From andrewl at microsoft.com  Tue Feb  1 00:20:43 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Definition of code contents
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AD6A@RED-MSG-08>

Schemas support comments, and they also support <annotation> elements.  

It is worth noting that if "2" means "divorced" it also means "divorcee"
etc., by which I mean that data representation is not user interface.

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From rbryan at CapAccess.org  Tue Feb  1 01:15:16 2000
From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720131201637.16202A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

unsubscribe


I've repeatedly sent unsubscribe messages!
WHY WON'T YOU TAKE ME OFF OF THIS LIST?????




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From tbray at textuality.com  Tue Feb  1 01:30:56 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: XTech 2000 in San Jose
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000131173210.00ee2e6c@pop.intergate.ca>

<Advertisement>I'm pumped about the program.  We got this massive number
of submissions - over three times the number we had space for - and we had
to turn some down that were just great.  The thing that's interesting and
new is that we couldn't shake out a sane division of things into tracks that
didn't end up with lots of obviously red-hot papers positioned against 
each other.  So we're doing a single tech track, which means the
speakers are going to have to compress their presentations, but the audience
for each will be big.  I really didn't want to co-chair another one of
these but I'm glad I got talked into it.  You wanna be there. 
</Advertisement>

At 01:29 PM 1/31/00 -0600, Steven R. Newcomb wrote:
>> We're also trying out a new evening event, called "Town Hall
>> Meetings": on the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, after dinner, we're
>> going to hold open-mike town-hall meetings on key W3C standards.
>
>Why limit the topics of discussion to "key W3C standards"?  This
>doesn't sound like a Town Hall Meeting to me.  It sounds much more
>like a meeting of a particular political party.  

The co-chairs of the conference (Jon and David and I) picked the subjects
solely on the basis of what we thought would generate the most interest
and lead to discussions that would have value to those who participated
and listened.  Some other topics that might have been good candidates
included SML, Programming Languages, and server-side software.  Based 
on what we see around the industry, we get the feeling that schemas and 
query are both Hot Stuff, and we were able to get some key people from 
those committees to come and pitch in.  All points of view are welcome.  
We haven't tried this before so let's see how it works out.

>Perhaps more to the point, who is paying for the meeting space and the
>open mike?  If it's the participants in XTech 2000, by means of their
>conference registration fees, then why aren't *they* in control of the
>agenda?

They are, really.  The GCA, who is running the conference, really only cares
about one thing: how many people come.  They will do what they can to
select an agenda that attracts the maximal number of people.  Not exactly
the elegance of parliamentary procedure, but it should tend to the
same end.  -T.


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From david at megginson.com  Tue Feb  1 02:25:47 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: XTech 2000 in San Jose
In-Reply-To: <200001311929.NAA01123@bruno.techno.com>
References: <14485.42457.501283.167003@localhost.localdomain>
	<200001311929.NAA01123@bruno.techno.com>
Message-ID: <14486.17431.816684.618508@localhost.localdomain>

Steven R. Newcomb writes:

 > > We're also trying out a new evening event, called "Town Hall
 > > Meetings": on the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, after dinner,
 > > we're going to hold open-mike town-hall meetings on key W3C
 > > standards.
 > 
 > Why limit the topics of discussion to "key W3C standards"?  

We had only two evenings available, and chose what we thought would
draw the most interest and controversy.  Schemas and Query are very
much on people's radar right now, judging from the level of discussion
on XML-Dev and other lists.  Other finalists included at least one
non-W3C topic, the SML stuff.

 > This doesn't sound like a Town Hall Meeting to me.  It sounds much
 > more like a meeting of a particular political party.  At a Town
 > Hall Meeting, by contrast, persons of all political persuasions and
 > allegiances can be heard, and all topics of common interest to the
 > residents of the Town can be discussed.

The town council sets the agenda, then the citizens come out to air
their views.  You can even mention HyTime when you have your turn at
the microphone, if you want.


All the best,


David

p.s. I left the W3C's XML Activity last fall, for personal reasons.

p.p.s. Should we hold a town hall on town halls?

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Tue Feb  1 02:32:03 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
Message-ID: <003101bf6c5d$5f887540$0101a8c0@tompassin>

The "</TABLE/>" tag is not legal in xml or html.  "<TABLE BORDER="0"/>" is
also not what you want, because it ends the TABLE tag right there.

Before asking how to write xslt code, you should write an example of the
html that you want to produce from an example of the source xml.  Test it,
and when the html is working, THEN you can start to work on the xslt.

You can count with <xsl:number/>, you can set variables with with
xsl:variable, and you can get the current position with position().  Between
these, you ought to be able to do what you want.

Tom Passin

 <prasadm@crt.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your time. I have tried what you have suggested and that works
> fine.
> But what I am trying to do is.
>
> <xsl:template match="ROW">
>   <xsl:choose>
>   <xsl:when test="position()=0">
> <TABLE BORDER="0"/>
> <xsl:apply-templates/>
>   </xsl:when>
>   <xsl:when test="position() div 10 = 1">
> </TABLE/>
>   </xsl:when>
>   <xsl:otherwise>
> <xsl:apply-templates/>
>   </xsl:otherwise>
>   </xsl:choose>
> </xsl:template>
>
> Since the parser was giving an error on the </TABLE/> line, I tried using
> &lt;/TABLE/&gt;
> but this tag would appear on the browser rather than being interpreted as
a
> markup.
> Is there any other way of accomplishing this, I wanted to know.
>
> Thanks in advance for the help.
>
> Another simple question, is it possible to add a node in an XML document
at
> some reqular intervals.
> like. For eg: Say, I have a XML doc. with 400 rows. I want to insert a
> <LAYER></LAYER>
> tag between every 20 documents. The XML doc. after the insertion should
look
> like this.
>
> <ROWSET>
> <LAYER num="1">
> <ROW id="1">
> ......
> </ROW>
> <ROW id="2">
> ......
> </ROW>
> <ROW id="3">
> ......
> </ROW>
> ....
> ...
> <ROW id="20">
> ......
> </ROW>
> </LAYER>
> <LAYER num="2">
> ....
> .....
> </LAYER>
> </ROWSET>
>
> How can this be done? If anyone has a sample code, it would
> be helpful.
>
>
> -- Prasad
>
>


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From srn at techno.com  Tue Feb  1 03:55:48 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <38924B5B.4FDA@hiwaay.net> (message from Len Bullard on Fri, 28
	Jan 2000 20:07:24 -0600)
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000128071621.26755A-100000@grind> <38924B5B.4FDA@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <200002010355.VAA01335@bruno.techno.com>

[Len Bullard:]
> 1.  True or False:  hyTime started (little H deliberate as a music 
> standard.  The problem(s) to be solved were synchronization and an 
> application language for a musical notation.  What requirements of music 
> made the hyTime designers move into a larger scope of standardization 
> (Intergrated Open Hypermedia:  Bibliographic Model).

Yes, it started as an abstract music description language.  The
requirements of music representation are the same as the requirements
of text representation and information management, with the added
complexity of projecting abstract time schedules from one finite
coordinate space to another.

> 2.  True of False:  There originally WAS a hyTime DTD.  Why was 
> it abandoned?

Huh?  There still is a HyTime DTD.  That's one of the formal
specifications of the standard; others include the SGML Property Set
and the HyTime Property Set.

> 3.  When at its most widely studied, HyTime included an exhaustive
> set of linking and location models.  At this point, the
> synchronization facility was expressed using these.  Why did linking
> and location become the dominant feature of HyTime?

Because it was the hardest problem, and at the same time, the key
problem for the whole idea of HyTime.  The solution to the addressing
problem required the highest levels of abstraction, and the most key
ideas.  My perspective is that HyTime's main accomplishment, in the
end, was to make it possible to impose any combination of arbitrary
structures, rigorously and formally, on any set of components of any
kinds of information, at any level of granularity.  In effect, to make
all aspects of all information, everywhere, a single (ginormous)
queriable database, or to "address any information, anywhere, any
time, in any convenient terms".  Together, linking and location
addressing make it possible to create "view documents" -- lenses
through which any set of information objects appears to have some
arbitrary set of relationships among its members.  (A topic map is an
exceptionally cool example of a type of "view document".  It imposes
the topic map author's opinion as to the structure of knowledge, as
represented in the structure of the topic map, upon all the materials
whose contents are referenced by the topic map.)  HyTime scheduling is
just another kind of imposed structure.  With it, the "view document"
specifies the arrangement of the information set in finite coordinate
spaces, such as 4-D spacetime.  So, addressing truly is the key to
everything in HyTime.  (Most of the rest of the problem of designing
HyTime was making sure that all the kinds of imposable structure
(trees, directed graphs, and schedules) don't trip over each other and
work nicely together, both semantically and syntactically.)

> 4.  True or False:  Groves are a concept borrowed from DSSSL, a 
> style language, itself, originally that was altered to include 
> Semantics.  What requirement in a linking and location standard 
> resulted in a unification with the DSSSL groves concept?

At least from my perspective, it appeared to me that the grove concept
was invented and developed primarily by James Clark, with significant
input from others, as a solution to a set of addressing problems and
requirements emanating from both the DSSSL and HyTime standards,
pretty much equally.  As far as I was concerned, anyway, the primary
motivation for this work was the economic insanity of the alternative:
asking SGML system vendors to implement two ISO standard addressing
languages/paradigms for SGML, (a) the DSSSL Query Language for
transformations and (b) the HyTime "HyQ" Query Language for
hyperlinking and all other kinds of component re-use.  There needed to
be a single query language, and its foundation -- that is, what was
being queried, for all purposes of hyperlinking, component re-use,
formatting and transformation -- had to be strong enough to support
all of the requirements of both hyperlinking and transformation.
Thus, less would be more.  And, hallelujah, the grove paradigm turned
out to be exactly that: way, way more power, using way, way less
machinery.  Of course, then we had to revisit practically everything
in HyTime, because the power of the new paradigm cast a critical new
light on the design of everything else, revealing previously hidden
blemishes and inconsistencies.  It was quite awkward, painful, and
expensive to fix it, even though very few people were actually using
HyTime at that time.  Thinking about it reminds me, gloomily, that the
grove idea still hasn't been appreciated by the XML design community
as a whole.  When the time comes to rationalize all the W3C's XML
auxiliary specs with each other, the cleanup cost is likely to be
quite frightening.  A tremendous amount of good-faith effort, on the
part of many people who have been trusting the W3C to provide rational
design leadership, will be lost, and at least some of XML's current
forward momentum will have been dissipated.

> BTW:  Tao.  It means, "the way".  In that system, there are 
> many ways; they lead to the same place.   Aware intelligence 
> can decide to go there together.. or not.  It is more important to 
> understand that than it is to understand HyTime because 
> the effect of community is much stronger than the effect 
> of monopoly or consortium.

Bravo, Len.

> Authority is choice, and 
> whether as in the Tao, this is opposites, or as in Tao, 
> extremes of the same continuum, intelligence still 
> must choose for community.

I'll take that as a poem.  (My mysticism parser must be on the fritz.)

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
7101 Chase Oaks Boulevard 
Plano, Texas 75025 USA

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From pandeng at telepath.com  Tue Feb  1 03:56:14 2000
From: pandeng at telepath.com (Steve Schafer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: UTF-16 in external entities
Message-ID: <imlc9s0sr6ch8tpdh4shdldjjv4gb2u814@4ax.com>

I have a question regarding what appears to be an inconsistency
between the original XML 1.0 spec and one of the errata. Erratum E44
contains the following:

"Add the following to the second paragraph after the list (this also
takes care of the previous erratum on UTF-7): 'Note: Since external
parsed entities in UTF-16 may begin with any character...'"

Whereas the second paragraph of section 4.3.3 says:

"Entities encoded in UTF-16 must begin with the Byte Order Mark..."

I'm inclined to believe the original spec. If an external parsed
entity encoded in UTF-16 does in fact begin with the Byte Order Mark,
then I can't see any way in which the autodetection algorithm would
fail (barring the pathological cases of an 8-bit-encoded entity
beginning with the characters FE FF or FF FE, of course).

-Steve Schafer


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From wonsukkim at yahoo.com  Tue Feb  1 04:16:21 2000
From: wonsukkim at yahoo.com (Wonsuk Kim)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: music industries DTD's
Message-ID: <LPBBINKKMBEDEGAFMNMEAECJCAAA.wonsukkim@yahoo.com>

Does anyone know of any official music-industry DTD's out there,
especially those with song/recording info such as Artist, Title, album,
etc.?

Thanks,
Wonsuk Kim


__________________________________________________
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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Tue Feb  1 09:30:01 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: DTD Parser
In-Reply-To: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F02BF56@INDUS>
References: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F02BF56@INDUS>
Message-ID: <m3snzd5kzb.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Iresh Mehta
|
| Currently I know of only the xmlproc parser that includes a DTD
| parsing API.  However this parser is written in Python and I don't
| want to spend time on porting it to C++ or Java (if a port already
| exists please let me know).

It runs under JPython[1], a pure Java implementation of Python, so you
can use it in Java if you want. It's not going to be fast, but at
least you can parse and load DTDs.

Using Python code from Java requires a little trickery, but it isn't
really difficult. If you want I can try to help you with answers to
questions and so on and perhaps an initial example to get you started.

--Lars M.

[1] <URL: http://www.jpython.org/ >


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From ben at thunderhouse.de  Tue Feb  1 09:51:25 2000
From: ben at thunderhouse.de (Ben)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: position() Problem with Lotus XML
Message-ID: <3896AC0E.AD6906F@thunderhouse.de>

I have a problem that seems to be a bug in Lotus XSL. Just as likely I
have overlooked a mistake of mine.

The following code reproduces the problem:

in the problematic line (s.b.), position()+1 is not evaluated. If insead
of 'position()+1' I put a fixed position (e.g. '4'), everything works
ok. If I just output the position of each element('<xsl:value-of
select='position()'>'), everything is ok, too.
I also tried this with a variable for the position (see second code
example). In this case, the variable contains the right values if output
on it's own, but not as used in the example.

Any ideas of what I might have done wrong? Or is this really a bug in
Lotus XML?

<xsl:template match="area">
<xsl:for-each select="section">
<xsl:choose>
<xsl:when test="position() mod 2">
<tr>
<td>
<xsl:value-of select="@name"/>
</td>
<td>
<!-- PROBLEMATIC LINE -->
<xsl:value-of select="../section[position()+1]/@name"/>
</td>
</tr>
</xsl:when>
<xsl:otherwise/>
</xsl:choose>
</xsl:for-each>
</xsl:template>

Second code example:

<xsl:template match="area">
<xsl:for-each select="section">
<xsl:variable name="var"><xsl:value-of
select="postion()+1"/></xsl:variable>
<xsl:choose>
<xsl:when test="position() mod 2">
<tr>
<td>
<xsl:value-of select="@name"/>
</td>
<td>
<xsl:value-of select="../section[$var]/@name"/>
</td>
</tr>
</xsl:when>
<xsl:otherwise/>
</xsl:choose>
</xsl:for-each>
</xsl:template>



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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Tue Feb  1 11:00:38 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
References: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org> <38957750.440819EC@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <3896BCB3.6F7B0256@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

"Roger L. Costello" wrote:
> 
> I reckon that I will answer my own question.  To give the cost element
> an attribute currency, where the type of cost is the datatype money, you
> declare it as follows:
> 
>             <element name="cost">
>                 <type source="money">
>                     <attribute name="currency" minOccurs="1">
>                         <datatype name="currencies" source="string">
>                             <enumeration value="USD"/>
>                             <enumeration value="CND"/>
>                         </datatype>
>                     </attribute>
>                 </type>
>             </element>
> 
> The element "type" has an optional attribute "source" which I set to the
> datatype "money".

I do not belive that will work. type source="..." is probably
not intended to look into the (different) datatype namespace.
I hope the Schema people will make this more explicit, e.g.
by changing datatype references to datatype="xxx" attribute.

I think the original idea is that datatype-elements just cannot have
attributes, but I am not sure if that is really a good idea.

Best regards

Stefan

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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Tue Feb  1 11:00:18 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: my XSLT equipment
Message-ID: <C1256878.003A6EDB.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>



Translation XML Schema --> DTD

Lots of tools need a DTD, but the  XML Schema is a better format to work with (though not completely stable).

A solution is to generate a DTD from the XML Schema using a XSLT stylesheet.
This is simple light-weight solution, and I maintain that you don't have to depend on big tools like XML Authority to do this.

Anyone willing to share code for this XSLT stylesheet ?

Jean-Marc



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Feb  1 11:32:01 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675298@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote,
> > * A means of querying an XMLReader implementations features 
> >   without first having to instantiate an XMLReader.
>
> That's not too hard: it would take only a few static methods.

OK, that's one way of doing it. But I don't think it'd be
a good choice, because it really doesn't get along well with
factories ... a standard SAX one, or custom ones.

What's the problem with adding a new interface?

> There are a couple of issues, though:
>
> 1. For a filter (which may be more common than a root reader), 
>    the features available depend on the features supported by 
>    the parent -- in other words, you cannot know what features 
>    are supported *until* the reader is instantiated.

OK, but then a filter isn't a standalone entity. For example,
creating one via the XMLFilterImpl default constructor and
then invoking parse() would, unlike standalone parsers, throw
a NullPointerException. I wouldn't expect a filter to have
an XMLReaderImplementation associated with it, because it isn't
really an XMLReader implementation in the ordinary sense.

> 2. You cannot enforce static methods with an interface, so 
>    they would have to be a matter of convention (like a no-
>    argument constructor).

Well, you can't enforce _anything_ ... it is, after all, a
matter of convention that java XML parsers typically implement
org.xml.sax.Parser. If SAX 2 requires it, then it has to go in
if people want to be interoperable.

Hmm ... static methods just aren't the right way of going
about this anyhow.

> > * A plug'n'play XMLReader factory which supports multiple 
> >   parsers and transparent adaptation of SAX 1 parsers.
>
> Does this belong in the SAX core, or should it be a higher-
> level app? I ask because I'm trying to keep the core sax2.jar 
> as small as possible, since it will usually be only a minor 
> part of an app.

Maybe not in the SAX _core_, but I think it does belong in
_SAX_. I think you might be worrying a little too much about
footprint here (is it a general purpose API or are we
targetting palmtops and embedded devices?), but even if you're
right we can just split SAX into a core and a number of
optional modules. I'd be quite happy to see a factory moved
to the org.xml.sax.ext package and made an optional feature.

> > * An extended ParserAdapter which exposes a SAX 1 parsers
> >   support for validation.
>
> I don't know if this belongs in SAX1 per se, since there's no > way to
know in the general case.  People writing adapters for 
> specific SAX1 parsers (where validation is known) can extend 
> ParserAdapter to add that information.

Sure, you can't tell from an arbitrary instance of Parser
whether or not it supports validation. But typically there will
be contextual information hanging around somewhere which would
allow a boolean validating/not validating flag to be passed to
a parser adapter. I've got this working quite nicely for
AElfred, and IBMs and Suns parsers ... it's really not that
hard.

And again, if it doesn't belong in the core, that's fine.
Arguably the current ParserAdapter doesn't either. So let's
just move it to an optional package.

> > * A couple of utility interfaces which bundle up the 
> >   standard SAX 2.0 feature and property identifiers.
>
> Two issues here:
>
> 1. I'm trying to limit bloat.

Those two interfaces account for 1304 bytes uncompressed or
695 bytes when jar'ed. I'm all in favour of SAX being
lightweight ... but anorexic?

The reason I put them in is that I found use of the literal
Strings to be extremely error prone ... the contents of a String 
literal can't be checked by the compiler there's no way it can 
help me. On the other hand if I misspell a symbolic String 
constant identifier I get a helpful error message telling me to 
fix the problem.

> 2. I expect that the list of core feature and property 
>    identifiers will be able to grow *without* a new SAX 
>    release, so the class would become outdated.

So long as none of the identifiers are removed, the interface
will be correct, albeit not complete. I don't see that as a
problem.

Can you give me some examples of _core_ SAX features that you
think could be added without a new SAX release? Schema support?
surely that'd need an extended API too?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From costello at mitre.org  Tue Feb  1 12:03:30 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
References: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org> <38957750.440819EC@mitre.org> <3896BCB3.6F7B0256@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <3896CBF0.7B693AC4@mitre.org>

Roger L. Costello wrote:
> >             <element name="cost">
> >                 <type source="money">
> >                     <attribute name="currency" minOccurs="1">
> >                         <datatype name="currencies" source="string">
> >                             <enumeration value="USD"/>
> >                             <enumeration value="CND"/>
> >                         </datatype>
> >                     </attribute>
> >                 </type>
> >             </element>
> >
> > The element "type" has an optional attribute "source" which I set to > > the user-defined datatype "money".

Stefan Haustein responded:
> I do not believe that will work. type source="..." is probably
> not intended to look into the (different) datatype namespace.

Here is an example from the XML Schema spec that I based my solution
upon:

    <element name="picture">
        <type source="binary" derivedBy="extension">
            <attribute name="pictype" type="NOTATION"/>
        </type>
    </element>

This example shows the source attribute referencing the built-in
datatype "binary".  I inferred that the source attribute could also
reference a built-in datatype (e.g., the money datatype).  Do I infer
incorrectly?  /Roger


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From david at megginson.com  Tue Feb  1 12:22:19 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: SAX (Introduction, Recomandations, Future...)
In-Reply-To: "Jean Georges PERRIN"'s message of "Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:53:14 +0100"
References: <NDBBIAIPJBHEKEDFKCJGAEAODGAA.jgp@4js.com>
Message-ID: <m3wvop6rkj.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Jean Georges PERRIN" <jgp@4js.com> writes:

> I've been playing a bit with DOM and understood that DOM is maintained and
> updated by the W3C.
> 
> What about SAX ?
> 
> How did it appear ?

We built it collaboratively here on XML-Dev.

> Who's in charge of it ?

I am, but not in any legal sense.  SAX is in the Public Domain, so
there's no legal barrier to stop you (or anyone else) from rereleasing
the same thing, with or without changes, and calling it SAX or
anything else.

So far, the development community has agreed to accept whatever I end
up releasing as "SAX", provide that there's a lot of discussion
first. Of course, that could change at any time.

> Where can I find specs, API description, etc. ?

  http://www.megginson.com/SAX/


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Tue Feb  1 12:25:13 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals. 
In-Reply-To: Message from David Megginson <david@megginson.com> 
   of "31 Jan 2000 18:04:46 EST." <m33drdj10x.fsf@localhost.localdomain> 
Message-ID: <200002011230.HAA06722@trinity.viaduct.com>


Hi all,
I've been studying Miles proposal and I wanted to share with you my
$0.02:

0. The benefits are real and it is great that David is taking the time
   to considerate these before the final day.

1. Even though some the benefits of Miles proposal could be achieved via
   other means (e.g.The possibility of querying the features of an
   XMLReader a priori, could be a matter of static methods), Miles
   proposal, in my opinion is an elegant and congruent way of doing
   it(see Miles last post about factories).

2. I agree with the design principle of keeping SAX as simple as
   possible... but no less. Specially when such lightweight add-ons
   can be included in the standard distribution as an extension
   package, thus providing the benefits, and keeping SAX _core_ as small
   as possible. 

3. I don't think the problem so far with Miles proposal is technical
   or aesthetic ;), it seems to me both good design and
   lightweight... frankly what I think is needed <callForAction> is a
   wider audience that download this and share their opinions here, so
   David can have a more accurate idea of how many people would
   consider this really beneficial.</callForAction>

Fabio.

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Tue Feb  1 12:49:42 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
References: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
Message-ID: <m3aell5bpx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Charles Wiltgen
| 
| Naturally, we're working on an XML parser.  We've started writing
| one from scratch, but I was wondering if there's something out there
| that we can use as a good starting point for our commercial,
| cross-platform product?

