From stele at fxtech.com  Sat Jan  1 17:49:08 2000
From: stele at fxtech.com (Paul Miller)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XMLIO 0.5 with C and C++ implementation
Message-ID: <386E3E58.7978F758@fxtech.com>

XMLIO is my lightweight library for generating and processing SML/XML
streams in C or C++ applications where application data structures or
configuration settings are stored as XML syntax.

The latest version is completely rewritten in C, with the C++ API
layered over that (but using exceptions, references, and in the XML::
namespace). The XML input processor (XML_Input and XML::Input) is a
hybrid push/pull model where specific element handlers are specified for
each level of a nested object hierarchy. When a desired element is
encounted, a callback handler is called (like with a push model), but it
is up to the handler to pull what it needs (either data or more
subelements). If nothing is requested, the entire element is skipped.
Because element processing is performed on the stack and unused elements
are thrown away immediately, there is no memory overhead during
processing, making it extremely efficient.

Intrinsic data types (including ints, floats, doubles, booleans,
strings, and list enums) corresponding to object member data can
automatically be processed and stored at the correct address in the
object. Custom processors can be easily written to handle custom element
data.

Here is an example on how to process the following XML syntax into some
sample objects:

<Circle>
    <Center>(100,100)</Center>
    <Radius>50</Radius>
</Circle>

typedef struct Point_
{
    int x, y;
} Point;

XML_Error Read_Point(XML_Element *elem, Point *p)
{
    XML_Char data[40];
    size_t len = sizeof(data) / sizeof(XML_Char);
    XML_Error error = XML_ElementReadData(elem, data, &len);
    data[len] = 0;
    if (sscanf(data, "(%dx%d)", &p->x, &p->y) != 2)
        return XML_Error_InvalidValue;
    return error;
}

typedef struct Circle_
{
    Point center;
    int radius;
} Circle;

XML_Error Read_Circle(XML_Element *elem, Circle *circle)
{
    const XML_Handler handlers[] = {
        XML_ELEMENT_HANDLER_MEMBER("Center", Read_Point, Circle,
center),
        XML_INT_HANDLER("Radius", Circle, radius),
        XML_HANDLER_END
    };
    return XML_ElementProcess(elem, handlers, circle);
}

Please see the README at http://www.fxtech.com/xmlio for complete
details.

--
Paul Miller - stele@fxtech.com

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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Sun Jan  2 02:17:13 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <14430.46481.974707.922192@localhost.localdomain>
		<012701bf4b44$0c68b030$4a5eedc1@arp01>
		<14430.55483.433692.943811@localhost.localdomain>
		<385FA4C9.2B054683@pacbell.net> <14442.32320.722924.870701@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386EB446.9438F25B@trantor.de>

David Megginson wrote:
>
>   public class NamespaceHandler
>   {
>     public void startElement (String namespaceURI, String localName,
>                               NSAttributeList atts)
>       throws Whatever;

In order to support the "old" AttributeList.getValue (String name),
AttributeList needs to be aware of the element's namespace. If
getElementNamespace () is added to AttributeList, we are not that far
from also adding getElementPrefix () and getElementLocalName () to
AttributeList. With these methods in AttributeList (and some additional
attr-namespace supp methods, the DocumentHandler interface could be

   public void startElement (String prefixedName, AttributeList attrs); 

   (etc.)

...and SAX2 would have full namespace support and also be nearly fully
compatible to SAX1 (Ok, not for implementors of AttributeList, but who
does that except from parser writers?)

Ok, in fact, AttributeList would become a kind of "startElementEvent". I
am not sure if I realy like this suggestion myself, because
AttributeList would be more than the name suggests. But it provides
compability and full namespace support at once without registering two
different handlers...

Best regards,

Stefan


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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Sun Jan  2 03:08:56 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question
Message-ID: <386EC1AB.F257F96E@algx.net>

All-

	I'm trying to get my head around the latest revision (12-17-99) of the
XML Schema spec, as it changes quite a bit from previous versions.  If
someone could let me know if I'm on track, or what I'm missing, I'd
appreciate it.

My understanding is for XML like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>

<myNamespace:Doc xmlns="Schema/mySchema.xsd" 
                 xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
>

  <myNamespace:element1>
    <myNamespace:element2 />
  </myNamespace:element1>

  <myNamespace:element3>Some content</myNamespace:element3>

</myNamespace:Doc>

the myNamespace namespace is of course associated with
http://someUrl.com.  And the schema for the document that would be used
for validation would be Schema/mySchema.xsd, as defined in the default
namespace.  Is that correct?  I know that was the previous version...

And in my schema (here's where everything changed):

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE schema
    PUBLIC 
      "-//W3C//DTD XML Schema Version 1.0//EN"
    SYSTEM 
      "http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xmlschema-1-19991217/structures.dtd"
>

<schema targetNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
        xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
        xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
>

  <element name="element1" type="myNamespace:element1Type" />

  <type name="element1Type">
    <element name="element2">
      <type content="empty" />
    </element>
  </type>

  <element name="element3" type="string" />

</schema>

That would be right, as I can tell.  My only unsurety is whether it is
correct to omit the namespace before each element's name (in a DTD, of
course, this has to be myNamespace:element1 and myNamespace:element2). 
As far as I can tell, the element is defined, and the namespace listed
in targetNamespace is then applied to all elements named.  That would be
why the type element1Type must be referred to as
myNamespace:element1Type in the definition of the element1 element,
correct?  The namespace is applied to it.  So can someone let me know if
I am reading this right, or if I'm off in left field somewhere ;-)

Thanks,
Brett

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From dessert at mindspring.com  Sun Jan  2 06:18:07 2000
From: dessert at mindspring.com (FormatData)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: ANN: DESSERT - A DTD for Recipes
Message-ID: <000001bf54e9$111894c0$bb49f7a5@ms447998>

FormatData (http://www.formatdata.com) announces:

The Document Encoding and Structuring Specification for Electronic Recipe
Transfer
(DESSERT) version 0.2

DESSERT is an XML schema for the rich representation of recipe documents.
About two years ago we saw the need for a standard way for users to retrieve
recipes from the Web.  About that time, XML came into being -- it was
obvious that XML would be the basis for this format.

DESSERT has grown into a format that allows from very simple to very
detailed markup of recipes and menus (a menu is group of recipes, as for a
multi-course meal).  It is simple enough for the posting of basic recipes by
amateurs, and rich enough to satisfy the needs of traditional print
publishers.  The separation of content and style is stressed in the design
of DESSERT -- there are no appearance-specific tags, yet there are many
"hooks" to act as stylesheet language selectors.

FormatData is looking to the XML community for review and comments on the
DESSERT DTD in it's current form.  Any and all experience the community has
to bring to bear on this fledgling project would be helpful.  FormatData
plans to submit DESSERT to a body such as XML.ORG for exposure to the wider
recipe publishing community where it can be developed further.

Right now, having others check the DTD against various XML processing
environments for validation of the code would be valuable.  You can D/L the
DTD from ftp://ftp.mindspring.com/users/jsaiya

Editing software and viewers are in the works.

----------
Jim Saiya
FormatData
mailto:dessert@formatdata.com		tel:+1 (703) 582-9072
http://www.formatdata.com


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From costello at mitre.org  Sun Jan  2 12:56:29 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: null vs empty in XML Schemas
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AAF5@RED-MSG-08> <386CA878.67743310@mitre.org> <f5byaab3z40.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <386F4B76.106883C7@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

I have two questions: 
1. What is the difference between null and empty?
2. How is nullable/null used? 

My understanding of the difference between null and empty is:

- If an element is declared to be of type empty then in the XML instance
  document the content of that element is a string of length zero.

- If an element is declared with nullable="true" then in the XML
instance
  document if the element has xsi:null="true" then this element
  has undefined content.

Is this a correct understanding of the difference between empty and
null?

Below is my understanding of how nullable/null is to be used:

Here is an example XML Schema snippet declaring an element (middle) with
nullable="true":

<element name="PersonName">
      <type>
            <element name="forname" type="NMTOKEN"/>
            <element name="middle" type="NMTOKEN" nullable="true"/>
            <element name="surname" type="NMTOKEN"/>
      </type>
</element>

Here is an example XML instance document conforming to the above schema
snippet, where the middle element has been set to a null value:

<PersonName>
      <forename>John</forename>
      <middle xsi:null="true"/>
      <surname>Doe</surname>
</PersonName>

Thus, middle may contain a NMTOKEN value, or it may indicate that there
is no defined value.  Is this the correct usage of nullable/null?  My
reason for asking is because in the XML Schema spec, after nullable/null
is discussed there is an Issue section stating:

"Issue (nullRequiresEmpty): Is it a precondition for being nullable that
the element's contentType allow no content? If not, then more needs to
be said above, if so, this needs to be spelled out."

This isn't consistent with the above example.  I thought that an element
declared with nullable="true" can have a value in the instance document
when a value is available.  When no value is available then we can
indicate this in the instance document by setting xsi:null="true".  This
Issue seems to say that elements declared with nullabe="true" can never
have a value in the instance document.  Thus, the middle element can
never have a value.  Wherein lies the truth?  /Roger


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan  2 17:15:56 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2: Features and Properties
References: <14432.61502.356079.908984@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386F87CD.7753F836@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> http://xml.org/sax/properties/dom-node
>   Read-only.  Valid only during a callback (null otherwise).
>   The DOM node currently being visited if SAX is being used as a DOM
>   iterator and is visiting a DOM node.

Having this be read-only means that there's no portable way
to use this "dom iterator" facility, since there's no way to
feed initial the DOM node to it!!

A simple fix:  it's readonly inside a parse() invocation, and
is writable otherwise.

Not fixing this means that such iterators must be nonportable;
which should IMHO be an anti-goal.

- Dave

p.s. This issue was raised in the initial discussions.

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan  2 18:48:30 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <14430.46481.974707.922192@localhost.localdomain>
	 <012701bf4b44$0c68b030$4a5eedc1@arp01>
	 <14430.55483.433692.943811@localhost.localdomain>
	 <385FA4C9.2B054683@pacbell.net> <14442.32320.722924.870701@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386F9D83.326CB9@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> David Brownell writes:
> 
>  > There's been way too much email on this topic -- I should have
>  > weighed in earlier.  In all honesty I'd prefer to see all namespace
>  > support be cleanly layered on top of SAX1.  It's easy to do it that
>  > way; just add some optional code to postprocess a SAX event stream.
> 
> The argument against that is efficiency: I have found that even the
> most efficient Namespace post-processor that I can write adds about
> 25% to parsing time.  The reason, I think, is that there is a high
> cost to iterating through every attribute list and examining every
> attribute name, and copying or wrapping the attribute lists to give a
> Namespace view.

Ah -- but what was that post-processor trying to do, then?

I once did a pretty quick'n'dirty one that cost barely 10% even though
it used DOM data structures (which, for attribute lists and values, are
often grossly inefficient).  I've every reason to believe it could be
done with much lower cost.  Perhaps your 25% was doing more work than
was required.

Then there's also the approach of having the processing be integrated
with the next layer, which already needs to iterate and examine.  (And
with different goals than a parser!)  Such approaches can reduce the
cost much further -- effectively, to zero.


>  > With respect to this particular proposal, I have several comments.
>  >
>  > First, it's unclear to me what's happened to our old friend, the
>  > org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler.startElement callback:
>  >
>  >     public void startElement (String name, AttributeList attrs)
>  >     throws SAXException;
>  >
>  > If that call is gone, I anticipate migration problems to SAX2.
> 
> There have been so many proposals that I'm starting to lose track.
> The idea, I think, is that this would be replaced ...

Raising that point about compatibility.  There's not been much of
discussion abou the fairly substantial change you're proposing,
that SAX1 and SAX2 seemingly be incompatible at this basic level.
It's only come out implicitly in reaction to other points.


>  > If it's still there, then it must be the application's choice to use
>  > the new sax2.DocumentHandler interface or the original ... presumably
>  > it would use Configurable.setProperty() with some ID for the new
>  > namespace-aware sax2.DocumehtHandler to identiy its choice.
> 
> One option that no one has suggested yet is to create the
> NamespaceHandler a little differently:
> 
>   public class NamespaceHandler
>   {
>     public void startElement (String namespaceURI, String localName,
>                               NSAttributeList atts)
>       throws Whatever;
> 
>     [ deletia ]
>   }
> 
> That way, SAX parsers could still use the original DocumentHandler to
> report the XML 1.0 view (with prefixed names), and the
> NamespaceHandler to report the Namespace view of elements and
> attributes, which is the only place the view differs.
>
> 	[ deletia ]
>
> Personally, I find this approach a little brittle ...

I'd thought about that approach too.  I couldn't quite put a finger
on why it bothered me, beyond making adding extra calls which would
surely cause some application trouble someday.  


>  > Second, it's unclear how to report violations of namespace conformance.
>  
>  [ deletia ]
>
>  > That is, faced with this document
>  >
>  >      <?xml version="1.0"?>
>  >      <html:p>Hello again! :-)</html:p>
>  >      <?at-end-of-document?>
>  >
>  > Two reporting issues arise:  (a) How does one know that namespaces are
>  > to be used at all?  It's a legal XML 1.0 document, so inherently there
>  > is no error.
> 
> That's a big problem.  My SAX2 proposal is for XML+Namespaces by
> default, but it's possible to try to disable Namespace support.  That
> means that, by default, you would get an error for this document.

Apart from that "try to", I like that approach.

I've been leaning in various cases to "XML+namespaces" as a default,
but think it _must_ be possible to do more than "try" to disable it.
Namespaces are not mandatory (not part of the XML spec) and by now
it's well known they're not trouble-free.  SAX2 shouldn't preclude
systems that choose not to use namespaces.


>  > (b) If one knows that namespaces are to be used, is the undeclared
>  > "html" prefix to generate a warning, recoverable error, or fatal
>  > error through sax.ErrorHandler?  Is it reported some other way?
> 
> I think that it would be wrong to use fatalError to report Namespace
> violations, but others may disagree.

And given the W3C's original actions, I believe some of them are at W3C.
(Else they'd have made this explicit in the namespace specification, when
the issue came up in review comments.)


>  > I think that using ErrorHandler.error() is the best solution, but then
>  > that leads to the issue of how to report namespace URIs that aren't
>  > available.  (And as I recall, there were more errors to deal with than
>  > just unresolved namespace prefixes.)
> 
> Error numbers would be helpful, if someone were willing to invent some.

I'll start your collection by proposing SAXParseException get a bunch of
integer literal constants.  All undefined constants would be available for
use by revisions of SAX, but these numbers increment from zero (so folk
wanting proprietary codes have some sand to stand on for a while).

	/** Error, details unspecified (default for SAX1) */
	final static const int SAX_ERR_UNSPECIFIED = 0;

	/** Namespace prefix was undeclared.  The undeclared prefix is
	 *  in a String member of the exception (access TBD). */
	final static const int SAX_ERR_NAMESPACE_PREFIX_UNECLARED = 1;

Folk wanting to follow up -- please change the title to "SAX2 error numbers"!

I'll anticipate three general categories of followup:  about the framework
(e.g. proprietary codes), about the errors (more than two will arrive :-),
about access to error-specific detail info, about how I can't count, and
finally about things I didn't anticipate.

Once the basic framework is settled, I'll scan my enhanced AElfred (and a
layered validator) to come up with more error codes.


>  > > This would never be enabled by default, but for the relatively small
>  > > class of apps that needed to know the original prefix, the prefix
>  > > would be available simply by splitting the name argument.
>  >
>  > Clearly that class includes "DOM-using applications", which for better
>  > or worse (opinions do vary :-) isn't a small class.
>  >
>  > DOM L2 applications explicitly have the same option that I noted above:
>  > use (or non-use) of namespace information is the choice of the application,
>  > not the choice of some version of an XML infrastructure.
> 
> Is DOM2 more explicit about processing than DOM1, then?  There's
> nothing in DOM1 that says (for example) that you have to include
> comments and other stuff from the original XML document, if in fact
> there is an original XML document.

DOM L2 still doesn't say any more than DOM L1 did about the association
between a given XML document (comments, entity refs, DTD, etc) and a
given DOM tree ... and it's APIs are still incomplete for parsing into
a "full" DOM tree without using proprietary API extensions.  Sigh.

For the record, I've updated my "DOM2" implementation's javadoc to
explicitly discourage applications from using the following features:
CDATASection, DocumentType, Entity, EntityReference, Notation, and
the fact that attribute nodes can have children.  (The "DOM Functionality
to Avoid" section in the package javadoc provides more info.)

That list doesn't include comments.  Comments may be unwise, and not
all parsers can report them, but their functionality is at least
complete within the scope of DOM, and ignoring them is trivial.


> Even in DOM2, I wonder if you'd have to have the *original* prefixes
> or just some prefixes?  After all, the DOM won't always be built from
> an XML document; it might be a wrapper around a bunch of DB tables
> (for example) where there are no original prefixes available.

Prefixes are settable, for namespace-aware nodes.  As we all know,
such prefixes _should_ be used only for output.  After massaging a
document (perhaps built from multiple databases or B2B partners)
some pre-output processing stage needs to massage the tree to ensure
that all namespace prefixes get declared.

As for "original", the intent is that prefixes that start out with
some human-meaningful connotation ("xsl:template" vs "a82mfx:template")
preserve it, but that's clearly up to the application.  Apps can do
whatever output mangling they choose, including removing almost all
whitespace to make the document completely unintelligible.  Neither
of those are good things to do, or IMHO to encourage.

- Dave

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Sun Jan  2 18:32:32 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question
In-Reply-To: Brett McLaughlin's message of "Sat, 01 Jan 2000 21:10:35 -0600"
References: <386EC1AB.F257F96E@algx.net>
Message-ID: <f5bd7rk4954.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Brett McLaughlin <bmclaugh@algx.net> writes:

> My understanding is for XML like this:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> 
> <myNamespace:Doc xmlns="Schema/mySchema.xsd" 
>                  xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
> >
> 
>   <myNamespace:element1>
>     <myNamespace:element2 />
>   </myNamespace:element1>
> 
>   <myNamespace:element3>Some content</myNamespace:element3>
> 
> </myNamespace:Doc>
> 
> the myNamespace namespace is of course associated with
> http://someUrl.com.  And the schema for the document that would be used
> for validation would be Schema/mySchema.xsd, as defined in the default
> namespace.  Is that correct?  I know that was the previous version...

This is not quite the right approach.  The default namespace
declaration is doing no work, and is unlikely to yield the right
results.

The preferred approach is as follows:

 <myNamespace:Doc xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance" 
                  xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
                  xsi:schemaLocation="http://someUrl.com
                                      Schema/mySchema.xsd"
 >

The following would also work, in a context where dereferencing
namespace URIs is mandated/encouraged.

 <myNamespace:Doc
    xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com/Schema/mySchema.xsd"
>

but would require that you use your schema URL as your namespace URI.

> And in my schema (here's where everything changed):
> 
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> <!DOCTYPE schema
>     PUBLIC 
>       "-//W3C//DTD XML Schema Version 1.0//EN"
>     SYSTEM 
>       "http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xmlschema-1-19991217/structures.dtd"
> >
> 
> <schema targetNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
>         xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
>         xmlns:myNamespace="http://someUrl.com"
> >
> 
>   <element name="element1" type="myNamespace:element1Type" />
> 
>   <type name="element1Type">
>     <element name="element2">
>       <type content="empty" />
>     </element>
>   </type>
> 
>   <element name="element3" type="string" />
> 
> </schema>
> 
> That would be right, as I can tell.  My only unsurety is whether it is
> correct to omit the namespace before each element's name (in a DTD, of
> course, this has to be myNamespace:element1 and myNamespace:element2). 
> As far as I can tell, the element is defined, and the namespace listed
> in targetNamespace is then applied to all elements named.  That would be
> why the type element1Type must be referred to as
> myNamespace:element1Type in the definition of the element1 element,
> correct?  The namespace is applied to it.  So can someone let me know if
> I am reading this right, or if I'm off in left field somewhere ;-)

The schema is all correct, and your analysis of the namespace story in 
the schema is correct (see also my message on this subject yesterday [1]).

ht

[1] http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jan-2000/0013.html
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan  2 19:02:36 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <199912262051.NAA02771@localhost.localdomain>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912261900330.8065-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com> <14440.52595.283247.36221@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386FA0D2.6845B6F0@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> Clark C. Evans writes:
> 
>  > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
>  > >
>  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", ""} ==
>  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", "html"}. 
>  >
>  >          {"","a",""} != {"","a","html"}
> 
> As I understood it, the suggestion was that
> 
>   {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}

Actually I think the namespace spec defines

    { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }

as "namespace-nonconformant", AKA some kind of error which they
neglected to describe well enough to support portable APIs.

Meaning that any application choosing to use such a "Name"
class (which IMHO is a fine notion) needs to treat this value
with care ... IEEE floating point math has a variety of sorts
of "NaN" values, perhaps useful models can be found there.
I'd suggest that most "==" tests against such a Name ought to
fail, and ordering tests should cause exceptions.

The issue came up on another namespace thread.

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan  2 22:33:21 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
References: <Pine.SOL.3.96.991222112505.20108F-100000@nine> <m31z8ed5pn.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386FD22D.765781EE@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> Rajiv Mordani <Rajiv.Mordani@eng.sun.com> writes:
> 
> > java.util.zip.ZipException deriving from IOException is
> > appropriate. It is related to i/o so it makes sense to have that.

Also, the only place it's documented to be thrown is in a constructor
which also throws IOException.  I expect the documentation is missing
a fair number of uses though -- which often happens when an exception
inherits from another one.


> I'd be interested in a clear statement of the criteria for this
> distinction

I doubt you'll get such a clear statement.  Organizational politics
have come in, as well as sloppiness on the part of some developers.
That's not just at Sun; many organizations get that way for any
particular category of design decision you can identify.

I'll just say that questions get asked if an exception has strange
inheritance, which can permit it to masquerade as something it isn't,
and defining new categories of RuntimeException is really perceived
as undesirable.  Increasingly, those questions need good answers if
such exceptions are expected to become parts of public APIs.


>	 -- you get a ZipException, presumably, because of an error
> in the format of the zip file you're reading from;

Curious example.  java.util.zip.DataFormatException is what I'd
expect to get when faced with bad ZIP data.  (Recalling some of
the chaos involved in seeing JDK 1.1 get ZIP/JAR support, it's
no surprise that its exception architecture seems pretty odd.)

That's not an IOException.


>	 you get a
> SAXException because of an error in the format of the XML file you're
> reading from.

Looking at the JDK 1.2 javadocs, I also see these data format style
exceptions, which don't derive from IOException:

	java.security.certificate.CertificateEncodingException
	java.security.certificate.CertificateParsingException
	java.text.ParseException
	java.lang.NumberFormatException
	java.awt.image.RasterFormatException
	org.omg.CORBA. ... several ...

As with XML format errors, higher layers won't usually see those;
they get morphed by intermediate layers into diagnostics that are
more task-relevant.  (A few of those are RuntimeExceptions though.)

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan  2 23:39:06 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:57 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
References: <14432.57765.516268.430263@localhost.localdomain>
	 <Pine.SOL.3.96.991222105955.20108C-100000@nine> <14433.8570.811500.337122@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <386FE197.CB4FC03C@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> I especially like the idea that higher-level libraries could have
> 
>   void importXML (String uri) throws IOException;
> 
> without the application's having any direct dependency on SAX
> interfaces.

That's possible regardless of the inheritance of SAXException,
so that can't be your real motivation.


>	  It could accomplish the same thing by having a
> SAXExceptionAdapter that embeds the SAXException and extends
> IOException, but that seems like a lot of unnecessary fuss for a very
> common case.

Is that the motivation?  In my work, such cases aren't common.  I need
all basic classes of fault to get different handling paths, and it's
never been a problem to have a "throws SAXException" be one of them (or
to map all the underlying faults to some more task-appropriate reporting
models, perhaps not involving exceptions at all).

Likewise, I've always found code like

	try {
		...
	} catch (MostDerivedException e) {
		// this has to go FIRST !!!
		...
	} catch (LessDerivedException e) {
		// don't put this after LeastDerivedException
		...
	} catch (LeastDerivedException e) {
		// careful -- this has lots of subclasses
		...
	} catch (... other cases ...) {
		...
	}

to be error prone.  Often some try/catch gets written and omits critical
cases, and testing won't turn them up until a release or two is fielded
(and then it's often expensive to find and fix the problems).  Far better
to use the language's strong typing facility to have the compiler make sure
all cases are handled from day one, by not having those exceptions inherit.

- Dave
		



> Opinions?
> 
> All the best,
> 
> David
> 
> --
> David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
>            http://www.megginson.com/
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From vita96 at se.its-sby.edu  Mon Jan  3 04:39:38 2000
From: vita96 at se.its-sby.edu (Vita Prihatoni)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Happy Millenium...
Message-ID: <B7B304246D85D311A62D00902761005102CBAD@RPL_ROUTER>


	Hi, folks.

	Happy millenium to you all. I think Millenium bug is an
euphoria, isn't it ?!

            Vita Prihatoni Purnomo
            ---------------------------------

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From sbrown at saonet.ucla.edu  Mon Jan  3 05:49:13 2000
From: sbrown at saonet.ucla.edu (Brown, Sam)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: XML digital signatures
Message-ID: <1EF0C92BCCDAD2118FD40020480E269B01B0B38B@10EEXCHANGE>

I'm wondering if anyone has any leads as to how to implement XML digital
signatures within a web-based form.

Sam

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From ashish_agarwal at msdc.hcltech.com  Mon Jan  3 10:48:39 2000
From: ashish_agarwal at msdc.hcltech.com (Ashish Agarwal,AMB Chennai)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: xml with xsl
Message-ID: <21FCEFDE42DFD211A1A10007250603B2F3206D@PLUTO>

Hi,
I need access attribute values of my XML code in my XSL code. 
Any suggestions please
Rgds,
Ashish

Araise, Awake, stop not till the goal is reached
					- Swamy Vivekananda



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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Mon Jan  3 11:06:29 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <199912262051.NAA02771@localhost.localdomain>
		 <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912261900330.8065-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com> <14440.52595.283247.36221@localhost.localdomain> <386FA0D2.6845B6F0@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <387083EF.C563875B@mecomnet.de>

i had understood
  {"","a",""},
from the example, to denote a name in a namespace for which there would have
been a declaration, namely a binding such as

  <... xmlns="" ... >

for the ignominious "null" namespace. how does this come to correspond to

  { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix } ?

i agree that an "==" implementation needs to account for this, but didn't
think it was nonconformant.

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> David Megginson wrote:
> >
> > Clark C. Evans writes:
> >
> >  > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", ""} ==
> >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", "html"}.
> >  >
> >  >          {"","a",""} != {"","a","html"}
> >
> > As I understood it, the suggestion was that
> >
> >   {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}
> 
> Actually I think the namespace spec defines
> 
>     { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }
> 
> as "namespace-nonconformant", AKA some kind of error which they
> neglected to describe well enough to support portable APIs.
> 
> Meaning that any application choosing to use such a "Name"
> class (which IMHO is a fine notion) needs to treat this value
> with care ... IEEE floating point math has a variety of sorts
> of "NaN" values, perhaps useful models can be found there.
> I'd suggest that most "==" tests against such a Name ought to
> fail, and ordering tests should cause exceptions.
>


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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Mon Jan  3 11:30:23 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Hierarchical namespaces?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912292224520.15049-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <3870898C.3D3E238C@mecomnet.de>

hierarchical namespaces provide the ability to establish symbol identity
indirectly by specifying a network of inheritance relationships among the sets
of names which the respective namespaces entail.

were the concepts and appropriate mechanisms to be made available in the xml
domain, they could be used, for example, to implement versioning and would be
one way to approach problems like the "multi-namespace-html" issue.

one possible analog is the package system in common lisp, which provides the
means to declare relationships among sets of symbols as well as relationships
among individual symbols.

the primitives support such things as
 specifying a symbol's membership in a set
 specifying visibility from outside the set
 specifying inheritance of visible symbols between two sets
 specifying limits to visibility from inside a set

please note, that these have nothing to do with what a given symbol may be
bound to, just with its identity.

given these facilities, the application can take the opportunity, when it
declares the "known" names in preparation for specifying processing methods,
to specify that ostensibly distinct names - that is, those with non identical
encodings, are in fact the same name and to be processed in the same way.
while it is true, that it's a shorthand only, it does make the application a
lot easier to code.

Clark C. Evans wrote:
> 
>  
> That being said, I had never expected a set of namespaces
> to have value by organizing them hierarchially... so I'm
> wondering exactly what value a hierarchy of namespaces would
> provide?  Would it be a sequence of ever-so-much-more-specific
> schemas?  Where the most specific definition is the binding
> one? I can't think of any other reasons why I'd have more
> than one namespace for a given "domain", let alone a
> hierarchically organized set.  What am I missing?
>


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Mon Jan  3 13:32:02 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: xml with xsl
References: <21FCEFDE42DFD211A1A10007250603B2F3206D@PLUTO>
Message-ID: <001501bf55ef$a9b4b400$1c15b0cf@tomshp>

Ashish Agarwal,AMB Chennai wrote:
> Hi,
> I need access attribute values of my XML code in my XSL code.
> Any suggestions please

use @attributename, as in:

<xsl:value-of select="@attribute1"/>

The "@" symbol denotes that you are referring to an attribute instead of an
element.




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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan  3 14:24:07 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: David Brownell's message of "Sun, 02 Jan 2000 10:48:35 -0800"
References: <14430.46481.974707.922192@localhost.localdomain> <012701bf4b44$0c68b030$4a5eedc1@arp01> <14430.55483.433692.943811@localhost.localdomain> <385FA4C9.2B054683@pacbell.net> <14442.32320.722924.870701@localhost.localdomain> <386F9D83.326CB9@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <m3hfgvcjza.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net> writes:

> I once did a pretty quick'n'dirty one that cost barely 10% even though
> it used DOM data structures (which, for attribute lists and values, are
> often grossly inefficient).  I've every reason to believe it could be
> done with much lower cost.  Perhaps your 25% was doing more work than
> was required.

Basically, an NS layer has to look at every element and attribute name
and check whether it begins with xmlns or contains a colon, and it has 
to copy (or wrap) the attribute list if it contains an xmlns*
attribute or a prefixed attribute name.  

After my initial tests, I managed some savings by maintaining a stack
of hash maps (one for each Namespace state) to cache names that had
already been seen and save some of the more expensive string
operations, but the attribute-list iteration and copying couldn't be
avoided, and they can be costly.

> Then there's also the approach of having the processing be integrated
> with the next layer, which already needs to iterate and examine.  (And
> with different goals than a parser!)  Such approaches can reduce the
> cost much further -- effectively, to zero.

Yes, but you lose a *lot* of reusability -- the Namespace processor
has to be written again for each process that uses it (XSL, XLink,
RDF, etc.) rather than just once.

> Raising that point about compatibility.  There's not been much of
> discussion abou the fairly substantial change you're proposing,
> that SAX1 and SAX2 seemingly be incompatible at this basic level.
> It's only come out implicitly in reaction to other points.

Actually, I described it quite explicitly in my posting "SAX2:
Namespace Proposal":

  With SAX2 alpha 1, the idea was to preserve SAX 1.0 pretty much intact 
  and add extra features to it.  Upon reflection, I think that it will
  make more sense to create a whole new package, org.xml.sax2 (if OASIS
  gives permission), which is similar to org.xml.sax in many but not all 
  respects -- that will avoid nightmarish problems with classpaths,
  etc., and it will be quite easy to write adapters.

For some reason, this message is missing from the archive, though
there are dozens of replies to it.

> I've been leaning in various cases to "XML+namespaces" as a default,
> but think it _must_ be possible to do more than "try" to disable it.
> Namespaces are not mandatory (not part of the XML spec) and by now
> it's well known they're not trouble-free.  SAX2 shouldn't preclude
> systems that choose not to use namespaces.

To be fair, it wouldn't preclude systems that choose not to use
Namespaces, unless they also chose to use names with colons in
different ways (and the XML 1.0 REC warns strongly against doing so).


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Mon Jan  3 14:51:10 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
In-Reply-To: <386FD22D.765781EE@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001030942500.5889-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Sun, 2 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> >	 -- you get a ZipException, presumably, because of an error
> > in the format of the zip file you're reading from;
> 
> Curious example.  java.util.zip.DataFormatException is what I'd
> expect to get when faced with bad ZIP data.  (Recalling some of
> the chaos involved in seeing JDK 1.1 get ZIP/JAR support, it's
> no surprise that its exception architecture seems pretty odd.)
> 
> That's not an IOException.

I don't think it is all that cut and dry.

Let's say that you are reading information
from a TCP/IP pipe.  And that, according to
the protocol, the next token arriving should
be an X.  Now suppose that a Y arrives 
instead.  Is this an IOException?   

Suppose instead that the file system directory
says that file FILE is N bytes long.  Also 
suppose, that the file system uses the token 
X to mark the end of a file.  Now, let's say 
that while reading FILE from the hard drive, 
token Y was found at position N instead of X.  
Is this an IOException?

I guess I'm trying to say that a data format 
exception in one context could easily be seen
as an I/O exception in another context.

Clark


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From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jan  3 16:44:07 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Specifying scope of uniqueness in XML Schemas?
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AAF5@RED-MSG-08> <386CA878.67743310@mitre.org> <f5byaab3z40.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <386F4B76.106883C7@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <3870D246.C68BB9FD@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

In section 3.7 of the XML Schema spec it talks about the mechanism for
indicating uniqueness (of elements, attributes, or combinations
thereof).  It says that you can specify uniqueness within a region, or
over the entire document:

"Constraints can be specified to have document-wide scope or to hold
within the scope of particular elements."

Can someone explain to me how you indicate the scope of a constraint?  I
am guessing that it is with the selector element, but I am not sure. 
/Roger


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan  3 17:22:27 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001030942500.5889-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <3870DA79.3F74F404@pacbell.net>

"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> 
> I guess I'm trying to say that a data format
> exception in one context could easily be seen
> as an I/O exception in another context.

Actually, everything boils down to an EINVAL at
some level ... everything else is just varying
layers of sugar to explain what was INVAL !  ;-)

- Dave

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From tmmet at hotmail.com  Mon Jan  3 17:24:25 2000
From: tmmet at hotmail.com (tmmet tvp)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Sorting,filtering and search
Message-ID: <20000103172350.8084.qmail@hotmail.com>

Hi,
Can anyone help me out.Any ideas or suggestions will be greatly helpful for 
me.
I've a list box with all the tag name attributes in my xml file .
Say as,
Filter using :
Title,
Author,
name,
Id

When I click on/select from this list box,I should filter my xml file using
the attribute that I selected from the list box and create a tree view(as in 
explorer).
I've to do this filtering and tree view display using xsl.
Filtering is not working for me.

Can you help me out.This is very urgent.If you have time,can you help me?.
In my xsl file,

<?xml version="1.0" ?>
<xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/TR/WD-xsl">
  <!-- Identity transformation template -->

  <xsl:template>
  <xsl:copy>
  <xsl:apply-templates select="@* | * | comment() | pi() | text()"/>
  </xsl:copy>
  </xsl:template>
  <xsl:template match="/">
<xsl:apply-templates select="//CHAPTER"/>
  </xsl:template>

<xsl:template match="SUBCHAPTER[@ID = '2']" />

<xsl:template match="CHAPTER">
//do the tree view code here
</xsl:template>

<xsl:template match="SUBCHAPTER">
//do the tree view code here
</xsl:template>
</xsl:stylesheet >

Its not working.That is,its not filtering.
I don't know where is the exaxt error.
Its displaying the entire contents.Its not filtering.
Can you please help  me out.
Thanks in advance.



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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan  3 17:29:59 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Specifying scope of uniqueness in XML Schemas?
In-Reply-To: Roger Costello's message of "Mon, 03 Jan 2000 11:45:58 -0500"
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AAF5@RED-MSG-08> <386CA878.67743310@mitre.org> <f5byaab3z40.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <386F4B76.106883C7@mitre.org> <3870D246.C68BB9FD@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <f5bzoun2hdb.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Roger Costello <costello@mitre.org> writes:

> In section 3.7 of the XML Schema spec it talks about the mechanism for
> indicating uniqueness (of elements, attributes, or combinations
> thereof).  It says that you can specify uniqueness within a region, or
> over the entire document:
> 
> "Constraints can be specified to have document-wide scope or to hold
> within the scope of particular elements."
> 
> Can someone explain to me how you indicate the scope of a constraint?  I
> am guessing that it is with the selector element, but I am not sure. 

Sorry this isn't clearer:  The scope is indicated by where the
declaration goes:  if I put a <key> element within an element
declaration for an element named 'foo', then the uniqueness and
ubiquity constraints obtain within each <foo>...</foo> in a document.

The <selector> tells you which elements WITHIN each <foo> must have keys.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Mon Jan  3 18:02:07 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
In-Reply-To: <3870DA79.3F74F404@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001031231330.5889-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> "Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> > I guess I'm trying to say that a data format
> > exception in one context could easily be seen
> > as an I/O exception in another context.
> 
> Actually, everything boils down to an EINVAL at
> some level ... everything else is just varying
> layers of sugar to explain what was INVAL !  ;-)

Yes.  And the detail of such sugar should depend
upon the task being performed.

A SAX parser is not a library of functions each performing
distinct granular and possibly recoverable operations.

Rather, a SAX parser is a processing component which takes 
an XML input source and generates an event stream as output.  
It's internal workings are encapsulated -- it does not expose 
highly granular control of its process.  Thus, possible
automated recover schemes are (understandably) rather limited.  
Therefore, it seems perfectly acceptable for the error to be 
generic.  Further, if you consider the SAX parser's primary 
task, that of converting an input source to an output stream, 
of the generic errors, IOException seems the best fit.

Clark




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From begeddov at jfinity.com  Mon Jan  3 18:26:10 2000
From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
Message-ID: <3870E62A.8C62FE4@jfinity.com>

I have a hopefully simple question concerning locally
scoped element decls and namespaces. Here is an example
schema:

<schema targetNamespace='urn:person-schema'>
        <type name='Person'>
                <element name='fname' type='string' />
                <element name='lname' type='string' />
        </type>
        <element name='Person' type='Person' />
</schema>

Given this schema, here is an instance:

<t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
  
xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
        <fname>Helen</fname>
        <lname>Jones</lname>
</t:Person>

Is this right or should fname and lname be bound to the
same namespace as Person, i.e.: 

<t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
  
xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
        <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
        <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>
</t:Person>


Cordially from Corvallis,

Gabe Beged-Dov

-- 
--------------------------- 
http://www.jfinity.com/gabe

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan  3 19:00:41 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001031231330.5889-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <3870F1DB.3A00147F@pacbell.net>

"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> > "Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> > > I guess I'm trying to say that a data format
> > > exception in one context could easily be seen
> > > as an I/O exception in another context.
> >
> > Actually, everything boils down to an EINVAL at
> > some level ... everything else is just varying
> > layers of sugar to explain what was INVAL !  ;-)
> 
> Yes.  And the detail of such sugar should depend
> upon the task being performed.

The interface spec captures such details.  So for
example "it's not there" (EINVAL) is distinct from
"what's there is corrupt" (EINVAL) is distinct from
"what's there has validity errors" (EINVAL) is also
different from "unsupported encoding" (EINVAL).


> Rather, a SAX parser is a processing component which takes
> an XML input source and generates an event stream as output.
> It's internal workings are encapsulated -- it does not expose
> highly granular control of its process.

No exception exposes "control"; it's a fault report,
the processor can't continue, and it's saying exactly
why it couldn't continue.  The sugar over "EINVAL" is
critical to enabling robust fault recovery.

Of course, there are people who write software that's
not robust.  Even managers who insist on it, and make
careers out of fixing the ensuing fires.


>	  Thus, possible
> automated recover schemes are (understandably) rather limited.

Which is why I can't understand the motivation to make
distinguishing the really basic cases be any more error
prone than it already is.  Any win is at best minor (not
that I agree there is one), and there are visible costs.

Bugs in fault handling code are by far the hardest to find
and fix.  Strongly typed exceptions are one of the few tools
that have come along to address that in the past decade.


> Therefore, it seems perfectly acceptable for the error to be
> generic.  Further, if you consider the SAX parser's primary
> task, that of converting an input source to an output stream,
> of the generic errors, IOException seems the best fit.

You deleted (and then ignored) the points I raised about
why "generic" _reports_ of non-generic errors are bad, so
I'll just say I remain unconvinced.

- Dave

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Mon Jan  3 19:20:31 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Namespaces and Validating XML Parsers Question
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB05@RED-MSG-08>

The namespaces specification does not provide any particular means to
associate a namespace with any defining or collateral documents (e.g.
schemas).  It only provides a means to map qualified name prefixes to URIs,
thereby allowing names to be unique.

The specification leaves it up to other facilities to actually associate
those unique names with related documents.  One such facility is the XML
Schemas specification, which contains a mechanism by which an author can
associate a schema with a namespace. 

-----Original Message-----
From: Bruce D. Nilo [mailto:bruce@nilo.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 30, 1999 7:00 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Namespaces and Validating XML Parsers Question


Apologies if this is a well understood question. I am recently slogging
through the XML specs and tools and have not really found anything
that sheds light on this question. I hope the answer is a simple one.

I believe I understand the rationale and syntax of namespaces for XML
application instances. However I can find nowhere any explanation
as to how a validating parser knows how to associate an element or
attribute that is in a specific namespace with the elements and
attributes of either an external or internal DTD reference. Am I
missing something here, or is the specification punting entirely on
the issue? It seems to me that either the application instance must
associate a namespace declaration with a specific DTD or the DTD
itself must declare its name. If this is not the case the XML parser
has a difficult job determining how to interpret the names in a namespace
with those of a number of referenced DTDs which have name collisions.

- Bruce




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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Mon Jan  3 20:03:52 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08>

The first is the right interpretation of local namespaces.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gabe Beged-Dov [mailto:begeddov@jfinity.com]
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 10:11 AM
To: XML List
Cc: xml-schema-comments
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces


I have a hopefully simple question concerning locally
scoped element decls and namespaces. Here is an example
schema:

<schema targetNamespace='urn:person-schema'>
        <type name='Person'>
                <element name='fname' type='string' />
                <element name='lname' type='string' />
        </type>
        <element name='Person' type='Person' />
</schema>

Given this schema, here is an instance:

<t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
  
xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
        <fname>Helen</fname>
        <lname>Jones</lname>
</t:Person>

Is this right or should fname and lname be bound to the
same namespace as Person, i.e.: 

<t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
  
xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
        <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
        <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>
</t:Person>


Cordially from Corvallis,

Gabe Beged-Dov

-- 
--------------------------- 
http://www.jfinity.com/gabe

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Mon Jan  3 20:05:58 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX2: Should SAXException extend IOException?
In-Reply-To: <3870F1DB.3A00147F@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001031419120.12623-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Mon, 3 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> > Yes.  And the detail of such sugar should depend
> > upon the task being performed.
> 
> The interface spec captures such details.  So for
> example "it's not there" (EINVAL) is distinct from
> "what's there is corrupt" (EINVAL) is distinct from
> "what's there has validity errors" (EINVAL) is also
> different from "unsupported encoding" (EINVAL).

Of course it would be nice to have a more explicit list 
of specific exceptions... 

However, the question was if these exceptions (be it one or 
many explicit ones) should extend IOException, or should be 
part of a seperate sub-tree, or should be spread out over 
several root trees (both IOException and SaxException).
 
> > Rather, a SAX parser is a processing component which takes
> > an XML input source and generates an event stream as output.
> > It's internal workings are encapsulated -- it does not expose
> > highly granular control of its process.
> 
> No exception exposes "control"; it's a fault report,
> the processor can't continue, and it's saying exactly
> why it couldn't continue.  The sugar over "EINVAL" is
> critical to enabling robust fault recovery.

I don't think we are in disagreement here -- "it" was 
referring to the parser as a whole, not just the relevant 
exceptions.  As you carefully point out, without relevant 
exceptions over the possible fault space, you can't make 
specific corrections, thus control is reduced.

> > Thus, possible automated recover schemes are 
> > (understandably) rather limited.
> 
> Which is why I can't understand the motivation to make
> distinguishing the really basic cases be any more error
> prone than it already is.  Any win is at best minor (not
> that I agree there is one), and there are visible costs.

What would be helpful (to move the discussion along)
is a list of possible use cases for fault recovery.
You have a nice starter list above.  How about:

IOException
  SaxException
    SaxInvalidEncodingException
    SaxInputSourceNotFoundException
    SaxNotWellFormedException
      SaxUnknownEntityException
      SaxMisMatchedElementException
      ...
    SaxNotValidException


> Bugs in fault handling code are by far the hardest to find
> and fix.  Strongly typed exceptions are one of the few tools
> that have come along to address that in the past decade.

Yes, they can be very useful.  Especially the C++/Java style
exceptions that are not easily ignored (unlike C return values)

> > Therefore, it seems perfectly acceptable for the error to be
> > generic.  Further, if you consider the SAX parser's primary
> > task, that of converting an input source to an output stream,
> > of the generic errors, IOException seems the best fit.
> 
> You deleted (and then ignored) the points I raised about
> why "generic" _reports_ of non-generic errors are bad, so
> I'll just say I remain unconvinced.

Very sorry.  I don't think I was trying to argue 
against specific exceptions.  

..

I was attempting to express that, as a core function, 
the SAX parser is a input/output adapter, converting an 
XML source as input into a stream of events as output.

Therefore, it makes perfect sense for the base exception 
to be an IOException.  Having specific exceptions are a 
very welcome bonus.

Clark


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From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jan  3 20:42:43 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08>
Message-ID: <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org>

Let me see if I understand this correctly.  If I wish to indicate in the
instance document that everything between <Person> and </Person>
conforms to the schema in urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd, then this
is the correct syntax:

<t:Person xmlns:t="urn:person-schema"
          xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</t:fname>
    <lname>Jones</t:lname>
</t:Person>

If the above is correct, then please tell me what it means when we don't
declare the namespace:

<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</t:fname>
    <lname>Jones</t:lname>
</Person>

/Roger

Andrew Layman wrote:
> 
> The first is the right interpretation of local namespaces.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabe Beged-Dov [mailto:begeddov@jfinity.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 10:11 AM
> To: XML List
> Cc: xml-schema-comments
> Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
> 
> I have a hopefully simple question concerning locally
> scoped element decls and namespaces. Here is an example
> schema:
> 
> <schema targetNamespace='urn:person-schema'>
>         <type name='Person'>
>                 <element name='fname' type='string' />
>                 <element name='lname' type='string' />
>         </type>
>         <element name='Person' type='Person' />
> </schema>
> 
> Given this schema, here is an instance:
> 
> <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> 
> xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
>         <fname>Helen</fname>
>         <lname>Jones</lname>
> </t:Person>
> 
> Is this right or should fname and lname be bound to the
> same namespace as Person, i.e.:
> 
> <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> 
> xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
>         <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
>         <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>
> </t:Person>
> 
> Cordially from Corvallis,
> 
> Gabe Beged-Dov
> 
> --
> ---------------------------
> http://www.jfinity.com/gabe
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
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> 
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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Mon Jan  3 21:39:46 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: added namespace support to pull parser
Message-ID: <3871175C.D913987B@trantor.de>

Hello!

I added namespace support to my java pull parser. It's available at:
http://www.trantor.de/xml. 

best regards

Stefan

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From dpotter at mitre.org  Mon Jan  3 21:58:55 2000
From: dpotter at mitre.org (Daniel Potter)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: XML Schemas and the Enumeration Facet
Message-ID: <387119D2.85F33FBE@mitre.org>

I have some questions about using the enumeration facet along with other
facets which I hope someone can explain.

The enumeration facet is defined as "constrain[ing] the value space of
the datatype to the specified list" which I take to mean intuitively
that the "instances" of data which are to be checked against the
datatype with the enumeration must be in the list.

An enumeration could be as follows:

<datatype name="example" source="string">
   <enumeration value="first value">
   <enumeration value="another">
   <enumeration value="third">
</datatype>

This would mean that any elements corresponding to the example datatype
must be either "first value", "another" or "third".  So
<example>third</example> is OK, but <example>ABC</example> is wrong. 
(Assuming example is of type example, of course :)

HOWEVER, suppose that instead:

<datatype name="example" source="string">
   <enumeration value="first value">
   <enumeration value="another">
   <enumeration value="third">
   <maxlength value="7">
</datatype>

This would be OK, except that "first value" has a length of eleven,
meaning that it does not fit in the datatype where the maximum length is
seven.  However, it is specified to belong by enumeration.  Which takes
precendence?  The first to appear?  The last?

Can enumeration be used to add values which would otherwise be illegal? 
And what happens when enumeration is used with other facets?  Apparently
this is legal.  And if a user-defined datatype specifies facets over a
datatype with enumerated values, what happens if the new facets render
some of the enumerated values invalid?  (Or what if it enumerates values
which are illegal by the underlying datatype it's generated over?)

Finally, a quick question about the float/double datatype.  Should the
default exponent *really* be one?  Shouldn't it be zero?  According to
the spec, if Exx is not specified, it defaults to one.  Isn't 1E1 = 10? 
So wouldn't that multiply all values by ten compared to what the author
most likely intended?  (If I wrote <float>3.14159</float>, wouldn't it
be read as 31.4159?)  Just curious if this is a typo, or if I'm
misunderstanding something, or if it is intended the way I understand
it.

Thanks for any help on these questions.


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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Mon Jan  3 22:52:27 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB12@RED-MSG-08>

I don't quite understand your question.  In your second example, the
<Person> element is not associated with any namespace, neither are the child
elements, nor are any of them associated with any schema.  I think that is
the end of the story.

-----Original Message-----
From: Roger Costello [mailto:costello@mitre.org]
Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 12:45 PM
To: XML List
Cc: xml-schema-comments
Subject: Re: locally scoped element decls and namespaces


Let me see if I understand this correctly.  If I wish to indicate in the
instance document that everything between <Person> and </Person>
conforms to the schema in urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd, then this
is the correct syntax:

<t:Person xmlns:t="urn:person-schema"
          xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</t:fname>
    <lname>Jones</t:lname>
</t:Person>

If the above is correct, then please tell me what it means when we don't
declare the namespace:

<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</t:fname>
    <lname>Jones</t:lname>
</Person>

/Roger

Andrew Layman wrote:
> 
> The first is the right interpretation of local namespaces.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gabe Beged-Dov [mailto:begeddov@jfinity.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 10:11 AM
> To: XML List
> Cc: xml-schema-comments
> Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
> 
> I have a hopefully simple question concerning locally
> scoped element decls and namespaces. Here is an example
> schema:
> 
> <schema targetNamespace='urn:person-schema'>
>         <type name='Person'>
>                 <element name='fname' type='string' />
>                 <element name='lname' type='string' />
>         </type>
>         <element name='Person' type='Person' />
> </schema>
> 
> Given this schema, here is an instance:
> 
> <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> 
> xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
>         <fname>Helen</fname>
>         <lname>Jones</lname>
> </t:Person>
> 
> Is this right or should fname and lname be bound to the
> same namespace as Person, i.e.:
> 
> <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> 
> xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
>         <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
>         <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>
> </t:Person>
> 
> Cordially from Corvallis,
> 
> Gabe Beged-Dov
> 
> --
> ---------------------------
> http://www.jfinity.com/gabe
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan  3 23:28:33 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Request for Discussion: SAX 1.0 in C++
Message-ID: <8725685B.0080EC28.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>> For those folks who need to store text, they can certainly strip off
>> unwanted bytes before storing it. It is much more reasonable to
>> require transcoding of people storing text than to require everyone
>> using the data on the fly to transcode.
>
>Using data on the fly is what I want to do.  That's why I prefer to
>get it in the form I will use it.
>

For most people though, UTF-8 is a loser. If you want to do any poking
around in the text, having it be UTF-8 (a non-fixed size encoding) is a
huge pain in the butt. In my opinion, Unicode is it, period. Its the
future, and everyone should start dealing with it. Unicode based wide
character APIs are available almost everywhere so that you can work
directly with the Unicode until it actually has to go to some system API
that requires it be in a local code page.

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan  3 23:31:05 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <8725685B.0081274E.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>    SAXString(const char* p)
>    : basic_string<SAXChar>(p)
>    {
>    // do UTF-8 to UTF-16 decoding here
>    }
>
>};
>
>and then:
>
>void DocumentHandler::startElement (
>     const SAXString& name, const AttributeList& atts)
>{
>     if (name == SAXString("Paragraph")) ...
>}
>

If anything, it should go the other way. Unicode should be the core API,
and there should be helper API to allow the use of local code page chars
where necessary. Everything should be set up to optimize use of the Unicode
API, with local code page use paying the price, since Unicode is the more
desireable format.

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From sb at metis.no  Tue Jan  4 07:40:14 2000
From: sb at metis.no (Steinar Bang)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: Request for Discussion: SAX 1.0 in C++
In-Reply-To: roddey@us.ibm.com's message of "Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:28:09 -0700"
References: <wh1z8g4u8f.fsf@viffer.metis.no> <8725685B.0080EC28.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <wh1z7y1e0a.fsf@viffer.metis.no>

>>>>> roddey@us.ibm.com:

>>> For those folks who need to store text, they can certainly strip off
>>> unwanted bytes before storing it. It is much more reasonable to
>>> require transcoding of people storing text than to require everyone
>>> using the data on the fly to transcode.

>> Using data on the fly is what I want to do.  That's why I prefer to
>> get it in the form I will use it.

> For most people though, UTF-8 is a loser.

Please note that in the quoted text, I was talking about converting
from UTF-16 stored in 32 bit wchar_t, to UTF-16 stored in 16 bit wide
character strings.

I was worried about the overhead of using 32 bit for 16 bit values,
and I was worried about the conversion overhead from 32 bit to 16 bit
strings. 

Nothing about UTF-8 at all.

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From sb at metis.no  Tue Jan  4 09:04:49 2000
From: sb at metis.no (Steinar Bang)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: SAX/C++: First interface draft
In-Reply-To: Steinar Bang's message of "27 Dec 1999 22:24:55 +0100"
References: <14406.59198.949047.2487@localhost.localdomain> <38474BAF.AF4CFF2D@jclark.com> <wh4sd484bc.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <whg0weyzpu.fsf@viffer.metis.no>

>>>>> Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no>:

>>>>> James Clark <jjc@jclark.com>:
>> One interesting issue is whether to provide a virtual destructor.  I
>> think the safest solution is not to provide a virtual destructor but
>> instead to declare but not define a private operator delete.  This makes
>> it a compile time error to do:

>> DTDHandler *p;
>> // ...
>> delete p;

> [snip! problems with virtual destructors in dispatching DocumentHandlers]

Another place this might be a problem, is when throwing exceptions.
How long do the exception objects live?  Are they copied?  Are they
deleted? 

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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Tue Jan  4 09:18:34 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:58 2004
Subject: ANN: 4DOM 0.9.1
Message-ID: <3871BADF.9F02F6E9@fourthought.com>

FourThought LLC (http://FourThought.com) announces the release of

                             4DOM 0.9.1
                      -----------------------
                An XML/HTML Python library using the
                  Document Object Model interface

4DOM is a Python library for XML and HTML processing and manipulation
using the W3C's Document Object Model for interface.  4DOM implements
DOM Core level 2, HTML level 2 and Level 2 Document Traversal.

4DOM should work on all platforms supported by Python.  If you have
any problems with a particular platform, please e-mail the authors.

4DOM is designed to allow developers rapidly design applications
that read, write or manipulate HTML and XML.

News
----

This is a bug-fix release.

More info and Obtaining 4DOM
----------------------------

Please see

        http://FourThought.com/4Suite/4DOM

Or you can download 4DOM from

        ftp://FourThought.com/pub/4Suite/4DOM

4DOM is distributed under a license similar to that of Python.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
FourThought LLC, IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://FourThought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org

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From ashish_agarwal at msdc.hcltech.com  Tue Jan  4 11:10:04 2000
From: ashish_agarwal at msdc.hcltech.com (Ashish Agarwal,AMB Chennai)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Problems with the mailing list
Message-ID: <21FCEFDE42DFD211A1A10007250603B2F3252A@PLUTO>

I am receiving 2 copies of each mail fromn the mailing list.
I request the moderator to please look into it.

Regards,
Ashish Agarwal

Araise, Awake, stop not till the goal is reached
					- Swamy Vivekananda

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan  4 12:04:44 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: SAX2: Parser interface
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751AC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Here is my current draft of the SAX2 Parser class:
>
>  public interface Parser
>  {
>    public void setLocale (Locale locale)
>      throws SAXNotSupportedException;

What's the rationale for this? How do Locales (as opposed to
character encodings) fit in with XML parsing?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/




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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan  4 12:50:19 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
In-Reply-To: Roger Costello's message of "Mon, 03 Jan 2000 15:44:40 -0500"
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Roger Costello <costello@mitre.org> writes:

> Let me see if I understand this correctly.  If I wish to indicate in the
> instance document that everything between <Person> and </Person>
> conforms to the schema in urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd, then this
> is the correct syntax:
> 
> <t:Person xmlns:t="urn:person-schema"
>           xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
>           xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
>                               urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">

     <fname>Helen</fname>
     <lname>Jones</lname>

<!-- or -->

     <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
     <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>

> </t:Person>

With all respect to Andrew Layman, the working group has not yet
settled this question (what is the correct form for element GIs with
locally scoped declarations), which is logged as an outstanding issue.
There are strong arguments for and against both answers.

> If the above is correct, then please tell me what it means when we don't
> declare the namespace:
> 
> <Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
>           xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
>                               urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
>     <fname>Helen</fname>
>     <lname>Jones</lname>
> </Person>

There's something missing from your example, and the answer depends on 
which way you fill it in:

1) The default namespace is declared with the URI "urn:person-schema":

<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xmlns="urn:person-schema"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</fname>
    <lname>Jones</lname>
</Person>

which ONLY is coherent under the second (elements with locally-scoped
declarations are declared in the same namespace as their parent is
declared in) interpretation.  To produce a schema-valid instance under
the first (element with locally-scoped declarations are in NO
namespace) interpretation, the following would be required:

<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xmlns="urn:person-schema"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname xmlns=''>Helen</fname>
    <lname xmlns=''>Jones</lname>
</Person>

2) You meant the document to not use any namespace at all:

<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="##what.goes.here???###
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</fname>
    <lname>Jones</lname>
</Person>

We don't yet have a concrete syntax for indicating an association
between "no namespace" and a schema in xsi:schemaLocation.  We know we
need to fill this gap.  The locally-scoped element declaration issue
doesn't arise in this case, or rather both interpretations give the
same answer.

> /Roger
> 
> Andrew Layman wrote:
> > 
> > The first is the right interpretation of local namespaces.

Again, with respect, the question of whether locally-scoped element
declarations imply local namespace [partitions] has not been resolved
by the WG.

> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Gabe Beged-Dov [mailto:begeddov@jfinity.com]
> > Sent: Monday, January 03, 2000 10:11 AM
> > To: XML List
> > Cc: xml-schema-comments
> > Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
> > 
> > I have a hopefully simple question concerning locally
> > scoped element decls and namespaces. Here is an example
> > schema:
> > 
> > <schema targetNamespace='urn:person-schema'>
> >         <type name='Person'>
> >                 <element name='fname' type='string' />
> >                 <element name='lname' type='string' />
> >         </type>
> >         <element name='Person' type='Person' />
> > </schema>
> > 
> > Given this schema, here is an instance:
> > 
> > <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> > 
> > xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
> >         <fname>Helen</fname>
> >         <lname>Jones</lname>
> > </t:Person>
> > 
> > Is this right or should fname and lname be bound to the
> > same namespace as Person, i.e.:
> > 
> > <t:Person xmlns:t='urn:person-schema'
> > 
> > xmlns:xsi='http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance'>
> >         <t:fname>Helen</t:fname>
> >         <t:lname>Jones</t:lname>
> > </t:Person>
> > 
> > Cordially from Corvallis,
> > 
> > Gabe Beged-Dov
> > 
> > --
> > ---------------------------
> > http://www.jfinity.com/gabe
> > 
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
> > 981-02-3594-1
> > To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> > unsubscribe xml-dev
> > To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> > message;
> > subscribe xml-dev-digest
> > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> > 
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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> > List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> 
> 

-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Tue Jan  4 12:58:53 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: sax2: cdata, characters and ignorable whitespace
Message-ID: <3871EE6B.66DB1DC4@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>


If sax2 shall report cdata boundaries also, 
wouldn't be the simples solution to integrate 
ignoreableWhitespace, characters and cdata 
into one DocumentHandler callback method:

void characters (int type, char [] characters, int start, int length);

The value of the type parameter is one of 
the integer constants IGNORABLE_WHITESPACE, 
CHARACTERS, or CDATA. 

SAX1 compatibility could be achived by having
two setDocumentHandler methods in the Parser interface:

setDocumentHandler (org.xml.sax2.DocumentHandler);

and the old

setDocumentHandler (org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler);

as already "proposed"(?) by David, but with different
behavior: Only one handler can be active at the same 
time.

setDocumentHandler (org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler documentHandler) 

is just a convenience method and 
should be implementded as follows:

setDocumentHandler (org.xml.sax.DocumentHandler sax1DocumentHandler) {
  
  setDocumentHandler 
    (new org.xml.sax2.helpers.Sax1DocumentHandlerWrapper 
      (sax1DocumentHandler));
}

Best regards

Stefan

 

-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan  4 13:58:19 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: SAX2: Parser interface
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751AC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751AC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14449.64583.6694.198634@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin writes:
 > David Megginson wrote,

 > > Here is my current draft of the SAX2 Parser class:
 > >
 > >  public interface Parser
 > >  {
 > >    public void setLocale (Locale locale)
 > >      throws SAXNotSupportedException;
 > 
 > What's the rationale for this? How do Locales (as opposed to
 > character encodings) fit in with XML parsing?

Error reporting.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan  4 14:03:20 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Unicode confusion
In-Reply-To: roddey@us.ibm.com's message of "Mon, 3 Jan 2000 16:30:40 -0700"
References: <8725685B.0081274E.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <m3aemmc4uj.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

roddey@us.ibm.com writes:

> If anything, it should go the other way. Unicode should be the core
> API, and there should be helper API to allow the use of local code
> page chars where necessary. Everything should be set up to optimize
> use of the Unicode API, with local code page use paying the price,
> since Unicode is the more desireable format.

No one's disagreeing with the use of Unicode; we're talking about
which character encoding we'll use to represent it.  You can represent
Unicode in variable-width 8-bit or 16-bit encodings or in fixed-width
32-bit encodings.

Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
one really notices.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan  4 14:08:16 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: sax2: cdata, characters and ignorable whitespace
In-Reply-To: Stefan Haustein's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 13:58:19 +0100"
References: <3871EE6B.66DB1DC4@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <m37lhqc4mb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Stefan Haustein <haustein@kimo.cs.uni-dortmund.de> writes:

> If sax2 shall report cdata boundaries also, 
> wouldn't be the simples solution to integrate 
> ignoreableWhitespace, characters and cdata 
> into one DocumentHandler callback method:
> 
> void characters (int type, char [] characters, int start, int length);
> 
> The value of the type parameter is one of 
> the integer constants IGNORABLE_WHITESPACE, 
> CHARACTERS, or CDATA. 

It has two major disadvantages:

1. Characters in CDATA really are normal characters in the XML
   definition, and the fact that they're in a CDATA section is just
   noise for most apps (and doesn't belong in the core
   DocumentHandler).

2. People who do care about CDATA sections might be unhappy to have
   two consecutive CDATA sections collapsed into one.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From costello at mitre.org  Tue Jan  4 14:21:25 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
Message-ID: <38720239.481577DF@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

There has been a considerable amount of discussion (and confusion) on
how an XML instance document indicates the XML Schema(s) that it
conforms to.  I am not sure that it is yet clear in people's minds on
how to do it.  I will take a stab at explaining it, based upon the
discussions.  However, we really need this to be verified by someone
from the Schema WG.

[Henry, I haven't fully digested your most recent message.  Hopefully
the following is consistent with what you said.]

[Also, thanks a lot to Henry Thompson, Andrew Layman, and Rick Jelliffe 
for taking the time to answer my endless barrage of questions.  I hope
that these questions and their answers are useful to all.]

Case 1.  Entire instance document conforms to a single XML Schema

Let's use the example that Gabe Beged-Dov gave yesterday.  Here's the
skeleton of the XML Schema:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE schema SYSTEM "structures.dtd">
<schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
               targetNamespace="urn:person-schema">
    ...
</schema>

Let's assume that the URI for this schema is: 

      urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd

Thus the namespace for the elements and attributes that are declared in
person-schema.xsd is urn:person-schema.

An XML instance document that wishes to indicate that all or part of it
conforms to person-schema.xsd must use the attribute, schemaLocation. 
The value of schemaLocation must include a pair of values - the
namespace (urn:person-schema) and the URI to the Schema
(urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd).  Thus, for this case the value of
schemaLocation is:

           schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                           urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd"

A Schema-validating parser will use the URI to fetch the schema
document, and then will verify that the targetNamespace value matches
the namespace in schemaLocation.

The schemaLocation attribute is defined in the schema instance
namespace.  So, to use it in our instance document we first need to
define a qualifier for the schema instance namespace and then prefix
schemaLocation:

          xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
          xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                              urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd"


Now then, is that all that's needed in the XML instance document -
simply add schemaLocation as an attribute to the root element, i.e.

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Person xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                            urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</fname>
    <lname>Jones</lname>
</Person>

Based upon Andrew Layman's messages yesterday, the answer is no.  I
believe that I now understand why.  In the above instance document we
have not declared a namespace for the elements - Person, fname, and
lname.  Thus, they are in the document's namespace.  However, with the
schemaLocation attribute we are asserting that the elements declared in
the schema are in the urn:person-schema namespace.  Thus, in our
instance document we must make a namespace declaration to indicate that
the elements in the instance document also are in the urn:person-schema
namespace.  Since we want to declare that all the instance document
elements come from the urn:person-schema namespace, we can use it as the
default namespace.  Thus, our instance document looks like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Person xmlns="urn:person-schema"
        xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                            urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <fname>Helen</fname>
    <lname>Jones</lname>
</Person>

Using the default namespace declaration, all the elements in the
instance document have the same namespace as the schema namespace. 
Thus, the entire instance document will get schema-validated.

Case 2.  Part of the instance document conforms to a single XML Schema

Let's use the same schema as above and the same instance document. 
However, in this case let's suppose that we just want to validate
"fname" against the schema.  What would the instance document look like?

As usual we use the schemaLocation attribute to indicate the schema that
we are using.  In the instance document we need to distinguish between
those elements that are in the document namespace versus the fname
element which is in the urn:person-schema.  We can do this anywhere, but
for simplicity let's do it at the root element:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Person xmlns:p="urn:person-schema"
        xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                            urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd">
    <p:fname>Helen</p:fname>
    <lname>Jones</lname>
</Person>

The only element in the instance document which has the same namespace
as the schema namespace is fname.  Thus, it is the only element which
will get schema-validated.

Case 3.  Instance document conforms to multiple XML Schemas

Let's suppose that we have a second schema.  This second schema
specializes in defining last names (I know, it's silly):

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE schema SYSTEM "structures.dtd">
<schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
               targetNamespace="urn:last-name-schema">
    ...
</schema>

Note that this second schema's namespace is:

       urn:last-name-schema

Let's continue to use the same instance document.  However, let's assume
that we want to validate fname against the first schema and lname
against the second schema.  For the Person element, we don't want any
validation.

Our schemaLocation attribute now will have two pairs of values - the
first pair is for the first schema and the second pair is for the second
schema.  We will declare the two different namespaces and prefix fname
and lname appropriately.  Thus, the instance document is:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<Person xmlns:p="urn:person-schema"
        xmlns:l="urn:last-name-schema"
        xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
        xsi:schemaLocation="urn:person-schema
                            urn:person-schema/person-schema.xsd
                            urn:last-name-schema
                            urn:last-name-schema/last-name-schema.xsd">
    <p:fname>Helen</p:fname>
    <l:lname>Jones</l:lname>
</Person>
   
Well, I am getting tired of writing.  Hopefully this makes sense.  Even
more, hopefully it is correct.  Comments?  /Roger


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From Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr  Tue Jan  4 14:23:28 2000
From: Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr (Sophie MABILAT)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: SAX ?
Message-ID: <B1C8643B3AB0D21180250000C0B179CD05B6E6@JUPITER>

Could anyone explain me what is SAX ?
Thanks.
S. MABILAT

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From schnitz at overflow.de  Tue Jan  4 14:40:41 2000
From: schnitz at overflow.de (schnitz@overflow.de)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Wish lists for the Holidays
Message-ID: <200001041426.SAA17733@jazz.seychelles.net>

> At 04:31 PM 12/24/99 -0800, Don Park wrote:
> >Atomic XML standards are one page specs each of which defines
> >a single 'power word', a tag name or an attribute name.  An
> >example is 'xmlns' or 'table'.
> >
> >Molecular XML standards are small specs each of which defines
> >a single 'power phrase', a micro-schema involving just a few
> >elements.  An example is 'address' molecule that consists of
> >small number of elements that make up an address.
> >
> >These 'micro-standards' will allow us to create a more coherent
> >XML document standards as well as XML software that can 'learn'
> >to handle new standards by plugging in new power words or phrases.
> 
> This is beautiful!  I'd love to see more projects that assemble smaller
> pieces, rather than trying to create anew within gigantic frameworks.

Fortunately, we won't have to wait too long to see this happen. 
At least for the world of XHTML, this is already happening. It is exactly 
this kind of thinking that led to the Modularization of XHTML. A "molecule" is 
here called "module" consisting of a small, atomic logical entity like a 
single tag or a set of inter-related tags, together with a micro-DTD 
and later with a micro-schema. The "table" module is already there!

Everyone can create new modules, and all the modules can be combined 
like plug and play to create custom document types tailored to the 
specific needs of an individual, community or industry.

Regards,

Sebastian Schnitzenbaumer

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From anujag at roguewave.com  Tue Jan  4 15:20:29 2000
From: anujag at roguewave.com (Anuja Gokhale)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: indexing xml documents..
Message-ID: <9B164B713EE9D211B6DC0090273CEEA915E651@bos1.noblenet.com>

Is there a reasonable tool out there that will index xml documents from a
file system (not the WWW) and allow me to input an xml document (or a
template) or specify a query that will search all the xml documents in the
directory for documents satisfying a particular XQL query ?

thanx
anuja


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan  4 16:14:21 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: "Roger L. Costello"'s message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 09:22:49 -0500"
References: <38720239.481577DF@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <f5byaa5n7ao.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

I believe all Roger's examples are correct.

I would only add that his assertions about what will and will not be
schema-validated in each case assume that no additional information
about schemas and namespaces will be available to the schema-validator 
beyond what is shown in the example instance documents.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Tue Jan  4 16:23:45 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: sax2: cdata, characters and ignorable whitespace
References: <3871EE6B.66DB1DC4@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <m37lhqc4mb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38721E6D.AE88C135@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

David Megginson wrote:

> > void characters (int type, char [] characters, int start, int length);
> >
> > The value of the type parameter is one of
> > the integer constants IGNORABLE_WHITESPACE,
> > CHARACTERS, or CDATA.
> 
> It has two major disadvantages:
> 
> 1. Characters in CDATA really are normal characters in the XML
>    definition, and the fact that they're in a CDATA section is just
>    noise for most apps (and doesn't belong in the core
>    DocumentHandler).
> 
> 2. People who do care about CDATA sections might be unhappy to have
>    two consecutive CDATA sections collapsed into one.

I am not really convinced: 1. Reporting the CDATA int does not 
hurt anybody who is not interested. 2. People also might be unhappy
if they do not know if " or ' was used as quote for attributes. 

OK, I see that each option has several advantages and 
disadvantages. In the end, it's ok to me to take some extra effort if 
I want to write the "same" document back from sax2 events.  

Best regards

Stefan


-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Tue Jan  4 16:43:10 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: SAX2: AttributeList ?!?
Message-ID: <387222F8.D09C6BC0@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Am I the only one having problems with search methods 

    public String getType (String name);
    public String getValue (String name);

for prefixed names in the SAX2 AttributeList? Do they 
only work when prefixes are swithed on in the parser? 
If prefixes are switched on in the parser, are also 
the unprefixed names stored in the attribute list for 
the namespace aware access methods? Or do the
namespace aware search methods cut off the prefix
while searching? Does the attributeList know if 
prefixes are switched on?

To me, the prefix switching option seems
confusing, especially in connection with the
AttributeList. Meanwhile, I would prefer Richard 
Anderson's proposal always delivering the prefix 
in startElement, and add similar support to the 
attributeList. 

In my opinion, when getValue with a single 
parameter is included in the AttributeList, it 
should be a convenience method that defaults 
to the namespace of the element. 

Best regards

Stefan



-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Tue Jan  4 16:48:59 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org> <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <38722573.6A2CBC3A@mecomnet.de>

Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> We don't yet have a concrete syntax for indicating an association
> between "no namespace" and a schema in xsi:schemaLocation.

Wait. Is this really saying that one is looking for a way to encode the
specification, that a symbol, so encoded as to denote that it is in no
namespace, is really to be taken to be identical with another symbol, so
encoded as to denote that it is in another, definite namespace?
Isn't this impossible by definition?

> need to fill this gap.  The locally-scoped element declaration issue
> doesn't arise in this case, or rather both interpretations give the
> same answer.


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan  4 16:57:18 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Unicode confusion
References: <8725685B.0081274E.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <m3aemmc4uj.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38722643.DF68B9F1@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> roddey@us.ibm.com writes:
> 
> > If anything, it should go the other way. Unicode should be the core
> > API, and there should be helper API to allow the use of local code
> > page chars where necessary. Everything should be set up to optimize
> > use of the Unicode API, with local code page use paying the price,
> > since Unicode is the more desireable format.

I took that as referring to 16-bit character codes vs variable width
or 32-bit ones.  And when I take it that way, I agree!  (However, the
notion of a "Unicode API" struck me as strange; the spec has no API.)


> No one's disagreeing with the use of Unicode; we're talking about
> which character encoding we'll use to represent it.  You can represent
> Unicode in variable-width 8-bit or 16-bit encodings or in fixed-width
> 32-bit encodings.
> 
> Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
> one really notices.

... no one really notices "yet"!  Unicode is still rolling out, in the
big picture, and most people now using it have little reason to notice.

One way that UTF-16 (and Unicode) aren't fixed width is that there
can exist "surrogate pairs", where two 16-bit values get combined to
represent a character in a range that can't be represented by 16-bits.
(For those that didn't know that!)   It's the existence of such pairs
which makes some folk argue that a 32-bit character code is the way to
go (and they persuaded most SysV UNIX platforms to put a 32-bit wchar_t
in their ABI, accordingly).

However, another way they aren't fixed width is that "combining"
characters get used.  Things like diacritical marks aren't always
part of the characters.  In my book, the additional existence of
such features means there's no point in a 32-bit character code,
since even apps using a full ISO-10646 encoding (32-bit) still need
to deal with such issues.

- Dave

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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Tue Jan  4 17:13:34 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: Request for Discussion: SAX 1.0 in C++
In-Reply-To: <wh1z8g4u8f.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
References: <roddey@us.ibm.com's message of "Mon, 20 Dec 1999 12:15:22 -0700">
 <3.0.6.32.19991214125527.00940150@mailhost>
 <8725684D.0069ECEC.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000104171300.00b8a610@mailhost>

At 08:40 21/12/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>>>> roddey@us.ibm.com:
>
>> John is absolutely correct. It *must* be wchar_t if its going to be
>> a fixed thing.
>
>Please note that John was advocating std::wstring, rather than
>std::wchar_t*.

Er, sort of.  I _do_ advocate std::wstring, but that's independent of the
point I was making here.  I can live with wchar_t* if the consensus is that
std::wstring is either too slow or too poorly supported.

What I'd find difficult is a typedef SAXChar which could be "unsigned
short", because that would be a real bore to code to.
std::basic_string<SAXChar> would be just as bad.
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan  4 17:44:28 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
In-Reply-To: james anderson's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 17:53:07 +0100"
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org> <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <38722573.6A2CBC3A@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <f5bpuvhn347.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:

> Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> > 
> > [...]
> > 
> > We don't yet have a concrete syntax for indicating an association
> > between "no namespace" and a schema in xsi:schemaLocation.
> 
> Wait. Is this really saying that one is looking for a way to encode the
> specification, that a symbol, so encoded as to denote that it is in no
> namespace, is really to be taken to be identical with another symbol, so
> encoded as to denote that it is in another, definite namespace?
> Isn't this impossible by definition?

I think you've misunderstood my (admittedly obscure) point.  Suppose I
have an XML instance document with no namespace declarations of any
kind governing some or all of the GIs therein.  These GIs are not in
any namespace at all.  The Namespace REC even gives us a way of
EXPLICITLY indicating that names in a certain scope are in no
namespace, namely "xmlns=''".  But I may perfectly well want to
identify a schema to use for schema-validating such an instance
document.  How do I do so?  xsi:schemaLocation uses PAIRS of URIs to
accomplish this, with the first member of each pair being a namespace
URI.  But _ex hypothesi_ the GIs of the elements in question are not
in a namespace, hence there is no namespace URI I can use in
xsi:schemaLocation.  If we stay with the admittedly rather clunky
syntax of xsi:schemaLocation as it stands, I expect we'll nominate
something such as ##noNamespace for this purpose. . .

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From dwshin at nlm.nih.gov  Tue Jan  4 18:21:44 2000
From: dwshin at nlm.nih.gov (Dongwook Shin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: indexing xml documents..
References: <9B164B713EE9D211B6DC0090273CEEA915E651@bos1.noblenet.com>
Message-ID: <38723BDB.4AEFE84A@nlm.nih.gov>

Anuja:

There are a couple of  tools that index XML documents and serves
XQL queries.

1. XML Query Engine (http://www.fatdog.com)
    It creates in-memory indexes for XML documents and serves XQL queries.
    Query evaluation is reasonably fast for small to medium sized documents.

2. GMD-IPSI XQL Engine (http://xml.darmstadt.gmd.de/xql/)
    It creates PDOM for XML documents and evaluates XQL queries.
    I know a site that serves a collection of XML documents with this
    engine, but is not satisfied with the querying performance.

3. My tool, XRS (http://dlb2.nlm.nih.gov/~dwshin/xrs.html) creates
   inverted index into UNIX files and serves my own queries fast.
   But it does not support XQL queries yet.

Dongwook

Anuja Gokhale wrote:

> Is there a reasonable tool out there that will index xml documents from a
> file system (not the WWW) and allow me to input an xml document (or a
> template) or specify a query that will search all the xml documents in the
> directory for documents satisfying a particular XQL query ?
>
> thanx
> anuja
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Tue Jan  4 18:23:31 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <14430.46481.974707.922192@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>

At 18:02 20/12/99 -0500, David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
   :
>  public void startElement (String ns, String name, 
>                            AttributeList atts)
>    throws SAXException;
   :

I appreciate this is probably a done deal by now, but I prefer:

class QName {
public:
    wstring ns () const;           // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
    wstring name () const;         // p
    wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
    wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p

    bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
                                   // ns & name both equal
private:
    // Probably just a simple pointer to your internal data structures
};

void startElement (const QName &name, const AttributeList &atts)
throws SAXException;

You can also provide a specialisation for class std::less<QName>, and then
QNames become directly usable with the STL set/map classes.

Hiding the internals lets you use some cleverer comparison techniques, too,
so that, e.g.

    if (qn1 == qn2) ...

can happen faster than doing the various string comparisons.

N.B. the code above is phrased assuming the use of wstring for string data,
because I prefer it, but could readily be adapted to raw wchar_t*, or
SAXChar, or whatever comes out of the other debate)

-- 
Cheers,
John

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Tue Jan  4 18:21:28 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:18:59 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB1B@RED-MSG-08>

Henry Thompson correctly points out that I mistakenly described the
treatement of unqualified elements and namespaces to be a resolved issue. 

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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Tue Jan  4 18:40:58 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: unicode confusion
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000104133413.27499A-100000@isis>

<snip/> 
> Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
> one really notices.

Err... David, I thought Java used UTF-8, actually a version slightly
different from the "typical" version that expresses:
Characters in the range  \u0001 to \u007F in one byte: 0[bits 0-6]
Characters in the range  \u0080 to \u07FF and \u0000 in two bytes:
110[bits 7 -10]  10[bits 0-6]
Characters in the range  \u0800 to \uFFFF in three bytes: 1110[bits 12-15] 
10[bits 6-11] 10[bits 0-5]

(what's different from typical is that NULL is in two bytes, so there's no 
embedded nulls in java vm strings)
....
However, It has been quite a while since the last time I looked... Have
this changed in latest versions?

Best,
Fabio

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.		        Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: 	      "Abandon normal instruments"                                


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From tbray at textuality.com  Tue Jan  4 19:07:04 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: unicode confusion
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000104110722.01456bc0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 01:37 PM 1/4/00 -0500, Fabio Arciniegas A. wrote:
><snip/> 
>> Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
>> one really notices.
>
>Err... David, I thought Java used UTF-8, actually a version slightly
>different from the "typical" version that expresses:

Java has come with a succession of library classes that advertised
UTF-8 support; the first few iterations were so hopelessly broken that I 
gave up on them, but I've been told that recent versions are verging
on usable.

What David was saying is that in Java, the basic "char" data type
is 16 bits, and thus is naturally used to hold UTF-16-encoded text.  I
have no idea if the library classes do the right things with UTF-16
surrogate pairs either in String or char[] contexts, but my experience 
with String processing in Java is that it's often best just to ignore
those libraries anyhow and roll your own. -Tim

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From dpotter at mitre.org  Tue Jan  4 19:15:34 2000
From: dpotter at mitre.org (Daniel Potter)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: ANN: XML Schema Regular Expression Parser
Message-ID: <38724743.98E92111@mitre.org>

A working model of a regular expression parser designed to parse and
match strings based on the current XML Schema pattern definition is now
available at <http://www.xfront.org/xml-schema/>.  This is a Java applet
(Java 1.1) and will require a Java enabled browser.  It is still
currently a test, meaning that there are still bugs which have yet to be
fixed or even found.

Keep in mind the differences between regular expressions used in Perl
and regular expressions used to specify patterns in the XML Schema spec!
For example, the non-greedy operators aren't used (*?, +?);
backreferencing (\1) is unavailable, and others.

However, one known lacking feature is the \p{xx} forms.  Although the
parser will recognize \p (or \P) it will ignore it and move on, causing
the {xx} after it to be parsed, interpretting it as an {m,n} form.  This
in most cases will cause an error.

The source code is currently not available for general download, but
anyone interested can e-mail me (<mailto:dpotter@mitre.org>).

Try it out and see what you think!  Please send me any bugs that you
discover.  Thanks.

- Dan Potter


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From ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com  Tue Jan  4 19:19:27 2000
From: ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com (ssdhanoa@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: XML4C++ 3.0.1 & XML Lightweight Extractor
Message-ID: <8725685C.006A1C04.00@d53mta02h.boulder.ibm.com>



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----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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---------------------------------------------------------
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From pandeng at telepath.com  Tue Jan  4 19:25:43 2000
From: pandeng at telepath.com (Steve Schafer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: unicode confusion
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000104133413.27499A-100000@isis>
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000104133413.27499A-100000@isis>
Message-ID: <66i47ss2m9a0hsfd6f9e2j49bibkd1vdr2@4ax.com>

On Tue, 4 Jan 2000 13:37:45 -0500 (GMT+5), "Fabio Arciniegas A."
<l-arcini@uniandes.edu.co> wrote:

>Err... David, I thought Java used UTF-8, actually a version slightly
>different from the "typical" version that expresses:
>Characters in the range  \u0001 to \u007F in one byte: 0[bits 0-6]
>Characters in the range  \u0080 to \u07FF and \u0000 in two bytes:
>110[bits 7 -10]  10[bits 0-6]
>Characters in the range  \u0800 to \uFFFF in three bytes: 1110[bits 12-15] 
>10[bits 6-11] 10[bits 0-5]

I think he's talking about the _internal_ character format, which is
indeed UTF-16 (without the surrogates).

-Steve Schafer


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From housel at home.com  Tue Jan  4 20:02:47 2000
From: housel at home.com (Peter S. Housel)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: Unicode confusion
References: <8725685B.0081274E.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com> <m3aemmc4uj.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <00c601bf56ee$a076ab00$55f9989d@nb.conexant.com>

> No one's disagreeing with the use of Unicode; we're talking about
> which character encoding we'll use to represent it.  You can represent
> Unicode in variable-width 8-bit or 16-bit encodings or in fixed-width
> 32-bit encodings.

My reading of the Unicode 2.x standard is that the above isn't strictly
correct.  It is correct if you change "Unicode" to "the ISO 10646 Universal
Character Set" though.

> Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
> one really notices.

It seems to me that Java uses Unicode, which maintains the semantics that 16
bits equals one character.  Surrogates are characters in Unicode, whereas
those code points are not legal UCS characters, but only artifacts of the
UTF-16 encoding.

Unicode looks like UTF-16, but the semantics are slightly different.  So a
file using UTF-16 encoding containing a single "astral plane" character of
the UCS would be interpreted by Unicode as a file containing *two* surrogate
characters.  (I think it's a strange tack to take, but it seems fairly clear
to me that this was their position as of Unicode 2.x.  I haven't looked at
3.0 yet, so things may have changed since then.)

The XML character set is the UCS, not Unicode.

Cheers,
-Peter-    housel@acm.org



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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Tue Jan  4 20:06:37 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org> <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <38722573.6A2CBC3A@mecomnet.de> <f5bpuvhn347.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3872540A.EF267665@mecomnet.de>

Henry S. Thompson wrote:
> 
> james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:
> 
> >
> > Wait. Is this really saying that one is looking for a way to encode the
> > specification, that a symbol, so encoded as to denote that it is in no
> > namespace, is really to be taken to be identical with another symbol, so
> > encoded as to denote that it is in another, definite namespace?
> > Isn't this impossible by definition?
> 
> I think you've misunderstood my (admittedly obscure) point.

No, I think that I understood you. I still understand you. The point is not at
all obscure. It turns out to be one of the disagreeable aspects of the
namespace spec should one try to implement a processor with a complete model
for names.

I could have either followed the spec strictly and left such names uninterned,
or I could have interned them in some "special" namespace. Given the
premonition, that situations such this would be bound to arise, I opted for
the second. As the spec says little about how names are to be processed, one
might say that I had little to go on. Much as you predict, I did what i
suppose was intended but I would note that this option is, strictly speaking,
in contradiction with the little which spec does say. Should it be what the
spec intends, then the wording should be appropriately revised to recognize
existance of a specially designated default namespace.

> Suppose I
> have an XML instance document with no namespace declarations of any
> kind governing some or all of the GIs therein.  These GIs are not in
> any namespace at all.  The Namespace REC even gives us a way of
> EXPLICITLY indicating that names in a certain scope are in no
> namespace, namely "xmlns=''".  But I may perfectly well want to
> identify a schema to use for schema-validating such an instance
> document.  How do I do so?

Whatever notational tricks you have up your sleve, the question remains, how
do you take these names which are "not in any namespace at all" and postfacto
put them in one? I mean, if they're not in one, how do you find them to
operate on them?

>  xsi:schemaLocation uses PAIRS of URIs to
> accomplish this, with the first member of each pair being a namespace
> URI.  But _ex hypothesi_ the GIs of the elements in question are not
> in a namespace, hence there is no namespace URI I can use in
> xsi:schemaLocation.  If we stay with the admittedly rather clunky
> syntax of xsi:schemaLocation as it stands, I expect we'll nominate
> something such as ##noNamespace for this purpose. . .

Thus the notion of the specially designated namespace. Sneaking it in the back
door is a bad idea.


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan  4 20:57:36 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: locally scoped element decls and namespaces
In-Reply-To: james anderson's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 21:11:54 +0100"
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org> <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <38722573.6A2CBC3A@mecomnet.de> <f5bpuvhn347.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3872540A.EF267665@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <f5bd7rhmu6b.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

There's an implication of your approach which I think I want to
disagree with, namely that two documents each with no namespace
declarations at all ipso facto put their GIs in the SAME, default
[your word] namespace.  I don't read the namespace REC as allowing
this inference.  It says they are in no namespace, and I think we
should respect that.  There's nothing in what I wrote (or I didn't
intend there to be) which licenses the inference that by
'##noNamespace' I mean to provide a namespace URI for the universal
default namespace -- I quite specifically do NOT mean that, but rather 
to shoehorn into the xsi:schemaLocation syntax a way of saying that
the schema which provides constraints for the names in this document
which are in no namespace can be found . . .

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Tue Jan  4 22:48:44 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: Xpath and DOM 
In-Reply-To: <199912262110.OAA02868@localhost.localdomain>
References: Your message of "Fri, 17 Dec 1999 09:50:27 GMT."             <000901bf4874$257e3ea0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk> 
Message-ID: <200001042242.OAA14704@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 26 Dec 99, at 14:10, uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:

> > Hmm, I'd suggest:
> > 
> > interface QueryFactory {
> > 
> >   DocumentQuery getDocumentQuery(String queryType);
> > }
> > 
> > And have the query type, "xpath" or "xsql" passed in to the 
> > factory method. Solves the plugging in of new query types, and 
> > avoids having to prepend the query string with "xpath:" or whatever.
> 
> This is a _very_ astute idea, and a much more sensible way to partition the 
> problem-spaces.
> 
> Mrs. Wood and co., are you listening?

Yes, this seems like a good idea to discuss. I'll raise it. 

BTW, it does help to discuss these things on the www-
dom@w3.org mailing list as well; that way everyone who's 
interested in the DOM can take part (I know some people who 
aren't subscribed to xml-dev because of the volume of email, but 
are subscribed to www-dom@w3.org).

thanks,

Lauren

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From rhanson at blast.net  Tue Jan  4 23:04:21 2000
From: rhanson at blast.net (Robert Hanson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: Help needed with the XPointer spec
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB0A@RED-MSG-08> <38710A38.D00352B8@mitre.org> <f5bzoumngqm.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <38722573.6A2CBC3A@mecomnet.de> <f5bpuvhn347.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <3872540A.EF267665@mecomnet.de> <f5bd7rhmu6b.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <03bb01bf5706$ef05d3a0$0cb919ce@INTERNETDEPT>

I ran across a definition in the XPointer spec which seems a little odd to
me...

<definition term="character-point">
[Definition:] When the container node of a point is of a node type that cannot
have child nodes, then the index is an index into the characters of the
string-value of the node; such a point is called a character-point.
</definition>

And before this it states the definition of a "node-point".  But my question
is, if a node-point is "When the container node of a point is of a node type
that can have child nodes", and a character-point is "When the container node
of a point is of a node type that cannot have child nodes", then what about
characters in a node that CAN have child nodes?  It seems that by definition
that this is not defined.

Am I just being to picky about the given definition?

...And could someone give me an example of an XPointer that would fall after
the "H" in this XML instance below?  And another which would fall after the
first "bar" element, and before the second?

<foo>
  Hello<bar>Goodbye</bar><bar>Stuff</bar>
</foo>

Thanks,
  Robert


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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan  4 23:45:01 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000"
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
Message-ID: <m33dsdcysb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:

> I appreciate this is probably a done deal by now, but I prefer:
> 
> class QName {
> public:
>     wstring ns () const;           // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
>     wstring name () const;         // p
>     wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
>     wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
> 
>     bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
>                                    // ns & name both equal
> private:
>     // Probably just a simple pointer to your internal data structures
> };

My biggest problem with this (and its Java equivalent) is figuring out 
how to handle equality: are two QNames with the same URI part and same 
local part equal?  What if the prefix is different?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tmmet at hotmail.com  Wed Jan  5 02:46:51 2000
From: tmmet at hotmail.com (tmmet tvp)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: Filter by keyword.....
Message-ID: <20000105024616.44627.qmail@hotmail.com>

Hi,
Can anyone help me out...
My XML file is as follows...
<ROOT>
  <CHAPTER Id = 1>
    <SUBCHAPTER Title= "God know">
     </SUBCHAPTER>
  </CHAPTER>
<CHAPTER Id = 2>
</CHAPTER>

<CHAPTER Id = 3>
    <SUBCHAPTER Title= "Who is that">
     </SUBCHAPTER>
  </CHAPTER>
</ROOT>

In my edit control,if I type/enter,"God",
I should be able to filter/get the node..That is,
<CHAPTER Id = 1>
    <SUBCHAPTER Title= "God know">
     </SUBCHAPTER>
  </CHAPTER>


To filter by exact value,we use,
CHAPTER[SUBCHAPTER/@Title = "God knows"]
But,how can i do this for keyword...How do I specify in my key condition...
Any ideas/suggestions will be greatly helpful to me...
Thanks in advance.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From fscheng at netzero.net  Wed Jan  5 05:04:28 2000
From: fscheng at netzero.net (Franklin Cheng)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
References: <916BA3451A99D2118FCC0090272ABD2F031073C9@CAXIXI>
Message-ID: <000f01bf573a$58a96780$e2eff5d1@pennycall.com>

unsubscribe

__________________________________________
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Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
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From d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 10:42:42 2000
From: d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk (ic\ddsb/d.d.barnes)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: using xt in a webpage
Message-ID: <3873200D.FE8D0EE5@ic.ac.uk>

Hello and Happy New Year,

Could anyone point-me-to-a/send-me-some html code that uses xt in some
JAVA script to transform a given xml file with a given xsl file?

I would be exceedingly grateful.

Thanks in advance,

David

PS if not xt then perhaps another java-based xslt-er?


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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Wed Jan  5 10:51:55 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:00 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <m33dsdcysb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <000601bf576a$dc1cfb60$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

> My biggest problem with this (and its Java equivalent) is figuring out 
> how to handle equality: are two QNames with the same URI part and same 
> local part equal?  What if the prefix is different?

I take it that its the latter question which is the thorny one:

If the URI and the local part are the same, then two QNames are 
identical.

If the prefix is different (but the URI is the same) then they 
should still be equal. The prefix is a means to point to a URI.
The URIs are identical, therefore the QNames should be the 
same. The prefix is there to cope with the fact that a URI can 
contain characters illegal in a Name, and nothing more - its 
a pointer. 

If I'm wrong, and they're not equal in the latter case, then 
its highly counter-intuitive. And it also devalues the idea 
of having URIs in the first place. 

If the prefix has meaning, then let it denote the namespace completely, 
without reference to a URI. If its a pointer then it should be 
dereferenced and have no intrinsic value.

What would be the value in doing the following?:

<Person xmlns:foo="http://www.myorg.com"
   xmlns:bar="http://www.myorg.com">
	<foo:email>me@myorg.com</foo:email>
	<bar:name>me</bar:name>
</Person> 

In terms of SAX2, reporting the prefix is obviously useful for 
round-trip processing.

L.



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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 11:22:24 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <m33dsdcysb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000">
 <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost>

At 16:28 04/01/00 -0500, David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
>John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
>
>> class QName {
>> public:
>>     wstring ns () const;           // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
>>     wstring name () const;         // p
>>     wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
>>     wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
>> 
>>     bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
>>                                    // ns & name both equal
>> private:
>>     // Probably just a simple pointer to your internal data structures
>> };
>
>My biggest problem with this (and its Java equivalent) is figuring out 
>how to handle equality: are two QNames with the same URI part and same 
>local part equal?  What if the prefix is different?

I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.  The QNames are equal if ns() and
name() both match.  The prefix is irrelevant.  This is what I suggested in
my definition of the equality operator above.

    if (qn1 == qn2) ...

just does the right thing.  If some application really wants to compare the
prefixed name, it can always write:

    if (qn1.prefixedName () == qn2.prefixedName ()) ...

I'm obviously missing something, since you and other knowledgable people
don't regard this as self evidently obvious -- can you explain the problem
to me, please?
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Wed Jan  5 11:31:18 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost> <m33dsdcysb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38732CCA.8FD84180@mecomnet.de>

what if the application gets to specify the implementation for EQ on names?
eg., by choosing the implementation for the name class. perhaps indirectly by
virtue of the setting for the namespace-support property.

where namespaces are to be observed, then the prefix is immaterial. where they
are not to be observed, then the url is immaterial.

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
> 
> > I appreciate this is probably a done deal by now, but I prefer:
> >
> > class QName {
> > public:
> >     wstring ns () const;           // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
> >     wstring name () const;         // p
> >     wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
> >     wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
> >
> >     bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
> >                                    // ns & name both equal
> > private:
> >     // Probably just a simple pointer to your internal data structures
> > };
> 
> My biggest problem with this (and its Java equivalent) is figuring out
> how to handle equality: are two QNames with the same URI part and same
> local part equal?  What if the prefix is different?
> 
> All the best,
> 
> David
> 
> --
> David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
>            http://www.megginson.com/
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 11:51:46 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2: Parser interface
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751B7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Miles Sabin writes:
> > [snip: query about Parser.setLocale()]
>
> Error reporting.

OK, I've slept on this and, although I can see there's a case
to be made for it, I'm not convinced.

Many software modules need to do error reporting of some sort
or another. Typically they'll simply use the platform default
Locale for localization rather than allowing it to be
configurable. That's the right thing to do, because error 
messages are normally delivered locally, and the rare cases
where they're not aren't enough to justify adding setLocale()
methods to an interface (cp. pretty much all the standard
java.*.* classes, eg. java.util.HashMap).

I'm not convinced that an XML parser is special in this
respect, so I don't think org.xml.sax.Parser should have this
method. For the most part error messages will be delivered
locally, so the platform default Locale is fine. And in the
cases where error messages are delivered non-locally (ie.
an XML parser as part of a web application which delivers
errors to a remote user) the non-local Locale probably won't
be available _anyway_ ... we might have a character encoding
or language preference (via HTTP's Accept-Charset: and Accept-
Language:) but there's no defined mapping from those 
preferences to a Locale. Worse still, there's no defined
mapping from a Locale to a preferred character encoding, so
a configured Locale wouldn't help all that much anyway.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From davidc at nag.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 13:42:12 2000
From: davidc at nag.co.uk (David Carlisle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
Message-ID: <200001051337.NAA19504@nag.co.uk>


maybe this is a stupid question, but _why_ does
 schemaLocation
take two URI ?

What is the point of the first one giving a namespace? It seems to be
one source of the complication, and currently I don't see how
it can be used.

After namespace processing the names in both the schema and the
document are all fully expanded to (uri,local-name) pairs, so it would
seem that the only question was whether these pairs matched and so I don't
see how the namespace URI in schemaLocation may be used. Having to have
a URI makes it difficult to refer to the unnamespaced case.

> A Schema-validating parser will use the URI to fetch the schema
> document, and then will verify that the targetNamespace value matches
> the namespace in schemaLocation.

Is this the _only_ use of the first URI, to generate an error if it is
incorrect?

David


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From pmalone2 at csc.com  Wed Jan  5 14:12:02 2000
From: pmalone2 at csc.com (pmalone2@csc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
Message-ID: <8525685D.004DF0DF.00@csc.com>



 Gentlemen,
       I've been following this list for about two months now and can safely say
that I am a "beginner" at designing XML anythings. If I'm asking too basic a
question please don't hesitate to tell me, or steer me to someplace else better
suited <g>.
       My situation is this...the company that I work for wants a project done
in XML, it is not overly complicated, but it poses some problems for me. 1) They
want this project to be a "learning" project and for me to master XML (no
pressure!) so I can do more complex projects. 2) No one here knows anymore XML
than I do (which isn't alot) and nothing they have worked on has anything at all
to do with the way this project has to work.
       Now, at this point I don't have much in the way of software for working
with XML although I have downloaded "ALOT" of demos that I thought would help.
But alas, most of them won't do the trick. Especially since I have to create
this project for the government and it will be residing on a Netscape Enterprise
Server.
        I thought that it might be a big help to me if I could get a "complete"
set of XML tools with step by step instructions to walk me through some examples
of using XML from start to finish....maybe using a database (which would work
well for my first project), or something else. To date I've looked at
"Bluestones" Visual XML, and where that is a nice looking bit of fluff with a
great Java interface, it seems to require too much proprietary software (mainly
it's bluestone server) for me to use comfortably, and a few pieces of software
that they don't even make to run it (i.e. Xtrans). So, I look to Oracle 8i, and
it seems to have everything in it I need....but will it work well with Netscape
Enterprise Server???? I'm prepared to get this software (my company now uses
Oracle 7), but I need to make sure there are no exteme minuses for using this on
the Enterprise Server.
       If Oracle isn't the answer...any suggestions???
       I've tried getting books on XML, but most seem to base their examples on
using the Microsoft software that uses "data islands" which evidently I can't
use since I"m gonna be using the Enterprise Server......I have had Zero luck in
finding ANY helpful Developers books that give me the information I need. Any
suggestions here???? There do appear to be two books being published soon on
using XML with the Enterprise Server (I saw them on Amazon.com) but they aren't
available yet.
       Any suggestions would be helpful at this time.....and if it isn't a
problem, in a future message, lay out what I'm trying to do (especially if
Oracle or Bluestone isn't what I want) and get some suggestions.
           Thanks!!!!   Pete Malone



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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 14:25:13 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: David Carlisle's message of "Wed, 5 Jan 2000 13:37:37 GMT"
References: <200001051337.NAA19504@nag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <f5byaa438ai.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

David Carlisle <davidc@nag.co.uk> writes:

> maybe this is a stupid question, but _why_ does
>  schemaLocation
> take two URI ?
> 
> What is the point of the first one giving a namespace? It seems to be
> one source of the complication, and currently I don't see how
> it can be used.

A single document may contain names from more than one namespace. So
although basically you're right, the pairing is primarily to provide a
minimal sanity-check that you're getting the schema you think you are,
this becomes more useful when you have several namespaces in your
document.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 14:28:39 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
References: <8525685D.004DF0DF.00@csc.com>
Message-ID: <387354F0.F4CB077C@algx.net>

pmalone2@csc.com wrote:
> 
>  Gentlemen,
>        I've been following this list for about two months now and can safely say
> that I am a "beginner" at designing XML anythings. If I'm asking too basic a
> question please don't hesitate to tell me, or steer me to someplace else better
> suited <g>.
>        My situation is this...the company that I work for wants a project done
> in XML, it is not overly complicated, but it poses some problems for me. 1) They
> want this project to be a "learning" project and for me to master XML (no
> pressure!) so I can do more complex projects. 2) No one here knows anymore XML
> than I do (which isn't alot) and nothing they have worked on has anything at all
> to do with the way this project has to work.
>        Now, at this point I don't have much in the way of software for working
> with XML although I have downloaded "ALOT" of demos that I thought would help.
> But alas, most of them won't do the trick. Especially since I have to create
> this project for the government and it will be residing on a Netscape Enterprise
> Server.
>         I thought that it might be a big help to me if I could get a "complete"
> set of XML tools with step by step instructions to walk me through some examples
> of using XML from start to finish....maybe using a database (which would work
> well for my first project), or something else. To date I've looked at
> "Bluestones" Visual XML, and where that is a nice looking bit of fluff with a
> great Java interface, it seems to require too much proprietary software (mainly
> it's bluestone server) for me to use comfortably, and a few pieces of software
> that they don't even make to run it (i.e. Xtrans). So, I look to Oracle 8i, and
> it seems to have everything in it I need....but will it work well with Netscape
> Enterprise Server???? I'm prepared to get this software (my company now uses
> Oracle 7), but I need to make sure there are no exteme minuses for using this on
> the Enterprise Server.

Are you tryint to go with a pure XML solution, or are you looking at
using XML from, for example, a Java application?  This makes a big
difference.  I've been using Oracle for about 3 years now, and think as
a database they are absolutely the best.  As for using their Java and/or
XML products, I'm not such a big fan.  I would recommend more of a
"publishing framework" for what it sounds like you are doing, and of
course in that vein would recommend something I work on (*grin*), i.e.
Apache Cocoon.  Cocoon lets you do some very nice things with XML, has a
SQLProcessor (as well as a new LDAPProcessor and some other nice hooks,
like XSP coming along).  It also can let you learn, as using it with
static XML/XSL is a no-brainer, but as you get more comfortable with SAX
and DOM you can really jump right in.  

As for working with NES, you will almost certainly have to have OAS
(Oracle App Server, sometimes called Oracle Web Server) to build a solid
n-tier environment.  NES does _not_ happily talk directly to Oracle, as
it has no facility to.  That's where a servlet engine/code comes into
play (and we're back to Cocoon again).

>        If Oracle isn't the answer...any suggestions???
>        I've tried getting books on XML, but most seem to base their examples on
> using the Microsoft software that uses "data islands" which evidently I can't
> use since I"m gonna be using the Enterprise Server......I have had Zero luck in
> finding ANY helpful Developers books that give me the information I need. Any
> suggestions here???? There do appear to be two books being published soon on
> using XML with the Enterprise Server (I saw them on Amazon.com) but they aren't
> available yet.

Well, you can buy mine when it comes out ;-)  It's more on the Java side
of things though, so again I'm not sure if that's what you are looking
for.

-Brett

>        Any suggestions would be helpful at this time.....and if it isn't a
> problem, in a future message, lay out what I'm trying to do (especially if
> Oracle or Bluestone isn't what I want) and get some suggestions.
>            Thanks!!!!   Pete Malone
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Wed Jan  5 14:33:20 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: Namespaces and Validating XML Parsers Question
References: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AB05@RED-MSG-08>
Message-ID: <38735771.DFD22886@mecomnet.de>

The question and the answer address separable issues. One is, as

Andrew Layman wrote:
> 
> The namespaces specification does not provide any particular means to
> associate a namespace with any defining or collateral documents (e.g.
> schemas).

The other, in the

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bruce D. Nilo [mailto:bruce@nilo.com]
> 
is

>  how a validating parser knows how to associate an element or
> attribute that is in a specific namespace with the elements and
> attributes of either an external or internal DTD reference.

Which is not that of how to "associate a schema with a namespace", but that of
how to associate names in a known DTD with namespaces specified in a known
document. They are often conflated. The work on schemas may eventually lead to
their simultaneous solution. This does not mean that they are the same.

The namespace REC specifies the first issue as outside of its scope and
"punts" on the second.


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From davidc at nag.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 14:47:00 2000
From: davidc at nag.co.uk (David Carlisle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: <f5byaa438ai.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> (ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk)
References: <200001051337.NAA19504@nag.co.uk> <f5byaa438ai.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200001051442.OAA19572@nag.co.uk>


> A single document may contain names from more than one namespace.

yes of course.

> the pairing is primarily to provide a
> minimal sanity-check that you're getting the schema you think you are,

Hmm not convinced:-) I fear this has all the hallmarks of TeX's \outer:
an error catching device that has generated orders of magnitude
more errors than it ever caught.

If you didn't have to specify the namespace URI again here then you
could naturally specify schema on elements from the null namespace
just by pointing to a schema which defined rules for elements not in a
namespace. Because you do have to specify the namespace then you can't
do that without inventing some magic syntax, and also you have to enter
the (possibly long) namespace URI of the elements in the document twice
once for the namespace declaration and once for this error check.
I would guess that mostly a failure of this error check would be due to
mistyping the URI rather than _trying_ to access a schema for the wrong
namespace.

David

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan  5 15:13:53 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: John Aldridge's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:21:51 +0000"
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000"> <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost> <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost>
Message-ID: <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:

> I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.  The QNames are equal if ns() and
> name() both match.  The prefix is irrelevant.  This is what I suggested in
> my definition of the equality operator above.
> 
>     if (qn1 == qn2) ...
> 
> just does the right thing.  If some application really wants to compare the
> prefixed name, it can always write:
> 
>     if (qn1.prefixedName () == qn2.prefixedName ()) ...
> 
> I'm obviously missing something, since you and other knowledgable people
> don't regard this as self evidently obvious -- can you explain the problem
> to me, please?

In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
example.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Wed Jan  5 15:11:19 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
In-Reply-To: <8525685D.004DF0DF.00@csc.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001050953440.26656-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>


On Wed, 5 Jan 2000 pmalone2@csc.com wrote:

>        My situation is this...the company that I work for wants a project done
> in XML, it is not overly complicated, but it poses some problems for me. 1) They
>        If Oracle isn't the answer...any suggestions???

A great deal of the other possible suggestions has to do with the kind and
amounts of data you are working with also.  I floated something of this to
the list a few months back (cf. archives October under subject: XML/Oracle
and consulting), and had some enlightening repsonses to which I hope to do
justice and add info from subsequent experience.

The most interesting suggestion was for an ODBS from RMIT called
Structured Information Manager (SIM).  Again, not knowing your
requirements, it's hard to be sure this hits the mark, but I noted your
concern for proprietary limitations.  In our project, archive and
source-to-client requisites of our grant necessitate non-proprietary
formats.  SIM archives native SGML/XML, and allows multiple access shemas
via its logical views structure.  Several reports on performance give it
the edge over other options, including those you're considering.  If
you're into Z39.50, it's support in SIM is native, as is full unicode in
the recent release.  XTech's XLink tool apparently works with it based on
early reports I've heard.  For myself, I'm litterally _just_ beginning to
look into SIM, so for anything further on it, see the archives or
http://www.rmit.com.

Also as to Oracle 8i:

pmalone2@csc.com wrote:  
<snip>
As for working with NES, you will almost certainly have to have OAS
(Oracle App Server, sometimes called Oracle Web Server) to build a solid
n-tier environment.  NES does _not_ happily talk directly to Oracle, as
it has no facility to.  That's where a servlet engine/code comes into
play (and we're back to Cocoon again).
</snip>

I would definitely agree on this.  I think it was OAS 2.6 that our DBA was
was struggling with on our Enterprise 250, with Solaris 2.7.  Stonebridge
consulting noted that this OAS is "formally" not compatible with 2.7,
though after some work-arounds, it functions.  Our DBA also feels the the
Oracle JVM is a severe performance impediment . . . but I personally think
that's because he's not gotten XML religion yet <g />-- he's e-commerce,
and we're heavily text-based with unbounded heirarchies.  THus far, all
we've worked with are fairly shallow heirarchies, however, and he's just
using a sort of table-representing/pointing to-another-tree table or STAR
system.

Again, we're only just beginning to play with this as well, so we've not
really deployed the technet XML/XSL tools from Oracle yet.  Steve Muench's
presentation at XML '99 was pretty convincing, however, and i'm sure he
will have something to say on all this.

good luck, however, in the quest


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe




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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Wed Jan  5 15:17:10 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
In-Reply-To: <387354F0.F4CB077C@algx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001051014540.26656-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>

Correction:

SIM URI:

http://www.mds.rmit.edu.au/ 


sorry,

jr


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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Wed Jan  5 15:47:15 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <000b01bf5794$1e83e580$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

> In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> example.

In this instance though your level of surprise is going to relate 
to how familiar you are with the Namespaces spec. After reading 
it I'd be surprised if two QNames with the same URIs and same local 
parts aren't the considered equal.

The problem though boils down to how often, in reality, XML instances 
will have the same Namespace declared twice, with different prefixes.

I'd have thought this would be pretty unlikely. In a data interchange 
context standardising prefixes for Namespaces would mitigate this 
'problem' and would probably have beneficial side-effects as well.

In a document authoring context I can't imagine using the same 
Namespace with two prefixes, except by accident. Readibility 
(of the XML) is reduced with Namespaces anyway, sprinkling additional 
prefixes around makes this worse.

2-penneth worth.

L.

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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 16:06:38 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
References: <8525685D.004DF0DF.00@csc.com>
Message-ID: <007901bf5797$914c05e0$de4c340c@odi.com>


Hi Pete,

I would be a very poor Object Design employee if I didn't mention that you
should at least look at Object Design's Excelon.

http://www.objectdesign.com/excelon/main.htm

It's very inexpensive compared to Oracle (although I don't know what kind of
price cuts they've just made), and very fast.

>         I thought that it might be a big help to me if I could get a
"complete"set of XML tools with step by step instructions to walk me through
some examples of using XML from start to finish

Excelon is a complete environment, from an editing tool to a queryable data
repository. There is also an on line tutorial available, and it's very easy
to use.

> "Bluestones" Visual XML, and where that is a nice looking bit of fluff
with a great Java interface, it seems to require too much proprietary
software (mainly it's bluestone server) for me to use comfortably,

Excelon has Java, c++, COM, Corba and http interfaces available.  (EJB
support will be here soon)
However, it does use ObjectStore, an ODBMS, but objectstore is transparent
to the developer, and you code to standards, not the proprietary software.
(Although, ObjectStore supports ODMG standards)

Remember, I am an employee of Object Design, so be skeptical of my claims,
but please download the product for free and check it out yourself.

Alan Santos
Senior Applications Engineer
Object Design, Inc


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From cox_andy at bah.com  Wed Jan  5 16:34:12 2000
From: cox_andy at bah.com (Cox Andy)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <000b01bf5794$1e83e580$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <002501bf579b$0630c4b0$20aa509c@bah.com>

The semantics of operator==() and equals() should match the concept that the
class represents.

If I understand the Namespaces spec [1] correctly, an identical URI (defined
in the spec as "exactly the same character-for-character") and an identical
local part imply an identical QName. According to the spec, "the prefix
functions only as a placeholder for a namespace name." [2]

The URI is the key. Even in the intro, the authors emphasize that the XML
version of namespaces "is not, mathematically speaking, a set."

One man's opinion...

Andy


[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-qualnames

| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
| Leigh Dodds
| Sent: Wednesday, 05 January 2000 10:47 AM
| To: David Megginson
| Cc: xml-dev
| Subject: RE: SAX2 Namespace Support
|
|
| > In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
| > behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
| > of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
| > example.
|
| In this instance though your level of surprise is going to relate
| to how familiar you are with the Namespaces spec. After reading
| it I'd be surprised if two QNames with the same URIs and same local
| parts aren't the considered equal.
|
| The problem though boils down to how often, in reality, XML instances
| will have the same Namespace declared twice, with different prefixes.
|
| I'd have thought this would be pretty unlikely. In a data interchange
| context standardising prefixes for Namespaces would mitigate this
| 'problem' and would probably have beneficial side-effects as well.
|
| In a document authoring context I can't imagine using the same
| Namespace with two prefixes, except by accident. Readibility
| (of the XML) is reduced with Namespaces anyway, sprinkling additional
| prefixes around makes this worse.
|
| 2-penneth worth.
|
| L.
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
| CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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| following message;
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|
|


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From donpark at docuverse.com  Wed Jan  5 17:06:18 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <002501bf579b$0630c4b0$20aa509c@bah.com>
Message-ID: <000101bf579f$67f9bd60$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

>If I understand the Namespaces spec [1] correctly, an 
>identical URI (defined in the spec as "exactly the same
>character-for-character") and an identical local part
>imply an identical QName. According to the spec, "the prefix
>functions only as a placeholder for a namespace name." [2]

The way I read it, QName is just prefix and local part.
Since prefix can map to anything namespace at anytime,
comparing QName doesn't tell you much.  To complicate
the matter, there is also the element name to consider
for unqualified attribute names.

Hmm, Yikes.com is taken...

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Wed Jan  5 17:09:52 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle
References: <8525685D.004DF0DF.00@csc.com>
Message-ID: <009d01bf579f$3c0fd3b0$0d7b1990@us.oracle.com>

I'm familiar with lots of web servers and servlet
engines, but not specifically the NES. If it can
be used together with a Servlet Engine, then
you're in business for getting it to talk seamlessly
with Oracle.

If you want to do your XML processing *inside*
the database running in the same memory address
space where your data lives, then Oracle8i
let's you do this in *either* Java or PL/SQL
or C or C++ with strongly W3C-standards compliant
versions of engines for working with XML, DOM,
XPath and XSLT, not to mention the bi-directional
link between richly structured Object/Relational
datatypes and XML as well as XML document searching.

Our offering to help users like yourself who may
be familiar with SQL and want to put SQL to work
with XML and XSLT to do some amazing things is
called the XSQL Servlet. This provides a framework
for declaratively tying the SQL, XML, and XSLT
worlds together in a straightforward way by
building "XSQL Pages" that are XML templates with
tags like <xsql:query> that let you assemble
a "datapage" of active XML-based content
from the database and elsewhere and then use
XSLT to transform it into a format that's
appropriate to the requester over the web.
It comes with lots of demos and a good tutorial
to get started.

Keep an eye out for the 0.9.8.6 release of
the XSQL Servlet due to be available on our
Oracle Technet website at
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml in the
next few days. It contains tons of new
functionality over the 0.9.6.2 release
that's there now.

Drop in to the XML Discussion Forum
on the technet website if you have specific
Oracle and XML questions we can help you with...

_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/java
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml
----- Original Message -----
From: <pmalone2@csc.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:11 AM
Subject: To Oracle or NOT to Oracle


|
|
|  Gentlemen,
|        I've been following this list for about two months now and can
safely say
| that I am a "beginner" at designing XML anythings. If I'm asking too basic
a
| question please don't hesitate to tell me, or steer me to someplace else
better
| suited <g>.
|        My situation is this...the company that I work for wants a project
done
| in XML, it is not overly complicated, but it poses some problems for me.
1) They
| want this project to be a "learning" project and for me to master XML (no
| pressure!) so I can do more complex projects. 2) No one here knows anymore
XML
| than I do (which isn't alot) and nothing they have worked on has anything
at all
| to do with the way this project has to work.
|        Now, at this point I don't have much in the way of software for
working
| with XML although I have downloaded "ALOT" of demos that I thought would
help.
| But alas, most of them won't do the trick. Especially since I have to
create
| this project for the government and it will be residing on a Netscape
Enterprise
| Server.
|         I thought that it might be a big help to me if I could get a
"complete"
| set of XML tools with step by step instructions to walk me through some
examples
| of using XML from start to finish....maybe using a database (which would
work
| well for my first project), or something else. To date I've looked at
| "Bluestones" Visual XML, and where that is a nice looking bit of fluff
with a
| great Java interface, it seems to require too much proprietary software
(mainly
| it's bluestone server) for me to use comfortably, and a few pieces of
software
| that they don't even make to run it (i.e. Xtrans). So, I look to Oracle
8i, and
| it seems to have everything in it I need....but will it work well with
Netscape
| Enterprise Server???? I'm prepared to get this software (my company now
uses
| Oracle 7), but I need to make sure there are no exteme minuses for using
this on
| the Enterprise Server.
|        If Oracle isn't the answer...any suggestions???
|        I've tried getting books on XML, but most seem to base their
examples on
| using the Microsoft software that uses "data islands" which evidently I
can't
| use since I"m gonna be using the Enterprise Server......I have had Zero
luck in
| finding ANY helpful Developers books that give me the information I need.
Any
| suggestions here???? There do appear to be two books being published soon
on
| using XML with the Enterprise Server (I saw them on Amazon.com) but they
aren't
| available yet.
|        Any suggestions would be helpful at this time.....and if it isn't a
| problem, in a future message, lay out what I'm trying to do (especially if
| Oracle or Bluestone isn't what I want) and get some suggestions.
|            Thanks!!!!   Pete Malone
|
|
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
| unsubscribe xml-dev
| To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message;
| subscribe xml-dev-digest
| List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
|
|


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 17:22:53 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:21:51 +0000">
 <John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000">
 <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
 <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000105172219.00b49e20@mailhost>

At 10:12 05/01/00 -0500, David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
>John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
>
>In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
>behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
>of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
>example.

OK, let me try again...

---------

class QName {
public:
    wstring nsURI () const;        // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
    wstring localPart () const;    // p
    bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
};

class ElementInfo {
    QName name () const;
    wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
    wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
    AttributeList &attributes () const;
};

void startElement (const ElementInfo &info) throws SAXException;

----------

Advantages:

(a) All values can be lazily evaluated if this speeds things up (i.e. the
QName and ElementInfo classes need contain no more than a raw pointer into
the parser's internal data structures).

(b) ElementInfo can be extended later to add extra methods without source
level incompatibility.

(c) QName has no public fields which do not participate in equality
testing, yet the equality operator has the "right" behaviour.
-- 
Cheers,
John

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 18:23:38 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
	 <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost> <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38738C21.1A8BFB0C@pacbell.net>

If SAX2 is going to be API-incompatible with SAX1, then I agree that
something like a "Name" class seems desirable.  By and large, APIs that
deal with composite names do so through a unified abstraction.  The few
I've seen that don't do so have been error prone.


David Megginson wrote:
> 
> John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
> 
> > I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.  The QNames are equal if ns() and
> > name() both match. ...

For the record, there's a non-normative appendix that says a few more
things.  Like, the attribute name { "http://foo", "bar" } is different
the element name with the same structure (different 'partition').  Since
it's non-normative, and for other reasons, I encourage ignoring that.

(Yes, prefix isn't supposed to matter in the common case.  One ignores
pointer values and use what they point to, except in special cases.)


> In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> example.

Actually, it's quite common for nontrivial objects that equals() only
involve a subset of the visible properties.  It's probably even typical
in applications I've worked with.

There are definitions for what equals() must do, and the Java issue that
is usually overlooked is that if two objects are equals() they must
have the same hashCode()!  There may be dozens of publicly accessible
properties, most of which don't affect equality.

Don't be thinking that equals() means anything more than the "most
common comparison operation".  There are many comparison methods, and
also "==", that can be defined or used as needed.

- Dave

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Wed Jan  5 18:17:29 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000"> <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost> <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost> <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38738BF3.8C505831@mecomnet.de>

If one doesn't want to leave it up to the user (eg, via user-specified class
implementations) then the parser should intern the QNames and effect object
identity according to whether it is observing namespaces or not (i.e. based on
augmenting stem equality with either prefix or uri equality).

If the interning mechanism is made available to the application, then the
application can use it to intern any "interesting" names and bind them to
static variables when it initializes. From then on, == need behave only as an
identity test.

This will get complex if the application wants to switch modi, but then I
don't believe applications belong in "non-namspace-observing" mode to begin with.

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
> 
> > I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.  The QNames are equal if ns() and
> > name() both match.  The prefix is irrelevant.  This is what I suggested in
> > my definition of the equality operator above.
> >
> >     if (qn1 == qn2) ...
> >
> > just does the right thing.  If some application really wants to compare the
> > prefixed name, it can always write:
> >
> >     if (qn1.prefixedName () == qn2.prefixedName ()) ...
> >
> > I'm obviously missing something, since you and other knowledgable people
> > don't regard this as self evidently obvious -- can you explain the problem
> > to me, please?
> 
> In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> example.
>


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 18:32:15 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <199912262051.NAA02771@localhost.localdomain>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912261900330.8065-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
	 <14440.52595.283247.36221@localhost.localdomain>
	 <386FA0D2.6845B6F0@pacbell.net> <387083EF.C563875B@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <38738E21.55817147@pacbell.net>

james anderson wrote:
> 
> i had understood
>   {"","a",""},
> from the example, to denote a name in a namespace for which there would have
> been a declaration, namely a binding such as
> 
>   <... xmlns="" ... >
> 
> for the ignominious "null" namespace. how does this come to correspond to
> 
>   { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix } ?

It doesn't.  Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
may need tweaking to get this right):

	- Undeclared (null?)
	- Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
	- Some URI (the case folk focus on).

The distinction between "undefined" and "empty" will be familiar to folk
in the database world (maybe with different terms).  SAX2 will have to be
clear on how it exposes this.

One more edge case for applications to trip over!

- Dave



> i agree that an "==" implementation needs to account for this, but didn't
> think it was nonconformant.
> 
> David Brownell wrote:
> >
> > David Megginson wrote:
> > >
> > > Clark C. Evans writes:
> > >
> > >  > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> > >  > >
> > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", ""} ==
> > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", "html"}.
> > >  >
> > >  >          {"","a",""} != {"","a","html"}
> > >
> > > As I understood it, the suggestion was that
> > >
> > >   {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}
> >
> > Actually I think the namespace spec defines
> >
> >     { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }
> >
> > as "namespace-nonconformant", AKA some kind of error which they
> > neglected to describe well enough to support portable APIs.
> >
> > Meaning that any application choosing to use such a "Name"
> > class (which IMHO is a fine notion) needs to treat this value
> > with care ... IEEE floating point math has a variety of sorts
> > of "NaN" values, perhaps useful models can be found there.
> > I'd suggest that most "==" tests against such a Name ought to
> > fail, and ordering tests should cause exceptions.
> >
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 18:41:24 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
		 <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost> <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <38738C21.1A8BFB0C@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3873902A.81A3ACF2@algx.net>

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> If SAX2 is going to be API-incompatible with SAX1, then I agree that
> something like a "Name" class seems desirable.  By and large, APIs that
> deal with composite names do so through a unified abstraction.  The few
> I've seen that don't do so have been error prone.

I agree a helper class could greatly simplify using namespaces/URI/etc.
correctly.

> 
> David Megginson wrote:
> >
> > John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
> >
> > > I'm sorry, I don't see the problem.  The QNames are equal if ns() and
> > > name() both match. ...
> 
> For the record, there's a non-normative appendix that says a few more
> things.  Like, the attribute name { "http://foo", "bar" } is different
> the element name with the same structure (different 'partition').  Since
> it's non-normative, and for other reasons, I encourage ignoring that.
> 
> (Yes, prefix isn't supposed to matter in the common case.  One ignores
> pointer values and use what they point to, except in special cases.)
> 
> > In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> > behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> > of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> > example.
> 
> Actually, it's quite common for nontrivial objects that equals() only
> involve a subset of the visible properties.  It's probably even typical
> in applications I've worked with.

I agree with David B. in theory, but David M. (gee, that's confusing...)
in practice.  I think that equality, and assumptions about equality,
have some side effects.  For example, if two objects compared through
equals() return true, then I expect to be able to use the object
interchangeable.  Notice I didn't add [for the specific task they were
being compared for] to the end of that sentence.  In other words, though
they may be equal for the purpose of the startElement() function, they
may not be equal in a case where the differing public fields are
actually used.  

This to me reeks of bugs waiting to happen if the two objects were
evaluated as equal, because of this.  Someone will surely manage to
happily go use Q2 because it is equals() to Q1 someplace where Q2 will
not achive the same results as Q1.  I'd bet lunch on it ;-)

So I think equals() isn't a good idea; however, something like <code>if
(name1.sameNamespace(name2))</code> or something equivalent (not the
best example, but you get the idea) doesn't offend my eyes.... for what
it's worth.

-Brett

> 
> There are definitions for what equals() must do, and the Java issue that
> is usually overlooked is that if two objects are equals() they must
> have the same hashCode()!  There may be dozens of publicly accessible
> properties, most of which don't affect equality.
> 
> Don't be thinking that equals() means anything more than the "most
> common comparison operation".  There are many comparison methods, and
> also "==", that can be defined or used as needed.
> 
> - Dave
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 18:50:26 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:01 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML
  Schema
In-Reply-To: <38720239.481577DF@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000105184943.00aae430@mailhost>

At 09:22 04/01/00 -0500, "Roger L. Costello" <costello@mitre.org> wrote:

>There has been a considerable amount of discussion (and confusion) on
>how an XML instance document indicates the XML Schema(s) that it
>conforms to.  I am not sure that it is yet clear in people's minds on
>how to do it.  I will take a stab at explaining it, based upon the
>discussions.

(snip very helpful exposition)

I'm still struggling, however to understand how this is all intended to
work in an environment which is not continuously connected to the internet.
 Even on machines which are themseleves well connected, it's surely
unacceptable to have one's data become unusable because the machine in
Outer Mongolia which holds the schema has crashed.

Note that this is not just a matter of validation, because the schema can
supply default attribute values.  The data can become meaningless in the
absence of a schema.

I'd hoped to find a statement such as "a general-purpose schema-aware
processor must provide some catalogue facility which allows the
specification of a location from which to fetch the schema corresponding to
an NS URI.  Only in the absence of such a catalogue entry may the processor
attempt to dereference the URI given by the schemaLocation attribute".

I'm also puzzled about the semantics of a namespace declaration without a
corresponding schemaLocation attribute.  Does it mean:

(a) Names in the namespace do not have an association to a schema.  No
validation is to be performed (and no attribute defaults are to be supplied).

(b) Unless the processor provides some alternative method of locating the
applicable schema, then the data cannot be interpreted and an error occurs.
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan  5 18:56:24 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000105105740.01441180@pop.intergate.ca>

At 10:32 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
>it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
>may need tweaking to get this right):
>
>	- Undeclared (null?)
>	- Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
>	- Some URI (the case folk focus on).

No.  The second case is explicitly ruled out by the namespace spec.  Check
sections 2 and 5.2 of the namespace spec.  The DOM WG checked this carefully 
and did the right thing.  There are only two cases: there is a namespace 
with a non-null URI, or there isn't a namespace.

>One more edge case for applications to trip over!

Wrong. -Tim


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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 19:20:03 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
		 <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost>
		 <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <38738C21.1A8BFB0C@pacbell.net> <3873902A.81A3ACF2@algx.net> <3873980F.74FE29E4@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3873993F.CB9D66B6@algx.net>

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> Brett McLaughlin wrote:
> >
> > David Brownell wrote:
> > >
> > > David Megginson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> > > > behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> > > > of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> > > > example.
> > >
> > > Actually, it's quite common for nontrivial objects that equals() only
> > > involve a subset of the visible properties.  It's probably even typical
> > > in applications I've worked with.
> >
> > I agree with David B. in theory, but David M. (gee, that's confusing...)
> > in practice.  I think that equality, and assumptions about equality,
> > have some side effects.  For example, if two objects compared through
> > equals() return true, then I expect to be able to use the object
> > interchangeable.
> 
> You expect wrong; sorry.  Look at the spec for java.lang.Object.equals();
> it guarantees quite a few properties (reflexive, symmetric, transitive,
> consistent, ...) but NOT substitutability.  (Use "==" or some specialized
> method for that.)

No... read again:

> > I agree with David B. in <<theory>>, but David M. (gee, that's confusing...)
> > in <<practice>>.

I know what equals() is supposed to do.  However, if we took a poll on
who knows what it is supposed to do, you wouldn't get many "ayes" :-(

I know this is defensive programming.  However, if you _know_ a lot of
people are going to make a mistake, shouldn't, as a good developer, you
try to avoid cases where you _invite_ that mistake?  I don't argue with
your reading of Sun's API.  In fact, I agree (which is why I always
implement equals() and hashCode() in my custom classes).  However, I
know how people think (try writing a book to the masses, and making
assumptions about what people know - not pretty!), and am forced to
acknowledge that.  

> 
> > So I think equals() isn't a good idea; however, something like <code>if
> > (name1.sameNamespace(name2))</code> or something equivalent (not the
> > best example, but you get the idea) doesn't offend my eyes.... for what
> > it's worth.
> 
> Were there to be a Name class that couldn't be used as a hashtable key to
> get the expected effect, then it'd be unusable.  You're suggesting that,
> in effect.

Only to a certain degree; the example was just to say if we want to
provide an equality test for this specific purpose, than I think a
better choice (one that helps people, but doesn't hurt us) would be to
use a more intuitive name than equals().  But yes, using equals() or any
related function carries with it some side effects such as hashtable key
considerations.

-Brett

> 
> - Dave

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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 19:21:18 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
Message-ID: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com>

Hi,
 I'm trying to wrap my head around the XMLSchema drafts to determine their
immediate usefulness (to myself), and have some very basic questions.

1)  What is the difference between an archetype, type and datatype?
When is one used in place of the other.

2) Is multiple inheritance not supported for derived types?

2a) How is inheritance supported? Is it possible to access the elements of a
types source without manually doing the traversal, or is inheritance only
useful in the instance document?

3) Is it possible to use the schema for application specific requirements.
  For example, I'm basing my schema on a Java class model and would like to
specify the Java class name in the schema.  The only way I can see is to
wrap it in an <annotation/>.

3a) Likewise, certain <elements> may actually refer to another type, so I
want to do something like:
<element name="thePrice" type="reference" referentType="Price">

I know I can say something like:

 <element name="thePrice" type="PriceReference">

but that isn't really flexible enough.

Perhaps type can hold a ref of some sort, tho....


Maybe I would just be better off with another XML instance document
describing the class model?

thanks,
alan






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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Wed Jan  5 19:19:24 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <199912262051.NAA02771@localhost.localdomain>
		 <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912261900330.8065-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
		 <14440.52595.283247.36221@localhost.localdomain>
		 <386FA0D2.6845B6F0@pacbell.net> <387083EF.C563875B@mecomnet.de> <38738E21.55817147@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <38739A7A.731133E7@mecomnet.de>

hmm..., the thread is becoming rather tenuous, but, if you concur, that
{"","a",""}, which is descibes <... xmlns="" ... > is not the same as {
undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }, then how does the notion of nonconformance
enter into the question re

> > > {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}

?

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> james anderson wrote:
> >
> > i had understood
> >   {"","a",""},
> > from the example, to denote a name in a namespace for which there would have
> > been a declaration, namely a binding such as
> >
> >   <... xmlns="" ... >
> >
> > for the ignominious "null" namespace. how does this come to correspond to
> >
> >   { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix } ?
> 
> It doesn't.  Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
> it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
> may need tweaking to get this right):
> 
>         - Undeclared (null?)
>         - Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
>         - Some URI (the case folk focus on).

don't they have four?
          - Undeclared (not "null"; that term already has a different meaning
in the REC)
          - Declared as "no namespace":      xmlns=""
          - Declares as the empty string:    xmlns:html=""
          - Some URI (the case folk focus on).

> 
> The distinction between "undefined" and "empty" will be familiar to folk
> in the database world (maybe with different terms).  SAX2 will have to be
> clear on how it exposes this.
> 
> One more edge case for applications to trip over!
> 
> - Dave
> 
> > i agree that an "==" implementation needs to account for this, but didn't
> > think it was nonconformant.
> >
> > David Brownell wrote:
> > >
> > > David Megginson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Clark C. Evans writes:
> > > >
> > > >  > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> > > >  > >
> > > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", ""} ==
> > > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", "html"}.
> > > >  >
> > > >  >          {"","a",""} != {"","a","html"}
> > > >
> > > > As I understood it, the suggestion was that
> > > >
> > > >   {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}
> > >
> > > Actually I think the namespace spec defines
> > >
> > >     { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }
> > >
> > > as "namespace-nonconformant", AKA some kind of error which they
> > > neglected to describe well enough to support portable APIs.
> > >
> > > Meaning that any application choosing to use such a "Name"
> > > class (which IMHO is a fine notion) needs to treat this value
> > > with care ... IEEE floating point math has a variety of sorts
> > > of "NaN" values, perhaps useful models can be found there.
> > > I'd suggest that most "==" tests against such a Name ought to
> > > fail, and ordering tests should cause exceptions.
> > >
> >


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 19:14:36 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost>
	 <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost>
	 <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <38738C21.1A8BFB0C@pacbell.net> <3873902A.81A3ACF2@algx.net>
Message-ID: <3873980F.74FE29E4@pacbell.net>

Brett McLaughlin wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote:
> >
> > David Megginson wrote:
> > >
> > > In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> > > behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> > > of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> > > example.
> >
> > Actually, it's quite common for nontrivial objects that equals() only
> > involve a subset of the visible properties.  It's probably even typical
> > in applications I've worked with.
> 
> I agree with David B. in theory, but David M. (gee, that's confusing...)
> in practice.  I think that equality, and assumptions about equality,
> have some side effects.  For example, if two objects compared through
> equals() return true, then I expect to be able to use the object
> interchangeable.

You expect wrong; sorry.  Look at the spec for java.lang.Object.equals();
it guarantees quite a few properties (reflexive, symmetric, transitive,
consistent, ...) but NOT substitutability.  (Use "==" or some specialized
method for that.)


> So I think equals() isn't a good idea; however, something like <code>if
> (name1.sameNamespace(name2))</code> or something equivalent (not the
> best example, but you get the idea) doesn't offend my eyes.... for what
> it's worth.

Were there to be a Name class that couldn't be used as a hashtable key to
get the expected effect, then it'd be unusable.  You're suggesting that,
in effect.

- Dave

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 19:38:52 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com>
Message-ID: <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net>

Alan Santos wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  I'm trying to wrap my head around the XMLSchema drafts to determine their
> immediate usefulness (to myself), and have some very basic questions.
> 
> 1)  What is the difference between an archetype, type and datatype?
> When is one used in place of the other.

<archetype> is gone, replaced by <type>, which is used for specifying
non-"primitive" (i.e. predefined) types for elements.

<datatype> is for doing the same sort of operation on attributes.

for example:

<element name="myElement">
  <type>
    <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
    <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
    <attribute name="isPrimary">
      <datatype content="empty" />
    </attribute>
    <attribute name="focus">
      <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
        <enumeration value="Java" />
        <enumeration value="C" />
        <enumeration value="XML" />
      </datatype>
    </attribute>
  </type>
</element>

> 
> 2) Is multiple inheritance not supported for derived types?

Personal Opinion: Stay away from using inheritance - it is changing like
mad, and is not a great solution for XML inheritance, anyway (IMHO).  We
are working on a proposal for this over at Apache XML, but it is not
ready for primetime yet.

> 
> 2a) How is inheritance supported? Is it possible to access the elements of a
> types source without manually doing the traversal, or is inheritance only
> useful in the instance document?

See #2

> 
> 3) Is it possible to use the schema for application specific requirements.
>   For example, I'm basing my schema on a Java class model and would like to
> specify the Java class name in the schema.  The only way I can see is to
> wrap it in an <annotation/>.

Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
(therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema.

> 
> 3a) Likewise, certain <elements> may actually refer to another type, so I
> want to do something like:
> <element name="thePrice" type="reference" referentType="Price">
> 
> I know I can say something like:
> 
>  <element name="thePrice" type="PriceReference">
> 
> but that isn't really flexible enough.

Why not?  What's the difference in your mind?  If you can define an
infinite number of types, and define an infinite number of elements with
any defined type, how is that not flexible?

> 
> Perhaps type can hold a ref of some sort, tho....
> 
> Maybe I would just be better off with another XML instance document
> describing the class model?

Sounds like it.  Schemas are not ready to replace XML documents.  Don't
try it...

-Brett

> 
> thanks,
> alan
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 19:41:17 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <3.0.32.20000105105740.01441180@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <38739E51.973765FA@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 10:32 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> >Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
> >it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
> >may need tweaking to get this right):
> >
> >       - Undeclared (null?)
> >       - Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
> >       - Some URI (the case folk focus on).
> 
> No.  The second case is explicitly ruled out by the namespace spec.  Check
> sections 2 and 5.2 of the namespace spec.

I think you've gotten confused by the multiple iterations on this
topic.  Likely not the only person!

My original statement was about an error case, an undeclared prefix.
The followup was about a non-error case, the default namespace, and
specifically what 'xmlns=""' does.  That response addressed both issues.

To be clearer, the cases correspond to these XML documents:

	- undeclared prefix (error for namespace, but legal XML)
		<prefix:EXAMPLE />

	- default namespace (per namespace spec, sections 2, 5.2)
		<root xmlns="http://foo">
			<EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="" />
		</root>
	  and similarly
		<EXAMPLE />

	- Some URI
		<prefix:EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="http://foo" />

That is, there's a distinction between "declaration needed and missing"
and "default namespace".

Since the XML standard doesn't directly incorporate the namespaces
spec (and make the first case be a fatal error), there needs to be
some way to deal with that first case, and some way that it'll be
exposed through APIs.  Perhaps you have a suggestion about another
way to expose it?

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 19:45:22 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <199912262051.NAA02771@localhost.localdomain>
	 <Pine.LNX.4.10.9912261900330.8065-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
	 <14440.52595.283247.36221@localhost.localdomain>
	 <386FA0D2.6845B6F0@pacbell.net> <387083EF.C563875B@mecomnet.de>
	 <38738E21.55817147@pacbell.net> <38739A7A.731133E7@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <38739F49.A759C266@pacbell.net>

james anderson wrote:
> 
> hmm..., the thread is becoming rather tenuous, but, if you concur, that
> {"","a",""}, which is descibes <... xmlns="" ... > is not the same as {
> undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }, then how does the notion of nonconformance
> enter into the question re
> 
> > > > {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}
> 
> ?

Tim pointed out the spec only allows a null URI in the case of the
default namespace declaration:  xmlns="".  Prefix declarations may
not have a null URI:  xmlns:html="" is someone's bad.  Likewise is
a reference to an undeclared "html" prefix.

At the moment I won't suggest how to expose the former error, but
I'd thought it was pretty clear how to expose the latter.

- Dave


> David Brownell wrote:
> >
> > james anderson wrote:
> > >
> > > i had understood
> > >   {"","a",""},
> > > from the example, to denote a name in a namespace for which there would have
> > > been a declaration, namely a binding such as
> > >
> > >   <... xmlns="" ... >
> > >
> > > for the ignominious "null" namespace. how does this come to correspond to
> > >
> > >   { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix } ?
> >
> > It doesn't.  Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
> > it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
> > may need tweaking to get this right):
> >
> >         - Undeclared (null?)
> >         - Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
> >         - Some URI (the case folk focus on).
> 
> don't they have four?
>           - Undeclared (not "null"; that term already has a different meaning
> in the REC)
>           - Declared as "no namespace":      xmlns=""
>           - Declares as the empty string:    xmlns:html=""
>           - Some URI (the case folk focus on).
> 
> >
> > The distinction between "undefined" and "empty" will be familiar to folk
> > in the database world (maybe with different terms).  SAX2 will have to be
> > clear on how it exposes this.
> >
> > One more edge case for applications to trip over!
> >
> > - Dave
> >
> > > i agree that an "==" implementation needs to account for this, but didn't
> > > think it was nonconformant.
> > >
> > > David Brownell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > David Megginson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Clark C. Evans writes:
> > > > >
> > > > >  > On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> > > > >  > >
> > > > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", ""} ==
> > > > >  > > {"http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml", "a", "html"}.
> > > > >  >
> > > > >  >          {"","a",""} != {"","a","html"}
> > > > >
> > > > > As I understood it, the suggestion was that
> > > > >
> > > > >   {"", "a", ""} == {"", "a", "html"}
> > > >
> > > > Actually I think the namespace spec defines
> > > >
> > > >     { undeclared, "a", valid-prefix }
> > > >
> > > > as "namespace-nonconformant", AKA some kind of error which they
> > > > neglected to describe well enough to support portable APIs.
> > > >
> > > > Meaning that any application choosing to use such a "Name"
> > > > class (which IMHO is a fine notion) needs to treat this value
> > > > with care ... IEEE floating point math has a variety of sorts
> > > > of "NaN" values, perhaps useful models can be found there.
> > > > I'd suggest that most "==" tests against such a Name ought to
> > > > fail, and ordering tests should cause exceptions.
> > > >
> > >
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan  5 19:51:25 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000105115237.014e58d0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:41 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>To be clearer, the cases correspond to these XML documents:
>	- undeclared prefix (error for namespace, but legal XML)
>		<prefix:EXAMPLE />

In SAX2, if namespace processing is turned on (the default) this clearly
has to be handled as an error.

>	- default namespace (per namespace spec, sections 2, 5.2)
>		<root xmlns="http://foo">
>			<EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="" />
>		</root>

Likewise.  xmlns:prefix="" is always an error per the namespace spec.
Er, did you mean <EXAMPLE xmlns="">?  If so, it's correct and EXAMPLE is
not in any namespace.

>	- Some URI
>		<prefix:EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="http://foo" />

What's the problem here?

>That is, there's a distinction between "declaration needed and missing"
>and "default namespace".

Indeed.  The first is an error, the second is legal.  I'm feeling stupid,
because I think I'm missing your point.

>Since the XML standard doesn't directly incorporate the namespaces
>spec (and make the first case be a fatal error), there needs to be
>some way to deal with that first case, and some way that it'll be
>exposed through APIs.  

The only way to expose the first case is as an error.  What am I missing?
 -Tim

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 19:54:05 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <3.0.32.20000105105740.01441180@pop.intergate.ca> <38739E51.973765FA@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3873A155.CF65DABC@pacbell.net>

And as for the obvious typo, strike the highlighted characters

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> To be clearer, the cases correspond to these XML documents:
> 
>         - undeclared prefix (error for namespace, but legal XML)
>                 <prefix:EXAMPLE />
> 
>         - default namespace (per namespace spec, sections 2, 5.2)
>                 <root xmlns="http://foo">
>                         <EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="" />
                                        XXXXXXX
>                 </root>
>           and similarly
>                 <EXAMPLE />
> 
>         - Some URI
>                 <prefix:EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="http://foo" />

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From fscheng at netzero.net  Wed Jan  5 19:56:28 2000
From: fscheng at netzero.net (Franklin Cheng)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <002301bf57b6$bbdb0260$644b8fcd@intervoice.com>


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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan  5 19:59:36 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000105120042.014e58a0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:45 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>Tim pointed out the spec only allows a null URI in the case of the
>default namespace declaration:  xmlns="".  

And when you're doing this, you're saying that there is *no* default
namespace, not that the default namespace is "".  

Pardon for flogging this possibly-dead horse, but you have to read the 
text of the namespace spec carefully to realise that you just can't ever 
have a namespace URI whose value is "".  We should have put in a sentence 
in section 5.2 saying "Note that as a consequence of this rule, it is not 
possible to have a namespace whose value is the empty string."

As a consequence of this, I have suggested that in SAX2, we use ""
to represent the absence of a namespace rather than null.  Then you'll
always be able to do 

 if (ns.equals(myNamespace))

rather than

 if ((ns != null) && ns.equals(myNamespace))

 -Tim


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan  5 20:02:03 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <3.0.32.20000105115237.014e58d0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3873A332.1C8463F8@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 11:41 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> >To be clearer, the cases correspond to these XML documents:
> >       - undeclared prefix (error for namespace, but legal XML)
> >               <prefix:EXAMPLE />
> 
> In SAX2, if namespace processing is turned on (the default) this clearly
> has to be handled as an error.

And the proposal was that it'd be nonfatal, so that applications
will be seeing such data when they continue after nonfatal errors.

One issue was how it'd be represented ... given an API that provides
a namespace URI with every name, what it would provide there.


> >       - default namespace (per namespace spec, sections 2, 5.2)
> >               <root xmlns="http://foo">
> >                       <EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="" />
> >               </root>
> 
> Likewise.  xmlns:prefix="" is always an error per the namespace spec.
> Er, did you mean <EXAMPLE xmlns="">?  If so, it's correct and EXAMPLE is
> not in any namespace.

The ":prefix" was a typo, yes.  I used the phrase "default
namespace" incorrectly.  This was to be "good" input.


> >       - Some URI
> >               <prefix:EXAMPLE xmlns:prefix="http://foo" />
> 
> What's the problem here?

There was none.  The second and third cases were intended to be legal
both from the XML and the namespaces perspective; only the first was
to be problematic.


> >That is, there's a distinction between "declaration needed and missing"
> >and "default namespace".
> 
> Indeed.  The first is an error, the second is legal.  I'm feeling stupid,
> because I think I'm missing your point.

How to expose the first case through the API, given that like any
validity constraint it's not fatal.

- Dave

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan  5 20:10:00 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751C1@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Tim Bray wrote,
> As a consequence of this, I have suggested that in SAX2, we 
> use "" to represent the absence of a namespace rather than 
> null.  Then you'll always be able to do 
>
> if (ns.equals(myNamespace))
>
> rather than
>
> if ((ns != null) && ns.equals(myNamespace))

I don't think that's enough of a justification, because so
long as myNamespace is known to be non-null (surely the most
common case) we could represent the absence of a namespace as
null and write,

  if(myNamespace.equals(ns))

I think the Java idiom,

  if(knownNonNull.equals(possiblyNull))

is widely known enough to make this reasonable.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 20:15:28 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net>
Message-ID: <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com>


Thanks for the quick response Brett.

In the example below, I understand the point of <datatype>,
but what is <type> getting us?  Don't you have the same thing without it?


> for example:
>
> <element name="myElement">
>   <type>
>     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
>     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
>     <attribute name="isPrimary">
>       <datatype content="empty" />
>     </attribute>
>     <attribute name="focus">
>       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
>         <enumeration value="Java" />
>         <enumeration value="C" />
>         <enumeration value="XML" />
>       </datatype>
>     </attribute>
>   </type>
> </element>
>

> Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
> idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
> based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
> (therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema.
>


The _XML_ contains instances.  But felt it was more appropriate within the
schema document.  (Or some other xml instance document)

Why do you feel it is a poor decision?
Am I abusing the intent of  an XML Schema in a horrible manner?
Perhaps XMI is a better option for my needs?

> Why not?  What's the difference in your mind?  If you can define an
> infinite number of types, and define an infinite number of elements with
> any defined type, how is that not flexible?

Sorry, it is flexible, it just means more work for me, and users of my
application.

Now we need two elements  when we wish to add a new type to the schema
(unless I'm missing something else)

(e.g. <element name="xxxReference"/>
<element name="xxx"/>)


thanks,
alan



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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Wed Jan  5 20:22:36 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000105120042.014e58a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200001052017.MAA22646@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 5 Jan 00, at 12:00, Tim Bray wrote:

> Pardon for flogging this possibly-dead horse, but you have to read the 
> text of the namespace spec carefully to realise that you just can't ever 
> have a namespace URI whose value is "".  We should have put in a sentence 
> in section 5.2 saying "Note that as a consequence of this rule, it is not 
> possible to have a namespace whose value is the empty string."
> 
> As a consequence of this, I have suggested that in SAX2, we use ""
> to represent the absence of a namespace rather than null.  

This also matches the DOM Level 2 usage, where the absence of a 
namespace can be represented by null or "", depending on the 
method or property.


Lauren

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 21:14:18 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com>
Message-ID: <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net>

Alan Santos wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the quick response Brett.
> 
> In the example below, I understand the point of <datatype>,
> but what is <type> getting us?  Don't you have the same thing without it?

Nope.  This:

> > <element name="myElement">
> >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> >       <datatype content="empty" />
> >     </attribute>
> >     <attribute name="focus">
> >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
> >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> >         <enumeration value="C" />
> >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> >       </datatype>
> >     </attribute>
> > </element>

is mucho illegal.  Remember that XML Schema will be handled by SAX,
which is sequential.  So SAX must know _ahead_ of time that it is going
to be dealing with a compound type.  That way it can know to allow
multiple element definitions within another definition.  

Without the <type> construct, SAX would have to "magically" know when
nested element definitions are legal and when they are not... I know
there are other good reasons, too, although I'm too tired to think of
them... sorry.. ;-)

-Brett

> 
> > for example:
> >
> > <element name="myElement">
> >   <type>
> >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> >       <datatype content="empty" />
> >     </attribute>
> >     <attribute name="focus">
> >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
> >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> >         <enumeration value="C" />
> >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> >       </datatype>
> >     </attribute>
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> >
> 
> > Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
> > idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
> > based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
> > (therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema.
> >
> 
> The _XML_ contains instances.  But felt it was more appropriate within the
> schema document.  (Or some other xml instance document)
> 
> Why do you feel it is a poor decision?
> Am I abusing the intent of  an XML Schema in a horrible manner?
> Perhaps XMI is a better option for my needs?
> 
> > Why not?  What's the difference in your mind?  If you can define an
> > infinite number of types, and define an infinite number of elements with
> > any defined type, how is that not flexible?
> 
> Sorry, it is flexible, it just means more work for me, and users of my
> application.
> 
> Now we need two elements  when we wish to add a new type to the schema
> (unless I'm missing something else)
> 
> (e.g. <element name="xxxReference"/>
> <element name="xxx"/>)
> 
> thanks,
> alan

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan  5 21:22:38 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: John's Suggestion (Was: Re: SAX2 Namespace Support)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000105172219.00b49e20@mailhost>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001051611100.18283-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

Pretty.  John's Suggestion is a step in the right direction.

On Wed, 5 Jan 2000, John Aldridge wrote:
> 
> class QName {
> public:
>     wstring nsURI () const;        // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
>     wstring localPart () const;    // p
>     bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
> };
> 
> class ElementInfo {
>     QName name () const;
>     wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
>     wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
>     AttributeList &attributes () const;
> };
> 
> void startElement (const ElementInfo &info) throws SAXException;

However, it still fails the following "non-namespace" edge case...

    { not-specified, "html", "p" } == { not-specified, "html", "p" }
and { not-specified, ""    , "p" } != { not-specified, "html", "p" }
  
Let's repair...

  class QName {
    public:
      boolean isURI()      const;
      wstring qualifier()  const;  
      wstring local()      const;
      bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
  };

Where, in the not-specified cases, isURI() returns "false", 
and qualifier() returns the prefix.  And, in the specified
cases, isURI() returns "true" and qualifier() returns the URI.

Clark


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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 21:30:55 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net>
Message-ID: <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net>

Brett McLaughlin wrote:
> 
> Alan Santos wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the quick response Brett.
> >
> > In the example below, I understand the point of <datatype>,
> > but what is <type> getting us?  Don't you have the same thing without it?
> 
> Nope.  This:
> 
> > > <element name="myElement">
> > >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> > >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> > >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> > >       <datatype content="empty" />
> > >     </attribute>
> > >     <attribute name="focus">
> > >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
> > >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> > >         <enumeration value="C" />
> > >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> > >       </datatype>
> > >     </attribute>
> > > </element>
> 
> is mucho illegal.  Remember that XML Schema will be handled by SAX,
> which is sequential.  So SAX must know _ahead_ of time that it is going
> to be dealing with a compound type.  That way it can know to allow
> multiple element definitions within another definition.
> 
> Without the <type> construct, SAX would have to "magically" know when
> nested element definitions are legal and when they are not... I know
> there are other good reasons, too, although I'm too tired to think of
> them... sorry.. ;-)

Dah!  I'm asleep today... the reason you need <type> is because you can
specify explicit named types:

<type name="myType">
  <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
  <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="integer" />
</type>

<element name="myElement" type="myType" />

There is no way without the <type> element construct to specify a name
for a non-primitive data type without really blowing away any idea of
congruity across the element space.  So we have the "type" element.

Make sense?

-Brett

> 
> -Brett
> 
> >
> > > for example:
> > >
> > > <element name="myElement">
> > >   <type>
> > >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> > >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> > >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> > >       <datatype content="empty" />
> > >     </attribute>
> > >     <attribute name="focus">
> > >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
> > >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> > >         <enumeration value="C" />
> > >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> > >       </datatype>
> > >     </attribute>
> > >   </type>
> > > </element>
> > >
> >
> > > Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
> > > idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
> > > based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
> > > (therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema.
> > >
> >
> > The _XML_ contains instances.  But felt it was more appropriate within the
> > schema document.  (Or some other xml instance document)
> >
> > Why do you feel it is a poor decision?
> > Am I abusing the intent of  an XML Schema in a horrible manner?
> > Perhaps XMI is a better option for my needs?
> >
> > > Why not?  What's the difference in your mind?  If you can define an
> > > infinite number of types, and define an infinite number of elements with
> > > any defined type, how is that not flexible?
> >
> > Sorry, it is flexible, it just means more work for me, and users of my
> > application.
> >
> > Now we need two elements  when we wish to add a new type to the schema
> > (unless I'm missing something else)
> >
> > (e.g. <element name="xxxReference"/>
> > <element name="xxx"/>)
> >
> > thanks,
> > alan
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 21:52:14 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net>
Message-ID: <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com>

> Dah!  I'm asleep today... the reason you need <type> is because you can
> specify explicit named types:
>
> <type name="myType">
>   <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
>   <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="integer" />
> </type>
>
> <element name="myElement" type="myType" />
>
> There is no way without the <type> element construct to specify a name
> for a non-primitive data type without really blowing away any idea of
> congruity across the element space.  So we have the "type" element.
>
> Make sense?
>

Yes it does now.

Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,
outside of any elements.  Is it simply a stylistic difference to define it
inside another element?

thanks,
alan



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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Wed Jan  5 21:59:37 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com>
Message-ID: <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net>

Alan Santos wrote:
> 
> > Dah!  I'm asleep today... the reason you need <type> is because you can
> > specify explicit named types:
> >
> > <type name="myType">
> >   <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> >   <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="integer" />
> > </type>
> >
> > <element name="myElement" type="myType" />
> >
> > There is no way without the <type> element construct to specify a name
> > for a non-primitive data type without really blowing away any idea of
> > congruity across the element space.  So we have the "type" element.
> >
> > Make sense?
> >
> 
> Yes it does now.
> 
> Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,
> outside of any elements.  Is it simply a stylistic difference to define it
> inside another element?

Nope.  This:

<element name="element1">
  <type>
    <element name="element2" type="string" />
  </type>
</element>

is an implicit element type.  It is used right there and not
referenceable by any other element.

This:

<type name="type1">
  <element name="element2" type="string" />
</type>

is an explicit element type and is referenceable by other elements:

<element name="element1" type="type1" />

This:

<type>
  <element name="element2" type="String" />
</type>

is absolutely useless, as it is not referenceable by any other element,
and is not implicitly assigned to any other element.

Finally, the last permutation:

<element name="element1">
  <type name="type1">
    <element name="element2" type="string" />
  </type>
</element>

is legal, and the type is referenceable by other elements, but is bad
form (IMHO).  If you have a type that will be used multiple times, put
it on its own (explicit type).  If it is only used once, use an implicit
type within the element definition.  Things like this are very
confusing.

-Brett

> 
> thanks,
> alan

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan  5 23:12:13 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: "plain" element for HTML/XHTML
In-Reply-To: <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001051739290.18283-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

Dear XHTML Working Group,

  I would like to propose a new element, "plain", which
  has no attributes, and forbids any content other than
  zero or more characters.  The "plain" element would be
  another alternation in the BNF text production.

  Thus, the following mixed-content HTML:

     <html><body>Mixed 
       <b>content</b></body></html>
  
  Would be "display equivalent" to:

     <html><body><plain>Mixed
        </plain><b><plain>content</plain></b></body></html>

  Benefits:

  1. This would allow the data structures for an HTML
     processor/editor to avoid "text node type" and
     its related mixed-content issues.  

  2. The <plain> tag is both forward and backwards 
     compatible. 

  Rationale:

  I've been involved with numerous discussions over the
  last month on the sml-dev list over the complications
  that are created using mixed-content.  Specifically,
  how text nodes are difficult to manage programmatically
  through DOM.  I've also experienced a good deal of pain
  with regard to this problem myself.  

  On the sml-dev list, we've come up with an information 
  model that avoids mixed-content issues by allowing a
  node to either have one or more characters, or zero or
  more child nodes, but not both.   We would like to
  be able use HTML from our SML model.

  Also, since I am currently able to use the <plain>
  tag on the bulk of browsers today, this is a workable
  solution that has been implemented and tested.
  It would be great to have the tag name reserved as
  part of the HTML standard.


Thank you for your time and consideration,

Clark C. Evans

P.S.  If you are interested in issues like this
please visit the sml-dev mailing list at egroups.com 






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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 23:10:35 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net>
Message-ID: <002801bf57d2$cb2017d0$5914c897@odi.com>

> >
> > Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,

Sorry, I meant to say <type name='xxx'>,  I'm pretty clear on type now.
Thanks very much.

You may have missed another question in a previous email....

At one point you had made a critical remark regarding XML schema to model a
class...

"Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
(therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema."

Originally, this is what I was trying to use an XML Schema to do (that is:
store class info), and use an XML document to store instance values. (Sort
of a simplified XMI)

I'm not sure I can do this, in any manner that doesn't break XML schemas.
There doesn't appear to be a mechanism in place to expand the functionality
of XML-Schemas

But if it is possible, I'm interested in why you feel this is a bad idea?

(BTW, I think this is similar to what was done with Quick)

Finally, .

thanks,
alan



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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:19:00 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:02 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: John Aldridge's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:49:43 +0000"
References: <3.0.6.32.20000105184943.00aae430@mailhost>
Message-ID: <f5bzouk150f.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:

> At 09:22 04/01/00 -0500, "Roger L. Costello" <costello@mitre.org> wrote:
> 
> >There has been a considerable amount of discussion (and confusion) on
> >how an XML instance document indicates the XML Schema(s) that it
> >conforms to.  I am not sure that it is yet clear in people's minds on
> >how to do it.  I will take a stab at explaining it, based upon the
> >discussions.
> 
> (snip very helpful exposition)
> 
> I'm still struggling, however to understand how this is all intended to
> work in an environment which is not continuously connected to the internet.
>  Even on machines which are themseleves well connected, it's surely
> unacceptable to have one's data become unusable because the machine in
> Outer Mongolia which holds the schema has crashed.
> 
> Note that this is not just a matter of validation, because the schema can
> supply default attribute values.  The data can become meaningless in the
> absence of a schema.
> 
> I'd hoped to find a statement such as "a general-purpose schema-aware
> processor must provide some catalogue facility which allows the
> specification of a location from which to fetch the schema corresponding to
> an NS URI.  Only in the absence of such a catalogue entry may the processor
> attempt to dereference the URI given by the schemaLocation attribute".

As I've tried to convey in other messages in this and related threads, 
the XML Schema design is VERY concerned with precisely the issue you
raise above, namely, schema validation should not be a hostage to
connectivity and/or URL stability.  Our approach was, however, NOT to
design YACM (Yet Another Catalog Mechanism), but allow for ANY
alternative schema location mechanism which people come up with.  I
hope a careful reading of chapter 4 of the PWD [1] will clarify this
for you.

For myself, I envisage schema validators working the in a similar way
to XT, James Clark's XSLT implementation: you will be able to invoke a
schema validator with explicit specification of the schema(s) you wish
applied, or you can leave it to the validator (Not an option XT
provides).  The XML Schema PWD allows for one, the other, or both, but
observes that only the schemaLocation approach gives interoperability
(at the price of fragility).

> I'm also puzzled about the semantics of a namespace declaration without a
> corresponding schemaLocation attribute.  Does it mean:
> 
> (a) Names in the namespace do not have an association to a schema.  No
> validation is to be performed (and no attribute defaults are to be supplied).

Certainly not.  See chapter 4 again, and the discussion above.  The
validator is allowed to dereference the namespace URI, or look it up
in a catalog, or . . .

> (b) Unless the processor provides some alternative method of locating the
> applicable schema, then the data cannot be interpreted and an error occurs.

That will always be true, regardless of how things are specified:  a
schema validator confronted with a document with elements in a
namespace for which it neither is given nor can discover a schema will 
necessarily declare defeat.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Wed Jan  5 23:25:25 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
References: <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost> <m33dsdcysb.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3873154C.836BB19@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> > class QName {
> > public:
> >     wstring ns () const;           // http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml
> >     wstring name () const;         // p
> >     wstring nsPrefix () const;     // html
> >     wstring prefixedName () const; // html:p
> >
> >     bool operator== (const QName &rhs) const;
> >                                    // ns & name both equal
> > private:
> >     // Probably just a simple pointer to your internal data structures
> > };
> 
> My biggest problem with this (and its Java equivalent) is figuring out
> how to handle equality: are two QNames with the same URI part and same
> local part equal?  What if the prefix is different?

What about adding a second method "identical 
(QName compare)" that takes also the prefix 
into account?  I think it's consistent if the
default method (equals () / ==) ignores the "noise".

A QName object could also help for the attributes: 
If the Sax2 AttributeListImpl is implemented like the
Sax1 list, it would have up to four Vectors:

class AttributeListImpl {
   Vector prefixedNames;
   Vector localNames;
   Vector prefixes;
   Vector namespaces;

   ...
}

Adding an attribute and creating or clearing an 
AttributeList (= manipulating four Vectors) would 
be extremely expensive.

class AttributeList {
   Vector QNames;      // better: ArrayList !

   Qname getAttribute (int index);
   ...
}

seems much cheaper, especially if the QName objects are interned.....

Best regards

Stefan

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:30:48 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
In-Reply-To: "Alan Santos"'s message of "Wed, 5 Jan 2000 14:26:26 -0500"
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com>
Message-ID: <f5bvh5814gw.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Alan Santos" <asantos@odi.com> writes:

>  I'm trying to wrap my head around the XMLSchema drafts to determine their
> immediate usefulness (to myself), and have some very basic questions.
> 
> 1)  What is the difference between an archetype, type and datatype?
> When is one used in place of the other.

Archetypes are gone.  Simple types constraint the string value of
attributes and the string content of textonly elements.  Complex types
constrain the content and attributes of any elements.  Simple types
are defined via the <datatype> element; Complex types are defined via
the <type> element.

> 2) Is multiple inheritance not supported for derived types?

No.

> 2a) How is inheritance supported? Is it possible to access the elements of a
> types source without manually doing the traversal, or is inheritance only
> useful in the instance document?

Not sure I understand the question.  Derived types 'inherit', with or
without modification, all the constraints of their source type.  The
post-schema-validation-infoset includes information about the type
used to validate every element and attribute information item therein.

> 3) Is it possible to use the schema for application specific requirements.
>   For example, I'm basing my schema on a Java class model and would like to
> specify the Java class name in the schema.  The only way I can see is to
> wrap it in an <annotation/>.

There is a widespread need for this functionality, c.f. the Cambridge
Communique [1].  Schema-internal specification of this information is
not explicitly supported, except as you say in a general way via
<appinfo>, in the current PWD.

> 3a) Likewise, certain <elements> may actually refer to another type, so I
> want to do something like:
> <element name="thePrice" type="reference" referentType="Price">

I THINK what you want is to declare an element or attribute as
pointing (via a URL, or IDREF, or keyref) to something of a specified
type.  XML Schema as such does not give you this facility with full
generality, although the <key>/<keyref> facility can achieve something
close to this for on-board links.  Validiting such a constraint for
off-board links is outside the scope of XML Schema in my view.  

> Maybe I would just be better off with another XML instance document
> describing the class model?

XML Schema is about syntax, not semantics (much).  There are languages 
designed to describe semantics, e.g. RDF and UML.

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/schema-arch
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:37:01 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
In-Reply-To: Brett McLaughlin's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 13:38:14 -0600"
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net>
Message-ID: <f5br9fw146h.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Brett McLaughlin <bmclaugh@algx.net> writes:

> Alan Santos wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> >  I'm trying to wrap my head around the XMLSchema drafts to determine their
> > immediate usefulness (to myself), and have some very basic questions.
> > 
> > 1)  What is the difference between an archetype, type and datatype?
> > When is one used in place of the other.
> 
> <archetype> is gone, replaced by <type>, which is used for specifying
> non-"primitive" (i.e. predefined) types for elements.
> 
> <datatype> is for doing the same sort of operation on attributes.
> 
> for example:
> 
> <element name="myElement">
>   <type>
>     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
>     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
>     <attribute name="isPrimary">
>       <datatype content="empty" />
>     </attribute>
>     <attribute name="focus">
>       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
>         <enumeration value="Java" />
>         <enumeration value="C" />
>         <enumeration value="XML" />
>       </datatype>
>     </attribute>
>   </type>
> </element>

The spirit of the above is entirely correct, there are a few mistakes
in the details.  For the overall story, see my reply to the original
post.

The example above is not quite schema-valid, as follows:

> <element name="myElement">
>   <type>
>     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
>     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
>     <attribute name="isPrimary">
>       <datatype content="empty" />
                  ^^^^^^^
         not allowed on <datatype>, I guess you want something like
         <attribute name="isPrimary" type="boolean"/>
>     </attribute>
>     <attribute name="focus">
>       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
                  ^^^^^^^
         again, not quite right, I think you mean source="NMTOKEN"
>         <enumeration value="Java" />
>         <enumeration value="C" />
>         <enumeration value="XML" />
>       </datatype>
>     </attribute>
>   </type>
> </element>

Not surprisingly, I'm more positive about the utility of type
derivation than you are :-).

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:41:05 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
In-Reply-To: Brett McLaughlin's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 15:59:02 -0600"
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net>
Message-ID: <f5bn1qk13zn.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Brett McLaughlin <bmclaugh@algx.net> writes:

> Alan Santos wrote:
> > 
> > > Dah!  I'm asleep today... the reason you need <type> is because you can
> > > specify explicit named types:
> > >
> > > <type name="myType">
> > >   <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> > >   <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="integer" />
> > > </type>
> > >
> > > <element name="myElement" type="myType" />
> > >
> > > There is no way without the <type> element construct to specify a name
> > > for a non-primitive data type without really blowing away any idea of
> > > congruity across the element space.  So we have the "type" element.
> > >
> > > Make sense?
> > >
> > 
> > Yes it does now.
> > 
> > Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,
> > outside of any elements.  Is it simply a stylistic difference to define it
> > inside another element?
> 
> Nope.  This:
> 
> <element name="element1">
>   <type>
>     <element name="element2" type="string" />
>   </type>
> </element>
> 
> is an implicit element type.  It is used right there and not
> referenceable by any other element.

Right.  I'd call it an anonymous complex type.

> This:
> 
> <type name="type1">
>   <element name="element2" type="string" />
> </type>
> 
> is an explicit element type and is referenceable by other elements:
> 
> <element name="element1" type="type1" />

Right.  I'd call it a top-level or named complex type.

> This:
> 
> <type>
>   <element name="element2" type="String" />
> </type>
> 
> is absolutely useless, as it is not referenceable by any other element,
> and is not implicitly assigned to any other element.

Furthermore, it's not allowed:  top-level types MUST have a name
attribute.  The schema for schemas expresses this constraint.

> Finally, the last permutation:
> 
> <element name="element1">
>   <type name="type1">
>     <element name="element2" type="string" />
>   </type>
> </element>
> 
> is legal, and the type is referenceable by other elements, but is bad
> form (IMHO).  If you have a type that will be used multiple times, put
> it on its own (explicit type).  If it is only used once, use an implicit
> type within the element definition.  Things like this are very
> confusing.

First real misunderstanding:  this is NOT allowed:  only top-level
types can have names.  Again, the schema for schemas expresses this
constraint.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From asantos at odi.com  Wed Jan  5 23:50:22 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <f5bvh5814gw.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <002501bf57d8$59ee5fd0$5914c897@odi.com>


> There is a widespread need for this functionality, c.f. the Cambridge
> Communique [1].  Schema-internal specification of this information is
> not explicitly supported, except as you say in a general way via
> <appinfo>, in the current PWD.

I'm not familiar with the Cambridge Communique.  The link returned a 404.
After a bit of searching, I was able to find references to it in the list
archives.   The refrences seem very applicable.

Is it possible you mistyped the link?  I'd like to look into it further.


> I THINK what you want is to declare an element or attribute as
> pointing (via a URL, or IDREF, or keyref) to something of a specified
> type.  XML Schema as such does not give you this facility with full
> generality, although the <key>/<keyref> facility can achieve something
> close to this for on-board links.  Validiting such a constraint for
> off-board links is outside the scope of XML Schema in my view.
>

Yes, this is what I meant.
The key/keyref is a possibility I hadn't explored.

Thanks for the help,
alan


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:50:50 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk's message of "05 Jan 2000 23:18:56 +0000"
References: <3.0.6.32.20000105184943.00aae430@mailhost> <f5bzouk150f.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <f5bembw13jd.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Oops, forgot my reference for chapter 4 of the PWD [1].  Here it is.

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xmlschema-1-19991217/#composition
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan  5 23:55:54 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
In-Reply-To: "Alan Santos"'s message of "Wed, 5 Jan 2000 18:55:29 -0500"
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <f5bvh5814gw.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <002501bf57d8$59ee5fd0$5914c897@odi.com>
Message-ID: <f5baemk13b0.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Yes, sorry, mistyped the URL for the Cambridge Communique [1].

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/schema-arch
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan  5 23:58:34 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: Leigh Dodds's message of "Wed, 5 Jan 2000 15:47:06 -0000"
References: <000b01bf5794$1e83e580$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m3aemk6phl.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Leigh Dodds <ldodds@ingenta.com> writes:

> > In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
> > behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java if any
> > of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of sets, for
> > example.
> 
> In this instance though your level of surprise is going to relate 
> to how familiar you are with the Namespaces spec.

Expect close to zero, here -- judging by the e-mail I receive, most
people who use SAX haven't even read the XML 1.0 REC much less the
Namespaces REC, and I wouldn't expect them to have done so.  After
all, they're programmers who have to deal with XML as one (often
small) part of their work, not XML specialists.  

I should note that I've never read the Java Language Specification or
the the Unicode spec (either of them) cover-to-cover, though I work
with Java and Unicode almost daily.

[snip]

> The problem though boils down to how often, in reality, XML instances 
> will have the same Namespace declared twice, with different prefixes.

The fact that the bug would be rare makes it worse -- an application
will run perfectly for, say, 18 months, then will suddenly and
inexplicably blow up long after the original programmers have moved on
because one input document happened to declare the same NS twice and
the programmers didn't build in error recovery for that problem.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From francis at redrice.com  Thu Jan  6 00:22:37 2000
From: francis at redrice.com (Francis Norton)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Wish lists for the Holidays
References: <199912290254.TAA00954@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3873E05C.BF6A380C@redrice.com>

Yes, I'm guessing that the interoperability here depends on using these
two specific implementations. "Architectural" was my hand-wavy way of
saying that I was wondering about a solution that was implementation
independent. 

As David Brownell points out, this could be achieved by having an
xpath-in-DOM implementation that ran on top of your DOM. That way your
xpath expressions could return live DOM nodes and you'd avoid DOM bloat.
Though I'm not sure that such a nicely de-coupled approach would be as
efficient as the messier bloatware implementations that do it all in
one?

BTW, I like the factory proposal that you recommended to Lauren Wood to
avoid spec bloat.

Thanks -

Francis.  

uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> 
> > I get the impression that my desire to have xpath included in the DOM
> > may be naive, but I haven't yet formed a clear picture of the
> > alternatives. Is there an architectural solution which would allow one
> > to plug any arbitrary (but compatible) xpath processor in to a DOM
> > processor? And then use it to select nodes from a document that has been
> > opened in the DOM, and then update those nodes using the DOM?
> 
> I don't know whether it's what you term an "architectural solution", but
> 4XPath and 4DOM allow such manipulation right now:
>

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Thu Jan  6 00:21:28 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <f5br9fw146h.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3873E052.310A4731@algx.net>



"Henry S. Thompson" wrote:
> 
> Brett McLaughlin <bmclaugh@algx.net> writes:
> 
> > Alan Santos wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > >  I'm trying to wrap my head around the XMLSchema drafts to determine their
> > > immediate usefulness (to myself), and have some very basic questions.
> > >
> > > 1)  What is the difference between an archetype, type and datatype?
> > > When is one used in place of the other.
> >
> > <archetype> is gone, replaced by <type>, which is used for specifying
> > non-"primitive" (i.e. predefined) types for elements.
> >
> > <datatype> is for doing the same sort of operation on attributes.
> >
> > for example:
> >
> > <element name="myElement">
> >   <type>
> >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> >       <datatype content="empty" />
> >     </attribute>
> >     <attribute name="focus">
> >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
> >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> >         <enumeration value="C" />
> >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> >       </datatype>
> >     </attribute>
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> 
> The spirit of the above is entirely correct, there are a few mistakes
> in the details.  For the overall story, see my reply to the original
> post.
> 
> The example above is not quite schema-valid, as follows:
> 
> > <element name="myElement">
> >   <type>
> >     <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="string" />
> >     <attribute name="isPrimary">
> >       <datatype content="empty" />

Sorry, I meant that to be an element, and to be an empty one.  


>                   ^^^^^^^
>          not allowed on <datatype>, I guess you want something like
>          <attribute name="isPrimary" type="boolean"/>
> >     </attribute>
> >     <attribute name="focus">
> >       <datatype content="NMTOKENS">
>                   ^^^^^^^
>          again, not quite right, I think you mean source="NMTOKEN"

Yes, of course ;-)

> >         <enumeration value="Java" />
> >         <enumeration value="C" />
> >         <enumeration value="XML" />
> >       </datatype>
> >     </attribute>
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> 
> Not surprisingly, I'm more positive about the utility of type
> derivation than you are :-).

You better be, you're on the WG, right? ;-)

-Brett

> 
> ht
> --
>   Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
>      2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
>             Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
>                      URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Thu Jan  6 00:22:46 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net> <f5bn1qk13zn.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3873E0A5.B17E7756@algx.net>



"Henry S. Thompson" wrote:
> 
> Brett McLaughlin <bmclaugh@algx.net> writes:
> 
> > Alan Santos wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dah!  I'm asleep today... the reason you need <type> is because you can
> > > > specify explicit named types:
> > > >
> > > > <type name="myType">
> > > >   <element name="nestedElement" type="string" />
> > > >   <element name="anotherNestedElement" type="integer" />
> > > > </type>
> > > >
> > > > <element name="myElement" type="myType" />
> > > >
> > > > There is no way without the <type> element construct to specify a name
> > > > for a non-primitive data type without really blowing away any idea of
> > > > congruity across the element space.  So we have the "type" element.
> > > >
> > > > Make sense?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Yes it does now.
> > >
> > > Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,
> > > outside of any elements.  Is it simply a stylistic difference to define it
> > > inside another element?
> >
> > Nope.  This:
> >
> > <element name="element1">
> >   <type>
> >     <element name="element2" type="string" />
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> >
> > is an implicit element type.  It is used right there and not
> > referenceable by any other element.
> 
> Right.  I'd call it an anonymous complex type.
> 
> > This:
> >
> > <type name="type1">
> >   <element name="element2" type="string" />
> > </type>
> >
> > is an explicit element type and is referenceable by other elements:
> >
> > <element name="element1" type="type1" />
> 
> Right.  I'd call it a top-level or named complex type.
> 
> > This:
> >
> > <type>
> >   <element name="element2" type="String" />
> > </type>
> >
> > is absolutely useless, as it is not referenceable by any other element,
> > and is not implicitly assigned to any other element.
> 
> Furthermore, it's not allowed:  top-level types MUST have a name
> attribute.  The schema for schemas expresses this constraint.

Good, this is new in the 12-17 draft, right?  (I was great on the old
one, am getting the new one down ASAP...thanks for help).

> 
> > Finally, the last permutation:
> >
> > <element name="element1">
> >   <type name="type1">
> >     <element name="element2" type="string" />
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> >
> > is legal, and the type is referenceable by other elements, but is bad
> > form (IMHO).  If you have a type that will be used multiple times, put
> > it on its own (explicit type).  If it is only used once, use an implicit
> > type within the element definition.  Things like this are very
> > confusing.
> 
> First real misunderstanding:  this is NOT allowed:  only top-level
> types can have names.  Again, the schema for schemas expresses this
> constraint.

Again, good.  I know you could do this in archetypes under some parsers
(Schema-valid).  Happy to see this was cleared up.

-Brett

> 
> ht
> --
>   Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
>      2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
>             Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
>                      URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From bmclaugh at algx.net  Thu Jan  6 00:33:54 2000
From: bmclaugh at algx.net (Brett McLaughlin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net> <002801bf57d2$cb2017d0$5914c897@odi.com>
Message-ID: <3873E33B.41C0539E@algx.net>



Alan Santos wrote:
> 
> > >
> > > Syntactically it appears to be legal to simply have <type> on it's own,
> 
> Sorry, I meant to say <type name='xxx'>,  I'm pretty clear on type now.
> Thanks very much.
> 
> You may have missed another question in a previous email....
> 
> At one point you had made a critical remark regarding XML schema to model a
> class...
> 
> "Your schema is one-to-one with a Java class?  This wouldn't be a good
> idea, unless I'm misunderstanding your intent.  Maybe your _XML_ is
> based on a class, and it specifies the class, but then multiple XML docs
> (therefore multiple classes) all use the same Schema."
> 
> Originally, this is what I was trying to use an XML Schema to do (that is:
> store class info), and use an XML document to store instance values. (Sort
> of a simplified XMI)

I'll be very blunt; I think XML is great as a data representation.  I
think it is not quite there for mapping of objects.  What you are
talking about, I actually have built to a great extent in XML, so I can
graph Java objects (and instances of those objects) for an XML-RPC
application to talk across a network.  I just don't think it is
necessarily there yet.

I still am not sure why you would want this graphing?  Even in my
XML-RPC, I found that most times it was worth the cost to completely
graph an object/instance, it was worth using RMI.  It was only when
making procedural calls that returned simple primitives or very simple
objects that XML-RPC shone (although it's highly recommended for those
purposes).

Why not use the schema for more of a constraining validation scenario? 
It is fairly simple to use almost the exact same XML document to
represent both an object in general and an instance of said object.  In
fact, I could create a dirty XML map of an object, that could be
"extended" (in this case, I mean elements added/attributes changed)
without changing the original elements to represent any given instance. 
Then my schema is across all Java objects, ensuring that other apps can
"understand" and de-map what I am sending them.  All in all, a better
solution, I think.  Certainly faster... schema validation ain't quick
yet ;-)  Although with SAX2 I know that will improve much (b/c of
standard interface - more heads = better solutions).

> 
> I'm not sure I can do this, in any manner that doesn't break XML schemas.
> There doesn't appear to be a mechanism in place to expand the functionality
> of XML-Schemas

As Henry pointed out, there are what I would consider "hacks" and
"back-doors" that make it *possible*.

> 
> But if it is possible, I'm interested in why you feel this is a bad idea?

I think you are better to do this sort of thing in raw Java.  Of course,
I still haven't seen what you are trying to accomplish, so maybe that
would help ;-)

-Brett

> 
> (BTW, I think this is similar to what was done with Quick)
> 
> Finally, .
> 
> thanks,
> alan

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From asantos at odi.com  Thu Jan  6 03:54:48 2000
From: asantos at odi.com (Alan Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Basic XMLSchema questions
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net> <002801bf57d2$cb2017d0$5914c897@odi.com> <3873E33B.41C0539E@algx.net>
Message-ID: <006201bf57fa$809fcca0$5914c897@odi.com>


> I think you are better to do this sort of thing in raw Java.  Of course,
> I still haven't seen what you are trying to accomplish, so maybe that
> would help ;-)
>

I'm building something very similar to what you have described.

Here's a quick list of my requirements:
1) We need to be able to create/modify the contents of an OODBMS (Which is
either Java/C++ classes and instances, and more dynamic structures modeled
to look like a Java/c++ class/instance) in a non-programmatic manner

2) Dump/load the database contents to/from text

3) Ship data around via CORBA, RMI or http (We don't want to dictate the
transport mechanism) to clients written in an unknown language

4) Import data into various editors or viewers (including browsers).

Number 3 is the most critical, and also most useful to applications outside
my particular implementation.

So obviously I don't need to explain, but the big issue is the need to
verify that data described via XML is 'correct' (e.g. modeled classes
contain the correct members and members are the correct type) and uniform
across and within all documents that are used.

This was solved in the past by creating my own XMLschema like document. I
was hoping to implement in a more standard manner this time around.   I
think XMI is that standard manner (it's been submitted to the OMG), but it's
way more complex than I need, and it's about twice as long as the XML Schema
standard.  Sun is also doing something similar.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, but it may be better to take the
discussion of the list, as we may be straying from it's purpose, and this
list has enough traffic already :)

thanks,
alan




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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Thu Jan  6 04:14:39 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 11:41:05 PST."
             <38739E51.973765FA@pacbell.net> 
Message-ID: <200001060414.VAA05483@localhost.localdomain>

> Tim Bray wrote:

> > At 10:32 AM 1/5/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> > >Namespace URIs clearly have three kinds of values, not that
> > >it's specified in the namespace spec very clearly (and I suspect DOM L2
> > >may need tweaking to get this right):
> > >
> > >       - Undeclared (null?)
> > >       - Declared as no-value (empty string, "")
> > >       - Some URI (the case folk focus on).
> > 
> > No.  The second case is explicitly ruled out by the namespace spec.  Check
> > sections 2 and 5.2 of the namespace spec.
> 
> I think you've gotten confused by the multiple iterations on this
> topic.  Likely not the only person!

To my reading, you're the one confused.  You explicitly said that "Namespace 
URIs clearly have three kinds of values..." and went on to list one of them as 
'Declared as no-value (empty string, "")', implying, to my mind, that SAX must 
deal with this case.  Tim rejoined that this case is erroneous, implying to my 
mind that it need not be dealt with in the SAX interface, but in 
error-handling.  I think Tim's clarification has eliminated a lot of the 
difficulty you were making about David Megginson's latest proposal.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
FourThought LLC, IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://FourThought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org



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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Thu Jan  6 04:21:46 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Wish lists for the Holidays 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 06 Jan 2000 00:22:52 GMT."
             <3873E05C.BF6A380C@redrice.com> 
Message-ID: <200001060421.VAA05509@localhost.localdomain>

> As David Brownell points out, this could be achieved by having an
> xpath-in-DOM implementation that ran on top of your DOM. That way your
> xpath expressions could return live DOM nodes and you'd avoid DOM bloat.
> Though I'm not sure that such a nicely de-coupled approach would be as
> efficient as the messier bloatware implementations that do it all in
> one?

I very often run into non-rigourous invocations of "DOM bloat".  Note that DOM 
is a very large interface, but there is no reason that implementations have to 
be large as well.

> BTW, I like the factory proposal that you recommended to Lauren Wood to
> avoid spec bloat.

I wish I could take credit for the excellent idea, but I can't.  Leigh Dodds 
is the scurvy scoundrel in this case.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
FourThought LLC, IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://FourThought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org



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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Thu Jan  6 04:45:51 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: WISH! Open Source XML Editor
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19991224135813.009b9380@pop3.demon.co.uk>
References: <m31z8dn9i8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200001060440.UAA16322@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 24 Dec 99, at 13:58, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:

> The lack of an API for an editor effectively makes it impossible for people
> to develop a modular approach. Many of the "non-textual" DTD/schemas will
> require specialist editors (my own interest is chemistry, but Math,
> Geography/maps, SVG, etc are all similar). We need to be able to
> concentrate *just* on the domain-specific parts of our subject, and not to
> be concerned with general structural or technical editing.

What do you need that you don't get from, for example, the DOM + 
the SVG DOM for editing SVG? I've been encouraging anyone who 
will listen to me to define their own DTD/schema-specific DOMs on 
top of the DOM for domain-specific work; MathML, SVG and SMIL 
are all doing this, for example, and I see no reason why others 
shouldn't as well. 


Lauren

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan  6 04:47:48 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Wish lists for the Holidays
References: <200001060421.VAA05509@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38741E55.4887CC90@pacbell.net>

uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> 
> > As David Brownell points out, this could be achieved by having an
> > xpath-in-DOM implementation that ran on top of your DOM. That way your
> > xpath expressions could return live DOM nodes and you'd avoid DOM bloat.
> > Though I'm not sure that such a nicely de-coupled approach would be as
> > efficient as the messier bloatware implementations that do it all in
> > one?
> 
> I very often run into non-rigourous invocations of "DOM bloat".  Note that
> DOM is a very large interface, 

... and constantly adding more functionality to it is the "bloat"
to which I referred.  The point's been raised that some of the
current functionality might well be completed, before adding any
newer functionality.  (Everything DTD-related is incomplete, since
one can't start with an empty DOM tree and add those functionalities
without requiring proprietary extensions.)

There's a concept called "software layering" that I adhere to -- I'm
sure you know it well.  Modules can use DOM without being bundled into
DOM itself.  XPath can (and IMHO should) be such a layer.

- Dave

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From lenst at lysator.liu.se  Thu Jan  6 07:59:51 2000
From: lenst at lysator.liu.se (Lennart Staflin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: PSGML-1.2.1 problems
In-Reply-To: Eoin Lane's message of "Mon, 06 Dec 1999 15:01:28 +0000"
References: <384BCFC8.25F7721E@esatclear.ie>
Message-ID: <m2k8loxn6r.fsf@pc-lennarts.infotek.no>

[Eoin Lane]
| I'm trying to write a xml doc with emacs configured to use psgml-1.2.1
| but am having some problems. I have checked that psgml works with a
| simple dtd. However when I use the dtd (document-v10.dtd) below I get
| the following error.
| 
| ~/character.ent line 2 col 12 entity common.att
| ~/document-v10.dtd line 218 col 29 entity DOCUMENT
| ~/installing.xml line 3 col 51
| Name expected; at: :lang

The error suggests that the dtd is parsed with the normal SGML syntax
instead of the XML syntax. Could it be that buffer with
"installing.xml" is using sgml-mode instead of xml-mode?

(The "~/character.ent" in the first line of the error message is
misleading. Bug some where :)

-- 
Lennart Staflin <lenst@lysator.liu.se>        /*/         (:ABSOLUTE :WILD)

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From vinokurov at mail.ru  Thu Jan  6 10:36:13 2000
From: vinokurov at mail.ru (Nikita Vinokurov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: XMLSchema  implementation
Message-ID: <00010613391200.04124@sorokin.rphys.mipt.ru>

Hi !
I would like to know is there any good implementation of  XMLSchema nodes
in terms of Java classes.
It is very interesting to parse XMLSchema document  and build on its base
the Objects hierarchy like DOM?

Many thanks.
-- 
Nikita Vinokurov
Project Manager
YAGEL Open Source company
http://yagel.newmail.ru

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Thu Jan  6 10:41:35 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: WISH! Open Source XML Editor
References: <m31z8dn9i8.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <200001060440.UAA16322@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <38747134.270D09FE@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Lauren Wood wrote:
> 
> > The lack of an API for an editor effectively makes it impossible for people
> > to develop a modular approach. Many of the "non-textual" DTD/schemas will
> > require specialist editors (my own interest is chemistry, but Math,
> > Geography/maps, SVG, etc are all similar). We need to be able to
> > concentrate *just* on the domain-specific parts of our subject, and not to
> > be concerned with general structural or technical editing.
> 
> What do you need that you don't get from, for example, the DOM +
> the SVG DOM for editing SVG? I've been encouraging anyone who
> will listen to me to define their own DTD/schema-specific DOMs on
> top of the DOM for domain-specific work; MathML, SVG and SMIL
> are all doing this, for example, and I see no reason why others
> shouldn't as well.

I think what Peter was talking about is an editing interface where
specialized editors can hook in, and that provides a general default
editor where the specialization is not needed. 

Something you feed a DOM node in and get e.g. a JComponent out. You can
register your own constructors for elements, and if you don't, you get a
default
JComponent. 

something like

class DOMEditorFactory {
  registerElementEditor (Sring namespace, String name, Class
editorClass);
  JComponent createEditor (Node node);
}

The registered class would be required to implement a constructor
that takes a pointer back to the factory and a DOM element as input. 
An editor for a node can ask the factory for editors of it's
childs when it is expanded. 

If context-dependent or non-default editors for other than element nodes 
are required, the parent element needs to build the corresponding
component itself. Another possibility would be subclassing the
factory and overwriting createEditor.

Best regards

Stefan

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Thu Jan  6 11:32:42 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: schemas: why no local type bindings?
References: <01cf01bf57b2$c3d53bb0$de4c340c@odi.com> <38739DA6.D844DBC7@algx.net> <004e01bf57ba$54cce170$5914c897@odi.com> <3873B401.BB59B080@algx.net> <3873B7E7.C320C504@algx.net> <004201bf57c7$d69aa270$5914c897@odi.com> <3873BEA6.F227D928@algx.net> <f5bn1qk13zn.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <38747E9D.ADF646DB@mecomnet.de>

i'm working my way into schemas and found the distinction between anonymous
and names types baroque. i need to read further to see what named types can
mean, beyond that which the equivalent entity based definitions would have accomplished.

given, however, that they exist, why pray-tell would one then proscribe local
definitions? wouldn't there just as well be cases where such resemblances
would occur within elements as well as at a global level?

> > Finally, the last permutation:
> >
> > <element name="element1">
> >   <type name="type1">
> >     <element name="element2" type="string" />
> >   </type>
> > </element>
> >
> > is legal, and the type is referenceable by other elements, but is bad
> > form (IMHO).  If you have a type that will be used multiple times, put
> > it on its own (explicit type).  If it is only used once, use an implicit
> > type within the element definition.  Things like this are very
> > confusing.
> 
> First real misunderstanding:  this is NOT allowed:  only top-level
> types can have names.  Again, the schema for schemas expresses this
> constraint.


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan  6 12:05:15 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: DOM and editing [was WISH!...]
In-Reply-To: <200001060440.UAA16322@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>
References: <3.0.1.32.19991224135813.009b9380@pop3.demon.co.uk>
 <m31z8dn9i8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <E126BfD-0002c1-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

At 08:37 PM 1/5/00 -0800, Lauren Wood wrote:
>On 24 Dec 99, at 13:58, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
>> The lack of an API for an editor effectively makes it impossible for people
>> to develop a modular approach. Many of the "non-textual" DTD/schemas will
>> require specialist editors (my own interest is chemistry, but Math,
>> Geography/maps, SVG, etc are all similar). We need to be able to
>> concentrate *just* on the domain-specific parts of our subject, and not to
>> be concerned with general structural or technical editing.
>
>What do you need that you don't get from, for example, the DOM + 
>the SVG DOM for editing SVG? I've been encouraging anyone who 
>will listen to me

Of course I listen!

>to define their own DTD/schema-specific DOMs on 
>top of the DOM for domain-specific work; MathML, SVG and SMIL 
>are all doing this, for example, and I see no reason why others 
>shouldn't as well. 

I am indeed doing this! I have specified and implemented a first pass at
CMLDOM using DOM-1. I ran into a number of problems when building/editing
the DOM. I have been using two implementations, xml-tr2 from SUN and xml4j
(now Xerces). Each of these had extended the DOM interface with methods
such as
setTagName() and
setOwnerDocument()
which I found to be essential for editing. In doing so the 2
implementations diverged and I could not easily extend one without losing
the ability to switch to the other if necessary. (I appreciate that this is
one of the problems that SAXON tackled). I therefore did not have an
implementation of CMLDOM that could be switched from one implementation to
the other. effectively this means that I would have to rewrite the
interface for different editors

If these and related problems are solved in DOM2 I shall be delighted!
DOM2, however, specifically suggests that the interface can be extended,
and it is these extensions that I am afraid of. 

	P.
>


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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Thu Jan  6 12:20:19 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML
  Schema
In-Reply-To: <f5bzouk150f.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:49:43 +0000">
 <3.0.6.32.20000105184943.00aae430@mailhost>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000106121920.00c073c0@mailhost>

At 23:18 05/01/00 +0000, ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) wrote:
>John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:

>> I'd hoped to find a statement such as "a general-purpose schema-aware
>> processor must provide some catalogue facility which allows the
>> specification of a location from which to fetch the schema corresponding to
>> an NS URI.  Only in the absence of such a catalogue entry may the processor
>> attempt to dereference the URI given by the schemaLocation attribute".
>
>As I've tried to convey in other messages in this and related threads, 
>the XML Schema design is VERY concerned with precisely the issue you
>raise above, namely, schema validation should not be a hostage to
>connectivity and/or URL stability.  Our approach was, however, NOT to
>design YACM (Yet Another Catalog Mechanism), but allow for ANY
>alternative schema location mechanism which people come up with.  I
>hope a careful reading of chapter 4 of the PWD [1] will clarify this
>for you.

I did carefully read Chapter 4, honest, but still struggled to understand
the way the flexibility it includes should be used.  Note that I did not
suggest above that the document should include a specific catalogue design;
just that I'd hoped it would mandate the existence of _some_ catalogue.

>For myself, I envisage schema validators working the in a similar way
>to XT, James Clark's XSLT implementation: you will be able to invoke a
>schema validator with explicit specification of the schema(s) you wish
>applied,

By which you mean (I think) "explicit specification of _how to locate_ the
schema(s) you wish applied,".  Presumably you are not intended to be able
to request that elements be validated against a schema with a
targetNamespace which does not match the namespace from which the elements
to be validated are drawn?

>         or you can leave it to the validator (Not an option XT
>provides).  The XML Schema PWD allows for one, the other, or both, but
>observes that only the schemaLocation approach gives interoperability
>(at the price of fragility).

OK, that's very helpful.  So, when writing an XML file, I should start it:

<?xml version="1.0">
<stuff
   xmlns="http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff"
   xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
   xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff
      http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff/Stuff.xsd"
>
:
</data>

And then say to the customers for this data: 

   You must process this data either

   (a) in an environment with reliable access to
       http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff/Stuff.xsd (in which case you
       may use any "general-purpose schema-aware" XML processor), or,

   (b) you are constrained to use only those XML processors which
       allow you to specify that the schema for the namespace
       http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff is to be found in some other
       location accessible to you.

In the context of the obligation "...unless directed otherwise
general-purpose schema-aware processors must attempt to dereference each
schema URI...", the existance of a catalogue or other mechanism for
locating a schema counts as "directed otherwise".

I guess I'm just suspicious that, in the absence of specific requirements,
processors will not bother to implement an such alternative mechanism.
After all, the language quoted in the previous paragraph is very similar to
that describing DTD links:  "An XML processor ... may use the public
identifier to try to generate an alternative URI.  If the processor is
unable to do so, it must use the URI specified in the system literal".

How many DTD-aware processors actually do provide a public identifier based
lookup mechanism?


I also wrote, on what I now believe to be a different topic:

>> I'm also puzzled about the semantics of a namespace declaration without a
>> corresponding schemaLocation attribute.  Does it mean:

(snip)

>> (b) Unless the processor provides some alternative method of locating the
>> applicable schema, then the data cannot be interpreted and an error occurs.
>
>That will always be true, regardless of how things are specified:  a
>schema validator confronted with a document with elements in a
>namespace for which it neither is given nor can discover a schema will 
>necessarily declare defeat.

I guess I was really confused about the relation between schemas and
namespaces.

I understand your answer to mean that by using a name from a namespace, and
then using a schema-aware processor, you are automatically claiming that
the element conforms to the schema for that namespace.

There is no such thing, to a schema-aware processor, as a namespace without
an associated schema.


Thanks for your help, both here and on other topics to which I've not
contributed but have followed with interest.
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From costello at mitre.org  Thu Jan  6 12:44:45 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: ANN: XML Schema Tutorial
Message-ID: <38748E79.F83182B6@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

With a lot of help from this list community and many hours studying the
spec, I have created a tutorial on the latest draft (12-17-99) of the
XML Schema spec.  It is freely available at:

         <http://www.xfront.com/xml-schema.html>

I personally learn best with examples, so the tutorial contains quite a
few examples to demonstrate various features.  

I hope that you find the tutorial beneficial.  If you find any errors,
ommissions, or have suggestions on how to improve it I would appreciate
your feedback so that I may fix/improve it.

I would like to again give special thanks to the following people who
patiently answered my seemingly endless questions:

    - Henry Thompson
    - Andrew Layman
    - Noah Mendelsohn
    - David Beech
    - Rick Jelliffe

/Roger


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jan  6 13:49:08 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: Round 2: How an XML instance document references an XML Schema
In-Reply-To: John Aldridge's message of "Thu, 06 Jan 2000 12:19:20 +0000"
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Wed, 05 Jan 2000 18:49:43 +0000"> <3.0.6.32.20000105184943.00aae430@mailhost> <3.0.6.32.20000106121920.00c073c0@mailhost>
Message-ID: <f5bso0bxqcx.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:

> At 23:18 05/01/00 +0000, ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) wrote:
> >John Aldridge <john.aldridge@informatix.co.uk> writes:
> 
> >> I'd hoped to find a statement such as "a general-purpose schema-aware
> >> processor must provide some catalogue facility which allows the
> >> specification of a location from which to fetch the schema corresponding to
> >> an NS URI.  Only in the absence of such a catalogue entry may the processor
> >> attempt to dereference the URI given by the schemaLocation attribute".
> >
> >As I've tried to convey in other messages in this and related threads, 
> >the XML Schema design is VERY concerned with precisely the issue you
> >raise above, namely, schema validation should not be a hostage to
> >connectivity and/or URL stability.  Our approach was, however, NOT to
> >design YACM (Yet Another Catalog Mechanism), but allow for ANY
> >alternative schema location mechanism which people come up with.  I
> >hope a careful reading of chapter 4 of the PWD [1] will clarify this
> >for you.
> 
> I did carefully read Chapter 4, honest, but still struggled to understand
> the way the flexibility it includes should be used.  Note that I did not
> suggest above that the document should include a specific catalogue design;
> just that I'd hoped it would mandate the existence of _some_ catalogue.
> 
> >For myself, I envisage schema validators working the in a similar way
> >to XT, James Clark's XSLT implementation: you will be able to invoke a
> >schema validator with explicit specification of the schema(s) you wish
> >applied,
> 
> By which you mean (I think) "explicit specification of _how to locate_ the
> schema(s) you wish applied,".  Presumably you are not intended to be able
> to request that elements be validated against a schema with a
> targetNamespace which does not match the namespace from which the elements
> to be validated are drawn?

Both points correct:  how to _locate_, and targetNamespaces must
always match (except in the case where there is none, but that's
another can of worms).

> >         or you can leave it to the validator (Not an option XT
> >provides).  The XML Schema PWD allows for one, the other, or both, but
> >observes that only the schemaLocation approach gives interoperability
> >(at the price of fragility).
> 
> OK, that's very helpful.  So, when writing an XML file, I should start it:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0">
> <stuff
>    xmlns="http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff"
>    xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema/instance"
>    xsi:schemaLocation="http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff
>       http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff/Stuff.xsd"
> >
> :
> </data>
> 
> And then say to the customers for this data: 
> 
>    You must process this data either
> 
>    (a) in an environment with reliable access to
>        http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff/Stuff.xsd (in which case you
>        may use any "general-purpose schema-aware" XML processor), or,
> 
>    (b) you are constrained to use only those XML processors which
>        allow you to specify that the schema for the namespace
>        http://www.informatix.co.uk/Stuff is to be found in some other
>        location accessible to you.

Yes.

> In the context of the obligation "...unless directed otherwise
> general-purpose schema-aware processors must attempt to dereference each
> schema URI...", the existance of a catalogue or other mechanism for
> locating a schema counts as "directed otherwise".

Well, not the existence alone, but the existence plus some indication, 
from user or application choice, to use what exists.

> I guess I'm just suspicious that, in the absence of specific requirements,
> processors will not bother to implement an such alternative mechanism.
> After all, the language quoted in the previous paragraph is very similar to
> that describing DTD links:  "An XML processor ... may use the public
> identifier to try to generate an alternative URI.  If the processor is
> unable to do so, it must use the URI specified in the system literal".

You can't make people provide interoperable solutions, only encourage
them to do so, you're right.

> . . .
>
> I guess I was really confused about the relation between schemas and
> namespaces.
> 
> I understand your answer to mean that by using a name from a namespace, and
> then using a schema-aware processor, you are automatically claiming that
> the element conforms to the schema for that namespace.
> 
> There is no such thing, to a schema-aware processor, as a namespace without
> an associated schema.

That's close, but there are undoubtedly some grey areas.  In the
simplest case: a schema-validator is validating the content of some
element with a schema for its namespace and encounters an element name
from a different namespace.   What happens?  If neither schemaLocation 
nor built-in information nor namespace-URI-based search yield a
schema, there is a problem.  Let's look a little harder at how this
could happen.

1) The instance looks like this

  <a:root xmlns:a='uri:a' xmlns:b='uri:b'>
   <a:a ...>...</a:a>
   <b:b ...>...</b:b>
  </a:root>

  The content model the validator is working with, within a schema for
  the uri:a namespace, looks like this:

  <element ref='a' . . ./>
  <element ref='o:b'/> 

  Now this latter reference is not allowed unless there's an <import>
  statement for it.  But that <import> may not contain a
  'schemaLocation' attribute, or the URI specified there may not be
  accessible, etc.  At that point an error should be raised.

2) The instance is the same, but the relevant content model looks like 
   this:

  <element ref='a' . . ./>
  <any namespace='##other'/>

  This, and related cases, are the grey area mentioned above.  The WG
  has not yet decided exactly what the detailed schema-validation story
  is wrt validation within material which in the first instance is
  allowed by a wildcard particle in a content model.

> Thanks for your help, both here and on other topics to which I've not
> contributed but have followed with interest.

You're welcome:  you, and the rest of xml-dev, are our launch
customers. . . :-)

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From dpotter at mitre.org  Thu Jan  6 15:11:30 2000
From: dpotter at mitre.org (Daniel Potter)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:03 2004
Subject: XML Schema Datatype Questions
References: <002601bf5811$27ea0640$ed6b1b18@houston.rr.com>
Message-ID: <3874B0D8.2089A6D1@mitre.org>

My basic question was really how to include NaN in ranges (although
that's not quite how I phrased it, sorry).  Basically, when I'm writing
a class that implements a datatype, it contains all the facets with
"default" values.  It sets the min/max values to positive/negative
infinity appropriately (as they are represented internally by floats). 
Unfortunately, since all range operations (<, >, etc.) all return false
when NaN is encountered, this means that a need another way of
indicating NaN is legal.

The real problem and what I really meant to ask is how to indicate NaN
should or shouldn't be included (same as your last question).  I can
imagine times when a schema writer would wish to include NaN in a given
range.  A simple example would be using NaN to indicate a float value is
unknown; in a math oriented schema, it might be needed to indicate that
no representable answer was generated.  There are also times when NaN
should not be included, and this is not necessarily all times when there
is a given range to the values.

Curt Arnold wrote:

[snip]

> 
> With the exception of the enumeration facet, all the other facets appear to
> form one big AND.  I'd say the logical formulation is all of the
> non-enumeration facets must be true and one of the enumeration facets must
> be true and you must acceptible to the base type.  (This distinct treatment
> of enumeration is undesirable in my eye.  I'd like something closer to the
> previous form or my earlier suggestion
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/1999OctDec/0022.html where the entire enumeration is one facet and the specific literals are
> child elements of it.  I'm planning on updating that suggestion for the new
> draft.).

I like that suggestion.  Something like:

<enumeration>
  <value>1</value>
  <value>2</value>
  <value>NaN</value>
</enumeration>

?  Seems like it would look nicer too.

> 
> For example,
> 
> <datatype name="oblivion" source="double">
>     <minInclusive value="3"/>
>     <maxInclusive value="4"/>
>     <enumeration value="NAN"/>
> </datatype>
> 
> should have an empty lexical space.  Only NaN passes the enumeration test
> and it is not in the range specified.  Your scenario requires some sort of
> "or" facet and "and" facet.
> 
> <datatype source="double">
>     <or>
>         <and>
>             <minInclusive value="3"/>
>             <maxInclusive value="4"/>
>        </and>
>         <enumeration value="NAN"/>
>     </or>
> </datatype>
> 
> Note: If we were to do that, then add a <not> element to.  That would make
> it simple to disallow a previous enumeration value: such as
> 
> <datatype name="Mon-Thurs" source="Mon-Friday">
>     <not>
>         <enumeration value="Friday"/>
>     </not>
> </datatype>
> 
> There is no constraint saying that
> > > enumeration and min/max
> > > values cannot be set together, which leads me to
> > > believe that they are
> > > combined to describe legal values.)
> 
> With the previous interpretation, you should be able to have any combination
> of facets but they are interpreted as a big AND.  With that explicit
> interpretation, we don't have any ambiguity is someone specifies both a
> minInclusive and a minExclusive and don't have to try to figure which one to
> keep, we can just evaluation both and they both better be true.  Just like
> Java or C++ would allow you to do
> 
>     if(x > 3 && x >= 4)
> 
> The behavior is defined, though the duplicate specification comes at slight
> performance penalty.

This is exactly where I was coming from: creating a datatype with no
legal values by enumerating only illegal values.  According to Ashok
Malhotra in an answer to basically this same question, this is illegal
because it is conflict between facet values (similar to multiple
max(In|Ex)clusive statements).

I think that <and>, <or>, and <not> sections make sense.  There is no
other way to constrain a Mon-Friday type into a Mon-Thur type, although
conceivably Mon-Friday is an extension of Mon-Thur.  But if Mon-Friday
is the datatype from the base schema which someone is basing a new
schema on, then being able to restrict it even further would definately
be useful.

> > > Also relating to float, are the characters case
> > > sensitive?  Can I use
> > > "inf" as a value or does it need to be "INF"?  Is
> > > "6.22e22" legal?  Or
> > > does it need to be "6.22E22"?
> 
> Formulation [34] would indicate that both 6.22e22 and 6.22E22 are legal.
> Formulations [31] and [32] would indicate that the only legal representation
> of infinity is INF and of not an number is NaN (which is inconsistent with
> section 3.2.4.1 which states NAN)

I missed the formulation section when writing that question (oops). 
Thanks for pointing it out!

So which is correct, then, NaN or NAN?  I'm guessing NaN.

 
> > > One last question:  For the binary datatype, what is
> > > the default
> > > encoding?
> > >
> 
> Someone should put a default in or make the encoding a required attribute.

I don't think that it can be made required:

<element name="bindata" type="binary"/>

is legal, and since type might be something other than binary, requiring
encoding would be useless.  Since encoding would be specified doing
something like:

<datatype name="base64binary" source="binary">
   <encoding value="base64"/>
</datatype>

<element name="bindata" type="base64binary"/>

There really ought to be a default encoding so that simply declaring an
element of type binary is meaningful.  I would suggest hex as the
default, since most binary data in XML is more than likely going to be
short and HEX is closer to being human-readable than Base64.

> 
> Now for my question, what is the appropriate way to disallow NaN from a
> datatype without constraining the dataspace.  I'd try the following, but
> maybe should be an explicit solution (or if this one is okay it should be
> added in the draft or some errata)
> 
> <datatype name="noNaN" source="double">
>     <minInclusive value="-INF"/>
> </datatype>

I don't really like the idea that specifying a range eliminates NaN
completely.  As stated above, NaN may be desirable even in a constrained
range.  I would suggest instead another facet which specifies whether or
not NaN can be included, or using the <and> <or> <not> sections which
you suggested above.

- Dan Potter


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Jan  6 15:38:30 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0224@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 6:58 PM

> > The problem though boils down to how often, in reality, XML 
> instances 
> > will have the same Namespace declared twice, with different 
> prefixes.
> 
> The fact that the bug would be rare makes it worse -- an application
> will run perfectly for, say, 18 months, then will suddenly and
> inexplicably blow up long after the original programmers have moved on
> because one input document happened to declare the same NS twice and
> the programmers didn't build in error recovery for that problem.

I don't want to flog any dead horses, so I hope this hasn't been covered
already, but is it really an error to have the same namespace declared
twice, with different prefixes?  i.e., is the following really not legal

<tag xmlns:p1="urn:person:000-000-000"
     xmlns:p2="urn:person:000-000-000">
  <p1:first>John</p1:first>
  <p2:last>Smith</p2:last>
</tag>

And, if that is illegal, is the following legal:

<tag xmlns="urn:person:000-000-000"
     xmlns:p1="urn:person:000-000-000">
<!--etc.-->

I looked through the Namespace spec, but couldn't find anything making this
illegal, so did I miss something, or did I misunderstand the conversation?
(Both equally likely.)

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jan  6 15:53:14 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: ANN: XML Schema Tutorial
In-Reply-To: "Roger L. Costello"'s message of "Thu, 06 Jan 2000 07:45:46 -0500"
References: <38748E79.F83182B6@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <f5bd7rfw61l.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Thank you, Roger, I think your tutorial is excellent.  I didn't see
ANY conceptual errors, and only a very few typoes in a quick
read-through.

"Roger L. Costello" <costello@mitre.org> writes:

> With a lot of help from this list community and many hours studying the
> spec, I have created a tutorial on the latest draft (12-17-99) of the
> XML Schema spec.  It is freely available at:
> 
>          <http://www.xfront.com/xml-schema.html>
> 
> I personally learn best with examples, so the tutorial contains quite a
> few examples to demonstrate various features.  
> 
> I hope that you find the tutorial beneficial.  If you find any errors,
> ommissions, or have suggestions on how to improve it I would appreciate
> your feedback so that I may fix/improve it.
> 
> I would like to again give special thanks to the following people who
> patiently answered my seemingly endless questions:
> 
>     - Henry Thompson
>     - Andrew Layman
>     - Noah Mendelsohn
>     - David Beech
>     - Rick Jelliffe

You're welcome -- your efforts repay more than repay our input.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Thu Jan  6 15:55:46 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0224@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <003201bf585e$791124c0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Hunter, David
> Sent: 06 January 2000 15:37
> To: 'David Megginson'; xml-dev
> Subject: RE: SAX2 Namespace Support

> I don't want to flog any dead horses, so I hope this hasn't been covered
> already, but is it really an error to have the same namespace declared
> twice, with different prefixes?  i.e., is the following really not legal
> 
> <tag xmlns:p1="urn:person:000-000-000"
>      xmlns:p2="urn:person:000-000-000">
>   <p1:first>John</p1:first>
>   <p2:last>Smith</p2:last>
> </tag>

No its not illegal, its perfectly valid according to the spec.
Just nonsensical (at least to me). 

The discussion is relating to the point of whether the 
QNames of the following QNames should compare equal in the Java:

{"p1", "first", "urn:person:000-000-000"}
{"p2", "first", "urn:person:000-000-000"}

If you've read the spec, then the answer seems yes. The 
debate is still open as to what the 'expected' behaviour 
might be in an == or equals() operation.

> And, if that is illegal, is the following legal:
> 
> <tag xmlns="urn:person:000-000-000"
>      xmlns:p1="urn:person:000-000-000">
> <!--etc.-->

Thats legal too.

L.
 


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jan  6 15:55:35 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: XML Schema Datatype Questions
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7461@THOR>

There was a discussion of disjoint ranges in the previous two comments

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/1999OctDec/0034.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/1999OctDec/0040.html

I'd build a datatype that is restricted to 3 <= x <= 4 or x == NaN by something like (using the <and> and <or> elements discussed in earlier messages.

<datatype name="NaNor34" source="double">
	<or>
		<and>
			<minInclusive value="3"/>
			<maxInclusive value="4"/>
		</and>
		<pattern value="NaN"/>
	</or>
</datatype>




-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Potter [mailto:dpotter@mitre.org]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 9:12 AM
To: Curt Arnold; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org
Subject: Re: XML Schema Datatype Questions


My basic question was really how to include NaN in ranges (although
that's not quite how I phrased it, sorry).  Basically, when I'm writing
a class that implements a datatype, it contains all the facets with
"default" values.  It sets the min/max values to positive/negative
infinity appropriately (as they are represented internally by floats). 
Unfortunately, since all range operations (<, >, etc.) all return false
when NaN is encountered, this means that a need another way of
indicating NaN is legal.

The real problem and what I really meant to ask is how to indicate NaN
should or shouldn't be included (same as your last question).  I can
imagine times when a schema writer would wish to include NaN in a given
range.  A simple example would be using NaN to indicate a float value is
unknown; in a math oriented schema, it might be needed to indicate that
no representable answer was generated.  There are also times when NaN
should not be included, and this is not necessarily all times when there
is a given range to the values.

Curt Arnold wrote:

[snip]

> 
> With the exception of the enumeration facet, all the other facets appear to
> form one big AND.  I'd say the logical formulation is all of the
> non-enumeration facets must be true and one of the enumeration facets must
> be true and you must acceptible to the base type.  (This distinct treatment
> of enumeration is undesirable in my eye.  I'd like something closer to the
> previous form or my earlier suggestion
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/1999OctDec/0022.html where the entire enumeration is one facet and the specific literals are
> child elements of it.  I'm planning on updating that suggestion for the new
> draft.).

I like that suggestion.  Something like:

<enumeration>
  <value>1</value>
  <value>2</value>
  <value>NaN</value>
</enumeration>

?  Seems like it would look nicer too.

> 
> For example,
> 
> <datatype name="oblivion" source="double">
>     <minInclusive value="3"/>
>     <maxInclusive value="4"/>
>     <enumeration value="NAN"/>
> </datatype>
> 
> should have an empty lexical space.  Only NaN passes the enumeration test
> and it is not in the range specified.  Your scenario requires some sort of
> "or" facet and "and" facet.
> 
> <datatype source="double">
>     <or>
>         <and>
>             <minInclusive value="3"/>
>             <maxInclusive value="4"/>
>        </and>
>         <enumeration value="NAN"/>
>     </or>
> </datatype>
> 
> Note: If we were to do that, then add a <not> element to.  That would make
> it simple to disallow a previous enumeration value: such as
> 
> <datatype name="Mon-Thurs" source="Mon-Friday">
>     <not>
>         <enumeration value="Friday"/>
>     </not>
> </datatype>
> 
> There is no constraint saying that
> > > enumeration and min/max
> > > values cannot be set together, which leads me to
> > > believe that they are
> > > combined to describe legal values.)
> 
> With the previous interpretation, you should be able to have any combination
> of facets but they are interpreted as a big AND.  With that explicit
> interpretation, we don't have any ambiguity is someone specifies both a
> minInclusive and a minExclusive and don't have to try to figure which one to
> keep, we can just evaluation both and they both better be true.  Just like
> Java or C++ would allow you to do
> 
>     if(x > 3 && x >= 4)
> 
> The behavior is defined, though the duplicate specification comes at slight
> performance penalty.

This is exactly where I was coming from: creating a datatype with no
legal values by enumerating only illegal values.  According to Ashok
Malhotra in an answer to basically this same question, this is illegal
because it is conflict between facet values (similar to multiple
max(In|Ex)clusive statements).

I think that <and>, <or>, and <not> sections make sense.  There is no
other way to constrain a Mon-Friday type into a Mon-Thur type, although
conceivably Mon-Friday is an extension of Mon-Thur.  But if Mon-Friday
is the datatype from the base schema which someone is basing a new
schema on, then being able to restrict it even further would definately
be useful.

> > > Also relating to float, are the characters case
> > > sensitive?  Can I use
> > > "inf" as a value or does it need to be "INF"?  Is
> > > "6.22e22" legal?  Or
> > > does it need to be "6.22E22"?
> 
> Formulation [34] would indicate that both 6.22e22 and 6.22E22 are legal.
> Formulations [31] and [32] would indicate that the only legal representation
> of infinity is INF and of not an number is NaN (which is inconsistent with
> section 3.2.4.1 which states NAN)

I missed the formulation section when writing that question (oops). 
Thanks for pointing it out!

So which is correct, then, NaN or NAN?  I'm guessing NaN.

 
> > > One last question:  For the binary datatype, what is
> > > the default
> > > encoding?
> > >
> 
> Someone should put a default in or make the encoding a required attribute.

I don't think that it can be made required:

<element name="bindata" type="binary"/>

is legal, and since type might be something other than binary, requiring
encoding would be useless.  Since encoding would be specified doing
something like:

<datatype name="base64binary" source="binary">
   <encoding value="base64"/>
</datatype>

<element name="bindata" type="base64binary"/>

There really ought to be a default encoding so that simply declaring an
element of type binary is meaningful.  I would suggest hex as the
default, since most binary data in XML is more than likely going to be
short and HEX is closer to being human-readable than Base64.

> 
> Now for my question, what is the appropriate way to disallow NaN from a
> datatype without constraining the dataspace.  I'd try the following, but
> maybe should be an explicit solution (or if this one is okay it should be
> added in the draft or some errata)
> 
> <datatype name="noNaN" source="double">
>     <minInclusive value="-INF"/>
> </datatype>

I don't really like the idea that specifying a range eliminates NaN
completely.  As stated above, NaN may be desirable even in a constrained
range.  I would suggest instead another facet which specifies whether or
not NaN can be included, or using the <and> <or> <not> sections which
you suggested above.

- Dan Potter


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jan  6 16:49:15 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: PROPOSAL: type assignment based on tag name and presence/absense 
	of attributes
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7463@THOR>

Earlier version of XML Schema (http://www.w3.org/1999/05/06-xmlschema-1/) and many existing XML schemas use distinct tagnames for declaration and reference.  The simplification initiative unified the
tag names but at the lost of a substantial degradation of the effectiveness of validation of schema documents.  This proposal recaptures the validation effectiveness of distinct declaration and
reference elements by allowing element to type binding to be conditional on the presence or absense of an attribute.
For example:
<attrGroup name="myattgroup">
	<attrDecl name="name"/>
	<attrDecl name="id"><datatypeRef name="ID"/></attrDecl>
</attrGroup>
<attrGroupRef name="myattgroup"/>
Since these distinct tag names where associated with different types the content models of the attrGroup and attrGroupRef were different.  You could put a attrDecl in an attrGroup but not in an
attrGroupRef.
The simplification initiative resulted in one tag name that could serve either as a reference or a declaration depending on whether the ref or name attribute was provided.  However this prevents
either DTD or schema processors to detect logically invalid constructs like:
<attributeGroup ref="myattgroup">
	<attribute name="name" type="NMTOKEN"/>
</attributeGroup>
Proposal:
Enhancing the <element> element with additional attributes "withAttribute" and "withoutAttribute" which is the name of an attribute that must (or must not) be present for the association of the tag
name to type be effective.
So for example, attribute would be reworked something like this
<type name="elemDecl" source="annotated" derivedBy="extension">
     <group order="choice" minOccurs="0">
      <element name="datatype" type="anonDatatype"/>
      <element name="type" type="anonType"/>
     </group>
     <group order="choice" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*">
        <element ref="unique"/>
        <element ref="key"/>
        <element ref="keyref"/>
     </group>
     <attributeGroup ref="typeRef"/>
     <attribute name="equivClass" type="QName"/>
     <attributeGroup ref="occurs"/>
     <attributeGroup ref="valueConstraint"/>
     <attribute name="nullable" type="boolean" default="false"/>
     <attribute name="abstract" type="boolean" default="false"/>
     <attribute name="final" type="boolean" default="false"/>
     <attribute name="exact" type="exactSet"/>
    </type>

<type name="elemRef" source="annotated" derivedBy="extension">
    <attribute name="ref" type="QName"/>
     <attributeGroup ref="occurs"/>
     <attributeGroup ref="valueConstraint"/>
</type>

<!--  the unique keys for element declarations would have to be redone  -->
<element name="element" withAttribute="name" type="elemDecl" equivClass="element"/>
<element name="element" withAttribute="ref" type="elemRef" equivClass="element"/>	

Effects:

This would allow a schema validator to more effective validate schema documents and other documents that use one tag name in different uses in the same context.  The implementation and performance
cost should be negligable. Explicit definition of the key attributes allows the determination of the proper type to use with only looking at the start element.


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan  6 17:08:29 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000106090848.0145e1e0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 10:37 AM 1/6/00 -0500, Hunter, David wrote:
>is it really an error to have the same namespace declared
>twice, with different prefixes?  i.e., is the following really not legal
>
><tag xmlns:p1="urn:person:000-000-000"
>     xmlns:p2="urn:person:000-000-000">
>  <p1:first>John</p1:first>
>  <p2:last>Smith</p2:last>
></tag>

That is legal.  Who suggested otherwise? -Tim


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Thu Jan  6 17:30:56 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespac
	e?
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0227@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

This question is coming up when I'm trying to explain how XSLT works, in the
context of namespaces.

Consider the following XSLT stylesheet:
<xsl:stylesheet version="1.0"
xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform">
  <xsl:template match="/">
      <xsl:for-each select="/strings/s">
        <p><xsl:value-of select="."/></p>
      </xsl:for-each>
  </xsl:template>
</xsl:stylesheet>

Consider the match attribute of the <xsl:template> element - is that
attribute in the XSLT namespace, or is it in no namespace?  Same question
goes for the attributes on all of the other XSLT elements.  From my
experimentation with a simple stylesheet which prints out the namespace of
every element/attribute, it looks like XT considers those attributes to be
in no namespace.  My DOM implementation of choice also reports those
attributes as having no namespace URI.

So if that's true, why don't XSL processors care that the attributes they're
processing aren't in the XSLT namespace?

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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Thu Jan  6 17:55:32 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespace?
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0227@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <003801bf586f$32a12920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

> Consider the following XSLT stylesheet:
> <xsl:stylesheet version="1.0"
> xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform">
>   <xsl:template match="/">
>       <xsl:for-each select="/strings/s">
>         <p><xsl:value-of select="."/></p>
>       </xsl:for-each>
>   </xsl:template>
> </xsl:stylesheet>
>
> Consider the match attribute of the <xsl:template> element - is that
> attribute in the XSLT namespace, or is it in no namespace?  Same question
> goes for the attributes on all of the other XSLT elements.  From my
> experimentation with a simple stylesheet which prints out the namespace of
> every element/attribute, it looks like XT considers those attributes to be
> in no namespace.  My DOM implementation of choice also reports those
> attributes as having no namespace URI.
>
> So if that's true, why don't XSL processors care that the
> attributes they're processing aren't in the XSLT namespace?

I'll have a crack at this. Lets see if I get shot down in flames.

Attributes don't have namespaces. And therefore your tools are correct.

Attributes live in the per-element-type partition.

See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-breakdown, and
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-expnames for some examples
of how Namespaces are applied to attributes.

The acceptions are 'global' attributes which live in a separate partition,
the global attribute partition, and these can have a Namespace.

I don't claim to fully understand this though - because as the [Namespace]
spec says XML doesn't support the declaration of global attributes.
Global attributes seem to be an application level construct creeping
into the lower layer. The can't be expressed in a schema/DTD, only within
the
prose of their documentation (e.g. something like "all HTML elements have
a CLASS attribute, which is processed thusly..."). I'd welcome any
input anyone has on this point.

Cheers,

L.



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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan  6 18:57:34 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0224@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0224@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <14452.58720.951028.793372@localhost.localdomain>

Hunter, David writes:

 > > > The problem though boils down to how often, in reality, XML
 > > > instances will have the same Namespace declared twice, with
 > > > different prefixes.
 > > 
 > > The fact that the bug would be rare makes it worse -- an
 > > application will run perfectly for, say, 18 months, then will
 > > suddenly and inexplicably blow up long after the original
 > > programmers have moved on because one input document happened to
 > > declare the same NS twice and the programmers didn't build in
 > > error recovery for that problem.
 > 
 > I don't want to flog any dead horses, so I hope this hasn't been covered
 > already, but is it really an error to have the same namespace declared
 > twice, with different prefixes?  

No, it's not an error at all.  We're concerned about the borderline
case where there are two QName objects

  {"http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml", "p", ""}
  {"http://www.w3c.org/1999/xhtml", "p", "html"}

and a program compares them with equals() in Java or == in C++.  Most
people are arguing that the two should be equals()/==, but a few
people have pointed out that that is a nasty trap for any programmer
who is not extremely familiar with the Namespaces spec.

My proposed solution is simply to punt: don't introduce a QName class
in SAX2, and leave such things to higher-level specs, which can
deal with these as they see fit.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Thu Jan  6 19:06:23 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com>

I'm still trying to absorb all of the intricacies of namespaces, and I
can see I have a long way to go.  I'm looking at the XLink
recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink/) and I see the following:

  A sample set of declaration for a series of elements that use the
  type attribute might look as follows:

    <!ELEMENT student EMPTY>
    <!ATTLIST student
      xlink:type     (locator)     #FIXED "locator"
      xlink:href     CDATA         #REQUIRED
      xlink:role     NMTOKEN       #FIXED "student"
      xlink:title    CDATA         #IMPLIED
    >
    . . . .

  The following example shows how an XML document using these
  declarations might look:

    <student
      href="/students/patjones.xml"
      title="Pat Jones" />
    . . . .

Does this mean that once the namespace prefix has been declared in the
DTD the parsers understand that (for example) "href" really means
"xlink:href" (and therefore this sample document will be valid)?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan  6 19:12:13 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespace?
In-Reply-To: Leigh Dodds's message of "Thu, 6 Jan 2000 17:55:20 -0000"
References: <003801bf586f$32a12920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m3puvf6mnf.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Leigh Dodds <ldodds@ingenta.com> writes:

> Attributes don't have namespaces. And therefore your tools are correct.
> 
> Attributes live in the per-element-type partition.
> 
> See http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-breakdown, and
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#ns-expnames for some examples of
> how Namespaces are applied to attributes.
>
> The acceptions are 'global' attributes which live in a separate
> partition, the global attribute partition, and these can have a
> Namespace.
> 
> I don't claim to fully understand this though

[snip]

You're not alone -- this point has caused as much confusion as any
other in the Namespaces spec.

Remember that Namespaces have to do simply with identification (this
is an A) and distinction (this is not a B); they don't say anything
about what A and B mean.

Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
the following two examples are identical:

  <html:a href="foo">

and

  <html:a html:href="foo">

For most applications (such as RDF, and, possibly, XSL), the answer is
a firm 'no', but the WG decided to make it *possible* to distinguish
the two in case anyone ever thinks of a good reason to do so.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com  Thu Jan  6 19:36:21 2000
From: bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: OASIS work (was: Re: SAX2 Namespace Support)
Message-ID: <200001061936.LAA10568@boethius.eng.sun.com>

I can't really track this list, but I do try to take a core sample
from time to time, and I just noticed this reference to OASIS:

[David Megginson:]

| I think that it would be wrong to use fatalError to report
| Namespace violations, but others may disagree.  I think that OASIS
| or some other body should take a stab at this problem -- we
| shouldn't wait for the W3C to solve everything.

Everyone should understand that OASIS is a grass-roots
from-the-ground-up organization.  Anyone with $250/year can join
OASIS, and any group of OASIS members can apply to start an OASIS
technical committee as long as they follow the rules.  But OASIS
isn't going to do this for you; you have to provide the
initiative.  OASIS is a People's Standards Organization(sm), and
as in all such non-profit organizations, the People have to do the
work.

Anyone interested in forming an OASIS TC can contact me directly
for more information.

Jon


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan  6 19:38:51 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000106113602.01416100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:07 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
>    <!ELEMENT student EMPTY>
>    <!ATTLIST student
>      xlink:type     (locator)     #FIXED "locator"
>      xlink:href     CDATA         #REQUIRED
>      xlink:role     NMTOKEN       #FIXED "student"
>      xlink:title    CDATA         #IMPLIED
>    >
>    . . . .
>
>  The following example shows how an XML document using these
>  declarations might look:
>
>    <student
>      href="/students/patjones.xml"
>      title="Pat Jones" />

Looks like an error to me.  I think that should be 

<student xlink:href=""

and so on. -Tim

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Thu Jan  6 19:50:39 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespace?
In-Reply-To: <m3puvf6mnf.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061444160.20342-100000@rksystems.com>

On 6 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:

> You're not alone -- this point has caused as much confusion as any
> other in the Namespaces spec.
> 
> Remember that Namespaces have to do simply with identification (this
> is an A) and distinction (this is not a B); they don't say anything
> about what A and B mean.
> 
> Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
> the following two examples are identical:
> 
>   <html:a href="foo">
> 
> and
> 
>   <html:a html:href="foo">
> 
> For most applications (such as RDF, and, possibly, XSL), the answer is
> a firm 'no', but the WG decided to make it *possible* to distinguish
> the two in case anyone ever thinks of a good reason to do so.
> 

I'm feeling a little lost in the medieval subtleties here.  Can you
explain what the meaning of "distinguish" is in this context?  What's
the difference between saying "these two examples are not identical" and
"we can distinguish between these two examples"?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan  6 20:13:16 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's
  namespace?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:51 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
>> Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
>> the following two examples are identical:
>>   <html:a href="foo">
>>   <html:a html:href="foo">
>> For most applications (such as RDF, and, possibly, XSL), the answer is
>> a firm 'no', but the WG decided to make it *possible* to distinguish

>I'm feeling a little lost in the medieval subtleties here.  

It's a pity this stuff is so hard, but well... it's hard.  One of the
brightest computer programmers I ever knew, Phil Karlton, said "There
are only two hard problems in Computer Science: cache invalidation
and naming things."  I agree that it's hard to avoid discussions that
are reminiscent of medieval theology.

So... let's try again.  Consider these two

   <html:a href="foo">
   <html:a html:href="foo">

The namespace spec could have said one of three things:

1. These must always be treated as identical
2. These must always be treated as different
3. Applications can make up their minds

The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.  It's kind of like
non-Euclidean geometries; each of the three options above produces a
self-consistent universe, so the only question is, which one do we
want to live in?  

Most applications, it seems, want to live in Universe #1, and the
namespace spec allows them to do that.  -Tim


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan  6 20:25:58 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespace?
References: <003801bf586f$32a12920$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3874FA42.8A6C7369@pacbell.net>

Leigh Dodds wrote:
> 
> >   <xsl:template match="/">
> >       ...
> >
> > Consider the match attribute of the <xsl:template> element - is that
> > attribute in the XSLT namespace, or is it in no namespace?  ...
> 
> Attributes don't have namespaces. And therefore your tools are correct.
> 
> Attributes live in the per-element-type partition.

More correctly, the namespace interpretation of "unprefixed" attributes
(like "match" in this example) is not defined by the namespace spec.

The entire notion of a "per-element-type" "partition" lives only in
a non-normative appendix.  So it can't be depended on in general.


In this case, without consulting the details of the XSLT spec I'd just
suppose that the "match" is one defined by the template node, rather
than one that's global to the XSLT spec.  But the namespace spec was
written so that other interpretations could be provided, too.

Now I'm wondering if the XSLT spec is written such that the example
above is equivalent to

	<xsl:template xsl:match="/"> ...

or whether that's not explicitly defined!

- Dave

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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Thu Jan  6 20:26:18 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: DOM and editing [was WISH!...]
In-Reply-To: <E126BfD-0002c1-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>
References: <200001060440.UAA16322@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <200001062021.MAA28501@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 7 Jan 00, at 12:08, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:

> I am indeed doing this! I have specified and implemented a first pass at
> CMLDOM using DOM-1. I ran into a number of problems when building/editing
> the DOM. I have been using two implementations, xml-tr2 from SUN and xml4j
> (now Xerces). Each of these had extended the DOM interface with methods
> such as
> setTagName() and
> setOwnerDocument()
> which I found to be essential for editing. In doing so the 2
> implementations diverged and I could not easily extend one without losing
> the ability to switch to the other if necessary. (I appreciate that this is
> one of the problems that SAXON tackled). I therefore did not have an
> implementation of CMLDOM that could be switched from one implementation to
> the other. effectively this means that I would have to rewrite the
> interface for different editors

The theory is that the DOM will define basic functionality and leave 
the convenience functions to other modules (yes, I know we don't do 
DTDs yet, but that will be done in Level 3, which we're starting now). 
So if there are things you *really need*, please send a list of them 
to www-dom@w3.org. Especially if they're already in some existing 
DOM implementation. It's too late for Level 2, but we're busy writing 
requirements document for Level 3, so now is the right time to get 
them listed. If you can include a use case, that makes life much 
easier for everyone, of course.

> If these and related problems are solved in DOM2 I shall be delighted!
> DOM2, however, specifically suggests that the interface can be extended,
> and it is these extensions that I am afraid of. 

I don't think those functions are in DOM Level 2. As for the 
extensibility, the DOM has always said that implementations can 
add their own functionality, so there's nothing new there. The best 
solution is if DOM implementations come with documentation that 
clearly states which functions and methods are part of the W3C 
DOM specification, and which are proprietary.


Lauren

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan  6 20:31:18 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: SAX2: Namespace Processing and NSUtils helper class
References: <200001060414.VAA05483@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3874FB7F.8A9F3BD3@pacbell.net>

uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:
> 
> > I think you've gotten confused by the multiple iterations on this
> > topic.  Likely not the only person!
> 
> To my reading, you're the one confused.  You explicitly said that "Namespace
> URIs clearly have three kinds of values..." and went on to list one of them as
> 'Declared as no-value (empty string, "")', implying, to my mind, that SAX must
> deal with this case.  Tim rejoined that this case is erroneous, implying to my
> mind that it need not be dealt with in the SAX interface, but in
> error-handling.

You seem to have overlooked the followup where I tied things back to
a problem that any SAX2 proposal _must_ deal with.  I always said
it related to error handling, which the namespace spec punted on.

- Dave

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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Thu Jan  6 20:37:16 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Wish lists for the Holidays
In-Reply-To: <38741E55.4887CC90@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 5 Jan 00, at 20:47, David Brownell wrote:

> ... and constantly adding more functionality to it is the "bloat"
> to which I referred.  The point's been raised that some of the
> current functionality might well be completed, before adding any
> newer functionality.  (Everything DTD-related is incomplete, since
> one can't start with an empty DOM tree and add those functionalities
> without requiring proprietary extensions.)

That's what Level 3 is all about. If it has a theme, it's "filling in the 
obvious holes" such as DTD support, and load and save.

> There's a concept called "software layering" that I adhere to -- I'm
> sure you know it well.  Modules can use DOM without being bundled into
> DOM itself.  XPath can (and IMHO should) be such a layer.

The DOM WG has done its best to design the DOM to be usable 
as the basis for such layering. And, for example, MathML, SMIL 
and SVG are all doing DOM modules fo ruse on top of the basic 
DOM. XPath would be a module no matter who did it; the only 
question is who should do it. I personally think it should be the 
people with experience in the matter, e.g. it's the SVG WG doing 
the SVG DOM, not the DOM WG.


Lauren

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Thu Jan  6 20:47:51 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's 
 namespace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061540580.20342-100000@rksystems.com>

On Thu, 6 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:

> At 02:51 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
> >> Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
> >> the following two examples are identical:
> >>   <html:a href="foo">
> >>   <html:a html:href="foo">
> >> For most applications (such as RDF, and, possibly, XSL), the answer is
> >> a firm 'no', but the WG decided to make it *possible* to distinguish
> 
> >I'm feeling a little lost in the medieval subtleties here.  
> 
> It's a pity this stuff is so hard, but well... it's hard.  One of the
> brightest computer programmers I ever knew, Phil Karlton, said "There
> are only two hard problems in Computer Science: cache invalidation
> and naming things."  I agree that it's hard to avoid discussions that
> are reminiscent of medieval theology.
> 
> So... let's try again.  Consider these two
> 
>    <html:a href="foo">
>    <html:a html:href="foo">
> 
> The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
> 
> 1. These must always be treated as identical
> 2. These must always be treated as different
> 3. Applications can make up their minds
> 
> The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.  It's kind of like
> non-Euclidean geometries; each of the three options above produces a
> self-consistent universe, so the only question is, which one do we
> want to live in?  
> 
> Most applications, it seems, want to live in Universe #1, and the
> namespace spec allows them to do that.  -Tim

OK.  If I understand your last paragraph, you're saying the opposite of
what David M. said earlier in the thread ("[f]or most applications ...
the answer is a firm 'no' [the two examples are *not* identical]") -
right?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan  6 21:11:28 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's 
  namespace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200001062111.QAA12772@hesketh.net>

At 12:14 PM 1/6/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:
>The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
>
>1. These must always be treated as identical
>2. These must always be treated as different
>3. Applications can make up their minds
>
>The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.  It's kind of like
>non-Euclidean geometries; each of the three options above produces a
>self-consistent universe, so the only question is, which one do we
>want to live in?  
>
>Most applications, it seems, want to live in Universe #1, and the
>namespace spec allows them to do that.  -Tim

While this may be a solution that would get the spec out of committee, it's
the kind of solution that leads to endless questioning as well as bizarre
conformance problems when documents built for one system have to be
processed in another system.

XML's cross-platform/cross-application nature seems to call for more
consistency, not less, but that doesn't seem to be the way things go all
the time.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan  6 21:22:41 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's 
  namespace?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000106132338.01310e40@pop.intergate.ca>

At 03:47 PM 1/6/00 -0500, Bob Kline wrote:
>OK.  If I understand your last paragraph, you're saying the opposite of
>what David M. said earlier in the thread ("[f]or most applications ...
>the answer is a firm 'no' [the two examples are *not* identical]") -
>right?

Er, I guess so... did David really mean that?  In my experience we have
got a lot of complaints saying "obviously the two are identical, you
should have made it compulsory" and very few (none?) saying "you should have
disallowed treating them as equivalent".

I think we did the right thing. -T.

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Thu Jan  6 22:01:50 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Requirement for attributes with schema scope
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7469@THOR>

Section 2.5 of Structures says:

Attributes and local element declarations are special, in that every type defines its own attribute symbol space and local element symbol space, which are distinct from each other. In addition,
top-level elements (whose declarations are not contained within a type definition) reside in their own symbol space.  And the Schema for Schema only allows attribute declarations to appear within the
scope of a type or attributeGroup.

However, you can use the <anyAttribute> element to say that an element in this namespace can have any attribute from an alien namespace.  However, without being able to have an attribute with schema
scope, how do you know which declaration of a given attribute should be used for validation.  For example,

Schema for ThisNamespace:

<schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
 	  targetNamespace="http://www.software.aeat.com/ThisNamespace">

	<element name="someElement">
		<anyAttribute>http://www.software.aeat.com/ThatNamespace</anyAttribute>
	</element>
</schema>

Schema for ThatNamespace:

<schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
 	  targetNamespace="http://www.software.aeat.com/ThatNamespace">

	<element name="coffee">
		<attribute name="temp">
			<datatype>
				<enumeration value="Hot"/>
				<enumeration value="Tepid"/>
			</datatype>
		</attribute>			
	</element>

	<element name="employee">
		<!--  is this employee a temporary  -->
		<attribute name="temp" type="boolean"/>
	</element>
</schema>

Sample Document:

<!--  that:temp is ambiguous, 
	should it be the employee status or the coffee temperature -->
<someElement xmlns="http://www.software.aeat.com/ThisNamespace"
		 xmlns:that=http://www.software.aeat.com/ThatNamespace"
		 that:temp="false"
</someElement>

Resolution:

Attribute declarations need to be able to appear in the scope of a <schema> element.  To allow reuse, <attribute> should also have a ref attribute so that global scoped attributes can appear in a
element without a duplicate definition.  Only attributes with a schema scope should be used to resolve namespace qualified attributes.

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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Thu Jan  6 23:02:36 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: two little DOM2 questions...
References: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>
Message-ID: <38751F4B.1725D001@trantor.de>

Hello,

can anybody explain to me why in DOM2 both

    public Attr setAttributeNodeNS(Attr newAttr);
and 
    public Attr setAttributeNode(Attr newAttr);

exist, but only one remove method

    public Attr removeAttributeNode(Attr oldAttr);

Also, the current DOM2 spec says that mixing 
simple and namespace-aware methods should be 
avoided and will result in unpredictable behavior.

There are five methods in DOM2.Element that I 
would normally expect to default to the element 
namespace if available:  

 public String getAttribute(String name);
 public void setAttribute(String name, String value);
 public void removeAttribute(String name);
 public Attr getAttributeNode(String name);
 public NodeList getElementsByTagName(String name);

What is the reason for leaving the semantics open to the
implementation instead of reusing them as convenience
methods?

Best regards

Stefan

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 00:07:06 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's   namespace?
In-Reply-To: Bob Kline's message of "Thu, 6 Jan 2000 15:47:40 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061540580.20342-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Bob Kline <bkline@rksystems.com> writes:

> OK.  If I understand your last paragraph, you're saying the opposite of
> what David M. said earlier in the thread ("[f]or most applications ...
> the answer is a firm 'no' [the two examples are *not* identical]") -
> right?

(In reference to something like <html:a href="foo"> and <html:a
html:href="foo">.)

No, Tim and I are saying the same thing.  My firm 'no' (for most
applications) was to the question "Are they different?".  Tim also
wrote that most apps seem to treat them the same.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 00:13:48 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's    namespace?
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:11:34 -0500"
References: <200001062111.QAA12772@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m37lhm7n95.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> XML's cross-platform/cross-application nature seems to call for more
> consistency, not less, but that doesn't seem to be the way things go
> all the time.

Junk in standards is like rat feces in chocolate bars -- there's
always going to be some, but we try to keep it to a minimum.  Think of
ANSI C trigraphs, XML unparsed entities, and Unicode combining
characters, three things that nobody but the
hard-core-I'm-going-to-prove-they're-useful-if-it-kills-me zealots are
ever going to use.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 00:22:54 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
In-Reply-To: Bob Kline's message of "Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:07:16 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Bob Kline <bkline@rksystems.com> writes:

> I'm still trying to absorb all of the intricacies of namespaces, and I
> can see I have a long way to go.  I'm looking at the XLink
> recommendation (http://www.w3.org/TR/xlink/) and I see the following:

Here are the tricky points about Namespaces:

1. Namespace URIs are just unique identifiers, like Java or Perl
   package names; they don't (necessarily) point to anything.

2. There can be a default Namespace for element names but not for
   attribute names.

3. Not withstanding #2, some apps may treat unprefixed attribute names
   as if they belong to the same Namespace as the corresponding
   element name.

Anything I'm missing?  If you want to run through a quick Q-and-A to
make sure you've got it, take a look at the following:

  http://www.megginson.com/docs/namespaces/namespace-questions.html

Sure, the stuff about per-element Namespace partitions and global
attributes is confusing, but it's non-normative and you can safely
ignore it.

>   A sample set of declaration for a series of elements that use the
>   type attribute might look as follows:
> 
>     <!ELEMENT student EMPTY>
>     <!ATTLIST student
>       xlink:type     (locator)     #FIXED "locator"
>       xlink:href     CDATA         #REQUIRED
>       xlink:role     NMTOKEN       #FIXED "student"
>       xlink:title    CDATA         #IMPLIED
>     >
>     . . . .
> 
>   The following example shows how an XML document using these
>   declarations might look:
> 
>     <student
>       href="/students/patjones.xml"
>       title="Pat Jones" />
>     . . . .
> 
> Does this mean that once the namespace prefix has been declared in the
> DTD the parsers understand that (for example) "href" really means
> "xlink:href" (and therefore this sample document will be valid)?

To me, that looks very much like a typo.  I would have expected

  <student 
    xlink:href = "/students/patjones.xml" 
    xlink:title="Pat Jones" />


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan  7 00:30:15 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:04 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's  
   namespace?
In-Reply-To: <m37lhm7n95.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Thu, 06 Jan 2000 16:11:34 -0500">
 <200001062111.QAA12772@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001070030.TAA23060@hesketh.net>

At 07:12 PM 1/6/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Junk in standards is like rat feces in chocolate bars -- there's
>always going to be some, but we try to keep it to a minimum.  Think of
>ANSI C trigraphs, XML unparsed entities, and Unicode combining
>characters, three things that nobody but the
>hard-core-I'm-going-to-prove-they're-useful-if-it-kills-me zealots are
>ever going to use.

Yep - but unparsed entities will at least reach the application in the same
form no matter what validating parser is used.  This namespace issue
(process as you like it) is the kind of rat feces that can obscure critical
information, and create mysterious failures that only the most devoted
readers of XML-dev have any hope of figuring out.

So far as I've seen, unparsed entities haven't generated the intense level
of public discussion that namespaces have, no matter how disliked they may
be.  It only took me a year to really figure them out, but in that year
they didn't do many harm.  I'm not sure that developers will be able to say
the same for this namespace issue, which can make seemingly simple and
obvious things bizarrely complex.

Oh well.  More work for consultants and authors, I suppose.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From rwaldin at pacbell.net  Fri Jan  7 00:44:29 2000
From: rwaldin at pacbell.net (Ray Waldin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's namespace?
References: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387537C9.3BDFB94D@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> So... let's try again.  Consider these two
> 
>    <html:a href="foo">
>    <html:a html:href="foo">
> 
> The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
> 
> 1. These must always be treated as identical
> 2. These must always be treated as different
> 3. Applications can make up their minds
> 
> The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.  It's kind of like
> non-Euclidean geometries; each of the three options above produces a
> self-consistent universe, so the only question is, which one do we
> want to live in?
> 
> Most applications, it seems, want to live in Universe #1, and the
> namespace spec allows them to do that.  -Tim

How can #3 be an option at the application level if #2 isn't enforced at
the parser level?  Will parsers allow switching between these universes
at parse time?

For example (an example everyone seems to avoid!):

  <html:a href="foo" html:href="bar"/> 

This element must be considered well-formed from the standpoint of XML
1.0 + Namespaces in order to allow #3 at the application level, no?  And
furthermore, applications wanting to live in #1 have to do extra work
for each and every attribute to ensure that documents in #3 are in the
subset that is universe #1.  Yikes!

-Ray

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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan  7 00:56:35 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's
  namespace?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000106165738.02d22980@pop.intergate.ca>

At 04:48 PM 1/6/00 -0800, Ray Waldin wrote:
>  <html:a href="foo" html:href="bar"/> 
>
>This element must be considered well-formed from the standpoint of XML
>1.0 + Namespaces in order to allow #3 at the application level, no?  And
>furthermore, applications wanting to live in #1 have to do extra work
>for each and every attribute to ensure that documents in #3 are in the
>subset that is universe #1.  Yikes!

That's correct.  Apps can't rely on a generic XML or namespace processor
to raise an error on this.  If they want to do so, they have to do the
work themselves.  But the alternative - never allowing this to happen - 
seemed even more unattractive. -Tim

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From vilayanur.krishnan at intelligroup.com  Fri Jan  7 01:41:23 2000
From: vilayanur.krishnan at intelligroup.com (V P Krishnan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: FW: [techspace] Re: Questions related to XML
Message-ID: <002501bf58b0$416aa620$460ffa0a@ibm770z-4>

We had the following questions that came up during our internal discussions.
Would appreciate anyone taking time for an answer to Q1 through Q4.

Thanks
vp
-----Original Message-----
From: Muthu Kuttalingam [mailto:muthu.kuttalingam@intelligroup.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 6:30 PM
To: techspace@egroups.com
Subject: [techspace] Re: Questions related to XML


The following XML is well-formed according to XML Spy 2.5 an XML editor. So
I guess, the answer to question number 5 is yes.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<test>

    <test>


        <test>This is a test</test>


   </test>

</test>


    -----Original Message-----
    From: kaustubh.kunte [mailto:kaustubh.kunte@intelligroup.com]
    Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:46 PM
    To: techspace@egroups.com
    Subject: [techspace] Questions related to XML


    Here are the list of questions which came up during XML discussion. If
you find an answer to any of these,
    please do share it with the techspace community.

    1. Can XML grammar be represented in Backus Naur format ( BNF ) .
    2. Should XML keywords be always represented in a specific ASCII format
or can you use different character set .
    3. How to define a NULL DTD. ie a DTD which specifies no constraints.
This questions came up because a DTD
    is required for a document to be valid. So can we define a NULL DTD
which will effectively treat all well formed XML documents
    as valid documents.
    4.Is there a way of declaring multiple external dtd's in the document
type declaration ?
    5. Can a child element have same name as the parent element ?

    Jai XML !!


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From ray at xmission.com  Fri Jan  7 02:36:24 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: two little DOM2 questions...
References: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca> <38751F4B.1725D001@trantor.de>
Message-ID: <3875551B.CD9C4F08@xmission.com>

Stefan Haustein wrote:

> Hello,
>
> can anybody explain to me why in DOM2 both
>
>     public Attr setAttributeNodeNS(Attr newAttr);
> and
>     public Attr setAttributeNode(Attr newAttr);
>
> exist, but only one remove method
>
>     public Attr removeAttributeNode(Attr oldAttr);

Off the top of my head, I believe it is an omission.


> Also, the current DOM2 spec says that mixing
> simple and namespace-aware methods should be
> avoided and will result in unpredictable behavior.
>
> There are five methods in DOM2.Element that I
> would normally expect to default to the element
> namespace if available:
>
>  public String getAttribute(String name);
>  public void setAttribute(String name, String value);
>  public void removeAttribute(String name);
>  public Attr getAttributeNode(String name);
>  public NodeList getElementsByTagName(String name);
>
> What is the reason for leaving the semantics open to the
> implementation instead of reusing them as convenience
> methods?

Perhaps the word "unpredictable" might be replaced with "suprising" or "undesirable".

Level 1 methods preserve level 1 behavior, including where colon may be used as a
non-namespace-delimiting character.  Intermixing level 1 methods with level 2 methods can
produce quite unexpected results, which are nonetheless strictly predictable from the spec, I
believe.

There are some simple cases where I believe intermixing does work, including:

1.  If there are no nodes in your hierarchy which use namespaces (or level 1 names with
colons in them).

2.  If a level 2 parser produces a level 2 DOM hierarchy, always setting the prefixes in
addition to the namespaceURIs, which is then exclusively traversed and manipulated by a level
1 application.

But where a level 2 application starts freely modifying the tree, the simple model required
by the level 1 methods may be destroyed.  This is because the URI, rather than the optional
prefix, is used for the unique key.  If this were not the case, the addition of level 2
namespace functionality seems rather pointless to me.  There are a wide variety of
interesting situations including obvious and non-obvious cases -- not failures of the spec to
predict what will happen, but failure of the user to produce a desirable result if calls are
intermixed.  The namespace and non-namespace model are different enough that intermixing the
distinct models as though they were the same will cause unexpected collisions or match
failures.  Some cases work, others fail, and it may not be obvious to a user not steeped in
the model how the mixture caused the failure.  It is easier to point out that by sticking to
one set of methods or the other -- not intermixing -- you can get good desirable results.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Fri Jan  7 03:33:57 2000
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca> from "Tim Bray" at Jan 6, 0 12:14:29 pm
Message-ID: <200001070339.WAA27597@locke.ccil.org>

Tim Bray scripsit:

> The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
> 
> 1. These must always be treated as identical
> 2. These must always be treated as different
> 3. Applications can make up their minds
> 
> The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.  It's kind of like
> non-Euclidean geometries; each of the three options above produces a
> self-consistent universe, so the only question is, which one do we
> want to live in?  

Actually #2 and #3 amount to the same thing.  There's no way a standard
can say that an application *must* distinguish between things.
If an application chooses to treat the attributes "luxuryyacht" and
"throatwarblermangrove" as having the same significance, then
no standard can prevent it.

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Fri Jan  7 04:43:02 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's  
 namespace?
In-Reply-To: <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>

On 6 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:

> No, Tim and I are saying the same thing.  My firm 'no' (for most
> applications) was to the question "Are they different?". 

I see.  If that's what the following passage meant then perhaps you'll
understand my confusion.

> Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
> the following two examples are identical:
>
>   <html:a href="foo">
>
> and
>
>   <html:a html:href="foo">
>
> For most applications (such as RDF, and, possibly, XSL), the answer is
> a firm 'no' ....

Cheers,
Bob


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From pandeng at telepath.com  Fri Jan  7 06:05:05 2000
From: pandeng at telepath.com (Steve Schafer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's    namespace?
In-Reply-To: <m37lhm7n95.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <200001062111.QAA12772@hesketh.net> <m37lhm7n95.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <8e0b7skgtmd0eaes7rmbtrundtr6erp06u@4ax.com>

On 06 Jan 2000 19:12:54 -0500, David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
wrote:

>Think of ANSI C trigraphs, XML unparsed entities, and Unicode
>combining characters, three things that nobody but the
>hard-core-I'm-going-to-prove-they're-useful-if-it-kills-me zealots
>are ever going to use.

I can't speak for the first two, but I'm currently doing canonical
decomposition using combining characters. Among other things, it makes
collation easier in some cases.

-Steve Schafer


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From falk at icon.at  Fri Jan  7 08:20:11 2000
From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: [techspace] Re: Questions related to XML
Message-ID: <A01C76E644CAD111B83A0000E8D8890E0DBE33@rasserver.icon.at>

ad 1)
yes, the XML grammar is specified in EBNF (extended backus naur form) in the
original XML 1.0 specification (
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-notation
<http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210#sec-notation> ), but the
individual lines of the EBNF are scattered through the specs. For a more
condensed version, please download our XML editor XML Spy (
http://www.xmlspy.com <http://www.xmlspy.com> ) which uses an external EBNF
file to drive its parser, so you can simply take the file "gra_xml.txt" as a
starting point after installing our software.
 
ad 2)
XML is defined as a Unicode compliant document, so the XML "keywords" (or
more correctly: element names) can come from almost any other character set.
If you are interested, I have collected numerous international XML example
documents that contain korean, japanes, russian, thai, etc. element names.
 
ad 3)
two different answers:
a) if your document does not refer to a DOCTYPE (either internally or to an
external DTD file) and it is well-formed, then it is also considered valid
b) if you include a DOCTYPE that defines only <!ENTITY ...> rules, but not
<!ELEMENT ...> constrains, then your document will also be not imposing any
restrictions and be valid
 
ad 4)
no, a document can only refer to one external DTD file. However, an external
DTD can then include several other "partial" DTD files, so you can easily
separate your document type into smaller chunks and put them together
individually for each XML file depending on the particular needs. The key is
to use "external entities" in the DTD that are then resolved by including an
external file.
 
ad 5)
yes, you can also define DOCTYPEs that declare elements recursively. This is
OK and is in fact also used in many popular DTDs (e.g. XHTML 1.0)
 
Sincerely,
 
Alexander Falk

... Icon Informations-Systeme GmbH
... makers of the XML Spy editor ( http://www.xmlspy.com
<http://www.xmlspy.com> )
... ALEXANDER FALK 
... President, CEO 
... http://www.icon.at/falk <http://www.icon.at/falk>  

-----Original Message-----
From: V P Krishnan [mailto:vilayanur.krishnan@intelligroup.com]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 2:41 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: FW: [techspace] Re: Questions related to XML


We had the following questions that came up during our internal discussions.
Would appreciate anyone taking time for an answer to Q1 through Q4. 
 
Thanks
vp
-----Original Message-----
From: Muthu Kuttalingam [mailto:muthu.kuttalingam@intelligroup.com] 
Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2000 6:30 PM
To: techspace@egroups.com
Subject: [techspace] Re: Questions related to XML


The following XML is well-formed according to XML Spy 2.5 an XML editor. So
I guess, the answer to question number 5 is yes.

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>

<test>

    <test>



        <test>This is a test</test>



   </test>

</test>



-----Original Message-----
From: kaustubh.kunte [mailto:kaustubh.kunte@intelligroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2000 9:46 PM
To: techspace@egroups.com
Subject: [techspace] Questions related to XML


Here are the list of questions which came up during XML discussion. If you
find an answer to any of these,
please do share it with the techspace community.
 
1. Can XML grammar be represented in Backus Naur format ( BNF ) .
2. Should XML keywords be always represented in a specific ASCII format or
can you use different character set .
3. How to define a NULL DTD. ie a DTD which specifies no constraints. This
questions came up because a DTD 
is required for a document to be valid. So can we define a NULL DTD which
will effectively treat all well formed XML documents
as valid documents.
4.Is there a way of declaring multiple external dtd's in the document type
declaration ?
5. Can a child element have same name as the parent element ?
 
Jai XML !!


-------------- next part --------------
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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Fri Jan  7 10:15:20 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's
	  namespace?
References: <3.0.32.20000106165738.02d22980@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3875BDC8.F829BC39@mecomnet.de>

ie., Mr Waldin's conclusion is correct, and the REC actually requires
application recognize that a conforming parser may well distinguish between
the two encodings and the application must act as if the standard is option #2.


Ray Waldin wrote:
> 
> Tim Bray wrote:
> > So... let's try again.  Consider these two
> >
> >    <html:a href="foo">
> >    <html:a html:href="foo">
> >
> > The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
> >
> > 1. These must always be treated as identical
> > 2. These must always be treated as different
> > 3. Applications can make up their minds
> >
> > The then-Working Group eventually went for #3. ...
> 
> How can #3 be an option at the application level if #2 isn't enforced at
> the parser level?  Will parsers allow switching between these universes
> at parse time?
> 


Tim Bray responded:
> 
> At 04:48 PM 1/6/00 -0800, Ray Waldin wrote:
> >  <html:a href="foo" html:href="bar"/>
> >
> >This element must be considered well-formed from the standpoint of XML
> >1.0 + Namespaces in order to allow #3 at the application level, no?  And
> >furthermore, applications wanting to live in #1 have to do extra work
> >for each and every attribute to ensure that documents in #3 are in the
> >subset that is universe #1.  Yikes!
> 
> That's correct.  Apps can't rely on a generic XML or namespace processor
> to raise an error on this.  If they want to do so, they have to do the
> work themselves.  But the alternative - never allowing this to happen -
> seemed even more unattractive. -Tim


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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Fri Jan  7 10:41:04 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> 
> Here are the tricky points about Namespaces:
> 
> 1. Namespace URIs are just unique identifiers, like Java or Perl
>    package names; they don't (necessarily) point to anything.
> 
> 2. There can be a default Namespace for element names but not for
>    attribute names.
> 
> 3. Not withstanding #2, some apps may treat unprefixed attribute names
>    as if they belong to the same Namespace as the corresponding
>    element name.
> 
> Anything I'm missing?  If you want to run through a quick Q-and-A to
> make sure you've got it, take a look at the following:
> 

I've yet to find convincing answers to the following questions:

a. How does one do attribute defaulting in situations where the namespaces
matter. That is, in situations where one can't just treat the document as if
it were "xml-1.0-plain".

b. How can one uphold the constraint, that the set of valid
"xml-1.0+namespaces" documents is identical with the set of valid
"xml-1.0-plain" documents. Mr Waldin's question is one case in point.

c. How does one specify an identity between a "name which is in no namespace"
and a "name in a namespace as declared in a schema". Perhaps I'm just
narrow-minded, but I sense a potential contradiction in this notion.

These for starters. They follow from the root problem, that the REC did ratify
a complete model for the domain which it describes. It was most disappointing
to observe the extent to which the appendix was disavowed. Were one to have
taken something of that sort seriously, such issues may have come to light,
rather than being "left to the application".


...


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jan  7 10:47:20 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Requirement for attributes with schema scope
In-Reply-To: "Arnold, Curt"'s message of "Thu, 6 Jan 2000 14:59:20 -0700"
References: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7469@THOR>
Message-ID: <f5bu2kqtaz1.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Arnold, Curt" <Curt.Arnold@hyprotech.com> writes:

> [Comments on qualified attributes in instances, and a proposal for
>  top-level attribute declarations which can be 'ref'ed]

Something along these lines has been considered, and it's not out of
the question that it may happen.

For the time being, the only schema-valid way to introduce an
attribute from other than the namespace partition scoped to the
containing element is by way of an attribute GROUP from another
namespace, e.g.

  <type>
   . . .
   <attributeGroup ref='foo:baz'/>
  </type>

See the schema for schemas [1] for an example of how this is done, wrt
xml:lang.

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#normative-schemaSchema
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan  7 11:02:35 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: two little DOM2 questions...
References: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca> <38751F4B.1725D001@trantor.de> <3875551B.CD9C4F08@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <3875C7A9.E4930101@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Ray Whitmer wrote:
> 
> Perhaps the word "unpredictable" might be replaced with "suprising" or "undesirable".
> 
> Level 1 methods preserve level 1 behavior, including where colon may be used as a
> non-namespace-delimiting character.  Intermixing level 1 methods with level 2 methods can
> produce quite unexpected results, which are nonetheless strictly predictable from the spec, I
> believe.
> 
> There are some simple cases where I believe intermixing does work, including:
> 
> 2.  If a level 2 parser produces a level 2 DOM hierarchy, always setting the prefixes in
> addition to the namespaceURIs, which is then exclusively traversed and manipulated by a level
> 1 application.
> 

Are you sure? As far as I know, prefixes can have different 
bindings at different levels in the hierarchy, manipulating 
the tree may result in invalid prefixes in DOM1 and DOM2. 
In DOM2 you have a chance to "repair" the prefixes while 
writing out the tree since I know the namespace URI....

The methods I was talking about were mainly attribute access 
methods. What I would expect is that they use the elment 
namespace as a default. In a plain DOM1 situation, the 
element has no namespace, and DOM1 behavior is preserved.  

But in the current specification this is not fixed. Thus,
the DOM1 read methods will work in most cases, but will
deliver unpredictable results when I have two attributes 
with the same local name but different namespaces. That
seems very dangerous to me. 

Best regards 

Stefan

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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Fri Jan  7 11:06:45 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's 
  namespace?
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000106121424.0140e2a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000107110607.00b20840@mailhost>

At 12:14 06/01/00 -0800, Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> wrote:
>>> Basically, then, the main question was whether the attribute names in
>>> the following two examples are identical:
>>>   <html:a href="foo">
>>>   <html:a html:href="foo">

>The namespace spec could have said one of three things:
>
>1. These must always be treated as identical
>2. These must always be treated as different
>3. Applications can make up their minds
>
>The then-Working Group eventually went for #3.

The trouble with #3 is that it makes the semantics of an XML document
depend on its consuming application, not its originating application.  XML
provides a tool for publishing data so that it can be processed by a wide
range of applications over which the author has no control.  These
consuming applications should not, IMHO, have been given the option of
misinterpreting the data in this way.
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan  7 11:50:00 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: two little DOM2 questions... (corrected)
References: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca> <38751F4B.1725D001@trantor.de> <3875551B.CD9C4F08@xmission.com> <3875C7A9.E4930101@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <3875D2C5.F7700BBD@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Stefan Haustein wrote:
> 
> Ray Whitmer wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps the word "unpredictable" might be replaced with "suprising" or "undesirable".
> >
> > Level 1 methods preserve level 1 behavior, including where colon may be used as a
> > non-namespace-delimiting character.  Intermixing level 1 methods with level 2 methods can
> > produce quite unexpected results, which are nonetheless strictly predictable from the spec, I
> The methods I was talking about were mainly attribute access
> methods. What I would expect is that they use the elment
> namespace as a default. In a plain DOM1 situation, the
> element has no namespace, and DOM1 behavior is preserved.

I am sorry. After re-reading the spec, I would expect that
the DOM1 attribute access methods default to NO namespace.

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From vinokurov at mail.ru  Fri Jan  7 11:53:15 2000
From: vinokurov at mail.ru (Nikita Vionkurov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: XMLSchema  implementation
Message-ID: <01BF591E.E909FCA0@dial56192.mtu-net.ru>

On 7 Jan 2000 James Tauber wrote:

>I've started doing this and sent out a post to xml-dev seeing if anyone else
>is interested. I don't know that it got through so here is a second attempt:
>
>Is anyone working on or interested in working on a schema API?


James,
I started to write XMLSchema-part-1 API in Java with purpose to generate XML documents
automatically.
It will be great if we unite our attempts on doing it.

>Ultimately I'd like to attempt a single API supporting the intersection of
>functionality between DTDs, XDRs and XSDs with extensions for handling the
>individual schema languages. The API could inform and/or be informed by the
>DOM Level 3 support for DTDs.

But I don't hear anything about DOM Level 3. Could you be so pleased to help me
in getting DOM Level 3 info.

Nikita Vinokurov.

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan  7 11:59:09 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: is a prefix without a namespace legal?
Message-ID: <3875D4EB.663278E2@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Hello,

splitting a name into localname and prefix seems to cause several
compatibility problems in SAX and DOM.
My question is: Is splitting the name legal at all if no valid namespace
is given?

If the nsprefix would be extracted only when a namespace is set, the
problem

{'', '', 'href'} != {'', 'html', 'href'} 

would not exist since the prefix would not be stripped off in that case.

{'', '', 'href'} != {'', '', 'html:href'}

best regards

Stefan



-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From ray at xmission.com  Fri Jan  7 13:21:28 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: two little DOM2 questions...
References: <200001062032.MAA05231@mail.sqwest.bc.ca> <38751F4B.1725D001@trantor.de> <3875551B.CD9C4F08@xmission.com> <3875C7A9.E4930101@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <3875EC54.D23B2F64@xmission.com>

Stefan Haustein wrote:

> Ray Whitmer wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps the word "unpredictable" might be replaced with "suprising" or "undesirable".
> >
> > Level 1 methods preserve level 1 behavior, including where colon may be used as a
> > non-namespace-delimiting character.  Intermixing level 1 methods with level 2 methods can
> > produce quite unexpected results, which are nonetheless strictly predictable from the spec, I
> > believe.
> >
> > There are some simple cases where I believe intermixing does work, including:
> >
> > 2.  If a level 2 parser produces a level 2 DOM hierarchy, always setting the prefixes in
> > addition to the namespaceURIs, which is then exclusively traversed and manipulated by a level
> > 1 application.
> >
>
> Are you sure? As far as I know, prefixes can have different
> bindings at different levels in the hierarchy, manipulating
> the tree may result in invalid prefixes in DOM1 and DOM2.
> In DOM2 you have a chance to "repair" the prefixes while
> writing out the tree since I know the namespace URI....

Perhaps I have not comprehended exactly what you are asking "Are you sure?" about.

I believe that a level 2 parser operating on a level 2 DOM implementation can easily produce a
tree that a pure level 1 application or a pure level 2 application will find equally satisfying,
as long as each one sticks to the appropriate set of methods -- NS for level 2 and non-NS for
level 1.

The level 1 methods called by the application generally ignore everything but the local name,
which the level 2 parser has correctly produced in the level 2 DOM.  Level 1 mutation methods will
continue to  preserve consistency with respect to this.

The level 2 methods called by the application generally ignore everything but the namespaceURI and
the local name, which, again, the level 2 parser has correctly produced in the level 2 DOM.  Level
2 mutation methods will continue to preserve consistency with respect to this.

> The methods I was talking about were mainly attribute access
> methods. What I would expect is that they use the elment
> namespace as a default. In a plain DOM1 situation, the
> element has no namespace, and DOM1 behavior is preserved.
>
> But in the current specification this is not fixed. Thus,
> the DOM1 read methods will work in most cases, but will
> deliver unpredictable results when I have two attributes
> with the same local name but different namespaces. That
> seems very dangerous to me.

Level 1 methods do not look at the local name or the namespace URI.  They look at the nodename,
which in the case of a level 2 node consists of the prefix and the localname.  This will have been
correctly set up by the level 2 parser.

The parser is the one application that can easily set the hierarchy up so that it is consistent
from both a level 1 and a level 2 perspective.

Level 2 calls which further modify the nodes looking only at namespaceURI + localname for
uniqueness can easily mess it up for a level 1 application.  And the other way around, level 1
calls which modify nodes only looking at the nodename (prefix + localname) for uniqueness can
easily mess it up for level 2 methods.

This means that it is only "dangerous" if you intermix level 1 and level 2 NS calls after the
parser.  You have to pick your model and live with it.  Otherwise, I believe it is not possible to
preserve level 1 compatibility while avoiding all conflicts between the models.  One model has to
win, and given compatibility requirements, that model will be the level 1 model ruling out a level
2 model where namespaceURI + localname is the unique key.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 13:26:21 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's  
 namespace?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
References: <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <14453.59722.764118.442557@localhost.localdomain>

Bob Kline writes:
 > On 6 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:
 > 
 > > No, Tim and I are saying the same thing.  My firm 'no' (for most
 > > applications) was to the question "Are they different?". 
 > 
 > I see.  If that's what the following passage meant then perhaps you'll
 > understand my confusion.

Understood -- I mistakenly wrote "identical" where I meant
"different".  Sorry for the confusion.

To make it clear, I believe that all real-world apps will treat the
attribute names *identically* in examples like these:

  <html:a href="foo">
  <html:a html:href="foo">

With the benefit of hindsight after more than a year's implementation
experience, it's pretty clear that needlessly complicated the spec (a
lot) and implementations (a little) by allowing these two cases to be
distinguished.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan  7 13:36:31 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: SAX2 NS processing (was Re: Namespace question)
In-Reply-To: <14453.59722.764118.442557@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
 <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
Message-ID: <200001071336.IAA18723@hesketh.net>

At 08:25 AM 1/7/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>To make it clear, I believe that all real-world apps will treat the
>attribute names *identically* in examples like these:
>
>  <html:a href="foo">
>  <html:a html:href="foo">
>
>With the benefit of hindsight after more than a year's implementation
>experience, it's pretty clear that needlessly complicated the spec (a
>lot) and implementations (a little) by allowing these two cases to be
>distinguished.

Will SAX2 namespace processing take this 'real-world' approach (which I
totally support), or are there going to be options for this?

It sounded earlier like you expect namespace processing to be the domain of
the parser, not the application, so it seems like a live issue.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From ray at xmission.com  Fri Jan  7 13:43:26 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: is a prefix without a namespace legal?
References: <3875D4EB.663278E2@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <3875F17F.48541518@xmission.com>

Stefan Haustein wrote:

> Hello,
>
> splitting a name into localname and prefix seems to cause several
> compatibility problems in SAX and DOM.
> My question is: Is splitting the name legal at all if no valid namespace
> is given?

You can create such a node only by calling a level 1 method instead of the level 2 NS
version.  In this case, I believe it is really not a prefix, but merely a nodename that
happens to have a colon in it.

I believe that a level 2 NS method is required to fail if a prefix is given and no URI.

There is currently an exception for xml and xmlns as prefixes, which have no URI, but it is
not clear to me right now how this can be -- it seems to resurrect the problems with level 1
and level 2 NS mixtures -- the level 2 unique identification is URI + localname, so how can
an xmlns attribute have an empty URI and not collide with non-namespace attributes?

I think you have given me a couple of issues to raise with the DOM working group.

Thanks,

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 13:56:50 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
In-Reply-To: james anderson's message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2000 11:46:00 +0100"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:

> a. How does one do attribute defaulting in situations where the
> namespaces matter. That is, in situations where one can't just treat
> the document as if it were "xml-1.0-plain".

Declare the attribute -- it is irrelevant whether Namespaces matter or
not.  Or is your question "how can you preserve an attribute default
after a round trip through a processor that doesn't preserve the
original Namespace prefixes"?

That said, I think that attribute defaulting is a bad idea in most
cases, because (especially for data exchange) it opens up all kinds of
potential bugs and, more importantly, security holes.

> b. How can one uphold the constraint, that the set of valid
> "xml-1.0+namespaces" documents is identical with the set of valid
> "xml-1.0-plain" documents. Mr Waldin's question is one case in point.

I'm not sure what you mean.  

If you're using "valid" the same way as the XML 1.0 spec does, then
the set of valid documents that happens to contain Namespace
declarations is a strict subset of the set of all valid XML 1.0
documents; in other words, they are not identical.

The Namespaces spec (like the RDF spec, the XHTML spec, XLink spec, or
most other specs) imposes additional constraints on a document beyond
validity or well-formedness.  It is possible to have a document that
is valid XML 1.0 but not conformant to Namespaces or RDF or XLink, and
conversely, it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
(though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict conformance).

> c. How does one specify an identity between a "name which is in no
> namespace" and a "name in a namespace as declared in a
> schema". Perhaps I'm just narrow-minded, but I sense a potential
> contradiction in this notion.

This is an interesting problem, but what does it have to do with
Namespaces?  All the Namespaces REC does is specify how to create
elements and attributes with two-part names, like you can with methods 
or variables in Perl and Java (Namespace == package).  It's very
simple:

- In plain XML 1.0, all names have a single part.

- The Namespaces REC defines a method for creating two-part names
  using conformant XML 1.0 syntax.

There are many people who wish that the Namespaces REC had set out to
do more -- perhaps to talk about what Names mean, or how they can be
identified with each-other -- but given how much noise there's been
about even the little bit that the NS REC did set out to do, I think
it's clear that it was smart not to attempt even more.

> These for starters. They follow from the root problem, that the REC
> did ratify a complete model for the domain which it describes. It
> was most disappointing to observe the extent to which the appendix
> was disavowed. Were one to have taken something of that sort
> seriously, such issues may have come to light, rather than being
> "left to the application".

For "left to the application" substitute "left to higher-level specs".
People were already preparing to start work on an XML Schema spec, and
it didn't make sense for Namespaces to do a half-assed job trying to
do part of schema's work for it and then leaving the schema people
with all kinds of constraints.  

Good specifications are layered, with each one accomplishing a single,
well defined task.  The Namespaces spec set out to answer the question
"How do you represent a two-part name in XML 1.0 syntax?", not "How do
you solve every possible problem with inheritance, identity, and
validation in XML?"


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 14:01:34 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: SAX2 NS processing (was Re: Namespace question)
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:36:37 -0500"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <200001071336.IAA18723@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3u2kqkmly.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> Will SAX2 namespace processing take this 'real-world' approach (which I
> totally support), or are there going to be options for this?
> 
> It sounded earlier like you expect namespace processing to be the domain of
> the parser, not the application, so it seems like a live issue.

Basically, the difference in pseudo code is this:

  for each att in atts do
    if att.uri == "http://www.foo.com/ns/" || att.uri == ""
      if att.local == "foo"
        doFoo(att.value)
      else if att.local == "bar"
        doBar(att.value)
      end
    end
  end

vs. this:

  for each att in atts do
    if att.uri == "http://www.foo.com/ns/"
      if att.local == "foo"
        doFoo(att.value)
      else if att.local == "bar"
        doBar(att.value)
      end
    end
  end

In other words, there's not a very significant difference between the
two.  The main problem is that the spec is just so much harder to read 
and understand that it had to be.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan  7 14:20:36 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: SAX2 NS processing (was Re: Namespace question)
In-Reply-To: <m3u2kqkmly.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2000 08:36:37 -0500">
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
 <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
 <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com>
 <200001071336.IAA18723@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001071420.JAA20438@hesketh.net>

At 09:00 AM 1/7/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Basically, the difference in pseudo code is this:

[pseudo-code stuff]

>In other words, there's not a very significant difference between the
>two.  The main problem is that the spec is just so much harder to read 
>and understand that it had to be.

Yes, but is SAX2 going to continue that confusion, or is it going to
clarify it?

Basically, there are three choices.

1) Ignore problem - let chaos continue, and force apps and developers to
deal with pseudo-code stuff above.

2) Make a choice - SAX2 defines a namespaces best practice, makes itself
simpler than the spec.  You seem to lean toward 'attributes with no prefix
inherit their element prefix'.

3) Provide an option and a default - SAX2 makes a choice, but lets
applications opt for the other choice without requiring developers to
understand namespaces enough to implement that pseudocode.

I'd push _hard_ for 2 or 3.  SAX2 has to make one of these 3 choices.  Which?

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Fri Jan  7 14:44:21 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: Namespace question:  Do attributes inherit the element's  
 namespace?
In-Reply-To: <14453.59722.764118.442557@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001070943500.20564-100000@rksystems.com>

On Fri, 7 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:

> Bob Kline writes:
>  > On 6 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:
>  > 
>  > > No, Tim and I are saying the same thing.  My firm 'no' (for most
>  > > applications) was to the question "Are they different?". 
>  > 
>  > I see.  If that's what the following passage meant then perhaps you'll
>  > understand my confusion.
> 
> Understood -- I mistakenly wrote "identical" where I meant
> "different".  Sorry for the confusion.
> 
> To make it clear, I believe that all real-world apps will treat the
> attribute names *identically* in examples like these:
> 
>   <html:a href="foo">
>   <html:a html:href="foo">
> 
> With the benefit of hindsight after more than a year's implementation
> experience, it's pretty clear that needlessly complicated the spec (a
> lot) and implementations (a little) by allowing these two cases to be
> distinguished.

David (and Tim, too):

Thanks for clearing things up.

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com



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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 14:47:59 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: SAX2: Parser interface
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751B7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751B7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14453.64616.829722.472256@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin writes:

 [about Parser.setLocale]

 > Many software modules need to do error reporting of some sort
 > or another. Typically they'll simply use the platform default
 > Locale for localization rather than allowing it to be
 > configurable. That's the right thing to do, because error 
 > messages are normally delivered locally, and the rare cases
 > where they're not aren't enough to justify adding setLocale()
 > methods to an interface (cp. pretty much all the standard
 > java.*.* classes, eg. java.util.HashMap).

I'd be just as happy to drop setLocale in SAX2 if people are willing
-- what was our original justification?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Fri Jan  7 14:59:43 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:05 2004
Subject: SAX2 NS processing (was Re: Namespace question)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <200001071336.IAA18723@hesketh.net> <m3u2kqkmly.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3876009E.8C51BE85@mecomnet.de>

The following is true only of application which don't live very long. For
example, for processes which correspond to a single selfcontained document
only. Where the processes live longer and continue to process additional
documents over their life span, that second little 
   || att.uri == ""
clause is going to make thier lives, and their coding, unnecessarily complicated.

In contrast with either of the illustrated clauses, i would expect a
standardized xml interface to support coding of the following sort.

 static QName symFoo = sax?.??.intern("http://www.foo.com/ns/", "foo");
 static QName symBar = sax?.??.intern("http://www.foo.com/ns/", "bar");
 >   for each att in atts do
>    
>       if att == symFoo
>         doFoo(att.value)
>       else if att == symBar
>         doBar(att.value)
>       end
>   end

Anything else is looking for problems.
Yes, one could code this over a SAX which follows "option #2".
Why should each application, or application library, need to? Where's the benefit?

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:
> 
> > Will SAX2 namespace processing take this 'real-world' approach (which I
> > totally support), or are there going to be options for this?
> >
> > It sounded earlier like you expect namespace processing to be the domain of
> > the parser, not the application, so it seems like a live issue.
> 
> Basically, the difference in pseudo code is this:
> 
>   for each att in atts do
>     if att.uri == "http://www.foo.com/ns/" || att.uri == ""
>       if att.local == "foo"
>         doFoo(att.value)
>       else if att.local == "bar"
>         doBar(att.value)
>       end
>     end
>   end
> 
> vs. this:
> 
>   for each att in atts do
>     if att.uri == "http://www.foo.com/ns/"
>       if att.local == "foo"
>         doFoo(att.value)
>       else if att.local == "bar"
>         doBar(att.value)
>       end
>     end
>   end
> 
> In other words, there's not a very significant difference between the
> two.  The main problem is that the spec is just so much harder to read
> and understand that it had to be.
>


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Fri Jan  7 15:14:24 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Requirement for attributes with schema scope
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C746E@THOR>

Henry S. Thompson wrote

>>For the time being, the only schema-valid way to introduce an
>>attribute from other than the namespace partition scoped to the
>>containing element is by way of an attribute GROUP from another
>>namespace, e.g.
>>
>>  <type>
>>   . . .
>>   <attributeGroup ref='foo:baz'/>
>>  </type>

In the Dec draft, doesn't

<type>
...
	<anyAttribute>http://www.foo.com/namespace/foo<anyAttribute>
</type>

introduce attributes from other than the namespace partition scoped to the
containing element?

Are you saying that <anyAttribute> has been removed from subsequent WG
documents and the point is moot.

Another alternative would be to provide some indication that one attribute
group is the namespace scope attribute pool.  But you could not depending on
just finding "baz" in a top level attribute group since it could appear in
multiple top-level attribute groups.

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From James.Anderson at mecomnet.de  Fri Jan  7 15:22:39 2000
From: James.Anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:
> 
> > a. How does one do attribute defaulting in situations where the
> > namespaces matter. That is, in situations where one can't just treat
> > the document as if it were "xml-1.0-plain".
> 
> Declare the attribute -- it is irrelevant whether Namespaces matter or
> not.  Or is your question "how can you preserve an attribute default
> after a round trip through a processor that doesn't preserve the
> original Namespace prefixes"?
> 

No, that is not the issue. Namespaces matter only when an identity based on
prefixes would not have been sufficient. Otherwise, except for the ability to
bind xmlns="<uri>", the namespaces are redundant. In these cases where the
prefixes are not identical, that is, where the namespaces matter,
xml-1.0+namspaces, as ratified, doesn't work.

> 
> > b. How can one uphold the constraint, that the set of valid
> > "xml-1.0+namespaces" documents is identical with the set of valid
> > "xml-1.0-plain" documents. Mr Waldin's question is one case in point.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean.
> 
> If you're using "valid" the same way as the XML 1.0 spec does, then
> the set of valid documents that happens to contain Namespace
> declarations is a strict subset of the set of all valid XML 1.0
> documents; in other words, they are not identical.
> 
> ... it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
> not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
> (though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict conformance).

Hmm, we now have the class of invalid, but namespace conformant documents. I
recall hearing rather clear assertions to the contrary post-REC. Evidently the
winds have changed on this question.

> 
> > c. How does one specify an identity between a "name which is in no
> > namespace" and a "name in a namespace as declared in a
> > schema". Perhaps I'm just narrow-minded, but I sense a potential
> > contradiction in this notion.
> 
> This is an interesting problem, but what does it have to do with
> Namespaces?  All the Namespaces REC does is specify how to create
> elements and attributes with two-part names, like you can with methods
> or variables in Perl and Java (Namespace == package).

Not entirely. The REC is the origin of the "names which are in no namespace" concept.

> [discussion elided 'cause the questions have nothing to do with semantics.]
> 
> > These for starters. They follow from the root problem, that the REC
> > did ratify a complete model for the domain which it describes. It
> > was most disappointing to observe the extent to which the appendix
> > was disavowed. Were one to have taken something of that sort
> > seriously, such issues may have come to light, rather than being
> > "left to the application".
> 
> For "left to the application" substitute "left to higher-level specs".

Where higher-level is in the plural I hesitate to distinguish between the two
in the case of xml and namespaces. Remember Mr. Bray's frequent reference to
the "difficult things" truism. I would not be surprised that they both reduce
to naming.

> People were already preparing to start work on an XML Schema spec, and
> it didn't make sense for Namespaces to do a half-assed job trying to
> do part of schema's work for it and then leaving the schema people
> with all kinds of constraints.

I would have thought that names and schemas should have been separable.
They have been in other domains.

> 
> Good specifications are layered, with each one accomplishing a single,
> well defined task.  The Namespaces spec set out to answer the question
> "How do you represent a two-part name in XML 1.0 syntax?", not "How do
> you solve every possible problem with inheritance, identity, and
> validation in XML?"
> 

With which, with the exceptions of "identity" my questions remain, unconcerned...


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan  7 15:25:56 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Attribute defaulting to element NS may cause problems (was: Re: SAX2 NS 
 processing (was Re: Namespace question))
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <m3aemi7nk5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <200001071336.IAA18723@hesketh.net> <m3u2kqkmly.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876009E.8C51BE85@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <38760562.7ECBD878@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

If attributes are defaulted to the element's namespace in SAX, 
and you build a DOM tree of the parser output, access to 
unprefixed attributes will be unclear in DOM:

call getAttributeNS (null, ....) or getAttributeNS (elementNS, ....) ?

Also, a DOM writer that follows the namespace spec, would add 
prefixes to all unprefixed attributes (!!)

Thus, either the namespace specification should be simplified or
unprefixed attributes should not default to the element's namespace.

Best regards

Stefan

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From lauren at sqwest.bc.ca  Fri Jan  7 18:02:21 2000
From: lauren at sqwest.bc.ca (Lauren Wood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: is a prefix without a namespace legal?
In-Reply-To: <3875F17F.48541518@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <200001071757.JAA04070@mail.sqwest.bc.ca>

On 7 Jan 00, at 7:00, Ray Whitmer wrote:

> There is currently an exception for xml and xmlns as prefixes

This is because the namespace spec says that xml and xmlns 
prefixes are special cases: the xmlns prefix is not bound to a 
namespace URI at all, while the xml prefix is bound to a specific 
namespace URI and cannot be changed. Hence these prefixes had 
to be treated as special cases in the DOM as well.


Lauren

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan  7 18:57:41 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: XML Europe and XTech deadlines
Message-ID: <14454.14060.83649.978299@localhost.localdomain>

Marion Elledge at the GCA asked me to forward this:

> The deadline for papers for XML Europe is today, Friday, January 7.
> Review the procedures for paper submission on the GCA web site:
> http://www.gca.org Papers will be accepted through the weekend. The
> planning committee meets January 17-21 to make selections.  XML
> Europe 2000 takes place June 12-16 at the Palais De Congres in
> Paris, France.
> 
> Deadline extension for XTECH'2000 ends Monday, January 14th. Again,
> review the procedures for paper submission on the GCA web site:
> http://www.gca.org The program committee meets January 14th. No
> further extensions will offered.  XTECH '2000 is once again in San
> Jose, February 27-March 2. Send papers to XTECH2000@gca.org.
> 
> Marion L. Elledge
> Senior VP/IT
> Graphic Communications Association 
> melledge@gca.org
> www.gca.org
> 703-519-8193


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jan  7 19:16:38 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Requirement for attributes with schema scope
In-Reply-To: "Arnold, Curt"'s message of "Fri, 7 Jan 2000 08:12:02 -0700"
References: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C746E@THOR>
Message-ID: <f5bln61pu99.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Arnold, Curt" <Curt.Arnold@hyprotech.com> writes:

> Are you saying that <anyAttribute> has been removed from subsequent WG
> documents and the point is moot.

Sorry, you're absolutely right, e.g. <anyAttribute
namespace="##other"/> will allow, but not know how to validate,
attributes with qualified names in instances.

My remarks should have begun "the only schema-valid way to introduce
_and validate_ an attribute from other than the namespace partition
scoped to the containing element is . . . "

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Fri Jan  7 19:35:22 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Requirement for attributes with schema scope
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7473@THOR>

And some approach that allowed us to have "schema-scoped" attributes would
allow us to validate.  Maybe a less disruptive approach would be to allow a
scope attribute on a attribute declaration.  Something like:

<element name="coffee">
	<attribute name="temp" scope="schema">
		...

where scope would be an enumation of "schema" and "element" (with element as
the default) and it would be an error to have two identically named
attributes with schema scope within the same schema element.

-----Original Message-----
From: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk [mailto:ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk]
Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 1:17 PM
To: Arnold, Curt
Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'; 'www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org'
Subject: Re: Requirement for attributes with schema scope


"Arnold, Curt" <Curt.Arnold@hyprotech.com> writes:

> Are you saying that <anyAttribute> has been removed from subsequent WG
> documents and the point is moot.

Sorry, you're absolutely right, e.g. <anyAttribute
namespace="##other"/> will allow, but not know how to validate,
attributes with qualified names in instances.

My remarks should have begun "the only schema-valid way to introduce
_and validate_ an attribute from other than the namespace partition
scoped to the containing element is . . . "

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From edd at usefulinc.com  Fri Jan  7 20:19:37 2000
From: edd at usefulinc.com (Edd Dumbill)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: XML Europe and XTech deadlines
In-Reply-To: <14454.14060.83649.978299@localhost.localdomain>; from david@megginson.com on Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 01:56:44PM -0500
References: <14454.14060.83649.978299@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20000107201903.I25685@usefulinc.com>

On Fri, Jan 07, 2000 at 01:56:44PM -0500, David Megginson wrote:
> Marion Elledge at the GCA asked me to forward this:
> 
> > Deadline extension for XTECH'2000 ends Monday, January 14th. Again,

I just asked Marion, and this ought to read Monday, January 10th

-- Edd

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan  7 23:23:03 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
Message-ID: <200001072322.SAA19282@hesketh.net>

I'm looking around for a cheap - ideally open source - hierarchical
database to use with some XML experiments.  I'm aware of ADABAS and Tamino
from Software AG (which are way out of the price range) and dbb, a Berkeley
binary tree DB that gets used in lots of LDAP applications.  Simplicity is
a virtue - I'm not looking for something that does it all, just something I
can feed tree structures and get them back again.

I'd love to think such a thing exists in Java, but so far I haven't found
anything at all there, so I'll take what I can find.  If anyone knows of
anything, please let me know at simonstl@simonstl.com or post to the list.

Thanks!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From ed.nixon at LynnParkPlace.org  Sat Jan  8 00:30:38 2000
From: ed.nixon at LynnParkPlace.org (Ed Nixon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
In-Reply-To: <200001072322.SAA19282@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <000601bf596b$f93cb020$0100a8c0@lynnparknt1.iprimus.ca>

Same boat. Please post to the list!                 ...edN

> Simon St.Laurent
> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 6:23 PM
> Subject: hierarchical database for repository
> 
> 
> I'm looking around for a cheap - ideally open source - hierarchical
> database to use with some XML experiments.  I'm aware of 
> ADABAS and Tamino
> from Software AG (which are way out of the price range) and 
> dbb, a Berkeley
> binary tree DB that gets used in lots of LDAP applications.  
> Simplicity is
> a virtue - I'm not looking for something that does it all, 
> just something I
> can feed tree structures and get them back again.
> 
> I'd love to think such a thing exists in Java, but so far I 
> haven't found
> anything at all there, so I'll take what I can find.  If 
> anyone knows of
> anything, please let me know at simonstl@simonstl.com or post 
> to the list.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Simon St.Laurent


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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jan  8 02:54:45 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Well-formed and valid
In-Reply-To: james anderson's message of "Fri, 07 Jan 2000 16:28:23 +0100"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <m3iu15mfya.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>

james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:

> > ... it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
> > not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
> > (though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict conformance).
> 
> Hmm, we now have the class of invalid, but namespace conformant
> documents. I recall hearing rather clear assertions to the contrary
> post-REC. Evidently the winds have changed on this question.

C'mon, this is getting silly.  The XML 1.0 REC formally defines two
classes of documents:

  1. Well-formed.
  2. Well-formed and valid.

Any XML document without a DOCTYPE declaration is invalid by
definition, but if it is still well-formed XML, most XML-based specs
(including RDF, XSL, DOM, SAX, DocBook, XMI, Namespaces, etc. etc.)
can work with it.

It is reasonable to argue that allowing two classes of XML documents
was a mistake, but if so, it was a mistake made in the XML 1.0 REC,
not in the Namespaces REC.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Sat Jan  8 04:59:17 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Well-formed and valid
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de> <m3iu15mfya.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <00af01bf5997$27a93e80$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

> james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:
>
> > > ... it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
> > > not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
> > > (though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict conformance).

Well XHTML is no different from any other _document type_.  A document type
such as docbook or XHTML must conform to a DTD or it would not be a document
type!

There is nothing to stop you from using XHTML elements with a namespace in a
hybrid document.

Frank


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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Sat Jan  8 06:50:42 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
References: <000601bf596b$f93cb020$0100a8c0@lynnparknt1.iprimus.ca>
Message-ID: <3876DF3E.7585F6B7@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

Not a definite answer, but I may have at least some pointers for you ...

1) Ozone (http://www.ozone-db.org/ozone_main.html) is probably the
nearest project to what you're describing.

2) There is a category for this at the ODP :
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Data_Formats/Markup_Languages/XML/Tools/Databases/

3) We've created a mailing list to discuss similar subjects 
(http://www.egroups.com/group/xml-server/info.html)

Hope this helps.

Eric

Ed Nixon wrote:
> 
> Same boat. Please post to the list!                 ...edN
> 
> > Simon St.Laurent
> > Sent: Friday, January 07, 2000 6:23 PM
> > Subject: hierarchical database for repository
> >
> >
> > I'm looking around for a cheap - ideally open source - hierarchical
> > database to use with some XML experiments.  I'm aware of
> > ADABAS and Tamino
> > from Software AG (which are way out of the price range) and
> > dbb, a Berkeley
> > binary tree DB that gets used in lots of LDAP applications.
> > Simplicity is
> > a virtue - I'm not looking for something that does it all,
> > just something I
> > can feed tree structures and get them back again.
> >
> > I'd love to think such a thing exists in Java, but so far I
> > haven't found
> > anything at all there, so I'll take what I can find.  If
> > anyone knows of
> > anything, please let me know at simonstl@simonstl.com or post
> > to the list.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Simon St.Laurent
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Sat Jan  8 09:13:04 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: ANN: Oracle XSQL Pages & XSQL Servlet 0.9.8.6
Message-ID: <015e01bf59b8$0e308aa0$0d7b1990@us.oracle.com>

Oracle is excited to announce the 0.9.8.6 technology preview
release of Oracle XSQL Pages and the XSQL Servlet with major
new functionality.

-----------------[ Download Info ]-------------------
   http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/xsql_servlet/
         Click on "Software" to Download 
  Click on "Release Notes" for Full Documentation 
-----------------------------------------------------

XSQL Pages are server-side XML templates that make it easy
to exploit the powerful combination of SQL, XML and XSLT to
prototype and deploy dynamic, data-powered sites and web
services.

The XSQL Servlet installs into your favorite Java Servlet
environment and works with your favorite relational database,
making it dead easy to:
 
  -> Assemble XML "DataPages" from multiple SQL Query
     Results (including full support for Oracle8i's
     richly-structured XML Objects Views), local or remote
     XML resources, Stored Procedure Calls, etc.

  -> Transform the "DataPages" in the server using XSLT,
     optionally using stylesheets that are appropriate to
     the requesting client, including the ability to
     let the client to the stylesheet processing for IE5
     or other clients in the future that support this.

Our online support forum for XML is at:

     http://technet.oracle.com/support/bboard/discussions.htm

The XSQL Servlet demos (included in the release) are
installed on Oracle's OTN site and can be tested from the
comfort of your browser before you download if you choose:

     http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/demo/demo1.htm

This new 0.9.8.6 release includes...

More Documentation
==================
More extensive documentation and new tutorial material.

New Demos
=========
New and enhanced demos with additional notes describing key
points each demo is trying to illustrate.

New API's and JavaDoc
=====================
Programmatically process XSQL Pages from your own Java
programs using a new XSQLRequest object, as well as write
custom page "action handlers" with new JavaDoc and
example code.

New Features
============

<xsql:query> 
------------
The <query> element from previous releases is now part of
the xsql namespace and is referred to using the new
<xsql:query> syntax in your XSQL Page. A new section details
how to use <xsql:query> to produce XML query results with
nested structure.
              
<xsql:dml>
----------
Do DML and call stored procedures anywhere you need to in
your XSQL Pages.

<xsql:stylesheet-param>
-----------------------
Use parametrized XSLT Stylesheets and set the stylesheet
parameter values from your XSQL Page.

<xsql:insert-request>
---------------------
Automatically insert posted XML or HTML Form parameters into
the database.

<xsql:include-xml>
------------------
Include arbitrary XML resources at any point in your page by
relative or absolute URL.

<xsql:include-request-params> 
-----------------------------
Include key information like HTTP Parameters, Session
Variable values and Cookies into your XSQL Page for
addressing them in your stylesheet.
                               
<xsql:include-xsql>
-------------------
Include the results of one XSQL Page at any point inside
another. This allows sophisticated combinations of multiple
XML data sources and multiple XSLT transformations.

<xsql:include-owa>
------------------
Include the results of executing a stored procedure that
makes use of the Oracle Web Agent (OWA) packages inside the
database to generate XML.

<xsql:action>
-------------
Invoke a user-defined action handler, implemented in Java,
for executing custom logic and including custom XML
information into your XSQL Page.

_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/java
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml


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From vinokurov at mail.ru  Sat Jan  8 09:11:12 2000
From: vinokurov at mail.ru (Nikita Vinokurov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: XML Schema API
In-Reply-To: <38760562.7ECBD878@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001062333570.20564-100000@rksystems.com> <3876009E.8C51BE85@mecomnet.de> <38760562.7ECBD878@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <00010812123600.06899@sorokin.rphys.mipt.ru>

Hi,
Now you can download my XML Schema Part 1:Structures API
sceleton from our web-page:
http://yagel.newmail.ru/download.html.

Waiting for your opinion.


-- 
Nikita Vinokurov
Project Manager
YAGEL Open Source company
http://yagel.newmail.ru

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From stele at fxtech.com  Sat Jan  8 13:46:03 2000
From: stele at fxtech.com (Paul Miller)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Announce: XMLIO v0.6 released - push data/CDATA/comments
Message-ID: <38773FE1.5CB84A7E@fxtech.com>

I've added expat-style push handlers for data, CDATA, and comments to
XML::Input. This allows you to decide at each subelement whether to pull
the data inside your element handler or to have it pushed to you at a
different handler. The same goes for CDATA and comments. Like expat,
data is "chunked" to the data handlers. When all of the data for a
specific event has been delivered, a block of length 0 is sent to
indicate that there is no more data.

As usual, if you are not looking for a certain element and/or data, it
will be skipped automatically. These features are also provided without
any additional memory overhead, as is the goal of the XML::Input design.

I've also added two new sample applications:
dump.c - processes an XML file using a recursive element handler and
writes the input to another file (also times the process)
convert.cpp - a C++ version that uses XML::Output and also handles
comments and CDATA.

See the README and download 0.6 at http://www.fxtech.com/xmlio.

--
Paul Miller - stele@fxtech.com

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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jan  8 15:51:06 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Well-formed and valid
In-Reply-To: "Frank Boumphrey"'s message of "Sat, 8 Jan 2000 00:13:50 -0500"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de> <m3iu15mfya.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain> <00af01bf5997$27a93e80$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <m3so08wrx8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Frank Boumphrey" <bckman@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> > james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:
> >
> > > > ... it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
> > > > not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
> > > > (though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict conformance).
> 
> Well XHTML is no different from any other _document type_.  A document type
> such as docbook or XHTML must conform to a DTD or it would not be a document
> type!

Wrong.  A document type needs to conform to the specification that
defines it: the specification may or may not include a DTD, and may or
may not require the DTD to be used, but the DTD is at best an optional
(if extremely useful) part of a document type specification.

Here's an example of a document type whose specification does not
include a DTD:

  Memo Document Type
  ------------------

  Every memo document consists of a root element named "memo"
  with two element children: "number" and "body", optionally separated
  by whitespace.  The contents of the "number" element shall be a
  number between 1 and 99,999, assigned sequentially; the contents of
  the "body" element shall be text containing a minimum of one and a
  maximum of three sentences, using UK orthography.

Here's a document conforming to that document type:

  <?xml version="1.0"?>

  <memo>
   <number>2,126</number>
   <body>Look, mum, no DTD!</body>
  </memo>

Now, I could have written a DTD and required its use as *part* of the
document type specification:

  <!ELEMENT memo (number, body)>
  <!ELEMENT number (#PCDATA)>
  <!ELEMENT body (#PCDATA)>

However, it would be trivially easy to write documents that conform to 
the DTD but not to the document type:

  <?xml version="1.0"?>

  <!DOCTYPE memo SYSTEM "memo.dtd">

  <memo>
   <number>Let me not to the marriage of true minds</number>
   <body>123</body>
  </memo>



All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From donpark at docuverse.com  Sat Jan  8 16:23:14 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
In-Reply-To: <3876DF3E.7585F6B7@dyomedea.com>
Message-ID: <000001bf59f4$edb026e0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

Bowerbird has an open source XML database called XDBM.
I haven't looked under the cover yet but it might serve
your purpose.

http://www.bowerbird.com.au/XDBM/

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com

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From frichards at poet.com  Sat Jan  8 17:28:51 2000
From: frichards at poet.com (Frank Richards)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
Message-ID: <E126zfU-0007RQ-00@punch.ic.ac.uk>

Simon,

You can do what you want with the Poet OSS. It's an object database, which of course means 
it can be but needn't be hierarchical. It has complete Java bindings. There's a free eval 
version for download...You only have to pay when you start shipping that killer app.

I support Poet's Content Management System. This is the database the CMS is built on and 
it's good stuff. (Or I wouldn't have taken the job:))

Frank
On Fri, 7 Jan 2000 15:29:21 -0800, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

>
>
>I'm looking around for a cheap - ideally open source - hierarchical
>database to use with some XML experiments.  I'm aware of ADABAS and Tamino
>from Software AG (which are way out of the price range) and dbb, a Berkeley
>binary tree DB that gets used in lots of LDAP applications.  Simplicity is
>a virtue - I'm not looking for something that does it all, just something I
>can feed tree structures and get them back again.


Frank Richards
Poet Software
781-238-0208 x333
frichards@poet.com



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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jan  8 18:50:30 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
Message-ID: <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain>

When I released SAX 1.0 nearly two years ago, I explicitly put it into
the public domain rather than using an open-source license -- the idea
was to rely on peer-pressure rather than legal recourse to ensure the
integrity of SAX, and to avoid even the suggestion that I might try to
restrict SAX in any way to try to make money from it.

As we move to SAX2, I was wondering what licensing we should use?  Is
public domain still OK?  It is *very* important to me, at least, that
SAX's license be as friendly as possible to commercial software
developers, so the GPL is out (though the LGPL might be OK).  MPL
looks pretty good as well.  I'm not much of a licensing wonk, though,
and would be grateful for advice from those who have spent more time
thinking about this kind of thing.

I'll send a private note to Eric Raymond as well -- most of the
open-source movement has been concerned with licensing software, not
interfaces, and I'll be interested to hear what he thinks.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan  8 19:30:48 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Sterday morning mind games or News from Didier's lab
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEBBELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

After two hours of cross-country skiing and getting back to Didier's lab to
Work on the DSSSL-2 scope of work. I started daydreaming about XSTL,
multiple groves path access, Onimark, procedural vs rule based systems,
etc...

These funny constructs emerged:

<xsl:template match="booklist/item">
<!cdata[
	(make display-group
		(make box
			(literal "Is this weirdo??")
			(make rule)
			(make paragraph)
		)
	)
	]]>
	<xsl:apply-templates select="."/>
</xsl:template>

or this one

node "Booklist" 'this is an XPath expression matched to the <booklist>
element node
	output "<html>" & _
	 	 "<body>"
	access_database()
	output "</body>" & _
	 	 "</html>
end node

sub access_database()
	Set db = getobject("ADODB.Connection")
	db.Open "Yop", "yop", "yop"
	set Items = db.Execute("select * from item")
	do while not Items.EOF
		output "<title>" & Items("title") & </title>"
		output "<author> & Items("author") & </author>"
	Loop
end sub

or even better, this one:

node "Booklist" 'this is an XPath expression matched to the <booklist>
element node
	<html>
		<body>
		access_database
		</body>
	</html>
end node

sub access_database()
	Set db = getobject("ADODB.Connection")
	db.Open "Yop", "yop", "yop"
	set Items = db.Execute("select * from item")
	do while not Items.EOF
		<title>Items("title")</title>
		<author>Items("author")</author>
	Loop
end sub

I particularly like the last one because it merges the procedural world and
the rule based world. It also keeps the template kind of constructs without
the ugly <% %> as found in ASP or JSP. You can as well imagine the same
constructs with a Java syntax, a Javascript syntax, a Perl syntax, a tcl
syntax or a Python syntax. Let's hope now that priests won't burn me for
heresy :-))

Cheers

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From donpark at docuverse.com  Sat Jan  8 20:45:25 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
Message-ID: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
the group behind it, the SML-DEV.

So far, we achieved tentative concensus on following
issues:

  SML is a strict subset of XML    
  SML supports:
    UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.    
    empty elements.    
    numeric character entities.
    predefined character entities.
  SML does not support:
    DTD
    CDATA sections
    XML and text declarations
    Processing Instructions
    Comments
    Entities (except character entities)
  SML attribute names must not conflict with
    child element names.

We are currently trying to formulate an information
model for SML before moving forward to tackle tougher
issues such as attribute, mixed content, and namespace
support.  I think SML represents an unique opportunity
to do things right in the right order.  In contrast,
XML information model is still being worked on, two
years after XML syntax.

There have been some wildly innovative ideas that came
up in SML information model threads: attributed grammars,
colored nodes, rhythmic encoding, unisyntax data model,
and even some Grove model variations.  Beauty of some of
these ideas can be appreciated immediately.  For example,
following is a rather concise notation for our version of
the Groves model:

  node := character | map(string,list(node))

other versions that followed removes the distinction
between a character and a map, and then adds context:

  node = map(string, list(node))
  node = tuple(parent, map(string, list(node)))

Some ideas were less apparent but fantastic nonetheless.
For example, the 'colored node' proposal starts with SML
having just black and white  nodes (name and value),
then treats CSML (Colored-SML), CXML (Common-XML), XML,
XHTML, and arbitrary markup languages as SML with nodes
colored differently (i.e. attribute, PI, comment, etc.).
'colors' differ from 'types' in that the colors are
not 'in' the model but provided by other means such
as parsers or 'painters'.  Leigh Dodds prepared an example
titled "SML Color Book" which shows how the 'painting' is
done.

  http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/sml/coloringbook2.html

While these ideas might seem a bit 'off-the-ground' to you,
most members of SML-DEV are as practical as they come, and
plan to use SML and related technologies to build commercial
products.  E-commerce, B2B or B2C data exchange in particular,
seems to be the most common application SML-DEV members are
interested in using SML in.  Just as the design of XML was
influenced by the primary interests of its inventors,
publishing documents on the web, SML's design will likely be
heavily influenced by our interests in e-commerce and data
exchange.  After all, SML will be our child.

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
unsubscribe xml-dev
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sat Jan  8 22:08:12 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
In-Reply-To: <E126zfU-0007RQ-00@punch.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200001082208.RAA05721@hesketh.net>

First, the suggestions I got privately:

* pse-pro - An object database in Java
* Meta-kit (http://www.equi4.com/metakit/), a C++ database engine

Now, what I'm really looking for and more of what I hope to do with it:

I'm trying to build an extremely lightweight repository for XML.
Basically, it'll take SAX events going in, store the data hierarchically
(and in the right place in the DB), and then be able to spit SAX events
back out from any given location.  Management and searching are useful
features in the long run, but for right now I'm just looking for something
that will let me store lots of nodes persistently without a lot of
overhead, and without restrictions on length.

Everything will be text - BLOB storage is unimportant.  I don't want to be
tied to a particular object representation of the information at this
point, making the DOM a lot more than I need at this point.  While an
object database might be okay, it's not the 'object' part I care about -
it's simply being able to store hierarchically linked nodes persistently.
(Being able to change the links between them occasionally is also
important.)  Multi-user access is not presently important.  The simpler the
API, the better, at this point.

I'm sort of going back to the late 60's and early 70's, before those
relational people gave us all kinds of strange and highly useful ideas
about structuring data.

Fortunately, this isn't a commercial project, so you're all quite welcome
to take any of these ideas and run with them.  If I don't find anything
that quite meets this level of simplicity, I suppose I'll roll my own.

Thanks!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Sun Jan  9 02:25:33 2000
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
References: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <3877F30A.4965A43A@finetuning.com>

if anyone else responds to this email, and, if it, in fact does lead to
a thread on the xml-dev list about SML, I can't be held responsible for
my actions...:-)

lisa

(hint: those who care about sml can go check on the sml-dev list, any
time they want right? -- just checking, thanks.)

