kun.nl, gjosten@sci.kun.nl, perl-xml@lyris.activestate.com
>Subject: Perl XSLT parser


Hi there!

Geert Josten has developed a XSL-T parser for Perl...
that is: it is a script at this moment that supports some
of the XSL-T commands. At this moment it is a bit limited
but very useful. I used it to convert old CML files to
the new CML format...

it supports *one* template at this moment, but you can select
all elements in the XML-structure...
you can do testing on attributes: example: string[@title="BOILINGPOINT"]


More information can be found at:
http://www.sci.kun.nl/sigma/Persoonlijk/egonw/xslt/

Egon




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From hf at daisybytes.su.uunet.de  Mon Jul 26 14:02:27 1999
From: hf at daisybytes.su.uunet.de (Holger =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fl=F6rke?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Questions about DOM 1.0
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990726121146.008ff070@kelly>

Reading the DOM 1.0 recommendation leads to the follwing questions:

- Interface NamedNodeMap, Method removeNamedItem
  DOM says: 
    Return Value: The node removed from the map or NULL if no node with
such a name exists.
    Exceptions: NOT_FOUND_ERR: Raised if there is no node named 'name' in
the map

  If you throw an exception, why return something at all?

- Interface Node, Attribute nodeValue
  DOM says:
    Exceptions on setting: NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED_ERR: raised when the
node is readonly.

  Certain nodes (ie Document) does not have any nodeValue at all (NULL).
What will happen if someone tries to set the nodeValue on such a node? What
does "readonly" mean?

Holger Floerke



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From eisen at pobox.com  Mon Jul 26 15:32:32 1999
From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
Message-ID: <379C64CB.90468609@pobox.com>

DLSI=adpO

This is the second alpha release because the API has not
been finalized. The module will be available at your local
CPAN archive. Alternatively, try one of the 2 URLs:
http://www.perl.com/CPAN/authors/id/E/EI/EISEN/XML-RSS-0.2.tar.gz
http://www.perlxml.com/modules/XML-RSS-0.2.tar.gz

This Perl module provides a basic framework for creating and maintaining

RDF Site Summary (RSS) files. This distribution also contains several
examples that allow you to generate HTML from an RSS file.
This might be helpful if you want to include news feeds on your Web
site from sources like Slashot and Freshmeat.

RSS is primarily used by content authors who want to create a
Netscape Netcenter channel, however, that doesn't exclude us from using
it
in other applications.
For example, you may want to distribute daily news headlines to partners
and
customers who convert it to some other format, like HTML.

For the most part the module adheres to the RSS spec as it exists at
http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/quickstart.html.
Unfortunately, the RSS spec also allows one to use any HTML entity
without
first declaring them. Since XML::RSS is based on XML::Parser, you
can only use the default XML entities.

Please send comments, problems, etc. to eisen@pobox.com. I am especially
looking for suggestion for  additional functionality.

Jonathan.


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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Mon Jul 26 16:45:29 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B71@MDYNYCMSX1>

Rick Jelliffe  writes:

>The XML Schema supporters have never made any response to questions
>several people have raised over the last year questioning the
>practicality (*as a DTD replacement*) of a verbose syntax: who wants to 
>download a 100K schema for a 1K instance?

I'll take a crack at an answer and add a question.

A: I'll bet that a lot of 1K instances--maybe even the majority--will be
shipped somewhere where the schema is already known, making the schema
unnecessary to ship. For such small documents, production
applications designed to handle arbitrary DTDs on the fly won't be as common
as the systems that ship information designed specifically for those
systems. (While XML Web browsers will need to read arbitrary DTDs, they're
not relevant to this question, given the scarcity of 1K web pages out
there.) 

Q: Where do you get this figure of 100K? I thought I heard a rumor that you
were working on a DTD-to-W3C-Schema omle script as a sequel to xml2ddml.xom;
I would love to pump some DTDs through that to see some rough figures of the
percentage of bloat added.

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob             "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From dave at userland.com  Mon Jul 26 18:04:19 1999
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
References: <379C64CB.90468609@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <022801bed781$2fd89a30$1618ccce@pebbles>

6/20/99: A collection of scripts, in Frontier, Java, AppleScript, Perl, Cold
Fusion, PHP and Tcl, that produce a ScriptingNews 2.0b1 format syndication
file from a plain text format that's easy for writers to work with.

http://my.userland.com/stories/storyReader$14

RSS and ScriptingNews format are evolving to a single format, so as we go
forward, we'll update this page with more scripts in many popular languages
that can be used to manage XML-based content from plain text. This is key as
syndication goes forward, you should work in a "meta-meta" format, because
there will always be new "standards". That's the way this stuff works!

Dave Winer
UserLand


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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Mon Jul 26 18:33:51 1999
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: Latest XLink Working draft is publicly available
Message-ID: <19990726123618.H14393@w3.org>

  The XML Linking Working Group produced it's first XLink working
draft obsoleting the previous version from 1998/03/03.

    XLink Working Draft 26 July 1999
    http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink

  The draft indicates a number of issues and the working group
is seeking feedback on those. Please mail or Cc those to the
public mailing list www-xml-linking-comments@w3.org 

  thanks in advance,

Daniel

W3C XML Linking WG staff contact

-- 
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes  | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind,
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe.

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From eisen at pobox.com  Mon Jul 26 21:57:24 1999
From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
References: <379C64CB.90468609@pobox.com> <022801bed781$2fd89a30$1618ccce@pebbles>
Message-ID: <379CBDFE.B90A8582@pobox.com>

Dave Winer wrote:

> 6/20/99: A collection of scripts, in Frontier, Java, AppleScript, Perl, Cold
> Fusion, PHP and Tcl, that produce a ScriptingNews 2.0b1 format syndication
> file from a plain text format that's easy for writers to work with.
>
> http://my.userland.com/stories/storyReader$14
>
> RSS and ScriptingNews format are evolving to a single format, so as we go
> forward, we'll update this page with more scripts in many popular languages
> that can be used to manage XML-based content from plain text. This is key as
> syndication goes forward, you should work in a "meta-meta" format, because
> there will always be new "standards". That's the way this stuff works!
>

Er, ok. Who is we? Is there a group mothering this? I believe that generating
XML headlines from plain text should only be used to help people in the
transition from plain text to XML. If writers are seriously opposed to writing
raw XML, give them a tool with "fill in the blanks" functionality. Converting
to XML from plain text is not such a big deal for a simple format like RSS, but
stepping up to something like XMLNews would be rediculous.

Also, I'm glad you brought up the RSS vs. ScriptingNews format. I've been
somewhat irritated at Netscape's lack of support for RSS. There is a blurb of
possible future directions, however, I'm not convinced it will be worth waiting
for. BTW, I did, in fact, look at the ScriptingNews format. While it is a step
forward, it won't stand up to the requirements of basic news syndication. I
think we need to be preparing for the scenario where information is distributed
on syndicated networks or feeds.

I believe XMLNews or the NITF standard is a more appropriate format for
distributing news (see http://www.xmlnews.org). Since I am in agreement with
you that I should be focusing on a "meta-meta" format, I am exploring the
possibility of using and extending XMLNews-Meta as a replacement for RSS. I
provided the XML::RSS Perl module as a convenience to those who are currently
using RSS to create and distrubute news headlines, as well as read and display
them on the Web.

I'd be interested to hear what others on this list are thinking along these
lines. Is there a better alternative to RSS and ScriptingNews besides XMLNews?

Jonathan.




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From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net  Mon Jul 26 22:42:07 1999
From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: 

Rick Jelliffe wrote:
> The XML Schema supporters have never made any response to questions
> several people have raised over the last year questioning the
> practicality
> (*as a DTD replacement*) of a verbose syntax: who wants to download
> a 100K schema for a 1K instance?

I have.

I argued that increasingly, both the document and schema will be
generated dynamically from relational or object databases. In this
situation you would only need to convey the part of the schema needed to
validate the part of the 'document' passed. It therefore seems
inconceivable to me that you would need to pass a 100k schema for a 1k
document - you just pass a 'sub-set' of the schema (which is still
itself a valid schema).

An exception would be if you were allowing the recipient to edit the
document, but even then you could incrementally pass the parts of the
schema that were needed for the area being edited, so that the target
application gradually built up the full schema as and when it needed it
- a clear advantage to me of using XML for everything, including
expressing XML.

(I have devised a working prototype of this, in case people are thinking
it's too complicated.)

Regards,

Mark Birbeck

http://www/iedigital.net/

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From ricko at allette.com.au  Mon Jul 26 22:53:39 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:02 2004
Subject: ANN: GLUE Transcoders now available in beta
Message-ID: <002301bed7a9$7abdda60$14f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>

GLUE Loses User Encodings!

GLUE is a library of data and utilities to simplify the task of creating
transcoder software, and to allow the trial of new functionality for
Chinese
documents.

The website is now up at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/glue.html
as part of the Chinese XML Now! project at Academia Sinica Computing
Centre http://www.ascc.net/xml/

Transcoding is specified using XML. C Transcoders are generated using
XSL
stylesheets. Using XML allows more than just mapping tables to be
specified:
multi-byte encoding algorithms may be specified, and variant character
sets
may be specified. The current library specifies 30 different characters
sets: including Big5. (Transcoders for other fixed 8-bit encodings can
be
trivially generated from the tables at unicode.org.  ISO2022 modal
(escaped)
encodings are not supported currently.)

XSL stylesheets have been made to create transcoders to utf-8 for these
character encodings. A stylesheet to create transcoders from UTF-8 is
also
in preparation. The transcoders are available individually, and in a
version
of iconv (a.k.a. tcs), implemented as a UNIX shell script.

The transcoders will be enhanced soon to handle various kinds of numeric
character reference delimiting and undelimiting. The code is Open
Source.
Note: this preview release is beta quality.

Rick Jelliffe
ricko@gate.sinica.edu.tw
Chinese XML Now! Project
Academia Sinica Computing Centre


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From dave at userland.com  Mon Jul 26 23:02:40 1999
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
References: <379C64CB.90468609@pobox.com> <022801bed781$2fd89a30$1618ccce@pebbles> <379CBDFE.B90A8582@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <02bb01bed7aa$e20652f0$1618ccce@pebbles>

I don't know, I think most writers are serious about writing and most of
them don't care about XML. If you want to be able to do fun things with the
stuff they write, you have to meet them where they live, or as close to that
as possible.

About XMLNews, I've tried to get wrapped around what it's doing, and I can't
figure it out. An XMLNews for Newbies document would be a really good idea,
if they want their format to catch on.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: Jonathan Eisenzopf 
To: Dave Winer 
Cc: 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 12:58 PM
Subject: Re: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2


> Dave Winer wrote:
>
> > 6/20/99: A collection of scripts, in Frontier, Java, AppleScript, Perl,
Cold
> > Fusion, PHP and Tcl, that produce a ScriptingNews 2.0b1 format
syndication
> > file from a plain text format that's easy for writers to work with.
> >
> > http://my.userland.com/stories/storyReader$14
> >
> > RSS and ScriptingNews format are evolving to a single format, so as we
go
> > forward, we'll update this page with more scripts in many popular
languages
> > that can be used to manage XML-based content from plain text. This is
key as
> > syndication goes forward, you should work in a "meta-meta" format,
because
> > there will always be new "standards". That's the way this stuff works!
> >
>
> Er, ok. Who is we? Is there a group mothering this? I believe that
generating
> XML headlines from plain text should only be used to help people in the
> transition from plain text to XML. If writers are seriously opposed to
writing
> raw XML, give them a tool with "fill in the blanks" functionality.
Converting
> to XML from plain text is not such a big deal for a simple format like
RSS, but
> stepping up to something like XMLNews would be rediculous.
>
> Also, I'm glad you brought up the RSS vs. ScriptingNews format. I've been
> somewhat irritated at Netscape's lack of support for RSS. There is a blurb
of
> possible future directions, however, I'm not convinced it will be worth
waiting
> for. BTW, I did, in fact, look at the ScriptingNews format. While it is a
step
> forward, it won't stand up to the requirements of basic news syndication.
I
> think we need to be preparing for the scenario where information is
distributed
> on syndicated networks or feeds.
>
> I believe XMLNews or the NITF standard is a more appropriate format for
> distributing news (see http://www.xmlnews.org). Since I am in agreement
with
> you that I should be focusing on a "meta-meta" format, I am exploring the
> possibility of using and extending XMLNews-Meta as a replacement for RSS.
I
> provided the XML::RSS Perl module as a convenience to those who are
currently
> using RSS to create and distrubute news headlines, as well as read and
display
> them on the Web.
>
> I'd be interested to hear what others on this list are thinking along
these
> lines. Is there a better alternative to RSS and ScriptingNews besides
XMLNews?
>
> Jonathan.
>
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
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>


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From niko at cmsplatform.com  Mon Jul 26 23:16:45 1999
From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: XML end-of-line + Entity expansion (Was: Re: Unix/Java design issues)
Message-ID: <016601bed7ac$48253fa0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com>

Hunter, David wrote:

>Tim Bray comments on this in the Annotated XML spec (at
> http://www.xml.com/axml/axml.html):

I'm soooo embarrassed!  I've cited Tim's annotated spec several times in
other contexts herein.  Yet, for some reason this time i went directly to
the W3C spec, and didn't cross-check the former.  Mea culpa.

>
>Line End Trade-Offs
>[snip]
>
>But as a programmer using an XML processor, you can count on never seeing
>anything but a single line-feed character separating lines. This means your
>code will run anywhere.
>
>[snip] ..but it's too late for that now.
>

At the risk of hubris, i have to disagree with Tim that reporting all line
delimiters as a single LF means "code will run anywhere".  Yes, the
(simple)code will run in isolation -- but the XML is converted into
something that can't be used (by native tools) without further conversion.
I guess i'm saying that i wish that this transform were under application
control and/or could be suppressed.  This way, XML processors would not have
to keep converting data back to its
original form at every step of the way, just to preserve editable data.

Using Expat, i've had to resort to some ugly little kludges to preserve the
system-specific end-of-line strings.  Or perhaps it would be appropriate to
report the end-of-line as a special event, rather than just another bit of
character data.  This way the XML 1.0 end-of-line normalization would be
preserved, but those processors that need to preserve the original data
could do so...


Is it truly too late?  I'm assuming that there may well be an XML 1.1 (or
2.0) necessary to resolve some other issues (e.g. namespaces, XLink,
proprietary XSL implementations, etc.) before everything settles down.
Would that be an opportunity to address this and other such issues (see
below)?


=======

A related topic is the expansion of general (symbol) entities by
XML-compliant
parsers.  In my earlier ignorance, i'd though that "well-formed" pertained
strictly
to matters of XML syntax.  Yet, parsers (correctly) choke on "undefined"
entities (e.g. HTML's "•" or "©").  Why is it that a
non-validating XML parser must "validate" such entities, but not element
tags?  I realise that i'm presenting the most simplistic use of entities --
parser-based entity expansion is surely useful for more sophisticated (e.g.
non-symbol, nested, parameter) entities.  However, IMHO, much use of the XML
entity feature will be similar to HTML's use of same -- symbolic constants
and special characters.  Perhaps there should be a sub-class of entities
specifically for this purpose, with a non-validating XML parser checking for
valid syntax, but not expanding the entity string.

=======

When processing XML data that must remain intact and/or system-specific, it
is necessary to convert normalized end-of-lines and expanded entities back
into their original form.  In both these cases, the parser is actually
creating more work for the processor than if the data were simply passed,
unmodified by the parser.

Regards,
-Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo.



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From nancy.coelho at netmanage.com  Mon Jul 26 23:35:55 1999
From: nancy.coelho at netmanage.com (nancy coelho)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: MSXML parser
Message-ID: <005801bed7af$1b2dfd40$4a811b9c@netmanage.com>

 I am  just  starting on XML. I have  IE5 on my NT 4.0 machine. How  do I get hold of following parser class?

1.com.xml.Element
2.com.ms.xml.ElementFactory
3.com.ms.xml.Attribute
4.com.ms.xml.Document

Sorry for asking basic question. I am just starting.

Nancy


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From malliks at rocketmail.com  Tue Jul 27 00:33:10 1999
From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: DTD question
Message-ID: <19990726222800.3925.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>


Hi everybody,

It is a basic question. Is the following correct?




The above has gone through some parsers.

CU,

Malliks.




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From shennessy at devcor.com  Tue Jul 27 01:06:24 1999
From: shennessy at devcor.com (Hennessy, Sean)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: Unix/Java design issues (Was: Re: Is CDATA "structure"?)
Message-ID: <4326C559DE39D211A75D00A0C9CFE408117EF8@DEVCOR_NT2>

John Cowan wrote:
The basic problem is code like this:

	unsigned count;
	while (--count > 0) {
		/* do something */
		}

This loop will never fail, because unsigned numbers are always greater
than or equal to zero. 

Sean says:
Correction..
unsigned numbers are not negative!
unsigned count will eventually reach zero and exit the while loop.

Those short on patience or machines with 32bit integral types
should initialize count = 10; or less and see for themselves..