I don't know what programming language you use, but chances are you
will find a parser written in it at:

<URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html#SC_XML >


The licenses of the free parsers vary. Some have BSD-ish licenses
(which means you can use them), while others use the GPL, which means
that you can't use them in a commercial product.

--Lars M.


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Tue Feb  1 13:34:10 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
References: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org> <38957750.440819EC@mitre.org> <3896BCB3.6F7B0256@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <3896CBF0.7B693AC4@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <3896E0AB.65DB8B47@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

> Here is an example from the XML Schema spec that I based my solution
> upon:
> 
>     <element name="picture">
>         <type source="binary" derivedBy="extension">
>             <attribute name="pictype" type="NOTATION"/>
>         </type>
>     </element>
> 
> This example shows the source attribute referencing the built-in
> datatype "binary".  I inferred that the source attribute could also
> reference a built-in datatype (e.g., the money datatype).  Do I infer
> incorrectly?  /Roger

oops, I have overlooked that. I think some
clarification from the schema people is needed here. 
I started implementing a schema parser where the type and 
datatype are represented by different classes at the
same level. If the example above is valid, I need to make 
the datatype a property of the type, at the level of the 
content model.

That leads to a general problem: Currently there 
are three different but overlapping concepts

1) content-model
2) type 
3) datatype

I think at least one should/could be removed from the specs.

Best regards

Stefan

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Feb  1 13:55:37 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: "Fabio Arciniegas A."'s message of "Tue, 01 Feb 2000 07:30:47 -0500"
References: <200002011230.HAA06722@trinity.viaduct.com>
Message-ID: <m3snzd6n9e.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Fabio Arciniegas A." <l-arcini@uniandes.edu.co> writes:

> 3. I don't think the problem so far with Miles proposal is technical
>    or aesthetic ;), it seems to me both good design and
>    lightweight... frankly what I think is needed <callForAction> is a
>    wider audience that download this and share their opinions here, so
>    David can have a more accurate idea of how many people would
>    consider this really beneficial.</callForAction>

Yes, that would be very, very helpful.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From costello at mitre.org  Tue Feb  1 14:29:25 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: In Search of XML Interoperability: XLink + XML Schema = 
 Interoperability?
Message-ID: <3896EE27.2A349606@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

I have a few thoughts about XML Interoperability that I would like to
kick around with ya'll.

First, a definition of XML Interoperability:

Definition.
   XML Interoperability: the ability of an application to make effective
                         use of an XML document that it receives.  

There are two ends of the XML Interoperability spectrum:
[1] At one end of the spectrum an application is coded for a specific
schema and this is able to make effective use of only XML documents that
conform to that schema.
[2] At the other end of the spectrum the application is able to make
effective use of any XML document that it receives, regardless of the
schema that the XML document conforms to.

I contend that [2] is the desired goal, but [1] is where we are at
currently.  So, how do we get to [2]?  That's what I wish to explore.

Question.
If an application receives an XML document that conforms to a schema for
which the application has no familiarity, how does the application "make
effective use" of it?

Answer.
>From my own life, when I am exposed to a new idea I learn best by
relating the new idea to something that I already know.  Similarly, if
an application receives an XML document that contains new, unfamiliar
elements/attributes then it may be able to still make use of them (the
unfamiliar elements/attributes) if it can relate them to
elements/attributes that it knows about.  For example, suppose that the
XML Document contains an element <metro>, and <metro> is an element for
which the application has not been coded to understand.  In other words,
<metro> is an unfamiliar element to the application.  Now let's suppose
that there is some way for the application to discover relationships. 
Suppose that the application looks into a "relationship database" and
discovers that <metro> is exactly equivalent to <train>.  Let's further
suppose that the element <train> is something that the application is
familiar with.  The application is now able to "make effective use" of
the <metro> element.

So, what are the key components of XML Interoperability?  There are two
components:
(1) Describing Relationships: there must be a language for describing
the relationships between things.  In the above example we saw the need
to describing the relationship "the <metro> element is exactly
equivalent to the <train> element".  This is, of course, a very simple
relationship.  There are many other types of relationships that we would
like to be able to express.
(2) Discovering Relationships: the relationships that are described must
be physically put somewhere.  Typically, these relationships will relate
elements/attributes/element groups/attribute groups from two or more XML
Schemas.  Intuitively, it seems to me that these relationships belong in
some kind of "relationship database".

If you are familiar with the XLink working draft, the previous
description may sound a lot like XLink. I agree.  Let's take a look at
linking in general and XLink in particular.

Link.
A link is a means for expressing relationships between two or more
items.  The items could be a document or an element or an attribute, or
anything. 

XLink.
XLink has the notion of putting link expressions into a separate link
database document (called a linkbase).  Something analogous is needed to
support XML Interoperability.  I am calling the repository of
relationships a "relationship database".  

However, there are differences between an XLink linkbase and a
relationship database.  Whereas XLink is intended for linking XML
instance documents, the "relationship links" described above is intended
for relating (linking) XML Schema definitions.  Further, the purpose of
the "relationship link" is different from an XLink link.  The
"relationship link" characterizes the relationship between two items,
such as "isA", "equivalence", etc.  Contrast that with an XLink link
whose purpose is to describe things like "should I traverse the link on
activation, should I create a new window, etc". 

Thus, I see a modified form of XLink playing with XML Schemas to enable
XML Interoperability:

XLink(modified) + XML Schema = XML Interoperability

Some other, random thoughts
- discovering a relationship may involve several "hops"; e.g., "A is
related to B, and B is related to C. The application knows about C. 
Therefore, the application has an understanding of A."
- we need to characterize the possible relationships - isA, equivalence,
what else?
- need to consider transitivity, commutativity of relationships.
- currently, XML Schemas has some support for expressing relationships,
namely we can express that element A is exactly equivalent is element
B.  This is good.  However, I would argue that this expression of
equivalence relationships belongs more appropriately in a separate
document, in a "relationship database", as described above.

Okay, this message is long enough.  Any comments?  /Roger


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From d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk  Tue Feb  1 14:59:08 2000
From: d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk (David DS Barnes)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: eXtensible Interchange Language (was [Re: XML Interoperability] )
References: <3896EE27.2A349606@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <3896E6A7.A5A606B@ic.ac.uk>

Hello XML & XSL developers,

I have been wondering if there is any proposed
	eXtensible Interchange Language . . .

	Many computational codes use their own definitions of geometry
	and "boundary conditions"/etc for simulations of physical behaviour,
	and I am aware of VRML and (vaguely) 3DML(?) 

	However, although companies support ouput (and sometimes import),
	this does not make very legible geometric "objects"/etc

	Is there any proposal to develop a common XML language
	that big companies could share?

Anticipating with great interest,

David


"Roger L. Costello" wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a few thoughts about XML Interoperability that I would like to
> kick around with ya'll.
> 
> <snip/>
-- 
David DS Barnes
	mechanical eng,imperial college		|	t:0171 594 7181
	exhibition rd, london, sw7 2bx		|	f:0171 594 7127

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Feb  1 15:08:41 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: Data models: Groves and tutti quanti.
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEDOENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

I followed the thread on groves with a lot of interest since we are actually
right in the middle of preparing the new scope of work for DSSSL-2. As you
know, I am also doing a lot of experiments in Didier's labs. So, this thread
made me check in my notebooks and see what I already have found on Groves,
data models and tutti quanti.

So, for the curious ones, I'll talk in this Lab's note about the Grove data
model, its relationship with the DOM and also about other possible data
structures used to model an XML document.

Groves:
--------
Groves are based on a certain data model that can be easily used by anything
that can process lists. The atom of a Grove is the node. And as atoms, nodes
are divisible :-) and are composed of properties. A node is thus, in fact, a
set of properties. Some properties are singletons like, for instance, a
"Boolean" or a "string". Others are collections like, for instance, the
"Attributes" or "Content" properties. If we just take the "element node" as
an example we have, according to the SGML Grove plan (that can easily be
mapped on XML):

General Identifier (Gi)	- singleton (string)
Identifier (ID)		- singleton (string)
Attributes			- collection (a list of attribute nodes)
Content			- collection ( a list of element nodes that also contains a single
data node member)

For graphically inclined people let's translate this basic model into a
figure:
Element node
     |____ Gi
     |____ ID
     |____ Attributes
     |         |___ attribute node
     |         |___ attribute node
     |____ Content
              |___ data node
              |___ element node
              |___ element node
                       |___ element node

As you noticed either form the text or the figure, the whole hierarchy is
built on the "Content" property. This is this latter that contains the other
element nodes and therefore this is this property which is used to map the
SGML or XML document tree (at least, the elements). Off course, other nodes
can be added to the model like a root node (generally mapped to the
document), processing instruction nodes, comment nodes, etc...

As you also probably noticed, the Grove is already behind the DOM. Why?

DOM:
----
The DOM is an API that allows to manipulate a hidden and unknown data
structure. However, as it is the case for any API, the data structure is not
so silent and, sooner or later, the data structure percolate through the
API. The DOM is no exception to this observation.
As you all know, the DOM has also its atom: the node. The DOM node is a
collection object. Or to be more precise an API that wraps a collection.
With the API you can manipulate a collection of node, whatever their type.
The DOM, even if the properties are different from the SGML Grove plan, it
is following about the same pattern. And as you can notice by yourself, the
DOM includes a plethora of node types:
- ELEMENT_NODE The node is a Element.
- ATTRIBUTE_NODE The node is an Attr.
- TEXT_NODE The node is a Text node.
- CDATA_SECTION_NODE The node is a CDATASection.
- ENTITY_REFERENCE_NODE The node is an EntityReference.
- ENTITY_NODE The node is an Entity.
- PROCESSING_INSTRUCTION_NODE The node is a ProcessingInstruction.
- COMMENT_NODE The node is a Comment.
- DOCUMENT_NODE The node is a Document.
- DOCUMENT_TYPE_NODE The node is a DocumentType.
- DOCUMENT_FRAGMENT_NODE The node is a DocumentFragment.
- NOTATION_NODE The node is a Notation.

So to make the story short, the DOM implicitly is an interface to something
so similar to the Grove that we can even say that what's behind is a Grove
with a different Grove plan than the SGML grove plan. So, let's say that the
DOM is a Grove with an XML grove plan and that the info set are this Grove
plan, even if the Info set is a bit fuzzy concerning the structure.

Observation:
------------
What you can observe is that the Grove is more or less what you would find
in a parse tree, with some properties added to the nodes. An other thing
that you can observe is that the document is decomposed on collections and
singletons. So far so good, this is a data model that seems to be the
reassigning base for both the ISO and W3C worlds. The Grove has the effect
to create a multitude of node types. Because the original document is parsed
and each of its entities are trnasformed into nodes, therefore we have a
multiptude of nodes. Imagine as we add more complexity to the XML world, we
may have the problem to multiply the number of entities (i.e. nodes) and
then make Mr Occam feel bad and us like children that never learn from
wisdom (who said that the humanity learns only by crisis?).

Possible alternative model:
---------------------------
Can we envision a possible different data model for an XML document? You bet
we can. An even simpler one closer to the object world and not necessarily
resembling a parse tree. Let's call the atom an object and let's say that an
object is composed of a set of properties and that a property is simply a
name/value pair. An object is composed of two basic collections:
a) a collection of properties
b) a collection of objects
The collection of objects is used to build a hierarchy and each object can
be mapped to an XML element. Let's take a concrete example. IN this data
model, an element is transformed into an object and a set of properties
attached to this objects. If we say that all attributes are properties and
that the data content is also a property. Then if we have an object like
<Book author="Didier PH Martin" publisher="Wrox" subject="XML">Professional
XML</Book>
Then this element is transformed into
object=Book
   |___ property={author,Didier PH Martin}
   |___ property={publisher,Wrox}
   |____property={subject,XML}
   |____property={content,Professional XML}
Then if we want to build a hierarchy of elements we simply have:

 object ----- set of properties
    |____ object ----- set of properties
    |____ object ----- set of properties
            |____ object ----- set of properties

I guess that now you caught the data model. It is easy to grasp. Why use
such model and what are the advantages of using it?

>From Macrocosm to microcosm
---------------------------
question: Do you know, what kind of data model a directory service has?
simple

object ----- set of properties
    |____ object ----- set of properties
    |____ object ----- set of properties
            |____ object ----- set of properties

What are the advantages to use the alternative data model to the that we
actually use and that is based on the concept of Grove? Simple. If you have
the same model for a directory service that you have for a document
internal. And, that you re-unite document used to encode knowledge and
document used to encode data into a single format. Then, if you have the
same data model for the Macro (the directory service) and the micro (the
document), you have a powerful paradigm and have re-united the macrocosm and
the microcosm.

So, maybe the right question to ask is: Is the Grove the right model? Is
there any other alternative that can offer more? What are the other doing?
what is their model? Can we synthesize two world? What are the effects of
having a single data model for:
- directory services
- data messages
- documents used to encode knowledge
- etc...


Benefits:
--------
If we use instead a model based on the objects (as defined above), we have
potentially less entities since if we map any kind of elements to an object
we can instead provide a simpler API:
a) for object collection manipulation - to add, remove, etc... - and map any
element to an object (even processing instruction)
b) for properties manipulation - to add, remove, etc... and map attributes
as properties, data content as property and even add new properties not
comming from the document to a particular object type.

Only two basic interfaces are needed:
a) an interface to manipulate the object collection and also ease the memory
load because we know that an element is mapped to an object.
b) an interface to manipulate the properties.

Some languages can even map object/properties access like

object.property = value
value = object.property

So for object manipulation (i.e. elements manipulation)
add()
remove()
update()
move()
copy()
find()
etc...
Notice that we added copy() and move() that are useful methods, Also a
find() that may take as a parameter a query expression and return an object.

For properties
add()
rename()
remove()
get()
put()
etc...

And you know what? this simple API could be used for either a directory
service or for document internals.


OK, time to return to the lab, I have a presentation to prepare. By the way,
I'll be at New York on Wednesday and Thursday(at WebNewYork), so, if you
want to discuss these issues in person, I be more than glad to exchange and
understand the world through new point of views. Otherwise, for the curious
of this world, my email is always open to discussion and learning.

"A different point of view is worth a thousand points in IQ"

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Tue Feb  1 15:22:12 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:44 2004
Subject: query language
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001311810130.7764-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <016401bf6cc7$82ad7240$43bdb3c7@WORKGROUP>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Kline" <bkline@rksystems.com>
To: "Eric van der Vlist" <vdv@dyomedea.com>
Cc: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>; "XML-Dev Mailing list"
<xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 31, 2000 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: query language


> The XQL spec is one of the candidates submitted to the XML Query
> Language WG (another is XML-QL).  The members of the WG have been very
> tight-lipped about what they're doing, so it's pretty difficult (or
> impossible) for those not on the inside to make any project plans in
> this area with any real confidence that they'll end up with designs that
> are compatible with the adopted recommendation.

I don't claim to be "on the inside", but my understanding is that NO ONE in
or out of the W3C or Query WG could make any plans in this area with real
confidence that they will be compatible with the adopted recommendation.

XPath is, again to the best of my understanding, the closest thing to a
query standard that we have for the moment.  The Query Requirements say "The
XML Query work will take into consideration the expressibility and search
facilities of XPath when formulating its algebra and query syntax, and
wherever possible try to encompass those functionalities into its query
language."

Anyone can comment on the Query Requirements at
mailto:www-xml-query-comments@w3.org (and check the archive at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-query-comments/ .


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From henry_fieglein at dgbank.de  Tue Feb  1 15:37:45 2000
From: henry_fieglein at dgbank.de (henry_fieglein@dgbank.de)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: DTD to UML
Message-ID: <C1256878.0055C5E2.00@NOY10302.dgbank.de>

Does anyone know of a tool which converts a DTD to a UML (or Rational Rose
Diagram)?

Thanks,
Henry Fieglein
DG Bank



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From bd at internet-etc.com  Tue Feb  1 15:44:52 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <m3aell5bpx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
Message-ID: <000c01bf6cca$4e4b1400$ded65c8b@p300>

I had a look at this list, but I couldn't find any finished apps here.
Everything is either source code or API stuff for inclusion.  What people
need is a finished exe - just a no-brainer install, load and run.  No
requirement for developer's kits or programming knowledge of any kind.

Luckily for the world (little ad here), we will have something like this out
within a week or two.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Lars Marius Garshol
>Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 12:50 PM
>To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: Introduction
>
>
>
>* Charles Wiltgen
>|
>| Naturally, we're working on an XML parser.  We've started writing
>| one from scratch, but I was wondering if there's something out there
>| that we can use as a good starting point for our commercial,
>| cross-platform product?
>
>I don't know what programming language you use, but chances are you
>will find a parser written in it at:
>
><URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html#SC_XML >
>
>
>The licenses of the free parsers vary. Some have BSD-ish licenses
>(which means you can use them), while others use the GPL, which means
>that you can't use them in a commercial product.
>
>--Lars M.
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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From jgp at 4js.com  Tue Feb  1 15:45:46 2000
From: jgp at 4js.com (Jean Georges PERRIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: [OT] Hiring / Recrutement
Message-ID: <NDBBIAIPJBHEKEDFKCJGIECJDGAA.jgp@4js.com>

Hello,

Nous recrutons...  Si vous connaissez qqun (ou vous), merci de faire passer
le message...


Jean Georges PERRIN
--
Four J's Development Tools (www.4js.com)
jgp@4js.com - Tel +33 (0)3 88 18 61 20 - Fax +33 (0)3 88 18 61 21
--
CAUTION: import com.fourjs.StandardDisclaimer;


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----

Four J's Development Tools

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de logiciel sp?cialis? dans les outils de d?veloppement. Notre
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Ing?nieur D?veloppement Syst?me

Vous assurerez le d?ploiement de nos applications sur ? peu pr?s tous les
Unix du monde, m?me ceux que vous ne soup?onniez pas, ainsi que Windows NT /
2K.

Vous poss?dez une bonne connaissance des domaines Unix et MS-Windows. Les
pratiques de C, C++, SGBDR, Informix 4GL, karat?, taichi chuan et humour
seraient appr?ci?es.

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Pour ces postes bas?s ? Strasbourg-Bischheim, vous poss?dez une formation
d'informaticien(ne) Bac+2 ou plus. La pratique de l'anglais est
indispensable, celle de l'allemand serait un plus. Une exp?rience
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Si vous souhaitez saisir l'une de ces opportunit?s et rejoindre une ?quipe
homog?ne et vraiment dynamique, adressez-nous votre candidature ? :
    Four J's Development Tools France
    Jean Georges PERRIN
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    F67800 Bischheim
    E-mail:  jgp@4js.com

     D?couvrez-nous sur www.4js.com.



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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Tue Feb  1 15:57:56 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Data models: Groves and tutti quanti.
Message-ID: <01b801bf6ccc$7df3c880$43bdb3c7@WORKGROUP>

----- Original Message -----
From: "Didier PH Martin" <martind@netfolder.com>
To: "'XML Dev'" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 9:48 AM
Subject: Data models: Groves and tutti quanti.

> So to make the story short, the DOM implicitly is an interface to
something
> so similar to the Grove that we can even say that what's behind is a Grove
> with a different Grove plan than the SGML grove plan. So, let's say that
the
> DOM is a Grove with an XML grove plan and that the info set are this Grove
> plan, even if the Info set is a bit fuzzy concerning the structure.

That's what the DOM WG was trying to do when we first wrestled with Groves.
Most of us would probably be a little more general and say that what's
behind the DOM *could be* an XML Grove plan, or it could be the proprietary
MS, Netscape, SoftQuad, Arbortext, Inso, etc. data structures which may or
may not look like Groves.  Or perhaps Groves is already a reasonable
abstraction for all these data structures .... I think we were agnostic on
that subject.


> <Book author="Didier PH Martin" publisher="Wrox"
subject="XML">Professional
> XML</Book>
> Then this element is transformed into
> object=Book
>    |___ property={author,Didier PH Martin}
>    |___ property={publisher,Wrox}
>    |____property={subject,XML}
>    |____property={content,Professional XML}
> Then if we want to build a hierarchy of elements we simply have:
>
>  object ----- set of properties
>     |____ object ----- set of properties
>     |____ object ----- set of properties
>             |____ object ----- set of properties

How about a mixed content example?  That's where my headache always starts
... What does

   <book> The book
         <title>Professional XML</title> by
         <author>Didier PH Martin</author>
         is available from
         <publisher>Wrox</publisher>
         now.
   </book>

parse to? Is a "content" object what the DOM calls a TextNode?






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From bd at internet-etc.com  Tue Feb  1 16:34:45 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: my XSLT equipment
In-Reply-To: <C1256878.003A6EDB.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>
Message-ID: <000e01bf6cd1$3c80c560$ded65c8b@p300>

I have to disagree. I think the schema format is MUCH worse to work with. It
is overly long (and a drag to code) and adds nothing of value over DTD's.
I'll ignore the fact it is not finished and unstable.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Jean Marc VANEL
>Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:39 AM
>To: xml-dev-ig%PMDF%MHMAIL@mr.effix.fr; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: my XSLT equipment
>
>
>
>
>Translation XML Schema --> DTD
>
>Lots of tools need a DTD, but the  XML Schema is a better
>format to work with (though not completely stable).
>
>A solution is to generate a DTD from the XML Schema using a
>XSLT stylesheet.
>This is simple light-weight solution, and I maintain that you
>don't have to depend on big tools like XML Authority to do this.
>
>Anyone willing to share code for this XSLT stylesheet ?
>
>Jean-Marc
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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981-02-3594-1
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From fmanola at objs.com  Tue Feb  1 16:22:39 2000
From: fmanola at objs.com (Frank Manola)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: In Search of XML Interoperability: XLink + XML Schema = 
 Interoperability?
References: <3896EE27.2A349606@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <389706FD.F2D651CE@objs.com>

"Roger L. Costello" wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have a few thoughts about XML Interoperability that I would like to
> kick around with ya'll.

Just a brief comment:  It seems to me that what you're describing here
is the general problem of ontologies in general, and representing them
in XML in particular.  For example, "discovering relationships" in
general needs to involve inference, based on relationships such as ISA
that you mentioned, plus derived relationships.  Dealing with this
problem (clearly an important one) in a sensible way is going to involve
more than just XLink.  RDF is part of the picture, as well as prior work
on ontologies, cast into XML (check out, e.g., the SHOE project at
Maryland: http://www.cs.umd.edu/projects/plus/SHOE/ for one version of
this idea), and tons of work on Web metadata of various kinds.  The
power of these representations also needs to be carefully checked
against a specified requirements set (some ontology folks, for example,
think that RDF isn't a powerful enough representation to support what
they want to do).  

There's another thread (actually, several!) on this list that could be
construed as relating to the need to,  as Steve Newcomb put it,
"rationalize all the W3C's XML auxiliary specs with each other".  This
subject potentially adds to that list.  Nothing wrong with that, but we
ought to know we're doing it!

--Frank

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From nhs at llnl.gov  Tue Feb  1 16:58:44 2000
From: nhs at llnl.gov (Norman H. Samuelson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: What parsers are available now?
Message-ID: <4.3.0.33.0.20000201085441.00ad6c30@popeye.llnl.gov>

I'm giving a talk to co-workers tomorrow, promoting XML.  I'd like to 
include a list of the parsers available for XML.  I have concentrated my 
attention on Java for some time now.  I use XML4J from IBM's AlphaWorks.  I 
know that there are parsers for C++ also, and I've heard of others, but was 
not paying attention at the time.  If anyone could give me a list of good 
XML parsers available for other languages, I would appreciate it.


