From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 1 00:11:01 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3.0.32.19990531124552.01284c40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3752FA19.8AD53D9B@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > No, that's not a "formal logic" change, that's a huge basic semantic > change. If the IETF had wanted to forbid people using these for > other purposes, they should say so. Okay, fine: "A Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) is a compact string of characters for identifying an abstract or physical resource." Normatively referenced RFC 2396: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2396.html You can also read the section that begins "URI are characterized by the following definitions." Paul's Fudamantal Law of URIs (PFLU): If a string does not identify a resource then it not a URI. But we could also just use our common sense here. If someone write a spec that normatively references the XML specification they cannot later say: "Oh, we didn't mean for you to interpret the term 'element' as XML does. In our system, elements are text substitution macros and Note that one of the co-editors > of the URI RFC is one T. Berners-Lee, who among other things signed > off on the namespace spec. That doesn't change the content of either spec. Anyhow, the namespaces spec. is logically complete (AFAIK): why shouldn't he sign off on it? That doesn't mean that we can now use the namespaces spec. as an excuse to defy the URI spec. > Uh, namespace URIs do not designate resources. The namespace spec > is crystal-clear on this. They serve as names, that's all. "An XML namespace is a collection of names, identified by a URI reference." A resource is something identifiable by a URI. Therefore a reasoanble interpretation is that an XML namespace is a resource (an abstract resource) designated by its URI. I'm prepared to write this off to ambiguous wording -- you meant "identified for the purposes of this specification but not for the more general purposes of the World Wide Web." But even so, we can't get around PFLU. Here's another way to think of it: You could argue that the XML namespaces spec does not care about the resource but if the string is a URI then there must be a resource (perhaps abstract). That follows from PFLU. An http: URI is a statement that there exists a resource that can be retrieved using the HTTP protocol: otherwise it isn't a URI but rather just a string that looks like a URI. If it is just a string that looks like a URI then it isn't guaranteed unique. Which isn't good enough for the namespaces spec. So obviously the strings are actually URIs. Which means that they must refer to abstract or concrete resources which (in the case of URL-addressed resources) can be retrieved according to the URL specification. > That analogy is bogus - the semantic of a URL, when used in a web hyperlink, > is well-defined. It doesn't have to be an HTML/XLink hyperlink. I could just have a text file: """ This document conforms to RFC2396 and uses the Appendix E conventions for delimiting URIs. (you cannot use HTTP to fetch this). """ The document is paradoxical. Plus, it is DAMN CONFUSING, just as URL-based namespaces are! > We are not specifying that the namespace URI be used as > anything but a string, for comparison purposes. There is no convincing > evidence that this violates the letter or spirit of any standard > anywhere. -Tim If you wanted it to be just a string then you shouldn't have made normative reference to a specification that defines the syntax and semantics of the string and that requires the existence of http-retrievable resources. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Tue Jun 1 00:35:34 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3752FA19.8AD53D9B@prescod.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 31 May 1999, Paul Prescod wrote: > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > No, that's not a "formal logic" change, that's a huge basic semantic > > change. If the IETF had wanted to forbid people using these for > > other purposes, they should say so. > > Okay, fine: > > "A Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) is a compact string of characters for > identifying an abstract or physical resource." > > Normatively referenced RFC 2396: http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc2396.html > > You can also read the section that begins "URI are characterized by the > following definitions." > > Paul's Fudamantal Law of URIs (PFLU): If a string does not identify a > resource then it not a URI. A string can be 'for' identifying an (abstract or physical) resource without any URI-string to resource bindings currently being in effect. for example, might be a URI whose purpose is to identify an abstract resource which is a set of documents on my server about a specific topic. This seems a reasonable use of an identifier. Seems odd to say that the string stops being a URI for those periods when no documents fall into the appropriate category. BTW this has all been much discussed on the WebDAV WG recently. See archives at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-dist-auth/1999AprJun/ for details, in particular the BIND Proposal thread. In general, I see no problem with a server managing a resource but (at some point in time) there being no generally agreed binding from a URI to that resource. At other points in time there might be several. The would-be-indentifying string remains a URI regardless. If... > "A Uniform Resource Identifier (URI) is a compact string of characters for > identifying an abstract or physical resource." ...read "string of characters _which_ identify an..." the situation would be different. As things stand the definition is about intent, not whether the URI does currently identify any resources. Dan -- Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1TN, UK. phone:+44(0)117-9287096 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Tue Jun 1 01:34:32 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> <14162.43529.767446.988311@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <009e01beabbe$40c5e6c0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > Actually, that's not it. The point is that ordinary people (not just > domain-name owners, or book publishers, etc.) need to be able to > construct Namespace URIs, and those URIs have to be guaranteed unique, > at least at the moment that they construct them. Which is why my idea involves a URI scheme that has a schema-specific part that corresponds to HTTP. What I am suggesting is that if one has the right to http://www.sprynet.com/megginson/MyNamespace then one has the right to: hname://www.sprynet.com/megginson/MyNamespace The only difference is one is explicitly stating in the latter that it is irretrievable. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Tue Jun 1 01:39:43 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> <199905311704.MAA06138@rgate2.ricochet.net> Message-ID: <00a101beabbe$f7df6020$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > Turn it around-- it would be intrinsically good to require > all namespaces to reference a retrievable document. But this is what started my whole point. How do you distinguish the "thing" from the "retrievable document"? It isn't so much a problem with namespaces because the "Creator" of a namespace is pretty much going to be the "Creator" of the descriptive document.But consider your example of using: http://isbn.org/isbn/1-57595-180-0B to refer to a book *and* to the MARC record. The "Creator" of the book is the author but the "Creator" of the MARC record probably someone else. But THEY HAVE THE SAME URL! James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cfranks at microsoft.com Tue Jun 1 02:26:29 1999 From: cfranks at microsoft.com (Charles Frankston) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Status of XML-Data Message-ID: As Daniel Veillard has already pointed out, submissions to the W3C are effectively frozen in time and don't get updated or corrected. However, although the XML-Data submission was not revised, work did continue on XML-Data concepts. The XML parser that ships with IE5 supports validation against a schema language that is descended from (and a subset of) XML-Data. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp (bonus points if you can identify the typos there as well). This language has also been used as one of the inputs to the W3C XML Schema work that is currently ongoing. > -----Original Message----- > From: Oliver Becker [mailto:obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de] > Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 6:10 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Status of XML-Data > > > Hi, > > could anyone tell me the current status of the XML-Data working draft? > http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ > > The usage of namespaces is out of date, furthermore I encountered > some bugs/typos, but there's no link to an errata page. > Will the work on XML-Data be continued or is it obsolete and will > be replaced by other working drafts or recommendations? > Does any kind of (free) software exist which checks XML documents > against XML-Data DTDs? > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 04:50:09 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3752CB9E.F8D16B5@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000201beabd8$87924bb0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > > Jonathan Borden wrote: > > > > A namespace URI does not point to a resource. The URI is used only as a > > unique identifier. > > It does not *need to* point to a resource. But it may. The URI > specification does not say that it must not point to a resource. > Let me clarify. As per the XML namespace specification, the URI is used only as an identifier, the XML namespace specification does not ever use the URI in a way that resolution to a document is at all meaningful. Hence, the fact that the URI may or may not point to a resource is completely irrelevant as far as XML namespaces are concerned. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 04:54:13 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3752DD68.A839F1FD@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000301beabd9$1ad76810$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > > Tim Bray wrote: > > > > At 12:47 PM 5/31/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > > >> > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically bad to me. ... > > > > >Well, the first problem is that it is wrong: it is in violation of IETF > > >specifications about the semantics of http: URLs. Personally, > I think that > > >standards incompliance should be argument enough. > > > > No. The IETF docs explain how a URI may be used to reference a resource > > on the Web. They further say that URIs are in fact designed to > facilitate > > this process. There is nothing in there I've seen stating that > they *must* > > be so used, nor that they may not be used for other purposes. Or am > > I missing something? -Tim > > I'm talking specifically about the definition of HTTP URLs. > > "The HTTP URL scheme is used to designate Internet resources accessible > using HTTP (HyperText Transfer Protocol)." > > (I guess from a formal logic perspective it should end with "and no > others") > > If you use them to designate non-Internet resources NOT accessible by HTTP > then I consider that an obvious abuse, even if the HTTP spec. isn't > sufficiently anal to disallow the practice from a formal logic > perspective. > I still fail to see what actual, current and/or practical problem this creates with respect to XML namespaces? > > If we take advantage of this formal logic loophole then the elephants can > come barging through. > What elephants will come barging through where and what will they do when they get there? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 05:33:18 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:39 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <199905311704.MAA06138@rgate2.ricochet.net> Message-ID: <000c01beabde$94b93e10$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Carl Hage wrote: > I think the URI identifying namespaces and DTDs should be URLs > not URNs. An XML document without retrievable documentation on > the DTD should be considered non-compliant. By definition XML namespace URI's are URNs *not* URLs regardless of which URI scheme/namespace they use. Quoting from RFC 2396 (note that this supercedes the definition of URL!!!): A URI can be further classified as a locator, a name, or both. The term "Uniform Resource Locator" (URL) refers to the subset of URI that identify resources via a representation of their primary access mechanism (e.g., their network "location"), rather than identifying the resource by name or by some other attribute(s) of that resource. The term "Uniform Resource Name" (URN) refers to the subset of URI that are required to remain globally unique and persistent even when the resource ceases to exist or becomes unavailable. ... A URN differs from a URL in that it's primary purpose is persistent labeling of a resource with an identifier. That identifier is drawn from one of a set of defined namespaces, each of which has its own set name structure and assignment procedures. The "urn" scheme has been reserved to establish the requirements for a standardized URN namespace, as defined in "URN Syntax" [RFC2141] and its related specifications. Note that when the string "http://www.w3.org/xxx" is used as an XML namespace URI this is a URN not a URL by definition (the scheme remains "http"). Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jackandgina at mindspring.com Tue Jun 1 05:45:32 1999 From: jackandgina at mindspring.com (jackandgina@mindspring.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX References: <000801bea783$06a3b920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> <14156.24493.914825.911719@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37535A47.1D3F2492@mindspring.com> I was initially frustrated with SAX's lack of support for accessing the DTD. Unlike the other XML efforts (XSchema, XSL, etc.) DTDs are not written as XML and it would be nice to access the DTD's internals as well as. I've come to understand you point about SAX being low level, but I'm still not sure I agree with it to the point of excluding DTD handling. So I'm rolling my own library for DTDs similarly to the way SAX is meant for the actual xml documents. Regards, Jack Bolles ThoughtWorks, LLC David Megginson wrote: > ... > By the way, how many SAX implementors have ever used the SAX 1.0 > DTDHandler interface in a real-world installation? The XML 1.0 spec > requires processors to report the information in that interface, but > I'd be very interested to know about actual usage patterns. > > All the best, > > David xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 1 06:34:04 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: Message-ID: <3753597E.6B5C8E02@prescod.net> Dan Brickley wrote: > > A string can be 'for' identifying an (abstract or physical) resource > without any URI-string to resource bindings currently being in effect. According to RFC 2396, A URI is a sequence of characters with a restricted syntax that can act as a reference to something that has identity. If the something doesn't exist then it cannot and is thus not a URI. > for > example, might be a URI whose purpose is to identify an abstract > resource which is a set of documents on my server about a specific > topic. This seems a reasonable use of an identifier. Seems odd to say > that the string stops being a URI for those periods when no documents > fall into the appropriate category. The abstract resource is a list which is current empty. There is no problem here. In HyTime terms the result of your query is the empty nodelist. In SQL terms it is an empty recordset. That's not the same as not referring to *anything* which is what some people are claiming about namespace URIs. > In general, I see no problem with a server managing a resource but (at > some point in time) there being no generally agreed binding from a URI > to that resource. At other points in time there might be several. No, there can be only one resource identified by a URI. It may be a list-y resource but it is a single resource. > ...read "string of characters _which_ identify an..." the situation > would be different. As things stand the definition is about intent, not > whether the URI does currently identify any resources. Even so it would be wrong to use an HTTP URL without intent to point to something which is retrievable by HTTP. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 1 06:34:01 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <000201beabd8$87924bb0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <37535C58.3B445A5F@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > > Let me clarify. As per the XML namespace specification, the URI is used > only as an identifier, the XML namespace specification does not ever use the > URI in a way that resolution to a document is at all meaningful. Hence, the > fact that the URI may or may not point to a resource is completely > irrelevant as far as XML namespaces are concerned. I agree 100%. According to the intention of the namespace specification editors the fact that a URI *must* point to a resource is not relevant to the namespaces spec despite some ambiguous wording that might make it seem that it did. But there are specifications being built on top of the namespaces specification that make use of the URI. These specifications are not right or wrong -- the namespace spec is silent about what happens if you dereference the URI. When these specifications are deployed, software will attempt to dereference namespace URIs. That software will not know whether to report inaccessible URLs as errors or retry on the hope that it is available now or merely assume that that namespace doesn't have an associated document. Do we report an error or merely continue? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 1 06:44:40 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <000c01beabde$94b93e10$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <37536142.203BB28A@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > Note that when the string "http://www.w3.org/xxx" is used as an XML > namespace URI this is a URN not a URL by definition (the scheme remains > "http"). That string is not syntactically a URN. Please see RFC 2141. It is quite explicit: All URNs have the following syntax (phrases enclosed in quotes are REQUIRED): ::= "urn:" ":" If I'm right on this issue (and what room is there for dispute) and you are right that it cannot be interpreted as a URL in the context that we are discussing (more subtle but still, I think right) then you must agree with me that this is not a URI *of any sort* and thus in violation of the namespaces specification which is both clear and consistent in this regard. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 1 06:45:01 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <3.0.32.19990531110744.00a04410@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3752DD68.A839F1FD@prescod.net> <14162.64310.589514.658642@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37535FAC.226B362B@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > In the case of namespace URIs, we're looking at a different use domain > (naming XML elements and attributes), not just a logical loophole. If a spec makes a normative reference to XML then it gets whatever semantics are embedded in the XML specification. If the infoset was part of XML as it may be one day then they would get those semantics. And if there is an entity reference then they can't complain if a parser for their app makes a network transaction to resolve the entity. If they wanted to use only the syntax and override all or some of the semantics (e.g. ignore entity references) then they could do that. But the namespaces spec builds on the semantics of URIs -- it is the very semantics of URIs that make them unique. Without those semantics I could build an http://www.megginson.com/foo namespace URI without impunity. "It's just a damn string", I would cry, "ignore what the URL spec. says it means!" -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk Tue Jun 1 07:18:10 1999 From: guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk (Guy Murphy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Using XLink for locator grouping.... Message-ID: <001701beabee$1e366500$e579fea9@fusax> Hi. I am interested int he opinion of anyone interested. Then I got to thinking, that maybe the following might be more appropriate, in that it is more descriptive.... All the anchors specified are related in that they are all participating resources. Within the context of this content model however, they do not have any relationship between each other. Does anybody have strong feelings on this matter? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated as to date I've only looked at XLink for gathering reources for presentation, such as bringing together XML documents and XSL stylesheets for transformation and presentation. Cheers Guy xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Tue Jun 1 07:35:33 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: <37535A47.1D3F2492@mindspring.com> Message-ID: hi, is it possible to access the DTD structure using DOM api. thanks in advance balaji ranjan On Mon, 31 May 1999 jackandgina@mindspring.com wrote: > I was initially frustrated with SAX's lack of support for accessing the DTD. Unlike the other > XML efforts (XSchema, XSL, etc.) DTDs are not written as XML and it would be nice to access > the DTD's internals as well as. I've come to understand you point about SAX being low level, > but I'm still not sure I agree with it to the point of excluding DTD handling. > > So I'm rolling my own library for DTDs similarly to the way SAX is meant for the actual xml > documents. > > Regards, > > Jack Bolles > ThoughtWorks, LLC > > > David Megginson wrote: > > > ... > > By the way, how many SAX implementors have ever used the SAX 1.0 > > DTDHandler interface in a real-world installation? The XML 1.0 spec > > requires processors to report the information in that interface, but > > I'd be very interested to know about actual usage patterns. > > > > All the best, > > > > David > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From francis at redrice.com Tue Jun 1 12:57:58 1999 From: francis at redrice.com (francis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Status of XML-Data References: <199905311309.PAA19546@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <3753BC5E.94F83653@redrice.com> Hi Oliver, Oliver Becker wrote: > Does any kind of (free) software exist which checks XML documents > against XML-Data DTDs? IE 5 includes support for validating XML documents against a subset of XML-Data Schemas. For the rest of us, I am right now writing a partial meta-validator for xml Schema [1] in XSLT [2], along the lines I suggested in an earlier note [3]. When run against an xml Schema schema, it generates an XSLT validator for validating the structural content of an XML document against the constraints of the original schema. (xml Schema also supports data typing of individual elements but that will need RegExps in the XSLT processor at the very least.) I've switched from IE5 as my target XSLT processor to James Clark's XT [4], which will actually run code snippets straight from the XSLT WD - the benefit to us of making him the editor. Incidentally the use of XSLT as a meta language to generate XSLT seems to me to pass the Leventhal challenge [5], in that I doubt it could be done as cleanly, compactly or effectively in, say, javaScript (though it certainly *could* be done - javaScript's OO features are wonderfully over-powered for use as a scripting language). Thanks - Francis. [1] xml Schema - http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/ [2] XSL Transformations (XSLT) - http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xslt/ [3] generating XSL validators - http://www.redrice.com/ci/generatingXslValidators.html [4] James Clarks' XT - http://www.jclark.com/xml/xt.html [5] the Leventhal challenge - http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/05/xsl/xslconsidered_1.html -- Francis Norton. Air Rage - a "flight *and* fight" reaction? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jun 1 13:12:35 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3753597E.6B5C8E02@prescod.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul, Paul said: According to RFC 2396, A URI is a sequence of characters with a restricted syntax that can act as a reference to something that has identity. If the something doesn't exist then it cannot and is thus not a URI. Didier says: Exactly. A URI represent something. It is a U_niform R_esource I_dentifier. It provides identitity to a resource. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jun 1 13:12:00 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <000c01beabde$94b93e10$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, Jonathan said: Note that when the string "http://www.w3.org/xxx" is used as an XML namespace URI this is a URN not a URL by definition (the scheme remains "http"). Didier says: Not exactly. The string http://www3.org/xxx cannot be considered a URN it is a URL based on the HTTP scheme. The example below is a URN: urn:tns:ZDNet:Magazines:InternetWorld To be qualified as a URN the string should be structured as follow: urn:: :: Name space identifier :: any string constructed as defined in RFC 2141 (some characters like "/" needs to be encoded for resolution but not for human display) To see the difference let's take LDAP. URL---> LDAP://ldap.itd.umich.edu/c=us URN---> urn:ldap:c=us In a URN we tend not to include a domain name witch is absolutely required for URL but not for URN. In fact, to include a location dependent context in a name jeopardize the permanency requirement. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 1 15:14:41 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: <37535A47.1D3F2492@mindspring.com> References: <000801bea783$06a3b920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> <14156.24493.914825.911719@localhost.localdomain> <37535A47.1D3F2492@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <14163.56538.209965.327529@localhost.localdomain> jackandgina@mindspring.com writes: > I was initially frustrated with SAX's lack of support for accessing > the DTD. Unlike the other XML efforts (XSchema, XSL, etc.) DTDs are > not written as XML and it would be nice to access the DTD's > internals as well as. I've come to understand you point about SAX > being low level, but I'm still not sure I agree with it to the > point of excluding DTD handling. > > So I'm rolling my own library for DTDs similarly to the way SAX is > meant for the actual xml documents. That's a great idea, and SAX2 will support such extensions itself, if you want. I should mention, however, that we have discussed adding some further DTD support to SAX2 in the form of optional handlers set using the SAX2 setProperty() method. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 15:26:07 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <02ad01beac31$671a1490$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Paul Prescod wrote: >Jonathan Borden wrote: >> > >> Note that when the string "http://www.w3.org/xxx" is used as an XML >> namespace URI this is a URN not a URL by definition (the scheme remains >> "http"). > >That string is not syntactically a URN. Please see RFC 2141. It is quite >explicit: > >All URNs have the following syntax (phrases enclosed in quotes are >REQUIRED): > > ::= "urn:" ":" > >If I'm right on this issue (and what room is there for dispute) and you >are right that it cannot be interpreted as a URL in the context that we >are discussing (more subtle but still, I think right) then you must agree >with me that this is not a URI *of any sort* and thus in violation of the >namespaces specification which is both clear and consistent in this >regard. > My reading of RFC 2396 suggests that the intention is to supercede the definitions of both URLs and URNs. Interestingly 2396 defines 'resource' as either an abstract or physical entity, an example of an abstract entity would be a namespace. A physical resource would be a document. What is not explicitly specified is whether the same URI may 'point' or name 2 separate resources, 1) an abstract resource e.g. namespace, property etc, and at the same time 2) a physical resource e.g. schema document. Clearly however, when used in XML namespaces and if the namespace URI *does* point to a schema document (this is outside the namespace spec) the URI does denote 2 distinct resources. Under the definition of URN in 2396, a URN is any URI whose intention is to reference an abstract resource, act primarily as a name, and/or not be retrievable via a network. Under the definition in 2396, "urn" defines a scheme/namespace (URI namespace) whose intention is to serve *only* for URNs, however the spec suggests that any scheme e.g. "http" can serve to define a URN, given the definition of URN in 2396 (part of which my earlier message quotes). So, my reading of RFC 2396 and the XML namespace spec leads me to conclude that all URIs used as XML namespaces are properly URNs regardless of the URI scheme prefix. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 15:37:06 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <02b701beac32$f129bfe0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Didier PH Martin wrote: >Hi Paul, > >Paul said: >According to RFC 2396, A URI is a sequence of characters with a restricted >syntax that can act as a reference to something that has identity. If the >something doesn't exist then it cannot and is thus not a URI. > >Didier says: >Exactly. A URI represent something. It is a U_niform R_esource I_dentifier. >It provides identitity to a resource. > Yes but 'existence' can mean abstract existence, i.e. existence as a concept or existence as a name. Hence any syntactically legal URI when used only as a name, identifies a resource. This abstract resource is the name itself. Under this definition of resource (explicit per RFC 2396) I completely agree that every URI identifies a resource. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 1 16:52:07 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:40 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> There is an alpha version of SAX2 for Java available for download from http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ Be warned that this is very early, and that everything is subject to change. I'd like to thank everyone on this list for their input, and I hope that all contributors will see at least some of their suggestions implemented (even if they're annoyed that others have been passed over). You also need the SAX 1.0 distribution to use SAX2. SAX2 does not replace SAX 1.0, but it does augment it by adding additional functionality for those who want it; for now, the feature/property setting and discovery is being handled through a separate interface. People are encouraged to start supporting SAX2, but SAX 1.0 implementations will not become obsolete. Here's what's in the SAX2 core: * package org.xml.sax - interface Configurable - class SAXNotSupportedException (extends SAXException) - class SAXNotRecognizedException (extends SAXNotSupportedException) * package org.xml.sax.misc - interface DeclHandler - interface LexicalHandler - interface NamespaceHandler * package org.xml.sax.helpers - class ConfigurableParserAdapter (implements Parser, Configurable) I've also hacked together a simple SAX2 wrapper for Microstar's AElfred SAX 1.0 driver, which more-or-less correctly reports what features are available (such as external entity expansion) and unavailable (such as validation). It is available through a separate download. Note that even SAX2 parsers are free not to implement any or all of the core features and properties. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue Jun 1 18:05:22 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: XML Inclusion Proposal In-Reply-To: <374F3305.886A2B5B@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990601120415.00e6c820@tiac.net> > XML Node Inclusion Mechanism > ============================ As it happens, I've been working on an application which fits the definition for "XML Processor" and have been thinking about inclusion. So this is quite timely, and I might even volunteer to be among the first to implement it in a real application! ;) An interesting philosophical question, first: if I make this inclusion mechanism available to authors of documents in my XML conformant language (which is not, I expect, a language which will be useful to any XML processor other than my own), would it be reasonable to omit support for general entity references? I have no need for validation at the processing end (that should be done at the editing/creation end of my system process), so I've had no need up to this point to bother reading the external DTD subset in my processor. Your proposed inclusion mechanism is SO MUCH simpler than doing the same thing in an external DTD subset; I know that my authors would prefer to use that. So, this question in a nutshell: If I implement this proposal, I don't need to implement support for general entities in external DTD subsets -- should I do so anyway, or are we really on a path toward letting them wither and die? Question 2: I think I understand your intent, but just to be sure: what do you *expect* the included document to look like? Does it start with: Would you expect it to have a DOCTYPE, or not? Since you used the word "text" I suppose you might have been implying that the included stuff isn't XML at all, but rather is just plain text, however the linking bit leads me to believe that this is not the case. I suspect I could just make my own rules for my authors (e.g., the included document must be well formed, must not includes a doctype, etc.), but I was wondering if you had a particular set of conventions in mind. In particular, a well formed document has only one root node, which might be kind of inconvenient in a lot of cases (take your copyright example: I might want to always include both a blahblah and if I require that the included doc is well formed, I'd have to wrap those together, right?). Question 3: I'm not familiar enough with the XLink/XPointer specs to understand this part: >Source Anchor: > >The source anchor may be identified as an anchor described in a locator >with the role "source". It must address a single node in the same >document as the link. If an inline link has no locator named "source", >then the local resource serves as the source anchor. > >Target Anchor: > >The target anchor may be identified by a locator with the role >"content". If the link has no such locator but it has only one single >remote resource then that resource may be used as the content anchor. Can you give examples of each kind of inclusion this can lead to? I'm having a lot of trouble with understanding what these two paragraphs mean, exactly. Does this mean that I can include some miscellaneous nodes buried in the included document? For example, can I have a document license.xml with various licenses, and then include the one in particular that I need by using these anchors? How would that look? Sorry if these are dumb questions in the context of XLink/XPointer history, but I'm not really familiar with any of that... -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Jun 1 18:53:38 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37541066.A134E03E@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > In the HyTime and object oriented > worlds, I believe that the defining characteristic of things with identity > is that you can take two references and determine if they refer to the > same object. This may be feasible in closed-world scenarios. In the Real (i.e. open) World, identity may be a very hard problem! It took the ancient Greeks centuries to figure out that Hesperos (the Evening Star) and Phosphoros (the Morning Star) were the same object, what we call "the planet Venus". Another famous example: Tully and Cicero are the same man, "but it is neither trivial to say so nor absurd to doubt it". (Saul Kripke, _Naming and Necessity_) On the other hand, we have the equally classical problem of "the ship of Theseus", preserved at ancient Athens. Eventually every atom of it was replaced, but its *identity* remained the same. > How do we know, other than common sense? Right now we don't. But RDF can easily handle the question by defining a property "canonicalURI": note that this might, perhaps even should, be an URN rather than an URL. > This is more disturbing. It makes robust, scalable hypertext linking > essentially impossible. Consider it from an RDF point of view. If I use > RDF to attach a hundred properties to one URL and someone else uses it to > attach a hundred properties to another one then our property groupings > cannot be merged. They can, but only if RDF has a notion of the identity relationship. Right now it doesn't, but such a thing can and should be built. RDF, after all, expresses properties of resources, not URIs, even though it uses URIs to refer to resources, > The only solution, if we assume a one to one correspondence between URLs > and objects is to have EVERY NON-CANONICAL name for the object explicitly > do a redirect to the canonical name. This need not, probably should not, be done at the protocol level (it would make mirrors pointless) but rather at the RDF level. > I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't > already have one. Agreed, except that "canonical URI" is more like it; you implicitly accept this below by talking of UUIDs. > Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document > should describe the canonical URL. That's plausible, especially if you store RDF metadata in the head. (What "head" means in general for non-HTML is a question.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 1 19:24:04 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <036101beac52$9811ed40$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Paul Prescod wrote: > >But there are specifications being built on top of the namespaces >specification that make use of the URI. These specifications are not right >or wrong -- the namespace spec is silent about what happens if you >dereference the URI. > >When these specifications are deployed, software will attempt to >dereference namespace URIs. That software will not know whether to report >inaccessible URLs as errors or retry on the hope that it is available now >or merely assume that that namespace doesn't have an associated document. >Do we report an error or merely continue? This is a very difficult problem without an easy solution. This problem will arise with most data whose lifespan is expected to be long. Short term problems include network outages as well as firewall issues. Longer term problems include changes in DNS ownership. Still longer term problems include changes in network protocols (i.e. when http becomes a legacy and/or unsupported protocol). The only good solution to this problem is to keep schemas/DTDs together with documents and not depend on any network protocol. URNs aren't a solution to this problem, because URN's don't allow dereferencing (otherwise they become another type of URL). Wouldn't it also be an error to attempt to dereference "urn:xxx..."? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at chage.com Tue Jun 1 19:27:06 1999 From: carl at chage.com (Carl Hage) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <000c01beabde$94b93e10$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> References: <199905311704.MAA06138@rgate2.ricochet.net> Message-ID: <199906011729.MAA27012@rgate2.ricochet.net> From: "Jonathan Borden" > By definition XML namespace URI's are URNs *not* URLs regardless of which > URI scheme/namespace they use. A URL can be a URN if the creator declares it to remain unique. From: "Mark D. Anderson" > But it would be great if there were a standard that also > allowed for greater precision, so that one could distinguish > the notions of: > - a URN > - a dtd or xml schema > - an english spec > - a document describing rights for some TBD rights protocol It's hard to tell if a URL has the intent to be permanent (is a URN), though if it is used in a context requiring a URN, one should assume it is. A META or LINK tag on an HTML document could declare a URL to be permanent. (In case of a redirect or access via mirror, the original URI must be stored in the retrieved document.) Using HTTP, a language specification and MIME type can be selected in a request (with the Accept). If the URI lead to an HTML document with a human-readable title page, the tag could identify the DTD, Schema, Copyright, alternative languages, etc. A could identify that page as a URI for use in an xml DTD. The HTTP server could return an HTML document for a namespace URI unless an Accept was received indicating XML, where an XML document could contain all the metadata encoded in XML. (Maybe in RDF). Such a scheme could provide all and more capabilities than a non- retrivable URN, plus is backwards compatible with browsers and search tools. From: "Didier PH Martin" > Why should URN usage for name space identification shouldn't > be used? Do you have a good argument against it? If so, let's > share it. I have an argument against URLs: location dependency. URLs are location independent via DNS and/or redirection. An unretrievable URN is location nonexistant. If you use a DTD in spam.org, your software deserves to fail. Instead of using some top-level IANA "urn: my:spam/carl.dtd", an http URI-space can be used with an http server behind it to receive queries. For example, "http://urn.xml.org/my/spam/carl.dtd" could act as a URN/URL registrant and redirect the /my paths to somewhere else, or return a filed document. I suspect www.cpan.org is more permanent than arbitrary IANA name registrations. URLs are permanent, persistent, non-reusable, and location- independent as long as the creator maintains it to be so. Anyone can create a URN registry based on http (e.g. purl.org). That doesn't mean people won't violate the URN requirements. We'd need an XML Crimes Tribunal in the Hague to fix that. From: Paul Prescod > urn:urn-:: [ : ] With the IANA URN scheme, it is not possible to retrieve anything given the URI unless you customize your software for each URN registrant. However, IANA could create an http URI space which could at least return the name of the registrant, and usually something better. The urn above can be converted into http://urn.iana.org/::: in order to make it useful. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl Hage C. Hage Associates Voice/Fax: 1-408-244-8410 1180 Reed Ave #51 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jun 1 21:26:41 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <199906011729.MAA27012@rgate2.ricochet.net> Message-ID: Hi Carl, Carl said: A URL can be a URN if the creator declares it to remain unique. Didier says: False, it also as to conform to RFC2141 specs. Actually (until the next URN RFC) a HTTP URL cannot be considered as a valid URN for several reasons: a) non encoding of "/" b) no "urn" identifier at the beginning of the name. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jun 1 21:26:40 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <02ad01beac31$671a1490$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, Jonathan said: Under the definition of URN in 2396, a URN is any URI whose intention is to reference an abstract resource, act primarily as a name, and/or not be retrievable via a network. Under the definition in 2396, "urn" defines a scheme/namespace (URI namespace) whose intention is to serve *only* for URNs, however the spec suggests that any scheme e.g. "http" can serve to define a URN, given the definition of URN in 2396 (part of which my earlier message quotes). So, my reading of RFC 2396 and the XML namespace spec leads me to conclude that all URIs used as XML namespaces are properly URNs regardless of the URI scheme prefix. Didier says: This is not what RFC 2396 says. You are right when you say that a URI coudl be a URL or a URN. However a HTTP scheme cannot be considered as a URN because it is already part of the URL space. If however you create a name space having as NID "HTTP" then yes this would be a URN. However each "/" would have to be encoded. Thus, a URN cannot be with "/" as delimiters. Obviously we'll have to create a new RFC for hierarchical name spaces having "/" as delimiters but actually you would have to encode each "/". Thus your name space would look like: urn:http:domain.com%(hex for /)context%(hex for /)etc... The above URN confor to RFC 2141 specs. However the URL: http://domain.com/context/etc... do not conform to RFC 2141 and thus cannot be said to be a URN. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jlangdon at copeland.com Tue Jun 1 22:38:55 1999 From: jlangdon at copeland.com (Jeff Langdon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <85256783.0071498C.00@mail.copeland.com> Is there a central repository for all RFC specs?? Carl said: A URL can be a URN if the creator declares it to remain unique. Didier says: False, it also as to conform to RFC2141 specs. Actually (until the next URN RFC) a HTTP URL cannot be considered as a valid URN for several reasons: a) non encoding of "/" b) no "urn" identifier at the beginning of the name. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Tue Jun 1 23:18:53 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: How to create a new document with a DocumentType node (DTD) In-Reply-To: <30649320C177D111ADEC00A024E9F2971D230B@exchange-server.dega.com> (message from Ed Howland on Tue, 25 May 1999 12:49:27 -0700) References: <30649320C177D111ADEC00A024E9F2971D230B@exchange-server.dega.com> Message-ID: <199906011622.LAA01177@bruno.techno.com> > We got stuck. I know the DOM level 1 spec says that editing > DocumntType nodes is verboten, but can't you create one somehow for > new documents. What if you are writing an up translator, say from a > database and want to make it a valid document, by including either a > DTD URI or the complete DOCTYPE entry. What are we missing here? Please contact me, if you like, for a demo of GroveMinder, which can provide access to XML documents, including every aspect of their DTDs, as if they were SGML documents, according to the ISO-standard SGML Property Set, which was one of the inputs to the design of the (less comprehensive) DOM. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Tue Jun 1 23:20:00 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Groves? Please ::choke::.. In-Reply-To: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> (guy-murphy@easynet.co.uk) References: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> Message-ID: <199906012102.QAA01292@bruno.techno.com> > What exactly are "groves"? > > The clearest def I could get of them... > > [QUOTE] > Groves are the abstract representation of an underlying notation and the > in-memory realisation is constructed using a notation processor, for example > the grove for an SGML instance is built by the SGML notation processor. > [QUOTE] > > Now up until the last bit this sounds like DOM. Are groves just an object > model? > > Oh and if anybody reading this is responsible for writting HyTime > documentation... come the revolution you'll be among the first put against > the wall and shot!... right after those people at the ISO. > > Goodnight I'll try to remember to bring two blindfolds for myself, one for each of my well-deserved executions. Yes, the grove paradigm is an object model, while the DOM is not an object model, despite its name. If the DOM had been rigorously built on a formal definition of the information set of XML, then a document that was accessed via the DOM would be a grove. I'll try this another way: Assuming that we have a grove of an XML document, putting a DOM-conforming API layer over it is a trivial matter. And a third way: The DOM is only for XML. Groves, on the other hand, can be built according to any valid property set, not just the XML property set. Making everything accessible as a grove makes everything addressable, which is the secret of HyTime's claim that, via the grove paradigm, everything, anywhere, anytime, is addressable in any convenient terms. The "convenient terms" are selected when the property set is written. If anybody really wants to understand groves at a visceral level, they should ask me for a copy of the GroveMinder demo. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Tue Jun 1 23:19:03 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <199906011641.LAA01181@bruno.techno.com> [Didier:] > The DTD problem and document validation is only part of the problem > and we are actually facing a lot of issues to be resolved in order > that all parties recognize that a transaction is valid. XML.org, > resetta.net, eco and others try to create conventions on which all > parties will have to agree. One thing remain, a DTD is > insufficient. We also need: a) reliable repositories and document > specification conventions and references Sounds like the role of xml.org to me. > b) way to tell that this transaction is really from the one who > claim being the transaction initiator (The community have to agree > on an authentication method) Yup. Actually, we need an engine for this purpose, and, even more important, * the ability to plug that engine into our doc processing applications, and * the ability to inherit the information architecture that that engine understands into any other information architecture. Sounds like the proper role of the grove paradigm, with property sets for inherited architectures. XML Schema is getting there, but it's not quite there yet. > c) We won't have a simple universe, so there will be more than one > document specification for the same kind of transaction. So we'll > need official translation form a transaction format to an other and > repository where these rule are stored. What's really needed is a formalized property set for each information set that is conveyable by each information architecture. With such property sets, arbitrary conversions become possible, and hooking each architecture's engine to each other architecture's engine becomes a piece of cake. Yes, we certainly need a repository for such property sets. Sounds like the role of xml.org to me. > d) And finally interpreters or parsers+interpreters that can > validate a document and interface with back ends ERP. You're describing architecture-specific engines for creating property-set conforming groves from interchangable resources. Groves are, by definition, ready to connect to ERP or any other kind of application. > Actually DTD is insufficient to provide all necessary information, Right. You need not only an interchange specification, but also the abstract information set. That's what a property set is supposed to be. There is a lot of confusion out there. The simple fact is that we need BOTH an interchange spec AND an abstract information spec in order to efficiently interchange any particular kind of information in an application-neutral and vendor-neutral fashion. > Schema is not yet a recommendation. Time is clicking and corporation > want to take position in this new rat race. So...I am not so sure > that only DTD will resolve the problem especially when you > dynamically compose a new XML document from XML document (EX: a > transaction that includes a request for a catalog and a purchase > order - two different documents merged into one). The DTD would have > to be dynamically created as the document is. And that's a completely and easily supported scenario, given inheritable architectures, property sets, and groves. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue Jun 1 23:33:59 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: * David Megginson | | There is an alpha version of SAX2 for Java available for download from | | http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ Great! I'm really happy to see SAX2 moving forward another step. Immediate reactions: it looks good, but filters seem to be missing. I think filters really should be in SAX2, for the following reasons: - the basic filter interface and concept is simple and fundamental - having a single basic standard for filters is important, as many different packages will probably/hopefully use them as pluggable components (MDSAX, SAXON, XSL processors, parsers etc) - it needs to be done anyway, and doing it in SAX2 saves us an extra layer of standards I'll start on translating SAX2 to Python now and accumulate more specific comments as I do so. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jes at kuantech.com Tue Jun 1 23:36:33 1999 From: jes at kuantech.com (Jeffrey E. Sussna) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001beac76$bf6ef170$7e18a8c0@jsussna.quokka.com> There appear to be conflicts between RFC's 2396 (URI: Generic Syntax) and 2141 (URN Syntax). Interestingly, RFC 2396 is not specified as updating RFC 2141. In any case: *Both specs agree that a URN must be preceded by the scheme "urn". *RFC 2141 states that the forward-slash (and other reserved) character should not be used in unescaped form, as its "applicability" is (or was at time of writing, 5/97) still open to debate. *RFC 2396, on the other hand, states that forward-slash (and other reserved) character should not be used in unescaped form IF "the data...would conflict with the reserved purpose". This seems to imply that it's ok to use "/" unescaped if it denotes a hierarchical namespace. *RFC 2396 APPEARS to state that an "authority" must be preceded by double-forward-slash. It is not totally clear to me whether this applies to the NID component of a URN. First of all, I would be interested in opinions as to the above statements. Secondly, I would be interested in opinions as to the advisability of going ahead and using unencoded forward-slashes to denote hierarchy within a URN. I need to denote such hierarchy, and it seems hard to believe that forward-slash wouldn't be defined to denote such hierarchy. Thus encoding it seems like a waste of time, effort, and an unnecessary loss of readability. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Didier PH Martin > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 12:12 PM > To: 'XML Dev' > Subject: RE: Just require URLs > > > Hi Jonathan, > > Jonathan said: > Under the definition of URN in 2396, a URN is any URI > whose intention is > to reference an abstract resource, act primarily as a name, > and/or not be > retrievable via a network. Under the definition in 2396, > "urn" defines a > scheme/namespace (URI namespace) whose intention is to serve > *only* for > URNs, however the spec suggests that any scheme e.g. "http" > can serve to > define a URN, given the definition of URN in 2396 (part of > which my earlier > message quotes). > > So, my reading of RFC 2396 and the XML namespace spec leads me to > conclude that all URIs used as XML namespaces are properly > URNs regardless > of the URI scheme prefix. > > Didier says: > This is not what RFC 2396 says. You are right when you say > that a URI coudl > be a URL or a URN. However a HTTP scheme cannot be considered as a URN > because it is already part of the URL space. > > If however you create a name space having as NID "HTTP" then > yes this would > be a URN. However each "/" would have to be encoded. Thus, a > URN cannot be > with "/" as delimiters. Obviously we'll have to create a new RFC for > hierarchical name spaces having "/" as delimiters but > actually you would > have to encode each "/". Thus your name space would look like: > > urn:http:domain.com%(hex for /)context%(hex for /)etc... > > The above URN confor to RFC 2141 specs. However the URL: > http://domain.com/context/etc... do not conform to RFC 2141 > and thus cannot > be said to be a URN. > > regards > Didier PH Martin > mailto:martind@netfolder.com > http://www.netfolder.com > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net Wed Jun 2 00:11:20 1999 From: RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net (Ron Daniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:41 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <0D611E39F997D0119F9100A0C931315C52F81F@datafusionnt1> Jonathan Borden says: > URN's don't allow > dereferencing (otherwise they become another type of URL). Wouldn't it > also > be an error to attempt to dereference "urn:xxx..."? > [Ron Daniel] I have seen some similar assertions that URNs are not to be resolved. That is not the case. URNs are meant to be resolved, but they do not specify a particular resolution procedure that must be followed. You are free to resolve them any way you want. The URN WG did define one resolution procedure that people could use as a fallback in case they came across novel URNs that their local resolution procedures could not handle. See RFCs 2168 and 2169 for that fallback procedure. (Truth in advertising compels me to say that I'm an editor of those two documents). Regards, Ron Daniel Jr. DATAFUSION, Inc. 139 Townsend Street, Suite 100 San Francisco, CA 94107 415.222.0100 fax 415.222.0150 rdaniel@datafusion.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 2 00:16:02 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: URNs and SPAM Message-ID: <37545909.9263BDEC@prescod.net> John Cowan noted that an email-based URN mechanism could be harvested by both current and future spam-address collectors. There are three possible levels of defence that could be used separately or combined: 1. don't worry about it. We'll have other URN mechanisms soon and today's harvesters won't recognize urn:urn-22:foo@bar.com:blah anyhow. 2. Slightly obfuscate the syntax: e.g. change the "@" to a ":" Perhaps reverse the order of the domain name and the user name. 3. Massively obfuscate the syntax: use crypt. Even URN-smart bots won't be able to uncrypt them. Downside: this is complex and there is a really, really really, tiny chance of two email addresses generating the same crypted text. I am leaning toward option 2. By the time spammers have heard of "URNs" and figured out that some have email addresses in them we will have a bunch of other URN-definition mechanisms. They will probably be harder to use but will not have this particular flaw. Those who are worried about the flaw can use those other mechanisms. And of course we can update the spec. if it became a problem anyhow. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 2 00:27:33 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <02ad01beac31$671a1490$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <37541796.A971DD74@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > Interestingly 2396 defines 'resource' as > either an abstract or physical entity, an example of an abstract entity > would be a namespace. Tim claims that a namespace is not a resource of any sort. The namespace mechanism uses a string that happens to be a URI. The existence of the URI implies the existence of the resource but it does not imply that the namespace *is* the resource. I have pointed to terminology in the namespaces specification that could be used to support that view but it clearly was not the intent of at least one of the editors. It is clearly the intent of RFC 2396 that it be possible to differentiate between URLs and URNs based on syntax, not on context. Furthermore, 2386 does not claim to update or obsolete 2141 which says: "this document sets forward the canonical syntax for URNs" and says: "all URNs have the following syntax..." > Under the definition of URN in 2396, a URN is any URI whose intention is > to reference an abstract resource, act primarily as a name, and/or not be > retrievable via a network. Under the definition in 2396, "urn" defines a > scheme/namespace (URI namespace) whose intention is to serve *only* for > URNs, however the spec suggests that any scheme e.g. "http" can serve to > define a URN, given the definition of URN in 2396 (part of which my earlier > message quotes). It does not suggest any such thing. Rather it goes out of its way to justify its use of URLs as examples instead of URNs. If they could be interepted either way, why bother? URN "identifiers [are] drawn from a set of defined namespaces." *Defined URN Namespaces* -- as in draft-ietf-urn-nid-req > So, my reading of RFC 2396 and the XML namespace spec leads me to > conclude that all URIs used as XML namespaces are properly URNs regardless > of the URI scheme prefix. As David Megginson said much more eloquently, you can read as much into the RFCs and IDs as you can into the Bible. I have never heard a reading compatible with yours before so it certainly isn't a basis for interoperable behavior. If http://www.w3.org can be interpreted as a URN without some explicit statement in the containing context but based rather on the state of someone's neurotransmitters and "intent" then we have are destined to have a big interoperability problem. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net Wed Jun 2 00:30:39 1999 From: RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net (Ron Daniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <0D611E39F997D0119F9100A0C931315C52F820@datafusionnt1> A pedantic point to clarify some of the confusion over '/' in URNs and URLs. RFC 2141 (the URN syntax spec) says that forward slashes SHOULD NOT be used in their unescaped form. The pedantic point is that to really really really forbid this, the spec would have said MUST NOT. (And I know for a fact that the choice of SHOULD NOT vs. MUST NOT was deliberate in this case). The use of '/' gets bound up with the question of 'relative URNs' and whether they are meaningful. The working group did not reach consensus on that point, so the compromise was to discourage the use of '/' but not totally forbid it. RFC 2396 is correct here. You MUST use '/' to denote hierarchy. If you want to use them for something else you MUST %encode them. If you want to do URNs with hierarchical levels in them, you MAY use '/' but you SHOULD NOT. (The reason for that, as I recall, is that it is very easy to break relative URNs.) Speaking personally, if I were sure that I would not be doing relative identifiers, I wouldn't let the "SHOULD NOT" stop me from using '/'. regards, Ron Daniel Jr. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 2 00:35:35 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: URNs and SPAM References: <37545909.9263BDEC@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37546096.CB7B87DA@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > 1. don't worry about it. We'll have other URN mechanisms soon and today's > harvesters won't recognize urn:urn-22:foo@bar.com:blah anyhow. I suspect this is false, and that harvesters will recognize "foo@bar.com" embedded in any text. > I am leaning toward option 2. I like option 2 also. "I do not like this URNish spam! I do not like it, Sam-I-am!" "There was only one URN -- but that was URN-22." -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jes at kuantech.com Wed Jun 2 01:24:35 1999 From: jes at kuantech.com (Jeffrey E. Sussna) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <0D611E39F997D0119F9100A0C931315C52F820@datafusionnt1> Message-ID: <000201beac85$e2fafd00$7e18a8c0@jsussna.quokka.com> Thanks, your comments are very well put and helpful. I do not in fact intend to use relative urn's. I do, however, need them to be as human-readable/writable as possible, and hierarchy supports those requirements in my case. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: Ron Daniel [mailto:RDaniel@DATAFUSION.net] > Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 1999 3:33 PM > To: 'Jeffrey E. Sussna'; 'XML Dev' > Subject: RE: Just require URLs > > > A pedantic point to clarify some of the confusion over '/' in URNs > and URLs. > > RFC 2141 (the URN syntax spec) says that forward > slashes SHOULD NOT be used in their unescaped form. The > pedantic point is that to really really really forbid this, > the spec would have said MUST NOT. (And I know for a fact > that the choice of SHOULD NOT vs. MUST NOT was deliberate > in this case). > > The use of '/' gets bound up with the question of 'relative > URNs' and whether they are meaningful. The working group > did not reach consensus on that point, so the compromise > was to discourage the use of '/' but not totally forbid it. > > RFC 2396 is correct here. You MUST use '/' to denote hierarchy. > If you want to use them for something else you MUST %encode them. > If you want to do URNs with hierarchical levels in them, you > MAY use '/' but you SHOULD NOT. (The reason for that, as I > recall, is that it is very easy to break relative URNs.) > > Speaking personally, if I were sure that I would not be doing > relative identifiers, I wouldn't let the "SHOULD NOT" stop > me from using '/'. > > regards, > Ron Daniel Jr. > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed Jun 2 03:43:23 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <85256783.0071498C.00@mail.copeland.com> Message-ID: Hi Jeff, Is there a central repository for all RFC specs?? Yes http://www.ietf.org regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com - xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed Jun 2 04:06:49 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <37541796.A971DD74@prescod.net> Message-ID: <002001beac9b$a2abd0b0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > > Jonathan Borden wrote: > > > > Interestingly 2396 defines 'resource' as > > either an abstract or physical entity, an example of an abstract entity > > would be a namespace. > > Tim claims that a namespace is not a resource of any sort. The namespace > mechanism uses a string that happens to be a URI. The existence of the URI > implies the existence of the resource but it does not imply that the > namespace *is* the resource. I have pointed to terminology in the > namespaces specification that could be used to support that view but it > clearly was not the intent of at least one of the editors. Not everyone defines resource as it is defined in RFC 2396. Perhaps Tim might clarify his thought wrt this specific definition. > > > Under the definition of URN in 2396, a URN is any URI whose > intention is > > to reference an abstract resource, act primarily as a name, > and/or not be > > retrievable via a network. Under the definition in 2396, "urn" defines a > > scheme/namespace (URI namespace) whose intention is to serve *only* for > > URNs, however the spec suggests that any scheme e.g. "http" can serve to > > define a URN, given the definition of URN in 2396 (part of > which my earlier > > message quotes). > > It does not suggest any such thing. Rather it goes out of its way to > justify its use of URLs as examples instead of URNs. If they could be > interepted either way, why bother? URN "identifiers [are] drawn from a set > of defined namespaces." *Defined URN Namespaces* -- as in > draft-ietf-urn-nid-req If this is how namespaces are defined, you are correct. From 2396: "The URI scheme (Section 3.1) defines the namespace of the URI" I draw the conclusion that schemes such as "urn","http","ftp" define the URI namespace rather than "draft-ietf-urn-nid-req", so perhaps 2141 and 2396 define both "URN" and "namespace" differently. Granted reading RFCs is like reading the bible (or tea leaves), but a mark of a competant theologist (or tea leaf reader) is the ability to support one's argument via quoting the bible (or reading something into ones tea leaves):-) More seriously, a specification is only as good as the precision and clarity of its writing so hopefully these discussions will prompt greater precision and more clarity. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sysx at superlink.com Wed Jun 2 06:35:14 1999 From: sysx at superlink.com (Pawel Potocki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: IBM's xml4j 2.x and VisualCafe Message-ID: <3754B545.CAD07E3E@superlink.com> I wonder if anyone had problems working with IBM's xml parser for Java version 2.x (2.09 is the newest I belive) and Symantec's Visual Cafe 3.0a (3.0, 2.5a or any other). I just switched from IBM's xml parser version 1 (1.1.16) t o version 2 and have problem running examples in the debugger mode. Without debugger, it is OK, but with debuger I get exceptions and can't seems to find a way to fix them. I tried all sort of things, I pointed VisualCafe to different vm's and still same problem. Below I'm attaching printout from DOMCount example in the samples directory. Interesting anough that this works well in the IBM's VisaulAge for Java (debugging mode as well). Thanks for any input and help in this. -Pawel (this is from vm 1.1.7b in VisualCafe 3.0a): Exception raised: "Exception: java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException 32 at com.ibm.xml.internal.DefaultStringPool.ensureCapacity(DefaultStringPool.java:101) at com.ibm.xml.internal.DefaultStringPool.addString(DefaultStringPool.java:182) at com.ibm.xml.internal.UTF8CharReader$UTF8CharDataChunk.addString(UTF8CharReader.java:1597) at com.ibm.xml.internal.UTF8CharReader.addString(UTF8CharReader.java:52) at com.ibm.xml.internal.UTF8CharReader.callWSCharDataHandler(UTF8CharReader.java:919) at com.ibm.xml.internal.UTF8CharReader.scanContent(UTF8CharReader.java:650) at com.ibm.xml.internal.DefaultScanner.scanContent(DefaultScanner.java:1020) at com.ibm.xml.internal.DefaultScanner.scanDocument(DefaultScanner.java:405) at com.ibm.xml.framework.XMLParser.parse(XMLParser.java:327) at com.ibm.xml.framework.XMLParser.parse(XMLParser.java:371) at dom.wrappers.DOMParser.parse(DOMParser.java:59) at dom.DOMCount.count(DOMCount.java:71) at dom.DOMCount.main(DOMCount.java:213) at sun.tools.debug.MainThread.run(Agent.java:47) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 2 08:42:09 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: * David Megginson | | There is an alpha version of SAX2 for Java available for download | from | | http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ I've now done a preliminary Python translation and done most of the work on adding SAX2 features and properties to the xmlproc driver. Overall I think this is looking very good. Comments: - Should we have a CompleteHandlerBase in helpers which combines HandlerBase, DeclHandler, LexicalHandler and NamespaceHandler? - If one of the misc handlers are supported, must all the methods in it be supported? (For example, xmlproc currently won't support the CDATA callbacks in LexicalHandler.) - Should the *NamespaceDeclScope methods be called *NamespaceScope instead? It's a little less of a mouthful, at least. - Do we need to mandate a default value for namespace separator? Should it be space ( )? - Can namespace properties be tuned when namespace processing is off? - Should we add a DTDParser interface? In some cases one will only want to parse the DTD and since we have DeclHandler and DTDHandler it makes sense to me to add an interface to a DTD parser. Maybe like so: public interface DTDParser extends Configurable { public void setDTDHandler(DTDHandler handler); // used for parameter entities public void setEntityResolver(EntityResolver resolver); public void setLocale(Locale locale) throws SAXException; public void setErrorHandler(ErrorHandler handler); public void parse(InputSource source) throws SAXException, IOException; public void parse(String systemId) throws SAXException, IOException; } // Maybe we should also do something here to enable locator // support? Have a special read-only property for the locator? // (Ugly, I know.) // Features: external-param-entities // Properties: dom-node?, xml-string, DeclHandler - Where did AttributeList2 go? Also, I'll get back to the filter issue. Now I need to work on my thesis. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrew.douglas at netcentric-solutions.com Wed Jun 2 13:26:40 1999 From: andrew.douglas at netcentric-solutions.com (Andrew Douglas) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2679 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990602/eb1a54ba/attachment.bat From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 2 13:55:24 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. Message-ID: Andrew Douglas wrote, > > Hello > Goodbye > Gutten Adbend > Aufwiedersehen > > > My underlying structure looks like this > > > opentag(root) > | > zomcontent > |-----------+-----------------| > sequence sequence > |------+-----| |------+-------| > opentag(elone) opentag(eltwo) opentag(elone) opentag(eltwo) > | | | | > text text text text > > Not suprisingly, it looks like a tree! So, all these > things can be Nodes, but not all are Elements (opentags > are) -- some are probably DocumentFragments(zomcontent, > sequence, ...). > > So, my DOM implementation has the usual first/last > Child, getChildNodes, get Next/Previous siblings, and > so on, but sometimes these children aren't Elements, > but are DocumentFragements. Ahh ... no, I'm afraid that's not quite right. The DOMs idea of the structure of your document would be, Document doc Element root == doc.getDocumentElement() Element elone == root.getFirstChild() Text Hello == elone.getFirstChild() Element eltwo == elone.getNextSibling() Text Goodbye Element elone Text Gutten Adbend Element eltwo Text Aufwiedersehen A Document *never* has a DocumentFragment amongst its children: the latter exist solely to provide a lightweight holder for Nodes which are _owned_by_, but not _part_of_ a given Document. Note that all Nodes that are created on a particular Document (eg. via Document.createElement()) are always owned by that Document (and so can't be pasted into a different doc), but don't become part of it until they're explicitly added (eg., via someNode.appendChild()). I hope that helps a bit ... Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrew.douglas at netcentric-solutions.com Wed Jun 2 14:26:38 1999 From: andrew.douglas at netcentric-solutions.com (Andrew Douglas) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2475 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990602/226dbc91/attachment.bat From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 2 14:36:16 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. Message-ID: Andrew Douglas wrote, > The standard I've got states that a DocumentFragment is > a Node (or at least, it does in the Java headers I've > got). That was my mistake, I think. No mistake. A DocumentFragment *is* a Node. But if you try and insert it into the tree, you'll find that a conforming implementation will throw a HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR. > Plus, it seemed like fun and a good way of learning how > it all fits in The best way to learn an API is to implement it :-) Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Wed Jun 2 16:16:00 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:42 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEB8@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Jonathan Borden Writes: > Granted reading RFCs is like reading the bible (or tea > leaves), but a mark > of a competant theologist (or tea leaf reader) is the ability > to support > one's argument via quoting the bible (or reading something > into ones tea > leaves):-) > > More seriously, a specification is only as good as the > precision and > clarity of its writing so hopefully these discussions will > prompt greater > precision and more clarity. Actually, anyone can prove almost ANY theological point by quoting sections of the bible, just like anyone can prove almost any URI point by quoting sections of the RFCs. The competent [Christian] theologist, however, knows the bible cover to cover, and how those distinct sections fit in with the whole, just like the competent URI... um... "discusser" knows all of the RFCs, and how each section fit in with the whole. Sorry, I wasn't able to relate this to tea leaves. Or to other religions, for that matter. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 16:19:17 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: SAX2 Queries (was Re: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java) In-Reply-To: References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14165.15161.468164.927448@localhost.localdomain> Lars Marius Garshol writes: > - Should we have a CompleteHandlerBase in helpers which combines > HandlerBase, DeclHandler, LexicalHandler and NamespaceHandler? I'm reluctant, because I don't want to hard-code the optional handlers into the interface any more than I have to. Right now, the separate handler classes are present, but they are nowhere referred to. In the future, we may need to add new handler types (SchemaHandler?), and I don't want to have to change existing classes when we do so. > - If one of the misc handlers are supported, must all the methods in > it be supported? (For example, xmlproc currently won't support the > CDATA callbacks in LexicalHandler.) Opinions, anyone? Clearly, matching start/end events have to be both implemented or both skipped, but otherwise, what are people's expectations? > - Should the *NamespaceDeclScope methods be called *NamespaceScope > instead? It's a little less of a mouthful, at least. I thought about it, but the problem is that it's not the scope for the namespace, only for the declaration; the same namespace might be mentioned in several nested declarations. > - Do we need to mandate a default value for namespace separator? > Should it be space ( )? Yes, we do need a default. The DOM WG is struggling with this as well, and we might be able to piggy-back. Personally, I like , but I recall that John Cowan is partial to ^ (caret). > - Can namespace properties be tuned when namespace processing is off? No -- we need to make that clear > - Should we add a DTDParser interface? In some cases one will only > want to parse the DTD and since we have DeclHandler and DTDHandler > it makes sense to me to add an interface to a DTD parser. Maybe > like so: I don't think that we need a separate interface. After all, you could create SAX parsers for RTF, HTML, LaTeX, or just about anything -- there's no reason that someone couldn't create a SAXDTDParser class implementing Parser and Configurable, where the class tried to parse a DTD rather than a complete document. > - Where did AttributeList2 go? I was wondering if anyone would notice. I'm still not sure how to handle that -- should there be a feature that you can use to check whether the parser can deliver an extended attribute list? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 16:19:56 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14165.8743.130039.285638@localhost.localdomain> Lars Marius Garshol writes, ironically: > Immediate reactions: it looks good, but filters seem to be missing. > > I think filters really should be in SAX2, for the following reasons: > > - the basic filter interface and concept is simple and fundamental > > - having a single basic standard for filters is important, as many > different packages will probably/hopefully use them as pluggable > components (MDSAX, SAXON, XSL processors, parsers etc) > > - it needs to be done anyway, and doing it in SAX2 saves us an extra > layer of standards Two responses: 1. Do we need a filter *interface* at all, or can a filter just be a class that happens to implement Parser, Configurable, EntityResolver, DTDHandler, DocumentHandler, and ErrorHandler? (In other words, is it enough to set the parent parser/filter in the constructor?) 2. Actually, just last night I wrote an org.xml.sax.helpers.FilterAdapter base class that filters can easily be derived from (though they wouldn't have to be); by default, it just lets all events sink down to the application, and all configuration bubble up to the parser, but subclasses can simply override methods to make changes in either direction. I was thinking of including this class in the next SAX2 pre-release, if people are interested; I can also distribute it separately in the mean time. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 16:19:45 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <37541796.A971DD74@prescod.net> References: <02ad01beac31$671a1490$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <37541796.A971DD74@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14165.9061.742506.813990@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Tim claims that a namespace is not a resource of any sort. I cannot speak for Tim, but here's one way to think of it: The Namespace is the *abstraction* of the collection of XML names that happen to share the same URI part (the Platonic Ideal of the collection, if you will). I don't know if I actually agree with this; on the other hand, if we had waited to get the philosophy right before releasing Namespaces, we'd have been talking for years. Please don't complain that the W3C isn't ISO or the EU. We batted around a lot of ideas like this during the design process, but we were at least smart enough to realize that we weren't smart enough to do that much that fast. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 2 16:34:42 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > 1. Do we need a filter *interface* at all, or can a > filter just be a class that happens to implement This works very nicely. > 2. Actually, just last night I wrote an > org.xml.sax.helpers.FilterAdapter base class > I was thinking of including this class in the next > SAX2 pre-release, if people are interested; Can't hurt ... might help. -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 2 16:40:48 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: ANN: Building XML Applications Message-ID: <199906021441.KAA27635@hesketh.net> At long last, McGraw-Hill has shipped _Building XML Applications_, a book I co-authored with Ethan Cerami. The book focuses on XML and Java development using SAX, with some coverage of the DOM. For more information, see: http://www.simonstl.com/buildxml/index.html List price is $49.99 ($39.99); the ISBN is 0071341161. Amazon claims 24 hour shipment, but I haven't yet seen it in a regular bookstore. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 16:40:59 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14165.16862.577958.110731@localhost.localdomain> Miles Sabin writes: > > 2. Actually, just last night I wrote an > > org.xml.sax.helpers.FilterAdapter base class > > > I was thinking of including this class in the next > > SAX2 pre-release, if people are interested; > > Can't hurt ... might help. Actually it can hurt, a bit -- if we want to keep the SAX2 JAR file small enough for use on palmtops or over slow network connections, we have to treat it like the space shuttle, where every pound (or octet, in this case) counts. The question is whether filters are or will be common enough to justify including a base class in the SAX2 JAR. I'd guess that they are -- what do others think? Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 2 16:47:35 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > Miles Sabin writes: > > Can't hurt ... might help. > > Actually it can hurt, a bit -- if we want to keep the > SAX2 JAR file small enough for use on palmtops or over > slow network connections, we have to treat it like the > space shuttle, where every pound (or octet, in this > case) counts. That's not a problem. If there are no dependencies on the filter adapter from any other SAX class or interface (there wouldn't be) then it could be safely left out of any size critical deployment. There's any number of tools that do that sort of thing automagically. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed Jun 2 16:52:46 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <03ea01bead06$ab690c70$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Hunter, David wrote: > >Actually, anyone can prove almost ANY theological point by quoting >sections of the bible, just like anyone can prove almost any URI >point by quoting sections of the RFCs. The competent [Christian] >theologist, however, knows the bible cover to cover, and how those distinct >sections fit in with the whole, just like the competent URI... um... >"discusser" knows all of the RFCs, and how each section fit in with the >whole. > >Sorry, I wasn't able to relate this to tea leaves. Or to other >religions, for that matter. > So this analogy ought be cut off quickly lest we forget that we don't hire theologists to design bridges in 20th century civilization. The real argument here is whether a URI with the scheme "http" or "ftp" ought be used to define an XML namespace. The argument has led to discussion of whether such URIs are intended to serve as unique names aside from their intended purpose to serve as resource locators. The argument is twofold: First, using a particular definition of "resource", a name can be termed a locator for the "abstract resource" which is itself the name (or perhaps namespace). A distinction is made between this use of the term "resource" and the more common use in locating a "physical" resource such as a document located on a network. Second, the definition of URI, includes the concepts of URIs used as persistent names (e.g. "URN") as well as URIs used as resource locators (URL). The argument has arisen about whether URLs ought be used as XML namespace URIs and in particular whether the same URI can be used as a URL in one place and a persistent name (I won't call this a URN due to conflicts with 2141) in another (this would be some future as yet unspecified specs which build upon XML namespaces). I argue that per the URI specification (RFC2396) I see no reason why URIs which begin with particular schemes (e.g. "http") can or ought not be used as a persistent name. Aside from my reading and interpretation of RFC 2396, support for this position is in the XSL specification itself which uses URIs belonging to the "http" scheme to define the "xsl" namespace. In prior posts, I;ve asked for specific practical current problems that are created by using such URIs. The bottom line in bridge building (as opposed to theological arguments) is the fact that the bridge stands up to its specified weight for its specified lifespan. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed Jun 2 17:51:28 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: FW: Interpretation problems - perceived conflict between RFC 2141 and RFC 2396 Message-ID: Hi, I posted your message in the URN WG mailing list and here is the answer from one of the WG member. Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: Leslie Daigle [mailto:leslie@thinkingcat.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 9:30 AM To: martind@NETFOLDER.COM Cc: URN-IETF@LISTS.INTERNIC.NET Subject: Re: Interpretation problems - perceived conflict between RFC 2141 and RFC 2396 Howdy, Thanks for forwarding the questions. > *RFC 2141 states that the forward-slash (and other reserved) character > should not be used in unescaped form, as its "applicability" is (or was at > time of writing, 5/97) still open to debate. > > *RFC 2396, on the other hand, states that forward-slash (and other reserved) > character should not be used in unescaped form IF "the data...would conflict > with the reserved purpose". This seems to imply that it's ok to use "/" > unescaped if it denotes a hierarchical namespace. Actually, I read the words to the contrary. I read these words to say that unescaped "/" should be interpreted by the rules of hierarchy laid out in 2396, and any other expected interpretation requires the character to be escaped. 2396 defines a particular mechanism for interpreting and manipulating hierarchical structures of URIs -- denoted by the use of the forward slash. This includes the ability to make relative references, etc, that we were never able to reconcile with the notion of providing fixed, persistent references (URNs). Rather than try to effect changes to that interpretation of "/" in URIs, or subject URNs to all existing URI rules for handling that hierarchy, we decided to abstain from the use of the character. Note that this does not mean namespaces cannot use "/" to denote hierarchy -- if it is escaped, it can be used for hierarchy as it is understood local to a particular namespace (i.e., browsers and editors will not attempt to create or interpret relative URIs of them). > *RFC 2396 APPEARS to state that an "authority" must be preceded by > double-forward-slash. It is not totally clear to me whether this applies to > the NID component of a URN. Again, this is "authority" as it is defined by the URI syntax, subject to the particular interpretation as laid out in 2396. There are other URI schemes that do not have an authority component preceded by "//". > First of all, I would be interested in opinions as to the above statements. See above. > Secondly, I would be interested in opinions as to the advisability of going > ahead and using unencoded forward-slashes to denote hierarchy within a URN. Don't. :-> More seriously, look a little more closely at the problem, and I think you'll see the distinction we're trying to draw. > I need to denote such hierarchy, and it seems hard to believe that > forward-slash wouldn't be defined to denote such hierarchy. Thus encoding it > seems like a waste of time, effort, and an unnecessary loss of readability. a) don't forget that URNs are not primarily targetted at being human-readable b) is the hierarchy you are looking for really all the bells & whistles of relative URIs as found in 2369, in which case you may not be after a URN afterall. You may want the resolution mechanisms laid out in, for instance, the NAPTR RDS, but those are already described in generic terms as being applicable to all URIs, not just URNs. Leslie. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "My cat has all the answers. But she claims Leslie Daigle she doesn't know the questions." leslie@thinkingcat.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 2 18:05:30 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <14165.8743.130039.285638@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37555010.21BD9A81@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson wrote: > 1. Do we need a filter *interface* at all, or can a filter just be a > class that happens to implement Parser, Configurable, > EntityResolver, DTDHandler, DocumentHandler, and ErrorHandler? Actually, a parser filter only *has* to implement Parser. Whether it implements the other things, or delegates their implementation to private objects, is a detail. > (In > other words, is it enough to set the parent parser/filter in the > constructor?) IMHO yes. One could use reflection to determine whether there is such a constructor, at least in the Java domain. > 2. Actually, just last night I wrote an > org.xml.sax.helpers.FilterAdapter base class that filters can > easily be derived from (though they wouldn't have to be); by > default, it just lets all events sink down to the application, > and all configuration bubble up to the parser, but subclasses can > simply override methods to make changes in either direction. I suggest you look at my P.D. code at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ParserFilter.java; it would be easy to enhance it for SAX2, and it handles some subtle points. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed Jun 2 18:06:19 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <03ea01bead06$ab690c70$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: Hi, a) because a URI could be used to specify a XML name space, we can use either URLs and URNs because both are URIs. b) If we have some forward thinking on the subject, someday, this URI will points to a "place" containing the name space documentation. The ideal world is that the documentation contains both human readable and machine interpretable documents. c) If we choose to use a URL for a name space identifier, we create location dependency to our documents, If we choose URNs, the documents are then location independent. Again, with some forward thinking, the name space documentation may be moved to a registry or moved to several industry registry and still be retrievable (in the case of URNs). In the case of name space documentation referred with a URL, the links become broken if we move the documentation from one "place" to another. Also a some URL like the HTTP URLs points to a single location. A URN can point to several locations. d) like for URL, for human consumption and readability, URN could be written with "/" without encoding. However, the resolution mechanism will have to encode these delimiters before URN->URL transformation on a URN resolver (could be a DNS or any other kind of server like for instance LDAP). This is what is done with most modern browsers today. The user enters a URL containing spaces in the text box and each space gets encoded before the URL gets resolved into a resource on the HTTP server. Conclusion: URN brings more longevity to information elements contained in the published document. The URN can be resolved as long as a resolver has been created to resolve its particular name space (URN name space). In the case of URLs any documentation movement leads to a break of the links and the document is no longer linked to its documentation. Thus, in this case, the document has a shorter longevity (because we cannot retreive the document vocabulary rules and meanings). regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 2 18:05:38 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: SAX2 Queries (was Re: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java) References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <14165.15161.468164.927448@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37555333.164980EA@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson wrote: > Personally, I like , but I recall that John Cowan is partial to > ^ (caret). #&32; is fine with me too. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed Jun 2 18:56:51 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <045e01bead18$001c2f20$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Didier PH Martin wrote: > > >a) because a URI could be used to specify a XML name space, we can use >either URLs and URNs because both are URIs. >b) If we have some forward thinking on the subject, someday, this URI will >points to a "place" containing the name space documentation. The ideal world >is that the documentation contains both human readable and machine >interpretable documents. I agree that this would be a benefit of overloading the namespace URI. >c) If we choose to use a URL for a name space identifier, we create location >dependency to our documents, If we choose URNs, the documents are then >location independent. I have a quibble with this terminology. URLs need not be location dependent. This is a function of the URL scheme or namespace. For example suppose we invent a new location independent protocol (LIP): "lip:W3C/Specifications/XSLT/Version1.0" or: "FPI: ...." This would be a location independent URL. The idea remains that URLs are URIs used to "locate" resources. If you overload the "urn" scheme with a network protocol, it really becomes a URL regardless of its definition in 2141. > >Conclusion: >URN brings more longevity to information elements contained in the published >document. The URN can be resolved as long as a resolver has been created to >resolve its particular name space (URN name space). In the case of URLs any >documentation movement leads to a break of the links and the document is no >longer linked to its documentation. Thus, in this case, the document has a >shorter longevity (because we cannot retreive the document vocabulary rules >and meanings). > Really what you are suggesting is a location independent URL. I agree this is a good idea. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ksievers at novell.com Wed Jun 2 19:02:32 1999 From: ksievers at novell.com (Kent Sievers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:43 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Message-ID: Although I have listened to this list for many months, I almost never post anything. Three points: 1) If this is all about giving name spaces a unique name/ID in order to avoid collisions, then there are dozens of ways of generating unique names (I assume that nobody wants to be a registry). For example, you could write a program for the PC that would grab the machines processor ID, combine it with the time stamp and convert it to base 64 and come up with a 16 digit ID that could not be produced by any other PC at any other point in time. If that wasn't human readable enough then you could add your own descriptive text and still come in shorter than many URLs. You would only need access to a PC one time in the lifetime of the name space - to generate the ID/Name that you would use. This is just an example. My point is that if you think about it for very long at all, there are lots of ways of guaranteeing uniqueness, even in a distributed fashion. Especially if you are willing to live with "unique enough." Some other examples: use the hit count on a special web site; have a "grab a tag" type web site that allows visitors to generate unique tags; use one of the global LDAP servers to guarantee a unique E-Mail address; have everyone open an account at the same bank and use their account numbers; use a U.S. patent number (just kidding); etc. etc. etc. 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? If I can assume that the people I exchange documents with don't have a malicious intent, then what are the odds that if I use "mynamespace.myproject.Novell.com" that I will ever see any problems? Nil! And if they are intending to collide with me, then what recourse would I have anyway? As a side note, it seams like the harder problem is trying to actually collide and share an element. For example: my document has a "subject" while yours has a "topic." Do we have to generate large mappings in order to communicate with lots of different systems? 3) When it comes to global identifiers, it seems to me that there are always two distinct parts: a) the objects name/ID that uniquely identifies it, and b) the objects last known, or probable location. My mail messages, for example, have unique IDs, but they only help me find the message by including addition location information on where to look for it (which message store). The advantage of this type of scheme is: a) I can still uniquely identify it no matter where it is moved, and b) if it is moved, there may be some hope of searching for it and updating it's location. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 2 19:20:21 1999 From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... References: Message-ID: <002401bead1c$6ccb39a0$c5010180@p197> I do not follow this list anymore due to time etc, but this post caught my eye. I assume DCE UUIDs/MS GUIDs have been considered ? ----- Original Message ----- From: Kent Sievers To: Sent: 2 June 1999 18:01 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Although I have listened to this list for many months, I almost never post anything. Three points: 1) If this is all about giving name spaces a unique name/ID in order to avoid collisions, then there are dozens of ways of generating unique names (I assume that nobody wants to be a registry). For example, you could write a program for the PC that would grab the machines processor ID, combine it with the time stamp and convert it to base 64 and come up with a 16 digit ID that could not be produced by any other PC at any other point in time. If that wasn't human readable enough then you could add your own descriptive text and still come in shorter than many URLs. You would only need access to a PC one time in the lifetime of the name space - to generate the ID/Name that you would use. This is just an example. My point is that if you think about it for very long at all, there are lots of ways of guaranteeing uniqueness, even in a distributed fashion. Especially if you are willing to live with "unique enough." Some other examples: use the hit count on a special web site; have a "grab a tag" type web site that allows visitors to generate unique tags; use one of the global LDAP servers to guarantee a unique E-Mail address; have everyone open an account at the same bank and use their account numbers; use a U.S. patent number (just kidding); etc. etc. etc. 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? If I can assume that the people I exchange documents with don't have a malicious intent, then what are the odds that if I use "mynamespace.myproject.Novell.com" that I will ever see any problems? Nil! And if they are intending to collide with me, then what recourse would I have anyway? As a side note, it seams like the harder problem is trying to actually collide and share an element. For example: my document has a "subject" while yours has a "topic." Do we have to generate large mappings in order to communicate with lots of different systems? 3) When it comes to global identifiers, it seems to me that there are always two distinct parts: a) the objects name/ID that uniquely identifies it, and b) the objects last known, or probable location. My mail messages, for example, have unique IDs, but they only help me find the message by including addition location information on where to look for it (which message store). The advantage of this type of scheme is: a) I can still uniquely identify it no matter where it is moved, and b) if it is moved, there may be some hope of searching for it and updating it's location. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed Jun 2 19:39:09 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <045e01bead18$001c2f20$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, Jonathan said: I have a quibble with this terminology. URLs need not be location dependent. This is a function of the URL scheme or namespace. For example suppose we invent a new location independent protocol (LIP): "lip:W3C/Specifications/XSLT/Version1.0" or: "FPI: ...." This would be a location independent URL. The idea remains that URLs are URIs used to "locate" resources. If you overload the "urn" scheme with a network protocol, it really becomes a URL regardless of its definition in 2141. Didier says: There is a project called PURL (permanent URL) that uses URL to create permanent names. However, if we overload locators (URL) to do everything even the morning coffee, we'll have some confusion. Its like have a single word to designate everything. This is why we created URN. To distinguish names (URN) form locators (URL). YOu are right to say that on some browser, we can implement a name resolver as a protocol handler. But this is caused by these browsers architecture not by the URN scheme being perceived as a URL. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Wed Jun 2 20:33:00 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001bead26$921a1d20$3296fea9@w21tp> > Andrew Douglas wrote, > > The standard I've got states that a DocumentFragment is > > a Node (or at least, it does in the Java headers I've > > got). That was my mistake, I think. > > No mistake. A DocumentFragment *is* a Node. But if you > try and insert it into the tree, you'll find that a > conforming implementation will throw a > HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR. Actually, inserting a DocumentFragment 'node' into a tree should insert the child nodes of the DocumentFragment (leaving it empty). HERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR exception should be thrown only if any of the child nodes can not be inserted. State of the tree after partially sucessful DocumentFragment insertion is unspecified in the spec. My implementation revokes the entire operation leaving the tree and the DocumentFragment unchanged. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 21:06:46 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14165.32954.596890.457@localhost.localdomain> Kent Sievers writes: > 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't > I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? Not really, especially if you count HTTP transactions as "exchanging data", and in the future, I expect that things will get even more complicated: e-commerce, in particular, pretty much requires an ability for blind information exchange. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed Jun 2 21:08:36 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <049e01bead2a$591d59c0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Didier PH Martin wrote: > >Didier says: >There is a project called PURL (permanent URL) that uses URL to create >permanent names. However, if we overload locators (URL) to do everything >even the morning coffee, we'll have some confusion. Its like have a single >word to designate everything. This is why we created URN. To distinguish >names (URN) form locators (URL). YOu are right to say that on some browser, >we can implement a name resolver as a protocol handler. But this is caused >by these browsers architecture not by the URN scheme being perceived as a >URL. > Let me get this straight .... *you are* suggesting a mechanism to allow resolution of "urn:...." into a resource, no? Isn't a URI which locates resources a URL (by definition) regardless of the scheme? You are suggesting using the "urn" scheme to locate resources, correct? using some extension to DNS, correct? This is a protocol, no? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 2 22:06:35 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: SAX Filters (was Re: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java) In-Reply-To: <37555010.21BD9A81@locke.ccil.org> References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <14165.8743.130039.285638@localhost.localdomain> <37555010.21BD9A81@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14165.36517.8304.868228@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > I suggest you look at my P.D. code at > http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/ParserFilter.java; it would be easy > to enhance it for SAX2, and it handles some subtle points. ccil.org doesn't seem to be responding right now -- I will be happy to do a code merge, but in the meantime, I think that a brief list of some of the subtleties that John's class handles would be very appropriate for an XML developers' list (the list doesn't have to come from John). Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed Jun 2 22:40:14 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <049e01bead2a$591d59c0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: Hi JOnathan, Jonathan said: Let me get this straight .... *you are* suggesting a mechanism to allow resolution of "urn:...." into a resource, no? Isn't a URI which locates resources a URL (by definition) regardless of the scheme? You are suggesting using the "urn" scheme to locate resources, correct? using some extension to DNS, correct? This is a protocol, no? Didier says: I do not suggest anything. URN have been created to allow some permanency to resource identity. IN the WG we discussed lengthily about the fact that location independence leads to permanency. It is explicitly stated in specs and drafts that URNs could be resolved into one or more URL with a name resolver. Ron, presented a name resolver based on DNS. The spec do not restrict the name resolution to solely DNS servers. You can create your own name resolver or use one like for instance LDAP. URN is not a protocol. However, because some browsers recognize the first string before the ":" as a protocol. On these kind of browsers you can implement a URN name resolver by implementing a protocol handler. Actually, two browser have this characteristic: Mozilla, IE (I don't know for others). But, it is only an implemention trick because a URN is not a protocol. Thus, on Mozilla or IE, we can create a LDAP based URN name resolver implemented as a protocol handler for the protocol "urn" (But urn is not a protocol - this is only an implementation trick). But one fact remains, URN where created to be resolved into one or more URLs and the URLs used to be resolved into resources. URLs have the implicit transport mechanism or protocol indicated by their scheme (off course we can give other meaning to scheme or protocol identifier). URN do not have the protocol or transport mechanism in encoded in it. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu Jun 3 02:30:03 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. In-Reply-To: <99060309182300.19989@ripe> Message-ID: <000001bead58$8072ff60$3296fea9@w21tp> > really? > In, w3c's document, the following statements appear. > - this results in all the child nodes of the DocumentFragment being > moved to the child list of this node. > Umm, above "moved" word means what? > copy-and-paste or cut-and-paste? Cut and paste. > The class that I had developed in java has DocumentFragment Object, > and this class's publish() method insert this DocumentFragment into > root Document's any Node. after invoking publish() method, > is it correct this class's DocumentFragment member has no child nodes? > or not. The only purpose of having DocumentFragment in the DOM API is to have children for adoption via insertChild/appendNode. It is just a placeholder for nodes which are 'owned' by a Document but not yet part of the Document tree. > If the original node's of DocumentFragment remained in > DocumentFragment > object, I can change the DocumentFragment's childnode's. huh? They are moved, cut-and-pasted, out of the DocumentFragment and into the target node. > How Current well-known DOM implementaions handles it? > especially OpenXML? *shrug* Best, Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Thu Jun 3 02:16:07 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: Hi all, Anyone know why the IE5 parser is telling me that the 'xmlns' attribute defined on the HTML element "should be #FIXED", when I try to use any of the DTDs for XHTML? I'd rather not remove !DOCTYPE from the top of my XHTML documents if I can avoid it, but I can't apply XSL to the documents with it in! Any comments? Is IE5 at fault, or is it true that xmlns should be #FIXED, and so the DTDs are incorrect? Regards, Mark Mark Birbeck Managing Director IED Ltd. 220 Bon March? Centre 442-444 Brixton Road London SW9 8EJ w: http://www.iedigital.net/ t: +44 (171) 501 9502 e: Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abird at seedvr.com Thu Jun 3 02:17:43 1999 From: abird at seedvr.com (Kihyun Yoon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. References: <000001bead26$921a1d20$3296fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <99060309182300.19989@ripe> Thu, 03 Jun 1999=BF=A1, Don Park =C0=DB=BC=BA=C7=D1 =B1=DB: >> Andrew Douglas wrote, >> > The standard I've got states that a DocumentFragment is >> > a Node (or at least, it does in the Java headers I've >> > got). That was my mistake, I think. >> >> No mistake. A DocumentFragment *is* a Node. But if you >> try and insert it into the tree, you'll find that a >> conforming implementation will throw a >> HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR. > >Actually, inserting a DocumentFragment 'node' into a tree should insert = the >child nodes of the DocumentFragment (leaving it empty). > >HERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR exception should be thrown only if any of the child >nodes can not be inserted. State of the tree after partially sucessful >DocumentFragment insertion is unspecified in the spec. My implementatio= n >revokes the entire operation leaving the tree and the DocumentFragment >unchanged. really? In, w3c's document, the following statements appear. - this results in all the child nodes of the DocumentFragment being moved to the child list of this node. Umm, above "moved" word means what? copy-and-paste or cut-and-paste? The class that I had developed in java has DocumentFragment Object, and this class's publish() method insert this DocumentFragment into=20 root Document's any Node. after invoking publish() method,=20 is it correct this class's DocumentFragment member has no child nodes? or not. If the original node's of DocumentFragment remained in DocumentFragment object, I can change the DocumentFragment's childnode's. How Current well-known DOM implementaions handles it? especially OpenXML? Best, Kihyun Yoon. -- "For the Peace of Hanul, Saram and Ttang." Ki-hyun Yoon, The Tech. Development Devision Director of Seed Virtual Systems Inc. Phone : +82-2-3461-0413 Fax : +82-2-3461-0412 Email : abird@seedvr.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Jun 3 09:36:24 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: <14165.8743.130039.285638@localhost.localdomain> References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <14165.8743.130039.285638@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: * David Megginson | | 1. Do we need a filter *interface* at all, or can a filter just be a | class that happens to implement Parser, Configurable, | EntityResolver, DTDHandler, DocumentHandler, and ErrorHandler? (In | other words, is it enough to set the parent parser/filter in the | constructor?) I'm more concerned with interoperability than ease of development, really, and a main point is that assemblies of filters should be easy to put together. The trouble with the above is that once the filter is instantiated its position in the assembly is fixed. So I am not satisfied with just setting the event source in the constructor. Another thing is the business with delegation that John mentioned. This monster interface could be reduced somewhat by replacing an interface with a corresponding getInterface method on the filter, returning either the private object or the filter itself. Or we could just reason that the clients of the filter don't need access to its handlers, and do this: public interface Filter extends Parser { public Parser getEventSource(); public void setEventSource(Parser eventSource); public Configurable getConfigurable(); } This ensures that filters can be moved around in the assembly and that they can support configuration if they so wish (and return null if they don't). It also makes it much clearer from the interface what a filter is and does and enables the hiding of the handler implementation(s). As for FilterAdapter (or FilterBase), it could either do what you proposed that filter do above, or be split into an implementation of filter that uses a near cousin of HandlerBase called Propagator or some such. | [org.xml.sax.helpers.FilterAdapter] | | I was thinking of including this class in the next SAX2 | pre-release, if people are interested; I can also distribute it | separately in the mean time. I am definitely interested in seeing it now. And like David I would also like to see John's list of subtle points. For those interested in prior art, Bill la Forge's MDSAX is also very much worth a look: I see that his MDFilters are interfaces that extend Parser, DocumentHandler, DTDHandler, EntityResolver and ErrorHandler, and add a setParser method. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DanekerV at visa.com Thu Jun 3 11:02:28 1999 From: DanekerV at visa.com (Daneker, Vincent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:44 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Message-ID: <9B4A09772123D211B61B000629B1B966019F301F@sw620x025> I can see that collisions may occur if attempting to piece together a document (archive) from other documents (archives), each potentially using the same tags for different purposes. There seem to ways to avoid the difficulties. One way would be to continue to use a commonly agreed format for general consumption. Today XML -> HTML is used to allow general access. This doesn't really allow people to use XML to its full potential. So, the development of XML aware applications seems to be a logical step. Currently, IE5 can display raw XML, which isn't particularly appealing, but it can be done. Will Excel or Access in Office 2000 (or tools by any other company, MS is just an example, please don't flame me) allow direct and sensible import of an XML file into their formats? In this case well-formedness is more important than specific tag sets and while the latter can cause trouble it should be relatively easy to overcome. At the very least any puzzling entries it would highlight the difficulties we're speaking about. The blind exchange of data in e-commerce could open a can of worms. However, if I'm engaged in a commercial venture, then I'm going to ensure that you, our valued customer, have everything you need from us to complete your transaction. This means that I'd include something like the element and have that indicate an existing resource that would give the DTD and another for a style sheet. The assumption here is that your connection to us will understand all of that. Hopefully, the XML aware applications will do so. Finally, if engaged in direct EDI, then the partners would either have to be working to a pre-existing standard (not to open that debate again :-)) or would have to agree to one so that the EDI would work. Here is where namespaces would be useful. Alternatively, the partners could come up with their own new set of elements and DTD and map their marked-up information to the new set. I'd suggest that communities of common interest will work out some modus vivendi that may indeed be a namespace. I certainly hope that I haven't completely misunderstood the debate. Please, let me know if I have. regards, Vincent P.S. this is being sent from outlook. It should go out as text/plain, if, however, it arrives as one of those stupid little envelope attachments, please let me know and I'll fix it. Thanks. > -----Original Message----- > From: David Megginson [SMTP:david@megginson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 8:08 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... > > Kent Sievers writes: > > > 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't > > I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? > > Not really, especially if you count HTTP transactions as "exchanging > data", and in the future, I expect that things will get even more > complicated: e-commerce, in particular, pretty much requires an > ability for blind information exchange. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Thu Jun 3 11:53:23 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: DOM, SAX and Events Message-ID: <000401beada7$27c33200$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Hi, I'm currently using a SAX parser to parse an XML script which drives some application processing. I used SAX as it gave a nice fit with the Java event system. I've layered a lightweight application specific event system on top of SAX so those details are hidden from the application itself. This all works very nicely and is nothing new. However I now realise that I may need to repeat parts of the script, i.e. run a particular section multiple times before continuing. I can't simply copy and paste parts of the XML doc as I don't know a priori how many repetitions are required. I also can't revisit that part of the document because the SAX parser doesn't allow this. So, I'm going to move to a DOM representation and do a tree-walk instead. I can then revisit subtrees whenever required. This should be no problem to implement, but leads me to wonder whether other people have met this same problem, and if so whether it'd be useful to have an event driven interface to the DOM? Basically the interface just involves tree-walking and determining the types of nodes and generating the correct callbacks similar to SAX, albeit at a slightly higher level. Is this something others have encountered? Is it an already solved problem and I've missed something? Cheers, L. ================================================================== "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less" ---William of Occam ================================================================== Leigh Dodds Eml: ldodds@ingenta.com ingenta ltd Tel: +44 1225 826619 BUCS Building, University of Bath Fax: +44 1225 826283 ================================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bd at internet-etc.com Thu Jun 3 12:06:38 1999 From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501beada8$88283540$a183bc3e@p300> I think IE5 is correct. I saw the same problem with some DTD's from W3C. My understanding is that #FIXED should preceed a specific value described in chars. Isn't that what a xmlns always contains? Brandt Dainow bd@internet-etc.com Internet Etc Ltd http://www.internet-etc.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On >Behalf Of >Mark Birbeck >Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 1:21 AM >To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' >Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 > > >Hi all, > >Anyone know why the IE5 parser is telling me that the 'xmlns' attribute >defined on the HTML element "should be #FIXED", when I try to >use any of >the DTDs for XHTML? I'd rather not remove !DOCTYPE from the top of my >XHTML documents if I can avoid it, but I can't apply XSL to the >documents with it in! > >Any comments? Is IE5 at fault, or is it true that xmlns should be >#FIXED, and so the DTDs are incorrect? > >Regards, > >Mark > > > >Mark Birbeck >Managing Director >IED Ltd. >220 Bon March? Centre >442-444 Brixton Road >London >SW9 8EJ >w: http://www.iedigital.net/ >t: +44 (171) 501 9502 >e: Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Thu Jun 3 12:21:56 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: DOM, SAX and Events Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEC0@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > So, I'm going to move to a DOM representation and do a tree-walk > instead. I can then revisit subtrees whenever required. > This should be no problem to implement, but leads me to wonder > whether other people have met this same problem, and if > so whether it'd be useful to have an event driven interface to > the DOM? Absolutely. This was exactly the problem I was trying to solve when I started development of SAXON. Take a look at it, it's on http://home.iclweb.com/icl2/mhkay/saxon.html Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu Jun 3 14:20:20 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: DOM, SAX and Events References: <000401beada7$27c33200$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <002301beadbb$30b4d6c0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > So, I'm going to move to a DOM representation and do a tree-walk > instead. I can then revisit subtrees whenever required. > This should be no problem to implement, but leads me to wonder > whether other people have met this same problem, and if > so whether it'd be useful to have an event driven interface to > the DOM? I recently adopted this strategry for FOP (http://www.jtauber.com/fop/) so that it can take a formatting object tree as a DOM Document as well as an XML document. Rather stupidly, the SAX DocumentHandler, FOTreeBuilder, then goes an builds a tree again, but this was the quickest way to get DOM support (which people were asking for). (As an aside: because XT allows you to specify a SAX DocumentHandler to do output, it will be easy for me to attached XT and FOP together---stay tuned for version 0.6.3) JamesT Here's my code (largely pinched from John Cowan, whose version of this is more comprehensive :-) package com.jtauber.fop.apps; // FOP import com.jtauber.fop.fo.FOTreeBuilder; // DOM import org.w3c.dom.Document; import org.w3c.dom.Node; import org.w3c.dom.NamedNodeMap; import org.w3c.dom.Attr; // SAX import org.xml.sax.SAXException; import org.xml.sax.helpers.AttributeListImpl; // Java import java.io.PrintWriter; /** * A FOProcessor that takes a DOM Document, walks the tree, firing events as if a SAX parser * * Instantiate this class with a DOM Document and then run the format method with a PrintWriter the PDF is to be given to * * based on John Cowan's work */ public class DOMProcessor extends FOProcessor { private Document document; // the DOM document /** * create a DOM-driven FOProcessor with the given DOM Document */ public DOMProcessor(Document document) { super(); // set up the FOProcessor this.document = document; } /** * Format the document to PDF on the given PrintWriter * * Most of the ideas in this method come from John Cowan */ public void format(PrintWriter writer) throws FOPException { Node currentNode; AttributeListImpl currentAtts; char[] array = null; // temporary array for making Strings into character arrays currentAtts = new AttributeListImpl(); currentNode = this.document; // start at the document element try { while (currentNode != null) { switch (currentNode.getNodeType()) { case Node.DOCUMENT_NODE: this.treeBuilder.startDocument(); break; case Node.CDATA_SECTION_NODE: case Node.TEXT_NODE: String data = currentNode.getNodeValue(); int datalen = data.length(); if (array == null || array.length < datalen) // if the array isn't big enough array = new char[datalen]; // make a new one data.getChars(0, datalen, array, 0); this.treeBuilder.characters(array, 0, datalen); break; case Node.PROCESSING_INSTRUCTION_NODE: this.treeBuilder.processingInstruction(currentNode.getNodeName(),currentNode .getNodeValue()); break; case Node.ELEMENT_NODE: NamedNodeMap map = currentNode.getAttributes(); currentAtts.clear(); for (int i = map.getLength() - 1; i >= 0; i--) { Attr att = (Attr)(map.item(i)); currentAtts.addAttribute(att.getName(), "CDATA", att.getValue()); } this.treeBuilder.startElement(currentNode.getNodeName(), currentAtts); break; } Node nextNode = currentNode.getFirstChild(); if (nextNode != null) { currentNode = nextNode; continue; } while (currentNode != null) { switch (currentNode.getNodeType()) { case Node.DOCUMENT_NODE: this.treeBuilder.endDocument(); break; case Node.ELEMENT_NODE: this.treeBuilder.endElement(currentNode.getNodeName()); break; } nextNode = currentNode.getNextSibling(); if (nextNode != null) { currentNode = nextNode; break; } currentNode = currentNode.getParentNode(); } } } catch (SAXException e) { throw new FOPException(e.getMessage()); } layoutput(writer); } } xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mirja.hukari at citec.fi Thu Jun 3 14:52:48 1999 From: mirja.hukari at citec.fi (Mirja Hukari) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux Message-ID: <37567AC8.E48F7A00@citec.fi> First SGML and XML browser on Linux, DocZilla ============================================= CiTEC is proud to announce the first XML and SGML browser on Linux, DocZilla. DocZilla Alpha 2 runs on WinNT/95/98 and Linux. The Linux DocZilla Alpha comes with the Linux HOWTO's (technical documentation created using the LinuxDoc DTD) rendered directly from the original SGML format. The DocZilla XML/SGML Module Alpha 2 extends Mozilla Web technology with enhanced XML support, SGML, HyTime links, CGM graphics, CALS tables, and additional features from CSS2. The DocZilla XML/SGML Module will be a dynamically registered add-on component to the Netscape Gecko browser when it is released. The XML/SGML Module Alpha 2 is now available as a standalone application built with the Mozilla source code with the full web browser capabilities. The XML/SGML Module is the first offering from CiTEC of components for advanced Web publishing. Our next components will include: XML search, publishing tools, and document fragment delivery. The XML/SGML Module Alpha 2 comes with a Demo Kit with many excellent demonstrations of the use of SGML, XML, CSS, DOM, JavaScript, CGM and more with DocZilla. These demos are set up to be viewed with point-and-click simplicity. Visit DocZilla Web page at http://www.doczilla.com for DocZilla Alpha 2 download information. Best regards, Miss DocZilla -- Mirja Hukari tel. +358-6-3240 723 Citec Information Technology fax. +358-6-3240 800 Silmukkatie 2 email. mhu@citec.fi 65100 Vaasa URL: http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu Jun 3 15:17:15 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux References: <37567AC8.E48F7A00@citec.fi> Message-ID: <003501beadc3$334a7c20$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> I guess it would be trolling to ask if XSL support is planned. (Sorry, I couldn't resist :-) James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Jun 3 15:53:53 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: DOM, SAX and Events In-Reply-To: <000401beada7$27c33200$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> References: <000401beada7$27c33200$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: * Leigh Dodds | | So, I'm going to move to a DOM representation and do a tree-walk | instead. I can then revisit subtrees whenever required. This should | be no problem to implement, but leads me to wonder whether other | people have met this same problem, and if so whether it'd be useful | to have an event driven interface to the DOM? John Cowan has a DOMParser that walks a DOM tree and fires SAX events at Also, one strategy I've used in cases where the area that needs to be repeated is very small is to simply record the SAX events in a vector and do a sort of playback. (Used this to implement a general SAX DocumentHandler that chooses between several different DocumentHandlers based on the name of the document element.) --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Thu Jun 3 15:59:48 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: <37567AC8.E48F7A00@citec.fi> Message-ID: I notice that DocZilla is not free. May I then assume that it doesn't use any Mozilla code? +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu Jun 3 16:02:20 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: Mark Birbeck's message of Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:21:04 +0100 Message-ID: <199906031404.PAA02679@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > Any comments? Is IE5 at fault, or is it true that xmlns should be > #FIXED, and so the DTDs are incorrect? The Namespaces recommendation does not require it; Microsoft have decided that it does not make sense to allow a declared element type to be used to refer to elements in different namespaces, and they enforce this by requiring xmlns attributes to be declared as #FIXED. Furthermore, they do not allow you to declare prefixed element types or attributes unless you also declare an xmlns attribute for the prefix. This is also not in the standard. Andrew Layman posted a message about this a couple of weeks ago; it's archived as http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1999/0394.html He points out: if you want to use the DTD to validate an instance, you must use exactly the same prefixes in the instance as were used in the DTD. This is true, but it doesn't seem to me to be a good reason to reject namespace-conformant documents. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 3 16:31:30 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: References: <37567AC8.E48F7A00@citec.fi> Message-ID: <14166.37316.938922.20789@localhost.localdomain> Elliotte Rusty Harold writes: > I notice that DocZilla is not free. May I then assume that it > doesn't use any Mozilla code? I'll have to reread the Mozilla Public License, but I don't think that there's anything to prevent a closed-source, commercial product from embedded Mozilla, as long as any changes to the Mozilla code itself are made public. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu Jun 3 16:34:39 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Eliotte You said I notice that DocZilla is not free. May I then assume that it doesn't use any Mozilla code? Didier says: Contrary to that - it uses Mozilla code. Do you say that because of the Mozilla licence? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Thu Jun 3 17:00:56 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: <14166.37316.938922.20789@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <003301beadd1$f7505640$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > I'll have to reread the Mozilla Public License, but I don't think that > there's anything to prevent a closed-source, commercial product from > embedded Mozilla, as long as any changes to the Mozilla code itself > are made public. Actually not "public public". The license says you must make Modifications available in source form to the users of your product. One common misunderstanding about the NPL is that you should give the source back to Netscape. That is not true (unless NS happens to use your product). Because you are only required to make Modifications available you can hide the bulk of your code in modules you do not need to disclose. You will just need simple hooks in the mainline code. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Thu Jun 3 19:20:19 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF659@RED-MSG-08> Richard Tobin in http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jun-1999/0185.html cites my earlier message http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1999/0394.html describing the fairly restrictive rules that the IE5 MSXML parser enforces for use of namespaces and DTDs. I want to emphasize that my earlier message was intended to clarify what the actual behavior of MSXML is, not to describe what the best behavior should be. In this list and in others, there have been strong and conflicting opinions expressed on what would be the best behavior of a parser, and no settled standard exists. I believe that people will continue to post opinions on what a parser should do. I do not, in fact, know that the IE5 rules are the ultimately best rules; what we can say in their favor is that because they are conservative, they do not encourage the creation of documents that are accepted by MSXML and yet are later rejected by conformant parsers after standards have been worked out. As we are gaining experience with namespaces, this seems a prudent course. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ngill at eecs.uic.edu Thu Jun 3 19:39:09 1999 From: ngill at eecs.uic.edu (Navreena Gill) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: & in the element Message-ID: Hello List, Is it not possible to have & in the node value of an element like the one: AT&T My corresponding dtd has data defined as While parsing it using SUN parser gives me error: Illegal character or entity reference syntax. I do need to have & in the value for lots of elements. Can any one suggest me some alternative. I cannot change the xmls, since these are generated by some other application. I can only modify dtd. I would appreicate some help. Thanks a lot in advance. Navreena xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 3 20:01:12 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux References: <37567AC8.E48F7A00@citec.fi> <14166.37316.938922.20789@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3756C306.EC24A9FB@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson wrote: > I don't think that > there's anything to prevent a closed-source, commercial product from > embedded Mozilla, as long as any changes to the Mozilla code itself > are made public. That is exactly what distinguishes the MPL from the BSD/MIT/etc. license on the one hand ("do as thou wilt") and from the GPL on the other ("all derivative works must be GPLed too"). Netscape Communicator 5, if and when it appears, will be the main such product, of course, but others can be made. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Thu Jun 3 20:05:17 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:45 2004 Subject: & in the element Message-ID: <01BEADCA.BF6949A0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Navreena wrote: "Is it not possible to have & in the node value of an element like the one: AT&T" Navreena, Each occurrence of "&" in the application data must be encoded as "&" in the XML file. For example, AT&T Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Orr at Design-Intelligence.com Thu Jun 3 20:11:28 1999 From: Michael.Orr at Design-Intelligence.com (Michael.Orr@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F1797@master.design-intelligence.com> > From: Mirja Hukari [mailto:mirja.hukari@citec.fi] > Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux Your announcement is specifically addressed to 95/98 users as well as NT/Linux, but the installer pops up an *extremely* strongly worded warning to the effect that it would be extremely foolish to go ahead with the install on 95/98. What's your recommendation for us 95/98 users? Thanks, Mike ---------------------------------------- Michael Orr, CTO, VP R&D Design Intelligence Inc, Seattle WA USA http://www.design-intelligence.com phone:206-718-2103 fax:206-343-7750 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at chage.com Thu Jun 3 20:16:17 1999 From: carl at chage.com (Carl Hage) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... In-Reply-To: <9B4A09772123D211B61B000629B1B966019F301F@sw620x025> Message-ID: <199906031818.NAA19820@rgate2.ricochet.net> From: "Daneker, Vincent" > So, the development of XML aware applications seems to be a logical step. > Currently, IE5 can display raw XML, which isn't particularly appealing, > but it can be done. Will Excel or Access in Office 2000 (or tools by any > other company, MS is just an example, please don't flame me) allow direct > and sensible import of an XML file into their formats? Thanks for bringing things back to reality-- that's the whole point of XML (it's not really a scheme to force purchase of upgrades). Besides general office software, sensible import into applications like Quicken will also be important. In order for import to be sensible, the application software needs to be able to interpret the format and semantics (to a certain degree) for each tag read. That means the application needs to get more information than just the syntax of the DTD. The URI's referenced in the XML headers and DTD are a natural way for applications to access the information needed for a sensible import, and as a sensible means for humans to access the documentation about the data. After you load an XML file into a spreadsheet, database, or XSL transformed data entry form, you want the "Help" button to work properly and directly show the definition of that data. You don't want to write to Geneva and buy a $900 document, or track down a programmer to find the meaning of a field. > The blind exchange of data in e-commerce could open a can of worms. > However, if I'm engaged in a commercial venture, then I'm going to ensure > that you, our valued customer, have everything you need from us to > complete your transaction. Unfortunately, that's not the norm. Missing or ambiguous documentation and missing code values is quite common. For every vendor or customer, the software is modified since the "standards" aren't really standards. Data exchange these days is often in fixed length files (it's hard to get mainframe programmers to create tab-delimited), where the postal- mailed data file is accompanied by a paper containing the documentation-- a list of abbreviated field names with columns. You retype all the columns into a computer (or scan and OCR the paper, then write a perl program to extract the record format). In about 40% of the cases, the documentation has errors. When you don't understand the field name semantics, you call the owner of the data, and often, they have no idea either. XML could be a continuation of the nightmare, since it allows any writer of data to invent a new DTD. Data should be written so it can be imported (not just exported), meaning it must be transformed into some agreed upon standard which can be interpreted. XML today is incrementally better than the usual fixed-length flat file with faxed record format in that it at least has an electronic definition of the syntax of the data. In my opinion XML won't be significant until all data that exists has associated electronic definitions of the semantics as well as syntax. Style sheets that print the data are incomplete-- there needs to be style sheets to print the documentation of the data as well, e.g. so the context sensitive help in a data entry form functions properly. Likewise, if I type a value into a form from a controlled vocabulary, e.g. "California" or "CA", the spreadsheet or browser should be able to access the CV definitions to validate that entry, without having to create/modify software, download some Java (that works in only 1 application), etc. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl Hage C. Hage Associates Voice/Fax: 1-408-244-8410 1180 Reed Ave #51 Sunnyvale, CA 94086 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Thu Jun 3 20:23:52 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: & in the element Message-ID: <01BEADCD.52771770@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Navreena, I forgot to mention: Each "<" in the application data must be encoded as "<" in the XML. For example, 4 < 5 and 6 > 5 You can also use a CDATA section for text that contains "&" or "<" characters. For example: Note that if any of your attribute values contain "&" or "<" characters, then they have to be encoded as well. For example, ... Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.S.Brothers at EMCIns.Com Thu Jun 3 20:23:03 1999 From: Michael.S.Brothers at EMCIns.Com (Michael S. Brothers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... In-Reply-To: <14165.32954.596890.457@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:08:29 -0400 (EDT) David Megginson wrote: > Kent Sievers writes: > > > 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't > > I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? > David Megginson reply: > Not really, especially if you count HTTP transactions as "exchanging > data", and in the future, I expect that things will get even more > complicated: e-commerce, in particular, pretty much requires an > ability for blind information exchange. > This being where an industry-wide standards organization fills the void and develops the elements, attributes, etc., for all entities doing business in that industry. If such DTD's (x-schema's, whatever) are in place, communication within the industry would be seamless. The complication arises when trying to exchange data outside the industry. That's why I fall into the camp of having the namespace designator actually point to a document that is retrievable and explains the data being sent. Take Care, ---------------------- Michael S. Brothers Michael.S.Brothers@EMCIns.com 515-362-7473 At this point, I don't think that's the best option. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 3 20:31:48 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: & in the element References: Message-ID: <3756CA77.68DD0F66@locke.ccil.org> Navreena Gill wrote: > Is it not possible to have & in the node value of an element like the > one: > AT&T > My corresponding dtd has data defined as > > > While parsing it using SUN parser gives me error: > Illegal character or entity reference syntax. > I do need to have & in the value for lots of elements. Can any one suggest > me some alternative. I cannot change the xmls, since these are generated > by some other application The other application is in error, and is simply not generating XML at all. Complain upstream; no amount of DTD-fiddling will help you. It should be generating "AT&T". Alternatively, insert a filtering process just before your input that maps every "&" to "&". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Thu Jun 3 20:39:27 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: Brandt Dainow wrote: > I think IE5 is correct. I saw the same problem with some > DTD's from W3C. > My understanding is that #FIXED should preceed a specific > value described in > chars. Isn't that what a xmlns always contains? I think I agree, Brandt. However, the DTDs for XHTML simply have xmlns as a URI that is required, but only say what that namespace is in the comments. Nowhere is it actually 'defined'. It's annoying because if I remove the DOCTYPE declaration to get past the parser, then I lose the ability to use ' ' and such-like. Thanks for your reply, Mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ngill at eecs.uic.edu Thu Jun 3 20:46:58 1999 From: ngill at eecs.uic.edu (Navreena Gill) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: In cont. of & in element Message-ID: Thanks a lot for replying to my question regarding & in an element's value. I have been trying to read REC-xml-199.. of W3C to get list of such forbidden characters. Looks like & < ' " %. But I do not get any problem with ', ", %. The & < gave errors. Am I correct about this, or missing something trivial here. The REC-xml-... document seems to be very confusing to me, may be because I am new to xml. I was offered suggestion to use CDATA for using & in the value. What is CDATA? Does it represent some default value? Thanks a lot in advance. Navreena xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Jun 3 21:15:51 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF659@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <199906031917.PAA32650@hesketh.net> At 10:21 AM 6/3/99 -0700, Andrew Layman wrote: >I want to emphasize that my earlier message was intended to clarify what the >actual behavior of MSXML is, not to describe what the best behavior should >be. In this list and in others, there have been strong and conflicting >opinions expressed on what would be the best behavior of a parser, and no >settled standard exists. I believe that people will continue to post >opinions on what a parser should do. I do not, in fact, know that the IE5 >rules are the ultimately best rules; what we can say in their favor is that >because they are conservative, they do not encourage the creation of >documents that are accepted by MSXML and yet are later rejected by >conformant parsers after standards have been worked out. As we are gaining >experience with namespaces, this seems a prudent course. Perhaps I'm just confused, but this seems to privilege the namespaces rec way above the XML 1.0 rec. Not only that, but #FIXED as a requirement for namespace attribute declarations doesn't appear anywhere in the Namespaces rec. Rather than being conservative, I'd have to call this fairly radical. It may seem grotesque to let people override the declarations in the document, but I don't think it's that impossible to come up with cases where it might actually be useful, and I can't see any reason why #FIXED declarations should be mandatory. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 3 21:18:51 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: In cont. of & in element References: Message-ID: <3756D586.7C6580FD@locke.ccil.org> Navreena Gill wrote: > Thanks a lot for replying to my question regarding & in an element's > value. I have been trying to read REC-xml-199.. of W3C to get list of > such forbidden characters. Looks like & < ' " %. % is only an issue within DTDs, not within document instances. ' and " are an issue only in attribute values that are enclosed in ' and " respectively. < and & are a problem everywhere. > I was offered suggestion > to use CDATA for using & in the value. What is CDATA? You can suppress the special meaning of all characters within document content (not attribute values) by enclosing them in the special quotation marks "". Of course, the appearance of "]]>" within your data will screw even this up. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Thu Jun 3 21:21:41 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: Richard Tobin wrote: > Andrew Layman posted a message about this a couple of weeks ago; it's > archived as > > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1999/0394.html > > He points out: > > if you want to use the DTD to validate an instance, you must use > exactly the same prefixes in the instance as were used in the DTD. Thanks for that Richard - I missed that. However, without raising the good old namespace debate again ;) - this seems unnecessarily restrictive. I can't see how DTDs get involved in namespaces *as such* (or rather how namespaces get involved in DTDs). I can see how if I want to have two elements with the same name I can differentiate them with a namespace prefix, like ns1:elem and ns2:elem. But as far as validation is concerned, won't the following two examples pass (even in a non-namespace aware parser)? DTD: XML 1: Hello mum XML 2: Hello mum If I understand Andrew correctly then this is what he means when he says you "must use exactly the same prefixes" - the ns1 and ns2. But why does this mean that the value of 'xmlns' has to be #FIXED? Surely at the level of validation it doesn't matter what the namespace value is - and it's debatable as to whether the concept of namespaces even exists at the level of validation as currently understood, with XML 1.0 + namespaces (XML-Data is different, see below). So, my question is, have MS made something part of validation (as currently defined) which doesn't belong there? If an application really must have the correct namespace defined for it to process the data correctly (after parsing) then it always has the option of defining a DTD that says the namespace must be set to this value. In my above example this could be: and then 'XML 2' would correctly fail. But shouldn't this be an option, not a requirement? The alternative is to say that one DTD is always bound to one namespace. For example, the MS version would prevent me having: DTD: checksum #CDATA #IMPLIED > Hello mum Hello mum which uses the same DTD to validate two lots of data, but indicates that they are to be processed (after parsing) in a different way. As far as I can see from XML 1.0 and the namespace spec this is perfectly acceptable. To bring it back to XHTML, if the W3C is saying that any XHTML processing tool such as a browser needs the namespace set correctly so that it can pick out the correct bits of the document, then yes, the 'xmlns' value must be #FIXED. But if I want to say, here is a document that has a namespace, and although that namespace might change as I develop my applications, a document that uses a previous version of the namespace should still be valid By the way, I recognise that none of what I have said applies to Microsoft's first-cut of schemas constructed from XML which is part of the IE5 parser. In this case the prefix is genuinely a place-holder and the actual underlying URI is significant. But in that case they have implemented 'proper' namespace support in validation, i.e. all the following documents are effectively the same: Hello mum and Hello mum and Hello mum Maybe that's the root of the problem - that features from the schema type of validation have crept into the DTD type? Any thoughts? Regards, Mark PS In the meantime, what are people doing to get round this? Does no-one use any of the W3C DTDs with the MS parser? Do you just use different parsers or have you all copied the DTDs locally and edited them? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ksievers at novell.com Thu Jun 3 22:27:44 1999 From: ksievers at novell.com (Kent Sievers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Message-ID: It amuses me to see how far off topic my posting got. And so quickly. With everyone fixating on a poorly worded clause of mine, I though I better try again, to see if I could improve on my rambling. This time, I will pose it as 3 simplified questions: 1) If (as has ben debated on this list) we are worried about URLs because they are not unique and change over time and do not have "ownership" without adding the HTTP protocol, then why don't we invent an ID for name spaces that IS globally unique? 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? If I just used "mynamespace.myproject.Novell.com" as a name space ID, what are the odds that I will ever see any accidental collisions? And if someone intends to collide with me, then what recourse would I have with any other identifier? 3) Why isn't our name space identifier two parts: 1) the name spaces name/ID that uniquely identifies it, and 2) the last known, or probable location of the information about the name space. The advantages of this are: a) I can still uniquely identify the name space no matter where it is moved, b) I can retrieve information about the name space and c) if that information is moved, there may be some hope of searching for it and updating it's location. Think of it as an ID/URL combination with the URL part optional, but a true URL. >>> "Michael S. Brothers" 06/03/99 12:26PM >>> On Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:08:29 -0400 (EDT) David Megginson wrote: > Kent Sievers writes: > > > 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? After all, don't > > I usually know (and approve) with whom I am exchanging data? > David Megginson reply: > Not really, especially if you count HTTP transactions as "exchanging > data", and in the future, I expect that things will get even more > complicated: e-commerce, in particular, pretty much requires an > ability for blind information exchange. > This being where an industry-wide standards organization fills the void and develops the elements, attributes, etc., for all entities doing business in that industry. If such DTD's (x-schema's, whatever) are in place, communication within the industry would be seamless. The complication arises when trying to exchange data outside the industry. That's why I fall into the camp of having the namespace designator actually point to a document that is retrievable and explains the data being sent. Take Care, ---------------------- Michael S. Brothers Michael.S.Brothers@EMCIns.com 515-362-7473 At this point, I don't think that's the best option. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jun 3 23:27:55 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990603143004.011ee890@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:21 PM 6/3/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >It may seem grotesque to let people override the declarations in the >document, but I don't think it's that impossible to come up with cases >where it might actually be useful, and I can't see any reason why #FIXED >declarations should be mandatory. I'd agree. I think IE5 is clearly wrong here. On the other hand, Andrew is correct in saying that the microsoft approach is the maximally-cautious one, and probably quite defensible in what is effectively a release 1.0 product. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu Jun 3 23:53:20 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: <14166.37316.938922.20789@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hi David, David said: I'll have to reread the Mozilla Public License, but I don't think that there's anything to prevent a closed-source, commercial product from embedded Mozilla, as long as any changes to the Mozilla code itself are made public. Didier says: You are right. As you know, Mozilla is made of XPCOM component. Il can make a new package by replacing an existing XPCOM component or adding a XPCOM component to the existing ones. In a certain way, you sell your component, everything else is free. Its like making a car out of component where 99% of the components are provided by a car component manufacturer and you charge 50 000$ for the mirror :-). So yes you can right we can do that as long as we don't modify the components made by mozilla group or if we do, we give back the modified component. But this constraint is not applied to our components. Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Fri Jun 4 01:04:45 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: Topic Maps Workshops Message-ID: <199906032238.RAA02867@bruno.techno.com> Two special workshops on T O P I C M A P S (ISO/IEC 13250) Instructors: Michel Biezunski and Steven R. Newcomb (both co-editors of 13250) June 21-22 June 24-25 Bellevue, Washington Dallas, Texas USD $1,400 per participant ----------------------------------------------- Registrations: Michele Budz michele@isogen.com +1 214 953 0004 x124 See http://www.infoloom.com/workshop.htm for details. ----------------------------------------------- ISOGEN International Corporation Infoloom TechnoTeacher Inc. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jkuan at infoserve.net Fri Jun 4 07:36:18 1999 From: jkuan at infoserve.net (Jami Kuan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: XML parser problem related to Steven Holzner's code in XML Complete Message-ID: <001101beae4c$b75fa9c0$611652d1@jkuan> Greetings, I'm new comer to the subject of XML, and the first book I read in XML is Steven Holzner's XML Complete. His book is quite easy to follow, but unfortunatly, many changes have taken place since it was published, and I am having trouble to get started, even running some of the samples codes in the book. In many of the java files (Steven used Java mostly), the following three lines are present: import com.ms.xml.ParseException; import com.ms.xml.Document; import com.ms.xml.Element; Whenever I try to run a file with those three lines in it, a class definition not found error is given. According to the book, there is a file called xmlinst.exe avail. from http://www.microsoft.com/standards/xml/xmlparse.htm. Once I ran xmlist, the microsoft COM Java package will be installed, and I was supposed to drag the COM folder into the Java\classes directory in Win Explorer so that the Java programs can find the parser class easily. However, Microsoft has reorganized the web site, and the parser is now integrate into the VM. I downloaded and installed the SDK 3.2, JVM build 3181, and the two class files, but I still get the same errors. According to the book, the following major MSXML classes are used in the sample codes: com.ms.xml.Element com.ms.xml.ElementFactory com.ms.xml.Attribute com.ms.xml.Document com.ms.xml.ParseException Could you please give me some ideas as how to set up my development environment so that I could get started? Thanks very much, James -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990604/0536ca9e/attachment.htm From heikki at citec.fi Fri Jun 4 08:50:36 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:46 2004 Subject: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F1797@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <004201beae56$a0033da0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > Your announcement is specifically addressed to 95/98 users as well as > NT/Linux, but the installer pops up an *extremely* strongly worded warning > to the effect that it would be extremely foolish to go ahead with the > install on 95/98. > > What's your recommendation for us 95/98 users? The only problem (although a bad one!) I know of that is specific to Win95/98 are images on your own HD (or maybe LAN disk as well). So for example if you install DocZilla and try the demos from your HD the images come up *extremely* slow. If you try the *exact* same demos on our website there is no such problems. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Fri Jun 4 09:02:48 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 Message-ID: Andrew Layman wrote: > In this list and in others, there have been strong and conflicting > opinions expressed on what would be the best behavior of a parser, and no > settled standard exists. I believe that people will continue to post > opinions on what a parser should do. Sorry. If you were trying to pre-empt more debate ... too late, I've sent it off! > I do not, in fact, know that the IE5 rules are the ultimately best rules; > what we can say in their favor is that because they are conservative, > they do not encourage the creation of documents that are accepted by > MSXML and yet are later rejected by conformant parsers after standards > have been worked out. I'm sure that raised a few smiles! As it happens, your approach is worse than useless. If in the future the value of 'xmlns' is actually part of determining whether a document is valid or not, then so be it. DTDs will need to change. But that also goes for XLink, fragments, XML-Data and more. The fact is that as far as I can tell, at the moment there is nothing in XML 1.0 or the namespace spec that says the value of a namespace MUST be fixed. Yet because Microsoft have decided they should be - and many may agree - I am now unable to get perfectly valid DTDs, over which I have no control, past your parser. This is not conservative ... it is WRONG. What really amazes me is why you have picked this feature to be restrictive on. Microsoft have happily issued an implementation of XML-Data that we all know will have to change, as well as an implementation of XSL that has changed already and will have to change again. I don't mind that - I accept that things are still evolving. In fact I'm very grateful for having the chance to build a test system around XML-Data, even though I know it will all change. It's even got to the point where for our own purposes I don't even use DTDs anymore - I automatically generate schemas from my database and use your excellent parser. But your misplaced paternalism is now preventing me from doing real work with information from people who still DO use DTDs - like the W3C, for example! I want to apply XSL to XHTML, and I can only think that to do it I will have to change parsers (unless you tell me there is a secret switch somewhere, to turn this ridiculous 'feature' off). Mark Birbeck Managing Director IED Ltd. 220 Bon March? Centre 442-444 Brixton Road London SW9 8EJ w: http://www.iedigital.net/ t: +44 (171) 501 9502 e: Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri Jun 4 10:22:49 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM. Message-ID: Don Park wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote, > > But if you try and insert it into the tree, you'll > > find that a conforming implementation will throw a > > HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR. > > Actually, inserting a DocumentFragment 'node' into a > tree should insert the child nodes of the > DocumentFragment (leaving it empty). Oops, how embarrasing, particularly since ... > HERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR exception should be thrown only if > any of the child nodes can not be inserted. State of > the tree after partially sucessful DocumentFragment > insertion is unspecified in the spec. My > implementation revokes the entire operation leaving the > tree and the DocumentFragment unchanged. ... that's exactly how _my_ implementation behaves too! How could I forget. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Fri Jun 4 11:06:41 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux In-Reply-To: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A1959@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: <004f01beae69$9f038640$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > And you also have a common misconception: The code that you > have to give to your users has to be given under the NPL (or > MPL). This means they are free to re-distribute that source code > to whoever they like (i.e. there's no point in keeping your > source code modifications private to just you and your users - > you can't stop them putting it on a public ftp server). I found > this out by discussing the issue with a Netscape lawyer on > netscape.public.mozilla.licence I know that. The code that is a Modification as explained in the license falls under NPL (or MPL if that is what the original file used). That code must be made available to your user, not everybody. The user is then free to do whatever they want with the source, under the NPL or MPL. As you pointed out, they can post it to a public ftp site if they want. But the code is not automatically "public public" as in some other licensies. There is a certain difference between CAN and MUST. The code you develop that does not fall under NPL or MPL is nobody's business but yours. NPL and MPL are different from GPL for a good reason. I've already seen product releases that use the Mozilla Public License that have nothing to do with Mozilla or Netscape. But this is getting off topic... -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Fri Jun 4 11:18:23 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: ANN: DocZilla Alpha 2 for WinNT/95/98 and Linux Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A1959@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Heikki Toivonen [SMTP:heikki@citec.fi] > > > I'll have to reread the Mozilla Public License, but I don't think that > > there's anything to prevent a closed-source, commercial product from > > embedded Mozilla, as long as any changes to the Mozilla code itself > > are made public. > > Actually not "public public". The license says you must make Modifications > available in source form to the users of your product. One common > misunderstanding about the NPL is that you should give the source back to > Netscape. That is not true (unless NS happens to use your product). > And you also have a common misconception: The code that you have to give to your users has to be given under the NPL (or MPL). This means they are free to re-distribute that source code to whoever they like (i.e. there's no point in keeping your source code modifications private to just you and your users - you can't stop them putting it on a public ftp server). I found this out by discussing the issue with a Netscape lawyer on netscape.public.mozilla.licence Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri Jun 4 12:01:51 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990603143004.011ee890@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990603143004.011ee890@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: * Tim Bray | | I'd agree. I think IE5 is clearly wrong here. On the other hand, | Andrew is correct in saying that the microsoft approach is the | maximally-cautious one, and probably quite defensible in what is | effectively a release 1.0 product. I find it interesting to note that if one requires all xmlns attributes to be #FIXED we have an implementation of namespaces that is effectively equivalent to the original processing instruction draft. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ben at mitra.com Fri Jun 4 15:22:52 1999 From: ben at mitra.com (Ben Hui) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: xsl editor needed Message-ID: <000301beae8d$a2f0e2b0$9607a8c0@mitra.com> hi all I am trying to find a nice GUI XSL editor to greate XSL file. I tried XML Styler, i find it too difficult to use. Are the any alternative I can pick from?? Thanks As a note, for those people who are involved in XSL development, I really don't know how they write XSL document... notepad? anyway, they are hero to me :) Ben Hui xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 4 15:47:59 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 References: <3.0.32.19990603143004.011ee890@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3757D970.6D68F88E@locke.ccil.org> Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > I find it interesting to note that if one requires all xmlns > attributes to be #FIXED we have an implementation of namespaces that > is effectively equivalent to the original processing instruction draft. I don't think so. The PI version did not allow local-scope declarations, whereas #FIXED attributes are local to the element they are declared as belonging to. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de Fri Jun 4 18:16:29 1999 From: shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de (Robb Shecter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> <14162.43529.767446.988311@localhost.localdomain> <009e01beabbe$40c5e6c0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <3757FC09.F442A45B@darmstadt.gmd.de> James Tauber wrote: > ...What I am suggesting is that if one has the right > to > > http://www.sprynet.com/megginson/MyNamespace > > then one has the right to: > > hname://www.sprynet.com/megginson/MyNamespace > > The only difference is one is explicitly stating in the latter that it is > irretrievable. > This sounds very reasonable, but I haven't seen any responses. And, combining it with Didier's comments about characters to avoid, it could look like this: urn:hname:www:sprynet:com:megginson:MyNamespace ...Which looks even less URL-like. So, we can all agree that the rights are based on some protocol like HTTP, but when we write it out, we write it in such a way that it isn't misleading. I don't think it matters what the fine print of the standards say, because writing something like "http://..." "means" that something can be retrieved, and is very specific about how. It's just confusing, and saying something that's not true. Personally, I think it'd be even better to use email addresses as the "protocol to which we have rights", instead of webspace: - We all have "rights" to the space, and the references are unique, BUT, there's no chance that someone will think they can retrieve something there. If anything, there's an implied contact address which could be used to make a request to. - They'd be longer lasting. As a private person, my acm.org email address is guaranteed for life (?), but I don't have any such guarantees from orgs where I have private webspace. Also, URLs seem to get shuffled around more than email addresses. - There's more flexibility in making the right choice. Most people have several email addresses, and can base a namespace on the one whose lifetime and organizational associations are appropriate for the particular situation. Organizations can use e-mail aliases to make abstracted spaces not tied to any person, etc. This is something that people are already familiar with, and can be done with current technology. So, this would mean something along the lines of: urn:hname:org:acm:robb@:MySpace1 Just brainstorming, - Robb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Fri Jun 4 19:22:54 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3757FC09.F442A45B@darmstadt.gmd.de> Message-ID: Hi Robb Robb proposed: urn:hname:www:sprynet:com:megginson:MyNamespace ...Which looks even less URL-like. So, we can all agree that the rights are based on some protocol like HTTP, but when we write it out, we write it in such a way that it isn't misleading. Didier says: Sounds good Robb, the syntax is OK and the name cannot be taken for a URL. Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ksievers at novell.com Fri Jun 4 19:32:39 1999 From: ksievers at novell.com (Kent Sievers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Message-ID: I see how Paul's proposal meets the "forever unique" requirement, but how is it usefull for retrieving the namespace information? Reguarding the collisions, I for one would be willing to live with either 1) a "forever unique" ID or 2) taking my chances with the odds on a more descriptive ID. Finnally, I think that you missunderstood me on my third question. I never suggested making the URL part of the document. I am proposing that it be part of the ID. For example xmlns="xxxxxxxxx:http://www.novell.com/myproject/mynamespace" where xxxxxxx is a "forever unique" identifier and the rest is an indication of where it can be retrieved. The point is that the second part can be used to retreive, while the unique identifier can be used to identify and possibly perform a search in case the information is moved. It would be replacable/ignorable without breaking the essence of the identifier. >>> Steve Dahl 06/03/99 04:20PM >>> Kent Sievers wrote: > It amuses me to see how far off topic my posting got. And so quickly. With everyone fixating on a poorly worded clause of mine, I though I better try again, to see if I could improve on my rambling. This time, I will pose it as 3 simplified questions: > > 1) If (as has ben debated on this list) we are worried about URLs because they are not unique and change over time and do not have "ownership" without adding the HTTP protocol, then why don't we invent an ID for name spaces that IS globally unique? Paul Prescod's proposal for identifiers of the form "urn:urn-22:19990603:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk:e-mail" ..would be exactly the sort of ID you're talking about. Of course, we won't know whether it's "urn-22" or "urn-7" or "urn-1003" until the IETF assigns him a number. And I'm not sure whether I've used the date format correctly, but this is an example of his proposal, at least in the general structure. So it's been invented, but we need to wait for the IETF to ratify it. > 2) Are we really that worried about collisions? If I just used "mynamespace.myproject.Novell.com" as a name space ID, what are the odds that I will ever see any accidental collisions? And if someone intends to collide with me, then what recourse would I have with any other identifier? In your lifetime, maybe you'll never see a collision. Part of this issue is protecting not just ourselves, but our heirs, so to speak. We're trying to avoid the next Y2K problem. Let's hypothesize that you use the above namespace ID. Further, assume that for some reason which you have not yet anticipated, someone wants to archive your XML files for long periods of time (maybe 100 years). Assume that 30 years from now, Novell (by acquisition or merger) changes its name, and sells "novell.com". Another company buys that DNS name, and starts creating namespace names. There is some remote probability that by accident, they could accidentally collide with your namespace name. Here's a list of obvious objections, and my responses. "My data / namespace will never last 100 years." Maybe, but this is the same mentality that led programmers to use 2 digits for the year number, and they've been proved wrong in a grand way. After the scare created by Y2K, I suspect a lot of people are going to pay a lot more attention to long-term issues, especially if they're not hard to account for. "The odds of an accidental collision are very remote." Yes, it's very unlikely that your specific namespace will encounter a collision. But assume that over time billions or trillions of names will be generated--some of these will identify XML namespaces, but other resources will get named as well, and if we want to use the URN to retrieve documentation about the namespace, we don't want to collide with the URN for some other resource. So we imagine trillions of names generated over hundreds of years. While the probability of a given name being used twice is extremely low, the probability that *some* name will be duplicated becomes quite high, when you have that big a data set. To make a comparison that's not too far off the mark, imagine that through poor planning, some reserch center released a disease that cannot be controlled, and where the odds that I will be killed by this on any given day are 1:100,000,000. I personally would not be very afraid that I might catch it. But I think most people would be infuriated if every day 60 people world-wide (including 3 Americans) were killed due to poor planning by this center. It's a contrived example that ignores how diseases spread, so don't pick too hard at the details, but it points up how small probabilities become big ones when the dice are rolled often enough. "And if someone intends to collide with me, then what recourse would I have with any other identifier?" No recourse at all--no naming scheme can prevent collisions if one of the parties is malicious. This is all about avoiding collisions between people who honestly don't want collisions. If everyone follows the rules, how can we *guarantee* no collisions, without depending on a central naming authority, or on (as someone suggested) the serial numbers of specialized hardware. > 3) Why isn't our name space identifier two parts: 1) the name spaces name/ID that uniquely identifies it, and 2) the last known, or probable location of the information about the name space. The advantages of this are: a) I can still uniquely identify the name space no matter where it is moved, b) I can retrieve information about the name space and c) if that information is moved, there may be some hope of searching for it and updating it's location. Think of it as an ID/URL combination with the URL part optional, but a true URL. Because, if we have some server that knows how to map the namespace ID to an URL, why should we embed the same URL in the document. If we do a good job of choosing the URN (the namespace ID) so that it's permanently unique, we can guarantee that it will never be out of date. But we know there's a pretty good chance that the URL will change over time--it would be nice if the document didn't contain out-of-date URLs. By letting some server hold the mapping from URN to URL, and by updating that server when the URL changes, we make sure that any software would always be able to find, not the last known, but the *current* URL of the documentation. Assuming that such a server exists, it's a much more robust mechanism for finding information about the namespace. But the lack of such a server shouldn't necessarily keep us from using URNs. In fact, the more we use URNs, the more push there will be to create such servers. And if you need to be able to retrieve documentation *right now*, and not wait until this magical server exists, then you should use an URL rather than an URN as your namespace ID. -- - Steve Dahl sdahl@goshawk.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Fri Jun 4 20:03:02 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XCatalog (now XMLCatalog) Message-ID: I am interested in seeing if any more work is being done with XCatalogs. I (being the SGML stalwart that I am) think that XCatalogs would be a very useful feature of XML. I love using catalog files (and i'm not even a sadist). It's saved my bootie a few times and keeps things pretty scalable... I thought the idea of using sysIDs with publicIDs in the XML doc instance was kinda screwy... Who's idea was that anyway? Best wishes... Jason A. Buss Single Engine Technical Publications Cessna Aircraft Co. jabuss@cessna.textron.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 4 20:22:01 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XCatalog (now XMLCatalog) References: Message-ID: <375819B2.3E397BF6@locke.ccil.org> Buss, Jason A wrote: > I am interested in seeing if any more work is being done with XCatalogs. Not by me at present. I do have some orphaned Java code that plugs XML Catalog support into any SAX environment by implementing the org.xml.sax.EntityResolver interface. I haven't had time to debug/document this. (Any takers?) It supports only the OASIS format, not the XML-syntax format. Interested parties can download it from these URLs: http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/Socat.java http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/SocatResolver.java http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/SocatDemo.java -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Fri Jun 4 20:38:25 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: XCatalog (now XMLCatalog) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Buss, Jason A wrote: > I am interested in seeing if any more work is being done with XCatalogs. > > I (being the SGML stalwart that I am) think that XCatalogs would be a very > useful feature of XML. I love using catalog files (and i'm not even a > sadist). It's saved my bootie a few times and keeps things pretty > scalable... I'm currently working on an XML::Catalog Perl module. Can't say when it will be done, though. > I thought the idea of using sysIDs with publicIDs in the XML doc instance > was kinda screwy... Who's idea was that anyway? I believe Tim addressed this in the Annotated XML Recommendation; I forget the exact details. Something to do with always having a fallback in case a public ID couldn't be resolved, IIRC. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Fri Jun 4 22:24:54 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: xsl editor needed In-Reply-To: <000301beae8d$a2f0e2b0$9607a8c0@mitra.com> Message-ID: <000301beaec8$875465a0$aa58fea9@w21tp> > I am trying to find a nice GUI XSL editor to greate XSL file. > I tried XML > Styler, i find it too difficult to use. Are the any > alternative I can pick > from?? Thanks Exactly what were you looking for? I have written several IDEs but I find it difficult to come up with an easy to use WYSIWYG XSL editor but here are some ideas from my stack of cool things: 1. Template creation wizard 2. Match pattern wizard 3. XSL document tree with drag-n-drop everywhere 4. XSL element property inspector 5. Before and after views in the template wizard/editors 6. Template/pattern repository for reuse 7. Late-binding of literal result to allow multiple results (HTML, XHTML, XML, PDF, etc.) 8. Drag-and-drop XSL process configuration for multi-step translation. 9. Debugger. Anything else? How would you rank the ideas in terms of importance? > As a note, for those people who are involved in XSL > development, I really > don't know how they write XSL document... notepad? anyway, > they are hero to > me :) More like vi or emacs me thinks. Frankly, those 'finger-happy' editors gives me the creeps. No offense meant to finger-happy folks. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ngill at eecs.uic.edu Fri Jun 4 22:24:10 1999 From: ngill at eecs.uic.edu (Navreena Gill) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:47 2004 Subject: Saving XML document Message-ID: Hello List, I am using SUN parser to parse an XML, modify it and write it back. I use Write function of XMLDocument with UTF-8 encoding. But the file it produces has all those squere boxes after each line break. How do I get rid of those? These boxes show up while opening the saved file in notepad. In wordpad it is fine. I have tried using xmlWriteChildren with pretty printing setting, this also does not work. Thanks a lot in advance. Navreena Gill xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 4 22:41:59 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: xsl editor needed References: <000301beaec8$875465a0$aa58fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <37583A80.58A573D5@locke.ccil.org> Don Park wrote: > More like vi or emacs me thinks. Frankly, those 'finger-happy' editors > gives me the creeps. No offense meant to finger-happy folks. Me too, which is why I am an 'ex' troglodyte. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sjs at portal.com Fri Jun 4 22:56:47 1999 From: sjs at portal.com (Steve Schow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: xsl editor needed Message-ID: <188D20A88142D11190E900A0C906BBD3015C5534@venus.portal.com> Frankly, what the world is going to need are tools that you use to "styleize" XML.... Not "XSL Editors". It may be that XSL is being used under the covers to "style-ize", and as such....you would effectively be editing XSL with the tool. But rather than make a tool that just makes it easy to edit XSL....how about a tool that you use to think graphically about the layout you desire and then it figures out what XSL to use? -steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Don Park [mailto:donpark@quake.net] > Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 1:26 PM > To: 'XML Dev' > Subject: RE: xsl editor needed > > > > I am trying to find a nice GUI XSL editor to greate XSL file. > > I tried XML > > Styler, i find it too difficult to use. Are the any > > alternative I can pick > > from?? Thanks > > Exactly what were you looking for? I have written several > IDEs but I find > it difficult to come up with an easy to use WYSIWYG XSL > editor but here are > some ideas from my stack of cool things: > > 1. Template creation wizard > 2. Match pattern wizard > 3. XSL document tree with drag-n-drop everywhere > 4. XSL element property inspector > 5. Before and after views in the template wizard/editors > 6. Template/pattern repository for reuse > 7. Late-binding of literal result to allow multiple results > (HTML, XHTML, > XML, PDF, etc.) > 8. Drag-and-drop XSL process configuration for multi-step translation. > 9. Debugger. > > Anything else? How would you rank the ideas in terms of importance? > > > As a note, for those people who are involved in XSL > > development, I really > > don't know how they write XSL document... notepad? anyway, > > they are hero to > > me :) > > More like vi or emacs me thinks. Frankly, those > 'finger-happy' editors > gives me the creeps. No offense meant to finger-happy folks. > > Best, > > Don Park > Docuverse > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tyler at infinet.com Sat Jun 5 04:52:51 1999 From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: BW ebiz--5/28/99--Clicks & Misses: Message-ID: <375890A2.A41ECA8E@infinet.com> I thought this might be of interest to many on this list who are active participants with XML.Org even though they all probably are already aware of this article. Nevertheless, just in case here it is. Enjoy, Tyler http://www.businessweek.com/ebiz/9905/el0528.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/1740c24b/el0528.htm From ricko at allette.com.au Sat Jun 5 06:04:15 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. Message-ID: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Both BizTalk and the recent XML Schema draft use the namespace identifier as the schema identifier. However, BizTalk says that people *must* use XML Data for their schemas. So BizTalk documents cannot use XML Schema documents, and vice versa, unless both XML Schema and BizTalk/XML-Data are considered selective transformations of some other document type which has the namespaces in some schema neutral format. In the absense of a schema invocation mechanism (e.g., a version of the style sheet PI for schemas) that seperates Namespace identifiers from particular schemas (and therefore allows multiple schemas), both XML Schemas and BizTalk/XML-Data capture your data to particular paradigms. For BizTalk this is marginally more understandable: BizTalk frames itself as a wrapper, but then doesn't allow any flexibility in the schema language for the body: in other words, if you use BizTalk, you have to use XML-Data. This means that developers who require a degree of portability should maintain their documents using some schema-independent namespace, and only attach the namespace for a particular schema when the document is generated for a particular purposes. BizTalk could have allowed multiple schemas with XML-Data as the default; this would have allowed a lot of competition inside the wrapper/routing framework. But they didn't: is it a framework or a straightjacet? In other words, namespaces are dead (for database documents) as ways of uniquely naming elements independent of any other considerations. They are now "name-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language--spaces". Congratulations to all concerned. The practical question is now what to do? Should we just lay down and die; should we go back to architectural forms; should we invent a parallel namespace PI that is concerned with uniquely identifying names and not with tieing elements to a schema? The first thing that is required is for W3C to create a Schema PI, in a similar fashion to the Stylesheet PI. In the absense of that mechanism, the Devourers can excuse themselves that there is nothing else to use for invoking schemas apart from namespaces. This is a matter of urgency and should take priority over all XML Schema activities, IMHO. Rick Jelliffe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/2bdbd796/attachment.htm From dent at oofile.com.au Sat Jun 5 08:06:32 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: new expatpp c++ wrapper for expat Message-ID: There's a new expatpp on our ftp server. I'm sorting out some issues building DLLs on VC but it now includes working projects with static libs . The big feature of this update is it makes it trivially easy to create nested parsers which is something used heavily in parsing our report-writer output. We just released an OOFILE update which saves and restores entire report layouts and data (using expatpp for reading). I've included relevant report-writer code as an example in the expatpp release. or Both archives include CodeWarrior projects for Mac and VC5 projects for Win. If you're interested in demos of the report-writer output there are some files online at Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sat Jun 5 10:13:33 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: XCatalog (now XMLCatalog) References: Message-ID: <00fc01beaf2a$a348d860$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > I thought the idea of using sysIDs with publicIDs in the XML doc instance > was kinda screwy... Who's idea was that anyway? I think some people felt that have just publicIDs would cause problems because there was no widespread resolution mechanism deployed on the Web[1]. As XML 1.0 stands, people can use publicIDs if they want to but must provide a sysID fall-back. James [1] of course, my DELEGATE extension to catalogs was designed to provide exactly such a mechanism. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Sat Jun 5 14:20:28 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge Message-ID: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> Hi Folks, Are you up for a mind-bending XSL problem? Someone presented me with this problem several weeks ago and I have yet to find a solution. It looks simple. It is deceptively challenging. An XML document stores database data as follows: A B C S E R G Q Note that the columns that we are interested in are col1 and col2. A element may contain data from columns not of interest. But, it will always contain at least data for col1 and col2. The problem is to create an XSL stylesheet that generates an HTML table with a table header: col1 col2 and within the table it has the row data. So the HTML table should look like this: col1 col2 A C E S Q G I have shown an XML document which has just two columns. However, the XSL stylesheet needs to be generic and capable of handling XML documents with any number of columns (as listed in the section). /Roger P.S. Below is what I tried, which doesn't work. Dynamic Table
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sat Jun 5 14:42:23 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37591984.32F697C5@w3.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > > James Tauber wrote: > > > > 1. Namespace URIs don't have to point to anything retrievable, they are just > > unique identifiers > > 2. Some URI schemes might not be web-retrievable (eg "isbn:1-23456-789-0") > > 3. Some URI schemes *are* web-retrievable (eg http://www.megginson.com/ns/) > > 4. So namespaces URIs *can* point to something, though, such as a > > human-readable description of the namespace, if they use a URI scheme that > > is web-retrievable. > > It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not > retrievable by the HTTP protocol. It would be, but no such examples were given. I suspect that the "isbn" protocol example would be better written urn:isbn:whatever - but regardless, it did not claim to be using the http protocol > I am distressed that this is becoming > "standard practice." How the heck are we supposed to know, on seeing a URI > whether it is supposed to be retrievable or not? Look at the protocol part and see if you understand that protocol. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat Jun 5 14:45:29 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge References: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> Message-ID: <37591A3F.76C01E0A@jclark.com> You have to use the variables feature of the current WD. Replace the second TR element in your attempted solution by the following: Roger Costello wrote: > > Hi Folks, > > Are you up for a mind-bending XSL problem? Someone presented > me with this problem several weeks ago and I have yet to find > a solution. It looks simple. It is deceptively challenging. > > An XML document stores database data as follows: > > > > > > > > > > A > B > C > > > S > E > > > R > G > Q > > > > > Note that the columns that we are interested in are col1 and col2. > A element may contain data from columns not of interest. > But, it will always contain at least data for col1 and col2. > > The problem is to create an XSL stylesheet that generates an > HTML table with a table header: > > col1 col2 > > and within the table it has the row data. So the HTML table > should look like this: > > col1 col2 > A C > E S > Q G > > I have shown an XML document which has just two columns. However, > the XSL stylesheet needs to be generic and capable of handling > XML documents with any number of columns (as listed in the > section). > /Roger > > P.S. Below is what I tried, which doesn't work. > > > result-ns="html"> > > > > Dynamic Table > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> select="../../Rows/Row/Column[@name='{@name}']"/>
> > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Sat Jun 5 14:53:50 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge References: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> <37591A3F.76C01E0A@jclark.com> Message-ID: <37591F08.A4AB814C@mitre.org> Thanks James. Any way to do it with the Dec. 16 WD? /Roger James Clark wrote: > > You have to use the variables feature of the current WD. Replace the > second TR element in your attempted solution by the following: > > > > > > > > > > > > Roger Costello wrote: > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Are you up for a mind-bending XSL problem? Someone presented > > me with this problem several weeks ago and I have yet to find > > a solution. It looks simple. It is deceptively challenging. > > > > An XML document stores database data as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A > > B > > C > > > > > > S > > E > > > > > > R > > G > > Q > > > > > > > > > > Note that the columns that we are interested in are col1 and col2. > > A element may contain data from columns not of interest. > > But, it will always contain at least data for col1 and col2. > > > > The problem is to create an XSL stylesheet that generates an > > HTML table with a table header: > > > > col1 col2 > > > > and within the table it has the row data. So the HTML table > > should look like this: > > > > col1 col2 > > A C > > E S > > Q G > > > > I have shown an XML document which has just two columns. However, > > the XSL stylesheet needs to be generic and capable of handling > > XML documents with any number of columns (as listed in the > > section). > > /Roger > > > > P.S. Below is what I tried, which doesn't work. > > > > > > > result-ns="html"> > > > > > > > > Dynamic Table > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > select="../../Rows/Row/Column[@name='{@name}']"/>
> > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat Jun 5 15:02:18 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge References: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> <37591A3F.76C01E0A@jclark.com> <37591F08.A4AB814C@mitre.org> Message-ID: <37591E6B.38051F51@jclark.com> Roger Costello wrote: > > Thanks James. Any way to do it with the Dec. 16 WD? Not that I can think of. One of the main reasons for adding the local variables feature was precisely to be able to handle this sort of example. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Sat Jun 5 17:05:46 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <000001beaf65$98332940$0a000a0a@csg> I've noticed that Netscape Communicator 4.x ignores
and haven't tried same with IE4.x as I've upgraded to IE5. What techniques are going to be developed to account for this backwards compatibility issue if one creates otherwise well-formed documents? Must we count on the DOM and script our way into redundancy again? Would 'inline redundancy' be a strategy as in the form of