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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Tue Jul 27 01:06:43 1999
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: DTD question
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B83@MDYNYCMSX1>

> Is the following correct?
> 
> 

It is correct, but your second line is basically saying "here comes some
attribute definitions for the TYPE_OF_LOSS_CODE element type," and then it
doesn't have any. This is legal (see production 52 of the XML spec), and
would typically be used as a placeholder for where you're going to put the
attribute definitions, but wouldn't serve much purpose that I know of in a
production system. 

Bob DuCharme       www.snee.com/bob         see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML:
The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall.

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jul 27 03:02:17 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: DTD question
In-Reply-To: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B83@MDYNYCMSX1>
References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277B83@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: <14237.1248.157232.473667@localhost.localdomain>

DuCharme, Robert writes:

 > > Is the following correct?
 > > 
 > > 
 > 
 > It is correct, but your second line is basically saying "here comes some
 > attribute definitions for the TYPE_OF_LOSS_CODE element type," and then it
 > doesn't have any. This is legal (see production 52 of the XML spec), and
 > would typically be used as a placeholder for where you're going to put the
 > attribute definitions, but wouldn't serve much purpose that I know of in a
 > production system. 

It's very useful in a system that's heavily configured with parameter
entities (whether such a system itself is useful is an open debate).

  
  ]]>
  

  
  


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From donpark at quake.net  Tue Jul 27 04:29:54 1999
From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: <000201bed7d8$7c9fae60$2b2efea9@w21tp>

> document - you just pass a 'sub-set' of the schema (which is still
> itself a valid schema).

Thus we end up with "XML Schema Fragment" (XML Schema + XML Fragment).  Has
anyone actually tried doing this?  I am interested in knowing any serious
issues.

Best,

Don Park
Docuverse


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From tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net  Tue Jul 27 07:09:35 1999
From: tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net (Tan Yiping)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
Message-ID: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A504@SERVER1>

Thanks a lot to Steve, Mike, and John. Your information is very helpful.

However, none of tools you mentioned sovle exactly my problem. My last
message was too short, it seems. OK. Let me post a long one this time.
Hope you are still interested in this topic.

What I want to do basically is to exchange data in XML format between
two
applications over the network. Because XML docs are self-descriptive, it
should be intelligent enough to tolerate some independent interface
upgrading/extension in each of the communication partners. Quite a new
XML application, isn't it?

My current approach is to first define the data to be exchanged in XML
Schema. Then I can parse the XML Schema in (because it's a well-formed
XML doc) and generate XML doc against this schema in DOM objects,
filling
with the data from the a C struct. The point is, when the XML Schema is
parsed in, I have the XML doc structure and variable names in memory.

Let's say I have in memory an instance of data "tNewspaper" of type 
T_Newspaper, defined as following:

typedef int T_BundleParam[6];

typedef struct {
	float	fUSD;		//Price in United States
	float	fDM;		//Price in Germany
}T_Price;

typedef struct {
	char		szName[8];		//Newspaper name
	long		nSubscription;		//Number of Subscription
	T_BundleParam	tBundleParam;		//6 Bundling parameters
	T_Price		tPrice;			//Price
}T_Newspaper;

The XML counterpart of the above definition can be, in IE5-compatible
XML Schema language:



	
	
	
	
	
	
		
		
	
	
		
		
		
		
	


(It will be perfect if I can define BundleParam as minOccurs="6"
maxOccurs="6". However, the MSXML parser in IE5 doesn't support so.)

Now I have made the above XML Schema manually. But I have hundreds
of such kind of C structs to be converted. It would be very helpful if
there is
a tool to do the conversion, even if the tool can only translate 80% of
the
syntax correctly!

Is such a tool exist?

Yiping
(Chinese has their given names at last position. There isn't an
international 
standard on name format yet, sorry.)


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From soni at csa.iisc.ernet.in  Tue Jul 27 08:03:15 1999
From: soni at csa.iisc.ernet.in (Preeti Soni)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: Modl- A new XML Application
Message-ID: 


Hi,

We are developing a new XML application called Molecular Dynamics Language
( MoDL ; pronounced as Model). MoDL provides simple constructs like atom,
bond, molecule and TRANSLATE that mark-up the simulation data. For
visualizations MoDL file it is converted into VRML.

This is available at:

http://violet.csa.iisc.ernet.in

Preeti Soni
 ME(CSA)
Indian Institute of science







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From eisen at pobox.com  Tue Jul 27 08:16:08 1999
From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
References: <379C64CB.90468609@pobox.com> <022801bed781$2fd89a30$1618ccce@pebbles> <379CBDFE.B90A8582@pobox.com> <02bb01bed7aa$e20652f0$1618ccce@pebbles>
Message-ID: <379D500B.D5833AA5@pobox.com>

Dave Winer wrote:

> I don't know, I think most writers are serious about writing and most of
> them don't care about XML. If you want to be able to do fun things with the
> stuff they write, you have to meet them where they live, or as close to that
> as possible.
>
> About XMLNews, I've tried to get wrapped around what it's doing, and I can't
> figure it out. An XMLNews for Newbies document would be a really good idea,
> if they want their format to catch on.
>

Well, there's a tutorial for the XMLNews-Meta format as well as XMLNews:
http://www.xmlnews.org/docs/meta-tutorial.html
http://www.xmlnews.org/docs/story-tutorial.html

If you read the meta tutorial, you'll find that the format is quite simple and
handles some important issues related to distributing news.

Jonathan.


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From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net  Tue Jul 27 11:24:37 1999
From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: 

Don Park wrote:
> > document - you just pass a 'sub-set' of the schema (which is still
> > itself a valid schema).
> 
> Thus we end up with "XML Schema Fragment" (XML Schema + XML 
> Fragment).  Has
> anyone actually tried doing this?  I am interested in knowing 
> any serious
> issues.

Er ... no you don't. (It might be worth revisiting the raging debate
about fragments from a few months ago.) The technique I have used means
it is always a complete schema, if it only represents a sub-set of some
larger schema.

Regards,

Mark

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From ben at mitra.com  Tue Jul 27 15:40:10 1999
From: ben at mitra.com (Ben Hui)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: DTD question
In-Reply-To: <14237.1248.157232.473667@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <000001bed835$f670da90$9607a8c0@mitra.com>

>
> DuCharme, Robert writes:
>
>  > > Is the following correct?
>  > > 
>  > > 
>  >
>  > It is correct, but your second line is basically saying "here
> comes some
>  > attribute definitions for the TYPE_OF_LOSS_CODE element type,"
> and then it
>  > doesn't have any. This is legal (see production 52 of the XML
> spec), and
>  > would typically be used as a placeholder for where you're
> going to put the
>  > attribute definitions, but wouldn't serve much purpose that I
> know of in a
>  > production system.
>
> It's very useful in a system that's heavily configured with parameter
> entities (whether such a system itself is useful is an open debate).
>
>               security-level NMTOKEN #REQUIRED
>     ">
>   ]]>
>   
>
>   
>        %TYPE_OF_LOSS_CODE_atts;>
>

Can some kind people explain what the use of

>               security-level NMTOKEN #REQUIRED
>     ">
>   ]]>

I know XML use  for non-parse data, what are the other use
of 
and what does this notation means in general?

ben


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From jesmith at kaon.com  Tue Jul 27 15:48:04 1999
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
In-Reply-To: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A504@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990727095152.00f1e634@tiac.net>

I'm not aware of a tool like that, but if you want to write your own, I'd
offer this advice:

1) If the C structs don't exist yet, then write the structs in a simple
language of your own construction, then use Perl to spew forth *both* the C
structs and the XML Schema (and output Java, C++, and XML DTD while you're
at it! ;).  Or, if you can be sufficiently clear in the XML Schema, write
your structs in XML Schema, and spew forth C structs right from that.

2) If the C structs do already exist, you're going to have to parse them.
I had to do that once, and I ended up grabbing a public-domain C lint-like
program called "check" (I can probably figure out where it came from, but
it'll take some looking), munging it up to tolerate ANSI, and then adding
my own code to spew out the output I needed.  The BNF for just parsing
structs isn't very complicated, but in my case, the structs lived in C
header files with prototypes and lots of other stuff which the parser was
going to have to understand to get the stuff it needed.

Hope that helps.


-Joshua Smith


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From ejfreed at infocanvas.com  Tue Jul 27 17:00:11 1999
From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel XJP
Message-ID: 

I am experiencing some strange behavior with the datachannel XML parser
package (the most recent one).
In my reading of the DOM spec, this is not appropriate behavior, but perhaps
I am missing something.

The behavior is that when I do a 'setPreserveWhiteSpace(true)' before
parsing a document, and the document
contains strings with entity references such as:

     < fubar > 

when I then do a getText() on element1, what is returned is a
java.lang.String that contains a null (char 0) for each entity reference.

These nulls of course confound the rest of the code I am writing. In side
the DOM tree the entity reference objects are happily holding the
appropriate text representation  i.e. '<' and  '>'.

Turning off white space preservation makes the getText() place appropriate
decoded entity references in the resulting string.

Bug or feature?

erik


Erik James Freed
InfoCanvas Software

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From mckisss at netsolve.net  Tue Jul 27 17:34:23 1999
From: mckisss at netsolve.net (McKisson, Shawn)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:03 2004
Subject: MSXML parser
Message-ID: <59816DD7DAE9D11184E400104B66A353018034A3@cobra.netsolve.net>

Look for Paul Spencer's books on XML. He uses IE5 for most of his examples.
?
--shawn

-----Original Message-----
From: nancy coelho [mailto:nancy.coelho@netmanage.com]
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 4:38 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: MSXML parser


?I am just? starting on XML. I have? IE5 on my NT 4.0 machine. How? do I get
hold of following parser class?
?
1.com.xml.Element
2.com.ms.xml.ElementFactory
3.com.ms.xml.Attribute
4.com.ms.xml.Document
?
Sorry for asking basic question.?I am just starting.
?
Nancy
?
?


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From srn at techno.com  Tue Jul 27 17:47:02 1999
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: BillG on XML schemas
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990725113034.0099a8c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> (message
	from Tim Bray on Sun, 25 Jul 1999 11:30:43 -0700)
References: <3.0.32.19990725113034.0099a8c0@pop.intergate.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <199907270551.AAA01277@bruno.techno.com>

> >From http://www.microsoft.com/msft/speech/analystmtg99/qafam99.htm
> 
> "We want to create a run time environment that supports Java,
>  C, Visual Basic, and a new set of languages that are coming
>  along that really deal with this XML schema issue, that really
>  take data binding, which has been really the worst thing in
>  development, where you have to go and find the data, find the
>  format of the data, pull it in, transform it, and try to get it back
>  out.  Most code is written around that.  And that impedance
>  match, there are ways of taking some of the ideas that were
>  around object database language couplings, and really getting
>  those into the mainstream."
> 
> Not sure what it means, but it sounds good. -T.

Maybe he's ready to understand groves at last.

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 231 4098
fax    +1 972 994 0087

3615 Tanner Lane
Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA

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From ricko at allette.com.au  Tue Jul 27 18:27:58 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: <001c01bed84d$a9843d90$47f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: Mark Birbeck 

>Don Park wrote:
>> > document - you just pass a 'sub-set' of the schema (which is still
>> > itself a valid schema).
>>
>> Thus we end up with "XML Schema Fragment" (XML Schema + XML
>> Fragment).  Has
>> anyone actually tried doing this?  I am interested in knowing
>> any serious
>> issues.
>
>Er ... no you don't. (It might be worth revisiting the raging debate
>about fragments from a few months ago.) The technique I have used means
>it is always a complete schema, if it only represents a sub-set of some
>larger schema.

So does the recipient system look through the document and then
request a schema server for the appropriate minimal schema to be
generated and sent, or does the server already have a separate schema
generated for each instance?

Last year I proposed that it would better to allow downloading
of schema fragments on an individual name basis: the XML-Bind
proposal was to allow a kind of link from element types to
resources. This would be a practical way to implement this kind of
thing. The same mechanism would allow non-schematic links,
such as default values for attributes, which are troublesome in
XML Schemas. The latest XLink almost allowed links based on
types (making the "from" and "to" attributes on arcs point to
type names would allow this), but they have currently disallowed it
again unfortunately.  I hope they swing back to allowing it
again.

Rick Jelliffe


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From mcheek at NetVendor.com  Tue Jul 27 18:54:29 1999
From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: SAX writer
Message-ID: 


Dear XML Xperts,
I have a project that parses an xml document using class
com.ibm.xml.parsers.DOMParser.  I am guessing the parser parses the xml
file into an org.w3c.dom.Document object.  Then, I create a graphical
DOMTRee (extends JTree) with the Document object and everything works
smoothly.

Herein lies the problem - my user will perform various tasks on the GUI
tree that cause my Document to call removeNodeFromParent(..) and
insertNode(..),etc.   I now need to serialize my new Document object to
disk as an xml file.  I cannot find any DOM classes or methods to do
this.. can anyone help?  I do not want to use IBM's or Sun's DOMWriter
classes as we are not sure yet which parser library we are going to
implement.

One other question - I like the idea of using SAX instead of DOM to be
able to drop in any parser dynamically... Has anyone seen any code that
uses SAX to create an xml object in code, then make changes, then write
that xml object back into a file? I am not finding much sample SAX code
out there to help us explore the power of an event-driven model.
Especially - writing an xml object to an xml file with SAX.

thanks for your time,
-mark cheek
atlanta, ga


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From simon at openthought.com  Tue Jul 27 18:56:35 1999
From: simon at openthought.com (Simon Hargreaves)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: Javascript in XSL problem
Message-ID: <379DF1AE.A5A1EA74@openthought.com>

I'm having trouble passing the current node to a javascript/ECMAScript
in an XSLT parser, I'm using the lotusxsl java implementation with the
IBM DOM java classes.

I'm trying to call the javascript function

        function addNode(nodeN){

    }

    with the xsl
    ------------
    
---------------
    {lxslt:addNode(.)}
----------------
    
    
----------------

But I just get the data passed as ResultTreeFrag and I can't get any
kind of child data or document data from it.

    Can anybody help, there is nothing of use on the lotus site or in
the documentation, and it doesn't help that it is using the lotus API in
the javascript and not the DOM bindings for ECMAScript.

            Simon...


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From vance at textwise.com  Tue Jul 27 20:35:39 1999
From: vance at textwise.com (Vance Christiaanse)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: SAX writer
References: 
Message-ID: <379DFA98.C98C3D8C@textwise.com>

Mark Cheek wrote in part:

> ...  I now need to serialize my new Document object to
> disk as an xml file.  I cannot find any DOM classes or methods to do
> this.. can anyone help?  I do not want to use IBM's or Sun's DOMWriter
> classes as we are not sure yet which parser library we are going to
> implement.

Paragraph 1.1 of the Level 1 DOM spec actually states that its scope
does not include persistent storage of a Document. I needed to do what
you want to do and I just took the code from within DOMWriter.java. The
main change I made was passing "canonical" as a parameter instead of
letting it be a global variable. This code should work with any
DOM-compliant classes, not just XML4J.