- Norm -

Norman H. Samuelson                  nhs@llnl.gov
Lawrence Livermore National Lab      925-422-0661
P.O. Box 808, L-98
Livermore, CA 94551 


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From cismaru at syndesis.com  Tue Feb  1 17:15:59 2000
From: cismaru at syndesis.com (Liviu Cismaru)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Digest
References: <000e01bf6cd1$3c80c560$ded65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <389714FC.27235BC1@syndesis.com>

Hi
Sorry for this non-xml question.
Does anybody know how to 'set digest' the messages that come from the list?
Thank you.
Liviu


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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Feb  1 17:04:44 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Data models: Groves and tutti quanti.
In-Reply-To: <01ac01bf6ccc$515275b0$43bdb3c7@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEEEENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Michael

Michael said:
That's what the DOM WG was trying to do when we first wrestled with Groves.
Most of us would probably be a little more general and say that what's
behind the DOM *could be* an XML Grove plan, or it could be the proprietary
MS, Netscape, SoftQuad, Arbortext, Inso, etc. data structures which may or
may not look like Groves.  Or perhaps Groves is already a reasonable
abstraction for all these data structures .... I think we were agnostic on
that subject.

Didier replies:
The DOM is not so agnostic as it seems to be. There is an implicit data
model. Off course, it is not explicitly said how the NodeList is implemented
(an array? a list?) but the data model is nonetheless very present in the
DOM.
For instance, just to say that you have attribute nodes implies that if I
have the following expression:
<Book author="Didier PH Martin" publisher="Wrox" subject="XML">Professional
XML</Book>

Then the DOM implicit model is:

element node
     |___ attribute node = author
     |___ attribute node = publisher
     |___ attribute node = subject
     |___ text node = Professional XML
     |___ other element node if there are any.


So, there is a data model and the DOM is not so agnostic at it seems to be.

Michael said:
How about a mixed content example?  That's where my headache always starts
... What does

   <book> The book
         <title>Professional XML</title> by
         <author>Didier PH Martin</author>
         is available from
         <publisher>Wrox</publisher>
         now.
   </book>

parse to? Is a "content" object what the DOM calls a TextNode?

Didier replies:
headache you said? that's an euphemism! mixed content is what's giving
problems to any model :-))
I my model, where an element = an object, mixed content bring some problems
too because we have here two contents instead of one (and even possibly
worse, more than two). Moreover, the content has to be placed in a specific
order. So, for mixed content my data model is not easily mapped to the
structure and I would have to map into:

object = Book ---- {content = The Book}
   |___ object = title ----- {content = Professional XML}
   |___ object = author ---- {content = Didier PH Martin }
   |___ object = content ---- {content = is available from}
   |___ object = publisher --- {content = Wrox}

So, for mixed content, the solution is less elegant than for other king of
elements. Now, the question is: What is most frequent? do we create a data
model for the 20% (or maybe 10%) cases or a data model that fits the 80%
cases.

Conclusion:
Yes for mixed content Michael I have a big headache too this $"%$/?/($*
(translate all this with all kind of good words about Mixed content :-))))
kind of expression force us to use a data model closer to parse tree and
further from semantic modeling.

If I create an object only for elements (with the exception of mixed content
stuff) then each object is not mapped to a parsed elements but more to a
semantic element. For instance, to take your example, the "book" object is
semantically significant as is the title, the author and  the publisher.

So, Michael, I agree, my data model for the 20% of cases where mixed content
is used is probably not more elegant than the actual model. However, for the
80% it may be better and more seamless with macro structures like directory
services. So that, from the macro to the micro, we can have the same model.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book : XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From evermanm at tsainc.com  Tue Feb  1 17:31:36 2000
From: evermanm at tsainc.com (evermanm@tsainc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: What parsers are available now?
Message-ID: <OFB61D8196.A2350EF0-ON86256878.005FCC0E@tsainc.com>

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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Tue Feb  1 17:33:41 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: a real light-weight parser (was: XML: A outside perspective)
Message-ID: <C1256878.005D59B7.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>







From: THOMAS PASSIN <tpassin@idsonline.com> on 28/01/2000 02:45 PM

Please respond to THOMAS PASSIN <tpassin@idsonline.com>

To:   xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
cc:    (bcc: Jean Marc VANEL/EFFIX/fr)

Subject:  Re: XML: A outside perspective


David Megginson  wrote:
<snip/>

... Eventually, they may choose to use XML-based configuration
> and save formats, but even with an XML parser, that's a lot of hassle
> when they can parse line- and field-oriented files within only a few
> lines of code (and they don't have to bundle a parser library either).

It is feasible to make a real light-weight parser ; the model would be the Javascript parser at http://www.jeremie.com/ , having 388 lines. It has no DOM, but in these 388 lines there are 2 views : an
indented tree view with collapse-expand, and a text view with syntaxic colors, and it works with IE and Netscape.
It would not be too difficult to translate that in C++ or/and Java. It would leave aside the UTF-8 / 16 aspect, but for config. files , it would be allright.


On the other hand, if you translate your line-and-field format directly to
xml - and especially if you keep the xml for each record to a separate line
..... This could be just the thing for a project's configuration files.

It's better to have a real XML parser .


Cheers

Jean-Marc



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From jhuddles at rocky.itc.nrcs.usda.gov  Tue Feb  1 17:48:21 2000
From: jhuddles at rocky.itc.nrcs.usda.gov (John Huddleston)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: What parsers are available now?
References: <4.3.0.33.0.20000201085441.00ad6c30@popeye.llnl.gov>
Message-ID: <001701bf6cdc$b7ebebc0$9801010a@gpsr.colostate.edu>

See http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html

----- Original Message -----
From: Norman H. Samuelson <nhs@llnl.gov>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 7:59 AM
Subject: What parsers are available now?


> I'm giving a talk to co-workers tomorrow, promoting XML.  I'd like to
> include a list of the parsers available for XML.  I have concentrated my
> attention on Java for some time now.  I use XML4J from IBM's AlphaWorks.
I
> know that there are parsers for C++ also, and I've heard of others, but
was
> not paying attention at the time.  If anyone could give me a list of good
> XML parsers available for other languages, I would appreciate it.
>
>
> - Norm -
>
> Norman H. Samuelson                  nhs@llnl.gov
> Lawrence Livermore National Lab      925-422-0661
> P.O. Box 808, L-98
> Livermore, CA 94551
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Feb  1 18:10:39 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Introduction
References: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net> <m3aell5bpx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
Message-ID: <3897218E.94BFD287@pacbell.net>

Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
> 
> I don't know what programming language you use, but chances are you
> will find a parser written in it at:
> 
> <URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html#SC_XML >
> 
> The licenses of the free parsers vary. Some have BSD-ish licenses
> (which means you can use them), while others use the GPL, which means
> that you can't use them in a commercial product.

You can use GPL software in commercial products.  Look at all the
Linux vendors, for example.  Depends on the goals of your product.

- Dave

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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Tue Feb  1 18:30:01 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: defense of XML Schema (was: RE: my XSLT equipment)
Message-ID: <C1256878.0063FCE4.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>







From: "Brandt Dainow" <bd@internet-etc.com> on 01/02/2000 03:56 PM

Please respond to "Brandt Dainow" <bd@internet-etc.com>

To:   xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
cc:    (bcc: Jean Marc VANEL/EFFIX/fr)

Subject:  RE: my XSLT equipment


I have to disagree. I think the schema format is MUCH worse to work with. It
is overly long

The spec. is long, it's true, but you don't HAVE TO use all the gadgets in it, they are here in case of need. With <element>, <type>, and <attribute>, you can roughly reproduce the DTD semantics.

(and a drag to code) and adds nothing of value over DTD's.

You can parse the XML Schema just like any XML, you don't have to wait for a DTD API. And then you can generate code to read XML data, make user form, generate queries, adapt to schema variations,
etc.

I'll ignore the fact it is not finished and unstable.

You can make something usable with what we have now, and translate it later to final spec. with a XLST transform, or just stay with this version if your application doesn't evolve.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Jean Marc VANEL
>Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 10:39 AM
>To: xml-dev-ig%PMDF%MHMAIL@mr.effix.fr; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: my XSLT equipment
>
>
>
>
>Translation XML Schema --> DTD
>
>Lots of tools need a DTD, but the  XML Schema is a better
>format to work with (though not completely stable).
>
>A solution is to generate a DTD from the XML Schema using a
>XSLT stylesheet.
>This is simple light-weight solution, and I maintain that you
>don't have to depend on big tools like XML Authority to do this.
>
>Anyone willing to share code for this XSLT stylesheet ?
>
>Jean-Marc
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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From radhika at ans.net  Tue Feb  1 18:33:18 2000
From: radhika at ans.net (Radhika Srivatsa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Installing XML4J parser
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10002011331420.5771-100000@bhavani.aa.ans.net>


Hi,

I have downloaded xml4j off internet. How do I go about using it ?
The makefile out there does not seem to be working for me. Have any of you
been able to use xml4j from the alphaWorks site ?

Thanks.

-Radhika Srivatsa
IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
Voice: (734)214-5970	Fax: (734)214-7343
radhika@ans.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as well.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Tue Feb  1 18:50:44 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (Jim Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <20000201185030.22177.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
> Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:
> > * A means of querying an XMLReader implementations features 
> >   without first having to instantiate an XMLReader.
> 
> That's not too hard: it would take only a few static methods.  There
> are a couple of issues, though:
> 
> 1. For a filter (which may be more common than a root reader), the
>    features available depend on the features supported by the parent
>    -- in other words, you cannot know what features are supported
>    *until* the reader is instantiated.

Wouldn't this depend on the design and / purpose of the filter (maybe I'm
confusing semantics of filter / adapter here so I'll use "wrapper" as a
generic)? If the wrapper requires a reader *instance* to create the wrapper
then the query / selection process would be handled somewhere else and this
wouldn't seem to be an issue. If the wrapper handled creation, it could use
the proposed factory to create. If it was more of an adapter, couldn't it
simply implement and pass through?

> 2. You cannot enforce static methods with an interface, so they would
>    have to be a matter of convention (like a no-argument constructor).

I was pushing static as convention initially, but I believe Miles has a better
approach with the interface. Assuming similar performance (I haven't directly
compared yet), the interface seems more appropriate.

> > * A plug'n'play XMLReader factory which supports multiple 
> >   parsers and transparent adaptation of SAX 1 parsers.
> 
> Does this belong in the SAX core, or should it be a higher-level app?
> I ask because I'm trying to keep the core sax2.jar as small as
> possible, since it will usually be only a minor part of an app.

I certainly wouldn't have a problem with a core / optional split (two jars? or
an implicit you-can-tear-this-out if space is a problem?). I've noticed that
quite a few parsers wind the SAX classes into their jar and you end up (in
multiple parser cases) with several copies of SAX anyway. If it is split, I
would like to see at least the meta-information interface included in the
core. 

> > * An extended ParserAdapter which exposes a SAX 1 parsers
> >   support for validation.
>
> I don't know if this belongs in SAX1 per se, since there's no
> way to know in the general case.  People writing adapters for 
> specific SAX1 parsers (where validation is known) can extend 
> ParserAdapter to add that information.

Maybe SAX1Impl and ValidatingSAX1Impl could simply serve as illustrations of
the technique. The current implementation makes it easy to test with current
(SAX1) parsers but I'd as soon see the system property related logic removed
from ImplEnumeration (even though it does provide more flexibility, at least
on paper - I didn't use the system property thing even with the SAX1 factory)
in the interest of performance and / or streamlining (assuming tearing it out
*does* speed things up - haven't checked that out either). You have to fool
with CLASSPATH to add another parser anyway and it's easy enough to field a
custom jar earlier in the CLASSPATH to produce the effect.

> > * A couple of utility interfaces which bundle up the 
> >   standard SAX 2.0 feature and property identifiers.
> Two issues here:
> 
> 1. I'm trying to limit bloat.

I'll be giving up the 695 bytes one way or the other (for the reasons Miles
stated and 'cause it seems more "readable". Rather see it built in than roll
my own. BTW Miles, shouldn't those strings be "static final"?

> 2. I expect that the list of core feature and property identifiers
>    will be able to grow *without* a new SAX release, so the class
>    would become outdated.

Easy enough then for the users to deal with additions in their own fashion
until / unless there *is* another release (maybe when the deprecated stuff is
tossed in the ash can ;-).

Miles's proposal, if incorporated into SAX2 and if SAX2 is embraced by the
parser builders as universally as was SAX1, fills a portability gap that,
prior to this, required custom logic. Using the factory, I should be able to
field XML related middleware on both UNIX and that Other Platform <grin/>
without (or at least with less) configuration nonsense. This also lets me
handle multiple parser (sorry, *reader*) scenarios elegantly where I do
control which ones live on a particular class of system and what each should
be used for (small/fast vs big/full-featured). While performance *is* a
consideration today (I am working at shaving a few hundred ms here and there
for a couple of apps that need to be *very* hot), I expect this to become much
less of a concern fairly rapidly as the user base continues to update
hardware.

I wouldn't expect Miles' stuff to hinder adoption of SAX2 by the parser folks
and it might even help some by extending the abstraction to reader creation.
 
BTW Miles, thanks for the nod, but all should know that my *bit* was pretty
darn insignificant...

Well, there's my quarter-cents worth. Maybe more when I've had some time to
give all this stuff more than a cursory ride...

Regards,

Jim Layer




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From dcarlson at ontogenics.com  Tue Feb  1 18:55:00 2000
From: dcarlson at ontogenics.com (Dave Carlson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: DTD to UML
References: <C1256878.0055C5E2.00@NOY10302.dgbank.de>
Message-ID: <005d01bf6ce5$b19b0360$0200000a@jewel>

Henry,
You are still one step ahead of the game on this one.  However, the interest
is growing in use of UML to model XML.

I've seen two proposals for adding UML stereotypes that support generation
of XML schemas (DTDs and XML Schema) from the UML class model.  Plus, there
is the OMG XMI spec for a full-blown XML DTD generation from a complete UML
model.  But, going in the reverse -- DTD to UML -- is a bit trickier.  I
have not seen anyone try this yet. It may require some assumptions and/or
design patterns in the DTD that allow you to reverse the forward-direction
mappings.

Check out this white paper from Rational/CommerceOne on mapping UML to XML
schemas:
    http://www.rational.com/uml/resources/documentation/xmlschema33.pdf

Plus, this proposal from Eliot Kimber
  http://www.drmacro.com/hyprlink/uml-dtds.pdf

I find the Rational et al paper to be more straightforward.

Cheers,
  Dave Carlson

----- Original Message -----
From: <henry_fieglein@dgbank.de>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 8:36 AM
Subject: DTD to UML


Does anyone know of a tool which converts a DTD to a UML (or Rational Rose
Diagram)?

Thanks,
Henry Fieglein
DG Bank



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From falk at icon.at  Tue Feb  1 18:59:00 2000
From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Who knows?
Message-ID: <A01C76E644CAD111B83A0000E8D8890E0DBF6B@melange.icon.co.at>

Is XML file valid if an element contains an attribute which is not declared
in a DTD. I could not find exact information in
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 

Please answer only if you are absolutely sure!

Vladislav Gavrielov
Icon Information-Systems

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From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com  Tue Feb  1 19:07:33 2000
From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: In Search of XML Interoperability: XLink + XML Schema =  Inte
	roperability?
Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E01A98D00@crusher.jcals.csc.com>

   This is long, sorry. But it covers a lot.

In search of the holy grail, Roger L. Costello wrote:
> 
>    XML Interoperability: the ability of an application to 
> make effective use of an XML document that it receives.  

   OK.

> There are two ends of the XML Interoperability spectrum:
> [1] At one end of the spectrum an application is coded for a specific
> schema and this is able to make effective use of only XML documents that
> conform to that schema.
> [2] At the other end of the spectrum the application is able to make
> effective use of any XML document that it receives, regardless of the
> schema that the XML document conforms to.

   Key word in [2] is _any_. Possibly to ambitious for starters, walk before
you run and all that.

> I contend that [2] is the desired goal, but [1] is where we are at
> currently.  So, how do we get to [2]?  That's what I wish to explore.
> 
> Question.
> If an application receives an XML document that conforms to a schema for
> which the application has no familiarity, how does the application "make
> effective use" of it?
> 
> Answer.
> From my own life, when I am exposed to a new idea I learn best by
> relating the new idea to something that I already know.  Similarly, if
> an application receives an XML document that contains new, unfamiliar
> elements/attributes then it may be able to still make use of them (the
> unfamiliar elements/attributes) if it can relate them to
> elements/attributes that it knows about.
> <snip/>
> 
> So, what are the key components of XML Interoperability?  There are two
> components:
> (1) Describing Relationships: 
> <snip/>
> (2) Discovering Relationships:
> <snip/>

   Actually, I think there's more to it than that. Not only do we as humans
come to know what things are based on their context, similar past experience
(relationships), etc., but in order to "make effective use" of them we need
to have lots of supplementary information (that we usually take for
granted).

   Also, in order for computers to make effective use of information they
must (as we all know) be programmed very specifically to take the
appropriate action based on given input. For this reason, I believe that not
only does an application need to be able to "accept" a given term, but it
must be able to locate some programmed action to be taken based on that
input.

   There are lots of different ways to approach this goal. The Biztalk
approach (maybe XML.org as well) seems to want to provide a database
something like (but not quite exactly) your relationship database, with the
idea being that once you've made everything accessible you can
straightforwardly map from one vocabulary to another, and maybe process
information based on those mappings instead of the raw input.

   Another approach is that of the ontologies, wishing to define fundamental
concepts which can then hopefully be extrapolated to develop meaningful
processing reagrdless of what terms lie on top of the concepts.

   Another approach might involve some extension/usage of AI or NLP
paradigms. Myself, I've wondered if something like JXML's Coins (which I
haven't had time to investigate) might be suitable for "attaching" code to
data. I also recall seeing something out of Netscape about "action sheets",
which seems to describe this thought.

   This list has also discussed at times the topic of how to give meaning to
data (I believe this was an extension of the 'XML Schema adding semantics
above syntax' threads). Unfortunately, much of the thought behind this
problem to date has been largely theoretical and has done little to prove
any practical application of the ideas. I'm glad you raised this again
Roger, because we'll never get from point [1] to point [2] unless a fairly
simple, generic approach to attaching processing to data can be developed
and accepted. XML has opened the door to interoperability, but we're a long
way from being able to cross the threshold.

<snip topic="XLink and relationships"/>

Michael A. Rossi
mailto:mrossi@jcals.csc.com
856-983-4400 x4911

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From dwshin at nlm.nih.gov  Tue Feb  1 19:12:18 2000
From: dwshin at nlm.nih.gov (Dongwook Shin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Installing XML4J parser
References: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10002011331420.5771-100000@bhavani.aa.ans.net>
Message-ID: <38972B74.FD1691B5@nlm.nih.gov>

Just unzip (Windows) or untar (Unix) the downloaded file
and add "xml4j.jar" in your classpath.
That's all you need to do.
Now enjoy all the classes provided in the document.

Dongwook


Radhika Srivatsa wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have downloaded xml4j off internet. How do I go about using it ?
> The makefile out there does not seem to be working for me. Have any of you
> been able to use xml4j from the alphaWorks site ?
>
> Thanks.
>
> -Radhika Srivatsa
> IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
> Voice: (734)214-5970    Fax: (734)214-7343
> radhika@ans.net
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as well.
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.

--
Dongwook Shin
Visiting Scholar
Lister Hill National Center for Biomedical Communications
National Library of Medicine,
8600 Rockville Pike Bethesda 20894, MD
E-mail: dwshin@nlm.nih.gov
Tel: (301) 435-3257
FAX: (301) 480-3035
URL: http://dlb2.nlm.nih.gov/~dwshin



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Feb  1 19:22:31 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67529D@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Jim Layer wrote,
> If it is split, I would like to see at least the meta-
> information interface included in the core. 

I think that's pretty much essential. All the rest could
happily live in org.xml.sax.ext or whereever.

> [snip: exposing SAX 1 validation]
> The current implementation makes it easy to test with current 
> (SAX1) parsers but I'd as soon see the system property related 
> logic removed from ImplEnumeration (even though it does 
> provide more flexibility, at least on paper
<snip/>
> You have to fool with CLASSPATH to add another parser anyway 
> and it's easy enough to field a custom jar earlier in the 
> CLASSPATH to produce the effect.

I think you're probably right about taking that logic out of
ImplEnumeration. And yes, you're right that there's not a lot
of difference (in terms of difficulty of configuration)
between adding a -D switch and adding something else to the
CLASSPATH. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with
something better. Any suggestions welcome.

> [snip: feature and property String constants]
> BTW Miles, shouldn't those strings be "static final"?

Nope, because data members in _interfaces_ are implicitly
public, static and final, and, according to the rather skimpy
JLS updates at, http://java.sun.com/docs/books/jls/clarify.html

  It is permitted, but strongly discouraged as a matter of 
  style, to redundantly specify any or all of these modifiers 
  for such fields

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From bkline at rksystems.com  Tue Feb  1 19:38:07 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Undeclared attributes [was: Who knows?]
In-Reply-To: <A01C76E644CAD111B83A0000E8D8890E0DBF6B@melange.icon.co.at>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10002011436010.8434-100000@rksystems.com>

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Falk, Alexander wrote:

> Is XML file valid if an element contains an attribute which is not
> declared in a DTD. I could not find exact information in
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210
> 
> Please answer only if you are absolutely sure!

See 3.1 Start-Tags, End-Tags, and Empty-Element Tags: 

  "Validity Constraint: Attribute Value Type
      The attribute must have been declared; the value must be of
      the type declared for it."

1.2 Terminology:

  "validity constraint 
      A rule which applies to all valid XML documents ...."

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From tbray at textuality.com  Tue Feb  1 19:49:32 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Who knows?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000201114751.013c26a0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 07:58 PM 2/1/00 +0100, Falk, Alexander wrote:
>Is XML file valid if an element contains an attribute which is not declared
>in a DTD. I could not find exact information in
>http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210 

No, it's not.  See the notes to production [41]. -Tim


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Tue Feb  1 21:01:35 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: XSLT'ing XML Schema (was my XSLT Equipment)
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7528@THOR>

I have suggested (on Apache and XML Schema comments) using XSLT to "compile"
or "pre-process" XML Schemas for use.  Basically, there are a lot of editing
convienience features (imports, include, type inheritance) that can be
"pre-processed" out before being published.  A parser shouldn't have to go
fetch the "import" and "include" schemas just to do a validation.

That said, the conversion of an XML Schema to a DTD would be the step after
the "compilation" of an full XML schema doc into the subset schema.  The
conversion of a subset schema to DTD should be fairly straight forward using
XSLT, it is the higher level transformations that might be tricky.

Anybody up for a collaborative effort to do this?

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Tue Feb  1 21:17:53 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Oooops. Re: MSXML 2.6
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AD85@RED-MSG-08>

Last week I posted a message saying that the MSXML 2.6 parser incorporates a
change to the handling of namespace declarations in DTDs, as requested by
members of this mailing list.  I was mistaken.  I jumped the gun.  The
change is not in this release; the change will be in the next release, 2.7.
(No, I don't have a date yet for that.)

My apologies,
Andrew Layman

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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk  Tue Feb  1 21:29:36 2000
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Digest
In-Reply-To: <389714FC.27235BC1@syndesis.com>
References: <000e01bf6cd1$3c80c560$ded65c8b@p300>
 <389714FC.27235BC1@syndesis.com>
Message-ID: <v04220804b4bcffb6687d@[155.198.8.97]>

>Hi
>Sorry for this non-xml question.
>Does anybody know how to 'set digest' the messages that come from the list?
>Thank you.
>Liviu
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
>are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.


As you may have noticed from the above, all registrations/unsubscriptions
 for the list, and the digests are now closed.

The latest word from OASIS is that things have been delayed due to 
bad weather in Dallas (surely not snow there?) 

