From rc370 at columbia.edu Sat May 1 03:57:21 1999 From: rc370 at columbia.edu (Richard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: Do you need prior knowlege to learn XML Message-ID: <372A5E16.DB78CB92@columbia.edu> Do you need to have prior knowledge of html or other langauges to learn XML? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Sat May 1 16:38:05 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: dinky/buttons in lower case 88x31 version Message-ID: <002701be93df$34ccf530$58c8c8c8@jgp400> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_009.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 27636 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990501/18fff558/new_x_009.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_009_88x31.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 2141 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990501/18fff558/new_x_009_88x31.gif From tbray at textuality.com Sat May 1 17:35:17 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: XML/XSL Icons. Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990501083209.0114b1a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:31 PM 4/30/99 +1000, Alan Kennedy wrote: >Since several people replied with suggested graphics for use as >Logos/Icons for XML and XSL, I thought it would be a good idea to >gather them all onto one page. Nice to see all this creativity, but the "powered by" text has to go. XML is per definition *internationalized* and designed for use on the WORLD WIDE web... so English slogans are really inappropriate. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tgraham at mulberrytech.com Sat May 1 18:33:48 1999 From: tgraham at mulberrytech.com (Tony Graham) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: XML/XSL Icons. In-Reply-To: <3729322B.582840DD@iol.ie> References: <3729322B.582840DD@iol.ie> Message-ID: <14122.62003.600000.593671@menteith.com> At 30 Apr 1999 14:31 +1000, Alan Kennedy wrote: > Since several people replied with suggested graphics for use as > Logos/Icons for XML and XSL, I thought it would be a good idea to > gather them all onto one page. ... > Meantime, if anyone else has any icons to propose, feel free to > send them to me. What about icons for valid XML and well-formed XML? XML+CSS? Regards, Tony Graham ====================================================================== Tony Graham mailto:tgraham@mulberrytech.com Mulberry Technologies, Inc. http://www.mulberrytech.com 17 West Jefferson Street Direct Phone: 301/315-9632 Suite 207 Phone: 301/315-9631 Rockville, MD 20850 Fax: 301/315-8285 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in SGML and XML ====================================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jelks at jelks.nu Sat May 1 23:33:37 1999 From: jelks at jelks.nu (Jelks Cabaniss) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: XML/XSL Icons. In-Reply-To: <14122.62003.600000.593671@menteith.com> Message-ID: Tony Graham wrote: > > Meantime, if anyone else has any icons to propose, feel free to > > send them to me. > > What about icons for valid XML and well-formed XML? XML+CSS? What about icons for invalid and unparseable XML? ... /Jelks xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sun May 2 01:40:17 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:35 2004 Subject: intercepting internal entities? References: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F2551E6@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: <372B7624.12C5EC2F@w3.org> "DuCharme, Robert" wrote: > > Here's my problem: let's say I have a document with ä in it > somewhere and auml properly declared as an internal entity in the DTD > along with the other 589 internal entities shown at > http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/xml-ISOents.txt. My application will > write to one file headed for a Windows app (in which case I want the > ä mapped to byte 228), a Mac document (where I want it mapped to > byte 138) a DOS one (byte 132), a web page ("ä") and a Bloomberg > terminal ("a"). You appear to be mixing up bytes and characters. > In SGML, we would declare auml as an SDATA entity and the conversion > tools would let me trap the internal entity event and map it > appropriately depending on the output format. Using Java and SAX, I > don't see any equivalent event to trap. Right. For the reasons that you mention. Instead, try using the same Unicode character throughout and letting the client map to whatever internal character set it may prefer, if it needs to. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sun May 2 01:40:18 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: Dinky little XML and XSL GIFs for web pages? References: <8EAE75D3D142D211A45200A0C99B602393570C@ZEUS> <3728822A.407C142@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <372B7093.771B971A@w3.org> Lisa Rein wrote: > > i agree there should be an icon. but is should be TEXT-BASED! :-) > let's keep things clean, shall we? Grin. OK, so here is a *text based* icon. Indeed, it is well formed XML. Its even valid. And when gzipped, simulating the transmission size over HTTP/1.1, it is 2,687 bytes which is fair enough. I attach a PNG to show what it actually looks like. A 128color, 96 by 61 pixel GIF was 3,022 bytes, the same image was 2,620 bytes as a PNG and the 24-bit version was 3,610 bytes as a q85, 444, progressive JPEG (anything less and it looked awful. Logos are bad for jpef compression). The path data was programatically generated, and I didn't write the program, so I can't give it out yet. The rest was hand written. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: xmlsl.png Type: image/png Size: 25065 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/5c7f7a5c/xmlsl.png From tbray at textuality.com Sun May 2 02:07:02 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: Dinky little XML and XSL GIFs for web pages? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990501170429.011f4460@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:22 PM 5/1/99 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: >Grin. OK, so here is a *text based* icon. Cool. Since people here presumably favor *standards based* approaches, how about an icon that pumps up real done&delivered stable standards, i.e. XML+CSS. Or XML+CSS+DOM. Or... how about just XML? -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Sun May 2 02:15:50 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: Perl-XML FAQ 1.1 Message-ID: <372B9934.C84EECC3@pobox.com> Perl XML FAQ 1.1 This FAQ contains information related to using and manipulating XML with Perl. It can be found on the Web at: http://www.perlxml.com/faq/perl-xml-faq.html Information in this FAQ is based on discussions and information transmitted to the Perl XML email list. To join, send an email to Lyris@ActiveState.com with the message: SUBSCRIBE Perl-XML. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Sun May 2 02:26:16 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: Dinky little XML and XSL GIFs for web pages? References: <3.0.32.19990501170429.011f4460@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <372B9A28.40F642C9@w3.org> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 11:22 PM 5/1/99 +0200, Chris Lilley wrote: > >Grin. OK, so here is a *text based* icon. > > Cool. Since people here presumably favor *standards based* approaches, > how about an icon that pumps up real done&delivered stable standards, > i.e. XML+CSS. Or XML+CSS+DOM. Or... how about just XML? -T. It would be neat to do an icon for XML+CSS, written in XML+CSS. For just XML on its ownsome, though, I guess you can't have an icon. Well, okay, perhaps you can. Another missing icon would be the "written in XML, honest, but I transform to HTML server side and provide no link to the XML so tough luck" icon. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Sun May 2 05:50:24 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: Dinky little XML and XSL GIFs for web pages? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990501170429.011f4460@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990501234817.013994b0@nexus.polaris.net> At 05:05 PM 5/1/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >Or... how about just XML? -T. Sorry. "Just XML" is taken . ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Sun May 2 18:52:09 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: where to put these dinky buttons Message-ID: <000601be94bb$8494ebe0$58c8c8c8@jgp400> ...who am I supposed to send the dinky buttons samples to so that all list members can view them... rather than continue to bog the list server down... please advise Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/8b4e372a/attachment.htm From jgarrett at navix.net Sun May 2 18:53:26 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:37 2004 Subject: dinky buttons - post3 - xml/+css 88x31 - lowercase Message-ID: <000001be94ba$8b955480$58c8c8c8@jgp400> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_008_+css_04_88x31.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 2303 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/42956b17/new_x_008_css_04_88x31.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_008_+css_04.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 29387 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/42956b17/new_x_008_css_04.gif From sean at westcar.com Sun May 2 20:12:15 1999 From: sean at westcar.com (Sean Brown) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: XML/XSL Logo Announcement Message-ID: XML / XSL Logo selection Alan Kennedy and I have collaborated to provide the xml/xsl community a framework for submitting, viewing and voting on logos. http://www.iol.ie/%7ealank/xml/icons.htm Alan is maintaining the Image Gallery where you can view all of the submittied buttons, logo's and graphics. The Image Gallery also contains links to important information, and basicaly is the official home for the project. We have agreed to accept image submissions until 12 noon [EDT] Friday May 7th. Durrign the submission process you interested parties can provide valuable feedback to the image designers by casting unoffical votes and leaving comments. The unofficial votes and comments are available for anyone to view. Offical voting will open the afternoon of May 7th and continue until 12 noon [EDT] May 14th. SUBMITTING IMAGES: Please DO NOT send images to this list as file attachments! - Email them to Alan Kennedy Also, please consider that many of the subscribers to this list may not be insterested in hearing about every new image you design. Those who are interested are encouraged to check the web site Alan is maintaining regularly. -Sean Brown xml-dev@ic.ac.uk xsl-list@mullberrytech.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From stockett at quadralay.com Sun May 2 22:26:05 1999 From: stockett at quadralay.com (Stockett, Jeff) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: problem using java.util.Stack with SAX Message-ID: <5C7FC46ADA5FD2118A3A00C04F8ED47B020C7F@khan.quadralay.com> Hello. I'm relatively new to Java, so please forgive if this is a simple question. I'm using SAX to render a treeview table of contens from XML where the source content looks something like: To handle tracking what level in the tree I'm at, I thought I'd use a stack so my handler is as follows: public class TOCHandler extends HandlerBase { private java.util.Stack stack; public void startElement(String name, AttributeList atts) { System.out.println("Start element: " + name); if (name.equals("tocitem")) { String text = atts.getValue("text"); if (stack.empty()) { symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode child = new symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode(text, Contents); Contents.append(child); stack.push(child); } else { symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode child = new symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode(text, Contents); symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode parent = (symantec.itools.awt.TreeNode) stack.peek(); stack.push(child); Contents.addChild(child, parent); } } } public void endElement(String name) { System.out.println("End element: " + name); if (name.equals("toc")) Contents.redraw(); if (name.equals("tocitem")) stack.pop(); } } Now I get a SAXException of type null when the first check to stack.empty() happens? What gives? This was all working fine before I added the stack, but I fail to see what I'm doing wrong. Does it have something to do with the fact that the stack methods are declared synchronized? Best Regards, Jeff Stockett Quadralay Corporation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jgarrett at navix.net Sun May 2 22:37:42 1999 From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: css dinky button w/o plus sign - as per requested Message-ID: <000401be94d9$9bdf7680$58c8c8c8@jgp400> Skipped content of type multipart/alternative-------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_008_css_05.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 28296 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/741a8ee6/new_x_008_css_05.gif -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: new_x_008_css_05_88x31.GIF Type: image/gif Size: 2208 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990502/741a8ee6/new_x_008_css_05_88x31.gif From srn at techno.com Mon May 3 01:36:28 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: XML Europe 99 slides Message-ID: <199905022335.SAA00518@bruno.techno.com> My slides on the industrial benefits of adopting the grove paradigm, given last week during the HyTime Track at XML Europe 99, are available at http://www.hytime.org/papers/xmle99/. I'd be happy to post other relevant materials from XML Europe, or links to them, at the hytime.org website. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Mon May 3 10:01:28 1999 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: ECG data and XML Message-ID: <199905030625.IAA09015@chimay.loria.fr> I am working on a system to handle ECG (Electrocardiogram) binary data. I am using XML to manage all the meta-data (concerning identification, patient, folder, ...). I was wondering if someone else has already put his hands in this kind of data. I would like to encapsulate the ECG binary data within the XML document containing the remaining information. For instance, ECG data are stored in some external files. Thanks 4 all information, Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jalal at swol.de Mon May 3 10:11:59 1999 From: jalal at swol.de (jalal ) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: problem using java.util.Stack with SAX Message-ID: On Sun, 2 May 1999 15:24:30 -0500, Stockett, Jeff wrote: > >Now I get a SAXException of type null when the first check to stack.empty() >happens? I don't see the stack being initialised anywhere... jalal xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon May 3 15:19:44 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: Difference between a FIXED attribute vs enum with one value? Message-ID: <372DA2AD.CF277507@mitre.org> Is there any difference between versus In the first case I define an attribute xml:link to have a CDATA type that is fixed at the value "simple". In the second case I define an attribute xml:link to have an enumeration type with one possible value, and it defaults to that one value. Seems to me like these definitions are semantically equivalent. Yes? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 3 16:33:17 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: Difference between a FIXED attribute vs enum with one value? References: <372DA2AD.CF277507@mitre.org> Message-ID: <372DB387.35629B65@locke.ccil.org> Roger L. Costello wrote: > In the first case I define an attribute xml:link to have a CDATA type > that is fixed at the value "simple". In the second case I define an > attribute xml:link to have an enumeration type with one possible value, > and it defaults to that one value. Seems to me like these definitions > are semantically equivalent. Yes? /Roger In this case, yes; in general, no, because enumerated values must be nmtokens, whereas a CDATA FIXED attribute can have any value, like an URL. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Mon May 3 16:37:51 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:38 2004 Subject: intercepting internal entities? Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F25521B@MDYNYCMSX1> >Instead, try using the same >Unicode character throughout and letting the client map to whatever >internal character set it may prefer, if it needs to. I can't put that much faith in the clients; the world is not yet 100% Unicode-compliant. (I mentioned the Bloomberg terminals, and I know that we're running older releases of the Mac OS.) I found out that my problem is easily solved by Java when I specify the appropriate encoding to the OutputStreamWriter. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Mon May 3 16:59:07 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Difference between a FIXED attribute vs enum with one value? References: <372DA2AD.CF277507@mitre.org> <372DB387.35629B65@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <005c01be9575$c3709480$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > > In the first case I define an attribute xml:link to have a CDATA type > > that is fixed at the value "simple". In the second case I define an > > attribute xml:link to have an enumeration type with one possible value, > > and it defaults to that one value. Seems to me like these definitions > > are semantically equivalent. Yes? /Roger > > In this case, yes; in general, no, because enumerated values must > be nmtokens, whereas a CDATA FIXED attribute can have any value, > like an URL. And whitespace normalisation is different, too. and will only be treated as the same in the case of the enum. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon May 3 17:16:08 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Example of using conditional sections? Message-ID: <372DBDF4.6E3DAFD8@mitre.org> Can someone give me a practical example of using conditional sections in a DTD? I am having a hard time seeing any real use for it. Every example that I come up with is better solved using the optional "?" operator. /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 3 17:21:49 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model Message-ID: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> The more I work with RDF, the more I find it fascinating in the abstract but annoying in the concrete. The biggest problem is that RDF claims an extremely simple data model statement: subject, predicate, object but that the model does not even come close to describing what information actually appears in an RDF statement. Let's start with the most naive mapping into a Java object model: public interface RDFStatement { public abstract String getSubject (); public abstract String getPredicate (); public abstract String getObject (); } This will work fine for something like the following: Megginson Technologies statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" However, it falls apart quickly when the value of the property is a resource: statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Creator" statement.getObject() => "http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/" In the first case, the object was a literal, and in the second case, the object is a resource; however, the naive interface does not make this information available. The only solution is to add a new property to the Java interface: public interface RDFStatement { public abstract String getSubject (); public abstract String getPredicate (); public abstract String getObject (); public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); } Now, for the first example, we have statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" statement.objectIsResource() => false and for the second example, we have statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Creator" statement.getObject() => "http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/" statement.objectIsResource() => true Unfortunately, we're not nearly through yet. The next nasty bit comes from the aboutEachPrefix attribute. For example, here's a modified version of the first example: Megginson Technologies Now, this description no longer applies just to http://www.megginson.com/, but to *all* resources whose URIs begin with http://www.megginson.com/ (a constantly-changing set, and, in the case of CGIs or Servlets, potentially infinite). As a result, the following information is no longer sufficient: statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" statement.objectIsResource() => false We need to modify the interface once again public interface RDFStatement { public abstract String getSubject (); public abstract String getPredicate (); public abstract String getObject (); public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); } statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true statement.objectIsResource() => false But wait -- there's more. The RDF spec states that the 'xml:lang' attribute does not modify the data model, but rather, is a property of the (underspecified) literal. Consider the following (RDF purists would perfer to use an RDF:Alt, but let's keep things simple): markup balisage statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" statement.getObject() => "markup" statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true statement.objectIsResource() => false statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" statement.getObject() => "balisage" statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true statement.objectIsResource() => false The language distinction is missing from our model, so we have to add yet another property to the Java interface: public interface RDFStatement { public abstract String getSubject (); public abstract String getPredicate (); public abstract String getObject (); public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); public abstract String getObjectLang (); } statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" statement.getObject() => "markup" statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true statement.objectIsResource() => false statement.getObjectLang() => "en" statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" statement.getObject() => "balisage" statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true statement.objectIsResource() => false statement.getObjectLang() => "fr" We're still not done. Take a look at the following: Roses are red, Violets are blue Sugar is sweet, And I love you. Since the element sets the 'rdf:parseType' attribute to "Literal", the contents of the element will not be interpreted as RDF markup. As a result, the value of this statement is a literal string: statement.getObject() => " Roses are red, Violets are blue Sugar is sweet, And I love you. " statement.objectIsLiteral() => true If I were to round-trip this back to XML, however, how would I know that it was meant to be XML markup? My software might just as easily generate the following: <poem> <line>Roses are red,</line> <line>Violets are blue</line> <line>Sugar is sweet,</line> <line>And I love you.</line> </poem> This probably isn't what I want. As a result, I have to add more information to my Java interface to note whether the literal value is meant to be read as XML markup: public interface RDFStatement { public abstract String getSubject (); public abstract String getPredicate (); public abstract String getObject (); public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); public abstract boolean objectIsXML (); public abstract String getObjectLang (); } At this point, it might make sense to split this out into different classes: public interface RDFComponent { public abstract String getValue (); } public interface RDFSubject extends RDFComponent { public abstract boolean isPrefix (); } public interface RDFPredicate extends RDFComponent { } public interface RDFObject extends RDFComponent { public abstract boolean isResource (); public abstract boolean isXML (); } public interface RDFStatement { public abstract RDFSubject getSubject (); public abstract RDFPredicate getPredicate (); public abstract RDFObject getObject (); } Obviously, there's a much more complex model underlying RDF than the spec lets on, and that model affects not only the ease or difficulty of implementing an object model, but also the difficult of many standard operations like queries against a collection of RDF statements and storage in a relational database. I'd love to hear from others on this list who've worked with RDF. It's full of some very good ideas, but I'm afraid that the underlying (and hidden) conceptual complexity might stunt any serious implementation. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 3 18:02:53 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Example of using conditional sections? References: <372DBDF4.6E3DAFD8@mitre.org> Message-ID: <372DC846.7A74D4BD@pacbell.net> "Roger L. Costello" wrote: > > Can someone give me a practical example of using conditional sections in > a DTD? I am having a hard time seeing any real use for it. Every > example that I come up with is better solved using the optional "?" > operator. /Roger Look at the XHTML modularization working draft ... conditional sections are used for conditionally including feature modules (which may not be the term from that WD!) such as XHTML tables. Only if you want that feature would you define the parameter entity so it is conditionally included. That's a typical use. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 3 18:52:40 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Experiment Message-ID: Hi, I am searching a NDS directory for an experiment. I do not have a NDS directory available. Here is the experiment: a) a XML document is parsed and its elements are stored in a grove b) The grove itself is composed of NDS objects. Each object being defined by a NDS schema. c) Each grove element is then accessed though LDAP or NDS queries. I only need access for a certain period and won't take too much memory. The experiment will be limited to small documents. Thus, I only need a root directory element with a schema named "document" (I'll provide the schema) and then all children are "documentElement" objects. email me if you have such installation and some space for the experiment. Thanks in advance, This experiment may help build bridges between two worlds ignoring each other. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Mon May 3 19:35:43 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: ECG data and XML Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF416@RED-MSG-08> Patrice Bonhomme asks how to put binary data into an XML instance. Obviously, one cannot just put binary data inline without some form of encoding. Here one has choices, and no specific encoding for this purpose is presently endorsed by the W3C or IETF, though some recommendations may come from the W3C XML schemas effort. Microsoft's MSXML parser, shipped with IE5, supports MIME base64 encoding. You can read about this at http://www.microsoft.com/xml. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wperry at fiduciary.com Mon May 3 19:59:25 1999 From: wperry at fiduciary.com (W. E. Perry) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> David Megginson wrote: > Obviously, there's a much more complex model underlying RDF than the > spec lets on, and that model affects not only the ease or difficulty > of implementing an object model, but also the difficult of many > standard operations like queries against a collection of RDF > statements and storage in a relational database. May I respectfully submit that the problem is not the complexity of the model underlying RDF, but its simplicity and relative freedom from restriction, permitting the very sort of extension that leads to the implementational problems David Megginson illustrates. Or, stated from the opposite perspective, obvious real-world implementations of RDF build upon the assumption that the standard specifies, or at least implies, a more holistic view of metadata than it does. The unfortunate truth is that implementations of RDF--even as they grow step-by-step as complex as David Megginson illustrates--never model anything more than individual resources: they do not, even as a by-product, model the body of modeled resources as a whole. Effectively it is just such a cumulative body of metadata which David Megginson is seeking. It would provide the ability to refer to components larger than simple subjects, predicates and objects, such as resources as objects or prefixes as subjects. Such a framework would comprehend and permit reference to any such objects either top-down, from the perspectives of their larger containers, or bottom-up from the perspective of their sub-components. In fact, it appears that this inability to implement the innate human assumption of a larger framework, not specified by the simple details of RDF, is a shortcoming not just of RDF but of structured markup generally. Recent debates on this list about the unification of XSL and XLink revolve around symptoms of the same problem. The increasingly centrifugal nature of the whole body of XML standards could reasonably be described as the failure of building upon the details to produce as a by-product a framework which multiplies the interconnections and the interdependence among them. My own work is in implementing a database engine which operates directly upon XML markup. Its first premise is that XML markup describes, primarily, structure and that manipulating XML documents on their own terms means managing them on the terms of whatever structure the instance markup describes. From my (hardly disinterested) perspective, it is this ability which David Megginson seems to be wishing for in describing the implementational difficulties of RDF: if, for example, an object is a resource, it should be manipulable as either (and both) an object and a resource. Implementation of the simple details of RDF will not provide that, but database tools which can operate on structure described by XML markup, to whatever level of complexity, can. As David Megginson's examples illustrate, the implementation strategy implied by RDF (and other XML specification) details is agglutinative, an inherently linear process. We need implementation tools--and not just for RDF--which are also agglomerative, building a larger ball or sphere of interconnected structure from the details of instance markup as it is processed. Walter Perry xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon May 3 20:29:29 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:39 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <372DEB39.422E24F@mitre.org> David, I see where you are going with this - develop an API for RDF. Out of curiosity, why isn't the SAX API adequate? After all, RDF is just XML. Let the application deal with it. /Roger David Megginson wrote: > > The more I work with RDF, the more I find it fascinating in the > abstract but annoying in the concrete. > > The biggest problem is that RDF claims an extremely simple data model > > statement: subject, predicate, object > > but that the model does not even come close to describing what > information actually appears in an RDF statement. Let's start with > the most naive mapping into a Java object model: > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract String getSubject (); > public abstract String getPredicate (); > public abstract String getObject (); > } > > This will work fine for something like the following: > > xmlns:dc="http://www.purl.org/dc#"> > > Megginson Technologies > > > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" > statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" > > However, it falls apart quickly when the value of the property is a > resource: > > xmlns:dc="http://www.purl.org/dc#"> > > > > > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Creator" > statement.getObject() => "http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/" > > In the first case, the object was a literal, and in the second case, > the object is a resource; however, the naive interface does not make > this information available. The only solution is to add a new > property to the Java interface: > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract String getSubject (); > public abstract String getPredicate (); > public abstract String getObject (); > public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); > } > > Now, for the first example, we have > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" > statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" > statement.objectIsResource() => false > > and for the second example, we have > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Creator" > statement.getObject() => "http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/" > statement.objectIsResource() => true > > Unfortunately, we're not nearly through yet. The next nasty bit comes > from the aboutEachPrefix attribute. For example, here's a modified > version of the first example: > > xmlns:dc="http://www.purl.org/dc#"> > > Megginson Technologies > > > > Now, this description no longer applies just to > http://www.megginson.com/, but to *all* resources whose URIs begin > with http://www.megginson.com/ (a constantly-changing set, and, in the > case of CGIs or Servlets, potentially infinite). As a result, the > following information is no longer sufficient: > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" > statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" > statement.objectIsResource() => false > > We need to modify the interface once again > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract String getSubject (); > public abstract String getPredicate (); > public abstract String getObject (); > public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); > public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); > } > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Title" > statement.getObject() => "Megginson Technologies" > statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true > statement.objectIsResource() => false > > But wait -- there's more. The RDF spec states that the 'xml:lang' > attribute does not modify the data model, but rather, is a property of > the (underspecified) literal. Consider the following (RDF purists > would perfer to use an RDF:Alt, but let's keep things simple): > > xmlns:dc="http://www.purl.org/dc#"> > > markup > balisage > > > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" > statement.getObject() => "markup" > statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true > statement.objectIsResource() => false > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" > statement.getObject() => "balisage" > statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true > statement.objectIsResource() => false > > The language distinction is missing from our model, so we have to add > yet another property to the Java interface: > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract String getSubject (); > public abstract String getPredicate (); > public abstract String getObject (); > public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); > public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); > public abstract String getObjectLang (); > } > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" > statement.getObject() => "markup" > statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true > statement.objectIsResource() => false > statement.getObjectLang() => "en" > > statement.getSubject() => "http://www.megginson.com/" > statement.getPredicate() => "http://www.purl.org/dc#Subject" > statement.getObject() => "balisage" > statement.subjectIsPrefix() => true > statement.objectIsResource() => false > statement.getObjectLang() => "fr" > > We're still not done. Take a look at the following: > > xmlns:megg="http://www.megginson.com/ns#"> > > > > Roses are red, > Violets are blue > Sugar is sweet, > And I love you. > > > > > > Since the element sets the 'rdf:parseType' attribute to > "Literal", the contents of the element will not be interpreted as RDF > markup. As a result, the value of this statement is a literal string: > > statement.getObject() => " > > Roses are red, > Violets are blue > Sugar is sweet, > And I love you. > > " > statement.objectIsLiteral() => true > > If I were to round-trip this back to XML, however, how would I know > that it was meant to be XML markup? My software might just as easily > generate the following: > > xmlns:megg="http://www.megginson.com/ns#"> > > > <poem> > <line>Roses are red,</line> > <line>Violets are blue</line> > <line>Sugar is sweet,</line> > <line>And I love you.</line> > </poem> > > > > > This probably isn't what I want. As a result, I have to add more > information to my Java interface to note whether the literal value is > meant to be read as XML markup: > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract String getSubject (); > public abstract String getPredicate (); > public abstract String getObject (); > public abstract boolean subjectIsPrefix (); > public abstract boolean objectIsResource (); > public abstract boolean objectIsXML (); > public abstract String getObjectLang (); > } > > At this point, it might make sense to split this out into different > classes: > > public interface RDFComponent > { > public abstract String getValue (); > } > > public interface RDFSubject extends RDFComponent > { > public abstract boolean isPrefix (); > } > > public interface RDFPredicate extends RDFComponent > { > } > > public interface RDFObject extends RDFComponent > { > public abstract boolean isResource (); > public abstract boolean isXML (); > } > > public interface RDFStatement > { > public abstract RDFSubject getSubject (); > public abstract RDFPredicate getPredicate (); > public abstract RDFObject getObject (); > } > > Obviously, there's a much more complex model underlying RDF than the > spec lets on, and that model affects not only the ease or difficulty > of implementing an object model, but also the difficult of many > standard operations like queries against a collection of RDF > statements and storage in a relational database. > > I'd love to hear from others on this list who've worked with RDF. > It's full of some very good ideas, but I'm afraid that the underlying > (and hidden) conceptual complexity might stunt any serious > implementation. > > All the best, > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 3 20:49:11 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model In-Reply-To: <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> Message-ID: <14125.60701.227468.366853@localhost.localdomain> W. E. Perry writes: > David Megginson wrote: > > > Obviously, there's a much more complex model underlying RDF than the > > spec lets on, and that model affects not only the ease or difficulty > > of implementing an object model, but also the difficult of many > > standard operations like queries against a collection of RDF > > statements and storage in a relational database. > May I respectfully submit that the problem is not the complexity of > the model underlying RDF, but its simplicity and relative freedom > from restriction, permitting the very sort of extension that leads > to the implementational problems David Megginson illustrates. I'm not certain that I follow -- I did not consider extensions at all in my essay. Certainly, it is possible to build complex layers on top of a simple data model, and much of what is in the RDF-syntax spec (such as the containers, rdf:type, rdf:value, rdf:Statement, etc.) together with all of the RDF-schema spec can be taken in that light; as a result, I considered none of that in my model. The problem is that the bottom-level, primitive model required for RDF support is itself rather complicated. It is certainly fair, in the model, to include Statement --------- - Subject - Predicate - Object but you also have to specify what a Subject, Predicate, and Object are. They are not simply resources/URIs, but have properties of their own: Subject ------- - value - isPrefix? Predicate --------- - value Object ------ - value - language - isResource? - isXML? This is the bare-bones RDF data model, according to my reading of the spec. Now, I will certainly admit that I have not been involved in the RDF design process, and may have misunderstood something: I encourage all members of XML Dev to feel free to correct me, no matter how experienced or inexperienced they may be with RDF. > Effectively it is just such a cumulative body of metadata which > David Megginson is seeking. It would provide the ability to refer > to components larger than simple subjects, predicates and objects, > such as resources as objects or prefixes as subjects. Such a > framework would comprehend and permit reference to any such objects > either top-down, from the perspectives of their larger containers, > or bottom-up from the perspective of their sub-components. I don't think that that's what I was looking for, though it certainly sounds interesting. Right now, I'm just considering the smallest possible data model required for implementing the RDF-syntax specification. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 3 21:16:23 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990503121511.017214d0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:21 AM 5/3/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >The more I work with RDF, the more I find it fascinating in the >abstract but annoying in the concrete. Hmm, as I write this, I'm chewing away on a data set with about half a million RDF tuples. I'm having an easier time of it than David, but I think that's because I'm trying to do less. Mostly, my software needs to answer two questions: (a) what are all the properties of URL XXX? variation: what is the value (if any) of URL XXX's property YYY? (b) what URLs have ? There are two bits of complexity - one is that you have a boolean associated with each property value saying whether it's a literal or a URL. Although I haven't actually used it - in my data set, some properties always have literal values, others always have URL values. The second is the "aboutPrefix" stuff, which on reflection I consider a hideous bogosity. I know how it got into RDF, they had a drop-dead requirement to be able to emulate PICS, which has this prefix stuff. I can even understand how you might use it, but I still think it's a mistake. It doesn't get in the way of question (a) above, but it certainly plays hell with (b). Perhaps the key is that I'm not trying to construct a comprehensive object model - I'm just trying to use metadata to look things up. I find RDF just fine for that. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 3 21:31:23 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990503121511.017214d0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990503121511.017214d0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14125.62991.577360.858340@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > Hmm, as I write this, I'm chewing away on a data set with about > half a million RDF tuples. I'm having an easier time of it than > David, but I think that's because I'm trying to do less. [snip] Just so -- personally, I've had no need to use most of the stuff either (it's a classic 80/20 thing), and I've written ad-hoc RDF libraries that work just fine for my customers' real-world requirements, including one for WavePhore that's happily processing streaming RDF data records for over 2,000 newswire stories (probably more than that by now) every day at dozens of customer sites. Certainly, we can define formats that happen to be RDF-compatible (like XMLNews-Meta [1]), but to create a general-purpose RDF processing software that will make it worthwhile to standardize on RDF, we have to implement all of the bogosity in the spec. -- hence my complaint. I have no problem writing an RDF/Foo engine for customer A, and RDF/Bar engine for customer B, and an RDF/Hack engine for customer C -- heck, I'm billing for them -- but they should all be able to share the same RDF engine(s); otherwise, why not just define the Foo, Bar, and Hack formats directly, without worrying about RDF compatibility? > Perhaps the key is that I'm not trying to construct a comprehensive > object model - I'm just trying to use metadata to look things up. > I find RDF just fine for that. Exactly, but you're free to implement only the subset that you need for your project -- as you know, people do exactly the same with XML (though with so many good parsers now, most just use the DOM or SAX). All the best, David [1] http://www.xmlnews.org/docs/xmlnews-meta.html -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 3 21:32:08 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model In-Reply-To: <372DEB39.422E24F@mitre.org> References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DEB39.422E24F@mitre.org> Message-ID: <199905031931.PAA02776@megginson.com> Roger L. Costello writes: > I see where you are going with this - develop an API for RDF. Out > of curiosity, why isn't the SAX API adequate? After all, RDF is > just XML. Let the application deal with it. /Roger I haven't decided if I want to do this kind of thing myself. I still owe it to everyone to get moving again with SAX2, after spending so much of my time and energy on XMLNews. As for the API, the SAX API would certainly go a long way, but it's not adequate; after all, Java already has the java.io.Reader class, and XML documents contain characters, so the application could deal with that too and skip SAX altogether. What RDF is trying to do is very important -- XML itself is very low-level, like IP (I know I've beat that analogy nearly to death), and we can benefit from standard, higher-level layers built on top. Now it happens that RDF defines a layer for exchanging objects and their properties, and a good, production-grade engine that could important and export RDF would be extremely useful. The XML spec shipped without a data model, and the RDF spec shipped with a badly underspecified one. Which is better? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 3 22:42:35 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DEB39.422E24F@mitre.org> Message-ID: <372DDAAB.16864864@prescod.net> "Roger L. Costello" wrote: > > David, > > I see where you are going with this - develop an API for RDF. Out of > curiosity, why isn't the SAX API adequate? After all, RDF is just XML. > Let the application deal with it. /Roger RDF has its own data model *expressed in* XML. In the same way, XML has a data model expressed in Unicode. One could ask: "Why do we need an XML API when every programming language has a character reading API." But the XML data model is not the Unicode data model. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Diplomatic term: "We had a frank exchange of views." Translation: Negotiations stopped just short of shouting and table-banging. (Brill's Content, Apr. 1999) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 3 23:20:11 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: One million new XML documents before May 31 (was Re: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model) In-Reply-To: <14125.62991.577360.858340@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.32.19990503121511.017214d0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <14125.62991.577360.858340@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14126.4427.108170.95357@localhost.localdomain> David Megginson writes: > Just so -- personally, I've had no need to use most of the stuff > either (it's a classic 80/20 thing), and I've written ad-hoc RDF > libraries that work just fine for my customers' real-world > requirements, including one for WavePhore that's happily processing > streaming RDF data records for over 2,000 newswire stories > (probably more than that by now) every day at dozens of customer > sites. I just found out that WavePhore's actually sending out 26,000 newswire stories every day now: that's 26,000 XMLNews-Meta (RDF) records *and* 26,000 XMLNews-Story (NITF) documents, for a total of 52,000 new XML documents every day, or over one million new XML documents every 20 days.* I don't know the numbers from others using XMLNews. All the best, David * Or over 1 billion new XML documents every 53 years -- not quite as fast as MacDonald's flips burgers, but people cannot read as fast as they can eat. -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Mon May 3 23:21:49 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model In-Reply-To: <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> (wperry@fiduciary.com) References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> Message-ID: <199905032057.PAA06649@bruno.techno.com> [Walter E. Perry:] > We need implementation tools--and not just for RDF--which are also > agglomerative, building a larger ball or sphere of interconnected > structure from the details of instance markup as it is processed. Sounds like you are at a point where you can recognize that the grove paradigm is, in the end, the right solution. It's already an international standard: ISO/IEC 10744:1997 Annex A.4. It's a common fallacy that the interchange syntax of an information set (such as might be constrained by an XML DTD) should also be the API to that information set. But APIs are a completely different animal from interchange syntaxes, in which, for example, redundancy is desirable, instead of undesirable. I've noticed that at least some proponents of RDF tend to be trapped in this fallacy, and David Megginson's efforts to make sense of RDF dramatizes some of the problems that this fallacy causes, such as the many unnamed properties that turn out to be both implicit and required. (Indeed, RDF itself appears to be designed to promulgate the "syntax is API" fallacy.) The "syntax is API" fallacy is a well-intentioned simplifying assumption that, instead of simplifying, creates complexity and significantly reduces human productivity. Einstein once said something to the effect that things should be as simple as possible, and no simpler. In the domain of information interchange, groves, inheritable information architectures, and property sets for inheritable information architectures make things as simple as possible, and no simpler. The hidden and implicit properties of information expressed in RDF, for example, can be formalized, named, and made addressable by means of a property set. The exercise of creating such a property set, in turn, allows re-usable software modules for RDF to be used as a partners to applications that need to manipulate information that is interchanged according to RDF syntax. My company has developed an implementation of the ISO grove paradigm called "GroveMinder". Those who want the demo should contact me. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Tue May 4 01:55:48 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: One million new XML documents before May 31 (was Re: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model) In-Reply-To: <14126.4427.108170.95357@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 May 1999, David Megginson wrote: > David Megginson writes: > > > Just so -- personally, I've had no need to use most of the stuff > > either (it's a classic 80/20 thing), and I've written ad-hoc RDF > > libraries that work just fine for my customers' real-world > > requirements, including one for WavePhore that's happily processing > > streaming RDF data records for over 2,000 newswire stories > > (probably more than that by now) every day at dozens of customer > > sites. > > I just found out that WavePhore's actually sending out 26,000 newswire > stories every day now: that's 26,000 XMLNews-Meta (RDF) records *and* > 26,000 XMLNews-Story (NITF) documents, for a total of 52,000 new XML > documents every day, or over one million new XML documents every 20 > days.* I don't know the numbers from others using XMLNews. Cool! We should also not forget another relatively behind-the-scenes XML/RDF application (even if the details are a little hokey). Netscape's "What's Related" application is massively deployed on thousands of desktops; when punters click on the whats-related widget in recent copies of Navigator, it makes a simple HTTP query to their metadata server which returns a chunk of XML-shaped text. For example see http://www-rl.netscape.com/wtgn?www.xmlnews.org The Netscape folks had plenty of stick on the RDF-DEV list for various problems with the actual file format used (see notes at [1]) but looking beyond that, it's still rather cool. Also next to invisible despite the presumably vast amounts of XMLish data flowing between www-rl.netscape.com and desktop browsers. Dan [1] http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/discovery/rdf-dev/files/wtgn-notes/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 4 03:23:44 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:40 2004 Subject: Dreadfully tedious questions Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> I know you must get these a lot, but I've been unable to find the answers in any of the usual FAQs. Also, I've only read about the past month's archive of this list (which did answer one of my questions, thanks), so I apologize if this is old dirt -- just point me to the right month and I'll find the answers myself! My company is working on a really cool browser plug-in, and I'm thinking of switching to an XML-derived language for use as the plug-in's scripting language. I want to do this in a way which is consistent with other uses of XML, and I have some pretty basic questions: 0) What FAQ did I miss which answered these must-be-frequently-asked quesions?!?! 1) What case do I use? Judging from MathML and SVG documents I've read, it looks like the trend is toward all lower case tags. Is this the consensus style out there? What if my tag is two words? Would: or some other style be the preferred approach? I know this may seem unimportant to you, but believe me, programmers care about case A LOT! I want to be consistent with what everyone else is doing. ] The next question *was* going to be: ] ]2) How the heck do I decide whether to use an attribute or an element? ] ] But after reading about 100 messages on the subject in the Oasis ] archives, I've concluded there is no answer to this question! ] ] I'll rephrase... 2) Will the forthcoming very smart XML editors do better with one of these over another? [attributes/elements that is; this question derives from a common answer that the editor you are using is a big determiner of what is a better design, which struck me as a bizarre way to choose] 3) Is expat the best choice for embedding an XML parser in my plug-in (the plug-in is written in C++, of course)? 4) Should I use one of the schema contenders to define my DTD? I have a lot more to say about my elements and attributes than just their syntax. At a minimum I'd like to document each of them with a little comment-size blurb. If there's a good chance I could capture this together with the syntax using one of the XML schema approaches, run that through a program to produce the DTD, and later have the schema ready to provide to a very smart XML editor (which could pop up tips based on my embedded documentation), I'd rather invest the time to do that now. Is one of the schema approaches winning the standards battle? Do schema->DTD translator tools exist? Do the XML editor writing companies realize how cool this capability would be? 5) Have the browser guys figured out how they're going to farm out individual elements to plug-ins? It's kind of obvious that XML is a really good way to fix the headache of plugin/ActiveX/applet incompatibilities in HTML. Isn't it? Thanks in advance. I promise future questions won't be so basic! ;) -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 4 12:31:31 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: Dreadfully tedious questions In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> Message-ID: <14126.51662.100229.38930@localhost.localdomain> Joshua E. Smith writes: > 0) What FAQ did I miss which answered these must-be-frequently-asked > quesions?!?! That one that you can write and distribute when you've finished collecting the answers (??). > 1) What case do I use? > > Judging from MathML and SVG documents I've read, it looks like the > trend is toward all lower case tags. Is this the consensus style > out there? What if my tag is two words? Would: > > > > > > > or some other style be the preferred approach? I know this may > seem unimportant to you, but believe me, programmers care about > case A LOT! I want to be consistent with what everyone else is > doing. I rarely see , but both and seem fairly common, and shows up occasionally. > ] The next question *was* going to be: > ] > ]2) How the heck do I decide whether to use an attribute or an element? > ] > ] But after reading about 100 messages on the subject in the Oasis > ] archives, I've concluded there is no answer to this question! Correct. > ] I'll rephrase... > > 2) Will the forthcoming very smart XML editors do better with one > of these over another? [attributes/elements that is; this question > derives from a common answer that the editor you are using is a big > determiner of what is a better design, which struck me as a bizarre > way to choose] Although this will not necessarily be the case (especially with smart stylesheets), the general trend is for element content to be visible on the screen and attribute values to be visible only when you call up a dialog box. From an editing perspective, I tend to use elements for most of the important information, and attributes for stuff that I don't need always to see (such as ID's). > 3) Is expat the best choice for embedding an XML parser in my plug-in (the > plug-in is written in C++, of course)? Expat's been well tested. SP has been even better tested, and unlike Expat, it supports DTD validation; however, SP has a basically undocumented and extremely complicated interface, and it's really a full SGML parser. IBM has a brand-new parser, xml4c++ (I think), at alphaworks.ibm.com. This hasn't had the field testing that Expat and SP have had, but it looks promising. > 4) Should I use one of the schema contenders to define my DTD? Sure, if it's helpful. One nice thing about most of the contenders is that you can mix the schema and its documentation in a single document for easier maintenance (as you mention below). Be prepared, though, to write a program to generate a DTD from your schema, and eventually, to write a transformation tool to convert the schema to whatever the XML Schema group chooses. > I have a lot more to say about my elements and attributes than just their > syntax. At a minimum I'd like to document each of them with a little > comment-size blurb. > If there's a good chance I could capture this together with the syntax > using one of the XML schema approaches, run that through a program to > produce the DTD, and later have the schema ready to provide to a very smart > XML editor (which could pop up tips based on my embedded documentation), > I'd rather invest the time to do that now. > > Is one of the schema approaches winning the standards battle? Do > schema->DTD translator tools exist? Do the XML editor writing companies > realize how cool this capability would be? You'll know what's happening when the Schema WG releases its working draft. Personally, I expect to see something completely different, with individual features chosen from each of the contenders. > 5) Have the browser guys figured out how they're going to farm out > individual elements to plug-ins? I'm sure that Microsoft has, but don't count on the Web community marching in step. > It's kind of obvious that XML is a really good way to fix the headache of > plugin/ActiveX/applet incompatibilities in HTML. Isn't it? Yeah, well, maybe. At least, you can keep the data for your plugin/ActiveX/applet in the same format -- otherwise, the incompatibilities are still there. > Thanks in advance. I promise future questions won't be so basic! ;) Nothing too basic here -- you proved yourself by looking up the FAQ on elements and attributes before posting. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue May 4 13:38:00 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: RDF Schema Question: range of values of an rdfs:Class? Message-ID: <372EDC53.468D8FE5@mitre.org> I will state my question, then give an example to demonstrate my question, and then restate my question. Question: if I create an RDF Schema Class, then what is its rdf:range of values? Example: In section 7 of the RDF Schema spec there are a number examples. My question pertains to Example 1. In Example 1 a Person Class is defined. A maritalStatus property is then defined and its domain property is set to Person (i.e., the maritalStatus property can be used with Person). The range of maritalStatus is the Class MaritalStatus. Here are the definitions: The class of people. In the example it says that the possible values for the maritalStatus property are: {Married, Divorced, Single, Widowed}. Here is where I have a question. How did the range of possible values for maritalStatus suddenly get restricted to these four values? In the example it creates four instances of the MaritalStatus Class: Presumably, this is where the four values were gotten from. Something seems fishy here. I am having difficulty relating this to my Java background. In Java, if I create a class MaritalStatus: public class MaritalStatus {...} then in another class create some instances of MaritalStatus: MaritalStatus married = new MaritalStatus(); MaritalStatus divorced = new MaritalStatus(); MaritalStatus single = new MaritalStatus(); MaritalStatus widowed = new MaritalStatus(); and now if I create a variable maritalStatus, of type MaritalStatus: MaritalStatus maritalStatus; then its range of possible values is not {married, divorced, single, widowed}. Certainly, maritalStatus can be set equal to one of these instance variables. For example: maritalStatus = married; However, it can take on values other than these as well. For example: maritalStatus = new MaritalStatus(); Okay, now that I've convinced myself that I don't understand the example in the RDF Schema spec, let me restate my question: how did that example come up with just those four values for the maritalStatus property? In general, if I create a Class, how do I specify its range of values? Cheers! /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue May 4 13:48:36 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: RDF Question: just need to reference the parent class for domain? Message-ID: <372EDED0.4779757A@mitre.org> Consider this RDF Schema definition: Note that SLR is a subClass of Camera. In the definition of the f-stop property I indicate what domains the property may be used in - Camera and SLR. My question is this: since SLR is a subclass of Camera then can I omit the second domain property, i.e., just use: f-stop can be used in any sublasses of Camera and I don't have to specify all the subclasses that it may be used in. Correct? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Tue May 4 13:49:06 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: ECG data and XML In-Reply-To: <199905030625.IAA09015@chimay.loria.fr> Message-ID: <000801be9622$f0dd1df0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Patrice Bonhomme wrote: > > I am working on a system to handle ECG (Electrocardiogram) binary > data. I am > using XML to manage all the meta-data (concerning identification, > patient, > folder, ...). I was wondering if someone else has already put his > hands in > this kind of data. Yes, certainly there are several options for handling binary data, as is pointed out in the article at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/98/07/binary/binary.html namely: 1) maintain binary data in an external file and use notations/links to reference 2) maintain binary data inline in a base64 encoded element, to see an example send a MIME e-mail with a binary attachment, e.g. your ECG file, to test-xmtp@jabr.ne.mediaone.net and it will send it back to you in XML encoded MIME format. 3) use a MIME multipart/related message to maintain an XML part (metadata) and a binary part (or parts) in a single document 4) convert the 'binary' ECG data into vector format and transmit as XML e.g. in SVG format. SVG is particularly well positioned to handle ECG data (as opposed to x-ray data). Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 4 13:51:59 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: Dreadfully tedious questions In-Reply-To: <14126.51662.100229.38930@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504074815.0105149c@tiac.net> Thanks for the quick response! Follow ups... > > 0) What FAQ did I miss which answered these must-be-frequently-asked > > quesions?!?! > >That one that you can write and distribute when you've finished >collecting the answers (??). Maybe I will... > [blah blah blah]attributes[blah blah]elements[blah blah blah] In looking for other stylistic examples to follow, I've notice some really serious inconsistency in approach, particularly in the W3C's documents. At one extreme, you've got MathML with almost no attributes at all, and at the other extreme, you've got SVG with almost no elements (and every attribute has it's own exotic syntax). I found a DTD prototype for VRML which was similar to SVG (everything in the attributes, attributes require MORE PARSING by the application). How do y'all react when you see attributes like this one from a VRML DTD: ... Now, I suppose that's a lot leaner than breaking out all the 3D and 4D vectors as elements (or their w,x,y,z parts as attributes), but isn't it a bit squirrley to hide that much of the syntax inside strings? > > 3) Is expat the best choice for embedding an XML parser in my plug-in (the > > plug-in is written in C++, of course)? > >Expat's been well tested. SP has been even better tested, and unlike >Expat, it supports DTD validation; however, SP has a basically >undocumented and extremely complicated interface, and it's really a >full SGML parser. > >IBM has a brand-new parser, xml4c++ (I think), at alphaworks.ibm.com. >This hasn't had the field testing that Expat and SP have had, but it >looks promising. xml4c++'s disclaimers ("this software sucks" is the general drift, sort of like the mozilla disclaimers) are pretty scary. Also, how big is the redistributable DLL? (I'm not going to sign their license unless there's a chance it'll be small enough to be practical in a plug-in) What's SP? Does that have a different name, because I haven't seen it in my web travels. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 4 14:59:14 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: SP APIs (was re: Dreadfully tedious questions) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990504074815.0105149c@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> <14126.51662.100229.38930@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990504074815.0105149c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <14126.60877.411308.972294@localhost.localdomain> Joshua E. Smith writes: > What's SP? Does that have a different name, because I haven't seen > it in my web travels. That's James Clark's original C++ class library for parsing SGML. http:/www.jclark.com/sp/ You'd better be able to recite the GOF book and the ANSI C++ standard backwards from memory before you try to puzzle out the undocumented native API from the *.h files. The few of us who have attacked the native SP API without such preparation have ended up clearly insane, and amuse ourselves only by posting long, rambling messages to mailing lists. SP also has a simple API (with documentation) that might do. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Tue May 4 16:01:54 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:41 2004 Subject: RDF Schema Question: range of values of an rdfs:Class? In-Reply-To: <372EDC53.468D8FE5@mitre.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Roger L. Costello wrote: > Question: if I create an RDF Schema Class, then what is its rdf:range of > values? [...] > In the example it says that the possible values for the maritalStatus > property are: {Married, Divorced, Single, Widowed}. Here is where I > have a question. How did the range of possible values for maritalStatus > suddenly get restricted to these four values? In the example it creates > four instances of the MaritalStatus Class: > > > > > > > Presumably, this is where the four values were gotten from. Something > seems fishy here. I see your concern. The main thing to say on this is that it is a trust issue: "Whether resources declared to be of type MaritalStatus in another graph are trusted is an application level decision." (from http://www.w3.org/TR/PR-rdf-schema/ 7.1) In other words, the core schema machinery only lets you say that 'maritalStatus' makes sense for values that are of rdf:type MaritalStatus. What this minimalistic spec doesn't itself give you is a comprehensive framework for figuring out whose data to trust. How one sets about this is likely to depend on details of your application; in some contexts, for example, it might be rather useful to learn about new instances of such classes. In others, this could be a security concern (as could trusting the contents of random XML or RDF data in general). Earlier working drafts listed this topic as an open issue (which was resolved ultimately in favour of minimalism). Here's the text from http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/WD-rdf-schema-19980814/ C.12. Class Sealing We would like to define a mechanism for 'sealing' an RDF Class, so that it becomes illegal to make certain RDF statements involving it. This is loosely analogous to the notion of 'final' classes in Java / OO programming. We might, for example, want to stop people creating subclasses of the class, or creating property types which have that class as their domain. The degree of sophistication required of the class sealing mechanism is as yet unclear: we might (for example) wish to consider the feasibility of using digital signatures in this context. I am having difficulty relating this to my Java > background. In Java, if I create a class MaritalStatus: [...] The analogy with Java can be overstretched, but this was a good comparison. In both cases, any object/resource that was known to be of the appropriate type would be allowed. The difference is that in RDF/Web context, we won't necessarily believe every assertion that some resource is of a certain type. hope this helps, dan -- Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1TN, UK. phone:+44(0)117-9287096 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Tue May 4 16:11:08 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: RDF Question: just need to reference the parent class for domain? In-Reply-To: <372EDED0.4779757A@mitre.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 4 May 1999, Roger L. Costello wrote: > Note that SLR is a subClass of Camera. In the definition of the f-stop > property I indicate what domains the property may be used in - Camera > and SLR. My question is this: since SLR is a subclass of Camera then > can I omit the second domain property[...] > f-stop can be used in any sublasses of Camera and I don't have to > specify all the subclasses that it may be used in. Correct? /Roger Yes. If you say that f-stop has a domain of class 'Camera', you're claiming that it makes sense (ie. is consistent) to apply f-stop properties to resources that are members of that class. "Sub-class" just says that one set of resources is a subset of another. So we know that if a resource is of type SLR, and all SLRs are Cameras (ie. SLR--subClassOf-->Camera), then that resource is also a camera. And if its a camera, we can use properties applicable to cameras on it. Dan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 4 16:48:06 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: RDF Schema Question: range of values of an rdfs:Class? References: <372EDC53.468D8FE5@mitre.org> Message-ID: <372F0880.6118F1CC@locke.ccil.org> Roger L. Costello wrote: > Okay, now that I've convinced myself that I don't understand the example > in the RDF Schema spec, let me restate my question: how did that > example come up with just those four values for the maritalStatus > property? In general, if I create a Class, how do I specify its range > of values? That is part of a general unsolved problem having to do with "How do you know when there are (no) more relevant RDF statements?" In this case, the example is taking a "closed world" assumption that says "No instances of MaritalStatus exist except the ones created in this RDF document." In other cases, of course, an "open world" assumption prevails. Hopefully some mechanism for indicating closure will eventually be created. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 4 16:59:04 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> More questions from the new guy... First, an easy one: If a language is defined in XML, you would say that language is XML-______. Compliant? Derived? ish? ey? Compatible? Now the harder ones... I'm trying to choose a parser to use in my plugin. I see a choice between expat, which is non-validating, and will increase my download size by <100K, and SP which is validating, and will increase my download size by about 1MB. Gak. I suppose that the validation should really be done a priori by the content developer using a validating editor, so doing validation in my plugin is really unnecessary. Is that true? Do commercial validating XML editors exist yet? I also suppose that my DTD is going to be pretty big by the time it's done, and downloading it every time someone wants to use my plugin is kind of stupid. Right? So that's another reason NOT to use a validating parser. I think I'm starting to understand why they went to the trouble of distinguishing well-formed from valid. But in my reading [XML Specification Guide: Graham, Quin, 1999], it appears that non-validating parsers are allowed to ignore tons of stuff. Is there ANY documentation of what expat actually *does*? (For that matter, is there any documentation at all?) I assume it ignores external entities, right? That means I can't rely on putting boilerplate (think C #include files) into an external parsed general entity if I go with expat, right? If you were using a programming language which is XML-ish, what XML features would you be annoyed to see left out (substitution of entities is an obvious one, which I've seen 3DML slammed for)? Of those features, which does expat not do (and therefore I'll have to do in my application, or extend expat to do -- three cheers for open source!)? I'd rather not have any DLLs hanging around with my plugin -- do any of you have experience linking xmltok and xmlparse statically under Win32? Any surprises, or tricks I need to know about? I have another related question, but I'll post it separately. Thanks in advance for any insights!!!! -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue May 4 17:17:35 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: RDF Schema Question: adding new domains to a property? Message-ID: <372F0FC6.5C36296D@mitre.org> As a followup to my last question, where I had the Camera example: Here I show (using the rdfs:domain definitions) f-stop as being usable by Camera and SLR objects. Suppose that I create a new Class (not a subclass of Camera), and I wish to be able to use the f-stop property with that new Class. What do I need to do? Add a new line to the f-stop property definition? In general, what advantage is there in forcing a property to be used specifically with a Class? When would you ever want to do this? It seems like there would not be many, if any, cases where you would want to restrict where a property could be used. /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 4 17:25:41 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: The Syntax is API Fallacy (was Re: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model) In-Reply-To: <199905032057.PAA06649@bruno.techno.com> References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> <199905032057.PAA06649@bruno.techno.com> Message-ID: <14127.3202.902977.914788@localhost.localdomain> Steven R. Newcomb writes: > The "syntax is API" fallacy is a well-intentioned simplifying > assumption that, instead of simplifying, creates complexity and > significantly reduces human productivity. Just so. When we're working in the database world, it should be quite easy to explain the place of structured markup by referring to the different layers of information models: 1. Data Model - the physical organization of the information in storage (such as a collection of SQL tables with primary keys, etc.). 2. Object Model - the logical organization of the information from a programmer's point of view (for example, a collection of Classes that are derived from and/or contain other classes). 3. Interchange Model - the static, serial view of the information for archiving or interchange with external systems (for example, an XML document type). Data system designers are used to thinking about the data and (more recently) the object models, but are just starting to get their minds around the interchange model, now that the Web is enabling (or forcing) them to open up their systems and share more information with outsiders. The most important point in this structure is that the layers are isolated: there is an n:n relationship between interchange models and related object models, and an n:n relationship between object models and related data models. > Einstein once said something to the effect that things should be as > simple as possible, and no simpler. In the domain of information > interchange, groves, inheritable information architectures, and > property sets for inheritable information architectures make things > as simple as possible, and no simpler. Fair enough, but there is no single data model or object model that is appropriate for all systems, whether they happen to use XML or not: Groves (or the DOM, for that matter, or the RDF data model) can serve as an intermediate layer, but there needs to be a domain-specific object model built on top that hides and abstracts the details. XML should rarely be the central focus of a system's design, any more than SQL or CORBA should be; it's just a (very good) enabling standard for the interchange layer, just as SQL is an enabling standard for the data layer and CORBA is an enabling standard for the object layer. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 4 17:38:02 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <14127.4484.111378.578548@localhost.localdomain> Joshua E. Smith writes: > First, an easy one: If a language is defined in XML, you would say that > language is XML-______. Compliant? Derived? ish? ey? Compatible? Conformant. > Now the harder ones... > > I'm trying to choose a parser to use in my plugin. I see a choice > between expat, which is non-validating, and will increase my > download size by <100K, and SP which is validating, and will > increase my download size by about 1MB. Gak. Or you could use Java -- Microstar's non-validating AElfred parser, in a compressed JAR, will increase your download size by only about 15K (plus another 5 or 6K if you use the SAX interfaces). > I suppose that the validation should really be done a priori by the > content developer using a validating editor, so doing validation in > my plugin is really unnecessary. Is that true? It's your call. Remember that XML Validation means only rudimentary structural validation anyway. > Do commercial validating XML editors exist yet? PSGML for Emacs is DTD-driven and free, but will scare away any user who'd be too nervous, say, to install and use Linux. WordPerfect 9.0 has a DTD-driven XML editor built in, and XMetaL from SoftQuad is, I assume, DTD-driven as well. As far as I know, WP 9 and XMetaL are still in beta, and I don't know about the release dates for products from ArborText. There are also some editors that simply use a tree widget to provide an unformatted view of the document -- I haven't kept track of those, but they might be useful for some applications. > I also suppose that my DTD is going to be pretty big by the time > it's done, Possibly not -- it depends on how complex your DTD is. > and downloading it every time someone wants to use my plugin is kind of > stupid. Right? So that's another reason NOT to use a validating parser. A non-validating parser may *still* download the DTD (AElfred does, for example) if you provide a pointer to one. > I think I'm starting to understand why they went to the trouble of > distinguishing well-formed from valid. They're not separate: valid is a subset of well-formed, not an alternative to it. > But in my reading [XML Specification Guide: Graham, Quin, 1999], it > appears that non-validating parsers are allowed to ignore tons of stuff. > Is there ANY documentation of what expat actually *does*? (For that > matter, is there any documentation at all?) I assume it ignores external > entities, right? That means I can't rely on putting boilerplate (think C > #include files) into an external parsed general entity if I go with expat, > right? Or you can preprocess on the server side to expand entities, insert defaulted attribute values, etc. > If you were using a programming language which is XML-ish, what XML > features would you be annoyed to see left out (substitution of entities is > an obvious one, which I've seen 3DML slammed for)? I find it very hard to imagine coding in a Turing-complete programming language that is XML-ish -- markup languages are usually quite clumsy for representing programming languages. What exactly do you mean, here? > Of those features, which does expat not do (and therefore I'll have > to do in my application, or extend expat to do -- three cheers for > open source!)? Expat does not validate the document or expand external text entities (including the external DTD subset, if any). > I'd rather not have any DLLs hanging around with my plugin -- do > any of you have experience linking xmltok and xmlparse statically > under Win32? Any surprises, or tricks I need to know about? The easy solution is to reformat the hard drive and install Linux, but then you wouldn't be able to play Flight Simulator any more (you could play DOOM and Quake, though) -- personally, I keep a small Windows partition for games when I'm not working. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 4 17:39:56 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: Is it OK to rely on invalidity? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504113255.0073f3f8@tiac.net> Are my questions getting hard enough yet? I wouldn't want you all to be bored! ;) Suppose you were using XML to define an object oriented programming language. The language has an object model behind it which is chock full o' classes. For example, there's a class "color" with attributes of "red" "blue" and "green". So in my XML-ish programming language, I can state: to make an instance. Presumably, this would be backed up by a DTD like: Now suppose that I am going to allow the users of my language to create their own classes. A user-defined class would specify the member objects which are to be instanced when the class is instanced. For example, Now wouldn't it be cool, if my user could then instance his own class like this: and my application will make all those constituent members: my-color.whole-color my-color.red-part my-color.blue-part my-color.green-part I think so, but to pull that off, my user would have to extend the DTD do declare his class. Otherwise, while being well-formed, this program is not valid. To make it valid, the programmer would have to extend the DTD with a lot of gobledegook I bet the programmer won't really get (I'm assuming that the XML community will be split between those who write DTDs and those who use them). The alternative, which doesn't require DTD extension, would be to instance user-defined classes using the slightly uglier mechanism: Now instances of user-defined classes look different from built-in classes, which is almost never the case in OO languages. Another problem which pops up is making references to the generated objects. If I want to refer to my-color.red-part in some other object's attributes, I cannot use an IDREF and still be valid (since, as far as the XML parser is concerned, there is no such object -- my-color and red-part are two different things). Instead, I'd have to use a NMTOKEN, which sucks because in most cases the attribute really is an IDREF, and I bet some cool editors are going to be able to show those inter-object relationships graphically to the user. So the question: is it OK to rely on invalidity? If I just let validity slide, I can provide a nicer interface for user-defined classes. What do I lose? Will a validating editor barf if it sees a just-well-formed element? Or will it just gracefully mark the element as being suspect (which I think the user of the language can handle, since it is a user-defined class). Whatchathink? Is there a way to get the slick syntax I want without giving up validity? -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Tue May 4 18:27:59 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:42 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990504092706.011b6210@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:54 AM 5/4/99 -0400, Joshua E. Smith wrote: >First, an easy one: If a language is defined in XML, you would say that >language is XML-______. Compliant? Derived? ish? ey? Compatible? XML-based? >I'm trying to choose a parser to use in my plugin. I see a choice between >expat, which is non-validating, and will increase my download size by ><100K, and SP which is validating, and will increase my download size by >about 1MB. Gak. James is working on a version of expat which compiles to substantially less, at the cost of some performance (i.e. it'll still be faster than anything else, I bet). I don't think SP is appropriate in the general case for XML apps. >I suppose that the validation should really be done a priori by the content >developer using a validating editor, so doing validation in my plugin is >really unnecessary. Is that true? Depends whether you trust the source. If you're writing both ends, you're probably OK (once you've got the system debugged). >Do commercial validating XML editors exist yet? Yes. From Arbortext (Adept) and (shipping any day now) SoftQuad (XMetaL). Frame+SGML is, as the name suggests, SGML not XML, but it'll work OK with XML. >I also suppose that my DTD is going to be pretty big by the time it's done, >and downloading it every time someone wants to use my plugin is kind of >stupid. Right? So that's another reason NOT to use a validating parser. Maybe the best reason. >But in my reading [XML Specification Guide: Graham, Quin, 1999], it >appears that non-validating parsers are allowed to ignore tons of stuff. >Is there ANY documentation of what expat actually *does*? (For that >matter, is there any documentation at all?) .h files :) >I assume it ignores external >entities, right? Wrong. Mind you, you have to do some extra work to deal with them. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 4 18:58:27 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <14127.4484.111378.578548@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> XML-Conformant. Cool, I'll add that to the FAQ you wanted me to write. ;) > > If you were using a programming language which is XML-ish, what XML > > features would you be annoyed to see left out (substitution of entities is > > an obvious one, which I've seen 3DML slammed for)? > >I find it very hard to imagine coding in a Turing-complete >programming language that is XML-ish -- markup languages are usually >quite clumsy for representing programming languages. > >What exactly do you mean, here? I really meant what I wrote. I'm assuming that most programmers will not actually write in the markup language, but rather will use editors which produce markup as their output. If you think about it, that's what's already happening with tools like Access or Delphi (users work in an editor, and for the most part, don't touch the code), and of course that's almost the only way anyone can deal with HTML anymore. So from that perspective, even if it was clumsy, it wouldn't really matter. The right question is: Can a program be represented as a tree? And the answer is always yes. For example, think about LISP. What is that if not a tree structured language? And XML is *GREAT* for representing trees. Now consider what happens to your favorite ALGOL-derived language (say, Java) when you compile it. It gets formatted by YACC into a parse tree. So represent the parse tree in XML to begin with, and get rid of the compiler front end. My language isn't anything like LISP or ALGOL, but I think this gets the point across. It's pretty easy to write programming languages which are XML-Conformant. My language doesn't use constructs like "if-then" or "for-next" so the user wouldn't be exposed to any nasty parse trees anyway; but even if it did, I don't know that stuff is all that clumsier than the non-tagged equivalent. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue May 4 19:23:23 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <14127.4484.111378.578548@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <372F2BDA.4DFF353A@jclark.com> David Megginson wrote: > > Of those features, which does expat not do (and therefore I'll have > > to do in my application, or extend expat to do -- three cheers for > > open source!)? > > Expat does not validate the document or expand external text entities > (including the external DTD subset, if any). Expat can expand external general text entities. It doesn't expand external parameter entities or the external DTD subset. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 4 19:33:31 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <372F2F48.B67BD7F5@locke.ccil.org> Joshua E. Smith wrote: > I suppose that the validation should really be done a priori by the content > developer using a validating editor, so doing validation in my plugin is > really unnecessary. Is that true? It depends on whether you are going to take action dependent on the XML you get, in which case validating provides some (but not all) of the sanity checks you will need. If you are just going to display the content (or do something else that can't damage the user or the client) then there is no real need. > I assume it ignores external > entities, right? That means I can't rely on putting boilerplate (think C > #include files) into an external parsed general entity if I go with expat, > right? Correct. Other non-validating parsers do read external entities, though. > If you were using a programming language which is XML-ish, what XML > features would you be annoyed to see left out (substitution of entities is > an obvious one, which I've seen 3DML slammed for)? Of those features, > which does expat not do (and therefore I'll have to do in my application, > or extend expat to do -- three cheers for open source!)? Expat does everything except read external entities and validate. Therefore, it doesn't read an external DTD, but it will process attribute defaults and such from the internal DTD. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 4 19:36:36 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: RDF Schema Question: adding new domains to a property? References: <372F0FC6.5C36296D@mitre.org> Message-ID: <372F2FEB.EB6A516@locke.ccil.org> Roger L. Costello wrote: > In general, what advantage is there in > forcing a property to be used specifically with a Class? It allows you to make it an error when someone defines the f-stop property of a person, or a Web page, or a book, or what have you. As a result, your f-stop-aware application (if front-ended with a schema-validity checker) need not cope with such semantically foolish f-stop properties. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue May 4 21:37:33 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <14127.4484.111378.578548@localhost.localdomain> <372F2BDA.4DFF353A@jclark.com> Message-ID: <372F3C83.8215FA1B@pacbell.net> James Clark wrote: > > David Megginson wrote: > > > > Of those features, which does expat not do (and therefore I'll have > > > to do in my application, or extend expat to do -- three cheers for > > > open source!)? > > > > Expat does not validate the document or expand external text entities > > (including the external DTD subset, if any). > > Expat can expand external general text entities. It doesn't expand > external parameter entities or the external DTD subset. Expat also doesn't report "ignorable" whitespace as such, from what I can tell (just recently started to look at it). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed May 5 00:30:13 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <372F55DA.75FA0ED1@prescod.net> "Joshua E. Smith" wrote: > > My language doesn't use constructs like "if-then" or "for-next" so the user > wouldn't be exposed to any nasty parse trees anyway; but even if it did, I > don't know that > > > stuff > A couple of questions: How much syntax does a variable refrence take? What does a function call look like? I'm trying to determine how much you are actually building on the XML parser and how much you intend to do yourself. > I'm assuming that most programmers will not > actually write in the markup language, but rather will use editors which > produce markup as their output. If you think about it, that's what's > already happening with tools like Access or Delphi (users work in an > editor, and for the most part, don't touch the code). I don't think that Access dialog building is programming. Real programmers, developing their own algorithms and interfaces will likely find any non-textual programming user interface to be an impediment. Delphi and Visual Basic have pretty decent text editors built in -- for a reason. I encourage you to design the user interface before focusing on the syntax of your markup language. If people like the user interface then the behind-the-scenes XML issues will be comparatively trivial. But if programmers hate the user interface then the XML part will become irrelevant. My experience is that XML editors are optimized for prose documents and are poor for most other stuff. They aren't ideal user interfaces for databases, programming languages, schemas etc. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The first three Noble Truths of Python: All that is not Python is suffering. The origin of suffering lies in the use of not-Python. The cessation of suffering can be achieved by not using not-Python. http://www.pauahtun.org/4nobletruthsofpython.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Wed May 5 03:30:13 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <002201be9696$20297040$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua E. Smith To: XML Developers' List Sent: 05/05/1999 12:54 Subject: re: Do I need to use a validating parser? > I really meant what I wrote. I'm assuming that most programmers will not > actually write in the markup language, but rather will use editors which > produce markup as their output. If you think about it, that's what's > already happening with tools like Access or Delphi (users work in an > editor, and for the most part, don't touch the code), and of course that's > almost the only way anyone can deal with HTML anymore. > What sort of editor do you imagine? If you are thinking of using an XML editor constrained by the DTD then I think that would be a very clumsy way of programming. > Now consider what happens to your favorite ALGOL-derived language (say, > Java) when you compile it. It gets formatted by YACC into a parse tree. > So represent the parse tree in XML to begin with, and get rid of the > compiler front end. I think you are getting confused with your compiler terminology. The only thing that I can see marking up your program using XML helping with is the lexing stage i.e. recognising the tokens. Using a DTD would help with some syntax validation but I'm sure there are rules that you would want to enforce that can't be expressed in the DTD. Also think about what sort of error messages you want to give back to the programmer and how well your proposed solution will handle that. > My language isn't anything like LISP or ALGOL, but I think this gets the > point across. It's pretty easy to write programming languages which are > XML-Conformant. You might be able to define a language easily but XML isn't going to help with the interpretation. At least using tools like yacc/lex, javac and antlr you can link the grammar to what you want to do with the language which aids maintenance. I agree with David, I don't think programming languages marked up using XML is a good way to go. I know people are doing it but it strikes me as a case of a man with a hammer thinking everything looks like a nail. Steve Oldmeadow Justice Systems Technologies xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Wed May 5 03:47:14 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Dreadfully tedious questions References: <3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990503212026.00697180@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504074815.0105149c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <003d01be9698$804edd00$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua E. Smith To: XML Developers' List Sent: 04/05/1999 7:48 Subject: re: Dreadfully tedious questions > xml4c++'s disclaimers ("this software sucks" is the general drift, sort of > like the mozilla disclaimers) are pretty scary. Also, how big is the > redistributable DLL? (I'm not going to sign their license unless there's a > chance it'll be small enough to be practical in a plug-in) > Currently the DLL is 597Kb. They give you the source so you could try to optimise the size yourself, my understanding is you are allowed to do this under the license but you must give what you produce to IBM which I think is fair enough considering what they are giving you. You have to understand this is early alpha code so you would be crazy to base a shipping product on it but I think it will be a good bet for the future. Steve Oldmeadow Justice Systems Technologies xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Wed May 5 03:59:02 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Should I use defaults in my DTD? Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504214903.00766068@tiac.net> Two more questions were raised as I memorized the XML spec (heh, heh). 1) Should I specify defaults in my DTD? My application knows what all the default values should be, so, technically, all the attributes on my elements could be #IMPLIED. However, it would seem likely to me that a good editor might tell the user what attributes exist for a given element they've inserted, and show them the default values from the DTD. The user could then easily decide what attributes need non-default values without looking in the object model documentation. However, I'm a little paranoid that some not-so-smart editors might read the DTD, get all the defaults, treat them as though they were specified by the user, and dump tons of default attributes into the saved file causing massive bloat. Would an editor really do that? (In their book, Ian & Liam seemed to imply that they thought one might.) 2) Should I use entities for URL attributes? Since the XML spec has gone to all that trouble to support external unparsed entities, it seems a little callous for me to call my attributes which are URLs ordinary CDATA. However, I have a really hard time seeing any value in making the user of my DTD go to the trouble of declaring the various JPGs and such as entities, when I know I'm just going to use the URL string anyway. Am I missing something? Is there a reason why: [Up in the DTD...] [Down in the document...] is preferable to: [Alone in the document...] The latter is so much simpler... -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Wed May 5 04:09:39 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <372F55DA.75FA0ED1@prescod.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504220617.00c24898@tiac.net> >A couple of questions: How much syntax does a variable refrence take? What >does a function call look like? I'm trying to determine how much you are >actually building on the XML parser and how much you intend to do >yourself. This application is more of what would be typically called a "scripting language" than a "programming language." I know that's a fuzzy distinction, but basically it means that you aren't going to be writing a quicksort in this language. It's a way to tie objects together to do interesting things. "Functions" and "Variables" don't really exist in this language (well, variables do, but it isn't obvious from the way you write programs that they do). It's a little hard to explain. Give me a few weeks to get the transition to XML worked out, then I'll give y'all a peek at it. >I don't think that Access dialog building is programming. I wasn't referring to dialog building, I was referring to the query builder which hides SQL from the access developer. I know very successful Access programmers who can't understand a lick of SQL, thanks to that very good query tool. That was my only point about Access. > Real >programmers, developing their own algorithms and interfaces will likely >find any non-textual programming user interface to be an impediment. >Delphi and Visual Basic have pretty decent text editors built in -- for a >reason. Fair enough. Those people aren't really my target audience. I'm going for web developers who understand HTML and want to dabble with something more expressive. >I encourage you to design the user interface before focusing on the syntax >of your markup language. If people like the user interface then the >behind-the-scenes XML issues will be comparatively trivial. But if >programmers hate the user interface then the XML part will become >irrelevant. > >My experience is that XML editors are optimized for prose documents and >are poor for most other stuff. They aren't ideal user interfaces for >databases, programming languages, schemas etc. Well, I'm hoping to avoid developing a user interface for developers at all, instead relying on the XML editors to do the job for me (at least for the first year or so). So far, that doesn't look like such a long shot. I downloaded a handful of the early editors (XML Spy, XML Notepad, a neat little demo of one written in Java who's name I forget, etc.), fed in a mock-up of one of my programs cast in XML, and was pretty impressed with what they could do. And I haven't written a DTD yet! (Some were *VERY* clever about figuring out the implied DTD from the elements.) -Joshua Smith -Joshua Smith jesmith@kaon.com http://www.kaon.com 978-355-6148 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Wed May 5 04:18:56 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <002201be9696$20297040$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990504221521.00c392a8@tiac.net> >I think you are getting confused with your compiler terminology. The only >thing that I can see marking up your program using XML helping with is the >lexing stage i.e. recognising the tokens. Using a DTD would help with some >syntax validation but I'm sure there are rules that you would want to >enforce that can't be expressed in the DTD. Also think about what sort of >error messages you want to give back to the programmer and how well your >proposed solution will handle that. This is all academic. When I can show you what this "language" looks like, you'll laugh that I was calling it "programming" in the first place. Nonetheless, always up for the academic discussion, you can express the entire syntax of the LISP programming language in less than a page of DTD, I bet. DTD's syntax is almost as expressive as that of XML itself. > >> My language isn't anything like LISP or ALGOL, but I think this gets the >> point across. It's pretty easy to write programming languages which are >> XML-Conformant. > >You might be able to define a language easily but XML isn't going to help >with the interpretation. I already have the interpretation done in my own software. I'm looking for XML to help with editing, not compiling/interpreting. >At least using tools like yacc/lex, javac and antlr you can link the grammar >to what you want to do with the language which aids maintenance. I agree >with David, I don't think programming languages marked up using XML is a >good way to go. I know people are doing it but it strikes me as a case of a >man with a hammer thinking everything looks like a nail. Well, that wouldn't seem to apply here since I didn't know squat about XML until three days ago when I bought a book. ;) It's more a case of I have a tack, and I see this really cool hammer, and I just need to figure out how to use the hammer on tacks when it was designed for nails. Or something like that.... ;) -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Wed May 5 05:21:38 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:43 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504221521.00c392a8@tiac.net> Message-ID: <012101be96a5$a9c85000$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua E. Smith To: Sent: 05/05/1999 10:15 Subject: Re: Do I need to use a validating parser? > Nonetheless, always up for the academic discussion, you can express the > entire syntax of the LISP programming language in less than a page of DTD, > I bet. DTD's syntax is almost as expressive as that of XML itself. > I don't know LISP but how would you express scoping rules such as a locally defined variable can only be accessed within the block it is defined such as in Java? I don't think this can be done using a DTD. It could however be expressed in some language marked up using XML. I don't want to seem like I'm trying to rain on your parade or anything, I was just wanting to save you some of the frustration I've been through. If DTDs were adequate there would be no push for another schema language. Once you do come up with your language I'm sure you will still need to write code to interpret it. All the current tools are going to help you with is to turn sentences in your language into an abstract syntax tree. Actually doing something with the tree is the hard part. I came to the conclusion that XML added very little and that you were better off just using the traditional tools to generate a parser for your language. One thing I toyed with was whether a yacc like tool would be useful for XML-ish languages, in other words it would help you generate parsers for languages that are marked up using XML. I'd be interested in your thoughts once you've come up with your solution. Steve Oldmeadow Justice Systems Technologies xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Wed May 5 05:28:41 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net>; from Joshua E. Smith on Tue, May 04, 1999 at 12:54:02PM -0400 References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> <14127.4484.111378.578548@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> Message-ID: <19990505132819.A3575@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Tue, May 04, 1999 at 12:54:02PM -0400, Joshua E. Smith wrote: > XML-Conformant. Cool, I'll add that to the FAQ you wanted me to write. ;) > > > > If you were using a programming language which is XML-ish, what XML > > > features would you be annoyed to see left out (substitution of entities is > > > an obvious one, which I've seen 3DML slammed for)? > > > >I find it very hard to imagine coding in a Turing-complete > >programming language that is XML-ish -- markup languages are usually > >quite clumsy for representing programming languages. > > > >What exactly do you mean, here? > > I really meant what I wrote. I'm assuming that most programmers will not > actually write in the markup language, but rather will use editors which > produce markup as their output. If you think about it, that's what's > already happening with tools like Access or Delphi (users work in an > editor, and for the most part, don't touch the code), and of course that's > almost the only way anyone can deal with HTML anymore. This is not true. It is still extremely common for HTML authors to code raw HTML in a text editor. In fact, if any degree of sophistication is required of your web site, a high level HTML editor will, more than likely, just get in the way. We gave up looking for a good HTML authoring environment because we almost always found that it was easier just to knock it up in a text editor. Moreover, any site that contains a large number of dynamic pages will not benefit at all from an fancy editor. If people do find themselves depending more and more on smart editors, this can hardly be used as an argument in _favour_ of HTML. It would be nonsensical to say we should use HTML _because_ there are ways to cope with its arcana! > So from that perspective, even if it was clumsy, it wouldn't really > matter. > > The right question is: Can a program be represented as a tree? And > the answer is always yes. For example, think about LISP. What is > that if not a tree structured language? And XML is *GREAT* for > representing trees. What about C/C++ with their goto and switch constructs? How would you represent this as a tree? void f(int i) { switch(i) { case 1: if (foo()) { while(baz()) { case 2: bar(i); continue; aa: bar2(); } case 3: bar2(); if (!foo()) { goto aa; } } } } Sure you can squeeze this into a tree, but it would be a mess. For instance, how would you introduce case 2 within the scope of the switch statement (as opposed to the scope of while(baz()) or global scope)? Likewise, how would you introduce label aa at function scope? XML simply cannot do this without implicit help from something like XQL. > Now consider what happens to your favorite ALGOL-derived language (say, > Java) when you compile it. It gets formatted by YACC into a parse tree. > So represent the parse tree in XML to begin with, and get rid of the > compiler front end. No it doesn't. I believe yacc is a LALR(1) parser, which means it never builds a parse tree. Rather, it invokes user-defined code snippets when productions are matched. (This is, of course, not to say you can't build a parse tree within your own code.) Furthermore, you are not removing the front end, but simply replacing it. And I am not at all convinced that this is a good thing. > My language isn't anything like LISP or ALGOL, but I think this gets the > point across. It's pretty easy to write programming languages which are > XML-Conformant. I think a more interesting project would be a meta-language, like Knuth's WEB. Under this scheme, a program would be represented as an XML document, and this would be used to generate the source code for a compiler. Hence the XML is not considered the final source, but is instead translated through a 'formatter' into the language of choice. With such an approach, the XML document would not represent the complete parse tree, but would instead store snippets of target language code to be emitted at appropriate points in the generation process. One thing to note is that the meta-language may actually constrain the compiler language constructs that can be output. For instance, an SGML representation of a switch statement might look like this: ... This scheme does not have the capacity to produce my original C example with its cases and label/goto. Whether this is a good or a bad thing is, I'm sure, a topic for lively debate. > My language doesn't use constructs like "if-then" or "for-next" so the user > wouldn't be exposed to any nasty parse trees anyway; but even if it did, I > don't know that > > > stuff > > > is all that clumsier than the non-tagged equivalent. It also wouldn't work: for i = 100/f(j) to int(sqrt(k) do stuff; could not become: stuff Instead, it would have to be:
Hence, even your simple example would be more like this: stuff Now, you could always reduce the size of these constructs a little by removing some of the redundant elements, such as , and , but that would actually be a net loss in clarity, IMHO. My primary objection to all of this, however, has nothing to do with complexity or feasibility (it most certainly could be done). The right question is not _can_ a program be represented as a tree, but _should_ it. C++ compilers, for instance, all have numerous bugs and many of them have quite serious bugs when it comes to combining templates, destructors and exceptions. But the problems they have have nothing to do with the difficulty of parsing and everything to do with the complexity of the C++ object model. This is not an attempt to defend C++ syntax, which is indeed something of a bug-bear to parse. But the point to note is that this is _not_ the area where compilers come to grief, and therefore it is not where efforts should be focused. So my question is, what do you gain? How will my life be improved if I have an XML conformant programming language? All I seem to have gained is an extra layer of complexity (the custom editor) that I am forced to deal with because trying to work directly with the underlying code is the stuff of my worst nightmares. I am not into climbing mountains just because they're there. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed May 5 09:26:13 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: The Syntax is API Fallacy (was Re: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model) References: <14125.43607.286104.891452@localhost.localdomain> <372DE3E1.55E5CD3D@fiduciary.com> <199905032057.PAA06649@bruno.techno.com> <14127.3202.902977.914788@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <372FF1EA.83E05C15@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Steven R. Newcomb writes: > > > The "syntax is API" fallacy is a well-intentioned simplifying > > assumption that, instead of simplifying, creates complexity and > > significantly reduces human productivity. > > Just so. When we're working in the database world, it should be quite > easy to explain the place of structured markup by referring to the > different layers ... You know, I was thinking of commenting on this same fallacy from the network protocol world. The "Interchange Model" fits into part of that ... protocols involve interactions though, and they're not just request/response models in the way APIs often are made out to be. > 1. Data Model - the physical organization of the information in > storage (such as a collection of SQL tables with primary keys, > etc.). > > 2. Object Model - the logical organization of the information from a > programmer's point of view (for example, a collection of Classes > that are derived from and/or contain other classes). > > 3. Interchange Model - the static, serial view of the information for > archiving or interchange with external systems (for example, an XML > document type). I'd either add one, or augment the "Interchange" model to capture the dynamic messaging patterns; I need to see system dynamics in my models! 4. Protocol Model - the messages interchanged, and the rules for concurrently interchanging them over time. There are lots of ways to slice a system ... for example, many folk like to couple the "data" (storage) and "object" (API) models closely in a "single level store" model, like an object database rather than a relational one. > Data system designers are used to thinking about the data and (more > recently) the object models, but are just starting to get their minds > around the interchange model, now that the Web is enabling (or > forcing) them to open up their systems and share more information with > outsiders. Network application designers go the other way around, and start from that "open systems" world ... but have only slowly begun to back into object models as a tool to facilitate the evolution of applications. One of the reasons I spent a bunch of time in the CORBA world was to try to encourage that to happen more quickly. It didn't happen to my own satisfaction ... and the reason is IMHO what one might call the "Protocol is API Fallacy". Folk focussed on the object aspects and treated those protocol issues more as afterthoughts than primary goals; so they ended up with a system that works better for APIs than for protocols. (And yes, there was lots of attention on integrating the storage and API models automatically too -- similar effect.) > The most important point in this structure is that the layers are > isolated: there is an n:n relationship between interchange models and > related object models, and an n:n relationship between object models > and related data models. And similarly, protocol models ... > > Einstein once said something to the effect that things should be as > > simple as possible, and no simpler. In the domain of information > > interchange, groves, inheritable information architectures, and > > property sets for inheritable information architectures make things > > as simple as possible, and no simpler. > > Fair enough, but there is no single data model or object model that is > appropriate for all systems, whether they happen to use XML or not: > Groves (or the DOM, for that matter, or the RDF data model) can serve > as an intermediate layer, but there needs to be a domain-specific > object model built on top that hides and abstracts the details. Developers looking at a large system will start to seem very much like those blind men feeling the different parts of an elephant. Each will need a domain-specific model (trunk, ear, tail, side, etc.) and the model that's most effective for their particular problem domain (data, object, interchange, protocol, etc) may not be very useful for the other problem domains. While the universal model ("elephant", or "application" depending on which side of the metaphor you're working with :-) isn't suited for detailed work. > XML should rarely be the central focus of a system's design, any more > than SQL or CORBA should be; it's just a (very good) enabling standard > for the interchange layer, just as SQL is an enabling standard for the > data layer and CORBA is an enabling standard for the object layer. Right. The "Protocol is API Fallacy" makes the same mistake that the "Syntax is API Fallacy" does: assumes that one tool can and should enable standards at more than one layer. To the extent that it does so, it often does so by sacrificing important functionality. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From raimondba at infosupport.com Wed May 5 09:47:43 1999 From: raimondba at infosupport.com (Raimond Bakkes) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: xml-dev unsubscribe Message-ID: <50428ACA709ED211A4BB0060087A2A6F509D7A@exchange.infosupport.nl> xml-dev unsubscribe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From raimondba at infosupport.com Wed May 5 10:04:26 1999 From: raimondba at infosupport.com (Raimond Bakkes) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev Message-ID: <50428ACA709ED211A4BB0060087A2A6F509D87@exchange.infosupport.nl> unsubscribe xml-dev xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From raju at wipinfo.soft.net Wed May 5 10:09:39 1999 From: raju at wipinfo.soft.net (raju) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: unsubscribe ! Message-ID: xml-dev unsubscribe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From menbo at super.ime.ncku.edu.tw Wed May 5 10:45:32 1999 From: menbo at super.ime.ncku.edu.tw (menbo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: The benefit of XML Message-ID: <37300859.14EDF90A@super.ime.ncku.edu.tw> Hi: I am a beginner to XML. I have known a lot about XML. But I can't find the great advantage of XML. Are there any good examples that illustrate the great difference between XML and HTML? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Wed May 5 12:28:19 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A186B@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Marcelo Cantos [SMTP:marcelo@mds.rmit.edu.au] > > > I really meant what I wrote. I'm assuming that most programmers will > not > > actually write in the markup language, but rather will use editors which > > produce markup as their output. If you think about it, that's what's > > already happening with tools like Access or Delphi (users work in an > > editor, and for the most part, don't touch the code), and of course > that's > > almost the only way anyone can deal with HTML anymore. > > This is not true. It is still extremely common for HTML authors to > code raw HTML in a text editor. In fact, if any degree of > sophistication is required of your web site, a high level HTML editor > will, more than likely, just get in the way. > > We gave up looking for a good HTML authoring environment because we > almost always found that it was easier just to knock it up in a text > editor. Moreover, any site that contains a large number of dynamic > pages will not benefit at all from an fancy editor. > > One word: Homesite. Makes a damn good syntax highlighting XML editor too. And with IE5 installed it's a quick click on the Browse button and you see your XML+CSS in all it's glory. For Joshua's information, he may be (or may not be) interested in Mozilla.org's XUL - it's an XML application building language that uses Javascript as it's programming language. Netscape 5's gui will be completely built using XUL - it's a very cool technology. However it doesn't go as far as to lower the scripting language to being XML itself - I think that's crazy, but each to his own. Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wegrzyn at garbagedump.com Wed May 5 12:49:25 1999 From: wegrzyn at garbagedump.com (C Wegrzyn) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: The Syntax is API Fallacy (was Re: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model) In-Reply-To: <372FF1EA.83E05C15@pacbell.net> Message-ID: A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: smime.p7m Type: application/x-pkcs7-mime Size: 9121 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990505/4738d4a4/smime.bin From costello at mitre.org Wed May 5 13:40:38 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: DTD for RDF? How is that possible? Message-ID: <37302E67.BCBED196@mitre.org> I recall seeing a posting a few months back where someone posted a DTD for RDF. Upon reflection I find this puzzling. How could you possibly create a DTD for RDF? By definition, the child elements in rdf:Description are arbitrary: It is my understanding that RDF documents can only be "well-formed". There is no such thing as a "valid" RDF document. Correct? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Wed May 5 14:51:24 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> {I am *very* pleased with the intellectual quality of discussions on this group!} To summarize this thread: Everyone thinks I'm nuts. That's fine. I'm used to that. I usually take that as a sign I'm going in the right direction. ;) Yes, XML doesn't do me any good helping me parse or interpret the programs the user has written. Many of you don't seem to get this: I *already* have a working scripting language written (your classic "little language"). That means I can already get from declarations to moving the program counter around. So I don't *need* XML to help me parse (except, I don't have anything like &entity substitution, so that will be a nice benefit I get for free on the processing end). I know that folks like you *and me* write all our HTML, XML, Perl, Java, etc. in Emacs. On Linux. However, you cannot release a product to Jane Q. Public (even for free) which uses a "little language" and tell her she needs to write her programs in Notepad. She needs a tool to make organizing the constructs of the language easy. (They call this "Visual Programming" and it's actually pretty cool when it's done right -- which is almost never, because people keep trying to put visual wrappers around glorified machine languages like Java.) However, I'm sure you can relate, the *last* thing I want to do is write a custom editor. I can't stand to use them, much less write one. XML *can* solve this problem for me. I'll be able to tell Jane to just fire up Homesite, or Office 2000, or whatever, and it'll know how to edit programs in my language. This is a REALLY BIG step forward, folks. You know how you can get a funky set of .el files which makes emacs know how to edit every language you work in? Well imagine folks in the rest of the world being able to fiddle with their web pages and all the stuff which integrates into their web pages (maybe including database front-ends, too) in a common environment. XML could make that possible. You and I will never use it, but trust me, this could be huge! Oh, and some of you have a pretty jaded view of programming languages. Do yourself a favor and go learn LISP and FORTH. You'll see that very useful programming languages don't have to be an unholy mess like C, Java, Perl, and VB. Check the back issues of Dr. Dobbs for a good article on FICL, for example. Yes, YACC is a LALR parser, but what you *almost always* do in the production rules is stuff $1, $2, and $3 into a parse tree which you munch on the back end. Most multi-CPU targeting compilers use a parse _tree_ as the internal representation of the program (the original MIPS compiler actually saved it out to disk). Writing an ALGOL derivative language in XML basically gets rid of the need for a language specific parser, and makes the programmer responsible for parsing the language herself. While that would be a nightmare in C (as one of you showed quite clearly), it is no big deal in LISP, FORTH, and hundreds of other well designed languages. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SCampana at bluestone.com Wed May 5 15:00:54 1999 From: SCampana at bluestone.com (Campana, Sal) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: ibm xmlj1.1.16 XML Validation Message-ID: <512EBEF97F02D311B89900A0C9D17760129DC0@thor.operations.bluestone.com> Has anyone successfully validated an XML document with an external DTD using IBM's xmlj1.1.16 parser? I have been unable to get this to work....It checks that the document is well-formed but it does not seem to validate against the DTD... Thanks, Sal xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed May 5 15:12:54 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: The Syntax is API Fallacy Message-ID: <027801be96f7$d7c9d5d0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> David Brownell wrote: >David Megginson wrote: >> >> Steven R. Newcomb writes: >> >> > The "syntax is API" fallacy is a well-intentioned simplifying >> > assumption that, instead of simplifying, creates complexity and >> > significantly reduces human productivity. >> >> Just so. When we're working in the database world, it should be quite >> easy to explain the place of structured markup by referring to the >> different layers ... > >You know, I was thinking of commenting on this same fallacy from the >network protocol world. The "Interchange Model" fits into part of >that ... protocols involve interactions though, and they're not just >request/response models in the way APIs often are made out to be. > First, let me preface this by commenting that I am a proponent of layering, and there is much useful insight gained by layer analysis in system design. That being said, the RPC model, now the distributed object model defines a specific mapping between a syntax layer above the network layer (e.g. DCE-RPC/NDR over TCP/IP) which defines a direct correlation between the "API" generated by an IDL compiler and network PDUs. So the 7 layer OSI model can be applied to systems design. Where does XML fit into this equation? XML-RPC replaces NDR PDU representation with XML PDU representation. E.g. 1) transport = TCP/IP 2) protocol = HTTP (POST), 3) PDU is a MIME message of content-type: text/xml or application/xml and whose contents are an XML document Via this mapping, one can *compile* IDL e.g. CORBA or DCOM into an HTTP/XML binding. HTTP/XML replaces the IIOP or DCE-RPC. This is what is known as XML-RPC. This formalism is useful for distributed object calls where the objects maintain their own distributed identity (e.g. a URI) and communicate via network PDUs (so the API call *does* map onto a request-response at the HTTP procotol level). Another method is to send 'copies' of objects over the network. Is is called 'marshal by value' (MBV). XMOP (see http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net/xmop.htm) describes a method to MBV Java and COM objects via XML. In general when MBV is employed, the object has a 'save' and 'load' method that serializes the object to a stream. The contents of this stream can just as easily be an arbitrary XML document. In this case, the XML document IS EXACTLY the network wire level representation of the object. Regarding the DOM: A DOM object is a special case object whose serialized format is an arbitrary XML document. Other objects (e.g. user object) may choose to serialize their state into an XML stream directly, or via code reuse, employ a parser object to assist with this serialization. SAX and DOM objects are two types of parsers. Hence one type of object serialization implementation may choose: load(DOMDocument x) and save(DOMDocument y) as a method to implement persistence. An advantage of this approach is that it allows the same implementation to be used for both network marshalling as well as storage into a database which provides a DOM wrapper. If databases arrive which support the SAX interface, this too would provide the same benefit of code reuse to the object implementor. API, Syntax Protocol etc describe different layers in a system. When well known/standard interfaces are developed to link different layers in a system, system developers can concentrate on the important tasks of system design and object analysis and allow the plumbing to do its job. The Grove formalism is one mechanism of converting between serialization formats (e.g. XML) and an object API (e.g. the DOM). IDL is another mechanism to convert between object APIs (e.g. interfaces) and network protocols (e.g. HTTP/XML, DCE-RPC and/or IIOP). What I am still wrestling with is where RDF sits in this picture e.g. does it describe objects better than IDL? Does it describe systems better than UML? (perhaps!!)Does it describe graphs better than XML+XSL/XPointer+XLink? In the continuum between object and document, what the heck is a 'resource' anyways? What I am waiting for is a mechanism to 'compile' or bind RDF into a set of Java, COM and/or CORBA interfaces (clearly this ought be possible). In the distributed object world, the interface (which here is called the 'API') is primary and the network plumbing and serialization format is a detail to be taken care of by the system. In the document world, the serialization is primary and the API is merely a mechanism to allow access to the data. Clearly both views are important and ought to be equally incorporated into the 'new world view'. I call this 'Web centric distributed computing' for lack of a better catch phrase. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Wed May 5 15:25:39 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3730456A.AC9349D6@w3.org> "Joshua E. Smith" wrote: > > More questions from the new guy... > > First, an easy one: If a language is defined in XML, you would say that > language is XML-______. Compliant? Derived? ish? ey? Compatible? I would say "an application of XML" or "written in XML" depending on who I was talking to. For the language definition, if it was defined using DTD syntax, I might say it was valid (if it was). For a document instance, if it was well formed, then you could say it was a "well-formed XML document"; otherwise, you would say it was "stuff". If an instance was in addition valid, then you could say that too. > I'm trying to choose a parser to use in my plugin. I see a choice between > expat, which is non-validating, and will increase my download size by > <100K, and SP which is validating, and will increase my download size by > about 1MB. Gak. Great if there was a way to ask the browser if you could use *it's* XML parser that it already has, huh? > Do commercial validating XML editors exist yet? Yes. > I also suppose that my DTD is going to be pretty big by the time it's done, > and downloading it every time someone wants to use my plugin is kind of > stupid. Right? So that's another reason NOT to use a validating parser. Using a DTD is a separate thing from validation. And, assuming you use the browser cache, you only need to get it once. > But in my reading [XML Specification Guide: Graham, Quin, 1999], it > appears that non-validating parsers are allowed to ignore tons of stuff. Yes. Which means it has to occur explicitly in each document that you create, rather than once in the DTD, thus giving you a per-download filesize hit on your content. > Is there ANY documentation of what expat actually *does*? (For that > matter, is there any documentation at all?) I assume it ignores external > entities, right? That means I can't rely on putting boilerplate (think C > #include files) into an external parsed general entity if I go with expat, > right? That is my understanding. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed May 5 15:42:51 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:44 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages Message-ID: <02d101be96fc$049a2b10$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Have you looked at XSL (not that it is a full featured programming language however it is getting closer and closer). Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net > >Everyone thinks I'm nuts. That's fine. I'm used to that. I usually take >that as a sign I'm going in the right direction. ;) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Wed May 5 19:15:14 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <3730A636.D44392D0@metalab.unc.edu> IE5 has some sort of stupid integration with my desktop (NT) such that when I try toopen a file off my local hard drive it opens in TextPad instead. The reason TextPad is picked is because that's what I've registered to handle XML files. But I'd still like to be able to use IE to open it directly. Does anyone know how to fix this so that IE does not hand off XML files to a helper app? It will open the XML file directly if (and only if) I follow a link to a file on the hard drive rather than simply opening it on my hard drive. Any suggestions? +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Wed May 5 19:23:11 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: Dreadfully tedious questions Message-ID: <87256768.005F5745.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> > >>Expat's been well tested. SP has been even better tested, and unlike >>Expat, it supports DTD validation; however, SP has a basically >>undocumented and extremely complicated interface, and it's really a >>full SGML parser. >> >>IBM has a brand-new parser, xml4c++ (I think), at alphaworks.ibm.com. >>This hasn't had the field testing that Expat and SP have had, but it >>looks promising. > >xml4c++'s disclaimers ("this software sucks" is the general drift, sort of >like the mozilla disclaimers) are pretty scary. Also, how big is the >redistributable DLL? (I'm not going to sign their license unless there's a >chance it'll be small enough to be practical in a plug-in) > Just to protected my honor here... The intent of any disclaimers is not to say that it sucks by any means. This is the very first public release, so you can obviously expect it to be a little less stable and mature than something that's been out for years. But its certainly not Suckware at all. Its actually quite good, since it draws on three previous parser efforts, and it will definitely get better. As to the DLL size, that is partly temporary. We depend upon the ICU (IBM internationalization classes) for our transcoding services. They have not been ready to release that as a separate product so far so we physically embedded it into our stuff. However, very soon they will do so and we will split that out. They will also be better layering their stuff so that we only have to get the lowest level parts of it, which are all we need. This will reduce our footprint as well. And, once the ICU is split out, it will be exposed to the client code so that they can actually do many useful things with this Unicode text that we are spitting at them. Right now, we don't expose that ICU interface so you have to provide the tools to do useful stuff with the resulting XML text in its Unicode format. So, on both fronts it will be improving. So judge it on its potential (and its very flexible and extensible architecture gives it a lot of potential) for what it will be able to do soon. Give us a couple of Alphaworks releases and we will get it much cleaner and more conformant. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed May 5 19:32:38 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy References: <027801be96f7$d7c9d5d0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <37308020.CDC23BB8@pacbell.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > First, let me preface this by commenting that I am a proponent of > layering, and there is much useful insight gained by layer analysis in > system design. That being said, the RPC model, now the distributed object > model defines a specific mapping between a syntax layer above the network > layer (e.g. DCE-RPC/NDR over TCP/IP) which defines a direct correlation > between the "API" generated by an IDL compiler and network PDUs. So the 7 > layer OSI model can be applied to systems design. And if done in that way, you run right into the "Protocol is API" fallacy. I've been doing distributed systems since the mid 1980s and have come to understand that there exist major limitations in the RPC model. > Via this mapping, one can *compile* IDL e.g. CORBA or DCOM into an > HTTP/XML binding. HTTP/XML replaces the IIOP or DCE-RPC. This is what is > known as XML-RPC. The fact that one "can" do it doesn't make it a good idea for all, or even very many, cases. The fallacy is that one focusses on the API rather than the protocol; and APIs have an unfortunate pattern of not addressing protocol problems. Moreover, there's major resistance to getting them to be addressed; the problems strike at the heart of RPC, which is to enable an API mapping by removing message patterns and system structures that are essential for working in real systems. - To design a protocol, design a protocol. - To design an API, design an API. - Understand the severe limitations of mapping APIs to protocols. You need both protocols and APIs. But there is no one-to-one mapping that works in all cases. Good protocols support many APIs, and vice versa. RPC systems remove that flexibility; they force API changes when protocols change, and vice versa. > API, Syntax Protocol etc describe different layers in a system. When > well known/standard interfaces are developed to link different layers in a > system, system developers can concentrate on the important tasks of system > design and object analysis and allow the plumbing to do its job. There's a signifcant issue with the quality of the linking. RPC systems hide significant parts of the network, which need to be surfaced. They don't expose faults well, or recovery mechanisms; they complicate callback style messaging patterns unduly; they bury encoding issues, and impose specific protocol-to-API mappings even in environments where they're not at all appropriate. Consider that no RPC system in the world (CORBA, ONC, DCE, etc) has had the reach of some rather basic non-RPC systems like E-Mail (SMTP, POP, IMAP) or the web (HTTP, HTML, XML, etc). For folk who have spent a lot of time working on architectural issues, this is telling: it says that there's quite likely a problem with the RPC approach. I think that is fundamental to the approach at this point; the very thing that makes RPCs seem easy to understand is the thing that makes it a weak paradigm in the big picture. It's just not a rich enough model. > In the distributed object world, the interface (which here is called > the 'API') is primary and the network plumbing and serialization format is a > detail to be taken care of by the system. Which is the fallacy: it doesn't work as well as defining protocols first. Because that plumbing isn't a mere detail, it's extremely significant to the overall evolution of the system and it needs to be designed with that in mind. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From LippmannJ at mmanet.com Wed May 5 20:01:41 1999 From: LippmannJ at mmanet.com (Lippmann, Jens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <1CEC4A85AB34D21181C900A0C9CFE1279A789A@NY_EXCH_01> Open Explorer. Go to View|Folder Options. Go to the File Types Tab look XML document in the Registered file types box, click edit and edit the "open" command to ""D:\PROGRA~1\Plus!\MICROS~1\iexplore.exe" -nohome " or wherever iexplorer.exe resides on your machine. If that is already your Open command path, check whether you have "Open" as a default command and not "Edit". Good luck! Jens -----Original Message----- From: Elliotte Rusty Harold [mailto:elharo@metalab.unc.edu] Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 1999 4:13 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: IE5 brain damage IE5 has some sort of stupid integration with my desktop (NT) such that when I try toopen a file off my local hard drive it opens in TextPad instead. The reason TextPad is picked is because that's what I've registered to handle XML files. But I'd still like to be able to use IE to open it directly. Does anyone know how to fix this so that IE does not hand off XML files to a helper app? It will open the XML file directly if (and only if) I follow a link to a file on the hard drive rather than simply opening it on my hard drive. Any suggestions? +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Wed May 5 21:13:05 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy Message-ID: <035701be972a$1812abd0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> David Brownwell wrote: > >There's a signifcant issue with the quality of the linking. RPC systems >hide significant parts of the network, which need to be surfaced. They >don't expose faults well, or recovery mechanisms; they complicate callback >style messaging patterns unduly; they bury encoding issues, and impose >specific protocol-to-API mappings even in environments where they're not >at all appropriate. > This isn't the problem with RPC systems at all (including CORBA, Java RMI, DCOM, DCE-RPC etc), and certainly the current defacto web 'protocol' namely a form and www-form-encoding or a CGI query string is hardly a robust way for programs to communicate. Rather, the ubiquity of firewalls allows HTTP and SMTP traffic to flow where no RPC can go. You are missing the picture. Designing your own network protocol for each new application is as useful as writing your own XML parser for each new application. We have learned something from layering, interfaces and code reuse (despite your protests). Why should a developer need understand network issues etc when all they wish to do is send a message across the network. This is what libraries are for. All modern languages are object oriented (e.g. Java, Python, C++ etc.). One of the hallmarks of object orientation is enabling code reuse. Why reinvent a protocol when a library implements it? >Consider that no RPC system in the world (CORBA, ONC, DCE, etc) has had >the reach of some rather basic non-RPC systems like E-Mail (SMTP, POP, >IMAP) or the web (HTTP, HTML, XML, etc). For folk who have spent a lot >of time working on architectural issues, this is telling: it says that >there's quite likely a problem with the RPC approach. > That's exactly my point, there is no reason not to layer IDL on top of perfectly good protocols such as HTTP and SMTP. There is no reason not to use perfectly good standards such as MIME. Why reinvent the wheel when you can *interface* to the wheel. Change the body of the car and reuse the wheel. This is what layering is all about. Why do you compare RPC to XML? They are different species. This confuses the issue. XML and HTML are document standards, CORBA is a distributed object standard. The fact that SMTP can punch through firewalls like no CORBA is important (and one reason why the reach is so extended). I'm suggesting that HTTP and SMTP are to be used as the protocol. Are you suggesting otherwise? I'm suggesting that the abstraction afforded by IDL and RPC can be layered on top of HTTP and SMTP via XML? Do you have a problem with this? Web native distributed computing means using XML and HTTP and SMTP. This doesn't replace the need to specify interfaces (for example the DOM is delivered as an IDL specification). The point here is whether distributed objects are good or bad (this becomes nothing more than your personal opinion ... others would differ) rather how can object technology, including distributed objects and object modelling be integrated with internet standards such as XML,RDF,HTTP and SMTP. This is my suggestion (feel free to propose another): Distributed systems can communicate via HTTP and SMTP using XML documents as the contents of their MIME messages and function in the same fashion as distributed systems which employ IIOP or DCE-RPC. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wunder at infoseek.com Wed May 5 23:12:32 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy In-Reply-To: <035701be972a$1812abd0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990505135813.00b8cdb0@corp> At 02:58 PM 5/5/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: > > This is my suggestion (feel free to propose another): Distributed >systems can communicate via HTTP and SMTP using XML documents as the >contents of their MIME messages and function in the same fashion as >distributed systems which employ IIOP or DCE-RPC. Some important parts of the GO Network portal backend use this approach. It has pluses and minuses, but it is clearly good enough for 24/7 online systems. If anyone wants to dig into models for concurrency, I recommend this paper: Hugh C. Lauer, Roger M. Needham: On the Duality of Operating System Structures. Operating Systems Review 13(2): 3-19 (1979) It arose out of hallway arguments over message-passing versus monitor programming styles. They prove the two equivalent, then go on to describe the flavor of each style. Very useful perspective. wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ti64877 at imcnam.sbi.com Wed May 5 23:41:58 1999 From: ti64877 at imcnam.sbi.com (Ingargiola, Tito) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy Message-ID: <3994C79D0211D211A99F00805FE6DEE249C026@exchny15.corp.smb.com> Hi, [JonathonBorden states:] > This isn't the problem with RPC systems at all (including CORBA, Java > RMI, DCOM, DCE-RPC etc), and certainly the current defacto web 'protocol' > namely a form and www-form-encoding or a CGI query string is hardly a > robust > way for programs to communicate. Rather, the ubiquity of firewalls allows > HTTP and SMTP traffic to flow where no RPC can go. > This seems a hard argument to make given that popular corba implementations which support firewalls via tunneling techniques have been around for a number of years, yet have not had much impact on corba's (lack of) popularity. The reason that http & friends have had the impact corba had hoped for has to do primarily with the fact that they're simple ("web-weasels" don't typically write CORBA servers); other reasons include ubiquity, performance and tools (emacs, vi, or notepad all work pretty well along with one of the many free, stable httpds available to anyone). [JonathonBorden states:] > That's exactly my point, there is no reason not to layer IDL on top of > perfectly good protocols such as HTTP and SMTP. There is no reason not to > use perfectly good standards such as MIME. > Certainly this can be done, but one has to wonder why one wants to do it. I've played extensively with manipulating DOM structures remotely via CORBA (see http://www.objdev.org/index.html for some details) and the bottom line is that the granularity of the DOM is inappropriate for significant use in a distributed system. You're better off in nearly all cases simply firing a stream of XML at whoever needs it. I think that one could happily integrate all sorts of wonderful XML-derived benefits into a CORBA environment by having both stream and remote invocation interfaces (I'm working on such a system now). However, "layering" CORBA on top of XML will prove to yield little of value except a reminder of how precious performance really is ;-> Regards, Tito. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu May 6 01:14:30 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy Message-ID: <03bd01be974b$e2cfc080$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Ingargiola, Tito wrote: >[JonathonBorden states:] >> That's exactly my point, there is no reason not to layer IDL on top of >> perfectly good protocols such as HTTP and SMTP. There is no reason not to >> use perfectly good standards such as MIME. >> >Certainly this can be done, but one has to wonder why one wants to do it. >I've played extensively with manipulating DOM structures remotely via CORBA >(see http://www.objdev.org/index.html for some details) and the bottom line >is that the granularity of the DOM is inappropriate for significant use in a >distributed system. You're better off in nearly all cases simply firing a >stream of XML at whoever needs it. You are suggesting using the DOM to model your distributed objects. This is a bad idea. You are correct in your conclusion that this is a bad use of granularity, though I've never tested this out myself because it is evident by a quick analysis of round trips. What I had suggested was to use XML to marshal objects by value (MBV) which specifically gets around the network roundtrip killer. Furthermore I am suggesting that by enabling use of web native protocols under currently available distributed object systems we can move toward a better integration of distributed objects and the web. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Thu May 6 03:44:52 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> Message-ID: <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Joshua E. Smith To: XML Developers' List Sent: 05/05/1999 8:47 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages > However, you cannot release a product to Jane Q. Public (even for free) > which uses a "little language" and tell her she needs to write her programs > in Notepad. She needs a tool to make organizing the constructs of the > language easy. (They call this "Visual Programming" and it's actually > pretty cool when it's done right -- which is almost never, because people > keep trying to put visual wrappers around glorified machine languages like > Java.) One thing you missed in your summary was whether DTDs can support what you want to do. I think you have a wonderful vision and I am sure it is shared by many people here. I just don't think a DTD is going to do what you want. Hopefully with the new schema language we can start developing tools like the one you envisage. As far as "Visual Programming" environments go (especially for "non programmers") I think it is invaluable to have the ability to step through the code and see what is happening which implies an IDE rather than a simple editor. > Oh, and some of you have a pretty jaded view of programming > languages. Do yourself a favor and go learn LISP and FORTH. You'll see > that very useful programming languages don't have to be an unholy mess like > C, Java, Perl, and VB. Check the back issues of Dr. Dobbs for a good > article on FICL, for example. To quote the Tao Te Ching "He who understands does not preach, he who preaches does not understand" ;) Seriously though, I would love to learn LISP and FORTH unfortunately time is limited and there isn't much demand where I am for LISP and FORTH programmers. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wperry at fiduciary.com Thu May 6 07:21:44 1999 From: wperry at fiduciary.com (W. E. Perry) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy References: <03bd01be974b$e2cfc080$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <373126DC.B957ACD3@fiduciary.com> Jonathan Borden wrote: > Furthermore I am suggesting that by enabling use of web native protocols > under currently available distributed object systems we can move toward a > better integration of distributed objects and the web. This is an admirable goal, and one which I believed in and pursued for some time. However, 'currently available distributed object systems' were designed for closed enterprise networks and have proved (are proving?) to be utterly unsuitable for the web. The web remains overwhelmingly text-based (HTML mostly, of course). Objects are fundamentally inimical to the text-based assumptions underlying most of what is done on the web. The history of non-text additions, from .jpeg and .gif, to real audio, shockwave and flash has been in essentially the opposite direction from interoperable objects or distributed components. Simply put, the object-and-interface paradigm has not been well received in an open market. I think that this was Dave Brownell's point, from a somewhat different perspective, earlier in this thread: > Consider that no RPC system in the world (CORBA, ONC, DCE, etc) has had > the reach of some rather basic non-RPC systems like E-Mail (SMTP, POP, > IMAP) or the web (HTTP, HTML, XML, etc). For folk who have spent a lot > of time working on architectural issues, this is telling: it says that > there's quite likely a problem with the RPC approach. > It may be a reasonable argument that there are some (few) cases where a truly authoritative object should be invoked via an RPC mechanism--perhaps to use the inventor's own implementation of a process or an algorithm. In most real-world cases I am familiar with, however, the marshalling and de-marshalling are simply too expensive and potentially error-prone to be competitive alternatives to performing locally the processing for which the local node is responsible. In the best examples we have of truly distributed systems in production today, each local node may have no idea of how, by whom, for what, or in what context the output of its local processing is used by any other node (or for that matter what processes its input comes from--an essential consideration if its own processes change in a way which affects how input must be marshalled to them). Efficient designs concentrates on the performance which can be achieved in those local processes and will not burden the local node with knowing too much about other nodes in the system, especially since that knowledge can go out of date quickly and in ways which may not be easily discoverable. The promise of XML for solving these problems stems in part from its differences from objects: primarily, where objects are opaque and require prior knowledge of their interfaces, documents display openly not only the data they might convey but also the structure described by their markup. I would agree with Tito Ingargiola: > You're better off in nearly all cases simply firing a stream of XML at whoever needs it. I think that > one could happily integrate all sorts of wonderful XML-derived benefits into a CORBA environment > by having both stream and remote invocation interfaces > though my own preference (and the best solution in the overwhelming majority of the situations I see) is for the stream of XML over the remote invocation interface. Walter Perry xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Thu May 6 11:01:38 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: XML-Data and database mapping Message-ID: I've been wrestling with issues for encoding databases (and report definitions) into a single XML file and restoring them, for some time. I would appreciate some feedback on the following. I would be ecstatic to be told I'm blind, stupid, lazy and have missed some very obvious postings covering all these issues :-) ----- EMBEDDED SCHEMA My current compromise is to have other tags where the schema describes all following tags but obviously not the root tag. Note: I'm using the MS convention of rather than strict XML-Data name . ----- MAPPING FIELD TYPES AND TABLES The most serious problem I see with mapping database schemae using XML-Data or the other published suggestions is the lack of scoping. As I understand the (suggested) specifications and the current MS versions, fields within database tables will be handled by definitions and referred to from within a table's by tags. This means that fields within tables are globally scoped in their definition, unlike the usual DB practice that a field is defined within the context of a database table (relation). At a trivial level, "Name" might be a compatible data type such as fixed-length string, but a different length, within and . I would vastly prefer to use an agreed standard for our schema export/import but this restriction makes it impossible. Once you accept that field definitions can be scoped within tables, it's a much nicer syntax to define field data types within the tag as shown below. This approach can co-exist with defining separately as separate definitions would be seen as instead of ----- EXAMPLE OUTPUT FWIW the following is the current output of our report writer, which I am in the process of enhancing so it can read such a report document back in again. Note: 1) we encode layout separately from style 2) the style strings are mainly CSS compliant except if we have things like graphs where we use CSS-like syntax to describe graph attributes 3) our layout has a CSS object model where possible and includes an assumption of nested styles - an element within the layout inherits styles from its containing elements.