Don Park wrote:
> 
> Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
> of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
> the group behind it, the SML-DEV.
> 
> So far, we achieved tentative concensus on following
> issues:
> 
>   SML is a strict subset of XML
>   SML supports:
>     UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.
>     empty elements.
>     numeric character entities.
>     predefined character entities.
>   SML does not support:
>     DTD
>     CDATA sections
>     XML and text declarations
>     Processing Instructions
>     Comments
>     Entities (except character entities)
>   SML attribute names must not conflict with
>     child element names.
> 
> We are currently trying to formulate an information
> model for SML before moving forward to tackle tougher
> issues such as attribute, mixed content, and namespace
> support.  I think SML represents an unique opportunity
> to do things right in the right order.  In contrast,
> XML information model is still being worked on, two
> years after XML syntax.
> 
> There have been some wildly innovative ideas that came
> up in SML information model threads: attributed grammars,
> colored nodes, rhythmic encoding, unisyntax data model,
> and even some Grove model variations.  Beauty of some of
> these ideas can be appreciated immediately.  For example,
> following is a rather concise notation for our version of
> the Groves model:
> 
>   node := character | map(string,list(node))
> 
> other versions that followed removes the distinction
> between a character and a map, and then adds context:
> 
>   node = map(string, list(node))
>   node = tuple(parent, map(string, list(node)))
> 
> Some ideas were less apparent but fantastic nonetheless.
> For example, the 'colored node' proposal starts with SML
> having just black and white  nodes (name and value),
> then treats CSML (Colored-SML), CXML (Common-XML), XML,
> XHTML, and arbitrary markup languages as SML with nodes
> colored differently (i.e. attribute, PI, comment, etc.).
> 'colors' differ from 'types' in that the colors are
> not 'in' the model but provided by other means such
> as parsers or 'painters'.  Leigh Dodds prepared an example
> titled "SML Color Book" which shows how the 'painting' is
> done.
> 
>   http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/sml/coloringbook2.html
> 
> While these ideas might seem a bit 'off-the-ground' to you,
> most members of SML-DEV are as practical as they come, and
> plan to use SML and related technologies to build commercial
> products.  E-commerce, B2B or B2C data exchange in particular,
> seems to be the most common application SML-DEV members are
> interested in using SML in.  Just as the design of XML was
> influenced by the primary interests of its inventors,
> publishing documents on the web, SML's design will likely be
> heavily influenced by our interests in e-commerce and data
> exchange.  After all, SML will be our child.
> 
> Best,
> 
> Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
> Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sun Jan  9 02:56:39 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
In-Reply-To: <3877F30A.4965A43A@finetuning.com>
References: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <200001090256.VAA15104@hesketh.net>

At 06:31 PM 1/8/00 -0800, Lisa Rein wrote:
>(hint: those who care about sml can go check on the sml-dev list, any
>time they want right? -- just checking, thanks.)
>
>Don Park wrote:
>> 
>> Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
>> of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
>> the group behind it, the SML-DEV.

Thanks to Don for posting the update here - getting an occasional summary
of SML activity on this list is a lot easier for me than tracking activity
on the SML list when I'm already two months behind its development.

And I'm glad to see that it's a strict subset of XML!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan  9 04:04:31 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:06 2004
Subject: Well-formed and valid
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de> <m3iu15mfya.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain> <00af01bf5997$27a93e80$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net> <m3so08wrx8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <011701bf5a58$a8901520$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

> Wrong.  A document type needs to conform to the specification that
> defines it: the specification

Of course David is quite right! I should have said that a document must
conform to a schema, and that a schema can be a DTD, or a 'schema' or a
narative description, etc. ...

Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
To: xml-dev <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 9:37 AM
Subject: Re: Well-formed and valid


> "Frank Boumphrey" <bckman@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
> > > james anderson <James.Anderson@mecomnet.de> writes:
> > >
> > > > > ... it is possible to have a document that is well-formed but
> > > > > not valid XML 1.0, but still conforms to Namespaces, RDF, or XLink
> > > > > (though not XHTML, which requires validity for strict
conformance).
> >
> > Well XHTML is no different from any other _document type_.  A document
type
> > such as docbook or XHTML must conform to a DTD or it would not be a
document
> > type!
>
> Wrong.  A document type needs to conform to the specification that
> defines it: the specification may or may not include a DTD, and may or
> may not require the DTD to be used, but the DTD is at best an optional
> (if extremely useful) part of a document type specification.
>
> Here's an example of a document type whose specification does not
> include a DTD:
>
>   Memo Document Type
>   ------------------
>
>   Every memo document consists of a root element named "memo"
>   with two element children: "number" and "body", optionally separated
>   by whitespace.  The contents of the "number" element shall be a
>   number between 1 and 99,999, assigned sequentially; the contents of
>   the "body" element shall be text containing a minimum of one and a
>   maximum of three sentences, using UK orthography.
>
> Here's a document conforming to that document type:
>
>   <?xml version="1.0"?>
>
>   <memo>
>    <number>2,126</number>
>    <body>Look, mum, no DTD!</body>
>   </memo>
>
> Now, I could have written a DTD and required its use as *part* of the
> document type specification:
>
>   <!ELEMENT memo (number, body)>
>   <!ELEMENT number (#PCDATA)>
>   <!ELEMENT body (#PCDATA)>
>
> However, it would be trivially easy to write documents that conform to
> the DTD but not to the document type:
>
>   <?xml version="1.0"?>
>
>   <!DOCTYPE memo SYSTEM "memo.dtd">
>
>   <memo>
>    <number>Let me not to the marriage of true minds</number>
>    <body>123</body>
>   </memo>
>
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David
>
> --
> David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
>            http://www.megginson.com/
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message;
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> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Sun Jan  9 04:08:18 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
References: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <012201bf5a59$3463ad00$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

Whereas I think the SML effort is laudable, I could never imagine using a
standard that does not allow comments!

At my age I have difficulty remembering where i put my bifocals, (they are
on my nose!) yet alone trying to remember why exactly i used a particular
tag name for an element!

frank
----- Original Message -----
From: Don Park <donpark@docuverse.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 3:47 PM
Subject: SML Status Report


> Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
> of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
> the group behind it, the SML-DEV.
>
> So far, we achieved tentative concensus on following
> issues:
>
>   SML is a strict subset of XML
>   SML supports:
>     UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.
>     empty elements.
>     numeric character entities.
>     predefined character entities.
>   SML does not support:
>     DTD
>     CDATA sections
>     XML and text declarations
>     Processing Instructions
>     Comments
>     Entities (except character entities)
>   SML attribute names must not conflict with
>     child element names.
>
> We are currently trying to formulate an information
> model for SML before moving forward to tackle tougher
> issues such as attribute, mixed content, and namespace
> support.  I think SML represents an unique opportunity
> to do things right in the right order.  In contrast,
> XML information model is still being worked on, two
> years after XML syntax.
>
> There have been some wildly innovative ideas that came
> up in SML information model threads: attributed grammars,
> colored nodes, rhythmic encoding, unisyntax data model,
> and even some Grove model variations.  Beauty of some of
> these ideas can be appreciated immediately.  For example,
> following is a rather concise notation for our version of
> the Groves model:
>
>   node := character | map(string,list(node))
>
> other versions that followed removes the distinction
> between a character and a map, and then adds context:
>
>   node = map(string, list(node))
>   node = tuple(parent, map(string, list(node)))
>
> Some ideas were less apparent but fantastic nonetheless.
> For example, the 'colored node' proposal starts with SML
> having just black and white  nodes (name and value),
> then treats CSML (Colored-SML), CXML (Common-XML), XML,
> XHTML, and arbitrary markup languages as SML with nodes
> colored differently (i.e. attribute, PI, comment, etc.).
> 'colors' differ from 'types' in that the colors are
> not 'in' the model but provided by other means such
> as parsers or 'painters'.  Leigh Dodds prepared an example
> titled "SML Color Book" which shows how the 'painting' is
> done.
>
>   http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/sml/coloringbook2.html
>
> While these ideas might seem a bit 'off-the-ground' to you,
> most members of SML-DEV are as practical as they come, and
> plan to use SML and related technologies to build commercial
> products.  E-commerce, B2B or B2C data exchange in particular,
> seems to be the most common application SML-DEV members are
> interested in using SML in.  Just as the design of XML was
> influenced by the primary interests of its inventors,
> publishing documents on the web, SML's design will likely be
> heavily influenced by our interests in e-commerce and data
> exchange.  After all, SML will be our child.
>
> Best,
>
> Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
> Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message;
> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From donpark at docuverse.com  Sun Jan  9 08:29:19 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
In-Reply-To: <012201bf5a59$3463ad00$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <000001bf5a7b$e41f5880$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

Frank Boumphrey wrote:
>Whereas I think the SML effort is laudable, I could never 
>imagine using a standard that does not allow comments!

No Comment. <g>

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From digitome at iol.ie  Sun Jan  9 11:18:04 2000
From: digitome at iol.ie (Sean McGrath)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
In-Reply-To: <3877F30A.4965A43A@finetuning.com>
References: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000109105825.00a20100@gpo.iol.ie>

[Lisa Rein]
>if anyone else responds to this email, and, if it, in fact does lead to
>a thread on the xml-dev list about SML, I can't be held responsible for
>my actions...:-)
>
>lisa
>
>(hint: those who care about sml can go check on the sml-dev list, any
>time they want right? -- just checking, thanks.)
>

Oh, you can be held responsible for your actions ok! You
are laying flame bait with this rude, condescending,
dismissive e-mail. You think you can just walk away from
it giggling? Get a grip Lisa!

Don? thanks for the summary. Lisa? Please send
any consequential inflammable material directly
to me rather than to the list.

regards,
Sean McGrath

>Don Park wrote:
>> 
>> Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
>> of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
>> the group behind it, the SML-DEV.
>> 
>> So far, we achieved tentative concensus on following
>> issues:
>> 
>>   SML is a strict subset of XML
>>   SML supports:
>>     UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.
>>     empty elements.
>>     numeric character entities.
>>     predefined character entities.
>>   SML does not support:
>>     DTD
>>     CDATA sections
>>     XML and text declarations
>>     Processing Instructions
>>     Comments
>>     Entities (except character entities)
>>   SML attribute names must not conflict with
>>     child element names.
>> 
>> We are currently trying to formulate an information
>> model for SML before moving forward to tackle tougher
>> issues such as attribute, mixed content, and namespace
>> support.  I think SML represents an unique opportunity
>> to do things right in the right order.  In contrast,
>> XML information model is still being worked on, two
>> years after XML syntax.
>> 
>> There have been some wildly innovative ideas that came
>> up in SML information model threads: attributed grammars,
>> colored nodes, rhythmic encoding, unisyntax data model,
>> and even some Grove model variations.  Beauty of some of
>> these ideas can be appreciated immediately.  For example,
>> following is a rather concise notation for our version of
>> the Groves model:
>> 
>>   node := character | map(string,list(node))
>> 
>> other versions that followed removes the distinction
>> between a character and a map, and then adds context:
>> 
>>   node = map(string, list(node))
>>   node = tuple(parent, map(string, list(node)))
>> 
>> Some ideas were less apparent but fantastic nonetheless.
>> For example, the 'colored node' proposal starts with SML
>> having just black and white  nodes (name and value),
>> then treats CSML (Colored-SML), CXML (Common-XML), XML,
>> XHTML, and arbitrary markup languages as SML with nodes
>> colored differently (i.e. attribute, PI, comment, etc.).
>> 'colors' differ from 'types' in that the colors are
>> not 'in' the model but provided by other means such
>> as parsers or 'painters'.  Leigh Dodds prepared an example
>> titled "SML Color Book" which shows how the 'painting' is
>> done.
>> 
>>   http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/sml/coloringbook2.html
>> 
>> While these ideas might seem a bit 'off-the-ground' to you,
>> most members of SML-DEV are as practical as they come, and
>> plan to use SML and related technologies to build commercial
>> products.  E-commerce, B2B or B2C data exchange in particular,
>> seems to be the most common application SML-DEV members are
>> interested in using SML in.  Just as the design of XML was
>> influenced by the primary interests of its inventors,
>> publishing documents on the web, SML's design will likely be
>> heavily influenced by our interests in e-commerce and data
>> exchange.  After all, SML will be our child.
>> 
>> Best,
>> 
>> Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
>> Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
>> 
>> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
>> unsubscribe xml-dev
>> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message;
>> subscribe xml-dev-digest
>> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
>unsubscribe xml-dev
>To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
>subscribe xml-dev-digest
>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>
>
>

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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Sun Jan  9 17:25:08 2000
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
References: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com> <3.0.6.32.20000109105825.00a20100@gpo.iol.ie>
Message-ID: <3878C5E8.D51DE3A9@finetuning.com>

No you're right.  i'm sorry.

please excuse my whiny, somewhat flippant behavior everyone.

grip attained :-)

lisa

Sean McGrath wrote:
> 
> [Lisa Rein]
> >if anyone else responds to this email, and, if it, in fact does lead to
> >a thread on the xml-dev list about SML, I can't be held responsible for
> >my actions...:-)
> >
> >lisa
> >
> >(hint: those who care about sml can go check on the sml-dev list, any
> >time they want right? -- just checking, thanks.)
> >
> 
> Oh, you can be held responsible for your actions ok! You
> are laying flame bait with this rude, condescending,
> dismissive e-mail. You think you can just walk away from
> it giggling? Get a grip Lisa!
> 
> Don? thanks for the summary. Lisa? Please send
> any consequential inflammable material directly
> to me rather than to the list.
> 
> regards,
> Sean McGrath
> 
> >Don Park wrote:
> >>
> >> Quite a few people have been asking me about the status
> >> of SML.  This is a status report on the SML effort and
> >> the group behind it, the SML-DEV.
> >>
> >> So far, we achieved tentative concensus on following
> >> issues:
> >>
> >>   SML is a strict subset of XML
> >>   SML supports:
> >>     UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.
> >>     empty elements.
> >>     numeric character entities.
> >>     predefined character entities.
> >>   SML does not support:
> >>     DTD
> >>     CDATA sections
> >>     XML and text declarations
> >>     Processing Instructions
> >>     Comments
> >>     Entities (except character entities)
> >>   SML attribute names must not conflict with
> >>     child element names.
> >>
> >> We are currently trying to formulate an information
> >> model for SML before moving forward to tackle tougher
> >> issues such as attribute, mixed content, and namespace
> >> support.  I think SML represents an unique opportunity
> >> to do things right in the right order.  In contrast,
> >> XML information model is still being worked on, two
> >> years after XML syntax.
> >>
> >> There have been some wildly innovative ideas that came
> >> up in SML information model threads: attributed grammars,
> >> colored nodes, rhythmic encoding, unisyntax data model,
> >> and even some Grove model variations.  Beauty of some of
> >> these ideas can be appreciated immediately.  For example,
> >> following is a rather concise notation for our version of
> >> the Groves model:
> >>
> >>   node := character | map(string,list(node))
> >>
> >> other versions that followed removes the distinction
> >> between a character and a map, and then adds context:
> >>
> >>   node = map(string, list(node))
> >>   node = tuple(parent, map(string, list(node)))
> >>
> >> Some ideas were less apparent but fantastic nonetheless.
> >> For example, the 'colored node' proposal starts with SML
> >> having just black and white  nodes (name and value),
> >> then treats CSML (Colored-SML), CXML (Common-XML), XML,
> >> XHTML, and arbitrary markup languages as SML with nodes
> >> colored differently (i.e. attribute, PI, comment, etc.).
> >> 'colors' differ from 'types' in that the colors are
> >> not 'in' the model but provided by other means such
> >> as parsers or 'painters'.  Leigh Dodds prepared an example
> >> titled "SML Color Book" which shows how the 'painting' is
> >> done.
> >>
> >>   http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccslrd/sml/coloringbook2.html
> >>
> >> While these ideas might seem a bit 'off-the-ground' to you,
> >> most members of SML-DEV are as practical as they come, and
> >> plan to use SML and related technologies to build commercial
> >> products.  E-commerce, B2B or B2C data exchange in particular,
> >> seems to be the most common application SML-DEV members are
> >> interested in using SML in.  Just as the design of XML was
> >> influenced by the primary interests of its inventors,
> >> publishing documents on the web, SML's design will likely be
> >> heavily influenced by our interests in e-commerce and data
> >> exchange.  After all, SML will be our child.
> >>
> >> Best,
> >>
> >> Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
> >> Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
> >>
> >> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> >> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> >> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> >> unsubscribe xml-dev
> >> To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
> message;
> >> subscribe xml-dev-digest
> >> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> >
> >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> >To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> >unsubscribe xml-dev
> >To subscribe to the digests, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> >subscribe xml-dev-digest
> >List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
> >
> >
> >
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
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> subscribe xml-dev-digest
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From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu  Sun Jan  9 18:07:24 2000
From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: CFP for a workshop on search results
In-Reply-To: <380ED5A5.A86D4724@praxis.cz>
References: <199910201609.MAA04836@westnet.com>
 <199910201533.LAA09097@hesketh.net>
 <199910201814.OAA22896@westnet.com>
Message-ID: <200001091806.NAA24783@westnet.com>

This may be slightly off-topic for the list, as it's not XML specific, but I
figured
there are enough people here interested in both improving online searching and
hypertext to justify passing this along.  Apologies to those who've already
got
it
in their mail queue:


=======================
Information Doors -- Where Information Search and Hypertext Link

May 30th 2000
San Antonio, Texas, USA

http://www.ics.mq.edu.au/~einat/info_doors/

A workshop held in conjunction with the
ACM Hypertext conference (www.ht00.org/)
=======================

Introduction
The purpose of this workshop is to tackle the problem of creating new
hypertexts on-the-fly for representing other hypertext documents in the
context of search results.

Online search results are, no doubt, a form of hypertext created
on-the-fly. Search results pages are also probably the most frequently
seen hypertext form of writing nowadays. However, the research community
tends to identify the presentation search results with Information
Retrieval research. This workshop will consider search results as a form
of hypertext, encouraging discussion about the nature of this
dynamically created textual point-of-departure.

The task of reading from a screen is not a trivial one, nor is the task
of navigating between online texts. Even less trivial is creating a new
text to represent other texts that are interconnected. In the case of
hypertext representation of search results these tasks are combined to
create a new on-screen text that describes and links other texts or
entities. The purpose of this workshop is to tackle the problem of
creating new hypertexts on-the-fly for representing other hypertext
documents in the context of search results. The workshop will focus on
the textual aspects of the problem:

- How texts are read online?
- How previously unseen documents might be presented in text to people
  who search for information?
- How people navigate through textual search results?
- What are the informative role and value of the newly created
  intermediate page?
- Does it influence the reading of the documents followed by users?
- Does it change the focus and the meaning of the texts as they are
  perceived by readers?
- Are there any emerging textual or language conventions of presentation
  within hypertext systems and among hypertext authors that can be used
  in order to facilitate navigation through search results (e.g. naming of
  links conventions on the web, similarities in annotation patterns in
  annotation systems, use of titles and paragraph arrangements and
positioning,
use
  of lists and preferred methods of list ordering, and authors' frequent
  vocabulary choices).

The workshop aims to bring together participants from many disciplines
such as Human-Computer-Interaction (HCI), Information Retrieval (IR),
Natural Language Processing (NLP), Digital Library (DL), applied
psychology and psycho-linguistics, to discuss the nature of one of the
most frequently seen hypertext presentation in recent years -- online
search results. It will address the problem of textual presentation and
hypertext representations of search results by looking at evaluations
and studies of hypertext representations, studies about interaction with
texts, how text representations should be designed in terms of language
coherence and on-screen/online reading limitations, how to improve
navigation with a smarter choice of textual representation, etc. The
term 'textual representation' relates to how a document or a
group-of-documents is represented in text (short or long texts,
coherently summarised or organised by fixed fields like author, title,
last updated, citations, generating descriptions, extracting passages,
and so on). We will aim for gathering our knowledge to enhance and
integrate our experience about hypertext in order to improve the options
users are presented with while searching for information. The goal of
the workshop is to create an interdisciplinary community that is able to
address issues concerning search results presentation in the context of
an online hypertext system.

The workshop will specifically focus on the textual representation of
results. It will not look at graphical representations of search results
unless these shed new light on a textual issue, such as a comparison
between textual and graphical representations of documents. The
following list of suggested topics is only a short one and authors are
encouraged to add more related issues and directions of investigations
that are missing from it.

Topics

Issues of presentation
- Choosing what information to show about found entities
  (summaries, titles, links, annotations, additional related information,
  etc.)
- Grouping of results
- Labelling Groups of documents
- Creating hierarchies of results
- Comparisons between textual & graphical representations of results

Issues of results refinement
- Similarities detected between results (represented in text)
- Query refinement (textual options)

Issues of evaluation
- How results are read
- Does presentation change users navigation experience
- Different users - different presentations?
- Large scale studies
- Task-specific studies

Issues of speed and efficiency
Commercial applications


Important Dates
    Submission of papers - 5 April 2000
    Notification of acceptance - 30 April 2000
    Workshop - 30 May 2000


Submission
Papers are due on the 5th of April 2000. All papers should be submitted
electronically via email (sent to einat@ics.mq.edu.au). PDF submissions
are preferred (if this is not possible then try to send it as a .txt,
.ps or MSWord file). Papers should be no longer than 6 pages.


Workshop Organiser:
  Einat Amitay (Macquarie University & CSIRO)
  einat@ics.mq.edu.au

Committee:
  Chaomei Chen (IS & Computing, Brunel University)
  Mary Czerwinski (Microsoft)
  Andrew Dillon (SLIS, Indiana University)
  Sue Dumais (Microsoft)
  Raya Fidel (SLIS, University of Washington)
  Gene Golovchinsky (FXPAL)
  Stephen Green (Sun Microsystems)
  Christina Haas (English, Kent State University)
  Johndan Johnson-Eilola (English, Purdue University)
  Chris Manning (CS & Linguistics, Stanford University)
  Vibhu Mittal (Just Research)


Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU  |  (......)
Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley     |  \ *  * /
Berkeley, CA 94720-6000    (510) 642-5168          |  \  <>  /
"Well, it looks easy enough...."                   |   \ -- /  SGNORMPF!!!
         -- From the Famous Last Words file        |    ||||

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To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
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From dvint at slip.net  Sun Jan  9 21:16:56 2000
From: dvint at slip.net (Dan Vint)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XSLT simplified syntax
Message-ID: <4.1.20000109155217.0099d620@pop.slip.net>

Here is yet another question on namespaces that I came up with after looking at
the XSLT specification and its simplified syntax. And let me go a little
further back to HyTime.

I understand (sort of) how an attribute on any'ol element can be pointed to or
mapped to an attribute in a different namespace by using a prefix to the
attribute name as shown here:

<html xsl:version="1.0"
                xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
                xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/strict">

I also thought that architectural forms from HyTime allowed me to say this
element of whatever name I specify should be treated like this other element
over here - I don't remember what the syntax is for it by I have sort of
thought of namespaces as being related to this functionality.

What I'm looking for is the syntax in XML/namespaces that would allow me to say
(in the above example)
that my element <html> should be treated as <xsl:stylesheet> and thus allow me
to use content from the HTML content model for the element <html> and the
content for the <xsl:stylesheet>. Of course I would use the namespace prefix
for those elements as well.

Is there a method for aliasing two elements like this?

There seems to be an indication that an xsl:stylesheet modeled style sheet
should work the same as a stylesheet somehow being managed in a literal result
element (see the requirements for the version and other attributes in this
case), but then the only example shown in the spec (and the only model that I
can think of) seems to fall squarely into the simplified syntax model which
then has the restrictions about only using instruction elements - am I just
mixing these two ideas up? 

Is the simplified syntax just a stricter set of requirements, but the more
general form of using a literal result element as the document root and
spreading xsl:xxxx top-level elements is allowed in the more general case?

..dan

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Vint                                       http://www.dvint.com
Author: SGML at Work   	http://www.slip.net/~dvint/pubs/sgmlatwork.shtml 
                                                       mailto:dvint@slip.net
    
Calian                                              Voice:804-975-3482
mailto:d.vint@calian.com
Charlottesville, VA Office                http://www.calian.com              


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From rev-bob at gotc.com  Sun Jan  9 22:52:58 2000
From: rev-bob at gotc.com (rev-bob@gotc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
Message-ID: <200001091752218.SM01076@Unknown.>

> David Megginson wrote:
> > 
> > Here are the tricky points about Namespaces:
> > 
> > 1. Namespace URIs are just unique identifiers, like Java or Perl
> >    package names; they don't (necessarily) point to anything.
> > 
> > 2. There can be a default Namespace for element names but not for
> >    attribute names.
> > 
> > 3. Not withstanding #2, some apps may treat unprefixed attribute names
> >    as if they belong to the same Namespace as the corresponding
> >    element name.

Seems from here that a simple containment-based default scheme would avoid a lot of 
headaches in this matter.  That is, unless X has an explicit namespace, X defaults to the 
namespace of its parent - whether X is an attribute (parent = element) or an element 
(parent = containing element).  That certainly seemed to be what the XHTML spec 
implied; define the namespace for <html>, and everything contained within the html 
element defaults to the html namespace unless otherwise noted.

As it stands, I really don't like the idea of having to prefix each and every element name 
and attribute name with a namespace prefix just to ensure that the intent is clear.  
Defining the deltas ("here's where the namespace changes") seems *much* more 
logical...not to mention being easier to maintain and easier to read.  (Yeah, tacking a 
namespace onto every token may not seem like a big deal when generating a document 
- but have you ever tried to *modify* such a monstrosity?)

For a basic example of what I mean, in hopes of making my intentions clearer, take this 
fragment - assuming that all referenced namespaces have been defined, of course.

<rbns:fragment name="Fred" creator="Rev. Bob">
<name><first>Robert</first><last>Hood</last></name>
<htmlns:p align="left">Here's a bit of <b bubbans:foo="bar">XHTML</b> thrown into 
the mix.</p>
<name><first>Joe</first><last>Thomas</last></name>
</fragment>

What I am proposing would make that equal to this namespace-explicit fragment:

<rbns:fragment rbns:name="Fred" rbns:creator="Rev. Bob">
<rbns:name><rbns:first>Robert</rbns:first><rbns:last>Hood</rbns:last></rbns:name>
<htmlns:p htmlns:align="left">Here's a bit of <htmlns:b 
bubbans:foo="bar">XHTML</htmlns:b> thrown into the mix.</htmlns:p>
<rbns:name><rbns:first>Joe</rbns:first><rbns:last>Thomas</rbns:last></rbns:name>
</rbns:fragment>

That is, by defining "fragment" as belonging to namespace rbns, I am defining the 
attributes of "fragment" and the children of "fragment" as belonging to the same 
namespace by default.  With the "p" element, I declare that it belongs to the htmlns 
namespace, along with (by default) its children and attributes.  With the "b" element, for 
some reason, I need to attach an attribute from the bubbans namespace - so I mark just 
that attribute as belonging to a different space.  When "p" closes, so does the htmlns 
fragment, and the default namespace reverts back to rbns.

Simple enough?



 Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
  Get Off The Cross!  | http://www.gotc.com/

Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com


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From mrc at allette.com.au  Sun Jan  9 23:25:11 2000
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
References: <200001091752218.SM01076@Unknown.>
Message-ID: <38791909.35A2A4F9@allette.com.au>


rev-bob@gotc.com wrote:

> That is, by defining "fragment" as belonging to namespace rbns, I am defining the
> attributes of "fragment" and the children of "fragment" as belonging to the same
> namespace by default.  With the "p" element, I declare that it belongs to the htmlns
> namespace, along with (by default) its children and attributes.  With the "b" element, for
> some reason, I need to attach an attribute from the bubbans namespace - so I mark just
> that attribute as belonging to a different space.  When "p" closes, so does the htmlns
> fragment, and the default namespace reverts back to rbns.
>
> Simple enough?

Perhaps too simple. :-)

In the event that you wanted to fragment your data further and the original namespace was
significant in the new context, you would meed to obtain from the higher level element and
make it explicit when you do the fragmentation. I suppose the feeling was that you can create
your data in the way that you described, then apply a simple tool to make the namespaces
explicit, and that this was preferable to requiring the manipulation when the data is being
fragmented.

>  Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/

I'm guessing you've been quiet because Christmas is your busy period...:-)


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sun Jan  9 23:32:37 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Well-formed and valid
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001061356530.20342-100000@rksystems.com> <m34scq7mu1.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3875C3E5.6E4BE647@mecomnet.de> <m3wvpmkmtt.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <3876060A.39BAED2@mecomnet.de> <m3iu15mfya.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain> <00af01bf5997$27a93e80$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net> <m3so08wrx8.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <011701bf5a58$a8901520$19afdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <387918C1.48B6@hiwaay.net>

Frank Boumphrey wrote:
> 
> > Wrong.  A document type needs to conform to the specification that
> > defines it: the specification
> 
> Of course David is quite right! I should have said that a document must
> conform to a schema, and that a schema can be a DTD, or a 'schema' or a
> narative description, etc. ...
> 
> Frank

It conforms to the named record of authority for its contract.

len


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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Mon Jan 10 03:54:32 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XSLT simplified syntax
References: <4.1.20000109155217.0099d620@pop.slip.net>
Message-ID: <006101bf5b1c$5eb14130$0d7b1990@us.oracle.com>

Dan,

Using the simple form gives up some features to
achieve simplicity of representation for people
who want to continue using their existing HTML
editors to edit their "HTML page with data
plugged in" as they learn to exploit the basics
of XSLT.

As you've encountered, the key limitation
is that you cannot use "top-level" XSLT-namespace
elements like:

  xsl:import
  xsl:include
  xsl:strip-space
  xsl:preserve-space
  xsl:output
  xsl:key
  xsl:decimal-format
  xsl:namespace-alias
  xsl:attribute-set
  xsl:param

in a "simple form" stylesheet. The feeling in
the XSL Working Group was, if someone began
to "discover" the need for these facilities,
then they were venturing beyond the "simple-case"
stage, and at that point we could assume they
were mentally "ready" to learn about an
enclosing <xsl:stylesheet> element and what
<xsl:template> is used for.

=== Some Background ===

The "simple form" of an XSLT stylesheet -- known in
the spec as "Literal Result Element as Stylesheet"
http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#result-element-stylesheet --
was conceived as a mechanism to allow someone familiar
with HTML to continue to use their familiar HTML
editing tools to work on stylesheets that only
need a single, root template. The feature was
designed as a smooth-slope introduction capability
to be able to help people who knew HTML begin to
use XSLT without understanding the Spec cover to cover.

One very common case that the "simple form" caters to,
is the one where someone is formatting database
query results into an HTML page. Many Ecommerce apps
are doing this, making use of XML/XSLT, a stylesheet
like:

<html xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
      xsl:version="1.0">
  <body>
    <table>
      <!-- Imagine a "shopping cart" query -->
      <xsl:for-each select="ROWSET/ROW">
        <tr>
          <td><xsl:value-of select="ITEMNAME"/></td>
          <td><xsl:value-of select="PRICE"/></td>
          <td><xsl:value-of select="QUANTITY"/></td>
          <td><xsl:value-of select="PRICE*QUANTITY"/></td>
        </tr>
      </xsl:for-each>
    </table>
  </body>
</html>

This stylesheet can still edited using FrontPage,
DreamWeaver, etc. With the simple form, once you
teach HTML-savvy people that they:

  (1) Add an XSLT namespace declaration and
      xsl:version="1.0" to their <html> element, and
  (2) Combine <xsl:for-each> for looping and
      <xsl:value-of> to "plug in" dynamic data
  (3) Use /a/b/c "directory-like" notation to refer
      to elements in the source document (the way
      I explain the basics of XPath to beginners)

Then they can begin to get productive without
having to understand the XSLT spec cover to cover.
_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/java
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Vint" <dvint@slip.net>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>; <xsl-list@mulberrytech.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 1:13 PM
Subject: Namespaces and XSLT simplified syntax


| Here is yet another question on namespaces that I came up with after
looking at
| the XSLT specification and its simplified syntax. And let me go a little
| further back to HyTime.
|
| I understand (sort of) how an attribute on any'ol element can be pointed
to or
| mapped to an attribute in a different namespace by using a prefix to the
| attribute name as shown here:
|
| <html xsl:version="1.0"
|                 xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform"
|                 xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/strict">
|
| I also thought that architectural forms from HyTime allowed me to say this
| element of whatever name I specify should be treated like this other
element
| over here - I don't remember what the syntax is for it by I have sort of
| thought of namespaces as being related to this functionality.
|
| What I'm looking for is the syntax in XML/namespaces that would allow me
to say
| (in the above example)
| that my element <html> should be treated as <xsl:stylesheet> and thus
allow me
| to use content from the HTML content model for the element <html> and the
| content for the <xsl:stylesheet>. Of course I would use the namespace
prefix
| for those elements as well.
|
| Is there a method for aliasing two elements like this?
|
| There seems to be an indication that an xsl:stylesheet modeled style sheet
| should work the same as a stylesheet somehow being managed in a literal
result
| element (see the requirements for the version and other attributes in this
| case), but then the only example shown in the spec (and the only model
that I
| can think of) seems to fall squarely into the simplified syntax model
which
| then has the restrictions about only using instruction elements - am I
just
| mixing these two ideas up?
|
| Is the simplified syntax just a stricter set of requirements, but the more
| general form of using a literal result element as the document root and
| spreading xsl:xxxx top-level elements is allowed in the more general case?
|
| ..dan
|
| --------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
| Danny Vint                                       http://www.dvint.com
| Author: SGML at Work   http://www.slip.net/~dvint/pubs/sgmlatwork.shtml
|
mailto:dvint@slip.net
|
| Calian                                              Voice:804-975-3482
| mailto:d.vint@calian.com
| Charlottesville, VA Office                http://www.calian.com
|
|
|  XSL-List info and archive:  http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list
|


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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Mon Jan 10 04:51:54 2000
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
In-Reply-To: <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain> from "David Megginson" at Jan 8, 0 01:49:37 pm
Message-ID: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org>

David Megginson scripsit:

> As we move to SAX2, I was wondering what licensing we should use?  Is
> public domain still OK?  It is *very* important to me, at least, that
> SAX's license be as friendly as possible to commercial software
> developers, so the GPL is out (though the LGPL might be OK).  MPL
> looks pretty good as well.  I'm not much of a licensing wonk, though,
> and would be grateful for advice from those who have spent more time
> thinking about this kind of thing.

I recommend one of the following licenses:

	BSD (minimum restrictions, GPL-compatible)
	LGPL (can be incorporated into closed-source programs,
		GPL-style for the code itself, can convert to GPL)
	MPL + GPL dual licensing (can be incorporated into closed-source
		programs, BSD-style for the code itself, GPL dual license
		provides compatibility)
	QPL + GPL (similar to MPL + GPL, but requires distribution of
		patches only, not modified versions)
	David Brownell's license + GPL (not yet officially OSI-compliant,
		similar to QPL + GPL, specifically designed for Java)

The importance of the GPL-compatible requirement is that the majority of
open source software is GPL.  Code whose sole license is incompatible
with the GPL (MPL, QPL, e.g.) cannot be used in such programs.
As the author, though, you can license your code in two different ways
even though they are incompatible.


-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 13:21:48 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
In-Reply-To: John Cowan's message of "Sun, 9 Jan 100 23:58:47 -0500 (EST)"
References: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <m31z7qawou.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

John Cowan <cowan@locke.ccil.org> writes:

> I recommend one of the following licenses:
> 
> 	BSD (minimum restrictions, GPL-compatible)

Perhaps the best compromise.

> 	LGPL (can be incorporated into closed-source programs,
> 		GPL-style for the code itself, can convert to GPL)

Eric Raymond recommended this one in private correspondence, but I
have a few concerns:

1. It seems to me to be a bit of a burden to require apps that use SAX 
   always to bundle the source code for the SAX interfaces or include
   a pointer to them.

2. I have to read more carefully, but the LGPL seems to require that
   you distribute object files so that you can relink against a
   modified version of the library if the library is not
   dynamically-loaded; not an issue for Java, obviously, but it could
   be a killer for C/C++ apps.

3. I'm not sure that there's an advantage in requiring parties to
   open-source modified versions of the interface, since modified
   versions necessarily harm interoperability anyway.

4. It's not particularly important to me, at least, that an app even
   mention that it uses SAX if the use is strictly internal.

I've mentioned these to Eric and will wait to hear back.

> 	MPL + GPL dual licensing (can be incorporated into closed-source
> 		programs, BSD-style for the code itself, GPL dual license
> 		provides compatibility)
> 	QPL + GPL (similar to MPL + GPL, but requires distribution of
> 		patches only, not modified versions)
> 	David Brownell's license + GPL (not yet officially OSI-compliant,
> 		similar to QPL + GPL, specifically designed for Java)
> 
> The importance of the GPL-compatible requirement is that the majority of
> open source software is GPL.  Code whose sole license is incompatible
> with the GPL (MPL, QPL, e.g.) cannot be used in such programs.
> As the author, though, you can license your code in two different ways
> even though they are incompatible.

As I understand it, code with a *less* restrictive license can be
included in a GPL'd program (i.e. SAX1, which is Public Domain) -- is
that not always the case?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From dvint at slip.net  Mon Jan 10 13:29:31 2000
From: dvint at slip.net (Dan Vint)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespaces and XSLT simplified syntax
In-Reply-To: <006101bf5b1c$5eb14130$0d7b1990@us.oracle.com>
References: <4.1.20000109155217.0099d620@pop.slip.net>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000110081920.00939d20@pop.slip.net>

>From the answers I've seen it appears the simplified method has its
restrictions to 
make it simple, so with that can I infer that it is also possible to have a
stylesheet
 setup similar to the simplified model that has the full capability of a
standalone stylesheet. 

The reason why I ask, is when you look at extension elements,
forwards-compatible 
processing, exclude-result-prefixes the spec will list xsl:stylesheet and
literal result 
elements with the appropriate attributes prefixed with xsl: .


This seems to imply a full featured version of a stylesheet being
intermixed in the 
source document, but not embedded where the xsl:stylesheet element is used.


Now I don't know what the value of such a thing would be (one less file to
open 
maybe) I'm just trying to understand all the "rules" in the specification.

..dan

At 07:39 PM 1/9/00 -0800, Steve Muench wrote:
>Dan,
>
>Using the simple form gives up some features to
>achieve simplicity of representation for people
>who want to continue using their existing HTML
>editors to edit their "HTML page with data
>plugged in" as they learn to exploit the basics
>of XSLT.
>
>As you've encountered, the key limitation
>is that you cannot use "top-level" XSLT-namespace
>elements like:
>
>  xsl:import
>  xsl:include
>  xsl:strip-space
>  xsl:preserve-space
>  xsl:output
>  xsl:key
>  xsl:decimal-format
>  xsl:namespace-alias
>  xsl:attribute-set
>  xsl:param
>
>in a "simple form" stylesheet. The feeling in
>the XSL Working Group was, if someone began
>to "discover" the need for these facilities,
>then they were venturing beyond the "simple-case"
>stage, and at that point we could assume they
>were mentally "ready" to learn about an
>enclosing <xsl:stylesheet> element and what
><xsl:template> is used for.
>
>=== Some Background ===
>
>The "simple form" of an XSLT stylesheet -- known in
>the spec as "Literal Result Element as Stylesheet"
>http://www.w3.org/TR/xslt#result-element-stylesheet --
>was conceived as a mechanism to allow someone familiar
>with HTML to continue to use their familiar HTML
>editing tools to work on stylesheets that only
>need a single, root template. The feature was
>designed as a smooth-slope introduction capability
>to be able to help people who knew HTML begin to
>use XSLT without understanding the Spec cover to cover.
>
>One very common case that the "simple form" caters to,
>is the one where someone is formatting database
>query results into an HTML page. Many Ecommerce apps
>are doing this, making use of XML/XSLT, a stylesheet
>like:
>
> > xsl:version="1.0"> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > >
>
>This stylesheet can still edited using FrontPage,
>DreamWeaver, etc. With the simple form, once you
>teach HTML-savvy people that they:
>
>  (1) Add an XSLT namespace declaration and
>      xsl:version="1.0" to their element, and > (2) Combine for looping
and > to "plug in" dynamic data > (3) Use /a/b/c "directory-like" notation
to refer > to elements in the source document (the way > I explain the
basics of XPath to beginners) > >Then they can begin to get productive
without >having to understand the XSLT spec cover to cover.
>_________________________________________________________ >Steve Muench,
Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist >Business Components for Java
Development Team >http://technet.oracle.com/tech/java
>http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml >----- Original Message ----- >From:
"Dan Vint" >To: ; >Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2000 1:13 PM >Subject:
Namespaces and XSLT simplified syntax > > >| Here is yet another question
on namespaces that I came up with after >looking at >| the XSLT
specification and its simplified syntax. And let me go a little >| further
back to HyTime. >| >| I understand (sort of) how an attribute on any'ol
element can be pointed >to or >| mapped to an attribute in a different
namespace by using a prefix to the >| attribute name as shown here: >| >|
>| xmlns:xsl="http://www.w3.org/1999/XSL/Transform" >|
xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/strict"> >| >| I also thought that
architectural forms from HyTime allowed me to say this >| element of
whatever name I specify should be treated like this other >element >| over
here - I don't remember what the syntax is for it by I have sort of >|
thought of namespaces as being related to this functionality. >| >| What
I'm looking for is the syntax in XML/namespaces that would allow me >to say
>| (in the above example) >| that my element should be treated as and thus
>allow me >| to use content from the HTML content model for the element and
the >| content for the . Of course I would use the namespace >prefix >| for
those elements as well. >| >| Is there a method for aliasing two elements
like this? >| >| There seems to be an indication that an xsl:stylesheet
modeled style sheet >| should work the same as a stylesheet somehow being
managed in a literal >result >| element (see the requirements for the
version and other attributes in this >| case), but then the only example
shown in the spec (and the only model >that I >| can think of) seems to
fall squarely into the simplified syntax model >which >| then has the
restrictions about only using instruction elements - am I >just >| mixing
these two ideas up? >| >| Is the simplified syntax just a stricter set of
requirements, but the more >| general form of using a literal result
element as the document root and >| spreading xsl:xxxx top-level elements
is allowed in the more general case? >| >| ..dan >| >|
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>- >| Danny Vint http://www.dvint.com >| Author: SGML at Work
http://www.slip.net/~dvint/pubs/sgmlatwork.shtml >| >mailto:dvint@slip.net
>| >| Calian Voice:804-975-3482 >| mailto:d.vint@calian.com >|
Charlottesville, VA Office http://www.calian.com >| >| >| XSL-List info and
archive: http://www.mulberrytech.com/xsl/xsl-list >| > > >xml-dev: A list
for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk >Archived as:
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on CD-ROM/ISBN
>981-02-3594-1 >To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following
message; >unsubscribe xml-dev >To subscribe to the digests,
mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message; >subscribe xml-dev-digest
>List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk) > 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Danny Vint                                       http://www.dvint.com
Author: SGML at Work   	http://www.slip.net/~dvint/pubs/sgmlatwork.shtml 
                                                       mailto:dvint@slip.net
    
Calian                                              Voice:804-975-3482
mailto:d.vint@calian.com
Charlottesville, VA Office                http://www.calian.com              


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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 15:10:20 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
Message-ID: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>

I spent some time over the holidays working on a new SAX2 package, and
it didn't take me long to decide that redoing everything in a new
org.xml.sax2 package and creating all of the adapters was going to be
too much of a hill for me to climb right now.

We really, really, *really* need SAX2 -- a lot of the debate about
Namespaces, for example, wouldn't exist if there were a simple API for
getting at Namespace information.  Here's a new suggestion that both
preserves a lot of SAX1 and provides a clean path for future SAX
development without some of the SAX1 baggage:

1. Deprecate Parser, DocumentHandler, and AttributeList.

2. Create a new class, ContentHandler, that duplicates the current
   DocumentHandler but adds proper support for Namespace processing
   and for reporting skipped entities (an XML 1.0 requirement that
   SAX1 never met, as John Cowan never got tired of reminding me).

3. Create a new interface, Attributes, that replaces AttributeList.

4. Create a new class, XMLReader, that (for now) extends Parser and
   adds support for the configurability and for setting the
   ContentHandler -- add a warning that this class will likely not
   extend Parser in future versions of SAX.

5. Add the SAXNotRecognizedException and SAXNotSupportedException
   classes.

6. Add the LexicalHandler and DeclarationHandler classes as previously
   planned, but put them in a different extensions package and don't
   provide explicit setters for XMLReader (since we'll be adding more
   extension handlers later, and all extension handlers should be set
   with setProperty).

7. Write the (now fairly simple) adapters for SAX1 parsers.

8. Rewrite some of the existing concrete classes to improve efficiency 
   or fix bugs.

9. Rewrite HandlerBase.


Here are the three new core interfaces:


====================8<====================8<====================

  public interface XMLReader extends Parser
  {
    //
    // Parser.setLocale and Parser.setDocumentHandler are
    // deprecated.
    //

    //
    // Configure the reader.
    //
    public void setFeature (String name, boolean state)
      throws SAXNotRecognizedException, SAXNotSupportedException;
    public boolean getFeature (String name)
      throws SAXNotRecognizedException;
    public void setProperty (String name, Object value)
      throws SAXNotRecognizedException, SAXNotSupportedException;
    public Object getProperty (String name)   
      throws SAXNotRecognizedException;

    //
    // Register handlers.
    //
    public void setEntityResolver (EntityResolver resolver);
    public EntityResolver getEntityResolver ();
    public void setDTDHandler (DTDHandler handler);
    public DTDHandler getDTDHandler ();
    public void setContentHandler (ContentHandler handler);
    public ContentHandler getContentHandler ();
    public void setErrorHandler (ErrorHandler handler);
    public ErrorHandler getErrorHandler ();

    //
    // Run a parse.
    //
    public void parse (String systemId)
      throws IOException, SAXException;
    public void parse (InputSource input)
      throws IOException, SAXException;
  }

====================8<====================8<====================

  public interface Attributes
  {
    public int getLength ();

    public String getURI (int pos);
    public String getLocalName (int pos);
    public String getRawName (int pos);
    public String getType (int pos);
    public String getValue (int pos);

    public String getType (String uri, String localName);
    public String getType (String rawName);
    public String getValue (String uri, String localName);
    public String getValue (String rawName);
  }

====================8<====================8<====================

  public interface ContentHandler
  {
    public void setDocumentLocator (Locator locator);

    public void startDocument ()
      throws SAXException;
    public void endDocument ()
      throws SAXException;

    public void startPrefixMapping (String prefix, String uri)
      throws SAXException;
    public void endPrefixMapping (String prefix)
      throws SAXException;

    public void startElement (String uri, String localName,
                              String rawName, Attributes atts)
      throws SAXException;
    public void endElement (String uri, String localName, String rawName)
      throws SAXException;

    public void characters (char ch[], int start, int length)
      throws SAXException;

    public void ignorableWhitespace (char ch[], int start, int length)
      throws SAXException;

    public void processingInstruction (String target, String data)
      throws SAXException;

    public void skippedEntity (String name)
      throws SAXException;
  
  }

====================8<====================8<====================

There are three significant advantages to doing things this way:

1. Namespace support is a core and natural part of the interface,
   but non-Namespace processing is still possible with no penalty.

2. There's a lot of compatibility with SAX 1.0, but implementations in 
   other languages won't have to carry around the SAX 1.0 baggage
   (they won't have Parser or DocumentHandler at all).

3. Writing an implementation and SAX1 adapters will be easy enough
   that I might actually get around to doing it.

Comments?  If there is anything approaching agreement (or even
grudging acceptance), I can try to get out a beta this week with SAX1
adapters.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 10 15:53:40 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2000 10:10:19 -0500 (EST)"
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> writes:

>   public interface Attributes
>   {
>     public int getLength ();
> 
>     public String getURI (int pos);
>     public String getLocalName (int pos);
>     public String getRawName (int pos);
>     public String getType (int pos);
>     public String getValue (int pos);
> 
>     public String getType (String uri, String localName);
>     public String getType (String rawName);
>     public String getValue (String uri, String localName);
>     public String getValue (String rawName);
>   }

Just so there is no possible confusion arising from the overhang of
the namespaces&attributes threads of the last few weeks, please
confirm that

  a) getURI should return the empty string iff getRawName returns a string
     without a colon;

  b) The 'uri' argument to getType and getValue must be empty for them 
     to succeed if getRawName returns a string without a colon;

  c) An exception should be thrown if an element or attribute name is
     encountered with a prefix for which no declaration is in scope.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan 10 15:59:40 2000
From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org> <m31z7qawou.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <001001bf5b83$43bfcd30$b6010180@p197>

> As I understand it, code with a *less* restrictive license can be
> included in a GPL'd program (i.e. SAX1, which is Public Domain) -- is
> that not always the case?

What are the problems with making SAX2 public domain ?

Thanks,

Richard.

PS. I've never understood all these various licenses so please ignore me if
this is a silly comment.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David
>
> --
> David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
>            http://www.megginson.com/
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> To unsubscribe, mailto:majordomo@ic.ac.uk the following message;
> unsubscribe xml-dev
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> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Mon Jan 10 16:20:16 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

> Comments?  If there is anything approaching agreement (or even
> grudging acceptance), I can try to get out a beta this week with SAX1
> adapters.


I assume that xmlns and xmlns:* attributes do not occur in the
Attributes object, right?

Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for interned
Strings, 
the equals problem does not exist)?

Can I assume that namespace URIs are always interned?

Thanks for all the work.

Best regards,

Stefan

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 16:18:47 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
	<f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <14458.1651.537357.795468@localhost.localdomain>

Henry S. Thompson writes:

 > Just so there is no possible confusion arising from the overhang of
 > the namespaces&attributes threads of the last few weeks, please
 > confirm that
 > 
 >   a) getURI should return the empty string iff getRawName returns a string
 >      without a colon;

No, because getRawName() may return null if the SAX2 driver does not
support reporting raw names (i.e. if it is iterating over a database
where there are no raw XML 1.0 element names to deal with).  

There is also the possibility that there will be a SAX feature to ask
the XMLReader to place all unprefixed attribute names into the parent
element's Namespace at user option (the default will be to leave them
distinct).

 >   b) The 'uri' argument to getType and getValue must be empty for them 
 >      to succeed if getRawName returns a string without a colon;

By default, yes, though see above for the possibility of a feature
that could invoke a different behaviour.

 >   c) An exception should be thrown if an element or attribute name is
 >      encountered with a prefix for which no declaration is in scope.

Well, an error callback, at least.  SAX uses callbacks and lets the
app decide whether to throw an exception or continue processing (on
the understanding that the information is no longer usable except for
error reporting).


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ray at xmission.com  Mon Jan 10 16:26:23 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
In-Reply-To: <000001bf5a19$8ad106a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10001100906270.19753-100000@xmission.xmission.com>

On Sat, 8 Jan 2000, Don Park wrote:

>   SML is a strict subset of XML    
>   SML supports:
>     UTF-8 and UTF-16 only.    
>     empty elements.    
>     numeric character entities.
>     predefined character entities.
>   SML does not support:
>     DTD
>     CDATA sections
>     XML and text declarations
>     Processing Instructions
>     Comments
>     Entities (except character entities)
>   SML attribute names must not conflict with
>     child element names.

It would be interesting to know whether items such as entities,
Doctype declarations, CDATA sections, non-UTF encoding, comments, 
PIs, Text declarations, etc. have been banished from the syntax 
or only from what is exposed to the user from the parser, as these 
concepts are, IMO, fairly easily converted / filtered by a simple 
parser.

If they have been banished from the syntax, existing ecommerce
applications that find these constructs quite beneficial and
simplifying to the applications exchanging data are likely to
reject the approach.  With an austere all or nothing approach,
I know what my choice will be.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com


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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 16:35:41 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
        <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>

Stefan Haustein writes:

 > I assume that xmlns and xmlns:* attributes do not occur in the
 > Attributes object, right?

By default, no, unless explicitly requested by the client app.  How
should we handle this?  Here are my current thoughts:

Feature: http://xml.org/sax/features/namespaces (default = true)

                        TRUE        false
------------------------------------------------------------------------
uri                     required    optional
localName               required    optional
start/endPrefixMapping  required    optional
NS error reporting      required    forbidden
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Feature: http://xml.org/sax/features/rawnames (default = false)

               true        FALSE
------------------------------------------------------------------------
rawName        required    optional
xmlns* atts    required    forbidden
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every SAX2 driver *must* support namespaces==true and rawnames==false,
and must use those as the default unless the client explicitly
requests otherwise.

The combination namespaces==false && rawnames==false is not allowed
(setting either to false automatically toggles the other to true).

 > Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for
 > interned Strings, the equals problem does not exist)?

Empty string sounds like a reasonable suggestion when Namespace
processing is being performed; null when it is not (so that a bugs in
code will show up sooner).

 > Can I assume that namespace URIs are always interned?

That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
java.lang.String.intern)?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 10 16:47:20 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "Mon, 10 Jan 2000 11:18:59 -0500 (EST)"
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain> <f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <14458.1651.537357.795468@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <f5baemdho1b.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> writes:

> Henry S. Thompson writes:
> 
>  > Just so there is no possible confusion arising from the overhang of
>  > the namespaces&attributes threads of the last few weeks, please
>  > confirm that
>  > 
>  >   a) getURI should return the empty string iff getRawName returns a string
>  >      without a colon;
> 
> No, because getRawName() may return null if the SAX2 driver does not
> support reporting raw names (i.e. if it is iterating over a database
> where there are no raw XML 1.0 element names to deal with).  
> 
> There is also the possibility that there will be a SAX feature to ask
> the XMLReader to place all unprefixed attribute names into the parent
> element's Namespace at user option (the default will be to leave them
> distinct).

Thanks for the speedy and careful reply.

For the record, I oppose provision of the possible feature described
above.  I think it's clear that for what is designed as a low-level
XML interface, this goes against the intentions of the Namespace REC,
and strictly contradicts its normative statements wrt the default
namespace (see [1], "the default namespace does not apply to attribute
names"), and would lead to two attributes with the same
fully-qualified name in the case of the second <good...> below

   <!-- http://www.w3.org is bound to n1 and is the default -->
  <x xmlns:n1="http://www.w3.org" 
     xmlns="http://www.w3.org" >
    <good a="1"     b="2" />
    <good a="1"     n1:a="2" />
  </x>

(taken from the same section of the Namespace REC), which in turn
would render e.g. GetValue("http://www.w3.org","a") incoherent wrt
that second <good...> if the feature you suggest is turned on.

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-xml-names/#uniqAttrs
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Mon Jan 10 16:49:53 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
In-Reply-To: <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain>
References: <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <m3k8lhdg7f.fsf@ifi.uio.no>


* David Megginson
|
| As we move to SAX2, I was wondering what licensing we should use?
| Is public domain still OK?

Personally, I think so. Does anyone have any good arguments for
something more restrictive?

If we do use a license, I would recommend a BSD-like one. It has the
benefits of being unrestrictive, simple (IMHO very important) and
GPL-compatible. 

On the other hand, I can't really see that it gives us anything
compared to simply making SAX2 PD, which is even less restrictive,
even simpler and still GPL-compatible as far as I can see.

--Lars M.


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From rev-bob at gotc.com  Mon Jan 10 16:57:53 2000
From: rev-bob at gotc.com (rev-bob@gotc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:07 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
Message-ID: <200001101157201.SM01076@Unknown.>

> > That is, by defining "fragment" as belonging to namespace rbns, I am defining the
> > attributes of "fragment" and the children of "fragment" as belonging to the same
> > namespace by default.  With the "p" element, I declare that it belongs to the htmlns
> > namespace, along with (by default) its children and attributes.  With the "b"
> > element, for some reason, I need to attach an attribute from the bubbans namespace
> > - so I mark just that attribute as belonging to a different space.  When "p" closes, so
> > does the htmlns fragment, and the default namespace reverts back to rbns.
> >
> > Simple enough?
> 
> Perhaps too simple. :-)

Then perhaps I've hit the mark squarely.
 
> In the event that you wanted to fragment your data further and the original namespace
> was significant in the new context, you would meed to obtain from the higher level
> element and make it explicit when you do the fragmentation.

Why?  It's a really simple concept - whenever a child (element or attribute) requires a 
namespace which is not the same as its parent's namespace, the child's namespace must 
be explicitly noted.  That's the extent of the relationship - grandparents and such are 
important only so far as defining the parent.  In other words, consider another XHTML 
example:

<htmlns:table align="center">
  <tr><td><table>
    <tr><td><rbns:name>
    <first>Robert</first><htmlns:b>L.</b><last>Hood</last>
    </name></td></tr>
  </table></td></tr>
</table>

That name element is buried deep in layers of htmlns-code, but the only concern is that 
the name tag does not reside in the same namespace as the td element which contains it.  
Similarly, the bold-faced middle initial doesn't look at the preceding code to say "I'm in 
the same namespace as the outermost table element," but instead just says "I'm in the 
html namespace."  Each element can be understood with minimal code - just know the 
parent's namespace, and know how to pass it along as the default for the children.  
Containers and recursion work very well together, don't you think?  Once the b element 
completes (pops), its temporary island of XHTML goes away, and the previous default 
(rbns) resumes control.  Once that name element pops, the previous default (which 
happens to be XHTML again) reasserts itself.

Maybe I *did* make this too simple; you seem too eager to make it far more complex 
than it really is.

> I suppose the feeling was that you can create your data in the way that you described,
> then apply a simple tool to make the namespaces explicit,

No, no, no!  No more tools required!  At all!  Say it with me: "A child element inherits 
the namespace of its parent, unless otherwise specified.  An attribute inherits the 
namespace of the element to which it belongs, unless otherwise specified."  Boom.  
Done.  Clear?

> and that this was preferable to requiring the manipulation when the data is being
> fragmented.

No, the feeling was that defining a default namespace via inheritance is preferable to the 
endless debate about how:

<htmlns:a href="http://www.gotc.com">

compares to:

<htmlns:a htmlns:href="http://www.gotc.com">

With the inheritance model I've laid out, these are explicitly identical - because in the 
first example, href *inherits* its namespace from a, which is defined as being in the 
htmlns namespace.  A namespace-compliant parser would hit the htmlns:a element, note 
it as an a element which belongs in the htmlns space, and treat all the children and 
attributes of that element as defaulting to the htmlns space.  The href attribute is next in 
line - no explicit namespace, so it belongs to the default - htmlns.  When the a element 
closes, so does its domain of inheritance; the parent has no more children, so it cannot 
pass on its namespace to anything else.

The only thing I'm not really sure about with this model is whether the namespace 
should be explicitly stated on the closing tags - ie., whether my nested-table example 
should really read like so:

<htmlns:table align="center">
  <tr><td><table>
    <tr><td><rbns:name>
    <first>Robert</first><htmlns:b>L.</htmlns:b><last>Hood</last>
    </rbns:name></td></tr>
  </table></td></tr>
</htmlns:table>

I can see arguments both ways - on the one hand, a non-namespace parser will treat 
htmlns:table and table as different elements, and thus should report an improper nesting 
error (right?), so adding the namespace to the closing tag avoids that and also makes the 
inheritance domain a bit clearer to someone trying to read the code.  I could live with 
that, I guess....

> >  Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
> 
> I'm guessing you've been quiet because Christmas is your busy period...:-)

No, just haven't had a lot to say.  That, and I'm in the middle of moving *and* 
preparing to attend a science fiction convention this weekend....  (I get to interview 
Bruce Sterling!  Woo-hoo!)



 Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
  Get Off The Cross!  | http://www.gotc.com/

Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com


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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Mon Jan 10 17:04:23 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <14458.1651.537357.795468@localhost.localdomain>
References: <f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
 <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
 <f5bn1qdhqin.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000110170345.00cd6e50@mailhost>

At 11:18 10/01/00 -0500, David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:

>There is also the possibility that there will be a SAX feature to ask
>the XMLReader to place all unprefixed attribute names into the parent
>element's Namespace at user option (the default will be to leave them
>distinct).

I suggest that, if there is a need to support both modes, then it may well
be namespace dependent within one overall XML file.  For example:

   <a:a aa="b"/>
   <b:a aa="b"/>

might actually mean

   <a:a {nonamespace}:aa="b"/>
   <b:a b:aa="b"/>

Perhaps the way to integrate this is to say that the parsing mode may be
set within the startPrefixMapping() callback, and then only applies to
elements from the namespace being started.
-- 
Cheers,
John

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From donpark at docuverse.com  Mon Jan 10 17:12:15 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SML Status Report
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.10.10001100906270.19753-100000@xmission.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <000001bf5b8e$1b506340$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

Ray Whitmer wrote:
>It would be interesting to know whether items such as entities,
>Doctype declarations, CDATA sections, non-UTF encoding, comments, 
>PIs, Text declarations, etc. have been banished from the syntax 
>or only from what is exposed to the user from the parser, as these 
>concepts are, IMO, fairly easily converted / filtered by a simple 
>parser.
>
>If they have been banished from the syntax, existing ecommerce
>applications that find these constructs quite beneficial and
>simplifying to the applications exchanging data are likely to
>reject the approach.  With an austere all or nothing approach,
>I know what my choice will be.

The features you mentioned will not be support by SML syntax.
This does not mean SML will be less expressive than XML unless
you consider XML to be less expressive than SGML because it
lacks certain syntatic features.

We are planning to add a layer on top of SML that bridges the
differences in SML and XML information models.  In that layer,
you will find elements that correspond to comments, PI, an
entities.

I would like to avoid another SML/XML flareup if possible.
Please join the SML-DEV mailing list for further discussion.

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Mon Jan 10 17:26:35 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
	        <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387A1629.27E57BF3@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

>  > Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for
>  > interned Strings, the equals problem does not exist)?
> 
> Empty string sounds like a reasonable suggestion when Namespace
> processing is being performed; null when it is not (so that a bugs in
> code will show up sooner).

To me, attrs.getValue ("", "href") looks strange, I would prefer 
attrs.getValue (null, "href"). But I could also live with the empty
string.  
I would not like if it is switchable, left to the parser, or both
allowed.

>  > Can I assume that namespace URIs are always interned?
> 
> That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
> Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
> java.lang.String.intern)?

I would suggest that only namespace interning is required: 
namespace URIs will be a small set of long strings, and
you do not meet them often while parsing. 
I think interning all names would slow down parsing too much (?). 

Best regards

Stefan

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Mon Jan 10 17:26:10 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Simplification of equivClass functionality
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C747D@THOR>

There are currently two distinct mechanisms to achieve "substitutability" of
elements in XML Schema that achieve the same goal.  For example, the
interchangability of "facets" in schema datatypes could be accomplished by
either:

1. Use of a choice group

<group name="facet" order="choice">
	<element ref="precision"/>
	<element ref="scale"/>
	...
</group>

  <type name="datatype" source="annotated" derivedBy="extension"
        abstract="true">
    <group ref="facet" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
    <attribute name="name" type="NCName" minOccurs="0">
...
</type>

2. Use of an abstract element and equivClass attributes 

 <element name="facet" type="facet" abstract="true"/>

  <element name="precision" type="numFacet" equivClass="facet"/>
  <element name="scale" type="numFacet" equivClass="facet"/>

 <type name="datatype" source="annotated" derivedBy="extension"
        abstract="true">
    <element ref="facet" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
    <attribute name="name" type="NCName" minOccurs="0">
   ...
</type>

The equivClass formulation provides an alternative way to basically declare
group membership in the definition of the member not in the definition of
the group.  However, it does so by adding a decent amount of conceptual
complexity that could be eliminating by unifying "equivClass" behavior with
"choice group" behavior.

What I would propose is to rename the "equivClass" attribute to be "groups"
that would be a blank separated list of groups into which the element should
be inserted.  Since equivClass is roughly approximate to the interface
concept in Java (structurally distinct items performing the same conceptual
service), it would be useful to say that a element participates in more than
one "equivClass/group" in the same way one class can have many interfaces.
When resolving a schema, all elements with "groups" would have their element
added to the corresponding group.  Since it may not be possible to define an
appropriate order of insertion, it would be good to require that the target
group be either "choice" or "all". 

This would also eliminate the need to the "abstract" and "exact" attributes
on elements, since an "abstract" element serves no purpose except as the
target of an equivClass and "exact" would not be needed since you could use
an explicit element ref to get only the "facet" element (if there had been
one) and reference the group to get all the equivClass members.

With these changes, the second form would look like:

 <!--   some elements could have be explicitly added into the group   -->
 <group name="facet" order="choice"/>

  <element name="precision" type="numFacet" groups="facet"/>
  <element name="scale" type="numFacet" groups="facet"/>

 <type name="datatype" source="annotated" derivedBy="extension"
        abstract="true">
    <group ref="facet" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
    <attribute name="name" type="NCName" minOccurs="0">
   ...
</type>

I believe this accomplishes the same objectives as the equivClass without
introducing as many complicated topics as the current "equivClass" approach.

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 10 17:49:05 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000110094934.01449eb0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 06:26 PM 1/10/00 +0100, Stefan Haustein wrote:
>I think interning all names would slow down parsing too much (?). 

In my experience, it will speed it up! -Tim

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Mon Jan 10 17:50:16 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>         <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <m3bt6tddel.fsf@ifi.uio.no>


* Stefan Haustein
|
| Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for interned
| Strings, the equals problem does not exist)?

* David Megginson
| 
| Empty string sounds like a reasonable suggestion when Namespace
| processing is being performed; null when it is not (so that a bugs
| in code will show up sooner).

There is a problem with this: SAX filters should be able to compare
names without knowing whether namespace processing is on or not.
Allowing parts of names to be null makes this much more complicated,
since this is a comparison of two three-string tuples. So from a
filter point of view it would be much better if no part of a name
could ever be null. (I'm a bit unsure what to do with the raw name
when there is no original raw name.)

| That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
| Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
| java.lang.String.intern)?

This sounds like it could cause a huge performance gap between
implementations. I think the MSXML driver and the SAX1 adapter will
have to intern every name-part string that is passed to them, which I
assume would be very costly. (The alternative would be breaking
applications, unless there is a cheaper way.)

Also, many parsers already do their own interning and support for
SAX2, and these would then require either the solution above or a
(non-costly) change to the parser itself. This definitely sounds like
something that is easily forgotten, thus causing incompatibilities.


Perhaps we should instead add an optional read-only property that
returns an implementation of a StringInterner interface, which could
look something like:

  public interface StringInterner {

    public String intern(String aString);
    public void clear(); // empties all internal tables, but is not
                         // guaranteed to have an effect

  }

Support for this property would then imply that all reported name-part
strings are interned. We could also add a default implementation that
just does aString.intern(), to make life easier for the implementors.

--Lars M.


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From Corbett.Klempay at trilogy.com  Mon Jan 10 18:03:19 2000
From: Corbett.Klempay at trilogy.com (Corbett.Klempay@trilogy.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: document generation
Message-ID: <OF5589731B.A4DC2368-ON86256862.0062A618@trilogy.com>

I'm relatively new, so this may be a kind of newbie question:

I need to pull loads of info from a DB and generate some XML conforming to
a DTD I made up recently.  My question is: is the recommended way of
generating XML in this scenario to just actually write the XML out to a
PrintWriter, printing a line at time (sort of a 'manual' process)...or is
there some certain recommended way of building the document in memory and
then writing it out at once? (or, more likely, buildling a few nodes at a
time and writing them; the potential memory requirements of a document of
this size would be prohibitive)

---
Corbett J. Klempay
Trilogy Software, Inc.
512.532.5176 (W) | 512.750.1372 (C)
corbett.klempay@trilogy.com



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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Mon Jan 10 18:13:12 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <3.0.32.20000110094934.01449eb0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387A20F7.5F9E1BFB@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

> >I think interning all names would slow down parsing too much (?).
> 
> In my experience, it will speed it up! -Tim

If you program the parser good enough to avoid reallocations
of the string object completely, maybe. But you would probably need to
build your own hashtable where you can feed in parts of your parsing
buffer.

Also, wrappers will definitely slow down. 

Thus, I would prefer required interning for namespaces only. 
Namespaces are usually long enough to make interning pay off, and
the null comparison that does not exist for other names
would be solved. 

Best regards,

Stefan

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From Vlashua at rsgsystems.com  Mon Jan 10 18:24:38 2000
From: Vlashua at rsgsystems.com (Vane Lashua)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: hierarchical database for repository
Message-ID: <E9EB65078F9BD31193FE009027B100E10CBFC0@RSGMAIL01>

How about the Unix file system?
Vane

-----Original Message-----
From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com]
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2000 5:08 PM
To: XML-Dev Mailing list
Subject: Re: hierarchical database for repository


First, the suggestions I got privately:

* pse-pro - An object database in Java
* Meta-kit (http://www.equi4.com/metakit/), a C++ database engine

Now, what I'm really looking for and more of what I hope to do with it:

I'm trying to build an extremely lightweight repository for XML.
Basically, it'll take SAX events going in, store the data hierarchically
(and in the right place in the DB), and then be able to spit SAX events
back out from any given location.  Management and searching are useful
features in the long run, but for right now I'm just looking for something
that will let me store lots of nodes persistently without a lot of
overhead, and without restrictions on length.

Everything will be text - BLOB storage is unimportant.  I don't want to be
tied to a particular object representation of the information at this
point, making the DOM a lot more than I need at this point.  While an
object database might be okay, it's not the 'object' part I care about -
it's simply being able to store hierarchically linked nodes persistently.
(Being able to change the links between them occasionally is also
important.)  Multi-user access is not presently important.  The simpler the
API, the better, at this point.

I'm sort of going back to the late 60's and early 70's, before those
relational people gave us all kinds of strange and highly useful ideas
about structuring data.

Fortunately, this isn't a commercial project, so you're all quite welcome
to take any of these ideas and run with them.  If I don't find anything
that quite meets this level of simplicity, I suppose I'll roll my own.

Thanks!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From paul at prescod.net  Mon Jan 10 18:26:20 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org> <m31z7qawou.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387A23FC.EE52EA20@prescod.net>

Let me pretend to be a lawyer, and then a consultant.

Pretend Lawyer:

It is highly debatable that APIs and other software to software
interfaces are protectable. The case law is muddled but the "common
practice" is quite clear. Would Microsoft allow Wine or Samba if they
thought that the Windows API or SMB protocols were protectable? How
about the re-implementations (against Sun's wishes) of the Java API?
Note that Sun protects the Java API through *trademark law* not
copyright. When Microsoft hacked into AOL's messaging protocols, AOL
fought back by changing the protocol, not by suing.

http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-1436501.html

When people DO try to go to court about a protocol, it is typically
because they have embedded some trademark in it (e.g. Sega Vs.
Accolade).

I observe that it is the implicit concensus in the computer community
that APIs, protocols, and so forth are either not protectable or that
the case is so likely to go against you that it isn't worth trying.

Consultant:

What problem are you trying to solve?

Whatever it is, licenses designed for code are not likely to reach your
goals with respect to an API. If you want to allow anyone to use SAX
anywhere in any way for any project then what's wrong with putting it in
public domain? Other licenses exist to stop some particular action (e.g.
commercial use). What are you trying to prevent?

I use implementations of SAX (parser, app and infrastructure library)
that do not in any way use code from your site. I don't see how your
license can affect that use at all.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
When I'm gone, boxing will be nothing again.  The fans with the cigars
and the hats turned down'll be there, but no more housewives and
little men in the street and foreign presidents.  .... I was the
onliest boxer in history people asked questions like a senator.  
            -- Muhammad Ali

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Mon Jan 10 18:27:14 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: document generation
References: <OF5589731B.A4DC2368-ON86256862.0062A618@trilogy.com>
Message-ID: <387A245E.F3D6F5EA@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

> I need to pull loads of info from a DB and generate some XML conforming to
> a DTD I made up recently.  My question is: is the recommended way of
> generating XML in this scenario to just actually write the XML out to a
> PrintWriter, printing a line at time (sort of a 'manual' process)...or is
> there some certain recommended way of building the document in memory and
> then writing it out at once? (or, more likely, buildling a few nodes at a
> time and writing them; the potential memory requirements of a document of
> this size would be prohibitive)

If the DOM model is not needed for any other reason, I would not build
it.
Just don't forget that you need to escape some characters before writing 
them out as text content.

<  ->  &lt;
&  ->  &amp;

etc.

Best regards

Stefan

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 10 18:29:37 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <387A250A.D25A7490@pacbell.net>

John Cowan wrote:
> 
> I recommend one of the following licenses:
> 
>         ...
>         David Brownell's license + GPL (not yet officially OSI-compliant,
>                 similar to QPL + GPL, specifically designed for Java)

Correction -- it _is_ OSI compliant, to the extent that phrase
means anything.

QPL (on which it's based) is compliant, and the main change just
prevents folk from changing my interfaces without my say-so.  If
you want to make such changes, you create another package name.
(That's the same answer the latest DOM specs use.)

- Dave

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 18:59:32 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <387A1629.27E57BF3@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
	<387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
	<14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>
	<387A1629.27E57BF3@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
Message-ID: <14458.11300.932718.977618@localhost.localdomain>

Stefan Haustein writes:
 > >  > Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for
 > >  > interned Strings, the equals problem does not exist)?
 > > 
 > > Empty string sounds like a reasonable suggestion when Namespace
 > > processing is being performed; null when it is not (so that a bugs in
 > > code will show up sooner).
 > 
 > To me, attrs.getValue ("", "href") looks strange, I would prefer 
 > attrs.getValue (null, "href"). But I could also live with the empty
 > string.  
 > I would not like if it is switchable, left to the parser, or both
 > allowed.
 > 
 > >  > Can I assume that namespace URIs are always interned?
 > > 
 > > That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
 > > Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
 > > java.lang.String.intern)?
 > 
 > I would suggest that only namespace interning is required: 
 > namespace URIs will be a small set of long strings, and
 > you do not meet them often while parsing. 
 > I think interning all names would slow down parsing too much (?). 

Or at least it would require some clever implementations.  Nearly all
parsers intern names anyway, but most use their own interning schemes
to speed things up.  To be compatible, they would need to call
java.lang.String.intern only once for each unique name (when it is
first inserted into the parser's private intern table).

I don't know if there's a lot of benefit in requiring this, though --
it's just a trial balloon right now.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 10 19:08:12 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
In-Reply-To: <387A23FC.EE52EA20@prescod.net>
References: <200001100458.XAA07173@locke.ccil.org>
	<m31z7qawou.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<387A23FC.EE52EA20@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <14458.11796.335473.345473@localhost.localdomain>

Paul Prescod writes:

 > Let me pretend to be a lawyer, and then a consultant.

 > It is highly debatable that APIs and other software to software
 > interfaces are protectable. 

Yes, I should be clearer here -- I wouldn't try to copyright more than
the specific *expression* of the API in Java, C++, etc., but it would
still be possible for someone to create an entirely compatible one
from scratch.  Life on Linux would be very dull if we didn't have
work-alikes for the Unix C library (glibc), OpenGL (Mesa), and other
similarly important stuff, not to mention the Unix system call
themselves.

 > The case law is muddled but the "common practice" is quite
 > clear. Would Microsoft allow Wine or Samba if they thought that the
 > Windows API or SMB protocols were protectable? 

They're thinking about it.  Have you read the Microsoft Halloween
documents?

  http://www.opensource.org/halloween/

 > How about the re-implementations (against Sun's wishes) of the Java
 > API?  

To be fair, I think that Sun's license does explicitly allow that,
even if the execs don't like it.

 > Note that Sun protects the Java API through *trademark law* not
 > copyright. 

The W3C protects XML in a similar fashion.

[snip]

 > Consultant:
 > 
 > What problem are you trying to solve?

Wow!  You sound just like a real consultant, except that the first
question should have been "How much money do you have to spend?"

 > Whatever it is, licenses designed for code are not likely to reach
 > your goals with respect to an API. If you want to allow anyone to
 > use SAX anywhere in any way for any project then what's wrong with
 > putting it in public domain? Other licenses exist to stop some
 > particular action (e.g.  commercial use). What are you trying to
 > prevent?
 > 
 > I use implementations of SAX (parser, app and infrastructure library)
 > that do not in any way use code from your site. I don't see how your
 > license can affect that use at all.

I'll take this as a (very well-reasoned) vote for leaving SAX2 in the
Public Domain, just like SAX1.  With SAX1, I made that decision rather
autocratically (I just did it), but I'd like to hear a range of
opinions before we commit to a license for SAX2.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 10 19:24:19 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000110112555.0149a810@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:08 PM 1/10/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:

>I'll take this as a (very well-reasoned) vote for leaving SAX2 in the
>Public Domain, just like SAX1.  With SAX1, I made that decision rather
>autocratically (I just did it), but I'd like to hear a range of
>opinions before we commit to a license for SAX2.

Yes, quite convincing.  The real problem we'd like to solve is, we'd
like to try to prevent anyone who makes incompatible changes from still
claiming it to be "SAX" and using the org.xml.sax package name.  Right?

Is there anything in the way of licensing, trademark, or copyright
machinery that would be helpful? -Tim

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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan 10 19:44:56 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Unicode confusion
Message-ID: <87256862.006C7091.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>> If anything, it should go the other way. Unicode should be the core
>> API, and there should be helper API to allow the use of local code
>> page chars where necessary. Everything should be set up to optimize
>> use of the Unicode API, with local code page use paying the price,
>> since Unicode is the more desireable format.
>
>No one's disagreeing with the use of Unicode; we're talking about
>which character encoding we'll use to represent it.  You can represent
>Unicode in variable-width 8-bit or 16-bit encodings or in fixed-width
>32-bit encodings.
>
>Note that Java uses UTF-16, which isn't quite fixed-width, though no
>one really notices.
>

Our parser already adopts to whether the native wchar_t is 16 or 32 bits,
though it still uses surrogates and stores 16 bit data points in the 32 bit
values when its 32 bits. However, it could also pretty reasonably also
adopt to not using surrogates if the local wchar_t is 32 bits. I guess it
comes down to whatever the local system's wide character APIs expect. If it
expects 32 bit values without surrogates, then it would be kind of
necessary to give them that. If it expects 16 bit code points with
surrogates, irregardless of the fact that the wchar_t is 32 bits perhaps,
then it would best to give them that.

Going this far would require some support in parsers that might not be
common, but I think that we could do that reasonably in the Xerces/XML4C
stuff without too much pulling out of hair or added complexity. The
internalization of text into the local format is pretty constrained. The
big iss though is that you are kind of dependent upon what transcoding
package you use. For those incodings that we handle intrinsically, we could
do this well enough. But we allow each platform to use its own transcoding
mechanism if they choose to, and they probably are going to support one
scheme or the other. Hopefully they would support the local scheme, but you
could also choose to use some portable package such as ICU which is going
to do one thing.

So, perhaps the question is: Are there any systems out there which use 32
bit wchar_t *and* expect that surrogates will not be used?

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan 10 19:49:10 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Unicode confusion
Message-ID: <87256862.006CD566.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>> > If anything, it should go the other way. Unicode should be the core
>> > API, and there should be helper API to allow the use of local code
>> > page chars where necessary. Everything should be set up to optimize
>> > use of the Unicode API, with local code page use paying the price,
>> > since Unicode is the more desireable format.
>
>I took that as referring to 16-bit character codes vs variable width
>or 32-bit ones.  And when I take it that way, I agree!  (However, the
>notion of a "Unicode API" struck me as strange; the spec has no API.)
>

I was just refering to the local wide character API, which I misadvisedly
called the Unicode API. I just meant that whatever we do it must be
optimized so that the local wide character APIs of the system (which
hopefully are Unicode, else we are in real trouble), are maximally
interoperable with data going into and coming out of the SAX API.

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan 10 20:18:30 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
Message-ID: <87256862.006F8848.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>and a program compares them with equals() in Java or == in C++.  Most
>people are arguing that the two should be equals()/==, but a few
>people have pointed out that that is a nasty trap for any programmer
>who is not extremely familiar with the Namespaces spec.
>
>My proposed solution is simply to punt: don't introduce a QName class
>in SAX2, and leave such things to higher-level specs, which can
>deal with these as they see fit.
>

I agree with David here. Just spit out the information as strings and leave
it up to the reciever to put it where it feels the best. Don't assume that
people want to 'program in SAX', in my opinion. Its job should be to get
the parms in and get the data out in an API that people can write
generically to, and introduce as little overhead as is reasonable in the
process.

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From tmmet at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 10 20:48:00 2000
From: tmmet at hotmail.com (tmmet tvp)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Unicode Support
Message-ID: <20000110204726.36369.qmail@hotmail.com>

Hi,
I want to display different language text in my xml file...How can I do 
this?.Any ideas/suggestions will be greatly helpful for me...Thanks in 
advance.
______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From oren at capella.co.il  Mon Jan 10 21:13:17 2000
From: oren at capella.co.il (Oren Ben-Kiki)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Fw: Re: Namespace prefixes optional?
Message-ID: <0c7b01bf5bad$b149b210$4602a8c0@capella.co.il>

I'm hijacking this to the SML group. Nice idea, definitely not XML -> seems
like good potential SML material.

----- Original Message -----
From: <rev-bob@gotc.com>
To: xml-dev <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2000 18:57
Subject: re: Re: Namespace prefixes optional?


> > > That is, by defining "fragment" as belonging to namespace rbns, I am
defining the
> > > attributes of "fragment" and the children of "fragment" as belonging
to the same
> > > namespace by default.  With the "p" element, I declare that it belongs
to the htmlns
> > > namespace, along with (by default) its children and attributes.  With
the "b"
> > > element, for some reason, I need to attach an attribute from the
bubbans namespace
> > > - so I mark just that attribute as belonging to a different space.
When "p" closes, so
> > > does the htmlns fragment, and the default namespace reverts back to
rbns.
> > >
> > > Simple enough?
> >
> > Perhaps too simple. :-)
>
> Then perhaps I've hit the mark squarely.
>
> > In the event that you wanted to fragment your data further and the
original namespace
> > was significant in the new context, you would meed to obtain from the
higher level
> > element and make it explicit when you do the fragmentation.
>
> Why?  It's a really simple concept - whenever a child (element or
attribute) requires a
> namespace which is not the same as its parent's namespace, the child's
namespace must
> be explicitly noted.  That's the extent of the relationship - grandparents
and such are
> important only so far as defining the parent.  In other words, consider
another XHTML
> example:
>
> <htmlns:table align="center">
>   <tr><td><table>
>     <tr><td><rbns:name>
>     <first>Robert</first><htmlns:b>L.</b><last>Hood</last>
>     </name></td></tr>
>   </table></td></tr>
> </table>
>
> That name element is buried deep in layers of htmlns-code, but the only
concern is that
> the name tag does not reside in the same namespace as the td element which
contains it.
> Similarly, the bold-faced middle initial doesn't look at the preceding
code to say "I'm in
> the same namespace as the outermost table element," but instead just says
"I'm in the
> html namespace."  Each element can be understood with minimal code - just
know the
> parent's namespace, and know how to pass it along as the default for the
children.
> Containers and recursion work very well together, don't you think?  Once
the b element
> completes (pops), its temporary island of XHTML goes away, and the
previous default
> (rbns) resumes control.  Once that name element pops, the previous default
(which
> happens to be XHTML again) reasserts itself.
>
> Maybe I *did* make this too simple; you seem too eager to make it far more
complex
> than it really is.
>
> > I suppose the feeling was that you can create your data in the way that
you described,
> > then apply a simple tool to make the namespaces explicit,
>
> No, no, no!  No more tools required!  At all!  Say it with me: "A child
element inherits
> the namespace of its parent, unless otherwise specified.  An attribute
inherits the
> namespace of the element to which it belongs, unless otherwise specified."
Boom.
> Done.  Clear?
>
> > and that this was preferable to requiring the manipulation when the data
is being
> > fragmented.
>
> No, the feeling was that defining a default namespace via inheritance is
preferable to the
> endless debate about how:
>
> <htmlns:a href="http://www.gotc.com">
>
> compares to:
>
> <htmlns:a htmlns:href="http://www.gotc.com">
>
> With the inheritance model I've laid out, these are explicitly identical -
because in the
> first example, href *inherits* its namespace from a, which is defined as
being in the
> htmlns namespace.  A namespace-compliant parser would hit the htmlns:a
element, note
> it as an a element which belongs in the htmlns space, and treat all the
children and
> attributes of that element as defaulting to the htmlns space.  The href
attribute is next in
> line - no explicit namespace, so it belongs to the default - htmlns.  When
the a element
> closes, so does its domain of inheritance; the parent has no more
children, so it cannot
> pass on its namespace to anything else.
>
> The only thing I'm not really sure about with this model is whether the
namespace
> should be explicitly stated on the closing tags - ie., whether my
nested-table example
> should really read like so:
>
> <htmlns:table align="center">
>   <tr><td><table>
>     <tr><td><rbns:name>
>     <first>Robert</first><htmlns:b>L.</htmlns:b><last>Hood</last>
>     </rbns:name></td></tr>
>   </table></td></tr>
> </htmlns:table>
>
> I can see arguments both ways - on the one hand, a non-namespace parser
will treat
> htmlns:table and table as different elements, and thus should report an
improper nesting
> error (right?), so adding the namespace to the closing tag avoids that and
also makes the
> inheritance domain a bit clearer to someone trying to read the code.  I
could live with
> that, I guess....
>
> > >  Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
> >
> > I'm guessing you've been quiet because Christmas is your busy
period...:-)
>
> No, just haven't had a lot to say.  That, and I'm in the middle of moving
*and*
> preparing to attend a science fiction convention this weekend....  (I get
to interview
> Bruce Sterling!  Woo-hoo!)
>
>
>
>  Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
>   Get Off The Cross!  | http://www.gotc.com/
>
> Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ and on
CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> List coordinator, Henry Rzepa (mailto:rzepa@ic.ac.uk)
>


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 10 21:20:42 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <3.0.32.20000110112555.0149a810@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387A4D1D.A9C49C9A@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
>  ...  The real problem we'd like to solve is, we'd
> like to try to prevent anyone who makes incompatible changes from still
> claiming it to be "SAX" and using the org.xml.sax package name.  Right?
> 
> Is there anything in the way of licensing, trademark, or copyright
> machinery that would be helpful? -Tim

Certainly.  The question is then who pays the lawyers to enforce
those claims.  Classically it's the copyright/trademark owner,
since nobody else has legal standing.  Public domain items have
no such owner.

- Dave

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From mrc at allette.com.au  Mon Jan 10 21:58:20 2000
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: Namespace prefixes optional?
References: <200001101157201.SM01076@Unknown.>
Message-ID: <387A562C.16F19C91@allette.com.au>


rev-bob@gotc.com wrote:

> Maybe I *did* make this too simple; you seem too eager to make it far more complex
> than it really is.

Too many sugary drinks, Rev. I replied in the spirit of providing what I believed the motivation
for the decision was. I'm not eager to make anything anything.

> > I suppose the feeling was that you can create your data in the way that you described,
> > then apply a simple tool to make the namespaces explicit,
>
> No, no, no!  No more tools required!  At all!  Say it with me: "A child element inherits
> the namespace of its parent, unless otherwise specified.  An attribute inherits the
> namespace of the element to which it belongs, unless otherwise specified."  Boom.
> Done.  Clear?

Absolutely. So, could you tell me what namespace the following fragment inherits?

<Nappy Condition="dirty"/>

Probably not, because although there may have been a namespace associated with an ancestor
element, the relationship is lost when the element is removed from that context. Boom, err,
Done...

> With the inheritance model I've laid out, these are explicitly identical - because in the
> first example, href *inherits* its namespace from a, which is defined as being in the
> htmlns namespace.  A namespace-compliant parser would hit the htmlns:a element, note
> it as an a element which belongs in the htmlns space, and treat all the children and
> attributes of that element as defaulting to the htmlns space.  The href attribute is next in
> line - no explicit namespace, so it belongs to the default - htmlns.  When the a element
> closes, so does its domain of inheritance; the parent has no more children, so it cannot
> pass on its namespace to anything else.

As stated above, that only works when the child element has the correct ancestor to inherit
from, but that is only one application of namespaces, and a fairly uncomplicated one at that. As
soon as you use the element in another context but want to preserve the namespace, you need to
formalise it.

I really don't see what the difficulty is - you can do what you want to on the data creation
side. If you want namespaces to be inherited, then they are. Now all you have to do is translate
your data to make it unambiguously useful to anyone (including you) who might want to poach a
fragment without having to assign a new namespace to it.


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein



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From paul at prescod.net  Mon Jan 10 22:32:25 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <3.0.32.20000110112555.0149a810@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387A5DA4.FE2228EC@prescod.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 02:08 PM 1/10/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
> 
> >I'll take this as a (very well-reasoned) vote for leaving SAX2 in the
> >Public Domain, just like SAX1.  With SAX1, I made that decision rather
> >autocratically (I just did it), but I'd like to hear a range of
> >opinions before we commit to a license for SAX2.
> 
> Yes, quite convincing.  The real problem we'd like to solve is, we'd
> like to try to prevent anyone who makes incompatible changes from still
> claiming it to be "SAX" and using the org.xml.sax package name.  Right?

 * can you define "incompatible change"? The typical Big Bad Company
approach is to add methods that don't break anything but "embraces and
extends". The problem is that we really like it when Small Virtuous
Companies do this.

 * would there be any benefit in a BBC :) making a SAX2 implementation
that truly broke all of the wonderful SAX2 tools out there? Is this a
case we are really worried about?

If this is worth doing then the way I would propose to do it would be to
tie the trademark to a test suite. I would be surprised if David was
actually willing to go to court over a test suite failure but it might
help us in trying to shame the company into doing the right thing.
-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
When I'm gone, boxing will be nothing again.  The fans with the cigars
and the hats turned down'll be there, but no more housewives and
little men in the street and foreign presidents.  .... I was the
onliest boxer in history people asked questions like a senator.  
            -- Muhammad Ali

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 11 04:32:11 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
References: <3.0.32.20000110112555.0149a810@pop.intergate.ca> <387A5DA4.FE2228EC@prescod.net>
Message-ID: <387AB23B.9833E4AC@pacbell.net>

Paul Prescod wrote:
> 
> If this is worth doing then the way I would propose to do it would
> be to tie the trademark to a test suite.

Which is what Sun is doing with its standard extensions; there's
at least one precedent beyond POSIX certification.

FWIW I'm more than willing to hear about issues people may have in
the SAX-1.0/XML-1.0 test harness I've written (on my XML page),
and would be interested in any enhancements folk have that can
promote SAX-2.0 conformance testing.

Fair notice:  those aren't the only standards that'll be involved
in such work.  And of course, since it's Open Source it can be used
without my active involvement too.  (Though I'd love to hear about
it before anyone starts!)

- Dave

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From nicmila at vscht.cz  Tue Jan 11 08:34:51 2000
From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:08 2004
Subject: A new Zvon tutorial - DTD
Message-ID: <387AEAE4.76B6A9E8@vscht.cz>

I have just published a new Zvon tutorial, this time about DTD.

http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/DTDTutorial/General/book.html

It contains several dozens valid and nonvalid XML documents
-- 
***************************************************************
Dr. Miloslav Nic                        e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz
Department of Organic Chemistry         TEL: +420 2 2435 5012  
ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha)                     +420 2 2435 4118
    				        FAX: +420 2 2435 4288  
****************************************************************
Support free information exchange: http://zvon.vscht.cz
****************************************************************

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 11 14:41:53 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Sterday morning mind games or News from Didier's lab
In-Reply-To: <001601bf5b46$67fee6a0$7201a8c0@gdm.stepuk.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEEBELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Graham,

Graham said:
----------------------------
The LISP approach has long interested me:

its not a great leap to imagine (I might not have matching brackets here..)

(xsl:template ((match booklist/item)(ID g34)))
  (!cdata (
	(make display-group
		(make box
			(literal "Is this weirdo??")
			(make rule)
			(make paragraph)
		)
	)
	))
	(xsl:apply-templates ((select="."/)))
)


And then a mce to evaluate XML rather then having to blur XML parser with
LISP eval. The kinds of paradimgs that have been heavily researched in the
LISP/ Scheme environemnts such as continuations would, I believe, open us
some interesting possibilities.

Didier reply:
----------------------------
In fact this is mostly what DSSSL is doing today even in a simpler form
except for the query expression which is based on SDQL and which is not a
masterpiece of conciseness. One of the OpenJade team member played with the
idea of implementing an XPath parser in DSSSL so that we could  have an
expression like:

(query (xpath "booklist/item")
	(make display-group
		(make box
			(literal "Is this weirdo??")
			(make rule)
			(make paragraph
				(process-children)
			)
	)

)

If you want to know more about the OpenJade project or experiment with
scheme based language you can go to: http://www.netfolder.com/DSSSL.
OpenJade is now on the route of its third release since less then one year.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences:
Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 11 15:34:57 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: About the XPath experiment
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEEDELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Brandon,

I remember that you started to implement an XPath parser implemented in
DSSSL. Do you still have it, I would be interested to take a look at it and
probably adding value to it since having an xpath parser can make queries
more concise than with SDQL and would be more appealing to XML developers. I
just posted an example on XML-DEV and people responded well to it:

example:
(query (xpath "booklist/item")
	(make display-group
		(make box
			(literal "Is this weirdo??")
			(make rule)
			(make paragraph
				(process-children)
			)
	)

)

I discovered something interesting in the process of asking questions about
this topic. He is what I got:
a) people find XPath easier than SDQL because they can read the expression
from left to right (off course they are used to it since most European
languages have such reading rules)
b) people get difficulties to grasp SDQL expressions because they have to
start from the center (or the right) and then to the left. This is most of
the time contrary to their reading habits (reciprocal of the (a) statement)
c)XPath is more readable than SDQL but not necessarily a piece of cake. But
because of (a) the comfort level is higher than with SDQL.

So, this is more a question of usability than a question of what each query
language can or cannot do. However, I did not made any research in middle
east countries. Probably the opinion would be different there since these
people are used to read from the right to the left. Therefore, maybe they
would find it easier to read an SDQL expression than an XPath expression.

Conclusion:
It is probably best to have both. The choice being principally a matter of
cultural habits and preferences.

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com  Tue Jan 11 15:57:41 2000
From: aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Is <any> really enough for <any><body>?
Message-ID: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B335@world.cinnober.com>

> <warning>
> <topic>
> I'm can see  need for more powerful <any> 
> (http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-1/#declare-openness).
> My problem is probably repeated few times on xml-dev or 
> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-schema-comments/, and 
> since I don't know where to discuss about schemas, I'd like to hear 
> about better place for this discussion.
> </topic>
> 
> <discussion level='beginner'>
> Don't kill me. I started with schemas on 
> Saturday and I bumped into problem with my first exercise schema (so I
> concluded 
> there have to be real need for this, not just something from my 
> imagination). 
> </discussion>
> </warning>
> 
> How to express some constraints on <any> element? As I see it, 
> specification doesn't provide any ways for this. (Correct me, 
> please!:) 
> 
> What is the right way to express such simple thing as "any element 
> with child X". 
> 
> I'd like to reform rule 1 at 3.5 Wildcards (and rest accordingly):
> o Any well-formed XML element item with specified type constraint:
>   any tag, any namespace, any attributes, any content, as long 
>   as it's well-formed and satisfy specified schema's type constraint.
> 
> I can come up with different ways to express same thing:
> <any type='Type'/>
> <element type='Type'/>
> <element name='' type='Type'/>
> 
> But since regular expressions are now introduced, I'd love to use 
> them:
> 
> <element name='*' type='Type'/>
> <element name='*' ref="VaryingName1"/>
> 
> Allowing references in the consturct is very important!
> 
> Maybe star wildcard is just enough, but I can make some real use for 
> real patterns too:
> 
> <element name='expect_varying_named_binary_operators'>
>     <element name='(and|or|own.+BinaryOperator)' 
>              type='BinaryOperator'/>
> </element>
> 
> <type name='BinaryOperator'>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
> </type>
> 
> ========
> document_written_by_some_completely_different_user.xml:
> ========
> <expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
>     <own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> 	    <op1/>
> 	    <op2/>
>     </own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> </expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
> 
> ----------------
> In the end I thought a little bit about usability and thought it 
> might be better idea to set varying names to different attribute than 
> name on <element>-element.
> 
> <element match='*'> like in xsl might be best solution.
> 
> Any ideas, comments?
> 
>      - department of uncensored ideas
> 

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Tue Jan 11 16:01:13 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: document generation
In-Reply-To: <OF5589731B.A4DC2368-ON86256862.0062A618@trilogy.com>
References: <OF5589731B.A4DC2368-ON86256862.0062A618@trilogy.com>
Message-ID: <m3u2kka981.fsf@ifi.uio.no>


* Corbett Klempay
| 
| I need to pull loads of info from a DB and generate some XML
| conforming to a DTD I made up recently.  My question is: is the
| recommended way of generating XML in this scenario to just actually
| write the XML out to a PrintWriter, printing a line at time (sort of
| a 'manual' process)...or is there some certain recommended way of
| building the document in memory and then writing it out at once?

Writing a SAX DocumentHandler that generates the document to a
PrintWriter from the events you trigger can be a nice way of doing
it. That way you can often easily pipe the generation through some
other process should you later need to.

Another solution in your case may be DB2XML:

  <URL: http://www.garshol.priv.no/download/xmltools/prod/DB2XML.html >

--Lars M.


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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Tue Jan 11 16:25:35 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: ANN: Help file for 17 Dec XML Schema
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7482@THOR>

A HTMLHelp file for the 17 Dec W3C XML Schema Working Draft is now available
for free download from AEA Technology - Engineering Software site at
http://www.software.aeat.com/xml/resources.htm.  This help file is being
provided to assist the XML community in understanding and refining XML
Schema as it approaches recommendation status.  The help file is extensively
crosslinked and indexed, supports full text search, has content model
diagrams for all elements, and has links to pertinent public comments and
xml-dev threads.  This help file is not endorsed or approved in any way by
the World Wide Web consortium or the W3C Schema working group. Comments and
remarks in this document are strictly those of the author.

In addition, a help file for a variant schema for schema that attempts to
address several issues in the 17 Dec Working Draft is also available.  The
variant has no official standing and is presently solely to foster
discussion on resolutions to the identified issues.  A list of the issues
covered appears on the contents page of the help file.

If you have any comments or questions, please send email to
mailto:xml@software.aeat.com.




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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan 11 16:35:37 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: ANN: Help file for 17 Dec XML Schema
In-Reply-To: "Arnold, Curt"'s message of "Tue, 11 Jan 2000 09:23:16 -0700"
References: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7482@THOR>
Message-ID: <f5br9foa7my.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Thanks for doing this, I look forward to reading through it.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Tue Jan 11 17:11:30 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Is <any> really enough for <any><body>?
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C7484@THOR>

Aleksi Niemel? [mailto:aleksi.niemela@cinnober.com] wrote:

> I don't know where to discuss about schemas, I'd like to hear 
> about better place for this discussion.

I don't know any better public forum than xml-dev, but it seems like nobody
wants to get into the nitty-gritty (you know the stuff that makes it
usable).

> How to express some constraints on <any> element? As I see it, 
> specification doesn't provide any ways for this. (Correct me, 
> please!:) 
> 
> What is the right way to express such simple thing as "any element 
> with child X". 
> 

Your examples seem somewhere in the middle between the use cases for
<import>/<include> and <any>.  

With import/include you are aware of some details of the other namespace and
are explicitly saying that specific elements from that namespace can appear
at specific places in content models in this namespace.

With any, you are not aware of the details of the namespace but you are
willing to accept schema-valid elements at specific places in content models
in this namespace.

Your situations seem to be somewhere in the middle where you know enough
information to wildcard, but not enough to include a group.  I'm not sure
how often this middle group would occur to justify enhancements to the any
construct.

In this case, you don't know anything about the namespace other than the
fact that it has elements that apparently contain one of your element's X.
Something like:

<x:tag1>
	<!-- we don't know about y, but allow element by an any content
fragment  -->
	<y:tag2>
	<!-- y knows about us or used an any construct to all x:tag3 to
appear -->
		<x:tag2/>
	</y:tag2>
</x:tag1>

It would of course be directly supportable if you flipped the content model
so it would be:

<x:tag1>
	<x:tag2>
		<y:tag2/>
	</x:tag2>
</x:tag1>

and it avoids an unnecessary shift in namespaces.

> I'd like to reform rule 1 at 3.5 Wildcards (and rest accordingly):
> o Any well-formed XML element item with specified type constraint:
>   any tag, any namespace, any attributes, any content, as long 
>   as it's well-formed and satisfy specified schema's type constraint.
> 
> I can come up with different ways to express same thing:
> <any type='Type'/>
> <element type='Type'/>
> <element name='' type='Type'/>
> 
> But since regular expressions are now introduced, I'd love to use 
> them:
> 
> <element name='*' type='Type'/>
> <element name='*' ref="VaryingName1"/>
> 

I'd like to avoid this, though be tolerable for a validator, it would
complicate schema-aware editors, documentation, etc.  I think that you have
to come down on the side of effectiveness of validation and simplicity of
parser support.  We can always have higher-levels of abstraction and useful
editing shortcuts in our ultimate schema source that we then XSLT to the
schema that the validation uses.  In this case, you could write an XSLT
transform that expands your wildcard element into a choice group.


> Allowing references in the consturct is very important!
> 
> Maybe star wildcard is just enough, but I can make some real use for 
> real patterns too:
> 
> <element name='expect_varying_named_binary_operators'>
>     <element name='(and|or|own.+BinaryOperator)' 
>              type='BinaryOperator'/>
> </element>
> 
> <type name='BinaryOperator'>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
> </type>
> 
> ========
> document_written_by_some_completely_different_user.xml:
> ========
> <expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
>     <own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> 	    <op1/>
> 	    <op2/>
>     </own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> </expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
> 

This could be cleanly done with something like:

<BinaryOps>
	<BinaryOp>
		<Object class="http://www.xxx.com/myWeirdBinaryOperation"/>
		<Op/>
		<Op/>
	</BinaryOp>
</BinaryOps>

or:

<BinaryOps>
	<BinaryOp operator="xxxns:weirdOperator">
		<Op/>
		<Op/>
	</BinaryOp>
</BinaryOps>

Either of these enforce this structure in this namespace and then allow
alien behavior by little data islands that fit within that structure.
Instead of expecting parts of alien namespaces to adhere to this namespaces
idea of structure.

I think that the current <any> and <anyAttribute> are pretty close to being
able to support the need and their "limitations" cause you to come up with a
better solution.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com  Tue Jan 11 18:11:11 2000
From: aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Is <any> really enough for <any><body>?
Message-ID: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B337@world.cinnober.com>

Thank you for enlightening discussion. You made me clear up my thoughts. But
first I'd like to note that anything I propose is not kind of real proposal
to change current WD. Hopefully I make it clear when I'm making real
proposal :).

The difference between documents

    <BinaryOps>
        <own_arbitrary_BinaryOperator>
            <op1/>
            <op2/>
        </own_arbitrary_BinaryOperator>
    </BinaryOps>

and 

    <BinaryOps>
        <BinaryOp name="own_arbitrary_BinaryOperator">
            <op name="op1"/>
            <op name="op2"/>
        </BinaryOp>
    </BinaryOps>

is in the level of structuralization. The first is focusing on the message
while the latter have more structure (with fixed names you can trust).

We can currently support schema for the last one. But then we fix up
possible names of elements.

I like to be able to say something more specific for the first one than
    <element name="BinaryOps">
        <type>
            <any/>
        </type>
    </element>

for several reasons:
1) I'm not saying <any>thing at all (just that there is some XML coming,
don't be scared even while you don't know anything about the monster
beforehand)
1) I know more about the structure
2) I want to describe the required structure (so that others know it too)
3) I want to somebody else to check the user is getting the structure I want
(and I have a feeling that that somebody could (should?) be XML-processor)

When I explained my schema to my colleague, first question he asked was 

"why don't you say
    <element name="elem" type="elem_type">
        <element name="child">
            <type>
                <attribute name="attr" type="attr_datatype"/>
            </type>
        </element>
    </element>

in a way the structure is in the documents you try to describe:

    <elem xschm:type="elem_type">
        <child attr="xschm:attr_datatype"/>
    </elem>

Afterall, it's all about the structure (and typing:).
" (quote ends :)

I couldn't answer.

    - Aleksi


-----Original Message-----
From: Arnold, Curt [mailto:Curt.Arnold@hyprotech.com]
Sent: den 11 januari 2000 18:09
To: 'Aleksi Niemel?'
Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'; 'www-xml-schema-comments@w3.org'
Subject: RE: Is <any> really enough for <any><body>?


Aleksi Niemel? [mailto:aleksi.niemela@cinnober.com] wrote:

> I don't know where to discuss about schemas, I'd like to hear 
> about better place for this discussion.

I don't know any better public forum than xml-dev, but it seems like nobody
wants to get into the nitty-gritty (you know the stuff that makes it
usable).

> How to express some constraints on <any> element? As I see it, 
> specification doesn't provide any ways for this. (Correct me, 
> please!:) 
> 
> What is the right way to express such simple thing as "any element 
> with child X". 
> 

Your examples seem somewhere in the middle between the use cases for
<import>/<include> and <any>.  

With import/include you are aware of some details of the other namespace and
are explicitly saying that specific elements from that namespace can appear
at specific places in content models in this namespace.

With any, you are not aware of the details of the namespace but you are
willing to accept schema-valid elements at specific places in content models
in this namespace.

Your situations seem to be somewhere in the middle where you know enough
information to wildcard, but not enough to include a group.  I'm not sure
how often this middle group would occur to justify enhancements to the any
construct.

In this case, you don't know anything about the namespace other than the
fact that it has elements that apparently contain one of your element's X.
Something like:

<x:tag1>
	<!-- we don't know about y, but allow element by an any content
fragment  -->
	<y:tag2>
	<!-- y knows about us or used an any construct to all x:tag3 to
appear -->
		<x:tag2/>
	</y:tag2>
</x:tag1>

It would of course be directly supportable if you flipped the content model
so it would be:

<x:tag1>
	<x:tag2>
		<y:tag2/>
	</x:tag2>
</x:tag1>

and it avoids an unnecessary shift in namespaces.

> I'd like to reform rule 1 at 3.5 Wildcards (and rest accordingly):
> o Any well-formed XML element item with specified type constraint:
>   any tag, any namespace, any attributes, any content, as long 
>   as it's well-formed and satisfy specified schema's type constraint.
> 
> I can come up with different ways to express same thing:
> <any type='Type'/>
> <element type='Type'/>
> <element name='' type='Type'/>
> 
> But since regular expressions are now introduced, I'd love to use 
> them:
> 
> <element name='*' type='Type'/>
> <element name='*' ref="VaryingName1"/>
> 

I'd like to avoid this, though be tolerable for a validator, it would
complicate schema-aware editors, documentation, etc.  I think that you have
to come down on the side of effectiveness of validation and simplicity of
parser support.  We can always have higher-levels of abstraction and useful
editing shortcuts in our ultimate schema source that we then XSLT to the
schema that the validation uses.  In this case, you could write an XSLT
transform that expands your wildcard element into a choice group.


> Allowing references in the consturct is very important!
> 
> Maybe star wildcard is just enough, but I can make some real use for 
> real patterns too:
> 
> <element name='expect_varying_named_binary_operators'>
>     <element name='(and|or|own.+BinaryOperator)' 
>              type='BinaryOperator'/>
> </element>
> 
> <type name='BinaryOperator'>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
>     <element name='*' type='Operand'/>
> </type>
> 
> ========
> document_written_by_some_completely_different_user.xml:
> ========
> <expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
>     <own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> 	    <op1/>
> 	    <op2/>
>     </own_ultimately_weird_BinaryOperator>
> </expect_varying_named_binary_operators>
> 

This could be cleanly done with something like:

<BinaryOps>
	<BinaryOp>
		<Object class="http://www.xxx.com/myWeirdBinaryOperation"/>
		<Op/>
		<Op/>
	</BinaryOp>
</BinaryOps>

or:

<BinaryOps>
	<BinaryOp operator="xxxns:weirdOperator">
		<Op/>
		<Op/>
	</BinaryOp>
</BinaryOps>

Either of these enforce this structure in this namespace and then allow
alien behavior by little data islands that fit within that structure.
Instead of expecting parts of alien namespaces to adhere to this namespaces
idea of structure.

I think that the current <any> and <anyAttribute> are pretty close to being
able to support the need and their "limitations" cause you to come up with a
better solution.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.

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From tyler at infinet.com  Tue Jan 11 20:46:37 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>         <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain> <m3bt6tddel.fsf@ifi.uio.no>
Message-ID: <387B9638.760AF64A@infinet.com>

Lars Marius Garshol wrote:

> * Stefan Haustein
> |
> | Is "no namespace" reported with a null or empty String (for interned
> | Strings, the equals problem does not exist)?
>
> * David Megginson
> |
> | Empty string sounds like a reasonable suggestion when Namespace
> | processing is being performed; null when it is not (so that a bugs
> | in code will show up sooner).
>
> There is a problem with this: SAX filters should be able to compare
> names without knowing whether namespace processing is on or not.
> Allowing parts of names to be null makes this much more complicated,
> since this is a comparison of two three-string tuples. So from a
> filter point of view it would be much better if no part of a name
> could ever be null. (I'm a bit unsure what to do with the raw name
> when there is no original raw name.)
>
> | That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
> | Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
> | java.lang.String.intern)?
>
> This sounds like it could cause a huge performance gap between
> implementations. I think the MSXML driver and the SAX1 adapter will
> have to intern every name-part string that is passed to them, which I
> assume would be very costly. (The alternative would be breaking
> applications, unless there is a cheaper way.)
>
> Also, many parsers already do their own interning and support for
> SAX2, and these would then require either the solution above or a
> (non-costly) change to the parser itself. This definitely sounds like
> something that is easily forgotten, thus causing incompatibilities.

Very true, but parsers can keep interned strings (the result of java.lang.String.intern() )
mapped in their own parser string table. So whenever you come across a new element or
attribute name for instance, your readName() method (assuming you have one) would:

- Check to see if the character sequence comprises a legal XML Name.
- Generate a hashcode of the XML Name characters.
- Look in your string map using the generated hashcode and character sequence to see if there
is an already stored interned String in it.
- If there is an interned string in the string map that is equal to the XML Name character
sequence, return the interned string.
- If there is no matching interned string, create a new String object using the read
characters, and call intern on it to retrieve an interned string. Store the interned string in
the string map, and return it as well.

I have found this to be a significant performance enhancement at the application level as your
case statements using XML names can safely test for identity and not equality (which is much
more expensive especially in a large case statement).

For SAX drivers, interning every string could cause big performance problems, but most parsers
support SAX natively now so worrying about drivers of XML parsers that have lackluster
performance in ther first place, should not be a big concern here anyways.

Tyler


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 11 21:16:01 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
	 <387A0698.C6B94D56@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
	 <14458.2661.280135.793565@localhost.localdomain>
	 <387A1629.27E57BF3@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de> <14458.11300.932718.977618@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387B9D88.6E54672C@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
>  > > That's a good question -- should SAX2 require that all names and
>  > > Namespace URIs be interned (i.e. == to the results of
>  > > java.lang.String.intern)?
> 
> I don't know if there's a lot of benefit in requiring this, though --
> it's just a trial balloon right now.

I almost hesitate to suggest exposing it as a feature, but that
may be the right way to go.  Apps depending on "==" and "!=" for
fast comparisons could just reject parsers that don't do it, and
others wouldn't care.  I can't see any parser bothering to make
that feature state mutable -- the cost is writing the code, not
running it.

- Dave

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From pctrips at yahoo.com  Tue Jan 11 22:14:21 2000
From: pctrips at yahoo.com (prakash tripathi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000111221229.11598.qmail@web116.yahoomail.com>

unsubscribe


__________________________________________________
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 11 23:16:45 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: SAX2: Which license?
In-Reply-To: <m3k8lhdg7f.fsf@ifi.uio.no>
References: <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain>
 <14455.34497.585292.103126@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Version.32.20000112220724.00e6e520@pop3.demon.co.uk>

At 05:49 PM 1/10/00 +0100, Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
>
>* David Megginson
>|
>| As we move to SAX2, I was wondering what licensing we should use?
>| Is public domain still OK?
>
>Personally, I think so. Does anyone have any good arguments for
>something more restrictive?
>
I think it is valuable to have a minimal copyright which preserves authors'
moral rights. My (limited) understanding of "public domain" is that anyone
can do anything with a PD document, including scraping off the original
author's name and replacing it with others or modifying the content to the
detriment of the author(s) intentions. This could happen without malice -
the commonest might be abbreviating a document which changed the intention
of the author. A good example of this - which I appreciate and respect - is
that Jon Bosak requires that his Shakespeare/Religion XML examples not be
modified. My feeling is that "reference" documents like APIs should also
not be modified, certainly not by unmarked deletions.

	P.


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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan 12 00:30:01 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
In-Reply-To: <Version.32.20000112220724.00e6e520@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001111928520.1437-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

Yes. More 'fundamental' questions... sorry.

Most of the XML DTD's that I've seen 
are strictly hierarchical.  Questions:

1.  Are there any use cases besides HTML
    for mixed content?

2.  For modular XHTML, could a <xhtml:plain>
    element be included that eliminates 
    the need for mixed-content?

    <p>hello<b>world</b></p>
  
           becomes

    <p><plain>hello</plain>
       <b><plain>world</plain></b>
    </p>


Thanks!

Clark


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From stan.w at mindspring.com  Wed Jan 12 00:51:09 2000
From: stan.w at mindspring.com (Stan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <001c01bf5c97$50aa0500$4418f7a5@gaia>

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 12 01:03:46 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000111170329.01493b40@pop.intergate.ca>

At 07:32 PM 1/11/00 -0500, Clark C. Evans wrote:
>1.  Are there any use cases besides HTML
>    for mixed content?

Virtually every document- or publishing-oriented application in 
the world.  

>2.  For modular XHTML, could a <xhtml:plain>
>    element be included that eliminates 
>    the need for mixed-content?

Sure.  Why would this be better? -Tim


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From mrc at allette.com.au  Wed Jan 12 01:25:28 2000
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001111928520.1437-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <387BD834.D0009500@allette.com.au>


"Clark C. Evans" wrote:

> Most of the XML DTD's that I've seen
> are strictly hierarchical.  Questions:
>
> 1.  Are there any use cases besides HTML
>     for mixed content?

Unquestionably.

> 2.  For modular XHTML, could a <xhtml:plain>
>     element be included that eliminates
>     the need for mixed-content?
>
>     <p>hello<b>world</b></p>
>
>            becomes
>
>     <p><plain>hello</plain>
>        <b><plain>world</plain></b>
>     </p>

... and:

    <p>hello <i>sweet <b>world</b></i>.</p>

becomes:

   <p><plain>hello</plain><i><plain>sweet</plain>
   <b><plain>world</plain></b></i><plain>.</plain></p>

I don't like you chances of selling that to anyone. Also, we have both conveniently
omitted the spaces between words - if inserted, a slightly different example of:

   <p>hello <i>sweet</i> <b>world</b>.</p>

... might become:

   <p><plain>hello </plain><i><plain>sweet</plain></i>
   <plain> </plain><b><plain>world</plain></b><plain>.</plain></p>

Just as the period isn't supposed to be emphasised, one could argue that the spaces don't
belong to the elements either. If the element was a partnumber, it would probably be
incorrect to insert an additional space - that means that you have to deal with them
separately, not just bundle them into a convenient element. I don't see much future for
your proposed approach.


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein



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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan 12 03:09:42 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
In-Reply-To: <387BD834.D0009500@allette.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001112210480.5105-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

Thanks for the feedback.

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Marcus Carr wrote:
> > Most of the XML DTD's that I've seen
> > are strictly hierarchical.  Questions:
> >
> > 1.  Are there any use cases besides HTML
> >     for mixed content?
> 
> Unquestionably.

Yep. I wasn't thinking. Sorry.
 
DocBook, etc.

 
> > 2.  For modular XHTML, could a <xhtml:plain>
> >     element be included that eliminates
> >     the need for mixed-content?
> 
>    <p>hello <i>sweet</i> <b>world</b>.</p>
> 
> ... might become:
> 
>    <p><plain>hello </plain><i><plain>sweet</plain></i>
>    <plain> </plain><b><plain>world</plain></b><plain>.</plain></p>
> 

Yes. It gets ugly quick.

Thanks!

Clark


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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 12 03:36:49 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000111193653.01494de0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 12:26 PM 1/12/00 +1100, Marcus Carr wrote:
>    <p>hello <i>sweet <b>world</b></i>.</p>
>becomes:
>   <p><plain>hello</plain><i><plain>sweet</plain>
>   <b><plain>world</plain></b></i><plain>.</plain></p>

How about

 <p><>hello </><i><>sweet </><b><>world</></b></i><>.</></p>
 
>   <p>hello <i>sweet</i> <b>world</b>.</p>

 <p><>hello </><i><>sweet</></i><> </><b>world</b><>.</></p>

Actually, in keeping with the spirit of XML, what we probably need is
an in-the-instance way to signal that a site has element content, 
something along the lines of

<dl xml:ct='e'>

where possible values of ct (for Content Type) are 'e' for element
content, 'm' for mixed, and 'p' for pure #PCDATA.

No, I'm probably not serious; just waiting for a big slow index-build. -T.




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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan 12 03:57:52 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000111170329.01493b40@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001112244060.5105-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Tue, 11 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:
> >1.  Are there any use cases besides HTML
> >    for mixed content?
> 
> Virtually every document- or publishing-oriented 
> application in the world.  

Let me re-phrase this.  Are there examples of mixed-model 
use-cases, where one DTD does not have mixed-content, 
and a subordinate/contained DTD (ANY) does use mixed-content.

For example, often times people put HTML inside eCommerce 
"description" fields, texts which are otherwise free of 
mixed content. (Hence the modular  XHTML effort)

Anyway, I feel stupid for not phrasing the question
correctly... I even did some SGML publishing work 
3 years back using Omnimark.  So sorry.
 
> >2.  For modular XHTML, could a <xhtml:plain>
> >    element be included that eliminates 
> >    the need for mixed-content?
> 
> Sure.  Why would this be better? -Tim

Well, the proposal is, in-essence, what the DOM model 
of XML does for all content -- however,  given that XHTML 
will most likely be machine generated anyway; this 
little tweak would allow a non-mixed content API to 
be useable for eCommerce work.  Moving XHTML into
the "special case" category.

So, I guess I was really trying to ask:

1.  How common is mixed model XML usage, where
    a mixed-content DTD is used as a subordinate
    document to a non-mixed-content model.

2.  Would it make sense to allow include 
    <xhtml:plain> as a no-op for cases where
    xhtml mixed-content is included in eCommerce
    non-mixed content.

Clark







Also, about 
So.  I was wondering if XHTML should be

This is in-essence what the DOM model does for all content, and it makes
it
hard for strict non-mixed use cases.

So, I was wondering if XHTML should 
not assume mixed-content



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From archiver at db.geocrawler.com  Wed Jan 12 04:04:11 2000
From: archiver at db.geocrawler.com (LaShika M)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
Message-ID: <200001120404.UAA22870@www.geocrawler.com>

This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M" <lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
Be sure to reply to that address.

Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in XML using Javascript?
Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for a couple of days and I have a 
assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of if it is possible to extract info 
out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another database.  HELP!

Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive

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From mrc at allette.com.au  Wed Jan 12 04:29:56 2000
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
References: <3.0.32.20000111193653.01494de0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387C0362.6ED419BA@allette.com.au>


Tim Bray wrote:

> How about
>
>  <p><>hello </><i><>sweet</></i><> </><b>world</b><>.</></p>

I like it! Then we could wrap it in a doc element, feed it to an normalising
SGML parser that allows start and end tag minimisation and watch it exhale a
sausage along the lines of:

<doc><p></p><p>hello </p><i></i>
<i>sweet</i><doc><p></p>
<b>world</b></doc></doc>
<doc><p>.</p></doc>

along with a whole stack of errors. It still conforms to the eleventh
commandment - "XML must be at least slightly easier to read than tea
leaves"...


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein



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From mrc at allette.com.au  Wed Jan 12 05:11:36 2000
From: mrc at allette.com.au (Marcus Carr)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: Mixed-content use-cases and questions
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001112244060.5105-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <387C0D33.3B654F1E@allette.com.au>


"Clark C. Evans" wrote:

> Let me re-phrase this.  Are there examples of mixed-model
> use-cases, where one DTD does not have mixed-content,
> and a subordinate/contained DTD (ANY) does use mixed-content.

Yes, in my experience this is still quite common. For example, I'm currently working on a
system that relies on assembling fragments in different configurations to produce new
products. The top level is never mixed content - it's just a collection of elements that
are DOCTYPEs when they're created. These elements certainly might not themselves contain
mixed content, but there is every possibility that an element further down the tree will.
Perhaps we're just looking at this from different perspectives, but I'd be surprised if
you could substantially reduce the possibility of mixed content without protest.

> 2.  Would it make sense to allow include
>     <xhtml:plain> as a no-op for cases where
>     xhtml mixed-content is included in eCommerce
>     non-mixed content.

Wouldn't that be kind of a modern-day <blink>? It's hard to see any benefit for anything
except SML.


--
Regards,

Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
___________________________________________________________________
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein



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From Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr  Wed Jan 12 11:06:34 2000
From: Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr (Sophie MABILAT)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: DOM...
Message-ID: <B1C8643B3AB0D21180250000C0B179CD05B707@JUPITER>

I use Microsoft Visual Basic for beginning working with XML documents.
Could someone explain me the difference between :
- XMLDOMDocument
- MSXML . DOMDocument
- IXMLDocument
- XMLDocument (this one seems to be obsolete...)
because I am totally confused ?

How can I find a DOM implementation that is not specific to Microsoft and
that I can use in VB ?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sophie MABILAT
Sophie.Mabilat@apitech.fr

APITECH 113, rue Marietton 69009 LYON FRANCE
Tél. : 04 78 43 49 30   Fax : 04 78 83 47 86
www.apitech.fr
www.zipbee.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 12 12:58:34 2000
From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:09 2004
Subject: DOM...
References: <B1C8643B3AB0D21180250000C0B179CD05B707@JUPITER>
Message-ID: <002401bf5cfc$4dc4f290$b6010180@p197>

> I use Microsoft Visual Basic for beginning working with XML documents.
> Could someone explain me the difference between :
> - XMLDOMDocument
> - MSXML . DOMDocument
> - IXMLDocument
> - XMLDocument (this one seems to be obsolete...)
> because I am totally confused ?

The problem is that the current MS stuff supports the old IE4 interfaces.
Check out the www.comdeveloper.com for an article that details what the
older interfaces are.

> How can I find a DOM implementation that is not specific to Microsoft and
> that I can use in VB ?

Check out ActiveDOM: http://www.vivid-creations.com

Regards,

Rich.



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From gulfeast at emirates.net.ae  Wed Jan 12 14:38:08 2000
From: gulfeast at emirates.net.ae (Gulf & East TRDG.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <1.5.4.32.20000112140816.0067e6b0@emirates.net.ae>

UNSUBSRIBE


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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Wed Jan 12 16:45:04 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
References: <200001120404.UAA22870@www.geocrawler.com>
Message-ID: <001501bf5d1e$72e6e5c0$8eaddccf@prioritynetworks.net>

> Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in XML using
Javascript?

This is quite easy to accomplish using ASP

Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: LaShika M <archiver@db.geocrawler.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 11, 2000 11:04 PM
Subject: XML & Databases


> This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M"
<lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
> Be sure to reply to that address.
>
> Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in XML using
Javascript?
> Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for a couple of
days and I have a
> assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of if it is
possible to extract info
> out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another database.
HELP!
>
> Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
>
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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Wed Jan 12 16:43:37 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: Thanks! (Was: Mixed-content use-cases and questions)
In-Reply-To: <387C0D33.3B654F1E@allette.com.au>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001121141180.5105-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Wed, 12 Jan 2000, Marcus Carr wrote:
> > Let me re-phrase this.  Are there examples of mixed-model
> > use-cases, where one DTD does not have mixed-content,
> > and a subordinate/contained DTD (ANY) does use mixed-content.
> 
> Yes, in my experience this is still quite common. For example, I'm 
> currently working on a system that relies on assembling fragments in
> different configurations to produce new products. The top level is 
> never mixed content - it's just a collection of elements that
> are DOCTYPEs when they're created. These elements certainly might 
> not themselves contain mixed content, but there is every possibility
> that an element further down the tree will.  Perhaps we're just looking
> at this from different perspectives, but I'd be surprised if
> you could substantially reduce the possibility of mixed content 
> without protest.

	Cool.  It appears as if mixed-content is, without a 
	doubt, "here to stay" (tm). And in this case, a <xhtml:plain>
        element is really going to be rather useless.  Thank you
        all for taking time to convince me that this is the case.  

Best,

;) Clark


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From xanimal at eudoramail.com  Wed Jan 12 16:57:14 2000
From: xanimal at eudoramail.com (L. C. Rees)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: Portable Site Information
Message-ID: <NIBMCJEIPKJBAAAA@shared1-mail.whowhere.com>

Portable Site Information is a language for creating websites that are portable between different web content platforms. Our intent is to not only transfer data and pages but the whole site. We originally created it for a web project we're involved in but we thought PSI might be useful outside our narrow scope. PSI is primarily indended to be a XML repository between NetObjects and Midgard but leave the site dependent on neither. We might make a PSI import and export filter later.

In the meantime we'd thought we'd toss it out into the world and see if the XML community thought it was any good for broader application.

A PSI glossary is available at 

http://psilib.sourceforge.net/psintro.html

The PSI-lite DTD is available at

http://psilib.sourceforge.net/psilite.dtd

Thanks,

Lynn Rees
Electric Thought Solutions



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 12 17:01:47 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> 1. Deprecate Parser, DocumentHandler, and AttributeList.

<snip/>

>  public interface XMLReader extends Parser
                                      ^^^^^^

If Parser and the rest are deprecated, then why do you want
XMLReader to extend Parser?

If I have an implementation which I want to support SAX1 as 
well as SAX2 then I can quite easily do,

  public class MyXMLReader
    implements XMLReader, Parser
  {
    // etc.
  }

If you're going to cut the cord, cut it good and proper.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan 12 18:08:09 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14460.49890.214394.317067@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin writes:
 > David Megginson wrote,
 > > 1. Deprecate Parser, DocumentHandler, and AttributeList.
 > 
 > <snip/>
 > 
 > >  public interface XMLReader extends Parser
 > 
 > If Parser and the rest are deprecated, then why do you want
 > XMLReader to extend Parser?

Comments?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 12 18:04:37 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E6@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

I think we need to clarify a couple of ambiguities here.
There are two sorts of interning being talked about wrt SAX2:
the standard java interning performed by String.intern(); and
other, parser specific, mechanisms for ensuring that Strings
which are String.equal() are also ==. I'll call the former
java-interning and the latter app-interning.

I have a strong objection to SAX requiring that Strings
returned from it's methods be java-interned. I'm not bothered 
about requiring app-interning so long as the guarantees are 
weakened a little.

First, the problem with java-interning. The way this is
implemented (in all the JVM's I've seen the sources of) is
via a hash-lookup of the pre-interned String in a JVM-internal
table. Because this table is shared by all threads in a JVM
this lookup has to be synchronized. The upshot is that there
is a huge potential for lock-contention where many threads
are interning simultaneously. This is bad enough on a single
processor machine, but could seriously clobber performance on
a multi-processor box. I, for one, want to use multiple SAX
parser instances driven from multiple threads on SMP machines,
and I'd be a tad distressed if java-interning were a SAX
requirement.

David Megginson has mentioned a way of reducing the overhead of
java-interning: here we have a parser-internal map from 
character sequences onto java-interned Strings ... if when you 
lookup on the char sequence you get non-null String back then 
that's the java-interned result; otherwise you convert the char 
sequence to a String, java-intern it and enter it in the table.

Whilst this might improve things a bit, it's still a 
performance hit: if the parser internal map is shared between 
parsers then we have the same contention problem back again 
(tho' this time in application code rather than the JVM); if it 
isn't (and hence is parser-/thread-local), then it has to be 
repopulated at least for each new parser instance, probably for 
each new document. Even tho' this only requires one java-intern 
for each distinct name it still provides plenty of 
opportunities for synchronization collisions.

App-interning could be fine tho' ... so long as it's defined in 
such a way that it can be implemented in a completely thread-
local way. Doing that means we'd have to,

1. Weaken the guarantees on the equivalence of String.equals() 
   and ==.

   To avoid synchronization issues we'd have to say that
   app-interning is done relative to a given parser call,

   ie. where foo and bar are both obtained via a callbacks from 
   the same call on XMLReader.parse()

     foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar

   but if foo and bar are not both obtained via callbacks from 
   the same call on XMLReader.parse()

     foo.equals(bar) does not imply foo == bar

2. Adopt something like Lars proposal of a StringInterner 
   interface.

   We'd need this to allow a SAX client to app-intern any
   literal Strings it wants to == test against in it's
   handlers.

This should get us what most people want: fast equality 
comparisons and shared representation within the implementation 
of a ContentHandler, but without any need for synchronization.

One point to bear in mind: none of the foregoing would 
_prevent_ a SAX implementor from using java-interning if they 
wanted to.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/



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From pctrips at yahoo.com  Wed Jan 12 18:43:57 2000
From: pctrips at yahoo.com (prakash tripathi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000112175756.15665.qmail@web117.yahoomail.com>

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan 12 19:08:43 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Wed, 12 Jan 2000 18:04:04 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E6@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3so039kh7.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> David Megginson has mentioned a way of reducing the overhead of
> java-interning: here we have a parser-internal map from 
> character sequences onto java-interned Strings ... 

This isn't just for reducing the cost of java interning: every
Java-based parser that actually has any kind of performance already
does this: otherwise, it could end up allocating tens of thousands of
new strings for even a medium-sized document.

[snip]

> Whilst this might improve things a bit, it's still a 
> performance hit: if the parser internal map is shared between 
> parsers then we have the same contention problem back again 

I haven't seen a parser that does it this way.

> (tho' this time in application code rather than the JVM); if it 
> isn't (and hence is parser-/thread-local), then it has to be 
> repopulated at least for each new parser instance, probably for 
> each new document. 

Once for every parser instance is usually sufficient.

> Even tho' this only requires one java-intern 
> for each distinct name it still provides plenty of 
> opportunities for synchronization collisions.

When you consider that even a long-ish document instance (say, 20,000
elements with an average of 3 attributes each) will likely contain
fewer than 50 unique element and attribute names (often fewer than
25), there are going to be too few invocations of
java.lang.String.intern to cause any serious problems.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From: 215250 at lecc.fedex.com (Keith Pendergrass 215250)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Wed Jan 12 19:42:51 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (James Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: [RE: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form]
Message-ID: <20000112194246.13531.qmail@ww183.netaddress.usa.net>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
>Miles Sabin writes:
 > David Megginson wrote,
 > > 1. Deprecate Parser, DocumentHandler, and AttributeList.
 > 
 > <snip/>
 > 
 > >  public interface XMLReader extends Parser
 > 
 > If Parser and the rest are deprecated, then why do you want
 > XMLReader to extend Parser?

> Comments?

While I share Miles' sentiments regarding legacy baggage, I believe David's
deprecation approach would promote a more rapid (and smoother) adoption of the
new interface (at least at the company where I work).

We have abstracted the 'get a parser' process so our app developers request a
parser based (primarily) on functionality rather than demanding a specific
implementation; we can swap parsers in and out with little or no impact to
existing applications as a consequence.

If I understand the new (proposed) interface properly, our current
getXXXParser methods can simply return XMLReader (after the SAX2 stuff is
plopped in) which still downcasts elegantly to those apps that still expect
Parser.  These apps can then be upgraded in a more leisurely fashion (during
the next update or bug fix cycle) while new apps can immediately begin using
the proper (XMLReader) interface. 

The same thing could of course be accomplished using adapter techniques but
that appears to result in an additional intermediate phase (and release cycle)
where adapters are injected until all apps are upgraded and then removed.

Regards,

Jim Layer





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From tyler at infinet.com  Wed Jan 12 19:47:45 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E6@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387CD9C8.FB0188B1@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> I think we need to clarify a couple of ambiguities here.
> There are two sorts of interning being talked about wrt SAX2:
> the standard java interning performed by String.intern(); and
> other, parser specific, mechanisms for ensuring that Strings
> which are String.equal() are also ==. I'll call the former
> java-interning and the latter app-interning.
>
> I have a strong objection to SAX requiring that Strings
> returned from it's methods be java-interned. I'm not bothered
> about requiring app-interning so long as the guarantees are
> weakened a little.
>
> First, the problem with java-interning. The way this is
> implemented (in all the JVM's I've seen the sources of) is
> via a hash-lookup of the pre-interned String in a JVM-internal
> table. Because this table is shared by all threads in a JVM
> this lookup has to be synchronized. The upshot is that there
> is a huge potential for lock-contention where many threads
> are interning simultaneously. This is bad enough on a single
> processor machine, but could seriously clobber performance on
> a multi-processor box. I, for one, want to use multiple SAX
> parser instances driven from multiple threads on SMP machines,
> and I'd be a tad distressed if java-interning were a SAX
> requirement.

This can be true in theory but in reality no one implements their parsers to make a call
to String.intern() every time they encounter a new String. Most parsers including the one
I wrote a long time ago, simply call String.intern() once for each new instance of a Name.
This interned string is then cached in a hashtable using a hashcode of the character
sequence of the string so that whenever you encounter another name you can quickly
calculate the hashcode of the Name and see if a matching interned string is in your
interned string table.

> David Megginson has mentioned a way of reducing the overhead of
> java-interning: here we have a parser-internal map from
> character sequences onto java-interned Strings ... if when you
> lookup on the char sequence you get non-null String back then
> that's the java-interned result; otherwise you convert the char
> sequence to a String, java-intern it and enter it in the table.
>
> Whilst this might improve things a bit, it's still a
> performance hit: if the parser internal map is shared between
> parsers then we have the same contention problem back again
> (tho' this time in application code rather than the JVM); if it
> isn't (and hence is parser-/thread-local), then it has to be

Having a shared map of interned strings among different parser instances is kinda dumb
anyways as synchronization would be necessary for each lookup. You might save a little
memory, but at the cost of performance of course.


> repopulated at least for each new parser instance, probably for
> each new document. Even tho' this only requires one java-intern
> for each distinct name it still provides plenty of
> opportunities for synchronization collisions.

Nope. Names in XML are highly redundant especially for Namespace prefixes. Also, even if
the number of calls to String.intern() were significant (which they rarely if ever are),
modern Java runtimes have lowered synchronization overhead to be small enough that you
don't really have to think about it much in terms of impacting performance anymore.

> App-interning could be fine tho' ... so long as it's defined in
> such a way that it can be implemented in a completely thread-
> local way. Doing that means we'd have to,
>
> 1. Weaken the guarantees on the equivalence of String.equals()
>    and ==.
>
>    To avoid synchronization issues we'd have to say that
>    app-interning is done relative to a given parser call,
>
>    ie. where foo and bar are both obtained via a callbacks from
>    the same call on XMLReader.parse()
>
>      foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar
>
>    but if foo and bar are not both obtained via callbacks from
>    the same call on XMLReader.parse()
>
>      foo.equals(bar) does not imply foo == bar

The entire purpose of testing for identity instead of equality is you don't need to invoke
any method whatsoever in your case statements. All you need to do is test for object
identity which is the fastest operation in Java next to integer comparisons.

> 2. Adopt something like Lars proposal of a StringInterner
>    interface.
>
>    We'd need this to allow a SAX client to app-intern any
>    literal Strings it wants to == test against in it's
>    handlers.

This would force my application code to use some special interface to populate my
constants rather than simply writing code that goes like:

if (name == "foo") {
 // Do something
}

> This should get us what most people want: fast equality
> comparisons and shared representation within the implementation
> of a ContentHandler, but without any need for synchronization.

Actually this method would likely be slower than just a plain string comparison using the
equals method, unless of course your internal parser string map is global and ends up in
effect just being a redundant form of the JVM string map. Your global string map would
likely have to be synchronized as well.

> One point to bear in mind: none of the foregoing would
> _prevent_ a SAX implementor from using java-interning if they
> wanted to.

Yes, but it would make it so that using Java-interning would be a pointless exercise at
that point because unless you maintain a map of interned strings in the actual parser,
using String.intern() does not help you at all. Unless the application is presented with
an already interned string for each Name, then using String.intern() will just be more
overhead and trouble than not using it at all.

Tyler


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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan 12 19:52:43 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: XMLReader extends Parser???
In-Reply-To: <20000112194246.13531.qmail@ww183.netaddress.usa.net>
References: <20000112194246.13531.qmail@ww183.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <14460.56164.800995.85747@localhost.localdomain>

James Layer writes:

 > If I understand the new (proposed) interface properly, our current
 > getXXXParser methods can simply return XMLReader (after the SAX2 stuff is
 > plopped in) which still downcasts elegantly to those apps that still expect
 > Parser.  These apps can then be upgraded in a more leisurely fashion (during
 > the next update or bug fix cycle) while new apps can immediately begin using
 > the proper (XMLReader) interface. 

Well, Miles got me thinking, and that's actually not quite the case --
XMLReader will be reporting its events through ContentHandler instead
of DocumentHandler, so casting down doesn't seem that useful after all
(unless your apps are interested only in DTDHandler and ErrorHandler
events); I guess that we do need an adapter instead.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 12 19:55:46 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: [RE: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form]
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EB@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

James Layer wrote,
> While I share Miles' sentiments regarding legacy baggage, I 
> believe David's deprecation approach would promote a more 
> rapid (and smoother) adoption of the new interface (at least 
> at the company where I work).
>
> We have abstracted the 'get a parser' process so our app 
> developers request a parser based (primarily) on 
> functionality rather than demanding a specific
> implementation;

I don't think dropping 'extends Parser' should impact on this
in any really significant way. Intially I would expect almost
all parsers to implement both XMLReader _and_ Parser for SAX1
compatibility, so you'd have a fair breathing space during 
which casting from the former to the latter would be safe.

Actually, one of my worries is that having XMLReader extend
a deprecated interface will cause javac/jikes/javadoc to spit
out warnings or errors ... not a big deal, perhaps, but a bit
of a pain (I'm one of those people who habitually set the
'treat warnings as errors' flag on all my tools ;-).

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 12 20:07:08 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Tyler Baker wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote,
> > [snip: table mapping to intern'd Strings]
> > Even tho' this only requires one java-intern for each 
> > distinct name it still provides plenty of opportunities for 
> > synchronization collisions.
>
> Nope. Names in XML are highly redundant especially for 
> Namespace prefixes. Also, even if the number of calls to 
> String.intern() were significant (which they rarely if ever 
> are), modern Java runtimes have lowered synchronization 
> overhead to be small enough that you don't really have to 
> think about it much in terms of impacting performance 
> anymore.

I think you're making two assumptions that don't always hold.
Not all java xml applications are one shot, single doctype:
some continuously parse multiple documents of a variety of 
doctypes in multiple threads. There's not necessarily _any_
particular upper bound on the number of distinct element and
attribute names that might be encountered. So there could be
continual contention for the JVM's intern table.

And I think you're assuming a single processor JVM. The
synchronization overhead picture is *very* different on multi-
processors.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan 12 20:36:14 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387CE5A9.B6C906CB@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> > > [snip: table mapping to intern'd Strings]
> > > Even tho' this only requires one java-intern for each
> > > distinct name it still provides plenty of opportunities for
> > > synchronization collisions.

So Miles, if you prefer the occasional synchronization issue
to the routine method invocation overhead, use a parser that
obliges you.  (Yes, I'm assuming SAX2 doesn't mandate any
interning, just exposes whether or not it's done.)

Though I daresay you'll find that the synchronization isn't
usually measurable, while your evidently preferred alternative
(lots of String.equals calls) will consistently show up as a
performance problem.  At least that's been the case when I've
made such measurements.

- Dave

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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Wed Jan 12 20:34:26 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751E5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <14460.49890.214394.317067@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387CE5A4.44460DF2@trantor.de>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> Miles Sabin writes:
>  > David Megginson wrote,
>  > > 1. Deprecate Parser, DocumentHandler, and AttributeList.
>  >
>  > <snip/>
>  >
>  > >  public interface XMLReader extends Parser
>  >
>  > If Parser and the rest are deprecated, then why do you want
>  > XMLReader to extend Parser?
> 
> Comments?

Probably nobody wants to see deprecation messages when 
compiling XMLReader, so cut it off. 

Best regards

Stefan

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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Wed Jan 12 20:36:30 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (James Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: [XMLReader extends Parser???]
Message-ID: <20000112203625.15487.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:

>Well, Miles got me thinking, and that's actually not quite the case --
>XMLReader will be reporting its events through ContentHandler instead
>of DocumentHandler, so casting down doesn't seem that useful after all
>(unless your apps are interested only in DTDHandler and ErrorHandler
>events); I guess that we do need an adapter instead.

Ack! I must have had my lunch bag over my head while engaging in delusions of
ContentHandler extending DocumentHandler (there's a mess!). I also completely
missed the fact that I could simply sport a new method(s) of my own for the
new interface and deprecate and/or adapt the old as required.

Pardon please while I leap inelegantly to the other side of the fence. ;)

Regards,

Jim Layer



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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 12 20:44:21 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000112124139.01424c30@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:06 PM 1/12/00 -0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>And I think you're assuming a single processor JVM. The
>synchronization overhead picture is *very* different on multi-
>processors.

Well yeah, but this pre-intern string table is internal to the parser,
and I think XML parsers are perforce single-threaded, because XML
docs are.  Or am I missing something? -T.

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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Wed Jan 12 21:04:16 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (James Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: [RE: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form]
Message-ID: <20000112210412.16395.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:

>I don't think dropping 'extends Parser' should impact on this
>in any really significant way. Intially I would expect almost
>all parsers to implement both XMLReader _and_ Parser for SAX1
>compatibility, so you'd have a fair breathing space during 
>which casting from the former to the latter would be safe.

>Actually, one of my worries is that having XMLReader extend
>a deprecated interface will cause javac/jikes/javadoc to spit
>out warnings or errors ... not a big deal, perhaps, but a bit
>of a pain (I'm one of those people who habitually set the
>'treat warnings as errors' flag on all my tools ;-).

In addition to a wide miss on the downcast thing (as David pointed out), I
also forgot about deprecation warnings across the board. Better for the clean
break, new methods on my end, and I confine any deprecation (forced by my
logic) to the old stuff.

Now I'll confine the few synapses I apparently have running to getting my list
replies in context... ;)

Regards,

Jim Layer




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From tyler at infinet.com  Wed Jan 12 21:31:53 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EC@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387CF22E.4F616C9F@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> Tyler Baker wrote,
> > Miles Sabin wrote,
> > > [snip: table mapping to intern'd Strings]
> > > Even tho' this only requires one java-intern for each
> > > distinct name it still provides plenty of opportunities for
> > > synchronization collisions.
> >
> > Nope. Names in XML are highly redundant especially for
> > Namespace prefixes. Also, even if the number of calls to
> > String.intern() were significant (which they rarely if ever
> > are), modern Java runtimes have lowered synchronization
> > overhead to be small enough that you don't really have to
> > think about it much in terms of impacting performance
> > anymore.
>
> I think you're making two assumptions that don't always hold.
> Not all java xml applications are one shot, single doctype:
> some continuously parse multiple documents of a variety of
> doctypes in multiple threads. There's not necessarily _any_
> particular upper bound on the number of distinct element and
> attribute names that might be encountered. So there could be
> continual contention for the JVM's intern table.

Well of course there is never an upper bound for the number of distinct element names or
attribute names in a document, but in general you usually have exponentially more elements
and attributes than you do distinct element or attribute names. Trying to satisfy a
condition that will never happen in the real world of how XML will be used, is exactly the
same wrong mode of thinking that I think led to how "Namespaces in XML" came about. The
designers I feel tried to satisfy all of these hypothetical conditions, without ever
thinking about the real world implications. This is what you are doing here which is
laudable, but I don't think really has anything to do with real world use of XML.

> And I think you're assuming a single processor JVM. The
> synchronization overhead picture is *very* different on multi-
> processors.

Synchronization is synchronization. For most documents, making a call to String.intern()
50-100 times in a 100KB document is a lot less expensive than doing:

if (x.equals("foo") {

}
else if (x.equals("bar") {

}
etc...

As opposed to:

if (x == "foo") {

}
else if (x == "bar) {

}
etc.

Calling the equals method can get expensive for large case statements.

Tyler


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From JeremyK at bsquare.com  Thu Jan 13 00:57:08 2000
From: JeremyK at bsquare.com (Jeremy Kercheval)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: XML Schemas (long winded)
Message-ID: <75514FC5ECC8D2118C8D00A0C9ED54DB73703F@OBCMAIL1>

I am trying to create an XML Schema based on the XML-Data
<http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/NOTE-XML-data-0105/> note submitted to the W3C.
I am using the MS XMLDOM interfaces.  My question is this - I am trying to
limit the content in certain situations so I have created a simple schema as
follows
------Schema----
<Schema name="myschema" xmlns="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xml-data"
                        xmlns:dt="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes">
	<AttributeType name="Flags" dt:type="int"/>

	<ElementType name="FileName" content="textOnly" model="closed">
		<attribute type="Flags"/>
	</ElementType>

	<ElementType name="Files" content="eltOnly" model="closed">
		<element type="FileName" minOccurs="1" maxOccurs="*"/>
	</ElementType>

	<ElementType name="Package" content="eltOnly" model="closed">
		<element type="Files" minOccurs="1" maxOccurs="1"/>
	</ElementType>
</Schema>
-------------------------
Now, based on the content an model shouldn't FileName be constrained such
that I can only have elements (FileName) in the Files tag so that the
following excerpt would be illegal...
...
<Files>This should be NON-VALID
	<FileName flags="1">Test.doc</FileName>
...

And if I am right, does anyone know how to tell MS's XMLDOM to validate
using the schema.  I have included the following line at the top of my xml
file -
<Package xmlns:data="x-schema:updateSchema.xml">


Jeremy Kercheval
Senior Software Design Engineer
BSQUARE Corporation.
425.519.5252
mailto:jeremyk@bsquare.com


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From Nigel.Hutchison at softwareag.com  Thu Jan 13 08:40:19 2000
From: Nigel.Hutchison at softwareag.com (Hutchison, Nigel)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: External Entites Usage
Message-ID: <2339B88D6AA6D31187A80008C7E6F672193F0B@daemsg01.software-ag.de>

I was a meeting the other day and someone made the following statement.

"External references in entities are highly depreciated and hopefully seldom
used."

This seems a bit extreme to me.

Will X-LINK make External Entities redundant in the near future.?
Any views on this topic?

regards

Nigel W.O Hutchison
Chief Architect 
Software AG
Uhlandstr 12, D-64279 Darmstadt, Germany
+49 6151 92 1207


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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Thu Jan 13 08:52:09 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000112124139.01424c30@pop.intergate.ca>
References: <3.0.32.20000112124139.01424c30@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <m34sci8ibv.fsf@ifi.uio.no>


* Miles Sabin
|
| And I think you're assuming a single processor JVM. The
| synchronization overhead picture is *very* different on multi-
| processors.

* Tim Bray
| 
| Well yeah, but this pre-intern string table is internal to the parser,
| and I think XML parsers are perforce single-threaded, because XML
| docs are.  Or am I missing something? 

The case where you have different threads parsing different documents?
The JVM interning table is shared, so...

--Lars M.


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From P.Johnston at archives.gla.ac.uk  Thu Jan 13 10:32:09 2000
From: P.Johnston at archives.gla.ac.uk (Pete Johnston)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: External Entites Usage
In-Reply-To: <2339B88D6AA6D31187A80008C7E6F672193F0B@daemsg01.software-ag.de>
Message-ID: <200001131031.KAA30504@dns1.arts.gla.ac.uk>

> I was a meeting the other day and someone made the following statement.
> 
> "External references in entities are highly depreciated and hopefully seldom
> used."

There was a very useful discussion of this topic on the list a couple 
of months ago. You might like to have a look at the list archive for 
Nov 1999 under the thread:

external parsed entites (was: A unique ID question ?)

and its predecessor

A unique ID question ?





Pete Johnston
Glasgow University Archives & Business Records Centre

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 10:57:46 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Brownell wrote,
> So Miles, if you prefer the occasional synchronization issue
> to the routine method invocation overhead, use a parser that
> obliges you.  (Yes, I'm assuming SAX2 doesn't mandate any
> interning, just exposes whether or not it's done.)

Well, if your assumption is correct, then fine. But I rather
got the impression that some people wanted SAX2 to make
guarantees about Strings being returned java-interned.

> Though I daresay you'll find that the synchronization isn't
> usually measurable, while your evidently preferred 
> alternative (lots of String.equals calls) will consistently 
> show up as a performance problem.  At least that's been the 
> case when I've made such measurements.

Except that String.intern() isn't the _only_ way of making
foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar (in particular contexts, as
opposed to across the whole JVM).

I use thread-local app-interning and ==, or no interning at all 
and String.equals() ... as Arkin noted the overhead in the 
latter case isn't too bad with a decent JIT.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 10:57:05 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2 Namespace Support
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "05 Jan 2000 10:12:59 -0500"
References: <John Aldridge's message of "Tue, 04 Jan 2000 18:22:50 +0000"> <3.0.6.32.20000104182250.009d3590@mailhost> <3.0.6.32.20000105112151.00bb7820@mailhost> <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <uu2kidytp.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

David> David Megginson <URL:mailto:david@megginson.com>

0> In article <m3r9fwtuv8.fsf@localhost.localdomain>, David wrote:

David> In principle (the principle of least surprise), it's very bad
David> behaviour for two objects to be == in C++ or equals() in Java
David> if any of their publicly-accessible fields differ.  Think of
David> sets, for example.

You could follow the example of java.lang.String and define equals() to
compare all public data (as usual), and define an additional method
equalsIgnorePrefix() which doesn't.  The problem with this is that
hashCode() has to be consistent with equals(), but sometimes you want
to use a hashCode() based on equalsIgnorePrefix().  I've solved this in
the past (for a case-insensitive String class) by making a wrapper that
defines equals() in terms of equalsIgnoreCase(), and a corresponding
hashCode().  I'm not sure I like this for SAX2 though, as we should be
making the common case - ignoring the prefix - the simplest.

public class QName {
  public String getPrefix();
  public String getUri();
  public String getLocal();

  public int hashCode(); // based on prefix, URI, local
  public boolean hashCodeIgnorePrefix(Object o); // based on URI, local

  public boolean equals(Object o); // based on prefix, URI, local
  public boolean equalsIgnorePrefix(Object o); // based on URI, local
}


public class QNameIgnorePrefix {
  private QName name;
  public QNameIgnorePrefix(QName name) { this.name = name; }

  public String getUri() { return name.getUri(); }
  public String getLocal() { return name.getLocal(); }

  public int hashCode() { return name.hashCodeIgnorePrefix(); }
  public boolean equals(Object o); { return name.equalsIgnorePrefix(o); }
}

-- 


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 11:03:14 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EF@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Tyler Baker wrote,
> For most documents, making a call to String.intern()
> 50-100 times in a 100KB document is a lot less expensive than 
> doing:
>
> if (x.equals("foo") {
> 
> }
> else if (x.equals("bar") {
>
> }
> etc...
> 
> As opposed to:
>
> if (x == "foo") {
> 
> }
> else if (x == "bar) {
>
>}
> etc.
>
> Calling the equals method can get expensive for large case > > statements.

Sure ... so Don't Do That (tm) ...

If you've got what's effectively a huge case statement then
use a lookup table ... a HashMap or a trie of some sort or
another. Either of those will outperform a large number of
chained String.equals() calls or == tests.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From flood at spark.net.gr  Thu Jan 13 11:34:47 2000
From: flood at spark.net.gr (flood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: convert XML to MsAccess
Message-ID: <002201bf5db9$f2df0be0$486342c3@eymenidhs>

Hello, 

 I would like to know the simplest way to import the information contained in
 a file XML to an Access database... Are there any scripts (e.g) in VB known?

 Thank you for your answers
Kostas
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 13:57:07 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2: ParserFactory
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Whether or not XMLReader extends Parser, it looks as tho' this
utility class is going to have to be replaced for SAX2. Seeing
as we've got this opportunity, I'd like to propose we use an
alternative (or at least supplementary) mechanism for
specifying an XMLReader implementation class.

The current mechanism is to have the org.xml.sax.parser System
property specify the name of a Parser implementing class for
ParserFactory to instantiate. This works fine, but has a
couple of drawbacks. First, it's only possible for an
application to bind to one parser implementation using this
technique ... applications that want to use more than one
have to specify at least one of the parser classes explicitly. 
Second, it requires some external configuration: it isn't just 
enough to put the parser implementation on the CLASSPATH for 
the parser to be made available.

There is another mechanism that avoids both of these 
(admittedly minor) problems. The general idea can be found
in the description of the new Service Provider mechanism
found in the JDK 1.3 beta release,

  http://java.sun.com/products/jdk/1.3/docs/guide/jar/jar.html

We can't use that directly (two reasons: we want to support
pre 1.3, and in any case in 1.3 we'd have to reference a class
in sun.misc.*) but we can do the same sort of thing.

Here's how it works (sorry if this is a bit cryptic). Rather 
than using a System property we use one or more provider files 
(these are just text files somewhere on the CLASSPATH which can 
be accessed via ClassLoader.getSystemResources()) which contain 
the names of the concrete classes which implement XMLReader. An
XMLReaderFactory could return an Iterator or Enumeration over
the available implementation classes (more likely over some
meta-information providing access to the features of the
various installed parsers so an application can choose if
there's more than one) and allow an app to select and
instantiate one.

The neat thing about this is that if we choose a well known
location on the CLASSPATH to put the provider files it'll be
possible to bundle a parser implementation along with it's
own provider file, making it possible to configure an app to
use it merely by making sure that the parser is on the
CLASSPATH. For example, suppose we put the provider files at
org/xml/sax2/XMLReader.providers, then I could distribute
a jar file of my parser that looked like this,

  com
    cromwellmedia
      markup
        xml
          NonValidatingXMLReaderImpl.class
          ValidatingXMLReaderImpl.class
  org
    xml
      sax2
        XMLReader.providers

where XMLReader.providers contains the lines,

  com.cromwellmedia.markup.xml.NonValidatingXMLReaderImpl
  com.cromwellmedia.markup.xml.ValidatingXMLReaderImpl

An XMLReaderFactory would be able to reference my providers
file via ClassLoader.getSystemResources() and hence
instantiate (or provide meta-information about) my two parsers.

Note that this mechanism is compatible with there also being
someone else's parser(s) being on the CLASSPATH too. So long
as that parser is in a separate jar file (or in a separate
class tree) ClassLoader.getSystemResources() will be able to
locate both provider files, so an XMLReaderFactory would be
able to amalgamate the files and offer access to all the
parsers on the CLASSPATH.

One complication tho'. ClassLoader.getSystemResources() (nb.
plural) is new in JDK 1.2. With a bit of fiddling about we can
get this mechanism to work with 1.1 as well, but with the
limitation that multiple provider files can't be automatically
amalgamated (ie. if you had more than one parser you'd have
to stitch the two provider files together and put the manually
joined file at the front of the CLASSPATH).

Oh, and there's no reason why we couldn't also support an
org.xml.sax2.parser System property as well.

If there's any interest I can probably find the time to put
together a sample implementation.