Vance

Vance Christiaanse
TextWise, LLC
vance@textwise.com


   /*************************************************************
    * Prints the specified node, recursively.
    *
    * This code was adapted from the sample code "DOMWriter.java"
    * included with XML4J.
    ************************************************************/

   public static void print(PrintWriter out, boolean canonical, Node
node) {

      //-------------------------
      // Is there anything to do?
      //-------------------------

      if (node == null) {
         return;
      }

      int type = node.getNodeType();
      switch (type) {

         //----------------
         // Print document.
         //----------------

         case Node.DOCUMENT_NODE: {
            if (!canonical) {
               out.println("");
            }
            print(out, canonical,
((Document)node).getDocumentElement());
            out.println();
            out.flush();
            break;
         }

         //-------------------------------
         // Print element with attributes.
         //-------------------------------

         case Node.ELEMENT_NODE: {
            out.print('<');
            out.print(node.getNodeName());
            Attr attrs[] = sortAttributes(node.getAttributes());
            for (int i = 0; i < attrs.length; i++) {
               Attr attr = attrs[i];
               out.print(' ');
               out.print(attr.getNodeName());
               out.print("=\"");
               out.print(normalize(attr.getNodeValue(), canonical));
               out.print('"');
            }
            out.print('>');
            NodeList children = node.getChildNodes();
            if (children != null) {
               int len = children.getLength();
               for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
                  print(out, canonical, children.item(i));
               }
            }
            break;
         }

         //-------------------------------
         // Handle entity reference nodes.
         //-------------------------------

         case Node.ENTITY_REFERENCE_NODE: {
            if (canonical) {
               NodeList children = node.getChildNodes();
               if (children != null) {
                  int len = children.getLength();
                  for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
                     print(out, canonical, children.item(i));
                  }
               }
            }
            else {
               out.print('&');
               out.print(node.getNodeName());
               out.print(';');
            }
            break;
         }

         //------------
         // Print text.
         //------------

         case Node.TEXT_NODE: {
            out.print(normalize(node.getNodeValue(), canonical));
            break;
         }

         //-------------
         // Print CDATA.
         //-------------

         case Node.CDATA_SECTION_NODE: {
            if (canonical) {
               out.print(normalize(node.getNodeValue(), canonical));
            } else {
               out.print("");
            }
            break;
         }

         //------------------------------
         // Print processing instruction.
         //------------------------------

         case Node.PROCESSING_INSTRUCTION_NODE: {
            out.print(" 0) {
               out.print(' ');
               out.print(data);
            }
            out.print("?>");
            break;
         }
      }

      //----------------------------
      // Print end tag if necessary.
      //----------------------------

      if (type == Node.ELEMENT_NODE) {
         out.print("');
      }

   }


   //============================================================
   // Private method to Normalize the given string.
   //
   // This code was adapted from the sample code "DOMWriter.java"
   // included with XML4J.
   //============================================================

   private static String normalize(String s, boolean canonical) {
      StringBuffer str = new StringBuffer();

      int len = (s != null) ? s.length() : 0;
      for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
         char ch = s.charAt(i);
         switch (ch) {
            case '<': {
               str.append("<");
               break;
            }
            case '>': {
               str.append(">");
               break;
            }
            case '&': {
               str.append("&");
               break;
            }
            case '"': {
               str.append(""");
               break;
            }
            case '\r':
            case '\n': {
               if (canonical) {
                  str.append("&#");
                  str.append(Integer.toString(ch));
                  str.append(';');
                  break;
               }
               // else, default append char
            }
            default: {
               str.append(ch);
            }
         }
      }
      return str.toString();
    }


   //============================================================
   // Private method that returns a sorted list of attributes.
   //
   // This code was adapted from the sample code "DOMWriter.java"
   // included with XML4J.
   //============================================================

   private static Attr[] sortAttributes(NamedNodeMap attrs) {

      int len = (attrs != null) ? attrs.getLength() : 0;
      Attr array[] = new Attr[len];
      for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
          array[i] = (Attr)attrs.item(i);
      }
      for (int i = 0; i < len - 1; i++) {
         String name  = array[i].getNodeName();
         int    index = i;
         for (int j = i + 1; j < len; j++) {
            String curName = array[j].getNodeName();
            if (curName.compareTo(name) < 0) {
               name  = curName;
               index = j;
            }
         }
         if (index != i) {
            Attr temp    = array[i];
            array[i]     = array[index];
            array[index] = temp;
         }
      }
      return array;
   }

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From vance at textwise.com  Tue Jul 27 20:55:07 1999
From: vance at textwise.com (Vance Christiaanse)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel XJP
References: 
Message-ID: <379DFF27.1F629EF2@textwise.com>

> Erik James Freed wrote:
> 
> I am experiencing some strange behavior with the datachannel XML
> parser package (the most recent one).
> In my reading of the DOM spec, this is not appropriate behavior, but
> perhaps I am missing something.
>
> The behavior is that when I do a 'setPreserveWhiteSpace(true)' before
> parsing a document, and the document
> contains strings with entity references such as:
> 
>      < fubar > 
> 
> when I then do a getText() on element1, what is returned is a
> java.lang.String that contains a null (char 0) for each entity
> reference.
> 
> These nulls of course confound the rest of the code I am writing. In
> side the DOM tree the entity reference objects are happily holding the
> appropriate text representation  i.e. '<' and  '>'.
> 
> Turning off white space preservation makes the getText() place
> appropriate decoded entity references in the resulting string.
> 
> Bug or feature?
> 
> erik
> 
> 
> Erik James Freed
> InfoCanvas Software


I don't see a setPreserveWhiteSpace(...) method or preserveWhiteSpace
class or instance variable in the DOM spec and I don't see getText() or
a text variable either. The answer to "bug or feature" would be up to
the

> datachannel XML parser package

Vance

Vance Christiaanse
TextWise, LLC
vance@textwise.com

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From malliks at rocketmail.com  Tue Jul 27 22:22:33 1999
From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
Message-ID: <19990727201726.25534.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>



Hi Everybody,

How should the DTD be written to use & for an element
in the XML Document?

For example,



J & W AUTO BODY INC does
not become a well formed XML Document.

How should the DTD be written to accomadate
characters such as &? Thanks in advance.

CU,

Malliks



_________________________________________________________
DO YOU YAHOO!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com


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From iand at fdc.co.uk  Tue Jul 27 23:59:59 1999
From: iand at fdc.co.uk (Ian Davis)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML::RSS 0.2
In-Reply-To: <379D500B.D5833AA5@pobox.com>
References: <379D500B.D5833AA5@pobox.com>
Message-ID: <6960.990727@fdc.co.uk>


On Tuesday, July 27, 1999, 7:22:03 AM, Jonathan wrote:

> Well, there's a tutorial for the XMLNews-Meta format as well as XMLNews:
> http://www.xmlnews.org/docs/meta-tutorial.html
> http://www.xmlnews.org/docs/story-tutorial.html

> If you read the meta tutorial, you'll find that the format is quite simple and
> handles some important issues related to distributing news.

> Jonathan.

I feel that XMLNews is a little too complex for general purpose usage.
Part of the popularity of RSS is it's simplicity.

I recently proposed an enhanced form of RSS called the OCS Channel
format. You can read more at http://alchemy.openjava.org/ocs/

There is a mailing list that is currently discussing syndication
standards such as RSS, scriptingNews and OCS at
http://www.onelist.com/arcindex.cgi?listname=syndication and I'd
encourage anyone interested in XML based syndication formats to join
in the discussion.


.id.

-- 
StartsHere - http://theweb.startshere.net/
weblog - http://alchemy.openjava.org/
me - http://www.fdc.co.uk/people/iand/ 
email - iand@fdc.co.uk | icq - 4423828




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From simpson at polaris.net  Wed Jul 28 00:04:35 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: <19990727201726.25534.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990727180535.007c5190@nexus.polaris.net>

At 01:17 PM 07/27/1999 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote:
>How should the DTD be written to use & for an element
>in the XML Document?
>
>For example,
>
>
>
>J & W AUTO BODY INC does
>not become a well formed XML Document.

Include an entity declaration in the DTD, e.g.:
	
Then in your example:
	J & W AUTO BODY INC
(Note that if you're not using a DTD, you can use & without declaring it.)

Or you can enclose the whole thing in a CDATA block:
	

The advantage of the second approach is that you don't need to worry about
entities. Its disadvantage is that it's more tedious to enter (if doing
your markup manually) and is also somewhat less readable.
==========================================================
John E. Simpson            | The secret of eternal youth
simpson@polaris.net        | is arrested development.
http://www.flixml.org      |  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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From pgrosso at arbortext.com  Wed Jul 28 00:18:45 1999
From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:04 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990727171959.016e5e14@pophost.arbortext.com>

At 18:05 1999 07 27 -0400, John E. Simpson wrote:
>At 01:17 PM 07/27/1999 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote:
>>How should the DTD be written to use & for an element
>>in the XML Document?
>>
>>For example,
>>
>>
>>
>>J & W AUTO BODY INC does
>>not become a well formed XML Document.
>
>Include an entity declaration in the DTD, e.g.:
>	

You cannot redeclare & which is one of XML's predefined
entities [1].  Just use & in place of &--no declaration
is necessary.

paul

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent

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From simpson at polaris.net  Wed Jul 28 01:14:39 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990727171959.016e5e14@pophost.arbortext.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990727191509.00847af0@nexus.polaris.net>

At 05:20 PM 07/27/1999 -0500, Paul Grosso wrote:
>You cannot redeclare & which is one of XML's predefined
>entities [1].  Just use & in place of &--no declaration
>is necessary.
>
>[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent

Actually, that's not 100% true: while & is a pre-defined entity, the
questioner expressly mentioned that he/she wanted to use a DTD. As the
second paragraph of the REC's section that you pointed to says:

	All XML processors must recognize these entities whether they are 
	declared or not. For interoperability, valid XML documents should 
	declare these entities, like any others, before using them. 

I believe the word "valid" there says that you can reliably use them
without declaration only in well-formed documents. If you want an
interoperable DTD, they've got to be declared. 

==========================================================
John E. Simpson            | The secret of eternal youth
simpson@polaris.net        | is arrested development.
http://www.flixml.org      |  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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From robin at isogen.com  Wed Jul 28 01:27:08 1999
From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: reftype (IDREF constraints)
Message-ID: 

I confess that I've not been able to keep up with
all the recent W3C working drafts in detail...

So: are any of the new specs addressing the
matter of constraints upon referenced elements?
In current syntax, this would amount to saying
that IDREF(s) in a given case could only be
pointers to specified (classes of) GIs, as
approximately in the HyTime 'reftype'.

Where would/should this concern for scope
(semantics) be addressed in the W3C drafts?
Are there any dramatic proposals in the works
for bedrock re-design, or improvement of the
ID - IDREF mechanism?

Thanks.

-rcc





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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jul 28 01:35:07 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: John E. Simpson's message of Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:05:35 -0400
Message-ID: <7982.199907272337@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

> 	

Actually this isn't quite right.  There's a typo (it should be )
but there's also a less obvious error.

The declaration above will define amp to contain the single character
"&", since character entities in entity definitions are expanded.
When the entity is used, it will be re-expanded, producing a syntax
error, since the parser encounters a bare ampersand.  The solution is
to use a "double-escape" in the definition, like this:

     

or equivalently

     

which is the "canonical" definition given in the XML spec.

The effect of this is that amp is defined as "&" and this is
expanded to produce "&" when the amp is referenced in the document.

-- Richard

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From pgrosso at arbortext.com  Wed Jul 28 01:43:48 1999
From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990727184545.006a3628@pophost.arbortext.com>

At 19:15 1999 07 27 -0400, John E. Simpson wrote:
>At 05:20 PM 07/27/1999 -0500, Paul Grosso wrote:
>>You cannot redeclare & which is one of XML's predefined
>>entities [1].  Just use & in place of &--no declaration
>>is necessary.
>>
>>[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent
>
>Actually, that's not 100% true: while & is a pre-defined entity, the
>questioner expressly mentioned that he/she wanted to use a DTD. As the
>second paragraph of the REC's section that you pointed to says:
>
>	All XML processors must recognize these entities whether they are 
>	declared or not. For interoperability, valid XML documents should 
>	declare these entities, like any others, before using them. 
>
>I believe the word "valid" there says that you can reliably use them
>without declaration only in well-formed documents. If you want an
>interoperable DTD, they've got to be declared. 

Provided that you take "redeclare" to mean defining it differently
than its pre-definition, what I said is 100% true.  You cannot 
redeclare pre-defined entities, and no declaration is necessary.

Use of a DTD does not imply validity.  DTDs can be used in the
well-formedness case too.  And, per the paragraph you quote, it 
is true that such entities need not be declared in either the
valid or well-formed case.  ("For interoperability" and "should" 
does not change the statement made in the first sentence of the
paragraph you quote.)  And, the rest of the paragraph after you
ended your quote goes on to say:

  If the entities in question are declared, they must be declared 
  as internal entities whose replacement text is the single character
  being escaped or a character reference to that character, as
  shown below. 

And the following table gives the pre-definitions.  The original
response to this question showed a different declaration for amp,
and that would not be allowable.

paul

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From pgrosso at arbortext.com  Wed Jul 28 01:48:48 1999
From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990727185056.006f6d20@pophost.arbortext.com>

At 00:37 1999 07 28 +0100, Richard Tobin wrote:
>... The solution is
>to use a "double-escape" in the definition, like this:
>
>     
>
>or equivalently
>
>     
>
>which is the "canonical" definition given in the XML spec.

I don't believe the first version is allowed despite your
claim that it is equivalent to the second.  I believe the
section 4.6 of the XML spec [1] requires that any declaration
of pre-defined entities to match *exactly* that shown in the
table therein.

paul

[1]  http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent
 

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jul 28 01:53:30 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: Paul Grosso's message of Tue, 27 Jul 1999 18:45:55 -0500
Message-ID: <8001.199907272356@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

>   If the entities in question are declared, they must be declared 
>   as internal entities whose replacement text is the single character
>   being escaped or a character reference to that character, as
>   shown below. 

I don't think it's clear whether the definitions "shown below" are
meant to be the only allowable ones, or are examples with the rest of
the sentence being the actual rule.  If it's the former, it should be
expressed more clearly.

-- Richard

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From simpson at polaris.net  Wed Jul 28 01:56:32 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: <7982.199907272337@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
References: 
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990727195734.008cd600@nexus.polaris.net>

At 12:37 AM 07/28/1999 +0100, Richard Tobin wrote:
> [correction of my fumblethumbed ampersand declaration, to:]
>     

Quite right. Thanks!

==========================================================
John E. Simpson            | The secret of eternal youth
simpson@polaris.net        | is arrested development.
http://www.flixml.org      |  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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From cvonsee at onramp.net  Wed Jul 28 02:38:25 1999
From: cvonsee at onramp.net (Chris von See)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Networked catalog systems?
Message-ID: <4.1.19990727193911.00a0ff10@mailhost.onramp.net>

Hi -

Does anyone know of a shareware/freeware or commercial system that would
allow me to retrieve resources such as DTDs, external entities, namespaces,
and stylesheets across a network by using their system identifier (or
perhaps their public identifier, in the case of public DTDs) as a generic
resource identifier rather than an explicit resource identifier?  I'm
trying to find a way to do versioning on these resources without having to
change the documents I've created, and I want to be able to take the SI for
these resources and transparently convert it to the "real" resource name.
I've seen the SYSTEM catalog entry in the SGML Entity Management document
(TR 9401:1997), and I've seen the "remap" feature in John Cowan's XML
Catalogs proposal, but I have yet to find a product that does what these
documents describe across a network rather than using local catalogs.  I
*could* just rename my current version (and the previous versions I have
laying around) and then put the new one at the well-known URI, but if at
all possible I'd rather just change some name-resolution mechanism to point
to a new resource (and besides - at some point I might be pointing at
resources that aren't mine).

Is this a reasonable thing to do?  If so, how can I do it?


Thanks,
Chris 
 
 -------------------------------------
 "Be very, very careful what you put into that head, because you will
never, ever get it out."
 
- Thomas Cardinal Wolsey (1471-1530)

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Wed Jul 28 02:47:56 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: FW: reftype (IDREF constraints)
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE61@THOR>

Robin Cover wrote:
>> So: are any of the new specs addressing the
>> matter of constraints upon referenced elements?
>> In current syntax, this would amount to saying
>> that IDREF(s) in a given case could only be
>> pointers to specified (classes of) GIs, as
>> approximately in the HyTime 'reftype'.

The schema datatypes document mentioned that whether there should be
constraining facets on a uri was an issue.  It is not a big jump to go a
constraint on the schema to also allow constraints on the target.

>From the Working Draft, section 3.2.14
 Issue (uri-scheme-facet): should we have a facet to allow a limitation to a
specific scheme?  It might be useful to able to say that something was not
only a URI, but that it was a "mailto" and not a "http://...". 

>> Where would/should this concern for scope
>> (semantics) be addressed in the W3C drafts?
>> Are there any dramatic proposals in the works
>> for bedrock re-design, or improvement of the
>> ID - IDREF mechanism?

I'm thinking schema datatypes would be a good place for part of it, if it
should be done.  You could allow the definition of facet on a datatype
derived from uri or idref to constrain the possible targets and then use the
datatype on the linking attribute.

Something like:


	
		
		
		
			
		
	

	
		
			
		
	

	
		
			
		
	


In the case of URIs, you could only express an intention as to what is on
the other side of the URI.  On an IDREF, the processor could determine if it
matched the facets.  The facets would have to allow a match to one or more
elementType's in the current schema or declared namespaces, one or more
elementTypes defined in a specific DTD or ad-hoc elements, mime types (if it
is a uri to a JPEG for instance), maybe others.  Again, I'm not sure it
should be done, but that is where I think it might fit best.

I'm really interested in seeing what the W3C Schema group has in store for
their next draft (as I'm sure most everybody on this list is.)

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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Wed Jul 28 02:56:18 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
References: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A504@SERVER1>
Message-ID: <003001bed894$08ec0ec0$334ffea9@litebook>

I am doing an application that seems similar to yours,
I am still studying and learning and this is my current conclusion.

XML data is parsed by a SAX parser with a DOM interface used to build a DOM
tree.
There is no need for a C struct for an XML document, use a DOM tree
by walking this tree the field details can be pulled into your app as you
need them.
Data in the DOM tree can be changed and nodes added as required.
The DOM tree can then be scanned and turned into XML data for transmission

References - http://www.python.org/ have a XML addition which is very
instructive though different for your requirements
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/  offer source code and a C++ Builder example
XML4C

I have worked through this and now looking very closely at all the DOM
literature and COBRA literature to properly aquaint myself with this.

http://www.jclark.com/xml/xp/index.html has an SP parser and a Jade parser
which I will be looking closely at

I must admit there is very little guidance and overview documents detailing
how all the parts and bits of XML are intended to fit together with each
other.