I would suggest, since hopefully we are but days away from relocating,
that issues such as the above are put on hold


Henry Rzepa. Imperial College, Chemistry Dept.
+44 171 594 5774 (Office) +44 171 594 5804 (Fax)

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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Tue Feb  1 22:38:43 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (Jim Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <20000201223839.22501.qmail@wwcst270.netaddress.usa.net>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:
<snip/>
> > The current implementation makes it easy to test with current 
> > (SAX1) parsers but I'd as soon see the system property related 
> > logic removed from ImplEnumeration (even though it does 
> > provide more flexibility, at least on paper
> <snip/>
> > You have to fool with CLASSPATH to add another parser anyway 
> > and it's easy enough to field a custom jar earlier in the 
> > CLASSPATH to produce the effect.
> 
> I think you're probably right about taking that logic out of
> ImplEnumeration. And yes, you're right that there's not a lot
> of difference (in terms of difficulty of configuration)
> between adding a -D switch and adding something else to the
> CLASSPATH. I'll have a think and see if I can come up with
> something better. Any suggestions welcome.

<waffle>
I was perhaps too focused on *my* situation. Nosed around with some crude
(embedded) timing (should have done this first!) and those chunks of logic in
ImplEnumeration don't even show up on the radar. So that's (performance)
probably not a strong reason to tear it out (I doubt size is either) - and the
sort of automatic adapter idea might be helpful to others...
</waffle>
  
> > BTW Miles, shouldn't those strings be "static final"?
<snip/>
>   It is permitted, but strongly discouraged as a matter of 
>   style, to redundantly specify any or all of these modifiers 
>   for such fields

On the money as usual, Miles ;-)

Regards,

Jim Layer

____________________________________________________________________
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From rossl at EDIFECS.COM  Tue Feb  1 22:43:26 2000
From: rossl at EDIFECS.COM (Ross Lemire)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: How do I set up a digest summary rather then individual emails!!!
Message-ID: <8070C3A4E99ED211A63200105A19B99B582FD9@mail.edifecs.com>

How do you set up this list server to just send out one digest per day.
-----Original Message-----
From: Bob Kline [mailto:bkline@rksystems.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2000 11:41 AM
To: Falk, Alexander
Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
Subject: Re: Undeclared attributes [was: Who knows?]


On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Falk, Alexander wrote:

> Is XML file valid if an element contains an attribute which is not
> declared in a DTD. I could not find exact information in
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210
> 
> Please answer only if you are absolutely sure!

See 3.1 Start-Tags, End-Tags, and Empty-Element Tags: 

  "Validity Constraint: Attribute Value Type
      The attribute must have been declared; the value must be of
      the type declared for it."

1.2 Terminology:

  "validity constraint 
      A rule which applies to all valid XML documents ...."

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From rbryan at CapAccess.org  Wed Feb  2 00:54:36 2000
From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: unsubscribe plea
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720201194232.11852F@cap1.capaccess.org>


Thanks to the many of you who offered advise
to one of the more hostile members of your community (myself). 

The reason for my frustration is that I tried all 
of your suggestions.  I've sent unsubscribe email
to the majordomo and various xml-dev-request accounts.
And I sent one directly to the person doing the 
conversion.  The only response to these is messages
stating that I'm not a subscriber.
But I continue to receive 500K messages. 

You see, my email reader won't let me read messages
500K in size due in part to a bug and that I have
a limit on this account of 1Meg at any given time, which
is always exceeded when I get the xml-dev.

Thanks to you who showed me the new "can't unsubscribe"
message.

Also, I don't have a spam filter to use in the meantime 
because all I have is an old version of pine. 

The thing that's most frustrating is that my ISP 
keeps sending me threats to delete my account for going
over the size limits.  I've had this account for 5 years. 
All of my friends from way back know this account.
If I lose it I may lose contact with some people I only 
email with every year or so.

Isn't there something someone could do? 








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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Feb  2 02:14:51 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:45 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000128071621.26755A-100000@grind> <38924B5B.4FDA@hiwaay.net> <200002010355.VAA01335@bruno.techno.com>
Message-ID: <38979220.42EC@hiwaay.net>

Steven R. Newcomb wrote:
> 
> My perspective is that HyTime's main accomplishment, in the
> end, was to make it possible to impose any combination of arbitrary
> structures, rigorously and formally, on any set of components of any
> kinds of information, at any level of granularity.  In effect, to make
> all aspects of all information, everywhere, a single (ginormous)
> queriable database, or to "address any information, anywhere, any
> time, in any convenient terms". 

<snip>

 (Most of the rest of the problem of designing
> HyTime was making sure that all the kinds of imposable structure
> (trees, directed graphs, and schedules) don't trip over each other and
> work nicely together, both semantically and syntactically.)

Then a problem looking for a solution:  In VRML97, we have a monolith 
standard, self-contained, defines its own structures and types.  In 
VRML200x, the scheduled revision, a requirement is to enable multiple 
encodings whose definitional parent is an abstract definition cast 
as an IDL based on the original VRML97 semantics.  The encodings:

1.  The so-named UTF-8 syntax (essentially the original VRML syntax) 
2.  An XML syntax, so named, X3D.

The problem is, VRML97 is rootless.  Its abstract definition of nodes 
and fields where a children field can contain nodes does not map cleanly 
to XML without the use of wrapper elements.  On the surface, it looks
simple: 
map nodes to elements and fields to attributes.  In reality, it doesn't 
work.  Fields can have nodes (type MFNode or SFNode) as members but XML
attributes 
cannot have elements as members.  So in effect, to make the VRML work,
we
create *ugly* XML.  Legal, but ugly.  This ugliness shows up in the DOM 
calls quickly for what are probably obvious reasons.  VRML97 already 
has the 

appearance Appearance { }

and other constructs which are ugly but we are used to them.

Eliot is familiar with VRML97 and the spec is public.  What would the 
groveMasters do with the VRML definition?  I'm not sure much can 
be done to change our course, but at least, this is an opportunity 
to present how what HyTime defines can be applied to a specification 
where XML has failed to solve the dilemmas.

This should concern XMLers.  It will do damage.  XML may not 
be up to the job, abstractly speaking.  It is proof that 
infosets, schemas, DOMs, and so forth, are not enough.

This is also a nice meaty opportunity.  Note that even TimBL has
predicted a 
3D web, and it is emerging.  Economics of VRML aside (there are real 
reasons for the languid state of 3D on the web that have nothing to 
do with VRML97, it takes more platform power so it stays behind 
the text app curve by about a decade), 3D as a host language is looking 
more and more like the next winner of the framework sweepstakes; yet 
the ISO standard may be flawed or at least, ugly where XML is concerned.

> > Authority is choice, and
> > whether as in the Tao, this is opposites, or as in Tao,
> > extremes of the same continuum, intelligence still
> > must choose for community.

> I'll take that as a poem.  (My mysticism parser must be on the fritz.)

Not mystical. Practical as hell;  just obscure.  Why should I change
now? :-)

len


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From lmocz at galatea.com  Wed Feb  2 03:34:08 2000
From: lmocz at galatea.com (Lajos Moczar)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <3897218E.94BFD287@pacbell.net>
References: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
 <m3aell5bpx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000201203021.00946420@mail.henge.com>

Yes, but I think the point is that when you use GPL components in your
commercial products your products are thereby GPL-ed. If you want to
protect your commercial source code, components with straight GPL licenses
won't work.

David Brownell wrote:
>Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
>> 
>> I don't know what programming language you use, but chances are you
>> will find a parser written in it at:
>> 
>> <URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html#SC_XML >
>> 
>> The licenses of the free parsers vary. Some have BSD-ish licenses
>> (which means you can use them), while others use the GPL, which means
>> that you can't use them in a commercial product.
>
>You can use GPL software in commercial products.  Look at all the
>Linux vendors, for example.  Depends on the goals of your product.
>


Lajos Moczar
Galatea IS Inc.


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From gtn at ebt.com  Wed Feb  2 04:16:50 2000
From: gtn at ebt.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <389550A2.E4ADC4D1@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <000d01bf6d33$ca9204b0$0100007f@ebt.com>

>  * the syntax of a language, notation, convention, etc. should not be
> finalized until the data model is worked out. (we violated this rule
> when we invented XML) The syntax should reflect the data model.
> 
>  * an API for a language should not be finalized until the language's
> data model is worked out. The API should reflect the data model.
> 
>  * addressing and query languages should not be finalized until the
> language's data model is worked out. The query languages 
> should reflect
> the data model.

I actually think that syntax is independent of data model, and that
it is not necessary for the API to directly reflect the data model.

A data model is essentially a set of data structures, and an algebra
for manipulating them. How they are exposed through an API is largely
and application dependent question, as is the syntax.


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From gtn at ebt.com  Wed Feb  2 04:16:45 2000
From: gtn at ebt.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D4@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <000c01bf6d33$c74375f0$0100007f@ebt.com>

> Actually, when I was an intern at Sun Labs in 1996, I 
> proposed, along with
> another researcher, a project to build a super-slim browser that was
> essentially a Java run-time environment with SGML support. The UI and
> everything would be downloaded as SGML and relevant helper classes.

You'd have loved some of the things I did at NEC then... but I
used s-expressions.

I proposed to EBT to do this as well, but it never took off.


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Wed Feb  2 05:17:15 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
References: <000d01bf6d33$ca9204b0$0100007f@ebt.com>
Message-ID: <008e01bf6d3d$9fce6700$0101a8c0@tompassin>


Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote:
<snip/>
> I actually think that syntax is independent of data model, and that
> it is not necessary for the API to directly reflect the data model.
>
> A data model is essentially a set of data structures, and an algebra
> for manipulating them. How they are exposed through an API is largely
> and application dependent question, as is the syntax.
>
>
Where many have come to grief is that without a good coherent data model to
work from, you are likely to arrive at a syntax that makes it hard to
express things you end up finding that you want to express.  Everyone has
one or more implicit data models in their head all the time anyway.  When
you develop without making one explicit, you are simply developing to an
implicit and probably incomplete model, one that the others working with you
may not fully agree with.

This may work fine for some projects, but it's a weak base for standards
development.

Tom Passin


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From bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com  Wed Feb  2 06:44:56 2000
From: bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: First/last call for WWW9 XML Dev Day 2000.05.19
Message-ID: <200002020644.WAA21010@boethius.eng.sun.com>

This is the first, last, and only call-from-the-chair for XML
Developers' Day presentations at the Ninth International World
Wide Web conference Friday 19 May 2000 in Amsterdam.  The deadline
for submissions is 15 February.  See http://www.www9.org for
further information about the conference itself.

Since 1997, the XML track at WWW Dev Day has been a central event
for developers of web-related XML software.  If you have new
web-related tools or especially interesting applications that use
any of the XML family of core standards -- such as XLink,
XPointer, XSL, XML Schemas, or the DOM -- here is your chance to
share your latest accomplishments with other advanced workers.

Proposals of 1-3 paragraphs clearly describing the presentation
should be sent in plain text directly to the chair of the Dev Day
XML track, Jon Bosak:

   bosak@eng.sun.com

Remember, submissions must be mailed no later than Tuesday 15
February to be considered.

TIPS FOR PRESENTERS

Prospective presenters wishing to increase their chances of being
chosen for the program are well advised to read this long
paragraph that at first glance appears to consist entirely of
tedious instructions that no hard-charging industry mover and/or
shaker would bother to waste his precious time reading but upon
further investigation proves to contain information about several
tests that will be used to sort the good stuff from the corporate
crud that always comes in by the bushel in response to calls for
XML papers.  Submissions that stand a chance of being considered
will have the following properties.  First, they will be in plain
text as clearly specified above and not in some hideous
machine-generated HTML dialect or proprietary word processing
format.  People who honestly do not know what their software is
putting out will no doubt be forgiven their ignorance at the end
of days but are not the kind we want to hear from in this track.
Second, successful proposals will include a short title suitable
for a conference program and an abstract of the proposed
presentation rather than a request for my opinion about what might
constitute a good topic.  Third, they will be sent in by the
presenters themselves and not by the presenters' secretaries,
managers, or marketing people.  And fourth, they will describe
genuinely new and interesting developments or approaches --
preferably featuring running code -- rather than attempting to use
the world's premier WWW technical forum as a stage for some
tiresome commercial product pitch.

Down here where only the truly dedicated will read it is another
solicitation.  XML is becoming Establishment Technology; it's time
for some controversy.  I would like to have one good inflammatory
presentation on the schedule.  If you have an ax to grind and can
do so in an interesting and entertaining manner, send a proposal.

See you in Amsterdam!

Jon



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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Feb  2 07:04:45 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Introduction
References: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
	 <m3aell5bpx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> <3.0.5.32.20000201203021.00946420@mail.henge.com>
Message-ID: <3897D708.D369AFA9@pacbell.net>

Lajos Moczar wrote:
> 
> Yes, but I think the point is that when you use GPL components in your
> commercial products your products are thereby GPL-ed. If you want to
> protect your commercial source code, components with straight GPL licenses
> won't work.

I'm aware of what it means to include GPL'd code, ergo my comment
about goals.  Commercial != closed-source unless you believe what
Sun has to say about such issues.  Both closed and open source options
exist ... and there's a clear trend of late to use the latter unless
there's some compelling issue (e.g. external licences, patents, etc)
that precludes such choices. 

- Dave




> David Brownell wrote:
> >Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't know what programming language you use, but chances are you
> >> will find a parser written in it at:
> >>
> >> <URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/cat_ix.html#SC_XML >
> >>
> >> The licenses of the free parsers vary. Some have BSD-ish licenses
> >> (which means you can use them), while others use the GPL, which means
> >> that you can't use them in a commercial product.
> >
> >You can use GPL software in commercial products.  Look at all the
> >Linux vendors, for example.  Depends on the goals of your product.
> >
> 
> Lajos Moczar
> Galatea IS Inc.
>

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 08:47:30 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves (from Eliot Kimber)
Message-ID: <E12FvRU-000JZx-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

Posted on behalf of Eliot Kimber [for technical list reasons].

[Editorial comment - this is the sort of posting that we need to identify
and keep for reference.]


>EliotX-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000
>Message-ID: <38963E05.F1E03297@drmacro.com>
>Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 19:59:33 -0600
>From: Eliot Kimber <drmacro@drmacro.com>
>X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (Win98; I)
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: XML Dev <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
>Subject: Re: Seeking a Dao of Groves
>References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000128071621.26755A-100000@grind>
<38924B5B.4FDA@hiwaay.net>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>[I originally sent this Sunday 30 Jan but I never saw it posted. My
>applogies if it appears twice.]
>
>Len Bullard wrote:
>
>> Why?  Politics and personalities are what they are, power, tactics
>> all of that, but they get us no closer to understanding HyTime. It
>> is true that I was around a bit after hyTime emerged, and worked
>> with its inventors.  It is true that by the time we got to the
>> Vancouver conference, and after some experience, I no longer had
>> the foggiest idea what Eliot and Steven were saying in their
>> presentations.
>
>And us you, Len :-)
> 
>> HyTime is brilliant, but brilliance blinds as well as illuminates.
>> Sometimes the best position for a light is behind, above and slightly
>> to the left.  So, a statement for finding the position:  standards
>> derail, in my experience, when the problem to be solved by them is
>> not (adequately understood | clearly stated | closed).  I am asking
>> Dr. Newcomb, the only one besides Dr. Goldfarb on this list who
>> was there at the beginning to verify or refute the following, and
>> fill in the rationale.  I would be delighted if Dr Goldfarb would
>> help.
>
>Steve hasn't responded yet, so I'll take the liberty of providing some
>answers as I believe I can do so with some authority.
> 
>> 1.  True or False:  hyTime started (little H deliberate as a music
>> standard.  
>
>True.  
>
>             The problem(s) to be solved were synchronization and an
>> application language for a musical notation.  What requirements of music
>> made the hyTime designers move into a larger scope of standardization
>> (Intergrated Open Hypermedia:  Bibliographic Model).
>
>The story that I have been told by Dr's Goldfard and Newcomb is that it
>was the U.S. DoD who said "this synchronization stuff is just what we
>need for things like battlefield planning and management, but if we put
>a music standard in our RFQs, we'll be laughed out of the Pentagon, so
>can y'all do us a favor and pull the generic stuff out into a separate
>standard? We'd be ever so grateful." Not being idiots, they did.
>
>There was also, I think, the general realization by the committee that
>the structures needed to do the synchronization required by music,

>opera, ballet, and other forms of time-based stuff are in fact general
>to a wide range of problems.  They could define a general facility and
>then use it as the underpinnings of a more specialized music
>representation standard (Standard Music Description Language, which
>Steve and I are trying to finish up now, as a matter of fact).
> 
>> 2.  True of False:  There originally WAS a hyTime DTD.  Why was
>> it abandoned?
>
>True. It was abandoned because a "DTD for HyTime" didn't solve the
>problem. You needed to be able to create your own documents, with your
>own element types and semantics, that took advantage of the generic
>linking and scheduling semantics that HyTime codified. The early drafts
>used complex systems of parameter entities but it was quickly realized
>that that wouldn't work, so they came up with the idea of architectures
>as a way of mapping from specialized document types to the general types
>defined by the HyTime standard.
>
>This is, for example, exactly what XLink does, for the same reason.
>
>HyTime is not, like HTML, simply about creating *a single way* to create
>hypertext documents. It's about enabling *any document* to also be a
>hypertext document. The second is inherently more complex than the
>first, but also much much more powerful.  This is why XLink is cool but
>also why it's more difficult to understand and implement than HTML.
> 
>> 3.  When at its most widely studied, HyTime included an exhaustive
>> set of linking and location models.  At this point, the synchronization
>> facility was expressed using these.  Why did linking and location become
>> the dominant feature of HyTime?
>
>I think linking and addressing became dominant for at least three
>reasons:
>
>1. Linking and addressing are of immediate benefit to almost all typical
>SGML/XML applications (e.g., technical documentation in all its myriad
>forms). Therefore the first applications of any part of HyTime were
>going to be in linking applications. That was certainly what interested
>me in HyTime initially (we needed to SGMLify the already sophisticated
>linking in IBM's BookMaster application and HyTime seemed a very close
>match to our existing requirements). Tools like SoftQuad Panorama/Synex
>Viewport made it easy to use HyTime-based hyperlinking, at least in
>simple ways.  Most SGML practioners already understood hyperlinking (or
>at least the requirement for it), so it was easier for them to see how
>HyTime could be of some value there.
>
>2. Scheduling is much more involved than linking and much more difficult
>to implement from scratch. In 1992, people were still struggling to get
>industrial-strength SGML page-model presentation systems implemented.
>What work was being done on the hypermedia parts of HyTime was being
>done in universities by people like Lloyd Rutledge. It was also very
>abstract and difficult to understand, certainly from the standard alone.
>The pool of people who might be interested in it was small at best and
>many, if not most, of them were already engaged in more immediate
>concerns, like implementing the linking parts of HyTime.  This is still
>largely the case, although things like SMIL are helping us to better

>understand the problem space.  This is really an area where you have to
>have a concrete application to really understand it or even be motivated
>to implement it. The folks who undertand this part of HyTime best are
>still largely engaged in putting bread on their table and getting some
>basic infrastructure components implemented. But we are very close to
>having the technology base we need to make implementing the scheduling
>part of HyTime, if not easy, at least practical.
>
>3. The people who have the most to gain from implementing the scheduling
>stuff have the least ability to realize it: educators and archivists.
>HyTime is ultimately about providing an interchange/archival
>representation form for hypermedia information. This is of vital
>importance to educators who need to be able to create rich information
>presentations that are information system and presentation platform
>independent (that is, apply to hypermedia the same benefits of generic
>markup that technical information has enjoyed for years). It is of vital
>importance to archivists (how many people realize that there exists
>today *no standard way* to archive music except as print scores?). 
>However, these are two groups of people who have little money to spend
>on implementing standards like HyTime and, because they have little
>money, little influence on companies that could implement it.
>
>If you're Macromedia or Adobe, what financial motivation do you have to
>implement HyTime? Your biggest customers make untold millions of dollars
>selling the stuff they develop with your tools, so much profit that the
>cost of authoring and reauthoring is noise, no matter what it costs,
>because the authoring cost is a fraction of the total cost, such that
>optimizing it further would provide little absolute benefit to the
>business. Will you listen to the Disneys and Origins and Dreamworks of
>the world or to the people at the Texas School for the Blind who want an
>easy and sustainable way to make tommorrow's multimedia curriculum
>usable by the visually impaired (how do you run a point-and-click
>tutorial if you can't see the screen? How do you learn from it if you
>can't hear the words? How do you run it if you are paralyzed from the
>neck down?)?
>
>Len and I know that Macromedia director would be a much more useful and
>interesting tool if it could save information in a HyTime-conforming
>format, but what motivation does anyone at Macromedia have to even learn
>that fact, much less put it into practice? Absolutely none. At least
>until the same legislators who are requiring both more multimedia
>content in schools and fully-accessible materials for all students
>realize that these two requirements cannot be met by current technology
>and make the use of HyTime (or its functional equivalent) required by
>law.
> 
>> 4.  True or False:  Groves are a concept borrowed from DSSSL, a
>> style language, itself, originally that was altered to include
>> Semantics.  
>
>False. Groves are a concept that both DSSSL and HyTime needed in order
>to be both compatible with each other and fully defined as standards.
>Both DSSSL and HyTime had notions of abstract trees, but neither had

>defined them formally. When, in 1995, it was realized that these two
>standards could not be completed unless they were based on the same
>basic model of what an SGML document is, the two working groups came
>together to develop a common technical solution to the problem. Groves
>were the result. The technical details came more or less equally from
>Charles Goldfarb, James Clark, and Peter Newcomb, with important
>contributions by the usual cast of suspects, including myself. 
>
>[As far as I know, the DSSSL standard always included the word
>"semantics" in its title (whatever that means--I'll leave that to Sharon
>Adler to explain).]
>
>  What requirement in a linking and location standard
>> resulted in a unification with the DSSSL groves concept?
>
>The requirement for a common underlying abstract model of what an SGML
>document is. Both DSSSL and HyTime depend on the ability to do
>addressing. DSSSL so that you can associate style with things, HyTime so
>that you can relate things together. To do addressing, you must formally
>define the structure of the thing being addressed. To do this you must
>have a formalism for talking about structures. That's what groves are.
>HyTime had the additional requirement that it had to be applicable to
>*all data types*, not just SGML/XML (with groves, DSSSL can also be
>applied to any type of data, but the standard as written does not
>explicitly recognize this fact). Therefore, it was not enough to define
>a formal model for SGML documents, we had to have a formalism from which
>the abstract model for any kind of data (including SGML) could be
>defined.
>
>Another requirement was that both standards needed a *fundamentally
>different view* of SGML documents that reflected the optimizations
>required by their differing uses. In particular, DSSSL needed to see
>processing instructions and individual characters while HyTime wanted to
>ignore processing instructions (by default) and treat sequences of
>characters as single objects for the purpose of addressing. 
>
>This requirement is reflected in groves through the "grove plan", which
>lets you say for a given grove type what things you do or don't want to
>see at the moment. This provided a formal way in which DSSSL and HyTime
>could both be based on the same SGML data model yet have different,
>incompatible default views.  This is a complicating factor for groves
>that could not be avoided (and turns out to be of tremendous utility in
>practice).
> 
>> disaster.  So, yes, time for some simplifications.  Perhaps
>> understanding the way another standard tried to solve the
>> same problems is a clarifying experience.
>
>I don't think it's necessarily time for simplificiations. What it is
>time for is stepping back and providing some basic definitional
>framework for all of the W3C specs. Ultimately, defining good
>abstractions simplifies the system by centralizing design and
>implementation effort and knowledge that would otherwise have to be
>replicated everywhere it was needed. Every XML-related specification
>needs a formal abstract data model for what XML (and possibly other
>stuff) is, and to date each specification has either defined its own