Incidentally, I'd really like to see a mechanism of this sort
used for bootstrapping into a DOM implementation.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Thu Jan 13 14:30:56 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:10 2004
Subject: SAX2: ParserFactory
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F5@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001701bf5dd2$c20fe480$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> An XMLReaderFactory could return an Iterator or Enumeration over
> the available implementation classes (more likely over some
> meta-information providing access to the features of the
> various installed parsers so an application can choose if
> there's more than one) and allow an app to select and
> instantiate one.

Why not have the Factory method accept the criteria, 
and return an implementation directly, rather than forcing 
the application to iterate over them?

In the case where there are several parsers with the same
properties, it will either matter to the application - in which the 
preference will be hard-coded (not good) as it will have to select 
it from the list, or it won't matter, so returning the 
first match is good enough.

If there are two parsers with the exact same features its likely 
that there will be other differentiators which can't be 
checked in code. e.g. which is the fastest. 

> The neat thing about this is that if we choose a well known
> location on the CLASSPATH to put the provider files it'll be
> possible to bundle a parser implementation along with it's
> own provider file.

Why not have the equivalent of a BeanInfo file for the parser.
Just add the package names to the XMLReaderFactory's property 
files and the properties can be checked at runtime. This 
seems less complex. Loading and parsing a file seems like more 
overhead than instantiating a BeanInfo equivalent and querying 
it directly.

Anyway, doesn't the JAXP package address some of these issues?
http://web2.java.sun.com/xml/download.html

Cheers,

L.

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 14:49:57 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: SAX2: ParserFactory
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F7@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Leigh Dodds wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote,
> > An XMLReaderFactory could return an Iterator or Enumeration
> > over the available implementation classes (more likely over 
> > some meta-information providing access to the features of 
> > the various installed parsers so an application can choose 
> > if there's more than one) and allow an app to select and
> > instantiate one.
>
> Why not have the Factory method accept the criteria, 
> and return an implementation directly, rather than forcing 
> the application to iterate over them?

That'd be another way of doing it. I'm not sure which I prefer.

> In the case where there are several parsers with the same
> properties, it will either matter to the application - in
> which the preference will be hard-coded (not good) as it will 
> have to select it from the list, or it won't matter, so 
> returning the first match is good enough.

Agreed.

> If there are two parsers with the exact same features its 
> likely that there will be other differentiators which can't be 
> checked in code. e.g. which is the fastest. 

If there are parser features which aren't queriable via the SAX 
API then you still have the option of directly instantiating a 
particular concrete XMLReader implementation.

> Why not have the equivalent of a BeanInfo file for the parser.
> Just add the package names to the XMLReaderFactory's property 
> files and the properties can be checked at runtime. This 
> seems less complex. Loading and parsing a file seems like more 
> overhead than instantiating a BeanInfo equivalent and querying 
> it directly.

BeanInfo strikes me as a bit heavyweight. Maybe my description
made the proposal sound a bit more complex than it really is.
For most parser implementors all that would be involved would
be sticking the fully qualified class name of their parser
into a text file located at org/xml/sax2/XMLReader.providers.
As to parsing, it's not a lot more than reading a line of text
from a text file and invoking Class.forName().

> Anyway, doesn't the JAXP package address some of these issues?
> http://web2.java.sun.com/xml/download.html

I don't see that this is very different from the current scheme 
in SAX1. Sure, they've added another layer of indirection: the
javax.xml.parsers.SAXParserFactory System property names a 
factory implementation class rather than a parser implementation 
class. But you'd still have to set the property in the 
environment, and you still wouldn't be able to use that 
mechanism to bind to more than one parser.

Hmm ... I guess you'd also have to implement their
SAXParserFactory interface too: nothing like that is necessary 
in SAX1 nor would it be under my proposal.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Thu Jan 13 15:10:55 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: External Entites Usage
In-Reply-To: <200001131031.KAA30504@dns1.arts.gla.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131007511.25035-100000@rksystems.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Pete Johnston wrote:

> > I was a meeting the other day and someone made the following statement.
> > 
> > "External references in entities are highly depreciated and hopefully seldom
> > used."
> 
> There was a very useful discussion of this topic on the list a couple 
> of months ago. You might like to have a look at the list archive for 
> Nov 1999 under the thread:
> 
> external parsed entites (was: A unique ID question ?)
> 
> and its predecessor
> 
> A unique ID question ?
> 

Thanks for the tip.  Unfortunately the search engine seems to be broken:

    Error, cannot find a usable cache file! 
    Glimpse error
    The search parameters caused an error in the call to Glimpse. 
    Please try your search again with different parameters. 
    Output from Glimpse: 
        /opt/local/glimpse-4.1-bin-Solaris-2.5.1-SPARC/bin/glimpse:
        cannot open for writing: /tmp/.glimpse_tmp.6095, errno=13

The only parameters I supplied were "unique ID question" (as the string
to search for) which seem to be the only reasonable parameter to use for
this thread.

If the maintainer of the archives follows the list, please suggest a way
to submit a search for a thread which does not trigger this failure.

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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From prasadm at crt.com  Thu Jan 13 15:49:36 2000
From: prasadm at crt.com (prasadm@crt.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....
Message-ID: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6629@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>

Hi All,

We are currently in search of a tool on the web which accepts an SQL query
as the input and gives us back an XML file containing all the results with
the 
tags representing the column names of the table being queried.

One such we found is Oracle's XSQL Servlet, but using this we can make only
connections to Oracle database. What if we want to connect to a different
database
like say SQL Server, MS Access, etc.

Another such tool we found is IBM's XML Lightweight Extractor, but this
requires the
query to be specified in a different manner i.e. a "xxx.dtdsa" file must
contain the dtd
of the resulting xml document and also the relationship between the tables
used in the
query. This seems to be of somewhat complex. Although IBM's XLE tool
provides
access to any database (viz. Oracle, DB2, etc) specifying the query in the 
required dtdsa format becomes difficult.

Thanks for your time. If anyone knows of any tool, that takes a SQL
query(select) as its
input and returns an XML document, please share it with me.

Thanks in Advance,

Prasad M
Home:- 	630-595-0642
Work:-	312-974-6543
prasadm@crt.com <mailto:prasadm@crt.com> 



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From wchang at nist.gov  Thu Jan 13 17:33:14 2000
From: wchang at nist.gov (Wo Chang, x3439)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: relation between CSS & XSL
Message-ID: <200001131730.MAA29667@ion.antd.nist.gov>


Can someone give me a top level differences between
CSS and XSL?  I know the CSS3 is under development,
which will include number of new features (user 
interface enhancements, SVG, behavioral extensions,
etc.).  And the XSL consists of XSLT and vocabulary
for specifying formatting semantics.  But is there
any relationship between the two?

Any advice/pointer would be greatly appreciated.

Best regards,

--Wo Chang


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 13 17:39:30 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387E0DB8.78CAE451@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote,
> > So Miles, if you prefer the occasional synchronization issue
> > to the routine method invocation overhead, use a parser that
> > obliges you.  (Yes, I'm assuming SAX2 doesn't mandate any
> > interning, just exposes whether or not it's done.)
> 
> Well, if your assumption is correct, then fine. But I rather
> got the impression that some people wanted SAX2 to make
> guarantees about Strings being returned java-interned.

Some People want all sorts of bizarre things.
In fact, I don't trust Some People at all ... ;-)

Sanity must at some point reign; demanding that all
SAX parsers do something that's not essential (only
very desirable in some common cases) would be unwise.


> > Though I daresay you'll find that the synchronization isn't
> > usually measurable, while your evidently preferred
> > alternative (lots of String.equals calls) will consistently
> > show up as a performance problem.  At least that's been the
> > case when I've made such measurements.
> 
> Except that String.intern() isn't the _only_ way of making
> foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar (in particular contexts, as
> opposed to across the whole JVM).

It's the only way to ensure it's so if foo is a string literal,
as is rather common usage.

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 13 17:42:18 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: External Entites Usage
References: <200001131031.KAA30504@dns1.arts.gla.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <387E0E6F.A7E642F2@pacbell.net>

Pete Johnston wrote:
> 
> > I was a meeting the other day and someone made the following statement.
> >
> > "External references in entities are highly depreciated and hopefully seldom
> > used."
> 
> There was a very useful discussion of this topic on the list a couple
> of months ago. You might like to have a look at the list archive ...

... and for the record, despite some strong advocacy on the
part of some voices, many of us remained unconvinced.

Think of it as a personal style issue.  You can abuse any
tool, even a chainsaw.  Use != abuse.

- Dave

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 13 17:59:03 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: External Entites Usage
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000113095344.0144de40@pop.intergate.ca>

At 09:40 AM 1/13/00 +0100, Hutchison, Nigel wrote:
>"External references in entities are highly depreciated and hopefully seldom
>used."
>
>This seems a bit extreme to me.

They've never been officially deprecated, but on the other hand there
are a lot of people who hate them.  On another hand, there are a lot
of common tasks in the publishing world where they are awfully useful.

>Will X-LINK make External Entities redundant in the near future.?
>Any views on this topic?

XLink will *not* replace external entities in my opinion 
Note the existence of the XInclude proposal on w3.org/TR - it is
explicitly designed to do what entities do.
-Tim


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 13 18:05:11 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F9@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Brownell wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote,
> > Except that String.intern() isn't the _only_ way of 
> > making foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar (in particular 
> > contexts, as opposed to across the whole JVM).
>
> It's the only way to ensure it's so if foo is a string 
> literal, as is rather common usage.

I don't follow. You're surely not suggesting that

  foo == "literal".intern()

is faster than,

  foo.equals("literal")

are you?

I assume not, but then I don't really see your point. It'd be
easy enough to pre-populate an app-intern map with all the 
literals you were interested in. Granted, getting any benefits 
from this in a ContentHandler (as opposed to in a parser 
implementation) would mean we'd need something akin to Lars 
StringInterner interface to do the pre-populating.

Anyhow, maybe the waters are getting a bit muddied. I'm
assuming that all parsers will do interning of one sort or
another internally. The issue for me is how much of that gets
exposed via the SAX API. I don't want java-interning exposed,
because that means my parser has no option but to use
String.intern().

OTOH, _if_ the consensus is that some sort of interning must be 
exposed for the convenience of ContentHandler implementors then 
I'll go along with it, just so long as it's specified in such a 
way that it can be implemented in a completely thread-local 
way.

But I'd much prefer it if the SAX API didn't expose any
interning behaviour at all. I think we agree on that?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Thu Jan 13 18:13:04 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6629@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
Message-ID: <004701bf5df2$92246230$3b652382@us.oracle.com>

| One such we found is Oracle's XSQL Servlet, but using this we can make
only
| connections to Oracle database. What if we want to connect to a different
| database like say SQL Server, MS Access, etc.

Oracle XSQL Pages and the Oracle XSQL Servlet work
just fine with any database that you have a JDBC
driver for, not only Oracle.

It also works with any servlet engine.

Thanks.

_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team

----- Original Message -----
From: <prasadm@crt.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 7:44 AM
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....




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From cox_andy at bah.com  Thu Jan 13 18:26:53 2000
From: cox_andy at bah.com (Cox Andy)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: relation between CSS & XSL
In-Reply-To: <200001131730.MAA29667@ion.antd.nist.gov>
Message-ID: <003b01bf5df4$07e429a0$20aa509c@bah.com>

Take a look the W3C site on style sheets [http://www.w3.org/Style/]. There
is a (short) article [http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS-vs-XSL] dealing with your
question, but much other info as well.

Andy

| -----Original Message-----
| From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
| Wo Chang, x3439
| Sent: Thursday, 13 January 2000 12:30 PM
| To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk; xsl-list@mulberrytech.com
| Subject: relation between CSS & XSL
|
|
|
| Can someone give me a top level differences between
| CSS and XSL?  I know the CSS3 is under development,
| which will include number of new features (user
| interface enhancements, SVG, behavioral extensions,
| etc.).  And the XSL consists of XSLT and vocabulary
| for specifying formatting semantics.  But is there
| any relationship between the two?
|
| Any advice/pointer would be greatly appreciated.
|
| Best regards,
|
| --Wo Chang
|
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
| CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for
| transfer to OASIS.
|
|


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From psimonse at jcpenney.com  Thu Jan 13 18:44:03 2000
From: psimonse at jcpenney.com (Paul H Simonsen)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6629@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
Message-ID: <387E1D0C.7179E0BE@jcpenney.com>

Try DB2XML. It can be found at
http://www.informatik.fh-wiesbaden.de/~turau/DB2XML/index.html .

prasadm@crt.com wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> We are currently in search of a tool on the web which accepts an SQL query
> as the input and gives us back an XML file containing all the results with
> the
> tags representing the column names of the table being queried.
>
> One such we found is Oracle's XSQL Servlet, but using this we can make only
> connections to Oracle database. What if we want to connect to a different
> database
> like say SQL Server, MS Access, etc.
>
> Another such tool we found is IBM's XML Lightweight Extractor, but this
> requires the
> query to be specified in a different manner i.e. a "xxx.dtdsa" file must
> contain the dtd
> of the resulting xml document and also the relationship between the tables
> used in the
> query. This seems to be of somewhat complex. Although IBM's XLE tool
> provides
> access to any database (viz. Oracle, DB2, etc) specifying the query in the
> required dtdsa format becomes difficult.
>
> Thanks for your time. If anyone knows of any tool, that takes a SQL
> query(select) as its
> input and returns an XML document, please share it with me.
>
> Thanks in Advance,
>
> Prasad M
> Home:-  630-595-0642
> Work:-  312-974-6543
> prasadm@crt.com <mailto:prasadm@crt.com>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.

--
Paul



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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 13 19:38:05 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000113113532.014a0e60@pop.intergate.ca>

At 06:04 PM 1/13/00 -0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>Anyhow, maybe the waters are getting a bit muddied. I'm
>assuming that all parsers will do interning of one sort or
>another internally. The issue for me is how much of that gets
>exposed via the SAX API. I don't want java-interning exposed,
>because that means my parser has no option but to use
>String.intern().

Yes.   Given that *every* credible parser does this, and that it's
a major convenience for programmers using the API to be able to compare
strings with ==, there is at some level an argument that we ought to
expose this fact.

I'd go further; based on having written a parser, it seems to me that
the only sane tactic is for the parser to use java.intern(), but only
once for each unique name, with some sort of internal char[] or
equivalent table.  If this is true, it's an even stronger argument for 
just saying "element types and attribute names coming out of the
parser are intern()ed, period".  

However, I would be totally against making this an optional feature
that the parser can decline to support, because then the value-add 
to the SAX customer goes down the toilet IMHO.

>But I'd much prefer it if the SAX API didn't expose any
>interning behaviour at all. I think we agree on that?

I think we're *arguing* about that... I don't detect agreement yet. -T.

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Thu Jan 13 20:23:40 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000113113532.014a0e60@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:
> Yes.   Given that *every* credible parser does this, and that it's
> a major convenience for programmers using the API to be able to compare
> strings with ==, there is at some level an argument that we ought to
> expose this fact.

There are going to be lots of server side filter
architectures using the SAX interface which may
not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser" 
interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter".
And I'd go so far to say that in a few years, 
99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!

So, requiring the authors of those emitters
to be aware of Java "intern" is streaching it.
I think this is really a compiler optimization
issue and should not be part of the interface.
A java compiler could, for instance, take:

  lhs.equals(rhs)

and compile it as

  ( lhs == rhs | lhs.equals(rhs) )


Best,

Clark


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 13 20:36:09 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F9@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387E3727.1E7392E4@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote,
> > Miles Sabin wrote,
> > > Except that String.intern() isn't the _only_ way of
> > > making foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar (in particular
> > > contexts, as opposed to across the whole JVM).
> >
> > It's the only way to ensure it's so if foo is a string
> > literal, as is rather common usage.
> 
> I don't follow. You're surely not suggesting that
> 
>   foo == "literal".intern()
> 
> is faster than,
> 
>   foo.equals("literal")
> 
> are you?

That's a conclusion you could draw.  I suppose that in some
cases a compiler might optimize

	String	foo = ...;
	boolean b = foo.equals ("literal");

so that the assignment to "b" doesn't invoke equals(), and
just uses "==", but not only would that be more aggressive
than I think most of them are, but then "equals" isn't going
to be invoked so the question is moot!

Literals are already interned.  It's in the language spec.
Look at the javadoc for java.lang.String.intern () ...

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 13 20:41:39 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <387E3871.B2C27224@pacbell.net>

"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> 
> There are going to be lots of server side filter
> architectures using the SAX interface which may
> not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser"
> interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter".
> And I'd go so far to say that in a few years,
> 99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!

I sort of hope so.  XML data models shouldn't be
forced to stop right above parsing; it's not always
appropriate.  It should certainly be possible to
assemble pipelines of components which may optionally
be sourced by a parser, but don't need to be.


> A java compiler could, for instance, take:
> 
>   lhs.equals(rhs)
> 
> and compile it as
> 
>   ( lhs == rhs | lhs.equals(rhs) )

Any implementation of "equals" that doesn't
first test for "==" has serious problems; and
I include the String.equals implementations
up to JDK 1.1.6 or so when I say that.

Even so, method invocation is never free, and it's
appropriate to ensure that it can be (sometimes)
eliminated directly in the source code.

- Dave

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Thu Jan 13 20:48:10 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <387E3871.B2C27224@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131547400.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> > A java compiler could, for instance, take:
> > 
> >   lhs.equals(rhs)
> > 
> > and compile it as
> > 
> >   ( lhs == rhs | lhs.equals(rhs) )
> 
> Any implementation of "equals" that doesn't
> first test for "==" has serious problems; and
> I include the String.equals implementations
> up to JDK 1.1.6 or so when I say that.
> 
> Even so, method invocation is never free, and it's
> appropriate to ensure that it can be (sometimes)
> eliminated directly in the source code.

If I remember the rules, if the first member of
an alternation is true, then the second member
is not evaluated.  Thus, the above would not
incur a method invocation unless the strings
were not interned.

But, in general, I dig the point. 

Clark


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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Thu Jan 13 20:58:09 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)   
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131553080.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, David Brownell wrote:
> "Clark C. Evans" wrote: 
>> There are going to be lots of server side filter 
>> architectures using the SAX interface which may 
>> not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser" 
>> interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter". 
>> And I'd go so far to say that in a few years, 
>> 99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!
>
> I sort of hope so.  XML data models shouldn't be forced to stop right
> above parsing; it's not always appropriate.  It should certainly be
> possible to assemble pipelines of components which may optionally
> be sourced by a parser, but don't need to be.

I've been doing alot of work building a filter architecture.  
And I've found the SAX 1.0 interface lacking.  Below is a 
suggested modification for SAX2.  Your comments would be
cool.  

Here is the relevant post to the SML-DEV list (edited 
for here for clarity).  The concepts are identical,
just add attributes, and all of the other XML stuff..


---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:04:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Clark C. Evans <clark.evans@manhattanproject.com>
Reply-To: sml-dev@egroups.com
To: sml-dev@egroups.com
Subject: [sml-dev] Character Tugging

Consider the following interface for
"push" elements, and "pull" characters.

  public interface Handler {
    public void begin(String name) ;
    public void characters(CharTug value);
    public void end(String name);
  }
  public interface CharTug {
    public Reader   toReader();
    public String   toString()
    public boolean hasObject()
    public Object  getObject()
  }

Thus, a handler would be pushed the "begin" event, 
for every SML start tag, and an "end" event for 
every SML end tag.  

  This much is very similar to the SAX API.

However, where it differs is "characters".  For the
characters event, most SAX implementations that I
have read make a temporary copy of the relevant parts 
of input buffer in zero or more events to the handler.

The "characters" event for the SAX interface
has several problems:

1. The hander may receive two or more sequential
   characters() event calls when a element's 
   content crosses a buffer boundary.  Thus state
   must be maintained and the termination of a
   sequence of characters is determined by two
   other events, the begin or end.  Hardly obvious.

2. Most of the time, the character array is 
   converted into a string, thus the temporary
   memory is allocated and then immediately 
   de-allocated.  This is not optimal.  
   Alternatively, the characters passed can
   be direct pointers into the parser's character
   buffer -- but the value may be stored,
   and this could cause unexpected problems.

3. If SAX events are put into a processor 
   pipeline,  then an application specific
   object, lets say "Currency" must be 
   converted to characters and back for
   each stage of the processing.  This is,
   to say the very least inneficient.

4. In the common case of building a string,
   the handler must put in special code.

By passing a CharTug instead, most of these
problems are solved.

1. If the application would rather 'read' 
   the information directly, it can ask for a 
   reader, getReader().  The parser is then like 
   a FilteredReader, scanning for begin/end tags, 
   and propery terminating the character sequence.

2. In the case of a getReader, no additioanl 
   intermediate storage is needed.

3. For the pipeline case, a hasObject can be
   called to see if an application specific
   object, like Currency or Integer has 
   already been built.  If so, then it can ask
   for this instead -- rather than breaking
   down the currency into characters and then
   re-building them at the other end.

4. And, for the common case, toString() is
   a helper function which will return the
   characters as a String object.  For the
   parser case, the parser would build the
   string directly from its input buffer.

   For the pipeline case, the previous stage
   could use the toString() method of its
   application specific object.  If a
   reader is requested, then it can either
   build a custom reader, or it can return
   a StringReader from the toString() result.
   This case can be provided as a helper class.

Note:  

   If the handler wants to disregard the characters
   content, then at worst case, a tiny CharTug object
   (does it need any member variables?) will have been 
   created and destroyed with far less usage than
   the corresponding char[] in a characters call.



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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 13 21:03:42 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <387E3871.B2C27224@pacbell.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <200001132103.QAA20053@hesketh.net>

At 12:41 PM 1/13/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
>> 
>> There are going to be lots of server side filter
>> architectures using the SAX interface which may
>> not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser"
>> interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter".
>> And I'd go so far to say that in a few years,
>> 99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!
>
>I sort of hope so.  XML data models shouldn't be
>forced to stop right above parsing; it's not always
>appropriate.  It should certainly be possible to
>assemble pipelines of components which may optionally
>be sourced by a parser, but don't need to be.

This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the terminology
change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining the inputs and
outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.

Funny how much rides in a name.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 13 21:19:31 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com> <200001132103.QAA20053@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <387E415F.8D57A62F@pacbell.net>

"Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> 
> At 12:41 PM 1/13/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> >"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> >>
> >> There are going to be lots of server side filter
> >> architectures using the SAX interface which may
> >> not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser"
> >> interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter".
> >> And I'd go so far to say that in a few years,
> >> 99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!
> >
> >I sort of hope so.  XML data models shouldn't be
> >forced to stop right above parsing; it's not always
> >appropriate.  It should certainly be possible to
> >assemble pipelines of components which may optionally
> >be sourced by a parser, but don't need to be.
> 
> This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the terminology
> change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining the inputs and
> outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.

My pipeline framework has "producer" and "consumer".

The filters are what go between those two, though a
producer can't tell a filter from any other kind of
consumer.


> Funny how much rides in a name.

It's central to explaining architectures -- gotta get
the connotations right.

- Dave

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 13 21:23:29 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <387E415F.8D57A62F@pacbell.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
 <200001132103.QAA20053@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001132122.QAA21152@hesketh.net>

At 01:19 PM 1/13/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>My pipeline framework has "producer" and "consumer".

Even better.  That connotes flow, not just component location in a
particular model.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 13 22:52:46 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
Message-ID: <200001132252.RAA26681@hesketh.net>

I'm pondering a list of "XML's greatest technical controversies" for a
training session.  They're areas I plan to cover in greater depth once we
get past the basics.

So far, I've got:

1. Namespaces
2. Whitespace, Ignorable or Otherwise
3. External Entities
4. External Resource Support in General
5. Choosing Elements vs. Attributes
6. Internal Subsets

I know there are more that we address at least every three months, but I'm
forgetting.

All suggestions are welcome.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 13 23:10:13 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4ABF3@RED-MSG-08>

Maybe Namespaces should occupy the top five slots. :-)

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 13 23:12:44 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000113151031.01498690@pop.intergate.ca>

At 05:52 PM 1/13/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

>2. Whitespace, Ignorable or Otherwise

That really controversial?  All that happens is that every so often,
a new group comes along and says "oh, I'll just write down a simple set
of rules for ignoring whitespace that works across applications" and 
a few months later they realize they can't.  One such group was the
original XML WG.  Unlike some of your others, I think most people who've
been around the track more than once have learned to live with the fact
that whitespace is only ignoreable in the context of some particular app.

>6. Internal Subsets

Shouldn't that just be 6. DTDs?

-T.

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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Thu Jan 13 23:19:07 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000113151031.01498690@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000113181820.26490B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:
> >6. Internal Subsets
> 
> Shouldn't that just be 6. DTDs?

Or, "SGML DTDs vs. Schemae"?

Steve


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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan 13 23:55:13 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: "Clark C. Evans"'s message of "Thu, 13 Jan 2000 15:26:39 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <m3emblh6j6.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Clark C. Evans" <clark.evans@manhattanproject.com> writes:

>   ( lhs == rhs | lhs.equals(rhs) )

I think that the Java2 library does something close to this; however,
it's efficient only when the strings *are* identical, not when they're
not


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan 13 23:56:59 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Thu, 13 Jan 2000 16:03:15 -0500"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com> <200001132103.QAA20053@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3bt6ph6g3.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the terminology
> change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining the inputs and
> outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.

I really hate "emitter", but I could live with "EventProducer" if
people really liked that better than "XMLReader"; it does kill the
potential XMLReader/XMLWriter symmetry, though.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 00:06:45 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Thu, 13 Jan 2000 17:52:54 -0500"
References: <200001132252.RAA26681@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3901th61s.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> I'm pondering a list of "XML's greatest technical controversies" for
> a training session.  They're areas I plan to cover in greater depth
> once we get past the basics.
> 
> So far, I've got:
> 
> 1. Namespaces
> 2. Whitespace, Ignorable or Otherwise
> 3. External Entities
> 4. External Resource Support in General
> 5. Choosing Elements vs. Attributes
> 6. Internal Subsets

Don't forget verbosity (binary formats and compression), mixed
content, schema/DTD repositories, comments, processing instructions,
character encodings, data typing, document and schema composition, the
single root element, required end tags, packaging multi-part
documents, etc. etc.

Come to think of it, I remember most of these from comp.text.sgml back
in 1993 and 1994.  We're not very original, are we?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Fri Jan 14 00:30:49 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: <200001132252.RAA26681@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131933330.4453-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
* 0. Mixed Content
> 1. Namespaces
> 2. Whitespace, Ignorable or Otherwise
> 3. External Entities
> 4. External Resource Support in General
> 5. Choosing Elements vs. Attributes
> 6. Internal Subsets


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan 14 00:46:56 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4ABF3@RED-MSG-08>
Message-ID: <200001140046.TAA32533@hesketh.net>

At 03:09 PM 1/13/00 -0800, Andrew Layman wrote:
>Maybe Namespaces should occupy the top five slots. :-)

#1 was originally Namespaces, Namespaces, Namespaces, but I thought maybe
that was a little harsh.  But maybe not!

David Megginson wrote:
>verbosity (binary formats and compression), mixed
>content, schema/DTD repositories, comments, processing instructions,
>character encodings, data typing, document and schema composition, the
>single root element, required end tags, packaging multi-part
>documents, etc. etc.

Er, uh, yeah.  That's a fine list.  I was thinking a little more in terms
of using XML than what went in the spec (otherwise I'd include notations
and unparsed entities), but that's got lots.

I wish I was better at coming up with nice phrases like 'data kidnap' and
'data lockout' to keep up with Rick Jelliffe, but we're off to a fine start!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From fujisawa at the.canon.co.jp  Fri Jan 14 02:57:10 2000
From: fujisawa at the.canon.co.jp (Jun Fujisawa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <v04210a00b4a437a1f76e@[172.20.38.43]>

On MSDN site, I found an article posted which addresses some
of the issues raised by the David Brownell's XML.com review.

<http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/general/msxmlconform.asp>

The article states that "you will see much better than 87 or
88 percent of XML files exchanged between Msxml.dll and
other parsers actually achieve interoperability".

Any comments?

--
Jun Fujisawa
<mailto:fujisawa@the.canon.co.jp>

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan 14 03:54:43 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
References: <200001132252.RAA26681@hesketh.net> <m3901th61s.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387E9D15.477C@hiwaay.net>

David Megginson wrote:
>
> Come to think of it, I remember most of these from comp.text.sgml back
> in 1993 and 1994.  We're not very original, are we?

Erik would be proud of all of you.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan 14 04:03:13 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
References: <3.0.32.20000113151031.01498690@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <387E9ECB.3B0F@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
>
> >6. Internal Subsets
> 
> Shouldn't that just be 6. DTDs?

No because if DTDs were really controversial, we wouldn't 
be having such a hard time adopting the children fields of 
VRML97 to DTDs (why, we just put Children elements in the DTDs!!) 
and XHTML would have been designed around a schema instead 
of a DTD.  Come to think of it, schemas have DTDs too.  So 
far, no one seems to blink.

BTW:  as one of the inventors of XML, and great thinkers 
in markup theories, is it possible the VRML represents 
something that XML can't or shouldn't?  Asked seriously 
because that claim was made today during the GreatChildNode 
controversy.

This one is worth understanding, XMLers, as it calls into 
question whether XML actually can be thought of as a universal 
data format.

len


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan 14 04:40:35 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <v04210a00b4a437a1f76e@[172.20.38.43]>
Message-ID: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net>

At 11:56 AM 1/14/00 +0900, Jun Fujisawa wrote:
>The article states that "you will see much better than 87 or
>88 percent of XML files exchanged between Msxml.dll and
>other parsers actually achieve interoperability".

My favorite moment comes near the end, where they say:
>Do you always pad parameter entities with whitespace or only when 
>they are not inside literals? We say yes. 

Er, yes to what?

My main gripe about the MS parser is its bizarre rules for namespace
support, demanding #FIXED declarations for namespace attributes.  (We've
been around this one a few times, and I haven't come anywhere near to
convinced by the MS arguments.)

I've also got a lot of complaints about its integration with IE 5.0 (though
some of those have been fixed with IE 5.01), but most of those aren't the
parser per se.

I'd love to see another round of comment on the comments, however.  It
seems like there are enough people around with a deep understanding of the
conformance tests (i.e., the people who built them) to report on the four
'hotly contested differences' listed.  Perhaps the <![CDATA[ ]]> (they
missed a bracket) question should be added to my 'great controversies' list...

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Fri Jan 14 08:09:42 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:11 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE : quick hack to bind XML to objects
Message-ID: <387ED9E5.C94D90D7@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

I do not pretend to solve the big picture and I would have used existing
products if they were mature enough (I hope I am not hurting anyone),
but I have developed a "quick hack to bind XML to objects" for one of my
projects.

The idea is to use a XSL transformation to preprocess the XML files into
something easy to interpret by a low level SAX parser which is updating
the objects through java.lang.reflect.

If you want to know more about this hack, I have published it on our web
:

     http://downloads.dyomedea.com/java/xmlbinder/

along with simples examples
(http://downloads.dyomedea.com/java/xmlbinder/com/dyomedea/xmlbind/examples/)
showing how :

1) A XML document is processed through a XSLT sheet into an XML
preprocessed actions definition file.
2) The data is binded into a "complex" object which can be either
transient or persistent (stored in a ozone OODB).
3) These objects can be XML aware and saved back into a XML document.
4) These objects can be used in a XSLT sheet (using XT).

Your comments and suggestions are welcome !

Thanks

Eric

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk  Fri Jan 14 11:40:38 2000
From: d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk (David DS Barnes)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: [Xml] Inventory
References: <ECC8D8536DF7D211AB8400805F191C1D0E17E2@ex-nld-u1.baan.com>
Message-ID: <387EFD15.8A0A7D6E@ic.ac.uk>

'Morning,

I am David Barnes, a postgrad at Imperial College, Computer Aided
Systems Engineering.

I work primarily in computational fluid dynamics, 
but my interest in xml/xsl is to harness this technology for a specific
project where
people in their respective fields can share their knowledge to create
"user-guides"
for field new-comers. Obvious apps are academic
(tutorials/lectures/etc), but hopefully the concept extends to
discussion groups, dynamic footnoting/margin-noting in documentation.
Project parameters are: non-proprietary, web-based, os&browser
independent.

Thank you,

David

Barry van Oven wrote:
> 
> Hello all.
> 
> I would like to get a general overview of the people on this list with
> regards to their expertise, general and specific knowledge areas, and
> bordering expertises.
> 
> Could you, if you have both the time and the will, just send a simple
> message to the entire list stating this information?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Barry van Oven
> 
> Webmaster
> Technical support
> 
> Knowledge Development
> Baan Development
> 
> _______________________________________________
> XML mailing list
> XML@projectcool.com
> Subscription Management at:
> http://lists.peoplesphere.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/xml

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From ldodds at ingenta.com  Fri Jan 14 12:31:45 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
In-Reply-To: <m3bt6ph6g3.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

> > This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the terminology
> > change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining the inputs and
> > outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.
> 
> I really hate "emitter", but I could live with "EventProducer" if
> people really liked that better than "XMLReader"; it does kill the
> potential XMLReader/XMLWriter symmetry, though.

EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...

Cheers,

L.

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From rgl at decisionsoft.com  Fri Jan 14 12:45:11 2000
From: rgl at decisionsoft.com (Richard Lanyon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
In-Reply-To: <000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001141240070.5056-100000@localhost.localdomain>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Leigh Dodds wrote:

> EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...

EventSupplier/EventConsumer?

-- 
Richard Lanyon (Software Engineer) |     "The medium is the message"
XML Script development,            |             - Marshall McLuhan
DecisionSoft Ltd.                  |


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From vilya at nag.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 12:46:19 2000
From: vilya at nag.co.uk (Vilya Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
References: <000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <387F1A99.34EEE100@nag.co.uk>

Leigh Dodds wrote:
> 
> > > This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the
> > > terminology change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining
> > > the inputs and outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.
> >
> > I really hate "emitter", but I could live with "EventProducer" if
> > people really liked that better than "XMLReader"; it does kill the
> > potential XMLReader/XMLWriter symmetry, though.
> 
> EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...

How about XMLSource and XMLDest (or XMLTarget)?

Vil.
-- 
Vilya Harvey  <vilya@nag.co.uk>    Wilkinson House  Mob: +44  961 106 505
Computational Mathematics Group   Jordan Hill Road   Wk: +44 1865 511 245
NAG Limited                    Oxford  UK  OX2 8DR  Fax: +44 1865 311 205

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From ceo at citix.com  Fri Jan 14 13:15:28 2000
From: ceo at citix.com (Steven Livingstone)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: [Xml] Inventory
References: <ECC8D8536DF7D211AB8400805F191C1D0E17E2@ex-nld-u1.baan.com> <387EFD15.8A0A7D6E@ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <00ff01bf5e91$72748150$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>

Hi Barry -

I work primarily in commerce systems and multi-teir Intra/Inter Net
applications using XML/XSL and other web technologies. I also develop
content based sites using XML/XSL. Other interests are in XMLRCP and SOAP
w.r.t the previous technologies.

Wouldn't say I'm a great theorist (plenty of guys on this list who are) - I
tend to concentrate more on applications of technologies.

Hope that's useful.

Cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
+44 (0) 7771 957 280

Professional XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
>
> Barry van Oven wrote:
> >
> > Hello all.
> >
> > I would like to get a general overview of the people on this list with
> > regards to their expertise, general and specific knowledge areas, and
> > bordering expertises.
> >
> > Could you, if you have both the time and the will, just send a simple
> > message to the entire list stating this information?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Barry van Oven
> >
> > Webmaster
> > Technical support
> >
> > Knowledge Development
> > Baan Development
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > XML mailing list
> > XML@projectcool.com
> > Subscription Management at:
> > http://lists.peoplesphere.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/xml
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>
>


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From lennon.kaku at jamicon.com.tw  Fri Jan 14 13:44:26 2000
From: lennon.kaku at jamicon.com.tw (lennon.kaku@jamicon.com.tw)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <387F28FA.5CF1CE6C@jamicon.com.tw>

unsubscribe .........Thanks.....
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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 13:46:41 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
In-Reply-To: <000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
References: <m3bt6ph6g3.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>
	<000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <14463.10382.669468.516371@localhost.localdomain>

Leigh Dodds writes:
 > > > This is a serious concern for me - I'd be happy to see the terminology
 > > > change from 'parser' to 'emitter' - it'd make explaining the inputs and
 > > > outputs on SAX2 ParserFilters a lot easier.
 > > 
 > > I really hate "emitter", but I could live with "EventProducer" if
 > > people really liked that better than "XMLReader"; it does kill the
 > > potential XMLReader/XMLWriter symmetry, though.
 > 
 > EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...

Yes, but *all* of the handers are event consumers.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From north at synopsys.COM  Fri Jan 14 13:54:20 2000
From: north at synopsys.COM (Simon North)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: [Xml] Inventory
In-Reply-To: <00ff01bf5e91$72748150$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
Message-ID: <200001141353.OAA07412@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>

Barry, 

For what it's worth, I'm a professional tech writer. In my current 
position I'm working on implementing user documentation inside a 
product using XML. In other incarnations, I freelance as NL/D/F/E 
translator and SGML/HyTime/XML developer. Oh, and I write books 
(Presenting XML, Teach Yourself XML in 21 Days, plus a load of 
other Internet books, and I'm about to start work on what I hope will 
be the definitive work on XLink/XPointers). 

Simon.

> > >
> > > I would like to get a general overview of the people on this list
> > > with regards to their expertise, general and specific knowledge
> > > areas, and bordering expertises.
> > >
> > > Could you, if you have both the time and the will, just send a
> > > simple message to the entire list stating this information?


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan 14 14:09:51 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: org.xml.sax.helpers.InternMap ?
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001131521120.954-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <387F2DEE.E832D579@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

"Clark C. Evans" wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:
> > Yes.   Given that *every* credible parser does this, and that it's
> > a major convenience for programmers using the API to be able to compare
> > strings with ==, there is at some level an argument that we ought to
> > expose this fact.
> 
> There are going to be lots of server side filter
> architectures using the SAX interface which may
> not do this.  Indeed, I'd say that the "parser"
> interface is mis-named.  It's really an "emitter".
> And I'd go so far to say that in a few years,
> 99% of the "emitters" out there won't be parsers!
> 
> So, requiring the authors of those emitters
> to be aware of Java "intern" is streaching it.

Maybe we could agree on interning if a simple unsynchronized local 
interning hashtable (able to work on String, char [] and StringBuffer
parts) is
included in org.xml.sax.helpers? 

My original argument was that interning would simplify namespace
comparison
since namespace == null can occur in attributes.

> and compile it as
> 
>   ( lhs == rhs | lhs.equals(rhs) )

(lhs == rhs || lhs.equals (rhs))

seems difficult for a java compiler: you could implement equals
returning
false allways, e.g. in a kind of "Random" object :-)  

However, you can add 

  if (this == rhs) return true;

to your equals implementation (ok, for String SUN should do that if not
already done). 

-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan 14 14:19:10 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
References: <000a01bf5e8b$44eb4e40$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <387F303B.1FECFBDE@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>


> > I really hate "emitter", but I could live with "EventProducer" if
> > people really liked that better than "XMLReader"; it does kill the
> > potential XMLReader/XMLWriter symmetry, though.
> 
> EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...

But the EventConsumer would be the Handler, not the Writer?! 

Best regards

Stefan

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From ralph.cramer at danet.de  Fri Jan 14 14:21:45 2000
From: ralph.cramer at danet.de (Ralph Cramer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <002201bf5e9a$881ade60$70126586@pc_rc.tt.danet.de>

unsubscribe


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 15:55:31 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FD@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Brownell wrote,
> Literals are already interned.  It's in the language 
> spec. Look at the javadoc for java.lang.String.intern () 

Good point ... and one which I'd <blush>unaccountably
overlooked</blush>.

I don't think this materially affects my argument tho',
because the only time where the performance difference
between,

  foo == "literal"

and,

  foo.equals("literal")

is going to be significant is where there are long chains
of comparisons, ie.,

  if(foo == "elem1")
    // do stuff for elem1
  else if(foo == "elem2")
    // do stuff for elem2
  
  // ... repeat many times ...

  else if (foo == "elemn")
    // do stuff for elemn

where it'd be a far better idea (both from performance and 
software design POVs) to do something like,

  ElementHandler handler =
    (ElementHandler)someTable.lookup(foo);

  handler.doStuffForElement();

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Fri Jan 14 16:32:47 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC025B@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 5:53 PM
 
> 1. Namespaces
> 2. Whitespace, Ignorable or Otherwise
> 3. External Entities
> 4. External Resource Support in General
> 5. Choosing Elements vs. Attributes
> 6. Internal Subsets

Does XSL vs. CSS count?  They're not inherent to XML itself, but they are
surrounding technologies.

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 16:34:31 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
Message-ID: <14463.20447.484648.493917@localhost.localdomain>

Instead of the old ParserFactory class, I'm considering creating a
general SAXUtils class, containing only static methods.  Here's what
I've thought of so far:

 public static void registerXMLReader (XMLReader reader);

 public static XMLReader getXMLReader ();

 public static XMLReader getXMLReader (String featuresWanted[],
                                       String featuresNotWanted[]);

 public static String makeAbsoluteURL (String url);

I wonder, though, if the register/getXMLReader stuff is even
appropriate for such a low-level URI, or whether it should be left for
higher layers.

I've also added makeAbsoluteURL because it's a method that I end up
cutting and pasting pretty much every time I write a SAX app.  Is
there anything else in this category?  I don't want this class to grow
too large, but we can add any really essential stuff like that.

Suggestions?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan 14 16:37:21 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC025B@cc20exch2.mobilit
 y.com>
Message-ID: <200001141637.LAA05889@hesketh.net>

At 11:30 AM 1/14/00 -0500, Hunter, David wrote:
>Does XSL vs. CSS count?  They're not inherent to XML itself, but they are
>surrounding technologies.

Don't know how I could possibly have forgotten that one.  With a fresh
draft of XSL, we'll probably see more activity on that front in the near
future, as well.

This is going to be a very interesting training session!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 16:40:23 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Tim Bray wrote,
> Miles Sabin wrote:
> > Anyhow, maybe the waters are getting a bit muddied. I'm
> > assuming that all parsers will do interning of one sort or
> > another internally. The issue for me is how much of that 
> > gets exposed via the SAX API. I don't want java-interning 
> > exposed, because that means my parser has no option but to 
> > use String.intern().
>
> Yes.   Given that *every* credible parser does this,

No argument here (assuming that my 'all parsers' => your 'every
credible parser').

> ... it's a major convenience for programmers using the 
> API to be able to compare strings with ==, there is at some 
> level an argument that we ought to expose this fact.
>
> I'd go further; based on having written a parser, it seems to 
> me that the only sane tactic is for the parser to use 
> java.intern(), but only once for each unique name, with some 
> sort of internal char[] or equivalent table.  If this is 
> true, it's an even stronger argument for just saying "element > types and
attribute names coming out of the parser are intern
> ()ed, period".  

OK, this is David M's position.

Sure, there's a case for this. But there's a case against too. 
There are at least two scenarios in which this would be a 
burden.

One is where SAX isn't sitting on top of a parser (this is
Arkin's worry). Instead it's generating SAX events from a DOM 
tree, java reflection, or some other data structure, a JDBC 
query perhaps.

Unlike a parser, these event sources deliver Strings directly, 
so if there were no requirement to String.intern() they could 
simply pass Strings straight through the ContentHandler API. A 
requirement that SAX return String.intern()'d Strings rules 
that out tho', because none of DOM, reflection, or JDBC make 
any guarantees that the Strings they return are interned. The 
cost of interning (whether via a direct call on String.intern() 
or via a David M style lookup against a table of interned 
Strings) would be a significant additional overhead.

You could argue that these aren't legitimate or central uses
of the SAX API. But if you want to do that you should make it
explicit, because it's likely to be quite a controversial
line.

The other scenario is mine (multiple parsers running over
arbitrary documents in multiple threads) where the global
String.intern() map is a point of contention. I won't bore
everyone with the details again.

Here too you could argue that this isn't a core use for the
SAX API, but again it would be helpful if that argument were
made up front, because I don't think I'm the only one who wants
to use SAX this way: I'd guess there are people who want use
XML -> HTML transforms via XSL in servlets on heavily loaded
servers ... they could be hit by this problem too.

There seem to be two main points to your argument for String.
intern()ing.

1. Reducing the amount of String object creation in parsers.

   I don't think _anybody_ thinks that this isn't important.
   the only issue is how best to do it. String.intern() is
   one way. An internal parser data structure is another.

2. Allowing ContentHandler implementors to use == instead of
   String.equals()

   This isn't at all clear cut.

   First, I suspect that at least some of the push for this is
   the possiblity that some people are implementing handlers
   as huge case statements,

     if(foo.equals("elem1")
       // handle elem1
     else if(foo.equals("elem2")
       // handle elem2

     // repeat many times

     else if(foo.equals("elemn")
       // handle elemn

   Whilst it's certainly true that being able to replace all
   the calls on String.equals() with == would significantly
   improve performance here (if there were a large number of
   cases), it's highly likely that switching to a better
   algorithm (chained conditionals are effectively linear
   search) would do even better, eg.,

     ElementHandler handler =
       (ElementHandler)someTable.lookup(foo);

     handler.handleElement();

   On the other hand if there are few branches, then, with a
   decent JVM, the difference between String.equals and == is
   going to be insignificant.

   In any case, with a small addition to the XMLReader
   interface it'd be possible for internal parser tables to
   support most of the core cases of this programming style 
   (even if it's poor style). If we added the following method
   to XMLReader,

     String intern(String toBeInterned)

   Then a ContentHandler implementor could write code like
   this,

     XMLReader r = XMLReaderFactory.createReader();

     // Pre-populate the readers intern table and get refs
     // to the (per-parser) uniqued Strings

     String ELEM1 = r.intern("elem1")
     String ELEM2 = r.intern("elem2")
     // ...
     String ELEMN = r.intern("elemn");

     r.parseDocument(...);
     r.parseDocument(...);
     // etc.

     // Then in the ContentHandler implementation

     if(foo == ELEM1)
       // handle elem1
     else if(foo == ELEM2)
       // handle elem2
     
     // Repeat many times

     else if(foo == ELEMN)
       // handle elemn

I think that something like this will get most people most of
what they want.

To be honest, tho', I don't see any particular reason why the
SAX API should be expected to support this sort of code.

> > But I'd much prefer it if the SAX API didn't expose any
> > interning behaviour at all. I think we agree on that?
>
> I think we're *arguing* about that... I don't detect 
> agreement yet. -T.

Err ... sorry, misunderstanding. My question was directed at
David B (who I _think_ does agree with me on that).

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From srn at techno.com  Fri Jan 14 17:17:46 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Microsoft's response to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <v04210a00b4a437a1f76e@[172.20.38.43]> (message from Jun Fujisawa
	on Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:56:18 +0900)
References: <v04210a00b4a437a1f76e@[172.20.38.43]>
Message-ID: <200001141716.LAA09514@bruno.techno.com>

[Jun Fujisawa <fujisawa@the.canon.co.jp>:]

> On MSDN site, I found an article posted which addresses some of the
> issues raised by the David Brownell's XML.com review.

> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/general/msxmlconform.asp>

> The article states that "you will see much better than 87 or 88
> percent of XML files exchanged between Msxml.dll and other parsers
> actually achieve interoperability".

  (Religion alert!  Below is a RANT from a person who believes Precise
  Communication Is A Good and Sacred Thing upon which the Lives and
  Livelihoods of All Civilized Human Beings Depend.)

I guess it depends on what is meant by "interoperability".
"Interoperability" means far more than "well-formedness" (parsability)
or even "validity" (conformance to a DTD or other schema).

An "interoperable" XML instance must provably conform, not only
lexically but also semantically, to a set of constraints such that any
application that relies upon an instance's conformance to that set of
constraints can successfully and fully interpret the instance
precisely in the manner intended by its creator.

  (Note: The widespread popular use of the term "XML file" is also
  imprecise and misleading.  I use the term "XML instance" because an
  "XML file" is not necessarily even well-formed, much less
  validatable, much less interoperable.  "XML instance" refers to the
  logical thing that is a complete XML expression.  "XML file" refers
  to a storage object that contains some data that has something to do
  with XML, but it does not imply that the contents of the file
  constitute a complete XML instance.  Therefore, while it is
  meaningful to speak of the "interoperability" of an "XML instance",
  it is not meaningful to speak of the "interoperability" of an "XML
  file".)

In the general case, there can be no such thing as "interoperability",
even for XML instances, unless the requirements of interoperability
have been exhaustively and precisely defined in writing -- most likely
using a natural language -- for a given class of XML instances.  Such
an "architecture definition document" (so-called in ISO/IEC
10744:1997) probably includes, but is not limited to, a DTD.  Yes, an
XML Schema might replace the DTD, but an XML Schema by itself cannot
be a definition of interoperability, any more than a DTD can.  This is
because no single parser, and no single schema language, regardless of
its level of sophistication, can be the arbiter of interoperability
for all types of instances.

Interoperability (regardless of what it is called after the word
"interoperability" has been rendered useless through widespread abuse)
is not yet a popular concept on the Web, but it will necessarily have
become popular by the time Web-based e-commerce has matured.  This is
because interoperable XML instances always make sense and always
perform as expected, even in multi-software-vendor, multi-application
contexts.  Business-to-business communications absolutely require that
level of reliability and precision, and business-to-business
communications very often occur in multi-software-vendor,
multi-application contexts.

Software vendors basically don't like information to be interoperable,
even though it serves the best interests of their customers.  One way
to attempt to stamp out the whole concept of interoperability is to
undermine the meaning of the word "interoperable", so that the concept
will afterwards not even have a name.  Even without a usable name,
though, the concept of real interoperability is not going to go away.
No amount of denial or FUD can change the basic business requirements.

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 17:27:13 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Microsoft's response to XML.com article
References: <v04210a00b4a437a1f76e@[172.20.38.43]>
Message-ID: <387F5C6C.BF2C1EAC@pacbell.net>

Jun Fujisawa wrote:
> 
> On MSDN site, I found an article posted which addresses some
> of the issues raised by the David Brownell's XML.com review.
> 
> <http://msdn.microsoft.com/xml/general/msxmlconform.asp>

I've got to say my initial reaction was "so, why not just fix
the bugs?".  But then, I know what it's like to be part of an
organization with a lead time of well over a year to fix a bug
in the next OS release.  It's a major downside of bundling.


> The article states that "you will see much better than 87 or
> 88 percent of XML files exchanged between Msxml.dll and
> other parsers actually achieve interoperability".

Depends on whether they use "Microsoft XML extensions", or standard
XML features that aren't supported.  Those all get zero interop.

Those documents with illegal control characters ... zero interop
with any XML processor that conforms to the specification.

Those documents using name characters that MSXML dislikes ... zero
interop with MSXML.  Just like those documents with DTDs that don't
make namespace declarations immutable.

I don't know where that implication came from, that only a max
of 88% of the interchanged XML files will interoperate.  I never
said, or implied, any such thing.


> Any comments?

I'm still comparing that response to the original article, so
I'll have some more comments later.

- Dave

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 17:56:17 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Naming the SAX2 thingy
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675204@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Leigh Dodds wrote,
> > EventProducer/EventConsumer? Its still got symmetry...
>
> Yes, but *all* of the handers are event consumers.

How about,

  DocumentEventSource
  ContentEventListener
  DTDEventListener
  ErrorEventListener
  
Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 18:00:12 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:37:31 -0500"
References: <200001141637.LAA05889@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m366wwh6v9.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> At 11:30 AM 1/14/00 -0500, Hunter, David wrote:
> >Does XSL vs. CSS count?  They're not inherent to XML itself, but they are
> >surrounding technologies.
> 
> Don't know how I could possibly have forgotten that one.  With a fresh
> draft of XSL, we'll probably see more activity on that front in the near
> future, as well.
> 
> This is going to be a very interesting training session!

Don't forget XML vs. relational databases.  That one hasn't reared its 
head for almost a year, but it was interesting at the time.

Oh yes, we forgot a big one, formats vs. protocols (try talking about
XML with a CORBA person for more than 30 seconds, and you'll see what
I mean).


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan 14 18:18:04 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
In-Reply-To: <m366wwh6v9.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:37:31 -0500">
 <200001141637.LAA05889@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001141817.NAA14292@hesketh.net>

At 12:59 PM 1/14/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Don't forget XML vs. relational databases.  That one hasn't reared its 
>head for almost a year, but it was interesting at the time.
>
>Oh yes, we forgot a big one, formats vs. protocols (try talking about
>XML with a CORBA person for more than 30 seconds, and you'll see what
>I mean).

These two at least have middle grounds, though perhaps it's more of a
demilitarized zone than a meeting place.  I haven't had any abuse from true
believers in CORBA since June, and I've spoken on it several times since
then, even to CORBA-folk.

The relational database issue seems to be settling nicely, as vendors of
RDBMS software are adding XML features and as XML starts talking about data
typing and other features that help RDBMS folk.  I'm still fond of those
crazy hierarchical databases, though, so maybe we can revive that ancient
feud.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 18:33:49 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:39:50 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> One is where SAX isn't sitting on top of a parser (this is Arkin's
> worry). Instead it's generating SAX events from a DOM tree, java
> reflection, or some other data structure, a JDBC query perhaps.

I was very concerned about this use case at first, but my concerns
lessened a bit once I started to consider implementation details.

If I'm writing a filter, where do the strings for the names I'm
passing on come from?

Well, most of the time, they'll come from upstream in the filter
chain, so they're already interned and I don't have to worry about
it.

Now, let's say that instead I want to introduce my own names, so that
(for example) I rename every "foo" element to "bar".  Good news!  The
string literal that I use in my code for "bar" is already interned
automatically, so there's nothing to worry about.

The only problem comes if my filter is reading names dynamically from
an external source, like a database or a non-XML text file, and
introducing them into the filter stream: in that case, the filter
would be required to invoke some kind of interning function for all of
the names.  

Note that this applies only when element or attribute *names* are
being read from the external source, not when attribute values or
character data content is.  For example, imagine that I have some
database tables that I'm always going to dump into the same XML
structure:

  <employee id="E12345">
   <name>David Megginson</name>
   <position>Grand Poohbah</position>
   <salary>Underpaid</salary>
  </employee>

There's no problem with interning here, because the string literals
that my filter uses for "employee", "name", "position", and "salary"
are already interned by the Java VM.

Iterating over a DOM, on the other hand, is a legitimate problem.
Every DOM implementation worth its salt will have interned all element
and attribute names (a DOM tree is big enough already), but there's no
way to be sure of that in the general case, or to be sure that the
names are == the results of java.lang.String.intern().  Too bad the
DOM level one Java binding didn't require that.

> The other scenario is mine (multiple parsers running over
> arbitrary documents in multiple threads) where the global
> String.intern() map is a point of contention. I won't bore
> everyone with the details again.

I'm much more skeptical about this one, because there are so many
preconditions:

1. you have to have many SAX parsers running in many threads on the
   same system;

2. the SAX parsers have to be being reused over and over in a
   time-critical environment;

3. the XML documents being processed have to be extremely
   heterogenous, or else each parser will have seen most of the
   available names after the first five or ten documents; AND

4. the rest of the parsing process has to be fast and interning has
   to be slow enough that there's serious contention for the interning
   Hashtable even when each parser is looking up only 20-30 names
   (perhaps fewer) for each parse.

If all of these conditions arise at the same time (and I question #3
and #4), then perhaps over-all XML parsing might slow down by 1-2%; if
the actual XML parsing represents even as much as 30% of the
processing time (the rest is taken by whatever the ContentHandler
callbacks do with the information), that's a 0.6% slowdown under these
circumstances.

Granted, the potential speedup for other apps probably isn't much
greater, but since the vast majority of SAX apps will not meet the
above criteria, and since the penalty when one does meet these
criteria is so small, it makes sense not to penalize everyone else.
If there's any real concern, I think, it's the DOM scenario.

[snip big case statement example]

> To be honest, tho', I don't see any particular reason why the
> SAX API should be expected to support this sort of code.

How about running in a tight loop?

  int len = atts.getLength();
  for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
    String name = atts.getName(i);
    if (atts.getURI(i) == "http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#") {
      if (name == "about") {
        do something
      } else if (name == "ID") {
        do something
      } else if (name == "aboutEach") {
        do something
      }
    } else if (atts.getURI(i) == "http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml") {
      if (name == "href") {
        do something
      } else if (name == "class") {
        do something
      } else if (name == "name") {
        do something
      }
    }
  }


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 18:34:30 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>

"Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> 
> I'd love to see another round of comment on the comments, however.  It
> seems like there are enough people around with a deep understanding of the
> conformance tests (i.e., the people who built them) to report on the four
> 'hotly contested differences' listed.

I don't know about "hotly".  The first two objections have meat
to them, the second two don't (IMHO):


* Is <![CDATA[ ]> the same as ignorable whitespace? We say no.

In this area, as in some others, the XML specification errata need to
get updated.  This is test that I called attention to in the review.
(It came from some XML-Dev discussions, where Microsoft was silent.)

In the absence of W3C errata ruling out this handling, I can't see a
compelling reason for the NIST/OASIS suite to change.  (Tim, I'm sorry
to say that your posted opinion doesn't count as much with me as W3C
errata would ... particularly since I can trace paths through the XML
spec justifying the contrary opinion!  ;-)


*  Is <!ENTITY lt "<"> valid ? We say no because it can't be
   legally expanded.

I find it odd to claim that this might be expanded, since "lt" must
be built in.  Under what circumstances might it be expanded?

Curiously, I think that refers to line 21 of the XML source for
the XML specification itself.  It's clearly incorrect, though
the question is "well formed" rather than "valid".  It got into
the NIST/OASIS test suite via the Japanese translation.

In that source, there are three declarations of note:  the one
that takes effect (built in to the XML processor), the bogus one
in the DTD internal subset, and a correct redeclaration in the
external subset.

Still, the document does violate the word of the specification,
and that's not a good thing.  Even if the document in question is
the XML specification itself!  (And I just noticed now that this
was the root cause of those failures; I think I misdiagnosed them
in the article, seeing the external subset declaration not the
internal subset one.)

 
*  Is <![ %e; <!ATTLIST doc a1 CDATA "v1"> ]]> valid? We say no
   because %e; should not contain the opening square bracket, '[',
   which belongs to the conditional section syntax.

And I repeat my original challenge to Chris Lovett to point me
to a place in the XML spec that defines such a constraint.  It's
neither a grammar rule, nor a validity constraint, nor a WFC, nor
even a specification erratum ... it seems like a "Microsoft XML
extension" to me.

(Though within up to six months after the XML spec came out, I
might have supported changing that spec to call this an error.
After two years, that would count as an "incompatible change".) 


*  Do you always pad parameter entities with whitespace or only
  when they are not inside literals? We say yes.

As Simon said, "yes to what?"  :-)

Presumably, "yes to breaking the spec the way MSXML.DLL does".
The spec is quite clear about PE expansions within literals,
and MSXML doesn't follow it (4.4.5).

- Dave

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From Pzingg at imsisoft.com  Fri Jan 14 19:05:50 2000
From: Pzingg at imsisoft.com (Peter Zingg)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Any public source code for an XML Schema (12/17/99) checker out t
	here?
Message-ID: <4D0C1E192CE9D1119A6C00805FC1F8FA02093523@mail.imsisoft.com>

I'm trying to write a few schemas for XML with some associated example
documents, and am currently using the Microsoft (IE 5) XDR system for
validating the documents.  I'd like to move away from XDR to a more
"official" schema system.  Does anyone have any tools to check the validity
of documents against the 12/17/99 XML Schema draft?

My current requirements are slim:

I only need to associate one schema per document.  (Seems like there is
still a lot of confusion in xml-dev and the WG comments about namespaces,
schemaLocations, and the like).
I have no need to check XML Schema Datatypes (yet).
I have no need for testing the uniqueness of keys and keyrefs (yet).
I only need partial support for XML Schema Structures.  Checking for the
correct content model (textOnly|mixed|elementOnly|empty), valid attribute
and element names, minOccurs and maxOccurs would probably be enough.
I'd like the tool to work with expat (in C or Perl, for example).

I suppose if anyone has source code for XDR or other schema validating
stuff, I could modify it to suit my needs.

I'm assuming that when things settle down in March, there will be such tools
available, even with W3C's imprimatur (maybe even Microsoft will update
their parser to accept the W3C recommendation).

Thanks,
Peter Zingg
IMSI
75 Rowland Way
Novato, CA 94945
pzingg@imsisoft.com
(415) 878-4205

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 19:33:43 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675207@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> I was very concerned about this use case at first, but my 
> concerns lessened a bit once I started to consider 
> implementation details.
>
> If I'm writing a filter, where do the strings for the names 
> I'm passing on come from?

I'd put filters in a slightly different box. Layers of SAX
handlers feeding into XMLReaders feeding into handlers ...
will come out fine, because, as you say, everything is
String.intern()'d from source to sink.

> Iterating over a DOM, on the other hand, is a legitimate 
> problem. Every DOM implementation worth its salt will have 
> interned all element and attribute names (a DOM tree is big 
> enough already), but there's no way to be sure of that in the 
> general case, or to be sure that the names are == the results 
> of java.lang.String.intern().  

Not just a DOM. Quite a few people are sitting SAX on top of
all sorts of data-structures which don't necessarily make any
interning guarantees. And don't forget database queries.

> Too bad the DOM level one Java binding didn't require that.

Hmm ... similar issues. Some people layer DOM implementations
on top of non-DOM data structures, java-reflection and DB
queries.

> > The other scenario is mine (multiple parsers running over
> > arbitrary documents in multiple threads) where the global
> > String.intern() map is a point of contention. I won't bore
> > everyone with the details again.
>
> I'm much more skeptical about this one, because there are so 
> many preconditions:
>
> [snip: 4 conditions]
>
> If all of these conditions arise at the same time (and I 
> question #3 and #4), then perhaps over-all XML parsing might 
> slow down by 1-2%; if the actual XML parsing represents even 
> as much as 30% of the processing time (the rest is taken by 
> whatever the ContentHandler callbacks do with the 
> information), that's a 0.6% slowdown under these
> circumstances.

Those four conditions cover my situation pretty accurately.
You'll just have to swallow (3), but (4) is the single-
processor vs. multi-processor thing. 

> Granted, the potential speedup for other apps probably isn't 
> much greater, but since the vast majority of SAX apps will 
> not meet the above criteria, and since the penalty when one 
> does meet these criteria is so small, it makes sense not to 
> penalize everyone else.

OK, there's not much I can say to that. If I really am doing
something very far out then it'd be unreasonable for you to
twist the API to suit me.

I'm not convinced tho'. This isn't quite my app, but I can 
imagine people wanting serve HTML generated via XSL from 
heterogenous XML on a heavily loaded, multi-threaded HTTP server.
It'd be a shame if lock contention issues made it harder for
them to scale up to more users by sticking a couple more
processors in the box.

> If there's any real concern, I think, it's the DOM scenario.

Arkin? Comments?

> > [snip big case statement example]
> > To be honest, tho', I don't see any particular reason why 
> > the SAX API should be expected to support this sort of 
> > code.
>
> How about running in a tight loop?

I doubt that the difference between String.equals() and == would 
be critical even here if the code under the conditionals does
much work. But even if it _is_, adding an interning method
to XMLReader,

  String intern(String toBeInterned);

would do the trick,

  // In startDocument() or outside the ContentHandler
  // altogether

  RDF = r.intern("http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#");
  ABOUT = r.intern("about");
  ID = r.intern("ID");
  ABOUT_EACH = r.intern("aboutEach");

  XHTML = r.intern("http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml");
  HREF = r.intern("href");
  CLASS = r.intern("class");
  NAME = r.intern("name");


  // In startElement()

  for (int i = 0; i < len; i++) {
    String name = atts.getName(i);
    if (atts.getURI(i) == RDF) {
      if (name == ABOUT) {
        do something
      } else if (name == ID) {
        do something
      } else if (name == ABOUT_EACH) {
        do something
      }
    } else if (atts.getURI(i) == XHTML) {
      if (name == HREF) {
        do something
      } else if (name == CLASS) {
        do something
      } else if (name == NAME) {
        do something
      }
    }
  }

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com  Fri Jan 14 19:55:42 2000
From: Curt.Arnold at hyprotech.com (Arnold, Curt)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Any public source code for an XML Schema (12/17/99) checker o
	ut t here?
Message-ID: <00E567D938B9D311ACEC00A0C9B468730C74C0@THOR>

Sorry, I don't think that you will be able to find something like that
immediately.  The XML Apache Project is working to incorporate 17 Dec Schema
into their Xerces parsers but there are aspects that are darn complicated.

With early schema drafts it has been fairly easy to write an application
that reads a schema and generates DTD's.  Since you are aren't immediately
interested in the features Schema adds above DTD validation, then you could
just use schema as a higher level DTD authoring language (an approach I've
used in the past).  With this draft, you would have to avoid the
context-sensitive element declarations (where an element has one structure
when used in the context of one element and a different structure in the
context of another).



-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Zingg [mailto:Pzingg@imsisoft.com]
Sent: Friday, January 14, 2000 1:04 PM
To: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'; 'www-xml-schema-comments@w3c.org'
Subject: Any public source code for an XML Schema (12/17/99) checker out
t here?


I'm trying to write a few schemas for XML with some associated example
documents, and am currently using the Microsoft (IE 5) XDR system for
validating the documents.  I'd like to move away from XDR to a more
"official" schema system.  Does anyone have any tools to check the validity
of documents against the 12/17/99 XML Schema draft?

My current requirements are slim:

I only need to associate one schema per document.  (Seems like there is
still a lot of confusion in xml-dev and the WG comments about namespaces,
schemaLocations, and the like).
I have no need to check XML Schema Datatypes (yet).
I have no need for testing the uniqueness of keys and keyrefs (yet).
I only need partial support for XML Schema Structures.  Checking for the
correct content model (textOnly|mixed|elementOnly|empty), valid attribute
and element names, minOccurs and maxOccurs would probably be enough.
I'd like the tool to work with expat (in C or Perl, for example).

I suppose if anyone has source code for XDR or other schema validating
stuff, I could modify it to suit my needs.

I'm assuming that when things settle down in March, there will be such tools
available, even with W3C's imprimatur (maybe even Microsoft will update
their parser to accept the W3C recommendation).

Thanks,
Peter Zingg
IMSI
75 Rowland Way
Novato, CA 94945
pzingg@imsisoft.com
(415) 878-4205

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 19:58:10 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000113181820.26490B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <387F7FCB.E884733B@pacbell.net>

Steven Champeon wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 13 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:
> > >6. Internal Subsets
> >
> > Shouldn't that just be 6. DTDs?
> 
> Or, "SGML DTDs vs. Schemae"?

Make that "XML" DTDs, since SGML ones (like the HTML 4.0 DTD)
can't work in XML!

I'd actually generalize this:

6. How do I formalize my data models?

DTDs being one choice.  There are several schema based solutions,
as well as a variety of algorithmic ones.

Most tool vendors will gladly explain to you why their tool is
better than all the others, and politely dodge the issue of
which one is better for your particular task ... I'm a huge
believer that there will not be (and should not be) a single
"one size fits all" approach.

If nothing else, I'll point to the way human civilization
evolved over the past millenia to accomodate diversity.
That is, when it's not focussed on wars to eliminate it!
Data modeling has always been a microcosm of that.

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 20:09:59 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FD@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387F8292.99EB08C5@pacbell.net>

[ I got two copies of this, one direct and one to list -- I
responded to the former, just noticed the latter, am summarizing
a key point here: ]

This is highly dependant on "N", and the type of work being
done in those branches.  I've typically observed N to be low,
on the order of a dozen (usually less).  Averaging out to N/2
comparisons, at two instructions each (test, branch), that's
easily less than the cost of two method calls alone (lookup,
dispatch to handler), not to omit the lookup itself (e.g. a
hash, bucket selection, bucket search, lock acquisition and
release, etc).  

The suggested pattern is useful in some cases, but not all.
I use the "==" chain a hundred times before I come across a
case where the dispatch object is appropriate; and that's
as true in applications as in infrastructure.

- Dave


Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> 	 the only time where the performance difference
> between,
> 
>   foo == "literal"
> 
> and,
> 
>   foo.equals("literal")
> 
> is going to be significant is where there are long chains
> of comparisons, ie.,
> 
>   if(foo == "elem1")
>     // do stuff for elem1
>   else if(foo == "elem2")
>     // do stuff for elem2
> 
>   // ... repeat many times ...
> 
>   else if (foo == "elemn")
>     // do stuff for elemn
> 
> where it'd be a far better idea (both from performance and
> software design POVs) to do something like,
> 
>   ElementHandler handler =
>     (ElementHandler)someTable.lookup(foo);
> 
>   handler.doStuffForElement();
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Miles
> 
> --
> Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 20:08:53 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: Sting interning: test cases wanted.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67520A@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Doug Lea (Java concurrency guru, for those of you who don't
recognize the name) has very generously offered to run some 
String.intern() benchmarks on a 4 way Sun box to give us a bit
of empirical input into this debate.

All we have to do is come up with plausible test cases. They
needn't (in fact, probably shouldn't) be full blown parsers and
handlers, just typical patterns of String.intern(),
String.equals() and ==, which can be looped and replicated
across a variable number of threads.

Any takers?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/




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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 20:13:49 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387F836F.3BEEDF49@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> > > But I'd much prefer it if the SAX API didn't expose any
> > > interning behaviour at all. I think we agree on that?
> >
> > I think we're *arguing* about that... I don't detect
> > agreement yet. -T.
> 
> Err ... sorry, misunderstanding. My question was directed at
> David B (who I _think_ does agree with me on that).

Nope -- I want to see it _exposed_ but not mandated.  It's
actually OK if parsers do this only for their own benefit,
but it's more useful if apps can tell when it's being done.

The reason not to mandate it is that there are non-parser
applictions of SAX, where it's unreasonable to demand that
the event source guarantee such interning.

- Dave

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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Fri Jan 14 20:20:18 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:12 2004
Subject: EI5 Message with Entities (fwd)
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001141516500.19750-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>


Since IE5 kick-abouts are periodically acceptable, I'm having a deuce of a
time understanding by I get the following choke:

<snip_ie5>

The XML page cannot be displayed Cannot view XML input using XSL style
sheet. Please correct the error and then click the Refresh
<javascript:location.reload()> button, or try again later.   Entity
'openparenheb' contains an infinite entity reference loop. Line 3,
Position 10 

<tei.2 id="n0021-9231.114.art.0385">

</snip_ie5>

The little arrow points to the 10'th char. of the root element, the tei.2
element, but teh line 3 is the actual entity declaration:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE TEI.2 SYSTEM "atlas_teixlite.dtd" [
<!ENTITY openparenheb "&openparenheb;" > 
<!ENTITY closeparenheb "&closeparenheb;" >
]>

<tei.2 id="n0021-9231.114.art.0385">

<teiHeader>

<fileDesc>

---- and so on

Any thoughts on this?  If this is a no-brainer, beneath the level of
converse on this list, please accept apologies, but if there's not
something obvious, what's the theory here?

jr


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 20:20:01 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> If I'm writing a filter, where do the strings for the names I'm
> passing on come from?
> 
> Well, most of the time, they'll come from upstream in the filter
> chain, so they're already interned and I don't have to worry about
> it.

If an application wants to rely on "==" then "most of the time"
just isn't good enough.  The filter needs to know definitively.

If the concern is only memory efficiency, then I tend to agree
that there may well be more important things to worry about.
But maybe not; so the filter can benefit from knowing if the
data it gets is already interned.

- Dave

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 20:29:45 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67520C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Brownell wrote,
> Nope -- I want to see it _exposed_ but not mandated.  It's
> actually OK if parsers do this only for their own benefit,
> but it's more useful if apps can tell when it's being done.

OK, how does that pan out? Querying for String.intern() support 
via a getFeature() call? That'd work, but you need to spell it 
out a bit more, because the naive way of taking advantage of 
interning in a ContentHandler looks disgusting,

  if(hasInterning)
  {
    if(name == "elem1")
      //
    else if(name == "elem2")
      //
    else
      // etc
  }
  else
  {
    if(name.equals("elem1"))
      //
    else if(name.equals("elem2"))
      //
    else
      // etc
  }

A much nicer way of doing it would be,

  if(reader.getFeature(... interning ...))
    reader.setContentHandler(handlerAssumingIntern);
  else
    reader.setContentHandler(handlerNotAssumingIntern);

  reader.parseDocument(...);

I could live with this.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 20:35:02 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67520C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <387F886D.46BB2B0A@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote,
> > Nope -- I want to see it _exposed_ but not mandated.  It's
> > actually OK if parsers do this only for their own benefit,
> > but it's more useful if apps can tell when it's being done.
> 
> OK, how does that pan out? Querying for String.intern() support
> via a getFeature() call? That'd work, but you need to spell it
> out a bit more, because the naive way of taking advantage of
> interning in a ContentHandler looks disgusting,
> 
>   if(hasInterning)
>   {
>     ...
>   }
>   else
>   {
>     ...
>   }

I had in mind more like

    if (!hasInterning)
	throw new ConfigurationError ("get me a different parser");

For apps that don't care, they won't check the feature.  For
those that do care, getting a parser that's not correctly
featured would be just another class of configuration bug.

- Dave

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 20:35:59 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
In-Reply-To: <387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
	<m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <14463.34932.93100.728676@localhost.localdomain>

David Brownell writes:

 > If the concern is only memory efficiency, then I tend to agree
 > that there may well be more important things to worry about.
 > But maybe not; so the filter can benefit from knowing if the
 > data it gets is already interned.

That's just the question.  I think it's too much hassle for people to
have to do

  boolean namesAreInterned = 
   xmlReader.getFeature("http://xml.org/sax/features/interned-names");

and then

  if (name == "foo" || (!namesAreInterned || name.equals("foo"))) {
    do something
  }

every time they want to compare names, and I very much doubt that
people will be happy with

  private final static String FOO = mySAXInternTable.intern("foo");

and then

  if (name == FOO) {
    do something
  }

One of the basic design goals of SAX 1.0 was to keep the interface
simple, under the assumption that many (most?) of the users will not
be XML or Java gurus, or even well-experienced programmers in
general.

Keeping this goal in mind, then, there are only two reasonable
choices:

1. Declare that SAX2 names must always be interned as with
   java.lang.String.intern.

2. Declare that SAX2 names need not be interned as with
   java.lang.String.intern.

Them's the choices.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 20:39:11 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 19:33:10 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675207@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3zou8fkxv.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> Not just a DOM. Quite a few people are sitting SAX on top of
> all sorts of data-structures which don't necessarily make any
> interning guarantees. And don't forget database queries.

With database queries you usually already know the names and you're
querying just for the contents:

  select name, age from PersonalInfo where status = 'active'

and then

  <person>
    <name>Jane Smith</name>
    <age>27</age>
  </person>

I didn't get the "person", "name", or "age" strings out of the
database: they're hard-coded in my filter.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jan 14 20:48:48 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Any public source code for an XML Schema (12/17/99) checker out t 	here?
In-Reply-To: Peter Zingg's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 11:03:42 -0800"
References: <4D0C1E192CE9D1119A6C00805FC1F8FA02093523@mail.imsisoft.com>
Message-ID: <f5bwvpc5qhl.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

For a schema CHECKER, i.e. something which checks schemas, any
validating XML parser is a good start:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE schema SYSTEM "http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xmlschema-1-19991217/structures.xsd">
<schema ...>
[Your schema here]
</schema>

For checking an instance against some other schema, well, be patient
for a few more weeks.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 20:51:12 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Sting interning: test cases wanted.
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 20:08:20 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67520A@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3wvpcfkdt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> Doug Lea (Java concurrency guru, for those of you who don't
> recognize the name) has very generously offered to run some 
> String.intern() benchmarks on a 4 way Sun box to give us a bit
> of empirical input into this debate.
> 
> All we have to do is come up with plausible test cases. They
> needn't (in fact, probably shouldn't) be full blown parsers and
> handlers, just typical patterns of String.intern(),
> String.equals() and ==, which can be looped and replicated
> across a variable number of threads.

Why not try the real thing?

Download Microstar's AElfred XML parser from

  http://www.microstar.com/aelfred.html

By default, this parser doesn't use java.lang.String.intern in its
intern functions.  Look for the following line in XmlParser.java (on
or about line 2,413):

				// OK, add it to the end of the
				// bucket.
    String s = new String(ch, start, length);

Make a second copy and change it to read

				// OK, add it to the end of the
				// bucket.
    String s = new String(ch, start, length).intern();

Get the biggest batch of XML documents you can collect (or set up
scripts to generate some dynamically from whatever data structures you
can get your hands on, even system calls) and build your test
architecture: four parsers running in parallel, each processing
documents in serial: first with the original version of AElfred, then
with the modified version.

It will be very interesting to see the results.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 21:49:11 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
In-Reply-To: <387F9890.1EF01C01@exoffice.com>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
	<m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net>
	<14463.34932.93100.728676@localhost.localdomain>
	<387F9890.1EF01C01@exoffice.com>
Message-ID: <14463.39332.614238.739927@localhost.localdomain>

Assaf Arkin writes:

 > For the life of me I cannot figure out what's wrong with
 > 
 >   if ( name.equals( "foo" ) )
 > 
 > or
 > 
 >   if ( name == "foo" || name.equals( "foo" ) )

The normal case is that the names are *not* the same (you probably
test against many possibilities to find a match), so you pay the
equals() cost most of the time.  For comparison, I just whipped up a
Java class to compare two (non-equal) Strings 10,000,000 times.  Here
are the USER timings:

No comparisons (startup overhead): 0.67 seconds
Compare with ==:                   0.94 seconds (=0.27 seconds)
Compare with equals():             8.00 seconds (=7.33 seconds)

That's a very significant performance difference.  It doesn't matter
if I use == before equals(), of course, since they are not == or
equals().  Now, I don't know if the difference is big enough to show
up in an overall application, but given the efficiency of ==, it would
probably be an order of magnitude faster to test against 30 or 40
names using == than it would to make a single Hashtable or HashMap
lookup.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Fri Jan 14 21:54:27 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: file extension naming conventions
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000114161840.18903B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>


Over the past few months, I've noticed quite a few different file
extensions being used, by the W3C and elsewhere, to describe XML and
XML-related documents:

 .xml - xml files
 .dtd - document type definitions

Fair enough - these are defined in RFC 2376:

 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc2376.txt

In addition, I've seen (and used):

 .xsl - XSL files
 .css - pretty obvious, CSS files

I don't know if these are defined (along with their corresponding MIME
type/subtype) as the others seem to be in RFC 2376.

Elsewhere, however, I've seen the following:

 .ent - entities
 .xsd - XML Schema Document?
 .mod - used in the XHTML modularization efforts
        (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/)

I'm just curious how many more there are, and whether there has been
any effort to document them a la RFC 2376.

TIA for any pointers,
Steve








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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 22:01:25 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675210@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> For comparison, I just whipped up a Java class to compare two 
> (non-equal) Strings 10,000,000 times.  Here are the USER 
> timings:
>
> No comparisons (startup overhead): 0.67 seconds
> Compare with ==:                   0.94 seconds (=0.2 seconds)
> Compare with equals():             8.00 seconds (=7.33 seconds)
>
> That's a very significant performance difference.

It's also a completely meaningless one unless we can see the
code and know something about the platform you're running on.
I'd be quite surprised if there was that much margin with a
Sun 1.2 JDK and Hotspot on Solaris or Win32.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 22:08:12 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675210@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675210@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14463.40469.126406.728330@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin writes:

 > > For comparison, I just whipped up a Java class to compare two 
 > > (non-equal) Strings 10,000,000 times.  Here are the USER 
 > > timings:
 > >
 > > No comparisons (startup overhead): 0.67 seconds
 > > Compare with ==:                   0.94 seconds (=0.2 seconds)
 > > Compare with equals():             8.00 seconds (=7.33 seconds)
 > >
 > > That's a very significant performance difference.
 > 
 > It's also a completely meaningless one unless we can see the
 > code and know something about the platform you're running on.
 > I'd be quite surprised if there was that much margin with a
 > Sun 1.2 JDK and Hotspot on Solaris or Win32.

Java2 on Linux.  Here's the code (uncomment or comment the appropriate 
lines):

  public class Hack
  {
      public static void main (String args[])
      {
          String a = "Charlie";
          String b = "Fred";
          int j = 0;;

          for (int i = 0; i < 10000000; i++) {
  //        if (a == b) {
            if (a.equals(b)) {
                  j++;
              }
          }
      }
  }

(The j++ stuff is to try to keep optimizers from removing the whole
loop.)

I'll be very interested to see the results from Hotspot (don't forget
to comment out the whole loop at first to get the base startup time)
-- if they're not far apart for == and equals(), then this may become
a non-issue.

How do you run timings under Windows, by the way?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 14 22:12:20 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: file extension naming conventions
In-Reply-To: Steven Champeon's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 16:54:13 -0500 (EST)"
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000114161840.18903B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3u2kgfgmn.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com> writes:

> Elsewhere, however, I've seen the following:
> 
>  .ent - entities
>  .xsd - XML Schema Document?
>  .mod - used in the XHTML modularization efforts
>         (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/)

.rdf


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 22:19:02 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: file extension naming conventions
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000114161840.18903B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net> <m3u2kgfgmn.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387FA0CB.FF366FAE@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> Steven Champeon <schampeo@hesketh.com> writes:
> 
> > Elsewhere, however, I've seen the following:
> >
> >  .ent - entities
> >  .xsd - XML Schema Document?
> >  .mod - used in the XHTML modularization efforts
> >         (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-modularization/)
> 
> .rdf

.rss (maybe the most widely used XML application today!)

.xsa

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 22:19:11 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675212@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Java2 on Linux.  Here's the code (uncomment or comment the 
> appropriate lines):

Which JIT? The last time I looked (admittedly quite a while
ago) TYA wasn't too quick.

> [snip: benchmark]

OK, I'll have to tweak this slightly: Hotspot needs a bit of
a run up.

> How do you run timings under Windows, by the way?

Sort of shelling out for various tools the best you can do is,

  long startTime = System.currentTimeMillis();
  // do stuff
  long endTime = System.currentTimeMillis();

I'll do this on NT over the w/e, and on Solaris Sparc when I
get back to work on Monday.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 14 22:26:25 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
	 <m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net> <14463.34932.93100.728676@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <387FA28A.AE4BC5E2@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> One of the basic design goals of SAX 1.0 was to keep the interface
> simple, under the assumption that many (most?) of the users will not
> be XML or Java gurus, or even well-experienced programmers in
> general.
> 
> Keeping this goal in mind, then, there are only two reasonable
> choices:
> 
> 1. Declare that SAX2 names must always be interned as with
>    java.lang.String.intern.

Were only parsers at issue, this would be my choice.  There
will not be many parsers, and as someone (Tim?) noted, if they
don't do this already, it's likely a one line change.


> 2. Declare that SAX2 names need not be interned as with
>    java.lang.String.intern.
> 
> Them's the choices.

That is, you're ruling out

3. Let SAX2 event producers expose which policy they use, so
   that components which require interning can fail cleanly
   (at setup time) if their inputs don't do it.

The reason I like #3 is that I beleve more components will be
generating these events than just parsers, and it's too much
to demand that every such producer do the interning.

- Dave

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From greynolds at datalogics.com  Fri Jan 14 22:28:51 2000
From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: biblioml
Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401B1710E@martinique>

A couple months ago I asked about bibliography dtds and received some useful
references from xml-deviants (thanks).  Just came across this on Robin
Cover's site and didn't find anything for it here, so in case you're
interested:

	http://www.culture.fr/BiblioML/


Gregg Reynolds


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com  Fri Jan 14 22:43:38 2000
From: ssdhanoa at us.ibm.com (ssdhanoa@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: New XML/XSL Technologies & Updates
Message-ID: <87256866.007CCFD9.00@d53mta02h.boulder.ibm.com>



New Technologies from alphaWorks (http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com)

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Download Snapp here:
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the necessary Java code for the beans and places them in a jar file in the
location specified.

Download Xmas here:
http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/xmas?open&l=xml-dev,t=xmas1


Updates

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save XSL and XML source documents.  Release 2 includes enhanced
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for different platforms, and the ability to run the transform
without tracing.

Download XSL Editor here:
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LotusXSL

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Download LotusXSL here:
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Need help with XML?  Ask the developerWorks Experts.  Submit your
questions here:
http://www-4.ibm.com/software/developer/library/xml-experts.html?l=136,t=g,p=experts



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Fri Jan 14 23:03:41 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: IMPORTANT: MODERATION [Was Re: [Xml] Inventory]
In-Reply-To: <387EFD15.8A0A7D6E@ic.ac.uk>
References: <ECC8D8536DF7D211AB8400805F191C1D0E17E2@ex-nld-u1.baan.com>
Message-ID: <E129Fko-000K7M-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

At 11:40 AM 1/14/00 +0100, David DS Barnes wrote:
[... snipped]

In reply to:

>
>Barry van Oven wrote:
>> 
>> Hello all.
>> 
>> I would like to get a general overview of the people on this list with
>> regards to their expertise, general and specific knowledge areas, and
>> bordering expertises.
>> 
>> Could you, if you have both the time and the will, just send a simple
>> message to the entire list stating this information?
>> 
>> Thanks in advance.
>> 
>> Barry van Oven
>> 
>> Webmaster
>> Technical support
>> 
>> Knowledge Development
>> Baan Development
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> XML mailing list
>> XML@projectcool.com
>> Subscription Management at:
>> http://lists.peoplesphere.com/mailman/listinfo.cgi/xml

I seem to have missed this original posting, but is *** totally
inappropriate for XML-DEV at this stage***

There are > 1500 subscribers on XML-DEV and if everyone posted it would
result in 2,250,000 mail messages being sent over the Internet.(apart from
the inevitable flames asking people to shut up). 

Whatever the motivation, there
are relatively few occasions when it is appropriate to ask list members to
post **to the list**. Whenever XML-DEV has 
initiated something and the number of requests gets large, the poster
almost always asks for the discussion to be taken offline ("please mail me
rather than the list").

	P.

	(XML-DEV "moderator")

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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan 14 23:59:17 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000114155208.014b5ce0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 12:13 PM 1/14/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>The reason not to mandate it is that there are non-parser
>applictions of SAX, where it's unreasonable to demand that
>the event source guarantee such interning.

Really?  Could you expand on that? 

Mind you, this debate on what is really a fairly minor piece of SAX
is probably coming approaching a negative cost-benefit ratio.
-T.	

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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan 14 23:59:33 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000114155423.014bbcc0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:29 PM 1/14/00 -0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>OK, how does that pan out? Querying for String.intern() support 
>via a getFeature() call? That'd work, but you need to spell it 
>out a bit more, because the naive way of taking advantage of 
>interning in a ContentHandler looks disgusting,

No kidding.  I'd say make it compulsory or just leave it alone. -T.


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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Sat Jan 15 01:18:22 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: file extension naming conventions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000114161840.18903B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001142017130.15984-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>

On Fri, 14 Jan 2000, Steven Champeon wrote:

> 
>  .ent - entities
> any effort to document them a la RFC 2376.

schema.net has entity files, and darn nice ones, with a .pen extension.
This was debated, I think, on XML-L last spring unless I'm mistaken.


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From jjc at jclark.com  Sat Jan 15 06:07:10 2000
From: jjc at jclark.com (James Clark)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net> <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com>

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> "Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> >
> > I'd love to see another round of comment on the comments, however.  It
> > seems like there are enough people around with a deep understanding of the
> > conformance tests (i.e., the people who built them) to report on the four
> > 'hotly contested differences' listed.
> 
> I don't know about "hotly".  The first two objections have meat
> to them, the second two don't (IMHO):
> 
> * Is <![CDATA[ ]> the same as ignorable whitespace? We say no.
> 
> In this area, as in some others, the XML specification errata need to
> get updated.  This is test that I called attention to in the review.
> (It came from some XML-Dev discussions, where Microsoft was silent.)
> 
> In the absence of W3C errata ruling out this handling, I can't see a
> compelling reason for the NIST/OASIS suite to change.  (Tim, I'm sorry
> to say that your posted opinion doesn't count as much with me as W3C
> errata would ... particularly since I can trace paths through the XML
> spec justifying the contrary opinion!  ;-)

Microsoft is right on this one.  See

 http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E28

I have to say I think it's inappropriate for the NIST/OASIS test suite
to include controversial cases, where there are legitimate differences
of opinion on the correct interpretation of the spec that are not
resolved by the errata.

James


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From abisheks at india.hp.com  Sat Jan 15 14:29:19 2000
From: abisheks at india.hp.com (Abhishek Srivastava)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Type "Any"
Message-ID: <00e301bf5f64$baf1cb80$252f0a0f@india.hp.com>

Hi,

Can I define an element to type "ANY" in a DTD.

I am writing a program that can receive any xml message as requests and
it it builds an XML response for that. Since I do not know what the incoming 
request structure will be, I want to declare an element of type "any" in my 
response DTD so that the entire request message can be substituted in place of
type any and still my document conforms to my DTD.

One solution can be that I do not use a DTD at all, there by I'll be free to insert 
any well formed tag into my document. But the response that I am building has 
other xml elements also that need to be validated against a DTD.

I'll be grateful for your reply.

Thanks,
Abhishek.
 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    _/               Abhishek Srivastava
   _/                Hewlett Packard ISO       
  _/_/_/   _/_/_/    -------------------   
 _/    /   _/   _/     (Work)   +91-80-2251554 x1190
_/  _/   _/_/_/      (Ip)     15.10.47.37            
        _/           (Url)    http://sites.netscape.net/abhishes/index.html                        
       _/            
                     Work like you don't need the money.
                     Dance like no one is watching.
                     And love like you've never been hurt.
                     --Mark Twain                       
                     
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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From eliot at isogen.com  Sat Jan 15 17:28:48 2000
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Draft of Paper: Using UML to Define XML DTDs
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net> <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>
 <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com>
Message-ID: <3880AE42.D7E63102@isogen.com>

I've posted to my Web site a draft of a paper I'm developing on a
technique for using UML to define XML DTDs. I'd be grateful for any
review and feedback that y'all might be willing to provide. The URL is
<http://www.drmacro.com/hyprlink/uml-dtds.pdf> (about 100K in size).

I think the technique has some very attractive features compared with,
for example, using an XML-schema type approach for development and
management of DTDs (although it is not necessarily a competitor with XML
Schema as XML Schemas are one possible result that can be generated from
the UML models).

The basic idea is quite simple: I defined a set of types that reflect
the syntactic constructs of XML needed to define document types (element
types, attributes, etc.) and then use those types as stereotypes in
models that represent DTDs as implementation models (in the UML sense of
implementation models). The implementation model is intended to be
translated directly into some DTD syntax (normal declarations, XML
Schema, XDR, etc.) and so is analogous to using UML to define object
models that are translated directly into code.  Because the models are
defined in UML you get nice graphical representations for free, you can
tighly bind documentation to the model, and you can formally relate the
implementation model to higher-level analysis models that the DTD is an
implementation of, and of course you can use existing UML-base CASE
tools to do the development work. You can also use XMI as the normative
representation format (which allows, for example, quite sophisticated
documentation structures to be included in the model). You also get true
modularization and name mapping pretty much for free using UML's package
facilities. 

I'm pretty happy with the design at this point, although I haven't
applied it to enough examples yet to be confident it is complete. The
paper does include a tutorial example DTD defined using the approach.

Thanks,

Eliot

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 15 18:13:40 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Draft of Paper: Using UML to Define XML DTDs
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net> <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>
	 <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com> <3880AE42.D7E63102@isogen.com>
Message-ID: <3880B7D7.1CF4@hiwaay.net>

W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
> 
> I've posted to my Web site a draft of a paper I'm developing on a
> technique for using UML to define XML DTDs. 

> You also get true
> modularization and name mapping pretty much for free using UML's package
> facilities.
> 
> I'm pretty happy with the design at this point, although I haven't
> applied it to enough examples yet to be confident it is complete. The
> paper does include a tutorial example DTD defined using the approach.

I have to forward this to work where I have a PDF player (home machine
is 
loaded up to bursting).  Did you include a means to push the UML
diagrams 
out as SVG?  Would be handy for online browsing.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 15 18:15:24 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
References: <3.0.32.20000113151031.01498690@pop.intergate.ca> <387E9ECB.3B0F@hiwaay.net> <387FF1B9.50DA@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3880B845.21E7@hiwaay.net>

i forgot about an oldie but goodie: complete separation of format and
 content

 the "You mean I have to code this to DO something? who said?!? " look
on
 a programmer's face when you give one a DTD.  :-) 

 len


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sat Jan 15 18:22:15 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net> <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net> <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com>
Message-ID: <3880BAD1.880D81D7@pacbell.net>

James Clark wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote:
> >
> > "Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> >
> > * Is <![CDATA[ ]> the same as ignorable whitespace? We say no.
> >
> > In this area, as in some others, the XML specification errata need to
> > get updated.  This is test that I called attention to in the review.
> > (It came from some XML-Dev discussions, where Microsoft was silent.)
> >
> > In the absence of W3C errata ruling out this handling, ...
> 
> Microsoft is right on this one.  See
> 
>  http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E28

Hmm, errata updated (previous 2/17/1999) ... YESTERDAY!!

Good news that they got updated, though from the evidence
the corrections have been sitting on the shelf for about
seven months now. Prompt publication would have helped
everyone; for example, the first published version of those
tests would likely have addressed then-current errata.


> I have to say I think it's inappropriate for the NIST/OASIS test suite
> to include controversial cases, where there are legitimate differences
> of opinion on the correct interpretation of the spec that are not
> resolved by the errata.

As I recall, when this case was incorporated there was no
known controversy.  There had been a discussion, and it had
seemed to be settled -- which is how that case got in.  Any
controversy came by later.

At any rate, that issue can now be fully laid to rest, since
more of the errata are now published.  And I will hope that
the test suite gets promptly updated.

- Dave

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From eliot at isogen.com  Sat Jan 15 18:24:33 2000
From: eliot at isogen.com (W. Eliot Kimber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Draft of Paper: Using UML to Define XML DTDs
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net> <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>
 <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com> <3880AE42.D7E63102@isogen.com>
 <3880B7D7.1CF4@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3880BB4A.E8B34D87@isogen.com>

Len Bullard wrote:
> 
> W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
> >
> > I've posted to my Web site a draft of a paper I'm developing on a
> > technique for using UML to define XML DTDs.

> 
> I have to forward this to work where I have a PDF player (home machine
> is
> loaded up to bursting).  Did you include a means to push the UML
> diagrams
> out as SVG?  Would be handy for online browsing.

The tool I'm using (ObjectDomain, www.objectdomain.com) doesn't generate
SVG, only WMF, GIF, and some format I'm not familiar with. If anybody
wants the model I can export it out in several formats (or you can
download an eval copy of ObjectDomain (it's Java based, so it runs
pretty much everywhere).

Cheers,

E.

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sat Jan 15 18:47:13 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:13 2004
Subject: Great controversies of XML
References: <3.0.32.20000113151031.01498690@pop.intergate.ca>
	 <387E9ECB.3B0F@hiwaay.net> <387FF1B9.50DA@hiwaay.net> <3880B845.21E7@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3880C0A5.54B63FFD@pacbell.net>

And certainly an XML-DEV controversy, about "greater XML":

   Why aren't W3C processes really open?

;-)

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sat Jan 15 18:58:41 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <3880BAD1.880D81D7@pacbell.net>
References: <200001140440.XAA09297@hesketh.net>
 <387F6C29.90084ADA@pacbell.net>
 <38800E65.CF48C00F@jclark.com>
Message-ID: <200001151858.NAA10268@hesketh.net>

At 10:22 AM 1/15/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>James Clark wrote:
>> Microsoft is right on this one.  See
>> 
>>  http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E28
>
>Hmm, errata updated (previous 2/17/1999) ... YESTERDAY!!

Wow.  That's enormous. My old copy of the errata was 7K, and this is 31K.

As much as I appreciate that the W3C is busy, getting this out a lot
earlier would have been useful, to say the least.  A lot of the dates on
these are _very_ old.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From david at megginson.com  Sat Jan 15 20:18:38 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: Tim Bray's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 15:57:15 -0800"
References: <3.0.32.20000114155208.014b5ce0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <m3ln5rf5ry.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> writes:

> At 12:13 PM 1/14/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:

> >The reason not to mandate it is that there are non-parser
> >applictions of SAX, where it's unreasonable to demand that
> >the event source guarantee such interning.
> 
> Really?  Could you expand on that? 
> 
> Mind you, this debate on what is really a fairly minor piece of SAX
> is probably coming approaching a negative cost-benefit ratio.

I'm willing to listen for a couple more days before flipping a coin.

I'll be ready for a SAX2 beta release in a few days, by the way -- I
already have it running here (through a ParserAdapter) happily spewing 
out what looks like correct Namespace-related stuff.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Sat Jan 15 21:09:58 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: announce: XML Tips
Message-ID: <3880896B.50B9F1A@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

I have added some more examples to my "quick and dirty hack to bind XML
to objects" showing how to use the objects (which had previously been
created out of XML data) in a stylesheet in servlet mode.

In the version of this example using the ozone oodbms, the stylesheet
has been enhanced to manipulate request info (PATH_INFO and parameters)
and allows to create, import, display and delete the object.

It's still not rocket science ;=) , but I have been impressed by the
power of the basic techniques used in this example and I thought I
should try to share this experience.

The url is :
http://downloads.dyomedea.com/java/xmlbinder/com/dyomedea/xmlbind/examples/

To avoid continuing to take bandwidth on this high traffic list I have
also started a new list (xml-tips@egroups.com) dedicated to sharing tips
and information about the core techniques used to build an information
system using XML, XSL and Java. 

You can subscribe at xml-tips-subscribe@eGroups.com or learn more about
it at http://www.egroups.com/group/xml-tips/fullinfo.html

Thanks for your time.

Eric

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 15 21:16:36 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

After an hour of jogging (too bad, we do not have enough snow this week for
skate skiing), and a week struggling with the DOM I discovered something
interesting. He decided to interview my three fellow in this story: the
victim, the iconoclast and the believer.

The victim point of view:
Suppose that you developed an application based on the OMG IDL, to be more
precise a C++ application. So, when the DOM 1 recommendations where
published you wrote a DOM 1 set of interfaces in the OMG IDL format, used
the IDL compiler to translate the interface into C++ code, Got even the zeal
to compile a Java code version, let it cook in the oven for 5 minutes,
waited a couple hours until it is cool enough, implemented the code, and
finally got a DOM level 1 component. You where proud of your accomplishment.

Then, you started to make some experiment, plugged your DOM level 1
component with some DOM level 1 consumers, got surprised that it works, and
thought gee what a beautiful day...until DOM 2 came....

You then discovered something funny, they expended several interfaces with
new members. Bang W3C caused a mini version of the Y2K bug in your own
garden. You didn't got the time to fill your cellar with enough provision to
go through it. This is it! DOM 2 made it, the millennium catastrophe, you
where simply clueless on how briliant people can bring you so much
trouble....a courtesy of W3G (please maestro, can you play for the
circumstances "Also Spreach Zaratoustra" or maybe the Mozart Reqiem would
more appropriate - what are you recommending me :-).

Why did we ended there?

a) the C++ DOM level 1 client that you where using understood the DOM1
interface. the IDL compiler that you used translated the interface into a
virtual table. To make things simple a virtual table is a table of pointer
to functions. In C++, this virtual table is fixed and not expandable. Thus,
if you change the vTable, then the client will not be able to interface to
your component. Moreover, the new java client version that you just bought
do not work with your DOM level 1 component even if the manufacturer said
that it was compatible with your object broker (they said that they improved
it, made bug fixes, made it faster, you simply just could resist to get it)
b) Then to correct things, you simply write the DOM 2 interface as
recommended (even with a bit of zeal), compile it, let it cook...and bang
this time the is the other components that not work any more.  Because you
changed the vtable, itself the result of the IDL compilation, and because
nothing is said in the OMG specs on how to implement an interface, then,
using this freedom, the object broker manufacturer used a vtable, thinking
that it makes sense. But, the end result being that now you have an
impedance mismatch between two components, one that can only understand the
DOM1 interface and the other the DOM2 interface.

the iconoclast point of view now:
If W3C made its work properly, they would have first defined the DOM1
interface, and thought seriously about legacy maintenance, backward
compatibility, component robustness, etc... In simple words did a good
software engineering job.
What we would expect from the recommendations?
a) that a component implementing only the DOM 1 interface would be able to
work with a client that understand either the DOM1 or the DOM2 interface.
And vise versa. What this means? That the object would allow evolution and
backward compatibility by providing the possibility to query the interface.
For example, if the client can understand only a DOM1 node interface, then
it can query for a DOM1 node interface and do its work even if the provider
supports the DOM1 and DOM2 interfaces. I do not get it, he said, a bit
puzzled that W3C made such a big mistake. Ok let's recap

a) we define all interfaces as contracts something that is stable throughout
the time. A contract that can be fulfilled even if the components evolve. A
contract that can be fulfilled in spite of the component evolution. If we
change the contract we simply create a new one. If we change the interface,
we simply create a new one.
b) to do so, we have a mechanism to query the interface and get the right
one.

What? they say that your object broker should deal with that? Then how the
object broker can differentiate between two interfaces having the same name
but not the same specification? This is not mentionned in the OMG specs, so,
how can we expect that they would do it in a standard way?

What? they say, just recompile the code. but what do we do if we do not have
the source code?

What? they say, you're not suppose to have backward compatibility,
manufacturers should make some money and therefore you have to buy again all
the components each time a new recommendation is out. So, fine, please,
include this as a note to the recommendations please :-)

The believer point of view:
OK, the humans are born with good intentions, only the society corrupts them
(who said that? Jean Jacques Rousseau?). The WG didn't thought about
backward compatibility and good software engineering practices. But the next
recommendation will probably address these concerns. After all, these people
listen to our concerns. Or probably they got the following problem, they
wanted that the object to be called a node even if the interface evolves. If
we would have a backward compatibility process, then the interface would
have to be renamed and thus we would end up with an interface having the
name "node124" in the year 2020. Yes indeed this is a weakness of the OMG
model. But waht if we call the node "node_l1" or node_l2" OK "node_l124" is
not as esthetically appealing as simply "node" but at least, we know to whom
with interface and you know these days, it is preferable to know to whom you
interface :-). Seriously, they will address this concern, after all, I am a
believer.


And you, what are you? Have you given some thought about this issue. Is the
DOM a never ending prototype or a component definition with support for
backward compatibility and evolution (able to balance both). Also, did
someone experimented a DOM 1 or DOM 2 component compiled with a certain
manufacturer IDL and then tried to interface with a fully compliant OMG
component compiled with a different manufacturer IDL. Where you able to make
both work together? Especially in the same address space. Personally I was
able to do it if both where communicating on a socket using IIOP. Each one
running in a different address space.

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 15 21:43:37 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000115134052.014b6ca0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 01:58 PM 1/15/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
>As much as I appreciate that the W3C is busy, getting this out a lot
>earlier would have been useful, to say the least.  A lot of the dates on
>these are _very_ old.

Mea culpa, more than anyone else.  But it's a symptom of the W3C's 
#1 problem, lack of resources.  I've been busy helping get XLink done.
CMSMCQ's been busy helping get schema done.  JeanPa's been busy getting
MS Office to do something sensible with XML, a little bird tells me.  It
was tough to lay any of these tasks aside to put in the errata work.

For some reason Francois Yergeau's name doesn't appear anywhere on this,
which is nuts; it probably wouldn't have come out without a massive 
effort on on his part in the collation and organization of the Syntax
WG's efforst.  -Tim

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 15 22:11:54 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKHELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

The realist point of view:
maybe, the W3C DOM WG sees the issue of impedance mismatch between
components caused by the evolution of interfaces as an implementer issue. If
that is the case, then let's create an XML-Dev recommendation.

The implementer point of view:
Yee, we did it for SAX, let's do it for DOM components.

a) the first task is then to specify mechanism used by a DOM client to query
a DOM provider about its DOM level support. The interfaces stay as the W3C
workgroup defined it for each level.

b) Other alternative interface mechanisms are also existing for instance
DCOM IDLs (controlled by Microsoft), and XPCOM IDLs (controlled by the
Mozilla group). The original recommendations already specify OMG IDLs
(controlled by a group of manufacturer), Java interfaces (the Java language
and brand is controlled by SUN) and JavaScript (JavaScript is controlled by
ECMA). For those thinking that DCOM is evil and working solely on Windows,
then what about the WINE project and a DCOM implementation working on Linux?
So, to include in the XML-DEV DOM recommendation other DOM specifications
actually missing in the W3C recommendation. Why this? take for instance the
Microsoft implementation of the DOM. They added new members to the actual
W3C recommended interface. I cannot blame them W3C is doing the same thing
to their own recommendations from DOM versions to DOM versions. However, the
problem of incompatibility between DOM component consumers and providers is
also present in that case. Just to take this case as an example and the
impact in about 150 million machines up there in the field - just stop for a
moment and think about the impact of forgetting a DCOM specification in the
w3C recommendations - 150 millions machines. Normally, the interface should
be defined as:

interface node
{
... have the DOM recommendation members here ....
}

interface nodeEx: node
{
.... have the Microsoft extended stuff here ....
}

The latter inherit from the former. Because DCOM as XPCOM has the notion of
interface querying, then they can resolve the issue by letter the consumer
query for strctly standard compliant interface or the extended one. (Please
take note here that I not say the the extended interface is a bad thing but
that the client should be able to query for a strictly compliant interface
or an extension.)

This way, a strict DOM1 compliant DCOM client can interface with a Microsoft
component. Actually, it is impossible and the two interfaces do not match.

So, the first task for an XML-DEV recommendation for DOM components:
We need an interface definition to allow the clients to probe for DOM
support, get a DOM level 1 or DOM level 2 collection of interface. A kind of
DOM factory in a certain way. If this is present, then the interface may
change freely, the clients can obtain an interface collection compliant to
what the client understand. Other point, not to repeat W3C mistakes by
omitting important interface definition thus to include:
OMG IDL
XPCOM
DCOM
Java
JavaScript

In the case of the last two, these are languages and not interface
definition. So somebody can say why not then define Python or TCL interfaces
or object definition. They would be right and if these people are good
enough to write it, we can include it in the document.

Any suggestions? comments?
Should I instead play a lullaby and let you sleep? :-)

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Sat Jan 15 22:54:38 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AC08@RED-MSG-08>

Actually, the claim that men are born innocent and corrupted by the world
goes back at least as far as Plato (see, for example, his myth of the
Demiorgos and recalcitrant matter).

Regarding Didier's point that contracts once made should not be broken; and
that changing an interface incompatibly represents breaking a contract; I
agree.


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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Sun Jan 16 01:17:27 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <m3ln5rf5ry.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001152009320.9766-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On 15 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:
> Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> writes:
> > At 12:13 PM 1/14/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> > >The reason not to mandate it is that there are non-parser
> > >applictions of SAX, where it's unreasonable to demand that
> > >the event source guarantee such interning.
> > 
> > Really?  Could you expand on that? 
>
> I'm willing to listen for a couple more days before flipping a coin.

Could we tag the "name-postfix/name-prefix/name-space" as
a InternString or other class to make the requirement explicit?
InternString could have *private* constructor, and a static
factory method to ensure that the policy is enforced.  Too bad
String is final. Is there another singular point of control 
that can be seized  upon to shield application-emitters?  
Perhaps a QName object?  


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From ray at xmission.com  Sun Jan 16 02:43:10 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <3881345D.A0B99A2C@xmission.com>

Didier PH Martin wrote:

[...]

A few notes to hopefully help you understand these issues.  I could be wrong on a minor
point or two, but I think my explanation is generally correct:

1.  The CORBA IDL interface of DOM is not intended to be functional, but rather only a
language-neutral way of expressing the interfaces.  It is not clear to me whether a
functional CORBA binding is useful given that if the objects are independently remote,
the efficiency problems may be too difficult, and if they are local, you probably wanted
a more-local implementation.  CORBA has not done a great job of hosting local objects.
IIOP is more robust than a local invocation.  The spec is silent on the topic, so you
apparently cannot expect local objects to interoperate between ORBs.

2.  Such an interwoven model as the DOM needs version covariance, which if you are
limited to fixed interfaces produces extreme fragmentation and loses the real type
identity of objects when you try to covary them in a graph, as is required for DOM level
2, not to mention that invariant interfaces would force the simplest navigation
operations in loops to involve typecasting for operations as every-day as checking the
namespace.  Fixed interfaces work fine in large services, but not in fine-grained object
models.  The DOM level is hierarchy-by-hierarchy, not node by node.  Discovering a level
1 node in the middle of a level 2 hierarchy would be catastrophic, yet that's all the
navigation methods guarantee if you stick with fixed interfaces without duplicating most
methods.  The so-called interface contract simply isn't adequate in this type of setting
which requires covariance.  A node is still a node within a level 2 hierarchy, even with
a namespace attribute added.  A node would not be a node within a level 2 hierarchy with
no namespaceURI attribute, even though it was a node in a level 1 hierarchy with no
namespaceURI attribute.  Intermixed success and failure of level 2 methods within a
hierarchy would be intolerable in many cases.  You check the level before you start to
perform operations, not by querying each node.

3.  Inflexible languages may wish to supply a seperate implementation for distinct levels
to solve the covariance problem.  But a good number of bindings including IIOP, Java,
Javascript, and so on can easily expand existing interfaces.  This turns out to be a very
useful balance between splintering interfaces and objects without type.  Objects have
type, but the type is guaranteed as a complete hierarchy.  Level 1 and level 2 clients
can coexist with level 1 and 2 implementations in languages with enough flexibility.  It
would be strange, for example, to force Javascript to query different interfaces for core
features clearly part of the same object just because of other languages that must do it
that way.

4.  C++ by itself lacks enough mechanism to be binary-compatible with more than one
version at a time.  Environments which expect reusability of binary objects between
shared libraries define something beyond the standard C++ language to prevent shifts in
the binary protocols.  Some fix the fundamental fragility of C++ vtables, and some do
not.  Some allow the interfaces to grow, and some do not.  Raw C++ expects no migration
of objects, so it is natural that a C++ binding would never expect to be compatible with
more than one level at a time.

5.  The common-yet-unstandardized CORBA approach of just handing C++ servants from a
separately-compiled library to a C++ client is the least-robust C++ model I have seen.
Certain CORBA C++ implementations are more robust, such as SOM-based ones, I believe.
The language bindings of the DOM are not auto-generated from the CORBA IDL -- each
binding is permitted to do what is appropriate to the language to expand the interface.
In COM, for example, an extension interface is added to an object to add methods.  Since
C++ lacks any standard solution to the problem you will find a variety of solutions
depending upon the hosting object model's binding capability, and how flexible it is.  I
have raised the issue and called for robustness in the CORBA spec (in addition to what is
already present in the IIOP spec).  But so many really are only using CORBA for remote
objects, so it isn't clear if it is a useful pursuit.  It is not hard to do in C++ if the
spec were to call for it, and it could be standardized so that local objects would be
interoperable between ORBs.

I am working on my own C++ binding for DOM right now that has none of the traditional C++
fragility problems, again, by introducing a more-robust object model, which I call CROS
(C++ Runtime Object Standard)...

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From ray at xmission.com  Sun Jan 16 02:55:04 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKHELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com>

Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Hi,
>
> The realist point of view:
> maybe, the W3C DOM WG sees the issue of impedance mismatch between
> components caused by the evolution of interfaces as an implementer issue. If
> that is the case, then let's create an XML-Dev recommendation.
>
> The implementer point of view:
> Yee, we did it for SAX, let's do it for DOM components.
>
> a) the first task is then to specify mechanism used by a DOM client to query
> a DOM provider about its DOM level support. The interfaces stay as the W3C
> workgroup defined it for each level.

What do you feel is needed beyond the current W3C DOM standard methods for querying the
levels and modules of support in a DOM implementation?

COM/DCOM is already anticipated to divide into separate interfaces for expansion, because
that is how that object model handles expansion.  Different models/bindings have the
freedom to expand in the way most suitable to the binding.  Don't expect every other
language to follow suite, for example in Javascript where expansion is simply done
directly to the object -- even if it is just COM objects supplying the implementation
because an IDispatch approach is taken to supply a non-segmented interface if I
understand it correctly.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 16 03:06:25 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <3.0.32.20000114155208.014b5ce0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388135AB.82CF44F2@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 12:13 PM 1/14/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
> >The reason not to mandate it is that there are non-parser
> >applictions of SAX, where it's unreasonable to demand that
> >the event source guarantee such interning.
> 
> Really?  Could you expand on that?

I was thinking of examples ... keep in mind that the consumer
of these events could be lots of things:  something that writes
out XML text over a socket, something building a DOM, something
that does XSLT transforms, etc.


FIRST example, a type that I think will be common, is one that
it's actually easy to demand that the interning happen.  Namely,
objects that know how to print themselves as XML, likely an element.

That element structure won't be dynamically determined, at least
in my playbook (Keep It Simple, Stupe!) so that names of elements
and attributes, and namespace URIs, will most naturally be string
constants and hence automagically interned.

Some people may use different playbooks, focussed on their favorite
generic framework for object<-->XML conversions, that may work the
other way around and find interning to be extra work.


SECOND example could reasonably be viewed as a kind of parser:
it's something that walks all or part of a DOM tree.  With such
trees there's no guarantee that interning is done on names or URIs.

Trees built by hand will _sometimes_ use literals (interned), trees
built using SAX parsers will often have interned strings (viz. many
previous discussion), but there are also ones built using other tools,
say databases with element names, for which the names/URIs wouldn't
normally be interned.  I've seen all three ways to build DOMs.


THIRD example is similar to a combination of the previous two:
someone uses a custom data structure, lighter weight than DOM but
general enough to handle all their data, and then uses that data
to regenerate a stream of SAX events (sent to socket, etc).

This one's intentionally a bit hand-wavey, since the goal is to
optimize for some problem to which XML (and SAX, and DOM) are very
much incidental.  Since the structures are task-optimized, it's
not certain that interning will be desirable.


Now in all of those cases one could define a postprocessor that
interns all the strings going through startElement()/PI()/... and
so on, but that can be a lot of extra work that may not be needed.
And extra work is always undesired.

Ergo my feeling that it's better to just expose whether the event
producer is doing the interning, than to require it always be done.

(phew!)


> Mind you, this debate on what is really a fairly minor piece of SAX
> is probably coming approaching a negative cost-benefit ratio.

You noticed too?  :-)

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 16 03:39:59 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com> <3881345D.A0B99A2C@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <38813D85.1ADE27CB@pacbell.net>

As Ray implied, IDL wasn't originally intended for same-address-space
calls, except to stubs for remote objects ... as I can testify, having
worked on the original design.  (A long time ago!  Nowadays, I tell
folk that the web delivered what we had wanted CORBA to deliver, before
it got strange.  I've observed that always happens with RPCs; some
lusting after world domination seems to enter the picture, making
bottom-up-growth fail.)

However, note that there should be no problem with a DOM L1 client
invoking a DOM L2 server, since the on-the-wire protocol for those
existing methods didn't change.  And if an L2 client asks whether
it server has L2 functionality, it can avoid ever seeing the system
exception indicating that an L1 server doesn't know about the new
methods.  (Didier, you implied that functionality is missing -- not!)

Re the problems of defining a cross-language binary-compatible runtime
that has a natural versioning model as well as an API that maps cleanly
and efficiently to C++, Java, C, and the other languages that folk have
demanded CORBA address ... well, let's just say that memory management
is only one of the nasty problems that causes exquisite agony, and say
that despite all the patents filed for in that area, no solution works
particularly nicely.  Most "ABI" standards (ABI == Application Binary
Interface) only handle a small set of those issues, and haven't caught
on well; to get a multi-ORB ABI going has provably demanded more than
any vendor has yet wanted to support.

That said ... I think I would agree that changing already-published
interfaces was pretty much against the spirit of IDL.  It'd have been
much more natural to define a new module (C++ namespace, Java package)
that inherited the old interfaces and added new methods:  no change
of current interfaces/contracts.  IDL has multiple interface inheritance
to allow that style of evolution, among other reasons.

> And you, what are you?

I've been a victim in this case (don't use JDK 1.1 if you need to mix
DOM implementations with different versions, JDK 1.2 is needed); and
certainly an iconoclast (see above).  And there's perhaps too much
cynic in me lately ... ;-)


- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 16 03:46:17 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
References: <14463.20447.484648.493917@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <38813F00.E9309D4E@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
>  public static String makeAbsoluteURL (String url);

What would this do differently from the 

	URL u = new URL (baseURL, relativeURL);

constructor -- beyond using strings instead of URLs?

In any case, either an URL is already absolute, or it's relative
to some other URL ... so that's missing an argument!

- Dave

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Sun Jan 16 06:34:03 2000
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <3880BAD1.880D81D7@pacbell.net> from "David Brownell" at Jan 15, 0 10:22:09 am
Message-ID: <200001160642.BAA26195@locke.ccil.org>

David Brownell scripsit:

> Hmm, errata updated (previous 2/17/1999) ... YESTERDAY!!
> 
> Good news that they got updated, though from the evidence
> the corrections have been sitting on the shelf for about
> seven months now. Prompt publication would have helped
> everyone; for example, the first published version of those
> tests would likely have addressed then-current errata.

The former mechanism for publishing those errata went *queep*
and died, and has only recently been reconstituted.

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 14:58:58 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
In-Reply-To: <3881345D.A0B99A2C@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ray,
Ray said:
1.  The CORBA IDL interface of DOM is not intended to be functional, but
rather only a
language-neutral way of expressing the interfaces.  It is not clear to me
whether a
functional CORBA binding is useful given that if the objects are
independently remote,
the efficiency problems may be too difficult, and if they are local, you
probably wanted
a more-local implementation.  CORBA has not done a great job of hosting
local objects.
IIOP is more robust than a local invocation.  The spec is silent on the
topic, so you
apparently cannot expect local objects to interoperate between ORBs.

Didier reply:
Why then also include exceptions? If this where simply a template then why
having so much detail. So much details that the interface can be compiled
and mapped to a particular language. This is more than a template. This is a
fuly fonctional OMG IDL. If the intent was to provide just a template, then
it is easy to write an abstract interface without having to use OMG IDL no?
And yes, you are right the OMG spec do not mention anything about in process
usage. Only inter-operability between object through sockets and IIOP is
properly defined. Then, why use an interface definition that is not adapted
to in-process processing? Most of DOM processing will happen in process no?
Then why use an interface definition with a specification specialized for
remote invocation?

Ray said:
2.  Such an interwoven model as the DOM needs version covariance, which if
you are
limited to fixed interfaces produces extreme fragmentation and loses the
real type
identity of objects when you try to covary them in a graph, as is required
for DOM level
2, not to mention that invariant interfaces would force the simplest
navigation
operations in loops to involve typecasting for operations as every-day as
checking the
namespace.  Fixed interfaces work fine in large services, but not in
fine-grained object
models.  The DOM level is hierarchy-by-hierarchy, not node by node.
Discovering a level
1 node in the middle of a level 2 hierarchy would be catastrophic, yet
that's all the
navigation methods guarantee if you stick with fixed interfaces without
duplicating most
methods.  The so-called interface contract simply isn't adequate in this
type of setting
which requires covariance.  A node is still a node within a level 2
hierarchy, even with
a namespace attribute added.  A node would not be a node within a level 2
hierarchy with
no namespaceURI attribute, even though it was a node in a level 1 hierarchy
with no
namespaceURI attribute.  Intermixed success and failure of level 2 methods
within a
hierarchy would be intolerable in many cases.  You check the level before
you start to
perform operations, not by querying each node.


Didier reply:
Yes this is what I proposed in an other posting. To have an interface that a
client can query to obtain the right DOM version before requiring anything
else from the provider.

Ray said:
3.  Inflexible languages may wish to supply a seperate implementation for
distinct levels
to solve the covariance problem.  But a good number of bindings including
IIOP, Java,
Javascript, and so on can easily expand existing interfaces.  This turns out
to be a very
useful balance between splintering interfaces and objects without type.
Objects have
type, but the type is guaranteed as a complete hierarchy.  Level 1 and level
2 clients
can coexist with level 1 and 2 implementations in languages with enough
flexibility.  It
would be strange, for example, to force Javascript to query different
interfaces for core
features clearly part of the same object just because of other languages
that must do it
that way.

Didier reply:
What you mention here is late binding languages as found in most interpreted
languages. With these languages there is no big problems with interface
compatibility. But, as you know, the world is more diverse than than and
early binding language need a clear contract not a piece of soap. So for
early binding languages, you have to know the contract, you have to know the
interface and this latter has to be conformant to a certain specification.

Ray said:
4.  C++ by itself lacks enough mechanism to be binary-compatible with more
than one
version at a time.  Environments which expect reusability of binary objects
between
shared libraries define something beyond the standard C++ language to
prevent shifts in
the binary protocols.  Some fix the fundamental fragility of C++ vtables,
and some do
not.  Some allow the interfaces to grow, and some do not.  Raw C++ expects
no migration
of objects, so it is natural that a C++ binding would never expect to be
compatible with
more than one level at a time.

Didier reply:
Ray, for your information, there is some middleware interfacing models up
there such as XPCOM for instance that allows C++ languages or anything else
to provide a certain binary signature. This means that the different
components within the same address space have the same binary signature and
therefore can be binded properly. So, forget about using C++ binding which
obviously will not lead you anywhere. You need a binary signature
convention, so that objects in the same address space can communicate
together. Please, consult the very small doc available at Mozilla.org for
more info on this. And if you are incredulous about how a small bunch of
people did better on this facet than a whole consortium (i.e. OMG), then, I
can only say that talent is not necessarily proportional to the wallet size
:-)

Ray said:
5.  The common-yet-unstandardized CORBA approach of just handing C++
servants from a
separately-compiled library to a C++ client is the least-robust C++ model I
have seen.
Certain CORBA C++ implementations are more robust, such as SOM-based ones, I
believe.
The language bindings of the DOM are not auto-generated from the CORBA
IDL -- each
binding is permitted to do what is appropriate to the language to expand the
interface.
In COM, for example, an extension interface is added to an object to add
methods.  Since
C++ lacks any standard solution to the problem you will find a variety of
solutions
depending upon the hosting object model's binding capability, and how
flexible it is.  I
have raised the issue and called for robustness in the CORBA spec (in
addition to what is
already present in the IIOP spec).  But so many really are only using CORBA
for remote
objects, so it isn't clear if it is a useful pursuit.  It is not hard to do
in C++ if the
spec were to call for it, and it could be standardized so that local objects
would be
interoperable between ORBs.

Didier reply:
I agree that OMG never fully addressed the problem of inter-operability
within a single address space. You are right to mention that the actual
solution is not fulfilling this kind of need actually. In fact, the actual
OMG specs are well adapted for remote invication not for in-process usage.
Therefore, funny to see that a specification not well adapted to
intra-address space usage was used to define the DOM. Probably some
political presure within the DOM WG I presume.

Ray said:
I am working on my own C++ binding for DOM right now that has none of the
traditional C++
fragility problems, again, by introducing a more-robust object model, which
I call CROS
(C++ Runtime Object Standard)...

Didier reply:
OK Ray, in fact, you are proposing a new middleware. Its OK. So now the
question is: is your spec resolving the problem of intr-address space usage?
can I develop a component in, let's say, Python and have it used by an other
one developed in  C++? If yes, you probably defined a binary signature and
if this is the case, please let us know what is your solution. This may be
interesting to learn and probably to use if you provide tool to make it a
reality. Since then, XPCOM is freely available. Or when the WINE project
will have made some progress, their DCOM implementation may be interesting
(but actually lack an IDL compiler).

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 15:50:29 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
In-Reply-To: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ray,

Ray said:
What do you feel is needed beyond the current W3C DOM standard methods for
querying the
levels and modules of support in a DOM implementation?

Didier reply:
Simple. An interface (even defined in OMG IDL) that allows clients to query
the provider DOM level support.

Ray said:
COM/DCOM is already anticipated to divide into separate interfaces for
expansion, because
that is how that object model handles expansion.  Different models/bindings
have the
freedom to expand in the way most suitable to the binding.  Don't expect
every other
language to follow suite, for example in Javascript where expansion is
simply done
directly to the object -- even if it is just COM objects supplying the
implementation
because an IDispatch approach is taken to supply a non-segmented interface
if I
understand it correctly.

Didier reply:
It seems that you missed something Ray. I'll be more explicit and just do
this simple experiment Ray.

a) use, as you said, the actual DOM IDL interface definition as a template
and create a C++ interface with virtual members. This is only if your
compiler creates a structure containing pointers to functions. Right there,
it means that you choused a specific binary signature for your component. If
you publish this binary signature convention, an other component that wants
to interface with your component will have to be able to use this binary
signature. So, right there you have to choose for a practical interface - a
binary signature - for your component.
b) obviously your components would have to be packaged as a shared library
on certain platforms and as DLL on others
c) Now that you made all these choice. Play the following game:

1) create a client component with an interface that added new members. To be
practical, let's say that the original interface was:

class test
{
	void virtual member1() = 0;
	void virtual member2() = 0;
}

Remember that you made the choice that your binary signature is a struct
containing pointers to functions (an arbitrary one, you may choose an other
kind of binary signature). If you are lucky enough that you compiler creates
that with the above construct then we are OK. Otherwise, you may have to
implement it yourself with a C struct. if lucky enough with your class,
derive from it and just make an implementation of each member having a dummy
content like printing or displaying the member name.

2) now, that you have created a component providing a service, let' now
create a client having this interface:

class client
{
	void virtual member1() = 0;
	void virtual member2() = 0;
	void virtual member3() = 0;
}
Question: will this client component work with the provider we created?
Obviously no.

---> Here is what I mean with the notion of contract.

Conclusion:
If we say that the DOM has to be available in any kind of languages.
Actually, the weakness is that the IDL specification chosen was created for
remote invocation not for in-process usage. Right there, the is an impedance
mismatch between the definition and the usage (except if you want to access
a DOM provider at the other end of the globe). So, the usage of an OMG IDL
is not necessarily judicious and may have been justified by politicial
pressure ( I can understand that, after all W3C is a consortium of vendor,
not a representant of users needs). Nonetheless, most of DOM usages are
intra-adress space usage. Thus, the missing parts are:

a) defining the interfaces with at least an IDL and set of specification
that defined a particular binary signature so that components can _really_
talk together within the same address space. I do not say here that the
interfaces should not be defined with the OMG IDL. Someone may have the need
to ask for a DOM service at the other end of the globe :-)). Or to compile
and convert the document in a DOM in an address space and use it in an
other.
b) Defining at least one interface that allows the client to probe the DOM
provider. This interface is a fixed contract and do not change. This way,
the client can query the DOM version throught a permanent interface that do
not vary in time. Then, the client can, from the information received with
that interface use the provider or not. Practically speaking, the client may
understand only DOM 1, the provider may only support DOM 2, then the client
cannot inter-operate with the provider. case 2: the client only understand
DOM1, the provider supports both set of interfaces, the user may obtain the
right interface set from the provider. Even if each interface do not have a
query interface mechanism, the provider may provide the right set of
interfaces.


Note about the query interface on each node:
you know that the DOM is, in some ways, an implementation of the composite
pattern (gamma & al. 1995). Let's say that you have a root interface used to
query the DOM version and obtain the root node. if the elements of the DOM
where designed to support a query interface mechanism, then the root
interface may, in this case, return a node interface. Now let's say that the
DOM is an ever evolving entity and that in year 2020 the root node is not
anymore the "document" node. Then, in this case, if the returned node is
simply a "node" and that a query interface mechanism is provided, then I can
query the "node" for the kind of interface desired, in 2020 that may
probably by a "library" interface :-) Actually, within the current interface
definitions I can't. I have to request for a "document" node, if this
evolves into a library object, then its over, the contract is not respected
any more. The best solution is to provide to the client a "node" object and
then from this object obtain either a "document" or a "library" interface.
This time the contract works. But, let's be indulgent and say that if at
least a non changing interface is provided then a query interface on each
interface is not necessary, the client will know that DOM level-124 (in year
2020) starts with a "library" interface not a "document" interface. So, in
that case, the non-changing interface should return a typeless
interface...hummmm, is that against the OMG interface principles. There we
go, maybe here, a potential Y3K bug in view :-)))

We can also say that the interfaces are simply templates, that the IDL was
used only to please the OMG consortium and that in fact, the IDL is a fad
not to be used in real life. OK, if the recommendation say that I should not
take the IDL for an implementation but only as an inspiration, this is at
least clear that I should not use the IDL for a DOM implementation. Also, if
implicitely it is said that I can do whatever I want with the interfaces,
add or suppress members, then why do we have recommendations then?

I hope that now you see the incongruity of the situation.

Anyway, my proposal is not to judge the DOM WG which had to deal with enough
political pressure from its members. But to help us create truly
inter-operable components by providing enough information to implementers so
that at least, they know what the contract is and how to fulfill it. And
most of all, to provide to users components that are inter-operable, at
least, within the same middleware convention. This is not even the case
today with the actual DOM recommendations.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 16:09:43 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:14 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
In-Reply-To: <38813D85.1ADE27CB@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAELAELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi David,

David said:
However, note that there should be no problem with a DOM L1 client
invoking a DOM L2 server, since the on-the-wire protocol for those
existing methods didn't change.  And if an L2 client asks whether
it server has L2 functionality, it can avoid ever seeing the system
exception indicating that an L1 server doesn't know about the new
methods.  (Didier, you implied that functionality is missing -- not!)

Didier reply:
David, you are right on this point. Some ORB just throw an exception when we
access a non exiting member. I am actually checking where in the OMG specs
it is explicitely mentionned. It discovered that it is not all ORB that has
this behavior. Now the question is: Is this behavior (to throw an exception
when a required member is not there) is a specified characteristic or simply
because some ORB manufacturers are more clever than others. If it is
specified then it is a question of conformance and now the problem is that a
certain bunch of ORB provider do not play the game right. Or that simply
this behavior non conformant because it is not expicitely mentionned in the
specs. But, before going any further on this, I'll do my homework and try to
find this in the specs.

David said:
Re the problems of defining a cross-language binary-compatible runtime
that has a natural versioning model as well as an API that maps cleanly
and efficiently to C++, Java, C, and the other languages that folk have
demanded CORBA address ... well, let's just say that memory management
is only one of the nasty problems that causes exquisite agony, and say
that despite all the patents filed for in that area, no solution works
particularly nicely.  Most "ABI" standards (ABI == Application Binary
Interface) only handle a small set of those issues, and haven't caught
on well; to get a multi-ORB ABI going has provably demanded more than
any vendor has yet wanted to support.

Didier reply:
Yes memory menagement is problematic, I agree. But also to have a single
binary signature convention may be against manufacturers interests since I
am no longer the prisoner of a single ORB vendor.

David said:
That said ... I think I would agree that changing already-published
interfaces was pretty much against the spirit of IDL.  It'd have been
much more natural to define a new module (C++ namespace, Java package)
that inherited the old interfaces and added new methods:  no change
of current interfaces/contracts.  IDL has multiple interface inheritance
to allow that style of evolution, among other reasons.

Didier reply:
Yes I agree on this, on several ORB that I made my test, inheritence is
working well, so, as you said, if suffice to have the new interface to
inherit from the old. That way, we know waht is part of the old contract and
what is part of the new one. Or, as an alternative solution, that the client
may request for a non changing interface to probe for the DOM provider
support level.

David said:
I've been a victim in this case (don't use JDK 1.1 if you need to mix
DOM implementations with different versions, JDK 1.2 is needed); and
certainly an iconoclast (see above).  And there's perhaps too much
cynic in me lately ... ;-)

Didier reply:
Gee, I guess that you got the same problem as I got with JDK 1.1. This why I
am not reacting, I have been also a victim :-)), and as you, an iconoclast
(its natural David, you have enough experience to be a bit iconoclast in
front of stupid things), I am also a believer...that _we_ can do something
to correct things.

PS: Thanks David for your comment about the exception raised when you access
a non present member. You gave me a hint of where to check for a probable
source of the problem (a) something missing in the OMG specs, (b) non
conformance of several ORBs.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sun Jan 16 18:30:27 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAELAELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <38820E2A.8B398EF9@pacbell.net>

Didier PH Martin wrote:
> 
> David, you are right on this point. Some ORB just throw an exception when we
> access a non exiting member. I am actually checking where in the OMG specs
> it is explicitely mentionned. It discovered that it is not all ORB that has
> this behavior. Now the question is: Is this behavior (to throw an exception
> when a required member is not there) is a specified characteristic or simply
> because some ORB manufacturers are more clever than others.

CORBA 1.0 defined an exception for that purpose; I don't know why
any ORB wouldn't report that system exception when the client calls
a method that doesn't exist, other than a bug.  Certainly succeeding
by calling some other method is incorrect.

There's also Node.getOwnerDocument().getImplementation().hasFeature()...


> Yes memory menagement is problematic, I agree. But also to have a single
> binary signature convention may be against manufacturers interests since I
> am no longer the prisoner of a single ORB vendor.

That's another one of the issues.  But "inout" parameters were always
the cause of some major chaos.


> David said:
> That said ... I think I would agree that changing already-published
> interfaces was pretty much against the spirit of IDL.  It'd have been
> much more natural to define a new module (C++ namespace, Java package)
> that inherited the old interfaces and added new methods:  no change
> of current interfaces/contracts.  IDL has multiple interface inheritance
> to allow that style of evolution, among other reasons.
> 
> Didier reply:
> Yes I agree on this, on several ORB that I made my test, inheritence is
> working well, so, as you said, if suffice to have the new interface to
> inherit from the old. That way, we know waht is part of the old contract and
> what is part of the new one.

Again, if it is NOT working in some ORB, it's got bugs that'd make me
avoid using it.  Multiple interface inheritance has again been part of
IDL since CORBA 1.0, and it's not like it's hard to get right.

- Dave

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 19:36:43 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
In-Reply-To: <38820E2A.8B398EF9@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELCELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi David,

I did not made that test with Java but I think that if I do a call to an
interface's member that does not exist, Java throw an exception. Am I right
to say that? So, in the case of Java, we have to implement an exception
handler for non supported members if we want our code to be robust when
consuming a DOM component. If that is the case, let me think of the
advantage of having each time an exception handler for non-supported members
compared to an interface providing the DOM capabilities. On the first
thinking pass, I do not see any advantages.

So, even if CORBA do support exception handling (1), to use such mechanism
to discover the capabilities is not quite good. However, if I understand you
well, you propose to use
Node.getOwnerDocument().getImplementation().hasFeature() for such service.
Did I understood well? If that is the case, I am not able to find the member
"getImplementation" in the DOM specs. Or maybe, you make a proposal for
capability discovery here, is it the case? This implies that we modify again
the node interface to add the member "getimplementation". Or maybe you
meant the "support" member that appeared in DOM 2. So, in fact, we can probe
for the right capabilities only since DOM2.

Let's wrap this up.

a) Actually, if I understand you well, CORBA has for early binding (as well
as for late binding) a mechanism for impedance mismatch between components.
if a member is called and not present in the interface, an exception is
thrown. So far, so good for CORBA implementations.

b) Now for DCOM or XPCOM implementations. a) we consider them out of the
recommendation or non compliant to DOM1 and DOM 2 recommendations since the
interfaces are not encoded in the CORBA IDL and mapped with a CORBA
compliant ORB to a language (for instance C++). b) we consider DCOM and
XPCOM as a compliant implementations and if this is the case, then, we have
a problem since DCOM do not throw exceptions for early binding, only for
late binding. And XPCOM is for the moment only for early binding. Then, in
that case we have a problem with impedance mismatch.

c) if only a CORBA compliant implementation is compliant with the DOM
recommendations then the Mozilla XPCOM or Microsoft or WINE DCOM
implementation of the DOM is non compliant and therefore cannot be called a
DOM 1 or DOM 2 compliant implementation since it is not implemented nor
distributed with a CORBA compliant ORB. If that is the case, only a CORBA
compliant implementation is OK, a Java implementation is OK and a JavaScript
is OK. Everything else not developed with CORBA compliant ORB is not OK.
Then, is java and JavaScript specifications OK even if not generated nor
distributed with a CORBA ORB? Gee, there are some contradictions here


d) The ORB IDL and the java and JavaScript specifications where just
example. There is no obligation to use a CORBA IDL to generate the right
code. The proof of this is that there is no actual CORBA to JavaScript
mapper (Is there any?). IN that case, there exist component specifications
such as XPCOM or DCOM for early binding that may crash if an impedance
mismatch occurs between the provider and the consumer. In that case, and
mainly for early binding, a new non changing interface is required to probe
for capabilities. Obviously we have to provide a mechanism which is backward
compatible. Thus, this mechanism has to allow a client to probe for level
one or level two support (or level n). This even if the DOM 2 recommendation
included in the node interface such probing mechanism but this mechanism is
not part of DOM1, therefore, it is not backward compatible and may cause
problems to COM component consumers, especially the consumers using an early
binding mechanism.

So, basically, either we bannish forever XPCOM and DCOM implementations
(goodby WINE, goodby Mozilla) saying that they do not fit in the CORBA, java
or javaScript world. or that we say that these where only templates,
examples. In this case, we need a non changing interface for consumers to
probe the DOM component capabilities. This mechanism has to work for any DOM
implementation since the DOM 1 recommendation.

David, I am having a hard time to know what is and what is not compliant
now. However, if an XPCOM or a DCOM implementation could be said to be
compliant to a DOM 1 or DOM 2 recommendation, then we need an interface that
does not change to query the DOM capabilities since the node interface seems
to change at each DOM recommendation. And, with XPCOM and DCOM early binding
client, I will get a crash if the wrong interface is addressed. Off course,
I can say that the client is responsible to deal with any situation, etc...
but why not make life easier and have a single place telling the client what
kind of contract is supported by the provider. And again, in the case of
XPCOM or DCOM implementations, and if these latter are said to be compliant
DOM implementations, then this is required since these component protocol
cannot handle interfaces that change all the time.

PS: thanks for the tips about interface inheritance.

----------------------
(1) I am still searching where it is written for early binding - For late
binding, this is obviously the case - I want to put an hand on the exact
location in the specs where it is written for future references.



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From eriblair at mediom.qc.ca  Sun Jan 16 19:49:36 2000
From: eriblair at mediom.qc.ca (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=C9ric_Riblair?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: An XML catalog is a good idea ...
Message-ID: <011801bf605b$42cee910$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca>

Hi,

I need to build an ?lectronic catalog and I think to use an XML approach ... but I don't find anything about how to accomplish it, or about the tools is necessary.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

Eric Riblair,
(eriblair@mediom.com)
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 20:05:04 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
In-Reply-To: <38820E2A.8B398EF9@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEELDELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi David,

After checking twice I discovered that you probably meant (again it may
depend for each IDL to C++ mapping.

Node.get_OwnerDocument().get_Implementation().hasFeature()

Sorry, I was checking for getimplementation but it is more "Implementation"
which is mapped on several IDL to C++ as "get_Implementation()".

So you are right David, DOM level 1 got the capability for level or feature
support probing. However, everything that I said about the impedance
mismatch in the case of early binding about the Mozilla XPCOM, the WINE and
Microsoft DCOM, remains true. Because the node interface changed, the C++
client will simply get a system error also more commonly called an
application crash. So, the solution to have a non-changing interface to
probe the provider capabilities remains, or that W3C declare that XPCOM and
DCOM are heretics that only deserved to be excommunicated from the Web dev
community :-)))


Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sun Jan 16 20:25:41 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <38822705.5848@hiwaay.net>

Didier PH Martin wrote:
> 

> a) we define all interfaces as contracts something that is stable throughout
> the time. A contract that can be fulfilled even if the components evolve. A
> contract that can be fulfilled in spite of the component evolution. If we
> change the contract we simply create a new one. If we change the interface,
> we simply create a new one.

A contract is good for the duration specified.  In this case, the
lifecycle 
intervals of redefinition;  see ISO revision cycles.  It is incumbent on 
the signatories to define what is negotiable at each interval.  The
important 
issue is to establish a parent ROA to which all other namespace owners
are 
signatories, therefore establishing a semantic heritage which is used to 
arbitrate disputes.

> b) to do so, we have a mechanism to query the interface and get the right
> one.
> 
> What? they say that your object broker should deal with that? Then how the
> object broker can differentiate between two interfaces having the same name
> but not the same specification? This is not mentionned in the OMG specs, so,
> how can we expect that they would do it in a standard way?

That is the issue.  You do not have a parent ROA.  Therefore, you have a 
contract which is interpretable in real time and no means to arbitrate.

> What? they say, just recompile the code. but what do we do if we do not have
> the source code?

You did not understand and/or specify your process and its
requirements.  
Oops.
 
> What? they say, you're not suppose to have backward compatibility,
> manufacturers should make some money and therefore you have to buy again all
> the components each time a new recommendation is out. So, fine, please,
> include this as a note to the recommendations please :-)

If they say that and it is conflict with the parent ROA, then they 
are in violation of the contract.  That makes them litigable by whatever 
means is necessary.  What constitutes restitution?

> The believer point of view:
> OK, the humans are born with good intentions, only the society corrupts them
> (who said that? Jean Jacques Rousseau?). 

Corruption is not an issue because you will have to establish mutually 
assured interests.   What you may have is an issue of competence. 

> Yes indeed this is a weakness of the OMG
> model. 

If there is a flaw in the ROA, your remedy can only be postfix.

> And you, what are you? Have you given some thought about this issue. Is the
> DOM a never ending prototype or a component definition with support for
> backward compatibility and evolution (able to balance both). 

If this isn't clear, get clarification.  ISO makes it clear what the 
rules are for the lifecycle.  Some want to throw such out and claim 
a mysterious phenomenon which they do not define and is therefore,
superstious 
assertion about "internet time", a lifecycle too short to make any 
agreements about lifecycle stable contracting practical.  It is, IMO, 
hogwash.  The Internet is not a force of nature or God; it is just code. 
Change to this is certainly subject to stable contracts.

That said, the effort to bring reasonable means to unreasonable 
members of any contract community is the precise goal of law. 
It comes down to honor.

len



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From dturner at microsoft.com  Sun Jan 16 21:34:38 2000
From: dturner at microsoft.com (David Turner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....
Message-ID: <8B57882C41A0D1118F7100805F9F68B5144DAC0E@RED-MSG-45>

Prasad,

For SQL Server you should look at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/xml/articles/xmlsql/sqlxml_prev.asp

David
--------------------------------
David Turner
XML Product Manager
Microsoft Corp. 
-----Original Message-----
From: prasadm@crt.com [mailto:prasadm@crt.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2000 7:44 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool....

Hi All,

We are currently in search of a tool on the web which accepts an SQL query
as the input and gives us back an XML file containing all the results with
the
tags representing the column names of the table being queried.

One such we found is Oracle's XSQL Servlet, but using this we can make only
connections to Oracle database. What if we want to connect to a different
database
like say SQL Server, MS Access, etc.

Another such tool we found is IBM's XML Lightweight Extractor, but this
requires the
query to be specified in a different manner i.e. a "xxx.dtdsa" file must
contain the dtd
of the resulting xml document and also the relationship between the tables
used in the
query. This seems to be of somewhat complex. Although IBM's XLE tool
provides
access to any database (viz. Oracle, DB2, etc) specifying the query in the
required dtdsa format becomes difficult.

Thanks for your time. If anyone knows of any tool, that takes a SQL
query(select) as its
input and returns an XML document, please share it with me.

Thanks in Advance,

Prasad M
Home:-  630-595-0642
Work:-  312-974-6543
prasadm@crt.com <mailto:prasadm@crt.com>



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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Sun Jan 16 21:47:15 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000115134052.014b6ca0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000116121029.00b3b160@shell16.ba.best.com>

With all respect, I think the lack of resources are the fault of the W3C 
membership policies, which seem designed to strongly discourage individuals 
and small organizations and businesses from participating in the process. 
US$5000 for an Affiliate Membership is beyond the reach of most of us and 
of many small businesses since that's in addition to the value of the time 
spent on the process itself.

Whether this policy is because the big players want negotiations to go on 
in secret (and secrecy is inherent in the W3C structure so it can't be an 
accident) or because W3C just can't be bothered with the "little people" is 
a matter of speculation.

What's certainly true is that there is a vast pool of talent available, 
many of whom are passionately interested in the development of XML and 
XML-related standards and might well have more time to spend than the human 
resources on sometimes grudging lend-lease from major corporations. Witness 
this and other lists which represent a collective effort of major 
proportions and a tremendous pool of knowledge and skills.

While we all appreciate the enormous efforts of the organizational 
participants in the W3C process, who've done yeoman service trying to 
juggle activities which might directly advance their careers at their 
organizational home with the community responsibilities of the standards 
process, there just might be a better and more open way.

The Internet standards process started in the RFC methodology, which, 
though sometimes awkward, chaotic, and slow, allowed rapid innovation and 
standardization when warranted and was fully public, ensuring participation 
by the *real* stakeholders in the process, the community served, rather 
than being dominated by the vendors who want to sell products to them.

In one way or another, we're the ones who pay for all this work. Surely a 
way could be found to ensure that we know what the heck is going on. Even 
better, we could help in the initial stages rather than waiting in front of 
the curtain until a team of magicians come out and present us with whatever 
they think we want and are then either cheered or booed off the stage.

Lee Anne

At Saturday 1/15/00 01:42 PM -0800, Tim Bray wrote:

>Mea culpa, more than anyone else.  But it's a symptom of the W3C's
>#1 problem, lack of resources.  I've been busy helping get XLink done.


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Sun Jan 16 22:14:51 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>

I have been preparing a set of XML documents and a collection of XML-aware
tools to introduce newcomers to XML (on our VirtualXML course). I have
encountered a surprisingly number of cases where an XML tool is unable to
read an XML document. [There is not meant to be anything tricky here since
Henry and I are actually trying to demonstrate how to learn XML by doing.
We are not looking to "torture" the tools - more the reverse.]

As a collection of XML documents I took:
	Jon Bosak's Shakespeare	(elements and DTD)
	http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.xml 		(elements, attributes and
DTD (with PEs))
	http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2/			(elements, attributes, entities and
DTD(with PEs and GEs)) [I point out that this is an excellent document for
showing a wide range of XML constructs in a meaningful way.]
	(and a number of examples distributed with tools, including my own).

Here are some of the problems ( I will not list the tools explicitly)
	- tool threw a fatal error because <?xml version="1.0"?> was absent
	- tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing
	- REC-xml and DOM specify DTD but spec.dtd is not mounted
	- One content model in spec.dtd appeared to be inconsistent with the
REC-xml (I may have th wrong spec.dtd but it was downloaded from w3.org)
	- one tool "skipped" general entity references (i.e. did not expand them)
and threw a content model error
	- one tool regarded undeclared parameter entities in comments (in
spec.dtd) as errors
	- several tools regard the absence of a DTD as a fatal error (i.e. they
appear to be validating by default).

As an example, I believe that it is likely that many tools when pointed at:
http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.xml 
will fail. 

I expect that by tweaking some of the tools with commandline switches I
might be able to alter their behaviour, but I am slightly surprised that
some tools will only read validatable files (e.g. the file 

<greeting>Hello World</greeting>

is often not readable (unless "edited" to:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE greeting [
<!ELEMENT greeting (ANY)>
]>
<greeting>Hello World</greeting>
		
Is there a definitive resource anywhere which explicitly states what
behaviour can be expected from various types of parsers? I know it is
inferable from the spec, but I suspect that not all implementers have taken
identical interpretations. I would ideally like to have a matrix of parsers
against standard "correct" [not always "valid"] documents and see how many
conform.

Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
correct tools and that interoperability is achievable. 

	TIA

	P.
(http://www.cmlconsulting.com)


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 16 22:14:21 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: An XML catalog is a good idea ...
In-Reply-To: <011801bf605b$42cee910$1f9ccb84@grr.ulaval.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELFELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Eric,

I am curently working on a parts catalog. So maybe I can help.

But first a question: Is the data for your catalog in a relational data
base?

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
?ric Riblair
  Sent: Sunday, January 16, 2000 2:53 PM
  To: List XML
  Subject: An XML catalog is a good idea ...


  Hi,

  I need to build an ?lectronic catalog and I think to use an XML approach
... but I don't find anything about how to accomplish it, or about the tools
is necessary.

  Thanks in advance for any advice,

  Eric Riblair,
  (eriblair@mediom.com)
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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 00:07:20 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
In-Reply-To: <38813F00.E9309D4E@pacbell.net>
References: <14463.20447.484648.493917@localhost.localdomain>
	<38813F00.E9309D4E@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <14466.23837.28039.862623@localhost.localdomain>

David Brownell writes:

 > >  public static String makeAbsoluteURL (String url);
 > 
 > What would this do differently from the 
 > 
 > 	URL u = new URL (baseURL, relativeURL);
 > 
 > constructor -- beyond using strings instead of URLs?
 > 
 > In any case, either an URL is already absolute, or it's relative
 > to some other URL ... so that's missing an argument!

It's actually based on a method that James Clark wrote a long time ago 
-- it builds a file: URL based on the current directory.

OK, I'm probably going to leave this out, because it's not that hard
to use

  xmlReader.parse(new InputSource(new FileReader(file)));


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From edd at usefulinc.com  Mon Jan 17 00:16:18 2000
From: edd at usefulinc.com (Edd Dumbill)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>; from peter@ursus.demon.co.uk on Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 10:19:28PM +0000
References: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com> <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com> <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <20000117001501.C1924@usefulinc.com>

On Mon, Jan 17, 2000 at 10:19:28PM +0000, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> Is there a definitive resource anywhere which explicitly states what
> behaviour can be expected from various types of parsers? I know it is
> inferable from the spec, but I suspect that not all implementers have taken
> identical interpretations. I would ideally like to have a matrix of parsers
> against standard "correct" [not always "valid"] documents and see how many
> conform.

David Brownell's conformance testing using the NIST/OASIS test suite may
be of some help here (see
<http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/09/conformance/index.html> and 
<http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/11/parser/index.html>) although several of
the tools tested have had new releases since the time of testing.

The output of his test runs show a comprehensive report, e.g. see
http://www.xml.com/1999/09/conformance/reports/report-xp.html for the
results for XP.

Also, see recent threads on this list concerning the recently published
XML 1.0 errata and their bearing on the NIST/OASIS test suite.  (There
is an XMLhack story with links to the relevant messages, see
<http://xmlhack.com/read.php?item=216>)

> Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
> correct tools and that interoperability is achievable. 

It is perhaps a little unfortunate that you're having to put effort into
showing this. However, it is my impression that most XML parser vendors
are taking XML 1.0 compliance seriously.

It also sets off an interesting train of enquiry. Aside from David's
conformance tests, how many other people have tried to prove parser
interoperability in development or production situations, and with what
results?

Edd

-- 
Edd Dumbill ----/ voice: +44 702-093-6870 fax: +44 870-164-0230 /----
 | Managing Editor, XML.com                          <http://xml.com>
 | Publishing Editor, XMLhack.com                <http://xmlhack.com>

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 00:30:02 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: Lee Anne Phillips's message of "Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:59:22 -0800"
References: <4.2.0.58.20000116121029.00b3b160@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <m3puv1fslt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Lee Anne Phillips <leeanne@leeanne.com> writes:

> With all respect, I think the lack of resources are the fault of the
> W3C membership policies, which seem designed to strongly discourage
> individuals and small organizations and businesses from
> participating in the process.  US$5000 for an Affiliate Membership
> is beyond the reach of most of us and of many small businesses since
> that's in addition to the value of the time spent on the process
> itself.

Actually, the W3C XML Activity actively recruits invited experts who
do not work for member companies, including Tim Bray, the person
you're replying to, though I agree that's not the same as a real open
process.

That said, I think the biggest problem for small companies isn't the
$5K/year membership fee (though that's bad enough) but the
$50K-$100K++/year of lost work time and travel costs even just to
allow one competent engineer to participate.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan 17 00:42:55 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <20000117001501.C1924@usefulinc.com>
References: <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
 <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com>
 <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
 <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <E12A0Fs-000Kv3-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>

At 12:15 AM 1/17/00 +0000, Edd Dumbill wrote:
>
>David Brownell's conformance testing using the NIST/OASIS test suite may
>be of some help here (see
><http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/09/conformance/index.html> and 
><http://www.xml.com/pub/1999/11/parser/index.html>) although several of
>the tools tested have had new releases since the time of testing.
>
>The output of his test runs show a comprehensive report, e.g. see
>http://www.xml.com/1999/09/conformance/reports/report-xp.html for the
>results for XP.

Yes indeed - I found this extremely useful. [I was also concerned at the 
relatively low conformance of some tools...] I always take XP as the gold
standard.
This is fine when the tools allow interchange of parsers (e.g. SAX-based) but
some are more hardwired.

>
>Also, see recent threads on this list concerning the recently published
>XML 1.0 errata and their bearing on the NIST/OASIS test suite.  (There
>is an XMLhack story with links to the relevant messages, see
><http://xmlhack.com/read.php?item=216>)

>
>> Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
>> correct tools and that interoperability is achievable. 
>
>It is perhaps a little unfortunate that you're having to put effort into
>showing this. However, it is my impression that most XML parser vendors
>are taking XML 1.0 compliance seriously.

I think they are. The question of exactly what a validating and non-validating
parsers should do has caused a great deal of discussion in the past and 
I am not clear whether it has been settled.

>
>It also sets off an interesting train of enquiry. Aside from David's
>conformance tests, how many other people have tried to prove parser
>interoperability in development or production situations, and with what
>results?

Yes. We provide a range of tools and documents which behave OK, but if someone
uses a tool we haven't used we don't want to have to tackle fuzzy questions
at an early
stage.

	P.

[Erratum: I meant <!ELEMENT greeting (#PCDATA)>]

>
>Edd
>
>-- 
>Edd Dumbill ----/ voice: +44 702-093-6870 fax: +44 870-164-0230 /----
> | Managing Editor, XML.com                          <http://xml.com>
> | Publishing Editor, XMLhack.com                <http://xmlhack.com>
> 

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From robertl1 at home.com  Mon Jan 17 01:27:58 2000
From: robertl1 at home.com (Robert La Quey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>

At 01:42 PM 1/15/00 -0800, you wrote:
>At 01:58 PM 1/15/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> >As much as I appreciate that the W3C is busy, getting this out a lot
> >earlier would have been useful, to say the least.  A lot of the dates on
> >these are _very_ old.
>
>Mea culpa, more than anyone else.  But it's a symptom of the W3C's 
>#1 problem, lack of resources.  I've been busy helping get XLink done.
>CMSMCQ's been busy helping get schema done.  JeanPa's been busy getting
>MS Office to do something sensible with XML, a little bird tells me.  It
>was tough to lay any of these tasks aside to put in the errata work.