----- Original Message -----
From: Tan Yiping 
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 3:11 PM
Subject: RE: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema


> Thanks a lot to Steve, Mike, and John. Your information is very helpful.
>
> However, none of tools you mentioned sovle exactly my problem. My last
> message was too short, it seems. OK. Let me post a long one this time.
> Hope you are still interested in this topic.
>
> What I want to do basically is to exchange data in XML format between
> two
> applications over the network. Because XML docs are self-descriptive, it
> should be intelligent enough to tolerate some independent interface
> upgrading/extension in each of the communication partners. Quite a new
> XML application, isn't it?
>
> My current approach is to first define the data to be exchanged in XML
> Schema. Then I can parse the XML Schema in (because it's a well-formed
> XML doc) and generate XML doc against this schema in DOM objects,
> filling
> with the data from the a C struct. The point is, when the XML Schema is
> parsed in, I have the XML doc structure and variable names in memory.
>
> Let's say I have in memory an instance of data "tNewspaper" of type
> T_Newspaper, defined as following:
>
> typedef int T_BundleParam[6];
>
> typedef struct {
> float fUSD; file://Price in United States
> float fDM; file://Price in Germany
> }T_Price;
>
> typedef struct {
> char szName[8]; file://Newspaper name
> long nSubscription; file://Number of Subscription
> T_BundleParam tBundleParam; file://6 Bundling parameters
> T_Price tPrice; file://Price
> }T_Newspaper;
>
> The XML counterpart of the above definition can be, in IE5-compatible
> XML Schema language:
>
> 
>  xmlns:dt="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes">
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  maxOccurs="*"/>
> 
> 
> 
>
> (It will be perfect if I can define BundleParam as minOccurs="6"
> maxOccurs="6". However, the MSXML parser in IE5 doesn't support so.)
>
> Now I have made the above XML Schema manually. But I have hundreds
> of such kind of C structs to be converted. It would be very helpful if
> there is
> a tool to do the conversion, even if the tool can only translate 80% of
> the
> syntax correctly!
>
> Is such a tool exist?
>
> Yiping
> (Chinese has their given names at last position. There isn't an
> international
> standard on name format yet, sorry.)
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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>
>


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From ejfreed at infocanvas.com  Wed Jul 28 05:24:26 1999
From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik James Freed)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel XJP
In-Reply-To: <379DFF27.1F629EF2@textwise.com>
Message-ID: 

Vance,

Yes indeed this is not a pure DOM/XML issue, however the DC extension does
purport to
adhere to standard XML concepts.

The following is from the datachannel documentation on the
PreserveWhiteSpace parameter:

	"As per the XML Language Specification, this specifies the white space
handling for the 	application; that is, the default white space handling to
apply when 	xml:space="default". If preserveWhiteSpace is true, all white
space will be preserved 	regardless of the setting of any xml:space
attributes in the document. The white space 	will be preserved by additional
text nodes being present in the tree. If 	preserveWhiteSpace is false, then
the values of the xml:space attribute specified in 	the document will
determine whether white space is preserved or not. "

So with that clarification is this a bug or a feature?

erik

-----Original Message-----
From: Vance Christiaanse [mailto:vance@textwise.com]
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 11:49 AM
To: Erik James Freed
Cc: Xml-Dev; Keith Swenson
Subject: Re: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel
XJP


> Erik James Freed wrote:
>
> I am experiencing some strange behavior with the datachannel XML
> parser package (the most recent one).
> In my reading of the DOM spec, this is not appropriate behavior, but
> perhaps I am missing something.
>
> The behavior is that when I do a 'setPreserveWhiteSpace(true)' before
> parsing a document, and the document
> contains strings with entity references such as:
>
>      < fubar > 
>
> when I then do a getText() on element1, what is returned is a
> java.lang.String that contains a null (char 0) for each entity
> reference.
>
> These nulls of course confound the rest of the code I am writing. In
> side the DOM tree the entity reference objects are happily holding the
> appropriate text representation  i.e. '<' and  '>'.
>
> Turning off white space preservation makes the getText() place
> appropriate decoded entity references in the resulting string.
>
> Bug or feature?
>
> erik
>
>
> Erik James Freed
> InfoCanvas Software


I don't see a setPreserveWhiteSpace(...) method or preserveWhiteSpace
class or instance variable in the DOM spec and I don't see getText() or
a text variable either. The answer to "bug or feature" would be up to
the

> datachannel XML parser package

Vance

Vance Christiaanse
TextWise, LLC
vance@textwise.com



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From simpson at polaris.net  Wed Jul 28 06:05:57 1999
From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990727184545.006a3628@pophost.arbortext.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990728000648.00a827e0@nexus.polaris.net>

Wait wait wait. Major disconnect here. It's hard enough to parse markup
without having to parse English, too. :)

To recap, the contentious paragraph on predefined entities at:
	http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent
says, in its entirety:

	All XML processors must recognize these entities whether they are 
	declared or not. For interoperability, valid XML documents should 
	declare these entities, like any others, before using them. If the 
	entities in question are declared, they must be declared as 
	internal entities whose replacement text is the single character
	being escaped or a character reference to that character, as
	shown below. 

Of this, at 06:45 PM 07/27/1999 -0500, Paul Grosso wrote:
>You cannot redeclare pre-defined entities, and no declaration is 
>necessary.

It's possible I'm missing something extremely (perversely) subtle, but I
don't get the sense of "*cannot* redeclare" [emphasis added] at all in the
above passage. True, it does say that "all XML processors must recognize"
the predefined entities. If no redeclaration at all were permitted, the
sentence beginning "If the entities in question are declared" wouldn't make
a lot of sense, right?

Furthermore, I think that saying, archly:
>Use of a DTD does not imply validity.  DTDs can be used in the
>well-formedness case too.  
is really a bit of hair-splitting unwarranted by the simple question asked
in the first message in this thread. Malliks, the original questioner,
included this DTD fragment in the post:
	
and went on to ask:
>How should the DTD be written to accomadate
>characters such as &?

If one were determined, I guess he/she could interpret the question as
asking "Assume I want to develop a DTD for my documents but don't care
whether they're valid...." I'm not that determined.

>And the following table gives the pre-definitions.  The original [i.e., my]
>response to this question showed a different declaration for amp,
>and that would not be allowable.

About the table, I agree with Richard Tobin's assessment in another post:
>I don't think it's clear whether the definitions "shown below" are
>meant to be the only allowable ones, or are examples with the rest of
>the sentence being the actual rule.  If it's the former, it should be
>expressed more clearly.

Richard had earlier pointed out the typo in the entity declaration, and I
acknowledged that it was a typo. So disallowing the "different declaration
for amp," yeah, you may be right about that. But allowing *no* declaration?

[As for poor Malliks: God only knows what you're to make of all this!]

==========================================================
John E. Simpson            | The secret of eternal youth
simpson@polaris.net        | is arrested development.
http://www.flixml.org      |  -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

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From ricko at allette.com.au  Wed Jul 28 06:52:47 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
Message-ID: <002801bed8b5$c20f85f0$26f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: Trevor Croll 

>There is no need for a C struct for an XML document, use a DOM tree
>by walking this tree the field details can be pulled into your app as
you
>need them.

Something that may be useful if you are going the C & DOM route is
the dom_interface.h  header file at
http://www.sinica.edu.tw/~ricko/src/dom_interface.h
or http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/schemas.html

This file gives a C version of the  DOM level 1 API.
It is basically just a big struct of pointers to individual DOM
functions,
which you have to provide. It gives the design of the interface, but
not the implementation: you don't have to search through CORBA
and W3C documentation as much to get to first base.

 If you use this, it should make porting your program (e.g. if other
DOM implementations in C also use the API, to C++ DOMs,
or even across to Java) easier. Even if you do make a DTD to C struct
converter, you can still have a DOM interface to it, to allow very
generic operations such as navigation. Also, increasingly more
programmers will be familiar with the DOM interface and
concepts. You can figure out the efficiency tradeoffs in your
own context.


Rick Jelliffe


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From ricko at allette.com.au  Wed Jul 28 07:02:31 1999
From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
Message-ID: <003101bed8b7$22ea5570$26f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU>


From: John E. Simpson 

>It's possible I'm missing something extremely (perversely) subtle, but
I
>don't get the sense of "*cannot* redeclare" [emphasis added] at all in
the
>above passage. True, it does say that "all XML processors must
recognize"
>the predefined entities. If no redeclaration at all were permitted, the
>sentence beginning "If the entities in question are declared" wouldn't
make
>a lot of sense, right?

There is a similar issue with xml:lang.

Some processors (e.g. early LotusXSL and others) did not have built-in
declarations for xml:lang.  But when you tried to give one, it required
a namespace declaration. And then it would say that declaring an
xml namespace was not allowed.

I think it is a sign of inadequate testing. Developers should check that
their products allow xml:lang in WF, valid and namespaced documents.
Even just putting xml:lang="en-US"  on one  element in a test file
should
expose  the problem.

The spec says "In valid documents, this attribute, like any other, must
be
declared if  it is used."

Rick Jelliffe


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From tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net  Wed Jul 28 08:13:57 1999
From: tanyp at mail.conuco.cn.net (Tan Yiping)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: Convertor wanted: C struct to XML schema 
Message-ID: <70D0A534EC01D2119E7500C0F00426A407A523@SERVER1>

Trevor Croll wrote:

	>There is no need for a C struct for an XML document, use a DOM
tree
	>by walking this tree the field details can be pulled into your
app as you
	>need them.

Yes, you are right if you just read in an XML doc and manipulate the
data
inside with the DOM tree. I do the same. What I also need to do is to 
generate programmatically an XML doc which represent the data and 
structure of a C struct. So the fact is not that I need C struct for XML
doc,
but C struct is just the data source where my XML doc is build on.

Yiping

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From om at lgsi.co.in  Wed Jul 28 10:44:47 1999
From: om at lgsi.co.in (Om Band)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:05 2004
Subject: XML through SSL ??
Message-ID: <007901bed8d6$5a5e8f20$d901a8c0@lgsi.co.in>

Hi,
We have implemented SSL (Secured Socket Layer)  in our project. When the XML "FORM" contacts the (Java) Servlet it should throw an XML page with *https* protocol...... But the browser says "XSL : Access is denied" !!

The same page I can see directly (by address) in browser (through https), but not programmatically through servlet !! XML is also referring XSL through https.

(But the same servlet can throw HTML page through https !!!!! So I guess it finds the XML but not the XSL)

But one more catch is......as my servlet extends HttpServlet, the XML "FORM" is contacting the servlet through "http" & not through "https".........[ even I tried through https, but the FORM doesn't recognizes the servlet !!! I guess Java Servlet doesn't support SSL, am I right ?? ]

Is anybody doing similar work ??

Thanks
Regds.......Om

 
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From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net  Wed Jul 28 10:41:19 1999
From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: XML trade off 1 - DTD vs XML Schema
Message-ID: 

[Sorry the following is quite long.]

Rick Jelliffe wrote:
> So does the recipient system look through the document and then
> request a schema server for the appropriate minimal schema to be
> generated and sent, or does the server already have a separate schema
> generated for each instance?

Mmm ... neither really. You only (mostly, but we'll keep it simple for
now) need the schema for the root node, and you can generate it
automatically (recursively). All I have done is written a routine that
'digs out' the schema definition for a node and all its possible
children and attributes. This means that I can request a schema at any
level of detail. The same principle is applied to my data. A few
scenarios might illustrate this:

1. A server or user requests an article from my XML server:

	http://view.IED-IED.ied-support.net/documents ...
          /article[@ArticleType="interview"]

and the following is returned (note the schema URL):


      
 
  
   Try visiting
    this lovely site
   . You'll like it.
  
  More text
 

      

Now, when the parser follows the URL for the schema my server dishes up:


 
 
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
  
  
  
 


2. If I was to now request just the first paragraph of the article:

	http://view.IED-IED.ied-support.net/documents ...
          /article[@ArticleType="interview"]/*/para[1]

I would get back:


 Try visiting
 this lovely site
 . You'll like it.


All my routine has to do to construct the URL for the schema, is to take
the general schema area for the same server the data is from and append
the name of the element type. This could obviously be modified so that
there is a separate 'schema server', for example if there was a
centralised repository like BizTalk, or whatever. Note that the returned
XML is not a 'fragment', as mentioned in previous emails, but correctly
formed documents. (I wrote a long piece ages ago about why I preferred
to think of XML documents as units of transfer, and distinct from
'documents' as we normally conceive them.) However, there are situations
where we do wrap this XML document in a fragment container, for example
if dealing with an editor when we would need to know where to put the
data back to if it had been changed.

Anyway, when the parser follows the URL for the schema all the server
need dish up now is: 


 
 
  
 


In other words, as I said in my previous contribution, why would you
bother delivering 100k of schema for a 1k document? The only reason
people are thinking that they would do this is because they are still
thinking that 1 document = 1 file. File systems are uncool, man ...
databases are where it's at daddy-o. (There's a Timothy Leary revival
this side of the water so I'm just practising.) For example, with my
database-driven approach I could easily extend the functionality to
allow:

    http://view.ied-ied.ied-support.net/schema/1.2/Para

In previous discussions on DTDs versus XML approaches to schemas I have
argued that this ability to dynamically generate only enough of the
schema as you need, (and the ability to cope with namespaces, which I
haven't covered here) is my major reason for preferring XML schemas over
DTDs. I'd even go further and predict that it is one of the major reason
that XML schemas will win out over DTDs (the other is the ability to mix
schema).

Does this confuse or clarify the point, Rick? :-)

Best regards,

Mark Birbeck
http://www.iedigital.net/

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From jean-vincent.divita at sema.be  Wed Jul 28 15:20:40 1999
From: jean-vincent.divita at sema.be (Jean-vincent DI VITA)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: expat XML parser ??
Message-ID: <379F8260.781D@sema.be>

hi,

I'm a new expat XML parser user, and I've just installed expat on my
computer. I'm trying to run bin/elements.exe in order to know what this
library allows to do, but it doesn't work...

if any one know how I must use this "elements" binary, and how it works,
please let me know.
I'm working under windows-nt.

thank you in advance for your help,

best regards,
jean.

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jul 28 16:49:45 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: [REQ] Sample RDF documents online?
Message-ID: <14239.6101.140423.797412@localhost.localdomain>

I would be grateful for pointers to any conformant RDF documents
available online, including (but not limited to) large collections of
serialized objects with complex interrelationships.  

I am aware of the big RDF document of describing Linux RPMs from
rpmfind.net (though I don't actually know it's online location --
rpmfind puts in on my harddrive automatically).

  
Thanks, and all the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 28 18:36:10 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: Questions about DOM 1.0
References: <3.0.5.32.19990726121146.008ff070@kelly>
Message-ID: <000701bed918$16202340$d506aace@brownell.org>

These should go to the www-dom list, as noted on the DOM spec.

However, I think that both of them have already gone (about
six months now, at least for the first one) and I don't recall
an answer (a recent one might exist though).  Both would seem to
deserve errata to the spec.

Re #1, consistency seems to argue that one of the two choices be
used (I think it was throwing the exception).

Re #2, Setting value of a node that has no value isn't defined to
do anything ... so it makes sense that it do so (report no error,
cause no other action either).  The only nodes that can be readonly
are related to entity expansion (children of EntityReference and
Entity nodes).

- Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: Holger Fl?rke 
To: 
Sent: Monday, July 26, 1999 3:11 AM
Subject: Questions about DOM 1.0


> Reading the DOM 1.0 recommendation leads to the follwing questions:
>
> - Interface NamedNodeMap, Method removeNamedItem
>   DOM says:
>     Return Value: The node removed from the map or NULL if no node with
> such a name exists.
>     Exceptions: NOT_FOUND_ERR: Raised if there is no node named 'name' in
> the map
>
>   If you throw an exception, why return something at all?
>
> - Interface Node, Attribute nodeValue
>   DOM says:
>     Exceptions on setting: NO_MODIFICATION_ALLOWED_ERR: raised when the
> node is readonly.
>
>   Certain nodes (ie Document) does not have any nodeValue at all (NULL).
> What will happen if someone tries to set the nodeValue on such a node?
What
> does "readonly" mean?
>
> Holger Floerke
>



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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 28 18:48:47 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: SAX writer
References: 
Message-ID: <001801bed919$bc6b21e0$d506aace@brownell.org>


----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Cheek 
To: 'listserv:java-xml list' ;
'listserv:xml-dev list' 
Sent: Tuesday, July 27, 1999 10:00 AM
Subject: SAX writer


> Herein lies the problem - my user will perform various tasks on the GUI
> tree that cause my Document to call removeNodeFromParent(..) and
> insertNode(..),etc.   I now need to serialize my new Document object to
> disk as an xml file.  I cannot find any DOM classes or methods to do
> this.. can anyone help?  I do not want to use IBM's or Sun's DOMWriter
> classes as we are not sure yet which parser library we are going to
> implement.

Grab what's at:

    http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml

and take a look.  I think three classes may be of interest:

    - org.brownell.xml.DomBuilder ... using your choice of DOM
      implementations (Sun, IBM, Oracle, etc) this builds the
      DOM tree using any SAX (or SAX2 alpha) parser.

    - org.brownell.xml.DomParser2 ... walks a DOM tree and
      emits a stream of SAX2 (alpha) events (SAX 1.0 being a
      strict subset)

    - org.brownell.xml.EchoHandler ... given a stream of SAX
      (or, better, SAX2 alpha) events, writes out the XML.