>(XLink/XPointer) or left it implicit (DOM). This makes the total much
>more complicated than it needs to be.
>
>The reason that the HyTime standard is so big is that it defines all of
>the infrastructure needed by the *relatively simple* HyTime
>architecture. That is, the linking and addresing parts of HyTime are
>relatively simple, taking no more than 80 pages to define (comparable to
>XLink, although bigger because it offers more facilities and more syntax
>choices). But to define the facilities of HyTime with something
>approaching mathematical precision, you need the following:
>
>1. A standardized, generic, abstract data representation facility
>(property sets and groves). You need this so that you can define
>addressing and other processing semantics without reference to any
>particular data type or implementation.
>
>2. A standardized, generic facility for mapping from any document to the
>syntax and semantics of the HyTime architecture (the Architectural Forms
>Definition Requirements (AFDR) annex). 
>
>3. A standardized definition of the abstract data model for SGML
>documents, defined in terms of item 1 (the SGML Property Set annex).
>
>4. A general architecture that defines those things the HyTime
>architecture needs that are not specifically related to linking and
>scheduling and that are useful to almost any SGML or XML application
>(the General Architecture).
>
>These are four of 6 annexes that make up the "SGML Extended Facilities".
>The other two, Formal System Identifiers, and Lexical Type Definition
>Requirements, are not strictly required in order to define the HyTime
>architecture, but are useful nevertheless and represent long-standing
>requirements on SGML.
>
>Obviously, these should all be separate standards, published under
>separate cover, and referenced from HyTime, but for historical reasons,
>we did it backward and this is what we have. SC34/WG3 (the working group
>responsible for the HyTime standard) has discussed doing this breakup at
>some point in the future, but it's not being actively pursued at this
>time because the people who would do it (me) are too busy with other
>stuff just now.
>
>I observe that the W3C is making *exactly the same mistake* we made in
>not building the underlying necessary prerequisites first before trying
>to do things like define abstract models for XML documents and generic
>linking mechanisms. We have the excuse that we didn't know what we were
>doing because nobody had done it before. The W3C doesn't have that
>excuse.
>
>We are seeing all sorts of problems with the various specs that stem
>entirely from the lack of well-defined and agreed upon definitions for
>fundamentals. When we published the XML spec we said, as a working group
>"this spec is really not complete without a formal definition of the
>abstract representation of XML documents" but we knew we couldn't afford
>to delay the spec in order to do that [Remember that two of the people
>chiefly responsible for the development of groves, James Clark and
>myself, were founding members of the XML Working Group.] Our expectation
>was that doing that definition would be the next order of business, in

>large part because we knew from experience that both XLink and XSL
>required it. Obviously, history took a different route and we are now
>left where we are, with the DOM defining an API over an unspecified data
>model, both XLink/XPointer and XSL defining their own hand-waved
>abstract models, info set still being worked on, and schemas only just
>now waking up to fact that they need an abstract data model as well.
>
>EVERYONE INVOLVED SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER. Many did. Lord knows I
>brought it up at every opportunity.
>
>I know that a lot of people got suckered into thinking that "XML is
>easy" and that therefore doing things like XLink and XSL and XML Schema
>will be easy too, in explicit contrast to HyTime, which is "hard". But
>of course that's a Big Lie. To the degree XML was "easy" (in the sense
>that it only took 18 months from the forming of the WG to publishing of
>the Rec) it was because it required no invention, it only required
>paring away those parts of SGML we really didn't need. That doesn't
>require any grasping of complex abstractions or layers of mapping or
>obtuse concepts like out-of-line links. But *everything after that
>does*. Defining and understanding the abstractions needed to build a
>complete system of standards is hard. It's hard intellectually, it's
>hard politically, it's hard socially, it's hard from a business
>perspective. A lot of people are simply not capable of working with or
>understanding abstractions. I've known many crackerjack programmers who
>could solve very difficult algorithmic and data structure problems who
>could never grasp groves (and not for lack of trying). With HyTime, we
>had the significant advantage that we were a fairly small group of
>people who worked very well together. We had no commercial interests to
>distract us. By contrast, the W3C is, by it's nature, a set of very
>large groups of very diverse personalities and many competing commercial
>interests. It should be absolutely no surprise that progress has been as
>slow as it has been. In fact it's a surprise to me that any progress has
>been made at all. [Jon Bosak and the W3C leadership have done some
>admirable work in refining the W3C processes to try to work around some
>of these inherent problems.]
>
>I have no illusion that the world will some day wake up and embrace
>HyTime '97 as it exists today. It's big. It's complex, it's hard to
>grasp in many ways.  But I do fully expect that what we learned from
>doing HyTime will eventually influence whatever gets put into practice
>over the next 20 years. I do expect that people will realize that what's
>in HyTime *is there because it has to be there* and that if they want a
>system of standards that will serve them well for a long time (i.e.,
>more than 5 or 10 years) that they will need to build those sorts of
>things too. If they choose to borrow directly from HyTime, I will be
>very pleased, but if they invent their own stuff, that's ok too. We
>learn by doing. I certainly did.
>
>I doubt that much of the infrastructure defined by the HyTime standard
>will be used as is--it's too tied to SGML-specific ways of doing things;

>it reflects the best thinking of 1995, not 2005. But there is a lot of
>good stuff to be learned from what's there, a lot of valuable knowledge
>and mistakes that can be had for the low low price of actually reading
>the spec (and maybe asking some questions of gurus)
><ftp://ftp.ornl.gov/pub/sgml/wg8/document/n1920/html/>.
>
>Steve mentioned that I resigned from the W3C in protest. That's true. I
>also resigned because I had run out of patience trying to get people to
>understand the difficult technical issues that we had spent the last 10
>years coming to understand as we developed the HyTime and DSSSL specs. I
>decided to take my experience and put it to practical use solving
>immediate problems for clients who would not only listen to me but pay
>me too!
>
>Since that time I've been involved in several HyTime-based projects
>where we've put all much of it into production and are continuing to do
>so. I've helped Steve's company get their GroveMinder[tm] product into
>production so we can use grove-based technology to solve people's
>problems. I tried to build a demonstration HyTime engine and gave it
>away (PHyLIS, www.phylis.com). Because I focus on large-scale systems,
>most of what is being developed in the W3C is not even relevant to what
>I'm doing at the moment, except to the degree that the information
>produced is eventually emitted in XML. But because I already have HyTime
>largely implemented, I don't have to wait for XLink to be finished or
>for someone to implement XML Schema. But I also realize that I am, at
>least today, fairly unique in this regard (although not as unique as you
>might think, given that you can buy GroveMinder--I know that, for
>example, ISOGEN's worthy competitor Calian has HyTime knowledge and
>experience that is almost comparable to ours [they don't employ any
>members of the HyTime editorial staff]). And there are people out there
>who don't or can't talk about what they're doing with HyTime, but they
>are out there.
>
>I fully expect that the W3C's efforts to develop XML-based
>specifications will generate important new insights into how to solve
>basic problems in information management and, eventually, provide more
>powerful tools than I have today and I look forward to that eagerly. But
>I certainly don't lose any sleep because I don't have them today. In the
>mean time, all I can see is a lot very bright and hard working people
>working at an essentially futile task and spinning a lot of wheels, all
>because the fundamentals are being ignored. It's a shame, but so is
>world hunger and there's not much I can do about that either except to
>make what small contributions I can.
>
>Cheers,
>
>E.
> 

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 09:01:17 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: LISTADMIN: RE: unsubscribe plea
In-Reply-To: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720201194232.11852F@cap1.capaccess.org>
Message-ID: <E12Fvey-000KSt-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

At 07:57 PM 2/1/72 -0500, Randy Bryan wrote:
>
>Thanks to the many of you who offered advise
>to one of the more hostile members of your community (myself). 
>
>The reason for my frustration is that I tried all 
>of your suggestions.  I've sent unsubscribe email
>to the majordomo and various xml-dev-request accounts.
>And I sent one directly to the person doing the 
>conversion.  The only response to these is messages
>stating that I'm not a subscriber.
>But I continue to receive 500K messages. 

[... difficult with ISP problem snipped ...]

I am answering instead of Henry (who has other unavoidable commitments
beyond his control). I sympathise [I do all my e-mail domestically and run
into similar - but not identical problems.]

The position is that Henry cannot for (a) physical and (b) institutional
reasons manage the subscriber list at present. [The closure was to protect
against new subscriptions.] The transfer to OASIS *is* proceeding - please
accept that *my* giving details would not be useful. 

In passing, I should again point out these problems are th tip of the
iceberg that Henry has had to deal with every week for the last three
years. We all owe him a great deal of gratitude.

Meanwhile all I can ask is:
	PLEASE DO NOT POST UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGES TO THE LIST. 
	PLEASE DO NOT REPEAT ANY DISCUSSION ON UNSUBSCRIPTION.

	P.



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 09:30:47 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: SAX (Introduction, Recomandations, Future...)
In-Reply-To: <m3wvop6rkj.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Jean Georges PERRIN"'s message of "Mon, 31 Jan 2000 13:53:14 +0100">
 <NDBBIAIPJBHEKEDFKCJGAEAODGAA.jgp@4js.com>
Message-ID: <E12Fw7X-000MfM-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

At 07:22 AM 2/1/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>"Jean Georges PERRIN" <jgp@4js.com> writes:
>
>> I've been playing a bit with DOM and understood that DOM is maintained and
>> updated by the W3C.
>> 
>> What about SAX ?
>> 
>> How did it appear ?
>
>We built it collaboratively here on XML-Dev.
>

The history is quoted in valuable detail on the URL that David gives.

>> Who's in charge of it ?
>
>I am, but not in any legal sense.  SAX is in the Public Domain, so
>there's no legal barrier to stop you (or anyone else) from rereleasing
>the same thing, with or without changes, and calling it SAX or
>anything else.
>
>So far, the development community has agreed to accept whatever I end
>up releasing as "SAX", provide that there's a lot of discussion
>first. Of course, that could change at any time.

I should add that SAX **code** has a unique namespace defined by xml.org,
i.e. the Java classes are of the form org.xml.sax.*

This domain name 'belongs' to Jon Bosak, who gave permission for it to be
used **for the purpose above only**. This does not imply that any SAX
resources are located on any server under that domain and it is my
understanding that this domain name is not available for any similar
purpose. [Have I got this right, Jon?] Nor does it imply any ownership of SAX.

My impression is that most parser writers write SAX-aware code. I am not
aware of compliance tests and I suspect that the API has been sufficiently
well defined and discussed that most SAX implementations "do the right
thing". On the other hand the OASIS/NIST tests showed there is considerable
non-compliance in parsers themselves. Would SAX compliance tests be useful? 

As David says SAX is in the public domain as a de facto protocol/API. It is
up to the community where it goes - if anywhere -  from there. I am sure
that XML-DEV is the right place to discuss it.

	P.



>
>> Where can I find specs, API description, etc. ?
>
>  http://www.megginson.com/SAX/
>


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 09:38:52 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
In-Reply-To: <003101bf6c5d$5f887540$0101a8c0@tompassin>
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
Message-ID: <E12FwFM-000NP3-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

At 09:38 PM 1/31/00 -0500, THOMAS PASSIN wrote:
>The "</TABLE/>" tag is not legal in xml or html.  

For those who actually need to output non-wellformed documents from XSLT,
James Clark's XT has an extension (nxml) in the documentation and the
demos. [I use this to build lists of <!ENTITY... for example.]

It took me a little while to find this so I assume there is no universal
way for doing this using core XSLT without extensions (James usually writes
exactly those extensions which people find they need but didn't realise!).

	P.



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From asdf1234asdf at gmx.de  Wed Feb  2 09:42:04 2000
From: asdf1234asdf at gmx.de (tm assd)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
References: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720131201637.16202A-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>
Message-ID: <23956.949484520@www14.gmx.net>



-- 
Sent through Global Message Exchange - http://www.gmx.net


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From J.F.D.Hadden at lboro.ac.uk  Wed Feb  2 09:53:22 2000
From: J.F.D.Hadden at lboro.ac.uk (Jeremy Hadden)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
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From ho at seng.co.jp  Wed Feb  2 10:10:09 2000
From: ho at seng.co.jp (Ho Chin Wah)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <000301bf6a3f$6e1bc1e0$03877d9e@lboro.ac.uk>
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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Wed Feb  2 10:12:49 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEMPEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <38980386.97C9F7AB@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

I am building a web site which I'd like to be show case of XML
technologies ;=) and I have read with great interest your Table of
Content Pattern which can be used as a site map.

I'd like to suggest to add an identifier to the topic element.

I may have missed something, but I haven't found in either XLINK or the
TOC Pattern a mechanism to address a resource without using a URI which
is dependent of the physical layout of the site.

As a web designer, I'd prefer (at least during the design phase...) to
be able to use logical identifiers which are independent of the physical
layout.

It could be done by adding a "name" attribute to the topic entity.

Thanks

Eric

Didier PH Martin wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Since this afternoon I got some comments and myself, I checked again the
> document. This lead to a new version which is posted at:
> 
> http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm
> 
> Up to now, we have an offer from Betty L. Harvey to host the XML-DEV
> Editorial content. We'll wait a couple of days for an answer from OASIS.
> Thanks for your generous offer Betty.
> 
> Didier PH Martin
> ----------------------------------------------
> Email: martind@netfolder.com
> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From jess_nemis at inod.com  Wed Feb  2 10:57:13 2000
From: jess_nemis at inod.com (jess_nemis@inod.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <0002029494.AA949488875@atrain.inod.com>

     unsubscribe


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From costello at mitre.org  Wed Feb  2 11:56:55 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Updated XML Schema Tutorial
Message-ID: <38981BE2.DCADB1FA@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

Since my original post about a month ago I have been busy updating my
XML Schema Tutorial.  I have added a lot of new stuff, fixed the typos,
and have added a complete set of labs (with answers).  The labs start by
creating a simple XML Schema.  Each lab modifies and extends the
previous lab.  By the tenth lab you have created a very sophisticated,
elegant schema.  Here's the URL to the tutorial:

        <http://www.xfront.com/xml-schema.html>

/Roger


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From martind at netfolder.com  Wed Feb  2 12:47:03 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <000d01bf6d33$ca9204b0$0100007f@ebt.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEFOENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi

Gavin Thomas said:
I actually think that syntax is independent of data model, and that
it is not necessary for the API to directly reflect the data model.

A data model is essentially a set of data structures, and an algebra
for manipulating them. How they are exposed through an API is largely
and application dependent question, as is the syntax.

Didier replies:
However, the choice of the interface granularity, the members, even the
parameters are still very dependent on the data model. So, there is a high
level of linkage between the data model and the API. It is not as
independent as you seem to believe.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Wed Feb  2 13:06:13 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
In-Reply-To: <38980386.97C9F7AB@dyomedea.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEFOENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Eric,

Thanks for the comment about the namespace identifier. I am actually adding
a schema and a namespace document encoded with a format we are designing
with James Tauber and Francois Beauregard.

Can you expand more on your suggestion about the logical identifier.

thanks
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Eric van der Vlist [mailto:vdv@dyomedea.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 5:15 AM
To: Didier PH Martin
Cc: 'XML Dev'
Subject: Re: New version of the Table of contents document


Hi,

I am building a web site which I'd like to be show case of XML
technologies ;=) and I have read with great interest your Table of
Content Pattern which can be used as a site map.

I'd like to suggest to add an identifier to the topic element.

I may have missed something, but I haven't found in either XLINK or the
TOC Pattern a mechanism to address a resource without using a URI which
is dependent of the physical layout of the site.

As a web designer, I'd prefer (at least during the design phase...) to
be able to use logical identifiers which are independent of the physical
layout.

It could be done by adding a "name" attribute to the topic entity.

Thanks

Eric

Didier PH Martin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Since this afternoon I got some comments and myself, I checked again the
> document. This lead to a new version which is posted at:
>
> http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm
>
> Up to now, we have an offer from Betty L. Harvey to host the XML-DEV
> Editorial content. We'll wait a couple of days for an answer from OASIS.
> Thanks for your generous offer Betty.
>
> Didier PH Martin
> ----------------------------------------------
> Email: martind@netfolder.com
> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
>
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 13:30:05 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "31 Jan 2000 18:04:46 -0500"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675291@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m33drdj10x.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <u9013wx4g.fsf_-_@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Miles> Miles Sabin <URL:mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>
David> David Megginson <URL:mailto:david@megginson.com>


0> In article
0> <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675291@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>,
0> Miles wrote:

Miles> * A means of querying an XMLReader implementations features
Miles>   without first having to instantiate an XMLReader.


0> In article <m33drdj10x.fsf@localhost.localdomain>, ...

[David, your mail system and/or host config is broken.  Try setting
the `system-name' variable in your Emacs.  Also search the ding-list
archives for the string "localhost.localdomain" - somewhere there's a
patch that might help.]


0> In article <m33drdj10x.fsf@localhost.localdomain>, David wrote:

David> That's not too hard: it would take only a few static methods.


Without resorting to Reflection, it's not that easy.  Invoking a
static method requires either an instance, or compile-time knowledge
of the class name.  I haven't thought about the issues in a non-Java
environment.


David> There are a couple of issues, though:
David>
David> 1. For a filter (which may be more common than a root reader),
David>    the features available depend on the features supported by
David>    the parent -- in other words, you cannot know what features
David>    are supported *until* the reader is instantiated.

It would be nice if Miles gave some thought to this issue.  Perhaps
it's an insoluble problem; perhaps filters need some additional
feature types (or additional queries on those features) to indicate
how the the upstream parser's behaviour is modified.  The obvious
ones are:

1. "passthrough" - the filter provides whatever the upstream parser
   does, unchanged.

2. "override" - *EITHER* the filter supports the feature, even if the
   upstream parser doesn't *OR* the filter doesn't support the feature,
   regardless of the upstream support for it.

3. "other" - the feature's support depends on more than only the
   upstream parser's support for it; perhaps it depends also on
   another feature of the upstream parser.

David> 2. ...


Miles> * A plug'n'play XMLReader factory which supports multiple
Miles>   parsers and transparent adaptation of SAX 1 parsers.

David> Does this belong in the SAX core, or should it be a
David> higher-level app?

I second the support in this thread for maintaining SAX in two parts,
as a core and a(n| set of) extension package(s), if possible.  It
would be nice to save developers re-inventing the same wheels, and
the "SAX blessing" would help keep effort focused in one place, but
there's no need to impose the extra weight on those to whom leanness
is king.

-- 


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Wed Feb  2 13:42:32 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com> <E12FwFM-000NP3-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <003301bf6d84$2c4b3460$0101a8c0@tompassin>

Peter Murray-Rust replied to a post of mine:

> At 09:38 PM 1/31/00 -0500, THOMAS PASSIN wrote:
> >The "</TABLE/>" tag is not legal in xml or html.
>
> For those who actually need to output non-wellformed documents from XSLT,
> James Clark's XT has an extension (nxml) in the documentation and the
> demos. [I use this to build lists of <!ENTITY... for example.]
>
> It took me a little while to find this so I assume there is no universal
> way for doing this using core XSLT without extensions (James usually
writes
> exactly those extensions which people find they need but didn't realise!).
>
> P.

Just to round out this topic, with the latest versions of xslt you can also
emit legal HTML that is not wellformed XML by using the <xsl:output
method="html"/> tag.  xslt processors that are up-to-date with the standard,
like XT, can do this.  There are also other non-xml options.

Tom Passin


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 13:55:13 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: In Search of XML Interoperability: XLink + XML Schema = 
  Interoperability?
In-Reply-To: <3896EE27.2A349606@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <E12G0FJ-000Jsj-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

At 09:31 AM 2/1/00 -0500, Roger L. Costello wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>I have a few thoughts about XML Interoperability that I would like to
>kick around with ya'll.
>
>First, a definition of XML Interoperability:
>
>Definition.
>   XML Interoperability: the ability of an application to make effective
>                         use of an XML document that it receives.  
>
>There are two ends of the XML Interoperability spectrum:
>[1] At one end of the spectrum an application is coded for a specific
>schema and this is able to make effective use of only XML documents that
>conform to that schema.
>[2] At the other end of the spectrum the application is able to make
>effective use of any XML document that it receives, regardless of the
>schema that the XML document conforms to.

I think this describes excellently the problem that I have been wrestling
with for at least 2 years and probably more. My archetypal situation (which
occurs frequently in technical documents) is that Alice wishes to include a
chunk of CML (Chemical Markup Language) in a document to send to Bob who
doesn't even know Alice exists. She wants him to be able to read this (we
might assume he is a chemist). The CML is a small part of the document,
examples being:
	- a patent
	- a New Drug Application
	- a scientific paper

At present the chemical community works roughly on a non-XML model [1],
using the de facto MIME chemical/* approach  developed by Henry Rzepa and
me. There is a working agreement in the community that to process this we
download a free chemical viewer and install it and there are probably >
10**4 sites that can do this. But many others are not primarily chemical.
They get:

	MIME: text/xml
	<cml:molecule xmlns:cml;"http://www.xml-cml.org">...
where do they go from there?


>I contend that [2] is the desired goal, but [1] is where we are at
>currently.  So, how do we get to [2]?  That's what I wish to explore.

Fully agreed.

>
[...]

>Okay, this message is long enough.  Any comments?  /Roger

I think this is vitally important. I suspect that solutions will be de
facto at first, so that airing them on XML-DEV is an effective way forward.
[If there are other initiatives, we'll hear about them in that way.] I
believe there is a critical mass of people who understand the problem and
perhaps we can formalise it to an extent where the subproblems can be
addressed.

	P.



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 13:55:08 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: LISTADMIN Re: How do I set up a digest summary rather then
  individual emails!!!
In-Reply-To: <8070C3A4E99ED211A63200105A19B99B582FD9@mail.edifecs.com>
Message-ID: <E12G0FG-000Jsj-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

Henry has mailed that - at present - we cannot transact any mail list
business. Please can everyone try to read what Henry and I write. And to
remain silent for a few more days.

One correspondent highlighted the problem of large digests on XML-DEV. We
can at least cut down the volume by:
	CONSIDERATE SNIPPING in our QUOTES. 
And it gives such a feeling of achievement to produce a concise document,
doesn't it!

	P.

At 02:53 PM 2/1/00 -0800, Ross Lemire wrote:
>How do you set up this list server to just send out one digest per day.
>-----Original Message-----

[... unnecessary quoting, which should have been snipped ...]



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 13:55:04 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752A7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Toby Speight wrote,
> [snip: XMLImplementation and filters]
> It would be nice if Miles gave some thought to this issue.  
> Perhaps it's an insoluble problem; perhaps filters need some 
> additional feature types (or additional queries on those 
> features) to indicate how the the upstream parser's behaviour 
> is modified.

Actually, I don't think there's a problem here. The
org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLFilter itself isn't intended to be
used directly ... it's meant to be extended by SAX applications
(David: I think it should be marked as abstract). That being
so, there's no reason for it to have a corresponding concrete
XMLReaderImplementation.

Now, if you extend it,

  public class MyFilter
    extends XMLFilter
  {
    // override methods as required
  }

you could do something like this,

  public class MyFilterImpl
    implements XMLReaderImplementation
  {
    private XMLReaderImplementation itsBaseImpl;

    public MyFilterImplementation()
    {
      // Locate a base implementation to wrap
      // MyFilter's around.

      itsBaseImpl = 
        XMLReaderImplementations.
          getImplementation(... features wanted ...);
    }

    public boolean supportsBoolean(String name, boolean state)
    {
      // Just pass through here, but we could adapt

      return itsBaseImpl.supportsFeature(name, state);
    }

    public XMLReader createReader()
    {
      return new MyFilter(itsBaseImpl.createReader());
    }  
  }

and add a provider file pointing to MyFilterImpl.

I'm not sure that this solves _all_ the problems, but it looks
like it covers quite a few cases.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 13:55:14 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
In-Reply-To: <38980386.97C9F7AB@dyomedea.com>
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEMPEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <E12G0FK-000Jsj-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>

At 11:14 AM 2/2/00 +0100, Eric van der Vlist wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am building a web site which I'd like to be show case of XML
>technologies ;=) and I have read with great interest your Table of
>Content Pattern which can be used as a site map.
>
>I'd like to suggest to add an identifier to the topic element.
>
>I may have missed something, but I haven't found in either XLINK or the
>TOC Pattern a mechanism to address a resource without using a URI which
>is dependent of the physical layout of the site.
>
>As a web designer, I'd prefer (at least during the design phase...) to
>be able to use logical identifiers which are independent of the physical
>layout.