or would this break the current and future processors while addressing the foibles of the earlier releases? Lastly, I thought I read somewhere to use
using white space and when I use this technique this seems to be recognized by Communicator 4.x *and* IE5 but I wonder again about generalized usage in this regard with respect to maintaining a well-formed document. If this white space technique for empty tags is to be the way it should be done why do I not see this technique used in the examples that are being published? I hope to remind those of you who have a grasp on usage that most of us are engaged in 'monkey see - monkey do'. ======================================= Clinton Gallagher NET cpio@metromilwaukee.com URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Sat Jun 5 18:42:16 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:48 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. In-Reply-To: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> (ricko@allette.com.au) References: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906051622.LAA09660@bruno.techno.com> [Rick Jelliffe:] > In other words, namespaces are dead (for database documents) as ways > of uniquely naming elements independent of any other > considerations. They are now > "name-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language--spaces". > The practical question is now what to do? Should we just lay down and > die; should we go back to architectural forms; should we invent a > parallel namespace PI that is concerned with uniquely identifying > names and not with tieing elements to a schema? I'm glad you brought this up, Rick, because I have never heard a good argument as to why architectural forms were rejected in the first place. To me, it looks as though they were rejected simply because many RDBMS applications professionals don't yet think in object-oriented terms. (But that's changing.) Architectural forms handle multiple inheritance very gracefully, and they are based on a paradigm (the Grove Paradigm) within which re-usable software modules for inheritable architectures can cooperate in arbitrary combinations within applications that understand multiple vocabularies, even when vocabularies are combined arbitrarily in XML resources. Architectural forms work with or without a DTD; with architectural forms, the DTD becomes merely a markup-minimization device. "Meta-DTDs" (or "meta-Schemas", if you prefer) are the basis of primary syntactic validation. "Architectural definition documents" are the basis of subsequent semantic validation. Architectural "property sets" expose the information sets of resources that inherit architectures. Architectural forms provide a means of validating resources against the real syntactic and semantic requirements involved in using what are commonly called "vocabularies", thus meeting a real, basic requirement that W3C "namespaces" have never met, and that *vendor-neutral e-commerce must have*. For a general introduction, see my slides from XTech '99, http://www.hytime.org/papers/srnXTech99 I hate the idea of further fracturing the solution space with yet another PI which will be in partial conflict with other XML features. Now is the time to have a sensible, hard-working solution for inheriting multiple vocabularies. XML Schema isn't quite there (yet), but it could easily get where it needs to be, and I have high hopes for it. Anyway, until I see something better, my money's on the Grove Paradigm. I don't see anything else (yet) that will really meet all the requirements and really provide a stable path forward for the indefinite future. If we already know a correct answer, and our need for a correct answer is urgent, why don't we accept it and improve on it? In any case, the Grove Paradigm is already inevitable in ERP and other high-end corporate memory applications, including Topic Maps. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sat Jun 5 19:11:31 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990605101241.01614920@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:22 AM 6/5/99 -0500, Steven R. Newcomb wrote: >I'm glad you brought this up, Rick, because I have never heard a good >argument as to why architectural forms were rejected in the first >place. To me, it looks as though they were rejected simply because >many RDBMS applications professionals don't yet think in >object-oriented terms. (But that's changing.) Architectural forms were rejected because it was a design goal to assign namespaces both to elements and to attributes, and the AF syntax for doing with this attributes was felt to be indefensibly hideous. As David Megginson has pointed out on several occasions, namespaces solve an entirely different problem, and interoperate with AFs just fine. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sat Jun 5 19:11:31 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990605101325.01616ec0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:10 AM 6/5/99 -0500, WorldNet wrote: >I've noticed that Netscape Communicator 4.x ignores
and haven't tried >same with IE4.x as I've upgraded to IE5. What techniques are going to be >developed to account for this backwards compatibility issue Admittedly a kludge, but "
" (note the space) works just fine.

kind of works, but in legacy browsers actually inserts *two* blank lines (sigh). -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Sat Jun 5 19:12:25 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. In-Reply-To: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <001901beaf75$a1b0de30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Ouch!! Why ought namespaces be dead? Is Biztalk that important? Just don't use Biztalk or the XML Data namespace if you don't want it, this is a free WWW! --------- > Both BizTalk and the recent XML Schema draft use the namespace identifier as the > schema identifier. ... > In other words, namespaces are dead (for database documents) as ways of uniquely > naming elements independent of any other considerations. They are now "name-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language--spaces". Not always. You can always use a "urn:" based namespace URI to prevent linking the namespace to a schema. > > Congratulations to all concerned. > > The practical question is now what to do? Should we just lay down and die; should > we go back to architectural forms; should we invent a parallel namespace PI that is > concerned with uniquely identifying names and not with tieing elements to a schema? > The first thing that is required is for W3C to create a Schema PI, in a similar > fashion to the Stylesheet PI. In the absense of that mechanism, the Devourers can > excuse themselves that there is nothing else to use for invoking schemas apart from > namespaces. Agreed. This is an easier to understand, more flexible solution which is more akin to the present mechanism of associating a DTD to a document than the proposed linkage to the namespace URI. One issue to consider, however, is the impact of either mechanism of schema/namespace association on how a document containing elements from multiple namespaces ought be validated. --------- Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Sat Jun 5 20:13:40 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU In-Reply-To: <000001beaf65$98332940$0a000a0a@csg> from "WorldNet" at Jun 5, 99 10:10:49 am Message-ID: <199906051833.OAA11320@locke.ccil.org> WorldNet scripsit: > I thought I read somewhere to use
using white space and when > I use this technique this seems to be recognized by Communicator 4.x *and* > IE5 but I wonder again about generalized usage in this regard with respect > to maintaining a well-formed document. There is nothing ill-formed about "
", since whitespace is allowed in that position by the XML BNF. However, many browsers interpret "
" as ", so the formally equivalent "

" turns out to be a bad idea. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Jun 5 21:02:23 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> <37591984.32F697C5@w3.org> Message-ID: <37597341.40FE2768@prescod.net> Chris Lilley wrote: > > > It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not > > retrievable by the HTTP protocol. > > It would be, but no such examples were given. The XSL namespace is: http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 Is someone going to put something retrievable there? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jkuan at infoserve.net Sat Jun 5 21:21:57 1999 From: jkuan at infoserve.net (Jami Kuan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: How to Solve this ParserException Problem? Message-ID: <000d01beaf89$39b9a280$331652d1@jkuan> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: textbrowserFrame.class Type: application/octet-stream Size: 560 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/5ee2c095/textbrowserFrame.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: textbrowser.java Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3306 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/5ee2c095/textbrowser.obj -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: textbrowser.xml Type: text/xml Size: 480 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/5ee2c095/textbrowser.xml -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: textbrowser.class Type: application/octet-stream Size: 3275 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990605/5ee2c095/textbrowser-0001.obj From srn at techno.com Sat Jun 5 22:32:12 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990605101241.01614920@pop.intergate.bc.ca> (message from Tim Bray on Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:13:28 -0700) References: <3.0.32.19990605101241.01614920@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <199906052030.PAA28464@bruno.techno.com> > Architectural forms were rejected because it was a design goal to > assign namespaces both to elements and to attributes, and the AF > syntax for doing with this attributes was felt to be indefensibly > hideous. Hideousness is in the eye of the beholder, but I think we're at cross-purposes. The issues here go far deeper than syntax. Syntax is just *how* we say something. *What* we say is infinitely more important, just as the whole architectural forms paradigm is infinitely more significant than the question of how we declare its use. > As David Megginson has pointed out on several occasions, namespaces > solve an entirely different problem, and interoperate with AFs just > fine. What, exactly, is the nature of the real-world problem that namespaces are the key to solving? Namespaces are still *perceived* as solving, and are often *sold* as solving, a problem that they do not in fact solve: the problem of allowing information to be exchanged in a truly open marketplace. Namespaces are being sold as the key to interchanging e-commerce information. And they will work for that purpose, BUT NOT IN A VENDOR-NEUTRAL CONTEXT, in which every system vendor can participate on a level playing field with every other system vendor, with a reasonable expectation that information will be reliably interchanged, regardless of who made the software that produces or applies the information. If I had ever thought that XML, nee SGML, could not be used by the public to create such a level playing field, I would have lost interest in it then and there. That's why I react so negatively to "namespaces". They seem to me designed to make private languages, not public ones. Namespaces provide absolutely no way for the information-using public to create (and demand software conformance to) whatever information architectures it deems appropriate. Namespaces put all control over every aspect of information interchange in the hands of whichever software companies already "own" a given user base. I put it to you very baldly: namespaces work against the public interest, and in favor of existing software monopolies. It doesn't surprise me that Rick Jelliffe has detected a conflict between BizTalk and other attempts to rationalize e-commerce, nor am I surprised that the conflict exposes an impedance mismatch involving namespaces. I keep hoping that people will wake up to the real requirements, and the real public interest issues here. That's why I'm bringing up architectural forms, for the umpteenth time, in this forum. I'm hoping that people will recognize that the interchange of commercial information requires *common* *public* languages, while "namespaces" are, at best, *private* languages that are inextricably entangled in particular software applications. Architectural forms provide a syntax (about which I care nothing -- let's agree on new syntax that you like, Tim), and a paradigm (about which I care very passionately) in which we can have *validatable* *common* *public* vocabularies that can be used for interchangeable information. In the AF paradigm, in any given application, we can have a re-usable plug-in engine for each vocabulary. The means whereby that magic is accomplished is the grove paradigm. It may or may not be relevant that all this is already standardized in ISO/IEC 10744:1997. The fact is, it works, and it is urgently needed for medical records, e-commerce, and other major applications of XML. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sat Jun 5 22:57:19 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) References: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> <14158.42213.350360.409498@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990528110617.015740f0@mail.accessone.com> <14158.60704.722872.118928@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <375925C9.AC6A7F40@w3.org> David Megginson wrote: > > David LeBlanc writes: > > (on DTDs) > > > Ok, now i'm confused David - your second statement seems to > > contradict your first statement. > > If you give me a single, well-formed XML document, I can *always* > write a DTD that describes its structure. Yes. You declare each observed element, give it a content model of any, declare each observed attribute, and make it PCDATA. That minimally describes it, like an RFC 822 email message can be describes as "a sequence of characters"; and likewise, it doesn't necessarily fully describe it or capture all the constraints that would be wished. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Sat Jun 5 23:58:55 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: schema output for critique Message-ID: The context of this is that we needed to finish a local contract in a hurry that involved reading and writing entire report definitions as well as data. The data had to come back in with a schema very close to the original (ie: data types such as date & int preserved) because the report-writer preview window also allows in-place editing of content. I therefore took a few minor shortcuts from the XML Schema working draft. My major concerns are: 1) nested scope of names eg: how to handle Value used within Order as an integer and within Employee as a string. (uggh, horrible example I know) 2) masking for date types - the lexical suggestions don't seem to go far enough in allowing arbitrary letter separators. Am I being silly in writing outpu datatypes for those we use which match the MS XML Data standard? The following annotated sample gives an idea of what our output looks like, more examples at and I'm really interested in having them criticised. 0 65,535 -32,768 32,767 0 4,294,967,295 -2,147,483,648 2,147,483,647 1.7E-308 1.7E308 0 4,294,967,295 0 4,294,967,295 0 65,535 Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Sat Jun 5 23:59:02 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge In-Reply-To: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> References: <37591721.87D330C8@mitre.org> Message-ID: At 8:25 -0400 5/6/99, Roger Costello wrote: >It looks simple. It is deceptively challenging. > >An XML document stores database data as follows: > > > > > > > > > ... >So the HTML table >should look like this: > > col1 col2 > A C > E S ... Hmmm It's not quite applicable, but this is very close to the kind of layout problems we solve in our report writer. I found XSL syntax too complex for our purposes (machines and humans writing, machine parsing back into report definitions). The following annotated sample gives an idea of what our output looks like, more examples at and I'm really interested in having them criticised.
Carey Marion Fixed Text Dobson Sharon Fixed Text ... Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sun Jun 6 05:18:36 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> <37591984.32F697C5@w3.org> Message-ID: <008701beafcb$5d1483c0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > > It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not > > retrievable by the HTTP protocol. > > It would be, but no such examples were given. Here are two: In http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-rdf-syntax/ there is the example of using http://www.w3.org/staffId/85740 to refer to a person. In http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xslt-19990421, http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 is used as the namespace. Admittedly, I have less of a problem with a latter case. I would imagine that soon there will be some document placed at that URI (whether a machine readable schema or not) describing the namespace. I have a bigger problem with the former, as I have outlined previously on this list. To raise again the sample problem I raised before: what would it mean to use RDF to specifier the Creator of http://www.w3.org/staffId/85740? Does it mean The Creator :-) or the creator of the retrievable resource (if any) at that URI? James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Sun Jun 6 06:13:56 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:49 2004 Subject: schema output for critique Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF68E@RED-MSG-08> Looks generally good to me. There is not yet a settled solution to local scoping of element names in the schema proposals, so you must either wait, use attributes, or hope that no clashes occur in your databases. You should also be aware that the working draft has no guarantees of stability. Regarding the specific datatypes you define, you show min and max values in some cases, and in those you include formats that might cause trouble: "1.7E308" might be better as "1.7E+308" and the several that have commas in them would face fewer internationalization problems if you omit the commas. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Sun Jun 6 06:15:31 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: 2 questions about XML validating parsers. Message-ID: <002601beafd3$e4cf3e60$56d4d6cf@g0f2n0> Hello. 1. entities preprocessor. -------------------------------- I found that for some XML parsers ( like Expat, for example, but not only Expat ;-) processing entities ( especialy PERefs ) is not a kind of basic functionality. >From my point of view, if parsing/validating XML is like compiling C, expanding entities and resolving external references is kind of thing that C preprocessor does. Given the shape of existing validating parsers, for me it makes sence to write an XML preprocessor, that will resolve all the PERefs, 'include' all external DTD's and will produce an 'entities free' XML stream ( like C preprocessor does). Even this task looks trivial, there are some interesting twists there, like efficiency, whitespace / formatting control e t.c., so the question is: Is there any tool that looks like 'XML preprocessor' ? In other words - is there some tool I can use to : - take a complex XML documents contaning complicated entities e t.c. - produce an XML stream that whould be acceptable by Expat ;-) 2. The problem of 'sharing-very-close-but-not-exactly-the-same' XML documents. -------------------------------- If I have I still need to decalre Valid. Is there any *practical* reason for such a restriction? I mean that when somebody creates some DTD with element A of type ANY it means that the structure of the body of element A is absolutely unpredictable ( otherwise, why declaring it ANY ? ). Or there is some other practical reason to declare some element to be ANY ? So on one hand we have 'the body of this element is unpredictable' on another hand we are placing some extra restriction that is stronger than 'just be well-formed'. Unfortunately, I don't understand what is good with that extra restriction in practice, not in theory. Theory seems to be : "there should be no undeclared elements in any part of the valid XML document". ( BTW why not? What practical problem it may cause to have undeclared elements in that ANY part ( and only there...) ? ) What I do understand is the problem that such restriction introduces on practice. A couple of weeks ago I asked how can I solve some practical problem that I have - when 2 different companies are exchanging the 'very-close-but-not-the-same' documents. > The only difference between A-documents and > B-documents is that A-documents have > element that is specific to company A > and B-documents have element specific > to company B - the rest of elements and > attributes are the same for both companies. > > Now our companies decided to exchange > their documents. As a solution they may write > XSL stylesheets, or ( maybe) use entities > to remove A1 elemets and B1 elements. > I see no other ways to workaround this > situation and both are a bit complicated. > > The problem here is to hide some part of > XML document from the validation process. You could do write a single DTD with the following: and then have each company define their company-specific elements in company-specific DTDs, which would be included through the internal subset. This is open to abuse, though, as a valid document could contain any elements, not just the intended, company-specific elements, in the COMPANY_SPECIFIC element. However, if the documents are machine generated, this is not a problem. (By the way, EMPTY and ANY(THING) are valid only in content model definitions, not attributes.) So when one company introduces some new tag A1 the appropriate ;-) should be populated to the DTD's that are used by another company. Now what if we have 3 companies? 10? More? ( And we *will* have such problems with XSA and XSA-alike networks ). All those problems would simply disappear if just allowing ANY to be *realy* ANY ( it means that Validating parsers should allow undeclared elements to appear in the body of element of type ANY ). ---------------- So the question is: what is a practical reason for not making ANY to be realy ANY ? ---------------- ( Yes, we can always write yet another XSL stylesheet for rendering those 'very-close-documents' to each other, and because documents are closea - those stylesheets would be easy to write. What I don't understand is why should we write some extra code if just allowing ANY to be ANY would allow *not* to write extra code at all... ) Maybe I'm missing something again - I'l appreciate any feedback. Rgds.Paul. paul@pault.com www.pault.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 6 11:17:28 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: Addressing the Enterprise: Why the Web needs Groves Message-ID: <375A3B16.635FAB31@prescod.net> I'm posting the first few sections of http://www.prescod.net/groves/shorttut/ I've rewritten a lot of it to demonstrate the importance to the Web. I am hoping to generate some discussion on XML-DEV and xlxp. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Introduction This paper is a high level introduction to the grove paradigm. Just as SGML was a hidden jewel buried in among the ISO standards for screwdriver heads, groves are another well-kept secret. The time has come to make "groves for the Web". This document should be relevant to the people that would do the specifying and coding to make groves available on the Web, but also to technically-oriented managers that are not interested in the fine details. This document is intended to explain the importance of the grove paradigm to the It is intended to clarify in people's minds what the result of parsing an SGML or XML document should look like. Some variation on the grove model could be imagined, but the basics of the model seem fundamental and unavoidable to me: for instance, W3C's DOM reflects the same basic concepts. Groves were invented to solve the problems that had become revealed at a particular point in the development of the SGML family of standards. XML has reached the same point so the time is right to popularize the grove idea. Please send me your comments on this document. It will eventually become an ISOGEN technical paper, but it is still rough. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2. Background 2.1 The Problem In the early and mid-1990s, the ISO groups that were responsible for the SGML family of standards realized that they had a large problem. The people working on the DSSSL and HyTime standards found that they had slightly different ideas of the abstract structure of an SGML document. Understanding an SGML document's structure is easy for simple things, but there are many issues that are quite complex. For instance, it is not clear whether comments should be available for a DSSSL spec. to work on, or whether they should be addressable by hyperlinks. It isn't clear whether it should be possible to address every character, or only non-contiguous spans of characters. Should it be possible to address and process tokens in an attribute value or only character spans? Should it be possible to address markup declarations? XLink and XSL must solve all of the same issues. Although this paper will discuss many problem domains, the reader should keep in mind that addressing is the central one. If you cannot address information (e.g. through a URL) then you cannot do anything else you need to it: such as retrieve it, bind methods to it, attach metadata to it, apply access control lists to it, render it, work with it in a programming language and so forth. Addressing is the key. Value follows naturally and immediately. The reason that addressing into XML (and other data formats) is ill-defined is because the XML specification speaks of the syntax of the XML language, not the abstract, addressible objects encoded in the document. Linking and processing are done in terms of some data model, not in terms of syntax. When you make a link between two elements, you are not linking in terms of the character positions of the start- and end-tags in an SGML or XML entity. You are linking in terms of abstract notions such as "element", "attributes" and "parse tree". The role of an XML parser is to throw away the syntax and rebuild the logical ("abstract") view. The role of a linking engine (such as a web browser) is to make links in terms of that logical view. The role of a stylesheet engine is to apply formatting in terms of that logical view. Unless stylesheet languages, text databases, formatting engines and editors share a view, processing will be unreliable and complicated. It is not very common for XML and SGML applications and toolkits to provide all of the information necessary for building many classes of sophisticated applications, such as editors. There is not even a standardized way for an toolkit to express what information from the SGML/XML document it will preserve. Even if two toolkits preserve exactly the same information, it is quite possible that they use different terminology to describe the information. In some cases, APIs might be identical except that they use different structures to organize the information! But those one or two features could make navigating the APIs very different. In the software engineering world we have a technique for avoiding this sort of problem: modelling. Using languages like the Unified Modelling Language (UML) we can build sophisticated, intricate models of the world that can be independently implemented and yet interoperable. I can hand a model of a human resources application to a developer on the other side of the planet and we can build logically compatible applications. Of course UML is at a very high level. The precise expression of an object in a particular programming language or system is not fixed by UML. The UML is a mathematical expression of the entities and relationships in a problem domain. It doesn't usually translate directly into code or APIs. That is why we also have to use more concrete object description languages such as IDL, ODL and STEP Express. 2.2 Why Not the DOM The W3C has partially addressed this situation with a specification called the Document Object Model (DOM). Unfortunately the DOM is not really an object model in the abstract sense. It is rather just a collection of IDL interfaces and some descriptions of how they relate. This is different from an abstract object model because it is too flexible in some places and not flexible enough in others. The DOM is too flexible in that it is not rigorous enough to be a basis for addressing. For instance the DOM says that a string of four characters could be broken up into multiple text nodes or treated as a single one. If we describe addresses in terms of DOM text nodes, those addresses will be interpreted differently by various DOM implementations. This is one reason that XPointer and XSL are not defined in terms of the DOM. This weakness of the DOM is fatal for using it for addressing but it is also annoying for programmers. In some cases they must write special code to work with documents that have different text breaking algorithms because the DOM has given implementors too much flexibility here. It puts their ease of implementation above the ease of coding for DOM users. In other ways te DOM is not flexible enough. One important weakness is that it is defined in IDL which does not permit much variation in language mappings and bindings. We have found this very limiting in the Python and Perl worlds. With these high level languages there are more convenient ways of mapping the high level XML concepts into APIs than the ways dictated by CORBA. If we use these ways instead of the DOM ways, however, our APIs are conformant to the DOM only in spirit, not in terms of the formal detail of the specification. 2.3 Defining views The DOM has a more important inflexibility. It would be useful for the programmer using the DOM to be able to define whether all adjacent text nodes are merged or not. There is a "normalize" method that attempts to provide this feature that method actually modifies the tree. All viewers must see the same view. Another useful view is one in which every character is a separate node. That view allows us to address individual characters very easily. Another view might provide DTD information for a document. Yet another view would provide linking information. Still another view would attach RDF properties to the DOM. We can also make views that are simpler than the default DOM view. We could have a view that got rid of CDATA nodes and treated them just as text. Another view might remove processing instructions based on the principle that many applications do not use them. It would also be very nice to be able to remove "insignificant" whitespace from a view. The W3C is working on a subset of XML to make XML easier to process for parsers but there is no such spec to make simpler DOMs for application writers. Let's take this back to the addressing realm for a second. Given all of these views of a document, we could do things like query for the node with the "author" RDF property with value "Paul" or for the node that is reference by a particular hyperlink or for the third character of an element and so forth. There is an important truth here. Every time we create a new specification built on XML, we implicitly define new properties that should be attached to the nodes: almost a whole new data model! Consider a document type based not only on XML but also on XLink, namespaces and RDF. That document has many different views. Here are some obvious ones: * First there is the low-level XML view. It would have elements, attributes, characters and so forth. * Then there is the namespace view built on top of that. A "namespace engine" would add some namespace information to the tree. It would probably hide namespace attributes that were visible in the lower view. * Then there is yet another view that adds hyperlinking information. The engine that provides this view can let us know whether a node is an anchor or a link. On top of that there could be a view built specifically for that document type. It would understand the constructs in the document type and make them available to a programmer as objects with properties. Let's step back for a minute again. If we can make all of these views available to the programmer in some simple, consistent way, then we could surely make them all available to people doing querying and addressing also. That means that we could make a query language that could do queries based on constructs from all four levels! We could also easily define query languages that were specialized and optimized for a particular level. The way we currently handle this is through different "levels" of the DOM. The second one is being worked on right now. These levels tend to lag behind the specifications that they are supposed to work with by months or years. There is a DOM for XML, HTML and CSS, but nothing for namespaces, RDF, XLink, XSL queries or XHTML. There is a single group within the W3C that will be responsible for building all of these "levels" of the DOM. This group of intelligent, well-meaning people is the most fundamental bottleneck in the standards world today. Even if all of the DOM people gave up their day jobs and became full-time DOM builders they could never keep up with the amount of innovation occurring within the W3C. Consider then, that the problem is in no way limited to the W3C. People are building little XML-based languages with their own data models all over the Web. A central API bottleneck is not inconvenient: it is impossible. The DOM cannot be a universal API for all XML-based languages. The XML Information Set project is similar to the DOM except that it works in terms of abstractions instead of APIs. That is an important first step. But the Information Set is designed only for a single view of XML with certain optional features. It does not seem at this time that it will be possible for "end-users" (programmers and query-writers) to tweak the views. It also does not seem that the model is designed to be extensible to completely new views. In other words it provides the very bottom layer but does not define the infrastructure to build the upper ones. In the ISO world we solve this problem by farming out the definition of data models. A "property set" is a formal model for a view of an XML document. A property set is half way between an abstract, unimplementable UML data model and a narrowly defined IDL definition. It speaks in terms of the higher level concepts that are the basis of hypermedia and so can be implemented conveniently in high level programming languages. The important thing about property sets is that they embed and embody the requirements necessary for a data model to be useful in a hypermedia context. That means that every node in the grove is addressable. It is easy to construct an address for any given node (for instance the character under a mouse click) or node list (e.g. a selected list of characters). 2.4 Hypermedia to the Max Now we get to the really exciting thing about property sets. You can build property sets for views of XML documents. Those are extremely useful and powerful. Even more powerful, though, are property sets for things that are not even XML. SQL databases and OLE objects can have property sets. LaTeX files can have property sets. People have defined experimental property sets for CSS, CGM and for something as abstract as legal documents. After all, a property set is just a simple data model. You could define UML models for all of those types. Defining a property set is no harder. But property sets have a huge benefit over UML: once you define a property set for a data object type, that data object becomes addressible. This means that every subcomponent of every data object in an enterprise is potentially addressable. The important point is that you do not have to convert all of your data resources into XML or HTML to make them addressable. You may need to turn them into XML or HTML to render or transfer them between machines, but there are many other things that we need to be able to do with addressable resources. We can attach access control lists to to them, make hyperlinks to them, attach metadata to them and so forth. Some "XML people" have this idea already but they express it in terms of "building a DOM" over some non-XML resource. The idea is right but the expression of the idea is wrong. The logic goes this way: We want an addressable data model for the resource. XML has a data model. Therefore let's use the XML data model for the resource. This model seems logical but it is inefficient both in terms of computer time and programmer time. If the underlying object is a relational database then it makes no sense to take numbers (for example) and encode them as strings so that the client application can unencode them back to numbers. Similarly, it makes no sense to turn a database record into an XML element so that the final application can think of it as a record again. If all you need to do is address a database record then what you want to do is the minimum required to turn a database record into something addressable. The grove model is designed so that defining a property set for the database is the minimum you have to do. In this case you can forget about XML altogether! In buzzword-speak this is "addressing the enterprise." Every data object in an organization from the smallest non-profit to the largest multinational can be addressed through a single data model and query language. You might also think of these as meta-models and meta-query languages in that the grove model and its associated query language give you a framework for defining the details of more precise models and richer query languages. Let me say again that rendering the document is another matter altogether. Given an address, the easiest way to render the object might be via XML. For a database record this might be the case. For a slide within a PowerPoint document, however, the easiest way to render it might be through OLE. Addressing is separate from rendering. Groves allow you to say that you want to see the slide. OLE or XML/XSL might provide the technology that you need to actually see the slide. Without groves, hypermedia addressing is very poorly defined. For instance, how do you, today, make a hyperlink to a particular frame in an MPEG movie, or a particular note in a midi sequence? How would you extract that information in a stylesheet (for instance for sequencing a multimedia hyperdocument). It makes no sense to address in terms of bytes, because often a single logical entity, like a frame, is actually spread across several bytes and they may not be contiguous. Addressing in terms of characters would make even less sense because MPEG movies and midi sequences are not character based. The web solves this problem by inventing a new "query language" (in the form of extensions to URLs called "fragment identifiers") for each data type. This more or less works, but it leads to a proliferation of similar, but incompatible query languages doing the same basic thing. These languages have different syntax and underlying models. This brings us to the next point: implementation. Under today's W3C way of doing things you would implement a hypermedia browser (e.g. SMIL) by hard-coding support for each different type of query for each type of playable object. If resources hyperlinked to each other through these fragment identifers, the implementation engine would have to implement separate query languages for each fragment identifier type. That is an annoying waste of time. Consider, the issue of metadata attached to parts of media objects through links. For instance I might add a title to an MPEG frame so that I could locate it later. Or I could add a pop-up-video style annotation. Usually this would be implemented as some sort of on-disk or in-memory database. In one column of a record you would have the properties that you want to attach (expressed somehow). On the other side you need to have things to attach them to. We need a generic term for "things that you can address within media objects." Generically, we could call these "nodes" and "node lists." As soon as you make that leap to describing the targets of references generically, regardless of media type, you have essentially reinvented groves. It follows that standards like RDF implicitly depend upon a (currently underdefined) concept similar to groves. Instead of reinventing them, however, you have the option of using an international standard that specifies them! I hope that one day there will also be a W3C standard that does something similar. More at: http://www.prescod.net/groves/shorttut/ -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 6 11:34:38 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: RDF and Resources Message-ID: <375A3D93.4B8E34D2@prescod.net> RDF's definition of resource seems to be incompatible with the URI specification that it references: > All things being described by RDF expressions are called resources. > A resource may be an entire Web page; such as the HTML document > "http://www.w3.org/Overview.html" for example. A resource may be a > part of a Web page; e.g. a specific HTML or XML element within the > document source. A resource may also be a whole collection of pages; > e.g. an entire Web site. A resource may also be an object that is > not directly accessible via the Web; e.g. a printed book. Resources > are always named by URIs plus optional anchor ids (see [URI]). According to RFC 2396, a resource is something addressable by a URI (without fragment identifier) -- a complete HTML or XML document, not a part of it. Also, I find it interesting to note that RDF does not seem to be able to attach metadata to components of things that are not XML: frames of a video, records in a database, paragraphs in a Word document and so forth. We need the ability to do so. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Sun Jun 6 12:16:01 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: RDF and Resources In-Reply-To: <375A3D93.4B8E34D2@prescod.net> Message-ID: Interesting point. The RDF spec says... > > not directly accessible via the Web; e.g. a printed book. Resources > > are always named by URIs plus optional anchor ids (see [URI]). ...when it perhaps ought to say "always named by URI References", per section 4.1 of the RFC. I believe this is a confusion rather than a bug in the spec, in that nothing I can find in either doc tells us that the things picked out using URI References, ie. the #'d view into the retrieved object, cannot themselves be resources. If they have identity (cue separate debate) they're resources. And hence RDF describable. Some excerpts from ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2396.txt Uniform Resource Identifiers (URI) provide a simple and extensible means for identifying a resource. [...] Resource A resource can be anything that has identity. Familiar examples include an electronic document, an image, a service (e.g., "today's weather report for Los Angeles"), and a collection of other resources. [...] 4. URI References The term "URI-reference" is used here to denote the common usage of a resource identifier. A URI reference may be absolute or relative, and may have additional information attached in the form of a fragment identifier. However, "the URI" that results from such a reference includes only the absolute URI after the fragment identifier (if any) is removed and after any relative URI is resolved to its absolute form. Although it is possible to limit the discussion of URI syntax and semantics to that of the absolute result, most usage of URI is within general URI references, and it is impossible to obtain the URI from such a reference without also parsing the fragment and resolving the relative form. URI-reference = [ absoluteURI | relativeURI ] [ "#" fragment ] The syntax for relative URI is a shortened form of that for absolute URI, where some prefix of the URI is missing and certain path components ("." and "..") have a special meaning when, and only when, interpreting a relative path. The relative URI syntax is defined in Section 5. [...] the optional fragment identifier, separated from the URI by a crosshatch ("#") character, consists of additional reference information to be interpreted by the user agent after the retrieval action has been successfully completed. As such, it is not part of a URI, but is often used in conjunction with a URI. So... on my reading... --- the URI is the bit before the # in a URI or URI Reference --- the entire 'thing' picked out by a URI Reference might still be a resource and have 'identity' (and might eg. have a first-class URI in another scheme, eg uuid: or urn:). Even if just a section of a larger object (video frame etc). --- for any URI reference, there are potentially two objects (resources) implicated; the one picked out by the URI proper, and the one picked out by the URI reference, if there is an optional '#'. RDF uses the latter when the #foo is present. The Web doesn't give a name to the relationship between these two things, though the Web Characterisation activity seems to be making a good start in that direction. I see nothing in this to suggest that that RDF can't describe bits of non-XML content, since those components for eg might well have URIs (eg. urn, uuid...) of their own. What I do see is a rather ugly glitch (doubtless motivated but still scary) in the section of the URI RFC which defines fragment identifiers: 4.1 tells us: The semantics of a fragment identifier is a property of the data resulting from a retrieval action, regardless of the type of URI used in the reference. Therefore, the format and interpretation of fragment identifiers is dependent on the media type [RFC2046] of the retrieval result. This is gross as it relativises the semantics of frag identifiers to the mime time of the object as retrieved. Since that is itself a (possibly time-sensitive) function of content-negotiation between client and server, fragment identification issues get tangled up with possibility of the server offering multiple (language/format) negotiable versions or renderings (or manifestations -- pick your terminology) of the same object. When this wierdness in web architecture is cleared up, and the different renderings available (eg. over http, http-ng) are more explicitly differentiated, RDF and XML will be living in a happier less ambiguous world. Dan On Sun, 6 Jun 1999, Paul Prescod wrote: > RDF's definition of resource seems to be incompatible with the URI > specification that it references: > > > All things being described by RDF expressions are called resources. > > A resource may be an entire Web page; such as the HTML document > > "http://www.w3.org/Overview.html" for example. A resource may be a > > part of a Web page; e.g. a specific HTML or XML element within the > > document source. A resource may also be a whole collection of pages; > > e.g. an entire Web site. A resource may also be an object that is > > not directly accessible via the Web; e.g. a printed book. Resources > > are always named by URIs plus optional anchor ids (see [URI]). > > According to RFC 2396, a resource is something addressable by a URI > (without fragment identifier) -- a complete HTML or XML document, not a > part of it. > > Also, I find it interesting to note that RDF does not seem to be able to > attach metadata to components of things that are not XML: frames of a > video, records in a database, paragraphs in a Word document and so forth. > We need the ability to do so. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Sun Jun 6 13:53:53 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. Message-ID: <004501beb00b$92ac0b30$1df96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Jonathan Borden >Why ought namespaces be dead? Is Biztalk that important? Just don't use >Biztalk or the XML Data namespace if you don't want it, this is a free WWW! Unlike Steve Newcomb and like Tim Bray, I think namespaces do solve a different problem to architectural forms. Namespaces provide a way to treat a local name as a public identifier. I like namespaces; they are convenient but XML needs to have available ASAP something to prevent them from being used by vendors to capture data. The big door that architectural forms opened to allow multiple schemas operating on the same data: whether for structure description, data description, competitive schema languages, or any other reason. All along people have perceived clearly that the namespaces were (if tied directly to schema specifications) a way to prevent "open" extensiblility and instead to capture data to single, probably proprietary schema tools and systems. The extensibility of XML not only refers to adding new elements, but in preventing data capture (this is why PIs have targets, for example.) The stylesheet PI is good, because multiple PIs are possible: you dont need to generate different data depending on the other end (in the pleasant future). Tieing particular schemas to namespaces is bad, becuase it forces a document to use XML data or XML schema only: we are right back in slack old HTML land. It is disgusting. >... You can always use a "urn:" based namespace URI to prevent >linking the namespace to a schema. But then I still have to reprocess my names to if I want to send BizTalk or use XML Schema. > One issue to consider, however, is the impact of either mechanism of >schema/namespace association on how a document containing elements from >multiple namespaces ought be validated. I think the open/closed content model directly impacts that: some places the schema will allow you to extend without being particularly interested in what happens. This is pretty much in architectural-forms territory. I cannot see why a schema-selecting PI could not also allow architectural-forms, but that is not a requirement for this problem. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pgrosso at arbortext.com Sun Jun 6 18:45:38 1999 From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990606114800.006ca32c@pophost.arbortext.com> At 10:13 1999 06 05 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 10:10 AM 6/5/99 -0500, WorldNet wrote: >>I've noticed that Netscape Communicator 4.x ignores
and haven't tried >>same with IE4.x as I've upgraded to IE5. What techniques are going to be >>developed to account for this backwards compatibility issue > >Admittedly a kludge, but "
" (note the space) works just >fine.

kind of works, but in legacy browsers actually >inserts *two* blank lines (sigh). -T. But getting the space into
and having it stay there through round trips in XML-aware editors and such is not always possible, and

doesn't really work, as Tim says. However, something like:
(any attribute value assignment would do) works in most HTML browsers (certainly in NS4.x and IE 3-5) and is something that can be done (and will not get undone) by any editing tool. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pgrosso at arbortext.com Sun Jun 6 19:18:01 1999 From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: XCatalog (now XMLCatalog) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990606115024.006ca32c@pophost.arbortext.com> At 16:03 1999 06 05 +0800, James Tauber wrote: >> I thought the idea of using sysIDs with publicIDs in the XML doc instance >> was kinda screwy... Who's idea was that anyway? > >I think some people felt that have just publicIDs would cause problems >because there was no widespread resolution mechanism deployed on the Web[1]. >As XML 1.0 stands, people can use publicIDs if they want to but must provide >a sysID fall-back. > >James > >[1] of course, my DELEGATE extension to catalogs was designed to provide >exactly such a mechanism. Yes, and the SGML Open (now OASIS) TR9401:1997 catalog resolution [2] includes a version of the DELEGATE entry type, thanks to James and others. [2] http://www.oasis-open.org/html/techpubs.htm#entity xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 6 19:25:41 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: RDF and Resources References: Message-ID: <375AAA68.F67EA2D6@prescod.net> Dan Brickley wrote: > > [...] > the optional fragment identifier, separated from > the URI by a crosshatch ("#") character, consists of additional > reference information to be interpreted by the user agent after the > retrieval action has been successfully completed. As such, it is not > part of a URI, but is often used in conjunction with a URI. > > So... on my reading... > > --- the URI is the bit before the # in a URI or URI Reference > --- the entire 'thing' picked out by a URI Reference might still be a > resource and have 'identity' (and might eg. have a first-class > URI in another scheme, eg uuid: or urn:). Even if just a section > of a larger object (video frame etc). At the very best we can say that the thing following the # might or might not represent "somehing with identity." There are no constraints on it. It could be used to attach a stylesheet or make the background color of the displayed object blue. It is merely "additional reference information." Therefore I think that RDF is correct to limit itself to the two Web-language where the referenced objects have identity (even if the details are still being worked out in the Information Set project). I think that even in the XML realm there is a problem. If XPointer-NG continues to allow spans to be addresssed as first class objects (a mistake IMHO) then that would mean that every possible start,end pair in an XML document is a separate "resource". Iterating over these "resources" within a document would be an impossibly slow operation. A better model (that they will hopefully adopt) would be that spans address NODE LISTS (not "span resources"). Then an RDF attachment could be interpreted as shorthand for attaching to each node in the list. After all, we desperately need this shorthand and it makes iteration easy. Resources would correspond to what we think of as nodes: elements, attributes, characters and so forth. > When this wierdness in web architecture is cleared up, and the different > renderings available (eg. over http, http-ng) are more explicitly > differentiated, RDF and XML will be living in a happier less ambiguous > world. Agreed. Insofar as the grove model was designed precisely to clear up an identical weirdness in SGML and HyTime, I tend to think that it is the best place to start in fixing the Web. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at catapultt.com Sun Jun 6 20:18:27 1999 From: carl at catapultt.com (Carl Schei) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: [Bug] Inline DTD's and XML4J ? Message-ID: <003501beb049$96cea9a0$786f6f6f@womble> Hi There, This is my first posting to XML-Dev. Great mailing list. I have been using the IBM XML4J Parser (v2.0.9) class for just a short while. The client has requested that we inline the DTD's instead of making them external. I resorted to the following sample code, Parser p = new Parser(getDefaultDTDPath(), this, null); DTD aDTD = null ; try { BufferedReader b = new BufferedReader(new FileReader("SampleDTD.dtd")) ; aDTD = p.readDTDStream(b) ; b.close() ; } catch (IOException ex) { } aDTD.setName("CustomerDataResponse") ; StringWriter aWriter = new StringWriter(); try { aDTD.print(aWriter) ; } catch (IOException ex) {} System.out.println(aWriter.toString()) ; Used on the following XML file (with inline DTD), ]> Produces the results, ]> Note that there is no line, Which totally invalidates the DTD. Now the interesting thing is that if I duplicate this line in the original DTD, i.e., ]> It produces the desired results!! Anyone found similiar results? I can't think of anything that I'm doing wrong. Thanks, Carl Schei Catapult Technology, Inc. (630) 515-3670 phone carl@catapultt.com http://www.catapultt.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990606/0386c3c1/attachment.htm From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 7 03:03:44 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: XML Inclusion Proposal References: <3.0.1.32.19990601120415.00e6c820@tiac.net> Message-ID: <375B179F.4B70FEB0@prescod.net> "Joshua E. Smith" wrote: > > An interesting philosophical question, first: if I make this inclusion > mechanism available to authors of documents in my XML conformant language > (which is not, I expect, a language which will be useful to any XML > processor other than my own), would it be reasonable to omit support for > general entity references? I'm reluctant to encourage half-way support of the XML specification. One day there will be a standardized XML subset that does not include general entities and I would be more comfortable then. > Question 2: I think I understand your intent, but just to be sure: what do > you *expect* the included document to look like? Does it start with: > > > > Would you expect it to have a DOCTYPE, or not? Any element in any XML document can be included. If you link to the full document then it should be interpreted as an inclusion of the root element (i.e. not the DOCTYPE and XML/encoding declaration, if present) > I suspect I could just make my own rules for my authors (e.g., the included > document must be well formed, must not includes a doctype, etc.), but I was > wondering if you had a particular set of conventions in mind. In > particular, a well formed document has only one root node, which might be > kind of inconvenient in a lot of cases (take your copyright example: I > might want to always include both a > blahblah and if I require that the > included doc is well formed, I'd have to wrap those together, right?). Yes, but the specification allows you to make an inclusion link that ONLY brings in the copyright and GPL, but not the wrapper element. > Question 3: I'm not familiar enough with the XLink/XPointer specs to > understand this part: > > >Source Anchor: > > > >The source anchor may be identified as an anchor described in a locator > >with the role "source". It must address a single node in the same > >document as the link. If an inline link has no locator named "source", > >then the local resource serves as the source anchor. > > > >Target Anchor: > > > >The target anchor may be identified by a locator with the role > >"content". If the link has no such locator but it has only one single > >remote resource then that resource may be used as the content anchor. > > Can you give examples of each kind of inclusion this can lead to? I'm > having a lot of trouble with understanding what these two paragraphs mean, > exactly. Here is the basic XLink data model: link=role, anchor+ anchor=role, href So an inclusion link looks like: link = role, (source, target) source="source", href (to a single node in the same document as the link) target="content", href (to any node or node list in any document anywhere) Inline links implicitly have an anchor which is the linking element itself, like this or . When the inclusion specification sees a simple link, it presumes the content to be the source anchor and the referenced nodes to be the target. Out-of-line links do not treat the linking element as an anchor and instead link two other things. In the case of an out-of-line link I don't know which anchor is the source and which is the content so you have to say explicitly. > Does this mean that I can include some miscellaneous nodes buried in the > included document? For example, can I have a document license.xml with > various licenses, and then include the one in particular that I need by > using these anchors? How would that look? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 7 04:02:51 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: Saving XML document References: Message-ID: <375B28C4.F9415B04@pacbell.net> Navreena Gill wrote: > > Hello List, > I am using SUN parser to parse an XML, modify it and write it back. > I use Write function of XMLDocument with UTF-8 encoding. But the file it > produces has all those squere boxes after each line break. I can see two things this might be. First is a bug that's been fixed in the latest release (TR2, available now) where writing text didn't actually use the platform line end; so, on Win32, rather than seeing a CRLF you'd see just a LF. Second, which may be less likely in this case, is that you need to be usin an editor which really talks UTF-8 !! > How do I get > rid of those? These boxes show up while opening the saved file in notepad. > In wordpad it is fine. I have tried using xmlWriteChildren with pretty > printing setting, this also does not work. Get the TR2 release of Sun's package, and see if that fixes the CRLF issue for you. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 7 04:57:39 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:50 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF659@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <375B359C.C9FA76D7@pacbell.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > In this list and in others, there have been strong and conflicting > opinions expressed on what would be the best behavior of a parser, and no > settled standard exists. I can't buy this. The W3C specifications for XML and for namespaces are quite settled ... and _neither_ one places a requirement that declared "xmlns*" attributes must have "#FIXED" default values. In fact, the statements that exist make it clear that from the XML 1.0 syntax point of view, "xmlns*" are like other attributes ... which may be defaulted or not, and hence may omit (or include) "#FIXED" depending on what a given DTD author chooses to do. > I do not, in fact, know that the IE5 > rules are the ultimately best rules; what we can say in their favor is that > because they are conservative, they do not encourage the creation of > documents that are accepted by MSXML and yet are later rejected by > conformant parsers after standards have been worked out. Sound like you're saying it's conservative to treat MSXML as the holder of the standards, rather than the W3C documents. That's not a very popular attitude outside of Redmond! In a standards context, "conservative" means implementing only (and exactly!) what the specifications say. I don't think this is what Microsoft has done in this case. Speculating on the reasons why may be amusing, but I'd rather see this bug fixed (soon!) instead. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 7 05:05:27 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: xsl editor needed References: <188D20A88142D11190E900A0C906BBD3015C5534@venus.portal.com> Message-ID: <375B3776.66107224@pacbell.net> Steve Schow wrote: > > Frankly, what the world is going to need are tools that you use to > "styleize" XML.... Not "XSL Editors". It may be that XSL is being used > under the covers to "style-ize", and as such....you would effectively be > editing XSL with the tool. But rather than make a tool that just makes it > easy to edit XSL....how about a tool that you use to think graphically about > the layout you desire and then it figures out what XSL to use? Saaaay ... how about a CSS editor? :-) I looked at Mozilla M6 and its XML/CSS support, and was quite pleased. I can even use parts of XLink to make URLs work, though I don't quite have the pointers changing correctly when they go over those links. Yes, yes -- CSS doesn't let you restructure your XML, can't solve the table of contents or indexing problems, can't construct internal links. That can be done on servers if needed, or with an XSL first pass, and isn't always needed anyway. But even if you think that XSL will be the One True Stylesheet, you'd have to acknowledge there's a need for something to handle the formatting objects. And it should be straightforward to make that module handle CSS along with FOs. (Whatever you do, don't insist on rendering to HTML!!) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 7 05:12:37 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU References: <3.0.32.19990605101325.01616ec0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <375B3924.BE0295C8@pacbell.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > Admittedly a kludge, but "
" (note the space) works just > fine.

kind of works, but in legacy browsers actually > inserts *two* blank lines (sigh). -T. I think someone at W3C looked around and conclused that "
" (and "
" etc) was a good solution for (X)HTML if you were willing to punt on version 2 browsers. At any rate it's pretty widely accepted. It's to avoid this particular issue that Sun's XML package prints empty tags with the otherwise unnecessary space before the "/>", in fact! Paul Grosso wrote: > >
Hmm, interesting. I'd not seen that one before. I wonder how widely that one is accepted? - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From michael_champion at ameritech.net Mon Jun 7 05:50:51 1999 From: michael_champion at ameritech.net (Mike Champion) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Addressing the Enterprise: Why the Web needs Groves Message-ID: <375B428B.B05A0B41@ameritech.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > The W3C has partially addressed this situation with a specification called > the Document Object Model (DOM). Unfortunately the DOM is not really an > object model in the abstract sense. It is rather just a collection of IDL > interfaces and some descriptions of how they relate. This is different > from an abstract object model because it is too flexible in some places > and not flexible enough in others. This was the subject of much discussion on the DOM interest group about a year ago. The resolution was that the InfoSet WG, not the DOM, has responsibility for defining the "structure model" of XML (which I think is the same as the "abstract object model"). When there is consensus on what *the* abstract object model for XML is, the DOM will evolve to reflect this consensus. > 2.3 Defining views > > The DOM has a more important inflexibility. It would be useful for the > programmer using the DOM to be able to define whether all adjacent text > nodes are merged or not. There is a "normalize" method that attempts to > provide this feature that method actually modifies the tree. All viewers > must see the same view. Another useful view is one in which every > character is a separate node. That view allows us to address individual > characters very easily. Another view might provide DTD information for a > document. Yet another view would provide linking information. Still > another view would attach RDF properties to the DOM. > This seems like quite a useful idea. Can anyone suggest an API for this, perhaps Document::setView(int viewFlag) where viewFlag is one of NORMALIZE, ONECHARPERNODE, etc.? Or perhaps the NodeIterators in the DOM Level 2 working draft could have factory methods that make it easy to present such views? (The latter is more in the spirit of DOM Level 2, I personally believe). Likewise, various Level 2 extensions are being considered to present a view of the text underneath an element that eliminates the burden of navigating each TextNode individually. > The W3C > is working on a subset of XML to make XML easier to process for parsers > but there is no such spec to make simpler DOMs for application writers. FWIW, There is a strong sentiment among DOM people to defer working on a simpler subset of the DOM until a simpler subset of XML is defined. > The way we currently handle this is through different "levels" of the DOM. > The second one is being worked on right now. These levels tend to lag > behind the specifications that they are supposed to work with by months or > years. There is a DOM for XML, HTML and CSS, but nothing for namespaces, > RDF, XLink, XSL queries or XHTML. There is a single group within the W3C > that will be responsible for building all of these "levels" of the DOM. > This group of intelligent, well-meaning people is the most fundamental > bottleneck in the standards world today. Well, that's gonna help me sleep at night! ;~) Seriously, I think this is an important misconception. I believe I speak for most people involved in the DOM in asserting that the RDF, XLink, XHTML, etc. definers,implementers, and/or users can and should develop DOM extensions of their own to avoid this very bottleneck. DOM Level 2 will contain mechanisms to make it easier for independent groups to develop APIs that provide convenient, powerful interfaces to the semantics of specific XML applications that presumably are built upon or in some way compatible with the DOM Core. For example, a "groves" API that extends the DOM to provide the features Paul Prescod discusses could be defined by essentially anyone, submitted to the W3C as Note, and the marketplace of ideas would determine the extent to which it will be actually implemented and used. Obviously the DOM working group COULD tackle this job; the basic ideas of the groves model were carefully considered and deliberately excluded from the DOM API, mainly because most implementers balked at the performance/footprint implications of many grove-related ideas. So, go ahead, somebody, prove us wrong! You don't need to convince anyone at the W3C, just build a grove processing package that extends the DOM interfaces, make it available to the world, then watch what happens. I guarantee you that there are plenty of people who would LOVE to see a simple, usable, efficient object model for XML element text that avoids the problems of TextNodes. On the other hand, few of them are holding their breath waiting ... [If there are fundamental ways in which CORBA IDL or the DOM Core inhibits such extensions, I'm sure we'd be interested in hearing the details and would entertain suggestions of how to resolve such limitations.] Other matters under discussion here (especially the areas of XSL queries and attaching metadata to documents via the DOM) may well be addressed in DOM Level 3. This is a good time to start advocating specific requirements or suggest APIs! Mike Champion Software AG and W3C DOM Working Group (speaking only for myself, etc.) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jun 7 05:55:08 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990606205607.0118a630@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 08:14 PM 6/6/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >Paul Grosso wrote: >>
>Hmm, interesting. I'd not seen that one before. I wonder how >widely that one is accepted? Yes, new (and clever). I suspect that will work on any browser known to humankind. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From davids at mannanetwork.com Mon Jun 7 11:03:06 1999 From: davids at mannanetwork.com (David Soroko) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: DOM, SAX and Events Message-ID: <002e01beb0cd$653e0460$49934dd4@mannanetwork.com> XML4j parser (from IBM) implements the Visitor pattern. You run a traversal on the DOM tree and receive *events* into a visitor that rides piggy back on the traversal object. HTH David ==================================================== Hi, I'm currently using a SAX parser to parse an XML script which drives some application processing. I used SAX as it gave a nice fit with the Java event system. I've layered a lightweight application specific event system on top of SAX so those details are hidden from the application itself. This all works very nicely and is nothing new. However I now realise that I may need to repeat parts of the script, i.e. run a particular section multiple times before continuing. I can't simply copy and paste parts of the XML doc as I don't know a priori how many repetitions are required. I also can't revisit that part of the document because the SAX parser doesn't allow this. So, I'm going to move to a DOM representation and do a tree-walk instead. I can then revisit subtrees whenever required. This should be no problem to implement, but leads me to wonder whether other people have met this same problem, and if so whether it'd be useful to have an event driven interface to the DOM? Basically the interface just involves tree-walking and determining the types of nodes and generating the correct callbacks similar to SAX, albeit at a slightly higher level. Is this something others have encountered? Is it an already solved problem and I've missed something? Cheers, -- =================================================== David Soroko mailto://davids@mannanetwork.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/1628/ Manna Network Technologies =================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From owen.synge at meadowhouse.co.uk Mon Jun 7 11:28:44 1999 From: owen.synge at meadowhouse.co.uk (Owen Synge) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands Message-ID: <375B91C2.A7E805B9@meadowhouse.co.uk> I have been looking at the microsoft web pages (even though at hart I am a linux user) for XML examples, unfortunately I am yet to work out what to do with data islands once I send them to the client. Can they send them back to my server, or can they save them to disk, please help, or if you know a URL to demo these facilitys with out useing active server pages I would be most pleased. Thanks in advance Owen xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon Jun 7 11:42:13 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Owen Synge [SMTP:owen.synge@meadowhouse.co.uk] > > I have been looking at the microsoft web pages (even though at hart I am > a linux user) for XML examples, unfortunately I am yet to work out what > to do with data islands once I send them to the client. Can they send > them back to my server, or can they save them to disk, please help, or > if you know a URL to demo these facilitys with out useing active server > pages I would be most pleased. > Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that XML Data Islands are a really bad idea? I hope MS see it the same way, and deprecate them in favour of namespaces instead. As an answer to your question, you have to do something with them in Javascript (or heaven forbid: vbscript). I don't know the IE object model well enough to know if you can save them to disk, but I'm sure you can probably send them back to the server if you really want to. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From neumann at psi.uni-trier.de Mon Jun 7 14:52:45 1999 From: neumann at psi.uni-trier.de (Andreas Neumann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Announcement: Version 1.2 of fxp Message-ID: <375BC116.8D49F4BC@psi.uni-trier.de> I am pleased to announce version 1.2 of fxp, a validating XML parser written in Standard ML. New in this version: - full support for XML syntax of XML Catalog; - support for retrieval of non-local URIs; - new sample application fxviz, a document tree visualizer; - few bug fixes. fxp has been developed at the Computer Science Department, University of Trier, using Standard ML of New Jersey. fxp and its documentation are available at: http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~neumann/Fxp -- Andreas Neumann FB IV - Praktische Informatik II University of Trier, 54286 Trier email: neumann@psi.uni-trier.de Germany, Tel. : +49 651 201-2823 url : http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~neumann xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From neumann at psi.uni-trier.de Mon Jun 7 14:52:41 1999 From: neumann at psi.uni-trier.de (Andreas Neumann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Announcement: Version 1.2 of fxp Message-ID: <375BC116.8D49F4BC@psi.uni-trier.de> I am pleased to announce version 1.2 of fxp, a validating XML parser written in Standard ML. New in this version: - full support for XML syntax of XML Catalog; - support for retrieval of non-local URIs; - new sample application fxviz, a document tree visualizer; - few bug fixes. fxp has been developed at the Computer Science Department, University of Trier, using Standard ML of New Jersey. fxp and its documentation are available at: http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~neumann/Fxp -- Andreas Neumann FB IV - Praktische Informatik II University of Trier, 54286 Trier email: neumann@psi.uni-trier.de Germany, Tel. : +49 651 201-2823 url : http://www.informatik.uni-trier.de/~neumann xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon Jun 7 15:56:59 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Byte on XML-RPC In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.56.19990606191425.00ce3bc0@mail.userland.com> <1283438849-10359322@scripting.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990607065048.01d964c0@mail.userland.com> Gotta read this one! http://byte.com/features/1999/06/0607XML_RPC.html Success! Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bd at internet-etc.com Mon Jun 7 15:55:24 1999 From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands In-Reply-To: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: <000e01beb0ec$db57fe20$fe87bc3e@p300> XML Data Islands can populate tables without the author knowing any JavaScript. Personally I think they're a great way of letting ordinary web designers get at XML. They also provide a way of formatting XML database output without using either XSL or any scripting, which should enable db'ers to start getting some simple output straight away. Data Islands have nothing to do with namespaces at all. Brandt Dainow bd@internet-etc.com Internet Etc Ltd http://www.internet-etc.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On >Behalf Of >Matthew Sergeant (EML) >Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 10:44 AM >To: 'Owen Synge'; XML development >Subject: RE: Posting Data Islands > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Owen Synge [SMTP:owen.synge@meadowhouse.co.uk] >> >> I have been looking at the microsoft web pages (even though >at hart I am >> a linux user) for XML examples, unfortunately I am yet to >work out what >> to do with data islands once I send them to the client. Can they send >> them back to my server, or can they save them to disk, >please help, or >> if you know a URL to demo these facilitys with out useing >active server >> pages I would be most pleased. >> > Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion >that XML Data >Islands are a really bad idea? I hope MS see it the same way, >and deprecate >them in favour of namespaces instead. > > As an answer to your question, you have to do something >with them in >Javascript (or heaven forbid: vbscript). I don't know the IE >object model >well enough to know if you can save them to disk, but I'm sure you can >probably send them back to the server if you really want to. > > Matt. > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 7 16:21:34 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Imminent death of Namespaces predicted (was: Namespaces are dead.) In-Reply-To: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> References: <005a01beaf00$c079c860$40f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <14171.52648.395380.720312@localhost.localdomain> Rick Jelliffe writes: [snip .... BizTalk not using XML Schemas ... snip ] > In other words, namespaces are dead (for database documents) as > ways of uniquely naming elements independent of any other > considerations. They are now > "name-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language--spaces". > > Congratulations to all concerned. This is a schema problem, not a Namespace one. The XML architecture that is currently working itself out is a layered one; here's one possible path (more document-oriented): Layer Spec Purpose ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 Unicode Encoding-independent characters 2 XML Generic markup language 3 Namespaces Globally-unique names 4 Schemas (?) Generic structural constraints and relationships 5 TEI A specific set of constraints and relationships Here's another possible path (more data-oriented): Layer Spec Purpose ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 1 Unicode Encoding-independent characters 2 XML Generic markup language 3 Namespaces Globally-unique names 4 RDF Generic identification of properties (attributes) and resources (entities) 5 RDF Schema Object-oriented data constraints and relationships 6 Dublin Core A specific set of object-oriented data constraints and relationships Right now, I think that most people would agree that layers #1 and #2 (Unicode and XML) in both examples are, if not rock solid, firm enough for now, and that layer #4 in the first example (XML Schemas), and #5 in the second (RDF Schemas), are quite wobbly. I don't see, though, from any of Rick's examples, that there is reason to call layer #3 (Namespaces) into question. Last summer in Montreal, I argued that Architectural Forms themselves would make a useful layer on top of Namespaces (so that you can say element X is a kind of element Y without reading a 500K schema to figure it out), but Architectural Forms are about subtyping, not naming per se, so they're not competing for the same space. We're gradually creeping our way up a greased pole; so far, the Unicode Consortium and ISO have standardised a character set, the W3C (and, indirectly, ISO) have specified a low-level markup language, and the W3C has specified a global naming scheme for elements and attributes. Many people believe that the next logical layer is schemas; Rick is right to point out that there are problems in those woods, but the lower layers are still safe (just as disagreement over HTTP wouldn't put TCP itself into jeopardy). Eventually, we'll hit a point where it doesn't make sense (or becomes too difficult) to standardize any further, but the lower layers should be fine. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 7 16:21:12 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <375925C9.AC6A7F40@w3.org> References: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> <14158.42213.350360.409498@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990528110617.015740f0@mail.accessone.com> <14158.60704.722872.118928@localhost.localdomain> <375925C9.AC6A7F40@w3.org> Message-ID: <14171.54095.173678.376151@localhost.localdomain> Chris Lilley writes: > > If you give me a single, well-formed XML document, I can *always* > > write a DTD that describes its structure. > > Yes. You declare each observed element, give it a content model of any, > declare each observed attribute, and make it PCDATA. In fact, you can do it without resorting to ANY; you could also type the attributes much more closely as well. There is already existing software that will take a stab at it for you. The original point, though, was that by definition a document is not well-formed if it cannot be described by a DTD, not that the absence of a DTD (or other schema) is insignificant. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 7 16:21:24 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:51 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU In-Reply-To: <000001beaf65$98332940$0a000a0a@csg> References: <000001beaf65$98332940$0a000a0a@csg> Message-ID: <14171.53913.875128.977845@localhost.localdomain> WorldNet writes: > I've noticed that Netscape Communicator 4.x ignores
and haven't tried > same with IE4.x as I've upgraded to IE5. Try
It's annoying, but it works. Same with , ,
, etc. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Mon Jun 7 16:25:00 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands Message-ID: <199906071425.HAA17893@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> I don't quite understand the comment about replacing a named temporary buffer for XML sent to me from a server by a namespace, but here's an example of posting an XML data island to a server: function postTextAreaXMLToServer() { // Get a new XML Document (these 3 lines not required if // "doc" was already the name of an XML Data Island // in the page). In my example I let the user type in // an XML document in a TEXTAREA on the form whose // name="toSend". doc.loadXML() loads raw text and parses // it as an XML document. var doc = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM"); doc.async = false; doc.loadXML(toSend.value); // Get an instance of the HTTP Request/Response Object var msg = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLHTTP"); // Open an HTTP message to define its characteristics msg.open("POST","http://smuench-lap/echoxml.jsp",false); // Send the "doc" XML Document (/Data Island) msg.send(doc); // Interpret the response. In this case my server JSP page // parses the sent XML file and sends back the same XML // file as a "text/xml" mimetype (an echo test). toReceive.value = msg.responseXML.documentElement.xml; } See: http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/reference/scriptref/XMLHttpRequest_object.asp For complete details... _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Matthew Sergeant (EML)" Subject: RE: Posting Data Islands Date: 07 Jun 99 02:43:58 Size: 3589 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990607/a81e0731/attachment.eml From creitzel at mediaone.net Mon Jun 7 16:29:15 1999 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! Message-ID: <199906071430.KAA13614@chmls05.mediaone.net> Must this same discussion be repeated endlessly? In its essence, it has changed not a whit in a year. Indeed, many of the participants are the same. As folks have pointed out, it is an important subject upon which many pieces of software depend. So I am merely expressing dismay that reasonable conventions have not sorted themselves out. Question: wouldn't it be reasonable for URN's in some schemes to be overloaded? For example, couldn't some portion of a namespace URN be the schema or dtd file declaring the namespace contents? Any host serving up documents (or portions thereof) using the namespace could easily resolve the filename and return the schema/dtd file itself. urn:: urn:xmlns:joebob/schema/widgets.dtd Generally, http servers and their ilk do *not* need literal paths to files. All kinds of path tranlation is performed. Thus, there is plenty of opportunity to resolve the name to a concrete resource (and return a "not found" if the request is not meaningful). Conventions like *not* including a file extension in the URN if the namespace is abstract will go a long way to helping NS users avoid making such requests. As many have said, it would be useful to have an explicit mechanism to reference a dtd/schema document associated w/ a namespace. Without such a mechanism, URN overloading is practically a requirement. Also, some folks are reasonably concerned about permanance. They don't like DNS names in URNs because DNS could go down or the domain name could become unregistered and then reregistered to someone else using the name in a completely different context, etc. etc. For applications that need it, I would investigate getting an ISO Object Identifier. Your organization can get a globally unique number from the ISO which identifies your organization and can be extended to identify important entities it publishes. Like DNS, you just get the one ID from the global registry which may then be used to qualify any additional IDs you define. Unlike DNS, there is no particular association with a given piece of software or data format and the registration body will not unregister your ID if you don't make annual payments. It shouldn't be too hard to use an OID within a URI/URN (you pick). If it is, go bug the appropriate IETF WG, because it shouldn't be. At any rate, I think the XML community can look to de facto standards (MIME/HTTP) for resolution of schema documents and standards bodies for permanent ID registration. It isn't *that* hard. Best regards, Charles Reitzel >From: "Jonathan Borden" >Subject: Re: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) > >Paul Prescod wrote: >> >>But there are specifications being built on top of the namespaces >>specification that make use of the URI. These specifications are not right >>or wrong -- the namespace spec is silent about what happens if you >>dereference the URI. >> >>When these specifications are deployed, software will attempt to >>dereference namespace URIs. That software will not know whether to report >>inaccessible URLs as errors or retry on the hope that it is available now >>or merely assume that that namespace doesn't have an associated document. >>Do we report an error or merely continue? > > This is a very difficult problem without an easy solution. > > This problem will arise with most data whose lifespan is expected to be >long. Short term problems include network outages as well as firewall >issues. Longer term problems include changes in DNS ownership. Still longer >term problems include changes in network protocols (i.e. when http becomes a >legacy and/or unsupported protocol). > > The only good solution to this problem is to keep schemas/DTDs together >with documents and not depend on any network protocol. > > URNs aren't a solution to this problem, because URN's don't allow >dereferencing (otherwise they become another type of URL). Wouldn't it also >be an error to attempt to dereference "urn:xxx..."? > >Jonathan Borden >http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From puff at netcom.com Mon Jun 7 16:39:01 1999 From: puff at netcom.com (Steven J. Owens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Cobol Copybooks? Message-ID: <199906071441.HAA19454@netcom17.netcom.com> Hey folks, I've been lurking for a few weeks; I tried to post this question when I first subscribed, but I never saw it show up. Maybe that should have warned me :-). Anyway, I'm working on a project where there seem to be some uses for XML. My part is in Java on several Solaris boxes, but another part of the project is an MQSeries connection to CICS/Cobol, mostly to grab data that's formatted via Cobol Copybooks. So we're writing classes to parse certain specific copybook formats; it seems to me that it'd be really nifty to have a generic system to generate XML DTDs from the copybooks, and then parse the data into XML-tagged format. Even better would be to do this on the CICS side of things, since that's where the data comes from, and send both the DTD and the XML-tagged data back through MQSeries. Then on the other side, a java XML parser (somebody suggested SAX would be a good place to start) could be used to parse the data. Is there anything out there that does this sort of thing? I'd think IBM would be working on something (they seem to be really investing in new technologies these days; Java, XML, Linux...) since they have such a big stake in the CICS/Cobol market. But I can't find anything on it. Steven J. Owens puff@netcom.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Mon Jun 7 16:46:08 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990606205607.0118a630@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <000201beb0f5$50cf6dc0$0a000a0a@csg> > David Brownell wrote: > >Paul Grosso wrote: > >>
> >Hmm, interesting. I'd not seen that one before. I wonder how > >widely that one is accepted? > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Tim Bray > Yes, new (and clever). I suspect that will work on any browser known > to humankind. -T. Yes, using
does seem to work in NC4.x and IE5.x using... Would the same hold true using 'strict'? I need to question for understanding wether the class itself needs to be defined somewhere as I've been needing to do with CSS? Does it not or is the recognition of the html-compatibility-mode attribute value something the parsing agent recognizes via the DOCTYPE mechanism? The document I'm using as a learning model was created using MS Word 2000...which arguably will be IMHO how most XML documents in the near future will be created by the larger population of users that in turn will require modification and refinement by others. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pgrosso at arbortext.com Mon Jun 7 17:08:46 1999 From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990607101012.00d25aac@pophost.arbortext.com> At 20:57 1999 06 06 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 08:14 PM 6/6/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >>Paul Grosso wrote: >>>
>>Hmm, interesting. I'd not seen that one before. I wonder how >>widely that one is accepted? > >Yes, new (and clever). I suspect that will work on any browser known >to humankind. -T. To give appropriate credit, I first heard of this approach in a posting by Chris Maden. It seems to work pretty universally in my (admittedly not exhaustive) experience. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon Jun 7 18:04:46 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Well-Formed SNAFU Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990607120639.007ff170@polaris.net> At 10:11 AM 6/7/1999 -0500, Paul Grosso wrote: >>>>
>To give appropriate credit, I first heard of this approach in a >posting by Chris Maden. Yes. I think Chris's preferred expression of it, though, is:
:) ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jun 7 18:18:19 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: RDF and Resources References: <375A3D93.4B8E34D2@prescod.net> Message-ID: <375BDB87.8C8290EC@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > According to RFC 2396, a resource is something addressable by a URI > (without fragment identifier) -- a complete HTML or XML document, not a > part of it. Technically you are correct: there is a discrepancy here between resources accessible by URIs simpliciter, and those accessible by URI references (possibly including anchors). > Also, I find it interesting to note that RDF does not seem to be able to > attach metadata to components of things that are not XML: frames of a > video, records in a database, paragraphs in a Word document and so forth. > We need the ability to do so. This is not an RDF problem; it reflects the fact that nobody has defined the meaning of fragment ids for those media types. Go thou forth and define. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jun 7 18:21:57 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: HAX References: <199905280259.WAA14197@locke.ccil.org> <375BE1F1.515390DC@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <375BEB40.4486B0E1@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > Hmm, I have a SAX2 driver that parses XML, which I'll release this week. I suppose you mean "parses HTML". > It uses the Swing HTML parser, which is pretty universally available > though (like all HTML parsers) it's got quirks with respect to how it > handles faulty XML. That was my first idea, but I learned that the Swing parser doesn't do the amount of cleanup I want, so I decided to roll my own. Don Park also has a SAX interface to Swing-HTML, freely available but closed source. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon Jun 7 18:28:04 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A1974@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steve Muench [SMTP:SMUENCH@us.oracle.com] > > I don't quite understand the comment about replacing > a named temporary buffer for XML sent to me from a server > by a namespace, but here's an example of posting an > XML data island to a server: > The point of what I said about namespaces was that XML data islands are non-standard, and IE only. What would be better (IMHO) than the ugly non-standard bastardised HTML tag addition of Data islands would be a way of accessing an individual namespace embedded within an xhtml document, so instead of having:

Some xml below:

You would have:

Some namespace scoped XML below:

See what I mean? And then have some standardised (DOM) mechanism of accessing that data. I know I've just opened up a huge kettle of fish here, so I'm going to stand back as the worms spill out :) Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Mon Jun 7 18:54:12 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Cobol Copybooks? Message-ID: <01BEB0E5.67B1FDB0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Steven J. Owens wrote: "...it'd be really nifty to have a generic system to generate XML DTDs from the copybooks, and then parse the data into XML-tagged format." Steven, XML Convert can probably convert your legacy data into XML. XML Convert is a Java application that converts flat files into XML. It uses XFlat schemas to parse and validate the flat files, and to produce the XML output. XFlat is an XML language for defining flat file schemas. XML Convert supports a wide variety of flat file formats, including CSV, fixed length records and fields, multiple record types, groups of records, nested groups, etc. You can download XML Convert 1.0 for free at http://www.unidex.com/. By the way, XML Convert can not convert a COBOL copybook into a DTD. However, Metagenix (http://www.metagenix.com/) claims to have products that will parse cobol copy books and extract the metadata. I doubt that their products can convert a cobol copy book into a DTD; however, perhaps you could write a simple script to convert the Metagenix output into a DTD (or into an XFlat schema :-). Hope this helps. Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 7 19:39:00 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands In-Reply-To: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: <14171.55470.707995.769641@localhost.localdomain> Matthew Sergeant (EML) writes: > Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that XML Data > Islands are a really bad idea? I have heard almost no one suggest that they are a good one. Arguments range from "Microsoft is pushing them so hard that we have to do something" to "Let's ignore them and they'll go away", but never (yet) "Wow -- this is the solution I've been waiting for!". > I hope MS see it the same way, and deprecate them in favour of > namespaces instead. Or, better yet, (That way, legacy browsers don't have to bother downloading XML they cannot use, and one XML object can be shared among multiple Web pages.) Is anyone else but MS using these? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Mon Jun 7 19:47:30 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: HAX In-Reply-To: <375BEB40.4486B0E1@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <000401beb10e$26c73300$efe5fea9@w21tp> > That was my first idea, but I learned that the Swing parser doesn't > do the amount of cleanup I want, so I decided to roll my own. We seem to be doing redundant work. I am also toying with my own HTML parser because Swing's HTML parser sucks mightly. I will likely use Kimbo Mundy's HTML 3.2 grammar as the starting point because Tidy source gives me a severe headache. We'll see who comes up with the best, eh?;-p > Don Park also has a SAX interface to Swing-HTML, freely available > but closed source. Actually, the source is available on request. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andyclar at us.ibm.com Mon Jun 7 19:56:16 1999 From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: IBM's xml4j 2.x and VisualCafe Message-ID: <87256789.0062A66B.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com> Version 2.0.x of the IBM XML4J parser uses exceptions to denote the end of an input stream (external and internal entities). These exceptions are handled internally and do not affect the running of applications using the parser. However, VisualCafe, by default, catches exceptions of type ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException when running in debug mode. You need to turn off this automatic feature in VisualCafe in order to run an application using XML4J 2.0.x in debug mode. This option is found under Project | Options. Select the "Debugging" tab and change the category to "Exceptions". Now you'll see a list of exceptions that cause the debugger to automatically halt execution. Deselect java.lang.ArrayIndexOutOfBoundsException and select "Ok". -- Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyclar@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andyclar at us.ibm.com Mon Jun 7 19:58:22 1999 From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: Delayed xml-dev Posts? Message-ID: <87256789.0062CFA7.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com> Did I miss a post somewhere regarding the xml-dev server? Whereas I used to receive the digest every day, I now receive it only every 5 days. Anyone else reading digest form see this? -- Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyclar@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jun 7 20:05:19 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:52 2004 Subject: HAX References: <000401beb10e$26c73300$efe5fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <375C0A56.8D7CA890@locke.ccil.org> Don Park wrote: > > Don Park also has a SAX interface to Swing-HTML, freely available > > but closed source. > > Actually, the source is available on request. By "closed-source" I mean "not Open-Source (SM)"; see http://www.opensource.org/osd.html . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon Jun 7 21:13:18 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEED@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Actually, on the project I'm working on right now data islands have been exactly what we were looking for. (Before, when we were using IE4, we hacked up the same thing by using a hidden div.) I'm afraid it would take a huge email to explain WHY we love data islands so much, but suffice it to say that sometimes it's helpful to have some information embedded in the page that your application can read. As for the *syntax* of that data island, I don't really have a preference one way or the other. So if it was or if it was either one would be fine for me. I'd prefer not to have to use the data attribute, though, and link to a separate XML file. David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com -----Original Message----- From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 10:43 AM To: XML development Subject: RE: Posting Data Islands Matthew Sergeant (EML) writes: > Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that XML Data > Islands are a really bad idea? I have heard almost no one suggest that they are a good one. Arguments range from "Microsoft is pushing them so hard that we have to do something" to "Let's ignore them and they'll go away", but never (yet) "Wow -- this is the solution I've been waiting for!". > I hope MS see it the same way, and deprecate them in favour of > namespaces instead. Or, better yet, (That way, legacy browsers don't have to bother downloading XML they cannot use, and one XML object can be shared among multiple Web pages.) Is anyone else but MS using these? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon Jun 7 21:15:40 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Posting Data Islands In-Reply-To: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A196C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: * Matthew Sergeant | | Am I the only person that has come to the conclusion that XML Data | Islands are a really bad idea? Certainly not. I suppose most people think it's so obviously a terrible idea that they don't even bother to say so explicitly. | I hope MS see it the same way, and deprecate them in favour of | namespaces instead. I've seen nothing to indicate that this is the case. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jason at communicate.com Mon Jun 7 21:33:21 1999 From: jason at communicate.com (Jason Classon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <676B57969F72D211917100104B884EC6440B8F@scratchy.communicate.com> unsubscribe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990607/1ecfc19d/attachment.htm From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 7 21:50:31 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: HAX References: <199905280259.WAA14197@locke.ccil.org> <375BE1F1.515390DC@pacbell.net> <375BEB40.4486B0E1@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <375C22A5.3927EDF2@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > > Hmm, I have a SAX2 driver that parses XML, which I'll release this week. > > I suppose you mean "parses HTML". Yes indeed ... typos abound, so much of the world has taken to writing XML when they mean HTML! I did so below, too ... ;-) > > It uses the Swing HTML parser, which is pretty universally available > > though (like all HTML parsers) it's got quirks with respect to how it > > handles faulty XML. > > That was my first idea, but I learned that the Swing parser doesn't > do the amount of cleanup I want, so I decided to roll my own. It's imperfect, but is pretty generally available (and getting moreso). It works for much, but not all, of the broken HTML in the world. And at a bare minimum, it's a good lead-in to more sophisticated packages!! I know they've worked to improve its error recovery, and will do more, though there are limits to how much broken HTML they'll accept. > Don Park also has a SAX interface to Swing-HTML, freely available > but closed source. I'll have this one under an Open Source (tm) license. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Mon Jun 7 22:51:48 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge Message-ID: <01BEB106.A616BA20@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Roger wrote: "...Any way to do it with the Dec. 16 WD?" Roger, I thought of a kludgey way to do it with the Dec. 16 WD. You can create a stylesheet that generates a 2nd stylesheet, such that the 2nd stylesheet transforms your DynamicTable document into the desired HTML table. You would then invoke XT twice as follows: xt.exe table.xml first.xsl second.xsl xt.exe table.xml second.xsl table.htm The following XSL stylesheet converts your DynamicTable document into a stylesheet that transforms your XML doc into the desired HTML table: Dynamic Table Column[@name=""]
Hope this helps. Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 8 03:19:21 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F1814@master.design-intelligence.com> Steven Newcomb wrote: What, exactly, is the nature of the real-world problem that namespaces are the key to solving? Namespaces are still *perceived* as solving, and are often *sold* as solving, a problem that they do not in fact solve: the problem of allowing information to be exchanged in a truly open marketplace. Namespaces are being sold as the key to interchanging e-commerce information. And they will work for that purpose, BUT NOT IN A VENDOR-NEUTRAL CONTEXT, in which every system vendor can participate on a level playing field with every other system vendor, with a reasonable expectation that information will be reliably interchanged, regardless of who made the software that produces or applies the information. The problem Namespaces solve is ambiguity - the same name means different things. As Steven noted, that results in the creations of private islands of names. The problem architectures solve is synonym - the same meaning has a different name in the context of the architecture. To me, the problem with architectures is not their concept but their implementation: * If they are to work with well-formed but not valid documents, each element needs its mapping declaration attribute which is quite verbose and means a document must change with the addition of a new architecture. * If they are restricted to valid documents, then the architecture mapping attribute can be defaulted in the DTD and the content would not need to be changed with a new architecture (the DTD would). However, then it is restricted to validation parsers. It just breaks either way. I am viewing an architecture as the description of the expected form of some application that will use the document. It's preferable to not change a document just because there is a new consumer for it. I've suggested in the past that the problem that is trying to be solved is the re-use of documents under different organizational models (i.e. with different element labels). I see that as different applications parsing the same source document with different validation criteria. Such re-use should meet the following goals: * The content document should not reflect how it can be reused. * There should be a specification that describes how a document should be re-used. * The latter specification is associated with the consumer of the document, not the document itself. To put it plainly, the basic problem is putting document consumer information in the document. Doing so results in needing to modify every document every time a new consumer is created. Parsers need an additional mode - parse the element tree resulting from parsing a document according to a second DTD that is supplied by the application using the parser. This DTD expresses the mapping of elements ala architectures. This gives you architecture functionality without modifying document content in any way. It is trying to do everything in the document that creates the problem. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From falk at icon.at Tue Jun 8 04:14:37 1999 From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Announcement: XML Spy 2.5 with DTD-Validation and three-view arch itecture Message-ID: Fellow XML developers, it is my pleasure to announce the release of XML Spy 2.5 final today! After many weeks of hard work and with the support of our beta testers we have finalized this new major update to our XML editor software for Windows. Version 2.5 introduces complete DTD-Validation support and the new three-view architecture: * The Enhanced Grid View is what already made XML Spy so popular with our existing customers. It shows the entire structure of an XML document in a hierarchical presentation that allows in-place editing of all elements. * The new Source View gives you the option to view the XML document in source form with customizable syntax-coloring and allows you to directly edit the source for low-level tasks. * The integrated Browser View uses Internet Explorer 5 to render your XML document inside XML Spy. This view fully supports CSS and XSL and can be displayed in a separate window so that you can keep one of the above editing views and the browser view side-by-side for maximum editing comfort. Please visit our web-server to download the new version: http://www.xmlspy.com If you have previously installed XML Spy, but not yet purchased a license and would like to evaluate this version, you may be getting reminders that your original evaluation period has already expired. If this happens to you, please send a short message to mailto:sales@xmlspy.com and request a free 30-day evaluation extension key-code to try the new version. We hope that you will enjoy this new release as much as we do! Please send any comments, feedback, or suggestions to mailto:support@xmlspy.com. Sincerely, Alexander Falk xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 8 04:59:09 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Imminent death of Namespaces predicted (was: Namespaces are dead.) Message-ID: <001c01beb153$2fa4e450$4ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson >Rick Jelliffe writes: > > In other words, namespaces are dead (for database documents) as > > ways of uniquely naming elements independent of any other > > considerations. They are now > > "name-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language--spaces". > > > > Congratulations to all concerned. > >This is a schema problem, not a Namespace one. If I have to change namespaces URIs to generate acceptable data for different uses, then namespaces are not providing universal names as they should. There are two ways around this that I see: 1) make sure that all specs that overload namespaces URIs allow content negotiation; 2) provide a way to allow multiple processes to use the same data (i.e., use PIs); These are not mutually exclusive options. I think BizTalk is a great looking framework: exciting. I have no objection to using the namespace URI to reference schemas, with the particular schema returned by content negotiation. And I have no objection to a framework only adopting a single schema language. But the current BizTalk and XML Schema details do not make any provision for multiple schemas in different languages. If both Microsoft and W3C have major applications that tie namespace names to particular technologies, then we do not have the nice layers that Dave sees: we have one layer limiting the previous layer. The namespace layer then has to be smarter, to know which namespaces to use for a document (which URI to point to schemas in the appropriate layer for the next languages). It is a schema (or higher layer) problem as Dave says, but it kills off namespaces. Another flaw I see in the idea that a document should only belong to a single schema, is that it ignores the practicalities of workflow. A document goes around through various processes and gets bits of markup added or removed as appropriate. Certain checks are appropriate to be reported at different times and to different users (this is one reason why BizTalk is exciting: the routing idea is very interesting). I hope a Schema PI would allow staged schemas for data, based on workflow phases: This allows schemas designed for particular purposes: for creating authoring templates, for asserting a consistant structure before acceptance at the browser end, etc. There should be a starting vocabulary defined for the phases. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dineshv at email.msn.com Tue Jun 8 08:40:28 1999 From: dineshv at email.msn.com (Dinesh Vadhia) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: XML Search Engines ... Message-ID: <000001beb115$aae02b40$744895c1@thinkpad> Apologies for any recent repitition, but ... Could someone (or people) point me to the latest information on XML search engines ... Thank-you ... Dinesh -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990608/a47406c1/attachment.htm From RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM Tue Jun 8 08:28:04 1999 From: RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM (Raghavendra, Karthik (CTS)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Using Data Islands with Applets Message-ID: <15BC1866E5CFD111900E00A0C9A6F35E013E47C6@CTSINCSISXUC> I have created an applet that will load a XML file and display the contents. I now want to use a data island with the applet to achieve the same thing. Is this possible and if so, how ? Thanks in advance Karthik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990608/8f30aa52/attachment.htm From james at xmltree.com Tue Jun 8 09:29:41 1999 From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: XML Search Engines ... References: <000001beb115$aae02b40$744895c1@thinkpad> Message-ID: <00c601beb180$e53fb380$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Dinesh >Apologies for any recent repitition, but ... >Could someone (or people) point me to the latest information >on XML search engines ... Thank-you ... The ones I'm aware of are www.scoobs.com - clever XML robot which allows you to search in context (like altavista) i.e. nested inside instead of www.ibm.com/xml - plain XML robot (like altavista) www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content (like yahoo) and XML interfaces Walter Underwood tells me that Ultraseek Server 3.1 (in beta this month) will support the contextual searching that scoobs supports. Best regards, James Carlyle james@xmltree.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 8 15:20:18 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: Imminent death of Namespaces predicted (was: Namespaces are dead.) In-Reply-To: <001c01beb153$2fa4e450$4ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> References: <001c01beb153$2fa4e450$4ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <14173.3219.87318.852859@localhost.localdomain> Rick Jelliffe writes: > If I have to change namespaces URIs to generate acceptable data for > different uses, then namespaces are not providing universal names > as they should. No, Namespaces still provide a facility for universal names; that said, the provision of a facility is easy, while the process of getting people to agree to a single set of names is *very* hard. For example, I can declare that (using James Clark's notation) {http://www.megginson.com/ns/}person names an element or attribute referring a person; at the same time, Amazom.com can declare that {urn:urn-12345:ns}human names an element or attribute referring to a person. One can hardly claim in any fairness that this is a breakdown in Namespaces -- it's a business problem that (with any scheme) can be solved only by the long, laborious process of discussion, trial implementation, and standardization. Exactly the same problem could occur with Architectural Forms or any other mechanism for naming or subtyping. > If both Microsoft and W3C have major applications that tie namespace > names to particular technologies, then we do not have the nice layers > that Dave sees: we have one layer limiting the previous layer. Not at all -- Namespaces provide a universal naming layer, and RDF and BizTalk present (incompatible) application-specific mechanisms for using that information. It might be nice to standardize higher layers, but we'll have to see how things develop. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From balba at eancol.org Tue Jun 8 15:25:31 1999 From: balba at eancol.org (Bernardo Alba) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > unsubscribe > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at catapultt.com Tue Jun 8 16:34:17 1999 From: carl at catapultt.com (Carl Schei) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism Message-ID: <005201beb1bc$9b9c91d0$786f6f6f@womble> > Hi There, > > I have been pondering the following question. It is an easy one (perhaps > irrelevant), but has been bothering me - > XML is considered to be an excellent way of allowing two > applications/platforms to be able to share data in a common format. My > question is, what are going to be the accepted ways of interfacing to this > common format, i.e., If I were to develop an application that could > receive/deliver requests in XML Format, how exactly would it receive/deliver > the XML Data? > > I can think of, > > 1/ > Flat Files. An Application generates an XML File which is sent to the > another application to read and parse. > > 2/ > Over HTTP. An application will generate an XML stream that will be passed > via HTTP to a listening application. How exactly would this work - > specifically in Java? Is there a standard way of opening up an HTTP > connection and piping down the XML? Unfortunately I am not familiar with > java.net.* classes. > > 3/ > Through some specified API call. One application would call a pre-defined > method on another application using COM, DCOM, RMI etc > > -- > Carl Schei > Catapult Technology, Inc. > (630) 515-3670 phone > carl@catapultt.com > http://www.catapultt.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Tue Jun 8 17:44:09 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:53 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file Message-ID: <19990608153917.7335.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Hi All, This is very urgent. Is there any program or tool which converts an XML document to ascii text file. Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Tue Jun 8 18:39:11 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file Message-ID: <01BEB1AC.718315A0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Malliks wrote: "Is there any program or tool which converts an XML document to ascii text file." Malliks, XSLT can do this. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xslt There are several free XSL processors available. For example, James Clark's XT (http://www.jclark.com/xml/xt.html). Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gebhardt at integraliscentaur.de Tue Jun 8 18:41:43 1999 From: gebhardt at integraliscentaur.de (Gebhardt, Uwe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: How can I get an attribute datatype? Message-ID: <902B574B9DBED211BAA60008C79FE49B31C15C@exchange.centaur.de> Hello! I created a XML-File with its DTD an a schema. Then I wrote a program in Java which works with my XML data. I used the DataChannel XJParser. It is necessary for me to save the datatypes of elements and attributes. For instance, I have an element "EXTRAS". This element is empty, but it has attributes, which are from type boolean. (EXTRAS is a tag from a car-description and it should save what extras the car has, for instance: car includes Airbages: Airbag="1" else Airbag="0". ) Therefor the attribute "Airbag" has to be from type "boolean". So I tried to make my attributes from type boolean, but it doesnt work. My schema looks like this: ... ... In this case even the parsing goes wrong. I get the message: XMLDOMException18 If I change , my program gets the datatype of MODEL (from all elements) but not from Airbag (from all attributes). The dt of attributes are "null". Can anybody help me any further? Thank you, Uws -- Uwe Gebhardt Connect-X GmbH Tel.: 07131/799-100 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue Jun 8 20:12:26 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file In-Reply-To: <01BEB1AC.718315A0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: Hi, Can you explain how with just a simple example. Let's say the XML document is: This is the title One upon a time... How would you transform this XML document above into a plain asci text? Can you show it with a XSL script? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Robert C. Lyons Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 12:43 PM To: 'Mallikarjuna Sangappa'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: XML Document to ascii text file Malliks wrote: "Is there any program or tool which converts an XML document to ascii text file." Malliks, XSLT can do this. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xslt There are several free XSL processors available. For example, James Clark's XT (http://www.jclark.com/xml/xt.html). Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ksievers at novell.com Tue Jun 8 21:01:20 1999 From: ksievers at novell.com (Kent Sievers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... Message-ID: Clearly, if we had a DNS server that was capable of mapping the URN of a name space to a URL then the requirements would be met of having both a unique identifier and a way of getting information about the namespace. Is someone stepping forward to do this sort of thing? . >>> Steve Dahl 06/04/99 02:57PM >>> Kent Sievers wrote: > I see how Paul's proposal meets the "forever unique" requirement, but how is it usefull for retrieving the namespace information? Imagine something like a DNS server, or maybe imagine subverting existing DNS servers--I don't know how well adapted or scalable they are in their current incarnations. This new DNS-like server, rather than mapping "smtp.goshawk.com" to "38.247.98.2", would instead map: urn:urn-22:19990603:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk:e-mail ..to: http://xml.org/XML/namespaces/e-mail So, when I want the documentation for the "e-mail" namespace, my browser asks the DNS-like server to map the URN to an URL, then looks up the URL as normal. If we assume that such URN servers existed, we could also assume that browsers include enough intelligence to recognize that URIs which begin with "urn:" need to be mapped through this special server. > Reguarding the collisions, I for one would be willing to live with either 1) a "forever unique" ID or 2) taking my chances with the odds on a more descriptive ID. Right, but the point is, there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't be willing to live with taking their chances. If you're creating your own namespace for your own project, I wouldn't dream of forcing you to use an ugly but forever unique ID. But if I were a customer who cared about long-term uniqueness, and I had to use your namespace, I might rebel against using an identifier that doesn't have any guarantee of uniqueness. Every marketplace that defines XML namespaces, or any sort of "global identifier", has to answer for itself what the most important characteristics of that identifier should be. And besides, who said forever unique IDs can't be descriptive? They can't be descriptive if you restrict yourself to a 20 digit integer, but if you use a more descriptive (but unique) name, they can be perfectly self-describing. > Finnally, I think that you missunderstood me on my third question. I never suggested making the URL part of the document. I am proposing that it be part of the ID. For example xmlns="xxxxxxxxx:http://www.novell.com/myproject/mynamespace" where xxxxxxx is a "forever unique" identifier and the rest is an indication of where it can be retrieved. The point is that the second part can be used to retreive, while the unique identifier can be used to identify and possibly perform a search in case the information is moved. It would be replacable/ignorable without breaking the essence of the identifier. Respectfully, no, I did not misunderstand you. What you describe here is exactly what I understood the first time. The question of whether the URL is part of the ID or is independently encoded somewhere else in the document is not important. In general, if the URL is part of the ID, it is part of the document. Namespace ids frequently are embedded in the document. If my document's root element looks like this: ... ..then the URL (by being part of the namespace ID) is part of the document, and when the URL becomes obsolete, the document contains a lie (or at best, an invalid cache). At that point, I either have a choice of modifying the document, or letting it continue to contain a very descriptive (but very wrong) URL. Neither proposition appeals to me--the first because my document may have been digitally signed, so any modification invalidates the signiture. I can't speak to the issue of leaving the URL incorrect in the ID--I don't know whether you imagine the search for the new URL based on "xxxxxxx" would be something that any browser could do, and do quickly, or not. But (IMHO) this ability to map "xxxxxxx" to an URL would have to be something that *almost* any URL-using software could do, and do quickly and transparently--let me justify that for a moment: - "any URL-using software" -- if there's documentation there, we might want to see it in a browser, or if it's in a formal language, we might want to have some program read it. Both the browser and the other programs would need the ability to map "xxxxxxx" to an URL. - "quickly" -- so that mission critical software doesn't degrade very much even when the original URL is wrong - "transparently" -- because the logic of detecting a bad URL and then searching for "xxxxxxx" is not something that we want to require human intervention to do--we would (presumably) want it to just happen. Human intervention would be especially bad if this needed to be done in a batch program. Now, assume that the act of mapping "xxxxxxx" to an URL was something most software (including browsers) could do, and it was quick, and it was transparent. If it's important enough, assume further that "xxxxxxx" is a descriptive identifier, and not just a number. If all that were true, there would be no compelling reason to use the URL that's in the identifier--if you use the provided URL, you have to include some sort of validation mechanism to make sure the URL points to a resource that matches "xxxxxxx". But assuming that searching for "xxxxxxx" is fast, you don't need to do validation on it. If you believe all that (for example, that mapping "xxxxxxx" must be fast, therefore it will be fast), then why would we ever use the URL? And if we never used it, what was the benefit of including it in the first place? Essentially, as I see it, you're saying that there *must* be a way to search for the current URL based on the string "xxxxxxx"--otherwise, if the URL disappears, the documentation disappears. And at the top of this message, I described how "xxxxxxx" could be mapped to an URL, with good performance. So if "xxxxxxx" is an URN, and we can map URNs to URLs transparently, isn't the URL redundant? -- - Steve Dahl sdahl@goshawk.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net Tue Jun 8 22:10:45 1999 From: RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net (Ron Daniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: All this business about namespace URNs... Message-ID: <0D611E39F997D0119F9100A0C931315C60F755@datafusionnt1> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kent Sievers [SMTP:ksievers@novell.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 11:34 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... > > Clearly, if we had a DNS server that was capable of mapping the URN of > a name space to a URL then the requirements would be met of having > both a unique identifier and a way of getting information about the > namespace. > > Is someone stepping forward to do this sort of thing? . > [Ron Daniel] This has been done. See RFC 2168 and 2169 (if memory serves, I'm offline at the moment). The first defines a new resource record, NAPTR, which has been implemented in BIND for a couple of years now. It is used for finding one or more 'resolvers'. The second RFC defines a trivial protocol for communicating with resolvers using HTTP. Together, they will let URNs in a new "foo" namespace be mapped to a URL. The bottleneck here is that for the "foo" namespace you need to get the domain name "foo.urn.net" and put the NAPTR resource record there. The only way to get that domain is to fill out the application form the IETF's URN WG has been defining. It doesn't cost anything right now, and there are no plans to charge for such names that I know of, but its safe to see the registration procedure is not a smooth and polished process. (The purpose of the procedure is to prevent cyber-squatting on URN namespace identifiers, and to insulate the owner of the urn.net domain from lawsuits if he had to make the call on whether or not to register "foo"). Later, Ron xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 8 22:27:14 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: All this buisiness about namespace URNs... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990608131922.013e7520@library.berkeley.edu> At 12:34 PM 6/8/1999 -0600, Kent Sievers wrote: >Clearly, if we had a DNS server that was capable of mapping the URN of a name space to a URL then the requirements would be met of having both a unique identifier and a way of getting information about the namespace. > >Is someone stepping forward to do this sort of thing? . > >Imagine something like a DNS server, or maybe imagine subverting existing DNS servers--I don't know how well adapted or scalable they are in their current incarnations. > Basically, you're talking about URN resolution, and a variety of people are working on the problem. Justin Couch is writing a java package for dealing with URNs in conjunction with the IETF's working group on the topic. See http://www.vlc.com.au/~justin/java/ for more information and to have a look at his code. Some folks at MIT have proposed extending HTTP to support URNs more directly; see http://www.w3.org/People/Frystyk/draft-ietf-http-wire.txt. A lot of the focus for URN resolution has been on the THTTP convention proposed by Ron Daniel (RFC 2169). Justin's package includes a basic THTTP resolver, and I've also hacked together a THTTP server for experimental work here at Berkeley (which I haven't released, because the UI truly, truly sucks). Most of the URN crowd has been reluctant to put URN resolution on to DNS. While DNS has the advantage of being a pre-existing, proven system, it is already slightly strained, and putting URN resolution on it would add a very significant burden once URNs are more widely adopted. For more information on this, see Ron Daniel and Michael Mealling's discussion in the introduction to RFC 2169. My take on looking over the URN Working Group's documents is that the default assumption by the IETF is that client software will first turn to DNS and ask where it can find a resolver for a particular URN namespace (DNS will use NAPTR records to identify resolvers for particular URN name spaces) and then go to the resolver identified by DNS to resolve particular URNs. So if you have a URN like urn:urn-ns:ns-identifier in hand, client software will query DNS to find out where a URN resolver for the urn-ns URN namespace lives and what protocol it needs to use to communicate with it, and then will query the URN resolver using that protocol as to where the resource identified by ns-identifier lives. So, we can use DNS to establish globally where the resolver for a namespace lives and what protocol it speaks, and then let clients contact that resolver directly for resolving individual URNs. In short, yes people are working on the problem, and if you don't mind being a bit bleeding edge, there's code you can start playing with available. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 8 22:57:01 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: All this business... In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990608131922.013e7520@library.berkeley.edu> References: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990608135007.013e8100@library.berkeley.edu> At 01:19 PM 6/8/1999 -0700, Jerome McDonough wrote (without proof-reading very carefully): >Most of the URN crowd has been reluctant to put URN resolution on to DNS. >While DNS has the advantage of being a pre-existing, proven system, it is >already slightly strained, and putting URN resolution on it would add a >very significant burden once URNs are more widely adopted. For more >information on this, see Ron Daniel and Michael Mealling's discussion >in the introduction to RFC 2169. ^^^^^^^^ That's RFC 2168, not 2169. Sorry about that. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From fischer17 at llnl.gov Wed Jun 9 00:14:10 1999 From: fischer17 at llnl.gov (Aaron Fischer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: Inquiry: XSL Processor Engines Message-ID: <199906082216.PAA26438@poptop.llnl.gov> Greetings! I am in dire need of software that allows for the execution of XSL. Ideally, I would like an XSL engine which compiles XSL code into Java applets, but at this point I will entertain anything. Thank you for your time and whatever help you can provide. Sincerely, Aaron Fischer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net Wed Jun 9 01:44:13 1999 From: RDaniel at DATAFUSION.net (Ron Daniel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: All this business about namespace URNs... Message-ID: <0D611E39F997D0119F9100A0C931315C60F759@datafusionnt1> Just to clarify a point or two in Jerry's message: > Most of the URN crowd has been reluctant to put URN resolution on to > DNS. > [Ron Daniel] Very true. Cowards that we are, none of us would like to be fingered as the person responsible for breaking the global Domain Name System. > My take on looking over the URN Working > Group's documents is that the default assumption by the IETF > is that client software will first turn to DNS and ask where it can > find a > resolver > for a particular URN namespace (DNS will use NAPTR records to identify > resolvers > for particular URN name spaces) and then go to the resolver identified > by DNS > to resolve particular URNs. [Ron Daniel] A couple of clarifications. The main point is that the DNS itself is not used for looking up individual documents, instead it is used for locating 'resolvers' which hold databases of lots of document IDs and locations. Also, we want people to use this method LAST, not first. Use local resolvers first. (For example, to resolve UUID URNs someone might write some code that first looked into the client machine's registry. Catalogs could also be used for local resolution info). If that fails, try a workgroup or enterprise resolver. (For example, at Los Alamos we used to have a demo resolver which was a proxy server that trapped URNs, looked to see if they were from a namespace our library knew a lot about, and sent them to the library's resolver if they were. Only if that failed or if they were from another namespace did we try using the NAPTR-based resolution. regards, Ron xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cpxml at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 06:52:52 1999 From: cpxml at yahoo.com (CP XML) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge Message-ID: <19990609045504.18180.rocketmail@web1005.mail.yahoo.com> Hi Folks, This didn't work for me (I am using IE5). Can anybody give me the correct working version of this application. Thanks so much. -Swamy --- James Clark wrote: > You have to use the variables feature of the current > WD. Replace the > second TR element in your attempted solution by the > following: > > > > > select="../../Columns/Column"> > > expr="@name"/> > select="$cols[@name=$colname]"/> > > > > > > Roger Costello wrote: > > > > Hi Folks, > > > > Are you up for a mind-bending XSL problem? > Someone presented > > me with this problem several weeks ago and I have > yet to find > > a solution. It looks simple. It is deceptively > challenging. > > > > An XML document stores database data as follows: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A > > B > > C > > > > > > S > > E > > > > > > R > > G > > Q > > > > > > > > > > Note that the columns that we are interested in > are col1 and col2. > > A element may contain data from columns not > of interest. > > But, it will always contain at least data for col1 > and col2. > > > > The problem is to create an XSL stylesheet that > generates an > > HTML table with a table header: > > > > col1 col2 > > > > and within the table it has the row data. So the > HTML table > > should look like this: > > > > col1 col2 > > A C > > E S > > Q G > > > > I have shown an XML document which has just two > columns. However, > > the XSL stylesheet needs to be generic and capable > of handling > > XML documents with any number of columns (as > listed in the > > section). > > /Roger > > > > P.S. Below is what I tried, which doesn't work. > > > > > > xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xsl" > > result-ns="html"> > > > > > > > > Dynamic Table > > > > > > > > > > select="Columns/Column"> > > > > > > > > select="Rows/Row"> > > > > select="../../Columns/Column"> > > > > > > > > > >
select="@name"/>
> > > > select="../../Rows/Row/Column[@name='{@name}']"/>
> > > > > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, > mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa > (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Jun 9 08:23:51 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:54 2004 Subject: Imminent death of Namespaces predicted (was: Namespaces are dead.) Message-ID: <001801beb238$f1230770$53f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson >Rick Jelliffe writes: > > > If I have to change namespaces URIs to generate acceptable data for > > different uses, then namespaces are not providing universal names > > as they should. > One can hardly >claim in any fairness that this is a breakdown in Namespaces -- it's a >business problem that (with any scheme) can be solved only by the >long, laborious process of discussion, trial implementation, and >standardization. What has it has it got to do with business or discussions? Any application family (stylesheets, schemas, etc) which does not have a mechanism (like the stylesheet PI) to allow plurality of alternate technologies (like CSS, XSL, DSSSL) ties its names into a specific technology. W3C needs to make it standard procedure to define PIs (in whatever syntax) to allow this plurality. Everytime there is a major application family with no accompanying mechanism, it subverts the intent and use of namespaces. Instead of providing universal names, it provides application-specific names. Do you see the difference? It is a matter of providing a level playing-field. Of course we can reprocess a document at the server end and rename the namespace URIs for every different application; of course we can use content negotiation to use the namespace URI as a key to the specific application we are using; of course we can have a PI at the client that rewrites part of the DOM so that other applications can get to use the data. But it is an unnecessary complication: if we want open and extensible documents, they shouldn't gratuitously make it difficult to retarget the document for different applications. Of course when we use a different stylesheet language we may have to restructure the document for best use: but we should only have to do that to reflect the nature of the specific stylesheet language, not merely because we are allowing an *alternative* language. It is inefficent and promotes data capture, which is one of the reasons everyone wants to escape proprietary syntaxes. Data capture is when a data format gratuitously ties in data to a particular (vendor's or consortium's) technology: "embrace and extend" or "embrace and lock-out" are the same. We users demand that application-specific markup be cleanly partitioned in a documents; we want namespaces to be equally accessible for every use. > Exactly the same problem could occur with >Architectural Forms or any other mechanism for naming or subtyping. Without going into details about how much namespaces share with architectural forms...yes: it is a basic fragility of namespaces as currenly specified. It should not be solved ad hoc by discussion, but a standard procedure to enable extensibility and plurality. Namespaces are dead, not because they are wrong IMHO, but because they can be killed and are being killed, and we can safely predict that without a mechanism to prevent data capture in every public application area, they will be killed again in the future. The reason why I excluded literature in my initial post is that, with the Schema PIs, namespaces have escaped death for rendering applications. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Wed Jun 9 14:32:28 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file Message-ID: <01BEB253.30BFF9F0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Didier wrote: "Can you explain how with just a simple example. ... How would you transform this XML document above into a plain asci text? Can you show it with a XSL script?" Didier, I have an example of an XSLT stylesheet that converts an XML document into a plain ascii text file. The XML document is not the same as yours, but it's fairly simple. Here's the XML document: ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ -----Original Message----- From: Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 2:18 PM To: Robert C. Lyons; 'Mallikarjuna Sangappa'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: XML Document to ascii text file Hi, Can you explain how with just a simple example. Let's say the XML document is: This is the title One upon a time... How would you transform this XML document above into a plain asci text? Can you show it with a XSL script? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Robert C. Lyons Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 12:43 PM To: 'Mallikarjuna Sangappa'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: XML Document to ascii text file Malliks wrote: "Is there any program or tool which converts an XML document to ascii text file." Malliks, XSLT can do this. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xslt There are several free XSL processors available. For example, James Clark's XT (http://www.jclark.com/xml/xt.html). Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Wed Jun 9 14:37:10 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file Message-ID: <01BEB253.D85DD3D0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Didier wrote: "Can you explain how with just a simple example. ... How would you transform this XML document above into a plain asci text? Can you show it with a XSL script?" Didier, Oops. I sent that last message too soon. See below for an example of an XSLT stylesheet that converts an XML document into a plain ASCII text file. The XML document is not the same as yours, but it's fairly simple. Here's the XML document: Nancy Magill lil.magill@blackmountainhills.com (100) 555-9328 molly.jones@oblada.com Molly Jones (200) 555-3249 Penny Lane plane@bluesuburbanskies.com Here's the XSLT stylesheet that converts the XML document into an ASCII text file: [contact] name= email= phone= Here is the ASCII text file that is produced by the XSLT processor: [contact] name=Nancy Magill email=lil.magill@blackmountainhills.com phone=(100) 555-9328 [contact] email=molly.jones@oblada.com name=Molly Jones [contact] phone=(200) 555-3249 name=Penny Lane email=plane@bluesuburbanskies.com Hope this helps. Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 9 15:30:19 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: Imminent death of Namespaces predicted (was: Namespaces are dead.) In-Reply-To: <001801beb238$f1230770$53f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> References: <001801beb238$f1230770$53f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <14174.27231.414880.15098@localhost.localdomain> Rick Jelliffe writes: > What has it has it got to do with business or discussions? Any > application family (stylesheets, schemas, etc) which does not have > a mechanism (like the stylesheet PI) to allow plurality of > alternate technologies (like CSS, XSL, DSSSL) ties its names into a > specific technology. There's a many-to-many relationship between names and processes. I can take names from, say, the XHTML namespace, and process them any way I want. > W3C needs to make it standard procedure to define PIs (in whatever > syntax) to allow this plurality. I think that would be a little sloppy -- I strongly dislike mechanisms that force the document itself to specify how it should be processed (and I include the stylesheet PI in that list). > Everytime there is a major application family with no accompanying > mechanism, it subverts the intent and use of namespaces. Instead of > providing universal names, it provides application-specific names. > > Do you see the difference? Not at all -- the names are universal, and the processing applied to them is application specific. Consider, again, the XHTML element. Q. What does it represent? A. A thing known as 'HTML anchor' (or {http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1}a). Q. How do you process it? A. Any way you want: 1. Render it underlined and in blue. 2. Allow fielded searches to find specific words in its content. 3. Recursively index the document referred to by its 'href' attribute, if any. 4. Traverse a unidirectional link. 5. Generate a loud BEEP on the user's console. 6. Typeset the contents, and generate a footnote containing the value of the 'href' attribute, if any. 7. Ignore it. 8. Use a synthesized voice with a different pitch to read it aloud. Should I have a PI present to link to some sort of action sheet for each of these, and for 1,000 other processes that I could think of? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed Jun 9 17:44:45 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism Message-ID: <01c201beb28e$138d7390$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Carl Schei wrote: >>If I were to develop an application that could >> receive/deliver requests in XML Format, how exactly would it >receive/deliver >> the XML Data? >> >> I can think of, >> >> 1/ >> Flat Files. An Application generates an XML File which is sent to the >> another application to read and parse. Yep. >> >> 2/ >> Over HTTP. An application will generate an XML stream that will be passed >> via HTTP to a listening application. How exactly would this work - >> specifically in Java? Is there a standard way of opening up an HTTP >> connection and piping down the XML? Unfortunately I am not familiar with >> java.net.* classes. The XML data is placed into the body of the MIME message which is an HTTP request and/or response. This allows XML to be transmitted by SMTP as well. You can use a standard Content-Type: "text/xml" or "application/xml to indicate that the body is in XML format. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at catapultt.com Wed Jun 9 18:10:56 1999 From: carl at catapultt.com (Carl Schei) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism References: <01c201beb28e$138d7390$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <009901beb293$4b7e7d30$786f6f6f@womble> Hey Jonathan, Thanks for the info. > >> 2/ > >> Over HTTP. An application will generate an XML stream that will be passed > >> via HTTP to a listening application. How exactly would this work - > >> specifically in Java? Is there a standard way of opening up an HTTP > >> connection and piping down the XML? Unfortunately I am not familiar with > >> java.net.* classes. > > The XML data is placed into the body of the MIME message which is an > HTTP request and/or response. This allows XML to be transmitted by SMTP as > well. You can use a standard Content-Type: "text/xml" or "application/xml to > indicate that the body is in XML format. I gather that what you are proposing is that the Java program listen directly for the HTTP requests? Could this piggyback onto a web server somehow? Another proposal I found was using XML-RPC (http://www.xml-rpc.com). In the POST method inside your HTML you can execute an RPC and use as the transport mechanism XML, both as the request and the reply. I haven't figured out how your Java program would register itself with the Web Server, to expose the RPC calls that it is expecting. This would require a bit more research, on my side. Carl Schei Catapult Technology, Inc. (630) 515-3670 phone carl@catapultt.com http://www.catapultt.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 9 19:28:21 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism References: <01c201beb28e$138d7390$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <009901beb293$4b7e7d30$786f6f6f@womble> Message-ID: <375EA4B0.A271433F@pacbell.net> Carl Schei wrote: > > I gather that what you are proposing is that the Java program listen > directly for the HTTP requests? Could this piggyback onto a web server > somehow? Certainly. See the rpc/transport example in Sun's package, at http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/products/xml (it's now an updated release, TR2). That has both a client and a servlet component. Servlets plug into web servers; that could be Apache, or any other servet that talks servlets. The application can define whatever standard it chooses for how the data is exchanged. If XML is already in use it's easy to just exchange documents. If not, it may be desirable to use some predefined least-common-denominator DTD like "XML-RPC" does. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stetina at icsd.mot.com Wed Jun 9 21:28:38 1999 From: stetina at icsd.mot.com (Jennifer Stetina) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: scope of XML Message-ID: <910446169854D1119D4000805FED16B2927AFF@sam.casd.mot.com> I am looking for information on the following: XML-supported websites; specifically, a statistic or percentage that expresses how many of them there are today. An estimate or percentage of how big this will grow in the future How many of these sites are UK-based? US-based? If anyone knows the answers to these, or knows someone who does, please contact me. Jennifer Stetina -----Original Message----- From: Carl Schei [mailto:carl@catapultt.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 11:15 AM To: Jonathan Borden Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XML Transport Mechanism Hey Jonathan, Thanks for the info. > >> 2/ > >> Over HTTP. An application will generate an XML stream that will be passed > >> via HTTP to a listening application. How exactly would this work - > >> specifically in Java? Is there a standard way of opening up an HTTP > >> connection and piping down the XML? Unfortunately I am not familiar with > >> java.net.* classes. > > The XML data is placed into the body of the MIME message which is an > HTTP request and/or response. This allows XML to be transmitted by SMTP as > well. You can use a standard Content-Type: "text/xml" or "application/xml to > indicate that the body is in XML format. I gather that what you are proposing is that the Java program listen directly for the HTTP requests? Could this piggyback onto a web server somehow? Another proposal I found was using XML-RPC (http://www.xml-rpc.com). In the POST method inside your HTML you can execute an RPC and use as the transport mechanism XML, both as the request and the reply. I haven't figured out how your Java program would register itself with the Web Server, to expose the RPC calls that it is expecting. This would require a bit more research, on my side. Carl Schei Catapult Technology, Inc. (630) 515-3670 phone carl@catapultt.com http://www.catapultt.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From james at xmltree.com Wed Jun 9 22:00:47 1999 From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: scope of XML References: <910446169854D1119D4000805FED16B2927AFF@sam.casd.mot.com> Message-ID: <007001beb2b1$eea83870$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Dear Jennifer Some websites that provide xml content or xml interfaces are listed at www.xmlTree.com > XML-supported websites; specifically, a statistic or percentage that > expresses how many of them there are today. The number of websites which have made public their activities is still extremely small - I would guess less than 1000. I am sure that more private ones exist (I am informed, for example, that the intranet systems that Dialog Corp supplies are being rewritten, based on xml, and that Dell is exchanging product information using xml), but the business case for making public xml interfaces and content available hasn't been clearly identified yet. If anyone does know of other cases of xml content provision, I'd sure like to know! Best regards, James Carlyle james@xmltree.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 9 23:56:18 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: scope of XML References: <910446169854D1119D4000805FED16B2927AFF@sam.casd.mot.com> <007001beb2b1$eea83870$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Message-ID: <375EE261.4C7031D2@pacbell.net> "james@xmlTree.com" wrote: > > I am sure that more private ones exist... but the business case for > making public xml interfaces and content available hasn't been clearly > identified yet. And it's been complicated by inconsistent browser implementations of XML (vendors: get behind the Oasis effort!) and its supporting standards (ditto, www.webstandards.org). For example, I've gotten very good XML+CSS support out of Mozilla M6 but it hasn't worked very well with IE5 (no list styles, "pre" breaks, etc); and no browser conforms to XSL yet. Given that status quo -- the role of XML isn't yet downloading XML to clients. But I suspect that role will increase ... :-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu Jun 10 00:43:59 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:55 2004 Subject: Inquiry: XSL Processor Engines In-Reply-To: <199906082216.PAA26438@poptop.llnl.gov> References: <199906082216.PAA26438@poptop.llnl.gov> Message-ID: (Replying only to xml-dev.) * Aaron Fischer | | I am in dire need of software that allows for the execution of XSL. | Ideally, I would like an XSL engine which compiles XSL code into | Java applets, but at this point I will entertain anything. SAXON can compile XSL stylesheets into Java code (intended for server-side use, but worth a look): --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mlelist at citec.fi Thu Jun 10 01:17:50 1999 From: mlelist at citec.fi (Michael Leventhal) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE8D@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <375EF568.CB9DC3FF@citec.fi> The following article was posted on the xsl-list and the newsgroup comp.text.xml. My apologies to those that read more than one of these lists. Although most of you are probably tired on the XSL debate by now I felt this would interest some on this list. Mr. Deach, chair of the XSL Working Group, issued a personal response to my article in xml.com "XSL Considered Harmful" in the xsl-list mailing list. I felt his thoughtful article merited a follow-up from me. My other responsibilities have prevented me from answering many other equally compelling articles, for which I beg your understanding. I think Mr. Deach has done a good job of bringing most of issues into sharp focus so I hope these comments will answer the questions of many others as to my views. I am happy to let anyone that wishes to follow up on this article have the last word as I have had ample opportunity to let my thoughts be known but if anyone is terribly keen to pursue any particular point further please cc my email address at michael@textscience.com. I am at your service. The complete text of Mr. Deach's Response is quoted in sections in this article. > As a member of the XSL working group and having worked in the computer > industry for over 20 years on a broad spectrum of products to author, format, > and render communications vehicles of many kinds, (word processors; DTP > applications; commercial newspaper, magazine, directory, catalog, and > advertising production tools; slide show authoring; data base and document > management systems; web site authoring; photo image editing and retouching; > charting, illustration and engineering graphics; font creation and rendering; > and the internal software in typesetters and printers, etc.), some making > extensive use of structured content and stylesheets and some making little or no > use of stylesheets, I certainly qualify as an expert in document modeling, > content editing, styling, and formatting tools. I have seen debates of this > nature many times and prefer to ignore them, as they usually blow over. In this > case, due to the timing and the stridence of his statements, I feel it is > necessary to respond with my personal opinions on Mr. Leventhal's so-called > challenge. I further feel that it is necessary to respond because he makes a > series of claims (which I believe to be false) and then directs you to reach the > same conclusions and so vote. I appreciate the fact that my colleague, Mr. Deach, chair of the XSL Working Group, has taken the time to respond to my article and has taken considerable care in so doing. Perhaps it is appropriate to state something about my background as well. I have spent slightly little less time than Mr. Deach in the computer industry, about 16 years. One important difference in our experience is that the greater part of my career was not spent in the area of document-related tools and products. Among other things I spent many years working on software used in the design of integrated circuits and in magnetic resonance imaging. The last seven years of my career have been dedicated to electronic document software, touching on both structured and unstructured document technologies. I worked on a pre-Web SGML browser called Oracle Book, have been involved in the Web since its earliest days at CERN, and am currently working on my second browser, this one based on the mozilla open-source code. The reason I think my non-document related background is important is that it has always given me a different perspective on technologies like SGML and XML from that which is common to the vast majority of people working in this area. Most of my colleagues have traditionally had publishing-related backgrounds. I felt that SGML had the potential to fill a very critical niche as an information as opposed to document-related technology but simply had too much dross in it originating from the technical view of the publishing industry professionals that made the heaviest contribution to the development of the standard. I argued for a "purification" of SGML and at least some of my ideas had an influence on the creation of XML. I am still dissatisfied with XML as it still carries some of the dross from SGML but in this imperfect world it is something I can live with. I believe that at the core of the debate is the difference in view between those that see XML and the web primarily as an engine for traditional ideas about document publishing and a broader view not tied exclusively to publishing that sees XML as the primary interface layer to the multitude of ways in which we can use knowledge, computers, and networks. I should also mention again (it was already stated in the article) something about my experience with transformation. It did occur several times in the debate that noted advocates for XSL made the claim that I or anyone else that disagreed with their position did not understand XSL. Along similar lines some have said that my article was motivated by my economic interests. I have not responded to such statements since to the discerning reader they do more discredit to the person making them than they could ever do to me. But I do know and understand XSL as well as DSSSL as well as at least a dozen other approaches to transformation and have made my living as a professional in this area for several years, choosing the best and most efficient tool for the job without the least interest in ideological debates. I may add that I have received very strong support from my colleagues in this field who are today, as I was in the past, making their living from doing XML transformation. And my support for and preference for CSS goes back at least to 1997, long before I undertook my current project, as is evidenced by my article "XML and CSS", published in the W3C Journal in that year and reproduced in the very first issue of xml.com. Mr. Deach mentions the "timing and stridence" of my article. While I will always be extremely quick to apologize for rhetorical excess and any hint of impoliteness (difficult to avoid from time to time in this medium) I do think that the timing is appropriate and the stridence is proportionate with respect to the overall situation. I would like to share with you my view of "how the war began". I don't think you will find any stridence at all in my article "XML and CSS" or my book published last year, "Designing XML Internet Applications" (where I discuss both XSL and CSS) although I did not hesitate to express some doubts about XSL (or DSSSL) and to praise the simplicity and power of CSS. However, the situation begin to look very different in the last six to nine months when we saw Microsoft refusing to commit to correct support of CSS while introducing XML to web world in IE5 beta through XSL and conversion of XML to HTML on the client. I begin routinely encountering web users who had absolutely no idea that it was even possible to display XML without transformation to HTML - using, of course, Microsoft XSL. To make matters worse, what users were encountering was a proprietary implementation of XSL far in advance of even the Proposed Recommendation stage which would give it status as at least a probable future web standard that would be reliable in its broader outlines. In my view experts in the XML community were doing everything possible to encourage this state of affairs - there was quite nearly a "blackout" on the mention of alternatives to transformation and alternatives to formatting such as CSS. You can not find better proof of this than the fact that neither CSS nor the DOM is even mentioned as a "standards related to XML" on the SGML/XML on the Web Page. As I said to Robin Cover, the editor of the SGML/XML on the Web Page, this is a profound disservice to the newcomer to XML who has no indication that the simple stylesheet language he may already know from his use of HTML can be used to quickly display his XML in a web browser supporting current W3C standards. Instead he is directed to use a declarative transformation language which is still a W3C Working Draft to do a document-to-document transformation to a new presentation-oriented XML language for which no implementation in browsers currently exists. I realized what a disastrous situation had emerged, and to large measure been created by the XML community itself. The Microsoft browser supports XSL transformations and the Mozilla browser took the CSS route. The very raison-d'?tre of the W3C had been shot straight through the heart as it was not going to be possible to create one XML web page with one stylesheet and to see it correctly displayed in any browser. And all partisanship aside it was obvious who was right and who was wrong: CSS is a W3C Recommendation, XSL is not. I decided that I must speak out on this issue. I began posting to comp.text.xml but met mostly incomprehension from people coming over from the Microsoft XML list that were convinced that the only proper way to handle XML documents was to use Microsoft XSL to convert them to HTML and from the few XML folks that deigned to pay attention and only wanted to deflect the argument into a pointless debate about whether transformation programs were better written in XSL declarative syntax or in a procedural language. One person who finally did respond was Ken Holman after I confronted him on the stage at the Swedish XML/SGML User's conference with the statement that XSL advocates bore heavy responsibility for ensuring that we did not have a common stylesheet language for XML in browsers. Ken was unable to respond directly to my perfectly accurate assertion but reiterated that he thought that transformation was important and that XSL was the way to do it. He later wrote the article that appeared in xml.com where he attempted to diffuse the "perceived controversy" between XSL and CSS although without addressing the major points of the controversy. My article in xml.com was originally entitled "A Rebuttal" and was no more than attempt to present the an "other side" which heretofore had been suppressed by the XML community. But it was not actually when I read Ken's article that the "war" began, it was a bit earlier when I read Tim Bray and Jon Bosak's article in Scientific American where it was stated that XSL was "the" stylesheet language for XML. In demographic terms Scientific American readers are one of the most influential publication-defined communities on the planet. It was then that I said "This is war, it has to be a war." Finally, Mr. Deach says I make a series of claims which he believes to be false and goes on to, in his view, refute them. When I made my "declaration of war" I did make a strong and open challenge to XSL and thereby exposed myself and my ideas to, shall we say, extremely intense scrutiny by XSL advocates. Frankly, I am surprised that I did as well as I did, I think that in that an impartial judge would say that each of my major points essentially held. On many points there was essentially no debate whatsoever. For example: A programming or scripting language with the DOM provides a more powerful transformation capability than XSL-transformation. XSL-FO does not provide any clear advantages over CSS formatting and CSS is, in fact, a powerful formatting language for XML. XSL provides no solution to interactivity. These three points alone represent to me an enormous, "captured ground". The fact is that the whole situation is completely reversed from what it was before I launched my "war". The person looking into XML today is not going to hear that XSL is "the" stylesheet language for XML. No one is going to claim that CSS, which happens to be the current W3C Recommendation, is not a viable alternative to XSL, no XML consultant would dare not to mention CSS. No one can claim that there are no alternatives to XSL transformations or even that XSL transformations are indispensable. No one can ignore the fact any longer that vendors have not agreed on a single stylesheet standard for the Web. The large numbers of people that do not want a declarative transformation language, do not want to go through a document-to-document transformation to even see their XML documents, and do not want a supercharged FONT tag language to replace semantically-rich XML now understand that there are viable alternatives - that these things are not "the" XML story. Those that think XML should be useful in creating a real application environment in Web browsers are relieved to know that XSL is not "the" XML story. I have not enjoyed the "war", I would rather express myself in very cool code rather than write articles, but I think I have reason to be proud of these accomplishments. And on these points alone it is clear that the correct action for W3C members remains, clearly, to vote against an XSL Recommendation. As it currently stands this is very essential because XSL-FO must be dropped. XSL-FO is entirely redundant with CSS, restricts or eliminates interactivity, and encourages or even requires the elimination of semantic information from transformed Web documents. Even among those who staunchly defended XSL-transformations there was broad support for this position. The least that should be done is to separate XSL-FO and XSL-transformations into two entirely separate initiatives. I also advocate against approving a separate XSL-transformation Recommendation as XSL-transformation does not serve any of the purposes for which the W3C creates Recommendations. Recommendations are there for key infrastructure which must be interoperable. Multiple and redundant recommendations work against, not for, interoperability. A document-to-document transformation language like XSL has not been shown to be an interoperability requirement and in any case is redundant with already existing Recommendations. No one has successfully argued that the existing Recommendations are inadequate, let alone that they could not improved to add new capabilities. That said, there is no reason why work on XSL-transformation can not or should not continue outside of the W3C. An additional XML tool is always welcome as long as it does not compromise the interoperable environment of the Web. > I must at this point, for legal reasons, re-emphasize that these are my own > opinions and not necessarily those of the XSL-WG nor necessarily those of my > employer. > The timing of his challenge is inappropriate because XSL is still a working > draft, yet he claims XSL is deficient because: If the timing of the challenge is inappropriate it is clear that the timing of the debate is not. But the XSL community has accepted my point that other transformation methods are more powerful than XSL. No one has suggested that a later point in time XSL will be more powerful than can be imagined or realized today. > a) XSL is a future technology > Response: This is what a working draft is, by definition, a future > technology. Every technology goes through this phase. > > b) The specification is in flux and there is significant change from > draft to draft > Response: Keeping the public informed about the current state of the > W3C's efforts, making the rate of change and degree of change visible to the > public is exactly W3C's goal in requiring the publication of working > drafts. > > c) Only limited preliminary tools to use it exist > Response: but tools do exist and the users of these tools have > provided substantive feedback that has lead to improvements in XSL. > > d) Those tools are incomplete or don't implement the latest version > of the draft > Response: Again, exactly what one would expect as a specification > evolves. Yes, so I have said myself, and stated that responsible conduct by the XML community would have been to point new users and vendors at existing Recommendations. > The terms of the challenge are extremely vague, they can be tailored so that > both sides could declare victory. The outcome of a challenge whose 2 criteria > for measurement "better" and meaningful" is guaranteed to be indeterminate. Both > terms can only be measured "in the eye of the beholder". > A number of claims are made about the value of XSL on the web. Many of these > claims are either false or they completely miss the point. Well, ok. Let's see. > Claim 1 Interactivity is a requirement for a technology to be useful > on the web. > Response: This is completely false. The vast majority of web sites are > essentially static. Interactivity, beyond traversal/addressing and some level of > data-entry (form fill-in) has little value for a huge class of meaningful > sites/documents. I really can't see the connection between "completely false" and the explanation of why that might be so. I think I'll just stick to it, a transformation technology which does support interactivity and the browser environment pretty much has no role to play in a browser. As I put it, "in the evolution of web technology into the new desktop", close to an irrefutable statement. It may not be true that the vast majority of web sites are essentially static but certainly the fast majority of web pages are. But evolving web technology doesn't exist to create a web as it exists today. I think I provided a pretty good list of real interesting things that can be done with interactivity "beyond traversal/addressing and some level of data-entry" in my article. And I don't think the web community in general is going to share Mr. Deach blas? feeling about interactivity. > Claim 2 XSL precludes interactivity. > Response: No more so than CSS. Well, does Mr. Deach care about interactivity or not? It is DOM+CSS that I described as the combination that gives transformation and interactivity and styling. > Claim 3 Print has no place on the web. I said the Web is "not about paper documents" and the web was not the place to do page composition. Everyone likes to be able to print documents, that isn't the issue, it is whether you should expect to get FrameMaker+SGML documents out of a web browser or not using a page composition engine. > Response: This issue has been discussed extensively in the XML.com > mail forum and on the mulberrytech.com's xsl-list (public comment list for XSL). > The fundamental responses have been: > For a large number of people, print is important. The web is as much about > formerly paper-only documents and print-on-demand as it is about interactive > and animated ones. For which there are existing technologies, fortunately not inside the browser. > Paged composition is not significantly more computationally intensive than > browser formatting. Ridiculous. > Paged views (fit to the window and/or page) are extremely useful for some > content. For which ... existing technologies ... > Claims that the market for repurposing is a handful do not explain the > robust attendance in these sessions at Seybold Seminars and other conferences > for the past 3 years. Repurposing has nothing to do with whether a page composition engine should be inside a browser. > Though one could create separate stylesheets in CSS for viewers, XSL for > print-on-demand, PDF for critical print, etc. I don't want to if I'm not > forced to. The training cost and error rate is unacceptable. The vast majority of web users don't even want to create stylesheets, let alone declarative transformation programs like XSL. FINALLY, as H?kon Lie has pointed out, even if you want to do page composition in the browser XSL still does not do that for you. Transformation is far from enough. > Claim 4 XSL is a danger because it removes semantic meaning. > Response: XSL allows you to preserve the semantic meaning of your XML > by not polluting the XML with presentation (as happens in HTML and in HTML+CSS > today with semantic-free divs & spans and with the widespread misuse of the > remaining tags). What does HTML have to do with using XML and a stylesheet? FOs are a font tag language which remove the semantics from otherwise perfectly fine XML that could be displayed with CSS or transformed with the DOM and keep all the semantic information. That simple! > Claim 5 FOs are bad > Response: A related FUD issue to the claim that they remove semantic > meaning. This issue originated in a paper posted by Mr. Lie (and referenced by > Mr. Leventhal). You should also look at the archives of the mulberrytech.com's > xsl-list to evaluate the response to Mr. Lie's paper and e-mails. Many of his > key points were disputed or discredited. Our distinguished colleague and author of a very thoughtful and cautious paper is furthest thing from a dispenser of "FUD" that I can possibly think of. I combed through every single article in the Lie-Prescod FO debate and I came to conclusion that Mr. Lie's arguments were rock solid which is why I simply pointed to his paper rather than try to better his statement of the problem. There was a major sidetrack on HTML and divs which I found not at all relevant. > I refer you also to James Tauber's response to this issue: CSS tags ARE > formatting objects. The 'display' property identifies the fundamental formatting > behavior of the element, this is exactly what an XSL-FO does. I would add: > XSL-FOs are simply more general (cover a broader scope), and defined in a manner > that has fewer side-effects (interdependencies). If anything, CSS is the > "supercharged FONT tag", XSL at least compartmentalizes the side effects. Yes, I like this line of argument very much because I realized the reverse is even more true and it blows away your entire rationale for having an FO standard. Just improve CSS however you like and if someone wants an FO language they can make elements fo1 to fo653 and map each of them to a CSS style. Fortunately it is going to be really rare than anyone needs to do that and for the majority of users they will be introduced to simple CSS stylesheets that encourage them to think stylesheet and semantics rather than going into the whole business of transformation to another language. The FOs nearly guarantee word processor-like stylesheet abuse. Really, it often seems to me that you want to turn the Web browser into Microsoft Word! > Claim 6 XSL gives me nothing new > Response: There is a huge class of documents that are not made > available on the web, because either formatting/pagination is inadequate using > existing standards, or because they must be broken into little sub-documents for > presentation. XSL gives me a much more convenient and format-rich way to > transition this broad class of paper documents to the web. XSL also makes it > easier to build stylesheets for those documents that need to be authored for > both online and print media (including print-on-demand). We are back to the Print arguments, please see above. Nothing new in this nothing new section! > In this class of documents I would include: any document used in a business > transaction or legal context (including proposals, requirements documents, > contracts, court filings, insurance policies, tax documents, safety notices, > forms); any document used in a design or manufacturing context (design and > manufacturing specifications); any document used in a service, customer > relations or customer support context (various types of manuals, instructional > inserts); any document used in promotional context (catalogs, e-catalogs, > newsletters, brochures, and mailings); any document used in an educational > context (including textbooks); and the bastions of traditional print > (books/e-books, newspapers (?), magazines/e-zines). These documents are > meaningful because people either pay for them or pay to produce them. > Claim 7 I can do all the formatting you can by adding a few minor > tweaks to CSS > Response: Anyone who has built more than one or two formatters (and I > have built over a dozen) recognizes that to add proper pagination and layout to > CSS requires quite a bit more than a few tweaks. Again, see Print. Where should page composition be done and with what tools? XSL isn't enough. Let's have the whole story. On the other hand, simple pagination is a reasonable CSS goal. > Claim 8 Anything you can do in XSL, Mr. Leventhal claims he can do in > some combination of existing web standards: the DOM, CSS, and scripting > Response: One, not all the technologies referred to are web standards or W3C Two, at least. Right? And for the scripting, ECMAscript by reference and the language-specific binding in the DOM make the third at least debatable. > Recommendations. Two, this misses a key point. As a programmer, Mr. Leventhal > can do anything. But most users aren't programmers and vehemently don't want to > become one. XSL can be built into tools that the web designer or graphic artist > can use, that are predictable and implementable. Dealt with adequately and fairly in my paper. What is false is that XSL makes anything difficult any easier. Just about any serious transformation takes someone with the skills equivalent to some kind of programmer. Fortunately the vast majority of web documents will be very happy with a CSS stylesheet. It is XSL that sets the entry bar unreasonably high. And not only are we not going to see reasonable transformation scripting tools that for graphic artists but most people would rather you didn't hand them a language for which they must have such tools before they can do anything. > Claim 9 XSL didn't take into account anything learned from history (I > assume this means CSS) I don't know where this is from. My two favorite themes have been the history of the development of programming languages (declarative transformation languages have been tried and failed) or the history of the evolution of the web (stepwise refinement of the existing environment unless there is a truly compelling leap possible). The discussion which follows about XSL and CSS is not a point I have ever gone into. > Response: This is completely false. XSL had significant participation > from users and implementors of CSS as well as participation by a number of > members of the CSS WG, including the CSS&FP chair. In addition, the XSL WG > membership includes participants that worked on DSSSL and/or have experience in > building commercial formatting and authoring products that averages 10+ years > each. > XSL includes all the formatting capability of CSS and nearly all the CSS > properties (verbatim). It similarly includes much of the capability of DSSSL, in > a more approachable manner. > And no, XSL is not "DSSSL in sheep's clothing". The XSL submission and > charter require the XSL WG to support the functionality of both CSS & DSSSL. > Well over half the effort of the group defining the XSL formatting objects was > to understand the full capabilities, the property interactions, the > discrepancies, and the limitations of BOTH these formatting languages, then > redefine the formatting model in a compatible manner. XSL fully incorporates the > formatting capability of CSS. > DSSSL was a well-thought-out solution to most of the problems that they were > trying to solve. That problem differs from XSL's, hence DSSSL is not a > sufficient answer to the web formatting problem. > The same can be said of CSS, it is a good solution for the problem that it > was originally intended to solve. However, attempting to extend it to solve the > range of problems that XSL is intended to address will make it an ugly and > unimplementable language. A different architecture is required to support some > of the extensibility that XSL requires. > As with any solution there are things one didn't consider, mistakes that are > made, and features deferred to the next release. Because a solution isn't > perfect doesn't mean it isn't useful. (If that were true, we should ban HTML, > CSS, XML, XSL, SGML, & every other W3C, ISO, ECMA, IETF, etc. standard. None > are perfect.) But we have never had a complete implementation of CSS1, let alone CSS2. I wonder how much we can all really understand so we can build on this effectively? We had many years to think about the flaws of SGML before we created XML. We had an enormous test bed for each revision of HTML before the next came along. We have not gone up the learning curve with CSS. I hear claims like "DSSSL is not a sufficient answer to the web formatting problem", and a "different architecture [from CSS'] is needed to support some of the extensibility that XSL requires" without support for the assertions. I don't think either of these assertions are true. DSSSL does arbitrary transformation, period. What is wrong with DSSSL? What is meant with "different architecture" is usually simply the transformation capability. Which has been shown can be done in other ways, when and where it is needed. > Claim 10 XSL is in competition with CSS. > Response: Most of the developers of XSL consider the 2 complementary, > not competing. CSS provides a convenient and workable mechanism for those > documents to which it is suited. XSL extends the market to documents and styling > requirements that are not well addressed by CSS. The W3C has established a joint > committee to maintain compatibility between XSL's & CSS's formatting models > and properties. Well, let's see you get 100% beyond a full CSS1 and CSS2 implementations in browsers, let's see you second my (polite and appreciative) note of protest to the SGML/XML on the Web page about the omission of CSS as a related XML standard, let's see you amplify my warning about the fact that we do not have a single stylesheet standard for XML today and maybe, maybe, I will begin to lend some credence to your claim here. > Claim 11 XSL is hard > Response: Experience with the preliminary implementations of XSLT have > shown this to be untrue. For simple things, XSL is no harder than CSS. For some > of the more complex things (that one can't do in CSS alone, it does become more > difficult, but it is less difficult than learning the DOM and scripting for > someone who doesn't already know them or for someone who isn't a programmer. Stylesheets have been a part of the web for years as well as part of authoring tools for many more years. This is a somewhat familiar concept to the average computer literate person. It is preposterous to suggest that document-to-document transformation is as easy as a stylesheet. I have compared the difficulty of DOM and scripting compared to XSL on the basis of experience with declarative vs. procedural languages on the fact that programming languages support modular construction and other features to ease the writing of maintainable programs, and that virtually any programming language is will permit one to perform a plethora of common and essential tasks that are not supported in XSL. I haven't seen any refutation of these points. > Claim 12 Scripting is more powerful than a declarative language > Response: This is true, as far as it goes. It also forces everyone to > be a programmer. XSL is a declarative language, not because declarative > languages are easier to use or more powerful, it is because declarative > languages are more implementable and more reliable. Having had firsthand > experience with PostScript (a procedural language) and PDF (a declarative > language) prior to joining Adobe, one finds that one gets only moderate gains in > the ease of authoring in the declarative language and that the declarative > language does have some limitations in capability. The biggest gain in switching > to a declarative language is in predictability and reliability of the authored > input (it can be validated) and in the ease of developing correct > implementations of the formatter. If the goal of all this were just to write a formatter. So are you willing to say that as a general transformation engine XSL is not really useful and that it really is designed only to provide one part of a page composition engine? > I can always find a class of problems where a highly tailored solution is > cheaper than a general one (or where a specific programming language solves a > problem better than another language), however, this is not the true cost of > that solution. I must always ask: a.) Does the general solution cover my problem > space? If not use another tool or a mixture of tools. (However, because it > doesn't meet this criteria for your problems doesn't mean it isn't useful for > mine.) b.) Does it support my aggregate of problems at a lower cost than custom > tailored solutions to each individual problem. (However, because it doesn't meet > this criteria for your problems doesn't mean it isn't useful for mine.) c.) If > there is a significant subset of my problem space that can be answered by a > cheaper solution, shouldn't I adopt it? (YES). If the remaining problem space > can't be cost-effectively covered by the cheap solution, shouldn't I be allowed > to solve the problem using a solution appropriate to that problem space? (YES, > if truly cost-effective) The analysis is fine but the question still remains - how narrow is the solution space? The professionals from the transformation field are saying that XSL is too narrow for general transformation. I don't see any disagreement with this essential point. I think that in addition to joining me supporting CSS you probably should also be with me on the DOM and transformation as well. If you are willing to admit that all XSL can and should do is perform page composition I'll be only too happy to leave you in peace. > Claim 13 XSL stands no chance of being accepted on the web. > Response: I don't think this claim holds any water. IBM, Lotus, and > Microsoft have all announced support for XSLT. James Clark, Lotus and Microsoft > have released demonstration implementations. Several implementations of > formatting software have been announced and James Tauber demonstrated his at > WWW8 (two weeks after the latest Draft was available). I think there is clear > support for both the transformation and the formatting components of XSL, and > this is a fairly strong commitment for a draft specification. The feedback these > implementors and the WG are receiving do NOT substantiate Mr. Leventhal's > claims. People find this language useful, sufficient for most intended tasks, > and understandable (albeit non-trivial to learn). Improvements have been made to > the transformation language as a result of this substantive feedback." Well, I've been getting different feedback. I don't think we've heard from the broad web community yet. The W3C is not a purely industrial consortium and we have a self-interest as well as human interest in taking into account the effect of what we do on humankind for whom the Web has become the gateway to our collective knowledge. XSL is not a technology which is going to make participating in the Web easier or better for the majority of users and it is not to enable critical applications with additions to the infrastructure which do not exist today. > Conclusion > With every change in technology, there are a number of people who have fallen > in love with the status quo and attempt to derail the evolving new technology. > They say such things as: the new technology is some pipe dream of the future, it > is unproven, it is inefficient, it is hard to learn and hard to use. It is a > threat to what I know and love; something new I am being forced to learn. -- On > the new technology's inception, certainly all those things are true, but what > happens in 2 years? What happened when people moved from FORTRAN to Pascal? from > Pascal to C? from C to C++? from proprietary printer/typesetter languages to > PostScript? from PostScript to PDF? from proprietary composition systems to DTP? > from ink, rubylith and darkrooms to Illustrator and Photoshop? The same thing > will happen to the web's content and styling standards, the technology that > provides an answer to your problem will become the one that you use. Some will > fall to disuse, the remainder will live on and complement each other. > Mr. Leventhal appears to be saying that the web world can not be allowed to > advance beyond what it has today. Nor does it appear that he would allow the W3C > to define alternate approaches to a problem or define new approaches to problems > that are not well served by existing W3C Recommendations if there is any overlap > between this alternate solution and an existing Recommendation. Such a policy > would be crippling to the future growth of the Web. The most amusing thing I read in the whole XSL debate was the article by a gentleman who attempting to depict me as a grouchy old grandpa sitting in a rocking chair on his sagging porch, chewing on a pipe and grumbling "Dag-nabit, all those young whipper-snappers want to go and change everything, why in my day we didn't have all those darn-tootin fancy languages, why we wrote computer programs in Assembler and if it didn't work we just tapped on those darn transistor tubes and everything worked just fine, those were the days". Arguing against a technology which one considers a wrong turn and a serious one at that is not the same as being against technology progressing. Obviously. > If XSL provides a better mechanism to support online presentation, it is > clearly in the web community's interest. Not demonstrated. > If it provides a better solution to > print it is clearly in the web community's interest. First we need to define the problem as such and not a problem of general transformation or styling. Once we do that we need to know a little bit more about the formatting backend. And than we will decide if it is all worth it. > If it provides a common > mechanism to support print and online presentation it is clearly in the web > community's interest. If it does all of these, even better. There is no sense to "common mechanism". It appears that we have a good online presentation system, Mr. Deach argues that we need a page composition system, and there is no argument defending the idea that they need to be common. > From preliminary indications, XSL seems implementable and useful, thus Mr. > Leventhal's request to stop work on XSL (at least until CSS-2 is fully > implemented on every platform) is not only unrealistic, but is detrimental to > the web, since it would delay widespread support for XSL. > One size does not fit all. If you are happy with CSS, the DOM, and scripting > then use them; but don't prevent me from solving my problem. You are welcome to solve your problem. The question whether you should have a W3C Recommendation to do it with since W3C Recommendations, if they are to remain meaningful, become an indispensable part of the interoperable Web infrastructure. Michael Leventhal xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Thu Jun 10 03:12:47 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <005201beb2de$fed35860$dad6d6cf@g0f2n0> Hello. >> Claim 3 Print has no place on the web. > I said the Web is "not about paper documents" and the web was not the > place to do page composition. Everyone likes to be able to print > documents, that isn't the issue, it is whether you should expect to get > FrameMaker+SGML documents out of a web browser or not using > a page composition engine. One practical comment. Even Web is "not about paper documents" ( actualy I don't understand what does it mean ) there is some constant need to place documents with complex layouts to the Web. (It's why we have a buch of RTF2HTML, MIF2HTML e t.c. converters, Net-It startup e t.c.). I spent a couple of months implementing '1-to-1' converters for RTF and MIF, trying to keep tables, N-columns layouts e t.c. Of course supporting all the goods is impossible with HTML, but it is not my point. With MIF you can ( more or less ) do XML / CSS without reimplementing FrameMaker rendering engine, because MIF keeps columns content separated ( thanks to Frame ). With RTF if you want to render layout with 2 columns and if you want to go XML / CSS you *should* reimplement some *significant* part of Word rendering engine ( simply to understand where the contents of first column ends ;-) It's why MS Word from Office 2000 still has some ...problems ... with complex RTF layouts... Being implemented, FO can handle both RTF and MIF resanobly easy ( resanoble and easy ). I'm just saying that FO model can handle some things with complex layouts *much* better than CSS / DOM e t.c and people *do* need complex layouts on the Web. > XSL-FO does not provide any clear advantages over CSS formatting and > CSS is, in fact, a powerful formatting language for XML. That is not true. Mapping complex RTF document to FO is doable. Mapping it to CSS seems to be *impossible* without rewriting significant part of Word rendering engine ( or FO engine ;-). The funny thing is that after implementing XSL FO you *can* render such things to CSS, because ... well ... XSL FO rendering is hard to implement, but being implemented it is powerful. Of course, you can replace 'RTF' with 'FORMAT X' ( even FORMAT X would be XML. Nobody can predict what particular XML would be created by some vendor in the future ). > If the goal of all this were just to write a formatter. So are you > willing to say that as a general transformation engine XSL is not really > useful and that it really is designed only to provide one part of a > page composition engine Maybe you are right. Maybe some day it would be possible to redesign FO and CSS so that : XSLT would be for transformations FO objects would handle page composition CSS objects would handle single page ( Definately, CSS objects have many common with FO objects, where FO is a superset of CSS. Actualy some kind of mapping FO's to some kind of CSS already inside FO implementations on the level of internal structures. ;-) Or something like that. Until such redesign: XSL already has XSL XSL already has FO XSL already has superset of CSS As a result - it is very powrful engine and when first FO implementation would appear, it'l be not easy for you to beat it with DOM / CSS ( especialy if you'l be asked to do something that deals with N-columns RTF document ;-) My 2c. Rgds.Paul. paul@pault.com www.pault.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Jun 10 03:17:27 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <375EF568.CB9DC3FF@citec.fi> Message-ID: <000901beb2de$0b645080$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> The XSL WG is doing a terrific job of developing an excellent standard in a difficult problem domain. There is ample room in this world for ideas, languages and implementations. The concept that development of one idea stiffles development of competetive ideas is at best amusing. The world has too few ideas and too few languages for expressing these ideas not to many. In a good competitive environment, you pick the features your product will support. The 'marketplace' will either accept or reject your product based upon these features. I have a right to use and develop systems using XSL. You are arguing against my freedom to develop systems using the standard of my choice. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lucio.piccoli at one2one.co.uk Thu Jun 10 10:50:20 1999 From: lucio.piccoli at one2one.co.uk (LUCIO PICOLLI) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism Message-ID: <3603e7c3.100599@smtpgate1.ONE2ONE.CO.UK> > > > > The XML data is placed into the body of the MIME > message which is an > > HTTP request and/or response. This allows XML to be > transmitted by SMTP as > > well. You can use a standard Content-Type: "text/xml" or > "application/xml > to > > indicate that the body is in XML format. > > I gather that what you are proposing is that the Java program listen > directly for the HTTP requests? Could this piggyback onto a web server > somehow? The easiest way i have found is to use a servlet. Creating a XML processing servlet is easy to implement as all the HTTP protocol is handled by the servlet engine. Of cause this is a Java only solution;-) -lp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tms at ansa.co.uk Thu Jun 10 11:57:38 1999 From: tms at ansa.co.uk (Toby Speight) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values In-Reply-To: Mallikarjuna Sangappa's message of "Fri, 21 May 1999 12:54:14 -0700 (PDT)" References: <19990521195414.19283.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: MS> Mallikarjuna Sangappa 0> In article 0> <19990521195414.19283.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>, MS wrote: MS> MS> MS> MS> MS> It is not working in both the cases. Please throw MS> some light on this. Thank U. Members of an enumerated type must be NMTOKENs (production 59 in section 3.3.1). -- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:20:04 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853140184@SENMAIL3> I've just started to work with Microsoft's Data Schema's instead of DTD's and it is so much easier and intuitive. I am thinking of moving exclusively to using schema. But, I know this is still in draft, so who is using it and what's likely to change - I imagine that this shall definitely overtake DTD's, but how soon ?? steven Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Jun 10 12:30:12 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values Message-ID: <01BEB33C.F923B870@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Toby Speight wrote: > MS> Mallikarjuna Sangappa > > 0> In article > 0> <19990521195414.19283.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com>, MS wrote: > > MS> > MS> > MS> > MS> > MS> It is not working in both the cases. Please throw > MS> some light on this. Thank U. > > Members of an enumerated type must be NMTOKENs (production 59 in > section 3.3.1). 1 and 2 are NMTOKENs; they are not Names. See productions [7] and [4]. -- Ron Bourret -- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tms at ansa.co.uk Thu Jun 10 12:32:16 1999 From: tms at ansa.co.uk (Toby Speight) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: Mark Birbeck's message of "Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:34:36 +0100" References: Message-ID: Mark> Mark Birbeck 0> In article 0> , 0> Mark wrote: Mark> It's annoying because if I remove the DOCTYPE declaration to get Mark> past the parser, then I lose the ability to use ' ' and Mark> such-like. Does it help to override the relevant ATTLIST declarations earlier in the DTD (e.g. in the internal subset if you have the main DTD in the external one)? Or does IE dislike this also? -- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Thu Jun 10 14:01:43 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: q: as/400 idiot-proof xml conversion tool Message-ID: does anyone know if software exists for the as/400 platform that would make it easy for an as/400 database administrator to convert an xml document to a flat file before mapping that flat file into their database? we're looking for something that is a GUI or command line commercial product ready to work 'out of the box'. the issue is that we provide an xml document to our customers and they don't have the expertise to input that xml into their database - if there was a tool available for them (they are NOT tech-savvy), then they might be able to convert the xml into a flat file on the as/400 in the format that they need to do the database insert. also, it would be wonderful if this xml tool could also do the reverse and convert a flat file into an xml document for them to give us.... am I dreaming? thanks for your time, -mark cheek p/s - I've been all over www.xmlsoftware.com but cannot find a tool that fits this scenario.. most tools appear to be java or Perl modules that you drop in to your existing projects... ..Mark Cheek.. ''The two most important tools an architect has are the eraser in the drawing room and the sledge hammer on the construction site.'' - Frank Lloyd Wright xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bd at internet-etc.com Thu Jun 10 13:59:27 1999 From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: X-Schema In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853140184@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: <000601beb338$72388600$de8ebc3e@p300> We use schemas instead of DTD's for all work around IE5 and Office2000, and are now tapping into the Office2000 schemas (though we'd like more info from Microsoft on these). We have it from Microsoft that they will follow the W3C as it defines schema standards. Currently these are still in early draft. In theory you can expect changes in the MS schema platform as W3C finalises, possibly as service releases, certainly in new products. However, this could create problems for people who have already developed schemas to Microsoft's spec - forcing Microsoft to support both schema standards. Another problem which could occur after standardisation if you're trying to develop W3C-compliant schemas on a Microsoft product using an older MSXML object which supports only MS Schemas. We have two ways around this - namespaces is the most obvious. Alternatively, a dirty trick is to call the W3C schema DTD's, which should impose the W3C schema onto the MSXML object (assuming it processes external DTD's after loading its own schema, not the other way around). Brandt Dainow bd@internet-etc.com Internet Etc Ltd http://www.internet-etc.com >-----Original Message----- >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On >Behalf Of >Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM >Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 11:16 AM >To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Subject: X-Schema > > >I've just started to work with Microsoft's Data Schema's >instead of DTD's >and it is so much easier and intuitive. > >I am thinking of moving exclusively to using schema. > >But, I know this is still in draft, so who is using it and >what's likely to >change - I imagine that this shall definitely overtake DTD's, >but how soon >?? > >steven > >Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip > >Steven Livingstone >President, AIP Scotland. >ceo@citix.com >http://www.citix.com > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Jun 10 15:00:41 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <000901beb2de$0b645080$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> References: <375EF568.CB9DC3FF@citec.fi> Message-ID: <199906101302.JAA30157@hesketh.net> At 09:10 PM 6/9/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: >I have a right to use and develop systems using XSL. You are arguing against >my freedom to develop systems using the standard of my choice. Rights? Are you kidding? In standards you have no rights, except maybe the right to complain. You still have plenty of freedom to develop systems - it just may not be the 'standard' of your choice. Like it or not, if Tim Berners-Lee decides he doesn't like XSL (seems unlikely but possible to me), it won't become a W3C recommendation. Period. XSL will probably just move someplace else, but the 'standard' of your choice will have to come from another body. (And yes, I know the W3C isn't technically a 'standards' body in the IS0 sense.) W3C process may suck, but it hardly means that you have rights. This is almost as irritating as those people who go on about Microsoft's 'right to innovate'. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Thu Jun 10 15:20:32 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: IE4 & XML Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853140194@SENMAIL3> I read recently that MS are to make a realease for IE 4 which shall upgrade it's XML capabilities - to what level?? Direct Browing & XSL support?... Anybody know? steven Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ckaiman at i3solutions.com Thu Jun 10 15:44:39 1999 From: ckaiman at i3solutions.com (Charlie Kaiman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <01BEB326.09769C90.ckaiman@i3solutions.com> I received some good insight into this just yesterday: [Which you should use depends upon] when you need it and what you need it to do. If you need to reach the most parsers, and are willing to give up datatypes and namespace support, use DTDs. We are recommending that many of our clients use XML-Data Reduced, as documented at http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp because this gives you datatypes and namespace support, though this is currently supported only in shipping Microsoft and Datachannel parsers. If you can wait six months to a year, the W3C is working on a new schema language that may or may not be similar to XML-Data Reduced. Hope that helps you. Charlie Kaiman http://www.i3solutions.com/quote.asp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 10 16:47:27 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:56 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <002d01beb348$5e7cb180$11f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Brandt Dainow >However, this could create problems for people who have already developed >schemas to Microsoft's spec - forcing Microsoft to support both schema >standards. Another problem which could occur after standardisation if >you're trying to develop W3C-compliant schemas on a Microsoft product using >an older MSXML object which supports only MS Schemas. We have two ways >around this - namespaces is the most obvious If I get this right, they are changing the namespace URI in order to use a different schema syntax. So they are not using namespaces as universal names, but as the names of a schema in a particular schema language, as I am saying. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mike at DataChannel.com Thu Jun 10 17:23:34 1999 From: mike at DataChannel.com (Mike Dierken) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: Byte on XML-RPC Message-ID: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B6023B6E99F@ZEUS> Good overview, but he forgot to mention the WebBroker W3C Note: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-webbroker/ Many people do. Mike D DataChannel -----Original Message----- From: Dave Winer [mailto:dave@userland.com] Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 6:53 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; XML-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE; frontier-users@userland.com; userland-internal@userland.com; community@lists.scriptmeridian.org Subject: Byte on XML-RPC Gotta read this one! http://byte.com/features/1999/06/0607XML_RPC.html Success! Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mike at DataChannel.com Thu Jun 10 17:32:37 1999 From: mike at DataChannel.com (Mike Dierken) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Challenge Message-ID: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B6023B6E9A5@ZEUS> This is conceptually a join operation. I've always felt that there should be a declarative syntax for doing this. The IE5 and DataChannel XSL processors have a method called 'context()' which is meant to help with this situation. Take a look at: http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/reference/xsl/ChangingContext_context.asp for documentation of the IE5 context() method. Mike DataChannel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mike at DataChannel.com Thu Jun 10 17:34:27 1999 From: mike at DataChannel.com (Mike Dierken) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XML Transport Mechanism Message-ID: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B6023B6E9A6@ZEUS> There is also some more background info in this W3C Note: http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-webbroker/ Mike DataChannel -----Original Message----- From: David Brownell [mailto:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 10:30 AM To: Carl Schei Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XML Transport Mechanism Carl Schei wrote: > > I gather that what you are proposing is that the Java program listen > directly for the HTTP requests? Could this piggyback onto a web server > somehow? Certainly. See the rpc/transport example in Sun's package, at http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/products/xml (it's now an updated release, TR2). That has both a client and a servlet component. Servlets plug into web servers; that could be Apache, or any other servet that talks servlets. The application can define whatever standard it chooses for how the data is exchanged. If XML is already in use it's easy to just exchange documents. If not, it may be desirable to use some predefined least-common-denominator DTD like "XML-RPC" does. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From asmith at drumbeat.com Thu Jun 10 18:25:52 1999 From: asmith at drumbeat.com (Smith, Adrian) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: General Architecture Message-ID: I am not sure if this is the place to ask but I am looking for a diagram or set of diagrams that show the architecture of the collaboration and actors involved in serving up a web page to a browser. If any knows of a set of the diagrams I would like to see them. Thanks! Adrian xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Thu Jun 10 20:34:08 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: xml/edi Message-ID: Just how close are 'they' to forming an XML standard that can be used in place of, or conjunction with EDI? and who are 'they'? the x12 group? my employer writes b2b eCommerce apps that are dropped into existing EDI and non-EDI infrastructures... it would be nice to offer low-cost XML alternatives... that are EDI/OBI compliant. thanks for your time, -mark ..Mark Cheek.. "I count him braver who overcomes his desires than him who conquers his enemies; for the hardest victory is over self." -- Aristotle _____________________________________ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Jun 10 21:12:18 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <027c01beb374$3c324be0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 09:10 PM 6/9/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: >>I have a right to use and develop systems using XSL. You are arguing against >>my freedom to develop systems using the standard of my choice. > >Rights? Are you kidding? In standards you have no rights, except maybe >the right to complain. You still have plenty of freedom to develop systems >- it just may not be the 'standard' of your choice. > >Like it or not, if Tim Berners-Lee decides he doesn't like XSL (seems >unlikely but possible to me), it won't become a W3C recommendation. >Period. XSL will probably just move someplace else, but the 'standard' of >your choice will have to come from another body. (And yes, I know the W3C >isn't technically a 'standards' body in the IS0 sense.) > >W3C process may suck, but it hardly means that you have rights. > James Clark gave me the right to use his implementation of XSL, IBM gave me the right to use its implementation of XSL, Microsoft gave me the right to use its implementation of XSL. (no intention to leave out other implementations, but this makes the point :-) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Thu Jun 10 21:21:49 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: Jonathan Borden wrote, > James Clark gave me the right to use his > implementation of XSL, IBM gave me the right to use > its implementation of XSL, Microsoft gave me the right > to use its implementation of XSL. (no intention to > leave out other implementations, but this makes the > point :-) Huh? In what way does criticism of XSL deprive you of those rights you've just listed? Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Jun 10 21:23:23 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <027c01beb374$3c324be0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906101925.PAA15715@hesketh.net> At 03:05 PM 6/10/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: > James Clark gave me the right to use his implementation of XSL, IBM gave >me the right to use its implementation of XSL, Microsoft gave me the right >to use its implementation of XSL. (no intention to leave out other >implementations, but this makes the point :-) They gave you licenses to use their software, sure. They didn't give you the right to use a _standard_, however. Subtle but important. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 10 22:58:31 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespaces and syntax of compound names Message-ID: <14176.9816.632368.748497@localhost.localdomain> I have just heard a good argument for using the "{URIpart}localpart" syntax for compound names rather than the "URIpart localpart" I have always preferred the second format because it is easier to split (most libraries have a built-in function for splitting around a single character), but someone pointed out that the first format has the advantage that you can tell simply by testing the first character whether or not you have a compound name. Of course, Java will still be happier with the second, since String operations in Java are painfully expensive. What does everyone else think? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From hoxford at dtai.com Thu Jun 10 23:48:59 1999 From: hoxford at dtai.com (Hank Oxford) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XML Schema errata (and digest question) Message-ID: <37603321.807FD94D@dtai.com> Anyone put together errata for the W3C XML Schema draft's Schema schema or schema DTD? (Is that confusing enough?) I'm trying to cobble together something that can work with it and have found one small discrepancy so far. The schema schema says: The DTD says: If I'm reading the Schema schema right, well, it's wrong. It wouldn't allow mixed bounds in the form of, say, a minInclusive and a maxExclusive. The DTD says you may or may not have either a minInclusive or minExclusive (but not both) and may or may not have either a maxInclusive or maxExclusive (but not both). I believe the DTD is correct. Am I missing something? Should the Schema schema be something like this: And speaking of tools for the Schema draft, anyone know of any? Any on the horizon? I know it's early and still in flux, but some of us need that functionality now... or yesterday would be even better. :) Also, anyone know what's going on with the xml-dev-digest? I prefer the digest to the individual mailings, but the digest seems to have stopped. -- Hank Oxford DTAI, Incorporated hoxford@dtai.com 3900 Harney St Suite 210 1-619-542-7243 San Diego, CA 92110 1-888-222-3824 x243 http://www.dtai.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Fri Jun 11 00:47:43 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: question for a friend Message-ID: <376046C6.646E1390@finetuning.com> Hello, A friend of mine asked me a question I didn't feel like I gave him a good enough answer for, so I bring it to you... say we have a part of a document below (probably a part of a very long document). Yes i KNOW this is misnested. this is the point. he was saying that this kind of context couldn't be represented using a well-formed structure: FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF where the two paragraphs in the middle are "realestate:newyork", but only if they are taken together. No matter how I represented the structure above in a well-formed manner, I couldn't quite pull off the "only when taken together" part. Any suggestions? thanks, lisa http://www.finetuning.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From daniela at cnet.com Fri Jun 11 01:05:01 1999 From: daniela at cnet.com (Daniel Austin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: question for a friend Message-ID: <77A952A6B467D211855D00805F9521F13A6A77@cnet10.cnet.com> Lisa, This sort of structure cannot be represented easily in XML, since it cannot be mapped to a simple heirarchichal tree structure. In practice, what usually happens is that a third element is used to contain the internal paragraphs and additional information beyond the DTD is required for complete validity testing/processing. But your friend is correct in the sense that there are (many) data structures that cannot be mapped to XML; XML really applies only to semi-structured data sets where relationships between elements are restricted to parent-child relationships - a heirarchical tree. Additional, more complex relationships among elements must be specified outside of XML. Regards, D- ********************************************************************* Daniel Austin, Director of Research and Development, CNET daniela@cnet.com 415-395-7800 x1438 "To change the old into the new, and the shapes of things to come..." > -----Original Message----- > From: Lisa Rein [mailto:lisarein@finetuning.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:14 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: question for a friend > > > Hello, > > A friend of mine asked me a question I didn't feel like I gave him a > good enough answer for, so I bring it to you... > > > say we have a part of a document below (probably a part of a very long > document). Yes i KNOW this is misnested. this is the point. he was > saying that this kind of context couldn't be represented using a > well-formed structure: > > > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > > > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF > > > where the two paragraphs in the middle are "realestate:newyork", but > only if they are taken together. > > > No matter how I represented the structure above in a > well-formed manner, > I couldn't quite pull off the "only when taken together" part. > > Any suggestions? > > thanks, > > lisa > > http://www.finetuning.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Fri Jun 11 01:18:55 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XML Schema errata (and digest question) Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255366@MDYNYCMSX1> Anyone put together errata for the W3C XML Schema draft's Schema >schema or schema DTD? (Is that confusing enough?) The www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org address described in the Note's "Status of this Document" part is the best place to send errata. Previously submitted comments are available at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Fri Jun 11 02:35:43 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701beb3a1$5f24daf0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Miles Sabin wrote: > > Jonathan Borden wrote, > > James Clark gave me the right to use his > > implementation of XSL, IBM gave me the right to use > > its implementation of XSL, Microsoft gave me the right > > to use its implementation of XSL. (no intention to > > leave out other implementations, but this makes the > > point :-) > > Huh? > > In what way does criticism of XSL deprive you of those > rights you've just listed? > I never said it did. The above paragraph was used to defend my prior statement that I have a right to use XSL if I choose. What I wish, is to use XSL as a standard, and further, to define a common platform for web native distributed computing (this specifically goes beyond a desire to browse documents). To be practical about this we need to things to occur: 1) standards to be defined (e.g. role of W3C,IETF,ISO etc.) 2) standards to be adopted. To suggest, as Leventhal does, that work on XSL be suspended until 'major' browser vendors have completed implementation of CSS2, is a suggestion that fits his personal agenda, and the agenda of a subset of individuals and corporations which are engaged in document browsing. I have nothing against CSS, to the contrary I use it every day, however it alone does not help me with distributed computing tasks that I use XSL for, even in its current pre-standard implementation. CSS is not in competition with XSL in regards to WNDC, to the contrary, a reasonable argument would be that DSSSL is already an ISO standard which can handle many of the tasks that XSL is being designed to handle. This argument unfortunately is lost in the current static regarding XSL vs. CSS, and though DSSSL does meet requirement (1) above, it has not met requirement (2) for whatever reasons. My agenda is to speak loudly and hopefully clearly about the need for browsers to support client side XSLT in order to enable browsers to be used for web native distributed computing systems. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca Fri Jun 11 04:09:04 1999 From: Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca (Arved Sandstrom) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: Mailing List for Perl XML Indexing Project Message-ID: Hi, all I've been remiss in not posting this. Some weeks back Sami Poikonen was kind enough to set up a mailing list for the Perl+C XML indexing project I proposed in various forums. The address of the ML is perl-xml-index@majordomo.jyu.fi Subscribe by sending a message subscribe perl-xml-index to majordomo@majordomo.jyu.fi There has already been some exploratory work done by myself and Wade Stebbings, and others have expressed interest, but I believe that this mailing list will make all the difference in getting this project moving. We have some interesting ideas, and welcome anyone with input or interest regarding the indexing of XML document collections. I will be posting a working description of what we're about on the list at the end of the weekend, and again every few weeks. Thanks for your interest and attention, Arved Sandstrom xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Fri Jun 11 09:28:01 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XML Schema errata (and digest question) Message-ID: <01BEB3EC.AD003BC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Hank Oxford wrote: > Anyone put together errata for the W3C XML Schema draft's Schema schema > or schema DTD? (Is that confusing enough?) I'm trying to cobble > together something that can work with it and have found one small > discrepancy so far. > > The schema schema says: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The DTD says: > (maxInclusive | maxExclusive)?)"> > > If I'm reading the Schema schema right, well, it's wrong. It wouldn't > allow mixed bounds in the form of, say, a minInclusive and a > maxExclusive. > > The DTD says you may or may not have either a minInclusive or > minExclusive (but not both) and may or may not have either a > maxInclusive or maxExclusive (but not both). I believe the DTD is > correct. [correct schema snipped] You are correct, as is your suggested syntax (except for the commas between attributes and that you have mislabeled a closing choice as a closing sequence). I also noted two other problems: i) In the schema definition of the attribute group "occurrence", the default for maxOccur is 1. This doesn't work, as it means there is no way for maxOccur to be infinity -- the DTD is correct here as well. ii) In the schema for data types (appendix A of part 2), maxOccur of "*" is used. This is illegal because "*" is not an integer. (It looks like the WG played around with different strategies on how to model infinity and didn't catch everything after settling on the current strategy.) -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dirkg at tectrade.be Fri Jun 11 10:06:25 1999 From: dirkg at tectrade.be (Dirk Germonpre) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: tools to generate DTD from a relational database schema Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990611100550.0094fc70@relay.tectrade.be> Hello, Does anyone know of tools to generate a DTD from a relational database schema? Thanks in advance. ---------------------------------- Dirk Germonpr? - dirkg@tectrade.be Tectrade NV Pieter de Conincklaan 33 B-8200 Brugge Belgium xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Fri Jun 11 10:16:01 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:57 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <000701beb3a1$5f24daf0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <000101beb3e2$afab1c00$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> Jonathan Borden wrote: > Miles Sabin wrote: > > In what way does criticism of XSL deprive you of those > > rights you've just listed? > > I never said it did. The above paragraph was used to defend my prior > statement that I have a right to use XSL if I choose. What I > wish, is to use > XSL as a standard, and further, to define a common platform for web XSL is not a standard, at least not yet. It might actually never become a standard. Until there is a standard you can not claim you are using one. > To suggest, as Leventhal does, that work on XSL be > suspended until 'major' > browser vendors have completed implementation of CSS2, is a Actually, suspension was more like my view. Perhaps you should read Michael's last mail again to see his view. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From didier at cln46ae.der.edf.fr Fri Jun 11 10:53:40 1999 From: didier at cln46ae.der.edf.fr (Didier BOLF) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <199906110853.KAA19246@cln46ms.der.edf.fr> > XSL is not a standard, at least not yet. It might actually never become a > standard. Until there is a standard you can not claim you are using one. I really hope that XSL is about to become a standard. We already use XSLT (WD 04/21/1999) in an EDI application at EDF. From my point of view, the last WD is mature and ready to be promoted as a recommendation. Thanks to James Clark to do such a *GREAT* work with XSLT and XT. Best regards. Didier Bolf. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM Fri Jun 11 10:57:58 1999 From: RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM (Raghavendra, Karthik (CTS)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: Data Islands and applets Message-ID: <15BC1866E5CFD111900E00A0C9A6F35E013E47DE@CTSINCSISXUC> Hi, I have an applet that loads a XML file and displays the contents as a table. Is it possible to use data islands instead ? I want to have the data island and the applet in the same html page and make the applet access the XML data in the data island. The reason for doing this is to give the user the option to save the data island for reuse elsewhere. This is similar to the way in which Office 2000 products save data in XML format. Thanks in advance. Karthik -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990611/867be994/attachment.htm From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri Jun 11 12:20:51 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: question for a friend Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEE7@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Lisa Rein: > say we have a part of a document below (probably a part of a very long > document). Yes i KNOW this is misnested. this is the point. he was > saying that this kind of context couldn't be represented using a > well-formed structure: [snip] I don't really understand the semantics of your example. But yes, there are situations where you want to impose multiple hierarchic structures over the same linear data. An obvious one is logical structure vs layout structure (e.g. sections and pages) another is logical structure vs change history and authorship. I'm only aware of two answers: 1. Represent one of the hierarchies using empty tags, e.g. . 2. Split the units of one of the heirarchies to achieve proper nesting: OTHELLO Most potent, grave, and reverend signiors, My very noble and approved good masters, That I have ta'en away this old man's daughter, It is most true; true, I have married her: The very head and front of my offending Hath this extent, no more. Rude am I in my speech, And little bless'd with the soft phrase of peace: For since these arms of mine had seven years' pith, Till now some nine moons wasted, they have used Their dearest action in the tented field, And little of this great world can I speak, More than pertains to feats of broil and battle, And therefore little shall I grace my cause In speaking for myself. Yet, by your gracious patience, I will a round unvarnish'd tale deliver Of my whole course of love; what drugs, what charms, What conjuration and what mighty magic, For such proceeding I am charged withal, I won his daughter. BRABANTIO A maiden never bold; Of spirit so still and quiet, that her motion Blush'd at herself; and she, in spite of nature, Of years, of country, credit, every thing, To fall in love with what she fear'd to look on! It is a judgment maim'd and most imperfect That will confess perfection so could err Against all rules of nature, and must be driven To find out practises of cunning hell, Why this should be. I therefore vouch again That with some mixtures powerful o'er the blood, Or with some dram conjured to this effect, He wrought upon her. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri Jun 11 13:02:19 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespaces and syntax of compound names Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > Of course, Java will still be happier with the second, > since String operations in Java are painfully > expensive. What does everyone else think? I don't think '{URIpart}localpart' will be significantly more expensive to split in Java than 'URIpart localpart' on some reasonable assumptions about what's typical (nested braces in URIpart relatively rare; localpart short relative to URIpart etc.) Maybe we need to see the splitting code for the two cases? Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Fri Jun 11 13:32:01 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: question for a friend In-Reply-To: <376046C6.646E1390@finetuning.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 1999, Lisa Rein wrote: > document). Yes i KNOW this is misnested. this is the point. he was > saying that this kind of context couldn't be represented using a [...] > No matter how I represented the structure above in a well-formed manner, > I couldn't quite pull off the "only when taken together" part. > > Any suggestions? The question is not entirely clear to me, but if you're looking for markup strategies used to represent non-hierarchical structures (or structures with multiple overlapping hierarchies predicated upon multiple analytical perspectives) you may want to look at hints in: http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/topics.html#hierarchy "SGML/XML and (Non-) Hierarchy" The TEI teams in particular have dealt with this problem, since the encoding of text for literary and linguistic features often forces one to reckon with four or five "concurrent" hierarchies -- and SGML/XML (sans CONCUR) forces you to choose. The dogma of SGML changed somewhere along the line from a simplistic OHCO model ("ordered hierarchy of content objects") to something like "non-hierarchy / multiple-hierarchy is the rule rather than the exception". Cheers, Robin Cover xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Fri Jun 11 14:28:27 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Heikki Toivonen wrote: >Jonathan Borden wrote: > >> To suggest, as Leventhal does, that work on XSL be >> suspended until 'major' >> browser vendors have completed implementation of CSS2, is a > >Actually, suspension was more like my view. Perhaps you should read >Michael's last mail again to see his view. > The more I read, the more pathetic the argument against XSL sounds. Let me quote from Leventhal's last e-mail: >But it was not actually when I read Ken's article that the "war" began, >it was >a bit earlier when I read Tim Bray and Jon Bosak's article in Scientific >American where it was stated that XSL was "the" stylesheet language for >XML. >In demographic terms Scientific American readers are one of the most >influential publication-defined communities on the planet. It was >then that I said "This is war, it has to be a war." Please, have some respect. The Scientific American article is an accomplishment. They wrote it, Leventhal didn't. This just sounds like sour grapes. and further: >And on these points alone it is clear that the correct action for W3C members > remains, clearly, to vote against an XSL Recommendation. Noted and filed. Whine all you want about XSL and its so called failings. I for one am using XSL even in its early implementation to do real work. The people who use my application will need a browser which supports client side XSL+DOM+ECMAScript. This can be accomplished via Java,COM,XPCOM etc. I suspect that IE5 and Mozilla will be able to handle this. If your company's browser isn't up to the task, then so be it, but in this context, this whining about XSL and pleading for people to stop using it (and for the W3C not to support it ) sounds alot like a vendor with an agenda. If my comments are inflamatory I apologize. They are in reaction to a done discussion that I have been hoping will just go away. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 15:23:35 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> At 08:13 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: >Please, have some respect. The Scientific American article is an >accomplishment. They wrote it, Leventhal didn't. This just sounds like sour >grapes. Actually, I brought this up when the article first appeared. Tim Bray acknowledged that this was a significant omission. (http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Apr-1999/0347.html) I think the sour grapes come from having to put up with a group that launched off in its own direction without much regard for prior work _on the Web_ and that keeps insisting that it is _the_ solution for XML formatting. Listening to the opening XTech keynote in March was a particularly painful moment in this regard, but it's a theme that goes on and on. This "CSS and XSL don't compete" stuff is a load of condescending garbage that should have been disposed of long ago. > Noted and filed. Whine all you want about XSL and its so called >failings. I for one am using XSL even in its early implementation to do real >work. The people who use my application will need a browser which supports >client side XSL+DOM+ECMAScript. This can be accomplished via Java,COM,XPCOM >etc. I suspect that IE5 and Mozilla will be able to handle this. If your >company's browser isn't up to the task, then so be it, but in this context, >this whining about XSL and pleading for people to stop using it (and for the >W3C not to support it ) sounds alot like a vendor with an agenda. I think you've come to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is whining. From the other side, I've come to the conclusion that you're whining. I write books. The existence of standards makes those books worth writing, but it makes very little difference (financially, at least) whether those books cover CSS or XSL. I have no vendor agenda. Still, I think Michael Leventhal is making some very important points. I would genuinely like the W3C to sit down and ask if XSL is _good for the Web_. Not good for the XSL community, not good for the DSSSL community, but whether it is good for _the Web_. That is, after all, their job. If, after some serious, preferably public, pondering, they conclude that it's good for the Web, then fine. XSL can become a recommendation. If they decide that it's not good for the Web, they'd better drop it. XSL can move on to a different organization if necessary - I don't see it dying any time soon. > If my comments are inflamatory I apologize. They are in reaction to a >done discussion that I have been hoping will just go away. If you keep inflaming it, it'll keep going, not go away. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Fri Jun 11 16:19:28 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: Namespaces are dead. Message-ID: <002d01beb40d$88c1cf50$29f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com >To put it plainly, the basic problem is putting document consumer >information in the document. Doing so results in needing to modify every >document every time a new consumer is created. I have written to the W3C a suggestion on this topic. It is in an article "How to Promote Organic Plurality on the WWW" at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/monolith.html The concrete suggestions are these: 1) To prevent "data kidnap", every new technology or application class introduced onto the WWW must be preceded by a mechanism, as an intermediate layer, to allow alternatives to that technology 2) To prevent "workflow kidnap", that mechanism should have a phase attribute. 3) To prevent "data lockout", names should be fixed for a schema: vocabularies that require a schema with to check names based on regular expressions should be deprecated. I hope anyone interested in building an open WWW that provides a level-playing field for innovators can support it. Rick Jelliffe P.S. "Organic Plurarity" sounds like something from Barbarella I know, but it is the best I could come up with. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri Jun 11 16:16:43 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: question for a friend In-Reply-To: Kay Michael's message of Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:09:55 +0100 Message-ID: <199906111418.PAA11191@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > But yes, there are > situations where you want to impose multiple hierarchic structures over the > same linear data. An obvious one is logical structure vs layout structure > (e.g. sections and pages) another is logical structure vs change history and > authorship. > I'm only aware of two answers: Another solution, for some purposes, is to have two documents, one for each hierarchy. Of course, you don't want to to duplicate the data itself. We avoid this by using "standoff markup", which we implement with XLinks (we have our own software to perform the transclusion process). The context we use this in is markup of linguistic corpora, and we often have an ID on every word. For the Shakespeare example it might be something like this: fragment of base file (othello.xml): charged withal , I won his daughter . A maiden never bold ; Of spirit fragment of speech file: Message-ID: <005001beb41b$db64b700$f5f6b5cf@evans.dnai.com> (NOTE: this is not an attack on anybody!!! ) One way of looking at is that if one waited for 'standards' bodies and major vendors to agree on things, java would still be a cup of coffee, and the WEB would be what a spider captures prey on. (up to you to decide if this would be good or bad :-) I suspect that I use XSL for the same reasons that the early adopters of Java had. I know it is a bit rough, I know it is not really a standard, but it does what I want it to do, in a way that I have decided makes my job easier. It's support from MS and IBM comforts me. I believe in its future. I do not believe that it is a 'provable' good thing. I would like to see it uniformly in browsers, but have architected my product so that it does not have to be. I have never looked to standard's bodies to make my choices. I suspect that I am not alone... erik -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Simon St.Laurent Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 6:29 AM To: 'XML Developers' List' Subject: Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach At 08:13 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: >Please, have some respect. The Scientific American article is an >accomplishment. They wrote it, Leventhal didn't. This just sounds like sour >grapes. Actually, I brought this up when the article first appeared. Tim Bray acknowledged that this was a significant omission. (http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Apr-1999/0347.html) I think the sour grapes come from having to put up with a group that launched off in its own direction without much regard for prior work _on the Web_ and that keeps insisting that it is _the_ solution for XML formatting. Listening to the opening XTech keynote in March was a particularly painful moment in this regard, but it's a theme that goes on and on. This "CSS and XSL don't compete" stuff is a load of condescending garbage that should have been disposed of long ago. > Noted and filed. Whine all you want about XSL and its so called >failings. I for one am using XSL even in its early implementation to do real >work. The people who use my application will need a browser which supports >client side XSL+DOM+ECMAScript. This can be accomplished via Java,COM,XPCOM >etc. I suspect that IE5 and Mozilla will be able to handle this. If your >company's browser isn't up to the task, then so be it, but in this context, >this whining about XSL and pleading for people to stop using it (and for the >W3C not to support it ) sounds alot like a vendor with an agenda. I think you've come to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is whining. From the other side, I've come to the conclusion that you're whining. I write books. The existence of standards makes those books worth writing, but it makes very little difference (financially, at least) whether those books cover CSS or XSL. I have no vendor agenda. Still, I think Michael Leventhal is making some very important points. I would genuinely like the W3C to sit down and ask if XSL is _good for the Web_. Not good for the XSL community, not good for the DSSSL community, but whether it is good for _the Web_. That is, after all, their job. If, after some serious, preferably public, pondering, they conclude that it's good for the Web, then fine. XSL can become a recommendation. If they decide that it's not good for the Web, they'd better drop it. XSL can move on to a different organization if necessary - I don't see it dying any time soon. > If my comments are inflamatory I apologize. They are in reaction to a >done discussion that I have been hoping will just go away. If you keep inflaming it, it'll keep going, not go away. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 17:11:24 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: References: <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> At 10:48 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 09:29 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>I would genuinely like the W3C to sit down and ask if XSL is _good for the >>Web_. Not good for the XSL community, not good for the DSSSL community, >>but whether it is good for _the Web_. > >That's the wrong question. It's "is XSL good for *XML*". XML right now >isn't the Web. The Web is moving in that direction, and will certainly be >embracing XML, but there's no real "there" there yet. I'm afraid it is the right question, unless the World Wide Web Consortium has changed their mission statement substantially. The current process document (http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/) makes it rather clear the W3C is about the Web. "W3C's mission is to lead the evolution of the Web -- the universe of information accessible through networked computers. " That certainly doesn't limit it to the 'public Web', but it does say Web loud and clear. In any case, it's all going to come back to one lucky individual - Tim Berners-Lee - and there isn't much the rest of us can do about it except hope that he listens. >There is certainly overlap between CSS and XSL, and I don't think anyone's >attempted to say there's not -- but they're not mirror duplicates either, >and both have their place in the large world of internet-based documents. Both may have their place. Still, it seems like it would have been a good idea for the W3C to sit both groups down at the same table and make them work together, rather than pretending they don't compete. (Common vocabulary would have been a good start. XSL FOs are finally moving toward CSS, after wasting a lot of time elsewhere.) Making them work together would have spared us a lot of the conflict we've had and possibly let us get on with more real work. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Fri Jun 11 17:22:30 1999 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespaces and syntax of compound names References: <14176.9816.632368.748497@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37612A46.62E8F732@mecomnet.de> i would actually prefer to have the option requesting that names be parsed to interned symbols. symbols without uri are simply in a package either without a name, or with a constant default name. this mechanism also offers numerous advantages. for example, giving the package more than one name, or constructing and using packages programmatically while delaying binding to the uri. a consequence of which is that it would be trivial to shifting the uri systematically for compiled applications... David Megginson wrote: > > I have just heard a good argument for using the > > "{URIpart}localpart" > > syntax for compound names rather than the > > "URIpart localpart" > > ... What does everyone else think? > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Fri Jun 11 17:50:30 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> References: <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: At 11:14 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >In any case, it's all going to come back to one lucky individual - Tim >Berners-Lee - and there isn't much the rest of us can do about it except >hope that he listens. Simon, you usually don't resort to hyperbole :) TBL may be the director of the Consortium, but the membership votes on what will or won't be made into a Recommendation. If the membership gives it a resounding "YES!" the director, Tim or anyone else who may hold that spot later, isn't just going to play despot and say "NO!". 300+ individuals (representing their member organizations) make the choice -- the director just puts the final stamp on it, or when there is controversy and dissent within the membership, makes a determination of appropriate action, which the members also voice. The vote isn't just "yes" or "no" -- it's "yes, as is" "yes, with these minor corrections" "no - go back for more work on this area" and "we think this is bad and we shouldn't be working on it any more". W3C groups do indeed "sit down" together through several coordination groups. CSS and XSL groups aren't operating in a vacuum. Now all this reminds me to go vote on a pending issue right now... Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online - http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Coming this summer! --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 18:01:09 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:58 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) In-Reply-To: <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> At 11:51 AM 6/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >At 11:14 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >>In any case, it's all going to come back to one lucky individual - Tim >>Berners-Lee - and there isn't much the rest of us can do about it except >>hope that he listens. > >Simon, you usually don't resort to hyperbole :) If only it weren't such fun... >TBL may be the director of the Consortium, but the membership votes on what >will or won't be made into a Recommendation. If the membership gives it a >resounding "YES!" the director, Tim or anyone else who may hold that spot >later, isn't just going to play despot and say "NO!". Yes, but in the end, it's up to Tim. Legal reasons, I understand, as he's pretty well judgment-proof. I also understand that he takes the job pretty seriously. Given the fairly dim view I have of W3C membership rules and process, Tim's idealism (at least in public) is one of the few bright spots that gives me reason to pay attention to a vendor consortium. I disagree with plenty of W3C decisions, and it may well all be Tim's fault, but it's good to know that somebody out there - with power - actually seems to care about the semantic web for reasons that have to do with more than stock valuations. Otherwise, I'll stick to the IETF and informal (ala SAX2) efforts, thanks. They ain't perfect either, but they're a lot more open about participation. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Fri Jun 11 18:05:42 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) In-Reply-To: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> References: <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: At 12:06 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: > is one of the few bright spots that gives me >reason to pay attention to a vendor consortium. Making me feel like an evangelist this morning ;) There are many many W3C members besides the major "web" vendors, HWG is but one of them. There's a growing balance in the group, which has been fun to see happen (I've been involved directly at the AC level since January 98) Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online - http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Coming this summer! --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 18:05:53 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> At 11:51 AM 6/11/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >W3C groups do indeed "sit down" together through several coordination >groups. CSS and XSL groups aren't operating in a vacuum. All I can say on this one is that it sure hasn't felt like it from the outside. At times, the public comments of W3C staff (plus former W3C folk) and WG members on both sides have felt pretty much like open warfare, and coordination on vocabulary feels like an afterthought, nothing more. If this is coordination, I'd hate to see chaos... Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 18:12:08 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) In-Reply-To: <199906111608.MAA29932@hesketh.net> References: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111614.MAA30348@hesketh.net> At 12:07 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Ann Navarro wrote: >At 12:06 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >> is one of the few bright spots that gives me >>reason to pay attention to a vendor consortium. > >Making me feel like an evangelist this morning ;) > >There are many many W3C members besides the major "web" vendors, HWG is but >one of them. There's a growing balance in the group, which has been fun to >see happen (I've been involved directly at the AC level since January 98) I'm glad to hear that there are more 'customers' joining. I remain disgusted with the pay for play mode of operation, however. Inviting technical experts is good, but the W3C is still a closed operation to most of the world. No, I'm not asking to be made an expert, and no, I'm not interested in joining a W3C member organization to get access. I'm hoping that someday the W3C will find an endowment or some other means of supporting itself so it can drop this $5000+/year charade that keeps the smoke-filled rooms closed to small firms and individuals. I'll remain an outsider until the W3C gets rid of the rules that separate insiders and outsiders. In the meantime, I'll have to put up with the organization and hope that it takes its mission as seriously as its membership. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 11 18:59:33 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? (was RE: question for a friend) In-Reply-To: <199906111418.PAA11191@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> References: <199906111418.PAA11191@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <14177.16104.75947.888156@localhost.localdomain> Richard Tobin writes: > Another solution, for some purposes, is to have two documents, one for > each hierarchy. Of course, you don't want to to duplicate the data > itself. We avoid this by using "standoff markup", which we implement > with XLinks (we have our own software to perform the transclusion > process). Way back in the 1980's, about 40 Internet years ago, the computer part Oxford English Dictionary project at the University of Waterloo (Ontario) published a short monograph on this issue. I no longer have my copy, and remember neither the title nor author, but the premise was that inline markup like SGML should be considered harmful, and that out-of-line markup was much more flexible (since you can apply more than one hierarchy to the same content). Tim Bray knows the OED people much better than I do, and he might be able to provide more useful details and/or correct my possibly-faulty recollection of the thesis. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 11 19:03:48 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> References: <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <14177.16743.489116.315637@localhost.localdomain> Simon St.Laurent writes: > In any case, it's all going to come back to one lucky individual - > Tim Berners-Lee - and there isn't much the rest of us can do about > it except hope that he listens. In using the word "lucky", is Simon implying that he'd like to trade places with Tim B-L, and have his phone number on Microsoft's, IBM's, Sun's, Oracle's, Netscape's, and everyone else's speed dialers? Heavy lies the head... All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri Jun 11 19:09:03 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > Tim Bray knows the OED people much better than I do, > and he might be able to provide more useful details > and/or correct my possibly-faulty recollection of the > thesis. I would be very interested in any references to this (or related) work that might me lying around. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcdowella at mcdowella.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 11 19:16:25 1999 From: mcdowella at mcdowella.demon.co.uk (A. G. McDowell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have made a quick search for RFCs promoting the well-known internet dictum "Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send" So far I have found RFC 1122 (perhaps the widest quoted), RFC 791, and RFC 1896. This dictum sounds sensible and has been tested in practice. I don't see how a browser could justify going any further than raising some sort of warning indicator when faced with something it could interpret unambiguously, but dislikes. -- A. G. McDowell xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 19:31:50 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <14177.16743.489116.315637@localhost.localdomain> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906111734.NAA01570@hesketh.net> At 01:05 PM 6/11/99 -0400, you wrote: >Simon St.Laurent writes: > > > In any case, it's all going to come back to one lucky individual - > > Tim Berners-Lee - and there isn't much the rest of us can do about > > it except hope that he listens. > >In using the word "lucky", is Simon implying that he'd like to trade >places with Tim B-L, and have his phone number on Microsoft's, IBM's, >Sun's, Oracle's, Netscape's, and everyone else's speed dialers? Heavy >lies the head... No, actually I was being sarcastic on lucky. I just can't stand to use smileys, so the deadpan creeps by unnoticed... I don't envy him one bit - it's a hell of a responsibility, and seems to be pretty thankless. Maybe if/when we have XML email, I can rewrite that as "one lucky individual". Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri Jun 11 19:36:53 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? (was RE: question for a friend) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990611103736.0221c6b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:01 PM 6/11/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Way back in the 1980's, about 40 Internet years ago, the computer part >Oxford English Dictionary project at the University of Waterloo >(Ontario) published a short monograph on this issue. I no longer have >my copy, and remember neither the title nor author, but the premise >was that inline markup like SGML should be considered harmful, and >that out-of-line markup was much more flexible (since you can apply >more than one hierarchy to the same content). Not sure I recall the paper, but I recall the work. You save a lot of space, but juggling N data files + M markup indices in parallel is just immensely more complex than chugging through tags, so you'd better be sure the benefits are high. Anyhow, stand-off markup as a concept has a long & distinguished intellectual history - it was at the core of Ted Nelson's Xanadu thinking, and sometime in the last 2 or 3 years there was a real good presentation on it at one of the Web conferences... Daniel Rivers-Moore if memory serves. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 11 19:40:19 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XHTML DTDs failing in IE5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14177.18806.787173.252240@localhost.localdomain> A. G. McDowell writes: > I have made a quick search for RFCs promoting the well-known > internet dictum > > "Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you send" > > So far I have found RFC 1122 (perhaps the widest quoted), RFC 791, > and RFC 1896. This dictum sounds sensible and has been tested in > practice. I don't see how a browser could justify going any further > than raising some sort of warning indicator when faced with > something it could interpret unambiguously, but dislikes. It really depends on how serious the consequences of misinterpretation might be. Imagine, for example, that the browser tried to supply a missing tag and incorrectly rendered a chemical from the list of cleaning agents that *shouldn't* be used to the list of cleaning agents that *should* be used. Now, imagine that an aircraft maintenance mechanic then used that cleaning agent on the insulation around the wiring that passes through a jet's fuel tank. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Fri Jun 11 20:01:28 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? (was RE: question for a friend) In-Reply-To: <14177.16104.75947.888156@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, David Megginson wrote: > Way back in the 1980's, about 40 Internet years ago, the computer part > Oxford English Dictionary project at the University of Waterloo > (Ontario) published a short monograph on this issue. I no longer have > my copy, and remember neither the title nor author, but the premise > was that inline markup like SGML should be considered harmful, and > that out-of-line markup was much more flexible (since you can apply > more than one hierarchy to the same content). Not from "Way back in the 1980s," but perhaps what you were thinking of was Raymond's TR (an early version of the monograph I reviewed was called "Markup Considered Harmful?".) --------------------- http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/bib-or.html#raymond356 **See the HTML source for links: Raymond, Darrell R.; Tompa, Frank Wm.; Wood, Derick. Markup Reconsidered. Department of Computer Science, Technical Report No. 356. The University of Western Ontario, 1993. 20 pages, 32 references. ISBN: 0-7714-1504-4. Abstract: We describe some of the implications of markup for document management systems. Markup's properties are inherited from text, since it is embedded in text. These properties are most advantageous when document structure is reducible to substrings of characters, and when the update characteristics of the structure are similar to the update characteristics of the text. We describe situations in which these characteristics are disadvantageous. Markup is not a data model, but one of several possible techniques for representing structure. For this reason it should not be the foundation of document management systems. Also available under the title [Technical Report] OED-93-01, UW Centre for the New Oxford English Dictionary, University of Waterloo (April 1993). A presentation under the same title was given at the First International Workshop on Principles of Document Processing, Washington, D.C. (October 21-23, 1992). An earlier version (unpublished") was written as "Markup Considered Harmful" and a related work was entitled "Reading Between the Tags: An Appraisal of Descriptive Markup" ["Markup Considered Harmful"?]. The UWO version of the paper is available via FTP to UWO; ftp://ftp.csd.uwo.ca/pub/csd-technical-reports/356/. The report is also available in PostScript format from UWaterloo, or here. - Robin Cover xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 11 20:10:08 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? In-Reply-To: References: <14177.16104.75947.888156@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14177.20621.708944.301446@localhost.localdomain> Robin Cover writes: > On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, David Megginson wrote: > > > Way back in the 1980's, about 40 Internet years ago, the computer part > > Oxford English Dictionary project at the University of Waterloo > > (Ontario) published a short monograph on this issue. I no longer have > > my copy, and remember neither the title nor author, but the premise > > was that inline markup like SGML should be considered harmful, and > > that out-of-line markup was much more flexible (since you can apply > > more than one hierarchy to the same content). > > Not from "Way back in the 1980s," but perhaps what you were > thinking of was Raymond's TR (an early version of the > monograph I reviewed was called "Markup Considered Harmful?".) Thanks, Robin, yes, that's it. It cannot really be 1993, though, because I'm certain that I read it while I was still a graduate student in Toronto, and I had left Toronto for a teaching appointment in Ottawa in summer 1992. Memory fades with age, I guess. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Fri Jun 11 20:14:26 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <03ae01beb435$263fbbd0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >I think you've come to the conclusion that anyone who disagrees with you is >whining. Not at all. Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong, and this is a longstanding fact :-)) The whining comment is directed not at those who disagree with my position, rather at browser vendors who complain that the attention given to XSL takes away from the ability or desire to use CSS. My position is that browsers should implement *both*. The argument against XSL is starting to sound like "I already have too much work to do..." > >I write books. The existence of standards makes those books worth writing, >but it makes very little difference (financially, at least) whether those >books cover CSS or XSL. I have no vendor agenda. Still, I think Michael >Leventhal is making some very important points. And I respect this position. My fear is that a few inflamatory comments in a newsgroup and on xml.com will generate an impression that there is widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. The WWW is a large place and I think there is more than enough room for CSS, XSL and DSSSL. If the browser vendors implement both CSS and XSL, then the WWW has choice about what to use. Let me clarify this position. I am concerned almost entirely with XSLT not XSL-FO. The XSL-FO vs. CSS argument is an entirely reasonable one ... and one which my mind is not yet made up on. XSLT is an entirely different issue. The "war" however has been declared on XSLT. > >I would genuinely like the W3C to sit down and ask if XSL is _good for the >Web_. Not good for the XSL community, not good for the DSSSL community, >but whether it is good for _the Web_. That is, after all, their job What is the Web aside from what the W3C says it is? Is the idea of a web native distributed computing platform _good_ for the "web"? If so, ought this include ECMAScript? Java? XSLT? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Fri Jun 11 20:28:14 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:59 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F25537A@MDYNYCMSX1> For those who are interested in learning more, Ted Nelson's essay "Embedded Markup Considered Harmful" is included in the O'Reilly/W3C 1997 book "XML Principles, Tools and Techniques." Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 11 20:48:54 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <03ae01beb435$263fbbd0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> At 01:56 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: > Not at all. Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong, and this >is a longstanding fact :-)) The whining comment is directed not at those who >disagree with my position, rather at browser vendors who complain that the >attention given to XSL takes away from the ability or desire to use CSS. My >position is that browsers should implement *both*. The argument against XSL >is starting to sound like "I already have too much work to do..." Remember, not everyone has Microsoft's resources, and implementing a spec you flat out disagree with isn't a pleasant task. >My fear is that a few inflamatory comments >in a newsgroup and on xml.com will generate an impression that there is >widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. The WWW is a large place and >I think there is more than enough room for CSS, XSL and DSSSL. If the >browser vendors implement both CSS and XSL, then the WWW has choice about >what to use. I'm afraid that there _is_ widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. The XSL-List discussions and the XML.com discussions have made that clear. It's very hard to say negative things on XSL-list about the XSL project, unless you enjoy getting beaten up. I'm impressed that we detractors have held out as well as we have, and for so long. I may just be a lightning rod for people who don't like XSL, but I've had at least 10 Java developers say they thought XSLT was a horrible mess, along with about 15 Web developers. The 'FOs Considered Harmful' discussions raised real problems, that most XSL enthusiasts seemed inclined to ignore rather than solve, and those arguments go to the heart of what the 'Web' is about. > Let me clarify this position. I am concerned almost entirely with XSLT >not XSL-FO. The XSL-FO vs. CSS argument is an entirely reasonable one ... >and one which my mind is not yet made up on. XSLT is an entirely different >issue. The "war" however has been declared on XSLT. The 'war' has been declared on both fronts, though it sounds like the FO folks are at least trying to use CSS vocabulary at this point. (See recent postings on XSL-List.) > What is the Web aside from what the W3C says it is? Is the idea of a web >native distributed computing platform _good_ for the "web"? If so, ought >this include ECMAScript? Java? XSLT? If Netscape hadn't seen the W3C as Microsoft-friendly hostile territory, it might be W3Cscript rather than ECMAScript, or so I've read a few times. I doubt that Java will get anywhere near the W3C. XSLT may or may not be the business of the W3C - the membership is going to have to decide that. The best I can say for XSL is that the XSL community got off on the wrong foot by describing themselves as DSSSL-Lite and ignoring/denigrating CSS rather than focusing on shared vocabularies. Transformation to XML+CSS (even a rather modified and extended CSS) rather than transformation to FOs of whatever vocabulary would have sidestepped 90% of these issues. Instead, they forged ahead on their own, making enemies rather than allies. It's unfortunate, but that's where it's at, from my perspective. XSL could have looked very different had cooperation between XSL and CSS begun earlier, but the core functionality you keep demanding would probably have worked about the same. Disclaimer: I have no access to W3C proceedings - this is purely an outsider's perspective on what may have/could have happened. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Fri Jun 11 20:55:01 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? In-Reply-To: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F25537A@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Jun 1999, DuCharme, Robert wrote: > For those who are interested in learning more, Ted Nelson's essay > "Embedded Markup Considered Harmful" is included in the O'Reilly/W3C > 1997 book "XML Principles, Tools and Techniques." For those not familiar with the utter brilliance of Ted Nelson (the world should have a few more like him!) see for example "Ted Nelson's Computer Paradigm, Expressed as One-Liners" http://www.sfc.keio.ac.jp/~ted/TN/WRITINGS/TCOMPARADIGM/tedCompOneLiners.html Among which we find: Trying to fix HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs onto hamburger. There's got to be something better -- but XML is the same thing and worse. EMBEDDED MARKUP IS A CANCER. (see the "HTML" section) *apologies for failing to use transquotation strings (TQstrings) as required by the Transcopyright -rcc xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Fri Jun 11 22:40:19 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Function call in XSL using XT Message-ID: <19990611203541.18487.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Hi All, I'm new to XSL. How do I call the function in the XSL? My XSL file looks like this. function currentDate() { return Date().toString() }

When multiple alternative implementations are provided, it is up to the XSLT processor to determine which to use.