> One other question - I like the idea of using SAX instead of DOM to be
> able to drop in any parser dynamically... Has anyone seen any code that
> uses SAX to create an xml object in code, then make changes, then write
> that xml object back into a file? I am not finding much sample SAX code
> out there to help us explore the power of an event-driven model.
> Especially - writing an xml object to an xml file with SAX.

See the above.  It uses DOM for the intermediate representation, and
lets you pick your favorite SAX parser(s).

- Dave




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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jul 28 18:53:01 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: XML through SSL ??
References: <007901bed8d6$5a5e8f20$d901a8c0@lgsi.co.in>
Message-ID: <002d01bed91a$604d2c40$d506aace@brownell.org>

You must have configured things wrong.  Java Servlets have supported
SSL since their first major release -- "https" is just like HTTP except
that it's got the "Secure Sockets _LAYER_" between the HTTP and TCP.

I've sent XML to an HTTP(S) servlet, so I can testify it works.  But
check your web server configuration -- the "https" parts of servers
are normally distinct from the insecure "http" ones, so being able
to contact a servlet via "http" doesn't mean it'll work securely.

- Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: Om Band
To: xml-developers ; XML-General Discussion
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 1999 1:51 AM
Subject: XML through SSL ??


Hi,
We have implemented SSL (Secured Socket Layer) in our project. When the XML
"FORM" contacts the (Java) Servlet it should throw an XML page with *https*
protocol...... But the browser says "XSL : Access is denied" !!

The same page I can see directly (by address) in browser (through https),
but not programmatically through servlet !! XML is also referring XSL
through https.

(But the same servlet can throw HTML page through https !!!!! So I guess it
finds the XML but not the XSL)

But one more catch is......as my servlet extends HttpServlet, the XML "FORM"
is contacting the servlet through "http" & not through
https".........[ even I tried through https, but the FORM doesn't recognizes
the servlet !!! I guess Java Servlet doesn't support SSL, am I right ?? ]

Is anybody doing similar work ??

Thanks
Regds.......Om




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From XML at adpersonnel.com  Wed Jul 28 19:47:04 1999
From: XML at adpersonnel.com (XML)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: XML Opportunity Info
Message-ID: <910239040D4CD211BF40006097A4BD66080805@SERVER>

The XML revolution was fostered by a huge customer demand to build
applications which can move and consume data around the network. Today,
XML is everywhere on the Net. We are entering a new phase where data and
the services associated with this data will be broadly available. In
this brave new age of servers serving data and not only UI anymore,
there is a requirement for a first class client which can consume and
integrate (XML) data from the multiple data sources providing added
value to the customer. The goal is to build an architecture particularly
suited to support the componentization, discovery and usage of
distributed services and data fragments remotely located on the network.
The difficulty and the beauty comes from the fact that XML could
represent structured information which could scale from structured
documents to very relational data. Integrating data coming from diverse
sources into documents, presenting it with multiple views, enabling the
user to interact with it in a document oriented way will provide the
user with a metaphor he understands (documents) while giving him the
added value coming from data. 

You will help us define our underlying platform, based on XML and XSL,
on top of which is built a full-featured productivity suite including
browsing, e-mail, personal information management, Web publishing,
collaborative document, generic WYSIWYG XML authoring, spreadsheet and
presentation editing. 

Please forward your resume or give directions to a URL with information
describing relevant achievements


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From yiminz at timberline.com  Wed Jul 28 20:32:58 1999
From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: XMLNews-Meta and XMLNews-Story
Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70AD@laposte.timberline.com>

I have been reading through the documentation of XMLNews-Meta and
XMLNews-Story and it seems to me that XMLNews-Meat is a superset of
XMLNews-Story (which is implied in the documentation). However, when I read
the XMLNews-Story specifications I didn't see any connections with
XMLNews-Meta. I am confused about what is going on. Can anybody help me out?

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From eisen at pobox.com  Wed Jul 28 21:10:16 1999
From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: XMLNews-Meta and XMLNews-Story
References: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70AD@laposte.timberline.com>
Message-ID: <379F5617.6CC77B6@pobox.com>

yimin zhu wrote:

> I have been reading through the documentation of XMLNews-Meta and
> XMLNews-Story and it seems to me that XMLNews-Meat is a superset of
> XMLNews-Story (which is implied in the documentation). However, when I read
> the XMLNews-Story specifications I didn't see any connections with
> XMLNews-Meta. I am confused about what is going on. Can anybody help me out?

>From my understanding from reading the tutorial and spec, it is a meta format that contains
information "about" a particular XMLNews story. It's relationship to XMLNews is loosely
analagous to the role between the RDF Site Summary (RSS) and the actual story whose content
is usually HTML. So, it contains information like byline, headline, release date, expire
date, language, classification, as well other optional elements that might be used in news
syndication.

Jonathan.


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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Wed Jul 28 21:44:20 1999
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: [REQ] Sample RDF documents online?
In-Reply-To: <14239.6101.140423.797412@localhost.localdomain>; from David Megginson on Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 10:51:32AM -0400
References: <14239.6101.140423.797412@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <19990728154619.D29781@w3.org>

On Wed, Jul 28, 1999 at 10:51:32AM -0400, David Megginson wrote:
> I would be grateful for pointers to any conformant RDF documents
> available online, including (but not limited to) large collections of
> serialized objects with complex interrelationships.  
> 
> I am aware of the big RDF document of describing Linux RPMs from
> rpmfind.net (though I don't actually know it's online location --
> rpmfind puts in on my harddrive automatically).

  They are at http://rpmfind.net/linux/RDF/

 Note that there is one large index which actuelly get downloaded
but most of the database used by the rpmfind tool is actually a large
set of interconnected RDF documents (375 MBytes of small RDF files).

However they are far from perfect, I wouldn't call them conformant
(shame on me) the syntax need revamping, but
the service is functionning and I'm a bit short on time w.r.t 
upgrading the software. Also this kind of testcase is useful to
learn what coding mistakes to avoid: I didn't properly coded the
namespace analysis which makes the backward compatibility with
existing installed clients difficult in case of upgrade . 

Daniel

-- 
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Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind,
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML,
http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe.

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From kcampb at cwjamaica.com  Wed Jul 28 22:58:20 1999
From: kcampb at cwjamaica.com (Kay Campbell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: xml - assemblying entities
Message-ID: <000101bed94d$3a11b220$140010ac@multimedia>

I am a newcomer to this XML technology - weeks old - and I am trying to find some info on the web that will help me assemble a set of external entities depending on some conditions.  Here is what I am trying to accomplish.  

My document has over 400 long sections so I have split it up into 400 entities.  Now at any date in time, any of the sections may change and I would be required to keep the sections as it was and in its modified state.  Say, for example, section 40 was first modified on Jan 12, 1999 then it was modified on June 05, 1999.  I wouldn't overwrite the Jan 12, 1999 entity with the modifications that occured on Jun 05.  What I would do is to make a copy of the original Jan 12 entity as a new entity with the Jun 05 modifications.  This is because at any point in time I might want to view the document as it was at a particular point in time.  

That means that if I asked for the document as at Jan 31, 1999 - I should assemble all the sections whose "date identifier"  is equal to Jan 31 or the closest one less than that date.

Is there a way, to index XML entities based on multiple identifiers/ elements so that I can dynamically put together only the entities that I need?

Note that I may have 16 such documents all split up into its respective entities so in putting the document together I would need to be able to identify from the mixed set of entities, the document, the date of last modification, etc.  What related to an entity would allow me to make these distinctions and how would I use this to manipulate the entities?


Wayne Walker
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From Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com  Thu Jul 29 03:09:24 1999
From: Jon.Bosak at eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: Schedule for XML Developers' Conference August 19-20
Message-ID: <199907290111.SAA23168@boethius.eng.sun.com>

The schedule of presentations to be given at the third annual GCA XML
Developers' Conference is now available at

   http://www.gca.org/conf/xmldev99/

As always, this intimate, one-track technical conference features the
very best of current experience in XML and related technologies in a
setting designed to facilitate communication between advanced workers
in the field.  As always, it's being held in one of the most enjoyable
cities in North America -- cosmopolitan Montreal, Quebec.  And as
always, you have just a few days to decide you're coming before the
hotel rooms disappear.

We hope you can join us.

Jon Bosak
Conference Chair


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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Thu Jul 29 07:16:56 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: SAXON 4.5 is available
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F005@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

By the time you read this SAXON 4.5 should be available at
http://users.iclway.co.uk/mhkay/saxon/ 

The new version implements the 9 July 99 XSL spec, in both the compiler and
the interpreter. "Instant SAXON", the packaged version of the interpreter
for Windows, is also available. As well as moving to the new syntax, this
release plugs a few of the remaining gaps in SAXON's XSL coverage, for
example it now supports xsl:include and the document() function. (I still
haven't got around to namespaces, though).

I've cut out a lot of dead wood in the Java API, so if you're using SAXON as
a Java class library rather than for its XSL processing, you may be better
off sticking with the previous version.

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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Thu Jul 29 15:29:14 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:06 2004
Subject: encoding incompatibilities between XT and XP in FOP
Message-ID: <011001bed9c6$74ea0b80$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

[I'm posting to xml-dev rather than to JamesC as I know *I'm* doing
something wrong and not JamesC's software.]

As some of you are aware, my formatter, FOP, either takes an XML
serialisation of a formatting tree (ie the output of an XSLT engine) or
directly calls XT and gets the result tree as a series of SAX events.

I've noticed a problem in the former relating to character encoding.

I have a stylesheet that uses • for the bullet in a list. If I run it
through XT (next to last version) and save the result tree as a file, the
bullet character is represented literally (ie it isn't a character
reference). Fine, except that when FOP reads that file (via XP) it doesn't
get a single 0x2022 character, but three characters: 0xE2 0x20AC 0xA2. These
three characters are what XP is giving my Handler.

What am I doing wrong?

Interestingly, if I put • in the result tree file manually, it works
fine. *Also*, if I use the second method of running FOP and get FOP to call
XT and get the result tree as SAX events, it works.

James Tauber


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From nascif at nortelnetworks.com  Thu Jul 29 15:41:28 1999
From: nascif at nortelnetworks.com (Nascif Neto)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: DTD for SNMP MIBs
Message-ID: <37A05A60.7D0605C1@nortelnetworks.com>

Hi all,

Is there a "standard" DTD for representing SNMP MIB documents ?
What about CORBA IDL documents ?

Regards,
    Nascif

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jul 29 16:42:09 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding incompatibilities between XT and XP in FOP
In-Reply-To: James Tauber's message of Thu, 29 Jul 1999 21:27:05 +0800
Message-ID: <199907291444.PAA04494@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

> I have a stylesheet that uses • for the bullet in a list. If I run it
> through XT (next to last version) and save the result tree as a file, the
> bullet character is represented literally (ie it isn't a character
> reference).

Exactly what bytes is it represented by, and what encoding declaration
does the file have?

The UTF-8 representation of 0x2022 is 0xE2 0x80 0xA2.  0x80 is the
representation of the Euro symbol in some MS Windows Codepages, and
its unicode number is 0x20AC.  This suggests that the file is being
written out in UTF-8 but read in as if it were some Latin-1 related
MS Windows code.

If it doesn't have one, try adding an explicit
 
 

to the saved file.

-- Richard

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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Thu Jul 29 17:25:39 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding incompatibilities between XT and XP in FOP
References: <199907291444.PAA04494@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <03e301bed9d6$c76275e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

I tried putting in an explicit declaration of UTF-8 but that didn't help.

I stepped through the code and it appears XP is treating it as big-endian
UTF-16. By the time XP is reading off its buffer of bytes, they are 0x00
0xE2 0x20 0xAC 0x00 0xA2.

James



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From yiminz at timberline.com  Thu Jul 29 17:56:09 1999
From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: RDF and XML Namespace
Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70B5@laposte.timberline.com>

What are the relationships between RDF and XML Namespace?

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From crism at oreilly.com  Thu Jul 29 17:50:34 1999
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding incompatibilities between XT and XP in FOP
In-Reply-To: <03e301bed9d6$c76275e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
	(jtauber@jtauber.com)
Message-ID: <199907291552.LAA19500@ruby.ora.com>

[James Tauber]
> I stepped through the code and it appears XP is treating it as
> big-endian UTF-16. By the time XP is reading off its buffer of
> bytes, they are 0x00 0xE2 0x20 0xAC 0x00 0xA2.

What is XP using to read the file?  You mentioned you were using
Microsoft's Java implementation; I suspect that the problem is there.
The conversion of 0x80 to 0x20AC makes me very suspicious, because the
use of 0x80 for Euro is a relatively recent Windows codepage change,
so I'm inclined to suspect the Microsoft Java implementation.

-Chris
-- 

http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>

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From John.Martin at ncmail.net  Thu Jul 29 20:26:11 1999
From: John.Martin at ncmail.net (John Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Validation Error
Message-ID: <37A09D38.38194B99@ncmail.net>

I am validating this DTD:











And I am getting this validation error from the parser.

Parser fatal error at line 3, character 34.
C:\My Documents\XML\FuelTaCS_working\SVC_USERGRP_INQ.DTD:3:34:E: an
entity end in a token separator
must terminate an entity referenced in the same group

I don't see the problem.  I'd appreciate another pair of eyes.
Thanks,
John


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From sblackbu at erols.com  Thu Jul 29 22:40:25 1999
From: sblackbu at erols.com (Samuel R. Blackburn)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Syntax Questions
Message-ID: <00d501beda02$d53e4410$0100a8c0@sammy>

I just published the latest version of my freeware parser (for NT)
and came across a couple of interesting differences between my
parser and MSXML. What I'm wondering is which is correct?

First Problem

MSXML (v5.00.2314.1000) will not parse the following:

Loves Laura
Loves Laura

It says there can be only one top level element in a document.
The spec says in section 2.1 that a document contains one or more
elements.

Last Problem

MSXML doesn't like multiple colons in an element name. It will
not parse the following:

With Milk

But rules 4 and 5 do not impose this restriction.

What gives?

TIA,

Sam
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sam_blackburn/wfc.htm




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From crism at oreilly.com  Thu Jul 29 22:55:08 1999
From: crism at oreilly.com (Chris Maden)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Syntax Questions
In-Reply-To: <00d501beda02$d53e4410$0100a8c0@sammy> (sblackbu@erols.com)
Message-ID: <199907292057.QAA00429@ruby.ora.com>

[Samuel R. Blackburn]
> It says there can be only one top level element in a document.  The
> spec says in section 2.1 that a document contains one or more
> elements.

Eh?
   Document                                                          
   [1]  document ::= prolog element Misc*                 

> MSXML doesn't like multiple colons in an element name. It will not
> parse the following:
> 
> With Milk
> 
> But rules 4 and 5 do not impose this restriction.

The namespaces spec () does.
MSXML implements XML+namespaces; there's no requirement that all XML
parsers do, but it's probably a good idea to at least follow the
syntactic restrictions, since colons in XML 1.0 names are reserved for
experimental use pending publication of the namespaces Recommendation,
which has since happened.

-Chris
-- 

http://www.oreilly.com/people/staff/crism/ +1.617.499.7487
90 Sherman Street, Cambridge, MA 02140 USA" NDATA SGML.Geek>

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jul 30 00:05:53 1999
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Syntax Questions
In-Reply-To: Samuel R. Blackburn's message of Thu, 29 Jul 1999 16:42:10 -0400
Message-ID: <10402.199907292208@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

> The spec says in section 2.1 that a document contains one or more
> elements.

Yes, but only one of them is at the top level.  The others, if any,
are nested inside it.

-- Richard


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From litebook at powerup.com.au  Fri Jul 30 00:11:59 1999
From: litebook at powerup.com.au (Trevor Croll)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Simplified approach and options for small applications
Message-ID: <008c01beda0f$7ae5d5c0$334ffea9@litebook>

                                My design and knowledge is still evolving:
I need to produce a file which goes like this

     [Indexed]
        
            
            
                
                
                
            
        
    


The DOM tree in this approach allows me to take say contact details as a fragment and make it available in another place in my application, I would assume XQL would likewise allow me to collect a large number of these fragments from conforming records and create another DOM tree. Example all line items in all the invoices for this month.Which can then be sorted according to their GL sales codes and summed for each GL sales code to produce reports eg. sales by product group last month.

My requirement falls outside the standards in that I do not need to have my internal organisation conform to the standards. I wish to generate XML conforming data which can then have a style sheet applied to them to produce HTML or XHTML documents.

ie. The output of my application is XML while I have a database of XML "records" indexed in a Btree file for quick lookup and listing on the screen in a specialised lookup dialog.

Is there any simple C++ parsers SAX and / or DOM like available. Most of the Code I have looked at aims to conform to the DOM specs while I only need to have code which builds a DOM tree which can be walked.

How do other people tackle this sort of problem?




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From yiminz at timberline.com  Fri Jul 30 00:34:27 1999
From: yiminz at timberline.com (yimin zhu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: RDF
Message-ID: <2D722CFF0999D111AB860001FA375F1002FB70C8@laposte.timberline.com>

Can anybody tell me how to use RDF schema and RDF model in applications? And
in what circumstances they are required or very useful? 