This may at least be a medium-scale approach and comes from an educational
approach.
In producing our material for VirtualXML I use XML entities as logical
identifiers and maintain a list of these (as a parameter entity) which can
be modified if any of the components are moved or renamed. This maintains
the link integrity (this is essentially a Bounded Object Set). When editing
material with Henry Thompson's XED I am prompted for the entities and with
a good naming scheme this can manage several hundred documents. 

Its merit is simplicity - it has to be accessible for newcomers to XML -
and we shall show course members how this works. Beyond that you probably
need specialist tools. I am sure hyTime can manage this!

	P.

>
>It could be done by adding a "name" attribute to the topic entity.
>
>Thanks
>
>Eric
>
>Didier PH Martin wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Since this afternoon I got some comments and myself, I checked again the
>> document. This lead to a new version which is posted at:
>> 
>> http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm
>> 
>> Up to now, we have an offer from Betty L. Harvey to host the XML-DEV
>> Editorial content. We'll wait a couple of days for an answer from OASIS.
>> Thanks for your generous offer Betty.
>> 
>> Didier PH Martin
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Email: martind@netfolder.com
>> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
>> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
>> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
>> 
>> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
>> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
>> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
>> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
>> 
>> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for
transfer to OASIS.
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea
>
>http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
>are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
> 

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 14:04:51 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752A9@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Whoops ... typo,

> public class MyFilterImpl
>   implements XMLReaderImplementation
> {
>    public boolean supportsBoolean(String name, boolean state)
>    {                      ^^^^^^^
>      // Just pass through here, but we could adapt
>
>      return itsBaseImpl.supportsFeature(name, state);
>    }

Should have read

    public boolean supportsFeature(String name, boolean state)
                           ^^^^^^^

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 16:05:47 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:46 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2000 13:54:22 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752A7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <u4sbrwpx0.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Miles> Miles Sabin <URL:mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>

0> In article
0> <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752A7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>,
0> Miles wrote:

Miles> Toby Speight wrote:

>> [snip: XMLImplementation and filters]
>> It would be nice if Miles gave some thought to this issue.  Perhaps
>> it's an insoluble problem; perhaps filters need some additional
>> feature types (or additional queries on those features) to indicate
>> how the the upstream parser's behaviour is modified.

Miles> Actually, I don't think there's a problem here.
Miles>
Miles> The org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLFilter itself isn't intended to be
Miles> used directly ... it's meant to be extended by SAX applications
Miles> (David: I think it should be marked as abstract).

I agree with this statement.


Miles> That being so, there's no reason for it to have a corresponding
Miles> concrete XMLReaderImplementation.
Miles>
Miles> Now, if you extend it,
Miles>
Miles>   public class MyFilter
Miles>     extends XMLFilter ...
Miles>
Miles> you could do something like this,
Miles>
Miles>   public class MyFilterImpl
Miles>     implements XMLReaderImplementation
Miles>   {
Miles>     private XMLReaderImplementation itsBaseImpl;

That assumes you only use filters with particular upstream classes.
What if a factory wants to know about filters so that it can build a
parser/filter combination with the required features?  (Assume none of
the parsers it manages provides the right feature-set).  Perhaps this
is an ambitious requirement for a factory, but it would certainly be
useful.

I'm not going to be hugely upset if we can't do this stuff, but I'd
hate to see it go simply because it hasn't been considered.

-- 


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From wperry at fiduciary.com  Wed Feb  2 16:02:52 2000
From: wperry at fiduciary.com (W. E. Perry)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: In Search of XML Interoperability: XLink + XML Schema = 
 Interoperability?
References: <E12G0FJ-000Jsj-0Y@anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <38985519.B792C3B6@fiduciary.com>

[with sincere apologies to those who have heard me ad nauseam on this subject]

Roger Costello:

> There are two ends of the XML Interoperability spectrum:
> [1] At one end of the spectrum an application is coded for a specific
> schema and this is able to make effective use of only XML documents that
> conform to that schema.
> [2] At the other end of the spectrum the application is able to make
> effective use of any XML document that it receives, regardless of the
> schema that the XML document conforms to.
>
[2] is the logical, inevitable and desirable consequence of XML's separation of
well-formedness from validity. It does imply, however, that, a node, or an application,
receiving an XML document must be prepared to make some *independent* judgments. Except
where the limited special case of [1] applies, the receiving node/application must
instantiate (and if it is programmed to do so, act on) the data conveyed by the document
into a form locally understood at that receiving node, without reference to the form in
which that data may have been understood or structured by its creator/transmitter. What
else could the receiving node possibly do? If it has no context of its own within which it
might structure or act upon an arriving document then ipso facto it has no interest in,
comprehension of, nor use for that document. Note that this is true even when the arriving
document might bring a schema for its instantiation, or even a stylesheet or other
template for its processing. The only instantiation which is possible at the receiving
node, and the only transform or other processing which might be executed, are those which
might be locally-understood at that node as the appropriate (local!) context in which to
place and perform that instantiation or that process.

Roger Costello is quite correct that that there must be a language for describing
relationships and, further, that this language will look, and perform, a lot like XLink.
XLinks--and the relationships they describe and behaviours they reference--must, like
every other facet of XML, by instantiated by a receiving node within the local context of
that node. That is, those relationships must be expressed, and those behaviours realised,
within the scope and capability of the receiving node, which may be substantially
different from that of the creator/transmitter. This is the fundamental requirement of a
general-purpose XML application or processor. Given its need to know the local context
even as that context expands with the local instantiation of arriving documents,
relationships and behaviours, it makes sense that such an application should be built on
top of an XML-specific database engine. That engine will perform the 'inference' required
to identify a locally-known context or data structure into which an arriving document can
be instantiated (or determine that there is none, and therefore no local comprehension of
the document with which to proceed).That engine will identify and apply locally-maintained
rules which constrain the instantiation of arriving XML, or shape the execution of
locally-defined process. That engine will effectively modify the local understanding of
data schemata and of the nature of the data structures which support the locally-defined
processing, in accordance with the actual nature of the documents received and with the
precise form into which those documents could be locally instantiated and locally
processed.

I suggest that we have now reached a point in the evolution of XML where we reasonably
should conclude that a general-purpose XML processor on an autonomous node must be
designed in this manner. More generally, we should understand that an XML application must
have the locally-available resources to perform this inference, this locally-constrained
instantiation, and this locally-directed processing.

Respectfully,

Walter Perry
XML SIG Leader
NY Object Developers Group


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From radhika at ans.net  Wed Feb  2 16:04:41 2000
From: radhika at ans.net (Radhika Srivatsa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: Installing XML4J parser
In-Reply-To: <38972B74.FD1691B5@nlm.nih.gov>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10002021101480.7412-100000@bhavani.aa.ans.net>


Thanks for the response.

I did use the xml4j.jar and got my program to compile but I keep getting
a deprecated warning for the com.ibm.xml.parsers.DOMparser() method. I
downloaded the xml4J_3_0_0EA3.tar.gz from the alphaWorks site which should
be the latest copy of the parser, isnt it?

Any hints on getting this warning go will be of help.

Thanks.

-Radhika Srivatsa
IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
Voice: (734)214-5970	Fax: (734)214-7343
radhika@ans.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as well.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Tue, 1 Feb 2000, Dongwook Shin wrote:

> Just unzip (Windows) or untar (Unix) the downloaded file
> and add "xml4j.jar" in your classpath.
> That's all you need to do.
> Now enjoy all the classes provided in the document.
> 
> Dongwook
> 
> 
> Radhika Srivatsa wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I have downloaded xml4j off internet. How do I go about using it ?
> > The makefile out there does not seem to be working for me. Have any of you
> > been able to use xml4j from the alphaWorks site ?
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > -Radhika Srivatsa
> > IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
> > Voice: (734)214-5970    Fax: (734)214-7343
> > radhika@ans.net
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as well.
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> > Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> > are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
> 
> --
> Dongwook Shin
> Visiting Scholar
> Lister Hill National Center for Biomedical Communications
> National Library of Medicine,
> 8600 Rockville Pike Bethesda 20894, MD
> E-mail: dwshin@nlm.nih.gov
> Tel: (301) 435-3257
> FAX: (301) 480-3035
> URL: http://dlb2.nlm.nih.gov/~dwshin
> 
> 
> 


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 16:34:45 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AB@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Toby Speight wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote,
> > [snip: Custom filter which finds it's own parent]
>
> That assumes you only use filters with particular upstream 
> classes. What if a factory wants to know about filters so 
> that it can build a parser/filter combination with the 
> required features?

If there aren't *any* constraints on what base implementation
a filter might be wrapped around, then it looks like the
set of features a filter+base reader combo supports would
be indeterminate. That being the case it's hard to see how
you could select such a thing on the basis of it's features
That's not to say you can't have such a thing, just that
maybe you shouldn't expect to be able to get one out of a 
general purpose factory.

It'd be helpful if you could give me a concrete example of the
kind of scenario you're talking about ... maybe I'm missing
something.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From ald_blk at hotmail.com  Wed Feb  2 16:58:36 2000
From: ald_blk at hotmail.com (ashutosh dandavate)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: cofig oracle database
Message-ID: <20000202165802.94690.qmail@hotmail.com>

hi,
i want to know how to configure Oracle database
with bluestonexmlserver.
any suggestons?
ashutosh
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 17:14:16 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2000 16:34:08 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AB@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <uvh47v868.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Miles> Miles Sabin <URL:mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>

0> In article
0> <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AB@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>,
0> Miles wrote:

Miles> If there aren't *any* constraints on what base implementation a
Miles> filter might be wrapped around, then it looks like the set of
Miles> features a filter+base reader combo supports would be
Miles> indeterminate.  That being the case it's hard to see how you
Miles> could select such a thing on the basis of it's features That's
Miles> not to say you can't have such a thing, just that maybe you
Miles> shouldn't expect to be able to get one out of a general purpose
Miles> factory.
Miles>
Miles> It'd be helpful if you could give me a concrete example of the
Miles> kind of scenario you're talking about ... maybe I'm missing
Miles> something.

Imagine you have 3 parsers: A, B and C; and 3 features: p, q and r.

Furthermore, suppose that A supports none of the features, B supports
p only, and C supports q only.

Now imagine we have two filters: F and G, that can be used with any of
the three parsers.  Both filters provide r; F also provides p, but
blocks q.

Summary:

Feature     p           q           r

A          no          no          no
B       provides       no          no
C          no       provides       no

F       passthru    passthru    provides
G       provides     blocks     provides


Now an application asks for a parser that provides q and r.  The
factory could use the above table to discover that C and F together
will provide this (no other combination works).

That's the kind of thing I was thinking of.

-- 


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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Wed Feb  2 17:28:33 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEFOENAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <389869A6.E86FC20F@dyomedea.com>

Didier,

Here is a snippet of the site map from one of the sites I have recently
built :

--------------------
<page
  name="ttc"
  source="ttc.xml"
  robots="INDEX,FOLLOW"
  path="tarif/"
  icon=""
  line="2"
  >
  <language name="french"
    title="AAE / Maison de la d?tection : Tarif TTC"
    short_title="Tarif TTC"
    description="../.."
    keywords="../.."
  />
  <language name="english"
    title="AAE / Maison de la d?tection : Price list (VAT included)"
    short_title="Price list VAT included"
    description="../.."
    keywords="../.."
    />
</page>
--------------------

With this information, I can use in my xml source files (transformed
through XSLT) logical links like :

<link page="cz5" src="/images/cz5.jpg" width="300" height="223"/>

where page is the attribute specifying the logical name and the language
is, by default, the "current" language.

These links are transformed into HTML links to the physical page having
the specified name for the current language.

For my new sites, I'd like to do the same kind of features using less
proprietary structures.

Using your TOC pattern, it could be something like :

<topic name="food" lang="en" xlink:title="Road runner food" 
	xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="Product/food.html"/`> 
<topic name="food" lang="fr" xlink:title="L'alimentation de road runner" 
	xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="Produits/alimentation.html"/`> 

This would allow to define, using a namespace to define, something like 
:

<link ref="food"> which would generate the link for the current language
or <link ref="food" lang="fr"> which would force the language to
english.

I hope this is clearer (and in the scope of TOC pattern ;)

Thanks

Eric

BTW: Is there any additional resources about XLINK to help understanding
the specification ?

Didier PH Martin wrote:
> 
> Hi Eric,
> 
> Thanks for the comment about the namespace identifier. I am actually adding
> a schema and a namespace document encoded with a format we are designing
> with James Tauber and Francois Beauregard.
> 
> Can you expand more on your suggestion about the logical identifier.
> 
> thanks
> Didier PH Martin
> ----------------------------------------------
> Email: martind@netfolder.com
> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric van der Vlist [mailto:vdv@dyomedea.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 5:15 AM
> To: Didier PH Martin
> Cc: 'XML Dev'
> Subject: Re: New version of the Table of contents document
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I am building a web site which I'd like to be show case of XML
> technologies ;=) and I have read with great interest your Table of
> Content Pattern which can be used as a site map.
> 
> I'd like to suggest to add an identifier to the topic element.
> 
> I may have missed something, but I haven't found in either XLINK or the
> TOC Pattern a mechanism to address a resource without using a URI which
> is dependent of the physical layout of the site.
> 
> As a web designer, I'd prefer (at least during the design phase...) to
> be able to use logical identifiers which are independent of the physical
> layout.
> 
> It could be done by adding a "name" attribute to the topic entity.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Eric

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From ptawde at athletedirect.com  Wed Feb  2 17:28:24 2000
From: ptawde at athletedirect.com (Parag Tawde)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <E7B1C251C897D3119760000629380F522A78DD@BB3>



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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Feb  2 17:34:51 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves (from Eliot Kimber)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000202093308.014bf9f0@pop.intergate.ca>

>Posted on behalf of Eliot Kimber [for technical list reasons].

>>At least
>>until the same legislators who are requiring both more multimedia
>>content in schools and fully-accessible materials for all students
>>realize that these two requirements cannot be met by current technology
>>and make the use of HyTime (or its functional equivalent) required by
>>law.

Ah... and put it into the curriculum too, dammit!  Architectural forms in 
Grade 5, Grove Plans in Grade 7, Finite Co-ordinate Spaces in Grade 9, and 
you have to commit the SGML Property Set to memory to graduate.  And bring 
back cold showers too, I say.

Actually, Eliot is right; Macromedia Director is an example of something
for which HyTime is the only plausible interchange format.  -Tim

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 17:58:06 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Toby Speight wrote,
> [snip: detailed example]
>
> Now an application asks for a parser that provides q and r.  
> The factory could use the above table to discover that C and 
> F together will provide this (no other combination works).

Hmm ... that strikes me as a tad specialized. Even so, I think
the case is covered. How about,

  package foo;

  public class MyFilterImpl
    implements XMLReaderImplementation
  {
    private XMLReaderImplementation
      itsBaseImpl;

    public TableDrivenImplementation()
    {
      // Search for a suitable base impl possibly using
      // XMLReaderImplementations.implementations()
      itsBaseImpl = ???
    }

    public boolean supportsFeature(String name, boolean state)
    {
      if(itsBaseImpl == null)
        return false;
      else
        return
          name.equals("q") || name.equals("r") ||
          itsBaseImpl.supportsFeature(name, state);
    }

    public XMLReader createReader()
    {
      return new MyFilter(itsBaseImpl.createReader());
    }
  }

If MyFilter(Impl) has a provider file located at
org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLReaderImplentations.providers which
looks like,

  foo.MyFilterImpl

then,

  XMLReader reader = XMLReaderImplementation.
    createReader(new String[] { "q", "r" });

will do what you want. Or am I still missing something?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 18:18:17 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752B1@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Sorry, more typos,

>  public class MyFilterImpl
>    implements XMLReaderImplementation
>  {
>    public TableDrivenImplementation()
            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>    {

should, of course have read,

     public MyFilterImpl()
     {

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 18:34:06 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Wed, 2 Feb 2000 17:57:31 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <un1pjv4h7.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Miles> Miles Sabin <URL:mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>

0> In article
0> <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752AE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>,
0> Miles wrote:

Miles> Toby Speight wrote,
>> [snip: detailed example]
>>
>> Now an application asks for a parser that provides q and r.  The
>> factory could use the above table to discover that C and F together
>> will provide this (no other combination works).

Miles> Hmm ... that strikes me as a tad specialized.

Me too :-)


Miles> Even so, I think the case is covered. How about,
Miles>
Miles>   package foo;
Miles>
Miles>   public class MyFilterImpl
Miles>     implements XMLReaderImplementation
Miles>   {
Miles>     private XMLReaderImplementation
Miles>       itsBaseImpl;
Miles>
Miles>     public TableDrivenImplementation()

I assume this is a constructor, and so the name should be MyFilterImpl()?

Miles>     {
Miles>       // Search for a suitable base impl possibly using
Miles>       // XMLReaderImplementations.implementations()
Miles>       itsBaseImpl = ???
Miles>     }

This is the problem.  You would have to create as many MyFilterImpl
objects as you have parsers, and try each one.  With my example (3
parsers, 2 filters), that's only 15 different possibilities, but the
combinatorial explosion gets you pretty quickly as the number of
stacked filters increases.

My hope is that with enough information, a factory could use
elementary predicate logic to quickly narrow the field down to
the likely combinations.  (No, I'm not suggesting that *I* could
do this.  But someone might.)

Perhaps another way of going about the problem (creating parser/filter
pipelines with a given feature set) is for the filters themselves to
be factories.  Then you could ask the filter F to give you a pipeline
that supports features q and r, and knowing that it provides r, it
would simply ask the master factory for a parser that provides q.
Make the same request of filter G and it would return no matches,
since it knows it blocks q.

Does that line of thought lead anywhere?

This is all getting quite hairy (certainly it seems a bit like overkill
for core SAX at this point), and since no-one else seems interested,
I'm willing to drop it.

-- 


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From ptawde at athletedirect.com  Wed Feb  2 18:42:28 2000
From: ptawde at athletedirect.com (Parag Tawde)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <E7B1C251C897D3119760000629380F522A78DF@BB3>



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From ptawde at athletedirect.com  Wed Feb  2 18:44:28 2000
From: ptawde at athletedirect.com (Parag Tawde)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: unsubscrib
Message-ID: <E7B1C251C897D3119760000629380F522A78E0@BB3>



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Feb  2 19:00:06 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6752B3@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Toby Speight wrote,
> This is the problem. You would have to create as many
> MyFilterImpl objects as you have parsers, and try each
> one.  With my example (3 parsers, 2 filters), that's only 15 
> different possibilities, but the combinatorial explosion gets 
> you pretty quickly as the number of stacked filters 
> increases.

Ahh ... light dawns. You want to be able to enumerate _all_
the parser+filter combinations that support "q" and "r", not
just find some _one_ parser+filter that fits the bill. You're 
right, the examples I posted address that latter problem, not 
the former.

Hmm ... my feeling is that this is far too specialized. Still
I'd be interested to see if you can come up with something
along those lines.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From paul at prescod.net  Wed Feb  2 19:11:20 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Expat exception handling]
Message-ID: <38987E62.9E24D9B6@prescod.net>

Here's how James Clark suggests to handle errors in handlers:

"The user data argument passed to XML_Parse should point to a structure
that includes a quitParsing flag.  If you want to stop parsing the
handler should set the quitParsing flag, and then set all handlers to
null. Callers of XML_Parse should check the quitParsing flag on return." 

In other words, we can't really stop the parse but we can stop
responding to the parse. This avoids the platform/thread complexities of
setjmp/longjmp.

--
Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
"Ivory towers are no longer in order. We need ivory
networks. Today, sitting quietly and thinking is the
world?s greatest generator of wealth and prosperity."
- http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/print.asp?t=140

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From AXu at epnet.com  Wed Feb  2 22:06:40 2000
From: AXu at epnet.com (Amanda Xu)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
Message-ID: <E12G7v3-0005YQ-00@punch.ic.ac.uk>

AX: Agree.  I use the entities for URL links to our image server (as a
parameter 
entity, instead of using unparsed ones).  It works beautifully.  All I need
to do 
is to maintain the image links in entity declaration section.  I really
think it is 
redundant to use namespace for identifiers.  Anyhow, it is just my own
opinion.  
Thanks!

A

-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Murray-Rust [mailto:peter@ursus.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2000 9:00 AM
To: 'XML Dev'
Subject: Re: New version of the Table of contents document


At 11:14 AM 2/2/00 +0100, Eric van der Vlist wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am building a web site which I'd like to be show case of XML
>technologies ;=) and I have read with great interest your Table of
>Content Pattern which can be used as a site map.
>
>I'd like to suggest to add an identifier to the topic element.
>
>I may have missed something, but I haven't found in either XLINK or the
>TOC Pattern a mechanism to address a resource without using a URI which
>is dependent of the physical layout of the site.
>
>As a web designer, I'd prefer (at least during the design phase...) to
>be able to use logical identifiers which are independent of the physical
>layout.

This may at least be a medium-scale approach and comes from an educational
approach.
In producing our material for VirtualXML I use XML entities as logical
identifiers and maintain a list of these (as a parameter entity) which can
be modified if any of the components are moved or renamed. This maintains
the link integrity (this is essentially a Bounded Object Set). When editing
material with Henry Thompson's XED I am prompted for the entities and with
a good naming scheme this can manage several hundred documents. 

Its merit is simplicity - it has to be accessible for newcomers to XML -
and we shall show course members how this works. Beyond that you probably
need specialist tools. I am sure hyTime can manage this!

	P.



>
>It could be done by adding a "name" attribute to the topic entity.
>
>Thanks
>
>Eric
>
>Didier PH Martin wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Since this afternoon I got some comments and myself, I checked again the
>> document. This lead to a new version which is posted at:
>> 
>> http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm
>> 
>> Up to now, we have an offer from Betty L. Harvey to host the XML-DEV
>> Editorial content. We'll wait a couple of days for an answer from OASIS.
>> Thanks for your generous offer Betty.
>> 
>> Didier PH Martin
>> ----------------------------------------------
>> Email: martind@netfolder.com
>> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
>> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
>> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
>> 
>> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
>> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
>> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
>> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
>> 
>> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for
transfer to OASIS.
>
>-- 
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea
>
>http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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> 

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From paul at prescod.net  Wed Feb  2 23:09:54 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
References: <000d01bf6d33$ca9204b0$0100007f@ebt.com> <008e01bf6d3d$9fce6700$0101a8c0@tompassin>
Message-ID: <3898B64B.E2C20648@prescod.net>

THOMAS PASSIN wrote:
> 
> .... When
> you develop without making one explicit, you are simply developing to an
> implicit and probably incomplete model, one that the others working with you
> may not fully agree with.
> 
> This may work fine for some projects, but it's a weak base for standards
> development.

This is demonstrated by the incompatibilities between SAX, the DOM, the
Information set and XPath. It will be demonstrated again soon by various
API and browser implementations of XLink. The more things change...

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
"Ivory towers are no longer in order. We need ivory 
networks. Today, sitting quietly and thinking is the 
world?s greatest generator of wealth and prosperity."
 - http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/print.asp?t=140

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From paul at prescod.net  Wed Feb  2 23:24:07 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: DOMs and data models
References: <000d01bf6d33$ca9204b0$0100007f@ebt.com>
Message-ID: <3898B992.358116CA@prescod.net>

Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote:
> 
> I actually think that syntax is independent of data model, and that
> it is not necessary for the API to directly reflect the data model.

I didn't say it should "directly" reflect the data model. I said that it
should reflect it. You use the word "expose" below. What's the
difference?

> A data model is essentially a set of data structures, and an algebra
> for manipulating them. How they are exposed through an API is largely
> and application dependent question, as is the syntax.