 When I compile this using XT I'm getting the following error file:/C:/Mallik/XSLSamples/booklist.xsl:9: undefined prefix Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri Jun 11 23:10:19 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Two more SAX2 (0601) Parsers Message-ID: <37617BC0.999A02B7@pacbell.net> Have a look at http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ You can download adapters that put SAX2 interfaces onto Sun's "Project X" parsers (current release: TR2) and the Swing HTML parser. This release can be used with only the addition of the TR2 release; it includes classes and javadoc, as well as the full sources (not like they're that huge, though). SAX2 "Feature" list: true, false validation true external-{general,parameter}-entities true use-locator false namespaces, normalize-text The XML parser supports both the "DeclHandler" and "LexicalHandler" from the SAX2 draft. The only known caveats there: you won't see paramter entities exposed, or expansions of general entities from attribute values. The license is a modified QPL (Open Source). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri Jun 11 23:37:55 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3761821C.4446F61B@pacbell.net> > http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ I thought I'd pass on some comments from having implemented to this API. (Does anyone have "user" comments yet?) Issues with what's now in the draft API: - I think the "validation" property should be immutable during parses; nonvalidating parses will generally discard data that a validating parse requires. - Why shouldn't declaration and lexical handlers be set "at any time" during a parse, like the SAX1 handlers? - When I implemented reporting of entity expansion for Sun last fall, I ran into a problem case that hasn't been addressed in the SAX2 draft. Namely, entities in attributes ... consider will generally get reported as startEntity ("entity"); endEntity ("entity"); startElement ("element", {"attr", value-of-entity, ...} ...); endElement ("element"); which doesn't really make sense. Sun's parser deals with this issue by not reporting such entity expansions. It's not clear to me how SAX2 will deal with the issue. - There's a similar issue with expanding parameter entities: And so on with conditional sections and other declarations; Sun's parser deals with that issue by not reporting parameter entity expansions through those reporting callbacks. Issues with what's NOT in the draft API, and where the lack is IMHO a notable API completeness issue for a "core" in SAX2: - Information re NOTATION attributes is discarded. In the example above, the attributeDecl() callback discards the list of which notations are permitted. Suggested fix: update the API. Sun's API doesn't discard this info, others are also possible. - The internal DTD subset isn't available. This means one can't reproduce the declaration; some applications have convinnced me that they absolutely require that capability. Suggested fix: as above, update the API (look at Sun's for one solution known to work). - The SAX1 handlers aren't "gettable" in the way the SAX2 ones are. Suggested fix: just define handler IDs for them. I thought I'd pass these along, since I've not seen much other feedback that relates to SAX2 implementation issues. - Dave p.s. http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ for the adapter I did to Sun's parsers. With those and AElfred, I think folk have a pretty good basis to experiment with validating and nonvalidating XML parsers (and an HTML parser!) to get some user experience with these APIs. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri Jun 11 23:50:13 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespaces and syntax of compound names References: <14176.9816.632368.748497@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376184FA.B662EDAC@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > I have just heard a good argument for using the > > "{URIpart}localpart" > > syntax for compound names rather than the > > "URIpart localpart" > > I have always preferred the second format because it is easier to > split (most libraries have a built-in function for splitting around a > single character), but someone pointed out that the first format has > the advantage that you can tell simply by testing the first character > whether or not you have a compound name. I guess I'm still not at all sold on the notion of turning legal XML names into illegal ones that embed namespace URIs. To each his/her own, I guess. > Of course, Java will still be happier with the second, since String > operations in Java are painfully expensive. What does everyone else > think? The cost of answering the "what is the namespace for this element?" and "what is the unscoped/unprefixed name of this element" questions will be about the same in both cases. The cost of comparing the long strings (URI + local name) for equality will also not differ much, but of course the parser could intern them so that the comparison is a constant time "==" operation. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Sat Jun 12 02:30:30 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <000a01beb469$cde7aa30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > > Remember, not everyone has Microsoft's resources, and implementing a spec > you flat out disagree with isn't a pleasant task. Yes but there are several source code available XSL implementations which could be reused. > > I'm afraid that there _is_ widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. > The XSL-List discussions and the XML.com discussions have made that clear. > It's very hard to say negative things on XSL-list about the XSL project, > unless you enjoy getting beaten up. I'm impressed that we detractors have > held out as well as we have, and for so long. > > I may just be a lightning rod for people who don't like XSL, but I've had > at least 10 Java developers say they thought XSLT was a horrible mess, > along with about 15 Web developers. Mess? why? Aside from the fact that declarative 'programming' can be a paradigm shift for those used to procedural programming. But that old argument aside, isn't there room for both styles? We have ECMAScript, Java, Python, PERL etc as common languages. Why not add XSLT? Diversity in languages is a Good Thing. I have used most major computer languages over the past 2 decades and support XSLT as a unique and useful addition to this family. > >The "war" however has been declared on XSLT. > > The 'war' has been declared on both fronts, though it sounds like the FO > folks are at least trying to use CSS vocabulary at this point. > (See recent > postings on XSL-List.) > And the XSLT folks? What would you have them do? Do you believe: 1) transformations are not important 2) procedural languages (e.g. ECMAScript+DOM) can handle transformations just fine. 3) DSSSL can be modified to better handle transformations 4) XSLT is just not a good way to transform (and if so please suggest another) What is your position here? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Sat Jun 12 02:48:55 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Two more SAX2 (0601) Parsers In-Reply-To: <37617BC0.999A02B7@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000001beb46d$b2ad7660$fd67fea9@w21tp> > Have a look at > > http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ > Looks pretty good. I think I'll steal some of your SAX2 support code to upgrade my own non-Schwinging SAXy HTML parser. At this point, I am past my first coding frenzy and getting ready to send out a HTML parser droid out to the sea of HTML world to see what percentage of the Net it can parse correctly. One big problem with this sort of testing is that it runs into the banner ad sites. I probably raised Yahoo's revenue by a few K in my trial run last night. Best, Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sat Jun 12 18:00:09 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: My.UserLand.Com FAQ Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990612081520.01dcff00@mail.userland.com> This morning we released a new user interface for My.UserLand.Com, our XML-based syndication aggregation server. Along with this new release is a new FAQ page, which I thought would be interesting to XML content developers: http://my.userland.com/faq Key points: We're compatible with My.Netscape.Com, building on RSS.. There are over 100 compatible channels, including The Motley Fool, Robot Wisdom, Internet Alchemy, MacWEEK, ZDNet, Webmonkey, Mozilla.Org and XML.COM.. The registration system is open to all members.. Our server scans each hour on the hour, the home page lists the changes during each day. Many sites are updating their RSS files several times a day, the most frequently recently updated ones rise to the top.. The service is open, we publish our channel list.. Not stated on the FAQ page, we are archiving all the XML text every night at midnight. So as this takes off, each news site leaves a trail behind, so that others can pick up the information later. Time is an important factor here, and we've captured it. Now that the flow is happening, we're starting to build more aggregation services. The first step was to figure out the user interface. I think we're there now. Questions, comments and suggestions are welcome. Dave Winer UserLand Software xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Jun 12 18:48:38 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37626DC5.CB1F94AB@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > I'm afraid that there _is_ widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. Note that there is also widespread dissatisfaction with namespaces, RDF, XLink and XML itself. > I may just be a lightning rod for people who don't like XSL, but I've had > at least 10 Java developers say they thought XSLT was a horrible mess, > along with about 15 Web developers. I thought that you liked XSLT. Did you change your mind? I think that it would be more productive to separate concerns about XSLT from concerns about FOs. > The 'FOs Considered Harmful' > discussions raised real problems, that most XSL enthusiasts seemed inclined > to ignore rather than solve, and those arguments go to the heart of what > the 'Web' is about. Nobody solved the FOs considered harmful problems because they are *insoluable*. You cannot force people to put semantic markup on the Web. CSS can't force them to do so. CSS (by itself) doesn't even *allow* them to. XSLT allows them to (just as the DOM does). In my mind that is a Good Thing. > The best I can say for XSL is that the XSL community got off on the wrong > foot by describing themselves as DSSSL-Lite and ignoring/denigrating CSS > rather than focusing on shared vocabularies. Transformation to XML+CSS > (even a rather modified and extended CSS) rather than transformation to FOs > of whatever vocabulary would have sidestepped 90% of these issues. > Instead, they forged ahead on their own, making enemies rather than allies. 20/20 hindsight is great but don't we all as individuals have the responsibility to move on to technical issues instead of talking about how things should have been done three years ago? Please, let's talk about technology! XSL FOs are very much based on CSS properties. Where do you see the conflicts occurring? What exactly is your complaint? If we changed the prefix from FO: to CSS: would that address your concern? > XSL could have looked very different had cooperation between XSL and CSS > begun earlier, but the core functionality you keep demanding would probably > have worked about the same. It would look very different *how*? What technical proposal are you making? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat Jun 12 18:48:29 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > All I can say on this one is that it sure hasn't felt like it from the > outside. At times, the public comments of W3C staff (plus former W3C folk) > and WG members on both sides have felt pretty much like open warfare, Differences of opinion are healthy. I don't see what the problem is with this. > and > coordination on vocabulary feels like an afterthought, nothing more. It is true that the W3C process encourages bottom up development where a spec. is developed and then integrated with the rest later. Of course the IETF and ISO have the same problem. The only way to do better would be to SLOW DOWN and map out the data and processing models before developing syntax. But who has time to figure out where we are going before we start driving? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sat Jun 12 23:00:27 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> <37591984.32F697C5@w3.org> <37597341.40FE2768@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3762C848.688DABB0@w3.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > > Chris Lilley wrote: > > > > > It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not > > > retrievable by the HTTP protocol. > > > > It would be, but no such examples were given. > > The XSL namespace is: > > http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 > > Is someone going to put something retrievable there? Why should something retrievable be put there? It functions just fine as a unique name without having to retrieve anything. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sat Jun 12 23:27:06 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990612142719.012242f0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:51 PM 6/12/99 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >> The XSL namespace is: >> http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 >> Is someone going to put something retrievable there? > >Why should something retrievable be put there? It functions just fine as >a unique name without having to retrieve anything. Might be a good idea to put a human-readable HTML doc there with a few words of explanation and a pointer to the WDs and other useful related resources. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 13 06:04:44 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:00 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> <37591984.32F697C5@w3.org> <37597341.40FE2768@prescod.net> <3762C848.688DABB0@w3.org> Message-ID: <37633558.3D983B93@prescod.net> Chris Lilley wrote: > > Paul Prescod wrote: > > > > Chris Lilley wrote: > > > > > > > It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not > > > > retrievable by the HTTP protocol. > > > > > > It would be, but no such examples were given. > > > > The XSL namespace is: > > > > http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 > > > > Is someone going to put something retrievable there? > > Why should something retrievable be put there? It functions just fine as > a unique name without having to retrieve anything. That's all very well and good but nameespace URIs are URIs *first* and (by definition) and whatever the namespace spec says they are ("globally unique name prefixes") second. According to the transcript above, you and I agree that HTTP URIs should not be used unless there is something retrievable by the HTTP protocol. That strikes me as common sense but can also be backed up by the relevant RFCs. (I'd rather not start the conversation again here...) URI must have a resource (even the null set) in order to be a URI. The 404 message is issued when there is no resource by a given name. Therefore the W3C's web server contradicts the recommendations of the (e.g.) XSLT specification. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sun Jun 13 09:12:12 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? References: Message-ID: <012801beb56b$9ba40b60$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > I would be very interested in any references to this > (or related) work that might me lying around. I spoke on this at SGML/XML Asia Pacific last year, taking Ted Nelson's article in the W3J as my starting point. I showed how XLink/XPointers could be used to achieve "parallel" markup then went on to discuss more philosophical issues relating to what assertions one is actually making when they mark up documents, arriving at the conclusion that the distinction between markup, content and presentation is a blurred, application-specific one (presentation is just another markup language, as is content). James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 13 18:25:13 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <3762C848.688DABB0@w3.org> Message-ID: <001101beb5ba$1bbbf580$0a000a0a@csg> > >http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 > > > > Is someone going to put something retrievable there? > > Why should something retrievable be put there? It functions just fine as > a unique name without having to retrieve anything. If someone could explain, I don't understand yet why a reference to such a 'namespace' would be useful, particularly if there is nothing there to access other than the seemingly ephemeral reference itself. -- Regards Clinton Gallagher NET cpio@metromilwaukee.com URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Sun Jun 13 18:42:11 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? References: Message-ID: <3763DF2B.6071@hiwaay.net> Robin Cover wrote: > > For those not familiar with the utter brilliance of Ted > Nelson (the world should have a few more like him!) see > for example > Trying to fix HTML is like trying to graft arms and legs > onto hamburger. There's got to be something better -- but > XML is the same thing and worse. EMBEDDED MARKUP IS A CANCER. Perhaps he is, Robin. I've a hard time with this comment as an expression of it. HTML, XML, SGML, etc. are all CS techniques to get work done: tradeoffs. Hypermedia floundered for years on the "brilliance" of such statements and only got working systems when some accepted engineering tradeoffs. More historical attention should be paid by the hypermedia communities to the niceties of scholarship with regards to the history of hypertext. The heroMachine of the WWW is disgusting even when it is just naivete. Still, for better or worse, and better IMHO, we now have tools that work because the Web starts with HyperText 101 (