Page 1 Set your school name in 'Preferences' Outcomes achieved by this student
Josef ABRAMSON
KIDMAP 99 for Macintosh Printed by KIDMAP Manager on 5/5/1999
Number of outcomes listed: 24
ARDA11 Draws upon play 16th Mar 1999 MANAGER ARDA21 Use experience 16th Mar 1999 MANAGER ARDA31 Explore ideas 16th Mar 1999 MANAGER ARDA41 Experiment - ideas 16th Mar 1999 MANAGER Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Thu May 6 12:34:38 1999 From: paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (adam moore) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:45 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 May 1999, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > > in Notepad. She needs a tool to make organizing the constructs of the > > language easy. > > One thing you missed in your summary was whether DTDs can support what you > want to do. Surely this is exactly what DTD's can do - 'organize the constructs of a language' - and with a DTD and something like Xeena from IBM I think it's possible now? (Xeena is an editor that uses a DTD to constrain the authors into only writing valid syntax: http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xeena). > As far as "Visual Programming" environments go (especially for "non > programmers") I think it is invaluable to have the ability to step through > the code and see what is happening which implies an IDE rather than a simple > editor. > I agree - but to have a tool which ONLY LETS YOU WRITE VALID CODE IN THE FIRST PLACE will surely be a big leap up from trying to debug code you wrote in a standard editor and then try and find the typo's/missing separators/line-breaks/etc.? Just my tuppence h'penny worth *8-) Adam Moore Virtual School of Molecular Sciences School of Pharmaceutical Science, University of Nottingham http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms/ Personal Page:http://www.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk/~paxamr/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Thu May 6 15:56:42 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage In-Reply-To: <85256768.006149B1.00@mail.copeland.com> Message-ID: >If I understand you correctly it sounds like you need to change the program >associated with your.xml files. Everyone has suggested changing the associations, buct that's not the issue. I am aware of how to do that. The problem is that despite the association with Textpad I should still be able to open an XML file in IE and I can't. Think of it this way. By going to File->Open in Word, you can open a WordPerfect document in Word even if WordPerfect is installed on the system and registered to handle Wordperfect files. Now imagine that when you try to open a WordPerfect file in Word, it instead launches WordPerfect and opens the file in WordPerfect. That's more or less what's happening when I try to read an XML file in IE5. The associations should affect what program is launched when I double-click a file of a particular type. It should not affect what happens when I specifically ask a particular program to open a particular file. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Thu May 6 16:21:10 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE5D@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > The associations should affect what > program is launched when I double-click a file of a > particular type. It should not affect what happens when I specifically ask a > particular program to open a particular file. > This is Microsoft trying to persuade us that the browser is part of the operating system, not just an application. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Thu May 6 16:27:14 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990506102314.01058930@tiac.net> >As far as "Visual Programming" environments go (especially for "non >programmers") I think it is invaluable to have the ability to step through >the code and see what is happening which implies an IDE rather than a simple >editor. That's a really good point, and it's probably why I won't be able to get away without writing an IDE forever. However, there are some pretty good examples of languages for which an integerated editor/debugger came long after acceptance (thinking javascript here). By then, though, there will be some great XML editor in open source written in Java, and I can extend someone else's editor, rather than writing my own! ;) Or maybe we can all agree on some APIs (God, let it not be ActiveX!) which editors should provide, so we can tell them (from a running program) to highlight a given line and character position, to add an item (like "Stop Here") to their menu bar, etc. I could see that being useful even when you use XML for more traditional document applications (imagine being able to single-step through the interpretation of the document by your formatter and being able to show the user what all the &entities are expanding into). -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From james at xmltree.com Thu May 6 16:49:20 1999 From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: Fw: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <020d01be97cf$87d65e30$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Elliotte One solution would be to add some applications to your SendTo directory. In mine I have 3? Floppy (A), ColdFusion Studio 4.0, Desktop. Internet Explorer, Mail Recipient, Notepad. You can add applications by selecting properties on the taskbar, selecting the Start Menu Programs tab, clicking on Advanced, and adding Windows shortcuts to the folder called SendTo (just above StartMenu). Once you have done this, you can manipulate an XML file by right-clicking on it and selecting Send To from the popup menu. You can then select the application you want to open the XML file with. Hope this helps, Best regards, James Carlyle james@xmltree.com Wavefront Limited 70 Acton Street London WC1X 9NB UK (44) 171 813 0665 www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ti64877 at imcnam.sbi.com Thu May 6 17:23:57 1999 From: ti64877 at imcnam.sbi.com (Ingargiola, Tito) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy Message-ID: <3994C79D0211D211A99F00805FE6DEE249C02B@exchny15.corp.smb.com> Hi, [ Jonathan Borden states: ] > You are suggesting using the DOM to model your distributed objects. > This is a bad idea. You are correct in your conclusion that this is a bad > use of granularity, though I've never tested this out myself because it is > evident by a quick analysis of round trips. > agreed > What I had suggested was to use > XML to marshal objects by value (MBV) which specifically gets around the > network roundtrip killer. > Actually, the idea of using XML as the means of achieving MBV doesn't seem too good to me. Why? First, one of the great attractions of a distributed object system is precisely that I'm not typically zapping objects about the network, but am rather dealing with the more interesting objects in different address spaces by (remote) reference. So, as an an application developer using corba, I really don't care too much how my corba implementation (as provided by Iona or whomever) does its business (e.g., marshalling). I just care that it does it correctly and, hopefully efficiently. The question then becomes: "does a corba implementation developer (e.g., someone writing orbix at Iona) want to use xml as the underlying representation for the marshalling of objects?" I still think the answer to this question is likely "no." It'll likely be less efficient than other such implementations, and adds little value otherwise. Finally, I'm not convinced that a corba/RPC-style of remote method invocation is typically well suited to web-oriented interactions -- most things on the web can be treated naturally and efficiently as streams. Why add the extra weight (which seems to buy me little) of corba to a domain in which it seems a mis-fit? > Furthermore I am suggesting that by enabling use of web native > protocols > under currently available distributed object systems we can move toward a > better integration of distributed objects and the web. > I certainly share your enthusiasm for a better integration between distributed objects and the web. My experience thus far tells me that layering corba (or some other rpc -like mechanism) on top of more ubiquitous streaming protocols costs a lot and yields little benefit. However, efforts like http-ng offer the promise of such an integration without carrying some of the baggage that might come with trying to shoehorn a big heavy thing like corba on top of something so umm svelte ;-> as http and friends. Naturally, your mileage may vary... Best regards, Tito. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 6 18:10:50 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? Message-ID: <001201be97d2$f7585440$27f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Joshua E. Smith >My language isn't anything like LISP or ALGOL, but I think this gets the >point across. It's pretty easy to write programming languages which are >XML-Conformant. >From one point of view, all interaction actions with a computer corresponds to "programming" in a language (in that a grammar, however complicated, can be constructed to model it: I suppose this is an implication of Church's Thesis). While true, that viewpoint deprives "programming" of its specific meaning; it makes "programming language"=="markup language"=="interaction modeling language". It ignores that a markup language is designed to be data with processing instructions embedded, while a programming language is processing instuctions with data embedded. Of course, there are middle grounds: there are data-ish programming languages such as LISP, and programmish DTDs such as ISMID. If you are looking at making programming languages in XML, look at ISMID, which is a compiled format for IETMS (Interactive Electronic Technical Manuals). You can see it at the US Navy site (www.ietm.net) or (better) at the ISO site: http://www.jtc1.org/Navigation.asp?Area=Structure&Mode=Browse&SubComm=SC *space*34&x=7&y=6 then go "documents" then search for "MID" (remember to click the "Search by title" button") then clock on document 7, "Revised Text of MID". Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu May 6 18:18:37 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy References: <3994C79D0211D211A99F00805FE6DEE249C026@exchny15.corp.smb.com> Message-ID: <3731BF1C.5967924F@pacbell.net> "Ingargiola, Tito" wrote: > > [JonathonBorden states:] > > > This isn't the problem with RPC systems at all (including CORBA, Java > > RMI, DCOM, DCE-RPC etc), and certainly the current defacto web 'protocol' > > namely a form and www-form-encoding or a CGI query string is hardly a > > robust > > way for programs to communicate. Rather, the ubiquity of firewalls allows > > HTTP and SMTP traffic to flow where no RPC can go. [ Though note that this comment didn't actually respond to any of my points that it was positioned as responding to ... ] > This seems a hard argument to make given that popular corba implementations > which support firewalls via tunneling techniques have been around for a > number of years, yet have not had much impact on corba's (lack of) > popularity. The reason that http & friends have had the impact corba had > hoped for has to do primarily with the fact that they're simple > ("web-weasels" don't typically write CORBA servers); other reasons include > ubiquity, performance and tools (emacs, vi, or notepad all work pretty well > along with one of the many free, stable httpds available to anyone). Right. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu May 6 18:54:27 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy References: <035701be972a$1812abd0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <3731C91D.3D2128F7@pacbell.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > David Brownell wrote: > > >There's a signifcant issue with the quality of the linking. RPC systems > >hide significant parts of the network, which need to be surfaced. They > >don't expose faults well, or recovery mechanisms; they complicate callback > >style messaging patterns unduly; they bury encoding issues, and impose > >specific protocol-to-API mappings even in environments where they're not > >at all appropriate. > > This isn't the problem with RPC systems at all (including CORBA, Java > RMI, DCOM, DCE-RPC etc), Which of those six points are you referring to? I assure you I've seen at least half of those problems in each "RPC" system you mention. > and certainly the current defacto web 'protocol' > namely a form and www-form-encoding or a CGI query string is hardly a robust > way for programs to communicate. For three years now, I've advised folk to use HTTP "POST" with request bodies that encode data in some useful form ... e.g. XML documents. Query strings only appropriate for requests where parameters can safely be logged (no credit card info!) or exposed to third party sites (watch those "Referer:" headers) and also are idempotent (which very few are). > Rather, the ubiquity of firewalls allows > HTTP and SMTP traffic to flow where no RPC can go. That's an issue I raise separately. CORBA was designed to support the notion of firewall bridging, and in fact I wrote that into the spec. Few other RPC systems have the technical wherewithal to handle that; you need an exposed, queriable type system. (Preferably a lot better than XML DTDs!) > You are missing the picture. Designing your own network protocol for > each new application is as useful as writing your own XML parser for each > new application. Apples and oranges. Exactly what do you think any RPC's IDL is doing, if not defining a new protocol? (And causing problems by equating it to API?) Are you perhaps confusing lower level protocols with higher level ones? > We have learned something from layering, interfaces and > code reuse (despite your protests). Why should a developer need understand > network issues etc when all they wish to do is send a message across the > network. Sending messages is what defines a protocol. Sending new messages is what defines a new protocol. Not all sequences of messages can work in the face of the inevitable failures, and that's part of why developers need to have some understanding of network issues. > >Consider that no RPC system in the world (CORBA, ONC, DCE, etc) has had > >the reach of some rather basic non-RPC systems like E-Mail (SMTP, POP, > >IMAP) or the web (HTTP, HTML, XML, etc). For folk who have spent a lot > >of time working on architectural issues, this is telling: it says that > >there's quite likely a problem with the RPC approach. > > That's exactly my point, there is no reason not to layer IDL on top of > perfectly good protocols such as HTTP and SMTP. You're then missing my point in its entirety. The problem is the model, the notion that the system building block is an "RPC" of any kind. Protocol isn't the issue; after all, in an RPC system, it doesn't matter right? Since nobody sees it. > Why do you compare RPC to XML? > They are different species. This confuses the issue. I don't think I compared them except by context; but the reason it's an interesting comparision is because they _are_ different species. XML based systems can be designed without some of the flaws of RPC based systems. Or -- they could recreate those flaws. I vote for the former. > I'm suggesting that the abstraction afforded by IDL and RPC can be > layered on top of HTTP and SMTP via XML? Do you have a problem with this? Yes. I stated it pretty succinctly above: > > they bury encoding issues, and impose > > specific protocol-to-API mappings even in environments where they're not > > at all appropriate. Or as I said later in that post, you have to change API and protocol in lockstep. > This is my suggestion (feel free to propose another): Distributed > systems can communicate via HTTP and SMTP using XML documents as the > contents of their MIME messages So far so good; people have agreed on that one for some time. Though I'm waiting to see details on how SMTP really fits in. Store-and-forward messaging is usually done through a different API model than RPC. > and function in the same fashion as > distributed systems which employ IIOP or DCE-RPC. That's where I have problems. Those systems impose the RPC model. And I have stopped liking that model for "real systems". It's an appealing way to get started; there's a seeming simplicity from the academic point of view. But such systems don't grow/evolve so well. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From fitzhugh at cup.hp.com Thu May 6 19:06:16 1999 From: fitzhugh at cup.hp.com (Andrew Fitzhugh) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy In-Reply-To: <373126DC.B957ACD3@fiduciary.com> Message-ID: <000801be97e2$7ef5e5c0$ba5a000f@samba.cup.hp.com> W. E. Perry wrote: > Jonathan Borden wrote: > > > Furthermore I am suggesting that by enabling use of web native protocols > > under currently available distributed object systems we can move toward a > > better integration of distributed objects and the web. > > This is an admirable goal, and one which I believed in and pursued for some time. However, > 'currently available distributed object systems' were designed for closed enterprise networks > and have proved (are proving?) to be utterly unsuitable for the web. Whether or not an XML-RPC based distributed computing system is technically superior/correct/elegant/efficient to me is not so important. To me HTML + HTTP opened the door to an explosion of *content* publishing, where laymen were as successful as SGML experts. Nobody ever argued that HTML was superior to SGML; it was obviously more accessible, though. XML-RPC + HTTP can allow a similar explosion of *functionality* publishing. It allows distributed computing laymen to build remotely accessible applications with orders of magnitude less effort than it takes to build CORBA/DCOM/IIOP/etc. based distributed apps today. HTML is really a primitive layout format, yet it became pervasive overnight. XML-RPC based distributed apps could be seen as quite primitive compared to mature, rigorously designed distributed object frameworks, but they are so simple that they could become pervasive. I see it as the gentrification of distributed object computing. -- Andy ________________________________________________________________________ Andrew Fitzhugh fitzhugh@cup.hp.com HP Internet Imaging Operation xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu May 6 19:26:57 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage References: Message-ID: <3731D0C9.E3593B37@locke.ccil.org> Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > The associations should affect what > program is launched when I double-click a file of a particular type. It > should not affect what happens when I specifically ask a particular program > to open a particular file. For the most part IE is (and always has been) a simple container for ActiveX controls (including the HTML one) rather than an application per se. An interesting illustration: if you open a file://c:/foo/bar/baz URL, where baz is a directory, you get an ordinary Windows Explorer window displaying the contents of the directory! -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 6 19:39:05 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: DTD for RDF? How is that possible? Message-ID: <001501be97df$4a8194e0$27f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Roger L. Costello >I recall seeing a posting a few months back where someone posted a DTD That was me! See http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/resource_index.html >for RDF. Upon reflection I find this puzzling. How could you possibly >create a DTD for RDF? Not at all. It was trivial to make a DTD for almost all of the RDF syntax. I think the DTD is a lot clearer than their formal syntax. In fact, their formal syntax leaves out rdf:subject, rdf:object, rdf:predicate, rdf:type and rdf:type. I have put these in today. The only thing that eludes DTDs is the unlimited number of rdf:_n attributes; I have put in 8 and you can add as many more as you need; they seem a particularly gratuitous carbuncle on RDF to me: I trust everyone will boycott that abbreviated form (the GratAbbCarb ?). >It is my understanding that RDF documents can only be "well-formed". >There is no such thing as a "valid" RDF document. Correct? /Roger But for any particular group of documents you can make up a DTD for them. And you can use a variant of the DTD to constrain your users to prevent them from using the rdf:_n attributes. That would be a prudent move. So in fact you can have lots of DTDs which generate data that complies with RDF. And you can generate a DTD (like mine) which should accept any RDF document (providing, of course, that you include complete the DTD to include any domain-specific element names: these can be included in the internal prolog). >... By definition, the child elements in >rdf:Description are arbitrary: > > > > In order to think about the DTDs, we need to split the structure into levels: * The first is the direct structure (this is the DTD that I give)--it says that an rdf:RDF element has a declared content type of ANY--that is easy, and it is what the RDF spec says, under all the fluff; Similarly, rdf:Description can have a content model of ANY. It is important to realize that "ANY" signifies this arbitrariness... * The second is the "architectural" structure (I didn't give a DTD for this: I just put it in comments and a parameter entity; I could have used ISO's Architectural Forms declarations to declare this architectural structure): this says that a child of an rdf:RDF must be ( rdf:Description | rdf:Bag | rdf:Set | rdf:Seq ) and gives the appropriate attributes for these. Because these are architectural elements, they do not have to be signified in the element type identifier (i.e., you can use any name, as long as you have the correct attributes and the correct content models). Rdf:Description would have an architectural content model of (rdf:PropertyElement )* and the rdf:PropertyElement has its due attributes. So conventional DTD modeling sees this as two structures, each of which can be described using DTDs. Since the RDF people didn't use architectures, they are forced to use BNF (which is incomplete w.r.t. XML, and incomplete and confusing w.r.t. RDF) and are banished to cry for other forms of extended context declarations. The document can be validated against the direct DTD only, but the indirect DTD, if constructed, could be used to valid using an architectural validator. (Probably that XAF tool could do it. You could also use XSL to do this kind of validation: I have an article on the same site "Using XSL for Structural Validation" which looks into it: of course, unless XSL has some way to check for names generated from numbers, it cannot validate all possible rdf:_n attributes, but that is a flaw in RDF.) At least the RDF stands as a notable application that doesn't use the direct element type identifier to key the content model. Following Murata Makoto's excellent XTech99 talk about performing set operations on content models, I have been a little afraid that other forms of validation (e.g. architectural validation using attribute names, or content model validations that follow IDREFs instead of subelements) have been thrown out. Which is a shame, because parallel content models provide some nice capabilities (as RDF may, in about a million years, prove). I still find it difficult to see RDF as anything other than a way of making implicit relationships, which every DTD designer builds into their DTD, explicit. This allows generic tools which understands the relationships. But the generic tools still need to understand the schemas, so I think RDF does not take us very far in practise, apart from the drab tasks of managing, navigating and visualizing. It is not a very thick layer, so it is a pity they have such a restrictive syntax: the whole thing should have been an architecture that could have been retrofitted to any existing DTD. A great opportunity missed, IMHO. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu May 6 20:01:46 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: * Steve Oldmeadow | | To quote the Tao Te Ching "He who understands does not preach, he | who preaches does not understand" ;) Seriously though, I would love | to learn LISP and FORTH unfortunately time is limited and there | isn't much demand where I am for LISP and FORTH programmers. However, there is demand for good programmers, and for that reason alone it is well worth your while to learn Lisp. (Certainly, it was worth mine.) My recommendation to anyone who is serious about programming is to get hold of SICP[1] and a book on Common Lisp[2] and get started. SICP should pay off immediately, but Common Lisp requires you to get used to it before you start getting any benefits from it. Oh, and you can earn a living writing Common Lisp. --Lars M. [1] [2] Maybe 'ANSI Common Lisp' and 'On Lisp' by Paul Graham. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu May 6 20:56:22 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy Message-ID: <007f01be97f0$fcbc32d0$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> David, Although IDL started life as a way to specify RPC interfaces, more recently it has become a way to specify interfaces in general (e.g. the DOM which few intend to access via RPC). I don't mean to suggest that 'integration' or layering of IDL onto web protocols need actually mean implementing any specific RPC protocol via XML (e.g. XML-RPC), rather, my intention is to discuss a mechanism to integrate the abstraction of IDL onto the data of XML or SGML. Let me try to rephrase this. The current popular style of object specification describes an object as being composed of interfaces which contain properties and methods (a property is comprised of a getX() setX() method pair). Methods are intended to specify actions. There are benefits to describing systems in this fashion. When we talk about an API, if we are talking about an object system, we are typically talking about a defined set of interfaces. In this way of thinking, in the object world, the API is the primary specification. In the object world, the idea is that if the API is properly specified all the other details will fall into place (e.g. implementation). The document world has a sharply different world-view, the primary focus being data. When the data is properly specified e.g. property sets and groves, all the details fall into place. What I am working on are methods to integrate these two world views. I believe many of the arguments on both sides of the picture. We need to rigorously define interfaces between components and we need to rigorously define data formats. >> >> David Brownell wrote: >> >> >There's a signifcant issue with the quality of the linking. RPC systems >> >hide significant parts of the network, which need to be surfaced. They >> >don't expose faults well, or recovery mechanisms; they complicate callback >> >style messaging patterns unduly; they bury encoding issues, and impose >> >specific protocol-to-API mappings even in environments where they're not >> >at all appropriate. >> When I say: >> This isn't the problem with RPC systems at all (including CORBA, Java >> RMI, DCOM, DCE-RPC etc), > >Which of those six points are you referring to? I assure you I've seen >at least half of those problems in each "RPC" system you mention. Perhaps I worded this incorrectly. We could argue the utility of RPC for years. I find the abstraction of the RPC a very powerful one, regardless of any problems with specific implementations. I think the abstraction of a distributed object or remote method call will become integrated with the web rather than replaced by the web. My main problems with specific implementations is that firewalls are killers even for firewall enabled RPC systems for these reasons: 1) Network address translation. 2) buggy firewalls that choke on binary data but work fine with text. and most importantly !!!! 3) Sys admins already open the HTTP and SMTP ports but get very nervuous or refuse to open selected ports for RPC protocols. These problems are compounded when you have complex networks of firewalls. In the Boston medical environment, for example, each department in a hospital may have its own firewall which links to the hospital which in turn has links to both corporate as well as academic networks and internet connections each passing through different firewalls. E-mail seems to always work, HTTP usually works, otherwise all bets are off. I do believe that the abstraction of the RPC is an important enough one that problems with specific implementations e.g. callbacks and faults, and generally difficult things like recovery mechanisms (as opposed to detection of transaction failure) are worth solving. > > >> and certainly the current defacto web 'protocol' >> namely a form and www-form-encoding or a CGI query string is hardly a robust >> way for programs to communicate. > >For three years now, I've advised folk to use HTTP "POST" with request >bodies that encode data in some useful form ... e.g. XML documents. Then we argee :-) Why are we arguing? > >Apples and oranges. Exactly what do you think any RPC's IDL is doing, if >not defining a new protocol? (And causing problems by equating it to API?) > >Are you perhaps confusing lower level protocols with higher level ones? > One person's low level protocol is another's high level protocol. Perhaps here is the problem. There are a few 'terms' object, protocol, data etc, which get used for a variety of purposes. My point about the need for layering (and invoking the OSI model) is that an analysis at one level may not be appropriate at another level. Is the interface the protocol or DEC-RPC NDR (or ONC-XDR) the protocol? (point only that one 'protocol' may change with each interface while the other remains the same across interfaces). The protocols I am considering are HTTP and SMTP. If you are discussing a need for protocols at a higher level than these, i.e. layered on top of HTTP and SMTP I have no argument. > > >> >Consider that no RPC system in the world (CORBA, ONC, DCE, etc) has had >> >the reach of some rather basic non-RPC systems like E-Mail (SMTP, POP, >> >IMAP) or the web (HTTP, HTML, XML, etc). For folk who have spent a lot >> >of time working on architectural issues, this is telling: it says that >> >there's quite likely a problem with the RPC approach. >> >> That's exactly my point, there is no reason not to layer IDL on top of >> perfectly good protocols such as HTTP and SMTP. > >You're then missing my point in its entirety. The problem is the model, >the notion that the system building block is an "RPC" of any kind. Protocol >isn't the issue; after all, in an RPC system, it doesn't matter right? Since >nobody sees it. No my point is that you equate IDL which is a specific way to define interfaces (or APIs) and RPC which defines a network protocol to effect procedure calls across networks. I am saying IDL not RPC. For example, is it wrong to consider a web site as a type of 'distributed object'. Each 'page' in a subdirectory corresponds on an abstract level to a method in an interface. This might allow integration of UML tools for example and web tools. Communications between client and server under this model are between HTTP user agent/browser and HTTP server. > > >> This is my suggestion (feel free to propose another): Distributed >> systems can communicate via HTTP and SMTP using XML documents as the >> contents of their MIME messages > >So far so good; people have agreed on that one for some time. Though >I'm waiting to see details on how SMTP really fits in. Store-and-forward >messaging is usually done through a different API model than RPC. > I am not proposing an RPC model but for the sake of argument, in Microsoft's COM+, for example, async method calls operate via an MSMQ transport of MS-RPC. MSMQ is a messaging protocol. I see no reason that COM+ async method calls couldn't be implemented over SMTP if MS had the inclination. I see SMTP as useful for async messaging where HTTP is useful for sync messaging. Both transmit MIME messages. A concrete benefit of SMTP is that it can go anywhere, even where HTTP is not enabled, for example I have used this for ship to shore telemedicine links via bandwidth challenged satellite links. Again this is a comparison done xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Thu May 6 21:17:09 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:46 2004 Subject: XML-Data and database mapping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001101be97f4$efb91090$27d1000d@deimos.parc.xerox.com> I think you'll find some (not necessarily all) of your issues are addressed in the first draft output of the XML Schema WG, just announced at . xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Thu May 6 21:56:51 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: RDF Question: attaching multiple types to a resource Message-ID: <3731F43E.60473329@mitre.org> In an earlier posting it was clarified (to me) how a resource type property could be used as the resource element, i.e., [other properties] can be equivalently expressed as: [other properties] This morning I read in the RDF spec that you can associate multiple type properties to a resource, e.g., [other properties] If I wanted to create the alternate syntax as I did above, which type would I migrate up? Would the equivalent syntax be: [other properties] or [other properties] or both? I apologize for not stating my question very well. I am at a loss for the correct terminology. What is the correct terminology for morphing the syntax from: [other properties] to: [other properties] How about: "The type property has migrated up to resource element"? /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Thu May 6 22:11:18 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: Some answers to my questions... Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990506160747.0103f1b4@tiac.net> FYI (stuff for that FAQ I'll never get around to writing): 1) It's trivial to link expat statically in a Windows environment. Just do the obvious and it just works. (James Clark is clearly a programmer who knows what he's doing.) Also, expat *can* read external general entities, you just have to help it a little. 2) There *are* already XML editors which look at the DTD and do very smart things. More than validating, they *prompt* you for stuff. The xeena editor at alphaworks (mentioned by someone earlier) is a bit slow (read: UI in Java) but very clever. On a really fast machine (faster than my P266 laptop), it'd be a terrific tool. 3) Looks like it's OK to trust an editor not to dump all your default values out into output files, so it's OK to put your default values in the DTD. Xeena does the right thing with them, so I presume others will follow suit. 4) Again, just judging from Xeena, I'm going to have to find a way to make my XML-Conformant programming lanugage valid, as well as well-formed. As I feared, it's hard for a validating editor to deal with invalid stuff. And xeena deals with valid stuff in very cool ways. Question still pending: Why should I use an external unparsed entity for URL attributes, when CDATA seems to be just fine? Oh, and a small amusement for you... LISP: (defun factorial (x) (if (= x 1) 1 (* x (- x 1)))) XML-LISP: The latter is a little more bloated in emacs, but it looks really nice in an XML editor. Q.E.D. ;) -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From LippmannJ at mmanet.com Thu May 6 22:38:00 1999 From: LippmannJ at mmanet.com (Lippmann, Jens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <1CEC4A85AB34D21181C900A0C9CFE1279A78AC@NY_EXCH_01> > Everyone has suggested changing the associations, buct that's not the > issue. I am aware of how to do that. The problem is that despite the > association with Textpad I should still be able to open an > XML file in IE > and I can't. Can you describe the symptoms. I actually changed the association of "Open" to XMLPad.exe and was still able to use the File|Open command IE5 to open a "foo.xml" file. The only issue is that it doesn't have a filter for XML files, so you have to select "All Files" in order to be able to see your XML file. But this is regardless of the association. Do you want to create a filter for XML files? Jens xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Thu May 6 23:08:59 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: LISP + XML [was Re: XML-Conformant Programming Languages] Message-ID: At 11:01 AM 5/6/99, Lars Marius Garshol wrote: >* Steve Oldmeadow >| >| To quote the Tao Te Ching "He who understands does not preach, he >| who preaches does not understand" ;) Seriously though, I would love >| to learn LISP and FORTH unfortunately time is limited and there >| isn't much demand where I am for LISP and FORTH programmers. > >However, there is demand for good programmers, and for that reason >alone it is well worth your while to learn Lisp. (Certainly, it was >worth mine.) [...] Oh, and you can earn a living writing Common Lisp. My company is very interested in people that are savvy both in LISP and XML. We develop commercial XML and web software, included the Emile XML editor, the XPublish XML based website publishing system, the Cascade CSS style sheets editor, and the Interaction web server companion that uses server-side XML for dynamic, personalized websites. All implemented in ANSI Common LISP during the past four years (we supported extensible markup before XML was a term). Those that qualify and are interested in being on our list of candidates for positions are welcome to let me know by sending a resumee. In addition, we have an internship position for summer/fall available for students or recent graduates that have working knowledge of XML and LISP. We are also interested in people and companies that have the required competence to use Common LISP for customizing our XML software solutions for local customers and specific markets. Media Design in*Progress is located in San Diego, California. -- Terje Norderhaug President & Chief Technologist Media Design in*Progress San Diego, California Software for Mac Web Professionals at xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu May 6 23:36:49 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? In-Reply-To: <012101be96a5$a9c85000$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504221521.00c392a8@tiac.net> <012101be96a5$a9c85000$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: * Joshua E. Smith | | Nonetheless, always up for the academic discussion, you can express | the entire syntax of the LISP programming language in less than a | page of DTD, I bet. You can, but then you lose some of the really interesting things, such as read-macros and dispatching characters. It's hard to see any valid equivalents of those. For good examples of read-macros, see * Steve Oldmeadow | | I don't know LISP but how would you express scoping rules such as a | locally defined variable can only be accessed within the block it is | defined such as in Java? Like type-checking this is generally considered to be semantics and so one wouldn't normally expect a grammar to be able to express this. (In fact, I don't think it's possible using a context-free grammar.) | I came to the conclusion that XML added very little and that you | were better off just using the traditional tools to generate a | parser for your language. I certainly have to agree here. I think I prefer the approach taken by someone else recently: parse the language syntax into XML and then apply stylesheets and parsers to the XML for documentation, pretty-printing and whatever. | One thing I toyed with was whether a yacc like tool would be useful | for XML-ish languages, in other words it would help you generate | parsers for languages that are marked up using XML. This is probably possible, and I think this is what some of the alphaWorks tools do. Also, I already have an unreleased Python package which can turn some kinds of XML documents into sets of elements using some simple rules. This completely does away with the entire application-specific parser notion and just lets you use the objects. It doesn't work for all kinds of documents, though, but I think it might be possible to extend it to do so. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mads at pacbell.net Fri May 7 01:14:22 1999 From: mads at pacbell.net (MP) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. Message-ID: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> Hello, Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to use the parser simultaneously. According to IBM's alphaworks discussion group, their XML4J parser is NOT thread safe. Not sure about other parsers. Any pointers are appreciated. Thanks, Madhu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From clovett at microsoft.com Fri May 7 02:38:43 1999 From: clovett at microsoft.com (Chris Lovett) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. Message-ID: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C0F36298A@RED-MSG-56> The ActiveX Control (MSXML.DLL - Microsoft XML Version 2.0) in IE5 provides a thread safe DOM with the progid "Microsoft.FreeThreadedXMLDOM". Attached is a document describing how to use this from Java. -----Original Message----- From: MP [mailto:mads@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:14 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. Hello, Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to use the parser simultaneously. According to IBM's alphaworks discussion group, their XML4J parser is NOT thread safe. Not sure about other parsers. Any pointers are appreciated. Thanks, Madhu begin 600 javadom.htm M/&AT;6P^#0H-"CQH96%D/@T*#0H\;65T82!N86UE/2)'14Y%4D%43U(B(&-O M;G1E;G0](DUI8W)O2!B M9V-O;&]R/2(C1D9&1D9&(CX-"@T*/&@Q/E5S:6YG('1H92!)134@6$U,($1/ M32!FF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/D%F=&5R#0II;G-T86QL M:6YG('1H92!)134@=F5RF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@ M35,B/FAT='`Z+R]X;6QW96(O;7-X;6PO:6YS=&%L;"YH=&T\+V9O;G0^/"]A M/CQF;VYT(&-O;&]R/2(C.#`P,#@P(B!S:7IE/2(R(B!F86-E/2)#;VUI8R!3 M86YS($U3(CXI('EO=2!C86X@=7-E('1H90T*5FES=6%L($HK*R`V+C`@;65N M=2!I=&5M("9Q=6]T.U!R;VIE8W0O061D($-/32!7&UL)G%U;W0[+B9N8G-P.R!4:&5N('EO=2!C86X@ M=7-E('1H97-E(&%S(&9O;&QO=W,Z/"]F;VYT/CPO<#X-"@T*/&)L;V-K<75O M=&4@7-T96TN;W5T+G!R:6YT;&XH)G%U;W0[3&]A9&5D M("9Q=6]T.R`K(&1O8RYG971$;V-U;65N=$5L96UE;G0H*2YG971.;V1E3F%M M92@I*3L\8G(^#0H@("`@)FYBF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/E1H:7,@;&]A9',-"F$@,RXX M(&UE9V%B>71E('1E&UL(&9R;VT@=&AE('-U;B!R96QI M9VEO;B!E>&%M<&QE*0T*:6X@86)O=70@,B!S96-O;F1S("AO;B!A(%`R-C8I M+B!2;W5G:&QY('1H92!S86UE(&%S('1H92!#*RL@<&%R2`S+C0@=&EM97,@2!D:69F97)E M;F-E(&ES('1H92!U6QE M/2)-05)'24XM4DE'2%0Z(#!P>"(^#0H@("`@/'`^/&9O;G0@8V]L;W(](B,P M,#`P1D8B('-I>F4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O=7)I97(@3F5W(CY)6$U,1$]-3F]D M90T*("`@(')O;W0Q(#T@9&]C+F=E=$1O8W5M96YT16QE;65N="@I.SQBF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B M/DE834Q%;&5M96YT*BPF;F)S<#L\+V9O;G0^/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O M;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@ M35,B/DE834Q%&UL7V5RF4] M(C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/E1H:7,-"F)R:6YG6]U(&-A;B!P2!P96%R(&ET(&1O=VX@ M2!D96QE=&EN9R!T:&4@9F]L;&]W:6YG(&5X=')A;F5O M=7,@=&AI;F=S.CPO9F]N=#X\+W`^#0H-"CQU;#X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O;G0@ M8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B M/D1/349R9654:')E861E9$1O8W5M96YT#0H@("`@("`@("T@=6YL97-S('EO M=2!P;&%N('1O('5S92!T:&4@6$U,(&1O8W5M96YT(&9R;VT@;75L=&EP;&4- M"B`@("`@("`@=&AR96%DF4](C(B(&9A M8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/EA-3$AT='!297%U97-T#0H@("`@("`@("T@ M=6YL97-S('EO=2!W86YT('1O('1A;&L@=&\@F4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O M;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE85$Q2=6YT:6UE#0H@("`@("`@("T@6%-,('-T>6QE M('-H965T('-CF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A M;G,@35,B/EA-3$133T-O;G1R;VP-"B`@("`@("`@+2!UF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/E1H:7,-"F)R M:6YG65RF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B M/D1/341O8W5M96YT+`T*("`@("`@("!)6$U,1$]-1&]C=6UE;G0\+V9O;G0^ M/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B M(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU.;V1E*CPO9F]N=#X\+VQI M/@T*("`@(#QL:3X\9F]N="!C;VQOF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU$;V-U;65N=$9R M86=M96YT*CPO9F]N=#X\+VQI/@T*("`@(#QL:3X\9F]N="!C;VQOF4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B M/D%N9"!I9B!Y;W4-"FYE960@=&\@<&QA>2!W:71H($141"!I;F9OF4](C(B(&9A M8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU$;V-U;65N=%1Y<&4\+V9O;G0^ M/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B M(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU%;G1I='D-"B`@("`@("`@ M/"]F;VYT/CPO;&D^#0H@("`@/&QI/CQF;VYT(&-O;&]R/2(C.#`P,#@P(B!S M:7IE/2(R(B!F86-E/2)#;VUI8R!386YS($U3(CY)6$U,1$]-3F]T871I;VX\ M+V9O;G0^/"]L:3X-"CPO=6P^#0H-"CQP/CQF;VYT(&-O;&]R/2(C.#`P,#@P M(B!S:7IE/2(R(B!F86-E/2)#;VUI8R!386YS($U3(CY!;&P@;F]D97,-"FEN M(&%N(%A-3"!D;V-U;65N="!A7!E("$A(0T*F4](C(B M(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU!='1R:6)U=&4\+V9O;G0^ M/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B M(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU#1$%405-E8W1I;VX\+V9O M;G0^/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4] M(C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU#:&%R86-T97)$871A M/"]F;VYT/CPO;&D^#0H@("`@/&QI/CQF;VYT(&-O;&]R/2(C.#`P,#@P(B!S M:7IE/2(R(B!F86-E/2)#;VUI8R!386YS($U3(CY)6$U,1$]-0V]M;65N=#PO M9F]N=#X\+VQI/@T*("`@(#QL:3X\9F]N="!C;VQO6]U(&AA=F4@=&\@=7-E($E834Q$3TU.;V1E+F=E=$%T=')I8G5T97,H M*2YS971.86UE9$ET96TH+BXN*2D\+V9O;G0^/"]L:3X-"B`@("`\;&D^/&9O M;G0@8V]L;W(](B,X,#`P.#`B('-I>F4](C(B(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@ M35,B/DE834Q$3TU0F4](C(B(&9A8V4] M(D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU%;G1I='E2969EF4](C(B M(&9A8V4](D-O;6EC(%-A;G,@35,B/DE834Q$3TU497AT#0H@("`@("`@("AU M;FQE6]U(&QI:V4@=&AE('-T; from Joshua E. Smith on Thu, May 06, 1999 at 10:23:14AM -0400 References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> <3.0.1.32.19990506102314.01058930@tiac.net> Message-ID: <19990507111629.D12431@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Thu, May 06, 1999 at 10:23:14AM -0400, Joshua E. Smith wrote: > Or maybe we can all agree on some APIs (God, let it not be ActiveX!) which > editors should provide, so we can tell them (from a running program) to > highlight a given line and character position, to add an item (like "Stop > Here") to their menu bar, etc. Delphi actually exposes just such an API, which editors such as Multi-Edit put to good use. Whether that approach (and I don't know the details) is appropriate for a standard/convention I'll leave to others to debate. In the more general case, it is, in fact, extremely simple to invoke almost any other tool from Delphi by using the Tools configuration dialog, which provides macros that expand to current file, current line, current path, etc. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mads at pacbell.net Fri May 7 03:39:09 1999 From: mads at pacbell.net (MP) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. References: <2F2DC5CE035DD1118C8E00805FFE354C0F36298A@RED-MSG-56> Message-ID: <010301be982a$4dbb4700$4526578b@ops.3com.com> Thanks for pointer. However, I'm looking for a pure Java solution. Our servers run on multiple platforms. Thanks, Madhu ----- Original Message ----- From: Chris Lovett To: 'MP' ; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 5:37 PM Subject: RE: Java based XML parsers for server use. The ActiveX Control (MSXML.DLL - Microsoft XML Version 2.0) in IE5 provides a thread safe DOM with the progid "Microsoft.FreeThreadedXMLDOM". Attached is a document describing how to use this from Java. -----Original Message----- From: MP [mailto:mads@pacbell.net] Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 4:14 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. Hello, Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to use the parser simultaneously. According to IBM's alphaworks discussion group, their XML4J parser is NOT thread safe. Not sure about other parsers. Any pointers are appreciated. Thanks, Madhu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Fri May 7 04:34:19 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: The Protocol [was: Syntax] is API Fallacy In-Reply-To: <3994C79D0211D211A99F00805FE6DEE249C02B@exchny15.corp.smb.com> Message-ID: <003601be9831$03388dd0$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Tito, > > What I had suggested was to use > > XML to marshal objects by value (MBV) which specifically gets around the > > network roundtrip killer. > > > Actually, the idea of using XML as the means of achieving MBV doesn't seem > too good to me. > > Why? First, one of the great attractions of a distributed object > system is > precisely that I'm not typically zapping objects about the network, but am > rather dealing with the more interesting objects in different > address spaces > by (remote) reference. So, as an an application developer using corba, I > really don't care too much how my corba implementation (as > provided by Iona > or whomever) does its business (e.g., marshalling). I just care that it > does it correctly and, hopefully efficiently. To David Brownell: I see your argument very clearly now. Sometimes, in order to get things working efficiently you need to get concerned with protocols. Fine grained object access across process boundaries is slow. There is no getting around this. Sometimes it is alot more efficient to zap a document across a network in one fell swoop and the zap back changes rather than updating it character by character. Like any development system there are good and bad uses. Techniques such as MBV help distributed object systems designers avoid the pitfalls of find grained object access across process boundaries. > > Finally, I'm not convinced that a corba/RPC-style of remote method > invocation is typically well suited to web-oriented interactions -- most > things on the web can be treated naturally and efficiently as > streams. Why > add the extra weight (which seems to buy me little) of corba to a > domain in > which it seems a mis-fit? > Agreed, who needs it! Precisely what I am suggesting is that sending large grained packets of information (e.g. documents) across the web is the proper way to develop distributed object systems. I do believe there is a role for object analysis and design and that object methodologies including interface development can and should be applied to web development. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Fri May 7 05:23:33 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: <007b01be9838$410093e0$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Marius Garshol To: Sent: 07/05/1999 2:01 Subject: Re: XML-Conformant Programming Languages > However, there is demand for good programmers, and for that reason > alone it is well worth your while to learn Lisp. (Certainly, it was > worth mine.) > Can you elaborate on why Lisp made you a better programmer? Please bear in mind though that where I am located (and I don't want to relocate) I have a snowball's chance in hell of making a living out of Lisp so how would learning Lisp help make me a better developer given I have to work with Java and C++? Honestly though, I have trouble staying on top of what is happening in Java/OO/XML so taking time to learn another language would need to have a big payback. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Fri May 7 06:09:06 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages References: Message-ID: <00ce01be983e$a487a560$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: adam moore To: Steve Oldmeadow Cc: Sent: 06/05/1999 6:34 Subject: Re: XML-Conformant Programming Languages > On Thu, 6 May 1999, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > Surely this is exactly what DTD's can do - 'organize the constructs of a > language' - and with a DTD and something like Xeena from IBM I think it's > possible now? (Xeena is an editor that uses a DTD to constrain the authors > into only writing valid syntax: http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xeena). I apologise. I was expecting too much from the grammar alone but my point still is a language with out the tools to interpret it is not very useful. Take writing an XSL processor as an example, does being able to parse an XSL document into a DOM tree help you with writing an XSL processor? I don't think it does. How useful is XSL without XSL processors? > > > As far as "Visual Programming" environments go (especially for "non > > programmers") I think it is invaluable to have the ability to step through > > the code and see what is happening which implies an IDE rather than a simple > > editor. > > > I agree - but to have a tool which ONLY LETS YOU WRITE VALID CODE IN THE > FIRST PLACE will surely be a big leap up from trying to debug code you > wrote in a standard editor and then try and find the typo's/missing > separators/line-breaks/etc.? I think it has a lot to do with the complexity of the language. With Joshua's example of a Lisp program I can certainly see how a DTD constrained editor would be fine. However, if someone gave me the DTD for Java and said I can use Xeena or JBuilder I would choose JBuilder. I wouldn't even want to imagine what writing C++ would be like under Xeena! Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri May 7 08:31:59 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:47 2004 Subject: XML-Conformant Programming Languages In-Reply-To: <007b01be9838$410093e0$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.1.32.19990505084700.0103ce30@tiac.net> <005601be9761$54ea0f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> <007b01be9838$410093e0$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: * Steve Oldmeadow | | Can you elaborate on why Lisp made you a better programmer? Sure. Bear in mind when reading the below that I'm talking about both learning Scheme, learning and using Common Lisp and reading SICP. Also bear in mind that I'm no expert on CL, just at the end of the novice stage. I learned a lot about program design and now see it in a different way from before. This comes partly from being exposed to the 'design a language to write your program in'-philosophy, partly from seeing how Scheme (and Common Lisp through MOP) lets you build your own object systems and from getting used to a truly different object system. Another thing I learned a lot about was the differences and strengths of different families of programming languages (functional, imperative, OOP, etc). This was mainly from SICP. There's probably some improvement in the way I write individual lines of code as well, from being exposed to a language that is enormously much more expressive, but I'm not really sure. I also see data structures and working with them in a different light. A final, and major benefit, is the realization that there is much more to the world than just Java and C++, and that this world beyond those two has a lot to offer. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri May 7 08:34:27 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. In-Reply-To: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> References: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> Message-ID: * mads@pacbell.net | | Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server | side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that | should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to | use the parser simultaneously. I have to confess that I haven't looked at this aspect of parsers, but if you want a list of parsers to serve as a starting point you can look at: --Lars M: xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From volker.wend at poet.de Fri May 7 09:07:31 1999 From: volker.wend at poet.de (Volker Wend) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage In-Reply-To: <1CEC4A85AB34D21181C900A0C9CFE1279A78AC@NY_EXCH_01> Message-ID: <001301be9857$7c03e7c0$160f0fc0@poet.de> Please make also sure that the MIME type is text/xml. This is also specified in the File Extension Dialog. Volker Wend > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Lippmann, Jens > Sent: Thursday, May 06, 1999 10:35 PM > To: 'Elliotte Rusty Harold'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: RE: IE5 brain damage > > > > Everyone has suggested changing the associations, buct > that's not the > > issue. I am aware of how to do that. The problem is that despite the > > association with Textpad I should still be able to open an > > XML file in IE > > and I can't. > > Can you describe the symptoms. I actually changed the > association of "Open" > to XMLPad.exe and was still able to use the File|Open command > IE5 to open a > "foo.xml" file. The only issue is that it doesn't have a > filter for XML > files, so you have to select "All Files" in order to be able > to see your XML > file. But this is regardless of the association. Do you want > to create a > filter for XML files? > > Jens > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From james.powell at bbc.co.uk Fri May 7 10:43:03 1999 From: james.powell at bbc.co.uk (James Powell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: examples of aelfred use in applets required Message-ID: I've been trying to use the small aelfred java parser. I've had problems when using it in an applet. Netscape gives out security errors due to loading the XML file off of a webpage. This is even true when I compile and run the demo applet in the distribution from a webserver. Of course, the demo applet at http://www.microstar.com works perfectly. Does anyone have the source for this and/or working examples? thanks, James Powell ps - is there a digest mode for this list? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Moncef.Mezghani at wanadoo.fr Fri May 7 10:56:51 1999 From: Moncef.Mezghani at wanadoo.fr (MEZGHANI) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?La_soci=E9t=E9_DISTAL_d=E9m=E9nage_=E0_Boulogne?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_Billancourt?= Message-ID: <01BE9876.C795D1C0@bvlzy1-1-252.abo.wanadoo.fr> *** Si vous n'?tes pas concern?s par ce message, Ayez l'obligeance de l'ignorer. *** Je vous prie de noter qu'? partir du 10/5/1999 nous d?m?nageons ?: DISTAL SA 122 rue d'Aguesseau, 92100 Boulogne Billancourt France T?l?copie : 01 49 09 23 94 T?l?phone Support Clients: 01 49 09 28 88 Vous pouvez me joindre directement au: 01 49 09 28 72 Moncef MEZGHANI. Directeur Technique. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arthur.rother at ovidius.com Fri May 7 12:36:39 1999 From: arthur.rother at ovidius.com (Arthur Rother) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Some answers to my questions... In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990506160747.0103f1b4@tiac.net> Message-ID: <4.1.19990507123307.03de8c30@bodoni.ovidius.local> At 16:07 06.05.99 -0400, somebody wrote: >1) It's trivial to link expat statically in a Windows environment. Just do >the obvious and it just works. (James Clark is clearly a programmer who >knows what he's doing.) Also, expat *can* read external general entities, >you just have to help it a little. In my case, I don't have to care so much about the size of the parser and I found, that SP is much faster than expat. Is this true, or must I have made mistakes in integrating expat ? Arthur Rother xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 7 13:51:38 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Thread-safe SAX parsing (was Re: Java based XML parsers for server use.) In-Reply-To: References: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> Message-ID: <14130.52740.240367.323083@localhost.localdomain> Lars Marius Garshol writes: > * mads@pacbell.net > | > | Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server > | side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that > | should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to > | use the parser simultaneously. > > I have to confess that I haven't looked at this aspect of parsers [snip] You could start with this: ====================8<====================8<==================== import java.io.IOException; import java.util.Locale; import org.xml.sax.Parser; import org.xml.sax.InputSource; import org.xml.sax.EntityResolver; import org.xml.sax.DTDHandler; import org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler; import org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler; import org.xml.sax.SAXException; public class SafeParser implements Parser { public SafeParser (Parser parser) { super(); this.parser = parser; } public synchronized void setLocale (Locale locale) throws SAXException { parser.setLocale(locale); } public synchronized void setEntityResolver (EntityResolver resolver) { parser.setEntityResolver(resolver); } public synchronized void setDTDHandler (DTDHandler handler) { parser.setDTDHandler(handler); } public synchronized void setDocumentHandler (DocumentHandler handler) { parser.setDocumentHandler(handler); } public synchronized void setErrorHandler (ErrorHandler handler) { parser.setErrorHandler(handler); } public synchronized void parse (InputSource source) throws SAXException, IOException { parser.parse(source); } public synchronized void parse (String systemId) throws SAXException, IOException { parser.parse(systemId); } private Parser parser; } ====================8<====================8<==================== Although I am far from an expert in concurrent programming, my feeble brain thinks that this should work provided that the following conditions hold true: 1. the implementor of the original parser doesn't use static variables to store parse information -- in other words, the parser is reentrant (they all should be: anyone competent enough to write an XML parser in the first place would probably write a reentrant one); and 2. no two instantiations of the parser use the same Reader or InputStream instantiation (that would be dumb anyway). Once the parse begins, the SAX parser itself controls flow of processing, so I cannot imagine how another thread could mess up the actual parsing (there's no way to change the parser's state externally once it begins parsing). To be perfectly safe, you could always synchronize on the InputSource and/or the InputStream/Reader that you are using. Perhaps people with more experience in Java concurrent programming can take (friendly) shots at this suggestion. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 7 13:54:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: examples of aelfred use in applets required In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14130.54189.940850.605844@localhost.localdomain> James Powell writes: > I've been trying to use the small aelfred java parser. > > I've had problems when using it in an applet. Netscape > gives out security errors due to loading the XML file > off of a webpage. The default security model in most browsers allows an applet to open TCP/IP connections only to the host from which it was loaded. For example, if your applet is at http://www.foo.com/javastuff/stuff.jar, it will be able to load http://www.foo.com/docs/bar.xml but *not* http://www.hack.com/documents/snarf.xml I think that that's getting better in newer browsers, but I haven't looked for a while. The JDK plug-in from Sun might also help. Look at the bright side -- at least there's no equivalent of Melissa in the Java world, yet (imagine if hostile applets could start connecting to arbitrary SMTP hosts). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri May 7 14:25:54 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. References: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> Message-ID: <3732DBA4.1DBC76C4@pacbell.net> MP wrote: > > Hello, > Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server side use? > One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that should be > thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to use the > parser simultaneously. Use Sun's. - Dave > According to IBM's alphaworks discussion group, their XML4J parser is > NOT thread safe. Not sure about other parsers. > > Any pointers are appreciated. > > Thanks, > Madhu > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri May 7 15:27:14 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: RDF Question: attaching multiple types to a resource In-Reply-To: <3731F43E.60473329@mitre.org> from "Roger L. Costello" at May 6, 99 03:57:50 pm Message-ID: <199905071336.JAA11752@locke.ccil.org> Roger L. Costello scripsit: > If I wanted to create the alternate syntax as I did above, which type > would I migrate up? Would the equivalent syntax be: Any one you like. "Migrating the type" is just a minimization with no effect on meaning, so if "type" is a multi-valued property, any of the values can be minimized. RDF minimizations are primarily for 1) people creating RDF by hand, and 2) older XML metadata so that it can be viewed as RDF. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From huck at darmstadt.gmd.de Fri May 7 16:11:50 1999 From: huck at darmstadt.gmd.de (Gerald Huck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: Update of GMD-IPSI XQL engine Message-ID: <000a01be9893$ec9c6700$ba200c8d@darmstadt.gmd.de> The GMD-IPSI XQL engine, a Java based storage and query application for large XML documents, has been updated to the first non-beta release 1.0.0. The distribution contains: 1. A full, persistent implementation of the W3C-DOM 2. A full implementation of the XQL language The download site is http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/ . New Features for PDOM: - Support for all W3C-DOM operations, including updates and inserts. - PDOM files are build using SAX events, main memory no longer is a limit for file size. - PDOM now includes a fully fledged org.w3c.dom.Document interface. - The PDOM file can be compressed on the fly, saving disk space. - The PDOM is thread-safe for read and write access. - New command line interface for multithreaded benchmarks. - New public package with DOM utility functions, including: - pretty-printing XML from a DOM, - instantiating a DOM from RTF and HTML (requires Swing). - The Entity_Reference interface is supported. New Features for XQL: - Added regression test suite. - Command line interface improvements: - Allow user to choose any SAX parser and DOM implementation. - Option to control whitespace treatment. - Accept URL and filenames as input source. - Queries can be posed against HTML, returning XHTML - Support of name:* in queries. - Speed improvement for queries involving attributes. Fixed Defects: - Greatly improved API documentation. - Queries of the form //@* and //@name missed parts of the result. - Subscript, filter and function calls had wrong precedence. - The jar file for 1.0b1 was not working with JDK 1.2.x. - Fixed wrong mixed usage of 'current set of reference nodes' and 'search context'. - Corrected XQL functions end() and index(). - API change: User defined functions are now passed the current reference node and a set of reference nodes. - Upgraded to JavaCC 1.0. - Removed hardcoded dependencies on xml4j. For further questions or bug reports contact the authors below: [1] mailto:huck@gmd.de [2] mailto:macherius@gmd.de xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pwilson at gorge.net Fri May 7 16:49:55 1999 From: pwilson at gorge.net (Peter Wilson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Do I need to use a validating parser? References: <3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504105427.0077e59c@tiac.net><3.0.1.32.19990504125402.0113cc48@tiac.net> <3.0.1.32.19990504221521.00c392a8@tiac.net> <012101be96a5$a9c85000$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: <3732FD76.E658EE35@GORGE.NET> Some time ago I wrote a structured editor where I parsed java source and allowed the user to edit an action diagram. The editor looked after the nesting of compound statements/methods etc. I allowed the user to free type method calls, assignments and conditions. The problem was that I could not reliably re-parse the source if it contained syntax errors. A single } could unhinge the whole scheme. The answer was to use XML to delimit the gross structure of the program source and to let the user type whatever they wanted - but not structure tags. Program source can then be reliably re-parsed. Aside. I am still working towards this goal but have become stuck in the XML/DOM tar pit. I have been working on the idea of compiled XML but came to the realization that the internal structure was not very different from DOM. However, when making the conversion I discover that DOM has been designed with desktop bloatware in mind. The NodeList requirement is one of the worst. The compile function idea still works. You get a binary representation of a DOM tree. This occupies half the size of the original XML and requires no parsing to re-load. The original XML is still recoverable. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Fri May 7 18:06:45 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Some answers to my questions... References: <4.1.19990507123307.03de8c30@bodoni.ovidius.local> Message-ID: <3732D6E0.A984F201@jclark.com> Arthur Rother wrote: > In my case, I don't have to care so much about the size of the parser and I > found, > that SP is much faster than expat. Is this true, or must I have made mistakes > in integrating expat ? The latter. Expat is much faster than SP. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sdemuth at artemisalliance.com Fri May 7 23:32:27 1999 From: sdemuth at artemisalliance.com (Steve Demuth) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Can't subclass ElementNode in applet Message-ID: <4.1.19990507162715.00be5e60@mail.salamander.com> I've got an application which subclasses ElementNode with, for example, a class com.artemisalliance.xml.ModelNode. ModelNode implements some methods which wrap various features of the Node interface. This works fine when I have the com.sun.xml package exploded into my class path for the IDE, but if I try to run it with the package in the jar, either in the ide or in a browser, I get an IllegalAccessError: java.lang.IllegalAccessError: try to access class com/sun/xml/tree/ParentNode from class com/artemisalliance/xml/client/ModelNode I've got three questions: 1) Why is ParentNode not a public class? 2) Why does the JVM throw this only when the package is jar'd? 3) Any ideas what I can do about this? It would be very inconvenient not to be able to subclass ElementNode. TIA Steve Demuth Artemis Alliance, Inc. An Inprise Premier Partner 289 East Fifth St, Suite 211 St. Paul, MN 55101 sdemuth@artemisalliance.com 651-227-7172 or 319-382-0593 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mode at nine.eng.sun.com Sat May 8 00:10:08 1999 From: mode at nine.eng.sun.com (Rajiv Mordani [CONTRACTOR]) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Can't subclass ElementNode in applet In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990507162715.00be5e60@mail.salamander.com> from "Steve Demuth" at May 7, 99 04:34:09 pm Message-ID: <199905072208.PAA13396@nine.eng.sun.com> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: text Size: 2090 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990507/a94cdd60/attachment.bat From roddey at us.ibm.com Sat May 8 01:01:47 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal Message-ID: <8725676A.007E5E5A.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Ok, I'm a little confused about the issues with & in entity literals. Here is one JC test: "> ]> &e; In this one, there is definitely an ampersand in an entity literal which is not part of a numeric character reference or an intrinsic character reference. The spec does not seem to day "No raw & in an entity value unless its a numeric ref or intrinsic ref, or some other reference that's just left unexpanded", right? It just says that there can be no ampersands in an entity value unless its part of a numeric reference or an intrinsic reference. So am I really supposed to parse all general references in an entity value and expand character references and intrinsic references and just ignore all others? Where does it really say that that's what's supposed to happen? And, while I'm at it, am I losing my mind or is this test from JC really not correct: "> ]> &e; This would expand to: which is obviously wrong since foo has no end tag and is not empty? But its in the valid\sa bucket. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From coopercc at netheaven.com Sat May 8 01:02:34 1999 From: coopercc at netheaven.com (Clark Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux Message-ID: <199905072257.SAA00828@camel> There's an article of mine on: http://www.xml.com/ That compares the performance of 6 XML parsers using 4 languages: 1) James Clark's Expat (C) 2) Richard Tobin's RXP (C) 3) James Clark's XP (Java) 4) IBM's XML4J (Java) 5) My XML::Parser (Perl) 6) Jack Jansen's Pyexpat (Python) The same program is implemented in each language and using each parser and then compared with different test cases in the same environment. Please check it out and critique as necessary. Thanks, Clark -- Clark Cooper Software Engineer Home: coopercc@netheaven.com Schenectady, NY USA Work: cccooper@ltionline.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Sat May 8 01:31:24 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:48 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal In-Reply-To: roddey@us.ibm.com's message of Fri, 7 May 1999 17:00:15 -0600 Message-ID: <12492.199905072331@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > > "> > ]> > &e; Hmmm, this one *is* a little strange. Let's consider the other one first: > > "> > ]> > &e; The < is *not* expanded when the entity is defined. It is a general entity (that it's built-in makes no difference) and is "bypassed" in the terminology of section 4.4. So it's just as if the body had been <foo> which is perfectly well-formed. Back to the first example. What's strange about it is that I believe that "> (note the missing semicolon) would not be well-formed, even though there turns out not to be an entity reference when it is expanded in the body! In the original, &foo; is (by production 9) an entity reference when it appears in the entity definition (and it is bypassed), but is not an entity reference when it is parsed in the body. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Sat May 8 03:03:23 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: A gem of a paper Message-ID: <002b01be98ee$c6cfd420$4af2fea9@w21tp> If you are into Case-based Reasoning (CBR) like I am, you might be interested in a little gem of a paper on a distributed CBR system that uses XML for case representation. The paper was apparently written sometime ago but I found it only today. CBR and XML is an obvious fit but I found very little info except this paper and some blurp about Inference Corp doing something with XML. Anyway, here is the link: http://www.cs.tcd.ie/Conor.Hayes/cbrnet/publish.html Enjoy, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From graydon at pobox.com Sat May 8 03:05:25 1999 From: graydon at pobox.com (Graydon Hoare) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: interpolating tree fragments in xslt Message-ID: <19990507210511X.graydon@pobox.com> hey, I've noticed you can pass around output tree fragments in xslt as param-variables, which is nice, it's almost like using sosofos again, but the burning question I have is "how do I interpolate variables of this type into a template"? for example, lets say I do this: Beetles, arachnids, and chickens
The problem is probably really simple but I don't see in the xslt spec anything about interpolating variables of this type into the body of a template. There's the which will stringify the output fragment, but aside from that I'm at a loss as to how to make templates operate on fragments. Or am I thinking too dsssl-like here? -graydon xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat May 8 08:25:21 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: interpolating tree fragments in xslt References: <19990507210511X.graydon@pobox.com> Message-ID: <3733C470.FAAD8C6B@jclark.com> Graydon Hoare wrote: > hey, I've noticed you can pass around output tree fragments in xslt as > param-variables, which is nice, it's almost like using sosofos again, > but the burning question I have is "how do I interpolate variables of > this type into a template"? Use xsl:copy-of. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sun May 9 19:30:38 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990509093952.01c59c60@mail.userland.com> Dear XML-DEV people, In March we decided that RSS-based syndication was too good to pass up, so we quickly built a syndication server in Frontier 6 to compete with My.Netscape.Com. Netscape welcomed us by adding them to their directory. (Thanks Netscape!) RSS is an XML-based format that represents what we in the Frontier community call a "weblog". It's frequently updated site that points to stories on and off-site, that identifies an audience and feeds links to them. Until RSS came along the only format people were using was HTML. RSS changed that. The Motley Fool, Mozilla.Org and Slashdot are examples of online services that are supporting RSS. We're rendering them using Frontier's content management system, for now in HTML. But we are also getting ready to do an open source release of our server software, and all its interfaces will be in XML and XML-RPC, so we're not wanting to be in a controlling position from a standpoint of software or registrations. We are not using RSS to artificially drive sales of our CMS, we want to win because we're the best, not because we have a corner on the market. (Hint to Vignette.) We've decided to open the whole thing. It's too good to try to hold onto. We're doing easy to use software to develop and maintain weblog sites, and of course they will all aggregate using the next generation of RSS and today's RSS. Who knows in what perverted ways this content will flow around the net? I'm totally looking forward to participate in the creative chaos that's coming! Today's milestone is that we're publishing the list of URLs that have been registered so far. This is a dynamic list, it's recalc'd every time you hit the page. http://my.userland.com/xml/serviceList.xml From the XML-DEV perspective, the milestone is that XML is catching up with content developers. It's not too complex and the rewards are not elusive. Put up an RSS version of your site, and you get more flow. An obvious benefit. Tomorrow we'll release the source code for the server and during the next few weeks we'll add XML-RPC interfaces and document them. Dave Winer UserLand Software PS: This message is also at http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$5891. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sun May 9 19:37:36 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux In-Reply-To: <199905072257.SAA00828@camel> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990509103348.01c58d30@mail.userland.com> Interesting article! Now I'm curious to know why Perl, Python and Java are so much slower than the C parsers? Don't you implement the parser in C? It seems like this is an important function to fully optimize or it won't scale. FWIW, the parser built into Frontier is fully native. No script code executed when parsing XML. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Sun May 9 19:50:43 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: RDF via XML style sheets (or 'nice model, shame about the syntax' ;-) Message-ID: hi all I'm hoping that someone with more XSL expertise might provide a little advise here. I'm looking into feasibility of using XSL transformations as an alternative mechanism for derriving an RDF[1] directed labelled graph from XML instance data. This could be either via a transforming XML data into RDF 1.0 Syntax, or into some other format more trivially converted into triples of (Resource subject, Property predicate, RDFnode object) for pouring into an RDF-consuming application[eg. 2]. I've had variations of this working on my desktop using MS IE5.0, just by hacking the XML-to-HTML demos to output RDF instead. What I'd like to know now is how one might set about doing this in a principled fashion. Suppose, for common scenario, that I have an application which can be conceptually mapped into RDF nodes and arcs, but for one of several good reasons I don't feel inclined to use the relatively verbose RDF Syntax to make this explicit. A number of other options for RDF compatibility come to mind... 1. write code that builds in knowledge about proper interpretation of my markup to create a stream of RDF assertions(triples) 2. use an alternative graph-serialisation convention (eg. Andrew Layman's proposal) 3. interpret DTDs,DCDs, schemata etc to figure out which RDF triples are implied by my data 4. Represent the mapping to RDF in an XSL style sheet IMHO there's probably a role for all of these in various contexts. The latter is the one I'm currently concerned with, as it raises prospect of derriving a unified representation of a lot of deployed XML without having to use the RDF syntax for all apps. First question is: what convention, if any, might we use to make it mechanically evident that an associated style sheet serves to transform into machine-friendly RDF (as against, for example, human-friendly (X)HTML)? thanks for any suggestions, Dan [1] http://www.w3.org/RDF/ [2] http://www.w3.org/RDF/Implementations/SiRPAC/ (aside...) SiRPAC is the w3c parser for RDF syntax and has recently acquired a more abstract design allowing for alternative sources of RDF assertions; RDF Syntax 1.0 simply becomes one way for creating a stream of facts to write into an RDF graph. 'Resource','Property','RDFnode' mentioned above show up as classes in SiRPAC; the latter is a convenience superclass of the Literals and the Resources, since an RDF property may have either as its value (we can use Java's instanceof to check which we've got). see also CVS inteface to SiRPAC files at http://dev.w3.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/java/classes/org/w3c/rdf/ http://dev.w3.org/cgi-bin/cvsweb/java/classes/org/w3c/rdf/ConsumerDemo.java?rev=1.1&content-type=text/x-cvsweb-markup In passing -- does anyone have any thoughts on how this interface might better be intergrated into the SAX filter way of doing things? ie. XML plus interpretation rules in one end, RDF triples come out the other... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Sun May 9 20:12:25 1999 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: [ANN] Silfide XML Parser - 0.85 Released Message-ID: <199905091810.UAA25687@chimay.loria.fr> Silfide XML Parser 0.85 Release is now available at: http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/EN/sxp/ Changes from last revision: - SXP provides now a DocumentLoader (was XDOM) generic class to load a DOM Document from a String, an URL, an InputStream or even a SAX InputSource. From an instance of the DocumentLoader it is possible to configure the parser (validating, handle cross-references ID/IDREF, set a NamespaceHandler, etc...). - A new package fr.loria.xml.ns for XML Namespace handler with generic interfaces and default implementations. - A lot of bugs has been fixed (thanks for your bug reports) Java source files, java classes, some samples and documentation are freely available here: http://www.loria.fr/projets/XSilfide/EN/sxp/ Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sean at westcar.com Sun May 9 21:04:16 1999 From: sean at westcar.com (Sean Brown) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML Icon contest Message-ID: This message was originally posted on friday, but has not appeared on either mailing list yet, so I am resending it. Announcing: The final submissions have been made, and the voting will continue until 12 noon friday EDT. The location of the XML/XSL Icons is now: http://www.javanet.com/~sbrown/icons.html You will need to register to vote by submitting oyur email address. A password wil then be sent to you. There are three categories: 1. Best XML icon. 2. Best XML/XSL icon. 3. Best XML/CSS icon. You may vote for your favorite each category, but you only get one chance to vote, so select the favorite in each of the 3 categories before pressing the submit button. The results of the continuing voting will be available for review throughout the voting period. I will send a msg. with a link to the results page in a day or so... -Sean --if you have any problems voting pls. email the error messages along with the date and time of error-- -- #! /usr/bin/perl my %signature = ('name' => 'Sean Brown', 'email' => '', 'org' => 'Westcar Consulting Group', 'eCard' => 'http://www.westcar.com/sbrown/eCard.html'); print map qq|$_ : $signature{$_}\n|, sort keys %signature; xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sun May 9 21:51:25 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990509103348.01c58d30@mail.userland.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990509103348.01c58d30@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: (Not sent to the Perl list.) * Dave Winer | | Interesting article! Now I'm curious to know why Perl, Python and | Java are so much slower than the C parsers? For one thing, the Python application seems to spend somewhere around 40 % of its time counting UTF-8 characters. If the character-counting code were to be replaced by a C Unicode implementation (either that of Fredrik Lundh or the one by Martin von Löwis in the XML-SIG package) Python would show much better performance. (I'd send in a version that did this if I had the time to spare.) Another thing is that although Perl and Python both use a C parser (in this benchmark) calling from C into the interpreters is slow, and you have to do that once for each element as well as once for each and every piece of text. Since the example application also performs a fair bit of work most of the time spent is probably spent in the application code and not in the parser. | FWIW, the parser built into Frontier is fully native. No script code | executed when parsing XML. Does this mean that Frontier doesn't have a callback mode? How do you deal with huge documents, then? --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon May 10 00:10:59 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux In-Reply-To: References: <4.2.0.37.19990509103348.01c58d30@mail.userland.com> <4.2.0.37.19990509103348.01c58d30@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990509150518.01be7630@mail.userland.com> >>Does this mean that Frontier doesn't have a callback mode? How do you deal with huge documents, then? First, thanks for the explanation. It helps me understand what the issues are, and what they are not. Frontier's parser does not have a callback mode. It generates a tree in our object database, and then the script code can walk the tree and do whatever it wants. It's the same thing, and my guess is that a real-world Frontier application would probably perform no better or worse than a Python or Perl one. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Mon May 10 00:20:17 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML References: <4.2.0.37.19990509093952.01c59c60@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <007601be9a6a$54bf8100$4d27fea9@w21tp> Dave, RSS sounds interesting. Where can I find more information on it? A search of Netscape's developer site using "RSS" doesn't find anything. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon May 10 00:40:11 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <007601be9a6a$54bf8100$4d27fea9@w21tp> References: <4.2.0.37.19990509093952.01c59c60@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990509153541.01b73ee0@mail.userland.com> RSS *is* interesting.. http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/quickstart.html It still needs to carry more info, but it's an excellent start. Dave At 03:21 PM 5/9/99 , Don Park wrote: >Dave, > >RSS sounds interesting. Where can I find more information on it? A search >of Netscape's developer site using "RSS" doesn't find anything. > >Best, > >Don Park >Docuverse > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 02:01:14 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Can't subclass ElementNode in applet References: <199905072208.PAA13396@nine.eng.sun.com> Message-ID: <37362155.643B14AC@pacbell.net> "Rajiv Mordani [CONTRACTOR]" wrote: > > Hi Steve, > This error occurs when you use jdk1.1.x. Try using jdk1.2. This > problem doesn't occur with jdk1.2. Or to be more specific: don't use the JDK 1.1.x "javac" (or ones that work like it), just use the JDK 1.2 one (or ones that have that bug fixed). The compiler was generating bad code for accessing interface memebers, ergo "illegal access" ... the correct code runs on JDK 1.1 virtual machines. Re why that class isn't public ... it didn't need to be, and it exposes various internals that were not intended to be supported. In fact, you couldn't subclass it outside of that package anyway. - Dave > If you have any more problems please do > let me know. > > - Rajiv > > > > > I've got an application which subclasses ElementNode with, for example, a > > class com.artemisalliance.xml.ModelNode. ModelNode implements some methods > > which wrap various features of the Node interface. > > > > This works fine when I have the com.sun.xml package exploded into my class > > path for the IDE, but if I try to run it with the package in the jar, > > either in the ide or in a browser, I get an IllegalAccessError: > > > > java.lang.IllegalAccessError: try to access class > > com/sun/xml/tree/ParentNode from class com/artemisalliance/xml/client/ModelNode > > > > I've got three questions: > > > > 1) Why is ParentNode not a public class? > > > > 2) Why does the JVM throw this only when the package is jar'd? > > > > 3) Any ideas what I can do about this? It would be very inconvenient not > > to be able to subclass ElementNode. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 02:05:30 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal References: <8725676A.007E5E5A.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <37362270.9F145C50@pacbell.net> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > > Ok, I'm a little confused about the issues with & in entity literals. Here is > one JC test: > > > "> > ]> > &e; > > In this one, there is definitely an ampersand in an entity literal which is not > part of a numeric character reference or an intrinsic character reference. The > spec does not seem to day "No raw & in an entity value unless its a numeric ref > or intrinsic ref, or some other reference that's just left unexpanded", right? > It just says that there can be no ampersands in an entity value unless its part > of a numeric reference or an intrinsic reference. Have a closer look at production 9: [9] EntityValue ::= '"' ([^%&"] | PEReference | Reference)* '"' | "'" ([^%&'] | PEReference | Reference)* "'" Which _does_ say that you can't have a raw '&' in an entity value etc. That's what the excslusion syntax means. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 02:44:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:49 2004 Subject: Thread-safe SAX parsing (was Re: Java based XML parsers for server use.) References: <00ca01be9816$14e420f0$4526578b@ops.3com.com> <14130.52740.240367.323083@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37362BA2.6073E818@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > > * mads@pacbell.net > > | > > | Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server > > | side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that > > | should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to > > | use the parser simultaneously. By the way "conventional wisdom" for multithreaded programming is that sharing data structures is to be avoided as a default assumption. Synchronizing kills performance, and confuses most programmers; so there's little win in sharing data when it's not absolutely required. That is, the conventional way to be "Thread Safe" is _not_ to have threads sharing a parser. Instead, each thread would have its own parser object -- which makes sense, parsers are quite cheap and you want to be able to have multiple threads _parsing concurrently_ (vs. just parsing sequentially). Another way to put this: the parser "class" is reentrant, but any given parser instance would typically be used by only one thread at a time. > > [ example deleted ] > > ====================8<====================8<==================== > > Although I am far from an expert in concurrent programming, my feeble > brain thinks that this should work provided that the following > conditions hold true: > > 1. the implementor of the original parser doesn't use static variables > to store parse information -- in other words, the parser is > reentrant (they all should be: anyone competent enough to write an > XML parser in the first place would probably write a reentrant > one); and Right, essentially every class should be reentrant unless explicitly documented otherwise. However, I certainly wouldn't expect a given _parser object_ to be reentrant from the application point of view. If a callback decides to parse a new document, it should do so using some other parser rather than expect the parser to keep track of two concurrent parses from the same thread! > 2. no two instantiations of the parser use the same Reader or > InputStream instantiation (that would be dumb anyway). That doesn't quite do it. Consider what happens when two threads try to use the same parser object concurrently (contrary to my advice above, that they should have their own parser object): THREAD 1 THREAD 2 parser.setDocumentHandler (H1); parser.setDocumentHandler (H2); parser.parse (doc1); parser.parse (doc2); What happens there is that handler H2 gets two streams of parse events, and handler H1 gets none. Depending on how things get scheduled, either Doc1 or Doc2 could get parsed first. > Once the parse begins, the SAX parser itself controls flow of > processing, so I cannot imagine how another thread could mess up the > actual parsing (there's no way to change the parser's state externally > once it begins parsing). To be perfectly safe, you could always > synchronize on the InputSource and/or the InputStream/Reader that you > are using. > > Perhaps people with more experience in Java concurrent programming can > take (friendly) shots at this suggestion. See above ... :-) If you want two threads to share a parser, you'll have to agree on rules for how they do so. While that's something I'd discourage, you could do it with any SAX parser (no "safe" wrapper necessary) like this: // the ONLY use of the parser that each thread makes // would be inside this synchronized() block !! synchronized (parser) { parser.setLocale (locale); parser.setDocumentHandler (handler); ... parser.parse (input); } There are parsers out there which don't work correctly like that, since they don't parse more than one document (bug!!) but if that's really the desired mode of operation, and you've got a parser which truly conforms to the SAX specificaiton, that's how to do it. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr Mon May 10 10:38:56 1999 From: mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr (Mi-Jeong Koo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Locale Example for SAX(Sun's XML parser) Message-ID: <37369BA9.A0F8FB47@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Hi~ I'm a Korean and developing a project using the 'Project X'. I'm trying to process tag names written in Korean characters but I have some problem. Can I get some example codes about locale? Thank you. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon May 10 13:53:13 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Locale Example for SAX(Sun's XML parser) In-Reply-To: <37369BA9.A0F8FB47@kistmail.kist.re.kr> References: <37369BA9.A0F8FB47@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Message-ID: * Mi-Jeong Koo | | I'm a Korean and developing a project using the 'Project X'. | I'm trying to process tag names written in Korean characters but I have | some problem. | Can I get some example codes about locale? The SAX Locale shouldn't affect things like that. Which characters are allowed in element type names is written is defined in the XML recommendation and parsers just have to follow that. The Locale is more intended for things like localized error messages and so on. So I would suggest that you look in the XML recommendation to see which characters you're allowed to use and then either file a bug report, switch parser and/or change to using legal characters. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon May 10 14:48:35 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Xml.com Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18A3@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Is it just me that thinks it's ironically amusing that xml.com's web pages don't validate against the HTML 4 Transitional DTD... must be just me... ;-) (struggling to view xml.com's web pages in Netscape on Linux...) Matt. -- http://come.to/fastnet Perl, XML, ASP, Database, mod_perl, High Performance Solutions perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-: ,hacker Perl another Just)' It's Matt. My name is Matt... See http://sergeant.org/notmatthew.txt xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Mon May 10 15:11:42 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux In-Reply-To: <199905072257.SAA00828@camel> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990510090754.0078ae98@tiac.net> Interesting article. The speed increase you saw as the Java parser ate bigger documents was probably due to the JIT compiler, dontchathink? I wonder what would happen if you compiled the JIT down to machine code, rather than p-code (like you can with Symantec's tools on x86). It'd then be interesting to see how the Java implementation compares to the C ones. I also wonder how much of the Perl time is spent starting the interpreter. Since the primary use of Perl to munch XML is going to be in a web server environment, I would expect it to be done using a technique like the .PLX thing my sysadmin guy did on our NT machine (I don't know exactly how that worked, but it somehow eliminated lots of process startup time and made all our Perl scripts run much, much faster). -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de Mon May 10 15:57:09 1999 From: shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de (Robb Shecter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Linux References: <3.0.1.32.19990510090754.0078ae98@tiac.net> Message-ID: <3736E55A.37175CD7@darmstadt.gmd.de> "Joshua E. Smith" wrote: > The speed increase you saw... Hmm... I read the article and checked out the perl script: It looks to me like there's a problem with how the test was conducted. Maybe I don't understand what's going on, but this looks obvious: The tests were apparently done with the unix "time" command, by shelling out, and starting a new process for each document. This means that the interpreter-based languages get hit with two disadvantages: 1) They're penalized for VM startup and shutdown times. 2) After parsing a document, all loaded objects, references, and knowledge gained are thrown away, and can't be used for the next document. To me, this is a valid issue because the test environment wasn't a good approximation of real-world use: The test most closely modeled a CGI environment, which is a dying programming style. My guess is that if the test more closely modelled real-world use: a server that, in its lifetime, parses many documents, then the results may not have been so exagerated. I'm thinking of something like Servlets in the Java world, mod_perl in the Perl world, etc. The interpreters would still have lost, but maybe it wouldn't have been so extreme. - Robb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 16:46:20 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Locale Example for SAX(Sun's XML parser) References: <37369BA9.A0F8FB47@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Message-ID: <3736F0D3.96FC79B8@pacbell.net> Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > > * Mi-Jeong Koo > | > | I'm a Korean and developing a project using the 'Project X'. > | I'm trying to process tag names written in Korean characters but I have > | some problem. > | Can I get some example codes about locale? > > The SAX Locale shouldn't affect things like that. Which characters are > allowed in element type names is written is defined in the XML > recommendation and parsers just have to follow that. > > The Locale is more intended for things like localized error messages > and so on. And since Sun doesn't provide a resource with Korean localizations (a com/sun/xml/parser/resources/Messages_ko.java file), if you set the Korean locale for diagnostics you'll just see the message IDs rather than diagnostics in Korean. (You have source, and could provide such a resource file if you like.) > So I would suggest that you look in the XML recommendation to see > which characters you're allowed to use and then either file a bug > report, switch parser and/or change to using legal characters. The usual problems I've seen relate to character encodings. If you don't use UTF-8 or UTF-16 (not many editors do, yet :-) then you must declare the encoding at the beginning of each file, perhaps something like or "ISO-2022-KR" etc. (Perhaps "cp949", for a PC-oriented encoding?) The official list of encoding name supported by Java is linked through the package docs for the parser, at http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.2/docs/guide/internat/encoding.doc.html One problem you may have is that some of the standard encoding names are not recognized, even for encodings which _are_ supported. A bug has been filed against the Java i18n support, but I don't know when the more standard names will get better support. So if the standard encoding names don't work, use the ones listed in the URL above. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 10 17:07:02 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: "Geek Cruises" include XML Component Message-ID: <14134.62887.690989.554150@localhost.localdomain> Take a look: http://www.geekcruises.com/ All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From kandikattu at yahoo.com Mon May 10 17:39:53 1999 From: kandikattu at yahoo.com (Srinivas Kandikattu) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Good XML Book Message-ID: <19990510154046.25756.rocketmail@web113.yahoomail.com> Hi, Can some of you suggest to me what is a good XML Book for beginners and Intermediate. I am just starting to lean XML. regards Srini === -- Srinivas Kandikattu (650) 574-4000 x5023 (W) kandikattu@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 10 17:41:17 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: "Geek Cruises" include XML Component Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990510082925.009de100@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:06 AM 5/10/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Take a look: > > http://www.geekcruises.com/ Don't forget to follow the "future cruises" link. How 'bout a SAX cruise? -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 10 18:44:59 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Thread-safe SAX parsing (was Re: Java based XML parsers for server use.) Message-ID: <8725676D.005BE0F9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> > > * mads@pacbell.net > > | > > | Are there any Java based XML parsers that are suitable for server > > | side use? One of the primary requirements for such a parser is that > > | should be thread safe. i.e.., more than one thread should be able to > > | use the parser simultaneously. > > > > I have to confess that I haven't looked at this aspect of parsers > > [snip] > >You could start with this: > [snip] >Once the parse begins, the SAX parser itself controls flow of >processing, so I cannot imagine how another thread could mess up the >actual parsing (there's no way to change the parser's state externally >once it begins parsing). To be perfectly safe, you could always >synchronize on the InputSource and/or the InputStream/Reader that you >are using. > >Perhaps people with more experience in Java concurrent programming can >take (friendly) shots at this suggestion. > We take the approach that thread safety, at least from the perspective of parsing, should be at the actual parser/scanner instance level. So, you cannot have two threads using the same parser, but you can have as many threads as you want, each with its own parser. This makes the system almost totally synchronization free, so its fast and cheap. There are a few static data bits, but they are generally read only once initialized, so there is really little to no synchronization required. But that's just for parsing. The events that come out of the scanner/parser are in the context of that one thread that is running that parse, so that is no problem as well as long as the recipient handles any synchronization on the target data structures. DOM of course is a another specification of worms and has its own issues. It would often be the case that multiple threads would be in a DOM structure all at the same time, so it generally has to be overly synchronized and more granular level (i.e. it costs whether you are using it or not.) >From a server's perspective though, the 'thread per parser' scenario seems optimal. It would basically equate to a 'thread per served client', which also is very common and useful. In that kind of situation, there would be very little synchronization required as relates to the XML parser. We don't forsee any useful reason, that's worth the gotchas it raises for everyone else, to have multiple threads in a single parser at a time. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 10 18:47:43 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. Message-ID: <8725676D.005C1C14.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> > According to IBM's alphaworks discussion group, their XML4J parser is > NOT thread safe. Not sure about other parsers. > > Any pointers are appreciated. See my other response on the related thread. We have chosen what we consider the correct level of granularity for thread safety, which is at the per-parser level. I'm discussing the 2.x versions here, Java and C++ are the same in this respect. We see little use in having multiple threads in a single parser. It is more appropriate to have a parser per-thread. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 10 19:18:42 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. In-Reply-To: <8725676D.005C1C14.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> References: <8725676D.005C1C14.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <14135.5059.855744.655517@localhost.localdomain> roddey@us.ibm.com writes: > See my other response on the related thread. We have chosen what we > consider the correct level of granularity for thread safety, which > is at the per-parser level. I'm discussing the 2.x versions here, > Java and C++ are the same in this respect. We see little use in > having multiple threads in a single parser. It is more appropriate > to have a parser per-thread. The point here, I suspect, is not that it is not a good idea to have multiple threads inside the same parser, but that it is not a good idea to use the same parser in multiple threads outside of it. I can imagine a parser some day running several internal threads on a multiprocessor machine -- one, perhaps, for I/O, one for tokenisation, one for structure recognition, and one for schema-based validation. I don't know if I'd bother doing this right now, since single-threaded parsers are so fast anyway, but who knows what tomorrows technology and business requirements will be? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jlangdon at copeland.com Mon May 10 19:23:07 1999 From: jlangdon at copeland.com (Jeff Langdon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Good XML Book Message-ID: <8525676D.005F3068.00@mail.copeland.com> I found XML in Action Web Technology William J. Pardi from Microsoft Press ISBN 0-7356-0562-9 to be very helpful I have read XML IE5 Alex Homer Wrox Books ISBN 1-861001-57-6 XML By Example Sean McGrath (Goldfarb Series) ISBN 0-13-960162-7 XML Extensible Markup Language Elliotte Rusty Harold ISBN 0-7645-3199-9 They are all very good books, but they were initially all a little over my head until I read the book from Pardi. Incidentally, I am not a programmer. Jeff Langdon Senior Web Developer The Copeland Companies Srinivas Kandikattu on 05/10/99 11:40:46 AM Please respond to Srinivas Kandikattu To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Jeff Langdon/IT/The Copeland Companies) Subject: Good XML Book Hi, Can some of you suggest to me what is a good XML Book for beginners and Intermediate. I am just starting to lean XML. regards Srini === -- Srinivas Kandikattu (650) 574-4000 x5023 (W) kandikattu@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 10 19:29:13 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal Message-ID: <8725676D.005FEB88.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >> In this one, there is definitely an ampersand in an entity literal which is not >> part of a numeric character reference or an intrinsic character reference. The >> spec does not seem to day "No raw & in an entity value unless its a numeric ref >> or intrinsic ref, or some other reference that's just left unexpanded", right? >> It just says that there can be no ampersands in an entity value unless its part >> of a numeric reference or an intrinsic reference. > >Have a closer look at production 9: > > [9] EntityValue ::= > '"' ([^%&"] | PEReference | Reference)* '"' | > "'" ([^%&'] | PEReference | Reference)* "'" > >Which _does_ say that you can't have a raw '&' in an entity value etc. >That's what the excslusion syntax means. So its like you have to parse the entity value and, if you find an ampersand, you have to parse it like an entity reference. If it happens to be either a numeric reference or the name happens to match one of the intrinsic entity names, then you should expand that and escape the character it generates? Otherwise, if it happens to look like a reasonable entity reference, I guess you are supposed to ignore it and just pass it through as is? If it does not look like a reasonable entity reference, then you give an error? What about this scenario? In this scenario, the entity is an encoded value of some sort, which just happens to start with an ampersand and end with a semi-colon. It has no illegal name chars in it and no spaces. You are supposed to buffer up all of that text, and if it happens to end with a semicolon, assume that it is a legal reference and pass it through? Yes I know that the ampersands should have been escaped technically, but how many parsers would blow up in this situation trying to buffer up that much text? How would the end user of that text figure out again where the escaped ampersands are in the text since its basically a totally meaningless sequence of characters to begin with? I know that these are pathological cases, but I just want to make sure that I understand what's required and that everyone has throught it through before I commit (yet again) to writing this part of the code, since I obviously flubbed it slightly the first time around. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 10 19:40:23 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: New schema spec Message-ID: <8725676D.0060F1A1.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> I am interested in some comments on the new Schema spec. In particular, what are people's thoughts about the fact that the AND connector has been reintroduced and that SEQ,ALT,AND blocks now support an optional min/max repetition count? Is there any way that such a system could be reasonably confirmed to be non-ambigious (and by reasonable I mean very fast and small amount of code.) And, given that, is there any way that it could be validated against in some less than exhaustive search way? The scenarios that scare me are say you have a node that can take 1 to 5 of some complex scenario, and each of those did similar things. How can you guarantee that if you only ate 2 of the top level that something down stream would not have matched better? Or if you ate only one at any one level that that wouldn't be a suboptimal match than if you had eat 3 of them? I'd be interested to hear from some our more pointy headed breathren (just kidding of course :-) about the theoretical implications of such a system. It seems obvious that DFAs, and the very fast and compact mechanisms they represent, would go out the door immediately, right? And that would remain true even if the AND connector was left out. Just the m to n repetition system means that DFAs wouldn't work anymore right? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Zev.Khazanovich at tfn.com Mon May 10 20:17:03 1999 From: Zev.Khazanovich at tfn.com (Khazanovich, Zev) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: Good XML Book Message-ID: <6B3564D8EF82D2118D9B00E029273BCD1BFD64@tfsmamsg4.tfn.com> I would recommend "The XML Companion" by Neil Bradley Published by Addison-Wesley ISBN: 0-201-34285-5 This is an excellent book for beginners. It covers such topics as XML,DTD,XLL,CSS,XSL,SAX,DOM,RDF And provides explanations and examples in a very clear language; an important quality, which, in my opinion, is missing in most XML books. -Zev -----Original Message----- From: Srinivas Kandikattu [mailto:kandikattu@yahoo.com] Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 11:41 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Good XML Book Hi, Can some of you suggest to me what is a good XML Book for beginners and Intermediate. I am just starting to lean XML. regards Srini === -- Srinivas Kandikattu (650) 574-4000 x5023 (W) kandikattu@yahoo.com _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Mon May 10 20:43:55 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:50 2004 Subject: "Geek Cruises" include XML Component Message-ID: Wow... I wonder if I can get my company to spring for that... (yeah, right....) >=P <---The look I will get when I submit the paperwork for it Have fun, -Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com] > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 10:40 AM > To: David Megginson; XML Developers' List > Subject: Re: "Geek Cruises" include XML Component > > At 11:06 AM 5/10/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >Take a look: > > > > http://www.geekcruises.com/ > > Don't forget to follow the "future cruises" link. How 'bout a > SAX cruise? -T. > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Mon May 10 20:47:40 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Good XML Book Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F25524A@MDYNYCMSX1> www.xmlbooks.com has a pretty long list. Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii -------------------------------------- Srinivas Kandikattu on 05/10/99 11:40:46 AM Please respond to Srinivas Kandikattu To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk cc: (bcc: Jeff Langdon/IT/The Copeland Companies) Subject: Good XML Book Hi, Can some of you suggest to me what is a good XML Book for beginners and Intermediate. I am just starting to lean XML. regards Srini === -- Srinivas Kandikattu (650) 574-4000 x5023 (W) kandikattu@yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Mon May 10 20:54:22 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: How to access the DTD? Message-ID: <01BE9AF4.0362FFF0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> I'm writing a Visual Basic application that needs to access all the information in a user-specified DTD. I'm looking for a validating XML parser that can be invoked via COM and that provides access to the DTD. Any ideas? It would be great if the Microsoft XML Parser provided access to the DTD, but it does not. I know there are some validating XML parsers that are written in Java and that provide access to the DTD. My VB app could access one of these parsers via COM. However, not all of my users will have a Java Virtual Machine on their PCs. My VB app could invoke James Clark's SP parser (written in C++) via COM. However, I suspect that this would be difficult for me to do, since I don't know C++. I am familiar with C. Thanks. Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon May 10 21:26:06 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: New schema spec Message-ID: <003001be9b12$e95b1650$3ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: roddey@us.ibm.com >I am interested in some comments on the new Schema spec. In particular, what are >people's thoughts about the fact that the AND connector has been reintroduced >and that SEQ,ALT,AND blocks now support an optional min/max repetition count? Excellent things. XML was right to simplify SGML and get rid of & and exceptions. I hope XSchema will reintroduce both of them, and more. >Just the m to n repetition system means that DFAs wouldn't work anymore right n{2 to 5} can be replaced by (n, n, (n, (n, (n)?)?)?) (n, m){2,5} can be replaced by ((n,m), (n,m), (n,m, (n,m (n,m)?)?)?) (n|m){2,5} can be replaced by ((n|m), (n|m), (n, ((n, (n|m)) | (m, (n|m)))) | (m, (n, (n|m)) | (m, (n|m)))) (n&m){2 to 5} can be replaced by ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), ((n, m)| (m,n)), ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), ((n, m)| (m,n))?)?)? ) What would upset things is if (n&m){2 to 5} could be satisfied by the input n n n n n m m m m m Also, content models such as (n?, m?){2 to 5} are ambiguous, but so would (n?, m?)* or (n?, m?)+ Rick Jelliffe P.S. Am I the only one freaking out that the current Schema draft is not compatible with XML 1.0? It introduces a new class "nearly well-formed" which is not WF: thus all current XML processors will treat these documents in error. This is a terrible excercise in backwards incompatability--all existing XML processors will be incompatible: the only reason they have this class is because they try to cram into the Schema spec some way to declare entities (I thought that XLink was our way to improve entities: now we have 3 ways to do them...Yikes). It reduces XSchema's credibility a lot--it makes it look like there is a petty dislike of XML's markup declaration syntax which was so strong that it overweighed the requirement to conform to XML 1.0 WF rules. P.P.S. The archetype and datatype parts of the Schema proposal are excellent, IMHO. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 21:34:16 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal References: <8725676D.005FEB88.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <37373458.E0A296EF@pacbell.net> > >Have a closer look at production 9: > > > > [9] EntityValue ::= > > '"' ([^%&"] | PEReference | Reference)* '"' | > > "'" ([^%&'] | PEReference | Reference)* "'" > > > >Which _does_ say that you can't have a raw '&' in an entity value etc. > >That's what the excslusion syntax means. > > So its like you have to parse the entity value and, if you find an ampersand, > you have to parse it like an entity reference. If it happens to be either a > numeric reference or the name happens to match one of the intrinsic entity > names, then you should expand that and escape the character it generates? See section 4.5 on how the replacement text for an entity value is defined; there's no special case for general entities that happen to be built-in. Also see appendix D for more elaboration of how the rules in that section interact with the entity expansion rules in section 4.4 ... Briefly, entity references will get expanded eventually, just not at the time the entity's replacement text is constructed. (It is not possible to do the expansions then, since the general entities aren't required to be defined at that time!) > Otherwise, if it happens to look like a reasonable entity reference, I guess you > are supposed to ignore it and just pass it through as is? If it does not look > like a reasonable entity reference, then you give an error? Again, see section 4.5 (etc) which is pretty clear about this. Try running your parser through a conformance test suite -- e.g. James Clark's XMLTEST and Sun's (which incorporates some examples from the XML spec, avoiding any issues about interpretation). > What about this scenario? > > encrypted piece of text];"> > > In this scenario, the entity is an encoded value of some sort, which just > happens to start with an ampersand and end with a semi-colon. It has no illegal > name chars in it and no spaces. You are supposed to buffer up all of that text, > and if it happens to end with a semicolon, assume that it is a legal reference > and pass it through? Absolutely. If that assumption is untrue, it's the fault of whoever provided that illegal entity declaration. > Yes I know that the ampersands should have been escaped technically, but how > many parsers would blow up in this situation trying to buffer up that much text? Curiously, not Sun's parser. The XML specification places no limitations on the size of XML names; that wasn't the (single) place I found it convenient to impose such a limitation. (I forget whether I removed that limitation in the next version of the parser.) > How would the end user of that text figure out again where the escaped > ampersands are in the text since its basically a totally meaningless sequence of > characters to begin with? I don't understand the question. Are you perhaps assuming that the replacement text is not going to have such entity references expanded at the proper time? (Namely, when the entity, "Foo" in the example above, is referenced.) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 10 21:52:02 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: New schema spec References: <003001be9b12$e95b1650$3ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <373739E6.C8E5D925@locke.ccil.org> Rick Jelliffe wrote: > P.S. Am I the only one freaking out that the current Schema draft is not > compatible with XML 1.0? It introduces a new class "nearly well-formed" > which is not WF: thus all current XML processors will treat these > documents in error. You are not. I am preparing a blast which will shred this nonsense once and for all ^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W well-reasoned comment explaining to the Schema WG the error of their ways. I'll post it here when done as well as to the official comments list. > This is a terrible excercise in backwards > incompatability--all existing XML processors will be incompatible: the > only reason they have this class is because they try to cram into the > Schema spec some way to declare entities (I thought that XLink was our > way to improve entities: now we have 3 ways to do them...Yikes). It > reduces XSchema's credibility a lot--it makes it look like there is a > petty dislike of XML's markup declaration syntax which was so strong > that it overweighed the requirement to conform to XML 1.0 WF rules. Furthermore, it means that a document as read by a 1.0-compliant read-all-entities non-validating parser may have different *content* from one read by a schema-reading non-schema-validating parser, if both external DTD and schema are specified, and they have different definitions for the same entities. XLink fully displaces entities only if the "data:" URL scheme (RFC 2397) is widely supported; this is the URL equivalent of internal entities. (More accurately, it allows external entities that are represented internally.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 21:52:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Java based XML parsers for server use. References: <8725676D.005C1C14.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <14135.5059.855744.655517@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <373738AF.977E569E@pacbell.net> > > See my other response on the related thread. We have chosen what we > > consider the correct level of granularity for thread safety, which > > is at the per-parser level. In fact, many of us long ago concluded that the term "thread safe" was so ambiguous as to be confusing. There are different levels of safety, and then there's also being "multithread-hot" in some applications. > The point here, I suspect, is not that it is not a good idea to have > multiple threads inside the same parser, but that it is not a good > idea to use the same parser in multiple threads outside of it. I confess to having parsing problems with that sentence ... what's the antecedent to that last "it" ? :-) > I can imagine a parser some day running several internal threads on a > multiprocessor machine -- one, perhaps, for I/O, one for tokenisation, > one for structure recognition, and one for schema-based validation. I > don't know if I'd bother doing this right now, since single-threaded > parsers are so fast anyway, but who knows what tomorrows technology > and business requirements will be? Surely not me! But parsing isn't normally thought of as something that's naturally parallel. I think that it's the higher level tasks (perhaps driven by application-specific schemas) that will be the places where "multithread-hot" applications start to kick in. That gets again to those rules of thumb I alluded to earlier: first, that synchronization is confusing and not free, so avoid it; second, in consequence, only do synchroniziation (concurrent operations) at a relatively coarse grain, where there's a significant win! That's often higher up in the application stack (e.g. N clients working at the same time) than it is low down in that stack. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Mon May 10 21:57:57 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Good XML Book References: <6B3564D8EF82D2118D9B00E029273BCD1BFD64@tfsmamsg4.tfn.com> Message-ID: <373739B7.A5F8C1C5@pacbell.net> "Khazanovich, Zev" wrote: > > I would recommend > "The XML Companion" by Neil Bradley > Published by Addison-Wesley > ISBN: 0-201-34285-5 > > This is an excellent book for beginners. > It covers such topics as XML,DTD,XLL,CSS,XSL,SAX,DOM,RDF > And provides explanations and examples in a very > clear language; an important quality, which, in my opinion, is > missing in most XML books. I know a lot of folk who liked this one in particular, since it was relatively concise and free of fluff. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 10 23:03:31 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: New schema spec References: <8725676D.0060F1A1.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <37373E1E.288173A7@prescod.net> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > > Is > there any way that such a system could be reasonably confirmed to be > non-ambigious (and by reasonable I mean very fast and small amount of code.) > And, given that, is there any way that it could be validated against in some > less than exhaustive search way? I haven't been completely through the schema spec yet, but let me ask you two questions: what definition of ambiguity are you using and why do you care? XML DTDs explicitly allow ambiguity in content models so why wouldn't schemas? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 10 23:21:57 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities Message-ID: <37373E75.1B85E066@prescod.net> I am disappointed that the schema working group decided to extend SGML and XML's conflation of resource provision (entities) and document structure constraints. I would be glad to work on an XML instance-syntax resource provision specification if it would help you to split it off. I am already experimenting in that direction. I am not the first to point out that allowing parsed entities to be specified in a schema is violently incompatible with XML 1.0's notion of well-formedness. Even were that not the case it seems clear to me that validating a document and *completing it* are two different steps. Preumably the document's structure should be complete before validation begins. Surely now is the right time to correct this 13 year old mistake! -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From grifmike at tinet.ie Mon May 10 23:57:20 1999 From: grifmike at tinet.ie (grifmike) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: XML and EDIFACT Message-ID: <373755F4.E87F9EE9@tinet.ie> I just wanted to ask if anyone has any info or experience developing an XML (DTD) to interface with EDIFACT? I have just begun work in this area and if someone has any personal knowledge/insight in this area it would be appreciated!! Michael Griffin, National University of Ireland, Galway. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 11 00:20:09 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur Message-ID: <37374D64.36D5FE1A@prescod.net> I dispute the usefulness of minOccur and maxOccur. I would like to hear about where people would use these features. I find that people often want them but can find a clearer way of expressing their document type when they are not available. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Tue May 11 00:40:24 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? In-Reply-To: <01BE9AF4.0362FFF0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> A problem that comes up in running My.UserLand.Com is a sysop moving their RSS file to another location or server. We're allowing people other than the author of the file to do registrations. I think this is important. If RSS catches on and there are other registration servers, we will want *users* of the site to be able to tell our server about a RSS file. However, we want to enable webmasters to be able to move a file to a different directory or server. In the real world, this happens often enough that we want to have a general solution. What I'd like to say is that the webmaster should change the old file to "redirect" to the new file. Something like this: http://www.fool.com/directory/file.xml Then when we read the file we'd check for a redirect and update the services table, which in turn would update services.xml automatically. This uses the webmaster's security to assure that we're pointing to the right place, gives them full control, and also allows users of the site to do the registration. Is there any provision in the XML specs for redirecting in this manner or a similar one? Dave Winer UserLand Software xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Tue May 11 00:52:39 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal In-Reply-To: roddey@us.ibm.com's message of Mon, 10 May 1999 11:27:39 -0600 Message-ID: <15984.199905102252@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > Yes I know that the ampersands should have been escaped technically, Why "technically"? If it wasn't meant to be an entity reference, the document is just plain wrong. If it *is* meant to be an entity reference, why is it any stranger than, say, <[128K of name characters]/> or any of the other places where a name occurs? > but how many parsers would blow up in this situation trying to > buffer up that much text? It's tempting to use fixed-size buffers for such things, but when I've done that in the past it's usually turned out to be a mistake. Have you found parsers that "blow up" in this case? Of course, an implementation is perfectly free to warn about absurdly long names. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue May 11 01:12:05 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities In-Reply-To: <37373E75.1B85E066@prescod.net> Message-ID: <199905102311.TAA01044@hesketh.net> At 03:15 PM 5/10/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >I am disappointed that the schema working group decided to extend SGML and >XML's conflation of resource provision (entities) and document structure >constraints. I would be glad to work on an XML instance-syntax resource >provision specification if it would help you to split it off. I am already >experimenting in that direction. I agree with Paul 100% on this one. For precisely this reason, DDML remained entity free for a very long time (though I got outvoted on unparsed entities in the end.) In my more recent project, XML Processing Description Language (XPDL), I've separated constraints, entities, and attribute defaulting, and will be adding notations to that list, from my list of parts. (See http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xpdl for details on XPDL.) Do we really need to specify content in the same place as constraints? I really hope not. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From whump at onradio.com Tue May 11 01:24:10 1999 From: whump at onradio.com (Bill Humphries) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <002301be9b3c$480b5d80$8879b9d1@ariel.onradio.com> I think this is something better handled by the server than the XML. In the Apache framework, that would be to put a Redirect directive in one of the server's configuration files. In the Frontier framework, a responder could send the Location: http://newsserver/path/to/rss/file header. On a related topic, isn't someone working on XMLizing Linux configuration, or was that just something I saw in someone's slides at a talk somewhere... ----- Bill Humphries , Software Engineer Onradio.com, Scotts Valley, CA 1 813 440 0300 x182 "The more you know, the more jokes you get." -- unknown > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Dave Winer > However, we want to enable webmasters to be able to move a file to a > different directory or server. In the real world, this happens > often enough > that we want to have a general solution. > > What I'd like to say is that the webmaster should change the old file to > "redirect" to the new file. > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jelks at jelks.nu Tue May 11 01:32:45 1999 From: jelks at jelks.nu (Jelks Cabaniss) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:51 2004 Subject: "Geek Cruises" include XML Component In-Reply-To: <14134.62887.690989.554150@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: > http://www.geekcruises.com/ Interested. It *will* have live satellite broadband feeds of xml-dev available, right? /Jelks xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 11 01:33:18 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Mixed content considered harmful... Message-ID: <37375E61.42B0CA2F@prescod.net> XML Schema Part 1 seems to import a mistake from SGML and XML. This is the idea that content models must either be text-containing, "mixed" or element containing and that the former sort of model must not constrain the ordering of elements and text nodes. "A content model for mixed content provides for mixing elements with character data in document instances. The allowed element types are named, but neither their order or their number of occurrences are constrained." SGML had a separation between mixed and text-containing nodes but it did not have this constraint that it not be possible to constrain the order and occurence of text nodes and element nodes. #PCDATA was just a token and you could use it where you wanted. What it did have was a massive bug in its parsing algorithm that made these "constrained" mixed content models impossible to use. The bug had nothing to do with validation -- it was a parser problem. There sprung up a superstition that these mixed content models were evil when the truth is that the particular bug in SGML was the real problem. Before it was clear that we could change SGML, XML adopted a ridiculously confusing rule about the use of mixed content. It didn't occur to me (or probably anyone else) that it would have been better to just fix the bug. We probably didn't know at that point that we had that option. Now this rule has been imported into XML Schema. The rule is even more out of place in XML schema than it was in XML itself. Then we had the opportunity to fix the bug. Today the bug is not even relevant -- XML schema works on the result of the parse....it does not influence the parse. #PCDATA is just a data type that is unconstrained. You should be able to mix data type refs, #PCDATA and element type refs in content models with impunity (barring real parsing ambiguity). Using old syntax: You can handle any of these with wrappers but I claim that the instinct to wrap these things arises more from exposure to the superstition than from fundamental design considerations. We can make XSchema more uniform by removing the concept of "mixed content" and by introducing a PCDATA content token type. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 11 01:46:28 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <000c01be9b3f$7ceb6880$4d27fea9@w21tp> Dave, This is usually done using the HTTP redirect feature. Another way to do it is to use public identifiers. Best, Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srnm at yahoo.com Tue May 11 03:08:00 1999 From: srnm at yahoo.com (Steven Marcus) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris Message-ID: <19990511010756.29212.rocketmail@web109.yahoomail.com> The article at http://www.xml.com/xml/pub/Benchmark/article.html made me curious as to whether Java on Solaris would fair any better. The results are at: http://www.awaretechnologies.com/XML/xmlbench/solaris.html In case you don't want to follow the link: 1. Java is faster than Perl/Python for _all_ test cases 2. expat still wins (surprise!) -Steven Marcus _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 11 05:27:18 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <37376352.5490C66@prescod.net> Dave Winer wrote: > > What I'd like to say is that the webmaster should change the old file to > "redirect" to the new file. > > Something like this: > > > http://www.fool.com/directory/file.xml > > ... > > Is there any provision in the XML specs for redirecting in this manner or a > similar one? No, but I think that there should be. Existing mechanisms are server-specific and thus not open. You could use an XLink with "auto"/"replace" but the behavior of the XLink behavioral attributes are massively underspecified and downright dangerous. I hope that they are gone by the time the specification goes gold. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 11 06:18:46 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: PI target names Message-ID: <000a01be9b65$98d12c80$350cfea9@w21tp> Are there any efforts to organize processing instruction target names? PI target names are not affected by namespaces except losing colon as a legal character to fit in with XML 1.0 production rules. How should one go about naming processing instruction targets? Shouldn't we have some kind of guidelines like the way MIME types are defined? For example, it seems appropriate to use a processing instruction for solving Dave Winer's XML redirection problem. Yet I am clueless as to how it should be named to avoid conflict. looks right except I am using a rather common word as the target name and the problem grows if there is a need for more target names in the XML redirection proposal. There is also the problem of PI target names used in the SGML world. I think we should address this issue before it gets out of control. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue May 11 06:51:38 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: PI target names References: <000a01be9b65$98d12c80$350cfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <3737B73B.37CDBB17@pacbell.net> Don Park wrote: > > Are there any efforts to organize processing instruction target names? There's the suggestion in the XML spec that notations be used, e.g. ... would be equivalent to ... Now, I'm not sure I like that approach, but it does provide a clear way to associate a managed namespace with PI names. One problem with that approach: the W3C hasn't used it yet, it's been looking to reserve PI target names. Of course, there are also folk in the W3C on a jihad against PIs and other things which are not compatible with most HTML parsers, so I'm not sure that's the real issue. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue May 11 07:11:31 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <3737BBC0.786FE340@pacbell.net> HTTP supports both temporary and permanent redirection; pass the appropriate response status and a "Location:" header field, and the client reissues the request. I agree with the person who said that mechanism should be used ... it'll need to be supported anyway, no sense in having two client side mechanisms to implement and debug (one of which is already widely deployed). On the server side, there's the question of how to flag that such a redirection is needed. Different servers have different solutions for that, and I suspect you're trying to avoid needing to spend the effort in the server to see if it's needed. You implied there was structural logic that could be applied to speed things up; that's the approach I'd take, then! - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Tue May 11 07:23:21 1999 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris Message-ID: <01c301be9b6e$55756f60$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> >1. Java is faster than Perl/Python for _all_ test cases there are substantial variations in VM performance across vendor and OS; see: http://www.javaworld.com/jw-03-1999/jw-03-volanomark.html?022399ibd Also, for reasons that I can only attribute to laziness on the part of implementors, java VMs seem to take a ridiculous amount of time to start up. Beats me what they are doing. This is particularly striking given that java was first promulgated for browser applets. Judging from the level of discussion on various other lists I'm on, none of java, perl, or python were designed with lightweight, accurate, and meaningful profiling of their own run time built in. So people interested in improving performance are left pouring over the leavings of gprof. Confronted with that, one quickly concludes it isn't necessary work, because in the real world one is always waiting on network or disk anyway :). -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Tue May 11 07:45:21 1999 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris Message-ID: <01e701be9b71$6e928b60$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> btw, one thing that would be interesting to add would be the time to process a zero-size (or near-zero size) file. That would aid in giving gross estimates to the constant component of what is presumably a close-to-linear equation. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From reschke at medicaldataservice.de Tue May 11 08:00:06 1999 From: reschke at medicaldataservice.de (Julian Reschke) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur In-Reply-To: <37374D64.36D5FE1A@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000501be9b73$6b186de0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Paul Prescod > Sent: Monday, May 10, 1999 11:20 PM > To: www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org; xml-dev > Subject: minOccur, maxOccur > > > I dispute the usefulness of minOccur and maxOccur. I would like to hear > about where people would use these features. I find that people often want > them but can find a clearer way of expressing their document type when > they are not available. Interesting statemen. How about an example. How would you define a schema where can only contain and , each of which exactly one time? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 11 08:19:21 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> <3737BBC0.786FE340@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000f01be9b76$681e1240$350cfea9@w21tp> > On the server side, there's the question of how to flag that such > a redirection is needed. Different servers have different solutions > for that, and I suspect you're trying to avoid needing to spend > the effort in the server to see if it's needed. You implied there > was structural logic that could be applied to speed things up; > that's the approach I'd take, then! Actually, Dave Winer was talking about an old issue which is that most web sites consist of passive contents only. Most web sites are hosted by ISPs and contents are poured in using FTP. Active components such as scripts, CGI, or servlets are not available and changes to the server is not even dreamed of. This issue came up almost two years ago during a dinner (many Net folks were there although I can only remember Dr. Goldfarb and Dave Siegel) in context of XML. Our conclusion was that shrinkwrapped vertical website builder applications that generates XML contents will be coming soon to solve the most of the problem. I think we overestimated the rate of change because most of us saw the problem as a business opportunity. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 11 10:47:57 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: PI target names References: <000a01be9b65$98d12c80$350cfea9@w21tp> <3737B73B.37CDBB17@pacbell.net> <007301be9b84$0de4a830$04c2c6c3@phone.com> Message-ID: <000701be9b8b$2eeb8920$350cfea9@w21tp> > One can wonder why PIs were specified in the first place, if W3C doesn't > want anyone to use them. What I would like to know is WHY W3C does not want to encourage folks to use PI. Perhaps I'll agree with them once I hear all the arguments, perhaps not. I would like to know what the arguments are. If it is just compatibility with HTML browsers, I think it is wrong. As far as I am concerned, it takes only two engineers (one from Microsoft and one from Netscape) to make HTML browsers support PI. By the time XHTML becomes available for general use, we'll likely be looking at IE 6 and NS 6. Legacy browsers can be supported with patches. Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue May 11 10:57:40 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities Message-ID: <01BE9B9C.B90F1750@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Simon St. Laurent: > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. For precisely this reason, DDML > remained entity free for a very long time (though I got outvoted on > unparsed entities in the end.) As one of those who helped outvote Simon, I'd just like to say that I have completely recanted. Including unparsed entity definitions in DDML was a mistake and I now regret it. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From barsteng at 263.net Tue May 11 11:08:30 1999 From: barsteng at 263.net (barsteng@263.net) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: query info from database to xml Message-ID: <19990511074335.13512.fmail@263.net> Hello Xml-dev, Can anybody tell me that how to query info from database and construct the result to xml? There are some problems: 1.How to define the table's struct and the field's info?where can I find the standard? 2.How to represent the binary type of the field? Best regards, barsteng mailto:barsteng@126.com __________________________________________________ »¶Ó­Ê¹ÓÃÊ׶¼ÔÚÏßÃâ·Ñµç×ÓÓÊÏähttp://freemail.263.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From hvram at wipinfo.soft.net Tue May 11 11:24:40 1999 From: hvram at wipinfo.soft.net (Harihara Vinayakaram) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: IE5 brain damage Message-ID: <00d601be9b90$68b5e6a0$3a35a8c0@cream.wipinfo.soft.net> Select the document . Shift + Right - click should be able to give you an option of Open with . (even though you have associated this file type with something else) Hope this helps Regards Hari -----Original Message----- From: Elliotte Rusty Harold To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Date: Thursday, May 06, 1999 7:55 PM Subject: Re: IE5 brain damage >>If I understand you correctly it sounds like you need to change the program >>associated with your.xml files. > >Everyone has suggested changing the associations, buct that's not the >issue. I am aware of how to do that. The problem is that despite the >association with Textpad I should still be able to open an XML file in IE >and I can't. > >Think of it this way. By going to File->Open in Word, you can open a >WordPerfect document in Word even if WordPerfect is installed on the system >and registered to handle Wordperfect files. Now imagine that when you try >to open a WordPerfect file in Word, it instead launches WordPerfect and >opens the file in WordPerfect. That's more or less what's happening when I >try to read an XML file in IE5. The associations should affect what >program is launched when I double-click a file of a particular type. It >should not affect what happens when I specifically ask a particular program >to open a particular file. > > >+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ >| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | >+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ >| Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | >| http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | >| http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | >+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ >| Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | >| Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | >+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue May 11 11:29:12 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:52 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris In-Reply-To: <01c301be9b6e$55756f60$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> References: <01c301be9b6e$55756f60$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Message-ID: * Mark D. Anderson | | Judging from the level of discussion on various other lists I'm on, | none of java, perl, or python were designed with lightweight, | accurate, and meaningful profiling of their own run time built in. Python comes with a profiler that I've been using heavily to optimize xmlproc as much as possible. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Tue May 11 11:42:53 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? In-Reply-To: <000f01be9b76$681e1240$350cfea9@w21tp> References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> <3737BBC0.786FE340@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990511023700.01c59640@mail.userland.com> Yup you got it. Even if the hosting is done on site, the webmaster and sysadmin are often two different people. We'll just go with the approach, it makes sense in our application and probably will make sense to our users. For this app, btw, the channel developers (there are hundreds of them at all sizes and shapes of sites) are mostly webmasters not system operators. Dave At 11:20 PM 5/10/99 , Don Park wrote: > > On the server side, there's the question of how to flag that such > > a redirection is needed. Different servers have different solutions > > for that, and I suspect you're trying to avoid needing to spend > > the effort in the server to see if it's needed. You implied there > > was structural logic that could be applied to speed things up; > > that's the approach I'd take, then! > >Actually, Dave Winer was talking about an old issue which is that most web >sites consist of passive contents only. Most web sites are hosted by ISPs >and contents are poured in using FTP. Active components such as scripts, >CGI, or servlets are not available and changes to the server is not even >dreamed of. > >This issue came up almost two years ago during a dinner (many Net folks were >there although I can only remember Dr. Goldfarb and Dave Siegel) in context >of XML. Our conclusion was that shrinkwrapped vertical website builder >applications that generates XML contents will be coming soon to solve the >most of the problem. I think we overestimated the rate of change because >most of us saw the problem as a business opportunity. > >Best, > >Don Park >Docuverse > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jfallot at infovista.fr Tue May 11 11:56:06 1999 From: jfallot at infovista.fr (Jean-Francois Allot) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? Message-ID: I would like to describe User Interface elements (textfields with styles, frames, images, ...) in XML. I want to use a format which is technology and platform independent. Is there any Guidelines to follow ? I've heard about something started by Netscape and used in Gecko. What is your opinion about it ? Does anyone use XML to describe UI elements ? Thank you, Jean-Francois ALLOT InfoVista SA mailto:jfallot@infovista.com http://www.infovista.com tel: +33 (0)1 60 92 31 31 fax: +33 (0)1 60 92 31 39 France xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Tue May 11 12:29:06 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18AD@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Mozilla's XUL is what you're looking for. It uses xml to describe complex UI components such as toolbars, menus, etc, and HTML to describe anything that can be described in HTML. See http://www.mozilla.org - the easiest thing to do is download the current nightly build and play around with the XUL files in the res directory. Matt. -- http://come.to/fastnet Perl, XML, ASP, Database, mod_perl, High Performance Solutions perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-: ,hacker Perl another Just)' It's Matt. See http://sergeant.org/notmatthew.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: Jean-Francois Allot [SMTP:jfallot@infovista.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 11:03 AM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? > > > I would like to describe User Interface elements (textfields with styles, > frames, images, ...) in XML. > I want to use a format which is technology and platform independent. > > Is there any Guidelines to follow ? > > I've heard about something started by Netscape and used in Gecko. > What is your opinion about it ? > > Does anyone use XML to describe UI elements ? > > Thank you, > Jean-Francois ALLOT > InfoVista SA > mailto:jfallot@infovista.com > http://www.infovista.com > tel: +33 (0)1 60 92 31 31 > fax: +33 (0)1 60 92 31 39 > France > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 11 14:34:23 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14136.9017.866655.122336@localhost.localdomain> Jean-Francois Allot writes: > Does anyone use XML to describe UI elements ? I think that Gnome and Mozilla both do. You can poke around http://www.gnome.org/ and http://www.mozilla.org/ for details, or try some Altavista searches: +xml +host:gnome.org +xml +host:mozilla.org All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de Tue May 11 14:58:50 1999 From: shecter at darmstadt.gmd.de (Robb Shecter) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? References: <14136.9017.866655.122336@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37382930.D6F2952E@darmstadt.gmd.de> Hi, You might also want to check out: http://www.bluestone.com/xml/XwingML/ http://www.pierlou.com/prototype http://cs.nyu.edu/phd_students/fuchs/ - Robb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 16:43:10 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <199905102311.TAA01044@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <373842FF.E4A55127@locke.ccil.org> Simon St.Laurent wrote: > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. Simon, this isn't just meant for you, but for Paul and everybody. I hope you are protesting to www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org. I know that looks like a black hole, but it's the *only* chance of getting this bogosity stopped, due to a Procedural Blunder in the creation of the WD. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 16:43:36 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <3738431B.C5375A03@locke.ccil.org> Dave Winer wrote: > Something like this: > > > http://www.fool.com/directory/file.xml [snip] > Is there any provision in the XML specs for redirecting in this manner or a > similar one? Sort of. ]> &pyrzqxgl; Of course, you have to use a parser that handles external entities. Note that this won't handle redirection to redirections, because an external entity can't have its own DTD. But rolling your own isn't bad either. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Tue May 11 16:54:53 1999 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: RDF et IDL ? Message-ID: <199905111452.QAA18888@chimay.loria.fr> 1/ Could it be possible to do a mapping between an RDF schema specification and an IDL interface (a kind of rdftoidl) ? Looking for some information... 2/ Is someone using the DOM IDL specification within a real CORBA application ? Thanks, Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 17:25:20 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <01BE9B9C.B90F1750@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Message-ID: <37384CEA.792DF8F1@locke.ccil.org> Ronald Bourret wrote: > > I agree with Paul 100% on this one. For precisely this reason, DDML > > remained entity free for a very long time (though I got outvoted on > > unparsed entities in the end.) > > As one of those who helped outvote Simon, I'd just like to say that I have > completely recanted. Including unparsed entity definitions in DDML was a > mistake and I now regret it. I remain unreconstructed. If we are to have validatable ENTITY/ENTITIES attributes, then we must have unparsed entity declarations as well. Either lose both or keep both, say I. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue May 11 17:41:12 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> <3738431B.C5375A03@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <373846EA.624D04B3@jclark.com> John Cowan wrote: > > ]> > &pyrzqxgl; That's not actually well-formed. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue May 11 18:42:33 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris References: <01c301be9b6e$55756f60$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Message-ID: <37385DD1.79040236@pacbell.net> "Mark D. Anderson" wrote: > > >1. Java is faster than Perl/Python for _all_ test cases > > there are substantial variations in VM performance across > vendor and OS; see: > http://www.javaworld.com/jw-03-1999/jw-03-volanomark.html?022399ibd > > Also, for reasons that I can only attribute to laziness on > the part of implementors, java VMs seem to take a ridiculous > amount of time to start up. Beats me what they are doing. I suspect that nobody's ever placed aggressive tuning targets on the startup time. There's operating system overhead for setting up processes (including setting up shared libraries and intitializing data structures), and often some JIT costs (since JVMs don't yet cache JIT results AFAIK). That's not to disagree that startup costs shouldn't be cut, only to point out that there are reasons for them that don't have a thing to do with laziness. Many apps have startup times that are substantial, so they run faster when they're used. > Judging from the level of discussion on various other lists I'm > on, none of java, perl, or python were designed with lightweight, > accurate, and meaningful profiling of their own run time built in. Not so. With Java 2, check out "java -Xrunhprof:help" output to see the built in profiler. Works nicely on SPARC out of the box, but the Win32 version at one point needed a JIT update to get CPU profiling to work (by default it only does memory profiling). - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 19:16:35 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Redirecting XML files? References: <4.2.0.37.19990510153224.01ade250@mail.userland.com> <3738431B.C5375A03@locke.ccil.org> <373846EA.624D04B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <3738670A.F4B95102@locke.ccil.org> James Clark wrote: > > > > > > "http://www.fool.com/directory/file.xml">]> > > &pyrzqxgl; > > That's not actually well-formed. Foo, you are right. How annoyingly unsymmetrical. Anybody know why the root element can't be inside a general entity? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 11 19:18:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities In-Reply-To: <373842FF.E4A55127@locke.ccil.org> References: <199905102311.TAA01044@hesketh.net> <373842FF.E4A55127@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14136.25852.143612.741715@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > Simon, this isn't just meant for you, but for Paul and everybody. > I hope you are protesting to www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org. > I know that looks like a black hole, but it's the *only* chance > of getting this bogosity stopped, due to a Procedural Blunder > in the creation of the WD. Panic might be premature. Schemas are the bound to be the most controversial part of the new XML activity, and we should be grateful that the WG had the courage to put out a public snapshot of their current (and still incomplete) work rather than maintaining the W3C shroud of secrecy that has drawn so much criticism. My recommendation is to send brief, formal comments to www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org and more general discussion to XML-Dev. We can leave the horse heads out of the beds until we see what happens in the next WD. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Tue May 11 19:33:17 1999 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Benchmark of 6 XML parsers on Solaris Message-ID: <026001be9bd3$9d579500$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> >> Judging from the level of discussion on various other lists I'm >> on, none of java, perl, or python were designed with lightweight, >> accurate, and meaningful profiling of their own run time built in. > >Not so. With Java 2, check out "java -Xrunhprof:help" output to >see the built in profiler. Works nicely on SPARC out of the box, >but the Win32 version at one point needed a JIT update to get CPU >profiling to work (by default it only does memory profiling). All the languages I mentioned have profiling hooks for "end programmers" using the language, of varying usability and accuracy. That is different from the kind of profiling that language implementors need, which ideally would allow for easy delving into the behavior of the runtime (typically C functions) in addition to the language-level profiling. This would be complemented by things like VM instruction histogramming, and introspection into other counters (the moral equivalent of oracle's V$ tables). In the case of a proprietary language like java, this lack of public implementor tools is understandable, as such tools represent a competitive advantage for VM implementors. For example, the implementors of the microsoft VM and the implementors of the sun VM have each created completely different private interfaces for performance instrumentation of their own VMs. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue May 11 19:38:23 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: New schema spec Message-ID: <8725676E.0060C2F5.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >Excellent things. XML was right to simplify SGML and get rid of & and >exceptions. I hope XSchema will reintroduce both of them, and more. > Hmmm. But if schema becomes "thu way" that structural validation is done, then it won't be some optional part of XML. It will be basically a core part of XML, in very single implementation out there. So, if XML was right to leave it out to begin with, why is it a good thing to bring it back now? Have the reasons for having left it out changed? >>Just the m to n repetition system means that DFAs wouldn't work anymore right > >n{2 to 5} can be replaced by (n, n, (n, (n, (n)?)?)?) > >(n, m){2,5} can be replaced by ((n,m), (n,m), (n,m, (n,m (n,m)?)?)?) > >(n|m){2,5} can be replaced by > ((n|m), (n|m), (n, ((n, (n|m)) > | (m, (n|m)))) > | (m, (n, (n|m)) > | (m, (n|m)))) > >(n&m){2 to 5} can be replaced by > ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), > ((n, m)| (m,n)), > ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), ( ((n, m)| (m,n)), ((n, m)| (m,n))?)?)? ) > Well, that's true on the 'just thinking bout it' level. But is it practical? What if its n{20 to 1000} or something of that nature? That wouldn't be at all unreasonable from a user's standpoint, but what would be the practical implications for the data structures used during the creation of the DFA and the transition table itself? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue May 11 19:41:24 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal Message-ID: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >> Otherwise, if it happens to look like a reasonable entity reference, I guess you >> are supposed to ignore it and just pass it through as is? If it does not look >> like a reasonable entity reference, then you give an error? > >Again, see section 4.5 (etc) which is pretty clear about this. > >Try running your parser through a conformance test suite -- e.g. James >Clark's XMLTEST and Sun's (which incorporates some examples from the >XML spec, avoiding any issues about interpretation). > That's what got me confused in the first place. My original implementation was just to ignore ampersands in the original scan of the entity value. But, if raw ampersands are not allowed, then I'm just asking whether I'm obligated to prove that any ampersand is at least provisionally part of a general entity (even if it later turns out not to be a legal one) during the scan of the entity value. And, if I think its not, that it should be considered in error? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 11 19:43:57 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:53 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur References: <000501be9b73$6b186de0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> Message-ID: <37390C59.60D2159D@prescod.net> Julian Reschke wrote: > > Interesting statement. How about an example. How would you define a schema > where can only contain and , each of which exactly one time? I must not follow your question. The following seems to meet your criteria: -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Diplomatic term: "Emerging Markets" Translation: Poor countries. The great euphemism of the Asian financial meltdown. Investors got much more excited when they thought they could invest in up-and-comers than when they heard they could invest in the Third World.(Brills Content, Apr. 1999) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 11 19:45:00 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <01BE9B9C.B90F1750@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> <37384CEA.792DF8F1@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <37390B9E.4A09C7B2@prescod.net> John Cowan wrote: > > I remain unreconstructed. > > If we are to have validatable ENTITY/ENTITIES attributes, then > we must have unparsed entity declarations as well. Either > lose both or keep both, say I. First: Well, I am perfectly happy to lose ENTITY/ENTITIES and while we're at it ID/IDREF. URLs and XPointers can do both jobs better. Let's keep our layers clean and separate! Second: Even so, I don't follow your argument. The schema needs to validate that there is a unparsed entity with a particular name. Why does the declaration have to be done in the schema? It makes perfect sense to me that a *document* should declare what external resources it needs (through a URL or entity declaration) and that the *schema* would verify that an element that is supposed to reference a resource actually does (whether through a URL or entity). Your argument seems analgous to arguing that IDs should indirect through an "ID object" in the schema. Entities and IDs are a type of object that are tied to a document. Constraints on them apply to a class of documents. The former should go in a document and the latter in a schema. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco And so, in one of history's little ironies, the global triumph of bad software in the age of the PC was reversed by a surprising combination of forces: the social transformation initiated by the network, a long-discarded European theory of political economy, and a small band of programmers throughout the world mobilized by a single simple idea. - http://old.law.columbia.edu/my_pubs/anarchism.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue May 11 19:54:13 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: New schema spec Message-ID: <8725676E.00621F62.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >> >> Is >> there any way that such a system could be reasonably confirmed to be >> non-ambigious (and by reasonable I mean very fast and small amount of code.) >> And, given that, is there any way that it could be validated against in some >> less than exhaustive search way? > >I haven't been completely through the schema spec yet, but let me ask you >two questions: what definition of ambiguity are you using and why do you >care? XML DTDs explicitly allow ambiguity in content models so why >wouldn't schemas? > Well, its kind of a practical matter. From a support perspective (kind o' important to a company our size) proving that the content model is ambiguous means never have to say you're sorry, or at least have to say you're sorry less often. We don't want people pounding us with suspected bugs that are really the result of ambiguous content models. The existing DFA system makes it quite straightforward to catch this, and anything that makes it hard is a bad thing, IMHO. And, before anyone calls me on it... no the existing XML4C2 out there now does not do this check! It'll be in the next one :-) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 20:03:33 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur References: <000501be9b73$6b186de0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> <37390C59.60D2159D@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3738720A.91905BFC@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > > Julian Reschke wrote: > > > > Interesting statement. How about an example. How would you define a schema > > where can only contain and , each of which exactly one time? > > I must not follow your question. The following seems to meet your > criteria: > > Julian's wording is ambiguous, but I take him to mean . -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 20:21:01 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: Confused about & in entity literal References: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <373875FF.A6666D74@locke.ccil.org> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > That's what got me confused in the first place. My original implementation was > just to ignore ampersands in the original scan of the entity value. Be sure to greedily expand character references, though; the ability to define "lt" and the like depends on that ability. > But, if raw > ampersands are not allowed, then I'm just asking whether I'm obligated to prove > that any ampersand is at least provisionally part of a general entity (even if > it later turns out not to be a legal one) during the scan of the entity value. BNF rule 9 says that EntityValues can't contain random & except as part of a well-formed PEReference or Reference, so it's a WF error (which you must catch) to have them, even if the entity is never referenced. All you actually have to do is to ensure that the next character (if not #, see above) is a NAMESTRT character, and that all characters until ; are either NAME or NAMESTRT characters. There is no need (and in fact it is forbidden) to look up the supposed entity name anywhere. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 20:23:06 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <01BE9B9C.B90F1750@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> <37384CEA.792DF8F1@locke.ccil.org> <37390B9E.4A09C7B2@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37387686.7C3428D4@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > Even so, I don't follow your argument. The schema needs to validate that > there is a unparsed entity with a particular name. Why does the > declaration have to be done in the schema? > > It makes perfect sense to me that a *document* should declare what > external resources it needs (through a URL or entity declaration) and that > the *schema* would verify that an element that is supposed to reference a > resource actually does (whether through a URL or entity). Your argument is sound. I am converted. Down with all entity declarations in XSchema! -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 11 20:32:48 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: Mixed content considered harmful... References: <37375E61.42B0CA2F@prescod.net> Message-ID: <373878C8.F1055657@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > #PCDATA is just a data type that is unconstrained. You should be able to > mix data type refs, #PCDATA and element type refs in content models with > impunity (barring real parsing ambiguity). Using old syntax: > > > > I need to be convinced of this. Can you sketch an algorithm that will convert SGML-style (or &-less SGML-style) content models involving #PCDATA into content models involving #PCDATA and #WS, where #WS is a data type that matches only white space, such that random white space around tags will be properly accounted for? Remember that XML parsers are required to pass along all whitespace, (i.e. it all appears in the infoset, barring whitespace outside the root element), so it needs to be accounted for somehow, when it is #PCDATA and when it isn't. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Tue May 11 20:38:09 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:54 2004 Subject: PI target names Message-ID: <002c01be9bd5$58321890$50f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Don Park >> One can wonder why PIs were specified in the first place, if W3C doesn't >> want anyone to use them. > >What I would like to know is WHY W3C does not want to encourage folks to use >PI. Perhaps I'll agree with them once I hear all the arguments, perhaps >not. I would like to know what the arguments are. We should be careful not to mythologize that everyone involved in W3C is anti-PI. Some people perhaps feel that XML is a technology preview to prototype ideas for HTML; that is a credible view to have (though I don't hold it personally); for them PIs represent a dead-end because it is too late to retrofit them into HTML, they think. * To me PIs represent, above all, a proposal of humility by SGML/XML's designers: to admit that even within the most carefully constructed schema, there may in practise be kinds of tags required that the schema designer has not anticipated or expected. These tags may represent kinds of structures which simply do not fit into the element structure. (And the people who detect these different structures may not have the authority or capability to alter the schema.) * Furthermore, there may be conflicting ideas about interesting points within a document, and that such different ideas should be allowed, but only by using the "low-hanging fruit" of point-based tags, not a full concurrent or asynchronous (wrong word) element tree. For example, in what schema language can you say "a document entity must start with this encoding header"? Or, before the top element you must associated a stylesheet? If entities were forced to start with elements and always to contain at least on element, then we could do away with these kinds of PIs: we could use attributes on elements. There is always a problem that in most DTDs (and in some of the schemas, EDD is an exception) that there are many possible root element types, and it is not possible to define attribute requirements based on tree locations (actually, SGML's attribute LINKing allowed some kinds of variant attribute-requirements based on tree-position): this creates a kind of aberrant category of attributes which belong to tree-locations rather than element types. * PIs also represent a method of extensibility in which the PI tags do not alter validation against the DTD. It would be nice to have a schema declaration language which allowed kinds of validity (or at least some kind of notation well-formedness) of PIs. But we should not think that extensibility was entirely missing from SGML: the trouble with PIs as traditionally practised in SGML was that there was no "target" convention enforced or defined, so the extensibility never was able to get organized. * In the absense of a standard way of pointing to individual character positions (numerical character indexing) there is no standard way to have out-of-line markup inside entities which does not disrupt element structures. PIs provide a way of tagging positions, both to accomplish inline parallel structures, if needed, or as targets for out-of-line markup. Unnormalized Unicode has a big ambiguity problem which makes, for many written scripts, numerical character indexing unreliable or problematic: so it may be useful to have the back-up of being able to index to particular PIs within an element instead. * The classic use of PIs is a tag to hang publication-dependencies on. (SGML also had another kind of attribute, the PI attribute, which allowed you to hang PIs off elements too. I don't know whether this can be simulated by ENTITY attributes, where the entity contains a marked-up PI, but I doubt it.) So, for example, you might decide that all pagebreaks and newlines should be signified by PIs. This simplifies content models no end (I can show examples, but they are for Chinese documents). If HTML had PIs, these could have been used to hide scripts (instead of &barfoo; If it is OK for the physical processor to check that the second is valid, it is also OK for the physical processor to check that the first is valid. That the first can be checked post-parse is a red herring. Second, separating physical and logical definitions necessarily implies splitting validity into physical validity (Entity Declared, Standalone Document Declaration, etc.) and logical validity (Element Valid, Required Attribute, etc.). Physical validity is the responsibility of the parser and logical validity is the responsibility of the schema-processing module (which may be part of the parser). In response to Tim's point that it would be nice for schemas to be a pure superset of DTDs, why not have separate physical and logical schema languages? The physical language could be used on a per-document basis and the logical language on a per-document-class basis. The only reason I could think of for schemas being a superset of DTDs -- other than familiarity -- was converting DTDs to schemas on the fly for backwards compatibility of schema-driven software to documents with DTDs. However, this reason doesn't hold water. My experiments with converting DTDs to DDML showed me that I would have to build an intermediate object model -- streaming was not possible -- so there is no reason I couldn't build separate models for physical and logical definitions. (By the way, who needs entity definitions in instance syntax, anyway? The only example I have seen is the document fragment specification. Granted, this is a very convincing customer, but a separate physical schema language would satisfy their needs. Are there others?) -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed May 12 14:01:56 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <373964B5.73572354@prescod.net> This probably isn't the best week to send this but you can't always choose when inspiration (or religious fervor) will come to you. The message is widely crossposted because it crosses disciplines but I would like to see discussion be restricted to XML-DEV or offline. (I choose XML-DEV over xlxp because more people are subscribed there right now. I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds of practical problems addressed below: Problem: No data model. No processing model. In my experience, the most useless language features are those where the interpretation is completely up to the software. The most useful features are those that either have a well defined underlying data model *or* a well-defined processing model. XML notations are useless not because they are a bad idea but because nobody has defined the data model or processing implications of the associated system identifier. The XLink behavior attributes have this problem. Just what do these behaviors *do*? What do they look like? They take us half-way down the path to inline presentation and arguably that is worse than taking us down that path whole hog. What does it look like to traverse a multi-ended link? How are the anchors represented? Do Netscape and Microsoft get to decide? After working for years to give them pixel-perfect stylesheet languages are designers back to trusting that vendors will give them a reasonable rendition? We could go whole hog and specify exactly what they look like (e.g. popup menus, buttons, hotlinks, etc.) and provide options for styling them. But that would further violate a major tenet of the XML religion: the separation of presentation and structure. Problem: media dependence That this is already a problem can be demonstrated by trying to imagine what it means to do an "auto/replace" in a printed document or "auto/embed" in a command-driven text-based user interface. Problem: stylesheet interoperability if XSL and CSS define to the pixel what the rendition of a document in a graphical browser should look like then what room is there for the browser's automatic anchor display behavior? Can they insert icons or buttons that adjust the flow? Can they override colors specified in the stylesheets? There are dozens of little issues like this where the stylesheet and the built-in linking behavior have the possibility of conflicting. Who wins? What are the rules? Do we have to add a concept like CSS's cascade to XSL? Problem: traversal path the behaviors are attached to *anchors* but the correct behavior probably depends both on the source and target anchors. The XLink specification says: "Link formatting and link behavior are inextricably connected" but then goes on to disconnect them. What will happen when we try to reconnect them? Problem: heresy Even if we could attach behaviors to both the source and target, the document is the *wrong place to do it*. We don't put "FONT" elements in our documents because the right font depends on the context of the viewer. Well the right link behavior also depends on the context of the viewer. Some viewers will have low-bandwidth connections and will want to explicitly initiate embedding. Some viewers will have sophisticated tree browsers an will want to treat what the author considered a "replace" links as an "embed". I have used browsers that treat HTML IMGs as "user/embed" (NS,IE images off), "user/new" (user-invoked helper app), "auto/embed"(NS,IE default) and "auto/new" (auto-invoked helper app). Obviously the right one depends on the situation. Other combinations might also make sense in some situations. I have used user agents that treat HTML "A"s as "user/replace"(typical), "user/embed" (Documentor), "user/new"(www-Emacs), "auto/new" (site downloaders). We've got to move this stuff to stylesheets so that people can make stylesheets that are optimized for various media. Even if we ignore UA-display and bandwidth limitations there are lots of other reasons to have anchors behave differently based on the stylesheet. I think three different site designers and/or end users could all disagree on whether the best way to handle a reference to an item in the glossary is an inline expansion (keeps context), a new window (screen clutter) or a replace. Maybe someone new to the topic would like every glossary entry expanded inline by default. Maybe some people want the glossary entry to pop up when the mouse moves over it. Another example: perhaps one view of some document is for "textual" people (pictures on demand) and another for "visual" people (pictures inline). Problem: incompatible implementations Okay, so to get around the fact that the client will and should do whatever it wants, we could refer to the links behaviors as just "hints". "Hints" are a sure sign that something is wrong in language design. They are usually an excuse for not doing the right thing. In this case, the right thing is to move all behavioral specifications into the stylesheet. Web designers should run screaming from underspecified behavioral attributes of all types. They are still trying to clean up the mess left by the (unavoidable) delay between the creation of HTML: "trust your browser" and CSS: "designers know better than software engineers." The behaviors chosen by browser authors were not always interoperable and then when we tried to "layer" the CSS standard on top it became a total mess because the "built-in" stylesheets of various browsers were different. The only way to get 100% portable rendering is to carefully and completely override the built-in behaviors of the browsers. So what is the use of the hints then? Also, XLink's behavior attribute is a car-wreck waiting to happen. What if Microsoft and Netscape use it differently? Problem: confusion Many, many people want to interpret the auto/embed command as an instruction to embed the nodes at the target at the current location and thus do node reuse. But this interpretation is not supported by the XLink specification. The target of an auto/embed could be a language that has no concept of "nodes" (barring definition of grove property sets) such as a JPEG or MPEG. Furthermore, I've thought about making a transclusion syntax for XML and there are some hard problems that XLink has not solved. For instance what if IDs clash. What happens to pointers and links? etc. The specification also suggests that auto/replace can be used for forwarding. To me this is just further evidence that these attribute are medium-specific presentational tricks. Is AltaVista or Google supposed to recognize an auto/replace as a request to update the entry for a document? The argument that these are "invariant semantics of link types" does not strike me as a good one. There is nothing semantic about "when you click here you go there." That's all about behavior. Problem: non-sensical combinations What if a document has a hundred anchors that all have auto/replace? Should it open a hundred documents in the current window *one at a time*? Problem: complexity Let's radically simplify the XLink specification and *get it out the door*. Taking behaviors out will help. Solution: Take all references to behavior and traversal out of the XLink spec. Move it all into a pair of specification called "Extensions to XSL for Link Rendering" and "Extensions to CSS for Link Rendering." In CSS, the basic model would be that link anchor-handling rules would be processed as part of the cascade. The "ordinary" rule might make some text bold and the "linking" rule would make it blue, underlined and clickable. Some simple rules could also render extended links as popup menus, lists of buttons, lists of icons, etc. In XSL, the model would be that link anchor-handling rules would have a higher priority than ordinary rules (either in general or through manual priority setting). They would specify some details of formatting and behavior (e.g. underline and clickability) and then invoke the rules that would otherwise have applied (e.g. to actually process text and sub-elements). Merging of adjacent clickable links can occur in the back-end. (e.g. blah blah blahblah blah blah would be rendered as a single link). -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Diplomatic term: "Emerging Markets" Translation: Poor countries. The great euphemism of the Asian financial meltdown. Investors got much more excited when they thought they could invest in up-and-comers than when they heard they could invest in the Third World.(Brills Content, Apr. 1999) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 12 15:33:44 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! References: <373964B5.73572354@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37398453.FEB5336C@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: [XLink complaints snipped] A hypothetical question: How much of your concerns would be alleviated if XLink explicitly modeled traversal arcs and moved the behavior attributes to individual arcs? Not all, obviously, but not zero either. The pure presentation concerns, IMHO, go away if we concede that stylesheet languages should understand links as objects (as opposed to treating them like all other elements), as your last section proposes. However, I don't see how a stylesheet can sensibly prescribe behavior like "replace". -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 12 15:51:40 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Mixed content considered harmful... References: <37375E61.42B0CA2F@prescod.net> <373878C8.F1055657@locke.ccil.org> <373885E8.459FE5E2@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3739887B.25770CA0@locke.ccil.org> Paul Prescod wrote: > I don't think that you would convert the content models. You leave the > content models alone and just change your matching algorithm slightly. That is very clear. Thanks. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eriblair at mediom.qc.ca Wed May 12 16:35:37 1999 From: eriblair at mediom.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Riblair?=) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Samples of XML4J ... Message-ID: <010c01be9c84$f03c1c80$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca> Does anyone know where I will find some examples for XML4J of IBM ... that use the applet way... Regards, ?ric Riblair, Agronome (eriblair@mediom.qc.ca) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990512/7bf44b1d/attachment.htm From sjs at portal.com Wed May 12 17:00:29 1999 From: sjs at portal.com (Steve Schow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Samples of XML4J ... References: <010c01be9c84$f03c1c80$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca> Message-ID: <37399713.5CEBB224@portal.com> The Applet way? the IBM stuff has to work as an applet or can it work in the web server? -steve ?ric Riblair wrote: > Does anyone know where I will find some examples for XML4J of IBM ... > that use the applet way... Regards, ?ric Riblair, > Agronome > (eriblair@mediom.qc.ca) -- ----------------------------- Steve Schow - Portal Software sjs@portal.com http://www.bstage.com/ ----------------------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Wed May 12 17:28:26 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Entities and Expat (was Re: Confused about & in entity literal) In-Reply-To: <005301be9be5$e16d3800$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> References: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <373875FF.A6666D74@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990512112317.0076e78c@tiac.net> An external entity reference needs a declaration: If you want your application to "just know" about some entities which you have failed to define anywhere, I don't think that documents relying on that behavior would even be considered well-formed. How about putting: and the like into your document? >I'm trying to parse and index documents that contain several HTML-style >general entities ("©", "•", etc.), using Expat ("Version >19990307") as the parser. I want to be able to trap these entity strings >(they're not to be indexed, but they are to be included, untranslated, in >the document output). But, Expat exits with an XML_ERROR_UNDEFINED_ENTITY >error ("..undefined entity at line.."). Inspection of the Expat source >shows the following: -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jlangdon at copeland.com Wed May 12 17:36:28 1999 From: jlangdon at copeland.com (Jeff Langdon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Dynamic HTML/PDF's Message-ID: <8525676F.00556D4F.00@mail.copeland.com> Please excuse the non-XML question, but I have to start somewhere. As a developer I am learning all I can about XML, XSL, etc. and I greatly appreciate all the good information I get from these mailing lists, but my company will be living in the dark ages for some time to come, so my focus here is working with HTML and PDF's. I need to find a way to make a PDF (or similar technology ) dynamic. Example - When a client clicks on a hyperlink I want the PDF to come up with the ability to dynamically through a scripting language or some other technology append a gif or jpeg ( company logo ) to the document. I am using generic forms in conjunction with numerous company logos. Could someone point me in the right direction. Please feel free to contact me directly since this is not really an XML question - jlangdon@copeland.com TIA, Jeff Langdon Senior Web Developer The Copeland Companies xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Wed May 12 17:57:45 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <373964B5.73572354@prescod.net> Message-ID: <199905121557.LAA07291@hesketh.net> At 06:23 AM 5/12/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >This probably isn't the best week to send this but you can't always choose >when inspiration (or religious fervor) will come to you. The message is >widely crossposted because it crosses disciplines but I would like to see >discussion be restricted to XML-DEV or offline. (I choose XML-DEV over >xlxp because more people are subscribed there right now. Per Paul's request, I'm responding to XML-Dev. Is there ever a good week for inspiration? I'd love to find one. Paul's message has lots and lots of parts to it. Rather than sending 35K replies back and forth, I'm going to try to focus on some parts I think make a good beginning. I'd also like to distill this down to a core proposal people can discuss. >I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. >Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds >of practical problems addressed below: I'm not yet with you completely on removal of these attributes, but I'll certainly agree that the many components of XLink that deal with behavior range from the extraordinarily vague to the excessively specific, without very much in the middle. >Also, XLink's behavior attribute is a car-wreck waiting to happen. What if >Microsoft and Netscape use it differently? Agreed, though I think train-wreck is a more appropriate scale. > Problem: complexity > >Let's radically simplify the XLink specification and *get it out the >door*. Taking behaviors out will help. Problem: Getting it out the door. I've been wanting to push (and use) XLink for the last two years. It's very hard to get people excited about something that has a vague draft that's over a year old. Getting the spec out the door will help sell XML as a general-purpose solution to a wide variety of problems that afflict webmasters every day. Simplifying it will ease that selling considerably. > Solution: > >Take all references to behavior and traversal out of the XLink spec. Move >it all into a pair of specification called "Extensions to XSL for Link >Rendering" and "Extensions to CSS for Link Rendering." I'd like to make this as concrete as possible. Does this mean that you'd be looking at something like the model below for describing extended links? (These come more or less from the XLink WD, minus the parts Paul doesn't like. I've renamed some of the role attributes to try and make things a bit clearer. myLinkContainer and myLinkLocator are placeholders, of course.) Style sheets would have to deal with the various roles and piece together appropriate behaviors. A key concern for me is making sure that CSS and XSL use a similar model for processing links and that that model can also be used by applications that wouldn't normally use style sheets. (The simple image map example on my web site is a very simple case, but there are a few thousand other possibilities.) Rather than going directly to implementation in CSS and XSL, I'd like to see an intermediate step describing what exactly is 'in' a link, and possible mechanisms for moving from raw sets of locators to traversable paths (including what might be on that pop-up menu or equivalent.) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Wed May 12 18:02:56 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990512104722.007dd5e0@polaris.net> At 06:23 AM 5/12/1999 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: [pretty convincing arguments about problems in XLink as specified to date] I've always thought of the XLink spec as a comprehensive blue-sky pastiche of wonderful, imperfectly-workable ideas, and figured that with time it would shake out to be, er, more perfectly workable. (And, granted, less blue-sky.) The "hints" in the spec, I reckoned, were there as Post-It(tm) reminders for authors of the next WD as much as for readers of the current one. It's been a looong time between WDs, though; if it would help accelerate the process then I'd be all for jettisoning the behavior-specific bits of the spec (or transferring responsibility for them to the style WGs). OTOH, transplanting the burden won't necessarily accelerate resolution of those Little Flaky Bits. Paul mentioned some problems inherent in transclusion of foreign structures, for example. That's the one LFB I'd be most interested in having and the one I'm least confident of ever obtaining, in anything like perfect form. (This isn't meant as a knock on the work of the Fragments WG by any means; it just seems impossible for them to resolve *all* the transclusion LFBs, e.g. partial nodes, ID clashes, etc.) (Paul didn't mention this, but I also worry greatly about the intellectual-property implications of auto/embed behavior, *especially* in the absence of default style/rendering. This strikes me as a nifty technological bauble with potentially far-reaching cultural impact.) ============================================================= John E. Simpson | It's no disgrace t'be poor, simpson@polaris.net | but it might as well be. | -- "Kin" Hubbard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jasr at im.se Wed May 12 18:34:39 1999 From: jasr at im.se (Serrat Jaime - jasr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Dynamic HTML/PDF's Message-ID: <389DA7CB46CFD111A0D100600836AD65E66D57@msxmar1> Jeff wrote: >I need to find a way to make a PDF (or similar technology ) dynamic. I'm not certain it's your solution, but check out Adobe's page describing XFA. http://www.xfa.com/specifications.html XFA is a working draft specification submitted to the W3C by the JetForm company as an extension to handling XML documents and data as forms. JetForm has actually proposed two distinct documents: one describing a simple scripting language optimized for creating e-form centric logic and calculations, called XFA-Formcalc. The other, describes the open and extensible construction of secure forms with high fidelity composition, automated calculation and validation, pluggable user-interface components, and flexible data handling, called: XFA-Template. Good luck, -- jaime "jim" serrat Technical Manager of PDA08 - EDI Engine Office: +1 609-797-3227 Product Development Fax: +1 609-797-6660 Industri-Matematik Mobile: +1 609-315-3338 Five Greentree Centre Web: http://www.im.se Marlton, NJ 08053 Email: jasr@im.se > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990512/4b10d02d/attachment.htm From niko at cmsplatform.com Wed May 12 18:52:01 1999 From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Entities and Expat References: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <373875FF.A6666D74@locke.ccil.org> <005301be9be5$e16d3800$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <37390768.AF79DAF8@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <004401be9c97$ad0a9820$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> Thank you both for your rapid response. I should have mentioned that i had previously tried to include entity declarations within my document (there is presently no DTD associated with the document). When i included the entity declaration at the beginning of the document (outside the root element), Expat returned XML_ERROR_INVALID_TOKEN ("not well-formed"). If the entity declaration was included within the root element, Expat returned XML_ERROR_SYNTAX ("syntax error"). Indeed, i double-checked this by copying the string from Joshua's email. Same results. Perhaps the real issue is Expat's handling of "" declarations in standalone documents? Or am i still missing something? My application is parsing XML documents that contain HTML entity references ("©", etc.), indexing the text, and building a full-text database comprised of HTML "documents". The app doesn't need to expand, translate, or index the entity strings -- it just needs a string length to keep the document's word offsets straight, and to copy the string to the output stream. I had hoped to do this in the DefaultHandler callback, but of course i'm never getting there. Joshua E. Smith wrote: > If you want your application to "just know" about some entities which you > have failed to define anywhere, I don't think that documents relying on > that behavior would even be considered well-formed. David Brownell wrote: > Expat doesn't read external parameter entities, including > "the" external subset, but it does understand that if it > doesn't come across one of those, all entities must be > defined through the internal subset... John Cowan wrote: > All you actually have to do is to ensure that the next character > (if not #, see above) is a NAMESTRT character, and that all characters > until ; are either NAME or NAMESTRT characters. There is no need (and > in fact it is forbidden) to look up the supposed entity name anywhere. The first two statements seem to contradict the third (what statement sparked my first message). I must admit i remain a little confused about the boundary between well-formed and valid XML documents when it comes to general entities. My opinion would be to agree with John Cowan's statement -- if an EntityRef is physically valid (see "[68]" below), why should the parser, or any other intermediate processor care whether the referenced entity 'Name' exists? However, when i went back to the XML spec, it seems that Joshua E. Smith is indeed correct that my document is *not* well-formed, and therefore Expat is processing it correctly. The following references and excerpts are from Tim Bray's truly excellent annotated XML 1.0 Specification (http://www.xml.com/axml/testaxml.htm or http://www.xml.com/axml/target.html to omit the explanation frame). I've added the text in curly braces (e.g. "{43}") to describe Tim's hyperlinks. ======= Begin spec excerpt ======= 4.3.2 Well-Formed Parsed Entities [snip] An internal general parsed entity is well-formed if its replacement text matches the production labeled content {43}. All internal parameter entities are well-formed by definition. ======= End spec excerpt ======= ======= Begin spec excerpt ======= [43] content ::= (element | CharData | Reference {67} | CDSect | PI | Comment)* ======= End spec excerpt ======= ======= Begin spec excerpt ======= [67] Reference ::= EntityRef | CharRef [68] EntityRef ::= '&' Name ';' [ WFC: Entity Declared ] [ VC: Entity Declared ] [ WFC: Parsed Entity ] [ WFC: No Recursion ] ======= End spec excerpt ======= ======= Begin spec excerpt ======= 4.1 Character and Entity References [snip] Well-Formedness Constraint: Entity Declared In a document without any DTD, a document with only an internal DTD subset which contains no parameter entity references, or a document with "standalone='yes'", the Name given in the entity reference must match that in an entity declaration, except that well-formed documents need not declare any of the following entities: amp, lt, gt, apos, quot. The declaration of a parameter entity must precede any reference to it. Similarly, the declaration of a general entity must precede any reference to it which appears in a default value in an attribute-list declaration. Note that if entities are declared in the external subset or in external parameter entities, a non-validating processor is not obligated to read and process their declarations; for such documents, the rule that an entity must be declared is a well-formedness constraint only if standalone='yes'. ======= End spec excerpt ======= According to the table in section "4.4 XML Processor Treatment of Entities and References", an "Internal General Entity" that is "Reference[d] in Content" is to be "Included". ======= Begin spec excerpt ======= 4.4.3 Included If Validating When an XML processor recognizes a reference to a parsed entity, in order to validate the document, the processor must include its replacement text. If the entity is external, and the processor is not attempting to validate the XML document, the processor may, but need not, include the entity's replacement text. If a non-validating parser does not include the replacement text, it must inform the application that it recognized, but did not read, the entity. ======= End spec excerpt ======= -Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 12 19:00:59 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Entities and Expat References: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <373875FF.A6666D74@locke.ccil.org> <005301be9be5$e16d3800$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <37390768.AF79DAF8@pacbell.net> <004401be9c97$ad0a9820$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> Message-ID: <3739B4EB.2CE425EE@locke.ccil.org> Nik O wrote: > I should have mentioned that i had previously tried to include entity > declarations within my document (there is presently no DTD associated with > the document). That is your problem. You need to create a DTD internal subset declaration, like this: etc. etc. ]> That will cause the entity reference "æ" to expand to the string "æ", which seems to be what you want. > John Cowan wrote: > > All you actually have to do is to ensure that the next character > > (if not #, see above) is a NAMESTRT character, and that all characters > > until ; are either NAME or NAMESTRT characters. There is no need (and > > in fact it is forbidden) to look up the supposed entity name anywhere. I was talking about a different case: entity references within entity declarations, not entity references within the document instance itself. This is really only of concern to parser writers. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From james at xmltree.com Wed May 12 19:22:14 1999 From: james at xmltree.com (james@xmlTree.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:55 2004 Subject: Getting the value of the xmlns attribute Message-ID: <00e501be9c9b$dd50b330$0500a8c0@fourleaf.com> Sorry if this is the inappropriate place to post this question. I've got some RDF data like Internet Alchemy http://alchemy.openjava.org/ Internet Alchemy - last published 7/May/1999 I want to get the value of the xmlns attribute, so I tried to use objSource.selectSingleNode("rdf:RDF/@xmlns"), which does not return an attribute object. The method call objSource.selectSingleNode("rdf:RDF/@xmlns:rdf") *does* return an attribute object. It seems that because xmlns is a reserved word, this particular method call does not return an attribute object. Is there a way around this? p.s. Using XMLDOM from Microsoft IE 5.00.2014.0216 Many thanks in advance, James Carlyle james@xmltree.com www.xmltree.com - directory of XML content on the web xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Wed May 12 19:31:04 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur Message-ID: <8725676F.006013CA.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >> I dispute the usefulness of minOccur and maxOccur. I would like to hear >> about where people would use these features. I find that people often want >> them but can find a clearer way of expressing their document type when >> they are not available. > >Interesting statemen. How about an example. How would you define a schema >where can only contain and , each of which exactly one time? > That one is easy, and can be done via DTD now. It would be: xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From niko at cmsplatform.com Wed May 12 20:06:31 1999 From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Entities and Expat References: <8725676E.00610751.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <373875FF.A6666D74@locke.ccil.org> <005301be9be5$e16d3800$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <37390768.AF79DAF8@pacbell.net> <004401be9c97$ad0a9820$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> <3739B4EB.2CE425EE@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <006d01be9ca2$22c196e0$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> Thanks much for the clarification. Obviously, i need to go back to the remedial XML syntax class, since i was forgetting to wrap the "" declarations within a "" declarations and the root element start-tag are included in the first input file, and the root element end-tag is the last input file, with the untranslated content file(s) in between these wrapper files. I suppose an external DTD would be the preferred alternative, but i'm trying to avoid DTDs, for now (or at least until i pass that remedial class). -Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Wed May 12 21:14:51 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! References: <199905121557.LAA07291@hesketh.net> Message-ID: <3739D18F.3DF4EF07@w3.org> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > >Let's radically simplify the XLink specification and *get it out the > >door*. Taking behaviors out will help. > > Problem: Getting it out the door. I've been wanting to push (and use) > XLink for the last two years. It's very hard to get people excited about > something that has a vague draft that's over a year old. Getting the spec > out the door will help sell XML as a general-purpose solution to a wide > variety of problems that afflict webmasters every day. Agreed. Actually, it narrowly missed being out the door for this weeks WWW8 conference. Expect drafts shortly. This was announced in the XML activity update in the W3C track today. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed May 12 21:56:23 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: Message-ID: <3739D624.AB282D3A@prescod.net> Noah has given me some feedback on the schema-comments list that I would like to forward (with permission) and respond to. Noah_Mendelsohn/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com wrote: > > The schemas WG has given very serious consideration to the view that > validity constraints should be somehow separated from anything in the > schema that affects content. Entities do affect content and could be > eliminated or perhaps "put in a box" as you suggest. [by put in a box he means to make a separate specification that would handle them] > The more difficult case, I think, is default values for attributes. These > too affect content (and in the case of default values for namespace > attributes can affect the deeper meaning of the document structure.) > Anyway, we've heard strong opinions expressed that (1) default values for > attributes are an important feature of any replacement for DTDs and (2) > that it would be very cumbersome to define the default values somewhere > that is far removed from the declaration of the attribute itself. The > natural place to introduce a default does seem to be on the attribute > declaration. I agree, this does seem natural. Here are reasons it seems natural: a) people view the DTD document as documentation for the language b) DTD writers want to communicate to application writers that there is some specific default that makes the most sense c) DTD writers want to be able to change their mind about the specific default later. What if we rethought the attribute default mechanism in terms of these goals? Instead of having default attributes change the parse tree as seen in a DOM 1.0 tool, (i.e. at the lowest infoset) we can have them attach extra nodes to the infoset that the application gets by viewing the data through the schema. The necessity of this infoset is a given: how else will applications know their data types and so forth? In other words, attribute defaulting is a service provided by the schema engine to the application just like data type recognition and attribute value type recognition. It would NOT be a service provided to or by the parser (using the old fashioned definition of parser that did not include the entire universe). Probably defaulting would occur after namespace application (which wouldn't need it) but before (e.g.) XSL application (which would). If it makes it clearer, we can even stop referring to it as a default value and instead refer to it as a "suggested value." And note that you can build this as a SAX filter or DOM layer on top of XML 1.0 SAX or DOM. Text entities cannot really be rethought this way because XML 1.0 requires them to be resolved before anything else can proceed. Plus text entities are probably just not a good idea anyhow: we should be glad to let them die out. > So, depending on how you feel about that analysis of attribute values, > pandora's box is then open. I can see that the box is open but only a crack. If we think of the levels as: 1. physical 2. logical 3. DTD/schema-augmented logical Then default attributes can be considered to be at level 3. If we want to push them back into the parser (I advise against it) then we could call them level 2. But to influence level 1 from level 3 seems particularly gruesome and not backwards compatible. If we do it the "wrong way" then attribute defaulting is analogous to an ingrown toe-nail but text entity insertion is more like an ingrown toe. (sorry!) > The schema can afffect the contents of a > standalone=no document. Having, with regrets, crossed that bridge, does > that change the net tradeoff on entities? Maybe. The standalone=no > document is already potentially dependent on the schema for other reasons, > I.e. attribute defaults. Now the question is: be a proper superset of > DTD, including questionable features, or leave out entities? > > Anyway, these are some of the issues we wrestled with. You can see where > we landed this time. Thanks again for the feedback. > > Noah -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Diplomatic term: "Regret" Translation: To care, but not enough to condemn. ("We regret the loss of life in Sierra Leone. We have no intention to do anything to stop it, mind you, but we regret that it happened.") (Brills Content, Apr. 1999) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From reschke at medicaldataservice.de Wed May 12 23:51:56 1999 From: reschke at medicaldataservice.de (Julian Reschke) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: minOccur, maxOccur In-Reply-To: <37390C59.60D2159D@prescod.net> Message-ID: <003401be9cc1$879a7360$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Paul Prescod > Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 1999 7:07 AM > To: reschke@medicaldataservice.de; xml-dev > Subject: Re: minOccur, maxOccur > > > Julian Reschke wrote: > > > > Interesting statement. How about an example. How would you > define a schema > > where can only contain and , each of which exactly one time? > > I must not follow your question. The following seems to meet your > criteria: > > I think I don't understand your initial question then... Yes, you don't need minOccurs and maxOccurs if you have a DTD as well -- but that would be in addition to a Schema file. My understanding was that a Schema would be used instead of a DTD, and then these two attributes surely are useful. Could you please clarify a bit what you were trying to tell us :-) ? Regards, Julian xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu May 13 01:13:23 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? Message-ID: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> I would like know exactly what W3C's position is on the use of Processing Instruction. Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu May 13 01:39:20 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990512163835.011c52a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 04:15 PM 5/12/99 -0700, Don Park wrote: >I would like know exactly what W3C's position is on the use of Processing >Instruction. I do not speak for W3C, but I can say with little fear of contradiction that consensus on this issue does not yet exist. Some people, as a matter of principle, regard PIs as problematic second-class syntax and would like simply to cease using them. Others see them as a perfectly respectable out-of-band signaling mechanism. Each time the idea of using PIs for some purpose has been proposed, lengthy and intense debate has ensued. In terms of W3C Recommendations, PIs occur in XML 1.0, where they are defined, and in DOM Level 1, which provides an API interface to them. There may be others but those are the ones I know about. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr Thu May 13 02:12:38 1999 From: mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr (Mi-Jeong Koo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <373A1975.ABC6814B@kistmail.kist.re.kr> ... Rainmaker : John Grisham ... Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John Grisham'? Thank you. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu May 13 02:27:18 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? References: <3.0.32.19990512163835.011c52a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <002101be9cd7$9989d000$bb96fea9@w21tp> > I do not speak for W3C, but I can say with little fear of contradiction > that consensus on this issue does not yet exist. Some people, as a matter > of principle, regard PIs as problematic second-class syntax and would like > simply to cease using them. Others see them as a perfectly respectable > out-of-band signaling mechanism. Each time the idea of using PIs for > some purpose has been proposed, lengthy and intense debate has ensued. Tim, Thanks for clearing that up. Do you what the folks who "regard PIs as problematic second-class syntax" recommend for first-class out-of-band signaling mechanism? I wouldn't mind giving up PI if there was an alternative. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Thu May 13 02:52:15 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990512174941.011de6b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 05:29 PM 5/12/99 -0700, Don Park wrote: >Thanks for clearing that up. Do you what the folks who "regard PIs as >problematic second-class syntax" recommend for first-class out-of-band >signaling mechanism? You'd have to ask one of them. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Thu May 13 03:37:15 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? References: <3.0.32.19990512163835.011c52a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <002101be9cd7$9989d000$bb96fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <373A227F.96A1186B@prescod.net> Don Park wrote: > > Thanks for clearing that up. Do you what the folks who "regard PIs as > problematic second-class syntax" recommend for first-class out-of-band > signaling mechanism? I wouldn't mind giving up PI if there was an > alternative. Well, Liam Quin has been a constant critic of processing instructions. http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg03388.html http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9811/0203.html My response: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg03396.html As I said in that message, the important thing about processing instructions is that they are invisible to content models. If XML Schemas invented a way to make elements invisible to content models (like SGML's inclusion exceptions, but maybe only allowed at the top level) and a way to add these inclusions to existing schemas easily then processing instructions could be replaced by these "floating", element types. That would be neat. But if there are no floating element types then we still need processing instructions. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Diplomatic term: "Regret" Translation: To care, but not enough to condemn. ("We regret the loss of life in Sierra Leone. We have no intention to do anything to stop it, mind you, but we regret that it happened.") (Brill's Content, Apr. 1999) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Thu May 13 05:58:11 1999 From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities In-Reply-To: <3739D624.AB282D3A@prescod.net> Message-ID: <199905130357.AA00472@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Paul Prescod wrote: >Noah_Mendelsohn/CAM/Lotus@lotus.com wrote: >> So, depending on how you feel about that analysis of attribute values, >> pandora's box is then open. > >I can see that the box is open but only a crack. I agree with Paul. I personally would like to drop everything that affects information sets from the schema language. Hence, I oppose to information set contributions, archetypes, defaults, entities, notations, .... Cheers, Makoto Fuji Xerox Information Systems Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231 E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu May 13 06:16:17 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? References: <3.0.32.19990512163835.011c52a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <002101be9cd7$9989d000$bb96fea9@w21tp> <373A227F.96A1186B@prescod.net> Message-ID: <004201be9cf7$984b9d20$7dcbfea9@w21tp> > As I said in that message, the important thing about processing > instructions is that they are invisible to content models. If XML Schemas > invented a way to make elements invisible to content models (like SGML's > inclusion exceptions, but maybe only allowed at the top level) and a way > to add these inclusions to existing schemas easily then processing > instructions could be replaced by these "floating", element types. That > would be neat. I entirely agree with your opinion. Liam's view is that of concern over misuse where I am more concerned with functionality. I believe XML community can benefit from a guideline for proper use of PI as well as some mechanism for registering PI target names. Meanwhile we need to encourage HTML browsers to recognize PI so that we do not lose this important feature of XML. Best, Don Park xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr Thu May 13 06:52:04 1999 From: mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr (Mi-Jeong Koo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <373A5B08.C4987405@kistmail.kist.re.kr> ... Rainmaker : John Grisham ... Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John Grisham'? Thank you. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu May 13 10:14:57 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <01BE9D29.29081C90@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Mi-Jeong Koo wrote: > .. > Rainmaker : John Grisham > .. > > > Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John > Grisham'? The characters method in the DocumentHandler interface. Note that parsers are not required to return the entire content in one call -- they could make multiple, sequential calls and return it in pieces. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Thu May 13 10:36:37 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012801be9d1b$87ed3460$dac566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Paul Prescod wrote: >I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds of practical problems addressed below: Behaviour *must* stay. What we need is some mechanism for passing through behaviour control properties from the instance to the XSLT. The behaviour attribute provides us with a standardized point which we can query from within XSLT to determine which types of behaviour a particular instance of an object should have. In fact the behaviour attribute should move from the XLink to XML standard, as xml:behaviour-control, but that is is bit too radical for people to bite off just yet. In the meantime it is vital that at least XLink provides us with a standardized mechanism for controlling instance behaviour. (Paul is right to say this is really a "hints" thing -but it is something more than a hint - it is a set of parameters that can be used to control behaviour where appropriate.) >We could go whole hog and specify exactly what they look like (e.g. popup menus, buttons, hotlinks, etc.) and provide options for styling them. But that would further violate a major tenet of the XML religion: the separation of presentation and structure. No we could not! In the first place XSL is not defining a GUI. In the second we could not begin to guess what the *user* requires. What if the user is blind? None of your suggested behaviours would be of the least use. What if the behaviour said "convert this instances of of invoices to euros before display" or "use the current exchange rate to express any prices in the linked document in the user's local currency"? What if the behaviour said "If this instance of the message is selected do not allow the user to select another of the listed options"? You cannot predefine the behaviour of all (or any) XML document instances - you can only provide an extensible mechanism that people can use to indicate what type of behaviour may be required and what controls should be used for this purpose within the XSL processor. >Take all references to behavior and traversal out of the XLink spec. Move it all into a pair of specification called "Extensions to XSL for Link Rendering" and "Extensions to CSS for Link Rendering." Again its a question of who is in control. We need to leave authors with the right to make choices without having to be stylesheet designers. One type of behaviour I would like to see is to be able to control which stylesheet should be associated with a particular instance when traversed via a particular linked document. As it stands authors have no control over the presentational style of a non-embedded instance. (This is a great agrument for auto-embed as it allows the display of the recalled data to be controlled by the local stylesheet.) We need a better mechanism for choice of stylesheet than those currently being shown. For example, I would like to be able to select the stylesheet used based on the language setting of the user's locale. How can I do this? We desparately need mechanisms to manage both link behaviour and the behaviour of stylesheets associated with linked documents. One attribute to do this, rather than a whole set of customizable ones that change from environment to environment is the only way we are going to get transportable interactive documents. Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co Thu May 13 11:13:12 1999 From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (F.A.A.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:56 2004 Subject: XML spec in spanish Message-ID: <001e01be9d21$197915c0$0100000a@phoebe> Hi everyone, After reading again the XML 1.0 spec, taking careful notes (in spanish), I pretty much realized, this notes could be organized to help people if they had access to a spanish translation of the spec (you know, much like Tim did -thanks Tim-, only in spanish). Is there any spanish translation of the spec? in case there's not, I guess I'd be interested in doing it. You guys see the translation a useful effort for expanding the XML community into spanish-speaking countries or a waste of time? what do you think? Fabio Arciniegas A. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 13 12:12:52 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API In-Reply-To: <373A1975.ABC6814B@kistmail.kist.re.kr> References: <373A1975.ABC6814B@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Message-ID: <14138.11402.978128.504906@localhost.localdomain> Mi-Jeong Koo writes: > ... > Rainmaker : John Grisham > ... > > > Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John > Grisham'? Once you have created a class implementing DocumentHandler, instantiated it, and registered it with the Parser, and initiated the parse, then your handler will receive callbacks. Here's a simplified version: start document start element: "BOOK" characters: "Rainmaker : John Grisham" end element: "BOOK" end document Actually, a SAX parser is free to chunk up characters any which way, so you might end up with start document start element: "BOOK" characters: "Rainmaker" characters: " " characters: ":" characters: " " characters: "John" characters: " " characters: "Grisham" end element: "BOOK" end document Or even more extremely, one callback for each character. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 13 12:12:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? In-Reply-To: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> References: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <14138.11012.530967.639148@localhost.localdomain> Don Park writes: > I would like know exactly what W3C's position is on the use of > Processing Instruction. Perhaps we should start a W3C Should-People-Use-PIs Working Group, or even a PI Activity with several WGs (the PIs-In-Old-HTML-Browsers WG, the PIs-For-Stylesheets WG, etc.). Sorry -- Tim's reply is actually a bit more useful. This is really a question about people and their (varying) opinions, not about W3C policy. Here are the two ends of the spectrum: 1. PIs are probably too useful to drop altogether -- they allow you to do things like mark irregular revision boundaries, invent new declaration types, etc. 2. Level-three-browser compatibility is probably too important to drop altogether -- PIs are unlikely to show up in specs that might be used on HTML pages (Namespaces, RDF, Stylesheet linking, XHTML). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Thu May 13 15:07:45 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE79@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > > Actually, a SAX parser is free to chunk up characters any which way, > so you might end up with [snip] > > Or even more extremely, one callback for each character. Or even more extremely, a few zero-length chunks thrown in for luck. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu May 13 15:22:11 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <002601be9d42$679cbc40$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Martin Bryan wrote: >Paul Prescod wrote: > >>I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. >Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds >of practical problems addressed below: > >Behaviour *must* stay. What we need is some mechanism for passing through >behaviour control properties from the instance to the XSLT. The behaviour >attribute provides us with a standardized point which we can query from >within XSLT to determine which types of behaviour a particular instance of >an object should have. In fact the behaviour attribute should move from the >XLink to XML standard, as xml:behaviour-control, but that is is bit too >radical for people to bite off just yet. In the meantime it is vital that at >least XLink provides us with a standardized mechanism for controlling >instance behaviour. (Paul is right to say this is really a "hints" >thing -but it is something more than a hint - it is a set of parameters that >can be used to control behaviour where appropriate.) > Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be replaced by XSLT now that doc() and docref() have been defined? Does XLink not become something akin to a standard set of XSLT templates used for handling URI traversal? doc() and docref(), as well as unification with XPointer turn XSLT into a generalized graph transformation language. Could the XLink spec itself become an XSLT include file? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Thu May 13 16:41:11 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XML spec in spanish Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255266@MDYNYCMSX1> http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/xml.html is always a good place to check for this sort of thing. http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/xml.html#reference shows an existing translation of the XML spec in Spanish, although the link didn't work when I tried it. There is also a link to a local (www.oasis-open.org) copy which does work. The broken link mentions "Source from SGML-ESP." The list of XML mailing lists at IBM's XML website at http://www.software.ibm.com/xml/community/mailing-lists.html mentions SGML-ESP with the following description: "This XML listserv is meant to serve the Spanish-speaking community. Enviar un mensaje a sgml-esp-request@slug.ctv.es conel subject:subscribe. Para escribir a la lista escribir a sgml-esp@slug.ctv.es." That looks like a good way to get in touch with people working on this. buena suerte, Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. -----Original Message----- From: F.A.A. [mailto:l-arcini@uniandes.edu.co] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 5:10 AM To: XML-dev Subject: XML spec in spanish Hi everyone, After reading again the XML 1.0 spec, taking careful notes (in spanish), I pretty much realized, this notes could be organized to help people if they had access to a spanish translation of the spec (you know, much like Tim did -thanks Tim-, only in spanish). Is there any spanish translation of the spec? in case there's not, I guess I'd be interested in doing it. You guys see the translation a useful effort for expanding the XML community into spanish-speaking countries or a waste of time? what do you think? Fabio Arciniegas A. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu May 13 16:46:15 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <002601be9d42$679cbc40$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Message-ID: <199905131445.KAA12757@hesketh.net> At 09:13 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: > Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be replaced by XSLT >now that doc() and docref() have been defined? Does XLink not become >something akin to a standard set of XSLT templates used for handling URI >traversal? doc() and docref(), as well as unification with XPointer turn >XSLT into a generalized graph transformation language. Could the XLink spec >itself become an XSLT include file? Er... just everything. One of the key points of XLink is that it is _not_ bonded to a particular style sheet language. XLink is useful in contexts where XSLT is either too much or too little, and provides common vocabulary that document developers can use to describe links whatever final processing the documents may receive. If your question is rephrased: "Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be implemented by XSLT?" Then it might be received a little more kindly by those of us who work with XML in contexts where XSL (indeed style sheets, at times) is unnecessary. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nevansmu at fdgroup.co.uk Thu May 13 16:59:14 1999 From: nevansmu at fdgroup.co.uk (Neil Evans-Mudie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XML-Dev: Getting the value of the xmlns attribute Message-ID: <01BE9D4B.AEACC9A0.nevansmu@fdgroup.co.uk> Greetings Mark & all u other VBXML'ers, PERSONAL INTRODUCTION - BIN IF NOT INTERESTED boy i'm glad to have this mailing list - i'm real excited that a specific list has been set up for VB & XML. Anyway i'll just introduce myself, then i'll go straight to the website 'projects area' and then contribute as much as i can to the mailing list. Hi, i'm Neil Evans-Mudie originally from the Isle Of Man now a resident of Sheffield, England (as in Steel and cutlery!!). I work for a software house called Fretwel-Downing Data Systems (http://www.fdgroup.co.uk). I'm interested in using XML within, what we call, the Further Education market To enable data exchange between our back office systems. I'm trying to do this with VB, MSXML.DLL, MTS, MSMQ and SQL-Server using shape extensions to ADO/SQL. I come from a Geographical Info. Systems and VB background (I used to teach GIS at Uni.). Anyway i'm pretty sporty and a generally jovial character (I think). So there u go - looking forward to participating in the VBXML community. Neil. > Hi James. > > Thanks for the promo... its all true!! Except that I am not a kiwi, I am from South Africa > and my wife and I are work-travelling around the place. This weekend we move to Australia. > > Hi Neil > > Go to our wbsite at http://www.vbxml.com and sign up for the email discussion lists. Read > the FAQ and so on. It's definitely where you need to be. > > But more importantly, check out our projects area - the XSL Tester one is excellent for you I > think. The code snippets in the Demo XML code area - the XML engine for call centers has > MASSIVE amounts of DOM code. > > Good luck! > Mark. > > > > Neil > > > > > firstly let me apologise for intruding on your time but i wondered if u may > > No problem! > > > > > can't work out how to populate the DOM tree from a dao or ado recordset - > > > could u suggest a way. > > No - I have never used ado etc. - I only use Allaire's Cold Fusion. I can recommend 2 > > resources - the book "XML-IE5" from Wrox (?27, ISBN 1-861001-57-6), and the (very active) > > user group VBXML at vbxml.com (run by a really keen and helpful NZer called Mark Wilson > > who is writing a book on VB and XML). They have quite a lot of sample code and are very > > keen to help active members. > > > > Best regards, > > James Carlyle > > > > > James, > > > > > > firstly let me apologise for intruding on your time but i wondered if u may > > > be able to help me. I noticed that this message invloved MS's DOM > > > (presumably MSXML.dll) - i've been trying to use the dll with little > > > success from vb (i'm a fairly novice vb'er and completely new to XML). i > > > can't work out how to populate the DOM tree from a dao or ado recordset - > > > could u suggest a way. > > > > > > Also once populated, how can i then add additional nodes and validate the > > > 'completed' tree against a DTD? > > > > > > Finally i'm going to export the xml as string to another application, which > > > i know i can create the xml string form the method DOMDocument.XML. I'll > > > pass this to message queue or other COM object, which the target can then > > > process in a predefined manner. > > > > > > I'd appreciate any pointers both general & specific which u could give me - > > > i've been on & off struggling with this for about 4 weeks and unfortunately > > > haven't receieved any guidance from general postings to any of the xml or > > > vb lists, or xml web sites i've found. > > > > > > Once again sorry to intrude on your private mailbox but, well, er, um, if > > > i've offended u please just bin the message!! > > > > > > TIA, best wishes, > > > > > > Neil. > > > > > > PS. it nice to see somebody else out there using MSXML.dll - that it in > > > itself gives me some belief. > > > > > > Neil Evans-Mudie > > > Developer, fretwell-downing group Ltd. > > > (nevansmu@fdgroup.co.uk; http://www.fdgroup.co.uk/) > > > [Snail-Mail: > > > fretwell-downing group Ltd, > > > Brincliffe House, 861 Ecclesall Road, Sheffield, S11 7AE, England. > > > Tel: +44 (0)114 281 6000; Fax: +44 (0)114 281 6001] > > > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Thu May 13 17:15:59 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: archetype refinement and architectural forms Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255268@MDYNYCMSX1> It looks to me like the refinement of archetypes as described in the "XML Schema Part 1: Structures" document will make it possible to implement much of the intent behind architectural forms. Any comments? Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu May 13 17:29:17 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? References: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> <14138.11012.530967.639148@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <009c01be9d55$96de88e0$7dcbfea9@w21tp> > 2. Level-three-browser compatibility is probably too important to drop > altogether -- PIs are unlikely to show up in specs that might be > used on HTML pages (Namespaces, RDF, Stylesheet linking, XHTML). Level-three-browsers can be supported by filtering out PI from the server-side if the client can not handle PI. Real world problems like legacy browser incompatibility are best solved with real world solutions. Best, Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wunder at infoseek.com Thu May 13 17:48:17 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <373964B5.73572354@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990513083325.00c8fb80@corp> At 06:23 AM 5/12/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > >I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. >Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. I agree that they mix presentation and structure, but I also feel that it is worthwhile to capture some common situations. That is, allow people to define link "roles", but start out with a few standard roles. This is analogous to including xml:lang in the XML spec. I'm concerned about XML being less useful than HTML because of a lack of common elements (conventions). For example, an XML author has no way to reliably give a web spider a title, description, or robot hints (follow/nofollow, index/noindex). Also, link roles could be meaningful to an indexing program -- transcluded text should be indexed with the source doc, -linked text shouldn't. I'm hunting down a copy of the PCTE rationale, since it has a nice description of the link roles in PCTE, and how they got to that design. Meanwhile, maybe I should write a NOTE proposing a PI analogous to the robots meta tag (). wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr Thu May 13 06:52:04 1999 From: mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr (Mi-Jeong Koo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <373A5B08.C4987405@kistmail.kist.re.kr> ... Rainmaker : John Grisham ... Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John Grisham'? Thank you. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Thu May 13 17:51:21 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990513114639.00768410@tiac.net> I have an element which can contain 0 or more instances of some element types (call these collections), and 0 or 1 instances of others (call these singletons), and I don't want to contrain the order. If I have collections C1, C2, C3 and I have singletons S1, S2, S3 And I declare: (S1? , S2? , S3? , (C1 | C2 | C3)*) Then the singletons, if they appear, would have to be in that order and would have to be first. So that's not what I want. I suppose I could declare some combinatorics: ( S1? | S2? | S3? | (S1 , S2)? | (S2 , S1)? | (S1 , S3)? blah blah blah but I'd have to mix in the C1, C2, C3, etc., too, and I have about 8 singleton classes, so this would quickly get totally out of control. Am I missing something, or is what I want to describe not really practical in a DTD? I'm perfectly comfortable leaving the singletonness out of my DTD (my application will detect duplication errors anyway), if that's the only answer. But if there *is* a way to capture this without waiting for XSchema to be finished, I'd love to hear it! -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Thu May 13 10:14:57 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API Message-ID: <01BE9D29.29081C90@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Mi-Jeong Koo wrote: > .. > Rainmaker : John Grisham > .. > > > Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John > Grisham'? The characters method in the DocumentHandler interface. Note that parsers are not required to return the entire content in one call -- they could make multiple, sequential calls and return it in pieces. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co Thu May 13 11:13:12 1999 From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (F.A.A.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: XML spec in spanish Message-ID: <001e01be9d21$197915c0$0100000a@phoebe> Hi everyone, After reading again the XML 1.0 spec, taking careful notes (in spanish), I pretty much realized, this notes could be organized to help people if they had access to a spanish translation of the spec (you know, much like Tim did -thanks Tim-, only in spanish). Is there any spanish translation of the spec? in case there's not, I guess I'd be interested in doing it. You guys see the translation a useful effort for expanding the XML community into spanish-speaking countries or a waste of time? what do you think? Fabio Arciniegas A. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 13 12:12:52 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:57 2004 Subject: Parsing content with SAX API In-Reply-To: <373A1975.ABC6814B@kistmail.kist.re.kr> References: <373A1975.ABC6814B@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Message-ID: <14138.11402.978128.504906@localhost.localdomain> Mi-Jeong Koo writes: > ... > Rainmaker : John Grisham > ... > > > Is there any SAX API function to get the content, 'Rainmaker : John > Grisham'? Once you have created a class implementing DocumentHandler, instantiated it, and registered it with the Parser, and initiated the parse, then your handler will receive callbacks. Here's a simplified version: start document start element: "BOOK" characters: "Rainmaker : John Grisham" end element: "BOOK" end document Actually, a SAX parser is free to chunk up characters any which way, so you might end up with start document start element: "BOOK" characters: "Rainmaker" characters: " " characters: ":" characters: " " characters: "John" characters: " " characters: "Grisham" end element: "BOOK" end document Or even more extremely, one callback for each character. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 13 12:12:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? In-Reply-To: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> References: <005f01be9ccd$46003500$bb96fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <14138.11012.530967.639148@localhost.localdomain> Don Park writes: > I would like know exactly what W3C's position is on the use of > Processing Instruction. Perhaps we should start a W3C Should-People-Use-PIs Working Group, or even a PI Activity with several WGs (the PIs-In-Old-HTML-Browsers WG, the PIs-For-Stylesheets WG, etc.). Sorry -- Tim's reply is actually a bit more useful. This is really a question about people and their (varying) opinions, not about W3C policy. Here are the two ends of the spectrum: 1. PIs are probably too useful to drop altogether -- they allow you to do things like mark irregular revision boundaries, invent new declaration types, etc. 2. Level-three-browser compatibility is probably too important to drop altogether -- PIs are unlikely to show up in specs that might be used on HTML pages (Namespaces, RDF, Stylesheet linking, XHTML). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Thu May 13 10:36:37 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012801be9d1b$87ed3460$dac566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Paul Prescod wrote: >I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds of practical problems addressed below: Behaviour *must* stay. What we need is some mechanism for passing through behaviour control properties from the instance to the XSLT. The behaviour attribute provides us with a standardized point which we can query from within XSLT to determine which types of behaviour a particular instance of an object should have. In fact the behaviour attribute should move from the XLink to XML standard, as xml:behaviour-control, but that is is bit too radical for people to bite off just yet. In the meantime it is vital that at least XLink provides us with a standardized mechanism for controlling instance behaviour. (Paul is right to say this is really a "hints" thing -but it is something more than a hint - it is a set of parameters that can be used to control behaviour where appropriate.) >We could go whole hog and specify exactly what they look like (e.g. popup menus, buttons, hotlinks, etc.) and provide options for styling them. But that would further violate a major tenet of the XML religion: the separation of presentation and structure. No we could not! In the first place XSL is not defining a GUI. In the second we could not begin to guess what the *user* requires. What if the user is blind? None of your suggested behaviours would be of the least use. What if the behaviour said "convert this instances of of invoices to euros before display" or "use the current exchange rate to express any prices in the linked document in the user's local currency"? What if the behaviour said "If this instance of the message is selected do not allow the user to select another of the listed options"? You cannot predefine the behaviour of all (or any) XML document instances - you can only provide an extensible mechanism that people can use to indicate what type of behaviour may be required and what controls should be used for this purpose within the XSL processor. >Take all references to behavior and traversal out of the XLink spec. Move it all into a pair of specification called "Extensions to XSL for Link Rendering" and "Extensions to CSS for Link Rendering." Again its a question of who is in control. We need to leave authors with the right to make choices without having to be stylesheet designers. One type of behaviour I would like to see is to be able to control which stylesheet should be associated with a particular instance when traversed via a particular linked document. As it stands authors have no control over the presentational style of a non-embedded instance. (This is a great agrument for auto-embed as it allows the display of the recalled data to be controlled by the local stylesheet.) We need a better mechanism for choice of stylesheet than those currently being shown. For example, I would like to be able to select the stylesheet used based on the language setting of the user's locale. How can I do this? We desparately need mechanisms to manage both link behaviour and the behaviour of stylesheets associated with linked documents. One attribute to do this, rather than a whole set of customizable ones that change from environment to environment is the only way we are going to get transportable interactive documents. Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Thu May 13 18:04:06 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012801be9d1b$87ed3460$dac566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Paul Prescod wrote: >I believe that the XLink behavioral attributes should be removed. Theoretically they mix presentation and structure. This causes all kinds of practical problems addressed below: Behaviour *must* stay. What we need is some mechanism for passing through behaviour control properties from the instance to the XSLT. The behaviour attribute provides us with a standardized point which we can query from within XSLT to determine which types of behaviour a particular instance of an object should have. In fact the behaviour attribute should move from the XLink to XML standard, as xml:behaviour-control, but that is is bit too radical for people to bite off just yet. In the meantime it is vital that at least XLink provides us with a standardized mechanism for controlling instance behaviour. (Paul is right to say this is really a "hints" thing -but it is something more than a hint - it is a set of parameters that can be used to control behaviour where appropriate.) >We could go whole hog and specify exactly what they look like (e.g. popup menus, buttons, hotlinks, etc.) and provide options for styling them. But that would further violate a major tenet of the XML religion: the separation of presentation and structure. No we could not! In the first place XSL is not defining a GUI. In the second we could not begin to guess what the *user* requires. What if the user is blind? None of your suggested behaviours would be of the least use. What if the behaviour said "convert this instances of of invoices to euros before display" or "use the current exchange rate to express any prices in the linked document in the user's local currency"? What if the behaviour said "If this instance of the message is selected do not allow the user to select another of the listed options"? You cannot predefine the behaviour of all (or any) XML document instances - you can only provide an extensible mechanism that people can use to indicate what type of behaviour may be required and what controls should be used for this purpose within the XSL processor. >Take all references to behavior and traversal out of the XLink spec. Move it all into a pair of specification called "Extensions to XSL for Link Rendering" and "Extensions to CSS for Link Rendering." Again its a question of who is in control. We need to leave authors with the right to make choices without having to be stylesheet designers. One type of behaviour I would like to see is to be able to control which stylesheet should be associated with a particular instance when traversed via a particular linked document. As it stands authors have no control over the presentational style of a non-embedded instance. (This is a great agrument for auto-embed as it allows the display of the recalled data to be controlled by the local stylesheet.) We need a better mechanism for choice of stylesheet than those currently being shown. For example, I would like to be able to select the stylesheet used based on the language setting of the user's locale. How can I do this? We desparately need mechanisms to manage both link behaviour and the behaviour of stylesheets associated with linked documents. One attribute to do this, rather than a whole set of customizable ones that change from environment to environment is the only way we are going to get transportable interactive documents. Martin Bryan XSL-List info and archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nevansmu at fdgroup.co.uk Thu May 13 18:06:56 1999 From: nevansmu at fdgroup.co.uk (Neil Evans-Mudie) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: Aplogies: wrong list!! Please delete immediately Message-ID: <01BE9D62.EF4EB060.nevansmu@fdgroup.co.uk> Aplogies to all at xml-dev this message was sent to the wrong list!! Sorry again (my contacts were set up incorrectly). Thanx Robert for informing me. On Thursday, May 13, 1999 5:06 PM, DuCharme, Robert [SMTP:DuCharmR@moodys.com] wrote: > Uhh, you sent this to the xml-dev list, but it's not a list for VB & > XML. http://www.vbxml.com/Joining/joining.htm shows that vbxml is a > different list from xml-dev. > > Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob snee.com> see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: > The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. > > -----Original Message----- > From: nevansmu@fdgroup.co.uk [mailto:nevansmu@fdgroup.co.uk] > Sent: Thursday, May 13, 1999 9:20 AM > To: XML-Dev (E-mail) > Subject: Re: XML-Dev: Getting the value of the xmlns attribute > > > Greetings Mark & all u other VBXML'ers, > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 13 18:45:01 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: archetype refinement and architectural forms In-Reply-To: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255268@MDYNYCMSX1> References: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255268@MDYNYCMSX1> Message-ID: <14139.281.921006.222388@localhost.localdomain> DuCharme, Robert writes: > It looks to me like the refinement of archetypes as described in > the "XML Schema Part 1: Structures" document will make it possible > to implement much of the intent behind architectural forms. Any > comments? >From my first, quick skim, I think that there are a couple of problems with that approach: 1. It's very heavy-weight and processor-intensive, compared to simple Namespaces or AF processing. 2. There's no facility for multiple inheritance. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricker at xmls.com Thu May 13 18:51:21 1999 From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990509153541.01b73ee0@mail.userland.com> References: <007601be9a6a$54bf8100$4d27fea9@w21tp> <4.2.0.37.19990509093952.01c59c60@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <199905131650.MAA19795@mail.his.com> Dave, Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? What does RSS do that CDF does not? Is the difference so drastic that a new format is necessary, or could CDF be improved instead? I don't mean for this to sound like a jab. I am genuinely curious to know your purpose and reasoning. Jeffrey Ricker XMLSolutions At 03:36 PM 5/9/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: >RSS *is* interesting.. > >http://my.netscape.com/publish/help/quickstart.html > >It still needs to carry more info, but it's an excellent start. > >Dave > >At 03:21 PM 5/9/99 , Don Park wrote: >>Dave, >> >>RSS sounds interesting. Where can I find more information on it? A search >>of Netscape's developer site using "RSS" doesn't find anything. >> >>Best, >> >>Don Park >>Docuverse >> >> >> >>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >>To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >>(un)subscribe xml-dev >>To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >>subscribe xml-dev-digest >>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 13 19:00:00 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: FYI--off-topic--Notation Schemas proposal Message-ID: <003c01be9d59$fcc67fb0$1df96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> For anyone who is interested, there is a draft-in-progress of my ideas for a good schema language. It allows you do things like * content models for attribute lists: to say element X can have attributes (id & (size & size-units)? & ( href | entityref)? ) * content models for attribute values, to say that attribute Y can have NMTOKENS ( MONDAY | TUESDAY | WEDNESDAY | THURSDAY | FRIDAY | (SATURDAY? & SUNDAY?) ) * content models for IDREFS links, to say that element Z can have IDREFS to particular types of elements ( ( p | q | tbl ), (p, | q | tbl) In other words, it treats attribute lists, attribute value lists, & IDREF lists with the same strong typing that is available to elements. The foundation of my proposal is that everything should be modelled as a grammar: if the decision of whether to make something an attribute, an element or an element reference (IDREF) is completely arbitrary (from the information modeled), then why not allow strong typing on all them. It moves XML from being a strongly-yped tree language to being a strongly-typed graph language. It also allows people more freedom to structure their documents, for example to move to flat relational-style tables without giving up strong typing. This would make RDF more useful too. However, I gather some of this might be out of the scope of the XML Schema group. However, since apparantly XML 1.0 conformance was outside their scope too, apparantly (I am being naughty: they did an amazing job to pull together so many proposals and put it out on time...lets not forget that it is only a draft), perhaps they may be open to developing in other directions. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Thu May 13 19:07:49 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <006201be9d61$f3c33e00$0b2e249b@fileroom.Synapse> Simon St.Laurent : >At 09:13 AM 5/13/99 -0400, Jonathan Borden wrote: >> Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be replaced by XSLT >>now that doc() and docref() have been defined? Does XLink not become >>something akin to a standard set of XSLT templates used for handling URI >>traversal? doc() and docref(), as well as unification with XPointer turn >>XSLT into a generalized graph transformation language. Could the XLink spec >>itself become an XSLT include file? > >Er... just everything. > >One of the key points of XLink is that it is _not_ bonded to a particular >style sheet language. XLink is useful in contexts where XSLT is either too >much or too little, and provides common vocabulary that document developers >can use to describe links whatever final processing the documents may receive. > >If your question is rephrased: > >"Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be implemented by XSLT?" > >Then it might be received a little more kindly by those of us who work with >XML in contexts where XSL (indeed style sheets, at times) is unnecessary. > No intention to offend. You are correct, it seems to me that XLink can be implemented via XSLT now that XSLT includes doc() and docref(). There remains a distinction between the concept of XLink and the implementation. The concept of XLink does appear to be related to the concept of XPointer, both are specifications for graph traversal. My thought was that as it has been announced that the XPointer and XSL specs are to be combined that XLink might benefit from a similar integration. What I am struggling with is the question as to, if behaviors are removed from XLink, what concept does XLink contain beyond either a single URI or set of URIs? All of this, including bi-directional links etc, comes down to graph->graph transformation. It is unfortunate that this very important and general facility gets labeled a 'stylesheet' technology (not that I have anything against stylesheets. Since graph->graph transformation underlies a wide range of facilities, including RDF, a central and core definition of graph-graph transformation and traversal facilities greatly strengthens the ability of 'XML' to deliver on it's promises. XLink, like XPointer is a key element to graph traversal and for this reason these technologies should be grouped together and viewed as parts of a single larger picture. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 13 19:13:04 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: Notation Schema proposal draft Message-ID: <005a01be9d5b$d23f4860$1df96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> I forgot the URL for my proposal. http://www.ascc.net/~ricko/notation.htm Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Thu May 13 19:37:27 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: At 8:46 AM 5/13/99, Joshua E. Smith wrote: >I have an element which can contain 0 or more instances of some element >types (call these collections), and 0 or 1 instances of others (call these >singletons), and I don't want to contrain the order. > >If I have collections C1, C2, C3 >and I have singletons S1, S2, S3 > >And I declare: > >(S1? , S2? , S3? , (C1 | C2 | C3)*) > >Then the singletons, if they appear, would have to be in that order and >would have to be first. So that's not what I want. > >I suppose I could declare some combinatorics: > >( S1? | S2? | S3? | (S1 , S2)? | (S2 , S1)? | (S1 , S3)? blah blah blah > >but I'd have to mix in the C1, C2, C3, etc., too, and I have about 8 >singleton classes, so this would quickly get totally out of control. > >Am I missing something, or is what I want to describe not really practical >in a DTD? I'm perfectly comfortable leaving the singletonness out of my >DTD (my application will detect duplication errors anyway), if that's the >only answer. But if there *is* a way to capture this without waiting for >XSchema to be finished, I'd love to hear it! The AND '&' connector in SGML covered this functionality, but isn't included in XML. It can thus easily be described in a DTD, just not an *XML* DTD. -- Terje | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From travis at betty.cnidr.org Thu May 13 20:23:24 1999 From: travis at betty.cnidr.org (Travis Walsh) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: XML::Parser Message-ID: <011c01beb5c9$6cabb980$15b36d80@cnidr.org> I'm running XML:Parser 2.20 on linux. All of the newlines are stripped when I run a CharHandler. Should this be happening and how can I stop it? ********************** * K. Travis Walsh * MCNC / CNIDR * Programmer / Analyst * travis@mcnc.org ********************** My Quote of the day: Talk doesn't cook rice. -Chinese proverb xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu May 13 20:39:06 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <87256770.006634D9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> I never really had any one say whether they thought that validation that included both AND connectors and M to N repetition for any of the connectors is feasible (meaning fast and compact and maintainable and verifiable in my opinion, but tell me if you disagree.) Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force tree search times? Is any combination of trees with some nodes which are traditional DFAs make any sense? Are there any even theoretical discussions of such things out there anywhere for folks to study? Give that these are both stated goals of Schema, if they are not feasible that's an issue that should be discussed early. If they are feasible, then we can get on with it and not waste time arguing. I personally am not a big theoretical data structures person, or even a little one for that matter. I'm an object infrastructure person who just happens to be doing XML right now. So, from my perspective, I'm pretty concerned that the Schema spec, as stands, might require a doctoral thesis to implement a validator for that performs reasonably well. Am I just being paranoid and there is really a "XML Structural Validation With ANDs and NtoMs for Dummies" out there somewhere? If there is such a thing, could it be made to perform even within say 20% of the DFA based state machine of existing XML parsers? What are the feelings of some folks who implemented SGML validators? If you had to start with that and add NtoM repetition on top of that, where would that have taken you? Or did SGML already provide both of these things? If so, what was the general architecture used in some common ones? Why is the sky blue? Sorry for all the questions, but this is just an area where I don't have very much understanding and hope that there is some lingering SGML based wisdom in these areas that could be shared, or that perhaps some of you are big theoretical data structures folks who would like to expound on this subject for our enlightenment. TIA for any light shed. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Thu May 13 20:48:41 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:58 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <87256770.00672902.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >What if we rethought the attribute default mechanism in terms of these >goals? Instead of having default attributes change the parse tree as seen >in a DOM 1.0 tool, (i.e. at the lowest infoset) we can have them attach >extra nodes to the infoset that the application gets by viewing the data >through the schema. The necessity of this infoset is a given: how else >will applications know their data types and so forth? > >In other words, attribute defaulting is a service provided by the schema >engine to the application just like data type recognition and attribute >value type recognition. It would NOT be a service provided to or by the >parser (using the old fashioned definition of parser that did not include >the entire universe). Probably defaulting would occur after namespace >application (which wouldn't need it) but before (e.g.) XSL application >(which would). > Hmmmm. Maybe I'm not fully understand you. But, if I am, this would be a serious problem with respect to performance. The parser really has to understand namespaces or you can never validate a stream based API, right? If the understanding of namespaces requires that it all happen after the fact, i.e. after its gone out the parser, then streaming protocols could not really be validated since the data would have to be accumulated until some part of the tree is built and can be validated, right? That would be kind of at odds to what makes streaming protocols useful. Or did I just totally miss the point? You *could* build it on top of SAX, but it would mean a very significant difference in performance. We can currently validate event output with a very small amount of overhead beyond the basic parsing overhead, because we understand such issues inside the parser and can apply the validation as the stream 'goes by'. If we had to give that up, though it would have other nice side effects, would be something to think hard about. Anything that makes XML perform noticebly worse is something to consider in its job as interchange language, right? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bryan.cooper at veritas.com Thu May 13 21:07:16 1999 From: bryan.cooper at veritas.com (Bryan Cooper) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: XML validation In-Reply-To: <003c01be9d59$fcc67fb0$1df96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <4.1.19990513101336.00db53d0@pop.ncal.verio.com> Rick - I didnt see where to pickup your draft. Since this group is NOT XML-standards-body-only-need-apply, I thought I'd make a 2 cent point. SOMEWHERE in xmlland there is an effort to use XML tags syntax instead of DTD, and I just have to workaround with my own for now. Maybe that is getting completed. In any case, what I feel is that its EASIER for me to setup an XML validation thang than what I see as a separate syntax in the DTD world. PLUS it gets awfully difficult from an application approach to get really detailed rules e.g. arbitrary extensions to DTD for those cases where "if its tuesday and you are in belgium, you can speak three languages unless you are in a lambic beer brewery". To me, XML (or maybe xml) is helpful 'cause its readable e.g. intuitive - DTD's aint' folks and never will be.. So rather than worry about it, I create an application level XML tag and then place entries for each attribute for my own application. I am not trying to pursue STANDARDS. I am interested in STANDARDS when the parser folks can improve their interaction with my applications. A while ago I brought up EVENT handling which I feel is essential to getting more power from the parser but that met a big THUNK with the people on this group at that time. So, for my apps, after the XML parser has validated the entries via DTD, I can use a more granular application level XML approach. For example, to validate the XML entry and its several attributes, I have this 'validate' method hanging around for my application. At some point I could go back and build the DTD from this information and let the parser do the error checking, but this was faster for me to build into my application for right now than trying to grok the DTD stuff. And I don't see how the parser is going to handle the issues right now that more errors/rules brings to the table. I am using Python and the code to validate this was very short and easy to implement. Maybe 50 lines. I would see more benefit in using the parser if there was clearer interactions between the parser and the real world application. Most parsers take a document centric approach while I am working more data driven where I use bits of XML all through the processing of the application. So I want to be able to control just when this level of validation is done for example. BTW, can you find the INVALID XML on this page based on this syntax? I suspect other folks are doing something similar here to get things going: IMHO, this approach is more readable as well as more flexible than the DTD. Can someone point me to the status of using XML for this kind of validation is done? Again, if the PARSER's said they could do something more with the DTD than just complain when an error occurred, it would be more helpful to me. I know that the nascent XML editors need the DTDs so in the long term I'll have to go back and support that. ...bryan F. Bryan Cooper 707 823 7324 707 313 0355 fax VERITAS Software 707 321 3301 mobile Bryan.Cooper@veritas.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990513/ff1086e5/attachment.htm From jlatone at fantastic.com Thu May 13 21:13:43 1999 From: jlatone at fantastic.com (Joseph A. Latone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? In-Reply-To: <37382930.D6F2952E@darmstadt.gmd.de> Message-ID: <000201be9d74$9c212e60$030a0a0a@cub> As well as a couple products http://www.viewsoft.com http://www.harmonia.com Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > Robb Shecter > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 1999 5:57 AM > Cc: XML Developers' List > Subject: Re: Guidelines to describe an User Interface ? > > > Hi, > > You might also want to check out: > > http://www.bluestone.com/xml/XwingML/ > http://www.pierlou.com/prototype > http://cs.nyu.edu/phd_students/fuchs/ > > - Robb > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Thu May 13 21:54:22 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: At 11:36 AM 5/13/99, roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: >I never really had any one say whether they thought that validation that >included both AND connectors and M to N repetition for any of the connectors is >feasible (meaning fast and compact and maintainable and verifiable in my >opinion, but tell me if you disagree.) > >Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force tree search >times? XML requires deterministic content models. This allows validators to do their job without having to look more than one element ahead or do brute force tree searches. -- Terje | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From whisper at accessone.com Thu May 13 21:56:00 1999 From: whisper at accessone.com (David LeBlanc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Singletons in a DTD In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990513113709.009953a0@mail.accessone.com> Would (S1? | S2? | S3? | (C1 | C2 | C3)*) work? Dave LeBlanc At 10:40 AM 5/13/99 -0700, Terje Norderhaug wrote: >At 8:46 AM 5/13/99, Joshua E. Smith wrote: >>I have an element which can contain 0 or more instances of some element >>types (call these collections), and 0 or 1 instances of others (call these >>singletons), and I don't want to contrain the order. >> >>If I have collections C1, C2, C3 >>and I have singletons S1, S2, S3 >> >>And I declare: >> >>(S1? , S2? , S3? , (C1 | C2 | C3)*) >> >>Then the singletons, if they appear, would have to be in that order and >>would have to be first. So that's not what I want. >> >>I suppose I could declare some combinatorics: >> >>( S1? | S2? | S3? | (S1 , S2)? | (S2 , S1)? | (S1 , S3)? blah blah blah >> >>but I'd have to mix in the C1, C2, C3, etc., too, and I have about 8 >>singleton classes, so this would quickly get totally out of control. >> >>Am I missing something, or is what I want to describe not really practical >>in a DTD? I'm perfectly comfortable leaving the singletonness out of my >>DTD (my application will detect duplication errors anyway), if that's the >>only answer. But if there *is* a way to capture this without waiting for >>XSchema to be finished, I'd love to hear it! > >The AND '&' connector in SGML covered this functionality, but isn't >included in XML. It can thus easily be described in a DTD, just not an >*XML* DTD. > > >-- Terje | Media Design in*Progress > > Software for Mac Web Professionals at > Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu May 13 22:28:09 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: XML::Parser In-Reply-To: <011c01beb5c9$6cabb980$15b36d80@cnidr.org> References: <011c01beb5c9$6cabb980$15b36d80@cnidr.org> Message-ID: * Travis Walsh | | I'm running XML:Parser 2.20 on linux. | | All of the newlines are stripped when I run a CharHandler. Should | this be happening and how can I stop it? If you mean then, yes, the XML recommendation requires it to be replaced with (except that pairs go to a single ). See section 2.11 in the XML recommendation for the details on this. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu May 13 22:30:39 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <87256770.006634D9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <373B3624.48F2287D@pacbell.net> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > > Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force tree search > times? Since it can obviously be turned into a DFA, it can be as efficient as a DFA (linear time). Though compiling a content model into a DFA is not consistently cheap, and I wonder how many folk will care to implement it both correctly and efficiently. My issue is the wisdom of having such features. They're not necessary, and the particular sort of "feature creep" I see happening now with XML is a worry to me. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu May 13 22:40:36 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <87256770.006634D9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <373B38AD.CDDE6D69@locke.ccil.org> roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: > What are the feelings of some folks who implemented SGML validators? If you had > to start with that and add NtoM repetition on top of that, where would that have > taken you? Or did SGML already provide both of these things? If so, what was the > general architecture used in some common ones? Why is the sky blue? IIRC the canonical way of doing (A & B & C) is to transform it into (A | B | C)* and then do a post-check that each of A, B, C appears exactly once. As opposed to brute-force expansion into a DFA. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Thu May 13 22:54:20 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions In-Reply-To: <373B3624.48F2287D@pacbell.net> References: <87256770.006634D9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: <199905132053.QAA26618@hesketh.net> At 01:29 PM 5/13/99 -0700, David Brownell wrote: >My issue is the wisdom of having such features. They're not >necessary, and the particular sort of "feature creep" I see >happening now with XML is a worry to me. Someone posted a long time ago that XML would be best off if it shrank consistently from version to version rather than sprouting new features. I don't remember who it was, but I wish their wisdom would guide future XML development. Right now, it looks like we're aiming for a baroque period in XML. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Thu May 13 23:45:59 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: XML::Parser References: <011c01beb5c9$6cabb980$15b36d80@cnidr.org> Message-ID: <373B47C0.2465DE36@pacbell.net> Lars Marius Garshol wrote: > > * Travis Walsh > | > | I'm running XML:Parser 2.20 on linux. > | > | All of the newlines are stripped when I run a CharHandler. Should > | this be happening and how can I stop it? > > If you mean then, yes, the XML recommendation requires it to be > replaced with (except that pairs go to a single ). > > See section 2.11 in the XML recommendation for the details on this. Careful. 2.11 applies to line ends: CR, CRLF, and LF are all mapped to a single LF. But if a CRLF constructed using character reference (as in your text above) won't be covered by 2.11 !! For example, see section 2.3.3 re attribute value normalization, which makes clear that you can emit a literal CRLF; and similarly 4.5 re construction of internal entity replacement texts. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu May 13 23:50:50 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * roddey@us.ibm.com | | I never really had any one say whether they thought that validation | that included both AND connectors and M to N repetition for any of | the connectors is feasible (meaning fast and compact and | maintainable and verifiable in my opinion, but tell me if you | disagree.) | | Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force | tree search times? I think so, yes. From skimming through the draft once and thinking a little about it I think it will cost noticeably more than normal validation, though. At least for my parser it seems that it will. My best idea so far is to create tracker objects that move through the content model as you parse the document. This is just a sketch in my head, though, and nothing is written or coded yet. (I'm currently working on support for datatypes and haven't gotten round to the structural schemas yet.) * Terje Norderhaug | | XML requires deterministic content models. This allows validators to | do their job without having to look more than one element ahead or | do brute force tree searches. Determinism doesn't have anything to do with it. You can still easily create deterministic finite state automata for XML content models (as described in DTDs, that is). Since the tags in XML remove any chances of ambiguity this doesn't cause any ambiguity in interpreting the markup. In fact, I need to add special code to my parser in order to warn about non-deterministic ones. In theory, you can do the same for what is described in the XML schemas specification, but in many cases you'll then be looking at a combinatorial explosion of automaton states. In fact, with DTDs like the XTEILITE DTD things can get pretty bad as it is. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 14 01:01:51 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! References: <012801be9d1b$87ed3460$dac566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Message-ID: <373AE4A6.228BBEDB@prescod.net> Martin Bryan wrote: > > Behaviour *must* stay. Behaviour in general, yes. Behavior attributes in XLink? Not in my opinion. > What we need is some mechanism for passing through behaviour > control properties from the instance to the XSLT. XSLT already has features for retrieving attributes. We don't need to do anything special for behavior. From my minimalist point of view the only extensions we need for XSLT are the ability to recognize and traverse anchors and links and the ability to control flow between a linking template rule and an ordinary template rule. > The behaviour > attribute provides us with a standardized point which we can query from > within XSLT to determine which types of behaviour a particular > instance of an object should have. The XSLT is inherently tied to a document type. So why would we need to standardize the attribute name used for specifying behavior? There is no problem if you want to call it martin:behavior and I want to call it paul:behavior. In fact, that is good, because you can call it "popup_yes_or_no" and I can call it "javascript_command" depending on the semantics of our respective document types. The last thing we want is to have a single attribute called behavior where you put "yes-popup-it-up" and I put "this.popup()" and to have browsers trying to guess the semantics of the behavior attribute. We should either standardize it completely or not at all. > (Paul is right to say this is really a "hints" > thing -but it is something more than a hint - it is a set of parameters that > can be used to control behaviour where appropriate.) In most document types it is *not* appropriate for the author to control behavior directly at all for exactly the same reason that it is not appropriate for them to control presentation (which is really a kind of behavior anyhow). In the minority where it is appropriate you can either use adhoc mechanisms like those described above ("popup_yes_or_no") or even define standards built on top of XLink ("BehaviorLinks"). We have to be very careful what goes in which level. You want xml:behavior in XML. Someone in the XSL list wants xml:script. Typographers are going to want xml:font. All of these are specific to either a particular document type or maybe a set of document types and should be specified in higher layers. > No we could not! In the first place XSL is not defining a GUI. In what sense is XSL not defining a GUI? > In the second > we could not begin to guess what the *user* requires. What if the user is > blind? None of your suggested behaviours would be of the least use. That isn't true: popup menus are meaningful to blind people. But even so we could have other hotspot object types for other media. That's exactly why we have to move it into a stylesheet. > What if > the behaviour said "convert this instances of of invoices to > euros before display" or "use the current exchange rate to express any > prices in the linked document in the user's local currency"? What > if the behaviour said "If this instance of the message is selected do > not allow > the user to select another of the listed options"? XSL has extension mechanisms both in the XSL transformation and (I think) in the generated document. > Again its a question of who is in control. We need to leave > authors with the right to make choices without having to be > stylesheet designers. You sound like the people who tell me that XML sucks compared to Word because it takes control away from the author. Usually taking away control is the goal. Then you give back control in the stylesheet. That's the whole basis for descriptive markup. If, in some particular case, you need to put control right into the document type you do that by creating a stylesheet that puts the right level of control in the document. Nothing stops you from making a element type or a element type. Just don't put either in the core language (or linking language) please! > One attribute to do this, rather than a whole set of customizable > ones that change from environment to environment is the only way we are > going to get transportable interactive documents. You and I agree that various document types have differnet behavioral needs. We agree that there is no way that we can define everything that needs to be done in advance. I think that we agree that usually behavior should be defined in stylesheets, though there are a few cases where it should be defined inline. You demand that when it is inline it should always be expressed in the same attribute. I claim that this will interfere with the goal of extensibility and interoperability. It would be like requiring every XML document type to have a "para" element type. If we disagreed on the meaning and structure of paragraphs (which we inevitably will) then the common element type name is useless. Some people will be lulled into thinking we have interoperability but when we actually try to apply our stylesheets or programs to each others documents they would crash. Instead, we should all choose our own names for paragraphs and the mere act of making that choice will make clear that we are actually expecting our paragraph types to have different *content*. Same with the behavior attribute. We should only have common attributes if we can decide in advance what the structure of the content will be. Otherwise let's not present an illusion of interoperability. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 14 01:05:51 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:11:59 2004 Subject: PIs in xml:schema References: <3.0.32.19990512163835.011c52a0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <002101be9cd7$9989d000$bb96fea9@w21tp> <373A227F.96A1186B@prescod.net> <004201be9cf7$984b9d20$7dcbfea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <373B1C30.5A93DF8C@prescod.net> Don Park wrote: > > I entirely agree with your opinion. Liam's view is that of concern over > misuse where I am more concerned with functionality. I believe XML > community can benefit from a guideline for proper use of PI as well as some > mechanism for registering PI target names. Meanwhile we need to encourage > HTML browsers to recognize PI so that we do not lose this important feature > of XML. Let me reiterate that in my mind the best way to handle this would be to allow these floating element types in XML schemas. So in a sense I am for the removal of PIs ... once they are properly replaced. I can think of an element-syntax replacement that would be far superior. Here is the beginning of a specification: The big problem with PIs is that they are not declared, namespace managed or internally structured (according to XML). Our replacement would have to allow a document to declare that it was using XHTML with "style binding inclusion extensions" or "xyz formatter page break extensions" or "zyx editor cursor position extensions". The fundamental characteristic of a floating element type is that an application that did not know about the floating element type could choose not to see elements of that type or their content. In this case the term "application" includes stylesheets and schemas. Further, it should be possible to identify a floating element type without reading the document's schema(s) -- or even reading the schema for the element type. As a very (very) rough strawperson proposal, lets say that we have a declaration: This syntax should be aligned with a) the NS spec, b) the xml:schema declaration syntax and c) the xml:schema ns/schema importation syntax. For now, we'll use this syntax. This declaration would say: a) elements in this namespace are floating elements b) they should conform to the referenced schema Floating elements would be invisible to the "main" schema and to each other. So conceptually a different instance of the schema processor would be required for each included schema. Some layer between SAX and a "float smart" application (including an XSL processor, XML Schema validator or DOM engine) would filter out floating elements that had not been specifically requested. You could register with the layer what floating elements you are interested in or simply ask for all of them. Stylesheets would register for the floating elements that they are interested in and only see those and no others. This is superior to PIs because today PIs mess up things like node-list-first...you might think that the title of a chapter would be its first node but not if there is a PI there! DOM-based applications would register recognized float schemas with the DOM-constructor (or ask for them all). Helper functions/methods would allow filtering at runtime. If we had all of this then I don't see why we would need the " Message-ID: <373B1DC1.7BA94F9C@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be replaced by XSLT > now that doc() and docref() have been defined? Does XLink not become > something akin to a standard set of XSLT templates used for handling URI > traversal? doc() and docref(), as well as unification with XPointer turn > XSLT into a generalized graph transformation language. Could the XLink spec > itself become an XSLT include file? Yes. I outlined the features that XSL would require in order to allow link recognition in the first message. It must be possible to ask the XSL processor whether an element is an anchor (not a link), what the other anchors are and what the properties of the linking element are. In other words the XSL processor must itself be able to recognize and traverse links. This really isn't a lot of work and I feel that it should go into XSLT version 1 but I suspect that the behavior attributes confused everybody (as they did me for a long time). Those attributes were well-intentioned but after a lot of thought I've come to the conclusion that they were a mistake. It took me more than a year to come to figure that out but I'm pretty confident now. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 14 02:04:51 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! References: <3.0.5.32.19990513083325.00c8fb80@corp> Message-ID: <373B1E94.2F9B361D@prescod.net> Walter Underwood wrote: > > I agree that they mix presentation and structure, but I also > feel that it is worthwhile to capture some common situations. > That is, allow people to define link "roles", but start out > with a few standard roles. This is analogous to including > xml:lang in the XML spec. These are two very different things: link types and anchor roles are semantic, not behavioral. I have no problem with a few pre-defined roles though I can't think of many common ones. > I'm hunting down a copy of the PCTE rationale, since it has a > nice description of the link roles in PCTE, and how they got > to that design. Good idea. > Meanwhile, maybe I should write a NOTE proposing a PI analogous > to the robots meta tag (). Another good idea. Published layered conventions are better than "builtins". Too many builtins turn out to be not very useful "standalone" is a perfect example. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Fri May 14 02:55:34 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Singletons in a DTD In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990513113709.009953a0@mail.accessone.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990513205127.0117db30@tiac.net> At 11:37 AM 5/13/99 -0700, David LeBlanc wrote: >Would (S1? | S2? | S3? | (C1 | C2 | C3)*) work? Nope. That would allow only one of S1, S2, or S3. I need to allow up to one of each, in any order. As was pointed out in a separate, but coincidentally related, thread, you'd have to put a * at the end of that, which suddenly loses singletonness. Alas. But I guess the & syntax from SGML is deceptively simple. I don't completely follow that other thread, but I gather it's hard to implement which is probably why they left it out of XML. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From liamquin at interlog.com Fri May 14 03:03:32 1999 From: liamquin at interlog.com (Liam R. E. Quin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? In-Reply-To: <373A227F.96A1186B@prescod.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 May 1999, Paul Prescod wrote: Paul Prescod wrote: > Don Park wrote: > > Thanks for clearing that up. Do you what the folks who "regard PIs as > > problematic second-class syntax" recommend for first-class out-of-band > > signaling mechanism? I wouldn't mind giving up PI if there was an > > alternative. > > Well, Liam Quin has been a constant critic of processing instructions. Heh... I always wanted to be remembered for something :-) > http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg03388.html > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9811/0203.html Well, if you read these -- especially the second -- you'll see that they are not arguments against processing instructions. The 2nd article argues against using a processing instruction to link a document to its style sheet in a way that was incompatible with the then current XLink draft, and also incompatible with the DOM. > [Paul's] response: > http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg03396.html > > As I said in that message, the important thing about processing > instructions is that they are invisible to content models. Yes. This can be good and bad. There's been a tendency in the SGML world to use them like significant comments -- if you've ever seen a large document with scattered all over it, you'll know what I mean. The usual reaction is that people in such environments write scripts to remove all the processing instructions. > If XML Schemas > invented a way to make elements invisible to content models (like SGML's > inclusion exceptions, but maybe only allowed at the top level) and a way > to add these inclusions to existing schemas easily then processing > instructions could be replaced by these "floating", element types. That > would be neat. I agree, and in some ways this could be where namespaces go, I think. > But if there are no floating element types then we still need processing > instructions. Well, you don't need them in a formal sense, but I agree there there is very strong motivation for them :-) Lee -- Liam Quin, independent SGML/XML/Unix/perl consultant l i a m q u i n at i n t e r l o g dot c o m xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 14 03:37:18 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion References: <373964B5.73572354@prescod.net> <373AFD0D.B06C392E@nsc.com> Message-ID: <373B73F5.D1F11205@prescod.net> [hopefully of interest to the three lists referenced...] Rick Geimer wrote: > > While I agree in principle with the notion that it is generally a bad idea to > create markup that specifies a behavior, there are many real world examples > where this is the only practical thing to do. I agree. > I will use as an example the > exchange standard for the Semiconductor industry, ECIX (formerly known a > Pinnacles, or PCIS). > > ... > > For this to work, the standard had to specify a element with a > predefined behavior, i.e. take the contents of the element who's id matches > the reflection's idref and redisplay it inline at the location of the > reflection element...the same idea as show="embed" and actuate="auto", if I > understand XLINK correctly. I don't think you do understand XLink correctly. Many people make this mistake. I did for a long time myself. I presume that the semantic of the "reflection" element is node-level transclusion. In other words, applications (not just browsers) built on top of Pinnacles probably act as if that other element has been copied element for element, character for character, etc. XLink doesn't support that. XLink describes a data model that includes concepts of "anchor" and "link." It does not have a concept of either text-level or node-level transclusion. First let me define node-level transclusion: node level transclusion is a transformation from a source grove (DOM, information set, whatever) to a result grove (...) that creates a result where the result grove has some nodes replaced by nodes reference by those nodes. This would have well-defined implications for hypertext links, APIs, stylesheet languages and so forth. In other words, it would be *well-defined*. A few months ago I started defining a transclusion mechanism for XML but there is a problem with differentiation references to the pre- and post- transformation document. I'm not clear if the XML world is ready to accept the fact that this kind of hard problem requires an equivalent to the grove model to be solved. My impression is that the W3C is not properly constituted to handle abstractions instead of languages but the information set project provides partial evidence that this might not be the case. Now let demonstrate that XLink does not provide transclusion. First, it does not specify a data model for the result of a transformation. Second, the things it links to are not restricted to XML elements. In other words, XLink can embed JPEGs, MPEGs and other data that does not have a concept of nodes (unless we import the ISO concept of groves and property sets for them). Therefore we *cannot* in general interpret the grove mode in terms of a grove to grove transformation. You could argue that I am being a purist. Embedding PDFs or JPEGs would "probably" have the behavior of just *displaying* them inline but embedding an XML element would have the behavior of node-level transcluding it. Browsers would "probably" implement it compatibly. Are you comfortable with these probably's and with trusting the like-mindedness and good will of browser vendors? If so, let me ask a few questions: * what if someone does NOT want node-level transclusion but instead want XML documents and elements to get the same kind of figure-style transclusion that PDFs or graphics would get? * what does the input of an auto/embed transclusion look like from the stylesheet or DOM? * what does an idref-based hyperlink into the embedded document look like? What does it mean if the inclusion duplicates an ID? * how do you reference (from an XPointer) the reference-defining element instead of the referenced element in the result tree? * is the validity of the resulting document checked? is a valid referent of an XPointer that is restricted to pointing to *valid* documents of a particular type? * does user/embed mean that when you "invoke" the link the document structure changes? Should stylesheets be automatically reapplied? Does the DOM change? etc. I am not very confident of interoperable implementations by the major browser vendors. Personally, I feel that I would rather wait for a real transclusion mechanism even if it means I have to wait for a W3C grove model and addressing mechanism that can differentiate a reference to an input document from a reference to the result document. If you want to use a stylesheet to *render* auto/embed as node-level transclusion (and answer all of these questions in your stylesheet) then you certainly can. But the transformation you have chosen is not at all mandated by the XLink specification. Someone else could implement it differently and be just as right (or wrong) as you. So is half a standard better than none? Debatable. When it comes to linking, XLink does everything you need. Without behavior it is a beautifully small, simple and complete specification. > I don't think it would be appropriate for a standard to mandate a particular > stylesheet language along with the markup to make this work (though the only > way I have been able to get this to work with any XML tools today is with > XSL). Nor do I. I think we need real node-level transclusion desperately. I also think that it is a hard problem that must be solved properly after implementing the proper logical infrastructure. XLink doesn't do it and it probably wasn't meant to. Transclusion and linking are different. Their underlying data models are different. Linking is about describing a relationship between two nodes. The data model is "link", "locator", "anchor". Transclusion is about building a new grove from an old one. The data model is about "source tree" and "result tree." If XLink was meant to be interpreted as node-level transclusion then either the XLink or XPointer specification would mandate the meaning of a reference into a transclusion-expanded document. > If this > kind of link behavior can be specified in a standard way with XLINK, all the > better. I hope by now that I have demonstrated that it cannot be. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Fri May 14 07:51:41 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <003701be9dcd$ade560e0$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Jonathon Borden wrote: > Is there anything within XLink itself that cannot be replaced by XSLT >now that doc() and docref() have been defined? Does XLink not become >something akin to a standard set of XSLT templates used for handling URI >traversal? doc() and docref(), as well as unification with XPointer turn >XSLT into a generalized graph transformation language. Could the XLink spec >itself become an XSLT include file? I expect that doc() and/or doc(ref) can be used to implement XLink, but not to specify what is to be linked to within the source document. You still need some generalized technique to identify when the included templates should be applied. (I still have problems with working out how docref() can be used to process the query part of an URL though!) Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri May 14 09:03:25 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions In-Reply-To: <373B38AD.CDDE6D69@locke.ccil.org> References: <87256770.006634D9.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <373B38AD.CDDE6D69@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: * John Cowan | | IIRC the canonical way of doing (A & B & C) is to transform it into | (A | B | C)* and then do a post-check that each of A, B, C appears | exactly once. As opposed to brute-force expansion into a DFA. Hmmm. It sounds as if this could be extended to handle {n,m}A as well. Just transform it into A+ (or *, depending on n) and do a post-check that the number is correct. In fact, this solution looks relatively easy to implement. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Fri May 14 10:35:41 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18CF@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > > Dave, > Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as > Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? > > Perhaps because CDF isn't XML? http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/channel/cdf1/cdf1.asp http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/cdf/reference/xml.asp Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri May 14 11:11:11 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE7B@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > XML requires deterministic content models. This allows > validators to do their job without having to look more than one element ahead > or do brute force tree searches. It's not what XML requires that counts, it's what users require. What you're saying is that if you have an integrity constraint that XML parsers are congenitally incapable of enforcing, you had better implement it yourself, the hard way, in the application. I don't remember SQL ever adopting the view that the only integrity constraints you were allowed to specify were those that could be evaluated in linear time. In fact, the refusal to build implementation-based limitations into the language was one of the major reasons for the success of SQL. (In implementing GedML I discovered that the integrity constraints that I could specify in the DTD were such a pathetic subset of the total that I might as well do all the validation in the application and ignore the DTD capabilities entirely - especially as I had no way via the SAX API of knowing whether the parser had done any validation or not). Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Fri May 14 11:46:36 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Paul Prescod wrote: >You and I agree that various document types have differnet behavioral needs. We agree that there is no way that we can define everything that needs to be done in advance. I think that we agree that usually behavior should be defined in stylesheets, though there are a few cases where it should be defined inline. Not my words. I think that there are times when you want to be able to contol the behaviour inline, not define the behaviour inline. I want to provide a declarative property, not a procedural one. >You demand that when it is inline it should always be expressed in the same attribute. I claim that this will interfere with the goal of extensibility and interoperability. Only if we have a common attribute will we be able to share processing modules among applications. My goal is to be able to have processing modules that I can import into any XSL stylesheet that processes a document using XLinks to allow me to link from the request for data to my local (or external) databases, undertaking appropriate transformations to turn the data stored in the warehouse into the form that the author of the document wants it. While I can introduce your suggested martin:behaviour attributes into my DTD I cannot introduce them into someone elses DTD. If I am using an industry standard DTD that uses XLinks how can I control standardized processes that are known to work in my environment Saying I should just change stylesheets does not necessarily work as it depends on where control of stylesheet association takes place. At present we have not mechanism for local overrides of stylesheets. What I want is a mechanism that will allow me to control the working of imported sytlesheet modules on an instance by instance basis, without having to write special instances of stylesheets for each document instance. Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Fri May 14 12:24:34 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Multiple(?) / Reuse of Parsers Message-ID: <000f01be9df3$db69a460$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Hi, I'm currently working with an application that uses both DOM and SAX for parsing XML. The application creates a DOM representation of a document, and then uses the SAX api to parse a second document using the event driven interface. Currently I'm creating two parsers. One for the DOM representation, and one for the SAX parsing (SAXParser and DOMParser classes in XML4J). The latest version of this parser allows multiple parsers to be created (just downloading, so haven't tested it yet), but am I right in thinking that this isn't generally true for other parsers? Also, *should* I create a second parser when parsing the second document (through SAX), or can I reuse the first parser once the DOM representation has been created? I'm concerned there may be some 'gotchas'. I'm going to be reading the DOM representation based on the events from the SAX style parse. The 2.0.6. version of XML4J gives me a "InputSource stack out-of-sync" message at the moment - which I think may be because I'm creating two parsers which it doesn't support - hence the download of 2.0.9. which I'm about to try. Any thoughts, suggestions? Cheers, L. ================================================================== "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less" ---William of Occam ================================================================== Leigh Dodds Eml: ldodds@ingenta.com ingenta ltd Tel: +44 1225 826619 BUCS Building, University of Bath Fax: +44 1225 826283 ================================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Fri May 14 14:09:24 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Fw: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <006c01be9e02$33294b20$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> The Xlink thread is fascinating because it is a concrete manifestation of an abstract issue dealt in other threads (e.g. the OO/scripting thread). Viewed this way, I think the argument tends to Paul's side. XML is not a programming language; it is a data language. The "behavior" attribute doesn't sit well in a data language. Paul's alternative - allow attaching arbitrary attributes to an XLink, with application specific semantics - makes much more sense. Given the semantics of "behavior" is already application specific, why insist on a fixed name? This is only a way to ensure namespace problems. Much better to have "myapp:behavior"; this way you know the exact semantics of the attribute with no ambiguity, or know that you can't parse this specific attribute. Martin Bryan wrote: >Paul Prescod wrote: >>You and I agree that various document types have differnet behavioral >>needs. We agree that there is no way that we can define everything that >>needs to be done in advance. I think that we agree that usually behavior >>should be defined in stylesheets, though there are a few cases where it >>should be defined inline. Well, at least I agree :-) >Not my words. I think that there are times when you want to be able to >contol the behaviour inline, not define the behaviour inline. I want to >provide a declarative property, not a procedural one. Any attempt to "control the behavior inline" means "give an algorithm fot handling this link" and while this may be done decleratively, it is way out of scope for XML. >>You demand that when it is inline it should >>always be expressed in the same attribute. I claim that this will >>interfere with the goal of extensibility and interoperability. > >Only if we have a common attribute will we be able to share processing >modules among applications. My goal is to be able to have processing modules >that I can import into any XSL stylesheet that processes a document using >XLinks to allow me to link from the request for data to my local (or >external) databases, undertaking appropriate transformations to turn the >data stored in the warehouse into the form that the author of the document >wants it. Here's the core of the problem. XML is trying to hold a very long stick at both ends. On the one hand, we want to be able to define domain-specific tag sets and attributes; on the other hand we want universal clients to process them. Something has to give. The current solution is to require clients to process a well-know small set of standard XML languages (e.g., XSL FOs), and have someone provide an XSLT "stylesheet" (horrible name) to convert the input document into one of them. This allows XML itself to be domain-neutral, and still allow for universal clients. So far so good. What Martin is pushing for is making the "stylesheet" itself - or at least parts of it - universal. This is a misguided goal IMVHO. It is on par to requiring standard XML elements for "author", "title", "version", ... to ease document retreival. The way I see it, if XML is to define any form of predefined elements or attributes these had better be elements or attributes which are useful and _have the same semantics_ for each possible application. Otherwise, don't bother. >While I can introduce your suggested martin:behaviour attributes into my DTD >I cannot introduce them into someone elses DTD. Actually, someone else can refer to your "martin:behavior" attribute in his DTD (well, assuming namespace enabled DTDs but that's a separate issue). People could set standards for such attributes in particular domains - for example, "browser:behavior" as opposed to "vlsi:behavior" or "publishing:behavior" - assuming 'browser', 'vlsi' and 'publishing' refer to appropriate URIs, of course. Note I'm not enthused by "javascript:behavior", since it is inconsistent with the XML-as-data-language view. >If I am using an industry >standard DTD that uses XLinks how can I control standardized processes that >are known to work in my environment No, you can use an industry-standard DTD to good effect - it is just that the industry in question isn't "the XML industry"; instead it might be "the XML browsing industry", and the standard isn't "XML", it is "XML as used in browsers". There's simply no way a browser will be able to correctly handle links whose behavior is specific to vlsi design process, unless someone explicitly codes a stylesheet which explains how to do so. Having a fixed name would only make the life of the stylesheet writer that much more difficult - if not downright impossible. >Saying I should just change stylesheets does not necessarily work as it >depends on where control of stylesheet association takes place. At present >we have not mechanism for local overrides of stylesheets. What I want is a >mechanism that will allow me to control the working of imported sytlesheet >modules on an instance by instance basis, without having to write special >instances of stylesheets for each document instance. That's a valid concern, but it has little to do with the XLink proposal and the behavior attribute. Here CSS has an advantage over XSLT - it is much easier to provide overrides in CSS then it is in XSLT. Of course, if you are a member of the XML -> XSLT -> XML + CSS camp, then there's your (partial) solution... The way I see it, the code vs. data debate hasn't been settled yet. The current accepted technology, HTML, is a hybrid of both and therefore nobody likes it. XML is on the pure data side, but its success is yet to be seen. Java is on the code's side, and its success is also not clear (the Jini project, for example, demonstrates what this approach can achieve if seriously adopted). The ultimate test of both approaches is trying to use a document/object in a system it wasn't designed for. After all, there's no such thing as a "universal: client - it either displays on the screen, or activates speakers, or prints, or modifies databases, or something. The code approach is less suitable for adapting to unexpected applications. Given a pieces of java code which draws on the screen, it is very difficult to convert it to code reading text on the speakers or writing to a database record - unless it was designed with that in mind in the first place, of course. But the data approach is only slightly better; it keeps the data the same, but needs a new stylesheet per each application (for example, one for viewing on the screen and one for playing over speakers). How likely is it that people will bother to provide an aural stylesheet for their XML language? The best solution is to define standard languages/interfaces allowing the same data/code to be shared across applications. This works equally well for both approaches, but is very difficult to do. Hitting the right level of abstraction for combining domains (e.g., display and speech) is very difficult (hint: FOs are not the right level :-). Again, the data approach has a slight advantage here - since one only needs to specify the "data" and not the "behavior" specific to the application, it already starts more general. Which brings us back to why "behavior" must go :-) Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Fri May 14 15:41:32 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion In-Reply-To: <373B73F5.D1F11205@prescod.net> Message-ID: <001c01be9e0e$50a25820$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Paul Prescod wrote: > > Now let demonstrate that XLink does not provide transclusion. First, it > does not specify a data model for the result of a transformation. Second, > the things it links to are not restricted to XML elements. In other words, > XLink can embed JPEGs, MPEGs and other data that does not have a concept > of nodes (unless we import the ISO concept of groves and property sets for > them). Therefore we *cannot* in general interpret the grove mode in terms > of a grove to grove transformation. This is an excellent point. In XSLT 6.2.2 the issue of doc(uri) pointing to something other than an XML node is noted as an unresolved editorial point. > > You could argue that I am being a purist. Embedding PDFs or JPEGs would > "probably" have the behavior of just *displaying* them inline but > embedding an XML element would have the behavior of node-level > transcluding it. Browsers would "probably" implement it compatibly. Would links to binary resources have the same status as NOTATION's in terms of the XML information set? A set of notations could map to the returned content-type and a browser would deal with such a 'notation' in the same mechanism that a MIME content-type is dealt with (e.g. in-line, plug-in etc). > > I am not very confident of interoperable implementations by the major > browser vendors. Personally, I feel that I would rather wait for a real > transclusion mechanism even if it means I have to wait for a W3C grove > model and addressing mechanism that can differentiate a reference to an > input document from a reference to the result document. Or, we can adopt the ISO grove model once the XML property set/information set is defined. Is there any reason to reinvent the wheel in terms of groves? Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Fri May 14 15:51:03 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Content model probs Message-ID: <000a01be9e10$abcf2fa0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Hi, I've being toying with a content model now and I think my brain must be overloaded because I can't think of the best way to format it so it'll parse. Basically I want to say that a tag should: 1. Contain #PCDATA, *OR* 2. an optional tag X followed by zero or more occurences of tag Y I had thought something like : (#PCDATA|(X?, Y*) but that doesn't seem to parse. At the moment I've had to settle on (#PCDATA|X|Y)* just so I can continue working, and manually check for the moment that I'm building documents which I consider legal. Any of you XML gurus got any suggestions? Thanks! L. p.s. A variation I'd also like to consider is changing the model such that 2. (above) becomes: 2. zero or more occurences of X, followed by zero or more occurences of Y. In this case X,Y can be interspersed. In the former, X *must* be before Y if its provided. ================================================================== "Never Do With More, What Can Be Achieved With Less" ---William of Occam ================================================================== Leigh Dodds Eml: ldodds@ingenta.com ingenta ltd Tel: +44 1225 826619 BUCS Building, University of Bath Fax: +44 1225 826283 ================================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri May 14 16:05:43 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Content model probs In-Reply-To: Leigh Dodds's message of Fri, 14 May 1999 14:50:05 +0100 Message-ID: <199905141405.PAA05704@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > 1. Contain #PCDATA, *OR* > 2. an optional tag X followed by zero or more occurences of tag Y Can't be done. Content models that include #PCDATA and elements are restricted to the form (#PCDATA|x|y|...)*. > At the moment I've had to settle on (#PCDATA|X|Y)* Yes, that's the best you can do. If you want to do better, you will need to have two different element types for the two cases. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Fri May 14 16:17:32 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:00 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <01BE9DF3.3509EFD0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> John Cowan wrote: "IIRC the canonical way of doing (A & B & C) is to transform it into (A | B | C)* and then do a post-check that each of A, B, C appears exactly once. ..." It seems that this approach would require the parser to perform look ahead for the following content model: ( (A & B & C), C, C, C ) This content model would be transformed into: ( (A | B | C)*, C, C, C ) The transformed content model is non-deterministic. For example, the parser would have to look ahead when parsing the first C in the following input: C B A C C C The original content model is deterministic; the parser would not have to look ahead to determine that the first C (in C B A C C C) matches the (A & B & C) portion of the original content model. Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Fri May 14 18:52:09 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Multiple(?) / Reuse of Parsers References: <000f01be9df3$db69a460$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <373C546B.346A0BE5@pacbell.net> As it says in the SAX spec for the "Parser" interface: SAX parsers are reusable but not re-entrant: the application may reuse a parser object (possibly with a different input source) once the first parse has completed successfully, but it may not invoke the parse() methods recursively within a parse. So, reusing the parser must be OK. Re should you be able to create more than one -- certainly. Complain to any parser vendor that doesn't let you do that; there's no reason to prevent that from being done, it's rather basic functionality. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Fri May 14 19:03:54 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: XML validation Message-ID: <004701be9e23$b793bff0$2ff96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Bryan Cooper > In any case, what I feel is that its EASIER for me to setup an XML validation > thang than what I see as a separate syntax in the DTD world I am not particularly proposing a syntax: using semi-BNF things like XML content models or putting them in element syntax wasnt my point. (And, certainly, I am not saying that validation needs to be done at the XML processor, which is your other point.) My point is there are lots of other structures in an XML document which at the moment cannot be validated. Newbies ask a predictable set of questions: first "can I have required but in any order?" (e.g., SGML's &), then "can I specify that if I have a size attribute you must also specify a units attribute?". And in SGML people wished there was a way to constrain internal links to particular kinds of elements. I think these would be useful and inexpensive forms of validation to have (I think that was the point of your 50 lines of Python comment). If we already have validator code that checks a DOM NodeList (the element's contents), I don't know why it would be so difficult to have validators to check the NamedNodeMaps (attributes), and to check what is at the other end of an IDREF (or even an XLink for that matter). The XML Schema:Structures draft seems too conservative in this area: if it doesnt give substantial advantages over markup declarations I dont see the point: a little nicer improvement to content models for database support and an enormous increase in size. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sean at westcar.com Fri May 14 19:10:09 1999 From: sean at westcar.com (Sean Brown) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Icon Contest Results Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.19990514130946.00916620@mail.javanet.com> The results have been tabulated. Thanks to everyone involved! http://www.javanet.com/~sbrown/icons.html -Sean xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tconway at walldata.com Fri May 14 19:15:44 1999 From: tconway at walldata.com (tconway@walldata.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Content model probs Message-ID: You could define something like Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990514133735.0106a488@tiac.net> Ooooh, pretty! What's the intellectual property status of it? It strikes me that you might want to squeeze a TM on there someplace, and license it's use freely provided everything they are using it on is compliant/conformant to the spec (probably just well-formed, not necessarily valid, dontchathink?). Maybe someone over at Gnu will help you write the license, even. That way, the XML blunders in IE5 would prevent MS from using it until they get their act together. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From streich at wpsi.com Fri May 14 20:03:46 1999 From: streich at wpsi.com (Robert Streich) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion In-Reply-To: <373B73F5.D1F11205@prescod.net> Message-ID: <000501be9e34$21da5f80$de64a8c0@laptop-ros.wpsi.com> > First let me define node-level transclusion: node level transclusion is a > transformation from a source grove (DOM, information set, whatever) to a > result grove (...) that creates a result where the result grove has some > nodes replaced by nodes reference by those nodes. This would have > well-defined implications for hypertext links, APIs, stylesheet languages > and so forth. In other words, it would be *well-defined*. I think your definition here is wrong, Paul. "Transclusion" as described by Nelson would effectively link two groves. You can't copy the nodes into your own grove, you have to traverse to the grove that contains the transclusion and then traverse back at the end of it. The difference between transclusion and inclusion is that the context of the transcluded content is still retained. In Nelson's application model, transclusions opened a viewport that was nested inside your document. This way you could scroll above and below the transcluded content to see its original context. But I do agree with your original statement--auto/embed is not node transclusion. bob Robert Streich Work Process Systems, Inc. Houston, TX xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri May 14 20:42:30 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion References: <000501be9e34$21da5f80$de64a8c0@laptop-ros.wpsi.com> Message-ID: <373C6D11.4ED384E7@locke.ccil.org> Robert Streich wrote: > In Nelson's application model, > transclusions opened a viewport that was nested inside your document. This > way you could scroll above and below the transcluded content to see its > original context. Sounds like the HTML 4.0 IFRAME element. AFAIK, IE 4.x and 5.x implement this, but no version of Netscape does yet. (Maybe Mozilla, I don't know.) You can see such a thing at http://www.ccil.org/~cowan/XML/RDF-made-easy.html , which transcludes Tim Bray's intro to RDF. If your browser doesn't grok IFRAME, you get a "Wouldn't it be nice if I could transclude here" message. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Fri May 14 20:45:01 1999 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion In-Reply-To: Your message of "Fri, 14 May 1999 13:03:55 CDT." <000501be9e34$21da5f80$de64a8c0@laptop-ros.wpsi.com> Message-ID: <199905141842.UAA25024@chimay.loria.fr> Please, stop cross-posting... Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Sat May 15 00:12:16 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6AB3@master.design-intelligence.com> > XML requires deterministic content models. This allows > validators to do their job without having to look more than one element ahead > or do brute force tree searches. The validator may not have to look more than 1 element ahead, but it does need to look elements behind or construct a tree representation for the pattern due to optional elements: With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com ---------- From: Kay Michael [SMTP:Michael.Kay@icl.com] Sent: Friday, May 14, 1999 2:11 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: Again wit da AND and Repetitions > XML requires deterministic content models. This allows > validators to do their job without having to look more than one element ahead > or do brute force tree searches. It's not what XML requires that counts, it's what users require. What you're saying is that if you have an integrity constraint that XML parsers are congenitally incapable of enforcing, you had better implement it yourself, the hard way, in the application. I don't remember SQL ever adopting the view that the only integrity constraints you were allowed to specify were those that could be evaluated in linear time. In fact, the refusal to build implementation-based limitations into the language was one of the major reasons for the success of SQL. (In implementing GedML I discovered that the integrity constraints that I could specify in the DTD were such a pathetic subset of the total that I might as well do all the validation in the application and ignore the DTD capabilities entirely - especially as I had no way via the SAX API of knowing whether the parser had done any validation or not). Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sat May 15 01:54:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6AB3@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <373CB780.AD87D279@pacbell.net> Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: > > > XML requires deterministic content models. This allows > > validators to do their job without having to look more > > than one element ahead > > or do brute force tree searches. > > The validator may not have to look more than 1 element ahead, but it does > need to look elements behind or construct a tree representation for the > pattern due to optional elements: > > > > > > With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. Actually, the content model for "x" is in error there, so any XML processor is allowed to report an error however rudely it chooses to do so. That content model is "ambigious". - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Sat May 15 02:12:50 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <87256772.00010C7D.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >>Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force tree search >>times? > >XML requires deterministic content models. This allows validators to do >their job without having to look more than one element ahead or do brute >force tree searches. > Actually it does not require deterministic models, it just allows you to check for them. And, I guess its not really what XML does or does not do that's in question here, its what the new upcoming schema spec proposes to do that's at issue. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat May 15 02:14:40 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Fw: XLink: behavior must go! References: <006c01be9e02$33294b20$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <373CB9E9.9CDFBFB0@prescod.net> Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: > > Note I'm not enthused by "javascript:behavior", > since it is inconsistent with the XML-as-data-language view. I am also not enthused by that idea. I am pandering^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H demonstrating that the stylesheet-centric idea is still compatible with an ultimately flexible, inline behavioral definition. Whether that definition is compatible with good design is another question. > The way I see it, the code vs. data debate hasn't been settled yet. The > current accepted technology, HTML, is a hybrid of both and therefore nobody > likes it. XML is on the pure data side, but its success is yet to be seen. > Java is on the code's side, and its success is also not clear (the Jini > project, for example, demonstrates what this approach can achieve if > seriously adopted). Could you outline what you consider to be the successes of Jini? The idea of my light switch communicating with my refrigerator via migrating Java objects strikes me as kewl but highly brittle. The declarative part of an API specification leaves so much unsaid. I would feel much more comfortable if I heard that Jini was a set of APIs *and* data formats. > The ultimate test of both approaches is trying to use a document/object in a > system it wasn't designed for. > >... > > The code approach is less suitable for adapting to unexpected applications. Hey, doesn't that mean "we win?" According to you the migrating objects mechanism is "almost" as good as migrating data but "almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. Seriously: One virtue of migrating objects is that you can build data-based solutions on top of them. You just tell your migrant objects to stay put and send messages instead. This means that the two can actually work together pretty nicely. The light switch doesn't have to send an object to define its capabilities: it can send a message. But it may be too complex to define the GUI for the object completely declaratively (maybe XUL isn't enough) so you could send some code instead. My problem is that most people don't understand that there is a spectrum and a conflict here. So they often go straight for the programmatic solution without verifying that a declarative solution is impossible. They sense that the programmatic solution is more powerful but don't recognize the long-term costs (a perfect example: the recent (informal) proposal). This leads to abominations such as Postscript, Display Postscript, .bashrc's etc. The Unix community in particular is going to have to come to grips with the idea that more powerful is not necessarily the same as better. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat May 15 02:14:47 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Message-ID: <373CBA12.E4DA7C78@prescod.net> Martin Bryan wrote: > > Not my words. I think that there are times when you want to be able to > contol the behaviour inline, not define the behaviour inline. I want to > provide a declarative property, not a procedural one. I think some people are going to want a little of each. I don't advise either one in general but maybe in some cases it makes sense. > >You demand that when it is inline it should > > always be expressed in the same attribute. I claim that this will > > interfere with the goal of extensibility and interoperability. > > Only if we have a common attribute will we be able to share processing > modules among applications. If you define common values for the attribute then I will be able to evaluate the usefulness of your idea. But if you are just talking about a common attribute name then I'll refer you back to my argument that this is worse than nothing because it encourags people to make incompatible documents and pretend that they are compatible by virtue of the attribute names. How do I map attribute values to real, honest to goodness behaviors in my browser? I'm not clear what your proposal is nor how it relates to the behavior attributes in XLink today. > My goal is to be able to have processing modules > that I can import into any XSL stylesheet that processes a document using > XLinks to allow me to link from the request for data to my local (or > external) databases, undertaking appropriate transformations to turn the > data stored in the warehouse into the form that the author of the document > wants it. So you want the features of the whole grove model and API and you think that a single standardized attribute name is going to give it to you? Nevertheless, fetching data out of your database is not a behavior problem. Transforming nodes is not, according to my terminology "behavior". It is addressing or "viewing" or even "rendering". In the "web model" the way to do this is to define a new form of URL: sql://[select * from blah]. Of course the URL model does not have a way to turn that into nodes. That's why I say you need the grove model. I guess the "web way" to do this is: http://www.mysite.com/cgi-bin/fetchdata?select * from blah > While I can introduce your suggested martin:behaviour attributes into my DTD > I cannot introduce them into someone elses DTD. If that's true then that's a problem with DTDs or XMLSchema's. It is generally useful to be able to subtype and extend other people's DTDs. Architectural forms allow it but so will XMLSchema. > If I am using an industry > standard DTD that uses XLinks how can I control standardized processes that > are known to work in my environment If you are talking about fetching data then you should use CGIs or groves. Its an addressing problem, not a behavior problem. > Saying I should just change stylesheets does not necessarily work as it > depends on where control of stylesheet association takes place. At present > we have not mechanism for local overrides of stylesheets. What I want is a > mechanism that will allow me to control the working of imported sytlesheet > modules on an instance by instance basis, without having to write special > instances of stylesheets for each document instance. Once again you are talking about a flaw in another part of the system. I don't quite understand your need but it seems far afield of a behavior attribute. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat May 15 02:21:34 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: What is W3C's official position on use of PI? References: Message-ID: <373CBA2E.7225B353@prescod.net> "Liam R. E. Quin" wrote: > > Yes. This can be good and bad. There's been a tendency in the SGML > world to use them like significant comments -- if you've ever seen a > large document with scattered all over it, you'll know > what I mean. The usual reaction is that people in such environments > write scripts to remove all the processing instructions. I tend to consider the term "significant comment" an oxymoron in the text processing context. If something is flagged as data-model-invisible it should be data-model-invisible -- completely. Still, in my classes I've borrowed your idea and turned it around. I say that comments (the familiar concept) are a type of processing instruction designed for the processor called the "human brain." Other software should not expect to understand them and should ignore them. > I agree, and in some ways this could be where namespaces go, I think. Please see my recent proposal in another message. I think it formalizes that idea. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mscardin at us.oracle.com Sat May 15 06:17:12 1999 From: mscardin at us.oracle.com (Mark Scardina) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: ANN: Oracle XML Parser for Java v1.0.1.3 - Maintenance Message-ID: <000001be9e89$c73d15d0$cd1e2382@us.oracle.com> The first maintenance release of the Oracle XML Parser for Java is available for download at http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml. This is a bug-fix release. The following are included features and specs: Supports validation and non-validation modes Built-in Error Recovery until fatal error. Supports DTD Caching for improved performance. Supports W3C XML 1.0 Recommendation. Intergrated Document Object Model (DOM) Level 1.0 API Integrated SAX 1.0 API Supports W3C Proposed Recomendation for XML Namespaces Supports documents in the following encodings: UTF-8 BIG 5 UTF-16 GB2312 ISO-10646-UCS-2 EUC-JP ISO-10646-UCS-4 EUC-KR US-ASCII KOI8-R EBCDIC-CP-* ISO-2022-JP ISO-8859-1to -9 ISO-2022-KR Shift_JIS Support is available in the XML Forum on OTN to provide a collaborative area for bug reporting, technical support, and discussing other Oracle/XML issues. This forum will be used for external as well as internal beta testers. Mark V. Scardina Sr. Product Manager - Core and XML Development Server Technologies - Oracle Corporation Oracle XML News http://www.oracle.com/xml xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Sat May 15 12:25:22 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <005701be9ebd$165c2e20$25c566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >you can use an industry-standard DTD to good effect - it is just that the industry in question isn't "the XML industry"; instead it might be "the XML browsing industry", and the standard isn't "XML", it is "XML as used in browsers". There's simply no way a browser will be able to correctly handle links whose behavior is specific to vlsi design process, unless someone explicitly codes a stylesheet which explains how to do so. The problem I am trying to deal with is not related to "the XML industry" or "the XML browser industry" - instead it relates to a set of DTDs that share common-features which apply to a wide range of applications shared by a wide range of industries. If we are to develop sharable toolsets we need to develop sharable architectures. The key point is that I want, in the longer term, to replace the current practice of relentlessly copying data from one message to another (up to 10 times in some processes) with a process that allows linking to the original source of the data. The way this will be done will depend on the type of the data being linked to and on the local conditions for access to original documents. OK, I can define a generalized architecture that would be widely used for this purpose, and call it edi:behaviour, but as this is widely required by others why not also have it as a standard mechanism for passing link instance dependent information to the link processor? It should not be necessary to have individual stylesheets for individual instances of messages. It should not be necessary to redefine processes for each DTD that uses the shared information. We need to import standardized modules that will process standardized namespaces of elements in ways that depend on the conditions applying at the point at which the located data is to be retrieved from. Paul Prescod wrote: >So you want the features of the whole grove model and API and you think that a single standardized attribute name is going to give it to you? I have given up hope of getting an extensible grove model (note the key word at the beginning) or a proper API for managing the associations between XSLT and XML document instances (note that it is the instance I worry about, not its formal model). This is why I want to introduce, as a stop gap, a single architectural form that will apply to one class of objects in which I know from experience there is a particular problem. I would dearly love a better thought-out, long term solution based on proper architectural form definition, but in the meantime need to retain the stop-gap attribute to manage link processing. Don't throw out the bathwater until you know you have something to give the baby to drink. [They have just announced that they have cut the water supply to my house, which made me think of this variant of the metaphor!] Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sat May 15 01:54:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:01 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6AB3@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <373CB780.AD87D279@pacbell.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: Size: 1602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990515/1b07fccb/attachment.bat From dave at userland.com Sat May 15 16:08:13 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18CF@eukbant101.ericss on.se> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990515070125.01c95b90@mail.userland.com> I haven't answered this question because I don't know the answer. Who knows how anyone else thinks? Especially a big corporation that's just been acquired by an even bigger corporation? Anyway, from my POV, CDF is a dead horse. We did some work with it when it first came out, but it seemed fairly useless and never went anywhere that I could see. Beyond that, I have not got a clue what CDF was supposed to do that anyone wanted. RSS on the other hand is quite useful, and lots of people are getting on the RSS train, so of course we supported it enthusiastically. That's the big picture from where I sit. Dave At 01:36 AM 5/14/99 , Matthew Sergeant (EML) wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > > > > Dave, > > Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as > > Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? > > > > > Perhaps because CDF isn't XML? > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/channel/cdf1/cdf1.asp > http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/cdf/reference/xml.asp > > Matt. > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 15 16:36:15 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990515070125.01c95b90@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, Hummmm, I understand that you have a very subjective view of it. Its OK, we can have subjective views as long as we don't state that they are objective :-) My own subjective opinion. Don't expect competing species to respect a common standard especially if a would be standard has been brought by the competitor. It just gives a clue that XML don't resolve the unity of languages. Contrary to that it encourage diversity and everybody can invent its own language. This is why, now just for channel or topic handling you have (just a few of what's out there) - CDF - RSS - RDF - topic maps In fact, what's marvelous about XML is that now each one can invent its own HTML :-) or its own meta data language. Seriously speaking, RSS is popular in the Netscape ecosystem and CDF in the Microsoft ecosystem. Which one is better? Its a question of: in which ecosystem you are. Never expect a Netscape specie to tell you that CDF is good and do not expect a Microsoft specie to tell you that RSS is good. Only some rare species living in both ecosystems can tell you that both do the job and in fact are about the same as long as you have the right interpreter to decode the language. And that the main perceive quality is dependant on the interpreter quality and how data is presented. And even o this subject, taste differ. And this is good. Its only a matter of ecosystem, taste and often a question of religion :-) My own religion tell me that I cannot use CDF or RSS because big money is reincarnated into these products :-)))) just kidding :-))) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Dave Winer Sent: Saturday, May 15, 1999 10:04 AM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: RE: A milestone in XML I haven't answered this question because I don't know the answer. Who knows how anyone else thinks? Especially a big corporation that's just been acquired by an even bigger corporation? Anyway, from my POV, CDF is a dead horse. We did some work with it when it first came out, but it seemed fairly useless and never went anywhere that I could see. Beyond that, I have not got a clue what CDF was supposed to do that anyone wanted. RSS on the other hand is quite useful, and lots of people are getting on the RSS train, so of course we supported it enthusiastically. That's the big picture from where I sit. Dave At 01:36 AM 5/14/99 , Matthew Sergeant (EML) wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > > > > Dave, > > Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as > > Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? > > > > > Perhaps because CDF isn't XML? > > http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/channel/cdf1/cdf1.asp > http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/cdf/reference/xml.asp > > Matt. > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Sat May 15 20:19:21 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions In-Reply-To: <373CB780.AD87D279@pacbell.net> from "David Brownell" at May 14, 99 04:53:37 pm Message-ID: <199905151830.OAA29572@locke.ccil.org> Mark McDonald wrote: > > > > > > > > > > With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. And David Brownell replied: > Actually, the content model for "x" is in error there, so any > XML processor is allowed to report an error however rudely it > chooses to do so. That content model is "ambigious". I can only assume that both of you are suffering from brain farts. Any "x" that contains anything but an "a" or a "b" is obviously invalid. You are talking as if the above declarations were: Element declarations refer to lexically apparent objects (elements), not to mere groups of elements defined by pseudo-BNF. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat May 15 20:54:13 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: auto/embed is not node transclusion References: <000501be9e34$21da5f80$de64a8c0@laptop-ros.wpsi.com> Message-ID: <373DC11D.951F775C@prescod.net> Robert Stretch wrote: > > The difference between transclusion and inclusion is that the context of the > transcluded content is still retained. In Nelson's application model, > transclusions opened a viewport that was nested inside your document. This > way you could scroll above and below the transcluded content to see its > original context. Thanks for point that out. I think that most people are more interested in the lower-level mechanism that we would call "node-level inclusion". Transclusion could (and arguably should) be built on top of inclusion. can be transformed into: -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Sat May 15 21:59:06 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML Message-ID: > Wow... > > I guess this hadn't really occurred to me. This could get ugly quick. > Sure, browsers may support XML, but what if they build all these "extras" > based on their own DTD's into their development tools? RSS? CDF? They > may > throw all these features in, but have processing engines to handle all > these > special "extras" that may/may not work in eachother's browsers. Sounding > like DHTML all over again? Ugh...... > > Sure, they can do all this extra stuff at the chagrin of the development > and > standards communities, but when did that bother them in the past? They > could build all this "extra functionality" (read: proprietary) > functionality > into their browsers, the W3C group not give the "good developing seal of > approval" for XML, and where does it leave XML? Dead in the water. > > Maybe that would be a blessing in disguise... Maybe some rogue startup > could develop an open-source browser that embraces standards and is free > to > everyone (GNU? FSF?) and runs on all platforms and (at least attempts) to > support N'scape and IE's little "toys". Then if it wrestled enough market > share from the others, just start gradually "dumping" all those added > features, release by release. Of course, since I am dreaming, I would > like > a pony.... > > Anyway, standards are great, but only as great as their support in the > vendor world. We've gotten a lot of promises, but nothing written in > blood. > Hopefully, if we can get the general developers (webmasters, publishers) > to > start screaming as loud as the standards developers, PD software > developers, > and consultants, maybe they will listen. > > > Channels were a stupid idea anyway > > > good luck to all, > > -Jason > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com > > > > Hummmm, I understand that you have a very subjective view of it. Its OK, > > we > > can have subjective views as long as we don't state that they are > > objective > > :-) > > > > My own subjective opinion. Don't expect competing species to respect a > > common standard especially if a would be standard has been brought by > the > > competitor. It just gives a clue that XML don't resolve the unity of > > languages. Contrary to that it encourage diversity and everybody can > > invent > > its own language. This is why, now just for channel or topic handling > you > > have (just a few of what's out there) > > - CDF > > - RSS > > - RDF > > - topic maps > > > > In fact, what's marvelous about XML is that now each one can invent its > > own > > HTML :-) or its own meta data language. > > > > Seriously speaking, RSS is popular in the Netscape ecosystem and CDF in > > the > > Microsoft ecosystem. Which one is better? Its a question of: in which > > ecosystem you are. Never expect a Netscape specie to tell you that CDF > is > > good and do not expect a Microsoft specie to tell you that RSS is good. > > Only > > some rare species living in both ecosystems can tell you that both do > the > > job and in fact are about the same as long as you have the right > > interpreter > > to decode the language. And that the main perceive quality is dependant > on > > the interpreter quality and how data is presented. And even o this > > subject, > > taste differ. And this is good. Its only a matter of ecosystem, taste > and > > often a question of religion :-) > > > > My own religion tell me that I cannot use CDF or RSS because big money > is > > reincarnated into these products :-)))) just kidding :-))) > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Sat May 15 22:03:33 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: At 4:53 PM 5/14/99, David Brownell wrote: >Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com wrote: >> >> > XML requires deterministic content models. This allows >> > validators to do their job without having to look more >> > than one element ahead >> > or do brute force tree searches. >> >> The validator may not have to look more than 1 element ahead, but it does >> need to look elements behind or construct a tree representation for the >> pattern due to optional elements: >> >> >> >> >> >> With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. Not so, this isn't like BNF. The parser get the token for the start of the element 'x', making it use the content model for 'x' for further parsing. If the next token is a representation for the start of the 'a' element, it uses the content model for 'a' for further parsing. If the next token is an 'b', it uses the content model for the 'b' element for further parsing/validation. >Actually, the content model for "x" is in error there, so any >XML processor is allowed to report an error however rudely it >chooses to do so. That content model is "ambigious". What you had in mind is probably a declaration like this: However, this is ambigous as we won't know which sequence list we are in after parsing the start of a x element followed by a c element. It can be rewritten to a deterministic model though. -- Terje | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Sat May 15 22:17:34 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: At 5:11 PM 5/14/99, roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: >>>Does anyone believe that these can be done in less than brute force tree >search >>>times? >> >>XML requires deterministic content models. This allows validators to do >>their job without having to look more than one element ahead or do brute >>force tree searches. > >Actually it does not require deterministic models, it just allows you to check >for them. And, I guess its not really what XML does or does not do that's in >question here, its what the new upcoming schema spec proposes to do that's at >issue. The XML 1.0 specification, 3.2.1 states that: "For compatability, it is an error if an element in the document can match more than one occurance of an element type in the content model". See also Appendix E to the specification, which describes in further detail what is meant by a deterministic and ambigous content model. It follows from the definition that a validating XML parser doesn't have to look ahead. This is important as it simplifies implementing validation. -- Terje | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Sat May 15 23:09:34 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions / Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: At 5:51 PM 5/13/99, Joshua E. Smith wrote: >At 11:37 AM 5/13/99 -0700, David LeBlanc wrote: >>Would (S1? | S2? | S3? | (C1 | C2 | C3)*) work? > >Nope. That would allow only one of S1, S2, or S3. I need to allow up to >one of each, in any order. > >As was pointed out in a separate, but coincidentally related, thread, you'd >have to put a * at the end of that, which suddenly loses singletonness. Alas. > >But I guess the & syntax from SGML is deceptively simple. I don't >completely follow that other thread, but I gather it's hard to implement >which is probably why they left it out of XML. No, it is not particularly hard to implement support for the AND connector in a validating parser. However, the AND connector is redundant, as one can express the same using the other connectors (although not very elegant). For example, take the content model (A & B & C) expressing that we require the three elements in any order. Here is the XML equivalent content model: (A,((B,C)|(C,B))) | (B,((A,C)|(C,A))) | (C,((A,B)|(B,A))) Note that just permutating the elements in a sequence list is ambigous and thus not allowed: ((A,B,C)|(A,C,B)|(B,A,C)|(B,C,A)|(C,A,B)|(C,A,B)) A content model that uses AND connector can be converted into a proper XML content model using a simple algorithm. Thus, supporting the AND connector in an XML parser is at most as hard as writing the converter for the content model. This proves that supporting the AND connector isn't much harder than implementing the current connectors. However, there are better ways of implementing support for AND connectors than to convert AND content model into such tree structures. Simply make the parser keep track of which elements in the AND list have not yet been parsed. For each element encountered, remove its item from the list. Signal an error if the parser encounter an element not in the list of remainders, unless all of the remainding elements in the list are optional. Repeat until the list is empty or a parsed element is not in the list and all remainders are optional. This is how I implemented support for the AND connector in the validator of the Emile XML editor. We wanted to support the AND connector for backward compatability with HTML and other simple SGML document types. It allows Emile to load an HTML DTD into its XML authoring environment. The parser of course warns about that the AND connector isn't proper XML, but we think it is important to provide a bridge back to previous document formats for now. -- Terje Norderhaug President & Chief Technologist Media Design in*Progress San Diego, California Software for Mac Web Professionals at xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat May 15 23:33:50 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions / Singletons in a DTD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Terje Norderhaug | | For example, take the content model (A & B & C) expressing that we | require the three elements in any order. Here is the XML equivalent | content model: | | (A,((B,C)|(C,B))) | (B,((A,C)|(C,A))) | (C,((A,B)|(B,A))) The number of states here more or less follows n factorial, leaving the solution useless after 10 elements in a list or so. | [...] This proves that supporting the AND connector isn't much | harder than implementing the current connectors. Given infinitely long paper tapes, yes. :) | Simply make the parser keep track of which elements in the AND list | have not yet been parsed. For each element encountered, remove its | item from the list. [...] This is essentially the same solution that John Cowan mentioned earlier, and that I mused might be extended to cover the {m,n} modifier as well. However, I now see a potential problem with this in the presence of ambiguous content models. I've taken a different line with this compared to many of the others here, since I see no reason not to allow them (they cause no harm in XML). Furthermore, the recommendation only has a non-binding requirement that they be rejected. (I will warn about them, but that's another matter.) The problem is that if you generate a non-deterministic automaton from the weaker content model (A | B | ...)* and convert it to a deterministic one your deterministic states will be combinations of the non-d ones, which (I think) may mean that in some cases you won't know whether to enable the special & actions or not, since you don't know whether you're inside the & group or outside it. Does anyone know whether this really is a problem or not? --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat May 15 23:57:14 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions In-Reply-To: <01BE9DF3.3509EFD0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> References: <01BE9DF3.3509EFD0@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: * John Cowan | | IIRC the canonical way of doing (A & B & C) is to transform it into | (A | B | C)* and then do a post-check that each of A, B, C appears | exactly once. ... * Robert C. Lyons | | It seems that this approach would require the parser to perform look ahead | for the following content model: | ( (A & B & C), C, C, C ) Nrgh. And I just posted a full page to say the same. Oh well. | This content model would be transformed into: ( (A | B | C)*, C, C, C ) | | The transformed content model is non-deterministic. [...] | | The original content model is deterministic; [...] Hmmm. As far as I can see this hints that if some other transformation were used this problem might be avoided. For example, ( ((A|B|C) , (A|B|C) , (A|B|C)), C, C, C ) does not have this problem. However, it does have the disagreeable property that it grows the content model by n squared, which will probably get intolerable somewhere around 200-300. Also, it gets you into trouble anyway if the original content model is ambiguous: ((A | B | C)*, (A & B & C), C, C, C) If you read one A you have no idea whether you're in the & group or not, regardless of how you transform it. Handling this latest content model seems like a real challenge to me. I think any viable approach will need to know when it reaches ((A | B | C)*, (A & B & C), C, C, C) ^ ^ 1 2 the states corresponding to 1 and 2 above, which as far as I can see effectively means resolving any ambiguities, which again seems to mean that lookaheads are required. (Or, alternatively, that you need to outlaw ambiguity in the original content model.) Please, someone, prove me wrong. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sun May 16 00:08:08 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990515070125.01c95b90@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: * Jeffrey Ricker | | Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF | as Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? When I first started looking at RSS I immediately noticed two things: a) it's incredibly simple (too simple, in fact) b) it's probably the most widely supported XML application so far, both in terms of software and content To me this smells like worse-is-better again, and I think that's a good answer to your question. I also think it's a useful lesson for the future. The success of most non-local XML applications is entirely dependent on their adoption by content providers, and previous experience seems to show that that very much depends on how easy it is to support. I would also conjecture that in most cases the software support depends on the content support. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sun May 16 00:45:02 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions / Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990515154411.011dc8e0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:12 PM 5/15/99 -0700, Terje Norderhaug wrote: >No, it is not particularly hard to implement support for the AND connector >in a validating parser. In the first several generations of SGML parsing products, it was well-known that there were all sorts of bugs that were only observed when the & connector was being used. So the evidence doesn't support the claim above. This is exactly why it was left out of XML. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Sun May 16 02:02:40 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:02 2004 Subject: John Cowan's comments on Structures draft Message-ID: <199905160014.UAA06714@locke.ccil.org> I want to thank the Schema WG for its hard work, and I realize that the following long list of comments can't be attended to right away, but I hope you are able to get to them all eventually (preferably by doing exactly what I want :-)). Note in clause 2.2: validation does not in fact contribute anything to the infoset. The things you mention (default attributes, attribute value normalization) are done by all processors whether validating or not, provided the relevant declarations appear in entities read by the processor. Non-validating processors are licensed not to read external entities, but not to ignore declarations in entities that they do read. elt-default: I think defaulted content is a fine idea. sic-elt-default: I agree with the "Preferred solution". namespace-declare (not speaking officially for infoset wg here): The trouble with making xmlns:foo attributes part of the infoset is that that locks in the name "foo", which is in effect a prefix and supposed to be changeable without affecting schema validity. I suggest you find a way to work around this problem. Clause 3.4.5: I associate myself fully with Paul Prescod's comments on removing the restrictions on mixed content: #PCDATA should be just a token, and whitespace where an element is expected simply doesn't affect validity. Definition of "full name" is very hard to understand. Please reword. Note in clause 3.4.9: I think any notion of implicit names is bogus. Please allow only explicit names. The "transclude" example: I don't think XLinks do transclusion, so a better name should be used. Clause 3.6: I associate myself with all others who denounce entity declarations in schemas, especially if they are allowed to satisfy otherwise unsatisfiable XML 1.0 entity references. Including them simply to superset DTDs perpetuates a design error made decades ago. Furthermore, nearly-well-formed XML is simply not XML, and XML WGs don't have any mandate for providing standards relating to non-XML. Clause 4.2: It seems strange to have an "export" element which exists (due to the default) primarily to declare what is *not* exported. Also, scattering individual export declarations through the schema in imitation of Java seems to me a mistake. I prefer the Common Lisp/Ada/ C++/etc. style where nothing is exported by default and where all *specific* objects to be exported are declared at the top of the schema. Clause 4.7: it would be useful to allow, at user option, schema processors to signal an error in case of a declaration conflict, instead of just ignoring all but the first. Conflicts may be the result of design errors rather than intentional overriding. Clause 4.8: the wording is bad here. "URI" means "URL or URN". If an URL is a string, so is an URI; if an URL is an abstract reference to what the string references, so is an URI. Calling a resolvable pointer an URL, and a potentially unresolvable one an URI, doesn't fit the facts. Clause 5: I propose that documentation be permitted as the first (optional) child element in every declaration, in the form of an "xhtml:body" element. XHTML, though not yet a Rec, is probably stable, and any instabilities reflect unintended discrepancies with HTML 4.0. Clause 6.1: The term "RUE" no longer appears in the Infoset-WD. Use "reference to unknown entity" instead. Better yet, demand that schema-validators must read all external entities, so that RUEs (by any name) are no longer an issue. I may have comments on the schema-schema or the schema-DTD later. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun May 16 10:32:24 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012101be9f76$3bac2f90$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Paul Prescod wrote: >I wrote: >> The way I see it, the code vs. data debate hasn't been settled yet. The >> current accepted technology, HTML, is a hybrid of both and therefore nobody >> likes it. XML is on the pure data side, but its success is yet to be seen. >> Java is on the code's side, and its success is also not clear (the Jini >> project, for example, demonstrates what this approach can achieve if >> seriously adopted). > >Could you outline what you consider to be the successes of Jini? The idea >of my light switch communicating with my refrigerator via migrating Java >objects strikes me as kewl but highly brittle. The declarative part of an >API specification leaves so much unsaid. I would feel much more >comfortable if I heard that Jini was a set of APIs *and* data formats. I didn't say Jini had any successes yet :-) As to the potential, I'm less interested in the lightswitch talking to my refrigirator, as cool as that sounds. What I see in Jini is in the short term a way for practical zero (well, epsilon) administration for SOHO, and a way to do really neat things for mobile computing. In the long term, I simply love the idea of replacing the PCI bus with a 1000 ethernet micro hub. Instead of having a fat ugly box it is a hassle to upgrade, you have a small pile of cubes plugging into the network, which you can upgrade individually, just by plugging one out and plugging a new one in. USB and FireWire give some of this to an individual user; Jini can give it to a whole net. >> The ultimate test of both approaches is trying to use a document/object in a >> system it wasn't designed for. >> >>... >> >> The code approach is less suitable for adapting to unexpected applications. > >Hey, doesn't that mean "we win?" According to you the migrating objects >mechanism is "almost" as good as migrating data but "almost" only counts >in horseshoes and hand grenades. The code approach has one thing going for it - power. Consider an HTML page with embedded JavaScript. There's simply no way the same effect can be achieved with a pure data approach. We'll always have some of both. >Seriously: > >One virtue of migrating objects is that you can build data-based solutions >on top of them. You just tell your migrant objects to stay put and send >messages instead. You could make the reverse case - allow for migrating objects but wrap their API in terms of something like XML. Both approaches aren't exactly elegant. >My problem is that most people don't understand that there is a spectrum >and a conflict here. So they often go straight for the programmatic >solution without verifying that a declarative solution is impossible. They >sense that the programmatic solution is more powerful but don't recognize >the long-term costs (a perfect example: the recent (informal) >proposal). This leads to abominations such as Postscript, Display >Postscript, .bashrc's etc. First, it typically takes several years of experience with a programmatic approach before a good declerative approach can be formulated. The move from one to another is a sign of the maturity of the system. In fact you can view this in the evolution of programming languages themselves; much that was "programmatric" in older generations is "declerative" in newer ones. This shouldn't lead us into the trap of assuming that anything at all can be done "decleratively". A complex "declerative" language is worse then a simple "programmatic" one. For example, if printers used Prolog instead of PostScript (never mind the obvious inefficiencies), would that have made things better in any way? Hardly. As usual in these type of issues, what we'll see in the end is some sort of a hybrid system. Imagine an object oriented architecture with a clear seperation of data and code; data is specified in XML and code in Java or JavaScript, accessing the data via a DOM interface. The difference between it and HTML + JavaScript or simple migrating Java objects would be that the relationship between the code and the data would be much more clearly defined. Assuming that small issues of security, standard interfaces, standard and per-application libraries, version control, distribution etc. are resolved, such an architecture has the potential of being the ultimate "it". For example it could do anything Jini does, probably better. The role of the operating system would be reduced to offering the standard library. Network protocols would be reduced to a single one passing this sort of object. >The Unix community in particular is going to have to come to grips with >the idea that more powerful is not necessarily the same as better. Funny you should say that. UNIX has started with "almost everything is a file" approach and got pretty good results. Plan9 took it on to "really everything is a file" and got better results (technically). What I suggest above is similar in spirit to what may be called a PlanX approach - "everything is an XML document" - where the additional twist is "with some code attached", and "with a clear relationship between code and data". I don't see this as being against the UNIX spirit at all. Rather I see it as a natural evolution of its concepts. Not that I expect anything so clean and elegant to emerge from what humanity employs as a development process for its technology :-) Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun May 16 10:52:06 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <012601be9f78$fc60d950$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Martin Bryan wrote: >I wrote: >>you can use an industry-standard DTD to good effect - it is just that >the industry in question isn't "the XML industry"; instead it might be "the >XML browsing industry", and the standard isn't "XML", it is "XML as used in >browsers". There's simply no way a browser will be able to correctly handle >links whose behavior is specific to vlsi design process, unless someone >explicitly codes a stylesheet which explains how to do so. > >The problem I am trying to deal with is not related to "the XML industry" or >"the XML browser industry" - instead it relates to a set of DTDs that share >common-features which apply to a wide range of applications shared by a wide >range of industries. If we are to develop sharable toolsets we need to >develop sharable architectures. IMVHO, the problem is more with the lack of power in current DTDs. If it were possible to reuse DTD fragments, for example, containing the functionality you want, then the problem would have been solved. Moving the shared functionality directly into the XML standard works around this limitation, but I feel it is the wrong thing to do. >The key point is that I want, in the longer >term, to replace the current practice of relentlessly copying data from one >message to another (up to 10 times in some processes) with a process that >allows linking to the original source of the data. That's a good goal, I don't have any problem with it. >The way this will be done >will depend on the type of the data being linked to and on the local >conditions for access to original documents. OK, I can define a generalized >architecture that would be widely used for this purpose, and call it >edi:behaviour, but as this is widely required by others why not also have it >as a standard mechanism for passing link instance dependent information to >the link processor? If you can define a set of behaviors and make a good case that this set is applicable to the vast mojority of XML applications, they I'll gladly join you in lobbying for adding an 'xml:behavior' attribute to XLink with this set of values. In fact, I'm all for releasing XLink without a behavior attribute and creating a WG (or maybe placing it within the XLink WG mandate, whetever) dedicated to this attribute. IMVHO, we won't have a sensible notion of what to place in such an attribute until people will have some experience using XLink. Which means we'll have a year or so of 'my:behavior' and 'your:behavior'. After this year we'll see what is really common behavor, and release XLink 2.0 with 'xml:behavior' covering these cases. But even in this case, it should still be possible to add behaviors outside this set - 'my:behavior' will never disappear, even assuming the current specs. Actually, I can even accept 'behavior' as it stands today provided the specs say that this attribute is reserved, its valid set of values will be defined in a future version of the draft - effectively meaning that 'xml:behavior' has the priviliege of being called simply 'behavior'. Actually if there is one or two behaviors on which the WG could agree _today_, such as "include as an XML fragment within this document", then by all means release them in version 1.0. But release it! waiting another year for this issue to be resolved only harms the proposal. >It should not be necessary to have individual >stylesheets for individual instances of messages. >It should not be necessary >to redefine processes for each DTD that uses the shared information. Agreed; why do these follow from what Paul (and I) propose? >We need >to import standardized modules that will process standardized namespaces of >elements in ways that depend on the conditions applying at the point at >which the located data is to be retrieved from. The 'behavior' attribute as it is specified - or should I say, unspecified - today, does not give you this power. As long as it doesn't have a set of well-defined valid values, it is wores then useless. Have fun, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun May 16 11:02:38 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: Icon Contest Results Message-ID: <015901be9f7a$7504fc00$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Nice (though not what I voted for :-). One suggestion, though. Suppose I use XSL to convert XML into XML + CSS. Which icon should be used, the XSL one or the CSS one? I'd rather there was an icon with both - how about using a magenta bar at the bottom, a combination of the CSS red and the XSL blue? Have fun, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sat May 15 01:54:40 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6AB3@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: <373CB780.AD87D279@pacbell.net> A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: Size: 1602 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990515/1b07fccb/attachment-0001.bat From paul at prescod.net Sun May 16 16:05:25 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: Content model probs References: <000a01be9e10$abcf2fa0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <373ECD73.B3134346@prescod.net> Leigh Dodds wrote: > > Basically I want to say that a tag should: > > 1. Contain #PCDATA, *OR* > 2. an optional tag X followed by zero or more occurences of tag Y > > I had thought something like : (#PCDATA|(X?, Y*) > but that doesn't seem to parse. This is disallowed in XML for historical reasons. In a recent message entitled "Mixed content considered harmful" (May 10), I proposed that this should change in the move to XML Schemas. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sun May 16 16:31:54 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: XML for Preferences Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990516071205.01c45100@mail.userland.com> We've come up with another excellent use for XML, to specify the interface for a web-based preference system. There are a lot of reasons why XML is the right choice here. First, it's understandable to people who write documentation. That means that the preferences wizard has a hope of being understandable to newcomers, since the system developer doesn't have to write the help text, and the work doesn't even need to be coordinated. The interactive part is just software, interpreting the content which is specified in XML. Also, you can render the same specification in a variety of different formats. For now, we're rendering as HTML, but it could just as easily be rendered in Flash, DHTML or as a Visual Basic "wizard". The concepts and the content are the same, but the engine running the content doesn't have to be. Further, if there were an agreement on how to specify preferences systems we could switch our deployment from Frontier to PHP or Zope or Oracle or Vignette, or whatever, and a lot of our content would just move with us by moving the preferences spec. In other words, this is an important place where a standard, defacto or standards-body-based, would enable growth and eliminate lock-in. ***Where we're at with this We have a running system at http://prefs.userland.com/. This is a live system, to access it you must be a member of userland.com, which is open to the public. If you're not a member, go to this page: http://logon.userland.com/, go thru the logon sequence, get the password via email, it should be self-explanatory. Sorry, there's no way to use this system without being a member. We won't do anything with your email address other than store it along with your password and preferences. ***Show me the XML! Now, there are two ways to see the XML spec behind this system. First you can directly access the XML page, thru this URL: http://prefs.userland.com/outline.xml Or you can see a screen shot of the editor: http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$6316 Important point: Any XML editor can be used to edit this text. It does not have to be our outliner, which is a good XML editor. Any tool that can produce XML output will work fine. ***How to think of this It's a very lightweight thing. Any HTML coder can learn how to do this. It's not as powerful as Mozilla's XUL, but then it's a lot simpler than XUL. We looked at XUL before doing this, thinking perhaps that it would be a good starting point. We decided that it introduced a lot of unnecessary complexity for the people doing authoring, writers, explainers, users. We're doing this in the open. Maybe someone else wants to build on this idea? If so, please let me know. The spirit of XML is building on each others' work, that's why I keep telling you guys what we're doing. Keep diggin! Dave Winer UserLand Software xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Sun May 16 16:48:02 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: A Milestone in XML Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990516074310.01c69450@mail.userland.com> >> a) it's incredibly simple (too simple, in fact) >> b) it's probably the most widely supported XML application so far,both in terms of software and content Both statements are true! That's why we're excited about RSS. It's a simple-enough beginning, and it has the backing of a portal, not just a company. That's where the rubber meets the road, AFAIK. RSS in fact is weaker than our own format, an example of which can be found here: http://news.userland.com/mostRecentScriptingNews.xml We've been able to build a great search engine off format, it's explained here: http://newssearch.userland.com/ Such a search engine is possible with RSS, and we will do it. It will be a very smart search engine because it will have human beings deciding what goes in it. So if you get to know an expert, and think he or she might know something about something you're interested in, just go to the search engine and ask. RSS, weak as it is from a technical standpoint, embodies a lot of the promise of XML. It's an excellent start. And it's proof that you don't have to grok all the computer science on the W3C site to be powerful with XML. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sun May 16 20:57:09 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions References: <199905151830.OAA29572@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <373F14CA.58922DC6@pacbell.net> John Cowan wrote: > > Mark McDonald wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. > > And David Brownell replied: > > > Actually, the content model for "x" is in error there, so any > > XML processor is allowed to report an error however rudely it > > chooses to do so. That content model is "ambigious". > > I can only assume that both of you are suffering from brain farts. > Any "x" that contains anything but an "a" or a "b" is obviously > invalid. You are talking as if the above declarations were: > > > > > > Element declarations refer to lexically apparent objects (elements), > not to mere groups of elements defined by pseudo-BNF. Ah, yes ... I was reacting to the intent, not the exact wording! Thanks for catching that. There've been misstatements on this topic. The XML spec is clear that ambiguous content models are errors. What it does poorly is say exactly what that means; it basically boils down to a reality that documents better not have it, "or else". And any parser is free to do _whatever it wants_ when faced with such errors. - dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Sun May 16 23:56:49 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolksii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: Announce. Some2XML alpha. Message-ID: <000f01be9fe7$54e04c00$7f02aace@g0f2n0> Hello. Available for download from http://www.pault.com Small perl script. The idea of Some2XML is to produce a well-formed XML documents from text files that already have some structure, even their original structure is not too much XML-alike. Rgds.Paul. paul@qub.com http://www.pault.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon May 17 00:23:51 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <373CBA12.E4DA7C78@prescod.net> References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> This thread's sort of calmed down in the last few days, but I've been wondering something. Would it be fair to say that the behavior attribute of an XLinking element is intended to function as a sort of localized (element-context-specific) PI -- a trigger to XLink-smart processors that is ignorable by others? If so, in what way is such an attribute more problematic than actual PIs? (Btw, as I said earlier, I agree with much of what Paul Prescod said in his opening post on the thread. This is just a matter of curiosity.) ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 01:30:06 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <373F4F1F.C31962D5@prescod.net> "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > This thread's sort of calmed down in the last few days, but I've been > wondering something. > > Would it be fair to say that the behavior attribute of an XLinking element > is intended to function as a sort of localized (element-context-specific) > PI -- a trigger to XLink-smart processors that is ignorable by others? If > so, in what way is such an attribute more problematic than actual PIs? PIs have a rough namespace differentiation mechanism. You can look at a PI and know whether you handle it or not. (this mechanism should really be global and tied to "XML namespaces" but PIs are used infrequently enough that it should not be a problem) If a processor it sees how does the processor know which of the many programming language "plugins" it should be passed to? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans. - Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon May 17 03:41:44 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <373F4F1F.C31962D5@prescod.net> References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <4.0.1.19990516213553.01001560@207.211.141.31> At 06:05 PM 5/16/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >If a processor it sees how does the >processor know which of the many programming language "plugins" it should >be passed to? Hmm.... I didn't think it'd work quite like that. I figured BEHAVIOR would be an ordinary attribute - say, "popup" instead of "popup()", which the style sheet or other app-specific gizmo then converts to "popup()" as appropriate, knowing what the context was supposed to be. Sort of like a selector for CSS Action Sheets, if they get off the ground. I don't know if that would improve your opinion of BEHAVIOR any, but I can't say I find it as threatening as I would if I'd thought of it your way. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon May 17 04:37:34 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <4.0.1.19990516213553.01001560@207.211.141.31> References: <373F4F1F.C31962D5@prescod.net> <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990516223717.007fb310@nexus.polaris.net> At 09:39 PM 05/16/1999 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >At 06:05 PM 5/16/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >>If a processor it sees how does the >>processor know which of the many programming language "plugins" it should >>be passed to? > >I figured BEHAVIOR would be an ordinary attribute - say, "popup" instead of >"popup()", which the style sheet or other app-specific gizmo then converts >to "popup()" as appropriate, knowing what the context was supposed to be. Aye. That's about what I was thinking, too. The XLink WD, such as it is, treats the behavior attribute rather gingerly. In 4.1.3 it says: A link author can also optionally use an attribute called behavior to communicate detailed instructions for traversal behavior. The contents, format, and meaning of this attribute are unconstrained. Later, in the intro to section 6 (Link Behavior), it says: In many cases, much finer control over the details of traversal behavior, of the type that existing hypertext software typically provides, will be desired. Such fine control of link behavior is outside the scope of this specification. However, the behavior attribute is provided as a standard place for authors to provide, and in which application software may look for, detailed behavioral instructions. And that's all it says about the behavior attribute. What seems to distinguish this from something like "behavior='popup'" -- with or without the parens -- is that the latter could be presumed to be fairly commonly desirable link behavior. I'm thinking that where a behavior attribute might really be useful would be something like: ...behavior="via:http://some.halfwaypoint.com/" whose meaning would be understood only by a special-purpose application that knows how the specified behavior inflects the meaning of the link. Any general-purpose application would simply treat the link in the "normal" way (whatever that turns out to be). And this kind of behavior -- like a page-break PI, and unlike (I think) the behavior specified in the show/actuate attributes -- wouldn't necessarily be best relegated to a style sheet or other external entity. It seems inherently "meaningful," and unable to be captured by any of the other XLinking attributes exactly because it is application-specific... not in an extension-to-XLink sense, but it its own right. But as usual, of course, this is like trying to read really grody entrails. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com Mon May 17 09:53:41 1999 From: mtbryan at sgml.u-net.com (Martin Bryan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:03 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <009101bea03a$29f93da0$25c566c3@sgml.u-net.com> John E Simpson wrote >Would it be fair to say that the behavior attribute of an XLinking element is intended to function as a sort of localized (element-context-specific) PI -- a trigger to XLink-smart processors that is ignorable by others? If so, in what way is such an attribute more problematic than actual PIs? The key point about the behaviour attribute is that it is instance specific, rather than element-context-specific. (You can deal with all element-context-specific problems in the stylesheet; it is instance specific changes that are the difficult ones to control without passing some form of control parameter.) Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >If you can define a set of behaviors and make a good case that this set is applicable to the vast mojority of XML applications, they I'll gladly join you in lobbying for adding an 'xml:behavior' attribute to XLink with this set of values. In fact, I'm all for releasing XLink without a behavior attribute and creating a WG (or maybe placing it within the XLink WG mandate, whetever) dedicated to this attribute. I do not believe that we are yet in a position to predefine the behaviours. These must be specified by particular industry groups, not by W3C. I am not convinced that the behaviours needed for the US Defense industry will be the same ones needed by the European healthcare industry (in fact I know they are different). Why should I seek to impose the requirements of one of these groups on the other? What is needed is a standard "point of reference" that people can know where to go for information. Suggestions like (made by Paul Prescod) are not what I had in mind - behaviour should not point to a procedure it should either pass parameters that can be used by procedures, e.g or better still, like namespace declarations, point to the source of the definition of the behaviour, e.g. . Note that the name of the parameter entity used to define behaviour is remote-resources-semantics.att - its the semantics we should be passing, not the calls. Note also the subtle change to the last example. Behaviour belongs on the locator rather than the link set. For simple links these are the same thing but for extended links this is not true. The key point is that for multiheaded links behaviour is controlled at link instance level. It is for multiheaded links that you need to control the behaviour of different members of the link set in different ways. Now to come to another point Ben made in response to my comments that: >It should not be necessary to have individual >stylesheets for individual instances of messages. >It should not be necessary >to redefine processes for each DTD that uses the shared information. Ben said: >Agreed; why do these follow from what Paul (and I) propose? I don't think they follow from what you have been saying, but they are something that has not been adequately thought through in the overall model of the XML family. Ben rightly suggested that we should used DTD fragments to define shareable resources. But how do you link sharable DTD fragments to sharable stylesheet fragments? How do you link stylesheets to local processes in a way that allow the local processes to be used with many different stylesheets, whenever a particular DTD fragment is invoked, and how do you provide user control over processes that are handled in multiple places. Remember that a multiheaded link is likely to be pointing to resources based on different servers, using different local processes to undertake business-related procedures that necessarily must be handled outside the stylesheet. I had said: >We need >to import standardized modules that will process standardized namespaces of >elements in ways that depend on the conditions applying at the point at >which the located data is to be retrieved from. Ben responded: >The 'behavior' attribute as it is specified - or should I say, unspecified - today, does not give you this power. As long as it doesn't have a set of well-defined valid values, it is wores then useless. I agree it is under-specified. I think it is too early (by 3-5 years rather than Ben's estimate of 1 year) to specify a decent set of acceptable procedures. I think the best we can do at present is to take the approach namespaces did - point to a resource that describes what is required and depend on the system having its own rules for resolving what that means. Martin Bryan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Mon May 17 11:38:22 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! Message-ID: <007201bea048$9e4b0a40$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Martin Bryan wrote: >I wrote: > >>If you can define a set of behaviors and make a good case that this set is >applicable to the vast majority of XML applications, they I'll gladly join >you in lobbying for adding an 'xml:behavior' attribute to XLink with this >set of values. In fact, I'm all for releasing XLink without a behavior >attribute and creating a WG (or maybe placing it within the XLink WG >mandate, whetever) dedicated to this attribute. > >I do not believe that we are yet in a position to predefine the behaviours. >These must be specified by particular industry groups, not by W3C. That's also my position. >Suggestions like (made by Paul Prescod) are >not what I had in mind - behaviour should not point to a procedure it should >either pass parameters that can be used by procedures, e.g BEHAVIOR="popup"> or better still, like namespace declarations, point to the >source of the definition of the behaviour, e.g. BEHAVIOR="http://www.healthcare.org/xml/behaviours/popup_menu.xsl">. We are agreed on that as well. The question is, what is the best way to ensure this? We have several alternatives: 1. Leave 'behavior' unspecified and rely on people's common sense. 2. Make it a requirement that values to 'behavior' must be URIs. 3. Use XML namespace mechanism instead to qualify the attribute name, instead of its values. The spec now uses option (1), which I think is unsatisfactory. Let us at least have an editorial note recommending URI values! Paul (I presume) and myself would rather have option (3), as being more in tune with other XML standards (namespaces). But (2) also gets the job done. Given that (2) requires a very minor change to the spec as it stands (just adding a sentence or two), I guess it is the most practical one. If that's what it takes to get the spec out the door, so be it. >Now to come to another point Ben made in response to my comments that: >>It should not be necessary to have individual >>stylesheets for individual instances of messages. >>It should not be necessary >>to redefine processes for each DTD that uses the shared information. Urr... My first name is 'Oren' and the last one is 'Ben-Kiki'. 'Ben' is sort of a prefix (son-of) in Hebrew, but is a seperate word. Never fails to confuse English speakers used to middle names :-) Anyway, I said: >>Agreed; why do these follow from what Paul (and I) propose? >I don't think they follow from what you have been saying, but they are >something that has not been adequately thought through in the overall model >of the XML family. Ben rightly suggested that we should used DTD fragments >to define shareable resources. But how do you link sharable DTD fragments to >sharable stylesheet fragments? How do you link stylesheets to local >processes in a way that allow the local processes to be used with many >different stylesheets, whenever a particular DTD fragment is invoked, and >how do you provide user control over processes that are handled in multiple >places. Remember that a multiheaded link is likely to be pointing to >resources based on different servers, using different local processes to >undertake business-related procedures that necessarily must be handled >outside the stylesheet. Good questions! If I knew the answers, I'd probably be a W3C WG member instead of an outside kibitzer :-) BTW, I agree that these questions weren't thought completely through; however the WGs did invest time and effort in these directions - wo do have namespaces, for example. I would be happy if there was a WG which was dedicated to this issue, even if its output would be only a list of "recommended practices" explaining how exactly to use existing XML standards to achieve this effect. Since you've asked, I do have some notions as to how the above could be done. First, I think that some of these questions aren't quite the right ones. By this I mean that DTDs or XSchemas or whatever should be restricted to defining the structure of a valid XML document. Viewed this way it sharing DTD/XSchema fragments shouldn't be too hard. "All" you'd need to say is "and this element is as defined in the following DTD". Trivial issues such as namespace management are left as an excersize to the reader :-) Assuming this issue is resolved, there remains the question of how to share stylesheet fragments. Given that this is a completely separate issue, XSL already provides ways to do this. "All" you need to do is provide a "library module" stylesheets containing the templates for some functionality - transforming certain elements in certain ways. The ability to specify template modes and names is invaluable here; it ensures that these "modules" won't be invoked unless you explicitly activate them. Note that nothing stops you from providing a DTD/XSchema "fragment" and an associated XSL one, if you insist on tight coupling between the two. But you can also provide multiple XSL fragments for the same DTD/XSchema one, for separate styling/transformation goals. You could also provide XSL fragments which were applicable for a wide range of DTDs - consider for example the IE5 XSL stylesheet for viewing arbitrary XML documents. In short, I strongly feel that the assumption that a DTD "has" a stylesheet is wrong. As long as it is being considered, this issue will get nowhere. BTW, all this relies heavily on the XML namespace mechanism and the use of URIs, and otherwise builds on existing XML standard. However, these standards haven't been fully adjusted to namespaces yet. For example, there's at least one potential problem in XSL - AFAIK mode and template names can't be URIs, they must be simple names. I'll raise this issue in the XSL mailing list. A WG dedicated to this issue could go through all XML standards to ensure they match these scheme, and could make a better case for changing a particular standard if necessary. Another issue you mentioned is user control over this process. I think this ultimately falls in the domain of application designers. Almost by definition, end users will _not_ write CSS stylesheets or (shudder) XSLT stylesheets. They will expect to be able to select from a menu of predefined presentation options. It is an interesting question where these predefined options can be defined in an "application independent" manner. That's the only option which would guarantee users a freedom of presentation formats. However, as long as the W3C promotes the "single conversion" document processing model: "arbitrary data" + "stylesheet" -> "presentation format", there will be no application independent stylesheets. If you want them, there's no way around "arbitrary data" + "application dependent transformation" -> "universal semantics", then + "application independent stylesheet" -> "presentation format". The trick is defining the "universal semantics" language, of course. Currently the only candidate is HTML, and since it is a horrible universal semantics language you can't really write application independent stylesheets for it. It might be too late for the W3C to start developing such a language, anyway - not that they are even trying. Barring someone else doing it, there will be no application independent stylesheets. A pity, really. Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Mon May 17 11:41:56 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: XML validation Message-ID: <00ab01bea04a$5c7443a0$298959c3@oemcomputer> > From: Bryan Cooper > The >XML Schema:Structures draft seems too conservative in this area: if it >doesnt give substantial advantages over markup declarations I dont see >the point: a little nicer improvement to content models for database >support and an enormous increase in size. I am quite new to XML and initially got quite excited about the XML Schema proposal. However, reading this list there seem to be two views of what schemas are for and I am not sure whether a schema is what I need. On the one hand are people who do not like the totally different syntax used in a DTD and would like to replace it with a schema which uses the same syntax as the rest of an XML document but otherwise does the same as a DTD. On the other hand there are those who want to do things a DTD cannot, such as object inheritance ( and ) or reintroduce the potentially useful but apparently tricky "&" connector. There is then the issue of backward compatibility between a schema and XML 1.0. Translating a schema based document to a DTD based one can be: possible, possible with loss of information, or just impossible. Some want one, while some want another. Is this a fair summary of the situation or have I got quite the wrong end of the stick? Philip Nye xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bd at internet-etc.com Mon May 17 11:46:45 1999 From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: Problems validating the W3C schema DTD's Message-ID: <001801bea049$6cd04d80$e282bc3e@p300> Hi - I'm playing about with the official DTD for schema's on the W3C's site http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/. I' can't get the Microsoft XML parser in Internet Explorer 5 to validate it. It spits an error that attribute "xlmns" must be type #FIXED. Any comments? Brandt Dainow bd@internet-etc.com Internet Etc Ltd http://www.internet-etc.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 11:56:02 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> <4.0.1.19990516213553.01001560@207.211.141.31> Message-ID: <373FE315.2C8CF8B@prescod.net> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote: > > At 06:05 PM 5/16/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > >If a processor it sees how does the > >processor know which of the many programming language "plugins" it should > >be passed to? > > Hmm.... I didn't think it'd work quite like that. I'm trying to show the outer limits of what the current definition allows. > I figured BEHAVIOR would be an ordinary attribute - say, "popup" instead of > "popup()", which the style sheet or other app-specific gizmo then converts > to "popup()" as appropriate, knowing what the context was supposed to be. > Sort of like a selector for CSS Action Sheets, if they get off the ground. You probably know this already but: you can use any attribute as a selector. And if you use your own attribute name then you can namespace it to avoid accidental name/semantic clashes. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 11:58:43 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: Overall XML Schema "structure" impressions Message-ID: <373FE0F4.9AE08B25@prescod.net> I am amazed that people from so wide a variety of backgrounds could so quickly come up with a relatively solid specification. If the schema spec were frozen today I would grumble about its imperfections but still choose it over DTDs. (not because its syntax is "more friendly" -- it isn't -- rather it is more robust and manageable) Clearly the group has so far limited its scope and ambition appropriately. As it is defined to be extensible we do not have to solve all of the problems in one go around. Presumably it will also interoperate with other schema languages that will be necessary for other data models (i.e. the linking graph, RDF) and for vertical markets. It is exciting to see the parts of the XML pantheon come together so coherently. I've made my specific reservations known separately but overall the common sense exhibited in the draft makes me feel confident that they will be dealt with. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 12:04:07 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <199905130357.AA00472@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Message-ID: <373FE415.DF506E52@prescod.net> MURATA Makoto wrote: > > I agree with Paul. I personally would like to drop everything that affects > information sets from the schema language. Hence, I oppose to information > set contributions, archetypes, defaults, entities, notations, .... I understand your goal but I think that that is too severe a constraint. The convenience of annotating the tree from the schema is just too large. Given a schema and a design for an application, the application designer can decide whether the application needs to be built on top of a schema processor or not. If it needs archetype, default, etc. then it must be, otherwise it does not need to be. Clearly language designers would have to start taking responsibility for performance. "If we depend on that then schema-less processing will be impossible. I think that it should always be possible to choose to see the same view that a schema-less processor would see. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Mon May 17 12:20:09 1999 From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities In-Reply-To: <373FE415.DF506E52@prescod.net> Message-ID: <199905171019.AA00514@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Paul Prescod wrote: > > I understand your goal but I think that that is too severe a constraint. I have been the only opponent. I am likely to lose. (; ;) > The convenience of annotating the tree from the schema is just too large. I agree with this observation, but my point is that information set contribution is ouside the scope of the schema validator. It should be left to application programs. By doing so, we can make the specification a lot simpler. Now that schemata are in the XML syntax, they can be parsed by XML processors. Thus, application programs can easily obtain additional information from schemata. We only have to allow XML schemata to have user-defined elements, which may be used by such application programs. Cheers, Makoto Fuji Xerox Information Systems Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231 E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon May 17 15:03:30 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: [Question] Re: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <373FE315.2C8CF8B@prescod.net> References: <012601be9dee$81cfa940$2ec566c3@sgml.u-net.com> <3.0.5.32.19990516182138.00b2c2b0@nexus.polaris.net> <4.0.1.19990516213553.01001560@207.211.141.31> Message-ID: <199905171302.JAA08885@hesketh.net> At 04:36 AM 5/17/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >> I figured BEHAVIOR would be an ordinary attribute - say, "popup" instead of >> "popup()", which the style sheet or other app-specific gizmo then converts >> to "popup()" as appropriate, knowing what the context was supposed to be. >> Sort of like a selector for CSS Action Sheets, if they get off the ground. > >You probably know this already but: you can use any attribute as a >selector. And if you use your own attribute name then you can namespace it >to avoid accidental name/semantic clashes. Er... yes... but isn't XLink about providing a list of attributes we can use reliably with _any_ set of documents to build hypertexts? I _could_ create my own 'behavior'-like attribute, but knowing that everyone has access to the same behavior attribute at least provides me with the ability to perform selection on any XLink-conformant spec. I may not know what they mean, but at least I can test it and find out. I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time to wait and see what the next (supposedly soon) draft says. As John Simpson said, this is up there with entrail-interpretation. Not being an ancient Roman priest, I'm not very good at that. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon May 17 15:13:52 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: XML for Preferences Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18DA@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Looks interesting. You could extend this to store the prefs in XML also, by using the schema in my CGI::XMLForm module. It stores the form element names as XSL/XQL-like queries, and creates XML based on the form. For an online example see http://sergeant.org/cgi-bin/cvedit.pl (and do a view-source to see what's going on). Matt. -- http://come.to/fastnet Perl, XML, ASP, Database, mod_perl, High Performance Solutions perl -e 'print scalar reverse q(\)-: ,hacker Perl another Just)' It's Matt. See http://sergeant.org/notmatthew.txt > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Winer [SMTP:dave@userland.com] > Sent: Sunday, May 16, 1999 3:28 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Subject: XML for Preferences > > We've come up with another excellent use for XML, to specify the interface > for a web-based preference system. > > There are a lot of reasons why XML is the right choice here. First, it's > understandable to people who write documentation. That means that the > preferences wizard has a hope of being understandable to newcomers, since > the system developer doesn't have to write the help text, and the work > doesn't even need to be coordinated. The interactive part is just software, > interpreting the content which is specified in XML. > > Also, you can render the same specification in a variety of different > formats. For now, we're rendering as HTML, but it could just as easily be > rendered in Flash, DHTML or as a Visual Basic "wizard". The concepts and > the content are the same, but the engine running the content doesn't have > to be. > > Further, if there were an agreement on how to specify preferences systems > we could switch our deployment from Frontier to PHP or Zope or Oracle or > Vignette, or whatever, and a lot of our content would just move with us by > moving the preferences spec. > > In other words, this is an important place where a standard, defacto or > standards-body-based, would enable growth and eliminate lock-in. > > ***Where we're at with this > > We have a running system at http://prefs.userland.com/. This is a live > system, to access it you must be a member of userland.com, which is open to > the public. > > If you're not a member, go to this page: http://logon.userland.com/, go > thru the logon sequence, get the password via email, it should be > self-explanatory. > > Sorry, there's no way to use this system without being a member. We won't > do anything with your email address other than store it along with your > password and preferences. > > ***Show me the XML! > > Now, there are two ways to see the XML spec behind this system. First you > can directly access the XML page, thru this URL: > > http://prefs.userland.com/outline.xml > > Or you can see a screen shot of the editor: > > http://discuss.userland.com/msgReader$6316 > > Important point: Any XML editor can be used to edit this text. It does not > have to be our outliner, which is a good XML editor. Any tool that can > produce XML output will work fine. > > ***How to think of this > > It's a very lightweight thing. Any HTML coder can learn how to do this. > It's not as powerful as Mozilla's XUL, but then it's a lot simpler than > XUL. We looked at XUL before doing this, thinking perhaps that it would be > a good starting point. We decided that it introduced a lot of unnecessary > complexity for the people doing authoring, writers, explainers, users. > > We're doing this in the open. Maybe someone else wants to build on this > idea? If so, please let me know. The spirit of XML is building on each > others' work, that's why I keep telling you guys what we're doing. > > Keep diggin! > > Dave Winer > UserLand Software > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk> the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricker at xmls.com Mon May 17 16:18:39 1999 From: ricker at xmls.com (Jeffrey Ricker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.37.19990515070125.01c95b90@mail.userland.com> References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18CF@eukbant101.ericss on.se> Message-ID: <199905171417.KAA08380@mail.his.com> Sorry for the delay in response. Short vacation with the family. First things first: Of course CDF is XML. It is one of the very first uses of XML. You would be hard pressed to say I am in the Microsoft ecosystem, but lets give credit where its due. Yes, channels were overhyped and didn't go anywhere. (I personally believe the same fate awaits portals.) But look at the underlying purpose and capability of a CDF file. I designates a group of related files, describes them and tells you if and when they change. Now that's practical and it works. Are you going to tell me CDF is complicated? If you want complicated, look at ICE! But then realize that ICE is industrial strength content syndication, not intended for the pedestrian web page hacker. Climb under the hood of PointCast some time. It is very simple, make that practical, technology. CDF didn't meet all their needs, but they didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. They didn't reinvent anything. They simply extended it. Isn't that what we did with HTML for the past few years? PS. Why do you call it a milestone, anyway? At 07:03 AM 5/15/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: >I haven't answered this question because I don't know the answer. Who knows >how anyone else thinks? Especially a big corporation that's just been >acquired by an even bigger corporation? Anyway, from my POV, CDF is a dead >horse. We did some work with it when it first came out, but it seemed >fairly useless and never went anywhere that I could see. Beyond that, I >have not got a clue what CDF was supposed to do that anyone wanted. RSS on >the other hand is quite useful, and lots of people are getting on the RSS >train, so of course we supported it enthusiastically. That's the big >picture from where I sit. Dave > > >At 01:36 AM 5/14/99 , Matthew Sergeant (EML) wrote: >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] >> > >> > Dave, >> > Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as >> > Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? >> > >> > >> Perhaps because CDF isn't XML? >> >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/channel/cdf1/cdf1.asp >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/cdf/reference/xml.asp >> >> Matt. >> >> >>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >>To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >>(un)subscribe xml-dev >>To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >>subscribe xml-dev-digest >>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon May 17 16:19:50 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: XLink: behavior must go! In-Reply-To: <009101bea03a$29f93da0$25c566c3@sgml.u-net.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990517101909.009e5370@nexus.polaris.net> At 08:35 AM 05/17/1999 +0100, Martin Bryan wrote: >[I] wrote > >>Would it be fair to say that the behavior attribute of an XLinking element >is intended to function as a sort of localized (element-context-specific) >PI -- a trigger to XLink-smart processors that is ignorable by others? If >so, in what way is such an attribute more problematic than actual PIs? > >The key point about the behaviour attribute is that it is instance specific, >rather than element-context-specific. (You can deal with all >element-context-specific problems in the stylesheet; it is instance specific >changes that are the difficult ones to control without passing some form of >control parameter.) Instance-specific? That sounds totally wrong to me, even given your own suggestion for the attribute's value (i.e., a URI). "Instance-specific" says to me, "true of this document instance," not "true of this element instance" -- the latter's what I meant when I said element-context-specific. In the latter case, a style sheet could *not* be used to establish behavior because there'd be no selector on the specific occurrence. It'd be like relegating href value assignment to a style sheet, no? The value to be used for a specific occurrence of that sort of behavior is not obtainable from the "meaning" of the tree structure at that point. Which value to use would be known to the author (human or otherwise), as a function of the "meaning" of that occurrence of that element, but unable to be communicated to a downstream application using other XLink (or style sheet selector) means. At 09:04 AM 05/17/1999 -0400, Simon St.Laurent wrote: >I'm starting to wonder if it isn't time to wait and see what the next >(supposedly soon) draft says. Yeah. I regret raising the question when I did... think I'll shut up now and see what the WG's come up with for ver. 2. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 16:20:14 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:04 2004 Subject: Problems validating the W3C schema DTD's References: <001801bea049$6cd04d80$e282bc3e@p300> Message-ID: <37401F34.CA886D21@prescod.net> Brandt Dainow wrote: > > Hi - I'm playing about with the official DTD for schema's on the W3C's site > http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/. I' can't get the Microsoft XML parser in > Internet Explorer 5 to validate it. It spits an error that attribute > "xlmns" must be type #FIXED. Any comments? That's an MSXML bug. Microsoft's namespace support is not that good. You could work around by just inserting the #FIXED. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 16:31:50 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <199905171019.AA00514@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Message-ID: <37401F82.5A13C62@prescod.net> MURATA Makoto wrote: > > Now that schemata are in the XML syntax, they can be parsed by XML processors. > Thus, application programs can easily obtain additional information from > schemata. We only have to allow XML schemata to have user-defined elements, > which may be used by such application programs. If a schema parses some date text to validate it then having the application do it again is inefficient and inconvenient. A schema could also use content model information to report breaks between content model chunks (if it "reported" non-terminals). This is incredibly convenient for application designers. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 17 16:47:55 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: SGML lawyer questions Message-ID: <37402BFB.99EAEF77@locke.ccil.org> These are off-topic for this list, but SGML stuff shows up on occasion, so I figure I'll post them here rather than searching for an SGML list, especially as I know there are mavins here.... Consider the following two document instances in reference concrete syntax (the ### lines are not part of the documents): ### start here ### ]> this is text ### end here ### ### start here ### ]> this is text starting with 3 spaces ### end here ### My questions: 1) Are these documents valid? 2) What is the content of the TEXT element in each document? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon May 17 16:49:17 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <007201bea048$9e4b0a40$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <199905171448.KAA12461@hesketh.net> At 11:35 AM 5/17/99 +0200, Oren Ben-Kiki wrote: >We are agreed on that as well. The question is, what is the best way to >ensure this? We have several alternatives: > >1. Leave 'behavior' unspecified and rely on people's common sense. >2. Make it a requirement that values to 'behavior' must be URIs. >3. Use XML namespace mechanism instead to qualify the attribute name, >instead of its values. > >The spec now uses option (1), which I think is unsatisfactory. Let us at >least have an editorial note recommending URI values! Paul (I presume) and >myself would rather have option (3), as being more in tune with other XML >standards (namespaces). But (2) also gets the job done. Given that (2) >requires a very minor change to the spec as it stands (just adding a >sentence or two), I guess it is the most practical one. If that's what it >takes to get the spec out the door, so be it. How much more weight should we really be putting on URIs? We're going to need to be issuing directories of URIs and their meanings in different (Web, namespaces, now XLink) context if this keeps up. I realize that they're about the only mechanism for which large-scale unique registration is currently available, but wow, this could be genuinely ugly in a few years (even months!). Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Mon May 17 16:57:08 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <199905171417.KAA08380@mail.his.com> References: <4.2.0.37.19990515070125.01c95b90@mail.userland.com> <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18CF@eukbant101.ericss on.se> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990517074847.01d22c70@mail.userland.com> Thanks for reminding me of the flaw in CDF that RSS addresses. CDF asked you to name N pages on your site that should be watched for changes. RSS doesn't require that the pages be on your site, and further, it assumes that they could be different from day to day. This reflects what's actually happening in WebLand. Each story gets its own URL. That way when I go look for it two months from now it's still there. I remember programming CDF support in Frontier and realizing it had nothing to do with the kinds of sites people actually do. To me, that's why CDF didn't go anywhere. Why is RSS a milestone for XML? Because it's being so widely supported by webmasters of news oriented sites. Dave At 07:18 AM 5/17/99 , Jeffrey Ricker wrote: >Sorry for the delay in response. Short vacation with the family. > >First things first: Of course CDF is XML. It is one of the very first uses >of XML. > >You would be hard pressed to say I am in the Microsoft ecosystem, but lets >give credit where its due. Yes, channels were overhyped and didn't go >anywhere. (I personally believe the same fate awaits portals.) > >But look at the underlying purpose and capability of a CDF file. I >designates a group of related files, describes them and tells you if and >when they change. Now that's practical and it works. > >Are you going to tell me CDF is complicated? If you want complicated, look >at ICE! But then realize that ICE is industrial strength content >syndication, not intended for the pedestrian web page hacker. > >Climb under the hood of PointCast some time. It is very simple, make that >practical, technology. CDF didn't meet all their needs, but they didn't >throw the baby out with the bathwater. They didn't reinvent anything. They >simply extended it. Isn't that what we did with HTML for the past few years? > >PS. Why do you call it a milestone, anyway? > >At 07:03 AM 5/15/99 -0700, Dave Winer wrote: > >I haven't answered this question because I don't know the answer. Who knows > >how anyone else thinks? Especially a big corporation that's just been > >acquired by an even bigger corporation? Anyway, from my POV, CDF is a dead > >horse. We did some work with it when it first came out, but it seemed > >fairly useless and never went anywhere that I could see. Beyond that, I > >have not got a clue what CDF was supposed to do that anyone wanted. RSS on > >the other hand is quite useful, and lots of people are getting on the RSS > >train, so of course we supported it enthusiastically. That's the big > >picture from where I sit. Dave > > > > > >At 01:36 AM 5/14/99 , Matthew Sergeant (EML) wrote: > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > >> > > >> > Dave, > >> > Why did Netscape feel it necessary to invent RSS rather than use CDF as > >> > Microsoft, DataChannel, PointCast, etc. do? > >> > > >> > > >> Perhaps because CDF isn't XML? > >> > >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/channel/cdf1/cdf1.asp > >> http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/delivery/cdf/reference/xml.asp > >> > >> Matt. > >> > >> > >>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > >>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > >>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > >>To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > >>(un)subscribe xml-dev > >>To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following >message; > >>subscribe xml-dev-digest > >>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > >(un)subscribe xml-dev > >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > >subscribe xml-dev-digest > >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon May 17 17:09:03 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18DB@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > > Sorry for the delay in response. Short vacation with the family. > > First things first: Of course CDF is XML. It is one of the very first uses > of XML. > It used "MSXML" before XML 1.0 was released - hence it can't be parsed by an XML parser. The XML declaration is uppercase in every example of CDF I've seen. Including all on the MS web site. Therefore their CDF parser is categorically not an XML parser. They really should have made an effort to change this - it's been pointed out to them enough already, and the XML spec is over a year old. That's what I meant by CDF isn't XML, and I stand by that point. Point expat at the CDF examples and you get: not well-formed at line 1, column 5, byte 5 Matt. PS: What really worries me about the above practice (using something in such a widely used browser, based on a non-ratified-standard) is that in the future, all CDF parsers have to now deal with uppercase - that's bad and wrong, and it's going to happen again with XSL. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Mon May 17 17:59:24 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <00d001bea07d$bd01cac0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Simon St.Laurent wrote: >How much more weight should we really be putting on URIs? We're going to >need to be issuing directories of URIs and their meanings in different >(Web, namespaces, now XLink) context if this keeps up. I realize that >they're about the only mechanism for which large-scale unique registration >is currently available, but wow, this could be genuinely ugly in a few >years (even months!). It's genuinely ugly already :-) As you point out, don't really have a choice. The alternatives have been pretty thoroughly discussed in the SAX extensions naming threads a few months back, and all boil down to URIs or something else based on DNS. I haven't thought of the problem of the same URI used in different contexts (namespaces, XLink, maybe a name in XSLT). I think the recommended practice should be not to use the same URI in more then one context. I'd hesitate to make it an actual requirement, though, unless sufficient experience is gained. Another thing to keep in mind for version 2 of your favorite XML standard... Have fun, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Mon May 17 18:01:49 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: XML Document creation using SAX model Message-ID: <19990517154433.19520.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi, I am looking for an sample program for creating an XML Document using the SAX model. Any one out there who has tried creating one. Please let me know. Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From eisen at pobox.com Mon May 17 18:09:34 1999 From: eisen at pobox.com (Jonathan Eisenzopf) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18DB@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: <373FA463.AED793@pobox.com> "Matthew Sergeant (EML)" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Jeffrey Ricker [SMTP:ricker@xmls.com] > > > > Sorry for the delay in response. Short vacation with the family. > > > > First things first: Of course CDF is XML. It is one of the very first uses > > of XML. > > > The XML declaration is uppercase in every example of CDF I've seen. Including all on the MS web site. Therefore their CDF parser is categorically not an XML parser. That's what I meant by CDF isn't XML, and I stand by that point. Of course, Matt's correct and I don't think we should back down on pressing the issue. It does beg the question, what to do with older parsers and XML files? Check the declaration before parsing or just ignore and let it fail? As long as it's not built into the parser one can easily handle the uppercase declarations. Jonathan. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rposton at austin.ibm.com Mon May 17 18:29:24 1999 From: rposton at austin.ibm.com (rposton@austin.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Any other good XML lists or newsletters? Message-ID: <199905171628.LAA26036@einstein.austin.ibm.com> This list is great for technical issues. But can anyone recommend another list or free newsletter that covers higher level issues such as XML trends, strategies, industry news on XML, analysis of XML market, etc.? I already know about the various XML web sites. thanks ________________________________ Rick Poston IBM RS/6000 Division; Austin, TX ________________________________ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Mon May 17 18:33:54 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <373FA463.AED793@pobox.com> References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18DB@eukbant101.ericsson.se> Message-ID: <199905171632.MAA16574@hesketh.net> At 05:08 AM 5/17/99 +0000, Jonathan Eisenzopf wrote: [re: CDF] >Of course, Matt's correct and I don't think we should back >down on pressing the issue. It does beg the question, what >to do with older parsers and XML files? Check the declaration >before parsing or just ignore and let it fail? As long as it's >not built into the parser one can easily handle the uppercase >declarations. CDF isn't going to go anywhere further unless they clean up their code and become 'genuine' XML. A key part of XML's infrastructure is that any XML document should work in any XML parser, and the only parser I'm aware of that provides 'legacy' compatibility for CDF's approach is Microsoft's. (DataChannel may have inherited it.) Microsoft could post a simple CDF-fixer application, change their examples, push 'real' XML syntax for CDF. I haven't seen this yet, though I'd certainly welcome it. The point of XML is not to accomodate ideas Microsoft had while XML was still in development - the point of XML seems to be to create a format that different programs on different platforms can always read reliably. Accomodating Microsoft's 'goof' is a hassle for parser designers and application designers, and it seems much more reasonable for Microsoft to recommend that people change their CDF from the old format (which only works in MS-land) to 'true' XML, which will work in both MS-land and the rest of the XML universe. Pre-processing information that's supposed to be XML already before feeding it to the parser doesn't seem like an especially good use of resources, to say the least, and mangles the parser component architectures already in widespread use. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Mon May 17 18:40:12 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: RDF et IDL ? In-Reply-To: <199905111452.QAA18888@chimay.loria.fr> Message-ID: <001401bea083$dadc6770$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> > 1/ Could it be possible to do a mapping between an RDF schema > specification > and an IDL interface (a kind of rdftoidl) ? Looking for some > information... Well, if someone had (1) a mapping between RDF schemas and XML schemas, and (2) a mapping between XML schemas and IDL, those would give you what you want --- and two mappings that have many further uses themselves! xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 18:47:18 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) In-Reply-To: <00d001bea07d$bd01cac0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> References: <00d001bea07d$bd01cac0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14144.18156.9708.23255@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > Simon St.Laurent wrote: > >How much more weight should we really be putting on URIs? We're going to > >need to be issuing directories of URIs and their meanings in different > >(Web, namespaces, now XLink) context if this keeps up. I realize that > >they're about the only mechanism for which large-scale unique registration > >is currently available, but wow, this could be genuinely ugly in a few > >years (even months!). > > It's genuinely ugly already :-) As you point out, don't really have a > choice. The alternatives have been pretty thoroughly discussed in the SAX > extensions naming threads a few months back, and all boil down to URIs or > something else based on DNS. One possible solution would be to define a new URL protocol that builds on HTTP URLs -- not as fancy as URNs, but they would build on something that exists and is well understood: hname://www.megginson.com/ns/ It's not enough simply to build on DNS, since many people have rights (however temporary) over part of a path but not over an entire host name, as is the case for my account on Sprynet: http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/ In place of this, you could use hname://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins/namespace/ (for example) to build on this tiny patch of Web real-estate that I rent. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 18:47:53 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:05 2004 Subject: XML Document creation using SAX model In-Reply-To: <19990517154433.19520.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> References: <19990517154433.19520.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <14144.18364.800531.225821@localhost.localdomain> Mallikarjuna Sangappa writes: > I am looking for an sample program for creating an XML Document > using the SAX model. Any one out there who has tried creating > one. Please let me know. Thanks in advance. http://www.jclark.com/xml/XMLTest.java All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 17 18:49:22 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: SGML lawyer questions References: <199905171520.RAA06254@brown.cs.uni-dortmund.de> Message-ID: <374047FD.FDF10172@locke.ccil.org> Stefan Mintert wrote: > > 1) Are these documents valid? > > 2) What is the content of the TEXT element in each document? > > Below is the answer from nsgmls. Please note that the files are read from > STDIN (I used ### to separate end of input from begin of output) Okay, so far so good. nsgmls doesn't think that leading blanks are part of the root element (i.e. the start-tag is inferred only when non-blank content is seen). Next question: why is this behavior the Right Thing? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 18:56:00 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <373FA463.AED793@pobox.com> References: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A18DB@eukbant101.ericsson.se> <373FA463.AED793@pobox.com> Message-ID: <14144.18430.553499.259945@localhost.localdomain> Jonathan Eisenzopf writes: > Of course, Matt's correct and I don't think we should back down on > pressing the issue. It does beg the question, what to do with older > parsers and XML files? Check the declaration before parsing or just > ignore and let it fail? As long as it's not built into the parser > one can easily handle the uppercase declarations. (I'm not certain that it begs the question, but it certainly raises it.) Fortunately, there *are* no old versions of XML -- there's nothing but XML 1.0 out there, and the people in the W3C's XML Activity have (amazingly, for standards writers) resisted the very strong temptation to fiddle with it for well over a year, now. In other words, the problem is how to convert something that is *not* XML (such as CDF, HTML 4.0, TeX, RTF, etc.) to XML. Since CDF has strong similarities to XML, a little Perl might do the trick, but it is important to note that CDF is not XML, and since client-side push is a double-plus-ungood-stock-price-sinking-dirty-nasty word, I'd be surprised if anyone bothered to make it into XML now (people seldom enjoy maintaining their failures). Now, if there were an XML 1.1, an XML 2.0, etc., we'd have version-management problems: it is hard to build a market on a spec that is constantly changing. Fortunately, there's nothing out there but XML 1.0, and it turns out to be good enough, warts and all. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Mon May 17 19:02:23 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Any other good XML lists or newsletters? In-Reply-To: <199905171628.LAA26036@einstein.austin.ibm.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990517130007.00b04a50@nexus.polaris.net> At 11:28 AM 05/17/1999 -0500, rposton@austin.ibm.com wrote: >But can anyone recommend another list or free newsletter >that covers higher level issues such as XML trends, >strategies, industry news on XML, analysis of XML market, etc.? Check out XML News, a free e-mail newsletter sponsored by Aeneid Corporation (with which I'm not affiliated). It's a weekly listing of pointers to news (breaking and otherwise) and features, on-line around the Web. To *subscribe* to XML News, email subscribe-xmlnews@aeneid.com To *unsubscribe* to XML News, email unsubscribe-xmlnews@aeneid.com To *contribute* to XML News, email xmlnews@aeneid.com ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 20:01:54 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: RDF et IDL ? References: <001401bea083$dadc6770$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <374053AF.3B79C793@prescod.net> Mike Spreitzer wrote: > > > 1/ Could it be possible to do a mapping between an RDF schema > > specification > > and an IDL interface (a kind of rdftoidl) ? Looking for some > > information... > > Well, if someone had (1) a mapping between RDF schemas and XML schemas, > and (2) a mapping between XML schemas and IDL, those would give you what > you want --- and two mappings that have many further uses themselves! I think that RDF schemas have a lot more in common with IDL than XML schemas do...concepts of nodes and properties, properties can be richly structured etc. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Mon May 17 20:09:35 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Arguments to be passed to the program Message-ID: <19990517175209.16822.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi, Please let me know the actual arguments to be passed to the program with a sample command line. Thank U. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 17 20:24:24 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <87256774.0064FC08.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >From: Lars Marius Garshol >Date: 14 May 1999 09:03:17 +0200 >Subject: Re: Again wit da AND and Repetitions > >* John Cowan >| >| IIRC the canonical way of doing (A & B & C) is to transform it into >| (A | B | C)* and then do a post-check that each of A, B, C appears >| exactly once. As opposed to brute-force expansion into a DFA. > >Hmmm. It sounds as if this could be extended to handle {n,m}A as well. >Just transform it into A+ (or *, depending on n) and do a post-check >that the number is correct. > >In fact, this solution looks relatively easy to implement. > I don't think it would work in the general sense, because you have lost the original semantics of the model when you convert it. You would need some way to 'attach' the original semantics onto particular states of the DFA. For instance, this model: ( (A{1..2},B,C,D?,E?) | (A{3..5},B,C,D,E)) If you converted this to: ((A+,B,C,D?,E?) | (A+,B,C,D,E)) And you got a content of: A,A,B,C,D,E what would you do to go back and check it? The original content model is pretty unambiguous. If you get one to two As, then D and E are optional. If you get 3 to 5 As, then D and E are not. But in the DFA, that would be pretty ambiguous, wouldn't it? How would you know which of them was the one that the DFA considered a match? How would you associate some end state (in the very interwoven set of states that a DFA would create for this model) with some auxillary data structure that you would use to go back and post check it? I admit I might be missing something here and didn't have a lot of time to think this argument out. I think I could have come up with a much worse scenario, but this one seems hard enough on the surface of it? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr Mon May 17 20:31:22 1999 From: Patrice.Bonhomme at loria.fr (Patrice Bonhomme) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: RDF et IDL ? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 17 May 1999 09:39:37 PDT." <001401bea083$dadc6770$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> Message-ID: <199905171828.UAA01274@chimay.loria.fr> spreitze@parc.xerox.com said: ] Well, if someone had (1) a mapping between RDF schemas and XML ] schemas, and (2) a mapping between XML schemas and IDL, those would ] give you what you want --- and two mappings that have many further ] uses themselves! Gasp, no !... RDF and XML are not present at the same level. So u can not have: RDF <-> XML && XML <-> IDL then RDF <-> IDL Both RDF and IDL are used for describing class hierarchies, so i though that it should be intuitive to have a mapping between RDF and IDL. Pat. -- ============================================================== bonhomme@loria.fr | Office : B.228 http://www.loria.fr/~bonhomme | Phone : 03 83 59 30 52 -------------------------------------------------------------- * Serveur Silfide : http://www.loria.fr/projets/Silfide ============================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Mon May 17 20:39:45 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Problems validating the W3C schema DTD's Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF52D@RED-MSG-08> Brant Dainow wrote, regarding Microsoft's MSXML parser, "It spits an error that attribute 'xlmns' must be type #FIXED. Any comments?" The MSXML parser requires that any "xmlns" attribute declared in a DTD must be FIXED because, if you want to use the DTD to validate an instance, you must use exactly the same prefixes in the instance as were used in the DTD. Looking at the same point from another angle, DTDs do not treat namespace prefixes as symbolic intermediaries, but instead as ordinary characters in element and attribute names. As such, their binding is fixed by the author of the DTD, and any alteration of the binding in a document instance would produce an instance no longer described by that DTD. Presumably the work now underway in the W3C XML Schemas Activity will loosen this restriction. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 17 20:40:24 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <87256774.0066624B.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >I don't remember SQL ever adopting the view that the only integrity >constraints you were allowed to specify were those that could be evaluated >in linear time. In fact, the refusal to build implementation-based >limitations into the language was one of the major reasons for the success >of SQL. > >(In implementing GedML I discovered that the integrity constraints that I >could specify in the DTD were such a pathetic subset of the total that I >might as well do all the validation in the application and ignore the DTD >capabilities entirely - especially as I had no way via the SAX API of >knowing whether the parser had done any validation or not). > I guess my argument though is that whatever you put in, its either too much or too little. Therefore, you should have a small, fast and compact set of built in constraints and provide for an escape mechanism for more complex constraints. I guess the argument against your argument would be that SQL is still an extremely limited mechanism. XML will be much more widely applicable and even if you made it ten times as large, complex, and piggy, you still won't handle a major fraction of the constraint requirements (in terms of structure and data typing) that the whole world will want, so some sort of layered escape mechanism is desirable no matter what you do. So why put in stuff that will be very heavy and for which everyone will pay when it still won't be enough? Keep the core fast and simple and applicable to what it was originally designed for, and push the heavy stuff out to the periphery or the application. I don't consider Schema to be the periphery, I consider it to be something that will become a core piece of the system, so everyone will pay for any pigginess in it. Just my opinion of course... xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 17 20:48:23 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <87256774.00670FBD.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> From: terje@in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Sat, 15 May 1999 13:21:36 -0700 Subject: >>Actually it does not require deterministic models, it just allows you to check >>for them. And, I guess its not really what XML does or does not do that's in >>question here, its what the new upcoming schema spec proposes to do that's at >>issue. > >The XML 1.0 specification, 3.2.1 states that: > >"For compatability, it is an error if an element in the document can match >more than one occurance of an element type in the content model". > >See also Appendix E to the specification, which describes in further detail >what is meant by a deterministic and ambigous content model. > >It follows from the definition that a validating XML parser doesn't have to >look ahead. This is important as it simplifies implementing validation. > Sorry, I'd read too many things that day. I was reading deterministic and thinking ambiguous for some reason. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Mon May 17 20:51:51 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions / Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: <87256774.00677796.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> >>But I guess the & syntax from SGML is deceptively simple. I don't >>completely follow that other thread, but I gather it's hard to implement >>which is probably why they left it out of XML. > >No, it is not particularly hard to implement support for the AND connector >in a validating parser. However, the AND connector is redundant, as one can >express the same using the other connectors (although not very elegant). > >For example, take the content model (A & B & C) expressing that we require >the three elements in any order. Here is the XML equivalent content model: [snip] >However, there are better ways of implementing support for AND connectors >than to convert AND content model into such tree structures. Simply make >the parser keep track of which elements in the AND list have not yet been >parsed. For each element encountered, remove its item from the list. Signal >an error if the parser encounter an element not in the list of remainders, >unless all of the remainding elements in the list are optional. Repeat >until the list is empty or a parsed element is not in the list and all >remainders are optional. > But that ignores the issue of what happens when an AND connector is embedded deeply with some very complex content model that is otherwise totally a straight XML type DFA! Do you then give up on doing a DFA for the entire content model when that happens? If not, then how do you do it? If you do, then its not terribly simple to do and its definitely not terribly quick. This gets back to my original question of how to deal with AND. Some of the suggestions do ok in simple situations, but are much harder if they must be generalized to deal with arbitrarily complex content models, which they must in the real world. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Mon May 17 20:54:35 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? Message-ID: <37406619.D013F069@mitre.org> Anyone have a tool that converts a document that is formatted in a non-XML syntax into XML? I have tried Suli Ding's "Document to XML Converter" but it has so little documentation that I find it difficult to make heads or tails of it. /Roger xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 21:05:55 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: SAX2: Alpha Documentation Message-ID: <14144.26397.60878.975165@localhost.localdomain> I've thrown together a quick-and-dirty SAX2 site at http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ There is no code yet, but there's a little documentation and lists of interfaces, features, and properties, at least. I haven't included the new handler types yet, but they'll come along sooner or later (all of the infrastructure for them is in place). So far, this is very simple, and that simplicity appeals to me. This site is not yet linked from the main SAX page. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 21:13:07 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? In-Reply-To: <37406619.D013F069@mitre.org> References: <37406619.D013F069@mitre.org> Message-ID: <14144.26717.620248.493022@localhost.localdomain> Roger L. Costello writes: > Anyone have a tool that converts a document that is formatted in a > non-XML syntax into XML? Perl -- it's hideously ugly, but most of the world uses it and it runs pretty fast (especially when pattern matching). Here's a ten-line Perl program that will convert most non-XML text files to XML (as long as they don't contain control characters): print "\n"; while (<>) { if (/[&<>]/) { s/&/\&\;/g; s//\>\;/g; } print; } print ""; All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From DuCharmR at moodys.com Mon May 17 21:30:01 1999 From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? Message-ID: <84285D7CF8E9D2119B1100805FD40F9F255280@MDYNYCMSX1> >Anyone have a tool that converts a document that is formatted in a >non-XML syntax into XML? I have tried Suli Ding's "Document to XML >Converter" but it has so little documentation that I find it difficult >to make heads or tails of it. /Roger "Non-XML syntax" is a pretty broad target. If a program is going to read non-XML input and then use XML markup to identify its structure in the output, it has to have some way of identifying the structure of the input. This means being specialized to read specific kinds of input. For example, Rick Geimer's RTF2XML (http://www.sesha.com/omlette/rtf2xml/) reads RTF and outputs XML. What kind of input do you have? Bob DuCharme www.snee.com/bob see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML: The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 17 21:38:22 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990517123834.01219de0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:12 PM 5/17/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Here's a ten-line Perl program that will convert most non-XML text >files to XML Has anyone told Jesse Berst? I smell an IPO coming... -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 17 21:47:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Problems validating the W3C schema DTD's References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF52D@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <37406AB0.A27650A3@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > The MSXML parser requires that any "xmlns" attribute declared in a DTD must > be FIXED because, if you want to use the DTD to validate an instance, you > must use exactly the same prefixes in the instance as were used in the DTD. Nevertheless the parser rejects documents that are valid both according to the XML and XML namespaces specification. > Looking at the same point from another angle, DTDs do not treat namespace > prefixes as symbolic intermediaries, but instead as ordinary characters in > element and attribute names. As such, their binding is fixed by the author > of the DTD, and any alteration of the binding in a document instance would > produce an instance no longer described by that DTD. When that occurs you can signal the error. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From boblyons at unidex.com Mon May 17 22:01:41 1999 From: boblyons at unidex.com (Robert C. Lyons) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? Message-ID: <01BEA07E.CD115060@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Roger wrote: "Anyone have a tool that converts a document that is formatted in a non-XML syntax into XML?" Roger, XML Convert might be able to convert your non-XML document into XML. XML Convert can convert a wide range of flat files into XML. It uses a flat file schema to parse and validate the flat file and convert it into an XML document. You can download XML Convert for free at http://www.unidex.com/download.htm. Best regards, Bob ------ Bob Lyons EC Consultant Unidex Inc. 1-732-975-9877 boblyons@unidex.com http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 17 22:53:44 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful Message-ID: <374081AA.B4D33B56@locke.ccil.org> The [insert a certain W3 WG] folks have been deciding what to do about extending their interfaces xxx.Foo and xxx.Bar (not their real names) while adding a new level of their standard. They seem to have settled on just adding methods to the existing interfaces, a form of evolution which Java directly allows, and which works well in dynamic scripting languages (Javascript, Perl, etc.) COM implementations (which are not directly prescribed by the standard) will probably use Foo2, Bar2, and so on, because of special COM considerations, but that will not affect the standard, which will merely document at exactly what level (1, 2, etc.) a given property or method was added to the standard. I think that the use of Parser2 should be reconsidered in favor of just extending Parser. There are several arguments: 1) Either Parser2 inherits from Parser or it doesn't. If it doesn't (and underlying objects just implement both interfaces) then much casting must be done to get the right flavor to call a method on. This is very expensive in Java. If they do inherit, then you have the problem that Parser may be extended in several logically distinct ways, leading to interfaces Parser2A and Parser2B. The next generation will have to specify Parser3A, B, and C all inheriting from Parser2A *and* Parser2B, which causes a messy diamond-shaped inheritance graph. 2) Applications written to run against SAX1 Parser can be linked with SAX2 Parser with no issues. Applications written to run against SAX2 and linked with SAX1 parsers can run in degraded mode by catching a NoSuchMethodError or its equivalent when trying to use SAX2 features. With Parser2, the application would die with ClassNotFoundError. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 17 23:07:06 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:06 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful In-Reply-To: <374081AA.B4D33B56@locke.ccil.org> References: <374081AA.B4D33B56@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14144.33471.649589.158553@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > The [insert a certain W3 WG] folks have been deciding what to do > about extending their interfaces xxx.Foo and xxx.Bar (not their > real names) while adding a new level of their standard. > > They seem to have settled on just adding methods to the existing > interfaces, a form of evolution which Java directly allows, and > which works well in dynamic scripting languages (Javascript, Perl, > etc.) Yes, I believe that a similar point came up during our SAX-naming discussions earlier. > COM implementations (which are not directly prescribed by the > standard) will probably use Foo2, Bar2, and so on, because of > special COM considerations, but that will not affect the standard, > which will merely document at exactly what level (1, 2, etc.) a > given property or method was added to the standard. > > I think that the use of Parser2 should be reconsidered in favor of > just extending Parser. There are several arguments: > > 1) Either Parser2 inherits from Parser or it doesn't. If it > doesn't (and underlying objects just implement both interfaces) > then much casting must be done to get the right flavor to call a > method on. This is very expensive in Java. Actually, that wouldn't matter in any significant way, since the casting would have to be done only once for each document parsed (Parser is a top-level entry point). I wouldn't worry about what is or isn't expensive until we were dealing with code run repeatedly in a tight loop or for each parse event. > If they do inherit, then you have the problem that Parser may be > extended in several logically distinct ways, leading to interfaces > Parser2A and Parser2B. The next generation will have to specify > Parser3A, B, and C all inheriting from Parser2A *and* Parser2B, > which causes a messy diamond-shaped inheritance graph. That's the main reason for the shift to get/setFeature/Property -- while it screws around with type safety a little, it should eliminate (most) of the need for subclassing Parser2 any further. The main point is that, while XML itself is stable, what people want to do with XML is not -- if SAX is going to move forward, we need something open and extensible, so that some parsers can introduce and support new features without messing around with the Java class signatures. > 2) Applications written to run against SAX1 Parser can be linked with > SAX2 Parser with no issues. Applications written to run against SAX2 > and linked with SAX1 parsers can run in degraded mode by catching > a NoSuchMethodError or its equivalent when trying to use SAX2 > features. With Parser2, the application would die with > ClassNotFoundError. It's possible to test for the availability of a class in Java, if an application writer were worried about that -- what it really comes down to is the fact that you'll always have to use some kind of try {} catch {} statement if you're worried about whether SAX2 is available in your environment. All the best, and thanks for the comments, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Mon May 17 23:42:34 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free References: <3.0.1.32.19990511124821.013434c0@mail.accessone.com> <37389D38.C1678675@prescod.net> <3738C39C.76789562@nsc.com> <4.1.19990513100119.00c251a0@steptwo.com.au> <373CBA59.2A7832BC@prescod.net> <373F66A1.2CEFAF63@allette.com.au> <373FC334.BFAC2EFE@prescod.net> Message-ID: <37408D33.F990030@allette.com.au> [Cross posted to XSL and XML-Dev] If the major impediments to the adoption of OmniMark are cost and the fact that it's proprietary, this must surely change the equation for a few people. Maybe I'm biased, but I see this as one of the big announcements of the year. > OmniMark Technologies Corporation challenges Perl > Company announces OmniMark 5 programming language is free > > New Orleans, Louisiana - May 17, 1999 - OmniMark Technologies Corporation, > developer of the OmniMark? programming language, made several significant > product announcements at its OmniMark Developers Conference today. > > OmniMark president and CEO John McFadden announced the OmniMark programming > language is now free. The programming language has developed a strong > following since it was first introduced 10 years ago. > > A high level language, OmniMark is a clear alternative to Perl for > developing server-based web or network applications and CGI scripts without > having to make the leap to Java. > > "OmniMark programs are easier to write, read, and maintain," said John > McFadden. "OmniMark 5 combines a server safe network programming model with > an unmatched text processing language. Throw in its intuitive, integrated > approach to XML and you have a compelling combination." > > To make programming in OmniMark even easier, McFadden also announced the > release of the OmniMark Integrated Development Environment (IDE). This > powerful Windows-based environment includes an OmniMark-smart editor and > interactive debugger which lets developers write, analyze, and perfect > applications quickly and cost effectively. For example, the IDE can be used > to quickly develop and test CGI scripts interactively without invoking a web > server. OmniMark IDE can be purchased over the web for $995. > > A free, full-featured version of the OmniMark IDE, called OmniMark Home and > School, is available for personal and academic use. > > OmniMark already has a large following among Global 2000 companies who have > come to appreciate the robustness and ease of use of the language. Among the > attendees at this year's developers conference are representatives from > Boeing, IBM, Nokia Telecomunications, Airborne Express, and Underwriters > Laboratory. > > To find out more about obtaining free OmniMark software, visit their > website. > -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Mon May 17 23:58:21 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6ADC@master.design-intelligence.com> I put an option in my parser for the pre 1.0 XML style since some of the XML examples on the net are in that style, the Shakespeare plays for instance. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com ---------- From: David Megginson [SMTP:david@megginson.com] Sent: Monday, May 17, 1999 9:55 AM To: XML Developers' List Subject: re: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML Jonathan Eisenzopf writes: > Of course, Matt's correct and I don't think we should back down on > pressing the issue. It does beg the question, what to do with older > parsers and XML files? Check the declaration before parsing or just > ignore and let it fail? As long as it's not built into the parser > one can easily handle the uppercase declarations. (I'm not certain that it begs the question, but it certainly raises it.) Fortunately, there *are* no old versions of XML -- there's nothing but XML 1.0 out there, and the people in the W3C's XML Activity have (amazingly, for standards writers) resisted the very strong temptation to fiddle with it for well over a year, now. In other words, the problem is how to convert something that is *not* XML (such as CDF, HTML 4.0, TeX, RTF, etc.) to XML. Since CDF has strong similarities to XML, a little Perl might do the trick, but it is important to note that CDF is not XML, and since client-side push is a double-plus-ungood-stock-price-sinking-dirty-nasty word, I'd be surprised if anyone bothered to make it into XML now (people seldom enjoy maintaining their failures). Now, if there were an XML 1.1, an XML 2.0, etc., we'd have version-management problems: it is hard to build a market on a spec that is constantly changing. Fortunately, there's nothing out there but XML 1.0, and it turns out to be good enough, warts and all. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From deke at tallent.com Tue May 18 00:22:40 1999 From: deke at tallent.com (Deke Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: A milestone in XML Message-ID: <1285142778-61436514@server2.tallent.com> On 5/15/99 5:07 PM Lars Marius Garshol at larsga@ifi.uio.no said: >When I first started looking at RSS I immediately noticed two things: > > a) it's incredibly simple (too simple, in fact) > b) it's probably the most widely supported XML application so far, > both in terms of software and content > >To me this smells like worse-is-better again, and I think that's a >good answer to your question. Remember the Bauhuas mantra: "Form follows function." For what it is used for, a low stress way for self-published sites to expose their index, it is very appropriate. Especially since most of these self-published sites are produced by individuals who don't care to delve into intricacies of any standard. As someone who is chagrined to see large corporations carving the Internet up amongst theirselves I am excited to see tools that give a voice and audience to the "common people." We're talking big magic here. The dark side of this sort of empowerment can be seen in Columbine here in the US. The positive power can be seen in sites like B92 from Yugoslavia. It is good to let a spoon be a spoon and not a food processor. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Deke Smith Tallent Communications Group, Brentwood TN deke@tallent.com, 615-661-9878 "Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow they may cancel your VISA." -Anon. ----------------------------------------------------------------- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com Tue May 18 00:28:17 1999 From: Marc.McDonald at Design-Intelligence.com (Marc.McDonald@Design-Intelligence.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions Message-ID: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6ADD@master.design-intelligence.com> Steve Dahl pointed out my mental typo minutes after posting and I cleverly replied to him and not xml-dev. I meant the case later described: ((c,d,e,f,g) | (c,d,e,f,h)). >From reading appendix E of the XML spec, I put a lot more work into my pattern validator than needed. It does element lookbehind, rolling back to last alternative when pattern fails. The appendix is still a bit ambiguous since it mentions algorithms to reduce non-deterministic patterns to deterministic ones and doesn't say if such reductions are required. It seems rather arbitrary to allow (b,c,(e | f)) but not ((b,c,e) | (b,c,f)). A manual re-write is not possible when the 2 patterns may have been created by entity parameters: A technique commonly used to enable the reuse element definititions in a DTD. Marc B McDonald Principal Software Scientist Design Intelligence, Inc www.design-intelligence.com ---------- From: David Brownell [SMTP:david-b@pacbell.net] Sent: Sunday, May 16, 1999 11:56 AM To: John Cowan Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Re: Again wit da AND and Repetitions John Cowan wrote: > > Mark McDonald wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > With an input of elements c, d, e, f, h in element x. > > And David Brownell replied: > > > Actually, the content model for "x" is in error there, so any > > XML processor is allowed to report an error however rudely it > > chooses to do so. That content model is "ambigious". > > I can only assume that both of you are suffering from brain farts. > Any "x" that contains anything but an "a" or a "b" is obviously > invalid. You are talking as if the above declarations were: > > > > > > Element declarations refer to lexically apparent objects (elements), > not to mere groups of elements defined by pseudo-BNF. Ah, yes ... I was reacting to the intent, not the exact wording! Thanks for catching that. There've been misstatements on this topic. The XML spec is clear that ambiguous content models are errors. What it does poorly is say exactly what that means; it basically boils down to a reality that documents better not have it, "or else". And any parser is free to do _whatever it wants_ when faced with such errors. - dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Tue May 18 04:25:38 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Again wit da AND and Repetitions / Singletons in a DTD Message-ID: At 11:50 AM 5/17/99, roddey@us.ibm.com wrote: >>>But I guess the & syntax from SGML is deceptively simple. I don't >>>completely follow that other thread, but I gather it's hard to implement >>>which is probably why they left it out of XML. >> >>No, it is not particularly hard to implement support for the AND connector >>in a validating parser. However, the AND connector is redundant, as one can >>express the same using the other connectors (although not very elegant). >> >>For example, take the content model (A & B & C) expressing that we require >>the three elements in any order. Here is the XML equivalent content model: > > [snip] > >>However, there are better ways of implementing support for AND connectors >>than to convert AND content model into such tree structures. Simply make >>the parser keep track of which elements in the AND list have not yet been >>parsed. For each element encountered, remove its item from the list. Signal >>an error if the parser encounter an element not in the list of remainders, >>unless all of the remainding elements in the list are optional. Repeat >>until the list is empty or a parsed element is not in the list and all >>remainders are optional. > >But that ignores the issue of what happens when an AND connector is embedded >deeply with some very complex content model that is otherwise totally a >straight >XML type DFA! Do you then give up on doing a DFA for the entire content model >when that happens? If not, then how do you do it? If you do, then its not >terribly simple to do and its definitely not terribly quick. This gets back to >my original question of how to deal with AND. Please provide an example of such a complex content model that includes use of AND, simplified as much as possible while still demonstrating your point. -- Terje | Media Design in*Progress Software for Mac Web Professionals at Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From b.laforge at jxml.com Tue May 18 05:16:33 1999 From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: SAX2: Alpha Documentation Message-ID: <004201bea0dc$a72631a0$c8a8a8c0@thing1> David, Very, very nice. Bill > http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/ > So far, this is very simple, and that simplicity appeals to me. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp Tue May 18 07:50:26 1999 From: murata at apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities Message-ID: <199905180549.AA00530@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Paul Prescod wrote: > MURATA Makoto wrote: > > > > Now that schemata are in the XML syntax, they can be parsed by XML processors. > > Thus, application programs can easily obtain additional information from > > schemata. We only have to allow XML schemata to have user-defined elements, > > which may be used by such application programs. > > If a schema parses some date text to validate it then having the > application do it again is inefficient and inconvenient. A schema could > also use content model information to report breaks between content model > chunks (if it "reported" non-terminals). This is incredibly convenient for > application designers. On the other hand, we cannot use SAX and DOM as is. Existing XML infrastructure will not work any more. Makoto Fuji Xerox Information Systems Tel: +81-44-812-7230 Fax: +81-44-812-7231 E-mail: murata@apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Tue May 18 12:37:51 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Letting well-formedness slip: was A milestone in XML In-Reply-To: <4454C011BDE5D211B6C800609776E5400B6ADC@master.design-intelligence.com> Message-ID: Although most of Microsoft's CDF examples use the upper-case XML declaration, I've used the lower case version in my own work, and that seems to work just fine. When Microsoft first defined CDF, the then draft of XML was case-insensitive. +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de Tue May 18 12:38:51 1999 From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: xmlns::#FIXED [Re: Problems validating the W3C schema DTD's] References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF52D@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <3741434F.3ED189CA@mecomnet.de> the quoted statement regarding DTD's is not universal. it would be more accurate to describe the restriction as: "MSXML does not treat namespace prefixes as symbolic intermediaries, but instead as ordinary characters in element and attribute names." there is nothing keeping a parser from inferring xmlns binding scope and performing prefix expansion. while it is true that this requires that the document's content models be complete and consistent, this not more restrictive the presumptions entailed by a #FIXED constraint and permits the DTD-user much greater latitude. Andrew Layman wrote: > > The MSXML parser requires that any "xmlns" attribute declared in a DTD must > be FIXED because, if you want to use the DTD to validate an instance, you > must use exactly the same prefixes in the instance as were used in the DTD. > > Looking at the same point from another angle, DTDs do not treat namespace > prefixes as symbolic intermediaries, but instead as ordinary characters in > element and attribute names. As such, their binding is fixed by the author > of the DTD, and any alteration of the binding in a document instance would > produce an instance no longer described by that DTD. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From costello at mitre.org Tue May 18 12:51:45 1999 From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? References: <01BEA07E.CD115060@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> Message-ID: <3741467A.97E39E0D@mitre.org> Thanks for all the responses to my message. I would like to clarify my original posting and present some thoughts on how this might relate to XSL. The documents that I am trying to convert to XML are slash-delimited. A double slash terminates a "set". A set is comprised of "fields". Here's a simple example: fruit/apple/red/macintosh// person/Roger/Boston /male/123-45-6789// Here I show two "sets". The second set extends over two lines. Each set is comprised of a number of fields. The first field in a set identifies the set type (it is the set identifier). I would like to convert this into an XML document that looks like this: apple red macintosh Roger Boston male 123-45-6789 The particular syntax here is not really important. The thing to note is that for a generic transformation engine to work you need to (1) supply it a description of the format of the document to be transformed. For this example, such info might be "slash-delimited, double slash terminated lines". (2) supply it the transformation rules. For example, rule: match="fruit" { field(2) field(3) field(4) } (3) and of course you need to supply it the actual document to be transformed. Interestingly, while driving in this morning I realized that this is what an XSL processor does. The only difference is that an XSL Processor has (1) hardcoded to use <...> as the delimiter. I think that it would be interesting to make an XSL Processor more generic such that you could "plug in" a format description document. Thus, the XSL Processor could transform not just XML documents, but any kind of documents. Comments? In any case, I will check out those URLs that people sent to me of conversion tools. Happy Tuesday! /Roger Robert C. Lyons wrote: > > Roger wrote: "Anyone have a tool that converts a document that is formatted in a > non-XML syntax into XML?" > > Roger, > > XML Convert might be able to convert your non-XML document into XML. > XML Convert can convert a wide range of flat files into XML. > It uses a flat file schema to parse and validate the flat file > and convert it into an XML document. > > You can download XML Convert for free at http://www.unidex.com/download.htm. > > Best regards, > > Bob > > ------ > Bob Lyons > EC Consultant > Unidex Inc. > 1-732-975-9877 > boblyons@unidex.com > http://www.unidex.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue May 18 13:01:39 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful Message-ID: John Cowan wrote, > If they do inherit, then you have the problem that > Parser may be extended in several logically distinct > ways, leading to interfaces Parser2A and Parser2B. > The next generation will have to specify Parser3A, B, > and C all inheriting from Parser2A *and* Parser2B, > which causes a messy diamond-shaped inheritance graph. It's not diamond inheritance per-se which is the problem, it's (as you point out) the potential for a combinatorial explosion of derived interfaces which is nasty. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue May 18 13:04:48 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > That's the main reason for the shift to > get/setFeature/Property -- while it screws around with > type safety a little, it should eliminate (most) of > the need for subclassing Parser2 any further. Yes, but these new methods are a natural extension of the *core* functionality of the Parser interface. As such I'm with John Cowan that they should be merged into Parser. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Tue May 18 15:15:15 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <19990518125749.9270.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi David, Please give me sample command line parameters that has to be passed to XMLTest.java program to create an XML Document through SAX model. Thank You. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Tue May 18 15:15:58 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Arguments to XMLTest.java Message-ID: <19990518125837.9565.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Hi David, Please give me sample command line parameters that has to be passed to XMLTest.java program to create an XML Document through SAX model. Thank You. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 18 15:29:32 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14145.27307.754830.951254@localhost.localdomain> Miles Sabin writes: > It's not diamond inheritance per-se which is the > problem, it's (as you point out) the potential for a > combinatorial explosion of derived interfaces which is > nasty. Some concrete examples might be helpful -- I know that the get/setFeature/Property methods in Parser2 are not a silver bullet, but under what circumstances might people want to subclass Parser2 further in the future? Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 18 15:55:46 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:07 2004 Subject: No subject In-Reply-To: <19990518125749.9270.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> References: <19990518125749.9270.rocketmail@web1.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <14145.28935.484460.995658@localhost.localdomain> Mallikarjuna Sangappa writes: > Please give me sample command line parameters that > has to be passed to XMLTest.java program to create an > XML Document through SAX model. Thank You. Try compiling XMLTest.java, then typing java XMLTest You should see a message specifying the arguments expected. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 18 16:07:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML Information Set WD Message-ID: <14145.29622.606052.509715@localhost.localdomain> I am happy to announce that the first XML Information Set Working Draft is now available from the W3C web site: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset Please send comments for the editors and Working Group to the address given in the WD. General discussion is, of course, welcome on any appropriate mailing list or newsgroup. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 18 16:37:08 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: Non-XML documents to XML Converter? References: <01BEA07E.CD115060@cc398234-a.etntwn1.nj.home.com> <3741467A.97E39E0D@mitre.org> Message-ID: <374171F8.CEFA7040@prescod.net> "Roger L. Costello" wrote: > > Interestingly, while driving in this morning I realized that this is > what an XSL processor does. The only difference is that an XSL > Processor has (1) hardcoded to use <...