Well, open up the game and you will get a lot more resources.  Not 
money, but the scarce resource, brains and imagination. 

I don't see Linus complaining about a lack of resource for Linux. 

Some people might have to give up some control though. But again I don't see
Linus asking for permission to axe stuff he does not like. 

Forward,


Bob La Quey


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 02:00:37 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <200001170200.VAA26638@hesketh.net>

At 05:18 PM 1/16/00 -0800, Robert La Quey wrote:
>At 01:42 PM 1/15/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:
>>Mea culpa, more than anyone else.  But it's a symptom of the W3C's 
>>#1 problem, lack of resources.  I've been busy helping get XLink done.
>>CMSMCQ's been busy helping get schema done.  JeanPa's been busy getting
>>MS Office to do something sensible with XML, a little bird tells me.  It
>>was tough to lay any of these tasks aside to put in the errata work.
>
>Well, open up the game and you will get a lot more resources.  Not 
>money, but the scarce resource, brains and imagination. 

It takes a big leap of imagination, not to mention willingness to give up
the pretense of control over a standards process.

I don't see the W3C or its corporate members - heck, even many of its
academic members - having that kind of flexibility or interest in moving to
an open process.  An open process would make different kinds of resources
available, but the W3C and the defenders of its process don't seem to value
those resources.

I'd love to see an opening, and I'd be much happier about implementing
projects like XLink, but I've been waiting a while and seen only a few tiny
cracks in the wall.  Looking back, those cracks seem to have been the
results of insiders bringing discussion outside the walls to suit a
particular purpose, not the results of outsiders asking the W3C to open up.

And no, I don't have any interest in participating as an invited expert in
a closed process, so this isn't a plea for that kind of access.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Mon Jan 17 04:46:26 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
References: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com> <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <014701bf60a7$ea9fa840$96acdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

Hi,
i have been teaching an online course for over a year now (see www.hwg.org)
and have encountered a similar problem. It is of course the tools that are
at fault. Most of my students run windows, and I find that by using the
MSXML parser, IBM's parser in C and James Clarkes parser we can parse and/or
validate just about anything.

Of the validating parsers my students prefer the IBM parser, as it gives
readouts for more than one error.

Frank
----- Original Message -----
From: Peter Murray-Rust <peter@ursus.demon.co.uk>
To: 'XML Dev' <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 5:19 PM
Subject: Simple XML conformance


> I have been preparing a set of XML documents and a collection of XML-aware
> tools to introduce newcomers to XML (on our VirtualXML course). I have
> encountered a surprisingly number of cases where an XML tool is unable to
> read an XML document. [There is not meant to be anything tricky here since
> Henry and I are actually trying to demonstrate how to learn XML by doing.
> We are not looking to "torture" the tools - more the reverse.]
>
> As a collection of XML documents I took:
> Jon Bosak's Shakespeare (elements and DTD)
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.xml (elements, attributes and
> DTD (with PEs))
> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-2/ (elements, attributes, entities and
> DTD(with PEs and GEs)) [I point out that this is an excellent document for
> showing a wide range of XML constructs in a meaningful way.]
> (and a number of examples distributed with tools, including my own).
>
> Here are some of the problems ( I will not list the tools explicitly)
> - tool threw a fatal error because <?xml version="1.0"?> was absent
> - tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing
> - REC-xml and DOM specify DTD but spec.dtd is not mounted
> - One content model in spec.dtd appeared to be inconsistent with the
> REC-xml (I may have th wrong spec.dtd but it was downloaded from w3.org)
> - one tool "skipped" general entity references (i.e. did not expand them)
> and threw a content model error
> - one tool regarded undeclared parameter entities in comments (in
> spec.dtd) as errors
> - several tools regard the absence of a DTD as a fatal error (i.e. they
> appear to be validating by default).
>
> As an example, I believe that it is likely that many tools when pointed
at:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-xml-19980210.xml
> will fail.
>
> I expect that by tweaking some of the tools with commandline switches I
> might be able to alter their behaviour, but I am slightly surprised that
> some tools will only read validatable files (e.g. the file
>
> <greeting>Hello World</greeting>
>
> is often not readable (unless "edited" to:
>
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> <!DOCTYPE greeting [
> <!ELEMENT greeting (ANY)>
> ]>
> <greeting>Hello World</greeting>
>
> Is there a definitive resource anywhere which explicitly states what
> behaviour can be expected from various types of parsers? I know it is
> inferable from the spec, but I suspect that not all implementers have
taken
> identical interpretations. I would ideally like to have a matrix of
parsers
> against standard "correct" [not always "valid"] documents and see how many
> conform.
>
> Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
> correct tools and that interoperability is achievable.
>
> TIA
>
> P.
> (http://www.cmlconsulting.com)
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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981-02-3594-1
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 05:59:19 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
References: <3881372E.93E9A62B@xmission.com> <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <3882AFAD.A1642F7F@pacbell.net>

Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> 
> Is there a definitive resource anywhere which explicitly states what
> behaviour can be expected from various types of parsers? I know it is
> inferable from the spec, 

There's a test matrix up at the front of the OASIS/NIST test report
that covers some of this, but most if it must be gotten from the spec.
That test report is big (571K) and an HTML rendition is at

    http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xmltest/xmlconf.htm

If you don't want to load 571K, then just load sections 1 and 2; the
test matrix is in section 2.

(The source is an XML document ... you might find it interesting to
see how many of your parsers handle it correctly!  :-)


Luckly several of your examples don't call for "inference" from the
specification -- when the spec says something is optional, it means
it, so parsers objecting to missing XML declarations or (specifically)
DTDs are clearly in error.  (If there's no DTD, a validating parser
will certainly find an error in a document -- but it's not that the
DTD is missing, it's all the undeclared names in the document!)

That parser that interpreted <!-- %pe-refs-in-comments; --> really
would benefit from reading the recently published errata ... it fixed
some significant omissions from the original XML spec in that area.
Any parser implemented from just the spec would have that problem.
(I got suspicious when my parser couldn't parse the XML spec itself!) 


>	but I suspect that not all implementers have taken
> identical interpretations. I would ideally like to have a matrix of parsers
> against standard "correct" [not always "valid"] documents and see how many
> conform.

Again, look at that test matrix.  The whole OASIS/NIST suite basically
took a thousand or so documents and slotted them into the boxes in that
matrix ... the process of testing is mostly taking a parser and seeing
how it compares with the expected results.

- Dave

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 17 06:06:19 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <3882B06A.BB3@hiwaay.net>

Robert La Quey wrote:
> 
> Well, open up the game and you will get a lot more resources.  Not
> money, but the scarce resource, brains and imagination.
> 
> I don't see Linus complaining about a lack of resource for Linux.
> 
> Some people might have to give up some control though. But again I don't see
> Linus asking for permission to axe stuff he does not like.

Tim can't fix this.  The consortium has to fix it.  Insiders can push 
for it, but that is it.   It will take a political process to change it 
and the signatories need a reason.  Free rational help is one if they 
know they need it and it works for their interests.  So far, they don't 
see a problem.

Don't look to the W3C for open standards.  It makes recommendations; 
writes specs.  These are the products of a consortia.  A consortia 
is a lot like a monopoly.  As the Lily Tomlin joke went, "we're the 
phone company.  We don't have to care."  Well, before cable, that 
was right in this business too.  Things can change.  It takes a 
compelling interest.  Right now, as the money goes, there is no 
interest in changing the W3C processes.  Some group will have to 
get very hungry or ambitious for that to happen.  So far, I don't 
see a candidate.  You will see other powers take more active interest 
in the timeliness and functionality of the consortia products. 
Ensuring an economy gives them a compelling interest.  They  
have their own culture for acquiring product.  Acquisition has rules.

It isn't Linux.  Linux is code, a product too, but the 
differences are: no one owns it, and it's important authority is a 
compiler.

len


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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Mon Jan 17 07:05:48 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article.> 
Message-ID: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>

> With all respect, I think the lack of resources are the fault of the W3C
> membership policies, which seem designed to strongly discourage
individuals > and small organizations and businesses from participating in
the process.
> US$5000 for an Affiliate Membership is beyond the reach of most of us and

But that is small change compared to the amount that W3C member companies
must invest to subsidize the time of working group members, pay for their
travel to meetings, etc. The W3C is what it is -- a consortium of
organizations whose products collectively dominate the Web industry. It
works by laboriously building consensus among competitors.  This is a
significant  weakness, because it slows down the process and leads to less
than elegant results. It is also a great strength, because the results
become "real" standards that tend to get implemented.

> Whether this policy is because the big players want negotiations to go on
> in secret (and secrecy is inherent in the W3C structure so it can't be an
> accident) or because W3C just can't be bothered with the "little people"
> is a matter of speculation.

This subject was thrashed about herelast Fall rather thorougly. The W3C's
secrecy policies are there because it is a treaty organization of
competitors, not a friendly group of collaborators.  Imagine the chaos if
IBM, Oracle, Sun, Microsoft, et al. were allowed to leak each other's
proposals to the press in order to put their own spin on everything to press
a competitive advantage.  Imagine if the technical people working on the
specs had to answer to their PR people every time they posted to a W3C
mailing list! Look at the relatively open US political system, with the
press and pundits and consultants/lobbyists entangled in the whole process,
and nobody willing to take a coherent controversial stand on anything.
That's what a truly open W3C would look like.  It would make the current W3C
look like a thing of beauty by comparison.

This is not to say that there should not be a truly open Web standards
organization.  Such a thing might function well as an association of
individual technical experts (representing themselves rather than speaking
for their employers), e.g. the ad hoc group that produced SAX.  I suspect
that such a process can produce quick and simple standards that put a
minimum amount of order in place where none existed, or to agree on subsets
of existing specs that we can all REALLY support.  But when it comes to the
really nasty questions that are as much political and economic as technical,
such an organization would have no way of getting its result to be adopted.


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Mon Jan 17 08:05:25 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article.> 
In-Reply-To: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000116221015.009733a0@shell16.ba.best.com>

We're all discussing this topic by means of a pervasive medium developed 
using the open RFC consensus process, RFC-822 et al., which has been 
adopted by every e-mail system manufacturer in the world. If they don't 
play by *our* rules, they can't sell their products.

At Monday 1/17/00 02:01 AM -0500, Michael Champion wrote:

<Lots of good points snipped>

>This is not to say that there should not be a truly open Web standards
>organization.  Such a thing might function well as an association of
>individual technical experts (representing themselves rather than speaking
>for their employers), e.g. the ad hoc group that produced SAX.  I suspect
>that such a process can produce quick and simple standards that put a
>minimum amount of order in place where none existed, or to agree on subsets
>of existing specs that we can all REALLY support.  But when it comes to the
>really nasty questions that are as much political and economic as technical,
>such an organization would have no way of getting its result to be adopted.


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Mon Jan 17 08:05:21 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <m3puv1fslt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Lee Anne Phillips's message of "Sun, 16 Jan 2000 12:59:22 -0800">
 <4.2.0.58.20000116121029.00b3b160@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000116221515.00a7db20@shell16.ba.best.com>

I'm well aware that Tim Bray is not the problem and indeed is part of at 
least one possible solution in another area. His words occasioned the 
thought rather than being something I felt I should reply to as in 
disagreeing with his words. Quite the contrary, I agree completely with 
what he said.

They *are* starved for resources, but they're starved because the glacial 
process serves corporate sponsors well at the expense of the community.

I've been on standards bodies in other fields, and the level of actual 
participation was sometimes laughable. Although my company was quite 
willing to send me off to the meetings, at huge expense, once I got home 
the party was over and it was back to work on corporate business. If I 
managed to do a little work on standards body business over my lunch hour, 
that was fine by them but no one really cared as long as we could say that 
we were *involved*.

What you say is true, it's an enormous commitment of time and money when 
viewed from our small company viewpoints, but full membership means your 
company grosses fifty million dollars a year or more. A few hundreds of 
thousands of dollars in overhead is chicken feed to a company of the size 
that most full members are. It's well worth the cost to make sure that your 
viewpoint is taken into account on the topics that matter to you. It's 
probably worth the cost just to have the opportunity to delay developments 
one doesn't like as well.

At Sunday 1/16/00 07:29 PM -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Actually, the W3C XML Activity actively recruits invited experts who
>do not work for member companies, including Tim Bray, the person
>you're replying to, though I agree that's not the same as a real open process.


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 09:36:42 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: W3C policies [was: Re: Microsoft's responce ... ]
References: <4.2.0.58.20000116121029.00b3b160@shell16.ba.best.com> <m3puv1fslt.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3882E2A0.FD6FBC8C@pacbell.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> Lee Anne Phillips <leeanne@leeanne.com> writes:
> 
> > With all respect, I think the lack of resources are the fault of the
> > W3C membership policies, which seem designed to strongly discourage
> > individuals and small organizations and businesses from
> > participating in the process.  US$5000 for an Affiliate Membership
> > is beyond the reach of most of us and of many small businesses since
> > that's in addition to the value of the time spent on the process
> > itself.
> 
> That said, I think the biggest problem for small companies isn't the
> $5K/year membership fee (though that's bad enough) but the
> $50K-$100K++/year of lost work time and travel costs even just to
> allow one competent engineer to participate.

Curious that this discussion got started by an issue of delayed
publication of errata, something that could easily be done part
time by someone that doesn't travel and only has access to email
archives.  (Other instances of this discussion have gotten started
by issues which likewise don't need much in the way of resources.)

The IETF and IEEE provide other examples of organizations which
make it practical to make small, focussed contributions to key
standards ... by individuals and small companies, rather than
only those who want to participate via large fees and travel bills.

So long as W3C defines participation as paying lots of bucks and
traveling a lot, that's what it'll take.  Circularity.  And yes,
small companies and individuals can't afford that.  Maybe that's
not intentional.  But it certainly overstates the value of travel,
and understates both the value of expert assistance, and the value
of getting problems resolved before they're widely distributed.

- Dave

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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Mon Jan 17 12:00:15 2000
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
References: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <20000117070009.F21670@w3.org>

On Sun, Jan 16, 2000 at 05:18:37PM -0800, Robert La Quey wrote:
> At 01:42 PM 1/15/00 -0800, you wrote:
> >At 01:58 PM 1/15/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> > >As much as I appreciate that the W3C is busy, getting this out a lot
> > >earlier would have been useful, to say the least.  A lot of the dates on
> > >these are _very_ old.
> >
> >Mea culpa, more than anyone else.  But it's a symptom of the W3C's 
> >#1 problem, lack of resources.  I've been busy helping get XLink done.
> >CMSMCQ's been busy helping get schema done.  JeanPa's been busy getting
> >MS Office to do something sensible with XML, a little bird tells me.  It
> >was tough to lay any of these tasks aside to put in the errata work.
> 
> Well, open up the game and you will get a lot more resources.  Not 
> money, but the scarce resource, brains and imagination. 
> 
> I don't see Linus complaining about a lack of resource for Linux. 

  Well, that's not completely true, sometimes submissions and upgrades
just don't arrive in time and the whole release/process got slowed down
(example  ISDN, update to exotic filesystem/hardware when internal changes
occurs).

> Some people might have to give up some control though. But again I don't see
> Linus asking for permission to axe stuff he does not like. 

  Yep the linux kernel example shows the double edged  sword point.
Even a completely open process can end-up in a arbitrary decision. 
For examples people have been coding USB support for more than two years
Linus didn't like it, and rewrote a new USB layer from scratch.
I think one of the key points in the W3C process is to avoid arbitrary
design decision, changes to specs are reached by WG consensus, and
then once the spec is finished it has to get approval from the director
and members.
  Arbitrary design decision can lead to a speedy specification, they
also can generate serious problems, we try to avoid that.

Daniel

-- 
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes  | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux XML libxml WWW
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | Gnome rpm2html rpmfind
 http://www.w3.org/People/all#veillard%40w3.org  | RPM badminton Kaffe

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From ray at xmission.com  Mon Jan 17 13:54:12 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <38832329.E411285F@xmission.com>

Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Didier reply:
> Why then also include exceptions? If this where simply a template then why
> having so much detail. So much details that the interface can be compiled
> and mapped to a particular language. This is more than a template. This is a
> fuly fonctional OMG IDL. If the intent was to provide just a template, then
> it is easy to write an abstract interface without having to use OMG IDL no?
> And yes, you are right the OMG spec do not mention anything about in process
> usage. Only inter-operability between object through sockets and IIOP is
> properly defined. Then, why use an interface definition that is not adapted
> to in-process processing? Most of DOM processing will happen in process no?
> Then why use an interface definition with a specification specialized for
> remote invocation?

Most languages include exceptions.  I would not advocate using any language as
a template for others to follow without following the letter of the language as

much as possible.  The only thing not addressed in the CORBA binding was
how to evolve a fragile C++ vtable from one version to the next, where there
is not even binary a standard that relates that vtable to CORBA.  The IIOP
interoperability works fine just as it has been defined if you ignore
performance.

While OMG defines IDL for use in remote processes, IDL doesn't seem to
be biased against definitions for local object systems.  Whether a particular
object system is robust enough to preserve binary compatibility in a
covarying object model is a different question, but each language binding
is free to pursue the most natural course for that language.  For some fragile
bindings, it is probably best to declare incompatibility between levels 1 and
2.  Others may provide a solution that can be binary compatible with both
versions.

> Ray said:
> I am working on my own C++ binding for DOM right now that has none of the
> traditional C++
> fragility problems, again, by introducing a more-robust object model, which
> I call CROS
> (C++ Runtime Object Standard)...
>
> Didier reply:
> OK Ray, in fact, you are proposing a new middleware. Its OK. So now the
> question is: is your spec resolving the problem of intr-address space usage?
> can I develop a component in, let's say, Python and have it used by an other
> one developed in  C++? If yes, you probably defined a binary signature and
> if this is the case, please let us know what is your solution. This may be
> interesting to learn and probably to use if you provide tool to make it a
> reality. Since then, XPCOM is freely available. Or when the WINE project
> will have made some progress, their DCOM implementation may be interesting
> (but actually lack an IDL compiler).

I agree about talent not being related to wallet size.

I dislike the COM approach for fine-grained object models.  Therefore I am
indeed proposing new middleware, but you should give my effort a few months
to release a functional DOM and other examples.  I have spent many years
researching, designing, and prototyping this type of middleware, and the larger

XML-based office suites that it makes possible, built on arbitrary content
models with completely configurable fine-grained independently-supplied
components to match.

But I only decided 12 days ago to start building a suitable object model for
these
purposes so that I could do this work on the side, after, again, spending years

investing in Java, only to be repeatedly disappointed with Sun's unwillingness
to
open up the model so we can solve some fundamental problems there and
leverage other great non-Java work in the process.  Hence:

http://www.xmission.com/~ray/CROS.html

You probably shouldn't be interested in the project at this early stage.
Whether
it will ever reach any degree of acceptance or credibility is far from known.
The
only reason for you to look at it at this point would be to provide feedback,
or tell
me that you think the solution is already available somewhere else.  I am still

mostly modelling designs rather than coding.  The tool will come in a month or
so.

To answer your question, it does solve the problem of binary compatibility when

reusing or inheriting code between separately-compiled shared libraries which
may
have quite different versions of an interface.  I think it will compliment a
CORBA
ORB for inprocess access quite nicely in this respect.

It is based upon a core dispatch lookup, which populates dispatch tables.  The
dispatch table is never stored in the object, but rather as a second field in
the
object reference, with efficient techniques for caching dispatch tables so they

only need to be built once for a particular shared library and so that most
operations that are simple with minimal fixed overhead in C++ remain simple
with minimal fixed overhead.  Dynamic generic classes are easily obtained.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From flood at spark.net.gr  Mon Jan 17 14:02:44 2000
From: flood at spark.net.gr (flood)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: xml and asp HELP!
Message-ID: <005901bf60f3$40e2fb80$4d6342c3@eymenidhs>

Hi,

When I try using the SQL "Like" function through an ASP-driven
query it doesn't return any records. However, if I run exactly
the same query in MS Access directly it works just fine and
returns rows.

I know the ODBC is set up correctly. 
Is anyone aware of issues that would cause this, and more
importantly how I can get around this?

I'm using IIS 4,0 as a middle-tier Web server, a system DSN, and an
MS Access database. The fields I'm trying to run Like on are
text and memo format.

Thanks
Kostas


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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 14:44:05 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000116121029.00b3b160@shell16.ba.best.com>
References: <3.0.32.20000115134052.014b6ca0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117094128.04c31760@216.65.70.29>

At 12:59 PM 1/16/00 -0800, Lee Anne Phillips wrote:
>With all respect, I think the lack of resources are the fault of the W3C 
>membership policies, which seem designed to strongly discourage individuals 
>and small organizations and businesses from participating in the process. 
>US$5000 for an Affiliate Membership is beyond the reach of most of us and 
>of many small businesses since that's in addition to the value of the time 
>spent on the process itself.
>
>Whether this policy is because the big players want negotiations to go on 
>in secret (and secrecy is inherent in the W3C structure so it can't be an 
>accident) or because W3C just can't be bothered with the "little people" is 
>a matter of speculation.

Let's try and drop any "W3C as a grand conspiracy" visions quickly....

Quite frankly, the "little people" argument just doesn't hold water (have
you looked at the membership list lately? Lots of "little people"). 

The HTML Writers Guild paid our $5000 dues when our annual budget was only
in the mid 5 figures, so I have very little sympathy for arguments of "too
expensive". It's a choice. If you want to be a part of the process and make
a difference, you make the choice to do so. If you're not willing, then you
have little room to complain. As always, individuals can be a part of the
process as invited experts..

And the "resources" Tim was (most likely)  referring to are W3C paid
resources -- staff members, engineers, etc.  Those aren't free. They could
raise dues for the vast majority of memberships (the affiliates), but then
we'd just hear more exclusionary ranting, so....

Ann

---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 14:42:59 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:15 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <20000117070009.F21670@w3.org>
References: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
 <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com>
Message-ID: <200001171442.JAA21877@hesketh.net>

At 07:00 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Daniel Veillard wrote:
>I think one of the key points in the W3C process is to avoid arbitrary
>design decision, changes to specs are reached by WG consensus, and
>then once the spec is finished it has to get approval from the director
>and members.
>  Arbitrary design decision can lead to a speedy specification, they
>also can generate serious problems, we try to avoid that.

Arbitrary design decisions within the W3C seem to be the cause of unending
discussions on XML-dev, if _any_ of the stories I've heard at conferences
are true.

(I don't think the W3C process was set up arbitrarily, though it too
appears to be the cause of unending discussions.)

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From ray at xmission.com  Mon Jan 17 14:56:30 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEKPELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <388331C4.CCCCC5C@xmission.com>

Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>
> Ray said:
> What do you feel is needed beyond the current W3C DOM standard methods for
> querying the
> levels and modules of support in a DOM implementation?
>
> Didier reply:
> Simple. An interface (even defined in OMG IDL) that allows clients to query
> the provider DOM level support.

So, to restate the question, what is the problem with the "hasFeature" call of
DOM?

> Didier reply:
> It seems that you missed something Ray. I'll be more explicit and just do
> this simple experiment Ray.

[...]

I don't see what I missed.  C++ is not set up to extend objects in a
binary-compatible
fashion.  Bindings which have a problem with that already have established
techniques for
dealing with this problem, which exactly the natural solution I expect them to
pursue.

> ---> Here is what I mean with the notion of contract.

Yes.  You constructed a fragile contract based upon fragile structures in C++.
Do you
wish to usurp the notion of contract and not allow languages and even models on
top of
C++ with more-dynamic binding capabilities to apply a more-useful notion of
contract that provides covariance within the DOM hierarchy and allows members
to be
added as long as everything the original contract expected is still there?

The correct answer in COM is to add an extension interface that can be
queried.  It is not
rocket science to apply the IDL to individual situations and adapt to the
model.  That is,
I believe, what COM DOM suppliers will do.  W3C has never committed to publish
the
standard COM binding.  That is up to whatever standards body is responsible for

specification and interoperability of COM.  Are you proposing adding extra
objects
that must be ineficiently and unreliably queried at every point to every other
binding
including Javascript, just so we can all suffer together?  When Javascript
exposes a
COM object I believe it will even reunify the COM splinters into a unified
object to
make things simple again for the user, demonstrating that the fragmented
interface is
not the only desirable one.

> Conclusion:
> a) defining the interfaces with at least an IDL and set of specification
> that defined a particular binary signature so that components can _really_
> talk together within the same address space. I do not say here that the
> interfaces should not be defined with the OMG IDL. Someone may have the need
> to ask for a DOM service at the other end of the globe :-)). Or to compile
> and convert the document in a DOM in an address space and use it in an
> other.

I think that this was way beyond the scope of the project.  There IS no winning

binary standard for C++.  DOM is one of many projects suffering under the lack
of such.  To enshrine any particular C++ binary model there as the only one
appropriate to use seems intolerant and unrealistic at best.  The body decided
to supply a CORBA template and concrete Java bindings.

The standards bodies responsible for additional object models such as COM, or
other languages with built-in object models in are responsible for creating
a standard binding of DOM at this point.

> b) Defining at least one interface that allows the client to probe the DOM
> provider. This interface is a fixed contract and do not change. This way,
> the client can query the DOM version throught a permanent interface that do
> not vary in time. Then, the client can, from the information received with
> that interface use the provider or not. Practically speaking, the client may
> understand only DOM 1, the provider may only support DOM 2, then the client
> cannot inter-operate with the provider. case 2: the client only understand
> DOM1, the provider supports both set of interfaces, the user may obtain the
> right interface set from the provider. Even if each interface do not have a
> query interface mechanism, the provider may provide the right set of
> interfaces.

This has been available since DOM level 1, I believe exactly as you propose.
I repeat the question:  what is wrong with it as it exists today.

> Note about the query interface on each node:
> you know that the DOM is, in some ways, an implementation of the composite
> pattern (gamma & al. 1995). Let's say that you have a root interface used to
> query the DOM version and obtain the root node. if the elements of the DOM
> where designed to support a query interface mechanism, then the root
> interface may, in this case, return a node interface. Now let's say that the
> DOM is an ever evolving entity and that in year 2020 the root node is not
> anymore the "document" node. Then, in this case, if the returned node is
> simply a "node" and that a query interface mechanism is provided, then I can
> query the "node" for the kind of interface desired, in 2020 that may
> probably by a "library" interface :-) Actually, within the current interface
> definitions I can't. I have to request for a "document" node, if this
> evolves into a library object, then its over, the contract is not respected
> any more. The best solution is to provide to the client a "node" object and
> then from this object obtain either a "document" or a "library" interface.
> This time the contract works. But, let's be indulgent and say that if at
> least a non changing interface is provided then a query interface on each
> interface is not necessary, the client will know that DOM level-124 (in year
> 2020) starts with a "library" interface not a "document" interface. So, in
> that case, the non-changing interface should return a typeless
> interface...hummmm, is that against the OMG interface principles. There we
> go, maybe here, a potential Y3K bug in view :-)))

Carefully adding methods to an object interface does not break backwards
compatibility at the abstract level.  A particular object model may require
specific measures such as extension interfaces to add methods to get around
limitations in the implementation or to comply with notions of the
implementation.

In cases where multiple node types are allowed, the current DOM specification
already returns node types which are checked for type.

Even if there were a generic capability to query for unknown interface types
(which is very much like a Smalltalk model where you have apparently no
idea what object type you are dealing with) it doesn't keep any better
compatibility with the level 2 DOM user who expected to deal with a
Document node, but was not prepared to deal with a Library node.
You are now arguing for fewer contracts in presumably all cases.
I'd rather add a different method to get a fundamentally-different
object type.

You will also note that in cases of clearly-distinct sets of functionality,
DOM level 2 already separates these into different interfaces, which are
obtained in object-model-specific ways such as QueryInterface or Java
casting.


> We can also say that the interfaces are simply templates, that the IDL was
> used only to please the OMG consortium and that in fact, the IDL is a fad
> not to be used in real life. OK, if the recommendation say that I should not
> take the IDL for an implementation but only as an inspiration, this is at
> least clear that I should not use the IDL for a DOM implementation. Also, if
> implicitely it is said that I can do whatever I want with the interfaces,
> add or suppress members, then why do we have recommendations then?

What wording do you propose.  How about including in the introduction:

"Note: OMG IDL is used only as a language-independent and implementation-
neutral way to specify interfaces. Various other IDLs could have been used. In
general, IDLs are designed for specific computing environments. The Document
Object Model can be implemented in any computing environment, and does not
require the object binding runtimes generally associated with such IDLs. "

It is already there.

> I hope that now you see the incongruity of the situation.

I see lots of landmines that have been in OOP in C++ for quite some time.  I
have tried to solve them for years unsuccessfully.

> Anyway, my proposal is not to judge the DOM WG which had to deal with enough
> political pressure from its members. But to help us create truly
> inter-operable components by providing enough information to implementers so
> that at least, they know what the contract is and how to fulfill it. And
> most of all, to provide to users components that are inter-operable, at
> least, within the same middleware convention. This is not even the case
> today with the actual DOM recommendations.

If you have suggestions on how to do that better, please suggest away.

Best regards,

Ray Whitmer



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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 15:12:47 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000116221015.009733a0@shell16.ba.best.com>
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>

At 10:36 PM 1/16/00 -0800, Lee Anne Phillips pointed out:
>At Monday 1/17/00 02:01 AM -0500, Michael Champion wrote:
>>This is not to say that there should not be a truly open Web standards
>>organization.  Such a thing might function well as an association of
>>individual technical experts (representing themselves rather than speaking
>>for their employers), e.g. the ad hoc group that produced SAX.  I suspect
>>that such a process can produce quick and simple standards that put a
>>minimum amount of order in place where none existed, or to agree on subsets
>>of existing specs that we can all REALLY support.  But when it comes to the
>>really nasty questions that are as much political and economic as technical,
>>such an organization would have no way of getting its result to be adopted.

Given that the W3C's 'real' authority seems to be moral - Tim Berners-Lee's
historic moment creating HTML and HTTP gives him enough authority to lead a
consortium of feuding vendors, and that the W3C does virtually nothing to
enforce standards conformance on vendors, I think this last sentence can be
safely ignored.

The main difficulty with any non-vendor organization purporting to set
standards of any kind is getting them adopted.  In the IETF model, this is
pretty much accepted as a problem for individual standards to deal with -
running code is an important part of the process, as is the need for two
different interoperable implementations.

Some amount of wasted work is unavoidable - see, for instance, the very few
implementations of SMIL 1.0 (vendor resistance, apparently), the halting of
http-ng, and a few thousand other pieces of roadkill along the side of the
Internet.

Is there any chance of forming the ad hoc group that Michael describes
above, using as open a model as possible?  The IETF and the W3C appear to
have moved beyond their cease-fire to a peace treaty, so I don't think the
IETF is an option for such work.  Similarly, it's not clear that OASIS
(which charges fees, but at least the level is much lower) would be
interested in work that might well compete with W3C initiatives.

The kinds of projects suggested above - subsetting and filling holes in
existing specs - seem like a good place to get started, and see what
happens from there.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
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From ray at xmission.com  Mon Jan 17 15:56:45 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com> <38822705.5848@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <38833FE0.E9129805@xmission.com>

Len Bullard wrote:

> Didier PH Martin wrote:
> >
>
> > a) we define all interfaces as contracts something that is stable throughout
> > the time. A contract that can be fulfilled even if the components evolve. A
> > contract that can be fulfilled in spite of the component evolution. If we
> > change the contract we simply create a new one. If we change the interface,
> > we simply create a new one.
>
> A contract is good for the duration specified.  In this case, the
> lifecycle
> intervals of redefinition;  see ISO revision cycles.  It is incumbent on
> the signatories to define what is negotiable at each interval.  The
> important
> issue is to establish a parent ROA to which all other namespace owners
> are
> signatories, therefore establishing a semantic heritage which is used to
> arbitrate disputes.

In the case of DOM, the contract is the specification, which goes far beyond
what any IDL is able to specify, although any specification may have holes in
it which need to be patched.  DOM uses IDL to help specify a how a particular
level of behavior works.  DOM generally permits specific language bindings
to do the right thing -- whatever is best -- to adapt to the requirements and
expectations of users of the platform including version compatibility.

> > b) to do so, we have a mechanism to query the interface and get the right
> > one.
> >
> > What? they say that your object broker should deal with that? Then how the
> > object broker can differentiate between two interfaces having the same name
> > but not the same specification? This is not mentionned in the OMG specs, so,
> > how can we expect that they would do it in a standard way?
>
> That is the issue.  You do not have a parent ROA.  Therefore, you have a
> contract which is interpretable in real time and no means to arbitrate.

The DOM specification tells how users of the specification can detect the
level of compliance and compatibility from the runtime system.  No small
set of models would suffice if more were to be dictated by the specification,
and would occupy no small part of the DOM WG's time to solve something
which seems more properly solvable by those concerned with a specific platform.

> > What? they say, just recompile the code. but what do we do if we do not have
> > the source code?
>
> You did not understand and/or specify your process and its
> requirements.
> Oops.

The DOM WG did not say that.  If you started with a model you cannot extend,
such as raw C++, live with it or solve it.  Different models have different
requirements and different solutions to the various problems.

> > What? they say, you're not suppose to have backward compatibility,
> > manufacturers should make some money and therefore you have to buy again all
> > the components each time a new recommendation is out. So, fine, please,
> > include this as a note to the recommendations please :-)
>
> If they say that and it is conflict with the parent ROA, then they
> are in violation of the contract.  That makes them litigable by whatever
> means is necessary.  What constitutes restitution?

Whoever said that did a poor job of choosing their object model in the first
place.

> > The believer point of view:
> > OK, the humans are born with good intentions, only the society corrupts them
> > (who said that? Jean Jacques Rousseau?).
>
> Corruption is not an issue because you will have to establish mutually
> assured interests.   What you may have is an issue of competence.
>
> > Yes indeed this is a weakness of the OMG
> > model.

Read even just the complete introduction to "What is the DOM".  It is
good reading WRT what is expected of the IDL interfaces in the DOM
spec.  While it doesn't rule out CORBA usage, it makes it obvious (to
me anyway) that using it blindly with CORBA goes outside the intent
of the specification in this case, not to mention the further-unspecified
usage of IDL for inprocess connection of separately-compiled C++
vtables, which not even CORBA standardizes.

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 16:03:31 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:13:02 -0500"
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP> <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3hfgcvg7i.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> Is there any chance of forming the ad hoc group that Michael describes
> above, using as open a model as possible?  The IETF and the W3C appear to
> have moved beyond their cease-fire to a peace treaty, so I don't think the
> IETF is an option for such work.  Similarly, it's not clear that OASIS
> (which charges fees, but at least the level is much lower) would be
> interested in work that might well compete with W3C initiatives.

It might be a lot more useful to start by getting an informal group of
2-4 vendors or developers together, publishing a simple, open spec,
and providing interoperable software that implements it.  If the world
needs it, it will jump at it, and then you can hand over the spec to a
standards body for formalization; otherwise, the world will simply
yawn.

Note how much of what we use was developed or is being developed this
way (a small group of developers or vendors, a public spec, and
running software first; formal standardization afterwards, if demand
warrants): consider HTML, ECMAScript, Java and its dependent specs (I
hope, if we can even pry Sun's fingers loose), SAX, OpenGL, and so on.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 16:11:51 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000117094128.04c31760@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEMEELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ann,

Ann said:
The HTML Writers Guild paid our $5000 dues when our annual budget was only
in the mid 5 figures, so I have very little sympathy for arguments of "too
expensive". It's a choice. If you want to be a part of the process and make
a difference, you make the choice to do so. If you're not willing, then you
have little room to complain. As always, individuals can be a part of the
process as invited experts..

And the "resources" Tim was (most likely)  referring to are W3C paid
resources -- staff members, engineers, etc.  Those aren't free. They could
raise dues for the vast majority of memberships (the affiliates), but then
we'd just hear more exclusionary ranting, so....

Didier reply:
By the way Ann, how many member do W3 actually has? more than 1000, 2000,
3000?
Let's say that it has 1000 members, so, 1000 X 5000$ = 5 000 000$.
Now how many people are on the permanent staff now? 100? 200?

How much money W3C put on PR?

I know, except for the number of members I'll never get these numbers, but
is w3c really lacking resources? like a guy said couple century ago in
Denmark (yes in fantasy land) To have or not to have, that is the question.
Ok I changed it a bit :-)) I should have said has it, has it not, that is
the question ( that is if hamlet was living in modern capitalist times :-))

Sorry, its Monday morning and generally I am not too serious on Monday
morning :-))

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 16:36:57 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <m3hfgcvg7i.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:13:02 -0500">
 <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
 <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001171636.LAA28287@hesketh.net>

At 11:02 AM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>It might be a lot more useful to start by getting an informal group of
>2-4 vendors or developers together, publishing a simple, open spec,
>and providing interoperable software that implements it.  If the world
>needs it, it will jump at it, and then you can hand over the spec to a
>standards body for formalization; otherwise, the world will simply
>yawn.

This is a good, practical idea, but I'm not sure it'll spawn new and
continuous activity.  SAX is the classic example of a continuing project,
blessed both with genuine community interest and a maintainer who takes it
seriously.  

I'd like to think that XML-dev is enough of an organization to extend this
model to other fields, like defining best practices for namespaces
interoperability, but I'm not sure a mailing list alone is enough, even one
with as many resources as XML-dev.  I'm encouraged by sites like
SourceForge, but so far that seems much more oriented to software rather
than spec development.

>Note how much of what we use was developed or is being developed this
>way (a small group of developers or vendors, a public spec, and
>running software first; formal standardization afterwards, if demand
>warrants): consider HTML, ECMAScript, Java and its dependent specs (I
>hope, if we can even pry Sun's fingers loose), SAX, OpenGL, and so on.

If the W3C were willing to take the approach of adjudicating among
standards developed by smaller groups, rather than building things in-house
behind closed doors, I think this model would work very well for the Web.
As it is, we've got a closed standardization process that rarely focuses on
'running software first'. Anyone got a good CSS2 implementation?  XSL-FOs?
(At least Amaya provides some real support for XHTML.)

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 16:42:49 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
In-Reply-To: <388331C4.CCCCC5C@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMFELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ray,

Ray said:
So, to restate the question, what is the problem with the "hasFeature" call
of
DOM?

Didier reply:
I already explained all this in a previous post on XML-dev. to restate it
briefly:

a) case one: we banish everything that is not Java, JavaScript or created
with a CORBA IDL because everything else is not defined in the DOM
recommendation. This is not very practical since there is alternative
middleware or other languages than the one listed.

b) we consider the DOM recommendation as a template. The data types may vary
(the DOMString is only an example, string may be different in different
languages) but, we use the DOM as a template. As long as the function names
are respected and that we can package these functions is something that
resemble an interface (i.e. an object, etc...) it is OK.

So, let's now say that it is (B). It will be an interpretation since it is
not explicitly said anywhere. Contrary to that, everywhere in the
recommendation is displayed CORBA interfaces so, this may lead to think that
this is the official religion and other stuff is heresy. Anyway, let's play
the supreme court judges and say that our jurisprudence is that the DOM
recommendation are simply templates are that the CORBA interfaces are simply
guidelines.

If that is the case, if we want something quite general, and because the
interfaces definitions change from recommendation to recommendation and
therefore any contract between clients and providers is changing. Then, the
proposal is made that, a new interface (i.e. a template,  not a C++ template
:-)) is added to the DOM recommendation. At least, the DOM component
providers on certain early binding environments like for instance XPCOM or
DCOM or whatever can implement this interface to announce the support level.
This way, no more crashes. Off course, certain late binding environment may
not have this problem, in that case this interface may be superfluous.
However, if we agree on a certain non changing interface to announce the DOM
component capabilities, this may be useful on certain platform.

Let's make a concrete proposal (again the interface here is based on the (b)
interpretation and could be taken as a template)

interface DOMComponent
{
	boolean HasFeatures(....); // we have here the same parameters as in the
DOM specifications
	object QueryDOM(DOMString); // could be actually "DOM1" or "DOM2" returns
an object (i.e. could be actually a "document" interface and in year 2020 a
"library" interface. so we say here an untyped object. Each platform may
adapt this to its world.
}

Thus, a client first ask for this interface to query for the capabilities,
then obtain with the QueryDOMInterface the first node. The algorithm is:
a) Obtain the DOMComponent interface (in XPCOM or DCOM get it from the class
factory)
b) Get the DOM component capabilities with the HasFeatures member
c) if the required feature is present, then use the QueryDOM. We could have
said here queryDOM interface or QueryDOMObject. But in some environment it
may be an object for other an interface, so let's make it more neutral with
QueryDOM. This latter member returns an object (i.e. an interface).

As long as this interface do not change in time, we are OK, an XPCOM or DCOM
DOM client using early binding won't experiment a crash. This could also be
said of an OSF RPC but, there not a lot of these in the field ( :-))

Thus, a WINE implementation of a DOM component may provide this interface
and prevent client crashes, idem for an XPCOM client. As long as this
interface do not change.

But, instead of adding this interface we have always the alternative to say
that XPCOM and DCOM is heresy and that everybody that is using that should
be burned in hell. If that is the case, please, give me at least some time
to email my fellow colleagues at Mozilla.org to ask for a refugee status
:-)))

PS: I have read your page on CROS and look forward reading more an hopefully
experimenting with it in the future.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
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From rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan 17 16:55:31 2000
From: rja at arpsolutions.demon.co.uk (Richard Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: A Nice Chapter on SAX
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <004401bf610b$37c1de50$b6010180@p197>

Hi,

Wrox Press have published a chapter from their new book Professional XML,
the follow up to the previous title XML Applications.  A few people on these
lists contributed to the book, and I guess quite a few people might find the
free chapter and/or book very useful, hence the post.

The URL is here:

http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/books/3110/contents.htm

The book isn't published yet, but should be available in the next few weeks.

Enjoy,

Rich




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From sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk  Mon Jan 17 16:52:46 2000
From: sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <200001171636.LAA28287@hesketh.net>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 10:13:02 -0500">
	<000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
	<200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>
	<200001171636.LAA28287@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <14467.18626.562852.684242@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>

Simon St.Laurent writes:
 > As it is, we've got a closed standardization process that rarely focuses on
 > 'running software first'.

to be fair, some of them are pretty open. I don't think you could
claim that XSLT falls into the category of closed and unimplemented

> Anyone got a good CSS2 implementation?  

maybe its because no-one wants CSS, they they don't take its
implementation seriously?

 > XSL-FOs?
foul! FO  spec is unfinished.

 > (At least Amaya provides some real support for XHTML.)

you cannot seriously suggest that Amaya is useful for anything other
than the odd demonstration...

sebastian


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From rbryan at CapAccess.org  Mon Jan 17 16:58:55 2000
From: rbryan at CapAccess.org (Randy Bryan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: xml-dev Digest V1 #365
In-Reply-To: <E129zad-0002k6-00@tomatin.cc.ic.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91-FP.720117120143.27396B-100000@cap1.capaccess.org>

unsubscribe


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 17 17:23:08 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP> <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <38834F12.1600@hiwaay.net>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> 
> Given that the W3C's 'real' authority seems to be moral - Tim Berners-Lee's
> historic moment creating HTML and HTTP gives him enough authority to lead a
> consortium of feuding vendors, 

No.  They members join the consortium and sign the papers giving him 
or the position of Director that authority.  

> and that the W3C does virtually nothing to
> enforce standards conformance on vendors, I think this last sentence can be
> safely ignored.

There is no possibility of enforcement except conformance testing.  NIST
has 
worked on this issue exhaustively.

> The main difficulty with any non-vendor organization purporting to set
> standards of any kind is getting them adopted.  In the IETF model, this is
> pretty much accepted as a problem for individual standards to deal with -
> running code is an important part of the process, as is the need for two
> different interoperable implementations.

Right.  That is the key:  willingness to sign the papers of membership
for the 
W3C, but moreover, resources to implement recommendations.

> Some amount of wasted work is unavoidable - see, for instance, the very few
> implementations of SMIL 1.0 (vendor resistance, apparently), the halting of
> http-ng, and a few thousand other pieces of roadkill along the side of the
> Internet.

I note that SMIL is in one form in RealMedia.  So is XML.  RealMedia is
the 
combination of propritary and open standards that produces an extremely
effective 
and pervasive application.  The importance of the RealMedia player which 
operates outside the HTML-centric web browser shows both the potential
for 
different application development strategies and a business model that
works 
without being under the domination of any member of the consortium.  RM 
is as brilliant a strategy as I have seen.  
 
> Is there any chance of forming the ad hoc group that Michael describes
> above, using as open a model as possible?  The IETF and the W3C appear to
> have moved beyond their cease-fire to a peace treaty, so I don't think the
> IETF is an option for such work.  Similarly, it's not clear that OASIS
> (which charges fees, but at least the level is much lower) would be
> interested in work that might well compete with W3C initiatives.

Stop.  Quit trying to outspec the specHeads.   It is a waste of effort.  
Create companies and compete with products.  A good tactician uses the 
strength of the competitor by "embrace and extension".  We can hate 
MS tactics, but they beat everyone and the only way they have been 
curtailed is by the force of a government.   Call it what you will, 
running code that does something demonstrably useful for the community 
of web users who really don't give a damm about the specs is a winning 
strategy.  If you look at the email, you are being 
told to your face to join up, pay your dues, or quit whining. 

It's a clue.  This is the tone of those whom so many of you seem 
so desperate to help.  Face it, Simon, you got a lot further just 
taking a group and creating a schema design.  Then you decided to 
go along with the W3C in a spirit of cooperation.  Now we have a 
baroque overbuilt draft for a schema that even XHTMLers have 
yet to include in a design.  

> The kinds of projects suggested above - subsetting and filling holes in
> existing specs - seem like a good place to get started, and see what
> happens from there.

Why not fill those holes with running code built over proprietary and 
practical solutions which can be patented and by which your companies 
can profit?  This is working remarkably well for MPEG. 

The future is outside the web browser.

len


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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 17:27:52 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000117114641.04c5d390@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMIELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ann,

So , what is more preferable from a business point of view then:

380 X 5000 = 1 900 000$

or 6000 X 320 = 1 920 000$

Or what can be said to be more representative of an industry? 380 or 6000?

OK, It is Monday morning and I am definitively not serious. Or am I?

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com

original message from Ann Navaro:

At 10:15 PM 1/16/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:

>By the way Ann, how many member do W3 actually has? more than 1000, 2000,
>3000?
>Let's say that it has 1000 members, so, 1000 X 5000$ = 5 000 000$.
>Now how many people are on the permanent staff now? 100? 200?

You're way over allocating. W3C has roughly 380 members (some full, most
affiliate).
Staff is considerably lower than that (people pages aren't secret, you can
see those).
W3C budget goes, of course, to more than just salary, though that's a very
big
part of any expenditure.

(and no, these folks aren't getting rich off member dues, they're paid at
academic levels through the host institutions.  Read  'underpaid for their
talents' ).

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education
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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 17 17:32:55 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: The DOM and the victim, the iconoclast and the believer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEKGELAA.martind@netfolder.com> <38822705.5848@hiwaay.net> <38833FE0.E9129805@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <38835152.16EC@hiwaay.net>

Ray Whitmer wrote:
> 
> In the case of DOM, the contract is the specification, which goes far beyond
> what any IDL is able to specify, although any specification may have holes in
> it which need to be patched.  DOM uses IDL to help specify a how a particular
> level of behavior works.  DOM generally permits specific language bindings
> to do the right thing -- whatever is best -- to adapt to the requirements and
> expectations of users of the platform including version compatibility.

It is part of the contract.  If it is a viable contract, is specifies
its duration, 
its remedies, its means of conformance and validation, etc.

> The DOM specification tells how users of the specification can detect the
> level of compliance and compatibility from the runtime system.  

That is still part of the specification.  A contract has a duration and 
remedies.

> No small
> set of models would suffice if more were to be dictated by the specification,
> and would occupy no small part of the DOM WG's time to solve something
> which seems more properly solvable by those concerned with a specific platform.

Then platform specific issues are not part of the contract.

> Whoever said that did a poor job of choosing their object model in the first
> place.

Competence is an issue in solving the issues of contract conformance.

> Read even just the complete introduction to "What is the DOM".  It is
> good reading WRT what is expected of the IDL interfaces in the DOM
> spec.  While it doesn't rule out CORBA usage, it makes it obvious (to
> me anyway) that using it blindly with CORBA goes outside the intent
> of the specification in this case, not to mention the further-unspecified
> usage of IDL for inprocess connection of separately-compiled C++
> vtables, which not even CORBA standardizes.

Then you have the "reasonable implementor" argument and you are down 
to splitting hairs about the normative portions of the specification.

Sounds like this is not an issue of the contract but of the
interpretation 
and potentially, some hot books on How To.

len


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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 17:34:00 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMIELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <4.1.20000117114641.04c5d390@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>

At 11:31 PM 1/16/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Hi Ann,
>
>So , what is more preferable from a business point of view then:
>
>380 X 5000 = 1 900 000$
>
>or 6000 X 320 = 1 920 000$


What are you trying to get at? That 6000 members is somehow preferable to 380? 
There's certainly no cap on W3C membership, they're actively recruiting. 

But if you think that with 6000 member organizations at a lower membership
fee that you'll somehow get better results (with the same budget for
staffing and management), I think you'd be disappointed. 

Again, I've managed our membership to the W3C starting on the most
shoe-string of budgets, so "it's too expensive" really rings hollow here.
You either commit to it, or you don't. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Mon Jan 17 17:36:46 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article.> 
References: <4.2.0.58.20000116221015.009733a0@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <01f501bf6110$be0fa2d0$a1d88dce@WORKGROUP>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Anne Phillips" <leeanne@leeanne.com>
To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:36 AM
Subject: Re: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article.>


> We're all discussing this topic by means of a pervasive medium developed
> using the open RFC consensus process, RFC-822 et al., which has been
> adopted by every e-mail system manufacturer in the world. If they don't
> play by *our* rules, they can't sell their products.

That's an awfully good point, and in view of several responses I think I
overstated my last sentence about the W3C process being slow but more sure
to get widely implemented standards out.  BUT I'll stick to my main point:
truly open standards processes are better at filling voids than at
reconciling differences.  SAX 1.0 came about quickly and openly because it
simply addressed an un-met need.  DOM 1.0 came about slowly and painfully
because it had a goal of reconciling the differences in the Netscape -
Microsoft flavors of dynamic HTML *and* being XML-friendly in the process.
No amount of additional *outside* resources could have sped that process up
very much.

Would RFC 822 have had the effect it has if it had come along *after*
various big players had developed competing schemes for free exchange of
mail over IP?

Or, to be more relevant, could some openly-arrived at standard for XML
schemas have a chance of defining the rules that everyone must follow, in
light of all the conflicting proposals already out there?  I wish ... bu5t
I'd guess that we're gonna be stuck with whatever the W3C comes up with here
simply because their process is geared toward producing the greatest good
for the most vendors.


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 17:37:19 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38834F12.1600@hiwaay.net>
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
 <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001171736.MAA31934@hesketh.net>

At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>Call it what you will, 
>running code that does something demonstrably useful for the community 
>of web users who really don't give a damm about the specs is a winning 
>strategy.  If you look at the email, you are being 
>told to your face to join up, pay your dues, or quit whining. 

I'm actually not concerned with those inside the W3C at this point - I
don't expect them to change their process based on a series of lectures
from non-members on a mailing list.  I'm not whining about the dues, which
I don't ever plan to pay anyway.  There are a lot of things they could do
that would strengthen their position against such complaints, but there
isn't much sign of such things happening.

I'm telling the rest of the world that the W3C (and vendor consortia in
general) is not the only to go about things, and that perhaps it's time,
well past time, to explore alternatives.

>It's a clue.  This is the tone of those whom so many of you seem 
>so desperate to help.  Face it, Simon, you got a lot further just 
>taking a group and creating a schema design.  Then you decided to 
>go along with the W3C in a spirit of cooperation.  Now we have a 
>baroque overbuilt draft for a schema that even XHTMLers have 
>yet to include in a design.  

The most important lesson I took from XSchema/DDML is that running code
rules.  While we had great community participation, we never got real code
on the ground. The spirit of cooperation, in the absence of real code, was
effectively the end of the project.

>Why not fill those holes with running code built over proprietary and 
>practical solutions which can be patented and by which your companies 
>can profit?

Because I have no interest whatsoever in proprietary solutions.

Sorry!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 17 17:37:40 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000117093630.014ce850@pop.intergate.ca>

At 09:45 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Ann Navarro wrote:
>And the "resources" Tim was (most likely)  referring to are W3C paid
>resources -- staff members, engineers, etc.  Those aren't free. They could
>raise dues for the vast majority of memberships (the affiliates), but then
>we'd just hear more exclusionary ranting, so....

Not only - I'm talking about reps from paying members; it's well-known
that even if someone is doing a titanic amount of work editing a spec,
when they have an in-house product-release crunch, well, they're just not
going to be doing any editing for a while.  That is unless they're a 
"standards drone" a well-known species of engineer who isn't trusted
to do any real work but is dispatched to standards committees, found
in some but not all large technology vendors.

I'm not convinced that opening up the W3C process would really make that
much difference in terms of having serious quantities of work cycles
available from qualified, level-headed people.  

But on the other hand openness is a virtue in and of itself, much like
honesty and charity, and I don't think you really ought to have to give
reasons why processes that affect the public interest should be 
open.  They just should.

In fact, the shoe should be on the other foot; if you want to run some
process behind closed doors, you need to have some good, persuasive arguments
as to why this is a good thing.

So, let me offer one such argument, but one that applies to a very limited
application domain.  WHEN you have a consensus-building process that
involves competitors that are energetically trying to wipe each other off
the map, AND one of the weapons in this struggle-to-the-death is dueling 
press releases, AND you've got a trade press that just loves to run stories
of the form "company XYZ {winning|losing} battle over FooML" AND you're 
trying to build consensus around some technology that is expected to have 
real commercial import:

THEN, the effect of having a non-public working group mailing list is
[1] more of the discussion takes place on the list, and less in 
    private back channels
[2] fewer possible emerging consenses [pl of consensus?] are crapped on
    from a great height by some combination of management and marketing

SO, is this effect worth the cost of not being open?

Sometimes.  It depends.  Maybe.   -Tim

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 17 17:46:54 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>The future is outside the web browser.

Nope.  The only category of application that has any hope of existence
outside of a browser are authoring apps, whether for docs or graphics.
99% of all real-world business apps amount to database retrieval and
update.  Why would you ever run one of those through anything but a 
browser?  -Tim

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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 17:47:34 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEMEELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <4.1.20000117094128.04c31760@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117114641.04c5d390@216.65.70.29>

At 10:15 PM 1/16/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:

>By the way Ann, how many member do W3 actually has? more than 1000, 2000,
>3000?
>Let's say that it has 1000 members, so, 1000 X 5000$ = 5 000 000$.
>Now how many people are on the permanent staff now? 100? 200?

You're way over allocating. W3C has roughly 380 members (some full, most
affiliate). 
Staff is considerably lower than that (people pages aren't secret, you can
see those). 
W3C budget goes, of course, to more than just salary, though that's a very big
part of any expenditure. 

(and no, these folks aren't getting rich off member dues, they're paid at
academic levels through the host institutions.  Read  'underpaid for their
talents' ). 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 17:56:36 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEMLELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ann,

Ann said:
What are you trying to get at? That 6000 members is somehow preferable to
380?
There's certainly no cap on W3C membership, they're actively recruiting.

But if you think that with 6000 member organizations at a lower membership
fee that you'll somehow get better results (with the same budget for
staffing and management), I think you'd be disappointed.

Again, I've managed our membership to the W3C starting on the most
shoe-string of budgets, so "it's too expensive" really rings hollow here.
You either commit to it, or you don't.

Didier reply:
>From a business point of view, probably 380 members is more manageable than
6000. Especially if you get about the same revenue from both numbers.
>From the representation point of view of an industry or of a user base of
more than 100 millions (is it that huge?) 380 is probably insufficient.

So, Does W3C wants to be more representative or more manageable? That is the
question.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 18:04:49 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
Message-ID: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net>

The XHTML 1.0 PR shows (in 3.12) an example of XHTML being included in another
XML document type: (I've changed all the angle brackets so this doesn't get et
by the mail programs)

              [?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?]
              [!-- initially, the default namespace is "books" --]
              [book xmlns='urn:loc.gov:books'
                  xmlns:isbn='urn:ISBN:0-395-36341-6' xml:lang="en" lang="en"]
                [title]Cheaper by the Dozen[/title]
                [isbn:number]1568491379[/isbn:number]
                [notes]
                  [!-- make HTML the default namespace for a hypertext
commentary --]
                  [p xmlns='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml']
                      This is also available [a
href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/a].
                  [/p]
                [/notes]
              [/book]

This uses the default namespace for its work.  Would it be possible (I
think it
should be) to use a prefix?

              [?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?]
              [!-- initially, the default namespace is "books" --]
              [book xmlns='urn:loc.gov:books'
                  xmlns:isbn='urn:ISBN:0-395-36341-6' xml:lang="en" lang="en"]
                [title]Cheaper by the Dozen[/title]
                [isbn:number]1568491379[/isbn:number]
                [notes]
                  [!-- make HTML the default namespace for a hypertext
commentary --]
                  [xhtml:p xmlns:xhtml='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml']
                      This is also available [xhtml:a
xhtml:href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].
                  [/xhtml:p]
                [/notes]
              [/book]

If so, is:

                      This is also available [xhtml:a
xhtml:href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].

equivalent to:

                      This is also available [xhtml:a
href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].

While XHTML seems to assume that attributes with no prefix fall into the
namespace of their containing element throughout, I can't find this stated
explicitly.  (Perhaps they weren't aware that this has been a contentious
issue?)

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Mon Jan 17 18:01:34 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (James Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
Message-ID: <20000117180124.27646.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
[snip] 
>  public static void registerXMLReader (XMLReader reader);
[snip]

Was the idea here to create / maintain some sort of *persistent* list of
installed / registered parsers and their respective features for use by
getXMLReader?

Jim Layer

____________________________________________________________________
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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Mon Jan 17 18:05:53 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0269@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@textuality.com]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 12:46 PM
> 
> At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >The future is outside the web browser.
> 
> Nope.  The only category of application that has any hope of existence
> outside of a browser are authoring apps, whether for docs or graphics.
> 99% of all real-world business apps amount to database retrieval and
> update.  Why would you ever run one of those through anything but a 
> browser?  -Tim

A holy war which has nothing to do with XML.  I've seen the debate over and
over again:  What we're doing these days is so sophisticated, but in order
to do it in a browser we have to jump through so many hoops.  Is it really
worth it, or should we just write a client-side application in Visual Basic
instead, and be done with it?

The more you try and distribute work between the client and the various
servers, the more important the issue becomes.  And I think it's far from an
open-shut case.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mobileq.com
http://www.MobileQ.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 18:08:14 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEMLELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>

At 12:00 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Again, I've managed our membership to the W3C starting on the most
>shoe-string of budgets, so "it's too expensive" really rings hollow here.
>You either commit to it, or you don't.

For a lot of one-person shops, myself included, $5000/year amounts to a
tithe (one part in ten) or much worse.  Perhaps if I felt a deep religious
commitment to the Web, I'd be willing to contribute at this level, but I've
had a hard enough time finding the $250 for OASIS.

Book-writing isn't that lucrative a business, however much I may enjoy it.
I don't see why that should keep me out of the W3C, however.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 18:11:10 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
In-Reply-To: <20000117180124.27646.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net>
References: <20000117180124.27646.qmail@www0l.netaddress.usa.net>
Message-ID: <14467.23315.723375.798293@localhost.localdomain>

James Layer writes:
 > David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
 > [snip] 
 > >  public static void registerXMLReader (XMLReader reader);
 > [snip]
 > 
 > Was the idea here to create / maintain some sort of *persistent* list of
 > installed / registered parsers and their respective features for use by
 > getXMLReader?

Yes, but in retrospect I think it might be overkill -- this kind of
thing belongs at a higher application layer, not in a low-level
driver.  I was never too happy with the SAX1 ParserFactory either.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 17 18:18:11 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:05:10 -0500"
References: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <f5bwvp8zhnq.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> [example elided]
>
> This uses the default namespace for its work.  Would it be possible (I
> think it
> should be) to use a prefix?

Yes.

>               [?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?]
>               [!-- initially, the default namespace is "books" --]
>               [book xmlns='urn:loc.gov:books'
>                   xmlns:isbn='urn:ISBN:0-395-36341-6' xml:lang="en" lang="en"]
>                 [title]Cheaper by the Dozen[/title]
>                 [isbn:number]1568491379[/isbn:number]
>                 [notes]
>                   [!-- make HTML the default namespace for a hypertext
> commentary --]
>                   [xhtml:p xmlns:xhtml='http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml']
>                       This is also available [xhtml:a
> xhtml:href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].
>                   [/xhtml:p]
>                 [/notes]
>               [/book]

One bug:  there are no 'global' attributes in the XHTML DTDs, so that
should be [xhtml:a href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].

> If so, is:
> 
>                       This is also available [xhtml:a
> xhtml:href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].
>
> equivalent to:
> 
>                       This is also available [xhtml:a
> href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].

No.  Only the latter is correct.

> While XHTML seems to assume that attributes with no prefix fall into the
> namespace of their containing element throughout, I can't find this stated
> explicitly.  (Perhaps they weren't aware that this has been a contentious
> issue?)

Why should they state it explicitly, when the Namespace REC explicitly
says that is NOT the case?  The fact that people on this list have
been confused about this does not mean the HTML WG is confused or is
responsible for sorting out their confusion.  See my message to Dave
about this [1] for a succinct statement of why this is a time-wasting
red herring which IS perfectly clearly specified in the Namespace REC.

ht

[1] http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jan-2000/0319.html
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 18:25:58 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:16 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEMLELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <200001171825.NAA02709@hesketh.net>

At 01:08 PM 1/17/00 -0500, I wrote:
>Book-writing isn't that lucrative a business, however much I may enjoy it.
>I don't see why that should keep me out of the W3C, however.

Oh well.  I told Len I wasn't whining about the fees, and Ann irritated me
enough to get me whining about them again.  Once again, though, I'll
happily promise that I have no interest in paying those fees while the W3C
structure remains in its current form.

Strange things happen while I'm writing about namespaces...

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From rk3 at home.com  Mon Jan 17 18:24:33 2000
From: rk3 at home.com (Robert King)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <003c01bf6117$4efb5720$e1e70418@whtrdg1.co.home.com>


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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 18:31:54 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEMLELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117133240.04d64800@216.65.70.29>

At 01:08 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

>Book-writing isn't that lucrative a business, however much I may enjoy it.
>I don't see why that should keep me out of the W3C, however.

It doesn't. Become an invited expert. But you'll have to play by the rules,
and since you've repeatedly said you won't.......not much anyone can do to
help that. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 18:41:04 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: <f5bwvp8zhnq.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:05:10 -0500">
 <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001171840.NAA03642@hesketh.net>

At 06:18 PM 1/17/00 +0000, Henry S. Thompson wrote:
>One bug:  there are no 'global' attributes in the XHTML DTDs, so that
>should be [xhtml:a href="http://www.w3.org/"]online[/xhtml:a].

Okay, although 'class' is explicitly mentioned in the Namespace draft as
one possibility:

NS>XML 1.0 does not provide a built-in way to declare "global" 
NS>attributes; items such as the HTML CLASS attribute are global
NS>only in their prose description and their interpretation by HTML
applications.  

and I'd have to call the description of global attributes provided in the
Rec murky at best.  Perhaps this is something the Schemas work will improve
upon.  The infoset draft doesn't mention it at all.

>> While XHTML seems to assume that attributes with no prefix fall into the
>> namespace of their containing element throughout, I can't find this stated
>> explicitly.  (Perhaps they weren't aware that this has been a contentious
>> issue?)
>
>Why should they state it explicitly, when the Namespace REC explicitly
>says that is NOT the case?  

Because the manner in which the Namespace REC 'explicitly says that is NOT
the case' is not very clear,  to put it mildly, and because this issue is
questioned on a quarterly basis in depth on at least one of the many
mailing lists focused on XML.  Stating it in the XHTML REC would, among
other things, provide a clear example of how namespaces _should_ work in
addition to the often-shot-at namespaces REC. 

>The fact that people on this list have
>been confused about this does not mean the HTML WG is confused or is
>responsible for sorting out their confusion.  See my message to Dave
>about this [1] for a succinct statement of why this is a time-wasting
>red herring which IS perfectly clearly specified in the Namespace REC.

Given the enormous amount of time wasted on this 'red herring', I'd suggest
that this issue get some kind of _official_ clean-up, perhaps in its
currently brief errata. [2]  It would be nice for there to be less
developer confusion on this issue.

[1] - http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jan-2000/0319.html
[2] - http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-names-19990114-errata

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From paul at qub.com  Mon Jan 17 18:48:18 2000
From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <00a701bf611b$2b527a20$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>


----- Original Message -----
From: Simon St.Laurent <simonstl@simonstl.com>


> At 12:00 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
> >Again, I've managed our membership to the W3C starting on the most
> >shoe-string of budgets, so "it's too expensive" really rings hollow here.
> >You either commit to it, or you don't.
>
> For a lot of one-person shops, myself included, $5000/year amounts to a
> tithe (one part in ten) or much worse.  Perhaps if I felt a deep religious
> commitment to the Web, I'd be willing to contribute at this level, but I've
> had a hard enough time finding the $250 for OASIS.

<http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining>
There are two classes of membership: Full and Affiliate. The annual fee for Full Members
is $US 50,000. The annual fee for Affiliate Members is $US 5,000. There are no differences
in Member benefits between the two classes of membership. All new Members must commit to a
three-year initial term of membership. After that, membership renews annually.
</http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining>

I think it says that  3 * 5 =  $15.000.

Rgds.Paul.

PS. Ah, does not matter, does not matter ...
James Clark is still there.




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From ray at xmission.com  Mon Jan 17 18:55:37 2000
From: ray at xmission.com (Ray Whitmer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMFELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <388369CA.BD794434@xmission.com>

Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Hi Ray,
>
> Ray said:
> So, to restate the question, what is the problem with the "hasFeature" call
> of
> DOM?

I did not see an explanation of that before, nor do I see one below.  You were
proposing something that seems very equivalent to hasFeature.

> Didier reply:
> I already explained all this in a previous post on XML-dev. to restate it
> briefly:
>
> a) case one: we banish everything that is not Java, JavaScript or created
> with a CORBA IDL because everything else is not defined in the DOM
> recommendation. This is not very practical since there is alternative
> middleware or other languages than the one listed.

This seems to be a straw man.

> b) we consider the DOM recommendation as a template. The data types may vary
> (the DOMString is only an example, string may be different in different
> languages) but, we use the DOM as a template. As long as the function names
> are respected and that we can package these functions is something that
> resemble an interface (i.e. an object, etc...) it is OK.

Add to this, that players in each domain SHOULD standardize their specific
bindings.  It does less good if there are multiple COM implementations out there.  I
mention
COM because there apparently _are_ multiple incompatible COM implementations out
there.  To the best of my knowledge, no independent implementor of the spec tried to
sit down at the beginning and write up the COM binding as an open public standard,
so we can expect that they are not interoperable.  Blame the W3C if you like for not
wanting to explicitly produce every standard binding, but the generic standard
already moves slowly enough without the added weight.  I place the blame on COM DOM
implementors who had interoperability as a requirement and failed to follow through
with a standards document.  It should have been obvious as they privately made up
interface and class identifiers and did not standardize them with others making
similar efforts that they would not be interoperable.  If they did not have
interoperability as a requirement, then that speaks volumes by itself.  If they
thought it was W3C's responsibility, well, they were mistaken.  They should have at
least published a note to the W3C, and I still hope someone does so that all the
other implementations can be judged as private tinkering never designed to be
interoperable, and implementations designed to be interoperable will be.

> So, let's now say that it is (B). It will be an interpretation since it is
> not explicitly said anywhere. Contrary to that, everywhere in the
> recommendation is displayed CORBA interfaces so, this may lead to think that
> this is the official religion and other stuff is heresy. Anyway, let's play
> the supreme court judges and say that our jurisprudence is that the DOM
> recommendation are simply templates are that the CORBA interfaces are simply
> guidelines.

They are much stronger than guidelines, but they cannot reasonably dictate all the
idiosyncrasies that a particular language or object model binding has to establish
in order to accomplish interoperability.  That has to be done language-by-language.
It must be standardized to be effective.  That doesn't mean that W3C ever intended
to do all the work for all bindings themselves.

The tools are there, but the standards work only starts when a DOM spec is
released.  Please note that this attention is required regardless of the level 2
issues of adding methods to interfaces.  It had to start with level 1, or it
certainly won't work with level 2.

> Let's make a concrete proposal (again the interface here is based on the (b)
> interpretation and could be taken as a template)
>
> interface DOMComponent
> {
>         boolean HasFeatures(....); // we have here the same parameters as in the
> DOM specifications
>         object QueryDOM(DOMString); // could be actually "DOM1" or "DOM2" returns
> an object (i.e. could be actually a "document" interface and in year 2020 a
> "library" interface. so we say here an untyped object. Each platform may
> adapt this to its world.
> }

Seems quite unwieldy and unnecessary to me.  While this is similar to how COM solves
the issue, it seems unnecessary in Javascript, for example.  There is less arbitrary
or haphazard modification to DOM interfaces than your posting implies.  A Java, COM,
Perl, Javascript, or other DOM binding can be extended for level 2 without too much
trouble such that a level 1 application never knows the difference, while not
subjecting the user to unreasonable crossed-over baggage from other object models.
Counterexamples will be gladly examined.  There already are mechanisms in DOM for
solving these situations where they crop up, but "core" functionality is "core" so
that the application doesn't have to wonder with every new node whether it is
available.  I find it extremely unworkable to have to query node-by-node for core
functionality.

> Thus, a client first ask for this interface to query for the capabilities,
> then obtain with the QueryDOMInterface the first node. The algorithm is:
> a) Obtain the DOMComponent interface (in XPCOM or DCOM get it from the class
> factory)
> b) Get the DOM component capabilities with the HasFeatures member
> c) if the required feature is present, then use the QueryDOM. We could have
> said here queryDOM interface or QueryDOMObject. But in some environment it
> may be an object for other an interface, so let's make it more neutral with
> QueryDOM. This latter member returns an object (i.e. an interface).

Something like this is fine for COM.  I don't think I would choose exactly your
model, even for COM after having heard lots of arguments.  And it is clearly
inappropriate for some languages.

> But, instead of adding this interface we have always the alternative to say
> that XPCOM and DCOM is heresy and that everybody that is using that should
> be burned in hell. If that is the case, please, give me at least some time
> to email my fellow colleagues at Mozilla.org to ask for a refugee status
> :-)))
>

This is not at all what was being proposed.  It is proposed that COM extend the
interfaces in a way that COM is designed to be extended, and that others do the
same, adequately standardizing and publishing the required binding-specific details
to make it interoperable.  How methods are added is only one of many issues.

> PS: I have read your page on CROS and look forward reading more an hopefully
> experimenting with it in the future.

I hope to do great things with it.  But if it doesn't become something that meets
requirements much better than what we have now (which doesn't seem too hard right
now, after an extensive search) I will abandon it myself.

Best regards,

Ray Whitmer
ray@xmission.com



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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 18:59:26 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <00a701bf611b$2b527a20$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>
References: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001171859.NAA04725@hesketh.net>

At 10:46 AM 1/17/00 -0800, Paul Tchistopolskii wrote:
>is $US 50,000. The annual fee for Affiliate Members is $US 5,000. There
are no differences
>in Member benefits between the two classes of membership. All new Members
must commit to a
>three-year initial term of membership. After that, membership renews
annually.
></http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining>
>
>I think it says that  3 * 5 =  $15.000.

>From what I understand, though, they don't require the 15 grand up front -
just the commitment and $5000.  I could well be wrong, though, and I'd very
much like to hear if I am on that one.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From rk3 at home.com  Mon Jan 17 18:58:26 2000
From: rk3 at home.com (Robert King)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: unsunscribe
Message-ID: <014401bf611b$fbeba940$e1e70418@whtrdg1.co.home.com>

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 19:01:47 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:08:26 -0500"
References: <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29> <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m37lh8v7yg.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> For a lot of one-person shops, myself included, $5000/year amounts to a
> tithe (one part in ten) or much worse.  Perhaps if I felt a deep religious
> commitment to the Web, I'd be willing to contribute at this level, but I've
> had a hard enough time finding the $250 for OASIS.
> 
> Book-writing isn't that lucrative a business, however much I may enjoy it.
> I don't see why that should keep me out of the W3C, however.

Let's make the following assumptions:

1. You make US$50K/year from book writing and consulting.
2. You work at or near full capacity.
3. Tomorrow, the W3C decides to make membership free.

Now, you decide to join just one of the WGs.  To join, you have to
agree to commit (I think) 20% of your time to the WG (more if you're
an editor, chair, or technical lead) which means that the base cost
for you of getting involved is US$10K/year.  On top of that, you have
to pay the long-distance charges for, say, a one-hour weekly
teleconference and you have to pay travel expenses to at least a
couple of face-to-face meetings, not all of which are in North
America.

TOTAL COST: at least US$12K/year for each WG you join.

Now, that's better than the US$17K it would have cost if you had to
pay the membership fee as well, but it's hardly sustainable for a
one-person consulting shop either way.

I'd suggest, then, that the biggest barrier right now is not the fee
but the whole committee structure and process of the W3C -- it's
designed for companies that can afford to free up engineers to do
standards work, and that tends to mean companies with revenues over
US$5M/year.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com  Mon Jan 17 19:06:38 2000
From: aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com (=?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B34B@world.cinnober.com>

> Become an invited expert. 

This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become an
invited expert? Not that I'll be one ever... :)

        - Aleksi

-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Navarro [mailto:ann@webgeek.com]
Sent: den 17 januari 2000 19:33
To: Simon St.Laurent; xml-dev
Subject: RE: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article


At 01:08 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

>Book-writing isn't that lucrative a business, however much I may enjoy it.
>I don't see why that should keep me out of the W3C, however.

It doesn't. Become an invited expert. But you'll have to play by the rules,
and since you've repeatedly said you won't.......not much anyone can do to
help that. 

Ann
---
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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 19:04:20 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:05:10 -0500"
References: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m34sccv7u7.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> If so, is:
> 
>                       This is also available <xhtml:a
> xhtml:href="http://www.w3.org/">online</xhtml:a>.
> 
> equivalent to:
> 
>                       This is also available <xhtml:a
> href="http://www.w3.org/">online</xhtml:a>.
> 
> While XHTML seems to assume that attributes with no prefix fall into
> the namespace of their containing element throughout, I can't find
> this stated explicitly.  (Perhaps they weren't aware that this has
> been a contentious issue?)

Yes, it would have been better if RDF and XHTML had included explicit
statements to this effect, though I have yet to see a spec that does
things the other way.  It's not too late for XHTML -- try submitting a 
formal comment to the WG before it goes to REC.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 19:13:14 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: <m37lh8v7yg.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:08:26 -0500">
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <200001171913.OAA05986@hesketh.net>

At 02:01 PM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>I'd suggest, then, that the biggest barrier right now is not the fee
>but the whole committee structure and process of the W3C -- it's
>designed for companies that can afford to free up engineers to do
>standards work, and that tends to mean companies with revenues over
>US$5M/year.

Agreed - but changing that process appears to take a lot more gumption than
is currently available.

There's a lot more at stake in changing the W3C process than lowering fees,
but I'd suggest that all of it is worth considering.  The fees may well be
only a symptom - I could hardly disagree with that.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 19:16:21 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk's message of "17 Jan 2000 18:18:01 +0000"
References: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net> <f5bwvp8zhnq.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m3ya9otspl.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) writes:

[on prefixed and unprefixed attributes]

> Why should they state it explicitly, when the Namespace REC explicitly
> says that is NOT the case?  The fact that people on this list have
> been confused about this does not mean the HTML WG is confused or is
> responsible for sorting out their confusion.  See my message to Dave
> about this [1] for a succinct statement of why this is a time-wasting
> red herring which IS perfectly clearly specified in the Namespace
> REC.

The language in the Namespaces REC means that the two *can* be
distinguished, not that they must be, and every Namespaces-based spec
should include a explicit statement of its usage.  Based on the
examples in the spec, RDF, for example, doesn't distinguish

  <rdf:Description about="http://www.foo.com/">

from

  <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://www.foo.com/">

and I'll note that it is entirely conformant in not doing so.  In
XHTML, likewise, we have to infer what its usage is from examples
unless the WG gives us a explicit statement.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 17 19:16:44 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000117111603.01524b40@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:01 PM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Now, you decide to join just one of the WGs.  To join, you have to
>agree to commit (I think) 20% of your time to the WG 

It varies from WG to WG but 20% is typical. 

>(more if you're
>an editor, chair, or technical lead) 

Yep.

And in my experience, it *takes* that 20% just to stay on top of the
issues so that when you say something, it's well-informed and useful. 

It's a problem. -T.

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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 19:19:16 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B34B@world.cinnober.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117141830.04d99bd0@216.65.70.29>

At 08:05 PM 1/17/00 +0100, =?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?= wrote:
>> Become an invited expert. 
>
>This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become an
>invited expert? Not that I'll be one ever... :)

It can happen a variety of ways. The WG chair or another participant may
know of someone's expertise on a particular topic, and suggest that the
individual be contacted and invited. 

Someone may demonstrate appropriate expertise on a lists such as these, and
be invited. 

Someone may directly contact a participate and ask to be invited -- though
such a direct route should of course be accompanied by supporting evidence
of expertise and an acknowledgement of availability to participate fully
(calls, email, face to face meetings). I don't think chairs want to be
inundated :), but of course it's possible that group members and chairs
won't always be aware of someone with skills that would compliment the group. 

Ann

---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 19:19:47 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: W3C policy [Was: Microsoft's responce ...]
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <3883654C.7118AA71@pacbell.net>

Several folk pointed out, using various words, that

> 	 The W3C's
> secrecy policies are there because it is a treaty organization of
> competitors, not a friendly group of collaborators.  

Ah, so it's like the IEEE or IETF, just not open?

- Dave

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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 17 19:21:32 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000117112100.01524e20@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:05 PM 1/17/00 +0100, =?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?= wrote:
>This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become an
>invited expert?

One good way is to say lots of intelligent things on xml-dev (or the
equivalent public mailing lists for HTML or DOM or SVG or whatever).  An
even better way is to write software that implements something that's
under development.  Some combination of these, I believe, got Megginson, 
Cowan, and Tauber got invited. -T.


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 19:23:44 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000a01bf60b8$a7c5a4a0$481b12d1@WORKGROUP>
	 <200001171512.KAA23695@hesketh.net> <200001171636.LAA28287@hesketh.net> <14467.18626.562852.684242@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <38836C35.25AFF83B@pacbell.net>

Sebastian Rahtz wrote:
> 
>  > XSL-FOs?
> foul! FO  spec is unfinished.

Actually, perhaps that means it's right on the mark.  It's
better to have code (such as FOP? ;-) implementing drafts,
and turning up bugs therein, than to wait till any sort of
"Candidate REC" stage to start such work.

Admittedly, tracking a moving target is a hassle, but I've
seen more good come out of such work than otherwise.  Once
organizations start to "freeze" a spec, willingness to fix
it starts to go away, even in the face of substantial bugs
that turn up.  While the drawing board is still out, fixes
can easily be applied.  When it's closed up, that's not so
any longer.

- Dave

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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 19:27:29 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: The DOM: the realist and the implementer
In-Reply-To: <388369CA.BD794434@xmission.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKENAELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ray,

Ray said:
I did not see an explanation of that before, nor do I see one below.  You
were
proposing something that seems very equivalent to hasFeature.

Didier reply:
Sorry Ray, it seems that the problem is out of range of your understanding.
I do not not now what is the something that you do not understand. Maybe
before going further you can read a bit about XPCOM (ref:
http://www.mozilla.org) or DCOM (choice here get the doc at microsoft site
or code for Linux at WINE site which URL I do not remember) Yes it indeed
keep the same kind of result as HasFeature but resolve the problem for XPCOM
and DCOM early binding DOM component.

Ray said:
Add to this, that players in each domain SHOULD standardize their specific
bindings.  It does less good if there are multiple COM implementations out
there.  I
mention
COM because there apparently _are_ multiple incompatible COM implementations
out
there.  To the best of my knowledge, no independent implementor of the spec
tried to
sit down at the beginning and write up the COM binding as an open public
standard,
so we can expect that they are not interoperable.  Blame the W3C if you like
for not
wanting to explicitly produce every standard binding, but the generic
standard
already moves slowly enough without the added weight.  I place the blame on
COM DOM
implementors who had interoperability as a requirement and failed to follow
through
with a standards document.  It should have been obvious as they privately
made up
interface and class identifiers and did not standardize them with others
making
similar efforts that they would not be interoperable.  If they did not have
interoperability as a requirement, then that speaks volumes by itself.  If
they
thought it was W3C's responsibility, well, they were mistaken.  They should
have at
least published a note to the W3C, and I still hope someone does so that all
the
other implementations can be judged as private tinkering never designed to
be
interoperable, and implementations designed to be interoperable will be.


Didier reply:
Yes I agree with you Ray, I ven asked several month ago (or years?) why is
the COM IDL not included in the recommendations and got fuzzy answers
denoting some political issues behind the answers (surely not technical
ones). Off course, my intent is to ?blicaly publish a COM and XPCOM idl so
that ambiguity is resolved once and for all (hopefully, I do not have 30 000
people working for me nor do I have billions in revenus but at least has the
decency to provide my component users a clear contract).

Ray said:
They are much stronger than guidelines, but they cannot reasonably dictate
all the
idiosyncrasies that a particular language or object model binding has to
establish
in order to accomplish interoperability.  That has to be done
language-by-language.
It must be standardized to be effective.  That doesn't mean that W3C ever
intended
to do all the work for all bindings themselves.

The tools are there, but the standards work only starts when a DOM spec is
released.  Please note that this attention is required regardless of the
level 2
issues of adding methods to interfaces.  It had to start with level 1, or it
certainly won't work with level 2.

Didier reply:
For any CORBA compliant ORB these interface definitions are implementable,
for everything else, only templates.

Ray said:
Seems quite unwieldy and unnecessary to me.  While this is similar to how
COM solves
the issue, it seems unnecessary in Javascript, for example.  There is less
arbitrary
or haphazard modification to DOM interfaces than your posting implies.  A
Java, COM,
Perl, Javascript, or other DOM binding can be extended for level 2 without
too much
trouble such that a level 1 application never knows the difference, while
not
subjecting the user to unreasonable crossed-over baggage from other object
models.
Counterexamples will be gladly examined.  There already are mechanisms in
DOM for
solving these situations where they crop up, but "core" functionality is
"core" so
that the application doesn't have to wonder with every new node whether it
is
available.  I find it extremely unworkable to have to query node-by-node for
core
functionality.

Didier reply:
Who said node by node you? surely not me read again the posting. I said an
interface to query the capabilities of the component. Not an interface to be
added to any interface. Most of all, it is not all middleware that does
support the queryInterface mechanism. So, let's forget it. The only
sufficient thing is to provide an interface that the client where the client
can query the component capabilities, obtain the first node (which as I said
can change in times - ref: example of the actual "document" root which could
eveolve into the "library" root node). After you get the root node (of
wahtever class or type if may become) you have what the actual or current
recommandation states. The mechanism is only to provide for early binding
middleware a non changing interface so that client can probe the component
capabilities without experimenting any crash. Off course, new middleware as
your can provide a better answer than XPCOM or COM but it remains that for
those using these middleware, a robust solution has to be provided. And this
solution is not to tell them, go buy or use a CORBA ORB.

Ray said:
Something like this is fine for COM.  I don't think I would choose exactly
your
model, even for COM after having heard lots of arguments.  And it is clearly
inappropriate for some languages.

Didier reply:
OK ray, what would you propose for COM then. I am listening. Hoops I forgot,
your solution has also to work with XPCOM too. OK, I am all hears to what
you'll say.


Ray said:
This is not at all what was being proposed.  It is proposed that COM extend
the
interfaces in a way that COM is designed to be extended, and that others do
the
same, adequately standardizing and publishing the required binding-specific
details
to make it interoperable.  How methods are added is only one of many issues.

Didier reply:
What are you talking about Ray? You said that, I never proposed this. I am
trying to find a solution for a problem experimented with DCOM and XPCOM
based components (using early binding) and propose a solution which is
better than a system crash to know if the component provides or not the
service. We could have used the CLSID but this does not necessarily work
with XPCOM. So, the solution is a compromise for both world.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Mon Jan 17 19:33:34 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: String interning
In-Reply-To: David Brownell's message of "Fri, 14 Jan 2000 14:26:18 -0800"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m33ds0h5bh.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <387F84E8.BE3254BA@pacbell.net> <14463.34932.93100.728676@localhost.localdomain> <387FA28A.AE4BC5E2@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <uzou4ze5y.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

David> David Brownell <URL:mailto:david-b@pacbell.net>

0> In article <387FA28A.AE4BC5E2@pacbell.net>, David wrote:

David> 3. Let SAX2 event producers expose which policy they use, so
David>    that components which require interning can fail cleanly (at
David>    setup time) if their inputs don't do it.

This also allows consumers to push a SAX interner (a filter) onto the
producer, so that all output from the filter is interned.  This needs
to be done just once, at setup time, so no other part of the consumer
is affected.  And there's no overhead added if the producer generates
interned names.


    boolean namesAreInterned =
        xmlReader.getFeature("http://xml.org/sax/features/interned-names");

    if (namesAreInterned)
        xmlReader = new SAXInterner(xmlReader);

    // The 'interned-names' feature will always be true at this point.

    // Now add the handlers...

-- 


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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 17 19:38:58 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000117113740.01321b80@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:23 AM 1/17/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>> foul! FO  spec is unfinished.
>
>Actually, perhaps that means it's right on the mark.  It's
>better to have code (such as FOP? ;-) implementing drafts,
>and turning up bugs therein, than to wait till any sort of
>"Candidate REC" stage to start such work.

And I'm happy to report that there is an implementation in place,
and being madly extended as we write, in the Apache project (see
http://xml.apache.org).   Any others? -Tim


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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 17 19:38:02 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <00a701bf611b$2b527a20$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACENDELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Paul,

Probaly your mail system has a problem recognizing me :-)) or what I said,
but I did not said what you mail mention. Ann did so we should read

> At 12:00 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Ann Navaro wrote:

PS: Simon, its even worse, you would have to pay 15 000$ to be a member. Ann
what is your receipe to (a) pay only 5000$ or (b) get 15 000$ on shoe-string
budget?? I need some financial advises here, there is something I should
learn :-)

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com
--------------------------------------------
> At 12:00 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
> >Again, I've managed our membership to the W3C starting on the most
> >shoe-string of budgets, so "it's too expensive" really rings hollow here.
> >You either commit to it, or you don't.
>
> For a lot of one-person shops, myself included, $5000/year amounts to a
> tithe (one part in ten) or much worse.  Perhaps if I felt a deep religious
> commitment to the Web, I'd be willing to contribute at this level, but
I've
> had a hard enough time finding the $250 for OASIS.

<http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining>
There are two classes of membership: Full and Affiliate. The annual fee for
Full Members
is $US 50,000. The annual fee for Affiliate Members is $US 5,000. There are
no differences
in Member benefits between the two classes of membership. All new Members
must commit to a
three-year initial term of membership. After that, membership renews
annually.
</http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Prospectus/Joining>

I think it says that  3 * 5 =  $15.000.

Rgds.Paul.

PS. Ah, does not matter, does not matter ...
James Clark is still there.




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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 19:41:16 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <4.3.0.25.20000116171742.04ca1810@mail.dt1.sdca.home.com> <20000117070009.F21670@w3.org>
Message-ID: <38837057.50CDC09B@pacbell.net>

Daniel Veillard wrote:
> 
> Even a completely open process can end-up in a arbitrary decision.

If it's "open", I think that'll be false.  In fact, the lack
of ability to make such arbitrary decisions is a criticism
that some wave against openness:  sometimes you just need to
move on, and you need someone with the moral authority to
decide (e.g. Linus) so things can move on.  (In all honesty,
I don't think Tim B-L has corresponding authority now.)


> For examples people have been coding USB support for more than two years
> Linus didn't like it, and rewrote a new USB layer from scratch.

A better characterization: USB support had been getting nowhere,
and baroque, largely due to it being a one person project.  So
Linus and a few others did a rewrite (in the 2.2.7 kernel) and
most importantly opened it up ... it's been steadily moving forward
ever since.  

Moral there:  A closed process got replaced by an open one, which
proved to be quite effective at producing better results.

Note:  just because everyone can get the "open" source doesn't mean
that everyone's in the core design team.  The process issue is that
the core team needs to be out in the open, accessible, and willing
to listen.  W3C's process is weak on those points.

- Dave

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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 19:43:46 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000117111603.01524b40@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117144233.04d9eee0@216.65.70.29>

At 11:16 AM 1/17/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:

>And in my experience, it *takes* that 20% just to stay on top of the
>issues so that when you say something, it's well-informed and useful. 
>
>It's a problem. -T.

I'm not sure it's a "problem" per se, but a real need when you've got a
diverse group working with complex, cutting-edge technologies trying to put
out recommendations within (typically) 12-18 months. 

If the group can't rely on all participants being reasonably up to speed,
work will only slow down. 

Casual comments and input can be had in interest groups and fora like
www-<listname> for those that don't have the time. 

If the time dedication requirement were removed, I'm not sure how that
*improves* the process (note that simply lowering the barrier to entry and
letting more people participate isn't a de facto "improvement"). 

Ann
---
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From greynolds at datalogics.com  Mon Jan 17 19:50:20 2000
From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401B1711F@martinique>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tim Bray [mailto:tbray@textuality.com]
> Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 1:16 PM
> 
> And in my experience, it *takes* that 20% just to stay on top of the
> issues so that when you say something, it's well-informed and useful. 
> 
> It's a problem. -T.
> 

Wow, you can do that with just 8 hours a week?  :)  In my experience, that's
just enough to take a sip from the firehose without getting my lips ripped
off.  Rarely enought time to also think up solutions - comments are
tantamount to pleas for the people doing the designing to pay attention to
your concerns.  In an open process there would at least be the possibility
that sheer numbers would help ensure everybody's concerns are addressed.  Or
at least find out if others share those concerns.

-gregg

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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Mon Jan 17 19:50:21 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <4.1.20000117141830.04d99bd0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <016d01bf6123$66a2d400$47bdb3c7@WORKGROUP>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Navarro" <ann@webgeek.com>
To: "xml-dev" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 2:20 PM
Subject: RE: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article


> At 08:05 PM 1/17/00 +0100, =?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?= wrote:
> >> Become an invited expert.
> >
> >This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become
an
> >invited expert? Not that I'll be one ever... :)
>
> It can happen a variety of ways. The WG chair or another participant may
> know of someone's expertise on a particular topic, and suggest that the
> individual be contacted and invited.
>
> Someone may demonstrate appropriate expertise on a lists such as these,
and
> be invited.

In my W3C experience, that's far and away the best way to get invited.
Postings here and on the public w3c lists that are sympathetic to the
objectives of some WG but contain detailed, helpful critiques and
suggestions that are directly relevant to the public draft of some spec will
be much appreciated by the Chairs and will get you considered as an invited
expert if the need arises.


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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 19:52:14 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <200001171859.NAA04725@hesketh.net>
References: <00a701bf611b$2b527a20$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117145345.04d76e10@216.65.70.29>

At 01:59 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

>>From what I understand, though, they don't require the 15 grand up front -
>just the commitment and $5000.  I could well be wrong, though, and I'd very
>much like to hear if I am on that one.

You're correct. It's billed annually, first installment upon execution of
the agreement. 

Ann
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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 19:50:50 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: <m37lh8v7yg.fsf_-_@localhost.localdomain>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:08:26 -0500">
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117145203.04d6cb90@216.65.70.29>

At 02:01 PM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:

>I'd suggest, then, that the biggest barrier right now is not the fee
>but the whole committee structure and process of the W3C -- it's
>designed for companies that can afford to free up engineers to do
>standards work, and that tends to mean companies with revenues over
>US$5M/year.


Nah....I've got a budget a fraction of that, and we've got participants on
multiple groups. 
It Can Be Done. 

Ann
---
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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 20:02:25 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000117145203.04d6cb90@216.65.70.29>
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:08:26 -0500">
	<4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
	<200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
	<4.1.20000117145203.04d6cb90@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <14467.29995.177497.891907@localhost.localdomain>

Ann Navarro writes:

 > At 02:01 PM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
 > 
 > >I'd suggest, then, that the biggest barrier right now is not the
 > >fee but the whole committee structure and process of the W3C --
 > >it's designed for companies that can afford to free up engineers
 > >to do standards work, and that tends to mean companies with
 > >revenues over US$5M/year.
 > 
 > Nah....I've got a budget a fraction of that, and we've got
 > participants on multiple groups.  It Can Be Done.

Non-profit groups are a special case, since in some cases the
standards work *is* their main work rather than a distraction from it
(and besides, your staff is probably relatively cheap -- I'd guess
that a top-notch senior software engineer costs US$100K to
US$150K/year or more in the hot tech areas).  The same applies to
academics.

I was thinking more of a typical small, for-profit company.  Let's say
that the company has a couple of million in VenCap, five engineers
(two senior, three junior), and about 10 other staff (sales,
management, tech writing, QA, etc.), and is racing to get out its
first major release.

Can a company like that reasonably devote 20% of one of the senior
engineers' time to a W3C WG?  Maybe, if the engineer made it a
condition of employment or if the WG's work were critical to the
company's success or failure, but I doubt that either is the typical
case.

That said, I think that Ann and I probably agree that the real cost of
W3C work or any othe standards work is not the $5K fee but the human
time that a company has to invest.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 20:07:37 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACENDELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <00a701bf611b$2b527a20$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117150732.04da4cb0@216.65.70.29>

At 01:41 AM 1/17/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:

>PS: Simon, its even worse, you would have to pay 15 000$ to be a member. Ann
>what is your receipe to (a) pay only 5000$ or (b) get 15 000$ on shoe-string
>budget??

It's an annual fee, you don't have to write a $15K check. 

There's no "recipe" other than prioritization. We decided that W3C
participation was an important part of what we do, and therefore the budget
reflected that choice. The same goes for any other budget decision, if it's
important enough, you find a way to pay for it. The idea that a company has
to be bringing in mid to high 7 figures before you can afford it is just,
well, silly, IMO. 

Ann
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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Mon Jan 17 20:12:14 2000
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net> from "Peter Murray-Rust" at Jan 17, 0 10:19:28 pm
Message-ID: <200001172021.PAA01847@locke.ccil.org>

Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:

> 	- tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing

The XML Rec does not forbid a parser to treat validation errors as fatal.

> 	- REC-xml and DOM specify DTD but spec.dtd is not mounted

Non-validating parsers that read DTDs are entitled to get upset
if the DTD cannot be read.

> 	- several tools regard the absence of a DTD as a fatal error (i.e. they
> appear to be validating by default).

Again, that behvaior is not forbidden.

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 17 20:22:29 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:17 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <200001172021.PAA01847@locke.ccil.org>
References: <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <200001172022.PAA10423@hesketh.net>

At 03:21 PM 1/17/00 -0500, John Cowan wrote:
>Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
>
>> 	- tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing
>
>The XML Rec does not forbid a parser to treat validation errors as fatal.
>
>> 	- REC-xml and DOM specify DTD but spec.dtd is not mounted
>
>Non-validating parsers that read DTDs are entitled to get upset
>if the DTD cannot be read.
>
>> 	- several tools regard the absence of a DTD as a fatal error (i.e. they
>> appear to be validating by default).
>
>Again, that behvaior is not forbidden.

I don't think Peter's point is that these behaviors are forbidden, but
rather that they make interoperability difficult.  Perhaps a few more
things should have been forbidden. 

Peter wrote:
>Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
>correct tools and that interoperability is achievable. 

I'd love to show that as well, but lately I seem to be writing books that
detail the possible pitfalls and suggest strategies for avoiding them
rather than claiming XML makes interoperability easy.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From ann at webgeek.com  Mon Jan 17 20:23:45 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
In-Reply-To: <14467.29995.177497.891907@localhost.localdomain>
References: <4.1.20000117145203.04d6cb90@216.65.70.29>
 <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:08:26 -0500">
 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29>
 <200001171808.NAA01785@hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000117145203.04d6cb90@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000117152435.04da3100@216.65.70.29>

At 03:01 PM 1/17/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:

>Can a company like that reasonably devote 20% of one of the senior
>engineers' time to a W3C WG?  Maybe, if the engineer made it a
>condition of employment or if the WG's work were critical to the
>company's success or failure, but I doubt that either is the typical
>case.

Probably not, but participation can also give them a competitive edge,
contacts, and a variety of other goodwill that is difficult to quantify in
terms of dollars ROI. 


>That said, I think that Ann and I probably agree that the real cost of
>W3C work or any othe standards work is not the $5K fee but the human
>time that a company has to invest.

Yes 

(though I wouldn't make toooo many assumptions about my staff costs :) )

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

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From tmmet at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 17 20:41:55 2000
From: tmmet at hotmail.com (tmmet tvp)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: XML and java
Message-ID: <20000117204120.60585.qmail@hotmail.com>

Hi,
I tried to load an XML file in my java file as follows...
	public boolean GetTags()
	{
		String strxmlDoc = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.xmldom");
		m_strxmlDoc.load("<BOOK><BOOK1 Author = "Noone" Title = "God 
knows"></BOOK1></BOOK>);

	}
I'm getting an error "Undefined name ActiveXObject".
What should I install/include to get out of this error.
Thanks in advance.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 17 20:43:52 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
In-Reply-To: Tim Bray's message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 11:21:01 -0800"
References: <3.0.32.20000117112100.01524e20@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <m3vh4stonu.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com> writes:

> At 08:05 PM 1/17/00 +0100, =?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?= wrote:
> >This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become an
> >invited expert?
> 
> One good way is to say lots of intelligent things on xml-dev (or the
> equivalent public mailing lists for HTML or DOM or SVG or whatever).  An
> even better way is to write software that implements something that's
> under development.  Some combination of these, I believe, got Megginson, 
> Cowan, and Tauber got invited. -T.

Actually, I started from a member company (Microstar), and became an
invited expert once I went out on my own.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk  Mon Jan 17 21:18:19 2000
From: sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000117113740.01321b80@pop.intergate.ca>
References: <3.0.32.20000117113740.01321b80@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <14467.33398.582910.925061@spqr.>

Tim Bray writes:
 > At 11:23 AM 1/17/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
 > >> foul! FO  spec is unfinished.
 > >
 > >Actually, perhaps that means it's right on the mark.  It's
 > >better to have code (such as FOP? ;-) implementing drafts,
 > >and turning up bugs therein, than to wait till any sort of
 > >"Candidate REC" stage to start such work.

I would not pursue XSL-FO too far as an example, actually. I do not
think anyone would characterize the relationship between the WG and
the developers as very healthy. XSLT is probably an excellent example, 
where the rapid implementations helped drive drafts, so far as one can 
see. Moral: a) have James Clark on a WG; b) produce something people
want. 

 > And I'm happy to report that there is an implementation in place,
 > and being madly extended as we write, in the Apache project (see
 > http://xml.apache.org).   Any others? -Tim

At least 3, yes. RenderX has probably got the farthest, in their
idiosyncratic way; Arbortext has announced it (did it ever ship? was
due this month); and my PassiveTeX exists for those who already have a 
TeX setup (and its the only one which implements math).

I shall read the chapter on XSL FO with interest, when the history of
the W3C is chosen. The impression that a good idea is being destroyed
by internal interference sometimes peeps through. I expect I am wrong
though, and I aint a member[1] so I can't see the mailing lists....

Sebastian

[1] what, an ancient university like Oxford give $5000 to someone
else???


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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 21:36:54 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EF@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38838AF7.9B3845CE@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> Tyler Baker wrote,
> > For most documents, making a call to String.intern()
> > 50-100 times in a 100KB document is a lot less expensive than
> > doing:
> >
> > if (x.equals("foo") {
> >
> > }
> > else if (x.equals("bar") {
> >
> > }
> > etc...
> >
> > As opposed to:
> >
> > if (x == "foo") {
> >
> > }
> > else if (x == "bar) {
> >
> >}
> > etc.
> >
> > Calling the equals method can get expensive for large case > > statements.
>
> Sure ... so Don't Do That (tm) ...
>
> If you've got what's effectively a huge case statement then
> use a lookup table ... a HashMap or a trie of some sort or
> another. Either of those will outperform a large number of
> chained String.equals() calls or == tests.

If you are using interned strings, a HashMap becomes much faster anyways. But that will
not outperform a bunch of identity tests as they are one of the fastest operations in
Java. As someone who has written an XML Parser before, I can tell you and so can many of
the other people on this list, that at the application level it is much faster to deal
with interned strings in case logic, than otherwise.

Even if you choose not to do identity tests in your case logic, using a HashMap or just
using String.equals() will be much faster because the implementation of the
String.equals() method goes like this:

public boolean equals(Object anObject) {
 if (this == anObject) {
     return true;
 }
 if ((anObject != null) && (anObject instanceof String)) {
  String anotherString = (String)anObject;
  int n = count;
  if (n == anotherString.count) {
   char v1[] = value;
   char v2[] = anotherString.value;
   int i = offset;
   int j = anotherString.offset;
   while (n-- != 0) {
     if (v1[i++] != v2[j++]) {
      return false;
     }
   }
   return true;
  }
 }
 return false;
}

As you can see an identity test is done right off the bat so if you make a call like this:

if (foo.equals("x")) {

}

And foo == "x", then your only additional overhead to a straight identity test is the
dynamic method invocation of String.equals().

Tyler


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 17 21:39:33 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:41:16 -0500"
References: <"Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 13:05:10 -0500"> <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net> <200001171840.NAA03642@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <f5bsnzwz8bz.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> >The fact that people on this list have
> >been confused about this does not mean the HTML WG is confused or is
> >responsible for sorting out their confusion.  See my message to Dave
> >about this [1] for a succinct statement of why this is a time-wasting
> >red herring which IS perfectly clearly specified in the Namespace REC.
> 
> Given the enormous amount of time wasted on this 'red herring', I'd suggest
> that this issue get some kind of _official_ clean-up, perhaps in its
> currently brief errata. [2]  It would be nice for there to be less
> developer confusion on this issue.

You're right, of course.  Sorry for the asperity of my response, I've
been struggling with various recalcitrant bits of software and prose
all day.

There's an agenda item about this for the upcoming XML Plenary
meeting, I'll try to get some concrete _public_ statement about this
out of it.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 17 21:52:13 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEMLELAA.martind@netfolder.com>
	 <4.1.20000117123228.04c93f00@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000117133240.04d64800@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <38838E20.2DFD@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> It doesn't. Become an invited expert. But you'll have to play by the rules,
> and since you've repeatedly said you won't.......not much anyone can do to
> help that.

Sure.  Play only by the rules that work to one's advantage.  This is the 
trend set by HTML and its developers when the web started.  Work to the 
advantage of the application and field it.  Choose very carefully the 
tech your app will interoperate with and ignore the rest.  If you need a 
copyrighted tech or the IP of a consortia or standards group, reverse 
engineer it, change the names, then put it out as a standard or open 
specification.  If that is an open group not interested in proprietary 
tech, go the SML route.  No problem.

They can help themselves anytime they choose. Some will.  There won't 
be a thing anyone can do about that.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 17 21:52:08 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <38838C8D.67DA@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >The future is outside the web browser.
> 
> Nope.  

Yep.

> The only category of application that has any hope of existence
> outside of a browser are authoring apps, whether for docs or graphics.
> 99% of all real-world business apps amount to database retrieval and
> update.  Why would you ever run one of those through anything but a
> browser?  

Because they don't all run out of databases.  Many apps (entertainment 
particularly) will thrive in a non-web browser environment and have.  
RealMedia does very well, and while there is a database, it doesn't 
dominate that application.  Getting rid of XHTML and other unnecessary 
objects makes for a very lean and easy to develop/extend framework.

The day of the web browser as portable operating system is drawing to a 
close.

len



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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 21:55:05 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751F9@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38838F36.18AA1A5@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> David Brownell wrote,
> > Miles Sabin wrote,
> > > Except that String.intern() isn't the _only_ way of
> > > making foo.equals(bar) iff foo == bar (in particular
> > > contexts, as opposed to across the whole JVM).
> >
> > It's the only way to ensure it's so if foo is a string
> > literal, as is rather common usage.
>
> I don't follow. You're surely not suggesting that
>
>   foo == "literal".intern()
>
> is faster than,
>
>   foo.equals("literal")
>
> are you?

In the Java Language Specification all JVM's must intern String literals and String
constants. These object reference of the String literal points to an interned String at
all times so:

if (foo == "literal") {

}

only makes the call to String.intern() (if the JVM chooses to even do that as it might
have a faster way of doing it during class loading), once and not every time you invoke
the method.

Also String constants are interned so you can write code like this:

public static final String CONSTANT = "foo";

Instead of:

public static final String CONSTANT = "foo".intern();

I hope this helps...

Tyler


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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 17 22:07:47 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "17 Jan 2000 14:15:50 -0500"
References: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net> <f5bwvp8zhnq.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <m3ya9otspl.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <f5bogakz70w.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> writes:

> ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) writes:
> 
> [on prefixed and unprefixed attributes]
> 
> > Why should they state it explicitly, when the Namespace REC explicitly
> > says that is NOT the case?  The fact that people on this list have
> > been confused about this does not mean the HTML WG is confused or is
> > responsible for sorting out their confusion.  See my message to Dave
> > about this [1] for a succinct statement of why this is a time-wasting
> > red herring which IS perfectly clearly specified in the Namespace
> > REC.
> 
> The language in the Namespaces REC means that the two *can* be
> distinguished, not that they must be, and every Namespaces-based spec
> should include a explicit statement of its usage.  Based on the
> examples in the spec, RDF, for example, doesn't distinguish
> 
>   <rdf:Description about="http://www.foo.com/">
> 
> from
> 
>   <rdf:Description rdf:about="http://www.foo.com/">

I guess my problem here is that asking XHTML to say they _don't_ do
this falls into the category of what the technical writer who taught
me technical writing called the Spurious Negative.  In general, he
said, avoid statements like "Relay 12 does not energise at this point."

RDF arguably made a mistake.  Not a standards error, just a tactical
mistake.  I don't think that means that every XML aplication from here 
to eternity needs to say "Oh, by the way, we didn't make the confusing 
mistake that RDF did."

It is perfectly true that _applications_ can do anything they bl***y
like, including treating the attributes 'html:head' and 'head' as if
they were the same, just as they can treat 'tete' and 'head' as if
they were the same, or 'HEAD' and 'head' or 'foo' and 'baz'.  XML lets 
them do any of those things.  And when they do any of them, they
should document that fact.  But documenting when they _don't_ do any
of those things is crazy.

But _XML itself_ (nor the Namespace REC) does not distinguish these
cases, or make one pair of names easier for applications to identify
than the others.  And the Namespace REC _does_ make clear that a
conforming _processor_ (not application) _must_ distinguish them, when 
it says that

   <!-- http://www.w3.org is bound to n1 and is the default -->
  <x xmlns:n1="http://www.w3.org" 
     xmlns="http://www.w3.org" >
    <good a="1"     b="2" />
    <good a="1"     n1:a="2" />
  </x>

is valid.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 22:14:15 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FD@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388393BA.40696852@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> David Brownell wrote,
> > Literals are already interned.  It's in the language
> > spec. Look at the javadoc for java.lang.String.intern ()
>
> Good point ... and one which I'd <blush>unaccountably
> overlooked</blush>.
>
> I don't think this materially affects my argument tho',
> because the only time where the performance difference
> between,
>
>   foo == "literal"
>
> and,
>
>   foo.equals("literal")
>
> is going to be significant is where there are long chains
> of comparisons, ie.,
>
>   if(foo == "elem1")
>     // do stuff for elem1
>   else if(foo == "elem2")
>     // do stuff for elem2
>
>   // ... repeat many times ...
>
>   else if (foo == "elemn")
>     // do stuff for elemn
>
> where it'd be a far better idea (both from performance and
> software design POVs) to do something like,
>
>   ElementHandler handler =
>     (ElementHandler)someTable.lookup(foo);
>
>   handler.doStuffForElement();

In general you are right except that calculating a hashcode and then doing one or two
equality tests in the hash table lookup method actually take more time than doing 20 or so
identity tests. Really I guess it depends on your architecture. Also, in some of the XML
related software I have written, I have used a specialized interned String map for optimal
performance when I need to write code similiar to what you have suggested. For example, in
an XML Parser I used it to map element names to element type objects when going through
the validation process as for each element name you need to look up the properties of that
element in the appropriate element type object (which may be part of a greater DTD object)
to do the necessary validation. Using java.util.HashMap just happened to be wayyyyyyy
toooooo slow for my needs at the time.

Tyler


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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 22:23:50 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> Tim Bray wrote,
> > Miles Sabin wrote:
> > > Anyhow, maybe the waters are getting a bit muddied. I'm
> > > assuming that all parsers will do interning of one sort or
> > > another internally. The issue for me is how much of that
> > > gets exposed via the SAX API. I don't want java-interning
> > > exposed, because that means my parser has no option but to
> > > use String.intern().
> >
> > Yes.   Given that *every* credible parser does this,
>
> No argument here (assuming that my 'all parsers' => your 'every
> credible parser').
>
> > ... it's a major convenience for programmers using the
> > API to be able to compare strings with ==, there is at some
> > level an argument that we ought to expose this fact.
> >
> > I'd go further; based on having written a parser, it seems to
> > me that the only sane tactic is for the parser to use
> > java.intern(), but only once for each unique name, with some
> > sort of internal char[] or equivalent table.  If this is
> > true, it's an even stronger argument for just saying "element > types and
> attribute names coming out of the parser are intern
> > ()ed, period".
>
> OK, this is David M's position.
>
> Sure, there's a case for this. But there's a case against too.
> There are at least two scenarios in which this would be a
> burden.
>
> One is where SAX isn't sitting on top of a parser (this is
> Arkin's worry). Instead it's generating SAX events from a DOM
> tree, java reflection, or some other data structure, a JDBC
> query perhaps.
>
> Unlike a parser, these event sources deliver Strings directly,
> so if there were no requirement to String.intern() they could
> simply pass Strings straight through the ContentHandler API. A
> requirement that SAX return String.intern()'d Strings rules
> that out tho', because none of DOM, reflection, or JDBC make
> any guarantees that the Strings they return are interned. The
> cost of interning (whether via a direct call on String.intern()
> or via a David M style lookup against a table of interned
> Strings) would be a significant additional overhead.
>
> You could argue that these aren't legitimate or central uses
> of the SAX API. But if you want to do that you should make it
> explicit, because it's likely to be quite a controversial
> line.

In a DOM package I wrote I faced exactly this problem if a user programmatically generated
a DOM document tree. If they generated a DOM document tree from a file, then all names
would be interned anyways as the parser would present the DOM document with only interned
names.

The way to get around this problem is somewhat complex but it is doable. What you need to
do is have a String table internal to the document. Whenever someone invokes:

Document.createElement(String name);

You just replace the argument String with an interned string. The other alternative,
though a little more expensive in some cases (such as multi-threaded situations) would be
to just call String.intern() every time the user invokes:

Document.createElement(String name);

I have not seen much of the popular DOM packages these days, but I am sure they have found
a similiar workaround as well.

> There seem to be two main points to your argument for String.
> intern()ing.
>
> 1. Reducing the amount of String object creation in parsers.
>
>    I don't think _anybody_ thinks that this isn't important.
>    the only issue is how best to do it. String.intern() is
>    one way. An internal parser data structure is another.

Most parsers do both. You don't need to Java intern your strings to reduce String object
allocation. But Java interning the Strings has nothing to do with decreasing object
allocation anyways.

Tyler


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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 22:43:45 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675210@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38839A5E.2296C465@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> David Megginson wrote,
> > For comparison, I just whipped up a Java class to compare two
> > (non-equal) Strings 10,000,000 times.  Here are the USER
> > timings:
> >
> > No comparisons (startup overhead): 0.67 seconds
> > Compare with ==:                   0.94 seconds (=0.2 seconds)
> > Compare with equals():             8.00 seconds (=7.33 seconds)
> >
> > That's a very significant performance difference.
>
> It's also a completely meaningless one unless we can see the
> code and know something about the platform you're running on.
> I'd be quite surprised if there was that much margin with a
> Sun 1.2 JDK and Hotspot on Solaris or Win32.

You will get similiar results on every platform you test it on unless the JVM authors
figure out a way to make testing for object identity more expensive than dynamic method
invocation. Doing that would take some real talent (-:

Regards,

Tyler


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From tyler at infinet.com  Mon Jan 17 23:02:27 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <38839FA6.1A318B15@exoffice.com>
Message-ID: <38839EF7.84562037@infinet.com>

Assaf Arkin wrote:

> Tyler,
>
> I am aware of how to perform interning. I wrote OpenXML which performs
> interning for SAX and DOM, and I'm a contributing member of XML Apache,
> so I'm also familiar with their mechanism.
>
> Yet, aside from parsers and DOMs I use SAX in a variety of applications
> that do not perform String interning, nor is there any benefit for them
> to do so. I'm afriad that mandating interning will simply break these
> (and many other) applications.

It won't break SAX 1.0 because it is not a mandated feature. For SAX 2.0 implementations, these
applications will need to support the SAX 2.0 API anyways. Having interned String support
regardless of the application is mostly trivial, but the benefits at the application level can
be immense if performance is at all a consideration in your applications. Really it depends on
the size of your document. For web browsers, interning or not interning is no big deal because
the documents are not that large anyways. I/O is pretty much always your bottleneck and not the
parser, even if the parser is very inefficient.

> Also, both OpenXML and Xerces use their internal interning mechanism
> which is substantially faster than String.intern, especially for dealing
> with DOM and parsing, however, the following will never work in either
> OpenXML or Xerces:
>
> if ( tagName == "foo" )
>
> for the simple reason that their interning mechanism and String.inter do
> not share the same table.
>
> arkin

The entire point of using String.intern() is to make the application which uses the parser
framework faster and not in a way which makes you have to write code like this:

public static final String CONSTANT = GlobalStringInternTable.intern("foo");

As a developer I prefer to use the least number of proprietary hooks as I possibly can. Using
some GlobalStringInternTable I think would only make sense for namespace support if you had a
parser framework that presented the application with a Name object instead of three strings
consisting of the prefix, namespace, and local part.

I guess it is just an argument mostly about what you want the application developer to deal
with. For me I prefer the way that gives me maximum performance without any obtuse coding to
some proprietary string table interface.

Regards,

Tyler


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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Mon Jan 17 23:17:33 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <001301bf6141$88780a00$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

> > I'd go further; based on having written a parser, it seems to
> > > me that the only sane tactic is for the parser to use
> > > java.intern(), but only once for each unique name, with some
> > > sort of internal char[] or equivalent table.  If this is
> > > true, it's an even stronger argument for just saying "element > types and
> > attribute names coming out of the parser are intern
> > > ()ed, period".

I suspect the java intern doesn't use weak references. And if
it doesn't, this is a great way to kill server-side XML processing!

Bill


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 17 23:45:21 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
References: <200001172021.PAA01847@locke.ccil.org>
Message-ID: <3883A983.9547DCE@pacbell.net>

John Cowan wrote:
> 
> Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
> 
> >       - tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing
> 
> The XML Rec does not forbid a parser to treat validation errors as fatal.

But -- a missing DTD isn't a validation error.  No validity
constraint says "there must be a DTD".

The validation errors start coming in when the content uses
names that aren't declared ... first one will be the root element.

It's not that subtle a point; the syntax is optional, but if you
don't use it you will certainly run into validity errors.

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 18 00:00:06 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000117111603.01524b40@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3883ACF8.8F90A9A1@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> And in my experience, it *takes* that 20% just to stay on top of the
> issues so that when you say something, it's well-informed and useful.

Sometimes quite a bit more, in fact.  Unless you like work weeks
of over 80 hours ... ;-)

- Dave

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From tyler at infinet.com  Tue Jan 18 00:08:02 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <001301bf6141$88780a00$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>
Message-ID: <3883AE4E.EB23563B@infinet.com>

Bill la Forge wrote:

> > > I'd go further; based on having written a parser, it seems to
> > > > me that the only sane tactic is for the parser to use
> > > > java.intern(), but only once for each unique name, with some
> > > > sort of internal char[] or equivalent table.  If this is
> > > > true, it's an even stronger argument for just saying "element > types and
> > > attribute names coming out of the parser are intern
> > > > ()ed, period".
>
> I suspect the java intern doesn't use weak references. And if
> it doesn't, this is a great way to kill server-side XML processing!
>
> Bill

>From what I have been told, As of JDK 1.2, all od SUN's implementations of their JVM's now
use weak references for the String intern table. Of course, any JVM implementor is free
not to use weak references or a simliar construct, but then again that would be kinda dumb
wouldn't it (-:

Tyler


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 18 00:06:19 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Costs of the W3C
References: <4.1.20000117144233.04d9eee0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <3883AE76.874BE528@pacbell.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> Casual comments and input can be had in interest groups and fora like
> www-<listname> for those that don't have the time.

Not generally.  That'd imply they had access to current WG
status, which isn't the rule for IG particpants who aren't
in member organizations, or for those public lists.

And anyway ... the issue is _serious_ comments, not casual
ones.  The W3C is currently set up so it's excessively hard
for people not within W3C to make such comments and get them
acted upon, even if they were to volunteer the time to make
them happen _and_ the WG agreed it needed doing.

- Dave

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From tyler at infinet.com  Tue Jan 18 00:19:20 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <38839FA6.1A318B15@exoffice.com> <38839EF7.84562037@infinet.com> <3883A533.845EC63@exoffice.com>
Message-ID: <3883B108.302C3FC0@infinet.com>

Assaf Arkin wrote:

> Let me repeat what I said.
>
> 1. SAX 2.0 adds interfaces, but most of the stuff will still happen
> through the SAX 1.0 interfaces. Expect applications to support SAX 2.0
> by simply supporting SAX 1.0.
>
> 2. Parsers use interning which is optimized but does not match
> String.intern. Forcing them to use String.intern will slow them down.

As David has pointed out, the change is one line of code from:

public String getInternedString(char[] characters, int offset, int length) {
  String foo = stringtable.lookup(characters, offset, length);
  if (foo == null) {
    String foo = new String(characters, offset, length);
    stringtable.cache(foo);
  }
}

to:

public String getInternedString(char[] characters, int offset, int length) {
  String foo = stringtable.lookup(characters, offset, length);
  if (foo == null) {
    String foo = new String(characters, offset, length).intern();
    stringtable.cache(foo);
  }
}

This call to intern occurs once per name per document. A small price to pay I think.

> 3. String.intern is more efficient for some documents, it is less
> efficient for others, and it can kill your JVM once the interning table
> grows too large if your application is a server that is expected to work
> continueously.

I disagree. The Java String intern table as of JDK 1.2 uses weak references to the actual references
of the interned String objects. As long as the load factor remains constant, a hash table does not
lose performance as it grows.

> To conclude, the performance gain is true for some applications, it is
> imaginative at best for others. Those applications that can benefit from
> interning should find a way to use it. Those applications that will be
> hurt by interning, should not start breaking tommorrow.

If interning is not done at the right place and the right time, then there is no point in using it as
it would be an obvious performance problem that does exactly the opposite of its original intention.
If you do things properly, then you get good performance results. I don't think any application could
possibly be hurt by interning. I do see many applications being benefited from interning.

> Performance is paramout to what I do, I develop specifically sever-side
> software that performs the same repeated operations over and over on
> behalf of multiple clients. And yet I advise against it, and will
> certainly not use any code that poses the risk of overbloating with
> interning table.

I am in the same boat with regards to performance, but I think you might be a little confused with
how things are actually implemented and how they actually work with regards to String.intern(). Also,
remember that the String intern table is just a table of 4 byte object references and not a table of
actual String objects. If weak references are used for the String intern table (which they are on
most JVM's now), then you will never have any memory problems.

Tyler


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From murata.makoto at fujixerox.co.jp  Tue Jan 18 02:43:57 2000
From: murata.makoto at fujixerox.co.jp (MURATA Makoto)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Fwd: Announcement of draft-murata-xml-02.txt
Message-ID: <200001180244.AA03966@archlute.fujixerox.co.jp>

A new I-D for XML media types is available.  Two new media types for 
external parsed entities are proposed in this I-D.

Discussion about this I-D will take place in the IETF-XML-MIME mailing 
list [1].  Everybody can join this mailing list, but is strongly recommended 
to read the archive before joining discussion.   Comments sent to the 
editors directly may be forwarded to the IETF-XML-MIME ML.

[1] http://www.imc.org/ietf-xml-mime

Cheers,

MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
 
Tel: +81-44-812-7230   Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata.makoto@fujixerox.co.jp

MURATA Makoto wrote:
> Simon St. Laurent and I co-authored a new I-D for XML media types.  It 
> is available at:
> 
> 	http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-murata-xml-02.txt
> 
> An HTML version is available at:
> 
> 	http://www.simonstl.com/idxmlmime/draft-murata-xml-02.htm
> 
> Changes from the previous I-D are as below:
> 
>    draft-murata-02: Replaced "(e.g., ESMTP, 8BITMIME, or NNTP)" with
>    "(e.g., 8BITMIME ESMTP or NNTP)"; transcoding without revising
>    encoding declarations is mentioned; the choice of "US-ascii" as the
>    default is explained.  text/xml-external-parsed-entity and
>    application/xml-external-parsed-entity are added.  Examples of these
>    two media types are added (7.10 and 7.11).  References are updated.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> MURATA Makoto (FAMILY Given)
> Fuji Xerox Information Systems
>  
> Tel: +81-44-812-7230   Fax: +81-44-812-7231
> E-mail: murata.makoto@fujixerox.co.jp
> 

Makoto
 
Fuji Xerox Information Systems
 
Tel: +81-44-812-7230   Fax: +81-44-812-7231
E-mail: murata.makoto@fujixerox.co.jp

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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Tue Jan 18 03:47:53 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: SaxStreamValidator?  (Was: String interning)
In-Reply-To: <m3ln5rf5ry.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172244120.16338-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

I'm concerned that String interning adds one more place for
an SAX event emitter to go wrong.  However, the benifits seem
like they outweigh the costs.  Thus, I'm ok with it.

  However, perhaps we need a SaxGround as well...

This would allow me to "quickly" check to see if 
the producer is following the specification; for 
instance, in addition to verifying that all strings
are interned, it could also check begin/end pair 
matching  and other constraints on the event 
stream that could be sparking wires.  I think
this would be a handy debugging tool.

Best,

Clark


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From digitome at iol.ie  Tue Jan 18 04:00:22 2000
From: digitome at iol.ie (Sean McGrath)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38838C8D.67DA@hiwaay.net>
References: <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000118034110.0099fa80@gpo.iol.ie>

[Len Bullard]
>
>The day of the web browser as portable operating system is drawing to a 
>close.
>
Amen. I see an increasing number of innovative Web apps in which
the browser is the "viewer" as distinct from the app that is
doing the real work.

I think it is interesting to ponder why this is so.
My (controversial of course) view on this
is that the Web client-side programming model of an
embedded, sand-boxed, buggy,
antithesis-of-a-text-processing-language has finally
run its course.

regards,

Sean,




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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Tue Jan 18 04:20:35 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Character Tugging  (Was:Re: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172303180.22622-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Mon, 10 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:
>   public interface ContentHandler
>   {
>     public void characters (char ch[], int start, int length)
>       throws SAXException;
> 
>     public void ignorableWhitespace (char ch[], int start, int length)
>       throws SAXException;
>   
>   }


Context:
   
  1. You have a multi-stage process, where SAX is the
     interface between each stage.
  
  2. Much of your XML document includes Date, Currency,
     and other similar object types; which can take 
     significant parsing time and can always be retrieved
     by Object.toString()

Problems:

 1. In between each stage of my process I have to serialize
    non-mutable application specific objects (Date, Currency, 
    TimeInterval) to a character stream and then re-constitute 
    the characters into the same application.  This seems like
    a waste of memory and processing time.

 2. Lets say that my character content is bigger than the 
    fixed buffer that the parser is using.  This means that
    multiple calls to characters() will be generated for
    the content, correct?   The general case, then, forces
    the use of a StringBuffer on the receiving end if
    the goal is to build the content into a single String.
    Am I correct here?  I'm not sure.

 3. Much of my XML information is sparse, thus a great deal
    of the characters() calls will be wasted.  Question:
    is memory allocated for the char[] passed?  If so, then
    this is unnecessary allocation?

Suggested Solution:

   public interface CharTug {
       boolean isCharacters();
       boolean isWhitespace();
       Reader  getReader();
       Object  getObject();
   }

   public interface ContentHandler {
       public characters(CharTug content);
   }


Problems Revisited:

  1.  Each stage can pass a CharTug, so that
      the Object can be pulled without conversion.

      If the Handler wants a Reader, then
      new StringReader(myObject.toString())
      can be returned.  A helper can automate this.
  
  2.  Two items to note.  

      First, if the content is really huge, then 
      a full blown Reader is ideal.

      Second, if the Handler wants a string, then
      getObject.toString(); will do the trick nicely.
      No need to construct a StringBuffer.

  3.  If the content is not needed, then the 
      CharTug will be ignored, and the execution
      will return to the emitter, which can
      then *skip* the content that could have
      been pulled.


Just trying to solve my pracical problems...


Clark


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 18 04:32:00 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20000118034110.0099fa80@gpo.iol.ie>
References: <38838C8D.67DA@hiwaay.net>
 <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200001180431.XAA01792@hesketh.net>

At 03:41 AM 1/18/00 +0000, Sean McGrath wrote:
>[Len Bullard]
>>The day of the web browser as portable operating system is drawing to a 
>>close.
>>
>Amen. I see an increasing number of innovative Web apps in which
>the browser is the "viewer" as distinct from the app that is
>doing the real work.
>
>I think it is interesting to ponder why this is so.
>My (controversial of course) view on this
>is that the Web client-side programming model of an
>embedded, sand-boxed, buggy,
>antithesis-of-a-text-processing-language has finally
>run its course.

I'm not sure I see the disappearance of the browser from my perspective,
but given this fuller description I'd be happy to say that those kinds of
browsers may finally be running their course.

XML opens the way for a super-slim 'browser' that's pretty much a network
interface with an XML parser on it, passing results as requested to a wide
variety of application possibilities.  Those applications might look like
'browsers' or they might not.  I've been thinking of this as the expansion
of the browser (treated as network interface) into the other facets of
software, but it could also be treated as the demolition/reduction of the
browser.

Either way, I'm looking forward to lots of XML-based apps running over
TCP/IP and possibly even HTTP.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From rmk5123 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu  Tue Jan 18 05:32:17 2000
From: rmk5123 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu (ross)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: xmlonthemac.com
Message-ID: <B4A96501.BFAC%rmk5123@rit.edu>

Hello,

I am in the process of compiling information for the launch of
http://www.xmlonthemac.com . I would really appreciate any pointers to
particular products, projects, and articles on XML specific to (Mac Only) or
inclusive of (cross platform or Java) the Macintosh.

You can look at the site-so-far at http://www.metamovie.com

Thank you,

-Ross
-- 
Ross Karchner
rmk5123@rit.edu    
http://www.rit.edu/~rmk5123
editor@metamovie.com
http://www.metamovie.com



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From nicmila at vscht.cz  Tue Jan 18 05:46:20 2000
From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Zvon tutorial: Mozilla 
Message-ID: <3883FDE3.15891505@vscht.cz>

The Mozilla browser is claimed to be fully configurable with XML and CSS
so I had tested it over weekend. The result of this testing is a
beginning of a new Zvon tutorial:
http://zvon.vscht.cz/HTMLonly/MozillaTutorial/General/book.html

Tutorial is viewable with any browser, the demos of course only with
Mozilla (I am at this moment using M12 - http://www.mozilla.org )

I must admit that I am really impressed by work the Mozilla people did. 

-- 
***************************************************************
Dr. Miloslav Nic                        e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz
Department of Organic Chemistry         TEL: +420 2 2435 5012  
ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha)                     +420 2 2435 4118
    				        FAX: +420 2 2435 4288  
****************************************************************
Support free information exchange: http://zvon.vscht.cz
****************************************************************

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From nicmila at vscht.cz  Tue Jan 18 06:01:53 2000
From: nicmila at vscht.cz (Miloslav Nic)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Zvon DTD and XML tutorials available for downloads
Message-ID: <38840190.45E43056@vscht.cz>

Some people were asking why DTD and XML tutorials were not available for
downloads.

The reason was very simple. The original backup script was so messy that
it was difficult to add a resource and not make a mistake.

Yesterday I rewrote it so now everything is available at:

http://zvon.vscht.cz/ZvonHTML/Downloads/listOfPrograms_en.html

As a benefit file sizes are now given.
-- 
***************************************************************
Dr. Miloslav Nic                        e-mail: nicmila@vscht.cz
Department of Organic Chemistry         TEL: +420 2 2435 5012  
ICT Prague (VSCHT Praha)                     +420 2 2435 4118
    				        FAX: +420 2 2435 4288  
****************************************************************
Support free information exchange: http://zvon.vscht.cz
****************************************************************

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From tyler at infinet.com  Tue Jan 18 06:32:34 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
		 <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <38839FA6.1A318B15@exoffice.com>
		 <38839EF7.84562037@infinet.com> <3883A533.845EC63@exoffice.com> <3883B108.302C3FC0@infinet.com> <3883D077.9261D375@exoffice.com>
Message-ID: <3884087F.BCFA6BF1@infinet.com>

Assaf Arkin wrote:

> > This call to intern occurs once per name per document. A small price to pay I think.
>
> Try it in other environments then what you're using right now. Tell me
> if it works as advertised.

I really don't know what else to say other than you can look at the implementation of String.intern() and
the implementations I and others have offered and see that the cost of using String.intern() is a function
of how it is used and not what particular environment it is being used in. I really don't know what else to
say because I don't see the point in trying to prove common engineering sense here.

> > I disagree. The Java String intern table as of JDK 1.2 uses weak references to the actual references
> > of the interned String objects. As long as the load factor remains constant, a hash table does not
> > lose performance as it grows.
>
> You'll be surprised how many people are using JDK 1.1 and non-Sun JVMs.
> You'll be surprised at how many simple Java features break under
> pressure.

Well those people who use JDK 1.1 right now are generally not using it for new software which SAX2 will be
supporting. Even then, JDK 1.1.7 in the SUN VM (and possibly other VM's) use their own internal version of
weak references as well. Under JDK 1.1.7 the software I have written that uses String.intern() has never
had any memory problems.

> > If interning is not done at the right place and the right time, then there is no point in using it as
> > it would be an obvious performance problem that does exactly the opposite of its original intention.
> > If you do things properly, then you get good performance results. I don't think any application could
> > possibly be hurt by interning. I do see many applications being benefited from interning.
>
> The question is, do you do them (as a parser would) or do you force
> other people to do them? Does it work for them as well as it works for
> you?

When you support a spec or interface you are "forced" to support those interfaces. The question is whether
"forcing" developers who will be providing SAX emitter support to use interned strings for element and
attribute names will be considerably more effort than the benefits brought to developers who use the SAX
interface for interpreting XML documents. IMHO, the benefits of requiring names in XML to be presented to
the application as interned strings is far greater than the trivial changes emitter applications will need
to make to support interned strings.

> How often have you been upset by a Windows feature that works better for
> Microsoft products, or a Java feature that efficiently solves problems
> for Sun products, but not good enough for your code?

VM issues may be a major issue when it comes to graphics performance or doing floating point calculations,
but in this particular case, it is like trying to argue whether or not hashtables work better on one
platform or another.

> > I am in the same boat with regards to performance, but I think you might be a little confused with
> > how things are actually implemented and how they actually work with regards to String.intern(). Also,
> > remember that the String intern table is just a table of 4 byte object references and not a table of
> > actual String objects. If weak references are used for the String intern table (which they are on
> > most JVM's now), then you will never have any memory problems.
>
> I'm afraid to tell you but weak references suck performance wise. I've
> been successful at avoiding them. I've reimplemented Hashtable and
> ThreadLocal to get around the Sun implementation issues. I'm very
> performance savvy, and still String.intern does not cut it.

It depends on how you use WeakReferences. In my experience they have been a major boon to my development. I
think you may be confused with the WeakHashMap implementation and weak references in general. I don't know
of many people who use java.util.Hashtable much in performance sensitive code anyways, so again this
argument is irrelevant.

> Once again, I will repeat what I said before. All parsers use their own,
> way faster, interning mechanism. Adding another call to String.intern
> will slow them down.

It is a one time cost for each unique name in a document. Of course this may slow things down a fraction of
a millisecond during parsing, it provides potentially great performance benefits at the application level.
I am not sure why this even needs to be argued anymore as I have used interned Strings in my XML
applications for over two years and have never ever had any instance of String.intern() ever popping up in
my profiling.

I think at this point this discussion has come to a point of arguing for the sake of winning an argument
and not about the common sense reasons for SAX presenting names as Java interned strings. I really don't
see the rationale of the arguments against using interned strings as most of the claims supporting those
arguments just are not true or are just half-baked conjecture.

I guess David will need to either flip a coin or make a decision on his own as to what SAX2 will end up
doing. Either way, I don't think anyone will be in an uproar regardless of what is actually choses. I know
I won't.

Regards,

Tyler


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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 09:08:06 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA406@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  Not only - I'm talking about reps from paying members; it's 
:  well-known
:  that even if someone is doing a titanic amount of work 
:  editing a spec,
:  when they have an in-house product-release crunch, well, 
:  they're just not
:  going to be doing any editing for a while.  That is unless they're a 
:  "standards drone" a well-known species of engineer who isn't trusted
:  to do any real work but is dispatched to standards committees, found
:  in some but not all large technology vendors.

Are you saying that writing standards isn't real work?

Bill

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From cerium at ibm.net  Tue Jan 18 09:32:39 2000
From: cerium at ibm.net (John Hicks)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:18 2004
Subject: Does anyone know of such a tool [SQL results as XML]
In-Reply-To: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6629@chitmd03.nt.il.nb
 gfn.com>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000118035551.00a5a850@pop1.ibm.net>

At 09:44 AM 01/13/2000 -0600, prasadm@crt.com wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>We are currently in search of a tool on the web which accepts an SQL query
>as the input and gives us back an XML file containing all the results with
>the tags representing the column names of the table being queried.
>
>One such we found is Oracle's XSQL Servlet...
>
>Another such tool we found is IBM's XML Lightweight Extractor...

>If anyone knows of any tool, that takes a SQL query(select) as its
>input and returns an XML document, please share it with me.

Hi Prasad:

Look at our TagServlet.  Free for comment from 
http://ceriumworks.com.  Comes with TagServletPreview if you want to write 
to a file rather than Http Response.

TagServlet extends our XMLServlet, which pools JDBC connections (to any 
JDBC database), and uses your SQL calls much the way you've always written 
them.  Unlike XMLServlet, this first version of TagServlet only does SQL 
queries, not updates.

An excerpt from the ReadMe:

TagServlet is a trial version of XMLServlet
that writes database query results within XML
tags.

TagServlet comes with TagServletPreview.
TagServletPreview, like XMLServletPreview, runs
from a command line so you may test your
TagServlet input and output without a servlet
engine, and with or without a live database
connection.

See installation instructions in the ReadMe.txt
for XMLServlet.

You edit XML instructions for TagServlet as you
would for XMLServlet, by filling in two kinds
of tag.  Because XMLServlet matches the front-end
work of page designers with the back-end work of
database developers, we call the tags BACK and
FRONT:

   <MATCH>
     <BACK>signIn.sql</BACK>
     <FRONT>accountFound.xml</FRONT>
   </MATCH>

XMLServlet would merge query results from
"signIn.sql" into "accountFound.xml".

TagServlet instead writes all query results
tagged with their SQL column names, like so:

   <ROW>
<EMPNO>000130</EMPNO><BR>
<FIRSTNME>DOLORES  </FIRSTNME><BR>
<MIDINIT>M</MIDINIT><BR>
<LASTNAME>QUINTANA  </LASTNAME><BR>
<WORKDEPT>C01</WORKDEPT><BR>
<PHONENO>4578</PHONENO><BR>
<HIREDATE>July 28, 1981</HIREDATE><BR>
<JOB>ANALYST </JOB><BR>
<EDLEVEL>16</EDLEVEL><BR>
<SEX>F</SEX><BR>
<BIRTHDATE>September 15, 1955</BIRTHDATE><BR>
<SALARY>23800.00</SALARY><BR>
<BONUS>500.00</BONUS><BR>
<COMM>1904.00</COMM><BR>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<EMPNO>000140</EMPNO><BR>
<FIRSTNME>BARTHOLOMEW  </FIRSTNME><BR>
<MIDINIT>M</MIDINIT><BR>
<LASTNAME>CUBBINS  </LASTNAME><BR>
<WORKDEPT>C01</WORKDEPT><BR>
<PHONENO>2578</PHONENO><BR>
<HIREDATE>July 4, 1991</HIREDATE><BR>
<JOB>UML ARCHITECT </JOB><BR>
<EDLEVEL>10</EDLEVEL><BR>
<SEX>M</SEX><BR>
<BIRTHDATE>October 18, 1965</BIRTHDATE><BR>
<SALARY>17500.00</SALARY><BR>
<BONUS>0</BONUS><BR>
<COMM>0</COMM><BR>
   </ROW>

This raw format can then be passed to another
application (business-to-business), or given a
user-friendly format with XSL (via a browser
with XSL support, or at the server via servlet
chaining).

==================================================
A Complete Example
==================================================

This example includes:

   1) an SQL query
   2) parameters passed to the SQL query
   3) XML instructions for TagServlet
   4) an optional XML header included by TagServlet
   5) XML results written by TagServlet

1) The SQL query (file
"selectMidSizeDepartments.xml"):

   select d.deptname as department,
   count(e.empno) as employees
   from employee e, department d
   where e.workdept = d.deptno
   group by d.deptname
   having count(*) between zqx01 and zqx02

2) The browser parameters posted in (simulated in file
"browserParmsDepartmentCounts"):

   1
   10

TagServlet substitutes these parameters for cues
zqx01 and zqx02 in the SQL query, giving:

   ...having count(*) between 1 and 10

3) The XML instructions for this example (file
"tagMidSizeDepartments.xml"):

   <SPLICE>
     <STYLESHEET></STYLESHEET>
     <CONTENT-TYPE>text/xml</CONTENT-TYPE>
     <MATCH>
       <BACK>selectMidSizeDepartments.xml</BACK>
       <FRONT REPEATMIN="1"
         REPEATMAX="0">tagMidSizeDepartments.xml
       </FRONT>
     </MATCH>
   </SPLICE>

The <BACK> tag names the SQL query:

    selectMidSizeDepartments.xml

Maybe we should call that .sql rather than .xml?

The <FRONT> tag names file
"tagMidSizeDepartments.xml"...

4) ...which contains:

   <?xml version="1.0"?>

   <!DOCTYPE ROSE[
   <!ELEMENT ROSE (ROW*)>
   <!ELEMENT ROW  (DEPARTMENT,EMPLOYEES)>
   <!ELEMENT DEPARTMENT (#PCDATA)>
   <!ELEMENT EMPLOYEES (#PCDATA)>
   ]>

5) TagServlet returns these results from the SQL query:

   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>ADMINISTRATION SYSTEMS      </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>6</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>MANUFACTURING SYSTEMS       </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>9</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>OPERATIONS                  </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>5</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>PLANNING                    </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>1</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>SOFTWARE SUPPORT            </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>4</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>SPIFFY COMPUTER SERVICE DIV.</DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>3</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>
   <ROW>
<DEPARTMENT>SUPPORT SERVICES            </DEPARTMENT>
<EMPLOYEES>1</EMPLOYEES>
   </ROW>

Finally, TagServletPreview writes file
"exportMidSizeDepartments.xml" (or a name of your
choosing) where you may preview the results of
your TagServlet instructions.

TagServlet simply writes <FRONT> then <BACK>,
where XMLServlet would merge the two.

=======================================
What Do You Think?
=======================================

What would make this tool more useful to you?  Let
us know, please.

TagServlet extends our XMLServlet tool, not our
XSLServlet tool.  Would you welcome a TagServlet
that includes server-side XSL stylesheet
formatting, as offered by XSLServlet?


Look for the latest discussion, news, FAQs, and
updates at
   http://ceriumworks.com/jackBeans/updates.html

Cerium Component Software
XML Outline | XML DB | XML Servlet
FAX 707-222-7651
support@ceriumworks.com
http://ceriumworks.com
"Software as a conversation with a community."


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 18 09:38:25 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Microsoft's responce to XML.com article
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA406@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38843488.906562FE@pacbell.net>

Bill dehOra wrote:
> 
> :  Not only - I'm talking about reps from paying members; it's
> :  well-known that even if someone is doing a titanic amount of work
> :  editing a spec, when they have an in-house product-release crunch,
> :  well, they're just not
> :  going to be doing any editing for a while. 

Which is why a lot of engineers who prefer to work on products
choose to avoid standards work ... except to the extent that it
affects product delivery!


> :	 That is unless they're a
> :  "standards drone" a well-known species of engineer who isn't trusted
> :  to do any real work but is dispatched to standards committees, found
> :  in some but not all large technology vendors.
> 
> Are you saying that writing standards isn't real work?

I can't speak for Tim, but it's certainly true that there
are engineers who prefer the standards style work more than
product delivery and its set of hassles.  To be sure, some
of them are ex-engineers, no longer writing code but able
to apply the same analytical skills (and political ones too!)
to corporate strategy in that rather different context.

Re trust ... the best engineers are trusted, period, and
it's up to them to decide which style work they prefer!

- Dave

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From Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr  Tue Jan 18 10:05:34 2000
From: Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr (Sophie MABILAT)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <B1C8643B3AB0D21180250000C0B179CD05B70D@JUPITER>

Hi, 
I would like to create with the DOM an element with this name :
"CATEGORY_SALES_FOR_1997". But I always have an error message that tell me
that there is an invalid character. I must change it by removing the
numbers. I could open with the DOM a document whith such an element name,
but not create a node with this name. 
Why ? 
Sophie MABILAT 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 
Sophie MABILAT 
Sophie.Mabilat@apitech.fr 
APITECH 113, rue Marietton 69009 LYON FRANCE 
Tél. : 04 78 43 49 30 Fax : 04 78 83 47 86 
www.apitech.fr 
www.zipbee.com 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 10:24:47 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: String interning
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675217@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Toby Speight wrote,
> This also allows consumers to push a SAX interner (a filter) 
> onto the producer, so that all output from the filter is 
> interned. This needs to be done just once, at setup time, so 
> no other part of the consumer is affected.  And there's no 
> overhead added if the producer generates interned names.
>
> boolean namesAreInterned =
>  xmlReader.getFeature
>    ("http://xml.org/sax/features/interned-names");
>
> if (namesAreInterned)
     ^^^?
>   xmlReader = new SAXInterner(xmlReader);
>
> // The 'interned-names' feature will always be true at this 
> // point.
>
> // Now add the handlers...

This is the nicest solution yet ... if you're handlers depend
on String.intern() and the parser doesn't guarantee that, then
slip an intern'ing adapter around the parser.

But shouldn't the marked line read,

 if (!namesAreInterned)
   xmlReader = new SAXInterner(xmlReader);

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 10:44:01 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: String interning
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675218@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Tyler Barker wrote,
> You will get similiar results on every platform you test it on 
> unless the JVM authors figure out a way to make testing for 
> object identity more expensive than dynamic method
> invocation. Doing that would take some real talent (-:

I agree that == will always be faster than String.equals().
I don't agree that it will be _significantly_ so.

David reported a performance margin of 36:1 in favour of ==
for his benchmark on a Linux JDK 1.2. That's _way_ too large 
... Linux JVMs clearly have a way to go before they're ready for 
prime-time.

On WinNT with Sun's 1.3 beta and Hotspot server VM 2.0RC running 
David's benchmark I get a margin of 1.3:1 in favour of ==
(String.equals is presumably getting inlined so we're just
adding the cost of a couple of extra instructions and a
memory access or two to the inner loop). Even with the JIT 
disabled I only get a margin of 8:1 in favour of ==. As soon as 
I get a chance I'll test this on Solaris Sparc ... I'd expect 
similar results.

Bearing in mind that the cost of the code under the conditionals
is likely to completely drown out the small cost (with good JIT)
of String.equals relative to ==, I find it very difficult to see 
why the cost of String.intern'ing should be imposed on _all_
SAX implementers.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/




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From james.anderson at mecomnet.de  Tue Jan 18 12:04:39 2000
From: james.anderson at mecomnet.de (james anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: String interning /servers
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <001301bf6141$88780a00$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>
Message-ID: <3884520C.1E794179@mecomnet.de>


Perhaps this is yet another argument for a less primitive intern-basis
than that of String.intern().
a. One could well intern QNames rather than Strings, with the
concomitant ability to specify the strength of the reference. This
entails the "bothersome" static bindings, but i'm actually fond of them.
b. One could well structure the intern-map to reflect the namespace
partitions and flush qname-packages on an lru basis.

In all, the server life-span shouldn't stop one from interning.

Bill la Forge wrote:
> 
> ...
> 
> I suspect the java intern doesn't use weak references. And if
> it doesn't, this is a great way to kill server-side XML processing!


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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:13:15 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SaxStreamValidator?  (Was: String interning)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172244120.16338-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
References: <m3ln5rf5ry.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172244120.16338-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <14468.29915.246524.54938@localhost.localdomain>

Clark C. Evans writes:

 > I'm concerned that String interning adds one more place for
 > an SAX event emitter to go wrong.  However, the benifits seem
 > like they outweigh the costs.  Thus, I'm ok with it.
 > 
 >   However, perhaps we need a SaxGround as well...
 > 
 > This would allow me to "quickly" check to see if 
 > the producer is following the specification; for 
 > instance, in addition to verifying that all strings
 > are interned, it could also check begin/end pair 
 > matching  and other constraints on the event 
 > stream that could be sparking wires.  I think
 > this would be a handy debugging tool.

It sounds like a great tool -- thanks for volunteering.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:19:43 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2 and data types (was: Character Tugging)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172303180.22622-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain>
	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172303180.22622-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>
Message-ID: <14468.30311.413627.294386@localhost.localdomain>

Clark C. Evans writes:

 > Context:
 >    
 >   1. You have a multi-stage process, where SAX is the
 >      interface between each stage.
 >   
 >   2. Much of your XML document includes Date, Currency,
 >      and other similar object types; which can take 
 >      significant parsing time and can always be retrieved
 >      by Object.toString()

The SAX2 solution:

  interface MagicDataHandler
  {
    public void date (Date date) throws SAXException;
    public void currency (Currency currency) throws SAXException;
    public void integer (int integer) throws SAXException;
  }

then

  SAXReader r = new MagicDataReader();
  MagicDataHandler h = new MyMagicDataHandler();
  try {
    r.setProperty("http://www.foo.com/props/magic-data-handler", h);
  } catch (SAXException e) {
    System.err.println("Reader does not support a MagicDataHandler");
    System.exit(-1);
  }

Presumably, in place of characters() events, your client application
would receive date, currency, and integer events.  This would be an
especially nice application for SAX2 filters, once we have a stable
and generally-accepted data-typing mechanism (no, guys, notations may
be stable but they're not yet generally-accepted).

 > Just trying to solve my pracical problems...

Let me know if it looks like we've done this one right.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:27:13 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: DOM support
Message-ID: <14468.30757.308596.364157@localhost.localdomain>

We've talked in the past about supplying better DOM support in SAX2
through features and properties.  There are two options:

1. Pull

   Define a read-only 'dom-iterator' feature that tells whether the
   current reader is iterating over a DOM tree or not.  Define a
   read-only 'dom-node' property (valid only during parsing) that
   returns the current DOM node.

   The DOM iterator could either get the root DOM node through its
   constructor (as I imagined), through a magic URI argument to
   parse(), or as David B. suggested, by making the 'dom-node'
   property writable outside of the parse.

2. Push

   Define the 'dom-iterator' feature, and possibly also a 'dom-node'
   property for setting the initial node, but add a 'dom-handler'
   property for an extension handler to report the current DOM node:

   public interface DOMHandler
   {
     startNode (Node node) throws SAXException;
     endNode (Node node) throws SAXException;
   }

   This saves a lot of unnecessary hashtable lookups.


Which of the two do people prefer?


All the best,


David

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:35:05 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
Message-ID: <14468.31231.86013.244513@localhost.localdomain>

[questions at bottom]

There are two different ways that an event-based interface can work:
the event supplier can push events out to the consumer, or the
consumer can pull events from the supplier.

SAX is very much a push interface, but some people have asked if it
might be possible to add optional support for pull, so that you can do
something like

  Event e = xmlReader.nextEvent();

followed by a giant switch statement.

I don't want to do that, but here's a possible compromise:

1. Define an optional 'pull-events' feature.

2. Add a new method to XMLReader:

   public boolean nextEvent () 
     throws SAXException, IOException;

Here's how it would work: when the 'pull-events' feature is true, the
XMLReader parse() methods return immediately; after that, each
invocation of nextEvent() causes an event (or small cluster of events) 
to be sent to the registered handlers and then returns true.  Once
there are no remaining events (i.e. the document is completely
parsed), nextEvent() returns false.

If the XML driver doesn't support pull, or if it hasn't been activated 
with the 'pull-events' feature, then any call to nextEvent() could
either return null or throw a SAXNotSupportedException.


Questions
---------

1. Is this adequate for the people who want pull?  I really don't want 
   to define a separate object for each event type (especially when we 
   allow arbitrary extension handlers).

2. Is it OK that a single call to nextEvent() might generate two or
   three events in some cases?

3. Would any of the parser writers out there want to support this?

I will take silence as an indication of a lack of interest.


Thanks, and all the best,


David

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:44:56 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: "Simon St.Laurent"'s message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 23:32:12 -0500"
References: <38838C8D.67DA@hiwaay.net> <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca> <200001180431.XAA01792@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <m3puuz7833.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> writes:

> XML opens the way for a super-slim 'browser' that's pretty much a network
> interface with an XML parser on it, passing results as requested to a wide
> variety of application possibilities.

Actually, Mosaic was doing that back in 1994, wasn't it?  At least, I
remember spending a lot of time fiddling with MIME types to invoke
different Linux apps.

Actually, while this approach sounds good, it will give the sysadmins
and security directors at, say, Boeing or the DoD, horrific
nightmares.

It's already bad enough having to keep track of the (many) security
bugs in browsers, approved plugins (BAN 'EM ALL!), and mail-readers,
especially when *some* big vendors consider gaping security holes to
be essential user-friendly features.  Add 40 or 50 helper apps, and
you've multiplied the risk beyond the ability of most IS departments
to even pretend to cope.

There is a partial solution, though:

1. Develop an environment where all apps run in a sandbox with little
   or no default access to system resources.

2. Require apps to use a common binary format that can be examined and 
   interpreted step-by-step rather than running machine-instructions
   directly.

Oops!  Look like I just invented Java.  Any venture capitalists listening?


> Either way, I'm looking forward to lots of XML-based apps running over
> TCP/IP and possibly even HTTP.

Yep, me too.  I still think that the biggest client-side use for XML
is to send complex state information to a Java applet or to (yech)
ECMAscript running inside a browser.


All the best,


David

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 14:52:27 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: DOM support
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675222@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> We've talked in the past about supplying better DOM support in
> SAX2 through features and properties.  There are two options:
>
> 1. Pull

I don't think I like this much. Unless I've misunderstood
you're proposing that we hide a DOM-walking SAX event
generator behind a SAX property. I can't really see the
benefit of that. Why would you want to access such a thing
via this route rather than by simply creating one directly,
ie.,

  XMLReader reader = new DOMXMLReader(someDocument);

The earlier proposals I remember seemed more aimed at simply
allowing access to the current DOM node from a Document/Content
Handler. That seems reasonable, (tho' I'm having trouble 
thinking of any real applications).

> 2. Push
> [snip: DOMHandler]
> This saves a lot of unnecessary hashtable lookups.

Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
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Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 14:57:06 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: DOM support
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675222@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675222@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <14468.32553.397611.574255@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin writes:

 > > 2. Push
 > > [snip: DOMHandler]
 > > This saves a lot of unnecessary hashtable lookups.
 > 
 > Could you elaborate on that a bit?

Well, they could be equality tests as well.  Basically, every time you 
call getProperty, the XMLReader is going to have to interpret the
property name before deciding what to send back to you.


All the best,


David

-- 
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 15:07:20 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675223@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Meggison wrote,
> I don't want to do that, but here's a possible compromise:
> [snip: 'pull-events' feature]

I think you're right not to.

I think the advocates of pull would be better off defining
a completely separate API, better tuned to the very different
style of parsing and handling they need ... which isn't to
say that that API couldn't or shouldn't be part of the SAX 
empire.

Hmm ... is it just me, or are some of these feature and
property proposals turning out to be ways of cramming a whole
load of fairly loosely related functionality behind the SAX
API. I'm getting a bit of a kitchen-sinking feeling ;-)

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
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From vilya at nag.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 15:30:48 2000
From: vilya at nag.co.uk (Vilya Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
References: <14468.31231.86013.244513@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3884874F.C83DA801@nag.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote:
> SAX is very much a push interface, but some people have asked if it
> might be possible to add optional support for pull,
<snip>

I think this is a very useful idea. It makes it a lot easier to write
recursive descent parsers for XML grammars, rather than having to muck
about with state tables and the like.

It is not clear whether this should to be part of SAX though. As you
mention, the SAX interface has a very definite viewpoint of parsing which
seems almost diametrically opposed in many ways to a "pull" interface.
Perhaps it would be more appropriate to define a completely separate API
for this?

<snip>
> 1. Is this adequate for the people who want pull?  I really don't want
>    to define a separate object for each event type (especially when we
>    allow arbitrary extension handlers).

In general I prefer to think of a pull API in terms of tokens rather than
events. I would like to have a base interface ("Token") which is extended
by interfaces for elements, processing instructions, etc. and a method in
the parser interface which returns the next token from the input (or null
if the input has been exhausted), whatever it may be. Which I believe is
almost exactly what you said you didn't want. :-)

Another alternative is simply to have the parser store all of the
information about the current token and provide access to it via methods.
The nextToken() method would just need to return a constant indicating the
type of token which was read. This could be implemented more efficiently,
but would obviously be less extensible.