and ) and grows from there. The advantage has been to get the entire world involved instead of just theorists, visionaries, and Brown U postDoc grads that made up most of the community prior to 1993. The one lesson I learned with no small portion of crow was, "we need to make this easier if we expect anyone to use it" - Jean Paoli For that to happen, like rock returns to blues, painters return to white, an writers return to haiku, sometimes to go forward, the blessed thing has to be torn down to basics and rebuilt. That is what the 1993 WWW was. It has a ways to go to reach Xanadu, but at least there are more people on the trek than were or could have been following Ted Nelson. HTML is dirt easy. XML is one step up. When you remove all the markup and just point, that's cool, but that is what relational systems do better than Xanadu. The good engineers use each tool where it works best. That's all. If the WWW has committed one mortal sin, it has been to work with the media to cannonize an effort that is simply that. Ted gets his 32 minutes of fame anyway. If he is committing a social faux pas, it is to denigrate the achievements of engineers who were willing, able, and succeeded in doing what he talked about. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Sun Jun 13 19:03:17 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <001101beb5ba$1bbbf580$0a000a0a@csg> References: <3762C848.688DABB0@w3.org> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990613130536.00a20e80@nexus.polaris.net> At 11:30 AM 06/13/1999 -0500, WorldNet wrote: >> >http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 >> > >> > Is someone going to put something retrievable there? >> >> Why should something retrievable be put there? It functions just fine as >> a unique name without having to retrieve anything. > >If someone could explain, I don't understand yet why a reference to such a >'namespace' would be useful, particularly if there is nothing there to >access other than the seemingly ephemeral reference itself. The idea is that a namespace identifier just needs to be a unique differentiator among element and attribute names that otherwise might be identical across various XML applications. The URI scheme has been suggested as a familiar way to accomplish this. I still haven't made up my own mind about it, but (to me) its chief flaw is that it *suggests* to a namespace-unaware human reader that There Is a "There" There. Namespace-aware software, however, doesn't make that mistake, which (again, to me) probably renders the flaw moot. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Sun Jun 13 19:38:07 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990613130536.00a20e80@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <001501beb5c4$4919d600$0a000a0a@csg> > The idea is that a namespace identifier just needs to be a unique > differentiate among element and attribute names that otherwise might be > identical across various XML applications. Okay, two or more documents interacting with one another are determined to have exact element and or attribute names so the namespace identifier then acts as a differentiator. What next? Meaning, I thought namespaces were going to be like libraries of contextual data definitions? >The URI scheme has been > suggested as a familiar way to accomplish this. I still haven't made up my > own mind about it, but (to me) its chief flaw is that it *suggests* to a > namespace-unaware human reader that There Is a "There" There. And I've become such an 'Accidental Tourist'. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Sun Jun 13 20:21:55 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <001501beb5c4$4919d600$0a000a0a@csg> References: <3.0.5.32.19990613130536.00a20e80@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990613142412.00b6b2e0@nexus.polaris.net> At 12:43 PM 06/13/1999 -0500, WorldNet wrote: >Okay, two or more documents interacting with one another >are determined to have exact element and or attribute names so the >namespace identifier then acts as a differentiator. What next? >Meaning, I thought namespaces were going to be like libraries >of contextual data definitions? It's understandable why someone might think so. But all a namespace is, in my understanding, is an abstract bucket in which can be placed all the "nouns" pertaining to a single XML universe of discourse. So if your documents never stray from a single such universe, they don't need namespaces. I think XSL is an interesting application in this case because the "nouns" it's intended to process will almost never be from the XSL universe itself. Some of XSL's own "nouns" (like apply-templates) are so distinctive in their own right that the likelihood of name clashes with the processed vocabularies, whatever they might be, is fairly small. Nonetheless, in the XML spirit of no-such-thing-as-a-reserved-word, an XSL processor expects you to declare that "in the context of this document [which just happens to be an XSL stylesheet], all XSL-specific nouns will be expressly associated with the XSL namespace." There's nothing magical about this. You could if you wanted associate the "xsl:" prefix with some *other* namespace. That would have to be almost calculatedly misleading on your part, though. :) >>The URI scheme has been >> suggested as a familiar way to accomplish this. I still haven't made up my >> own mind about it, but (to me) its chief flaw is that it *suggests* to a >> namespace-unaware human reader that There Is a "There" There. > >And I've become such an 'Accidental Tourist'. Anne Tyler, well, I'm not so sure I can force-fit her into an XML namespace discussion myself. But to return to the Gertrude Stein, er, namespace of "there is no there there," for a given XML document instance, a rose is not a sun:rose is not a midler:rose. That's all that namespaces are meant to keep sorted out. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrew at greenehouse.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:53 1999 From: andrew at greenehouse.com (andrew@greenehouse.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <375EF568.CB9DC3FF@citec.fi> (message from Michael Leventhal on Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:14:48 +0300) References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE8D@cc20exch2.mobility.com> <375EF568.CB9DC3FF@citec.fi> Message-ID: <19990610030123.AAA23447@AGREENE-NB.bitstream.com> The ultimate irony in this whole debate is that I found Michael's latest email message well-nigh unreadable because of the way it was "X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by towanda.citec.fi id CAA06003" -- characters converted to the =xx format, wide lines wrapped so that very long and very short lines were alternating within a paragraph, often with words broken arbitrarily at column 74. This is not a criticism of Michael -- I receive several email messages a day that suffer from this problem. Most of them I delete out of hand, but I would have liked to have been able to read Michael's message, and I may still run it through perl to unmimify it. My point is this: while we're "investing" all this time debating whether CSS+DOM+ECMAscript or XSL is a better tool (personally, I want both, each for its own problem domain), we can't even get universally readable plain-text email. Enough, already, let's get back to doing some real work! [Speaking for myself, and not for Bitstream, and Lord knows not for any committees, working groups, consortia, cabals, illuminati, or cohorts.] - Andrew Greene xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From a.mutjeanne at castsoftware.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:44 1999 From: a.mutjeanne at castsoftware.com (Aurore MUT-JEANNE) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: XSL Processor Message-ID: Hello, In your archives, you talk about a preview of the Microsoft XSL Processor. Unfortunately, the page on which it is supposed to be present does not exist anymore. Do you know the new location of this tool? Thank you for your help, Aurore MUT-JEANNE. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990614/96a4af45/attachment.htm From reagle at w3.org Mon Jun 14 10:26:45 1999 From: reagle at w3.org (Joseph M. Reagle Jr.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Prior-Art Related to SGML used for controlling communications structures Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990603131351.00d10af0@localhost> The W3C is surveying potential prior art to assess the claims of Patent Number: 5862325. At their Web site Intermind states: How do I know if I might infringe? Products that incorporate Intermind’s technology are fairly easy to recognize: among other features, they rely on the exchange between publishers and subscribers of a file containing metadata (such as an XML file) to set up an active communications link. We call this file the communications object. http://www.intermind.com/materials/patent_faq.html If you are familiar with any SGML applications that were used to control or structure the exchange of information over a network, please have a look at the brief description and let us know! [1] [1] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/intermind-p3p-patent-19990421.html _________________________________________________________ Joseph Reagle Jr. Policy Analyst mailto:reagle@w3.org XML-DSig Co-Chair http://w3.org/People/Reagle/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terris at terris.org Mon Jun 14 10:26:38 1999 From: terris at terris.org (Terris Linenbach) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Message-ID: <000501beaccb$cf72d320$de44480c@compaq> The benefits of marking up documents in XML instead of HTML include a consistent look, although editing XML isn't exactly convenient (forget about WYSIWYG). I am trying to find documentation on mark-up for technical documents, like those you would see on http://www.w3.org or http://msdn.microsoft.com. Some w3 documents are available as XML although I can't find documentation on the DTD or the code that was used to convert them to HTML. Any pointers? Do you use your own XML format and code to convert this XML to HTML? If so I would be interested in using what you have. thanks xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From miles at mistral.co.uk Mon Jun 14 10:26:42 1999 From: miles at mistral.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Confusion while implementing the DOM Message-ID: <000001bead3d$d818d930$2ae7b8c3@ontic> Don Park wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote, > > No mistake. A DocumentFragment *is* a Node. But if you > > try and insert it into the tree, you'll find that a > > conforming implementation will throw a > > HIERARCHY_REQUEST_ERR. > > Actually, inserting a DocumentFragment 'node' into a > tree should insert the child nodes of the > DocumentFragment (leaving it empty). Oops ... I *think* that what I was trying to say was ... exactly what you just said. Or maybe I temporarily took leave of my senses ;-) Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dietmar.loder at netway.at Mon Jun 14 10:26:55 1999 From: dietmar.loder at netway.at (dietmar.loder@netway.at) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: XMl - DTD and Table Definition Message-ID: <199906110913.LAA10119@webmail.netway.at> Hi, I am in the area of XML! Now I have to export and import large databases via XML-format. This data are structured in typical master-detail relations (1 master have approximatly 15 to 25 details records, one exportfile have 30000 - 500000 master elements). If I write the details records like the standard XML format, shown in serveral books and samples via www, I waste a lot of space for Start-End- Tag's. To minimize the filesize, I decide to use the
syntax. Questions: Is this allowed in a "well-formed" XML document? Or is this only allowed in HTML? How looks like a corresponding DTD for a table definition? Have someone samples for this problem? Dietmar -------------------------------------------------------------------------- dietmar.loder@netway.at xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From aroldan at homeside.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:51 1999 From: aroldan at homeside.com (Roldan, Alex) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Server side DTD validation only ? Message-ID: <342957C6CEFFD211A63B0008C707C3C82337FC@hslnt98jax.homeloan.com> To me It seems that performing DTD validation on the client and server side is an unnecessary overhead. Currently, I am only performing validation against the DTD on the server side app. The request and the response are both validated by the server app by pre-pending the DTD to the XML document before it is validated. The text XML data created by the client does not contain the DTD or an external reference to the DTD. 1. Is this the right approach ? 2. What are the problems I can run into ? Thanks Alex xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:39 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: Message-ID: <3754B8C0.3389B5EC@isogen.com> Didier PH Martin wrote: > interpretable documents. > c) If we choose to use a URL for a name space identifier, we create location > dependency to our documents, If we choose URNs, the documents are then > location independent. Again, with some forward thinking, the name space I would like to remind everyone that URLs are no more or less fragile or "location dependent" than URNs are. Both can be equally indirect. This is same as the bogus PUBLIC/SYSTEM distinction SGML makes: a pointer to a thing is a pointer to a thing, and the degree of indirection you expect to have behind it is both unknowable and irrelevant to the use of the pointer. Adding indirection within the data representation mechanism (e.g., entity resolution in SGML, URN resolution on the Web) may be convenient, but it is not a necessary prerequisite for having managable or persistent names. Persistence accrues from having persistent name servers, which any HTTP server can be, given that there are any number of ways to do indirect URI resolution within a server. Therefore the use or non-use of URNs is a technology choice to be made by resource owners and should not be a policy requirement imposed by standards. [For this reason, XML is *wrong* to require that notations use public IDs and not use system IDs, for example.] The only thing you know about URNs is that they will always involve one more level of indirection than the most direct URL. But the reverse is not true. That is, any URL could be just as indirect as any URN, and therefore, just as robust. Arguing about which form of name to use is a waste of time, because what's important isn't the name but the thing at the other end of it. What *is* important is the infrastructure in place for managing the indirection you need to make the names you control managable. But this issue is orthoganal to the URL/URN issue. One of the things that the Topic Map discussion should have made clear is that the idea of an "abstract thing" is bogus--there are only things. You either have only the name for the thing, in which case the name *is* the thing (because it's the only physical thing you've got) or you have the thing itself (the physical storage object the URI resolves to). In other words, if you identify a namespace with a URI which cannot be resolved to a resource (because no-one has defined the mapping from the URI to some physical object), then the URI *is* the namespace. That is, the character string that constitutes the URI is the physical (and therefore identifiable) resource that constitutes the namespace. Fortunately, the physical manifestation of a namespace is undefined, so any physical object will do to establish its identity, including a URI. If the URI can be resolved to a resource, then that resource establishes the identity of the namespace. It doesn't matter what the spelling of the URI is, only that it exists. Note that because there is no normative definition of what the definition of a namespace is (in the way, for example, that a DTD is normatively defined by the declarations in the DOCTYPE declaration or an SGML architecture is defined by its documentation and meta-DTD), all we can hope to get from the namespace declaration is establishment of identity of name spaces. That is, given two documents that both declare the use of a namespace, do they use the same or different name spaces? Since the same object can be addressed by many pointers, I would normally expect to get an object from each pointer and then see if I've gotten the same object [Note that it is up to the storage managers for the objects to determine and report identity--but that's inherent in the way computers work--since we cannot physically see and touch storage objects in most forms of media, we are dependent on the storage managers to tell us what we need to know.] If I can't resolve the pointer, then all I have is the pointer itself. If the true intent of the namespace mechanism is that the URI *is* the namespace (in the sense defined above), then they have to *disallow* resolution of the URI, otherwise, you cannot reliably establish namespace identity because two different URIs could identify the same resource. If the only objects you have are the URIs, then you know that if two URIs are different that you have two different name spaces (because the namespace objects, the URIs, are different). If namespace URIs can be resolved, then if you have two URIs, one of which you can resolve to a resource and one of which you cannot, you cannot know whether the two namespaces are the same or different because identity of the one whose URI you couldn't resolve has yet to be established (URIs cannot by themselves establish the identity of the resources they address). If you want to have namespaces for which the *only* physical manifestation is the URI of the namespace, then there must be defined a URN domain in which the URNs are their own resources. It is not enough to simply say "namespace URNs are not to be resolved", because the namespace spec doesn't have the authority to disallow the resolution of URNs. Besides, it's bogus to have namespaces that are not documented in some way, even if the namespace spec doesn't require it. Without some authoritative definition of the namespace, how can I know whether or not I'm using it correctly. Therefore, there must *always* be some resource for the name space and it is the responsibility of the namespace owner to make that resource reliably addressible within its expected scope of use. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. eliot@isogen.com 2200 N. Lamar St, #230, Dallas, TX 75202 512.339.1400, www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Steve.Ball at zveno.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:50 1999 From: Steve.Ball at zveno.com (Steve Ball) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file References: <19990608153917.7335.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <375E5B99.6AD80BFB@zveno.com> Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote: > > This is very urgent. Is there any program or tool > which converts an XML document to ascii text file. I have a simple example, "dexml.tcl", on the TclXML Website: http://www.zveno.com/zm.cgi/in-tclxml/ It just outputs the character data to a file or standard output. With a little scripting, you could do something with the markup as well. HTHs, Steve Ball -- Steve Ball | Swish XML Editor | Training & Seminars Zveno Pty Ltd | Web Tcl Complete | XML XSL http://www.zveno.com/ | TclXML TclDOM | Tcl, Web Development Steve.Ball@zveno.com | Ph. +61 2 6242 4099 | Fax +61 2 6242 4099 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From matt.sergeant at ericsson.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:49 1999 From: matt.sergeant at ericsson.com (Matt Sergeant) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file References: <19990608153917.7335.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <375D44BE.45F3C287@ericsson.com> Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote: > > Hi All, > > This is very urgent. Is there any program or tool > which converts an XML document to ascii text file. > Thanks in advance. Have you tried `cat` ? ;-) Your easiest option might be perl (for various values of "might"). Here's a one liner: perl -MXML::Parser -e "XML::Parser->new(Handlers=> {Char => sub {print $_[1]}})->parse(*STDIN)" < xmlfile Which simply strips all the tags away. That is what you want, right? Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eliot at isogen.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:40 1999 From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:01 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: Message-ID: <3754EE1F.8498F9D1@isogen.com> Didier PH Martin wrote: > Didier says: > Exactly. A URI represent something. It is a U_niform R_esource I_dentifier. > It provides identitity to a resource. No, a URI does *not* provide identity to a resource--it *identifies* a resource, but it does not provide identity for the resource. That is, given two different URIs, you cannot know, from the URIs alone, whether they identify the same resource or a different resource. This is because the same resource can be identified by many different URIs, just as a human can have many different names. Unless the URI *is* the resource, it does not establish identity of the resource it addresses. And note that identity can only be truly established at a specific point in time. The same URI resolved at two different points in time may resolve to provably different resources. Cheers, E. --
W. Eliot Kimber, Senior Consulting SGML Engineer ISOGEN International Corp. eliot@isogen.com 2200 N. Lamar St, #230, Dallas, TX 75202 512.339.1400, www.isogen.com
xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From re6 at mindspring.com Mon Jun 14 10:26:34 1999 From: re6 at mindspring.com (RE6 Computer Services) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Newbie comment on URNs and URLs- (RE: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!)) Message-ID: <000001beabba$e2c6d1e0$7c1756d1@LocalHost> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 >-----Original Message----- *(edited) >Didier says: >Here we are. I remember a good discussion (within IETF groups) we got about >URIs and a lack of a RFC explaining the role of each. We didn't reached >consensus and the result today... we are right in the problem :-)) > >I remember that the main point is the name. Read attentively the following >name: U_niversal R_esource L_ocator > >The name itself self describe in the sense that it is used to express a >location, a "place". > >At contrario, a: U_niversal R_esource N_ame >Is a "name". > >The former explicitely contains the meaning of a location. The latter the >explicitely the meaning of a "name" and not of a location. For instance, I >may use the URN convention to express the inventory record identifiers or as >identifier for some collection organized in a typical name space. >But, if we want to express a location with a URL, its made for this. So, if >the name space reference uses a URL and that no document is at the other >end, it is like a 404 error (in the case of the HTTP protocol). Or like >having a rendez-vous but nobody came to it :-) > >regards >Didier PH Martin >mailto:martind@netfolder.com >http://www.netfolder.com - -----END ORIGINAL MESSAGE----- Pardon for the interruption, but I've been following this thread, and it seems to me that Didier has said it succinctly: Use the URLs to point to a URN. The question of how to identify a document uniquely is another matter, and one that is to be addressed by the URN, and not the URL, correct? Also, much ado has been made about the seeming requirement to have one and only one "object" on a network. In small to medium-sized networks, such as a local network or a corporate network, that makes sense. In larger networks it doesn't make sense. It is impractical to jump 73 times to retrieve a document 12 Meg in size at the same time 120,000 other people are trying to retrieve it. Nor does it make sense to make 73 jumps to retrieve an object that is only 18k in size. Notice the popularity of "mirrors". On a network the size of the Internet, one instance of an object is clearly not the best approach. The key, though, is that each instance has a unique identity combined with its URL. An analogy: URNs and URLs are related as telephone lines are related to entities: I can have several telephone numbers, each one pointing to a unique individual (me). I would be considered a URN, and each of the phone lines would be considered the URLs. However, because I am unique, that does not mean I have a unique name. It is only unique when it is combined with a unique identifier, such as a URL (phone number). Obviously, URLs can only point to one unique object, period. The only reason that it isn't a good unique identifier is if the object's *location* changes. If I move to Florida, USA, then my phone numbers change and I can no longer be uniquely identified by the old ones. Nor does it help anyone trying to contact the prior owners of the telephone numbers I inherit in Florida. In a DNS, the domain name is coupled with an IP address. HTTP utilizes the IP addresses to find its way on the network; which leads me to wonder if the DNS can also affiliate a domain name AND a URN to a location instead of having another dedicated server provide the same function? Therefore, I don't see a problem using HTTP to specify a URN to retrieve rather than the URL, which changes just as long as the DNS is updated with the new location. Sort of like using "call forwarding" on my old telephone lines to ensure that I continue to receive phone calls to my old numbers (URLs). After a specified period of time, that service is discontinued; anyone not getting the change information would have to relocate my telephone numbers which is usually accomplished by using my name and other personal information (URN). Of course, one of the great things about IP addresses and domain names is that it is much easier to change where a URL points, especially if the hyper link uses a domain name rather than specifying IP addresses. After all, wasn't that one of the intents behind creating domain name systems? In other words, although a URL is a unique identifier, it should not be used as part of the URN, a truly unique identification for that object. One last question: If an object is copied, is the URN supposed to change, or is it supposed to remain the same? My apologies if I have inadvertently offended someone's intellect, or if I have violated any rules of conduct, or performed any other type of rude error. Sincerely, Robert Reese~ RE6 Computer Services re6@mindspring.com "You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong." - Unknown -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGP 6.0.2 Comment: Outrageous! iQA/AwUBN1MXCA1HXbubR+OwEQKvzgCgzzbz6Jcg6fK3voDFCCVI5tHoMcYAoOnS YZdeqWTgwhvxClo+5cBPdO3z =16tj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Mon Jun 14 11:05:42 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Message-ID: <199906140907.CAA09963@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> How about DocBook? Seems like just what you're looking for. I'm only familiar with the XML-flavor of DocBook, but it originates from its SGML ancestor. Norm Walsh has quite a bit of info on it (Both XML/SGML versions) at: http://nwalsh.com/sgml/index.html He's recently posted some XSL Stylesheets for DocBook there, too. _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Terris Linenbach" Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Date: 02 Jun 99 00:44:54 Size: 2745 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990614/3da2a6a9/attachment.eml From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Mon Jun 14 12:15:45 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Message-ID: <01BEB65F.9BD4B770@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Terris Linenbach wrote: > I am trying to find documentation on mark-up for technical > documents, like those you would see on http://www.w3.org or > http://msdn.microsoft.com. Some w3 documents are available > as XML although I can't find documentation on the > DTD or the code that was used to convert them to HTML. You can find the DTD that the W3C uses to write specs at: http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-report-19980910.htm (I assume this is the current version, but don't actually know that for sure.) -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon Jun 14 13:19:43 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Newbie comment on URNs and URLs- (RE: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!)) In-Reply-To: <000001beabba$e2c6d1e0$7c1756d1@LocalHost> Message-ID: Hi Robert, Robert said: In other words, although a URL is a unique identifier, it should not be used as part of the URN, a truly unique identification for that object. One last question: If an object is copied, is the URN supposed to change, or is it supposed to remain the same? Didier says: If the copy is exactly a mirror of the original, you can add it to the URL list associated to a particular URN. And about the resolver, yes, a HTTP server could be used to resolve URNs as long as you have the client part that knows where to connect to resolve the particular name space. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Mon Jun 14 13:28:55 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? In-Reply-To: <3763DF2B.6071@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 13 Jun 1999, Len Bullard wrote: > Robin Cover wrote: > > > > For those not familiar with the utter brilliance of Ted > > Nelson (the world should have a few more like him!) see [...] > Perhaps he is, Robin. I've a hard time with this comment as an > expression of it. > > HTML, XML, SGML, etc. are all CS techniques to > get work done: tradeoffs. Hypermedia floundered for years on the > "brilliance" of such statements and only got working systems when > some accepted engineering tradeoffs. [...] How can I pick up a sword to defend Ted Nelson (as though he could benefit from that) when, on any given day, I'd just as quickly take delight in defending you? No, Len Bullard, I respect you too much to argue religion, philosophy, and politics in public space [offline if you want]. I even agree with you to a point, though my threshold is much lower than for many, I suspect, in identifying the point at which "worse is better" (lectio difficilior preferendum est) have been applied ad absurdum. More often I hear these tunes sung by poor souls seeking to console themselves, having capitulated in the abandonment of some high ideal. Contrariwise: at the level I experience the Web via HTTP/HTML, a heap of broken links, it's massively and profoundly broken by design. That "people use it" is quite unremarkable, in one respect, as another of the one-liners on Ted's page says: "Microsoft is not the problem; Microsoft is the symptom." Ted's judgment probably seems harsh because he measures a thing against its potential -- not just by "nothing is proven to work better than..." That he may himself be judged a failure as compared (e.g.,) to Bill Gates is no doubt the common verdict. In referencing his brilliance, I was speaking from a different reference point, and different set of values, where measurement by counting companies acquired, companies brought to IPO, and 'successful' software products delivered (etc.) has no currency. Among Ted's gifts, some would say, is an unusual ability to damn mediocrity by identifying it and labeling it so plainly that it hurts. -r xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 14 15:08:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? In-Reply-To: <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > It is true that the W3C process encourages bottom up development > where a spec. is developed and then integrated with the rest > later. Of course the IETF and ISO have the same problem. The only > way to do better would be to SLOW DOWN and map out the data and > processing models before developing syntax. But who has time to > figure out where we are going before we start driving? In principle, I know that Paul is right; in practice, I've lost much of the faith that I once had in top-down approaches to anything, from system design to macroeconomics. More specifically, top-down can work only with very, very good models, and even I (who am known to shoot my mouth off) would not go so far as to claim that I can produce a sufficiently accurate and complete model of the Web over the next five years; in the absence of such a model, bottom-up development and the free market of ideas is the only reasonable choice, messy as it may be. Remember the big experiments in top-down, centralized economic planning in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s? Our grandchildren may still be paying off the debts from that one. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 14 15:19:56 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <001101beb5ba$1bbbf580$0a000a0a@csg> References: <3762C848.688DABB0@w3.org> <001101beb5ba$1bbbf580$0a000a0a@csg> Message-ID: <14181.330.386270.366799@localhost.localdomain> WorldNet writes: > If someone could explain, I don't understand yet why a reference to > such a 'namespace' would be useful, particularly if there is > nothing there to access other than the seemingly ephemeral > reference itself. You can uniquely identify names across document types; for example, a search engine could recognize an HTML element in many different document types, and a rendering engine could have a library of handlers for well-known element types. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 14 15:43:36 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <000a01beb469$cde7aa30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <4.0.1.19990613212137.00f50eb0@pop.hesketh.net> At 08:23 PM 6/11/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: > Mess? why? Aside from the fact that declarative 'programming' can be a >paradigm shift for those used to procedural programming. But that old >argument aside, isn't there room for both styles? We have ECMAScript, Java, >Python, PERL etc as common languages. Why not add XSLT? Diversity in >languages is a Good Thing. I have used most major computer languages over >the past 2 decades and support XSLT as a unique and useful addition to this >family. It's more than a paradigm shift affecting people, from what I've heard. XSL lets you do a lot, but finding organizing principles to do it with appears to be harder than perhaps it should be. Perhaps this is just a matter of time, or perhaps the problem is just that XSL is indeed ugly and verbose and provides few hooks for developers used to working with other Web technologies. > And the XSLT folks? What would you have them do? Do you believe: > >1) transformations are not important In some cases, like transforming XML tables to SVG, it's great. I'm not convinced that it's important in every case, nor am I convinced that XSLT is the 'right' way to handle transformations. >2) procedural languages (e.g. ECMAScript+DOM) can handle transformations >just fine. Yep. I got started in this area through Dynamic HTML, so I'm undoubtedly biased, but this supposedly incredible need for XSL escapes me. >3) DSSSL can be modified to better handle transformations I haven't said one thing about DSSSL one way or the other. If the SGML community wants to invest further in DSSSL, that's great. If not, it's not anywhere near my problem. >4) XSLT is just not a good way to transform (and if so please suggest >another) Ugly, verbose... perhaps useful in some situations, but hardly a crying need when other tools that have been widely implemented are capable of providing the same functionality. I think we've come back around to the root of the argument. If you want to continue, we can circle around a few more times. I'm off to JavaOne, so I'll only be able to circle sporadically for the next few days. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Mon Jun 14 16:02:33 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Attached msg of the Steve Muench post on RE: tech doc ML (TDML?) In-Reply-To: <199906140907.CAA09963@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Message-ID: Is the Steve Muench attachment safe to open ? What is this "msg" format about ? Why post in "msg" format, why not HTML or just plain text ? Attached is a copy of the msg format from the Steve Muench post |-----Original Message----- |From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of |Steve Muench |Sent: Monday, June 14, 1999 4:07 AM |To: terris@terris.org |Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk |Subject: Re: tech doc ML (TDML?) | | |How about DocBook? Seems like just what you're looking for. | |I'm only familiar with the XML-flavor of DocBook, but |it originates from its SGML ancestor. | |Norm Walsh has quite a bit of info on it (Both XML/SGML versions) at: | | http://nwalsh.com/sgml/index.html | |He's recently posted some XSL Stylesheets for DocBook |there, too. | |_________________________________________________________ |Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist |Business Components for Java Dev't Team |http://www.oracle.com/xml | -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Terris Linenbach" Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1999 19:44:54 -0500 Size: 1570 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990614/dc728e31/attachment.eml From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 14 16:10:07 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <37626DC5.CB1F94AB@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> At 09:25 AM 6/12/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >"Simon St.Laurent" wrote: >> I'm afraid that there _is_ widespread dissatisfaction with XSL in general. > >Note that there is also widespread dissatisfaction with namespaces, RDF, >XLink and XML itself. Apart from Ted Nelson's excellent "Embedded Markup Considered Harmful", I haven't seen much claiming that XML is a danger to the semantic Web the W3C seems interested in building. Dissatisfaction with particulars, of course, is rampant. That seemed to generate most of the violence over namespaces. Dissatisfaction with the project? I think XSL has a pretty good claim to most of that. >I thought that you liked XSLT. Did you change your mind? I don't think XSLT is necessary, though I certainly can see where people might want to use it for certain cases. As far as XSLT's structure is concerned, I can't say it thrills me. It does work, however. >I think that it would be more productive to separate concerns about XSLT >from concerns about FOs. If FOs didn't exist, I think we could do that. Unfortunately, because the original drive of XSL was transformation into FOs, and not into a modified tree annotated with formatting information, I don't think it's possible unless you change FOs. >Nobody solved the FOs considered harmful problems because they are >*insoluable*. You cannot force people to put semantic markup on the Web. >CSS can't force them to do so. CSS (by itself) doesn't even *allow* them >to. XSLT allows them to (just as the DOM does). In my mind that is a Good >Thing. CSS+XML doesn't allow them to post semantic markup? (CSS by itself doesn't let you post _anything_, so I don't know what you're talking about. HTML?) The question is not whether FO's harmfulness is solvable, it's whether it's an acceptable cost. I see it as a cost that wouldn't have been incurred had we stuck to annotation for formatting - while you could strip semantics to SPAN and DIV if you really wanted, the whole selector mechanism of Cascading Style Sheets discourages such practice. It would have taken an extra level of processing to do that stripping. Output to HTML from XSLT is ugly, but it's an ugly we're already used to and which XHTML is smoothing out to some extent anyway. >20/20 hindsight is great but don't we all as individuals have the >responsibility to move on to technical issues instead of talking about how >things should have been done three years ago? In this case, 20/20 hindsight for the XSL community is an "I told you so" for the CSS community. Take a look at the early battles on XSL-list and you'll see that I'm saying nothing original here - these arguments were on the list before I even subscribed. Doesn't it seem like our responsibility to learn from the lessons of _one_ year ago rather than racking up the same kinds of problems again and again? >Please, let's talk about technology! XSL FOs are very much based on CSS >properties. Where do you see the conflicts occurring? What exactly is your >complaint? If we changed the prefix from FO: to CSS: would that address >your concern? The problem, fundamentally, is that XSL FOs are an element vocabulary, while CSS properties lived inside attributes or style sheets, without disrupting the original element names. Make FOs properties rather than elements, and maybe we can talk. Of course, this would mean reexamining XSL FOs from a CSS perspective, and I'm not sure that's a technical proposition the XSL community would enjoy for political reasons. >> XSL could have looked very different had cooperation between XSL and CSS >> begun earlier, but the core functionality you keep demanding would probably >> have worked about the same. > >It would look very different *how*? What technical proposal are you >making? See above. Transformations to an endpoint that still had as much semantics as the original - formatting properties represented as attributes rather than elements - might have avoided lots of the 'considered harmful' issues that you want to ignore. I think inclusion and sequence are the only large problems such an approach presents, and I don't think they're insoluble. (Unlike FOs' harmfulness, for example.) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jun 14 16:16:46 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:02 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <3754B8C0.3389B5EC@isogen.com> Message-ID: <37650F40.A1FBFCA3@locke.ccil.org> W. Eliot Kimber wrote: > [For this reason, XML is *wrong* to require that notations use public > IDs and not use system IDs, for example.] Say what? Notations *permit* the use of public ids without system ids, since system ids are always URIs (where ) in XML. It's entities that require URIs, and don't allow bare public ids. > You either have only the name for the thing, in which case the name *is* > the thing (because it's the only physical thing you've got) or you have > the thing itself (the physical storage object the URI resolves to). Wow. Nominalism redivivus: universals as flatus URis. :-) But really that won't do. One can live with only concrete things and classes, but classes are not eliminable in favor of concrete things only, nor are they just names: the number of classes, indeed, outruns the number of names. > If the true intent of the namespace mechanism is that the URI *is* the > namespace (in the sense defined above), then they have to *disallow* > resolution of the URI, otherwise, you cannot reliably establish > namespace identity because two different URIs could identify the same > resource. If the only objects you have are the URIs, then you know that > if two URIs are different that you have two different name spaces > (because the namespace objects, the URIs, are different). If namespace > URIs can be resolved, then if you have two URIs, one of which you can > resolve to a resource and one of which you cannot, you cannot know > whether the two namespaces are the same or different because identity of > the one whose URI you couldn't resolve has yet to be established (URIs > cannot by themselves establish the identity of the resources they > address). This confuses the *possibility* of resolving a namespace URI with the *non-necessity* of doing so. I take the position of the Namespace Rec to be that resolution is not useful for determining identity (namespace identity = URI identity) but resolution *may* provide properties of the namespace other than identity, because of the principle of the indiscernibility of identicals: if two namespace URIs are identical, the resources they mention are either non-existent or identical likewise. (The converse does not hold, of course.) The result is that two namespace URIs which resolve to the same resource define two namespaces which share some properties but are not identical. It is not necessarily the case that URNs are resolvable to URLs: the URN urn:isbn:0-671-79573-2 has a referent (_The Gripping Hand_, by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, 1st edn hc) but 1) is not resolvable to an URL and 2) more strongly, there does not exist an URL which would be a correct resolution of it. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 14 16:44:18 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: XMl - DTD and Table Definition Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEEA@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > I am in the area of XML! Now I have to export and import > large databases via XML-format. This data are structured in typical > master-detail relations (1 master have approximatly 15 to 25 details records, one > exportfile have 30000 - 500000 master elements). > If I write the details records like the standard XML format, shown in > serveral books and samples via www, I waste a lot of space > for Start-End-Tag's. To minimize the filesize, I decide to use the
> syntax. The "standard" format you refer to (presumably something like ShakespeareHamlet) is not a standard at all, it is merely a convention that many people use. If space is a concern (and with big databases it certainly is) there are several other approaches possible: 1. Compress the file using a standard compression utility. 2. Use shorter tags ( e.g. for ) 3. Identify columns by position rather than by name, for example: ShakespeareHamlet This is similar to using TABLE & TD as you suggest (but shorter). You need to think about how to represent null values, though: and if there are very many nulls, you can end up using more space than with the named columns approach. 4. If space is really tight you could even shorten the above to: ShakespeareHamlet (where the empty tag acts as a separator); but you're starting to make it more difficult to parse, eliminating the benefits of using XML in the first place. > Questions: > > Is this allowed in a "well-formed" XML document? Yes, you can use tags to mean anything you like so long as they are properly nested. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Mon Jun 14 17:26:07 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Looking for a tool Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990614112829.006979b8@tiac.net> Hey all, I'm looking for a command-line XML validator. Something I can use in my development process the way you'd use lint: % checkvalid mydoc.xml mydoc.xml:89: you messed this one up mydoc.xml:101: and this one Perl, C source, or windows binary would be fine. Any recommendations? -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 17:49:03 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Server side DTD validation only ? References: <342957C6CEFFD211A63B0008C707C3C82337FC@hslnt98jax.homeloan.com> Message-ID: <376524BF.1E88E743@pacbell.net> "Roldan, Alex" wrote: > > To me It seems that performing DTD validation on the client and server side > is an unnecessary overhead. Currently, I am only performing validation > against the DTD on the server side app. The request and the response are > both validated by the server app by pre-pending the DTD to the XML document > before it is validated. The text XML data created by the client does not > contain the DTD or an external reference to the DTD. > > 1. Is this the right approach ? If you control both the client and server, and can keep them always in sync (e.g. you're downloading the client from that server) so that you don't run into versioning problems. >From my perspective, both of those restrictions are atypical. Of course you also have to keep in mind that validation is only one level of error checking, and it's possible that the other levels will catch the problems that'd crop up. > 2. What are the problems I can run into ? If you write clients for network programs, you learn that you must not trust servers to perform according to their specifications ... e.g. a server operated by a business competitor might very well attempt to subvert clients that are trusting. It is routine to check the format of data as it's being imported. (And vice versa -- when clients send data to servers, the servers shouldn't trust it, for the same reasons.) Hence the clause above "if you control both the client and server" -- two different companies shouldn't take that approach in their client/server code. Systems are also not static. They evolve over time. The rules for what is correct/valid change over time. If your clients have every reason to trust the servers (and vice versa) you can _still_ run into problems if it's possible for the protocol versions to be mismatched. Hence the clause above "and can keep them in sync". - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 18:15:17 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3754EE1F.8498F9D1@isogen.com> Message-ID: <37652B06.C2F6C463@pacbell.net> "W. Eliot Kimber" wrote: > > Didier PH Martin wrote: > > > Didier says: > > Exactly. A URI represent something. It is a U_niform R_esource I_dentifier. > > It provides identitity to a resource. > > No, a URI does *not* provide identity to a resource--it *identifies* a resource, > but it does not provide identity for the resource. That is, given two different > URIs, you cannot know, from the URIs alone, whether they identify the same > resource or a different resource. True enough ... > Unless the URI *is* the resource, it does not establish identity of the resource > it addresses. Which is the case in XML namespaces, by reading from me and others. There is explicit language in the specification saying that "It is not a goal that it be directly usable for retrieval of a schema (if any exists)." Any resource identified by the URI doesn't matter at all. The only characteristics required of that URI are "uniqueness and persistence" ... NOT ability to actually retrieve a resource it may identify (largely disclaimed by the non-goal quoted above) or to be equated with some other URI for comparison purposes (which may be a fine idea but isn't required by the spec). > And note that identity can only be truly established at a specific point in > time. The same URI resolved at two different points in time may resolve to > provably different resources. That'd be true if the URI in namespaces were used for any purpose other than being a unique identifier. But it isn't; there's no (!!!) requirement that the URI point to anything, and any code that tries to associate the namespace with the results of resolving that URI is going beyond what the XML Namespace spec allows. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Mon Jun 14 18:19:56 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Server side DTD validation only ? In-Reply-To: <376524BF.1E88E743@pacbell.net> References: <342957C6CEFFD211A63B0008C707C3C82337FC@hslnt98jax.homeloan.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990614122209.006f8b7c@mail.muzmo.com> The moral that I take from this exchange is: DTD validation can be exclusively server-side if the client has sufficient trust in the server, otherwise client-side validation is recommended. Please note that certain applications will want to have servers on both sides of an exchange, with the client communicating with a local server that may or may not perform validation of its own. Thus, a client's trust in a server can be mitigated by the presence of an intermediary server that performs pre-validation as a trusted service for the client. For example, in a telephony application, any switch along the path of a document exchange, from sender to recipient, can be responsible for validating along the way. So, the sender's server (a phone) might validate the message that it sends out, or it may restrict its messages to a canned set of messages that conform to an industry standard. As the message is received into the telephone network, and at any switch along the way, a validation service is free to test any message -- rejecting/returning any message that is not valid. The client's telephone service might have its own message processing service that checks incoming messages and performs functions on behalf of the client, and it may choose to validate. Before transmitting a message to the client, the telco's messaging service checks with the client and asks whether it wants the server to validate on its behalf. And when the client gets the message, a local validation service might be available for messages that have not been pre-validated -- for whatever reason. At 08:50 AM 6/14/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >"Roldan, Alex" wrote: >> >> To me It seems that performing DTD validation on the client and server side >> is an unnecessary overhead. Currently, I am only performing validation >> against the DTD on the server side app. The request and the response are >> both validated by the server app by pre-pending the DTD to the XML document >> before it is validated. The text XML data created by the client does not >> contain the DTD or an external reference to the DTD. >> >> 1. Is this the right approach ? > >If you control both the client and server, and can keep them >always in sync (e.g. you're downloading the client from that >server) so that you don't run into versioning problems. > >From my perspective, both of those restrictions are atypical. > >Of course you also have to keep in mind that validation is >only one level of error checking, and it's possible that the >other levels will catch the problems that'd crop up. > > >> 2. What are the problems I can run into ? > >If you write clients for network programs, you learn that >you must not trust servers to perform according to their >specifications ... e.g. a server operated by a business >competitor might very well attempt to subvert clients that >are trusting. It is routine to check the format of data >as it's being imported. (And vice versa -- when clients >send data to servers, the servers shouldn't trust it, for >the same reasons.) Hence the clause above "if you control >both the client and server" -- two different companies >shouldn't take that approach in their client/server code. > >Systems are also not static. They evolve over time. The >rules for what is correct/valid change over time. If your >clients have every reason to trust the servers (and vice >versa) you can _still_ run into problems if it's possible >for the protocol versions to be mismatched. Hence the >clause above "and can keep them in sync". > >- Dave > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon Jun 14 18:34:02 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Looking for a tool In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990614112829.006979b8@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990614112829.006979b8@tiac.net> Message-ID: * Joshua E. Smith | | Hey all, I'm looking for a command-line XML validator. Something I | can use in my development process the way you'd use lint: | | % checkvalid mydoc.xml | mydoc.xml:89: you messed this one up | mydoc.xml:101: and this one RXP has a command-line interface that can validate (and is available as C source), xmlproc does the same (available for Python) and most of the validating Java parsers probably have this as well. You may also want to look at IBM's xml4c, although that is C++. See for URLs and more alternatives. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Mon Jun 14 18:37:44 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <37652B06.C2F6C463@pacbell.net> References: <3754EE1F.8498F9D1@isogen.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990614124020.006e937c@mail.muzmo.com> At 09:17 AM 6/14/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >That'd be true if the URI in namespaces were used for any purpose >other than being a unique identifier. But it isn't; there's no (!!!) >requirement that the URI point to anything, and any code that tries >to associate the namespace with the results of resolving that URI is >going beyond what the XML Namespace spec allows. Beyond Namespaces. Catchy title. Good idea. The 'Namespaces in XML' quite rightly limited itself to identifiers. There is nothing preventing another spec -- say XML Schema -- from leveraging namespace identifiers and adding mechanisms to allow resolution of associated resources, is there?. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 18:59:34 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3765355F.A0BC7097@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > In principle, I know that Paul is right; in practice, I've lost much > of the faith that I once had in top-down approaches to anything, from > system design to macroeconomics. Stop being reasonable, David ... it really doesn't go with the political climate anywhere nowadays!! ;-) All the same, I agree. True innovation rarely comes from the top down. The history of technology shows it conclusively. It's the sociology of things -- the incentives need to go to the right people, and when innovation is the game, people at the "top" of the heap usually can't even see the problems that need those innovations (and often can't risk letting them get fixed, if they can see them). What's interesting is the cycles that show up. Bottom-up phases get followed by top-down ones, get followed by bottom-up ones again. IP networking grew bottom up, but nowadays there are lots of top-down network management tools that are essential (when they work :-) as well as small networks and ISPs. Personal computers are now driven by corporate buyers, not hackers. Operating systems for PCs started as bottom up, have had a detour through a top-down monopoly, and now there's again a growing interest in more grass-roots efforts such as Linux ... which curiously enough are now harnessing quite a lot of "top down" work done over the last few decades! Top-down approaches work when the problems are relatively stable; but things like the web are changing way too fast for that. Bottom-up ones work to harness innovation, in terms both of technologies (e.g. new web technologies) and business models (e.g. open source). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 14 19:30:27 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3754EE1F.8498F9D1@isogen.com> <3.0.1.32.19990614124020.006e937c@mail.muzmo.com> Message-ID: <37653CA6.E9913FF@pacbell.net> Murray Maloney wrote: > > At 09:17 AM 6/14/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >That'd be true if the URI in namespaces were used for any purpose > >other than being a unique identifier. But it isn't; there's no (!!!) > >requirement that the URI point to anything, and any code that tries > >to associate the namespace with the results of resolving that URI is > >going beyond what the XML Namespace spec allows. > > Beyond Namespaces. Catchy title. Good idea. Necessary! The namespaces spec solves only one of the many problems that need solving ... ;-) > The 'Namespaces in XML' quite rightly limited itself to identifiers. > > There is nothing preventing another spec -- say XML Schema -- from > leveraging namespace identifiers and adding mechanisms to allow > resolution of associated resources, is there?. Subject to some constraints -- nothing prevents that. For example it'd be fine for one schema system to be able to to a say which namespace identifiers point to additional information ... but it'd be wrong (conflicting with the namespace spec!) to do so for any namespaces that's not explicitly declared to work that way. Example: ... ... The semantics of the "URI-2" namespace URI would define what that "schema" element, and its "fetch-from" attribute, means. It could declare that its "fetch-from" attribute value (URI-1 in this example) associates resources withsome namespace URI. But that wouldn't apply in the case of URI-3, unless the URI-1 schema declared that's how the URI-3 namespace worked. Yes, I'm assuming a multiplicity of schema systems ... and even that many schemas would allow for mixing content they don't control. I think both are inevitable/essential. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Mon Jun 14 19:35:18 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) References: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111614.MAA30348@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37653BA9.D10C0A6A@w3.org> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > No, I'm not asking to be made an expert, and no, I'm not interested in > joining a W3C member organization to get access. I'm hoping that someday > the W3C will find an endowment or some other means of supporting itself so > it can drop this $5000+/year charade that keeps the smoke-filled rooms > closed to small firms and individuals. Well, if someone has a whole heap of money going, that would be great. In the mean time, well, wages have to be paid somehow. > I'll remain an outsider until the > W3C gets rid of the rules that separate insiders and outsiders. Bear in mind that, even for members, not everyone gets to play. Working groups are serious things, with deadlines and dependencies on each other. So, to join a particular working group, a member has to officially allocate time for the designated participant - typically 20% of a full time equivalent each - and attendance at weekly hour-long telcons, and travel and time for quarterly or bimonthly face to face meetings somewhere on the planet. That cost would not go away, even if everyone could become a member. > In the meantime, I'll have to put up with the organization and hope that it > takes its mission as seriously as its membership. The seriousness of the mission determines the need to have paid staff who work full time on this; volunteer labour is all very well but has inherent limitations. Yes, I would like to be able to bring in more people and yes, I know that there are problems for very small companies, individual consultants, and so on. Currently I don't see a viable alternative economic setup, though. And I do see good work being done and a positive benefit being made to the Web. Otherwise, well, I would go work someplace else. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jun 14 19:39:53 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 12:40 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Murray Maloney wrote: >There is nothing preventing another spec -- say XML Schema -- from >leveraging namespace identifiers and adding mechanisms to allow >resolution of associated resources, is there?. Yes. I think it would be completely inadmissable for XML schemas to try to claim ownership of the resource at the end of the namespace URI. (Note that RDF kind of does so, which is a grievous error). Here's why. A schema is an interesting external resource that you often need to aid in processing an XML resource. But it's just one of them. You also sometimes need - a stylesheet - more stylesheets (because of cascading, or because you only believe in one of the stylesheet religions) - some related java classes - some related COM objects - a DTD - a set of documents involved in an extended hyperlink group - a topic map - some graphics - some other multimedia resources - etc etc etc etc None of these are more important than all the rest, and none of them has the right to pirate the namespace URI. It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ann at webgeek.com Mon Jun 14 19:44:57 1999 From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) In-Reply-To: <37653BA9.D10C0A6A@w3.org> References: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111614.MAA30348@hesketh.net> Message-ID: At 07:28 PM 6/14/99 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >So, to join a particular working group, a member has to >officially allocate time for the designated participant - typically 20% >of a full time equivalent each - and attendance at weekly hour-long >telcons, and travel and time for quarterly or bimonthly face to face >meetings somewhere on the planet. That cost would not go away, even if >everyone could become a member. And that's a good point to remember. The annual membership fees are just a small portion of the cost to HWG (and other member companies) of participating in W3C activities. For less costly involvement, there are a variety of interest groups which individuals can participate in only via email and/or at other limited cost. Best... Ann --- Author of Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials Buy it Online - http://www.webgeek.com/about.html Coming this summer! --- Mastering XML Founder, WebGeek Communications http://www.webgeek.com Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org Director, HWG Online Education http://www.hwg.org/classes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 14 20:19:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:03 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose > packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related > whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot > of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that > multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't > understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps > we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim To start with, we need a hub document -- RDF would do: A client could download the hub first, then decide what else it needs. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ken_north at csi.com Mon Jun 14 20:22:41 1999 From: ken_north at csi.com (Ken North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Prior art: using metadata over a communications link Message-ID: <008001beb692$bdf23480$0500a8c0@platinum> << The W3C is surveying potential prior art to assess the claims of Patent Number: 5862325. << they rely on the exchange between publishers and subscribers of a file containing metadata (such as an XML file) to set up an active communications link. In PRACTICAL SGML (Kluwer Academic Publishers, 1990), Eric van Herwijnen discusses SGML for Electronic Data Interchange (EDI). In Chapter 13, he discusses EDIFACT and includes a DTD for a standard commercial invoice. The chapter 13 bibliography includes the following paper: B. Robinson, G. Wu, and K. Jeffery. Using SGML for the exchange of the RG2 grant application form. SERC, 1989. ================== Ken North ============================= http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Ken_North ken_north@csi.com 71301.1306@compuserve.com KenNorth@msn.com Ken North Computing 2604B El Camino Real, #351 Carlsbad, CA 92008 =========================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Mon Jun 14 20:24:18 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990614142500.01859260@mail.muzmo.com> At 10:42 AM 6/14/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 12:40 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Murray Maloney wrote: >>There is nothing preventing another spec -- say XML Schema -- from >>leveraging namespace identifiers and adding mechanisms to allow >>resolution of associated resources, is there?. > >Yes. I think it would be completely inadmissable for XML schemas to >try to claim ownership of the resource at the end of the namespace URI. >(Note that RDF kind of does so, which is a grievous error). I think that you may have misunderstood me, so let me try again. I am not suggesting that XML Schema *claim* ownership. I am suggesting that a schema-aware processor is allowed to resolve the URI to an XML Schema, if possible, and use that schema to inform its processing. ... If there is an XML Schema at www.muzmo.com and there isn;t one at w3c, then a namespace-aware processor will work just fine on this document. An XML Schema-aware processor could, additionally, use the schema to validate the document, notwithstanding that is not known to the schema at www.muzmo.com, or even that there is no schema available by resolving the w3.org URI. >Here's why. A schema is an interesting external resource that you >often need to aid in processing an XML resource. But it's just one >of them. You also sometimes need > - a DTD > - stylesheet(s) > - some related java classes or COM objects > - a set of documents involved in an extended hyperlink group > - a topic map > - some graphics > - some other multimedia resources >None of these are more important than all the rest, and none of them >has the right to pirate the namespace URI. Again, I am not talking about claiming ownership. But if I choose to use URIs that resolve to an XML Schema, then a schema-aware processor cannot be forbidden from taking advantage of that. I guess that that would make it fair game for any processor to resolve the URI and test whether or not it returns a document that is interesting to it. It is interesting that some, but not all, of the external resources that you listed share the characteristic of defining 'names' and thus 'namespaces'. The DTD can, of course, be included in the internal or external subset. Other resource types listed above seem unlikely candidates for namespace URIs. For example, while it is certainly legal, it would probably be a bad idea to use the URL that actually resolves to a GIF file. > >It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose >packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related >whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot >of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that >multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't >understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps >we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim > Yes, that is almost certainly true. And, perhaps XML Schemas can leverage the namespaces spec. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jonsmirl at mediaone.net Mon Jun 14 20:25:54 1999 From: jonsmirl at mediaone.net (Jon Smirl) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) References: <199906111603.MAA29611@hesketh.net> <199906111552.LAA28839@hesketh.net> <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111614.MAA30348@hesketh.net> <37653BA9.D10C0A6A@w3.org> Message-ID: <006401beb693$94939420$0201a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> From: Chris Lilley > > Yes, I would like to be able to bring in more people and yes, I know > that there are problems for very small companies, individual > consultants, and so on. Currently I don't see a viable alternative > economic setup, though. > I'm not interested in joining a working group, but I would like to follow the design discussions of the working groups. For example Netscape is doing this via their public newsgroups. Right now I am working on an XML based query language. I'm doing this work in the dark because the last feedback out of the W3C was this page from Nov 15. http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/ Why can't we have read-only access to the discussion group archive at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ql/? This would allow me to keep my code somewhat in alignment with the thoughts of the W3C. Without this access my code is likely to be completely different that the first W3C draft. And when the draft arrives I may choose to ignore it because it will be too much work to bring my code into alignment. Is this really what the W3C is trying to achieve? Jon Smirl jonsmirl@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon Jun 14 20:42:47 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990614144429.0080b9f0@polaris.net> At 10:42 AM 6/14/1999 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose >packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related >whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot >of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that >multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't >understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps >we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim I've been wondering about this. Granted the XLink spec still hasn't calmed down, but this kind of problem seems (to me) to be a good fit for an extended link group solution. And (not that you suggested this) it doesn't seem to be something that requires the mandate of a WG, but rather can be a de-facto informal solution a la SAX(2). Would that work, you think? ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Mon Jun 14 20:42:10 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents Message-ID: <01BEB6A6.6AC58AF0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> David Megginson writes: > Tim Bray writes: > > > It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose > > packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related > > whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot > > of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that > > multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't > > understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps > > we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim > > To start with, we need a hub document -- RDF would do: > > [example snipped] > > A client could download the hub first, then decide what else it needs. You might also look at Simon St. Laurent's XML Processing Description Language (XPDL): http://www.simonstl.com/projects/xpdl/wd052599.html It doesn't do everything Tim mentions, but it's a start. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Mon Jun 14 20:45:05 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: W3C (was Re: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach) In-Reply-To: <006401beb693$94939420$0201a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Jun 1999, Jon Smirl wrote: > Right now I am working on an XML based query language. I'm doing this work > in the dark because the last feedback out of the W3C was this page from Nov > 15. http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/ > > Why can't we have read-only access to the discussion group archive at > http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ql/? This would allow me to keep my > code somewhat in alignment with the thoughts of the W3C. > > Without this access my code is likely to be completely different that the > first W3C draft. And when the draft arrives I may choose to ignore it > because it will be too much work to bring my code into alignment. Is this > really what the W3C is trying to achieve? Here's a leak from behind the iron curtain: don't imagine that everything of interest is happening there. The w3c-ql list, for example, had a flurry of interest after the QL'98 meeting then pretty much dried up since february/march. You're not missing much there... XML-DEV has been far more interesting on the query front in last few months. And rdf-mozilla... (again, public). A lot of the XML folks with W3C-access, for example, make a habit of talking on XML-DEV instead of the Member-only lists. Of course plenty goes on behind /Member/ but (when you don't have access!) it's easy to convince yourself you're missing more than you actually are. Dan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jun 14 20:53:58 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990614115508.0233f190@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:25 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Murray Maloney wrote: >I think that you may have misunderstood me, so let me try again. >I am not suggesting that XML Schema *claim* ownership. > >I am suggesting that a schema-aware processor is allowed to resolve >the URI to an XML Schema, if possible, and use that schema to >inform its processing. I think I understand. And I still think that's a really bad idea, since there are so many other kinds of facilities that might plausibly want to resolve that URL to get something, and I don't think it's useful to create an environment where different types of things are competing for the use of that resource. In an ideal world, one might imagine that content-negotiation could be helpful here - i.e. do a get on the URI and say that you only accept text/xml-sox or some such... but I'm not convinced that media-types are up to handling this job. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jun 14 20:53:59 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990614115134.0233f940@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:21 PM 6/14/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >To start with, we need a hub document -- RDF would do: ... >A client could download the hub first, then decide what else it needs. Or it might be nice to be able to get to the hub from the document. Also, in some cases you might want to inline some of the resources into the hub doc so it all arrives as one package. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 14 21:00:28 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents In-Reply-To: <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990614120102.01428720@library.berkeley.edu> At 02:21 PM 6/14/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Tim Bray writes: > > > It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose > > packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related > > whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There has been a lot > > of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that > > multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't > > understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps > > we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim > >To start with, we need a hub document -- RDF would do: > We are developing something quite like this for a research project at Berkeley (including using a XML hub document), and have been considering whether it's something that we should start trying to get more feedback on and move towards some kind of standards track. The hub describes a hierarchical structure for a document object, and then allows you to associate different digital manifestations (e.g., page images, locations in an SGML transcription file) with nodes in the structural description, and also associate administrative metadata (IP rights, source/provenance, etc.) with the individual manifestations. As the work is mainly oriented towards supporting the library/archival worlds' needs to disseminate digitized primary resources, it may not exactly fit the bill for what you're describing, but you can feel free to have a look and make suggestions. Information on the full project is available at: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/moa2/ Look in particular at the information in the MOA2 Document Type Definition section, including the brief tutorial and DTD. (The DTD on the web site is not the most recent version, but it's not all that different from the current one). Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Mon Jun 14 21:08:47 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990614115508.0233f190@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990614150507.00701cb4@mail.muzmo.com> At 11:55 AM 6/14/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 02:25 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Murray Maloney wrote: >>I think that you may have misunderstood me, so let me try again. >>I am not suggesting that XML Schema *claim* ownership. >> >>I am suggesting that a schema-aware processor is allowed to resolve >>the URI to an XML Schema, if possible, and use that schema to >>inform its processing. > >I think I understand. And I still think that's a really bad idea, >... OK, so we disagree. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Mon Jun 14 21:31:58 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:04 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <01BEB6AD.60A24FC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Murray Maloney wrote: > OK, so we disagree. Actually, quite a few people disagree with using the namespace URI to retrieve the schema, as recent discussions have shown. Unfortunately, although we've assembled a mass of discomfort, none of us has come up with what I would consider an absolute killer technical argument -- that is, one that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it won't work. Perhaps we could turn the tables :) and ask, why is it so important to use the namespace URI to retrieve the schema instead of something else, such as a PI, a special attribute, or the aforementioned hub document? -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at webcriteria.com Mon Jun 14 21:34:27 1999 From: chris at webcriteria.com (Chris Tilt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3.0.32.19990614115508.0233f190@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3765585E.63F83713@webcriteria.com> We built a resolver that worked exactly like this, which returned a manifested resource based on the accept field from the client. It worked pretty well by placing the mime types in order of most to least desired. The client got back a URL, or a URL list (depending on the request) and could select one of them to fetch. This was built for a content management system that handled many kinds of media including broadcast video, audio, and multiple document types. It worked quite well; the hardest problem was getting the java classes to allow setting of the "accept" field! Cheers, Chris Tim Bray wrote: > > At 02:25 PM 6/14/99 -0400, Murray Maloney wrote: >[deleted] > >I am suggesting that a schema-aware processor is allowed to resolve > >the URI to an XML Schema, if possible, and use that schema to > >inform its processing. > [deleted] > In an ideal world, one might imagine that content-negotiation could > be helpful here - i.e. do a get on the URI and say that you only > accept text/xml-sox or some such... but I'm not convinced that media-types > are up to handling this job. -Tim > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Mon Jun 14 22:39:55 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents In-Reply-To: <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: At 14:21 -0400 14/6/99, David Megginson wrote: >Tim Bray writes: > > > It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose > > packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related > > whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. I just want to contribute a non-web example that's a real-world example about to be used by thousands of teachers in the next year. It's an extension of our report-writer technology being shipped in a client application. The OOFILE report writer now has the ability to save a report to a single desktop document and retrieve it for later viewing, printing and (about to be released) editing of content. A report document includes the report layout description as well as all the data included in the report. Issues included: - packaging multiple reports - multiple stylesheets - multiple locally scoped database schema (like many others our RW allows you to combine many reports into one master report, viewable and printable as a single report but with unique page streams) - embedding stylesheets (we handle style and layout in separate areas) - embedding schema (mild extension of the current WG being used) - embedding graphics (not actually shipping yet as the immediate client didn't need it but we will use base64 encoding of blob field types) Wrapping this in multi-part MIME would have complicated the parsing considerably. Using expatpp and the sub-parser model in particular made it fairly straightforward to parse. http://www.highway1.com.au/adsoftware/expatpp.html for the expatpp parser (c++ extension of expat) Samples of report output available at Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 14 23:00:56 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <01BEB6AD.60A24FC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> References: <01BEB6AD.60A24FC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <14181.27655.665422.837540@localhost.localdomain> Ronald Bourret writes: > Actually, quite a few people disagree with using the namespace URI > to retrieve the schema, as recent discussions have > shown. Unfortunately, although we've assembled a mass of > discomfort, none of us has come up with what I would consider an > absolute killer technical argument -- that is, one that proves > beyond a shadow of a doubt that it won't work. Tim Bray has already posted the killer argument -- if we accept that there's a n:n relationship among namespaces and schemas (etc.) that you might want to apply to things from those namespaces, then you cannot model that as a 1:1 association. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jonsmirl at mediaone.net Tue Jun 15 00:07:18 1999 From: jonsmirl at mediaone.net (Jon Smirl) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <018901beb6b2$925795c0$0201a8c0@ne.mediaone.net> Why not start with the HTML enabled email RFC? It already specifies how to encode the message with MIME so that binary data can be attached. It also specifies how to do relative URLs into the MIME package. MIME brings along a lot of good things like encryption and compression. The HTML email group originally had a hub/catalog document and decided it wasn't really needed. Plus it was hard to generate in some cases. Jon Smirl jonsmirl@mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 15 01:25:32 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37658FEC.DA13BB55@pacbell.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > - a stylesheet > - more stylesheets (because of cascading, or because you only > believe in one of the stylesheet religions) > - some related java classes > - some related COM objects > - a DTD > - a set of documents involved in an extended hyperlink group > - a topic map > - some graphics > - some other multimedia resources > - etc etc etc etc Me, I go for the "etc"! Most of those should be overridable ... in an E-Commerce system, there may be a default stylesheet for a purchase order issued by someone else, but my company may prefer to present it differently. And similarly the default classes may be oriented towards purchasers, rather than suppliers -- and if I work for a supplier, the default classes would do the wrong thing. (Touches on the workflow issues someone brought up a while back. Everyone in a workflow system may work with the same data differently.) > It is becoming painfully obvious that we need a general-purpose > packaging mechanism to deliver an arbitrary number of related > whatevers along with a piece of XML payload. There are plenty of such mechanisms around. But tools using any of them seem lacking. > There has been a lot > of discussion about this around the W3C. It may be the case that > multipart-mime provides a general solution for this problem (don't > understand it well enough myself to have an opinion), or perhaps > we need an XML Packaging Language to use for this purpose. -Tim The multipart-related MIME type (RFC 2387) sure seems like it ought to work, at least for cases where one can rely on a single MIME object to do the job, like HTTP or E-Mail. ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2387.txt Multipart-related documents basically let you send a bunch of data as parts of a MIME object and refer to them internally; you might have the first part ... and the second part would be "foo.dtd". Similarly for other resources identified by URI. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 15 01:36:58 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <01BEB6AD.60A24FC0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <3765929D.4392C4D2@pacbell.net> Ronald Bourret wrote: > > Murray Maloney wrote: > > > OK, so we disagree. > > Actually, quite a few people disagree with using the namespace URI to > retrieve the schema, as recent discussions have shown. Unfortunately, > although we've assembled a mass of discomfort, none of us has come up with > what I would consider an absolute killer technical argument -- that is, one > that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it won't work. I think Tim came closest ... but I think that there can be no such "killer" argument, unless it's against the strawman argument that the namespace URI suffices for everything (except poverty, war...). Why? Because that there are simple conventions one can adopt to address such issues. For example, the "Z" schema system could by default resolve a specified URI (defaulting to the relative "z-schema.xml") against the namespace URI. Similarly for any other data that may be desired. Given such an approach, which provides a structure for defaults yet allows them to be overridden, there's no reason the namespace URI can't be one factor used to retrieve schemas and other data. > Perhaps we could > turn the tables :) and ask, why is it so important to use the namespace URI > to retrieve the schema instead of something else, such as a PI, a special > attribute, or the aforementioned hub document? It's a good question. My suspicion is since that it's a lot less error prone to have _one_ place with the default definitions which tie a complex set of interrelated policies together, people think that's naturally the role the _one_ URI for a namespace should take. But again, that one place doesn't need to be the namespace URI; it's just that it is already defined, seems handy, hasn't clearly been placed off-limits ... and no other such place has been defined. I'd probably build on some other sort of integration solution which took advantage of namespaces (like XSL stylesheets -- CSS doesn't!) but used namespace URIs as seemingly designed: for unique tokens. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue Jun 15 01:56:11 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF724@RED-MSG-08> Indeed, namespaces and schemas are distinct concepts. For example, RDF defines a namespace containing among other things all the natural numbers (1, 2, 3 etc.). This is clearly not a schema. However, that does not preclude having certain namespaces that are identified by a schema, meaning that every item in the namespace is in the schema and that the schema exactly declares the list of items in the namespace. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 15 06:16:26 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents Message-ID: <004501beb6de$3a5d2390$4ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson >To start with, we need a hub document -- RDF would do: I floated a proposal for this a month ago: see http://www.ascc.net/~ricko/drlove.htm "DrLove: Document Resource Locations (On Valid Elements)". A general purpose mechanism would be so useful for many kinds of bundling: it would allow a Macitosh like resource fork (Mac files are divided into two parts: data and resource forks). This would allow bundling of icons and many other neat things. There are many things that belong to processing documents, but perhaps not the document itself: hyphenation dictionaries, etc. It would be best to be able to download these on demand, not all at once. (RDF or XLink could be used. DrLove uses RDF like Dave's suggestion.) There are a couple of internationalization issues that are not really solvable without such a mechanism (in particular, representation of non-standard or newly-standardized characters). Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 15 06:34:15 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > More specifically, top-down can work only with very, very good models, > and even I (who am known to shoot my mouth off) would not go so far as > to claim that I can produce a sufficiently accurate and complete model > of the Web over the next five years; in the absence of such a model, > bottom-up development and the free market of ideas is the only > reasonable choice, messy as it may be. I don't think I can produce *the* data model that will be used over the Web for the next five years. I think that I can produce *a* data model that would be demonstrably better than the complete lack of such. The existence of the quasi-standardized "ESIS" model did not interfere with the later creation of the much more powerful "grove" model any more than the existence of HTML somehow prevented the later invention of XML. You can change your mind in data models just as you can in language syntaxes. There is no threshhold you cross and can never cross back. In fact, I have long believed that data models and syntaxes work beautifully together because a standardized syntax allows you to shift around your data model without breaking some things (i.e. communication lines) and a standardized data model allows you to shift around your syntax without breaking other things (i.e back-end processing). standardized-data-models-are-about-the-freedom-to-change-your-mind 'ly yrs, Paul Prescod xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 15 06:43:56 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <007301beb6e2$00f939f0$4ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Ronald Bourret >Murray Maloney wrote: > >> OK, so we disagree. > >Actually, quite a few people disagree with using the namespace URI to >retrieve the schema, as recent discussions have shown. Unfortunately, >although we've assembled a mass of discomfort, none of us has come up with >what I would consider an absolute killer technical argument -- that is, one >that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that it won't work. I don't think "it won't work" is a good enough criterion. There are many things that work that have undesirable ramifications: works. Of course namespace URLs can point to anything: namespaces do not use the resource. But forcing the namespace URL point to a schema has bad side effects. This is what my online article "How to Promote Organic Plurality on the WWW" is about. See http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/monolith.html My argument is that the WWW has succeeded because it (networking, TCP/IP, HTTP/MIME) is based on allowing plurality and organic development (i.e., market forces in a non-monetary market). It is not enough to have layers, there also needs to be a mechanism preceding each layer to allow alternatives. This view is supports Tim's argument. It is OK if some namespace URLs point to schemas. But it is not OK for any system to take over the namespace declaration and make it serve as a schema declaration. The namespace declarations should mean what the spec says and nothing more. Dave Brownell's post was good on this. Murray is not saying "Why can't the URL resource be a schema?" but "Why cannot we overload the namespace declaration to be the XML schema declaration?". * The first reason is because we need to support plurality, so any overloading should allow a multuplicity of content-negotiated schemas not just XML Schemas; * the second reason is because such overloading should be at best considered a defaulting mechanism in the absense of a specific schema declaration, and there is as yet no specific declaration mechanism for schemas; * the third reason is because it you then need markup to say "the namespace mechanism is overloaded" which then in effect makes namespaces not universal names but names-in-a-particular-schema-in-a-particular-schema-language; * the fourth reason is given in the note mentioned: it goes against the way other parts of the WWW have been designed and works against the public interest: it allows "data kidnap" and "workflow kidnap". Rick Jelliffe Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Tue Jun 15 09:14:56 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: XML Document to ascii text file In-Reply-To: References: <01BEB1AC.718315A0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: At 99/06/08 14:17 -0400, Didier PH Martin wrote: >Can you explain how with just a simple example. Let's say the XML document >is: > > > > This is the title > > >One upon a time... > > >How would you transform this XML document above into a plain asci text? Can >you show it with a XSL script? A set of "plain ASCII text" semantics has been implemented in XT under the namespace URI "java:com.jclark.xsl.sax.NXMLOutputHandler". Using this set of semantics I have created XSL scripts that generate MSDOS batch files and other text files. These semantics provide for emitting characters such as "&" and "<" in a clear form (very helpful when writing batch files with input redirection). It also gives control over the emitted character encoding so that single-character accented letters can be output without having them be two-character UTF-8 encodings. For these reasons, I feel James' NXML meets a need not met just by using a text subset of an output XML file. For example, using your document above I have a session below that attempts to illustrate what can be done. James has some documentation in his http://www.jclark.com/xml/xt.html file. It happens this is also covered briefly with another example in a chapter of my XSL training material included in my free preview excerpt (the first three chapters) available from our web site ... it is a free excerpt of: Introduction to XSLT (XSL Transformations) Third Edition - 1999-06-08 - ISBN 1-894049-00-4 Copyright (C) 1999 Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ 205 Pages / $40.00 US dollars / Includes free updates I have received requests to add more detail to the documentation for this non-XML (NXML) environment, so that will be made available in a future edition (all future editions are available at no charge to all existing customers). I hope this helps. .............. Ken T:\didier>type test.xml This is the title One upon a time... T:\didier>type test.xsl TITLE T:\didier>call xsl test.xml test.xsl test.txt T:\didier>type test.txt <<>> This is the title One upon a time... T:\didier> -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services outline, XSL/DSSSL shareware, stylesheet resource library, conference training schedule, commercial stylesheet training materials, on-line XSL CBT. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Tue Jun 15 10:38:13 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: ANN: SAXON 4.3 (XSL interpreter and compiler) Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEF3@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> SAXON 4.3 is available for download on http://home.iclweb.com/icl2/mhkay/saxon.html The new version has been upgraded so both the XSL interpreter and compiler now conform (very nearly) to the April 21 W3C XSLT specification. I tried this time to concentrate on conforming to the spec and avoiding the temptation to innovate, but in the end I couldn't resist adding an assignment statement for variables and a while loop. To the functional programming enthusiasts, I apologise (you don't have to use them); to everyone else, I hope it will make your life a little easier. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 15 13:53:12 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3765C618.B2C79D23@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Remember the big experiments in top-down, centralized economic > planning in the 1960s, '70s, and '80s? Our grandchildren may still be > paying off the debts from that one. Before I am further labelled a communist or Reaganomicist I want to point out that I didn't mean to imply that the rule of thumb for all development should always be "design everything first and then implement everything when every detail has been figured out." You have to bring design in at some point and Simon and I have both (separately) pointed out that the W3C tends much more often to bring it in much later than it should. I'm not confident about his complaint about formatting models because I seem to remember a "joint commission" on the W3C formatting model being developed a long time ago. The problem in that case may be more W3C secrecy instead of W3C disorganization. I do know what my own complaint is though: Various Web specifications allow you to talk to "things" and to associate properties with "things." None of them define "thing." Therefore it is completely unclear what things we are talking about and associating properties with. It is impossible to know all of the properties associated with a thing or whether two properties talk about the same thing. Now if there was a good reason for the definition of "thing" to be widly varying (and not, say, based on twenty years of object oriented programming, 10 years of HyTime practice, 30 years of file system research and many years of distributed systems research) then I would accept that we should arrive at bottom-up solutions to this tricky problem before attempting a top-down one. Put it this way: governments must manage economies whether they want to or not. They control the cash. Similarly, the W3C controls the definitions of what things mean on the Web. They cannot both make specifications and also choose to leave their interpretation up to readers. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "Silence," wrote Melville, "is the only Voice of God." The assertion, like its subject, cuts both ways, negating and affirming, implying both absence and presence, offering us a choice; it's a line that the Society of American Atheists could put on its letterhead and the Society of Friends could silently endorse while waiting to be moved by the spirit to speak. - Listening for Silence by Mark Slouka, Apr. 1999, Harper's xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 15 15:54:05 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? In-Reply-To: <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > > More specifically, top-down can work only with very, very good models, > > and even I (who am known to shoot my mouth off) would not go so far as > > to claim that I can produce a sufficiently accurate and complete model > > of the Web over the next five years; in the absence of such a model, > > bottom-up development and the free market of ideas is the only > > reasonable choice, messy as it may be. > > I don't think I can produce *the* data model that will be used over the > Web for the next five years. I think that I can produce *a* data model > that would be demonstrably better than the complete lack of such. That's not what I mean -- creating a data model is tractable, but a data model is of questionable value if it's not based on a fairly accurate business model, use cases, etc. I don't think that any of us can reasonably draw up a reliable business model that will cover the Web for the next five years, and even the use cases will be pretty shakey. Without good models, bottom-up is our best bet. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pgrosso at arbortext.com Tue Jun 15 16:42:11 1999 From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: tech doc ML (TDML?) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990615095209.00fa165c@pophost.arbortext.com> At 12:15 1999 06 14 +0200, Ronald Bourret wrote: >You can find the DTD that the W3C uses to write specs at: > >http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-report-19980910.htm > >(I assume this is the current version, but don't actually know that for sure.) > The following is the latest public version: DTD: http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-19990205.dtd Documentation: http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/06/xmlspec-report-19990205.htm There is likely to be a newer version within the next couple weeks. Note that the XML 1.0 spec was written to a much older version and may not necessarily parse against this DTD. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue Jun 15 19:23:39 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:05 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF732@RED-MSG-08> Recent mail has suggested that a namespace URI could be used to attempt a retrieval of a schema, either using the URI directly or in some modified form or via content negotiation. Other recent mail has objected, saying that there may be a miriad of things one wants to associate in some way with a namespace, for example a suggested (or mandatory?) style sheet to process all elements and attributes defined in that namespace. I suggest that there is a vast difference between something such as a schema, which creates identifiers and gives them a definition, and other resources such as style sheets that may be permanently or ephemerally associated with those identifiers. One defines the data; the other indicates processing. If we follow the principle of cleanly separating data from its processing, we want firm ties to the definition of data, and loose ties to its processing. This argues that the first position is correct, namely that using a namespace URI to retrieve a schema is reasonable and is different in kind from retrieval of other possibly-related resources. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 15 20:02:24 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF732@RED-MSG-08> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF732@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <14182.37936.938967.550979@localhost.localdomain> Andrew Layman writes: > I suggest that there is a vast difference between something such as > a schema, which creates identifiers and gives them a definition, > and other resources such as style sheets that may be permanently or > ephemerally associated with those identifiers. One defines the > data; the other indicates processing. I find the distinction much less clear -- a pure schema is a specification for producing a truth value; a schema that adds information (such as default attribute values in a DTD) is a specification for producing a transformation and a truth value; a stylesheet is a specification for producing visual or aural (or perhaps, tactile) output. They certainly seem like the same general kind of thing, at least to my eyes. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue Jun 15 20:05:35 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF734@RED-MSG-08> I would like to add my endorsement to W. Eliot Kimber's mail of 1999-06-01T021:53 titled "Re: Just require URLs" and which is apparently not in the archives. I'd like to add a parenthetical comment that I believe supports the thrust of his argument: Eliot wrote "If the true intent of the namespace mechanism is that the URI *is* the namespace (in the sense defined above), then they have to *disallow* resolution of the URI..." Of course, specifications are not people, so do not have intent literally, but as one of the two editors of the specification I can speak for my intent in the wording of the specification: The URI identifies the namespace. That is, the specification very clearly does not require that a URI be resolvable, but neither does it forbid resolution. The URI is an identifier; what other characteristics it may have are not part of the namespaces specification, including whether it is resolvable directly or can be used as part of process that ultimately resolves to a resource. Best wishes, Andrew Layman xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue Jun 15 20:54:39 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <01a201beb75f$89dbeba0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Andrew Layman wrote: >Recent mail has suggested that a namespace URI could be used to attempt a >retrieval of a schema, either using the URI directly or in some modified >form or via content negotiation. Other recent mail has objected, saying ... > >This argues that the first position is correct, namely that using a >namespace URI to retrieve a schema is reasonable and is different in kind >from retrieval of other possibly-related resources. > It is true that schema definition being akin to class definition has a unique position in the document grove. Yet so does a namespace and overloading the mechanism by which a schema is attached to a document onto the mechanism by which a namespace is attached to an element yields difficult problems. The essential difference is that the namespace is defined by the URI whereas the schema is not defined by the URI rather the contents of the resolved URI. How might this create a problem? Suppose I have a document with a schema at a particular URI resolved by the "http" protocol e.g. http://www.microsoft.com/schemas/x.scm now suppose I wish to e-mail this document behind a firewall, or place the document into a database... behind the firewall, the "http://" protocol is blocked due to corporate policy. Similarly if decades or centuries pass, the data within the database remains valid but the http://www.microsoft.com address has become inactive. The namespace remains the same. The schema is unavailable. Suppose I solve this problem by encapsulating the XML document in a multipart/related MIME message, placing the schema at a location labeled "Content-ID: schema". Now the schema is accessed via the URL "cid:schema", all is good, we can resolve the URL ... but the namespace changes! This problem could be solved by use of a PI to declare the schema <?xml-schema href="URL" ?>. Gateway software would thus be able to encapsulate and transmit XML documents by different network protocols, keeping such protocols independent of the document namespace. All that need change in the document is a PI. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net (for now :-) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Tue Jun 15 21:01:01 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990615120100.01196c70@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:24 AM 6/15/99 -0700, Andrew Layman wrote: >I suggest that there is a vast difference between something such as a >schema, which creates identifiers and gives them a definition, and other >resources such as style sheets that may be permanently or ephemerally >associated with those identifiers. One defines the data; the other >indicates processing. ... >This argues that the first position is correct, namely that using a >namespace URI to retrieve a schema is reasonable and is different in kind >from retrieval of other possibly-related resources. We disagree, but that's not very helpful because it seems mostly to be a matter of of opinion/religion. I suspect that in the future data-driven Web, the *first* thing I'm going to want when I get a chunk of XML is the java classes or COM objects to do something useful with it, the second thing is a stylesheet, the third thing is a different stylesheet, and the schema is way down the list somewhere. Because I think schemas are mostly useful in the context of data *creation*, and in many apps we want data to be consumed many more times than it is produced. But that's just me. What I am reasonably sure of, though, that for any one of these things (stylesheets, schemas, code, etc), there is going to be some user community for whom that item is the single thing they need, and will want to use the namespace URI to get it, and they will have trouble seeing why the schema should be primus inter pares. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Jun 15 21:32:52 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] Message-ID: <3766AAD4.CFBC7797@locke.ccil.org> -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Andrew Layman <andrewl@microsoft.com> Subject: RE: Just require URLs Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:30:53 -0700 Size: 2770 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990615/9edd2c67/attachment.eml From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue Jun 15 22:14:54 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF73F@RED-MSG-08> Jonathan Borden's recent mail correctly points out that use of a URL as a URI identifying a schema has some potential problems arising from the fact that the "http:" scheme identifies a protocol, one that may not always work. I agree. However, this is distinct from the issue of whether a URI identifying a namespace may properly be used in retrieval of a schema. It simply means that the URL form of URI has some known difficulties. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue Jun 15 22:39:05 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF745@RED-MSG-08> Re Steven Livingstone's question on XML DR: XML Data Reduced Schemas are supported in Internet Explorer 5.0. I know of only two currently-shipping parsers that support it: Microsoft's and Data Channels. The W3C XML Activity has a working group looking into the design of a new schema language. XML-Data was one of several submissions that may influence the deliberations. It is too early to predict details. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s.livingstone at btinternet.com Wed Jun 16 00:24:30 1999 From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: X-Schema In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF745@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <NDBBLGFONPGHMKMHFALIAEHHCAAA.s.livingstone@btinternet.com> I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are a lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's and it makes a lot more sense to validate XML using an XML-based schema... I guess I shall stick to DTD's for the time-being. Another Question - Is it true that MS shall release an XML add-on to IE4 to allow further features ?? [see this months MIND article]??? What shall this provide... steven -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Andrew Layman Sent: 15 June 1999 21:40 To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema Re Steven Livingstone's question on XML DR: XML Data Reduced Schemas are supported in Internet Explorer 5.0. I know of only two currently-shipping parsers that support it: Microsoft's and Data Channels. The W3C XML Activity has a working group looking into the design of a new schema language. XML-Data was one of several submissions that may influence the deliberations. It is too early to predict details. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed Jun 16 01:34:32 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF74D@RED-MSG-08> I don't know anything about an add-in for IE4. I'll forward the question to the MSXML team. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Livingstone [mailto:s.livingstone@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 3:27 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are a lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's and it makes a lot more sense to validate XML using an XML-based schema... I guess I shall stick to DTD's for the time-being. Another Question - Is it true that MS shall release an XML add-on to IE4 to allow further features ?? [see this months MIND article]??? What shall this provide... steven -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Andrew Layman Sent: 15 June 1999 21:40 To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema Re Steven Livingstone's question on XML DR: XML Data Reduced Schemas are supported in Internet Explorer 5.0. I know of only two currently-shipping parsers that support it: Microsoft's and Data Channels. The W3C XML Activity has a working group looking into the design of a new schema language. XML-Data was one of several submissions that may influence the deliberations. It is too early to predict details. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From clovett at microsoft.com Wed Jun 16 01:45:10 1999 From: clovett at microsoft.com (Chris Lovett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:06 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C0F362E1B@RED-MSG-56> we do have a version of MSXML.DLL with XML-Data Schema support available for IE4. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/tools/xmlparser/xmlparser.asp This is the IE5 XML DLL -- but a few browser specific things do not work in IE4 - like the XML Viewer. The above pages list the details. -----Original Message----- From: Andrew Layman Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 4:36 PM To: 'Steven Livingstone'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema I don't know anything about an add-in for IE4. I'll forward the question to the MSXML team. -----Original Message----- From: Steven Livingstone [mailto:s.livingstone@btinternet.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 3:27 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are a lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's and it makes a lot more sense to validate XML using an XML-based schema... I guess I shall stick to DTD's for the time-being. Another Question - Is it true that MS shall release an XML add-on to IE4 to allow further features ?? [see this months MIND article]??? What shall this provide... steven -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Andrew Layman Sent: 15 June 1999 21:40 To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: X-Schema Re Steven Livingstone's question on XML DR: XML Data Reduced Schemas are supported in Internet Explorer 5.0. I know of only two currently-shipping parsers that support it: Microsoft's and Data Channels. The W3C XML Activity has a working group looking into the design of a new schema language. XML-Data was one of several submissions that may influence the deliberations. It is too early to predict details. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elham at cs.stanford.edu Wed Jun 16 03:17:24 1999 From: elham at cs.stanford.edu (Elham Ghassemzadeh) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes Message-ID: <v04011701b38cabf65d82@[171.66.194.178]> Is there a way to display the value attributes using style sheets? For example what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the following example? <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> Thanks for your help Elham -- Elham Ghassemzadeh Stanford University elham@cs.stanford.edu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Jun 16 03:39:37 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <002101beb791$5f7cade0$0cf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Andrew Layman <andrewl@microsoft.com> >If we follow the principle of cleanly separating data from its processing, >we want firm ties to the definition of data, and loose ties to its >processing. A schema is "processing" not "data": it is tied to whatever applications understand the schema format. Editing, creating and validating against a schema are all applications. There is no schema language yet that can express all useful constraints. To propose a mechanism that does not allow a plurality of schemas is, in fact, to say that the schema language should defines the (bounds of the) possible schemas: if XML-Data does not support a constraint, it cannot be part of schemas. This is putting the cart before the horse. It is not that the namespace URI identifies a schema that it is the problem, it is : * the notion that a document has only *one* schema and * there is no mechanism yet to allow alternative schemas to be assigned. If W3C made a mechanism to allow alternative schemas (like Jonathon Bordon's recent post), then the namespace URI could be overloaded to provide a schema, as a defaulting behaviour in the absense of a PI. But it is bad for the WWW if there is no mechanism to allow alternatives; without such a mechanism, requiring overloaded use of the namespace URL is bad. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Wed Jun 16 05:45:26 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF73F@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990615233550.00750b18@mail.muzmo.com> At 01:15 PM 6/15/99 -0700, Andrew Layman wrote: >Jonathan Borden's recent mail correctly points out that use of a URL as a >URI identifying a schema has some potential problems arising from the fact >that the "http:" scheme identifies a protocol, one that may not always work. >I agree. However, this is distinct from the issue of whether a URI >identifying a namespace may properly be used in retrieval of a schema. It >simply means that the URL form of URI has some known difficulties. Which is a good reason to use URNs or some other form of persistent identifier. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Wed Jun 16 05:45:37 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <002101beb791$5f7cade0$0cf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990615234807.00fd1828@mail.muzmo.com> At 10:44 AM 6/16/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >A schema is "processing" not "data": it is tied to whatever applications >understand the schema format. Editing, creating and validating against a >schema are all applications. Well. Maybe meta-data, but a schema is simply declarative. It does not perform any processing. Editing, creating and validating are all applications. So what? The point is that a schema actually defines some aspect of the meaning of 'names' in a 'namespace'. That seems useful. >There is no schema language yet that can express all useful constraints. >To propose a mechanism that does not allow a plurality of schemas is, in >fact, to say that the schema language should defines the (bounds of the) >possible schemas: if XML-Data does not support a constraint, it cannot >be part of schemas. This is putting the cart before the horse. Using the namespace URI to be locate a schema does not preclude the possibility of there being any number of schemas associated with that URI. > >It is not that the namespace URI identifies a schema that it is the >problem, it is : > >* the notion that a document has only *one* schema and >* there is no mechanism yet to allow alternative schemas to be assigned. Nobody is proposing that a document has only *one* schema. The mechanism is known in the biz as 'content negotiation'. This is known to work for multiple languages and devices. > >If W3C made a mechanism to allow alternative schemas (like Jonathon >Bordon's recent post), then the namespace URI could be overloaded to >provide a schema, as a defaulting behaviour in the absense of a PI. But >it is bad for the WWW if there is no mechanism to allow alternatives; >without such a mechanism, requiring overloaded use of the namespace URL >is bad. As I said, there is such a mechanism. Regards, Murray ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Wed Jun 16 05:45:16 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF734@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990615233133.00f4137c@mail.muzmo.com> This is certainly how I feel about it. Dave Hollander seems to agree -- we are at the XML Schema meeting in Ann Arbor. At 11:06 AM 6/15/99 -0700, Andrew Layman wrote: >I would like to add my endorsement to W. Eliot Kimber's mail of >1999-06-01T021:53 titled "Re: Just require URLs" and which is apparently not >in the archives. > >I'd like to add a parenthetical comment that I believe supports the thrust >of his argument: Eliot wrote "If the true intent of the namespace mechanism >is that the URI *is* the namespace (in the sense defined above), then they >have to *disallow* resolution of the URI..." Of course, specifications are >not people, so do not have intent literally, but as one of the two editors >of the specification I can speak for my intent in the wording of the >specification: The URI identifies the namespace. That is, the specification >very clearly does not require that a URI be resolvable, but neither does it >forbid resolution. The URI is an identifier; what other characteristics it >may have are not part of the namespaces specification, including whether it >is resolvable directly or can be used as part of process that ultimately >resolves to a resource. > >Best wishes, >Andrew Layman > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Wed Jun 16 10:43:55 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes In-Reply-To: <v04011701b38cabf65d82@[171.66.194.178]> Message-ID: <002201beb7d4$64199320$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > Is there a way to display the value attributes using style sheets? Yes. For > example what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the > following example? > > <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> With CSS you can use the :before and :after rules, and specify in the content property that it should display the attribute value of an attribute named ID (my terminology may not be per the spec but hope you understand). Here is a sample: PRODUCT:before { content: attr(ID); } Note that not all products support CSS well enough to understand this. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:35:12 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: X-Schema References: <NDBBLGFONPGHMKMHFALIAEHHCAAA.s.livingstone@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <37678E25.22F131D8@prescod.net> Steven Livingstone wrote: > > I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are a > lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's I would be curious to hear your opinion on why XML-syntax schemas are so much easier. My observation is that XML Data Reduce Schemas are only easier than DTDs for the first week at which point they become harder to read, to understand and to maintain. They are, however, easier to parse. My inclination is to write off the claims that XML-syntax schemas are so much easier as merely bias against the syntactically unfamiliar, similar to parentheses and whitespace paranoia. At the end of a day of training (brainwashing) my students usually say: "Why would I spend twenty lines of XML syntax saying what a DTD can say in one line?" I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I would like to hear counter-arguments. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:35:08 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] References: <3766AAD4.CFBC7797@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37680879.6353DCD2@prescod.net> Eliot Kimber says: > > If the true intent of the namespace mechanism is that the URI *is* the > namespace (in the sense defined above), then they have to *disallow* > resolution of the URI, otherwise, you cannot reliably establish > namespace identity because two different URIs could identify the same > resource. AND Andrew Layman wrote: > > The point of the wording was to respect that multiple URIs may reference the > same resource, Do either of you have evidence that the Web addressing model supports this assertion? As near as I can tell the Web has no concept of resource identity except that every URI identifies a unique object. An HTTP server could serve up the same byte stream at two different addresses but as far as the Web is concerned those are two different objects. This defies intuition but seems to be the "web model." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:44:06 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376792AE.2C82DE20@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > That's not what I mean -- creating a data model is tractable, but a > data model is of questionable value if it's not based on a fairly > accurate business model, use cases, etc. I do not see why a data model has any higher requirement for business models, use cases and so forth than a language like HTML, XLink or XML namespaces. In fact, I would argue that those languages always have an implicit data model reflecting implicit use cases and business models. We can make the data model explicit without making the use models explicit. Isn't that essentially what the information set is doing? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:44:04 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] References: <3766AAD4.CFBC7797@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <376808C8.C38003D2@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > Two distiinct URIs might in fact identify the same namespace, Tim Bray has been quite clear that it is his opinion that namespace URIs *do not identify namespaces* in the sense of "identify" used in the URI specification. According to him they are just strings that happen conveniently to be unique and globally managed. This difference between you on this issue is alarming. > but within the facilities of the namespaces specification they would not be > known to do so. The namespaces specification defines the *concept* of XML namespaces. Therefore if it does not have a provision for two URIs pointing to the same "namespace" then there can be no such provision without an amendment or superceding specification -- unless we accept that general Web concepts of "equality" and "URI" apply -- In which case "http://" URIs are self-evidently bogus AND illegal because the namespace that they point to is "missing." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:45:12 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF734@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <37680936.E37FAD8@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > >.... > I can speak for my intent in the wording of the > specification: The URI identifies the namespace. That is, the specification > very clearly does not require that a URI be resolvable, but neither does it > forbid resolution. I want to be clear on this. Given the following definitions: * namespace processor: a tool that has no other purpose than to present the data model implicit in the namespace specification to applications in a legal manner * URI resource equality: a concept endorsed by the IETF in the future that allows to URIs to point to the same logical object * URI equivalence: multiple URIs pointing to the same resource Would it be legal, in your opinion, for a namespace processor to substitute an equivalent URI for the supplied one in presenting the namespace information to the application, just as it might substitute an equivalent prefix? In my opinion the answer to this question should be the same as the answer to the "relative URI" question. I haven't heard a clear answer to that one yet. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:51:11 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] References: <3766AAD4.CFBC7797@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37677C5D.82CB7C79@prescod.net> Eliot Kimber says: > > If the true intent of the namespace mechanism is that the URI *is* the > namespace (in the sense defined above), then they have to *disallow* > resolution of the URI, otherwise, you cannot reliably establish > namespace identity because two different URIs could identify the same > resource. AND Andrew Layman wrote: > > The point of the wording was to respect that multiple URIs may reference the > same resource, Do either of you have evidence that the Web addressing model supports this assertion? As near as I can tell the Web has no concept of resource identity except that every URI identifies a unique object. An HTTP server could serve up the same byte stream at two different addresses but as far as the Web is concerned those are two different objects. This defies intuition but seems to be the "web model." -- Paul Prescod [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:51:43 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: X-Schema References: <NDBBLGFONPGHMKMHFALIAEHHCAAA.s.livingstone@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <37678E25.22F131D8@prescod.net> Steven Livingstone wrote: > > I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are a > lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's I would be curious to hear your opinion on why XML-syntax schemas are so much easier. My observation is that XML Data Reduce Schemas are only easier than DTDs for the first week at which point they become harder to read, to understand and to maintain. They are, however, easier to parse. My inclination is to write off the claims that XML-syntax schemas are so much easier as merely bias against the syntactically unfamiliar, similar to parentheses and whitespace paranoia. At the end of a day of training (brainwashing) my students usually say: "Why would I spend twenty lines of XML syntax saying what a DTD can say in one line?" I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I would like to hear counter-arguments. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because X-Mozilla-Status: 0009 garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:55:44 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:07 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37677C57.315E5210@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > >Note that there is also widespread dissatisfaction with namespaces, RDF, > >XLink and XML itself. > > Apart from Ted Nelson's excellent "Embedded Markup Considered Harmful", I > haven't seen much claiming that XML is a danger to the semantic Web the W3C > seems interested in building. I think that most people agree that being able to hide intellectual property behind a semantic firewall is a Good Thing. We are, after all, mostly capitalists and tend to think that short of ethics concerns, independent actors should be able to control how their intellectual property is distributed. If they want to dumb down their data then they should have that right, right? Why should the W3C get in their way? I want to address your concern that this goes against the grain of the "semantic Web". There is only a conflict if you think that the semantic web is about all information being freely available in its most semantic form. My interpretation was always that the semantic web was about some information being richly semantic and free ("yellow pages online"), some being richly semantic and expensive (e.g. the company database behind the yellow pages), some being presentational and free ("Joe's Web Pag") and some being presentational and expensive ("Paul Abdul's latest video"). In other words I always interpreted it as being about choice. You complain that XSL allows this choice. Even if it were the case that XSL uniquely allowed data dumbing (which it is not), I could not see how its allowance of this choice would constitute a problem or flaw. Data dumbing is part of the economy and ecology of the Web. As Guy Murphy has described, the Web is richer for it. Do we want Lexis-Nexis to take their thousands of databases back to their private network where they controlled the level of semantics tightly? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:56:06 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Transformation versus annotation References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37677C4E.930AE7AC@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > The problem, fundamentally, is that XSL FOs are an element vocabulary, > while CSS properties lived inside attributes or style sheets, without > disrupting the original element names. XSL FOs do not disrupt the "original" element type names. They still exist in the original document that was the source of the transformation. > See above. Transformations to an endpoint that still had as much semantics > as the original - formatting properties represented as attributes rather > than elements - might have avoided lots of the 'considered harmful' issues > that you want to ignore. I think inclusion and sequence are the only large > problems such an approach presents, and I don't think they're insoluble. They are insoluable. The whole point of transformations: whether XSLT or DOM is that they are *arbitrarily sophisticated*. That means that I can have a very loose binding between markup and presentation. That means that I can invest in my expensive information assets without worrying about the presentational technologies of the day. I have DTDs with elements that are processed with rules like: "go to the REF sub-element's HREF attribute, dereference it and check whether the target is a class-name or an instructor-name. If the former, extract the ISO 8869 DATE attribute and format it according to this format rule: '%month% %day%, %year%'. If it is the latter, then dereference each of the "TEACHES" anchors and fetch the ISO 8869 DATE attribute from the element targets. Concatenate them with spaces and output them." Do you propose that after 15 years of failure we now have the ability to make style languages in the annotation model that can solve the many common (common!) problems of this sort? If you can write such a language, please do so and let me invest in your company. Something with the simplicity of CSS and the power of XSL is the holy grail of stylesheet inventors. You could build a killer XML editor around it. Adobe would pay millions for it. I, personally, think that is impossible not just practically but even in theory. --- Unworkable solution 1: "Do it server side." * But I want to ship rich semantic data to the client! That's the point of the semantic web! Unworkable solution 2: "Use the DOM" * The DOM could accomplish this task but in doing so it would be essentially a transformation language and thus exhibit all of the flaws that you complain about (generating a second tree with less semantic information). Unworkable solution 3: "Don't do it." * But my clients have terabytes of complex, intricate semantic information that they WANT to make available over the Web (usually for a price). Don't we need that data to build the semantic web? Given that client-side transformations are the least of all possible evils in this case, the question boils down to whether to use the DOM or XSL. We've had that debate already. It boils down to a question of style. (sorry!) -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:30 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Packaging and hub documents References: <3.0.32.19990614104158.02340a30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14181.18060.445731.712967@localhost.localdomain> <v04205105b38b17337ea2@[192.168.0.1]> Message-ID: <37677C47.BE001CD1@prescod.net> Andy Dent wrote: > > Wrapping this in multi-part MIME would have complicated the parsing > considerably. Why couldn't you have just used a generic MIME parser to parse at one level and pipe discovered entities to Expat? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:34 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] References: <3766AAD4.CFBC7797@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37677C50.2119E279@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > Two distiinct URIs might in fact identify the same namespace, Tim Bray has been quite clear that it is his opinion that namespace URIs *do not identify namespaces* in the sense of "identify" used in the URI specification. According to him they are just strings that happen conveniently to be unique and globally managed. This difference between you on this issue is alarming. > but within the facilities of the namespaces specification they would not be > known to do so. The namespaces specification defines the *concept* of XML namespaces. Therefore if it does not have a provision for two URIs pointing to the same "namespace" then there can be no such provision without an amendment or superceding specification -- unless we accept that general Web concepts of "equality" and "URI" apply -- In which case "http://" URIs are self-evidently bogus AND illegal because the namespace that they point to is "missing." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:39 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376792AE.2C82DE20@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > That's not what I mean -- creating a data model is tractable, but a > data model is of questionable value if it's not based on a fairly > accurate business model, use cases, etc. I do not see why a data model has any higher requirement for business models, use cases and so forth than a language like HTML, XLink or XML namespaces. In fact, I would argue that those languages always have an implicit data model reflecting implicit use cases and business models. We can make the data model explicit without making the use models explicit. Isn't that essentially what the information set is doing? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself htX-Mozilla-Status: 0009/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:43 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF732@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <37677C4F.A3FBB0E3@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > I suggest that there is a vast difference between something such as a > schema, which creates identifiers and gives them a definition, and other > resources such as style sheets that may be permanently or ephemerally > associated with those identifiers. One defines the data; the other > indicates processing. It seems to me to be entirely debatable whether a schema defines element and attribute types or whether it just constrains their use. My personal take is that the schema merely contrains use. Consider that I have a document that is an HTML document. Is the most important feature of the P elements in the document that they are globally known as "HTML paragraphs" (their semantics) or the details of the element type declaration in the DTD? If I swap in another variant of the HTML DTD with another set of element type declarations have I completely changed the nature of those element types? If I have a CDF document without a DTD or schema would it be accurate to say that those element types are "undefined"? Or merely not defined in a manner that would allow a computer to check validity using a standardized schema language? If I have two schemas for a document, in two different schema languages, must one be the "definitive" schema and the other non-definitive? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:49 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37677C4D.EE569E1E@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > CSS+XML doesn't allow them to post semantic markup? (CSS by itself doesn't > let you post _anything_, so I don't know what you're talking about. HTML?) When you sit down to implement an XML system the last thing you think about is CSS, XSL, or the DOM. The first thing you think about is the needs of the data. If you have any volume of textual data, you will probably not get another opportunity to re-encode all of it until CSS and XSL are historical artifacts, Microsoft is a division of Red Hat, and the Web has more users than the telephone. So you *must* concentrate on the needs of the data. You must make richly semantic markup that captures the structure of the data. And you must have human authors start to add this semantic markup to the data as soon as possible. You must minimize the cost of this markup effort. Having done this process right, for a sophisticated document type, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to display your documents directly using CSS. Graphics will cause a problem. Cross references will cause a severe problem. Navigational mechanisms will be lacking...and so forth. Therefore you cannot just stick the XML file and a CSS stylesheet on your website. You must dumb down the XML somehow -- to HTML or to some weakly semantic variant that has redundant cross reference text, redundant navigational mechanisms, HTML-compatible IMG tags and so forth. Without some client-side transformational mechanism (either XSL or the DOM), CSS *discourages* the distribution of rich semantic information because it requires you to dumb down your data. > The question is not whether FO's harmfulness is solvable, it's whether it's > an acceptable cost. I see it as a cost that wouldn't have been incurred > had we stuck to annotation for formatting - while you could strip semantics > to SPAN and DIV if you really wanted, the whole selector mechanism of > Cascading Style Sheets discourages such practice. It would have taken an > extra level of processing to do that stripping. As I described above, CSS requires the "extra level of processing" anyhow. The difference is that XSL and the DOM allow that extra level of processing to be *client side*, which means that the client is working with rich data. Without transformation languages, CSS requires the dumbing down to be *server side*. This isn't an argument against CSS. It's an argument FOR transformation languages (used, sometimes, in concert with CSS). > In this case, 20/20 hindsight for the XSL community is an "I told you so" > for the CSS community. Take a look at the early battles on XSL-list and > you'll see that I'm saying nothing original here - these arguments were on > the list before I even subscribed. Doesn't it seem like our responsibility > to learn from the lessons of _one_ year ago rather than racking up the same > kinds of problems again and again? A year ago the XSL specification was explicit in its goal of achieving compatibility with CSS. It referred explicitly and directly to CSS properties. There was a separate working group formed to develop a cross-language formatting model. As far as I can see, the FO model and the CSS model are very close. I certainly hope so: I will soon be teaching FOs by teaching CSS first! -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 16 12:57:51 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Just require URLs References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF734@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <37677C5E.849F1A41@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > >.... > I can speak for my intent in the wording of the > specification: The URI identifies the namespace. That is, the specification > very clearly does not require that a URI be resolvable, but neither does it > forbid resolution. I want to be clear on this. Given the following definitions: * namespace processor: a tool that has no other purpose than to present the data model implicit in the namespace specification to applications in a legal manner * URI resource equality: a concept endorsed by the IETF in the future that allows to URIs to point to the same logical object * URI equivalence: multiple URIs pointing to the same resource Would it be legal, in your opinion, for a namespace processor to substitute an equivalent URI for the supplied one in presenting the namespace information to the application, just as it might substitute an equivalent prefix? In my opinion the answer to this question should be the same as the answer to the "relative URI" question. I haven't heard a clear answer to that one yet. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Wed Jun 16 13:17:07 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488531AEA99@SENMAIL3> I am relatively new to using the data schema's, but I immediately found them much more aligned to the XML documents I was creating. Don't get me wrong, neither are particulary difficult to use, but I like the idea of describing all XML using an XML-based language. For example, the chances are you shall write a lot more XML documents than you will DTD/Schema for validation. I find it a lot easier to read Schema validation than DTD. Of course there is also the lack of typed attributes etc.. in DTD's. Further down the line (and please correct me if I wrong)... ...would having an XML-based schema not give you the potential to create schema from schema ?? So if you had something which require specific validation using subsets of other validation schema, you could produce it by combining parts from the two (dare I say using some equivalent to XSL) ?? Could you do this with DTD's ? Rgds, Steven Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Prescod [SMTP:paul@prescod.net] > Sent: 16 June 1999 12:45 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: X-Schema > > Steven Livingstone wrote: > > > > I for one hope that the final version is close to the XML DR as they are > a > > lot more intuitive and easier to use than DTD's > > I would be curious to hear your opinion on why XML-syntax schemas are so > much easier. > > My observation is that XML Data Reduce Schemas are only easier than DTDs > for the first week at which point they become harder to read, to > understand and to maintain. They are, however, easier to parse. My > inclination is to write off the claims that XML-syntax schemas are so much > easier as merely bias against the syntactically unfamiliar, similar to > parentheses and whitespace paranoia. At the end of a day of training > (brainwashing) my students usually say: "Why would I spend twenty lines of > XML syntax saying what a DTD can say in one line?" > > I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I would > like to hear counter-arguments. > > -- > Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself > http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco > > [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] > Annie: "It's so clean down here." > Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make > it into television shows." > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Wed Jun 16 13:23:20 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488531AEA9C@SENMAIL3> You could use something like this ... <xsl:for-each select="PRODUCT [@ID]"> <B><xsl:value-of /></B><BR/> </xsl:for-each> steven Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Elham Ghassemzadeh [SMTP:elham@cs.stanford.edu] > Sent: 16 June 1999 02:20 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: CSS and XML attributes > > Is there a way to display the value attributes using style sheets? For > example what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the > following example? > > <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> > > Thanks for your help > Elham > -- > Elham Ghassemzadeh > Stanford University > elham@cs.stanford.edu > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Jun 16 13:23:10 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D054C28@sohos002.ied-support.net> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > A schema is "processing" not "data": it is tied to whatever > applications > understand the schema format. Editing, creating and > validating against a > schema are all applications. I can't understand how the idea that schemas operate at the same level as Java classes and stylesheets has been introduced into this discussion. As far as I can see, one point of the schema proposal is to be functionally equivalent to a DTD with a few obvious advantages, one of these being that if we get the definition right, each node can specify its own schema. This makes the dynamic creation of documents that are made up of other documents a much more straightforward task (for example, as occurs in fragment interchange and transclusion), and, IMO, impossible without it. However, the fact that the schema can at its simplest play the role of the DTD means that it is used by the parser, not just the application. I use the terms here in the logical sense implied by XML 1.0; the parser will check the document for well-formedness and possibly validate it, the application will then make use of the document. So "editing, creating and validating against a schema" are NOT all applications - validating happens at a lower level. To look at it a different way, DTDs can also be used to write tools that edit and create documents but that does not detract from their fundamental role in the validation of documents. In other words, they are most definitely NOT on the same level as stylesheets, Java classes, or whatever. I think the problem we have is that validation is a special case of the use of namespaces. In normal circumstances you would validate the document and then pass it on for processing, and the processing application would make use of any namespaces present, as it wants. In other words there is a clear separation as to exactly where namespaces play a role. However, to allow documents to have a mixture of schemas (in the sense of DTD substitutes) we need to use namespaces to indicate which schema should be used. In other words, there needs to be some way of saying which namespace corresponds to which schema. Namespaces are therefore already playing a role at the level of parsing. This is incidentally why I don't PIs could be used for this, as some have suggested, since according to XML 1.0, PIs are passed through the parser to applications. But by then it's too late - we need the schema for validation. [IMHO I would even suggest it is more 'intuitive' anyway, to use the namespace attribute. Remember the original namespace debate that raged on this list? Everyone thought that namespaces WERE validation! It just seemed so ... well ... intuitive.] Regards, Mark Birbeck Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net http://www.iedigital.net/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 16 14:25:12 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: X-Schema In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF745@RED-MSG-08> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF745@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <14183.38747.468980.993580@localhost.localdomain> Andrew Layman writes: > The W3C XML Activity has a working group looking into the design of > a new schema language. XML-Data was one of several submissions > that may influence the deliberations. It is too early to predict > details. It's probably too early to predict what the final form of XML Schemas will look like, but there is already a public working draft available (the first covers structure, and the second covers data typing): http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/ http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/ All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Wed Jun 16 14:26:35 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Practical XML Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488531AEAA6@SENMAIL3> I am developing a XML Web project based on cinemas thoughout Glasgow, Scotland. Now, I am going to use XML client-side (maybe server-side) to mark up the info (so we can compare prices/film types etc..). What is the better way to store the data : 1. All cinema's in one XML file 2. An XML file per cinema 3. Store cinema details as text in DB and mark them up and they are retrieved 4. Store marked-up data in DB Also, say I have 1000 cinemas stored in seperate XML files (because I asked each conema to enter their detalis and send the file to me) and someone wanted to do a search on these - how should this be done? I am using SQL Server 7, ASP,VB 6 and IIS4 (maybe 5)., but I would be interested in *all* ideas. thanks steven Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Jun 16 14:29:39 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D054C29@sohos002.ied-support.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > At the end of a day of training (brainwashing) my students > usually say: "Why would I spend twenty lines of XML syntax > saying what a DTD can say in one line?" > > I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, > however, so I would like to hear counter-arguments. I think ultimately it is because it is XML. You now have a document that can be parsed and processed with the same tools that you use for all your other documents. This makes a number of things a lot easier. For example, it is surely theoretically possible to create an XSLT document from two schema, that converts a document of type A to one of type B. This could be done with a series of XSLT files. Also, as other XML techniques become standardised, XML-based schema automatically 'inherit' them. For example, when we have got a working approach to transclusion with XLinks, I could include your schema inside my schema. With XPointer I might even just include a small part of your schema. Of course some of these things could be carried out with DTDs - the transformation and including other DTDs - but they are done with techniques that only exist for DTDs, and no other realm of XML. For me, though, the main problem with DTDs is not their syntax, but the difficulty in validating a document that is based on two or more DTDs. With the mechanism as it stands you need to create a third schema which is the amalgam of both schemas, but this is impractical for most real world uses. Imagine that I include a link in a document to my profile, which is an XLink and is to be transcluded. This means that the parser needs to know the type of my profile after including it, so that it can validate it. But what if I change my profile from a boring load of text to a video, but the XLink remains the same? The DTD containing the link to the profile would need to have the video and text DTDs already there, which is impractical if new schemas for profiles are continually added. With the current XML-Data approach, I can define the schema to be used on a per-node basis, so including a node also includes the information needed to validate it. Anyway, if I may give my humble pointer to the future, manual generation of this stuff is not going to be around for long. As I have mentioned in previous discussions, I have devised a simple system whereby a hierarchical database functions as a massive XML document, and nodes and their children can be extracted as needed. I'm sure many others have done this, so this is not a great claim, however, this has now been extended so that the schemas that define this document and all its sub-documents can also be extracted at any level. This means that you only actually extract the amount of schema you need for the document being exported, and it makes schema very easy to maintain (you just have to maintain the database). So, to illustrate the point, I have 'objects' of type article which can contain objects of type paragraph. When I export an article I place on the article node a pointer to the article schema. All the latter does is pull out schema information for the article and all its children. However, if asked to export just a paragraph of text from an article, I attach to that node a pointer to the paragraph schema. Why pass any more? The validater doesn't need it. Regards, Mark Birbeck Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net http://www.iedigital.net/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 16 14:30:26 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990615234807.00fd1828@mail.muzmo.com> References: <002101beb791$5f7cade0$0cf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> <3.0.1.32.19990615234807.00fd1828@mail.muzmo.com> Message-ID: <14183.39133.879693.727504@localhost.localdomain> Murray Maloney writes: > Well. Maybe meta-data, but a schema is simply declarative. > It does not perform any processing. Editing, creating and > validating are all applications. So what? Schemas and stylesheets are both declarative, and both include information that can be acted on by processors. In the case of a schema, the result is a truth value (valid/not valid) and, optionally, a transformation (supplying default values, etc.); in the case of a stylesheet, the result is a transformation or rendition. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 16 14:32:40 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:08 2004 Subject: X-Schema In-Reply-To: <37678E25.22F131D8@prescod.net> References: <NDBBLGFONPGHMKMHFALIAEHHCAAA.s.livingstone@btinternet.com> <37678E25.22F131D8@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14183.39278.309361.452638@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I > would like to hear counter-arguments. In my opinion, the best counter argument is that you can include structured documentation as part of the schema itself. In a DTD, an awful lot of useful information is stashed away in comments, and has to be copied into documentation using cut-and-paste. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 16 14:36:21 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? In-Reply-To: <376792AE.2C82DE20@prescod.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> <376792AE.2C82DE20@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14183.39487.992533.773762@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > I do not see why a data model has any higher requirement for > business models, use cases and so forth than a language like HTML, > XLink or XML namespaces. In fact, I would argue that those > languages always have an implicit data model reflecting implicit > use cases and business models. We can make the data model explicit > without making the use models explicit. Isn't that essentially > what the information set is doing? I am quite comfortable helping to design a data model for XML, because XML *as a language* is a closed system; I am not (yet) comfortable helping to design a data model for the Web in general. Perhaps we have been misunderstanding each-other. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Jun 16 14:46:31 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <01BEB807.0420E8A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> The nice thing about using the URI to find (as opposed to to point to) the schema is that it's an easily defended argument. "Oh, yes," you say. "We don't really prohibit you from doing other things with the namespace URI. We don't even violate its sanctity. We just use it as a unique identifier in the identification process." But if it doesn't point to the schema directly, how is any generic piece of software ever going to use it in the identification process? A Universal URI-To-Schema Resolver strikes me as rather less likely than a universal public identifier resolver. I mean, how many parsers today can resolve public identifiers to DTDs? Can you imagine how far XML would have gotten if the only way to associate a DTD with a document was through a public identifier? My apologies for the sarcasm, but although I find the use of namespace URIs to find schemas a wonderful theoretical idea, I'm having more than a little trouble seeing how it could possibly work in practice. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 16 15:45:28 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: <3761821C.4446F61B@pacbell.net> References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <3761821C.4446F61B@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <14183.43186.446308.624682@localhost.localdomain> David Brownell writes: > - I think the "validation" property should be immutable during > parses; nonvalidating parses will generally discard data > that a validating parse requires. Agreed. > - Why shouldn't declaration and lexical handlers be set "at any > time" during a parse, like the SAX1 handlers? Is this the case with SAX1, or is it simply underspecified? > - When I implemented reporting of entity expansion for Sun last > fall, I ran into a problem case that hasn't been addressed in > the SAX2 draft. Namely, entities in attributes ... consider > > <element attr="&entity;"/> > > will generally get reported as > > startEntity ("entity"); > endEntity ("entity"); > startElement ("element", {"attr", value-of-entity, ...} ...); > endElement ("element"); > > which doesn't really make sense. Sun's parser deals with this > issue by not reporting such entity expansions. It's not clear > to me how SAX2 will deal with the issue. I'm either to live with the status quo or to back out and scrap reporting of entity boundaries altogether -- this is getting far too complicated for far too little real reward. > - There's a similar issue with expanding parameter entities: > > <!ATTLIST element > %common-attrs; > %i18n-attrs; > %optional-attrs; > attr NOTATION ( %notation-set-1; ) "fubar" > > > > And so on with conditional sections and other declarations; Sun's > parser deals with that issue by not reporting parameter entity > expansions through those reporting callbacks. Ditto. > Issues with what's NOT in the draft API, and where the lack is IMHO a > notable API completeness issue for a "core" in SAX2: > > - Information re NOTATION attributes is discarded. In the example > above, the attributeDecl() callback discards the list of which > notations are permitted. Suggested fix: update the API. Sun's > API doesn't discard this info, others are also possible. Agreed -- this needs to be fixed somehow. > - The internal DTD subset isn't available. This means one can't > reproduce the <!DOCTYPE...> declaration; some applications have > convinnced me that they absolutely require that capability. > Suggested fix: as above, update the API (look at Sun's for one > solution known to work). The internal subset is available, indirectly -- it consists of everything between the start/endDTD events outside of any start/endEntity events. > - The SAX1 handlers aren't "gettable" in the way the SAX2 ones are. > Suggested fix: just define handler IDs for them. That's a good idea. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed Jun 16 16:13:32 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF07@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > From: Elham Ghassemzadeh [mailto:elham@cs.stanford.edu] > what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the > following example? > > <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> <xsl:value-of select="@ID"/> But please read the spec before trying it. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Jun 16 16:25:10 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: [Fwd: Just require URLs] Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D054C2B@sohos002.ied-support.net> Paul - interesting as your comments are, why are you sending them all twice? Is it just me seeing double? Is the list server up the spout and everyone is seeing double, or is there an echo somewhere? Best regards, Mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From akwheel at talos.org Wed Jun 16 16:24:58 1999 From: akwheel at talos.org (Andrew Wheeler) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's Message-ID: <11AF09C0F118D311B6F200805F71B1BEBA7F@tardis> Hello, I am currently working for client that has developed a data model and is using an XML DTD to describe it. We are using Near and Far to develop the DTD, but require textual definitions for each of the elements and attributes. These textual definitons, a Data Element Dictionary, is required to help developers understand the model (as well as us!). In Near and Far, and other tools I have seen, you only have the option to insert a comment, at the element level, not really to describe in great detail attributes, and their potential values, etc. We would like to produce the DTD without comments for applications, and some other output that would document the hierarchical structure of the DTD but with added bonus of clicking on a element and getting a description for it (We do not really want to spend time writing bespoke code, which we have to maintain). Could somebody please indicate what tools they use to do this job, other than Near and Far. I am looking for a tool that is fully supported, and is not somebodies backyard hack (no offence to all that fit into that category, but my cleint will only buy tools that they feel comfortable with). I have looked on Robin Cover's site, as well as XMLSOFTWARE, but the same tools just seem to crop up all the time. Somebody out there must be having the same problem, or is everybody using this small set of tools? Or am I asking too much? Sorry if many people have asked this question a hundred times before but this is my last resort. Regards Andrew xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From swamis at wipsys.stph.net Wed Jun 16 16:29:55 1999 From: swamis at wipsys.stph.net (Puppala Satyanarayana S) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990616200312.007a9430@192.168.150.100> This might be a basic question to you. But its really a big problem for me. I just started learning xml. I wrote a xml document which is valid(I mean i have a DTD for it). I wrote a XSL file for this xml document.Now i tried to view the xml file in IE5 browser. But , only the source code of the document was displayed, even the tags were displayed. Whether there is any problem with IE5. The IE5 i downloaded was a Beta version. Is there any other in which i can view my xml document? Can anyone help me? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From north at Synopsys.COM Wed Jun 16 16:39:05 1999 From: north at Synopsys.COM (Simon North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's In-Reply-To: <11AF09C0F118D311B6F200805F71B1BEBA7F@tardis> Message-ID: <199906161440.QAA02766@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com> Andrew Wheeler asked about tools for adding textual definitions to a DTD ... Andrew, I use Earl Hood's DTD2HTML Perl package. It allows you to create a navigable set of HTML pages from the DTD. Each element and each attribute gets its own page, and they can all be cross-linked to a semi-graphical tree. The nicest thing about this 'tool' is that the 'documentation' is contained in a separate file that is read in when you create the HTML code. This keeps the DTD 'clean' (avoiding adding comments) and allows you to incrementally improve the documentation without starting from scratch every time. Perl of course has been around for years, DTD2HTML has been stable for about 4 years, it's all public domain but certainly not a "backyard hack". I hope it's what you're looking for, it's certainly been more than useful to me. Simon North Simon J North BA(Hons) Eng Tech(CEI) FISTC ARAeS TMIEIE MIPRE Senior Staff Technical Writer, Synopsys GmbH, Herzogenrath, Germany xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Wed Jun 16 17:05:40 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19A9@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kay Michael [SMTP:Michael.Kay@icl.com] > > > From: Elham Ghassemzadeh [mailto:elham@cs.stanford.edu] > > what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the > > following example? > > > > <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> > > <xsl:value-of select="@ID"/> > > But please read the spec before trying it. > Please read the subject line before replying with an XSL solution. :) Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu Wed Jun 16 17:05:07 1999 From: jgardner at blue.weeg.uiowa.edu (JR Gardner) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's In-Reply-To: <199906161440.QAA02766@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com> Message-ID: <Pine.A41.3.95.990616100545.23320C-100000@black.weeg.uiowa.edu> On Wed, 16 Jun 1999, Simon North wrote: > Andrew Wheeler asked about tools for adding textual definitions to > a DTD ... > > Andrew, I use Earl Hood's DTD2HTML Perl package. It allows you > to create a navigable set of HTML pages from the DTD. Each > element and each attribute gets its own page, and they can all be Another option is EZDTD, anther shareware which gives the option of XML, SGML, or HTML (with comments) output of the DTD. It's nice, slim in size, and does the job also. J.R. Gardner, Ph.D. Obermann Center for Advanced Studies xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Wed Jun 16 17:02:39 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:09 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF3F@cc20exch2.mobility.com> David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] writes: > Paul Prescod writes: > > > I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I > > would like to hear counter-arguments. > > In my opinion, the best counter argument is that you can include > structured documentation as part of the schema itself. In a DTD, an > awful lot of useful information is stashed away in comments, and has > to be copied into documentation using cut-and-paste. > > > All the best, > > > David If I could throw in a point which is scarily reminiscent of the DOM+CSS vs. XSLT and XSL-FO debate, I'm a little worried that we're inventing two languages which do exactly the same thing. Or rather, we've <em>got</em> one language, and we're inventing <em>another one</em> to do the same thing. Now in most cases, having multiple languages is a Very Good Thing. (e.g. I happen to love C++, but use Visual Basic almost exclusively for what I do. And I'm itching to use more Java, so I will when I get the chance.) However, in this case, when Schemas become a recommendation are all XML parsers going to have to know how to validate against DTDs as well as Schemas? Are we going to have some parsers that only understand DTDs and some that only understand Schemas? Are DTDs going to become obsoleted, if Schemas can do everything they can do and more? If so, what happens to all of the existing XML documents with DTDs? Do we re-write them? Don't get me wrong, I happen to like Schemas much better than DTDs, and the data typing alone makes them a better choice for many things. I'm just wondering if we wouldn't be better off adding the extra functionality to DTDs, instead of creating a new language. Are there technical reasons why we can't? (Does it have something to do with SGML compatibility? If so I'd be willing to shut up right now. :-) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 16 17:20:34 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <37677C4D.EE569E1E@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >Having done this process right, for a sophisticated document type, it is >highly unlikely that you will be able to display your documents directly >using CSS. Graphics will cause a problem. Cross references will cause a >severe problem. Navigational mechanisms will be lacking...and so forth. > >Therefore you cannot just stick the XML file and a CSS stylesheet on your >website. You must dumb down the XML somehow -- to HTML or to some weakly >semantic variant that has redundant cross reference text, redundant >navigational mechanisms, HTML-compatible IMG tags and so forth. > >Without some client-side transformational mechanism (either XSL or the >DOM), CSS *discourages* the distribution of rich semantic information >because it requires you to dumb down your data. I'm afraid - in my opinion at least - that this is a gross underestimation of the capabilities of CSS. While CSS does not at present provide an easy way to display graphics, this is: a) easy to add b) dependent on XLink, which is thus far a no-show. Navigational mechanisms and cross references have similar dependencies on XLink, but I see no reason why they should cause 'severe problems'. It's not there yet, mostly because XLink isn't there yet, but these are hardly significant barriers. If you want, we can put this part of the discussion back on www-style, and see what people come up with. Unlike formatting objects, I think this is quite solvable. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 16 17:24:13 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <37677C57.315E5210@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >In other words I always interpreted it as being about choice. You complain >that XSL allows this choice. Even if it were the case that XSL uniquely >allowed data dumbing (which it is not), I could not see how its allowance >of this choice would constitute a problem or flaw. Data dumbing is part of >the economy and ecology of the Web. As Guy Murphy has described, the Web >is richer for it. Do we want Lexis-Nexis to take their thousands of >databases back to their private network where they controlled the level of >semantics tightly? I'm afraid we'll have to accept the value of this 'choice' as a fundamental disagreement. I feel strongly that by encouraging this choice, and by providing a vocabulary that is even more formatting-oriented than HTML, XSL encourages a greater level of server-side dumbing down than was available before, and makes it easier. I can't see this as a positive move in any light, and no, I don't see the 'semantic firewall' as a positive thing for the Web. But then, I do see the Web from a rather different perspective than Lexis-Nexis. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Jun 16 17:33:17 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <01BEB81E.5619E5A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> David Hunter wrote: > I'm just > wondering if we wouldn't be better off adding the extra functionality to > DTDs, instead of creating a new language. Are there technical reasons why > we can't? (Does it have something to do with SGML compatibility? If so I'd > be willing to shut up right now. :-) There are certainly no technical barriers to enhancing DTDs. As you point out, though, SGML compatibility is a barrier. Mostly it's always struck me as a matter of practicality: there are very few DTD writers and readers compared to the number of document writers and readers. Hence, the market is most likely to lean towards documents, not DTDs. If we redefine/extend DTDs as documents (i.e. schemas), we get to use all the document technology and tools for free. If we work solely on DTDs, we have to reinvent everything ourselves: SAX for DTDs, DOM for DTDs, XSLT for DTDs, editors for DTDs, etc. As to DTDs becoming obsolete, I view this as very unlikely to occur any time soon. More likely are two things: 1) Parsers that can translate between DTDs and schemas on the fly so that it becomes unimportant whether a document has one or the other, and 2) Separate modules that can validate documents against a schema for use in environments where the parser either can't validate or can't validate against a DTD. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 16 17:32:19 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes References: <002201beb7d4$64199320$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> Message-ID: <3767C407.1E7E6291@pacbell.net> Heikki Toivonen wrote: > > > what do I write in my style sheet to display product id in the > > following example? > > > > <PRODUCT ID="C07981"> .... </PRODUCT> > > With CSS you can use the :before and :after rules, and specify in the > content property that it should display the attribute value of an attribute > named ID (my terminology may not be per the spec but hope you understand). > > Here is a sample: > > PRODUCT:before { > content: attr(ID); > } > > Note that not all products support CSS well enough to understand this. FYI those transformations are from CSS2, not CSS1 ... CSS2 is less well supported, and basically should be until vendors first handle all of CSS1. http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html Followup puzzler: Suppose I want the output of this to embed attribute values in some particular location, rather than put it before (or after) the other content associated with that particular element. Can that be done with CSS1 or CSS2 ? (I know it can be done with XSL-T!) - Dae xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 16 17:44:40 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: Transformation versus annotation In-Reply-To: <37677C4E.930AE7AC@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906161546.LAA23440@hesketh.net> At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >XSL FOs do not disrupt the "original" element type names. They still exist >in the original document that was the source of the transformation. The result, however, looks nothing like the original. >> See above. Transformations to an endpoint that still had as much semantics >> as the original - formatting properties represented as attributes rather >> than elements - might have avoided lots of the 'considered harmful' issues >> that you want to ignore. I think inclusion and sequence are the only large >> problems such an approach presents, and I don't think they're insoluble. > >They are insoluable. The whole point of transformations: whether XSLT or >DOM is that they are *arbitrarily sophisticated*. That means that I can >have a very loose binding between markup and presentation. That means that >I can invest in my expensive information assets without worrying about the >presentational technologies of the day. I'm not convinced that arbitrarily sophisticated is required by the vast majority of cases - and I'm definitely not convinced that inclusion and sequence in particular are insoluble. We already have a tool - DOM+Scripting - that is capable of providing arbitrarily sophisticated transformations, and document composition (rather than transformation per se) addresses many needs that are remarkably complex while allowing developers to use the frameworks of their choice. >Do you propose that after 15 years of failure we now have the ability to >make style languages in the annotation model that can solve the many >common (common!) problems of this sort? What follows is a remarkably negative message. Your underestimation of the capabilities of CSS (expressed in a previous message) is severe, your willingness to declare problems insoluble is remarkable. Perhaps it's just that you've admitted that: >Nobody solved the FOs considered harmful problems because they are >*insoluable*. and you now have to declare a wide variety of alternatives insoluble. Annotation by itself may not be up to every task, but annotation with a minimal level of transformation (starting even with :before and :after, which we already have) seems capable of addressing the vast majority of tasks. It's not a matter of reinventing everything; it's more a matter of finding solvable issues and fixing them. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 16 17:57:07 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3767C9B0.B37D5E56@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > > > >Without some client-side transformational mechanism (either XSL or the > >DOM), CSS *discourages* the distribution of rich semantic information > >because it requires you to dumb down your data. > > I'm afraid - in my opinion at least - that this is a gross underestimation > of the capabilities of CSS. While CSS does not at present provide an easy > way to display graphics, ... Graphics weren't even a point I heard there. Here are two concrete examples: - Just seen on this list ... data found in attribute values must often be displayed. If you stick to CSS1, you must often dumb down the data so that it can be displayed. CSS2 gives you an option to dumb down the display to present such values before or after the element to which they're attached; but there's no way to access "inherited" attributes, to embed them in more semantically appropriate places. - Using either version of CSS, all the context-based linking needs to be dumbed down by making it all be explicit, since CSS only deals with explicit content. One of the basic roles of transformation is to make the implicit become explicit: links that are created by the structure of the data. or groupings of similar data. Headings join a TOC, index entries are indexed, figures and tables are listed, and so on. Yes, it's true that CSS alone doesn't let you handle what the HTML "<img src='...'/>" and "<a href='...'>...</a>" elements do ... or "<table>" (till CSS2 happens) and others. But even for content that doesn't require those sorts of presentation, you can see the "dumbing down" effect when you transform the content from "semantic markup" to "XML that CSS can render". - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 16 18:20:14 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > >In other words I always interpreted it as being about choice. You complain > >that XSL allows this choice. Even if it were the case that XSL uniquely > >allowed data dumbing (which it is not), I could not see how its allowance > >of this choice would constitute a problem or flaw. Data dumbing is part of > >the economy and ecology of the Web. As Guy Murphy has described, the Web > >is richer for it. Do we want Lexis-Nexis to take their thousands of > >databases back to their private network where they controlled the level of > >semantics tightly? > > I'm afraid we'll have to accept the value of this 'choice' as a fundamental > disagreement. I feel strongly that by encouraging this choice, and by > providing a vocabulary that is even more formatting-oriented than HTML, XSL > encourages a greater level of server-side dumbing down than was available > before, and makes it easier. I can't see this as a positive move in any > light, I can, quite easily. I give examples below. And one more: you appear to be assuming that the client actually has enough horsepower and information to do the transformation (or for the FO side of the argument, formatting) ... those are known to be false assumptions in many cases. A PDA with a typical speed IR link (not measured in megabits), slow CPU, and small fixed size storage just doesn't have that kind of resources. For many set-top boxes, ditto. > and no, I don't see the 'semantic firewall' as a positive thing for > the Web. Hmm ... do you see them as issues in other contexts? Information is transformed routinely, every day. Frankly, I don't want to to be getting a complete history of everyone's life every time I deal with them; I'm happier to work with the current context (far smaller!). That sort of time/history based "semantic firewall" is very useful, for all that it's subject to abuse by all parties. There are others; if I browse a product description, rarely will I want complete technical specs, and if I do then I'll ask for them. I may want my technical books at a different level than someone else. Those are examples of transformations reducing the information that's presented. There are other transformations that can increase it; perhaps I want to look at a particular seller's history on an auction system before I buy from them, and not otherwise. If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Wed Jun 16 18:18:30 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: X-Schema concerns In-Reply-To: <01BEB81E.5619E5A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <006201beb814$5502dbe0$f5f6b5cf@evans.dnai.com> The latest arguments regarding the usefulness of XML schema languages versus DTDs are the most interesting. I have long used what are sometimes called 'reflective' object models, where the 'meta-data' can be thought of as a specialization of 'data'. This unified approach in my experience is more than a conceptual nicety, it provides long term implementation advantages. A single model for creation, storage, queries, fetches, modification, browsing, editing, translating, etc means that your large scale mature system is simpler to understand and has much less implementation code in it. For instance, the reflective system I have most recently constructed, has a browsing tool, where with only one tree view model, can browse through meta-data and data 'boundaries'. This unified approach, I find, pays off immediately in very practical terms. So while programming languages have long had a 'programming' language to handle meta-data constructs and a 'run-time' environment to handle data constructs, this separation is in fact an implementation choice, to support higher performance static executables. XML is not currently, and may never be, a high performance static approach, so why not enjoy the benefits? I heartily vote for moving quickly on getting meta-data into normal XML format and moving away from DTD's. On the other hand, I have major concerns regarding the current the XML-SCHEMA efforts. It reminds me a little of SQL3, where the spec has the 'kitchen sink' feel to it. This is for understandable and hard to resist reasons, but none the less a little scary. XML is or soon will be, the synthesis of the document and data modeling worlds. However the current efforts seem to me at least to be highly skewed towards document expertise, and the data modeling expertise is not as evident. I believe that the data modeling world, having to live in the rough and tumble of high performance large scale reliable delivered systems (object and relational environments/servers), has schema that are much less ambitious than the document world. I personally would start with a much simpler XML schema, implement carefully, live with the constraints, and slowly learn what is *required*, as opposed to what is conceptually interesting or complete. I have never seen a system that is that complex start serving a useful purpose quickly. cheers, erik xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 16 18:22:34 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <3767C9B0.B37D5E56@pacbell.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906161624.MAA25061@hesketh.net> At 08:58 AM 6/16/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >Yes, it's true that CSS alone doesn't let you handle what >the HTML "<img src='...'/>" and "<a href='...'>...</a>" elements >do ... or "<table>" (till CSS2 happens) and others. But even >for content that doesn't require those sorts of presentation, >you can see the "dumbing down" effect when you transform the >content from "semantic markup" to "XML that CSS can render". To some extent, you're right, and I've acknowledged that CSS could use some _simple_ transformative mechanisms (plus support from XLink) to accomplish some of these tasks, or you could just use the DOM+Scripting, which I think is a reasonable approach to these kinds of problems. However, I think a fundamental point that both you and Paul are missing here is that even _if_ you have to reorganize your document so that CSS can display it easily, the impact of that 'dumbing down' is much less dramatic than the impact of transformation to formatting objects or XSL. It's a smaller project that creates less dramatic problems. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 16 18:29:56 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906161631.MAA25356@hesketh.net> At 09:21 AM 6/16/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >And one more: you appear to be assuming that the client actually >has enough horsepower and information to do the transformation (or >for the FO side of the argument, formatting) ... those are known >to be false assumptions in many cases. A PDA with a typical speed >IR link (not measured in megabits), slow CPU, and small fixed size >storage just doesn't have that kind of resources. For many set-top >boxes, ditto. Maybe it's just that I'm at JavaOne, where Sun and 3Com keep talking about what you can do with Java on a Pilot, but I see the bandwidth as more of a problem than the processing power. It might well make sense to create some kind of PDA middleware that slims down content before shipping it to the PDA, but that seems more a matter of consumer-oriented content-negotiation than producer-determined semantic firewalling. >Hmm ... do you see them as issues in other contexts? Information >is transformed routinely, every day. Frankly, I don't want to to be >getting a complete history of everyone's life every time I deal with >them; I'm happier to work with the current context (far smaller!). >That sort of time/history based "semantic firewall" is very useful, >for all that it's subject to abuse by all parties. > >There are others; if I browse a product description, rarely will I >want complete technical specs, and if I do then I'll ask for them. >I may want my technical books at a different level than someone else. > >Those are examples of transformations reducing the information >that's presented. There are other transformations that can increase >it; perhaps I want to look at a particular seller's history on an >auction system before I buy from them, and not otherwise. > >If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at >the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". In all of these cases, I have a very simple question: do you want to be able to choose the level of semantic information you receive, or do you want that to be determined by your provider? I have no object to intelligent content-negotiation. I do have a problem with handing content producers new tools for creating dumbed-down content with XML, the very language that was supposed to improve the level of information quality on the Web. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 16 18:38:11 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3767D367.3652F792@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > Hmm ... do you see them as issues in other contexts? Information > is transformed routinely, every day. Frankly, I don't want to to be > getting a complete history of everyone's life every time I deal with > them; I'm happier to work with the current context (far smaller!). > That sort of time/history based "semantic firewall" is very useful, > for all that it's subject to abuse by all parties. [other examples snipped] > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". There is a fundamental difference between providing a multiplicity of views and creating a semantic firewall. Providing source and binary is a multiplicity of views. Providing binary only is a firewall. Providing source only is not a firewall, because compilers are freely available (free speech, not free beer). Providing hard copy and soft copy is a multiplicity. Providing hard copy only is a firewall. Providing HTML rather than XML, or PDF rather than HTML, are firewalls. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 16 18:49:33 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:10 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990616164745Z-83211@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> John Cowan wrote, > Providing source and binary is a multiplicity of > views. Providing binary only is a firewall. > Providing source only is not a firewall, because > compilers are freely available (free speech, not free > beer). > > Providing hard copy and soft copy is a multiplicity. > Providing hard copy only is a firewall. > > Providing HTML rather than XML, or PDF rather than > HTML, are firewalls. This analogy is actually quite dangerous to your position. Typists are freely available (free speech, not free beer). As long as the semantic info is available (hardcopy or HTML crud) it can be transcribed. Copyright/IP problems? Presumably ditto for unauthorized use of information presented in a machine accessible way. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 16 19:03:12 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990616164745Z-83211@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> Message-ID: <3767D93E.8D2AA607@locke.ccil.org> Miles Sabin wrote: > This analogy is actually quite dangerous to your > position. Typists are freely available (free speech, > not free beer). As long as the semantic info is > available (hardcopy or HTML crud) it can be > transcribed. Typists can regenerate the surface form, but not the lost semantic markup. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 16 19:20:02 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990616171749Z-83228@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> John Cowan wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote: > > This analogy is actually quite dangerous to your > > position. Typists are freely available (free speech, > > not free beer). As long as the semantic info is > > available (hardcopy or HTML crud) it can be > > transcribed. > > Typists can regenerate the surface form, but not the > lost semantic markup. Are you sure about that? Granted they _might_ not be able to restore the semantic markup that was placed there by the originator (tho' I think they might well be able to infer a lot of it in many cases: remember they're people not machines). But in any case, do we necessarily _care_ about the originators markup? Yes, if their idea of what's significant matches ours, but not necessarily otherwise. So our typists, or maybe 'knowledge engineers', add the markup _we_ want. A dreadful prospect, I agree, and clearly contrary to the spirit of the semantic web, but, I'm afraid it looks to be pretty much consistent with your open/closed source analogy (which was the only thing I was quibbling about BTW). Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed Jun 16 19:30:57 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: CSS and XML attributes Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF0B@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Please read the subject line before replying with an XSL solution. I grovel abjectly. I read the subject line three microseconds after pressing SEND. Mike xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed Jun 16 19:44:35 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF755@RED-MSG-08> You need to put a certain processing instruction in your XML document. See http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/xslguide/browsing-sspi.asp -----Original Message----- From: Puppala Satyanarayana S [mailto:swamis@wipsys.stph.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 8:03 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: This might be a basic question to you. But its really a big problem for me. I just started learning xml. I wrote a xml document which is valid(I mean i have a DTD for it). I wrote a XSL file for this xml document.Now i tried to view the xml file in IE5 browser. But , only the source code of the document was displayed, even the tags were displayed. Whether there is any problem with IE5. The IE5 i downloaded was a Beta version. Is there any other in which i can view my xml document? Can anyone help me? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 16 19:50:43 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <199906161631.MAA25356@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3767E453.BCF73AF0@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 09:21 AM 6/16/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >And one more: you appear to be assuming that the client actually > >has enough horsepower and information to do the transformation (or > >for the FO side of the argument, formatting) ... those are known > >to be false assumptions in many cases. A PDA with a typical speed > >IR link (not measured in megabits), slow CPU, and small fixed size > >storage just doesn't have that kind of resources. For many set-top > >boxes, ditto. > > Maybe it's just that I'm at JavaOne, where Sun and 3Com keep talking about > what you can do with Java on a Pilot, but I see the bandwidth as more of a > problem than the processing power. It might well make sense to create some > kind of PDA middleware that slims down content before shipping it to the > PDA, but that seems more a matter of consumer-oriented content-negotiation > than producer-determined semantic firewalling. Well, I was one of the first folk to publicly articulate that particular strategy on JavaSoft's behalf (almost two years ago now!) so I'm well familiar with the notion. But I don't see ANY difference betwen that and semantic firewalling. After all, isn't "content negotiation" just saying "firewall me away from these sorts of semantic I can't deal with"? And isn't the firewalling you object to just the provider's constraints showing up in the negotiation? > >If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > >the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > In all of these cases, I have a very simple question: do you want to be > able to choose the level of semantic information you receive, or do you > want that to be determined by your provider? Yes. The provider must of necessity choose how to respond to my particular choice. If I don't like that response, I can choose to request a different "level" (or probably "type") of information. This isn't an either/or question, and there are a variety of reasons providers may not be permitted to share certain data. Privacy guarantees are one example (financial, medical, etc), but aren't the only one by far! If the original content has data that isn't allowed to be shared except in "aggregate", then there may well be legal firewalls in place. There's a huge web ... and nobody has more than one little window onto it. > I have no object to > intelligent content-negotiation. I do have a problem with handing content > producers new tools for creating dumbed-down content with XML, the very > language that was supposed to improve the level of information quality on > the Web. "Improve" is a standard that different folk apply differently. For example, if I manage an account database, it's an "improvement" to me if I can use the "Extensible" Markup Language to share parts of it, for use in particular workflow processes. If I understand things, you're saying at one extreme that providing preformatted data (e.g. FOs to render a report) is a Bad Thing. And at the other extreme, maybe, that sharing anything less than the whole content of an account record is also a Bad Thing. In both cases the "client" should make those choices. I guess it just comes from my perspective in systems design, but I just can't accept that clients "should" be that smart. If I provide a report on a delinquent account, I don't want anyone else to be able to hide important bits so they can claim in court that they didn't get notice. If I share data with a partner, I may want to limit the amount of analysis they can perform on that (to protect my business). How much work to put on a client and a server is always a tricky issue, but it's safe to say that for every task that _could_ be offloaded from the server onto a client, there will in some cases be nontechnical policies (legal, business strategy, etc) forcing them to stay on the server. Ditto technical ones, as in the example I gave of clients that are too low-powered to do the work. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 16 20:01:57 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <3767D367.3652F792@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <3767E6FD.1F832312@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > There is a fundamental difference between providing a multiplicity > of views and creating a semantic firewall. I think you're agreeing with me, then, when you say that providing only one "view" is a firewall. The example you give of "source only" (v. "binary only") not being a firewall supports what I said too -- since that's an example of looking at the "whole web", for an extremely restrictive view of "web". If I were to attach some source code to this message, it wouldn't really be sufficient _in itself_ to present a web. You'd need to know something about its platform environment to compile or execute it -- more of its web. You'd need to know something about its intent to choose whether to try -- more of its web. Perhaps you'd need to understand the language(s) it used -- more of its web. And so on. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 16 20:49:28 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990616171749Z-83228@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> Message-ID: <3767F22A.D5699192@locke.ccil.org> Miles Sabin wrote: > > Typists can regenerate the surface form, but not the > > lost semantic markup. > > Are you sure about that? Granted they _might_ not be > able to restore the semantic markup that was placed > there by the originator [...] That's a quibble. The *original* semantic markup is lost, even if someone can supply *new* semantic markup that just-so-happens to be the same. Note: supplying one form is not a firewall if it is not a dumbed-down form. Source code is not a firewall, obfuscated source code is a firewall. See http://www.opensource.org/osd.html . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From daved at aeroinfo.com Wed Jun 16 21:13:48 1999 From: daved at aeroinfo.com (Dave Dieno) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: ISO SGML character mapping entities sets Message-ID: <3712D74A03A7D011BD120060973262512578E0@aeroinfo.com> Does anyone know if the ISO SGML character mapping entities sets such as: <!ENTITY % ISOnum PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Numeric and Special Graphic//EN"> have been ported to XML to remove the SDATA entities and updated with Unicode characters? For example from the ISOnum SGML entity set: <!ENTITY ldquo SDATA "[ldquo ]"--=double quotation mark, left--> Is converted to the XML equivalent: <!ENTITY ldquo "“"> Thanks, Dave Dieno Aeroinfo Systems Inc. http://www.aeroinfo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co Wed Jun 16 21:22:24 1999 From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (F.A.A.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: Corba and XML Message-ID: <000201beb82e$00ca0ac0$3705fd9d@preferred-user> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 5665 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990616/f67cf77e/attachment.gif From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 16 21:31:45 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: ISO SGML character mapping entities sets References: <3712D74A03A7D011BD120060973262512578E0@aeroinfo.com> Message-ID: <3767FC14.8516F599@locke.ccil.org> Dave Dieno wrote: > Does anyone know if the ISO SGML character mapping entities sets such as: > > <!ENTITY % ISOnum PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Numeric and Special > Graphic//EN"> The table at ftp://ftp.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MISC/SGML.TXT , composed by yours truly, contains essentially all the information you'd need to make XML versions of various ISO entity sets, including ISOnum. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 16 22:24:20 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: Corba and XML In-Reply-To: <000201beb82e$00ca0ac0$3705fd9d@preferred-user> References: <000201beb82e$00ca0ac0$3705fd9d@preferred-user> Message-ID: <wkemjb7uzs.fsf@ifi.uio.no> * F. A. A. | | could you please help me out with some useful pointers to some kind | of marriage between corba and XML? maybe some sort of xml2idl, maybe | marshalling using xml? The XML-RPC people already do marshalling with XML, although not in a CORBA context. (This makes sense, since if you have CORBA IIOP is much more attractive for various reasons, one of which is speed.) <URL: http://frontier.userland.com/tree$2.8.2.1> Also, the OMG has recently issued a specification they call XMI, which provides a mapping from an OMG information model to an XML DTD. You can find the specification on the OMG site. (My copy is still in the to-be-read heap, unfortunately.) Personally, I'm currently doing an MSc thesis on what CORBA and SGML/XML may have to contribute to one another in the context of building publishing systems. I hope to complete that thesis in the very near future. If you're interested you can come to Metastructures '99 to hear me talk about it. :) | ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEB322.E7F362E0 | Content-Type: image/gif | Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 | Content-ID: <000b01beb34c$d019f100$0100007f@preferred-user> | | R0lGODlh/wNdAPf/AP///4SEhIyMjJSUlJycnKWlpa2trbW1tb29vcbGxs7OztbW1t7e3ufn5+/v | 7/f3987GxtbOzt7W1r21ta2lpbWtrca9vZyUlKWcnMa9td7WztbOxr21rc7Gvefezt7Wxt7Wve/v | 5/f37///987OxtbWzt7e1ufn3r29ta2tpbW1rcbGvZSUjJyclKWlnIyMhN7ezufn1u/v3tbWxr29 What's this? --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ejfreed at infocanvas.com Wed Jun 16 22:48:50 1999 From: ejfreed at infocanvas.com (Erik Freed) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: X-Schema concerns In-Reply-To: <199906162016.NAA24425@netcom17.netcom.com> Message-ID: <009001beb83a$2d94c110$f5f6b5cf@evans.dnai.com> Hi Dave, The exact terms are ones that reasonable people can (and do) disagree on. So these terms are not advertised as authoritative, but to me one perspective is as follows: Level 0 the data environment has no idea what its own meta-data is Level 1 the data environment can somehow get meta-data information Level 2 The meta-data for a system is modeled in its own data (ie a class is an object) Level 3 The meta-data for a system is dynamically modeled in its own data (it can change at run-time) For instance you could add a completely different type of semantic property to a type, and have meta-data be based on it. Level 4 The meta-data for a system is dynamically modeled in its own data and boots from this definition. Various systems over the years have achieved various levels in various ways. There are other possible levels for other combinations of capabilities. Java for instance could be claimed to be level 2 (except no-one writes java code programmatically) and perhaps level 3 if you allow the system to compile and load new classes. (that would be pushing it) Level 3 and 4 require interesting chicken and egg boot procedures. I really do not know where this sort of thing is discussed except implicitly and explicitly in the proceedings of special interest groups such as ACM and IEEE. There are probably books out there but I cannot recommend any specifically. XML is interesting in that since it is very dynamic in both its meta-data and data dimensions, it has the possibility of supporting higher level more open and extendable systems. The XML system I am writing will be level 4. It will boot its first class object definitions, from an XML-SCHEMA definition, with the schema reader being essentially a bootstrap program. At run-time however the model can be changed and extended. good luck! erik -----Original Message----- From: G. David Kuhlman [mailto:dkuhlman@netcom.com] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:17 PM To: ejfreed@infocanvas.com Subject: Re: X-Schema concerns > > > The latest arguments regarding the usefulness of XML schema languages versus > DTDs are the most interesting. I have long used what are sometimes called > 'reflective' object models, where the 'meta-data' can be thought of as a > specialization of 'data'. This unified approach in my experience is more > than a conceptual nicety, it provides long term implementation advantages. A > single model for creation, storage, queries, fetches, modification, > browsing, editing, translating, etc means that your large scale mature > system is simpler to understand and has much less implementation code in it. > For instance, the reflective system I have most recently constructed, has a > browsing tool, where with only one tree view model, can browse through > meta-data and data 'boundaries'. This unified approach, I find, pays off > immediately in very practical terms. I'm interested in understanding what you call the "'reflective' object models". Can you suggest a resource or reference where I could learn more about it? Even hints and suggestions would be helpful. The application I work on edits objects that have an XML representation (along with others). I'm guessing that our application would benefit from the ability to deal with objects that are self describing and that help tell the object editor how to display and modify them. Am I a little bit on track here? In the future, when more and more of the objects in our applications have an XML representation, then the ability of objects to describe themselves and the ability to annotate an XSchema with information that helps an editor (and possibly other tools as well) will become more helpful and useful. Thanks for any pointers and help. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Wed Jun 16 23:41:17 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:11 2004 Subject: More CDATA questions Message-ID: <87256792.00775487.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> This has probably been dealt with somewhere else, but I don't remember it right off hand so I'll ask at the possibility of being redundant... Glenn brought this up and we didn't have any really feeling for the answer (other than what we guesstimated.) Is CDATA effectively the same as an entity reference except that its in place? I.e. is it basically just a blob of text which, once seen will have the bracketting gorp removed and the characters will be taken as character data of the enclosing element? Part of the reason for this question is to straighten out a possible ambiguity in our parsers. We have an ignorable whitespace callback and a characters callback on the document handler. Each of them has an 'isCDATA' parameter that indicates whether the chars/ws being passed out in the event came from a CDATA section or not. So, if I see this: <foo> <![CDATA[ ]]> </foo> should the spaces inside the CDATA be treated as either ignorable whitespace or characters according to the normal processing rules for a CHILDREN element? Or is there any way in which the content of the CDATA section would be treated differently? Would, for instance, it always be considered characters because its not just 'accidental whitespace'? Its obviously not just whitespace that happens to be in the content of the element, it was purposefully put into the element content to be treated 'as is'. OTOH, this would be technically illegal if it were treated as anything besides ignorable whitespace because the content model is CHILDREN. I guess part of the question is that are the contents of CDATA sections REALLY not passed judgement on, as you would think from the spec, or are they just KIND OF NOT REALLY passed judgement on? If you really just take the CDATA content as is, then you really shouldn't have to find out if they are all whitespace and deal with the validity issues of the content model. But, if you don't, then they could put non-ws characters in the content model of something that had CHILDREN or MIXED models. Am I making any sense here? :-) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Thu Jun 17 02:14:06 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net>; from David Brownell on Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:21:48AM -0700 References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:21:48AM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > > > At 06:28 AM 6/16/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > > >In other words I always interpreted it as being about choice. You complain > > >that XSL allows this choice. Even if it were the case that XSL uniquely > > >allowed data dumbing (which it is not), I could not see how its allowance > > >of this choice would constitute a problem or flaw. Data dumbing is part of > > >the economy and ecology of the Web. As Guy Murphy has described, the Web > > >is richer for it. Do we want Lexis-Nexis to take their thousands of > > >databases back to their private network where they controlled the level of > > >semantics tightly? > > > > I'm afraid we'll have to accept the value of this 'choice' as a fundamental > > disagreement. I feel strongly that by encouraging this choice, and by > > providing a vocabulary that is even more formatting-oriented than HTML, XSL > > encourages a greater level of server-side dumbing down than was available > > before, and makes it easier. I can't see this as a positive move in any > > light, > > I can, quite easily. I give examples below. > > And one more: you appear to be assuming that the client actually > has enough horsepower and information to do the transformation (or > for the FO side of the argument, formatting) ... those are known > to be false assumptions in many cases. A PDA with a typical speed > IR link (not measured in megabits), slow CPU, and small fixed size > storage just doesn't have that kind of resources. For many set-top > boxes, ditto. > > > > and no, I don't see the 'semantic firewall' as a positive thing for > > the Web. > > Hmm ... do you see them as issues in other contexts? Information > is transformed routinely, every day. Frankly, I don't want to to be > getting a complete history of everyone's life every time I deal with > them; I'm happier to work with the current context (far smaller!). > That sort of time/history based "semantic firewall" is very useful, > for all that it's subject to abuse by all parties. > > There are others; if I browse a product description, rarely will I > want complete technical specs, and if I do then I'll ask for them. > I may want my technical books at a different level than someone else. > > Those are examples of transformations reducing the information > that's presented. There are other transformations that can increase > it; perhaps I want to look at a particular seller's history on an > auction system before I buy from them, and not otherwise. > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". I'm a little confused, and I think it relates to a degree of confusion between formatting and transformation (XSL/XTL?). My understanding is that Simon et al object to the use of server XSL to provide formatted output to the client. Paul suggests that this is a good thing because it gives the owner of the data choice in what to make available to the user. David then provides some examples to back up this argument. My problem with all this is that the cases-in-point that David supplies (embedded systems notwithstanding, though they really are a separate issue in my opinion) are all more appropriately dealt with by transforming the data rather than formatting it (in fact, David even refers to it as such). But this is not, as far as I understand it, what Simon is objecting to. There is no-one, as far as I can tell, arguing that there is anything wrong with pruning the tree. The issue centers on whether it is appropriate to present only the formatted output to the client. I have no strong views on whether this is a good or a bad thing (having no experience at all with using XML/SGML browsers in a production environment), but it does seem to me that the participants are arguing across each other and not really getting to this central point of contention. This whole issue seems to me to provide a post hoc rationale for splitting XSL in two: XTL at the server and XSL at the client. Finally, I offer my most humble apologies to anyone whom I have misrepresented (and to everyone if I have misunderstood the debate). My sole intention is to offer what meagre help I can in keeping this most interesting discussion flowing. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Thu Jun 17 05:00:06 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990613150422.18839B-100000@grind> Message-ID: <3768645B.1D5D@hiwaay.net> Robin Cover wrote: > > at the > level I experience the Web via HTTP/HTML, a heap of broken > links, it's massively and profoundly broken by design. That > "people use it" is quite unremarkable, Is it? I think it remarkable that we have these debates yet have never met. I find the fact that I can sit at home changing mandolin strings rather than attending a meeting in San Jose to move a spec five paragraphs further and still be reading the New York Times remarkable. However we consider the design of HTTP/HTML or any simpler email system, that fact that they work is a testimony to engineering practice. If they fall short of theoretical elegance, it's OK by me as long as I can still change these strings. :-) > Ted's judgment probably seems harsh because he measures a thing > against its potential -- not just by "nothing is proven to work > better than..." It works and it works for lots of people. Quod Erat Something. At the end of the working day, that is an accomplishment. As for inline markup being harmful, it certainly can be just as inline RTF is a PIA. OTOH, it can also work marvelously well and in a simple way. The fact is, the means and skills to parse an undifferentiated blob of text, find the whitespace, find the linefeeds and embedded carriage returns, build a thesaurus, code the logic for finding the exceptions for disambiguating semantic meaning, and so on is waaaay beyond far too many people who are responsible for gathering, classifying, and assigning linking information to text. For these folks, there are tools such as markup. It is a tool; not a cancer. > That he may himself be judged a failure as > compared (e.g.,) to Bill Gates is no doubt the common verdict. He goes beyond facts into beliefs about what is best for everyone's information resources. Many of us have statements like that somewhere in the archives. All I am saying is that calling markup a cancer is hyperbole. It is a less than ideal but better than UTF-8 way of getting certain jobs done that Ted did not do. Those that did do it did a good job. No Latin; just, thanks for the relief so I don't have to do it. Can the web work better? Sure. But we don't get to find out without applying our experience and trying out our ideas. Whatever else we do, we get to do that here. How many folks get to work on Xanadu? > In referencing his brilliance, I was speaking from a different > reference point, and different set of values, where > measurement by counting companies acquired, companies brought > to IPO, and 'successful' software products delivered (etc.) has > no currency. MS didn't invent this. They took advantage of it just like everyone, and I do mean everyone, else. So? Let 'em. Working software beats the heck out of systems that are always just one more revision from being released. See Babbage. If we are still worried about chaining up our information, well, if that virus last week didn't do anything else, it sure made me organize the paper in the file cabinet. Tedious to use, but not zero-length at the whim of someone who thought it would be a clever stunt to wipe files for some holy cause to release me from my MS chains. Jeez. That help the InfoMustBeFree Warriors can keep. > Among Ted's gifts, some would say, is an unusual > ability to damn mediocrity by identifying it and labeling it > so plainly that it hurts. Something else I hope I have learned: I can't educate by hurting that which doesn't learn from pain. It's just more pain. This is as true of Gates as it is of Ted: whatever they have, they have because they want it. Me, I am a mediocre mind; I just want to change the strings on my guitar next. If this is the cry of someone who has lost their higher aspirations, so be it. Those who listen get better sound. This isn't, worse is better; it is something for someone. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Thu Jun 17 04:59:54 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376854EC.6835@hiwaay.net> David Megginson wrote: > > That's not what I mean -- creating a data model is tractable, but a > data model is of questionable value if it's not based on a fairly > accurate business model, use cases, etc. I don't think that any of us > can reasonably draw up a reliable business model that will cover the > Web for the next five years, and even the use cases will be pretty > shakey. Without good models, bottom-up is our best bet. Umm.. isn't that why we do markup and write DTDs? They may not last forever, but like mudbricks that cleave, they make a reasonable structure and, well, beat the heck out of fighting bears for caves. We can always resort to "things change; why bother?" We bother because we get more done when we agree to what is to be done and the means and tools for doing it. We make contracts. For some years now, some have referred to DTDs as contract-validated communications. It works as long as parties agree, and agreements get renegotitated. What some refer to as bottom up is responding to local requirements with local means. Global requirements can also be met with local means but may not work for long. Global requirements met with global means may not work any longer. Say, ok good for people, not good enough for machines? I disagree. It may not be good enough for certain chores, but good for enough chores gets enough done. The fact is, you make a model, watch the output at every loop, and adjust. If it means a new model, then the old model taught you what to look for to know when it wasn't working. We can talk endlessly about the meta-models needed to keep that knowledge and so on, but eventually, we run out of time, mental stack space, whatever. Exhaustion or no achievements. no roof? Pooped out and broken but dry is better. There is no best bet. There is practice that works until it fails and what you design to cope with failure. The problem of SGML, XML, and markup in general is the futile attempt of some to permanently capture process by static means. It is always at best, a snapshot. That is OK. A snapshot is all you need to make comparisons. Used like that, seen without the moral obligations to build edifices for the greater glory of some One, markup works great. Even an instamatic takes a good picture if the hand and eye are talented. Take a block of marble and hack, and you get rock. The art is in the eye. If I learned nothing from CALS, SGML, HyTime, etc., I hope I learned that our tools are just tools to be wielded by hands. Every DTD written so far is being modified by human hands, or languishes somewhere in a thousand page tome. Every mudbrick house needs patching or is buried in sand somewhere waiting for Ozymandias to return. Still, better than the caves. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 06:15:19 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: More CDATA questions References: <87256792.00775487.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <376876DA.797C6040@pacbell.net> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > > Is CDATA effectively the same as an entity reference No -- CDATA is characters. Entity reference is "contents" which may be characters, but may also have elements, nested references, and more. > except that its in place? > I.e. is it basically just a blob of text which, once seen will > have the > bracketting gorp removed and the characters will be taken as > character data of > the enclosing element? Just characters ... which isn't the same as an entity ref. > if I see this: > > <foo> > <![CDATA[ ]]> > </foo> > > should the spaces inside the CDATA be treated as either ignorable > whitespace or > characters according to the normal processing rules for a CHILDREN > element? Treated as characters. There was some discussion here a few months back on this topic, initiated by Henry S. Thompson. It should be in the archives (sometime before February). The OASIS test suite in consequence has a case for this; I recall putting Henry's case into that collection of tests, after it seemed there was agreement. > I guess part of the question is that are the contents of CDATA > sections REALLY > not passed judgement on, as you would think from the spec, Really! ;-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dirkg at tectrade.be Thu Jun 17 11:40:05 1999 From: dirkg at tectrade.be (Dirk Germonpre) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: supporting unicode in XML tools Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990617113836.00976d20@relay.tectrade.be> Hello, I'm going to write some XML tools. How can I support both UTF-8 and UTF-16 at the same time? Am I better of writing XML software in C++ or Java with respect to supporting unicode? Thanks in advance. ---------------------------------- Dirk Germonpr? - dirkg@tectrade.be Tectrade NV Pieter de Conincklaan 33 B-8200 Brugge Belgium xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dirkg at tectrade.be Thu Jun 17 12:28:57 1999 From: dirkg at tectrade.be (Dirk Germonpre) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: detecting character set of an XML doc Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990617122656.00977a10@relay.tectrade.be> Hello, If I'm writing an XML tool, how can I detect what character set is used for an XML document? I've read that for UTF-16, an encoding signature (xFEFF) is used at the beginning of the document. Is there a different encoding signature for each character set? If so, where can I find documentation on this? Where can I find encoders and decoders for C++ to convert to and from unicode? Thanks in advance. ---------------------------------- Dirk Germonpr? - dirkg@tectrade.be Tectrade NV Pieter de Conincklaan 33 B-8200 Brugge Belgium xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu Jun 17 12:54:58 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: detecting character set of an XML doc Message-ID: <01BEB8C0.94B05BD0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Dirk Germonpre wrote: > If I'm writing an XML tool, how can I detect what character set is used for > an XML document? I've read that for UTF-16, an encoding signature (xFEFF) > is used at the beginning of the document. Is there a different encoding > signature for each character set? If so, where can I find documentation on > this? See Appendix F of the XML spec. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Thu Jun 17 12:58:57 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML Message-ID: <KETIL-86yahjdoxo.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> Hi, I must admit I don't have the time to follow this list as diligently as I'd like, so it is possible that my questions have been answered already. I'll submit them nevertheless. :-) We have a rather complex application which stores its state using the standard MFC serialize stuff (well, actually a somewhat hacked version, but that's beside the point). Now, this limits our freedom in (or at least severely complicates) redesigning internal class structure while maintaining backwards file compatibility, and we've been pondering an XML format instead. There are of course other advantages, like accessing the information from other applications, or generating HTML and whatnot. The question is whether this, in general, is a good idea, and whether people have done this, and if so, to what degree of success, and by what methods. I can see two ways of doing this: 1) Use a DOM-based document, which can be passed around, much the way a CArchive class is, and modifying the Serialize() to fill in the relevant nodes in the document tree or 2) Encapsulating the document (DOM or otherwise) in a separate class, which traverses the application's classes and picks whatever information is relevant in whatever sequence it desires. The advantage of model 1 is a structure quite similar to what already exists, most of the code base could be left alone, I think. On the other hand, if our existing classes are well designed, all the relevant information should be accessible through the public: interfaces, and it should be easier to build the document in a flexible way. E.g. the placement of various information might not be obvious from the class' perspective. So, before we jump the gun, I'd like to hear from people who have done this, and are willing to share their experiences, or otherwise contribute suggestions and ideas. Thanks for listening, -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Thu Jun 17 13:18:43 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: detecting character set of an XML doc Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19B4@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dirk Germonpre [SMTP:dirkg@tectrade.be] > > Hello, > > If I'm writing an XML tool, how can I detect what character set is used > for > an XML document? I've read that for UTF-16, an encoding signature (xFEFF) > is used at the beginning of the document. Is there a different encoding > signature for each character set? > Not each "character set" - but each encoding, yes. They all exhibit different binary signatures, otherwise they would be the same... :) > If so, where can I find documentation on this? You can start with the XML spec, appendix B (I think it's B) contains some brief information. Or John Cowan posted a C decoder which detected the most common ones, or you can find my perl Apache module on CPAN, which detects the character sets and encoding. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jlangdon at copeland.com Thu Jun 17 14:53:05 1999 From: jlangdon at copeland.com (Jeff Langdon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML Message-ID: <85256793.0046AC59.00@mail.copeland.com> FYI... Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? Is this person just pulling names off the mailing lists? Please excuse the cross posting Jeff Langdon Senior Web Developer The Copeland Companies Cathey Cotten <cathey@metasearchinc.com> on 06/16/99 06:36:40 PM To: Jeff Langdon/IT/The Copeland Companies@The Copeland Companies cc: Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML My name is Cathey Cotten. I am the Founder of MetaSearch Inc., one of the Bay Area's leading Technology Industry Search Firms. I have recently had an opportunity to review an overview you had written with regard to XML technology and I was wondering if you would be interested in entertaining career opportunities. MetaSearch is a consulting firm specialized in staffing experts for pre-IPO start-ups in electronic commerce and knowledge management. These players are well positioned for the marketplace in their respective fields. As such, the value proposition that most offer to our candidates is an aggressive salary, a challenging environment and pre-IPO equity. As XML is fast becoming the standard Web specification, many of our clients are using it to build their e-commerce businesses. One of our current clients is building a truly exciting fast-paced electronic-commerce project that will be one of the "World's Largest Portals" with the expectation of 250 Million Hits and over a Billion page views per day! This project is working in conjunction with several companies and nations. Not only will you be working with some of the Internet's "heavy hitters" ... you will be building a portal for a great cause. The project will include streaming of live events and world-wide simulcasts both on radio and television. We are also working with a pre-ipo "start-up" head quartered in Silicon Valley. This company develops business-to-business electronic commerce software products and services that automate business transactions and collaborative processes in the supply chain. These applications enable participation/collaboration of the supply channel in material planning/forecast, quote and procurement management, engineering change management, new product introduction, flow-through distribution, logistics integration, and other business processes. In addition to the realization of tremendous cost savings, reduction in cycle times and errors, and increased efficiencies and gains in productivity, these applications enable companies to source, manufacture, and ship on a global level. I would like an opportunity to speak with you to discuss in more detail your experience, career aspirations, and current requirements. I invite you to visit our web site at www.metasearchinc.com to familiarize yourself both with our firm and with the current open positions. If you are not entertaining new opportunities at this time would you kindly send a simple reply to this E-mail to that effect. Thank you. I can be reached at 415.256.2970. I look forward to speaking with you soon. Best regards, Cathey __________________________________________________________ Beatrice Murch Communications Manager MetaSearch Inc. Post Office Box 129 San Anselmo, CA 94960, USA Voice: 415.256.2970 Data: 415.256.2979 http://www.metasearchinc.com ____________________________________________________________ MetaSearch focuses on one of the most critical challenges for technology managers today...locating the best talent available to build dynamic teams. We are committed to assisting emerging technology companies hire world-class, high-performance contributors in software development, sales, marketing and operations. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Thu Jun 17 16:07:30 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs Message-ID: <19990617140812.29723.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Hi Everyone, Is it possible to have nested DTDs. If so I would like to have samples. Its pretty urgent. Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 16:25:39 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <004c01beb8c5$80812d10$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Mark Birbeck <Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net> >Rick Jelliffe wrote: >> A schema is "processing" not "data": it is tied to whatever >> applications >> understand the schema format. Editing, creating and >> validating against a >> schema are all applications. > > As far as I can see, one point of the schema proposal is to >be functionally equivalent to a DTD with a few obvious advantages, one >of these being that if we get the definition right, each node can >specify its own schema. What you gain on the swing you lose on the roundabout. I have been using Adobe's EDD system for several years for defining document structures: it allows syntax directed editing of the schema, tree views, rich text comments, nicely formatted direct export to HTML and PDF, linking to styles, pre- text and post-text and hard coding of flow objects (if you want). I like it, but I still prefer DTDs. The XML Schema Structure draft was disappointing to me: DTD syntax is given a great leap forward (i.e., superficial but nice) from 70's syntax (macros) to 80's syntax (objects) and a couple of things from HyTime get twisted and added like a balloon poodle. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Thu Jun 17 16:31:42 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML In-Reply-To: <85256793.0046AC59.00@mail.copeland.com> Message-ID: <v03102806b38eb6de314b@[168.100.203.234]> At 8:55 AM -0400 6/17/99, Jeff Langdon wrote: >FYI... > >Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? > >Is this person just pulling names off the mailing lists? > >Please excuse the cross posting > I got it too. Given the way it was worded, I thought it was a more specific solicitaion from somebody who'd read my book but I guess not. I'll dump it in the recycle bin with all the other recruiter spam. (And recruiters wonder why I don't want to deal with them and insist on dealing only with principals...) +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | XML: Extensible Markup Language (IDG Books 1998) | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764531999/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://sunsite.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://sunsite.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 16:42:29 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:21:48AM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > I'm a little confused, and I think it relates to a degree of confusion > between formatting and transformation (XSL/XTL?). > > My understanding is that Simon et al object to the use of server XSL > to provide formatted output to the client. Paul suggests that this is > a good thing because it gives the owner of the data choice in what to > make available to the user. David then provides some examples to back > up this argument. Actually, I gave more general examples too ... when you transform the data in any way (not only turning into "formatted" output like HTML, FOs, etc) you may be preventing "clients" from seeing data that some may want to be able to see. > My problem with all this is that the cases-in-point that David > supplies (embedded systems notwithstanding, though they really are a > separate issue in my opinion) are all more appropriately dealt with by > transforming the data rather than formatting it (in fact, David even > refers to it as such). But this is not, as far as I understand it, > what Simon is objecting to. I see all of those transformations as points on a spectrum, and the note I responded to didn't seem to be restricted to XSL FOs; it didn't mention FOs or formatting, as I recall. (I was concerned about whether the discussion lost some context, too!) Turning data into presentation-only data is just another transform, in any case, for all that it's a bit more apparent how much was removed. Clients don't generally have any "right" to see that extra data. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 16:50:57 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:12 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <005301beb8c9$1a2aea70$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com> >Murray Maloney writes: > > > Well. Maybe meta-data, but a schema is simply declarative. > > It does not perform any processing. Editing, creating and > > validating are all applications. So what? > >Schemas and stylesheets are both declarative, and both include >information that can be acted on by processors. In the case of a >schema, the result is a truth value (valid/not valid) and, optionally, >a transformation (supplying default values, etc.); in the case of a >stylesheet, the result is a transformation or rendition. I think that this exchange reveals the central confusion that people have. If the editor of the Information Set draft and the editor of the Schema draft still are feeling around the issue of a schema, what hope for the rest of us :-) They are both exceptional men, but it shows that there is lot of room for community discussion. Murray views schemas largely as the patterns by which documents are constructed (or "described"). David views schemas as a specifications for validation. It is quite possible to build languages which do both, but the result may be mediocre. Xeena is OK but it is not great--even Adobe's brilliant DTD-to-EDD transformations leaves a lot of things out that are worthwhile for building. In my view, DTDs are definitely validation schemas: they are a big fat assert() statements bundled with other header information. A schema that would be useful for document construction should include human-readable comments, the ability of one attribute to enable another, specifying the end types of reference, etc. Newbies ask predictable questions about structures; the draft has not addressed those questions. A language validation should be some selection of the schema patterns expressed as (possibly weaker) constraints and delivered in a very terse form. There was a great book on parsing called "Syntax, Structures, Schemes, Semantics, Verification". It seems that people use "schema" interchangably for any of these different things. The XML Schema draft seems to be a "construction" schema for database documents and simple untyped hypertext documents. It is certainly not a validation suited for documents with structures outside tree structures, and it is not suited for client-end validation unless there are no bandwidth issues. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 16:59:11 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's Message-ID: <006401beb8ca$37a33520$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Andrew Wheeler <akwheel@talos.org> >I am currently working for client that has developed a data model and is >using an XML DTD to describe it. ...We would like to >produce the DTD without comments for applications, and some other output >that would document the hierarchical structure of the DTD but with added >bonus of clicking on a element and getting a description for it (We do >not really want to spend time writing bespoke code, which we have to >maintain). Err...what about HTML? You write the DTD in an HTML editor with some JavaScript popup links on each interesting keyword. To generate the text version of the DTD, SaveAs... to text. You can hypertext link to any part of the DTD and you don't need to buy any tools, or sit around waiting for future DTD-in-instance-schema tools to be marketed. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 17 17:02:32 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? In-Reply-To: <376854EC.6835@hiwaay.net> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> <376854EC.6835@hiwaay.net> Message-ID: <14185.3218.512310.594578@localhost.localdomain> Len Bullard writes: > > That's not what I mean -- creating a data model is tractable, but a > > data model is of questionable value if it's not based on a fairly > > accurate business model, use cases, etc. I don't think that any of us > > can reasonably draw up a reliable business model that will cover the > > Web for the next five years, and even the use cases will be pretty > > shakey. Without good models, bottom-up is our best bet. > > Umm.. isn't that why we do markup and write DTDs? They may not > last forever, but like mudbricks that cleave, they make a > reasonable structure and, well, beat the heck out of fighting bears > for caves. Just so, but imagine if we had all waited to start writing DTDs until ISO approved a master document architecture that would govern all DTDs in the SGML and XML document space (kudos to HyTime for trying, though). This is the point that I (and others) have been making in this discussion: a top-down approach (start with the master architecture) can work for something like a new parts-management system for ACME.com; a bottom-up approach (start with the components, such as individual specs and DTDs) is pretty much required in an open and fast-changing system like the Web. As Paul Prescod has pointed out, however, in both cases the process is really iterative: in a bottom-up approach, it's often useful to stop and throw together a straw-man architecture to see if what we've done so far makes sense together; in a top-down approach, it's often useful to stop and throw together some proof-of-concept components, to see if there will be any obvious implementation problems. The difference comes simply from which of the two is formalized. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Jun 17 17:03:49 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <01BEB807.0420E8A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617110408.0196b308@mail.muzmo.com> At 02:46 PM 6/16/99 +0200, Ronald Bourret wrote: >My apologies for the sarcasm, but although I find the use of namespace URIs >to find schemas a wonderful theoretical idea, I'm having more than a little >trouble seeing how it could possibly work in practice. > Come work with Commerce One and we'll show you. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 17 17:15:51 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <005301beb8c9$1a2aea70$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> References: <005301beb8c9$1a2aea70$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <14185.4221.583529.316510@localhost.localdomain> Rick Jelliffe writes: > A schema that would be useful for document construction should > include human-readable comments, the ability of one attribute to > enable another, specifying the end types of reference, etc. > Newbies ask predictable questions about structures; the draft has > not addressed those questions. Rick makes a very good point -- the schema requirements for authoring and validation/processing are very different. Additional complexity comes from the fact that there is also an n:n relationship also between authoring and processing schemas: a document created using any given authoring schema may match n validation schemas, and vice-versa. The main point, I think, is that it would be a mistake to try to force any kind of 1:1 relationship onto XML documents and their schemas/stylesheets, etc. by using the Namespace URI to locate a single, canonical schema. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 17:14:01 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: ISO SGML character mapping entities sets Message-ID: <008f01beb8cc$4526ea50$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Dave Dieno <daved@aeroinfo.com> >Does anyone know if the ISO SGML character mapping entities sets such as: > ><!ENTITY % ISOnum PUBLIC "ISO 8879-1986//ENTITIES Numeric and Special >Graphic//EN"> > >have been ported to XML to remove the SDATA entities and updated with >Unicode characters? They are available at http://www.ascc.net/xml/resource/entities/index.html By the way, could anyone who has mirrored these update them to the most recent versions. I get a couple of complaints per month about errors that are long fixed. Also, there is a technical question I have for everyone: what is the preferred entity value for the percnt entity? I now have <!ENTITY percnt "&#37;" ><!--=percent sign--> SGML'86 validators do not pick up the following WF errror: <!ENTITY percnt "%" ><!--=percent sign--> Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Jun 17 17:46:08 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <027601beb8d7$809488d0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Murray Maloney wrote: >At 02:46 PM 6/16/99 +0200, Ronald Bourret wrote: >>My apologies for the sarcasm, but although I find the use of namespace URIs >>to find schemas a wonderful theoretical idea, I'm having more than a little >>trouble seeing how it could possibly work in practice. >> >Come work with Commerce One and we'll show you. > There is no doubt in my mind that using the namespace URI can work in many circumstances to locate a schema. There is also no doubt in my mind that a PI containing an href can also be used to locate a schema. The issue ought not be what has been done in pre-spec implementations rather what is the best way to do this for the future. The problem with using the namespace URI is that 1) it identifies a single resource 2) the location and protocol used to access the resource is hardcoded into the namespace and hence cannot be changed without causing fundamental changes to the structure of the entire document. 3) mechanisms to resolve URIs which are location and protocol indenpendent (e.g. "urn:xxx") are not widely available and hence cannot be used in practice. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jun 17 18:02:06 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990617085953.0124d7e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:31 AM 6/17/99 -0400, Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: >At 8:55 AM -0400 6/17/99, Jeff Langdon wrote: >>Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? >I got it too. Given the way it was worded, I thought it was a more specific >solicitaion from somebody who'd read my book but I guess not. I'll dump it Actually, I think it would be OK for recruiters just to post straight to xml-dev. I find these things interesting if only as barometers of the market temperature, and lord knows we need an occasional break from namespace URI theology. Also somebody might get an interesting job. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jun 17 18:02:06 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:17 AM 6/17/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >The main point, I think, is that it would be a mistake to try to force >any kind of 1:1 relationship onto XML documents and their >schemas/stylesheets, etc. by using the Namespace URI to locate a >single, canonical schema. Dammit, enough of these half-measures. I want a single, canonical schema for *everything* and I want it now! -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Thu Jun 17 18:35:13 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990617085953.0124d7e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <000801beb8e0$37e210e0$0a000a0a@csg> > Actually, I think it would be OK for recruiters just to post straight > to xml-dev. I find these things interesting if only as barometers of the > market temperature, and lord knows we need an occasional break from > namespace URI theology. Also somebody might get an interesting job. -Tim I hope Bray will come to his senses and rethink that postulation. Granted, some relief from his arduous efforts are warranted but I suggest he go out and get mugged or raped or something equal in effect to the results of that which the employment pimps have to offer and then come back to the list to report his satisfaction. -- Regards Clinton Gallagher NET cpio@metromilwaukee.com URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 17 18:38:14 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: More CDATA questions References: <87256792.00775487.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <376924E3.130752A3@locke.ccil.org> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > Would, for instance, it always be considered characters because its > not just 'accidental whitespace'? Yes, indeed. Element content models allow only ordinary whitespace, not CDATA-bracketed whitespace. Therefore, nothing can be both "ignorable whitespace" and CDATA-bracketed at the same time. Clause 3.2.1 makes it clear that whitespace in element-content-model elements must match the production S, which a CDATA section does not. > OTOH, this would be technically illegal if it > were treated as anything besides ignorable whitespace because the content model > is CHILDREN. It violates the Validity Constraint "Element Valid", specifically point 2. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Thu Jun 17 18:39:58 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19BD@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com] > > At 10:31 AM 6/17/99 -0400, Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > >At 8:55 AM -0400 6/17/99, Jeff Langdon wrote: > >>Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? > >I got it too. Given the way it was worded, I thought it was a more > specific > >solicitaion from somebody who'd read my book but I guess not. I'll dump > it > > Actually, I think it would be OK for recruiters just to post straight > to xml-dev. I find these things interesting if only as barometers of the > market temperature, and lord knows we need an occasional break from > namespace URI theology. Also somebody might get an interesting job. -Tim > So long as they post in XML-HR, and they'll accept my CV in XML :) Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Jun 17 18:42:11 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:13 2004 Subject: Warning: xml-dev@baylogics.com - No such user! Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617124217.0185d5e8@mail.muzmo.com> Could whoever is in charge of such things please fix the mail list so that we don't get this warning every time we post. It is almost enought to stop me from posting here. >Return-Path: <> >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:46:12 -0700 >From: MDaemon@baylogics.com >X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash] >Subject: Warning: xml-dev@baylogics.com - No such user! >To: murray@muzmo.com >Reply-To: MDaemon@baylogics.com >X-Actual-To: murray@muzmo.com >X-Actual-From: MDaemon@baylogics.com > >xml-dev@baylogics.com - no such user here. > >: Message contains [1] file attachments >Received: from wren.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.64] by baylogics.com [200.100.100.15] with POP (MDaemon.v2.7.SP2.R) for <xml-dev@baylogics.com>; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:16:32 -0700 >Received: from tomatin.cc.ic.ac.uk (tomatin.cc.ic.ac.uk [155.198.5.58]) > by crane.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.8.7/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA22066; > Thu, 17 Jun 1999 08:11:35 -0700 (PDT) >Received: from majordom by tomatin.cc.ic.ac.uk with local (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 10udhl-0004tz-00; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:03:49 +0100 >Received: from romeo.ic.ac.uk ([155.198.5.9]) > by tomatin.cc.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #2) > id 10udhk-0004tm-00; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:03:48 +0100 >Received: from [206.221.240.83] (helo=bismuth.tor.sfl.net) > by romeo.ic.ac.uk with esmtp (Exim 2.12 #1) > id 10udjz-00019P-00 > for xml-dev@majordomo.ic.ac.uk; Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:06:07 +0100 >Received: from lucille ([216.183.15.140]) by bismuth.tor.sfl.net > (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with SMTP id AAA1C10; > Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:05:57 -0400 >Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19990617110408.0196b308@mail.muzmo.com> >X-Sender: murray.maloney@mail.muzmo.com >X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) >Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:04:08 -0400 >To: Ronald Bourret <rbourret@ito.tu-darmstadt.de> >From: "Murray Maloney" <murray@muzmo.com> >Subject: RE: Namespace URI address resources >Cc: "'XML Dev'" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> >In-Reply-To: <01BEB807.0420E8A0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> >Mime-Version: 1.0 >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Sender: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Precedence: bulk >Reply-To: "Murray Maloney" <murray@muzmo.com> >X-UIDL: cd1dc77fa8037d03ad1d3c11c56ae791 >X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: xml-dev@baylogics.com > >At 02:46 PM 6/16/99 +0200, Ronald Bourret wrote: >>My apologies for the sarcasm, but although I find the use of namespace URIs >>to find schemas a wonderful theoretical idea, I'm having more than a little >>trouble seeing how it could possibly work in practice. >> >Come work with Commerce One and we'll show you. > >---------------------------------------------------------- >Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 >Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 >671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com >Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com >Canada, L1W 3K6 > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From regan at knowmed.com Thu Jun 17 18:58:52 1999 From: regan at knowmed.com (regan@knowmed.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML Message-ID: <A3A3B69F1E3FD211A35F00A0C9CDFEDA2F28B4@BERNT01> Since I got it to and I don't think I have ever written a useful sentence on either list, she must be just sending it to all posters. I thought it was a mildly creative angle. (I also got a laugh out of it, recruiters just crack me up.) If anyone takes the job let us know how it goes! -Regan > -----Original Message----- > From: Elliotte Rusty Harold [mailto:elharo@metalab.unc.edu] > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 7:32 AM > To: Jeff Langdon; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; xsl-list@mulberrytech.com; > XML-L@LISTSERV.HEANET.IE > Cc: cathey@metasearchinc.com > Subject: Re: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML > > > At 8:55 AM -0400 6/17/99, Jeff Langdon wrote: > >FYI... > > > >Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? > > > >Is this person just pulling names off the mailing lists? > > > >Please excuse the cross posting > > > > I got it too. Given the way it was worded, I thought it was a > more specific > solicitaion from somebody who'd read my book but I guess not. > I'll dump it > in the recycle bin with all the other recruiter spam. (And recruiters > wonder why I don't want to deal with them and insist on > dealing only with > principals...) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 19:02:09 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906161624.MAA25061@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37692A91.FB3A3072@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > However, I think a fundamental point that both you and Paul are missing > here is that even _if_ you have to reorganize your document so that CSS can > display it easily, the impact of that 'dumbing down' is much less dramatic > than the impact of transformation to formatting objects or XSL. It's a > smaller project that creates less dramatic problems. Your comment sounds like "the FO criticism"... I need to strike the "or XSL" to make sense of it, since XSL(T) can often be used to achieve the transform. FOs could be a target; not XSL(T). I'll certainly grant that a document turned to HTML or FOs is going to be painful to mine for useful data, including semantic manipulations via DOM. But I won't grant that as a "dramatic problem" in all cases ... like the "just display the data" case. Also, keep in mind that there's no CSS-1 engine (except maybe Mozilla M6) that does what it should in the "just display this" case. There's no way to avoid having a "dramatic problem": things need to be written in a browser-specific manner, which can be a major problem!! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tyler at infinet.com Thu Jun 17 19:06:41 1999 From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML References: <3.0.32.19990617085953.0124d7e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37692AC8.78BDF00B@infinet.com> Tim Bray wrote: > At 10:31 AM 6/17/99 -0400, Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > >At 8:55 AM -0400 6/17/99, Jeff Langdon wrote: > >>Did anybody else get this annoying solicitation? > >I got it too. Given the way it was worded, I thought it was a more specific > >solicitaion from somebody who'd read my book but I guess not. I'll dump it > > Actually, I think it would be OK for recruiters just to post straight > to xml-dev. I find these things interesting if only as barometers of the > market temperature, and lord knows we need an occasional break from > namespace URI theology. Also somebody might get an interesting job. -Tim Really it depends on the nature of the solicitation I think. General spam postings saying we have general positions related to "The Internet" serve very little use here. I think early on in a technology's development, job postings are a good thing because it gets the ball rolling for all of the early adopters of a technology. Later on when a technology matures and their is high demand for that particular skillset, then postings like the one from MetaSeatch Inc. are nothing more than offensive spam that takes advantage of the high number of qualified developers on this list. There is a line that is sometimes hard to gauge but nevertheless there is a line. Right now I think that even though XML is far from its potential in terms of use on the web and in other domains it is inappropriate for recruiters to post to a list like this. One idea would be to openly solicit recruiters to post to XML-DEV for a fee to help pay for the list maintenance expenses. I am not sure how big this list is at the moment, but sending out all that mail has some cost. For the small price of reading (or at least downloading) a few advertisements from recruiters a week, the list could help pay for itself. Personally, I would not mind spam if I got paid everytime I had to read it or even hit the delete button. Some network marketing programs such as AllAdvantage seem to be experimenting with this approach so I guess maybe if their business efforts are successful then we would see less spam on lists like these (and in our mailbox) without being compensated beforehand. In watching public TV we pay by letting our minds of mush subliminally digest the marketing messages of commercials, so why not have a public list be paid for by a few sanctioned commercials a week? Oh well it is just an idea for the list maintainer (I forget who actually runs the entire show here), so I hope this does not spawn an entire "What to do about SPAM" thread. Tyler xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Thu Jun 17 19:09:41 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <027601beb8d7$809488d0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9906171756300.21788-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> On Thu, 17 Jun 1999, Jonathan Borden wrote: > Murray Maloney wrote: > >At 02:46 PM 6/16/99 +0200, Ronald Bourret wrote: > >>My apologies for the sarcasm, but although I find the use of namespace > URIs > >>to find schemas a wonderful theoretical idea, I'm having more than a > little > >>trouble seeing how it could possibly work in practice. > >> > >Come work with Commerce One and we'll show you. > > > There is no doubt in my mind that using the namespace URI can work in > many circumstances to locate a schema. There is also no doubt in my mind > that a PI containing an href can also be used to locate a schema. The issue > ought not be what has been done in pre-spec implementations rather what is > the best way to do this for the future. The problem with using the namespace > URI is that > > 1) it identifies a single resource ...which might have multiple content-negotiable manifestations (each of which is a resource too), much as normal Web resources can manifest themselves in HTML,PDF,GIF,PNG (or, closer to the point) in different lanuages (fr,en etc) as a normal part of the dereferencing business. > 2) the location and protocol used to access the resource is hardcoded into 'a' not 'the'; possiblity of other access mechanisms for getting at (content/language negotiated bytestream manifestations of the) resource isn't ruled out. And is only hardcoded with certain URI schemes. > the namespace and hence cannot be changed without causing fundamental > changes to the structure of the entire document. > 3) mechanisms to resolve URIs which are location and protocol indenpendent > (e.g. "urn:xxx") are not widely available and hence cannot be used in > practice. This is just more (meta)data, and XML is as good a mechanism as any for shipping about such stuff. We don't need to wait for global infrastructure before exchanging such modest facts as 'uri:xxx:doc444' -manifestedAt-> 'ftp://docs.org/doc444'. eg: <abc:CV xmlns:abc="urn:x-xxx:schemata/abc"> [...instance data using the 'abc' vocab here...] </abc:CV> [accompanied perhaps by data about resolving the URI naming 'abc'...] <uri:resolveinfo abstract="urn:x-xxx:schemeta/abc" uri="http://yetanotherindustryregistry.org/abc.xml"/> Sure, the terminology to exchange this resolution needs to be nailed down, but the point is that what we lack is not a URN resolution _mechanism_ being widely deployed, but a bit of terminology for thinking how to exchange this URN2URL-ish information. Which by contrast doesn't seem so hard... Dan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 17 19:11:53 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14185.11427.826848.895457@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > Dammit, enough of these half-measures. I want a single, canonical > schema for *everything* and I want it now! -Tim <!ELEMENT document ANY> All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Jun 17 19:18:55 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <005301beb8c9$1a2aea70$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617131147.018960c0@mail.muzmo.com> At 11:55 PM 6/17/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com> >>Murray Maloney writes: >> >> > Well. Maybe meta-data, but a schema is simply declarative. >> > It does not perform any processing. Editing, creating and >> > validating are all applications. So what? >> >>Schemas and stylesheets are both declarative, and both include >>information that can be acted on by processors. In the case of a >>schema, the result is a truth value (valid/not valid) and, optionally, >>a transformation (supplying default values, etc.); in the case of a >>stylesheet, the result is a transformation or rendition. > >I think that this exchange reveals the central confusion that people >have. If the editor of the Information Set draft and the editor of the >Schema draft still are feeling around the issue of a schema, what hope >for the rest of us :-) They are both exceptional men, but it shows that >there is lot of room for community discussion. > >Murray views schemas largely as the patterns by which documents are >constructed (or "described"). David views schemas as a specifications >for validation. First of all, the context of my statement is missing. Secondly, I do not disagree with David's statement. Third, thanks for the compliment. I am gratified to know that someone considers me and David to be exceptional. However, your characterization of my views are not completely in sync with my actual views. I do agree with David's views and do not see any incompatibility between these views. ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tyler at infinet.com Thu Jun 17 19:21:27 1999 From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML References: <000801beb8e0$37e210e0$0a000a0a@csg> Message-ID: <37692E18.A6E6F7D5@infinet.com> WorldNet wrote: > > Actually, I think it would be OK for recruiters just to post straight > > to xml-dev. I find these things interesting if only as barometers of the > > market temperature, and lord knows we need an occasional break from > > namespace URI theology. Also somebody might get an interesting job. -Tim > > I hope Bray will come to his senses and rethink that postulation. Granted, > some relief from his arduous efforts are warranted but I suggest he go out > and get mugged or raped or something equal in effect to the results of that > which the employment pimps have to offer and then come back to the list to > report > his satisfaction. Yes spam is annoying, but if you let it get you as upset as you appear to be, then you really need a shrink. The suggestion that raping and mugging is in anyway comparable to receiving annoying spam in your mailbox suggests to me you need a shrink. In a free and open marketplace, internet spam, junk mail, annoying commercials on TV, etc. are just a consequence of freedom. The interesting thing about internet culture is that it is always contradicting itself. Freedom of speech and digital expression has been a religious pursuit of many netizens, yet these same people want to control what people can and cannot post to a newsgroup. Porn must be protected, but spam must be destroyed? Making the argument that pornography on a newsgroup deserves more merit than recruiter spam puzzles me. For me I just hit that little delete key or else post to public newsgroups using an anonymous email address. Recruiter spam is better than no recruiter spam because if there were no recruiter spam then that would probably be an indication that there are no XML jobs available out there. When I was in school about 4 years ago, a group of the Java gurus from SUN came to my school to pitch the Java religion and one of the top engineers at SUN made a comment that 99% of the stuff on the internet is crap. Unsurprisingly, cable tv, newspapers and magazines all share the same qualities. My advice is to just take a chill pill and take Tim's comments in the context he put them in. Tyler xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Jun 17 19:24:37 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <14185.11427.826848.895457@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617132615.01863788@mail.muzmo.com> At 01:13 PM 6/17/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Tim Bray writes: > > Dammit, enough of these half-measures. I want a single, canonical > > schema for *everything* and I want it now! -Tim > ><!ELEMENT document ANY> > Actually, since ANY only applies to elements that are defined elsewhere in a DTD or schema, ... <schema model="open"> <elementType model="open" name="everything"></elementType> </schema> ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tyler at infinet.com Thu Jun 17 19:25:36 1999 From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML References: <A3A3B69F1E3FD211A35F00A0C9CDFEDA2F28B4@BERNT01> Message-ID: <37692F3A.88FB7FC0@infinet.com> regan@knowmed.com wrote: > Since I got it to and I don't think I have ever written a useful sentence on > either list, she must be just sending it to all posters. I thought it was a > mildly creative angle. (I also got a laugh out of it, recruiters just crack > me up.) > If anyone takes the job let us know how it goes! > > -Regan Actually, the really nasty thing most professional spammers do is to have a search engine index every public posting to every newgroup or listserv that they can find, and then resell those email addresses to other fellow spammers. The problem is that spamming for the most part is free and is one reason why E-Postage actually is a good idea if the recipient is compensated by the sender for receiving anonymous email. Otherwise your best defense is a delete key. Tyler xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu Jun 17 19:30:09 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: End of thread: Namespace URI address resources In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990617132615.01863788@mail.muzmo.com> References: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14185.11427.826848.895457@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990617132615.01863788@mail.muzmo.com> Message-ID: <14185.12426.134182.105594@localhost.localdomain> Murray Maloney writes: [in reply to my reply to Tim Bray's not-so-serious request for a universal schema] > Actually, since ANY only applies to elements that are defined > elsewhere in a DTD or schema, ... > > <schema model="open"> > <elementType model="open" name="everything"></elementType> > </schema> I think that's a fitting close to what has turned out to be a very long thread. So long, and thanks for all the fish, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Thu Jun 17 19:32:30 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:14 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML In-Reply-To: <37692F3A.88FB7FC0@infinet.com> References: <A3A3B69F1E3FD211A35F00A0C9CDFEDA2F28B4@BERNT01> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617133501.01985e90@mail.muzmo.com> OK. Enough is enough. It was easy enough to ignore the original post. Everything since then has been noise and clutter. In other words, shut up already! Regards, Murray ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 19:35:17 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? Message-ID: <00e601beb8e0$01115210$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net> >He goes beyond facts into beliefs about what is best for everyone's >information resources. Many of us have statements like that somewhere >in the archives. All I am saying is that calling markup a >cancer is hyperbole. It is a less than ideal but better >than UTF-8 way of getting certain jobs done that Ted did >not do. Those that did do it did a good job. Nelson's main objection to inline markup seems to be that it upsets byte counts; but this is because counting bytes is the basis of his counting system. I don't know of anyone else who has systems where counting bytes is important, so it does not seem a good general objection. There is a superficial problem, of course, that bytes are not characters and he seems to treat them interchangably: I don't see it that is is practical for internationlization reasons: "university" takes 11 bytes (including a space) in ASC II, 22 in UTF-16, and its Chinese equivalent takes 4 in Big 5 and 6 in UTF-8 and 4 in UTF-16. So the encoding can double the cost, and not be comparable between scripts. Using locale is no good to set costs because there are so many multilingual countries (i.e., Singapore with Chinese, English and Tamil). Using character properties adds the kind of overhead that he decries for XML. A more serious objection is that one can do already external markup with SGML or XML: HyTime was specifically created to allow indexing into any kind of object including plain text files and structured data. I don't know if XPointers will be capable of indexing into strings: indexing can be unreliable unless the kind of normalization of the text is known. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 19:40:35 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: detecting character set of an XML doc Message-ID: <00f301beb8e0$c665fbb0$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Dirk Germonpre <dirkg@tectrade.be> > If I'm writing an XML tool, how can I detect what character set is used for an XML document? I've read that for UTF-16, an encoding signature (xFEFF) is used at the beginning of the document. Is there a different encoding signature for each character set? If so, where can I find documentation on this? Character sets are determined by a sequence. First, the character family (signature) is detected: * UTf-16 little-endian (from the BOM) * UTF-16 big-endian (from the BOM) * EBCDIC family * ASCII family Then the encoding declaration is read, enough to read in the encoding attribute. > Where can I find encoders and decoders for C++ to convert to and from unicode? Try GNU libc's iconv() routine if you need a transcoding routines. That is available free. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 19:45:51 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? Message-ID: <010a01beb8e1$7d5f9100$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com> >As Paul Prescod has pointed out, however, in both cases the process is >really iterative: in a bottom-up approach, it's often useful to stop >and throw together a straw-man architecture to see if what we've done >so far makes sense together; in a top-down approach, it's often useful >to stop and throw together some proof-of-concept components, to see if >there will be any obvious implementation problems Good point. (In my book I point out that) Maler and el Anderloussi's method is top-down, then bottom up, with a little middle out. Theirs is the most well document formal methodology. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 17 20:35:09 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: More CDATA questions References: <87256792.00775487.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <376924E3.130752A3@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37694042.92212B1A@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > > > Would, for instance, it always be considered characters because its > > not just 'accidental whitespace'? > > Yes, indeed. Element content models allow only ordinary whitespace, > not CDATA-bracketed whitespace. Therefore, nothing can be both > "ignorable whitespace" and CDATA-bracketed at the same time. > > Clause 3.2.1 makes it clear that whitespace in element-content-model > elements must match the production S, which a CDATA section does not. Doesn't make it clear to me! :-) 2.7 sez "CDATA sections may occur anywhere character data may occur", and in 2.3 there is no restriction that it not appear within a CDATA section. QED; and a variety of other arguments conclude the same. For a few historical perspectives (and John, I noticed we have both maintained consistent positions on this issue :-) see: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Oct-1998/0536.html http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Oct-1998/0541.html http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Nov-1998/0000.html http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Nov-1998/0001.html And similar posts, mostly that in October 1998; the issue summarizes (IMHO) as a minor lack of clarity in how CDATA shows up. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 21:36:21 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Content Negotiation not enough for schemas (was Re: Namespace URI address resources) Message-ID: <014a01beb8f0$f1717900$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Murray Maloney <murray@muzmo.com> From: Rick Jelliffe >Using the namespace URI to be locate a schema does not preclude >the possibility of there being any number of schemas associated >with that URI. As I mentioned. This is just the self-describing/header-described problem again: should an XML document assume that all resources are made available over the Web, or should it support unplugged systems also? In the case of the XML encoding PI, it was decided that relying on Web mechanisms was not enough, because an XML document can have a valuable life before and after a WebServer. In any case, the only resolution system currently around for URIs is content negotiation, which relies on all schemas being at the same location and being of different MIME types, as I understand it. What about when the schemas are on unrelated servers or use the same schema language or when you want the schemas available from local "file:" URLs? >Nobody is proposing that a document has only *one* schema. >The mechanism is known in the biz as 'content negotiation'. >This is known to work for multiple languages and devices. See above. The other trouble with content negotiation is that it has to be supported at the browser level: the requesting agent has to send its preferences to the server. There is no (markup) mechanism to make these preferences part of the document. Has any vendor announced that they will support multiple schema validation through content negotiation in their browser or database product? Is it likely? Since we can assume that vendors will not support plurality of schemas in different schema languages at different locations suitable for different processing model (especially if the browser or datavase vendors are also schema-tool vendors), user will have put in PIs (or similar) in their code to indicate schemas for home-grown tools. If they want to provide open schema access, then these PIs will need to be in some common form. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 22:03:04 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Another reason why namespaces URLs should not be schemas Message-ID: <015701beb8f4$ac992040$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> If I am using XHTML and I decide to refine my document type so that headers must be inside divisions, what do I do (if namespace URLs can be resolved to schemas)? Presumably, I have to derive a new schema based on the old one, with a new URL; then I have to use that new URL as the namespace URL. Then IE 5 and everything that works by using the namespace URL to signify the operation of an element will be broke. This seems to me to be unworkable: if I make <html xmlns="http://rick.com.xx/my-html.xmlschema"> ... </html> then a rendering engine has to download my corpulent (not to mention grumous) XML schema before it can find out that in fact my element types are HTML. So it seems that overloading the function of the namespace URI to also be a schema URL would have a bad effect on XHTML with data islands etc, or on any DTD derived from DTDs that are built into the processor. It seems that the situation we are reaching is that the namespace prefix is being treated as unique for famous DTDs (e.g. how IE 5 treats html:) and that the URL is being used as a schema name. If people want to do this, that is fine, but it does not correspond to namespaces (in fact, it corresponds more to what I suggested in XML-Bind -- a simple prefixing system to make automated renaming more manageable and a way to bind names to schemas, except I suggested regular expression matching not just the prefix). Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jun 17 22:10:43 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: CDATA sections not valid in element content Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990617131244.0123eab0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:36 AM 6/17/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >> Clause 3.2.1 makes it clear that whitespace in element-content-model >> elements must match the production S, which a CDATA section does not. > >Doesn't make it clear to me! :-) This a known erratum in the XML spec. The public errata doc, when it is updated (Real Soon Now) will say that an empty or space-filled CDATA section in an element with an element content declaration is *not* valid; the justification being that this flies in the face of the intended use of CDATA sections, per the first paragraph of section 2.7. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 17 22:15:44 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: What should the resource of a namespace URL be? Message-ID: <016201beb8f6$706538a0$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> The resource (if any) located by a namespace URL should be a string giving the preferred prefix for that namespace. This takes the prefix out of the information set, but not out of circulation. It prevents what might be called "prefix entropy" which would happen when there is repeated cutting and pasting between different document types: nice systems can rewrite the header with the preferred form. For example, if I am cutting a section from a document with defaulted namespaces, and pasting it into a a document that uses a different namespace, an automated system will have to generate some prefix, maybe a random string. That would result in bad (for subsequent human editors) markup. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Thu Jun 17 22:36:55 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Content Negotiation not enough for schemas (was Re: Namespace URI address resources) In-Reply-To: <014a01beb8f0$f1717900$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9906172133190.23130-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > In any case, the only resolution system currently around for URIs is > content negotiation, which relies on all schemas being at the same > location and being of different MIME types, as I understand it. > What about when the schemas are on unrelated servers or use the > same schema language or when you want the schemas available from > local "file:" URLs? for eg. a 'hub' server containing only data on the variant versions could send HTTP 'moved temporarily/permenently' headers redirecting to other servers. Much like the purl.org system for general web indirection. I'd need to check the HTTP/1.1 spec to see if redirects can be w.r.t. particular variants of a resource, but this sounds feasible in principle. Dan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Thu Jun 17 23:08:36 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Variables Message-ID: <C10B7E3A3AC3D211804E0000B45EDA8407D4E3@pdc.imediation.com> Hi there, I'll be direct : Is there a way to insert Variable on XML document ? What I have in mind look like 'every where you need to put a variable you'll insert a 'variable' tag'. Suppose for instance that you have the following XML : ... <merchant> <address> <variable name="address"> </address> ... </merchant> ... Now, when you're processing the document, a context mechanism give the value for any 'variable name'. That way the context mechanism resolve, every time it see a 'variable' element, the value corresponding to the name, so that at the, the document will look like: ... <merchant> <address>street address value</address> ... </merchant> ... where street address value has replaced the 'variable' element. Any comment ? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murray at muzmo.com Fri Jun 18 00:01:12 1999 From: murray at muzmo.com (Murray Maloney) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Another reason why namespaces URLs should not be schemas In-Reply-To: <015701beb8f4$ac992040$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990617180501.006b6e3c@mail.muzmo.com> We have addressed this problem in XML Schema with the import/include distinction. Please take a look. At 05:07 AM 6/18/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >If I am using XHTML and I decide to refine my >document type so that headers must be inside divisions, >what do I do (if namespace URLs can be resolved to >schemas)? > >Presumably, I have to derive a new schema based on >the old one, with a new URL; then I have to use that new >URL as the namespace URL. Then IE 5 and everything >that works by using the namespace URL to signify the >operation of an element will be broke. > >This seems to me to be unworkable: if I make > ><html xmlns="http://rick.com.xx/my-html.xmlschema"> >... ></html> >then a rendering engine has to download my corpulent (not to >mention grumous) XML schema before it can find out that >in fact my element types are HTML. > >So it seems that overloading the function of the namespace >URI to also be a schema URL would have a bad effect on >XHTML with data islands etc, or on any DTD derived from >DTDs that are built into the processor. > >It seems that the situation we are reaching is that the >namespace prefix is being treated as unique for famous >DTDs (e.g. how IE 5 treats html:) and that the >URL is being used as a schema name. If people want >to do this, that is fine, but it does not correspond to namespaces >(in fact, it corresponds more to what I suggested in >XML-Bind -- a simple prefixing system to make >automated renaming more manageable and a way to >bind names to schemas, except I suggested regular expression >matching not just the prefix). > >Rick Jelliffe > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > ---------------------------------------------------------- Murray Maloney, Esq. Phone: (905) 509-9120 Muzmo Communication Inc. Fax: (905) 509-8637 671 Cowan Circle Email: murray@muzmo.com Pickering, Ontario Web: http://www.muzmo.com Canada, L1W 3K6 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at valinet.com Fri Jun 18 01:16:17 1999 From: abrahams at valinet.com (Paul W. Abrahams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Different element references in same namespace Message-ID: <3769834E.A397BA41@valinet.com> I've found what appears to be a problem with the way that the namespace spec treats different references to a single element within a namespace. Consider the following document: <elt xmlns:foo = "file:///bar" xmlns:goo = "file:///bar" xmlns = "file:///bar > <foo:gertie/> <goo:gertie> Faugh! </goo:gertie> <gertie> <bibble/> </gertie> </elt> According to Appendix A.3 of the spec, `foo:gertie', `goo:gertie', and `gertie' all have the same expanded element type, namely: <ExpEType type="gertie" ns="file:///bar"> They therefore all belong to the same namespace. The question then arises: do the three elements have the same type in the XML 1.0 sense, and if so, how ought they be declared in the DTD? Should there be one declaration for all three or three declarations, one for each? Note that the ``natural'' declarations for the three elements are all different: <!ELEMENT foo:gertie EMPTY> <!ELEMENT goo:gertie (#PCDATA)> <!ELEMENT gertie (bibble?)> Furthermore, if interoperability is a consideration, the EMPTY declaration should be used if and only if the elements are empty. Paul Abrahams abrahams@acm.org xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 18 01:56:06 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Different element references in same namespace In-Reply-To: <3769834E.A397BA41@valinet.com> References: <3769834E.A397BA41@valinet.com> Message-ID: <14185.35459.104788.742051@localhost.localdomain> Paul W. Abrahams writes: [on three elements with different prefixes but belonging to the same namespace] > The question then arises: do the three elements have the same type > in the XML 1.0 sense, and if so, how ought they be declared in the > DTD? Should there be one declaration for all three or three > declarations, one They are different element types in the XML 1.0 sense, but they all have the same name in the Namespaces sense. Namespaces is a separate layer above XML 1.0, and doesn't change the earlier spec. The same thing could happen with architectural forms: <foo myarch="bar"/> <hack myarch="bar"/> <bar myarch="bar"/> These are all instantiations of the "bar" architectural form in the "myarch" architecture, but each needs a separate declaration in the DTD. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Fri Jun 18 03:15:55 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources References: <3.0.32.19990617090226.0124e2b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <376998DC.2BEE@hiwaay.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 11:17 AM 6/17/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >The main point, I think, is that it would be a mistake to try to force > >any kind of 1:1 relationship onto XML documents and their > >schemas/stylesheets, etc. by using the Namespace URI to locate a > >single, canonical schema. > > Dammit, enough of these half-measures. I want a single, canonical > schema for *everything* and I want it now! -Tim Ok! POOF!!!! <!ELEMENT TheUniverseAndEverything ANY > It is sooooo easy to say... len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Fri Jun 18 03:16:12 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:15 2004 Subject: Inline markup considered harmful? References: <00e601beb8e0$01115210$35f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <37699C83.17E2@hiwaay.net> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > > Nelson's main objection to inline markup seems to be that it upsets > byte counts; but this is because counting bytes is the basis of > his counting system. I don't know of anyone else who has systems > where counting bytes is important, so it does not seem a good general > objection. Right. I've not seen any systems based on tumblers even while the idea is intrigueing. > A more serious objection is that one can do already external markup with > SGML > or XML: HyTime was specifically created to allow indexing into any kind > of object including plain text files and structured data. I don't know > if > XPointers will be capable of indexing into strings: indexing can be > unreliable > unless the kind of normalization of the text is known. Precisely. What HyTime speaks to is the classification of the general forms of hyperlinking and indexing. One has to choose which form suits a job, where is the highest target granularity necessary, and what is the cost in both process and in disturbing the original text, or creating a new one. It was my hope that once the political agendas mellowed, that work such as HyTime, TEI, etc. would be synthesized and realized as the XML set. So far, still waiting but not idle. Relational tables with URLs do a nice job for many practical cases. ASP sucks but it works. I get excited by having such tools for so cheap when I remember just how expensive the GE CALS system was to build, how close we came with IADS, and so forth. The toys are much better now and there are lots more people using them. Good times, really. len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbullard at hiwaay.net Fri Jun 18 03:15:57 1999 From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> <376854EC.6835@hiwaay.net> <14185.3218.512310.594578@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37699850.1919@hiwaay.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Just so, but imagine if we had all waited to start writing DTDs until > ISO approved a master document architecture that would govern all DTDs > in the SGML and XML document space (kudos to HyTime for trying, > though). When I first saw DTDs (ISO 8879 draft), I thought that was what it was: a means for creating master document architectures, that is, a means to express what was legal in a family of documents. It is hard this far into the post-HyTime era, to remember why that was so earth-shattering, but I was elated to finally see a standard that would solve so many of the document process/processing problems of the time when the closest thing we had to it was Digital Standard Runoff. So, there was no waiting; there was a long learning curve in which the warts of it began to appear. Oddly, the warts weren't all in the notorious CS short-comings of the parse model; they were: 1. The Cost of the software to support it 2. The WYSIWYG Wars 3. The difficulty of explaining to the writers of the era why anyone would want this. "This SGML stuff will be the death of us." Then two years later, "This SGML stuff is working." Then ten years later; "This SGML stuff saved our bacon, cost-wise." My point is, I agree, one can't wait. One makes the assessment of the available tools, does a round, looks at the results, and adjusts. From my perspective, HTML has been the GreatSitAround. We repeated a large part of history watching everyone adopt a design we had already discarded. However, that is also part of the cycling. Just like when newbies hit a list, having a much larger community inevitably meant we went back up the learning curve; from blues to jazz to blues to rock to blues again. > This is the point that I (and others) have been making in this > discussion: a top-down approach (start with the master architecture) > can work for something like a new parts-management system for > ACME.com; a bottom-up approach (start with the components, such as > individual specs and DTDs) is pretty much required in an open and > fast-changing system like the Web. I tend to agree, but it isn't changing *that* fast anymore. There are lots of reasons, but mainly, I think the vendor-wash out has finally settled the designs down. There are problems in the details but they are similar to and sometimes the same problems of say, SQL, "% or *", " or '; escape or crash. The argument about "does namespace point to schema" is indicative. Of course it can. One needs no permission to do that. Should that be formal? Heck no, because as you and Tim point out, there can be many things that need pointing to, and of course, we come back to the venerable "what is a resource" debate. Well, what does one need it to be? A registry is a registry whether it is a local or global database, a table of URLs, a table of names, and so on. > As Paul Prescod has pointed out, however, in both cases the process is > really iterative: in a bottom-up approach, it's often useful to stop > and throw together a straw-man architecture to see if what we've done > so far makes sense together; in a top-down approach, it's often useful > to stop and throw together some proof-of-concept components, to see if > there will be any obvious implementation problems. The difference > comes simply from which of the two is formalized. True and there is both sense (good design) and nonsense (politics of who's zoomin' who) in that. Still, I think the markup community overall understands its particular problems and will do well to take a measure of the work to figure out what is needed for the next decade. I thought that was what XML was about and that is why I supported it. The politics of it has always disturbed me, but nevertheless, the work is necessary and is getting good results. I did not think I would ever see graphics coded in markup, but it is happening. Now we do another five years of finding out if syntax unification pays the predicted dividends and what more is needed. The Information Set work, HyTime, Groves, all of that have to be looked at in the critical light of the XML payoff. Is it there? len xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Fri Jun 18 08:33:35 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs Message-ID: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> By "nested DTDs" I assume you mean making use of one DTD's vocabulary with a document that makes use of another DTD's vocabulary. It is possible if the DTDs are so designed. Imagine that you have a "report" DTD in the file report.dtd: <!ELEMENT report (title,paragraph+)> <!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)> <!ELEMENT paragraph (#PCDATA|emph)*> <!ELEMENT emph (#PCDATA)> And you also have a "person" DTD in the file person.dtd: <!ELEMENT person (firstname, lastname)> <!ELEMENT firstname (#PCDATA)> <!ELEMENT lastname (#PCDATA)> It is easy to make a new DTD that combined the vocabularies in the file combined.dtd: <!ENTITY % report "report.dtd"> <!ENTITY % person "person.dtd"> %report; %person; Ah, you say, but how do I actually use both of these together? How do I allow, for example, a person to be marked up in a paragraph? You can't override the content specification for paragraph so that combined.dtd reads: <!ENTITY % report "report.dtd"> <!ENTITY % person "person.dtd"> <!ELEMENT paragraph (#PCDATA|person|emph)*> %report; <!-- this is an error --> %person; What you *can* do, or rather what the designer of the report DTD can do, is write report.dtd as: <!ELEMENT report (title,paragraph+)> <!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)> <!ENTITY % paragraph.ext ""> <!ELEMENT paragraph (#PCDATA| %para.ext; emph)*> <!ELEMENT emph (#PCDATA)> This makes the content model of the paragraph element type extensible. Because entity declarations can be overridden (by declaring a new literal value earlier) you can have a combined.dtd: <!ENTITY % report "report.dtd"> <!ENTITY % person "person.dtd"> <!ENTITY % paragraph.ext "person |"> %report; %person; I hope this helps. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stevek at fineline-software.co.uk Fri Jun 18 08:26:31 1999 From: stevek at fineline-software.co.uk (Steve Kearon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML Message-ID: <01beb953$8875d3c0$bad393c3@stevekea> We went through the same process as you: having used MFC serlialization, XML sounded like it had various advantages. We adopted XML, but use an event-driven parser instead of the DOM. This has the benefits of speed + code size. Being event-driven tends to force you towards a one-pass process when reading the application state in - but that's generally a good fit for serializing application state. We simply stopped callng MFC's open/save CArchive stuff, and called our own routines. For input (which must be parsed), we use expat (from James Clark) built in a DLL with a small C++ wrapper to make life easier. The wrapper class represents an "add-in" to any class to make it XML-parsing capable. The wrapper also permits one XML-parsing class to pass responsibility to another class (ie I maintain a stack of handlers). This facilitates (eg) my <person> element handler to pass control to a <address> element handler whenever it spots an address. By and large, one class deals with one element type, but that's not a hard and fast rule. For output, we implemeted a simple output stream that formats element names, formats various types of attributes, converts '<' to literals, converts from ANSI to utf8, etc. Typically, a class name equates to an element, a class data member equates to an attribute. We haven't (yet) used element content at all. Nothing religious - it just never seemed appropriate. When opening a file, we tolerate quite a lot (eg someone could add attributes/elements that we'll ignore). To conserve file space, we normally write files in "compact" mode, where only attributes that differ from the default setting (ie the constructor initialised setting) get saved. This saves oodles of disk space. A "verbose" mode is also available where everythig gets saved. There are alternatives to expat, but expat offers everything we need at present. An alternate C++ wrapper class can be found at http://www.oofile.com.au/ I'd be glad to go into details of this stuff (including sharing the code). I suspect it would make a nice little article for somewhere like www.codeguru.com, but (like most folk) I can never find the time. Steve Kearon FineLine Software -----Original Message----- From: Ketil Z Malde <ketil@ii.uib.no> To: XML-Dev Mailing list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Date: 17 June 1999 12:06 Subject: Storing application state as XML > >Hi, > >I must admit I don't have the time to follow this list as diligently >as I'd like, so it is possible that my questions have been answered >already. I'll submit them nevertheless. :-) > >We have a rather complex application which stores its state using the >standard MFC serialize stuff (well, actually a somewhat hacked >version, but that's beside the point). Now, this limits our freedom >in (or at least severely complicates) redesigning internal class >structure while maintaining backwards file compatibility, and we've >been pondering an XML format instead. > >There are of course other advantages, like accessing the information >from other applications, or generating HTML and whatnot. > >The question is whether this, in general, is a good idea, and whether >people have done this, and if so, to what degree of success, and by >what methods. > >I can see two ways of doing this: > >1) Use a DOM-based document, which can be passed around, much the way >a CArchive class is, and modifying the Serialize() to fill in the >relevant nodes in the document tree > > or > >2) Encapsulating the document (DOM or otherwise) in a separate class, >which traverses the application's classes and picks whatever >information is relevant in whatever sequence it desires. > >The advantage of model 1 is a structure quite similar to what already >exists, most of the code base could be left alone, I think. > >On the other hand, if our existing classes are well designed, all the >relevant information should be accessible through the public: >interfaces, and it should be easier to build the document in a >flexible way. E.g. the placement of various information might not be >obvious from the class' perspective. > >So, before we jump the gun, I'd like to hear from people who have done >this, and are willing to share their experiences, or otherwise >contribute suggestions and ideas. > >Thanks for listening, > >-kzm >-- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Fri Jun 18 09:43:51 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Building the "World's Largest Portal" with XML In-Reply-To: Tyler Baker's message of "Thu, 17 Jun 1999 13:19:20 -0400" References: <000801beb8e0$37e210e0$0a000a0a@csg> <37692E18.A6E6F7D5@infinet.com> Message-ID: <KETIL-86d7ytdhvk.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> Tyler Baker <tyler@infinet.com> writes: > Yes spam is annoying, but if you let it get you as upset as you appear Spam coming from an otherwise serious source makes it difficult to filter out. I happen to want to discuss - or at least listen in on - xml stuff. If the xml-dev list condones spam, it gets very hard to build a decent filter against it, and reasonable discussion gets drowned in the noise. > In a free and open marketplace, internet spam, junk mail, annoying > commercials on TV, etc. are just a consequence of freedom. Yeah, sure. Like your college room mate playing loud music all night before your big exam, or sleazy phone calls in the middle of the night. Like farting at the dinner table, spam is a total lack of courtesy and respect for the recipients. I'm going to excercise *my* freedom of speech by reacting to spam by forwarding copies of the message to the people responsible for the domain (listed in the "whois" database), and the people responsible for that domain's net access, and the people responsible for any URL or similar reference that happens to be in the message, plus any postmasters along the Received: way. At least. Sorry about the rant, now don't yank my chain again! -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dirkg at tectrade.be Fri Jun 18 10:06:25 1999 From: dirkg at tectrade.be (Dirk Germonpre) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: XML parser available for navigating a DTD Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990618100620.009809b0@relay.tectrade.be> Hello, 1) I would like to use an XML parser to create XML documents conform to some DTD. Is it possible to parse a DTD and navigate the parse tree in order to create an XML document on the fly, like it is possible to parse an XML document and run through it using the DOM interface. This would allow me to automate the creation of XML documents from some external data source, conform to some DTD. Does anyone know of such a parser being available? 2) I am not sure what language to use for building an XML tool. The unicode aspect and the availability of XML tools in Java drives me towards Java, the performance aspect drives me to C++. I wonder how much difference there is in performance between a Java parser and a C++ parser. Can anyone give me some numbers in performance difference? Thanks in advance. ---------------------------------- Dirk Germonpr? - dirkg@tectrade.be Tectrade NV Pieter de Conincklaan 33 B-8200 Brugge Belgium xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From akwheel at talos.org Fri Jun 18 10:48:31 1999 From: akwheel at talos.org (Andrew Wheeler) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's Message-ID: <11AF09C0F118D311B6F200805F71B1BEBA80@tardis> > ----Original Message----- > From: Rick Jelliffe [SMTP:ricko@allette.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 3:04 PM > > From: Andrew Wheeler <akwheel@talos.org> >> (We do > >> not really want to spend time writing bespoke code, which we have > to > >> maintain). > > Err...what about HTML? > > You write the DTD in an HTML editor with some JavaScript popup links > on > each interesting keyword. > > To generate the text version of the DTD, SaveAs... to text. > > You can hypertext link to any part of the DTD and you don't need to > buy > any tools, or sit around waiting for future DTD-in-instance-schema > tools > to be marketed. > > [Andrew Wheeler] Your solution seems to be exactly what I don't > want, i.e. writing bespoke code that we have to maintain. Maybe I > didn't phrase my question correctly. I'll try again without some of > the waffle (well a bit of it). > We have a data model in an XML DTD. We need to describe the elements and attributes of the data model (context, usage, allowable values, examples, CM info etc.). We would like a tool (COTS fully supported for clients peace of mind) that will allow us to hold the model and descriptions in one place. Separation of the model and the descriptions will give us a maintenance headache as we expect the model to evolve over time. This is our first requirment. We would also like there to be HTML output so our developers can navigate the model, see the descriptions of the elements and attributes and not buy the tool, again if possible (Rational Rose 98i for UML models does this). Our second requirement. We are currently using Near and Far, which does not do exactly what we want (allows comments at a single level, i.e. attribute list comment, not element comment and attribute comment), and are mystified at the lack of GOOD tool support for a technology that is heralded as the saviour of the web!! From your response, and others, then I think maybe we are asking too much, also given the fact that XML Schema is on the way this limited tool support may change direction anyway! Are we being unreasonable? Regards Andrew > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Fri Jun 18 10:54:59 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: Variables Message-ID: <01BEB978.F9A1D7E0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Sebastien Sahuc wrote: > I'll be direct : Is there a way to insert Variable on XML document ? You can use an entity. For example, declare the entity in your DTD: <!ENTITY myaddress "123 Main St"> and reference the entity in the body of your document: <merchant> <address>&myaddress;</address> ... </merchant> When the document is parsed, the parser replaces the entity with its value and what your application sees is: <merchant> <address>123 Main St</address> ... </merchant> The above shows an internal entity, which means that the entity value is stored in the document. The entity could also be external, meaning it is stored in any sort of an external resource. The simplest case is when it is stored in an external file, so your declaration might look like: <!ENTITY myaddress SYSTEM "addressfile.txt"> However, the system id doesn't need to point to a file -- it could also point to something like a CGI program to retrieve the entity from a database. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM Fri Jun 18 11:35:17 1999 From: RKarthik at CHN.CTS-CORP.COM (Raghavendra, Karthik (CTS)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: reading xml data island with java applet Message-ID: <15BC1866E5CFD111900E00A0C9A6F35E013E480B@CTSINCSISXUC> Hi Robert, The solution lies in the Java env. rather than XML. I rewrote the applet to read the data island by referencing its html file and then creating the XML Document. I then used the earlier code to do the display bit. Karthik rkarthik@chn.cts-corp.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Robert Chu [SMTP:sasrcc@wnt.sas.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 15, 1999 2:55 AM > To: 'RKarthik@chn.cts-corp.com' > Subject: reading xml data island with java applet > > Hi Karthik, > > I saw your email posted in xml-dev regarding reading xml data island with > applet. I have the very same question. If you got the answer personally, > would you please forward me a copy? Thanks very much. > > Robert Chu > robert.chu@sas.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990618/1d42ce97/attachment.htm From adrian.brogan at harbinger.com Fri Jun 18 12:18:56 1999 From: adrian.brogan at harbinger.com (Adrian Brogan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: elements that split character data Message-ID: <1587F0336C64D211A2C100A0C9E4B16E531CA8@manexc.man.harbinger.co.uk> Can anyone give me a definitive answer to this scenario ? Consider the following xml <one> This is some text <two> bulrb blurb blurb </two> and some more text. </one> Is the positioning of the character data in element <one> significant ? I.e. Would the following fragment of xml be considered the same as the one above ? <one> This is some text and some more text. <two> bulrb blurb blurb </two> </one> Thanks Brogue ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Adrian Brogan Harbinger UK, Quay West, Trafford Wharf Road, Wharfside, Manchester, M17 1HH Tel: +44 161 872 2022 Fax: +44 161 872 2024 (mailto:adrian.brogan@harbinger.com) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From north at Synopsys.COM Fri Jun 18 12:37:34 1999 From: north at Synopsys.COM (Simon North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: elements that split character data In-Reply-To: <1587F0336C64D211A2C100A0C9E4B16E531CA8@manexc.man.harbinger.co.uk> Message-ID: <199906181039.MAA17058@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com> Adrian Brogan asked: > Can anyone give me a definitive answer to this scenario ? > > Consider the following xml > > <one> > This is some text > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > and some more text. > </one> > > Is the positioning of the character data in element <one> significant ? > I.e. Would the following fragment of xml be considered the same as the one > above ? > > <one> > This is some text > and some more text. > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > </one> > It's only my opinion, but I'd say there's not practical difference since both versions can be covered by the same DTD declarations: <!ELEMENT one ((#PCDATA | two)*)> <!ELEMENT two (#PCDATA)> Unless I'm mistaken, you could enforce a difference in SGML but in XML -- because of the enforced order of mixed content elements (see the declaration of element one) -- you aren't allowed to declare the distinction. Simon North xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Fri Jun 18 12:40:52 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:16 2004 Subject: elements that split character data Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19C4@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Brogan [SMTP:adrian.brogan@harbinger.com] > > Can anyone give me a definitive answer to this scenario ? > > Consider the following xml > > <one> > This is some text > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > and some more text. > </one> > > Is the positioning of the character data in element <one> significant ? > I.e. Would the following fragment of xml be considered the same as the one > above ? > > <one> > This is some text > and some more text. > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > </one> > No - they are considered quite different. Just as they would be in a HTML processor, or a delimited file. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mpm28577 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk Fri Jun 18 12:51:18 1999 From: mpm28577 at GlaxoWellcome.co.uk (Mansell, Mark P) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: elements that split character data Message-ID: <A764E60D43E5D211B0CD0000F840F7885AB45E@ukz268.ggr.co.uk> I would believ that they are different becuase of their parse trees. For example, the fist fragment would be : ,--This is some text <one> ---+---<two>---blurb blurb blurb `--and some more text while the second fragmentlooks like this: ,--This is some text <one> ---+---and some more text `--<two>---blurb blurb blurb Traversing the trees would give quite different results. Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Adrian Brogan [SMTP:adrian.brogan@harbinger.com] > Sent: 18 June 1999 10:57 > To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' > Subject: elements that split character data > > Can anyone give me a definitive answer to this scenario ? > > Consider the following xml > > <one> > This is some text > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > and some more text. > </one> > > Is the positioning of the character data in element <one> significant ? > I.e. Would the following fragment of xml be considered the same as the one > above ? > > <one> > This is some text > and some more text. > <two> > bulrb blurb blurb > </two> > </one> > > > Thanks > Brogue > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------ > Adrian Brogan > Harbinger UK, Quay West, Trafford Wharf Road, Wharfside, > Manchester, M17 1HH > Tel: +44 161 872 2022 > Fax: +44 161 872 2024 > (mailto:adrian.brogan@harbinger.com) > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri Jun 18 13:52:21 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Different element references in same namespace Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF18@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Paul Abrahams> I've found what appears to be a problem with the way that the > namespace spec treats different references to a single element within a > namespace. ... > The question then arises: do the three elements have the same type in > the XML 1.0 sense, and if so, how ought they be declared in the DTD? Don't use DTDs and Namespaces within 100 metres of each other, the combination is explosive. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri Jun 18 15:08:04 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Dangerous Combinations (was: RE: Different element references in same namespace) In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF18@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF18@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <14186.17564.548884.985881@localhost.localdomain> Kay Michael writes: > Don't use DTDs and Namespaces within 100 metres of each other, the > combination is explosive. "A before O, or up you will blow..." Actually, sometimes we do need to do a bit of welding in the computer world, so there's no way to avoid using dangerous substances together. Just make sure you know what you're doing, first, and always wear safety goggles. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu Fri Jun 18 16:31:01 1999 From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> Message-ID: <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> James Tauber wrote: > What you *can* do, or rather what the designer of the report DTD can do, is > write report.dtd as: > > <!ELEMENT report (title,paragraph+)> > <!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)> > <!ENTITY % paragraph.ext ""> > <!ELEMENT paragraph (#PCDATA| %para.ext; emph)*> > <!ELEMENT emph (#PCDATA)> Just for the record, this isn't entirely okay. You're violating a few "for interoperability" constraints. First off, the empty parameter entity replacement text is no good in a content model. Secondly, even if you replace it with something like <!ENTITY % paragraph.ext "stuff |">, that's not strictly okay either, unless you are tricky and cut and paste tokens by defining them all inside an internal parameter entity. This ugly mess will actually pass muster: <!ELEMENT report (title,paragraph+)> <!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)> <!ENTITY % para.ext "stuff |"> <!ENTITY % paradecl "<!ELEMENT paragraph (#PCDATA| %para.ext; emph)*>"> %paradecl; <!ELEMENT emph (#PCDATA)> <!ELEMENT stuff (#PCDATA)> I'm always wondering why all this "for interoperability" language is in the spec. It's hard to know what weight to assign something that's neither legal nor illegal - or something that's technically valid, but discouraged in some usage contexts that aren't very clearly defined in the spec. -- Richard Goerwitz PGP key fingerprint: C1 3E F4 23 7C 33 51 8D 3B 88 53 57 56 0D 38 A0 For more info (mail, phone, fax no.): finger richard@goon.stg.brown.edu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org Fri Jun 18 16:51:27 1999 From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML In-Reply-To: <KETIL-86yahjdoxo.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no>; from Ketil Z Malde on Thu, Jun 17, 1999 at 01:52:35PM +0200 References: <KETIL-86yahjdoxo.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> Message-ID: <19990618105304.E13552@w3.org> > I must admit I don't have the time to follow this list as diligently > as I'd like, so it is possible that my questions have been answered > already. I'll submit them nevertheless. :-) I suggest you have a look at Raph Levien DOM proposal for GNOME desktop: http://www.levien.com/gnome/domination.html and the related documents. Daniel -- [Yes, I have moved back to France !] Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes | Today's Bookmarks : Tel : +33 476 615 257 | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind, Fax : +33 476 615 207 | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML, http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 18 16:58:24 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> Message-ID: <376A5EC8.3D4E4EB@locke.ccil.org> Richard Goerwitz scripsit: > I'm always wondering why all this "for interoperability" language is > in the spec. Probably because people believed that SGML tools would be fairly important in XML work, at least in the beginning. Except for nsgmls as a validity checker, I don't believe that turned out to be the case. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 18 17:08:07 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: "For Interoperability" Message-ID: <376A6133.F1B280D9@locke.ccil.org> Here's another of my lists. This one is of those things that are mildly discouraged in XML because they aren't interoperable with old SGML tools. 1. If an element is declared EMPTY, always use <tag/> rather than <tag></tag>. 2. If an element is not declared EMPTY but has in fact no content, always use <tag></tag> rather than <tag/>. 3. Don't reference parameter entities in content models that are empty, or begin or end with "|" or ",". 4. Don't use multiple ATTLIST declarations for a given element type. 5. Don't declare an attribute in more than one ATTLIST declaration. 6. Don't use ATTLIST declarations that don't declare any attributes. 7. Don't declare two different enumerated attributes that have overlapping possible values. 8. Always declare the entities amp, lt, gt, quot, and apos if you reference them. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 18 17:17:09 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: "For Interoperability" References: <376A6133.F1B280D9@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <376A636A.584B99A4@locke.ccil.org> John Cowan blundered: > 3. Don't reference parameter entities in content models that > are empty, or begin or end with "|" or ",". Of course, what I meant was: 3. In content models, don't reference parameter entities that are empty, or begin or end with "|" or ",". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri Jun 18 17:51:56 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990618085210.01216e70@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:59 AM 6/18/99 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >Probably because people believed that SGML tools would be fairly >important in XML work, at least in the beginning. Except for nsgmls >as a validity checker, I don't believe that turned out to be the case. Hmm, except maybe the editor vendors - I noticed hastily-lettered "XML" flags lashed to the masts of SoftQuad, ArborText, Stilo, etc etc etc -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri Jun 18 17:51:55 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990618085113.012148a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:30 AM 6/18/99 -0400, Richard L. Goerwitz wrote: >I'm always wondering why all this "for interoperability" language is >in the spec. It's hard to know what weight to assign something that's >neither legal nor illegal - or something that's technically valid, but >discouraged in some usage contexts that aren't very clearly defined in >the spec. When XML was created, there was no XML software, but there was a considerable array of existing SGML software. If you follow all the for-interoperability rules, your XML docs should work just fine with pre-1996 SGML software. That's all. I *think* that's what the spec says: for interoperability [Definition:] A non-binding recommendation included to increase the chances that XML documents can be processed by the existing installed base of SGML processors which predate the WebSGML Adaptations Annex to ISO 8879. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri Jun 18 18:20:39 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> <376A5EC8.3D4E4EB@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <376A427C.AFBDCB15@prescod.net> John Cowan wrote: > > Probably because people believed that SGML tools would be fairly > important in XML work, at least in the beginning. Except for nsgmls > as a validity checker, I don't believe that turned out to be the case. XML ended up breaking too many other SGML rules for this to happen. The empty end tag syntax was the most serious example but there are others. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri Jun 18 18:44:57 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> <376A5EC8.3D4E4EB@locke.ccil.org> <376A427C.AFBDCB15@prescod.net> Message-ID: <376A77E6.DF14FF54@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > XML ended up breaking too many other SGML rules for this to happen. The > empty end tag syntax was the most serious example but there are others. This is a myth. As http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-sgml-xml says: # NET delimiters can be used only to close an empty element. In SGML # without the Web SGML Adaptations Annex, the NET delimiter # is declared as />. With this approach, XML is not allowing null # end-tags and is allowing net-enabling start-tags only for elements # with no end-tag. # # In SGML with the Web SGML Adaptations Annex, there # is a separate NESTC (net-enabling start tag close) delimiter. # This allows the XML <e/> syntax to be handled as a combination # of a net-enabling start-tag <e/ and a null end-tag >. # With this approach, XML is allowing a net-enabling start-tag only # when immediately followed by a null end-tag. In short, XML empty tags are proper SGML, including pre-1996 SGML, with some side constraints eliminating non-XML flexibilities like "<foo/bogus content>", which "nsgmls -xml" duly complains about. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri Jun 18 19:00:00 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> <376792AE.2C82DE20@prescod.net> <14183.39487.992533.773762@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376A6CB4.BD277D96@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > I am quite comfortable helping to design a data model for XML, because > XML *as a language* is a closed system; I am not (yet) comfortable > helping to design a data model for the Web in general. Perhaps we > have been misunderstanding each-other. Going back to square one: my assertion is that (useful!) languages are encodings for concepts. XML is a language (primarily) for describing elements and attributes. We can only figure out (cumulatively) if the language is a good encoding for the concept if we have communicated and agreed upon the concept first. So if we thought through elements and attributes first, for example, we would probably not have designed SG/XML with its limited attribute construct. But people prefer things that are concrete so they rush to the language first. In OO terms they implement their objects before they have figured out their object model. Thus we have URLs and URIs but no formal definition of what they heck they are addressing. Do I think that there should be a data model for the whole web? If there were a formal definition for "the Web" then I could then profer an opinion as to whether a data model for it is possible. I *do* think that we could develop a formal, extensible data model for addressing (URLs) on the Internet. Many other interesting data models and languages would build on that (RDF, XLink, schemas, etc.). The higher level models would grow organically. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri Jun 18 19:40:53 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> <376A5EC8.3D4E4EB@locke.ccil.org> <376A427C.AFBDCB15@prescod.net> <376A77E6.DF14FF54@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <376A6FE8.BE3C296B@prescod.net> John Cowan wrote: > > Paul Prescod wrote: > > > XML ended up breaking too many other SGML rules for this to happen. The > > empty end tag syntax was the most serious example but there are others. > > This is a myth. As http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-sgml-xml says: I'm sorry. I was speaking loosely. I meant to say that the empty end tag syntax broke almost every tool except the one you mentioned: SP and those that were built on top of it. Furthermore, since the most interesting and difficult to build tools often EMIT XML, you have the problem of trying to get them to emit the variant empty end tags (even if they were built on SP). Even the <foo></foo> syntax doesn't help this problem because the tools don't know to emit it. Given that this one change broke almost everything, and given that the whitespace, hex char ref etc. changes ended up requiring an SGML TC, XML didn't end up being very SGML compatible in theory or practice in the end. In 20-20 hindsight we should have fixed other things like mixed content rules, keyword names, etc. Still, the SGML compatibility requirement gave us some focus that is missing in e.g. the linking working group. Were it not for that requirement we might have felt the urge to start again at square one: "What if we used parentheses as delimiters...and attributes could have attributes...and..." We might still be designing version 1.0. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Fri Jun 18 20:31:33 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Interoperability (was " Nested DTDs") Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2779CC@MDYNYCMSX1> >>Probably because people believed that SGML tools would be fairly >>important in XML work, at least in the beginning. Except for nsgmls >>as a validity checker, I don't believe that turned out to be the case. >Hmm, except maybe the editor vendors - I noticed hastily-lettered >"XML" flags lashed to the masts of SoftQuad, ArborText, Stilo, >etc etc etc (and FrameMaker+SGML...) Once we add Omnimark to this list of SGML tools, I think it shows that it *did* turn out to be the case. xml-dev has focused on brand new tools developed for XML development, especially around Java and Python, but while these were being assembled from the ground up, many tools already used in large production systems were ready to hit the ground running with XML, and did. It wasn't always simple--some tools didn't understand James Clark's XML SGML declaration as they should have, requiring some tweaking--but it worked, and people got work done. Because they were essentially processing one more flavor of SGML, it was hard to put the kind of "groundbreaking app!" spin on them that got them the publicity of more high profile XML applications, but they're out there. It also made the transition from SGML to XML much, much smoother to implement for shops who saw an advantage in making the migration. Again, while there was no reason for such operations to make the trade press, there are plenty of them out there, and it has speeded XML's growth. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ snee.com> "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ snee.com> "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Fri Jun 18 20:41:27 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: supporting unicode in XML tools Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2779CD@MDYNYCMSX1> >I'm going to write some XML tools. How can I support both UTF-8 and UTF-16 >at the same time? Am I better of writing XML software in C++ or Java with >respect to supporting unicode? It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is Meant for Java" at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/06/fuchs/fuchs.html for background. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ snee.com> see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arthur.rother at ovidius.com Fri Jun 18 21:58:32 1999 From: arthur.rother at ovidius.com (Arthur Rother) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:17 2004 Subject: Variables In-Reply-To: <C10B7E3A3AC3D211804E0000B45EDA8407D4E3@pdc.imediation.com> Message-ID: <4.1.19990618152640.0096c810@mail.jps.net> Hi, I once wrote a program for a company. The program's job was to fill a container (an xml file with your kind of variables) with data. The user of that program was given a table view of all variables and the user had to optionaly specify a file containig the variables value, or just insert data. Some other data was inserted automatically from a defaults file (also xml file). You need to have some kind of API, with which you can transform the document and replace each occurrence of a variable element with your value. I used MetaMorphosis (http://www.ovidius.com, free for linux, a demo for windows, pay otherwise). I used MetaMorphosis, because I happen to work at Ovidius. But I think, you can use any transformation language (maybe DOM), that can do queries in multiple documents (I don't know, if XLT can do that) to resolve the variables (This only, if you have the variables values in some other xml file). I think, to formulate something like this, MetaMorphosis is the quickest and easiest to do so, allthough you have to learn a new language. So use MetaMorphosis or program this kind of traversal by hand use DOM. Best regards, Arthur Rother Ovidius GmbH xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sat Jun 19 01:42:18 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <3761821C.4446F61B@pacbell.net> <14183.43186.446308.624682@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376AD9DE.6668B8D5@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > David Brownell writes: > > > - I think the "validation" property should be immutable during > > parses; nonvalidating parses will generally discard data > > that a validating parse requires. > > Agreed. > > > - Why shouldn't declaration and lexical handlers be set "at any > > time" during a parse, like the SAX1 handlers? > > Is this the case with SAX1, or is it simply underspecified? SAX1 specifies explicitly that the handlers can be changed mid-parse; see your spec for the "org.xml.sax.Parser" class! :-) > > - When I implemented reporting of entity expansion for Sun last > > fall, I ran into a problem case that hasn't been addressed in > > the SAX2 draft. Namely, entities in attributes ... consider > > > > <element attr="&entity;"/> > > > > will generally get reported as > > > > startEntity ("entity"); > > endEntity ("entity"); > > startElement ("element", {"attr", value-of-entity, ...} ...); > > endElement ("element"); > > > > which doesn't really make sense. Sun's parser deals with this > > issue by not reporting such entity expansions. It's not clear > > to me how SAX2 will deal with the issue. > > I'm either to live with the status quo or to back out and scrap > reporting of entity boundaries altogether -- this is getting far too > complicated for far too little real reward. I'd vote to scrap them, then. > > - There's a similar issue with expanding parameter entities: > > > > <!ATTLIST element > > %common-attrs; > > %i18n-attrs; > > %optional-attrs; > > attr NOTATION ( %notation-set-1; ) "fubar" > > > > > > > And so on with conditional sections and other declarations; Sun's > > parser deals with that issue by not reporting parameter entity > > expansions through those reporting callbacks. > > Ditto. ... and ditto! ;-) > > Issues with what's NOT in the draft API, and where the lack is IMHO a > > notable API completeness issue for a "core" in SAX2: > > > > - Information re NOTATION attributes is discarded. In the example > > above, the attributeDecl() callback discards the list of which > > notations are permitted. Suggested fix: update the API. Sun's > > API doesn't discard this info, others are also possible. > > Agreed -- this needs to be fixed somehow. > > > - The internal DTD subset isn't available. This means one can't > > reproduce the <!DOCTYPE...> declaration; some applications have > > convinnced me that they absolutely require that capability. > > Suggested fix: as above, update the API (look at Sun's for one > > solution known to work). > > The internal subset is available, indirectly -- it consists of > everything between the start/endDTD events outside of any > start/endEntity events. True ... but if those start/end events get dropped, then I'd ask to get a callback with the literal text of the internal subset. > > - The SAX1 handlers aren't "gettable" in the way the SAX2 ones are. > > Suggested fix: just define handler IDs for them. > > That's a good idea. OK, next step for me then would seem to be more code actually _using_ the new SAX2 APIs! - Dave > All the best, > > David > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Sat Jun 19 02:01:43 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Top-down or bottom-up? In-Reply-To: <14185.3218.512310.594578@localhost.localdomain> References: <199906111513.LAA27001@hesketh.net> <E10sSdc-0001iC-00@romeo.ic.ac.uk> <199906111325.JAA21943@hesketh.net> <032201beb404$f6b46940$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> <199906111608.MAA29936@hesketh.net> <37626FCB.457EF174@prescod.net> <14180.64662.493404.927680@localhost.localdomain> <3765B35D.EF0886F9@prescod.net> <14182.23225.319557.152831@localhost.localdomain> <376854EC.6835@hiwaay.net> <14185.3218.512310.594578@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <v04205102b3908dbc145f@[192.168.0.1]> At 11:04 -0400 17/6/99, David Megginson wrote: >Just so, but imagine if we had all waited to start writing DTDs until >ISO approved a master document architecture... >This is the point that I (and others) have been making in this >discussion: a top-down approach (start with the master architecture) >can work for something like a new parts-management system for >ACME.com; a bottom-up approach (start with the components, such as >individual specs and DTDs) is pretty much required in an open and >fast-changing system like the Web. > >As Paul Prescod has pointed out, however, in both cases the process is >really iterative: in a bottom-up approach, it's often useful to stop >and throw together a straw-man architecture to see if what we've done >so far makes sense together I was really glad that you included Paul's comment because it reduced my blood pressure a few notches. I regard myself as a software architect and I spend a fair amount of my time thinking in terms of the architecture of our software. (This is even more important with a tiny team as the proportional cost of bad architecture rises in inverse proportion to the size of team - big teams can muddle through). There's been an assumption in a lot of these posts that a documented architecture specifies a lot of rigid detail. I don't see an architecture like that. The architecture of a design is different from the detailed design. The detailed design is the structural specifications and decorative work on the columns. The architecture says how many columns fit into an aesthetically balanced colonnade :-) Back in software terms - we are ALWAYS working with an architecture - it's the background against which even the most bottom-up of developments write their tools. Iterative development is about fleshing out an architecture, and sometimes rejecting ideas or modifying the architecture to suit, always striving for a balanced whole. Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From fischer17 at llnl.gov Sat Jun 19 03:34:20 1999 From: fischer17 at llnl.gov (Aaron Fischer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Inquiry: Reordering XML elements through XSL Message-ID: <199906190136.SAA18562@poptop.llnl.gov> Hello everyone. I have a comptuational problem which I am not sure XSL can solve. My XML documents consist of two basic tag blocks, <A></A> and <B></B>. They can either be interwoven, i.e. <A></A><B></B><A></A><B></B>, or separated into sections, i.e. <A></A><A></A><B></B><B></B>. As XSL is creating the result tree from the XML source tree, I want it to resequence the order of sibbling elements for a given parent node. For example, given an XML document with the ABABAB tag order, I may want to retranslate it into the AAABBB order. I know I can apply a cludge to solve the above problem. Namely, use element omission and make two XSL sweeps of the same document. Run one XSL script that will output only <A> tags, another script that will output <B> tags, then concatenate the two output files. However, this still leaves the reverse problem of translating from a tag order of AAABBB to ABABAB. I'm not sure how this problem could be solved without the use of some direct reordering functionality. The textbook I am reading mentions, "the reordering of elements is expected to appear in future version of XSL". Has this functionality arrived yet? Any help you can provide is appreciated. Aaron Fischer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at valinet.com Sat Jun 19 03:50:27 1999 From: abrahams at valinet.com (Paul W. Abrahams) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Different element references in same namespace Message-ID: <376AF8F7.E3F3D41D@valinet.com> Kay Michael (Michael.Kay@icl.com) > Don't use DTDs and Namespaces within 100 metres of each other, the combination is explosive. > Does that mean there's generally no hope of validating documents that use namespaces? Paul Abrahams xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Sat Jun 19 04:45:46 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Inquiry: Reordering XML elements through XSL Message-ID: <Version.32.19990618194657.01c11760@CraneSoftwrights.com> At 99/06/18 18:34 -0700, Aaron Fischer wrote: >My XML documents consist of two basic tag blocks, <A></A> and <B></B>. >They can either be interwoven, i.e. <A></A><B></B><A></A><B></B>, or >separated into sections, i.e. <A></A><A></A><B></B><B></B>. Fine ... I'll assume the interweaving and separation you desire is in document order of the original in each case. >I know I can apply a cludge to solve the above problem. Namely, use >element omission and make two XSL sweeps of the same document. Run one XSL >script that will output only <A> tags, another script that will output <B> >tags, then concatenate the two output files. No kludge necessary ... just make two passes of the source tree (visiting only the nodes you desire) in a single stylesheet. >However, this still leaves the reverse problem of translating from a tag >order of AAABBB to ABABAB. I'm not sure how this problem could be solved >without the use of some direct reordering functionality. Again, I'll assume you want to preserve the document order of the input in the elements of the output ... if you want another order than document order, the example below won't show that. I've added attributes to the elements to illustrate the ordering. I've also illustrated using different numbers of A and B, though it also works with the identical number. I hope this helps. ............ Ken T:\fischer>type test.xml <?xml version="1.0"?> <test> <a name="ken"/> <b name="kathryn"/> <a name="alex"/> <b name="kaitlyn"/> <a name="ted"/> <a name="john"/> </test> T:\fischer>type test1.xsl <?xml version="1.0"?> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" indent-result="yes"> <xsl:template match="/*"> <!--document element--> <xsl:copy> <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/> <!--preserve atts--> <xsl:copy-of select="//a"/> <!--preserve elements--> <xsl:copy-of select="//b"/> </xsl:copy> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> T:\fischer>call xsl test.xml test1.xsl test1.xml T:\fischer>type test1.xml <test> <a name="ken"/> <a name="alex"/> <a name="ted"/> <a name="john"/> <b name="kathryn"/> <b name="kaitlyn"/> </test> T:\fischer>type test2.xsl <?xml version="1.0"?> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" indent-result="yes"> <xsl:template match="/*"> <!--document element--> <xsl:copy> <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/> <!--preserve atts--> <xsl:call-template name="do-rest"/> </xsl:copy> </xsl:template> <xsl:template name="do-rest"> <xsl:param-variable name="index" expr="1"/> <!--init'd only once--> <xsl:if test="//a[$index] | //b[$index]"> <xsl:copy-of select="//a[$index]"/> <!--preserve elements--> <xsl:copy-of select="//b[$index]"/> <xsl:call-template name="do-rest"> <!--recurse--> <xsl:param name="index" expr="$index + 1"/> </xsl:call-template> </xsl:if> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> T:\fischer>call xsl test1.xml test2.xsl test2.xml T:\fischer>type test2.xml <test> <a name="ken"/> <b name="kathryn"/> <a name="alex"/> <b name="kaitlyn"/> <a name="ted"/> <a name="john"/> </test> T:\fischer> -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Publications: Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat Jun 19 05:10:51 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Inquiry: Reordering XML elements through XSL References: <Version.32.19990618194657.01c11760@CraneSoftwrights.com> Message-ID: <376B0AA0.BEFE91D4@jclark.com> "G. Ken Holman" wrote: > >However, this still leaves the reverse problem of translating from a tag > >order of AAABBB to ABABAB. > <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" > indent-result="yes"> > > <xsl:template match="/*"> <!--document element--> > <xsl:copy> > <xsl:copy-of select="@*"/> <!--preserve atts--> > <xsl:call-template name="do-rest"/> > </xsl:copy> > </xsl:template> > > <xsl:template name="do-rest"> > <xsl:param-variable name="index" expr="1"/> <!--init'd only once--> > <xsl:if test="//a[$index] | //b[$index]"> > <xsl:copy-of select="//a[$index]"/> <!--preserve elements--> > <xsl:copy-of select="//b[$index]"/> > <xsl:call-template name="do-rest"> <!--recurse--> > <xsl:param name="index" expr="$index + 1"/> > </xsl:call-template> > </xsl:if> > </xsl:template> > > </xsl:stylesheet> A simpler approach is: perform the following on the document element "test" for each a element copy the element let n be the position of this a element (ie this element is the n-th a element) copy the n-th of the following b siblings In XSLT: <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" indent-result="yes"> <xsl:template match="test"> <test> <xsl:for-each select="a"> <xsl:copy-of select="."/> <xsl:variable name="n" expr="position()"/> <xsl:copy-of select="from-following-siblings(b[$n])"/> </xsl:for-each> </test> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Sat Jun 19 06:04:23 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Inquiry: Reordering XML elements through XSL In-Reply-To: <376B0AA0.BEFE91D4@jclark.com> References: <Version.32.19990618194657.01c11760@CraneSoftwrights.com> Message-ID: <Version.32.19990618204606.01c55c80@CraneSoftwrights.com> At 99/06/19 10:12 +0700, James Clark wrote: >> At 99/06/18 18:34 -0700, Aaron Fischer wrote: >> >However, this still leaves the reverse problem of translating from a tag >> >order of AAABBB to ABABAB. > >A simpler approach is: > >perform the following on the document element "test" > for each a element > copy the element > let n be the position of this a element (ie this element is the n-th >a element) > copy the n-th of the following b siblings When I read this I thought this would only work when the number of <a> elements is not less than the number of <b> elements, so I tried an example below to confirm that. Although Aaron's example has an equal number of elements, I tried to be more general by handling an arbitrary number of either element (though I don't know if this is his need or not). The approach I took is based on a numerical index rather than relying on the existence of either element. Certainly if we stick to his original example, your code works, so I was just playing outside the sandbox. ........... Ken T:\fischer>type test3.xml <test> <a name="kathryn"/> <a name="kaitlyn"/> <b name="ken"/> <b name="alex"/> <b name="ted"/> <b name="john"/> </test> T:\fischer>type jclark3.xsl <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" indent-result="yes"> <xsl:template match="test"> <test> <xsl:for-each select="a"> <xsl:copy-of select="."/> <xsl:variable name="n" expr="position()"/> <xsl:copy-of select="from-following-siblings(b[$n])"/> </xsl:for-each> </test> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> T:\fischer>call xsl test3.xml jclark3.xsl test4.xml T:\fischer>type test4.xml <test> <a name="kathryn"/> <b name="ken"/> <a name="kaitlyn"/> <b name="alex"/> </test> T:\fischer> -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/s/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Publications: Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sat Jun 19 08:10:43 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Nested DTDs References: <006601beb954$a5ecbee0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> <376A580D.A8DB6D2@goon.stg.brown.edu> Message-ID: <001501beb9b6$1c200700$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > Just for the record, this isn't entirely okay. You're violating a few > "for interoperability" constraints. If that is all I'm violating, though, it's okay as "for interoperability" constrains are non-binding, right? James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 08:27:20 1999 From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: supporting unicode in XML tools References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2779CD@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: <001501beba1c$67e95c70$4a5eedc1@arp01> > It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is I disagree with alot of the points in this article, ma ----- Original Message ----- From: DuCharme, Robert <DuCharmR@moodys.com> To: 'Dirk Germonpre' <dirkg@tectrade.be>; <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: RE: supporting unicode in XML tools > >I'm going to write some XML tools. How can I support both UTF-8 and > UTF-16 > >at the same time? Am I better of writing XML software in C++ or Java > with > >respect to supporting unicode? > > It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is > Meant for Java" at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/06/fuchs/fuchs.html > for background. > > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ > snee.com> see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: > The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 19 08:45:27 1999 From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: C++ is an Excellent XML development tool - Re: supporting unicode in XML tools References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2779CD@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: <001c01beba1e$f001d630$4a5eedc1@arp01> > It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is > Meant for Java" at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/06/fuchs/fuchs.html > for background. That statement is not really true. Sure, if you've got a Java background it might be easier, but the articles seems to gloss over any detailed comparision of modern C++ XML tools likes IBMs and ours, or, langauges like VB, which to a lesser degree I understand. I think Java is great but.. Anybody with a C++ *will* find it easier using C++ tools and get the huge performance benefits to boot. In the MS world I live in mostly, VB *is* the easiest tool for XML development unless this is complicated: Dim xmlfile As DOMDocument Dim contacts As DOMElement Dim contact As DOMElement Set xmlfile = New DOMDocument Set contacts = xmlfile.createElement("Contacts") xmlfile.appendChild contacts xmlfile.save ("C:\test2.xml") In C++ I just write this to create an XML document: DOMDocument *pDoc; pDoc = createDOMDocument(); pText = pDoc->createElement( L"Contacts"); pDoc>appendChild( pText ); saveDOMDocumentToFile( pDoc, L"simple_utf16.xml", L"UTF-16" ); pDoc->release(); Is that so hard for a C++ programmer ? These code snippets are based on our products but the MS/IBM implementations are bound to be as simple. Just my 2$ Richard. http://www.vivid-creations.com Home of various cross-platform/langauge XML tools ----- Original Message ----- From: DuCharme, Robert <DuCharmR@moodys.com> To: 'Dirk Germonpre' <dirkg@tectrade.be>; <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Sent: Friday, June 18, 1999 7:47 PM Subject: RE: supporting unicode in XML tools > >I'm going to write some XML tools. How can I support both UTF-8 and > UTF-16 > >at the same time? Am I better of writing XML software in C++ or Java > with > >respect to supporting unicode? > > It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is > Meant for Java" at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/06/fuchs/fuchs.html > for background. > > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob <bob@ > snee.com> see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: > The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sat Jun 19 08:52:54 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: XSL competition canceled References: <199906190518.WAA29834@boethius.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <011901beb9bb$f98f65e0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> First of all, I would like to publicly thank Jon Bosak, not only for his work in getting XML started in the first place but his continuing insistance that XML not be locked in middleware but realise its "full potential" for internationalised media-independent non-proprietary publishing systems. Secondly, this seems an appropriate time to announce here something that I have already said to many people privately as well as publicly at the WWW8 Developers' Day, namely that FOP, my own attempt at helping to realise the publishing potential of XML, will shortly be released open source. The cynics amongst you are probably thinking "well, he can't win the money, so he'll now make the source available". The fact is that I always intended FOP to be open source. While the Sun/Adobe "bounty" did raise questions about whether to reveal my "secrets" (and this poses interesting questions about paying for open source development generally), the principal reason I haven't released the source to date is a shyness about my own (lack of) programming ability. Enough people have privately convinced me that people criticising my code will *improve* my programming ability more that it will crush my confidence and so, later today, I will release the source for 0.6.4 of FOP at http://www.jtauber.com/fop/ I look forward to some of you having the time and patience to help me make the FOP code better. Regards James Tauber xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Sat Jun 19 20:25:31 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Common LISP [or your favorite language here] is an Excellent XML development tool Message-ID: <b39177580402100487b1@[198.5.212.109]> LISP is designed for manipulating structured information, so it is often a perfect fit for XML. For comparasion purposes, here is the equivalent functionality as in the C++ and VB examples below but written in Common LISP. It opens an interface to an XML document named "test2.xml" and appends a newly created element "Contacts": (with-open-dom (document "test2.xml" :direction :output) (dom:append-child document (dom:create-element document "Contacts"))) The with-open-dom construct opens a DOM interface to the file "test2.xml" and binds it to a variable "document". The direction is set to output to declare that the created document should be written to the file. The pathname can be substituted with a reference to any other object that has a DOM interface. The direction can alternatively be :input or :io to build on an existing document. The Common LISP DOM interface used above is already (unofficially) supported by the Emil? XML editor as well as other of our XML software. It will soon be made official complete with supporting code, and is likely to be supported by other Common LISP applications included the CL-HTTP web server. CL-DOM is documented at: http://interaction.in-progress.com/developer/dom/index At 11:42 PM 6/18/99, Richard Anderson wrote: >> It will be easier with Java. See Matthew Fuch's article "Why XML Is >> Meant for Java" at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/06/fuchs/fuchs.html >> for background. > >That statement is not really true. Sure, if you've got a Java background it >might be easier, but the articles seems to gloss over any detailed >comparision of modern C++ XML tools likes IBMs and ours, or, langauges like >VB, which to a lesser degree I understand. > >I think Java is great but.. > >Anybody with a C++ *will* find it easier using C++ tools and get the huge >performance benefits to boot. > >In the MS world I live in mostly, VB *is* the easiest tool for XML >development unless this is complicated: > >Dim xmlfile As DOMDocument >Dim contacts As DOMElement >Dim contact As DOMElement > >Set xmlfile = New DOMDocument >Set contacts = xmlfile.createElement("Contacts") >xmlfile.appendChild contacts >xmlfile.save ("C:\test2.xml") > >In C++ I just write this to create an XML document: > > DOMDocument *pDoc; > pDoc = createDOMDocument(); > > pText = pDoc->createElement( L"Contacts"); > pDoc>appendChild( pText ); > > saveDOMDocumentToFile( pDoc, > L"simple_utf16.xml", > L"UTF-16" ); > pDoc->release(); > >Is that so hard for a C++ programmer ? > >These code snippets are based on our products but the MS/IBM implementations >are bound to be as simple. > >Just my 2$ > >Richard. >http://www.vivid-creations.com >Home of various cross-platform/langauge XML tools -- Terje <Terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com> Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Sun Jun 20 09:40:33 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (eisen@pobox.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: Perl XML Module list Message-ID: <376C9B70.215F2287@pobox.com> The Perl XML module list has been updated and is available at: http://www.perlxml.com/modules/perl-xml-modules.html Please send any additions or corrections to eisen@pobox.com. Thanks to Ken MacLeod who contributed a large amount of information to the list. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Mon Jun 21 04:03:45 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:18 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net>; from David Brownell on Thu, Jun 17, 1999 at 07:43:54AM -0700 References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Thu, Jun 17, 1999 at 07:43:54AM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 16, 1999 at 09:21:48AM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > > > > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > > > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > > > I'm a little confused, and I think it relates to a degree of confusion > > between formatting and transformation (XSL/XTL?). > > > > My understanding is that Simon et al object to the use of server XSL > > to provide formatted output to the client. Paul suggests that this is > > a good thing because it gives the owner of the data choice in what to > > make available to the user. David then provides some examples to back > > up this argument. > > Actually, I gave more general examples too ... when you transform the > data in any way (not only turning into "formatted" output like HTML, > FOs, etc) you may be preventing "clients" from seeing data that some > may want to be able to see. I still don't think this is the point. If one has: <employee status="active" security="high"> <name>Joe</name> <phone>555-12345</phone> <home-phone>555-55436</home-phone> <salary>$30,000</salary> </employee> Then the following two transformations: <employee status="active"> <name>Joe</name> <phone>555-12345</phone> </employee> <H3>Joe</H3> <P>Phone: 555-12345</P> Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case of having more or less information. In the second example, even the structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. FO's leave you with what might as well be a GIF rendition of the information you are after (indeed, GIF may well be safer, since one might be less tempted to be naughty and make assumptions about the structure of the FO output, such as "Phone number is after the colon in the first <P>"). A qualified FO: <DIV CLASS="employee" status="active"> <H3 CLASS="name">Joe</H3> <P>Phone: <SPAN CLASS="phone">555-12345</SPAN></P> </DIV> would certainly go some way towards easing the strain though I don't know if typical FO models (XSL in particular) allow this much flexibility. > > My problem with all this is that the cases-in-point that David > > supplies (embedded systems notwithstanding, though they really are a > > separate issue in my opinion) are all more appropriately dealt with by > > transforming the data rather than formatting it (in fact, David even > > refers to it as such). But this is not, as far as I understand it, > > what Simon is objecting to. > > I see all of those transformations as points on a spectrum, and the > note I responded to didn't seem to be restricted to XSL FOs; it didn't > mention FOs or formatting, as I recall. (I was concerned about whether > the discussion lost some context, too!) Granted, it is a little difficult to know where the volleys are going (or, for that matter, coming from :-). I have to take issue, however, with the characterisation of the transformations as points on a spectrum. There is a very well defined distinction between transformation and formatting within the XSL model, hence the move to split it into two separate standards. I can see how, in the general sense, there might be a continuum, though I was addressing XSL specifically, so perhaps we, too, are talking at cross-purposes! :-) :-) > Turning data into presentation-only data is just another transform, in > any case, for all that it's a bit more apparent how much was removed. > Clients don't generally have any "right" to see that extra data. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 21 06:34:42 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376DBD58.EE1E3089@prescod.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > Then the following two transformations: > > <employee status="active"> > <name>Joe</name> > <phone>555-12345</phone> > </employee> > > <H3>Joe</H3> > <P>Phone: 555-12345</P> > > Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case > of having more or less information. In the second example, even the > structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the > owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. Gratuitiously in what sense? You need to format the thing, right? Therefore you need to map to formatting constructs. > FO's leave you with what might as well be a GIF rendition of the > information you are after That's a serious exaggeration. Can you text-index a GIF? Can you do a "find word" in a GIF? Can you convert a GIF to RTF, load it into word for Windows and start typing? David is completely right that these things live on a spectrum. GIFs are far, far down the end of the spectrum beyond FOs. > A qualified FO: > > <DIV CLASS="employee" status="active"> > <H3 CLASS="name">Joe</H3> > <P>Phone: <SPAN CLASS="phone">555-12345</SPAN></P> > </DIV> > > would certainly go some way towards easing the strain though I don't > know if typical FO models (XSL in particular) allow this much > flexibility. I think that there is an important but subtle point that keeps getting lost. The term "employee" is absolutely useless unless I know know about it *in advance*. Unless I am expecting to get thousands of documents about "employees" I can't set up the stylesheets, queries, etc. to make this information useful. An "H3" is more useful to a browser than an "EMPLOYEE" because the former is *known in advance*. In all of this hand waving about the semantic web, people seem to think that once you put the semantics out everything just falls into place. Getting the semantics out is the EASY PART. Rationalizing them is the hard part. If Lexis-Nexis publishes its terabytes of data in a proprietary document type, it might as well be Greek. HTML is more useful because I can at least display it. Guessing at the structure of a document type from element type names is as dangerous as guessing based on text content like colons and font sizes. If you want the semantic web to be robust, you need people to WANT to publish semantic data in *standardized document types*. Even if we could force them to publish in semantic but non-standard document types we would be no farther ahead! Trees: XSL being used to destroy semantic information. Forest: The hard work of building robust information systems that will even *allow* us to share semantics meaningfully. > I have to take issue, however, with the characterisation of the > transformations as points on a spectrum. There is a very well defined > distinction between transformation and formatting within the XSL > model, hence the move to split it into two separate standards. Actually, the two processes in XSL would be better termed "transformation" and "layout." Both steps do *formatting*. Choosing which text becomes the footer text is certainly formatting but it is done by the transformation part of the language. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Mon Jun 21 08:27:09 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (eisen@pobox.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: ANN: XML::Dumper 0.4 Message-ID: <376DDBD6.39DBED31@pobox.com> This release is a bug fix to balanced nested hashes. It will be available at your local CPAN mirror or from http://www.perlxml.com/modules/XML-Dumper-0.4.tar.gz NAME XML::Dumper Version 0.4 DESCRIPTION XML::Dumper dumps Perl data to a structured XML format. XML::Dumper can also read XML data that was previously dumped by the module and convert it back to Perl. This might be useful for dumping Perl objects to files using an XML format that can be reloaded or accessed by other programs. Maybe even other languages. Feel free to contact me at eisen@pobox.com if you have problems and/or suggestions. REQUIREMENTS This module requires version 2.16 or greater of the XML::Parser module. The latest version is available at any CPAN archive. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Mon Jun 21 09:27:39 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Common LISP [or your favorite language here] is an Excellent XML development tool Message-ID: <b39395db01021004935a@[198.5.212.103]> At 8:15 PM 6/19/99, Didier PH Martin wrote: > >Have you tried DSSSL? It is a scheme based language. An ISO standard. It can >process SGML and XML documents. Support a rich set of formatting objects. >Can transform SGML and XML documents into: RTF, Tex, MIF, HTML+CSS. Next >Solution, a commercial version can transform into PDF and Postscript. > >Take a look at the OpenJade site at: > >http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL/index.html DSSSL indeed provides an indication of the close relationship between LISP and markup processing. We have considered supporting it in our solutions for several years, but our customer base is still far from ready for advanced style languages. We are working on bridging traditional web developers to get going on using extensible markup. For the past years we have based our solutions on CSS to keep it on an understandable level for non-programmers. Our applications generate standard HTML pages based on XML and CSS, which has shown to be an appropriate first step for the average web developer. -- Terje Norderhaug <terje@in-progress.com> President & Chief Technologist Media Design in*Progress San Diego, California Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From m.bild at gmx.de Mon Jun 21 10:23:26 1999 From: m.bild at gmx.de (Matthias Bild) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Store XML in ooDB Message-ID: <30614.929953543@www6.gmx.net> I want to write a Java program which stores a XML file in an ooDB like Jasmine. The XML elements should be stored as objects but probably not on the same detailed granularity as defined in DOM. Does anyone have experiences with that? Is there some code out there to play around with? Regards Matt -- Matthias Bild m.bild@gmx.de -- Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Mon Jun 21 11:14:57 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990621091303Z-84826@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> David Megginson wrote, > I'm either to live with the status quo or to back out > and scrap reporting of entity boundaries altogether -- > this is getting far too complicated for far too little > real reward. The reward, yet again, is in DOM building: entity reference reporting would allow sharing of entity expansions in the tree. I'd like to see this in, but I agree that it's quite hard to see how it could be done given the current method for reporting attribute values. Is there any chance of us changing that? How about an alternative start tag reporting interface which reports, startOpenElement(String name); startAttribute(String name); attributeCharacters(char[] chars, int off, int len); endAttribute(String name); endOpenElement(String name); These calls could be interspersed with startEntity() and endEntity() calls quite straightforwardly. I guess something similar could be done for parameter entities. It also has the advantage of not requiring the stringification of attribute values (something I've never been too happy with). I'm not sure how this could be made to interwork with the current scheme tho'. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 21 15:07:53 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990621091303Z-84826@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> References: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990621091303Z-84826@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> Message-ID: <14190.14597.264841.536114@localhost.localdomain> Miles Sabin writes: > Is there any chance of us changing that? How about an > alternative start tag reporting interface which reports, > > startOpenElement(String name); > startAttribute(String name); > attributeCharacters(char[] chars, int off, int len); > endAttribute(String name); > endOpenElement(String name); The trouble is that this would benefit relatively few people and make life harder for all the rest. The more we discuss these issues, the more I think that SAX shouldn't try to be all things to all people -- perhaps we should let the 'S' continue to stand for 'Simple', and target only the 80% (or 98%, more likely) who care mainly about the Holy Trinity of elements, attributes, and character data. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s861766 at mail86.yzu.edu.tw Mon Jun 21 16:20:27 1999 From: s861766 at mail86.yzu.edu.tw (Ephese Yang) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <376E4A60.E47F4B70@mail86.yzu.edu.tw> unsubscribe xml-dev xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kim.wilson at informed-people.com Mon Jun 21 16:31:09 1999 From: kim.wilson at informed-people.com (Kim Wilson, Informed People) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Programming work available Message-ID: <001801bebbf2$a5a227e0$1b05e83e@optimedia.co.uk> Hi I'm new to this list so I hope this message doesn't breach any etiquette. I run a small software company in Oxford and we have unexpectedly gained a contract which needs the urgent attention of a good programmer who knows XML pretty well. Preferably based within striking distance of Oxford - say a couple of hours drive max.). The work basically involves the development of a special-purpose XML document editing tool to be used on standalone PCs, plus creating a DTD and some general consultancy. I have a very strong desire for the work to be done in Java, but I'm open to suggestions about alternatives. There's probably a couple of months work in total, with the possibility of more to follow. We have to start no later than early July. Anyone who's interested should call or email me asap. Kim Wilson Director, Informed People ---------------------- The Informed People Company Oxford Centre for Innovation Mill Street Oxford OX2 0JX UK Tel: +44 (0) 1865 242307 Fax: +44 (0) 1865 723686 web: http://www.informed-people.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Mon Jun 21 17:11:23 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990621150928Z-85180@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> David Megginson wrote, > Miles Sabin writes: > > Is there any chance of us changing that? How about > > an alternative start tag reporting interface which > > reports, > > > > startOpenElement(String name); > > startAttribute(String name); > > attributeCharacters(char[] chars, int off, int len); > > endAttribute(String name); > > endOpenElement(String name); > > The trouble is that this would benefit relatively few > people and make life harder for all the rest. The > more we discuss these issues, the more I think that > SAX shouldn't try to be all things to all people -- > perhaps we should let the 'S' continue to stand for > 'Simple', and target only the 80% (or 98%, more > likely) who care mainly about the Holy Trinity of > elements, attributes, and character data. Fair enough, though presumably there's enough room to support this sort of functionality via the extension mechanism. Any takers? Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon Jun 21 17:43:46 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: XSLT Question: using the starts-with() string function Message-ID: <376E5E81.F819A939@mitre.org> Hi folks, I am having some trouble using XSLT's starts-with() string function. Below is a snippet of some XML: <location> ICAO: Boston </location> <location> LatLon: 74.31W, 106.5N </location> Note how the content of the <location> element either starts with ICAO or with LatLon. I would like to write a template rule for the <location> element that checks to see what its content starts with. If it starts with ICAO then it should do one thing. It is starts with LatLon it should do another thing. Here is my (failed) attempt at this template rule: <xsl:template match="location" > <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','ICAO')"> <location_ICAO> <xsl:apply-templates/> </location_ICAO> </xsl:if> <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','LatLon')"> <location_LatLon> <xsl:apply-templates/> </location_LatLon> </xsl:if> </xsl:template> When I run this through James Clark's XT processor I get no output for this template rule. What am I doing wrong? Also, I found that if I user the xsl:choose construct (rather than the sequence of xsl:if statements) I get an "invalid token" error message. Anyone know that that's all about? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 21 18:52:20 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: XSLT Question: using the starts-with() string function Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF1F@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > <location> > ICAO: Boston > </location> > <location> > LatLon: 74.31W, 106.5N > </location> > > Note how the content of the <location> element either starts with ICAO > or with LatLon. ... Here is my (failed) attempt at this template > rule: > > <xsl:template match="location" > > <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','ICAO')"> > <location_ICAO> > <xsl:apply-templates/> > </location_ICAO> > </xsl:if> > <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','LatLon')"> > ... Try <xsl:if test="starts-with(normalize('./text()'),'ICAO')"> You need to get rid of the leading white space. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon Jun 21 19:06:16 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: XSLT Question: using the starts-with() string function References: <376E5E81.F819A939@mitre.org> <376E6E88.627FB903@mitre.org> Message-ID: <376E71D8.4A4AD7C7@mitre.org> Keith Visco wrote: > > Roger, > > you are passing your first parameter as a String literal, instead of an > expression. > > try removing the quotes from './text()' and just use ./text() or just > text() since the "." (Identity) should be implicit in this case. > Thanks Keith. Using text() worked like a charm: <xsl:template match="location" > <xsl:if test="starts-with(text(),'ICAO')"> <location_ICAO> <xsl:apply-templates/> </location_ICAO> </xsl:if> <xsl:if test="starts-with(text(),'LatLon')"> <location_LatLon> <xsl:apply-templates/> </location_LatLon> </xsl:if> </xsl:template> /Roger > --Keith > > "Roger L. Costello" wrote: > > > > Hi folks, > > > > I am having some trouble using XSLT's starts-with() string function. > > Below is a snippet of some XML: > > > > <location> > > ICAO: Boston > > </location> > > <location> > > LatLon: 74.31W, 106.5N > > </location> > > > > Note how the content of the <location> element either starts with ICAO > > or with LatLon. > > > > I would like to write a template rule for the <location> element > > that checks to see what its content starts with. If it starts with > > ICAO then it should do one thing. It is starts with LatLon it > > should do another thing. Here is my (failed) attempt at this template > > rule: > > > > <xsl:template match="location" > > > <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','ICAO')"> > > <location_ICAO> > > <xsl:apply-templates/> > > </location_ICAO> > > </xsl:if> > > <xsl:if test="starts-with('./text()','LatLon')"> > > <location_LatLon> > > <xsl:apply-templates/> > > </location_LatLon> > > </xsl:if> > > </xsl:template> > > > > When I run this through James Clark's XT processor I get no output > > for this template rule. What am I doing wrong? > > > > Also, I found that if I user the xsl:choose construct (rather than > > the sequence of xsl:if statements) I get an "invalid token" error > > message. Anyone know that that's all about? > > > > /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon Jun 21 20:30:35 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML Message-ID: <87256797.0065D619.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >We went through the same process as you: having used MFC serlialization, XML >sounded like it had various advantages. > Isn't this what the W3C XMI spec is at least partially about? Or am I mixing acronyms here? Sorry if someone else already made this point, the all new mondo weekly archive posting is too big to go look around too much. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon Jun 21 21:23:30 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: How to have refinement without corruption (Re: Another reason why namespaces URLs should not be schemas) Message-ID: <001b01bebc13$ea804d30$30f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Murray Maloney <murray@muzmo.com> >We have addressed this problem in XML Schema with the >import/include distinction. Please take a look. I have. It does not. They are merely scoping variants for modules. * Import is a named link to another schema (presumably XML Schema) at the head of an XML schema document. Declarations from that schema can be individually accessed. * Include is an anonymous link to a schema, where the included schema's declaration take the same namespace as the including schema. My question must not have been clear. If I use XML Schemas, and refine HTML, I must also give a new schema URL (masquerading as a namespace URI). If I give a new namespace URI, then any XML software which is hardcoded to use namespace URIs will fail. Surely this prevents the most straightforward implementations of well-known document types by applications: using the namespace URI. It seems to me that the current XML Spec is a disaster for this; I hope I am reading the spec wrong. If applications have to download an enormous XML Schema in order to know that an element is just a refined HTML, then it strikes me as unworkable. The result will be that everyone will use the prefix to key their applications by, and only use the namespace URLs for XML Schemas. It is not "overloading", it is usurpation. Rick Jelliffe P.S. In case anyone is wondering how to have refinement without corrupting namespaces, one method would be to adopt a model of schemas which was based on parallel schemas {i.e., architectures} where the namespace URI gave the more well-known parallel schema and therefore was suitable for hard-coded applications. A simple PI (or attribute) would register the refining schema: <?xml-schema namespace="http://..." refinement="http://..." ?> >At 05:07 AM 6/18/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >>If I am using XHTML and I decide to refine my >>document type so that headers must be inside divisions, >>what do I do (if namespace URLs can be resolved to >>schemas)? >> >>Presumably, I have to derive a new schema based on >>the old one, with a new URL; then I have to use that new >>URL as the namespace URL. Then IE 5 and everything >>that works by using the namespace URL to signify the >>operation of an element will be broke. >> >>This seems to me to be unworkable: if I make >> >><html xmlns="http://rick.com.xx/my-html.xmlschema"> >>... >></html> >>then a rendering engine has to download my corpulent (not to >>mention grumous) XML schema before it can find out that >>in fact my element types are HTML. >> >>So it seems that overloading the function of the namespace >>URI to also be a schema URL would have a bad effect on >>XHTML with data islands etc, or on any DTD derived from >>DTDs that are built into the processor. >> >>It seems that the situation we are reaching is that the >>namespace prefix is being treated as unique for famous >>DTDs (e.g. how IE 5 treats html:) and that the >>URL is being used as a schema name. If people want >>to do this, that is fine, but it does not correspond to namespaces >>(in fact, it corresponds more to what I suggested in >>XML-Bind -- a simple prefixing system to make >>automated renaming more manageable and a way to >>bind names to schemas, except I suggested regular expression >>matching not just the prefix). >> >>Rick Jelliffe >> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 21 21:28:19 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:19 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376E92CA.E282B7A1@pacbell.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > > > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > ... the following two transformations: > > <employee status="active"> > <name>Joe</name> > <phone>555-12345</phone> > </employee> > > <H3>Joe</H3> > <P>Phone: 555-12345</P> > > Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case > of having more or less information. In the second example, even the > structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. And there we catch the essence of a philosophical divide, I think! (Not the one about not counting structure as information.) On what grounds can you claim "you" are "entitled" to such information? Have you any legal "need to know"? Have you entered into an enforceable contract, with penalty clauses if you misuse that information (e.g. sell it to a competitor or other unauthorized entity)? Who are "you", and why should your interest trump the "owner's" interest in reducing the risks inherent in sharing information with you? As I said earlier: > > Turning data into presentation-only data is just another transform, in > > any case, for all that it's a bit more apparent how much was removed. > > Clients don't generally have any "right" to see that extra data. I can accept that some folk don't like the FO part of XSL. What I can't accept is justifying such a dislike on legal grounds, when in fact when you bring law into it you're more likely to find reasons for "firewalling" data than otherwise. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon Jun 21 22:28:06 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Advice on DTD's Message-ID: <005301bebc1c$dbe1b120$30f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Andrew Wheeler <akwheel@talos.org> >> [Andrew Wheeler] Your solution seems to be exactly what I don't >> want, i.e. writing bespoke code that we have to maintain. Attached is an example of the HTML I had in mind. If you want a cheap low-tech approach to keeping descriptions "together" with the DTD, you can put all sorts of text data in comments, and you can add links to non-text descriptions if you need diagramming. If you are making DTDs with only a couple of hundred elements, consider if this is all you really need. You don't need any special code for it. (Though it could be automated to generate indexes automatically.) If you need a tad more managability, create a DTD and use XSL to transform your schema from that an instance of that DTD into HTML. The XSL script to do this need only be a page long: hardly a maintenance nightmare. (If you are not able to support that kind of scripting, how are you using XML? Just interested.) >From your response, and others, then I think >maybe we are asking too much, also given the fact that XML Schema is on >the way this limited tool support may change direction anyway! Are we >being unreasonable? No I think it comes from there has been little market for this kind of tool: people developing XML/SGML are in the business of converting and linking data; they have usually been able to hack something together themselves. (And at the high end, if they were using an SGML tool like FrameMaker or Interleaf, these both provide rich document-type documentation systems.) Also, tools are often tied to methodologies, and I think few medium-end users have stuck to published methodologies. If you are wanting systems that allow you to document source code (including DTDs) with hypertext, you could consider DOCBOOK. If you want to go from describing to validating and your elements' contents have particular datatypes, XML Schema Datatypes could indeed be what you are waiting for. Rick Jelliffe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990621/5d971649/dtd-in-html.html From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 21 22:31:01 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990621091303Z-84826@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <14190.14597.264841.536114@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <376EA185.CD7B2587@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Miles Sabin writes: > > > Is there any chance of us changing that? How about an > > alternative start tag reporting interface which reports, > > > > startOpenElement(String name); > > startAttribute(String name); > > attributeCharacters(char[] chars, int off, int len); > > endAttribute(String name); > > endOpenElement(String name); > > The trouble is that this would benefit relatively few people and make > life harder for all the rest. Right. Making an extra 2 (+3x #attributes) invocations per element could also be a performance issue of no small note! Miles -- you're on the right track re using the extension mechanism for this functionality. What'd be needed is parsers which would use it... I think that the API calls you sketched above might do the job, maybe even within the DTD. (I have no interest in exposing parameter entity handling, FWIW!) > The more we discuss these issues, the > more I think that SAX shouldn't try to be all things to all people -- Being all things to all people is a bad idea ... and frankly, supporting every dubious DOM feature (notably entity boundaries and the wrong level of DTD support ;-) isn't so good either. > perhaps we should let the 'S' continue to stand for 'Simple', and > target only the 80% (or 98%, more likely) who care mainly about the > Holy Trinity of elements, attributes, and character data. SAX 1.0 is good job what it does: that "Trinity". To be honest, I think it's more at the 80% level, since it doesn't let programs know basic parser characteristics (validation, external entity handling, ignorable whitespace reporting, etc). They need that to really support swapping one parser out for another. ** Hmm, I think another SAX 2 "feature" flag would be ** useful for whitespace ... applications can be confused ** if they expect "ignorable" whitespace to be ignored, ** and the parser doesn't report it! What SAX 2.0 needs to do, IMHO, is fill in the holes in 1.0 (like exposing those characteristics) and support some of the growth in XML applications, as well as to provide a standard framework for the inevitable extensions so application architectures don't get too crazy-looking. I think it does so reasonably now, modulo the issues I've noted. Re those inevitable extensions ... I think standardizing the way DTD information shows up is useful, not just to support DOM but also since there are lots of folk who'd like DTDs to constrain what changes are made. (There's a "wait-and-see" for schemas.) Similarly, XHTML will become more significant ... and so I think exposing comments (which often wrap inline CSS and scripting) is also good to standardize. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 21 22:42:46 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> Message-ID: <376EA449.53375F55@pacbell.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > David Megginson wrote: > > > > But you cannot always take two references and determine if they do > > *not* refer to the same object -- that depends on the design. > > "Do these refer to the same object?" => Yes/No/Maybe > > I'm not familiar with a system like that. Can you give an example? Telephone system. Two phone numbers. Do they refer to the same person? Hmm, depends on time of day, who happens to pick up the line, forwarding, and all sorts of exogenous factors. > Obviously boolean logic is MUCH easier to work with than tri-nary logic. > Is there a good reason to allow a system fully connected to the Internet > with access to the URL to return "not proven?" Yes. I'll commend you to some archives at the OMG for this topic; I recall something like a four year ongoing discussion about the notion of identity, which concluded that there are enough different notions that picking one to use everywhere was wholly impractical. The class of distinction that always made the most sense to me was a distinction between extrinsic and intrinsic notions of identity. Extrinsic notions come from identifiers placed on objects. Intrinsic ones come from 'within' and are intangible, like souls. Confusion always arises when people treat extrinsic identities like intrinsic ones. If you copy something, you have two things which may even think that their extrinsic identies (identifiers) are the same; but intrinsically, they are different. (So if folk on this list are confused by the notion of "identity", it's understandable and you're in fine company. It's not at all a simple notion.) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 21 22:44:31 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Building XML Applications - Amazon Message-ID: <199906212046.QAA30308@hesketh.net> Amazon seems to have entered _Building XML Applications_ (which covers the building of applications using XML and Java, with a focus on SAX) under two different ISBNs: 0071341153 and 0071341161 The bottom one is correct, and I'm told by a few lucky people who ordered that the top one takes a lot longer to get shipped. (I haven't tried it myself.) If you're just looking through Amazon, and you find the book, but the reviews 'refer to a paperback edition of this title', you're in the wrong ISBN. I've written Amazon asking them to straighten it out, but it may be a while. And no, it isn't very comforting to see that the non-existent ISBN has a much higher sales-ranking than the real one... Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 21 22:48:18 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: New Schema Tool (was: Advice on DTD's) In-Reply-To: <005301bebc1c$dbe1b120$30f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906212050.QAA30484@hesketh.net> At 05:32 AM 6/22/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >>From your response, and others, then I think >>maybe we are asking too much, also given the fact that XML Schema is on >>the way this limited tool support may change direction anyway! Are we >>being unreasonable? > >No I think it comes from there has been little market for this kind of >tool: people developing XML/SGML are in the business of converting >and linking data; they have usually been able to hack something together >themselves. (And at the high end, if they were using an SGML tool like >FrameMaker or Interleaf, these both provide rich document-type >documentation systems.) You might also want to take a look at XML Authority, from Extensibility. (http://www.extensibility.com/) It provides documentation support - through comments using conventions in DTDs or other documentation support as available in other DTD formats. It's a pretty sophisticated schema builder, written in Java. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 21 22:58:31 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <3.0.5.32.19990528102659.009cc6d0@library.berkeley.edu> <3777B87B.70003861@prescod.net> Message-ID: <376EA7E4.D6D236C2@pacbell.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > Jerome McDonough wrote: > > > >Two different > > URNs may refer to the same abstract work, and retrieve the same or different > > physical manifestations depending on the work identified, context of the > > resolver, > > etc. When you have two URNs identifying an abstract concept, I don't see > > how you can reliably determine computationally that they both identify the > > same thing. > > Why can't you just ask the server? "I've got these two URNs. What's the > Unique ID of the thing that they refer to?" You're assuming there's a workable notion of extrinsic identity, which has never been achieved (for all that the notion appears to be simple and desirable). There are too many nuances to "identity". Tossing another monkey wrench in the soup ... what about agents on the network who are trying to deceive you to make you act in some particular way? The web clearly has such agents. What's the consequence of asking such a question of such an agent, and acting on its incorrect answer? (Or acting on such an incorrect answer even in the face of an honest human mistake, or some sort of system fault?) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon Jun 21 22:59:58 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: <199906212124.RAA10049@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell, in a message I've unfortunately purged, thinks that identity is a hard concept. Actually, it isn't. What's hard is *determining* identity. It took the human race millennia to determine the identity of the evening star with the morning star (they are identical with each other and with the planet Venus). The labels he calls "extrinsic" are an attempt to bypass this problem. Other difficulties with identity are not truly with identity, but with what counts as an object. Are you identical with yourself ten years ago? At the level of memory, almost certainly; at the level of atoms, no (most of our atoms turn over in 6-12 months; iron is retained for several years). And don't try to dispense with identity, either, or you find you can't even count things. To say "There are five sheep in that field" is to say "There exists a sheep, A, in the field, and ... and there exists a sheep, E, in the field, and A is not identical with B, C, D, or E, and B is not identical ..., and D is not identical with E." We can count sheep (real sheep) only because we have identity criteria for sheep. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon Jun 21 23:18:41 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <199906212124.RAA10049@locke.ccil.org> References: <199906212124.RAA10049@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14190.43779.406018.285387@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > And don't try to dispense with identity, either, or you find you > can't even count things. To say "There are five sheep in that > field" is to say "There exists a sheep, A, in the field, and > ... and there exists a sheep, E, in the field, and A is not > identical with B, C, D, or E, and B is not identical ..., and D is > not identical with E." We can count sheep (real sheep) only > because we have identity criteria for sheep. Of course, non-imaginary sheep move around while you're counting them, so in a big flock at least one sheep is likely to be counted twice. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 21 23:41:42 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Identity References: <199906212124.RAA10049@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <376EB21B.3EDFD1B2@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > David Brownell, in a message I've unfortunately purged, thinks > that identity is a hard concept. > > Actually, it isn't. What's hard is *determining* identity. Which I see as part of what "identity" is ... I think that a lot of the problems come from attempting to separate parts of that problem. If you can't determine the identity of this message, what makes you sure you understand what its identity really is? > It took the human race millennia to determine the identity of > the evening star with the morning star (they are identical > with each other and with the planet Venus). When you talk about physical objects (stars, sheep) identity becomes a lot more concrete; easier to deal with since there's something intrinsic (physical nature) that seems easily grasped in at least some ases (not stars :-). The Scarlet Pimpernel was not the same person as the king. > The labels he calls > "extrinsic" are an attempt to bypass this problem. Not at all. "Who is the President?" Presidency is an extrinsic attribute, a label that refers to different things in different contexts. Much like (drum rull) a URI refers to something, and that something often changes over time. Consider that one of the oft-stated characteristics of computer systems is the ability to create "identical" (sic) copies. Hmm. Does that mean the copies share the same "identity"? Not in terms of intrinsic identity, clearly. Extrinsically, you can rename them to take whatever identity pleases you. - Dave p.s. The Extrinsic/Intrinsic distinction is one I first found in an OODB paper from somewhere in Texas. The database folk were having a hard time of this one, and concluded it was because all they had to work with were "extrinsic" notions and they were treating them like "intrinsic" notions. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Mon Jun 21 23:53:38 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> I think the point was that <H3>Joe</H3> has lost the fact that 'Joe' was a name (<name>Joe</name>), and similarly with the phone number. It is not arguing that the employeeness or status is being requested (elements not rendered) - just the original element identification of those elements which are presented. It comes down to a difference between CSS and XSL(FO): FO's force you to reconstruct your elements as formatting objects which lose all contextual information from the original (both nesting and element identification). In this way it is like translating to HTML (which was the example). If I wanted to search for the name 'Joe' or the phone number I could get as many false hits as I do with HTML sites - nothing identifies a name or phone number. CSS on the other hand would have kept the employee and phone elements and just added the attributes to describe the 1st as a heading level 3 and the second as a paragraph. Why should seeing information in a formatted form destroy its organization? If it were presented as a form or table I could see writing HTML examiners that look for labels for cells and headings for rows/columns just to get back the original element names. Why does information have to be destroyed for presentation? It is not required (CSS doesn't do it). I haven't seen some groundswell of 'Please let me destroy the organization I worked so hard to put on this data' Looks to me like grasping at straws to justify FO model. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com <http://www.design-intelligence.com> ---------- From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 12:30 PM To: Marcelo Cantos Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XSL and the semantic web Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > > If the semantic content is a "web" then anything short of looking at > > > the whole web at once (yeah, right!) is looking through a "firewall". > > ... the following two transformations: > > <employee status="active"> > <name>Joe</name> > <phone>555-12345</phone> > </employee> > > <H3>Joe</H3> > <P>Phone: 555-12345</P> > > Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case > of having more or less information. In the second example, even the > structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. And there we catch the essence of a philosophical divide, I think! (Not the one about not counting structure as information.) On what grounds can you claim "you" are "entitled" to such information? Have you any legal "need to know"? Have you entered into an enforceable contract, with penalty clauses if you misuse that information (e.g. sell it to a competitor or other unauthorized entity)? Who are "you", and why should your interest trump the "owner's" interest in reducing the risks inherent in sharing information with you? As I said earlier: > > Turning data into presentation-only data is just another transform, in > > any case, for all that it's a bit more apparent how much was removed. > > Clients don't generally have any "right" to see that extra data. I can accept that some folk don't like the FO part of XSL. What I can't accept is justifying such a dislike on legal grounds, when in fact when you bring law into it you're more likely to find reasons for "firewalling" data than otherwise. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 00:07:01 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> <376EA449.53375F55@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <376E8B70.BF5B69C0@prescod.net> David Brownell wrote: > > Yes. I'll commend you to some archives at the OMG for this topic; > I recall something like a four year ongoing discussion about the > notion of identity, which concluded that there are enough different > notions that picking one to use everywhere was wholly impractical. I find this hard to believe. Are you saying that in the OMG universe I can have two references to an object and there is *no way* of asking if they refer to the same object? > (So if folk on this list are confused by the notion of "identity", > it's understandable and you're in fine company. It's not at all a > simple notion.) I'm not so concerned about the folks on this list as the folks who are writing specs. They write as if the concept of identity were well-defined in the Web context (see, e.g. RDF and XLink) when clearly it is not. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 00:32:49 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <376EBE13.6F050A5@pacbell.net> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > I think the point was that <H3>Joe</H3> has lost the fact that >'Joe' was a name (<name>Joe</name>), and similarly with the > phone number. I read that just fine. And as I said, you don't have any kind of entitlement or right to such information, so it's no use to base any arguments on such an entitlement. For example, there are risks to society in making it too easy for people to find out information about other folk. It makes it easy to perform identity theft, invade privacy, etc. The very example (a semantic web search) you used to motivate your desire for this representation came across to me as a powerful reason to avoid what you're arguing in favor of! > Looks to me like grasping at straws to justify FO model. ... or to attack it! In fact, I never mentioned FOs, the points I was making apply to _any_ element vocabulary used to deliver information. They will be used to filter out data, and hide it in less accessible forms, since organizations MUST do that. The more sensitive the data, the more work will be (or at least should be!) put into filtering it out or hiding it. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 22 00:39:42 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E2@master.design-intelligence.com> I agree there are times for data to be filtered, which is why I mentioned the elements and attributes that would not be present. With CSS, I admit they would be there but a system that removed elements that had no style attributes added is more of what I'm thinking of. In the case given, you wouldn't know Joe was an employee or that he was active. All you would know is that his name is joe and his phone number. When sensitive data needs to be hidden I would send it out subsetted in the xml: <name>joe</name> <phone>555-12345</phone> His salary, review info, and other sensitive material would not be sent out at all. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com <http://www.design-intelligence.com> ---------- From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:35 PM To: Marc McDonald Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XSL and the semantic web Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > I think the point was that <H3>Joe</H3> has lost the fact that >'Joe' was a name (<name>Joe</name>), and similarly with the > phone number. I read that just fine. And as I said, you don't have any kind of entitlement or right to such information, so it's no use to base any arguments on such an entitlement. For example, there are risks to society in making it too easy for people to find out information about other folk. It makes it easy to perform identity theft, invade privacy, etc. The very example (a semantic web search) you used to motivate your desire for this representation came across to me as a powerful reason to avoid what you're arguing in favor of! > Looks to me like grasping at straws to justify FO model. ... or to attack it! In fact, I never mentioned FOs, the points I was making apply to _any_ element vocabulary used to deliver information. They will be used to filter out data, and hide it in less accessible forms, since organizations MUST do that. The more sensitive the data, the more work will be (or at least should be!) put into filtering it out or hiding it. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 22 00:43:44 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E4@master.design-intelligence.com> (forgot to put in previous reply) Basically, don't use rendering as an means of filtering (maybe I read too much into the use of H3 and P elements). It is certainly valid to filter the XML elements sent out, though that might be done on the production side, i.e. the application that produces the XML form in the first place rather than passing it through XSLT. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com <http://www.design-intelligence.com> ---------- From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:35 PM To: Marc McDonald Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XSL and the semantic web Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > I think the point was that <H3>Joe</H3> has lost the fact that >'Joe' was a name (<name>Joe</name>), and similarly with the > phone number. I read that just fine. And as I said, you don't have any kind of entitlement or right to such information, so it's no use to base any arguments on such an entitlement. For example, there are risks to society in making it too easy for people to find out information about other folk. It makes it easy to perform identity theft, invade privacy, etc. The very example (a semantic web search) you used to motivate your desire for this representation came across to me as a powerful reason to avoid what you're arguing in favor of! > Looks to me like grasping at straws to justify FO model. ... or to attack it! In fact, I never mentioned FOs, the points I was making apply to _any_ element vocabulary used to deliver information. They will be used to filter out data, and hide it in less accessible forms, since organizations MUST do that. The more sensitive the data, the more work will be (or at least should be!) put into filtering it out or hiding it. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 00:44:48 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:20 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> <376EA449.53375F55@pacbell.net> <376E8B70.BF5B69C0@prescod.net> Message-ID: <376EC0CC.1EF5BB28@pacbell.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > > > Yes. I'll commend you to some archives at the OMG for this topic; > > I recall something like a four year ongoing discussion about the > > notion of identity, which concluded that there are enough different > > notions that picking one to use everywhere was wholly impractical. > > I find this hard to believe. Are you saying that in the OMG universe I can > have two references to an object and there is *no way* of asking if they > refer to the same object? There's a loose notion of "equivalence"; you can ask if an object reference is equivalent to another. Primarily that's a syntactical operation designed to let you create tables keyed by object reference, without duplication; it's explicitly understood that the objects two references refer to may in fact be "the same" without having the refences be "equivalent". (Some replication schemes work like that, as do many proxying and load balancing schemes ... large systems use such techniques all over the place.) Generally, identity is an application level notion and not part of the infrastructure. Servers can provide such notions for the objects they implement, as can collections of servers, but it all requires pre-arrangement and is of limited scope. > > (So if folk on this list are confused by the notion of "identity", > > it's understandable and you're in fine company. It's not at all a > > simple notion.) > > I'm not so concerned about the folks on this list as the folks who are > writing specs. They write as if the concept of identity were well-defined > in the Web context (see, e.g. RDF and XLink) when clearly it is not. I've queued up that WCA-Terms URL for later consumption ... could be I'll agree with you on that! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 22 00:51:46 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E5@master.design-intelligence.com> As to the privacy argument (too easy to get information about other folk...): I agree, but having the information out there but hard to parse doesn't really solve the problem. It just lets those with more expertise, money, power define a first class which gets the information and a second class that doesn't. The IRS has massive files on everyone to use as it sees fit and share with who it sees fit - but it doesn't put them on the net. I'm all for restrictions on what personal information can be put on the web - in any form. I assumed the kind of example we were looking at was more of an intranet example where access was already restricted. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com <http://www.design-intelligence.com> ---------- From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 3:35 PM To: Marc McDonald Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XSL and the semantic web Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > I think the point was that <H3>Joe</H3> has lost the fact that >'Joe' was a name (<name>Joe</name>), and similarly with the > phone number. I read that just fine. And as I said, you don't have any kind of entitlement or right to such information, so it's no use to base any arguments on such an entitlement. For example, there are risks to society in making it too easy for people to find out information about other folk. It makes it easy to perform identity theft, invade privacy, etc. The very example (a semantic web search) you used to motivate your desire for this representation came across to me as a powerful reason to avoid what you're arguing in favor of! > Looks to me like grasping at straws to justify FO model. ... or to attack it! In fact, I never mentioned FOs, the points I was making apply to _any_ element vocabulary used to deliver information. They will be used to filter out data, and hide it in less accessible forms, since organizations MUST do that. The more sensitive the data, the more work will be (or at least should be!) put into filtering it out or hiding it. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 01:45:23 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E2@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <376ECF17.C12E2EB0@pacbell.net> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > When sensitive data needs to be hidden I would send it out > subsetted in the xml: > <name>joe</name> > <phone>555-12345</phone> When classifying information, there's an interesting category of "sensitive but not classified" information, which is often more useful in aggregate than in individual cases. Schedules for transport could disclose military operations-to-be when many are analysed together; one alone is innocuous. Phone numbers are a great example of such "sensitive" data, particularly when linked with caller ID services that most phone companies are pushing. (Less successfully in Calfirnia than in most states, I'm pleased to report!) Example: Hmm, why is Karen calling from Joe's place again? Could be those rumors are correct! I'll tell ... <XYZ> !! The web makes it easy to do such aggregations. Correlations against "Joe" will have lots of noise; against "Joe" and that phone number, a lot less. How is Joe going to be able to defend himself? Partly by not disclosing information in aggregatable form ... removing the labeling and content, pre-rendering it (HTML, FO, PDF, GIF, etc), and so on. Partly by insisting that others not disclose such information either. That means controlling the information accessible through the "semantic web" ... if XSL is a tool that becomes effective at controlling information spread, more power to it! (Both XSL-T and XSL-FO.) And that's true of almost any information that's important enough to share -- it can be important enough to merit protection, too. > As to the privacy argument (too easy to get information about > other folk...): > > I agree, but having the information out there but hard to parse > doesn't really solve the problem. It just lets those with more > expertise, money, power define a first class which gets the > information and a second class that doesn't. Which is always the case. The issue is how to keep the bar high enough to have some balance; security and privacy are never absolute, though lack of them can become absolute. You assumed the context of an intranet, so the threat was less because access was restricted ... that's not particularly a good assumption, since most crime is "insider" crime, by folk who know the victim(s). True not just in the corporate world, but elsewhere. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 02:51:24 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <376ED392.FBCE4A56@prescod.net> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > FO's force you to reconstruct your elements as formatting objects which lose > all contextual information from the original (both nesting and element > identification). In this way it is like translating to HTML (which was the > example). That is absolutely not true. If the transformation is done on the client side then *no information is lost* in the transformation because the original document is still available and can be referenced through the result document. The result document is just a view -- it can't destroy the original information any more than a database view could. > Why does information have to be destroyed for presentation? It is not > required (CSS doesn't do it). CSS doesn't solve the problems that XSL is required to solve and thus does not serve as a counter-example of another approach to solving the same problems. Please see my recent messages to Simon St. Laurent for examples. Here's a simple one though: I have a list of objects encoded in chronological order. I choose to display them in alphabetic order. How can I do this transformation without having a presentation that has lost the chronological ordering information? If you want the chronological order, you have to go back to the source tree! This is the case with XSL and it is going to be the case with any language of similar power. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 22 03:27:35 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19EE@master.design-intelligence.com> I read 'not required to' as 'can't be guaranteed to', therefore I can't assume there will be data I can use to do an equality of content check against. If I design a system that assumes URIs refer to data in order to work, I have violated the 'not required' rule. You always have to design for the worst case. Read it as 'can't assume there is any data referred to' so only the URI text can be used to establish identity of 2 URIs. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com <http://www.design-intelligence.com> ---------- From: Paul Prescod [SMTP:paul@prescod.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 5:07 PM To: Marc McDonald Subject: Re: Web Resource Identity Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > With URIs, since they do not refer to any data, That is absolutely not true. URIs can refer to data just as URLs can. URIs are not *required* to refer to data, but they can. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Tue Jun 22 03:30:28 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <376ECF17.C12E2EB0@pacbell.net>; from David Brownell on Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:47:35PM -0700 References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E2@master.design-intelligence.com> <376ECF17.C12E2EB0@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <19990622113219.B6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:47:35PM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > > > When sensitive data needs to be hidden I would send it out > > subsetted in the xml: <name>joe</name> <phone>555-12345</phone> > None of the following argument is at all relevant. Both formats I presented in my example made the phone number accessible. Both could be used by automatic agents to perform all the privacy invading activities you warn against. You are focussing far too much on the specifics of the example (names and phone numbers) to express a generic objective to exposition of semantic content. What if the data were thus: <book> <title>The Structure of Scientific Revolutions T. S. Khun 400% and the two presentation examples were:

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions

Author: T. S. Khun

The Structure of Scientific Revolutions T. S. Khun Where is big brother in this? Where is the unspeakable danger of losing our freedoms and privacy? > When classifying information, there's an interesting category of > "sensitive but not classified" information, which is often more > useful in aggregate than in individual cases. Schedules for > transport could disclose military operations-to-be when many are > analysed together; one alone is innocuous. > > Phone numbers are a great example of such "sensitive" data, > particularly when linked with caller ID services that most phone > companies are pushing. (Less successfully in Calfirnia than in most > states, I'm pleased to report!) > > Example: Hmm, why is Karen calling from Joe's place again? Could > be those rumors are correct! I'll tell ... !! > > The web makes it easy to do such aggregations. Correlations against > "Joe" will have lots of noise; against "Joe" and that phone number, > a lot less. How is Joe going to be able to defend himself? Partly > by not disclosing information in aggregatable form ... removing the > labeling and content, pre-rendering it (HTML, FO, PDF, GIF, etc), > and so on. Partly by insisting that others not disclose such > information either. > > That means controlling the information accessible through the > "semantic web" ... if XSL is a tool that becomes effective at > controlling information spread, more power to it! (Both XSL-T and > XSL-FO.) And that's true of almost any information that's important > enough to share -- it can be important enough to merit protection, > too. > > > > As to the privacy argument (too easy to get information about > > other folk...): > > > > I agree, but having the information out there but hard to parse > > doesn't really solve the problem. It just lets those with more > > expertise, money, power define a first class which gets the > > information and a second class that doesn't. > > Which is always the case. The issue is how to keep the bar high > enough to have some balance; security and privacy are never > absolute, though lack of them can become absolute. And HTML raises the bar about half an inch off the ground -- annoying you when you trip over it, but easily stepped over. The real problem is you have to always remember it's there, and it might move (the webmaster might decide to pretty it up, or bung an ad in front). So it provides only aggravation for honest users, and does nothing at all to stop dishonest users. > You assumed the context of an intranet, so the threat was less > because access was restricted ... that's not particularly a good > assumption, since most crime is "insider" crime, by folk who know > the victim(s). True not just in the corporate world, but elsewhere. And don't forget my earlier comment. This isn't just about exposing personal information about humans. The real danger, to me, of keeping such a potent capability in the closet is that, in the absence of any real discussion of the nitty gritty details (which can only occur once the community has started to push in the direction of semantic content exposition), implementors will undertake courses of action that expose people to all the perils you warn against. They will not listen to the community when it says, "semantic content considered harmful." They will do it anyway (it is, after all an exceedingly useful concept), and they will do it badly. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 22 03:39:55 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19F0@master.design-intelligence.com> 1. If the transformation is done on the client side the result document still loses information, it's the original document that still has the information not the result document. 2. Transformations such as sorting could be accomplished through a rule saying: for all objects add a sortAscending attribute and give it the value of the attribute or name to sort by. Cases where XSL type power are needed are more complex, say repeating the same elements in more than one place. I don't recall a 'sort' operation in XSLT, did I miss it? I am not really arguing against the occasional need for transformations, but using transformations for rendering. Is there really a need for formatted objects? Some simple enhancements to a CSS type scheme could handle most cases. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com ---------- From: Paul Prescod [SMTP:paul@prescod.net] Sent: Monday, June 21, 1999 5:07 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: XSL and the semantic web Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > FO's force you to reconstruct your elements as formatting objects which lose > all contextual information from the original (both nesting and element > identification). In this way it is like translating to HTML (which was the > example). That is absolutely not true. If the transformation is done on the client side then *no information is lost* in the transformation because the original document is still available and can be referenced through the result document. The result document is just a view -- it can't destroy the original information any more than a database view could. > Why does information have to be destroyed for presentation? It is not > required (CSS doesn't do it). CSS doesn't solve the problems that XSL is required to solve and thus does not serve as a counter-example of another approach to solving the same problems. Please see my recent messages to Simon St. Laurent for examples. Here's a simple one though: I have a list of objects encoded in chronological order. I choose to display them in alphabetic order. How can I do this transformation without having a presentation that has lost the chronological ordering information? If you want the chronological order, you have to go back to the source tree! This is the case with XSL and it is going to be the case with any language of similar power. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Tue Jun 22 03:48:58 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <376DBD58.EE1E3089@prescod.net>; from Paul Prescod on Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:19:36AM -0400 References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376DBD58.EE1E3089@prescod.net> Message-ID: <19990622115109.C6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 12:19:36AM -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > > Then the following two transformations: > > > > > > Joe > > 555-12345 > > > > > >

Joe

> >

Phone: 555-12345

> > > > Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case > > of having more or less information. In the second example, even the > > structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the > > owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. > > Gratuitiously in what sense? You need to format the thing, right? > Therefore you need to map to formatting constructs. Yes, gratuitously. In the context of XSL, formatting can be done by a style sheet at the client end, hence there is no need to provide the final FO's. > > FO's leave you with what might as well be a GIF rendition of the > > information you are after > > That's a serious exaggeration. Can you text-index a GIF? Can you do a > "find word" in a GIF? Can you convert a GIF to RTF, load it into word for > Windows and start typing? None of the issues raised here applies to the discussion at hand, which is automated processing of content. This is what the "semantic web" is supposed to be about isn't it? Sure you can word index the HTML, but that won't tell you which word is the person's name. So let me be more explicit: FO's are, for the purposes of automated extraction of semantic content, little or no better than GIF's. > David is completely right that these things live on a spectrum. GIFs > are far, far down the end of the spectrum beyond FOs. > > > A qualified FO: > > > >

Joe

> >

Phone: 555-12345

> > > > would certainly go some way towards easing the strain though I > > don't know if typical FO models (XSL in particular) allow this > > much flexibility. > > I think that there is an important but subtle point that keeps > getting lost. The term "employee" is absolutely useless unless I > know know about it *in advance*. Unless I am expecting to get > thousands of documents about "employees" I can't set up the > stylesheets, queries, etc. to make this information useful. You shouldn't have to. Content providers should be quite capable of providing both the semantic content and machine-readable instructions for presenting it in a browser. This satisfies both the casual peruser with a generic client and the information seeker with custom-built tools. I would be surprised if the content provider went to all the effort of exposing semantic markup and then didn't bother to tell anyone what it meant. > An "H3" is more useful to a browser than an "EMPLOYEE" because the > former is *known in advance*. In all of this hand waving about the > semantic web, people seem to think that once you put the semantics > out everything just falls into place. Getting the semantics out is > the EASY PART. Rationalizing them is the hard part. Of course it's hard, and maybe people do expect too much. But neither of these points constitutes an argument against doing it. They are nothing more than a warning to be realistic in our expectations. In any case, none of this is going to prevent plain old generic access through a browser-with-stylesheet. > If Lexis-Nexis publishes its terabytes of data in a proprietary > document type, it might as well be Greek. HTML is more useful > because I can at least display it. This is patently false. All you need is a stylesheet, which it would be Lexis-Nexis' responsibility to provide you with if they wanted to let you display it (if you are arguing for HTML then obviously they want you to be able to display it). > Guessing at the structure of a document type from element type names > is as dangerous as guessing based on text content like colons and > font sizes. If you want the semantic web to be robust, you need > people to WANT to publish semantic data in *standardized document > types*. Even if we could force them to publish in semantic but > non-standard document types we would be no farther ahead! > > Trees: XSL being used to destroy semantic information. > > Forest: The hard work of building robust information systems that > will even *allow* us to share semantics meaningfully. This argument amounts to a throwing of the hands up in the air and saying, "It's just too hard. We shouldn't even try!" I frankly can't see what you would lose. Even in a worst case scenario where everyone decided to ignore everyone else and began using proprietary doctypes, you could still point your browser at Lexis-Nexis and display their documents with their stylesheets, which is no worse than we have now (and at least the semantics is there for those who know the structure). In the real world, people will get together, talk about it, decide on conventions, argue about whose convention is best and generally get on with it. There need be no guessing games involved (as there must inevitably be with HTML). It is much safer to say, "This is how to do it." than to say, "Don't do it!" People, seeing the enourmous potential of the "semantic web", will simply ignore the latter advice and do it in any old way and they will stuff it up. You cannot prohibit or ban the use of such a powerful concept no matter how dangerous or difficult it is. It is better to jump on top of it and tame it. > > I have to take issue, however, with the characterisation of the > > transformations as points on a spectrum. There is a very well > > defined distinction between transformation and formatting within > > the XSL model, hence the move to split it into two separate > > standards. > > Actually, the two processes in XSL would be better termed > "transformation" and "layout." Both steps do *formatting*. Choosing > which text becomes the footer text is certainly formatting but it is > done by the transformation part of the language. And I take you back to my original example, there is no continuum between and

or and
. Moreover, the example you give could easily be handled by separating the formatting parts of the transformation side into two stages, the non-formatting-related aspects at the server, and the formatting aspects at the client. One might argue that this blurs the distinction I am trying to make, but you obviously had no trouble categorically asserting that footers are a formatting construct. Is it ever really that difficult to discriminate between the two concepts? Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Tue Jun 22 03:53:23 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: <376ED392.FBCE4A56@prescod.net>; from Paul Prescod on Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 08:06:42PM -0400 References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> <376ED392.FBCE4A56@prescod.net> Message-ID: <19990622115509.D6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 08:06:42PM -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > > > FO's force you to reconstruct your elements as formatting objects which lose > > all contextual information from the original (both nesting and element > > identification). In this way it is like translating to HTML (which was the > > example). > > That is absolutely not true. If the transformation is done on the client > side then *no information is lost* in the transformation because the > original document is still available and can be referenced through the > result document. The result document is just a view -- it can't destroy > the original information any more than a database view could. But haven't you been arguing for providing FO's _at_the_server_? If you are suggesting transforming at the client, then you are _favouring_ the semantic web! I am really confused now. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From hirajima at tokiwa-info.co.jp Tue Jun 22 04:53:26 1999 From: hirajima at tokiwa-info.co.jp (Masahiko Hirajima) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: Unsubscibe Message-ID: <199906220255.AA01736@Thinkpad530cs.tokiwa-info.co.jp> unsubscribe xml-dev ******************************************** * Hirajima Masahiko * * Director * * Business Development & Marketing * * Tokiwa Information Co,. Ltd. * * TEL : 813-5828-1162 * * FAX : 813-5828-1175 * * Email : hirajima@tokiwa-info.co.jp * ******************************************** xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 05:04:50 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> <376ED392.FBCE4A56@prescod.net> <19990622115509.D6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376ED8ED.615E0FE5@prescod.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > But haven't you been arguing for providing FO's _at_the_server_? If > you are suggesting transforming at the client, then you are > _favouring_ the semantic web! I am really confused now. We are all in favor of the semantic web. It's motherhood and apple pie. Some people think that any technology that allows people to put non-semantic information on the Web is a bad technology. I respond a) every server-side technology since CGI has allowed people to dumb down their information including but not limited to the DOM, b) dumbing down information is an information provider's right in a capitalist society. Therefore the fact that XSL *can* be used in this way is irrelevant. It can also be used to transmit rich information to client machines. And if it is abused on the server side, well, that's okay with me also. I know of some large databases that would have otherwise been dumbed-down-to-the-Web through CGI that are now being dumbed-down by XSL. I don't see that as a legitimate argument against either CGI or XSL. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 05:23:07 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376DBD58.EE1E3089@prescod.net> <19990622115109.C6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376ED9D6.A7F9E2A4@prescod.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > Yes, gratuitously. In the context of XSL, formatting can be done by a > style sheet at the client end, hence there is no need to provide the > final FO's. Well, David has already pointed out that there are places where the full XSL engine cannot run on the client. He has also pointed out that there are business reasons for wanting to keep your semantic data private. > None of the issues raised here applies to the discussion at hand, > which is automated processing of content. This is what the "semantic > web" is supposed to be about isn't it? Sure you can word index the > HTML, but that won't tell you which word is the person's name. > > So let me be more explicit: FO's are, for the purposes of automated > extraction of semantic content, little or no better than GIF's. In another message in this thread you said that trying to hide information from automated extractors (spam-bots) through data-dumbing was a lost cause. It raised the bar "a half inch off of the ground." Now you're saying that dumbed-down-text is as hard to process as a GIF. Which is it? My personal opinion is that dumbed-down-text is not hard to process if you know the dumbing-down algorithm in advance. But it is very hard to process if you are trying to write a bot that will *predict* what a random site's data dumbing algorithm will be like. Trolling the Web for "shoe prices" is a lot harder when shoe prices are labelled as