> as the delimiter. > > I think that it would be interesting to make an XSL Processor more > generic such that you could "plug in" a format description document. > Thus, the XSL Processor could transform not just XML documents, but any > kind of documents. Comments? >From a formal languages point of view your "format description document" is a grammar and grammar construction is not very easy. I mean your particular non-XML syntax is easy but what about the C++ grammar? I don't think that there is any grammar-based parsing tool that can both handle the full generality of context free languages and have high performance. :( Another way to approach it is to abandon the grammar and just embed the parsing logic directly in some computer program. This is typically what Perl, Python and Omnimark programmers do. (though there are formal parser packages for Perl and Python) For your simple language either mechanism would be easy. In fact it looks like about a fifteen line Python program to me. Here's the start of one that optimizes readability over performance: from string import split from fileinput import FileInput data = FileInput().read() records = split( data, "//" ) counter = 0 for record in recordstrings: counter = counter+1 parts = split( record, "/" ) if parts[0]=="fruit": print ""%(counter, parts[0]) ... elif parts[0]=="...": ... You can see how the "parsing" logic is spread through the program. In this case that doesn't matter much because the language is so simple. As an aside: your document type is a little odd. I don't think it is intuitive or convenient to give every message a unique generic identifier ("tagname"). The whole point of the generic identifier is that it should identify a *genre* -- i.e. all messages, or all fruit messages, etc. On the other hand, you've got something called "setid" which seems to me to be the right place for an element-unique identifier -- but you seem to have put the generic identifier there! -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue May 18 16:54:49 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: Parser2 considered harmful Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > Miles Sabin writes: > > It's not diamond inheritance per-se which is the > > problem, it's (as you point out) the potential for a > > combinatorial explosion of derived interfaces which is > > nasty. > > Some concrete examples might be helpful -- I know that > the get/setFeature/Property methods in Parser2 are not a > silver bullet, but under what circumstances might people > want to subclass Parser2 further in the future? Err ... no, that's not what I meant. getProperty() deals with things quite nicely. It's an example of something Erich Gamma calls the 'Extension Objects Pattern'. See, http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~schmidt/PLoP-96/gamma.txt (only an abstract I'm afraid). My point was more along the lines of getProperty() etc. are (or, at least, will be) core Parser functionality, and that they should, if possible, be defined in the main Parser interface, rather than relegated to an auxilliary extension interface. The various discussions on the DOM IG seem to have come to the conclusion that augmenting interfaces in this way isn't problematic in Java, and that it's the cleanest and most comprehensible solution to the interface evolution problem. The biggest problem with the Parser2 route is that it interacts badly with ParserFactory. ParserFactory's methods return Parsers, so if getProperty() is defined on Parser2 I have to cast before I can call it, and that's ugly, particularly since the cast might fail. ParserFactory can't be modified so that it's methods return Parser2s without breaking signature compatability with SAX1, but we can add the new methods directly to Parser without causing any problems. Actually, this probably needs a bit of clarification. I guess a rejoinder might be: doesn't this break compatibility with parsers which only implement the current Parser interface? Ie. with a current parser, wouldn't the effect of, Parser p = ParserFactory.makeParser(); p.setProperty ("http://xml.org/sax/properties/dtd-handler", myDTDHandler); be to throw a NoSuchMethodException? In fact this doesn't need to happen, because the SAX2 ParserFactory could do something like this, public static Parser makeParser() { Parser p; // Original stuff elided try { p.getProperty("dummy"); // we get here if we're SAX2 compatible ... return p; } catch(NoSuchMethodException ex) { // ... we get here if we're not. return new SAX1ParserAdapter(p); } } Where SAX1ParserAdapter is defined as follows, class SAX1ParserAdapter implements Parser { private Parser itsBaseParser; private DocumentHandler itsDocumentHandler = null; private DTDHandler itsDTDHandler = null; private EntityResolver itsEntityResolver = null; private ErrorHandler itsErrorHandler = null; private Locale itsLocale = null; public SAX1ParserAdapter(Parser baseParser) { itsBaseParser = baseParser; } public void setDocumentHandler (DocumentHandler handler) { // cache locally ... itsDocumentHandler = handler; // forward to underlying SAX1 parser ... itsBaseParser.setDocumentHandler(handler); } // etc. for for other Parser methods that can be // safely forwarded to a SAX1 parser. public void setFeature (String featureId, boolean state) { // throw relevant exceptions } public boolean getFeature(String featureId) { // return SAX1 compatible results or throw // relevant exceptions } public void setProperty (String propertyId, Object value) { // call SAX1 Parser.setXXXHandler() methods // where appropriate (and cache locally), or // throw relevant exceptions. } public Object getProperty(String propertyId) { // return locally cached handlers where // appropriate, or throw relevant exceptions. } } This should work with all possible combinations of SAX parsers, and SAX client applications. Case 1: SAX1 parser, SAX1 client No problem, it's the current situation. Case 2: SAX1 parser, SAX2 client No problem, dealt with by adapter as above. SAX2 client can use SAX2 methods without casting and without having to worry about NoSuchMethodExceptions. Case 3: SAX2 parser, SAX1 client No problem, SAX2 interfaces are backwards compatible. Case 4: SAX2 parser, SAX2 client. No problem. As in case 2, the SAX2 client can use SAX2 methods without casting and without having to worry about NoSuchMethodExceptions. Note that this assumes that a SAX2 client can only be built against SAX2 interfaces and classes (which is fine because that's guaranteed), and that a SAX2 client will be able to ensure that the SAX2 ParserFactory is on its classpath at runtime (which shouldn't be a problem). Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Tue May 18 17:04:47 1999 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: SAX2 and Acceptor/Connector Message-ID: <3741720E.E5F06EA3@jfinity.com> It seems to me that all of the new functionality in SAX2 can be described as create time negotiation between the consumer of XML parsing services and the provider. Once this negotiation has completed, the steady state usage of the parser is done via the same interfaces as in SAX1. There is a design pattern that addresses similar issues called the Acceptor/Connector pattern (http://www.cs.wustl.edu/~`schmidt/Acc-Con.ps.gz). I'm sure that you can come up with some use case that will seem to require you to modify the parser feature set on the fly in the middle of a parse but I'm equally sure that it would not outweigh the myriad benefits of applying the Acceptor/Connector pattern. An additional benefit of this approach is that the steady state interfaces can continue to be SAX1 and not impact the existing code base. This relates to the Parser2 thread. Cordially from Corvallis, Gabe Beged-Dov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 18 17:08:01 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities References: <199905180549.AA00530@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Message-ID: <37417799.5C1E7945@prescod.net> MURATA Makoto wrote: > > On the other hand, we cannot use SAX and DOM as is. As is? No. But we can build on them. We have to build on them to make schema parsers anyhow. And if a particular application does not need the extended schema information then it can work directly with the SAX 1 or DOM level 1. > Existing XML infrastructure will not work any more. We're just talking about a layer on top. XLink doesn't invalidate XML 1.0. It just means you need another layer of tools to get the full meaning of a document. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dante at mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov Tue May 18 17:33:23 1999 From: dante at mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov (Dante Lee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: unsubscribe Dante M. Lee Code 588 NASA/GSFC Greenbelt MD 20771 Voice = 301-521-1077 Bldg = 23 Rm = W415 Email = dante@mstirling.gsfc.nasa.gov dante4@hotmail.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Tue May 18 18:19:01 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: Argh...Entities In-Reply-To: <37417799.5C1E7945@prescod.net> References: <199905180549.AA00530@archlute.apsdc.ksp.fujixerox.co.jp> Message-ID: <199905181618.MAA29286@hesketh.net> At 09:22 AM 5/18/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >MURATA Makoto wrote: >> >> On the other hand, we cannot use SAX and DOM as is. > >As is? No. But we can build on them. We have to build on them to make >schema parsers anyhow. We _can_ build on them - but I have concerns that the (significantly larger and more complex) schema processing is going to get lumped in with the current XML 1.0 mechanism and give us bloated parsers that are difficult to control. I'd love to see the schema spec people describe in some fairly scandalous detail how exactly schemas should interact with XML 1.0 documents - and make sure that all schema-compliant docs are 1.0-compliant. I've made some proposals in my Layered Model article (http://www.simonstl.com/articles/layering/layered.htm) and XML Processing Description Language (XPDL - http://purl.oclc.org/NET/xpdl ). I'd like to see the schema WG and supporting groups make the connections between the various layers. >And if a particular application does not need the extended schema >information then it can work directly with the SAX 1 or DOM level 1. So we hope. >> Existing XML infrastructure will not work any more. > >We're just talking about a layer on top. XLink doesn't invalidate XML 1.0. >It just means you need another layer of tools to get the full meaning of a >document. As noted above, however, we need to make sure that the layering of those tools is well understood and that layers do not interfere with each other. I don't think we're nearly there yet. Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jhoward at requisite.com Tue May 18 18:34:34 1999 From: jhoward at requisite.com (Jerry Howard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML-Data Reduced (XDR) Message-ID: <37419650.81A1731B@requisite.com> I've seen several announcements about Microsoft's Biztalk initiative being XML based and references to "XML-Data Reduced (XDR)". Does anyone have pointers to more information on this? Here's the blurp from a press release announcement from last week: > XML-Data Reduced (XDR), the preferred syntax for BizTalk, in the next > version of cXML - XDR is an alternative to the Data Type Definitions > (DTDs) that are outlined in the Extensible Markup Language standard and > provides a richer way to define XML documents. a URL for the whole artcile is at: http://corp.ariba.com/News/AribaArchive/biztalk.htm Jerry xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Tue May 18 19:24:52 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML-Data Reduced (XDR) Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF541@RED-MSG-08> "XML-Data Reduced" (XDR) refers to a trimmed and improved version of the XML-Data schema syntax. The original XML-Data submission can be found at http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ . Information on XML-Data Reduced is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp . xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Tue May 18 21:00:55 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML-Data Reduced (XDR) Message-ID: <01BEA171.39E073E0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> > I've seen several announcements about Microsoft's Biztalk initiative > being XML based and references to "XML-Data Reduced (XDR)". Does anyone > have pointers to more information on this? See http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/XMLData-Reduced.htm. -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Tue May 18 21:04:53 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML-Data Reduced (XDR) [External Data Representation] References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF541@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <3741B970.179B5696@pacbell.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > "XML-Data Reduced" (XDR) refers to a trimmed and improved version of the > XML-Data schema syntax. The original XML-Data submission can be found at > http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ . Information on XML-Data Reduced > is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp . It'd be useful to use an acronym that's not already taken ... XDR has been defined for several years now. It's an IETF draft standard, in fact, and is in widespread use throughout the Internet. ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc1832.txt Since Microsoft's proposal has substantial overlap with the original XDR in terms of functionality (basic machine data types), I think it's clear that confusion will be happening. One way to reduce the confusion would be for Microsoft to put a reference to that IETF document, and suggest that people use terminology such as "Microsoft XDR" to disambiguate between the two. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mcheek at NetVendor.com Tue May 18 21:41:33 1999 From: mcheek at NetVendor.com (Mark Cheek) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML chaos Message-ID: first, to state the obvious.. i am an XML newbie. i have been all over the web researching the tools, API's and specs out there - but a few questions remain. i am a c++ contractor assigned to read and write XML documents using java. our questions: is SAX supposed to be a plug-in API for this purpose.. or, should we be using one of the Sun or IBM products? the SAX is an event-based parser - but is the Sun product tree-based? i guess what we are asking is: what is the 1) simplest XML reader/writer java product out there and 2) the most efficient? we've noticed the Sun product beats IBM in the benchmarks, but we're wondering if we need the Sun product or could we just drop SAX into our product and read/write our XML documents immediately.....????? sorry for the convoluted rambling, -mc xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 18 22:02:06 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML chaos References: Message-ID: <3741C6D7.31FB1261@locke.ccil.org> Mark Cheek wrote: > our questions: is SAX supposed to be a plug-in API for this > purpose.. or, should we be using one of the Sun or IBM products? SAX is a parser API, not a parser. Most parsers supply this API. Unless you need a tree model of the document, you can write your code around the SAX API and then plug in any parser you want, such as Sun's, IBM's, Aelfred (www.microstar.com), XP (www.jclark.com) or whatever. Some parsers such as Sun's and IBM's also provide the DOM API, which is tree-based, if that's more useful to your application. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed May 19 03:03:32 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: XML-Data Reduced (XDR) [External Data Representation] References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF541@RED-MSG-08> <3741B970.179B5696@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <374201AD.70734B1@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > "XML-Data Reduced" (XDR) refers to a trimmed and improved version of the > XML-Data schema syntax. The original XML-Data submission can be found at > http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ . Information on XML-Data Reduced > is at http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp . "The XML Schema implementation that ships with Internet Explorer 5 is based primarily upon the XML-Data Note , posted by the W3C in January 1998, and the Document Content Description note. XML Schemas in Internet Explorer 5 provide support for the subset of XML-Data that coincides directly with the functionality expressed in DCD, albeit in a slightly different XML grammar." "The XML Schema implementation provided with Internet Explorer 5 focuses on syntactic schemas, without support for inheritance or other object-oriented design features." Ah, well then. That clears things up. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco The dress code in Las Cruces New Mexico has been tightened [to] target Gothic clothing, such as dark trench coats. "It is not a witch hunt" Superintendent Jesse L. Gozales said. "It is for the safety of the kids in our schools." - Associated Press, May 16 1999 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jp at ncfocus.com Wed May 19 03:19:22 1999 From: jp at ncfocus.com (JP Morgenthal) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:08 2004 Subject: SAX2 Message-ID: David, Am I correct in believing that there are still no parser interfaces for being notified or allowed to see the actual prolog definitions of the XML Document? During the course of delivering my Java & XML Training course, I have been asked many times by attendees "Will SAX give me the DTD declarations?". It seems to me that the next version of SAX should provide this information. It seems important to those that are building more generic software to run against XML Documents. Comments??? Regards, JP ********************************************** JP Morgenthal CEO & Director of Research NC.Focus P: 516-792-0997 F: 516-792-0996 E: jp@ncfocus.com W: www.ncfocus.com ******************************************** xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From machida at vtt.co.jp Wed May 19 05:01:19 1999 From: machida at vtt.co.jp (Akihiko Machida) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: unsubscribe References: Message-ID: <37422940.D46CF4BB@vtt.co.jp> unsubscribe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at qub.com Wed May 19 06:59:04 1999 From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolksii) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: How to disable validation. Message-ID: <000e01bea1b4$a59d7ea0$85d4d6cf@g0f2n0> Hello. I have a question about DTD's. Here is the (simplified) situation. Let's consider that we have company A processing XML documents of some kind ( A-documents), validating those documents with some DTD ( let's call it A.DTD ). Company B does the same validation-based processing with their B-documents. The only difference between A-documents and B-documents is that A-documents have element that is specific to company A and B-documents have element specific to company B - the rest of elements and attributes are the same for both companies. Now our companies decided to exchange their documents. As a solution they may write XSL stylesheets, or ( maybe) use entities to remove A1 elemets and B1 elements. I see no other ways to workaround this situation and both are a bit complicated. The problem here is to hide some part of XML document from the validation process. If company B could say in B.DTD something like: And company A would add to A.DTD That will allow both companies to do whatever they like inside their elements ( A1 and B1 would become attributes, for example ) and easily exchange the documents without any ( even simple ) XSL-based ( or not XSL-based ) filtering. I'm sure there is some answer to this "how to hide some part of XML document from validation?" I'l appreciate if you'l provide me with any URL that may be related to this problem. Thank you. Rgds.Paul. paul@pault.com http://www.pault.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr Wed May 19 07:54:26 1999 From: mjkoo at kistmail.kist.re.kr (Mi-Jeong Koo) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: DTD editor using SAX(Project X) Message-ID: <37425247.2E6749FC@kistmail.kist.re.kr> Hi~ all. I'd like to make a DTD editor using SAX(SUN's Project X). Is there any class of SAX? Thank you. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From machida at vtt.co.jp Wed May 19 08:07:26 1999 From: machida at vtt.co.jp (Akihiko Machida) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: unsubscribe Message-ID: <37425504.7AFF7BDC@vtt.co.jp> unsubscribe ? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Wed May 19 09:15:37 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: How to disable validation. Message-ID: <01BEA1D7.D9269EA0@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Paul Tchistopolksii wrote: > The only difference between A-documents and > B-documents is that A-documents have > element that is specific to company A > and B-documents have element specific > to company B - the rest of elements and > attributes are the same for both companies. > > Now our companies decided to exchange > their documents. As a solution they may write > XSL stylesheets, or ( maybe) use entities > to remove A1 elemets and B1 elements. > I see no other ways to workaround this > situation and both are a bit complicated. > > The problem here is to hide some part of > XML document from the validation process. You could do write a single DTD with the following: and then have each company define their company-specific elements in company-specific DTDs, which would be included through the internal subset. This is open to abuse, though, as a valid document could contain any elements, not just the intended, company-specific elements, in the COMPANY_SPECIFIC element. However, if the documents are machine generated, this is not a problem. (By the way, EMPTY and ANY(THING) are valid only in content model definitions, not attributes.) -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Wed May 19 11:50:00 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors Message-ID: <025501bea1dc$929ef2c0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> I have raised this issue before, and somehow it didn't get very far. But I feel that a standard API for XSLT processors , in the spirit of SAX, would be very helpful. One interesting way for doing it would be to build upon the SAX2 extension mechanism, providing a standard SAX2 feature called http://xml.org/sax/features/xslt-transformation and a write only property it uses, called http://xml.org/sax/properties/xslt-stylesheet which takes an InputSource value. I like this approach since it meshes well with the SAX2 framework. Given that XSLT processor writers will need to adapt their code to SAX2 anyway, using this opportunity to get a standard API to such processors seems like a good idea. The amount of work required seems pretty small, at least for an XSLT processor which is already built on top of a SAX parser and produces SAX events as the results - these are the only ones which should be integrated into this framework, anyway. There remains the question of how to obtain a SAX2 parser supporting XSLT - say for example I have both XP and XT in my system, I'd expect XP to be the default SAX parser. However this is an open question in the current SAX2 interface for all extensions, not just for XSLT, so we can wait until it gets resolved in general. David Megginson has started writing the SAX2 documentation, listing standard features and properties (see http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/). How about adding this feature there? Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 12:26:23 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: SAX2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14146.37156.674912.714490@localhost.localdomain> JP Morgenthal writes: > Am I correct in believing that there are still no parser interfaces > for being notified or allowed to see the actual prolog definitions > of the XML Document? I apologize for the confusion. The final version of SAX2 will probably contain some (optional) interfaces for DTD information and lexical information. SAX2 is designed so that people can invent any handler types they want and register them using setProperty(); we're working on finalizing that infrastructure first, then we'll provide a couple of recommended core handler types. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arthur.rother at ovidius.com Wed May 19 12:56:50 1999 From: arthur.rother at ovidius.com (Arthur Rother) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: question: where is the colon in processing instruction names Message-ID: <4.1.19990519123944.03d10f10@bodoni.ovidius.local> Hello, In one of the XML-DEV posted messages it says, that colons are not allowed in processing instruction names. The XML parser in IE5 does not allow colons in processing names. But I could not find anything in http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml#sec-pi The question is, is it allowed, and if not, why? This is probably discussed allready, but I could not find more as the one message mentioned. Thanks, Arthur Rother xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk Wed May 19 14:02:10 1999 From: paxamr at unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (adam moore) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: Announce: xml-mol mail list In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990519123944.03d10f10@bodoni.ovidius.local> Message-ID: xml-mol mail list: scope and interests xml-mol is a mail-list for the discussion of issues concerning the implementation of XML-based biological and chemical applications and data with particular reference to sequences and structure. Specific fields of interest include (non-exhaustive list): - Parsing legacy data into XML - Document Object Model (DOM) handling of bioData - Developing open frameworks for XML-aware bio applications xml-mol mail list: FAQ (Frequently asked questions) 1. How do I (un)subscribe? To (un)subscribe to the list send an email with the text '(un)subscribe xml-mol' in the body to majordomo@ala.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk 2. Can I read old messages to this list? A full archive of the list is available at: http://ala.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/biodom/xml-mol/ 3. What biological data should I discuss here? Any of it! The list scope particularily focuses on molecules, but one of the great things about working in an emerging field is the wide variety of uses / applications that become available every day. Please let us know if you have one! 4. What programming language should I use / discuss here? There are no restrictions on discussing language specific issues, but bear in mind that expertise and interest will vary, and there are some lanaguage-specific mail-lists. Currently there are XML applications being written in (at least) perl, java, C, C++ and python. 5 Why is the FAQ so short? Because the list is so new! Additions will be made over time. Please let me know of any changes you would like made FAQ maintainer: Adam Moore Adam Moore Virtual School of Molecular Sciences School of Pharmaceutical Science, University of Nottingham http://www.vsms.nottingham.ac.uk/vsms/ Personal Page:http://www.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk/~paxamr/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 15:39:45 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: question: where is the colon in processing instruction names In-Reply-To: <4.1.19990519123944.03d10f10@bodoni.ovidius.local> References: <4.1.19990519123944.03d10f10@bodoni.ovidius.local> Message-ID: <14146.48716.615518.315963@localhost.localdomain> Arthur Rother writes: > In one of the XML-DEV posted messages it says, that colons > are not allowed in processing instruction names. Colons are not allowed in PI names *for namespace processing*; they certainly are allowed in XML 1.0. > The XML parser in IE5 does not allow colons in processing > names. If it is meant to be XML 1.0 conformant, it should allow colons when you are not performing namespace processing (though it's probably a good idea not to use them anyway). Others may correct me, but I don't think that a conformant processor is allowed to reject well-formed XML (expect, perhaps, if the processing is performing validation and the document is not valid). Namespaces cannot change this, since XML 1.0 is an independent standard. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From elharo at metalab.unc.edu Wed May 19 15:55:59 1999 From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free In-Reply-To: <37408D33.F990030@allette.com.au> References: <3.0.1.32.19990511124821.013434c0@mail.accessone.com> <37389D38.C1678675@prescod.net> <3738C39C.76789562@nsc.com> <4.1.19990513100119.00c251a0@steptwo.com.au> <373CBA59.2A7832BC@prescod.net> <373F66A1.2CEFAF63@allette.com.au> <373FC334.BFAC2EFE@prescod.net> Message-ID: At 7:42 AM +1000 5/18/99, Marcus Carr wrote: >[Cross posted to XSL and XML-Dev] > >If the major impediments to the adoption of OmniMark are cost and the fact >that >it's proprietary, this must surely change the equation for a few people. Maybe >I'm biased, but I see this as one of the big announcements of the year. > Neaar as I can tell from the Web site this is still $995 payware. I see no option of any free download of anything anywhere. What am I missing? +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Wed May 19 16:55:51 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:09 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free References: <3.0.1.32.19990511124821.013434c0@mail.accessone.com> <37389D38.C1678675@prescod.net> <3738C39C.76789562@nsc.com> <4.1.19990513100119.00c251a0@steptwo.com.au> <373CBA59.2A7832BC@prescod.net> <373F66A1.2CEFAF63@allette.com.au> <373FC334.BFAC2EFE@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3742CBC7.A8CE05D9@prescod.net> Elliotte Rusty Harold wrote: > > Neaar as I can tell from the Web site this is still $995 payware. I see no > option of any free download of anything anywhere. What am I missing? You can get it from their home page. Go to http://www.omnimark.com . Click on the "free software" link and then on "get it now." -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco "It's only a movie. People should get a life." - George Lucas (http://www.nypost.com/news/9025.htm) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 19 16:58:44 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: question: where is the colon in processing instruction names References: <4.1.19990519123944.03d10f10@bodoni.ovidius.local> Message-ID: <3742D16A.AB3F7C1E@locke.ccil.org> Arthur Rother wrote: > The question is, is [colon in PI targets] allowed, and if not, why? > This is probably discussed allready, but I could not find > more as the one message mentioned. Not allowed, because colons are allowed only in element and attribute names. There is a note near the end of XML-Namespaces explaining this. (Of course they are allowed in vanilla XML 1.0 without namespaces, but they are discouraged, unless you are experimenting with a namespace mechanism other than XML-Namespaces.) The mechanism for mapping PI targets to URIs is a notation declaration, as explained in XML-Rec. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 17:21:52 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> (I'd like to hear from as many people as possible on this issue.) For SAX2, we need to add at least four methods to the SAX 1.0 Parser interface: public void setFeature (String featureId, boolean state) throws SAXException; public boolean getFeature (String featureId) throws SAXException; public void setProperty (String propertyId, Object value) throws SAXException; public Object getProperty (String propertyId) throws SAXException; There are three ways of doing this: 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends org.xml.sax.Parser. PRO: - provides nice, two-way compatibility - easy to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers. CON: - subclassing always leads to crime (see the GOF book for copious warnings). 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. PRO: - doesn't limit options for subclassing in the future CON: - very difficult to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers (slower acceptance and implementation of SAX2) - can cause unexpected behaviour at deployment time, unless the application designer knows to catch NoSuchMethodException 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. PRO: - easy to writer adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers - fewer nasty deployment surprises CON: - will require lots of casting - conceptually ugly Please, comment, comment, comment! I'm not smart enough to figure this out myself. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Wed May 19 17:22:16 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: FW: Announcement: OmniMark is Free Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Buss, Jason A > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 9:34 AM > To: 'Elliotte Rusty Harold' > Subject: RE: Announcement: OmniMark is Free > > I believe the IDE is the $995 payware, but the source code for the > Omnimark5 processing engine itself is free. > > (ie, the command line functionality is still there. Using a GUI to build > .xom files is gonna cost you. Unless you are using for home or education) > > Now I can expand all my Omnimark4LE stuff. But it may still take me some > serious effort to need much more than 200 actions. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Elliotte Rusty Harold [SMTP:elharo@metalab.unc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 8:52 AM > To: XML-Dev Mailing list > Subject: Re: Announcement: OmniMark is Free > > At 7:42 AM +1000 5/18/99, Marcus Carr wrote: > >[Cross posted to XSL and XML-Dev] > > > >If the major impediments to the adoption of OmniMark are cost and the > fact > >that > >it's proprietary, this must surely change the equation for a few people. > Maybe > >I'm biased, but I see this as one of the big announcements of the year. > > > > Neaar as I can tell from the Web site this is still $995 payware. I see > no > option of any free download of anything anywhere. What am I missing? > > > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | > | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | > | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | > | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 17:25:47 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors In-Reply-To: <025501bea1dc$929ef2c0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> References: <025501bea1dc$929ef2c0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14146.54998.168258.57554@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > One interesting way for doing it would be to build upon the SAX2 > extension mechanism, providing a standard SAX2 feature called > http://xml.org/sax/features/xslt-transformation and a write only > property it uses, called > http://xml.org/sax/properties/xslt-stylesheet which takes an > InputSource value. I think that it's a great approach, but the feature and property probably don't belong in the core, for two reasons: 1. XSL is not yet a recommendation; and 2. there are many other specs, such as RDF, XML Linking, and XML Schemas, that could fairly claim equal treatment. That said, there is no reason at all that someone couldn't define such a feature and property outside of the SAX2 core list and let the market decide. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Viraf.Bankwalla at trw.com Wed May 19 17:26:40 1999 From: Viraf.Bankwalla at trw.com (Viraf Bankwalla) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: Need help modeling a taxonomy in XML Message-ID: Hi, I would appreciate help / direction / references in determining whether XML is appropiate, and how to go about designing / implementing a solution to the following problem. I am trying to represent a taxonomy using XML. The taxonomy is 5 levels deep and each level may have several thousand terms. Multiple views of the taxonomy will be available to the user - for example : View 1 View 2 ========= ========= L1-a L3-a +-L2-a +-L2-a +-L3-a | +-L1-a +-L2-b | +-L1-b +-L2-d View 1 above shows the prefered path to the term. View 2 shows a user selected term and it's parents. As the nodes are multi-axial the path to each of the root(s) are shown. The application also needs to be able to query the taxonony for terms. The solution is currently implemented using a relational database. How would one go about modeling this in XML and what tools are available to search / manage the taxonomy. When I initially looked at the problem it looked ideal for XML, however after having discovered that the nodes are multi-axial I'm not sure if XML or a relational database is the best solution. Any help would be useful. Thanks. - vi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 17:29:08 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 and Acceptor/Connector In-Reply-To: <3741720E.E5F06EA3@jfinity.com> References: <3741720E.E5F06EA3@jfinity.com> Message-ID: <14146.55299.616360.737473@localhost.localdomain> Gabe Beged-Dov writes: > It seems to me that all of the new functionality in SAX2 can be > described as create time negotiation between the consumer of XML > parsing services and the provider. Almost -- right now, I cannot imagine any properties being written during parse time, but certainly people may want to read them, as is the case with the following two properties: http://xml.org/sax/properties/dom-node http://xml.org/sax/properties/xml-string (For anyone coming in late, you can read preliminary SAX2 documentation at http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arkin at trendline.co.il Wed May 19 17:42:00 1999 From: arkin at trendline.co.il (Arkin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation References: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3742D92F.AFB80E65@trendline.co.il> Empty adpater class called ParserProp and an extended interface called ParserEx. The application will create a ParserProp instance by passing it a reference to Parser. The application will then try to set a feature or a property. If Parser implements ParserEx, it would work nicely. If Parser does not implement ParserEx (an old version), then ParserProp will throw an exception. Thus: ParserProp prop; prop = new ParserProp( myParser ); try { prop.setFeature( "xyz" ); } catch ( SAXException except ) { // Do something about it, or do nothing about it. } Arkin David Megginson wrote: > > (I'd like to hear from as many people as possible on this issue.) > > For SAX2, we need to add at least four methods to the SAX 1.0 Parser > interface: > > public void setFeature (String featureId, boolean state) > throws SAXException; > > public boolean getFeature (String featureId) > throws SAXException; > > public void setProperty (String propertyId, Object value) > throws SAXException; > > public Object getProperty (String propertyId) > throws SAXException; > > There are three ways of doing this: > > 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends > org.xml.sax.Parser. > > PRO: - provides nice, two-way compatibility > - easy to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers. > CON: - subclassing always leads to crime (see the GOF book for > copious warnings). > > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. > > PRO: - doesn't limit options for subclassing in the future > CON: - very difficult to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 > drivers (slower acceptance and implementation of SAX2) > - can cause unexpected behaviour at deployment time, unless > the application designer knows to catch > NoSuchMethodException > > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. > > PRO: - easy to writer adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers > - fewer nasty deployment surprises > CON: - will require lots of casting > - conceptually ugly > > Please, comment, comment, comment! I'm not smart enough to figure this > out myself. > > All the best, > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cbona18 at campus.mor.itesm.mx Wed May 19 17:44:15 1999 From: cbona18 at campus.mor.itesm.mx (Ing. Cesar Bonavides M.) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: &anytype; to RTF converter. Need help! Message-ID: Hy everyone! First of all, I'd like to thank everyone 'cause your helping comments and hints and tips. Well, I think this answer is not to out of context. I'd like to know if there is a converter from: TeX, or LaTex, or PostScript or PDF to RTF. I know there's something out there, but I don't have time to find it out. I appreciate your invaluable help. Thanx in advance. Cesar PS. Hope you understood this mexican's english! xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From arkin at trendline.co.il Wed May 19 17:53:25 1999 From: arkin at trendline.co.il (Arkin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors References: <025501bea1dc$929ef2c0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> <14146.54998.168258.57554@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3742DBEC.5633CD86@trendline.co.il> I have been requested to implement this feature in an XML library more than once, both by XSL users and for other related external documents (XSP, DCP, whatever). I think it could and should be done in a very generic manner, allowing the application to specify one or more external documents using the same PI mechanism and the parser would respond by placing them (or reporting them) through the properties. By scope these references should be one per document and always appear above the root element. Feature: http://xml.org/sax/features/xsl-transform If true the parser sould attempt to apply XSL transformation and return the results, if XSL is supported. Property: http://xml.org/sax/property/xsl-stylesheet Read and write. If set before the parser is started, will introduce the PI directive using the supplied system identifier into the document name, if no such PI already exists. When read, will use either the one supplied in the document or the one supplied in the property (whichever comes last) and return a system identifier. EntityResolver can be used to get the InputStream. In addition, I think the following could be useful: Property: http://xml.org/sax/property/document-base Read and write. Provide a URL for resolving all relative URLs appearing in the document (stylesheet, external entities, etc). Could be used to supply a fake base URL when the document is parsed from memory. Could be used to return the base URL when the document is parsed from a real URL, e.g. for the purpose of locating an external stylesheet. Arkin David Megginson wrote: > > Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > > > One interesting way for doing it would be to build upon the SAX2 > > extension mechanism, providing a standard SAX2 feature called > > http://xml.org/sax/features/xslt-transformation and a write only > > property it uses, called > > http://xml.org/sax/properties/xslt-stylesheet which takes an > > InputSource value. > > I think that it's a great approach, but the feature and property > probably don't belong in the core, for two reasons: > > 1. XSL is not yet a recommendation; and > 2. there are many other specs, such as RDF, XML Linking, and XML > Schemas, that could fairly claim equal treatment. > > That said, there is no reason at all that someone couldn't define such > a feature and property outside of the SAX2 core list and let the > market decide. > > All the best, > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Wed May 19 18:26:09 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990519092328.009abab0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 11:20 AM 5/19/99 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. > > PRO: - doesn't limit options for subclassing in the future > CON: - very difficult to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 > drivers (slower acceptance and implementation of SAX2) > - can cause unexpected behaviour at deployment time, unless > the application designer knows to catch > NoSuchMethodException Still, this seems the right thing to do. SAX has been successful, but of all its eventual users, 95% haven't started or even heard of it yet. Face the legacy-code issue and deal with it and just make SAX as good as possible for the long haul. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srnm at yahoo.com Wed May 19 18:28:50 1999 From: srnm at yahoo.com (Steven Marcus) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: <19990519163047.29359.rocketmail@send205.yahoomail.com> Hello, How about using a "marker" interface? A marker interface defines no methods. Marker interfaces allow you to check for new functionality and use the new functionality without casting. Java uses marker interfaces to signal the following capabilities: Cloneable, Serializable et al. So for SAX2: 1) add the new APIs to the org.xml.sax.Parser class 2) create a new empty interface possibly called Parser2, or better SAX2 3) SAX2 compliant-parsers will implement the new marker interface as well as all the methods in org.xml.sax.Parser If you care to use the new SAX2 methods and are not sure that the parser implements them, just check for the marker interface in your code. Something like if (!(parser instanceof SAX2)) throw new RuntimeException("need a SAX2-compliant parser"); // otherwise use the parser as normal Catching NoSuchMethodExceptions is very "ugly" (at least in Java) and I suggest that any solution that requires this is lacking ... Thanks! Steven Marcus --- David Megginson wrote: > (I'd like to hear from as many people as possible on this > issue.) > > For SAX2, we need to add at least four methods to the SAX 1.0 > Parser > interface: > > public void setFeature (String featureId, boolean state) > throws SAXException; > > public boolean getFeature (String featureId) > throws SAXException; > > public void setProperty (String propertyId, Object value) > throws SAXException; > > public Object getProperty (String propertyId) > throws SAXException; > > There are three ways of doing this: > > 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends > org.xml.sax.Parser. > > PRO: - provides nice, two-way compatibility > - easy to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers. > CON: - subclassing always leads to crime (see the GOF book > for > copious warnings). > > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require > applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in > case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. > > PRO: - doesn't limit options for subclassing in the future > CON: - very difficult to write adapters for existing SAX > 1.0 > drivers (slower acceptance and implementation of > SAX2) > - can cause unexpected behaviour at deployment time, > unless > the application designer knows to catch > NoSuchMethodException > > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or > something > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both > interfaces. > > PRO: - easy to writer adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers > - fewer nasty deployment surprises > CON: - will require lots of casting > - conceptually ugly > > Please, comment, comment, comment! I'm not smart enough to > figure this > out myself. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > _____________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Free instant messaging and more at http://messenger.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed May 19 18:32:21 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE91@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> I'd go for an amalgam of (1) and (3): define a new interface Parser2 that is forwards-compatible from Parser but *doesn't* extend it. Give the supplier the choice of implementing either or both interfaces (in the same or different classes). The user decides which interface he's going to use and selects a product that supplies it. This makes it difficult to write a client application that will work directly with either interface, but the availability of adapters (in both directions) should mean this isn't a problem. The fact that Parser2 doesn't extend Parser will ensure that the old Parser interface eventually falls into disuse. Mike Kay > > 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends > org.xml.sax.Parser. > > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed May 19 18:37:48 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: Err ... I might be losing my sanity here, but I _thought_ I'd posted a description of a technique that allows us to have the best of all worlds (forwards and backwards compatibility with new methods added to Parser, and no ugly casting or catching of NoSuchMethodErrors) in my last contribution to the 'Parser2 considered harmful' thread, http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9905/0425.html Didn't it propagate? Didn't it make sense? I'd be happy to elaborate if it wasn't all that clear. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 19 20:51:38 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: Namespace separators Message-ID: <37430808.9517BF11@locke.ccil.org> I foresee problems with the SAX2 namespace feature. In particular, defaulting to a null separator means that some universal names become confusible. Thus url="http://me.net/foobar" name="scope" url="http://me.net/foobars" name="cope" look the same. In addition, allowing users to specify random separators will lead to trouble, because people will not be aware of which separators are safe and which are not. The safe separators (those which cannot appear in an XML name or in an URI) are space, <, >, #, ", {, }, |, \, ^, ~, [, ], and `. Also various non-ASCII characters (no non-ASCII character can appear as such in an URI). If we *must* support multiple namespace characters, then we should make the property read-only, leaving the choice up to parser writers rather than application programmers. Parser writers have some chance of being aware of the issue. (The DOM folks are leaning toward "{URL}name" format, BTW, although I am attempting to persuade them that a leading character is not needed.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Wed May 19 22:11:45 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:10 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation In-Reply-To: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000d01bea234$00bf78e0$6535fea9@w21tp> > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. > > PRO: - doesn't limit options for subclassing in the future > CON: - very difficult to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 > drivers (slower acceptance and implementation of SAX2) > - can cause unexpected behaviour at deployment time, unless > the application designer knows to catch > NoSuchMethodException David, I prefer #2 combined with a helper class to ease some of the pain. If the client supports SAX2 only, then they can invoke Parser directly. If the client supports both SAX and SAX2, then they can invoke the static helper methods in the helper class which handles things like NoSuchMethodException. They should be passing an instance of the parser to the static helper methods. Comment? Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed May 19 22:24:08 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: A quick follow up to my last post ... I did a sanity check on the mechanism I descibed earlier and it looks as though there's a problem. It works perfectly as described for Sun JDK1.2.1 (with the exception that the error to catch is AbstractMethodError rather than NoSuchMethodError). Sadly it fails for Sun JDK 1.1.8 (the only other I've got handy at the mo'). The problem is that the older JDK won't allow the instantiation of a class which implements an older version an interface when a newer version of that interface is present on the classpath: new throws an IncompatibleClassChangeError (as a result of a failure during classloading I presume). By comparison JDK1.2.1 allows the instantiation, and throws AbstractMethodErrors if methods from the newer interface are called on the old class. The upshot is that with JDK1.1.8 you wouldn't be able to create an instance of a SAX1 parser in the presence of the SAX2 interfaces, which means that my adapter approach can't get off the ground. As far as I can see JDK1.2.1 is following the JLS here, and JDK1.1.8 (and possibly earlier) is in error. The fact that it's JDK1.1.Xs fault doesn't help all that much tho'. I'll report it as a bug and see what feedback I get from Sun. If anyone's want's a peek at the code for the test cases to make sure I'm not missing something obvious, please let me know. Assuming this is a genuine problem I have to pick one of Davids options. I'd have to go along with Tim and back option (2). Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 19 22:35:08 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation References: <000d01bea234$00bf78e0$6535fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <37432008.17CEC5@locke.ccil.org> Don Park wrote: > If the client supports SAX2 only, then they can invoke Parser directly. > If the client supports both SAX and SAX2, then they can invoke the static > helper methods in the helper class which handles things like > NoSuchMethodException. > > They should be passing an instance of the parser to the static helper > methods. By using a dynamic helper class, the rest of the application doesn't need to know or care if this is a SAX2 or SAX1 parser. See Miles's and my messages on the subject. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 23:08:50 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespace separators In-Reply-To: <37430808.9517BF11@locke.ccil.org> References: <37430808.9517BF11@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14147.10109.851665.626283@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > I foresee problems with the SAX2 namespace feature. In particular, > defaulting to a null separator means that some universal names > become confusible. Thus > > url="http://me.net/foobar" name="scope" > url="http://me.net/foobars" name="cope" Agreed. I arbitrarily chose to default to the null separator for two reasons: 1. because RDF does it, and it's the only Recommendation that has anything to say about the specifics of concatenation; and 2. to stay out of any religious wars against which character should be used as the separator. The RDF concatenation does lead to nasty problems, as John suggests. I could live with [space], if everyone promises not to flame me (it's one character that's virtually guaranteed not to be allowed in XML names in any future version of the spec). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed May 19 23:11:17 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation References: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37432898.A48ED78A@pacbell.net> David Megginson wrote: > > 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends > org.xml.sax.Parser. > > PRO: - provides nice, two-way compatibility > - easy to write adapters for existing SAX 1.0 drivers. > CON: - subclassing always leads to crime (see the GOF book for > copious warnings). Actually, strike that "con" -- this isn't subclassing, it's instead "subtyping", since Parser is an interface not a class. Inheriting interfaces can't cause the crimes you'd get by relying on parent class implementation artifacts! My preference is clearly for #1 ... it's the standard way to evolve existing interfaces in Java and most other interface oriented frameworks. > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. As Miles recently noted, this depends on everyone upgrading to conform to the Java 2 standard. (I recall the internal discussions at the time. This was a conscious change in behavior; JDK 1.1 and 1.0 are now viewed as being in error.) While desirable, it's not a thing I see happening very quickly ... particularly in embedded systems which conform to the JDK 1.1 behavior!! The motivation for changing this depended on ease of evolution in the specific case where interface definers have strong control over all implementations of the interface ... which clearly is not the case with SAX!! (Note that this change removes one of the incentives to use abstract base classes inappropriately!) > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. The primary difference between this and #1 is that this defines another interface, and I don't see a benefit to that. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 19 23:14:11 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation In-Reply-To: <37432898.A48ED78A@pacbell.net> References: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> <37432898.A48ED78A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <14147.10478.956663.81236@localhost.localdomain> David Brownell writes: > Inheriting interfaces can't cause the crimes you'd get by relying > on parent class implementation artifacts! No, but it can still lead to the crime of obfuscation. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Wed May 19 23:20:38 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free Message-ID: The download for the IDE includes the source code for Omnimark5. I believe you just elect not to install the IDE using the Web Object Packager thingy.... Unfortunately, something is up with Omnimark's server (possibly low bandwidth) but my downloads from that server are running less then 1K over a T1 frame. The darn thing either locks up and times out, or corrupts the file when it downloads. Hopefully next week I will be able to download it. -Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: Elliotte Rusty Harold [SMTP:elharo@metalab.unc.edu] > Sent: Wednesday, May 19, 1999 11:33 AM > To: Buss, Jason A > Subject: RE: Announcement: OmniMark is Free > > >I believe the IDE is the $995 payware, but the source code for the > Omnimark5 > >processing engine itself is free. > > > > They say the source code is free, but where is it? What's the URL? I can't > find it and no URL is given in the press release. If it's on their web > site > somewhere it's pretty well hidden. It looks like vaporware to me. > > > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer | > +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+ > | Java I/O (O'Reilly & Associates, 1999) | > | http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/books/javaio/ | > | http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=1565924851/cafeaulaitA/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > | Read Cafe au Lait for Java News: http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ | > | Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/ | > +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+ > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed May 19 23:34:11 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespace separators Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF563@RED-MSG-08> RDF concatenates a namespace's URI plus a local name to form a new URI by simple concatenation, with no intervening separator, true enough, but RDF also imposes a rule that all namespace URIs must end in "/" so that no ambiguity is possible. I think there are two lessons to take from this: 1. It is desirable, perhaps essential for RDF compatibility, that the composition of a namespace's URI plus a local name itself be a URI or URI reference. 2. Careful choice of rules for either naming namespaces or for picking separator characters allows us to avoid ambiguity. Proposals to never have a separator either lead to ambiguity or to imposing restrictions on namespaces. These, therefore, either fail the ambiguity test or fail in the face of many namespace URIs that are legal per the namespaces spec. That is not good. I have seen the following rule proposed, and it appears both robust and compatible with RDF: To compose a namespace's URI plus a local name into a new string that is a URI reference, concatenate the strings directly if the URI ends in "/" or "?", else concatenate the strings but separate them with a "#". xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From BFersch at aol.com Wed May 19 23:52:00 1999 From: BFersch at aol.com (BFersch@aol.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free Message-ID: jason: Glad to know that it is not just me that is unable to download the software. Question: why announce it if they can't handle the traffic? Bill xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Thu May 20 00:05:41 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: none In-Reply-To: <87256774.0064FC08.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> References: <87256774.0064FC08.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Message-ID: * roddey@us.ibm.com | | The original content model is pretty unambiguous. If you get one to | two As, then D and E are optional. If you get 3 to 5 As, then D and | E are not. But in the DFA, that would be pretty ambiguous, wouldn't | it? You're quite right, my suggested transformation could inject ambiguity into a content model that did not originally have it, and this does make it appear much less attractive. I haven't had time to think it through, but it might be possible to contrive a solution that in the case of merged foo{m,n} groups would choose different exits depending on the actual number of foos. Or it may be too difficult to actually be much of a gain. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Thu May 20 01:19:57 1999 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: &anytype; to RTF converter. Need help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4.1.19990520091624.00bf31c0@mail.steptwo.com.au> At 01:40 20/05/1999 , Ing. Cesar Bonavides M. wrote: | Hy everyone! | | First of all, I'd like to thank everyone 'cause your helping comments and | hints and tips. | | Well, I think this answer is not to out of context. | | I'd like to know if there is a converter from: | | TeX, or LaTex, or PostScript or PDF to RTF. | | I know there's something out there, but I don't have time to find it out. | | I appreciate your invaluable help. | | Thanx in advance. | | Cesar Cesar, You've picked some difficult formats to convert. TeX and LaTex should be convertable using Perl or Omnimark. Not too hard, but a bit of work. Postscript and PDF are very, very hard formats to work with, and I don't know of any easy way of dealing with them. Cheers, James ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 20 02:54:27 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2: Namespace separators In-Reply-To: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF563@RED-MSG-08> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF563@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <14147.23196.678787.820378@localhost.localdomain> Andrew Layman writes: > RDF concatenates a namespace's URI plus a local name to form a new > URI by simple concatenation, with no intervening separator, true > enough, but RDF also imposes a rule that all namespace URIs must > end in "/" so that no ambiguity is possible. I cannot find any such constraint in the REC, but I might have missed it; in any case, the Namespace URI for RDF itself, "http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#", does not follow that rule. > I have seen the following rule proposed, and it appears both robust > and compatible with RDF: > > To compose a namespace's URI plus a local name into a new string > that is a URI reference, concatenate the strings directly if the > URI ends in "/" or "?", else concatenate the strings but separate > them with a "#". That's an interesting suggestion, but I don't think that it's compatible with the Namespaces REC. As far as I understand Namespaces in XML, and have (potentially) distinct element names, and it would be wrong for a generic processor to lose the distinction (though an application might choose to do so). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From begeddov at jfinity.com Thu May 20 03:01:33 1999 From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation References: <14146.54445.466530.585391@localhost.localdomain> <37432898.A48ED78A@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <37434F39.8BC2D38B@jfinity.com> David Brownell wrote: > > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something > > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. > > The primary difference between this and #1 is that this defines another > interface, and I don't see a benefit to that. A separate interface for create time negotiation of steady state capabilities provides both API and implementation efficiency. Again, I would refer you to Doug Schmidts excellent coverage of this design pattern (albiet in a different domain, i.e. network transports). This can also be thought of as a smart factory that actually does capability matching as opposed to just providing a trivial implementation indirection. The idea that you can do this by first creating the default parser and then negotiating thru its interface, and then under the covers creating a different parser that matches the agreed capabilities just doesn't seem that appealing. Cordially from Corvallis, Gabe Beged-Dov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From niko at cmsplatform.com Thu May 20 03:22:32 1999 From: niko at cmsplatform.com (Nik O) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: &anytype; to RTF converter. Need help! Message-ID: <015001bea25e$cc643f60$1a5e360a@tetondata.com> A good source for TeX/LaTeX tools and info is http://www.tug.org. Select the "CTAN" link, then use the "Search the Catalogue For a Keyword" feature, searching for "RTF". You'll find several TeX-to-RTF tools listed. The direct URL is: http://tug.ctan.org/cgi-bin/cataloguesearch.pl?preferredCTAN=ctan.tug.org%2F tex-archive&CATSTRING=RTF. And Cesar, mi amigo, your English is sooo much better than mi Espanol (yes, i know it's mis-spelled, but i'm sending plain-text). So, no worries, eh? -Nik O, Content Mgmt Solutions, Jackson, Wyo. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mrc at allette.com.au Thu May 20 04:14:28 1999 From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: &anytype; to RTF converter. Need help! References: <4.1.19990520091624.00bf31c0@mail.steptwo.com.au> Message-ID: <37436C30.8E8E67A1@allette.com.au> Cesar wrote: > I'd like to know if there is a converter from: > TeX, or LaTex, or PostScript or PDF to RTF. > I know there's something out there, but I don't have time to find it out. I've had some luck using something called la2mif, that converts TeX to Maker Interchange Format that can be read into FrameMaker and saved to RTF. It did a surprisingly good job on equations, though I'm not sure how much would be retained during the conversion to RTF. For details, try http://www.mekon.co.uk. With small documents (on one page), you can Select all --> copy PDF data from Acrobat and paste it into FrameMaker. Again, it's a kludge and you may have problems with character sets, but it will at least get the data into a textual format. Please don't judge me based on these methods - I feel cheap and dirty as it is... -- Regards, Marcus Carr email: mrc@allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ Allette Systems (Australia) www: http://www.allette.com.au ___________________________________________________________________ "Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler." - Einstein xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Thu May 20 06:09:17 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:11 2004 Subject: how to save dom Message-ID: hi , i want to know how to save a dom in memory to disk using IBMParser for java thanks in advance Balaji Ranjan The ability to learn an ability from scratch is the ability u need to suceed. --Anonymous xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Thu May 20 10:39:42 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors Message-ID: <038101bea29b$eaec5520$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> David Megginson wrote: >Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > > > One interesting way for doing it would be to build upon the SAX2 > > extension mechanism, providing a standard SAX2 feature called > > http://xml.org/sax/features/xslt-transformation and a write only > > property it uses, called > > http://xml.org/sax/properties/xslt-stylesheet which takes an > > InputSource value. > >I think that it's a great approach, but the feature and property >probably don't belong in the core, for two reasons: That depends on what you mean by "belonging in the core". Certainly a SAX processor isn't required to implement the feature. >1. XSL is not yet a recommendation; and It will be, soon, or so we hope; let's assume for the sake of discussion its August and a final draft is out. >2. there are many other specs, such as RDF, XML Linking, and XML > Schemas, that could fairly claim equal treatment. I perfectly agree that the same problem exists for all relevant W3C recommendations. IMVHO, it is wrong to specify such features using http://my.own.company/... URIs. It would be very much in the spirit of SAX to specify them under http://xml.org/... instead. That is, I feel that _all_ features necessary for implementing XML standards (be they from the W3C or from anywhere else) do "belong in the core". How about the following solution: Reserve the http://xml.org/sax/features/w3.org/ and http://xml.org/sax/properties/w3.org/ base URIs for specifying features and properties for implementing features and properties for implementing W3C XML recommendations. These prefixes would be followed by the internal part of the URI the W3C uses the recommendation - for example, "XSL/Transform/1.0" - and then followed by a sub-feature of a property name, if necessary. For XSL, we'd get http://xml.org/sax/features/w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 and http://xml.org/sax/properties/w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0/stylesheet. Similar features and properties would be defined for RDF, XLink, XSchema, etc. If in the future some other organization - "std.makers.org" - contributes relevant standards, we'll define http://xml.org/sax/features/org.makers.std/..., etc. This way "standard" features would have "standard" names. >That said, there is no reason at all that someone couldn't define such >a feature and property outside of the SAX2 core list and let the >market decide. I can't see "someone" other then w3.org or xml.org being able to pull this off. For example, I'm perfectly willing to contribute the URIs http://com.publishare/sax/features/xsl-transformation/1.0 and http://com.publishare/sax/features/xsl-transformation/1.0/stylesheet for specifying XSL transformations and specifying an InputSource for loading the stylesheet. What's the chance that implementers will wrap their XSL processor this way? Consider that "http://publishare.com" is a URI controlled by my company, and therefore refers to a particular product ("PubliShare", not released yet) which happens to use XSL. We'd certainly enjoy the resulting publicity within the XML community, but the chances that Microsoft (or IBM, or Sun, or any other company for that matter) will provide its XSL processor using these URIs is pretty slim. If, on the other hand, we (XML developers) accept SAX2 and within it a way to specify all standard XML recommendations, under a neutral name such as "xml.org", there's a pretty good chance that implementers will bother complying. Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu May 20 11:48:23 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >One possible solution would be to define a new URL protocol that >builds on HTTP URLs -- not as fancy as URNs, but they would build on >something that exists and is well understood: > > hname://www.megginson.com/ns/ I suggested this to TimBL at WWW8 but he didn't buy it. My argument went something like this: 1. Namespace URIs don't have to point to anything retrievable, they are just unique identifiers 2. Some URI schemes might not be web-retrievable (eg "isbn:1-23456-789-0") 3. Some URI schemes *are* web-retrievable (eg http://www.megginson.com/ns/) 4. So namespaces URIs *can* point to something, though, such as a human-readable description of the namespace, if they use a URI scheme that is web-retrievable. 5. If this is done, how does one distinguish referencing the namespace from referencing the file describing the namespace 6. My suggestion: come up with a new URI scheme that has the same scheme-specific syntax as an http URI but that is only intended as a unique identifier. TimBL suggested there wasn't a distinction to be made (as did Rohit Khare who cited Roy Fielding's PhD thesis). I'm still not convinced. Comments? James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 20 12:31:50 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors In-Reply-To: <038101bea29b$eaec5520$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> References: <038101bea29b$eaec5520$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14147.58249.513922.226496@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > I perfectly agree that the same problem exists for all relevant W3C > recommendations. IMVHO, it is wrong to specify such features using > http://my.own.company/... URIs. It would be very much in the spirit > of SAX to specify them under http://xml.org/... instead. The trouble is that we've created a centralized registry bottleneck -- a single person has to approve every new feature and property name to avoid name collision. Except for a few core SAX2 features and properties (and there may already be too many), I think that there are great advantages to letting the market decide what to use, and then (slowly) migrating feature names into the core if there's great enough demand. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Thu May 20 13:19:49 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: David Brownell wrote, > David Megginson wrote, > > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and > > require applications to catch NoSuchMethodException > > when using the new methods, in case they're > > concerned about what version they're dealing with. > > As Miles recently noted, this depends on everyone > upgrading to conform to the Java 2 standard. Actually, no it doesn't. If everyone upgraded to Java 2 then by adopting my proposed mechanism we'd have a flawless backwards and forwards compatible migration path. Given that the Java 2 requirement isn't acceptable, then option (2) depends on us being willing to put up with a (hopefully short) migration period during which there will be interoperability problems with combinations of SAX2 clients and SAX1 parsers. I think that's a price worth paying, given that SAX is still quite a young API ... we should get it right _now_ while there's still time. And getting it right means making sure that the API is as simple and comprehensible as possible, which is what option (2) offers. The getProperty() mechanism should ensure that this problem is much less likely to come up again soon. I'm pretty sure that this is what Tim meant. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Thu May 20 15:36:38 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors Message-ID: <01d501bea2c4$f6142e40$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> David Megginson wrote: >I wrote: > > I perfectly agree that the same problem exists for all relevant W3C > > recommendations. IMVHO, it is wrong to specify such features using > > http://my.own.company/... URIs. It would be very much in the spirit > > of SAX to specify them under http://xml.org/... instead. > >The trouble is that we've created a centralized registry bottleneck -- >a single person has to approve every new feature and property name to >avoid name collision. And that's what we wanted to avoid in the first place... Point taken. But it seems inevitable for the particular case of W3C standard features. >Except for a few core SAX2 features and properties (and there may >already be too many), I think that there are great advantages to >letting the market decide what to use, and then (slowly) migrating >feature names into the core if there's great enough demand. I agree with this as far as "new" features are concerned, since whoever introduces the new feature presumably also specifies the feature and property names. Not to mention that being a "new" feature, nobody would be forced to use it. It makes for a wonderful way for the industry to evolve SAX and XML, instead of standard organizations. That said... W3C features are different in two important respects. First, these are features one _must_ use to comply with "official standards". There's much less of a "market decision" whether to use them or not. Second, the people defining the standards did not bother to specify matching SAX2 features and properties. And yet, we need a universal name for each such feature. The solution might be to lobby the W3C to provide these names. Can anyone from the W3C comment on the likelihood of this? Assuming that it won't happen, "we" will have no choice but to appoint someone to act as a proxy to the W3C for the purpose of defining these names - with an emphasis on "one". This "one" should be acceptable to most developers, otherwise he'll be ignored. For better or worse, our only candidate at the moment is whoever controls "xml.org". Does anyone have an alternative? BTW, I checked and there's an registered "xsl.org" URI, maybe they'd like to do this instead? If we don't do this, then what should a SAX2 parser implementer wishing to provide a W3C feature do, exactly? Invent his own name and properties for it? That would mean that switching SAX2 parser implementations would become much harder then switching SAX parser implementations. "You are in a maze of standard W3C SAX2 features, all different" :-) That wasn't the idea. I appreciate the goal of keeping the SAX2 "core" small, though I'm still not clear what distinguishes features in the "core" - is it the fact they are specified using the "xml.org" URI? A parser may still choose not to implement them, for example. If the idea is that "if you implement this _standard_ feature, this is the way you must do it so others will be able to use it", then W3C features do belong in this set. If this set is large that's because XML complex, which isn't something SAX can solve. Let us just be glad we aren't dealing with SGML :-) At any rate, if you still feel uncomfortable with the W3C features, how about packaging them in a separate group - a "W3C" feature set, say, which would be independent of the "core" feature set, but would still be under the control of xml.org? That would mesh well with the naming scheme I proposed - that is, "core" features would be under "xml.org/features", but "W3C" features would be under "xml.org/features/w3.org". I'd be interested with what XSLT processor implementers have to say on this. Would you consider packaging the processor as a SAX2 parser? If so, what feature names would you use or would like to use? Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 20 16:34:06 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors In-Reply-To: <01d501bea2c4$f6142e40$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> References: <01d501bea2c4$f6142e40$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14148.7178.458075.936170@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > W3C features are different in two important respects. First, these > are features one _must_ use to comply with "official standards". Actually, that's not the case. W3C standards may be interdependent, but they are not a package deal -- for example, I can use XML with a format other than RDF for exchanging metadata (and in the future, RDF may use serialization formats other than XML). I can use Perl, Java, Python, DSSSL, or or what-have-you to transform or render XML documents without becoming in any way non-conformant. I can look at XML documents through any API (though SAX and the DOM are good for general-purpose work), and I can set up linking any way I want. I don't think that it was ever the W3C's intention to say that XSLT is the only way that people should transform XML documents; if so, I strongly object. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 20 16:36:38 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: &anytype; to RTF converter. Need help! Message-ID: <009b01bea2c5$ed5b8e50$47f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Ing. Cesar Bonavides M. >I'd like to know if there is a converter from: > >TeX, or LaTex, or PostScript or PDF to RTF. > >I know there's something out there, but I don't have time to find it out. To go from PDF to RTF through you can use * Magellen to go from PDF to HTML * Dave Ragget's tidy to go from HTML to XHTML * then write a little OmniMark or Perl or Python script to go from XHTML to RTF All these tools are free. Do not ask me for references. Unfortunately, you may have to locate and learn 3 tools and 4 languages along the way. Magellen does not give you text in lines: just words with absolute XY coordinates. So you can index the words, but you cannot really edit them. If the pages are really simple that you can try to figure out lines in some text processing language. You may need to try different revisions of the application that generated the code in order to find the one that puts out the best PDF. More realistically, you could try to find a Word Processing package that accepts HTML and understands absolute positioning attributes: I doubt if Word does but perhaps FrameMaker might. Another possibility is to divide your postscript into single pages, and then use Adobe Illustrator (or is it FreeHand that can read in HTML): it is remotely possible that Illustrator (or is it FreeHand) can save as RTF. Yet another possibility that should not be ignored is to keep the postscript files, but use Magellen to extract a good word index for that page (Xeros InXight have a product for this too) , and perhaps use a scanner to get the text into lines if people need text. Then you make some metadata for each document (Dublin Core). This gives you: * formatted pages * indexed data * unformatted text for people who want to extract parts of the data into other documents * metadata for finding aids. That is not nearly as good as an XML document, but might give people a lot of what they need. If you need to put it into RTF, import as text, get a human to mark it up, and export as RTF. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Thu May 20 16:41:53 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: Announcement: OmniMark is Free Message-ID: <00ae01bea2c6$e191b6c0$47f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: BFersch@aol.com >jason: > Glad to know that it is not just me that is unable to download the >software. Question: why announce it if they can't handle the traffic? Why look a gift horse in the mouth? It is great news for the academic sector. At our site we have several OmniMark scripts for free: FAQ indexing and converters (I am working on DTD-to-draftXSchema converter at the moment for example.) It has been a pain with OmniMark Light (the previous freebie) because it had program size limitations, so we had to pipe through extra stages. http://www.ascc.net/xml/ Rick Jelliffe (Note, despite the Allette email address, I don't work for them or OmniMark, & I don't even live in the same hemisphere. However, I heartily recommend OmniMark.) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From francis at redrice.com Thu May 20 18:13:12 1999 From: francis at redrice.com (francis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: a schema validator-generator References: Message-ID: <3744347F.BC806DD8@redrice.com> Hello, Inspired by Rick Jellife's note on using XSL to schema-validate XML documents, I have written a note on using XSL to generate such XSL schema validators directly from a schema, illustrated by a minimal example that can work with the IE5 parser. I've also indulged in some speculations about future uses of this approach, together with links to people already working in these directions. The note is at http://www.redrice.com/ci/generatingXslValidators.html, all comments welcome! Francis. -- Francis Norton. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mr_xyz at dds.nl Thu May 20 18:20:54 1999 From: mr_xyz at dds.nl (***Marco Kleefman***) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: questions concerning RDF/DOM/XML Schema Message-ID: <199905201620.SAA27197@mailhost.hanze.nl> Hello XML-experts, I would like to ask some questions. I hope somebody can find the time to answer it for me. I am writing a thesis about XML and related components like RDF, DOM and XML Schema. Statement1: XML Schema is a replacement for DTD's. It is possible to describe the physical structure of the information-elements (just like DTD's), but XML Schema goes further. It also adds the possibility for expressing datatypes. DTD's have no possibility to describe the logical structure of the information-elements. (Describing logical structure of a document is the same as describing the semantic structure of a document.) Q1: Is statement1 correct? Q2: Does XML Schema has the possibility to describe the logical structure of a document? Statement2: The DOM is an api. It represents an XML-document in a tree-like structure. This 'tree' is regarded as an object with several objects inside it, representing each information-element. The DOM can only access/manipulate/delete the physical structure of the information-elements. The DOM knows nothing about the logical/semantic structure of the information-elements? Q3: Is statement2 correct? Statement3: RDF is a model of metadata(=data about the logical/semantic structure). An RDF-Schema is used to describe the logical/semantic structure for a particular document, according to the rules of the RDF data model. RDF has nothing to do with describing the physical structure of a document. Q4: Is statement3 correct? Q5: If XML Schema has the possibility to describe the logical structure of a document (see Q2), then what is the difference betweeen describing the logical structure in RDF-Schema or XML Schema? Q5: When you know everything about the physical structure of a document, you also know already a great deal about the logical structure of a document. Is this correct? My thesis has nothing to do with the technical aspects of XML and related components. I am only interested conceptual frameworks behind the different components. Thanks in advance, Marco Kleefman The Netherlands xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robert.maher at threadneedle.co.uk Thu May 20 18:29:26 1999 From: robert.maher at threadneedle.co.uk (Robert Maher) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: DTD's Message-ID: <01BEA2E5.CCB420C0.robert.maher@threadneedle.co.uk> Can anyone tell me how to 'register' DTD's where do you save them to so that when you write <... SYSTEM "blah.dtd"> in your xml file it recognises it? Thanks xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 20 19:00:25 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: DTD's In-Reply-To: <01BEA2E5.CCB420C0.robert.maher@threadneedle.co.uk> References: <01BEA2E5.CCB420C0.robert.maher@threadneedle.co.uk> Message-ID: <14148.16093.187944.743288@localhost.localdomain> Robert Maher writes: > Can anyone tell me how to 'register' DTD's > where do you save them to so that when you write > <... SYSTEM "blah.dtd"> in your xml file it recognises it? In XML, the system identifier is a URI. If blah.dtd is in the same directory as the top-level document entity (the XML file, in normal talk), then the parser will probably find it. In many cases, people use absolute URIs like http://www.foo.com/dtds/blah.dtd So that the DTD can always be found from any machine, though that might force a lot of HTTP GETs, depending on your redirection and caching mechanisms. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Thu May 20 19:15:20 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: questions concerning RDF/DOM/XML Schema References: <199905201620.SAA27197@mailhost.hanze.nl> Message-ID: <374442D0.800047B6@locke.ccil.org> ***Marco Kleefman*** wrote: > Q1: Is statement1 [XML Schema] correct? XML Schema is in its first public working draft, and no one can say for sure how it will come out. In particular, there may be a separation between "lexical" and "syntactic" concerns which both DTDs and the current version of XML Schemas intermingle. > Q2: Does XML Schema has the possibility to describe the logical structure of > a document? Perhaps. This question is very general. > Q3: Is statement2 [DOM] correct? Yes. > Q4: Is statement3 [RDF Schemas] correct? RDF is a model of general metadata, not just structural metadata. It can describe such non-structural questions as author, date of creation, purpose, ... and can apply to non-XML-documents such as photographs, printed books, records in conventional databases, persons, houses, .... > Q5: If XML Schema has the possibility to describe the logical structure of a > document (see Q2), then what is the difference betweeen describing the > logical structure in RDF-Schema or XML Schema? RDF provides property-value pairs about arbitrary resources. RDF Schemas constrain which pairs can apply to which resources. XML Schemas describe structural constraints on XML documents. An XML schema might (if everything were done to that purpose) be construed as a set of RDF statements. An XML schema cannot reasonably be an RDF schema: the universe of discourse is different. > Q5: When you know everything about the physical structure of a document, you > also know already a great deal about the logical structure of a document. Is > this correct? Maybe, maybe not. All (valid) HTML documents share the same known DTD, but may have no semantics in common whatever except a common rendering model. It was for this very purpose that XML was devised. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Thu May 20 19:20:03 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: DTD's In-Reply-To: <01BEA2E5.CCB420C0.robert.maher@threadneedle.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990520131934.009d9720@nexus.polaris.net> At 05:25 PM 05/20/1999 +0100, Robert Maher wrote: >Can anyone tell me how to 'register' DTD's >where do you save them to so that when you write ><... SYSTEM "blah.dtd"> in your xml file it recognises it? No "registration" required. The SystemID is just a URI (think "URL"), just like you'd use in an HTML anchor tag's href attribute. As with any other URI, the location can be absolute (including the http://whatever.domain.com/path/ portion as well as the specific file name, like blah.dtd in your case) or relative (omitting any portions of the URI that are identical to the URI of the document referring to the DTD). So if you use plain old blah.dtd, as above, you're saying "find the file blah.dtd in the same location (= folder, directory, whatever) as this document itself." HTH. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andyclar at us.ibm.com Thu May 20 20:24:00 1999 From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: SAX2 RFD: Inheritance vs. Modification vs. Amalgamation Message-ID: <87256777.0064F133.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com> David Megginson wrote: > 1. Create a new interface, org.xml.sax.Parser2, that extends > org.xml.sax.Parser. > [...] > 2. Add the methods to org.xml.sax.Parser, and require applications to > catch NoSuchMethodException when using the new methods, in case > they're concerned about what version they're dealing with. > [...] > 3. Create a separate interface org.xml.sax.ParserProps (or something > like that), and require SAX2 drivers to implement both interfaces. > [...] How about option 4... 4. Leave SAX 1.0 the way it is and place the new interfaces in new packages with the same names. PRO: Allows the members of xml-dev to design the new classes and interfaces without being hindered by subclassing/subtyping considerations. CON: Two separate (and similar in their base functionality) set of classes and interfaces. I wrote to the list awhile ago about an idea to "re-factor" the existing SAX classes and interfaces to make them more generically useful. There was little response from the group. After getting a response from David Brownell asking "Why do this?" and talking to Lars M. at the XML Europe show, I got the impression that there was no interest because noone understand what I was proposing. So I'm back again to try to spark some interest in the idea. The idea of re-factoring the API set comes from the work that I've done on the IBM XML4J parser. Supporting the industry standards meant that we included SAX 1.0 support as well as DOM 1.0. The SAX community did it right and included interfaces for parsing, error handling, entity resolution, etc. The DOM community has no such concept, so parser implementors either a) have to make their own proprietary way of loading documents and performing entity resolution (among other things); or b) use the SAX classes. Most parser implementations, including XML4J, use SAX 1.0 for the features lacking in DOM (and other standards). As a parser implementation, you don't want to publish a set of streaming APIs for a parser instance that is *not* based on streaming callbacks (startElement, etc). BUT... you *do* want to have a generic error handling facility, entity resolution, and ability to at least initiate a parse. For an example, look at the Parser interface. Should a DOM parser be required to allow people to register DocumentHandlers? Probably not, but you do want methods like parse, setErrorHandler, and setEntityResolver. In short, I would suggest that the useful classes and interfaces from SAX 1.0 be moved to another package. Then, the interfaces and classes considered to be part of SAX2 can live in a separate package from the SAX 1.0 API. This would answer the question of how to expand the existing interfaces because the old APIs would not break. I'm not a fan of really long posts so I'm going to post another message with explicit details about which interfaces/classes would move; where they would go to; and what benefits we would get from the new separation. -- Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyclar@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri May 21 03:38:22 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990520183712.0123aae0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> There's a new issue up over at XML.com which highlights an argument that's been going on here and there in private, but never heretofore in public: Is XSL a good idea? I'll be extremely interested in what the xml-dev community thinks. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wdavies at cs.stanford.edu Fri May 21 05:00:48 1999 From: wdavies at cs.stanford.edu (Winton Davies) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: Using ID's usefully ? Message-ID: Dear All. Can anyone suggest a legit way in XML to do this: DTD: XML: c.1 <******* rather than a nested , re-use an id for a C object. <- obviously these maybe more structured. Thanks for getting this far! This is as trivial an example as I could make it - I hope the problem is clear: Principled re-use of ID's, and ELEMENT TYPING of ID's. It seems strange the only way to use IDREF's is in attributes (especially as there is no default "value" (c.f "id" for ID) ATTRIBUTE, nor a way to specify the ELEMENT TYPE of IDREF one may have). Also - how does one specify multiply IDREFS ? or something else ? Cheers, Winton ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: wdavies@cs.stanford.edu (Winton Davies) WWW: http://www-cs.stanford.edu/~wdavies Tel: OFFICE: 1-650-725-7469 (USA) FAX: 1-650-725-7411 Address: Room 206, Gates, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simonstl at simonstl.com Fri May 21 05:06:11 1999 From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:12 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990520183712.0123aae0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.0.1.19990520225257.040e06c0@207.211.141.31> At 06:37 PM 5/20/99 -0700, Tim Bray wrote: >There's a new issue up over at XML.com which highlights an argument that's >been going on here and there in private, but never heretofore in public: >Is XSL a good idea? Daggers have been out on the XSL-list on this issue for a good long time. (See the archives at http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list for too many details.) Hakon Wium Lie's "Formatting Objects Considered Harmful" (http://www.operasoftware.com/people/howcome/1999/foch.html) kicked off about two weeks of fairly explosive debate about a month ago, but these issues have been simmering for a long while. It's wonderful to see XML.com publishing controversial articles, especially ones whose viewpoint I happen to share. ;-) (Oops, I used a smiley. Haven't done that in a long time!) Simon St.Laurent XML: A Primer / Building XML Applications (June) Sharing Bandwidth / Cookies http://www.simonstl.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Fri May 21 05:50:44 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: how to refer to external entities in XML Message-ID: hi , i want to know how to refer to external entities in a XML file. thanks in advance Balaji Ranjan The ability to learn an ability from scratch is the ability u need to suceed. -- Anonymous xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Fri May 21 05:56:43 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: saving dom to file Message-ID: hi all, i am using XML4j2.0 parser.It has a sample application called DOMWriter which does this job.It does not recognize processing instructions,like .I have modified it in such a way that it doesn't use the default wrappers for parsing(I am using RevalidatingDOMParser ) which has come with the package. regards Balaji Ranjan The ability to learn an ability from scratch is the ability u need to suceed. -- Anonymous xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri May 21 06:21:16 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Using ID's usefully ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990521001801.00807100@nexus.polaris.net> At 07:57 PM 05/20/1999 -0700, Winton Davies wrote: >...I hope the problem is clear: Principled re-use of ID's, and >ELEMENT TYPING of ID's. I didn't really understand what you were trying to do. But now seems perfectly natural to me to use attributes for IDs, although I was confused about them myself at first. As I've come to understand it, an ID doesn't uniquely identify content (that is, the "thing" that the document represents). It uniquely identifies an occurrence of an *element* (that is, a piece of the markup). >It seems strange the only way to use IDREF's >is in attributes (especially as there is no default "value" (c.f "id" >for ID) ATTRIBUTE, nor a way to specify the ELEMENT TYPE of IDREF one >may have). The idea of a default value for an ID attribute is attractive to me; my DTD specifies numerous elements that can occur only once in the tree, and I wanted to declare defaults for all of these. When I raised the "Why not?" question on xml-dev a few months back, it was conceded that in a case like this, defaults might be useful, but the general feeling was that this wasn't a typical case. The point was moot anyhow: XML 1.0 just doesn't allow it. >Also - how does one specify multiply IDREFS ? attr1="2"> or something else ? Separate them with spaces: ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wdavies at cs.stanford.edu Fri May 21 07:11:24 1999 From: wdavies at cs.stanford.edu (Winton Davies) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Using ID's usefully ? In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990521001801.00807100@nexus.polaris.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19990521001801.00807100@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: Thanks John, Not sure if I understand the difference - surely an id is like an "address" to a piece of data (albeit in this case, wrapped up in the tags). If it is just to mark the structure, what possible purpose could it serve. I'm happy to use it only in attribute fields, but it seems such a kludge (as one can't specifiy the TYPE of the attribute), and worse doesn't seem to follow the nexted model. Cheers, Winton ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- E-Mail: wdavies@cs.stanford.edu (Winton Davies) WWW: http://www-cs.stanford.edu/~wdavies Tel: OFFICE: 1-650-725-7469 (USA) FAX: 1-650-725-7411 Address: Room 206, Gates, Stanford University, CA 94305, USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From reschke at medicaldataservice.de Fri May 21 07:32:21 1999 From: reschke at medicaldataservice.de (Julian Reschke) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: a schema validator-generator In-Reply-To: <3744347F.BC806DD8@redrice.com> Message-ID: <000001bea34a$c4d0d3c0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> > From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of > francis > Sent: Thursday, May 20, 1999 6:13 PM > To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; xsl-list@mulberrytech.com > Subject: a schema validator-generator > > > Hello, > > Inspired by Rick Jellife's note on using XSL to schema-validate XML > documents, I have written a note on using XSL to generate such XSL > schema validators directly from a schema, illustrated by a minimal > example that can work with the IE5 parser. > > I've also indulged in some speculations about future uses of this > approach, together with links to people already working in these > directions. > > The note is at http://www.redrice.com/ci/generatingXslValidators.html, > all comments welcome! Very interesting... Are you planning to go the full way and to complete this? Related to this: I have been playing around with the idea to use an XSL stylesheet to transform a subset of the current W3C draft into something that IE5 accepts as a schema. Although this wouldn't add any functionality to what IE5 provides, it would allow to start using a more standardized format, and it also would allow to easily test what's currently drafted. Now it seems to me that this is a very obvious thing to do -- is anybody else working on this? Julian xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From falk at icon.at Fri May 21 10:24:18 1999 From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Invitation to submit to the Open Directory Project Message-ID: As one of the editors of the XML category of the Open Directory Project (http://dmoz.org/) I would like to invite you all to submit your XML-related sites to the Open Directory for review and inclusion: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Data_Formats/Markup_Languages/XML/ We have recently restructured the XML category and are now accepting submissions in these subcategories: Document Types, Encoding, Globalization, Information, People, References and Standards, Resource Sites, Style Sheets, Tools, Vendors. When you plan to submit a site, please navigate to the appropriate subcategory and click on "add URL". If you believe that there is need to open a new subcategory, please e-mail me at mailto:falk@dmozed.org with a brief description of the new category and where it should be placed in your opinion. Btw, if you are operating an XML-related site yourself, please do also include the above link to the Open Directory on your site to spread the word... Thank you, ... ALEXANDER FALK ... Open Directory Project Editor ... mailto:falk@dmozed.org begin 600 Alexander Falk.vcf M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..D9A;&L[06QE>&%N9&5R.SM$ M20T*1DXZ06QE>&%N9&5R($9A;&L-"DY)0TM.04U%.D%,1@T*3U)'.DEC;VX@ M26YF;W)M871I;VYS+5-Y6%63G!:,C1S245L=5EY-'A(>D%D0F=. M5D)!`T*("`@(%)J M0D5"9TY60D%S5%!89#-D>34R6EA*<&,R;&YB:35J8C(P=F-M5G=B,TYP9$653.5-5145G4U%-$0D="9TY60D%-5%`Q6FQC;6Q485=D=4E%3G-96$YZ241% M9U$P16=35S5K85A:<`T*("`@(%I(5FAB0T)49%=*>EDS2G!9;59Y3%9";&-N M3G9B;45G5&TY,$E&6FAB1VQK65A2;%I$065&=S`U3T1!-$UJ07=-1$%W341" M80T*("`@($9W,#5/5$$T36I!>4UZ535.5&QA34E)0D1J15A-0E5'03%514-H M34]6;59Y859.<%HR-'-)16QU67DT>$AZ061"9TY60D%S5`T*("`@($9L6FQC M;6Q485=D=4E&4GED6$XP244U;&1(9'9C;7-X4FI"14)G3E9"07-44%AD,V1Y M-3):6$IP8S)L;F)I-6IB,C!V8VU6=PT*("`@(&(S3G!D1SEY95,Y4U5%16=3 M5S5J8C-*=TQI0FEE4T)36E=9=4Q%>$I154EU5$9214M'37!/5&=X2&I!8T)G M3E9"07-41E9";`T*("`@(&-N3G9B;45G5&TY,$E&6FAB1VQK65A2;%I$13!- M1$E'03%514-X37)21VQN85A2:&)#0DI20T)$8D=&>F-Y07A)0S!G5%=L:@T* M("`@(&-M.7IB,EHP245:,6)'=V=5,E9Y9&UL:EI415A-0E5'03%514%X44]1 M5WAL94=&=5I'5GE)15IH8D=S>$=Z05I"9VMQ:&MI1PT*("`@(#EW,$)#4457 M1$=::&)'=$%A5TYV8FDU:&1$0F)-03!'0U-Q1U-)8C-$445"05%504$P;T%- M16-#449367%62T5/=4,U5G931`T*("`@("M32'EU3VAT2U=,6$%U664S2VQJ M-W%0+V$Y0E9!-"M#5S(T9&]M<&59551),G!L1S9U,49#*UIL5UE447EX5%5F MD]I.'9D,V0S3&Y:;&-M;'IA5V1U M3&U.=F)3.4151DUW66=924MW64)"455(06=)=PT*("`@(%9J059&9S576EA* M<%4R;&YB:7=G4UDE%3E%5>4)P M8FU.=F-N075)1THU24A*;`T*("`@(%IM5GE:5S5J6E-"F-Z3E1L:5I747A9:D$Q3U=2:$YZ5FE9>E)I67IK,TU$13-.1&1K6516 M:DXR63%-5%%X66U6:%I'27E9;5%Y6E1H;0T*("`@($UZ0FE95TTR3U=9>EI$ M8WA-5%$U3U1::$UM231.1%)M65=9>EI713!.5%%X34$P1T-3<4=326(S1%%% M0D)!54%!-$="04%,1PT*("`@($TR;78O8W5+4C-(;U%,>#5"4TAG>#5D>DQ# M+TET4W19;F]YE-W References: <3.0.32.19990520183712.0123aae0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14149.12612.687870.379188@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > There's a new issue up over at XML.com which highlights an argument > that's been going on here and there in private, but never > heretofore in public: Is XSL a good idea? I'll be extremely > interested in what the xml-dev community thinks. As a process rather than a format, XSL starts at a severe disadvantage -- the benefit of standardising a formatting/transformation language (such as XSL[T] or DSSSL) is *much* lower than the benefit of standardising a document markup language (such as XML or SGML), especially as the quantity of documentation increases. Here's a simple example: imagine a large company that maintains a *lot* of documentation, say, 1M pages or more (such as a large software company, and airplane manufacturer, etc.), and that spends a lot of money and time manually editing and tweaking that documentation for different outputs and processes. The initial cost of setting up a big, automated XML or SGML production system is high (perhaps many millions), but the benefit of standardising is directly proportional to the amount of documentation that exists: it will (roughly) bring twice the benefit for 2M pages as that will for 1M pages. There is an enormous economy of scale here, which can quickly offset the cost of setting up an XML or SGML system in the first place. Now, let's say that the same company is considering using XSL rather than customized Perl scripts for generating output and for general processing of those documents. There can still, of course, be benefits to standardizing (especially if there are OTS software components available), but those benefits are proportional only to the number of existing scripts or document types -- XSL will bring exactly the same benefit for 1,000 pages as it will for 1,000,000 pages, assuming the same number of processes and document types. Now, this example is (1) document-centric rather than data-centric; and (2) focussed on the production side rather than the client/browser side. I'll leave it to others to discuss the client-side benefits. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri May 21 13:44:35 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: how to refer to external entities in XML In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: * Balaji Ranjan | | i want to know how to refer to external entities in a XML file. To define an external entity put in your internal DTD subset or in the external one, then write &foo; somewhere in your document. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri May 21 14:51:03 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: SAX2: Migration strategies for option (2) Message-ID: I've been giving some thought to how we could go about making the transition from SAX1 to SAX2 as painless as possible if we were to take David's option (2): adding new methods to existing interfaces. As far as I can make out the following might be the best bet. We'll need to use a marker interface, but it's not used in _quite_ the same way as in some of the other proposals that have been made over the last few days. It's defined as follows, public interface SAX2 { } All SAX2 parser implementations should implement this interface, ie., public class MySAX2Parser implements Parser, SAX2 { // etc. } Now, we migrate in one of two ways, depending on what guarantees we can make about which Java platform we're working with. 1. Where a SAX2 client application can *guarantee* that it's running on the Java 2 platform it uses a version of SAX2 implemented along the lines I discussed in, http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9905/0425.html This allows those fortunate enough to be able to specify Java 2 to have perfect forwards and backwards compatibility between SAX1 and SAX2. Invoking such an application would be done something like this, java \ (a) (b) (c) -classpath SAX2.jar:SAX2ClientApp.jar:SAXParser.jar \ SAXClientMain Where, (a) SAX2.jar contains the SAX2 classes and interfaces, incorporating the adapter mechanism I outlined. (b) SAX2ClientApp is the SAX2 client. (c) SAXParser.jar is a SAX parser. This could be either a SAX1 or a SAX2 parser, and it makes no difference whether or not the SAX1/2 classes and interfaces are bundled in with it in the same jar. References to the SAX classes and interfaces will resolve to the versions present in SAX2.jar, even those made from a SAX1 parser, because SAX2.jar apprears on the classpath first. 2. Where a SAX2 client application can *not* guarantee that it is running on the Java 2 platform *and* it desires compatibility with SAX1, it should use whatever SAX classes and interfaces come bundled with the parser it is run against, and should itself be bundled with the SAX2 marker interface *only*. When creating a Parser SAX2 client apps can test for the presence of the marker interface and act accordingly, ie. Parser p = ParserFactory.makeParser(); (*) if(p instanceof SAX2) // (**) { // do SAX2 stuff } else { // do SAX1 stuff } The use of the SAX classes and interfaces bundled with the parser (whichever SAX version it conforms to) ensures that at (*) it will be possible to instantiate a Parser irrespective of JDK version. The presence of the marker interface on the classpath ensures that the line marked (**) will not fail with a ClassNotFoundException. The use of the marker interface is preferable to catching NoSuchMethodErrors, both from the maintainability/comprehensibility, and from the efficiency points of view. Note that both (1) and (2) are transitional strategies. We should encourage parser developers to move to SAX2 as soon as possible so that these shenanigans can be dropped and the SAX2 interface can be deprecated (in fact we might consider deprecating it from the outset). Note that there is no comparable problem with combinations of SAX1 *clients* with SAX2 parsers: the only SAX2 interface which is being modified is Parser and that will not (normally? ever?) be implemented in the client. Consequently the IncompatibleClassChange problem that I highlighted in, http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9905/0465.html will not occur. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri May 21 15:25:09 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com] > XSL will bring exactly > the same benefit for 1,000 pages as it will for 1,000,000 pages, > assuming the same number of processes and document types. Arguably, the cost-benefit of using XSL versus custom processing is greater in the 1,000 page case than in the 1,000,000 page case, because in the latter you can afford extra development effort to achieve better run-time performance. Mike xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 21 15:54:47 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> Kay Michael writes: > Arguably, the cost-benefit of using XSL versus custom processing is > greater in the 1,000 page case than in the 1,000,000 page case, > because in the latter you can afford extra development effort to > achieve better run-time performance. An interesting perspective -- in other words, you're suggesting that standardising on XSL actually becomes relatively *less* important as the scale of the project increases. That might be a reasonable consequence of the suggestion that an increase in the quantity of documentation (of the same type) leads to an increase in the benefit of standardising on XML, but not on XSL. On the other hand, with a large project (especially one that's distributed over several centres), you do have to consider the cost of maintenance; this one ends up as a split decision: 1. XSL will be easier to maintain because it is mostly declarative rather than procedural, and there is less room for obfuscation (please don't take that as a dare, though). 2. Perl (or Java, etc.) will be easier to maintain because there is a large pool of Perl developers to draw on, while XSL specialists will probably be few and expensive, at least for the next few years. All the best, David p.s. I *loved* DSSSL, and will probably learn to love XSL once I get around to learning it properly; I'm discussing the business merits here, not the technical ones. -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From francis at redrice.com Fri May 21 16:46:15 1999 From: francis at redrice.com (francis) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: a schema validator-generator References: <000001bea34a$c4d0d3c0$cf00a8c0@nbreschke> Message-ID: <37456FFA.3C6E6B36@redrice.com> I don't know about "completing" it - I'm not even sure if that's possible. I'll probably extend it to handle more aspects of element content, such as DCD groups. After that I may take it further, or move sideways into generating other kinds of XML/XSL from schemas, depending on what seems most useful. I think schema translation sounds like a good area - the application doesn't need to run too fast, and, as you say, you will really explore schemas and XSLT. If XML-Data Reduced is a subset of XML Schema, it might be worth doing the reverse process too, once we have XML Schema validators. Francis. Julian Reschke wrote: > ... > > Very interesting... Are you planning to go the full way and to complete > this? > > Related to this: I have been playing around with the idea to use an XSL > stylesheet to transform a subset of the current W3C draft into something > that IE5 accepts as a schema. Although this wouldn't add any functionality > to what IE5 provides, it would allow to start using a more standardized > format, and it also would allow to easily test what's currently drafted. > > Now it seems to me that this is a very obvious thing to do -- is anybody > else working on this? > > Julian -- Francis Norton. The Melissa Virus - just nature's way of telling us we should have gone Java xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri May 21 16:58:44 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990521105825.007c2980@nexus.polaris.net> At 09:53 AM 05/21/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > [Michael Kay's] suggesting that >standardising on XSL actually becomes relatively *less* important as >the scale of the project increases. That might be a reasonable >consequence of the suggestion that an increase in the quantity of >documentation (of the same type) leads to an increase in the benefit >of standardising on XML, but not on XSL. Got lost in the syntax of that last sentence. Could you recast? >p.s. I *loved* DSSSL, and will probably learn to love XSL once I get > around to learning it properly; I'm discussing the business > merits here, not the technical ones. I came to the party, such as it is, too late to (want to) learn anything about DSSSL. But XSL was a revelation to me, and I don't think of myself as an unknowledgeable programmer. So yeah, I think you'll have fun with it. Focusing on the business merits is good, as long as by "business" we include the zillion firms (and individuals) who'd be much more clueless (and unable to pay for cluefulness) about Real Programming than about XSLT. I always understood (maybe wrongly) the analogy to be: SGML : XML :: DSSSL : XSL Smaller scale buys much more widespread acceptance. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 21 17:04:18 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:13 2004 Subject: SAX2: Another thought on subtyping, modification, etc. Message-ID: <14149.29503.879090.83090@localhost.localdomain> There have been many good suggestions on this thread about how to proceed with SAX2 (modification vs. subtyping vs. separate interfaces). I was thinking about this problem last night, and it occurred to me that the ability to query and set features and properties might be useful not only for parsers but also for handlers, and perhaps for specialised data structures of some sort. If that's the case, then a separate interface makes a lot of sense: package org.xml.sax; public interface Configurable { public abstract void setFeature (String featureId, boolean state) throws SAXException; public abstract boolean getFeature (String featureId) throws SAXException; public abstract void setProperty (String propertyId, Object value) throws SAXException; public abstract Object getProperty (String propertyId) throws SAXException; } In addition to filters, I can imagine general-purpose DocumentHandlers (etc.) for things like writing XML, populating a database, etc., and there might be value in allowing an application to query them as well. To make life easier (and to save casting), we could also extend Parser, etc. if people wanted to: public interface ConfigurableParser extends Parser, Configurable { } public interface ConfigurableDocumentHandler extends DocumentHandler, Configurable { } etc. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri May 21 17:36:39 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: SAX2: Another thought on subtyping, modification, etc. Message-ID: David Megginson wrote, > I was thinking about this problem last night, and it > occurred to me that the ability to query and set > features and properties might be useful not only for > parsers but also for handlers, and perhaps for > specialised data structures of some sort. If that's > the case, then a separate interface makes a lot of > sense That'd be quite a nice why of making what would've been a wart into a feature. Unfortunately I'm not sure that there really is anything that can be usefully done with the Configurable interface on anything other than Parser. Who would use it? Not a Parser surely: a general purpose parser can't be expected to do anything very much with any special features of the innumerable client-side handlers that might be plugged into it. The client itself? Well, if the client needs to support extended functionality on its handlers it should just define a clean, strongly- typed extended interface and use that directly. To do otherwise would be poor software design practise. In part the reason for this contrast (between Parser and the other interfaces) is that parsers represent a relatively tightly constrained domain: that means there's a reasonable prospect of providing access to their functionality via a reasonably simple, well defined interface, and being able to reuse them via that interface. SAX1 has done that up to now, but it's become clear over time both that some extensions are necessary for some applications, and that those are not necessarily desirable in all parsers. That, to my mind, is enough to motivate David's extensibility mechanism for SAX2. Handlers, on the other hand, don't represent anything like so tightly constrained a domain: they represent what an application _wants_to_do_with_ a parser, and there's no way we can set bounds on that. This being so, we shouldn't expect handlers to be particularly reusable, and so the pressure to find an extensiblity mechanism for them is considerably less than it is for parsers. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 17:46:14 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Using ID's usefully ? References: Message-ID: <37457BC3.F6AD72F4@prescod.net> Winton Davies wrote: > > Thanks for getting this far! This is as trivial an example as I could > make it - I hope the problem is clear: Principled re-use of ID's, and > ELEMENT TYPING of ID's. Maybe you should say what you are trying to do at a higher level. ID's are designed to mark an element in a document. Therefore reusing the ID is not useful. If you want to "reuse" an element then you could express that with IDs: Your higher level code would have to implement the semantic of element reuse. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 18:04:25 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> I think that it is worth noting that most of the people who are in the "XSL camp" are people are thoroughly familiar with scripting languages. The reverse is not true. We have tried both and found the XSL way to be more convenient. There is no programming language that quite captures XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern matching and convenient template description. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Fri May 21 18:14:59 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: Paul Prescod wrote, > There is no programming language that quite captures > XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern > matching and convenient template description. No, but do they have to be part of the *language*? Wouldn't a hypothetical DOM level X with direct support for XSL style queries not address most of these issues? Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Fri May 21 19:08:28 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9D@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Wouldn't a hypothetical DOM level X with direct support > for XSL style queries not address most of these issues? That's where I started with SAXON: when I started writing it I was quite convinced that a Java class library with sufficiently powerful methods was the best approach. The Java API is still available, with full pattern and expression support, but I now find that I do most routine things using the XSL interface. Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From SMUENCH at us.oracle.com Fri May 21 19:24:17 1999 From: SMUENCH at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <199905211722.KAA00235@mailsun2.us.oracle.com> There are plenty of customers I work with who want to build web pages and data structures for data-exchange by specifying a "template" of what they would like to come out and "plug-in" the data from their database query directly into the template. Many of these developers are familar with the declarative nature of SQL which lets them ask the database to "SELECT" what they want "FROM" the sources they need "WHERE" certain conditions exists. They are looking for a template-based way to create these pages and "datagrams" and are not willing to write DOM manipulation code to produce a simple web page output when something like: would be used to "plug-in" the data. I find many of Michael Leventhal's arguments of the form: "You don't need XSL since you can do it with DOM" to be analogous to saying: "You don't need SQL since you can get the data out by using assembly language to iterate the bytes on the disk blocks to retrieve what you need!" _________________________________________________________ Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist Business Components for Java Dev't Team http://www.oracle.com/xml -------------- next part -------------- An embedded message was scrubbed... From: Miles Sabin Subject: RE: Questioning XSL Date: 21 May 99 09:11:05 Size: 2840 Url: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990521/1d617297/attachment.eml From donpark at quake.net Fri May 21 19:26:24 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <14149.12612.687870.379188@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <001c01bea3af$2ca0e9e0$ce6ffea9@w21tp> I think one of the problems XSL has is that it tries to do too much, sort of dancing all over the place, stepping on toes wholesale, and bewildering its dancing partner into embarrassment. At least, I often find myself bewildered and embarrassed that I can't seem to easily grasp it (Prolog is declarative yet easier for me to dance with than XSL). On the other hand, XSL has features that I really like such as selection patterns. I have ran into many situations where I wished I could get NodeList from selection patterns or ask SAX to notify this 'ElementHandler' for that selection pattern. Cool stuff. If XSL had formal support for scripting languages, I could do without the conditional processing stuff. I don't mind formatting objects because I know I will never use them. On the whole, I dislike XSL but I want it because I need it. Note that I am talking about XSLT only and not the evil twin brother. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 21 19:28:04 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14149.37493.928529.366827@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > I think that it is worth noting that most of the people who are in the > "XSL camp" are people are thoroughly familiar with scripting languages. > The reverse is not true. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I'd be very interested in finding out exactly what Paul's observation has been: 1. that most people in the anti-XSL camp are not thoroughly familiar with scripting languages; 2. that most people who are not thoroughly familiar with scripting languages are still not in the anti-XSL camp; or 3. that thorough familiarity with languages other than scripting languages does not automatically push someone into the anti-XSL camp. > We have tried both and found the XSL way to be more > convenient. There is no programming language that quite captures > XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern matching and > convenient template description. In my experience, it has been much easier to develop and maintain DSSSL scripts than procedural code for XML/SGML transformation or formatting tasks, and I fully expect that (like Paul) I will have the same experience with XSL. Nevertheless, unless otherwise requested, I will continue to provide my customers with (well-documented and carefully modularized) Perl scripts or Java code for the time being, because that way they can modify and maintain their systems themselves rather than relying on expensive XML specialists. Any XSL I contribute will probably sit outside the system core, in samples, demos, free downloads, etc. If, in the future, there is a lot of good OTS software for XSL, the spec is stable, and there's a wide (and growing) user and developer base, then I will happily change my strategy and rejoice that my technical work has become a little easier. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com Fri May 21 19:32:46 1999 From: nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com (Ogievetsky, Nikita) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <9C998CDFE027D211B61300A0C9CF9AB4424776@SNYC11309> James Tauber wrote: I suggested this to TimBL at WWW8 but he didn't buy it. My argument went something like this: 1. Namespace URIs don't have to point to anything retrievable, they are just unique identifiers 2. Some URI schemes might not be web-retrievable (eg "isbn:1-23456-789-0") 3. Some URI schemes *are* web-retrievable (eg http://www.megginson.com/ns/) 4. So namespaces URIs *can* point to something, though, such as a human-readable description of the namespace, if they use a URI scheme that is web-retrievable. 5. If this is done, how does one distinguish referencing the namespace from referencing the file describing the namespace And in some cases like with xsl, xlink, etc. the alias itself becomes unique ( even though one can use the word "reserved"). And the URI becomes a version number. Let us say I will start using "xthing:" alias for namespaces in my documents. How can I be guarantied that next year somebody will not come up with XThing recommendation and future versions of XML parsers will make it a reserved word? Isn't it against some basic XML principles? 6. My suggestion: come up with a new URI scheme that has the same scheme-specific syntax as an http URI but that is only intended as a unique identifier. Another crazy idea: use xlink to describe namespaces Nikita Ogievetsky xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From puff at netcom.com Fri May 21 19:35:15 1999 From: puff at netcom.com (Steven J. Owens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: XML for CICS Copybooks? Message-ID: <199905211733.KAA24816@netcom16.netcom.com> Hi, Does anybody know if there are IBM products to support automatic conversion of data from IBM CICS "copybook" format to some flavor of XML? I'm working on building a tool, in java, on Unix, to talk via MQ Series to a CICS system. I don't know a whole lot about CICS, apparently the standard way to specify a data format in CICS is a "copybook"; rather than build a piece-by-piece system to translate data for each copybook, I'd like to find a CICS package that can translate any given copybook & data into an XML DTD&document and then have the java tool on the Unix side use an XML parser to parse the XML into usable data objects. This strikes me as a very good spot to use something like XML. Unfortunately, I can't find anything about XML in CICS on the web. The closest I came was an article where somebody opined that IBM would be adding XML stuff to MQSeries, CICS, and similar products Sometime Real Soon Now, if they were smart. Steven J. Owens puff@netcom.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 19:45:48 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: Message-ID: <374596A1.F504E1EA@prescod.net> Miles Sabin wrote: > > No, but do they have to be part of the *language*? > > Wouldn't a hypothetical DOM level X with direct support > for XSL style queries not address most of these issues? I asked for: > XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern > matching and convenient template description. You've given me only pattern matching. In JavaScript, Python or Perl I would have to write the polymorphic dispatch engine myself and likely write my output templates in some weird non-XML syntax: make( "HTML" ) or write( "" ) or something. I spend most of my programming time in a scripting language. I have already helped design two or three XML/SGML processing packages for that scripting language. It is my considered opinion that it is *not* the same unless the scripting language is designed from the ground up to handle XML: (Omnimark, Balise, DSSSL). I mean it is theoretically possible that there is a language out there that just naturally fits XSL-style-processing, but it sure isn't Javascript. There is a huge amount of information in a simple rule like: The script-language equivalent would be something like: pattern = compilePattern( "B" ) function B_template( current_node ){ make_group( make_element( "BOLD", dispatch_children( current_node ))) } xsl_engine.add( pattern, B_template ) Now I fully expect to write code like this in the future. There is a Python library like this under development already. But I don't believe that this is as simple to learn as XSL because first you have to learn the intricacies of a scripting language ("oh, functions can be arguments?") and then you have to learn the intricacies of the library. You could have learned XSL directly in less time. And even so, this code is less amenable to optimization than XSL code is because you have the full dynamicity of the programming language to deal with. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Fri May 21 19:55:37 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:14 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF594@RED-MSG-08> Speaking about namespaces, Nikita Ogivetsky wrote "And in some cases like with xsl, xlink, etc. the alias itself becomes unique ( even though one can use the word "reserved"). And the URI becomes a version number." What do you mean by this? Do you mean that sometimes a namespace prefix is an alias to a URI, where the particular prefix is immaterial and it is the URI that identifies the namespace, while at other times the namespace is identified by the specifc prefix employed? If this is your meaning, I recommend that you study sections 1, 2 and 3 of the namespaces specification, http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/, paying particular attention to the exact definitions of the various terms and to the sentance reading "Note that the prefix functions only as a placeholder for a namespace name. Applications should use the namespace name, not the prefix, in constructing names whose scope extends beyond the containing document." Another useful document to read is Tim Berners-Lee's "Web Architecture from 50,000 feet" at http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Architecture.html, particularly the passage "Guidelines for new Web developments are that they should respect the generic definition and syntax of URIs, not introduce new URI schemes without due cause, not introduce any different scheme which puts itself forward as to be universal as a superset of URIs which would effectively require information apart from a URI to be used as a reference. Also, in new developments, all significant objects with any form of persistent identity should be "first class objects" for which a URI exists. New systems should use URIs where a reference exists, without making constraint on the scheme (old or new) which is chosen." xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 20:08:32 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9D@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: <37459DAD.73BD3C84@prescod.net> Kay Michael wrote: > > That's where I started with SAXON: when I started writing it I was quite > convinced that a Java class library with sufficiently powerful methods was > the best approach. That has been my experience in the past also. > The Java API is still available, with full pattern and > expression support, but I now find that I do most routine things using the > XSL interface. Do you mean: interface xsl{ .... } or ... -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 20:45:55 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> <14149.37493.928529.366827@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3745A69B.C1CAD31F@prescod.net> [I think that xml.com's forums are not quite working right yet] David Megginson wrote: > > clarification please Well, I should be careful here because the other camp is very amorphous. But I will say that I have observed on many occasions someone coming into the XSL mailing list saying: "I already do all of this junk in my favorite programming language? Don't you people know that there is nothing to invent here?" The first recorded example was an editorial by Dan Schafer on "builder.com": Typically they either never get around to becoming expert at XSL (as seems to be the case with Michael Leventhal) or they change their minds once they do (as with Mike Kay). > But now we have all kinds of proposals proliferating at places > like the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), including such > wrong-headed ideas as Extensible Stylesheet Language (XSL). > This concept, which tries to take the XML idea of data > description into the realm of display description, creates > situations where we have to somehow associate an XML file > with an XSL file. The mechanism for this association is almost > certainly going to be JavaScript. So why not just eliminate the > middleware and have JavaScript talk directly to XML through > the DOM to tell a document how to display its contents? Seems > a lot simpler and more direct to me. http://www.builder.com/Authoring/Shafer/020298/index.html I haven't yet seen anyone who seemed really knowledgable about XSL turn around and say: "you know what, this isn't buying much, I'll go back to Python/Perl/XYZ." There are various reasons to use XYZ over XSL but I'm talking about *abandoning* XSL for XYZ. There may be counter-examples and it would be interesting to hear about them. Abandoning a language you know well is not so rare. Most Python users are refugees from other languages that seemed perfect for a while (Perl, Scheme, Smalltalk) but got less perfect as they became expert at it. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 21 20:53:48 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <3745A69B.C1CAD31F@prescod.net> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> <14149.37493.928529.366827@localhost.localdomain> <3745A69B.C1CAD31F@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14149.43664.579930.329446@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Abandoning a language you know well is not so rare. Most Python > users are refugees from other languages that seemed perfect for a > while (Perl, Scheme, Smalltalk) but got less perfect as they became > expert at it. Wow! I've never had the experience of using a language that seemed perfect, or even nearly so. There is an exhilaration that comes with finally understanding a new way of thinking (say, moving from BASIC to functional programming, or from functional to object oriented, or from dumb OO programming to design patterns), but I've never mistaken that for a real orgasm. When I hear Paul oohing and aahing over Python, I'm tempted to order what he's having. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Fri May 21 21:13:13 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values Message-ID: <19990521191101.10757.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Hi all, Is it possible to specify numbers as attribute values in a XML DTD. If so let me know. Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Fri May 21 21:40:43 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values In-Reply-To: <19990521191101.10757.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990521154010.00b0e100@nexus.polaris.net> At 12:11 PM 05/21/1999 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote: >Is it possible to specify numbers as attribute values >in a XML DTD. In absolute terms, yes. But in relative terms, one has to add, "well, it depends...." In this case it depends on the attribute type. IDs can't be numeric only, for instance -- they've got to at least *start* with a name character. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Fri May 21 22:01:29 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values Message-ID: <19990521195414.19283.rocketmail@attach1.rocketmail.com> I'll describe two cases First case : Second Case : It is not working in both the cases. Please throw some light on this. Thank U. CU, Malliks ---"John E. Simpson" wrote: > > At 12:11 PM 05/21/1999 -0700, Mallikarjuna Sangappa wrote: > >Is it possible to specify numbers as attribute values > >in a XML DTD. > > In absolute terms, yes. But in relative terms, one has to add, "well, it > depends...." In this case it depends on the attribute type. IDs can't be > numeric only, for instance -- they've got to at least *start* with a name > character. > ========================================================== > John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth > simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. > http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Fri May 21 22:19:02 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: I dunno guys, I really am looking forward to using XML for full-blown production. The first "language" I ever learned from front to back (besides BASIC on my VIC20 and GEOS on my C64) was SGML. Some may not count that as a language, but whole new ideas and concepts sprang from the learning process. Then I sat down to learn C. Arrrrrgh.... The same thing with DSSSL. I learned how to write some decent DSSSL scripts, then decided I would tackle Scheme, thinking it wouldn't be that bad of a leap. My mistake. Of course I may just not be a natural programmer. Or maybe I haven't had that "epiphany" that I had with SGML after 2 long and frustrating months of trying to understand entities, SUBDOCS, CDATA, SDATA, ect. and then reading some small, tucked away webpage and just sitting there in my chair going "ooooooohhh.... ahhhhhhh....", then turning around and putting all the syntax and structure and concepts that I learned to real use. Basically, what I am trying to say is XSL has (most of) the functionality needed to transform/format markup, without learning a scripting language. I know a lot of people who use HTML and CSS, but just do not like javascript or perl. For the intricate maintenance of an enormous corporate website using web-enabled databases, sure, scripting is necessary. But maybe someday, it won't have to be. That may be the key to large-scale acceptance. People who want XML to extend their sites/pages beyond HTML, and nothing more. You can do a lot with perl. You can do a lot with java, and scheme, and vbscript, and all these other scripting languages. But what if you don't want to? Why should people have to learn a whole new language just to change some of their pages from one doctype to another? Or to build a stylesheet? Granted if the browsers would give 100% support to CSS1 and CSS2, there might not be an enormous need for XML for formatting. But the transformation is important. That's what I like about DSSSL. Not only can you go from one SGML or XML doctype to another, but you can add backends to transform to a number of file formats. I just want to see XSL stabilize and make recommendation status, and see what vendors do with it. You never know. It may end up tucked away as public domain software run from the command line that the average person won't bother messing with (similar to DSSSL) or there may be some really impressive, user-friendly, straightforward tools that spring forth from this and scripting languages may just wane in popularity among the general populace who build their homepages at Geocities, or post sites on the few megs of server space their ISP gives them with their dialup account. All the implications of XML for e-commerce and corporate websites, portals and the like is all fine and good. But it just ain't what the internet is about. It's information given freely for anyone that wants or needs it. I have probably learned more off the internet in the last year than I have in the 7 years since I have been out of high school. It would be very beneficial to the growth of the net if the scripting was left to programmers, and anyone that just had something to say had an easy way of doing it. Here's to wishful thinking, -Jason Has anyone checked out http://www.cluetrain.com (I think Dave Winer is a part of this group... good show, man...) > -----Original Message----- > From: David Megginson [SMTP:david@megginson.com] > Paul Prescod writes: > > > Abandoning a language you know well is not so rare. Most Python > > users are refugees from other languages that seemed perfect for a > > while (Perl, Scheme, Smalltalk) but got less perfect as they became > > expert at it. > > Wow! I've never had the experience of using a language that seemed > perfect, or even nearly so. There is an exhilaration that comes with > finally understanding a new way of thinking (say, moving from BASIC to > functional programming, or from functional to object oriented, or from > dumb OO programming to design patterns), but I've never mistaken that > for a real orgasm. > > When I hear Paul oohing and aahing over Python, I'm tempted to order > what he's having. > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 21 22:38:31 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> <14149.37493.928529.366827@localhost.localdomain> <3745A69B.C1CAD31F@prescod.net> <14149.43664.579930.329446@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3745C27A.A4D39BFD@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > When I hear Paul oohing and aahing over Python, I'm tempted to order > what he's having. And its free! Actually, I've only ever claimed Python had one virtue: it doesn't suck. Java comes in second place for unsucky-ness but the current debate about how to work around its type system makes me think twice. I think that it is actually pretty pathetic that programming languages haven't moved far beyond Python by now but all I can do is use the least annoying of them. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Sat May 22 00:52:14 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990521155220.016f5100@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 03:30 PM 5/21/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >Actually, I've only ever claimed Python had one virtue: it doesn't suck. >Java comes in second place So, uh, Paul, does XSL suck? Not that I want to pin you down or anything. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ebohlman at netcom.com Sat May 22 05:53:02 1999 From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 21 May 1999, Paul Prescod wrote: > I think that it is worth noting that most of the people who are in the > "XSL camp" are people are thoroughly familiar with scripting languages. > The reverse is not true. We have tried both and found the XSL way to be > more convenient. There is no programming language that quite captures > XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern matching and > convenient template description. It also appears to me, from what I've read of the controversy, that most of the people in the anti-XSL camp seem to be thinking of XML primarily as a medium for writing Web pages to be displayed in browsers. I'm wondering if they're really reacting to Microsoft's emphasis on browser-integrated XSL, which from what I've seen of it appears to follow the traditional Microsoft pattern of making simple tasks complicated, at least from the programmer's point of view, and which some people *could* construe as being part of a "de-commodification" strategy. I certainly do agree with Hakon Lie's point that it would be a disaster if XSL formatting objects caught on as a document-delivery medium (I've done a good deal of accessibility work and am a member of the Techwatch taskforce, an advisory group to the US National Council on Disability). We need to be pushing rendering and similar interpretive decisions as close to the final client as possible, not making them as early as possible. Otherwise XML merely becomes a DTP-oriented replacement for HTML, which is what we've been trying to get away from. I'm wondering if a better transformation language could be built on an awk-style pattern/action structure, where the patterns would be something like XQL expressions (or possibly even XPointers) and the actions would be arbitrary code in any convenient scripting language, with a convention for representing the data matched by the patterns. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca Sat May 22 07:53:34 1999 From: Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca (Arved Sandstrom) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections Message-ID: Hi, all There is a modest effort being assembled to look at this prototypical problem: PROBLEM - multitudes of XML documents. The collection is not necessarily static, but if dynamic only incrementally so. The business case that would apply is that it makes sense to markup the original documents using XML; it also makes sense to search a file which is a description of the document collection rather than the whole document collection. The derivative file is the "index" - we are not assuming that it itself need be XML. I am choosing my language carefully as there seems to be an equal mixture of enthusiasm and coolness displayed towards an XML document collection indexing scheme. The fact of the matter is that so far we have identified a number of problems which are amenable to assisted search. We are not particularly concerned, at this point, in breaking any new ground in XML - rather, this is a project designed to address a subset of XML "usage" problems. Although I have announced this project on the perl-xml list, and it will concentrate on Perl, with and without XS, there is no reason that Java and/or C/C++ viewpoints are not welcome. We are primarily interested in exploring issues pertaining to the construction of a file that describes a collection of XML documents in a succinct fashion, most likely with a moderate to high degree of application specificity - i.e. there may not be a lot of defaults that make sense. We also wish to supply a useful API that search engine writers can use. This is really at an early stage. I'm announcing it here to get some feedback. If there is fundamental agreement about one thing, it's that there are going to be cases to be made for collections of XML documents, the problem will involve searching them, there will be too many files to be searched by brute force, and we are proposing that a document can be constructed which summarizes some desired knowledge about the collection (we're not even saying - yet - that the index itself need be sorted), and in the simplest sense, because it happens to be much smaller can be searched instead, supplies fast pointers to individual XML files, and you take it from there. Whew! :-) Anyway, feedback welcome. If you wish to contribute please contact me. I will be posting a formal note concerning folks involved within the week. Thanks. Arved Sandstrom xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sat May 22 12:52:14 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:15 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990521155220.016f5100@pop.intergate.bc.ca> References: <3.0.32.19990521155220.016f5100@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <14150.35803.953479.375803@localhost.localdomain> Tim Bray writes: > At 03:30 PM 5/21/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > >Actually, I've only ever claimed Python had one virtue: it doesn't > >suck. Java comes in second place > > So, uh, Paul, does XSL suck? Not that I want to pin you down or > anything. -Tim I do remember Paul's criticism on stage that Java lives in a (100% pure Java) bubble, while Python talks to everything; I wonder where XSL fits in on that scale. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 22 16:06:51 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi Arved, Although I have announced this project on the perl-xml list, and it will concentrate on Perl, with and without XS, there is no reason that Java and/or C/C++ viewpoints are not welcome. We are primarily interested in exploring issues pertaining to the construction of a file that describes a collection of XML documents in a succinct fashion, most likely with a moderate to high degree of application specificity - i.e. there may not be a lot of defaults that make sense. We also wish to supply a useful API that search engine writers can use. There is obviously a need for such tool in the context of IETMs, also in the context of XML sites. I nothing against Perl but why not considering C/C++ and PERL? (this is not a critic but a question) C/C++ for speed and Perl for convenience. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From creitzel at mediaone.net Sat May 22 18:38:54 1999 From: creitzel at mediaone.net (Charles Reitzel) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <199905221638.MAA28616@chmls06.mediaone.net> From: David Megginson >There can still, of course, be >benefits to standardizing (especially if there are OTS software >components available), but those benefits are proportional only to the >number of existing scripts or document types -- XSL will bring exactly >the same benefit for 1,000 pages as it will for 1,000,000 pages, >assuming the same number of processes and document types. The same argument applies, of course, to XML, SGML, TCP/IP or any standard. The need for standards is inversely proportional to the scale of the job. Very large jobs are rarely implementable using pure standards. If interoperability is required a standards compliant runtime interface is provided. An example would be an LDAP interface for Novell NDS. Novell, btw, recently tested a directory containing a *billion* user entries. I imagine the same kind of thing happening in the document space. Builders of large document repositories will do what they have to do to get the system to run. They may then use a DSSSL/XSL layer to export SGML, XML, MS Word, HTML, etc. (Forgive me if I'm misrepresenting DSSSL capabilities). So I think XSL will be much more important to the 1,000 page users. As you point out, they have a much smaller potential return and, therefore, a proportionally smaller document repository software budget. This is good news. The very large sites have had repositories for years. There are many, many more small to medium scale sites. The XSL standard should really be targeted at the OTS software vendors supporting this user base. As always, design for the norm, allow the odd case. The same thinking applies to most "Internet" software. The fact is, large companies have been on-line to each other for years. It is the small to medium scale operations that are starting to leverage the public network. Personally, I think this is a fascinating phenomenon of no small economic importantance. Simplifying and clarifying XML/XSL could help this process along. Later in the thread: David Megginson >1. XSL will be easier to maintain because it is mostly declarative > rather than procedural, and there is less room for obfuscation > (please don't take that as a dare, though). This is a tough question. In the SQL space I learned over time when to lean on the declarative power of SQL and when to avoid it. Some things are just more procedural in nature, others declarative. The trick is knowing how to combine procedural and declarative logic for the problem at hand. The database industry has come full circle on this topic and now Java w/ embedded SQL is becoming the database stored-procedure language of choice. Same issue, different context. For XSL, strong declarative capabilities will take you far (especially if the syntax isn't too obscure). If you need to do something procedural, and you will, I imagine you would break up the problem into multiple, small, efficient XSL queries and piece the resulting parts together with Java (via SAX extensions for XSL, of course). Best regards, Charles Reitzel xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca Sat May 22 18:41:18 1999 From: Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca (Arved Sandstrom) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Sat, 22 May 1999, Didier PH Martin wrote: > > Although I have announced this project on the perl-xml list, and it will > concentrate on Perl, with and without XS, there is no reason that Java > and/or C/C++ viewpoints are not welcome. We are primarily interested in > exploring issues pertaining to the construction of a file that describes a > collection of XML documents in a succinct fashion, most likely with a > moderate to high degree of application specificity - i.e. there may not be > a lot of defaults that make sense. > > We also wish to supply a useful API that search engine writers can use. > > > > There is obviously a need for such tool in the context of IETMs, also in the > context of XML sites. I nothing against Perl but why not considering C/C++ > and PERL? (this is not a critic but a question) C/C++ for speed and Perl for > convenience. > > Hi, Didier The use of C is certainly on the table. It may well be that we end up with a C library, and an API that we describe using a header file, and then run h2xs or SWIG to produce Perl and Tcl and, yes, (shudder... :-)) Python interfaces. So the option would be there for someone to use C directly, also. Java is definitely the close second implementation option to Perl+C. I have a personal bias against C++, but I'm trying to solve a problem and if someone wishes to become involved and presents a solution using C++, it will be considered. There are currently 5 people who are interested in doing this thing, and I think we are at the point where we are not locked into using this language or that language. I'm glad you mentioned "speed". That is really the whole point of this exercise. We have identified a number of cases where one has N documents, where the business case also makes it logical that the individual documents be XML marked-up. Brute-force search is insufficiently speedy, and we want the ability to construct a derivative document that, based on search parameters, allows the application to use a search engine method or function with an *optional* parameter, namely the name of the "index". I use the term "index" with reservations, as sometimes the derivative document may act exactly like an "index", and perhaps sometimes it will not. But the desired end result is that you get your list of files much faster than if you had no special knowledge of the document collection. It stands to reason that we want the API to be attractive to search engine writers. *We* - I mean the people involved - have real applications that require search, and some of us _are_ search engine writers, so to speak, but the intent of this project is to not write a universal search engine, but rather to devise a set of functions that can be used to examine a group of XML files based on guidance, and distill the knowledge imparted by the markup into a summary. This summary can then be used by a search engine. This is all pretty wordy stuff, and I don't mind admitting that I'm putting this whole idea out there so people can say what they think about it. I guess what it all boils down to is something like this: use XML::Index; # assemble a list of filenames or filehandles ... # construct the index. $parameters is a hash of tag descriptions or something similar (this is notional) $index = XML::Index->build_index($parameters, @xml_files); # conduct a typical search using a typical search engine @xml_files = XML::Search_Engine->pick($search_params, [ $index ]); __END__ The [] around the $index is not there to make that an anonymous array ref but rather to indicate that the use of an index is optional. *If* that argument is present then the search engine writer uses the index API to use the index. Other thought: an index may be a prebuilt XML document which is nothing but a list of XML Links. OTOH, it may be nothing of the sort - it may be a binary structure. In other words, this is what we are trying to figure out. Thanks for your comments, Didier. I await others. :-) Arved xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edz at bsn.com Sat May 22 20:32:01 1999 From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: from "Arved Sandstrom" at May 22, 99 02:52:57 am Message-ID: <199905221835.UAA14572@shirley> > > Hi, all > > There is a modest effort being assembled to look at this prototypical > problem: > > PROBLEM - multitudes of XML documents. The collection is not necessarily > static, but if dynamic only incrementally so. The business case that would > apply is that it makes sense to markup the original documents using XML; > it also makes sense to search a file which is a description of the > document collection rather than the whole document collection. The > derivative file is the "index" - we are not assuming that it itself need > be XML. Am I missing something. What is the difference between your "vision" and that of, for examples, GILS--- which assign a metalevel document, so-called information locator, to a resource? See http://www.gils.net/locator.html > > I am choosing my language carefully as there seems to be an equal mixture > of enthusiasm and coolness displayed towards an XML document collection > indexing scheme. The fact of the matter is that so far we have identified In the ASF for GILS (which also defined a distributed gathering concept) see http://asf.gils.net/framework.html > a number of problems which are amenable to assisted search. We are not > particularly concerned, at this point, in breaking any new ground in XML - > rather, this is a project designed to address a subset of XML "usage" > problems. Or are you thinking (trying to understand the problem) of something like a new take on DC so gathers can create their own synthetic locator records? Or naming conventions? See http://www.gils.net/naming.html > > Although I have announced this project on the perl-xml list, and it will > concentrate on Perl, with and without XS, there is no reason that Java > and/or C/C++ viewpoints are not welcome. We are primarily interested in > exploring issues pertaining to the construction of a file that describes a > collection of XML documents in a succinct fashion, most likely with a > moderate to high degree of application specificity - i.e. there may not be > a lot of defaults that make sense. Keeping to GILS: http://asf.gils.net/semantic-map.html (following an ISO 11179 Metamodel) to connect crawlers with compliant search engines..... > > We also wish to supply a useful API that search engine writers can use. So is the project about designing a common development API for search engines? Or a way for metasearch engines to interoperate with one-another (such as GILS/ASF)? Since I appear to be totally confused (and, as often, intrigued) a starting point might be to, if possible, clarify the objectives and goals (the problem is clear) to explore common ground. -- ______________________ Edward C. Zimmermann Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca Sat May 22 20:52:22 1999 From: Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca (Arved Sandstrom) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: <199905221835.UAA14572@shirley> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 May 1999, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > Since I appear to be totally confused (and, as often, intrigued) a starting point > might be to, if possible, clarify the objectives and goals (the problem is clear) > to explore common ground. > That is the stage we are at. I have this gut feeling that we need to define what it means to have a search engine operate on let's say 100,00 documents marked up using XML, and what are the situations where it might make more sense to search a file which describes that collection. Your best contribution would be to describe a business problem and tell us how you like to solve it. Arved xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From abrahams at acm.org Sat May 22 21:59:05 1999 From: abrahams at acm.org (abrahams@acm.org) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Omitted selector in CSS2 rulesets Message-ID: <199905222001.QAA00433@pleurotus.local> The core syntax of CSS2 (Sec. 4.1.1 of the spec) specifies that the selector in a ruleset is optional. The syntax in Appendix D says the same thing, but more elaborately. Can anyone explain the rationale behind making the selector optional, or what the effect is of a ruleset without a selector? Thanks. Paul Abrahams xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edz at bsn.com Sat May 22 22:11:55 1999 From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: from "Arved Sandstrom" at May 22, 99 03:51:53 pm Message-ID: <199905222016.WAA14780@shirley> > > On Sat, 22 May 1999, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > > > > Since I appear to be totally confused (and, as often, intrigued) a starting point > > might be to, if possible, clarify the objectives and goals (the problem is clear) > > to explore common ground. > > > That is the stage we are at. I have this gut feeling that we need to > define what it means to have a search engine operate on let's say 100,00 > documents marked up using XML, and what are the situations where it might > make more sense to search a file which describes that collection. 