Fine. You seem to agree that you need the data model so that you can
"expose" it through an API and syntax. You can't expose something until
it exists.

I've heard a couple of DOM-developers say that now (here and in
private). Perhaps we can call a moritorium on adding features to the DOM
*until the underlying data models* "exposed" by the features have been
published through a W3C REC. How about it?

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
"Ivory towers are no longer in order. We need ivory 
networks. Today, sitting quietly and thinking is the 
world?s greatest generator of wealth and prosperity."
 - http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/print.asp?t=140

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From paul at prescod.net  Wed Feb  2 23:49:43 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Expat exception handling]
References: <38987E62.9E24D9B6@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <3898BF9B.7D505AB@prescod.net>

Sorry, I put that in my outbox last night and meant it to go to the
Python xml-sig, not xml-dev. It doesn't make much sense out of context
here. :)

 Paul Prescod

Paul Prescod wrote:
> 
> Here's how James Clark suggests to handle errors in handlers:
> 
> "The user data argument passed to XML_Parse should point to a structure
> that includes a quitParsing flag.  If you want to stop parsing the
> handler should set the quitParsing flag, and then set all handlers to
> null. Callers of XML_Parse should check the quitParsing flag on return."
> 
> In other words, we can't really stop the parse but we can stop
> responding to the parse. This avoids the platform/thread complexities of
> setjmp/longjmp.
> 
> --
> Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
> "Ivory towers are no longer in order. We need ivory
> networks. Today, sitting quietly and thinking is the
> world?s greatest generator of wealth and prosperity."
> - http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/print.asp?t=140
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
"Ivory towers are no longer in order. We need ivory 
networks. Today, sitting quietly and thinking is the 
world?s greatest generator of wealth and prosperity."
 - http://www.bespoke.org/viridian/print.asp?t=140

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From michael at research.canon.com.au  Thu Feb  3 00:52:21 2000
From: michael at research.canon.com.au (Michael Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: XML Schema equivClass.
Message-ID: <3898D11F.232AE059@research.canon.com.au>

Hello,
Thank you for the replies to my first set of questions.  Which have, of
course, led to some more questions.  The main point I would like
clarified is
the statement in a reply [ht].

> The two hierarchies (complex type and
> equivalence class) go together.

Normally in object oriented systems if a class (or type) B is derived
from a
class A then an instance of B can substitute an instance of A purely on
the
basis of the defined inheritance.  That is, inheritance implies
subclassing.
So if I have a schema that contains the following:

<element name="A" type="Atype"/>

<element name="B" type="Btype"/>
<type name="Btype" source="Atype" derivedBy="extension">
   <element name="notimportant"/>
</type>

<element name="C" >
   <type>
      <element ref="A"/>
   </type>
</element>

I now expect that it is okay to declare in the document instance:
<C>
  <B> B stuff in here </B>
</C>

This should be okay as Btype extends Atype and the content model was
expecting A (with Atype) but got B (with Btype).  The WD however, states
that
it is necessary in the schema to declare equivClass to say B is a
subclass of
A:

<element name="B" type="Btype" equivClass="A" />

If it is necessary to declare equivClass then what exactly is
equivClass's
role other than to facilitate the subclassing?  The WD states that
equivClass
elements must have types derived from the exemplar type so this use of
extended/restricted types may as well incorporate the subclassing.
Help on this issue would be much appreciated.
Michael.




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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Feb  3 01:33:16 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
References: <14481.56414.744229.568251@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3898DAC5.6250A735@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download ...

OK, a closely related announcement:  my package of SAX2 parsers and
other utilities has been updated to use those SAX2 beta APIs (with
some bugfixes, notably for feature/property IDs) and has now passed
its basic sanity tests.  It's at the usual URL:

	http://home.pacbell.net/david-b/xml/

The updates involved making all the parsers use the SAX2beta (only) APIs,
as well as the other utilities, documentation updates, and changes to most
of the simple examples.  Summary:

    - Parsers (count'em, six!):
	* AElfred (both new versions; the nonvalidating one supports SAX1)
	* A DOM parser (works with L1 and L2 DOM)
	* Wrapper for Sun's Swing HTML parser (reports XHTML namespace)
	* Wrapper for Sun's TR2 parsers
	* Wrapper for Oracle's current parser
    - DOM builder support (works with L1 or L2 DOMs)
    - XML processing pipeline package (including validator component)
    - Utilities to write XML and XHTML text
    - Simple example programs
    - etc

As before, the AElfred and Sun parsers support both optional handlers,
and the DOM parser supports the lexical handler.

That's a lot.  I consider this to be a destabilizing update; for example,
I've been noticing that the SAX2 'namespace-prefixes = false' default
breaks a variety of things.  So the previous version is still availble,
and I'll expect to get some bug reports!

See the "index.html" file in the distribution for full details.  It's also
accessible from that URL above without downloading the distribution; follow
the link to the "SAX2 XML Utilities" that's not a download link.

- Dave

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From k.fowles at worldnet.att.net  Thu Feb  3 01:33:40 2000
From: k.fowles at worldnet.att.net (Ken Fowles)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev k.fowles@worldnet.att.net
Message-ID: <016601bf6ddf$670b4670$32224f0c@kfowles>

unsubscribe xml-dev k.fowles@worldnet.att.net

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From jlowery at scenicsoft.com  Thu Feb  3 02:13:01 2000
From: jlowery at scenicsoft.com (Jeff Lowery)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: XML Schema equivClass.
In-Reply-To: <3898D11F.232AE059@research.canon.com.au>
Message-ID: <001201bf6dec$06450800$c064a8c0@jeff-nt.scenicsoft.com>

> Normally in object oriented systems if a class (or type) B is derived
> from a
> class A then an instance of B can substitute an instance of A purely on
> the
> basis of the defined inheritance.  That is, inheritance implies
> subclassing.
> So if I have a schema that contains the following:
>
> <element name="A" type="Atype"/>
>
> <element name="B" type="Btype"/>
> <type name="Btype" source="Atype" derivedBy="extension">
>    <element name="notimportant"/>
> </type>
>
> <element name="C" >
>    <type>
>       <element ref="A"/>
>    </type>
> </element>
>
> I now expect that it is okay to declare in the document instance:
> <C>
>   <B> B stuff in here </B>
> </C>
>
> This should be okay as Btype extends Atype and the content model was
> expecting A (with Atype) but got B (with Btype).  The WD however, states
> that
> it is necessary in the schema to declare equivClass to say B is a
> subclass of
> A:
>
> <element name="B" type="Btype" equivClass="A" />
>
> If it is necessary to declare equivClass then what exactly is
> equivClass's
> role other than to facilitate the subclassing?  The WD states that
> equivClass
> elements must have types derived from the exemplar type so this use of
> extended/restricted types may as well incorporate the subclassing.
> Help on this issue would be much appreciated.
> Michael.
>

The intent appears to be the divorcement of type definitions based on
exemplars ( "is-like") from instance equivalence based on an inherited base
class ("is-a"). In other words, I may want to define a new type that's like
an existing type, but is not a substitute for that type.

For example:
I may want to define a type Cat from an existing exemplar called Dog. Why?
because they both have hair, eyes, long canines, etc. That doesn't mean a
Cat is-a Dog, it's just that the types are similar, and therefore easy to
define one based on the other.

Now that idea is powerful or potentially messy, or both.


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Feb  3 02:27:33 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: XML Schema equivClass.
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C752E@THOR>

Ahh, the wonders of trying to force an OOP construct (inheritence) onto XML.  Basically, the problem is that "substitutibility" and "structure reuse" are very often at odds.  In OOP languages they go
together much more frequently than in XML.  equivClass really tries to address the substitutibility aspect.  While type inheritance primarily addresses the structure reuse aspect.  

However, content groups and attribute groups accomplish the same effects as type inheritance and equivClass's with much less complexity.  You might see my note
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/2000JanMar/0040.html , also you might check out my Schema HTMLHelp file at http://www.software.aeat.com/xml/resources.htm

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From snyder at digitalforum.com  Thu Feb  3 03:33:57 2000
From: snyder at digitalforum.com (Rod Snyder)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:47 2004
Subject: I want off of this list.. HELP
Message-ID: <NCBBLKKCKEFFGDCLHEOLMEENCCAA.snyder@digitalforum.com>

I have tried repeatedly to get off of this list... can anyone help me?

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Thu Feb  3 09:36:37 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: XML Schema equivClass.
References: <3898D11F.232AE059@research.canon.com.au>
Message-ID: <38994C03.3AC72D39@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

> <element name="A" type="Atype"/>
> 
> <element name="B" type="Btype"/>
> <type name="Btype" source="Atype" derivedBy="extension">
>    <element name="notimportant"/>
> </type>
> 
> <element name="C" >
>    <type>
>       <element ref="A"/>
>    </type>
> </element>
> 
> I now expect that it is okay to declare in the document instance:
> <C>
>   <B> B stuff in here </B>
> </C>

If I read the specs right, you can write

<C>
  <A xsi:type="Btype"> B stuff in here </A>
</C>

I don't like it. I don't like the distinction between "type" and
"element" at all. In OOP, you have mainly classes and instances, that's
it. Ok, you also may have primitive types and interfaces, but the
distinction between interfaces and classes is not relevant to XML since
there are no methods at all. 

XML schema (structure part) looks like trying to have full compatibility
to both, DTDs and OOP features. Look at C++ and know where that
ends....  BTW, a similar problem exists in C++:

consider class A, class B extends A

you cannot assign an instance of B to an A variable because it may
consume more memory and thus not fit... So you need explicit pointers to
make really use of inheritance. But with pointers, you cannot really use
the STL (no wonder if you read what the STL author thinks of OOP). So
you also need some wrapper classes....

Best regards

Stefan

-- 
Dipl.-Inform. Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From snyder at digitalforum.com  Thu Feb  3 12:39:13 2000
From: snyder at digitalforum.com (Rod Snyder)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <NCBBLKKCKEFFGDCLHEOLAEFACCAA.snyder@digitalforum.com>



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From ssoltysik at watershed.com  Thu Feb  3 15:11:34 2000
From: ssoltysik at watershed.com (Seumas Soltysik)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev ssoltysik@watershed.com
Message-ID: <web-382637@watershed.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev ssoltysik@watershed.com

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From poconnor at nxtrend.com  Thu Feb  3 15:45:11 2000
From: poconnor at nxtrend.com (Pat Oconnor)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: XSLT tools
Message-ID: <9B173FB75E56D3118BE7005004D5B6B0015CF342@CARTMAN>

I am working on a project to integrate several of the buy-side portals for
single point integration into ERP systems. I am looking for a good tool for
generating and testing XSL for translating the various documents. Does
anyone have any experience with these tools? 

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From ald_blk at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 18:35:05 2000
From: ald_blk at hotmail.com (ashutosh dandavate)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: help to unsubscribe
Message-ID: <20000203183430.93657.qmail@hotmail.com>

please guide me to unsubscribe this.
ashutosh
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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Feb  3 19:30:57 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Namespace prefix question
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC02F2@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

This is actually more of a confirmation than a question:  Can I use the same
namespace prefix more than once in an XML document, pointing to different
namespaces?  Like the following:

<hi:element xmlns:hi="http://www.sernaferna.com">
  <hi:element2 xmlns:hi="http://www.blah.com"/>
</hi:element>

Regardless of the fact that this is probably a bad idea, is it legal?  MSXML
doesn't complain, and neither does the XML parser bundled with XT (XP?).

David Hunter
MobileQ 
david.hunter@mobileq.com 
http://www.MobileQ.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 19:37:50 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: help to unsubscribe
Message-ID: <20000203193716.30510.qmail@hotmail.com>

Hi,
how u doing,
please guide me to unsubscribe this,too,incase got the solution.
Ravi

From: "ashutosh dandavate" <ald_blk@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: "ashutosh dandavate" <ald_blk@hotmail.com>
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: help to unsubscribe
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 10:34:30 PST

please guide me to unsubscribe this.
ashutosh
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From KSellers at GMANET.com  Thu Feb  3 20:01:48 2000
From: KSellers at GMANET.com (Ken Sellers)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Namespace prefix question
Message-ID: <796329F9FD6CD2119C640008C7B1A4E654A584@COMM>

The Namespaces in XML spec, Section 5.1,
(http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#scoping) confirms that it is valid.

Ken Sellers

-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter, David [mailto:dhunter@Mobility.com]
Sent: February 03, 2000 2:28 PM
To: 'XML-dev'
Subject: Namespace prefix question


This is actually more of a confirmation than a question:  Can I use the same
namespace prefix more than once in an XML document, pointing to different
namespaces?  Like the following:

<hi:element xmlns:hi="http://www.sernaferna.com">
  <hi:element2 xmlns:hi="http://www.blah.com"/>
</hi:element>

Regardless of the fact that this is probably a bad idea, is it legal?  MSXML
doesn't complain, and neither does the XML parser bundled with XT (XP?).

David Hunter
MobileQ 
david.hunter@mobileq.com 
http://www.MobileQ.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 19:58:33 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000203195748.16081.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev
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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:14:19 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201341.42432.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:12:10 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201121.97540.qmail@hotmail.com>


unsubscribe xml-dev

From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: unsubscribe xml-dev
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:32:39 EST

unsubscribe xml-dev


From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:46 EST


unsubscribe xml-dev

From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
Reply-To: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
To: XMLDev list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: A outside perspective
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)

Brown, Sam writes:

  > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.

If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.


Tautologically yours,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
            http://www.megginson.com/

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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:12:31 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201157.70363.qmail@hotmail.com>


unsubscribe xml-dev


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Feb  3 20:12:20 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Namespace prefix question
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC02F4@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

Excellent.  I was hoping it was an easy answer.  (Although I feel foolish
that it was in the spec all along...)

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Sellers [mailto:KSellers@GMANET.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 3:01 PM
To: 'Hunter, David'; 'XML-dev'
Subject: RE: Namespace prefix question


The Namespaces in XML spec, Section 5.1,
(http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#scoping) confirms that it is valid.

Ken Sellers

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:14:39 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201403.95504.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:14:31 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201353.28965.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:13:27 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201253.12937.qmail@hotmail.com>


unsubscribe xml-dev


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:14:02 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201328.22857.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:13:42 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000203201306.54365.qmail@hotmail.com>


unsubscribe xml-dev


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From jcagle104 at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 20:21:34 2000
From: jcagle104 at hotmail.com (Joey Cagle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000203202057.11688.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev

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From josh at parasite.com  Thu Feb  3 20:25:50 2000
From: josh at parasite.com (josh rotenberg)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
In-Reply-To: <20000203201121.97540.qmail@hotmail.com>; from rk_muntha@hotmail.com on Thu, Feb 03, 2000 at 03:11:21PM -0500
References: <20000203201121.97540.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <20000203122542.A8102@reston.ebola.org>

perhaps, just for the sanity of those that like to read the list instead of 40
unsubscribe posts per day, we can add the unsubscribe directions to the list
signature? maybe that will help those that prefer the 'brute force unsubsribe
attempt' like this guy.


josh

ravikumar munta <rk_muntha@hotmail.com> said:
> 
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> 
> From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: Re: unsubscribe xml-dev
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:32:39 EST
> 
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> 
> 
> From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
> Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:46 EST
> 
> 
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> 
> From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
> Reply-To: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
> To: XMLDev list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
> Subject: RE: A outside perspective
> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)
> 
> Brown, Sam writes:
> 
>   > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.
> 
> If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
> met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
> good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.
> 
> 
> Tautologically yours,
> 
> 
> David
> 
> --
> David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
>             http://www.megginson.com/
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
> 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer 
> to OASIS.
> 
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.

-- 
josh rotenberg
	josh@parasite.com 
		www.parasite.com


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From cismaru at syndesis.com  Thu Feb  3 20:39:21 2000
From: cismaru at syndesis.com (Liviu Cismaru)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
References: <20000203201121.97540.qmail@hotmail.com> <20000203122542.A8102@reston.ebola.org>
Message-ID: <3899E797.51CF9B3F@syndesis.com>

To all unsubscribers:
If you don't send messages anymore to this list you will not receive anything else, because
the list is closed, as written below, in every message!!!
It's moved to xml-dev@xml.org !
Good luck!
Liviu


josh rotenberg wrote:

> perhaps, just for the sanity of those that like to read the list instead of 40
> unsubscribe posts per day, we can add the unsubscribe directions to the list
> signature? maybe that will help those that prefer the 'brute force unsubsribe
> attempt' like this guy.
>
> josh
>
> ravikumar munta <rk_muntha@hotmail.com> said:
> >
> > unsubscribe xml-dev
> >
> > From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> > Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> > To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Subject: Re: unsubscribe xml-dev
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:32:39 EST
> >
> > unsubscribe xml-dev
> >
> >
> > From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> > Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
> > To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
> > Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:46 EST
> >
> >
> > unsubscribe xml-dev
> >
> > From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
> > Reply-To: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
> > To: XMLDev list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
> > Subject: RE: A outside perspective
> > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)
> >
> > Brown, Sam writes:
> >
> >   > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.
> >
> > If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
> > met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
> > good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.
> >
> >
> > Tautologically yours,
> >
> >
> > David
> >
> > --
> > David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
> >             http://www.megginson.com/
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> > 981-02-3594-1
> > Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> > unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> > unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> >
> > Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> > to OASIS.
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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> > 981-02-3594-1
> > Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> > unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> > unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
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> > to OASIS.
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> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> > 981-02-3594-1
> > Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> > unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> > unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-email@your-subscribed-address
> >
> > Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> > to OASIS.
> >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> > Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> > are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
>
> --
> josh rotenberg
>         josh@parasite.com
>                 www.parasite.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Feb  3 21:46:11 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Namespace prefix question
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000203134107.014d98d0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:27 PM 2/3/00 -0500, Hunter, David wrote:
>This is actually more of a confirmation than a question:  Can I use the same
>namespace prefix more than once in an XML document, pointing to different
>namespaces?  Like the following:
>
><hi:element xmlns:hi="http://www.sernaferna.com">
>  <hi:element2 xmlns:hi="http://www.blah.com"/>
></hi:element>
>
>Regardless of the fact that this is probably a bad idea, is it legal?  MSXML
>doesn't complain, and neither does the XML parser bundled with XT (XP?).

Yes, bad idea.  Yes, legal. -T.


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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Thu Feb  3 21:50:27 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
In-Reply-To: <20000203122542.A8102@reston.ebola.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000203164941.24402O-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, josh rotenberg wrote:
> perhaps, just for the sanity of those that like to read the list instead of 40
> unsubscribe posts per day, we can add the unsubscribe directions to the list
> signature? maybe that will help those that prefer the 'brute force unsubsribe
> attempt' like this guy.

Perhaps, in addition to that, we could shut the list down completely,
seeing as how it's already been moved to xml.org and this list is no
longer supposed to be active.

Steve


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From andyclar at us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  3 21:59:39 2000
From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: SAX2 Question: Core Properties
Message-ID: <8725687A.0078C7F0.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com>



Sorry if this has already been answered -- I haven't made it
through the backlog of messages, yet. But I haven't seen any
post regarding this, yet.

I've been working on adding SAX2beta support to the Apache Xerces
parser. The various handler changes were easy enough to do. Now
I'm updating the features/properties supported. This is where my
question comes up.

The page on features and properties states that all feature
and property IDs are fully qualified URIs. But the core
properties are just strings like "lexical-handler". Shouldn't
these have prefixes? What are they?

--
Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyc@apache.org



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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Thu Feb  3 22:05:41 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Namespace prefix question
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4ADD5@RED-MSG-08>

Yes. It is legal.

-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter, David [mailto:dhunter@Mobility.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 11:28 AM
To: 'XML-dev'
Subject: Namespace prefix question


This is actually more of a confirmation than a question:  Can I use the same
namespace prefix more than once in an XML document, pointing to different
namespaces?  Like the following:

<hi:element xmlns:hi="http://www.sernaferna.com">
  <hi:element2 xmlns:hi="http://www.blah.com"/>
</hi:element>

Regardless of the fact that this is probably a bad idea, is it legal?  MSXML
doesn't complain, and neither does the XML parser bundled with XT (XP?).

David Hunter
MobileQ 
david.hunter@mobileq.com 
http://www.MobileQ.com

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981-02-3594-1
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From ald_blk at hotmail.com  Thu Feb  3 22:26:03 2000
From: ald_blk at hotmail.com (ashutosh dandavate)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: unsubscribe me
Message-ID: <20000203222528.22145.qmail@hotmail.com>

hey i dont know who is managing this but this is
getting on my nerves please unsubscribe me.No company
should have this kind of thing running where so many
people regret for joining and unable to subscribe.
anybody who manages listening?
ashutosh
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From david at megginson.com  Thu Feb  3 22:39:36 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: SAX2 Question: Core Properties
In-Reply-To: andyclar@us.ibm.com's message of "Thu, 3 Feb 2000 14:59:14 -0700"
References: <8725687A.0078C7F0.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <m3n1phj4h5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

andyclar@us.ibm.com writes:

> I've been working on adding SAX2beta support to the Apache Xerces
> parser. The various handler changes were easy enough to do. Now
> I'm updating the features/properties supported. This is where my
> question comes up.
> 
> The page on features and properties states that all feature
> and property IDs are fully qualified URIs. But the core
> properties are just strings like "lexical-handler". Shouldn't
> these have prefixes? What are they?

I've just fixed that in the online documentation.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From andyclar at us.ibm.com  Thu Feb  3 23:50:11 2000
From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: SAX2 Question: Core Features
Message-ID: <8725687A.0082E73D.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com>



In implementing SAX2beta, I'm wondering what I should
do with those SAX2 features/properties that are not part
of the SAX2beta. Should I remove them? Or is this a
documentation problem?

Here's a list of the features/properties missing:

     http://xml.org/sax/features/use-locator
     http://xml.org/sax/features/normalize-text
     http://xml.org/sax/properties/namespace-sep

Also, since we're trying to get this in for a new
release of the Apache Xerces parser, I was wondering
if anyone has an idea about timeframe of modifications
or additions to the SAX2beta.

-AndyC



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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Feb  4 00:15:09 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
In-Reply-To: Roger Costello's message of "Sun, 30 Jan 2000 13:49:26 -0500"
References: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <f5b9011akmu.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Roger Costello <costello@mitre.org> writes:

> I have created an XML Schema document for juice machines. Part of the
> description of each juice machine is its cost. One of the first things
> that I did is create a money datatype:
> 
>     <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
>         <scale value="2"/>
>     </datatype>
> 
> Then, I declared the cost element to be of type money:
> 
>     <element name="cost" type="money"/>
> 
> Seems reasonable, right?  Well, the next thing that I wanted to do was
> to add an attribute - currency - to the cost element.  This is where I
> ran into problems.  Attributes are typically declared like this:
> 
>     <element name="cost">
>         <type>
>             <attribute name="currency" type="string" minOccurs="1"/> 
>         <type>
>     </element>

    <element name="cost">
        <type source="money" derivedBy="extension">
            <attribute name="currency" type="string" minOccurs="1"/> 
        <type>
    </element>

is the solution you are looking for.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
          W3C Fellow 1999--2001, part-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From tschew at pacific.net.sg  Fri Feb  4 00:22:03 2000
From: tschew at pacific.net.sg (Chew Teck Shiong)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: No subject
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000203164941.24402O-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <001101bf6ea5$c7736170$44c39382@TECKSHIONG>

unsubscribe


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From rossl at EDIFECS.COM  Fri Feb  4 00:24:43 2000
From: rossl at EDIFECS.COM (Ross Lemire)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: XML Editing Tools Questions.
Message-ID: <8070C3A4E99ED211A63200105A19B99B582FDC@mail.edifecs.com>

I am a product marketing manager specing out a new XML editing tool and
looking for feedback on a few questions:

1.  What are the best XML tools on the market today, and why?

2.  What are the most important features these tools are missing?

3.  What projects are you working on that you need these tools for?


Your feedback is appreciated and will drive our development.