's. My point of view is that making bot-creation harder is an information owner's perogerative. Making bot-creation easier is also the information owner's right. Charging extra money for the bot-friendly version is yet another right. > I would be surprised if the content provider went to all the effort of > exposing semantic markup and then didn't bother to tell anyone what it > meant. If their goal is not to share then that is exactly what they would do. That's my point: even if it were possible (which it isn't) to force people to share semantically meaningful data, the fact that it is semantically meaningful *to them* does not mean that it is meaningful *to you* without sufficiently smart software! Forcing them (as if it were possible) to distribute semantic data is only the start of the battle. > > If Lexis-Nexis publishes its terabytes of data in a proprietary > > document type, it might as well be Greek. HTML is more useful > > because I can at least display it. > > This is patently false. All you need is a stylesheet, which it would > be Lexis-Nexis' responsibility to provide you with if they wanted to > let you display it (if you are arguing for HTML then obviously they > want you to be able to display it). So what you are saying is that you need the information owner's help in understanding the information. That's what I'm saying also. Just getting it on the Web is not useful. Information owners need to *want* to build the semantic web so that they can help us interpret their data. > > Guessing at the structure of a document type from element type names > > is as dangerous as guessing based on text content like colons and > > font sizes. If you want the semantic web to be robust, you need > > people to WANT to publish semantic data in *standardized document > > types*. Even if we could force them to publish in semantic but > > non-standard document types we would be no farther ahead! > > > > Trees: XSL being used to destroy semantic information. > > > > Forest: The hard work of building robust information systems that > > will even *allow* us to share semantics meaningfully. > > This argument amounts to a throwing of the hands up in the air and > saying, "It's just too hard. We shouldn't even try!" No it isn't. Please read what I wrote above. Where did I say that we shouldn't try to build a semantic web? If anything, I said that we shouldn't try to *force organizations* that for some reason do not want to participate into doing so. Not only is it impossible and ill-conceived, it is just plain wrong from an economic and moral point of view. > Moreover, the example you give could easily be handled by separating > the formatting parts of the transformation side into two stages, the > non-formatting-related aspects at the server, and the formatting > aspects at the client. One might argue that this blurs the > distinction I am trying to make, but you obviously had no trouble > categorically asserting that footers are a formatting construct. Is > it ever really that difficult to discriminate between the two > concepts? Sure. Where do you insert boilerplate text? Is that formatting or transformation? In CSS it is formatting (since CSS doesn't do transformation) and in XSL it is transformation (since XSL formatting objects don't have prefixes). Where do you label something as being a block or inline? In CSS it is formatting. In XSL it is transformation. Where do you re-order the figure and the figure's caption? In some style languages (not CSS) this is possible without a transformation. In XSL it is a transformation. Where do you fetch the text from the other end of a cross-reference and stick it in the current location? In some style languages that is just a declaration in a simple style language. In others it is a transformation. If the only purpose of any transformation is for human display I call it formatting, no matter how sophisticated or complex it is. If you have some better distinction between formatting and transformation I would love to hear it. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 06:55:30 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:21 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19E2@master.design-intelligence.com> <376ECF17.C12E2EB0@pacbell.net> <19990622113219.B6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <376F17AF.BED416D4@pacbell.net> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > On Mon, Jun 21, 1999 at 04:47:35PM -0700, David Brownell wrote: > > Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > > > > > When sensitive data needs to be hidden I would send it out > > > subsetted in the xml: joe 555-12345 > > None of the following argument is at all relevant. ... except as yet another concrete example. From specifics, one can generalize. I've given other specifics at other times. The generalization is simple, and you've not addressed or disproven it: It's often an anti-goal to deliver "semantically rich" data to arbitrary clients. I'll also commend you to Paul Prescod's posts. As he pointed out, none of this is an argument against a "semantic web", but it just calls attentions to the limits of what it can be, or do. That "semantic web" exists between back end servers too; the fact that some clients may only get views to it doesn't mean it's not there! > The real danger, to me, of keeping such a potent capability in the > closet is that, That capability has been out of the closet since SGML started! > in the absence of any real discussion of the nitty > gritty details (which can only occur once the community has started to > push in the direction of semantic content exposition), implementors > will undertake courses of action that expose people to all the perils > you warn against. They will not listen to the community when it says, > "semantic content considered harmful." They will do it anyway (it is, > after all an exceedingly useful concept), and they will do it badly. I confess I don't follow your argument. People who manage databases are often quite aware of the risks of such disclosures. I don't assume they suddenly lose that awareness because they're on the web. It's the web designers (including some on this list) that I worry about; since often they don't care to learn from the past. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 07:06:02 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Interoperability (was " Nested DTDs") References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2779CC@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: <376EDB6D.3645C856@prescod.net> "DuCharme, Robert" wrote: > > >Hmm, except maybe the editor vendors - I noticed hastily-lettered > >"XML" flags lashed to the masts of SoftQuad, ArborText, Stilo, > >etc etc etc > > (and FrameMaker+SGML...) It is not fair to include any of these products which required *changes* to their parsers in order to accept XML. That certainly includes SQ and ArborText and I'll bet Stilo. FrameMaker doesn't accept XML *yet* as far as I know. > Once we add Omnimark to this list of SGML > tools, I think it shows that it *did* turn out to be the case. Omnimark was actually the rare exception. > but while these were being assembled from the > ground up, many tools already used in large production systems were > ready to hit the ground running with XML, and did. I strongly agree that XML benefitted from the existence of SGML tools. I do not, however, think that most of those tools really imported XML directly. My experience was that you either had to filter it (and often still do) or you had to get an upgrade to the product. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 07:07:48 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: X-Schema References: Message-ID: <376EDB75.47C6DBB1@prescod.net> Mark Birbeck wrote: > > I think ultimately it is because it is XML. You now have a document that > can be parsed and processed with the same tools that you use for all > your other documents. This makes a number of things a lot easier. For programmers. But I asked about usability, not programmability. XML instance syntax is certainly easier for programmers. > For example, when we have got a working approach to transclusion > with XLinks, I could include your schema inside my schema. DTDs and W3C XML schemas already do this without any special external standard. A general transclusion mechanism is not good for schemas anyhow -- you want to define custom import and export rules. > For me, though, the main problem with DTDs is not their syntax, but the > difficulty in validating a document that is based on two or more DTDs. I was asking about syntax in particular but I am interested in your other ideas. > With the current XML-Data approach, I can define the schema to be used > on a per-node basis, so including a node also includes the information > needed to validate it. Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. What XML data facility allows me to validate XLinks to transcluded "video nodes"? Link validation is a completely separate issue, IMHO. > This means that you > only actually extract the amount of schema you need for the document > being exported, and it makes schema very easy to maintain (you just have > to maintain the database). You've abstracted away the hard parts of the problem and described how easy it is to solve the easy ones. XML's primary goal is interoperability. Company A does not use the same database schema as company B. The primary purpose of the XML interchange is to help them to bridge that gap. The bridging can only be done through haggling, debating and hands-on schema development. If company A and company B used identically-schemed databases then they could have used CSV's, S-Exprs or something similiarly simple a decade ago. Heck, they could have output ten million SQL statements representing the contents of the database. There's no hard problem there. > So, to illustrate the point, I have 'objects' > of type article which can contain objects of type paragraph. When I > export an article I place on the article node a pointer to the article > schema. All the latter does is pull out schema information for the > article and all its children. However, if asked to export just a > paragraph of text from an article, I attach to that node a pointer to > the paragraph schema. Why pass any more? The validater doesn't need it. Piecewise schemas are an orthogonal issue to database generation of schemas. In most cases it will be simplest to send the whole article schema and have it be cached on the other side. But anyhow, from a validation point of view, a schema sent with the data is not any more useful than the schema you could devise by analyzing the data! For a schema to be useful for allowing interchange, it must be sent *in advance*. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 07:07:34 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <376EDB73.49267B60@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > I'm afraid - in my opinion at least - that this is a gross underestimation > of the capabilities of CSS. While CSS does not at present provide an easy > way to display graphics, this is: > > a) easy to add I agree. > b) dependent on XLink, which is thus far a no-show. Dozens of simple style languages do not have any dependence on a particular linking standard in order to implement graphics. All you need to do is to be able to say what attribute is the graphic referencing one! > Navigational mechanisms and cross references have similar dependencies on > XLink, but I see no reason why they should cause 'severe problems'. The navigational mechanisms that I mean have no dependencies on XLink. Tables of contents, indexes, forward and back buttons. These can (and should) all be generated with a *transformation language* but cannot be with an annotative language. > It's not there yet, mostly because XLink isn't there yet, but these are > hardly significant barriers. If you want, we can put this part of the > discussion back on www-style, and see what people come up with. Unlike > formatting objects, I think this is quite solvable. I might be tempted to try and make an annotative style languages that is as sophisticated as a transformation language but I tried and failed about five years ago. I subsequently found out that hundreds of people had tried it before me in dozens of different types of style languages for many different kinds of markup and word processing languages. Let me give you a real-world problem. Authors make links to images on a corporate website. Every image has an associated XML document. foo/bar/baz.gif has an associated foo/bar/baz.xml with metadata about the image, including a caption. With a transformational technology like XSL or DOM+Javascript, I split the string, reach into the associated XML document and retrieve the caption. I transform it into a peer element of the graphic. How do I handle this problem with CSS? Note that Leventhal is NOT against destructive transformations. Nor are any of the CSS designers that I know of. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Jun 22 09:52:08 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: David Brownell's message of "Mon, 21 Jun 1999 12:30:18 -0700" References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376E92CA.E282B7A1@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <86emj47he8.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> David Brownell writes: >> Are of a fundamentally different character. It is not a simply case >> of having more or less information. In the second example, even the >> structure of the information you are entitled to (and this from the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> owner's viewpoint) has been lost, and gratuitously so. > On what grounds can you claim "you" are "entitled" to such information? On the grounds that it was published to "you" on the web or otherwise? Come on, whether "you" have legal access to data is completely irrelevant to how it should be marked up. Are you seriously trying to argue that information publishers should use markup to make data as useless as possible, from the viewpoint that information consumers are probably accessing it illegally? -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Jun 22 10:32:29 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web In-Reply-To: Paul Prescod's message of "Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:29:33 -0400" References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F19DE@master.design-intelligence.com> <376ED392.FBCE4A56@prescod.net> <19990622115509.D6283@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376ED8ED.615E0FE5@prescod.net> Message-ID: <86aets7fih.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> Paul Prescod writes: >> But haven't you been arguing for providing FO's _at_the_server_? If >> you are suggesting transforming at the client, then you are >> _favouring_ the semantic web! I am really confused now. > We are all in favor of the semantic web. It's motherhood and apple pie. Glad to hear it! Of course, the web doesn't get a whole lot more semantic, just because people use XML. > a) every server-side technology since CGI has allowed people to dumb down > their information including but not limited to the DOM, Obviously, anybody can make up meaningless XML-tags. > b) dumbing down information is an information provider's right in a > capitalist society. Yeah, although chances are that they don't want to, in most cases. After all, they chose to publish to a public medium, normally, they wouldn't put out the information at all, if its semantics were important secrets. Normally. > Therefore the fact that XSL *can* be used in this way is irrelevant. Then why are we having this argument? If you look at the web today, a lot of semantics are lost, and at least as much due to incompetence and ignorance, as to poor technical solutions. "Web designers" are only concerned with building pages that look good on their own screens, in their own eyes, using their favorite brand of browser - and woe unto you if you have a small/large monitor, are color blind, have poor vision, use a text interface, etc etc. Technology doesn't destroy semantic content, people do. Thus I think it is very important that pushing semantically rich data becomes the norm, and that people who want to hide the semantic markup are the ones who have to go out of their way. We need tools and documents showing how to do it "right", and let those who perceive a need worry about how to do it any other way - at least, then they'd have to think things through. Personally, I worry about a future XML'ized web where documents are XML documents, each with their own (probably implicit) DTD, and silly style sheets matching XML tags like with the appropriate (or as it were, inappropriate) fomatting. Ideally, documents would follow a few DTDs - or at least DTDs derived from a handful of "base" DTDs, and carry links to style sheets of various types or perhaps rendering applets in java - which I could of course optionally override for specific needs. I'm not holding my breath. Okay, I guess this was a bit of a rant. I'll climb back into my hole now. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 22 11:01:47 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson >Of course, non-imaginary sheep move around while you're counting them, >so in a big flock at least one sheep is likely to be counted twice. Non-imaginary sheep are counted with the aid of a non-imaginary sheep dog to keep them in line. Q. Is a sheep dog therefore an instance of the Visitor pattern? Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Tue Jun 22 11:08:59 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: FOP 0.7.0 release with source Message-ID: <006901bebcf3$c0ea2dc0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> FOP: An XSL Formatter http://www.jtauber.com/fop/ This would have been 0.6.4 except that I wanted to go up a minor version for the release of the source. Changes in this version: A new mainline class XTCommandLine that enables straight XML+XSL to PDF (using XT which must be downloaded separately) without having to run an XSLT engine and save the formatting object tree as a separate step. Now handles multiple page sequences Separated out the PDF-specific code that was within the area/space classes. This makes FOP more modular and will enable alternative output formats in the future I look forward to people's comments on the source, which I have now made available under an Apache-style licence. James -- James Tauber / jtauber@jtauber.com / www.jtauber.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue Jun 22 12:00:59 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: David Brownell wrote, > John Cowan wrote: > > What's hard is *determining* identity. > Which I see as part of what "identity" is ... If that's how you want to use the word 'identity', fine: but it's not the way a lot of people use it. John's using the term in a way which is *completely* independent of anyones ability to establish whether or not two descriptive expressions pick out one and the same thing. That's quite a popular conception of identity with philosophers (the sensible ones, not the Foucaults and Derridas). The trouble with an idea of identity that ties it up with being able to tell whether two descriptions pick out the same or different things is that it has the unfortunate effect of relativising the idea to differing abilities to pick out differences. Lois Lane belives that Superman isn't the same person as Clark Kent. Clark Kent presumably believes otherwise. Which one of those two beliefs is true? On Johns view of identity we know that there's an answer to this question (even if we don't know what it is). What could we say on yours? Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue Jun 22 12:09:51 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java Message-ID: David Brownell wrote, > Miles Sabin writes: > > > Is there any chance of us changing that? How about > > an alternative start tag reporting interface which > > reports, > > > > startOpenElement(String name); > > startAttribute(String name); > > attributeCharacters(char[] chars, int off, int len); > > endAttribute(String name); > > endOpenElement(String name); > > Making an extra 2 (+3x #attributes) invocations per > element could also be a performance issue of no small > note! Don't forget that those calls are traded off against an awful lot of String construction (constructor calls and object allocation). > Miles -- you're on the right track re using the > extension mechanism for this functionality. What'd be > needed is parsers which would use it... I think that > the API calls you sketched above might do the job, > maybe even within the DTD. (I have no interest in > exposing parameter entity handling, FWIW!) Err ... well, actually, my parser _does_ work more or less the way I've described: SAX is layered on top. I'd quite like to be able to expose this additional information via SAX rather than having to use our proprietary APIs. Clearly, tho', this'd only be of any use if other parsers also implemented such a handler. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 22 14:33:01 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> References: <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <14191.33390.261094.335782@localhost.localdomain> Rick Jelliffe writes: > Non-imaginary sheep are counted with the aid of a non-imaginary > sheep dog to keep them in line. Q. Is a sheep dog therefore an > instance of the Visitor pattern? I'd guess that the sheep dog is the implementation of a queue, the sheep are the queue's members, and the shepherd who is counting the sheep is the visitor. All the best, David p.s. I own a Border Collie but no sheep. My frisbies are kept in a good line, though. -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 22 14:27:27 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <376E8B70.BF5B69C0@prescod.net> References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> <376EA449.53375F55@pacbell.net> <376E8B70.BF5B69C0@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14191.33079.483387.847518@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > I'm not so concerned about the folks on this list as the folks who are > writing specs. They write as if the concept of identity were well-defined > in the Web context (see, e.g. RDF and XLink) when clearly it is not. As I mentioned in an earlier posting, the concepts are not that difficult once you understand that the dichotomy is known-to-be-identical/not-known-to-be-identical rather than identical/different. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 17:28:42 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <376EDB73.49267B60@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> At 08:40 PM 6/21/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >"Simon St.Laurent" wrote: >> I'm afraid - in my opinion at least - that this is a gross underestimation >> of the capabilities of CSS. While CSS does not at present provide an easy >> way to display graphics, this is: >> >> a) easy to add > >I agree. Glad to hear that. >> b) dependent on XLink, which is thus far a no-show. > >Dozens of simple style languages do not have any dependence on a >particular linking standard in order to implement graphics. All you need >to do is to be able to say what attribute is the graphic referencing one! Yes, you could do that. But that kind of decoupling is neither necessary nor an especially good thing. I see no reason for CSS to develop its own linking mechanisms in advance of XLink, apart from the fact that the XLink spec is 15 months+ old. You seem to be in favor of making every spec as powerful as possible on its own terms, without consideration for how it should integrate with other specs later. I would much rather build specs as an integrated whole, rather than create features that will take developers on extended detours later. This may just be a philosophical difference, but it underlies many of the points in this debate. >> Navigational mechanisms and cross references have similar dependencies on >> XLink, but I see no reason why they should cause 'severe problems'. > >The navigational mechanisms that I mean have no dependencies on XLink. >Tables of contents, indexes, forward and back buttons. These can (and >should) all be generated with a *transformation language* but cannot be >with an annotative language. I can do all of that now with the DOM and simple scripting. I don't need XSL to do that by any means. >Let me give you a real-world problem. Authors make links to images >on a corporate website. Every image has an associated XML document. >foo/bar/baz.gif has an associated foo/bar/baz.xml with metadata about the >image, including a caption. With a transformational technology like XSL or >DOM+Javascript, I split the string, reach into the associated XML document >and retrieve the caption. I transform it into a peer element of the >graphic. How do I handle this problem with CSS? Easily. You use DOM for your processing, and CSS for your presentation, rather than mixing your tree-building and formatting. CSS doesn't exist in a vacuum. >Note that Leventhal is NOT against destructive transformations. Nor are >any of the CSS designers that I know of. Hello, my name is Simon and I'm a 'CSS Designer'. Destructive transformations _on the client_ I can accept. Encouraging destructive transformations _on the server_ is disturbing at best, and not something I think we should be promoting - and I strongly hope the W3C doesn't encourage that by providing tools for doing it. If that means reconfiguring XSL, that's fine. That's what working drafts are for, after all. XSL in its present form is unnecessary, doing nothing new (the Leventhal argument), and brings with it new dangers (an easy move away from the semantic Web). To me, that's a pretty good case for passing on XSL. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 17:23:58 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL and the semantic web References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161526.LAA22488@hesketh.net> <3767CF1C.503A6E9A@pacbell.net> <19990617101522.A3103@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376909AA.A17D32D0@pacbell.net> <19990621120519.A6618@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> <376E92CA.E282B7A1@pacbell.net> <86emj47he8.fsf@ketilboks.bgo.nera.no> Message-ID: <376FAAD9.1E7C67D1@pacbell.net> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > Come on, whether "you" have legal access to data is completely > irrelevant to how it should be marked up. Are you seriously trying to > argue that information publishers should use markup to make data as > useless as possible, from the viewpoint that information consumers are > probably accessing it illegally? Hmm, I don't think I used the words "useless" or "illegal" ... the points I was using were more subtle than that. Go back and read what "sensitive" data is, and why information publishers will often want to make it hard to mine such data. Read what Paul wrote about pay-for-value service providers. The statement is simple, and isn't usefully arguable: providers of information choose its formats for a variety of reasons, and making it accessible for purposes other than presentation isn't always one of them. People who want to build "information consumer" systems need to address the (creative?) tensions with providers of that information. It doesn't seem too workable to demand that all system decisions be made by the builders of clients ... which is how I'm reading far too many of the comments on this thread! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Tue Jun 22 17:37:13 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: Oracle XML components speak most languages.. In-Reply-To: <14191.33390.261094.335782@localhost.localdomain> References: <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990622083033.00bb9d90@mail.userland.com> I just saw this article on News.Com: http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,38171,00.html?st.ne.fd.mdh.ni I was wondering if there's anyone from Oracle on this list? If so, please contact me privately, dave@userland.com. I'd like to talk with you about XML-RPC and Oracle databases. http://www.xmlrpc.com/ It seems it would be trivial to connect Oracle databases to all kinds of different scripting environments running on different platforms. I know many developers would like to see this happen. Think about it, you could add Perl, Python, Java, Tcl and our own Frontier to the list of languages that can talk to Oracle databases thru XML. Evangelistically.. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 22 17:51:12 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:22 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <004f01bebcbf$59a8e950$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Simon St.Laurent >XSL in its present form is unnecessary, doing nothing new (the Leventhal >argument), and brings with it new dangers (an easy move away from the >semantic Web). To me, that's a pretty good case for passing on XSL. We do not have a semantic Web anyway: at least not until there are widely accepted and used controlled vocabularies installed. And there is a level of markup even within semantically-marked-up data that can usefully be asemantic (if that is a word) (i.e., generic markup against uncontrolled vocabularies: labels) or even non-semantic (i.e. processing). Transforming to (that is not the correct syntax, dont flame me, it is just an example) does not convert the data away from being usable on the semantic web: if there is nothing to tie "person" into some controlled vocabulary, you didn't have "semantic markup" anyway. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jackpark at thinkalong.com Tue Jun 22 18:05:05 1999 From: jackpark at thinkalong.com (Jack Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XMLEditorKit Message-ID: I have been studying the issue of construction of a new EditorKit for javax.swing. I suspect that XMLEditorKit, and XMLDocument are needed. Before I begin hacking UML diagrams and Java code, this question: anyone else thinking about or going down the same path? Also: any comments/criticisms of the idea would be appreciated. Cheers Jack Park xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 22 18:05:04 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: Identity References: Message-ID: <376FB4A3.61C607A@pacbell.net> Miles Sabin wrote: > > David Brownell wrote, > > John Cowan wrote: > > > What's hard is *determining* identity. > > Which I see as part of what "identity" is ... > > If that's how you want to use the word 'identity', fine: > but it's not the way a lot of people use it. It's the way some other lot of people use it ... :-) > John's > using the term in a way which is *completely* > independent of anyones ability to establish whether or > not two descriptive expressions pick out one and the > same thing. That's quite a popular conception of > identity with philosophers (the sensible ones, not the > Foucaults and Derridas). Hmm, so you think that "what identity is" is the same problem as "are these identities the same"? I'm not sure I'd go that far, and I certainly wasn't assuming that all three questions were inseparable. There are types of "identity" where you can't answer that question in all cases. > The trouble with an idea of identity that ties it up > with being able to tell whether two descriptions pick > out the same or different things is that it has the > unfortunate effect of relativising the idea to differing > abilities to pick out differences. Unfortunate? Hmm. All of us have differing abilities. Why is it unfortunate to acknowledge that in our thinking? It seems fine to me to acknowledge limitations, and accept that "we see through a glass, darkly". The notion of an absolute truth, which is independent of perceptions, is not universally accepted. For one example, Heisenberg had things to say about that, even in the case of seemingly simple physical objects. > Lois Lane belives > that Superman isn't the same person as Clark Kent. Clark > Kent presumably believes otherwise. Which one of those > two beliefs is true? On Johns view of identity we know > that there's an answer to this question (even if we > don't know what it is). What could we say on yours? When you define the identities carefully, all becomes clear. For example, there is at least one Lois Lane who believes as Clark Kent does and thus renders that question meaningless! (Excercise for the reader: how is that Lois Lane the same identity as the one Miles mentioned? How is she different?) On the other hand ... wasn't Superman the "secret identity"? Isn't there something distinct between "normal" and "secret" identities? Even beyond mild manners and being a reporter? Why wouldn't Clark have multiple identities? To the original subject of this debate, I find the lesson clear: until you choose a clear definition of "identity", you can't begin to answer simple questions like "what is the identity of the web resource whose URI is X". And there are a lot of nuanced definitions people choose, all the time. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 18:15:41 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <376F75BA.6D07018D@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > Yes, you could do that. But that kind of decoupling is neither necessary > nor an especially good thing. I see no reason for CSS to develop its own > linking mechanisms in advance of XLink, apart from the fact that the XLink > spec is 15 months+ old. You seem to be in favor of making every spec as > powerful as possible on its own terms, without consideration for how it > should integrate with other specs later. I would much rather build specs > as an integrated whole, rather than create features that will take > developers on extended detours later. It isn't an extended detour. People often need to display images based on computed values that are NOT represented as links. I gave one example in my last message and there are many more. Linking is one thing. Displaying images is a separate thing. Displaying images referenced by links is a combination of these features. > >The navigational mechanisms that I mean have no dependencies on XLink. > >Tables of contents, indexes, forward and back buttons. These can (and > >should) all be generated with a *transformation language* but cannot be > >with an annotative language. > > I can do all of that now with the DOM and simple scripting. I don't need > XSL to do that by any means. Okay, fine, so you are *in favor* of destructive transformations. You just prefer the Javascript+DOM syntax for them. Can we please put away the "semantic web" rhetoric then? > >Note that Leventhal is NOT against destructive transformations. Nor are > >any of the CSS designers that I know of. > > Hello, my name is Simon and I'm a 'CSS Designer'. Sorry I wasn't clear: I was talking about Hakon, Bos and Lilley. > Destructive transformations _on the client_ I can accept. Encouraging > destructive transformations _on the server_ is disturbing at best, and not > something I think we should be promoting - and I strongly hope the W3C > doesn't encourage that by providing tools for doing it. They already do! The DOM can be used on the client OR server side just as XSL can. There *is no difference* except syntax and processing model. The DOM can be just as destructive as XSL can. The DOM can be used to disable semantics just as XSL can. > XSL in its present form is unnecessary, doing nothing new (the Leventhal > argument), and brings with it new dangers (an easy move away from the > semantic Web). To me, that's a pretty good case for passing on XSL. Argh. The technology for disabling the semantic web has been available since CGI. Insofar as XSL can be used within CGI-like technologies, XSL can be used to disable the semantic web. So can the DOM. If you want to argue that XSL does nothing new, then that's one thing. But if you are going to pursue this "disabling the semantic web" stuff you'll have to show that XSL is somehow better at doing so than the DOM, which you seem to think is just fine. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 18:20:53 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <004f01bebcbf$59a8e950$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906221622.MAA31217@hesketh.net> At 12:56 AM 6/23/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >Transforming to class="person"> >(that is not the correct syntax, dont flame me, it is just an example) >does >not convert the data away from being usable on the semantic web: if >there >is nothing to tie "person" into some controlled vocabulary, you didn't >have >"semantic markup" anyway. _If_ people included the class attribute you've added above, this isn't destructive markup anyway, at least not in the strong sense we've been describing. In the larger case, however, I think this argument obscures the difference between: Semantics have been removed and Semantics we can't understand I can send out documents using CSS and any DTD I want, and you can see them in a browser. Machine-readability may be difficult if the program hasn't been trained for the semantics, but at least the semantic markup is there. Humans can still figure out 'lastname' and 'firstname' (cultural issues can cause mixups, of course) and provide the necessary interpolation. It's not as good as a standardized DTD we all know, love, and come to expect, but at least we can still provide mapping for it by hand. Even in harder cases, say where the semantics are in another language, there's still hope through traditional dictionary approaches and other interesting possibilities, without having to analyze the entire document and make guesses based on formatting and further guesses about what the labels are. Yes, we need controlled vocabularies. Their absence, however, does not suggest that we need to rush our data to a controlled vocabulary that only describes formatting. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 18:30:46 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <376F75BA.6D07018D@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906221633.MAA31717@hesketh.net> At 07:38 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >But if you are going to pursue this "disabling the semantic web" stuff >you'll have to show that XSL is somehow better at doing so than the DOM, >which you seem to think is just fine. Sure thing. XSL provides a semantic-free vocabulary for representing content. The DOM just juggles tree structures. CSS just annotates those structures for presentation. XSL provides a quick path from semantic documents to semantic-free presentation that is _possible_ in DOM+CSS, but is neither easy nor recommended. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Jun 22 18:47:14 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: Identity References: <002d01bebc86$3449bd80$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <376FAB54.251F2BE7@locke.ccil.org> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > Q. Is a sheep dog therefore an instance of the > Visitor > pattern? >From the dog's viewpoint, yes. From the sheep's viewpoint, it is an instance of the Predator pattern. See _Babe_. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 22 18:46:58 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <006801bebcc7$1be3f2b0$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Simon St.Laurent >In the larger case, however, I think this argument obscures the difference >between: > >Semantics have been removed > and >Semantics we can't understand But removing a label does not remove semantics unless that label has semantics (available through markup or hardcoded into the application.) There is nothing more semantic about than . (In old SGML terms, is *more* semantic than . ) XML is designed for resolved use; SGML was designed for the world where a human gets a document and tries to figure out a tricky way to use it. XML shouldn't go back into that SGML minefield: it is to difficult to resolve against the Web paradigm. In XSL you can generate linking attributes which point to a controlled vocabulary or which which point to the original document anyway. So your argument here is not about XSL at all, but about one particular use of XSL. >Yes, we need controlled vocabularies. Their absence, however, does not >suggest that we need to rush our data to a controlled vocabulary that only >describes formatting. But XSL has a transformation language, so presumably it is transforming from a more abstract kind of markup. Are you saying that is it always wrong to make data available in formatting markup? That would be a strange thing for the developer of FOP. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at webcriteria.com Tue Jun 22 19:15:07 1999 From: chris at webcriteria.com (Chris Tilt) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> <199906221633.MAA31717@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <376FC3AC.C8CACD4D@webcriteria.com> Perhaps an example that *requires* both XSL would satisfy the skeptics...perhaps not :-( Requires may be too strong, but I hate to think of doing the job without both tools. We are using XSL (thanks James for XT!) in a pipe-lined architecture to take "documents" from specifications to full-blown presentations that eventually end in either HTML or PDF (via FOP). There are at least three stages in the pipe-line and a fork depending on final rendering, which all run on a server under a JVM (with no JavaScript support). This is a large document that gets broken up into several pages in the HTML form. I don't see how we could use CSS+DOM in these stages. The final HTML is generated with CSS for presentation on browsers and at this point has lost most of its semantics. The PDF uses FOs and as far as I know isn't likely to be supported by any kind of CSS or DOM structure. My appologies if I missed the deeper meaning in all of this fussing over a semantic web. Cheers, Chris ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Chris Tilt WebCriteria, Inc. CTO, VP Engineering 2140 SW Jefferson, Suite 210 Portland, OR 97201, USA mailto:chris@webcriteria.com voice: 503 225 2991 http://www.webcriteria.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 19:14:13 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <006801bebcc7$1be3f2b0$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906221716.NAA01135@hesketh.net> At 01:49 AM 6/23/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >But removing a label does not remove semantics unless that label has >semantics (available through markup or hardcoded into the application.) >There is nothing more semantic about than . If you can figure out the meaning and do something with it, machine or otherwise, I'd be happy to argue that semantics are present. Perhaps not universal, perhaps not convenient enough, but they are indeed present, unless you're using a much more restrictive definition of semantics than I've ever encountered. >In XSL you can generate linking attributes which point to a controlled >vocabulary or which which point to the original document anyway. >So your argument here is not about XSL at all, but about one particular >use of XSL. Er... isn't generating formatting objects what _XSL_ is all about? (Yes, I'm aware that XSLT will let you generate other vocabularies.) >But XSL has a transformation language, so presumably it is transforming >from a more abstract kind of markup. Are you saying that is it always >wrong >to make data available in formatting markup? I'm saying that it is wrong to create a formatting tool that encourages developers to make data available _only_ in formatting markup, without providing the original semantics. This approach takes us away from the intelligent Web that the seemed to be the goal of the original XML development, and puts us in a hell perhaps worse than that already created by HTML's limited semantics. Imagine a table of developers who want to create agents. After years of battling HTML (and mostly losing), they're writing their resumes, leaving the field. While digging around for the latest buzzwords, they find the XML spec. Cheers go up, and the developers are ready to go out again and build new tools for collecting and using information. Then the XSL spec arrives, and rumors of 'semantic firewalls' come in from XSL-List. The agent designers sit down again and work on their resumes, hoping to finally get out of a field that the W3C encourages with their public statements and discourages with concrete proposals. The goodwill of information providers isn't strong enough encouragement to bank a career on. >That would be a strange >thing for the developer of FOP. I'm not the developer of FOP - that's James Tauber. It would indeed be strange for him to be saying such things. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 19:21:40 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> <376EA449.53375F55@pacbell.net> <376E8B70.BF5B69C0@prescod.net> <376EC0CC.1EF5BB28@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <376F7718.71EC8F6C@prescod.net> David Brownell wrote: > > There's a loose notion of "equivalence"; you can ask if > an object reference is equivalent to another. Primarily > that's a syntactical operation designed to let you create > tables keyed by object reference, without duplication; it's > explicitly understood that the objects two references refer > to may in fact be "the same" without having the refences be > "equivalent". (Some replication schemes work like that, as > do many proxying and load balancing schemes ... large systems > use such techniques all over the place.) What I hear you saying is that the situation at the OMG is identical to that in Java, Python, the ODMG and most other object-based environments. There is a very basic notion of equivalence that you can depend upon when you are enumerating objects at a low level. Object types can invent higher level concepts of identity and equivalence if they want to. In XML, we will soon have a concept of element and attribute identity specified by the XML Information Set. Unfortunately, the URIs that get us to XML documents do not have the same concept. There is no way that I know of to declare that two URIs point to the same object. The best you can do is say that one URI is a redirection to the other. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue Jun 22 20:00:45 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <007701bebcd1$6f393740$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Simon St.Laurent >At 01:49 AM 6/23/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >If you can figure out the meaning and do something with it, machine or >otherwise, I'd be happy to argue that semantics are present. Perhaps not >universal, perhaps not convenient enough, but they are indeed present, >unless you're using a much more restrictive definition of semantics than >I've ever encountered. Old SGML hacks used semantics to mean any markup not concerned with abstract labelling, including formatting. RDF people use semantics to mean linked to controlled vocabularies. The usage of "semantics" in neither communities seems to match your usage, where semantic markup includes "human-guessable" (presumably primarily to those in a dialect group). >Er... isn't generating formatting objects what _XSL_ is all about? (Yes, >I'm aware that XSLT will let you generate other vocabularies.) I don't think I would like to reduce what XML is all about to a single statement. But I cannot see that it is anywhere about blocking links to higher-level or original markup in the generated document. >This approach takes us away from the >intelligent Web that the seemed to be the goal of the original XML >development, and puts us in a hell perhaps worse than that already created >by HTML's limited semantics. Limited meaning-semantics are not solved by labelling, but by linking to well-known vocabularies. Like I said, just providing labelled data does little (except allow better guesswork, I suppose). >Imagine a table of developers who want to create agents. Imagine a company that makes money by providing data over the Web; the data may be freely available but it is their markup that provides the added value on which they build their company. They might easily want to provide the public with data in forms that protect their labelling and semantic investment. If they think agents will be good for their customers or business, that should be their choice: they can generate RDF if they want semantic markup, or just the vanilla XML if they want to provide only labelled data. >I'm not the developer of FOP - that's James Tauber. It would indeed be >strange for him to be saying such things. Blush...I had just been thinking of him (laughing at the name FOP actually, I hope antipodeans are not the only ones amused by the name). Brain spasm from too many Dragon Boats and tonsils here. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 22 20:27:48 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <376FB4A3.61C607A@pacbell.net> References: <376FB4A3.61C607A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <14191.50211.442497.995966@localhost.localdomain> David Brownell writes: > On the other hand ... wasn't Superman the "secret identity"? > Isn't there something distinct between "normal" and "secret" > identities? Even beyond mild manners and being a reporter? > Why wouldn't Clark have multiple identities? Here's an interesting problem -- in the world of DC comics, there exists no time T in which Superman and Clark Kent both exist simultaneously, and as a corollary, there exists no person P such that P is both Superman and Clark Kent. On the other hand, there does exist a person who is always *either* Clark Kent or Superman. Does this constitute identity? If so, then I'd imagine that the same IP addressed used serially for foo.com, bar.com, and foo.com again also establishes the identity of those domains. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ngill at eecs.uic.edu Tue Jun 22 21:18:52 1999 From: ngill at eecs.uic.edu (Navreena Gill) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: Help in designing application in xml Message-ID: Hello everyone, I am in the pursuit to get my feet wet in xml. I have a school project to design order forms for some sample products over the internet. I was panning on using HTML and servlets at the back end. Is there a way I can use XML? I have been trying to surf the net with all that info about xml. My first question is can I use HTML's GUI part with XML and display it over the internet (what are XHLML). I did find some stuff on using java servlets to post HTTP xml messages. Thankx everybody, xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue Jun 22 21:25:35 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Miles Sabin | | The trouble with an idea of identity that ties it up with being able | to tell whether two descriptions pick out the same or different | things is that it has the unfortunate effect of relativising the | idea to differing abilities to pick out differences. This approach can be taken pretty far. For example, there are philosophical schools (notably the Zen and Buddhist ones) that hold that a division of the world into discrete 'things' is undesirable and thus kills the very concept of identity stone dead. And if you start to look closely at it there is a lot to be said for this way of thinking. However, this discussion seems mainly to have been founded on Kant and his view that we are subjects receiving impressions of the world and on the basis on those impressions deciding that the world is composed of objects with identity. | Lois Lane belives that Superman isn't the same person as Clark | Kent. Clark Kent presumably believes otherwise. Which one of those | two beliefs is true? Within that fictional universe, two main approaches seem useful: a) Settle for some function that can be applied to sensory data to infer from a continuous stream of such data the existence and state of various discrete chunks that we can then label with identifiers. In the example one such definition could be the naive one that we use in every-day life to identify people we know. Under this definition Clark Kent and Superman are the identifiers of two distinct people to everyone except the one person who knows that these two are in fact one person and that his correct identifier is Kal-El. This is not a very desirable approach, since all observers will not necessarily agree on the identity of each object. b) Alternatively, one can postulate that behind the stream of sensory data we receive there is in fact a world consisting of discrete chunks and that these chunks have as one of their properties identifiers that hopefully are unique. In the example this would be as if we used social security number[1] to identify people. Clark Kent would readily give his, but unless you could entice Superman to give his SSN you would never be able to discover that these two are in fact (under this definition) one and the same person. And in some cases, such as in the case of the illegal alien who washes Kent's office, the person has no SSN at all. And so this approach turns out to be slightly more desirable, provided that everyone is willing to play along. (Where everyone includes Superman, illegal aliens and the government.) And for those who are not willing to play along it seems to me that approach (a) can be used as a fallback strategy. Now, if you substitute user-agent for person, HTTP response for sensory data and resource for chunk, then as far as I can tell (a) is the situation we have on the web today, and (b) is the one Paul Prescod proposed with his HTTP-ID HTTP header. None of these approaches really settle the question of identity one way or the other, but rather do as we do in everyday life: postulate that there is an underlying identity and proceed with every-day life with that as an article of faith. The Buddhists would claim that this leads to eternal suffering, and the Kantians would claim that this is the best possible approach. Not being really into the Buddhist way of seeing things I think I'll opt for the latter approach. --Lars M. [1] Or whatever your national equivalent is. Personnummer, in my case. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 22 21:44:31 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:23 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> <199906221633.MAA31717@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <376FC28A.462BFDE5@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 07:38 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > >But if you are going to pursue this "disabling the semantic web" stuff > >you'll have to show that XSL is somehow better at doing so than the DOM, > >which you seem to think is just fine. > > Sure thing. XSL provides a semantic-free vocabulary for representing > content. One of the very first deliverables of the World Wide Web Consortium was a semantic-free vocabulary called "HTML." It has been the target of terabyes of dumbed-down information. Here is a non-comprehensive list of technologies that have been (and will be) involved in this dumbing-down: * Python * Perl * Java * ASP * JSP * SQL * Ominmark * Zope * PHP * Cold Fusion * DSSSL * the DOM * ACE * TCL In fact, every single one of them claims to make this dumbing down *easy*. Horrors! Between the W3C colluding on the one side via HTML and XHTML with the vendors on the other side, we won't have any semantic data on the Web ever, it seems! I hereby mourn the passing of the semantic web. We hardly new ye! As part of my mourning period I now begin a three minute boycott of the above technologies and a permanent boycott of threads discussing XSL's impact on the "semantic web." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco [Woody Allen on Hollywood in "Annie Hall"] Annie: "It's so clean down here." Woody: "That's because they don't throw their garbage away. They make it into television shows." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 22:03:02 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <007701bebcd1$6f393740$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906222005.QAA09130@hesketh.net> At 03:05 AM 6/23/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >Old SGML hacks used semantics to mean any markup not concerned with >abstract labelling, including formatting. RDF people use semantics to >mean >linked to controlled vocabularies. The usage of "semantics" in neither >communities seems to match your usage, where semantic markup >includes "human-guessable" (presumably primarily to those in a dialect >group). I think we're going to have to accept that 'semantic' means different things to different dialect groups, even within the XML community. I'll definitely push for semantic to mean meaningful, even at different levels of meaning. Automatically machine-readable is not required for my interpretation of semantic, but human-readable and _potentially_ machine-readable certainly are. It'll be a while before we arrive at controlled vocabularies that are mutually understood - I don't want to see that process hijacked by a formatting-oriented controlled vocabulary (and its associated processing) before we have a chance to develop more meaningful vocabularies. >Limited meaning-semantics are not solved by labelling, but by linking >to well-known vocabularies. Like I said, just providing labelled data >does little (except allow better guesswork, I suppose). It's an intermediate step that allows us to reach controlled vocabularies without convening enormous congresses to decide on official vocabularies. It's not perfect, but it's much better than nothing (aka a formatting-only vocabulary.) 'Mere' labelling is adequate for a wide variety of tasks. >Imagine a company that makes money by providing data over the Web; >the data may be freely available but it is their markup that provides >the added value on which they build their company. They might easily >want to provide the public with data in forms that protect their >labelling and semantic investment. If they think agents will be >good for their customers or business, that should be their choice: >they can generate RDF if they want semantic markup, or just the >vanilla XML if they want to provide only labelled data. First, we're not even talking about 'vanilla XML' here - we're talking primarily about XSL FOs. Technically, it's XML, but it's scrubbed down to be without semantic content in the markup. Is this behavior that the W3C wants to encourage? I've argued before that this strikes at the heart of what XML was designed to do in the first place, and that it's a hazard standing in the way of making the Web more useful rather than merely more readable. Treating semantics as 'added value' is perhaps good for windfall profits, but lousy for the Web and its development. If companies are concerned about information reuse, they should look into other mechanisms for limiting redistribution, including the simple step of putting a group of copyright lawyers on retainer. There are other ways to solve these problems that don't involve keeping the Web as dumb as possible. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dmoisan at shore.net Tue Jun 22 22:20:34 1999 From: dmoisan at shore.net (David Moisan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: XML.ORG down? Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990622162236.008992f0@shell1.shore.net> I've been trying to open xml.org all day; my browser thinks it's down. Anyone know what's up with them? Take care, Dave David Moisan, N1KGH, GROL dmoisan@shore.net Invisible Disability: http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue Jun 22 22:24:20 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <376FC28A.462BFDE5@prescod.net> References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> <199906221633.MAA31717@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906222026.QAA10040@hesketh.net> At 01:06 PM 6/22/99 -0400, you wrote: >"Simon St.Laurent" wrote: >> >> At 07:38 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: >> >But if you are going to pursue this "disabling the semantic web" stuff >> >you'll have to show that XSL is somehow better at doing so than the DOM, >> >which you seem to think is just fine. >> >> Sure thing. XSL provides a semantic-free vocabulary for representing >> content. > >One of the very first deliverables of the World Wide Web Consortium was a >semantic-free vocabulary called "HTML." It has been the target of terabyes >of dumbed-down information. HTML has been a tremendous success in that regard, letting people get started without requiring enormous understanding. However, HTML was an opening step that made the Web possible (SGML sure didn't do it), giving the world exposure to the use of marked-up text for human-readable hypertext creation. HTML's limitations became very clear fairly quickly. The agent developers smashed into it early on, having to give up their hopes because every site looked totally different and it was too hard to figure out what information was what. Regular Web developers found themselves ensnared in browser incompatibilities as competitive pressures created incompatible dialects. Turning to plug-ins, incompatibilities between browsers and plug-ins and plug-ins and information sources became enormous issues. XML was supposed to remove these obstacles and _create_ the possibility of a semantic Web. Agent developers would at least get reasonable hints to figure out what information was what. Web developers could escape the conflicts of browser-developer-mandated vocabularies and turn to formatting standards that would let them present information without having to incinerate the underlying meaning of the documents. Plug-ins might still have issues, but at least data formats could be unified under an open format that could avoid the ugliest problems of their predecessors. This dream was just getting started when it became clear that a tool that was supposed to be a key part of XML's march forward could, in fact, be used to go backward, into formatting domains that make HTML look meaningful. Not only that, but the entire architecture of the tool made such backward transformations easy and recommended practice. By putting half the spec's support on one side of a transaction and the other half on the other, one side could get all the intelligence and the other side some pretty-looking babble. XML is now facing a U-turn, before it had even really marched out on the Web. If you disagree, that's fine. Just don't try to claim that "XSL is no worse than HTML and we should all love it because of that." XML was an attempt to do better than HTML, and these claims ring hollow. >I hereby mourn the passing of the semantic web. We hardly >new ye! As part of my mourning period I now begin a three minute boycott >of the above technologies and a permanent boycott of threads discussing >XSL's impact on the "semantic web." Then I suppose the semantic Web must be stillborn, as it hasn't arrived yet. As for your permanent boycott of discussion, that may be sensible for an issue where both sides believe their arguments too strongly to give ground. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tupshin at tupshin.com Tue Jun 22 23:17:11 1999 From: tupshin at tupshin.com (Tupshin Harper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: XML.ORG down? In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.19990622162236.008992f0@shell1.shore.net> Message-ID: <000301bebcf4$b7cf97b0$3905b9d8@verso.com> It looks like the DNS server for xml.org changed it's ip address, but didn't lower the name caching time prior to doing so. According to dig it will be about 23 hours before it works properly again. A workaround would be to add www.xml.org to your hosts file so it would override the incorrect dns info. The correct address is 209.41.64.203. Just going directly to that number won't work since it is virtual hosted and requires the name to be in the address, or else you go to www.unicomp.net. System administrator=bonehead. -Tupshin Harper -Programmer/Network Administrator -Studio Verso > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > David Moisan > Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 1:23 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: XML.ORG down? > > > I've been trying to open xml.org all day; my browser thinks it's down. > Anyone know what's up with them? > > Take care, > > Dave > > David Moisan, N1KGH, GROL dmoisan@shore.net > Invisible Disability: > http://www1.shore.net/~dmoisan/invisible_disability.html > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From francis at redrice.com Tue Jun 22 23:52:50 1999 From: francis at redrice.com (Francis Norton) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906111851.OAA05005@hesketh.net> <199906141411.KAA11113@hesketh.net> <199906161522.LAA22347@hesketh.net> <199906221530.LAA28942@hesketh.net> <199906221633.MAA31717@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37700641.B6C401C7@redrice.com> I'm losing track of who is on which side in this debate, but... "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 07:38 AM 6/22/99 -0400, Paul Prescod wrote: > >But if you are going to pursue this "disabling the semantic web" stuff > >you'll have to show that XSL is somehow better at doing so than the DOM, > >which you seem to think is just fine. > > Sure thing. XSL provides a semantic-free vocabulary for representing > content. The DOM just juggles tree structures. CSS just annotates those > structures for presentation. XSL provides a quick path from semantic > documents to semantic-free presentation that is _possible_ in DOM+CSS, but > is neither easy nor recommended. > ... how about advertising-funded info-sources as an example of data that should be presented in as non-machine-semantic (if you'll forgive the neoligism) a form as possible? Until or unless we have an ethical model that allows meta-search engines and meta-price feeds to promise to pass on the adverts as well as the data, the survival of these handy services may depend partly on their output have a low level of machine semantics. Yuck. Francis. -- Francis Norton. Air Rage - a "flight *and* fight" reaction? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed Jun 23 00:12:09 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <14191.50211.442497.995966@localhost.localdomain> from "David Megginson" at Jun 22, 99 01:19:47 pm Message-ID: <199906222237.SAA12874@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson scripsit: > Here's an interesting problem -- in the world of DC comics, there > exists no time T in which Superman and Clark Kent both exist > simultaneously, and as a corollary, there exists no person P such that > P is both Superman and Clark Kent. On the other hand, there does > exist a person who is always *either* Clark Kent or Superman. I think I understand what you mean, but it is a problem of appearances, not identity. The appearances labeled "Clark Kent" and "Superman" belong to a single being; Clark Kent is identical to Superman, in the same sense that the evening star is the morning star, though they don't have the same appearances (one is in the west, the other in the east). > Does this constitute identity? If so, then I'd imagine that the same > IP addressed used serially for foo.com, bar.com, and foo.com again > also establishes the identity of those domains. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jes at kuantech.com Wed Jun 23 01:25:28 1999 From: jes at kuantech.com (Jeffrey E. Sussna) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: Why aren't document entities named? Message-ID: <000101bebd06$6ecacaf0$7e18a8c0@jsussna.quokka.com> The XML spec states "this specification does not specify how the document entity is to be located by an XML processor; unlike other entities, the document entity has no name and might well appear on a processor input stream without any identification at all." I believe that failure to specify a named identifier for document entities causes at least two problems: 1. There is no standard way to embed multiple WELL-FORMED documents within a single physical document entity. Actually it's easy to embed them, but difficult to extract them, since there's no standard way to detect "start of document". I can think of two obvious ways to do it: a) hardwire the parsing application to know about the root element; b) use a processing instruction, such as . Neither of these are satisfactory because they step out of the realm of a general standard. 2. Among other things, a document defines a scope for ID attributes. When a document maps 1-to-1 to a file, it is easy to construct an URL that identifies an element based on its ID. But if a file (or other storage unit) contains multiple documents, how do you address ID'd elements (or even the document itself). Again, the processing instruction could solve this problem by providing a document name, a la . I'd really like to know why this one entity was made anonymous. I have long felt that XML has certain weaknesses in the area of data structure definition that other languages solve through comprehensive, logical rather than physical, scoping facilities. I believe this is a prime case in point. Jeff Sussna xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From greynolds at datalogics.com Wed Jun 23 02:13:45 1999 From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> Okay, you guys got my philosophical homunculus in an uproar. He insists that I splutter thusly: You should quote, not only the names "Clark Kent" and "Superman", but all others as well. The question is perhaps more fruitfully stated as "how can we determine that two names have the same denotation". The classic example is: the names "Sir Walter Scott" and "the author of Waverly" have the same denotation, whether anybody knows it or not (although they may have different senses). But we can't directly talk about any denotation; we can only use names. So "Clark Kent" and "Superman", qua names, have the same denotation, whether "Lois" gets it or not. They also have clearly different meanings, as "Lois" would surely attest. "Appearance" is something completely different, unless it is construed as a purely symbolic notion. That is, "Superman"'s "appearance" and "CLark"'s "appearance" have the same denotation (but don't belong to it). On the other hand, "what 'Clark' looked like this morning" is also a name, which denotes his appearance, but not him. What fun! -gregg -----Original Message----- From: John Cowan [mailto:cowan@locke.ccil.org] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 5:37 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) David Megginson scripsit: > Here's an interesting problem -- in the world of DC comics, there > exists no time T in which Superman and Clark Kent both exist > simultaneously, and as a corollary, there exists no person P such that > P is both Superman and Clark Kent. On the other hand, there does > exist a person who is always *either* Clark Kent or Superman. I think I understand what you mean, but it is a problem of appearances, not identity. The appearances labeled "Clark Kent" and "Superman" belong to a single being; Clark Kent is identical to Superman, in the same sense that the evening star is the morning star, though they don't have the same appearances (one is in the west, the other in the east). > Does this constitute identity? If so, then I'd imagine that the same > IP addressed used serially for foo.com, bar.com, and foo.com again > also establishes the identity of those domains. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Wed Jun 23 06:53:51 1999 From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:24 2004 Subject: Namespace URI address resources Message-ID: <199906230455.AA00807@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Andrew Layman writes: >Recent mail has suggested that a namespace URI could be used to attempt a >retrieval of a schema, either using the URI directly or in some modified >form or via content negotiation. Other recent mail has objected, saying >that there may be a miriad of things one wants to associate in some way with >a namespace, for example a suggested (or mandatory?) style sheet to process >all elements and attributes defined in that namespace. ... >This argues that the first position is correct, namely that using a >namespace URI to retrieve a schema is reasonable and is different in kind >from retrieval of other possibly-related resources. I believe that the namespace URI should not be used for the retrieval of a schema. (I belive that this was the consensus of the XML working group which developed the namespace specification.) Moreover, the complexity of schema composition (i.e., include and import) in the working draft of XML Schema stems from the abuse of the namespace URI, as I see it. We have to introduce another URI for locating a schema. Then, we can also get rid of "include", since we can combine the same namespace URI and more than one schema-locating URIs. Cheers, Makoto Fuji Xerox Information Systems Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231 E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed Jun 23 07:00:46 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach Message-ID: <00fb01bebd35$5508a9a0$296167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >But XSL has a transformation language, so presumably it is transforming >from a more abstract kind of markup. Are you saying that is it always >wrong to make data available in formatting markup? That would be a >strange thing for the developer of FOP. Perhaps the developer of FOP *is* strange. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed Jun 23 09:28:40 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: A reply to Paul Prescod's reply to me: > > [XML definitions of schema are better than DTD ones because they > > allow you to use the same tools as the rest of the time.] > For programmers. But I asked about usability, not programmability. XML > instance syntax is certainly easier for programmers. You might have moved the goalposts here. Aren't programmers entitled to usability? Also, I assumed that the students you referred to were programmers. Anyway, the question still remains, why is it better to learn two syntaxes (XML and DTD) than just one? > > For example, when we have got a working approach to transclusion > > with XLinks, I could include your schema inside my schema. > DTDs and W3C XML schemas already do this without any special external > standard. A general transclusion mechanism is not good for > schemas anyhow -- you want to define custom import and export rules. As far as I was aware DTDs only allow you to include another DTD within them through entity reference. If that is true -and I keep seeing techniques I wasn't aware of in DTDs, so I by no means assume I am right - then the richness of XLinks and XPointers is going to be far more powerful in XML-based schemas. I think in particular the inclusion of a smaller part of a larger schema will in the long term prove an important technique. However, far more significant is that creating dynamic documents will increasingly require creating dynamic DTDs/scehmas, and that's far easier if you can put the schema on the node (see next point). > > With the current XML-Data approach, I can define the schema > > to be used on a per-node basis, so including a node also includes > > the information needed to validate it. > Sorry, I don't understand what you are saying here. What XML > data facility allows me to validate XLinks to transcluded "video nodes"? > Link validation is a completely separate issue, IMHO. I'm not with you here, Paul. I can't see how that relates to my point, so I'll give an example (and if it does relate to my point and I have not understood you, then many apologies). What I was getting at was the possibility of a schema that allows something like: Paul 1990621 ... Mark 1990622 ... and into which anything can be put into 'body'. Now, with normal DTD techniques you would have to modify the DTD every time you add a new format for news stories. Alternatively you could allow anything inside 'body', but then how do you validate what's inside 'body'? With the XML-based schema proposals currently knocking around I can put the validation on the inserted node. I know it's still controversial, but lets say we agree to use the namespaces technique from XML-Data. We can then have the following: Paul 1990621 loads of data Mark 1990622 loads of text The only reason that I mentioned transclusion in this context, was because I was suggesting that if inside the 'body' tag we simply pointed to a 'news piece' but didn't know what it actually was, it wouldn't matter. We could use an XLink to retrieve an object (XML document) whose 'type' we didn't know in advance, and still be able to validate it. (I know I'm asking for trouble here, and someone will come back on me and say "XML isn't for that", but this allows you to have a sort of OO-style polymorphism.) > > This means that you > > only actually extract the amount of schema you need for the document > > being exported, and it makes schema very easy to maintain > (you just have > > to maintain the database). > > You've abstracted away the hard parts of the problem and described how > easy it is to solve the easy ones. > > [snipped out Paul's point about "the primary purpose of the XML > interchange is to help [companies] to bridge that gap [of finding a > common schema]".] I wasn't talking about everyone using the same schema, I was more dealing with the problem of containment. Even if company A and B keep their different schemas, you could still have a containing schema which allows a document to be created that contains items from both schemas. You seem to be talking about XML being useful mainly because it allows us to 'convert' schema from company A to schema B, by having a common interface. > > [snipped my point about sending small parts of a larger schema if > > the data itself only uses small parts] > Piecewise schemas are an orthogonal issue to database generation of > schemas. In most cases it will be simplest to send the whole article > schema and have it be cached on the other side. Not sure I agree with you. Imagine sending the headline of an article to a mobile phone, or a stock price. Or how about if in your article you quote from my article? All you would need is an XLink to my paragraph, and the paragraph itself will come with the minimal information you need to validate it. > But anyhow, from a validation point of view, a schema sent > with the data is not any more useful than the schema you could > devise by analyzing the data! For a schema to be useful for > allowing interchange, it must be sent *in advance*. The schema isn't really sent with the data - only a reference to it. If I send you another document with a pointer to the same schema then hopefully it will come from your cache (if that doesn't happen at the moment, then I doubt that it works any better for DTDs). But further, I could in theory devise a system that allows me to edit a 'virtual' document made up of pointers to nodes on numerous servers (say, for example, editing the news items that I referred to above, that are contained within the total set of news stories). The schema on each node would tell me what I can and can't add to each node, which is obviously more information than can be deduced from the data itself. Best regards, Mark Birbeck Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net http://www.iedigital.net/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed Jun 23 09:56:11 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: Why aren't document entities named? Message-ID: <01BEBD5E.955454E0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Jeffrey E. Sussna wrote: > The XML spec states "this specification does not specify how the document > entity is to be located by an XML processor; unlike other entities, the > document entity has no name and might well appear on a processor input > stream without any identification at all." I believe that failure to specify > a named identifier for document entities causes at least two problems: > 1. There is no standard way to embed multiple WELL-FORMED documents within a > single physical document entity. Actually it's easy to embed them, but > difficult to extract them, since there's no standard way to detect "start of > document". I can think of two obvious ways to do it: a) hardwire the parsing > application to know about the root element; b) use a processing instruction, > such as . Neither of these are satisfactory because they step > out of the realm of a general standard. > 2. Among other things, a document defines a scope for ID attributes. When a > document maps 1-to-1 to a file, it is easy to construct an URL that > identifies an element based on its ID. But if a file (or other storage unit) > contains multiple documents, how do you address ID'd elements (or even the > document itself). Again, the processing instruction could solve this problem > by providing a document name, a la . What exactly do you mean by multiple documents in a single physical document entity? If you mean something like this: ... ... ... then the result is not well-formed (it does not have a single root) and is therefore not an XML document. Note that there is nothing to stop you from placing multiple XML documents in the same file. However, the addressing and extraction mechanisms are outside the scope of XML. You could include these inside a single root, in which case you could address each fragment with XPointer. However, all fragments would share the same ID space, which sounds like it's a problem for you. Unfortunately, there is no way around this using XML. You either have one document with a single ID space (which is XML) or one structure with multiple documents and multiple ID spaces (which is not XML). It is not surprising that XML constructs such as an ID attributes won't work in the latter case (nor will entities, DTDs, or a lot of other things). For better or worse, XML does not define where or how documents are stored. Such a universal addressing scheme is clearly beyond the capabilities of XML, which is simply a document format. Put another way, RTF, Lotus 1-2-3, Latex, and the guy down the hall whose instruments spit out comma-separated files all define document formats, but none defines document addressing schemes. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Wed Jun 23 10:27:34 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: "Rick Jelliffe"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:49:42 +1000" References: <006801bebcc7$1be3f2b0$15f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: "Rick Jelliffe" writes: > There is nothing more semantic about than . Yes there is, if you look at it in the proper context. For one thing, a search engine that could tell me that it found my search string within a is probably more helpful in than one that found it within a . The DTD can also tell me something about the semantics of , especially if it is annotated with explanatory comments, or through a schema (although it needs to be simpler for a machine to look this up), but just by looking at the contexts where it can appear can be informative - tags are likely to be legal just about anywhere. Further, element content that happen to have the same presentation fontwise don't necessarily mean the same thing, (in theory) nobody would put their phone number in a element to get the right formatting. And, semantics are provided through style sheets or transformation/ formatting processes, just because one kind of use - e.g. formatting for display - treats a and s the same, doesn't mean that other processing does. Finally, meaning can be provided to tags through shared tag sets ("DTD inheritance"), ideally, XML documents on the web should use standard formats for common elements (names, urls, dates...) as much as possible. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 23 11:08:05 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Message-ID: Gregg Reynolds wrote, > Okay, you guys got my philosophical homunculus in an > uproar. He insists that I splutter thusly: > > You should quote, not only the names "Clark Kent" and > "Superman", but all others as well. The question is > perhaps more fruitfully stated as "how can we > determine that two names have the same denotation". > The classic example is: the names "Sir Walter Scott" > and "the author of Waverly" have the same denotation, > whether anybody knows it or not (although they may > have different senses). But we can't directly talk > about any denotation; we can only use names. I disagree. Clark Kent and Superman _might_ be special cases, because they're fictional characters, but even there it's dubious. As far as Scott and the author of Waverly are concerned, tho', you're dead wrong. We can meaningfully ask, Is Scott the author of Waverly. and we can also meaningfully ask, Does "Scott" denote (in English) the same person denoted (in English) by "the author of Waverly" These are _different_ questions. The first is about Scott (and would also be about the author of Waverly if that were a different person). The second is primarily about the use of names in English. It's a classic use/mention, de dicto/de re thing. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 23 11:07:04 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > Does this constitute identity? If so, then I'd > imagine that the same IP addressed used serially for > foo.com, bar.com, and foo.com again also establishes > the identity of those domains. I think the only answer is "it might do". There's a whole cluster of cases which work in similar ways. How about, for example, a site which temporarily splits in two, then later merges back into a single unified site: do we get the original (pre-splitting) site back? This particular kind of puzzle isn't unique to _web_ resource identity. Many social institutions are able to survive splitting and merging. Maybe there's a clue here: perhaps a web site is best thought of as a sort of social entity. That makes the prospect of defining web site identity criteria look a bit bleak however. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 23 11:22:04 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: Lars Marius Garshol wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote, > > Lois Lane belives that Superman isn't the same person > > as Clark Kent. Clark Kent presumably believes > > otherwise. Which one of those two beliefs is true? > > Within that fictional universe, two main approaches seem > useful: Ahh ... OK, it looks like I shouldn't have used an example with fictional characters. I'm not all that interested in truth in fiction: just rerun my argument with a non-fictional example. -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Wed Jun 23 11:38:58 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <14191.50211.442497.995966@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000901bebd5c$6cabec80$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> > Here's an interesting problem -- in the world of DC comics, there > exists no time T in which Superman and Clark Kent both exist > simultaneously, and as a corollary, there exists no person P such that > P is both Superman and Clark Kent. And presumably if the change from Superman to Clark Kent is not instantaneous, then there exists a time T in which neither Superman nor Clark Kent exist, but some intermediate entity (Super Clark?, Man Kent?) does. >On the other hand, there does > exist a person who is always *either* Clark Kent or Superman. Following on from above then that person isn't *always* one of the two alter egos, but at some point is also neither. While I love philosophical debates like this, I've got the (niggly) feeling that its not addressing the issue square-on. The existence of multiple frames of reference for identification isn't necessarily bad - I might want to talk solely about Superheroes and not mild-mannered reporters, or refugees from Krypton. However as long as (ultimately) all frames of reference discuss the same object then things are OK (consistency). An object can have multiple identifiers, depending on the context in which it is being discussed. Attempting to generalise across contexts causes problems such as when does Clark stop being Clark, and when does he become Superman? You might argue that its when he changes his costume, but he (Kal-el) would say that the distinction doesn't exist. Probably a less than meaningful (and coherent) contribution to the discussion... L. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 23 14:26:46 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Lars Marius Garshol | | Within that fictional universe, two main approaches seem useful: | [...] * Miles Sabin | | Ahh ... OK, it looks like I shouldn't have used an example with | fictional characters. I'm not all that interested in truth in | fiction: just rerun my argument with a non-fictional example. Or, even better, you can just go back and re-read my post, noting that since I say '_Within_ that fictional universe' I effectively stop regarding it as fiction. :-) Given your last two posts on this subject (in the 'I want to parse like Superman' thread) it seems you really should read it again. You use the term 'denote' in discussing names and identity, but seem to ignore the fact that this makes some fundamental assumptions about the universe and the web, and it's not immediately obvious that these are valid. For example, you like to think that the term 'Jupiter' denotes a planet, and that this planet is a solid well-defined thing, right? Well, it's not obvious that this really is so. You're referring to a ball of gas floating in a near-vacuum, but you'd be hard pressed to find a precise border where you can say that "Here the near-vacuum ends, and Jupiter begins", since the transition from the one to the other is so gradual. And if you look at the meaning of 'Jupiter' that denotes the Roman god things get even worse, since this is an entity that as far as we know doesn't exist and whose exact alleged attributes have varied through the centuries as people's beliefs have changed. This may sound like philosophical nitpicking, but I'm not so sure that things are that much clearer on the web. For example, do these two URLs denote the same resource? They're not byte-by-byte equal, but there certainly seems to be a connection between them. What criteria should a web robot apply to decide that they are the same resource? And when the contents you get from following a URL vary with the cookies you've set, the user-agent you use, your accept headers and your domain, what is then the resource behind all that? And what about banner ads, are they part of the resource? And how do you tell that they really are banner ads, anyway? In all these cases ('Jupiter' and the web examples) we, humans, impose a categorization on the universe we observe into distinct objects with identity and it's not really clear that this grouping into objects has any independent existence outside our heads. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 23 15:07:27 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> Message-ID: * Gregg Reynolds | | "Appearance" is something completely different, unless it is | construed as a purely symbolic notion. That is, "Superman"'s | "appearance" and "CLark"'s "appearance" have the same denotation | (but don't belong to it). My view, which I've argued in two posts now is that this is turning things upside down. Appearances are the sources of all this, both names and the things you claim that they denote. As David Hume would be quick to point out, you can't actually point to the name 'Superman' or what you mean by it without pointing to an appearance. The thing itself is always only inferred from appearances. So all this talk about names and denoting things is all presupposing something non-obvious. And the truly interesting thing about this, to me anyway, is that user-agents clearly deal with appearances and names and nothing else. So if you want identity you will have to define it first, and then teach the definition to your user-agents, but you shouldn't make the mistake of just presuming that there is one true concept of identity which your definition describes (or fails to describe). And, yeah, I seem to be headed for a major collision with Plato. Too bad. :) | On the other hand, "what 'Clark' looked like this morning" is also a | name, which denotes his appearance, but not him. That's an interesting example, and I think it shows this very clearly. What I'm arguing is that 'Clark' denotes something you've abstracted from appearances. Most readers of Superman would also claim that Lois (and the rest of the world) has made a mistake in this abstraction by concluding that 'Clark Kent' and 'Superman' are different entities. | What fun! More's the trouble, since I really don't have the time to participate in this discussion. :( --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From greynolds at datalogics.com Wed Jun 23 15:24:46 1999 From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFE@martinique> The answer to your first question below is yes. Alas, the answer to the second is no. -gregg -----Original Message----- From: Miles Sabin [mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 4:06 AM To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' Subject: RE: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) Gregg Reynolds wrote, > Okay, you guys got my philosophical homunculus in an > uproar. He insists that I splutter thusly: > > You should quote, not only the names "Clark Kent" and > "Superman", but all others as well. The question is > perhaps more fruitfully stated as "how can we > determine that two names have the same denotation". > The classic example is: the names "Sir Walter Scott" > and "the author of Waverly" have the same denotation, > whether anybody knows it or not (although they may > have different senses). But we can't directly talk > about any denotation; we can only use names. I disagree. Clark Kent and Superman _might_ be special cases, because they're fictional characters, but even there it's dubious. As far as Scott and the author of Waverly are concerned, tho', you're dead wrong. We can meaningfully ask, Is Scott the author of Waverly. and we can also meaningfully ask, Does "Scott" denote (in English) the same person denoted (in English) by "the author of Waverly" These are _different_ questions. The first is about Scott (and would also be about the author of Waverly if that were a different person). The second is primarily about the use of names in English. It's a classic use/mention, de dicto/de re thing. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 23 15:28:36 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: Lars Marius Garshol wrote, > Or, even better, you can just go back and re-read my > post, noting that since I say '_Within_ that > fictional universe' I effectively stop regarding it > as fiction. :-) :-) OK, no problems. But I think it'd help the non- philosophers amongst us not to have to deal with an extraneous modal operator ... > You use the term 'denote' in discussing names and > identity, but seem to ignore the fact that this makes > some fundamental assumptions about the universe and > the web, and it's not immediately obvious that these > are valid. Granted, but my usage and assumptions have quite a respectable pedigree ... Russell, Wittgenstein mark 1, lots of contemporary analytic philosophers. Sure, it's not immediately obvious that it's valid ... what do you expect: this is philosophy after all. This _ought_ to ring alarm bells. If we're arguing about things which are live issues amongst present day academic philosophers we can be fairly sure that we're not likely to come to a satisfactory resolution any time soon ... it might be sensible to try and duck the issue altogether. > For example, you like to think that the term > 'Jupiter' denotes a planet, and that this planet is a > solid well-defined thing, right? Well, it's not > obvious that this really is so. You're referring to a > ball of gas floating in a near-vacuum, but you'd be > hard pressed to find a precise border where you can > say that "Here the near-vacuum ends, and Jupiter > begins", since the transition from the one to the > other is so gradual. Well, I'm with John on this one. The problem you're hinting at isn't anything to do with _identity_ per se, it's to do with what counts as (exactly one) object (of a particular kind). For some things it's quite easy, for others it's very hard. The kinds of things which are easy are the ones which are relatively stable (in some sense or another). The kinds of things which are hard are the ones which can split, fuse, pop into and out of existence, and which can persist across a rapid turnover of constituents. Social institutions are one example of this sort of thing. Web- sites, even individual pages, look suspiciously like being another. > but I'm not so sure that things are that much clearer > on the web. I think we agree :-) > For example, do these two URLs denote the same > resource? > [snip: two URLs] > They're not byte-by-byte equal, but there certainly > seems to be a connection between them. What criteria > should a web robot apply to decide that they are the > same resource? I've no idea. And I'm fairly sure that there's no general answer to this sort of question. But this isn't an issue about *identity*, it's an issue about *identification*. > In all these cases ('Jupiter' and the web examples) > we, humans, impose a categorization on the universe > we observe into distinct objects with identity and > it's not really clear that this grouping into objects > has any independent existence outside our heads. Ahh ... well that's controversial ;-) I think that you might have a point when it comes to artifacts, particularly semantically laden artifacts like web-stites or pages: if enough people _believe_ that a fluctuating bunch of pages constitute a single site over time, then that's enough to make it so. I don't think the same applies to Jupiter tho'. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From qtxpjoh at aom.ericsson.se Wed Jun 23 15:41:06 1999 From: qtxpjoh at aom.ericsson.se (Peter Johansson ETX/A/PO) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? Message-ID: <3770E479.523C83C@aom.ericsson.se> What if we did not use the end-tag and just used to end our tags would it not be a nice saving of bandwitdh? a document would look like this in that case Listitem Listitem Listitem Should this be ok? Where should the problems be? There is no problem with usual brackets in programming languages so why a problem here knowing which end-tag that belongs to which start-tag? //pejo xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 23 15:41:03 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:25 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906222005.QAA09130@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3770E473.5871AE48@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > First, we're not even talking about 'vanilla XML' here - we're talking > primarily about XSL FOs. Technically, it's XML, but it's scrubbed down to > be without semantic content in the markup. Or rather, the semantics in the markup relate only to presentation. > If companies are concerned about information reuse, they should look into > other mechanisms for limiting redistribution, including the simple step of > putting a group of copyright lawyers on retainer. There are other ways to > solve these problems that don't involve keeping the Web as dumb as possible. Even for large organizations which can afford a fleet of lawyers, it's a lot more cost-effective to avoid creating the problem in the first place. If the first lawyer you talk to doesn't point that out, you'd need to replace him/her ... - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 23 15:58:56 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> Message-ID: <3770E89C.43A3D24E@pacbell.net> Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > > So all this talk about names and denoting things is all presupposing > something non-obvious. And the truly interesting thing about this, to > me anyway, is that user-agents clearly deal with appearances and names > and nothing else. I'd claim that the users of those user-agents deal with appearances and names and nothing else, as well. For all that we think that we may deal with physical reality, it's only a model of "reality" which is conditioned by our perceptions of its appearance. > So if you want identity you will have to define it first, and then > teach the definition to your user-agents, but you shouldn't make the > mistake of just presuming that there is one true concept of identity > which your definition describes (or fails to describe). Right! > And, yeah, I seem to be headed for a major collision with Plato. Too > bad. :) What if Plato were one of us? Just a stranger on the web ... ;-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Wed Jun 23 15:58:01 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Oracle XML/XSL Technology "Blast" - Six New Components Message-ID: <199906231358.GAA23582@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> As Oracle's XML Technology Evangelist, of course I'm excited to tell the world about the "Technology Blast" of six new XML technology components made available today on our Oracle Technet Website. - New XSLT engine inside a faster "v2" Java XML Parser - XML SQL Utility for easier database "XML-out" and "XML-in" - XSQL Servlet for easily serving up SQL/XML/XSLT-powered "datapages" - XML Parsers in three new languages (C, C++, and PL/SQL) When it rains it pours :-) Take a look! http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml XML Parser for Java v2 (w/ XSLT) -------------------------------- - Completely re-architected, optimized performance - Integrated XSLT Engine (Supports April 20 1999 WD) - Runs inside the Oracle8i database or out - Node.transformNode() to Transform a DOM Node by XSLStylesheet - Instantiate & Cache an XSLStylesheet Once and Reuse It - Output of Transformations Can be DocumentFragments XML SQL Utility for Java ------------------------ - Convert results of SQL statements or ResultSets to XML - Supports DOM or XML-text output - Handles all Oracle8i Object/Relational Datatypes - Works with Views and structured Object Views - Runs inside the Oracle8i database or out - Java & PL/SQL interfaces - Save XML Documents of a canonical format to tables or object views XSQL Servlet ------------ - Java Servlet written utilizing the XML SQL Utility and XML Parser v2's XSLT Engine to easily build dynamic "datapages" in XML out of one or more SQL queries embedded in any XML document. - Optionally transform resuting "XSQL" page by an XSLT transform in the server or client - Tons of supplied demos, including a complete sample "Do You XML?" Website built out of a *single* XSQL page with a single XSLT transform. XML Parser for PL/SQL --------------------- - DOM/SAX/Namespaces-Compliant XML Parser for PL/SQL (Oracle8i Only) XML Parser for C ---------------- - DOM/SAX/Namespaces-Compliant XML Parser for C XML Parser for C++ ------------------ - DOM/SAX/Namespaces-Compliant XML Parser for C++ _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team http://www.oracle.com/xml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed Jun 23 16:25:06 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF29@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > What if we did not use the end-tag and just used > to end our tags would it not be a nice saving of bandwitdh? Much discussed in the past, thought unfortunately the search engine for the list archive doesn't seem to be working at the moment. The usual answer is that the error checking (and diagnostics) you get from a redundant tag is of more value than the bandwidth saving you get by omitting it. If you want to save bandwidth, use compression. (Having said that, I have just found myself designing an XML document with one-character tags for download to the browser, and it does make a difference. So I have some sympathy with the argument. But standards are standards, and by definition they can't suit everybody). Some of the argument against abbreviated end tags is psychological: SGML allowed too many such options, and it caused parsers to become bloated and incompatible. So the SGML oldies have an inbuilt distaste for them. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 23 16:26:18 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach In-Reply-To: <3770E473.5871AE48@pacbell.net> References: <199906222005.QAA09130@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906231427.KAA11499@hesketh.net> At 06:43 AM 6/23/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >> If companies are concerned about information reuse, they should look into >> other mechanisms for limiting redistribution, including the simple step of >> putting a group of copyright lawyers on retainer. There are other ways to >> solve these problems that don't involve keeping the Web as dumb as possible. > >Even for large organizations which can afford a fleet of lawyers, >it's a lot more cost-effective to avoid creating the problem in >the first place. If the first lawyer you talk to doesn't point >that out, you'd need to replace him/her ... Now that we've reached cost of lawyers to companies vs. costs to the Web as a whole, maybe we'd better take this off XML-dev. The point is simply that there are other effective mechanisms designed to enforce licenses for information and such and that such costs don't need to be inflicted on the information itself. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 23 16:27:39 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Lars Marius Garshol | | You use the term 'denote' in discussing names and identity, but seem | to ignore the fact that this makes some fundamental assumptions | about the universe and the web, and it's not immediately obvious | that these are valid. * Miles Sabin | | Granted, but my usage and assumptions have quite a respectable | pedigree ... Russell, Wittgenstein mark 1, lots of contemporary | analytic philosophers. Sure, but that doesn't change anything. I suppose one could claim that these operate on a higher level than the one I've been arguing on, and that something is missing before we can move onto this level when discussing the web. | This _ought_ to ring alarm bells. If we're arguing about things | which are live issues amongst present day academic philosophers we | can be fairly sure that we're not likely to come to a satisfactory | resolution any time soon ... it might be sensible to try and duck | the issue altogether. Well, I've been sticking to Kant/Hume and the Buddhists, none of which have been alive for the past few centuries. You're the one who's mucking around with present-day philosophy. :) * Lars Marius Garshol | | For example, you like to think that the term 'Jupiter' denotes a | planet, and that this planet is a solid well-defined thing, right? | Well, it's not obvious that this really is so. You're referring to a | ball of gas floating in a near-vacuum, but you'd be hard pressed to | find a precise border where you can say that "Here the near-vacuum | ends, and Jupiter begins", since the transition from the one to the | other is so gradual. * Miles Sabin | | Well, I'm with John on this one. The problem you're hinting at isn't | anything to do with _identity_ per se, it's to do with what counts | as (exactly one) object (of a particular kind). You're right that I'm arguing about what counts as exactly one object, but you're wrong that this has nothing to do with identity. In fact, resolving that issue is in fact the first step in assigning identity, because it gives you something to assign identity to. Until the universe has been chopped into pieces there is nothing to assign identity to, and it seems to me pretty obvious that if we chop it differently then we're going to have serious trouble agreeing on the identities of the pieces or even what it is that constitutes identity. And you might well view Lois' distinction between Superman and Clark Kent as a failure to chop the universe correctly, rather than as a failure to correctly assign identities to the people she meets. And, anyway, this whole discussion has been resolving exactly what we mean by identity. To me that is a discussion of how we should chop the universe. | The kinds of things which are easy are the ones which are relatively | stable (in some sense or another). Not just. Superman is stable, but different choppings of the universe can leave him and Clark Kent as both one or two objects (and probably more, if you feel sufficiently perverse). | The kinds of things which are hard are the ones which can split, | fuse, pop into and out of existence, and which can persist across a | rapid turnover of constituents. Social institutions are one example | of this sort of thing. Web- sites, even individual pages, look | suspiciously like being another. These are difficult, I agree, but they're by no means the only cases. * Lars Marius Garshol | | For example, do these two URLs denote the same resource? | [snip: two URLs] | They're not byte-by-byte equal, but there certainly seems to be a | connection between them. What criteria should a web robot apply to | decide that they are the same resource? * Miles Sabin | | I've no idea. And I'm fairly sure that there's no general answer to | this sort of question. Do you agree that this means a failure to provide a good chopping mechanism for the web? What I've been arguing is not that answering this is hopeless, but rather that we have a choice as to how we want to do it. (The original post describes two ways, and there must be more.) | But this isn't an issue about *identity*, it's an issue about | *identification*. You lost me here. What is the distinction between those two terms to you? * Lars Marius Garshol | | In all these cases ('Jupiter' and the web examples) we, humans, | impose a categorization on the universe we observe into distinct | objects with identity and it's not really clear that this grouping | into objects has any independent existence outside our heads. * Miles Sabin | | Ahh ... well that's controversial ;-) Sure, but I'm not trying to settle that issue, I'm trying to argue that we can work our way around it. It doesn't matter if the universe really is discrete or not, what matters is how we view it. | I think that you might have a point when it comes to artifacts, | particularly semantically laden artifacts like web-stites or pages: | if enough people _believe_ that a fluctuating bunch of pages | constitute a single site over time, then that's enough to make it | so. | | I don't think the same applies to Jupiter tho'. Then let's put Jupiter to rest and argue about web pages. :) --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Wed Jun 23 16:34:12 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF93@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Lars Marius Garshol [mailto:larsga@ifi.uio.no] writes: > For example, you like to think that the term 'Jupiter' denotes a > planet, and that this planet is a solid well-defined thing, right? > Well, it's not obvious that this really is so. You're referring to a > ball of gas floating in a near-vacuum, but you'd be hard pressed to > find a precise border where you can say that "Here the near-vacuum > ends, and Jupiter begins", since the transition from the one to the > other is so gradual. While I have been amused [and bemused] by this thread (and the Superman one) since the beginning, I think we also need to keep our eyes on the scope of our discussion. :-) While it is true that the transition from vacuum to Jupiter is very gradual, making it hard to determine exactly where Jupiter starts and vacuum ends, it is probably irrelevant to every member of this list, because none of us will have occasion to visit Jupiter. While it is interesting to discuss the philosophical implications of "does Clark Kent equal Superman", it may not be strictly relevant to building web applications, or the web itself. As Miles Sabin pointed out in another post, "If we're arguing about things which are live issues amongst present day academic philosophers we can be fairly sure that we're not likely to come to a satisfactory resolution any time soon ... it might be sensible to try and duck the issue altogether." I'm not suggesting that we abandon the discussion of trying to determine identity, but that we try to limit the scope to trying to determine identity of the "things" we as XML/web developers deal with, such as web pages, and XML documents, and Schemas, and DTDs, and the myriad other "resources" we need to access. (I think this was Miles' point as well. Apologies if I've misrepresented him, though.) I think the Superman/Clark Kent metaphor was a good one, but it got taken too far and now we're just discussing philosophy, not the web. (Maybe I shouldn't use the word "just" in that sentence...) In another post on this thread, Lars Marius Garshol asked if the following two URLs denote the same resource: My question is, does it matter? Is there a case where we need an application to know or think that these two URLs are the same? OTOH, are THESE two URLs the same: This, in my [small] mind, is a much more difficult question to answer, but again, is there a case where we need an application to know or think that these refer to the same thing? I'm not arguing a point, here, I'm honestly asking. David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Wed Jun 23 16:42:19 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Versioning DTD's Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19E4@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Is anyone working on (or perhaps already has) a standard method of versioning DTD's, and marking the used version in the XML file, aside from public identifiers (which aren't really usable for mere mortals). Thanks. Matt. -- http://come.to/fastnet and coming soon: http://sergeant.org Perl, XML, ASP, Database, mod_perl, High Performance Solutions perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-: ,hacker Perl another Just)' It's Matt. See http://sergeant.org/notmatthew.txt xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Wed Jun 23 16:56:41 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19E5@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Kay Michael [SMTP:Michael.Kay@icl.com] > > (Having said that, I have just found myself designing an XML document with > one-character tags for download to the browser, and it does make a > difference. So I have some sympathy with the argument. But standards are > standards, and by definition they can't suit everybody). > Both "main" browsers support gzip encoding - which with a decent web server you can do on the fly, and often at less cost than you might think compared to the saved transmission times. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gregg at informalsoftware.com Wed Jun 23 17:02:31 1999 From: gregg at informalsoftware.com (GW) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19691231160000.00767760@pplus.shell20.ba.best.com> Makes it impossible for the parser to verify well-formedness. At 03:43 PM 6/23/99 +0200, Peter Johansson ETX/A/PO wrote: >What if we did not use the end-tag and just used to end our >tags would it not be a nice saving of bandwitdh? a document would look >like this in that case > > Listitem > Listitem > Listitem > >Should this be ok? Where should the problems be? There is no problem >with usual brackets in programming languages so why a problem here >knowing which end-tag that belongs to which start-tag? > >//pejo > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 23 17:08:26 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF93@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF93@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <14192.63404.791882.464480@localhost.localdomain> Hunter, David writes: > While it is interesting to discuss the philosophical implications > of "does Clark Kent equal Superman", it may not be > strictly relevant to building web applications, or the web > itself. Actually, it was intended to be strictly relevant, although the Hulk, or Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde would have been better examples. The question was how we determine serial identity -- if person P is Dr. Jekyl, Mr. Hyde, then Dr. Jekyl again, are Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde identical? If so, then if IP address 111.222.333.444 is foo.com, then bar.com, then foo.com again, are foo.com and bar.com identical? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mike at DataChannel.com Wed Jun 23 17:20:22 1999 From: mike at DataChannel.com (Mike Dierken) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Corba and XML Message-ID: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B6023B6F1AB@ZEUS> Also check out "WebBroker: Distributed Object Communication on the Web" a W3C Note from May 11, 1998. http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-webbroker/ Mike D DataChannel -----Original Message----- From: Lars Marius Garshol [mailto:larsga@ifi.uio.no] Sent: Wednesday, June 16, 1999 1:26 PM To: xml-dev Subject: Re: Corba and XML * F. A. A. | | could you please help me out with some useful pointers to some kind | of marriage between corba and XML? maybe some sort of xml2idl, maybe | marshalling using xml? The XML-RPC people already do marshalling with XML, although not in a CORBA context. (This makes sense, since if you have CORBA IIOP is much more attractive for various reasons, one of which is speed.) Also, the OMG has recently issued a specification they call XMI, which provides a mapping from an OMG information model to an XML DTD. You can find the specification on the OMG site. (My copy is still in the to-be-read heap, unfortunately.) Personally, I'm currently doing an MSc thesis on what CORBA and SGML/XML may have to contribute to one another in the context of building publishing systems. I hope to complete that thesis in the very near future. If you're interested you can come to Metastructures '99 to hear me talk about it. :) | ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01BEB322.E7F362E0 | Content-Type: image/gif | Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 | Content-ID: <000b01beb34c$d019f100$0100007f@preferred-user> | | R0lGODlh/wNdAPf/AP///4SEhIyMjJSUlJycnKWlpa2trbW1tb29vcbGxs7OztbW1t7e3ufn5+/v | 7/f3987GxtbOzt7W1r21ta2lpbWtrca9vZyUlKWcnMa9td7WztbOxr21rc7Gvefezt7Wxt7Wve/v | 5/f37///987OxtbWzt7e1ufn3r29ta2tpbW1rcbGvZSUjJyclKWlnIyMhN7ezufn1u/v3tbWxr29 What's this? --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 23 17:30:09 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF93@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF93@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: * David Hunter | | While it is true that the transition from vacuum to Jupiter is very | gradual, making it hard to determine exactly where Jupiter starts | and vacuum ends, it is probably irrelevant to every member of this | list, because none of us will have occasion to visit Jupiter. It's relevant to the question of identity, though, but let's not start a meta-discussion. | In another post on this thread, Lars Marius Garshol asked if the | following two URLs denote the same resource: | | | | | My question is, does it matter? Is there a case where we need an | application to know or think that these two URLs are the same? Definitely! When people do a search for 'Free XML software' on Google I want them to get a result more or less like:

  • Free XML software (alternative) and not to see these as two completely unrelated sites. | OTOH, are THESE two URLs the same: | | | | | This, in my [small] mind, is a much more difficult question to | answer, but again, is there a case where we need an application to | know or think that these refer to the same thing? Sure! Lots! Some examples: - a server log analyzer that provides a referral report should merge references from these two (see ) - a search engine should know whether they are the same, just as with my example above - software that builds an offline copy of a web site should know whether to make separate copies for these two URLs and so on... And, BTW, it's by no means obvious that those two URLs really refer to the same thing. I'm sure you'll agree that these two URLs refer to different resources, for example: --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed Jun 23 17:36:06 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:26 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: Lars Marius Garshol wrote, > [snipped out of order] > Miles Sabin wrote, > > But this isn't an issue about *identity*, it's an > > issue about *identification*. > > You lost me here. What is the distinction between > those two terms to you? I'll deal with this first, because I think it'll tidy up some of the misunderstandings that've been flying around in this thread. When John Cowan (apologies in advance if I'm misrepresenting him) and I have been talking about 'identity' we've been talking about a *relation*: the = of logic and mathematics, or the == of various programming languages. This is very different from the way the term is often used in informal talk, where it's often used to pick out an *object* (in a very broad sense of object). A fairly venerable term for this second sort of usage is 'essence'. Essences haven't been in very good odour recently (Quine did a fairly good job of killing them off back in the 60's). Still, like most things philosophical, it's swings and roundabouts, and they're coming back into fashion. OK, so I take identity to be a relation. What sort of relation? Pretty much a primitive and undefinable one: everything stands in the identity relation to itself, and only to itself, and, err ... that's it. Identification is a different kettle of fish altogether. It's about how you come to know that the thing picked out by one description is identical to the thing picked out by another. Unlike identity, which just does it's thing, identification is problematic, because it requires an identifying agent of some sort, and most identifying agents are fallible. > You're right that I'm arguing about what counts as > exactly one object, but you're wrong that this has > nothing to do with identity. In fact, resolving that > issue is in fact the first step in assigning identity, > because it gives you something to assign identity to. OK, I think that if you replace 'identity' with 'essence' or 'gestalt' then we're probably in synch. Trouble is, I think your chances of getting anywhere with defining the essence of a web-site are likely to be very slim indeed. > > The kinds of things which are hard are the ones > > which can split, fuse, pop into and out of > > existence, and which can persist across a rapid > > turnover of constituents. Social institutions are > > one example of this sort of thing. Web-sites, even > > individual pages, look suspiciously like being > > another. > > These are difficult, I agree, but they're by no means > the only cases. Err ... but surely these are exactly the kind of cases that we're talking about? > [snip 2 URLs] > > I've no idea. And I'm fairly sure that there's no > > general answer to this sort of question. > > Do you agree that this means a failure to provide a > good chopping mechanism for the web? I agree that we haven't got one. I doubt that we ever will. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Wed Jun 23 17:36:44 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF94@cc20exch2.mobility.com> David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] writes: > Actually, it was intended to be strictly relevant, although the Hulk, > or Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde would have been better examples. The > question was how we determine serial identity -- if person P is > Dr. Jekyl, Mr. Hyde, then Dr. Jekyl again, are Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde > identical? If so, then if IP address 111.222.333.444 is > foo.com, then > bar.com, then foo.com again, are foo.com and bar.com identical? But my questions remain: Is there ever a time when we need/want an application to know or think that foo.com is the same as bar.com? My understanding is that the DNS name is what we're after; the IP address is just how we get there. If we want our application to use foo.com then we will; if bar.com happens to be "the same" as foo.com, however you define "the same", does that matter to us at all? We can still go on happily using foo.com in our application, and bar.com can be the same, and then change, and we won't care. But I have another question, to add to the previous one: in the case of namespaces (is that where this thread started?), in the example you cite, is the second foo.com the same as the first foo.com? Wait, don't answer that, I want to go over the implications in my head for a bit first... I have a feeling it's going to be application-specific, and also have some legal ramifications. (I define foo.com. I go out of business, but someone else buys the foo.com name. e.g. ad infinitum) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 23 17:48:44 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <3770E89C.43A3D24E@pacbell.net> References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> <3770E89C.43A3D24E@pacbell.net> Message-ID: * David Brownell | | I'd claim that the users of those user-agents deal with appearances | and names and nothing else, as well. Definitely, that's why I've been talking about Jupiter and Superman etc | For all that we think that we may deal with physical reality, it's | only a model of "reality" which is conditioned by our perceptions of | its appearance. Yes! We agree so much it's almost embarrassing. :) | What if Plato were one of us? Just a stranger on the web ... ;-) I'd feel a lot easier about disagreeing with him if he were. :) --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed Jun 23 18:26:18 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: XSL Debate, Leventhal responds to Stephen Deach References: <199906222005.QAA09130@hesketh.net> <199906231427.KAA11499@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37710AFF.3B5359CF@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 06:43 AM 6/23/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >> If companies are concerned about information reuse, they should look into > >> other mechanisms for limiting redistribution, including the simple step of > >> putting a group of copyright lawyers on retainer. There are other ways to > >> solve these problems that don't involve keeping the Web as dumb as > >> possible. > > > >Even for large organizations which can afford a fleet of lawyers, > >it's a lot more cost-effective to avoid creating the problem in > >the first place. If the first lawyer you talk to doesn't point > >that out, you'd need to replace him/her ... > > Now that we've reached cost of lawyers to companies vs. costs to the Web as > a whole, maybe we'd better take this off XML-dev. The discussion probably reached that point a long time ago, but not for that reason! Note that costs to individual companies are easily quantified; costs to "the web as a whole" are not, and are all but purely speculative. Few businesses gamble so wildly that they'll try to optimize for something that intangible. > The point is simply that > there are other effective mechanisms designed to enforce licenses for > information and such and that such costs don't need to be inflicted on the > information itself. No, the point is that it's all a set of nonlinear tradeoffs ... and removing the option to use XSL FOs (and similar technologies) where they are appropriate will shoot up costs elsewhere in the system rather disproportionately. Naturally an information consumer will want the information provider to pay all such costs; but that's not a practical business model. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Wed Jun 23 18:26:22 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Identity Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF95@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Lars Marius Garshol [mailto:larsga@ifi.uio.no] writes: > | In another post on this thread, Lars Marius Garshol asked if the > | following two URLs denote the same resource: > | > | > | > | > | My question is, does it matter? Is there a case where we need an > | application to know or think that these two URLs are the same? > > Definitely! When people do a search for 'Free XML software' on Google > I want them to get a result more or less like: > >
  • href="http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/linker/XMLtools.html"> > Free XML software ( href="http://birk105.../">alternative) > > and not to see these as two completely unrelated sites. But in this case the search engine isn't treating them as "the same thing"; it is treating them as two distinct "things", which are in some way related. ("ThingB" is a mirror of "ThingA".) Having two "things" which are related is a much different kettle of fish then having two "things" and trying to figure out if in fact they are the same "thing". (If they were, in fact, "the same", then there would be no need to have a link to the second "thing".) > | OTOH, are THESE two URLs the same: > | > | > | > | > | This, in my [small] mind, is a much more difficult question to > | answer, but again, is there a case where we need an application to > | know or think that these refer to the same thing? > > Sure! Lots! Some examples: > > - a server log analyzer that provides a referral report should merge > references from these two But to the web server itself, i.e. a.server.com, there really would never be such a "thing" as "page.asp?param1=5¶m2=6"; there would only be a "page.asp", and anything else is just a parameter to the one "thing". (This is strictly when talking about ASP; if we talk about CGI I would be in over my head, not having dealt with it, but I have a feeling that it would be similar: to the web server, there would only be one [executable?] which would be our "thing", and anything else would be parameters.) OTOH, if we move our point of reference to an external computer somewhere, which I guess is where I've been talking from, if it is "merging" references from the two, then it is treating both as different "things". (If they're both the same "thing", then there's nothing to merge.) > - a search engine should know whether they are the same, just as with > my example above See the point I'm about to make below... > - software that builds an offline copy of a web site should know > whether to make separate copies for these two URLs > > and so on... > > And, BTW, it's by no means obvious that those two URLs really refer to > the same thing. I'm sure you'll agree that these two URLs refer to > different resources, for example: > > http://www.80s.com/cgi-bin/valley.cgi?url=http%3A%2F%2F208.206 .40.209%2Fmyfamily%2Froad.html> > --Lars M. Right, but this is kind of my point. If two URLs (or URIs) are character-for-character identical, then they're the same thing. If they're different in any way, then perhaps they should be treated as different resources, or perhaps "different but related" resources. i.e. is the same as and is different from and is different but related to (I readily admit that this may be a gross over-simplification.) (And I heartily wish that I could remember how this discussion got started, so that my examples could be more relevant. Did it start with namespaces? Or Schemas, and their use of namespaces? Or something completely unrelated? Even the very first "Identity" email was in reference to ANOTHER thread, so I can't even trace it back...) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Wed Jun 23 18:30:31 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Identy, philosophy, one-ness, fictional characters Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990623092720.0116e280@pop.intergate.bc.ca> The lengthy discussions on philosophy and semantics have revealed beyond doubt that this list comprises a world-class congregation of experts... in syntax. I don't want to be nasty, but I also don't want to wade through all this fluff, and I do want to read xml-dev. Diatribes are much more easy to swallow when accomanied by specific proposals for syntax, APIs, data models, and the like. Arguments about the nature of identity are best placed in environments where alcoholic beverages are available to grease the wheels, and xml-dev doesn't qualify. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From David at Byrden.com Wed Jun 23 19:24:24 1999 From: David at Byrden.com (David ) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: > From: Paul Prescod > What I hear you saying is that the situation at the OMG is identical to > that in Java, Python, the ODMG and most other object-based environments. > There is a very basic notion of equivalence that you can depend upon when > you are enumerating objects at a low level. Object types can invent higher > level concepts of identity and equivalence if they want to. To clarify for anyone who is puzzled: The most basic equivalence = these two references indicate the same physical bytes in memory. Equaller than that you cannot get. Higer level equivalence = generally means that these two objects could be swapped without any side effects that are visible through the external interface they present to the world. David Byrden xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From David at Byrden.com Wed Jun 23 19:24:19 1999 From: David at Byrden.com (David ) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML Message-ID: > From: Steve Kearon > When opening a file, we tolerate quite a lot (eg someone could add > attributes/elements that we'll ignore). Various issues can arise when you modify a class, then try to deserialize objects stored by the earlier version. So the decision to ignore unknown attributes can become important later on. Have a look at Java Serialisation and see how they address it. David Byrden http://byrden.com/rubxml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Wed Jun 23 21:45:39 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Speaking at SD99 East In-Reply-To: <199906231358.GAA23582@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Message-ID: I've sent this to a few people privately, but I'm sure I've missed some notable speakers, so I'd like to throw out a general invitation for speakers at SD99 East, a conference geared towards developers and programmers that will take place November 8-12, 1999 in Washington DC. The Software Development Conference has served the professional development industry for over 11 years as the only independent industry forum where influential development professionals gather to learn. I'm looking for people who would be interested in giving classes on various advanced aspects of XML; e.g. the DOM, XLinks, architectural forms, MDSAX, etc. Our class sessions are 1-1/2 hours long, and there will be approximately 120 classes in this conference. The catalog goes to print this month, so if you're interested I need to hear from you ASAP. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Wed Jun 23 21:50:23 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: q: ibm xml parser (xml4j2) Message-ID: has anyone been able to successfully install/test/implement the latest ibm xml parser (xml4j2) on their wintel platform???! i've spent more time dealing with cygnus, kshell, environment settings, and other crap just trying to get their *.java files to compile on my workstation.. i'm fed up. any advice, or even a zipped compiled copy of their java source would be truly appreciated. thank you. my engineering degree doesn't amount to dirt, -mark ..Mark Cheek.. "I can doubt everything, except one thing, and that is the very fact that I doubt." --Descartes xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From KBayuk at itc-us.com Wed Jun 23 22:17:04 1999 From: KBayuk at itc-us.com (Bayuk, Kevin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: XSL Template Engine -- Cocoon Message-ID: Does anybody have experience with or...perhaps, could describe a methodology for injecting dynamic XML content into an XSL template engine like Cocoon? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Wed Jun 23 23:07:23 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: XSL Template Engine -- Cocoon Message-ID: <199906232108.OAA07278@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> Try the Oracle XSQL Servlet released today. If the dynamic stuff is coming from SQL queries over a database, this may be what you're looking for. If you want to plug it's functionality into Cocoon, then leverage the class library that the XSQL Servlet uses internally called the Oracle XML SQL Utility for Java and plug that into the DCP subsystem in Cocoon as a DCP "callout" (or whatever the proper name for the the thing that DCP let's you plug into your page) :-) Both are at: http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: "Bayuk, Kevin" Subject: XSL Template Engine -- Cocoon Date: 23 Jun 1999 13:17:45 Size: 2041 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990623/bd849bc7/attachment.eml From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Wed Jun 23 23:58:02 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) References: <000901bebd5c$6cabec80$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37715991.624F25E5@freenet.co.uk> Leigh Dodds wrote: > And presumably if the change from Superman to Clark Kent is not > instantaneous, then there exists a time T in which neither > Superman nor Clark Kent exist, but some intermediate entity (Super Clark?, > Man Kent?) does. Isn't it time someone brought up Schroedingers cat? This both does and does not contribute to the discussion. Philip Nye xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu Jun 24 00:39:08 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Identy, philosophy, one-ness, fictional characters Message-ID: <01fb01bebdc8$32351100$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Tim Bray wrote: >Arguments about the nature of identity are best >placed in environments where alcoholic beverages are available to grease >the wheels, and xml-dev doesn't qualify. -T. > The real problem is that XSL doesn't have the FO's to properly represent various types of alcoholic beverages with realistic fidelity. If it did, there would be an entirely different group arguing "XSL-FOs considered harmful". Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Jun 24 01:30:08 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF29@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <37716E58.5E5EA151@allette.com.au> Kay Michael wrote: > Some of the argument against abbreviated end tags is psychological: SGML > allowed too many such options, and it caused parsers to become bloated and > incompatible. So the SGML oldies have an inbuilt distaste for them. Not this one - I still use SGML parsers specifically because they do make it easier to mark up data by inserting the minimum number of tags. Anyone involved with loosly structured legacy data would be better off using SGML than XML for the initial conversion (in my opinion) as you can often save putting in 70-80 % of the tags. It may be an expensive feature from the perspective of a parser writer, but it's very handy if you're a user. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 04:04:18 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <14192.63404.791882.464480@localhost.localdomain> from "David Megginson" at Jun 23, 99 11:09:41 am Message-ID: <199906240229.WAA20498@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson scripsit: > Actually, it was intended to be strictly relevant, although the Hulk, > or Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde would have been better examples. The > question was how we determine serial identity -- if person P is > Dr. Jekyl, Mr. Hyde, then Dr. Jekyl again, are Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde > identical? Yes, because they are both person P. > If so, then if IP address 111.222.333.444 is foo.com, then > bar.com, then foo.com again, are foo.com and bar.com identical? No, because more than one machine can have a given IP address (side issue: that address is impossible) at different times. An IP address is not an essential property of a given computer. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 04:35:32 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:27 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679BFC@martinique> from "Reynolds, Gregg" at Jun 22, 99 07:15:09 pm Message-ID: <199906240300.XAA22018@locke.ccil.org> Reynolds, Gregg scripsit: > You should quote, not only the names "Clark Kent" and "Superman", > but all others as well. I quote something when I mention it, and don't quote it when I use it to refer to its referent (denotation). Thus: "Clark Kent" has nine letters. Clark Kent has X-ray vision. > The question is perhaps more fruitfully stated as > "how can we determine that two names have the same denotation". The classic > example is: the names "Sir Walter Scott" and "the author of Waverly" have > the same denotation, whether anybody knows it or not (although they may have > different senses). But we can't directly talk about any denotation; we can > only use names. So "Clark Kent" and "Superman", qua names, have the same > denotation, whether "Lois" gets it or not. They also have clearly different > meanings, as "Lois" would surely attest. I agree with this, but I have a definition of "meaning" that isn't everybody's. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 04:38:33 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: I want to parse like Superman (was Re: Identity) In-Reply-To: from "Miles Sabin" at Jun 23, 99 10:06:09 am Message-ID: <199906240303.XAA22203@locke.ccil.org> Miles Sabin scripsit: > As far as Scott and the author of Waverly are concerned, > tho', you're dead wrong. We can meaningfully ask, > > Is Scott the author of Waverly? > > and we can also meaningfully ask, > > Does "Scott" denote (in English) the same > person denoted (in English) by "the author of > Waverly"? > > These are _different_ questions. Perhaps they are. But I believe that in every case that does not involve non-denoting names (like "Pegasus" or "Woldemar John Cowan"), the corresponding questions have the same answers. > The first is about > Scott (and would also be about the author of Waverly if > that were a different person). The second is primarily > about the use of names in English. It's a classic > use/mention, de dicto/de re thing. The de dicto/de re distinction is useful when it *distinguishes* something. In these straight factual questions, I believe that no distinction is being made. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 04:43:00 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: from "Lars Marius Garshol" at Jun 23, 99 04:29:00 pm Message-ID: <199906240307.XAA22543@locke.ccil.org> Lars Marius Garshol scripsit: > Until the universe has been chopped into pieces there is nothing to > assign identity to, Agreed. > and it seems to me pretty obvious that if we chop > it differently then we're going to have serious trouble agreeing on > the identities of the pieces Yes. > or even what it is that constitutes > identity. No. Identity is still the same relation as ever: it's the property of being an object that has changed. We have a criterion for identifying sheep, and not for identifying clouds, so the question "Is this cloud the same as that one?" may have an answer that is not known, but that does not make the identity relationship mysterious. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu Jun 24 04:54:11 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? Message-ID: <001f01bebde5$1650d830$08f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Marcus Carr >Kay Michael wrote: > >> Some of the argument against abbreviated end tags is psychological: SGML >> allowed too many such options, and it caused parsers to become bloated and >> incompatible. So the SGML oldies have an inbuilt distaste for them. > >Not this one - I still use SGML parsers specifically because they do make it easier to mark up >data by inserting the minimum number of tags. I think there are two aspects: 1) SGML is at heart a compiler compiler; to complain that it accomodates variant syntaxes is like complaining that lex allows different delimiter tokens: that is the point of it. 2) SGML'86 allows different implementation to implement only parts of the optional feature set, but did not provide a way to name or manage these (i.e., invoking the SGML declaration using a formal public identifier). This in turn made it too difficult to create any brand identity: the document could not self-describe its brand of syntax. XML is largely a specific Web-SGML declaration with a good brand-identity mechanism. Rick Jelliffe (N.b. despite the Allette email address, I don't work there. I just keeping an email account there.) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Thu Jun 24 06:17:28 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: saving bandwitdh? References: <001f01bebde5$1650d830$08f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <3771B1D4.2F968055@allette.com.au> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > 2) SGML'86 allows different implementation to implement only parts > of the optional feature set, but did not provide a way to name or manage > these (i.e., invoking the SGML declaration using a formal public > identifier). > This in turn made it too difficult to create any brand identity: the > document > could not self-describe its brand of syntax. XML is largely a specific > Web-SGML declaration with a good brand-identity mechanism. Good point. I think that for large SGML datasets it was taken for granted that you might have to do something to the data before it was really usable for your purposes. With XML's tendency toward smaller and more agile datasets though, this is an unacceptable cost. I like the idea of XML being (among many other things) the ultimate normalisation of SGML data. > (N.b. despite the Allette email address, I don't work there. I just > keeping an > email account there.) Yes, and I think you might have left something in the fridge last time you were in the country... :-) -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 24 06:53:39 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3771BA5B.73B03568@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ I just noticed another easily-fixed problem. The "dom-node" feature is used with "parsers" which walk DOM documents and emit a sequence of SAX parser event callbacks. Problem: it's a read-only property, so that it's not possible to specify the input document in a portable way. It's as if SAX 1.0 didn't have a way to feed an input source (or document URI) into a parser. Simple fix: make that attribute read/write. It shouldn't be writable during a parse, though -- just like the input stream to the parser is fixed until the parse completes, so should an input DOM document. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stevek at fineline-software.co.uk Thu Jun 24 10:20:11 1999 From: stevek at fineline-software.co.uk (Steve Kearon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: storing application state as XML Message-ID: <01bebe19$7e51c320$LocalHost@stevekea> I wrote: >> When opening a file, we tolerate quite a lot (eg someone could add >> attributes/elements that we'll ignore). David Byrden wrote: >Various issues can arise when you modify >a class, then try to deserialize objects stored by the >earlier version. So the decision to ignore unknown attributes >can become important later on. Have a look at Java Serialisation >and see how they address it. I agree. One must take care. Currently, such an "ignore unknown attributes" is there to facilitate read-only data, and (where practicable) version-independence in the software. With XML, we get to choose how far we can force a compatible format, and when we need to add version info. This was never an option with MFC, and we saw no way of acheiving even limited forwards-compatibility of file format. Steve Kearon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stevek at fineline-software.co.uk Thu Jun 24 10:31:52 1999 From: stevek at fineline-software.co.uk (Steve Kearon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Storing Application State as XML Message-ID: <01bebe1b$fcc64800$LocalHost@stevekea> I wrote: >>We went through the same process as you: having used MFC serlialization, XML >>sounded like it had various advantages. on 1999-06-21, roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: >Isn't this what the W3C XMI spec is at least partially about? Or am I mixing >acronyms here? Sorry if someone else already made this point, the all new mondo >weekly archive posting is too big to go look around too much. I'm not too familiar with XMI (hence the pause before replying, in the vain hope that someone else would step in, and allow me to say "yeah, I knew that"). I *think* XMI is for transfering designs (metadata) between modelling systems - eg a common format for UML designs. Steve xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Thu Jun 24 10:41:04 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Storing application state as XML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 13:52 +0200 17/6/99, Ketil Z Malde wrote: >We have a rather complex application which stores its state using the >standard MFC serialize stuff (well, actually a somewhat hacked >version, but that's beside the point). Now, this limits our freedom >in (or at least severely complicates) redesigning internal class >structure while maintaining backwards file compatibility, and we've >been pondering an XML format instead. I've just finished a major enhancement to our cross-platform report-writer so it can write a document out to XML and retrieve it. The single desktop document contains one or many reports, each containing - schema - style - layout - data I enhanced our expatpp wrapper for expat so it supports invoking nested parsers. This is a really easy way to parse data within a very strict domain, much like your serialisation demands. It means you can keep the parser for a given object self-contained to avoid any given parser becoming complex. It also means the string comparisons as the events arrive are much more optimal. You can grab expatpp from http://www.highway1.com.au/adsoftware/expatpp.html including sample code showing how the report writer parsing works. More information on the report-writer and links to our (now) free OOFILE database API including the XML output and data parsing at http://www.oofile.com.au Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 24 11:09:15 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Two more SAX2 (0601) Parsers References: <37617BC0.999A02B7@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <3771F644.922642B3@pacbell.net> I've just provided an update here. Only minor fixes were needed to those parsers, but now there's more: - A "DOM Parser" emitting a SAX2 (alpha) event stream given a DOM Document as input; - An "Echo Handler" which does a very accurate job of turning such events back into well formed XML, with full DOCTYPE declaration, comments, CDATA sections, unexpanded entity references, and so on; - Some simple example code; - Some small tweaks to the license. (Thanks John!) And would you believe the README file has been replaced with a file called "index.xml", valid and with CSS? Works in Mozilla M6; I've not tried M7 yet. It's translated to HTML for users of Lynx, IE5, and other browsers. (IE5 doesn't handle lists, links, and some other important features, but it's worth checking out what it does handle.) - Dave David Brownell wrote: > > Have a look at > > http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/ > > You can download adapters that put SAX2 interfaces onto Sun's "Project X" > parsers (current release: TR2) and the Swing HTML parser. > > This release can be used with only the addition of the TR2 release; it > includes classes and javadoc, as well as the full sources (not like they're > that huge, though). > > SAX2 "Feature" list: > true, false validation > true external-{general,parameter}-entities > true use-locator > false namespaces, normalize-text > > The XML parser supports both the "DeclHandler" and "LexicalHandler" from > the SAX2 draft. The only known caveats there: you won't see paramter > entities exposed, or expansions of general entities from attribute values. > > The license is a modified QPL (Open Source). > > - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Thu Jun 24 12:46:49 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: "Hunter, David"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:33:32 -0400" References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF94@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: "Hunter, David" writes: > But my questions remain: Is there ever a time when we need/want an > application to know or think that foo.com is the same as bar.com? If you're talking about DNS, I would think it could be interesting if you are doing reverse lookups. If you're using it as part of an URL, and bar.com is much closer to me than foo.com, but foo.com gets updated more often, I might want to know whether the URLs refer to the same object. Add a new HTTP request or something that gives you an md5 of the object. Embed this in an attribute in links if you want to make sure you refer to the correct object. And there is of course no reason for a search engine not to incorporate checksums already. [...] > I have a feeling it's going to be application-specific, The DNS entries for foo.com and bar.com could easily refer to the same IP address, but have different MX records - or if you prefer, the document at http://foo.com could be different from that at http://bar.com -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Thu Jun 24 12:56:28 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: "Hunter, David"'s message of "Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:22:38 -0400" References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF95@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: "Hunter, David" writes: >>> In another post on this thread, Lars Marius Garshol asked if the >>> following two URLs denote the same resource: [search engine example] > But in this case the search engine isn't treating them as "the same > thing"; I read this argument from the viewpoint that we were discussing the objects referenced by URLs, and not the URLs themselves. Were I mistaken? The URLs are *obviously* not identical if they are not the same, letter by letter (possibly except leading and trailing whitespace). > But to the web server itself, i.e. a.server.com, there really would never be > such a "thing" as "page.asp?param1=5¶m2=6"; there would only be a > "page.asp", and anything else is just a parameter to the one > "thing". You cannot know that from the outside, and it's just a pesky implementation detail. But you raise an interesting point, because a cgi with the same parameters isn't guaranteed to return the same result (e.g. page hit counters). Are they still the same object? Basically, I think this calls for a requirement that all CGIs and ASPs and what not be side-effect free. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From reschke at medicaldataservice.de Thu Jun 24 13:06:38 1999 From: reschke at medicaldataservice.de (Julian Reschke) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003b01bebe31$eafebab0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Ketil Z Malde > Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:50 PM > To: Hunter, David > Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' > Subject: Re: Identity > ... > > You cannot know that from the outside, and it's just a pesky > implementation detail. But you raise an interesting point, because > a cgi with the same parameters isn't guaranteed to return the same > result (e.g. page hit counters). Are they still the same object? > > Basically, I think this calls for a requirement that all CGIs and ASPs > and what not be side-effect free. Actually, this goes behind the scope of side effects... The same URL encoded query to a search engine might return different documents each and every time... jr xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From james at xmltree.com Thu Jun 24 13:11:21 1999 From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Discovering document types - best practice? Message-ID: <00a901bebe32$8b1fc570$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Dear All, This may seem like a simple problem, but I can't find any references to how best to solve it. I need to process a series of xml documents, which can be in a number of different formats. I don't know in advance the type of the documents, only their URLs. What is the best way of analysing what type the document is (and how to process it)? Is there a "best practice" for this? For example, should I 1) Try and read the document type declaration? If so, what function/property should I be using? I'm using MS XMLDOM (from IE 5). 2) Try and look for a link to a XML schema? 3) Just start walking the tree looking for particular nodes in a particular order? Thanks if you can help. James Carlyle james@xmltree.com www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu Jun 24 13:43:46 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:28 2004 Subject: Discovering document types - best practice? In-Reply-To: <00a901bebe32$8b1fc570$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Message-ID: <199906241145.HAA26299@hesketh.net> At 12:13 PM 6/24/99 +0100, james@xmlTree.com wrote: >This may seem like a simple problem, but I can't find any references to how best to solve >it. It seems like it should be a simple problem, but there are lots of complexities along the way. XML has no reliable 'document type identification' mechanism because of the approach it takes to validation. (Internal subsets can change the rules on a per-document basis; namespaces and validation don't get along very well at present, MIME types aren't yet commonly used for XML, and application/xml doesn't tell you anything about what vocabulary is used, just that it's XML.) >I need to process a series of xml documents, which can be in a number of different >formats. I don't know in advance the type of the documents, only their URLs. What is the >best way of analysing what type the document is (and how to process it)? Is there a "best >practice" for this? I wish there were... as time goes on, I do expect more XML documents to get MIME types identifying them specifically, but this hasn't happened yet. For some of the complexities involved in this process, see the discussion archives at http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-mime/. When MIME types get straightened out, you could use HEAD requests to the server to get a MIME type back and base your processing on that rather than downloading entire documents in order to determine if they fit your requirements. >For example, should I > >1) Try and read the document type declaration? If so, what function/property should I be >using? I'm using MS XMLDOM (from IE 5). I haven't gotten this close to Microsoft's XML processors in a while, having been burned a number of times, so I don't know the actual API. Even if you have access to the document type declaration, it may not be easy to process that information. Simple declarations that just identify a root element and external subset of the DTD generally provide you with a reliable identifier of document type. More complex declarations that include an internal subset may trip you up by assembling a modular DTD on the fly or overriding and extending declarations from the external DTD. This can get complex. In simple cases, it's not bad, but in cases with an internal subset, it can be difficult to work with. >2) Try and look for a link to a XML schema? If schemas were ready for prime-time... at least I haven't seen internal subset proposals for schemas. >3) Just start walking the tree looking for particular nodes in a particular order? This is the most accurate, but also the most costly. Especially if you're expecting to find a lot of documents you don't plan to actually use in your list of URLs, you can churn through processor cycles and discard the results. I took a stab at describing document classes a few weeks ago, creating a fairly simple spec called XPDL, for XML Processing Description Language. Details are at http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xpdl. That might solve a lot of your problems, but only if people actually used it in their files. I'd love to hear about other approaches people are taking to this problem... Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srnm at yahoo.com Thu Jun 24 18:11:21 1999 From: srnm at yahoo.com (Steven Marcus) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: schemas now Message-ID: <19990624161435.1425.rocketmail@web107.yahoomail.com> I need to do data typing in a java-based application using XML -- now! I have looked at DataChannel's XML-Data Reduced implementation in their "dcxjp" java parser. It appears, in general, to meet my needs - except that a commercial licence appears to require some negotiation. Some questions: 1) How far away are we from W3's "XML Schema" going to "Recommendation" status? I see that it was published on May 6 1999. My guess is that we are at least a year away and perhaps 9 months away from some prototype implementations. 2) dcxjp has an extended DOM implementation to provide access to the "typed" data as defined by the schema from a DOM Node. Also, it appears that there is a way to obtain information about the schema associated with the XML document. How far away are we from standard parser/DOM APIs to work with W3's "XML Schema"? Schema support appears to be out of scope for SAX2. Will schema support be included in DOM Level 2? 3) Does anyone know of any XML-Data Reduced to DTD (or vice versa) conversion tools? 4) It appears that translation from XML-Data Reduced to the eventual XML Schema Recommendation stands a good chance of being accomplished programmatically. True? 5) Can anyone provide alternative suggestions? * The inheritance features of XML Schema are not critical in my application. * XML syntax (instead of existing DTD syntax) for schema definition is preferred -- because some schemas will be generated programmatically. * Data typing is important. As far as I can tell, XML Data Reduced/dcxjp is the only implementation available today? 6) Are schemas controversial? Or put another way, is it likely that schemas will get embroiled in a political debate about being relevant to the W3's charter, harmful to the web, etc..? If so, then chances of a recommendation and API are reduced and for all practical purposes I might as well use a vendor-specific implementation... (A slightly cheeky question I admit... but I ask because I need to implement immediately and am weighing the risks associated with vendor lock-in.) thanks much! Steven Marcus _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu Jun 24 18:41:52 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: schemas now Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990624094346.01237d60@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 09:14 AM 6/24/99 -0700, Steven Marcus wrote: >I need to do data typing in a java-based application using XML >-- now! So, like, write some code. >How far away are we from W3's "XML Schema" going to >"Recommendation" status? I see that it was published on May 6 >1999. My guess is that we are at least a year away and perhaps 9 >months away from some prototype implementations. These things are totally unpredictable both in theory and practice. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a flash of inspiration and shipped in September. I also wouldn't be surprised if they got stuck in some semantic tarpit and slipped to summer 2000. Sorry to be unhelpful. >It appears that translation from XML-Data Reduced to the >eventual XML Schema Recommendation stands a good chance of being >accomplished programmatically. True? Yes, but there's no guarantee at all (really) that XML schemas will be a clean superset of XDR. >Can anyone provide alternative suggestions? Yes. You're going to be writing some business-level validation logic anyhow. Check your own data types. Then when there is a solid, stable, nonproprietary schema facility with data typing, throw that part of your own validation logic away. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 19:26:42 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <3771BA5B.73B03568@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37726ABA.4DD45608@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > Problem: it's a read-only property, so that it's not possible to specify > the input document in a portable way. It's as if SAX 1.0 didn't have a > way to feed an input source (or document URI) into a parser. A better approach, methinks, is to extend DocumentSource to allow dom.Document as one of the kinds of input source. My DOMParser does just this, and throws an exception if you pass any source that is *not* a Document. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Thu Jun 24 19:40:06 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: schemas now Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF804@RED-MSG-08> Many of your questions I cannot answer, particularly schedule questions, but would be better addressed to Dan Connolly of the W3C, who probably knows what can and cannot be said. 3. I do know of a tool that someone at Microsoft wrote to convert DTDs to XMLDR subset. It requires the Windows MSXML parser, and, of course, only translates the features that XMLDR can express. I'll see if I can get it posted somewhere. 4. Regarding translation from XMLDR to the eventual W3C schema notation, I think there is a very good chance that the translation would be entirely mechanical and easily handled by a simple Perl or Python script. 5. MSXML and dcxjp are the only shipping implementations I am aware of of XMLDR. Additionally, XMLDR is the only shipping schema notation that I am aware of that uses instance syntax and supports datatypes. (Additionally, it supports namespaces.) 6. Are schemas controversial? Let's see what others say here. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 19:39:13 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Identity References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF95@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <37726DBE.D2DF8457@locke.ccil.org> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > Basically, I think this calls for a requirement that all CGIs and ASPs > and what not be side-effect free. That *is* supposed to be a rule: that you can GET the same URL as many times as you want with no changes. Otherwise caching would not work. I know that "hit counters" break this rule, which is why they are meaningless in the presence of caching. Changes are, according to the architecture, supposed to be done only by other methods such as POST and PUT. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bkline at KnowledgeSource-inc.com Thu Jun 24 19:38:49 1999 From: bkline at KnowledgeSource-inc.com (Bryan Kline) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: XML big procurement systems Message-ID: <4FAAEA12E557D211989400AA001340A00E63FC@smtp.knowledgesource-inc.com> Hi, I am starting to do some R&D on XML, I would like to know some views on the following: Where is XML today in regards to the big procurement systems? Can XML applications currently transfer catalogs etc. to most major procurement systems or is the protocol, predominately EDI forcing developers to write additional code to interact with these systems if they were to use XML? If so, how soon in the future will XML be a viable solution for a small to mid size business? Thanks, Bryan Kline xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu Jun 24 20:02:16 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: John Cowan's message of Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:41:18 -0400 Message-ID: <199906241804.TAA25290@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > That *is* supposed to be a rule: that you can GET the same URL > as many times as you want with no changes. Otherwise caching > would not work. Surely the whole mechanism of HTTP "if-modified-since" and "expires" headers exists because this is not true? -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 20:28:21 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Identity References: <199906241804.TAA25290@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: <37727926.3B8D8DCC@locke.ccil.org> Richard Tobin wrote: > > That *is* supposed to be a rule: that you can GET the same URL > > as many times as you want with no changes. Otherwise caching > > would not work. > > Surely the whole mechanism of HTTP "if-modified-since" and "expires" > headers exists because this is not true? I overstated my case. What I meant was that the *very act* of doing a GET is not supposed to change anything. Obviously the *result* of doing a GET may change over time. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Thu Jun 24 20:30:50 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Identity In-Reply-To: <199906241804.TAA25290@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Jun 1999, Richard Tobin wrote: > > That *is* supposed to be a rule: that you can GET the same URL > > as many times as you want with no changes. Otherwise caching > > would not work. > > Surely the whole mechanism of HTTP "if-modified-since" and "expires" > headers exists because this is not true? "With no changes" means "with no changes occurring as a *result* of GETting the URL. i.e. given a sequence of N>=1 GETs G1,...,Gn to the same URL with Gn taking place at time Tf, the result of Gn depends only on Tf and *not* on N. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu Jun 24 21:59:25 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Identity References: <199906241804.TAA25290@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <37727926.3B8D8DCC@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37728E80.D15AB959@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > Richard Tobin wrote: > > > > That *is* supposed to be a rule: that you can GET the same URL > > > as many times as you want with no changes. Otherwise caching > > > would not work. > > > > Surely the whole mechanism of HTTP "if-modified-since" and "expires" > > headers exists because this is not true? > > I overstated my case. What I meant was that the *very act* of > doing a GET is not supposed to change anything. Obviously the > *result* of doing a GET may change over time. Correction appreciated ... :-) To nuance it just a bit more: GET is supposed to repeatable pretty much any way a web user agent wants, so it must meet two basic characteristics. (a) be "idempotent" ... the cache control and conditional get facilities don't fight that (very much) if you consider examples like getting balances or quotes; (b) not involve an action involving accountability ... so it's extremely unhealthy to use a "GET" to purchase something on-line, or sign a document, etc. See the HTTP/1.1 specification for the details. (I don't think it mentions the security risks of having sensitive data living in query params, though -- it can be logged and passed to other web sites through "Referer" header fields.) With respect to identity -- yes, what something "is" appears to be a function of what you're trying to do with it. If all you've got is a hammer, everything's a nail (as they say). A POST to a URL, or a PUT, can give different results than a GET to it. It'd be bad to settle on a notion of identity that assumes only GET is used on the web! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu Jun 24 22:06:10 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <3771BA5B.73B03568@pacbell.net> <37726ABA.4DD45608@locke.ccil.org> <37728BD1.BFC2CF77@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37729031.FEA882D6@locke.ccil.org> David Brownell wrote: > DocumentSource?? Not a SAX class ... :-) > > If you mean InputSource, the issue I'd raise there is that > it'd imply that all SAX parsers should be able to accept DOM > as input. InputSource, of course. And I was talking about an extension (subclass) of InputSource specific to DOM parsing, not changing (extending) InputSource. Sorry for the confusion. Another option is to change InputSource to support a single additional pair of methods: get/setSourceObject(Object o). The meaning of this would be specific to the particular parser and the run-time type of o. > Why do you not like making that property (dom-node) be read/write, Essentially because the value of getProperty("dom-node") is a Node, whereas the argument to setProperty("dom-node", doc) needs to be a Document. This is an ugly asymmetry, even though the compiler is unable to check the type. Adding a new property ("dom-document") would be better, but not better than overloading InputSource, which is already meant for the job of specifying the source. > beyond that not being what you implemented already? (heh heh) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From frystyk at w3.org Thu Jun 24 22:19:43 1999 From: frystyk at w3.org (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990624162136.03403350@localhost> ps: I just realized that my responses to the resource identity thread was rejected because I wasn't subscribed to the list - for the sake of completeness, here it is again. pps: I would like to point people at the W3C Web Characterization Activity [1] mailing list [2] which is the intended place to discuss the Web Terms Working Draft [3]. You must be subscribed to the list in order to post - follow the directions at [2] or subscribe directly by following [4]. Thanks, Henrik [1] http://www.w3.org/WCA/ [2] http://www.w3.org/WCA/#Forum [3] http://www.w3.org/1999/05/WCA-terms/ [4] mailto:www-wca-request@w3.org?subject=subscribe *** At 10:01 28/05/1999 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >It is encouraging because it is long needed. Great to hear! >It is disturbing because I >believe it identifies a key problem with the Web (or with my understanding >of the Web). > >This document refers to the URI specification in its definition of >"resource": "...anything that has identity." This is troubling because >there is no definition of identity. In the HyTime and object oriented >worlds, I believe that the defining characteristic of things with identity >is that you can take two references and determine if they refer to the >same object. > >I do not see how to do this on the Web. Consider the following URLs: > >http://www.mitre.org/index.html >http://www.mitre.org/ >http://www.mitre.org > >Do they refer to the same resource? Let's try the answer both ways: The only way these resources can at all be considered to be related is if there is an explicit relationship that describes their exact relationship (in this case what exactly "same" means). In most servers, this is done in a global config file and is known by the publisher but not by anybody else. Metadata can be used to describe these relationships in a way that is accessible to parties (not necessarily the whole world) outside the local server serving the resources. >Summary: > >I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't >already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document >should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL >was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure >out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content >or actually refer to the SAME THING. I think it is important to realize that the canonical (or generic) URI doesn't have to be linked to the syntax of the URI - it is a question of how the resource it identifies relates to the rest of the world. In your example above, it could be either of the names that is considered the "generic URI": http://www.mitre.org/index.html http://www.mitre.org/ http://www.mitre.org Note, btw, that the last two examples are equivalent at a syntactic level. This is of course also has to do with trust - which would you most likely trust to provide the authoritative W3C host page URI among these URIs (where 'none' is a valid answer): http://www.w3.org/ http://w3c-mirror.some.host/ http://another.host/w3c/ Without a mechanism for identifying who the authoritative publisher is, it is hard to talk about a generic URI. This is the reason why we in the WCA terminology draft [1] define a publisher as "The principal responsible for the publication of a given resource and for the mapping between the resource and any of its resource manifestations". So, in summary, I would argue that the concept of a generic URI is useful but that it isn't related to syntax but rather relationships and trust. Henrik [1] http://www.w3.org/1999/05/WCA-terms/ -- Henrik Frystyk Nielsen, World Wide Web Consortium http://www.w3.org/People/Frystyk xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From frystyk at w3.org Thu Jun 24 22:21:39 1999 From: frystyk at w3.org (Henrik Frystyk Nielsen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990624162333.034a3b10@localhost> At 10:59 28/05/1999 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >At 10:01 AM 5/28/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >>I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't >>already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document >>should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL >>was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure >>out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content >>or actually refer to the SAME THING. > >It's pretty crystal-clear that at the moment, given the existence of >content negotiation, the web has no built-in concept of a canonical URI. >While the idea has been attractive ever since Ted Nelson postulated (30 >years ago) that in a networked environment there ought really only to be >one instance of each object, all the attempts that I know of to address >the issue of canonically naming things have shuffled down the path to >dusty death, either quickly or slowly. The reason for this is IMHO that these attempts have either 1) been based on syntactic equivalence of the name, or b) a fixed definition of what 'the same' means. Content negotiation is really just an attempt of defining what 'same' means: This document is the same but in two different languages, or in two different encodings, etc. I think there are several major stumbling blocks why conneg hasn't been used any more than it is: HTTP/1.0 caching didn't support it, it requires hard-coded configuration of popular servers like Apache, and there is no way to edit relationships remotely. Metadata can change this by making the relationships explicit and allows for these relationships to be shipped around over the Net. You could then define a canonical (or generic) URI as having the identity relationship 'this' with itself: http://www.w3.org/Overview.html.fr --french--> http://www.w3.org http://www.w3.org/Overview.html.da --danish--> http://www.w3.org http://www.w3.org --this--> http://www.w3.org Without these relationship being explicit, there is no way that we can compare URIs except at a purely syntactic level. >This doesn't worry me. As Dan Connolly will tell you until your ears >bleed, if you are an organization that cares about persistence, uniqueness, >and managing your web space properly, there's nothing about plain ol' URLs >that gets in the way. As always this is a truth with modifications - from the point of view of not moving your files around, it is true. From the point of changing/evolving the access mechanism, it is not. Just think about the interactions between https: and http: - there is no graceful way to changing access mechanisms in the Web. This is not a question of being careful with your names, this is a bug in the infrastructure. What we do need is a mechanism for discovering and negotiating different ways to access resources dynamically. Note, however, that this is different from the discussion of generic URIs. > Empirically, it is the case that a lot of >organizations who should know better are shoddy about the design of >their web spaces in a way that, as Paul points out, is going to make >it hard for them to take advantage of RDF. Maybe if we're lucky, since >URLs are the only credible thing to hang Web metadata on, and since the >need for ubiquitous Web metadata is becoming mind-numbingly obvious, people >will be motivated to start doing the right thing. But we in the computing >profession, as with all other professions, are all idiots at least some >of the time... I am doubtful that any canonical-addressing scheme can >combat the human propensity to screw up sometimes. -Tim Unless metadata can be made easy enough to handle so that people don't care about the name of the resource but only about the relationships then I would agree. In fact, I do believe it can and that it is possible not to have to think of a name when you want to create a new resource but instead can think about how you want this resource to be related to the rest of the world. Henrik -- Henrik Frystyk Nielsen, World Wide Web Consortium http://www.w3.org/People/Frystyk xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Thu Jun 24 23:58:10 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:29 2004 Subject: News.Com on XML over HTTP Message-ID: <4.2.0.56.19990624145259.026d5ef0@mail.userland.com> http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,38355,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d "It's like inventing a language without verbs. There has to be a standard way to deliver structured data. And if not CORBA, EJB, or even COM, then what?" xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ericm at scriptics.com Fri Jun 25 00:46:33 1999 From: ericm at scriptics.com (Eric Melski) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: attribute lists and namespaces In-Reply-To: <37726ABA.4DD45608@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: Hello -- I am having trouble understanding the use of namespaces with respect to the declaration of attribute lists. Suppose I have a document like the following: ]>
    neogalactic hyperdrive
    Notice that I have declared an attribute list for the DETAILS element in the foo namespace. My belief is that the descr attribute should then be included in the list of attributes for the DETAILS element that appears in the document. However, I can't find any confirmation that that is the correct behaviour, and expat seems to disagree with me. That is, it does *not* include the descr attribute. If I explicitly specify the namespace for the DETAILS element when it is used, ala ... then expat does include the descr attribute. My question then, is: should the descr attribute be included in the attributes list for the instance of the DETAILS element, since it is a child of an element that has set a namespace, even though the namespace is not explicitly set for the DETAILS element itself? Thanks! - eric xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri Jun 25 01:00:17 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Announcement: SAX2 1999-06-01 alpha release for Java References: <14163.61975.304542.267110@localhost.localdomain> <3771BA5B.73B03568@pacbell.net> <37726ABA.4DD45608@locke.ccil.org> <37728BD1.BFC2CF77@pacbell.net> <37729031.FEA882D6@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <3772B8DE.EC44EAB1@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > [ re the dom-node property and where to start "parsing" Documents ] > > > Why do you not like making that property (dom-node) be read/write, > > Essentially because the value of getProperty("dom-node") is a Node, > whereas the argument to setProperty("dom-node", doc) needs to be a > Document. But a "Document" is a "Node", so there's no inconsistency. > This is an ugly asymmetry, even though the compiler is > unable to check the type. Adding a new property > ("dom-document") would be better, I guess I don't see that either. The value of the "dom-node" property when the startDocument() call is made needs to be the document; that's not an asymmetry. Adding another property might be nice, but doesn't seem essential. "Nice" only because you could see it when you weren't parsing. But I've got something against adding too many interfaces; I've found minimalist interfaces grow a lot more gracefully than the other kind! > > beyond that not being what you implemented already? > > (heh heh) Whoops -- I forgot my smiley! :-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri Jun 25 01:25:32 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: attribute lists and namespaces In-Reply-To: Eric Melski's message of Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <12551.199906242327@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > Notice that I have declared an attribute list for the DETAILS element in > the foo namespace. No, unfortunately. DTDs are not namespace-aware, and they work on the surface form of the document. There is no way to declare anything about an element in a namespace, only about an element with a given name. If you want to mix DTDs and namespaces, you will have to use consistent prefixes everywhere. Whether namespaces gain you anything with that constraint depends on your application. We expect one of the advantages of schemas to be that they will provide a namespace-aware equivalent of DTDs. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri Jun 25 03:29:22 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: News.Com on XML over HTTP In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.56.19990624145259.026d5ef0@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <199906250131.VAA25055@hesketh.net> At 02:54 PM 6/24/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,38355,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d > >"It's like inventing a language without verbs. There has to be a standard >way to deliver structured data. And if not CORBA, EJB, or even COM, then what?" That's one big, important article in an important place. Okay fine, news.com spends too much time covering the stock market. Still, a lot of people currently working with COM, CORBA, and EJB might run into it and start wondering if there isn't an easier way to deal with messaging. I can't say this kind of program-to-program communication is what drew me in to XML (or keeps me here), but it's pretty impressive stuff. I don't think XML messaging over HTTP is the answer to all problems or necessarily a replacement for CORBA, COM, and EJB, but it's a great answer for a large number of tasks. Long live HTTP! I guess worse really is better! Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Fri Jun 25 14:49:23 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Updated MSXML.H Message-ID: Hello all, I'm looking at a C++ sample from the Microsoft web site, and it seems to be using a different set of object names for the DOM than those in the header files on my system. I guess that I have just missed an update on the MSXML.H header file, so does anyone know where I can locate the most up-to-date one? Thanks, Mark Birbeck http://www.iedigital.net/ Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu Fri Jun 25 15:05:58 1999 From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: attribute lists and namespaces References: Message-ID: <37737F40.51FD0BA0@goon.stg.brown.edu> Eric Melski wrote: > > Hello -- > > I am having trouble understanding the use of namespaces with respect to > the declaration of attribute lists. Your misunderstanding is understandable. > > > ]> > > >
    > neogalactic hyperdrive >
    >     Note that you declare foo:DETAILS, but actually use DETAILS. You and I both know that there's a default namespace in effect when we see DETAILS in your document. But the DTD doesn't know this. There's probably no point in going through the namespace rant again except to say that they remain a bad idea, among other reasons because they do not interact with the only official schema mechanism we have (DTDs) and therefore lead to precisely this sort of confusion. As I said, your misunderstanding in understandable. -- Richard Goerwitz PGP key fingerprint: C1 3E F4 23 7C 33 51 8D 3B 88 53 57 56 0D 38 A0 For more info (mail, phone, fax no.): finger richard@goon.stg.brown.edu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bcurtis at efg.net Fri Jun 25 16:33:53 1999 From: bcurtis at efg.net (Bill Curtis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Java/XML/open source programmers wanted Fairfax VA In-Reply-To: <37710AFF.3B5359CF@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000501bebf17$f0ffc6c0$f110010a@curtislaptop.mortgage.com> Educational Finance Group is looking for Delphi, Java, database, XML/HTML developers. The projects include: internet portal, e-commerce and workflow using Webhub and Delphi and SQL Server 7 for the short term. Long range we are working on a Java/XML/Oracle platform. The long range project is open source using, MDSAX/COINS or some other integration of XML and Java, CBL (common business language) /OFX (open financial exchange), and SWAP or other open workflow standards. If these kinds of projects hold great interest for you and you could work in the Fairfax Virginia area, send me an email for more information. I apologize to anyone who considers this spam, but I thought the idea of gainful employment doing open source/Java/XML work might be of interest to many on the list. Please contact me at bcurtis@efg.net Bill Curtis xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Fri Jun 25 16:34:03 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Updated MSXML.H Message-ID: Dear Mark, Why don't you download the latest Platform SDK from Microsoft's site? Regards, Mark ---- Hey Mark, Thanks for that. Hope I didn't take up too much bandwidth from the important debate about identity. Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Birbeck > Sent: 25 June 1999 13:51 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Updated MSXML.H > > > Hello all, > > I'm looking at a C++ sample from the Microsoft web site, and > it seems to > be using a different set of object names for the DOM than those in the > header files on my system. I guess that I have just missed an > update on > the MSXML.H header file, so does anyone know where I can > locate the most > up-to-date one? > > Thanks, > > Mark Birbeck > http://www.iedigital.net/ > Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 25 16:59:31 1999 From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Updated MSXML.H References: Message-ID: <001801bebf1b$913f9cc0$c5010180@p197> You can always just use #import. Check out the IE5 article on COMdeveloper : http://www.comdeveloper.com/articles/ie5xml.asp Kind Regards, Richard A. richa@vivid-creations.com -- Vivid Creations Ltd. COM/XML/MSDN Specialists. http://www.vivid-creations.com Fax: (+44) 8700 560868 ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Birbeck To: Sent: 25 June 1999 15:04 Subject: RE: Updated MSXML.H > Dear Mark, > > Why don't you download the latest Platform SDK from Microsoft's site? > > Regards, > > Mark > > ---- > > Hey Mark, > > Thanks for that. Hope I didn't take up too much bandwidth from the > important debate about identity. > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Mark Birbeck > > Sent: 25 June 1999 13:51 > > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > Subject: Updated MSXML.H > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > I'm looking at a C++ sample from the Microsoft web site, and > > it seems to > > be using a different set of object names for the DOM than those in the > > header files on my system. I guess that I have just missed an > > update on > > the MSXML.H header file, so does anyone know where I can > > locate the most > > up-to-date one? > > > > Thanks, > > > > Mark Birbeck > > http://www.iedigital.net/ > > Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > > (un)subscribe xml-dev > > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > > following message; > > subscribe xml-dev-digest > > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri Jun 25 17:13:28 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: News.Com on XML over HTTP References: <199906250131.VAA25055@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37739D00.9985F924@pacbell.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 02:54 PM 6/24/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: > >http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,38355,00.html?st.ne.fd.gif.d > > > > ... > > I can't say this kind of program-to-program communication is what drew me > in to XML (or keeps me here), but it's pretty impressive stuff. I don't > think XML messaging over HTTP is the answer to all problems or necessarily > a replacement for CORBA, COM, and EJB, but it's a great answer for a large > number of tasks. It's why I got into XML -- I had a chance to see how folk were building web applications (== an increasing percentage of all multi-user apps) and noticed that XML+HTTP was an easier-to-use option, with better growth paths, than most of the solutions that were getting rolled! Moreover: the Web acheived what at least one of the groups that created CORBA (mine :-) was trying to achieve before the "RPC Wars" hijacked the CORBA process. (CDR... give me a break!) I see the highly engineered RPC frameworks (CORBA, COM, RMI) as being useful in niches, but not being as generally useful. The 80/20 rule applies, with the web hitting the bigger chunk and RPCs the smaller. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Sat Jun 26 00:21:03 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list Message-ID: <19990625220512.22627.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi Everyone, Is it possible to specify "" value in attribute list along with list other values. If so please specify a sample. Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Sat Jun 26 00:32:32 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: q: writing xml is not as easy as it looks Message-ID: i'm going to go out on a limb here... please bear with me. i'm relatively new to java and to xml, so i'm still on the curve... programmatically, i have to write an xml document that must be validated against a given dtd. i do not even know where to begin.. i could, of course, use the FileWriter to write to an ascii file, but there must be a better way! is it possible for me to construct an xml document in memory (using the DOM packages? the SAX packages?) and then write the xml document to a file using IBM or Sun's parser?? with all of the java source and tools out there, is there anything that will help me to write a valid xml document when my xml data is in multiple locations and my dtd is not static? yes, i've checked xmlsoftware.com, xmlinfo.com, IBM's alphaWorks, jxml.com, etc - i have the reader/parser side of my project working great.. but i'm having difficulties building my xml documents (data comes from multiple databases) and then writing them to a file for our customers.... suggestions? thank you! thanks for your time, -mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Sat Jun 26 10:28:59 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Updated MSXML.H Message-ID: That's cute. I never knew that feature was available. Anyway, I've already gone down what the article describes as "the painful" route. Still - that feature will come in handy one day. Regards, Mark > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Anderson > Sent: 25 June 1999 16:01 > To: Mark Birbeck; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: Updated MSXML.H > > > You can always just use #import. Check out the IE5 article > on COMdeveloper > : > > http://www.comdeveloper.com/articles/ie5xml.asp > > > Kind Regards, > > Richard A. > richa@vivid-creations.com > -- > Vivid Creations Ltd. > COM/XML/MSDN Specialists. > http://www.vivid-creations.com > Fax: (+44) 8700 560868 > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Mark Birbeck > To: > Sent: 25 June 1999 15:04 > Subject: RE: Updated MSXML.H > > > > Dear Mark, > > > > Why don't you download the latest Platform SDK from > Microsoft's site? > > > > Regards, > > > > Mark > > > > ---- > > > > Hey Mark, > > > > Thanks for that. Hope I didn't take up too much bandwidth from the > > important debate about identity. > > > > Mark > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Mark Birbeck > > > Sent: 25 June 1999 13:51 > > > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > > Subject: Updated MSXML.H > > > > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > I'm looking at a C++ sample from the Microsoft web site, and > > > it seems to > > > be using a different set of object names for the DOM than > those in the > > > header files on my system. I guess that I have just missed an > > > update on > > > the MSXML.H header file, so does anyone know where I can > > > locate the most > > > up-to-date one? > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Mark Birbeck > > > http://www.iedigital.net/ > > > Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > > > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > > > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > > > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > > > (un)subscribe xml-dev > > > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > > > following message; > > > subscribe xml-dev-digest > > > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat Jun 26 14:48:29 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: External DTD support added to expat Message-ID: <3774CB2D.6DDB1EB3@jclark.com> I've put a test version of expat at ftp://ftp.jclark.com/pub/test/expat.zip which adds experimental, optional support for parsing external DTDs and parameter entities (this does not include validation). Use xmlwf -p to use this from the command line. Compile with -DXML_DTD and see the comment above the declaration of XML_SetParamEntityParsing in xmlparse.h to use this in your own code. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s.livingstone at btinternet.com Sun Jun 27 02:16:42 1999 From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: Hi all. Does anyone know if a good XML editor is around? I was using Word 2000, but unfortunately there is not, but far it seems, XML compatability. I find this strange in combination with their push for XSL. Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, but allows you to work with XML without modification !! I looked at WebWriter, but I found that you kind of need to know what you are talking about to use it (my users have probably never heard of XML). Any ideas? Thanks Steven xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk Sun Jun 27 02:28:31 1999 From: mcaihgk4 at stud.umist.ac.uk (Giorgos Kaltekis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:30 2004 Subject: Create an instance of XMLDOM object Message-ID: <3775E123.AD7B37FC@stud.umist.ac.uk> Hello everybody. I am a beginner in XML and as so I face a "crucial" problem that avoids me from developing and running my application. I try to include an instance of the "Microsoft.XMLDOM" class in an HTML page and use it but failed. When I tried by placing the tag and using the classid that I have registered in my computer, from the Microsoft Development Environment (InterDev) a message box emerges: "An object has failed to load. The object will be displayed as text". Besides, when I use the command: var parser=new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.XMLDOM"); in Javascript I cannot use the tree nodes of DOM, which means that the parser variable isn't a reference to the XMLDOM class. If somebody has already faced the same or similar problem, I would be glad to listen how he solved it. cheers George xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sjs at portal.com Sun Jun 27 02:46:04 1999 From: sjs at portal.com (Steve Schow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <188D20A88142D11190E900A0C906BBD3015C586F@venus.portal.com> is Word2000 out yet? Is Office 2000 out? -steve > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Livingstone [mailto:s.livingstone@btinternet.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 5:22 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > Importance: High > > > Hi all. > > Does anyone know if a good XML editor is around? I was using > Word 2000, but > unfortunately there is not, but far it seems, XML > compatability. I find this > strange in combination with their push for XSL. > > Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, > but allows you to > work with XML without modification !! > > I looked at WebWriter, but I found that you kind of need to > know what you > are talking about to use it (my users have probably never > heard of XML). > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Steven > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 27 04:33:12 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: Message-ID: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> Steven Livingstone wrote: > > Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, but allows you to > work with XML without modification !! Who isn't? XML.com has a list of XML editors: http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/pt/Authoring I know for a fact that not all of them actually *support* XML but it seems that SGML support is considered "close enough" for xml.com. I don't mind that but I wish they would label the true XML supporters. The ones I know to support XML are: http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/Adept_Editor http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/Documentor http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/XMetaL Also a few others on their list aren't supported or even sold anymore. You will not find a tool that is "as easy to use as Word" out of the box. Think of Word as an XML editor that only works with a single DTD. It has been tweaked and honed to make editing with that DTD for many years. Now imagine you pop a document according to your vocabulary into an XML editor. It doesn't know what's a list item, it doesn't know what's a paragraph, etc. You'll need to do a bunch of work to teach it all of that stuff. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry. -- Eric Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron: The Manufacturing Delusion" http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Sun Jun 27 12:01:04 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532301DD@SENMAIL3> >Think of Word as an XML editor that only works with a single DTD. It has >been tweaked and honed to make editing with that DTD for many years. Now >imagine you pop a document according to your vocabulary into an XML >editor. It doesn't know what's a list item, it doesn't know what's a >paragraph, etc. You'll need to do a bunch of work to teach it all of that Maybe I'm missing something, but could they not have described the data using 'standard' XML and used a separate styling entity to (eg. XSL) to actually implement the data?? Surely describing the data for a list item and using some attribute understood by the styling language to interpret how it would be displayed would have made sense - no? I know there are things whcih just don't work - ie. Macros - but they don't work when saved as HTML anyway. I just think it would have been tremendous if we could use XML to it's potential and I con't see any real reason whay it couldn't have started with W2k. Maybe I'm just too optimistic - thanks for the pointers to the editors. cheers, Steven > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Prescod [SMTP:paul@prescod.net] > Sent: 27 June 1999 02:22 > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > > Steven Livingstone wrote: > > > > Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, but allows > you to > > work with XML without modification !! > > Who isn't? > > XML.com has a list of XML editors: > > http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/pt/Authoring > > I know for a fact that not all of them actually *support* XML but it seems > that SGML support is considered "close enough" for xml.com. I don't mind > that but I wish they would label the true XML supporters. The ones I know > to support XML are: > > http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/Adept_Editor > http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/Documentor > http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/p/XMetaL > > Also a few others on their list aren't supported or even sold anymore. > > You will not find a tool that is "as easy to use as Word" out of the box. > Think of Word as an XML editor that only works with a single DTD. It has > been tweaked and honed to make editing with that DTD for many years. Now > imagine you pop a document according to your vocabulary into an XML > editor. It doesn't know what's a list item, it doesn't know what's a > paragraph, etc. You'll need to do a bunch of work to teach it all of that > stuff. > > -- > Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself > http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco > > Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent > but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry. > -- Eric Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron: The Manufacturing Delusion" > > http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sun Jun 27 17:04:21 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532301DD@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: <37762B6E.3C6A3651@prescod.net> "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" wrote: > > Maybe I'm missing something, but could they not have described the data > using 'standard' XML and used a separate styling entity to (eg. XSL) to > actually implement the data?? I'm not sure what you mean by "implement"? But yes, these tools allow you to separate out your tool-independent XML from the configuration files that you use to make your XML useful in a particular tool. My point is that creating the configuration files is not something that an end-user will want to do. You can't just open them up and start typing as if it were Word for Windows unless your DTD happens to be one that they provide out of the box (usually XHTML and Docbook). > Surely describing the data for a list item and > using some attribute understood by the styling language to interpret how it > would be displayed would have made sense - no? That's exactly what they do. But I'll point out again that end users don't typially want to learn styling languages nor even style dialog boxes when Word just lets them start typing with no setup whatsoever. Therefore "XML" will never be as simple of a word processing format as Word binary. Docbook might be. XHTML might be. But not "XML in general." > I know there are things whcih just don't work - ie. Macros - but they don't > work when saved as HTML anyway. > I just think it would have been tremendous if we could use XML to it's > potential and I con't see any real reason whay it couldn't have started with > W2k. Well, these tools exist, you don't have to wait for Microsoft. But you don't get them "for free" the way most people get the Office tools. These companies don't have the luxury of taxing you at the hardware retailiers the way Microsoft does. It would be nice if W2K supported "really" XML but turning around the Word code-base to make it into a structured editor would be a Very Big Task. Note that W2K's actual enhancements are much more modest. I would watch for Microsoft to BUY an XML editor company instead of trying to recreate the decade's worth of work that has gone into AdeptEditor, Documentor and XMetaL. XMetaL is the tool that emulates Word most closely. If you want to see why XML editors are inherently quite different from Word it would be good to play with it. You'll see that the superficial similarity to Word is built on a radically different implementation and UI model. Consider: the underlying data model has to change. The parser has to change. The menu items have to change. Only the renderer could remain remotely the same. Consider also that the Word binary file format is Microsoft's most powerful defacto standard other than the Windows API. There was an article on slashdot about it recently: http://slashdot.org/features/99/06/25/1810223.shtml It would not be in Microsoft's interest to promote files that can be moved from Word to Wordperfect and from Windows to Linux with no degredation. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Software is largely a service industry operating under the persistent but unfounded delusion that it is a manufacturing industry. -- Eric Raymond, "The Magic Cauldron: The Manufacturing Delusion" http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/writings/magic-cauldron/magic-cauldron.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 28 00:32:56 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax References: Message-ID: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> Mark Birbeck wrote: > > A reply to Paul Prescod's reply to me: > > > > [XML definitions of schema are better than DTD ones because they > > > allow you to use the same tools as the rest of the time.] > > For programmers. But I asked about usability, not programmability. XML > > instance syntax is certainly easier for programmers. > > You might have moved the goalposts here. Aren't programmers entitled to > usability? In programming languages and APIs: sure. In syntaxes? Not really. The human readers and writers of a syntax should be the first market for its usability. Otherwise s-expressions would be the only syntax we use for anything. > Also, I assumed that the students you referred to were > programmers. Anyway, the question still remains, why is it better to > learn two syntaxes (XML and DTD) than just one? This is one of my favorite paradoxes. I can't count how many speeches and tutorials I've seen that started along the lines of: "XML schemas are great because they don't require you to learn a new syntax" and then continued along the lines of: "Now let's spend an hour talking about the syntax." A syntax is built on top of XML and still be a unique syntax that must be learned. RDF has a very complex syntax despite the fact that it is "just XML." The real question, then, is "why learn a non-XML syntax instead of an XML one?" The answer is the same as for URIs, XSL match patterns, programming languages and mathematical notations. We invent new syntaxes because they can be easier to read and understand. Usually being compact and/or familiar is an important part of that. So for instance, thousands of people are familiar with URLs and file systems and can learn XPointers based on that knowledge. Similarly, many people are familiar with regular expression syntax and can thus learn content model syntax based on that knowledge. Although I am in favor of instance syntax in general I think that recasting regular expressions as nested elements is a big mistake from a usability point of view and a very small gain from an ease-of-parsing point of view. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Perhaps the war in Kosovo would get more press if it were directed by George Lucas. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 28 00:48:33 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: X-Schema References: <37678E25.22F131D8@prescod.net> <14183.39278.309361.452638@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3776977D.95472F71@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Paul Prescod writes: > > > I am genuinely interested in improving XML usability, however, so I > > would like to hear counter-arguments. > > In my opinion, the best counter argument is that you can include > structured documentation as part of the schema itself. In a DTD, an > awful lot of useful information is stashed away in comments, and has > to be copied into documentation using cut-and-paste. This is true. You've helped me to realize that I don't dislike instance-syntax schemas -- I dislike instance-syntax content models. There is no reason to reinvent regular expressions in XML element syntax. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Perhaps the war in Kosovo would get more press if it were directed by George Lucas. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 28 00:48:41 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: X-Schema References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AF3F@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <3776972A.2612BB48@prescod.net> "Hunter, David" wrote: > > Don't get me wrong, I happen to like Schemas much better than DTDs, and the > data typing alone makes them a better choice for many things. I'm just > wondering if we wouldn't be better off adding the extra functionality to > DTDs, instead of creating a new language. Are there technical reasons why > we can't? (Does it have something to do with SGML compatibility? If so I'd > be willing to shut up right now. :-) There are two major features that DTDs lack: * namespace support * some built-in form of subtyping There is also the politically much more important feature of using XML instance syntax. Data types can be built as a convention on top of DTDs. That is, in part, the point of XML's notation feature. From: http://www.sgmlsource.com/ISOstds.PDF 17 November 1998 ... -- Recently SGML was also extended to do data types more directly: -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Perhaps the war in Kosovo would get more press if it were directed by George Lucas. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 28 07:48:47 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: CSS Parser References: <000001bea888$aafa46a0$5e70fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <37770D4A.C34A1BD0@pacbell.net> About a month ago, Don Park wrote: > Is there a publically available, production-quality, ready-to-use CSS parser > out there written in Java? Forwarding Don's private response for the benefit of XML-DEV: http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/DOWNLOAD.html As noted by the URL, it's not just a parser, there's a validator in there as well. IT clearly counts as available and ready to use. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Mon Jun 28 08:51:43 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: q: writing xml is not as easy as it looks In-Reply-To: Mark Cheek's message of "Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:36:42 -0400" References: Message-ID: Mark Cheek writes: > i have to write an xml document that must be validated > against a given dtd. i do not even know where to begin.. i could, of > course, use the FileWriter to write to an ascii file, but there must be > a better way! I must admit I use XEmacs and the psgml-mode. It reads the DTD, and prompts you with the valid elements/attributes. Try loading a HTML-document with it to get an impression of how it works. > is it possible for me to construct an xml document in > memory (using the DOM packages? the SAX packages?) SAX is (AFAIK) mostly useful for reading XML. > and then write the xml document to a file using IBM or Sun's parser? Sure, but it doesn't sound any simpler to me than using a text editor, if all you want is *one* conformant document. > is there anything that will help me to write a valid xml document > when my xml data is in multiple locations and my dtd is not static? What's the DTD? How much transformation and data reshuffling will you be doing? I'd normally grab Python and SAX for this kind of thing, and just push out the xml sequentially. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Mon Jun 28 09:12:13 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: Paul Prescod's message of "Sat, 26 Jun 1999 21:21:36 -0400" References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> Message-ID: Warning! Grumpy old fart rant follows! Read at your own risk! Paul Prescod writes: > Steven Livingstone wrote: >> Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, but allows you to >> work with XML without modification !! > Who isn't? I am not. I don't find Word easy to use at all, and I certainly wouldn't want to edit XML with it. I *might* - were I in a good mood, and I am not - be able to see the point of it storing documents according to a fixed DTD with a separate style sheet reflecting the formatting, but for general XML documents? Rather not. > It has been tweaked and honed to make editing with that DTD for many > years. Now imagine you pop a document according to your vocabulary > into an XML editor. It doesn't know what's a list item, it doesn't > know what's a paragraph, etc. You'll need to do a bunch of work to > teach it all of that stuff. No it doesn't/you haven't. It is quite sufficient for the editor to know what it can derive from the DTD, i.e. what element goes where and when and how. Extras include showing comments from the DTD (Adept does this, doesn't it?) and formatting the tags and content nicely. One might think that WYSIWYG is a good idea, and apply a style sheet to hide the tags, but you're really working with the structure of the information, and not its presentation, and hiding what you work with is IMHO *not* a good idea. Would you, driving a car, cover the windshield, because traffic is too complex? Thought not. If you want WYSIWYG - i.e. using your computer as a "paper simulator" to borrow Ted Nelson's words - you already have that with Word et al. XML is more useful if it's viewed as something deeper. But, yes, I have no illusions about people bothering to understand this. I fully expect them to take the time - a lot of it - to fire up Word and edit XML using
    -elements to get italics. Sigh. -kzm PPS: > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) Henry, will I still get bounces of this mail? -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Mon Jun 28 10:22:10 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > I am not. I don't find Word easy to use at all, and I certainly > wouldn't want to edit XML with it. I *might* - were I in a good mood, > and I am not - be able to see the point of it storing documents > according to a fixed DTD with a separate style sheet reflecting the > formatting, but for general XML documents? Rather not. What might I ask does a general XML document look like? Legislation? Database records? Automotive diagnostic data? Financial transactions? > One might think that WYSIWYG is a good idea, and apply a style sheet > to hide the tags, but you're really working with the structure of the > information, and not its presentation, and hiding what you work with > is IMHO *not* a good idea. Would you, driving a car, cover the > windshield, because traffic is too complex? Thought not. People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not working with the structure, they're working with the content. It is the duty of the application designer to support them, not lay bare the system's guts and watch them run shrieking into the night. Content experts are valued for their knowledge about a particular topic, not for being able to read a DTD. Structure should seek to make sense of what content provides, not grease it up and shoehorn it into a digestible shape. In many circumstances, there is no conflict between structure and content, so the two coexist happily, but best of luck trying to tell someone drafting legislation that they "just have to change it a bit to make it valid". > If you want WYSIWYG - i.e. using your computer as a "paper simulator" > to borrow Ted Nelson's words - you already have that with Word et al. > XML is more useful if it's viewed as something deeper. I believe that tools such as FrameMaker+SGML or WordPerfect 8.0 (I think it is) can be useful in some circumstances to mask complication from people who needn't know about it. Using the cues that paper provides is not a bad thing, provided what's happening in the background is valid. Would you hold the same argument about databases? (Only sissies use forms...) Structure and format need not be mutually exclusive, though I would agree there is still plenty of room for abuse with WYSIWYG tools. Obviously there are many types of XML documents that won't benefit from a nice application, but many will. > But, yes, I have no illusions about people bothering to understand > this. I fully expect them to take the time - a lot of it - to fire up > Word and edit XML using
    -elements to get italics. Sigh. How would that differ from making an incorrect assumption about the semantics of an element in a text editor and then applying a stylesheet? There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the analysis. At least it can be of some help, and is available either with or without an application. >From one Grumpy Old Fart to another... -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 28 11:04:55 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: writing xml is not as easy as it looks Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF33@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > programmatically, i have to write an xml document that must > be validated against a given dtd. i do not even know where to begin.. i could, of > course, use the FileWriter to write to an ascii file, but > there must be a better way! is it possible for me to construct an xml document in > memory (using the DOM packages? the SAX packages?) Many of the DOM packages allow you to create a DOM in memory and then serialise it as an XML document, though this isn't actually part of the DOM definition, and the way you reference a DTD may vary from one package to another. But in my experience I've found it easier to write the XML directly to an output file than to build the DOM structures. Probably the only benefit of going via the DOM is that it will handle character encoding and escaping for you. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 28 11:28:51 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: Java/XML/open source programmers wanted Fairfax VA Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF35@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Educational Finance Group is looking for Delphi, Java, > database, XML/HTML developers. > I personally have no objection to seeing the occasional job ad on xml-dev, but only if it says what corner of the planet it's in. My limited geographical knowledge, combined with awareness of casual internet habits, tells me that Fairfax VA might be a place name and might be in a country that requires a visa. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 28 11:32:54 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF36@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Is it possible to specify "" value in attribute list > along with list other values. If so please specify a > sample. Thanks in advance. I hope I've understood your question. You can certainly write in XML, and this is distinct from writing ; but be aware that there are a number of interfaces in the DOM and in XSL that do not distinguish the two cases. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Mon Jun 28 11:55:41 1999 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:31 2004 Subject: DDML Section 2.3.7: Nested SEQs within SEQ Message-ID: <00e201bec14b$7f7080e0$0c01a8c0@abiwebserver> Hello, PROBLEM STATEMENT I was going thru Section 2.3.7 of the DDML spec and could not understand why the content model for 'Seq' From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon Jun 28 12:14:21 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: writing xml is not as easy as it looks In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF33@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF33@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: * Kay Michael | | But in my experience I've found it easier to write the XML directly | to an output file than to build the DOM structures. Probably the | only benefit of going via the DOM is that it will handle character | encoding and escaping for you. Personally I think using a SAX DocumentHandler for this has several advantages, especially in Python: - it's easier (especially when dealing with attributes) - it makes it much easier for someone to intercept the output stream and make some other kind of use of it[1] - you get escaping automatically - you can easily get pretty-printing if you want it --Lars M. [1] Building their own object structure and working with that, passing through a parser filter before going to disk, building a DOM structure etc. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon Jun 28 12:18:36 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list In-Reply-To: <19990625220512.22627.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> References: <19990625220512.22627.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: * Mallikarjuna Sangappa | | Is it possible to specify "" value in attribute list along with list | other values. If so please specify a sample. Do you mean 'Is it possible to extend to also allow the empty string'? If the answer to my question is yes, the answer to yours is no. :) --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From salvatore.usai at cgi.it Mon Jun 28 14:48:01 1999 From: salvatore.usai at cgi.it (Salvatore Usai) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: XML 'at fly' Message-ID: <000601bec16d$2479a320$ae4db842@mi.cgi.it> Hello everybody. Does anyone know if it is possible to convert a XML file using a XSL representation 'at fly', I mean without reading an URL for XML, but i.e. reading only a string? Thank you for any help. Salvatore Usai -------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Mon Jun 28 15:13:57 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list Message-ID: <19990628131508.6360.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> How does one specify in the DTD so that the attribute is required and is one of the values of the possible values. Is the above possible? Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks ---Kay Michael wrote: > > > Is it possible to specify "" value in attribute list > > along with list other values. If so please specify a > > sample. Thanks in advance. > > I hope I've understood your question. > > You can certainly write in XML, and this is distinct from > writing ; but be aware that there are a number of interfaces in the > DOM and in XSL that do not distinguish the two cases. > > Mike Kay > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon Jun 28 15:17:15 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: XML Editor that allows toggling #FIXED values on/off Message-ID: <377776A3.5E6D0F71@mitre.org> Hi Folks, I am in search of an XML tool that has the following capabilites: 1. It creates a template from a DTD. The user fills in the template to generate an XML document. (Xeena does this). 2. Display of #FIXED attributes can be toggled on/off. For the project that I am working we have many #FIXED attributes that are irrelevant to the user but are needed for applications processing the XML document. Hence, we would like to be able to "turn off" display of those #FIXED attributes. Anyone know of such a tool? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Mon Jun 28 15:21:00 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list In-Reply-To: Mallikarjuna Sangappa's message of Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <199906281323.OAA06702@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > How does one specify in the DTD so that the attribute > is required and is one of the values of the possible > values. You can't do this. The allowed values for an enumeration type are NMTOKENs, and the empty string is not an NMTOKEN. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Mon Jun 28 16:10:49 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: Marcus Carr's message of "Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:24:20 +1000" References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> Message-ID: Marcus Carr writes: >> according to a fixed DTD with a separate style sheet reflecting the >> formatting, but for general XML documents? Rather not. > What might I ask does a general XML document look like? Legislation? > Database records? Automotive diagnostic data? Financial transactions? Yes. Either. Any. All. I guess I should have said "XML documents in general", as opposed to working with a fixed DTD. > People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > working with the structure, So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? > they're working with the content. It is the duty of the application > designer to support them, not lay bare the system's guts and watch > them run shrieking into the night. If you insist that people bright enough to work with legislation are too stupid to grok the simple context of tags, I would suggest you underestimate them. Of course they won't understand it if you do your best to hide structure behind formatting. > Content experts are valued for their knowledge about a particular > topic, not for being able to read a DTD. Who said they'd have to? > I believe that tools such as FrameMaker+SGML or WordPerfect 8.0 My experiences with those tools are kind of mediocre - that could of course be due to being exposed to SGML first, and the tools later. The problem is that the tools focus on the wrong end of the problem - how the document looks when printed on paper - instead of on what the document *is*. > Would you hold the same argument about databases? I would, in as much as I don't think a data entry program should have rows of buttons to determine fonts, colors and other WYSIWYG stuff for the various fields instead of labels. Actually, forms for entering database records is much closer to what I'd like for SGML input. I like XEmacs and the psgml-based html-mode; on loading a document with the .html extension, the user is prompted for a title, and presented with a buffer containing a rough framework of an HTML document, something like your title here