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From WWebber at romac.com  Fri Jul 30 00:46:29 1999
From: WWebber at romac.com (Webber, William D.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: XML interest group forming in Austin Texas USA | Disregard if not
	 in Austin
Message-ID: 

 	I am forming an XML interest/user group here in Austin Texas.  If
interested in attending, please e-mail me privately at webber@texas.net or
wwebber@romac.com.
 I plan on us meeting once a month to discuss all topics related to XML (VB
parsers, Java parsers, real world implementations, etc..) . I already have
some local experts planning to attend regularly. Our next meeting will be
August 19th from 7 pm to 9pm. There is no fee for coming (now or in the
future) to the meetings.

Cheers, Will Webber--
512-231-3619
webber@texas.net

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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Fri Jul 30 03:16:43 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding incompatibilities between XT and XP in FOP
References: <199907291552.LAA19500@ruby.ora.com>
Message-ID: <004701beda29$510a5ae0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Maden 
> [James Tauber]
> > I stepped through the code and it appears XP is treating it as
> > big-endian UTF-16. By the time XP is reading off its buffer of
> > bytes, they are 0x00 0xE2 0x20 0xAC 0x00 0xA2.
>
> What is XP using to read the file?  You mentioned you were using
> Microsoft's Java implementation; I suspect that the problem is there.
> The conversion of 0x80 to 0x20AC makes me very suspicious, because the
> use of 0x80 for Euro is a relatively recent Windows codepage change,
> so I'm inclined to suspect the Microsoft Java implementation.

I did too until I tried it with Sun's JDK and it behaved identically.

In com.jclark.xml.sax.Driver, there is a method OpenEntity that begins:

private OpenEntity openInputSource(org.xml.sax.InputSource inputSource)
throws IOException {
    Reader reader = inputSource.getCharacterStream();
    String encoding;
    InputStream in;
    if (reader != null) {
      in = new ReaderInputStream(reader);
      encoding = "UTF-16";
    }
    else {
      in = inputSource.getByteStream();
      encoding = inputSource.getEncoding();
    }
    ...

The encoding gets set there and never changes.

James Tauber


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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Fri Jul 30 03:47:10 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
Message-ID: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

I fixed the encoding problem after trying this morning an idea I had last
night while trying to sleep (isn't it always the way).

In short, I changed in my CommandLine (the class run when FOP takes a FOT
file as input) code the line:

   SAXProcessor fop = new SAXProcessor(parser, new InputSource(new
FileReader(args[0])));

to the line:

   SAXProcessor fop = new SAXProcessor(parser,
com.jclark.xsl.sax.Driver.fileInputSource(args[0]));

In other words, rather than creating an InputSource using a FileReader, I
used James Clark's "fileInputSource" method in XT to make a URL out of a
file and create the InputSource from the URL string.

I've included James Clark's code below.

Ironically, using exactly the same code in my XTCommandLine (the class run
when FOP takes XML+XSL and calls XT from within) code a few weeks ago fixed
a completely different bug.

I now think I realise the error of my ways: I used java.io.FileReader. To
quote Java in a Nutshell "If you want to read Unicode characters from a file
that uses some encoding other than the default encoding for the locale, you
must explicitly create your own InputStreamReader to perform the
byte-to-character conversion".

The culprit is FileReader. It is the one doing the strange "read UTF-8 as
Windows code page".

James Tauber



------
Code extract from com.jclark.xsl.sax.Driver:

  /**
   * Generates an InputSource from a file name.
   */
  static public InputSource fileInputSource(String str) {
    return fileInputSource(new File(str));
  }

  static public InputSource fileInputSource(File file) {
    String path = file.getAbsolutePath();
    String fSep = System.getProperty("file.separator");
    if (fSep != null && fSep.length() == 1)
      path = path.replace(fSep.charAt(0), '/');
    if (path.length() > 0 && path.charAt(0) != '/')
      path = '/' + path;
    try {
      return new InputSource(new URL("file", null, path).toString());
    }
    catch (java.net.MalformedURLException e) {
      /* According to the spec this could only happen if the file
  protocol were not recognized. */
      throw new Error("unexpected MalformedURLException");
    }
  }



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 12:42:54 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: Important SAX Guideline (was: encoding problem fixed)
In-Reply-To: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <14241.32978.164504.427572@localhost.localdomain>

James Tauber writes:

 > In short, I changed in my CommandLine (the class run when FOP takes
 > a FOT file as input) code the line:
 > 
 >    SAXProcessor fop = new SAXProcessor(parser, new InputSource(new
 > FileReader(args[0])));
 > 
 > to the line:
 > 
 >    SAXProcessor fop = new SAXProcessor(parser,
 > com.jclark.xsl.sax.Driver.fileInputSource(args[0]));

You could also have tried

  SAXProcessor fop =
    new SAXProcessor(parser, new InputSource(new FileInputStream(args[0])));

Here is a good, general SAX guideline:

  Always use an InputStream in preference to a Reader when you don't
  know the XML document's character encoding in advance.

I know that that seems backwards from ordinary Java usage,
but when you use an InputStream, a SAX parser can often (usually?)
autodetect a document's encoding because it has access to the raw
bytes; when you use a Reader, the SAX parser gets the characters
predigested.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 16:12:01 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: ANN: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
Message-ID: <14241.44833.857001.117796@localhost.localdomain>

I have placed a medium-sized RDF sample online at the following
location:

  http://www.megginson.com/samples/rdf/airports.rdf

This document is 811,388 bytes long, and contains entries for 2,963
international airports.  These are taken from
(not-entirely-consistently-formatted) text file available at

  http://www.primenet.com/~rfwatts/uteworld/airports.txt

and the information is sometimes pretty spotty.  Soon, I'd like to add 
RDF versions of a few METAR (surface weather observation) files
pointing into this one, so that people can experiment with relations
among multiple RDF documents.


Samples
-------

Here are sample records for the four airports I'll happen to be flying
through next week:


  CYOW
  Ottawa Int'L. Ont., Canada 
  YOW
  45-19N
  075-40W
  114M



  KLGA
  New York, La Guardia Airport, NY, United States 
  LGA
  40-46-45N
  073-52-48W
  11M



  KORD
  Chicago, Chicago-O'Hare International Airport, IL, United States 
  ORD
  41-59-00N
  087-55-00W
  200M



  KSFO
  San Francisco, San Francisco International Airport, CA, United States 
  SFO
  37-37-11N
  122-21-53W
  26M



RDF/Namespace Information
-------------------------

This document uses an experimental Namespace with the following URI:

  http://www.megginson.com/exp/ns/airports#

This namespace contains one RDF class, "Airport", and five RDF
properties, all of which are literals:

icao
  The four-letter ICAO code for the airport, such as "KLAX".

name
  The name and location of the airport.

iata
  The three-letter IATA code for the airport, such as "LAX", if known.

latitude
  The approximate latitude of the airport, if known.

longitude
  The approximate longitude of the airport, if known.

elevation
  The approximate elevation of the airport, if known.


Future Plans
------------

In real life, the last three properties would probably be specified
separately for each runway.  Perhaps some day I'll make this more
interesting, and add ATIS frequencies, better lat/lon information, ILS
approach information, etc.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Fri Jul 30 16:58:04 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:07 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org>

James Tauber wrote:

> In other words, rather than creating an InputSource using a FileReader, I
> used James Clark's "fileInputSource" method in XT to make a URL out of a
> file and create the InputSource from the URL string.

Yes, indeed.  You should never use a Reader of any sort when processing
XML (unless you have a non-standard Reader class that understands the
XML declaration).  Always use an InputSource so that the parser can
install its own bytes-to-chars converter based on the declaration.
 
> The culprit is FileReader. It is the one doing the strange "read UTF-8 as
> Windows code page".

Actually, it's doing what it's expected to: reading the native charset,
CP-1252.  (Unix JVMs use 8859-1 instead.)  It has no way of knowing that
*you* think the document charset is UTF-8.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From jmg at trivida.com  Fri Jul 30 17:26:17 1999
From: jmg at trivida.com (Jeff Greif)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
References: <14241.44833.857001.117796@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>

I'm not sure what the advantage of RDF is here, in comparison with using an
ordinary .xml file (changing rdf:about to a namespace declaration somewhere
and providing a DTD or XML Schema to specify an apt:Airport).  An airport is
a resource, so you might want a description of a bunch of them, but I'm
having trouble finding a context in which this is metadata, not data.  Is is
just that this is reference data perhaps useful to many xml-based apps, such
as weather reporting, flight schedules, a java applet that shows the
progress of a flight and its endpoints?  If so, would a table of cities and
zipcodes be similarly metadata?
Jeff
----- Original Message -----
From: David Megginson 
To: XML Developers' List 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 7:13 AM
Subject: ANN: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes


> I have placed a medium-sized RDF sample online at the following
> location:
>
>   http://www.megginson.com/samples/rdf/airports.rdf
>
> ...
> Here are sample records for the four airports I'll happen to be flying
> through next week:
>
> 
>   CYOW
>   Ottawa Int'L. Ont., Canada 
>   YOW
>   45-19N
>   075-40W
>   114M
> 
>
...


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jul 30 17:31:48 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: Use of '&' in element of XML Document
References: <3.0.5.32.19990728000648.00a827e0@nexus.polaris.net>
Message-ID: <000201bedaa1$7081d7e0$3a196520@brownell.org>

[ Really about the XML spec, not the use of '&' in documents ]

> To recap, the contentious paragraph on predefined entities at:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-predefined-ent
> says, in its entirety:
> 
> All XML processors must recognize these entities whether they are 
> declared or not. For interoperability, valid XML documents should 
> declare these entities, like any others, before using them. If the 
> entities in question are declared, they must be declared as 
> internal entities whose replacement text is the single character
> being escaped or a character reference to that character, as
> shown below. 

I also support the conclusion that this doesn't restrict the actual
declaration to the example "shown below" ... I just can't interpret
the English (above) that way.  The spec could be changed so it has to
be read that way, but I see no reason to do so.  The restriction is
written to be on the semantics of the replacement text, not that one
character reference syntax be precluded.

While some XML (or SGML) processor might demand the literal text
found in the example, I'd call such insistence a bug.

- Dave




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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 17:42:56 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>
References: <14241.44833.857001.117796@localhost.localdomain>
	<015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>
Message-ID: <14241.50839.125496.608533@localhost.localdomain>

Jeff Greif writes:

 > I'm not sure what the advantage of RDF is here, in comparison with
 > using an ordinary .xml file (changing rdf:about to a namespace
 > declaration somewhere and providing a DTD or XML Schema to specify
 > an apt:Airport).  An airport is a resource, so you might want a
 > description of a bunch of them, but I'm having trouble finding a
 > context in which this is metadata, not data.

Who said anything about metadata?

RDF is a general format for serializing entities and their
relationships -- sure it's useful for metadata, but it's main use (I
think) is as a more abstract layer on top of XML for exchanging
objects.

That said, the Airport sample isn't a particularly exciting RDF
application in itself: it will be interesting when I have time to
create other documents that point to it:

  
   
   1999-07-30T11:00:00
   2300ft, broken
   5500ft, overcast
   From 270 at 5kt, gusting
   20 miles
  

 > Is is just that this is reference data perhaps useful to many
 > xml-based apps, such as weather reporting, flight schedules, a java
 > applet that shows the progress of a flight and its endpoints?  If
 > so, would a table of cities and zipcodes be similarly metadata?

Or data, as you wish.  This is meant just to allow people to test
their RDF software on some real data (this is a developers' list,
after all), but lists like this in standard RDF formats would be very
useful.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From Satya.Rao at chase.com  Fri Jul 30 17:52:53 1999
From: Satya.Rao at chase.com (Satya.Rao@chase.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: ANN: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
Message-ID: <852567BE.00574E5A.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>

Can I more input on the use of Metadata here?

Thanks

Satya

---------------------- Forwarded by Satya Rao/CHASE on 08/30/99 11:52 AM
---------------------------


David Megginson  on 07/30/99 10:13:47 AM

Please respond to David Megginson 


To:   "XML Developers' List" 
cc:    (bcc: Satya Rao/CHASE)
Subject:  ANN: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes




I have placed a medium-sized RDF sample online at the following
location:

  http://www.megginson.com/samples/rdf/airports.rdf

This document is 811,388 bytes long, and contains entries for 2,963
international airports.  These are taken from
(not-entirely-consistently-formatted) text file available at

  http://www.primenet.com/~rfwatts/uteworld/airports.txt

and the information is sometimes pretty spotty.  Soon, I'd like to add
RDF versions of a few METAR (surface weather observation) files
pointing into this one, so that people can experiment with relations
among multiple RDF documents.


Samples
-------

Here are sample records for the four airports I'll happen to be flying
through next week:


  CYOW
  Ottawa Int'L. Ont., Canada 
  YOW
  45-19N
  075-40W
  114M



  KLGA
  New York, La Guardia Airport, NY, United States 
  LGA
  40-46-45N
  073-52-48W
  11M



  KORD
  Chicago, Chicago-O'Hare International Airport, IL, United States

  ORD
  41-59-00N
  087-55-00W
  200M



  KSFO
  San Francisco, San Francisco International Airport, CA, United
States 
  SFO
  37-37-11N
  122-21-53W
  26M



RDF/Namespace Information
-------------------------

This document uses an experimental Namespace with the following URI:

  http://www.megginson.com/exp/ns/airports#

This namespace contains one RDF class, "Airport", and five RDF
properties, all of which are literals:

icao
  The four-letter ICAO code for the airport, such as "KLAX".

name
  The name and location of the airport.

iata
  The three-letter IATA code for the airport, such as "LAX", if known.

latitude
  The approximate latitude of the airport, if known.

longitude
  The approximate longitude of the airport, if known.

elevation
  The approximate elevation of the airport, if known.


Future Plans
------------

In real life, the last three properties would probably be specified
separately for each runway.  Perhaps some day I'll make this more
interesting, and add ATIS frequencies, better lat/lon information, ILS
approach information, etc.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From Michael.Kay at icl.com  Fri Jul 30 18:19:57 1999
From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>

You should never use a Reader of any sort when 
> processing XML (unless you have a non-standard Reader class that
understands the
> XML declaration).

I'm not sure about that... There was some debate when SAX was being
designed. There's an escape clause for XML "provided by an external
transport protocol" which makes it legitimate to present the parser with a
stream of characters rather than bytes. I've certainly found this useful
when the XML is stored in a database rather than a file.

Mike Kay

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From Satya.Rao at chase.com  Fri Jul 30 18:37:31 1999
From: Satya.Rao at chase.com (Satya.Rao@chase.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
Message-ID: <852567BE.005B7605.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>

The first line in RDF specification says

"The Resource Description Framework (RDF) is a foundation for processing
metadata"

I thought this is the major use of the RDF. For serializing the entities can't
we use XML?

Thanks
---------------------- Forwarded by Satya Rao/CHASE on 08/30/99 12:35 PM
---------------------------


David Megginson  on 07/30/99 11:44:00 AM

Please respond to David Megginson 


To:   xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
cc:    (bcc: Satya Rao/CHASE)
Subject:  Re: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes




Jeff Greif writes:

 > I'm not sure what the advantage of RDF is here, in comparison with
 > using an ordinary .xml file (changing rdf:about to a namespace
 > declaration somewhere and providing a DTD or XML Schema to specify
 > an apt:Airport).  An airport is a resource, so you might want a
 > description of a bunch of them, but I'm having trouble finding a
 > context in which this is metadata, not data.

Who said anything about metadata?

RDF is a general format for serializing entities and their
relationships -- sure it's useful for metadata, but it's main use (I
think) is as a more abstract layer on top of XML for exchanging
objects.

That said, the Airport sample isn't a particularly exciting RDF
application in itself: it will be interesting when I have time to
create other documents that point to it:

  
   
   1999-07-30T11:00:00
   2300ft, broken
   5500ft, overcast
   From 270 at 5kt, gusting
   20 miles
  

 > Is is just that this is reference data perhaps useful to many
 > xml-based apps, such as weather reporting, flight schedules, a java
 > applet that shows the progress of a flight and its endpoints?  If
 > so, would a table of cities and zipcodes be similarly metadata?

Or data, as you wish.  This is meant just to allow people to test
their RDF software on some real data (this is a developers' list,
after all), but lists like this in standard RDF formats would be very
useful.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Fri Jul 30 18:44:38 1999
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: Expressing XLink concepts in XML Schema
Message-ID: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE6D@THOR>

It seems to me that there would be a benefit of being able to express XLink
concepts in a much higher level in XML Schema.  Basically, the XLink
approach (and a totally appropriate one) is to communicate its concepts
through the few available means in XML with DTDs.  But it would seem that we
could have a more elegant way to express this in XML Schema, that could be
rendered identically in a generated DTD or present the same information when
a document is accessed through a Schema-based DOM parser.

This approach may be limited to cases where the specific XLink attributes
are fixed for an element.  It may not readily allow you to change within the
document the nature of a link, for example.