100K documents is not a problem. Even on consumer PC hardware a modestly performant fulltext engine can handle typical queries on such a small collection in fractions of a second. The problem is more (beyond quantity) that information resources (XML, HTML or whatever) are not always static but dynamic. That's, above all, one of the fundamental flaws in the brute-force spider/crawl approaches followed by the major "Internet Engines" (beyond the impact on bandwidth, the half-life of data, and all the other significant shortcommings). > > Your best contribution would be to describe a business problem and tell us > how you like to solve it. Different problems, different methods, different tools. Lets turn the tables, since I'm the confused soul, can you explain a bussiness problem and tell us how you might plan to "solve it".... > > Arved > > > -- ______________________ Edward C. Zimmermann Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun May 23 03:19:06 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <199905221638.MAA28616@chmls06.mediaone.net> References: <199905221638.MAA28616@chmls06.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <14151.22128.44984.14202@localhost.localdomain> Charles Reitzel writes: > From: David Megginson > >There can still, of course, be benefits to standardizing > >(especially if there are OTS software components available), but > >those benefits are proportional only to the number of existing > >scripts or document types -- XSL will bring exactly the same > >benefit for 1,000 pages as it will for 1,000,000 pages, assuming > >the same number of processes and document types. > > The same argument applies, of course, to XML, SGML, TCP/IP or any > standard. The need for standards is inversely proportional to the > scale of the job. Not exactly -- the benefit of standardising the document format (XML, SGML, etc.) is directly proportional to the amount of documentation, while the benefit of standardising the processing methods is proportional only to the number of processing tasks. That means that, for typical enterprise systems, there is a very big bang from choosing a standard document format like XML, but only a small pop from choosing a standard processing format like XSL. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tgraham at mulberrytech.com Sun May 23 05:24:27 1999 From: tgraham at mulberrytech.com (Tony Graham) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <14151.22128.44984.14202@localhost.localdomain> References: <199905221638.MAA28616@chmls06.mediaone.net> <14151.22128.44984.14202@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14151.29840.390000.899114@menteith.com> At 22 May 1999 21:18 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > Charles Reitzel writes: > > The same argument applies, of course, to XML, SGML, TCP/IP or any > > standard. The need for standards is inversely proportional to the > > scale of the job. > > Not exactly -- the benefit of standardising the document format (XML, > SGML, etc.) is directly proportional to the amount of documentation, Since we're inventing equations, surely the benefit is proportional to the amount of documentation to the power of the number of different output formats or other uses you generate from the document format. > while the benefit of standardising the processing methods is > proportional only to the number of processing tasks. That means that, > for typical enterprise systems, there is a very big bang from choosing > a standard document format like XML, but only a small pop from > choosing a standard processing format like XSL. It seems to me that the processing benefit depends on how much you do with the document format. See previous equation. If you can do multiple things with one processing format, you get an exponential increase in benefit. If you need multiple document formats or multiple processing formats, you get a linear increase in benefit for multiple outputs. What a way to spend Saturday night: making up formulas of dubious merit! Regards, Tony Graham ====================================================================== Tony Graham mailto:tgraham@mulberrytech.com Mulberry Technologies, Inc. http://www.mulberrytech.com 17 West Jefferson Street Direct Phone: 301/315-9632 Suite 207 Phone: 301/315-9631 Rockville, MD 20850 Fax: 301/315-8285 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Mulberry Technologies: A Consultancy Specializing in SGML and XML ====================================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Sun May 23 05:58:14 1999 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL In-Reply-To: <37457D9D.FC29DA82@prescod.net> References: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EE9C@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> <14149.25509.807578.296195@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <4.1.19990523135204.03226aa0@mail.steptwo.com.au> At 01:37 22/05/1999 , Paul Prescod wrote: | I think that it is worth noting that most of the people who are in the | "XSL camp" are people are thoroughly familiar with scripting languages. | The reverse is not true. We have tried both and found the XSL way to be | more convenient. There is no programming language that quite captures | XSL's optimized mix of "polymorphic dispatch", pattern matching and | convenient template description. What I'm keeping an interested eye on is the process of "retiring" specifications. There are so many X*L specifications, recommendations, and notes at the moment, most must die in due course as a part of a process of natural selection. I think we will most likely end up with only a handful of widely-used standards, with the rest consigned to the annals of history. Will XSL be one of the sucesssful standards? I don't know. What I can say is that personally I use Omnimark (which is now free for all) for this sort of work, and I'm very happy with it. Looking at the expressiveness of XSL, I have doubts. But I don't claim to be representative of any cross-section of the XML community. Just an interested observer, and a practical implementer. Cheers, James ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Sun May 23 06:39:03 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL References: <3.0.32.19990520183712.0123aae0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3747862B.FAABE3DA@pacbell.net> Hmm, I see a benefit to having a pattern-matching (XSL-T style) way to express rendering policies. While at the same time, I can acknowledge that it's got real limitations with respect to a class of complex operations ... where a "normal" programming language (Java, not JavaScript!) seems needed. True, rule based programming is not for everyone; I paid my dues with Prolog, I've observed the phenomonon. Neither is JavaScript, or any other programming language. How may folk programmed TROFF macros effectively? How many people trust "Word BASIC" to be anything more than a virus carrier? Re David Megginson's useful bang-for-buck observation, maybe I shouldn't worry as much since I think in $US (just kidding :-) but all the same, that's an excellent point. No matter how good XSL is, it just won't be the only solution, since the economics can't force that approach. "XSL Sucks Less" for many folk, and particularly for those who must work in CSS-less worlds, but some programmers will prefer 100% Pure JavaScript style sheets (i.e. the "(JavaScript +) XML + DOM + CSS" approach of Leventhal) rather than balancing declarative and procedural components. There's also flamage about the "XSL-FO" part of the spec, and if the two criticisms I've seen about it (Hakon Lie, and Michael Leventhal) capture the essence of the "anti-" camp, they've failed utterly to convince me there's a problem beyond stepping on toes of some CSS advocates, who deny use of *ML outside of browsers. To be blunt, the "paperless office" won't happen until we all can work on-line with the ease we can browse/markup/... paper, which could well be never! Until then tools need to be aiming to unify the formatting models. Like XSL-FO, but not like CSS. As with all tools (say, HTML :-) FOs can be abused; use != abuse. - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun May 23 09:09:10 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors Message-ID: <020301bea4ea$577e4c70$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> David Megginson wrote: >Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > > > W3C features are different in two important respects. First, these > > are features one _must_ use to comply with "official standards". > >Actually, that's not the case. W3C standards may be interdependent, >but they are not a package deal -- for example, I can use XML with a >format other than RDF for exchanging metadata (and in the future, RDF >may use serialization formats other than XML). I can use Perl, Java, >Python, DSSSL, or or what-have-you to transform or render XML >documents without becoming in any way non-conformant. I can look at >XML documents through any API (though SAX and the DOM are good for >general-purpose work), and I can set up linking any way I want. I didn't say there was no alternative to the W3C "official standards". It is just that they are, well, "the" standards for doing some things. Nobody stops you from having your own namespace mechanism either. Does that mean that SAX2 should omit the namespace feature? And at any rate, this is besides the point. The fact remains that even if no one is forced to use W3C recommendations, they are very important to the XML processing community. To be able to work with more then one SAX2 parser means there should be an agreed way to request these features. Given that neither w3.org nor xml.org will specify these features, who is left? Another point - the "core" SAX2 specs already define features for some W3C recommendations (e.g., namespaces). This would seriously discourage people from accepting W3C features from other agencies (except, of course, from the W3C itself), since it is reasonable to assume this is xml.org "turf". On the other hand, it seems as though there's a selection process here - namespaces are in, XLinks are out; DTD validation is in, XSLT processing is out. Is there a reason for this selection - that is, can you define the xml.org "turf" such a way that given a spec for something we'd know in advance whether it belongs in the SAX2 "core" or not? Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sun May 23 12:56:54 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors In-Reply-To: <020301bea4ea$577e4c70$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> References: <020301bea4ea$577e4c70$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> Message-ID: <14151.56680.656953.299381@localhost.localdomain> Oren Ben-Kiki writes: >Is there a reason for this selection - that is, can you define the >xml.org "turf" such a way that given a spec for something we'd know >in advance whether it belongs in the SAX2 "core" or not? Support for a spec other than XML belongs in the core if there are many existing dependencies on it. Namespaces, for example, are very closely coupled with XML 1.0, and many other specs and implementations build on top of XML+Namespaces rather than just on XML, including RDF (and PICS, etc.), XHTML, and XSL; other specs, such as XML Schemas, Infoset, and DOM, either support or are soon to support Namespaces. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From oren at capella.co.il Sun May 23 13:30:32 1999 From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: SAX2 and XSLT processors Message-ID: <038301bea50e$dd51e6d0$5402a8c0@oren.capella.co.il> David Megginson wrote: >Oren Ben-Kiki writes: > >Is there a reason for this selection - that is, can you define the > >xml.org "turf" such a way that given a spec for something we'd know > >in advance whether it belongs in the SAX2 "core" or not? > >Support for a spec other than XML belongs in the core if there are >many existing dependencies on it. By this I gather you mean many other specs depending on it - as opposed to applications? I suppose that's a consistent measure. It is however an unstable one. Suppose the W3C will release dependent specs in the future? Of course that would be a problem only if someone else specifies XSLT features in the meanwhile, which I find unlikely. Note that using the number of applications using the feature is also unstable - we hope, for example, that the number of XSLT applications will be growing. Still, this (number of applications) makes more sense to me then using the number of specs. At any rate, either of these measures means we won't see plug-and-play XSLT processors for a long while. Well, if nobody else is worried about being able to switch processors, who am I to complain? After all I'll be getting paid for writing the wrappers for each new relevant XSLT processor in the mean while. Share & Enjoy, Oren Ben-Kiki xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sun May 23 16:23:50 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:16 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values In-Reply-To: <19990521191101.10757.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> References: <19990521191101.10757.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> Message-ID: * Mallikarjuna Sangappa | | Is it possible to specify numbers as attribute values in a XML | DTD. If so let me know. Thanks in advance. There are two main answers to this: - with a DTD: not really. You can give it the type NMTOKEN, and then write software to check it yourself. - with an XML schema: yes. XML schemas have number, integer, decimal and real data types. With a schema you can also constrain the range. Note that XML schemas are currently in their first working draft, which means that they _will_ change. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Sun May 23 16:35:15 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> Well, I read the articles on XML.com, and I've read all the arguments here. I'm still pretty much an outsider on all this, and I've *never* programmed in any language who's name ends in "SL" so take this for what it's worth: - Declarative programming languages, and by this I mean rule-based, production-based, then-if, backward chaining, expert-system, like that, take a *LOT* of getting used to. That does not mean they are *bad*. One you have the epiphanal ah-ha moment, they can be a remarkably expressive and easy thing to use. I have seen some amazing work done in very few lines of code in the AI field (I'm thinking, specifically, of the Soar system out of CMU, UofM [Laird], and ISI [Rosenbloom]). - To those of us who have thought forward-chaining, procedurally since our epoch as programmers, it is hard to see production systems as anything but black magic. I used to have this bias myself, until a really smart guy showed me how forward and backward chaining systems can actually be transformed into one another, and therefore, it's really just a matter of taste. - A big part of the reason why you don't find tools like debuggers, packages, modules, etc., in production systems is because you don't need them. Production systems naturally solve big problems with small amounts of code. The lack of such tools is thus a specious argument. It's like saying it's hard to adjust the fuel/air mixture with a screw driver on an engine with no carburator. Yes, I suppose it is. And why would you need to do that, exactly? - It is often argued by the expert systems guys that production-based rule systems (or "case based reasoning") is *more* intuitive than forward-chaining, procedural, algol-derivative programming. The theory is that ordinary experts can write rules, but only programmers can write algorithms. I have no idea if this is true, I've never seen any evidence that it is, but it is an article of faith in that community, and might help to explain why the XSL camp seems to have a lot of "religion" about ease of use. - The argument that a new standard is not needed because existing standards can do the same job is specious. Is TCP unnecessary because you could have written your own windowing and framing code on plain old IP? (Yeah, I know I'm doing historical revision here, and TCP actually came before IP, but pretend you don't know that, so you can see my point.) [I'm basically making the same argument someone else did earlier about SQL vs assembly language.] - The W3C seems a little schizophrenic in their treatment of what is worthy of standardization. There is the IETF model: take a collection of working solutions, resolve the differences, and standardize the results. There is the US Dept of Defense model: invent a brand new thing, declare it a standard, mandate it's use, then implement it. XML is an example of the IETF model: they took a good, working, thing (SGML) and tidied it up. ECMA-Script is another good example of the IETF model. From my viewpoint, XSL looks like an example of the USDoD approach. Am I missing some history here? When a detractor can say, with a straight face, that he doubts the standard can actually be implemented, that's usually a sign that the standard is *way* out in front of the community, and needs more baking. I lived in the USDoD standards world for a long, long time, and I know that their process is completely incapable of producing anything with any value whatsoever. I have also dabbled in the IETF standards world, and have been uniformly impressed at how their process lets the cream rise to the top. Since the W3C is all about the Internet, why does it have a process separate from that of the IETF? I dont' get that. Can someone explain that to me? Does it have to do with paper documents or something? So my take on the argument, in a nutshell: Somebody needs to go implement XSL, develop some great apps using it, in the process fix everything which is wrong with it, and then offer it up as a standard. Standards bodies should be editors, not authors. -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Sun May 23 22:02:14 1999 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: searching for search Message-ID: <004b01bea557$0e4c6ce0$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Regarding the recent "Indexing XML Document Collections" thread... I've been doing some breadth-first search for indexing/query technology, and here is a summary of what i've learned. I'm posting this because I'm interested in the area but don't have the time to investigate all these, and it seems like there are some real experts on this list. I'm interested in these questions: - in general, why would I pick one of these over another (i.e. boolean query vs. structured query; scalability in size or requests; pluggable format drivers for source data; stemming and concept support; etc.) - in general, what are the features that push a technology into another level of complexity and why (i.e. what is so hard here?) - specifically, what are the characteristics of each of these in performance/reliability/features (personal experience from non-vendors and public benchmarks are of course preferred, but vendor claims might be of interest too) - can i safely ignore the non open source ones without giving up capabilities - if all i wanted to do was boolean search on field values with no stemming/concept support, then regardless of how i did the indexing, what is wrong with using standard b-trees and/or just putting the index data in a sql db? indexing/query technologies --------------------------- what: sgrep url: http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/~jjaakkol/sgrep.html license: GPL comment: does structured document grep, with an indexing phase. what: Xtract url: http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/Xtract/ license: GPL comment: another xml grep; more XQL-like. no indexing. what: swish (Simple Web Indexing System for Humans) url: http://www.directive.com/swish.htm license: sort of free comment: see swish-e what: swish-e (swish-enhanced) url: http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/SWISH-E/ license: GPL comment: focused specifically on web site indexing. what: MG (managing gigabytes) url: http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au/mg/intro/about_mg.html license: GPL comment: based on book: http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/mg. commercial version is SIM: http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au what: wais and freeWAIS and freewais-sf/SFgate url: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/wais-faq/freeWAIS-sf/index.html comment: now supplanted by Isearch/Isite. what: Isearch url: http://www.etymon.com/Isearch license: non-copyleft free. comment: Isearch is behind dmoz/newhoo (http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28964,00.html?st.cn.News.today.ne) what: dig or "ht://dig" url: http://www.htdig.org/ license: GPL what: glimpse url: http://glimpse.cs.arizona.edu/ license: non-commercial use, open source. commercial: Readware http://www.readware.com/products.htm Excalibur RetrievalWare http://www.excalib.com/ verity http://www.verity.com oracle intermedia http://www.oracle.com fulcrum http://www.fulcrum.com (now pcdocs) OpenText http://www.opentext.com/ (soon to be pcdocs?) SIM: http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au no cost, but object code only: excite for web servers http://www.excite.com/navigate/ PLS http://www.pls.com/ acquired by AOL. GMD-IPSI XQL http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/. thunderstone http://www.thunderstone.com/. webinator is no cost, object code only. "XML Servers" (which can mean anything) bluestone http://www.bluestone.com/ odi excelon http://www.odi.com/ softwareag tamino http://www.softwareag.com/tamino/default.htm poet cms http://www.poet.com/ oracle ifs, dbweb, etc. http://www.oracle.com query/search languages and standards ------------------------------------- Z39.50-1995 http://lcweb.loc.gov/z3950/agency aka ISO 23950 ; formerly ISO 10162 and ISO 10163. basically the U.S. started branching the original ISO standard, and now they lead the ISO standard. WAIS was based on the first version Z39.50-1988. see also http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1729.html for history see http://mirrored.ukoln.ac.uk/lis-journals/dlib/dlib/dlib/april97/04lynch.html and http://slis6000.slis.uwo.ca/~jxerri/index.html GILS (government information locator service) http://www.gils.net/locator.html for technology, just aggregates other projects (uses Isearch, htdig, etc.). at a standards level, it subsets Z39.50 and articulates some 150 specific attributes/elements for semantics, in the "GILS Profile" http://www.gils.net/prof_v2.html [there, i've now saved you from reading a horrific amount of verbiage.] STARTS http://www-db.stanford.edu/~gravano/starts.html a standardization effort like GILS. subsets Z39.50. complementary (sort of) to publication/metadata/robots.txt standards like dublin/rdf. SDQL (structured document query language) DSSSL thing. http://www.jclark.com/dsssl/sgml95/sdql.html, http://www.jclark.com/dsssl/IS/dsssl85.htm SOIF (Summary Object Interchange Format) first made up by Harvest in 1994. CIP (Common Indexing Protocol) output of the moribund ietf FIND working group XQL and XML-QL and a gazillion more http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp.html OQL http://www.odmg.org/standard/odmgbookextract.htm#Chapter 4 Search UI --------- what: WWWWAIS url: http://riceinfo.rice.edu/sw/swish/patches/ comment: web interface to WAIS and SWISH search engines what: webglimpse url: http://donkey.cs.arizona.edu/webglimpse/ comment: web interface what: HURL (Hypertext Usenet Reader & Linker) url: http://impressive.net/software/hurl license: will be free software. comment: uses glimpse underneath Gathering/Spidering ------------------- what: harvest url: http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/harvest/ comment: just does the spidering; the index is with glimpse notes:: verity etc. could be used instead of glimpse. does provide a "Broker" cgi around the indexer. maps SGML to "SOIF". :: Papers/Reading on IR -------------------- ACM SIGIR http://www.acm.org/sigir/ news:comp.infosystems.search xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edz at bsn.com Sun May 23 23:27:07 1999 From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: searching for search In-Reply-To: <004b01bea557$0e4c6ce0$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> from "Mark D. Anderson" at May 23, 99 01:00:42 pm Message-ID: <199905232131.XAA16272@shirley> > > Regarding the recent "Indexing XML Document Collections" thread... > > I've been doing some breadth-first search for indexing/query > technology, and here is a summary of what i've learned. > I'm posting this because I'm interested in the area but don't > have the time to investigate all these, and it seems like > there are some real experts on this list. > > I'm interested in these questions: > > - in general, why would I pick one of these over another > (i.e. boolean query vs. structured query; scalability in size > or requests; pluggable format drivers for source data; > stemming and concept support; etc.) Why pick one over the other? Well, I'd forget about stemming and concept support since both just sound good on paper but create more noise (except in some special conditions), IMHO, than anything else.... > > - in general, what are the features that push a technology > into another level of complexity and why (i.e. what is so > hard here?) Designing fulltext engines is not difficult :-) > > - specifically, what are the characteristics of each of > these in performance/reliability/features (personal experience > from non-vendors and public benchmarks are of course preferred, > but vendor claims might be of interest too) > > - can i safely ignore the non open source ones without giving > up capabilities What do you mean (I seem to be on a roll at not understanding questions these days)? > > - if all i wanted to do was boolean search on field values with > no stemming/concept support, then regardless of how i did the > indexing, what is wrong with using standard b-trees and/or just > putting the index data in a sql db? To make the answer short: depends upon what you want to do. > > > indexing/query technologies > --------------------------- > > what: Isearch > url: http://www.etymon.com/Isearch > license: non-copyleft free. > comment: Isearch is behind dmoz/newhoo (http://www.news.com/News/Item/0,4,28964,00.html?st.cn.News.today.ne) Well... Its more like DMOZ/NewHoo uses public Isearch (as well as many other sites). > > what: dig or "ht://dig" > url: http://www.htdig.org/ > license: GPL > > what: glimpse > url: http://glimpse.cs.arizona.edu/ > license: non-commercial use, open source. > > commercial: > Readware http://www.readware.com/products.htm > Excalibur RetrievalWare http://www.excalib.com/ > verity http://www.verity.com > oracle intermedia http://www.oracle.com > fulcrum http://www.fulcrum.com (now pcdocs) > OpenText http://www.opentext.com/ (soon to be pcdocs?) Actually OpenText was trying to acquire PCDOCS not the other way around.... And PCDOCS/Fulcrum goes to Hummingbird... > SIM: http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au We too support XML http://www.bsn.com/Z39.50 There are, of course, *many* more products out (and many that support XML and Z39.50 as well). > > > query/search languages and standards > ------------------------------------- > > Z39.50-1995 http://lcweb.loc.gov/z3950/agency > aka ISO 23950 ; formerly ISO 10162 and ISO 10163. > basically the U.S. started branching the original ISO standard, and now they lead the ISO standard. > WAIS was based on the first version Z39.50-1988. > see also http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1729.html > for history see http://mirrored.ukoln.ac.uk/lis-journals/dlib/dlib/dlib/april97/04lynch.html and > http://slis6000.slis.uwo.ca/~jxerri/index.html > > GILS (government information locator service) http://www.gils.net/locator.html > for technology, just aggregates other projects (uses Isearch, htdig, etc.). > at a standards level, it subsets Z39.50 and articulates some 150 specific attributes/elements for semantics, > in the "GILS Profile" http://www.gils.net/prof_v2.html > [there, i've now saved you from reading a horrific amount of verbiage.] Actually not. You are not talking here about GILS but about the ASF freeware... ASF is a framework for GILS but its more than just about GILS but distributed S/R. Its something like Z39.50 + Whois++ + Gathering +. The freeware was a mish-mash but won't talk about that :-) If ones also talking about distributed search one might want to refer to the work in the TF-CHIC at Terena (http://www.terena.nl/task-forces/tf-chic/). In this context might also want to talk about the work on XER (XML Encoding) of Z39.50 and IETF's WebDAV..... > > STARTS http://www-db.stanford.edu/~gravano/starts.html > a standardization effort like GILS. subsets Z39.50. > complementary (sort of) to publication/metadata/robots.txt standards like dublin/rdf. No... But.... Acutally STARTS was proposed to compete with Z39.50 under the notion that "Z39.50 is too complicated". The counter from the ZIG was ZSTARTS... > > SDQL (structured document query language) > DSSSL thing. http://www.jclark.com/dsssl/sgml95/sdql.html, http://www.jclark.com/dsssl/IS/dsssl85.htm > > SOIF (Summary Object Interchange Format) > first made up by Harvest in 1994. SOIF is not a query/search language or protocol but as the name says an "interchange format". There are many of these around including the IAFA recs which has taken on a new lease on life within ROADS (http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/roads/).. This all belongs under the chapter "Resource Discovery and Metadata"... > > CIP (Common Indexing Protocol) > output of the moribund ietf FIND working group > > XQL and XML-QL and a gazillion more http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp.html > > OQL http://www.odmg.org/standard/odmgbookextract.htm#Chapter 4 > > -- ______________________ Edward C. Zimmermann Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Mon May 24 01:15:53 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: Regarding Strategy Message-ID: <000401bea572$a835b760$0a000a0a@csg> Greetings... I've just subscribed and I've found the ongoing thread interesting as it pointed to GILS which I spent much of last night perusing thanks to the time Zimmerman has put forth herein. Oddly, for such a widely adopted family of techniques the articles seem to have died out sometime in late 1997. Does this portend doom for GILS with respect to generalized acceptance in the commercialized private sector? My calls to prospective customers to design and host their web sites almost always includes the prospect asking "what can the internet do for my business locally". That being right before they say "no" and then hang up on me ;-) I'd like to take a shot at creating a regional site that will provide a search & classification interface and would like some advice regarding the wisdom of creating such a 'yellow pages' type of site when everybody seems glued to what I perceive to be the fallacy of the 'search engines' and the 'domain name', both of which provide nominal value and little else when considering the artificially high cost of ownership which in my opinion is only getting worse. I'd be interested in technique discussions in this regard, specifically regarding my study of XML and its application for this type of site that I am preparing to redesign for the umpteenth time. I've been planning to use MS SQLServer and Allaire's Cold Fusion. -- Regards Clinton Gallagher Chief Public Information Officer, MetroMilwaukee.com TEL (414) 774-1562 FAX (414) 774-1562 NET cpio@metromilwaukee.com URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edz at bsn.com Mon May 24 02:39:22 1999 From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Re: Regarding Strategy In-Reply-To: <000401bea572$a835b760$0a000a0a@csg> from "WorldNet" at May 23, 99 06:19:07 pm Message-ID: <199905240044.CAA16563@shirley> > > Greetings... > > I've just subscribed and I've found the ongoing thread interesting as it > pointed to GILS which I spent much of last night perusing thanks to the time > Zimmerman has put forth herein. Oddly, for such a widely adopted family of > techniques the articles seem to have died out sometime in late 1997. Does GILS is far from dead.. Beyond the legal requirements of Fed GILS, FIPS 192-1 (in a few contexts including the E-FOIA, Public Law 104-231, House Bill 3802) more and more State Governments have passed GILS bills and efforts within the US National Spatial Infrastructure (NSDA), Federal Geographic Data Committe (FGDC), in particular the Geospatial Data Clearinghouse have been gathering international momentum. GILS has taken on International scope not just in the context of the G7 Global Information Locator Service but there are some interesting discussions in many countries including the EU... > this portend doom for GILS with respect to generalized acceptance in the > commercialized private sector? Firstly one need talk about Z39.50 since GILS is based upon that S/R protocol. The "mainstream"? Well among mainstream librarians its been a slow start but these days Z39.50 is accepted as a "must". Museums have too joined the fold (see the MCN, which btw. uses SGML). While a more widespread adoption of Z39.50 been slow going (there are institutional reasons for this) its defintely far from in either decline or lack of a commercialized private sector. There are other initiatives in the pipeline (including from Redmond) to bring things more and more into the mainstream... If one is talking of the concept of resource discovery and metadata there is defintely a mainstream trend... > > My calls to prospective customers to design and host their web sites almost > always includes the prospect asking "what can the internet do for my > business locally". That being right before they say "no" and then hang up on > me ;-) In our ISP business unit we have never gotten that question :-) > > I'd like to take a shot at creating a regional site that will provide a > search & classification interface and would like some advice regarding the > wisdom of creating such a 'yellow pages' type of site when everybody seems > glued to what I perceive to be the fallacy of the 'search engines' and the > 'domain name', both of which provide nominal value and little else when > considering the artificially high cost of ownership which in my opinion is > only getting worse. Yes. I think the information locator (records to resources) model does make the most sense--- but again I would :-) The first question, afterall, should be "who has what I'm looking for"..... > > I'd be interested in technique discussions in this regard, specifically > regarding my study of XML and its application for this type of site that I The "value" of XML comes from interoperable exchange--- its also quite easy (still, despite increased wakyness) to develop around. > am preparing to redesign for the umpteenth time. I've been planning to use > MS SQLServer and Allaire's Cold Fusion. Why? If I was to do such a site I'd of course use... :-) > > -- Regards > Clinton Gallagher > Chief Public Information Officer, MetroMilwaukee.com > TEL (414) 774-1562 > FAX (414) 774-1562 > NET cpio@metromilwaukee.com > URL http://www.metromilwaukee.com > > > > -- ______________________ Edward C. Zimmermann Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au Mon May 24 04:07:34 1999 From: marcelo at mds.rmit.edu.au (Marcelo Cantos) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: searching for search In-Reply-To: <199905232131.XAA16272@shirley>; from Edward C. Zimmermann on Sun, May 23, 1999 at 11:31:43PM +0200 References: <004b01bea557$0e4c6ce0$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> <199905232131.XAA16272@shirley> Message-ID: <19990524120709.B20061@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 11:31:43PM +0200, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > - in general, what are the features that push a technology > > into another level of complexity and why (i.e. what is so > > hard here?) > Designing fulltext engines is not difficult :-) Making them updateable, small and fast is. Full structure indexing, in particular, is easy in principle but quite awkward to make efficient and small in a dynamic update environment. phrase querying is another that has to be done carefully to simultaneously offer speed while avoiding space blowouts. It is quite common for engines to generate indexes that are two to ten times the size of the data. Furthermore, this is generally considered acceptable (SIM rarely goes over half the size of the data -- we haven't implemented full structure or phrase yet, but have done some research to establish the cost; structure indexes should be minimal and efficient phrase indexes should roughly double our current index size). Here is a list of features that have the potential to push complexity (the list is neither comprehensive, nor in any particular order): * Size minimisation * Large collections (e.g. exceeding 2 or 4 GB can pose unique problems that are non-trivial to solve) * Performance * Interactive updates * Full-structure querying * Phrase querying * Transactions * Incremental backups (important for large collections) * Multi-database queries * Multi-database ranked/sorted queries * Multi-server queries * Multi-server ranked/sorted queries * Multi-server multi-vendor queries * Multi-server multi-vendor ranked queries (I list the various multi-database options separately because each of them introduces new and quite different issues, though some of the issues may only arise in the context of Z39.50, with which we deal.) > > - specifically, what are the characteristics of each of > > these in performance/reliability/features (personal experience > > from non-vendors and public benchmarks are of course preferred, > > but vendor claims might be of interest too) > > > > - can i safely ignore the non open source ones without giving > > up capabilities > What do you mean (I seem to be on a roll at not understanding > questions these days)? Possibly the triple negative (_ignore_, _non_, _without_) contributed in this case. :-) > > - if all i wanted to do was boolean search on field values with > > no stemming/concept support, then regardless of how i did the > > indexing, what is wrong with using standard b-trees and/or just > > putting the index data in a sql db? > To make the answer short: depends upon what you want to do. A slightly longer answer is, if you have 100GB of data that you want to index in an SQL database then you'd better grab a terabyte of hard disk and be prepared to wait a LONG time for your queries to come back to you. Cheers, Marcelo -- http://www.simdb.com/~marcelo/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Mon May 24 06:50:45 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: examples illustrating SAX parser expat Message-ID: hi all, i need some examples , as to how to use the expat parser. thanks in advance Balaji Ranjan The ability to learn an ability from scratch is the ability u need to suceed. -- Anonymous xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon May 24 13:14:16 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections Message-ID: <009501bea5ce$8b95aa00$5bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> As a related comment, I have posted an open source phrase-index constructer, which does simple but useful indexing of XML documents, especially QAML ones. (It should work with any language which uses spaces, and where longer words are more interesting than shorter ones.) I would expect that any site that used it would want to tinker with it for their particular needs, and to be able to make best use of the particular document types in play. The code is OmniMark. http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/qaml-index.html I will be regenerating the examples later this week, for the various FAQs at the site. The current example (links now broken) is at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/faq-phrase-index.html The indexer would also be useful for anyone needing an automated start for making an index for a book. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 24 14:02:21 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> Message-ID: <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> Joshua E. Smith writes: [on XSL] > Am I missing some history here? When a detractor can say, with a > straight face, that he doubts the standard can actually be > implemented, that's usually a sign that the standard is *way* out > in front of the community, and needs more baking. XSL inherits from at least two major sources -- FOSIs, which are/were SGML instance-based stylesheets for typesetting SGML documents, specified by the USDoD; and DSSSL, which is/was a declarative Scheme-based language for transforming and formatting SGML documents, standardized by ISO. Both were implemented and used in production-grade systems (in the case of DSSSL, only *partly* implemented), and FOSIs were very heavily used through much of the 1990's. I don't think that anyone can say, with a straight face, that XSL *cannot* be implemented, though the flow objects will be a challenge (as with CSS, for that matter) -- the implementation process is fairly straight-forward, and there are already several implementations available (none is perfect, but that's to be expected when the spec itself is still unstable). In this regard, XSL is doing much better than many other W3C specs. The real question is what kind of market penetration XSL will have. I'll probably use it a lot for my personal work, because I'm used to that kind of programming and quite enjoy it; you may be right, though, that it's too far in front of the Web community -- even a brain-dead-simple thing like CSS1 is still having trouble catching on after several years, and XSL is at least two orders of magnitude more complex than CSS. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon May 24 14:02:50 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: XSL allows better automated program manipulation (Re: Questioning XSL) Message-ID: <00f101bea5d5$3f959fa0$5bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Brownell > "XSL Sucks Less" for many folk We need a stylesheet language whose interactions are clear enough that it is possible to cut and paste portions of the stylesheet along with portions of the document. Of course, you can take any language and parse it and figure out which pieces go with which, though this is often only in the context of a single instance: trying to do this in JavaScript seems a nightmare to me, and probably impossible. XSLT may make this problem tractable: like LISP (especially Scheme and DSSSL) it doesnt distinguish data and program syntactically, it is functional and side-effect-free, yet it is more-or-less declarative like CSS with the ability to name any level of structure. I think XSL's excitingness lies in this area more than any other: it gives a much better form to allow automated manipulation of stylesheets. XSL has a long way to go before it can compete with universal tools like OmniMark or Perl: it will need a lot better handling of input and output streams and data string manipulation: XSLT does not provide these and I doubt if XSLStyle will either. But OmniMark and Perl have side-effects and are not declarative (event-driven != declarative), so XSL does create a new kind of application. Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Mon May 24 14:33:29 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: XSL allows better automated program manipulation (Re: Questio ning XSL) Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A190C@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rick Jelliffe [SMTP:ricko@allette.com.au] > > > XSL has a long way to go before it can compete with universal tools like > OmniMark or Perl: it will need a lot better handling of input and output > streams and data string manipulation: XSLT does not provide these and I > doubt if XSLStyle will either. But OmniMark and Perl have side-effects > and are not declarative (event-driven != declarative), so XSL does > create a new kind of application. > > One thing to note is that you can build a declarative system in Perl's event driven XML parsing (xmerge does this), but you couldn't build perl in XSL :) I think a post to this list got lost - I sent the following last week: How about alternatives to XSL. Just some simple transforms. But with built in perl, kind of like embperl. Xmerge already allows selection from XML documents, but doesn't do ordering, or embedded perl, but I'm very interested in exploring adding this feature. Anyone interested can download XML::miniXQL at http://www.fastnetltd.ndirect.co.uk/Perl/XML-miniXQL-0.02.tar.gz (xmerge is part of the XML::miniXQL distribution) and you'll probably want to look at a real world example of usage - see my CV page on http://sergeant.org Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Mon May 24 14:49:51 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:17 2004 Subject: XSL allows better automated program manipulation (Re: Questio ning XSL) Message-ID: Well, other than CSS, can anything else handle the formatting aspects of XML? A lot of document authoring/management software companies are pushing the "don't use SGML, it's too hard to implement. Use XML." theory. And this is all well and good. But we are not as hard-wired a society as many would think. Many (most, probably) companies still turn out hard copy documentation for their users. Many people (myself included) can look at an online document, but will print it out to read it with any measure of scrutiny. If there is no formatting standard for XML, that leaves vendors free to implement their own "styles", which could end up causing a person to re-develop a stylesheet any time they want to try out/switch applications. IMHO, XSL is a great idea, conceptually, and through the process of review and comment, will eventually turn out to be one of the most widely accepted, and useful, standards of the whole body of WDs written to support XML (that is, if vendors follow through). > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Rick Jelliffe [SMTP:ricko@allette.com.au] > > > > > > XSL has a long way to go before it can compete with universal tools like > > OmniMark or Perl: it will need a lot better handling of input and output > > streams and data string manipulation: XSLT does not provide these and I > > doubt if XSLStyle will either. But OmniMark and Perl have side-effects > > and are not declarative (event-driven != declarative), so XSL does > > create a new kind of application xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon May 24 15:17:56 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <010001bea5df$c8062ad0$5bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: David Megginson >XSL inherits from at least two major sources -- FOSIs, which are/were >SGML instance-based stylesheets for typesetting SGML documents, >specified by the USDoD; and DSSSL, which is/was a declarative >Scheme-based language for transforming and formatting SGML documents, >standardized by ISO. I would say that XSL inherits from three major sources: surely calls for schemas to use element syntax have had some influence. The arguments that schemas will be easier to use and manipulate and read and treat as hypertext than some non-XML syntax can just as well be applied to transformation languages. (By the way, why isnt Michael Leventhal also saying that XSchema is a waste of time too: one can write DOM programs to do all that validation too!) > Both were implemented and used in >production-grade systems (in the case of DSSSL, only *partly* >implemented), and FOSIs were very heavily used through much of the >1990's. Dave has mentioned that DSSSL was only partly implemented, but it should be emphasized that this does not mean a failure in the DSSSL specification: for example, why on earth would James Clark's Jade implement Chinese vertical writing if RTF and MIF (i.e., his target outputs) do not support it. It is an ISO requirement to pay attention to internationalization; I know that some of the ISO WG8 saw DSSSL as an effort to gather and formalize knowledge about documents and document processing: ISO standards such as SGML, HyTime and DSSSL are not intended to be technologies (like Perl, perhaps) which are handy but which do not represent any theoretical or methodological gift to the world. They also function to raise the base-level of discussion by program designers about what is possible, what is needed, what is good, etc. It is quite like the CALS DTDs, where no-one implemented all the CALS tables model; however, vendors got together and made a common base-list of features they all would support: it raised the general capabilities of all. DSSSL came out of long discussions; the first DSSSL drafts used a non-LISP syntax, and (my understanding is) that adopting Scheme (LISP) gave the list-processing and functional power needed to get DSSSL going. There is a strong tradition in the text-processing world of using LISP: Interleaf, Cost. (11 years ago I co-wrote a C text processing tool for XML-ish SGML that used a little LISP for its scripting syntax; I found it worked fine.) >The real question is what kind of market penetration XSL will have. Then that is largely on of how well it is marketed, not the core technology! Rick Jelliffe xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Mon May 24 15:53:10 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: a schema validator-generator Message-ID: <000a01bea5e4$b36eeb70$5bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: francis >I think schema translation sounds like a good area - the application >doesn't need to run too fast, and, as you say, you will really explore >schemas and XSLT. I think it would be a big win if significant parts of XSchema could be implemented in XSLT: XSchema validation for free! For example, if we could take an XSchema and generate * a DTD for validatation of structures * an XSL validator (along the lines of Francis' paper) for more fiddly bits of structure There has been some discussion of how on XML-DEV recently of how to support "&" operator, if it is introduced in XSchema. I should point out that certain kinds of content models using "&" are trivial to validate using XSL: in particular content models which use only [&,|()?] but not [*+] (These are, I think, the kinds of models that Francis' examples of DCD use: http://www.redrice.com/ci/generatingXslValidators.html) Rick Jelliffe P.S. Anyone interested in other kinds of validation (i.e., not just validating element tree-structures) that are available using content-models (*not* the DTD syntax, *not* the DTD syntax, *not* the DTD syntax), I have made a simple introduction with a big fat diagram called "Validate This! Content Models on Different Targets" at http://www.ascc.net/xml/en/utf-8/OtherValid.html Anyone interested in how this idea might be implemented, see "XML Notation Schemas" http://www.ascc.net/~ricko/notation.htm xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Mon May 24 16:13:09 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: FOP 0.6.1 released: can take DOM Document Message-ID: <018901bea5ee$2b314000$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> I've just put up a new version of FOP. There is no functional difference from 0.6.0 as far as the XSL side of things goes. Rather, the way FOP is invoked has changed. It is now possible to: * Pass FOP a DOM Document rather than a filename. This makes it possible to embed FOP in other applications (such as XSLT engines and web servers) * Use any SAX parser, not just XP as before I'm really keen to find out if people are able to get FOP working with a DOM Document (I haven't had time to really test it yet). see http://www.jtauber.com/fop/ James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Mon May 24 16:46:01 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <010001bea5df$c8062ad0$5bf96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> Message-ID: <000e01bea5f3$eacb98c0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > Rick Jelliffe > (By the way, why isnt Michael Leventhal also saying that XSchema is a > waste of time too: one can write DOM programs to do all that validation > too!) Show me a released product with buggy XML parser that understands only 30% or 70% of a DTD. That is the situation with current CSS implementations. You simply cannot compare XSchema nor XLink/Xpointer to the debate about CSS and XSL. We do not have a linking specification for the web. Therefore we need one, which is why we are developing Xlink/XPointer. Developing XLink/XPointer is doing no harm. We have DTDs and we all know they are limited. But because we have good software that understands DTDs we have a good basis for developing something better. Developing XSchema is doing no harm. We already have CSS. What we do not have is a good implementation. Here XSL is doing harm - all the hype moved to XSL which is an important contributor to the fact that we have not seen complete CSS implementations. In an ideal world we would have unlimited resources and could create good CSS and XSL implementations at the same time. Alas, in the real world something has to suffer. Michael pointed out that CSS has suffered from XSL. But I believe XSL has also suffered from CSS. If we had good CSS implementations now, more energy could be moved to developing and implementing XSL. All the best, -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Mon May 24 16:50:58 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <000f01bea5f4$9dc88500$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> Heh, I have to correct myself and point out that we DO have a linking spec for the web. URL (or URI, if you like). The situation is the same as with DTDs: URLs are too limiting in their current form but we still have good implementations of them so it does no harm to develop XLink/XPointer. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 24 16:51:48 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: searching for search References: <004b01bea557$0e4c6ce0$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> <199905232131.XAA16272@shirley> <19990524120709.B20061@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> Message-ID: <37496749.43CC3FD8@locke.ccil.org> Marcelo Cantos wrote: > [E]fficient phrase indexes should roughly double our current index > size. Why so big? A phrase index should be the same as a word index with only a 4-byte word serial number in addition. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 24 16:57:15 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990524075528.01201750@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:20 PM 5/24/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >Dave has mentioned that DSSSL was only partly implemented, but it should >be emphasized that this does not mean a failure in the DSSSL >specification: I couldn't disagree more. A standard which goes unimplemented is not only a failed standard but actively damaging, as it weakens the arguments for standards-based development. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 24 17:12:38 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson wrote: [statement that XSL is "at least two orders of magnitude more complicated" than CSS1] Gak, what a thought. Can we really use tools that differ by a complexity of 100 from other tools? Consider the idea of a programming language 100 times simpler than C, or 100 times more complex than Standard C++. Can the mind really grasp such a thing? -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 24 17:14:25 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: searching for search Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990524081318.01219d70@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:50 AM 5/24/99 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >Why so big? A phrase index should be the same as a word index >with only a 4-byte word serial number in addition. Uh, there is more than one way to implement phrase indexing. Check out, for example, suffix arrays (Manber & someone). -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Mon May 24 17:33:44 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: Actually, If anyone has been following the discussions over the last month or so on the DSSSL mailing list, it is interesting to see that a number of people are wanting to begin updating the source for Jade. Mr. Clark has been very busy with XSL, and those who want more from Jade are taking it upon themselves to add features to Jade. I don't know if this has been blessed by James. But there are a lot of people who have a lot of faith in DSSSL and (I for one) hate to see it become "the standard that isn't". There are a number of posters who have built their own modules and scripts into Jade to meet whatever needs they had for it, and they have placed the source on a server to be checked out through WinCVS. This thread was pretty heated at times, and for as long and detailed as the postings were, it's obvious that there are quite a few people who support DSSSL and were disappointed by the lack of implementation by commercial software vendors. It is going to be interesting to see where this goes, not only for those who use SGML, but for XML as well. XSL can't handle both (although I am sure, as has been argued here, that it could with a fair amount of wrangling). But for my occupational needs, I use FOSI. I really want to use DSSSL. Anyone here who would be interested in helping with this project would be more than welcome, I'm sure. Many DSSSL posters feel kind of kicked to the curb, after all the work that was done to standardize DSSSL, only to have everyone flock to XML and it's related standards. The selling point of SGML was to ensure portability and longevity of legacy data. But it isn't a programming language. You can't create your own apps with it. SGML is pretty much useless without the apps to process it, or any way to present it. It's kinda like what our parents told us about cereal: "Don't open a new box until you finish the last box!!!"..... "And stop hitting your sister!!!" DSSSL isn't even an old standard by comparison. Still fresh and crispy. *sigh* > -----Original Message----- > From: Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com] > At 10:20 PM 5/24/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: > >Dave has mentioned that DSSSL was only partly implemented, but it should > >be emphasized that this does not mean a failure in the DSSSL > >specification: > > I couldn't disagree more. A standard which goes unimplemented is not > only a failed standard but actively damaging, as it weakens the arguments > for standards-based development. -Tim > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 24 17:51:09 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 24 18:49:58 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <374982F6.F8F99BD6@locke.ccil.org> Tim Bray wrote: > Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ Arrgh. "Specificaiton". "Releated". Spaces in URLs! -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From edz at bsn.com Mon May 24 19:10:34 1999 From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: OFF TOPIC: Re: searching for search In-Reply-To: <37496749.43CC3FD8@locke.ccil.org> from "John Cowan" at May 24, 99 10:50:49 am Message-ID: <199905241714.TAA17825@shirley> > > Marcelo Cantos wrote: > > > [E]fficient phrase indexes should roughly double our current index > > size. > > Why so big? A phrase index should be the same as a word index > with only a 4-byte word serial number in addition. Depends upon the design of the index, e.g. the basic S/R algorithms AND if the index is designed to be complete (e.g. does not require the original source) or not. This covers the gambit, depending upon the algorithms, from no increase in index size to a significant increase. > > -- > John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org > You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. > You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. > Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > -- ______________________ Edward C. Zimmermann Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Alice.Portillo at PSS.Boeing.com Mon May 24 19:13:09 1999 From: Alice.Portillo at PSS.Boeing.com (Portillo, Christina) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Mainframe AutoTagging Tool Message-ID: <715FA307208BD211AE640008C7A43BB99D064A@xch-rtn-02.ca.boeing.com> Are there any tools in the market that do conversion from a very old tagging scripting language to html or xml. Need to find products that help do this tagging conversion on a VM/CMS systems? Christina Portillo Product Definition Technology The Boeing Company Phone: 425.237.3351 PO Box 3707 M/S 6H-AF Fax: 425.237.3428 Seattle, WA 98124-2207 christina.portillo@boeing.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 24 19:39:18 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Mainframe AutoTagging Tool Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990524103429.011d1850@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:12 AM 5/24/99 -0700, Portillo, Christina wrote: >Are there any tools in the market that do conversion from a very old tagging >scripting language to html or xml. >Need to find products that help do this tagging conversion on a VM/CMS >systems? Perl. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 24 19:39:22 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:18 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990524102406.0121c590@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 12:48 PM 5/24/99 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >> Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ > >Arrgh. "Specificaiton". "Releated". Spaces in URLs! That's the e-commerce of the future for ya. I think I'll take up subsistence farming. -T. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Mon May 24 19:50:23 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: W3C process (was: Re: Weighing in on XSL / Standards) References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> Message-ID: <374990BE.3FEDD808@w3.org> Just clearing up what seems to be a side issue, about how W3C works. "Joshua E. Smith" wrote: > - The W3C seems a little schizophrenic in their treatment of what is worthy > of standardization. There is the IETF model: take a collection of working > solutions, resolve the differences, and standardize the results. Which is fine if these are minor differences on the eratta and clarification level; in other words, if folks were already pretty much working to the same spec, but the spec wasn't written down, so you reverse engineer the running code to find out what the spec was. > There is > the US Dept of Defense model: invent a brand new thing, declare it a > standard, mandate it's use, then implement it. Thats also the ISO model, often (and the ANSI, BSI, DIN etc model). However, its not the model that W3C uses. > XML is an example of the > IETF model: they took a good, working, thing (SGML) and tidied it up. Sort of. The XML WG actually did a substantial amount of work, which took up the time of a fair number of very bright people. In other words, they invented something. Yes, it was based on something pre-existing. > ECMA-Script is another good example of the IETF model. From my viewpoint, > XSL looks like an example of the USDoD approach. Am I missing some history > here? Yes, I think you are. Concurrent prototyping is a key feature of W3C work. We do open source stuff, we do little student projects, we encourage others in the development community to do trial implementation and experiment with things. There is a saying: technology gets invented, implemented, depended upon, obseleted, and standardised - in that order. Which is why W3C doesn't work like typical standards organisations. We don't (in spite of what you may have read in the press) just "endorse" stuff. We design stuff, and have it implemented, and get key industry players to contribute to making it and ensuring that it meets their needs - and then , when the spec is good enough it becomes a proposed recommendation. This typically takes about a year. One of the questions that is asked before putting a proposed recommendation to the 360+ members of W3C for review is, "what is the level of implementation support". > When a detractor can say, with a straight face, that he doubts the > standard can actually be implemented, that's usually a sign that the > standard is *way* out in front of the community, and needs more baking. Yes. Of course, there are already a buncjh of implementations of the transformation part, XSLT, and there are two announced initial implementations of parts of the FO part. > I lived in the USDoD standards world for a long, long time, and I know that > their process is completely incapable of producing anything with any value > whatsoever. I have also dabbled in the IETF standards world, and have been > uniformly impressed at how their process lets the cream rise to the top. > Since the W3C is all about the Internet, why does it have a process > separate from that of the IETF? Because standardising what has already been put into products is risky. And because specifications need to be developed in a finite time, in between a need for them being discovered and products shipping. I agree that the IETF has produced some excellent, implemented specs. But their process isn't glitch free, and can fail; see the archives of the IETF HTML WG for an example. Lots of debate, near-zero involvement of browser implementors. > I dont' get that. Can someone explain > that to me? Does it have to do with paper documents or something? Nothing to do with paper documents ;-) We do theoretically sell paper copies of W3C specs, for an ammount that covers postage and printing; AFAIK we have never actauuly sold a single paper copy, which is great. All the specs are online as HTML, and increasingly as xml as well. > So my take on the argument, in a nutshell: Somebody needs to go implement > XSL, develop some great apps using it, in the process fix everything which > is wrong with it, yes. Feedback from indelv and from fop, and others, is indeed shaping and forming the XSL spec. > and then offer it up as a standard. Standards bodies > should be editors, not authors. Actually, my experience is that specification-writing bodies should be both authors and implementors. Which is what W3C working groups do. That way, what gets produced is vendor neutral, openly available, and demonstrably implementable by the time it gets to be a W3C Recommendation. Standards bodies, in the traditional sense, come afterwards and are indeed editors. For example, the PNG spec, a W3C Recommendation since 1996, is currently going through ISO standardisation. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rakesh at watson.ibm.com Mon May 24 19:54:56 1999 From: rakesh at watson.ibm.com (Rakesh Mohan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: XML Translator Generator Message-ID: <024b01bea60e$26227d20$10500209@watson.ibm.com> WE1MIFRyYW5zbGF0b3IgR2VuZXJhdG9yIChYVHJhbnNHZW4pIGVuYWJsZXMgeW91IHRvIGNvbnZl cnQgWE1MIGRvY3VtZW50cyBhbmQgZGF0YSBiYXNlZCBvbiBvbmUgRFREIHRvIGFub3RoZXIgd2l0 aG91dCB3cml0aW5nIFhTTCBzY3JpcHRzIG9yIGFueSBwcm9ncmFtIGNvZGUuIEl0IGNhbiBhbHNv IGJlIHVzZWQgdG8gZmlsdGVyIGRhdGEgZnJvbSBIVE1MIGRvY3VtZW50cyBpbnRvIFhNTCBkb2N1 bWVudHMuIFRoaXMgcHJvY2VzcyB3b3JrcyBpbiB0d28gcGhhc2VzOiAoMSlTZXR1cDogZmlyc3Qg YSBjb21tb24gZXhhbXBsZSBpbiB0aGUgdHdvIERURHMgaXMgdXNlZCB0byBnZW5lcmF0ZSBhIHRy YW5zbGF0b3Igb25jZS4gKDIpVXNlOiB0aGlzIHRyYW5zbGF0b3IgaXMgdGhlbiB1c2VkIHRvIHRy YW5zbGF0ZSBYTUwgZG9jdW1lbnRzLiANCg0KTm93IGF2YWlsYWJsZSBhdCBJQk0gYWxwaGFXb3Jr czoNCg0KaHR0cDovL3d3dy5hbHBoYXdvcmtzLmlibS5jb20vdGVjaC94bWx0cmFuc2xhdG9yZ2Vu ZXJhdG9yDQoNClJha2VzaCAgTW9oYW4NCnJha2VzaEB3YXRzb24uaWJtLmNvbQ0K xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Mon May 24 20:06:35 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Specifying numbers as attribute values Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF5C8@RED-MSG-08> One may also specify that an attribute is a number using the XML-Data schema language, as implemented in Microsoft Internet Explorer 5.0 and described at http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/XMLGuide/schema-overview.asp and at http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/XMLData-Reduced.htm. For information on the relation between this schema vocabulary and the W3C schemas activity, see http://www.w3.org/XML/Activity.html . xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com Mon May 24 20:48:49 1999 From: nikita.ogievetsky at csfb.com (Ogievetsky, Nikita) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs Message-ID: <9C998CDFE027D211B61300A0C9CF9AB4424779@SNYC11309> Andrew Layman wrote: >What do you mean by this? Let me try again. Here are my reservations: 1. XT uses xmlns:xsl= this is an abstract URI. Works as PI, not a valid URL. MSXML uses: xmlns:xsl =, the URI points to W3C Working Draft 21 Apr 1999 which MSXML is not compliant with. I would suggest that every specification, working draft, etc. specify the namespace URI that all implementing parsers should understand. MSXML XSL implementation changed from IE5 beta to IE5, but namespace URI stayed the same. I think it would have been logical (for the sake of compatibility) to let me use "beta" syntax in XSL document if I specify "beta" URI. 2. I can build a valid XSL document: ... Using different prefix is fine with both XT and MSXML parsers, but confusing for humans. When I read XML document I never look at what stands behind URI. (As I never open readme files :) It seams that prefixes like dt, xsl, xlink, rdf, etc should become more important then just being temporary proxy. They are already not temporary. ... xlink looks as a possible candidate here to enhance current specification. ... I found that most of what I wanted to say is expressed much better then I can do by Liam R. E. Quin: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list/archive/msg03388.html http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9811/0203.html Nikita Ogievetsky. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 24 20:57:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14153.40748.796515.448456@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > [statement that XSL is "at least two orders of magnitude more > complicated" than CSS1] > > Gak, what a thought. Can we really use tools that differ by > a complexity of 100 from other tools? Consider the idea of > a programming language 100 times simpler than C, or 100 times > more complex than Standard C++. Can the mind really grasp > such a thing? Sure, why not? Complexity is mostly subjective anyway, and every new feature potentially creates interactions with existing features, so I'm not at any risk of being proven wrong (or right). Paul Prescod would probably tell us that Python is 100 times simpler than C; personally, I'd suggest that any programming language with garbage collection is automatically 10 times simpler than one without, especially for newbies. Isn't ADA 100 times more complex than Standard C++, or were the people who told me that just disgruntled? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Mon May 24 21:05:43 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF5D1@RED-MSG-08> Nikita Ogievetsky points out that the XSL namespace URI recognized by the MSXML parser is "http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xsl", and that the specification referenced by that URI at the time the parser was written is not the specification found there now. I believe that the W3C is aware of the problem created by URIs to changing content, and has implemented new document naming policies so that stable URIs are now available, so this sort of problem should be avoidable in the future. Nikita also observes that it is natural for humans to read prefix names as descriptive of their function, for example expecting "xsl:" to be a prefix standing for the URI of the XSL specification. Indeed, this is a major aid to human readers -- an important constituency! -- but this is nothing new to XML: It has always been good programming practice to name variables and functions meaningfully. This does not, however, require a central registry of good names; merely moderately intelligent authors suffices. I hope this is helpful, Andrew Layman xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ckaiman at i3solutions.com Mon May 24 22:33:25 1999 From: ckaiman at i3solutions.com (Charlie Kaiman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Accepting $.02 Message-ID: <01BEA603.02FA66B0.ckaiman@i3solutions.com> Hello, For anyone interested, we have developed a fun application using Microsoft's stock index demo as a template. We've thrown in a little *twist* that some of you might enjoy ... because our app is tied to real data, converted to XML, and displayed on the client with XSL (IE 5.0 only). Have fun and let us know what you think!! Charlie Kaiman i3solutions, Inc. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ckaiman at i3solutions.com Mon May 24 22:36:02 1999 From: ckaiman at i3solutions.com (Charlie Kaiman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Accepting $.02 Message-ID: <01BEA603.6BEE88E0.ckaiman@i3solutions.com> Rookie mistake ... forgot to add the URL. http://206.99.250.11/i3localweb/quote.asp xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Mon May 24 23:02:49 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> <14153.40748.796515.448456@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3749BE5D.C0BADEA7@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson wrote: > Paul Prescod would probably tell us that Python is 100 times simpler > than C; personally, I'd suggest that any programming language with > garbage collection is automatically 10 times simpler than one without, > especially for newbies. In some ways Standard C++ is simpler than pre-standard, because one can avoid the low-level C stuff for which O-O replacements are now available. There was a column in C/C++UJ to that effect recently. > Isn't ADA 100 times more complex than Standard C++, or were the people > who told me that just disgruntled? Hey, hey! Everything Java does, Ada does better, Everything Java does, Ada can do! See Tucker Taft's paper on AppletMagic, the Ada 95 compiler for the JVM, at http://www.appletmagic.com/ajpaper/index.html . I especially like this remark from the Conclusion: # [W]ith one applet that we translated, after implementing full # constraint checking in the Ada to Java compiler, we immediately # began to reap the benefits of Ada's notion of range checks. # The first Constraint_Error that was raised identified a small # error in the hand translation from the original Java applet # into Ada. After fixing that error, the next Constraint_Error # raised identifed a deep logic error in the original Java applet, # which ultimately turned out to be due to # the randomization mechanism used to initialize the game. Ada and Algol 68 have both gotten an undeserved bad rap for complexity, mostly due to the complexity of the *documentation*. Both made some mistakes (structural equivalence in Algol, hardwired multitasking in Ada), admittedly. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From barranquero at laley-actualidad.es Mon May 24 23:47:34 1999 From: barranquero at laley-actualidad.es (Juanma Barranquero) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <3749BE5D.C0BADEA7@locke.ccil.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> <14153.40748.796515.448456@localhost.localdomain> <3749BE5D.C0BADEA7@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <374cc8b5.1073673@laley-actualidad.es> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, 24 May 1999 17:02:21 -0400, John Cowan wrote: >Both made some mistakes (structural equivalence in Algol, >hardwired multitasking in Ada), admittedly. Why do you consider "hardwired multitasking" a mistake in Ada? /L/e/k/t/u -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: PGPfreeware 6.0.2i iQA/AwUBN0m61/4C0a0jUw5YEQJlAACfdX3ZzXOo67CaAuB8XuHm0bcEM/0AoIhW QNqB58iv9/IuSjUcrZrJRZsX =pQaU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Tue May 25 00:35:24 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Accepting $.02 Message-ID: > For anyone interested, we have developed a fun application using > Microsoft's stock index demo as a template. We've thrown in a little > *twist* that some of you might enjoy ... because our app is > tied to real > data, converted to XML, and displayed on the client with XSL > (IE 5.0 only). > Have fun and let us know what you think!! The XML doesn't match the schema provided. Of course, since you're not validating client-side it doesn't matter anyway, but you have a schema that wants a portfolio element as the top container, and your document has one called quotes. Anyway, far more interesting would be the conversion from the 'popular portal' to XML. Any comments you're prepared to share on that? Best wishes, Mark Mark Birbeck w: http://www.iedigital.net/ e: Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net > > Charlie Kaiman > i3solutions, Inc. > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and > on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the > following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at goon.stg.brown.edu Tue May 25 00:38:25 1999 From: richard at goon.stg.brown.edu (Richard L. Goerwitz) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: standalone='no' -> standalone='yes' Message-ID: <3749D470.1DDB2620@goon.stg.brown.edu> Has anybody written a general-purpose utility for converting SGML and XML documents with an external DTD subset and/or external parameter entities into documents that keep all this information in the internal DTD subset? -- Richard Goerwitz PGP key fingerprint: C1 3E F4 23 7C 33 51 8D 3B 88 53 57 56 0D 38 A0 For more info (mail, phone, fax no.): finger richard@goon.stg.brown.edu xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From roddey at us.ibm.com Tue May 25 00:50:39 1999 From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Announce: Version 2.1.0 of XML4C2 Message-ID: <8725677B.007D638D.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> Version 2.1.0 of XML4C2 should be out on the Alphaworks site soon if not already (www.alphaworks.ibm.com) This version has a lot of conformance improvements, performance improvements, and bug fixes. This one also now includes Solaris/CC support. Source and binary releases are available. XML4C2 has had 4800 downloads since its first release a few weeks ago, so its doing pretty well. Feel free to download it and give us any feedback you might have. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 00:56:51 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3749D774.6615CDF@w3.org> David Megginson wrote: > > Joshua E. Smith writes: > > [on XSL] > > > Am I missing some history here? When a detractor can say, with a > > straight face, that he doubts the standard can actually be > > implemented, that's usually a sign that the standard is *way* out > > in front of the community, and needs more baking. > > XSL inherits from at least two major sources -- FOSIs, which are/were > SGML instance-based stylesheets for typesetting SGML documents, > specified by the USDoD; and DSSSL, which is/was a declarative > Scheme-based language for transforming and formatting SGML documents, > standardized by ISO. Uh, it also inherits rather substantially from CSS, if you look at the drafts. > I don't think that anyone can say, with a straight face, that XSL > *cannot* be implemented, Right. They can claim that its hard; they can claim that the effort is not worthwhile, (which depends on your particular cost/benefit analysis) but can only claim that they *can't* be implemented by pointing to a direct contradiction in the spec, and furthermore one which cannot be removed. > though the flow objects will be a challenge > (as with CSS, for that matter) I don't see FOs as a particular challenge, but I know that some folk, particularly those with a very low-level, bit twiddling view, tend to find them scary. But then, thats probably because CS students are taught all about complier technology but aren't taught all about constraint-based geometric systems. > -- the implementation process is fairly > straight-forward, and there are already several implementations > available (none is perfect, but that's to be expected when the spec > itself is still unstable). In this regard, XSL is doing much better > than many other W3C specs. Hmm. Talking specifically about the FO part and about announced implementations, I would characterise them as "fairly incomplete" rather than "not perfect". And certainly not "much better than most W3C specs" unless you can quote counterexamples. > The real question is what kind of market penetration XSL will have. > I'll probably use it a lot for my personal work, because I'm used to > that kind of programming and quite enjoy it; you may be right, though, > that it's too far in front of the Web community -- even a > brain-dead-simple thing like CSS1 is still having trouble catching on > after several years, Primarily because of the difficulty, at that time, of changing a world view that said "tags and attributes are just fine, thanks, and can I have another 5 HTML extensions". CSS1 is not brain-dead-simple, from an implementation standpoint, although you are welcome to whip up a quick 100% compliant implementation if you wish to prove me wrong. But to agree with your earlier point, the implementation process is indeed relatively straightforward, provided that compliance to undocumented HTML layout features and not breaking HTML existing pages isn't taken as the overriding design constraint. The XSL FO implementations that I have seen are significantly behind CSS1 in functionality, though doubtless they will catch up soon because the main difficulty in the past was not technical but political and sociological. People didn't see the point in style sheets, and in many cases they still don't - but at least XML doesn't have a huge legacy rendering issue to deal with. > and XSL is at least two orders of magnitude more > complex than CSS. Apart from the addition of transformation, which is a separate spec and can just as well be used to generate XML+CSS as it can be used to generate FOs, I don't see a whole order of magnitude more complexity (or functionality) in XSL than in CSS2. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jamesr at steptwo.com.au Tue May 25 01:25:34 1999 From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374982F6.F8F99BD6@locke.ccil.org> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.1.19990525092219.031a2100@mail.steptwo.com.au> At 02:48 25/05/1999 , John Cowan wrote: | Tim Bray wrote: | | > Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ | | Arrgh. "Specificaiton". "Releated". Spaces in URLs! Yes, my proxy server says: URLs? Show me a valid URL! So I've no idea what's on the pages of content. Does no-one bother testing at Micro$oft at all nowdays? J ------------------------- James Robertson Step Two Designs Pty Ltd SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy http://www.steptwo.com.au/ jamesr@steptwo.com.au "Beyond the Idea" ACN 081 019 623 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msf at mds.rmit.edu.au Tue May 25 03:32:54 1999 From: msf at mds.rmit.edu.au (Michael Fuller) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:19 2004 Subject: searching for search In-Reply-To: ; from Marcelo Cantos on Mon, May 24, 1999 at 12:07:09PM +1000 Message-ID: <19990525113231.A24123@io.mds.rmit.edu.au> On Mon, May 24, 1999 at 12:07:09PM +1000, Marcelo Cantos wrote: > On Sun, May 23, 1999 at 11:31:43PM +0200, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > > - in general, what are the features that push a technology > > > into another level of complexity and why (i.e. what is so > > > hard here?) > > Designing fulltext engines is not difficult :-) > > Making them updateable, small and fast is. [...] > Here is a list of features that have the potential to push complexity > (the list is neither comprehensive, nor in any particular order): [...] Not, to mention Unicode support, hmmm? Normalization of combining forms, exact/fuzzy matching, directionality, ... Unicode aside, cross-lingual suppport in general. Querying of hyper-linked data (including, but not limited to, web data). Michael ____________________________________________ http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au/~msf/ Multimedia Databases Group, RMIT, Australia. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Tue May 25 03:59:39 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <009801bea651$52e12080$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Tim Bray To: XML Dev Sent: 24/05/1999 11:51 Subject: Lotsa laughs > Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ > > -Tim Forgive me for being slow but what is the funny part? Like it or not it seems this is something anyone working in e-commerce is going to have to take seriously given it has the support of Microsoft, SAP, Baan and Peoplesoft. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Tue May 25 04:38:47 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <009801bea651$52e12080$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> At 09:53 AM 05/25/1999 +0800, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: >> Check out http://www.biztalk.org/ >Forgive me for being slow but what is the funny part? The funny part is that when Tim first posted the message, almost none of the links worked because the URLs contained spaces, which caused a server error 400 for malformed address syntax. Not a very pretty advertisement for something that's going to "revolutionize e-commerce"! I seriously doubt that Tim, of all people, would deride any well-executed XML initiative. (Btw, as of a second ago they still hadn't fixed the links.) ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Tue May 25 04:40:06 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <009801bea651$52e12080$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990524193053.00c3ec50@mail.userland.com> >>Like it or not it seems this is something anyone working in e-commerce is going to have to take seriously given it has the support of Microsoft, SAP, Baan and Peoplesoft. Famous last words! That's exactly the kind of stuff people said about various mail APIs that were floating around just around the time that the Internet rewrote all the rules in the software business. No, the size of the company doesn't determine the viability of the ideas, not even in the corporate world. Gotta learn this one over and over and over and over. Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dent at oofile.com.au Tue May 25 04:54:38 1999 From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> Message-ID: >At 10:28 -0400 23/5/99, Joshua E. Smith wrote: >- It is often argued by the expert systems guys that production-based rule >systems (or "case based reasoning") is *more* intuitive than... but >it is an article of faith in that community, and might help >to explain why the XSL camp seems to have a lot of "religion" about ease of >use. I think this is a 'straw man' argument. I have no problems with declarative vs procedural but I think the single biggest thing in the way of XSL is that its syntax is hard to use. I've been working in and studying UI design and usability for about 6 years and using tools on many platforms for about 15. The key factor in adoption is always ease of use, driven mainly by the tools. Some people may mistake the success of VB et al as being due to their using a GUI. I don't think this superficially attractive argument is the ansewr. The answer is the very simple abstract model that allows users to produce solutions. Apple's Hypercard was similarly successful for many years. In fact, in terms of widespread use by non-programmers I'd say it is the most successful tool to date (taking the percentage of people who had access to HC and chose to use it). With Hypercard, Apple introduced a carefully layered model of abstractions - people could create real systems with a very simple abstract model, but more power was available under the hood. If you accept this argument, then the future of XSL is a little scary. Apart from the syntactical difficulty of writing it in text editors (hopefully a passing phase) there is the complex abstract model. The only way I see it being a success is if the editing tools present an abstract model which is NOT actually that of XSL. Otherwise, it will remain a programming language for layout geeks (not necessarily a small niche!) :-) Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability http://www.oofile.com.au/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk Tue May 25 04:59:03 1999 From: guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk (Guy Murphy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Topic Navigation Maps... Message-ID: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> Hi. Is anyone aware of any Topic Navigation Maps out there, as per the ISO 13250 spec? I've read some introductory material, and I'm grasping the overview OK. Now reading through the spec, the nitty gritties just aren't falling into place for me. I'm not sure they're going to in any timely fashion without a gander at an existing topic map. Oh, and while I'm begging pointers, if anybody has a favourite resource on HyTime Linking (something descrete, I've seen the voluminous refs, and they scare me) to recommend my life would I think be complete :) Thanks for any pointers. Cheers Guy xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Tue May 25 05:13:17 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <015401bea65b$90adda20$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: John E. Simpson To: Steve Oldmeadow ; XML Dev Sent: 25/05/1999 10:38 Subject: Re: Lotsa laughs > I seriously doubt that Tim, of all people, would deride any well-executed > XML initiative. (Btw, as of a second ago they still hadn't fixed the links.) The site seems fine to me, I am using IE5 though. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From simpson at polaris.net Tue May 25 05:44:28 1999 From: simpson at polaris.net (John E. Simpson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <015401bea65b$90adda20$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> At 11:06 AM 05/25/1999 +0800, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: >The site [BizTalk] seems fine to me, I am using IE5 though. Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" URLs with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an interesting twist. ========================================================== John E. Simpson | The secret of eternal youth simpson@polaris.net | is arrested development. http://www.flixml.org | -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue May 25 05:55:31 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > At 11:06 AM 05/25/1999 +0800, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > >The site [BizTalk] seems fine to me, I am using IE5 though. > > Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" URLs > with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an > interesting twist. This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 25 06:02:03 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <009801bea651$52e12080$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: <000101bea663$8b03ae80$18fdfea9@w21tp> > Forgive me for being slow but what is the funny part? Like > it or not it > seems this is something anyone working in e-commerce is going > to have to > take seriously given it has the support of Microsoft, SAP, Baan and > Peoplesoft. Well, I wouldn't be laughing so much if they spent as much effort on the spec as they apparently did spend on all those press releases. BizTalk spec version 0.8 is so full of nothing that I wonder if the version 0.7 was on a piece of napkin. I sure hope they improve it real fast rather than talking fast. Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue May 25 06:25:07 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <374A2B4B.9E10F84E@finetuning.com> This isn't funny. Am I to understand that unless I use IE5, I can't read anything about BizTalk, and Microsoft doesn't care? I'm geting really sick of these sites that look crappy in Netscape (like VBXML, for example), and most of Microsoft's site. They are REALLY starting to annoy me. It's Microsoft shooting themselves in the foot, if you ask me. If they don't want to fix BizTalk.org. Then I just won't write about it. I won't write about it in my book, or on XML.com, or finetuning.com or anywhere else. Screw 'em! (I HAD two different stories in the works, too.) ********* ......oh okay.....please if anyone at Microsoft is listening: will you fix the damn site so it works in Netscape too? I think you should really think about the message this is sending....you guys can't take over the world if we can't read your propaganda :-) lisa James Clark wrote: > > "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > > > At 11:06 AM 05/25/1999 +0800, Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > > >The site [BizTalk] seems fine to me, I am using IE5 though. > > > > Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" URLs > > with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an > > interesting twist. > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs > > James > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue May 25 06:27:29 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <374A2BD9.BF627C68@finetuning.com> > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs > > James > Okay I read through the link and now I am really confused. Could someone please explain what's going on in that section. In english? thanks, lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From hussain at granularity.com Tue May 25 06:42:48 1999 From: hussain at granularity.com (G. Hussain Chinoy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374A2BD9.BF627C68@finetuning.com> Message-ID: Lisa, Good point in your last post. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but Section 5 basically says: "If it ain't URI syntax valid [like a space] the char must be converted to escaped UTF-8 [%HH]", so a space becomes %20. fyi RFC2396 2.4.3 says that "space" (among others) are excluded US-ASCII chars w/i a URI. http://info.internet.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc/files/rfc2396.txt H On Mon, 24 May 1999, Lisa Rein wrote: > > > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs > > > > James > > > > Okay I read through the link and now I am really confused. Could > someone please explain what's going on in that section. In english? > > thanks, > > lisa > ----------------------------------------- G. Hussain Chinoy hussain@granularity.com Chief Information Architect, CEO Granularity Information Architecture, Inc. http://www.granularity.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Tue May 25 07:02:20 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.37.19990524193053.00c3ec50@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <001c01bea66a$dfcc3980$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Dave Winer To: Sent: 25/05/1999 10:35 Subject: Re: Lotsa laughs > >>Like it or not it seems this is something anyone working in e-commerce > is going to have to take seriously given it has the support of Microsoft, > SAP, Baan and Peoplesoft. > > Famous last words! That's exactly the kind of stuff people said about > various mail APIs that were floating around just around the time that the > Internet rewrote all the rules in the software business. No, the size of > the company doesn't determine the viability of the ideas, not even in the > corporate world. Gotta learn this one over and over and over and over. > > Dave Last year I was working in a large Government Department that all other Government Departments had to exchange data with. The IT strategy of the Department I was working at was Microsoft. They will willingly implement whatever Microsoft throws their way so I can see in the not too distant future that all Government Departments in the state where I reside will be using Biztalk whether they like it or not. Microsoft have captured the hearts and minds of many people who do not want to hear anything bad about Microsoft and these people don't care about open standards. To paraphrase one Microsoftian I was talking to "I just want products that work together". A lot of people have been burned by incompatibilities between products using alleged "Internet" standards and are now moving back to a one vendor solution. I'm afraid I disagree with you on the size of the company issue. I find it incredibly hard to sell someone on a product from a company they have never heard of regardless of how great the product is. If its a product from Microsoft or Oracle its a different story. Maybe this is just an Australian phenomenon? I don't want anyone to think I'm advocating Biztalk but I think realistically it is going to get a significant share of the e-commerce market and therefore can't be ignored. I'll be very happy if I'm proven wrong though. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue May 25 07:12:44 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.37.19990524193053.00c3ec50@mail.userland.com> <001c01bea66a$dfcc3980$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: <374A366E.C6F27E31@finetuning.com> > > I don't want anyone to think I'm advocating Biztalk but I think > realistically it is going to get a significant share of the e-commerce > market and therefore can't be ignored. I'll be very happy if I'm proven > wrong though. > It won't be ignored. It will have to be dealt with, just like any other pseudo-standard widely implemented Microsoft creation. Oh I'm sorry, did I say pseudo-standard? I meant just like any other proprietary format. lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chtino at hnc.co.kr Tue May 25 07:23:57 1999 From: chtino at hnc.co.kr (Chung Byung Hee) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev Message-ID: <374A3297.A9FC6FC0@hnc.co.kr> unsubscribe xml-dev chtino@hnc.co.kr -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: chtino.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 390 bytes Desc: Card for Chung Byung Hee Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990525/eb4e01f5/chtino.vcf From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue May 25 10:29:24 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Topic Navigation Maps... In-Reply-To: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> References: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> Message-ID: * Guy Murphy | | Is anyone aware of any Topic Navigation Maps out there, as per the | ISO 13250 spec? Eliot Kimber posted one to this list a while ago, I think. Also, there is a sample topic map that comes with tmproc: | Oh, and while I'm begging pointers, if anybody has a favourite | resource on HyTime Linking (something descrete, I've seen the | voluminous refs, and they scare me) to recommend my life would I | think be complete :) --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Tue May 25 10:29:23 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:20 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> Message-ID: * John E. Simpson | | Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 | "reads" URLs with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them | to %20s. That's an interesting twist. Opera also handles this fine. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Tue May 25 11:35:49 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEA6@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > Gak, what a thought. Can we really use tools that differ by > a complexity of 100 from other tools? Consider the idea of > a programming language 100 times simpler than C, or 100 times > more complex than Standard C++. Can the mind really grasp > such a thing? Remember PL/I? (My mind couldn't grasp it, but I guess others could). The SQL 1986 standard was 104 pages long. The 1992 standard was 607 pages. I don't have a final copy of SQL3 but my draft copy (a couple of years old) is 1270 pages. What's the ratio for XML:SGML? Mike Kay xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 13:55:31 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <374A8F9F.A6E8A51F@w3.org> James Clark wrote: > > "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" URLs > > with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an > > interesting twist. > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs Actually, no. What it is doing is taking content which is *not* in conformance with either the W3C Character Model or RFC2396, and silently fixing it up so that it *does* conform when dereferencing URLs. This is supposed to happen on authoring (so the content is valid), not as a form of retrospective error correction. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Tue May 25 14:12:37 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> <374A8F9F.A6E8A51F@w3.org> Message-ID: <374A92A4.F1A76917@jclark.com> Actually, yes. I stand by what I said. I've been into this in great detail in the context of XSL/XPointer unification (because XSL patterns use square brackets which are not allowed by RFC 2396), including checking with the editor of the Character Model WD. The consequence of the Character Model WD is that in an HTML or XML element or attribute that is representing a URI reference, you can use characters which RFC 2396 prohibits in URI references, and each such character will be treated as if it had been escaped by %-encoding each of the sequence of bytes that encodes the character in UTF-8; if it was an HTTP URL, then the %-encoded sequence would be what actually goes on the wire in the GET request. The reason for doing this is that RFC 2396 prohibits all non-ASCII characters and it's a non-starter from an I18N perspective to require that non-English users creating their documents by hand in a text editor represent the characters of their language using a completely unreadable sequence of %-escapes. Chris Lilley wrote: > > James Clark wrote: > > > > "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > > Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" URLs > > > with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an > > > interesting twist. > > > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs > > Actually, no. > > What it is doing is taking content which is *not* in conformance with > either the W3C Character Model or RFC2396, and silently fixing it up so > that it *does* conform when dereferencing URLs. > > This is supposed to happen on authoring (so the content is valid), not > as a form of retrospective error correction. > > -- > Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 14:18:36 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Omitted selector in CSS2 rulesets References: <199905222001.QAA00433@pleurotus.local> Message-ID: <374A9501.4DF7E552@w3.org> abrahams@acm.org wrote: > > The core syntax of CSS2 (Sec. 4.1.1 of the spec) specifies that the > selector in a ruleset is optional. The syntax in Appendix D says the > same thing, but more elaborately. Can anyone explain the rationale > behind making the selector optional, or what the effect is of a ruleset > without a selector? These two rules are identical in effect, one has no selector: * { font-family: Garamond } { font-family: Garamond } Think of the selector as a filter, that screens out non-matching elements. If there is no selector, all elements are matched. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 14:25:05 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <9C998CDFE027D211B61300A0C9CF9AB4424776@SNYC11309> Message-ID: <374A96A4.BB25F9DD@w3.org> "Ogievetsky, Nikita" wrote: > Let us say I will start using "xthing:" alias for namespaces > in my documents. How can I be guarantied that next year > somebody will not come up with XThing recommendation > and future versions of XML parsers will make it a reserved word? By noting that it doesn't start with the letters {x,X}{m,M}{l,L} > Isn't it against some basic XML principles? > 6. My suggestion: come up with a new URI scheme that has the same > scheme-specific syntax as an http URI but that is only intended as a > unique > identifier. "urn:namespace:your%20stuff%20here" for example? -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From srn at techno.com Tue May 25 15:01:55 1999 From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Topic Navigation Maps... In-Reply-To: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> (guy-murphy@easynet.co.uk) References: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> Message-ID: <199905251302.IAA01209@bruno.techno.com> > From: "Guy Murphy" > Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 03:55:06 +0100 > Is anyone aware of any Topic Navigation Maps out there, as per the > ISO 13250 spec? Yes and no. For example, Michel Biezunski (mb@infoloom.com, www.infoloom.com) has for several years provided topic maps on the CD-ROMs of the SGML, SGML Europe, XML, and XML Europe conferences. Unfortunately, these don't meet the spec as it was ultimately adopted (adoption occurred only a few weeks ago). There are commercial projects underway now to create 13250-conforming topic maps, but, as far as I know, no such publicly available topic map exists at this moment. Last I heard, Michel is working to provide a rework of part of the last XML Europe conference's proceedings in the form of a 13250-conforming topic map. If you indicate that you need access to it, maybe he'll make it available. > I've read some introductory material, and I'm grasping the overview > OK. Now reading through the spec, the nitty gritties just aren't > falling into place for me. I'm not sure they're going to in any > timely fashion without a gander at an existing topic map. > Oh, and while I'm begging pointers, if anybody has a favourite > resource on HyTime Linking (something descrete, I've seen the > voluminous refs, and they scare me) to recommend my life would I > think be complete :) If you haven't read ISO standards before, let me warn you that they are not written as tutorial documents. They are written as legal documents that are intended to constrain, in this case, software system vendors so that the outputs of their various programs will be usable as inputs to the programs of their competitors. In other words, they are not known for their understandability and they are not especially useful for instructional purposes. Because of popular demand, the pressure of major early adopters, and the fact that there's no book about this standard yet, Michel Biezunski and I are repeating our very-well-received two-day Topic Map Workshop during the week of June 21, under the ISOGEN/DataChannel banner. There are still seats available in both sessions: June 21-22 in the Seattle, Washington, USA area, and June 24-25 in the Dallas, Texas USA area. To register, contact Michele Budz, michele@isogen.com, +1 214 953 0004. The tuition charge is USD1400. The first day of each two-day session puts all the pieces together: topic characteristics, scopes, merging topic maps, topic map self-documentation, etc. etc. The second day concerns itself mainly with the foundational concepts needed to understand and implement topic maps applications: linking, addressing, the inheritance of information architectures, etc. Demonstrations and examples are used in both days. -Steve -- Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc. srn@techno.com http://www.techno.com ftp.techno.com voice: +1 972 231 4098 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 0004 x137) fax +1 972 994 0087 (at ISOGEN: +1 214 953 3152) 3615 Tanner Lane Richardson, Texas 75082-2618 USA xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 25 15:22:15 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards In-Reply-To: <3749D774.6615CDF@w3.org> References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> <3749D774.6615CDF@w3.org> Message-ID: <14154.41777.954156.21660@localhost.localdomain> Chris Lilley writes: > > -- the implementation process is fairly straight-forward, and > > there are already several implementations available (none is > > perfect, but that's to be expected when the spec itself is still > > unstable). In this regard, XSL is doing much better than many > > other W3C specs. > > Hmm. > > Talking specifically about the FO part and about announced > implementations, I would characterise them as "fairly incomplete" > rather than "not perfect". And certainly not "much better than most > W3C specs" unless you can quote counterexamples. Actually, I was talking about the XSLT part -- as I mentioned in an earlier part of the post, FO's are hard. I am in a positive where it would not be diplomatic to name names, but go to http://www.w3.org/TR/ and read down the list of REC's, PR's, and WD's, and then count actual implementations for each one (if you want to be really tough, count only implementations not sponsored in some way by the W3C itself). > CSS1 is not brain-dead-simple, from an implementation standpoint, > although you are welcome to whip up a quick 100% compliant > implementation if you wish to prove me wrong. Again, as I mentioned earlier in this message, FO's are hard, even for CSS1. On the other hand, only a tiny handful of browser writers have to deal with that part of the complexity; the real cost of complexity is the cost of training, learning, etc., and CSS1 is brain-dead simple in that respect (it does rely on an understanding of the abstraction of elements, attributes, and data in a tree, but that's a prerequisite for working with XML anyway). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 15:35:16 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards References: <3.0.1.32.19990523102814.0077fb18@tiac.net> <14153.15808.823183.715856@localhost.localdomain> <37496C42.F51140C@locke.ccil.org> <14153.40748.796515.448456@localhost.localdomain> <3749BE5D.C0BADEA7@locke.ccil.org> <374cc8b5.1073673@laley-actualidad.es> Message-ID: <374AA720.44F9129E@locke.ccil.org> Juanma Barranquero wrote: > Why do you consider "hardwired multitasking" a mistake in Ada? Perhaps not so much a mistake as premature. It would have been better to require it only in embedded, not also in hosted, implementations, IMHO. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 15:39:42 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <009801bea651$52e12080$0201a8c0@pikachu> Message-ID: <374AA887.A4D5996D@locke.ccil.org> Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > Forgive me for being slow but what is the funny part? What's funny is that the site is unproofread and untested. Try clicking on some of the items in the left-hand index frame (at least as of yesterday); they don't work, because they references files with spaces in their names. That's fine under most modern OSes, but URLs cannot have spaces in their names. Consequently, the web server (rightly) barfs. Perhaps this is now fixed; I haven't gone back to see. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 16:03:23 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374A366E.C6F27E31@finetuning.com> Message-ID: Hi Lisa, You said: > It won't be ignored. It will have to be dealt with, just like any other > pseudo-standard widely implemented Microsoft creation. > Oh I'm sorry, did I say pseudo-standard? I meant just like any other > proprietary format. reply: More and more I am getting confused by the word "standard": a) Sun claim that Java is a standard but still keep control on it. However, they try to find an organism to put a stamp of approval or a "standard" stamp on this even if it remains that most of Java is a Sun production and that the API is mostly a SUN byproduct. Even with that state of fact, a lot of people embrace the Java as a standard song. b) European ECMA organism at some time declared that some part of Win32 is a standard. There is even a group of people that implement the Win32 API on other platforms(this is not mainsoft or Bristol). They are not suited by Microsoft . But Win32 is said proprietary c)W3C is a consortium of several companies and produces "standards". However the W3C composition is mostly American. Could we say that W3C produces international standards? d) ISO is an international organism with representative from different countries. But ISO weight seems to be less and less significant. e) Sometime a group of manufacturer comes with a new common API and declare this as a standard. f) some Linux group claim that their version is the "standard" Linux version. g) IETF is also producing standards. Is IETF more or less democratic than W3C? Is IETF representive? h) Is what a group of people choose a standard? Is a market share a standard. English is the "de facto" official US language. Can I clainm that we got 1000 signature to state that laplander is a US language "standard". Will this group be taken seriously? are we doing the same thing in our field? I do not say that one is better than the other. Just ask: what do the word "standard" means now. What is behind this word? It seems that the word "standard" is a new modern marketing magic wand. what do this means exactly? If W3C has 320 members and claim to produce "standards". Does this means that if I get 320 friends (not from the same company) and produce a spec, could this be a "standard"? if not why? Did we forget some historical lessons when at some period of time people where claiming authority based on some "standards", even attributed themselves the right to burn people not conforming to the "standards". So, what this word really mean today? disguised power struggle? Do "standard" really mean "against Microsoft" (this does not necessarily I am for _ and that I have to say this just put more emphasis on the quest to find the real meaning of "standards") ? Do "standard" mean... What this word really means anyway? What is really behind it? PS: about the URL stuff and the Biztalk site. The specs says that a URLs having spaces are to be transformed so that the spaces are replaced with %20 or encoded before "name resolution". Some browsers do this when the URL is typed in the address box but not when the URL is contained in a text. Is this a bad implementation? maybe. However we can say that this omission could leads to problems as you experimented on this site. Where is the breakdown? in the browser that do not do the transform or the author that do not manually do the transform (from " " to "%20")? And, what is objectivity then? What about the reflex of some members of this list to claim guilty without doing some homework? Why not instead report the problem to Mozilla.org so that we can correct the problem. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 16:14:59 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374A8F9F.A6E8A51F@w3.org> Message-ID: Hi Chris, You said: > What it is doing is taking content which is *not* in conformance with > either the W3C Character Model or RFC2396, and silently fixing it up so > that it *does* conform when dereferencing URLs. > This is supposed to happen on authoring (so the content is valid), not > as a form of retrospective error correction. reply: This reminds me of IETF arguments we got several years ago. a) If we impose to the author that a URL is well formed and correctly encoded. This means that any URL entered in the address box (an authoring tool) should be correctly encoded. Is this realistic? b) What is the difference between the two authoring tools a) the address box, b) a HTML editor. You can say that both should correct the encoding by replacing " " by "%20". Then, it seems that the biztalk author has a bad authoring tool. It remains that a good browser should try to recover as much as possible from the errors created by authors (and if possible correct). The best thing is to help us by reporting the problem to Mozilla.org so that this deficiency is corrected. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 16:15:30 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <374AB0CA.F149F564@locke.ccil.org> James Clark wrote: > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See More specifically, it conforms to the HTML 4.0 recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.2) which recommends that user agents should fix up URLs containing illegal characters. Nevertheless, it is an embarrassment that such a site exports illegal HTML. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jabuss at cessna.textron.com Tue May 25 16:21:44 1999 From: jabuss at cessna.textron.com (Buss, Jason A) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: Yes, it is. However; hence the words "Working Draft"... Something like this is lovely for "experimental implementation" purposes. But am I not correct in thinking all the press releases I have seen say Biztalk is supposed to be available for commerical use around Q3, 1999? Are all the WGs going to bust their humps to make sure they have rec'ed all the WDs in time for the big release? Not likely. Especially with the current debate surrounding XSL/XSLT. The whole syntax could go out the window, or even FO's. And why they want to introduce a commercial web application this soon, no backwards compatibility, I just don't get it. Andrew, comments, please??? -Jason > -----Original Message----- > From: James Clark [SMTP:jjc@jclark.com] > "John E. Simpson" wrote: > > Ah. Yes, I just checked using IE5 and can indeed see that IE5 "reads" > URLs > > with embedded spaces just fine, by auto-encoding them to %20s. That's an > > interesting twist. > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-charmod#URIs > > James > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dave at userland.com Tue May 25 16:25:32 1999 From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <001c01bea66a$dfcc3980$0201a8c0@pikachu> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <4.2.0.37.19990524193053.00c3ec50@mail.userland.com> Message-ID: <4.2.0.37.19990525071919.00c35630@mail.userland.com> No doubt, No One Ever Got Fired for Choosing Microsoft. I'm telling a different story. Here's how it goes. To assume that Microsoft will come up with something that works just because they're a big company is to ignore the lessons of history. IBM gave us TopView. Everyone said that's it, it's all over. It wasn't. Never is. Dave At 09:55 PM 5/24/99 , you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Dave Winer >To: >Sent: 25/05/1999 10:35 >Subject: Re: Lotsa laughs > > > > >>Like it or not it seems this is something anyone working in e-commerce > > is going to have to take seriously given it has the support of Microsoft, > > SAP, Baan and Peoplesoft. > > > > Famous last words! That's exactly the kind of stuff people said about > > various mail APIs that were floating around just around the time that the > > Internet rewrote all the rules in the software business. No, the size of > > the company doesn't determine the viability of the ideas, not even in the > > corporate world. Gotta learn this one over and over and over and over. > > > > Dave > >Last year I was working in a large Government Department that all other >Government Departments had to exchange data with. The IT strategy of the >Department I was working at was Microsoft. They will willingly implement >whatever Microsoft throws their way so I can see in the not too distant >future that all Government Departments in the state where I reside will be >using Biztalk whether they like it or not. > >Microsoft have captured the hearts and minds of many people who do not want >to hear anything bad about Microsoft and these people don't care about open >standards. To paraphrase one Microsoftian I was talking to "I just want >products that work together". A lot of people have been burned by >incompatibilities between products using alleged "Internet" standards and >are now moving back to a one vendor solution. > >I'm afraid I disagree with you on the size of the company issue. I find it >incredibly hard to sell someone on a product from a company they have never >heard of regardless of how great the product is. If its a product from >Microsoft or Oracle its a different story. Maybe this is just an Australian >phenomenon? > >I don't want anyone to think I'm advocating Biztalk but I think >realistically it is going to get a significant share of the e-commerce >market and therefore can't be ignored. I'll be very happy if I'm proven >wrong though. > >Steve Oldmeadow > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 16:29:21 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:21 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> <374A2B4B.9E10F84E@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <374AB411.E2B19FB6@locke.ccil.org> Lisa Rein wrote: > This isn't funny. Am I to understand that unless I use IE5, I can't > read anything about BizTalk, and Microsoft doesn't care? Yes, at least to the first point (I don't know what Microsoft's attitude may be). Unfortunately, that happens to be because IE5 follows the standard and Netscape doesn't. An embarrassment all round. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 16:44:17 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> <374AB0CA.F149F564@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <374AB735.89B36971@w3.org> John Cowan wrote: > > James Clark wrote: > > > This is in conformance with the W3C Character Model WD. See > > More specifically, it conforms to the HTML 4.0 recommendation > (http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/appendix/notes.html#h-B.2) which > recommends that user agents should fix up URLs containing > illegal characters. Thanks, I had forgotten that HTML 4.0 already did that; in which case IE5 is correctly carrying out error recovery, in accordance with the HTML 4.0 spec, on an illegal URL. As Appendix B2 makes clear, the actual URL is still illegal; and the document is still wrong; and could be trivially fixed by url encoding the invalid bytes, having first converted the characters to bytes in UTF-8. > Nevertheless, it is an embarrassment that such a site exports > illegal HTML. Well, yes. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com Tue May 25 16:52:20 1999 From: John_Evdemon at freddiemac.com (John Evdemon) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Standards (was RE: Lotsa laughs) Message-ID: <8525677C.0051A4E6.00@freddiemac.com> > a) Sun claim that Java is a standard but still keep control on it. Nice to see someone else pick up on this. I agree that Java is very cool and fun to program in, but its not a standard. John Evdemon Perspective Technology Corp. http://www.perspect.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jesmith at kaon.com Tue May 25 17:16:22 1999 From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374A2B4B.9E10F84E@finetuning.com> References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990525111314.010a5dac@tiac.net> >you guys can't take >over the world if we can't read your propaganda :-) Funniest damn sentence I've read in weeks. Bless you, Lisa. Anyway, my reaction to stuff like this is invariably to ignore it, because it seems like about 98% of the time, the only reason Microsoft ever announces anything is to kill some little company which they've heard is about to make an IPO. So my immediate question is always, "Hmmmm, I wonder what rebel outpost the evil empire is targeting with this death ray..." If Microsoft actually puts something out the door which doesn't immediately crash and burn (or get renamed repeatedly until people start confusing it with a real product produced by another software company, witness "Net Show" come "Media Player" sounds like "Real Player"...), that's when I start to pay attention. Is there some evidence that there is actually something of substance here? (Of course, I use Netscape, so I couldn't read most of the propaganda, either. What I could read had a buzzword to signal ratio so high I couldn't understand a word of it.) Come on, what's the *INSIDE* story? Dish! -Joshua Smith xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 17:21:35 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374ABFCE.13887186@w3.org> Didier PH Martin wrote: > c)W3C is a consortium of several companies and produces "standards". Generally, we claim to produce specifications. Some of thos especifications become Recommendations. Some of those Recommendations become standards (for example, the PNG Recommendation is undergoing standardisation at ISO). > However the W3C composition is mostly American. Certainly, there are a good number of American members. Taking full members, there are currently 44 from the Americas (including South America and Canada), 31 from Europe and Africa, and 14 from Asia and Pacific. Of affiliate members, there are currently 148 from the Americas, 62 from Europe and 30 from Asia and Pacific. The list of W3C members is publically available [1] The demographic seems to be that membership outside the Americas continues to increase. But equally, where are the places with free local phone calls, unmetered access to ISDN, and significant government help in establishing a network infrastructure? It is hardly more surprising then that there is much greater uptake of the Web in the USA than in, for example, France and Germany. And thus, more members of W3C. > Could we say that W3C produces international standards? Our French and Japanese host institutions and our international offices, who gather new members in their respective countries, are certainly helping to redress the balance in terms of international participation. And the Unicode consortium, with which we have close links and at whose conferences I and other W3C staff have spoken on numerous occasions, also seems to think we produce well-internationalised specifications. I don't think it is fair to say that no Americans can help produce internationalised specifications. People like Francois Yergeau, Glenn Adams and Gavin Nicol (three of the four authors of RFC2070, "Internationalization of the HyperText Markup Language") are all based in the Americas (USA and Canada). [The fourth author was Martin Durst, who is Swiss and works for W3C, out of the Japanese host institution.] > d) ISO is an international organism with representative from different > countries. But ISO weight seems to be less and less significant. ISO represents governments, not the international community at large. For example. Tibetan is a language, but was not added into ISO 10646 because Tibet is ruled by China. Only when the Unicode consortium became involved were the characters needed for non-governmental scripts added. (By way of an example). I don't think ISO is insignificant, but it does seem to work best when taking existing well implemented specifications and performing editorial clarifications rather than de-novo technical work. [1] http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Member/List -- Chris British, based in France helping make internationalised specifications for the Web. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 17:24:52 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> <374A2B4B.9E10F84E@finetuning.com> <374AB411.E2B19FB6@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <374AC0C7.5020A89F@w3.org> John Cowan wrote: > > Lisa Rein wrote: > > > This isn't funny. Am I to understand that unless I use IE5, I can't > > read anything about BizTalk, and Microsoft doesn't care? > > Yes, at least to the first point (I don't know what Microsoft's > attitude may be). Unfortunately, that happens to be because > IE5 follows the standard and Netscape doesn't. An embarrassment > all round. The site can be read in Opera, too, which also seems to implement the HTML 4.0 error correction mechanism. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 17:57:32 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374ABFCE.13887186@w3.org> Message-ID: Hi Chris, Thanks for giving more info about W3C composition. You stated that w3c makes specs and this is right but a lot of people treats this as "standard". You also said that some of these specs are brought to ISO for standardization. Good, more of them should follow the same path ;-) It seems that we need more and more a good map of different "standard" institutions and be careful of where we put the tag "standard" and what's behind this word. you said: > I don't think it is fair to say that no Americans can help produce > internationalised specifications. People like Francois Yergeau, Glenn > Adams and Gavin Nicol (three of the four authors of RFC2070, > "Internationalization of the HyperText Markup Language") are all based > in the Americas (USA and Canada). [The fourth author was Martin Durst, > who is Swiss and works for W3C, out of the Japanese host institution.] reply: I understand your point but isn't RFC2070 under IETF? Didier said: > d) ISO is an international organism with representative from different > countries. But ISO weight seems to be less and less significant. Chris said: > ISO represents governments, not the international community at large. > For example. Tibetan is a language, but was not added into ISO 10646 > because Tibet is ruled by China. Only when the Unicode consortium became > involved were the characters needed for non-governmental scripts added. > (By way of an example). > I don't think ISO is insignificant, but it does seem to work best when > taking existing well implemented specifications and performing editorial > clarifications rather than de-novo technical work. reply: Thank for the precision. You are very right on this. ISO represent governments not necessarily communities or conquered countries. I also agree on ISO Speed of action (very slow). We also tend to forget ( the public) what ISO is and what the word "standard" means, or what behind a word like "standard" :-) So, with this perpective should we say that instead of talking of "standard" for a lot of actual technologies we should instead talk of "proposal" or "recommendations"? Thanks Chris for bringing more info on what's behind W3C. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 17:58:03 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <374ABFCE.13887186@w3.org> Message-ID: <374AC8E2.8B1FFC69@locke.ccil.org> Chris Lilley wrote: > ISO represents governments, not the international community at large. More exactly, it represents national standards bodies, only some of which are governmental: ANSI, e.g., is a private U.S. nonprofit. > For example. Tibetan is a language, but was not added into ISO 10646 > because Tibet is ruled by China. Do you have evidence for this story? IMHO Tibetan didn't make it into 10646:1993 because it's a hairy script, not because of Chinese interference. (It is now in by amendment). Unicode got involved between DIS-1 and DIS-2, well before the publication of the unamended standard. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From philipnye at freenet.co.uk Tue May 25 18:18:57 1999 From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Bad entity usage? Message-ID: <374AAA35.267A1FE5@freenet.co.uk> Help - I cannot make out what is wrong with this entity usage: -------------------------- ]> -------------------------- Microsoft IE5 gives an error: "Parameter entities cannot be used inside markup declarations in an internal subset." Is this true? I cannot find any such rule in the XML Rec standard. IE5 is happy if I do it in an external DTD. I would be grateful for any light on this. Philip Nye xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Tue May 25 18:25:09 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > Microsoft have captured the hearts and minds of many people > who do not want > to hear anything bad about Microsoft and these people don't > care about open > standards. To paraphrase one Microsoftian I was talking to > "I just want > products that work together". A lot of people have been burned by > incompatibilities between products using alleged "Internet" > standards and > are now moving back to a one vendor solution. Having trouble keeping up with the incredibly profound depth of this discussion, but am I right in saying that anyone who "wants products that work together" is licking the backside of Bill Gates? Helping his "death-ray"? Phew. Lighten up guys. Someone needs to do BizTalk, or its equivalent - right? If someone else does it, fine - can't say I'll lose much sleep either way. But are businesses who want to exchange data going to start subscribing to this mailing-list? Are they going to monitor xmlschema.com every day? And what of the people who service them? Like it or not, they have probably got more chance of getting up to speed with XML via some of the samples and tools on the Microsoft XML site, than they have by listening to what passes for debate on this list. Anyway, why the panic? One interesting consequence of XML is that companies will become less dependent on software vendors, rather than more. In fact, with industry-specific data interchange formats you could keep using your old COBOL system to handle your data and still transmit it to someone else using the flashiest new stuff. (No offence to COBOL programmers intended.) Two years ago it was not at all clear that that was an option, and people were writing ODBC and JDBC and this and that to get data communicating with data. Or have we forgotten all that? Just as the Internet did before, XML presents an opportunity for people with something interesting to say to go out and make a splash. In fact, I think there is even more room in this field than there was before. But if they don't make this splash then Microsoft will. And whose fault's that? Regards, Mark xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.S.Brothers at EMCIns.Com Tue May 25 18:25:50 1999 From: Michael.S.Brothers at EMCIns.Com (Michael S. Brothers) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: It seems that the word "standard" is a new modern marketing magic wand. what do this means exactly? If W3C has 320 members and claim to produce Didier wrote: <"standards". Does this means that if I get 320 friends (not from the same company) and produce a spec, could this be a "standard"? if not why? Did we forget some historical lessons when at some period of time people where claiming authority based on some "standards", even attributed themselves the right to burn people not conforming to the "standards". So, what this word really mean today? disguised power struggle? Do "standard" really mean "against Microsoft" (this does not necessarily I am for _ and that I have to say this just put more emphasis on the quest to find the real meaning of "standards") ? Do "standard" mean... What this word really means anyway? What is really behind it?> These are some excellent points! As I have read through this list the past several months gauging XML's potential for my industry, one thing that has become clear is that we are far from a "standard" method. What amazes me the most about not only XML, but the growth of the Internet in general is that it has been largely done without governmental interference. There is no standard until the marketplace says there is. Period. Even despite the best efforts of ISO and W3C, this does not stop the bickering over methods and standards (the CSS vs. XSL debate comes quickly to mind, XSchema vs. DTDs, etc). This has led to a "Wild West" (pardon the purely American metaphor) situation where we have gunfights and duels until one person, one way, is left standing. Thus far, Bill Gates has the fastest draw. Still, to propose a standard for e-commerce communications and make it readable in only YOUR latest browser (compliant or not), is the ultimate in hubris ---------------------- Michael S. Brothers Michael.S.Brothers@EMCIns.com 515-362-7473 At this point, I don't think that's the best option. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Tue May 25 18:37:29 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374AC8E2.8B1FFC69@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: I've not followed the discussion carefully on MSIE's handling (correcting) of spaces in the URLs. But it always surprises me how quick Microsoft is to pick up criticism for the kinds of errors that most other companies make (which pass without comment). A lot of W3C member companies have web sites with "illegal" HTML because they use stupid software that generates links like: ... which of course is non-conformant (SGML/XML/HTML) as well. Is it really fun (and "right") to bash MS just because the company is a safe target? -rcc xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 18:37:05 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Bad entity usage? References: <374AAA35.267A1FE5@freenet.co.uk> Message-ID: <374AD223.67F0DE91@locke.ccil.org> Philip Nye wrote: > Help - I cannot make out what is wrong with this entity usage: [example snipped] > Microsoft IE5 gives an error: > "Parameter entities cannot be used inside markup declarations in an > internal subset." > > Is this true? I cannot find any such rule in the XML Rec standard. See clause 2.8, the well-formedness constraint called "PEs in Internal Subset". IE5 is right and you are wrong, alas. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 25 18:45:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: standalone='no' -> standalone='yes' References: <3749D470.1DDB2620@goon.stg.brown.edu> Message-ID: <374AA42E.E8ADE16F@prescod.net> "Richard L. Goerwitz" wrote: > > Has anybody written a general-purpose utility for converting SGML and > XML documents with an external DTD subset and/or external parameter > entities into documents that keep all this information in the internal > DTD subset? I believe that James Clark's SGMLNORM can do that. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 25 18:48:46 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: Short Essay: Squeezing RDF into a Java Object Model References: <3.0.32.19990503121511.017214d0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <374AA43D.F29C3B33@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > Perhaps the key is that I'm not trying to construct a comprehensive > object model - I'm just trying to use metadata to look things up. > I find RDF just fine for that. -Tim But if it isn't possible to build a generic RDF engine then what benefit are you getting from using RDF and not some proprietary encoding of the information? David is trying to scope out what it means to write an RDF engine: in other words what it means to achieve some economies of scale in RDF software development. What you seem to be saying here is analogous to: "SGML isn't too difficult to implement. I made a tags and attributes language that looks like SGML and can be expressed as an SGML subset. I wrote a parser in an afternoon so SGML obviously isn't too difficult to implement." As long as everyone writes their own engines for their own document types, nobody is gaining any benefit from the standardization. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 25 18:54:34 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:22 2004 Subject: CSS and XSL - competition References: <000e01bea5f3$eacb98c0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> Message-ID: <374AA42F.6EE2CDEE@prescod.net> Heikki Toivonen wrote: > > We already have CSS. What we do not have is a good implementation. Here XSL > is doing harm - all the hype moved to XSL which is an important contributor > to the fact that we have not seen complete CSS implementations. Do you have any evidence to this effect? It seems a key point to this entire debate but I don't see any evidence for it. How much of the Mozilla effort has been spent on XSL? As far as I understand their CSS implementation is getting very good but they haven't even started on XSL yet. The "XSL Bounty" will add new resources to the picture: that's a good thing, right? And if we are talking about IE, are you really going to claim that a company with cash reserves rivaling the debt of some countries cannot implement both? Microsoft was slacking off of its responsibility to properly implement CSS before they were even interested in XML. As is often the case, they will implement the minimum required to get by (check out the namespaces implementation!). Note also that IE 5.0 supports proprietary Microsoft CSS extensions. Perhaps they haven't given up on CSS but are merely "embracing" and "extending" it. In any case, that's an issue you should take up with Microsoft, not with the XSL WG. As far as editors go, I know of not one that has an XSL implementation but a couple that have CSS. So where is this resource drain that is killing CSS? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Tue May 25 19:11:09 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Standards: they're de-jure, they're de-facto, they're de-LOVELY! In-Reply-To: References: <374A366E.C6F27E31@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <14154.46764.249630.230524@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > More and more I am getting confused by the word "standard": [... MS, Java, Linux, W3C, ECMA, ISO, etc. ... ] You left out an weird example -- SAX is a very widely-implemented XML API, but it has no owner, no organization promoting it, no press releases, no copyright or terms of usage (it's truly public domain), and no formalized process for development or maintenance. (It also has no proper language-independent spec, but I consider that a bug rather than a feature, and one for which I take personal responsibility.) Essentially, megginson.com donates a little Web space, xml-dev donates a lot of discussion space, and many companies and individuals donate the time from the people who help to discuss and develop SAX. In this regard, SAX is a lot like Linux, except that Linux is GPL'ed and Linus now holds the trademark on the Linux name after a nasty squabble with someone who tried to cash in; SAX is explicitly in the public domain and not copyrighted, copylefted, or trademarked in any way, and relies exclusively on peer-pressure and user demand to ensure conformance. I've never (knowingly) called SAX a 'standard', de facto or de jure. What *is* it? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andyclar at us.ibm.com Tue May 25 19:11:18 1999 From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: <8725677C.005E8708.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com> With the release of the SAX 1.0 API and watching the development of SAX 2.0, we have seen a need to refactor the existing API to share useful function with other XML parsers. Parsers that produce other output such as a DOM tree or JavaBeans would benefit from a standard way of parsing documents, resolving entities, and handling errors. In addition, refactoring the APIs can help solve the problem of allowing for the new 2.0 APIs. The design for SAX is simple, practical, and makes the most sense to borrow from in order to bring the multiple parser worlds together. SAX contains pieces that are useful to all parsers, regardless of whether they provide a streaming API. This proposal details how we would refactor SAX but does not include the new SAX 2.0 APIs. It is assumed that any API can be added once the interfaces and classes are re-organized. The full set of existing API is also not included because of the length of this message already. SECTION 1: Refactoring SAX 1.0 We have separated the SAX 1.0 interfaces and classes into two separate groups: those interfaces and classes that are of use to all parsers, and the other interfaces and classes that are specific to stream-based parsers. General Purpose Interfaces and Classes (before) ====================================== org.xml.sax.EntityResolver org.xml.sax.ErrorHandler org.xml.sax.InputSource org.xml.sax.Locator org.xml.sax.Parser org.xml.sax.SAXException org.xml.sax.SAXParseException org.xml.sax.helpers.LocatorImpl Stream Specific Interfaces and Classes (before) ====================================== org.xml.sax.AttributeList org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler org.xml.sax.DTDHandler org.xml.sax.HandlerBase org.xml.sax.helpers.AttributeListImpl org.xml.sax.helpers.ParserFactory Refactoring these classes would lead to the following possible scenario. These are the interfaces and classes that we have found to be most useful to the various parser communities in writing the IBM XML4J parser. General Purpose Interfaces and Classes (after) ====================================== org.xml.EntityResolver org.xml.ErrorHandler org.xml.InputSource org.xml.Locator org.xml.Parser *org.xml.XMLException *org.xml.XMLParseException org.xml.helpers.LocatorImpl +org.xml.helpers.ParserFactory Stream Specific Interfaces and Classes (after) ====================================== org.xml.sax.AttributeList org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler org.xml.sax.DTDHandler org.xml.sax.HandlerBase *org.xml.sax.SAXParser org.xml.sax.helpers.AttributeListImpl *org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXParserFactory Refactoring in this way also allows DOM-based parsers to share a lot of the same API of SAX parsers. The following list details additional interfaces and classes specific to DOM. DOM Specific Interfaces and Classes (after) =================================== +org.xml.dom.DOMParser +org.xml.dom.helpers.DOMParserFactory The interfaces and classes marked with a plus (+) are new and those marked with an asterisk (*) are renamed to make more general purpose or to remove ambiguity in the name. Modifications would have to done in order to correct for the movement of interfaces and classes from one package to another. The most obvious change would be that the general purpose methods of org.xml.sax.Parser would be moved to org.xml.Parser with the remaining methods being retained in the org.xml.sax.SAXParser interface. SECTION 2: How to Not Break SAX 1.0 Compatibility Unfortunately, keeping the same package name, as detailed in Section 1, will not work well because of the incredibly large number of parsers and apps using those parsers that are already coded to use the existing SAX 1.0 interfaces and classes. I would vote to replace the old classes with the new ones but legacy is a powerful motivational force. A simple solution for not breaking SAX 1.0 compatibility would be to move the new org.xml.sax interfaces and classes into a package named org.xml.sax2. We've discussed the possibility of making the new structure work on top of the old interfaces and classes without modification but we decided against it -- simple is better in most cases. SECTION 3: Incorporating SAX2 Work Incorporation of the ongoing SAX2 work into the refactored SAX interfaces and classes would become simple because the backward compatibility would be separated by package name, as described in Section 2. Users of the old SAX parser and classes would remain unchanged and those users who want to upgrade and make use of the new SAX functionality could make the same changes they would have to make anyway. -- Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyclar@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 19:25:30 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374ADD0E.98FBAD5F@w3.org> Didier PH Martin wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > Thanks for giving more info about W3C composition. You stated that w3c makes > specs and this is right but a lot of people treats this as "standard". > > You also said that some of these specs are brought to ISO for > standardization. Good, more of them should follow the same path ;-) > > It seems that we need more and more a good map of different "standard" > institutions and be careful of where we put the tag "standard" and what's > behind this word. Yes; but on the other hand, if product vendor X announces some new product and describe their new protocil or format (totally proprietary and undocuments) as "the new standard" and it, for exanmple, it covers the same ground as an existing W3C Recommendation, then we do the world no favours if a magazine editor rings us to do a sidebar on the WE3C spec and we don't promote it, in that forum, as being "more standard" than product X. > > you said: > > I don't think it is fair to say that no Americans can help produce > > internationalised specifications. People like Francois Yergeau, Glenn > > Adams and Gavin Nicol (three of the four authors of RFC2070, > > "Internationalization of the HyperText Markup Language") are all based > > in the Americas (USA and Canada). [The fourth author was Martin Durst, > > who is Swiss and works for W3C, out of the Japanese host institution.] > > reply: > I understand your point but isn't RFC2070 under IETF? Three points a) You seemed to be asserting that Americans in general, (and the preponderence of them in W3C) made us incapable of producing internationalised specs and it was that which I was refuting b) RFC 2070 was used by the W3C HTML WG as part of the creation of HTML 4.0 and it was a requirement that HTML 4.0 be completely compliant with that RFC c) The authors all work for W3C member companies, or in one case for W3C itself. In the case of "now works for" I don't think that joining W3C made him suddenly less interested in Internationalisation; if anything, he had more time to devote to the subject. > Thank for the precision. You are very right on this. ISO represent > governments not necessarily communities or conquered countries. I also agree > on ISO Speed of action (very slow). Thats another difference between W3C and ISO - in W3C we are designing stuff, not just ratifying it, and we don't have infinite time to do so, typically a year or less. We typically have a bunch of divergent interests to try and satisfy and we also want it to fit into the framework of existing Recommendations and concurrent work in different working groups, and we want to get buy-in from implementors and web designers.... in less than a year. > We also tend to forget ( the public) > what ISO is and what the word "standard" means, or what behind a word like > "standard" :-) > > So, with this perpective should we say that instead of talking of "standard" > for a lot of actual technologies we should instead talk of "proposal" or > "recommendations"? I would certainly very much like for people to differentuiate between: - a submitted Note, which has no status or commitment to further development; - a working Draft, which is under active development at W3C, and - a Recommendation, which has been reviewed by W3C Members and endorsed by the director. > Thanks Chris for bringing more info on what's behind W3C. I hope it was helpful. To those who are bored with the process stuff, my apologies; I just wanted to set the record straight. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Tue May 25 19:27:47 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: CSS and XSL - competition In-Reply-To: <374AA42F.6EE2CDEE@prescod.net> Message-ID: <001401bea6d4$030f8960$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > Paul Prescod wrote: > Heikki Toivonen wrote: > implementation. Here XSL > > is doing harm - all the hype moved to XSL which is an important > contributor > > to the fact that we have not seen complete CSS implementations. > > Do you have any evidence to this effect? It seems a key point to this > entire debate but I don't see any evidence for it. > > How much of the Mozilla effort has been spent on XSL? As far as I > understand their CSS implementation is getting very good but they haven't > even started on XSL yet. The "XSL Bounty" will add new resources to the > picture: that's a good thing, right? So far XSL effort in Mozilla has been very little. Some people have investigated the code and asserted that it shouldn't be too difficult to add XSL FO support to Mozilla now that CSS is in a good shape (I saw a post a while back that 100% of CSS1 features were in, it just needed bug fixing). But as far as we know, nobody has really tried it either. A couple of days ago we had discussion opening on the APIs needed to implement XSLT processes in Mozilla, but it was a bit bad timing because Michael's article appeared at the same time. The XSL bounty is really too little to draw any serious effort (unless the price has gone up since XTech'99). In any case, I think Mozilla is in a good position now to start thinking about XSL if that is what is wanted. Why? Because it has complete CSS1 support (with a fair amount of CSS2). The style people will be freed from implementing CSS and can move to other tasks if they so wish. I am still not saying I like XSL but at least Mozilla is "morally" in a better situation to implement XSL than any other organization. > And if we are talking about IE, are you really going to claim that a > company with cash reserves rivaling the debt of some countries cannot > implement both? Microsoft was slacking off of its responsibility to You are correct, I was being a bit naive... I thought about this after I had posted but since I saw no replies I thought "oh well". For giant companies it is a not an issue of human resources, but more an issue of politics and finance (as you also imply below). > properly implement CSS before they were even interested in XML. As is > often the case, they will implement the minimum required to get by (check > out the namespaces implementation!). Note also that IE 5.0 supports > proprietary Microsoft CSS extensions. Perhaps they haven't given up on CSS > but are merely "embracing" and "extending" it. In any case, that's an > issue you should take up with Microsoft, not with the XSL WG. Do you think the XSL WG and has suffered from Microsoft embracing XSL? -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 19:30:15 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <374ABFCE.13887186@w3.org> <374AC8E2.8B1FFC69@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <374ADE2A.60628E9B@w3.org> John Cowan wrote: > > Chris Lilley wrote: > > > ISO represents governments, not the international community at large. > > More exactly, it represents national standards bodies, only some > of which are governmental: ANSI, e.g., is a private U.S. nonprofit. Right, but each government can only have one of them, is my point. > > For example. Tibetan is a language, but was not added into ISO 10646 > > because Tibet is ruled by China. > > Do you have evidence for this story? Yes, sure - the Chinese NB didn't ask for Tibetan to be added, in the sense that there was no Chinese national character set standard for Tibetan, and the original 10646 was just a concatenation of existing national standards, so anyone that wasn't an official "nation" got left out. I was just picking that as an example, by the way, to illiustrate the point by analogy about international representation; I don't have a particular axe to grind here. > IMHO Tibetan didn't make it into 10646:1993 because it's a hairy > script, not because of Chinese interference. I didn't say they interfered; I said that they never asked for it and there was no-one else to ask for it, either. Actually, the Irish NB seems to fulfill that role rather nicely nowadays ;-) -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Tue May 25 19:50:07 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Standards: they're de-jure, they're de-facto, they're de-LOVELY! In-Reply-To: <14154.46764.249630.230524@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000b01bea6d7$881660e0$2614fea9@w21tp> > I've never (knowingly) called SAX a 'standard', de facto or de jure. > What *is* it? IMHO, it is a standard in the traditional sense. 1 : a conspicuous object (as a banner) formerly carried at the top of a pole and used to mark a rallying point especially in battle or to serve as an emblem 2 a : a long narrow tapering flag that is personal to an individual or corporation and bears heraldic devices b : the personal flag of the head of a state or of a member of a royal family c : an organization flag carried by a mounted or motorized military unit d : BANNER 3 : something established by authority, custom, or general consent as a model or example : CRITERION 4 : something set up and established by authority as a rule for the measure of quantity, weight, extent, value, or quality 5 a : the fineness and legally fixed weight of the metal used in coins b : the basis of value in a monetary system 6 : a structure built for or serving as a base or support 7 a : a shrub or herb grown with an erect main stem so that it forms or resembles a tree b : a fruit tree grafted on a stock that does not induce dwarfing 8 a : the large odd upper petal of a papilionaceous flower (as the pea) b : one of the three inner usually erect and incurved petals of an iris 9 : a musical composition (as a song) that has become a part of the standard repertoire I particularly like #9 although SAX is more like a good old drinking song. Beers not included, Don xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 20:03:19 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374ADD0E.98FBAD5F@w3.org> Message-ID: Hi Chris, You said: > Yes; but on the other hand, if product vendor X announces some new > product and describe their new protocil or format (totally proprietary > and undocuments) as "the new standard" and it, for exanmple, it covers > the same ground as an existing W3C Recommendation, then we do the world > no favours if a magazine editor rings us to do a sidebar on the WE3C > spec and we don't promote it, in that forum, as being "more standard" > than product X. Reply: And what if W3C compete against other "standard" institutions? And what if this product is documented and the copyright notice explitely express that we can use this spec (We should not forget that all W3C material is copyrighted also).Below are extracts from the W3C copyright notice and an other one from biztalk.org (because this is this thread's origin after all). So, what if someone publish a document with a copyright statement like in the biztalk documents? What if a big bunch of people use and elaborate on this spec? Is it then a "standard"? a de facto "standard"? "an open specification" we can freely implement? maybe is the latter who knows ? ;-) ------------------------ W3C copyright extract: Permission to use, copy, and distribute the contents of this document, or the W3C document from which this statement is linked, in any medium for any purpose and without fee or royalty is hereby granted, provided that you include the following on ALL copies of the document, or portions thereof, that you use: A link or URL to the original W3C document. The pre-existing copyright notice of the original author, if it doesn't exist, a notice of the form: "Copyright ? World Wide Web Consortium, (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Institut National de Recherche en Informatique et en Automatique, Keio University). All Rights Reserved. http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/" (Hypertext is preferred, but a textual representation is permitted.) If it exists, the STATUS of the W3C document. When space permits, inclusion of the full text of this NOTICE should be provided. We request that authorship attribution be provided in any software, documents, or other items or products that you create pursuant to the implementation of the contents of this document, or any portion thereof. No right to create modifications or derivatives of W3C documents is granted pursuant to this license. However, subsequent to additional requirements documented in the Copyright FAQ, modifications or derivatives are sometimes granted by the W3C to individuals complying with those terms. -------------------- Biztalk copyright extract: Microsoft hereby grants to all users of this BizTalk (tm) Framework specification, version 0.8 (the "Specification"), a perpetual, nonexclusive, royalty-free, world-wide right and license under any Microsoft copyrights in the Specification to copy, publish and distribute the Specification. Microsoft further agrees to grant to users a royalty-free license under applicable Microsoft intellectual property rights to implement and use the BizTalk XML tags and schema guidelines included in the Specification for the purpose of creating computer programs that adhere to such guidelines --one condition of this license shall be the party's agreement not to assert patent rights against Microsoft and other companies for their implementation of the Specification. Microsoft expressly reserves all other rights it may have in the material and subject matter of this Specification. Microsoft expressly disclaims any and all warranties regarding this Specification including any warranty that this Specification or implementations thereof does not violate the rights of others Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Tue May 25 20:03:57 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: CSS and XSL - competition In-Reply-To: <374AA42F.6EE2CDEE@prescod.net> Message-ID: <001501bea6d9$0ea019c0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> (Sorry if you receive this twice, I accidentally pressed some unknown combinations of keys and lost the mail I was writing ;) > Paul Prescod wrote: > Heikki Toivonen wrote: > implementation. Here XSL > > is doing harm - all the hype moved to XSL which is an important > contributor > > to the fact that we have not seen complete CSS implementations. > > Do you have any evidence to this effect? It seems a key point to this > entire debate but I don't see any evidence for it. > > How much of the Mozilla effort has been spent on XSL? As far as I > understand their CSS implementation is getting very good but they haven't > even started on XSL yet. The "XSL Bounty" will add new resources to the > picture: that's a good thing, right? So far XSL effort in Mozilla has been very little. Some people have investigated the code and asserted that it shouldn't be too difficult to add XSL FO support to Mozilla now that CSS is in a good shape (I saw a post a while back that 100% of CSS1 features were in, it just needed bug fixing). But as far as we know, nobody has really tried it either. A couple of days ago we had discussion opening on the APIs needed to implement XSLT processes in Mozilla, but it was a bit bad timing because Michael's article appeared at the same time. The XSL bounty is really too little to draw any serious effort (unless the price has gone up since XTech'99). In any case, I think Mozilla is in a good position now to start thinking about XSL if that is what is wanted. Why? Because it has complete CSS1 support (with a fair amount of CSS2). The style people will be freed from implementing CSS1 and can move to other tasks if they so wish (although I guess and hope many will continue work on CSS2). I kind of suspect that if XSL gets to Mozilla its going to be mostly new people to the project doing the work. I am still not saying I like XSL but at least Mozilla is "morally" in a better situation to implement XSL than any other organization. > And if we are talking about IE, are you really going to claim that a > company with cash reserves rivaling the debt of some countries cannot > implement both? Microsoft was slacking off of its responsibility to You are correct, I was being a bit naive... I thought about this after I had posted but since I saw no replies I thought "oh well". For giant companies it is a not an issue of human resources, but more an issue of politics and finance (as you also imply below). Maybe the political part is also more along the tracks Michael thinks about the issue (I really should stop trying to guess what Michael thinks and let him speak himself 'cos he does it so much better... sorry Michael;). > properly implement CSS before they were even interested in XML. As is > often the case, they will implement the minimum required to get by (check > out the namespaces implementation!). Note also that IE 5.0 supports > proprietary Microsoft CSS extensions. Perhaps they haven't given up on CSS > but are merely "embracing" and "extending" it. In any case, that's an > issue you should take up with Microsoft, not with the XSL WG. Do you think the XSL WG and XSL itself has suffered from Microsoft embracing XSL? I'd think the WG has been happy to have an implementation (albeit a'la MS) and the publicity. Even though the WG says they have gone to great pains to keep in sync with CSS they have still not gone out and said "Hey, CSS hasn't been implemented yet. You should really do that first and when things start looking good we'll talk again" or something like that. But maybe I am being naive again. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 20:14:10 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374ADD0E.98FBAD5F@w3.org> Message-ID: Hi Chris, you said: > Three points > a) You seemed to be asserting that Americans in general, (and the > preponderence of them in W3C) made us incapable of producing > internationalised specs and it was that which I was refuting > b) RFC 2070 was used by the W3C HTML WG as part of the creation of HTML > 4.0 and it was a requirement that HTML 4.0 be completely compliant with > that RFC > c) The authors all work for W3C member companies, or in one case for W3C > itself. In the case of "now works for" I don't think that joining W3C > made him suddenly less interested in Internationalisation; if anything, > he had more time to devote to the subject. reply: I never said that american _cannot_ produce good international specs. Read again my words and don't put in my keyboard things I never said. You came to that conclusion yourself. I am just questionning what the word "standard" really mean. And what is really behind that word. This is because it seems that a lot of folks are using this word like other previously used that word to support an opinion, a religion, a market share. I just replied to your example (a bad one). RFC are made under the auspices of IETF and the IETF process or spec creation is not restricted to solely consortium members who paid a fee. It does not show that W3C produces international specs just that IETF does. But I said that I got your point, you just picked the wrong example :-) (And I do not mean that W3C do not make efforts to have a more international composition - Do you want me to repeat it again, so I am sure you understand ;-) I do not pretent that W3C is less international. Don't try to change the focus. The point is: What is really "standard" and what is _really_ behind this word. And when can we say that "this" ( a spec , a document, etc...) is a "standard". You said: > Thats another difference between W3C and ISO - in W3C we are designing > stuff, not just ratifying it, and we don't have infinite time to do so, > typically a year or less. We typically have a bunch of divergent > interests to try and satisfy and we also want it to fit into the > framework of existing Recommendations and concurrent work in different > working groups, and we want to get buy-in from implementors and web > designers.... in less than a year. reply: can you tell us, apart from what you mentionned earlier. What is currently presented from W3C to ISO? Is CSS in the process? is HTML in the process (I heard that yes) can you confirm? Is XML in the process (not as Web SGML but as XML)? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 20:24:28 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:23 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <374ABFCE.13887186@w3.org> <374AC8E2.8B1FFC69@locke.ccil.org> <374ADE2A.60628E9B@w3.org> Message-ID: <374AEB37.90085823@locke.ccil.org> Chris Lilley wrote: > Yes, sure - the Chinese NB didn't ask for Tibetan to be added, in the > sense that there was no Chinese national character set standard for > Tibetan, and the original 10646 was just a concatenation of existing > national standards, so anyone that wasn't an official "nation" got left > out. Oh, okay. If you go back to DIS-1 you are quite correct. > I didn't say they interfered; I said that they never asked for it and > there was no-one else to ask for it, either. Actually, the Irish NB > seems to fulfill that role rather nicely nowadays ;-) Yes. Three cheers for Michael Everson, WG2 Protector of the Weak. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Tue May 25 20:27:25 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: Andy Clark wrote, I think we need a bit more detail, because, on the face of it your proposal *completely* breaks both forwards and backwards compatibility with SAX1. I *presume* that in addition to your proposal you have in mind that a SAX2 parser could also be a SAX1 parser (at least until SAX1 is retired) which would allow SAX1 clients to interoperate with SAX2 parsers. And I *presume* that you envisage an adapter that would allow a SAX1 parser to be presented as a SAX2 parser, allowing SAX2 clients to interoperate with older parsers. If those two assumptions are right, then your proposal looks fairly plausible, with the proviso that updating clients and parsers for SAX2 will involve (admittedly trivial) recoding which could slow migration. I'm not convinced that this is a better bet than simply adding new methods to the old interfaces ... but I have to admit that that approach has its own problems as my own contributions to the various related threads testify. I think that the biggest problems are likely to be namespace and naming issues. In your breakdown of the post-refactoring situation you've put the core classes and interfaces under org.xml. Then in your discussion you write, > A simple solution for not breaking SAX 1.0 > compatibility would be to move the new org.xml.sax > interfaces and classes into a package named > org.xml.sax2. Again, I'm assuming that org.xml is being taken as being preferable to org.xml.sax[2]. Unfortunately, neither of these options are particularly nice. org.xml is problematic, because it limits the scope for other, future, functionally unrelated APIs, to be released in the org.xml namespace. org.xml.sax2 is just plain nasty, and quite likely to be error prone (I'm sure *I*'d forget the '2' quite frequently ;-) Given that you're suggesting, what is, in effect, a completely new API, why don't we go for a namespace that looks something like this, org xml parser EntityResolver ErrorHandler InputSource Locator Parser ParserException (was XMLException) ParseException (was XMLParseException) helpers LocatorImpl ParserFactory stream AttributeList DocumentHandler DTDHandler HandlerBase StreamParser (was SAXParser) helpers AttributeListImpl StreamParserFactory (was SAXParserFactory) dom DOMParser helpers DOMParserFactory sax // SAX1 stuff here helpers // SAX1 stuff here There's no more effort involved in switching over to this namespace structure that the one you've proposed, and it has the advantage that the names are a little more meaningful ... which'd be useful for novices. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 25 20:33:54 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374AE1E8.88624E7@prescod.net> Mark Birbeck wrote: > > Someone needs to do BizTalk, or its equivalent - right? As I understand it, BizTalk is a framework for inter-organization communication. Should a single company be developing the e-commerce equivalent of the Web? Arguably the "real web" beat out Blackbird and the (fictional) World Wide Notes Network because it was deployed first. What if the opposite happens in the e-commerce world? Will we be able to deploy an open system after the fact? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Tue May 25 20:34:47 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) References: <03fd01bea2a6$19f351c0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> Message-ID: <374AE345.152015E4@prescod.net> James Tauber wrote: > > 1. Namespace URIs don't have to point to anything retrievable, they are just > unique identifiers > 2. Some URI schemes might not be web-retrievable (eg "isbn:1-23456-789-0") > 3. Some URI schemes *are* web-retrievable (eg http://www.megginson.com/ns/) > 4. So namespaces URIs *can* point to something, though, such as a > human-readable description of the namespace, if they use a URI scheme that > is web-retrievable. It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not retrievable by the HTTP protocol. I am distressed that this is becoming "standard practice." How the heck are we supposed to know, on seeing a URI whether it is supposed to be retrievable or not? -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Tue May 25 20:40:04 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Standards: they're de-jure, they're de-facto, they're de-LOVELY! In-Reply-To: <14154.46764.249630.230524@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: Hi David, David said: > You left out an weird example -- SAX is a very widely-implemented XML > API, but it has no owner, no organization promoting it, no press > releases, no copyright or terms of usage (it's truly public domain), > and no formalized process for development or maintenance. (It also > has no proper language-independent spec, but I consider that a bug > rather than a feature, and one for which I take personal > responsibility.) > Essentially, megginson.com donates a little Web space, xml-dev donates > a lot of discussion space, and many companies and individuals donate > the time from the people who help to discuss and develop SAX. In this > regard, SAX is a lot like Linux, except that Linux is GPL'ed and Linus > now holds the trademark on the Linux name after a nasty squabble with > someone who tried to cash in; SAX is explicitly in the public domain > and not copyrighted, copylefted, or trademarked in any way, and relies > exclusively on peer-pressure and user demand to ensure conformance. > I've never (knowingly) called SAX a 'standard', de facto or de jure. > What *is* it? Thanks for your point. And yes I would also ask: what is it? a de facto standard? a standard? reply: Good you brought this David. It is not endorsed by W3C nor by ISO or any other institution, but used by a lot of developers who consider it as a "standard". So what is it then? Because it is not blessed by an institution is it a rebel "standard" opposed (imagine a star war scene here) to the "official standard" blessing institution? So what is a "standard" then? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From regan at knowmed.com Tue May 25 20:40:16 1999 From: regan at knowmed.com (regan@knowmed.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: CSS and XSL - competition Message-ID: No doubt there are valid criticisms of XSL in particular contexts. But what seems to be missing in these discussions are those contexts. Both CSS and XSL are useful and I really don't see a "competition" developing in the sense that only one will survive. While it may be true that XSL (or anything else, like Java for example) is getting a lot of hype for applications when other tools can be used, and may even be better options, that doesn't mean that XSL isn't the best option in particular situations. The important part of tool selection is choosing the right one for the right job. We choose to use Smalltalk for our main application development (a electronic medical record system) because its the best language for large application development and maintenance, and likewise we use XML, Java, CSS, XSL etc, etc when its the best tool for the job at hand. Explicitly we use CSS for HTML we display in a browser and we use XSL to transform XML into the HTML and CSS we display. Both tools are needed. -Regan KnowMed Systems xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Ed at dega.com Tue May 25 21:48:29 1999 From: Ed at dega.com (Ed Howland) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: How to create a new document with a DocumentType node (DTD) Message-ID: <30649320C177D111ADEC00A024E9F2971D230B@exchange-server.dega.com> We got stuck. I know the DOM level 1 spec says that editing DocumntType nodes is verbotten, but can't you create one somehow for new documents. What if you are writing an up translator, say from a database and want to make it a valid document, by including either a DTD URI or the complete DOCTYPE entry. What are we missing here? Thanks, Ed Ed Howland ed@dega.com Alpha Geek They didn't put the "." in dot com! xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue May 25 22:33:44 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374B000F.CB95EF8A@finetuning.com> Didier PH Martin wrote: > > More and more I am getting confused by the word "standard": Ah yes but in the case of BizTalk, there is no confusion. 1) There is an XML v 1.0 Recommendation. Can we all agree that at the very lowest, bone-head, most fundamental level, an implementation must conform to this syntax if it is to be considered XML? (boy do i hope so-- or just kill me now because i've been wasting a lot of time on a mirage...) 2) BizTalk does not conform to that recommendation. 3) Ooops! It failed the first test. end of story. It's like saying - hey we'd like to speak english, but we've got this alphabet that's just a little bit different (although we're not going to document exactly how different) -- hey we've got all these other people using it that don't understand the alphabet's different, and if we get enough of them using it quickly enough, we hope that you all will just go ahead and change the alphabet mmmm--ok?) It's a cheap shot from Microsoft, and I don't understand why, because I know that they have perfectly capable XML people there that know how to do things the right way, that in fact have been trying to do things the right way, and apparently there has been some kind of decision from "up top" to take this inferior, really embarrassing approach anyway, and that is unfortunate :-) lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Tue May 25 22:33:46 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <3.0.32.19990524085011.0121a790@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3.0.5.32.19990524223822.009cb100@nexus.polaris.net> <3.0.5.32.19990524234412.009ab860@nexus.polaris.net> <374A1D88.DBD2A1B3@jclark.com> <3.0.1.32.19990525111314.010a5dac@tiac.net> Message-ID: <374B034A.F8BA2FDC@finetuning.com> > > Come on, what's the *INSIDE* story? Dish! > > -Joshua Smith For me, except for all the attention I seem to have given it on this list, the *inside* scoop I'm going to be giving people is to just ignore BizTalk until it *really exists* as a *real* XML application :-) lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jalal at swol.de Tue May 25 22:39:10 1999 From: jalal at swol.de (jalal ) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: On Tue, 25 May 1999 09:23:36 +1000, James Robertson wrote: > >Does no-one bother testing at Micro$oft at all >nowdays? > Isn't that what users are for? jalal xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 22:57:59 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374B0ED3.43BEADAF@w3.org> Didier PH Martin wrote: > > Hi Chris, > > you said: > > Three points > > > a) You seemed to be asserting that Americans in general, (and the > > preponderence of them in W3C) made us incapable of producing > > internationalised specs and it was that which I was refuting > > b) RFC 2070 was used by the W3C HTML WG as part of the creation of HTML > > 4.0 and it was a requirement that HTML 4.0 be completely compliant with > > that RFC > > c) The authors all work for W3C member companies, or in one case for W3C > > itself. In the case of "now works for" I don't think that joining W3C > > made him suddenly less interested in Internationalisation; if anything, > > he had more time to devote to the subject. > > reply: > I never said that american _cannot_ produce good international specs. Read > again my words and don't put in my keyboard things I never said. It appeared to be quite clearly inferred from your choice of juxtaposition. I am happy you have confirmed that this was not your intention. > I am just questionning what the word "standard" really mean. And what is > really behind that word. This is because it seems that a lot of folks are > using this word like other previously used that word to support an opinion, > a religion, a market share. Yes. I agree, it is a word used to describe ,multiple things, from a fully documented and implemented and accepted International Standard down to ... well, anything, really. > I just replied to your example (a bad one). RFC are made under the auspices > of IETF and the IETF process or spec creation is not restricted to solely > consortium members who paid a fee. It does not show that W3C produces > international specs just that IETF does. But I said that I got your point, > you just picked the wrong example :-) (And I do not mean that W3C do not > make efforts to have a more international composition - Do you want me to > repeat it again, so I am sure you understand ;-) No, I am happy enough that yiou clarified it here. > I do not pretent that W3C is less international. Don't try to change the > focus. Sorry I got misled by what you appeared to be saying. Glad you weren't. > The point is: > What is really "standard" and what is _really_ behind this word. And when > can we say that "this" ( a spec , a document, etc...) is a "standard". > > You said: > > Thats another difference between W3C and ISO - in W3C we are designing > > stuff, not just ratifying it, and we don't have infinite time to do so, > > typically a year or less. We typically have a bunch of divergent > > interests to try and satisfy and we also want it to fit into the > > framework of existing Recommendations and concurrent work in different > > working groups, and we want to get buy-in from implementors and web > > designers.... in less than a year. > > reply: > can you tell us, apart from what you mentionned earlier. What is currently > presented from W3C to ISO? HTML 4.0 and PNG 1.0 are well on their way through ISO standardisation. WebCGM is likely to be registered as a Standard Profile of CGM. Other specs are being considered, but some folks want to see the value of transitioning a W3C Rec to IS before investing the effort. > Is CSS in the process? Not currently. > is HTML in the process (I > heard that yes) can you confirm? yes > Is XML in the process (not as Web SGML but > as XML)? Don't know. I have heard contradictory reports and have no firm fdata at this point. -- Chris xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From chris at w3.org Tue May 25 23:16:20 1999 From: chris at w3.org (Chris Lilley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374B133A.C1B0FD41@w3.org> Didier PH Martin wrote: > Chris said: > > Yes; but on the other hand, if product vendor X announces some new > > product and describe their new protocil or format (totally proprietary > > and undocuments) as "the new standard" and it, for exanmple, it covers > > the same ground as an existing W3C Recommendation, then we do the world > > no favours if a magazine editor rings us to do a sidebar on the WE3C > > spec and we don't promote it, in that forum, as being "more standard" > > than product X. > And what if W3C compete against other "standard" institutions? Do you haved any specific examples, or is that a theoretical possibility? > And what if > this product is documented and the copyright notice explitely express that > we can use this spec ( Then it would be what I call a freely available, proprietary standard. Freely available in the sense you can download it and check that everything is actually documented and that it isn't missing some key component. And proprietary in the sense that one company controls the spec and can alter it whenever they see fit > We should not forget that all W3C material is > copyrighted also). Of course. Otherwise, we have no recourse if some third party takes, for example, the XML spec; chages it; copyrights it, and pursues W3C for copyright infringement. > Below are extracts from the W3C copyright notice and an > other one from biztalk.org (because this is this thread's origin after all). OK. Notice that the W3C copyright restricts you from changing the spec (so you can't put it on company X's website and remove the bits that didn't get implemented and claim 100% conformance) and insists on a pointer to the original, so you can check. And as it says we sometimes waive those conditions (for example, to allow folks to translate into other languages, which requires changing the spec). Note that the W3C license relates to the *spec*, the actual textual document. Anyone is free to implement it and W3C will not be going after implementors for royalties or requiring that they sign some license agreement with undisclosed terms; and the practice of "patent placement" (by analogy with "product placement"), where a group make s aspecification with the express intention of forcing people to license certain technology, is highly frowned upon. > So, what if someone publish a document with a copyright statement like in > the biztalk documents? Then you should read it carefully and see precisely what you are agreeing to, beforehand. > What if a big bunch of people use and elaborate on > this spec? Is it then a "standard"? Accordiong to the position for non-magazine-ediotors, no, it isn't. > a de facto "standard"? "an open > specification" we can freely implement? maybe is the latter who knows ? ;-) Sure. I would refer to for example SAX as an open specification that can freely be implemented, and if talking loosely to people who might otherwise wander into vendor-lockdown I might even call it the SAX standard. Small s, of course. -- Chris license extracts left intact for perusal > ------------------------ > W3C copyright extract: > Permission to use, copy, and distribute the contents of this document, or > the W3C document from which this statement is linked, in any medium for any > purpose and without fee or royalty is hereby granted, provided that you > include the following on ALL copies of the document, or portions thereof, > that you use: > > A link or URL to the original W3C document. > The pre-existing copyright notice of the original author, if it doesn't > exist, a notice of the form: "Copyright ? World Wide Web Consortium, > (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Institut National de Recherche en > Informatique et en Automatique, Keio University). All Rights Reserved. > http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Legal/" (Hypertext is preferred, but a textual > representation is permitted.) > If it exists, the STATUS of the W3C document. > When space permits, inclusion of the full text of this NOTICE should be > provided. We request that authorship attribution be provided in any > software, documents, or other items or products that you create pursuant to > the implementation of the contents of this document, or any portion thereof. > > No right to create modifications or derivatives of W3C documents is granted > pursuant to this license. However, subsequent to additional requirements > documented in the Copyright FAQ, modifications or derivatives are sometimes > granted by the W3C to individuals complying with those terms. > > -------------------- > Biztalk copyright extract: > Microsoft hereby grants to all users of this BizTalk (tm) Framework > specification, version 0.8 (the "Specification"), a perpetual, nonexclusive, > royalty-free, world-wide right and license under any Microsoft copyrights in > the Specification to copy, publish and distribute the Specification. > Microsoft further agrees to grant to users a royalty-free license under > applicable Microsoft intellectual property rights to implement and use the > BizTalk XML tags and schema guidelines included in the Specification for the > purpose of creating computer programs that adhere to such guidelines --one > condition of this license shall be the party's agreement not to assert > patent rights against Microsoft and other companies for their implementation > of the Specification. Microsoft expressly reserves all other rights it may > have in the material and subject matter of this Specification. Microsoft > expressly disclaims any and all warranties regarding this Specification > including any warranty that this Specification or implementations thereof > does not violate the rights of others xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Tue May 25 23:36:07 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:24 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <374B133A.C1B0FD41@w3.org> Message-ID: <374B1830.FA04EF07@locke.ccil.org> Chris Lilley wrote: > Of course. Otherwise, we have no recourse if some third party takes, for > example, the XML spec; chages it; copyrights it, and pursues W3C for > copyright infringement. This is a widespread erroneous belief. If something is placed in the public domain by its author (which requires an affirmative act such as "This work is dedicated to the public domain"), then *no one* can claim ownership of it. Anyone who modifies it can copyright only the modifications, and cannot claim infringement by reason of the use of the original document by its author or anyone else. The reason to copyright standards (and to forbid changes) is to prevent the creation of variant forms which might confuse the public. For example, the GNU General Public License may be used by anyone, but no changes are allowed, to prevent the proliferation of subtly incompatible GPLs. Neither can anyone but the author (or the author's employer, under restricted circumstances) claim copyright on any document. The Hill sisters *wrote* "Happy Birthday" (the words, not the melody); they didn't just (despite the legend) copyright it. (The copyright has now expired.) -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From phillips at superior-sdc.com Tue May 25 23:51:20 1999 From: phillips at superior-sdc.com (Sean Phillips) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Job Opportunity Message-ID: Pardon the intrusion! I am a recruiter from Seattle. If anyone is interested or knows anyone interested in XML Development jobs in Seattle please let me know. If this message was inappropriate please pardon me, just trying to network. thanks, Sean Phillips IS Staffing Supervisor Superior Technical Resources/ SDC Computer Services/SDI 425-889-0777 x 231 800-711-8022 www.superior-sdc.com ISO 9002 Certified -----Original Message----- From: Didier PH Martin [mailto:martind@netfolder.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 2:09 PM To: 'XML Dev' Subject: RE: Standards: they're de-jure, they're de-facto, they're de-LOVELY! Hi David, David said: > You left out an weird example -- SAX is a very widely-implemented XML > API, but it has no owner, no organization promoting it, no press > releases, no copyright or terms of usage (it's truly public domain), > and no formalized process for development or maintenance. (It also > has no proper language-independent spec, but I consider that a bug > rather than a feature, and one for which I take personal > responsibility.) > Essentially, megginson.com donates a little Web space, xml-dev donates > a lot of discussion space, and many companies and individuals donate > the time from the people who help to discuss and develop SAX. In this > regard, SAX is a lot like Linux, except that Linux is GPL'ed and Linus > now holds the trademark on the Linux name after a nasty squabble with > someone who tried to cash in; SAX is explicitly in the public domain > and not copyrighted, copylefted, or trademarked in any way, and relies > exclusively on peer-pressure and user demand to ensure conformance. > I've never (knowingly) called SAX a 'standard', de facto or de jure. > What *is* it? Thanks for your point. And yes I would also ask: what is it? a de facto standard? a standard? reply: Good you brought this David. It is not endorsed by W3C nor by ISO or any other institution, but used by a lot of developers who consider it as a "standard". So what is it then? Because it is not blessed by an institution is it a rebel "standard" opposed (imagine a star war scene here) to the "official standard" blessing institution? So what is a "standard" then? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andyclar at us.ibm.com Wed May 26 00:09:02 1999 From: andyclar at us.ibm.com (andyclar@us.ibm.com) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: <8725677C.0074EC6B.00@d53mta06h.boulder.ibm.com> Miles, > I think we need a bit more detail, because, on the > face of it your proposal *completely* breaks both > forwards and backwards compatibility with SAX1. That's pretty much the question that we have to answer: do we completely break the compatibility with the old APIs to design the new SAX right; or do we limit the growth of SAX because of the legacy issue? Creating new packages (and thus new API) *does* make migration an all-or-nothing approach but if the new API has features that people want, then they will switch. > org > xml > parser > EntityResolver > [...] > stream > [...] > StreamParser (was SAXParser) I like your refactorization better! :) It's still clean and separated for everyone to have a standard way of doing things. -- Andy Clark * IBM, JTC - Silicon Valley * andyclar@us.ibm.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ksall at cen.com Wed May 26 00:46:28 1999 From: ksall at cen.com (Sall, Ken) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: ANNOUNCE: WWW8 Trip Report on WDVL Message-ID: <5C32A8840204D3119ADC00A0C9EBCEEF02C6AE@cen3.cen.com> I posted this to xsl-list, but certainly it will be of interest to folks on xml-dev as well. -Ken Sall -----Original Message----- From: Sall, Ken Sent: Tuesday, May 25, 1999 6:36 PM To: 'xsl-list@mulberrytech.com' Subject: ANNOUNCE: WWW8 Trip Report on WDVL I've completed my (long) report on the WWW8, the 8th International World Wide Web Conference. It was just published on Web Developers Virtual Library (http:wdvl.Internet.com). Enjoy! http://wdvl.Internet.com/Internet/Future/ This conference marks the 10th anniversary of the World Wide Web, as measured from the original proposal from 1989. This report is the next best thing to attending the conference. Links to many of the significant presentations and keynotes are augmented by additional links not provided by the speakers. Topics include XML, Signed XML, RDF, XHTML, DOM, DOM2, XSL, XSLT, XSL-FO, CSS1, CSS2, CSS3, CSS-OM, web accessibility, SMIL, XMLNews, UIML, XPages, scalable vector graphics, metadata, querying, searching, linking, multimedia, and the Semantic Web, the name Tim Berners-Lee gives the Web as it enters its second decade. - Ken Sall ksall@cen.com, kensall@home.com, ken@sall.net - AppNet, Inc. http://www.appnet.net - Technology and Integration - XML at Web Dev Virtual Lib http://WDVL.com/Authoring/Languages/XML - Next Generation HTML http://www.CenturyComputing.com/ng-html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 02:13:44 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374B000F.CB95EF8A@finetuning.com> Message-ID: Hi Lisa, You said: ----------------- Ah yes but in the case of BizTalk, there is no confusion. 1) There is an XML v 1.0 Recommendation. Can we all agree that at the very lowest, bone-head, most fundamental level, an implementation must conform to this syntax if it is to be considered XML? (boy do i hope so-- or just kill me now because i've been wasting a lot of time on a mirage...) 2) BizTalk does not conform to that recommendation. 3) Ooops! It failed the first test. end of story. ----------------- reply: ---------------- OK apart from the fact that the site author did not made extensive tests with different browsers. Where biztalk do not not conform to XML? I did some homework ( no preconceived ideas just curiosity) on their spec. And found two documents a) the first document talks about XML document structure. They state that the format is XML and talk about some more specific tags like "route" and "body" and how a e-commerce document should be structured. _But_ they say that the document should follow W3C XML specs. And say that they use XML_data until W3C adopts a formal schema recommendation. So, Where this document failed the test exactly, please be more specific. (I am not arguing just trying to find waht is not conforming to XML W3C recommendation) b) the second document talk about some more tags and also say that the document should be XML compliant as defined in the W3C recommendations (they call it "standard"). So Lisa where Biztalk do not conform to XML? please be more explicit or tell us more if you know more than we do. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From whisper at accessone.com Wed May 26 02:16:28 1999 From: whisper at accessone.com (David LeBlanc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374B000F.CB95EF8A@finetuning.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990525171256.02542130@mail.accessone.com> Ms may have capable xml people.. but it's the marketeers ("program managers") that call the shots at Ms.. In my experience one is lucky if these people have any computer background at all. As an example, one of the program managers for a major educational product from Ms started as a contract proof-reader. Dave LeBlanc At 12:54 PM 5/25/99 -0700, Lisa Rein wrote: >Didier PH Martin wrote: >> >> More and more I am getting confused by the word "standard": > > > >Ah yes but in the case of BizTalk, there is no confusion. > >1) There is an XML v 1.0 Recommendation. Can we all agree that at the >very lowest, bone-head, most fundamental level, an implementation must >conform to this syntax if it is to be considered XML? (boy do i hope >so-- or just kill me now because i've been wasting a lot of time on a >mirage...) > >2) BizTalk does not conform to that recommendation. > >3) Ooops! It failed the first test. > >end of story. > >It's like saying - hey we'd like to speak english, but we've got this >alphabet that's just a little bit different (although we're not going to >document exactly how different) -- hey we've got all these other people >using it that don't understand the alphabet's different, and if we get >enough of them using it quickly enough, we hope that you all will just >go ahead and change the alphabet mmmm--ok?) > >It's a cheap shot from Microsoft, and I don't understand why, because I >know that they have perfectly capable XML people there that know how to >do things the right way, that in fact have been trying to do things the >right way, and apparently there has been some kind of decision from "up >top" to take this inferior, really embarrassing approach anyway, and >that is unfortunate :-) > >lisa > > > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Wed May 26 03:52:43 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <011601bea719$dbb13f80$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Birbeck To: Sent: 26/05/1999 12:18 Subject: RE: Lotsa laughs > Having trouble keeping up with the incredibly profound depth of this > discussion, but am I right in saying that anyone who "wants products > that work together" is licking the backside of Bill Gates? Helping his > "death-ray"? Phew. Lighten up guys. I never said anyone who wants products that work together is licking any part of Bill Gates. Obviously advocates of open standards want all products to work together. My point was that people are rationalising their one eyed attitude to Microsoft on the basis that at least all their products work together (sometimes :) ). > > Someone needs to do BizTalk, or its equivalent - right? If someone else > does it, fine - can't say I'll lose much sleep either way. What we need is an open framework for e-commerce that will realise the promise of EDI. XML and related technologies have a good chance of being the basis for such a framework. Do you think the Internet would have taken off if it was based on NetBEUI or NetBIOS? >Like it or not, they have probably got more chance of getting up to speed with XML via some of the samples >and tools on the Microsoft XML site, than they have by listening to what passes for debate on this list. Sorry the quality of debate isn't up to your standards, however, I'm afraid I can't take anything you say regarding Microsoft too seriously when: 1) Your e-mail domain is iedigital.net - surely a blatant attempt to ride on Microsoft's coat tails; 2) One of the keywords on your web site is Microsoft but no other vendors are listed. Steve Oldmeadow xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Rich.Singer at aris.com Wed May 26 04:31:27 1999 From: Rich.Singer at aris.com (Rich Singer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: searching for search Message-ID: <51D4B406960BD211833600AA00C1EBAD01585F15@hqexch.aris.com> > > > - if all i wanted to do was boolean search on field values with > > > no stemming/concept support, then regardless of how i did the > > > indexing, what is wrong with using standard b-trees and/or just > > > putting the index data in a sql db? > > To make the answer short: depends upon what you want to do. > A slightly longer answer is, if you have 100GB of data that you want > to index in an SQL database then you'd better grab a terabyte of hard > disk and be prepared to wait a LONG time for your queries to come back >to you. There are indexes which will be significantly smaller than the source data. An example is a bitmap index on data with duplicate values. Commercial examples of this can be seen from Sybase IQ, Broadbase and Oracle. A form of bitmap index would probably work very well with some types of XML information. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed May 26 04:59:08 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <010901bea724$42e94e40$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >It strikes me as clearly poor design to use an HTTP url for something not >retrievable by the HTTP protocol. I am distressed that this is becoming >"standard practice." How the heck are we supposed to know, on seeing a URI >whether it is supposed to be retrievable or not? That's my point. I was proposing an HTTP-like URI scheme that *isn't* intended to be retrievable, but TimBL didn't see the need. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Wed May 26 04:59:08 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: CSS and XSL - competition Message-ID: <010801bea724$3f4facc0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >So far XSL effort in Mozilla has been very little. Some people have >investigated the code and asserted that it shouldn't be too difficult to add >XSL FO support to Mozilla now that CSS is in a good shape (I saw a post a >while back that 100% of CSS1 features were in, it just needed bug fixing). >From what I can tell as an XSL FO developer, getting full CSS support gets you *a lot* of the way towards XSL FO support. As I said on xsl-list, most of the hard stuff I've found in implementing XSL FOs would be hard in CSS too. I hope to support CSS "FO"s in FOP at some stage (although given the unification that seems to be happening in XSL, FOP will probably automatically handle CSS FOs by virtue of handling XSL FOs) James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Wed May 26 05:24:11 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Where's the subscription data for the XSL list? In-Reply-To: <010801bea724$3f4facc0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> Message-ID: <000901bea727$f1074060$0a000a0a@csg> I tried looking around ... > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ ...and didn't see what might have been right under my nose so someone send me on my way okay? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 08:09:07 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: XML e-commerce serious? Message-ID: Hi, You can say that business to business to business to governement e-commerce based on XML is gaining momentum when you have such announcements: Touted as A "Must Attend" event for EC professionals - Language of 21st Century Commerce This is a panel and open forum on the latest in business vocabularies and processes - Open Applications Org, cXML, BizTalk, CBL, X12/XML, ICE and others. Want to make sure your organization will be able to "talk the right talk", then this event is the place to be. Learn how to use the language of the 21st century to sell to DoD, or if you are a catalog integrator and want to give your customer's this ability, then this is the place to learn and network. If you know someone who would be interested in the event please pass this message along................................. DLA to host Advanced Technology Track at Electronic Commerce Day The Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) will sponsor a panel discussion in the Advanced Technology Track of the Joint Electronic Commerce Program Office (JECPO) 2nd annual DoD Electronic Commerce Conference. Held on June 10, 1999 at the Ronald Reagan International Trade Center in Washington D.C., the Advanced Technology session will begin with feature presentation on Highly Distributed Processes used in the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Logistics Program to identify and source items. After lunch the track will continue with a ?Language of 21st Century Commerce.? session, with an overview presented by the XML/EDI Group. Language of 21st Century Commerce The session brings together for the first time the major eProcess initiatives currently underway in defining the languages for conducting business in the new millennium. In a one-day event, a high-powered panel of industry visionaries will provide a roadmap for the journey through the various challenges which lie ahead in electronic commerce, enterprise resource planning, supply chain management, agent-mediated procurement, integrated digital environments, collaborative exchanges, legacy interfacing, EC gateways, and advanced logistics. The languages to be discussed are: Product Data Markup Language (PDML) developed by Joint Electronic Commerce Program Office (JECPO); Microsoft BizTalk; cXML (Commerce XML); CBL (Common Business Language); ICE (Information & Content Exchange); The XML/EDI Group Implementation Guidelines; and the efforts of both the Open Applications Group and ANSI X12 EDI Communications and Controls subcommittee on XML. The Panel will include members from JECPO, Microsoft, Oracle, Adobe, GEIS (GE Information Services), CommerceNet and Sterling Commerce. Using XML (eXtensible Markup Language), as a common grammar to build our business languages will enable both Web users and business-to-business electronic processes to exchange and control information seamlessly and automatically. "An XML/EDI framework makes possible large-scale automation of electronic commerce, reduces IT system complexity, and will transform cyberspace. ?The implications to all organizations are nothing short of amazing.? says Bruce Peat, president of eProcess Solutions and co-founder of the XML/EDI Group; a grass roots organization with over 1,200 members. http://www.XMLedi.org As part of the DLA R&D program to advance use of XML technology, companies with on-line electronic catalogs are eligible to participate in the DoD EMALL. The Defense Supply Center Philadelphia will issue a blanket purchase agreement that allows companies to display their products and services to the DoD EMALL customer. The customer can order items from the EMALL using their Government purchase card. The first hand experience gained from using XML in an end to end business process will provide the experience needed influence the technical developments and to obtain maximum benefits from the technology. The Department of Defense?s JECPO sponsors Electronic Commerce Day. This year?s theme, Electronic Business in Action, highlights the use of commercial electronic commerce technology to support the warfighter and streamline business processes. The EC Day General Session includes remarks by The Honorable Dr. John J From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 08:25:36 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Topic Navigation Maps... In-Reply-To: <002301bea659$fefdd220$4f65fea9@fusax> Message-ID: Hi Guy, I am currently working on topic maps and a topic map viewer integrated in a browser (work in progress to be showed soon). As you discovered, topic maps is derived from Hytime and are SGML based. So, I am working on a topic map subset using URLs, URNs and being XML based the Hytime varlink is quite versatile and can support diverse location notations). Michel texts on topic maps ( on the infoloom site) has been useful and I got some help from people at the topic maps mailing list. I think you can register to this list at: http://www.infoloom.com. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Guy Murphy Sent: Monday, May 24, 1999 10:55 PM To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Subject: Topic Navigation Maps... Hi. Is anyone aware of any Topic Navigation Maps out there, as per the ISO 13250 spec? I've read some introductory material, and I'm grasping the overview OK. Now reading through the spec, the nitty gritties just aren't falling into place for me. I'm not sure they're going to in any timely fashion without a gander at an existing topic map. Oh, and while I'm begging pointers, if anybody has a favourite resource on HyTime Linking (something descrete, I've seen the voluminous refs, and they scare me) to recommend my life would I think be complete :) Thanks for any pointers. Cheers Guy xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca Wed May 26 14:33:59 1999 From: Arved_37 at chebucto.ns.ca (Arved Sandstrom) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: Assisted Search of XML document collections In-Reply-To: <199905222016.WAA14780@shirley> Message-ID: On Sat, 22 May 1999, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > On Sat, 22 May 1999, Edward C. Zimmermann wrote: > > And I (Arved) had written: > > That is the stage we are at. I have this gut feeling that we need to > > define what it means to have a search engine operate on let's say 100,00 > > documents marked up using XML, and what are the situations where it might > > make more sense to search a file which describes that collection. > 100K documents is not a problem. Even on consumer PC hardware a modestly performant > fulltext engine can handle typical queries on such a small collection in fractions > of a second. The problem is more (beyond quantity) that information resources > (XML, HTML or whatever) are not always static but dynamic. That's, above all, one > of the fundamental flaws in the brute-force spider/crawl approaches followed by > the major "Internet Engines" (beyond the impact on bandwidth, the half-life of > data, and all the other significant shortcommings). > I don't think I'd quite agree that 100K documents is not a problem. Full-text searches using maybe Boolean expressions, yes, that's fast, but querying based on knowledge of the XML structure, i.e. something like the Perl XML::XQL syntax, I'm sorry, I just don't see that kind of query as shrugging off 100K documents. Part of what I'm trying to do is define when an indexing scheme might be appropriate. I'm leaning towards static or slowly varying. One's definition of either would depend on factors such as how long it takes to index, do already-existing documents change also, is the indexing structure such that new documents can be incrementally added, etc etc. I'm not so sure that indexing, as least as I envisage it, is going to handle millions of changing documents on the Web, for example. > > > > Your best contribution would be to describe a business problem and tell us > > how you like to solve it. > Different problems, different methods, different tools. > > Lets turn the tables, since I'm the confused soul, can you explain a bussiness > problem and tell us how you might plan to "solve it".... > > Sure. We put in a tender to supply document management to the local provincial natural resources people, specifically the survey and mapping types. We looked at perhaps 500K to 1M documents, of which (if I recall aright) perhaps 75% were very amenable to being scanned in, zone-OCR'ed, and had enough structure to make them very suitable XML candidates. Maybe 5 DTD's could have described that 75%. You understand that I'm describing a tender a few years old, and that XML wasn't on *anybody's* mind at the time. I'm think of it now, though, as a situation where XML would be really appropriate for allowing the kinds of searches these guys wanted to do. Plus they wanted to eventually make much of this info available via the Web, or run off paper copies; again, XML markup seems just right, and convert into other formats as required. OK, as to searching and indexing. Of the "searchable" documents I describe, all were static - they were *records*. Probably the number of similar documents added in a given year would be 3-5% of the existing archive. So an index would be a very manageable thing, and would rarely change. So, you understand, my viewpoint is record-centric. That's why I'm asking for input. Arved xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From malliks at rocketmail.com Wed May 26 15:51:52 1999 From: malliks at rocketmail.com (Mallikarjuna Sangappa) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:25 2004 Subject: DTDs Message-ID: <19990526134403.24471.rocketmail@web4.rocketmail.com> I would like to have examples on the following 1. nested DTDs 2. two DTDs used within a document 3. nested DTDs used within a document Are the above scenarios possible? Thanks in advance. CU, Malliks _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed May 26 15:51:56 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: [Note: resend. xml-dev@majordomo.ic.ac.uk seems to be a bit touchy at the mo'] Andy Clark wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote, > > I think we need a bit more detail, because, on the > > face of it your proposal *completely* breaks both > > forwards and backwards compatibility with SAX1. > > That's pretty much the question that we have to > answer: do we completely break the compatibility with > the old APIs to design the new SAX right; or do we > limit the growth of SAX because of the legacy issue? Well, in its favour, your proposal would allow for adapter classes (SAX1->SAX2 and SAX2->SAX1) which lessens the impact somewhat. In line with the new naming scheme we would probably want to introduce some new system properties, org.xml.parser.stream Name of stream parser class org.xml.parser.dom Name of dom parser class Consequently we could provide a SAX1 to SAX2 parser adapter as follows. A SAX2 client app that wants to interoperate with a SAX1 parser could define org.xml.parser.stream as, eg. org.xml.parser.compat.SAX1Adapter and org.xml.sax.parser as, com.foo.sax.LegacyParser SAX1Adapter could be defined as thus, public class SAX1Adapter implements org.xml.parser.stream.Parser { private org.xml.sax.Parser itsAdaptee; public SAX1Adapter() { itsAdaptee = org.xml.sax.helpers. ParserFactory.makeParser(); } // SAX2 parser methods forwarded to contained // SAX1 parser. Note there'd need to be // some juggling of argument types (because // they'll have shifted packages too) but // nothing particularly difficult. } The SAX1 ParserFactory would resolve the SAX1 Parser implementation via the old SAX1 system property. Going in the opposite direction a SAX1 client app that wants to use a SAX2 parser could set org.xml.sax.parser to, org.xml.parser.compat.SAX2Adapter and org.xml.parser.stream.parser as, com.foo.sax.NewParser We then define SAX2Adapter similarly, public class SAX2Adapter implements org.xml.sax.Parser { private org.xml.parser.stream.Parser itsAdaptee; public SAX2Adapter() { itsAdaptee = org.xml.parser.stream.helpers. ParserFactory.makeParser(); } // SAX1 parser methods forwarded to contained // SAX2 parser. Note there'd need to be // some juggling of argument types (because // they'll have shifted packages too) but // nothing particularly difficult. } Incidently, I'm quite keen on the DOM parser stuff. That'd ease some of the problems that the DOMs current lack of a portable way of creating Documents causes. > I like your refactorization better! :) It's still > clean and separated for everyone to have a standard > way of doing things. That ain't refactoring (not in my book anyway) I just changed a few of the names ;-) Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Wed May 26 15:58:21 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: Steve Oldmeadow wrote: > Sorry the quality of debate isn't up to your standards, > however, I'm afraid > I can't take anything you say regarding Microsoft too seriously when: > 1) Your e-mail domain is iedigital.net - surely a blatant > attempt to ride on > Microsoft's coat tails; > 2) One of the keywords on your web site is Microsoft but no > other vendors > are listed. Mmm ... sort of proves my point about the quality of debate. I notice also that if you write your name upside down and take the first and last letters you get MS ... ;-) I can't help thinking a lot of this Microsoft discussion is a bit of sour grapes. A few years ago a friend of mine decided to leave the UK with the money he had made from an Internet venture here, and head for Seattle. He was going to set up a service that allowed people to locate sites by entering a few words into their web browser, rather than a full URL. I said to him he was mad, because although I agreed that domain naming was not very user-friendly, surely someone would sort it out before he had the chance. Wouldn't the standards authorities or search engine people or Netscape or Microsoft or someone - anyone else but a little guy from the UK? Well, off Keith went and set up Centraal, and established RealNames - and they do seem to have got a lot of people to listen, including Alta Vista and Network Solutions. Of course the story isn't over yet, but they seem to be doing alright so far. My point is that the Internet is still wide open, despite what everyone says. As I said in my previous message, XML actually opens the whole thing up even more, not less, since anyone can put a layer over applications to hide their specific interface. And the moaning about MS is getting a little bit boring now. If you have a great idea - do it. And if in 6 months time MS are doing it instead - as I said before - whose fault is that? Best regards, Mark Birbeck Mark.Birbeck@iedigital.net Intra Extra Digital Ltd. http://www.iedigital.net/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ldodds at ingenta.com Wed May 26 16:19:59 1999 From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000801bea783$06a3b920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> > Incidently, I'm quite keen on the DOM parser stuff. > That'd ease some of the problems that the DOMs > current lack of a portable way of creating Documents > causes. While we're at it, why not add some additional DOM utilities, like writing out a DOM to disk, etc. Overall I really like this refactoring approach. Interested what David has to say though... L. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Wed May 26 16:31:51 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: Leigh Dodds wrote, > Miles Sabin wrote, > > Incidently, I'm quite keen on the DOM parser stuff. > > That'd ease some of the problems that the DOMs > > current lack of a portable way of creating Documents > > causes. > > While we're at it, why not add some additional DOM > utilities, like writing out a DOM to disk, etc. I think we should hold off on that until DOM level 2 gets a little closer to completion. In any case I don't think that org.xml.*parser*.dom ought to be polluted with non-parsing functionality. That said, it does look like we have a nice convenient space under org.xml.dom to put Java specific DOM extensions and utilities. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Michael.Kay at icl.com Wed May 26 17:00:50 1999 From: Michael.Kay at icl.com (Kay Michael) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEAB@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> > I do not say that one is better than the other. Just ask: > what do the word "standard" means now. What is behind this word? At the Computer Laboratory in Cambridge there used to be a gents' lavatory with five urinals. Four of them were identical, the other was inscribed with the brand name "Ideal Standard". Michael Kay. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Wed May 26 18:39:10 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Weighing in on XSL / Standards Message-ID: <009a01bea78e$9ba97040$39f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> From: Tim Bray >At 10:20 PM 5/24/99 +1000, Rick Jelliffe wrote: >>Dave has mentioned that DSSSL was only partly implemented, but it should >>be emphasized that this does not mean a failure in the DSSSL >>specification: > >I couldn't disagree more. A standard which goes unimplemented is not >only a failed standard but actively damaging, as it weakens the arguments >for standards-based development. -Tim When DSSSL was in draft, the was a suggestoin to add a profile system to allow simpler named subsets. But the DSSSL working group did not seem to see exchange of DSSSL code between different implementations (which might benefit from a profile system) as a high user requirement for DSSSL--it wasn't a networked stylesheet language but a processing language whose scripts would be largely custom-written for a particular site, system, application and implementation: from what I gathered they saw DSSSL as a syntax and a flow-object smorgasbord from which vendors would create products by picking the bits that fitted in with their individual markets. Presumably convergence and conformance would come under the influence of market forces. I agree that a standard with all parts mandatory is weakened by unimplemented parts. But a vocabulary is not weakened in the same way. Ironically, the excellence, price and coding of Jade will disuade other people from implementing alternate DSSSL processors; so the smorgasbord has only had one guest. Rick xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From andrewl at microsoft.com Wed May 26 19:40:31 1999 From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs (was Re: XLink: behavior must go!) Message-ID: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> Regarding the discussion on non-retrievable URIs, you may want to look into the URN spec, and more generally, at the paper "Naming and Addressing: URIs, URLs, ... " at http://www.w3.org/Addressing/. Best wishes, Andrew Layman Microsoft xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 19:47:18 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <93CB64052F94D211BC5D0010A800133170EEAB@wwmess3.bra01.icl.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Kay, That's a good definition :-))) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: Kay Michael [mailto:Michael.Kay@icl.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:02 AM To: 'Didier PH Martin'; 'XML Dev' Subject: RE: Lotsa laughs > I do not say that one is better than the other. Just ask: > what do the word "standard" means now. What is behind this word? At the Computer Laboratory in Cambridge there used to be a gents' lavatory with five urinals. Four of them were identical, the other was inscribed with the brand name "Ideal Standard". Michael Kay. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 19:47:45 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: XML e-commerce serious? In-Reply-To: <374C0D0C.26919999@pobox.com> Message-ID: Hi Jonathan, Here is the link (note that this is mainly organised by the military institution as you'll notice by the link) PS: notice that Oracle, Netscape and Microsoft (with biztalk :-) will be present to show their respective technologies. http://www.acq.osd.mil/jecpo/ecday99/ regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: eisen@tsunami.wwind.com [mailto:eisen@tsunami.wwind.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan Eisenzopf Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 11:03 AM To: Didier PH Martin Subject: Re: XML e-commerce serious? Didier PH Martin wrote: > Nice, but where can one find out more info? > Hi, > > You can say that business to business to business to governement e-commerce > based on XML is gaining momentum when you have such announcements: > > Touted as A "Must Attend" event for EC professionals - Language of 21st > Century Commerce > > This is a panel and open forum on the latest in business vocabularies and > processes - Open Applications Org, cXML, BizTalk, CBL, X12/XML, ICE and > others. Want to make sure your organization will be able to "talk the > right talk", then this event is the place to be. Learn how to use the > language of the 21st century to sell to DoD, or if you are a catalog > integrator and want to give your customer's this ability, then this is the > place to learn and network. If you know someone who would be interested in > the event please pass this message along................................. > > DLA to host Advanced Technology Track at Electronic Commerce Day > > The Defense Logistics Agency (DLA) will sponsor a panel discussion in the > Advanced Technology Track of the Joint Electronic Commerce Program Office > (JECPO) 2nd annual DoD Electronic Commerce Conference. > > Held on June 10, 1999 at the Ronald Reagan International Trade Center in > Washington D.C., the Advanced Technology session will begin with feature > presentation on Highly Distributed Processes used in the Defense Advanced > Research Projects Agency (DARPA) Advanced Logistics Program to identify and > source items. After lunch the track will continue with a ?Language of 21st > Century Commerce.? session, with an overview presented by the XML/EDI Group. > > Language of 21st Century Commerce > The session brings together for the first time the major eProcess > initiatives currently underway in defining the languages for conducting > business in the new millennium. In a one-day event, a high-powered panel of > industry visionaries will provide a roadmap for the journey through the > various challenges which lie ahead in electronic commerce, enterprise > resource planning, supply chain management, agent-mediated procurement, > integrated digital environments, collaborative exchanges, legacy > interfacing, EC gateways, and advanced logistics. > > The languages to be discussed are: Product Data Markup Language (PDML) > developed by Joint Electronic Commerce Program Office (JECPO); Microsoft > BizTalk; cXML (Commerce XML); CBL (Common Business Language); ICE > (Information & Content Exchange); The XML/EDI Group Implementation > Guidelines; and the efforts of both the Open Applications Group and ANSI X12 > EDI Communications and Controls subcommittee on XML. The Panel will include > members from JECPO, Microsoft, Oracle, Adobe, GEIS (GE Information > Services), CommerceNet and Sterling Commerce. > > Using XML (eXtensible Markup Language), as a common grammar to build our > business languages will enable both Web users and business-to-business > electronic processes to exchange and control information seamlessly and > automatically. "An XML/EDI framework makes possible large-scale automation > of electronic commerce, reduces IT system complexity, and will transform > cyberspace. ?The implications to all organizations are nothing short of > amazing.? says Bruce Peat, president of eProcess Solutions and co-founder of > the XML/EDI Group; a grass roots organization with over 1,200 members. > http://www.XMLedi.org > > As part of the DLA R&D program to advance use of XML technology, companies > with on-line electronic catalogs are eligible to participate in the DoD > EMALL. The Defense Supply Center Philadelphia will issue a blanket > purchase agreement that allows companies to display their products and > services to the DoD EMALL customer. The customer can order items from the > EMALL using their Government purchase card. The first hand experience > gained from using XML in an end to end business process will provide the > experience needed influence the technical developments and to obtain maximum > benefits from the technology. > > The Department of Defense?s JECPO sponsors Electronic Commerce Day. This > year?s theme, Electronic Business in Action, highlights the use of > commercial electronic commerce technology to support the warfighter and > streamline business processes. > > The EC Day General Session includes remarks by The Honorable Dr. John J xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Wed May 26 21:28:54 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374C5113.BA4FA67C@finetuning.com> First of all, I really do not mean to prolong this thread -- in my opinion we've all wasted too much time and energy on what amounts to nothing more than marketing banter as it is. But alas, I am the current culprit for keeping this going with my comment about XML version 1.0 non-compliance. And at this point, after the time and energy that this response has taken me, I really would like to know if my technical arguments hold up to you expert-types :-) so here I go: --in summary, Didier PH Martin asked me: What did i mean when i said that BizTalk schemas do not conform to the XML v. 1.0 Recommendation? (citing some examples from the BizTalk site)-- As far as your references to specifics on the BizTalk site go, I am still unable to get to those files without using IE5 - which I will get to eventually I suppose when I build up enough microsoft site-specific tasks to do so (how i've been handling the MS site for some time now since it seems the company has decided to require its own browser for a readible version of its site's content). But let's just say for the sake of argument that the examples on the site were well-formed XML -- my question is this: Just because the DOCUMENT examples they show are well-formed XML, isn't it the SCHEMAS that would be validating those documents that would be "breaking" the current implementations? It was my understanding that, at this time, any schema syntax-based validation-mechanism, by definition, does not conform to the XML v. 1.0 Recommendation. Is this not true? Said another way: Since a currently-implemented, XML v. 1.0-compliant validating parser would not be able to use a BizTalk schema to validate documents (since BizTalk schemas use syntax that is not specified in the version 1.0 Recommendation), wouldn't such an existing XML v. 1.0-compliant parser implementation "break" as a result, unless its creators had also implemented whatever additional, non-standard (and therefore proprietary) software that BizTalk requires? Wouldn't a more "compliant" BizTalk strategy be to have BizTalk using DTDs for now, which could then upgraded to schemas (when everyone else upgrades to schemas) as soon as a proper XML Schema Recommendation becomes available. That way, developers wouldn't have to choose one schema syntax over another (and at the expense of being incompatible with everything else) because the schema syntaxes would all be compatible - with each other AND early implementations that used the BizTalk DTDs for validation. Also, on a less technical, more practical note: Why would anyone want to put time into using the BizTalk schemas if they know are going to just have to redo them again when Microsoft, in good faith, changes the BizTalk schemas over to the W3C's Schema syntax? Or the reverse of that would be - why would a microsoft-centric developer want to ever bbother changing over to the proper W3C syntax if they know that Microsoft will continue to build support for the original proprietary syntax into their products in order to keep them all backwards-compatible with the early implementations? (something MS swears by) Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema syntax for now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost year ago? BizTalk isn't due out till third quarter 99 -- how perfect, neither is the XML Schema Proposed Recommendation -- how about developing the BizTalk schemas in conjunction with the Schema Working Group at the W3C so they are sure to match?! Hey! THERE's an idea! That's really what my peeve is with this whole situation. Microsoft is in the W3C -- it has people on the schema working group -- why continue to develop BizTalk behind closed doors? Sorry, again, for the long-winded response, but as you can see, I still have trouble expressing my thoughts on some of these more technical issues without over-articulating a bit... thanks for putting up with me :-), lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From spreitze at parc.xerox.com Wed May 26 21:55:43 1999 From: spreitze at parc.xerox.com (Mike Spreitzer) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374C5113.BA4FA67C@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <003201bea7b1$ea262150$1776020d@phobos.parc.xerox.com> > As far as your references to specifics on the BizTalk site go, I am > still unable to get to those files without using IE5 ... I recognize that your argument doesn't rest on actually reading these, but I thought I'd mention the following. Actually, IE4 works too. And it displays the URLs in escaped form. Here are the escaped URLs for the 0.8 spec: and . Of course, anyone who wanted to could manually fix up the URLs themselves. Mike (not a M$ bootlick, just trying to get the discussion past unnecessary sticking points) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david-b at pacbell.net Wed May 26 22:04:21 1999 From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: Message-ID: <374C53D6.23E4CC04@pacbell.net> Didier PH Martin wrote: > > The best thing > is to help us by reporting the problem to Mozilla.org so that this > deficiency is corrected. ... and of course, for the folk at biztalk.org to stop delivering such broken content in the first place, which is the act which in the near term is most constructive. It's no fun seeing web pages that Lynx chokes on ... :-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Wed May 26 22:04:07 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:26 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <374C5113.BA4FA67C@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <374C541C.D21E874A@locke.ccil.org> Lisa Rein wrote: > As far as your references to specifics on the BizTalk site go, I am > still unable to get to those files without using IE5 - which I will get > to eventually I suppose when I build up enough microsoft site-specific > tasks to do so (how i've been handling the MS site for some time now > since it seems the company has decided to require its own browser for a > readible version of its site's content). That problem arises because part of the content of biztalk.org is expressed using non-compliant HTML. It has nothing to do with XML compliance. > But let's just say for the sake of argument that the examples on the > site were well-formed XML -- my question is this: Just because the > DOCUMENT examples they show are well-formed XML, isn't it the SCHEMAS > that would be validating those documents that would be "breaking" the > current implementations? That's absurd. You might as well say that SMIL "breaks" XML because it imposes additional restrictions. No, an XML-1.0-compliant parser can't tell you whether a given document is SMIL. Why should it be able to? As long as SMIL documents are well-formed XML (they are), there is no problem. > It was my understanding that, at this time, > any schema syntax-based validation-mechanism, by definition, does not > conform to the XML v. 1.0 Recommendation. Is this not true? The XML 1.0 Rec does not *prescribe* any validation mechanism other than DTDs. Applications can, should, and must require validation above what DTD-validation provides. > Said another way: Since a currently-implemented, XML v. 1.0-compliant > validating parser would not be able to use a BizTalk schema to validate > documents (since BizTalk schemas use syntax that is not specified in the > version 1.0 Recommendation), wouldn't such an existing XML v. > 1.0-compliant parser implementation "break" as a result, unless its > creators had also implemented whatever additional, non-standard (and > therefore proprietary) software that BizTalk requires? "Nonstandard" does not mean proprietary. SAX is not a standard, but it is hardly proprietary. > Wouldn't a more "compliant" BizTalk strategy be to have BizTalk using > DTDs for now, Biztalk restrictions may not be expressible using DTDs, which would not be a deficiency. The rules that specify RDF aren't specifiable by a DTD either. > That way, developers wouldn't have to choose one > schema syntax over another (and at the expense of being incompatible > with everything else) because the schema syntaxes would all be > compatible - with each other AND early implementations that used the > BizTalk DTDs for validation. As long as the W3C-compliant schemas and the Microsoft schemas have the same meaning, one may freely create Biztalk-compliant documents without fear that they will change meanings. > Also, on a less technical, more practical note: Why would anyone want to > put time into using the BizTalk schemas if they know are going to just > have to redo them again when Microsoft, in good faith, changes the > BizTalk schemas over to the W3C's Schema syntax? Distinguish between the syntax of Biztalk documents themselves, and the syntax used to express the schemas that describe them. > Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema syntax for > now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C > member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost year ago? Maybe they don't understand the current Schema draft yet, not to mention it is imcomplete as of now. -- John Cowan http://www.ccil.org/~cowan cowan@ccil.org You tollerday donsk? N. You tolkatiff scowegian? Nn. You spigotty anglease? Nnn. You phonio saxo? Nnnn. Clear all so! 'Tis a Jute.... (Finnegans Wake 16.5) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 22:56:22 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374C5113.BA4FA67C@finetuning.com> Message-ID: Hi Lisa, -------------------- Lisa said: Said another way: Since a currently-implemented, XML v. 1.0-compliant validating parser would not be able to use a BizTalk schema to validate documents (since BizTalk schemas use syntax that is not specified in the version 1.0 Recommendation), wouldn't such an existing XML v. 1.0-compliant parser implementation "break" as a result, unless its creators had also implemented whatever additional, non-standard (and therefore proprietary) software that BizTalk requires? Didier say: After reading a second time the documents, it is not said if a DTD is provided or not. If no DTDs are provided, a validating parser won't work. But at this stage we do not know if biztalk will or will not provide DTDs for each type of documents. However, from the video presentation it seems that all document type are based on former work like for instance HL7 (which has a DTD). Because they add a document envelope in the form of a and fragments, they could provide a modified DTD for each new document. But this brings a new problem for dynamically created documents like it could be possible with e-commerce documents. The final document is composed of an envelope and an other document contained in it (EX: the envelope, a catalog request and a purchase order). The resultant document being a XML document. When a XML document is composed of other XML documents, how can we then get a DTD for the resultant document? Do schemas will resolve the problem? A story to follow.... ---------------- ---------------- Lisa said: Wouldn't a more "compliant" BizTalk strategy be to have BizTalk using DTDs for now, which could then upgraded to schemas (when everyone else upgrades to schemas) as soon as a proper XML Schema Recommendation becomes available. That way, developers wouldn't have to choose one schema syntax over another (and at the expense of being incompatible with everything else) because the schema syntaxes would all be compatible - with each other AND early implementations that used the BizTalk DTDs for validation. Didier say: This could be a temporary solution indeed. I guess from what I saw that it could be possible to create a DTD that includes the envelope and the transaction document. At least this DTD could be posted to XML.org. But this does not resolve the problem of composing a document with several transactions in it (a transaction being itself a XML document). Or, the DTD should include all possible transactions ( a big jumbo DTD :-) -------------- -------------- Lisa said: Also, on a less technical, more practical note: Why would anyone want to put time into using the BizTalk schemas if they know are going to just have to redo them again when Microsoft, in good faith, changes the BizTalk schemas over to the W3C's Schema syntax? Or the reverse of that would be - why would a microsoft-centric developer want to ever bbother changing over to the proper W3C syntax if they know that Microsoft will continue to build support for the original proprietary syntax into their products in order to keep them all backwards-compatible with the early implementations? (something MS swears by) Didier say: You have a point there Lisa. But again, how do we cope with document composed of multiple transactions? (a jumbo DTD?) -------------- -------------- Lisa said: Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema syntax for now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost year ago? BizTalk isn't due out till third quarter 99 -- how perfect, neither is the XML Schema Proposed Recommendation -- how about developing the BizTalk schemas in conjunction with the Schema Working Group at the W3C so they are sure to match?! Hey! THERE's an idea! Didier reply: Keeping in synch with W3C is quite hard when the target is moving. They have shipping constraints so they picked the last proposal until a) this format becomes a de facto standard or b) the W3C schema takes off. (I am not defending Microsoft here - just saying that they cannot wait that W3C is ready). After all, they don't know when the schema spec will be turned into recommendation. The problem could be if big companies like SAP, Baans or peoplesoft choose to include only the old schema reference. This could impose how we send transaction to big corporations. However, I am sure that for government transactions, standards will be required (Warning: for government ISO creates standards, W3C do not necessarily creates standards). However, if we all agree on e-commerce repositories and the value of these repositories (like for instance xml.org) then these repositories will call the shot for normalized document specifications. --------------- --------------- Lisa said: That's really what my peeve is with this whole situation. Microsoft is in the W3C -- it has people on the schema working group -- why continue to develop BizTalk behind closed doors? didier reply: I guess that to get some equilibrium, repositories like xml.org should publish document specification rules and how we refer to these document specifications. We'll see that quite soon when the military institution will call the shot how we do e-commerce with them. There is a high probability that the whole government will follow the same rules. So, Lisa the problem is a bit more complex than simple technical examination. a) The US government actually uses EDI standards (either international or national) b) Some big corporations also uses EDI standards c) The government is actually studying to move to XML (SGML) based transactions. If XML is chosen then they'll give us rules to follow. The d) As discussed in the XML-EDI group, a lot of companies want to move toward XML for B2B transactions. e) Again, several groups ask for non manufacturer dependent repositories where transactions document specification will be stored. Documents will have to follow the repository rules to be valid. The governement will have its own repository and private business will have probably more than one (I hope we will all agree on one). f) A lot of people involved in XML-EDI are facing a dilemma. W3C is not ready with a schema spec so the void is filled by some manufacturers. g) most of people involved in XML_EDI think that an independent institution is needed but should not be W3C but more an international standard organization like ISO. However the ISO process is slow. Conclusion: The DTD problem and document validation is only part of the problem and we are actually facing a lot of issues to be resolved in order that all parties recognize that a transaction is valid. XML.org, resetta.net, eco and others try to create conventions on which all parties will have to agree. One thing remain, a DTD is insufficient. We also need: a) reliable repositories and document specification conventions and references b) way to tell that this transaction is really from the one who claim being the transaction initiator (The community have to agree on an authentication method) c) We won't have a simple universe, so there will be more than one document specification for the same kind of transaction. So we'll need official translation form a transaction format to an other and repository where these rule are stored. d) And finally interpreters or parsers+interpreters that can validate a document and interface with back ends ERP. Actually DTD is insufficient to provide all necessary information, Schema is not yet a recommendation. Time is clicking and corporation want to take position in this new rat race. So...I am not so sure that only DTD will resolve the problem especially when you dynamically compose a new XML document from XML document (EX: a transaction that includes a request for a catalog and a purchase order - two different documents merged into one). The DTD would have to be dynamically created as the document is. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 26 23:00:39 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: <000801bea783$06a3b920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> References: <000801bea783$06a3b920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> Message-ID: <14156.24493.914825.911719@localhost.localdomain> Leigh Dodds writes: > While we're at it, why not add some additional DOM > utilities, like writing out a DOM to disk, etc. > > Overall I really like this refactoring approach. > > Interested what David has to say though... I think that it might raise SAX up a little too high -- SAX is designed to be a simple, very low-level parser interface, like a device driver in Unix or Windows; it was not meant to become a general XML-processing infrastructure. Personally, I always expected that people would build more sophisticated stuff like SAXON on top of SAX. One of the reasons that SAX succeeded is that it stayed simple and kept out of people's faces. Personally, I still fantasize about a new version of SAX with even fewer handlers and callbacks, since there are really only five things that 98% of XML applications have to know about: - elements - attributes - character data - processing instructions - errors Unfortunately, XML 1.0 (and the current Infoset WD) won't let me get away with that. By the way, how many SAX implementors have ever used the SAX 1.0 DTDHandler interface in a real-world installation? The XML 1.0 spec requires processors to report the information in that interface, but I'd be very interested to know about actual usage patterns. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 26 23:02:17 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14156.24915.66227.244411@localhost.localdomain> Miles Sabin writes: > That said, it does look like we have a nice convenient space under > org.xml.dom to put Java specific DOM extensions and utilities. For the record, Jon Bosak gave us permission to use the org.xml.sax.* branch for SAX; he has since donated the xml.org domain to OASIS, and any decisions about org.xml.* packages other than org.xml.sax.* will have to be approved by that organization. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 23:11:02 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374C53D6.23E4CC04@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Hi dave, Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) Cheers Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of David Brownell Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 4:05 PM To: 'XML Dev' Subject: Re: Lotsa laughs Didier PH Martin wrote: > > The best thing > is to help us by reporting the problem to Mozilla.org so that this > deficiency is corrected. ... and of course, for the folk at biztalk.org to stop delivering such broken content in the first place, which is the act which in the near term is most constructive. It's no fun seeing web pages that Lynx chokes on ... :-) - Dave xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Wed May 26 23:29:37 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: References: <374C53D6.23E4CC04@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <14156.25968.625153.161269@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) Until very recently (a few months ago), I still used Lynx to read HTML documentation quickly when I was already in a shell. Actually, I think that the Lynx test is a very good one, since it probably mirrors many of the limitations that will exist in early palm-top or cell-phone browsers (can you imagine 5 frames and a giant splash graphic on a 2"x3" handheld screen?). All Web sites should be able to display some kind of useful information in Lynx, either by browser sniffing or even just using the element. It's not rocket science -- if your Web designer doesn't know how to do it, it's time to go shopping. <rant> The PC revolution is just about run its course, and the big, bloated browsers and OS's may just be its death rattle. Not that PC's will disappear -- minicomputers and mainframes never did, and they even made a big come-back later on -- but people just won't care as much. Small devices (such as heldhelds and smart cell phones) may do to Microsoft in the next decade what PCs did to IBM in the 1980's. Let's start thinking forward a couple of years -- should we be more worried more about 3COM than Microsoft? </rant> All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Wed May 26 23:33:56 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org Press Release In-Reply-To: <199905261840.NAA29232@rgate.ricochet.net> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEGEDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Carl, ----------------- Carl said: I don't understand why BizTalk was created. To me, this looks like a reinvention of email, but using XML tags and proprietary naming systems instead of RFC-822 and MIME headers, and the Internet DNS system for message exchange naming and routing. Rather than use a scheme incompatible with existing messaging systems, the IETF-EDI approach to utilizing existing Internet standards to exchange XML messages with signatures and receipts. BizTalk should be standardizing the message content (or really standardizing the way to _document_ the message definitions), not defining a new incompatible messaging infrastructure. Didier say: Maybe I missed something after two readings of the documents. Where did you saw that? Is the <route> tag that makes you say that? It is not for external communication but for internal communication. Like they explain on an other document, external communication is through SMTP, HTPP, HTTPS all IETF RFCs. They say that the <route> element is optional. This could be used for inter departmental exchange (socket to socket). This could be used also to keep all workflow information that other protocols like SMTP do not include. Now, is the <route> element sufficient for workflow or inter-departmental communication. Note: I don't give a dam that Microsoft created Biztalk but If there is some good ideas why not use them and not necessarily with Microsoft software. Sometime, some posts reminds me of dark ages and narrow minds. Sorry Carl, Its only that this week the density of idiocy has skyrocket in this list. Where are the sharp minds? Where are the colleagues who can criticize with good arguments (not cheap Microsoft is this or that...) Where are the folks who are still curious? Please don't tell me they are gone all in utopia. Take two: What do you find wrong with the optional <route> tag (please make the doctor advice against allergic reactions - forget Microsoft did it - imagine that somebody else came with that paper). Do you have a better schema to encode workflow? maybe you have a better idea. If yes, please share it with us - poor fellows with instable curiosity ( a specie determined for extinction it seems). --------------------- regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From lisarein at finetuning.com Wed May 26 23:35:59 1999 From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEDKDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> <374C5113.BA4FA67C@finetuning.com> <374C541C.D21E874A@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> John Cowan wrote: > > Lisa Rein wrote: > > > As far as your references to specifics on the BizTalk site go, I am > > still unable to get to those files without using IE5 - which I will get > > to eventually I suppose when I build up enough microsoft site-specific > > tasks to do so (how i've been handling the MS site for some time now > > since it seems the company has decided to require its own browser for a > > readible version of its site's content). > > That problem arises because part of the content of biztalk.org is > expressed using non-compliant HTML. It has nothing to do with > XML compliance. I never said it had anything to do with XML-compliance! It had to do with my using having to use a browser I only keep around for testing just to view the contents of a single site. (And I don't have version 4 anymore, unfortunately, since 5 wrote over it when i installed it -- without asking I might add). I was explaining why I was not responding to the comments Didier had made regarding specific documents on the biztalk site. I will now have to parse the documents for myself to see if they are xml-compliant or not, which is what I should have done in the first place...i guess... before making my statement one way or the other :-) > > > But let's just say for the sake of argument that the examples on the > > site were well-formed XML -- my question is this: Just because the > > DOCUMENT examples they show are well-formed XML, isn't it the SCHEMAS > > that would be validating those documents that would be "breaking" the > > current implementations? > > That's absurd. You might as well say that SMIL "breaks" XML because > it imposes additional restrictions. No, an XML-1.0-compliant parser > can't tell you whether a given document is SMIL. Why should it > be able to? As long as SMIL documents are well-formed XML (they are), > there is no problem. Well, that's what I was asking. Thanks. > > > Also, on a less technical, more practical note: Why would anyone want to > > put time into using the BizTalk schemas if they know are going to just > > have to redo them again when Microsoft, in good faith, changes the > > BizTalk schemas over to the W3C's Schema syntax? > > Distinguish between the syntax of Biztalk documents themselves, > and the syntax used to express the schemas that describe them. See that was exactly the point I was trying to make. So the clarification here (and correct me, please, if I'm wrong because I want to clear this up once and for all in my own mind) - is that, officially, if the syntax of "the BizTalk DOCUMENTS themselves" *IS* XML v 1.0 complaint (in the sense that it is well-formed and therefore parseable) even though the syntax used to express the schemas that describe them *ISN'T* XML-compliant? -- that it still counts as an XML-compliant XML application? Okay then. I thought that an XML v. 1.0-compliant application needed to be definable using a DTD (at this point) -- even if you didn't necessarily write one up for it -- that it *should* be possible to do so for any XML v 1.0-compliant application syntax. (like SMIL etc.) Is this NOT correct? > > > It was my understanding that, at this time, > > any schema syntax-based validation-mechanism, by definition, does not > > conform to the XML v. 1.0 Recommendation. Is this not true? > > The XML 1.0 Rec does not *prescribe* any validation mechanism other > than DTDs. Applications can, should, and must require validation > above what DTD-validation provides. can, should, and must require? according to whom? > > > Said another way: Since a currently-implemented, XML v. 1.0-compliant > > validating parser would not be able to use a BizTalk schema to validate > > documents (since BizTalk schemas use syntax that is not specified in the > > version 1.0 Recommendation), wouldn't such an existing XML v. > > 1.0-compliant parser implementation "break" as a result, unless its > > creators had also implemented whatever additional, non-standard (and > > therefore proprietary) software that BizTalk requires? > > "Nonstandard" does not mean proprietary. SAX is not a standard, > but it is hardly proprietary. > we've been through this already, haven't we? Nonstandard DOES mean proprietary, for lack of a better term. Software is one OR the other, and then the variations go FROM there. Although proprietary standards can still be freely available -- An "open, freely available, proprietary standard" would then mean that a spec is available for anyone to implement (which isn't true yet in the case of biztalk) - like the way the source code of SAX's libraries is available to anyone. or as Chris Lilley defined it: "Freely available in the sense you can download it and check that everything is actually documented and that it isn't missing some key component. And proprietary in the sense that one company controls the spec and can alter it whenever they see fit." In that sense David Megginson is the one "company". In BizTalk's case, it would be MS - if the process and the specs were indeed to be made public. > > Wouldn't a more "compliant" BizTalk strategy be to have BizTalk using > > DTDs for now, > > Biztalk restrictions may not be expressible using DTDs, which would > not be a deficiency. They may and they may not. No one knows for sure but microsoft. (and really, per their own docs, maybe they don't even know at this point) The rules that specify RDF aren't specifiable > by a DTD either. I really don't want to get into this discussion that can only immediately go over my head, but I'll go ahead and say that: 1) I thought on this very list the consensus was that, sometimes, RDF document syntax CAN be specified using a DTD (or is that different from saying that, sometimes, a DTD could be created for validating RDF documents?) 2) Remember, RDF does not necessarily HAVE to be expressed using XML. It is only one, optional syntax, officially (one of its downsides, yes in terms of interoperability between implementations?), while BizTalk is (in theory) an application of XML. Period. > > > That way, developers wouldn't have to choose one > > schema syntax over another (and at the expense of being incompatible > > with everything else) because the schema syntaxes would all be > > compatible - with each other AND early implementations that used the > > BizTalk DTDs for validation. > > As long as the W3C-compliant schemas and the Microsoft schemas have > the same meaning, one may freely create Biztalk-compliant documents > without fear that they will change meanings. What do you mean "have the same meaning"? Do you mean "as long as they are in compliance with each other?" I think we are saying the same thing. (I was saying that as long as Microsoft schemas are in compliance with the W3C's schema syntax. Ultimately MS "should" defer to the other, not the other way around...) > > > Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema syntax for > > now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C > > member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost year ago? > > Maybe they don't understand the current Schema draft yet, not to mention > it is imcomplete as of now. Exactly my point though - since BizTalk is obviously incomplete now as well, and since both things won't be done 'till 3rd quarter 99 anyway -- why not develop them in conjunction with each other. Or MS could just wait until the Schema syntax is ready, so as not to fragment the market ahead of time. (oops! i forgot that that was the whole objective :-) lisa xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Wed May 26 23:37:44 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org Message-ID: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905262223480.6882-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> This (below) article just appeared on CNet. Politics and half-finished web sites aside, I'd be interested to hear if anyone could outline how these two approaches differ technically. I don't so much mean DTDs-versus-XYZSchema-format, but in the architectural approach they're taking. Are these to be community forums of machine-queryable repositories or some combination of both? Do BizTalk.org and XML.org differ in any technical rather than political way? It's hard to tell from the web sites... Dan Taking sides on XML Microsoft's attempt to jump-start adoption of the Extensible Markup Language (XML) has drawn battle lines in the rapidly evolving market, in some ways reminiscent of the industry split over the Java programming language. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C37072%2C00.html?dd.ne.txt.0526.09 excerpt... On one side is Microsoft's BizTalk initiative and its BizTalk.org Web site, established this week as an XML design clearing house, developer resource, and repository for XML schemas. Microsoft has lined up an impressive list of BizTalk backers, including most of the major enterprise resource planning (ERP) software makers--except Oracle-- e-commerce software and service providers like Ariba, and big-name technology consumers, such as Boeing. On the other side is XML.org, an XML developer portal launched this week by Oasis, a nonprofit consortium. Oasis, which has been building its portal for a year, has been endorsed by virtually all other big-name software makers, including IBM, Sun Microsystems, Novell, and Oracle. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Bruce.Duffy at westgroup.com Thu May 27 00:04:14 1999 From: Bruce.Duffy at westgroup.com (Duffy, Bruce) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: <27CD34D68C7DD211A68A0004AC38272A4E6EFE@elizabeth.int.westgroup.com> Here's my (facetious) $0.02: Perhaps the BizTalk site is a "Rorsach" website who's sole purpose is to provoke xml-dev type folks into speculating what it could possibly mean, thereby generating new ideas for M$'s marketing engine. Just kidding. Bruce Duffy West Group xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From asmith at drumbeat.com Thu May 27 00:04:55 1999 From: asmith at drumbeat.com (Smith, Adrian) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) Message-ID: <A96D01596512D31197E300609778A80D0C6275@elemental2> The IBM lead Bluetooth chip would tend to support the rant at the end. Thanks! Adrian > -----Original Message----- > From: David Megginson [SMTP:david@megginson.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 2:31 PM > To: 'XML Dev' > Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) > > Didier PH Martin writes: > > > Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) > > Until very recently (a few months ago), I still used Lynx to read HTML > documentation quickly when I was already in a shell. > > Actually, I think that the Lynx test is a very good one, since it > probably mirrors many of the limitations that will exist in early > palm-top or cell-phone browsers (can you imagine 5 frames and a giant > splash graphic on a 2"x3" handheld screen?). > > All Web sites should be able to display some kind of useful > information in Lynx, either by browser sniffing or even just using the > <noframes> element. It's not rocket science -- if your Web designer > doesn't know how to do it, it's time to go shopping. > > <rant> > > The PC revolution is just about run its course, and the big, bloated > browsers and OS's may just be its death rattle. Not that PC's will > disappear -- minicomputers and mainframes never did, and they even > made a big come-back later on -- but people just won't care as much. > > Small devices (such as heldhelds and smart cell phones) may do to > Microsoft in the next decade what PCs did to IBM in the 1980's. Let's > start thinking forward a couple of years -- should we be more worried > more about 3COM than Microsoft? > > </rant> > > > All the best, > > > David > > -- > David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, > mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on > CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following > message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Thu May 27 00:26:20 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <14156.25968.625153.161269@localhost.localdomain> References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEGCDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> <374C53D6.23E4CC04@pacbell.net> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEGCDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990526152255.0135d6a0@library.berkeley.edu> At 05:31 PM 5/26/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Didier PH Martin writes: > > > Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) > >Until very recently (a few months ago), I still used Lynx to read HTML >documentation quickly when I was already in a shell. > To throw my two bits in along with David: Many blind computer users turned to lynx in the early days of the web as screen reading software of the time typically worked better with character-based programs than with GUIs. While screen readers have become more advanced, a lot of blind users have continued to use lynx because the text displays it provides are easier to navigate than the graphic mess seen on many web sites. If you're an organization trying to disseminate information over the web and your site doesn't present a coherent display in lynx, I'd redo the web site. An interesting note on this topic. The revamped version of my School, the School of Information Management & Systems at U.C. Berkeley, just graduated its first class of Masters students. The students were required to complete a final project that involved design and implementation of an information system. Most all of the students designed systems using a web interface. A panel of judges comprised of both faculty from the school and people from industry reviewed the students' work to award a prize to the graduate with the best final project. One of the judges from industry remarked that while the quality of the projects overall was very good, none of them would pass muster with ADA guidelines. If any of the students had bothered to look at their projects in lynx, I bet they would have done a better job. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From pvelikho at cs.ucsd.edu Thu May 27 00:51:41 1999 From: pvelikho at cs.ucsd.edu (Pavel Velikhov) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:27 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org (cannonical model) References: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905262223480.6882-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <374C79CA.4727BD77@cs.ucsd.edu> Do you have any thoughts about the cannonical model spec at BizTalk.org? To me it seems as a reversal of all the good things that XML modeling can offer and a move toward network database model. Here is what looks very offending to me: 1. All relationships are represented as IDREFs. Apart from the current XML problem, that IDREFs are untyped, this sounds like a very inflexible approach to me. Many relationships can be modeled by subelements. That way you can balance replication and efficiency (checking subelements is a local operation and should be much more efficient than traversing links). 2. All relationships are materialized. By keeping explicit IDREF pointers all the relationships of the ER schema are materialized. This sounds quite alarming. 3. XML elements are not used to model data at all. I.e. only the entity is an element, with no children. Isn't XML's goal to avoid these flat unnested representations? Is it obvious that the cannonical model proposal has some serious problems, or am I not getting something? Thank you Pavel Velikhov xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 01:10:25 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEGHDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Lisa, ----------------------- Lisa said: I thought that an XML v. 1.0-compliant application needed to be definable using a DTD (at this point) -- even if you didn't necessarily write one up for it -- that it *should* be possible to do so for any XML v 1.0-compliant application syntax. (like SMIL etc.) Is this NOT correct? Didier says: Not necessarily. A XML document could be dynamically created from other XML documents. These XML document parts may have a DTD but the aggregated document may not. To be XML 1.0 compliant do not _necessarily_ requires a DTD. Only the rules mentioned in the XML 1.0 recommendation. --------------------- Lisa said: > "Nonstandard" does not mean proprietary. SAX is not a standard, > but it is hardly proprietary. > we've been through this already, haven't we? Nonstandard DOES mean proprietary, for lack of a better term. Software is one OR the other, and then the variations go FROM there. Didier Says: I will not teach you English (you are far better than me on this side - speaking four languages is not alway an advantage - speaking one well is always). But Nonstandard do _not_ mean proprietary. We can say however, form the legal point of view that if a document includes copyright notice, it is proprietary, even if this is a standard. However, this notice may provide the right to use it, distribute it, etc... It remains that the owner is the one who published the document copyright notice. All W3C document are proprietary in the sense that: a) only a small group of people where involved and no democratic process asked for example what Luxembourg agrees that this is a standard. b) all published documents includes a copyright notice and are by the way W3C property. We only have a the rights that W3C gives us on these documents. They still are the owners. Try to modify a W3C document, publish it and see what will happen. legally, W3C can sue you. They are they owners and the copyright notice explicitly says that _they_ as owners do not provide you the right to modify the document. c) Biztalk documents are owned by Microsoft and they provide you the right to use, distribute etc.. But do not provide you the right to modify the document. As we saw this week in several messages, a lot of things are standard even some toilet devices :-) So, even if we make fun of it, to say that something is a standard is not so obvious. The word is used a bit too lightly. Obviously for some ideological or marketing ends. ------------------ Lisa said: Although proprietary standards can still be freely available -- An "open, freely available, proprietary standard" would then mean that a spec is available for anyone to implement (which isn't true yet in the case of biztalk) - like the way the source code of SAX's libraries is available to anyone. or as Chris Lilley defined it: "Freely available in the sense you can download it and check that everything is actually documented and that it isn't missing some key component. And proprietary in the sense that one company controls the spec and can alter it whenever they see fit." In that sense David Megginson is the one "company". In BizTalk's case, it would be MS - if the process and the specs were indeed to be made public. Didier says: In that sense W3C too. They can modify the specs as they which because they _own_ the specs. What is W3C: a consortium of companies. What is the legal status of W3C? (I think, but Chris can correct me if I am wrong, that this is a non profit corporation). I do not say here that W3C is bad etc... Just put things in perspective. Both specs are produced by a corporation. If however you bring the argument of democracy, I follow you. W3C is more democratic than Microsoft because a recommendation has to be approved by the members ( Chris correct me if I am wrong - Is this by a members vote? Do all members vote for each recommendation). A better democratic (relative if you think of the Tibetans) standard institution is ISO (the name itself tell it all) where several countries have to vote. Or a new kind of democratic process: member's list and their comments which created SAX. Its then only of considering whose company, individual or institution is creating the best democratic environment. The other kind of choice which could conduct to democratic choice is the market choice. Clients decisions. In this case we speak of de facto standard (like for instance English as a dominant Web language - but can we say that English is an international standard?). But a de facto standard may not be a standard we like :-) As a friend already said: we should not confound free beer with free speech. ----------------------- Lisa said: I really don't want to get into this discussion that can only immediately go over my head, but I'll go ahead and say that: 1) I thought on this very list the consensus was that, sometimes, RDF document syntax CAN be specified using a DTD (or is that different from saying that, sometimes, a DTD could be created for validating RDF documents?) 2) Remember, RDF does not necessarily HAVE to be expressed using XML. It is only one, optional syntax, officially (one of its downsides, yes in terms of interoperability between implementations?), while BizTalk is (in theory) an application of XML. Period. Didier says: This is what Guha wants (and I agree with him). As far as I remember, even when we worked together on the metadata Content Format (and framework - a project initiated by Apple Research) we made the distinction between the ontology and the ontology expression language. However, practically, RDF is tightly connected to XML. I can apply ontology principles underlying RDF in topic maps ( a ISO standard - boy I used the word standard :-) but the format will be far from RDF as proposed in the recommendation. I can also apply RDF ontology principles in MCF (the language we co-developed with Guha when he was still at Apple research) but this would not be called RDF. Want it or not, RDF is tightly linked to XML. the attribute/value principle is not as already present in HTTP headers. Would we express RDF elements in HTTP headers formats? noo we would be taxed to use a non standard way to express schemata :-) ------------------------ ------------------------ Lisa said: > > > Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema syntax for > > now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C > > member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost year ago? > > Maybe they don't understand the current Schema draft yet, not to mention > it is imcomplete as of now. Exactly my point though - since BizTalk is obviously incomplete now as well, and since both things won't be done 'till 3rd quarter 99 anyway -- why not develop them in conjunction with each other. Or MS could just wait until the Schema syntax is ready, so as not to fragment the market ahead of time. (oops! i forgot that that was the whole objective :-) Didier says: I agree with you Lisa, Biztalk is incomplete and the two documents needs more work (alleluia, we stopped bitching now let's speak of the real things). Here is the main problem to resolve (I hope we will focus on this problem - if we make dissection on some of us we'll see that the brain area dedicated to Microsoft bitching increased like a cancer - health problems could occurs with usage, like some brain damage :-) So, let's put the energy on constructive efforts. we have to assemble several transaction type in a single document. We have to tell the receiving end that a particular transaction fragment can be verified for correctness with a document located at a certain location: <PO> <---- for purchase order content here </PO> <catalog> <--- For catalog request :-) Content here </catalog> So the problem is that today, I do not have a "standard" way of documenting each document fragment so that this fragment can be validated. DTD could not be used. If I use a DTD, this has to be associated to each fragment. Not ok according to the recommendations. Maybe, the actual way would be to use RDF to define a transaction fragment. Th RDF document would contain a RDF element for each transaction fragment element (including parent relationship) Any idea? I am sure somebody has a good idea on how to resolve the problem (one with a brain not too damaged by the cancer). If a plausible schema is found, I'll post it to XML-EDI for discussions. Off course, the whole idea is to find a construct that we will find as democratic as possible and as independent of big pockets as possible. We accuse Microsoft to be fast and try to divide the market. Why let them do this and why don't we make a proposal. A document co-signed by several people is maybe as democratic as other documents (if we include the right copyright notice allowing people to freely use, re-distribute, etc...). This would be constructive action. Not bitching against Microsoft and doing nothing but doing something. Volonteers? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at chage.com Thu May 27 01:14:53 1999 From: carl at chage.com (Carl Hage) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org Press Release Message-ID: <199905262316.SAA13475@rgate.ricochet.net> I don't understand why BizTalk was created. To me, this looks like a reinvention of email, but using XML tags and proprietary naming systems instead of RFC-822/MIME headers with the Internet DNS system for message exchange naming and routing. >From my reading of the spec-- BizTalk is not just a repository-- it's a non-standard email scheme. All BizTalk XML documents require a wrapper analogous to RFC822 headers. Rather than use a scheme incompatible with existing messaging systems, the IETF-EDI approach to utilizing existing Internet standards should be used to exchange XML messages with signatures and receipts. BizTalk, xml.org, etc. should be standardizing the message content (or really standardizing the way to _document_ the message definitions), not defining a new incompatible messaging infrastructure. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl Hage C. Hage Associates <mailto:carl@chage.com> Voice/Fax: 1-408-244-8410 1180 Reed Ave #51 <http://www.chage.com/chage/> Sunnyvale, CA 94086 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 01:21:43 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990526152255.0135d6a0@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEGKDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Jerome, So it seems its a time machine that can go to the past....and the future. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Jerome McDonough Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 6:23 PM To: David Megginson; 'XML Dev' Subject: Re: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) At 05:31 PM 5/26/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >Didier PH Martin writes: > > > Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) > >Until very recently (a few months ago), I still used Lynx to read HTML >documentation quickly when I was already in a shell. > To throw my two bits in along with David: Many blind computer users turned to lynx in the early days of the web as screen reading software of the time typically worked better with character-based programs than with GUIs. While screen readers have become more advanced, a lot of blind users have continued to use lynx because the text displays it provides are easier to navigate than the graphic mess seen on many web sites. If you're an organization trying to disseminate information over the web and your site doesn't present a coherent display in lynx, I'd redo the web site. An interesting note on this topic. The revamped version of my School, the School of Information Management & Systems at U.C. Berkeley, just graduated its first class of Masters students. The students were required to complete a final project that involved design and implementation of an information system. Most all of the students designed systems using a web interface. A panel of judges comprised of both faculty from the school and people from industry reviewed the students' work to award a prize to the graduate with the best final project. One of the judges from industry remarked that while the quality of the projects overall was very good, none of them would pass muster with ADA guidelines. If any of the students had bothered to look at their projects in lynx, I bet they would have done a better job. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 01:26:57 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org (cannonical model) In-Reply-To: <374C79CA.4727BD77@cs.ucsd.edu> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEGKDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi, you said: Do you have any thoughts about the cannonical model spec at BizTalk.org? To me it seems as a reversal of all the good things that XML modeling can offer and a move toward network database model. Here is what looks very offending to me: 1. All relationships are represented as IDREFs. Apart from the current XML problem, that IDREFs are untyped, this sounds like a very inflexible approach to me. Many relationships can be modeled by subelements. That way you can balance replication and efficiency (checking subelements is a local operation and should be much more efficient than traversing links). 2. All relationships are materialized. By keeping explicit IDREF pointers all the relationships of the ER schema are materialized. This sounds quite alarming. 3. XML elements are not used to model data at all. I.e. only the entity is an element, with no children. Isn't XML's goal to avoid these flat unnested representations? Is it obvious that the cannonical model proposal has some serious problems, or am I not getting something? Didier says: Do you have a particular format in mind like HL7 for instance? as you know, biztalk is only the envelope as cXML also make some envelope proposal too. but this envelope contains more specific formats like for instance HL7. >From waht I know, most XML-EDI format do not convey ER relationship only transaction documents like for example purchase orders. In this latter case, containment relationship is provided (as in HL7) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 01:43:45 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org In-Reply-To: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905262223480.6882-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEGLDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Dan, Objectively and from observations made on their site: a) xml.org claim to be a repository for reference documents like schemas, dtd, etc... but do not claim to be specialized for B2B exchange. The positioning seems more general purpose. b) Biztalk includes Microsoft specifications about B2B or general application exchange formats. Two documents provide details on this. So Dan, it seems that the difference is not technical but more a question of positioning. But to fully understand what's behind of biztalk, go to Microsoft site and search for biztalk server. It seems that the biztalk framework is the biztalk server language. However, to be useful, this server needs some support from ERP providers and big customers. I won't comment if that is good or not but it seems that Microsoft choose XML as an application exchange format. This format competes in a certain way DCOM or CORBA middleware formats. Conclusion: OASIS xml.org seems more general purpose (the position may change in the future). It could include XML_EDI but nothing is explicitly stated in that sense. Actually only companies announcement are posted on it. Microsoft biztalk.org make a proposal for a new XML format or transaction envelope with workflow or routing information. It seems that the routing information is targeted to intra corporation processing probably fitted to the biztalk server. What is dangerous there is that the biztalk server will probably be the first to process biztalk messages. The other point is that we don't know the cost of the biztalk server. If this free and included in the platform, this is bad news for competitors if this format is a de facto standard. So, very dangerous for the ISVs. Sorry if the analysis is not technical but these two site do not promote so much technology as they take some position on the market. regards -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Dan Brickley Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 5:39 PM To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk' Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org This (below) article just appeared on CNet. Politics and half-finished web sites aside, I'd be interested to hear if anyone could outline how these two approaches differ technically. I don't so much mean DTDs-versus-XYZSchema-format, but in the architectural approach they're taking. Are these to be community forums of machine-queryable repositories or some combination of both? Do BizTalk.org and XML.org differ in any technical rather than political way? It's hard to tell from the web sites... Dan Taking sides on XML Microsoft's attempt to jump-start adoption of the Extensible Markup Language (XML) has drawn battle lines in the rapidly evolving market, in some ways reminiscent of the industry split over the Java programming language. http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C37072%2C00.html?dd.ne.txt.0526.09 excerpt... On one side is Microsoft's BizTalk initiative and its BizTalk.org Web site, established this week as an XML design clearing house, developer resource, and repository for XML schemas. Microsoft has lined up an impressive list of BizTalk backers, including most of the major enterprise resource planning (ERP) software makers--except Oracle-- e-commerce software and service providers like Ariba, and big-name technology consumers, such as Boeing. On the other side is XML.org, an XML developer portal launched this week by Oasis, a nonprofit consortium. Oasis, which has been building its portal for a year, has been endorsed by virtually all other big-name software makers, including IBM, Sun Microsystems, Novell, and Oracle. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From robin at isogen.com Thu May 27 02:04:40 1999 From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEGLDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990526190240.14208B-100000@grind> Even this is reading in too much: OASIS is a non-profit, semi-nothing standards group, and cannot do anything for a "market." OASIS has only ONE (1) employee! XML.ORG is just a web-site, really, like a library catalog. The press release is makes it seem more than this, perhaps. No real "competition" because XML.ORG is designing/promoting no single way to do anything, e-commerce or otherwise. It's unfortunate that one might draw other conclusions from the marketing crap that's flying around. Thanks for your analysis. -r xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 27 03:13:03 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: IMPORTANT: XML Infoset WD Message-ID: <14156.39382.485226.646502@localhost.localdomain> I'd like to remind everyone to take the time to read the (fairly short) XML Information Set Working Draft: Infoset WD: http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-infoset Comments: mailto:www-xml-infoset-comments@w3.org Archive: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-infoset-comments/ The W3C XML Information Set Working Group is working to establish a common data model for XML-based specs and APIs; while the model itself is abstract, it will be affect many other specs and APIs like the DOM, XSL, XML Schemas, XPointer, and even SAX. Here are two sample questions to whet your appetites: 1. Are comments and CDATA section boundaries optional or required information from an XML document? 2. Should the original prefixes be available during namespace processing? If you care about the answers to questions like these, then please comment now (while the Infoset is in its early drafts) rather than waiting until you see answers you might not like embedded in dozens of other specs. Discussion on XML-Dev is, of course, welcome, but if you want to be sure that your comments are considered by the WG, please at least summarize them to the official address as well. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From smo at jst.com.au Thu May 27 03:25:57 1999 From: smo at jst.com.au (Steve Oldmeadow) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) References: <374C53D6.23E4CC04@pacbell.net><NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEGCDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> <14156.25968.625153.161269@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <009c01bea7df$4abe8ca0$0201a8c0@pikachu> ----- Original Message ----- From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com> To: 'XML Dev' <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Sent: 27/05/1999 5:31 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) > Small devices (such as heldhelds and smart cell phones) may do to > Microsoft in the next decade what PCs did to IBM in the 1980's. Let's > start thinking forward a couple of years -- should we be more worried > more about 3COM than Microsoft? Don't forget voice as well. To quote someone from IBM's voice labs "The telephone is the ultimate thin client". Steve Oldmeadow - fondly reminiscing about the good old days when I used Lynx and image maps were few and far between :) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu May 27 04:14:25 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: DTDs Message-ID: <007c01bea7e7$3d51af40$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >I would like to have examples on the following > >1. nested DTDs >2. two DTDs used within a document >3. nested DTDs used within a document > >Are the above scenarios possible? Thanks in advance. A document has only one DTD. However, a DTD is principally just a set of markup declarations. It is possible to take the markup declarations of two DTDs and have a document use the union as a DTD. Note that you would have to modify the content models in at least one of the original DTDs in order to allow for elements from one DTD to include elements from the other. This is made easy where content models are made extensible in the first place via a parameter entity. You just override the parameter entity to include the extra elements. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu May 27 04:29:24 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: <00bb01bea7e9$4f38e5a0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> >By the way, how many SAX implementors have ever used the SAX 1.0 >DTDHandler interface in a real-world installation? The XML 1.0 spec >requires processors to report the information in that interface, but >I'd be very interested to know about actual usage patterns. The closest I've come is wanting to grab notation URIs for processing instruction targets in FOP. I don't actually do it but I've thought about doing it :-) Another application that I would like (someone) to write is a character data filter triggered by notation, which would again require grabbing notation URIs. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 05:27:51 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.990526190240.14208B-100000@grind> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEGODGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Robin, Even with only (1) employee the OASIS site is quite impressive. Robin, even if people do not tell you that often (but they should) you do a really good job to provide us with news that keep us informed about the structure document world. Simple word: thanks PS: your site is my favorite bookmark. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com -----Original Message----- From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of Robin Cover Sent: Wednesday, May 26, 1999 8:07 PM To: Didier PH Martin Cc: 'XML Dev' Subject: RE: BizTalk.org and XML.org Even this is reading in too much: OASIS is a non-profit, semi-nothing standards group, and cannot do anything for a "market." OASIS has only ONE (1) employee! XML.ORG is just a web-site, really, like a library catalog. The press release is makes it seem more than this, perhaps. No real "competition" because XML.ORG is designing/promoting no single way to do anything, e-commerce or otherwise. It's unfortunate that one might draw other conclusions from the marketing crap that's flying around. Thanks for your analysis. -r xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Thu May 27 05:29:48 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: IMPORTANT: XML Infoset WD In-Reply-To: <14156.39382.485226.646502@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEHADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, [information block...] Question about information sets: SGML property sets could be defined with SGML elements. Are you planning to include in the specs a way to specify an information set with XML elements? regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Thu May 27 06:12:47 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: BizTalk.org and XML.org Message-ID: <001001bea7f7$c372e480$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> The way I see it, XML.org is like a library and BizTalk.org is like a standard for dust jackets. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de Thu May 27 10:23:46 1999 From: obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de (Oliver Becker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: DTDs Message-ID: <199905270825.KAA13335@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Hello, > A document has only one DTD. However, a DTD is principally just a set of > markup declarations. It is possible to take the markup declarations of two > DTDs and have a document use the union as a DTD. Note that you would have to > modify the content models in at least one of the original DTDs in order to > allow for elements from one DTD to include elements from the other. ... unless you have ANY as content model ;-) Another question concerning this topic: The XML spec states at the end of 2.8 "If both the external and internal subsets are used, the internal subset is considered to occur before the external subset." How do I express this? The syntax allows me to write the following: <!DOCTYPE example SYSTEM "example.dtd" [ <!ELEMENT example (something)> <!-- and so on --> ]> How will the external (example.dtd) and the internal subsets be merged in this case? Or do I have to write <!DOCTYPE example [ <!ENTITY % external SYSTEM "example.dtd"> <!ELEMENT example (something)> <!-- the same as above --> %external; ]> Thank you in advance, Oliver /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | ob|do Dipl.Inf. Oliver Becker | | --+-- E-Mail: obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de | | op|qo WWW: http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~obecker | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net Thu May 27 10:34:50 1999 From: Mark.Birbeck at iedigital.net (Mark Birbeck) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:28 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs Message-ID: <A26F84C9D8EDD111A102006097C4CD0D054BDE@sohos002.ied-support.net> Lisa Rein wrote: > But let's just say for the sake of argument that the examples on the > site were well-formed XML -- my question is this: Just because the > DOCUMENT examples they show are well-formed XML, isn't it the SCHEMAS > that would be validating those documents that would be "breaking" the > current implementations? It was my understanding that, at this time, > any schema syntax-based validation-mechanism, by definition, does not > conform to the XML v. 1.0 Recommendation. Is this not true? Interesting point - but then you could say that anything that uses namespaces isn't completely 1.0. > Also, on a less technical, more practical note: Why would > anyone want to > put time into using the BizTalk schemas if they know are going to just > have to redo them again when Microsoft, in good faith, changes the > BizTalk schemas over to the W3C's Schema syntax? Or the reverse of > that would be - why would a microsoft-centric developer want to ever > bbother changing over to the proper W3C syntax if they know that > Microsoft will continue to build support for the original proprietary > syntax into their products in order to keep them all > backwards-compatible with the early implementations? (something MS > swears by) Again interesting. I've taken the view that although the schema implementation with IE5 is incomplete and non-standard, the techniques I have developed will transpose easily. Effectively I can extract the schema for any part of my object database by asking for an object, and all children and attributes come out automatically. Now, I could have used DTDs, but I thought that no matter how different the syntax of the final draft of schemas is, the principles will be pretty close, so I decided to press ahead with the test stuff. So, to answer your question, how much will I have to re-do on the day the schema standard is confirmed, versus someone who is still using DTDs (because there is more to it than a just a new syntax)? I think there are no right answers here. My company is small enough that I can make decisions like this, but if I was still in a large bank in the City, or something, then I wouldn't touch any of this stuff for another year. > Why doesn't MS use the closest thing it can to the W3C Schema > syntax for > now, if it can't wait --rather than an undefined mishmash of two W3C > member submissions and one unfinished white paper from almost > year ago? > BizTalk isn't due out till third quarter 99 -- how perfect, neither is > the XML Schema Proposed Recommendation -- how about developing the > BizTalk schemas in conjunction with the Schema Working Group > at the W3C > so they are sure to match?! Hey! THERE's an idea! I sympathise with you, but I was under the impression that the W3C didn't want to get involved with schemas as such. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Thu May 27 11:37:58 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990527093634Z-74609@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> David Megginson wrote, > By the way, how many SAX implementors have ever used > the SAX 1.0 DTDHandler interface in a real-world > installation? The XML 1.0 spec requires processors to > report the information in that interface, but > I'd be very interested to know about actual usage > patterns. At application level, I agree it's probably not all that useful. But for slightly higher level infra- structure (ie. DOM building amongst other things) it's essential ... similarly for the proposed LexicalHandler. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From om at lgsi.co.in Thu May 27 11:42:44 1999 From: om at lgsi.co.in (Om Band) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: XLinks ?? Message-ID: <008001bea825$fa246ca0$3601a8c0@lgsi.co.in> Hello, With XLinks is it possible to have 2 different forms to load from 2 different servers & merge it within the browser as if it is a single page? Also while submitting it will go to their respected servers. Does any browser or any other mechanism practically supports it right now ? Thanks...Om -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990527/e3f4fe91/attachment.htm From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Thu May 27 11:46:54 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990527094531Z-74616@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> David Megginson wrote, > For the record, Jon Bosak gave us permission to use > the org.xml.sax.* branch for SAX; he has since donated > the xml.org domain to OASIS, and any decisions about > org.xml.* packages other than org.xml.sax.* will > have to be approved by that organization. That's a teensy bit worrying ... Whilst I'm sure that the _last_ thing OASIS would want to do is threaten SAXs namespace, it's a little bit disturbing that it's, even in principle, at the mercy of the decisions of an only tangentially related organization. If nothing else, it's clear that this _does_ seem to have the potential to cramp SAXs style somewhat. If org.xml.* isn't freely available for SAX, then it does make some things (Andy Clarks proposal for SAX2 to be repackaged under org.xml.parser for example) a little bit more awkward. It'd be a shame for that sort of thing to be ruled out on _administrative_ grounds (as opposed to software design reasons). Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 27 12:34:21 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: The org.xml.sax package In-Reply-To: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990527094531Z-74616@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> References: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990527094531Z-74616@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> Message-ID: <14157.7934.981788.794462@localhost.localdomain> Miles Sabin writes: > David Megginson wrote, > > For the record, Jon Bosak gave us permission to use > > the org.xml.sax.* branch for SAX; he has since donated > > the xml.org domain to OASIS, and any decisions about > > org.xml.* packages other than org.xml.sax.* will > > have to be approved by that organization. > > That's a teensy bit worrying ... It shouldn't be -- SAX's package name (org.xml.sax.*) is secure. The only issue is that we cannot arbitrarily create package names outside of that hierarchy, since OASIS may use those for other purposes. Personally, I think that it's a good thing for SAX that its Java package name is built on a .ORG domain that is (now) controlled by a non-profit organization dedicated to advancing XML, rather than by a for-profit company (even a nice one like Megginson Technologies). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk Thu May 27 12:58:33 1999 From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: The org.xml.sax package Message-ID: <c=US%a=_%p=Cromwell_Media%l=ODIN-990527105710Z-74679@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> David Megginson wrote, > It shouldn't be -- SAX's package name (org.xml.sax.*) > is secure. The only issue is that we cannot > arbitrarily create package names outside of that > hierarchy, since OASIS may use those for other > purposes. Certainly. But there is a bit of a structural problem here: SAX1 occupies the root of the org.xml.sax namespace. Andy's proposal would have to be recast something like this, org xml sax parser // SAX2 stuff here helpers // SAX2 stuff here dom // SAX2 stuff here helpers // SAX2 stuff here // SAX1 stuff here helpers // SAX1 stuff here I don't know about you, but to me this sort of structure suggests that SAX2 is a *subsidiary* part of SAX1. That's not what he had in mind: for better or worse he's suggesting a (mostly compatible given adapters) *replacement* SAX2 API. For me that implies they should be peer packages, rather than having a parent-child relationship. Of course, whether you see things that way or not depends on what kind of java package structure conventions you adopt, but I think most people follow the 'sub-package is sub-component' line. This isn't fatal to Andy's proposal, but it is a bit of a wart on an idea that otherwise I'm beginning to warm to. > Personally, I think that it's a good thing for SAX > that its Java package name is built on a .ORG domain > that is (now) controlled by a non-profit organization > dedicated to advancing XML, rather than by a > for-profit company (even a nice one like Megginson > Technologies). Agreed, and I hope noone interpreted my comments as casting aspersions on OASIS. Cheers, Miles -- Miles Sabin Cromwell Media Internet Systems Architect 5/6 Glenthorne Mews +44 (0)181 410 2230 London, W6 0LJ msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk England xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From branjan at wipinfo.soft.net Thu May 27 14:01:53 1999 From: branjan at wipinfo.soft.net (Balaji Ranjan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: referring to xsl from xml page. Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.990527172709.27375A-100000@trishul.wipinfo.soft.net> hi all, how can i refer to an xsl which is located in another server apart from where xml is present.if the href is provided to the other server,a page showing access denied is displayed. thanks in advance Balaji Ranjan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From silmaril at m-net.arbornet.org Thu May 27 14:59:26 1999 From: silmaril at m-net.arbornet.org (Peter Flynn) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: XML FAQ 1.5 Message-ID: <374C7CAE.89F31723@m-net.arbornet.org> There is a new version of the XML FAQ (1.5) at http://www.ucc.ie/xml Please let me know if you find bugs, typos, etc I had originally intended to post the plaintext version weekly but as it's on the Web, everyone can get it anyway (those with no direct access can use webmail@www.ucc.ie, send HELP to that address for details) The PostScript versions (Letter/A4) have been completely reset. PDF to follow. Anyone need RTF? ///Peter -- <?xml version="1.0"?><?xml-stylesheet href="sig.css" type="text/css"?> <Sig><Name>Peter Flynn</Name><Email>pflynn@imbolc.ucc.ie</Email></Sig> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Thu May 27 15:33:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: IMPORTANT: XML Infoset WD In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEHADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> References: <14156.39382.485226.646502@localhost.localdomain> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEHADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <14157.18703.646748.669321@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > SGML property sets could be defined with SGML elements. Are you > planning to include in the specs a way to specify an information > set with XML elements? If you go to the XML Information Set Requirements [1] and look at design principle #4, you'll see the following: 4. The XML Information Set specification shall include a non-normative formal model that allows for machine testing and verification of the information set. Although it didn't make it into the first public WD, you can expect to see this model in future releases, and it will most likely be expressed in XML markup of some sort. <member-confidentiality-gag> More than that, I cannot say.... </member-confidentiality-gag>. All the best, David [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-xml-infoset-req -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se Thu May 27 15:47:58 1999 From: Matthew.Sergeant at eml.ericsson.se (Matthew Sergeant (EML)) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: Why Lynx-compatibility matters (was RE: Lotsa laughs) Message-ID: <5F052F2A01FBD11184F00008C7A4A800022A1929@eukbant101.ericsson.se> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Megginson [SMTP:david@megginson.com] > > Didier PH Martin writes: > > > Lynx? Do you have a time machine? :-) > > Until very recently (a few months ago), I still used Lynx to read HTML > documentation quickly when I was already in a shell. > > Actually, I think that the Lynx test is a very good one, since it > probably mirrors many of the limitations that will exist in early > palm-top or cell-phone browsers (can you imagine 5 frames and a giant > splash graphic on a 2"x3" handheld screen?). > > All Web sites should be able to display some kind of useful > information in Lynx, either by browser sniffing or even just using the > <noframes> element. It's not rocket science -- if your Web designer > doesn't know how to do it, it's time to go shopping. > The latest version of Lynx supports frames, and also has the most compliant CSS implementation out there <g>... I still use Lynx quite a bit when Netscape on Linux really ticks me off (Netscape on glibc based Linux is as stable as MSWord 2.0 was...) Matt. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Thu May 27 15:59:18 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: DTDs In-Reply-To: Oliver Becker's message of Thu, 27 May 1999 10:25:51 +0200 (MET DST) Message-ID: <199905271401.PAA12077@stevenson.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> > "If both the external and internal subsets are used, the internal subset is > considered to occur before the external subset." This just means that your two examples: > <!DOCTYPE example SYSTEM "example.dtd" [ > <!ELEMENT example (something)> > <!-- and so on --> > ]> > <!DOCTYPE example [ > <!ENTITY % external SYSTEM "example.dtd"> > <!ELEMENT example (something)> > <!-- the same as above --> > %external; > ]> are equivalent, and in particular they are not equivalent to <!DOCTYPE example [ <!ENTITY % external SYSTEM "example.dtd"> %external; <!ELEMENT example (something)> <!-- the same as above --> ]> which is what you would use if you wanted the external part processed first. In the cases where multiple declarations of the same thing are allowed (entities, attributes, notations(?) but not elements), the first declaration applies; so the rule means that declarations in the internal subset override ones in the external subset. It also allows you to parametrise the external subset by using conditionals that test parameter entities defined in the internal subset. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Thu May 27 18:07:57 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: Questioning XSL Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE8D@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Apologies for coming in late to this thread, but I would like further thoughts on a point of view which has been marginally mentioned, if at all, which is the point that XSL can add a layer of abstraction to web development that the DOM/CSS can't. My point is, in the web development world, there are three kinds of people: -people who write CONTENT These people can use XML -people who FORMAT web sites (designers) These people can use XSL, to transform the XML into HTML/CSS -people who write CODE These people can use the DOM, with whatever programming languages they want, to populate databases, or to pull information out of the databases and into XML, or to calculate tax on the order our customer just entered, etc. etc. etc. I mean, think about the mess that was created when ASP first came on the scene: People took a technology with a lot of promise, but took it too far, and ended up with ASP pages that had HTML mixed with scripting code mixed with content, and ended up with an unmanageable mess of, well, TEXT. Then people got a bit wiser, and started creating server-side components, which the ASP can call. Now we've eliminated the code from the ASP page, except the little bit that we need to call the components; we're just left with just HTML and content. This is more manageable. (Apologies if I've just mangled history, but it's what I've seen at a lot of my clients.) Now, if we go to the paradigm I've mentioned above, we can have our content, formatting, and code COMPLETELY separate from each other. If our content providers want to change their content, they can edit the XML files to their hearts' content, without ever having to see code or caring about format. If our formatters decide they want to change the layout of the site, they can edit the XSL stylesheets and CSS stylesheets to their hearts' content, without ever seeing a line of code, or caring about content. And the coders simply have to pull in those XML files and XSL files, without caring what's in them, and write the code to glue them together. (Along with the tax calculations, etc... :-) OTOH, if we take XSL out of the picture, then our formatters have no options other than to a) change the layout of the XML documents, which will interfere with our content providers or b) use the DOM and write code to format the documents, which will interfere with our coders. (And make our formatters coders themselves.) For example, suppose we have the following XML document: <?xml version='1.0'?> <Employee IncrediblyGoodLooking='true'> <Name> <FirstName>David</FirstName> <MiddleName>John Bartlett</MiddleName> <LastName>Hunter</LastName> </Name> <Occupation>Web Development Consultant/XML-Dev Newbie</Occupation> <Aside>Okay, he's good looking, but only in his own mind...</Aside> <id>123456</id> </Employee> And we want to format the document as in the simple attached HTML file. As you can see, the format of the HTML document is <em>completely different</em> from the format in the XML document, even though all of the information is there. But our formatters don't have to write code to do it, they can use XSL, and our content providers don't care, they can just use the same XML DTD or Schema they've always been using. The coders just have to pull in the XML, pull in the XSL, and spit out the end result. (I did it in ASP, with Microsoft's IE5 XML parser. It took ~7 lines of code in VBScript.) In case anyone is interested, the XSL I used to create the attached HTML file is pasted below. Apologies if it could have been done better, but this is the first time I've used XSL. (I'm using the XML parser that comes with IE5.) <?xml version='1.0'?> <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xsl"> <xsl:template match="/"> <html> <head> <title>Employee <xsl:value-of select="Employee/id"/></title> <style> p { MARGIN-LEFT: 2cm } h1 { FONT-FAMILY: Arial; FONT-SIZE: 19pt } h6 { FONT-FAMILY: Arial; } body { FONT-FAMILY: Arial Narrow } </style> </head> <body> <h1><xsl:value-of select="Employee/Occupation"/></h1> <p><b>Name</b>: <span><xsl:value-of select="Employee/Name/FirstName"/> <xsl:value-of select="Employee/Name/MiddleName"/> <xsl:value-of select="Employee/Name/LastName"/></span></p> <p><b>Incredibly Good Looking</b>: <input title='Incredibly Good Looking' type='checkbox'><xsl:if test="Employee/@IncrediblyGoodLooking[.='true']"><xsl:attribute name="CHECKED"/></xsl:if></input></p> <h6><xsl:value-of select="Employee/Aside"/></h6> </body> </html> </xsl:template> </xsl:stylesheet> Of course, the drawback to this is that if a page needs client-side script, our formatters STILL have to mix code with display. Thoughts? Flames? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Employee 123456.htm Type: application/octet-stream Size: 556 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://mailman.ic.ac.uk/pipermail/xml-dev/attachments/19990527/242d592c/Employee123456.obj From wunder at infoseek.com Thu May 27 20:10:32 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: searching for search In-Reply-To: <004b01bea557$0e4c6ce0$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990527105757.00ab1e80@corp> Disclaimer: I'm a Staff Engineer at Infoseek Corp. I work on Ultraseek Server, our search product (which can search XML). At 01:00 PM 5/23/99 -0700, Mark D. Anderson wrote: >Regarding the recent "Indexing XML Document Collections" thread... > >I'm interested in these questions: > >- in general, why would I pick one of these over another >(i.e. boolean query vs. structured query; scalability in size >or requests; pluggable format drivers for source data; >stemming and concept support; etc.) What is your search problem? If professional writers are searching in a repository they understand, you might give them pretty complex search. If Joe AOL is searching your public site, you have to give good results for one-word queries and give good results on the first page. >- in general, what are the features that push a technology >into another level of complexity and why (i.e. what is so >hard here?) Making something "excellent" instead of "pretty good" usually means that you have to actually deal with all the picky cases instead of pretending they don't exist. For example, our spider has special code for Lotus Domino, special code to recognize directory listings generated by various webserver, special code to handle spaces in filenames on MS FTP servers, and so on. Our spider has a *lot* more code than our search engine. >- specifically, what are the characteristics of each of >these in performance/reliability/features (personal experience >from non-vendors and public benchmarks are of course preferred, >but vendor claims might be of interest too) I'll mostly defer to customer evals and our product web site, but for scalability you can try out www.infoseek.de, which has about 10 million documents and does about 1 million queries/day. The search back end is stock Ultraseek Server, and the front end is a custom pagebuilder. >- can i safely ignore the non open source ones without giving >up capabilities Not really, at least according to our customers. In some areas, open source tools are competitive, in others, they aren't. Search is the latter. We routinely beat free tools in customer evals. Personally, I use a free editor (Emacs), but a commercial bug-tracking system (Globetrack). You've got to make your own evaluations, of course. >- if all i wanted to do was boolean search on field values with >no stemming/concept support, then regardless of how i did the >indexing, what is wrong with using standard b-trees and/or just >putting the index data in a sql db? Relevancy ranking would be nice. Going through thirty pages of hits really bites. And stemming does help. Phrase search helps a lot. Counting inter-site links helps with very short queries. Anti-spam algorithms help. Field weights help. Find Similar (query by example) is useful. Indexing Microsoft Word, PDF, PostScript, and XML is handy. And so on. Finally, please add this commercial product to your list: Ultraseek Server: http://software.infoseek.com/ wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Thu May 27 23:30:13 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:29 2004 Subject: CSS Parser Message-ID: <000001bea888$aafa46a0$5e70fea9@w21tp> I have found that, while everyone talks about CSS being a standard, there is actually only a handful of software supporting it. I think this is mainly because there is no equivalent of expat, XP, XML4J, etc. in the CSS world. Most CSS parser I have seen were integrated part of something else (i.e. Amaya, Mozilla, HotJava, etc.). Is there a publically available, production-quality, ready-to-use CSS parser out there written in Java? I would rather not kill a few summer weekends to write one myself if I can avoid it. Best, Don Park Docuverse xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri May 28 04:43:58 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: IMPORTANT: XML Infoset WD In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEHADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> from "Didier PH Martin" at May 26, 99 10:48:22 pm Message-ID: <199905280301.XAA14288@locke.ccil.org> Didier PH Martin scripsit: > SGML property sets could be defined with SGML elements. Are you planning to > include in the specs a way to specify an information set with XML elements? Yes, specifically an RDF Schema. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri May 28 04:41:26 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: A Proposal for Refactoring SAX In-Reply-To: <00bb01bea7e9$4f38e5a0$6f6167cb@james.harvestroad.com.au> from "James Tauber" at May 27, 99 10:24:05 am Message-ID: <199905280259.WAA14197@locke.ccil.org> James Tauber scripsit: > Another application that I would like (someone) to write is a character data > filter triggered by notation, which would again require grabbing notation > URIs. It's bottlenecked behind HAX (HTML as XML), which I think will be more generally useful, so I'm trying to push ahead with it. HAX is a SAX parser that understands and cleans up HTML. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Fri May 28 05:55:44 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Lotsa laughs In-Reply-To: <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> from "Lisa Rein" at May 26, 99 03:00:04 pm Message-ID: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> Lisa Rein scripsit: > I thought that an XML v. 1.0-compliant application needed to be > definable using a DTD (at this point) -- even if you didn't necessarily > write one up for it -- that it *should* be possible to do so for any XML > v 1.0-compliant application syntax. (like SMIL etc.) Is this NOT > correct? That is not correct. As long as the XML documents are well-formed, it is perfectly fine for there to be no DTD that describes them both. Instead, you can use any of the schema proposals, or English prose, or French alexandrines, or what you will.... > can, should, and must require? according to whom? Me. > In that sense David Megginson is the one "company". In BizTalk's case, > it would be MS - if the process and the specs were indeed to be made > public. Well, SAX was developed by an open process, like IETF standards are. Anyone could participate who wanted to, David wrote it all up, and the mailing list had opportunities to object. > 1) I thought on this very list the consensus was that, sometimes, RDF > document syntax CAN be specified using a DTD (or is that different from > saying that, sometimes, a DTD could be created for validating RDF > documents?) Exactly. Some documents can conform both to RDF and to a DTD, but the full amount of variation in RDF cannot be described by any DTD; in other words, no single DTD can describe all RDF documents. > > As long as the W3C-compliant schemas and the Microsoft schemas have > > the same meaning, one may freely create Biztalk-compliant documents > > without fear that they will change meanings. > > What do you mean "have the same meaning"? Do you mean "as long as they > are in compliance with each other?" I think we are saying the same > thing. (I was saying that as long as Microsoft schemas are in > compliance with the W3C's schema syntax. Ultimately MS "should" defer > to the other, not the other way around...) No, I meant that documents *described* by Biztalk schemas can equally well be described in another schema language, including the future W3C schema language, provided the W3C schema language is not severely broken, which is unlikely. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk Fri May 28 08:46:25 1999 From: guy-murphy at easynet.co.uk (Guy Murphy) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Groves? Please ::choke::.. Message-ID: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> Hi. XML? Pah! I know when I've been had. Scratch the surface and *AHA* WebSGML jumps out of the box and bites your nose off. ::cough:: Sorry, the sun's rising, and my bed's still in the other room calling to me. What exactly are "groves"? The clearest def I could get of them... [QUOTE] Groves are the abstract representation of an underlying notation and the in-memory realisation is constructed using a notation processor, for example the grove for an SGML instance is built by the SGML notation processor. [QUOTE] Now up until the last bit this sounds like DOM. Are groves just an object model? Oh and if anybody reading this is responsible for writting HyTime documentation... come the revolution you'll be among the first put against the wall and shot!... right after those people at the ISO. Goodnight Guy xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From heikki at citec.fi Fri May 28 08:43:14 1999 From: heikki at citec.fi (Heikki Toivonen) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: CSS Parser In-Reply-To: <000001bea888$aafa46a0$5e70fea9@w21tp> Message-ID: <001f01bea8d5$6d85fab0$2500a8c0@hto.citec.fi> > Don Park > I have found that, while everyone talks about CSS being a > standard, there is > actually only a handful of software supporting it. I think this is mainly > because there is no equivalent of expat, XP, XML4J, etc. in the CSS world. > > Is there a publically available, production-quality, ready-to-use > CSS parser > out there written in Java? I would rather not kill a few summer > weekends to > write one myself if I can avoid it. I do not know about Java. But Mozilla is open source, and it has a component based architecture (XPCOM), which in principle should enable you to extract just the CSS parser. I do not know high tightly the CSS parser is currently integrated to the rest of the system, but I'll post a question to the netscape.public.mozilla.layout newsgroup at news.mozilla.org. Go follow the discussion there. I'll try and remember to post a summary here as well. -- Heikki Toivonen http://www.doczilla.com http://www.citec.fi xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Fri May 28 09:42:32 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Groves? Please ::choke::.. In-Reply-To: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> References: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> Message-ID: <wk7lpthc49.fsf@ifi.uio.no> * Guy Murphy | | Now up until the last bit this sounds like DOM. Are groves just an | object model? In a sense, yes. However, the DOM is an API, while groves are just an abstract data model. (It's easy to create an API for it, but the standard doesn't do that.) Groves consist of two things: nodes and their properties. Properties can be named lists of nodes, lists of nodes, single nodes or simple data (text, numbers etc). Also, groves have what are called property sets which you can think of as a set of class definitions (or struct/record definitions) in a programming language. There is a default property set for SGML and that more or less corresponds to the DOM. However, you can also define property sets for, say, MPEG files and RTF files. And since HyTime is based on groves, this means that you can address into those kinds of data as well once you've defined their property sets. So, in a very real sense, groves are all about liberating the data from the syntax in which they are enslav^H^H^H^H^H^Hserialized and expressing their internal structure conceptually. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 15:57:25 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Groves? Please ::choke::.. References: <000701bea8d5$bcfdc280$e046fea9@fusax> Message-ID: <374E9E5E.57EFB121@prescod.net> Guy Murphy wrote: > > [QUOTE] > Groves are the abstract representation of an underlying notation and the > in-memory realisation is constructed using a notation processor, for example > the grove for an SGML instance is built by the SGML notation processor. > [QUOTE] > > Now up until the last bit this sounds like DOM. Are groves just an object > model? http://www.prescod.net/groves/shorttut It depends on your definition of "object model." I would argue that the DOM is not an "object model" but is rather an API that has an implicit object model underneath it. You could also argue that groves are not an object model because the objects described have no behavior so a better term would be data model. Anyhow, the concept is the same as the "XML Information Set" except more general, more formal and more flexible. The information set is a big step forward and something like groves is the next step: The grove model allows you to define *new* information sets for * non-XML media * for the abstract objects in new abstraction layers on top of XML. For instance in the grove world we can easily add "nodes" for hyperlinks and "properties" for namespaces without editing some centrally maintained "everything there is to know about XML" document. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 16:20:35 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> References: <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <14158.42213.350360.409498@localhost.localdomain> John Cowan writes: > Lisa Rein scripsit: > > > I thought that an XML v. 1.0-compliant application needed to be > > definable using a DTD (at this point) -- even if you didn't necessarily > > write one up for it -- that it *should* be possible to do so for any XML > > v 1.0-compliant application syntax. (like SMIL etc.) Is this NOT > > correct? > > That is not correct. As long as the XML documents are well-formed, > it is perfectly fine for there to be no DTD that describes them > both. Instead, you can use any of the schema proposals, or English > prose, or French alexandrines, or what you will.... In fact, Lisa and John are both right, but they're slightly at cross-purposes: 1. Any XML *document* that cannot be described by a DTD is not well-formed (I challenge anyone on the list to give me an example to the contrary). 2. An XML *document type* may contain restraints or allow structures that would be difficult or even impossible to model in a DTD. The XML document type describes the characteristics that group certain XML documents into a class -- these characteristics cannot always be described using a DTD, and, in fact, may make the writing of a general DTD for the whole class impossible. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 16:47:54 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> Message-ID: <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> Andrew Layman wrote: > > Regarding the discussion on non-retrievable URIs, you may want to look into > the URN spec, and more generally, at the paper "Naming and Addressing: URIs, > URLs, ... " at http://www.w3.org/Addressing/. I am not so upset about non-retrivable URIs in general as non-retrievable *URLs*. http://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/url-spec.txt "This document specifies a Uniform Resource Locator (URL), the syntax and semantics of formalized information for **location and access of resources on the Internet.**" Furthermore, that document defines the http:-syntax URL as being tied to the HTTP protocol which it clearly is not when it is abused as in xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" I haven't yet heard a defense (credible or otherwise) of this nasty and non-intuitive practice. If you don't want your URI to be locatable and retrievable on the Internet then *please do not use the URL syntax!* -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 17:07:39 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Furthermore, that document defines the http:-syntax URL as being > tied to the HTTP protocol which it clearly is not when it is abused > as in > > xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0" > > I haven't yet heard a defense (credible or otherwise) of this nasty > and non-intuitive practice. If you don't want your URI to be > locatable and retrievable on the Internet then *please do not use > the URL syntax!* There are two good arguments in favour, though no doubt these could be answered: 1. URNs don't really exist, or at least, last I checked, there was no authoritative specification of the different URN schemes (without which URNs are worthless). URNs have been under development for most of the 1990s with few tangible results, and I'm growing slightly skeptical. 2. DNS alone is not sufficient, because people acquire Web space based on also on protocol and directory partitioning; for example, I have control over the content of http://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins but *not* of ftp://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins or gopher://home.sprynet.com/sprynet/dmeggins To guarantee uniqueness (however temporary), I have to base the namespace on something that I some kind of unique access rights to, and in my case, the HTTP protocol is an integral part of that. Now, there is no reason that we couldn't embed the HTTP URL into a URN, except that (unless something has happened recently) there is no normative definition of URN schemes, therefore, there's nothing I can use. What alternative do I have to building my namespaces on top of URLs? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 17:37:18 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> There is a new document on the W3C site which is both encouraging and disturbing: """In characterizing the structure and content of the Web, it is necessary to establish precise semantics for Web concepts. The Web has proceeded for a surprisingly long time without consistent definitions for concepts which have become part of the common vernacular, such as "Web site" or "Web page".""" """This document represents an effort on the part of the W3C Web Characterization Activity to establish a shared understanding of key Web concepts.""" http://www.w3.org/1999/05/WCA-terms/ It is encouraging because it is long needed. It is disturbing because I believe it identifies a key problem with the Web (or with my understanding of the Web). This document refers to the URI specification in its definition of "resource": "...anything that has identity." This is troubling because there is no definition of identity. In the HyTime and object oriented worlds, I believe that the defining characteristic of things with identity is that you can take two references and determine if they refer to the same object. I do not see how to do this on the Web. Consider the following URLs: http://www.mitre.org/index.html http://www.mitre.org/ http://www.mitre.org Do they refer to the same resource? Let's try the answer both ways: YES: How do we know, other than common sense? What if the URLs were more radically different -- if the mitre site was also accessible as miter because French and English authors always swap their r's and e's? I would love to hear that there is some such thing as a "canonical URL" that I can retrieve through HTTP or WebDAV. If there is, it should be referred to in WCA-terms. Because the Web has a distinction between Web resources and resource manifestations it is even possible that when you access the same logical resource from different URLs it could return a different byte sequence ("entity" in HTTP terminology) so that even a byte compare will not reveal that the URLs refer to the same _logical resource_. NO: This is more disturbing. It makes robust, scalable hypertext linking essentially impossible. Consider it from an RDF point of view. If I use RDF to attach a hundred properties to one URL and someone else uses it to attach a hundred properties to another one then our property groupings cannot be merged. This also affects XLink. If one group of externally imposed XLinks refers to the site under one name and another group refers to the site under another, then those groups cannot be merged to create a single view. The only solution, if we assume a one to one correspondence between URLs and objects is to have EVERY NON-CANONICAL name for the object explicitly do a redirect to the canonical name. This is not common practice on the Web and as long as URLs are human-typable it is not likely to become common practice. If you move an object from the bowels of your Website (a hundred character URL) closer to the "top" (a 20 char. URL ) you aren't going to use HTTP redirect to redirect people from the nice new name to the older, canonical name. But if you change the canonical name then anything current attached to the document through out-of-line links will break. --- Summary: I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content or actually refer to the SAME THING. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk Fri May 28 18:12:12 1999 From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: New RXP release Message-ID: <7121.199905281614@doyle.cogsci.ed.ac.uk> A new version of RXP, 1.0.7, is available from ftp://ftp.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/pub/richard/rxp.tar.gz The main new features (compared with 1.0) are: - support for XML namespaces - an attempt at thread safety and, of course, new improved bugs. The thread-related changes (mostly getting rid of static variables) are completely untested, and I would particularly appreciate feedback from anyone who uses RXP in a multi-threaded envirnment. -- Richard xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From sowens at csdcorp.com Fri May 28 18:16:08 1999 From: sowens at csdcorp.com (Stephen Owens) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> Message-ID: <002a01bea926$3d4c6220$0201a8c0@csdcorp.com> Paul, > -----Original Message----- > Summary: > > I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't > already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document > should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL > was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure > out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content > or actually refer to the SAME THING. > Should the identity of the URL be defined by the content of the URL or by the intent/subject of that content? I ask because the same URL retrieved by two different browsers could differ wildly based on a server side browser detect. (Oh it's IE5, I'll send the XML version, Netscape 4, I'll send out something with layers). Should they still share a UUID? If not what's the relationship between URLs and UUIDs? regards, Stephen Owens Corner Software xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Fri May 28 18:37:40 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:30 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> References: <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> At 11:09 AM 5/28/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >1. URNs don't really exist, or at least, last I checked, there was no > authoritative specification of the different URN schemes (without > which URNs are worthless). URNs have been under development for > most of the 1990s with few tangible results, and I'm growing > slightly skeptical. > Can you clarify what you mean by "no authoritative specification of the different URN schemes"? I know that some of the IETF's URN Working Group documents are still in draft, but even the drafts are almost done, and there's certainly enough there to build a fully functioning URN resolution system. I know of at least a few large organizations that are starting to make serious use of URNs (including Library of Congress), and we're working on integrating URN resolution systems at the library here at Berkeley. I'd agree that URNs aren't exactly widely used at this point and the adoption curve has been slow, but adoption curves on technologies whose value increases based on the number of other people using it are always slow, even if the technology has obvious merit. How many people are using IP v6 yet, despite the fact that the IPv6 recommendation was first adopted back in 1994? There are times that I suspect that we all take this notion of "Internet Time" way too seriously. Things seem to be getting to the point where if something can't be specified, implemented and receive wide adoption (or at least wide-spread approval) in a year, people consider it a failure. There are a lot of worthwhile projects that take longer than that. I'm beginning to get worried that a lot of beneficial work in the SGML/XML community will get abandoned just because it doesn't match some artificial notion of how long it should take for a technology to be adopted. OK, enough digressing for one day.... Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From wunder at infoseek.com Fri May 28 18:50:29 1999 From: wunder at infoseek.com (Walter Underwood) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990528093751.00b00100@corp> At 10:01 AM 5/28/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > [...] Consider the following URLs: > >http://www.mitre.org/index.html >http://www.mitre.org/ >http://www.mitre.org > >Do they refer to the same resource? Let's try the answer both ways: Dublin Core defines a Resource Identifier element, which might be a good place to start, especially because libraries already have to deal with various kinds of identity (different bindings, "copy 2", same text from different publishers). The HTTP 1.1 entity tag is only meaningful for a single URL (at least in Draft 5), so it is mostly useful to caches. Also, some additonal complexities ... Don't forget content negotiation. The content could exist in many variants, with the entity delivered depending on the Accept*: headers in the request: format: HTML, XML, MS Word, PDF language: en-US, en-GB, fr, de, jp charset: 8859-1, UTF-8, EUC, Shift-JIS and the URL is always the same. Then there are dynamic pages--what is "identity" for a weather station? The page is in some sense "the same page", but the content depends on the temperature. Duplicated content is a real issue. Our search engine detects and rejects duplicates. The URL to unique document ratio is usually between 1.5 and 2. We do this detection across web servers, since we really only need to index one copy of an organization's acceptable use policy or the GNU copyleft. If a site has a CNAME, the entire site will be duplicates. Finally, some systems ignore case in file names, and relative URLs are resolved according to the URL you used in the GET, so we see: http://www.corp.com/dir/index.html http://www.corp.com/DIR/index.html http://www.corp.com/dir/INDEX.HTML http://www.corp.com/DIR/INDEX.HTML http://www.corp.com/DIR http://www.corp.com/DIR/ http://www.corp.com/dir http://www.corp.com/dir/ with combinatorial explosions on longer URLs. And a nightmare for robots and caching proxies. wunder -- Walter R. Underwood wunder@infoseek.com wunder@best.com (home) http://software.infoseek.com/cce/ (my product) http://www.best.com/~wunder/ 1-408-543-6946 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 19:15:45 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > In the HyTime and object oriented worlds, I believe that the > defining characteristic of things with identity is that you can > take two references and determine if they refer to the same object. But you cannot always take two references and determine if they do *not* refer to the same object -- that depends on the design. > I do not see how to do this on the Web. Consider the following URLs: > > http://www.mitre.org/index.html > http://www.mitre.org/ > http://www.mitre.org > > Do they refer to the same resource? Let's try the answer both ways: You left out the Scotch verdict, "not proven". [snip] > I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't > already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document > should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL > was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure > out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content > or actually refer to the SAME THING. Sounds like a simple enough extension to HTTP. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 19:27:32 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> References: <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <14158.52962.512510.570359@localhost.localdomain> Jerome McDonough writes: > At 11:09 AM 5/28/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: > >1. URNs don't really exist, or at least, last I checked, there was no > > authoritative specification of the different URN schemes (without > > which URNs are worthless). URNs have been under development for > > most of the 1990s with few tangible results, and I'm growing > > slightly skeptical. > > Can you clarify what you mean by "no authoritative specification of > the different URN schemes"? (I notice that the URN drafts call these "namespaces" rather than "schemes", so we will have to be careful to distinguish XML namespaces from URN namespaces.) At www.ietf.org, I find the following: 1. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-nid-req-08.txt This document lists the requirements for registering a URN namespace. 2. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-ietf-09.txt This document proposes the IETF namespace for RFDs, etc. 3. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-net-procedures-02.txt This document proposes a mechanism for using DNS to obtain resolution hints for URNs. 4. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-dns-rds-00.txt More on DNS and URN resolution.. 5. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-naptr-rr-02.txt More on DNS and URN resolution. Am I missing some other documents? As far as I can see, the only URN namespace that is proposed in an IETF draft is the IETF namespace, and I cannot use a URN in the IETF URN namespace to create my own XML namespace. Where can I find the IETF draft documents describing URN namespaces built on DNS, ISBN, UUIDs, etc.? Perhaps I just haven't looked in the right place. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 19:36:07 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > 1. URNs don't really exist, or at least, last I checked, there was no > authoritative specification of the different URN schemes (without > which URNs are worthless). URNs have been under development for > most of the 1990s with few tangible results, and I'm growing > slightly skeptical. When we had the namespaces discussion, I said that using URIs was a bad idea because URNs don't exist yet so everyone could only use URLs. I pointed out then that using URLs is bad and probably standards-nonconformant. I was told, however, that URNs DO exist. Anything that conforms to the URN syntax is a URN. I wasn't especially thrilled with this syntax-centric definition but there was no other definition of a URN and in the rather loosely formalized world of the Web what more could I expect? So I wasn't happy with the loose definition of URNs but I accepted that they exist. I see today, however, that we have a new document that clears up my concerns. It says: "Not all syntactically correct URN namespaces (per the URN syntax definition) are valid URN namespaces. A URN namespace must have a recognized definition in order to be valid." http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-nid-req-08.txt It also gives a mechanism for defining new URNs. Furthermore, last month a URN namespace was actually proposed as an Internet Draft: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-ietf-09.txt So now I think it can truly be said that URNs *exist* and can be used. Of course in the general case resolution could be a big problem but in the specific case of XML namespaces it is not. It is now both legal and appropriate for us to propose the hname: namespace which is defined to mirror the HTTP namespace (in terms of ownership and uniqueness) but be a URN instead of a URL and thus explicitly unretrievable. In the meantime, it seems that we can use an experimental namespace: "x-hname" and take our chances that nobody somewhere else on the Web will use the same name incompatibly. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 19:36:25 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <002a01bea926$3d4c6220$0201a8c0@csdcorp.com> Message-ID: <3777B124.3D1A5947@prescod.net> Stephen Owens wrote: > > Should the identity of the URL be defined by the content of the URL or by > the intent/subject of that content? I ask because the same URL retrieved by > two different browsers could differ wildly based on a server side browser > detect. (Oh it's IE5, I'll send the XML version, Netscape 4, I'll send out > something with layers). According to the new WCA-Terms work, those are resource manifestations. Even under the current web they have the same "identity" because they were retrieved with the same URL. > Should they still share a UUID? If not what's the relationship between URLs > and UUIDs? Yes. Two things with the same URL must certainly share a UUID no matter how textually different they are. The logical object behind them is the same. Without that much of a guarantee we can have no useful concept of identity at all. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Fri May 28 19:36:10 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990528102659.009cc6d0@library.berkeley.edu> At 10:01 AM 5/28/1999 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >It is encouraging because it is long needed. It is disturbing because I >believe it identifies a key problem with the Web (or with my understanding >of the Web). > >This document refers to the URI specification in its definition of >"resource": "...anything that has identity." This is troubling because >there is no definition of identity. In the HyTime and object oriented >worlds, I believe that the defining characteristic of things with identity >is that you can take two references and determine if they refer to the >same object. I take this definition of resource as reflecting a fairly sophisticated understanding of the reality of identifying and naming objects. A single URN identifying an abstract work may identify a variety of physical manifestations of the work. The physical manifestations retrieved may vary radically based on the social/technical context of the person resolving a URN. Two different URNs may refer to the same abstract work, and retrieve the same or different physical manifestations depending on the work identified, context of the resolver, etc. When you have two URNs identifying an abstract concept, I don't see how you can reliably determine computationally that they both identify the same thing. Nonetheless, we need the ability to identify abstract works. The definition of URIs, encompassing both URNs and URLs, had to deal with this need. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 19:46:18 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > But you cannot always take two references and determine if they do > *not* refer to the same object -- that depends on the design. "Do these refer to the same object?" => Yes/No/Maybe I'm not familiar with a system like that. Can you give an example? Obviously boolean logic is MUCH easier to work with than tri-nary logic. Is there a good reason to allow a system fully connected to the Internet with access to the URL to return "not proven?" > Sounds like a simple enough extension to HTTP. I agree. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 19:58:31 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <3.0.5.32.19990528093751.00b00100@corp> Message-ID: <3777B44F.AF1B96DC@prescod.net> Walter Underwood wrote: > > Don't forget content negotiation. Those are different manifestations of the same resource. I think that we eventually need to be able to address manifestations so that I could make a URL to the MS Word version of a document or to the PDF version explicitly...or even to the document with a particular CSS stylesheet applied. > Then there are dynamic pages--what is "identity" for a weather > station? The page is in some sense "the same page", but the > content depends on the temperature. Human beings decide identity. If we think of the weather page as a "thing", then we should assign it a Unique ID so that we can refer to it. Anyhow, if the two manifestations were retrieved with the same URL then the answer is already in the W3C specs: they are the same object. It is the multiple URL->one resource case that the Web does not currently seem to support. > Finally, some systems ignore case in file names, and relative > URLs are resolved according to the URL you used in the GET, > so we see: > > http://www.corp.com/dir/index.html > http://www.corp.com/DIR/index.html > ... > with combinatorial explosions on longer URLs. And a nightmare > for robots and caching proxies. Globally unique identifiers would help with that. Dynamic content will always be a nightmare but XML node inclusion could help by separating out the dynamic parts from the static parts. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Fri May 28 19:58:17 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990528105804.02e36380@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:01 AM 5/28/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >I believe that the Web needs a concept of a canonical URL, if it doesn't >already have one. Retrieving a document or the HEAD for the document >should describe the canonical URL. I wouldn't mind if the canonical URL >was a totally unreadable UUID as long as I can take two URLs and figure >out whether they refer to two things that happen to have the same content >or actually refer to the SAME THING. It's pretty crystal-clear that at the moment, given the existence of content negotiation, the web has no built-in concept of a canonical URI. While the idea has been attractive ever since Ted Nelson postulated (30 years ago) that in a networked environment there ought really only to be one instance of each object, all the attempts that I know of to address the issue of canonically naming things have shuffled down the path to dusty death, either quickly or slowly. This doesn't worry me. As Dan Connolly will tell you until your ears bleed, if you are an organization that cares about persistence, uniqueness, and managing your web space properly, there's nothing about plain ol' URLs that gets in the way. Empirically, it is the case that a lot of organizations who should know better are shoddy about the design of their web spaces in a way that, as Paul points out, is going to make it hard for them to take advantage of RDF. Maybe if we're lucky, since URLs are the only credible thing to hang Web metadata on, and since the need for ubiquitous Web metadata is becoming mind-numbingly obvious, people will be motivated to start doing the right thing. But we in the computing profession, as with all other professions, are all idiots at least some of the time... I am doubtful that any canonical-addressing scheme can combat the human propensity to screw up sometimes. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 20:16:05 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <3.0.5.32.19990528102659.009cc6d0@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3777B87B.70003861@prescod.net> Jerome McDonough wrote: > >Two different > URNs may refer to the same abstract work, and retrieve the same or different > physical manifestations depending on the work identified, context of the > resolver, > etc. When you have two URNs identifying an abstract concept, I don't see > how you can reliably determine computationally that they both identify the > same thing. Why can't you just ask the server? "I've got these two URNs. What's the Unique ID of the thing that they refer to?" -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Fri May 28 20:21:16 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14158.52962.512510.570359@localhost.localdomain> References: <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990528112051.01369320@library.berkeley.edu> At 01:24 PM 5/28/1999 -0400, David Megginson wrote: >(I notice that the URN drafts call these "namespaces" rather than >"schemes", so we will have to be careful to distinguish XML namespaces >from URN namespaces.) > >At www.ietf.org, I find the following: > >1. http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-urn-nid-req-08.txt > > This document lists the requirements for registering a URN > namespace. > [The documents you don't need at the moment deleted.] > >Am I missing some other documents? As far as I can see, the only URN >namespace that is proposed in an IETF draft is the IETF namespace, and >I cannot use a URN in the IETF URN namespace to create my own XML >namespace. > >Where can I find the IETF draft documents describing URN namespaces >built on DNS, ISBN, UUIDs, etc.? Perhaps I just haven't looked in the >right place. > No, you're looking in the right place, it's just that IETF drafts for particular URN namespaces (other than IETF's own namespace) don't exist yet. The Internet Draft "URN Namespace Definition Mechanisms" that you mention above contains the details on how name spaces will be registered with IANA (in brief, and to quote the draft, "In a nutshell, a template for the definition of the namespace is completed for deposit with IANA, and a NID is assigned." The template is mailed to the urn-nid@apps.ietf.org mailing group for discussion, and if it's a formal URN namespace proposal, after two weeks discussion the template information gets issued as an RFC.). Once a URN namespace is assigned by IANA, the people/organization in charge of the namespace makes the rules about how identifiers are assigned within that namespace. Since the Internet Draft hasn't gone to RFC status yet, the mechanisms for handling this namespace assignment aren't completely in place. So, people like me who are already playing with URNs are using the 'experimental namespace' described in the Internet Draft, e.g., for a page image file on a project I'm working on, the URN would look like: urn:x-ucb:I0018235 where x-ucb is the URN namespace, and as it's experimental, there's no guarantee there won't be a collision of namespaces with somebody else (no big deal for me at this point, given how I'm using URNs). Once the Internet Draft goes to RFC status, I expect quite a few people will start registering formal URN namespaces, and at that point, you'll start seeing a lot of non-standards track RFCs for URN namespaces like ISBNs, SICIs, DOIs, etc. starting to appear. Again from the Internet Draft, "URN namespace registrations will be posted in the anonymous FTP directory 'ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/iana/assignments/URN-namespaces/'." Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 20:24:40 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:31 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> References: <374EAFCB.249F2955@prescod.net> <14158.51753.653928.543191@localhost.localdomain> <3777B1E2.3EA5C103@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14158.56751.432502.816327@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > David Megginson wrote: > > > > But you cannot always take two references and determine if they do > > *not* refer to the same object -- that depends on the design. > > "Do these refer to the same object?" => Yes/No/Maybe > > I'm not familiar with a system like that. Can you give an example? You will often end up with two objects that represent conceptually the same thing but cannot be proven equivalent (two medicare records, for example); in fact, you may even have objects that share the same set of attributes but cannot be proven equivalent. There's also the case of lazy Java programmers who don't override java.lang.Object.equals() (that represents a significant percentage of existing Java code, I'd guess). > Obviously boolean logic is MUCH easier to work with than tri-nary > logic. No, in the case of URLs, it's still binary: "Are these known to refer to the same object?" => Yes/No And while a cononical URL is an easy extension to HTTP, the infrastructure to support it is another issue -- do I have to guarantee, for example, that a gzipped tar file of the same version of the Linux kernel source at two different mirrors return the same canonical URL? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 20:24:41 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14158.56382.661399.151104@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > So now I think it can truly be said that URNs *exist* and can be > used. Of course in the general case resolution could be a big > problem but in the specific case of XML namespaces it is not. I'm also grateful for the pointers and (as I mentioned in my previous posting) have already read the abstracts for the five existing IETF drafts. I'll take up Paul's points in turn: 1. "...it can truly be said that URNs *exist*..." Yes, but in such a restricted way that few (if any) members of this list could use them. 2. "... and can be used ..." Yes, but only by the IETF, unless the IETF starts assigning parts of its URN namespace to other users. XSL, for example, still cannot use a URN for a namespace today. As Paul mentioned later, we could use an x-* URN namespace, but that's actually less safe than a URL (it's not even guaranteed unique). Things will change fast once there are other URN namespaces available, but I can see no good case for arguing that people should be using URNs rather than URLs as namespaces today. Perhaps by the end of the summer, things will be different. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 21:02:57 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19990528112051.01369320@library.berkeley.edu> References: <3.0.5.32.19990528093111.009c9100@library.berkeley.edu> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <14158.52962.512510.570359@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.5.32.19990528112051.01369320@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <14158.58784.283238.109154@localhost.localdomain> Jerome McDonough writes: > No, you're looking in the right place, it's just that IETF drafts > for particular URN namespaces (other than IETF's own namespace) don't > exist yet. That's what I meant by "the URN schemes are not yet defined" (or whatever my wording was). In other words, URNs are not yet safe to use for XML Namespace URIs outside of the IETF (x-* URN namespaces are not guaranteed unique), but they may be soon. For now, we have to keep using URLs. Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From whisper at accessone.com Fri May 28 21:09:20 1999 From: whisper at accessone.com (David LeBlanc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <14158.42213.350360.409498@localhost.localdomain> References: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.19990528110617.015740f0@mail.accessone.com> Ok, now i'm confused David - your second statement seems to contradict your first statement. Dave LeBlanc At 10:21 AM 5/28/99 -0400, you wrote: >John Cowan writes: > > > Lisa Rein scripsit: > > > > > I thought that an XML v. 1.0-compliant application needed to be > > > definable using a DTD (at this point) -- even if you didn't necessarily > > > write one up for it -- that it *should* be possible to do so for any XML > > > v 1.0-compliant application syntax. (like SMIL etc.) Is this NOT > > > correct? > > > > That is not correct. As long as the XML documents are well-formed, > > it is perfectly fine for there to be no DTD that describes them > > both. Instead, you can use any of the schema proposals, or English > > prose, or French alexandrines, or what you will.... > >In fact, Lisa and John are both right, but they're slightly at >cross-purposes: > >1. Any XML *document* that cannot be described by a DTD is not > well-formed (I challenge anyone on the list to give me an example > to the contrary). > >2. An XML *document type* may contain restraints or allow structures > that would be difficult or even impossible to model in a DTD. > >The XML document type describes the characteristics that group certain >XML documents into a class -- these characteristics cannot always be >described using a DTD, and, in fact, may make the writing of a general >DTD for the whole class impossible. > > >All the best, > > >David > >-- >David Megginson david@megginson.com > http://www.megginson.com/ > >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 >To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >(un)subscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 21:31:11 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19990528110617.015740f0@mail.accessone.com> References: <199905280413.AAA17525@locke.ccil.org> <374C6EE4.572051B@finetuning.com> <14158.42213.350360.409498@localhost.localdomain> <3.0.1.32.19990528110617.015740f0@mail.accessone.com> Message-ID: <14158.60704.722872.118928@localhost.localdomain> David LeBlanc writes: (on DTDs) > Ok, now i'm confused David - your second statement seems to > contradict your first statement. If you give me a single, well-formed XML document, I can *always* write a DTD that describes its structure. If you give me a list of structural traits shared by a class of XML documents (otherwise known as a "document type"), I may not be able to provide an XML 1.0 DTD that applies to all possible documents in the same class but to none outside of the class. I may not even be able to write a DTD at all. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu Fri May 28 21:34:09 1999 From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity In-Reply-To: <3777B87B.70003861@prescod.net> References: <3.0.5.32.19990528102659.009cc6d0@library.berkeley.edu> Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.19990528122958.01374860@library.berkeley.edu> At 01:01 PM 6/28/1999 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >Jerome McDonough wrote: >> >>Two different >> URNs may refer to the same abstract work, and retrieve the same or different >> physical manifestations depending on the work identified, context of the >> resolver, >> etc. When you have two URNs identifying an abstract concept, I don't see >> how you can reliably determine computationally that they both identify the >> same thing. > >Why can't you just ask the server? "I've got these two URNs. What's the >Unique ID of the thing that they refer to?" Well, you've already got two unique identifiers for an abstract work. For a server to know whether or not those identifiers identify the *same* abstract work, either someone's going to have to established a linking database somewhere mapping the two together (not a requirement of any of the URN architecture proposals and shouldn't be) or your server is going to have to see what the identifiers resolve to, and try to make a determination based on that whether the URNs identify the same thing. But relying on the latter is truly ugly and unreliable. And I honestly don't anticipate too many people going to the effort of the former. Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU | (......) Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley | \ * * / Berkeley, CA 94720-6000 (510) 642-5168 | \ <> / "Well, it looks easy enough...." | \ -- / SGNORMPF!!! -- From the Famous Last Words file | |||| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Fri May 28 22:38:39 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: DTD confusion (was Re: Lotsa laughs) In-Reply-To: <14158.60704.722872.118928@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905282137530.23291-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> On Fri, 28 May 1999, David Megginson wrote: > David LeBlanc writes: > > (on DTDs) > > > Ok, now i'm confused David - your second statement seems to > > contradict your first statement. > > If you give me a single, well-formed XML document, I can *always* > write a DTD that describes its structure. As an aside, might be worth mentioning OCLC's Fred project here. http://www.oclc.org/fred/ Excerpt from http://www.oclc.org/fred/docs/about-fred.html As an electronic publisher, OCLC receives tagged text from several data sources. Often, this tagged text is not valid SGML since it does not have or conform to a Document Type Definition (DTD). Despite this, OCLC must build data transformations, databases, and interfaces for this tagged text. To address the lack of DTDs, Fred can automatically build DTDs from tagged text. [...] Dan -- Daniel.Brickley@bristol.ac.uk Institute for Learning and Research Technology http://www.ilrt.bris.ac.uk/ University of Bristol, Bristol BS8 1TN, UK. phone:+44(0)117-9287096 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 23:17:30 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Web Resource Identity References: <3.0.32.19990528105804.02e36380@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <374F0321.A428E915@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > It's pretty crystal-clear that at the moment, given the existence of > content negotiation, the web has no built-in concept of a canonical URI. > While the idea has been attractive ever since Ted Nelson postulated (30 > years ago) that in a networked environment there ought really only to be > one instance of each object, all the attempts that I know of to address > the issue of canonically naming things have shuffled down the path to > dusty death, either quickly or slowly. I don't see why it would be a big deal. Server developers would have a convention that defines "default" canonical URLs to everything. So http://www.foo.bar/index.html would return http://www.foo.bar/ They would also provide a mechanism for overriding the canonical URL on a per-document basis so that you could state that a particular file is really a mirror of another document. If you don't do that, its a different document. > This doesn't worry me. As Dan Connolly will tell you until your ears > bleed, if you are an organization that cares about persistence, uniqueness, > and managing your web space properly, there's nothing about plain ol' URLs > that gets in the way. I think that there is. I think that it is perfectly reasonable to want to have more than one URL for the same logical resource and allow RDF and XLink attachment to both names for the thing. The most obvious example is in mirroring. > I am doubtful that any canonical-addressing scheme can > combat the human propensity to screw up sometimes. -Tim That's not so much what I'm worried about. I think that having multiple names for a thing can be good practice both because names are human readable and because they are tied to machines. If I am right, then this (reasonable) practice should not mess up the Web's fundamental concept of identity. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Fri May 28 23:26:42 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> <14158.56382.661399.151104@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <374F0535.98217652@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > Yes, but only by the IETF, unless the IETF starts assigning parts > of its URN namespace to other users. XSL, for example, still > cannot use a URN for a namespace today. As Paul mentioned later, > we could use an x-* URN namespace, but that's actually less safe > than a URL (it's not even guaranteed unique). It's a question of balancing risk, standards conformance, etc. Using an HTTP URL is wrong, unintuitive and will have bad practical effects, even if it is safe from a uniqueness perspective. >From a pragmatic point of view, using an experimental namespace is uniqueness-safe even if it is not save from a theoretical point of view. If we, today, establish the x-mldev namespace then the chances of anyone accidently intruding on it are incredibly small. So SAX would use: urn:x-mldev://www.sax.org/features/blahblahblah (if you have registered the SAX domain) Besides, if we submit an internet draft for an hname: namespace then nobody is going to go off and invent a clashing one by accident. It's a question of us taking a little bit of extra effort to do the right thing. (I'm holding my breath here lest I get stuck with the job...If someone did it would people use it?) -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Fri May 28 23:50:05 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: XML Object Model Challenge: RDF vs. XMI Message-ID: <14159.2795.325799.373986@localhost.localdomain> I think that it would be very useful for someone to us to post the same simple object model in both the W3C's RDF Schema and the OMG's XMI, to help XML developers compare the two. I've included some simple Java classes and my attempt at an RDF Schema in this message; any takers for writing the equivalent XMI? Here's a very dumb object model as a set of Java classes (I'm using variables for class attributes instead of get/set methods with interfaces just to keep things short): public class Entity { public String name; public String startDate; public String endData; } public class Being extends Entity { public Being sire; public Being dame; } public class Person extends Being { public String nationality[]; } In RDF, I cannot express the fact that more than one nationality is allowed for Person, but otherwise, here's my best attempt at a bare-bones RDF Schema for the same object model: <?xml version="1.0"?> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rdfs="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#"> <rdfs:Class ID="Entity"/> <rdfs:Class ID="Being"> <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="#Entity"/> </rdfs:Class> <rdfs:Class ID="Person"> <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdfs:Class> <rdf:Property ID="name"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="startDate"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="endDate"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="sire"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Being"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="dame"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Being"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="nationality"> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Person"/> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> </rdf:RDF> I'd love to see the same thing in XMI. Any takers? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sat May 29 00:05:04 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <374F0535.98217652@prescod.net> References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08> <374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net> <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> <14158.56382.661399.151104@localhost.localdomain> <374F0535.98217652@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14159.4112.297828.79646@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Besides, if we submit an internet draft for an hname: namespace > then nobody is going to go off and invent a clashing one by > accident. It's a question of us taking a little bit of extra effort > to do the right thing. (I'm holding my breath here lest I get > stuck with the job...If someone did it would people use it?) I'd like to publicly thank Paul for enthusiastically volunteering to take on the work of submitting a proposal for an 'hname' URN namespace to the IETF. We all owe him a great debt, fame and fortune await him, etc., etc. If Paul proposes 'hname' and isn't immediately flamed to ashes by the URN elite, we should consider hname URNs for SAX2 features and properties as well as for XML namespaces. All the best, David <postscript> >From Alexander Pope, "Epistle to Dr. Arbuthnot" (201-204): Damn with faint praise, assent with civil leer, And without sneering, teach the rest to sneer; Willing to wound, and yet afraid to strike, Just hint a fault, and hesitate dislike; (Pope himself is flaming Addison, the most influential critic of his time.) </postscript> -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 00:57:58 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEKMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: There are two good arguments in favour, though no doubt these could be answered: 1. URNs don't really exist, or at least, last I checked, there was no authoritative specification of the different URN schemes (without which URNs are worthless). URNs have been under development for most of the 1990s with few tangible results, and I'm growing slightly skeptical. Didier says: David, I participated to the URN elaboration within IETF auspices. If you go the IETF official RFC repository you'll find that the RFC 2141 defining URNs is posted since already at least more than a year. So URNs are as real as XML is and because it is the byproduct of IETF probably created in a more democratic way than XML itself. Also, an other RDF has been created to specify how URNs are resolved with DNS. Bottom line there is an authoritative specification: RFC 2141. If you mean that there is not a lot of implementation of URNs, you are right. But URNs are well defined. and if you have a DNS server, you can even resolve a URN within your domain. Its only a question of entering the right DNS record and have a client aware of the URN resolution mechanism. This said, you may say that URN suffer from resistance in the market because of the legacy: the URL. And you'll be right. But you'll have to apply the same reasoning to XML and its own legacy : HTML. Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 01:28:27 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:32 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Paul Paul said: It is now both legal and appropriate for us to propose the hname: namespace which is defined to mirror the HTTP namespace (in terms of ownership and uniqueness) but be a URN instead of a URL and thus explicitly unretrievable. In the meantime, it seems that we can use an experimental namespace: "x-hname" and take our chances that nobody somewhere else on the Web will use the same name incompatibly. Didier says: We got a lot of dicussion on this subject in the IETF group and got at first the suggestion to register all name spaces at IANA. Most of us thought that this is however insuficient and a more formal registration mechanism would be needed (This still an open issue). If W3C needs a mechanism to resolve URNs this can be done through DNS And a client able to resolve the right DNS record (as you know there is more than just IP address records in DNS). W3C could maintain the DNS able to resolve the name space you mentioned and a client would then need to use the right DNS record to obtain the URL. The actual URN name resolution (Daniel Laliberte worked on this) returns one or more URL so that now you can get the needed document with one of the existing protocols.The good point here is that the DNS server act also as a repository. The client would have to connect to the W3C DNS server and for quality of function have a backup server somewhere else. This would be superor to a single URL resolution (if the server is down, Kaput :-) Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From donpark at quake.net Sat May 29 02:08:33 1999 From: donpark at quake.net (Don Park) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: XML Object Model Challenge: RDF vs. XMI In-Reply-To: <14159.2795.325799.373986@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <000001bea967$e171a680$7133fea9@w21tp> Well, here is what Argo/UML generates. Note the use of <multiplicity> tag with the nationality attribute. <?xml version = "1.0" encoding = "ISO-8859-1" ?> <!DOCTYPE XMI SYSTEM "uml.dtd" > <XMI> <XMI.header> <XMI.documentation> <XMI.exporter>Argo/UML</XMI.exporter> <XMI.exporterVersion>0.7.0</XMI.exporterVersion> </XMI.documentation> <XMI.metamodel name="uml" version="1.1"/> </XMI.header> <XMI.content> <Model XMI.id = "S.100025"> <name>untitledpackage</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100027"> <name>Entity</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100075"> <name>name</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100077"> <name>startDate</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100078"> <name>endDate</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100079"> <name>Being</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100083"> <name>sire</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </type> <!-- Type is: Being --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100084"> <name>dame</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </type> <!-- Type is: Being --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100080"> <name>Person</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100087"> <name>nationality</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100090"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String[] --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Generalization XMI.id = "S.100088"> <name></name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <discriminator> </discriminator> <subtype> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </subtype> <!-- subtype is: Being --> <supertype> <XMI.reference target="S.100027"/> </supertype> <!-- supertype is: Entity --> </Generalization> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Generalization XMI.id = "S.100089"> <name></name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <discriminator> </discriminator> <subtype> <XMI.reference target="S.100080"/> </subtype> <!-- subtype is: Person --> <supertype> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </supertype> <!-- supertype is: Being --> </Generalization> </ownedElement> </Model> <Class XMI.id = "S.100024"> <name>Stack</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100019"> <name>Rectangle</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100016"> <name>Long</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100008"> <name>byte</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100005"> <name>char</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100021"> <name>Color</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100010"> <name>float</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100014"> <name>Boolean</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100007"> <name>boolean</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100018"> <name>Double</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100003"> <name>String</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100023"> <name>Hashtable</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100020"> <name>Point</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100006"> <name>int</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100013"> <name>Integer</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100012"> <name>Character</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100015"> <name>Byte</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100090"> <name>String[]</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100022"> <name>Vector</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100011"> <name>double</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100017"> <name>Float</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100009"> <name>long</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100004"> <name>void</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> </XMI.content> </XMI> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 02:09:06 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14158.58784.283238.109154@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKNDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: That's what I meant by "the URN schemes are not yet defined" (or whatever my wording was). In other words, URNs are not yet safe to use for XML Namespace URIs outside of the IETF (x-* URN namespaces are not guaranteed unique), but they may be soon. For now, we have to keep using URLs. Didier says: Here is the simple mechanism the W3C can do (And the sentence "outside of IETF" has no real meaning unless you mean that outside W3c there is nothing ;-) Scenario: URN is used to obtain a document. a) W3C reserve a namespace and send to IANA a URN registration paper. b) install a DNS server and enter the right records to resolve URNs into URLs (for each "official schemas") c) All parsers in need to get a document about a particular name space (like for instance a schema or a DTD) could then use the DNS protocol (and of course connect to the W3C server - or the backup server) d) Then, all the URNs would be resolved as URLs and the document downloaded with the right protocol So, there is maybe something I am missing. Why is URNs not safe for XML name spaces? If we use URLs is it simply to fill an empty space :-) or is it because it points to a place where a document is stored? If it is because it points to a location where a document is stored. A URL has the disadvantage that if you change the location of this document, all documents having a reference to this location are no pointing to the right location and could not practically be validated. Do we sell XML as having a longer shelf life than other formats? If yes, URLs are dangerous because they are tightly connected to the location (the name itself tells it all a U_niversal R_esource **L_ocation**). A URN gives you location independence, the document may be moved to a different place and the URN will be still valid. You'll just have to change the DNS record but won't have to change every single document in the field. Have you read carefully not the drafts _but_ the **RFC 2141**. If yes, after this reading, what is the problem you have with URNs and what is your argument about the location problem inherent to URLs. What if we move the document form one location -URL- to a new one? Note: The official name space documentation may not necessarily be W3 but a registry somewhere so that people could register their official name space documentation (i.e for example a schema or DTD).You'll also resolve other problems with such registry like for instance e-commerce. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 02:21:39 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <14158.56382.661399.151104@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEKODGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: Yes, but only by the IETF, unless the IETF starts assigning parts of its URN namespace to other users. XSL, for example, still cannot use a URN for a namespace today. As Paul mentioned later, we could use an x-* URN namespace, but that's actually less safe than a URL (it's not even guaranteed unique). Things will change fast once there are other URN namespaces available, but I can see no good case for arguing that people should be using URNs rather than URLs as namespaces today. Perhaps by the end of the summer, things will be different. Didier says: Its not so linked to the fact there is other name spaces than if you want to use URNs as place holders or as names resolved with a DNS server that would return URLs. This, with the goal of location independence. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 02:25:59 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905290040310.23895-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Dan, Dan said: s/RDF/RFC/ ? Didier says: Is this a URN proposal Dan :-). Its ok as long as it is: urn:dan:s/RDF/RFC but for transmission your URN has to be encoded, so I suggest you the following URN: urn:dan:s:RDF/RFC :-) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 02:28:01 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14159.4112.297828.79646@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKELADGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Paul, David said: I'd like to publicly thank Paul for enthusiastically volunteering to take on the work of submitting a proposal for an 'hname' URN namespace to the IETF. We all owe him a great debt, fame and fortune await him, etc., etc. If Paul proposes 'hname' and isn't immediately flamed to ashes by the URN elite, we should consider hname URNs for SAX2 features and properties as well as for XML namespaces. Didier says: :-))) that's it Paul you got it :-))) Seriously, read carefully RFC 2141 and be cautious with "/". Slashes have to be encoded (like the famous space in URLs is encoded in %20) so I recommend you to use other kind of delimiters like for instance ":" like: urn:hname:context1:context2:context3 You do not need to use the site DNS address if the name revolver is connected with a DNS server having the right records. If the URN is just used as an identifier without the intention to resolve the URN into a URL then no problem you can use any kind of delimiter. I remember that guys from the VRML used URNs just as names with their own local revolver (not DNS). regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sat May 29 02:38:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEKMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> References: <14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEKMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <14159.14148.356604.263593@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > David, I participated to the URN elaboration within IETF auspices. If you go > the IETF official RFC repository you'll find that the RFC 2141 defining URNs > is posted since already at least more than a year. So URNs are as real as > XML is and because it is the byproduct of IETF probably created in a more > democratic way than XML itself. Also, an other RDF has been created to > specify how URNs are resolved with DNS. Bottom line there is an > authoritative specification: RFC 2141. The problem is that there are no authoritative specifications for any URN namespaces except the IETF one. If I wanted to use a URN for an XML Namespace today, how would I construct it without using an x-* URN namespace? All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Sat May 29 04:36:56 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: XML Inclusion Proposal Message-ID: <374F3305.886A2B5B@prescod.net> Please do not cross-post responses to this proposal because unfortunately discussions do not span mailing lists very easily. I look forward to opinions on both of the included lists. XML Node Inclusion Mechanism ============================ Abstract ======== This note describes the syntax and semantics of a simple node inclusion mechanism for XML. Inclusion allows documents and parts of documents to be reused automatically in multiple documents. It should be considered a structured alternative to XML's text entity mechanism. The note builds upon Web Characterization [Webchar], the XML Information Set [InfoSet] and the XLink and XPointer specifications. Scope ===== There are many reasons for wanting to include text. We divide them up into two categories: reuse for text management versus quotation with a rhetorical or sociological purpose. For the purposes of this document, we will refer to the former as inclusion and the latter as transclusion. For instance you might want to include boilerplate text for a copyright. In that case, the original context is not useful. The fact that the text was dynamically assembled is only an implementation detail. There is no rhetorical or sociological reason for the reuse. It is just an efficient way of structuring the text. This is inclusion. In another case, you might want to quote a verse from Hamlet. In this case there are various rhetorical and sociological implications of the reuse. The fact that the verse comes from Shakespeare is relevant to readers of the document. In this case, you would need the rendition to indicate clearly that the text is included. It may also provide a means for recovering the verse's original context. This is transclusion. This specification is too simple to completely cover rhetorically motivated quotation (transclusion). We assert that in general transclusion requires intelligent rendition decisions which can only be handled with sophisticated stylesheet support. Another complication with transclusion is that it must be possible to transclude diverse media types. Inclusion does not have that requirement. Processing Model ================ Overview: An inclusion process takes an XML document information set as input and produces a result information set. This process may involve many individual inclusions (i.e. copyright boilerplate could be included from one source and an introductory paragraph from another source). Inclusion Links: All XLinks in the input document with a link type of xml:include are inclusion links. Inclusion links explicitly or implicitly have two anchors: source and content. Source Anchor: The source anchor may be identified as an anchor described in a locator with the role "source". It must address a single node in the same document as the link. If an inline link has no locator named "source", then the local resource serves as the source anchor. Target Anchor: The target anchor may be identified by a locator with the role "content". If the link has no such locator but it has only one single remote resource then that resource may be used as the content anchor. Note: According to these rules, the simplest inclusion reference (without using defaulted attributes) uses this syntax: <xml:include xml:link="simple" href="blah blah blah"/> Software called an inclusion processor works from the information set for the input document, the documents containing the included nodes and generates an information set called the result. Process: The processing is recursive. It starts with the document node and progresses down to inclusion nodes and their inclusions. The result of processing the input document node is a result document node. The children of the result document node are the nodeset result of processing the input document's content (prolog, document element and epilog). The result of processing a node that serves as the source of an inclusion is a copy of the nodeset. The result of processing a document type declaration, processing instruction or character is an identical DTD, PI or character, as long as the node was not the source of an inclusion. The result of processing any non-source element node is a result element node with the same generic identifier and attributes. The content of the result element node is the result of processing the content of the source element. Iterations: The process of evaluating each node from the document down to the leaves (other than the children of source nodes) is called an iteration of the process. In many contexts it will make sense to process the result tree and the result of that process and so forth until there are no more source elements in a result tree. This is called a deep inclusion process. Note: a deep inclusion can be implemented in a single pass but the specification describes it as multiple passes because in some cases this may be convenient. Addressing: Although the Web is designed to allow anchors into manifestations of documents, it does not define a syntax that differentiates between links into the resource and links into the various client and server generated manifestations of the document, including transformation result trees. Typically, any reference is interpreted as being valid in all manifestations but this is not always the case and is specifically not the case with links into including documents. Until a generalized syntax is defined, we define an extension to XPointer and the XSL query language that allows us to do inclusions. include() is a function that takes a single document node as an argument and returns a nodeset representing the result of the inclusion process. By default it works upon the current node. Note: Therefore a reference such as somedoc.xml#include()//TITLE refers to all titles in the result of an inclusion process applied to somedoc.xml. deep-include() is a function that takes a single document node as an argument and returns a nodeset representing the result of the deep inclusion process. By default it works upon the current node. Limitations =========== The result of inclusion may not be valid according to the input DTD. This mechanism does not provide specific support to ensure that it will be. This responsibility is placed upon the creator of the including document. This is no more onerous than the same responsibility in the XML text entity mechanism. There is probably a market for authoring and validation software that will follow inclusion references and ensure that the logical result document will be valid. In the long term, it would be useful to have an XPointer/XSL QL extension that changed the document type declaration on a document node. Then result document types could be different from source document types. The mechanism does not preserve authorship information. The underlying XML data model does not support this concept. In other words, the technology does not defend against plagerism. In our opinion, this strictly mechanical layer is not the correct place to enforce a high level concept like ownership. People who want to plagerise can use many other techniques just as easily as they can use this one. IDs in the included documents must be chosen so that they do not clash. Future versions of SGML and XML schemas will probably support ID scopes to avoid this problem. Future Work: ============ It is only possible to include parts of other resources that have an information set that is compatible with XML's. The term "compatible with" is loosely defined at this point but could be made more explicit if there were information sets for multiple media types and if those information sets could build upon each other through subtyping. Right now, neither HTML nor generic SGML have information sets. Parts of those documents cannot be included. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sat May 29 06:27:40 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <5BF896CAFE8DD111812400805F1991F708AAF60B@RED-MSG-08><374EA602.CF784902@prescod.net><14158.44989.903230.808093@localhost.localdomain><3777ADCC.3F789B0C@prescod.net><14158.56382.661399.151104@localhost.localdomain><374F0535.98217652@prescod.net> <14159.4112.297828.79646@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <009201bea98b$35b8bbc0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > If Paul proposes 'hname' and isn't immediately flamed to ashes by the > URN elite... When I proposed pretty much the same thing to TimBL at WWW8, he didn't like, Rohit Khare didn't like and RK said Roy Fielding wouldn't like it. Good luck, Paul :-) James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Sat May 29 07:47:46 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14158.52962.512510.570359@localhost.localdomain> from "David Megginson" at May 28, 99 01:24:51 pm Message-ID: <199905290606.CAA15707@locke.ccil.org> David Megginson scripsit: > Where can I find the IETF draft documents describing URN namespaces > built on DNS, ISBN, UUIDs, etc.? Perhaps I just haven't looked in the > right place. An URN built on DNS would suck serious wind. There have been four owners of spam.org so far that I know of, and nothing to prevent each of them from issuing URNs based on that name which conflict. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk Sat May 29 10:01:44 1999 From: Daniel.Brickley at bristol.ac.uk (Dan Brickley) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <199905290606.CAA15707@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905290859240.24427-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> On Sat, 29 May 1999, John Cowan wrote: > David Megginson scripsit: > > > Where can I find the IETF draft documents describing URN namespaces > > built on DNS, ISBN, UUIDs, etc.? Perhaps I just haven't looked in the > > right place. > > An URN built on DNS would suck serious wind. There have been four > owners of spam.org so far that I know of, and nothing to prevent > each of them from issuing URNs based on that name which conflict. Would qualifying the DNS name with a date sort this? urn:x-hname:spam.org:1999-05-29:schemata:MakeMoneyFast If I owned spam.org for a week, I could through my life issue hname URIs in this form where there date element fell within the period of my ownership... Thinking out loud, Dan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s.livingstone at btinternet.com Sat May 29 11:45:09 1999 From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: XML/XSL Tools Message-ID: <00d301be9225$4995ec80$4250a90a@intranet> As a matter of interest, what kind of tools are people developing to make XSL/XML more GUI/RAD based. I use MS Visual Interdev, but for the moment, my XML is doen using XML Notepad - now this is useful, but falls miles away from all the functionality which can be acheived with a fully developed tool. What tools are around/in development and does anyone know if VI 7 shall support XML?? thanks steven Steven Livingstone Director, Networking Technical Associates The Citi Exchange - http://www.citix.com Scottish President AIP - http://www.citix.com/AIP email : ceo@citix.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From s.livingstone at btinternet.com Sat May 29 12:11:14 1999 From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: XML DTD/XML-Schema Standards Message-ID: <013f01be9228$f1a54580$4250a90a@intranet> Can someone clear something up for me. One major point with XML is to be able to describe your information which would then allow it to be passed around to other companies applications and it could still be interpreted. DTD's/XML-Schema have the job of making this simple allowing this information to be created according to a standard 'template'. My question is 'Who currently <i>controls</i> this?' and what are the plans for this in the future. Is there a DTD resource where you can know that your info shall be able to be shared??? I ask because I am starting to develop some Corporate and E-Commerce XML applications and I would like to either follow a standard so that we won't have problems over the next few years. If someone is not taking some level of responsibility, the we should probably start to. thanks Steven Steven Livingstone Director, Networking Technical Associates The Citi Exchange - http://www.citix.com Scottish President AIP - http://www.citix.com/AIP email : ceo@citix.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jjc at jclark.com Sat May 29 12:23:22 1999 From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:33 2004 Subject: Expat 1.1 released Message-ID: <374FBED0.EE1615EB@jclark.com> Expat 1.1 is now available. See http://www.jclark.com/xml/expat.html for more information. There have been no code changes since the last test release. New features of 1.1 relative to 1.0 include: - Support for XML namespaces - Ability to report comments - Ability to report CDATA section boundaries - Ability to report which attributes are defaulted - Compile option to reduce object-code size at the expense of speed Expat can be used under either the Mozilla Public License Version 1.1 or the GNU General Public License. James xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Sat May 29 12:31:41 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: XML Object Model Challenge: RDF vs. XMI In-Reply-To: <14159.2795.325799.373986@localhost.localdomain> References: <14159.2795.325799.373986@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <14159.49235.135036.204513@localhost.localdomain> This message contains my original Java version of a set of classes, the RDF schema representation (corrected so that rdfs:range and rdfs:domain are transposed), and an autogenerated XMI representation contributed by Don Park. The XMI representation is painfully verbose, probably because it was created by a machine rather than by a human (it also seems to define a lot of generic Java stuff), so perhaps it could be made much shorter with human intervention -- can anyone trim it down? Here's my original Java version, again: ====================8<====================8<==================== public class Entity { public String name; public String startDate; public String endData; } public class Being extends Entity { public Being sire; public Being dame; } public class Person extends Being { public String nationality[]; } ====================8<====================8<==================== Here's a corrected version of my RDF schema, with rdfs:range and rdfs:domain transposed: ====================8<====================8<==================== <?xml version="1.0"?> <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#" xmlns:rdfs="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#"> <rdfs:Class ID="Entity"/> <rdfs:Class ID="Being"> <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="#Entity"/> </rdfs:Class> <rdfs:Class ID="Person"> <rdfs:subClassOf rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdfs:Class> <rdf:Property ID="name"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="startDate"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="endDate"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Entity"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="sire"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Being"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="dame"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Being"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="#Being"/> </rdf:Property> <rdf:Property ID="nationality"> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#Person"/> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/PR-rdf-schema-19990303#Literal"/> </rdf:Property> </rdf:RDF> ====================8<====================8<==================== Here's the auto-generated XMI that Don Park posted: ====================8<====================8<==================== <?xml version = "1.0" encoding = "ISO-8859-1" ?> <!DOCTYPE XMI SYSTEM "uml.dtd" > <XMI> <XMI.header> <XMI.documentation> <XMI.exporter>Argo/UML</XMI.exporter> <XMI.exporterVersion>0.7.0</XMI.exporterVersion> </XMI.documentation> <XMI.metamodel name="uml" version="1.1"/> </XMI.header> <XMI.content> <Model XMI.id = "S.100025"> <name>untitledpackage</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100027"> <name>Entity</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100075"> <name>name</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100077"> <name>startDate</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100078"> <name>endDate</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100003"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100079"> <name>Being</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100083"> <name>sire</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </type> <!-- Type is: Being --> </Attribute> </feature> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100084"> <name>dame</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </type> <!-- Type is: Being --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Class XMI.id = "S.100080"> <name>Person</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> <feature> <Attribute XMI.id = "S.100087"> <name>nationality</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <ownerScope XMI.value="instance"/> <changeable XMI.value="none"/> <multiplicity>1</multiplicity> <targetScope XMI.value="instance"/> <initialValue> </initialValue> <type> <XMI.reference target="S.100090"/> </type> <!-- Type is: String[] --> </Attribute> </feature> </Class> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Generalization XMI.id = "S.100088"> <name></name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <discriminator> </discriminator> <subtype> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </subtype> <!-- subtype is: Being --> <supertype> <XMI.reference target="S.100027"/> </supertype> <!-- supertype is: Entity --> </Generalization> </ownedElement> <ownedElement> <Generalization XMI.id = "S.100089"> <name></name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <discriminator> </discriminator> <subtype> <XMI.reference target="S.100080"/> </subtype> <!-- subtype is: Person --> <supertype> <XMI.reference target="S.100079"/> </supertype> <!-- supertype is: Being --> </Generalization> </ownedElement> </Model> <Class XMI.id = "S.100024"> <name>Stack</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100019"> <name>Rectangle</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100016"> <name>Long</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100008"> <name>byte</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100005"> <name>char</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100021"> <name>Color</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100010"> <name>float</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100014"> <name>Boolean</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100007"> <name>boolean</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100018"> <name>Double</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100003"> <name>String</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100023"> <name>Hashtable</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100020"> <name>Point</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100006"> <name>int</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100013"> <name>Integer</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100012"> <name>Character</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100015"> <name>Byte</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100090"> <name>String[]</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <Class XMI.id = "S.100022"> <name>Vector</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100011"> <name>double</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <Class XMI.id = "S.100017"> <name>Float</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> <isActive XMI.value = "false"/> </Class> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100009"> <name>long</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> <DataType XMI.id = "S.100004"> <name>void</name> <visibility XMI.value = "public"/> <isAbstract XMI.value="false"/> <isLeaf XMI.value="false"/> <isRoot XMI.value="false"/> </DataType> </XMI.content> </XMI> ====================8<====================8<==================== All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From bmhughes at ozemail.com.au Sat May 29 12:46:23 1999 From: bmhughes at ozemail.com.au (Baden Hughes) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: slightly OT: registry of markup languages ? Message-ID: <000501bea9c0$abb78a60$3e636bd2@bskorea.or.kr.bskorea.or.kr> does anyone know of a 'registry' of XML-based markup languages ? thanks baden xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From davids at mannanetwork.com Sat May 29 15:35:23 1999 From: davids at mannanetwork.com (David Soroko) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Is XPointer dead? Message-ID: <000001bea9e0$bc9f2f70$30a3003e@euronet> What is the current status of the XPointer effort. The last spec is from March 98. Is it dead? =================================================== David Soroko mailto://davids@mannanetwork.com http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Campus/1628/ Manna Network Technologies =================================================== xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Sat May 29 16:39:29 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Is XPointer dead? In-Reply-To: <000001bea9e0$bc9f2f70$30a3003e@euronet> References: <000001bea9e0$bc9f2f70$30a3003e@euronet> Message-ID: <wkyai82b1q.fsf@ifi.uio.no> * David Soroko | | What is the current status of the XPointer effort. The last spec is from | March 98. | Is it dead? It's not dead, but it's been waiting for the infoset WD. And now that the infoset WD is here harmonization with the XSL pattern syntax is being looked into, so it will still take a while before we see the next WD. --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 16:43:49 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <14159.14148.356604.263593@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELIDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi david, David said: The problem is that there are no authoritative specifications for any URN namespaces except the IETF one. If I wanted to use a URN for an XML Namespace today, how would I construct it without using an x-* URN namespace? Didier says: Of course this name space (NID) was presented to IANA. There is a paper explaining the name space registration process. You can register your own name space. The IETF name space is here just as an example. Just imagine a second what would be your reaction if I would come to you and says that I cannot create a XML document because there is no official DTD for the document. A second, just imagine that. If you want a name space just register it to IANA (in case you want to make it official). And you don't need to put a "x-". If you choose hname for your "NID" and if its not already registered than that's it you have this NID for all your URNs. Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 16:53:59 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <199905290606.CAA15707@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: An URN built on DNS would suck serious wind. There have been four owners of spam.org so far that I know of, and nothing to prevent each of them from issuing URNs based on that name which conflict. Didier says: Not necessarily. If the name space provider has a DNS server in its own domain (ex: W3C). And if that DNS server includes records needed for URN name resolution, you won't have name conflict. This obviously, if the main domain is not in conflict itself. Let's say that the domain is W3c.org. <Question> is this name in conflict with other DNS registered names</question>. If you answer no. Then, there would be no problem with the DNS based URN name resolution. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 16:53:59 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <009201bea98b$35b8bbc0$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> HI James, James said: When I proposed pretty much the same thing to TimBL at WWW8, he didn't like, Rohit Khare didn't like and RK said Roy Fielding wouldn't like it. Good luck, Paul :-) Didier says: What did all these guys wouldn't like: a) the usage of URN? b) the "hname" NID? Regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 17:04:08 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <Pine.GHP.4.02A.9905290859240.24427-100000@mail.ilrt.bris.ac.uk> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Dan, Dan said: Would qualifying the DNS name with a date sort this? urn:x-hname:spam.org:1999-05-29:schemata:MakeMoneyFast If I owned spam.org for a week, I could through my life issue hname URIs in this form where there date element fell within the period of my ownership... Didier says: First you don't need to include a DNS domain name in the urn. In fact by doing so you introduce a location dependant context. URNS should be location independent. So, your urn should be: urn:x-hname:1999-05-29:schemata:MakeMoneyFast Algorithm to resolve the name into a location: a) the client connects to a DNS server (this is, in that case the name space respository - let's say its W3C) b) the client requests for a particular DNS record which contains a set of URL attached to a URN. c) The DNS server send to the client a URL collection attached to the URN d) the client uses the URL to fetch the document _located_ at the URL. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sat May 29 17:10:50 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Is XPointer dead? In-Reply-To: <000001bea9e0$bc9f2f70$30a3003e@euronet> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIELKDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: What is the current status of the XPointer effort. The last spec is from March 98. Is it dead? Didier says: No, its at the intensive care. Its under the oxygen tent, plugged to the respiratory system. W3C is making transplant experimentations with it :-))) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From csgallagher at worldnet.att.net Sat May 29 21:41:18 1999 From: csgallagher at worldnet.att.net (WorldNet) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: XML Validation Issues Revisited Message-ID: <000001beaa0b$07ff8120$0a000a0a@csg> If this thread can stand to be revisited I would interject with a question asking, "after all is said and done academically one needs to determine one's personal investment regarding the value of all that has been or ever would hope to be if there is going to be a subversion of the purpose of validating documents"? Backwards compatibility is just that. Backwards. Maybe somebody can 'splain it to Ricky? Why should anyone continue to work to achieve the best that one can achieve when it is only to be subverted to satisfy the ethos of the greedy stinking employers who comb their hair over the side of their heads? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jtauber at jtauber.com Sun May 30 05:10:58 1999 From: jtauber at jtauber.com (James Tauber) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <007301beaa4a$3e31b760$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> > James said: > When I proposed pretty much the same thing to TimBL at WWW8, he didn't like [it], > Rohit Khare didn't like [it] and RK said Roy Fielding wouldn't like it. > Good luck, Paul :-) > > Didier says: > What did all these guys wouldn't like: > > a) the usage of URN? > b) the "hname" NID? They just didn't seem to have a problem with the notion that a single URL scheme would be used for both retrieving machine readable information and for an irretrievable unique name. I used the example of the XSLT namespace URI: http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 The URI above currently gives a 404. It is an irretrievable unique name. Point to note at this stage: I don't have a problem with irretrievable unique name URIs. *However*, I asked TimBL why on earth use an http URI for this. He and Rohit both chimed that, some time down the track, it will the URL for a document describing the namespace. I told them that my problem with that is that is then you have the *same* URI being used for both the namespace itself and a document describing the namespace. Both TimBL and Rohit (who invoked Roy Fielding's PhD thesis) said they didn't see that there was any distinction that warranted different URIs. It occurred to me that maybe namespaces were a bad example, so I used the example from the RDF model and syntax REC of an http URL being used to uniquely identify a person: http://www.w3.org/staffId/85740 That URI can be used in RDF to uniquely identifier someone. You can make assertions about that URI and thereby make assertions about the person. Fine, I can buy that. But is there a retrievable document at the end of that URL? If not, why use an http scheme? Ah, but there *will* be a document at the other end: something describing the irretrievable resource to which the URI refers. But hang on, how then do you distinguish between talking about the irretrievable resource (the person) and the document *about* the resource. What would it mean to assert the "Creator" of http://www.w3.org/staffId/85740 ? (Is it the creator of the document about the person or the Creator Himself :-) ?) I was arguing for a URI scheme that resembled http in it form but the was not designed to be retrieved. I was agnostic as to the actual scheme identifier but basically, "hname" is what I want. I want to be able to use hname://www.w3.org/staffId/85740 as my irretrievable resource to avoid confusion as to what it is I'm talking about when I make RDF assertions, etc. Maybe I've just missed something. When TimBL, Rohit Khare and (by proxy) Roy Fielding disagree with you on a URI matter, it is worth being nervous. JamesT xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de Sun May 30 11:36:42 1999 From: rbourret at ito.tu-darmstadt.de (Ronald Bourret) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: slightly OT: registry of markup languages ? Message-ID: <01BEAA90.B0F74440@grappa.ito.tu-darmstadt.de> Baden Hughes wrote: > does anyone know of a 'registry' of XML-based markup languages ? See http://www.schema.net/ -- Ron Bourret xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ricko at allette.com.au Sun May 30 14:11:05 1999 From: ricko at allette.com.au (Rick Jelliffe) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:34 2004 Subject: Request for Comments: DOM Interface header for C available Message-ID: <005101beaa8d$d807c0d0$08f96d8c@NT.JELLIFFE.COM.AU> I have made a C header file for the W3C DOM interface: http://www.sinica.edu.tw/~ricko/src/dom_interface.h I would like to get comments from interested XML-DEVers before I finalize it. It is just a C struct with slots for all the function calls. It should allow multiple implementations of DOM to be available to the same program. (It is accepted by Sun's cc & lint, GCC -pedantic, GCC -Wall, GCC -wstrict, GCC -Wtraditional, & GCC -ansi.) I think it makes DOM's relation to C fairly clear. There are several loose ends: * should error-handling be less implementation-dependent? * how to handle namespaces? * xml:lang, xml:space & xmlns:* are inherited attributes that probably would be better handled using a searching call, e.g. DOM_get_currently_applicable_attribute_value(Attr *name) Rick Jelliffe (as private individual ) xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sun May 30 15:57:54 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <007301beaa4a$3e31b760$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEMGDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi James, [Explanation....] Indeed we have here two problems: a) a unique identifier b) a location The former as used in your user example do not need to have a location but a "unique name". The latter obviously a "place where something is stored". We face here the classical URL, URC, URN triad. The best configuration being: a) a name to uniquely identify things (U_niversal R_esource N_ame) b) a set of properties attached to this name (U_niversal R_esource C_haracteristics) c) one of these properties is a location (U_niversal R_esource L_ocation) For people versed in directory services concepts or Grove concepts (recently a copycat of groves: information sets) and more generally in object concepts will recognize the classical problem of classes, instances and properties (property sets being constrained or not by a schema) It seems that for the problem we try to resolve URNs brings better results. Why? a) a URN could used as a unique identifier . i.e. a "name" b) later on, this name could be used to find a "place" where something is stored with a name resolution mechanism. One officially proposed at IETF is the DNS. Other resolution mechanisms could also created and URNs are not solely restricted to DNS name resolution. Ideally, we should evolve toward directory schemas where "names" posses "properties", one or several of these properties could be "locations". For instance, today, LDAP directories elements could be reached with a "LDAP" URL. This URL is a query to the directory service and the URL's schema indicates obviously the LDAP protocol. This URL could be replaced by a URN like in the example below: URL -> LDAP://ldap.itd.umich.edu/c=us into URN -> URN:LDAP:c=us What's missing now is a common name space like actually found with DNS. Originally, the X500 name space was intented for this purpose. Today, we have to specify the target LDAP server in the query URL. In URN we may not have to do so. We would have to just enter, like for DNS name spaces, the nearest LDAP directory in the system configuration (we do that today for DNS). Waht's missing today, is a way for LDAP server to share part of a more global name space. However, several groups are working toward that goal (not always in concert, but we progress). We are slowly, but surely progressing toward the following structure: Objects uniquely identified by names (URN) properties associated to this object (URC) one of these property is a location (URL) Conclusion: it is better to use URNs than URLs. However "names" have to be thought with evolution in minds. So that one day, they could be used to retrieve the properties associated to this name. One of these properties being the location where the document is located. The document may be the complete documentation concerning a particular document architecture. To put in a name a "place" won't assure longevity to a name and it would be funny to observe how incongruous we are because a main selling point for XML is the document longevity :-)). However, it is possible to have unique names wihout having to use URLs like for instance a combinaison of a name and a date (the probablility that two persons have the same name and date is quite low). A unique identifier like for instance RPC UUID. A Creator's name + date + doctype (here again we reduce the probablity of name collision). And I am sure that with the brain power we have here a better schema could be invented than the one I proposed. So hname makes sense as long as we find a good naming schema with low name collision probability. Later on, this "hname" name space (in the URN sense) could be resolved in a "place" where the doc architecture is stored. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cowan at locke.ccil.org Sun May 30 17:51:00 1999 From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> from "Didier PH Martin" at May 29, 99 10:40:07 am Message-ID: <199905301609.MAA25329@locke.ccil.org> Didier PH Martin scripsit: > Not necessarily. If the name space provider has a DNS server in its own > domain (ex: W3C). And if that DNS server includes records needed for URN > name resolution, you won't have name conflict. This obviously, if the main > domain is not in conflict itself. Let's say that the domain is W3c.org. And what happens when the W3C has gone out of business, and the domain name is reused by the Webley Window Washers' Consortium? > <Question> is this name in conflict with other DNS registered > names</question>. If you answer no. Then, there would be no problem with the > DNS based URN name resolution. Not now, but URNs are supposed to be stable. In any event, I was not talking about DNS-based URN resolution, but DNS-based URN creation. -- John Cowan cowan@ccil.org e'osai ko sarji la lojban. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Sun May 30 20:17:52 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: URN Madness (was re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <199905301609.MAA25329@locke.ccil.org> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEMJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi John, John said: And what happens when the W3C has gone out of business, and the domain name is reused by the Webley Window Washers' Consortium? Didier says: What happens if your ISP or your DNS server provider is out of business? Usually, the best thing is to be connected to two different DNS server (from two different providers). If the first one is down then the second one can take the request. If the first one is out of business the second one can take it. If both are out of business we call that a lack of good planning :-)) (look at your DNS setup. You always have two DNS server addresses. A main and a backup) > <Question> is this name in conflict with other DNS registered > names</question>. If you answer no. Then, there would be no problem with the > DNS based URN name resolution. John said: Not now, but URNs are supposed to be stable. In any event, I was not talking about DNS-based URN resolution, but DNS-based URN creation. Didier says: If you think that in the future these URN will be used to be resolve into a location, then yes, if is better to register the name space or NID to IANA. If URNs becomes very popular, we'll have to set a better registration mechanism. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Stefan.Zimmermann at materna.de Mon May 31 11:38:24 1999 From: Stefan.Zimmermann at materna.de (Zimmermann, Stefan) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Looking for a EDIFACT from/to XML converter !! Message-ID: <23B6DB75C598D111872B00C04F9BF0018267D7@ntexc1mat.Materna.DE> Hello list, I'm looking for a EDIFACT from/to XML converter !! Maybe somebody know one. The following features are important, but not absolutly essential: - supports Siemens RMxxx with SINIX Version 5.43 (or higher) or Solaris - run as a batch prozess - provide a API - convert up to 2500 messages (1-10 KB/message) per hour - possiblility to archive the converted messages - possiblility to log the conversion or conversion errors - fexible adaptation to new or changed messages types - a commercial tools with guarantee and service - and all what's nice :) Maybe other things are important to have. Please let me know ! And a few question: Which requirement are advisable to make a conversion between the two formats ? Is a sensible conversion betweens this formats possible ? Which informations go lost during the conversion ? Can I find a FAQ with themes like these ? (I'm a novice and not very familar with EDIFATC and XML, so maybe some of these demands or questions are nonsense.) Stefan xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From ssahuc at imediation.com Mon May 31 12:04:13 1999 From: ssahuc at imediation.com (Sebastien Sahuc) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Tools generating DTD into plain english (HTML or ps...) Message-ID: <C10B7E3A3AC3D211804E0000B45EDA8407D4BC@pdc.imediation.com> Hi There, As I have couples of Objects described in a DTD, I would like them to be written in a 'plain understandable english' for instance HTML document. So my question is : Is there a way to generated such a HTML document from a DTD describing a business model ? Thank for any reply you should provide. Sebastien Sahuc xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From north at Synopsys.COM Mon May 31 12:16:07 1999 From: north at Synopsys.COM (Simon North) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Tools generating DTD into plain english (HTML or ps...) In-Reply-To: <C10B7E3A3AC3D211804E0000B45EDA8407D4BC@pdc.imediation.com> Message-ID: <199905311017.MAA06220@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com> Sebastian Sahuc asked: > Is there a way to generated such a HTML document from a > DTD describing a business model ? If I've understood your question correctly, yes there is. Earl Hood created a marvellous Perl tool called dtd2html that converts a DTD into a set of linked HTML pages. I believe it's included in most Perl archives, but the homepage for the PerlSGML suite is at: http://www.oac.uci.edu/indiv/ehood/perlSGML.html Simon. Simon North north@synopsys.com sintac@xs4all.nl PGP Fingerprint 97FA 6A6C 1136 A66A 431D 8454 9C16 F677 A4C8 9CE2 co-author "Presenting XML", "HTML4 Unleashed, PRE", "Dynamic Web Publishing Unleashed", author "Sams Teach Yourself XML in 21 Days". So much stupidity ... so few comets ... Too many clowns ... not enough circuses. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon May 31 12:42:14 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Looking for a EDIFACT from/to XML converter !! In-Reply-To: <23B6DB75C598D111872B00C04F9BF0018267D7@ntexc1mat.Materna.DE> References: <23B6DB75C598D111872B00C04F9BF0018267D7@ntexc1mat.Materna.DE> Message-ID: <wk90a5a589.fsf@ifi.uio.no> * Stefan Zimmermann | | I'm looking for a EDIFACT from/to XML converter !! Michael Koehne has one in Perl, but I'm not sure if it matches your list of requested features: <URL: http://www.isb.net/~kraehe/pub/> --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From cippe at usa.net Mon May 31 13:48:50 1999 From: cippe at usa.net (Orlando Castro) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: xml parser for c/c++ Message-ID: <19990531115028.24782.qmail@www0q.netaddress.usa.net> Hi everybody. I'm new here, and i looking for a xml parser for c/c++, well documented if posible. I would like it to validate the xml documents against an external dtd. Thanks very much. :) ____________________________________________________________________ Get free e-mail and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From terje at in-progress.com Mon May 31 13:58:17 1999 From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Tools generating DTD into plain english (HTML or ps...) Message-ID: <b3782a0201021004d2d5@[198.5.212.95]> At 3:04 AM 5/31/99, Sebastien Sahuc wrote: > >As I have couples of Objects described in a DTD, I would like them to >be written in a 'plain understandable english' for instance HTML >document. So my question is : Is there a way to generated such a HTML >document from a DTD describing a business model ? Our Emile XML Editor spells out the Content Model of elements in plain English. The explanation is displayed in the dialog used to inspect an element. We would be happy to adapt this functionality to write the explanation to a file, eventually with appropriate markup to allow further processing and display. The Emile XML editor for Mac is at <http://www.in-progress.com/emile/>. The free Lite edition of Emile also explains custom content models in plain english. -- Terje Norderhaug <terje@in-progress.com> President & Chief Technologist Media Design in*Progress San Diego, California Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de Mon May 31 15:07:35 1999 From: obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de (Oliver Becker) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Status of XML-Data Message-ID: <199905311309.PAA19546@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Hi, could anyone tell me the current status of the XML-Data working draft? http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ The usage of namespaces is out of date, furthermore I encountered some bugs/typos, but there's no link to an errata page. Will the work on XML-Data be continued or is it obsolete and will be replaced by other working drafts or recommendations? Does any kind of (free) software exist which checks XML documents against XML-Data DTDs? Thank you, Oliver /-------------------------------------------------------------------\ | ob|do Dipl.Inf. Oliver Becker | | --+-- E-Mail: obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de | | op|qo WWW: http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~obecker | \-------------------------------------------------------------------/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 15:13:42 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:35 2004 Subject: Overloaded URIs must GO! In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELIDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> References: <14159.14148.356604.263593@localhost.localdomain> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELIDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <14162.35366.672160.739256@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > Just imagine a second what would be your reaction if I would come > to you and says that I cannot create a XML document because there > is no official DTD for the document. A second, just imagine that. It's not the same. Imagine, instead, that you are on a LAN with static IP addresses and haven't had one assigned to your box. You call the sysadmin, and she says "don't worry, just make one up -- if TCP/IP suddenly stops working, you can increment the address and try again until everything's OK." > If you want a name space just register it to IANA (in case you want > to make it official). And you don't need to put a "x-". If you > choose hname for your "NID" and if its not already registered than > that's it you have this NID for all your URNs. It certainly sounds easy enough -- as I mentioned, once there are well-defined NIDs available, they will be useful for XML namespaces. Where is the list of NIDs registered with IANA so far? Thanks, and all the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 15:21:34 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <007301beaa4a$3e31b760$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELJDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> <007301beaa4a$3e31b760$0300000a@cygnus.uwa.edu.au> Message-ID: <14162.35919.40075.623064@localhost.localdomain> James Tauber writes: > But is there a retrievable document at the end of that URL? If not, > why use an http scheme? Internet Common Law 101. As I've mentioned in earlier postings, in practice people acquire rights to virtual property on the Internet based on the following criteria: 1. Domain (i.e. home.sprynet.com) 2. Branch (i.e. /sprynet/dmeggins/) 3. Protocol (i.e. HTTP) 4. Time (i.e. March 1997-??) As many have pointed out, there are potential problems with #4, but it is still absolutely required to refer to the protocol somehow, since I do not have the rights for the same domain and branch with, say, Gopher or FTP. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org Mon May 31 15:26:04 1999 From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Status of XML-Data In-Reply-To: <199905311309.PAA19546@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de>; from Oliver Becker on Mon, May 31, 1999 at 03:09:30PM +0200 References: <199905311309.PAA19546@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <19990531092734.D30172@w3.org> Hi Olivier, > could anyone tell me the current status of the XML-Data working draft? > http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data/ This document is not a working draft, it's a note submitted by W3C members: ----- Status of this Document This document is a NOTE made available by the World Wide Web Consortium for discussion only. This indicates no endorsement of its content, nor that the Consortium has, is, or will be allocating any resources to the issues addressed by the NOTE. A list of current NOTEs can be found at: http://www.w3.org/TR/. This document is a submission to the W3C. Please see Acknowledged W3C Submissions regarding its disposition. ---- > The usage of namespaces is out of date, furthermore I encountered > some bugs/typos, but there's no link to an errata page. > Will the work on XML-Data be continued or is it obsolete and will > be replaced by other working drafts or recommendations? So this is not a Working Draft produced by a Working Group, its status cannot be changed. However this can be used as an input for the corresponding Working Group in that area. Daniel -- [Yes, I have moved back to France !] Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes | Today's Bookmarks : Tel : +33 476 615 257 | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux, WWW, rpmfind, Fax : +33 476 615 207 | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | rpm2html, XML, http://www.w3.org/People/W3Cpeople.html#Veillard | badminton, and Kaffe. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon May 31 15:55:15 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> James Tauber wrote: <snip/> > They just didn't seem to have a problem with the notion that > a single URL > scheme would be used for both retrieving machine readable > information and > for an irretrievable unique name. > > I used the example of the XSLT namespace URI: > > http://www.w3.org/XSL/Transform/1.0 > > The URI above currently gives a 404. It is an irretrievable > unique name. Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. Suppose we change that URI to something more like: http://mycompanyname.com/XSL/Transform/1.0 (Just because most companies' web space may not be as tightly administered as the W3C's...) What happens when my web administrator decides to put a default web page there, which happens to be a page about his cat Mittens? Apart from the facetiousness of this example, we have the potential of the same URI pointing to two completely different resources; I thought this was not supposed to happen with URIs. <snip/> > *However*, I asked TimBL why on earth use an http URI for > this. He and Rohit > both chimed that, some time down the track, it will the URL > for a document > describing the namespace. > > I told them that my problem with that is that is then you > have the *same* > URI being used for both the namespace itself and a document > describing the > namespace. I agree. > Both TimBL and Rohit (who invoked Roy Fielding's PhD thesis) said they > didn't see that there was any distinction that warranted > different URIs. I disagree. > Maybe I've just missed something. When TimBL, Rohit Khare and (by proxy) > Roy Fielding disagree with you on a URI matter, it is worth being nervous. > > JamesT I agree with <em>this</em> too. I'm in way over my head here... ;-) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 16:11:58 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <14162.38771.749269.156280@localhost.localdomain> Hunter, David writes: > > Maybe I've just missed something. When TimBL, Rohit Khare and (by > > proxy) Roy Fielding disagree with you on a URI matter, it is > > worth being nervous. > > I agree with <em>this</em> too. I'm in way over my head here... ;-) The phone number for my business is 1-613-722-4697. Let's say (for the sake of argument) that my credit card number is 161 3722 4697, and that my Social Insurance number is 1613 7224 697 (it wouldn't be, because Canadian SIN's are only nine digits long, but just pretend). Now, is there any problem with the fact that my business phone number, my credit card number, and my SIN are digit-for-digit the same? In principle, the same thing applies to using URLs as unique identifiers -- I (should) always know whether I'm dealing with a link or a namespace, so there should be no room for confusion: links point to resources that can be retrieved, and namespace URIs do not. Last year, while Namespaces were being designed, some people argued (quite intelligently, as it turns out) that the REC should explicitly state that there is nothing to be retrieved at the other end of a Namespace URI; unfortunately, RDF does confuse the Namespace URI (which cannot be retrieved) with the schema (which can be), so the waters get unnecessarily muddy. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon May 31 16:44:34 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE98@cc20exch2.mobility.com> David Megginson writes: > The phone number for my business is 1-613-722-4697. Let's say (for > the sake of argument) that my credit card number is 161 3722 4697, and > that my Social Insurance number is 1613 7224 697 (it wouldn't be, > because Canadian SIN's are only nine digits long, but just pretend). > > Now, is there any problem with the fact that my business phone number, > my credit card number, and my SIN are digit-for-digit the same? > > In principle, the same thing applies to using URLs as unique > identifiers -- I (should) always know whether I'm dealing with a link > or a namespace, so there should be no room for confusion: links point > to resources that can be retrieved, and namespace URIs do not. > > Last year, while Namespaces were being designed, some people argued > (quite intelligently, as it turns out) that the REC should explicitly > state that there is nothing to be retrieved at the other end of a > Namespace URI; unfortunately, RDF does confuse the Namespace URI > (which cannot be retrieved) with the schema (which can be), so the > waters get unnecessarily muddy. Okay, this all makes sense; if we're treating our URL as a URL, then we know that there is only one document at that location, and if we're treating our URL as a URI, then we know that our namespace is unique. BUT, even given this, this still seems like a hack to me. If HTTP is the "hypertext transfer protocol", then shouldn't it be used to transfer hypertext? The example above isn't <em>quite</em> the same, because there is no protocol attached to the beginning of those numbers. (e.g., VISA://16137224697) It's kind of like saying that because your VISA number is unique we could use it to identify you (assuming that you are a "resource"; yes, we <em>could</em> start calling you VISA://16137224697, but that's not really what the VISA:// protocol is for. OTOH, using SIN://16137224697 makes a bit more sense, because a Social Insurance Number is designed specifically to uniquely identify someone. Just like HTTP is designed to retrieve documents, and some other protocol could be used for namespaces. (I am, perhaps, completely misusing the word "protocol", but I hope my meaning is getting through... :-) David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 16:56:34 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE98@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE98@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <14162.41334.159017.411121@localhost.localdomain> Hunter, David writes: > BUT, even given this, this still seems like a hack to me. If HTTP > is the "hypertext transfer protocol", then shouldn't it be used to > transfer hypertext? I've made several postings on this point. See http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1999/ for details. The summary is that people have the rights to virtual Internet space based on host/domain, branch/path, protocol, and time; you cannot leave the protocol part out (I don't have FTP rights on Sprynet, for example). All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon May 31 17:22:50 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> David Megginson writes: > I've made several postings on this point. See > > http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1999/ > > for details. The summary is that people have the rights to virtual > Internet space based on host/domain, branch/path, protocol, and time; > you cannot leave the protocol part out (I don't have FTP rights on > Sprynet, for example). </snip> I agree. But from reading the previous postings, the point seems to be "we need to use a protocol, and HTTP is the only one we've got at the moment, so we should use it for our URIs". This is the part that sounds like a hack to me. If we need a protocol for our namespace URIs, then we should have some kind of namespace protocol. Of course, I realize that this is a bit pie-in-the-sky, the-way-things-should-work kind of thinking; even if we do get a namespace protocol, it isn't going to happen this afternoon, and people still need to develop for the time being. (One of your previous posts said something to the effect of "we'll see how things are closer to the end of summer"; I'll echo that sentiment as well.) I'm just worried that some day there WILL be a namespace protocol, but nobody will use it because they're already using HTTP, just because it works... But, I'll let the issue rest, for a while. :-) <aside>Mostly because I'm STILL in over my head.</aside> David Hunter david.hunter@mediaserv.com MediaServ Information Architects http://www.MediaServ.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 17:30:28 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <14162.43529.767446.988311@localhost.localdomain> Hunter, David writes: > I agree. But from reading the previous postings, the point seems > to be "we need to use a protocol, and HTTP is the only one we've > got at the moment, so we should use it for our URIs". Actually, that's not it. The point is that ordinary people (not just domain-name owners, or book publishers, etc.) need to be able to construct Namespace URIs, and those URIs have to be guaranteed unique, at least at the moment that they construct them. A very convenient (if inadequately persistent) way to accomplish that is to build Namespace URIs based on the URLs for Internet space to which people already have access rights. Access rights are based on protocol as well as domain and branch, so there has to be some link to the protocol somewhere. URLs don't have to use the HTTP protocol; I suppose that you could even build a namespace on a mailto:, though I'm not sure what it would look like. Some day (perhaps very soon) URNs will also become usable as Namespace URIs, but they're not there yet, unless you expect ordinary people to start registering NIDs with IANA. URNs are still missing that last tiny step for usability. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From jborden at mediaone.net Mon May 31 17:33:39 1999 From: jborden at mediaone.net (Jonathan Borden) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Paul Hunter wrote: > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. ... Aside from the evident fact that such practice goes against several individial's internal sense of what is 'right' or 'wrong', this is the only criticism I see of this practice. No one has offered a hard or practical example of an actual problem this creates, aside from offending of the sensibilities. > Suppose we > change that URI to something more like: > http://mycompanyname.com/XSL/Transform/1.0 > (Just because most companies' web space may not be as tightly administered > as the W3C's...) What happens when my web administrator decides to put a > default web page there, which happens to be a page about his cat Mittens? > Apart from the facetiousness of this example, we have the potential of the > same URI pointing to two completely different resources; I > thought this was > not supposed to happen with URIs. Okay, suppose this happens... when the URI is being used as a namespace, no attempt is made to resolve the URL, and resolution of the URL has no meaning in terms of namespaces, so ... no problem. A namespace URI does not point to a resource. The URI is used only as a unique identifier. Jonathan Borden http://jabr.ne.mediaone.net xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From larsga at ifi.uio.no Mon May 31 18:12:18 1999 From: larsga at ifi.uio.no (Lars Marius Garshol) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: xml parser for c/c++ In-Reply-To: <19990531115028.24782.qmail@www0q.netaddress.usa.net> References: <19990531115028.24782.qmail@www0q.netaddress.usa.net> Message-ID: <wkzp2l8bdp.fsf@ifi.uio.no> * Orlando Castro | | I'm new here, and i looking for a xml parser for c/c++, well | documented if posible. I would like it to validate the xml documents | against an external dtd. This should be easy to find if you look at <URL: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/linker/XMLtools.html> Or, if you'd like something a bit more filtered: <URL: http://birk105.studby.uio.no/cgi-bin/toolsearch.py?name=&plat=C&cat=XML+parsers&qua=Any> <URL: http://birk105.studby.uio.no/cgi-bin/toolsearch.py?name=&plat=C%2B%2B&cat=XML+parsers&qua=Any> --Lars M. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 18:37:08 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGENGDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Jonathan, Jonathan said: Aside from the evident fact that such practice goes against several individial's internal sense of what is 'right' or 'wrong', this is the only criticism I see of this practice. No one has offered a hard or practical example of an actual problem this creates, aside from offending of the sensibilities. Didier says: Yes an other argument: location dependency. Let's say that in a near future we want to use the URI to point to a "place" where the name space is documented. Then a) URL: PRO:Already here, people are accustomed to it. Especially the URL based on HTTP protocol. CON: It is location dependent. If the document is moved to an other "place" we have to change the URL. All documents in the field pointing to this URL are out of synch. we, reduced the document longevity. b) URN: PRO: it is location dependant. We can move the document to a new "place" and the document is still in synch. We gained document longevity. CON: necessitate a name resolver. The interpreter needs to include the name resolution mechanism. Not well known from the Web community. Argument I heard about not using URN. It is not there yet. Then what would we say if we where hearing the argument against XML as "not there yet" :-)) The point is: if we need a URI, then let's use a URN then when we'll need the URN to be resolved for a location, implementers could include a name resolver in their code. What we gain, documentation could be "moved" and all documents in the field having a reference to the URN are still valid. But _cannot_ be the case for a URL. If however we only need a URI that _will_ never be resolved into a location then we can use anything that lower the probability of name collision. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 18:37:07 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:36 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14162.43529.767446.988311@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIENGDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: Some day (perhaps very soon) URNs will also become usable as Namespace URIs, but they're not there yet, unless you expect ordinary people to start registering NIDs with IANA. URNs are still missing that last tiny step for usability. Didier says: Don't forget David that all domain names have to be _registered_ also. We are talking here of a name space mechanism. The hname name space could be organized such that every body wanting to publish their documentation could do it by registering not to IANA but to an other group. There is only one registration to IANA: the hname name space. After that, we need to register to an organization having a DNS server able to handle the URN name resolution record. The ideal situation is to have to organization as backup. However, if an ordinary person (as you say) wants to just include a name space reference (a no public documentation), or do not care about the fact that the URL is location dependent, could use URLs. Anyway both URN and URL are URI. If we state that a namespace reference could be a URI then we can use either a URL or a URN. It all depend on the level of sophistication, document longevity, location independence we want to reach. Also, what would be your reaction if people where to say that XML should not be employed because its not there yet :-) PS: about the question Where can we find IANA. This is a good question. I'll check and come with something. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From carl at chage.com Mon May 31 19:02:42 1999 From: carl at chage.com (Carl Hage) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE97@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <199905311704.MAA06138@rgate2.ricochet.net> From: "Jonathan Borden" <jborden@mediaone.net> > Paul Hunter wrote: > > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. ... ... > No one has offered a hard or > practical example of an actual problem this creates, aside from offending > of the sensibilities. Turn it around-- it would be intrinsically <em>good</em> to require all namespaces to reference a retrievable document. Any existing namespace registry can be mapped into a backwards compatible HTTP URL, returning something, e.g. http://isbn.org/isbn/1-57595- 180-0B could return the USMARC data (card catalog) formatted in HTML with a link to an XML representation. It serves as a URI as well as a source of documentation. Software that maps hytime namespaces can just as easily map http://hytime.org/ namespaces, and software that knows nothing of hytime namespaces could follow a URL to find needed info. (Maybe manually, but better than nothing.) I think the URI identifying namespaces and DTDs should be URLs not URNs. An XML document without retrievable documentation on the DTD should be considered non-compliant. The biggest problem isn't syntax-- it's the semantics. XML validators based on DTDs will only identify an insignificant percentage of errors-- hardly worth it if you ask me unless debugging software. (Though considering how Microsoft and Netscape callously violate HTML standards, I may need to recant.) Likewise, a DTD->HTML converter doesn't produce human readable documentation, because the most important part (semantics) is missing. If you ask me, XML will really work only when XML-Schema (or whatever) is enhanced to include human-readable detailed documentation (with all code-values defined in an XML thesaurus), and the URIs in XML/DTD headers lead to a retreivable version of this. Putting the semantics and code-value definitions in separate paper documents (the norm today) must be abandoned. Instead everything needed should be accessable at the other end of the namespace URL. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Carl Hage C. Hage Associates <mailto:carl@chage.com> Voice/Fax: 1-408-244-8410 1180 Reed Ave #51 <http://www.chage.com/chage/> Sunnyvale, CA 94086 xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk Mon May 31 19:17:28 1999 From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: xml parser for c/c++ References: <19990531115028.24782.qmail@www0q.netaddress.usa.net> <wkzp2l8bdp.fsf@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <005a01beab89$21db1df0$4a5eedc1@arp01> For a more complete list go to www.xmlsoftware.com It also covers commercial parsers. Regards, Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: Lars Marius Garshol <larsga@ifi.uio.no> To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk> Sent: Monday, May 31, 1999 5:14 PM Subject: Re: xml parser for c/c++ > > * Orlando Castro > | > | I'm new here, and i looking for a xml parser for c/c++, well > | documented if posible. I would like it to validate the xml documents > | against an external dtd. > > This should be easy to find if you look at > > <URL: http://www.stud.ifi.uio.no/~larsga/linker/XMLtools.html> > > > Or, if you'd like something a bit more filtered: > > <URL: http://birk105.studby.uio.no/cgi-bin/toolsearch.py?name=&plat=C&cat=XML+pars ers&qua=Any> > > <URL: http://birk105.studby.uio.no/cgi-bin/toolsearch.py?name=&plat=C%2B%2B&cat=XM L+parsers&qua=Any> > > --Lars M. > > > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 > To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > (un)subscribe xml-dev > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; > subscribe xml-dev-digest > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 31 19:19:13 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990531102128.00a001b0@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 10:04 AM 5/31/99 -0800, Carl Hage wrote: >Turn it around-- it would be intrinsically <em>good</em> to require >all namespaces to reference a retrievable document. In early examples, this is what is happening - most namespace URLs that people are actually using typically point to a human-readable document explaining what the namespace is about. Seems like good practice. Hard to enforce, though. Worthwhile trying? Can we expect to see litigation over the quality of the documentation, or the fact that it's provided only in some particular human language? -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 19:19:19 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGENGDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> References: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGENGDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Message-ID: <14162.50170.379827.713858@localhost.localdomain> Didier PH Martin writes: > Argument I heard about not using URN. It is not there yet. Then > what would we say if we where hearing the argument against XML as > "not there yet" :-)) A year and a half ago, that was the case -- anything based on XML was necessarily experimental and not yet safe for widespread deployment (note today the problems with CDF, which was based on an early XML draft); since February 1998, however, when the W3C issued the XML 1.0 Recommendation, XML *has* been there. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From mda at discerning.com Mon May 31 19:34:50 1999 From: mda at discerning.com (Mark D. Anderson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <02d301beab8b$f272db90$0200a8c0@mdaxke.mediacity.com> I can see that there needs to be room in the standard to allow that a namespace URI can be any old thing -- it may or may not use a "http" scheme, and there may or may not be something retrievable there, and the thing being retrieved might be an english document, or a dtd, or a redirect to sex.com. But it would be great if there were a standard that also allowed for greater precision, so that one could distinguish the notions of: - a URN - a dtd or xml schema - an english spec - a document describing rights for some TBD rights protocol I've seen all of the above used for namespace URI. So it seems the situation is being excerbated by the lack of a standard linking syntax (XLink, RDF) and an associated standardized vocabulary for these associations. -mda xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 31 19:50:05 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3752CB9E.F8D16B5@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > A namespace URI does not point to a resource. The URI is used only as a > unique identifier. It does not *need to* point to a resource. But it may. The URI specification does not say that it must not point to a resource. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon May 31 19:50:26 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEA3@cc20exch2.mobility.com> David Megginson writes: > Actually, that's not it. The point is that ordinary people (not just > domain-name owners, or book publishers, etc.) need to be able to > construct Namespace URIs, and those URIs have to be guaranteed unique, > at least at the moment that they construct them. > > A very convenient (if inadequately persistent) way to accomplish that > is to build Namespace URIs based on the URLs for Internet space to > which people already have access rights. Access rights are based on > protocol as well as domain and branch, so there has to be some link to > the protocol somewhere. > > URLs don't have to use the HTTP protocol; I suppose that you could > even build a namespace on a mailto:, though I'm not sure what > it would > look like. > > Some day (perhaps very soon) URNs will also become usable as Namespace > URIs, but they're not there yet, unless you expect ordinary people to > start registering NIDs with IANA. URNs are still missing that last > tiny step for usability. <snip/> Okay, I think you've brought me over. :-) If I keep in mind what namespaces are supposed to be FOR, which is (in a really small nutshell) to distinguish my XML elements from yours, then we can use URLs, URNs, or whatever other URIs you want to use. <aside>Are there any others?</aside> Perhaps if I'm coming up with some kind of XML format for my little dinky web site, I can use a URL to the portion of my web server that I own. (Or use the mailto: protocol, which I kind of like.) OTOH, if a more large-scale effort is underway to come up with some kind of conglomeration site with XML from all kinds of sources, then maybe they can register to get a more permanent URN. Even that nagging phrase "inadequately persistent" isn't too bad, because if I'm just Joe Average User, then by the time my namespace doesn't belong to me anymore, it probably won't matter because I won't be using that namespace anymore. xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 31 19:51:03 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> Message-ID: <3752CB4F.1472FD2D@prescod.net> Jonathan Borden wrote: > > Paul Hunter wrote: > > > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. ... > > Aside from the evident fact that such practice goes against several > individial's internal sense of what is 'right' or 'wrong', this is the only > criticism I see of this practice. No one has offered a hard or practical > example of an actual problem this creates, aside from offending of the > sensibilities. Well, the first problem is that it is wrong: it is in violation of IETF specifications about the semantics of http: URLs. Personally, I think that standards incompliance should be argument enough. The second problem is that some people put retrievable documents at the other end of the namespace URI and other people do not. Some people think that it is a good idea and others think it is the worst possible idea. There is no way to tell from the URI whether you are supposed to be able to retrieve something or not. If you try it and get a 404, you don't know if the document is temporarily missing or if it never existed at all. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 31 20:05:08 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990531110744.00a04410@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 12:47 PM 5/31/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >> > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. ... >Well, the first problem is that it is wrong: it is in violation of IETF >specifications about the semantics of http: URLs. Personally, I think that >standards incompliance should be argument enough. No. The IETF docs explain how a URI may be used to reference a resource on the Web. They further say that URIs are in fact designed to facilitate this process. There is nothing in there I've seen stating that they *must* be so used, nor that they may not be used for other purposes. Or am I missing something? -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From dhunter at Mobility.com Mon May 31 20:07:35 1999 From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEA4@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Tim Bray writes: > At 10:04 AM 5/31/99 -0800, Carl Hage wrote: > >Turn it around-- it would be intrinsically <em>good</em> to require > >all namespaces to reference a retrievable document. > > In early examples, this is what is happening - most namespace > URLs that > people are actually using typically point to a human-readable document > explaining what the namespace is about. Seems like good practice. > Hard to enforce, though. Worthwhile trying? Can we expect to see > litigation over the quality of the documentation, or the fact that > it's provided only in some particular human language? -Tim If there is going to be a namespace to distinguish <my:Blah/> from <your:Blah/>, then that probably means that I'm expecting other people to use my XML format to mark up their data. (If nobody is ever going to see my XML format but my own application, then I don't need a namespace.) And if my XML format is going to be shared to others, then it will probably have a DTD, or a Schema. So why not have the namespace URL link to that DTD/Schema by convention? It would only be a convention, of course, it wouldn't really be worthwhile to try and enforce that, or to force all XML formats to have a DTD or Schema, but I'm sure it would be handy, and it would eliminate the problem of deciding which language to use for your documentation. Thoughts? xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 20:32:00 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Are Namespace URLs illegal? In-Reply-To: <3752CB4F.1472FD2D@prescod.net> References: <000001beab7a$0c33be30$1b19da18@ne.mediaone.net> <3752CB4F.1472FD2D@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14162.54289.648724.110405@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Well, the first problem is that it is wrong: it is in violation of > IETF specifications about the semantics of http: URLs. Personally, > I think that standards incompliance should be argument enough. Paul is begging the question here -- it needs to be proven that the use of URLs for Namespace URIs violates any standards, so it is not fair to jump ahead as if the first point were already proven. Personally, I'd guess that since the IETF spec governs the use of URLs only for retrieving resources over the Internet, and Namespaces are a different use domain, the IETF specs are applicable only to the extent that the Namespaces REC says they are. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 20:41:49 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEA4@cc20exch2.mobility.com> References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEA4@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <14162.54908.828484.293270@localhost.localdomain> Hunter, David writes: >So why not have the namespace URL link to that DTD/Schema by >convention? It would only be a convention, of course, it wouldn't >really be worthwhile to try and enforce that, or to force all XML >formats to have a DTD or Schema, but I'm sure it would be handy, and >it would eliminate the problem of deciding which language to use for >your documentation. Member-confidentiality rules do not allow me to refer to the arguments of other members of the now-defunct XML WG, but this topic did come up (at length). My own argument was as follows: 1. there will not always be a 1:1 relationship between Namespaces and schemas (my schema, for example, might reuse the semantics but not the structure of elements from the HTML namespace); and 2. there will not always be a 1:1 relationship between documents and schemas (you may apply various sorts of schemas to the same document, say, one for structure (as in XML Schema), one for semantics (as in RDF schemas), and another for company-specific business rules. Or, to put it in graphical terms (turn on your fixed-width fonts): +--------+ +---------+ |Document|*---------------*|Namespace| +--------+ +---------+ * * | +------+ | +--------*|Schema|*--------+ +------+ All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 20:58:33 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <14162.50415.509809.441785@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKENLDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: Quite true, but most typical Web users don't register domain names; instead, they are assigned branches within an existing domain (such as a Web-page or FTP directory) by an ISP. Didier says: same thing for a registered hname NID. People would have the choice to store their name space documentation in a registry or, if this is not important, use a URL instead. The former being location independent, the latter location dependant. The risk incurred with the latter is that the documentation cannot be moved otherwise the documentation reference is broken. the advantage of the former is that we can change the documentation location without breaking the documentation link. Thus, if we change ISP, the reference is still good. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 20:58:27 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:37 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <199905311704.MAA06138@rgate2.ricochet.net> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIENLDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Carl, Carl said: I think the URI identifying namespaces and DTDs should be URLs not URNs. An XML document without retrievable documentation on the DTD should be considered non-compliant. The biggest problem isn't syntax-- it's the semantics. XML validators based on DTDs will only identify an insignificant percentage of errors-- hardly worth it if you ask me unless debugging software. (Though considering how Microsoft and Netscape callously violate HTML standards, I may need to recant.) Didier says: Why should URN usage for name space identification shouldn't be used? Do you have a good argument against it? If so, let's share it. I have an argument against URLs: location dependency. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 21:08:48 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Just require URLs In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AEA4@cc20exch2.mobility.com> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAENMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi David, David said: If there is going to be a namespace to distinguish <my:Blah/> from <your:Blah/>, then that probably means that I'm expecting other people to use my XML format to mark up their data. (If nobody is ever going to see my XML format but my own application, then I don't need a namespace.) And if my XML format is going to be shared to others, then it will probably have a DTD, or a Schema. So why not have the namespace URL link to that DTD/Schema by convention? It would only be a convention, of course, it wouldn't really be worthwhile to try and enforce that, or to force all XML formats to have a DTD or Schema, but I'm sure it would be handy, and it would eliminate the problem of deciding which language to use for your documentation. Didier says: I agree, At least, if the link points to something it should be at the minimum an expected standard document format. regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From martind at netfolder.com Mon May 31 21:22:00 1999 From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19990531110744.00a04410@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGENMDGAA.martind@netfolder.com> Hi Tim, Tim said: No. The IETF docs explain how a URI may be used to reference a resource on the Web. They further say that URIs are in fact designed to facilitate this process. There is nothing in there I've seen stating that they *must* be so used, nor that they may not be used for other purposes. Or am I missing something? -Tim Didier says: Here we are. I remember a good discussion (within IETF groups) we got about URIs and a lack of a RFC explaining the role of each. We didn't reached consensus and the result today... we are right in the problem :-)) I remember that the main point is the name. Read attentively the following name: U_niversal R_esource L_ocator The name itself self describe in the sense that it is used to express a location, a "place". At contrario, a U_niversal R_esource N_ame Is a "name". The former explicitely contains the meaning of a location. The latter the explicitely the meaning of a "name" and not of a location. For instance, I may use the URN convention to express the inventory record identifiers or as identifier for some collection organized in a typical name space. There is no intrinsic problem, per se, with calling a car a spoon, it is simply inconvenient when we want to ask to fill our "spoon" with gas :-))). Just imagine yourself having to answer to a newby that the Universal Resource Locator do not indicate a location. But, if we want to express a location with a URL, its made for this. So, if the name space reference uses a URL and that no document is at the other end, it is like a 404 error (in the case of the HTTP protocol). Or like having a rendez-vous but nobody came to it :-) regards Didier PH Martin mailto:martind@netfolder.com http://www.netfolder.com xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 31 21:27:14 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <3.0.32.19990531110744.00a04410@pop.intergate.bc.ca> Message-ID: <3752DD68.A839F1FD@prescod.net> Tim Bray wrote: > > At 12:47 PM 5/31/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: > >> > Using HTTP for URIs sounds intrinsically <em>bad</em> to me. ... > > >Well, the first problem is that it is wrong: it is in violation of IETF > >specifications about the semantics of http: URLs. Personally, I think that > >standards incompliance should be argument enough. > > No. The IETF docs explain how a URI may be used to reference a resource > on the Web. They further say that URIs are in fact designed to facilitate > this process. There is nothing in there I've seen stating that they *must* > be so used, nor that they may not be used for other purposes. Or am > I missing something? -Tim I'm talking specifically about the definition of HTTP URLs. "The HTTP URL scheme is used to designate Internet resources accessible using HTTP (HyperText Transfer Protocol)." (I guess from a formal logic perspective it should end with "and no others") If you use them to designate non-Internet resources NOT accessible by HTTP then I consider that an obvious abuse, even if the HTTP spec. isn't sufficiently anal to disallow the practice from a formal logic perspective. Otherwise I could put http:// URLs on my website and say: "Oh, you were supposed to interpret those as gopher URLs. The URL spec. doesn't disallow that you know!" If we take advantage of this formal logic loophole then the elephants can come barging through. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 31 21:37:29 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D0106AE9A@cc20exch2.mobility.com> <14162.43529.767446.988311@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <3752E2B5.5D437E5D@prescod.net> David Megginson wrote: > > A very convenient (if inadequately persistent) way to accomplish that > is to build Namespace URIs based on the URLs for Internet space to > which people already have access rights. Access rights are based on > protocol as well as domain and branch, so there has to be some link to > the protocol somewhere. I submit that defining "access rights" in a protocol-independent way is going to be extremely difficult. Therefore the proposal you forced me to create will use email addresses which is slightly more tractable. Another benefit will be shorter, simpler namespace URIs. The idea that people will assign URIs hierarchically based on their HTTP namespace has not take hold in practice although my specification will support that for the rare occasions where it is useful. But consider, if Andrew Layman makes a URN like this: http://www.microsoft.com/msdn/xml/specs/schemas/ Consider how many levels of control are involved and how many opportunities for screwing up persistence there are. The flatter the namespace is, the better the chances of maintaining persistence. Also consider ubiquity: some (arguably few) people have email addresses but no web site. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From paul at prescod.net Mon May 31 21:39:14 1999 From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Reluctant-ly yrs, Paul Message-ID: <3752E396.86B0C0CF@prescod.net> Rough draft. Comments appreciated. Note that getting a number-identified URN namespace is easier and faster than getting a name-identified one so that is the best first step. Someone more ambitious (thanks for volunteering, David) could start a standards-track process towards getting a name-identified one. --- This is an application for a URN namespace based on time-qualified email addresses for abstract objects. It is prompted by the rampant abuse of URLs as names for XML namespaces and as the names for other abstract, unretrievable objects. Namespace ID: IANA Assigned Registration Information: Registration version number: 1 Registration date: 1999-0?-?? Declared registrant of the namespace: Paul Prescod paul@prescod.net ISOGEN International Corp. http://www.isogen.com Declaration of structure: The identifier structure is as follows: urn:urn-<assigned number>:<addr-spec>:<date> [ : <qualifier> ] The addr-spec syntax is defined in RFC822. The date production is defined by ISO 8601 as the "recommended primary notation" and must specify a year, month and day. A date/addr-spec pair is called a time-qualified mailbox address (TQM address). The person, organization or group of people that owns the addressed conceptual mailbox (see RFC822) on that date are known as the address owners. Alternately, the person, organization, or group that owns or owned the domain on the date could assign control of TQM address without actually setting up a mailbox. If ownership of the email address or entire domain is transferred during a particular day then no affected TQM address is legal The structure of the optional qualifier portion is defined by each address owner within the constraints defined by RFC 2141. They might sub-delegate responsibility by defining some substructure in the qualifier. Address owners are recommended that they are ultimately responsible for the persistence of their entire namespace. They might use additional time qualifiers to help ensure this. Relevant ancillary documentation: ISO 8601 defines the date syntax used. IETF RFC822 defines the mailbox syntax used. Identifier uniqueness considerations: The basic functioning of Internet email depends upon email addresses being globally unique at any particular time. Identifier persistence considerations: Persistence of the URNs in this namespace is independent of the mutability of the underlying documents. A URN once assigned will never be reassigned to a different resource; the assignment is persistent and immutable. Responsibility for ensuring name immutability is delegated to the address owners. Process of identifier assignment: The process of email address assignment varies from domain to domain but RFC822 guarantees that every address maps to a single conceptual mailbox. The person, organization or group responsible for that group is responsible for the namespace rooted at that mailbox. Process of identifier resolution: At this time there is no defined resolution mechanism. For the intended set of resources this is not a problem because they are abstract and not retrievable. It might be possible to use the email address to ask for information about the abstract object but the recipient is not guaranteed to be responsive. Rules for Lexical Equivalence: The case sensitivity of dates and addr-specs are defined in their respective specifications. The qualifiers are defined to be be case sensitive but a TQM address owner might assign all of the qualifier case variations of a URN to the same resource. They could mandate this definition namespace-wide in which case that namespace would be effectively case insensitive. Conformance with URN Syntax: There are no additional characters reserved. Validation mechanism: None. Scope: Global. -- Paul Prescod - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for only himself http://itrc.uwaterloo.ca/~papresco Alabama's constitution is 100 years old, 300 pages long and has more than 600 amendments. Highlights include "Amendment 393: Amendment of Amendment No. 351", "Validation of Laws Regulating Court Costs in Randolph County", "Miscegenation laws", "Bingo Games in Russell County", "Suppression of dueling". - http://www.legislature.state.al.us/ALISHome.html xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From tbray at textuality.com Mon May 31 21:43:33 1999 From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) Message-ID: <3.0.32.19990531124552.01284c40@pop.intergate.bc.ca> At 02:05 PM 5/31/99 -0500, Paul Prescod wrote: >I'm talking specifically about the definition of HTTP URLs. > >"The HTTP URL scheme is used to designate Internet resources accessible >using HTTP (HyperText Transfer Protocol)." > >(I guess from a formal logic perspective it should end with "and no >others") No, that's not a "formal logic" change, that's a huge basic semantic change. If the IETF had wanted to forbid people using these for other purposes, they should say so. Note that one of the co-editors of the URI RFC is one T. Berners-Lee, who among other things signed off on the namespace spec. >If you use them to designate non-Internet resources NOT accessible by HTTP >then I consider that an obvious abuse, even if the HTTP spec. isn't >sufficiently anal to disallow the practice from a formal logic >perspective. Uh, namespace URIs do not designate resources. The namespace spec is crystal-clear on this. They serve as names, that's all. >Otherwise I could put http:// URLs on my website and say: "Oh, you were >supposed to interpret those as gopher URLs. The URL spec. doesn't disallow >that you know!" That analogy is bogus - the semantic of a URL, when used in a web hyperlink, is well-defined. We are not specifying that the namespace URI be used as anything but a string, for comparison purposes. There is no convincing evidence that this violates the letter or spirit of any standard anywhere. -Tim xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 23:14:20 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Paul has volunteered (was Re: Overloaded URIs must GO!) In-Reply-To: <3752DD68.A839F1FD@prescod.net> References: <3.0.32.19990531110744.00a04410@pop.intergate.bc.ca> <3752DD68.A839F1FD@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14162.64310.589514.658642@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Otherwise I could put http:// URLs on my website and say: "Oh, you > were supposed to interpret those as gopher URLs. The URL > spec. doesn't disallow that you know!" Yes, but the specs define the use of http and gopher URLs within the domain of accessing resources over a network connection. > If we take advantage of this formal logic loophole then the > elephants can come barging through. In the case of namespace URIs, we're looking at a different use domain (naming XML elements and attributes), not just a logical loophole. All the best, David -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) From david at megginson.com Mon May 31 23:20:29 1999 From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson) Date: Mon Jun 7 17:12:38 2004 Subject: Congrats and thanks to Paul (was: Reluctant-ly yrs, Paul) In-Reply-To: <3752E396.86B0C0CF@prescod.net> References: <3752E396.86B0C0CF@prescod.net> Message-ID: <14162.64631.42018.526883@localhost.localdomain> Paul Prescod writes: > Rough draft. Comments appreciated. Note that getting a > number-identified URN namespace is easier and faster than getting a > name-identified one so that is the best first step. My response after a very fast skim: it looks like a wonderful first step -- the time qualification guarantees persistence, and the e-mail address part guarantees uniqueness. This is certainly user-friendly and democratic (my parents, for example, can create their own namespaces with it). Personally, I can live with the number. If anyone is annoyed by it, Paul and I can volunteer them to work on getting a name. On behalf of everyone, I'd like to congratulate and thank Paul for going ahead with this. In two weeks (I hope), we should actually be able to use URNs for XML Namespaces, something we haven't in practice been able to do up to now. All the best, David p.s. When I have time to read at more leasure, I can develop some more useful comments. -- David Megginson david@megginson.com http://www.megginson.com/ xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1 To (un)subscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; (un)subscribe xml-dev To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; subscribe xml-dev-digest List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)