Just thinking out loud really,
Vil.
-- 
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Computational Mathematics Group   Jordan Hill Road   Wk: +44 1865 511 245
NAG Limited                    Oxford  UK  OX2 8DR  Fax: +44 1865 311 205

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jan 18 15:42:39 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0270@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Simon St.Laurent [mailto:simonstl@simonstl.com]
Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 11:32 PM
> 
> XML opens the way for a super-slim 'browser' that's pretty 
> much a network
> interface with an XML parser on it, passing results as 
> requested to a wide
> variety of application possibilities.  Those applications 
> might look like
> 'browsers' or they might not.  I've been thinking of this as 
> the expansion
> of the browser (treated as network interface) into the other facets of
> software, but it could also be treated as the 
> demolition/reduction of the
> browser.
> 
> Either way, I'm looking forward to lots of XML-based apps running over
> TCP/IP and possibly even HTTP.

As am I.  And it's exactly the combination of XML and HTTP which, to me,
makes the browser unnecessary in many situations.  If I can just put some
kind of application on the client, whether it be written in Java, or Visual
Basic, or C++, and have that application communicate with my servers via XML
and HTTP, I get all of the benefits of using the Internet (or an Intranet or
an Extranet, or any of the other names I can't keep up with), PLUS, I get
all of the advantages of splitting my processing intelligently between
server and client.

In many cases this won't be possible.  (It's probably most feasible for
companies which are rolling applications out to their employees.)  Any of
the large dot coms which want to reach as large an audience as possible
aren't going to force people to download these apps, for example.  But in
other cases, it is a beautiful concept, such as the aforementioned
RealNetworks example, or even something like ICQ.  I assume neither of these
use XML to communicate data, but there will be other similar apps coming
down the pipe.

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 15:57:40 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Hunter wrote,
> As am I.  And it's exactly the combination of XML and HTTP 
> which, to me, makes the browser unnecessary in many 
> situations.  If I can just put some kind of application on the 
> client, whether it be written in Java, or Visual Basic, or 
> C++, and have that application communicate with my servers via 
> XML and HTTP, I get all of the benefits of using the Internet 
> (or an Intranet or an Extranet, or any of the other names I 
> can't keep up with), PLUS, I get all of the advantages of 
> splitting my processing intelligently between server and 
> client.

I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
How is application specific markup better than an application
specific binary wire protocol?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
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From jlam at iunknown.com  Tue Jan 18 16:14:28 2000
From: jlam at iunknown.com (John Lam)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <4237BC86CEB8D31195FF0050040FEA950914@CLEMENS>

The way I see it is this:

1. No proprietary runtimes (e.g. $$$ or platform lock-in). 
2. No complex runtimes (e.g. ubiquity of XML and HTTP 'stacks') and their
ubiquity (e.g. ready availability of open source implementations) results in
relative ease of porting of these runtimes to new environments as they
appear.
3. Ease of understanding of the underlying wire protocols (you can use
telnet to issue an XML encoded RPC call!)

Tunneling (read: sneaking RPC packets past your / your customer's security
folks) are bound to result in a rapid and rather severe clamp-down on your
application in no time at all (firewalls are very capable of filtering based
on http payloads). The nice thing about XML encoded RPC calls is that all of
the information is "in the clear" and can be readily parsed by HTTP filters.
There are also other efforts afront (e.g. SOAP) that make the intent of the
HTTP packets even clearer by adding HTTP headers that declare the
"SOAP-ness" of the packet payload, thereby allowing firewall admins to more
readily filter your packets: a compromise rather than an end-run.

My $.02.

-John

-----Original Message-----
From: Miles Sabin [mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 10:57 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)


David Hunter wrote,
> As am I.  And it's exactly the combination of XML and HTTP 
> which, to me, makes the browser unnecessary in many 
> situations.  If I can just put some kind of application on the 
> client, whether it be written in Java, or Visual Basic, or 
> C++, and have that application communicate with my servers via 
> XML and HTTP, I get all of the benefits of using the Internet 
> (or an Intranet or an Extranet, or any of the other names I 
> can't keep up with), PLUS, I get all of the advantages of 
> splitting my processing intelligently between server and 
> client.

I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
How is application specific markup better than an application
specific binary wire protocol?

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jan 18 16:18:17 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0271@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Miles Sabin [mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 10:57 AM
> 
> I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
> eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
> a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
> How is application specific markup better than an application
> specific binary wire protocol?

The two thoughts off the top of my head:

1)  It's easier to debug.  If things are going wrong, it's pretty cool to be
able to just pull the data up in Notepad, and see if there's anything screwy
going on.  Admittedly not a powerful reason at all.  :-)

2)  The ability to swap in and out different clients, and leave the server
alone.  If I want to use a Visual Basic client on my company's Windows
boxen, and C++ clients on my Mac boxen, and maybe Java on my UNIX boxen,
they can all still just communicate with the server via my XML document
type.  I don't have to make everyone use Java, or lock myself into a
specific CORBA vendor, or use DCOM and make ALL my clients Windows boxen,
etc.

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From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com  Tue Jan 18 16:35:54 2000
From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E01A98CF0@crusher.jcals.csc.com>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> 
<snip>browser/no browser discussion</snip>
> 
> Either way, I'm looking forward to lots of XML-based apps running over
> TCP/IP and possibly even HTTP.

   Absolutely. Interoperability will be the catalyst for lots of this type
of app. I've helped the WfMC (http://www.wfmc.org) with their Wf-XML spec,
which provides for XML-based interoperability between workflow systems. It's
firmly grounded as an XML-only spec with the intent that the
interoperability can be implemented over any number of transports/protocols,
including TCP/IP and HTTP. There's even a MIME binding for email-based
interaction.

Michael A. Rossi
mailto:mrossi@jcals.csc.com
856-983-4400 x4911

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan 18 16:49:44 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: quotes in canonical forms
Message-ID: <8625j6$2fo$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>


In http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xmltest/sun/cxml.html,
the second and third canonical forms have

PubidLiteral ::= '"' PubidChar* '"'
SystemLiteral ::= '"' [^"]* '"'

The literals are quoted with double quotes.  But in (eg)
sun/valid/out/sa04.xml the output has single quotes:

<!NOTATION bar SYSTEM 'file:/dev/tty'>

Which is canonical?

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From tbray at textuality.com  Tue Jan 18 16:58:16 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000118085628.01512100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 03:56 PM 1/18/00 -0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
>eg. CORBA or Java RMI 

Nobody would call it preferable in the general case.  The story I keep
hearing is that in comparison with XML, HTTP, string, and glue, frameworks 
like CORBA and RMI offer you, say N times as much (security, transaction 
semantics, etc), but cost M times as much time & money to deploy.  In some 
application contexts the relative values of M and N would predispose you 
toward CORBA, in others towards using XML.

If there's an underlying lesson, it's that the Web is all about doing
a lot with a little; the HTML/HTTP/URI trio have to count as one of the
great 80/20 point bullseyes in the history of technology.  With XML
messaging and HTTP piping, you can sometimes do a whole lot remarkably
quickly.

Doesn't mean CORBA's obsolete.  DCOM, maybe. -T.

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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Tue Jan 18 17:04:41 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:19 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675223@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38849D6C.99D190CB@trantor.de>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> David Meggison wrote,
> > I don't want to do that, but here's a possible compromise:
> I think the advocates of pull would be better off defining
> a completely separate API, better tuned to the very different
> style of parsing and handling they need ... which isn't to
> say that that API couldn't or shouldn't be part of the SAX
> empire.

Actually, I have already implemented a "Pull Wrapper" on 
top of SAX. 

Having two separate APIs for two completely different 
approaches to parsing is probably a cleaner than having a 
"Monser-SAX" doing everything. 

If someone else is implementing a pull parser, we should 
try to agree on a common, parser independent interface.
(e.g. org.xml.pullparser.* ?).

I would like it very much if we could just something 
similar to my current interface (I am nearly through 
implementing an XSchema parser using it), but I am 
open for everything...

My wrapper is LGPL-available at http://www.trantor.de/xml

It is already able to process namespaces. 

Best regards

Stefan

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From bd at internet-etc.com  Tue Jan 18 17:15:16 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
In-Reply-To: <200001120404.UAA22870@www.geocrawler.com>
Message-ID: <004201bf61d7$49cd08a0$15d65c8b@p300>

YEs - I've seen this demo'd, extracting from Oracle as XML to an XML Object
in an IE5 webpage which then uses JavaScript to write XSL into a 2nd
memory-resident XML object.  The XSL then transforms the XML into an SMTP
format which JavaScript then back to the server where it is outputted as a
pager message.  In actual fact, for your purposes JavaScript is overkill
unless you want to display in a web page.  You're better off using XSL to
transform the source XML output into the appropriate format for your
destination database.  XSL is easier to use and less bug-ridden than
JavaScript anyway.  You'll need a processor to support and run XSL, which
isn't easy to find.  I use JavaScript myself to do this simply because it's
around & works (sorta).  It only requires a couple of lines of code in
JavaScript to do this.  There's a little demo of using XSL with JavaScript
on our website at http://www.internet-etc.com/courses/xml/xsl/xslfset.htm.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>LaShika M
>Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 4:04 AM
>To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: XML & Databases
>
>
>This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M"
><lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
>Be sure to reply to that address.
>
>Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in
>XML using Javascript?
>Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for
>a couple of days and I have a
>assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of
>if it is possible to extract info
>out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another
>database.  HELP!
>
>Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
>mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
>for transfer to OASIS.
>
>


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Tue Jan 18 17:15:09 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: XML and java
In-Reply-To: <20000117204120.60585.qmail@hotmail.com>
Message-ID: <004001bf61d7$44a9b9e0$15d65c8b@p300>

I'm not a java programmer, but JavaScript and VB will generate this error if
you do not have the MS XMLObject installed.  You get it by installing IE5 or
the latest MS Virtual machine

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>tmmet tvp
>Sent: Monday, January 17, 2000 8:41 PM
>To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: XML and java
>
>
>Hi,
>I tried to load an XML file in my java file as follows...
>	public boolean GetTags()
>	{
>		String strxmlDoc = new
>ActiveXObject("Microsoft.xmldom");
>		m_strxmlDoc.load("<BOOK><BOOK1 Author = "Noone"
>Title = "God
>knows"></BOOK1></BOOK>);
>
>	}
>I'm getting an error "Undefined name ActiveXObject".
>What should I install/include to get out of this error.
>Thanks in advance.
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 17:24:46 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Stefan Haustein wrote,
> Actually, I have already implemented a "Pull Wrapper" on 
> top of SAX.
<snip/>
> My wrapper is LGPL-available at http://www.trantor.de/xml

Hmm ... interesting.

I guess that you must being running a plain SAX push parser in a
separate thread, and adding ParseEvents to a queue for
consumption by the pull client. At least, that's the usual
way of adapting push to pull.

I must admit that if I needed a pull parser I'd rather have
one that could run in a single thread and didn't have the
queueing overhead. But that means I'd have to have a state-
machine rather than recursive descent based parser. I think that
most SAX parsers are RD, so that'd mean new parsers ... and if
I needed a new parser I'd probably take the opportunity to
design an API that suited the task well rather than trying to
bolt it onto SAX.

OTOH, once you've got a pull parser it's very easy to construct
a push API on top of it and drive it,

  while(puller.hasNext())
    pushClient.handleEvent(puller.getNext());

So maybe we've been doing things back to front ;-)

> If someone else is implementing a pull parser, we should 
> try to agree on a common, parser independent interface.
> (e.g. org.xml.pullparser.* ?).

I think this would be a useful initiative.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Tue Jan 18 17:34:37 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (Jim Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
Message-ID: <20000118173419.17373.qmail@www0x.netaddress.usa.net>

David Megginson <david@megginson.com> wrote:
[snip]
> 
> Yes, but in retrospect I think it might be overkill -- this kind of
> thing belongs at a higher application layer, not in a low-level
> driver.  I was never too happy with the SAX1 ParserFactory either.

Fair enough, and I can see that there are larger fish to fry at the moment.
Maybe it does belong at a higher level but the concept does seem to resonate
with the general SAX theme.  Our attraction to SAX (for data exchange
facilities) is that it allows us to (hopefully) avoid a heck of a lot of code
change associated with moving specific parsers into or out of our environment
(and we don't have to blow the whole document into volatile before dealing
with the data, of course).

The missing piece, at least in our context, is a similar abstraction to the
"get-a-parser" process.  My first hack was a crude static Parser
getSAXParser(String features[]) with a lot of ugly, hard-wired "if" innards,
but if the app requests "Validation" (and we have deployed a parser able to
validate), it (ultimately) gets (a reference to) a Parser that validates. 

As it stands, this works for us only 'cause the group that handles this (and
other) interfaces also controls which parsers are deployed on our systems and
when. The interface can be enhanced and deployed in lockstep with the
parser(s) and the app developers use the interface (or at least they are
strongly encouraged to do so) to at least reduce the potential for
modification when/if (more likely when) we change/add/remove a parser.

Sounds like hog-heaven except now we have looming on the horizon the need to
deploy and integrate with a piece of third-party middleware of sorts that also
needs a parser.  Mutually nuts for them to use our interface (a "standard"
only on our systems). Implementation of a similar mechanism on their part
still injects another (although still relatively manageable) configuration
coordination point.  Maybe I'm missing something (spouse says I'm a
Pessimist…I prefer Realist :-) but I can see this getting more convoluted down
the pike as XML and the various parsers evolve (and we hit our Nth third party
package).

A public, standard mechanism (widely supported as is SAX) to acquire a parser
by feature, would appear to at least mitigate, if not eliminate, this bit of
inelegance. Not necessarily arguing that this belongs in SAX2 (the list of
what I don't get about XML seems to be growing way faster than what I do get,
despite lurking xml-dev and grinding slowly through the various specs…). Also
currently devoid of vision at the moment as to the details behind such an
animal (the approach we've taken so far would be a maintenance debacle in a
general public context). Perhaps an idea to resurrect some time in the future
(or in some other context)... 

Regards,

Jim Layer


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan 18 18:06:28 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca> <3.0.6.32.20000118034110.0099fa80@gpo.iol.ie>
Message-ID: <3884A306.A9A@hiwaay.net>

Sean McGrath wrote:
> 
> Amen. I see an increasing number of innovative Web apps in which
> the browser is the "viewer" as distinct from the app that is
> doing the real work.
> 
> I think it is interesting to ponder why this is so.
> My (controversial of course) view on this
> is that the Web client-side programming model of an
> embedded, sand-boxed, buggy,
> antithesis-of-a-text-processing-language has finally
> run its course.

Architecturally, it doesn't always make sense to make HTML the 
outer language layer or have a web browser be the framework.  
http and other transports should be just services available to 
any app.  The document centric/flow object model isn't the 
only way to do this.  Sometimes it makes sense; in other 
cases, it is just baggage.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan 18 18:06:25 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0270@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <3884A7F9.52DE@hiwaay.net>

Hunter, David wrote:
> 
>  But in
> other cases, it is a beautiful concept, such as the aforementioned
> RealNetworks example, or even something like ICQ.  I assume neither of these
> use XML to communicate data, but there will be other similar apps coming
> down the pipe.

Consider that new appliances will be bundling software in semi-closed 
boxes.  Downloads may not be as frequent because the stability of 
the appliance and the content it processes becomes more important than 
the momentum of evolving systems.  IOW, no one can afford the content if 
it doesn't stabilize.  This is particularly true as it gets more 
expensive to create.  Lifecycle costs and basic logistics are the 
dominating forces emerging.  Innovation slows down as costs rise.

Still, yes, these apps are coming down the pipe.  Consider the 
3D theatre and gaming applications for distributed use where several 
standards for XML application languages have to be adopted to ensure 
that the behaviors of the H-anim characters and the messages sent 
to them, the environmental descriptions, etc., can all be XML 
apps.  This is an example where the use of XHTML can be almost zero.

Get Beyond The Book Metaphor.  A page is just a page.  A stage is 
a different container.  Powerful stuff.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan 18 18:06:29 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <38838C8D.67DA@hiwaay.net> <3.0.32.20000117094619.0114f6f0@pop.intergate.ca> <200001180431.XAA01792@hesketh.net> <m3puuz7833.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3884A64A.1488@hiwaay.net>

David Megginson wrote:
> 
> Actually, Mosaic was doing that back in 1994, wasn't it?  At least, I
> remember spending a lot of time fiddling with MIME types to invoke
> different Linux apps.

We've had helpers as long as I can remember and that predates MIME, but 
these aren't helpers.  They will be alternatives to using XHTML. 
MAC86:  
ideal for the next generation of webApps.

> Actually, while this approach sounds good, it will give the sysadmins
> and security directors at, say, Boeing or the DoD, horrific
> nightmares.

The nightmares are not just security, but the hell of managing unstable 
apps that like to desync by reinstalling extant objects with
incompatible 
interfaces:  DLLHell.  In any case, if the sysAdmins aren't contracting 
for provably conformant apps, they are negligent.  
 
> It's already bad enough having to keep track of the (many) security
> bugs in browsers, approved plugins (BAN 'EM ALL!), and mail-readers,
> especially when *some* big vendors consider gaping security holes to
> be essential user-friendly features.  Add 40 or 50 helper apps, and
> you've multiplied the risk beyond the ability of most IS departments
> to even pretend to cope.

It is because everyone downloads willy-nilly for free and without 
adult supervision.  So?  We could all go to thin clients with 
configured servers:  used to be called a mainframe.  Our CEO sat 
me down a few years ago and explained to me that he liked that 
idea very much.  Why?  He felt it his perogative to control precisely 
what was on the machines he paid for.

> I still think that the biggest client-side use for XML
> is to send complex state information to a Java applet or to (yech)
> ECMAscript running inside a browser.

Data islands and CSV files are a good way to save reconnecting 
every time one wants to call a window with a dropdown in it.  
I don't think it much of an improvement or opportunity as 
much as one more bag'odata trick for getting around a 
stateless system.  The main problem with the XML/Java applet 
web server system is that it is possibly the most unproductive 
programming system design environment I've ever used.  Give 
me a nice VB environment that lets me whip up an app in a 
day versus one that takes a week to a month and begins 
to exhibit bugs the first time someone updates the MDAC, 
the common controls etc.  Really, the hardest problem 
is version control in a roomful of cats, rocking chairs, 
and obstinately swinging tails.

len



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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Tue Jan 18 18:04:25 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
References: <004201bf61d7$49cd08a0$15d65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <006101bf61df$39d317c0$3b652382@us.oracle.com>

Have a look at the "Airport Code Validation" at:

http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/demo/demo1.htm

This works with an IE5 browser to show how a client
HTML page can use a server-side XML Data "Service"
(in this example, provided server-side by an Oracle
XSQL-Page with a query over an AIRPORTS table
containing all the known world airports) to
help the user do data-entry.

In this demo, if the three-letter code you type in
matches one in the database, it fills in the info
that it gets back in the XML Datagram from the server.

If the code you type in (e.g. "VENI") does not
exactly match a 3-letter code, it falls back and
does a fuzzy-match query in the server and
returns an XML datagram with a list of potential
airports matching the name ("Venice, Italy", etc.)
which the DHTML page uses to build up a dynamic
poplist for the user to pick from.

have fun.

_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brandt Dainow" <bd@internet-etc.com>
To: "'LaShika M'" <archiver@db.geocrawler.com>; <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 8:36 AM
Subject: RE: XML & Databases


| YEs - I've seen this demo'd, extracting from Oracle as XML to an XML
Object
| in an IE5 webpage which then uses JavaScript to write XSL into a 2nd
| memory-resident XML object.  The XSL then transforms the XML into an SMTP
| format which JavaScript then back to the server where it is outputted as a
| pager message.  In actual fact, for your purposes JavaScript is overkill
| unless you want to display in a web page.  You're better off using XSL to
| transform the source XML output into the appropriate format for your
| destination database.  XSL is easier to use and less bug-ridden than
| JavaScript anyway.  You'll need a processor to support and run XSL, which
| isn't easy to find.  I use JavaScript myself to do this simply because
it's
| around & works (sorta).  It only requires a couple of lines of code in
| JavaScript to do this.  There's a little demo of using XSL with JavaScript
| on our website at http://www.internet-etc.com/courses/xml/xsl/xslfset.htm.
|
| Brandt Dainow
| bd@internet-etc.com
| Internet Etc Ltd
| http://www.internet-etc.com
|
| >-----Original Message-----
| >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
| >Behalf Of
| >LaShika M
| >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 4:04 AM
| >To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| >Subject: XML & Databases
| >
| >
| >This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M"
| ><lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
| >Be sure to reply to that address.
| >
| >Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in
| >XML using Javascript?
| >Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for
| >a couple of days and I have a
| >assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of
| >if it is possible to extract info
| >out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another
| >database.  HELP!
| >
| >Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
| >
| >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
| >mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
| >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
| >Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
| >for transfer to OASIS.
| >
| >
|
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
|
|


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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 18:06:13 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: org.xml.sax.helpers.SAXUtils
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675228@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Jim Layer wrote,
> A public, standard mechanism (widely supported as is SAX) to 
> acquire a parser by feature, would appear to at least 
> mitigate, if not eliminate, this bit of inelegance.

<grin/>

Agreed. Over the weekend I put together a trial implementation 
of the proposal I made at,

 
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail-archive/xml-dev/xml-dev-Jan-2000/0399.ht
ml

with support for query by feature.

Roughly speaking it looks like,

  public interface XMLReaderImplementation
  {
    // Does this implementation support
    // the given feature in the given enabled/disabled state
    public boolean supportsFeature
      (String name, boolean state);

    // Create an instance of this implementation
    public XMLReader createReader();
  }

  public class XMLReaderImplementations
  {
    // Create a default reader
    XMLReader createReader();

    // Create a reader which supports the given
    // features in the enabled state
    XMLReader createReader(String[] featuresWanted);

    // Create a reader which supports the given
    // features in the enabled/disabled state 
    XMLReader createReader
      (String[] featuresWanted, String[] featuresNotWanted);

    // Get the default implementation
    XMLReaderImplementation getImplementation();

    // Get an implementation which supports the
    // given features in the enabled state
    XMLReaderImplementation getImplementation
      (String[] featuresWanted);

    // Get an implementation which supports
    // given features in the enabled/disabled state
    XMLReaderImplementation getImplementation
      (String[] featuresWanted, String[] featuresNotWanted)

    // Return an Enumeration of all the
    // XMLReaderImplementations on the CLASSPATH
    Enumeration implementations();
  }

So, if you want an XMLReader that supports validation you
can do,

  XMLReader r = XMLReaderImplementations.
    createReader("whatever the validation feature string is");

If you need to do more complex querying of the capabilities
of the installed parsers you can do,

  Enumeration impls =
    XMLReaderImplementations.implementations();

  while(impls.hasMoreElements())
  {
    XMLReaderImplementation impl =
      (XMLReaderImplementation)impls.nextElement();

    if( ... impl ...) // some complex condition
      impl.createReader();

    // etc.
  }

The XMLReaderImplementation interface is needed because
otherwise we'd have to instantiate a reader _before_ being
able to test it's features ... to decide if we want to
instantiate it. And if you want to create more than one
instance of a particular type of parser you can hang onto the
XMLReaderImplementation and reuse it, rather then repeating
the query.

As described in my proposal, it's completely plug-n-play: no
more mucking about with -Dorg.xml.sax.parser=, just put the
parser on the CLASSPATH and it's available.

David has a copy ... anyone else interested should mail me.

Nb. it's _only_ an implementation of the factory/query stuff ...
the rest of SAX2 is skeletons only.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/



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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Tue Jan 18 18:14:44 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3884AE0C.2B3EA347@trantor.de>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> Stefan Haustein wrote,
> > Actually, I have already implemented a "Pull Wrapper" on
> > top of SAX.
> <snip/>
> > My wrapper is LGPL-available at http://www.trantor.de/xml
> 
> Hmm ... interesting.
> 
> I guess that you must being running a plain SAX push parser in a
> separate thread, and adding ParseEvents to a queue for
> consumption by the pull client. At least, that's the usual
> way of adapting push to pull.

Yes, that's the way it works.

> I must admit that if I needed a pull parser I'd rather have
> one that could run in a single thread and didn't have the
> queueing overhead. But that means I'd have to have a state-
> machine rather than recursive descent based parser. 

Yes, having a direct pull implementation would be nicer.
However, switching the implementation later shouldn't be 
a problem since the interface would not need to be changed.

Best regards

Stefan

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From Steve.Tolkin at fmr.com  Tue Jan 18 18:22:43 2000
From: Steve.Tolkin at fmr.com (Tolkin, Steve)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: CamelCase names for XML elements vs. property names for Java bean
	s
Message-ID: <4BFA6709C997D311B3E80008C7917E740BCC0C@MSGBOS679NTS.fmr.com>

In XML both object and their properties can be represented by
elements, with a object being a non-leaf element and a property a leaf
element.  (See quote from BizTalk guidelines below.)  But this
distinction is not a strong one, e.g. the leaf element <name> can
later be changed to a non-leaf element with children <firstName> and
<lastName>.  (This is unlike the relational model of databases, where
the distinction between tables and columns is a strong one.)

Q1. Should leaf elements use a different naming convention than
non-leaf elements?
I think these should use the same convention, to make it easy to
"migrate" between whether an element is a leaf or non-leaf element.

Q2. Should elements use lowerCamelCase or UpperCamelCase?
I at first adopted UpperCamelCase for two reasons:
* It looks much more natural to ordinary end users, who might see the
XML tags e.g. in the IE tree control.  For example "PurchaseOrder"
sems much more like the natural language "Puchase Order" than does
"purchaseOrder".
* XML elements are more likely to be represented as classes than as
properties (because elements themselves can have XML attributes).

But this is in conflict with the naming convention for Java beans: 
the name of a bean property must start with a lowercase letter.  
(Actually this is not a requirement, but if it is not followed the java
programmer must explictly write a bunch of code instead of having the
getFoo and setFoo accessors "for free".)  It seems desirable, but
highly unlikely, hat Java beans change to frst try to find a property
named Foo i.e. starting with an uppercase letter.

Summary: there are at least three reasonable naming conventions
and here are their pros and cons.
1. All Elements UpperCamelCase: 
Pro: Elements names are consistent so it is easy to "migrate".
Pro: Has "user-friendly" tag names.
Con: Violates BizTalk guidelines.
Con: Hard to use with Java beans.

2. All Elements lowerCamelCase: 
Pro: Elements names are consistent so it is easy to "migrate".
Pro: Easy to use with Java beans
Con: Violates BizTalk guidelines.
Con: Does not have "user-friendly" tag names.

3. Non-leaf elements are UpperCamelCase and 
leaf elements are lowerCamelCase:
Pro: Follows BizTalk guidelines.
Even: Leaf elements easy to use with Java beans, but not non-leaf elements.
Even: Leaf elements have "user-friendly" names, but not non-leaf elements.
Con: Element names are not consistent so it is hard to "migrate".

What approach are people using?  What other factors matter here?

Steven Tolkin 

P.S.  I know we could use lowercase_with_underscore-or-dash names, 
so please do not suggest this.

In the BizTalk Framework Document Design Guide
(http://www.BizTalk.org/Resources/frame081.asp).
    Names and Cases: Names should use the style called
"CamelCase." If an element reflects a thing (an object, a class or a
table name), use UpperCamelCase; if it is a property, a reference,
etc., use lowerCamelCase.
    Expressing Data: All simple data (trees, columns, rows, objects,
properties, etc.) should be expressed as elements and subelements, not
attributes.

An excerpt from beans_101.pdf downloaded 2000-01-14 from 
http://java.sun.com/beans/docs/spec.html
8.2 Overview of Design Patterns
... For example the use of getFoo and setFoo methods to
retrieve and set the values of a "foo" property. 
[The first character after the accessor prefix of is, get, or set
is forced to lowercase.  This only appears in the examples.
It is a subtle point that should have been stated explicitly.  
Steve]

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 18 18:23:11 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000118085628.01512100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEPCELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Tim,

Tim said:
Nobody would call it preferable in the general case.  The story I keep
hearing is that in comparison with XML, HTTP, string, and glue, frameworks
like CORBA and RMI offer you, say N times as much (security, transaction
semantics, etc), but cost M times as much time & money to deploy.  In some
application contexts the relative values of M and N would predispose you
toward CORBA, in others towards using XML.

If there's an underlying lesson, it's that the Web is all about doing
a lot with a little; the HTML/HTTP/URI trio have to count as one of the
great 80/20 point bullseyes in the history of technology.  With XML
messaging and HTTP piping, you can sometimes do a whole lot remarkably
quickly.

Doesn't mean CORBA's obsolete.  DCOM, maybe. -T.

Didier reply:
Does not mean that DCOM is dead either. In fact, the good question to ask is
what is CORBA and DCOM after all, and is the difference between CORBA and
DCOM?

Q: what is CORBA and DCOM after all?
A: CORBA: an interface definition format named IDL. a marshalling convention
named IIOP. The notion of encoding-decoding with the usage of stubs (that
encode and decode from programming language into the marshalling format).
DCOM: an interface definition format named IDL but different from CORBA (in
fact based on a previous consortium name OSF). A marshalling format based on
the OSF RPC marshalling format. the notion of encoding-decoding with the
usage of stubs (in fact named in this case proxy and stub - both used to
encode and decode from the marshalling format into a programming language).
CORBA is available as free software (IDL compiler, run time ORB etc.) and as
product. It is, I also bundled with the Gnome package and any Linux package
that include GNOME.
DCOM is bundled in the 150 millions copies of Windows and is also available
(bug yet buggy) as free software (the WINE project). Could also be obtained
as free software for the Unix/Linux platform (re: Software AG) and available
as product.

Q:What is the difference?
R: the IDL and how objects/interfaces are structured.
DCOM includes a binary interface definition and thus allows true
inter-operability between components even created with different languages
to work together. Thus, components could be used intra-address  space
(without marshalling) or inter-address space (with marshalling)
CORBA only include an inter-address space mechanism and has no binary
interface convention.

Q: what would be the best world?
That both CORBA and DCOM provide an IDL to an XML based marshaler. This way,
at least, two components (a) a CORBA one and (b) a DCOM one could be made to
inter-operate if both also use HTTP as a transport mechanism.

Will DCOM disappear? Come one Tim, get out of your home :-) How to make
disappear 150 million windows just to say dip a dip doo? and bang it all
disappear with a touch of a magic wand? So DCOM is here to stay as long as
window as a comfortable market share.
Will CORBA increase its market share? yes if all Linux package bundle the
same ORB. Will CORBA get a bigger market share than DCOM? only if all Linux
packages does (a) bundle the same ORB, (b) increase their market share. (b)
is happening, (a) is not, the Linux world is not an homogeneous one, there
are several resellers and packagers that obviously are trying to
differentiate and play, in certain ways, the same game as Microsoft does
(try to get their customers captive).

What is the advantages of both DCOM and CORBA?
have an interface definition language that allows you to compile it and
create a mapping for a particular language. You then created a meta language
for procedural or non procedural languages. It resolves the impedance
mismatch between components and allows the development by components instead
of re-inventing the wheel each time.

What W3C could do to really help us create inter-operable apps?
forget about the IDL and crusade about CORBA. Just focus on the marshalling
format and do a recommendation for the marshalling format and transport
mechanism. Get in the WG representative from Microsoft, the OMG consortium
and the Linux community (are there any Linux packager part of the W3
consortium?) and get them agree on a common marshalling and transport
format. Believe me, we'll have accomplished a lot toward inter-operability
of applications.

What is in the way to make that happen?
Simply the will of somebody to put that on the W3C agenda.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 18 18:37:52 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675229@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Didier PH Martin wrote,
> Q: what would be the best world?
> That both CORBA and DCOM provide an IDL to an XML based 
> marshaler. This way, at least, two components (a) a CORBA one 
> and (b) a DCOM one could be made to inter-operate if both also 
> use HTTP as a transport mechanism.

Yes ... but ... why?

If you've got CORBA/RMI/DCOM clients and servers on both ends 
why would you want to take a detour via XML over HTTP (other 
than for firewall traversal). The generated XML would be about 
as illuminating (and as helpful for interoperation) as running
a binary executable through a disassembler.

I think this is a case of horses for courses ... both XML over
HTTP and CORBA/RMI/DCOM have useful jobs to do, but I don't
think either can make the other redundant.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From clark.evans at manhattanproject.com  Tue Jan 18 18:37:49 2000
From: clark.evans at manhattanproject.com (Clark C. Evans)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: <14468.31231.86013.244513@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001181328460.4752-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com>

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, David Megginson wrote:
> There are two different ways that an event-based interface can work:
> the event supplier can push events out to the consumer, or the
> consumer can pull events from the supplier.

Yes.  I very much like the push interface for branches 
(elements), however, a pull interface for the leaf
content would be extremely useful, and perhaps more
efficient.  See the Character Tugging post.

I think SAX would be far improved if it continued 
to push elements, but allowed for leaf characters
to be pulled.

> SAX is very much a push interface, but some people have asked if it
> might be possible to add optional support for pull, so that you can do
> something like
> 
>   Event e = xmlReader.nextEvent();

Pull interfaces are great for reading, and push
interfaces are great for writing.  You can go
from pull to push without problem; however going
from push to pull requires extra buffering, novel
communication or multi-threading.

Thus, a pull interface is not ideal for a multi
stage process; due to the push->pull conversion
between each stage.  Of course, receiving push
is a bit annoying, but a nested object handler
can transparently mitigate this concern.

However, you can allow for "pull" at the leaves of 
a "push" with little to no effort.  In fact, it
may be more efficient...


> Questions
> ---------
> 
> 1. Is this adequate for the people who want pull?  I really don't want 
>    to define a separate object for each event type (especially when we 
>    allow arbitrary extension handlers).

I'd just like leaf content to be pulled... the extension handler
seemed like a complicated solution for a simple problem.

> 2. Is it OK that a single call to nextEvent() might generate two or
>    three events in some cases?
> 
> 3. Would any of the parser writers out there want to support this?


What is better is Paul Miller's nested handler idea, 
(XMLIO) letting a ContentHandler return a sub-handler to 
receive all of the child events for a given element.

   ContentHandler beginElement(...)

Combined with a CharTug, this works beautyfully...
I have a SML interface and parser which works
this way.  It's pretty.

Clark


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 18 18:53:25 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.
 co.uk>
Message-ID: <200001181853.NAA08077@hesketh.net>

At 03:56 PM 1/18/00 +0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
>eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
>a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
>How is application specific markup better than an application
>specific binary wire protocol?

As others have said here already, XML isn't preferable in a lot of
case-by-case situations.  On the other hand, defining data formats for
interchange makes it much easier for different developers to choose
different transport mechanisms at will, without being trapped in a single
large and complex environment.

At 06:37 PM 1/18/00 +0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>If you've got CORBA/RMI/DCOM clients and servers on both ends 
>why would you want to take a detour via XML over HTTP (other 
>than for firewall traversal). The generated XML would be about 
>as illuminating (and as helpful for interoperation) as running
>a binary executable through a disassembler.

If you already have that infrastructure on both ends, I doubt there's much
value in changing it over to XML/HTTP.  On the other hand, if you don't
have that infrastructure on both ends, or are faced with supporting it in a
diverse set of environments, I would strongly urge you take a look at XML.

Even if you're talking about straight object-to-object communication, tools
like JXML's Quick let you handle that communication in ways that are much
more interesting than disassembled binary material.  Sun's latest moves
toward using XML for Java object persistence in 1.3 may provide similar
food for thought.

For me, the key aspect that XML provides - and other solutions don't - is
that XML can be made to work in nearly any vaguely modern computing
environment, with a relatively small overhead.  There may be more work to
do as far as connecting the XML information to your applications, but
you'll be able to do it when and how you feel appropriate, without needing
much infrastructure.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 18 19:00:13 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000118085628.01512100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200001181900.OAA08862@hesketh.net>

At 08:56 AM 1/18/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:
>If there's an underlying lesson, it's that the Web is all about doing
>a lot with a little; the HTML/HTTP/URI trio have to count as one of the
>great 80/20 point bullseyes in the history of technology.  With XML
>messaging and HTTP piping, you can sometimes do a whole lot remarkably
>quickly.

I like this story a lot, but I'm not convinced that the browser per se is
the result of this message.  I'd like to see a lot of different Internet
standards XML-ized (email, news, HTML, etc.), hopefully leading to a
simpler application development environment.  That doesn't mean that I want
to use a browser to read my email or my news - it just means that I want to
be able to ride along on similar techologies.  Somewhere along the line
browsers got big - I'd like to see them shrink down a _lot_, or at least
fragment into a lot of smaller pieces with limited dependencies.

And of course, in the meantime, it'll mean a lot of middleware.

We'll see.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Tue Jan 18 19:53:09 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: ?Simple XML parser for Mac's
References: <200001181900.OAA08862@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <003701bf61ef$c83a3880$bdacdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

Canany one recommend an XML parser suitable for an entry level user on a
Mac.

TIA

Frank


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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 20:05:16 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 17:24:04 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3ln5n6t9e.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> I think that most SAX parsers are RD,

Tim Bray's Lark is a notable exception -- it uses giant state tables.
I don't remember what XP does.

Personally, I like recursive-descent a lot (and probably wouldn't have 
finished writing the original AElfred parser otherwise).  Miles
guesses correctly that SAX1 was push to accommodate existing parsers.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 20:11:11 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: CORBA/RMI vs XML/RDF/XMI
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:56:58 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3iu0r6szc.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
> eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
> a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
> How is application specific markup better than an application
> specific binary wire protocol?

For many applications, especially inside the firewall, XML over HTTP
is not the better choice.

However, for devices with unreliable connectivity (say, home
computers, portables, handhelds, etc.), it is very convenient to be
able to take an object's state and send it out in a single
transaction, and even inside the firewall it's sometimes useful to be
able to write an object's state to disk and transfer it from a secure
machine to a public machine by sneakernet (or likewise, by secure
courier between two different companies).

In other words

  Intranet = good connectivity = few users = stateful = CORBA/RMI
  Internet = bad connectivity = many users = stateless = XML/RDF/XMI

This is, of course, a gross oversimplification, but it's at least a
good starting point.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 18 20:16:21 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675229@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEPFELAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Sabin,

Sabin said:
If you've got CORBA/RMI/DCOM clients and servers on both ends
why would you want to take a detour via XML over HTTP (other
than for firewall traversal). The generated XML would be about
as illuminating (and as helpful for interoperation) as running
a binary executable through a disassembler.

I think this is a case of horses for courses ... both XML over
HTTP and CORBA/RMI/DCOM have useful jobs to do, but I don't
think either can make the other redundant.

Didier replies:
There is an hidden asset in using XML as a marshaling language. For
instance, an object's content can be encoded as an element. If the object at
one end is either a CORBA or a DCOM objects equipped with a stub to decode
the marshaled XML format back to the object's value, the CORBA/DCOM object
can process it and return an answer...as an XML formatted document. So far,
so good, you probably made the inference that the client is also a
CORBA/DCOM object. It could be the case, but it could as well be a browser
that crated an XML document to be sent to the remote object. Moreover, the
middleware may as well always include a <xml-stylesheet> processing
instruction. A client object may do nothing with it but a browser would.

The important thing to see here, is that if we use a common format for
either document or data, then data could be seen as a document. For
instance, the marshaled content usually opaque can be seen as a document and
displayed in a browser. Or a document could be transformed and fed to a
CORBA/DCOM object. The end result versatility and a huge paradigm shift to
do ;-)

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 20:17:51 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
In-Reply-To: Tyler Baker's message of "Mon, 17 Jan 2000 16:34:48 -0500"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751EF@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <38838AF7.9B3845CE@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <m3puv0t966.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Tyler Baker <tyler@infinet.com> writes:

> As you can see an identity test is done right off the bat so if you make a call like this:
> 
> if (foo.equals("x")) {
> 
> }
> 
> And foo == "x", then your only additional overhead to a straight identity test is the
> dynamic method invocation of String.equals().

Only if the strings are equal -- if you're in a long switch statement, 
most of them won't be equal, and the overhead will be much more than
the function call.


All the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 18 20:18:18 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: tricky XHTML 1.0 namespace question
In-Reply-To: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk's message of "17 Jan 2000 22:07:43 +0000"
References: <200001171804.NAA01595@hesketh.net> <f5bwvp8zhnq.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> <m3ya9otspl.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <f5bogakz70w.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m3snzwt98b.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson) writes:

> I guess my problem here is that asking XHTML to say they _don't_ do
> this falls into the category of what the technical writer who taught
> me technical writing called the Spurious Negative.  In general, he
> said, avoid statements like "Relay 12 does not energise at this
> point."

Not really -- if there's a reasonable possibility of confusion, a good 
technical writer should be as explicit as necessary.

> RDF arguably made a mistake.  Not a standards error, just a tactical
> mistake.  I don't think that means that every XML aplication from here 
> to eternity needs to say "Oh, by the way, we didn't make the confusing 
> mistake that RDF did."

It's hard to see how or whether they should have done it otherwise.
It's certainly necessary in RDF to have

  <foo:MyClass rdf:about="xxx">

I suppose that they could have banned

  <rdf:Description about="xxx">

We'll see how general usage pans out.  While we were designing the
spec, many (most?) WG members agreed that the RDF usage would be the
common case, but they wanted to allow for the alternative just in case
someone needed it.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Tue Jan 18 20:23:55 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:20 2004
Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
In-Reply-To: <200001181853.NAA08077@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <004801bf61f1$983b50e0$15d65c8b@p300>

I like W3C's statement on their summary doc - "XML may not be the answer to
everything, but it's always worth considering."

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Simon St.Laurent
>Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 6:54 PM
>To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
>
>
>At 03:56 PM 1/18/00 +0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>>I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
>>eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
>>a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
>>How is application specific markup better than an application
>>specific binary wire protocol?
>
>As others have said here already, XML isn't preferable in a lot of
>case-by-case situations.  On the other hand, defining data formats for
>interchange makes it much easier for different developers to choose
>different transport mechanisms at will, without being trapped
>in a single
>large and complex environment.
>
>At 06:37 PM 1/18/00 +0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>>If you've got CORBA/RMI/DCOM clients and servers on both ends
>>why would you want to take a detour via XML over HTTP (other
>>than for firewall traversal). The generated XML would be about
>>as illuminating (and as helpful for interoperation) as running
>>a binary executable through a disassembler.
>
>If you already have that infrastructure on both ends, I doubt
>there's much
>value in changing it over to XML/HTTP.  On the other hand, if you don't
>have that infrastructure on both ends, or are faced with
>supporting it in a
>diverse set of environments, I would strongly urge you take a
>look at XML.
>
>Even if you're talking about straight object-to-object
>communication, tools
>like JXML's Quick let you handle that communication in ways
>that are much
>more interesting than disassembled binary material.  Sun's latest moves
>toward using XML for Java object persistence in 1.3 may provide similar
>food for thought.
>
>For me, the key aspect that XML provides - and other solutions
>don't - is
>that XML can be made to work in nearly any vaguely modern computing
>environment, with a relatively small overhead.  There may be
>more work to
>do as far as connecting the XML information to your applications, but
>you'll be able to do it when and how you feel appropriate,
>without needing
>much infrastructure.
>
>Simon St.Laurent
>XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
>Building XML Applications
>Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
>Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
>http://www.simonstl.com
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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From jlapp at webMethods.com  Tue Jan 18 20:28:33 2000
From: jlapp at webMethods.com (Joe Lapp)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: CORBA/RMI vs XML/RDF/XMI
In-Reply-To: <m3iu0r6szc.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
References: <Miles Sabin's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:56:58 -0000">
 <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000118152127.023f1020@nexus.webmethods.com>

At 03:10 PM 1/18/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:
>
> > I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
> > eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
> > a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
> > How is application specific markup better than an application
> > specific binary wire protocol?
>
>[...] In other words
>
>   Intranet = good connectivity = few users = stateful = CORBA/RMI
>   Internet = bad connectivity = many users = stateless = XML/RDF/XMI

I think the #1 reason is probably barrier to entry.  You can get an 
HTTP stack and an XML parser for pretty much anything, and you can get 
HTTP and XML through pretty much anything (such as 
firewalls).  Learning curves and deployment times tend to also be shorter.

CORBA requires tightly-coupled software at both ends.  RMI rides on the 
pervasiveness of Java, but both RMI and CORBA require HTTP tunneling to 
get through firewalls -- just another piece that XML/HTTP doesn't require.

Besides, the smaller a piece is, the easier it is to swallow.

--
Joe Lapp
Principal Architect
webMethods, Inc.
http://www.webMethods.com

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From dave at userland.com  Tue Jan 18 20:36:39 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
References: <004801bf61f1$983b50e0$15d65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <00ef01bf61f3$adbb8c80$1918ccce@murphy>

Since no one else has included this link in the discussion of XML-over-HTTP:

http://www.xmlrpc.com/

Since April 1999.

Dave


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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Tue Jan 18 20:47:33 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: ?Simple XML parser for Mac's
In-Reply-To: <003701bf61ef$c83a3880$bdacdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001181546110.18131-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>


The XML support in Media Design in-Progress' tools has been very helpful- 

http://www.in-progress.com

Otherwise, there's the Python install option and the 4Thought tools.

jr

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe

On Tue, 18 Jan 2000, Frank Boumphrey wrote:

> Canany one recommend an XML parser suitable for an entry level user on a
> Mac.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.
> 


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From psimonse at jcpenney.com  Tue Jan 18 20:53:57 2000
From: psimonse at jcpenney.com (Paul H Simonsen)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
References: <200001181853.NAA08077@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <3884D315.4D31942B@jcpenney.com>

Sorry, joined the thread late. Don't know if it has already been mentioned but the
following article provides some relevant comparisons.

http://archive.javareport.com/9910/html/from_pages/ftp_feature.shtml


--
Paul



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From mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com  Tue Jan 18 21:50:07 2000
From: mrossi at crusher.jcals.csc.com (Michael Rossi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: XML vs. CORBA (was RE: Alternatives to browsers)
Message-ID: <472EF0A38796D21185810000F807DD1E01A98CF5@crusher.jcals.csc.com>

   Anyone read this: http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=214? Sounds like
it may be of interest.

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From bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com  Tue Jan 18 21:57:49 2000
From: bosak at boethius.eng.sun.com (Jon Bosak)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Fwd: WWW9 registration now open
Message-ID: <200001182157.NAA15252@boethius.eng.sun.com>

Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2000 17:07:40 -0500
From: "E. Tang" <etang@foretec.com>
To: w9-announce <www9-announce@www9.org>
Subject: [WWW9-Announce] Conference Registration

Greetings!

Registration for the 9th International World Wide Web Conference is now
officially open.

The deadline for earlybird registration is April 10, 2000.

Payment must also be received no later than 5pm EST, on this date, in
order to qualify for the earlybird reduced conference rate.

For more detailed information please go to:
http://www9.org/w9-newreg.html

All inquiries should be sent to: web-registrar@www9.org

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From jm at grabit.dk  Tue Jan 18 22:19:00 2000
From: jm at grabit.dk (Jan Mikael [grabit media])
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <011a01bf6202$0e3e8c20$685ea8c0@Stofanet.dk>

unsubscribe

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 18 23:36:18 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML Elements of Style
Message-ID: <200001182336.SAA25124@hesketh.net>

I'd happy to report that my latest book, _XML Elements of Style_, is now
available.

XML Elements of Style is aimed at developers who already have at least a
basic understanding of XML (maybe from _XML: A Primer_).  It covers the XML
1.0 and Namespaces in XML Recommendations in detail - everything from
elements and attributes to unparsed entities and notations.
Interoperability issues get special highlighting, including details on the
interactions between Namespaces and XML and the behavior(s) of
non-validating parsers.

I hope this book provides readers with a solid reference to the core XML
standards, describing best practices while explaining a lot of obscure
details.  It contains 35 mostly brief chapters explaining particular
aspects of XML and XML document structure development.

Despite the title, this book does not cover CSS or XSL in depth - it covers
'style' used in a more general sense, as best practices.  Developers
looking for a guide to programming style in SAX or the DOM would probably
be better served by other books as well.

A lot more information (including the introduction to the book, which was
mysteriously left off) is available at:
http://www.simonstl.com/xmleos/

I hope folks like this book - XML-Dev, in many ways, made it possible.

Thanks!

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From rwaldin at pacbell.net  Tue Jan 18 23:58:47 2000
From: rwaldin at pacbell.net (Ray Waldin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: CamelCase names for XML elements vs. property names for Java bean s
References: <4BFA6709C997D311B3E80008C7917E740BCC0C@MSGBOS679NTS.fmr.com>
Message-ID: <3884FE16.353C71ED@pacbell.net>

"Tolkin, Steve" wrote:
> In the BizTalk Framework Document Design Guide
> (http://www.BizTalk.org/Resources/frame081.asp).
>     Names and Cases: Names should use the style called
> "CamelCase." If an element reflects a thing (an object, a class or a
> table name), use UpperCamelCase; if it is a property, a reference,
> etc., use lowerCamelCase.
>     Expressing Data: All simple data (trees, columns, rows, objects,
> properties, etc.) should be expressed as elements and subelements, not
> attributes.

Microsoft has recently changed their examples to use lowerCamelCase attributes
instead of elements for "properties".  Here's the example from the Document
Design Guide you quoted above:

> <PurchaseOrder xmlns=
>   "urn:schemas-biztalk.org:your-namespace/purchaseorder.xml">
> <POHeader> 
> <PONumber>12345</PONumber>
> <PaymentType>INVOICE</PaymentType> 
> <POShipTo>
> <street1>Your Street 1</street1>
> <street2>Your Street 2</street2> 
> <city>Your City</city>
> </POShipTo >
> ...
> </PurchaseOrder>

And here's a similar example from a more recently published BizTalk Framework
Document Specification 1.0 
(http://206.132.62.135/Biztalk%20Framework%20Document%20Specification%201.0.doc): 

> <PO xmlns="x-schema:http://schemas.biztalk.org/BizTalk/cfwau8qx.xml">
>   <POHeader
>     refPromise="0"
>     fromCust="111111111"
>     poNumber="PO# 12345"
>     description=""
>     paymentType="INVOICE"
>     shipType="AIR1D" />
>   <Contact
>     contactName=""
>     contactPhone=""
>     contactEmail="" />
>   <POShipTo
>     street1="200 Smith Rd"
>     street2=""
>     street3=""
>     street4=""
>     attn="Bob Smith"
>     city="Anytown"
>     stateProvince=""
>     postalCode="54321"
>     country="USA" /> 
> ...
> </PO>

Personally, I prefer UpperCamelCase for both element and attribute names.

-Ray

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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 01:09:39 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: XML-RPC interface for Manila
Message-ID: <01c101bf6219$d8b79e80$1918ccce@murphy>

Manila is our browser-based web content management system. Like apps of an earlier era, not only does it have a user interface, it also has a scripting interface. We're building a desktop editing app to connect into our web application. And the interface we're using is open and documented, to encourage other easy to use writing, design and graphics apps to become Internet-enabled.

Here's the spec..

http://www.xmlrpc.com/stories/storyReader$700

Dave Winer
UserLand Software
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From fujisawa at the.canon.co.jp  Wed Jan 19 01:28:06 2000
From: fujisawa at the.canon.co.jp (Jun Fujisawa)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: AElfred XML Parser for Palm
Message-ID: <v04210a01b4aac278c948@[172.20.38.43]>

Hello all,

I'm pleased to announce that I have ported AElfred
XML parser for running on Palm platform. The first
preliminary version of AElfred for Palm (PR1) is
now available for downloading.

<http://fujisawa.org/palm/>

KVM Early Acess 0.2 (available from Sun Developer
Connection site) is required to run the software.

Please let me know if you have any question or
problem.

Enjoy!

--
Jun Fujisawa
<mailto:fujisawa@the.canon.co.jp>

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From tyler at infinet.com  Wed Jan 19 02:21:50 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: String interning /servers
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A6751FE@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388395FD.30E3A0E2@infinet.com> <001301bf6141$88780a00$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com> <3884520C.1E794179@mecomnet.de>
Message-ID: <38851F48.DFF20ECF@infinet.com>

james anderson wrote:

> Perhaps this is yet another argument for a less primitive intern-basis
> than that of String.intern().
> a. One could well intern QNames rather than Strings, with the
> concomitant ability to specify the strength of the reference. This
> entails the "bothersome" static bindings, but i'm actually fond of them.
> b. One could well structure the intern-map to reflect the namespace
> partitions and flush qname-packages on an lru basis.
>
> In all, the server life-span shouldn't stop one from interning.

For applications that use XML Namespaces, this would make dealing with Namespaces much
more efficient as well as a lot more straightforward if what you are saying is to create a
specialized QName object (or interface).

Tyler


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Wed Jan 19 04:46:42 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: quotes in canonical forms
References: <8625j6$2fo$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <388541A1.7F2E779F@pacbell.net>

Richard Tobin wrote:
> 
> In http://www.oasis-open.org/committees/xmltest/sun/cxml.html,
> the second and third canonical forms have
> 
> PubidLiteral ::= '"' PubidChar* '"'
> SystemLiteral ::= '"' [^"]* '"'
> 
> The literals are quoted with double quotes.  But in (eg)
> sun/valid/out/sa04.xml the output has single quotes:
> 
> <!NOTATION bar SYSTEM 'file:/dev/tty'>
> 
> Which is canonical?

It'd appear that that draft is wrong, and single quotes
should be used, eh?  :-)

As for how these relate to the W3C canonical form stuff,
I should read that document; it wasn't clear from looking
at its requirements that it was intended to support apps
such as conformance testing.

- Dave

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Wed Jan 19 04:42:27 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <004d01bf6238$5e76d540$342a08d1@tomshp>


Miles Sabin wrote:

> David Hunter wrote,
> > As am I.  And it's exactly the combination of XML and HTTP
> > which, to me, makes the browser unnecessary in many
> > situations.  If I can just put some kind of application on the
> > client, whether it be written in Java, or Visual Basic, or
> > C++, and have that application communicate with my servers via
> > XML and HTTP, I get all of the benefits of using the Internet
> > (or an Intranet or an Extranet, or any of the other names I
> > can't keep up with), PLUS, I get all of the advantages of
> > splitting my processing intelligently between server and
> > client.
>
> I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
> eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
> a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.

XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA and easier to get
going.  There are (I imagine) many, many applications that don't need all
the CORBA machinery.  Java RMI supposes Java, but how about something for
non-Java people?

> How is application specific markup better than an application
> specific binary wire protocol?
>

HTML showed that human-readable text markup is a LOT better that a binary
format if you want to get widespread involvement and development.  I think
the same will continue with XML applications, even though they won't be as
simple as banging out a little HTML was in the early days.

> Cheers,
>
> Miles

Cheers,
Tom Passin


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From ralph.cramer at danet.de  Wed Jan 19 08:52:34 2000
From: ralph.cramer at danet.de (Ralph Cramer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <004101bf625a$5c7df300$70126586@pc_rc.tt.danet.de>

unsubscribe


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From dt at geografik.dk  Wed Jan 19 09:20:56 2000
From: dt at geografik.dk (Dennis Thrysoe - GeoGrafik A/S)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Redecleration of Element
In-Reply-To: <016d01bf6123$66a2d400$47bdb3c7@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <000901bf625e$79a15f90$0801640a@novi.geografik.dk>

Hi,

I am standing here with a legacy issue. A system was designed to be flexible
be changing the "dataroot" element.

This implies changing the documentroot element's defenition:

<!ELEMENT DOCROOT (A)>

or sometimes

<!ELEMENT DOCROOT (B)>

I need some help arguing against this practive, as I feel it is against the
spirit of XML and declarative documents. Does anybody know of some
litterature or a discussion of this anywhere?

TIA,

-dennis


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From john at intronet.com  Wed Jan 19 09:26:49 2000
From: john at intronet.com (john@intronet.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <E146DD1FF486D311863B00409503BB160635DF@INTRONET_SERVER>

unsubscribe


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From altorrecillas at cirsa.com  Wed Jan 19 09:28:02 2000
From: altorrecillas at cirsa.com (Angel Torrecillas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
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From: altorrecillas at cirsa.com (Angel Torrecillas)
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From john at intronet.com  Wed Jan 19 09:33:08 2000
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 10:15:13 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522D@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Didier PH Martin wrote,
> The important thing to see here, is that if we use a common 
> format for either document or data, then data could be seen as a 
> document. For instance, the marshaled content usually opaque can 
> be seen as a document and displayed in a browser. Or a document 
> could be transformed and fed to a CORBA/DCOM object. The end 
> result versatility and a huge paradigm shift to do ;-)

Remember that my original question was, 'Why is _application_
specific_ markup preferable to an _application_specific_ binary
wire protocol'.

XML encoding gets you a common generic format, but it doesn't
get you semantic transparency. So, sure, you'd be able to
parse the contents of XML rpc packets, but that doesn't mean
you'll be able to do anything interesting with them.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From fpuel at ogilvy.net  Wed Jan 19 10:21:47 2000
From: fpuel at ogilvy.net (Franck PUEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <388590C3.46B73DAB@ogilvy.net>

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 10:26:55 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: String interning (WAS: SAX2/Java: Towards a final form)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522E@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote,
> Tyler Baker wrote,
> > And foo == "x", then your only additional overhead to a 
> > straight identity test is the dynamic method invocation of 
> > String.equals().
>
> Only if the strings are equal -- if you're in a long switch 
> statement, most of them won't be equal, and the overhead will be 
> much more than the function call.

With a JIT that can inline this is a non-issue. We lose the
function call overhead, and the != case is actually the best
case for equals() ... we may only have to inspect the first
character to determine a mismatch. So the overhead boils down
to a few extra instructions and a few extra memory accesses.

This isn't just theoretical ... Hotspot does just that. In
fact I can't see any real reason why less ambitious JITs
shouldn't be able to do just as well, because,

* java.lang.String is final, so dynamic method invocation can
  be short-circuited.

* java.lang.String is magic: it has a special role in the
  language right down to the byte-code level. JITs can, and
  probably should, special case it.

I think it would be useful if people using JVMs with poor String
performance hassled the relevant vendors/maintainers and got them
to improve the situation.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Wed Jan 19 11:49:03 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Redecleration of Element
In-Reply-To: <000901bf625e$79a15f90$0801640a@novi.geografik.dk>
Message-ID: <000a01bf6272$df0f9f40$9bd65c8b@p300>

How about a simplistic approach - the root element defines the document
type.  Change the root element, you've just re-typed the doc.
Alternatively, ask what they want to achieve by doing this, then find a way
to achieve that same aim, but within the rules of XML.  In my experience,
most daft or difficult processes in IT are best tackled by looking for a
completely new method of achieving the same aim.

On the other hand, I think the XML world is going to see lots of doc
conversion, switching from one DTD to another.  Since everybody seems to
want to write their own DTD's, especially if they want to maintain their own
legacy data structures, everyone is going to have to do DTD conversion to
exchange data.  From this perspective you're really just converting a doc
from one DTD to another.


Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Dennis Thrysoe - GeoGrafik A/S
>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 9:21 AM
>To: xml-dev
>Subject: Redecleration of Element
>
>
>Hi,
>
>I am standing here with a legacy issue. A system was designed
>to be flexible
>be changing the "dataroot" element.
>
>This implies changing the documentroot element's defenition:
>
><!ELEMENT DOCROOT (A)>
>
>or sometimes
>
><!ELEMENT DOCROOT (B)>
>
>I need some help arguing against this practive, as I feel it
>is against the
>spirit of XML and declarative documents. Does anybody know of some
>litterature or a discussion of this anywhere?
>
>TIA,
>
>-dennis
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From jyjung at cse.konkuk.ac.kr  Wed Jan 19 12:01:27 2000
From: jyjung at cse.konkuk.ac.kr (=?ks_c_5601-1987?B?waTA58Cx?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: No subject
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From altorrecillas at cirsa.com  Wed Jan 19 12:13:10 2000
From: altorrecillas at cirsa.com (Angel Torrecillas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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From altorrecillas at cirsa.com  Wed Jan 19 12:13:04 2000
From: altorrecillas at cirsa.com (Angel Torrecillas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <01BF627E.CE3822D0.altorrecillas@cirsa.com>

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From altorrecillas at cirsa.com  Wed Jan 19 12:13:07 2000
From: altorrecillas at cirsa.com (Angel Torrecillas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <01BF627E.CC36AD80.altorrecillas@cirsa.com>

	unsubscribe

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From rmk5123 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu  Wed Jan 19 12:35:57 2000
From: rmk5123 at ritvax.isc.rit.edu (ross)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: ?Simple XML parser for Mac's
In-Reply-To: <003701bf61ef$c83a3880$bdacdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <B4AB19CE.C6F0%rmk5123@rit.edu>

Well... the first two I think of is Media Design In-Progress's emile and
emile lite (I haven't yet investigated what differentiated the two).

http://www.in-progress.com/emile/

Also, a good product-in-progress may be Sixpack:

http://www.trafficstudio.com/sixpack/

Hope this helped,

-Ross
-- 
Ross Karchner
editor@xmlonthemac.com

> From: Frank Boumphrey <bckman@ix.netcom.com>
> Reply-To: Frank Boumphrey <bckman@ix.netcom.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2000 15:08:25 -0500
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Cc: liz schreiber <liz@schreiber.lakeheadu.ca>
> Subject: ?Simple XML parser for Mac's
> 
> Canany one recommend an XML parser suitable for an entry level user on a
> Mac.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Frank
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to
> OASIS.
> 


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From eric.dudouet at actoll.com  Wed Jan 19 12:50:36 2000
From: eric.dudouet at actoll.com (DUDOUET Eric)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Stop the unsubscribe message !!
References: <01BF627E.CC36AD80.altorrecillas@cirsa.com>
Message-ID: <3885B10B.197F29EF@actoll.com>

Requests for unsubscription :
Just send the line to LISTSERV@listserv.heanet.ie

   UNSUBSCRIBE XML-L


Angel Torrecillas wrote:

>         unsubscribe
>
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--
Eric DUDOUET

ACTOLL
19 Av du GRANIER
38240 MEYLAN
FRANCE

tel : (033)-04-76-18-10-52
e-mail : eric.dudouet@actoll.com



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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Wed Jan 19 13:21:09 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: SAX2 and data types (was: Character Tugging)
In-Reply-To: <14468.30311.413627.294386@localhost.localdomain>
References: <14457.63067.584265.840876@localhost.localdomain> 	<Pine.LNX.4.10.10001172303180.22622-100000@cauchy.clarkevans.com> <14468.30311.413627.294386@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <m33druqjso.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* David Megginson
| 
| The SAX2 solution:
| 
|   interface MagicDataHandler
|   {
|     public void date (Date date) throws SAXException;
|     public void currency (Currency currency) throws SAXException;
|     public void integer (int integer) throws SAXException;
|   }
| 
| then
| 
|   SAXReader r = new MagicDataReader();
|   MagicDataHandler h = new MyMagicDataHandler();
|   try {
|     r.setProperty("http://www.foo.com/props/magic-data-handler", h);
|   } catch (SAXException e) {
|     System.err.println("Reader does not support a MagicDataHandler");
|     System.exit(-1);
|   }

The DT4DTD package has another interesting take on this:

<URL: http://www.extensibility.com/dt4dtd/ >
 
| Presumably, in place of characters() events, your client application
| would receive date, currency, and integer events.

I personally prefer this, and would like to implement something like
it on top of Python SAX. It would be especially nice in Python since
it's untyped, and so values would just arrive in the right type,
including attribute values.

| This would be an especially nice application for SAX2 filters, [...]

Definitely!
 
| Let me know if it looks like we've done this one right.

I think SAX2 (and SAX 1.0, for that matter) provides what is necessary
and leaves a reasonable space in which to implement something like
this.

--Lars M.


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From martind at netfolder.com  Wed Jan 19 13:21:16 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522D@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEAHEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Sabin,

Sabin said:
Remember that my original question was, 'Why is _application_
specific_ markup preferable to an _application_specific_ binary
wire protocol'.

XML encoding gets you a common generic format, but it doesn't
get you semantic transparency. So, sure, you'd be able to
parse the contents of XML rpc packets, but that doesn't mean
you'll be able to do anything interesting with them.

Didier replies:
Off course not in all cases. But, the fact that on some occasions you can
communicate with an object from something which is not an object (i.e. with
a browser) and that you can get the content of a message displayable can
indeed be useful. So, to use XML as a marshaling format, you gain more
versatility but you gained this with an increased usage of the bandwidth if
the transmission is in a compressed format. So, the best configuration seems
to be xml in compressed format over HTTP as a marshaling format. So, overall
it can be made better than strict binary marshaling.


Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From sb at metis.no  Wed Jan 19 14:17:20 2000
From: sb at metis.no (Steinar Bang)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: XML and database examples
Message-ID: <whembervrp.fsf@viffer.metis.no>

Right now I'm experimenting with estimating the DTD/schema of unknown
XML formats.  For this I have been searching the web for test data
which are actual examples of XML representation of database data.

Searches on Google, Alta Vista and Deja haven't given me any good
matches.  I wandered through the Oracle website,
	http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/
and found some promising examples in some white papers.  However when
I tried marking them for copy nothing happened... the examples were
GIFs. 

I've found one example on
	http://www.informatik.fh-wiesbaden.de/~turau/DB2XML/examples.html

Does anyone know of a public repository of test data where I could
find more?

Thanx!


- Steinar

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From murali at ntexchtx.hq.ileaf.com  Wed Jan 19 14:58:34 2000
From: murali at ntexchtx.hq.ileaf.com (Murali)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <D06A541E0A87D311950100105AA1D09302894B@NTEXCHTX>

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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 15:07:16 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: String interning
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 10:24:14 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675217@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <ug0vuf6cm.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Toby> Toby Speight
Toby> <URL:mailto:Toby.Speight@streapadair.freeserve.co.uk>
Miles> Miles Sabin <URL:mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk>


0> In article <uzou4ze5y.fsf@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>, Toby wrote:

Toby>     boolean namesAreInterned =
Toby>         xmlReader.getFeature("http://xml.org/sax/features/interned-names");
Toby>
Toby>     if (namesAreInterned)
Toby>         xmlReader = new SAXInterner(xmlReader);


0> In article
0> <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675217@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>,
0> Miles wrote:

Miles> But shouldn't the marked line read,
Miles>
Miles>  if (!namesAreInterned)
Miles>    xmlReader = new SAXInterner(xmlReader);


Yes.  Sorry for the screwup.

-- 


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From rtc at unitec.mx  Wed Jan 19 15:36:06 2000
From: rtc at unitec.mx (Ricardo Toledo Chavez)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:21 2004
Subject: (no subject)
Message-ID: <3885DA9F.669880E0@unitec.mx>

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From cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr  Wed Jan 19 15:49:40 2000
From: cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr (POTHIN Cedric)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
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From cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr  Wed Jan 19 15:50:02 2000
From: cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr (POTHIN Cedric)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
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From vverma at quark.com  Wed Jan 19 15:55:15 2000
From: vverma at quark.com (vibha verma)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
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From JTauber at bowstreet.com  Wed Jan 19 15:56:22 2000
From: JTauber at bowstreet.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D4@mail.bowstreet.com>


[...]
> Oops!  Look like I just invented Java.  Any venture 
> capitalists listening?

Actually, when I was an intern at Sun Labs in 1996, I proposed, along with
another researcher, a project to build a super-slim browser that was
essentially a Java run-time environment with SGML support. The UI and
everything would be downloaded as SGML and relevant helper classes.

Needless to say it didn't eventuate. If we'd waited a year we would have had
XML instead of SGML and it probably would have taken off.

James
--
James Tauber               jtauber@bowstreet.com
Director XML Technology    www.jtauber.com
Bowstreet Software, Inc.   www.bowstreet.com

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From Steve.Tolkin at fmr.com  Wed Jan 19 15:56:48 2000
From: Steve.Tolkin at fmr.com (Tolkin, Steve)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Why didn't I get a digest today, and why wasn't my yesterday's po
	sting archived?
Message-ID: <4BFA6709C997D311B3E80008C7917E740BCC13@MSGBOS679NTS.fmr.com>

Yesterday I posted a message to the group with subject:
CamelCase names for XML elements vs. property names for Java beans

Today I did not get in my email a digest of message from the group.
Could it be because the digest was too large for my local mail handler?
(It would need to be bigger than 1 Megabyte.)
It looks like there are very many messages per day, which is why I chose the
digest format.
Have other people had problems getting the digest?

	I went to the archive site at
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
	and there I see one response to my message, but not my message
itself?!
	How did that happen?

	Also, is this list reflected to a Usenet newsgroup, so that I can
follow treads of interest
	to me using e.g. gnus?

	Due to the nature of these problems it is reasonable to reply to my
email address
	directly, in addition to or instead of the XML_DEV mailing list.

Thanks,
Steve
---
Steve Tolkin          steve.tolkin@fmr.com      617-563-0516 
Fidelity Investments   82 Devonshire St. R24D    Boston MA 02109
There is nothing so practical as a good theory.  Comments are by me, 
not Fidelity Investments, its subsidiaries or affiliates.


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From cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr  Wed Jan 19 15:59:33 2000
From: cedric.pothin at cegetel.fr (POTHIN Cedric)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <BBAE4DA2EE0CD3119AFE0008C7FAD61904397B6C@orphee.sfr.com>

unsubscribe

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Wed Jan 19 16:00:34 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522D@odin.cromwellmedia.
 co.uk>
Message-ID: <200001191600.LAA01533@hesketh.net>

At 10:14 AM 1/19/00 +0000, Miles Sabin wrote:
>XML encoding gets you a common generic format, but it doesn't
>get you semantic transparency. So, sure, you'd be able to
>parse the contents of XML rpc packets, but that doesn't mean
>you'll be able to do anything interesting with them.

It's true that semantic transparency is one of those holy grails that
haven't yet been reached.

On the other hand, transforming XML from flavor to flavor is a lot easier
(in my experience) than transforming binary streams.   You might want to
check out JXML's Quick (http://www.jxml.com) for one approach that's
keeping this capability in mind.

XML buys you flexibility.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From JTauber at bowstreet.com  Wed Jan 19 16:02:57 2000
From: JTauber at bowstreet.com (James Tauber)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>

At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>The future is outside the web browser.

Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser.

I'm reminded of this everytime I use Microsoft Money. Local and network
information is pretty much seamlessly brought together and presented
essentially via a browser embedded in the Money application.

James
--
James Tauber               jtauber@bowstreet.com
Director XML Technology    www.jtauber.com
Bowstreet Software, Inc.   www.bowstreet.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From hpyle at agora.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 16:08:25 2000
From: hpyle at agora.co.uk (hpyle@agora.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: XML and database examples
Message-ID: <8025686B.00583302.00@mailhost.agora.co.uk>



> Right now I'm experimenting with estimating the DTD/schema of unknown
> XML formats.  For this I have been searching the web for test data
> which are actual examples of XML representation of database data.

I came across this one today; XML renditions of Lotus Notes/Domino databases'
internal structures.

http://notes.net/dxl

I ran the export tools against one of the smaller R5 help files, and you can see
the result at http://www.agora.co.uk:1080/xml (zip 100k, expands to 1mb) - I've
not yet parsed this with anything except IE5.

-Hugh
hpyle@agora.co.uk



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From john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 16:16:16 2000
From: john.aldridge at informatix.co.uk (John Aldridge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522D@odin.cromwellmedia.
 co.uk>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000119161531.00b83eb0@mailhost>

At 10:14 19/01/00 -0000, Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:
>Remember that my original question was, 'Why is _application_
>specific_ markup preferable to an _application_specific_ binary
>wire protocol'.

It's better because (for example) I can write an _application specific_
XSLT stylesheet without having to re-invent all the parsing, pattern
matching and other stuff done by the generic tools.

Whether that's _enough_ of an incentive in this particular case is another
matter.
-- 
Cheers,
John

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de  Wed Jan 19 16:20:53 2000
From: obecker at informatik.hu-berlin.de (Oliver Becker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Your Message
Message-ID: <200001191620.RAA05173@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de>

Please ... you can't unsubscribe this way!

> unsubscribe

You just bother all the list members.

> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to 
OASIS.

I hope the transfer to OASIS will quickly get finished ...
Be patient meanwhile ;-)

Oliver


/-------------------------------------------------------------------\
|  ob|do        Dipl.Inf. Oliver Becker                             |
|  --+--        E-Mail: obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de             |
|  op|qo        WWW:    http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~obecker |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 16:22:00 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Simple XML conformance
In-Reply-To: <200001172022.PAA10423@hesketh.net>
References: <200001172021.PAA01847@locke.ccil.org>
 <E129xwe-000CVb-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <E12Axrm-000Bnd-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

At 03:22 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
>At 03:21 PM 1/17/00 -0500, John Cowan wrote:
>>Peter Murray-Rust scripsit:
>>
>>> 	- tool threw a fatal error because <!DOCTYPE was missing
>>
>>The XML Rec does not forbid a parser to treat validation errors as fatal.
>>
>>> 	- REC-xml and DOM specify DTD but spec.dtd is not mounted
>>
>>Non-validating parsers that read DTDs are entitled to get upset
>>if the DTD cannot be read.
>>
>>> 	- several tools regard the absence of a DTD as a fatal error (i.e. they
>>> appear to be validating by default).
>>
>>Again, that behvaior is not forbidden.
>
>I don't think Peter's point is that these behaviors are forbidden, but
>rather that they make interoperability difficult.  Perhaps a few more
>things should have been forbidden. 

This is exactly the point! We are in slight danger of going back towards
the problems
of SGML ("you didn't add the SGML declaration????"). There are clearly
times when 
validation is required and incorrect XML instances should throw fatal
errors. The main 
problems seems to be that:
	- there are potentially five categories of parsers (from the OASIS/NIST
document which
I had read, and found extremely useful :-)
	- most parsers do not explicitly announce which category they fall into
	- some parsers additionally modify their behaviour by what is presented to
them (e.g 
		<!DOCTYPE present? external DTD subset declared?
	- there is no easy way of switching the behaviour of some parsers (i.e.
you have to 
		use a validating parser or a non-validating one explicitly.
	- some tools contain parser functionality which is unclear

I have been through this with SGML and failed to win converts. It seems not
unreasonable
most tools should be able to cope with DOCTYPE-less documents. Otherwise we
get
back to the scenario:
	"This XML file only processable with a parser of type X"

and that is very difficult to present to newcomers. 

Simon wrote:
>
>Peter wrote:
>>Henry and I are obviously keen to show that XML is simple to use with the
>>correct tools and that interoperability is achievable. 
>
>I'd love to show that as well, but lately I seem to be writing books that
>detail the possible pitfalls and suggest strategies for avoiding them
>rather than claiming XML makes interoperability easy.

I agree with this - unfortunately. As we move into the area of complex
documents
with multiple namespaces and no formal DTD, surely some of the current
range of 
parsers will have problems? Do not most XSL documents fall into this category?

>
>Simon St.Laurent
>XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
>Building XML Applications
>Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
>Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
>http://www.simonstl.com
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
> 

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.



From ldodds at ingenta.com  Wed Jan 19 16:22:52 2000
From: ldodds at ingenta.com (Leigh Dodds)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Why didn't I get a digest today, and why wasn't my yesterday's posting archived?
In-Reply-To: <4BFA6709C997D311B3E80008C7917E740BCC13@MSGBOS679NTS.fmr.com>
Message-ID: <002001bf6299$619905c0$ab20268a@pc-lrd.bath.ac.uk>

> Yesterday I posted a message to the group with subject:
> CamelCase names for XML elements vs. property names for Java beans

Your message did get through to the list.

> I went to the archive site at http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
> and there I see one response to my message, but not my message
> itself?! How did that happen?

Its not the first time this has happened. Messages go missing quite
often. I'm hoping that when the list finally transitions to OASIS
some of these issues will be solved.

I tend to notice them more than most people as I have to dig
around in the archives on a daily basis to produce eclectic [1].

I was had been hoping to link to your mail today, but was unable
to because of this problem.

eclectic can't cover every mail on the list, but I try to capture
the main topics/viewpoints. (those of you who have just unsuccessfully
unsubscribed might be interested in this too ;)

Cheers,

L.

[1]. http://weblogs.userland.com/eclectic



xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 16:23:27 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy>

> Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser

I totally agree.

We've seen our sales go up exponentially now that we're offering content
management inside the web browser, with all its limitations, it's the
preferred method of editing, even though the editor sucks! (I remember
fondly things like Find and Replace.)

The challenge is to find ways to intimately connect the browser with desktop
apps, if we want the user experience to evolve beyond what browsers can do.
That's why Microsoft's decision to bake the browser into the OS was such a
good one. It's been so hard to get Apple to follow suit.

Dave

http://www.userland.com/


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 16:33:43 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Invited XML-DEVers [was RE: Microsoft's responce to XML.com
  article]
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000117141830.04d99bd0@216.65.70.29>
References: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B34B@world.cinnober.com>
Message-ID: <E12Ay38-000OWd-0V@anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net>

At 02:20 PM 1/17/00 -0500, Ann Navarro wrote:
>At 08:05 PM 1/17/00 +0100, =?windows-1252?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?= wrote:
>>> Become an invited expert. 
>>
>>This is probably told somewhere else, but I'm still asking. How to become an
>>invited expert? Not that I'll be one ever... :)
>
>It can happen a variety of ways. The WG chair or another participant may
>know of someone's expertise on a particular topic, and suggest that the
>individual be contacted and invited. 
>
>Someone may demonstrate appropriate expertise on a lists such as these, and
>be invited.

Indeed. I can think of several people who have made very valuable
contributions
on XML-DEV and have subsequently been asked to be help on W3C activities
and groups.

An important aspect has often been the commitment and ability to support
the community by
(say) contributing code, writing position papers (some have become W3C
Notes), running 
mailing lists etc. 

In a Zen-like manner, those who strive to become invited probably don't :-)
 
	P.


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 16:35:36 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853D92E7F@SENMAIL3>

Desktop.com is an example of the start of "everything in the browser".

Yep, and using things such as XMLRPC and SOAP allows this to be quite easily
done.
Indeed, I'm in the middle of a development which builds on desktop.com and
used various XML technologies (and erm IE5 browser) to put a windows 2000
type environment in the browser.

Obviously, the "future" may also be considered to be on servers, but for a
interactive point of view, the browser will eventually handle everything (i
hope).

cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Dave Winer [SMTP:dave@userland.com]
> Sent:	19 January 2000 16:23
> To:	James Tauber; xml-dev
> Subject:	Re: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> > Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser
> 
> I totally agree.
> 
> We've seen our sales go up exponentially now that we're offering content
> management inside the web browser, with all its limitations, it's the
> preferred method of editing, even though the editor sucks! (I remember
> fondly things like Find and Replace.)
> 
> The challenge is to find ways to intimately connect the browser with
> desktop
> apps, if we want the user experience to evolve beyond what browsers can
> do.
> That's why Microsoft's decision to bake the browser into the OS was such a
> good one. It's been so hard to get Apple to follow suit.
> 
> Dave
> 
> http://www.userland.com/
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.


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From Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr  Wed Jan 19 16:46:57 2000
From: Sophie.Mabilat at apitech.fr (Sophie MABILAT)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Questions of a beginner...
Message-ID: <B1C8643B3AB0D21180250000C0B179CD05B715@JUPITER>

Hi,
I would like to transform an XML document produced by the command rs.Save
Doc, adPersistXML (so with XML Reduced Data format) in an other XML document
which only contain elements.

So I would like to transform this :
<datas>
	<row colonne1="value11" colonne2="value12" colonne i="value1i".../>
	<row colonne1="value21" colonne2="value22" colonne i="value2i".../>
	<row colonne1="value31" colonne2="value32" colonne i="value3i".../>
	...
</datas>

in this :

<datas>
	<row>
		<colonne1>value11</colonne1>
		<colonne2>value12</colonne2>
		<colonnei>value1i</colonnei>
		...
	</row>
	<row>
		<colonne1>value21</colonne1>
		<colonne2>value22</colonne2>
		<colonnei>value2i</colonnei>
		...
	</row>
	<row>
		<colonne1>value31</colonne1>
		<colonne2>value32</colonne2>
		<colonnei>value3i</colonnei>
		...
	</row>
	...
</datas>

I succeed to make this transformation using the DOM. My problems are :
- is an other programmed transformation using the DOM the best solution to
adapt the schema description generated during the save operation ?
Original schema :
<s:Schema id="RowsetSchema">
	<s:ElementType name="row" content="eltOnly" rs:CommandTimeout="30"
rs:updatable="true" rs:ReshapeName="DSRowset1">
		<s:AttributeType name="Colonne1" rs:number="1"
rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple" rs:basetable="TableExemple"
rs:basecolumn="Colonne1" 			rs:keycolumn="true"
rs:autoincrement="true">
			<s:datatype dt:type="int" dt:maxLength="4"
rs:precision="10" rs:fixedlength="true" rs:maybenull="false"/>
		</s:AttributeType>
		<s:AttributeType name="Colonne2" rs:number="2"
rs:writeunknown="true" rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple"
rs:basetable="TableExemple"
rs:basecolumn="Colonne2">
			<s:datatype dt:type="string" dt:maxLength="20"
rs:maybenull="false"/>
		</s:AttributeType>
		<s:AttributeType name="Colonne3" rs:number="3"
rs:writeunknown="true" rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple"
rs:basetable="TableExemple"
rs:basecolumn="Colonne3">
			<s:datatype dt:type="string" dt:maxLength="10"
rs:maybenull="false"/>
		</s:AttributeType>
		<s:AttributeType name="Colonne4" rs:number="4"
rs:nullable="true" rs:writeunknown="true" rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple"
rs:basetable="TableExemple" 		rs:basecolumn="Colonne4">
			<s:datatype dt:type="string" dt:maxLength="30"/>
		</s:AttributeType>
		<s:AttributeType name="Colonne5" rs:number="5"
rs:nullable="true" rs:writeunknown="true" rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple"
rs:basetable="TableExemple" 		rs:basecolumn="Colonne5">
			<s:datatype dt:type="dateTime" rs:dbtype="timestamp"
dt:maxLength="16" rs:scale="3" rs:precision="23" rs:fixedlength="true"/>
		</s:AttributeType>
		<s:extends type="rs:rowbase"/>
	</s:ElementType>
</s:Schema>
- is this schema description right to the final document ?
Final schema :
<Schema name="ShemaNomTableOuVue"
	xmlns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:xml-data"
        	xmlns:dt="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:datatypes">
 
 	<ElementType name="colonne1" rs:number="1"
rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple" rs:basetable="TableExemple"
rs:basecolumn="colonne1" rs:keycolumn="true" 	rs:autoincrement="true">
		<s:datatype dt:type="int" dt:maxLength="4" rs:precision="10"
rs:fixedlength="true" rs:maybenull="false"/>
	</ElementType>
    	<ElementType name="colonne2" rs:number="2" rs:writeunknown="true"
rs:basecatalog="BaseExemple" rs:basetable="TableExemple"
rs:basecolumn="colonne2">
		<s:datatype dt:type="string" dt:maxLength="20"
rs:maybenull="false"/>
	</ElementType>
    ...
    <ElementType name="row" content="eltOnly" model="closed">
        <element type="colonne1" minOcurs="1" maxOccurs="1"/>
        <element type="colonne2" minOcurs="1" maxOccurs="1"/>
        ...
    </ElementType>
    
    <ElementType name="datas" content="eltOnly" model="closed">
      	<element type="row" minOcurs="1" maxOccurs="*"/>
    </ElementType>
</Schema>
- how to add by programmation a XML version declaration, then the schema
part and the datas one in a same XML document ?
- how can I verify programmaticaly than my datas part is valid according to
my description schema ?

Please help me...
Sophie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sophie MABILAT
Sophie.Mabilat@apitech.fr

APITECH 113, rue Marietton 69009 LYON FRANCE
Tél. : 04 78 43 49 30   Fax : 04 78 83 47 86
www.apitech.fr
www.zipbee.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 19 16:53:09 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000119085137.01404170@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:23 AM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
>> Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser
>
>I totally agree.

Yup, and for one reason: end-users want it.  Len may be right that 
VB is way more convenient for the *programmer*, but the people of the
world have voted with their feet, and they're just not gonna go back to
custom-built clients. -Tim

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 19 16:54:11 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: XML and database examples
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000119084916.014ca610@pop.intergate.ca>

At 03:17 PM 1/19/00 +0100, Steinar Bang wrote:
>Right now I'm experimenting with estimating the DTD/schema of unknown
>XML formats.  For this I have been searching the web for test data
>which are actual examples of XML representation of database data.

There is one example, and rather simple, but of interesting size, at
http://dmoz.org/rdf - definitely an example of a database dump.
 -Tim

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From ldelgado at norma.net  Wed Jan 19 17:06:55 2000
From: ldelgado at norma.net (Lucio Nomy Delgado Vasquez)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
In-Reply-To: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D4@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBLJOCCKENPFLGIMDIAEICCHAA.ldelgado@norma.net>

unsubscribe

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> James Tauber
> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:54 AM
> To: 'David Megginson'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
>
>
>
> [...]
> > Oops!  Look like I just invented Java.  Any venture
> > capitalists listening?
>
> Actually, when I was an intern at Sun Labs in 1996, I proposed, along with
> another researcher, a project to build a super-slim browser that was
> essentially a Java run-time environment with SGML support. The UI and
> everything would be downloaded as SGML and relevant helper classes.
>
> Needless to say it didn't eventuate. If we'd waited a year we
> would have had
> XML instead of SGML and it probably would have taken off.
>
> James
> --
> James Tauber               jtauber@bowstreet.com
> Director XML Technology    www.jtauber.com
> Bowstreet Software, Inc.   www.bowstreet.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for
> transfer to OASIS.
>
>


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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk  Wed Jan 19 17:21:37 2000
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: ?Simple XML parser for Mac's
In-Reply-To: <B4AB19CE.C6F0%rmk5123@rit.edu>
References: <B4AB19CE.C6F0%rmk5123@rit.edu>
Message-ID: <v04220810b4aba2a5695f@[155.198.224.86]>

>Well... the first two I think of is Media Design In-Progress's emile and
>emile lite (I haven't yet investigated what differentiated the two).
>
>http://www.in-progress.com/emile/
>
>Also, a good product-in-progress may be Sixpack:
>
>http://www.trafficstudio.com/sixpack/


Also Morphon: http://www.lunatech.com/products/morphon-xml-editor/

a pure  Java product (sixpack is I think visual Basic ), which requires
JBindery to define the classpath etc etc. I have used this combination
with much success


Henry Rzepa. +44 (0)20 7594 5774 (Office) +44 (0)20 7594 5804 (Fax)
Dept. Chemistry, Imperial College, London, SW7  2AY, UK. 
http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/

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From klarlund at research.att.com  Wed Jan 19 17:26:58 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?
Message-ID: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>

A so-called "last call" working draft has been issued by the W3C for XML
information set. Apparently, this draft has not provoked a lot of
discussion.  The draft
solves the problem: what is the mathematical object that an XML document
represents?
The answer is a "tree" defined according to some rather natural rules.

Although the document is cleanly written, it introduces some very cumbersome
language,
which will almost guarantee that future XML specifications will become
unnecessarily hard to read (just look at the current XML Schema document,
part 1).

Would it not be in the interest of the XML community to encourage the
authors use
language that mortals understand (nodes, trees, etc)? I don't believe the
Information Set in its current formulation should be accepted.  Am I alone
in this belief?
If not, then we might perhaps be able to convince the authors, who have
otherwise
done a fine job, to tidy up the language and the connection to DOM.

/Nils

PS: below I have enclosed the e-mail that I sent to the official discussion
list yesterday
(http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-infoset-comments/)

 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------
Subject: XML infoset: please don't


Dear working group members:

XML Information Set terminology unfortunately seems to be having
adverse effects.  I just started rereading the XML Schema draft and
choked right away on the sentence:

  "An element information item is the component of an infoset which
   corresponds to an element."

No one should be forced to write like that! Another example,

   "XML Schema: an XML element information item which, along with its
   descendants, satisfies all the Constraints on Schemas in this
   specification"

This should have been:

   "XML Schema: an element node which satisfies all the Constraints on
   Schemas."

These and many more examples are solid road blocks to the furthering
of XML; personally, they don't make my blood boil, but among the
public, some are enraged (see recent mailings to comp.text.xml).

I then tried to comprehend what an element information item is by
reading the XML Information Set note.  Nothing really deep it turns
out: it's a node in a tree representation of an XML document.  My
objection is that there are now two (at least) different tree models
of XML: DOM and XML information sets.  They are both justified, but I
believe they should be unified in what is (or should be) an obvious
way:

* DOM, being the finer model, is the starting point; the tree model is
  something any programmer can understand, and the most detailed one.

* DOM-I are trees gotten from trees in DOM by a mapping that convert
  CDATA to text and applies concatenate text nodes (by using
  normalize()) (and a couple of other tricks, more complicated it
  shouldn't be).

Canonical XML can now be explained by a simple transformation from
DOM-I.

I would encourage that the XML Information Set be substantially
simplified.  Please put stakes through verbiage like "XML element
information item."  And, XML Information Set should be explainable in
one paragraph departing from DOM.  Then, make this paragraph a part of
DOM2 (along with canonical XML, perhaps).

Thanks,

/Nils



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From martind at netfolder.com  Wed Jan 19 17:37:56 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEBCEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi James,

James said:
Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser.

I'm reminded of this everytime I use Microsoft Money. Local and network
information is pretty much seamlessly brought together and presented
essentially via a browser embedded in the Money application.

Didier replies:
I agree with you on this James, and to add on this. Here are some fuel for
thought

a) The Mozilla browser will be also available as an XPCOM and a DCOM
component. Furthermore it will have the same interface as the actual
Microsoft browser component. Thus, as you said, actually, the Microsoft
browser component can be used in applications. In a near future (I hope) we
will be able to do the same thing with the Mozilla component. Hence having
the choice of either the Mozilla or the Microsoft component browser. Both
have the same identical DCOM interface, so to use one or the other is simply
to change the object's ID in the host code.

b) In a near future, Adobe will release a SVG component. As probably a few
of us have already made the inference, an xml document could, with XSLT, be
transformed into HTML as well as into SVG. Or an HTML parser could convert
the HTML elements into SVG for display. So, that's an other component that
can be embedded in applications for rendition (and in fact get a lot more
than with HTML - believe me - I am playing with the alpha version of the
component since two months and I am still amazed of all it can do).

c) The PDF reader is also a component that can be embedded in an
application, with the right tool to convert XML into PDF, the document could
be displayed.

And so on and so forth....

bottom line, we have the choice of the rendition format, plenty of
components to choose from to embed in applications. The problem though? mind
share, money, mastering the distribution channels, resistance to changes,
etc...

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk  Wed Jan 19 17:37:44 2000
From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Unsuccessful Unsubscribes
Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA2318035A9B39@FL-EXCHANGE-03>

To whom it may concern

Assuming that nothing has changed since the good old days when these
instructions were included at the bottom of each message:

The secret formula that allows you to escape from XML-DEV is:

send an e-mail to  majordomo@ic.ac.uk  with the following message in the
body:

unsubscribe xml-dev

Bye now

Andy B.


-----Original Message-----
From: Oliver Becker [mailto:obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de]
Sent: 19 January 2000 16:20
To: cedric.pothin@cegetel.fr; rtc@unitec.mx
Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Your Message


Please ... you can't unsubscribe this way!

> unsubscribe

You just bother all the list members.

> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to 
OASIS.

I hope the transfer to OASIS will quickly get finished ...
Be patient meanwhile ;-)

Oliver


/-------------------------------------------------------------------\
|  ob|do        Dipl.Inf. Oliver Becker                             |
|  --+--        E-Mail: obecker@informatik.hu-berlin.de             |
|  op|qo        WWW:    http://www.informatik.hu-berlin.de/~obecker |
\-------------------------------------------------------------------/


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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Wed Jan 19 17:50:40 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: XML and database examples
References: <whembervrp.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <012c01bf62a6$7d095500$3b652382@us.oracle.com>

For our online, live demos (not trying to show off
*bulk* but various interesting ways to combine
SQL, XML, XSLT and the Web using our XSQL Servlet
and underlying XML/XSLT components) please see:

http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/demo/demo1.htm

And visit our online discussion forum for Oracle XML
specific questions if you like:

http://technet.oracle.com/support/htdocs/discussions.htm

_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team

----- Original Message -----
From: "Steinar Bang" <sb@metis.no>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 6:17 AM
Subject: XML and database examples


| Right now I'm experimenting with estimating the DTD/schema of unknown
| XML formats.  For this I have been searching the web for test data
| which are actual examples of XML representation of database data.
|
| Searches on Google, Alta Vista and Deja haven't given me any good
| matches.  I wandered through the Oracle website,
| http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/
| and found some promising examples in some white papers.  However when
| I tried marking them for copy nothing happened... the examples were
| GIFs.
|
| I've found one example on
| http://www.informatik.fh-wiesbaden.de/~turau/DB2XML/examples.html
|
| Does anyone know of a public repository of test data where I could
| find more?
|
| Thanx!
|
|
| - Steinar
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
|
|


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From francis at redrice.com  Wed Jan 19 17:48:52 2000
From: francis at redrice.com (Francis Norton)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.6.32.20000119161531.00b83eb0@mailhost>
Message-ID: <3885F853.2A8403BB@redrice.com>

John Aldridge wrote:
> 
> At 10:14 19/01/00 -0000, Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:
> >Remember that my original question was, 'Why is _application_
> >specific_ markup preferable to an _application_specific_ binary
> >wire protocol'.
> 
> It's better because (for example) I can write an _application specific_
> XSLT stylesheet without having to re-invent all the parsing, pattern
> matching and other stuff done by the generic tools.
> 

It's also way better for the kind of business I do, which involves
building web-facing, cross-platform components (for www.ie.com). We'll
typically be transacting application-specific data with components
written by other people, from other companies, in other languages, on
other platforms. "Er, which byte first did you want those integers?". I
used to allow between a third and a half of the development time for
sorting this out. The first time I read about XML I knew we needed it.
When we finally agreed with a component partner to use XML buffers,
specified (manually) by a DCD schema, the data parsed correctly first
time. 

Naturally this was promptly followed by us being given dumps of the
entire partner data model - designed without the help of any known
design principle - to extract data from. "It's XML, it must be simple!".
Tried asking for a schema but we knew that was ridiculous. Ended up
pre-processing it with XSLT (thanks, Mike Kay and James Clarke!) which
demonstrates another advantage of app-specific XML - the process would
have been even nastier and far slower with comma delimited, which was
the original dump format.

Francis.

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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Wed Jan 19 18:32:35 2000
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsi
	der?
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2783FA@MDYNYCMSX1>

>Would it not be in the interest of the XML community to encourage
>the authors use language that mortals understand (nodes, trees,
>etc)? I don't believe the Information Set in its current
>formulation should be accepted.  Am I alone in this belief?  If
>not, then we might perhaps be able to convince the authors, who
>have otherwise done a fine job, to tidy up the language and the
>connection to DOM.

"Write more clearly" is easy to say, but a vague point for debate, and no
one would argue against it. I would suggest copying one of the more
difficult paragraphs into an xml-dev posting and following it with a
suggested revision. This would propose specific replacement terms and give a
more concrete starting point for discussion of why the authors chose the
terms they did and which proposed replacement terms work better.

>(just look at the current XML Schema document, part 1).

I have one suggestion here: write the whole thing in English! I'll bet the
Vatican has published documents with less latin in them. A given latin term
may be more concise than its English equivalent, but people who don't know
latin shouldn't be shut out of understanding the spec.

semper ubi sub ubi,

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob           <bob@  
snee.com>  "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 19 20:01:48 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net>

Dave Winer wrote:
> 
> The challenge is to find ways to intimately connect the browser with desktop
> apps, if we want the user experience to evolve beyond what browsers can do.
> That's why Microsoft's decision to bake the browser into the OS was such a
> good one. It's been so hard to get Apple to follow suit.

Because Apple already understands this.  What will be more interesting 
and useful is when it doesn't matter if I work in the apple or wintel 
frameworks.  As content is integrated with code, the costs skyrocket.  
So, how intimate a connection can your customers afford and do they 
realize the long terms costs?

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 19 20:02:13 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000119085137.01404170@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3886164B.7DCA@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 08:23 AM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
> >> Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser
> >
> >I totally agree.
> 
> Yup, and for one reason: end-users want it.  Len may be right that
> VB is way more convenient for the *programmer*, but the people of the
> world have voted with their feet, and they're just not gonna go back to
> custom-built clients. -Tim

That contradicts what we see in our business.  The inefficiency, 
slowness, security issues, costs of lifecycle maintenance and initial 
costs of development make it still somewhat impractical for large 
and complex applications.  Fitch & Mather only proves that the
interactivity 
of multiple modules is painful, the state maintenance is painful, the 
reliability across versions is low and the standards process that 
was to ameliorate these issues is inadequate and often produces specs
that 
are baroque and difficult to implement.

Sales?  Well, one can at most times sell anything to someone.  Can 
they afford it?  It is the cost of the content that should be 
getting more attention.

Now, is the web browser object useful?  Yes and central, but 
not as a substitute for the operating system.  The future for 
new applications development is outside that and should be 
else that object becomes MacInAWintel.  Not a pretty thought.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 19 20:01:45 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <38861390.29D4@hiwaay.net>

James Tauber wrote:
> 
> At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >The future is outside the web browser.
> 
> Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser.
> 
> I'm reminded of this everytime I use Microsoft Money. Local and network
> information is pretty much seamlessly brought together and presented
> essentially via a browser embedded in the Money application.

I can't argue that in the Microsoft framework, the web browser 
object has centrality, and that is very useful.  Embedding it 
in a form has given me many advantages.   It is a neat general 
rendering container (likes lots of formats) and it has a 
reasonably regular API.

But it is in new applications, particularly one which don't 
need XHTML, that I see a different future.   For these, RealMedia 
is an outstanding model.  I see more of this as developers 
become better versed at working with services and applying XML to 
lighter objects that don't require XHTML rendering.

len



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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 20:30:13 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>

OK, here's the deal. I'm a web developer who uses desktop computers to
create for the web. That's all I care about as far as software is concerned.
I spend half my day using apps other than a web browser. My interest is in
making those apps work as seamlessly with the web as possible. In practice
that means reducing the steps to get my job done. That's why editing in the
web browser is so satisfying. See a mistake on a web page, click Edit This
Page, make the correction, click on Submit. It can't get any simpler than
that. This algorithm repeats in every context. It's just like Undo was in
the early days of graphic apps. The next step is to wire in Notepad,
Simpletext and Emacs, but the next step after that is to bring the web
browser into the text editing tools to erase the last seam. Microsoft was
barking up the right tree, not too many people get this yet. Even on
Scripting News where I've been writing about it for two years, people still
think HTML rendering is a thing separate from using a computer. To ignore
the web browser is to ignore where most of the creativity and intellect are
going these days. That's the other reason I do the web. Without a web
browser there are no web sites. Sorry for rambling, hope this makes sense to
someone out there. Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Len Bullard" <cbullard@hiwaay.net>
To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
Cc: "James Tauber" <JTauber@bowstreet.com>; "xml-dev" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 11:45 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> Dave Winer wrote:
> >
> > The challenge is to find ways to intimately connect the browser with
desktop
> > apps, if we want the user experience to evolve beyond what browsers can
do.
> > That's why Microsoft's decision to bake the browser into the OS was such
a
> > good one. It's been so hard to get Apple to follow suit.
>
> Because Apple already understands this.  What will be more interesting
> and useful is when it doesn't matter if I work in the apple or wintel
> frameworks.  As content is integrated with code, the costs skyrocket.
> So, how intimate a connection can your customers afford and do they
> realize the long terms costs?
>
> len
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From sb at metis.no  Wed Jan 19 20:56:45 2000
From: sb at metis.no (Steinar Bang)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: "Thomas B. Passin"'s message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:47:47 -0500"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <004d01bf6238$5e76d540$342a08d1@tomshp>
Message-ID: <whzou2ouwk.fsf@viffer.metis.no>

>>>>> "Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@idsonline.com>:

> XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA

Hm... that really depends on your definition of "lighter-weight"...

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 20:56:49 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:22 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net> <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <039001bf62bf$ae0ee2f0$1918ccce@murphy>

More thoughts along these lines. I read Elliotte Harold's quotes from 1999,
and took note of the quote that said that Microsoft and Netscape got
together and decided that HTML had evolved as far as it could. I sighed
deeeeeeply on hearing that. There are still some quick-hit tags missing in
HTML, like <include>, that would zoom the web to the next level. We know
about the JavaScript hack, a <script> object that returns a writeln
statement that writes the HTML you want to include, but this doesn't work
properly in all browsers (same old story). HTML has not reached the end of
its useful life, quite the opposite, last year we figured a lot of things
out, I see no slowdown this year. Also check out Weblogs.Com, HTML from top
to bottom. Not bad for something that has no evolution left in it. ;-> Dave


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From klarlund at research.att.com  Wed Jan 19 21:20:05 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?
References: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F2783FA@MDYNYCMSX1>
Message-ID: <012301bf62c2$59f88560$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>

> "Write more clearly" is easy to say, but a vague point for debate, and no
> one would argue against it. 

I did not say that the writing was not clear; in fact, I said the
opposite.  I am, however, unhappy with the terminology introduced,
which is needlessly artificial.  It's bound to irritate.

Also, I tend to believe that the publication of this abstract model
should be postponed until the point where it can be explained by a
simply-stated simplification of DOM concepts.

But the most important issue is to cast the definitions in terms
people can understand (I and others looked at the document several
times before I even began to grasp what it was about).

Consider the introductory phrase:

  "This document specifies an abstract data set called the XML
   information set (Infoset), a description of the information available
   in a well-formed XML document [XML]."

Information? This word is much too overloaded. And what is an abstract
data set? So write, I'd suggest:

"This document explains how a canonical labeled tree, called the XML
tree, can be associated to any XML document.  The XML tree is a
straightforward mathematical abstraction that does not distinguish
between inconsequential differences in the concrete, character-based
XML syntax.

Then "attribute information item" becomes "attribute node",
etc.---something that's imminently understandable as demonstrated by
James Clark et al.

/Nils



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 19 21:30:46 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net> <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net>

Dave Winer wrote:
> 
> OK, here's the deal. I'm a web developer who uses desktop computers to
> create for the web. That's all I care about as far as software is concerned.

Always good to specify a target market.

> I spend half my day using apps other than a web browser. My interest is in
> making those apps work as seamlessly with the web as possible. In practice
> that means reducing the steps to get my job done. That's why editing in the
> web browser is so satisfying. See a mistake on a web page, click Edit This
> Page, make the correction, click on Submit. It can't get any simpler than
> that. 

WYSIWYG is simpler than that.

> This algorithm repeats in every context. It's just like Undo was in
> the early days of graphic apps. The next step is to wire in Notepad,
> Simpletext and Emacs, but the next step after that is to bring the web
> browser into the text editing tools to erase the last seam. 

Why can't you make that step now?  X3D will depend on that because 
editing text (say <p> or even <form>) is one thing but try that 
with a 3D real time animation and see if you don't find yourself 
quickly using a fully rendered world and setting viewpoints that 
way, or do you really like to edit an indexed face set by hand?

> Microsoft was
> barking up the right tree, not too many people get this yet. Even on
> Scripting News where I've been writing about it for two years, people still
> think HTML rendering is a thing separate from using a computer. To ignore
> the web browser is to ignore where most of the creativity and intellect are
> going these days. 

Equating an HTML web browser with the web, then equating that with where 
most of the creativity and intellect are at seem to be pretty big
equations. 
It isn't true.  Simply and directly:  building a set of forms with HTML
to do what 
can be done easily and quickly with MSAccess without HTML is makes the 
app inefficient and hamstrings the customer unnecessarily.   In many 
cases, it is better to embed the browser object for some form
operations, 
some display operations, and use other objects elsewhere.  Build a 
iframe page that is as efficient as an Access embedded form and do 
recordset navigation with it without using the objects provided for 
that.  Now, keep that app running for a few generations of dllHell. 

> That's the other reason I do the web. Without a web
> browser there are no web sites. Sorry for rambling, hope this makes sense to
> someone out there. Dave

It makes sense.  We aren't quibbling that a web browser of some kind is 
needed, but is it TheWebBrowser (ie, the XHTML centric one), or just a 
content handler that knows HTTP and has an API for scripting?

len


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 21:40:15 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net> <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy> <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy>

>>It makes sense.  We aren't quibbling that a web browser of some kind is
needed, but is it TheWebBrowser (ie, the XHTML centric one), or just a
content handler that knows HTTP and has an API for scripting?

We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
There are two types of developers in the world:

1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
handler, that specific one.

2. Everyone else.

I could try to explain why this is so, but previous debates make me
reluctant to try, so I won't. Think of it this way. You and I are developing
for different platforms. You like what you do, I like what I do. Life is
great.

Dave


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From burton at relativity.yi.org  Wed Jan 19 21:40:40 2000
From: burton at relativity.yi.org (Kevin A. Burton)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: XML -> Java code generator.
Message-ID: <38862F2E.B32054F5@relativity.yi.org>

So I am looking for a decent API that allows me to think of an XML
document as a Java object... and not in terms of DOM/SAX and also allows
me to abstract what XML parser that I am using so that it can be either
XML4J/Xerces/etc.

So for code like the following


<!ELEMENT rss (channel)>
<!ATTLIST rss
          version     CDATA #REQUIRED> <!-- must be "0.91"> -->

<!ELEMENT channel ( title | description )*>
<!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT description (#PCDATA)>


You would get 
------------------

package mypackage;

import org.w3c.dom;
import java.io.IOException;

public class RSSDocument {

	public RSSDocument(String URL) throws IOException {
		//parse out the dom and store it as a private
		//member... impl here
	}

	public String getTitle() {
		//impl here
	}

	public String getDescription() {
		//impl here
	}

	public String getVersion() {

	}

}

Also, an element with an ATTLIST would be treated as members of a java
object.

Thoughts?  If I have to write my own code here it will be done as Open
Source.

Kevin

-- 
Kevin A Burton
Senior Software Engineer
Kendara Inc
http://www.kendara.com
Mobile:  408-910-6145
Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From klarlund at research.att.com  Wed Jan 19 21:54:25 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com> <38860073.264B360A@reutershealth.com>
Message-ID: <014101bf62c7$1a18a560$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>

> Nils Klarlund wrote:
>
> > Although the document is cleanly written, it introduces some very
> > cumbersome language,
>
> The author (me) wished to avoid using either "tree" or "grove", both of
> which have highly partisan implications, and therefore used a neutral
> terminology of "information items".  This *is* cumbersome, and I tried
> to abbreviate it to "info items" but was overruled.
>

John, I respectfully disagree.  The concept "tree" is an elementary
one, that you'll find scattered around introductory text books in
computer science.  I don't find it loaded at all.  No more than "list"
or "string".

> The DOM needs to make compromises for the sake of implementation, and
> only handles part of the information content of an XML document.
> (This is being remedied in DOM Levels 2 and 3, but they are not
> finished yet.)
>
That's interesting. Your remark in the parentheses seems like an argument
for
explaining "Information Set"  in terms of DOM.   Then
"Information Set"  could be become "Canonical DOM"  and everybody would be
able
 to talk about element nodes and attribute nodes and so forth.  I  think
that
 would make people a lot happier.

> If by "finer" you mean better, that's a matter of opinion.  If you
> mean "more detailed", not necessarily.  Infoset represents things that
> are not in DOM at all.

I meant "more detailed"!  Could you elaborate on your last sentence,
please (if it applies to DOM2,3)?  Thanks,

/Nils


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From gmessner at vsi.com  Wed Jan 19 22:06:45 2000
From: gmessner at vsi.com (Greg Messner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: XML -> Java code generator.
Message-ID: <807E1C18A44ED311B72500902746407F0756C9@epicenter.vsi.com>


Take a look at Breeze Commerce Studio. Breeze does everything you describe
plus much more and it's free. Following is a description:

Breeze Commerce Studio (Breeze) is a visual developer's tool that imports
schema from XML DTDs, XML documents, and JDBC/ODBC connectable databases.
Once a schema has been imported, Breeze allows the developer to
interactively add data types and constraints to the elements of the schema.
>From this modified schema, Breeze creates Java 1.1/1.2 compliant code that
allows a programmer to access the contents of a  XML document like the
properties of a standard JavaBean. In addition to methods for accessing the
contained XML document, Breeze also generates methods to read and write XML
objects to and from XML document streams.

>From a programmers point of view, Breeze generates Java 1.1/1.2 compliant
code that greatly simplifies access to XML documents, XML based messaging,
or just about any source of XML as well as providing basic object to
relational mapping for databases. Breeze was and is used extensively in it's
own development.

For a look at the programming aspect of Breeze vs. DOM take a look at:

	http://www.vsi.com/breeze/justsayno.html

For an overview of Breeze go to:

	http://www.vsi.com/breeze/


Greg Messner
Director of E-Commerce Technologies, VSI


-----Original Message-----
From: Kevin A. Burton [mailto:burton@relativity.yi.org]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:40 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: XML -> Java code generator.


So I am looking for a decent API that allows me to think of an XML
document as a Java object... and not in terms of DOM/SAX and also allows
me to abstract what XML parser that I am using so that it can be either
XML4J/Xerces/etc.

So for code like the following


<!ELEMENT rss (channel)>
<!ATTLIST rss
          version     CDATA #REQUIRED> <!-- must be "0.91"> -->

<!ELEMENT channel ( title | description )*>
<!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT description (#PCDATA)>


You would get 
------------------

package mypackage;

import org.w3c.dom;
import java.io.IOException;

public class RSSDocument {

	public RSSDocument(String URL) throws IOException {
		//parse out the dom and store it as a private
		//member... impl here
	}

	public String getTitle() {
		//impl here
	}

	public String getDescription() {
		//impl here
	}

	public String getVersion() {

	}

}

Also, an element with an ATTLIST would be treated as members of a java
object.

Thoughts?  If I have to write my own code here it will be done as Open
Source.

Kevin

-- 
Kevin A Burton
Senior Software Engineer
Kendara Inc
http://www.kendara.com
Mobile:  408-910-6145
Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.

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Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.



From simonstl at simonstl.com  Wed Jan 19 22:31:53 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy>
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
 <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy>
 <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net>
 <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>
 <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <200001192231.RAA27915@hesketh.net>

At 01:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
>We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
>There are two types of developers in the world:
>
>1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
>at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
>handler, that specific one.
>
>2. Everyone else.

#1 doesn't make sense to me, since half the messages on the Web development
mailing lists I get are about cross-platform Web developmet - IE/NS/Opera,
Mac/PC/Unix, etc. Are you just talking about the poor sods who are forced
to exist (some choose to exist) in Windows-only environments and develop
for Intranets?

If so, I'd say #2 is way too broad a category, if it isn't already.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.



From s.livingstone at btinternet.com  Wed Jan 19 22:58:15 2000
From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com><02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy><38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net><038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy><38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net> <200001192231.RAA27915@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <061901bf62d0$a303fb50$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>

> #1 doesn't make sense to me, since half the messages on the Web
development
> mailing lists I get are about cross-platform Web developmet - IE/NS/Opera,
> Mac/PC/Unix, etc. Are you just talking about the poor sods who are forced
> to exist (some choose to exist) in Windows-only environments and develop
> for Intranets?

I think we are forced to do this for two reasons:

1. The users want a interface like "the one we had before" which typically
means a client/server based application. Netscape (and no doubt Opera) are
*very* unusable in this context, although you can get Netscape to do a bit
of what you want after a lot of coding. IE just does it and allows us to use
XML, so I don't know if such users would be so poor - indeed achieving the
benefits offered by XML woudl imply the exact opposite to me. !? I have been
able to break all of my applications into complely seperate layers from XML
to COM and it's great ! I can even make it look and work liek a windows
app - the business wants this and they pay for the systems.

2. No-one else seems interested in the fact that app dev is moving this way.
I have been told that the next version of Netscape won't offer support for
XML and XSL - at least that is hte case for the current test version.

SOAP/XMLRPC enables different platforms and languages to talk to each other,
but that's as far as we've got so far.

Cheers
Steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
+44 (0) 7771 957 280

Professional XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
----- Original Message -----
From: Simon St.Laurent <simonstl@simonstl.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> At 01:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
> >We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
> >There are two types of developers in the world:
> >
> >1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users
look
> >at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any
content
> >handler, that specific one.
> >
> >2. Everyone else.
>
> #1 doesn't make sense to me, since half the messages on the Web
development
> mailing lists I get are about cross-platform Web developmet - IE/NS/Opera,
> Mac/PC/Unix, etc. Are you just talking about the poor sods who are forced
> to exist (some choose to exist) in Windows-only environments and develop
> for Intranets?
>
> If so, I'd say #2 is way too broad a category, if it isn't already.
>
> Simon St.Laurent
> XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
> Building XML Applications
> Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
> Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
> http://www.simonstl.com
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>
>


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.



From schampeo at hesketh.com  Wed Jan 19 23:21:28 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <061901bf62d0$a303fb50$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Steven Livingstone wrote:
> I think we are forced to do this for two reasons:
> 
> 1. The users want a interface like "the one we had before" which typically
> means a client/server based application. Netscape (and no doubt Opera) are
> *very* unusable in this context, although you can get Netscape to do a bit
> of what you want after a lot of coding. IE just does it and allows us to use
> XML, so I don't know if such users would be so poor - indeed achieving the
> benefits offered by XML woudl imply the exact opposite to me. !? I have been
> able to break all of my applications into complely seperate layers from XML
> to COM and it's great ! I can even make it look and work liek a windows
> app - the business wants this and they pay for the systems.

And the folks in your audience who don't have the latest browser? What then?
 
> 2. No-one else seems interested in the fact that app dev is moving this way.
> I have been told that the next version of Netscape won't offer support for
> XML and XSL - at least that is hte case for the current test version.

Hm. If you're referring to Mozilla, I recommend that you download it again.
They've had some very cool XML+DOM-driven test stuff as part of the standard
distro for several of the more recent milestone versions. As for XSL support
in the client, you're right:

 http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/faq.html#cssnotxsl

The rationale is sensible, IMHO.

Frankly, I'm thinking of XSL as a server-side technology, especially so given
that XSLT has roughly the same format and function (though with XML->XML
translations rather than XML->HTML translations).

Steve


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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Wed Jan 19 23:40:16 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119182749.24127N-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Steven Champeon wrote:
> Frankly, I'm thinking of XSL as a server-side technology, especially so
> given that XSLT has roughly the same format and function (though with 
> XML->XML translations rather than XML->HTML translations).

To respond to my own post, I'd like to add that I generally break uses of
XML down into several categories, which overlap somewhat based on the 
workflow vectors the document follows on its way to rendering or storage:

 - simple structured document storage and management (compare with SGML,
   which is still being used for more complex or large legacy document
   storage applications)

 - simple structured data storage and retrieval (as input/output to/from
   databases - IOW, as an intermediate storage format between databases,
   or between database and application - this seems to be what Len and 
   Dave W. are talking about)

 - simple structured document storage, intended for static online display
   and rendering (this is where XSL and XSLT come in - the XML doc is the
   "permanent" storage format, XSL is used to translate the XML doc into
   HTML, and XSLT may be used for translation between one XML DTD and 
   another, perhaps so that CSS stylesheets may be developed for the final
   XML/HTML output, and multiple DTDs can be used for "permanent" storage,
   as long as they map to the "final output" DTD, which will be rendered
   with CSS)

 - simple structured document storage, intended for XML+CSS capable
   browsers (where the XML document is displayed using CSS)

 - inline storage of document metadata for search indexer/engine purposes

But I'm weird like that. I don't see the need or justification behind the
use of database-heavy applications on the server to deliver what is 
essentially static content. As a live index search, maybe, but those apps
tend to be agnostic WRT what document format they happen to be indexing.

I'm sure there are others, I'd love to hear what people here think I've
left out.

YMMV,
Steve



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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 23:38:36 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <03eb01bf62d6$477c6000$1918ccce@murphy>

>>And the folks in your audience who don't have the latest browser? What
then?

Easy. The functionality has to degrade so that it at least *works* in (some)
older browsers.

These days it's pretty safe to require a version 4-level browser.

This is exactly analogous to the "system requirements" that pre-web apps
used to have.

Like "Requires System 7.1 or greater."

Or "Requires Windows 3.1 or greater."

The market is moving to IE 5 at a quick pace now. And there are plenty of
popular web sites that only work with IE5.The more of these there are, the
easier it will be to settle on IE 5 as the default browser.

I didn't invent this way of doing things, I'm just telling you where we're
at right now.

Dave


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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Wed Jan 19 23:50:51 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <03eb01bf62d6$477c6000$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119184126.24127O-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> >>And the folks in your audience who don't have the latest browser? What
> then?
> 
> Easy. The functionality has to degrade so that it at least *works* in (some)
> older browsers.

Dave, the discussion at hand was regarding the use of XML+XSL on the
client side. Please explain how this is supposed to "degrade".
 
> These days it's pretty safe to require a version 4-level browser.

That depends on your audience. We still develop sites for one of our
largest clients that degrade well enough to be viewed in Lynx, as over 20%
of their audience - the consumers who buy the client's books - are still
using Lynx or old GUI browsers on university networks, which, as you may
not be aware, are notorious for not upgrading to the latest OS revision.

And yet, we're using XML as a storage format for much of their content,
and parsing it into HTML (though using Perl rather than XSL, given the
limitations of their environment and other factors).

> This is exactly analogous to the "system requirements" that pre-web apps
> used to have.

Yes, I suppose you're right. So, a glorious return to the closed and
proprietary world the Web was supposed to liberate us from. Whee. I
find it hard to celebrate such willingness to sacrifice everything we
had gained over the past seven years.

Steve



xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dave at userland.com  Wed Jan 19 23:53:53 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119184126.24127O-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <03fb01bf62d8$6d60c660$1918ccce@murphy>

Parsing XML into HTML on the server-side is a good idea. Makes up for lots
of variability on the client side.

And we have some sites that work on Lynx too. I think we're doing pretty
much the same thing you are.

Peace and love brother..

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Champeon" <schampeo@hesketh.com>
To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
Cc: "Steven Livingstone" <s.livingstone@btinternet.com>; "Simon St.Laurent"
<simonstl@simonstl.com>; "'XML Dev'" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 3:50 PM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> > >>And the folks in your audience who don't have the latest browser? What
> > then?
> >
> > Easy. The functionality has to degrade so that it at least *works* in
(some)
> > older browsers.
>
> Dave, the discussion at hand was regarding the use of XML+XSL on the
> client side. Please explain how this is supposed to "degrade".
>
> > These days it's pretty safe to require a version 4-level browser.
>
> That depends on your audience. We still develop sites for one of our
> largest clients that degrade well enough to be viewed in Lynx, as over 20%
> of their audience - the consumers who buy the client's books - are still
> using Lynx or old GUI browsers on university networks, which, as you may
> not be aware, are notorious for not upgrading to the latest OS revision.
>
> And yet, we're using XML as a storage format for much of their content,
> and parsing it into HTML (though using Perl rather than XSL, given the
> limitations of their environment and other factors).
>
> > This is exactly analogous to the "system requirements" that pre-web apps
> > used to have.
>
> Yes, I suppose you're right. So, a glorious return to the closed and
> proprietary world the Web was supposed to liberate us from. Whee. I
> find it hard to celebrate such willingness to sacrifice everything we
> had gained over the past seven years.
>
> Steve
>
>


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 00:00:12 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <03eb01bf62d6$477c6000$1918ccce@murphy>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>

At 03:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:

>The market is moving to IE 5 at a quick pace now. And there are plenty of
>popular web sites that only work with IE5.The more of these there are, the
>easier it will be to settle on IE 5 as the default browser.

Sure, if you want to limit your audience that way. 

There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
that it should be "required" to use. Many, many users and customers will
happily surf away to something else if you try and force wholly unnecessary
artificial barriers at them. 

>I didn't invent this way of doing things, I'm just telling you where we're
>at right now.

Your conclusions are highly debatable. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From smuench at us.oracle.com  Thu Jan 20 00:42:19 2000
From: smuench at us.oracle.com (Steve Muench)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: XML -> Java code generator.
References: <38862F2E.B32054F5@relativity.yi.org>
Message-ID: <031901bf62e0$0446d310$3b652382@us.oracle.com>

Kevin,

The Oracle Class Generators for Java or C++ do this
for you. See the free download at:

http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/


_________________________________________________________
Steve Muench, Consulting Product Manager & XML Evangelist
Business Components for Java Development Team

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin A. Burton" <burton@relativity.yi.org>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 1:39 PM
Subject: XML -> Java code generator.


| So I am looking for a decent API that allows me to think of an XML
| document as a Java object... and not in terms of DOM/SAX and also allows
| me to abstract what XML parser that I am using so that it can be either
| XML4J/Xerces/etc.
|
| So for code like the following
|
|
| <!ELEMENT rss (channel)>
| <!ATTLIST rss
|           version     CDATA #REQUIRED> <!-- must be "0.91"> -->
|
| <!ELEMENT channel ( title | description )*>
| <!ELEMENT title (#PCDATA)>
| <!ELEMENT description (#PCDATA)>
|
|
| You would get
| ------------------
|
| package mypackage;
|
| import org.w3c.dom;
| import java.io.IOException;
|
| public class RSSDocument {
|
| public RSSDocument(String URL) throws IOException {
| file://parse out the dom and store it as a private
| file://member... impl here
| }
|
| public String getTitle() {
| file://impl here
| }
|
| public String getDescription() {
| file://impl here
| }
|
| public String getVersion() {
|
| }
|
| }
|
| Also, an element with an ATTLIST would be treated as members of a java
| object.
|
| Thoughts?  If I have to write my own code here it will be done as Open
| Source.
|
| Kevin
|
| --
| Kevin A Burton
| Senior Software Engineer
| Kendara Inc
| http://www.kendara.com
| Mobile:  408-910-6145
| Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised
|
| xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
|
|


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From s.livingstone at btinternet.com  Thu Jan 20 00:52:27 2000
From: s.livingstone at btinternet.com (Steven Livingstone)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net> <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>

> There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
> that it should be "required" to use.

Maybe not content on it's own, but it is *much* easier to develop for and
using XSL, providing different interfaces to different users it so easy.

>Many, many users and customers will
> happily surf away to something else if you try and force wholly
unnecessary
> artificial barriers at them.

I find the opposite true. There are so many developments out there now that
require far too many mouse clicks to get to the information you want. The
interfaces are just so bulky and it put's me off. Content if different from
applications which are much more difficult to develop for.

I experienced the problem today. IE 5 users had no probs and were quite
happy with the system. Other users were not happy with clicking all the
time. I am talking about Application dev right enough - content is likely
different !?

cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
+44 (0) 7771 957 280

Professional XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
----- Original Message -----
From: Ann Navarro <ann@webgeek.com>
To: Dave Winer <dave@userland.com>
Cc: 'XML Dev' <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 12:02 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> At 03:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
>
> >The market is moving to IE 5 at a quick pace now. And there are plenty of
> >popular web sites that only work with IE5.The more of these there are,
the
> >easier it will be to settle on IE 5 as the default browser.
>
> Sure, if you want to limit your audience that way.
>
> There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
> that it should be "required" to use. Many, many users and customers will
> happily surf away to something else if you try and force wholly
unnecessary
> artificial barriers at them.
>
> >I didn't invent this way of doing things, I'm just telling you where
we're
> >at right now.
>
> Your conclusions are highly debatable.
>
> Ann
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
>
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education
http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
>
>
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>
>


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 00:59:59 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: IMPORTANT: UNSUBSCRIBING
In-Reply-To: <200001191620.RAA05173@mail.informatik.hu-berlin.de>
Message-ID: <E12B5x2-0007a7-0X@anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net>

A large number of unsubscribe messages are coming through to the list.  I
am sure Henry will
post the reason tomorrow. As you know the subscription to the list has been
temporarily
closed. Unless a large number of people have suddenly forgotten how to
unsubscribe
I suspect that these messages are because the mailer software has got
confused.

I suggest that people are patient for a day or two - in any case I suspect
the UNSUBSCRIBEs 
are not working so there is no point.

As you know, Henry and I do not have direct access to the mailer - which is
one of the reasons
we are handing over to OASIS. We expect details of transfer shortly.

	P.



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From bkline at rksystems.com  Thu Jan 20 01:05:30 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <03eb01bf62d6$477c6000$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001191958010.30491-100000@rksystems.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Dave Winer wrote:

> The market is moving to IE 5 at a quick pace now. 

Of course, you may have your own definition of "quick", but I saw a
study a few days ago which indicated that it would be some time between
2003 and 2005 before most IE users had upgraded to version 5, and of
course Microsoft doesn't have 100% of the market (yet) even with all its
versions combined.  Who knows, they may even see some erosion of their
gains once Netscape catches up and releases their version 5.

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 01:30:49 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net> <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
Message-ID: <043901bf62e5$f769c480$1918ccce@murphy>

And sometimes the innovation is so compelling that you go ahead and do it
and know that only MSIE 5 users are even going to be able to run it without
crashing the browser. Here's such an example:

http://irights.editthispage.com/

He's got the site chunked into daily segments and by clicking on the + or -
icons you can view the day in an expanded or collapsed mode.

We're finally beginning to catch up with where desktop apps were in the
mid-80s.

Slowly but surely.

Dave


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Thu Jan 20 01:35:10 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
References: <03eb01bf62d6$477c6000$1918ccce@murphy>
 <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000119165627.00a93e80@shell16.ba.best.com>

At Wednesday 1/19/00 07:02 PM -0500, Ann Navarro wrote:
>At 03:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
>
> >The market is moving to IE 5 at a quick pace now. And there are plenty of
> >popular web sites that only work with IE5.The more of these there are, the
> >easier it will be to settle on IE 5 as the default browser.

<snip>

>Your conclusions are highly debatable.

I agree with Ann here. As has been correctly pointed out, there are plenty 
of sites that use Lynx as a default browser, and much of the low-vision and 
blind user community will *never* "upgrade" to IE 4 or above, ever.

In addition to the commercial concern of limiting your market, failing to 
take Lynx and other text-mode browsers into account when you design a site 
is quite probably engineering malpractice and an invitation to an ADA 
lawsuit for many sites, assuming the site does anything useful for which a 
person with a disability might need equal access and reasonable 
accommodation to use.

We can note that not so very long ago "the market moved" toward imposing 
steps at the entrances to public buildings in utter disregard for a 
significant portion of the population. Which steps are now being 
retrofitted with expensive ramps, elevators, and other workarounds 
addressing the design failures of short-sighted (or arrogant) architects in 
the days before ADA.

While it might be fun to use the latest and greatest of everything, it will 
be far less fun to redesign an entire site to provide a parallel path for 
users with disabilities.

The US Department of Justice has already issued rulings specifically 
addressing Web site design, which basically seem to say that mere ignorance 
or the unavailability of accessibility features in a particular toolset is 
no excuse, since accessibility guidelines and tools *are* available and 
have been for some time. If you don't use them, or fail to take 
accessibility into account and provide for it, you, or your customer, may 
well be entirely liable for the entire cost of remediation with no fiscal 
limits based on "reasonability."



xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From Jason.Paich at Aspect.com  Thu Jan 20 01:35:46 2000
From: Jason.Paich at Aspect.com (Paich, Jason)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: ASP2XML
Message-ID: <25AFB008EF1DD3118184009027620FD8893414@naems17.aspect.com>

I'd like to integrate ASP and XML, where could I find information to do
this?
Jason.

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 20 01:54:13 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
	 <004d01bf6238$5e76d540$342a08d1@tomshp> <whzou2ouwk.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <38866AB9.701BD1CF@pacbell.net>

Steinar Bang wrote:
> 
> >>>>> "Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@idsonline.com>:
> 
> > XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA
> 
> Hm... that really depends on your definition of "lighter-weight"...

Indeed.  The first implementation of IIOP was a little engine
I wrote, which I seem to recall compiled to about 5Kb on an x86.

That's client and server side, both -- all you needed to interop
with another IIOP engine (a.k.a ORB).  And yes, it was faster
than any commercial product I remember hearing about, not just
smaller than them.  I remember noticing when I hit the sweet spot
to get have the core engine stay inside that little cache on the
486 CPU ... there's nothing like such an observation for an XML
package.

I don't recall seeing an XML parser that small, much less one
that also embedded the networking support.  On the other hand,
CORBA vendors also add their own share of glop to the mix, so
things tend to even out.

- Dave

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 20 01:59:40 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0271@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <38866C07.7B055924@pacbell.net>

"Hunter, David" wrote:
> 
> From: Miles Sabin [mailto:msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 18, 2000 10:57 AM
> >
> > I'm having trouble seeing why XML over HTTP is preferable to
> > eg. CORBA or Java RMI (maybe tunneled through HTTP if there's
> > a need to traverse firewalls) for application specific comms.
> > How is application specific markup better than an application
> > specific binary wire protocol?
> 
> The two thoughts off the top of my head:
> 
> 1)  It's easier to debug.  If things are going wrong, it's pretty cool to be
> able to just pull the data up in Notepad, and see if there's anything screwy
> going on.  Admittedly not a powerful reason at all.  :-)

Go back to the drawing board on that one ... higher developer
productivity is a big deal!! ;-)


> 2)  The ability to swap in and out different clients, and leave the server
> alone.  If I want to use a Visual Basic client on my company's Windows
> boxen, and C++ clients on my Mac boxen, and maybe Java on my UNIX boxen,
> they can all still just communicate with the server via my XML document
> type.  I don't have to make everyone use Java, or lock myself into a
> specific CORBA vendor, or use DCOM and make ALL my clients Windows boxen,
> etc.

If your CORBA vendor gives you lock-in, yell at them till they fix
it ... that's a severe bug.  XML + HTTP doesn't change that interop
picture.

However, I think it's true that since XML is text, most any programming
tool nowadays can work with it at least a little bit, and that's not
true of any normal RPC.  One doesn't do bit-twiddling in VB, it's nasty
for most protocols ... one needs expensive (and usually proprietary)
tools to create DLLs to do the bit-twiddly stuff for you.

The cross-platform interop story is one reason I never could support
the RMI story ... there was none, and interoperability between systems
is the driving force behind every networked application.

- Dave

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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 02:50:51 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000119214943.00c77d50@mail.webgeek.com>

At 12:52 AM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone wrote:

> I am talking about Application dev right enough - content is likely
>different !?


User inteface design is now based on the convenience for the programmer? 



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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 02:48:29 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <043901bf62e5$f769c480$1918ccce@murphy>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>

At 05:30 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:

>He's got the site chunked into daily segments and by clicking on the + or -
>icons you can view the day in an expanded or collapsed mode.

<disbelief>
+ and - menus are so compelling that you'll exclude nearly half your audience? 
</disbelief>

Ok.

Ann


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Thu Jan 20 02:57:28 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675226@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <004d01bf6238$5e76d540$342a08d1@tomshp> <whzou2ouwk.fsf@viffer.metis.no> <38866AB9.701BD1CF@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <00ce01bf62f2$e407fe40$db2a08d1@tomshp>


David Brownell wrote:


> Steinar Bang wrote:
> > 
> > >>>>> "Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@idsonline.com>:
> > 
> > > XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA
> > 
> > Hm... that really depends on your definition of "lighter-weight"...
> 
> Indeed.  The first implementation of IIOP was a little engine
> I wrote, which I seem to recall compiled to about 5Kb on an x86.
> 
> That's client and server side, both -- all you needed to interop
> with another IIOP engine (a.k.a ORB).  And yes, it was faster
> than any commercial product I remember hearing about, not just
> smaller than them.  I remember noticing when I hit the sweet spot
> to get have the core engine stay inside that little cache on the
> 486 CPU ... there's nothing like such an observation for an XML
> package.
> 
> I don't recall seeing an XML parser that small, much less one

Remember Jeremie's Javascript XML parser (XParse) - it was about 5K!
[Sorry - I just couldn't resist :) ]

Tom

> that also embedded the networking support.  On the other hand,
> CORBA vendors also add their own share of glop to the mix, so
> things tend to even out.
> 
> - Dave
> 



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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 03:16:59 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net><4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29><066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz> <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>
Message-ID: <046d01bf62f4$cc9dd020$1918ccce@murphy>

> <disbelief>
> + and - menus are so compelling that you'll exclude nearly half your
audience?
> </disbelief>

Yes, I would play with new ideas even if only a dozen people could use them.
I'm constantly trying to learn, to have new experiences, and I especially
like it when someone like the author of the site I pointed you to, blows my
mind with something I had never thought of but enjoy using. Basically I
don't care that much about "half my audience." A couple of years ago we
started building on the assumption that lots of people would have full-time
net connections, at a time when almost no one did. I made a bet, I thought I
knew how the market would develop. It takes a few years to make a new idea
happen, so if I want to be in the market when it's happening I *have* to do
things that only play on a limited number of systems.

Dave


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From tyler at infinet.com  Thu Jan 20 03:58:43 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:23 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net><4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29><066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz> <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com> <046d01bf62f4$cc9dd020$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <38868765.6E22767@infinet.com>

Dave Winer wrote:

> > <disbelief>
> > + and - menus are so compelling that you'll exclude nearly half your
> audience?
> > </disbelief>
>
> Yes, I would play with new ideas even if only a dozen people could use them.
> I'm constantly trying to learn, to have new experiences, and I especially
> like it when someone like the author of the site I pointed you to, blows my
> mind with something I had never thought of but enjoy using. Basically I
> don't care that much about "half my audience." A couple of years ago we
> started building on the assumption that lots of people would have full-time
> net connections, at a time when almost no one did. I made a bet, I thought I
> knew how the market would develop. It takes a few years to make a new idea
> happen, so if I want to be in the market when it's happening I *have* to do
> things that only play on a limited number of systems.

Intuition is severely lacking on the internet these days as 99% of the software companies
out there just try and follow the hype and never try and do anything original.

If you think about the early days of the web browser, many people said it was too hard to
use for the average internet user and that the internet web browser was only for techies.
Well the web browser since the days of Mosaic really has not come along very far from what
it did then and what is does now, yet many millions of people learn how to "surf" the web
in only a few hours. The core technology and user interface did not change significantly,
but the mass perception of the technology and user interface changed from something that
only rocket scientists could understand to something as easy as using a remote control.

Of course when the VCR first came out, many people thought that using it was a complicated
task that only techie masters could ever understand, but somehow over the years even
though the same buttons are there, everyone including 4 year olds know how to use a VCR.

The idea of new types of user interfaces being "too" complicated is often a case of people
not having enough faith in people to learn new things. The entire world has been stuck in
WIMP land for over 20 years because firms and software companies are too afraid to go over
the head of their users.

Ann, I think Dave is just trying to be a rainmaker and there is nothing wrong with that,
especially since the internet has seemed to have hit a period of lameness over the past
two to three years where few original applications have hit the desktop. Right now you
have the web browser, instant messaging, email, and that is about it. Hopefully, more
software developers like Dave will choose to be rainmakers in the future.

Tyler

P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade their 486 to a
modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of Navigator or IE, the
chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways because the don't even
have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 04:29:43 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000119214943.00c77d50@mail.webgeek.com>
Message-ID: <38868C9B.FAF@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> User interface design is now based on the convenience for the programmer?

If you want it to work as often as possible, yes.  It isn't as Tim
suggests 
that they vote for the webInterface because it is the best one, it is
because 
it is the one with the most content.  If they are given a more reliable 
system, then they discover what the Mac users have always enjoyed, 
higher productivity.
 
For the scripter (any scripter) to be productive, the components 
must work the same way.  Closed systems make that affordable.  That 
is the engineers voting with their feet.

No one here thinks the competitors are going away, but the numbers 
favor the vendor with the best MTBF over a range of well-specified 
tests.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 04:29:42 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net> <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <388689DD.46EF@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 

> There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
> that it should be "required" to use.

> Your conclusions are highly debatable.

But the barriers aren't artificial.  Reliability is why Dave wants 
that to happen.  Remove the need to write for multiple frameworks, 
and the reliability goes up.   Reliability numbers are a 
characteristic of the component.

Most of us think about books still and XML does that fine.  
Some of us now have to think about execution models for 
real time entertainment applications.  In a real time 
system, the execution model is the dominant characteristic 
of the specified contract.  Behavioral fidelity.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 04:29:44 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net> <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy> <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net> <039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy> <388686B7.126F@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <38868DF4.3773@hiwaay.net>

Len Bullard wrote:
> 
> Dave Winer wrote:
> >
> > >>It makes sense.  We aren't quibbling that a web browser of some kind is
> > needed, but is it TheWebBrowser (ie, the XHTML centric one), or just a
> > content handler that knows HTTP and has an API for scripting?
> >
> > We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
> > There are two types of developers in the world:
> >
> > 1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
> > at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
> > handler, that specific one.
> >
> > 2. Everyone else.
 
 "You and me against the world, it looks like you and me against the
 world."
 
 It's an old song, Dave.  If the web is some engineering singularity,
 what characteristic is the coupled driver that separates it from
 all others?  The Web is not a force of nature.  It is code.
 
> > I could try to explain why this is so, but previous debates make me
> > reluctant to try, so I won't.
 
  I will.  Reliability.  You are version bound for the
 same reason the proprietary system gets good reliability numbers:  a
 single codebase under version control and compiled by configurable
 processes but predictable processes.  You use a named component.
 Important.  It is named for the codebase; not the spec.
 
> > Think of it this way. You and I are developing
> > for different platforms. You like what you do, I like what I do. Life is
> > great.
 
 And will get better.  I don't just develop offTheWeb.  My job is to
 merge them and I think it is for most people here who work on content
 and code.  Our problem is not XML.  XML is fine.  Our problem is XML,
 and DHTML, and X3D, and SVG and so on.  Seamless interoperation must
 equate to behavioral fidelity over some predictable time or certain
 kinds of content cost too much:  TV has to work every time you turn it
 on.  You can't be buying a new tuner every week.  If the TV is that
 maintenance intensive, it had better maintain itself.
 
 Sniffer scripts??????
 
 If I were GatesTheSoftwareEng, I would ask myself the question the
content
 developer community asks?  How can we get the reliability numbers for
the
 components up?   So far, the solution is always tied to the named
 codebase.  IDLs don't seem to say enough about behavior to assign
numbers like
 MTBF.
 
 A spec, something an FPI names, is not the code.  The component named
 by the namespace (eg, consider how SAX sets characteristics with
 namespaces) must have a logistics value.   The dilemma is what is to be
tested, how 
 to make that available, and how to use that dynamically to determine
the best 
 components possible.  Do that in real time.
 
 Behavioral fidelity expressed as reliability.  IOW, as good as TV.  
 
 len


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From donpark at docuverse.com  Thu Jan 20 04:38:44 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>
Message-ID: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
into public domain.  A non-profit open source organization
could be setup to coordinate merging of Mozilla and IE into a
universal browser and beyond.

Effects of such an event to W3C is somewhat difficult to guage
though.

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 20 04:48:11 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000119204700.014dbb70@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:15 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Don Park wrote:
>I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
>one browser to support.

Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs for
there to be more than one browser.  -T.

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From jamesr at steptwo.com.au  Thu Jan 20 05:05:13 2000
From: jamesr at steptwo.com.au (James Robertson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000119204700.014dbb70@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000120160222.00ca7580@203.41.126.17>

At 15:47 20/01/2000 , Tim Bray wrote:

>At 08:15 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Don Park wrote:
> >I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
> >one browser to support.
>
>Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs for
>there to be more than one browser.  -T.

Yes, I agree.

Diversity breeds innovative thinking.
Lack of competition breeds stagnation.

(Although I wonder now why I've just
wandered into a very off-topic, what-if
discussion.)

Just my $0.02,

J


-------------------------
James Robertson
Step Two Designs Pty Ltd
SGML, XML & HTML Consultancy
Illumination: an out-of-the-box Intranet solution

http://www.steptwo.com.au/
jamesr@steptwo.com.au

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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Thu Jan 20 05:24:10 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38868765.6E22767@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001192101180.20751-100000@netcom2.netcom.com>

On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Tyler Baker wrote:
> P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade their 486 to a
> modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of Navigator or IE, the
> chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways because the don't even
> have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.

You're guilty of projecting geek values onto the public at large.  If a
geek doesn't have the latest and greatest computer system, the reason is
likely to be that he doesn't have the cash to upgrade.  But non-geeks
generally anticipate computer upgrades with trepidation rather than
eagerness.  Only a small percentage of the population regards upgrading as
an enjoyable activity.  There are plenty of people who would be willing to
spend $1000 on-line for things they really wanted, but *not* to spend it
on upgrading their system.

If you have a product with high yuppie appeal that you want to sell
online, the likely end-user configuration even rhymes: "AOL and
Packard-Bell!"  That's a configuration that *no* self-respecting computer
geek would be caught dead with.  But as GM learned painfully in the 70s
and 80s, the kinds of cars the market wants to drive aren't necessarily
the same things GM's executives and engineers want to drive.

Note also that computers are much cheaper in the US than in the rest of
the world (as in World Wide Web) and also that nearly all advertised
computer prices in the US include a rebate that requires signing a
three-year contract with a particular ISP.

So far I've been talking about the upgrade situation for home users, but
for businesses it's even worse.  If a business has 500 computers,
upgrading them all is going to be *extremely* expensive even if the
computers themselves are free.  The only way you can hope to have an
all-bleeding-edge user base is to exclusively target startups and
first-time computer buyers.  And even then, you can't count on anything
except the computer itself.  For example, even if I could afford DSL, the
only way I could get it would be to move to a neighborhood where my rent
would at least double.  And I don't live in the sticks either.

I really think we're about to reach the point, if we haven't already
reached it, where the majority of computer users are going to start asking
"what *new* things do I get in return for upgrading my system, and how
much are they worth to me."  They're going to start rebelling at the idea
of upgrading simply to be able to keep doing what they're already doing or
to simply get shinier chrome on their applications.



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From srinivasav at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 05:32:35 2000
From: srinivasav at yahoo.com (av srinivas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: unsuscribe
Message-ID: <20000120053206.18162.qmail@web121.yahoomail.com>

 
 
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger.
http://im.yahoo.com

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From tyler at infinet.com  Thu Jan 20 06:24:46 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001192101180.20751-100000@netcom2.netcom.com>
Message-ID: <3886A9AF.AC6FC9E4@infinet.com>

Eric Bohlman wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Jan 2000, Tyler Baker wrote:
> > P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade their 486 to a
> > modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of Navigator or IE, the
> > chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways because the don't even
> > have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.
>
> You're guilty of projecting geek values onto the public at large.  If a
> geek doesn't have the latest and greatest computer system, the reason is
> likely to be that he doesn't have the cash to upgrade.  But non-geeks
> generally anticipate computer upgrades with trepidation rather than
> eagerness.  Only a small percentage of the population regards upgrading as
> an enjoyable activity.  There are plenty of people who would be willing to
> spend $1000 on-line for things they really wanted, but *not* to spend it
> on upgrading their system.

$1000? You don't need to spend an entire grand to get a great computer with monitor. You need
to spend around five hundred dollars. Yah you can spend $3,000 on a PC if you really wanted to.
$500 for a computer system is about what a lot of people spend on TV's and many people have two
or even three in a household. Also, add on the 30 dollars a month or more for online service as
well as some of the "Free PC" offers that are around, and it basicly means that if you can
afford to be online, then you can at least afford a modern computer.

> If you have a product with high yuppie appeal that you want to sell
> online, the likely end-user configuration even rhymes: "AOL and
> Packard-Bell!"  That's a configuration that *no* self-respecting computer
> geek would be caught dead with.  But as GM learned painfully in the 70s
> and 80s, the kinds of cars the market wants to drive aren't necessarily
> the same things GM's executives and engineers want to drive.

Packard-Bell is pretty much out of business these days and anyone who had to buy one of those
death machines usually ended having to buy another entire system shortly thereafter.
Nevertheless, your point makes no sense because GM screwed up in the 70's and 80's by not
innovating, but instead giving the American public a consistently mediocre lineup of
automobiles with catchy marketing slogans. Eventually, people got sick of the mediocrity of
Detroit and starting purchasing the more expensive but quality merchandise coming out of Japan.

> Note also that computers are much cheaper in the US than in the rest of
> the world (as in World Wide Web) and also that nearly all advertised
> computer prices in the US include a rebate that requires signing a
> three-year contract with a particular ISP.

Hey I bought an E-Machine Celeron 300 for under $500 and that was over a year ago. In the rest
of the world, internet connectivity is much more expensive than hardware will ever be.

> So far I've been talking about the upgrade situation for home users, but
> for businesses it's even worse.  If a business has 500 computers,
> upgrading them all is going to be *extremely* expensive even if the
> computers themselves are free.  The only way you can hope to have an
> all-bleeding-edge user base is to exclusively target startups and
> first-time computer buyers.  And even then, you can't count on anything
> except the computer itself.  For example, even if I could afford DSL, the
> only way I could get it would be to move to a neighborhood where my rent
> would at least double.  And I don't live in the sticks either.

This is all true, but unless the software industry creates new software which does new things
which may require an upgrade, then technology remains stagnant forever. My point was that it is
lame for people to never do anything interesting in computing because of their fears about the
lowest common denominator. I think you should look for middle ground and go for that.
Otherwise, you get sad situations where business keep doing patch-up jobs in IT that end up in
the long run costing much more than a complete upgrade. Hell, the world would not of spent a
trillion or so dollars on the Y2K bug if businesses did not treat their computing systems like
they are an old automobile that costs more to fix up than buying a new one.

> I really think we're about to reach the point, if we haven't already
> reached it, where the majority of computer users are going to start asking
> "what *new* things do I get in return for upgrading my system, and how
> much are they worth to me."  They're going to start rebelling at the idea
> of upgrading simply to be able to keep doing what they're already doing or
> to simply get shinier chrome on their applications.

Well that is true as long as us programmers keep producing boring software which is just a
clone or upgrade of a competitor's product. Yes there is no reason to even upgrade if you never
see anything but spreadsheets, word processors, and web browsers come out of the software
industry in the next 20 years. If that ends up being the case, then the software industry (not
the internet content industry) is totally dead, as would any industry that sits on their butt
and does nothing more interesting than product upgrades.

All that I was saying is that I thought that Dave was doing a good thing by trying new things
with web interfaces and that was about it.

Tyler


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From sb at metis.no  Thu Jan 20 07:13:01 2000
From: sb at metis.no (Steinar Bang)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: David Megginson's message of "18 Jan 2000 15:04:45 -0500"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m3ln5n6t9e.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <wh4scaq9mi.fsf@viffer.metis.no>

>>>>> David Megginson <david@megginson.com>:

> Personally, I like recursive-descent a lot (and probably wouldn't
> have finished writing the original AElfred parser otherwise).  Miles
> guesses correctly that SAX1 was push to accommodate existing
> parsers.

Doesn't recursive descent parsers have a problem with partial input
received from the net?  Don't you have to buffer up the entire file
before you start parsing?

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Thu Jan 20 08:51:44 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: <wh4scaq9mi.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001200047480.21356-100000@netcom2.netcom.com>

On 19 Jan 2000, Steinar Bang wrote:

> Doesn't recursive descent parsers have a problem with partial input
> received from the net?  Don't you have to buffer up the entire file
> before you start parsing?

Nope.  You only need to buffer up one (or for some grammars, two) token's
worth of input.



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From h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk  Thu Jan 20 09:00:44 2000
From: h.rzepa at ic.ac.uk (Rzepa, Henry)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: LISTADMIN: Update on list transfer to  OASIS
Message-ID: <v04220800b4ac7c857648@[155.198.224.86]>

I received today notification that reorganisation at OASIS
(it involves, inter alia, re-mapping of all the DNS
IP resolutions to a new physical site, which is one reason why
the transfer is occurring later than we all expected)   is now
largely complete.  OASIS were waiting for this before 
implementing the new list server.

I gather now that the new list is only days away from functioning,
at which  point  I will post details here of how to access it etc.

Meanwhile, I will summarise what we have done thus far

1. A complete list of subscribers as of  3 Jan was sent to 
OASIS in response to their request. This included the xml-dev-digest
list.

2. I have continued to add new subscribers, and the  
details of the  150 people or so who have subscribed since then
have also been passed to  OASIS. 

3. You can continue to unsubscribe by sending a message to  majordom@ic.ac.uk
of the type

unsubscribe  xml-dev

PLEASE NOTE the message is sent to majordomo@ic.ac.uk  and NOT
to  xml-dev@ic.ac.uk. If you send to the latter, it achieves nothing, and
merely irritates people (I might add that I often got comments regarding the
length of the signature file appended to this message, but since removing
unsubscription details in preparation for the transfer, the number of
incorrect unsubscriptions has ballooned! 

4. requests of the type sent to majordomo@ic.ac.uk

unsubscribe xml-dev your-subscribed-remail@your-subscribed-address   

are now UNMODERATED!   (They used to required my personal
moderation). 

I hope to pass on further news within a day or so. 

Henry Rzepa. +44 (0)20 7594 5774 (Office) +44 (0)20 7594 5804 (Fax)
Dept. Chemistry, Imperial College, London, SW7  2AY, UK. 
http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/rzepa/

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From digitome at iol.ie  Thu Jan 20 09:08:24 2000
From: digitome at iol.ie (Sean McGrath)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3886164B.7DCA@hiwaay.net>
References: <3.0.32.20000119085137.01404170@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000120084814.009a0e60@gpo.iol.ie>

[Dave Winer]
>> >> Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser
>> >
>> >I totally agree.
[>Tim Bray wrote:]
>> Yup, and for one reason: end-users want it.  Len may be right that
>> VB is way more convenient for the *programmer*, but the people of the
>> world have voted with their feet, and they're just not gonna go back to
>> custom-built clients. -Tim
>
[Len Bullard]
>That contradicts what we see in our business.

Same here. We increasinng use browsers as the viewing technology in
new products. Users sure don't want no custom viewers any more.
However, we join the browser at the hip to home grown client side
code in Delpli/Python/C++ whatever, to create fully featured
products on Windows.

Then there is Carmens Headline Viewer...And an
excellent search add-on whose name I forget... Whatever windoze
application you are running, you click on a word and up pops
a window containing definitions, translations, related information.
Cool stuff.

Anyway, these are interesting apps that do not fit entirely
within the HTML/XML/HTTP/URI world. Perhaps this is
just a passing phase. Perhaps when all machines have web servers
running on localhost out-of-the-box, this will change.
I dunno...

regards,

Sean,




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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Thu Jan 20 09:10:28 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: <wh4scaq9mi.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m3ln5n6t9e.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <wh4scaq9mi.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <m3ln5lp0qm.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Steinar Bang
| 
| Doesn't recursive descent parsers have a problem with partial input
| received from the net?  Don't you have to buffer up the entire file
| before you start parsing?

No. There are many recursive-descent parsers that support incremental
parsing (where data is pushed into the parser by the application).
xmllib (Python), xmlproc (Python) and expat (C, provided it is RD) do
this, at least. 

My unreleased Common Lisp parser also does this, but is not
incremental, instead it requires a stream from which it can read.

--Lars M.


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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Thu Jan 20 10:00:12 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: XML Schema --> C++
Message-ID: <C125686C.0035564C.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>



Hello

I want to try to generate C++ class declarations from an XML Schema .

Something like:

<template select = '//type' >
  class <value-of select="@name"/> {
   <apply-templates/>
  };
</template>

<template select = '//element' >
  <value-of select="@type"/> <value-of select="@name"/> ;
</template>

Remarks:
- not yet tested
- as writen this would generate embeded classes
- ID's and IDREF's would map to void* and list<void*>
- same principle could be applied to Java etc
- it is desirable to also generate code to fill the C++ objects using DOM or SAX API, but it seems more difficult
- it's also possible (another project!) to parse C++ declarations and generate an XML Schema ; could a round-trip be possible ?



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From vilya at nag.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 10:17:28 2000
From: vilya at nag.co.uk (Vilya Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <3886E103.A705875@nag.co.uk>

Steven Champeon wrote:
> > 2. No-one else seems interested in the fact that app dev is moving
> > this way. I have been told that the next version of Netscape won't
> > offer support for XML and XSL - at least that is hte case for the
> > current test version.
>
> Hm. If you're referring to Mozilla, I recommend that you download it
> again. They've had some very cool XML+DOM-driven test stuff as part of
> the standard distro for several of the more recent milestone versions.
> As for XSL support in the client, you're right:
> 
>  http://www.mozilla.org/newlayout/faq.html#cssnotxsl
> 
> The rationale is sensible, IMHO.

This part of the FAQ is somewhat out of date. XSLT became an official W3C
Recommendation on November 16th last year, so it's no longer "in the
future"; and there *is* currently work underway to add XSLT into Mozilla
[1].

> Frankly, I'm thinking of XSL as a server-side technology, especially so
> given that XSLT has roughly the same format and function (though with
> XML->XML translations rather than XML->HTML translations).

You seem a little confused as to what XSL and XSLT actually are. XSLT is
the part of XSL which specifies a document transformation language; it
includes both XML->XML and XML->HTML transformations. XSL adds a
formatting & rendering model specification, along with an XML expression
of that (called formatting objects). Have a look at the W3C's XSL pages[2]
for more information.


Vil.
[1] http://lxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/extensions/transformiix/
[2] http://www.w3.org/Style/XSL/
-- 
Vilya Harvey  <vilya@nag.co.uk>    Wilkinson House  Mob: +44  961 106 505
Computational Mathematics Group   Jordan Hill Road   Wk: +44 1865 511 245
NAG Limited                    Oxford  UK  OX2 8DR  Fax: +44 1865 311 205

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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 10:47:05 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA415@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


Tyler, 
   
:  If you think about the early days of the web browser, many 
:  people said it was too hard to
:  use for the average internet user and that the internet web 
:  browser was only for techies.
:  Well the web browser since the days of Mosaic really has not 
:  come along very far from what
:  it did then and what is does now, yet many millions of 
:  people learn how to "surf" the web
:  in only a few hours. The core technology and user interface 
:  did not change significantly,
:  but the mass perception of the technology and user interface 
:  changed from something that
:  only rocket scientists could understand to something as easy 
:  as using a remote control.

It's difficult to agree that a mass perception shift has changed the
difficulty of web interfaces. Instead one might argue that the perceived
value of the Web has increased to the extent that people are willing to put
the effort into learning the interface sufficiently well to use it. The web
is not an easy place for non-technical users (read: people whose primary
interest isn't some form of computing), and needs much work to make it so.
In this context originality has limited value, unless you've got a good idea
for keeping it simple. or making something that people 'must have', such as
shopping or banking. Dave Winer's 'edit this page' is just that, for his
target of content authors. 


:  Of course when the VCR first came out, many people thought 
:  that using it was a complicated
:  task that only techie masters could ever understand, but 
:  somehow over the years even
:  though the same buttons are there, everyone including 4 year 
:  olds know how to use a VCR.