Maybe something like


	
		
	


Has anyone been doing anything with expressing XLink in Schema?  Any other
thoughts or gaping holes in my logic?

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jul 30 19:11:59 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <009e01bedaaf$7dbe2d60$3a196520@brownell.org>

----- Original Message -----
From: John Cowan 
To: XML Dev 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 7:59 AM
Subject: Re: encoding problem fixed


> James Tauber wrote:
>
> > In other words, rather than creating an InputSource using a FileReader,
I
> > used James Clark's "fileInputSource" method in XT to make a URL out of a
> > file and create the InputSource from the URL string.
>
> Yes, indeed.  You should never use a Reader of any sort when processing
                           ^^^^^ wrong !!!
> XML (unless you have a non-standard Reader class that understands the
> XML declaration).  Always use an InputSource so that the parser can
> install its own bytes-to-chars converter based on the declaration.

Actually, that's not correct either.  My general advice is to pass a
URI to the parser -- which is required to do the correct thing! -- and
in those rare cases that can't be done:

    * If the data is externally typed according to character set,
      you MUST use some Reader ... e.g. given a MIME type of
      "application/xml;charset=Big5", then use a reader set
      up to use the "Big5" encoding (a Chinese encoding).  There
      isn't much choice of classes; InputStreamReader, or a custom
      reader that understands that encoding.

    * If the data is NOT externally typed, then you MUST rely on
      the XML parser's autodetection ... pass an InputStream.

Remember, with external typing (e.g. MIME objects) the MIME type is
authoritative.  And XML/text declarations are optional; for the top
level document, the "encoding=..." is also optional.  Autodetection
will not work in all cases ... which is why the notion of "always
use an InputStream" is incorrect.

Those using Sun's parser will notice a "Resolver" class that has a
method accepting a MIME type, which is interpreted according to the
relevant RFC, and another method (also static) taking a "File" which
ignores the JVM's normal understanding of file encodings to do a
better thing in that case also. (It autodetects -- better than any
system default in that case!)


> > The culprit is FileReader. It is the one doing the strange "read UTF-8
as
> > Windows code page".
>
> Actually, it's doing what it's expected to: reading the native charset,
> CP-1252.  (Unix JVMs use 8859-1 instead.)

Those are actually system-specific defaults ... many localized versions
of those environments work differently.  For example UNIX JVMs may well
use the "EUC-JP" coding in Japan, or MS-Windows the "Shift_JIS".


>     It has no way of knowing that
> *you* think the document charset is UTF-8.

The InputStreamReader class can be told such stuff, and you can create
one from a FileInputStream.

Another fix, for JDK 1.2 conformant JVMs, is to construct the URI for
the relevant file and construct the InputSource like this:

    new InputSource (new File (path).toURL ().toString ())

In fact, my own basic guidance is never to pass any sort of I/O stream
(InputStream -or- Reader!) to the parser; let the parser work from the
URI, if at all possible.  It's normally quite possible, and it's a lot
less likely to handle the encodings wrong than application code!!

- Dave





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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jul 30 19:18:28 1999
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>
Message-ID: <00b401bedab0$5982dbc0$3a196520@brownell.org>


----- Original Message -----
From: Kay Michael 
To: XML Dev 
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 9:21 AM
Subject: RE: encoding problem fixed


> > You should never use a Reader of any sort when
> > processing XML (unless you have a non-standard Reader class that
> > understands the XML declaration).
>
> I'm not sure about that... There was some debate when SAX was being
> designed. There's an escape clause for XML "provided by an external
> transport protocol" which makes it legitimate to present the parser with a
> stream of characters rather than bytes. I've certainly found this useful
> when the XML is stored in a database rather than a file.

Right.  The general case is data that's not got a URI, or for which
the encoding is recorded externally rather than internally (which
is perfectly legal).

As I noted elsewhere, a better guideline is always to pass a URI to
the InputSource, and only use I/O streams (Reader or InputStream)
with exquisite care.  Reader in the case of data whose encoding is
externally tagged (e.g. MIME entities or database contents); and if
the encoding isn't externally recorded, _only then_ use InputStream.

- Dave



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 19:45:57 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <852567BE.005B7605.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
References: <852567BE.005B7605.00@3CMC04SMTP01.chase.com>
Message-ID: <14241.57559.415749.619488@localhost.localdomain>

Satya.Rao@chase.com writes:

 > The first line in RDF specification says
 > 
 > "The Resource Description Framework (RDF) is a foundation for processing
 > metadata"
 > 
 > I thought this is the major use of the RDF. For serializing the
 > entities can't we use XML?

RDF is a layer of abstraction that can be used on top of XML to
provide a better view of serialized objects.  

If lots of applications need to process serialized objects, it doesn't
make sense to force them all to do fairly low-level XML handling:
applications for data exchange will usually care about entities
(objects) and their attributes and relationships (properties), not
about elements, attributes, and character data.

By way of illustration, here are the major layers involved in one
particular (imaginary) process:

1. UTF-8 encoding - specifies the actual character encoding used in a
         file.
2. Unicode - specifies the abstract character points available,
         without requiring specific knowledge of the character
         encoding used.
3. XML - specifies a serialized version of a tree with typed nodes,
         without requiring specific knowledge of the characters used.
4. RDF - specifies the interpretation of the tree as a series of
         entities with attributes and relationships, without requiring 
         specific knowledge of the elements and attributes used.
5. Application - processes the entities in the abstract, and builds a
         domain-specific object tree.
6. Database - stores the object tree in SQL tables.

If you make the jump straight from #3 to #6 (for example), you'll have 
to write and maintain a lot of unnecessary code.


All the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Fri Jul 30 19:54:53 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org> <009e01bedaaf$7dbe2d60$3a196520@brownell.org>
Message-ID: <37A1E761.B9CB293B@locke.ccil.org>

David Brownell wrote:

> Actually, that's not correct either.  My general advice is to pass a
> URI to the parser -- which is required to do the correct thing! -- and
> in those rare cases that can't be done:
> 
>     * If the data is externally typed according to character set,
>       you MUST use some Reader ... e.g. given a MIME type of
>       "application/xml;charset=Big5", then use a reader set
>       up to use the "Big5" encoding (a Chinese encoding).  There
>       isn't much choice of classes; InputStreamReader, or a custom
>       reader that understands that encoding.
> 
>     * If the data is NOT externally typed, then you MUST rely on
>       the XML parser's autodetection ... pass an InputStream.

This is all quite sound, and I was wrong to overlook the case of
external charset information.
 
> > Actually, it's doing what it's expected to: reading the native charset,
> > CP-1252.  (Unix JVMs use 8859-1 instead.)
> 
> Those are actually system-specific defaults ... many localized versions
> of those environments work differently.  For example UNIX JVMs may well
> use the "EUC-JP" coding in Japan, or MS-Windows the "Shift_JIS".

Reasonable.
 
> In fact, my own basic guidance is never to pass any sort of I/O stream
> (InputStream -or- Reader!) to the parser; let the parser work from the
> URI, if at all possible.  It's normally quite possible, and it's a lot
> less likely to handle the encodings wrong than application code!!

This leads to an interesting question: what do various XML parsers
do when fetching http: URIs that produce explicit charset declarations?
Someone should try Aelfred, etc. and see if the header-level charset
declaration is respected, overriding the internal encoding declaration.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Fri Jul 30 19:57:41 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:08 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <00b401bedab0$5982dbc0$3a196520@brownell.org>
Message-ID: <37A1E812.C8B75B4B@locke.ccil.org>

David Brownell wrote:

> As I noted elsewhere, a better guideline is always to pass a URI to
> the InputSource, and only use I/O streams (Reader or InputStream)
> with exquisite care.  Reader in the case of data whose encoding is
> externally tagged (e.g. MIME entities or database contents); and if
> the encoding isn't externally recorded, _only then_ use InputStream.

Note that SAX lets you pass an InputStream and a media type together;
this is useful if you know the type and don't have an URI.  This may
be more efficient than instantiating your own InputStreamReader,
depending on the parser.

-- 
	John Cowan	http://www.ccil.org/~cowan	cowan@ccil.org
Schlingt dreifach einen Kreis um dies! / Schliesst euer Aug vor heiliger Schau,
Denn er genoss vom Honig-Tau / Und trank die Milch vom Paradies.
			-- Coleridge / Politzer

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 20:08:38 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>
References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170F022@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14241.59982.535544.545789@localhost.localdomain>

Kay Michael writes:

 > I'm not sure about that... There was some debate when SAX was being
 > designed. There's an escape clause for XML "provided by an external
 > transport protocol" which makes it legitimate to present the parser with a
 > stream of characters rather than bytes. I've certainly found this useful
 > when the XML is stored in a database rather than a file.

Absolutely correct -- if you *know* the encoding already (or if the
characters are coming from a source where encoding is not an issue),
use a Reader; if you don't know the encoding already, use an
InputStream.  That's why SAX allows either.


All the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 20:11:31 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
In-Reply-To: <37A1E761.B9CB293B@locke.ccil.org>
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
	<37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org>
	<009e01bedaaf$7dbe2d60$3a196520@brownell.org>
	<37A1E761.B9CB293B@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <14241.60189.585898.770113@localhost.localdomain>

John Cowan writes:

 > This leads to an interesting question: what do various XML parsers
 > do when fetching http: URIs that produce explicit charset declarations?
 > Someone should try Aelfred, etc. and see if the header-level charset
 > declaration is respected, overriding the internal encoding declaration.

I'm pretty sure that AElfred does take that information from the URL
and URLConnection classes.


All the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From vance at textwise.com  Fri Jul 30 21:25:41 1999
From: vance at textwise.com (Vance Christiaanse)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: Preserving white space and entity references in DataChannel XJP
References: 
Message-ID: <37A1FAB7.BF6BA266@textwise.com>

Step 1:
> > Erik James Freed wrote:
> >
> > I am experiencing some strange behavior with the datachannel XML
> > parser package (the most recent one).
> > In my reading of the DOM spec, this is not appropriate behavior, but
> > perhaps I am missing something.
> >
> > The behavior is that when I do a 'setPreserveWhiteSpace(true)' before
> > parsing a document, and the document
> > contains strings with entity references such as:
> >
> >      < fubar > 
> >
> > when I then do a getText() on element1, what is returned is a
> > java.lang.String that contains a null (char 0) for each entity
> > reference.
> >
> > These nulls of course confound the rest of the code I am writing. In
> > side the DOM tree the entity reference objects are happily holding the
> > appropriate text representation  i.e. '<' and  '>'.
> >
> > Turning off white space preservation makes the getText() place
> > appropriate decoded entity references in the resulting string.
> >
> > Bug or feature?

Step 2:
I wrote:
> I don't see a setPreserveWhiteSpace(...) method or preserveWhiteSpace
> class or instance variable in the DOM spec and I don't see getText() or
> a text variable either. The answer to "bug or feature" would be up to
> the
> 
> > datachannel XML parser package

Step 3:
Eric wrote
> Vance,
> 
> Yes indeed this is not a pure DOM/XML issue, however the DC extension does
> purport to
> adhere to standard XML concepts.
> 
> The following is from the datachannel documentation on the
> PreserveWhiteSpace parameter:
> 
>         "As per the XML Language Specification, this specifies the white space
> handling for the        application; that is, the default white space handling to
> apply when      xml:space="default". If preserveWhiteSpace is true, all white
> space will be preserved         regardless of the setting of any xml:space
> attributes in the document. The white space     will be preserved by additional
> text nodes being present in the tree. If        preserveWhiteSpace is false, then
> the values of the xml:space attribute specified in      the document will
> determine whether white space is preserved or not. "
> 
> So with that clarification is this a bug or a feature?

Step 4:
I don't know, unfortunately. I've been studying the DOM and I just
wanted to clarify its boundaries. Hopefully someone familiar with the
DataChannel XML parser package will answer!

Vance

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From redhat at admin.big-orange.net  Fri Jul 30 21:47:49 1999
From: redhat at admin.big-orange.net (Redhat)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: xml - assemblying entities
In-Reply-To: <000101bed94d$3a11b220$140010ac@multimedia>
References: <000101bed94d$3a11b220$140010ac@multimedia>
Message-ID: <37c50137.36000798@mail.rphh.org>

In the list , you wrote:

Heya Kay Campbell,

>I am a newcomer to this XML technology - weeks old - and I am trying to find some
>info on the web that will help me assemble a set of external entities depending on
>some conditions.  Here is what I am trying to accomplish.  

	What to want is version control? Hmmz...

blaze your trail
--
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redhat@admin.big-orange.net

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From martind at netfolder.com  Fri Jul 30 21:53:20 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <14241.57559.415749.619488@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

Hi David,

In fact, originally RDF was designed to provide metadata about resources.
However, we can say that its rich definition constructs make it a perfect
candidate to data exchange. Or said differently, a way to exchange data base
data. A RDF element or description could be easily associated to a record.

We can then say that RDF provided some interesting side effects  not
necessarily originally intended :-).

In your example you used URLs and more particularly http based URLs, I am
not so sure it is the right kind of URI to uniquely identify a record or
more particularly to uniquely identify a record in an exchange format
between databases. It would be better to employ a location independent or
more simply a protocol agnostic URI for the element's identification.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
David Megginson
Sent: Friday, July 30, 1999 1:47 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes


Satya.Rao@chase.com writes:

 > The first line in RDF specification says
 >
 > "The Resource Description Framework (RDF) is a foundation for processing
 > metadata"
 >
 > I thought this is the major use of the RDF. For serializing the
 > entities can't we use XML?

RDF is a layer of abstraction that can be used on top of XML to
provide a better view of serialized objects.

If lots of applications need to process serialized objects, it doesn't
make sense to force them all to do fairly low-level XML handling:
applications for data exchange will usually care about entities
(objects) and their attributes and relationships (properties), not
about elements, attributes, and character data.

By way of illustration, here are the major layers involved in one
particular (imaginary) process:

1. UTF-8 encoding - specifies the actual character encoding used in a
         file.
2. Unicode - specifies the abstract character points available,
         without requiring specific knowledge of the character
         encoding used.
3. XML - specifies a serialized version of a tree with typed nodes,
         without requiring specific knowledge of the characters used.
4. RDF - specifies the interpretation of the tree as a series of
         entities with attributes and relationships, without requiring
         specific knowledge of the elements and attributes used.
5. Application - processes the entities in the abstract, and builds a
         domain-specific object tree.
6. Database - stores the object tree in SQL tables.

If you make the jump straight from #3 to #6 (for example), you'll have
to write and maintain a lot of unnecessary code.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jul 30 22:41:04 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:09 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <14241.57559.415749.619488@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: <14242.3633.693126.745116@localhost.localdomain>

Didier PH Martin writes:

 > In your example you used URLs and more particularly http based URLs, I am
 > not so sure it is the right kind of URI to uniquely identify a record or
 > more particularly to uniquely identify a record in an exchange format
 > between databases. It would be better to employ a location independent or
 > more simply a protocol agnostic URI for the element's identification.

Agreed -- I'm still waiting for URN Namespaces, though.


Thanks, and all the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From paul at qub.com  Sat Jul 31 03:44:54 1999
From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: XML specs in XML.
Message-ID: <006001bedaf6$fe18ca00$32d5d6cf@g0f2n0>


Hello.

My apologies it it's FAQ.

It there any way to get XML specifications in 
form of XML? I'm mostly interested in XSL WD.

Many thanks.

Rgds.Paul.


 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
       Email: paul@qub.com  http://www.pault.com
  PerlApplicationServer | XMLTube | Perl/JavaConnector
 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=




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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Sat Jul 31 07:50:22 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
References: <005701beda2d$90e590e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <37A1BDEE.1993C84C@locke.ccil.org> <009e01bedaaf$7dbe2d60$3a196520@brownell.org>
Message-ID: <00ad01bedb0b$8a08ac60$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

> Actually, that's not correct either.  My general advice is to pass a
> URI to the parser -- which is required to do the correct thing!
[..]
> In fact, my own basic guidance is never to pass any sort of I/O stream
> (InputStream -or- Reader!) to the parser; let the parser work from the
> URI, if at all possible.  It's normally quite possible, and it's a lot
> less likely to handle the encodings wrong than application code!!

Hence James Clark's solution (make a URI out of the filename), which I now
use. There's a moral here and those of you who know James Clark probably
learnt it a long time ago :-)

James Tauber




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From jamesr at steptwo.com.au  Sat Jul 31 08:46:28 1999
From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <14241.50839.125496.608533@localhost.localdomain>
References: <015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>
 <14241.44833.857001.117796@localhost.localdomain>
 <015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.19990731164421.02c72210@203.41.126.17>

At 01:44 31/07/1999 , David Megginson wrote:

>Jeff Greif writes:
>
>  > I'm not sure what the advantage of RDF is here, in comparison with
>  > using an ordinary .xml file (changing rdf:about to a namespace
>  > declaration somewhere and providing a DTD or XML Schema to specify
>  > an apt:Airport).  An airport is a resource, so you might want a
>  > description of a bunch of them, but I'm having trouble finding a
>  > context in which this is metadata, not data.
>
>Who said anything about metadata?
>
>RDF is a general format for serializing entities and their
>relationships -- sure it's useful for metadata, but it's main use (I
>think) is as a more abstract layer on top of XML for exchanging
>objects.