Ross Lemire


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com  Fri Feb  4 00:54:37 2000
From: ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com (ssdhanoa@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: XML Editing Tools Questions.
Message-ID: <8725687B.0004F94C.00@d53mta02h.boulder.ibm.com>



Hi Ross,
I suggest you try to looking at the alphaWorks site
(http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/) where you can get the XML Parser for Java.
In my opinion, it's the best validating parser out there.

Regards,
Shailendra
---------------------- Forwarded by Shailendra S Dhanoa/Cupertino/IBM on
02/03/2000 04:45 PM ---------------------------

Ross Lemire <rossl@EDIFECS.COM>@ic.ac.uk on 02/03/2000 04:35:15 PM

Please respond to Ross Lemire <rossl@EDIFECS.COM>

Sent by:  owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk


To:   xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
cc:
Subject:  XML Editing Tools Questions.



I am a product marketing manager specing out a new XML editing tool and
looking for feedback on a few questions:

1.  What are the best XML tools on the market today, and why?

2.  What are the most important features these tools are missing?

3.  What projects are you working on that you need these tools for?


Your feedback is appreciated and will drive our development.

Ross Lemire


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.





xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com  Fri Feb  4 01:11:03 2000
From: ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com (ssdhanoa@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Xeena Update
Message-ID: <8725687B.00061326.00@d53mta02h.boulder.ibm.com>



New Update from alphaWorks (http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/)

Xeena

Xeena, a visual XML editor, is a generic Java application from
the IBM Haifa Research Laboratory for editing valid XML documents
derived from any valid DTD.

New Update
Xeena 1.1 contains many new features, including extensibility
(via Importers, Exporters and Tools), URL support and access to
document attributes.

Download
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xeena?open&l=xml-dev,t=xena
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
developerWorks White Papers
(http://www.ibm.com/developer/)

Transforming XML Documents
Lern how to transform XML docs into
Scalable Vector Graphics.

http://www6.software.ibm.com/reg/xml/transformxml-i?l=136,t=g,p=xmltrans2


XML specification for
business-to-business transactions
learn more about Trade Partner Agreement
(TPA) that will enable companies to automate
business-to-business transactions

http://www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/tpaml.html?l=136,t=g,p=b2b


Meaning, not markup
This paper explores the paradox that sharing
a common vocabulary can actually restrict the richness
and nuances of a business paradigm.

http://www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/meaning.html?l=136,t=g,p=xmlparadox



xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From lmocz at galatea.com  Fri Feb  4 01:17:33 2000
From: lmocz at galatea.com (Lajos Moczar)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:48 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000203181357.00942140@mail.henge.com>

At 08:47 PM 2/1/00 -0500, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote:
>> Actually, when I was an intern at Sun Labs in 1996, I 
>> proposed, along with
>> another researcher, a project to build a super-slim browser that was
>> essentially a Java run-time environment with SGML support. The UI and
>> everything would be downloaded as SGML and relevant helper classes.
>
>You'd have loved some of the things I did at NEC then... but I
>used s-expressions.
>
>I proposed to EBT to do this as well, but it never took off.
>

Anyone interested in building such a browser as an open-source project? I
have been wishing for years that we could evolve beyond the archaic browser
model that is currently in use and create an 'Intelligent Browser'. I'd
love to see a browser that spoke XML, SGML, HTML, etc.; not just for
reading but for writing as well (for communicating requests to XML-aware
servers). I've checked out Mozilla and DocZilla but they have serious
limitations, most notably that they don't exactly follow the 'super-slim'
model that I think we need.

If there is interest, I'd be happy to share my proposal in greater detail
with a view towards coming up with a specific project plan.


Lajos Moczar
Galatea IS Inc.

www.galatea.com
(303) 761-1667
lmocz@galatea.com



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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Fri Feb  4 01:34:58 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: XML Editing Tools Questions.
References: <8725687B.0004F94C.00@d53mta02h.boulder.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <000f01bf6eb0$22b09300$84672382@us.oracle.com>

Ross,

The Oracle XML Parser for Java V2 scored well
in XML.com conformance tests for validating
parsers, too. :-)

http://xml.com/pub/1999/09/conformance/val-analysis.html

Check it out at http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml
_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/java
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml
----- Original Message ----- 
From: <ssdhanoa@us.ibm.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2000 4:54 PM
Subject: Re: XML Editing Tools Questions.


| 
| 
| Hi Ross,
| I suggest you try to looking at the alphaWorks site
| (http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/) where you can get the XML Parser for Java.
| In my opinion, it's the best validating parser out there.
| 
| Regards,
| Shailendra
| ---------------------- Forwarded by Shailendra S Dhanoa/Cupertino/IBM on
| 02/03/2000 04:45 PM ---------------------------
| 
| Ross Lemire <rossl@EDIFECS.COM>@ic.ac.uk on 02/03/2000 04:35:15 PM
| 
| Please respond to Ross Lemire <rossl@EDIFECS.COM>
| 
| Sent by:  owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| 
| 
| To:   xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| cc:
| Subject:  XML Editing Tools Questions.
| 
| 
| 
| I am a product marketing manager specing out a new XML editing tool and
| looking for feedback on a few questions:
| 
| 1.  What are the best XML tools on the market today, and why?
| 
| 2.  What are the most important features these tools are missing?
| 
| 3.  What projects are you working on that you need these tools for?
| 
| 
| Your feedback is appreciated and will drive our development.
| 
| Ross Lemire
| 
| 
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
| 981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
| are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
| 
| 
| 
| 
| 
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
| are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
| 
| 


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From eliot at isogen.com  Fri Feb  4 02:30:21 2000
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: XML Mentioned in Mainstream Commercial
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
 <E12FwFM-000NP3-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>
 <003301bf6d84$2c4b3460$0101a8c0@tompassin>
Message-ID: <389A3855.A380EAD7@isogen.com>

This is completely non-technical, but I just saw a commercial in prime
time (Frasier, 8:00pm CST Thursday 3 Feb) that mentioned XML. I didn't
catch the company (some e-business something or other), but it shows
three people in an elevator, two talking about the third, saying "He
probably doesn't even know what X M L is [they twitter]". 

This was a moment I've been waiting for for a long time--the mention of
XML in some completely mainstream, non-technical context.

Cheers,

E.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From terje at in-progress.com  Fri Feb  4 03:47:12 2000
From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: SAX2: Interning names in namespaces
Message-ID: <b4bfe7d4030210040db7@[216.240.161.114]>

I submit the following for consideration in the design of the namespace
support for SAX2 and the implementation of name internalization in parsers:


BACKGROUND

Earlier on this list hosted a discussion about whether a SAX parser should
intern strings such as names. Interning strings in the parser provides
benefits such as less memory use and more efficient comparisions of names
during processing and filtering. Interning strings seem to be commonplace
among XML parsers.

There has also been a discussion about how to encode names with an
associated namespace, typically by merging the two into a string.
Suggestions ranged from placing brackets around the namespace URI to
separating the URI from the actual name with a space.

The current SAX2 beta uses multiple strings to represent a name in its
namespace. This has caused several of the methods in the recent beta of
SAX2 to have a rather cluttered argument list compared to SAX1.

PROPOSAL

I suggest that parsers interns each name as a separate string in the
namespace it belong to. This should guarantee that two equal names in the
same namespace are identical, and that two equal names in different
namespaces are unidentical.

IMPLEMENTATION EXAMPLE

For each namespace, the parser may use a weak hashtable indexed on
equality. When reading a name, the parser looks up the string in the
appropriate namespace hashtable, adding a *copy* of the name if there are
none in the table. The result is returned as a representation of the name.

DISCUSSION

The implementation results in that each namespace has its own copy of the
name. As a consequence, one can test whether two equal names are in the
same namespace by checking for identity, allowing very efficient
processing. Names that are the same but in different namespaces will be
equal, but not identical.

ADDENDUM

A parser can optionally associate a namespace with a name by using a hash
table indexed on *identity*. When interning a new name, the parser adds a
new item to the hash table using the internalized name as key and the
namespace as value. Looking up a name in the table returns the namespace of
the name. Names in different namespaces can be equal yet return different
namespaces when lokking them up in the table.

CONSEQUENCES FOR SAX

Parts of the namespace handling in SAX can be simplified if it can assume
that the parsers interns each name in its own namespace. It can eliminate
the need for passing namespace information as a separate argument to
methods or encoded in the name string. As a result, SAX2 might potentially
even keep some of the SAX1 argument lists for several functions instead of
adding new arguments to accomodate namespaces. This may allow namespace
support while maintaining compatability with SAX1.

FORWARD COMPATABILITY

The suggested representation of names is forward compatible in that it
allows new features to be associated with a name without breaking with an
earlier implementation. It also allows alternative representations of
names. A future version of SAX may want to introduce an interface for
names, so that one can extract the namespace URI and the localname in a
standard way. Future implementations may choose to build on this interface
to use a class for names rather than a string. A name object can be
interned in the hash table in the reference implementation in the same way
as a namestring. Equality and identity testing will still hold with objects
representing names rather than strings.








-- Terje <terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress

   Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com>
   Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac!



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From Guido.Menkhaus at uni-konstanz.de  Fri Feb  4 09:36:31 2000
From: Guido.Menkhaus at uni-konstanz.de (Guido Menkhaus)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe me
Message-ID: <FDDA6A4101A1D311B0C50000C0CB03EF02D900@flunder.fmi.uni-konstanz.de>

unsubscribe

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From abiasuzzi at objectdesign.it  Fri Feb  4 10:09:43 2000
From: abiasuzzi at objectdesign.it (Andrea Biasuzzi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <389AA53C.88E1600D@objectdesign.it>


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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Fri Feb  4 11:03:08 2000
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: query language
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001311738170.7764-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <389AB444.AC7E43BD@finetuning.com>

bob asked:
> 
> So, I'll ask once again: has anyone else tackled this problem?  Has a
> solution been hammered out which we just haven't succeeded in finding
> yet (for example, is there a later version of the XQL draft than the
> one from last summer)?
> 

Yes, just about everything's been tackled. If you want query language
serendipity just go to the listing of position papers from the W3C's
query language workshop in dec '98. Those 56 position papers from the
great minds of the world ought to just about cover all of the bases.  
it's at:

http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp.html

Notice that there are FIVE different papers from Microsoft.
Two address XQL intensely and from every angle:
http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/xql.html
http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/query-transform.html

three others aren't about xql at all:
http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/microsoft-extensions.html
http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/microsoft.html
http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/microsoft-serializing.html

I created a complete listing of those same (56) position papers indexed
and alphabatized by organization/institution at:

http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/03/quest/index5.html

for an article i wrote last march for xml.com at:

http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/1999/03/quest/index.html

Several xml query working group participants are quoted in the article
-- alas, they were talking then much more than they are now :-) But it's
no big secret that they've go their work cut out for them, integrating
those 56 papers into a cohesive and usable specification.

Most of the position papers are quite interesting reading actually --
the query language requirements of numerous prestigious organizations
and companies, each explaining its own specialized needs, and the
problems it has encountered thus far, and whatever solutions have been
found, if any, etc.

Anyway, hope that helps.

Enjoy!

lisa

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dvint at slip.net  Fri Feb  4 13:16:38 2000
From: dvint at slip.net (Dan Vint)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: XML Mentioned in Mainstream Commercial
In-Reply-To: <389A3855.A380EAD7@isogen.com>
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
 <E12FwFM-000NP3-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>
 <003301bf6d84$2c4b3460$0101a8c0@tompassin>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000204081210.009654f0@pop.slip.net>

That was Microsoft sponsoring that one. It was pretty cool to finally see
some of this stuff hitting the public airwaves like that.

..dan

At 08:24 PM 2/3/00 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
>This is completely non-technical, but I just saw a commercial in prime
>time (Frasier, 8:00pm CST Thursday 3 Feb) that mentioned XML. I didn't
>catch the company (some e-business something or other), but it shows
>three people in an elevator, two talking about the third, saying "He
>probably doesn't even know what X M L is [they twitter]". 
>
>This was a moment I've been waiting for for a long time--the mention of
>XML in some completely mainstream, non-technical context.
>
>Cheers,
>
>E.
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
>981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
>are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
>


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Author: SGML at Work   	http://www.slip.net/~dvint/pubs/sgmlatwork.shtml 
                                                       mailto:dvint@slip.net
    
Calian                                              Voice:804-975-3482
mailto:d.vint@calian.com
Charlottesville, VA Office                http://www.calian.com              


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From jcagle104 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  4 13:56:45 2000
From: jcagle104 at hotmail.com (Joey Cagle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: XML Mentioned in Mainstream Commercial
Message-ID: <20000204135600.23308.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev

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From radhika at ans.net  Fri Feb  4 14:34:46 2000
From: radhika at ans.net (Radhika Srivatsa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe me
In-Reply-To: <20000203222528.22145.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10002040926310.2206-100000@bhavani.aa.ans.net>


I guess we should give some credibility to the last 2 lines in the
footer of this mail which says that new subscriptions/unsubscriptions are
closed and I am assuming hopefully that the subsc/unsubsc operation will
continue smoothly after the list transefer to the new system. 

BTW, how long has these footer lines been appearing in the xml-dev
mails? If it has been appearing for a long time now (I am a new member),
then yes, I agree with your point that the mailgroup is not being
maintained well!

But it is nauseating to see all these "unsubscribe me" mails also flooding
the xml-dev list even more!! I too want myself to be removed from this
list and so have sent a mail to marjarodomo and have kept quiet until they
respond. 

One way of avoiding your mbox being filled up is by adding filters to your
mailer systems so that such unwanted mails go in a different folder which
you can do a mass delete of. On UNIX systems, there is something called
procmail and if you check man pages on this, you can get an indea of
writing these filters.

Good Luck!

-Radhika Srivatsa
IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
Voice: (734)214-5970	Fax: (734)214-7343
radhika@ans.net

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as well.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, ashutosh dandavate wrote:

> hey i dont know who is managing this but this is
> getting on my nerves please unsubscribe me.No company
> should have this kind of thing running where so many
> people regret for joining and unable to subscribe.
> anybody who manages listening?
> ashutosh
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
> 
> 


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From greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com  Fri Feb  4 14:46:08 2000
From: greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com (Barnowsky, Greg T.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe 
Message-ID: <950D48135359D211901A00104B9AE8A301826CAB@us-bb-exch-4.bb.unisys.com>



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From greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com  Fri Feb  4 14:57:33 2000
From: greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com (Barnowsky, Greg T.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
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From ssoltysik at watershed.com  Fri Feb  4 15:07:40 2000
From: ssoltysik at watershed.com (Seumas Soltysik)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <web-382991@watershed.com>

unsubscribe

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From scousins at televisual.co.uk  Fri Feb  4 15:44:18 2000
From: scousins at televisual.co.uk (Stephen Cousins)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <000001bf6f26$8e5811c0$0924c9c0@televisual.co.uk>

unsubscribe


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From xml at searchtools.com  Fri Feb  4 17:51:06 2000
From: xml at searchtools.com (Avi Rappoport)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: query language
In-Reply-To: <389AB444.AC7E43BD@finetuning.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001311738170.7764-100000@rksystems.com>
 <389AB444.AC7E43BD@finetuning.com>
Message-ID: <p04301401b4c0c0f097b7@[171.66.196.146]>

At 3:13 AM -0800 2/4/2000, Lisa Rein wrote:
>bob asked:
>>
>>  So, I'll ask once again: has anyone else tackled this problem?  Has a
>>  solution been hammered out which we just haven't succeeded in finding
>>  yet (for example, is there a later version of the XQL draft than the
>  > one from last summer)?
>  >

The XML Query Requirements draft of January 31 is the most recent and 
interesting document I've seen.  <http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlquery-req>

Jonathan Robie has a FAQ at <http://metalab.unc.edu/xql/>, with a 
link to an intermittantly-active mailing list.

Avi
-- 
_______________________________________________________
Guide to Local Site, Intranet, and Portal Search Engines: 
<http://www.searchtools.com> 

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From jcagle104 at hotmail.com  Fri Feb  4 18:10:04 2000
From: jcagle104 at hotmail.com (Joey Cagle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe me
Message-ID: <20000204180929.2954.qmail@hotmail.com>

I realize it still says it's closed, but I'm pretty sure I saw an e-mail 
from the person who runs this list saying that it opened back up, despite 
the fact it still says it's closed at the bottom of these e-mails.  I might 
be wrong.  I deleted the e-mail already.  Well I hope to get off this e-mail 
list soon.


>From: Radhika Srivatsa <radhika@ans.net>
>Reply-To: Radhika Srivatsa <radhika@ans.net>
>To: ashutosh dandavate <ald_blk@hotmail.com>
>CC: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: unsubscribe me
>Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:34:34 -0500 (EST)
>
>
>I guess we should give some credibility to the last 2 lines in the
>footer of this mail which says that new subscriptions/unsubscriptions are
>closed and I am assuming hopefully that the subsc/unsubsc operation will
>continue smoothly after the list transefer to the new system.
>
>BTW, how long has these footer lines been appearing in the xml-dev
>mails? If it has been appearing for a long time now (I am a new member),
>then yes, I agree with your point that the mailgroup is not being
>maintained well!
>
>But it is nauseating to see all these "unsubscribe me" mails also flooding
>the xml-dev list even more!! I too want myself to be removed from this
>list and so have sent a mail to marjarodomo and have kept quiet until they
>respond.
>
>One way of avoiding your mbox being filled up is by adding filters to your
>mailer systems so that such unwanted mails go in a different folder which
>you can do a mass delete of. On UNIX systems, there is something called
>procmail and if you check man pages on this, you can get an indea of
>writing these filters.
>
>Good Luck!
>
>-Radhika Srivatsa
>IOS, UUNET Technologies, Ann Arbor, MI.
>Voice: (734)214-5970	Fax: (734)214-7343
>radhika@ans.net
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>Procrastination is not only a waste of time, it's a waste of energy as 
>well.
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
>On Thu, 3 Feb 2000, ashutosh dandavate wrote:
>
> > hey i dont know who is managing this but this is
> > getting on my nerves please unsubscribe me.No company
> > should have this kind of thing running where so many
> > people regret for joining and unable to subscribe.
> > anybody who manages listening?
> > ashutosh
> > ______________________________________________________
> > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
> >
> >
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
>981-02-3594-1
> > Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> > are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
> >
> >
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
>981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
>are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.
>

______________________________________________________
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From k.fowles at worldnet.att.net  Sat Feb  5 00:46:46 2000
From: k.fowles at worldnet.att.net (Ken Fowles)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <006b01bf6f6b$2eebeaa0$07e05a0c@kfowles>

unsubscribe
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From gtn at ebt.com  Sat Feb  5 06:35:03 2000
From: gtn at ebt.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: DOMs and data models
In-Reply-To: <3898B992.358116CA@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <000801bf6fa2$7bbde1d0$363f010a@ebt.com>

> Fine. You seem to agree that you need the data model so that you can
> "expose" it through an API and syntax. You can't expose 
> something until it exists.

Sure. In fact, my point was really that the data model is the
single most important thing, and that the way you manipulate it
(via an API) or persist it, are largely application dependent.
 
> I've heard a couple of DOM-developers say that now (here and in
> private). Perhaps we can call a moritorium on adding features 
> to the DOM
> *until the underlying data models* "exposed" by the features have been
> published through a W3C REC. How about it?

Well, I was probably the singly most consistently vehement DOM WG
members with regards to data model... and the first concrete proposal
was derived directly from groves and the SGML property set.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From gtn at ebt.com  Sat Feb  5 06:34:05 2000
From: gtn at ebt.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <008e01bf6d3d$9fce6700$0101a8c0@tompassin>
Message-ID: <000601bf6fa2$6c421b40$363f010a@ebt.com>

> Where many have come to grief is that without a good coherent 
> data model to
> work from, you are likely to arrive at a syntax that makes it hard to
> express things you end up finding that you want to express.  
> Everyone has
> one or more implicit data models in their head all the time 
> anyway.  When
> you develop without making one explicit, you are simply 
> developing to an
> implicit and probably incomplete model, one that the others 
> working with you
> may not fully agree with.

I agree. I tried getting the DOM WG to define a data model time
and again, to no avail....

My point was really more that the data model is the single most
important thing, because ultimately, it is the information that
is being interpreted. Syntax and API are obviously influsnced by
the data model, but are logically independent.


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From gtn at ebt.com  Sat Feb  5 06:34:12 2000
From: gtn at ebt.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEFOENAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <000701bf6fa2$740912c0$363f010a@ebt.com>

> However, the choice of the interface granularity, the
> members, even the parameters are still very dependent on the data model.
So,
> there is a high level of linkage between the data model and the API. It is
not as
> independent as you seem to believe.

There obviously has to be *some* influence, but you
can put any number of different API's on top of a data
model, just as you can serialise the data in any number
of different formats. If you want to directly expose the
data model, then yes, the API would by necessity reflect
it fairly closely.



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From k.fowles at worldnet.att.net  Sat Feb  5 15:33:10 2000
From: k.fowles at worldnet.att.net (Ken Fowles)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev k.fowles@worldnet.att.net
Message-ID: <004801bf6fe7$0584eff0$70e05a0c@kfowles>

unsubscribe

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Feb  5 19:46:50 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: Two name space having an identical keyword.
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEKPENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

I am not so sure about a certain interpretation of the recommendations.

On one hand, let's say that I have the xlink name space which includes the
"title" keyword. On the other hand, let's say that I have a name space named
"toc" which also includes an "title" keyword. In both name spaces, the
"title" attribute has the same meaning and the same spelling.

Now, let's say that the topic element inherits from an xlink type. The
xlink:type="simple". This latter includes a "title" attribute. The topic
element from the toc name space also has a "title" attribute.

Question: Is this document valid and interpretable by xlink?

<MyDoc xmlns="http://www.netfolder.com/TR/2000/toc"
	 xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink/namespace/">

<topic title="W3 home page" xlink:href="http://www.w3.org/index.html"
xlik:type="simple"/>
</MyDoc>

Or should it absolutely be as follow to be fully interpretable by an xlink
interpreter?
<MyDoc xmlns="http://www.netfolder.com/TR/2000/toc"
	 xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink/namespace/">

<topic title="W3 home page" xlink:title="W3 home page"
xlink:href="http://www.w3.org/index.html" xlik:type="simple"/>
</MyDoc>

cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Feb  5 19:46:56 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
In-Reply-To: <E12G7v3-0005YQ-00@punch.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAELAENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Amanda,

Amanda said:

--
AX: Agree.  I use the entities for URL links to our image server (as a
parameter
entity, instead of using unparsed ones).  It works beautifully.  All I need
to do
is to maintain the image links in entity declaration section.  I really
think it is
redundant to use namespace for identifiers.  Anyhow, it is just my own
opinion.

Didier replies:
This solution requires that you use a validating parser and that you include
a DTD in the TOC document. We are searching for a solution that can work in
a non-validating as well as in a validating environment.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Feb  5 19:46:50 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:49 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
In-Reply-To: <389869A6.E86FC20F@dyomedea.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEKPENAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Eric,

Eric said:
Using your TOC pattern, it could be something like :

<topic name="food" lang="en" xlink:title="Road runner food"
	xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="Product/food.html"/`>
<topic name="food" lang="fr" xlink:title="L'alimentation de road runner"
	xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="Produits/alimentation.html"/`>

This would allow to define, using a namespace to define, something like
:

<link ref="food"> which would generate the link for the current language
or <link ref="food" lang="fr"> which would force the language to
english.

Didier replies:
If I understand you well, you are using the attribute "name" to distinguish
the topic's "name" from the topic's "display name". Am I interpreting
correctly what you mean?

If my understanding is correct, I think that your proposal make sense in an
international context or in any contexts where there is more than one way to
name things. So, with your name attribute, the topic keeps its identity for
any language or context.

Before I commit any changes to the TOC specs, tell me if I interpreted well
your thoughts.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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