Lets qualify 'use a VCR'. If you're talking about playing a video, fine. But
many people have problems even with recording in real time. And as for timed
recordings and other advanced features, very few people use these. The
usability problems with VCR's are a well known in 3D design (read: cliche),
the definitive example of a cool product that people can't or won't use to
its full extent. With VCR's the value of learning how to do all that timing
stuff just isn't enough. But then again most products are feature driven,
not use driven. I'm including software here, especially browsers and
officeware. 


:  The idea of new types of user interfaces being "too" 
:  complicated is often a case of people
:  not having enough faith in people to learn new things. The 
:  entire world has been stuck in
:  WIMP land for over 20 years because firms and software 
:  companies are too afraid to go over
:  the head of their users.

Yes and many people still find these interfaces difficult to use. WIMP
interfaces are over the heads of many users already. WIMP in the abstract is
fine, but I have to learn a new interface for almost every piece of software
I use. WIMP is a concept not a standard. Even moving from Netscape to IE is
a pain. Anyone for interface namespaces? UI's today are like old old cars,
when each manufacturer had a different layout.

I'm not questioning the intelligence or ability of software users. I'm
saying that to apply their intelligence to  continuously changing software,
means learning interfaces again and again, which is a patent waste of their
time. And if it doesn't have 'that value thing', well...

  
:  P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford 
:  to upgrade their 486 to a
:  modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest 
:  version of Navigator or IE, the
:  chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online 
:  anyways because the don't even
:  have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.

Quite.  


Regards,

Bill

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From abisheks at india.hp.com  Thu Jan 20 11:06:11 2000
From: abisheks at india.hp.com (Abhishek Srivastava)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:24 2004
Subject: XML Schema --> C++
References: <C125686C.0035564C.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>
Message-ID: <000a01bf6336$44e49c80$252f0a0f@india.hp.com>

I also want to auto generate code of a c++ class that could contain the data
of an XML file.
I tried to create one but found it very complex as the DTD can have

1. any level of nested elements and aggregates.
2. Elements and attributes can optional.
3. The OR conditions that are specified in the DTD.

Is it possible we have something like a IDL compiler ? the idl compiler
reads the IDL file and generates C++ classes that can be used to implement
that object. Can a utility read a DTD or a schema and auto generate the code
for a C++ class.

This utility will be very useful, as many legacy systems do not understand
the DOM tree or xml... so in order to reuse the legacy code the data from
the dom tree needs to be put in a regular c++ object and fed to the legacy
system and the output from a C++ object converted to xml and then sent over
the web.

If an effort is started to write such a utility what other complexities
might arise ?

regards,
Abhishek.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Marc VANEL" <jean-marc_vanel@effix.fr>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>; <xml-dev-ig%PMDF%MHMAIL@mr.effix.fr>; "tcs-infra"
<tcs-infra@effix.fr>; "Madjid OUTENAH" <m_outenah@effix.fr>;
<s_durfort@mailhub.effix.fr>; <j_lolieux@mailhub.effix.fr>;
<f_clerc@mailhub.effix.fr>; <thomas_moutel@effix.fr>; <d_asseline@effix.fr>;
<guy_dauchet@effix.fr>; "Sonia BILLINGS" <s_billings@effix.fr>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: XML Schema --> C++


>
>
> Hello
>
> I want to try to generate C++ class declarations from an XML Schema .
>
> Something like:
>
> <template select = '//type' >
>   class <value-of select="@name"/> {
>    <apply-templates/>
>   };
> </template>
>
> <template select = '//element' >
>   <value-of select="@type"/> <value-of select="@name"/> ;
> </template>
>
> Remarks:
> - not yet tested
> - as writen this would generate embeded classes
> - ID's and IDREF's would map to void* and list<void*>
> - same principle could be applied to Java etc
> - it is desirable to also generate code to fill the C++ objects using DOM
or SAX API, but it seems more difficult
> - it's also possible (another project!) to parse C++ declarations and
generate an XML Schema ; could a round-trip be possible ?
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>
>


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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 11:06:47 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD560@SENMAIL3>

>Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs for
>there to be more than one browser.  -T.

Aye, but try developing applications for users in Scotland (and we have
several US offices).
When the business suddenly says "everyone must be able to use it", you
suddenly have to score out a whole load of technologies and the development
either takes a lot longer (justify that to the guy paying) or just doesn't
work that well for users.

Don't get me wrong, I would not like any one company to dominate, as
competitiveness = innovation, but surely they could all argue their
"standards" to produce one really good browser. After all, the W3C are able
to do it.

cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone 
Glasgow, Scotland
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 04:47
> To:	Don Park; 'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> At 08:15 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Don Park wrote:
> >I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
> >one browser to support.
> 
> Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs
> for
> there to be more than one browser.  -T.
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 11:09:47 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD561@SENMAIL3>

>User inteface design is now based on the convenience for the programmer? 

Well, in the commerial world it has to be - as much as I would like to to be
for our convenience.

I was about to say do you prefer using DOS or windows ... until i remembered
what list I am on ;-)

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 02:51
> To:	Steven Livingstone
> Cc:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	Re: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> At 12:52 AM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone wrote:
> 
> > I am talking about Application dev right enough - content is likely
> >different !?
> 
> 
> User inteface design is now based on the convenience for the programmer? 
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.

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From bd at internet-etc.com  Thu Jan 20 12:15:13 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <000301bf633f$20eaa000$5cd65c8b@p300>

And of course, Microsoft will leap at the chance to open their source code
to us all...

This just moves the problem into the politcal arena.  If I was the Chinese
government, I'd want something in it which enabled me to track who you were
and what you did.  I suppose the Dubai government would too, since you can
get 5 years jail in Dubai for reading the CNN web site.

What level of encryption should it support?  US government restricts
key-length, while Sweden believes it is a universal truth that ALL
information should be available to everyone, while in the UK, the police
assume encyrption is only ever needed if you're committing a crime.

Next, of course, if I'm Microsoft (or Netscape) I "support" the open source
by pushing for features which enhance the appeal of my proprietary systems
and the cost of my competitors.  Look what's happening in W3C now, some of
the XML proposals are there simply to counter-act some competitor's
proposals.

Trust to the chaotic anarchy of the net, if there's a need, someone will
eventually fill it.  In the early days of any new technological revolution
the field is always dominated by a few big boys who got there first.  But it
never lasts.  Microsoft is really alot like Ford was in the 20's.  For most
people then a "car" was a Model T, and "you could have any color, so long as
it was black", as the saying goes.  20 years later and there were hundreds
of models from dozens of manufacturers.

Give it time...

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Don Park
>Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:16 AM
>To: 'XML Dev'
>Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
>one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
>'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
>into public domain.  A non-profit open source organization
>could be setup to coordinate merging of Mozilla and IE into a
>universal browser and beyond.
>
>Effects of such an event to W3C is somewhat difficult to guage
>though.
>
>Best,
>
>Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
>Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
>mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as:
>http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
>981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
>for transfer to OASIS.
>
>


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From mah at oxiasoft.com  Thu Jan 20 12:13:27 2000
From: mah at oxiasoft.com (Hemissi Maher)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <002101bf6329$f9dbbe00$100a0a0a@mah>

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 12:28:09 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD57B@SENMAIL3>

>and the cost of my competitors.  Look what's happening in W3C now, some of
>the XML proposals are there simply to counter-act some competitor's
>proposals.

Yes, but the point is thet W3C are there to cotrol this and produce a single
standard from the submissions.

>Microsoft is really alot like Ford was in the 20's.  For most
>people then a "car" was a Model T, and "you could have any color, so long
as
>it was black", as the saying goes. 

Are you suggesting having 20 different types of browser woudl be a good
thing?
I wouldn't want a single super-car (well, I can't drive so most people
wouldn't want me in it anyway), but I wouldn't mind a single browser made up
of everyones opinions and controlled by a consortium. Yes, I know the W3C
try to do this anyway, but I mean a commercial consortium to control NS and
MS (and anyone else i forgot).

cheers,
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Brandt Dainow [SMTP:bd@internet-etc.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 10:45
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> And of course, Microsoft will leap at the chance to open their source code
> to us all...
> 
> This just moves the problem into the politcal arena.  If I was the Chinese
> government, I'd want something in it which enabled me to track who you
> were
> and what you did.  I suppose the Dubai government would too, since you can
> get 5 years jail in Dubai for reading the CNN web site.
> 
> What level of encryption should it support?  US government restricts
> key-length, while Sweden believes it is a universal truth that ALL
> information should be available to everyone, while in the UK, the police
> assume encyrption is only ever needed if you're committing a crime.
> 
> Next, of course, if I'm Microsoft (or Netscape) I "support" the open
> source
> by pushing for features which enhance the appeal of my proprietary systems
> and the cost of my competitors.  Look what's happening in W3C now, some of
> the XML proposals are there simply to counter-act some competitor's
> proposals.
> 
> Trust to the chaotic anarchy of the net, if there's a need, someone will
> eventually fill it.  In the early days of any new technological revolution
> the field is always dominated by a few big boys who got there first.  But
> it
> never lasts.  Microsoft is really alot like Ford was in the 20's.  For
> most
> people then a "car" was a Model T, and "you could have any color, so long
> as
> it was black", as the saying goes.  20 years later and there were hundreds
> of models from dozens of manufacturers.
> 
> Give it time...
> 
> Brandt Dainow
> bd@internet-etc.com
> Internet Etc Ltd
> http://www.internet-etc.com
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
> >Behalf Of
> >Don Park
> >Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:16 AM
> >To: 'XML Dev'
> >Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> >
> >
> >I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
> >one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
> >'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
> >into public domain.  A non-profit open source organization
> >could be setup to coordinate merging of Mozilla and IE into a
> >universal browser and beyond.
> >
> >Effects of such an event to W3C is somewhat difficult to guage
> >though.
> >
> >Best,
> >
> >Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
> >Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com
> >
> >
> >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> >mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> >Archived as:
> >http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> >981-02-3594-1
> >Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
> >for transfer to OASIS.
> >
> >
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 12:39:40 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675246@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Steven Livingstone wrote,
> Are you suggesting having 20 different types of browser woudl
> be a good thing? I wouldn't want a single super-car (well, I 
> can't drive so most people wouldn't want me in it anyway), 
> but I wouldn't mind a single browser made up of everyones 
> opinions and controlled by a consortium.

Can't, won't and shouldn't happen. It's simply not possible to
design a single browser that'd be suitable for all of
desktop PC, handhelds, mobile phones, digital TVs, non-visual
devices (speech input, aural output) ... etc. etc.

Nor, for that matter, is it likely to be easy to design
content which would be suitable for all those media.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From ksh at dretec.com  Thu Jan 20 12:55:01 2000
From: ksh at dretec.com (Kieran O'Shea)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Generating Drop Down HTML tags with XSL
Message-ID: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC03@jupiter.dretec.com>

Hi,

	Is there anyway of creating  a dropdown html menu using XSL (Option,
Value). The Menu information will be stored
in the XML document calling this XSL stylesheet ?

	Can Javascript in XSL access the html code it contains ?


	Can JavaScript in XSL access the DOM object for the XML document
that calls it ?




					Kieran O'Shea

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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 13:02:24 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000119204700.014dbb70@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEDBEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

HI Tim,

Tim said:
Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs for
there to be more than one browser.  -T.

Didier replies:
Me too Tim. But I have to admit that the landscape is not very promising to
get more than one.

a) Netscape is no more pursuing the innovation war that they where doing and
if you look closely to the Netscape Browser and IE, it is clear that one is
evolving and the other is stagnant. On the side of Mozilla, the development
time is bigger than expected but the feature set interesting. It remains now
to see, if this could be brought to the market (I hope with all my hart that
it will).

b) W3C by having different style languages like XSLT/XSL, CSS just increased
the cost of development and thus created a huge barrier of entry for any new
competitor. This, W3C created a barrier of entry for newcomers and only
corporation with a lot of resources can make it.

c) Now the Web as it became main stream is becoming more and more resistant
to change and the player in place share the pie. Again, the market dynamics
make it hard for newcomers.

And so on and so forth...

So, even if me too I would passionately believe that more than one browser
should be there and that competition drives innovation. But I have to admit
that several forces and some of them created by W3C just make the opposite
effect, to favor big guys with deep pockets and impose more and more
barriers of entries to newcomers.

PS: the spellchecker joke of the week. The Outlook spellchecker wants always
to replace the word W3C by WACO :-)))

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 13:09:07 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000119204700.014dbb70@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <049301bf6347$82fba160$1918ccce@murphy>

>>Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the Internet needs
for
there to be more than one browser.  -T.

Agreed. Strong agreement.

Dave


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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 13:51:02 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Generating Drop Down HTML tags with XSL
In-Reply-To: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC03@jupiter.dretec.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEDDEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Kiera,

Kiera said:
	Is there anyway of creating  a dropdown html menu using XSL (Option,
Value). The Menu information will be stored
in the XML document calling this XSL stylesheet ?

	Can Javascript in XSL access the html code it contains ?


	Can JavaScript in XSL access the DOM object for the XML document
that calls it ?

Didier replies:
Yes you can if you create an XSLT style sheet that will transform the XML
document into HTML and this latter contains a script. You can use the XML
elements as data source for your script and have the script use the DOM. Be
cautious however since Netscape and Microsoft have different APIs.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan 20 13:58:43 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: SAX2: pull interface
In-Reply-To: Steinar Bang's message of "19 Jan 2000 18:00:53 +0100"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675227@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <m3ln5n6t9e.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <wh4scaq9mi.fsf@viffer.metis.no>
Message-ID: <m3g0vsvoai.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Steinar Bang <sb@metis.no> writes:

> >>>>> David Megginson <david@megginson.com>:
> 
> > Personally, I like recursive-descent a lot (and probably wouldn't
> > have finished writing the original AElfred parser otherwise).  Miles
> > guesses correctly that SAX1 was push to accommodate existing
> > parsers.
> 
> Doesn't recursive descent parsers have a problem with partial input
> received from the net?  Don't you have to buffer up the entire file
> before you start parsing?

Not per se, but most RD parsers will block waiting for the rest of the
input rather than returning control to the caller.  That's not a
problem with multiple threads, but it's sometimes very inconvenient in 
a single-threaded environment.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From KenB at bristol.com  Thu Jan 20 14:03:05 2000
From: KenB at bristol.com (KenB)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: XML Schema --> C++
Message-ID: <8525686C.004D4DC2.00@bristolhq.bristol.com>

We just finished the first release of a product to help with this problem.
http://www.bristol.com/exactml

It did turn out to be a much bigger undertaking that we originally estimated.
Especially because we chose to support both DTDs and the draft schema
spec from the outset.  We had to write a complete DTD parser for the reasons
outlined below.  Was not a monumental effort, but not trivial either.

--ken

---------------------- Forwarded by KenB/Bristol Technology on 01/20/2000 09:04
AM ---------------------------
                                                                  
 (Embedded                                                        
 image moved   "Abhishek Srivastava" <abisheks@india.hp.com>      
 to file:      01/20/2000 06:05 AM                                
 pic32485.pcx)                                                    
                                                                  



Please respond to "Abhishek Srivastava" <abisheks@india.hp.com>
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To:      xml-dev@ic.ac.uk                                    
                                                              
 cc:      (bcc: KenB/Bristol Technology)                      
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: XML Schema --> C++                              
                                                              






I also want to auto generate code of a c++ class that could contain the data
of an XML file.
I tried to create one but found it very complex as the DTD can have

1. any level of nested elements and aggregates.
2. Elements and attributes can optional.
3. The OR conditions that are specified in the DTD.

Is it possible we have something like a IDL compiler ? the idl compiler
reads the IDL file and generates C++ classes that can be used to implement
that object. Can a utility read a DTD or a schema and auto generate the code
for a C++ class.

This utility will be very useful, as many legacy systems do not understand
the DOM tree or xml... so in order to reuse the legacy code the data from
the dom tree needs to be put in a regular c++ object and fed to the legacy
system and the output from a C++ object converted to xml and then sent over
the web.

If an effort is started to write such a utility what other complexities
might arise ?

regards,
Abhishek.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jean Marc VANEL" <jean-marc_vanel@effix.fr>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>; <xml-dev-ig%PMDF%MHMAIL@mr.effix.fr>; "tcs-infra"
<tcs-infra@effix.fr>; "Madjid OUTENAH" <m_outenah@effix.fr>;
<s_durfort@mailhub.effix.fr>; <j_lolieux@mailhub.effix.fr>;
<f_clerc@mailhub.effix.fr>; <thomas_moutel@effix.fr>; <d_asseline@effix.fr>;
<guy_dauchet@effix.fr>; "Sonia BILLINGS" <s_billings@effix.fr>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:12 PM
Subject: XML Schema --> C++


>
>
> Hello
>
> I want to try to generate C++ class declarations from an XML Schema .
>
> Something like:
>
> <template select = '//type' >
>   class <value-of select="@name"/> {
>    <apply-templates/>
>   };
> </template>
>
> <template select = '//element' >
>   <value-of select="@type"/> <value-of select="@name"/> ;
> </template>
>
> Remarks:
> - not yet tested
> - as writen this would generate embeded classes
> - ID's and IDREF's would map to void* and list<void*>
> - same principle could be applied to Java etc
> - it is desirable to also generate code to fill the C++ objects using DOM
or SAX API, but it seems more difficult
> - it's also possible (another project!) to parse C++ declarations and
generate an XML Schema ; could a round-trip be possible ?
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
to OASIS.
>
>


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From rbunis at is.hhsys.org  Thu Jan 20 14:16:26 2000
From: rbunis at is.hhsys.org (Rich Bunis)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <011a01bf6351$94754f40$b7baa8c0@hhsys.int>

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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 14:51:25 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:25 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <388689DD.46EF@hiwaay.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>

At 10:06 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>Ann Navarro wrote:
>> 
>
>> There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
>> that it should be "required" to use.
>
>> Your conclusions are highly debatable.
>
>But the barriers aren't artificial. 

Sure they are. The minute you say "you must use <arbitrary browser/software
here>" for an application being served over a medium that was designed to
be machine/platform/software independent, you've created an artificial
barrier. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 14:49:23 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38868765.6E22767@infinet.com>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
 <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>
 <046d01bf62f4$cc9dd020$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120094240.044e2460@216.65.70.29>

At 10:56 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:

>The idea of new types of user interfaces being "too" complicated is often a 
>case of people
>not having enough faith in people to learn new things. 

No one's arguing that such menus are "too complicated". But when over half
the installed software base doesn't support them, that's generally a poor
design decision. 


>P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade 
>their 486 to a
>modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of Navigator 
>or IE, the
>chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways because 
>the don't even
>have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.


Faulty assumption. Not all users who run something other than IE5 are
"poor" people who run "ancient" 486 machines. 

They're often corporate users with strict IT policies about what software
is run -- and it's not the software of YOUR choosing. They're educational
users and other institutional situations. 
They are people like me, who spend tens of thousands of dollars online a
year, between myself and the two businesses I purchase for, who simply
prefer a different browser, and won't launch another one just so your nifty
little menus will work. If you make it hard for me, you simply won't get
the sale. 

I forget who ran the commercial, but it was about a business interviewing
to outsource their web presence. Two very young, geeky guys were giving a
presentation, laughing about how the technology would be obsolete as soon
as they left the room, but that was ok, because they could come back on a
new contract. That they'd use <this spiff thing> on the web site, because,
hey, that's cool. Ah, now I remember, it was FedEx, because the tagline was
"but you always ship FedEx". 

Developers who insist that the newest innovation is somehow critical to the
product or application are alot like those guys -- you don't develop
applications for clients and for the general public based primarily on what
entertains YOU or relies on cutting edge software that is used mostly by
other developers (same in web design, most users don't have 1024x768 or
higher resolutions on 19 inch monitors -- so an argument of "it looks best
for ME like this" holds no water). 

Play and innovate on demo-ware, or in arenas where you truly CAN control
the environment, but doing so elsewhere is self-indulgent at the expense of
the client/audience. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 14:52:39 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.hom
 e.com>
References: <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29>

At 08:15 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Don Park wrote:
>I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
>one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
>'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
>into public domain.  

If there were only 2 browsers in the world, that rather unlikely scenario
might work. 
But at last count there were hundreds.

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ivan_a_gonzalez at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 15:11:34 2000
From: ivan_a_gonzalez at yahoo.com (Ivan Gonzalez)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Unsubscribe xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From elharo at metalab.unc.edu  Thu Jan 20 15:26:10 2000
From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy>
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
 <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net>
 <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy> <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net>
 <039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <v04210103b4accec87476@[192.168.1.254]>

Dave Winer wrote:

>We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
>There are two types of developers in the world:
>
>1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
>at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
>handler, that specific one.

These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less than 50% 
of the current installed base. Even within that subset, users have 
different fonts, different default window sizes, different monitors, 
etc., etc., etc. Competent  developers who understand the Web know 
how to design without limiting themselves to the 1% or less of the 
market that has web browsers set up exactly like their development 
system.

Or perhaps these developers are simply arrogant and don't care about 
their users. I've certainly met enough unreconstructed artists who 
couldn't make a living at art, printed some new business cards, and 
now call themselves web designers. But they don't really care whether 
or not anyone can use their site as long as they maintain the purity 
of their artistic vision.  In fact a lot of these egotists get a kick 
out of doing something that the masses can't see. They think that 
means they're cool or cutting edge. (I think it means they're 
idiots.) Sites that really want to communicate with readers like 
amazon.com or the W3C site don't rely on fancy tricks that aren't 
accessible to the masses.

I saw an interesting quote on your site today, Dave. Here it is:


Jeremy Bowers has the neatest Manila trick I've seen. You can expand 
and collapse items on his home page, day by day. Apparently Jeremy's 
site crashes Mac browsers. Some Mac users think we should only use 
features that work on Macs. Someday the Mac will catch up and we'll 
want to know how to do this stuff. Enough waiting. Buy Macs as web 
browsing machines with your eyes open. You won't be able to use all 
the sites on the web, until Apple catches up.


You actually seem to think it's acceptable to publish a web site that 
crashes users' browsers! This is the height of hubris. You want every 
one to change their computers and browsers so they're exactly like 
yours. And if they don't, then they deserve it if they crash. How 
obnoxious can you get?

Now, I would say that it's first the responsibility of the browser 
not to crash no matter what; and of the operating system to make sure 
that a misbehaving application doesn't bring down other apps or the 
OS. Nonetheless, if I know that my site is exercising a bug in a 
browser, I will work around it, one way or another.

Leaving that aside, I'll give you a practical example. You, Dave 
Winer, Userland, have lost business because your site doesn't work in 
all browsers. Personally, I think you're an interesting (if 
occasionally frustrating) guy, and I like reading what you have to 
say. But probably 50% of the time I try to follow a link from 
scripting.com deeper into your site or an Edit-This-Page site, 
something goes wrong. Eventually I learned to stop following links 
that go to your own site. It probably won't surprise you that most of 
the time I'm reading from Netscape on a Mac. No big deal, you can 
write me off by telling me to buy a PC, or for that matter, to use 
the PC I already own. I won't do that. It interferes with my work 
flow. You're not that important to me.

Now what impact has this had on you and Userland? Directly, not much; 
but indirectly the effect has been huge. It so happens I've written 
what is right now the bestselling introductory text on XML, which 
thousands of people a month are using to learn what XML is and what 
it can do. Do you know how many times Frontier, XML-RPC and all the 
other interesting things you've been doing with XML are mentioned in 
that book? Zero, nil, nada, not once. Why? Because although I 
considered writing a chapter about XML-RPC or whatever you were 
calling it a few months ago, I knew that I couldn't reliably get 
through to all the crucial information on your site. So I wrote about 
something else instead. No big deal for me or my readers. There are 
lots of exciting things going on with XML that I can write about 
instead. But it's a big deal for you. (Well maybe not a big deal, but 
I suspect it's ultimately worth a few sales to you).

I also run one of the five most popular XML news sites on the web. I 
do occasionally mention XML-RPC or other ideas you've had, but not 
nearly as much as I would if your site were actually reliable. In 
fact the most common thing you'll find about you and your products on 
my site is a quote from you, because I can do that in pure HTML on my 
site without worrying about whether your site will be accessible to 
my readers. (My site, by the way, should be accessible to everyone 
from Netscape 1.1 up. If it's not, I consider it a bug.)

Who else are you losing Dave? Maybe not many people, but maybe more 
than you think and maybe some key ones. Back around 1995 I clearly 
remember demoing a site to a potential client and watching with 
horror as he pulled up his browser, some  custom version of Spry 
Mosaic which couldn't handle the tables we used on our demo site. 
Maybe everyone else in his company was using Netscape (which had 
about 90% of the market at the time) but we lost the sale 
nonetheless. After that I quickly learned to test all my sites in 
Mosaic. I may not do that any more but I damn sure test them in 
Netscape 3 on a Mac and a lot of other browsers. I want readers to 
enjoy my site. I want them to come back to my site. I don't want 
their browsers to crash. And if that means I have to do a little 
extra work, or forego a few cool browser tricks, then so be it.


+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
|              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 15:35:26 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com><02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net><038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy> <38862B3C.72BC@hiwaay.net><039f01bf62c5$82737fb0$1918ccce@murphy> <v04210103b4accec87476@[192.168.1.254]>
Message-ID: <04f001bf635b$f35f5c30$1918ccce@murphy>

Hey, Elliotte, stop the name-calling, OK?

You're all over the map. The EditThisPage.Com webmasters run their own
sites. They're the ones that are teaching me about this stuff. I have no
control over what HTML they put in their templates, nor would I want to have
such control.

UserLand.Com sites should work in any browser above the 3.x level. If you're
having problems accessing those sites, then please report the problems.

The fact that you ignore XML-RPC is your loss and ours and your readers.
Shame on you for not raising these issues before. The technology is too
important to let it slip for such silly reasons. Now, if can you address me
in a respectful tone, we can get some work done here.

Thanks for listening.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Elliotte Rusty Harold" <elharo@metalab.unc.edu>
To: "Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com>
Cc: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:16 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> Dave Winer wrote:
>
> >We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
> >There are two types of developers in the world:
> >
> >1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users
look
> >at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any
content
> >handler, that specific one.
>
> These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less than 50%
> of the current installed base. Even within that subset, users have
> different fonts, different default window sizes, different monitors,
> etc., etc., etc. Competent  developers who understand the Web know
> how to design without limiting themselves to the 1% or less of the
> market that has web browsers set up exactly like their development
> system.
>
> Or perhaps these developers are simply arrogant and don't care about
> their users. I've certainly met enough unreconstructed artists who
> couldn't make a living at art, printed some new business cards, and
> now call themselves web designers. But they don't really care whether
> or not anyone can use their site as long as they maintain the purity
> of their artistic vision.  In fact a lot of these egotists get a kick
> out of doing something that the masses can't see. They think that
> means they're cool or cutting edge. (I think it means they're
> idiots.) Sites that really want to communicate with readers like
> amazon.com or the W3C site don't rely on fancy tricks that aren't
> accessible to the masses.
>
> I saw an interesting quote on your site today, Dave. Here it is:
>
>
> Jeremy Bowers has the neatest Manila trick I've seen. You can expand
> and collapse items on his home page, day by day. Apparently Jeremy's
> site crashes Mac browsers. Some Mac users think we should only use
> features that work on Macs. Someday the Mac will catch up and we'll
> want to know how to do this stuff. Enough waiting. Buy Macs as web
> browsing machines with your eyes open. You won't be able to use all
> the sites on the web, until Apple catches up.
>
>
> You actually seem to think it's acceptable to publish a web site that
> crashes users' browsers! This is the height of hubris. You want every
> one to change their computers and browsers so they're exactly like
> yours. And if they don't, then they deserve it if they crash. How
> obnoxious can you get?
>
> Now, I would say that it's first the responsibility of the browser
> not to crash no matter what; and of the operating system to make sure
> that a misbehaving application doesn't bring down other apps or the
> OS. Nonetheless, if I know that my site is exercising a bug in a
> browser, I will work around it, one way or another.
>
> Leaving that aside, I'll give you a practical example. You, Dave
> Winer, Userland, have lost business because your site doesn't work in
> all browsers. Personally, I think you're an interesting (if
> occasionally frustrating) guy, and I like reading what you have to
> say. But probably 50% of the time I try to follow a link from
> scripting.com deeper into your site or an Edit-This-Page site,
> something goes wrong. Eventually I learned to stop following links
> that go to your own site. It probably won't surprise you that most of
> the time I'm reading from Netscape on a Mac. No big deal, you can
> write me off by telling me to buy a PC, or for that matter, to use
> the PC I already own. I won't do that. It interferes with my work
> flow. You're not that important to me.
>
> Now what impact has this had on you and Userland? Directly, not much;
> but indirectly the effect has been huge. It so happens I've written
> what is right now the bestselling introductory text on XML, which
> thousands of people a month are using to learn what XML is and what
> it can do. Do you know how many times Frontier, XML-RPC and all the
> other interesting things you've been doing with XML are mentioned in
> that book? Zero, nil, nada, not once. Why? Because although I
> considered writing a chapter about XML-RPC or whatever you were
> calling it a few months ago, I knew that I couldn't reliably get
> through to all the crucial information on your site. So I wrote about
> something else instead. No big deal for me or my readers. There are
> lots of exciting things going on with XML that I can write about
> instead. But it's a big deal for you. (Well maybe not a big deal, but
> I suspect it's ultimately worth a few sales to you).
>
> I also run one of the five most popular XML news sites on the web. I
> do occasionally mention XML-RPC or other ideas you've had, but not
> nearly as much as I would if your site were actually reliable. In
> fact the most common thing you'll find about you and your products on
> my site is a quote from you, because I can do that in pure HTML on my
> site without worrying about whether your site will be accessible to
> my readers. (My site, by the way, should be accessible to everyone
> from Netscape 1.1 up. If it's not, I consider it a bug.)
>
> Who else are you losing Dave? Maybe not many people, but maybe more
> than you think and maybe some key ones. Back around 1995 I clearly
> remember demoing a site to a potential client and watching with
> horror as he pulled up his browser, some  custom version of Spry
> Mosaic which couldn't handle the tables we used on our demo site.
> Maybe everyone else in his company was using Netscape (which had
> about 90% of the market at the time) but we lost the sale
> nonetheless. After that I quickly learned to test all my sites in
> Mosaic. I may not do that any more but I damn sure test them in
> Netscape 3 on a Mac and a lot of other browsers. I want readers to
> enjoy my site. I want them to come back to my site. I don't want
> their browsers to crash. And if that means I have to do a little
> extra work, or forego a few cool browser tricks, then so be it.
>
>
> +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
> | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
> +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
> |                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
> |              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
> |   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
> +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
> |  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
> |  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
> +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From rev-bob at gotc.com  Thu Jan 20 15:37:01 2000
From: rev-bob at gotc.com (rev-bob@gotc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <200001201038894.SM01084@Unknown.>

> > > We've had this discussion at length on my site, and reached a conclusion.
> > > There are two types of developers in the world:
> > >
> > > 1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
> > > at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
> > > handler, that specific one.

Any Web developer who is confident that he can "look at the content exactly as their 
users look at it" is either fooling himself or being perniciously exclusive in his coding 
practices.  Which are you?

WYSIWYG just isn't a viable concept where (X|HT|XHT)ML is concerned, and it 
never was; the notions of interoperability and WYSIWYG authoring are inherently 
opposed to each other.  The best you can do on the Web is make an educated guess - 
and I have news for you; "everyone's using IE5" just isn't even close to right.

Furthermore, why must a Web developer have exact-look control of their content?  
Granted, it'd be nice sometimes, but "must" just isn't warranted.  I get visitors using 
everything from Lynx to StarOffice to IE/NN - and no one view is going to show me 
what all those people are seeing.  Even if I get all those platforms running in my office 
(requiring a minimum of two Winboxes just for IE3 and IE4/5), I'll most likely have 
things configured differently than you will - and certainly some of my users will be 
making different config options.

That's why (X|HT|XHT)ML doesn't even try to give control at that fine a level.  
Markup is supposed to be semantic, or at least to give it a fair shot.  Once you hit that 
area, you can start applying styles logically and consistently, in an effort to provide a 
similar experience to all your users.  I do think the market is so diverse at this point that 
serious site development requires either some form of server-side scripting or extremely 
basic design - just to sort out who's using what or to decide that your design level is so 
basic that the UA doesn't matter.  I opt for the former, and iHTML gets high marks 
from me in that field.

> > > 2. Everyone else.

I noticed you didn't even try to guess which of these groups was larger, or by how 
much.  In my experience, #2 is by far the largest group of Web developers; the 
Exploderheads are barely even on the map in comparison.
 
> > > I could try to explain why this is so, but previous debates make me
> > > reluctant to try, so I won't.
>  
>   I will.  Reliability.  You are version bound for the
>  same reason the proprietary system gets good reliability numbers:  a
>  single codebase under version control and compiled by configurable
>  processes but predictable processes.  You use a named component.
>  Important.  It is named for the codebase; not the spec.

I'll let you in on a little secret - single codebase does not translate to single supported 
platform.  I have a single base of documents that gets compiled and uploaded as a dual 
base (HTML/XHTML) and is further customized at serve time according to the 
requesting UA.  Lynx gets some stuff a little different, and if you look at the style sheets 
for the XHTML code under Mozilla vs. IE5, you'll find that they change to suit the 
browser.  (Mozilla and IE use different mapping between CSS font sizes and the <font 
size=x> sizes, so getting a consistent result requires detecting which browser is in use 
and adjusting to use its mapping.)
 
>  Sniffer scripts??????

Required, IMO.  The above CSS-morph is just one example; Q is another that comes to 
mind.  ("Do I insert quote marks manually, or trust Q to do it?"  There's no one right 
answer - so use sniff-based server-side scripting to make sure that you can give each 
UA the right answer.  Yeah, it's work - but if you care about Getting It Right for your 
users, it's necessary.)

By the way, a request to the list.  If any of you have either IE 3.02a/Win9x or 
IE3.0/AOL4.0/Win3.1 installed somewhere, I would appreciate it if you could visit my 
site and let me know of any problems you encounter.  I'm seeing some strange things in 
my logs tied to these browsers and its interpretation of CSS, but I don't know if this 
translates to user problems...and without another box I can set up for IE3, I can't test it 
myself.  Just swing by http://www.gotc.com/hamm/index.html and let me know what 
you see, what time you visited, and - if you know - what IP you're coming from (so I 
can compare your input with the server logs for your visit); this would be extremely 
helpful.  As a checkpoint, you *should* see a paper-style background behind each 
"classified ad" on that page - specified via <div class> referencing an internal style sheet.



 Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
  Get Off The Cross!  | http://www.gotc.com/


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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 15:51:45 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEDHEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hello Ann,

Ann said:
Sure they are. The minute you say "you must use <arbitrary browser/software
here>" for an application being served over a medium that was designed to
be machine/platform/software independent, you've created an artificial
barrier.

Didier replies:
Ann, I am still trying to fully understand the implications of requiring
that document are to be able to be decoded in any browser. The reality being
that actually one browser is improving and that the others (a) either do not
have the money and resource to follow the W3C productivity (b) have the
money but are in a kind of limbo doing very little improvements. This all
implies that we have to target the least denominator. So, it also implies
that no progress is made, that the web reached a stagnant plateau. It also
implies that we may be in trouble to believe that XML will make it since not
all browsers will support XML before at certain time (couple years). This is
puzzling me.

>From a other point of view I guess that Len and Dave are right because
thinking of the web as an homogeneous entity is no longer true. There are
market segments, people who need different things, have different tools.
Seeing the Web as a huge melting pot is probably not the right way to see
it. This is an hypothesis but maybe, little by little the web will becomes
several webs. For instance, on my desktop I am part of the Real audio
network, part of the ICQ network. It seems that all these network providers
choused a different place to reside on my machine (the tray bar). I am also
part of other networks that are embedded in applications, in tools like for
instance Personal finance software. In fact, this latter embeds a browser
component but uses the most advanced features. Also, I am part of a new
bread of networks like destop.com, halfbrain.com. In this case, these guys
choused to used the most advanced features of browsers. I was using
desktop.com with a 28.8K modem and got really dragged by the slow reaction
of this service, but when I moved to cable modem, I got a totally different
experience. So, my guess is that the web melting pot utopia may lead the
place to the personalized network or something more targeted to the needs of
particular groups. This implies that their tools have to be different,
better, to be differentiated. The good point is that because most of these
tools are free, there is no market friction. So, if I cannot access these
features it is simply because I do not want to download these tools. Not
because I have not access to. I am obviously not talking here of people who
cannot access the information because of some physical limitations.

And on the other hand, I am surprised to see how some manufacturers having
big and deep pockets and doing everything to punch Microsoft at a federal
court do not help create some healthy competition to the Microsoft browser
by participating to the Mozilla project. They are often big mouth about Open
Software, standards, etc.. but with no real concrete actions. Waht would be
the cost for IBM or SUN to provide 5 developers each to the Mozilla project?
If you pay close attention, you'll see that most of the developers are
coming from Netscape or small group or individual that contributes to the
project. It is these people who can make it so that we have competition and
standard compliance. Also, how a small manufacturer can create a browser if
this is to be distributed as a free tool. I guess that the Opera people can
tell us how hard it is to struggle in that kind of market environment. So,
the SUNs and IBMs of this world do not help us to have the freedom of
choice. And the groups like Mozilla trying to make it so are struggling
getting the resources to make it so. It took nearly a decade for Linux to
become what it is today. Will it take a decade for Mozilla to become a
viable choice?

Funny world isn't it?

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 15:55:49 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEDJEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Ann,

Ann said:
If there were only 2 browsers in the world, that rather unlikely scenario
might work.
But at last count there were hundreds.

Didier replies:
Please Ann, include in your answer the market share of each and the reality
of the situation will become more obvious that the world is mostly dominated
now by Microsoft Explorer, then followed by Netscape which every day gets
its market share to shrink. Then, a plethora of 0.xx% market share browsers.
Numbers tell us the reality Ann. Statistically speaking there are two
browsers and one is getting more market share to the detriment of the other
every day.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 20 16:08:25 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEDJEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <200001201608.LAA09649@hesketh.net>

The browser wars discussions have finally reached these shores - XML-Dev -
in a virulent form.  Does this mean that XML is finally approaching
viability as a Web development technology?

This particular explosion hasn't appeared here before, perhaps because most
of us here who do Web development are tired of hearing about it on other
lists.

Personally, I think we need extensible browsers, not these big complex
sealed browsers we keep getting.  I'm hoping XHTML will help us toward that
path and make this whole discussion obsolete.

Any takers?
Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 16:11:50 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>

I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or application
developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce based sites for
me are in the main content based sites where you can click "buy-me" - not
applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple browser
types.

I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.

I am just out of a 2 hour meeting where we tried to follow in our previous
project *exactly* what you have been suggesting. They want these menu's to
ease navigation, they want different page looks depending on who they are,
they want help when they press F1 etc etc etc... This is more than 2000
people saying this.

In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.

>(same in web design, most users don't have 1024x768 or
>higher resolutions on 19 inch monitors -- so an argument of "it looks best
>for ME like this" holds no water). 

In this case you can get the screen resoliution at the client and display
your pages to fit.

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 14:51
> To:	Tyler Baker; Dave Winer
> Cc:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	Re: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> At 10:56 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
> 
> >The idea of new types of user interfaces being "too" complicated is often
> a 
> >case of people
> >not having enough faith in people to learn new things. 
> 
> No one's arguing that such menus are "too complicated". But when over half
> the installed software base doesn't support them, that's generally a poor
> design decision. 
> 
> 
> >P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade 
> >their 486 to a
> >modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of
> Navigator 
> >or IE, the
> >chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways
> because 
> >the don't even
> >have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.
> 
> 
> Faulty assumption. Not all users who run something other than IE5 are
> "poor" people who run "ancient" 486 machines. 
> 
> They're often corporate users with strict IT policies about what software
> is run -- and it's not the software of YOUR choosing. They're educational
> users and other institutional situations. 
> They are people like me, who spend tens of thousands of dollars online a
> year, between myself and the two businesses I purchase for, who simply
> prefer a different browser, and won't launch another one just so your
> nifty
> little menus will work. If you make it hard for me, you simply won't get
> the sale. 
> 
> I forget who ran the commercial, but it was about a business interviewing
> to outsource their web presence. Two very young, geeky guys were giving a
> presentation, laughing about how the technology would be obsolete as soon
> as they left the room, but that was ok, because they could come back on a
> new contract. That they'd use <this spiff thing> on the web site, because,
> hey, that's cool. Ah, now I remember, it was FedEx, because the tagline
> was
> "but you always ship FedEx". 
> 
> Developers who insist that the newest innovation is somehow critical to
> the
> product or application are alot like those guys -- you don't develop
> applications for clients and for the general public based primarily on
> what
> entertains YOU or relies on cutting edge software that is used mostly by
> other developers (same in web design, most users don't have 1024x768 or
> higher resolutions on 19 inch monitors -- so an argument of "it looks best
> for ME like this" holds no water). 
> 
> Play and innovate on demo-ware, or in arenas where you truly CAN control
> the environment, but doing so elsewhere is self-indulgent at the expense
> of
> the client/audience. 
> 
> Ann
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
> 
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education
> http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 16:13:37 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b4accec87476@[192.168.1.254]>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi

Elliotte said:
These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less than 50% ....

Didier replies:
To get an objective picture, do people can suggest sites having statistics
about browsers, I promise to make an average of all these numbers and
publish them back to the group. This way, we'll have a more objective base
for our thinking and we will resemble less to a parliament or a senate :-))

Cheers




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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 16:16:51 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120111827.04dcab80@216.65.70.29>

At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
>I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or application
>developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce based sites for
>me are in the main content based sites where you can click "buy-me" - not
>applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple browser
>types.
>
>I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
>because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.


No, I'm not missing the point. 

If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer, you're missing your
own point -- serving your customers. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 16:19:05 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <v04210103b4accec87476@[192.168.1.254]>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Eliotte,

[long post and answer to Dave...]

Didier replies:
Eliotte you made me think of something: the cost of publication and the type
of thing that can be on the web.

a) to test on all browsers increases publication cost or you have to find
the least common denominator to publish and not to use new features. Just
the minimum possible. This is a good strategy for maximum diffusion. This
also create a tremendous resistance to change and thus, like I said
previously, we are in big trouble with XML since the question now is: how
long will it take before we have enough XML browsers so that we are not
accused of being "not accessible".

b)Now what about the plethora of innovation that we are appearing now,
things like, desktop.com, halfbrain, etc that actually mostly work on IE
because Netscape still lag seriously when we speak of DHTM.

Yes Eliotte you made me think that the web will evolve at a much slower pace
now. Up to now, this was not the case with the old desktop paradigm.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 20 16:20:00 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEDJEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <200001201619.LAA10529@hesketh.net>

At 10:57 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Didier replies:
>Please Ann, include in your answer the market share of each and the reality
>of the situation will become more obvious that the world is mostly dominated
>now by Microsoft Explorer, then followed by Netscape which every day gets
>its market share to shrink. Then, a plethora of 0.xx% market share browsers.
>Numbers tell us the reality Ann. Statistically speaking there are two
>browsers and one is getting more market share to the detriment of the other
>every day.

I wouldn't forget Opera, there.  It's a tiny part of my site traffic, but
many of the reader comments I've gotten have been Opera-specific.

About 75% of my site traffic is IE 4 or 5.  Personally, I always see it in
Netscape.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 16:22:22 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD596@SENMAIL3>

>If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer, you're missing your
>own point -- serving your customers. 

Did I not say about the users .... 
<quote>
In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
</quote>

???

cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 16:19
> To:	Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM; 'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
> >I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or
> application
> >developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce based sites
> for
> >me are in the main content based sites where you can click "buy-me" - not
> >applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple
> browser
> >types.
> >
> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
> 
> 
> No, I'm not missing the point. 
> 
> If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer, you're missing your
> own point -- serving your customers. 
> 
> Ann
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
> 
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education
> http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
> 
> 
> 

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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 20 16:39:43 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:26 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000120163857.27694.qmail@hotmail.com>

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 16:39:53 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59D@SENMAIL3>

This is useful ...
Browser Flavors
 Browser Flavors                  Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. Microsoft                     7245  60.3
  2. Netscape                      4332  36.1
  3. other                          436   3.6
Microsoft Explorer Versions
 Version                     MSIE Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. v5                            4581  63.2
  2. v4                            2330  32.2
  3. v3                             213   2.9
  4. v2                             116   1.6
  5. other                            5    .1
 

Source : http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 04:15
> To:	'XML Dev'; Elliotte Rusty Harold
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> Hi
> 
> Elliotte said:
> These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less than 50% ....
> 
> Didier replies:
> To get an objective picture, do people can suggest sites having statistics
> about browsers, I promise to make an average of all these numbers and
> publish them back to the group. This way, we'll have a more objective base
> for our thinking and we will resemble less to a parliament or a senate
> :-))
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 20 16:39:45 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000120163910.27788.qmail@hotmail.com>

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 16:44:00 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59E@SENMAIL3>

I would love the idea of extensible and layerd browsers so that you could
apply the necessary layers to PC's, handhelds, toasters and all the other
types mentioned previosly.

I look forward to seeing it ;-)

cheers,
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Simon St.Laurent [SMTP:simonstl@simonstl.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 16:09
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	Extensible browsers
> 
> The browser wars discussions have finally reached these shores - XML-Dev -
> in a virulent form.  Does this mean that XML is finally approaching
> viability as a Web development technology?
> 
> This particular explosion hasn't appeared here before, perhaps because
> most
> of us here who do Web development are tired of hearing about it on other
> lists.
> 
> Personally, I think we need extensible browsers, not these big complex
> sealed browsers we keep getting.  I'm hoping XHTML will help us toward
> that
> path and make this whole discussion obsolete.
> 
> Any takers?
> Simon St.Laurent
> XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
> Building XML Applications
> Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
> Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
> http://www.simonstl.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 16:47:04 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <200001201038894.SM01084@Unknown.>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEDMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

 Rev. Robert L. Hood  said:
By the way, a request to the list.  If any of you have either IE 3.02a/Win9x
or
IE3.0/AOL4.0/Win3.1 installed somewhere, I would appreciate it if you could
visit my
site and let me know of any problems you encounter.  I'm seeing some strange
things in
my logs tied to these browsers and its interpretation of CSS, but I don't
know if this
translates to user problems...and without another box I can set up for IE3,
I can't test it
myself.  Just swing by http://www.gotc.com/hamm/index.html and let me know
what
you see, what time you visited, and - if you know - what IP you're coming
from (so I
can compare your input with the server logs for your visit); this would be
extremely
helpful.  As a checkpoint, you *should* see a paper-style background behind
each
"classified ad" on that page - specified via <div class> referencing an
internal style sheet.

Didier replies:
A living proof of increased costs of publication to adapt to the real
diversity up there :-)) . So behind the word browser the reality is more
that the word browser = {Lynx, Mosaic, IE3.x, IS4.x, IE 5.x, Netscape3.x,
Netscape 4.x, Opera, etc..etc..}

You know how we call that, don't you? Portability. So the real struggle is
to make your document as portable as possible and still appealing to your
target audience. Some will be audacious and others conservative. That's it,
we are a parliament with audacious and conservative :-)))
audacious will try to make it as much different as possible but act as real
gamblers in the process (they may loose a part of the audience),
conservative will make it accessible as possible but won't take any chances
(they may bore a part of the audience).

Who said that the map is not the territory? Koribsky I guess (maybe I
misspelled his name). And who said that members of the audacious party do
not have the same opera glasses than the members of the conservative party
have? Nobody? OK I said that :-)))

Maybe I am getting older but sound to me that this is the same story, the
members of the audacious party do not like the status quo, they want new
things, but they take sometime too much changes (but make the world to move
finally) and the members of the conservative party want things to stay the
same. Hoops I forgot the third party: the pragmatic their motto is "show
that it works" and "if it works don't break it".
Was that Geoffrey Moore that divided the market into the "early adopters,
the visionaries, the pragmatics, the followers and the laggards" so I guess
that we also have these market divisions among us XML-developers on top of
our XML-dev party affiliation :-))) :-))) I know, I know, I tend to see
things through the funny side of the opera glasses.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk  Thu Jan 20 16:48:31 2000
From: d.d.barnes at ic.ac.uk (David DS Barnes)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
References: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29> <200001201608.LAA09649@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <38872E42.8AF820B8@ic.ac.uk>

refreshing :)

David

"Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> 
> The browser wars discussions have finally reached these shores - XML-Dev -
> in a virulent form.  Does this mean that XML is finally approaching
> viability as a Web development technology?
> 
> This particular explosion hasn't appeared here before, perhaps because most
> of us here who do Web development are tired of hearing about it on other
> lists.
> 
> Personally, I think we need extensible browsers, not these big complex
> sealed browsers we keep getting.  I'm hoping XHTML will help us toward that
> path and make this whole discussion obsolete.
> 
> Any takers?
> Simon St.Laurent
> XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
> Building XML Applications
> Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
> Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
> http://www.simonstl.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 16:53:12 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <4.1.20000120111827.04dcab80@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <053e01bf6366$d0262cc0$1918ccce@murphy>

Ann Ann Ann, it's not for the convenience of the developer.

It's feature-driven by users. They keep asking the web to do things that
apps do, as Steven has been saying.

That's the world I live in. There's money in it, big big money. It's the
money that's driving us in this direction.

Now, you may not like money, that's your right, but my shareholders do,
that's why they ponied up the big bucks, and so am I.

So we go go go.

We spent *years* listening to the whining complaints of people who say Don't
go don't go.

Enough!!

These are not browser wars, Simon. Those were over a long time ago.

AOL owns Netscape and Time Warner.

XML? That's excellent if it makes it easier and more beautiful.

Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ann Navarro" <ann@webgeek.com>
To: "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" <steven.livingstone@scotent.co.uk>;
"'XML Dev'" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 8:18 AM
Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C


> At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
> >I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or
application
> >developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce based sites
for
> >me are in the main content based sites where you can click "buy-me" - not
> >applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple
browser
> >types.
> >
> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
>
>
> No, I'm not missing the point.
>
> If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer, you're missing your
> own point -- serving your customers.
>
> Ann
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
>
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education
http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
>
>
>
>
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From pgrosso at arbortext.com  Thu Jan 20 16:53:48 2000
From: pgrosso at arbortext.com (Paul Grosso)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Last Call for Canonical XML 
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000120105210.00705c08@pophost.arbortext.com>

The W3C XML Core Working Group would like to announce the publication 
of the Canonical XML Last Call Working Draft (dated 2000 January 19)
at http://www.w3.org/TR/xml-c14n .

This document describes a subset of the information contained 
in an XML document and a syntax for expressing that subset. 
This syntax, called Canonical XML, is designed to encode the 
logical structure of XML documents; two XML documents whose 
Canonical-XML form is identical will be considered equivalent 
for the purposes of many applications.

The W3C Membership and other interested parties are invited to 
review the specification, make comments, and report implementation 
experience.  Please send comments to 
mailto:www-xml-canonicalization-comments@w3.org
(which is publicly archived at 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-canonicalization-comments/ ).
The Last Call period ends the 22 February 2000.

Note: The XML Core Working Group strongly solicits commentary, 
especially from early implementors of this Working Draft, on 
the appropriateness of the requirement that Canonical XML be 
in W3C normalized text form as well. The Working Group has 
published a minority report on this question at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-canonicalization-comments/2000Ja
n/0000.html
A rationale for the majority viewpoint embodied in this draft has 
been published at
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-xml-canonicalization-comments/2000Ja
n/0001.html

Paul Grosso
XML Core WG Co-Chair


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From begeddov at jfinity.com  Thu Jan 20 17:04:27 2000
From: begeddov at jfinity.com (Gabe Beged-Dov)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD596@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <38873BF8.46C854E8@jfinity.com>

"Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" wrote:

> <quote>
> In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
> (window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
> client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
> </quote>

There are many existence proofs of doing WIMPy UI using
4.X browsers. Check out halfbrain.com, websentric.com,
desktop.com, etc... It isn't pretty (for the developer)
but you don't need IE5. The example that Dave Winer
pointed to (see http://irights.editthispage.com/) could
have been done for both NN4 and IE4 but its certainly
easier to do in IE4. 

Cordially from Corvallis,

Gabe Beged-Dov
http://www.jfinity.com/gabe

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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 17:08:09 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59D@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEDOEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Steven,
?

Statistics from: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html
 Browser Flavors                  Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. Microsoft                     7245  60.3
  2. Netscape                      4332  36.1
  3. other                          436   3.6
Microsoft Explorer Versions
 Version                     MSIE Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. v5                            4581  63.2
  2. v4                            2330  32.2
  3. v3                             213   2.9
  4. v2                             116   1.6
  5. other                            5    .1

Didier replies:
Sounds like there is an already  good number of XML aware browsers in the
field. So the XML-Developers have now an opportunity to join the XML-DEV
optimist party and provide some XML content to be delivered to their
customers :-))

Thanks to Steven and Miles for the links, if anyone has other link to
browsers numbers, I try to do some number crunching for the XML-DEV optimist
party members :-)))

Seriously, we can make the reasonable inference that this year will have an
new IE browser release and probably the first release of the Mozilla group
XML browser. This means that we'll have then the second generation Microsoft
XML browsers  and the first generation XML openSource browser to reach the
market. So, maybe the year 2001 will be the year where the monolith will
appear for XML (remember the Stanley Kubrick's movie- 2001 space odyssey?).
But don't say that to the XML-DEV conservative party members :-))) just
kidding :-))

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 17:17:02 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59E@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEEAEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Steven,
Steven Said:
I would love the idea of extensible and layered browsers so that you could
apply the necessary layers to PC's, handhelds, toasters and all the other
types mentioned previously.

I look forward to seeing it ;-)

Didier replies:
Maybe the actual working draft about behaviors (in the CSS courtyard)  can
be the first step toward this.

see: http://www.w3.org/TR/becss

So with CSS behaviors and at least a ECMAScript support of the DOM, light
may be at the end of the tunnel for the audacious and movers of this world.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Thu Jan 20 17:15:42 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Generating Drop Down HTML tags with XSL
In-Reply-To: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC03@jupiter.dretec.com>
Message-ID: <000a01bf6369$0fc13760$5cd65c8b@p300>

Yes to first question, as follows:-

You load the XML file and the XSL file into 2 MSXML objects and use a single
line of javascript to merge them and produce output.  The XML output can be
wrapped in other stuff, such as HTML and JavaScript.  The web page looks
like this:-
*******************************************
<HTML> <HEAD> <SCRIPT>
// commence function
function doIt(){
// create 2 XML objects (1 to hold XML, 1 to hold XSL)
srcDoc = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.xmldom");
stySht = new ActiveXObject("Microsoft.xmldom");
// load xml data from xml file
srcDoc.load("myFile.xml");
// load XSL data from xsl file
stySht.load("myXslFile.xsl")
// use XSL to transform XML into HTML and place output on page
document.all.item("outputHere").innerHTML=srcDoc.transformNode(stySht.docume
ntElement);
}
</SCRIPT> </HEAD>
<!-- activate function when page loads -->
< BODY onLoad=doIt()>
<!-- create ID marker for output -->
<DIV ID="outputHere"></DIV>
</BODY> </HTML>

Here's some sample XSL we use in one of our courses:-
 <xsl:stylesheet xmlns:xsl="uri:xsl">
 <xsl:template match="/">
 <HTML>
 <BODY>
  <H1>Phone and Fax List</H1>
 <TABLE BORDER="1" CELLPADDING="2">
 <TR>
  <TH>Name</TH>
  <TH>Phone</TH>
  <TH>Extension</TH>
  <TH>Fax</TH>
  <TH>Extension</TH>
  </TR>
 <xsl:for-each select="EMPLOYEELIST/RECORD" order-by="NAME/SECOND">
 <TR>
  <xsl:apply-templates />
  </TR>
  </xsl:for-each>
  </TABLE>
  </BODY>
  ...
 <xsl:for-each select="VOICE">
 <TD>
  <xsl:value-of select="@MAIN" />
  </TD>
 <xsl:choose>
 <xsl:when match=".[@EXTENSION]">
 <TD>
  <xsl:value-of select="@EXTENSION" />
  </TD>
  </xsl:when>
 <xsl:otherwise>
  <TD>NONE</TD>
  </xsl:otherwise>
  </xsl:choose>
  </xsl:for-each>

Now, while we're wrapping the XML with table HTML, it could just as easily
be wrapped with <SELECT> and <OPTION> tags...

In fact, wrapping XML with other stuff is (to me) exactly what XSL is for.

DOM access is not so simple.  As I understand it, it's the XQL components
which add DOM methods.  I'm sure somebody can elucidate this one, but my
understanding is that XQL is merging back into XSL to add DOM capbailities,
so we don't all have to walk the tree to access a given element.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Kieran O'Shea
>Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 12:56 PM
>To: 'xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk'
>Subject: Generating Drop Down HTML tags with XSL
>
>
>Hi,
>
>	Is there anyway of creating  a dropdown html menu using
>XSL (Option,
>Value). The Menu information will be stored
>in the XML document calling this XSL stylesheet ?
>
>	Can Javascript in XSL access the html code it contains ?
>
>
>	Can JavaScript in XSL access the DOM object for the XML document
>that calls it ?
>
>
>
>
>					Kieran O'Shea
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 17:21:40 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <053e01bf6366$d0262cc0$1918ccce@murphy>
References: <4.1.20000120111827.04dcab80@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120122320.04dca270@216.65.70.29>

At 08:53 AM 1/20/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:

>It's feature-driven by users. They keep asking the web to do things that
>apps do, as Steven has been saying.

that "they" keep asking hasn't been documented here at all.

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From vilya at nag.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 17:31:24 2000
From: vilya at nag.co.uk (Vilya Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEDOEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <388746BB.E30700E2@nag.co.uk>

Didier PH Martin wrote:
>
> Statistics from: http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html
>  Browser Flavors                  Hosts     %
>  --------------------------------------------
>   1. Microsoft                     7245  60.3
>   2. Netscape                      4332  36.1
>   3. other                          436   3.6
> Microsoft Explorer Versions
>  Version                     MSIE Hosts     %
>  --------------------------------------------
>   1. v5                            4581  63.2
>   2. v4                            2330  32.2
>   3. v3                             213   2.9
>   4. v2                             116   1.6
>   5. other                            5    .1
> 
> Didier replies:
> Sounds like there is an already  good number of XML aware browsers in
> the field.

Just a quick cautionary note: read the disclaimers at the above URL and
take the figures with a grain of salt. There are a number of factors which
could contribute to their being skewed...

Vil.
-- 
Vilya Harvey  <vilya@nag.co.uk>    Wilkinson House  Mob: +44  961 106 505
Computational Mathematics Group   Jordan Hill Road   Wk: +44 1865 511 245
NAG Limited                    Oxford  UK  OX2 8DR  Fax: +44 1865 311 205

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 20 17:32:40 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:27 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEEAEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59E@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <200001201732.MAA15805@hesketh.net>

At 04:37 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
>I would love the idea of extensible and layered browsers so that you could
>apply the necessary layers to PC's, handhelds, toasters and all the other
>types mentioned previously.
>
>I look forward to seeing it ;-)

This is promising, since I've generally disagreed with Steven's approach
throughout the rest of this discussion.

At 12:18 AM 1/20/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Didier replies:
>Maybe the actual working draft about behaviors (in the CSS courtyard)  can
>be the first step toward this.
>
>see: http://www.w3.org/TR/becss
>
>So with CSS behaviors and at least a ECMAScript support of the DOM, light
>may be at the end of the tunnel for the audacious and movers of this world.

Ingredients!  While it seems like the W3C is focused on building parts for
ever more complex monolithic browsers, maybe they can be reused and made
into smaller, more modular pieces.  (As a for-instance, the HTML 'elements'
proposed in becss seem hideous, but the CSS parts are interesting.)

If a browser just becomes a set of common modules, with some way to
distinguish which modules are available, we might be getting someplace.
This'd take going way beyond the XHTML modularisation we have now though,
or the relatively simple content-type negotiations between servers and
browsers that are part of HTTP.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From scarhill at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 17:44:09 2000
From: scarhill at yahoo.com (Jim Ancona)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <20000120173948.594.qmail@web704.mail.yahoo.com>

>From the top of that page:

"These tables summarize browsers used by 12013 hosts in 76
countries making 103140 accesses on 19/Jan/2000 to the
Engineering Workstations WWW server at the University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. The lion's share of accesses to
this server are for engineering student home pages. Information
about browser types is extracted from the User-Agent HTTP
Request header provided by nearly all browsers. "

I can't think of a much more techno-geek user population than
viewers of "engineering student home pages". I doubt that they
have much in common with the users of, say, eBay or Yahoo.

Jim
--- "Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM"
<steven.livingstone@scotent.co.uk> wrote:
> This is useful ...
> Browser Flavors
>  Browser Flavors                  Hosts     %
>  --------------------------------------------
>   1. Microsoft                     7245  60.3
>   2. Netscape                      4332  36.1
>   3. other                          436   3.6
> Microsoft Explorer Versions
>  Version                     MSIE Hosts     %
>  --------------------------------------------
>   1. v5                            4581  63.2
>   2. v4                            2330  32.2
>   3. v3                             213   2.9
>   4. v2                             116   1.6
>   5. other                            5    .1
>  
> 
> Source : http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html
> 
> steven
> 
> Steven Livingstone
> Glasgow, Scotland.
> 07771 957 280 or +447771957280
> 
> Pro XML
>
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
> Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
>
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
> Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
>
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:	Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com]
> > Sent:	20 January 2000 04:15
> > To:	'XML Dev'; Elliotte Rusty Harold
> > Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> > 
> > Hi
> > 
> > Elliotte said:
> > These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less
> than 50% ....
> > 
> > Didier replies:
> > To get an objective picture, do people can suggest sites
> having statistics
> > about browsers, I promise to make an average of all these
> numbers and
> > publish them back to the group. This way, we'll have a more
> objective base
> > for our thinking and we will resemble less to a parliament
> or a senate
> > :-))
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/
> or CD-ROM/ISBN
> > 981-02-3594-1
> > Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> > unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
> > unsubscribe xml-dev
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> > 
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> > to OASIS.
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> 

=====
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scarhill@yahoo.com                    jim.ancona@geac.com
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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 17:45:16 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67524C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Vilya Harvey,
> Just a quick cautionary note: read the disclaimers at the 
> above URL and take the figures with a grain of salt. There are 
> a number of factors which could contribute to their being 
> skewed...

Like, for example, the fact that they're the stats for a
_single_ site. StatMarket, now unfortunately a paid for service,
has much broader coverage. See,

http://statmarket.com/html/sample_browsers.html

which shows that although Microsoft is well in the lead, IE5
only has an 8.3% share.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 17:54:17 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67524D@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

I wrote,
> which shows that although Microsoft is well in the lead, IE5
> only has an 8.3% share.

I _really_ should have checked the date on the top of that
report ;-) It's thoroughly stale.

It's a shame ... StatMarket used to be a marvellous free
resource, but it's just a bit too pricey now.

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/





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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Thu Jan 20 18:00:37 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
Message-ID: <C125686C.00624992.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>



My vision is the following: a multi-everything browser will mainly be an empty shell
able to call the appropriate processors whenever it sees certain XML namespaces and/or Processing Instructions.
It will enable multi-domain documents.
It will manage drag'n drop and clipboard with an XML data model.
It might include an editor with the same multi-domain capabilities.
Its responsability will of course also be to manage the display space between processors (tiling, resize, ...).
One important responsability can also be to manage the mapping between the data XML and the displayed XML (HTML or plain XML with CSS).
Generic display skills are also desirable:
- collapsable tree/graph views for the document tree, the inheritance graph, the ID/IDREF graph
- extended search/query

So I expect a general and modular tool for manipulating data, of the 3 main kinds: document-oriented (HTML & word processor), structure-oriented (database type) and knowledge-oriented (semantic
network, RDF, etc)

The next killer-app ...
A role for Mozilla ?




From: "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com> on 20/01/2000 05:08 PM

Please respond to "Simon St.Laurent" <simonstl@simonstl.com>

To:   "'XML Dev'" <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
cc:    (bcc: Jean Marc VANEL/EFFIX/fr)

Subject:  Extensible browsers


The browser wars discussions have finally reached these shores - XML-Dev -
in a virulent form.  Does this mean that XML is finally approaching
viability as a Web development technology?

This particular explosion hasn't appeared here before, perhaps because most
of us here who do Web development are tired of hearing about it on other
lists.

Personally, I think we need extensible browsers, not these big complex
sealed browsers we keep getting.  I'm hoping XHTML will help us toward that
path and make this whole discussion obsolete.

Any takers?
Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 20 18:00:00 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000120095837.01508100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 01:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
>1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users look
>at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any content
>handler, that specific one.

Dave, please tell us you didn't really mean this.  I'm not talking about
the IE5 issue; if you want to exclude a third of the market (at least; there 
are still a lot of Macs and Unix boxes out there) from seeing your stuff, 
that's a business decision that you're free to take on its own merits.

What's silly is the notion that any Web Developer should operate on the
basis that WYSIWYG is still alive in a world full of different screen formats,
resolutions, font repertoires, and color capabilities.

I used to be a regular speaker at the Seybold conferences.  The Seybold
crowd (heavy design geeks) initially kind of hoped the Web would go away,
because they couldn't have the fine control over pixels and so on that
they were used to.  I remember like yesterday going to one in '96 (maybe 
'95) when there was a keynote-with-demo of the first release of Adobe's
PageMill... the demo featured drag&droping pictures into place on web
pages, and having them come up just right in the browser.  WYSIWYG for
the Web!  The crowd exploded in a roaring ovation.  I thought "These
people Just Don't Get It".

4 years later, that crowd generally does get it.  And is living with
the fact that you can have design excellence without WYSIWYG.  And
PageMill is still a piece of crap. -Tim

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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 20 18:01:01 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Robert Burns works available as XML
References: <807E1C18A44ED311B72500902746407F0756C9@epicenter.vsi.com>
Message-ID: <000a01bf6372$77ccdf40$28acdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

Just in time for Robert Burns day!

I have marked up all of The works of Robert Burns as XML. They are available
at

http://www.hypermedic.com/opcenter/gutenberg/docindex.html

Please note that this is part of the HTML Writers guild project to mark up
all of ProjectGutenberg e-texts.

If any of you are interested in helping out in this effort please get in
touch with me

If any one finds any erors in the markup, or in the text, please let me
know.

Frank Boumphrey


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From scarhill at yahoo.com  Thu Jan 20 18:07:10 2000
From: scarhill at yahoo.com (Jim Ancona)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <20000120175549.18681.qmail@web703.mail.yahoo.com>

Of course that data is from April 1999. Presumably, IE5's share
has increased since then? 

I would guess you have to pay to get the up-to-date statistics.

Jim

--- Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:
> Like, for example, the fact that they're the stats for a
> _single_ site. StatMarket, now unfortunately a paid for
> service,
> has much broader coverage. See,
> 
> http://statmarket.com/html/sample_browsers.html
> 
> which shows that although Microsoft is well in the lead, IE5
> only has an 8.3% share.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> Miles
> 
> -- 
> Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
> Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
> +44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
> msabin@cromwellmedia.com         
> http://www.cromwellmedia.com/
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
> CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
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> 
> 

=====
Jim Ancona                           jim@anconafamily.com
scarhill@yahoo.com                    jim.ancona@geac.com
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Thu Jan 20 18:15:25 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD560@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <000d01bf6371$70dc4000$5cd65c8b@p300>

I hate to be a bore about all this, but I think we should all remember that
most of the human race do NOT have access to high-tech PC's.  There is a
massive movement of 386 & 486 machines from the US and Europe into places
like Africa.  Timbuktu, for example, has precisely 2 PC's, both 486's.  The
doctors there use them to access medical information over the web which they
couldn't afford to buy via medical journals.  They claim this has saved
hundreds of lives in the last year alone.  Now maybe I'm an idealist, but I
happen to think getting IT into the third world is a little more important
than allowing some company to make an extra 2% profit.

My message to developers is thus:- don't raise the tech barrier, lower it.
Don't wish for better technology, work out how to do more with less.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
>Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 10:59 AM
>To: Tim Bray; Don Park; 'XML Dev'
>Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>>Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the
>Internet needs for
>>there to be more than one browser.  -T.
>
>Aye, but try developing applications for users in Scotland (and we have
>several US offices).
>When the business suddenly says "everyone must be able to use it", you
>suddenly have to score out a whole load of technologies and
>the development
>either takes a lot longer (justify that to the guy paying) or
>just doesn't
>work that well for users.
>
>Don't get me wrong, I would not like any one company to dominate, as
>competitiveness = innovation, but surely they could all argue their
>"standards" to produce one really good browser. After all, the
>W3C are able
>to do it.
>
>cheers
>steven
>
>Steven Livingstone
>Glasgow, Scotland
>07771 957 280 or +447771957280
>
>Pro XML
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
>Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
>Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Tim Bray [SMTP:tbray@textuality.com]
>> Sent:	20 January 2000 04:47
>> To:	Don Park; 'XML Dev'
>> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>>
>> At 08:15 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Don Park wrote:
>> >I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
>> >one browser to support.
>>
>> Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the
>Internet needs
>> for
>> there to be more than one browser.  -T.
>>
>> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 18:20:24 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67524C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEEEEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Miles,

Miles said:
Like, for example, the fact that they're the stats for a
_single_ site. StatMarket, now unfortunately a paid for service,
has much broader coverage. See,

http://statmarket.com/html/sample_browsers.html

which shows that although Microsoft is well in the lead, IE5
only has an 8.3% share.

Didier replies:
You are right let's cool down. We need more rigueur here with the numbers.
And even the Statmarket sample do not reflect the real situation since the
sample stats are for August 1999. Since then, I am sure the numbers changed.
But even at that time, the end of the page has an important sentence:

StatMarket reports that Microsoft now accounts for approximately 75% of all
browsers used on the Internet.

So, now the question is: today, what is the Microsoft market share
percentage and in that percentage what is the market share of IE 5. This way
we would know what is the proportion of XML browsers in the field. This,
until Mozilla hit the market where we'll have to take into account the
number of Mozilla browsers in addition to IE v5 and up.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com




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From bckman at ix.netcom.com  Thu Jan 20 18:50:24 2000
From: bckman at ix.netcom.com (Frank Boumphrey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Robert Burns works available as XML(2)
Message-ID: <009f01bf6379$5f8f9060$28acdccf@prioritynetworks.net>

The Robert Burns files are now also available at

http://www.hwg.org/opcenter/gutenberg/docindex.html

Frank Boumphrey


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From elharo at metalab.unc.edu  Thu Jan 20 19:09:07 2000
From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <v04210108b4ad08740195@[192.168.1.254]>

At 4:05 PM +0000 1/20/00, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
>
>
>I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
>because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
>
>I am just out of a 2 hour meeting where we tried to follow in our previous
>project *exactly* what you have been suggesting. They want these menu's to
>ease navigation, they want different page looks depending on who they are,
>they want help when they press F1 etc etc etc... This is more than 2000
>people saying this.
>
>In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
>(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
>client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
>

Is that really what they want? Somehow I doubt it. I have this funny 
feeling that what they want to do is browse a database, or have 
customers place orders, or play games, or something else that's an 
end in itself. I find it hard to believe that the front-end is really 
the mission critical part of an app. It sounds like the client has 
strong ideas of what front end they want, but I doubt that's the app.

If this is an Intranet, you might be able to pull off what you 
suggest. If it's the public Web, then it's hopeless. Tell your client 
that they will piss off and lose customers if they do this UNLESS 
they provide a seamless alternative to the underlying functionality.

FileMaker Pro does a pretty good job of something like this. If you 
connect to a FileMaker database using IE5, you'll get a very fancy 
site that uses DHTML heavily to reproduce the exact look and feel of 
the underlying database. If you connect with Netscape, you'll get a 
less snazzy but still completely functional table and form based 
page. There's no extra work for the user or the publisher here. Of 
course I suspect the people who programmed FileMaker had to work very 
hard to make it this easy.


+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
|              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

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From elharo at metalab.unc.edu  Thu Jan 20 19:07:53 2000
From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <v04210106b4ad061d74f4@[192.168.1.254]>

At 11:20 PM -0500 1/19/00, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Hi Eliotte,
>
>[long post and answer to Dave...]
>
>Didier replies:
>Eliotte you made me think of something: the cost of publication and the type
>of thing that can be on the web.
>
>a) to test on all browsers increases publication cost or you have to find
>the least common denominator to publish and not to use new features. Just
>the minimum possible. This is a good strategy for maximum diffusion. This
>also create a tremendous resistance to change and thus, like I said
>previously, we are in big trouble with XML since the question now is: how
>long will it take before we have enough XML browsers so that we are not
>accused of being "not accessible".

You don't absolutely have to test on all browsers, but I certainly 
recommend that any site that goes beyond a personal home page test on 
a reasonable subset including IE and Netscape on both Windows and the 
Mac. Bigger budgets can do more.

As far as XML not being accessible, I completely disagree. XML+XSLT 
works wonderfully in all browsers provided the transformation to HTML 
is done on the server side.

>b)Now what about the plethora of innovation that we are appearing now,
>things like, desktop.com, halfbrain, etc that actually mostly work on IE
>because Netscape still lag seriously when we speak of DHTM.

I haven't looked at any of these. My personal opinion is that I don't 
have enough readers that I can afford to exclude and piss off 5% of 
them, much less 50%. That's why my sites are designed to work well on 
as many browsers as possible on as many platforms as possible. I'm 
not saying I always succeed, but if someone points out a problem to 
me I hunt it down and fix it if I can find it. Maybe these sites 
don't mind excluding 50% of their potential user base. Maybe they're 
really doing something useful that can't be done more simply in older 
browsers. Most likely, their developers are just trying to make their 
work easy at the expense of making their potential customers lives 
harder. Old Mac programmers's slogan: Making software easy to use is 
hard.


+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
|              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

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From donpark at docuverse.com  Thu Jan 20 19:07:17 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD560@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <000701bf6379$9a9657c0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

>Maybe I'm old-fashioned; I believe passionately that the 
>Internet needs for there to be more than one browser.  -T.

I agreed with your belief a few years ago, I do not
agree now, and I will agree again a few years later.

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From tyler at infinet.com  Thu Jan 20 19:09:25 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
	 <066d01bf62e0$961e7cc0$0a0a0a0a@deltabiz>
	 <4.1.20000119214705.0091eab0@mail.webgeek.com>
	 <046d01bf62f4$cc9dd020$1918ccce@murphy> <4.1.20000120094240.044e2460@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <38875CD4.1E11117E@infinet.com>

Ann Navarro wrote:

> At 10:56 PM 1/19/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> >The idea of new types of user interfaces being "too" complicated is often a
> >case of people
> >not having enough faith in people to learn new things.
>
> No one's arguing that such menus are "too complicated". But when over half
> the installed software base doesn't support them, that's generally a poor
> design decision.

Just because a survey says that a certain percentage of people still use Netscape
2.x browsers or MS IE 2.x browsers does not mean these people are target users of
e-commerce. Many of these people rarely if ever go online and do so only for
email. Your installed software base is not the same as your installed customer
base.

> >P.S. - For the E-Commerce folks, if your users cannot afford to upgrade
> >their 486 to a
> >modern 500 dollar computer so they can run the latest version of Navigator
> >or IE, the
> >chances are they are not gonna spend a lot of money online anyways because
> >the don't even
> >have enough money to upgrade their ancient computer.
>
> Faulty assumption. Not all users who run something other than IE5 are
> "poor" people who run "ancient" 486 machines.
>
> They're often corporate users with strict IT policies about what software
> is run -- and it's not the software of YOUR choosing. They're educational
> users and other institutional situations.

These corporate users usually have the most recent web browsers on their machines
if indeed the machines have internet applications to begin with because of the
need to upgrade to fix security loopholes in the previous version.

> They are people like me, who spend tens of thousands of dollars online a
> year, between myself and the two businesses I purchase for, who simply
> prefer a different browser, and won't launch another one just so your nifty
> little menus will work. If you make it hard for me, you simply won't get
> the sale.

Well there are people in this world that are totally set in their ways, but not
everyone is like that. In fact, I would say the majority of people out there
upgrade their web browsers at least once every 6 months. If you prefer to run
ancient applications that cannot even run Java applets, then that is your choice,
but not the choice of the vast majority out there.

> I forget who ran the commercial, but it was about a business interviewing
> to outsource their web presence. Two very young, geeky guys were giving a
> presentation, laughing about how the technology would be obsolete as soon
> as they left the room, but that was ok, because they could come back on a
> new contract. That they'd use <this spiff thing> on the web site, because,
> hey, that's cool. Ah, now I remember, it was FedEx, because the tagline was
> "but you always ship FedEx".

Yah and remember the commercial (I think it was for UUNET) where a bunch of board
room guys ignore the internet and grow old until they croak. The idea is simply
that you "innovate or die".

> Developers who insist that the newest innovation is somehow critical to the
> product or application are alot like those guys -- you don't develop
> applications for clients and for the general public based primarily on what
> entertains YOU or relies on cutting edge software that is used mostly by
> other developers (same in web design, most users don't have 1024x768 or
> higher resolutions on 19 inch monitors -- so an argument of "it looks best
> for ME like this" holds no water).
>
> Play and innovate on demo-ware, or in arenas where you truly CAN control
> the environment, but doing so elsewhere is self-indulgent at the expense of
> the client/audience.

Most software developers I know add in new features simply to make their products
better an easy to use. This is not "play" but trying new things to make life
easier on the end-user. There is a difference to forcing untested features on
end-users and giving them tested, proven features that accomplish something. If
end-users are never exposed to anything new, then why on earth would anything in
the software world change. This Amish mentality about software might be good for
the needs of the stubborn, but it certainly is not good enough for the vast
majority of end-users who welcome new technology so long as the technology servers
a purpose.

Tyler


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:13:17 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <38875A1C.63D0@hiwaay.net>

Didier PH Martin wrote:
> 
> Yes Eliotte you made me think that the web will evolve at a much slower pace
> now. Up to now, this was not the case with the old desktop paradigm.

Yes, the cost is the consideration and in some cases, over a very long
lifecycle. 
This is what many do not cope with yet because as it is said, they are
developing 
ecom (web page as Sears catalog) sites.  That kind of site is fairly
easy to 
define in terms of transactions and GUI events.  Forms, and in this
case, 
forms which have yet to meet the feature and reliability numbers of 
the client/server apps developed over standard frameworks. 
Statelessness comes 
with a price.

Evolution has not slowed.  It has divided into many domains.

Up to this point, people see the evolution of the web in terms of the 
web browser evolution although the serious changes are in the pipes 
(eg, broadband), in the emergence of dedicated applications 
(eg, RealMedia, WinAmp) and the first timid steps into more resource 
intensive content types such as are needed for entertainment.  So,
instead 
of watching the evolution of a hearty band in a single colony, we 
are watching the co-evolution of communities of applications 
(information ecologies) with boundaries, fits and starts, reversals, 
and so forth.  The web becomes many things and the browser, lots 
of little TVs.  Is that to continue?  Perhaps, but for now, the issue 
of substance in this thread remains how to guarantee reliable
operations.

Some see the AOL/TW merger as powerful based on the extant 
libraries.   But those libraries are 20thCentury content.  While 
they are valuable, just as Turner had to colorize his acquisitions 
to get new audience (not that I think that is artistically a good 
thing), the TW libraries may not be what is best.  When movies 
emerged, plays were adapted until the modern screenscript emerged.  
When TV emerged, movies and plays were adapted until the 22 minute 
episode emerged.  With the web, we can already see very different 
and not backwardly compatible entertainments emerging and these 
have reliability requirements that far exceed those of the 
web browser cum HTML.

Because there is a need, the innovation and domination will follow.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:13:10 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
Message-ID: <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net>

Don Park wrote:
> 
> I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
> one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
> 'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
> into public domain.  A non-profit open source organization
> could be setup to coordinate merging of Mozilla and IE into a
> universal browser and beyond.

In the short run, yes, but not in the long run.  I do not care to 
see a public service browser because, and call me old fashioned, 
it is too much like a state run car factory.   Competition is 
still the best incentive to innovation.  The key is to define services 
that enable both innovation and reliability.  As engineers, the  
job is to figure out just how to do that.

> Effects of such an event to W3C is somewhat difficult to guage
> though.

Originally, they were to spec and develop enabling technologies. 
Maybe they should turn some attention back to the issues of 
a reliable framework with behavioral fidelity, or work out 
the means by which a web appliance becomes certified.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:13:41 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <388752ED.7469@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> >But the barriers aren't artificial.
> 
> Sure they are. The minute you say "you must use <arbitrary browser/software
> here>" for an application being served over a medium that was designed to
> be machine/platform/software independent, you've created an artificial
> barrier.

The minute my customer requires a feature that only one browser supports 
or supports reliably, they have contracted for a transaction.  That is 
not a barrier.  (NOTE:  I am not necessarily saying "one browser" is the 
answer;  a reliable browser is and that is tested in the medium.)

Precisely which medium are you talking about being
"machine/platform/software" 
independent?  Is the content independent?   Is is reliable?  What are
the 
costs?  Is universal access the requirement or is reliable access to a 
defined audience the requirement?  How do you specify that audience and 
ensure that reliability?

Contracts, Ann.  Do some proposal work for mission critical systems 
and see what the engineers tell you when you submit product change 
requests to them which request "universal access".   Have you been 
sued for failing to meet the terms of such a contract?

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:13:14 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
References: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29> <200001201608.LAA09649@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <388756F7.3462@hiwaay.net>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> 
> Any takers?

Note Simon, that what appears to be a browser war discussion 
is underneath a discussion of issues that are serious to the 
content developers, (skipping the openSourceIsHoly, anyoneButMS
topics):

1.  Features
2.  Reliability
3.  Universal vs targeted access 

The point is that the technology deployed must satisfy 
the contractual requirements within the costs.  Right now, 
and maybe only for awhile, the surest way to do that is to 
restrict the codebase to provably reliable code.  If I 
want RealMedia rm, I use RealPlayer7.  If I want MP3, I 
have a choice given the vendors paid for the patent license. 

HTML is drop dead easy and so far, we still have a lot 
of reliability problems.  The emerging web applications 
for entertainment content have much more severe problems 
and we cannot rely on the HTML monolith to support them. 
So while I think you are in the right area talking about 
extensible browsers, it may be better to reconsider what 
the design of the webbrowser is in general terms as 
services, then to consider if you need the web browser 
cum HTML display engine as the container or just another 
content service type.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:13:14 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Extensible browsers
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD59E@SENMAIL3> <200001201732.MAA15805@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <38875D31.16A6@hiwaay.net>

Simon St.Laurent wrote:
> 
> If a browser just becomes a set of common modules, with some way to
> distinguish which modules are available, we might be getting someplace.
> This'd take going way beyond the XHTML modularisation we have now though,
> or the relatively simple content-type negotiations between servers and
> browsers that are part of HTTP.

Que bueno.

That's part of it.  Ok.  Now show me how to prove that for even one 
of the content handlers, I can guarantee reliable performance.  
What happens if the system dynamically finds components based 
on the content rating for required reliability?   Consider content 
that can make that request.  For example, RealMedia wakes up and 
tells you that an upgrade is needed, then does it automatically 
and in my experience, very completely.  This is a sea change from the 
last version, so I think they are listening to the users.

Some of the marketing wonks who follow these threads should consider 
asking their logistics engineers if they have them, how does a markup 
system contribute to the outermost performance numbers for MTBF?  
When doing this, one needs to do the Failure Mode Effects Analysis 
first.  Remember, it is a system with lots of layers, each has its 
own failure modes, and overall these can provide a rating for 
the complete system.  By the way, being able to continue operations in 
a "degraded mode" as Winer said, is precisely what is needed.

Can anyone tell us what Windows is doing when it boots up 
in SafeMode?  What is Safe and what is disabled and how 
are the choices made?

Some of us are old enough to remember CALS and the arguments for 
why SGML was chosen.  The rest of you, do a little digging.  This 
isn't about the browser wars. 

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 20 19:17:11 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Robert Burns works available as XML(2)
References: <009f01bf6379$5f8f9060$28acdccf@prioritynetworks.net>
Message-ID: <38875E46.4D30@hiwaay.net>

Frank Boumphrey wrote:
> 
> The Robert Burns files are now also available at
> 
> http://www.hwg.org/opcenter/gutenberg/docindex.html

Thanks Frank!  Good of you to do this.

len


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Thu Jan 20 19:18:36 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: LISTADMIN - SIZE and CONTENT  [was RE: Generating Drop Down
  HTML tags with XSL]
In-Reply-To: <000a01bf6369$0fc13760$5cd65c8b@p300>
References: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC03@jupiter.dretec.com>
Message-ID: <E12BN6D-000Mcq-0C@finch-post-12.mail.demon.net>

At 03:11 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Brandt Dainow wrote: 

[something that appeared to contain an active script].

Please try to avoid posting that contains scripts - 
It may not have been you fault, but this message caused my browser to go
haywire.

Other LISTRIVIA before I depart :-)

- PLEASE try to avoid quoting the whole of the previous message(s). It
fills up the list badly. [Also Henry and I are thinking of converting this
list to XML :-)]

- PLEASE do no attach attachments. Henry has now archived the whole list
(21000 messages) and some of the historical attachments crash the copying
process onto a Windows filestore.

	P.



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From ann at webgeek.com  Thu Jan 20 19:22:01 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <388752ED.7469@hiwaay.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000120142223.03963280@216.65.70.29>

At 12:24 PM 1/20/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:

>The minute my customer requires a feature that only one browser supports 
>or supports reliably, they have contracted for a transaction.  

If you produce work that only does exactly what a customer *thinks* they
want, then that's how you'd accomplish this, yes. A good consultant,
however, educates the client during the project phase that looks at needs.
Indeed, if customers knew exactly what was best for them and how it worked,
they would have little need to turn to consultants. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From donpark at docuverse.com  Thu Jan 20 19:26:22 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000120095411.044e15a0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <000801bf637c$3eaa35a0$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

>If there were only 2 browsers in the world, that rather 
>unlikely scenario might work.
>But at last count there were hundreds.

You are counting ants while I am counting elephants. Are
you saying marketshare doesn't mean anything?  If you think
ants and elephants are in the same category, why would you
mind if two elephants mate?  Its just two out of hundreds.

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Thu Jan 20 19:36:03 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Robert Burns works available as XML(2)
Message-ID: <20000120193521.51868.qmail@hotmail.com>

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From: Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net>
Reply-To: Len Bullard <cbullard@hiwaay.net>
To: Frank Boumphrey <bckman@ix.netcom.com>
CC: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Robert Burns works available as XML(2)
Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 13:13:10 -0600

Frank Boumphrey wrote:
 >
 > The Robert Burns files are now also available at
 >
 > http://www.hwg.org/opcenter/gutenberg/docindex.html

Thanks Frank!  Good of you to do this.

len


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From steve at rsv.ricoh.com  Thu Jan 20 20:03:38 2000
From: steve at rsv.ricoh.com (Stephen R. Savitzky)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: "Didier PH Martin"'s message of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 20:03:48 -0500
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEDBEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <qcu2k8pl62.fsf@congo.crc.ricoh.com>

"Didier PH Martin" <martind@netfolder.com> writes:

> a) Netscape is no more pursuing the innovation war that they where doing and
> if you look closely to the Netscape Browser and IE, it is clear that one is
> evolving and the other is stagnant. On the side of Mozilla, the development
> time is bigger than expected but the feature set interesting. It remains now
> to see, if this could be brought to the market (I hope with all my hart that
> it will).

I prefer to say -- Netscape is reasonably stable, and IE is a moving target. 

In any case, Netscape + IE + Opera now make up a sizeable but rapidly-
decreasing fraction of the browser market -- or haven't you noticed the
number of connected WebTV's, Palm Pilots, cell phones, and recently kitchen
appliances?

And the couple of hundred million Linux users who are going to be coming
online in places like China and India over the next few years aren't going
to be using Microsoft products, either.

> b) W3C by having different style languages like XSLT/XSL, CSS just increased
> the cost of development and thus created a huge barrier of entry for any new
> competitor. This, W3C created a barrier of entry for newcomers and only
> corporation with a lot of resources can make it.

The mapping from XML to HTML (using XSLT and so on) is properly applied on
the server.

-- 
Stephen R. Savitzky  <steve@rsv.ricoh.com>  <http://rsv.ricoh.com/~steve/>
Platform for Information Applications:      <http://RiSource.org/PIA/>
Chief Software Scientist, Ricoh Silicon Valley, Inc. Calif. Research Center
 voice: 650.496.5710  front desk: 650.496.5700  fax: 650.854.8740 
  home: <steve@theStarport.org> URL: http://theStarport.org/people/steve/

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From benedikt at furukama.de  Thu Jan 20 20:02:06 2000
From: benedikt at furukama.de (Benedikt Koehler)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <000d01bf6371$70dc4000$5cd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <004201bf6381$525e3560$6d1abb81@lmu21695studlmu>

Well I guess, you don't have to go as far as the 3rd world. I'm designing
webpages for a quite large university in Germany, and lots of the pcs used
there are 486 or even 386 machines. Maybe the range of the "electronical 3rd
world" doesn't match the range of the "economical-or-call-it-as-you-like 3rd
world".
Anyway, I think this thread is very interesting and touches some central
points of XML, one of which may be the strict seperation of content and
display. And display is not only about aesthetic preferences, but also about
"localization" (show the information in a country-specific way),
"individualization" (show the information in a user-specific way),
"hardware-ization" (show the information in a hardware-appropriate way
without losing content) and perhaps many other "-izations".
This again leads back to the "one-browser-only"-debate as I think the above
mentioned is nearly impossible with one browser alone. You could do it all
on the server-side but then again you could only serve a few of the million
possible "-ization"-wishes.

Benedikt Koehler
www.furukama.de

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
> Brandt Dainow
> Sent: Donnerstag, 20. Januar 2000 16:20
> To: 'XML Dev'
> Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
> I hate to be a bore about all this, but I think we should all
> remember that
> most of the human race do NOT have access to high-tech PC's.  There is a
> massive movement of 386 & 486 machines from the US and Europe into places
> like Africa.  Timbuktu, for example, has precisely 2 PC's, both
> 486's.  The
> doctors there use them to access medical information over the web
> which they
> couldn't afford to buy via medical journals.  They claim this has saved
> hundreds of lives in the last year alone.  Now maybe I'm an
> idealist, but I
> happen to think getting IT into the third world is a little more important
> than allowing some company to make an extra 2% profit.
>
> My message to developers is thus:- don't raise the tech barrier, lower it.
> Don't wish for better technology, work out how to do more with less.
>
> Brandt Dainow
> bd@internet-etc.com
> Internet Etc Ltd
> http://www.internet-etc.com


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From dave at userland.com  Thu Jan 20 20:11:19 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000120095837.01508100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <05ad01bf6382$835c0f10$1918ccce@murphy>

Tim it may be too complicated to explain in email, but we do web content
systems, and therefore our customers are web content developers, and I'm not
speaking for UserLand as much as I'm telling you what I see with our
customers. Yes, we must look at things as they appear in browsers, and after
several years of stagnation in browsers, and the falloff of Netscape, the
developers are giving up and going with Microsoft. That's what I see. Ann
Navaro may think it's not been proven, and Harold may be incensensed and
offended, and they may both be right, but that's what I see. Dave


----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Bray" <tbray@textuality.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 9:58 AM
Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C


> At 01:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
> >1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users
look
> >at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any
content
> >handler, that specific one.
>
> Dave, please tell us you didn't really mean this.  I'm not talking about
> the IE5 issue; if you want to exclude a third of the market (at least;
there
> are still a lot of Macs and Unix boxes out there) from seeing your stuff,
> that's a business decision that you're free to take on its own merits.
>
> What's silly is the notion that any Web Developer should operate on the
> basis that WYSIWYG is still alive in a world full of different screen
formats,
> resolutions, font repertoires, and color capabilities.
>
> I used to be a regular speaker at the Seybold conferences.  The Seybold
> crowd (heavy design geeks) initially kind of hoped the Web would go away,
> because they couldn't have the fine control over pixels and so on that
> they were used to.  I remember like yesterday going to one in '96 (maybe
> '95) when there was a keynote-with-demo of the first release of Adobe's
> PageMill... the demo featured drag&droping pictures into place on web
> pages, and having them come up just right in the browser.  WYSIWYG for
> the Web!  The crowd exploded in a roaring ovation.  I thought "These
> people Just Don't Get It".
>
> 4 years later, that crowd generally does get it.  And is living with
> the fact that you can have design excellence without WYSIWYG.  And
> PageMill is still a piece of crap. -Tim
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 20 20:29:50 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:28 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> At 10:06 PM 1/19/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >Ann Navarro wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> There's nothing in IE 5 functionality that is so compelling to *content*
> >> that it should be "required" to use.
> >
> >> Your conclusions are highly debatable.
> >
> >But the barriers aren't artificial.
> 
> Sure they are. The minute you say "you must use <arbitrary browser/software
> here>" for an application being served over a medium that was designed to
> be machine/platform/software independent, you've created an artificial
> barrier.

*Applause*

The web is about open and, dare I say it, _commodity_ standards.

That's how it grew so quickly.  De-commoditizing would be a great
short-term fix for some companies' market power, but bad long-term
from the user perspectve due to a decreased ability for innovation
to occur.

- Dave

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From kendal at interlog.com  Thu Jan 20 20:32:52 2000
From: kendal at interlog.com (Rolande Kendal)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000120153437.03767970@pop.psi.ca>

At 12:01 PM 01/20/2000 -0800, you wrote:
>"Didier PH Martin" <martind@netfolder.com> writes:
>
>> a) Netscape is no more pursuing the innovation war that they where doing
and
>> if you look closely to the Netscape Browser and IE, it is clear that one is
>> evolving and the other is stagnant. On the side of Mozilla, the development
>> time is bigger than expected but the feature set interesting. It remains
now
>> to see, if this could be brought to the market (I hope with all my hart
that
>> it will).
>
>I prefer to say -- Netscape is reasonably stable, and IE is a moving target.

More accurately stated: Netscape is stagnating while IE is evolving.

>
>In any case, Netscape + IE + Opera now make up a sizeable but rapidly-
>decreasing fraction of the browser market -- or haven't you noticed the
>number of connected WebTV's, Palm Pilots, cell phones, and recently kitchen
>appliances?
>

No, I haven't!

>And the couple of hundred million Linux users who are going to be coming
>online in places like China and India over the next few years aren't going
>to be using Microsoft products, either.
>

They certainly are going to be using Microsoft -- albiet bootleg copies.

>> b) W3C by having different style languages like XSLT/XSL, CSS just
increased
>> the cost of development and thus created a huge barrier of entry for any
new
>> competitor. This, W3C created a barrier of entry for newcomers and only
>> corporation with a lot of resources can make it.
>
>The mapping from XML to HTML (using XSLT and so on) is properly applied on
>the server.
>

Yadda, Yadda, Yadda...

>-- 
>Stephen R. Savitzky  <steve@rsv.ricoh.com>  <http://rsv.ricoh.com/~steve/>
>Platform for Information Applications:      <http://RiSource.org/PIA/>
>Chief Software Scientist, Ricoh Silicon Valley, Inc. Calif. Research Center
> voice: 650.496.5710  front desk: 650.496.5700  fax: 650.854.8740 
>  home: <steve@theStarport.org> URL: http://theStarport.org/people/steve/
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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>
>
>


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From tyler at infinet.com  Thu Jan 20 20:49:33 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com> <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3887745F.267EF1C6@infinet.com>

Len Bullard wrote:

> Don Park wrote:
> >
> > I think we will all benefit tremendously if there was just
> > one browser to support.  If AOL/Netscape exit the browser
> > 'business', Microsoft could be 'asked' politely to place IE
> > into public domain.  A non-profit open source organization
> > could be setup to coordinate merging of Mozilla and IE into a
> > universal browser and beyond.
>
> In the short run, yes, but not in the long run.  I do not care to
> see a public service browser because, and call me old fashioned,
> it is too much like a state run car factory.   Competition is
> still the best incentive to innovation.  The key is to define services
> that enable both innovation and reliability.  As engineers, the
> job is to figure out just how to do that.

Even then, there is no practical incentive for Netscape/AOL or MS to improve their
browsers anyways as they will always be free and never generate another penny of revenue
directly. A lot of people complain about why it has taken so long for Netscape to include
XSL support, and all I can say to them is "you get what you pay for". One browser or two
browsers or three browsers or four, it really does not matter because the incentive to
innovate with web browsers is no more.

Tyler


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From martind at netfolder.com  Thu Jan 20 20:50:57 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <qcu2k8pl62.fsf@congo.crc.ricoh.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEEPEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Stephen,

Stephen said:
I prefer to say -- Netscape is reasonably stable, and IE is a moving target.

In any case, Netscape + IE + Opera now make up a sizeable but rapidly-
decreasing fraction of the browser market -- or haven't you noticed the
number of connected WebTV's, Palm Pilots, cell phones, and recently kitchen
appliances?

Didier replies:
Its a very valid point of view. As we all know the reality can be perceived
in different ways. For some, if there is no new updates or innovations then
it is stagnant, for others it is stable. The funny thing is that both
perceptions are right :-)

About WebTv, yes I saw that the number is very very slowly increasing, palm
pilots and cell phone barely noticeable on the radar. However, for cell
phones, the numbers may be different in Europe. I am still digging to get
the numbers for Europe. And about kitchen appliances I just noticed that my
refrigerator sent me an ICQ message saying that it is empty and that I
should go do some shopping tonight :-)))).

Stephen said:
And the couple of hundred million Linux users who are going to be coming
online in places like China and India over the next few years aren't going
to be using Microsoft products, either.

Didier replies:
This is an interesting remark. In fact, the countries that you mention are
practicing software copy on a real industrial scale. Now that free software
is available, they get, it, study it, use it and will probably, in the 21
century, become strong silicon valley competitors. So, you are right that
Linux will probably find its biggest market there, not Microsoft, Microsoft
software anyway just got copied there, not sold.

Stephen said:
The mapping from XML to HTML (using XSLT and so on) is properly applied on
the server.

Didier replies:
Yes but the real advantage of XML+XSLT is that the transformation can occurs
on the client. As long as there is a lot of HTML client out there, people
will still use stuff like ASP, JSP, Cold fusion etc.. to produce HTML form
data bases content, or simply dump to the browser the HTML file stored on
the server. The real incentive to use XML is if
a) most actual servers like the relational database, directory services or
indexing servers send their data in an XML format.
b) the rendition process is made at client site.

otherwise, we will still have the status quo. And off course that I know
that XML can be transformed with XSLT on the server, My refrigerator does
that before sending me messages on ICQ :-))) Seriously, when (a) and (b)
conditions will be fulfilled, then XML market share will increase.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From costello at mitre.org  Thu Jan 20 20:55:26 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML Schema support for Interoperability?
Message-ID: <3887768B.E0DCF07A@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

I am interested in discussing what support XML Schemas provide for
enabling interoperability.  Below I present my understanding of the
support that XML Schemas provide.  If there are other ways that XML
Schemas enable interoperability I would be interested in hearing them.

... 

Oftentimes in daily conversation there are several ways to express
something.  
  - For example, "The boys went hiking." or "The guys went hiking".
     . Thus, "boys" and "guys" are equivalent.  Which word is used 
       may depend upon what part of the country you live in, what 
       mood you're in, or any number of factors.

We would like to be able to express this "equivalence" capability in XML
Schemas.  
  - We would like to be able to declare in the schema an element 
    called "boys", an element called "guys", and state that "guys" 
    is equivalent to "boys".  Thus, instance documents can use 
    either "boys" or "guys", depending on their preference.

With XML Schemas we can create an element (called the exemplar) and then
create other elements which state that they are equivalent to the
exemplar.  For example,

<element name="boys" type="string"/>
<element name="guys" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>

XML Schemas enables us to explicitly state that guys is equivalent to
boys.

If I write an application which expects a <boys> element, and I get an
XML document which contains a <guys> element then I can go to the XML
Schema document to see if <guys> is equivalent to the expected <boys>
element.  Thus, the schema is acting as an "interoperability schema".

A nice feature of the equivClass capability is that over time new
elements can be added to the schema and declared to be equivalent to the
<boys> element.  For example,

<element name="fellas" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>

Without any change, the application will continue to seemlessly work as
it consults the interoperability schema for equivalences.

Pretty cool, aye?  /Roger


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From steve at rsv.ricoh.com  Thu Jan 20 22:01:17 2000
From: steve at rsv.ricoh.com (Stephen R. Savitzky)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to browsers (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of Wed, 19 Jan 2000 10:14:39 -0000
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A67522D@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <qcogagpfo9.fsf@congo.crc.ricoh.com>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> Didier PH Martin wrote,
> > The important thing to see here, is that if we use a common 
> > format for either document or data, then data could be seen as a 
> > document. For instance, the marshaled content usually opaque can 
> > be seen as a document and displayed in a browser. Or a document 
> > could be transformed and fed to a CORBA/DCOM object. The end 
> > result versatility and a huge paradigm shift to do ;-)
> 
> Remember that my original question was, 'Why is _application_
> specific_ markup preferable to an _application_specific_ binary
> wire protocol'.

One answer to your original question is precisely that, with markup, the
data/document is free to evolve in non-application-specific directions.
The web is perhaps the ultimate expression of this -- clients and servers
have both proliferated, tied together only by a common protocol and markup
language. 

Another is that data can be stored in a file or database as well as going
over a wire.  As soon as you add persistance to the mix, markup languages
have a very clear advantage because it is much easier to change the internal
data representation, and to add and remove fields to the data structures.
As long as you have reasonable defaults you can continue to use, (or
optionally upgrade) the old files.
 
> XML encoding gets you a common generic format, but it doesn't
> get you semantic transparency. So, sure, you'd be able to
> parse the contents of XML rpc packets, but that doesn't mean
> you'll be able to do anything interesting with them.

"Semantic transparency" -- by which I assume you mean the ability to
transport behavior as well as data -- is IMHO usually a bad thing: it
severely limits your flexibility.  Of course, you can still do it, even in
XML: 

  <define element="factorial">
	<if><test-zero><get var="content"/></test-zero>
	    <then>1</then>
	    <else><factorial><subtract><get var="content"/> 1</subtract>
		  </factorial>
            </else>
        </if>
  </define>

but that doesn't mean it's usually a good idea.  Usually it's better to put
data and behavior (e.g. style; "business rules", ...) in separate documents. 

-- 
Stephen R. Savitzky  <steve@rsv.ricoh.com>  <http://rsv.ricoh.com/~steve/>
Platform for Information Applications:      <http://RiSource.org/PIA/>
Chief Software Scientist, Ricoh Silicon Valley, Inc. Calif. Research Center
 voice: 650.496.5710  front desk: 650.496.5700  fax: 650.854.8740 
  home: <steve@theStarport.org> URL: http://theStarport.org/people/steve/

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From falk at icon.at  Thu Jan 20 23:10:34 2000
From: falk at icon.at (Falk, Alexander)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: XML Spy 3.0b2 public beta release available for downloa
	d
Message-ID: <A01C76E644CAD111B83A0000E8D8890E0DBEE2@rasserver.icon.at>

Fellow XML developers,

a couple of days ago we produced the beta 2 release of our upcoming 3.0
version of XML Spy, which adds these major new features to our popular XML
editor: intelligent editing (based on the DTD/Schema), database view
(automatically creates tables out of repeating elements), advanced
import/export, improved file-type support, XSL transformations, and full
DTD/Schema editing.

Due to the positive feedback we've received from our over 900 registered
beta testers so far, we've decided to open this release to an entirely
public beta test and would therefore like to invite you all to download a
copy of XML Spy 3.0b2 and give it a spin. Participation in this public beta
program is, of course, free!

If you want to learn more about the 3.0b2 version and for download
instructions, please go to http://www.xmlspy.com/version30.asp

To encourage your participation and your active feedback, we will be giving
away 10 free 3.0 premium single-user licenses for the 10 most complete,
detailed, or useful bug reports that we receive during the beta program. We
will be announcing the winners on the very day when XML Spy 3.0 starts
shipping.

Enjoy,

Alexander Falk
Icon Information-Systems

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From eau at fast.fujitsu.com.au  Fri Jan 21 00:11:09 2000
From: eau at fast.fujitsu.com.au (Eric Ulevik)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <3.0.32.20000120095837.01508100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <019e01bf63a4$0b5a0ae0$edd2ac89@eaux>

From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>
> At 01:38 PM 1/19/00 -0800, Dave Winer wrote:
> >1. Web developers, who must look at the content exactly as their users
look
> >at it. For these people, today, that's MSIE 5.x on Windows, not any
content
> >handler, that specific one.
> Dave, please tell us you didn't really mean this.  I'm not talking about
> the IE5 issue; if you want to exclude a third of the market (at least;
there
> are still a lot of Macs and Unix boxes out there) from seeing your stuff,
> that's a business decision that you're free to take on its own merits.

>From the perspective of a web site developer, for government departments and
suchlike, it's looking like IE 5 will the only browser that matters by the
end of 2000.

I understand the theory why this is bad, but in practice it sure makes life
easier.

Regards,

Eric Ulevik



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From harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com  Fri Jan 21 00:18:01 2000
From: harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com (Betty L. Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <3887935C.B050F30F@free.fr>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001201848150.31995-100000@eccnet.eccnet.com>


Jean-Marc:

	I think Vector Markup Language is designed to provide 3D
graphics.  There is also some work being done to translate UML to XML but
I haven't been following this effort to see if they are considering
3D modelling.  

	You may be interested in looking at the work that Mark Roberts
from Infosphere (http://www.infosphere-inc.com) is doing for 3D
graphics in SGML.  They have developed a 3D graphic editor and plug-in
component for browsers that display the graphics.  They took a different
approach than VML.  Their solution is pretty impressive.  They are able
to import all CGM files from most of the CAD vendors that I am aware
of.  That in itself it impressive.  It is worth taking a look at their
approach and their product (Topaz).  

	Regarding Hugh's paper on Information Objects, the
STEP community decided to take another approach.  They are now looking
at binding Express with XML.  

	Last month I was in Kiruna, Sweden.  I met a group that was
looking at creating Tactile Maps for blind and visually handicapped
individuals.  There are currently no standards for creating Tactile Maps.  
They were also looking into the possibility of using XML.  I think that
XML is a great approach for this problem.  I have been trying to get some
of my U.S. contacts interested in helping support this effort to help them
provide a global standard.

	Hope this helps a little.

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. | 
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   | 
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/  

On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Jean-Marc Vanel wrote:

> Hello
> 
> I'm investigating syntaxes and formats for CAD (Computer Aided Design)
> data: IGES, STEP, etc. Apparently no XML thing exists in this field.
> Maybe use W3C's MathML vocabulary to express Bezier and NURBS algebra,
> together with a vocabulary borrowed from STEP.
> 
> I looked at viewpoint.com's Interchange(tm) 5.5 software which "is
> robust 3D file format translation software which converts 3D models to
> and from more than 40 formats".
> 
> The interesting thing here is that there is SO MANY  3D file formats to
> convert from, and also that 3D for image generation and visualization
> (e.g. Wavefront, 3D Studio )  is a different world from 3D for CAD.
> 
> This is a typical domain where XML would bring benefits. Hierarchical
> structure,  material and its properties, colors, textures, mapping,
> transformations, are all features that can be added by some processors
> and ignored by others, while being kept. This is also a domain where
> mixed vocabulary XML will appear very naturally.
> 
> And we need something like this for our plant descriptions!
> 
> I found an article "SGML Documentation Objects within the STEP
> Environment, by Hugh  Tucker", but I don't know where this project is.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> --
> <person>
>   <first_name>Jean-Marc</first_name>
>   <name>Vanel</name>
>   <project>Worlwide Botanical Database - making available botanical data
> on Internet
>     <a href="http://jmvanel.free.fr/" >site</a>
>   </project>
>   <a href="mailto:jmvanel@free.fr">mail</a>
> </person>
> 
> 
> 


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Fri Jan 21 00:35:51 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3887745F.267EF1C6@infinet.com>
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
 <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000120145030.00b42900@shell16.ba.best.com>

At Thursday 1/20/00 03:47 PM -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
>directly. A lot of people complain about why it has taken so long for 
>Netscape to include
>XSL support, and all I can say to them is "you get what you pay for". One 
>browser or two
>browsers or three browsers or four, it really does not matter because the 
>incentive to
>innovate with web browsers is no more.

"Free" browsers aren't guaranteed to last forever, any more than "free" 
razors or "free" salt pretzels in a bar. They're marketing "giveaways" 
designed to sell products. Given that Microsoft may or may not be here in a 
recognizable form in the fairly near future, it doesn't seem safe to count 
too many chickens based on continuing Microsoft dominance of the browser 
market either. IBM used to *own* the computing world, and it's now quite 
possible to spend months or years as a computer programmer without even 
hearing their name mentioned.

The most recent competitive strategy of giving away browsers was based on 
the fact that they have the potential to eliminate most or all of the 
operating system user interface and sell back ends based on their 
integration with back end products. Both Microsoft and Netscape used to 
charge for their browser products, remember? Netscape was targeting the 
Windows GUI as well as the NT Server market and Microsoft reacted with free 
and then "integrated" browsers built into the OS. There are still browser 
makers selling browsers (e.g. Opera) based on feature sets, even within 
standards and in the face of "free" competition.

Have you looked at the future plans and developments documents at W3C 
lately? There really does seem to be a grand and powerful vision there and 
the various XML-related standards have the potential to supercede *much* of 
the proprietary stuff the browser makers have done in the past and will do 
in the near future. Whether anyone agrees or not, hand-held devices will be 
browsing the Web in great numbers in the near future. XML and related 
standards make that possible. Look at the history of radio, which is almost 
a non-issue nowadays except in portable devices. Not everyone has no life 
away from their 17 inch monitor and really wants to surf the Web like early 
radio listeners spent hours glued to their custom consoles by headphone cords.

Standards don't mean that innovation stops any more than standardizing on 
using SAE (or metric) bolts, four rubber wheels, a gas pedal, and a 
steering wheel as the basis for an automobile means that we're all still 
driving Model T Fords. The Model T was made possible by standardization, 
and quickly surpassed custom-made cars within a few years. That doesn't 
mean that custom car makers are out of business; there are probably more 
custom car makers now than there ever were. But how many people do you know 
who own one?

The problem with browsers has been that heretofore the browser makers have 
been inventing their own nuts and bolts, so the tool kits of every designer 
have had to include tools to deal with all of them at great expense. While 
this is typical of an immature industry, standardization quickly drives 
custom solutions to the edge of the marketplace rather than the center.

If you look at the history of tools, *real* innovations and improvements in 
productivity have followed quickly on standardization. When SAE (and 
metric) nut and bolt sizes were agreed upon, socket sets and air wrenches 
followed because they were newly possible. Before that you had the choice 
of adjustable wrenches or custom wrenches designed for the particular item 
and that was it. A socket was too expensive to build when it only fit one 
nut and an air wrench needs sockets to be practical.

Programming languages have the same history; the first were designed to fit 
one machine and one machine only. The current software industry owes 
everything to standard languages which hide the details of the machine and 
enable the designer to concentrate on function and real innovation, not how 
many registers are available and whether a conditional branch can be made 
within the limits of a near jump.

There are an enormous number of innovations that a browser maker can make 
*within* the parameters of standards processes that can make life easier 
and more fun for users, just like automobile manufacturers compete on the 
basis of style, power, image, economy, and the hundred other tangible and 
intangible benefits that the customer sees in choosing a BMW over a Lexus, 
or a Jeep Cherokee over a Hummer.

But one of the many things a user *doesn't* have to decide is whether their 
local auto mechanic has a wrench that will fit the spark plugs, whether 
they prefer a steering wheel or a tiller, and whether they're able to use 
the highways designed for Fords or Chevrolets.



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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan 21 00:40:16 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000120163627.014f4100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 07:12 PM 1/20/00 -1000, Betty L. Harvey wrote:
>	I think Vector Markup Language is designed to provide 3D
>graphics.  There is also some work being done to translate UML to XML but
>I haven't been following this effort to see if they are considering
>3D modelling.  

Vector Markup Language (VML) is a Microsoft-proprietary 2-D (2 not 3)
vector-graphics system that uses XML syntax.  It will soon be replaced
by SVG, being developed by a group at the W3C (including Microsoft).
VML is pretty cool and SVG is massively cool.

VRML is Virtual Reality Modeling Language, now an ISO standard, a
very large & comprehensive VR language.  It uses a textual but non-XML
encoding format.  VRML has never taken off in the marketplace, opinions
differ as to why.

The VRML folk are working on a recasting of the language into a 
new version with among other things an XML syntax, go check out 
web3d.org. -Tim

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From tyler at infinet.com  Fri Jan 21 01:27:48 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
	 <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net> <4.2.0.58.20000120145030.00b42900@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <3887B598.59F09BA5@infinet.com>

Lee Anne Phillips wrote:

> At Thursday 1/20/00 03:47 PM -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
> >directly. A lot of people complain about why it has taken so long for
> >Netscape to include
> >XSL support, and all I can say to them is "you get what you pay for". One
> >browser or two
> >browsers or three browsers or four, it really does not matter because the
> >incentive to
> >innovate with web browsers is no more.
>
> "Free" browsers aren't guaranteed to last forever, any more than "free"
> razors or "free" salt pretzels in a bar. They're marketing "giveaways"
> designed to sell products. Given that Microsoft may or may not be here in a
> recognizable form in the fairly near future, it doesn't seem safe to count
> too many chickens based on continuing Microsoft dominance of the browser
> market either. IBM used to *own* the computing world, and it's now quite
> possible to spend months or years as a computer programmer without even
> hearing their name mentioned.

Very true. But I know of several restaurants who went down the tubes because their happy
hours were wayyyyy tooo extravagant and when they stopped giving out all the free stuff,
everyone got mad and stopped going to the restaurants altogether. Once you start giving
something away for free, you can basically never charge for it again as it has been
commoditized to such a low value.

> The most recent competitive strategy of giving away browsers was based on
> the fact that they have the potential to eliminate most or all of the
> operating system user interface and sell back ends based on their
> integration with back end products. Both Microsoft and Netscape used to
> charge for their browser products, remember? Netscape was targeting the
> Windows GUI as well as the NT Server market and Microsoft reacted with free
> and then "integrated" browsers built into the OS. There are still browser
> makers selling browsers (e.g. Opera) based on feature sets, even within
> standards and in the face of "free" competition.

Well I applaud the folks making the Opera browser, but any success they will ever have
will be severely limited because no average internet user will ever expect to pay for a
browser again, let alone any internet application. This culture of free stuff on the web
is what is destroying a lot of the internet companies out there as they find that once
they get their market share at an extraordinary cost, their users expect their services to
keep being free forever. ICQ before they were eventually bought out by AOL was constantly
trying to figure out a way to charge for ICQ, but the user revolt at the rumors were so
great that they found it impossible to even suggest charging a small monthly fee for the
service. And of course there are the web content sites whose entire income is based on
banner advertising. This well as everyone knows is quickly drying up as click-through
rates for banner ads are next to nothing these days, and many advertisers are pulling
banner ads from their marketing budgets altogether. It is no wonder the internet software
industry seems to have hit a point of stagnation, even though the user base of the
internet is growing exponentially.

> Have you looked at the future plans and developments documents at W3C
> lately? There really does seem to be a grand and powerful vision there and
> the various XML-related standards have the potential to supercede *much* of
> the proprietary stuff the browser makers have done in the past and will do
> in the near future. Whether anyone agrees or not, hand-held devices will be
> browsing the Web in great numbers in the near future. XML and related
> standards make that possible. Look at the history of radio, which is almost
> a non-issue nowadays except in portable devices. Not everyone has no life
> away from their 17 inch monitor and really wants to surf the Web like early
> radio listeners spent hours glued to their custom consoles by headphone cords.

Everyone knows the TV manufacturers make little or no money and often lose money on TV's
these days. The only reason they keep selling them is because making TV's helps keep a lot
of people employed as well as the fact that they are a gateway to selling other gadgets.

As for surfing the internet on cell-phones and other hand-held devices? Give me a break.
Maybe for checking a few sports scores or some stock quotes or a few text messages, but
browsing web sites? Perhaps when VR helmets and similiar technology becomes cheap enough
to manufacture at a profit for the web masses will we see people actively surfing the web
on something other than a notebook computer or PC.

> Standards don't mean that innovation stops any more than standardizing on
> using SAE (or metric) bolts, four rubber wheels, a gas pedal, and a
> steering wheel as the basis for an automobile means that we're all still
> driving Model T Fords. The Model T was made possible by standardization,
> and quickly surpassed custom-made cars within a few years. That doesn't
> mean that custom car makers are out of business; there are probably more
> custom car makers now than there ever were. But how many people do you know
> who own one?

Well, that was because Model T's were dirt cheap compared to everything else. The Model T
eventually almost drove Ford out of business because Henry Ford was too stubborn to try
and manufacture anything else.

> The problem with browsers has been that heretofore the browser makers have
> been inventing their own nuts and bolts, so the tool kits of every designer
> have had to include tools to deal with all of them at great expense. While
> this is typical of an immature industry, standardization quickly drives
> custom solutions to the edge of the marketplace rather than the center.

Standardization also somtimes is synonymous with stagnation. Once something is
standardized, by definition it is not supposed to change. I am not so sure standardizing
applications is a great idea. Yah it might benefit some people in the short term, but in
the long term you end up with applications like Navigator and IE that have no incentive to
improve. Does anyone ever remember to the term "internet years"? Whatever happened to that
concept? Did the computing world just totally burn out?

> If you look at the history of tools, *real* innovations and improvements in
> productivity have followed quickly on standardization. When SAE (and
> metric) nut and bolt sizes were agreed upon, socket sets and air wrenches
> followed because they were newly possible. Before that you had the choice
> of adjustable wrenches or custom wrenches designed for the particular item
> and that was it. A socket was too expensive to build when it only fit one
> nut and an air wrench needs sockets to be practical.

In some industries this is often the case. But comparing software to nuts and bolts is a
little too primitive a comparison I think. The software industry as everyone knows
operates by a different set of laws in rules in how it operates.

> Programming languages have the same history; the first were designed to fit
> one machine and one machine only. The current software industry owes
> everything to standard languages which hide the details of the machine and
> enable the designer to concentrate on function and real innovation, not how
> many registers are available and whether a conditional branch can be made
> within the limits of a near jump.

I completely agree. But web browsers are not akin to a programming language. Web browsers
are an application I feel even though their interface is somewhat defined by the content
coming from a web server. Many people may disagree but I really think that the web browser
had a lot more potential before certain mergers and acquisitions killed the corporate
culture over at Netscape.

> There are an enormous number of innovations that a browser maker can make
> *within* the parameters of standards processes that can make life easier
> and more fun for users, just like automobile manufacturers compete on the
> basis of style, power, image, economy, and the hundred other tangible and
> intangible benefits that the customer sees in choosing a BMW over a Lexus,
> or a Jeep Cherokee over a Hummer.

Of course. But what is the motivation to do so other than for the sheer public good. Why
should AOL care at all whether people use Netscape or not? Why should MS care whether
people use IE now that Netscape is a defunct company? Where is the motivation among
developers and companies to build a better browser?

> But one of the many things a user *doesn't* have to decide is whether their
> local auto mechanic has a wrench that will fit the spark plugs, whether
> they prefer a steering wheel or a tiller, and whether they're able to use
> the highways designed for Fords or Chevrolets.

Cars are not the same thing as software. But you illustrate my point exactly in that users
do have a clear choice between a Ford, Chevrolet, or something with a little more resale
value like a Honda or Toyota. In the software industry, users have the choice between two
stagnant browsers that will likely see few if any innovations in the years to come.

Tyler


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From paul at prescod.net  Fri Jan 21 01:46:55 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: VCRs and the Web
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA415@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3887B2E9.EE1CB92A@prescod.net>

Bill dehOra wrote:
> 
> Tyler,
> 
> :  Of course when the VCR first came out, many people thought
> :  that using it was a complicated
> :  task that only techie masters could ever understand, but
> :  somehow over the years even
> :  though the same buttons are there, everyone including 4 year
> :  olds know how to use a VCR.

When I got my VCR I couldn't figure out what "SP", "LP" and "SLP" stood
for. (I'm not very technical)

Luckily I found this website:

http://resolution.umn.edu/glossary/s.html

Draw your own conclusions.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, 
lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans.
	- Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998

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From mrys at microsoft.com  Fri Jan 21 03:31:08 2000
From: mrys at microsoft.com (Michael Rys)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
Message-ID: <783D93998201D311B0CF00805FEAA07B08AEA6AE@RED-MSG-42>

My apologies, hit the return to early.

What I meant to say is: 
Feel free to check out our SQLXML preview available from
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/xml/articles/xmlsql/sqlxml_prev.asp

Best regards
Michael
--
Michael Rys
Microsoft XML Repository -- We store the Web and more
mrys@microsoft.com, rys@acm.org



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Rys 
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 7:25 PM
> To: Brandt Dainow; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: RE: XML & Databases
> 
> 
> Feel free to have 
> --
> Michael Rys
> Microsoft XML Repository -- We store the Web and more
> mrys@microsoft.com, rys@acm.org
> 
> > | >-----Original Message-----
> > | >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
> > | >Behalf Of
> > | >LaShika M
> > | >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 4:04 AM
> > | >To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > | >Subject: XML & Databases
> > | >
> > | >
> > | >This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M"
> > | ><lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
> > | >Be sure to reply to that address.
> > | >
> > | >Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in
> > | >XML using Javascript?
> > | >Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for
> > | >a couple of days and I have a
> > | >assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of
> > | >if it is possible to extract info
> > | >out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another
> > | >database.  HELP!
> > | >
> > | >Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
> > | >
> > | >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> > | >mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> > | >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
> > | >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> > | >Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
> > | >for transfer to OASIS.
> > | >
> > | >
> > |
> > |
> > | xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, 
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> | Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ 
> or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> | Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in 
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> to OASIS.
> |
> |
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, 
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From mrys at microsoft.com  Fri Jan 21 03:29:00 2000
From: mrys at microsoft.com (Michael Rys)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML & Databases
Message-ID: <783D93998201D311B0CF00805FEAA07B08AEA6AB@RED-MSG-42>

Feel free to have 
--
Michael Rys
Microsoft XML Repository -- We store the Web and more
mrys@microsoft.com, rys@acm.org

> | >-----Original Message-----
> | >From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
> | >Behalf Of
> | >LaShika M
> | >Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2000 4:04 AM
> | >To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> | >Subject: XML & Databases
> | >
> | >
> | >This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "LaShika M"
> | ><lmcclu1@hallmark.com>
> | >Be sure to reply to that address.
> | >
> | >Is it possible to extract data out of a database and format in
> | >XML using Javascript?
> | >Is this a crazy thought?  I have only been looking at XML for
> | >a couple of days and I have a
> | >assignment quickly approaching need a High Level Explantion of
> | >if it is possible to extract info
> | >out of one database, put in XML format, transfer to another
> | >database.  HELP!
> | >
> | >Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
> | >
> | >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> | >mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> | >Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
> | >CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> | >Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
> | >for transfer to OASIS.
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> | xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, 
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
| Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
| Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
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|
|


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan 21 05:08:27 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
	 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000120142223.03963280@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <3887E3A0.B12@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> At 12:24 PM 1/20/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> 
> >The minute my customer requires a feature that only one browser supports
> >or supports reliably, they have contracted for a transaction.
> 
> If you produce work that only does exactly what a customer *thinks* they
> want, then that's how you'd accomplish this, yes. A good consultant,
> however, educates the client during the project phase that looks at needs.
> Indeed, if customers knew exactly what was best for them and how it worked,
> they would have little need to turn to consultants.

If the consultants who write the proposals that come to us knew as 
much about the system, I might buy it.  I don't.  Too many of the 
consultancies design instead of procure and they design all the 
way to the bleeding edge and beyond into fantasy.  Because of that, we 
have a PCR process designed to say "no" by default.  We design turnkey 
systems to be implemented on a site;  trainers educate.  Consultants 
advise and write, and sometimes completely screw over their customers. 
I put the HyTime ilink in MIL-D-87269;  I've been there.

Question:  do you know at what number or rate of transactions 
an ASP server fails?  If not, you aren't qualified to consult 
for our customers.  That is the level at which your thesis fails 
and if we were to rely on that, our customers would fail.  In our 
case, that means the ambulance does not get dispatched on time to your 
Mom's house when your uncle has a heart attack. 

Features analysis.  Failure mode effects analysis.  Reliability. 
This is what web engineers, not page artists, engineers must 
come to grips with.  This is what we need.  I can design a 
web page interface to do lots of splendid looking things, be 
more efficient, take fewer clicks, dance like an apsara if needs 
be, but if I click and ASP stares back going "huh!" not 
returning an error all because the MDAC is desynced (know 
how to prove that is the cause?), then the web is just one 
more piece of worthless crap: Darn Harmful To Mortal Life (DHTML).

Markup can make a system more reliable (figure it out) but it 
does nothing for the component level reliability and the components 
are where the webblicccattionns fall on their butts and die.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan 21 05:08:28 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
		 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29> <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3887E557.6D37@hiwaay.net>

David Brownell wrote:
> 
> The web is about open and, dare I say it, _commodity_ standards.
> 
> That's how it grew so quickly.  De-commoditizing would be a great
> short-term fix for some companies' market power, but bad long-term
> from the user perspectve due to a decreased ability for innovation
> to occur.

I've never said one should decommoditzize.  I say the commodities 
must meet reliability testing or be consigned to the open market 
of push cart vendors.  You can buy your food from the push cart, 
and you may like that, but unless there is a health inspector about, 
you've little to say about the food poisoning.

What some of us are saying is that we are voting with our feet 
and we vote for innovation and reliability, that is why we 
use IE and encourage or insist our customers do.  Universal 
access is not only not always needed, it is often undesirable.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Fri Jan 21 05:08:38 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001201848150.31995-100000@eccnet.eccnet.com>
Message-ID: <3887E773.6E29@hiwaay.net>

Betty L. Harvey wrote:
> 
> Jean-Marc:
> 
>         I think Vector Markup Language is designed to provide 3D
> graphics.  There is also some work being done to translate UML to XML but
> I haven't been following this effort to see if they are considering
> 3D modelling.
> 

SVG is 2D.  I know 3D has been discussed but not much more. 

For 3D in XML, go to the Web3D consortium and look at the X3D project. 
This is 
VRML (real time 3D) and will provide an XML encoding.  Several 
vendors have already implemented prototype players for you 
to work with complete with API.  The set of geometric elements 
ranges from indexed face sets, primitives, and NURBS.  I'd suggest 
some experiments with Blaxxun3D.

X3D drafts are being completed at this time.  There are still 
hiccups in the scene graph particularly with the mapping of 
nodes and fields to elements and attributes.  Since X3D must 
be extensible internally, PROTOs are still being debated.  
That said, X3D will be in workable shape by Siggraph.  If 
you have an interest in 3D in XML, I suggest you join the 
 
            x3d-contributors@web3d.org

list and dive right in.  There is also a good open source 
group working here, collboration with the MPEG4 community, 
and so forth.

Len Bullard



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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 21 05:29:37 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
	 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29> <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net> <3887E557.6D37@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <3887EEAF.486109DD@pacbell.net>

Len Bullard wrote:
> 
> David Brownell wrote:
> >
> > The web is about open and, dare I say it, _commodity_ standards.
> >
> > That's how it grew so quickly.  De-commoditizing would be a great
> > short-term fix for some companies' market power, but bad long-term
> > from the user perspectve due to a decreased ability for innovation
> > to occur.
> 
> I've never said one should decommoditzize.

I never said you said so -- don't take it personally!

However, the premise that it's OK to design "IE5-only" is
nothing less than a premise that it's OK to decommoditize.


>	  I say the commodities
> must meet reliability testing or be consigned to the open market
> of push cart vendors.  You can buy your food from the push cart,
> and you may like that, but unless there is a health inspector about,
> you've little to say about the food poisoning.

Curious, albeit non-relevant, analogy in response to my point.

So you're in favor of government regulation of the web, then?
Only licenced and approved browsers, limited to IE5?  Else I'm
not sure I see the relevance of what you said.

- Dave

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From IndrajitC at catsglobal.co.in  Fri Jan 21 06:15:20 2000
From: IndrajitC at catsglobal.co.in (Indrajit Chaudhuri)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:29 2004
Subject: XML Schema --> C++
References: <C125686C.0035564C.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr> <000a01bf6336$44e49c80$252f0a0f@india.hp.com>
Message-ID: <3887F9AE.34620076@catsglobal.co.in>

There is a tool from Oracle which generates C++ classes from a DTD
specified in an XML file. The tool is available here :
http://technet.oracle.com/tech/xml/classgen_cpp/


Thanks,
Indrajit


Abhishek Srivastava wrote:
> 
> I also want to auto generate code of a c++ class that could contain the data
> of an XML file.
> I tried to create one but found it very complex as the DTD can have
> 
> 1. any level of nested elements and aggregates.
> 2. Elements and attributes can optional.
> 3. The OR conditions that are specified in the DTD.
> 
> Is it possible we have something like a IDL compiler ? the idl compiler
> reads the IDL file and generates C++ classes that can be used to implement
> that object. Can a utility read a DTD or a schema and auto generate the code
> for a C++ class.
> 
> This utility will be very useful, as many legacy systems do not understand
> the DOM tree or xml... so in order to reuse the legacy code the data from
> the dom tree needs to be put in a regular c++ object and fed to the legacy
> system and the output from a C++ object converted to xml and then sent over
> the web.
> 
> If an effort is started to write such a utility what other complexities
> might arise ?
> 
> regards,
> Abhishek.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jean Marc VANEL" <jean-marc_vanel@effix.fr>
> To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>; <xml-dev-ig%PMDF%MHMAIL@mr.effix.fr>; "tcs-infra"
> <tcs-infra@effix.fr>; "Madjid OUTENAH" <m_outenah@effix.fr>;
> <s_durfort@mailhub.effix.fr>; <j_lolieux@mailhub.effix.fr>;
> <f_clerc@mailhub.effix.fr>; <thomas_moutel@effix.fr>; <d_asseline@effix.fr>;
> <guy_dauchet@effix.fr>; "Sonia BILLINGS" <s_billings@effix.fr>
> Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 3:12 PM
> Subject: XML Schema --> C++
> 
> >
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > I want to try to generate C++ class declarations from an XML Schema .
> >
> > Something like:
> >
> > <template select = '//type' >
> >   class <value-of select="@name"/> {
> >    <apply-templates/>
> >   };
> > </template>
> >
> > <template select = '//element' >
> >   <value-of select="@type"/> <value-of select="@name"/> ;
> > </template>
> >
> > Remarks:
> > - not yet tested
> > - as writen this would generate embeded classes
> > - ID's and IDREF's would map to void* and list<void*>
> > - same principle could be applied to Java etc
> > - it is desirable to also generate code to fill the C++ objects using DOM
> or SAX API, but it seems more difficult
> > - it's also possible (another project!) to parse C++ declarations and
> generate an XML Schema ; could a round-trip be possible ?
> >
> >
> >
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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Fri Jan 21 07:30:38 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: RFC : XML representation of a HTTP request
Message-ID: <38880B4E.CFB2EFD0@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

In a java servlet environment, I have developed a mapping of the HTTP
request into a result tree fragment through sax events and I'd like to
have your feedback on the structure I am proposing.

Currently, this structure is something which, translated into XML, would
be like :

<request>
  <headers>
    <accept-charset>iso-8859-1,*,utf-8</accept-charset>
    <accept-language>en</accept-language>
    <host>xmlbinder</host>
    <cookie>Apache=192.127.127.3.2835094787032722</cookie>
    .../...
  </headers>
  <variables>
    <REQUEST_METHOD>GET<REQUEST_METHOD>
    <URI>/result-tree/example.xml</URI>
    <SCRIPT_NAME>/xmlbind/XSLServlet</SCRIPT_NAME>
    .../...
  </variables>
  <parameters>
    <x>2</x>
    <y>3</y>
  </parameters>
</request>

(It could be extended to the cookies as well.)

The names of the headers, variables or parameters is used as the name of
the entities.

The path to the variable "URI" is therefore : "/request/variables/URI".

Would it be better to have a common entity name and something like :

       <parameter name="x">2</parameter>

The path to the variable "URI" would then be  :
"/request/variables/variable[@name='URI']".

If it's the case and if we have different entity names for the
parameters, headers, variables (and later on cookies), do we need to
keep a structured path to these different entities since a path of 
"/request/variable[@name='URI']" would already be sufficient to
differentiate the variable "URI" from a possible parameter "URI" ?

And of course, If I am reinventing the wheel and if a XML schema to
represent a request context has already been defined, I'll be very glad
to know it !

Related links :

http://downloads.dyomedea.com/java/examples/xslservlet/result-tree/
	(the example with its code)

http://www.egroups.com/group/xml-tips/info.html
	(newly created discussion list for these "tips")


Thanks for your feedback.

Eric

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From rose at tele.dtu.dk  Fri Jan 21 09:52:40 2000
From: rose at tele.dtu.dk (Michael Rose)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3887E557.6D37@hiwaay.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
 <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net> <3887E557.6D37@hiwaay.net>
Message-ID: <v04210101b4add5ed542b@[192.38.86.50]>

At 10:49 PM -0600 1/20/00, Len Bullard wrote:
>
>
>What some of us are saying is that we are voting with our feet
>and we vote for innovation and reliability, that is why we
>use IE and encourage or insist our customers do.  Universal
>access is not only not always needed, it is often undesirable.
>
 
There is a question about innovation and standards here. If 
hypothetical browsers X and Y are both fully compliant with all 
existing W3C standards, does that still leave the browsers enough 
room so that their presentation of the same content or their 
functionality will be significantly different.

If the answer the answer to that question is yes (which apparently it 
is), and if that difference is important (which it seems to be to a 
significant number of developers here) then shouldn't future W3C 
standards address this problem? Otherwise, why should we even bother 
with the standards?

If browsers are really a commodity then, as others have said, the 
innovations should go through the W3C. Then browsers X and Y can 
compete on other features, reliability being an excellent example.


Cheers,

Michael

  ************************************************
Michael Rose
Center for Tele-Information,    Technical University of Denmark
mailto:rose@tele.dtu.dk              http://www.cti.dtu.dk/personal/rose
Multimedia in the Home - http://mmhome.cit.dk
'and what is the use of a computer' thought Alice 'without pictures 
or conversation'                      with apologies to Lewis Carroll
*************************************************

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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 10:00:52 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA41A@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  Everyone knows the TV manufacturers make little or no money 
:  and often lose money on TV's
:  these days. The only reason they keep selling them is 
:  because making TV's helps keep a lot
:  of people employed as well as the fact that they are a 
:  gateway to selling other gadgets.

You're giving TV manufacturers too much credit methinks.

 
:  Standardization also somtimes is synonymous with stagnation. 
:  Once something is
:  standardized, by definition it is not supposed to change. 

Que? Standards are about pace and consensus, not stagnation. Standards do
change, just not very quickly.


:  I completely agree. But web browsers are not akin to a 
:  programming language. Web browsers
:  are an application I feel even though their interface is 
:  somewhat defined by the content
:  coming from a web server. Many people may disagree but I 
:  really think that the web browser
:  had a lot more potential before certain mergers and 
:  acquisitions killed the corporate
:  culture over at Netscape.

What potential? Content and media styles drive browsers. People need
browsers to see this cool stuff. Bowsers are just rendering engines at the
end of the day. The main room for improvement in the *browser* I can see is
in the UIs which are junk. There were better browser interface ideas going
around 20 years ago. Even Vannevar Bush had better ideas about bookmarks
than the major browsers do now, and that was fifty years ago.
 

:  Of course. But what is the motivation to do so other than 
:  for the sheer public good. Why
:  should AOL care at all whether people use Netscape or not? 
:  Why should MS care whether
:  people use IE now that Netscape is a defunct company? Where 
:  is the motivation among
:  developers and companies to build a better browser?

Hey, maybe it keeps a lot of people employed : ) But these companies aren't
about building better browsers, they're about share, be that market  or
mind. Browsers are a way to achieve that. Do you think for a minute that AOL
want their subscribers using IE over Netscape?

But generally, tell me, why do we need more 'innovation' in browsers. If
anything they needed the fat cut off them, ie removing the last three years
'innovation'. Real innovation *might* come with an open browser, just like
it did with a certain open operating system. I rather pay for an open source
browser than have a free one I can't access.


:  Cars are not the same thing as software. But you illustrate 
:  my point exactly in that users
:  do have a clear choice between a Ford, Chevrolet, or 
:  something with a little more resale
:  value like a Honda or Toyota. In the software industry, 
:  users have the choice between two
:  stagnant browsers that will likely see few if any 
:  innovations in the years to come.

No bad thing in my view. Continuous innovation is no better than continuous
stagnation.

Regards,

Bill 


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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 10:08:30 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA41B@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  ...SVG is massively cool.

That's an understatement. SVG will revolutionise the Web.

-Bill 

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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Fri Jan 21 10:48:47 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000120145030.00b42900@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001210229570.15850-100000@netcom5.netcom.com>

On Thu, 20 Jan 2000, Lee Anne Phillips wrote:
> If you look at the history of tools, *real* innovations and improvements in 
> productivity have followed quickly on standardization. When SAE (and 
> metric) nut and bolt sizes were agreed upon, socket sets and air wrenches 
> followed because they were newly possible. Before that you had the choice 
> of adjustable wrenches or custom wrenches designed for the particular item 
> and that was it. A socket was too expensive to build when it only fit one 
> nut and an air wrench needs sockets to be practical.

Suggested reading for everyone: Chapter 10 ("Standards and Regulations")
of W. Edwards Deming's _Out of the Crisis_.  Deming points out just how
much of what we know as commerce is possible only *because* competitors
have agreed to abide by standards.

> But one of the many things a user *doesn't* have to decide is whether their 
> local auto mechanic has a wrench that will fit the spark plugs, whether 
> they prefer a steering wheel or a tiller, and whether they're able to use 
> the highways designed for Fords or Chevrolets.

And when that hot new e-commerce startup decides to advertise on TV,
they'll have to make all sorts of audience-targeting decisions: what shows
to advertise on, whether to portray a "mild" or "wild" image, etc., but
one decision they'll *never* have to make, and will be extremely *glad*
they *don't* have to make, is whether to design their ads for viewing on
Panasonic TV sets or Sony TV sets.  Because TV signals are standardized,
it costs *nothing* extra for them to produce commercials that can be seen
on *all* brands of TV sets.  Of course, if they want to advertize
internationally then they *will* have to do two or three different
versions, because the standardization is only national, not international.  
But they'd be better off if they didn't have to.

And if that new startup is selling laptops and I buy one, I know that the
batteries will charge just as well on the ConEd power in New York as they
will on the ComEd power here in Chicago.  And that of all the tradeoffs
I'll have to make in deciding which model to buy, "time to learn to type
with a new keyboard layout" isn't one of them.

It is precisely *because* of standards that commerce can function on a
basis other than winner-take-all.  And, as Deming points out, industry
standards can reduce the need for regulation.

The winner-take-all version of the WWW would have been hyperlinked
Microsoft Word documents.



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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 10:50:28 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD647@SENMAIL3>

	>Is that really what they want? Somehow I doubt it. 
	They have told us !

	>Somehow I doubt it. I have this funny 
	>feeling that what they want to do is browse a database, or have 
	>customers place orders, or play games, or something else that's an 
	>end in itself.
	Yep, but they want a client/server environment and not constant
clicking - I wish they would play games, at least it'd take my headache
away. It's a kind of heldesk environment, so they need instant access to
loads of different types of data, but to be able to view related data at the
same time - hence an incremently marked up (kind of dynamic client cache)
XML doc on the client.

	>If this is an Intranet, you might be able to pull off what you 
	>suggest. If it's the public Web, then it's hopeless. Tell your
client 
	>that they will piss off and lose customers if they do this UNLESS 
	>they provide a seamless alternative to the underlying
functionality.

Fortunately is is an Extranet environment, so we good control over our
browsers.
We are planning to develop a cut down version for non-xml browsers.

Cheers,
Steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Elliotte Rusty Harold [SMTP:elharo@metalab.unc.edu]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 18:54
> To:	Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM; 'XML Dev'
> Cc:	Ann Navarro
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> At 4:05 PM +0000 1/20/00, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
> >
> >
> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest innovations just
> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
> >
> >I am just out of a 2 hour meeting where we tried to follow in our
> previous
> >project *exactly* what you have been suggesting. They want these menu's
> to
> >ease navigation, they want different page looks depending on who they
> are,
> >they want help when they press F1 etc etc etc... This is more than 2000
> >people saying this.
> >
> >In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
> >(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
> >client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
> >
> 
> Is that really what they want? Somehow I doubt it. I have this funny 
> feeling that what they want to do is browse a database, or have 
> customers place orders, or play games, or something else that's an 
> end in itself. I find it hard to believe that the front-end is really 
> the mission critical part of an app. It sounds like the client has 
> strong ideas of what front end they want, but I doubt that's the app.
> 
> If this is an Intranet, you might be able to pull off what you 
> suggest. If it's the public Web, then it's hopeless. Tell your client 
> that they will piss off and lose customers if they do this UNLESS 
> they provide a seamless alternative to the underlying functionality.
> 
> FileMaker Pro does a pretty good job of something like this. If you 
> connect to a FileMaker database using IE5, you'll get a very fancy 
> site that uses DHTML heavily to reproduce the exact look and feel of 
> the underlying database. If you connect with Netscape, you'll get a 
> less snazzy but still completely functional table and form based 
> page. There's no extra work for the user or the publisher here. Of 
> course I suspect the people who programmed FileMaker had to work very 
> hard to make it this easy.
> 
> 
> +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
> | Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
> +-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
> |                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
> |              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
> |   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
> +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
> |  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
> |  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
> +----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 11:00:42 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD64D@SENMAIL3>

	Stephen said:
	And the couple of hundred million Linux users who are going to be
coming
	online in places like China and India over the next few years aren't
going
	to be using Microsoft products, either.

	Didier replies:
	This is an interesting remark. In fact, the countries that you
mention are
	practicing software copy on a real industrial scale. Now that free
software
	is available, they get, it, study it, use it and will probably, in
the 21
	century, become strong silicon valley competitors. So, you are right
that
	Linux will probably find its biggest market there, not Microsoft,
Microsoft
software anyway just got copied there, not sold.

     Steven II says :
     One off-shoot of this thread is that more applications are going to
come online and you will be able to access Office type applications, account
packages etc.. all on the web, so the need for any particular client OS will
become less important (for most users). All you will need is Netsacpe or IE
on the client and you will be able to do pretty much everything most users
want. For MS, servers are their future - most people just won't need the
full power of any OS (like my mum who still uses only Word and Excel after 5
years...).

cheers
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 08:52
> To:	Stephen R. Savitzky
> Cc:	Tim Bray; Don Park; 'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> Hi Stephen,
> 
> Stephen said:
> I prefer to say -- Netscape is reasonably stable, and IE is a moving
> target.
> 
> In any case, Netscape + IE + Opera now make up a sizeable but rapidly-
> decreasing fraction of the browser market -- or haven't you noticed the
> number of connected WebTV's, Palm Pilots, cell phones, and recently
> kitchen
> appliances?
> 
> Didier replies:
> Its a very valid point of view. As we all know the reality can be
> perceived
> in different ways. For some, if there is no new updates or innovations
> then
> it is stagnant, for others it is stable. The funny thing is that both
> perceptions are right :-)
> 
> About WebTv, yes I saw that the number is very very slowly increasing,
> palm
> pilots and cell phone barely noticeable on the radar. However, for cell
> phones, the numbers may be different in Europe. I am still digging to get
> the numbers for Europe. And about kitchen appliances I just noticed that
> my
> refrigerator sent me an ICQ message saying that it is empty and that I
> should go do some shopping tonight :-)))).
> 
> Stephen said:
> And the couple of hundred million Linux users who are going to be coming
> online in places like China and India over the next few years aren't going
> to be using Microsoft products, either.
> 
> Didier replies:
> This is an interesting remark. In fact, the countries that you mention are
> practicing software copy on a real industrial scale. Now that free
> software
> is available, they get, it, study it, use it and will probably, in the 21
> century, become strong silicon valley competitors. So, you are right that
> Linux will probably find its biggest market there, not Microsoft,
> Microsoft
> software anyway just got copied there, not sold.
> 
> Stephen said:
> The mapping from XML to HTML (using XSLT and so on) is properly applied on
> the server.
> 
> Didier replies:
> Yes but the real advantage of XML+XSLT is that the transformation can
> occurs
> on the client. As long as there is a lot of HTML client out there, people
> will still use stuff like ASP, JSP, Cold fusion etc.. to produce HTML form
> data bases content, or simply dump to the browser the HTML file stored on
> the server. The real incentive to use XML is if
> a) most actual servers like the relational database, directory services or
> indexing servers send their data in an XML format.
> b) the rendition process is made at client site.
> 
> otherwise, we will still have the status quo. And off course that I know
> that XML can be transformed with XSLT on the server, My refrigerator does
> that before sending me messages on ICQ :-))) Seriously, when (a) and (b)
> conditions will be fulfilled, then XML market share will increase.
> 
> Cheers
> Didier PH Martin
> ----------------------------------------------
> Email: martind@netfolder.com
> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
> 
> 
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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 11:10:55 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: XML Certificates
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B0D@SENMAIL3>

Anybody doing much work with XML Certificates for security??

Where's the best place to find out more about these and what is the support
at CA's and web server like for them??
Not something I know much about right now, so thanks.

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 11:16:47 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
Message-ID: <000001bf6400$2289d860$dcd65c8b@p300>

Why should the web require a special app at all?  I don't need one app to
access local files and another for those on the server?  We still treat the
web like something outside our normal working space.  We should see local
storage as just web space which happens to be very close.  I know we use
different protocols for local vs web access, but we use more than one
protocol on the web anyway.

In 1985 I heard Bill Gates say that users shouldn't have to worry about
where information is located at all, that's a technical issue for the
software.  He's right.  That's one reason why Microsoft were so keen to get
the browser into the OS.  Web access should be a fundamental aspect of
standard I/O capabilities.  In the long term, of course, it will be...

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>James Tauber
>Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 4:00 PM
>To: xml-dev
>Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>At 11:19 AM 1/17/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>>The future is outside the web browser.
>
>Actually, I think the future is increasingly *in* the web browser.
>
>I'm reminded of this everytime I use Microsoft Money. Local and network
>information is pretty much seamlessly brought together and presented
>essentially via a browser embedded in the Money application.
>
>James
>--
>James Tauber               jtauber@bowstreet.com
>Director XML Technology    www.jtauber.com
>Bowstreet Software, Inc.   www.bowstreet.com
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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>CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation
>for transfer to OASIS.
>
>


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From: cristiane at plantel.com.br (Cristiane Santana C Santos)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 12:52:24 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: VCRs and the Web
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B34@SENMAIL3>

I have the same problem with EtchASketch, but luckily I found this site.
http://www.clark.net/pub/stacyi/teal/scott/humor/q_and_a/etchaskt.htm

Nice to know other things peolpe do when not writing XML parsers :-)

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Paul Prescod [SMTP:paul@prescod.net]
> Sent:	21 January 2000 01:14
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	VCRs and the Web
> 
> Bill dehOra wrote:
> > 
> > Tyler,
> > 
> > :  Of course when the VCR first came out, many people thought
> > :  that using it was a complicated
> > :  task that only techie masters could ever understand, but
> > :  somehow over the years even
> > :  though the same buttons are there, everyone including 4 year
> > :  olds know how to use a VCR.
> 
> When I got my VCR I couldn't figure out what "SP", "LP" and "SLP" stood
> for. (I'm not very technical)
> 
> Luckily I found this website:
> 
> http://resolution.umn.edu/glossary/s.html
> 
> Draw your own conclusions.
> 
> -- 
>  Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
> Earth will soon support only survivor species -- dandelions, roaches, 
> lizards, thistles, crows, rats. Not to mention 10 billion humans.
> 	- Planet of the Weeds, Harper's Magazine, October 1998
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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> 981-02-3594-1
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> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.

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From ann at webgeek.com  Fri Jan 21 13:58:38 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3887B598.59F09BA5@infinet.com>
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
 <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net>
 <4.2.0.58.20000120145030.00b42900@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000121085807.03969af0@216.65.70.29>

At 08:25 PM 1/20/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:

>As for surfing the internet on cell-phones and other hand-held devices? Give 
>me a break.
>Maybe for checking a few sports scores or some stock quotes or a few text 
>messages, but
>browsing web sites?

Sure, it's done all the time. Today, quite often by power users and
business elite, but it's growing. And it's not that hard. 

Take a look at http://www.kynn.com/quislet/ for a view of the web from a
palm-style WinCE device. (Quislet being the machine name of that device)

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Fri Jan 21 14:07:22 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
Message-ID: <200001211412.JAA17534@trinity.viaduct.com>

Hi all.
During the definition of a schema for instances product of Object
serialization, I begin to wonder about the implications of derivation
by restriction in XML: Schema when used with OO apps...

Is derivation by restriction necessary/desirable? could anyone
please explain the need behind it a bit? Is D by R a "threat" to
the conformance[1] principle when using schema to define object
hierarchies? 

just oblique thoughts... :) comments?

Fabio


[1] loosely put, the traditional conformance principle in OO states: If B
inherits from A, B can be used wherever A can be used.

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.		        Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			         Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: "Feed the recording back out of the medium"

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From ann at webgeek.com  Fri Jan 21 14:11:11 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3887E3A0.B12@hiwaay.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120142223.03963280@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000121091035.047d69b0@216.65.70.29>

At 10:42 PM 1/20/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:

> That is the level at which your thesis fails 
>and if we were to rely on that, our customers would fail.  In our 
>case, that means the ambulance does not get dispatched on time to your 
>Mom's house when your uncle has a heart attack. 

Quite frankly, putting a CAD system in the hands of ASP scares me more than
anything else a consultant might or might not know.

Ann (veteran of 10 years behind the mike between San Jose PD/FD, King
County (WA) PD, and Monterey County, CA consolidated PD/FD dispatch centers). 



---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 14:13:01 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA41B@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <000301bf6418$a2ce8760$dcd65c8b@p300>

Maybe - Microsoft have standardized on (and deployed in Office2000) VML.  So
now we have VML versus SVG.  SVG won't revolutionise anything while 90% of
application users are running VML.

I'm not qualified to take sides, but I don't think we need both.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Bill dehOra
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 10:08 AM
>To: 'Tim Bray'
>Cc: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: XML for 3D geometry and objects
>
>
>
>:  ...SVG is massively cool.
>
>That's an understatement. SVG will revolutionise the Web.
>
>-Bill
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
>mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
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>
>


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 14:13:25 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEDKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <000401bf6418$a54330e0$dcd65c8b@p300>

Good idea.  I concatenated a log analysis of ours and four customer's sites
together with webtrends for last week.  Here's the browser report (I know
there's some rubbish in it, but I wanted to demonstrate the complete
result).  Sample size about 11,000 visitor sessions:-

Microsoft Internet Explorer 70.31%
Netscape 27.42%
Java1.1.7 0.33%
AE/2.1 (linux) 0.07%
Other Netscape Compatible 0.88%
9 0.05%  (don't ask me what '9' is)
The Informant 0.05%
Googlebot/1.0 0.11%
ia_archiver 0.01%
Wget/1.4.3 0.07%
Teleport Pro/1.29 0.58%
Other's listed as single visits only:-
WebCompass, Mata Hari/1.10, gazz/1.0, TITAN/6.0, Microsoft URL Control,
webcollage/1.32,libwww-perl/5.47, EmailSiphon, Wget/1.5.3

Breakdown of NS and IE versions is:-
NETSCAPE: 4.x=94.35%; 3.x=5.64% (of Netscape visits)
IE: 5.x= 66.3%, 4.x=32.97%, 3.x= .031%, 2.x=0.4%

SUMMARY:
IE 5= 46.6%
IE 4= 23.2%
NS 4= 25.8%
NS 3= 01.5%
REST= 02.9%

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Didier PH Martin
>Sent: Thursday, January 20, 2000 4:15 AM
>To: 'XML Dev'; Elliotte Rusty Harold
>Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>Hi
>
>Elliotte said:
>These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less
>than 50% ....
>
>Didier replies:
>To get an objective picture, do people can suggest sites
>having statistics
>about browsers, I promise to make an average of all these numbers and
>publish them back to the group. This way, we'll have a more
>objective base
>for our thinking and we will resemble less to a parliament or
>a senate :-))
>
>Cheers
>
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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From soni at csa.iisc.ernet.in  Fri Jan 21 14:21:39 2000
From: soni at csa.iisc.ernet.in (Preeti Soni)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.96.1000121194836.4932B-100000@jupiter.csa.iisc.ernet.in>


unsubscribe 




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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Fri Jan 21 14:21:21 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000121091605.28290A-100000@isis.uniandes.edu.co>

Hi all.
During the definition of a schema for instances product of Object
serialization, I begin to wonder about the implications of derivation
by restriction in XML: Schema when used with OO apps...

Is derivation by restriction necessary/desirable? could anyone
please explain the need behind it a bit? Is D by R a "threat" to
the conformance[1] principle when using schema to define object
hierarchies? 

just oblique thoughts... ;) comments?

Fabio


[1] loosely put, the traditional conformance principle in OO states: If B
inherits from A, B can be used wherever A can be used.

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.		        Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			         Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: "Feed the recording back out of the medium"



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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 14:25:27 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675254@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Brandt Dainow wrote,
> SUMMARY:
> IE 5= 46.6%
> IE 4= 23.2%
> NS 4= 25.8%
> NS 3= 01.5%
> REST= 02.9%

I still have a gut feeling that 46.6% is unrepresentatively 
high.

Incidentally, I gather that AOL have been mailing their
user base recently, notifying them that the next release of
the AOL browser will be Netscape rather than IE based. I
wonder what that switch will do to the stats ...