Wouldn't a validatable format with a DTD
be more useful for storing data?

ie. plain vanilla XML?

Otherwise, aren't we advocating abandoning XML for a
another format? One that loses the ability to be
verified, except with the use of custom-written software.

In other words, if RDF is intended for storage of data,
what's XML for?

Hmmm.

J


-------------------------
James Robertson
Step Two Designs Pty Ltd
SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy
http://www.steptwo.com.au/
jamesr@steptwo.com.au

"Beyond the Idea"
  ACN 081 019 623

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Sat Jul 31 09:03:59 1999
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: encoding problem fixed
In-Reply-To: <00ad01bedb0b$8a08ac60$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> from "James Tauber" at Jul 31, 99 12:15:41 pm
Message-ID: <199907310741.DAA14128@locke.ccil.org>

James Tauber scripsit:

> Hence James Clark's solution (make a URI out of the filename), which I now
> use. There's a moral here and those of you who know James Clark probably
> learnt it a long time ago :-)

I sure did.  "If you think James Clark is wrong (about some factual
point), there's something you are overlooking."

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Sat Jul 31 12:14:38 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
References: 
Message-ID: <010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

> In your example you used URLs and more particularly http based URLs, I am
> not so sure it is the right kind of URI to uniquely identify a record or
> more particularly to uniquely identify a record in an exchange format
> between databases. It would be better to employ a location independent or
> more simply a protocol agnostic URI for the element's identification.

Or use an "hname"-style protocol as proposed independently by Paul Prescod,
myself and others.

James


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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Sat Jul 31 12:20:13 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: Expressing XLink concepts in XML Schema
References: <61DAD58E8F4ED211AC8400A0C9B468731AAE6D@THOR>
Message-ID: <012401bedb3d$ff443260$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

----- Original Message -----
From: Arnold, Curt 
> It seems to me that there would be a benefit of being able to express
XLink
> concepts in a much higher level in XML Schema.

Actually, there seems to be a lot of conceptual overlap between XLink and
the RDF model/syntax.
Also between XML Schemas and RDF Schemas.

James
--
James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com
Maintainer of : www.xmlinfo.com,  www.xmlsoftware.com and www.schema.net




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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jul 31 12:47:44 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.19990731164421.02c72210@203.41.126.17>
References: <015101beda9f$f89879b0$a24630d1@trivida.com>
	<14241.44833.857001.117796@localhost.localdomain>
	<14241.50839.125496.608533@localhost.localdomain>
	<4.2.0.58.19990731164421.02c72210@203.41.126.17>
Message-ID: <14242.53755.573242.502089@localhost.localdomain>

James Robertson writes:

 > Wouldn't a validatable format with a DTD
 > be more useful for storing data?
 > 
 > ie. plain vanilla XML?

Why not just ASCII?

 > Otherwise, aren't we advocating abandoning XML for a
 > another format? One that loses the ability to be
 > verified, except with the use of custom-written software.

I could write a DTD for my airport example if I wanted, but I see
little value; instead, I'd probably use the W3C's proposed RDF-schema
language, since it works at the right semantic level.

Besides, while DTDs are useful, they allow validation of only a tiny
subset of business rules: as I mentioned in a recent discussion within
the W3C, a DTD can ensure that HTML 
       doesn't appear within 
      ,
but it cannot ensure that the text in it is actually a descriptive
section title.

 > In other words, if RDF is intended for storage of data,
 > what's XML for?

If XML is intended for the representation of documents, what's ASCII
for?

Good application design (like good system design) requires a layered
approach:

- if a lot of people need to extract a stream of characters from many
  different byte encodings, you invent a standard (like Unicode) so
  that they can all refer to a common set of characters in the
  abstract;

- if a lot of people need to extract a tree structure from a
  stream of characters, you invent a standard (like SGML or XML) so
  that they can all use standard software tools rather than rolling
  their own;

- if a lot of people need to relabel the tree nodes with
  universally-identifiable and unique names, you invent a standard
  (like Namespaces in XML or Architectural Forms) so that they can all
  use standard software tools rather than rolling their own;

- if a lot of people need to extract a set of objects from the tree,
  you invent a standard (like RDF or XMI) so that they can all use
  standard software tools rather than rolling their own.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jul 31 12:49:56 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
References: 
	<010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: <14242.54522.852750.548611@localhost.localdomain>

James Tauber writes:

 > > In your example you used URLs and more particularly http based URLs, I am
 > > not so sure it is the right kind of URI to uniquely identify a record or
 > > more particularly to uniquely identify a record in an exchange format
 > > between databases. It would be better to employ a location independent or
 > > more simply a protocol agnostic URI for the element's identification.
 > 
 > Or use an "hname"-style protocol as proposed independently by Paul Prescod,
 > myself and others.

It's not guaranteed unique until the scheme is approved.

I remember that Paul was working on getting a URN scheme through -- is
it in a state that I could use it for constructing the identifiers
now?


Thanks, and all the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From jtauber at jtauber.com  Sat Jul 31 13:15:43 1999
From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
References: <010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> <14242.54522.852750.548611@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <021001bedb45$c771c160$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>

> It's not guaranteed unique until the scheme is approved.

But under my scheme, what following "hname" is in http URL scheme syntax
with the assumption that you would use exactly the same thing after the
colon as you would if the scheme was http.

Eg

hname://www.megginson.com/exp/id/airports/KLGA

I agree that it isn't 100% guaranteed to be unique as someone else could
come along and define the semantics of what follows "hname" as meaning that
someone could legitimately use the above and not be owner of megginson.com
but I think that is almost impossible.

James


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 31 15:59:25 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: Expressing XLink concepts in XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <012401bedb3d$ff443260$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Hi James,

James said:
Actually, there seems to be a lot of conceptual overlap between XLink and
the RDF model/syntax.

Didier says:
This is because some are stretching too much the utility of RDF. At its
origin, RDF has been designed as a metadata encoding tool. This is why you
have the following construct

... put here a set of properties/values like for instance the Dublin core or
AGLS record...


So, on one hand you have the resource located somewhere and on the other
hand, metadata providing more info about the resource.

Xlink, is designed to link resources thus, for instance, to establish a link
between a document fragment and an other document fragment. We have here, in
fact, resource linkage.

So, if we do not do like kids that received a do-it-yourself kit for
Christmas and start a quest for nails for our brand new hammer, we can use
the tool for what they where intended to - which is:
a) rdf for metadata - to add information to existing resources
b) xlink for resource linkage - to link resources

This said, we'll have more and more similarities because:
a) all these languages are XML based,
b) we start to see now some common sub languages used across different tools
like for instance XPath and XPointer (re-united) and the string based
pointer language used in other XML based languages.

James said:
Also between XML Schemas and RDF Schemas.

Didier says:
Yes and this is good news because having a single schema language is more
intelligent than having to still live in the Babel tower.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 31 16:09:32 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:10 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Hi James,

James said:
Or use an "hname"-style protocol as proposed independently by Paul Prescod,
myself and others.

Didier says:
And this notation is location independent and protocol agnostic. Also, has
been the result of this community work. http based name space reference make
sense only if it points to a resource. http is a resource access protocol,
hname is a name reference. it is therefore more logical to use hname than
http. Otherwise why not use postal code instead :-))). So James, I too use
hname and still support you, Paul and others to do so. Thanks James for your
good common sense.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com


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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jul 31 16:18:35 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: 
References: <010e01bedb3d$4756a020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
	
Message-ID: <14243.1471.325886.868025@localhost.localdomain>

Didier PH Martin writes:

 > Didier says:
 > And this notation is location independent and protocol agnostic. Also, has
 > been the result of this community work. http based name space reference make
 > sense only if it points to a resource. http is a resource access protocol,
 > hname is a name reference. it is therefore more logical to use hname than
 > http. Otherwise why not use postal code instead :-))). So James, I too use
 > hname and still support you, Paul and others to do so. Thanks James for your
 > good common sense.

It wouldn't hurt, I guess, to use hname for experimental pieces like
airports.rdf, but I cannot in good conscience recommend it to my
customers for real implementations until it gets IETF sanction;
otherwise, it's not guaranteed unique (other parties might use it for
other purposes).


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 31 16:21:49 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <14242.53755.573242.502089@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

Hi David,

After reading your comments it appeared to me that tacitly you have this
model (please correct me if this is wrong, I just guessed it from trying to
understand your position)

a) XML DTD based documents are more documents in the classical sense like
for instance a report, a book, etc...
b) RDF based document are more for data exchange and more particularly for
data base data exchange.

The former allows you to add meta-information in your documents by adding
meaningful tags in your text. The latter, because of a more formal schema
definition, and also because rdf has to the notion of record (implicitly),
it is more suited to data base exchange which, by the way, is also record
based and these records are defined by a formal schema.

Is this what you have in mind?

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
David Megginson
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 1999 6:50 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes


James Robertson writes:

 > Wouldn't a validatable format with a DTD
 > be more useful for storing data?
 >
 > ie. plain vanilla XML?

Why not just ASCII?

 > Otherwise, aren't we advocating abandoning XML for a
 > another format? One that loses the ability to be
 > verified, except with the use of custom-written software.

I could write a DTD for my airport example if I wanted, but I see
little value; instead, I'd probably use the W3C's proposed RDF-schema
language, since it works at the right semantic level.

Besides, while DTDs are useful, they allow validation of only a tiny
subset of business rules: as I mentioned in a recent discussion within
the W3C, a DTD can ensure that HTML 
       doesn't appear within 
      ,
but it cannot ensure that the text in it is actually a descriptive
section title.

 > In other words, if RDF is intended for storage of data,
 > what's XML for?

If XML is intended for the representation of documents, what's ASCII
for?

Good application design (like good system design) requires a layered
approach:

- if a lot of people need to extract a stream of characters from many
  different byte encodings, you invent a standard (like Unicode) so
  that they can all refer to a common set of characters in the
  abstract;

- if a lot of people need to extract a tree structure from a
  stream of characters, you invent a standard (like SGML or XML) so
  that they can all use standard software tools rather than rolling
  their own;

- if a lot of people need to relabel the tree nodes with
  universally-identifiable and unique names, you invent a standard
  (like Namespaces in XML or Architectural Forms) so that they can all
  use standard software tools rather than rolling their own;

- if a lot of people need to extract a set of objects from the tree,
  you invent a standard (like RDF or XMI) so that they can all use
  standard software tools rather than rolling their own.


All the best,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 31 16:31:24 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: RDF Sample, ICAO Airport Codes
In-Reply-To: <021001bedb45$c771c160$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au>
Message-ID: 

Hi James,

-
James said:
But under my scheme, what following "hname" is in http URL scheme syntax
with the assumption that you would use exactly the same thing after the
colon as you would if the scheme was http.

Eg

hname://www.megginson.com/exp/id/airports/KLGA

I agree that it isn't 100% guaranteed to be unique as someone else could
come along and define the semantics of what follows "hname" as meaning that
someone could legitimately use the above and not be owner of megginson.com
but I think that is almost impossible.

Didier says:
And the advantage is that hname is not identified to a resource access
protocol like http. when we use http, and because most of us using the web
to access resource do use http protocol when we read a resource, http is
associated already to a certain meaning. It implicitly carries the meaning
of doing a "GET" this resource. "hname" has the advantage of not being
tagged with such meaning, even if the rest of the url is the same. At least
we do not say that we'll use the http protocol to "GET" a resource. Simple
question of meaning and in this case, http carries some meaning. So, what
James is doing is that he just tell the reader that this url is not a
resource transport protocol but something else. This way, James do not do
semantic overload on a single term. Otherwise I would call everything in my
sight "car". Economical way to call everything (a single word) but I am not
so sure I could be understood.

So even if a urn is not necessarily used for name space reference, at least
if it do not refer to a url with a different meaning. In fact, I think we
should send this comments to W3C which by the way seems also to use http
protocol like someone using a single word to call everything. I am surprised
that nobody within WG made comments on this. the only rational thing I would
see about this is that sooner or later the intention is that a document will
be stored at the location referred by the http url. In this case, it makes a
lot of sense, otherwise, its like the guy using a single word "car" to name
everything.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com


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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jul 31 16:39:09 1999
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: RDF **vs** XML???
In-Reply-To: 
References: <14242.53755.573242.502089@localhost.localdomain>
	
Message-ID: <14243.2411.694437.258716@localhost.localdomain>

Didier PH Martin writes:

 > After reading your comments it appeared to me that tacitly you have
 > this model (please correct me if this is wrong, I just guessed it
 > from trying to understand your position)
 > 
 > a) XML DTD based documents are more documents in the classical sense like
 > for instance a report, a book, etc...
 > b) RDF based document are more for data exchange and more particularly for
 > data base data exchange.

No, this is wrong -- my model is that RDF (or something similar, like
XMI) is a layer of abstraction *above* XML, just as an object layer
can be an abstraction above a set of database tables.  I can imagine
similar layers of abstraction that would be useful for more prosaic
(in the literal sense) documents, but both layers have XML in common
underneath.

Saying that RDF is an alternative to XML is like saying that HTTP is
an alternative to IP.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk  Sat Jul 31 17:48:06 1999
From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: Expressing XLink concepts in XML Schema
In-Reply-To: 
Message-ID: 



On Sat, 31 Jul 1999, Didier PH Martin wrote:
> This is because some are stretching too much the utility of RDF. At its
> origin, RDF has been designed as a metadata encoding tool. 

And XML was designed for structured document interchange, but that's not
stopped people having all sorts of unanticipated fun with it...
(and can anyone remember what the Internet itself was originally for? ;-)

It may well be that RDF is in some quarters being stretched beyond
current capabilities. It certainly hasn't suffered the dangerous hype
currently afflicting XML, and I personally hope it never does. Appeals
to origins don't help much here: is better to argue on technical
capabilities. There are certainly many things now missing from RDF which
hinder our use of it for Web database-oriented applications.
Data aggregation for example turns out to be difficult (even though
URI-based graphs provide a solid foundation...) given the modest
constraint mechanisms in the proposed Schema 1.0 system. Because we have
no notion of cardinality/occurance in 1.0, aggregating overlapping data
is hard without having hard-coded additional knowledge of the
vocabualries/applicatiosn concerned. This has nothing to do with the
origins of RDF, of XML, or of the Internet. It's just an interesting
fact about what's currently feasible given the specs on the table.


> a) rdf for metadata - to add information to existing resources
> b) xlink for resource linkage - to link resources
> 
> This said, we'll have more and more similarities because:
> a) all these languages are XML based,
> b) we start to see now some common sub languages used across different tools

No - the similarity it because RDF describes resources in terms of their
relationships with other resources (conceptual and concrete) as well as
ascribing simpler flat attributes to those resources. Xlink allows for
links to be expressed between document-like resources, and for those
knowledge of those relationships to be stored outside the resources
concerned. These are clearly overlapping pieces of the same larger
puzzle. For my money the XArc proposal goes some way towards addressing
potential overlaps here.

> like for instance XPath and XPointer (re-united) and the string based
> pointer language used in other XML based languages.
> 
> James said:
> Also between XML Schemas and RDF Schemas.
> 
> Didier says:
> Yes and this is good news because having a single schema language is more
> intelligent than having to still live in the Babel tower.

I'd rather have a single data model and a family of schema languages
built to a common approach...

Dan




--
Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk                  
Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/
University of Bristol,  Bristol BS8 1TN, UK.   phone:+44(0)117-9287096


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jul 31 23:45:14 1999
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:14:11 2004
Subject: RDF **vs** XML???
In-Reply-To: <14243.2411.694437.258716@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: 

Hi David,

Didier PH Martin writes:

 > After reading your comments it appeared to me that tacitly you have
 > this model (please correct me if this is wrong, I just guessed it
 > from trying to understand your position)
 >
 > a) XML DTD based documents are more documents in the classical sense like
 > for instance a report, a book, etc...
 > b) RDF based document are more for data exchange and more particularly
for
 > data base data exchange.

David said:
No, this is wrong -- my model is that RDF (or something similar, like
XMI) is a layer of abstraction *above* XML, just as an object layer
can be an abstraction above a set of database tables.  I can imagine
similar layers of abstraction that would be useful for more prosaic
(in the literal sense) documents, but both layers have XML in common
underneath.

Saying that RDF is an alternative to XML is like saying that HTTP is
an alternative to IP.

Didier says:
OK, I badly expressed myself. Let's state it differently.
a) Wasn't XML with the purpose of allow you to create domain languages?
d) Was RDF originally intended for meta data?

Was then use a meta data domain language to encode data base records? You
could have encoded it with your own domain language. In fact, what is useful
about rdf is not its elements but more its schema part. When XML will have a
schema language as good as the rdf schema language or if both are united
then I guess there is no need to use rdf.

But the original intent of rdf is to add meta data information about
resources. This is why you have such construct:



The elements intentionally have the "description about" keywords.

regards
Didier PH Martin
mailto:martind@netfolder.com
http://www.netfolder.com


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