    your title here

    (some empty lines)
    (some signature stuff, last change and a mailto: link) You don't have to be a genius to work that one out. And this is considered difficult and obscure. If somebody is remotely familiar with the editor, it's about three minutes to explain where to put what information, and why, and off you go - and the built in parser restricts you to the valid elements and attributes at any point in the document. >> [...] XML using
    -elements to get italics. > How would that differ from making an incorrect assumption about the > semantics of an element in a text editor and then applying a > stylesheet? You mean, somebody actually inserting an element labeled
    to contain a license plate number, in the firm belief that that's what an address is? That could equally well happen, of course. The point is that if all you see is italics vs. normal, and you know about a button which gives you italics, then that button is what you're going to press. Sure, people may mistake the meaning of tags, but they are a) restricted in what context they may appear, and b) labeled with (hopefully something more meaningful than typographical information, and c) supplied with a helpful comment in the DTD, which the editor can display. > There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, > but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over > well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the > analysis. Of *course* you should require validity. What else would be the point of using SGML? If you want formatting oriented documents with no guarantee of correctness, it's not hard to find. > From one Grumpy Old Fart to another... -kzm Grumpier-than-thou -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Jun 28 16:33:14 1999 From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: PCDATA Vs. CDATA Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990628103518.007bc570@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 688 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990628/a367953d/attachment.bin From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Jun 28 16:41:30 1999 From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Attribute List Vs. Attachment List Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990628104345.007bc570@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 741 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990628/0581d80e/attachment.bin From tbray at textuality.com Mon Jun 28 16:57:12 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990628075317.0127e180@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:35 AM 6/28/99 +0100, Kay Michael wrote: >You can certainly write in XML, and this is distinct from >writing ; but be aware that there are a number of interfaces in the >DOM and in XSL that do not distinguish the two cases. Maybe XSL, not the DOM. (I hope). -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From vkalyan at wipsys.stph.net Mon Jun 28 17:00:47 1999 From: vkalyan at wipsys.stph.net (V Kalyana Chakravarthy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Expat's XML_SetCharacterDataHandler Message-ID: <7727471E16D5.AAA2D67@vindhya.wipsys.stph.net> Hi I have started using expat parser very recently and I have XML file which looks like this ]> A data 0 B data 0 C data 0 A data 1 B data 1 C data 1 I have set a character data handler to trap the char data between the start and end tags, but the callback is called for every subsequent call to start handler. I want to handle only on the occurance of genuine char data between the start and end tags. Can someone suggest a solution for my requirement. regards, Kalyan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 28 17:16:18 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <7727471E16D5.AAA2D67@vindhya.wipsys.stph.net> Message-ID: <199906281518.LAA31606@hesketh.net> After spending a couple of weeks with the Palm V I picked up at JavaOne, I've gotten attached to the thing, and not just as an organizer. I have some ideas for real work on it, some of which involve XML. Has anyone done any work on XML using the Palm? Before Palm OS 3.0, it seems like a lot of issues (like support for file streams, period) would have limited any XML work to conduit programming (on the desktop side.) I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. Anyway, before I started trying to build some XML tools for Palm, I thought I'd see if any of the rest of you have tried it yet. I'm pondering using the KJava Virtual Machine that came with the Palm (in alpha, of course), but might revert to C if it seems absolutely necessary. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon Jun 28 17:36:21 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A19FF@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon St.Laurent [SMTP:simonstl@simonstl.com] > > Has anyone done any work on XML using the Palm? Before Palm OS 3.0, it > seems like a lot of issues (like support for file streams, period) would > have limited any XML work to conduit programming (on the desktop side.) > > I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% > checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. > (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based > parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. > > Anyway, before I started trying to build some XML tools for Palm, I > thought > I'd see if any of the rest of you have tried it yet. I'm pondering using > the KJava Virtual Machine that came with the Palm (in alpha, of course), > but might revert to C if it seems absolutely necessary. > I would have thought that the "lite" building of expat would suffice (the one that sacrifices size for speed) - but I don't have a full palm dev kit built yet (I'm a bit scared to hack palm code for my own machine, when it's now become vital to my life!) - so I haven't personally tried it. What I'd be most interested in is XML for conduits, so you'd need an XML building module (trivial to do) as well as something for parsing for bidirectional communication. Let me know how you get on - and if there's anything I can do to help (I've not yet hacked expat, so don't expect any deep knowledge from me ). Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Mon Jun 28 17:38:27 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <199906281518.LAA31606@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <37779738.3F555F35@jclark.com> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% > checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. > (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based > parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. Expat 1.1 added a compile-time option to allow a smaller (and slightly slower) parser. With this option on Win32 it compiles into a single DLL that compresses to 23k. Is that too large for Palm? James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon Jun 28 17:46:48 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: Attribute List Vs. Attachment List In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990628104345.007bc570@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> References: <3.0.5.32.19990628104345.007bc570@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: * Dante M. Lee | | Can someone in the XML world tell me what is the difference between | the attribute list and the attachment list? What is the attachment list? I've never heard of it, and the XML recommendation contains only one instance of the word 'attachment' (in text stating that parameter entity replacement texts must have space characters attached on each side). --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon Jun 28 17:49:14 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <37779738.3F555F35@jclark.com> References: <199906281518.LAA31606@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <199906281550.LAA00659@hesketh.net> At 10:39 PM 6/28/99 +0700, James Clark wrote: >"Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > >> I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% >> checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. >> (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based >> parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. > >Expat 1.1 added a compile-time option to allow a smaller (and slightly >slower) parser. With this option on Win32 it compiles into a single DLL >that compresses to 23k. Is that too large for Palm? Nope! 23K is really what I was hoping for. 50K seemed like the ceiling, 10K seemed like too much to hope for. I'll definitely take a look. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon Jun 28 18:09:35 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:32 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <3777867C.3B76FE7E@prescod.net> Marcus Carr wrote: > > I believe that tools such as FrameMaker+SGML or WordPerfect 8.0 (I > think it is) can be useful in some circumstances to mask complication > from people who needn't know about it. Using the cues that paper > provides is not a bad thing, provided what's happening in the > background is valid. Would you hold the same argument about databases? > (Only sissies use forms...) I think that this is an important point. The WYSIWYG stands as a metaphor and a series of visual clues about what is happening in the background. On-screen buttons and windows often look 3-dimensional because it helps people think about them in terms that they understand. XML editors should do the same thing. On the other hand, way too many customers fall into the WYSIWYG myth and don't recognize that there are limits. There comes a point where slavish adherence to the metaphor gets in the way of easy editing. Yes, smart application designers recognize the need for a middle ground. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SCampana at bluestone.com Mon Jun 28 19:03:02 1999 From: SCampana at bluestone.com (Campana, Sal) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <512EBEF97F02D311B89900A0C9D17760129E85@thor.operations.bluestone.com> Bluestone Software has an app designed to run on a Palm Pilot and exchanges XML between the Palm and an XMLServer. It is an address book app. This may be something of interest. -----Original Message----- From: Matthew Sergeant (EML) [mailto:Matthew.Sergeant@eml.ericsson.se] Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 11:38 AM To: 'Simon St.Laurent'; XML-Dev Mailing list Subject: RE: parsers for Palm? > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon St.Laurent [SMTP:simonstl@simonstl.com] > > Has anyone done any work on XML using the Palm? Before Palm OS 3.0, it > seems like a lot of issues (like support for file streams, period) would > have limited any XML work to conduit programming (on the desktop side.) > > I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% > checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. > (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based > parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. > > Anyway, before I started trying to build some XML tools for Palm, I > thought > I'd see if any of the rest of you have tried it yet. I'm pondering using > the KJava Virtual Machine that came with the Palm (in alpha, of course), > but might revert to C if it seems absolutely necessary. > I would have thought that the "lite" building of expat would suffice (the one that sacrifices size for speed) - but I don't have a full palm dev kit built yet (I'm a bit scared to hack palm code for my own machine, when it's now become vital to my life!) - so I haven't personally tried it. What I'd be most interested in is XML for conduits, so you'd need an XML building module (trivial to do) as well as something for parsing for bidirectional communication. Let me know how you get on - and if there's anything I can do to help (I've not yet hacked expat, so don't expect any deep knowledge from me ). Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov Mon Jun 28 19:24:58 1999 From: dtmlee at pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante M. Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: PCDATA VS. CDATA Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990628132715.007bc1a0@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 782 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990628/9bfcb09c/attachment.bin From Michael.Kay at icl.com Mon Jun 28 19:52:57 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: Blank value in attribute list Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EF38@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > >You can certainly write in XML, and this is > distinct from > >writing ; but be aware that there are a number of > interfaces in the > >DOM and in XSL that do not distinguish the two cases. > > Maybe XSL, not the DOM. (I hope). -T. > REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001, section 1.2, subsection "Interface Element", "Methods", "getAttribute": "returns the attribute value as a string, or the empty string if that attribute does not have a specified value". Not all products comply, last time I tried DataChannel it returned null rather than empty string. To distinguish an absent attribute from an attribute whose value is "" you have to use the more complex interface getAttributeNode(). Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nmanson at livepage.com Mon Jun 28 21:04:02 1999 From: nmanson at livepage.com (Nick Manson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001801bec199$3613b1d0$ea8f92d1@livepage.com> Try WordPerfect _2000_ or XMetal. Both have XML support and a fairly good user interface. Also, unlike many of the other ex-sgml editors, they are relatively easy to configure. On a related note, I remember hearing about some new Java-based XML editors. Has anyone tried them? Any thoughts on their usefulness and/or configurability? > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Steven Livingstone > Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 8:22 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > Importance: High > > > Hi all. > > Does anyone know if a good XML editor is around? I was using Word > 2000, but > unfortunately there is not, but far it seems, XML compatability. > I find this > strange in combination with their push for XSL. > > Anyway, I am looking for an Editor as easy to use as Word, but > allows you to > work with XML without modification !! > > I looked at WebWriter, but I found that you kind of need to know what you > are talking about to use it (my users have probably never heard of XML). > > Any ideas? > > Thanks > Steven > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From greynolds at datalogics.com Mon Jun 28 21:00:13 1999 From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679C21@martinique> Take a look at http://www.interlog.com/~nbridges/quartus.html. Quartus is a palm-hosted forth compiler; its pretty slick. On my long list of things to do is an xml parser/editor for the palm written in forth (goal: 10k). But I find forth takes some getting used to so I don't know if I'll ever get to it myself; but there is a discussion forum at the site, and I'd be surprised if somebody there wasn't interested in xml. -gregg -----Original Message----- From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 10:22 AM To: XML-Dev Mailing list Subject: parsers for Palm? After spending a couple of weeks with the Palm V I picked up at JavaOne, I've gotten attached to the thing, and not just as an organizer. I have some ideas for real work on it, some of which involve XML. Has anyone done any work on XML using the Palm? Before Palm OS 3.0, it seems like a lot of issues (like support for file streams, period) would have limited any XML work to conduit programming (on the desktop side.) I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. Anyway, before I started trying to build some XML tools for Palm, I thought I'd see if any of the rest of you have tried it yet. I'm pondering using the KJava Virtual Machine that came with the Palm (in alpha, of course), but might revert to C if it seems absolutely necessary. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon Jun 28 21:12:22 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: PCDATA VS. CDATA In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990628132715.007bc1a0@pop400.gsfc.nasa.gov> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990628151406.009ceb30@nexus.polaris.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text/enriched Size: 2626 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990628/f5eb20d1/attachment.bin From mamster at webeasy.com Mon Jun 28 22:22:03 1999 From: mamster at webeasy.com (Michael Amster) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679C21@martinique> Message-ID: <3777DA38.B4F1C227@webeasy.com> The JavaOne conference announced KVM - a Java Micro platform that works on PalmOS. I did not go, but the secondhand info I have heard sounds promising. This means that some of the smaller XML parsers like AElfred should do well. I have written my own that is missing a lot of the Entity stuff in about 12K right now. It will parse everything without DTD substitutions (local entities). If you wanted something that just does the simplest XML, you could probably get away with similar sizes. -MA "Reynolds, Gregg" wrote: > Take a look at http://www.interlog.com/~nbridges/quartus.html. Quartus is a > palm-hosted forth compiler; its pretty slick. On my long list of things to > do is an xml parser/editor for the palm written in forth (goal: 10k). But I > find forth takes some getting used to so I don't know if I'll ever get to it > myself; but there is a discussion forum at the site, and I'd be surprised if > somebody there wasn't interested in xml. > > -gregg > > -----Original Message----- > From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com] > Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 10:22 AM > To: XML-Dev Mailing list > Subject: parsers for Palm? > > After spending a couple of weeks with the Palm V I picked up at JavaOne, > I've gotten attached to the thing, and not just as an organizer. I have > some ideas for real work on it, some of which involve XML. > > Has anyone done any work on XML using the Palm? Before Palm OS 3.0, it > seems like a lot of issues (like support for file streams, period) would > have limited any XML work to conduit programming (on the desktop side.) > > I think an Aelfred-like approach, which accepts XML but sacrifices 100% > checking for performance and size, would probably be most appropriate. > (With only 2MB of memory total, I think we'll be working with event-based > parsing only.) Even Expat seems a bit large for this kind of work. > > Anyway, before I started trying to build some XML tools for Palm, I thought > I'd see if any of the rest of you have tried it yet. I'm pondering using > the KJava Virtual Machine that came with the Palm (in alpha, of course), > but might revert to C if it seems absolutely necessary. > > Simon St.Laurent > XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications > Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical (July) > Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies > http://www.simonstl.com > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN > 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) -- ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-WEBEASY-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ Michael Amster mamster@webeasy.com 4676 Admiralty Way, Suite 300 Tel: 310.576.0770 Marina Del Rey, CA 90292 Fax: 310.576.2011 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon Jun 28 22:54:56 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679C21@martinique> <3777DA38.B4F1C227@webeasy.com> Message-ID: <3777E1AC.3201ADB@pacbell.net> Speaking of parsers, and perhaps committing a brand of sacrilege here (almost certainly so from the SGML side of the world) ... ... what do folk think of using the following XML subset: Everything in XML, except the support which takes up something like 2/3 of most parsers. Clearly that'd be subset for which validation doesn't apply; all data integrity would be provided by higher levels. BUT -- it'd be a subset that'd work nicely with all conformant XML parsers (validating and non), it'd support namespaces and all the schema proposals I last heard of, and there should be no issue of size for most environments. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Mon Jun 28 23:07:45 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax In-Reply-To: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> References: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> Message-ID: At 17:17 -0400 27/6/99, Paul Prescod wrote: >Although I am in favor of instance syntax in general I think that >recasting regular expressions as nested elements is a big mistake from a >usability point of view and a very small gain from an ease-of-parsing >point of view. I'm really not sure I understand what you're talking about here so the following comments may be totally inapplicable, but I think my point below is still valid. From a usability point of view (which drives a LOT of my API design) I think it is much easier for most people to understand definitions in context. Many document types, and particularly database documents, will define elements that are only meaningful in a larger context (eg: LastName within Person). The X-schema and DTD modes seem to support only defining all atomic elements separately from a context saying where they are used. This requires the reader and writer of these schemae to build an abstract model in their heads that puts the definitions in context. For both machine and human reading and writing of schemae, where nested contexts are meaningful, I found the following variation much easier to follow. So did the programmers I tested it on - as a UI designer of several years experience I'm not so bold as to propose something on usability grounds without a focus group :-). The test group I picked range in programming experience, database experience and programming languages(VB, C & C++). The only common factor was their lack of XML or SGML background. The contextual definition of elementTypes which are atomic (containing a dataTypeRef) also allows for reuse of element names which is essential for writing out database schemae. Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Tue Jun 29 00:16:12 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990628151549.012c6c30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 01:57 PM 6/28/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >... what do folk think of using the following XML subset: > > Everything in XML, except the support > which takes up something like 2/3 of most parsers. Distinguish between and validation. I do *not* agree that parsing DTD syntax takes up 2/3 of a parser. On the other hand, it's reasonable to expect a validating parser to be twice the size of a non-validating one. Note that nearly all the existing validating parsers parse DTD syntax just fine. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 00:38:02 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax References: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3777C8F7.86FED6AD@prescod.net> Andy Dent wrote: > > I'm really not sure I understand what you're talking about here so > the following comments may be totally inapplicable, but I think my > point below is still valid. Inapplicable but nevertheless intersting. > From a usability point of view (which drives a LOT of my API design) > I think it is much easier for most people to understand definitions > in context. > > Many document types, and particularly database documents, will define > elements that are only meaningful in a larger context (eg: LastName > within Person). > > The X-schema and DTD modes seem to support only defining all atomic > elements separately from a context saying where they are used. > > This requires the reader and writer of these schemae to build an > abstract model in their heads that puts the definitions in context. There are not many elements that appear in one and only one context. Therefore it is necessarily the case that readers must put definitions in context "in their heads." When you see the definition for LI in HTML OL, you need to keep in your head the fact that that same element type can occur in HTML UL. If you define it in both places then you need some way of saying that they are really the "same thing" -- the opposite of your definitions in context. If I had to choose, reusing element types (possible in DTDs) is more important than being able to have locally named element types (just use a local prefix!). In other words if I am required to choose I would have to say that DTDs made the better of the two choices. I don't have a big problem with contextually specific element types but there are usuability issues there. Is it okay for you that dragging and dropping a LastName from one context in a document to another would render it invalid because the same tag means completely different things in the same document? I'm not convinced that local element types are worth causing this problem. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Tue Jun 29 01:14:20 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax In-Reply-To: <3777C8F7.86FED6AD@prescod.net> References: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> <3777C8F7.86FED6AD@prescod.net> Message-ID: At 15:11 -0400 28/6/99, Paul Prescod wrote: >There are not many elements that appear in one and only one context. >Therefore it is necessarily the case that readers must put definitions in >context "in their heads." When you see the definition for LI in HTML OL, >you need to keep in your head the fact that that same element type can >occur in HTML UL. This is in a document domain. XML has a wider application. I have absolutely no argument with separate element definitions being available, just believing that there is a significant scope of applying XML where contextual definitions will be useful and quite possibly more usable. I think we need to be very careful about distinguishing HTML or similar documents from mapping database tables and other tabular information (eg: spreadsheets) where users typically have unprefixed local elements with meaning determined by context. Your example of LI appearing in OL and UL is interesting because it opens up a wider typing issue. LI can't appear in a P element and it doesn't make sense to a user for it to appear there. If OL and UL are regarded as flavours of "List" then LI appearing in both is valid. The semantic model of a list, which may be ordered or unordered, maps onto the syntactic model of the OL or UL container. My perspective is different from many (most?) people on this list. I have no SGML background or other document orientation. I combine database API thinking with a lot of work on UI design, particularly for naive users. I've been working on user interfaces for databases for years, mainly on the Mac, and so a lot of my thinking is coloured by the models I've seen people apply. I've also spent a lot of time mentoring junior programmers and designing our tool API's for that audience. Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 29 01:25:49 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:33 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <3.0.32.19990628151549.012c6c30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <377804FF.7669D94A@pacbell.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 01:57 PM 6/28/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: > >... what do folk think of using the following XML subset: > > > > Everything in XML, except the support > > which takes up something like 2/3 of most parsers. > > Distinguish between and validation. I do *not* agree > that parsing DTD syntax takes up 2/3 of a parser. I did distinguish between them. In part that's why I described this as a (potential) subset; it's more than just use of a nonvalidating parser, which is an option I assume everyone on the XML-DEV list understands. Savings may not be 2/3 ... but I'd be _really_ surprised if they were less than 1/2. The best way to know is to implement ... :-) Meanwhile, consider that: - The most complex syntax (content models, ATTLIST, and other declarations) is in the DTD exclusively. - State related to those constructs needs to be managed and used even when not validating (given an internal subset), such as performing mandatory attribute normalizations. and (recursively) including internal entities. - Entities are declared in the DTD (except for builtins) and there's a fair bit of code involved in handling them even if you don't include external entities. - Every functionality taken out means it's possible to take out the associated error handling and reporting, and often to straighen out code paths. Such savings can be surprisingly large; such handling often more than doubles code size. - There are a lot of efforts under way that either don't require DTDs, or which stumble over them. - Applications would have a lot less low-level variation to deal with, and higher levels would have a cleaner slate. The savings are, in short, indirect as well as direct. > On the other hand, > it's reasonable to expect a validating parser to be twice the size > of a non-validating one. Last time I measured, it was more like 15% ... Validation, done right, is mostly a bunch of carefully placed tests, monitoring a content model state machine, and tracking IDs. (Try rebuilding Sun's parser without the validation support -- there's a "static boolean" constant that removes the tests, and then there are some classes that can go away.) Of course, that 15% compares a validating parser against a nonvalidating one which processed all the external entities ... as most do, since that is the best way to get a portable application model processing. > Note that nearly all the existing > validating parsers parse DTD syntax just fine. -T. I suspect you meant to say "nonvalidating" there ... :-) Of course they do -- that's a requirement of being able to parse a with an internal subset. But they can become a LOT smaller if they don't need to handle even that, and are relieved of the responsibilities to handle the syntax and state in a DOCTYPE. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Tue Jun 29 01:33:25 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990628163535.013bbe40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 04:27 PM 6/28/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >> Distinguish between and validation. I do *not* agree >> that parsing DTD syntax takes up 2/3 of a parser. > >I did distinguish between them. ... >Savings may not be 2/3 ... but I'd be _really_ surprised if they were >less than 1/2. The best way to know is to implement ... :-) I did. >But they can become a LOT >smaller if they don't need to handle even that, and are relieved of >the responsibilities to handle the syntax and state in a DOCTYPE. I disagree. We went through this quite a bit in the XML Syntax Working Group. It is absolutely *not* the case that DTD parsing is demonstrably very expensive. There was a conventional wisdom floating about that a parser for a DTD-free dialect of XML could deliver the same performance and functionality in immensely less space. Empirical analysis fails to support this contention. Analysis of existing parsers shows immense amounts of work going into things like reading Unicode efficiently, doing well-formedness checks on entity nesting, and tracking locations to support good error messages - I repeat that there is a resounding lack of evidence to show that parsing DTD syntax is particularly taxing for any competent programmer. Even parameter entities aren't hard to implement - they are hard to *describe*, just not hard to implement. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 01:55:25 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax References: <377694DA.82C2F361@prescod.net> <3777C8F7.86FED6AD@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3777F924.1E2F1FBA@prescod.net> Andy Dent wrote: > > At 15:11 -0400 28/6/99, Paul Prescod wrote: > >There are not many elements that appear in one and only one context. > >Therefore it is necessarily the case that readers must put definitions in > >context "in their heads." When you see the definition for LI in HTML OL, > >you need to keep in your head the fact that that same element type can > >occur in HTML UL. > > This is in a document domain. XML has a wider application. There is no difference between the domains. I can't remember the last time that I heard someone say: "oh, well that applies in the document domain but not the database domain" where I couldn't readily come up with a database example that had the same problem -- or vice versa. The document/data dichotmy is mostly imagined. Database example: I have a table mapping personIDs to names. I serialize customer records and partner records. Both use the same personID->name table and thus want to output the same personName element type in the serialization. > I have > absolutely no argument with separate element definitions being > available, just believing that there is a significant scope of > applying XML where contextual definitions will be useful and quite > possibly more usable. Then we agree. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Tue Jun 29 01:55:27 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > > working with the structure, > > So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? Wow, you are grumpy. Do I really need to rephrase that sentence? > If you insist that people bright enough to work with legislation are > too stupid to grok the simple context of tags, I would suggest you > underestimate them. Of course they won't understand it if you do your > best to hide structure behind formatting. It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of focus. If you're paying a lot of money to obtain someone's expertise about the law, it's not practical (and may even be financially foolish) to pay them to fiddle around with tags. What would you say to the legal expert who said that anyone smart enough to understand XML tagging should be capable of writing legislation? Why do we assume that just because we have a need for XML data, all sorts of different professions are going to accommodate us at their own expence? > My experiences with those tools are kind of mediocre - that could of > course be due to being exposed to SGML first, and the tools later. > The problem is that the tools focus on the wrong end of the problem - > how the document looks when printed on paper - instead of on what the > document *is*. I'm not saying that it's the right way to go in all cases, just that I'm sick of having people ask if they can author in Word and me telling them they have to use MultiEdit or Emacs. They don't want to hear it and I don't want to say it. There is a strong correlation between what a document looks like on paper and what it is - as paper publishing is still inevitable in some industries, they are often nearly the same thing. It won't work maintaining that I've been suckered by applications - my experience in SGML predates any WYSIWYG tools by many years and even now I use MultiEdit over any application. Years of banging my head against the wall have cured me of the urge to persist with that as a solution for clients (and left me with a near-constant ringing in my ears...) > Actually, forms for entering database records is much closer to what > I'd like for SGML input. I like XEmacs and the psgml-based html-mode; > on loading a document with the .html extension, the user is prompted > for a title, and presented with a buffer containing a rough framework > of an HTML document, something like > > > > > your title here > > >

    your title here

    > (some empty lines) >
    > (some signature stuff, last change and a mailto: link) > > > > You don't have to be a genius to work that one out. And this is > considered difficult and obscure. If somebody is remotely familiar > with the editor, it's about three minutes to explain where to put what > information, and why, and off you go - and the built in parser > restricts you to the valid elements and attributes at any point in the > document. Wunderbar! And you get valid HTML out the other side, you say? Have you tried modifying it for DocBook? Ironically, FrameMaker+SGML will allow you to edit your data in a visual tree-based interface, though I don't think much of it personally. I find it interesting that you are looking for an application that will help you create good data, but apparently begrudge others the same thing. Your preferred interface involves the use of raw tags; I'm maintaining that some others may want even more help. I use MultiEdit - by your logic, I should be running you down for looking for a guided syntax editor. It doesn't have to be ugly to create correct data. > The point is that if all you see is italics vs. normal, and you know > about a button which gives you italics, then that button is what > you're going to press. Sure, people may mistake the meaning of tags, > but they are a) restricted in what context they may appear, and b) > labeled with (hopefully something more meaningful than typographical > information, and c) supplied with a helpful comment in the DTD, which > the editor can display. I think you're considering users in too narrow a band - they aren't all bereft of any understanding about structure. They always understand what you're trying to achieve, they just want it to be easy for them to use. An application is an interface to the structure that doesn't interfere with the content. An application designer is the one that tries to ensure that both objectives are satisfied. > > There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, > > but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over > > well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the > > analysis. > > Of *course* you should require validity. What else would be the point > of using SGML? If you want formatting oriented documents with > no guarantee of correctness, it's not hard to find. You're mixing up what I'm saying - well-formedness doesn't equate to format oriented documents and the subject still says "XML Editors". I'm saying that validity allows you to guide the user by restricting the available elements whereas well-formed doesn't. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue Jun 29 02:14:00 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <3777E1AC.3201ADB@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000001bec1c4$9f4c96a0$0babfea9@w21tp> If following two conditions are met, there is no need to mess with validation on PalmPilot: 1. Palm applications produce 'valid' XML documents. 2. Palm applications sees only 'valid' XML documents. #1 condition can be met through a PalmPilot software certification process, probably by 3Com. #2 condition can be met through a similar certification process which make sure that servers, gateways, and proxies talking to PalmPilot devices validate XML documents before forwarding them to the PalmPilot unit. What I am saying is that an alternative to validating everything everytime is to create a 'validated zone' within which every document is assumed to be valid. Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From niko at cmsplatform.com Tue Jun 29 02:40:15 1999 From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: Expat's XML_SetCharacterDataHandler References: <7727471E16D5.AAA2D67@vindhya.wipsys.stph.net> Message-ID: <00be01bec1c7$f0f085e0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> Kalyan wrote: > I have set a character data handler to trap the char data between the start > and end tags, but the callback is called for every subsequent call to start > handler. I want to handle only on the occurance of genuine char data > between the start and end tags. Are you calling Expat for each "text record" individually? If so, you would get a "char data" callback for a start or end element's end-of-record character (forced to '\n', regardless of the actual EOR char, per the XML spec). By specification, only the characters between the "<>" are considered part of the start/end element -- all other characters are char data. If your parse buffer contains multiple elements and their associated char data, you'd still see the EOR characters in the char data callback (modified as described above). I'm using Expat to parse pseudo-XML data derived from our proprietary markup format, and so i've had to use a combination of "(char_data == '\n)'" and "(buffer_length == 1)", plus a flag in the parser "userdata" to differentiate between the EOR characters at the end of element tags (what i'm discarding), and those EOR characters that represent blank lines in the content (what i have to keep). Regards, -Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue Jun 29 03:10:53 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400F1AC7@master.design-intelligence.com> I agree that validating is not a sizable increase to the size of an XML parser. I wrote a validating parser and the amount of extra code is probably more in the 15% range than the 50% range for DTD parsing and attendant indirect effects. The parsing of DTD syntax is not large at all. Attribute defaulting and normalization is also not much code. Entity expansion determines an architecture for streams in the parser, but not much code. Element pattern validation is about 1000 lines of C++, but I implemented an n-element backtracking pattern matcher. It can handle declarations such as: The spec only requires 1 element lookahead so it was overkill (the specific clause said 'may' so I did). I also agree that a better description of some XML features, entity expansion in particular, would make implementation easier (in the sense of clearly knowing what is required not the amount of code). Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com ---------- From: Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com] Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 4:36 PM To: David Brownell Cc: XML-Dev Mailing list Subject: Re: parsers for Palm? At 04:27 PM 6/28/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >> Distinguish between and validation. I do *not* agree >> that parsing DTD syntax takes up 2/3 of a parser. > >I did distinguish between them. ... >Savings may not be 2/3 ... but I'd be _really_ surprised if they were >less than 1/2. The best way to know is to implement ... :-) I did. >But they can become a LOT >smaller if they don't need to handle even that, and are relieved of >the responsibilities to handle the syntax and state in a DOCTYPE. I disagree. We went through this quite a bit in the XML Syntax Working Group. It is absolutely *not* the case that DTD parsing is demonstrably very expensive. There was a conventional wisdom floating about that a parser for a DTD-free dialect of XML could deliver the same performance and functionality in immensely less space. Empirical analysis fails to support this contention. Analysis of existing parsers shows immense amounts of work going into things like reading Unicode efficiently, doing well-formedness checks on entity nesting, and tracking locations to support good error messages - I repeat that there is a resounding lack of evidence to show that parsing DTD syntax is particularly taxing for any competent programmer. Even parameter entities aren't hard to implement - they are hard to *describe*, just not hard to implement. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue Jun 29 05:15:03 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <3.0.32.19990628163535.013bbe40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <37783ABD.A1AB5F7C@pacbell.net> > > But they can become a LOT > >smaller if they don't need to handle even that, and are relieved of > >the responsibilities to handle the syntax and state in a DOCTYPE. > > I disagree. We went through this quite a bit in the XML Syntax Working > Group. It is absolutely *not* the case that DTD parsing is demonstrably > very expensive. There was a conventional wisdom floating about that > a parser for a DTD-free dialect of XML could deliver the same performance > and functionality in immensely less space. Empirical analysis fails > to support this contention. Some different empirical analysis says it's not so far off as that. Of course, "immense" is a loaded word. > Analysis of existing parsers shows immense > amounts of work going into things like reading Unicode efficiently, Admittedly reading Unicode "efficiently" is something folk spend time on, but at least in Java that's mostly to benchmark better. Handling different character encodings is for system libraries to handle, it's not specific to XML. (Yes, the internals of java.io.Reader leave lots to be desired; if that were open source, major performance fixes would have happened ages ago!) > doing well-formedness checks on entity nesting, Well, the subset I described had no need for such well-formedness checks, or the other overhead for entities. > and tracking locations to support good error messages That one never seemed to me to involve much work; but when there's really only one entity ("the document") then this is a lot simpler to be tracking/reporting. The error-related stuff that affects space and performance relates to detecting and handling errors ... which is basically a linear function of how many errors are possible. Remove those error cases and you remove the code to deal with them. > I repeat that there is a resounding lack > of evidence to show that parsing DTD syntax is particularly taxing for > any competent programmer. Even parameter entities aren't hard to > implement - they are hard to *describe*, just not hard to implement. -Tim I get the feeling you're missing my point, which wasn't exclusively about DTD syntax. (Though a quick count did show that removing the and everything it implies removes something like 4/9 of the grammar productions.) My earlier post listed several other ways a DTD-less subset cuts costs. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Tue Jun 29 06:05:52 1999 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: DDML Section 2.3.7: Nested SEQs within SEQ Message-ID: <015b01bec1e3$6cf735b0$0c01a8c0@abiwebserver> Hello, PROBLEM STATEMENT I was going thru Section 2.3.7 of the DDML spec and could not understand why the content model for 'Seq' could not contain nested Seqs . for eg. Acc. to the above content model if I had an element decl like: Why is something like the following DDML representation not allowed (minus the nested )? Thanks in advance for any replies, Amit Rekhi mailto:amit@abinfosys.com Software Engineer A.B. Infosys Private Limited http://www.abinfosys.com Ph: 91-011-6512816,6512822 Fax: 91-011-6518873 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From vkalyan at wipsys.stph.net Tue Jun 29 07:20:19 1999 From: vkalyan at wipsys.stph.net (V Kalyana Chakravarthy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: Expat's DTD parsing and required callbacks Message-ID: <772747796D6.AAA6356@vindhya.wipsys.stph.net> Hi, I have started using expat parser very recently and I have specific requirement of knowing structure of the DTD. For example in the below case, ]> I would like to know the heirarchy of the data that follows the above prolog which might look something this, flights itinerary a b c My requirement is to parse an xml file and display it in a list/table format, for that I need column headers (or column names) which would be in the document type definition. Can someone help me are there any specific callback handlers apart from the default one in expat! Thanks, Kalyan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Tue Jun 29 09:09:12 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: X-Schema syntax Message-ID: Paul Prescod wrote: > Mark Birbeck wrote: > > > Also, I assumed that the students you referred to were > > programmers. Anyway, the question still remains, why is it better to > > learn two syntaxes (XML and DTD) than just one? > > This is one of my favorite paradoxes. I can't count how many > speeches and tutorials I've seen that started along the lines of: "XML schemas are > great because they don't require you to learn a new syntax" and then > continued along the lines of: "Now let's spend an hour > talking about the syntax." I agree with you, but that was not the substance of my argument - in fact it was mentioned only in passing. You didn't actually address my main point, which was ... Productivity gains from XML are in part achieved by being able to represent many forms of information in a consistent way. For example, if you develop a tool that can transform data of one type, it can also be used to transform information of thousands of other types. An editor that can edit data of one type - and enforce data types, enumerated values, and so on - can be used to edit data of another type. Tools that transfer, store, compress, parse, validate, and so on, data of one type can be used to do the same to data of other types. I see no reason why XML grammars themselves should not benefit from the productivity gains of XML. Why shouldn't I be able to use the same indexing techniques so that I can search for all grammars that have a delivery address element? Why shouldn't I be able to transform one grammar into another grammar using XSLT, say in German instead of English? Or use XSLF to produce help files? IMVHO, there are a number of problems with XML that have been bouncing around for a while that cannot be solved at the level of meta-information, and must be looked at on the plane of meta-meta-information. Take the oft-discussed question of searching documents that may have common data but were produced with different DTDs - the old , , and problem. The solution often offered is to impose a common DTD on everyone - pretty unlikely to ever happen, and even if it does in the future there would be legacy data to contend with. However, we could begin to solve this by dealing with the schemas themselves - using the same tools we are already using - provided that we express meta-meta-information as meta-information. Search engines of the future might then pick up documents and their related schema from your server, as well as a transform file that describes how to convert the elements in your schema to some agreed standard words. Best regards, Mark Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net http://www.iedigital.net/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Jun 29 10:32:56 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:34 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: Marcus Carr's message of "Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:56:58 +1000" References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> Message-ID: Marcus Carr writes: > Ketil Z Malde wrote: >>> People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not >>> working with the structure, >> So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? > Wow, you are grumpy. Told you so, didn't I? > Do I really need to rephrase that sentence? Perhaps I misunderstood. What are they working with, and why is a WYSIWYG environment focusing on fonts and colors, better than one displaying the document structure? > It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of focus. If you're paying > a lot of money to obtain someone's expertise about the law, it's not > practical (and may even be financially foolish) to pay them to fiddle around > with tags. I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't exist by covering it under formatting issues. > What would you say to the legal expert who said that anyone smart > enough to understand XML tagging should be capable of writing > legislation? I would say that while I agree that the world would be a better place if lawyers were replaced by those understanding XML, writing of legislation is a highly specific, complicated process, while tags are a really simple concept. > Why do we assume that just because we have a need for XML data, all sorts of > different professions are going to accommodate us at their own expence? Because you want the XML data to be meaningful. If you want meaningful data, you need to let users see, work with, and focus on structure. WYSIWYG doesn't give you that. > I'm not saying that it's the right way to go in all cases, just that I'm > sick of having people ask if they can author in Word and me telling them > they have to use MultiEdit or Emacs. > They don't want to hear it and I don't want to say it. Well, don't tell them then. Give them an XML format with , and tags hooked up, congratulate them on being XML-aware, and receive a pat on the back. > There is a strong correlation between what a document looks like on > paper and what it is - as paper publishing is still inevitable in > some industries, they are often nearly the same thing. I'd say the most important lesson from SGML and XML is that they are *not* the same thing. I've on occassion done some support for people using word processors for writing HTML pages. They tend to be rather annoyed if I complain about various issues, from mulitmegabyte bitmaps to using obscure fonts and extreme hard coded table sizes to downright illegal HTML. The response is always that it looks all right on their screen, so it must be my software that is doing something wrong. > Wunderbar! Although I get a reading on my sarcasm-o-matic, I must say I'm pretty happy with it, yes. > And you get valid HTML out the other side, you say? Of course, what else would be the point? > Have you tried modifying it for DocBook? I have written DocBook documents with it, yes, although I haven't bothered to modify it for that purpose. Why would I want to do that - except adding an initial template document, which is rather trivial? (Thinking about it, I guess I could modify it to display e.g. heading contents in a larger font, or italicize emphasized elements the way it does for HTML, but I haven't really bothered, since a) it's not really a big deal, and b) I don't use DocBook on a regular basis, and anyway, I bet somebody, somewhere already have done that) > I find it interesting that you are looking for an application that will help > you create good data, but apparently begrudge others the same thing. No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that pretending the structure is automatic and derived from formatting information is bogus, void and in error. If you want "good data", you need to educate users about structure. Yes, I know this is hard and unrealistic. It is still the right thing. > Your preferred interface involves the use of raw tags; You don't *have* to display tags as characters, of course, but most editors I've looked at, only puts some kind of fancy box or similar instead. No real improvement, IMHO, but whatever floats your boat. > It doesn't have to be ugly to create correct data. Of course not. > They always understand what you're trying to achieve, they just want > it to be easy for them to use. Yes. But my knee-jerk reaction was to the idea that word processors - in particular MS Word, but the point would be the same for any layout - and formatting-oriented interface - are ideal for producing XML. I maintain that they are too complex to be easy to use, and their complexity drawing focusing away from what's important if structure is what you want. Look, Word can't even enforce the use of styles, I've waded in documents where somebody took a lot of effort to set up the .dot files, only to find users are just inserting formatting information instead. The point is that Word makes it easy to do just that, and that is precisely the kind of thing you want to avoid. >> Of *course* you should require validity. > You're mixing up what I'm saying - well-formedness doesn't equate to format > oriented documents and the subject still says "XML Editors". But well-formedenss is kind of easy to get away with - in any format - even if many tools for e.g. HTML authoring doesn't even manage that. Personally, I think DTD-less XML document design is an abomination (although I see the point of being able to parse documents without access to the DTD) > I'm saying that validity allows you to guide the user by restricting > the available elements whereas well-formed doesn't. Yes, and that guiding is a good reason to use XML. Much better than buzzword compliance, for instance. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Tue Jun 29 10:30:05 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853230246@SENMAIL3> I have had a look at a few editors now. One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in them is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to insert your text. To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, but feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). What other methods do/are XML editors using to make it very much easier for users. I imagine some intelligent package which knew where you were in a particular document and, working with a DTD, could provide you with a list of possible tags which could be applied and relevent attributes (if these apply). Of course the DTD would have to be provided as a template for the user (as would any style sheets). I expect (hope) that this would allow Content Providers to type as they normally would, but give them the power of XML - of course users would have to think as they typed (rather than the current 86,000 w.p.m that they do now). Is such a things available yet or in the pipleline? steven Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcus Carr [SMTP:mrc@allette.com.au] > Sent: 29 June 1999 00:57 > To: Ketil Z Malde > Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > > > Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > > > People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > > > working with the structure, > > > > So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? > > Wow, you are grumpy. Do I really need to rephrase that sentence? > > > If you insist that people bright enough to work with legislation are > > too stupid to grok the simple context of tags, I would suggest you > > underestimate them. Of course they won't understand it if you do your > > best to hide structure behind formatting. > > It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of focus. If you're > paying > a lot of money to obtain someone's expertise about the law, it's not > practical (and may even be financially foolish) to pay them to fiddle > around > with tags. What would you say to the legal expert who said that anyone > smart > enough to understand XML tagging should be capable of writing legislation? > Why do we assume that just because we have a need for XML data, all sorts > of > different professions are going to accommodate us at their own expence? > > > My experiences with those tools are kind of mediocre - that could of > > course be due to being exposed to SGML first, and the tools later. > > The problem is that the tools focus on the wrong end of the problem - > > how the document looks when printed on paper - instead of on what the > > document *is*. > > I'm not saying that it's the right way to go in all cases, just that I'm > sick of having people ask if they can author in Word and me telling them > they have to use MultiEdit or Emacs. They don't want to hear it and I > don't > want to say it. There is a strong correlation between what a document > looks > like on paper and what it is - as paper publishing is still inevitable in > some industries, they are often nearly the same thing. It won't work > maintaining that I've been suckered by applications - my experience in > SGML > predates any WYSIWYG tools by many years and even now I use MultiEdit over > any application. Years of banging my head against the wall have cured me > of > the urge to persist with that as a solution for clients (and left me with > a > near-constant ringing in my ears...) > > > Actually, forms for entering database records is much closer to what > > I'd like for SGML input. I like XEmacs and the psgml-based html-mode; > > on loading a document with the .html extension, the user is prompted > > for a title, and presented with a buffer containing a rough framework > > of an HTML document, something like > > > > > > > > > > your title here > > > > > >

    your title here

    > > (some empty lines) > >
    > > (some signature stuff, last change and a mailto: link) > > > > > > > > You don't have to be a genius to work that one out. And this is > > considered difficult and obscure. If somebody is remotely familiar > > with the editor, it's about three minutes to explain where to put what > > information, and why, and off you go - and the built in parser > > restricts you to the valid elements and attributes at any point in the > > document. > > Wunderbar! And you get valid HTML out the other side, you say? Have you > tried modifying it for DocBook? Ironically, FrameMaker+SGML will allow you > to edit your data in a visual tree-based interface, though I don't think > much of it personally. > > I find it interesting that you are looking for an application that will > help > you create good data, but apparently begrudge others the same thing. Your > preferred interface involves the use of raw tags; I'm maintaining that > some > others may want even more help. I use MultiEdit - by your logic, I should > be > running you down for looking for a guided syntax editor. It doesn't have > to > be ugly to create correct data. > > > The point is that if all you see is italics vs. normal, and you know > > about a button which gives you italics, then that button is what > > you're going to press. Sure, people may mistake the meaning of tags, > > but they are a) restricted in what context they may appear, and b) > > labeled with (hopefully something more meaningful than typographical > > information, and c) supplied with a helpful comment in the DTD, which > > the editor can display. > > I think you're considering users in too narrow a band - they aren't all > bereft of any understanding about structure. They always understand what > you're trying to achieve, they just want it to be easy for them to use. An > application is an interface to the structure that doesn't interfere with > the > content. An application designer is the one that tries to ensure that both > objectives are satisfied. > > > > There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, > > > but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over > > > well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the > > > analysis. > > > > Of *course* you should require validity. What else would be the point > > of using SGML? If you want formatting oriented documents with > > no guarantee of correctness, it's not hard to find. > > You're mixing up what I'm saying - well-formedness doesn't equate to > format > oriented documents and the subject still says "XML Editors". I'm saying > that > validity allows you to guide the user by restricting the available > elements > whereas well-formed doesn't. > > > -- > Regards, > > Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au > ___________________________________________________________________ > Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au > ___________________________________________________________________ > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > - Einstein > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue Jun 29 10:50:12 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: DDML Section 2.3.7: Nested SEQs within SEQ Message-ID: <01BEC21D.1BE00960@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Amit Rekhi wrote: > I was going thru Section 2.3.7 of the DDML spec and > could not understand why the content model for 'Seq' > > > could not contain nested Seqs . > for eg. > Acc. to the above content model if > I had an element decl like: > The DDML equivalent would be : > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why is something like the following > DDML representation not allowed > (minus the nested )? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a good question and unrelated to the use of Model -- I looked at the oldest version of the DDML DTD that I have and it does not allow Seq to be nested inside Seq. Our original thinking was that we didn't feel the need to represent cases such as: since this resolves to: However, this doesn't take into account the case you show. My best guess is that we simply didn't think of it. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Tue Jun 29 11:02:45 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A1A00@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM > > I have had a look at a few editors now. > > One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in > them > is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to > insert your text. > > To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, > but > feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they > don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). > > What other methods do/are XML editors using to make it very much easier > for > users. I imagine some intelligent package which knew where you were in a > particular document and, working with a DTD, could provide you with a list > of possible tags which could be applied and relevent attributes (if these > apply). Of course the DTD would have to be provided as a template for the > user (as would any style sheets). > > What would constitute my perfect XML editor would be an extension of the ideas/base provided by XED. It's a really simple text editor, following the CUA key guidlines (no learning emacs keystrokes, or hacking lisp to reconfigure all your keys!). When you type "<" it assumes you're entering a tag (unless you hit "<" again, in which case it types < for you), and provides a drop down list of optional tags, as you type the first letters in the tag it uses that abbreviation to minimise the list of possibles, until you're happy with the tag (either by selecting from the menu, or typing ">", or starting to fill in attributes). Currently XED doesn't use a DTD, but if it did I think it would be a killer editor. For XML proffesionals anyway - maybe not for first time users. But after a few goes I think anyone could easily get the hang of using this. I'm thinking of coding something simple like this in Perl/Tk (I know people would probably prefer Java, but it won't come from me), so if anyone's interested in this sort of thing, available under the GNU GPL, let me know, and we'll see if maybe we can collaborate. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Tue Jun 29 11:27:50 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM"'s message of "Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:26:48 +0100" References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853230246@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" writes: > One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in them > is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to > insert your text. Well, since you include my latest rant, you probably know that I view that as a feature :-) > To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, but > feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they > don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). What criteria do they suggest? > I imagine some intelligent package which knew where you were in a > particular document and, working with a DTD, could provide you with a list > of possible tags which could be applied and relevent attributes While I'd hesitate to recommend something as complex as XEmacs to somebody not familiar with it or another Emacs-derivative, I'll describe briefly how it works in psgml-mode. Psgml is rather daunting, it handles a lot of sgml-declaration stuff, and it does folding, cursor movement based on document structure, etc. You really only need to have a couple of commands to get started, though: + Insert element (either placing the cursor within it, or enclosing a marked region, and of course with completion of valid elements, insertion of required subelements, prompting for required attribute values, etc etc) + Finding trouble spots (i.e. places where validation fails) And, if you juggle DTD's, + Rereading the DTD (actually, reading and parsing the prolog) The rest of it can be dug out of the online help. :-) I think that what I miss most is automatic display of comments in element declarations in the DTD in the completion listings. I.e. I want to insert an element, type TAB to list completions, and get the list - but I would like to see comments as well. In particular, the HTML DTDs seem nicely commented, and I think I've seen this kind of support in commercial editors (Adept?). Obviously, I don't miss it enough to implement it :-) > Of course the DTD would have to be provided as a template for the > user (as would any style sheets). Yeah, some form of style sheets would be nice. Writing them is a lot of work, however, and a rendering engine would be even harder. HTML-mode is derived from psgml-mode, and has a few style issues hardwired into it, but while that works nicely for HTML, it isn't a good, general solution. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Tue Jun 29 11:39:55 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Tue Jun 29 11:40:08 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: who xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Tue Jun 29 11:55:53 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853230246@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: <37789A86.6B81F1DB@freenet.co.uk> I don't see why a user entering data into an XML document (leave aside editing the DTD for now) should need to be aware of the syntax of tags at all. Many document aplications including spreadsheets, wordprocessors, databases and even file browsers have some sort of outlining mode or tree view which could be fairly easily extended to automatically (from the DTD) provide a choice of allowable tags and attributes to be associated at each outlining level. There are some questions with complicated content models over how much on-the fly validation can be done and how much needs to be deferred but the rest would be straightforward and the user interface could be fairly intuitive to a lot of people who have no concept of what XML means. Another model more familiar to database type applications would involve entering data into forms which change dynamically to reflect the choices already entered. I could also envisage visual techniques which would create or modify a DTD similar to those used in many database applications for creating database structures and layouts. Finally for those using XML purely as "HTML mkII" the same sort of web authoring tools remain. As XML documents move into the mainstream I am sure these programs will emerge. However, just as you can create a table in a wordprocessor or in a spreadsheet or in a database and probably save them all in DBF format, I would think that the idea of a generic XML editor will fade as the format/language moves away from computer professionals to wider adoption. Why expect one tool to handle the whole range of uses for XML? Philip Nye Engineering Arts electronics consultants "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" wrote: > > I have had a look at a few editors now. > > One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in them > is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to > insert your text. > > To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, but > feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they > don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). > > What other methods do/are XML editors using to make it very much easier for > users. I imagine some intelligent package which knew where you were in a > particular document and, working with a DTD, could provide you with a list > of possible tags which could be applied and relevent attributes (if these > apply). Of course the DTD would have to be provided as a template for the > user (as would any style sheets). > > I expect (hope) that this would allow Content Providers to type as they > normally would, but give them the power of XML - of course users would have > to think as they typed (rather than the current 86,000 w.p.m that they do > now). > > Is such a things available yet or in the pipleline? > > steven > > Steven Livingstone > President, AIP Scotland. > ceo@citix.com > http://www.citix.com > > Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Marcus Carr [SMTP:mrc@allette.com.au] > > Sent: 29 June 1999 00:57 > > To: Ketil Z Malde > > Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > Subject: Re: XML Editors - Word 2000?? > > > > > > Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > > > > > People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not > > > > working with the structure, > > > > > > So they don't know about paragraphs, or references I take it? > > > > Wow, you are grumpy. Do I really need to rephrase that sentence? > > > > > If you insist that people bright enough to work with legislation are > > > too stupid to grok the simple context of tags, I would suggest you > > > underestimate them. Of course they won't understand it if you do your > > > best to hide structure behind formatting. > > > > It's not a matter of intelligence, it's a matter of focus. If you're > > paying > > a lot of money to obtain someone's expertise about the law, it's not > > practical (and may even be financially foolish) to pay them to fiddle > > around > > with tags. What would you say to the legal expert who said that anyone > > smart > > enough to understand XML tagging should be capable of writing legislation? > > Why do we assume that just because we have a need for XML data, all sorts > > of > > different professions are going to accommodate us at their own expence? > > > > > My experiences with those tools are kind of mediocre - that could of > > > course be due to being exposed to SGML first, and the tools later. > > > The problem is that the tools focus on the wrong end of the problem - > > > how the document looks when printed on paper - instead of on what the > > > document *is*. > > > > I'm not saying that it's the right way to go in all cases, just that I'm > > sick of having people ask if they can author in Word and me telling them > > they have to use MultiEdit or Emacs. They don't want to hear it and I > > don't > > want to say it. There is a strong correlation between what a document > > looks > > like on paper and what it is - as paper publishing is still inevitable in > > some industries, they are often nearly the same thing. It won't work > > maintaining that I've been suckered by applications - my experience in > > SGML > > predates any WYSIWYG tools by many years and even now I use MultiEdit over > > any application. Years of banging my head against the wall have cured me > > of > > the urge to persist with that as a solution for clients (and left me with > > a > > near-constant ringing in my ears...) > > > > > Actually, forms for entering database records is much closer to what > > > I'd like for SGML input. I like XEmacs and the psgml-based html-mode; > > > on loading a document with the .html extension, the user is prompted > > > for a title, and presented with a buffer containing a rough framework > > > of an HTML document, something like > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > your title here > > > > > > > > >

    your title here

    > > > (some empty lines) > > >
    > > > (some signature stuff, last change and a mailto: link) > > > > > > > > > > > > You don't have to be a genius to work that one out. And this is > > > considered difficult and obscure. If somebody is remotely familiar > > > with the editor, it's about three minutes to explain where to put what > > > information, and why, and off you go - and the built in parser > > > restricts you to the valid elements and attributes at any point in the > > > document. > > > > Wunderbar! And you get valid HTML out the other side, you say? Have you > > tried modifying it for DocBook? Ironically, FrameMaker+SGML will allow you > > to edit your data in a visual tree-based interface, though I don't think > > much of it personally. > > > > I find it interesting that you are looking for an application that will > > help > > you create good data, but apparently begrudge others the same thing. Your > > preferred interface involves the use of raw tags; I'm maintaining that > > some > > others may want even more help. I use MultiEdit - by your logic, I should > > be > > running you down for looking for a guided syntax editor. It doesn't have > > to > > be ugly to create correct data. > > > > > The point is that if all you see is italics vs. normal, and you know > > > about a button which gives you italics, then that button is what > > > you're going to press. Sure, people may mistake the meaning of tags, > > > but they are a) restricted in what context they may appear, and b) > > > labeled with (hopefully something more meaningful than typographical > > > information, and c) supplied with a helpful comment in the DTD, which > > > the editor can display. > > > > I think you're considering users in too narrow a band - they aren't all > > bereft of any understanding about structure. They always understand what > > you're trying to achieve, they just want it to be easy for them to use. An > > application is an interface to the structure that doesn't interfere with > > the > > content. An application designer is the one that tries to ensure that both > > objectives are satisfied. > > > > > > There aren't that many ways of assisting users with element usage, > > > > but one of the main ones might be requiring validity over > > > > well-formedness at the authoring stage and do a good job of the > > > > analysis. > > > > > > Of *course* you should require validity. What else would be the point > > > of using SGML? If you want formatting oriented documents with > > > no guarantee of correctness, it's not hard to find. > > > > You're mixing up what I'm saying - well-formedness doesn't equate to > > format > > oriented documents and the subject still says "XML Editors". I'm saying > > that > > validity allows you to guide the user by restricting the available > > elements > > whereas well-formed doesn't. > > > > > > -- > > Regards, > > > > Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au > > ___________________________________________________________________ > > "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." > > - Einstein > > > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > > (un)subscribe xml-dev > > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > > message; > > subscribe xml-dev-digest > > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nicholas_hui at yahoo.com Tue Jun 29 12:54:55 1999 From: nicholas_hui at yahoo.com (Nicholas Hui) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: unsubscrible xml-dev Digest Message-ID: <19990629105639.24304.rocketmail@web802.mail.yahoo.com> unsubscrible xml-dev Digest _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Tue Jun 29 14:33:00 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> Message-ID: At 11:25 +0200 29/6/99, Ketil Z Malde wrote: >No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that pretending the >structure is automatic and derived from formatting information is >bogus, void and in error. If you want "good data", you need to >educate users about structure. Yes, I know this is hard and >unrealistic. It is still the right thing. Or you have a corporate filter which rejects "bad" documents. >Look, Word can't even enforce the use of styles, I've waded in >documents where somebody took a lot of effort to set up the .dot >files, only to find users are just inserting formatting information >instead. I'm reminded of a project we did last year, processing Word files to create an online contract writing tool. This was for a government organisation producing about 2 contracts/day. Users filled in a page of basic contract details and then selected clauses that would apply. The tool generated an HTML preview online and an RTF final copy. It parsed HTML and RTF generated by Word into appropriate fragments (maintained in parallel) so relied heavily on documents conforming to the structure designed by the contracts manager. The decision which made the project work very well was to enforce the structure using a macro which ran in Word and attempted to clean up documents (eg: incorrect multiple paragraphs in tables) but highlighted invalid sections. The combination of minor assistance with validation worked very well. The only user complaint came when they found that our system worked so well only because of the tight rules, and couldn't be easily generalised. Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mlamb at roinet.com Tue Jun 29 15:26:36 1999 From: mlamb at roinet.com (mlamb@roinet.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors Message-ID: <8525679F.00481CC4.00@roinet.com> While we're on the subject of editors for non-XML-experts, I thought I'd float this out. Has any work been done on a standard for commenting DTDs a la javadoc? That is to say, is there a standard ("official" or de facto) for commenting DTDs and associating the comments with particular components of the DTD? This would be of immense value as a means of providing the non-XML-expert users with context-sensitive help regarding not just _what_ tags are available, but _why_. This would have the additional benefit of providing the same help information regardless of the editor chosen by the user. If any work has been done on this, or if I've missed a discussion that has already taken place, I'd appreciate any info. - Marty xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue Jun 29 17:12:15 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: XML Editors In-Reply-To: <8525679F.00481CC4.00@roinet.com> References: <8525679F.00481CC4.00@roinet.com> Message-ID: * mlamb@roinet.com | | While we're on the subject of editors for non-XML-experts, I thought | I'd float this out. Has any work been done on a standard for | commenting DTDs a la javadoc? I know of no standards in this area, although I have a Python application that will document a DTD. A first draft of a version that uses an XML document to add comments to the DTD has also been written, but nothing further has been done so far. Once I finish my thesis I plan to complete this, at least to the point where it's useful to me. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 17:40:54 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:35 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <000001bec1c4$9f4c96a0$0babfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <3778CD82.EA8082D@prescod.net> Don Park wrote: > > If following two conditions are met, there is no need to mess with > validation on PalmPilot: > > 1. Palm applications produce 'valid' XML documents. >... > #1 condition can be met through a PalmPilot software certification process, > probably by 3Com. Certification really only tests whether an appliction produces valid XML in a particular situation. If 3COM is going to get "into" XML they might as well embed a validating parser into the ROM. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 17:49:48 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853230246@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: <3778CEBF.580A1A9B@prescod.net> "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" wrote: > > I have had a look at a few editors now. > > One thing that (at least the ones I have looked at so for) is common in them > is the XMl Notepad look - i.e. A line with a couple of tags and space to > insert your text. > > To me it seems that this is pretty much the only way you could do this, but > feedback I have had from people not knowledgeble about XML is that they > don't consider them serious editors (although I happily work with them). Well I'm fairly knowledgable about XML and I don't consider this sort of editor to be serious either. Download a demo of Documentor. It isn't anything like that at all. Neither are AdeptEditor nor XMetaL (no free demos AFAIK). > What other methods do/are XML editors using to make it very much easier for > users. I imagine some intelligent package which ... > > Is such a things available yet or in the pipleline? Yes, such tools were available years before XML even existed (for SGML of course). -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 18:05:31 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <3778D1CC.225B5BE7@prescod.net> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > > I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't > exist by covering it under formatting issues. No one advocates pretending that structure doesn't exist. The question is whether to *indicate* the structure through formatting, as one does in browsers, or through tags, as one does in a text file. Neither answer is always right but a tool (like Emacs or XML Notepad) that doesn't give you the choice is clearly not a serious contender. > I've on occassion done some support for people using word processors > for writing HTML pages. They tend to be rather annoyed if I complain > about various issues, from mulitmegabyte bitmaps to using obscure > fonts and extreme hard coded table sizes to downright illegal HTML. > The response is always that it looks all right on their screen, so it > must be my software that is doing something wrong. Exactly. That's why you need a tool that only allows it to "look right on the screen" if it *is* right. That's why an XML editing environment requires massive customization. > > They always understand what you're trying to achieve, they just want > > it to be easy for them to use. > > Yes. But my knee-jerk reaction was to the idea that word processors > - in particular MS Word, but the point would be the same for any > layout - and formatting-oriented interface - are ideal for producing > XML. I dont' think anyone has said that in this thread. People want an interface that *is as easy to use* as MSWord. They also want one that is intuitive. Using the paper metaphor as a guide is intuitive. You acknowledge this yourself: > Thinking about it, I guess I could modify it to display e.g. heading > contents in a larger font, or italicize emphasized elements the way it > does for HTML, ... I think that you and Marcus are in violent agreement. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Those who profess to favor freedom and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the roar of its many waters. - Fredrick Douglass http://www.informamerica.com/Articles/Quotes.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue Jun 29 18:49:32 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <3778CD82.EA8082D@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000001bec24f$c853e9a0$0babfea9@w21tp> > Certification really only tests whether an appliction > produces valid XML > in a particular situation. If 3COM is going to get "into" XML > they might > as well embed a validating parser into the ROM. What about the new XML Schema spec (which raises the complexity quite a bit over DTD) in the pipeline? Has anyone eyeballed the likely size of the parser for new XML Schema? As far as certification process goes, it is fairly straight forward (at least for Java) to write a harness that analysize the code (XLint?) to make sure it generates valid XML. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue Jun 29 19:46:04 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: DDML Section 2.3.7: Nested SEQs within SEQ In-Reply-To: <01BEC21D.1BE00960@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> from "Ronald Bourret" at Jun 29, 99 10:49:47 am Message-ID: <199906291812.OAA00528@locke.ccil.org> Ronald Bourret scripsit: > However, this doesn't take into account the case you show. My best guess is > that we simply didn't think of it. I second that. We didn't think of it. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 29 20:32:59 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990628163535.013bbe40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990628163535.013bbe40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14201.3857.534724.913338@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > I disagree. We went through this quite a bit in the XML Syntax > Working Group. It is absolutely *not* the case that DTD parsing is > demonstrably very expensive. It added only a tiny handful of private methods to AElfred (which is a recursive-descent parser). Tim's Lark is, a think, a finite state machine, so I'll take his word for it that there was no significant bloat there either. -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue Jun 29 20:32:17 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: Validation and Parser Bloat (was: Re: parsers for Palm?) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990628151549.012c6c30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990628151549.012c6c30@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14201.3673.714307.759092@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > Distinguish between and validation. I do *not* agree > that parsing DTD syntax takes up 2/3 of a parser. On the other hand, > it's reasonable to expect a validating parser to be twice the size > of a non-validating one. Note that nearly all the existing > validating parsers parse DTD syntax just fine. -T. >From my hazy recollection, parsing everything inside added about 10% to AElfred's size, and that included keeping information from the declarations (but not validation per se). The biggest size bloat -- at least 30% -- came from having to work around inefficient Java library classes by adding custom buffering and hash-table routines. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Tue Jun 29 20:48:04 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: DOM Support in XP Parser Message-ID: <19990629183300.12906.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Hi, Does XP Parser support DOM Model? CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue Jun 29 20:54:35 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? References: <000001bec24f$c853e9a0$0babfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <3778F493.66D8AFBF@prescod.net> Don Park wrote: > > As far as certification process goes, it is fairly straight forward (at > least for Java) to write a harness that analysize the code (XLint?) to make > sure it generates valid XML. Insofar as it is not straight forward to solve the halting problem, I beg to differ. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "The new revolutionaries believe the time has come for an aggressive move against our oppressors. We have established a solid beachhead on Friday. We now intend to fight vigorously for 'casual Thursdays.' -- who says America's revolutionary spirit is dead? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue Jun 29 21:34:33 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: DOM Support in XP Parser In-Reply-To: <19990629183300.12906.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> References: <19990629183300.12906.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: * Mallikarjuna Sangappa | | Does XP Parser support DOM Model? It does not. XP is a purely event-driven parser. However, DOM implementations can be mounted on top of XP. provides a list of DOM implementations. If you want a list of Java XML parsers that implement the DOM see --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From fischer17 at llnl.gov Tue Jun 29 23:30:34 1999 From: fischer17 at llnl.gov (Aaron Fischer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: escape character for carriage-return?? In-Reply-To: <199906291852.OAA20089@mulberrytech.com> Message-ID: <199906292132.OAA12711@poptop.llnl.gov> This is a very basic question, and yet the XML 1.0 specs themself did not afford me an answer. What escape character do I use to generate a carriage-return / end-of-line in my XSL transformation documents? The specs said #xD or #xA would work, but they didn't. Thanks, Aaron xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Wed Jun 30 00:56:51 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: DTD Documentation (was: XML Editors) Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F277A62@MDYNYCMSX1> >That is to say, is there a standard ("official" or de facto) for commenting >DTDs and associating the comments with particular components >of the DTD? This is one of the key improvements over XML 1.0 DTDs that various schema proposals have suggested. The 6-May-1999 draft of the W3C Schema Working Group identifies the need for structured DTD documentation as something they need to work on, although they have not yet tackled it. (See http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#doc for their exact wording.) Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 30 01:43:36 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <3777E1AC.3201ADB@pacbell.net> References: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401679C21@martinique> <3777DA38.B4F1C227@webeasy.com> Message-ID: <199906292345.TAA24470@hesketh.net> At 01:57 PM 6/28/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >Speaking of parsers, and perhaps committing a brand of sacrilege >here (almost certainly so from the SGML side of the world) ... > >... what do folk think of using the following XML subset: > > Everything in XML, except the support > which takes up something like 2/3 of most parsers. > >Clearly that'd be subset for which validation doesn't apply; >all data integrity would be provided by higher levels. > >BUT -- it'd be a subset that'd work nicely with all conformant >XML parsers (validating and non), it'd support namespaces and >all the schema proposals I last heard of, and there should be >no issue of size for most environments. I can think of two ways to do this, each of which might be appropriate in a different situation. (Both could read the same profile of XML with no problems as well.) 1) A 'parser' that just reads the document and spits out events without attempting to interpret them. It might be smart enough to identify document parts (like DOCTYPE, or identifying &entity; as an entity), but wouldn't check the structure at all. It would just read with no concern for the structure of what it read. 2) A parser that only read a canonical form of XML, 100% normalized, with no DOCTYPE information to create entities or specify defaults. Both are interesting projects. 1 would let higher levels of the app fill in the gaps, while 2 would be more limiting, though 2 might feel more in the spirit of XML. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Wed Jun 30 02:08:33 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> Message-ID: <37796087.E15DA318@allette.com.au> Yes, the company that I work for sells FrameMaker+SGML, but I have no connection with product sales. I design and implement data collection, storage and publishing solutions. Ketil Z Malde wrote: > Perhaps I misunderstood. What are they working with, and why is a > WYSIWYG environment focusing on fonts and colors, better than one > displaying the document structure? There is always a danger that when any group of people with a similar interest discuss that topic extensively, they start to create a perspective that looks ridiculous to outsiders. Your sentence seems to imply that prior to SGML and XML, there was no structure to documents. All XML does is formalise the structure, not create it - structure in documents predates XML by many thousands of years. Technical writers are at least one group who would be very disappointed to be told that their documents consisted of "fonts and colors" (and of course the words). > I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't > exist by covering it under formatting issues. The user doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist - they still select elements and assign attribute values. If you would prefer to dispense with all those fonts and colors, you could design a stylesheet that left all the text as Courier and invoke the View-->Element Boundaries as Tags option and presto - it would be exactly the guided syntax editor (GSE) you seem to desire. Tables are a great example of where you should use a WYSIWYG application. Have you marked up many CALS tables? Even the most hardened vi pilot could see the sense in doing a complex table with extensive vertical and horizontal spanning in something other than a GSE. > I would say that while I agree that the world would be a better place > if lawyers were replaced by those understanding XML, writing of > legislation is a highly specific, complicated process, while tags are > a really simple concept. They are overhead. They simplify your life at the expense of complicating someone elses. You can't pretend that away. > Well, don't tell them then. Give them an XML format with , and > tags hooked up, congratulate them on being XML-aware, and receive > a pat on the back. The pat on the back would likely be exploratory, perhaps seeking a spot between two ribs. > No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that pretending the > structure is automatic and derived from formatting information is > bogus, void and in error. If you want "good data", you need to > educate users about structure. Yes, I know this is hard and > unrealistic. It is still the right thing. I'm getting the slightly uneasy feeling that you may not have spent as much time looking at these applications as I thought you had. You do realise that these documents accept a DTD (albeit compiled to an internal format) and that the users are conscious that they're creating structured documents, don't you? They understand structured documents - remember, structured documents predate XML. The DTD has been designed to accommodate the data that they're creating. Along the way it might seek to enforce what the authors have decided is good practice, but in essence XML is the scaffolding - the data is the building. -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Jun 30 08:07:13 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: X-Schema Message-ID: <006501bec2b7$2977bfb0$2ef96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Paul Prescod >This is true. You've helped me to realize that I don't dislike >instance-syntax schemas -- I dislike instance-syntax content models. There >is no reason to reinvent regular expressions in XML element syntax. Surely we cannot judge syntaxes independently of usage scenarios! There may be different optimal syntaxes for * data-entry of content models * data-transmission of content models * document of content models * creating user interfaces for interactive editors using a schema, etc. I certainly like entering content models using XML-style content models. But I also like viewing content models as collapasable tree (you can do this using my DTD2DDML converter and IE5 default stylesheet). My complaints about using instance syntax have always been the verbosity question: it is rediculous if the size of a schema dwarfs the size of the transmitted documents (for use by general applications): a silly step backwards. This is why I think the best model for XML Schemas is that they will be used as master files from which smart forms (for data entry) and DTDs (for content model validation) and XSL (for other kinds of validation) can be automatically generated. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Jun 30 08:37:28 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? Message-ID: <009c01bec2bb$4fa8fba0$2ef96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Simon St.Laurent >Nope! 23K is really what I was hoping for. 50K seemed like the ceiling, >10K seemed like too much to hope for. I'll definitely take a look. Our toy XXX (eXperimental XML leXer) is being written (in C) to try out an idea for smaller parsers for PDAs. http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/xxxlex.html The basic idea is that perhaps the way to make a smaller footprint is to make a generic lexer that is good enough to handle XML, HTML, DTDs, CSS, URIs and JavaScript. We make a state machine where all state/transition behaviour is parameterized into tables or transitions and callbacks. Similarly, if we have a generic lexer, it makes sense to also have a generic regular-expression validator and a generic uniqueness validator. These three components together seem to be enough to handle most of what is required. Rather than having an XML parser that fits into 23K, what about an WBXML/HTML/XML/DTD/CSS/JavaScript/URI/ISO 8601 parser that fits into 50K? (Well, I don't know what a good estimate is: perhaps 50K to 10K, depending on how big a generic regex validator is.) Comments welcome. Rick Jelliffe Academia Sinica Computing Centre xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ketil at ii.uib.no Wed Jun 30 09:08:49 1999 From: ketil at ii.uib.no (Ketil Z Malde) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:36 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? In-Reply-To: Paul Prescod's message of "Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:01:48 -0400" References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> <3778D1CC.225B5BE7@prescod.net> Message-ID: Paul Prescod writes: >> I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't >> exist by covering it under formatting issues. > No one advocates pretending that structure doesn't exist. Hopefully not here. I have seen the way people write HTML, though. The "it works for me" mentality is pretty hard to get rid of. > Exactly. That's why you need a tool that only allows it to "look right on > the screen" if it *is* right. Umm, yes. It also requires that the DTD is strictly designed, cf. HTML. > That's why an XML editing environment requires massive > customization. Perhaps the reason I don't miss a more GUIed environment is the overhead. I like to be able to quickly throw together a DTD and type up documents, script to them in e.g. Python and SAX, and in general get onwards. Massive customization with style sheets is affordable, I suppose, if you're putting together a project in the "Billion Dollar" cathegory. > People want an interface that *is as easy to use* as MSWord. Well, I don't really find Word all that easy to use, but that's a side point. IME, people ask for Word to be protected from seeing too much structure. Which is what I think is a mistake. > I think that you and Marcus are in violent agreement. Well, yes, I started to get that impression too, but who am I to let that stop me? * * * Turning to Marcus, who said in a previous posting that: >>> People who are drafting XML documents such as legislation are not >>> working with the structure, And I replied: >> I maintain it is much better than pretending the structure doesn't >> exist by covering it under formatting issues. And now you say: > The user doesn't pretend that it doesn't exist - they still select elements and > assign attribute values. So they *do* work with the structure, after all. Explicitly. > I'm getting the slightly uneasy feeling that you may not have spent > as much time looking at these applications as I thought you had. You > do realise that these documents accept a DTD (albeit compiled to an > internal format) and that the users are conscious that they're > creating structured documents, don't you? Umm...we're not discussing MS Word any more, are we? I've not worked extensively with commercial SGML editors, and mostly Adept which seems to fit your description pretty well. It's been a while, though. I have no quarrel with the way Adept works, IIRC, it displays elements with little colored boxes labeled "tag" instead of ""s embedded in the text, which is probably important to somebody. You get to browse the structure, and apply style sheets, which is nice. -kzm -- If I haven't seen further, it is by standing in the footprints of giants xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From om at lgsi.co.in Wed Jun 30 09:18:50 1999 From: om at lgsi.co.in (Om Band) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: WYSIWYG..?? Message-ID: <008901bec2c6$fe58d3e0$3601a8c0@lgsi.co.in> Hi All, We are trying to develop a XML Wizard with some standard templates (Like MS PowerPoint). Default view will be something which we will give...The user can replace the existing text with his own one, change colors...fonts but not the basic layout. We can't do this in browser, as we can't change the text at run time. Can Java do this with WYSIWYG manner? Can Java Project X help me? If I replicate the same XML in Java Frame or Applet, the problem is both XML's and Java's layouts are not precisely controllable. Thanks..Om -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990630/bde9a794/attachment.htm From ricko at allette.com.au Wed Jun 30 10:10:02 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? Message-ID: <010101bec2c8$36249f10$2ef96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> On the subject of XML editors: * FrameMaker+SGML is excellent, but a big job to set up for complete structured editing. * EditTime is a very fast editor that is pretty simple to set up, aimed at programmers. * I have not tried Epic, but Adept editor has nice data entry. >Paul Prescod writes: >> No one advocates pretending that structure doesn't exist. Not to be contrarian, but I would love an XML editor that hid structure from me. Just like a coloured map, it would be great if all inline elements were associated with a font or style, and that I could use the style menus to drill down to the allowed generic elements in context. For some people, I think visual operation is stronger than conceptual operation; for markup languages it means that even though I may start editing a document using thoughts about the structure, when I become familiar with the editor I may be better switching over to using visual cues (and to using keyboard rhythms). My final goal may be "insert a particular element", but my proximate goal shortcuts itself to "insert something that looks the same as other instances of that element". Anyone who has used FrameMaker+SGML or some of the other structure-based editors knows that when a content model has many choice items, scrolling menus are tedious. Furthermore, it is difficult to keep track of many choices mentally anyway. So I think a good user interface for an editor would also allow specify elements by reverse tracing through the stylesheet: you know you want to insert an element that is rendered italic & bold by the current stylesheet, so you select menu Style>Italic>Bold> and it would present you a choice of any element types in the current context whose stylesheet matches that description. I wonder if this would involve less mental effort on entry-operators especially when there are content models with many choices: it reduces the number of names they have to recognise in order to make the desired choice, potentially to a single choice. Presumably the same HCI rule (maximum of seven choices at any level) that operates on names would also operated on styles, so there would also be a maximum of 7 style qualities at any level that the operator would have to look through. On a similar vein, one good thing that having named content models in XML Schemas is that they can allow hierarchical menus for selecting elements. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From amitr at abinfosys.com Wed Jun 30 13:24:56 1999 From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Using grammars to generate XML data Message-ID: <008101bec2eb$16444ab0$0c01a8c0@abiwebserver> Hello, PROBLEM STATEMENT Traditionally, an XML grammar (something like what's defined in the spec) is used by parsers to check the syntax of input XML files for conformance to XML. My problem: - Is it proper usage of an XML grammar to be used by XML data generators to generate XMLised data?i.e I am wanting to use an XML grammar not to validate XML data but to generate XMLised data conforming to that grammar. Is it logical, proper to be using an XML grammar for driving a XMLised data generator application? - If yes, how would such a XML data generator implement the production rules and use them to generate XMLised data? Let me explain my point with an example. Let's say I have the following XML grammar: [1] Document := '' (Element)+ '' [2] Element := '' CharData '' [3] CharData := [^<&]* - ([^<&]* ']]>' [^<&]*) Let's say I wish to build an XMLised data generator which would take the following input stream: 'abc' and produce the following output stream: a b c This is an XMLised version of the input stream conforming to rules 1-3 above. In order to produce the above XMLised output thru the XMLised generator I am planning - To let the data generator use rules 1-3 i.e. For an input 'abc' the data generator would - start building a syntax tree with non terminal 'Document' as the root, looking at rule [1], - On each character of the input stream encountered, the 'Element' non terminal (rule [2]) present in rule [1] would be expanded and the current input character would replace the 'CharData' non terminal in rule [2] This way I can get the the entire XMLised output as a parse tree using the XML grammar. This XML parse tree can then be outputted to a file. - Would it be proper grammar usage to be writing a 'XML data generator' application which would use rules 1-3 to generate XML data conforming to rules 1-3? - Are there any such data generators available?If so I'd be grateful if someone could pass me relevant pointers on the web. - How would such a data generator application implement the grammar rules? Thanks in advance for any replies, Amit Rekhi, Software Engineer, A.B. Infosys Private Limited, B-102, Gulmohar Park, New Delhi - 110049, INDIA. Tel: +91-11-6512816,6512822,6968976 Fax: +91-11-6518873 Website: http://www.abinfosys.com EMail: amit@abinfosys.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eriblair at mediom.qc.ca Wed Jun 30 14:41:13 1999 From: eriblair at mediom.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Riblair?=) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Construct a list without duplicate element Message-ID: <00d201bec2f6$94f32a60$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca> Hi everybody, Does anyone know a way to do a list in a XSL file in a ... ... ... and eliminate the elements (or simply not display these ...) or nodes that the FCOLOR is the same (ex: 3 elements as @FCOLOR="red" and 3 "red" appear in the list ... but I want just to see one "red"...) Thnaks in advance for any answer, Regards, ?ric Riblair, Agronome (eriblair@mediom.qc.ca) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990630/bfc3057c/attachment.htm From P.Johnston at archives.gla.ac.uk Wed Jun 30 16:03:11 1999 From: P.Johnston at archives.gla.ac.uk (Pete Johnston) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Construct a list without duplicate element In-Reply-To: <00d201bec2f6$94f32a60$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: <29ED9101F44@arts.gla.ac.uk> Eric Riblair asked: > Does anyone know a way to do a list in a XSL file in a ... [query snipped] I am not sure whether I understood your question correctly, but with the following XML document: a red item a blue item a green item a red item a blue item a green item a red item and the following stylesheet

    XT produces the following output

    blue

    green

    red

    which seems to be the sort of thing you are looking for .There may be more elegant solutions! Your use of the order-by attribute suggests that you might be looking for an IE5 solution, and I doubt whether my offering is compatible with IE5's XSL implementation. Pete Johnston University of Glasgow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk Wed Jun 30 16:18:24 1999 From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Advice on a web site using XML and XSL Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532698D3@SENMAIL3> I am about to start quite a big web project and would appreciate some feedback on XML/XSL integration. Below IE5 and Netscape users will receive a similar interface. For IE5 users I want to make use of XML/XSL, espcecially for my more content orientated pages (company information, case studies etc...). My question is how much of my site I should develop using these and how much using HTML/CSS/behaviours etc... or should I integrate them both (experiences of doing this would be appreciated). Some examples I have looked at use an XML page which is styled using XSL which contains HTML/CSS and Javascipt. Is this the best way to do it? Any example sites - even only IE5 compatable? Thanks Steven Steven Livingstone President, AIP Scotland. ceo@citix.com http://www.citix.com Join Association of Internet Professionals - http://www.citix.com/aip xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 30 16:38:26 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <37757CA0.CC6084C8@prescod.net> <37773133.76B1FF72@allette.com.au> <37780BCA.5D5D5E9E@allette.com.au> <3778D1CC.225B5BE7@prescod.net> Message-ID: <377A1443.497197C4@prescod.net> Ketil Z Malde wrote: > > Perhaps the reason I don't miss a more GUIed environment is the > overhead. I like to be able to quickly throw together a DTD and type > up documents, script to them in e.g. Python and SAX, and in general > get onwards. Massive customization with style sheets is affordable, I > suppose, if you're putting together a project in the "Billion Dollar" > cathegory. The best XML editors allow you to use a tags-on mode with no customization. I've used AdeptEditor, Documentor and XMetaL in this manner. The customizations are for one or two-DTD end-users. > > People want an interface that *is as easy to use* as MSWord. > > Well, I don't really find Word all that easy to use, but that's a side > point. IME, people ask for Word to be protected from seeing > too much structure. Which is what I think is a mistake. I think that Word starts out being easy to use but as you try to do sophisticated things it falls apart because you have no way of correlating your mental model with Word's data model. Without a "tags view" there is no way to figure out what Word is "thinking." So yes, an XML editor could actually be easier for complicated tasks. In fact, WordPerfect is probably easier for complicated tasks because of its "tags view." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "The new revolutionaries believe the time has come for an aggressive move against our oppressors. We have established a solid beachhead on Friday. We now intend to fight vigorously for 'casual Thursdays.' -- who says America's revolutionary spirit is dead? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed Jun 30 16:50:53 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: XML Editors - Word 2000?? References: <010101bec2c8$36249f10$2ef96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <377A17ED.FFFDF837@prescod.net> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > > On the subject of XML editors: > * FrameMaker+SGML is excellent, but a big job to set up for complete > structured editing. Ugh. Not only painful to set up, but has no support for XML import, IIRC. And no macro language. And no mode that strongly requires validity. But it has GREAT WYSIWYG and excellent rendering nad printing. > Not to be contrarian, but I would love an XML editor that hid structure > from me. But you go on to describe one that allows you to get at structure *through* style: > I think a good user interface for an editor would also allow specify > elements by reverse tracing through the stylesheet: you know you want > to insert an element that is rendered italic & bold by the current > stylesheet, so you select menu Style>Italic>Bold> > and it would present you a choice of any element types in the current > context whose stylesheet matches that description. So you need to know the structural member that you are looking for. Structure can't be hidden. > Just like a coloured map, it would be great if all inline elements were > associated with a font or style, and that I could use the style menus > to drill down to the allowed generic elements in context. Maps are for navigation, not data entry. > For some people, I think visual operation is stronger than conceptual > operation; for markup languages it means that even though I may start > editing a document using thoughts about the structure, when I become > familiar with the editor I may be better switching over to using > visual cues (and to using keyboard rhythms). I think that the keyboard rhythms are a lot more important for data entry than the visual cues. The visual cues are mostly important for finding and recognizing things that are already in the document. Navigation, not data entry. > On a similar vein, one good thing that having named content models in > XML Schemas is that they can allow hierarchical menus for selecting > elements. I strongly agree. Named model groups are very important. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "The new revolutionaries believe the time has come for an aggressive move against our oppressors. We have established a solid beachhead on Friday. We now intend to fight vigorously for 'casual Thursdays.' -- who says America's revolutionary spirit is dead? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com Wed Jun 30 16:59:57 1999 From: gkholman at CraneSoftwrights.com (G. Ken Holman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Upcoming XSLT Lecture at Metastructures 1999 Message-ID: On Monday August 16, 1999 at the Metastructures 1999 conference in beautiful Montr?al, Qu?bec there will be the one-day lecture "Introduction to XSLT" covering the latest XSLT draft (whichever draft is current at the end of July at which point I submit my presentation slides for reproduction). See http://www.gca.org/conf/meta99/ for more information about the conference. For an abstract and syllabus, please see the conference schedule link on the home page in the trailer below. The day is chock full (and in the past has gone into overtime with Q&A) and the entire working draft is overviewed. The lecture title is "Introduction to XSLT" (note this is the one-day lecture instead of the two-day hands-on workshop "Practical Formatting Using XSLT" that covers the same material with exercises). ........ Ken -- G. Ken Holman mailto:gkholman@CraneSoftwrights.com Crane Softwrights Ltd. http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/ Box 266, Kars, Ontario CANADA K0A-2E0 +1(613)489-0999 (Fax:-0995) Website: XSL/XML/DSSSL/SGML services, training, libraries, products. Publications: Introduction to XSLT (3rd Edition) ISBN 1-894049-00-4 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Wed Jun 30 17:25:39 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: Advice on a web site using XML and XSL In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532698D3@SENMAIL3> References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD488532698D3@SENMAIL3> Message-ID: (Reply-to has been set to xsl-list@mulberrytech.com to avoid further cross-posting.) * Steven Livingstone | | For IE5 users I want to make use of XML/XSL, espcecially for my more | content orientated pages (company information, case studies | etc...). My question is how much of my site I should develop using | these and how much using HTML/CSS/behaviours etc... or should I | integrate them both (experiences of doing this would be | appreciated). As it stands your question is very hard to answer in a meaningful way, since too much important background information is missing. If you can answer the following it might help: - who are the users? web users in general? - what kind of content are we talking about? normal web pages? - what kind of benefits do you expect/want from using XML? - in what form is the site content edited on the server side? --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed Jun 30 19:01:23 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: parsers for Palm? In-Reply-To: <009c01bec2bb$4fa8fba0$2ef96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <199906301703.NAA20083@hesketh.net> At 03:42 PM 6/30/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >Our toy XXX (eXperimental XML leXer) is being written (in C) to try out >an idea >for smaller parsers for PDAs. >http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/xxxlex.html > >[...much good...] > >Rather than having an XML parser that fits into 23K, what about an >WBXML/HTML/XML/DTD/CSS/JavaScript/URI/ISO 8601 parser >that fits into 50K? (Well, I don't know what a good estimate is: perhaps >50K to 10K, depending on how big a generic regex validator is.) This is a really good idea, thinking in a different direction, and could be very useful, especially if it were available, say, in ROM. My one concern is that for Palm devices, there are some 64K limits. I'm still trying to figure out what exactly this does to code and how (if at all) it's changed in PalmOS 3.0, so it may not be that large a problem. Sadly, all the NetNanny-type software out there will probably block out your code think it's about something other than parsing. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed Jun 30 20:19:23 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:13:37 2004 Subject: SAX 1.0/Java Bugs Page Message-ID: <14201.63345.181148.787285@megginson.com> I have just started a SAX 1.0/Java bugs page, which will appear before too long at http://www.megginson.com/SAX/bugs.html (I'm offline right now.) So far, there's just one bug, but I seem to recall a few others, and would be grateful for repeat reports. Since we're already working on SAX2, I'm looking only for reports of actual bugs, not feature shortages (bugs in JavaDoc documentation *do* count, though). Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)