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 14:36:23 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000120163627.014f4100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <000701bf641b$e6b6d6a0$dcd65c8b@p300>

VML is NOT a proprietary MS system.  It is a W3C submission from Microsoft,
HP, and Visio.  Check out http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Tim Bray
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 12:37 AM
>To: Betty L. Harvey; Jean-Marc Vanel
>Cc: robertsm@infosphere-inc.corpex.com; Patrick Laug;
>staffan.bergbom@lm.se; hugh@documenta.dk; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: Re: XML for 3D geometry and objects
>
>
>At 07:12 PM 1/20/00 -1000, Betty L. Harvey wrote:
>>	I think Vector Markup Language is designed to provide 3D
>>graphics.  There is also some work being done to translate
>UML to XML but
>>I haven't been following this effort to see if they are considering
>>3D modelling.
>
>Vector Markup Language (VML) is a Microsoft-proprietary 2-D (2 not 3)
>vector-graphics system that uses XML syntax.  It will soon be replaced
>by SVG, being developed by a group at the W3C (including Microsoft).
>VML is pretty cool and SVG is massively cool.
>
>VRML is Virtual Reality Modeling Language, now an ISO standard, a
>very large & comprehensive VR language.  It uses a textual but non-XML
>encoding format.  VRML has never taken off in the marketplace, opinions
>differ as to why.
>
>The VRML folk are working on a recasting of the language into a
>new version with among other things an XML syntax, go check out
>web3d.org. -Tim
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 14:36:19 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD596@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <000601bf641b$e3ff09a0$dcd65c8b@p300>

What short memories this industry has.  I can remember programming GUI-like
interfaces on MS DOS 1.0.  I didn't have a mouse, of course, but I had
dialog boxes, menus, etc.  It wasn't much fun manually drawing boxes 1 pixel
at a time, but we did it.  The platform at the time was 8088 with 256K RAM.

Don't automatically reach for the technology when a little creative thinking
and effort can do the job instead.  As my old woodwork teacher used to say,
"It's a poor workman who blames his tools."

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com


>In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
>(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
>client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
></quote>
>
>???
>
>cheers
>steven
>
>Steven Livingstone
>Glasgow, Scotland.
>07771 957 280 or +447771957280
>
>Pro XML
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
>Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
>Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
>> Sent:	20 January 2000 16:19
>> To:	Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM; 'XML Dev'
>> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>>
>> At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
>> >I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or
>> application
>> >developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce
>based sites
>> for
>> >me are in the main content based sites where you can click
>"buy-me" - not
>> >applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple
>> browser
>> >types.
>> >
>> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest
>innovations just
>> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
>>
>>
>> No, I'm not missing the point.
>>
>> If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer,
>you're missing your
>> own point -- serving your customers.
>>
>> Ann
>> ---
>> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
>> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
>> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
>>
>> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
>> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
>> Director, HWG Online Education
>> http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
>>
>>
>>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
981-02-3594-1
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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 14:50:15 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B53@SENMAIL3>

So what happened to DOS GUI-like applications?

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Brandt Dainow [SMTP:bd@internet-etc.com]
> Sent:	21 January 2000 14:15
> To:	'XML Dev'
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> What short memories this industry has.  I can remember programming
> GUI-like
> interfaces on MS DOS 1.0.  I didn't have a mouse, of course, but I had
> dialog boxes, menus, etc.  It wasn't much fun manually drawing boxes 1
> pixel
> at a time, but we did it.  The platform at the time was 8088 with 256K
> RAM.
> 
> Don't automatically reach for the technology when a little creative
> thinking
> and effort can do the job instead.  As my old woodwork teacher used to
> say,
> "It's a poor workman who blames his tools."
> 
> Brandt Dainow
> bd@internet-etc.com
> Internet Etc Ltd
> http://www.internet-etc.com
> 
> 
> >In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
> >(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
> >client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
> ></quote>
> >
> >???
> >
> >cheers
> >steven
> >
> >Steven Livingstone
> >Glasgow, Scotland.
> >07771 957 280 or +447771957280
> >
> >Pro XML
> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
> >Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
> >Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
> >
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
> >> Sent:	20 January 2000 16:19
> >> To:	Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM; 'XML Dev'
> >> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> >>
> >> At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
> >> >I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or
> >> application
> >> >developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce
> >based sites
> >> for
> >> >me are in the main content based sites where you can click
> >"buy-me" - not
> >> >applications) where I agree your site should be built for multiple
> >> browser
> >> >types.
> >> >
> >> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest
> >innovations just
> >> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
> >>
> >>
> >> No, I'm not missing the point.
> >>
> >> If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer,
> >you're missing your
> >> own point -- serving your customers.
> >>
> >> Ann
> >> ---
> >> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> >> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
> >> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
> >>
> >> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> >> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> >> Director, HWG Online Education
> >> http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
> 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
> unsubscribe xml-dev  (or)
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> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
> to OASIS.
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ckaiman at i3solutions.com  Fri Jan 21 14:53:58 2000
From: ckaiman at i3solutions.com (Charlie Kaiman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:30 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
Message-ID: <919BB1540F0ED31181F600500486B85D113F17@I3_DEVEXCH>

Could someone enlighten us -- or at least me -- on VML/SVG and what is *so*
revolutionary about them?  I seen some amazing things done with VRML, but
the VML demos (that I've seen) just don't compare?  Is there a difference?

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Brandt Dainow
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:17 AM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for 3D geometry and objects


Maybe - Microsoft have standardized on (and deployed in Office2000) VML.  So
now we have VML versus SVG.  SVG won't revolutionise anything while 90% of
application users are running VML.

I'm not qualified to take sides, but I don't think we need both.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

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From jesmith at kaon.com  Fri Jan 21 15:17:50 2000
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001201848150.31995-100000@eccnet.eccnet.co
 m>
References: <3887935C.B050F30F@free.fr>
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000121101903.01514f94@tiac.net>

>> I'm investigating syntaxes and formats for CAD (Computer Aided Design)
>> data: IGES, STEP, etc. Apparently no XML thing exists in this field.

You might be interested in our HyperActive technology (I mentioned this
earlier on this list, in case you are experiencing deja vu all over again):

   http://www.kaon.com/sdk

We do a lot more than 3D (it's really a programming language for creating
interactive multi-user applications that run in web browsers).  But we do
support both verbose, direct 3D scene description in the XML, as well as a
mixed XML/binary approach which crunches 3D data to the theoretical limits
of tightness.

For example, here's a snippet of a file which describes a square textured
floor:

<Material name='boards' ><Image url='floor.jpg' /></Material>
<Object3D name='floor' scale='150' x='100' z='-100' >
  <Mesh back='no' materials='boards' >
    <!-- y is the up/down dimension and defaults to 0... -->
    <V x='-1' z='1' u='0' v='7' />
    <V x='1' z='1' u='10' v='7' />
    <V x='1' z='-1' u='10' v='0' />
    <V x='-1' z='-1' u='0' v='0' />
    <F a='0' b='1' c='2' d='3' />
  </Mesh>
</Object3D>

And here's a snippet of that same file which describes a room (the geometry
is stored in a separate file in a binary format):

<!-- lots of materials omitted... -->
<Material name='window2' power='0' alpha='1'>
	<Color red='255' green='255' blue='255' />
	<Color red='12' green='12' blue='12' />
	<Color red='0' green='0' blue='0' />
	<Image url='WindowL.jpg'/>
</Material>
<Object3D name='walls' >
	<Mesh back='no' materials='south west east north window1 window2'
url='room__1.bin'>
		<VSet count='6249' xmin='0' xmax='223.587' xbits='12' zmin='-209.409'
zmax='17.0259' zbits='12' ymin='-0.967042' ymax='123.077' ybits='11'
umin='0' umax='0.998331' ubits='10' vmin='0.00541264' vmax='0.993679'
vbits='10'/>
		<FSet count='1502' base='0' bits='13' m='0'/>
		<FSet count='1809' base='0' bits='13' m='1'/>
		<FSet count='580' base='0' bits='13' m='2'/>
		<FSet count='326' base='0' bits='13' m='3'/>
		<FSet count='968' base='0' bits='13' m='4'/>
		<FSet count='944' base='0' bits='13' m='5'/>
	</Mesh>
</Object3D>

I won't bore everyone on this list with an explanation of that -- it's in
the manual in the SDK.  But I figured you'd get the idea.

We're in the process of adding some vector primitives to address the needs
of CAD users, as well.

Our XML formats are much more accessable than the XMLification of VRML, or
of SVG.  (And more stable, since those are both still evolving.)  You'll
find that as a result our plugin can be tiny (<350K) and very efficient.
However, we cannot do everything VRML can, and we won't come close to what
SVG can do.

Also, if after looking at our stuff, you find that it's 95% of what you
need, let me know and I'll see if we can get that last 5% in there before
we start shipping this thing big time.


-Joshua Smith


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From dave at userland.com  Fri Jan 21 15:15:02 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000601bf641b$e3ff09a0$dcd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <06f701bf6422$487c3af0$1918ccce@murphy>

So much heat!

Is it passion or fear?

Here's the truth, as best as I can express it.

There are lots of different webs.

WAP phones, Lynx, Geocities, Homestead, Linux, SlashDot, XML, eBay, WebTV,
AOL, News.Com, NYTimes.Com, Vignette, PornCity, PHP, Wiki, Zope, Mozilla,
Manila, and on and on.

Apples and oranges, but each one says the web is something different.

To the XML-DEV crowd, huddled around the security blanket of W3C, it's an
illusion. Some still think this is the center of the universe. It is not. It
is a little cul-de-sac of people who like to believe they are where it's
happening.

You're all getting so riled up because:

1. A random developer did something cool that works in MSIE5 but crashes
Netscape.

2. I pointed to it in a favorable way.

Pardon me, but in the big scheme of things, BFD.

Dave


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 15:36:50 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000121085807.03969af0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <000901bf6424$583790a0$dcd65c8b@p300>

This ain't power user stuff in Europe, it's teen stuff. Ericcson
product-test in Sweden almost entirely with 16-18 year olds.

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Ann Navarro
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 2:00 PM
>To: Tyler Baker
>Cc: xml-dev; kynn-hwg@idyllmtn.com
>Subject: Re: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>At 08:25 PM 1/20/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
>
>>As for surfing the internet on cell-phones and other
>hand-held devices? Give
>>me a break.
>>Maybe for checking a few sports scores or some stock quotes
>or a few text
>>messages, but
>>browsing web sites?
>
>Sure, it's done all the time. Today, quite often by power users and
>business elite, but it's growing. And it's not that hard.
>
>Take a look at http://www.kynn.com/quislet/ for a view of the
>web from a
>palm-style WinCE device. (Quislet being the machine name of
>that device)
>
>Ann
>---
>Just Released! - HTML BY Example
>Now shipping -  Mastering XML
>Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
>
>Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
>Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
>Director, HWG Online Education
http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 15:44:43 2000
From: steven.livingstone at scotent.co.uk (Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: W3C XML Signatures WD
Message-ID: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B56@SENMAIL3>

Anyone looking into the XML Signature WD from W3C??

Any opinions/comment etc... on it?? I'm looking through it just now.

cheers,
steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Fri Jan 21 15:46:42 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <06f701bf6422$487c3af0$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000121103813.14409A-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> So much heat!
> 
> Is it passion or fear?

It's fear that the willfully ignorant attitudes you express may in fact be
indicative of the beliefs of others.

> Here's the truth, as best as I can express it.
> 
> There are lots of different webs.

No. There is one Web.

> WAP phones, Lynx, Geocities, Homestead, Linux, SlashDot, XML, eBay, WebTV,
> AOL, News.Com, NYTimes.Com, Vignette, PornCity, PHP, Wiki, Zope, Mozilla,
> Manila, and on and on.

All of them use HTTP (a W3C standard), HTML (a W3C standard), MIME (an IETF
standard), ASCII, GIF, JPEG, URIs and URLs (IETF standard), etc. That makes
them all part of one Web. The World Wide Web.
 
> Apples and oranges, but each one says the web is something different.

No, each expresses their piece in different ways, using the technologies
that go to form the one Web. You're saying that there are many different
ideas of publishing based on the fact that there exists more than one book.
We finally have a way to share information among all the Net-connected
people of the world, thanks to some highly commodified standards, and your
reaction is "let's turn it back into a proprietary system, that's what's
happening anyway" and "let's exclude everybody!"

It's sad, really. Pathetic and sad. And, because you should know better,
it's raising people's ire.

Steve


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 15:48:31 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B53@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <000a01bf6426$14c43100$dcd65c8b@p300>

VGA, visual development tools, and Windows 3.0

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
>[mailto:steven.livingstone@scotent.co.uk]
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 2:44 PM
>To: Brandt Dainow; 'XML Dev'
>Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>
>
>So what happened to DOS GUI-like applications?
>
>Steven Livingstone
>Glasgow, Scotland.
>07771 957 280 or +447771957280
>
>Pro XML
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
>Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
>Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
>http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Brandt Dainow [SMTP:bd@internet-etc.com]
>> Sent:	21 January 2000 14:15
>> To:	'XML Dev'
>> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>>
>> What short memories this industry has.  I can remember programming
>> GUI-like
>> interfaces on MS DOS 1.0.  I didn't have a mouse, of course,
>but I had
>> dialog boxes, menus, etc.  It wasn't much fun manually
>drawing boxes 1
>> pixel
>> at a time, but we did it.  The platform at the time was 8088
>with 256K
>> RAM.
>>
>> Don't automatically reach for the technology when a little creative
>> thinking
>> and effort can do the job instead.  As my old woodwork
>teacher used to
>> say,
>> "It's a poor workman who blames his tools."
>>
>> Brandt Dainow
>> bd@internet-etc.com
>> Internet Etc Ltd
>> http://www.internet-etc.com
>>
>>
>> >In our case, the front-end clearly *is* critical - what they want
>> >(window-like in MS windows or X-Windows interfaces like they had in
>> >client-server) can only be done using the latest technologies.
>> ></quote>
>> >
>> >???
>> >
>> >cheers
>> >steven
>> >
>> >Steven Livingstone
>> >Glasgow, Scotland.
>> >07771 957 280 or +447771957280
>> >
>> >Pro XML
>> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
>> >Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
>> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
>> >Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
>> >http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505
>> >
>> >
>> >> -----Original Message-----
>> >> From:	Ann Navarro [SMTP:ann@webgeek.com]
>> >> Sent:	20 January 2000 16:19
>> >> To:	Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM; 'XML Dev'
>> >> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
>> >>
>> >> At 04:05 PM 1/20/00 +0000, Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM wrote:
>> >> >I think you're missing the point. Are you a content developer or
>> >> application
>> >> >developer? From your responses I'd say content (E-Commerce
>> >based sites
>> >> for
>> >> >me are in the main content based sites where you can click
>> >"buy-me" - not
>> >> >applications) where I agree your site should be built
>for multiple
>> >> browser
>> >> >types.
>> >> >
>> >> >I develop weblications. I don't develop for the latest
>> >innovations just
>> >> >because I want to be on the cutting edge. It is practical.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> No, I'm not missing the point.
>> >>
>> >> If you develop for the *convenience* of the developer,
>> >you're missing your
>> >> own point -- serving your customers.
>> >>
>> >> Ann
>> >> ---
>> >> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
>> >> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
>> >> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
>> >>
>> >> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
>> >> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
>> >> Director, HWG Online Education
>> >> http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
>> mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or
>CD-ROM/ISBN
>> 981-02-3594-1
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From ksh at dretec.com  Fri Jan 21 16:01:24 2000
From: ksh at dretec.com (Kieran O'Shea)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link
Message-ID: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC0C@jupiter.dretec.com>

Hi,
	I am trying to display an attribute from an XML document in a HREF
<A> tag
in XSL. The IE5 processor refuses to substitute in the variable value and
instead outputs the variable name
instead.

	(1)	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">

	The following didn't work either for the <ADD> template

	(2)	<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1				

	The following XSL command substitutes it in correctly.

	(3)	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>


Could anybody tell me if there is a way to substitute in the value of the
variable in example (1) and (2) please.



This full code is below.

XML

	<Add id="A1">
		Add A User
	</Add>
	<Delete id="D1">
		Delete A User
	</Delete>

XSL

	<xsl:template match="Add">
			<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1

	</xsl:template>
	<xsl:template match="Delete">		   
	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">
	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/></a>	





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From dave at userland.com  Fri Jan 21 16:00:34 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000901bf6424$583790a0$dcd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <071101bf6428$9c75f9b0$1918ccce@murphy>

> This ain't power user stuff in Europe, it's teen stuff. Ericcson
> product-test in Sweden almost entirely with 16-18 year olds.

I beg to differ.

Next week at the World Economic Forum in Davos the hall will be packed with
people with WAP phones.These aren't random European teenagers. Heads of
state, their staff, media leaders, CEOs, bankers.

Imagine editing a website from a laptop in the meeting center, and having a
dozen people in the audience tuned in to your channel. We're going to give
it a try. I'll have wireless access in Davos (Murphy willing) and we will
have a WAP-enabled site that I can edit from my seat in the audience. The
Davos people are really into the technology, but they're not techno-weenies
as some might believe.

It may be a big bust, but it may be pretty interesting! (I'm sure it will
be.)

Dave


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From martind at netfolder.com  Fri Jan 21 16:14:36 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <000301bf6418$a2ce8760$dcd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEGLEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Brandt

Brandt said:
Maybe - Microsoft have standardized on (and deployed in Office2000) VML.  So
now we have VML versus SVG.  SVG won't revolutionise anything while 90% of
application users are running VML.

I'm not qualified to take sides, but I don't think we need both.

Didier replies:
So what is happening is that Microsoft supports VML in office and that Adobe
will support SVG is most of their products. Moreover, they'll provide a free
renderer (which is already quite fast even if it is an alpha version). The
actual 2 D drawing capabilities of SVG are far more superior to VML. There
will be an Adobe plug-in for illustrator that will generate SVG files. This
plug-in is also in alpha tests. A very useful feature of the Adobe browser
add-on is that you can manipulate the SVG elements with a DOM, therefore you
can have interactivity in addition to rendition. This is not the case with
VML which is quite passive.

Stay tune for their beta release due, I guess for this summer. or apply for
their early testing program and become an alpha tester. I can tell you the
add-on is funny to play with. For instance, I have a map SVG file and I can
add or suppress map information layers with check boxes. I could do that
because of the SVG DOM. Because of the availability of a _fast_ and _free_
SVG renderer, the interest to provide drawings in this format may increase.
By the way, the Adobe browser add-on works with both Mozilla (or Netscape)
browser and IE. VML works only in IE. I made comparisons with actual Java
applet based SVG renderers and I got a ratio of about 2 to 1 and often even
more difference in speed with the Adobe plug-in. Also, I created forms
created from XML and transformed into SVG instead of HTML. And believe me,
the results are surprising, you can now render nearly as seen on the
original paper form. Also, this is not the case with the actual HTML forms.
Same thing for part catalogs, I could create an highly interactive parts
catalog using SVG and the DOM. Again, the result is a lot superior to
WebCGM. Sorry, I can show my SVG stuff since you need the Adobe browser
add-on, only if you are near New-York, I'll show that at the WebNewYork
conference at the end of the month (ref: http://www.webfm.com)

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From ann at webgeek.com  Fri Jan 21 16:26:41 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser types
Message-ID: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29>

On the W3C WAI Interest Group mailing list,  Charles McCathieNevile
<charles@w3.org>, made the following observation: 

"...I am currently sitting in an ordinary Internet cafe in Seattle,
where half the terminals are text-only VT100 terminals and half are
multimedia-capable Windows 95 or Macintosh G3 machines. I am about to be
kicked off my line-mode terminal (there is a 60-minute limit when there are
people waiting for them) and forced onto a multimedia terminal. This is not
because there are people with disabilities, just through popular demand. It
seems that the industry perception that accessibility is only for a very
small group is just plain wrong, at least in this random (if statistically
insignificant) sample...."

While the discussion was about disabilities, it also directly applies to
computers and their equipment. 

Ann


---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From colin at durbanet.co.za  Fri Jan 21 16:45:52 2000
From: colin at durbanet.co.za (Colin Muller)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675254@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38888CFC.F96ADE15@durbanet.co.za>

If I may stray off-topic for a second, I'd like to second the view that
a Good Idea supported by Running Code is probably the most workable
alternative to the W3C standards slowgress; it's undoubtedly more
effective than mailing list flame wars. But I digress, so back to the
main point of this thread ...

http://www.TheCounter.com/stats/1999/December/browser.html

In brief: IE5.x 41%, IE4.x 36%, NS4.x 17%, everything else 1% or less.
Based on about 497 million unique visitors (unique over what time period
is not specified) over the month of December. Sites involved are mainly
general-interest and not big commercial ones.

All of which suggests to me that XML is best kept server side in open
environments for a good while yet.

Of course, 1% is enough people to earn you a gold record.

Colin Muller

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
> Brandt Dainow wrote,
> > SUMMARY:
> > IE 5= 46.6%
> > IE 4= 23.2%
> > NS 4= 25.8%
> > NS 3= 01.5%
> > REST= 02.9%
> 
> I still have a gut feeling that 46.6% is unrepresentatively
> high.

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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 17:20:36 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEGLEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <000c01bf6432$f576a8c0$dcd65c8b@p300>

I forgot to mention that Macromedia were part of the VML proposal, so I
guess we'll see VML in their products too.  I wonder what this'll mean for
Shockwave & Flash.  Irrespective of performance or quality, I  don't see how
SVG stands a chance against an MS/Macromedia alliance, they must control
something like 80-90% of all the authoring tools.  I guess we can also
expect HP to use VML in their printers.
Truetype was a combined HP/MS development as a response to Adobe's
postscript.  Are we going to see history repeat itself?

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Didier PH Martin [mailto:martind@netfolder.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:16 AM
>To: Brandt Dainow; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: XML for 3D geometry and objects
>
>
>Hi Brandt
>
>Brandt said:
>Maybe - Microsoft have standardized on (and deployed in
>Office2000) VML.  So
>now we have VML versus SVG.  SVG won't revolutionise anything
>while 90% of
>application users are running VML.
>
>I'm not qualified to take sides, but I don't think we need both.
>
>Didier replies:
>So what is happening is that Microsoft supports VML in office
>and that Adobe
>will support SVG is most of their products. Moreover, they'll
>provide a free
>renderer (which is already quite fast even if it is an alpha
>version). The
>actual 2 D drawing capabilities of SVG are far more superior
>to VML. There
>will be an Adobe plug-in for illustrator that will generate
>SVG files. This
>plug-in is also in alpha tests. A very useful feature of the
>Adobe browser
>add-on is that you can manipulate the SVG elements with a DOM,
>therefore you
>can have interactivity in addition to rendition. This is not
>the case with
>VML which is quite passive.
>
>Stay tune for their beta release due, I guess for this summer.
>or apply for
>their early testing program and become an alpha tester. I can
>tell you the
>add-on is funny to play with. For instance, I have a map SVG
>file and I can
>add or suppress map information layers with check boxes. I
>could do that
>because of the SVG DOM. Because of the availability of a
>_fast_ and _free_
>SVG renderer, the interest to provide drawings in this format
>may increase.
>By the way, the Adobe browser add-on works with both Mozilla
>(or Netscape)
>browser and IE. VML works only in IE. I made comparisons with
>actual Java
>applet based SVG renderers and I got a ratio of about 2 to 1
>and often even
>more difference in speed with the Adobe plug-in. Also, I created forms
>created from XML and transformed into SVG instead of HTML. And
>believe me,
>the results are surprising, you can now render nearly as seen on the
>original paper form. Also, this is not the case with the
>actual HTML forms.
>Same thing for part catalogs, I could create an highly
>interactive parts
>catalog using SVG and the DOM. Again, the result is a lot superior to
>WebCGM. Sorry, I can show my SVG stuff since you need the Adobe browser
>add-on, only if you are near New-York, I'll show that at the WebNewYork
>conference at the end of the month (ref: http://www.webfm.com)
>
>Cheers
>Didier PH Martin
>----------------------------------------------
>Email: martind@netfolder.com
>Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
>Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
>Products: http://www.netfolder.com
>
>


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From bd at internet-etc.com  Fri Jan 21 17:20:39 2000
From: bd at internet-etc.com (Brandt Dainow)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link
In-Reply-To: <D3F423DC3EA7D31185F6009027DCD215FC0C@jupiter.dretec.com>
Message-ID: <000d01bf6432$f8486660$dcd65c8b@p300>

You're putting XSL syntax inside HTML.  HTML has no XSL functionality.  What
you want to do is make HTMl part of your XSL output.  Try this something
like this
<template match = "someElement">
	<a href=http://www.bancal.com/servlet/<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>>
</template>

Thus you are wrapping the XSL values with HTML at output level


Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Kieran O'Shea
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:02 PM
>To: 'XML-L@listserv.heanet.ie'; 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
>Subject: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link
>
>
>Hi,
>	I am trying to display an attribute from an XML
>document in a HREF
><A> tag
>in XSL. The IE5 processor refuses to substitute in the
>variable value and
>instead outputs the variable name
>instead.
>
>	(1)	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">
>
>	The following didn't work either for the <ADD> template
>
>	(2)	<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1
>
>	The following XSL command substitutes it in correctly.
>
>	(3)	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>
>
>
>Could anybody tell me if there is a way to substitute in the
>value of the
>variable in example (1) and (2) please.
>
>
>
>This full code is below.
>
>XML
>
>	<Add id="A1">
>		Add A User
>	</Add>
>	<Delete id="D1">
>		Delete A User
>	</Delete>
>
>XSL
>
>	<xsl:template match="Add">
>			<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1
>
>	</xsl:template>
>	<xsl:template match="Delete">
>	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">
>	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/></a>
>
>
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 21 17:28:24 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: My browser is longer than your browser
Message-ID: <14472.38628.762461.885216@localhost.localdomain>

Really, guys and girls -- it was fun, but let's stop now.  You're all
right, everyone wins, and shut up or I'll ask the US DOJ to ban
all browsers except Lynx.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan 21 17:35:29 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000121092542.0151a550@pop.intergate.ca>

At 02:21 PM 1/21/00 -0000, Brandt Dainow wrote:
>VML is NOT a proprietary MS system.  It is a W3C submission from Microsoft,
>HP, and Visio.  Check out http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-VML

It's a proprietary MS system.  Anybody can submit anything to the W3C, and
lots do.  For a while back there in '97/'98, there were a lot of dueling-
submissions going on, each one covered excitedly by C|Net and PCWeek;
thankfully this seems to have mostly died off now. -Tim

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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 21 17:40:05 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA422@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  I forgot to mention that Macromedia were part of the VML 
:  proposal, so I
:  guess we'll see VML in their products too.  I wonder what 
:  this'll mean for
:  Shockwave & Flash.  

Certain death I hope. Which changes the 80/90% figure greatly. All the
companies involved in VML are also involved in authoring the SVG drafts. 3
of the 9 VML authors are also authoring SVG, if my count is correct. Sounds
like spread betting. Can you animate in VML?

Regards,

Bill de hOra 

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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Fri Jan 21 17:45:14 2000
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser types
References: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <38889CEA.8F94AA64@finetuning.com>

just for the record, if I'm not mistaken, there is nothing ordinary
about that particular internet cafe charles was in :-) 

That place is NOTHING like most generic internet cafes i have been to
from CA to NY (only in us, yes) but the slowest machine in those babies
was an imac :-)

lisa

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> On the W3C WAI Interest Group mailing list,  Charles McCathieNevile
> <charles@w3.org>, made the following observation:
> 
> "...I am currently sitting in an ordinary Internet cafe in Seattle,
> where half the terminals are text-only VT100 terminals and half are
> multimedia-capable Windows 95 or Macintosh G3 machines. I am about to be
> kicked off my line-mode terminal (there is a 60-minute limit when there are
> people waiting for them) and forced onto a multimedia terminal. This is not
> because there are people with disabilities, just through popular demand. It
> seems that the industry perception that accessibility is only for a very
> small group is just plain wrong, at least in this random (if statistically
> insignificant) sample...."
> 
> While the discussion was about disabilities, it also directly applies to
> computers and their equipment.
> 
> Ann
> 
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
> 
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From ann at webgeek.com  Fri Jan 21 17:48:46 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser types
In-Reply-To: <38889CEA.8F94AA64@finetuning.com>
References: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000121124947.04801190@216.65.70.29>

At 09:52 AM 1/21/00 -0800, Lisa Rein wrote:

> but the slowest machine in those babies
>was an imac :-)

The point wasn't that there are "slow" machines in there, but that the
PREFERENCE was to the vt100 terminals, and not the whiz-bang machines. 

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From lisarein at finetuning.com  Fri Jan 21 17:58:30 2000
From: lisarein at finetuning.com (Lisa Rein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser types
References: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000121124947.04801190@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <3888A010.218B30AA@finetuning.com>

my point was in most internet cafes, there are no vt100 terminals.
and
that in this particular cafe, the reason why the vt100 terminals are
more popular is because they are better located in the cafe - up on this
cool platform thing and one part is by a window and you can sit with a
friend across from you while you're online. (some of the other units
aren't as socially located).

hence when a decision is made as to what unit to get one's email at the
"internet cafe", in seattle, there are many other considerations :-)

lisa

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> At 09:52 AM 1/21/00 -0800, Lisa Rein wrote:
> 
> > but the slowest machine in those babies
> >was an imac :-)
> 
> The point wasn't that there are "slow" machines in there, but that the
> PREFERENCE was to the vt100 terminals, and not the whiz-bang machines.
> 
> Ann
> ---
> Just Released! - HTML BY Example
> Now shipping -  Mastering XML
> Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials
> 
> Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
> Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
> Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes

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From Daniel.Veillard at w3.org  Fri Jan 21 18:24:17 2000
From: Daniel.Veillard at w3.org (Daniel Veillard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: My browser is longer than your browser
In-Reply-To: <14472.38628.762461.885216@localhost.localdomain>
References: <14472.38628.762461.885216@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <20000121132412.C32718@w3.org>

On Fri, Jan 21, 2000 at 12:27:00PM -0500, David Megginson wrote:
> Really, guys and girls -- it was fun, but let's stop now.  You're all
> right, everyone wins, and shut up or I'll ask the US DOJ to ban
> all browsers except Lynx.

 May I also suggest changing at least the mails titles for this
thread :-)

Daniel

-- 
Daniel.Veillard@w3.org | W3C, INRIA Rhone-Alpes  | Today's Bookmarks :
Tel : +33 476 615 257  | 655, avenue de l'Europe | Linux XML libxml WWW
Fax : +33 476 615 207  | 38330 Montbonnot FRANCE | Gnome rpm2html rpmfind
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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Fri Jan 21 18:36:03 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Applet LotusXSL or Xalan with string input
Message-ID: <C125686D.0063410C.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>



Hello

The transformToHtml() methods of the XSLTProcessorApplet Applet accepts only URL to specify the XML data & the XSLT.

Has somebody done a similar Applet, also wraping the transform functionality, but accepting strings ?

Thanks
Jean-Marc



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From dforman at turnstone.com  Fri Jan 21 18:46:05 2000
From: dforman at turnstone.com (Doug Forman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML to represent Musical Notation
Message-ID: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB5480633@mail.turnstone.com>

Anyone interested in, or know of efforts to develop a standard music
notation with an XML schema.
 
Converting MIDI files to XML should be easy.
 
For the future XML could be a good way to eventual replace MIDI, and the
limitations and compromises built into MIDI in order for it to work with
early 1980's embedded technologies.
 
Thanks,
Doug Forman

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From debenedetti at e-tree.com  Fri Jan 21 19:05:50 2000
From: debenedetti at e-tree.com (Stefano Debenedetti)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: R: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser types
References: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000121124947.04801190@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <03db01bf643b$15366e40$1a390497@ETREE>

> > but the slowest machine in those babies
> >was an imac :-)
>
> The point wasn't that there are "slow" machines in there, but that the
> PREFERENCE was to the vt100 terminals, and not the whiz-bang machines.
>
> Ann

I beg your pardon but I still don't understand what the point was....:-o
Could you please explain me what Mr. Charles McCathieNevile meant about
industry perception on accessibility?

Thanks in advance

stefano debenedetti
web developer
debenedetti@e-tree.com




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From aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com  Fri Jan 21 19:06:42 2000
From: aleksi.niemela at cinnober.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Aleksi_Niemel=E4?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link
Message-ID: <E536C8EE2A1FD31195370008C79FFA1F09B35E@world.cinnober.com>

<template match = "someElement">
	<a href=http://www.bancal.com/servlet/<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>>
</template>

I think this shouldn't work, since it doesn't look like XML:
- plain <a>-element (without closing tag or />-ending)
- attributes must to have ' or "
- can't nest multiple elements inside element declaration

Then returning original question, few comments:

>	<xsl:template match="Add">
>			<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1
>
>	</xsl:template>

Should work! I think this is exactly what our XSLT eats. But it didn't eat
it one month ago. The name of the software we are using is beyond me, but I
have a hunch it could be part of the IBM's product family.

Anyway, there are ways to go around (first is much better IMHO):

<xsl:template match="Add">
    <a>
        <xsl:attribute name="href">
            <xsl:value-of select="@id"/>
        </xsl:attribute>
    </a> Tag 1
</xsl:template>

<xsl:template match="Add">
    <![CDATA[<a href="#]]><xsl:value-of select="@id"/><![CDATA[/>]]> Tag 1
</xsl:template>

One last note: if you're really talking about some @-variables, I don't know
anything at all about them. But if you meant attribute id as in your example
XML, then these should work. 

Be very careful of right terms - variables *have* specific meaning in
context of XSL specification.

    - Aleksi


-----Original Message-----
From: Brandt Dainow [mailto:bd@internet-etc.com]
Sent: den 21 januari 2000 18:14
To: 'Kieran O'Shea'; XML-L@listserv.heanet.ie; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link


You're putting XSL syntax inside HTML.  HTML has no XSL functionality.  What
you want to do is make HTMl part of your XSL output.  Try this something
like this
<template match = "someElement">
	<a href=http://www.bancal.com/servlet/<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>>
</template>

Thus you are wrapping the XSL values with HTML at output level


Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On
>Behalf Of
>Kieran O'Shea
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:02 PM
>To: 'XML-L@listserv.heanet.ie'; 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
>Subject: Problem with substituting XSL @ variable into a hyper link
>
>
>Hi,
>	I am trying to display an attribute from an XML
>document in a HREF
><A> tag
>in XSL. The IE5 processor refuses to substitute in the
>variable value and
>instead outputs the variable name
>instead.
>
>	(1)	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">
>
>	The following didn't work either for the <ADD> template
>
>	(2)	<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1
>
>	The following XSL command substitutes it in correctly.
>
>	(3)	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/>
>
>
>Could anybody tell me if there is a way to substitute in the
>value of the
>variable in example (1) and (2) please.
>
>
>
>This full code is below.
>
>XML
>
>	<Add id="A1">
>		Add A User
>	</Add>
>	<Delete id="D1">
>		Delete A User
>	</Delete>
>
>XSL
>
>	<xsl:template match="Add">
>			<a href="#{@id}"/> Tag 1
>
>	</xsl:template>
>	<xsl:template match="Delete">
>	<a href="http://www.bancal.com/servlet/{@id}">
>	<xsl:value-of select="@id"/></a>
>
>
>
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post,
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From david-b at pacbell.net  Fri Jan 21 19:30:11 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: XML Certificates
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DC9B0D@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <3888B3B0.EFD154F1@pacbell.net>

"Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM" wrote:
> 
> Anybody doing much work with XML Certificates for security??

I'd certainly hope not!

There are roughly two standards that matter today:

	- X.509, as issued by Verisign (99% worldwide monopoly
	  in the non-corporate space, if the Thawte acquisition
	  goes through).  Binary, baroque syntax, overfeatured.

	- OpenPGP, which doesn't have a "BigBrother" hook (anyone
	  can cut a cert, you don't punt the "do I trust XXX"
	  issue by trusting some Big Brother).  Both ASCII and
	  binary formats exist; simpler.

Public Key Infrastructure is a big enough problem that IMHO it's
really not worth tweaking low level standards.  The problems that
need solving are at the level of global infrastructure deployment,
trustability, and (especially) usability.  XML can't help there.

For OpenPGP info/source/... I'd suggest http://www.gnupg.org for
info.  It interoperates with PGP 5.x and later.

What's lacking is commercial support for OpenPGP; licensing deals
with Verisign have ensured that X.509 availability skyrocketed
despite its problems.  Browsers have X.509 for SSL support (and
S/MIME), few as yet (even Mozilla) support OpenPGP.

- Dave

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From ann at webgeek.com  Fri Jan 21 19:30:44 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:31 2004
Subject: R: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser
  types
In-Reply-To: <03db01bf643b$15366e40$1a390497@ETREE>
References: <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000121124947.04801190@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000121142855.068ff220@216.65.70.29>

At 07:12 PM 1/21/00 +0100, Stefano Debenedetti wrote:

>I beg your pardon but I still don't understand what the point was....:-o
>Could you please explain me what Mr. Charles McCathieNevile meant about
>industry perception on accessibility?

There is a perception in some portions of the industry, as displayed on
this list, that only people with significant deficits of one form or
another -- those that are too 'poor' to upgrade a system, are disabled, or
confined to university dumb terminals, or whatever -- that only those
people are the ones that don't use the latest and greatest systems. 

Anecdotal evidence suggests that the not only DO people outside of those
demographics use less than the latest system/browser, but that many do it
by choice (the highly debatable "that's just because vt100 terminals are
next to the window" or not). 

Bottom line point: assumptions about users needs/desires based on the
developer or industry's own habits is almost always a bad viewpoint.

Ann
---
Just Released! - HTML BY Example
Now shipping -  Mastering XML 
Also in print:  Effective Web Design: Master the Essentials

Founder, WebGeek Communications            http://www.webgeek.com
Vice President-Finance, HTML Writers Guild http://www.hwg.org
Director, HWG Online Education             http://www.hwg.org/services/classes





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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Fri Jan 21 20:09:56 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: XML to represent Musical Notation 
In-Reply-To: Message from Doug Forman <dforman@turnstone.com> 
   of "Fri, 21 Jan 2000 10:45:58 PST." <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB5480633@mail.turnstone.com> 
Message-ID: <200001212013.PAA09539@trinity.viaduct.com>


> Anyone interested in, or know of efforts to develop a standard music
> notation with an XML schema.

I still haven't heard about a schema for Music notation, but there are
several DTDs around like MuML and MusicML.

One thing you might be interested to look at is SMDL (SGML). It is
quite complete and though it was mainly designed for 
music publishing it can be used for other purposes (I did the SGML
support of the maconDO sequencer using it). 

I don't have the pointers now (that was a long time ago;)), but if you
want the SMDL spec, mail me. I must have it... somewhere...

Fabio



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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Fri Jan 21 20:37:17 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?)
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>
Message-ID: <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Nils Klarlund" <klarlund@research.att.com>
To: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Cc: "klarlund" <klarlund@research.att.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2000 12:22 PM
Subject: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?


> A so-called "last call" working draft has been issued by the W3C for XML
> information set.

> Although the document is cleanly written, it introduces some very
cumbersome
> language,
> which will almost guarantee that future XML specifications will become
> unnecessarily hard to read (just look at the current XML Schema document,
> part 1).
>
> Would it not be in the interest of the XML community to encourage the
> authors use
> language that mortals understand (nodes, trees, etc)? I don't believe the
> Information Set in its current formulation should be accepted.  Am I alone
> in this belief

The need for better writing in W3C specs was discussed at a recent W3C WG
meeting I attended.  That particular group generally agreed that the specs
need to be written more clearly, and the plan (I don't know if anything came
of it) was to lobby our W3C Advisory Committee representatives to push the
W3C to devote more of its admittedly scarce resources to hiring staff
technical writers, or getting members to contribute the time of technical
writers as well as XML specialists to the activities of the working groups
they participate on.

This posting (and a diatribe against the Schema draft that I saw today)
reminded me to bring this issue to my AC Rep's attention. Can anyone suggest
other concrete proposals for improving the situation?


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From tagore at internexus.net  Fri Jan 21 21:13:59 2000
From: tagore at internexus.net (Tagore Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA422@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.21.0001211409150.31808-100000@micro.internexus.net>



On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Bill dehOra wrote:

> 
> :  I forgot to mention that Macromedia were part of the VML 
> :  proposal, so I
> :  guess we'll see VML in their products too.  I wonder what 
> :  this'll mean for
> :  Shockwave & Flash.  
> 
> Certain death I hope. Which changes the 80/90% figure greatly. All the
> companies involved in VML are also involved in authoring the SVG drafts. 3
> of the 9 VML authors are also authoring SVG, if my count is correct. Sounds
> like spread betting. Can you animate in VML?
> 

   This week one of my clients pointed me at www.cartier.com and told me
he wanted a site like that. I understand why he likes the site it's Cool
with a capital C. It's also very poorly designed IMHO, and while part of
this is the fault of the designer, some of it is caused by inherent
problems with Flash. Since the site is designed as one big movie the back
button on your browser is broken, you can't bookmark within the site, and
you can't link to part of the site. As well, no search engine can index
it.

   It seems like having a markup based vector language could solve a lot
of these problems; for that matter making Flash a HyTime application would
be a good start. But there are some subtle but very important problems
that don't go away easily.

   What are the advantages of using xml (there had better be some,
because there are some serious drawbacks in terms of complexity). Correct
me if I'm wrong but it seems to me that some of the big ones are:

1. xml can become a lingua france for defining the syntax of languages
exchanged across the internet, allowing for a (hopefully high) degree of
interoperability

2. Because xml allows you to embed a lot of information about the
structure of a document it is easier to define the semantics of specific
xml applications in a way that is recognizable by computers. This is only
possible because of a separation of presentation and content.

3. given 1 and 2 above, the web (really the tools that present, index,
etc. the web) can become much smarter. The standard example seems to be
"find me the best price out there on a pair of blue jeans".

   OK, so this is basic stuff- we all know this. But the question is how
can you define a Flash-like mechanism that preserves these advantages. An
example- I want to build a site as one big animated vector movie. (Or for
that matter I want my entire site to be one big navigable piece of
streaming video, which presents even worse difficulties). You can tell me
it's a bad idea until you're blue in the face, but if I'm like most of my
clients it's not going to do any good. 

   So, no problem here, right- since this is xml based, we can link to
specific frames in my movie. And all that cool scalable vector text will
be encoded as unicode, right? We can use nested elements or attributes to
encode both the semantics and the presentation of the visual elements. We
could use a separate document to describe the presentation of this
document. This is difficult, but not impossible. But of course, this all
depends on the makers of authoring tools making good decisions as
well. Hmm.. Adobe GoLive... every other "WYSIWIG" html authoring
program... pardon me if I'm not so hopeful. But still it seems that we
could define a scalable vector language in a way that preserved the
advantages of xml. Particularly important would be addressing- I want an
element <product>Blue Jeans</product> in my xml document but I also want
to be able to animate the letters independently. Again HyTime has some
useful things to say about this.

   But SVG doesn't even make an attempt to do this. I haven't read the
whole draft, but it's pretty clear that there are going to be real
problems indexing content. Mainly because my previous example is now
<text>Blue Jeans</text> (some attributes snipped). And if I want to put
the two words on different lines it looks to me like I'm going to have to
do <text>Blue</text> <text>Jeans</text>. And if I want to animate each
letter separately?

   Of course I could use XSLT and maybe some other processing to generate
my SVG. Do you think it likely that that's how authoring programs are
going to work? I'm pretty sure that if SVG becomes mainstream it's going
to be created in WYSIWIG authoring tools, and the chances that
<text>Blue</text> and <text>Jeans</text> are even going to wind up near
each other is pretty slim. 

   OK, so for the advantages of xml to really be seen you need good
authoring practices, and there are probably ways around some of these
problems- maybe using RDF and content negotiation. But I still have  
qualms about it.

   I'm sorry if this is too off-topic. I think that these issues are going
to be very important to the development of xml and the web, and in more
contexts than just this one. 

						Tagore Smith

    

 




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From donpark at docuverse.com  Fri Jan 21 21:20:11 2000
From: donpark at docuverse.com (Don Park)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?)
In-Reply-To: <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <000001bf6455$484f0840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>

>This posting (and a diatribe against the Schema draft that I saw today)
>reminded me to bring this issue to my AC Rep's attention. Can
>anyone suggest other concrete proposals for improving the situation?

Sure.  How about releasing a more interactive form of the spec that
allows the reader to:

  1. rate individual paragraph for clarity
  2. post annotations

If W3C can't afford do this themselves, we can just use Third Voice
or something like it for this.  If Third Voice's platform restrictions
is a problem, we can just leave W3C documents as they are and create a
value-added version at at different site that allows annotation and
rating.

We spend most of our time talking about new technologies and many of us
build'em but, goddammit, lets use some!

Best,

Don Park    -   mailto:donpark@docuverse.com
Docuverse   -   http://www.docuverse.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Fri Jan 21 22:31:37 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
In-Reply-To: <000c01bf6432$f576a8c0$dcd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEHIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Brandt,

Brandt said:
 forgot to mention that Macromedia were part of the VML proposal, so I
guess we'll see VML in their products too.  I wonder what this'll mean for
Shockwave & Flash.  Irrespective of performance or quality, I  don't see how
SVG stands a chance against an MS/Macromedia alliance, they must control
something like 80-90% of all the authoring tools.  I guess we can also
expect HP to use VML in their printers.
Truetype was a combined HP/MS development as a response to Adobe's
postscript.  Are we going to see history repeat itself?

Didier replies:
Don't expect that, see my post about the Adobe SVG plug-in. Adobe do not
invest in VML but in SVG.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
Brandt Dainow
Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 12:05 PM
To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: XML for 3D geometry and objects


I

Brandt Dainow
bd@internet-etc.com
Internet Etc Ltd
http://www.internet-etc.com

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Didier PH Martin [mailto:martind@netfolder.com]
>Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 4:16 AM
>To: Brandt Dainow; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: RE: XML for 3D geometry and objects
>
>
>Hi Brandt
>
>Brandt said:
>Maybe - Microsoft have standardized on (and deployed in
>Office2000) VML.  So
>now we have VML versus SVG.  SVG won't revolutionise anything
>while 90% of
>application users are running VML.
>
>I'm not qualified to take sides, but I don't think we need both.
>
>Didier replies:
>So what is happening is that Microsoft supports VML in office
>and that Adobe
>will support SVG is most of their products. Moreover, they'll
>provide a free
>renderer (which is already quite fast even if it is an alpha
>version). The
>actual 2 D drawing capabilities of SVG are far more superior
>to VML. There
>will be an Adobe plug-in for illustrator that will generate
>SVG files. This
>plug-in is also in alpha tests. A very useful feature of the
>Adobe browser
>add-on is that you can manipulate the SVG elements with a DOM,
>therefore you
>can have interactivity in addition to rendition. This is not
>the case with
>VML which is quite passive.
>
>Stay tune for their beta release due, I guess for this summer.
>or apply for
>their early testing program and become an alpha tester. I can
>tell you the
>add-on is funny to play with. For instance, I have a map SVG
>file and I can
>add or suppress map information layers with check boxes. I
>could do that
>because of the SVG DOM. Because of the availability of a
>_fast_ and _free_
>SVG renderer, the interest to provide drawings in this format
>may increase.
>By the way, the Adobe browser add-on works with both Mozilla
>(or Netscape)
>browser and IE. VML works only in IE. I made comparisons with
>actual Java
>applet based SVG renderers and I got a ratio of about 2 to 1
>and often even
>more difference in speed with the Adobe plug-in. Also, I created forms
>created from XML and transformed into SVG instead of HTML. And
>believe me,
>the results are surprising, you can now render nearly as seen on the
>original paper form. Also, this is not the case with the
>actual HTML forms.
>Same thing for part catalogs, I could create an highly
>interactive parts
>catalog using SVG and the DOM. Again, the result is a lot superior to
>WebCGM. Sorry, I can show my SVG stuff since you need the Adobe browser
>add-on, only if you are near New-York, I'll show that at the WebNewYork
>conference at the end of the month (ref: http://www.webfm.com)
>
>Cheers
>Didier PH Martin
>----------------------------------------------
>Email: martind@netfolder.com
>Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
>Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
>Products: http://www.netfolder.com
>
>


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Fri Jan 21 22:48:32 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: R: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser
  types
In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000121142855.068ff220@216.65.70.29>
References: <03db01bf643b$15366e40$1a390497@ETREE>
 <4.1.20000121112549.067e6d50@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000121124947.04801190@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000121130606.009daf00@shell16.ba.best.com>

Although I'm an advocate for accessibility in ADA terms, since the language 
of "must" is the only one some people understand and common decency is 
sometimes easier to grasp than failure of understanding, accessibility 
means much more than that, as Ann correctly points out. It is, in fact, the 
key to new services for everyone as well as full coverage of existing 
users, many of whom are exactly the power users with influence and money 
that vendors desire to reach and who prefer Unix in almost any flavor to 
Windows (as any sensible person would), or don't want to use a mouse (as 
anyone with concern for body mechanics would be), or any of a myriad of 
very good reasons not to use the "standard" MSIE on Intel flavor of the month.

Just anecdotally, I prefer Opera for several reasons, and have a boatload 
of the latest platforms and browsers on my desktop (or nearby) to choose from.

At Friday 1/21/00 02:32 PM -0500, Ann Navarro wrote:
>There is a perception in some portions of the industry, as displayed on
>this list, that only people with significant deficits of one form or
>another -- those that are too 'poor' to upgrade a system, are disabled, or
>confined to university dumb terminals, or whatever -- that only those
>people are the ones that don't use the latest and greatest systems.
>
>Anecdotal evidence suggests that the not only DO people outside of those
>demographics use less than the latest system/browser, but that many do it
>by choice (the highly debatable "that's just because vt100 terminals are
>next to the window" or not).
>
>Bottom line point: assumptions about users needs/desires based on the
>developer or industry's own habits is almost always a bad viewpoint.


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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Fri Jan 21 23:45:48 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: R: interesting data point on preferred computers/browser  types
In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000121130606.009daf00@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001211535130.19462-100000@netcom5.netcom.com>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Lee Anne Phillips wrote:

> Although I'm an advocate for accessibility in ADA terms, since the language 
> of "must" is the only one some people understand and common decency is 
> sometimes easier to grasp than failure of understanding, accessibility 
> means much more than that, as Ann correctly points out. It is, in fact, the 
> key to new services for everyone as well as full coverage of existing 

Yes.  When you make overly specific assumptions about user agents and
specific renderings, you inhibit potential novel uses of your content (or
even well-established uses; it doesn't exactly help for your site to come
up at the top of an AltaVista search if the description shown is "This
site uses advanced features which are not supported by your browser,
Scooter.  Please download Netscape Navigator 4.7 or Microsoft Internet
Explorer 5.1 to experience this site properly").  In particular, the
fast-growing fields of content syndication and aggregation *demand* a
separation between content and specific rendering details.

> users, many of whom are exactly the power users with influence and money 
> that vendors desire to reach and who prefer Unix in almost any flavor to 
> Windows (as any sensible person would), or don't want to use a mouse (as 
> anyone with concern for body mechanics would be), or any of a myriad of 
> very good reasons not to use the "standard" MSIE on Intel flavor of the month.

An example we always used on comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html was the
corporate executive who needs to access a site from his laptop in a hotel
room.


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 22 02:31:55 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <38888CFC.F96ADE15@durbanet.co.za>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEHLEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Colin,

Colin said:

http://www.TheCounter.com/stats/1999/December/browser.html

In brief: IE5.x 41%, IE4.x 36%, NS4.x 17%, everything else 1% or less.
Based on about 497 million unique visitors (unique over what time period
is not specified) over the month of December. Sites involved are mainly
general-interest and not big commercial ones.

All of which suggests to me that XML is best kept server side in open
environments for a good while yet.

Of course, 1% is enough people to earn you a gold record.

Didier replies:
Thanks a lot Colin, Up to now, these numbers are statistically more
representative. Off course, a better and bigger sample would lead to a
better level of confidence but at least this gives an idea.

If we say that the margin of error of this sample is 10% , it means that at
least 31% of the browsers in the population sampled has an XML browser, not
bad. So, if we make the right inferences:

if you have an XML server able to recognize the user agent and adapt to it
by:
a) creating an HTML document if the user agent is not an XML browser
b) send an XML document and its related style sheet if the user agent is IE5

Then, it means (including our margin for error) that in 31% of the cases you
will be able to send an XML document instead of an HTML document. it roughly
means 1/3 of the users. Not bad. Can we make now the inference that at the
end of the year about 50% will be XML enabled? if that is the case, then in
one case out of two, your intelligent XML server will send the XML document
to be processed and rendered client side instead of server side.

Not so bad in fact and yes, maybe year 2001 (or at least at the end of year
2001) we will see the XML monolith :-)


PS: Be reassured David, I am not playing the game of my browser is
bigger.... I am trying to figure out if it make sense to build an XML site
instead of an HTML site. I see from the number that yes it does. If at least
one third of the browsers can process and render server side the XML
document, then this is not so bad and encouraging. Anyway, I'll give it a
try a see if my own stats reflect the stats above.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com



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From tyler at infinet.com  Sat Jan 22 02:48:40 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <000101bf62fd$0c396840$d1940e18@c1033339-a.smateo1.sfba.home.com>
	 <38874E71.2C00@hiwaay.net>
	 <4.2.0.58.20000120145030.00b42900@shell16.ba.best.com> <4.1.20000121085807.03969af0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <38891A0E.9ACE6545@infinet.com>

Ann Navarro wrote:

> At 08:25 PM 1/20/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> >As for surfing the internet on cell-phones and other hand-held devices? Give
> >me a break.
> >Maybe for checking a few sports scores or some stock quotes or a few text
> >messages, but
> >browsing web sites?
>
> Sure, it's done all the time. Today, quite often by power users and
> business elite, but it's growing. And it's not that hard.
>
> Take a look at http://www.kynn.com/quislet/ for a view of the web from a
> palm-style WinCE device. (Quislet being the machine name of that device)

In terms of the kind of content you can display, that is pretty limiting. Really I
am not impressed at all. Looks like something for reading a few lines of text,
just like the other PDA's I have seen.

IMHO, until display technology catches up with chip technology, PDA's are always
going to be of very limiting value. Yah they are cool gadgets to show at trade
shows, but if I really needed to see some important information, I would take the
time to sit down at a computer or else hook in my notebook and get what I want on
a screen capable of displaying something with a monitor resolution better than
that of the TRS-80.

Tyler


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From tyler at infinet.com  Sat Jan 22 02:55:41 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675254@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <38891BB1.32A0A47D@infinet.com>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> Brandt Dainow wrote,
> > SUMMARY:
> > IE 5= 46.6%
> > IE 4= 23.2%
> > NS 4= 25.8%
> > NS 3= 01.5%
> > REST= 02.9%
>
> I still have a gut feeling that 46.6% is unrepresentatively
> high.

I am not surprised. I would say that there is likely a higher number of people who still
have 2.0x and 3.0x browsers on their machines, but these people rarely surf the web and
mostly just use the internet for email. They are not frequent internet users so a simple
poll of random people who say they have "been on the internet" is probably not as accurate
an indicator of the real internet user base than the compilation of web browser hits Mr.
Dainow provided us.

> Incidentally, I gather that AOL have been mailing their
> user base recently, notifying them that the next release of
> the AOL browser will be Netscape rather than IE based. I
> wonder what that switch will do to the stats ...

Hard to say. Either way it does not matter much because both products are mostly clones of
each other with nothing significant to offer either way. There is no compelling choice to
use one or the other unless you have something against MS or AOL. A lot of people dislike
both companies so I guess it is the choice of the lesser of two evils (-:

Tyler


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Sat Jan 22 03:11:19 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?)
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com> <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <006b01bf6487$2ab48760$0201a8c0@tomshp>


Michael Champion wrote:
>
<snip/>
> The need for better writing in W3C specs was discussed at a recent W3C WG
> meeting I attended.  That particular group generally agreed that the specs
> need to be written more clearly, and the plan (I don't know if anything
came
> of it) was to lobby our W3C Advisory Committee representatives to push the
> W3C to devote more of its admittedly scarce resources to hiring staff
> technical writers, or getting members to contribute the time of technical
> writers as well as XML specialists to the activities of the working groups
> they participate on.
>
> This posting (and a diatribe against the Schema draft that I saw today)
> reminded me to bring this issue to my AC Rep's attention. Can anyone
suggest
> other concrete proposals for improving the situation?
>
The thing about the writing is this:  the Recs must communicate clearly and,
we hope :-), unambiguously to would-be users.  Think of all the arguments on
this list that occur because neither the letter nor the intent of a Rec is
clear.  There are two common ways to improve on written material.  One is
peer review.  You should choose some reviewers that are expert in the field.
The second is mass review, sort of like beta testing.  Discussion groups
could do this.

Trouble with peer review is, who could you get, especially without pay, who
isn't already involved?  Trouble with discussion groups is, a lot of the
people responding are either not knowledgeable enough or don't read the
material closely enough. Still, where there is widespread misunderstanding,
the material probably needs rewriting.  This mechanism is already being
used, although I don't know how much it matters to the working groups.

The IETF won't bless an RFC until there are two independent implementations.
I think this is the right kind of approach.  Surely, Tim B's Lark
implementation must have been a great help to the XML committee (I'm
guessing, I don't really know anything about its role).  There's nothing
like trying to build to a spec to uncover its lack of clarity.

To some extent, these can all be regarded as issues of Quality Assurance.
It would probably be useful for the W3C to have written standards on the
required QA and how to apply them.  Maybe it already does.

Would anyone on one of the Working Groups like to fill us in on these
things?

Tom Passin


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From tyler at infinet.com  Sat Jan 22 03:13:20 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000121103813.14409A-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <38891FDD.FC4968B5@infinet.com>

Steven Champeon wrote:

> On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Dave Winer wrote:
> > So much heat!
> >
> > Is it passion or fear?
>
> It's fear that the willfully ignorant attitudes you express may in fact be
> indicative of the beliefs of others.
>
> > Here's the truth, as best as I can express it.
> >
> > There are lots of different webs.
>
> No. There is one Web.
>
> > WAP phones, Lynx, Geocities, Homestead, Linux, SlashDot, XML, eBay, WebTV,
> > AOL, News.Com, NYTimes.Com, Vignette, PornCity, PHP, Wiki, Zope, Mozilla,
> > Manila, and on and on.
>
> All of them use HTTP (a W3C standard), HTML (a W3C standard), MIME (an IETF
> standard), ASCII, GIF, JPEG, URIs and URLs (IETF standard), etc. That makes
> them all part of one Web. The World Wide Web.

Actually in technical terms if your web site hyperlings to another web site which
hyperlinks to another web site, then yes that is a web. But PornCity probably does not
have any links to Homestead and vice-versa. In this sense, the web is a bunch of different
communities, each community linked together indirectly through hyperlinking. You could say
the search engines act as a gateway to all of these other communities, but in reality
there really are a bunch of different webs out there, potentially millions now.

> > Apples and oranges, but each one says the web is something different.
>
> No, each expresses their piece in different ways, using the technologies
> that go to form the one Web. You're saying that there are many different
> ideas of publishing based on the fact that there exists more than one book.
> We finally have a way to share information among all the Net-connected
> people of the world, thanks to some highly commodified standards, and your
> reaction is "let's turn it back into a proprietary system, that's what's
> happening anyway" and "let's exclude everybody!"

As I always understood things from the beginning, the WWW was HTTP and in effect reflected
the hyperlinking system of HTML. Real standards are defined by the marketplace, not some
ivory tower standards body. The Windoze operating system became a standard on the desktop
for a variety of reasons, some of them unethical, but in the end the market and the
user-base chose the standard. I have no problem with standardizing protocols or API's for
inter-application communication, but standardizing applications like web browsers is just
plain dumb. It is like all of a sudden after almost ten years of rapid growth on the
internet, we all decide that is the end of technological improvement and we all become
Amish. Why on earth after every century ends and a new century begins a group of people
come together and say that there is no more room for technological improvement or
innovation anymore. They just want to put the world in a time capsule by legalizing all
these silly standards and stop wasting time.

> It's sad, really. Pathetic and sad. And, because you should know better,
> it's raising people's ire.

I think it is sad that some people these days are working harder to prevent innovation
than the creative people are working to create innovation.

Tyler


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 22 03:16:44 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38891A0E.9ACE6545@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEHMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi

Ann Navarro wrote:

> At 08:25 PM 1/20/00 -0500, Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> >As for surfing the internet on cell-phones and other hand-held devices?
Give
> >me a break.
> >Maybe for checking a few sports scores or some stock quotes or a few text
> >messages, but
> >browsing web sites?
>
> Sure, it's done all the time. Today, quite often by power users and
> business elite, but it's growing. And it's not that hard.
>
> Take a look at http://www.kynn.com/quislet/ for a view of the web from a
> palm-style WinCE device. (Quislet being the machine name of that device)

Didier replies:
Ann, when I looked at the HTMl source this was a real pleasure. This piece
of code is so well laid out with identation and so on... that I whish all
HTML documents would be like that.

Sometime, It is also good to say when something is remarkably realized ;-)

Cheers



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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 22 03:27:48 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Browsers evolution
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEHMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

As I have said I have compiled the numbers from free stats sites and a paid
stat service (do tell that :-)

The number and compiled form february 1999 to december 1999 and are
translated into a graph.

If you want to be cautious, count an error margin of 8% cause mainly by a
disproportion of north American users. 10% if you are very very cautious and
100% if you are totally incredulous :-))

The link is: http://www.netfolder.com/XML/Browsers.htm

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 22 05:30:40 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000121212408.014fc100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 09:33 AM 1/21/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>If we say that the margin of error of this sample is 10% , it means that at
>least 31% of the browsers in the population sampled has an XML browser, not
>bad. So, if we make the right inferences:

That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
I don't. -Tim

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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 22 05:30:53 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding
  impenetrable language; reconsider?)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000121212904.01500470@pop.intergate.ca>

At 10:17 PM 1/21/00 -0500, Thomas B. Passin wrote:
>The thing about the writing is this:  the Recs must communicate clearly and,
>we hope :-), unambiguously to would-be users.  Think of all the arguments on
>this list that occur because neither the letter nor the intent of a Rec is
>clear.  There are two common ways to improve on written material.  One is
>peer review.  You should choose some reviewers that are expert in the field.
>The second is mass review, sort of like beta testing.  Discussion groups
>could do this.

Well, the original XML WG had an Interest Group with well over a hundred
members, many of them very opinionated.  I think the problem was they
were too close to the problem and focused on the issues not the language.

>Trouble with peer review is, who could you get, especially without pay, who
>isn't already involved?  Trouble with discussion groups is, a lot of the
>people responding are either not knowledgeable enough 

or too knowledgable.

>The IETF won't bless an RFC until there are two independent implementations.
>I think this is the right kind of approach.  

So do a lot of W3C-folk, and the process is being adjusted to allow for
this.

>Surely, Tim B's Lark
>implementation must have been a great help to the XML committee.

Nope, that was my thought, but Lark was pretty useless as a spec
debugger because I implemented what I understood as opposed to what the
spec might actually have said.  We got better comments from other folk.
Still, it is true that the fact that there implementations starting in
early '97 was awfuly useful.
 -Tim

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Sat Jan 22 06:07:08 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000121212408.014fc100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388948F3.AEE1CBEA@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 09:33 AM 1/21/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
> >If we say that the margin of error of this sample is 10% , it means that at
> >least 31% of the browsers in the population sampled has an XML browser, not
> >bad. So, if we make the right inferences:
> 
> That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
> I don't. -Tim

Two words:  links, lists.  IE5 handles neither its XML/CSS support.

I happen to use both of them constantly in content I produce.  Doing
without is not an option.

- Dave

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From schampeo at hesketh.com  Sat Jan 22 06:35:20 2000
From: schampeo at hesketh.com (Steven Champeon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <38891FDD.FC4968B5@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000122013046.29775B-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>

On Fri, 21 Jan 2000, Tyler Baker ignored a simple convention in order to express in lines of almost 100 cpl:
> > No. There is one Web.
...
> Actually in technical terms if your web site hyperlings to another web site which
> hyperlinks to another web site, then yes that is a web.

"web" != "Web". But I don't suppose you're interested in that, as you 
can't even seem to get the definition of little w "web" right.

> But PornCity probably does not
> have any links to Homestead and vice-versa. In this sense, the web is a bunch of different
> communities, each community linked together indirectly through hyperlinking. You could say
> the search engines act as a gateway to all of these other communities, but in reality
> there really are a bunch of different webs out there, potentially millions now.

Yes. And all of them use HTTP, HTML, etc. Open standards, regardless of
which sophistries you employ to try to obscure their relatedness.

Steve


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From srinivasav at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 22 07:44:03 2000
From: srinivasav at yahoo.com (av srinivas)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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From srinivasav at yahoo.com  Sat Jan 22 07:48:54 2000
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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Sat Jan 22 14:10:21 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: let's get back to work...
Message-ID: <3889BAD9.39DAC8D7@trantor.de>

Hello!

I am not sure if I missed the final conclusion of the SAX2 interning
question in the flood of the browser wars messages. As far as I
remember, some people were arguing against interning that it might be a
huge overherad for filters, already getting string objects from their
source. If there has been no consensus yet, I would like to suggest
that:

1. no parser is forced to intern elment name / element prefix strings
2. a SAX2 parser can be queried if it does string interning
3. all parsers intern namespaceURIs to avoid the null.equals (...)
problem. Namespace interning
   should be cheap since an XML document normally does not contain tons
of Namespace declarations
   and should also pay off quickly since namespace URI tend to be long
strings.

Best regards

Stefan Haustein

--
SAX-based access to WBXML and WML: www.trantor.de/wbxml
XML pull parser: www.trantor.de/xml

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 22 14:21:49 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000121212408.014fc100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEHPEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Tim,

Tim said:
That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
I don't. -Tim

Didier replies:
Its a point of view. Its like saying that, at the beginning of the century
these flying things where not airplanes and this wasn't the case until super
jet appeared. You may say that, it all depends of the definition of what an
airplane is and so it is the case for XML browsers.

 I would say, however, and this is my opinion, that IE5 is an XML browser,
not a perfect one, not probably the best one and probably not the most
popular within certain circles, but it remains that it can download XML and
render it, imperfectly I agree, with XSLT and a bit better with CSS.
Features are still missing to make it a better XML browser? yes off course
like these airplanes at the beginning of the century. Nonetheless these
thing where flying, nonetheless, this thing (IE5) browses XML.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sat Jan 22 14:31:15 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <388948F3.AEE1CBEA@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAEEIAEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi David,

David said:
Two words:  links, lists.  IE5 handles neither its XML/CSS support.

I happen to use both of them constantly in content I produce.  Doing
without is not an option.

Didier replies:
I agree, this is missing in this still imperfect product. So, your rendition
language of choice for XML is CSS if I understand you well. I hope Microsoft
people are listening. Do you hear us?

missing in IE5:
- CSS: support for links
	support for table
	support for list
- XSLT:
	support for XPath
	adapt to new recommendation modifications since the release.

Also, to the SUN, the AOL and the IBM of this world, can you please just put
some money or resources in Mozilla and walk your talk just for a moment.


Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From elharo at metalab.unc.edu  Sat Jan 22 16:44:21 2000
From: elharo at metalab.unc.edu (Elliotte Rusty Harold)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Revised XLinks and XPointers chapters
In-Reply-To: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>
References: <8DCB90532FF7D211B34400805FD48853DAD595@SENMAIL3>
Message-ID: <v04210105b4af8bbc8f31@[192.168.1.254]>

I have updated Chapter 16, XLinks, and Chapter 17, XPointers,  of the 
XML Bible to cover the latest working draft of XLink published 
January 19, 2000. You'll find them at

http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/updates/16.html
http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/updates/17.html

The main change in the XLink chapter was removing all references to the
element based syntax that was eliminated in the last draft. I also 
added information about the new semantics of xlink:show and 
xlink:actuate and cleaned up the discussion of linkbases and external 
link sets. The XPointer chapter didn't change very much. Mostly I 
just cleaned up some detritus that had been removed in earlier 
working drafts but that I had missed in previous revisions, like the 
vertical bar | as an alternative to # in URIs.

+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
| Elliotte Rusty Harold | elharo@metalab.unc.edu | Writer/Programmer |
+-----------------------+------------------------+-------------------+
|                  The XML Bible (IDG Books, 1999)                   |
|              http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/books/bible/               |
|   http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0764532367/cafeaulaitA/   |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+
|  Read Cafe au Lait for Java News:  http://metalab.unc.edu/javafaq/ |
|  Read Cafe con Leche for XML News: http://metalab.unc.edu/xml/     |
+----------------------------------+---------------------------------+

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Sat Jan 22 18:50:28 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: MODERATION, etc.
In-Reply-To: <14472.38628.762461.885216@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <E12C5c8-0003bp-0W@anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net>

At 12:27 PM 1/21/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>Really, guys and girls -- it was fun, but let's stop now.  You're all
>right, everyone wins, and shut up or I'll ask the US DOJ to ban
>all browsers except Lynx.

I take this as an opportunity to raise the question of moderation, now that
the list will shortly transfer physically to OASIS. In the best traditions
of the list I look forward to constructive ideas for the future.

When Henry and I started XML-DEV (essentially 3 years ago) it had the
primary purpose:
	- to help XML succeed as a global approach to interoperability.
In the first year or so I was active as a "moderator" (by consent rather
than by technology!) in keeping the postings fairly centered on the core
basis of XML:
	- helping the drafters of the specs get a wide feedback
	- acting as an incubator and disseminator of technology
	- creating a virtual community
It was by no means clear in those days that XML was going to succeed. It
was "SGML on the web" and relegated to a lowly position on the W3C pages.
We felt that a clear focus was critical and so I would tend to moderate
discussion that was discursive rather than centered on the objectives. The
current "browser" discussion would have been gently damped down.

For the last year I have deliberately not "moderated" until recently.
[Interestingly no-one mailed me and asked me to change this. Occasionally
people asked if I was still alive.] I have been impressed by the discipline
of the postings (very little in the way of flames and those have been
communally damped). The spread of subjects has been broader and in general
seems to have been valuable. We have now entered the semantic and
ontological marketplace and it is not surprising that we are seeing many
strongly held views surface and resurface. Some may feel that these simply
revisit old ground, but for others they may be fresh and for me they are
often a fresh view the second time round.

I think it would be useful to have views on whether XML-DEV should continue
in this freeweheeling fashion - based on an unwritten constitution. My
attempt to summarise this would be that:

	- it is for people who have a serious interest in "XML" (the protocols,
the tools, the philosophy). [It is not generally a place for newbie
questions, though these are treated courteously on- and off-line]
	- there is a self-denying ordinance on advertising (products, jobs, etc.)
	- there is a strong sense of courtesy even when strongly held views differ
	- there is a strong and valuable tradition of a virtual community which
looks to provide common solutions where possible. There is a tolerance of
sub-groups which pursue such solutions even if others "know better". 
	- there is a valued history of such subgroups setting up their own offline
maillists and reporting back
	- there are several papers/protocols which have been written communally
and which have found favour in the XML community
	- several members of the list without previous XML/SGML connections have
shown commitment and competence and have been welcomed into more formal XML
processes.
	
	Is this a useful manifesto for the future? Does it offer the community
sufficient guidance to work without formal moderation?

	P.

PS. I think a little more discipline in Subjects/threads, and also in
avoiding unnecessary quoting, would be valuable.

[NB. Henry and I are thinking hard about archiving and "editing" - in the
scholarly sense - the 3 XML-DEV years. One thing that would be very useful
would be any tools which can reliable parse the variety of mail messages we
have had. This mainly relates to detecting quoting, start of signature,
etc. In that way we can come up with an XML version. where quotes can be
replaced by hyperlinks, etc. and so increase the readability.]

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> 

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:58 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: My browser is longer than your browser
References: <14472.38628.762461.885216@localhost.localdomain> <20000121132412.C32718@w3.org>
Message-ID: <3889F485.3C63@hiwaay.net>

Daniel Veillard wrote:

>  May I also suggest changing at least the mails titles for this
> thread :-)

Now that's fear.  There are some pages out there which 
sell browser stretching devices.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:55 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000121212408.014fc100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <3889F753.1C59@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
> I don't. -Tim

Sad, because in the near to mid term, the dominant implementations will
more 
effectively define XML than XML1.0. So, vote with your feet if you 
must, but choose to lose.

OTOH, those non-browser web apps which use XML might also vote with 
their feet.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:56:15 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
		 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29> <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <3889FC15.6F72@hiwaay.net>

You want me to say "use IE5 only".  I won't.  That would 
ignore a lot of other useful tech.  There are however, 
applications for which choosing only one browser. 
insisting on it makes good engineering sense, and in fact, 
is the responsible act.  What I will not work 
with is the meaningless labels, "open", "commodity", 
"universal" etc. because they have no provable results. 
You don't know what they mean nor do I, and so really, 
drop them from the conversation unless we have a 
reference we can agree on.

Take this example:  Yoyodyne.  If I use a reference 
to work out what this label means and predict results, 
I would not use that company.  Why?  The reference says, 
"critters from dimension eight; enemies of buckaroo 
bonzai; beware the spider creatures they spit when they 
need to escape an unwinnable confronatation".  
Two nanoseconds of rational thought makes 
me seek an alternate definition, but not finding 
one, I have to conclude the name is a private joke. 

That kind of thinking isn't good enough for building 
reliable applications over component technology.  What 
I need are repeatable test results that provide sufficient 
assurance that the components has features to perform 
the tasks I require and for which I require a legal 
contract binding all parties to the performance.  This 
is why for many applications, citing "IE5 only" is 
the reasonable and responsible answer.

So back to the original question:  who here thinks 
the future of the web is in "TheWebBrowser"?  What 
all of you have shown conclusively (thank you) is that there 
is no way to say what "TheWebBrowser" is, so the 
parties have to pick one and go with that for the 
duration of the contract.

The alternative to the W3C is to cite tests for 
components.  That these components may implement 
W3C specifications is assumed.   In lieu of 
a means of proving that, alternatives are needed.

By the way, this is where the FPI has value.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:52 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
References: <000c01bf6432$f576a8c0$dcd65c8b@p300>
Message-ID: <3889F3E4.1645@hiwaay.net>

Brandt Dainow wrote:
> 
> I forgot to mention that Macromedia were part of the VML proposal, so I
> guess we'll see VML in their products too.  I wonder what this'll mean for
> Shockwave & Flash.  Irrespective of performance or quality, I  don't see how
> SVG stands a chance against an MS/Macromedia alliance, they must control
> something like 80-90% of all the authoring tools.  I guess we can also
> expect HP to use VML in their printers.
> Truetype was a combined HP/MS development as a response to Adobe's
> postscript.  Are we going to see history repeat itself?

It stands a good chance.  People actually check the standardization 
before going forward.  Some also hang back waiting for stable 
implementations.  A lot depends on the value of the information 
to be marked up.  SVG will do well.  We will experiment with VML 
to get a feel for markup in graphics, then move on out with SVG 
when the timing is right.  

Considering that using markup for graphics used to be a killing 
offense, we have come a long ways.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:42 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:32 2004
Subject: XML for 3D geometry and objects
References: <919BB1540F0ED31181F600500486B85D113F17@I3_DEVEXCH>
Message-ID: <3889F1BA.28E6@hiwaay.net>

Charlie Kaiman wrote:
> 
> Could someone enlighten us -- or at least me -- on VML/SVG and what is *so*
> revolutionary about them?  I seen some amazing things done with VRML, but
> the VML demos (that I've seen) just don't compare?  Is there a difference?

VRML97 - real time 3D animation with textures, inclusions, API, and so
forth

SVG - namespace enabled 2D markup language (DOM enabled?);  pretty much 
a spec for the original Chamberlain/Goldfarb paper on the subject from 
the early SGML days

X3D - the project name for the VRML200x (Revision of VRML97) and also
the 
name for the XML encoding for VRML200x.  VRML is redefined using an 
abstract IDL and two encodings (X3D/XML and UTF-8/VRML97 syntax).  

SVG as revolutionary app to web?  No, just the vector way to replace 
the GIFs, PNGs, etc. with all of the vector advantages.  VRML200x 
will be profiled to enable scalable implementations such that 
one can deliver the browser with the content.   SVG and VRML are 
targeted to different product types with the usual amount of 
overlap.  The X3D and SVG designers have liaisons to try to get 
that overlap to work for the consumers.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:34 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
	 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
	 <4.1.20000120142223.03963280@216.65.70.29> <4.1.20000121091035.047d69b0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <3889EF71.2FFD@hiwaay.net>

Ann Navarro wrote:
> 
> At 10:42 PM 1/20/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> 
> > That is the level at which your thesis fails
> >and if we were to rely on that, our customers would fail.  In our
> >case, that means the ambulance does not get dispatched on time to your
> >Mom's house when your uncle has a heart attack.
> 
> Quite frankly, putting a CAD system in the hands of ASP scares me more than
> anything else a consultant might or might not know.
> 
> Ann (veteran of 10 years behind the mike between San Jose PD/FD, King
> County (WA) PD, and Monterey County, CA consolidated PD/FD dispatch centers).

But putting an application that uses web technology in other 
hands that can post events via ASP to the dispatch center is 
precisely one of the hot selling items.  Things change.  What 
hasn't changed is the need for high reliability in that 
application and right now, it is achieved by picking a 
browser and sticking to that framework.

QED.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:40 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675254@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3889F024.7259@hiwaay.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:

> Incidentally, I gather that AOL have been mailing their
> user base recently, notifying them that the next release of
> the AOL browser will be Netscape rather than IE based. I
> wonder what that switch will do to the stats ...

Make the jobs of the Microsoft defense team much simpler.

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 22 18:55:35 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
	 	 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
	 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
	 <38877033.EB1233D1@pacbell.net> <3887E557.6D37@hiwaay.net> <v04210101b4add5ed542b@[192.38.86.50]>
Message-ID: <3889EE08.57C1@hiwaay.net>

Michael Rose wrote:
>
> If the answer the answer to that question is yes (which apparently it
> is), and if that difference is important (which it seems to be to a
> significant number of developers here) then shouldn't future W3C
> standards address this problem? Otherwise, why should we even bother
> with the standards?
> 
> If browsers are really a commodity then, as others have said, the
> innovations should go through the W3C. Then browsers X and Y can
> compete on other features, reliability being an excellent example.

That brings us back to the original thread:  alternatives to the 
W3C.  The W3C does not insist on reliability in implementation.

Here is a different tact:  consider that the W3C specs are 
imcomplete with regards to implementation.  Reliability is testable 
for implemented components.  A spec may provide conformance criteria 
for conformance testing.  This is how MPEG approaches the problem 
using patented technologies.  The patents are an emotional issue 
for some and in my opinion, the content must not be tied to a 
patented implementation.  Yet, a patented implementation such as 
MPEG may provide licensed components with provable performance 
and conformance numbers that can deliver that content reliably.

Those who have said they insist on IE5 do so because they are insisting 
on reliability in the implementation of features to support the 
content.  They do not choose to get reliability for universal 
access through lowest common denominator design.

len



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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 22 19:11:18 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000122110912.01505320@pop.intergate.ca>

At 10:06 PM 1/21/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>> That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
>> I don't. -Tim
>
>Two words:  links, lists.  IE5 handles neither its XML/CSS support.

On top of which, if you combine XML & CSS you seem to lose access to
the DOM. And why would I bother sending XML to a browser if I
didn't plan to do something other than display it once it got there;
and how can I do anything if the DOM isn't there?  Case closed.

If anyone has actually managed to get the DOM working in the 
XML+CSS environment, please let us know how. -Tim


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From ann at webgeek.com  Sat Jan 22 19:15:46 2000
From: ann at webgeek.com (Ann Navarro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
In-Reply-To: <3889EF71.2FFD@hiwaay.net>
References: <Pine.LNX.3.95.1000119181238.24127M-100000@wasabi.hesketh.net>
 <4.1.20000119190027.04d07ed0@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120095226.04d91320@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000120142223.03963280@216.65.70.29>
 <4.1.20000121091035.047d69b0@216.65.70.29>
Message-ID: <4.1.20000122141308.00c85770@mail.webgeek.com>

At 11:57 AM 1/22/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:

>  What 
>hasn't changed is the need for high reliability in that 
>application and right now, it is achieved by picking a 
>browser and sticking to that framework.

In a closed system such as CAD, that takes appropriate consideration for
accessibility where needed for staff, that's possible.  Previous
discussions were about web applications generally open to the public, not
primarily closed systems such as these. 

But my caution in this case wouldn't be with the selection of a browser,
but the choice of ASP technology :)

Ann

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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 22 19:17:40 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000122191705.73422.qmail@hotmail.com>

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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 22 19:33:59 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: MODERATION, etc.
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000122113205.01502580@pop.intergate.ca>

At 06:43 PM 1/22/00 +0000, Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>I think it would be useful to have views on whether XML-DEV should continue
>in this freeweheeling fashion - based on an unwritten constitution. My
>attempt to summarise this would be that:

Peter, whenever you have the time, any moderation-style input would be
more than welcome, from me at least.

>	- there is a self-denying ordinance on advertising (products, jobs, etc.)

Actually, I like seeing job postings here.  It's good solid information
about what's going on in the world.  I also don't mind seeing press
releases about new products or projects.

 -Tim

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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Sat Jan 22 21:05:18 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: MODERATION, etc.
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000122113205.01502580@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001221253150.5626-100000@netcom3.netcom.com>

On Sat, 22 Jan 2000, Tim Bray wrote:

> Actually, I like seeing job postings here.  It's good solid information
> about what's going on in the world.  I also don't mind seeing press
> releases about new products or projects.

I'm OK with the job postings as long as they're by principals only
(recruiter ads don't carry much information, and also rival recruiters
feel compelled to compete over who can dump the most database entries into
the forum; this sort of competition made the Usenet jobs forums pretty
much useless).  New product announcements are fine with me, but should be
one-time-only; we have excellent resources (e.g. Robin Cover's and James
Tauber's) for finding out about existing products.

As for other moderation policy, I think it's useful for a moderator to be
able to say at some point "this thread has been going on for two weeks
without anything new being said.  Therefore, this topic will be closed
five days from now and only messages saying something new will be posted
after that."  This works especially well if there's a companion,
unmoderated list to which closed topics can be moved.

Oh, and one of the duties of the moderator should be to keep quoted
detritus (mail headers, .sigs, trailer messages from free mailing
services, etc.) off the list.  This list has been good so far; OTOH,
reading XSL-List is almost painful for me because nearly every post (I
read it in digest form) has practically the whole thread, detritus and
all, quoted at the end.


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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Sat Jan 22 21:28:31 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction 
In-Reply-To: root's message of Sat, 22 Jan 2000 10:39:57 +0300.
             <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001221027010.4801-100000@sorokin.rphys.mipt.ru> 
Message-ID: <200001221632.LAA01639@trinity.viaduct.com>

Nikita said:
> IMHO, the OO principles _can_ be expressed by Schema.
> (OO languages is a subset of Schema or Schema is an extension of OO
> languages). 
<snip/>
> . So there is no matter how you describe this:
> by making iheritance with extension/restriction or by writing all the
> children for each element. Derivation in schema is provided for a little
> more convinience. 

Hi Nikita,

I think saying that "Schema is an extension of OO
languages" is plain wrong(and a bit weird), but well,that is not the
point at hand... 
Since I think you are seeing my last mail a bit simplistically I will
try to rephrase it,so I don't mislead others:

During the writing of some C++ classes for the representation of data
conforming with a particular schema I began to wonder about the
"translation" of an arbitrary schema to domain specific objects
(pretty much in the way exactml or some oracle products do nowadays
with DTDs) and I started to wonder about the implications of
derivation by restriction.

What I'm looking for is whether the impedance of Der. by Rest. on OO
apps/representations has been considered by anyone before...(not a
basic description of how derivation works,Nikita.But thanks).

So it's more of an open question about the rationale of derivation by
restriction... how necessary, really convinient is it? is this
translation to Domain specific objects a unique case of *possibly*
negative impact? (btw, I admit it would only be a problem to the
conformance principle in some translations... there are workarounds).

>From private responses to my post, it seems the question about the
rationale of derivation by restriction is not only in my
mind... sure Derivation by Restriction will be an additional burden to
implementors, so it sure has a good rationale behind it...

Best,
	Fabio

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.		        Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: 	      "Abandon normal instruments"


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From stefan.haustein at trantor.de  Sun Jan 23 12:08:56 2000
From: stefan.haustein at trantor.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
References: <200001221632.LAA01639@trinity.viaduct.com>
Message-ID: <388AEFE2.8B8C80A2@trantor.de>

> During the writing of some C++ classes for the representation of data
> conforming with a particular schema I began to wonder about the
> "translation" of an arbitrary schema to domain specific objects
> (pretty much in the way exactml or some oracle products do nowadays
> with DTDs) and I started to wonder about the implications of
> derivation by restriction.
> 
> What I'm looking for is whether the impedance of Der. by Rest. on OO
> apps/representations has been considered by anyone before...(not a
> basic description of how derivation works,Nikita.But thanks).

I think the main point here is that derivation in 
object orientation means specialization. So if B is 
a subclass of A, you can replace any occurence of A 
by B. If you specialize B by restriction, that does 
not hurt object orientation as long a any instance of 
B is still a valid instance of A, too.

This principle would be violated if you "restrict" B 
that a subelement required in A is not required in B. 
In fact, that would not be a specialization or 
restriction but a generalization. If I read the specs 
right, you are not allowed to widen the [minOccurs...
maxOccurs] interval, so the problem you address seems 
not exist.

Best regards

Stefan

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From jgarrett at navix.net  Sun Jan 23 13:12:30 2000
From: jgarrett at navix.net (Jim Garrett)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: FW: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <NBBBJCNHDKPCNLILCIOHKEFHDCAA.jgarrett@navix.net>


Currently I can say ..

I can get from XML/XSL-here to XML/XSL-there with>>
IE5 - YES
Netsquat - Nooooooo
IE4 - Nooooo, but Yes if I install the XML dll

Yes in the beginning of aviation, there
were no closed cockpits, no onboard
restrooms, no flight attendants, blah blah blah...
but at least they could
...take off
...fly there
...land there
so wha-lah ...you got there...

So add my take to Didier's later post..
MOZILLABreath "It's Time To Walk the Talk" !!!!!

But If I move all the transformation to
IIS, then Mozilla tongue can still sit
there and be a browser choice....

This business of buying Netscape and then
just stirring a cold pot all the live long
day is kinda going no where....so why should
I as a developer wait for them to see if DOJ
chops up MS...NOT!!!!

As many know, the 7 layer model always had
the hidden EIGHT layer ...i.e. "political"

Non-technically merited AOL said, "...we will
meld Mozilla into AOL so we can have
a browser version of our online product
that fully supports ...blah blah blah..."

*shrug shoulders*
JDGarrett
"Got IE5...?"



|-----Original Message-----
|From: owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk [mailto:owner-xml-dev@ic.ac.uk]On Behalf Of
|Didier PH Martin
|Sent: Friday, January 21, 2000 8:11 PM
|To: Tim Bray; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
|Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
|
|
|Hi Tim,
|
|Tim said:
|That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
|I don't. -Tim
|
|Didier replies:
|Its a point of view. Its like saying that, at the beginning of the century
|these flying things where not airplanes and this wasn't the case
|until super
|jet appeared. You may say that, it all depends of the definition of what an
|airplane is and so it is the case for XML browsers.
|
| I would say, however, and this is my opinion, that IE5 is an XML browser,
|not a perfect one, not probably the best one and probably not the most
|popular within certain circles, but it remains that it can download XML and
|render it, imperfectly I agree, with XSLT and a bit better with CSS.
|Features are still missing to make it a better XML browser? yes off course
|like these airplanes at the beginning of the century. Nonetheless these
|thing where flying, nonetheless, this thing (IE5) browses XML.
|
|Cheers
|Didier PH Martin
|----------------------------------------------
|Email: martind@netfolder.com
|Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
|Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
|Products: http://www.netfolder.com
|
|
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Sun Jan 23 13:17:16 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000122110912.01505320@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <200001231317.IAA08381@hesketh.net>

At 11:10 AM 1/22/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:
>On top of which, if you combine XML & CSS you seem to lose access to
>the DOM. And why would I bother sending XML to a browser if I
>didn't plan to do something other than display it once it got there;
>and how can I do anything if the DOM isn't there?  Case closed.
>
>If anyone has actually managed to get the DOM working in the 
>XML+CSS environment, please let us know how. -Tim

That plus support for simple XLinks is about the minimum needed for
building Web sites.  IE 5.0 will let you read XML+CSS; it won't let you
surf it.  

(I could try its bizarrely broken html: pseudo-namespace, but let's not
even go there.)


Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From Jason.Paich at Aspect.com  Sun Jan 23 14:27:24 2000
From: Jason.Paich at Aspect.com (Paich, Jason)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <25AFB008EF1DD3118184009027620FD889345C@naems17.aspect.com>

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From jesmith at kaon.com  Sun Jan 23 14:51:48 2000
From: jesmith at kaon.com (Joshua E. Smith)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Sorry, off topic
Message-ID: <3.0.1.32.20000123095210.00d32954@tiac.net>

<gossip>
I've seen a couple references on this list to signs that AOL is going to
switch to mozilla (instead of IE).  Even if this is just a rumor, I'd
appreciate a link to the source of this info...
</gossip>

Thanks.

-Joshua Smith


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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Sun Jan 23 15:04:11 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
In-Reply-To: stefan.haustein's message of Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:11:14 +0100.
             <388AEFE2.8B8C80A2@trantor.de> 
Message-ID: <200001231509.KAA10720@trinity.viaduct.com>


Hi Stefan,

> This principle would be violated if you "restrict" B 
> that a subelement required in A is not required in B. 

Right, at least if we map every restriction to an inheritance during
the translation. This can be not so, but it brings questions about the
usefulness of derivation by restriction.

> If I read the specs 
> right, you are not allowed to widen the [minOccurs...
> maxOccurs] interval, so the problem you address seems 
> not exist.

I understand your point; The key word is "required";Yet, my _real_
concern is not about the congruence of type definition on the Schema
in which you are right: since Derivation by Restriction always *narrows*
[minoccurs ... maxoccurs] or eliminates members of a disjunction, B,
inherited by restriction from A is always a member of the original
type. 

The differences between typing in Object calculi and typing in
schemas may render my original example useless even in the cases where
and schema is used to reflect OO constructs different than data
containers (case in which, we agree there is no problem). Furthermore,
as I mentioned in the previous mail, even for the strangest cases I
could think of when using schemas to define other OO/OA ideas
(e.g.Cross-cutting concerns) there are natural workarounds that avoid
compromising this and other principles...

However, this was just the oblique thought that started the wheel,
maybe the really important thing is that it brought me and others to
question the cost/benefit of derivation by restriction on Schema, as
well as its impact on implementors and users. 

Probably the best thing is to have D. by R. (I have a deep trust on Dr. H.T.
et al.); yet, I (we?) think that specially in the light of its impact
on implementors, more on the rationale/real added benefits of D. by R.
would be nice to hear.  

Best,
	Fabio

ps.Thanks, Stefan.

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.  	                    Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			         Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: "Feed the recording back out of the medium"

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From rev-bob at gotc.com  Sun Jan 23 15:11:05 2000
From: rev-bob at gotc.com (rev-bob@gotc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <200001231011530.SM01084@Unknown.>

> >If we say that the margin of error of this sample is 10% , it means that at
> >least 31% of the browsers in the population sampled has an XML browser, not
> >bad. So, if we make the right inferences:
> 
> That's only if you think that IE5 counts as an XML browser, realistically.
> I don't. -Tim

I've had to give this matter a lot of thought lately - ever since I started spawning an 
XHTML sibling site for my content - and I ultimately decided *not* to treat IE5 as 
XML-compliant.  Here's why.

First of all, one of my main objectives in the XHTML site is to rid myself of a lot of 
legacy code.  Any browser ever made has been able to handle HTML, so the HTML 
side of the site needs to support that as far as possible - or at least as far as reasonable.  
On the other hand, XML support is kind of scarce in that context, which means that I 
can remove a lot of legacy support from the XHTML code.  For instance, I can take 
out that one hack that dodges around the NN2 NOSCRIPT bug, and I can assume 
CSS1 as a viable alternative to finally do away with FONT and some other stuff.

With that in mind, it becomes clear that I have two ways to handle a visitor - route 'em 
to HTML, or send 'em to XHTML.  Since the HTML is designed to be legacy-friendly, 
I can send anyone there with confidence that they can see the content.  It makes for an 
excellent fallback system, and allows me to be a bit more draconian in my selection of 
XHTML browsers than I might be if XHTML was the only markup language around.  
The question, therefore, is not "how do I make my XHTML work on this browser" but 
rather "will this browser handle my XHTML" - the first assumes a site with one version; 
the second allows for HTML-targeted redirection.

Since IE5 does not adhere to certain parts of the XML/XHTML specs, I feel the best 
way to handle IE5 users is to send 'em to HTML by default.  Perhaps Mozilla will do 
better when finally released....



 Rev. Robert L. Hood  | http://rev-bob.gotc.com/
  Get Off The Cross!  | http://www.gotc.com/


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 15:30:01 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000122110912.01505320@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEIIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Tim,

Tim said:
On top of which, if you combine XML & CSS you seem to lose access to
the DOM. And why would I bother sending XML to a browser if I
didn't plan to do something other than display it once it got there;
and how can I do anything if the DOM isn't there?  Case closed.

If anyone has actually managed to get the DOM working in the
XML+CSS environment, please let us know how. -Tim

Didier replies:
With the behavior draft we can do that if a CSS?? (3 maybe) includes a
@script construct. In this case a full access to the DOM is feasible and
thus it provides user interaction processing in addition to rendition.

Ref: http://www.w3.org/TR/becss

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 15:50:02 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <200001231317.IAA08381@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEIIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Simon,

Simon said:
That plus support for simple XLinks is about the minimum needed for
building Web sites.  IE 5.0 will let you read XML+CSS; it won't let you
surf it.

(I could try its bizarrely broken html: pseudo-namespace, but let's not
even go there.)

Didier replies:
If we have the "link" property and the "@style" construct + EcmaScript we
have about everything needed to implement two kind of links:
a) simple links = object with "link" property
b) extended links = objects with attached behavior.

For extended links I already experimented with an EcmaScript behavior that
displays a menu in which all the links are displayed as menu options. Thus,
if you include an xlink:extended link in the document, this element is
associated to a behavior with a selector that match to either the
"xlink:extended" element or an other selector that matches to the attribute
"xlink:type="extended". the behavior uses the DOM to construct the context
menu from all the locators included in the extended link.

So, what is then required for an Xlink support is:
a) the link property
b) a behavior for the xlink:extended construct
c) and off course the behavior and @script constructs added to CSS.

ref: http://www.w3.org/TR/becss

If fact the behavior construct allows to create modular browser by adding
new functionalities in a standard way if the scripts are written in
EcmaScript and that they use strictly compliant DOMs.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From dave at userland.com  Sun Jan 23 16:06:22 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEIIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <096201bf65bb$c657b630$1918ccce@murphy>

Haven't seen this discussed here.

http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,9021,00.html

WAP is based on XML. A hot standard if there every was one. But there seems
to be a bug in the system. How will the Internet route around killer
patents?

Dave


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 16:09:27 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Sorry, off topic
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20000123095210.00d32954@tiac.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEIJEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Joshua,

Joshua said:
I've seen a couple references on this list to signs that AOL is going to
switch to mozilla (instead of IE).  Even if this is just a rumor, I'd
appreciate a link to the source of this info...

Didier replies:
me too I would be interested to see that info.

But here are some facts that may, I say may, lead us to some inferences on
how hard it could be for AOL to do the switch. Within the actual Mozilla
project there is a subProject that wraps the browser components with a DCOM
interface. This interface does not have the same class identifier as the
Microsoft Browser component but has exactly, I said exactly, the same
interface definition. Hence, if an application is actually using the
Microsoft component, then with just a minor modification of the class
identifier, this application can switch from the Microsoft component to the
Mozilla component. This switch of component do not require any other code
modification since the interfaces are strictly identical.

So, we can say that, as a possibility, because the AOL application embeds
the Microsoft browser component, AOL can switch to the Mozilla component
without any added costs since this latter has the same interfaces as the
Microsoft component. This is also valid for any other application that
embeds the Microsoft component.

The impact for any information or Web application publisher is that if AOL
embeds the Mozilla component, then this component will be installed on any
AOL customer having a Windows machine. Thus, we will have on this machine,
two components having the same interfaces but a different class identifier.
One of these components is installed with the operating system. In fact,
this is the case for any windows machine since Win95 Rel2. So, even if a big
corporation chooses not to use the Microsoft browser as corporate browser,
the Microsoft browser component is probably already installed on this
machine if this machine is having a Win95 Rel2 and up (Win98, WinNT 4).

So, if Netscape which is now owned by AOL chooses to release a Mozilla based
browser. This latter may include also the Mozilla component having the same
interface than the Microsoft component. This implies that if both AOL app
and the Netscape browser both include the Mozilla COM component, then any of
these machine will have a Mozilla component that can be used by any other
application. It implies that an application wanting to use a browser
component on a windows platform will have just to probe for
a) the Mozilla component
b) the Microsoft component
Choose one. The application has no code difference to work with one or the
other.

This is a good example of the power of using interfaces that are independent
of any implementation or language. Bottom line, on the window platform we
will have the choice between two components having the same interface but a
different implementation. The good news, both will be able to process XML.
The good news for developers, they'll have the choice between two
implementation without prohibitive costs. Will they use this opportunity?
we'll see.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 16:41:21 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <096201bf65bb$c657b630$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEILEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Dave,

Dave said:
Haven't seen this discussed here.

http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,9021,00.html

WAP is based on XML. A hot standard if there every was one. But there seems
to be a bug in the system. How will the Internet route around killer
patents?

Didier replies:
Dave I am confused by the article. On one hand they talk about the patent as
a patent about something that may be associated to style sheets and on the
other hand they talk about WAP which is more a protocol. So, After reading
the article I still do not know what really is the impact:
a) stylesheets are patented by Geowork
b) WML is patented
c) the WAP protocol is patented by Geowork

as we know WAP is only a protocol and has nothing to do with generic user
interface that allows the same application to appear on different displays.
But the article extract below suggests that the pattent is for something
that looks like a style sheet or to possibly WML if that is related to cell
phones.

Sorry, I do not catch what are _really_ the implication from this article.

extract from the article:
One of the patents the company filed during this period ? U.S. Patent No.
5,327,529, issued on July 5, 1994 ? described a process for designing
generic user interfaces for application programs, and making it possible for
the same application appear on different display devices. The patent gives
the company rights and legal protection in the United States and Japan
through July 5, 2011. That patent, the company believes, applies to a nearly
identical process used in the Wireless Application Protocol for displaying
data on the screens of various devices.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
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From dave at userland.com  Sun Jan 23 16:58:59 2000
From: dave at userland.com (Dave Winer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEILEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <099b01bf65c3$20b4a140$1918ccce@murphy>

Didier, I'm confused too!

There are more links on this site:

http://wap.editthispage.com/

Including a press release from Geoworks.

Even more confusing -- other members of the WAP Forum have killer patents
too, notably Phone.Com.

How does this shake out?

We're in new territory here.

Dave


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From jonsmirl at mediaone.net  Sun Jan 23 17:49:09 2000
From: jonsmirl at mediaone.net (Jon Smirl)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEILEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <009901bf65c9$faa7dc40$0200a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>

Here's the patent text:
http://www.patents.ibm.com/details?pn=US05327529__

Their explanation of patent claims:
http://www.geoworks.com/technology/ipr/Rev7GeoWIP.html

Here's the press release claiming royalties:
http://www.geoworks.com/technology/ipr/pr_gwrx-ipr.html

Their stock price has gone from $2 to $40 in the last two months. The rise
seems to be based on expectations of a large royalty stream from this
patent.

I see no mention of wireless in the patent, yet they appear to only be
applying the patent to WAP. It looks to me like a generic patent on the
concept of stylesheets.

Jon Smirl
jonsmirl@mediaone.net



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From terje at in-progress.com  Sun Jan 23 18:40:00 2000
From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <b4b0f96d0402100499b6@[207.137.31.159]>

At 6:18 PM 1/22/00, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Dave I am confused by the article. On one hand they talk about the patent as
>a patent about something that may be associated to style sheets and on the
>other hand they talk about WAP which is more a protocol. So, After reading
>the article I still do not know what really is the impact:
>a) stylesheets are patented by Geowork
>b) WML is patented
>c) the WAP protocol is patented by Geowork

The full patent text for "Process of designing user's interfaces for
application programs" is at the USPTO's website and available as:

http://164.195.100.11/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&
u=/netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1='5,327,529'.WKU.&OS=PN/5,327,529&RS=
PN/5,327,529

ABSTRACT:

A method for invoking a user interface for use with an application
operating in a computer system which involves providing in the computer
system a generic object class that corresponds to a class of function that
is to be performed using the user interface; specifying in the application
instance data in the form of a generic object specification that
corresponds to the generic object class, the instance data including
attribute criteria and hint criteria; providing in the computer system at
least one specific user interface toolbox and controller that operates in
the computer system to provide a selection of possible specific user
interface implementations for use in performing the class of function; and
providing in the computer system at least one interpreter that corresponds
to the at least one specific user interface toolbox and controller.

-- Terje <terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress

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   Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac!



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From archiver at db.geocrawler.com  Sun Jan 23 18:44:49 2000
From: archiver at db.geocrawler.com (Martin Lilienthal)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Java XML-Parser
Message-ID: <200001231844.KAA21241@www.geocrawler.com>

This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "Martin Lilienthal" <webmaster@webdesign4free.de>
Be sure to reply to that address.

Hi,

we need a stable XML-Parser for Apache 1.3.9. We 
want to generate XML-code with Servlets. That 
code should be converted to HTML on the fly....

(What we want do is called a Three tier 
webapplication... I think...).

What about the Apache xml parser? Is it stable 
enough..?

thanks in advance

Martin Lilienthal


Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive

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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 19:24:03 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:33 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <b4b0f96d0402100499b6@[207.137.31.159]>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEINEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Terje

After reading the patent I may be wrong, but a possible interpretation is
that any HTML browser which is platform independent would fall under this
patent not only WML browsers. Maybe they didn't picked HTML browsers as
target because people wouldn't take them seriously when they are talking
about royalties but to say WAP and WML, something new, this seems a better
pray :-) and it works, they stock value increased.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From martind at netfolder.com  Sun Jan 23 19:24:00 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <009901bf65c9$faa7dc40$0200a8c0@ne.mediaone.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEINEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi John,

John said:
I see no mention of wireless in the patent, yet they appear to only be
applying the patent to WAP. It looks to me like a generic patent on the
concept of stylesheets

Didier replies:
I agree with you. It seems more applied to the concept of style sheet than
to the concept of transport (i.e. WAP). But, they target phones as a revenue
source instead of browsers. Funny, because, according to the patent, it
would be ISP or CSP that can be sued. Now, the big question, can we
demonstrate that before 1994 this concept was existing? If yes, the patent
is obsolete.

I am curious to hear what W3C will say on this.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From terje at in-progress.com  Sun Jan 23 19:30:00 2000
From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <b4b1000f0602100428f8@[207.137.31.159]>

At 9:47 AM 1/23/00, Jon Smirl wrote:
>
>Their stock price has gone from $2 to $40 in the last two months. The rise
>seems to be based on expectations of a large royalty stream from this
>patent.
>
>I see no mention of wireless in the patent, yet they appear to only be
>applying the patent to WAP. It looks to me like a generic patent on the
>concept of stylesheets.

It seems more like the patent is on using object oriented design patterns
to decouple the presentational aspects of a user interface from the
underlying data and application. I'd sell my stock tomorrow if I had any...

-- Terje <terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress

   Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com>
   Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac!



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From terje at in-progress.com  Sun Jan 23 19:42:05 2000
From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <b4b1092f090210044e24@[207.137.31.159]>

At 9:00 PM 1/22/00, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>
>After reading the patent I may be wrong, but a possible interpretation is
>that any HTML browser which is platform independent would fall under this
>patent not only WML browsers.

That is my interpretation as well after skimming through the patent.

>Maybe they didn't picked HTML browsers as
>target because people wouldn't take them seriously when they are talking
>about royalties but to say WAP and WML, something new, this seems a better
>pray :-) and it works, they stock value increased.

They may also think it is easier to get going with the Deep Pockets behind
the recent standards. Then they could always go for HTML browsers and XML
later, citing the original agreements as argument. This assumes they really
have plans for enforcing the patent, not only get PR and trick their stock
to rise.

I suspect they will have a hard time getting much out of this patent. Or at
least, I hope so. Shame on them for applying for the patent in the first
place.


-- Terje <terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress

   Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com>
   Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac!



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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Sun Jan 23 21:18:26 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEINEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <001901bf65e8$2d9ac900$0201a8c0@tomshp>

Didier PH Martin  write:
> After reading the patent I may be wrong, but a possible interpretation is
> that any HTML browser which is platform independent would fall under this
> patent not only WML browsers. Maybe they didn't picked HTML browsers as
> target because people wouldn't take them seriously when they are talking
> about royalties but to say WAP and WML, something new, this seems a better
> pray :-) and it works, they stock value increased.
>

I don't think there is any way the patent can apply to HTML or XML in
general.  It relates specifically to user interface elements that are
specified and implemented an a particular way, with the help of a "toolbox".
I can imagine that it might apply to specific browser elements that the user
interacts with, though.  I'm thinking of form elements.  But you'd have to
read the patent very closely and have a patent lawyer handy to have a hope
of understanding what the patent means in both a technical way and in a
legal way.

Is this a rerun of the GIF situation?  The Geoworks patent seems more
substantial to me, because it claims to apply to a whole design approach.

What about those projects that specify the user interface using XML - some
Linux x-windows programs are using  them, for example - could these be
vulnerable the Geoworks claims?

A patent lawyer might be able to find a way to re-partition the design
appraoch to avoid the literal requirements of the patent.

Tom Passin



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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 24 01:10:06 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000123170054.015032b0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 08:06 PM 1/22/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>If anyone has actually managed to get the DOM working in the
>XML+CSS environment, please let us know how. -Tim
>
>Didier replies:
>With the behavior draft we can do that if a CSS?? (3 maybe) includes a
>@script construct. In this case a full access to the DOM is feasible and
>thus it provides user interaction processing in addition to rendition.

Excuse me... this should not be necessary.  If a browser reads an 
XML document and displays it using CSS, the DOM should be there, it's
a fully documented interface.  No magic or sidestepping should be necessary.

And if a browser doesn't support XML+DOM, it doesn't support XML. -Tim

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 24 01:29:42 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: "Dave Winer"'s message of "Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:06:14 -0800"
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEIIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com> <096201bf65bb$c657b630$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <m3snzouukr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com> writes:

> Haven't seen this discussed here.
> 
> http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,9021,00.html
> 
> WAP is based on XML. A hot standard if there every was one. But there seems
> to be a bug in the system. How will the Internet route around killer
> patents?

There's not much we can do up here in Canada -- as far as I know, most
countries don't allow software patents; however, the U.S. does, and
it's too big a market for the rest of the world to ignore.

The American readers of this list have a big election coming up, and
they have candidates from both parties trying to get support from the
tech industry.  Make software patents an issue now, when you have the
chance, and do the rest of us a big favour.


All the best,


David

-- 
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 24 01:31:14 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: "Dave Winer"'s message of "Sun, 23 Jan 2000 08:58:52 -0800"
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAIEILEMAA.martind@netfolder.com> <099b01bf65c3$20b4a140$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <m3puusuuib.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com> writes:

> Didier, I'm confused too!
> 
> There are more links on this site:
> 
> http://wap.editthispage.com/
> 
> Including a press release from Geoworks.
> 
> Even more confusing -- other members of the WAP Forum have killer patents
> too, notably Phone.Com.
> 
> How does this shake out?
> 
> We're in new territory here.

No we're not -- the same thing happened with P3P (remember that?).


All the best,


David

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From S.Oconnor at tesco.net  Mon Jan 24 02:14:55 2000
From: S.Oconnor at tesco.net (Sean Oconnor)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <002201bf660f$7c3edb60$6c4c8cd4@default>

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 24 03:46:38 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
References: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEIIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com> <096201bf65bb$c657b630$1918ccce@murphy> <m3snzouukr.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <388BCA2C.4AB0@hiwaay.net>

David Megginson wrote:
>  
> The American readers of this list have a big election coming up, and
> they have candidates from both parties trying to get support from the
> tech industry.  Make software patents an issue now, when you have the
> chance, and do the rest of us a big favour.

As an electorate, we aren't good at multiple issues and certainly 
don't have candidates that understand technical ones.  The big 
Internet issue de jour will be taxing it.  Sorry, you'll have 
to wait another five years to bring up software patents. :-)
OTOH, by then, the stock bubble will have burst and we will 
have other worries.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Mon Jan 24 03:46:31 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000123170054.015032b0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388BC9A3.511E@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> And if a browser doesn't support XML+DOM, it doesn't support XML. -Tim

Nice thought but isn't it more like XML+DOM(HTML), XML+DOM(SVG),
XML+DOM(VRML), 
in other words, as far as I can tell watching the Great Children Node
War, 
DOM can be thought of as optional as long as the application language
API 
is complete.  The SAI for VRML according to the last 
vote, must be standalone and must operate identically over both 
current encodings.

So is DOM really required for XML 1.0, or is that a political position 
about implementations?

umm... that subject line looks sort of... alternative.

len



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From terje at in-progress.com  Mon Jan 24 04:12:30 2000
From: terje at in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]>

At 5:28 PM 1/23/00, David Megginson wrote:
>"Dave Winer" <dave@userland.com> writes:
>
>> Haven't seen this discussed here.
>>
>> http://www.thestandard.com/article/display/0,1151,9021,00.html
>>
>> WAP is based on XML. A hot standard if there every was one. But there seems
>> to be a bug in the system. How will the Internet route around killer
>> patents?
>
>There's not much we can do up here in Canada -- as far as I know, most
>countries don't allow software patents; however, the U.S. does, and
>it's too big a market for the rest of the world to ignore.

Not only that, but the US government is working on enforcing their patents
in the rest of the world. So those outside the US have good reasons to be
concerned about what's going on. By being very liberal in granting patents,
the intellectual property balance becomes tilted in USA's favor.

At the same time, progress is stifled as it becomes hard to innovate in
software without infringing on a number of patents. The winners are large
corporations with their in-house patent lawyers and plenty of patents on
file. I doubt that IBM and their equals are too unhappy with the situation,
they just patent as much as they can and swap licenses with others whenever
they need something patented by somebody else.

>The American readers of this list have a big election coming up, and
>they have candidates from both parties trying to get support from the
>tech industry.  Make software patents an issue now, when you have the
>chance, and do the rest of us a big favour.

Problem is that here in the US the politicans are in the pocket of major
corporations. Some of the players in the tech industry might appreciate
being able to file patents for trivial ideas. Perhaps a potential strategy
is to not let those filing trivial patents get away with it.

-- Terje <terje@in-progress.com> | Media Design in*Progress

   Software for Mac Web Professionals at <http://www.in-progress.com>
   Take advantage of XML with Emile, the first XML editor for Mac!



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From paul at qub.com  Mon Jan 24 05:00:49 2000
From: paul at qub.com (Paul Tchistopolskii)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE.  PXSLServlet v 0.2
Message-ID: <012b01bf6627$ce136b00$5df5c13f@PaulTchistopolskii>


Version 0.2 of PXSLServlet is available for download 
from : http://www.pault.com

Version 0.2 allows user to use the power of XSLT 
with data stored in any SQL database. 

When invoked in Advanced mode, PXSLServlet turns 
the SQL data into XML on the fly. In this mode PXSLServlet 
receives 2 parameters: 

-  s2x parameter points to the S2X template 
-  xsl parameter points to the XSLT stylesheet 

S2X template contains the schema of desired XML file. 
Mapping of SQL data into complex hierarhical XML structures 
( not into well-known ordinary 'rowset' / 'row' ) is specified 
with just 1 ( one ) S2X tag ( with 4 parameters ). 

User 'draws' the desired XML and then PXSLServlet fills 
the 'template' with actual data from SQL tables. 

Next versions ( under development ) will contain even more 
sophisticated, convinient and efficient ways for mapping 
SQL into XML and back. 

Rgds.Paul.



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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 24 06:22:09 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000123221027.0150d7a0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 09:40 PM 1/23/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>So is DOM really required for XML 1.0, or is that a political position 
>about implementations?

There is no *point* to supporting XML in the browser if you don't
support the DOM.  If all you want is to display nice-looking stuff
to humans, HTML does an excellent job of that. -Tim


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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Mon Jan 24 07:38:07 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: More Nonce About CORBA 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 18 Jan 2000 23:47:47 EST."
             <004d01bf6238$5e76d540$342a08d1@tomshp> 
Message-ID: <200001240737.AAA02652@localhost.localdomain>

Thomas B. Passin <tpassin@idsonline.com>:

> XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA and easier to get
> going.  There are (I imagine) many, many applications that don't need all
> the CORBA machinery.  Java RMI supposes Java, but how about something for
> non-Java people?

What?  I don't mean to sound nasty, but every few months in this forum there 
is a thread on CORBA vs XML/HTTP and there are inevitable quotes that CORBA is 
"hard to get into" or "heavyweight" or whatever, and it makes me wonder 
whether those speaking have looked at CORBA.

CORBA is much like XML, folks.  It can be as easy to "get into" as 

<tag>you're it</tag>

or as abstruse as W3C schemata or XPath.  It can be as lightweight as SAX or 
as heavyweight as fully-implemented DOM.

And practically, having trained people in distributed programming, I hardly 
agree that XML+HTTP is easier for beginners than CORBA.  CORBA can be used 
with almost complete transparency from most languages, wheras XML/HTTP 
requires a frightening knowledge of formats and libraries.  Maybe XML-RPC is 
easy from UserLand's tools, but I prefer Python, and I know that CORBA for 
Python is much easier than XML-RPC.  My second preference is C++ and I can say 
the same in that case.  Luckily, I'm not crazy for Java, since its CORBA 
binding is an almighty nightmare.  Come to think of it, maybe that's why there 
are so many misocorbists about: there are a lot of Java-heads hereabouts and 
they prolly caught sight of the Java binding...

So to those who think that CORBA is hard, I invite them to actually try the 
simple echo server used as example in so many packages (about ten lines of 
Python code on either the client or server side).  To those who think it's 
heavyweight, I encourage them to test the performance of TAO or ORBit.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
FourThought LLC, IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://FourThought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan 24 08:53:18 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: MODERATION [was: RE: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re:
  Alternatives to the W3C)]
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000123170054.015032b0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <E12CfFC-0008Ma-0B@finch-post-11.mail.demon.net>

At 05:07 PM 1/23/00 -0800, Tim Bray wrote:
>At 08:06 PM 1/22/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:

[discussion about DOM in browsers snipped...]

It will be very useful to those of us trying to abstract this list if the
subjects can relate to the topics being discussed. Many of us get a lot of
messages and look to the subject line to know whether we should look at
them in detail. The present (hopefully not recursive) subject is not useful
- the discussion is (IMO) a useful one about whether browsers should
support the DOM or not.

Direct moderation often kills threads (this may, of course be a good thing
sometimes!), and the members of this list are asked to see if changes of
subject line may be valuable occasionally. In some areas (e.g. SAX2) it is
likely that tens/hundreds of postings can occur without much deviation - in
other areas the subject mutates and so needs re-identifying.

There has so far been a small positive feeling that moderation is
occasionally useful and that the constitution I suggested is a reasonable
start.

This is a good time to remind people that they should NOT quote the list
signature. Some time ago we discussed whether the signature was valuable -
the recent removal and consequent increase in "unsubscribe"s showed that it
was. But one copy per posting - attached by the mailer - is all that is
required!

	P.


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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Mon Jan 24 09:07:21 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA428@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Looks as if they're trying to patent the Model View Controller pattern. Good
luck to them, they'll need it. 

regards,

Bill

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 09:05:20 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
In-Reply-To: "Fabio Arciniegas A."'s message of "Fri, 21 Jan 2000 09:12:05 -0500"
References: <200001211412.JAA17534@trinity.viaduct.com>
Message-ID: <f5b7lgz96xi.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Fabio Arciniegas A." <l-arcini@uniandes.edu.co> writes:

> Hi all.
> During the definition of a schema for instances product of Object
> serialization, I begin to wonder about the implications of derivation
> by restriction in XML: Schema when used with OO apps...
> 
> Is derivation by restriction necessary/desirable? could anyone
> please explain the need behind it a bit? Is D by R a "threat" to
> the conformance[1] principle when using schema to define object
> hierarchies? 
> 
> just oblique thoughts... :) comments?
> 
> Fabio
> 
> 
> [1] loosely put, the traditional conformance principle in OO states: If B
> inherits from A, B can be used wherever A can be used.

That's precisely the intention of restriction.  Any element
information item (EII) which is valid per a type (R) derived by restriction
from a type (T) by construction contains all the required components
of T.  It follows that all such EIIs are valid per T.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
          W3C Fellow 1999--2001, part-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 09:09:20 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?)
In-Reply-To: "Thomas B. Passin"'s message of "Fri, 21 Jan 2000 22:17:04 -0500"
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com> <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP> <006b01bf6487$2ab48760$0201a8c0@tomshp>
Message-ID: <f5b3drn96py.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@idsonline.com> writes:

> <snip/>
> 
> The IETF won't bless an RFC until there are two independent implementations.
> I think this is the right kind of approach.  Surely, Tim B's Lark
> implementation must have been a great help to the XML committee (I'm
> guessing, I don't really know anything about its role).  There's nothing
> like trying to build to a spec to uncover its lack of clarity.

The W3C has recently introduced a status of Candidate Recommendation
which we expect most RECs to pass through, which is specifically
designed for implementation feedback.  XML Schema is certainly
intending to take advantage of this.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
          W3C Fellow 1999--2001, part-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 09:20:16 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Derivation by Restriction
In-Reply-To: Stefan Haustein's message of "Sun, 23 Jan 2000 13:11:14 +0100"
References: <200001221632.LAA01639@trinity.viaduct.com> <388AEFE2.8B8C80A2@trantor.de>
Message-ID: <f5bya9f7rnt.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Stefan Haustein <stefan.haustein@trantor.de> writes:

> This principle would be violated if you "restrict" B 
> that a subelement required in A is not required in B. 
> In fact, that would not be a specialization or 
> restriction but a generalization. If I read the specs 
> right, you are not allowed to widen the [minOccurs...
> maxOccurs] interval, so the problem you address seems 
> not exist.

This analysis is correct.

ht
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
          W3C Fellow 1999--2001, part-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net  Mon Jan 24 10:46:31 2000
From: rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net (Rahul Chugh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F800225@INDUS>


Dear Sir
I am on a project which needs parsing of DTD.
i am in need of following parsers libraries either in java or c++(header
files) :-

1)to check the validity of DTD
2)to check he validity of XML
3)to extract a DTD from an well formed XML File
4)to Check wether its  a inline DTD or an EXTERNAL DTD
please help me out or send me the header files on c++, or links to these
libraries
as i am in great need of theses
hoping for a positive reply
RAHUL CHUGH
QUARK Media House (India) Ltd.
52 Industrial Area Phase 2,
Chandigarh - 160002 (INDIA)
*	Phone : (091) - (172) - 658373/4/5 Ext. : 293
*	Fax : (091) - (172)- 658377
*	email:- rchugh@quark.stpm.soft.net
*	http://www.quark.com






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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Mon Jan 24 13:33:44 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: MODERATION [was: RE: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)]
References: <E12CfFC-0008Ma-0B@finch-post-11.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <003c01bf6670$6fdeb5a0$0201a8c0@tomshp>

Peter Murray-Rust wrote:

<snip/>
> This is a good time to remind people that they should NOT quote the list
> signature. Some time ago we discussed whether the signature was valuable -
> the recent removal and consequent increase in "unsubscribe"s showed that
it
> was. But one copy per posting - attached by the mailer - is all that is
> required!
>

Could I add for people to make sure that the list name not appear in both
the "to" and the "cc" fields?  There are quite a few messages like that, and
if you reply it might go to the wrong place, or get duplicated (I've done it
too).  There have been a lot of duplications, it seems.

Tom Passin


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From tmaloney at ixl.com  Mon Jan 24 13:31:18 2000
From: tmaloney at ixl.com (tmaloney@ixl.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: how do you get off this list?
Message-ID: <D09A1A0FB7FDD211A92D00805FBBD8A180BB02@exchange.clt.ixl.com>

i have been trying and trying to unsubscribe, and they say my address is not
listed with their servers. yet i keep getting the emails.

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Mon Jan 24 13:25:40 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: More Nonce About CORBA 
References: <200001240737.AAA02652@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <002101bf666f$504d27e0$0201a8c0@tomshp>

<uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com> wrote

> Thomas B. Passin <tpassin@idsonline.com>:
>
> > XML (and, say, XML-RPC) is much lighter-weight than CORBA and easier to
get
> > going.  There are (I imagine) many, many applications that don't need
all
> > the CORBA machinery.  Java RMI supposes Java, but how about something
for
> > non-Java people?
>
> What?  I don't mean to sound nasty, but every few months in this forum
there
> is a thread on CORBA vs XML/HTTP and there are inevitable quotes that
CORBA is
> "hard to get into" or "heavyweight" or whatever, and it makes me wonder
> whether those speaking have looked at CORBA.
>

Ok, friends, I surrender!  And it's true, I spoke as one with little
practical experience.  What I was thinking was that, based on things I had
read, it seemed that there was lot of machinery - a lot of pieces that did
different things - and that both ends of the relationship had to understand
each other a lot more intimately than might be the case with xml.  But I've
got to agree that the xml area has gotten very complex itself.

Thanks to all for setting me straight.

Tom Passin

> CORBA is much like XML, folks.  It can be as easy to "get into" as
>
> <tag>you're it</tag>
>
> or as abstruse as W3C schemata or XPath.  It can be as lightweight as SAX
or
> as heavyweight as fully-implemented DOM.
>
> And practically, having trained people in distributed programming, I
hardly
> agree that XML+HTTP is easier for beginners than CORBA.  CORBA can be used
> with almost complete transparency from most languages, wheras XML/HTTP
> requires a frightening knowledge of formats and libraries.  Maybe XML-RPC
is
> easy from UserLand's tools, but I prefer Python, and I know that CORBA for
> Python is much easier than XML-RPC.  My second preference is C++ and I can
say
> the same in that case.  Luckily, I'm not crazy for Java, since its CORBA
> binding is an almighty nightmare.  Come to think of it, maybe that's why
there
> are so many misocorbists about: there are a lot of Java-heads hereabouts
and
> they prolly caught sight of the Java binding...
>
> So to those who think that CORBA is hard, I invite them to actually try
the
> simple echo server used as example in so many packages (about ten lines of
> Python code on either the client or server side).  To those who think it's
> heavyweight, I encourage them to test the performance of TAO or ORBit.
>
>


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Mon Jan 24 13:27:34 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding impenetrable language; reconsider?)
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com> <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP> <006b01bf6487$2ab48760$0201a8c0@tomshp> <f5b3drn96py.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <002e01bf666f$9dd2bca0$0201a8c0@tomshp>

Thanks, Henry and Tim, for responding to my post.  I'm very happy to hear
about this advance.

Tom Passin

Henry S. Thompson  wrote:

> "Thomas B. Passin" <tpassin@idsonline.com> writes:
>
> > <snip/>
> >
> > The IETF won't bless an RFC until there are two independent
implementations.
> > I think this is the right kind of approach.  Surely, Tim B's Lark
> > implementation must have been a great help to the XML committee (I'm
> > guessing, I don't really know anything about its role).  There's nothing
> > like trying to build to a spec to uncover its lack of clarity.
>
> The W3C has recently introduced a status of Candidate Recommendation
> which we expect most RECs to pass through, which is specifically
> designed for implementation feedback.  XML Schema is certainly
> intending to take advantage of this.
>



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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 24 13:34:59 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:34 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: terje@in-progress.com's message of "Sun, 23 Jan 2000 20:15:29 -0800"
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]>
Message-ID: <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

terje@in-progress.com (Terje Norderhaug) writes:

> Problem is that here in the US the politicans are in the pocket of
> major corporations. Some of the players in the tech industry might
> appreciate being able to file patents for trivial ideas. Perhaps a
> potential strategy is to not let those filing trivial patents get
> away with it.

I remember that a long time ago Apple tried to enforce a patent on
overlapping windows against Digital (GEM) and then Microsoft
(Windows), much to the amusement of Xerox, I'd imagine.  More
recently, a few of the more prominent Web companies (like Amazon) have
squandered some of their expensively-bought goodwill by trying to play
the software-patent game.

In general, though, are there any recent examples of the big tech
companies (i.e. Microsoft, IBM, Sun, etc.) trying to enforce a
software patent?  I've always thought of software patents as a
little-person thing, like spurious law suits or domain-name squatting
-- in other words, something the the major U.S. corporations would
like to see disappear.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From vilya at nag.co.uk  Mon Jan 24 14:32:04 2000
From: vilya at nag.co.uk (Vilya Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk>

David Megginson wrote:
> In general, though, are there any recent examples of the big tech
> companies (i.e. Microsoft, IBM, Sun, etc.) trying to enforce a
> software patent?

The obvious example that springs to mind is Unisys and their patent on a
particular compression technique (was it LZW compression?). The patent
covered compressed GIF files, among other things, and was the cause of
much consternation for the global graphics community. Unisys have been
fairly active about enforcing the patent too, I believe.

An interesting point though, is the response that this generated: the
enforcement of the patent on GIF files led directly to the development of
the (superior) public domain PNG file format, which is slowly but surely
replacing GIF as one of the formats of choice for images on the web. I
think there's probably a lesson in that somewhere...

Vil.
-- 
Vilya Harvey  <vilya@nag.co.uk>    Wilkinson House  Mob: +44  961 106 505
Computational Mathematics Group   Jordan Hill Road   Wk: +44 1865 511 245
NAG Limited                    Oxford  UK  OX2 8DR  Fax: +44 1865 311 205

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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 24 14:55:20 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000123170054.015032b0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAAEJLEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Tim,

Tim said:
Excuse me... this should not be necessary.  If a browser reads an
XML document and displays it using CSS, the DOM should be there, it's
a fully documented interface.  No magic or sidestepping should be necessary.

And if a browser doesn't support XML+DOM, it doesn't support XML. -Tim

Didier replies:
Tim, I read two times your answer and I am still puzzled. I do not
understand it.

Q: Do you imply that the DOM is not present for any XML document in IE5? A:
(my answer) no the DOM is present in IE5. The problem if the document is
rendered with CSS is that you do not have access to the DOM to create
interactivity. to do so, you need the DOM and scripts. Behaviors are
targeted for this usage.

Q: what, precisely, do you mean by "if a browser doesn't support XML+DOM, it
doesn't support XML". C: Actually, the IE5 browser support the DOM and can
parse XML and render it with either CSS or an archaic version of XSL. The
DOM, when used with JavaScript is exactly like it is recommended by the W3C
(since the only script language included in the recommendation is
JavaScript. Therefore, this is the only language we can know for sure if it
is or not compliant)

Can you be more precise, I do not understand what you mean.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Mon Jan 24 14:56:35 2000
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Clearer W3C Specs (was Re: XML Information Set is seeding imp
	enetrable language; reconsider?)
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F278439@MDYNYCMSX1>

>The W3C has recently introduced a status of Candidate Recommendation
>which we expect most RECs to pass through, which is specifically
>designed for implementation feedback.  XML Schema is certainly
>intending to take advantage of this.

I was going to ask "so what exactly is Candidate Recommendation status?" but
decided to check w3.org first, and I found
http://www.w3.org/Consortium/Process/Process-19991111/tr.html#RecsCR. I
recommend it (no pun intended).

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob           <bob@  
snee.com>  "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Mon Jan 24 15:00:31 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: MODERATION, etc.
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC0290@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

I think the policy you've been following for the past year has worked pretty
well.  Although we've had discussions that got off-topic, and went on a bit
too long, they've always eventually ended.  So while we don't always
self-moderate ourselves *quickly*, we do eventually get it done.  :-)

(It sometimes seems to me like the "unsubscribe" emails tend to come more
frequently when one of these drawn-out discussions is going on.  Is that
just my imagination?  I know currently the OASIS move is going on, but my
feeble recollection seems to tell me it's happened during other discussions
too...)

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From dwshin at nlm.nih.gov  Mon Jan 24 15:00:58 2000
From: dwshin at nlm.nih.gov (Dongwook Shin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Java XML-Parser
References: <200001231844.KAA21241@www.geocrawler.com>
Message-ID: <388C649F.AF30A778@nlm.nih.gov>


I use IBM XML parser for Java. It works well with Apache and
looks stable. The goal you want to do looks similar to
that I have done. See:
http://dlb2.nlm.nih.gov/~dwshin/xrs.html

It may be of help to you.

Dongwook

Martin Lilienthal wrote:

> This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "Martin Lilienthal" <webmaster@webdesign4free.de>
> Be sure to reply to that address.
>
> Hi,
>
> we need a stable XML-Parser for Apache 1.3.9. We
> want to generate XML-code with Servlets. That
> code should be converted to HTML on the fly....
>
> (What we want do is called a Three tier
> webapplication... I think...).
>
> What about the Apache xml parser? Is it stable
> enough..?
>
> thanks in advance
>
> Martin Lilienthal
>
> Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
>
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.

--
Dongwook Shin
Visiting Scholar
Lister Hill National Center for Biomedical Communications
National Library of Medicine,
8600 Rockville Pike Bethesda 20894, MD
E-mail: dwshin@nlm.nih.gov
Tel: (301) 435-3257
FAX: (301) 480-3035
URL: http://dlb2.nlm.nih.gov/~dwshin



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From rhanson at blast.net  Mon Jan 24 15:02:02 2000
From: rhanson at blast.net (Robert Hanson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000123221027.0150d7a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <02ff01bf667a$cc602700$0cb919ce@INTERNETDEPT>

Wow, I don't know if I can disagree enough with that.  What if the goal isn't
to support XML in the browser, but instead is used for indexing, and other
back-end tasks?  And what if this same information is also accessible through
a browser with CSS?

For instance, we have in in-house knowledge base.  This knowledge base
contains information that needs to be searchable by perhaps a part number.
Parts of this knowledge base also include manuals that are intended for
distribution as printed material (using XSLT).  Other parts are indexes
generated by a back end application which does use DOM.  And besides that, the
support technician needs access to this information... so with XML and CSS in
the browser, I am all set.  Why do I need DOM support in my browser for to do
all of this?

I am not disagreeing that DOM support will be needed in the browser for lots
of applications, but I disagree that there is no point to supporting XML
without DOM.

Robert

----- Original Message -----
From: Tim Bray <tbray@textuality.com>


> At 09:40 PM 1/23/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >So is DOM really required for XML 1.0, or is that a political position
> >about implementations?
>
> There is no *point* to supporting XML in the browser if you don't
> support the DOM.  If all you want is to display nice-looking stuff
> to humans, HTML does an excellent job of that. -Tim



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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 15:05:32 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
Message-ID: <86hpnm$6ic$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

How is an attribute containing a character reference to to whitespace
character (other than space) supposed to be normalised?

Section 3.3.3 seems to me to say that character references are not
subject to the translation to #x20 - the four bulleted points are
an exhaustive disjunction.

The errata (http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata) re-writes this
section but does not appear to change it in this respect.

However the Oasis test suite, in tests sa02 and not-sa02, requires
that they are replaced with spaces.

Which is correct?

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From devarapalli at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 24 15:24:37 2000
From: devarapalli at hotmail.com (Muralidhar Devarapalli)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Java XML-Parser
Message-ID: <20000124152357.39046.qmail@hotmail.com>

You can use sun's XML parser to parse XML documents. Have a look at 
http://www.developerlife.com
You can find some useful tutorials here. You can go for either SAX or DOM 
parser depending on your requirements.
if you want to convert XML into HTML, use stylesheet processor. Have a look 
at Apache's Xerces and Xalan projects( http://xml.apache.org )

- Murali Devarapalli



>From: "Martin Lilienthal" <archiver@db.geocrawler.com>
>Reply-To: "Martin Lilienthal" <archiver@db.geocrawler.com>
>To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Subject: Java XML-Parser
>Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2000 10:44:37 -0800
>
>This message was sent from Geocrawler.com by "Martin Lilienthal" 
><webmaster@webdesign4free.de>
>Be sure to reply to that address.
>
>Hi,
>
>we need a stable XML-Parser for Apache 1.3.9. We
>want to generate XML-code with Servlets. That
>code should be converted to HTML on the fly....
>
>(What we want do is called a Three tier
>webapplication... I think...).
>
>What about the Apache xml parser? Is it stable
>enough..?
>
>thanks in advance
>
>Martin Lilienthal
>
>
>Geocrawler.com - The Knowledge Archive
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 
>981-02-3594-1
>Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
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>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer 
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>

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From klarlund at research.att.com  Mon Jan 24 15:49:28 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
Message-ID: <yqz2zotva2rw.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>


XML should be about a universal and simple model of trees based on the
linear syntax of XML 1.0, right?  Well, it's not.  I hope to generate
a discussion of how the current multitude of models can be unified.
This message is long, reflecting the enormity of the confusion that's
being sown.  And, I want to convince everybody who's interested that
it'll be a conspicuous failure not to unify terminology and models;
conversely, I believe that at a little price, involving a small amount
of back-pedaling, XML could get an attractive and universal model.
Time is running out, however.

Consider the following five W3C contributions to the question of what
tree an XML document represents:

- LOST CHILDREN (DOM2):

  "Attr nodes are not actually child nodes of the element they
  describe, the DOM does not consider them part of the document tree"

  So, attribute nodes are attached to their element node, but the
  element node is not a parent.  The document tree doesn't represent
  the document (but presumably, the "document hierarchy" does).

- LOSING YOUR CHILDHOOD (XPATH): 
 
  "The element is the parent of each of these attribute nodes, but an
  attribute node is not a child of its parent element"

  So, I'm not a child of my parent (if I am an attribute
  node). Please, don't say you meant that!
 
- THE TONGUE TWISTER (INFOSET):

  Tree = XML Information Set
  Node = XML Information Item

  This abstract model is the promising one.  Modulo the unhelpful
  terminology, it's exactly the simple tree model that's so needed.
  Its nodes are not called nodes and its children are not called
  children, because apparently the authors believe that would make the
  confusion even more explicit.

- THE NARROW VIEW (XML 1.0):

  "for each non-root element C in the document, there is one other
  element P in the document such that C is in the content of P, but is
  not in the content of any other element that is in the content of
  P. P is referred to as the parent of C, and C as a child of P."

  So, according to XML 1.0, only children that are elements are in
  fact children.

- THE PC VIEW (XML Schema):

  "The shipDate element daughter of PurchaseOrderType is..."

  The term daughter is not defined in the Schema draft.

This is a big mess.  I'll outline a modest simplification that affects
several of the (draft) recommendations with the result that there is
one model and one terminology.  But before that, I'll give more
examples to show some adverse effects of the lack of consistency among
the tree models.  At the end, I'll show how some of the examples
appear after the simplification.  My simplification is certainly not
the only way to go about these fundamental problems, but I hope that
they'll show that they are solvable.

1. TEXT AND MARKUP CONFUSION

In XPATH and DOM, text denotes a maximum continuous sequence of
characters (with no tags), but in XML 1.0 a very different explanation
is provided:

  "Text consists of intermingled character data and markup", 

where markup is defined as

   "Markup takes the form of start-tags, end-tags, empty-element tags,
    entity references, character references, comments, CDATA section
    delimiters, document type declarations, and processing
    instructions."

INFOSET does not take a position, but introduces a finer-grained model,
where individual characters are nodes in the tree representation.

2. XPATH/XSLT NODE CONFUSION

- Apparently, node means node, but not quite in XLST:
  
  "node() matches any node other than an attribute node and the root node"  (2)

- and the contrary opinon is offered in XPATH:

  "A node test node() is true for any node of any type whatsoever" 

In fact, there is not a technical inconsistency.  There is an
intricate explanation: when node() is used as a pattern, it is assumed
that the pattern applies to children (the ones that are not
attributes), since "child" is the default axis.  So to include
attribute nodes one has to write "@* | node ()".  The "@" overrides
the default axis, but node() doesn't.  This is pretty wild.  I wrote a
long XSLT program in October and in January I don't understand even
the patterns I used before spending 20 minutes re-reading XPATH and
XSLT.

3. MORE MARKUP AND TEXT CONFUSION

In DOM, we read

   "If there is no markup inside an element's content, the text is   (3)
    contained in a single object implementing the Text interface that
    is the only child of the element."

But, the sentence that follows says:

   "If there is markup, it is parsed into the information items    (3')
    (elements, comments, etc.) and Text nodes that form the list of
    children of the element."

So, in this sentence, markup now means markup in the XML 1.0 sense +
character data.  Also, since information items, in fact, include the
character data, the sentence says that both the fine-grained character
information items and some corresponding Text nodes somehow are
included in the list of children.

4. ROOT OR DOCUMENT CONFUSION

Lets look at XML 1.0 again: "There is exactly one element, called the
root, or document element, no part of which appears in the content of
any other element."  Now, the root element node is a child of the root
node according to (DOM, XPATH)!  This consequence would be formulated
in INFOSET speak as the prose:

  A reference to the document element information item is contained in
  the children list of the document information item.  (4)

(John, if you read this, please correct me if I'm wrong.)

5. THE TRANSLATION OF INFOSET INTO CONVENTIONAL TERMINOLOGY

In XPATH, a whole section is dedicated to describing a natural data
model, even though it substantially replicates INFOSET.  Since the
authors of XPATH wisely use familiar concepts, they've been obliged to
include tautoligisms:

  "An element node comes from an element information item. The
   children of an element node come from the children and children -
   comments properties. The attributes of an element node come from
   the attributes property."

And who does that help?

THE PROPOSAL

There are three main kinds of nodes: root nodes, property nodes, and
content nodes.  They form a hierarchy of node concepts as follows:

root node

property nodes: 
  attribute node
  notation node
  namespace declaration node

content nodes: 
  cdata nodes: 
    CDSect node  (for CDATA sections)
    text node 
  markup nodes:
    element node 
    comment node 
    entity node 
    PI node

This terminology seems to be rather consistent with XML 1.0 except
that we use "text" in the sense found in DOM and XPATH and that
"child" is not just applied to elements, but all nodes that are
immediate descendants.  By an official resolution, this difference
should be made clear.

A root node is the document information item of INFOSET or the
Document interface of DOM or the root node of XPATH.  The root node
has exactly one element child, which is called the document node,
since it corresponds to the document element of XML 1.0.  By 
resolution, the term "root element" in XML 1.0 is banished.

Now, define the *text view* of the XML tree as the tree gotten by
grouping together maximum consecutive sequences of text and CDSect
nodes into one text node.
 
That's all.

(I am omitting document declarations from this discussion; they are
less important, although they need a model, too.)


WHAT ARE THE REPERCUSSIONS?

INFOSET will become XML-TREE, and it will be the enjoyable gold
standard that defines the XPATH data model and for which DOM is the
API---all without notational and conceptual confusion. 

For example, (4) becomes

  "The document node is a child of the root node."

The XPATH data model *is* the text view of the XML tree.
But now XPATH and XSLT can make use of additional predicates:

  content() is the pattern that matches any content node

That solves (2).  In particular, an erratum could be issued that would
get rid of the node() pattern puzzle.  (Even without, future good
practice would dictate that content() be used in most situations where
node() is now used).  The erratum would further specify that the
"child" axis will now be called the "content" axis.

For DOM, there will be some changes that I hope people would find
entirely innocent: for example, the introduction of the DOM structure
model in section 1.1.1:

  "The DOM presents documents as a hierarchy of Node objects that also
  implement other, more specialized interfaces. Some types of nodes
  may have child nodes of various types, and others are leaf nodes
  that cannot have anything below them in the document structure. The
  node types, and which node types they may have as children, are as
  follows: "

could be recast:

  "The DOM presents documents as Node objects organized according to
   the XML Tree model.  Some nodes also implement other, more
   specialized interfaces.  An element node may have child nodes of
   various types that represent content, attributes, and namespace
   declarations.  The node types, and which kinds of node types their
   content children may have, are as follows:"

So this is not a revolution!  They're would be very minor changes to
the IDL specification as well:

interface Node {
  // NodeType
  ...
  readonly attribute Node             parentNode;
  readonly attribute NodeList         childNodes;
  readonly attribute Node             firstChild;
  readonly attribute Node             lastChild;
  ...}

becomes

interface Node {
  // NodeType
  ...
  readonly attribute Node             parentNode;
  readonly attribute NodeList         contentNodes;
  readonly attribute Node             firstContentChild;
  readonly attribute Node             lastContentChild;
  ...},

and the ownerElement can now be removed from

interface Attr : Node {
  readonly attribute DOMString        name;
  readonly attribute boolean          specified;
           attribute DOMString        value;
                                        // raises(DOMException) on setting

  // Introduced in DOM Level 2:
  readonly attribute Element          ownerElement;
};

since an attribute node has a parent, which the ownerElement was
supposed to denote. 

And (3) and (3') would simply become

  "The contentNodes list contains the content nodes of the element."

For XML Schema, there would be significant simplifications in
terminology.

Simpletons, are you still there?

/Nils


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From aray at q2.net  Mon Jan 24 16:47:48 2000
From: aray at q2.net (Arjun Ray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
In-Reply-To: <86hpnm$6ic$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241128570.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>



On 24 Jan 2000, Richard Tobin wrote:

> Section 3.3.3 seems to me to say that character references are not
> subject to the translation to #x20 [...] 
> The errata (http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata) re-writes this
> section but does not appear to change it in this respect.
> 
> However the Oasis test suite, in tests sa02 and not-sa02, requires
> that they are replaced with spaces.
> 
> Which is correct?

If the intent is to do it the SGML way, then 3.3.3 is correct.  In fact, I
think 3.3.3 (as clarified in the errata) is the best explanation I've seen
of this!:-)

The SGML gotcha here has to do with the 'SEPCHAR' category.  A numeric
character reference is always character data at the point it occurs, and
so doesn't get *parsed* as SEPCHAR (and thus thereafter normalized for
non-CDATA declared values.)

Try this file with nsgmls:

===
<!DOCTYPE foo [
  <!ELEMENT foo - - (#PCDATA) >
  <!ATTLIST foo
            bar   CDATA #IMPLIED
            baz   NAMES #IMPLIED
            >
]>
<foo bar="blah1&#10;blah2" baz="grape&#10;banana">...</foo>
===

This won't validate.  So

a) Replace '&#10;'  with '&#RE;'.  Now, it will validate. (because RE is a
   SEPCHAR when parsed.)
 
b) Replace with '&lf;'  and add a declaration in the DTD

    <!ENTITY lf  "&#10;" >

  This, too, will validate (because the character reference substitution
  occurs when the entity declaration is *parsed*, and so is a regular
  literal whitespace character by the time the entity reference is used.)

c) Change the entity declaration to 

    <!ENTITY lf  CDATA "&#10;" >

and now, it won't validate any more. (because the recursive parsing rule
has been short-circuited.)

d) Repeat (b) and (c) with 'RE' for '10' in the entity declaration.  Same
difference in results. 

Ain't this fun?;)


Arjun



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From norman at astro.gla.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 17:04:01 2000
From: norman at astro.gla.ac.uk (Norman Gray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Auxiliary parses/subdocuments in XML
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241650060.24193-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>


Greetings,

How is one supposed to manage subdocuments in XML, since reference to
entities with notation XML appears to be forbidden by the XML standard?

I'm working on converting to XML an SGML application which uses
subdocuments fairly extensively.  The application doesn't use these
via a general entity reference, but instead via an attribute with an
ENTITY type -- that is, `out of context', through an auxiliary parse.

Now, XML doesn't have SUBDOCs, but it does have the ENTITY attribute type
(sect. 4.4), plus NDATA entities, and the statement (4.4.6) that unparsed
entities in this context should have their entity and notation sysids
passed on to the application.  Add to this James Clark's remark in his
`SGML and XML' note <http://www.w3.org/TR/NOTE-sgml-xml> which says
`Subdocument entities.  These could be converted into NDATA entities
with a notation that indicates that they are SGML or XML'.  Add further,
miscellaneous chatter on the archive of this and other lists which seems
to imply the same thing, and there seems to be no problem.

However: the definition of `unparsed entity' at the beginning of
section 4 of the XML spec states that an unparsed entity's contents
may not be XML.  This means that the following:

<?XML version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE simple [
<!ELEMENT simple (xref)+>
<!ELEMENT xref   EMPTY>
<!ATTLIST xref
	doc ENTITY #REQUIRED
	>
<!NOTATION XML SYSTEM>
<!ENTITY s2 SYSTEM 'simple2.xml' NDATA XML>
]>
<simple>
<xref doc="s2"/>
</simple>

is valid according to nsgmls, but appears to violate the extra-syntactic
constraint in the XML spec.

Am I reading this correctly?  I can see that there's an echo here of
SGML's ban (8879, 7.9.4.3) on such a target entity being an SGML text
entity (as opposed to an SGML subdocument), but that ban seems
concerned with a slightly different issue[1].  However, it does seem to
have very effectively frustrated the sort of information-gathering
auxiliary parse I want to do here.

If I am reading this correctly, is there an obvious best way to
proceed?  `Use XLink' would be an answer, I suppose, but seems a rather
long way about things; also, I'd rather be sure I _have_ to rule out
what has hitherto worked, before starting again with alternatives.

[ Apologies if anyone's already seen this question on comp.text.xml --
I posted it there before twigging that here was probably a better place,
and that anyone reading xml-dev was unlikely to have enough spare time
to read both. ]

All the best,

Norman

[1] The thread containing 
    http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-sgml-wg/1996Sep/0418.html
    seems relevant here.
-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Gray                        http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Gray                        http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/
Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK     norman@astro.gla.ac.uk


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 24 17:06:31 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: FW: Arrgh! - FW: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0,
  DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
Message-ID: <200001241706.MAA28650@hesketh.net>

[This is not my own posting - I'm forwarding this for someone who's stuck
off the list until the OASIS transfer is complete.]

From: Kevin Williams <Kevin.Williams@ultraprise.com>

>Here are the issues I have with Nils' comments:
>
>1. The Infoset is not the same as the DOM. The Infoset does not imply a tree
>structure. The Infoset should never imply a tree structure, as it's intended
>to describe the behavior of non-node-oriented processors such as SAX.
>2. Attributes are different than other nodes. An attribute by itself is
>meaningless - it needs to be associated with an element. Attributes are
>unordered. I believe the W3C made the right call by making attributes not
>children of the elements with which they are associated.
>3. The term "information item" is a necessary one because of the overuse of
>other synonyms (such as element, attribute, and so on) in the DOM
>specifications. Information items are none of these.
>4. Nils appears to be obsessed with terminology in the XML 1.0
>specification, which is significantly out of date at this point. The newer
>drafts should be taken as the "official" W3C position - there's just not
>anyone providing errata to the original document to keep it in line. For
>example, the current way of thinking says that there's a Document node,
>which must have exactly one Element child node. XML 1.0 says something
>slightly different, but that's not important.
>
>While I agree that the W3C specifications can go a little heavy on the
>jargon, I think that the way the specifications are constructed is necessary
>and correct. The last thing we need is to see all of these different specs
>munged together into one "unified" specification that limits the available
>functionality of XML as it exists today. Perhaps Nils would be happier with
>SML, with no pesky attributes to worry about...
>
>- Kevin
>
>Kevin Williams
>Ultraprise Corporation (www.ultraprise.com)
>Co-author, _Professional XML_ (Wrox Press)

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From mah at oxiasoft.com  Mon Jan 24 17:28:52 2000
From: mah at oxiasoft.com (Hemissi Maher)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
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From KenNorth at email.msn.com  Mon Jan 24 17:32:28 2000
From: KenNorth at email.msn.com (KenNorth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <003901bf6690$d8ccfde0$0b00a8c0@grissom>

> In general, though, are there any recent examples of the big tech
> companies (i.e. Microsoft, IBM, Sun, etc.) trying to enforce a
> software patent?  I've always thought of software patents as a
> little-person thing, like spurious law suits or domain-name squatting
> -- in other words, something the the major U.S. corporations would
> like to see disappear.

Unisys has been enforcing their patent on LZW encoding (compression). which
has caused some Web sites to drop GIF images.




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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 18:14:06 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Auxiliary parses/subdocuments in XML
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241650060.24193-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <86i4p8$dja$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241650060.24193-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>,
Norman Gray <norman@astro.gla.ac.uk> wrote:

>However: the definition of `unparsed entity' at the beginning of
>section 4 of the XML spec states that an unparsed entity's contents
>may not be XML.

Fortunately you have chosen the unintended meaning of the ambiguous
wording.  When it says "may not be XML" it means "may be not XML".
This is clarified in the errata:

 E25 Clarification Source: minutes XML-Syntax 1999-02-24 E30

 Section 4 
  Amend the first sentence of the third paragraph to read: "An
  unparsed entity is a resource whose contents may or may not be text,
  and if text, may be other than XML."

 Rationale: 
  The original text could be interpreted as saying that unparsed
  entities which are text can't be XML, which is wrong.

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 24 18:33:29 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: What's this XML stuff anyway?  (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000123221027.0150d7a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388C9AE4.FABFCFD@pacbell.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 09:40 PM 1/23/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >So is DOM really required for XML 1.0, or is that a political position
> >about implementations?

No and yes, respectively.  The XML spec defines XML.


> There is no *point* to supporting XML in the browser if you don't
> support the DOM.  If all you want is to display nice-looking stuff
> to humans, HTML does an excellent job of that. -Tim

So does XML with a stylesheet, such as CSS (pref. CSS1 + CSS2/tables),
or XSLT + XSL-FO.  (Or XSLT + XHTML/CSS.)  Seems to me that the clear
separation of content (XML) and presentation (stylesheet) is a great
example of a "point" ... with clear advantages over each of the broken
flavors of HTML one must otherwise choose from.

There are points to having DOM, but they're not just "browsing".  DOM
certainly implies some programming environment.  Many of us would like
it not to be JavaScript (with its designed-in security holes).

It's important to distinguish between browser-as-browser, where XML
plus a stylesheet-based rendering engine is fine, and a programming
environment.  The latter certainly benefits from something like DOM;
if the former used it, you couldn't tell.

- Dave

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From norman at astro.gla.ac.uk  Mon Jan 24 18:40:05 2000
From: norman at astro.gla.ac.uk (Norman Gray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Auxiliary parses/subdocuments in XML
In-Reply-To: <86i4p8$dja$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241838540.24193-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>


Greetings,

On 24 Jan 2000, Richard Tobin wrote:

> In article <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241650060.24193-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>,
> Norman Gray <norman@astro.gla.ac.uk> wrote:
> 
> >However: the definition of `unparsed entity' at the beginning of
> >section 4 of the XML spec states that an unparsed entity's contents
> >may not be XML.
> 
> Fortunately you have chosen the unintended meaning of the ambiguous
> wording.  When it says "may not be XML" it means "may be not XML".
> This is clarified in the errata:

Phew!  Thanks to Richard and others who responded.

Norman

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Gray                        http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/
Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK     norman@astro.gla.ac.uk


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From dforman at turnstone.com  Mon Jan 24 18:52:06 2000
From: dforman at turnstone.com (Doug Forman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Beginner question - What is a schema?
Message-ID: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063D@mail.turnstone.com>

I understood how to write html, so learning the syntax of xml was quite
easy.  
However, there are some basic concepts I'm still trying to get a feel for.

Can anybody give me a good definition of what is a schema, and how it
applies to xml?
 
My understanding is that it is a logical template for a heirarchical
database; and any xml document is based on some schema.


Thanks

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From dforman at turnstone.com  Mon Jan 24 19:00:57 2000
From: dforman at turnstone.com (Doug Forman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: expat  tree-builder (dom)
Message-ID: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063E@mail.turnstone.com>

I've been experimenting with the jclark's expat parser.  I compiled it on
linux, and it works just great.  However, finding tags and data by
implementing the callback functions is cumbersome.  
Has anybody written code that uses the expat callback's in such a way as to
build a hierarchical tree, maybe a DOM, that can be traversed?  A full DOM
implementation wouldn't be necessary for my purposes, just enough to
traverse branches and find leafs.



Thanks,
Doug Forman

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From digitome at iol.ie  Mon Jan 24 19:28:09 2000
From: digitome at iol.ie (Sean Mc Grath)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: expat  tree-builder (dom)
In-Reply-To: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063E@mail.turnstone.com>
Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20000124191314.00955710@gpo.iol.ie>

At 11:00 24/01/00 -0800, you wrote:
>I've been experimenting with the jclark's expat parser.  I compiled it on
>linux, and it works just great.  However, finding tags and data by
>implementing the callback functions is cumbersome.  
>Has anybody written code that uses the expat callback's in such a way as to
>build a hierarchical tree, maybe a DOM, that can be traversed?  A full DOM
>implementation wouldn't be necessary for my purposes, just enough to
>traverse branches and find leafs.
>
Try http://www.pyxie.org

regards,

http://www.pyxie.org - an Open Source XML Processing library for Python


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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 24 20:35:58 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: "KenNorth"'s message of "Mon, 24 Jan 2000 09:31:23 -0800"
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <003901bf6690$d8ccfde0$0b00a8c0@grissom>
Message-ID: <m3puur6wfc.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

"KenNorth" <KenNorth@email.msn.com> writes:

> > In general, though, are there any recent examples of the big tech
> > companies (i.e. Microsoft, IBM, Sun, etc.) trying to enforce a
> > software patent?  I've always thought of software patents as a
> > little-person thing, like spurious law suits or domain-name squatting
> > -- in other words, something the the major U.S. corporations would
> > like to see disappear.
> 
> Unisys has been enforcing their patent on LZW encoding (compression). which
> has caused some Web sites to drop GIF images.

Perhaps unfairly, I wasn't counting Unisys as big any more.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From martind at netfolder.com  Mon Jan 24 21:59:14 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Portal experiment
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBACEKJEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

I made an experiment with xlinks and XSLT.

The XML document uses recursive topic elements. Each topic element has the
same property (xlink:type) by not the same xlink:type value. If a topic
contains other topics, it takes the xlink:type="extended" value. If the
topic is an link to a resource, then its xlink:type attribute takes the
value "locator". I have found that to encode links as found in portal the
xlink constructs reduce the number of elements required compared to other
kind of encoding like for instance RDF. Also, the main difference is that
contrary to RDF encoding, it uses links and then these links can be
interpreted by xlink engine. You'll see with the example, that you can
create your own xlink engine with XML to DHTML transformation using XSLT.

The Portal document using xlink can be accessed with the following address:
http://www.netfolder.com/XML/topic.xml?query="news". The XML server is not
yet sophisticated enough to recognize the user agent type and adapt to it
(this is my next step). When that will be the case, the server will
recognize the user agent XML rendition capabilities and do the
transformation server side for non-xml browsers (i.e. HTML browsers).
However, if you have IE5, the xml document can be rendered. to do so, I had
to do some minor modifications to the style sheet like removing the
<xsl:output> element and changing the name space URI. Otherwise everything
else is the same as the original style sheet tested with XT. Here is what's
happening behind the scene.

a) the XML server receives the query
b) the index server is queried (actually this is hardcoded since I am
developing it so you'll always get the news topic whatever you type in or
not type in - the news topic is my default test query). The index server (an
Alta Vista engine) uses the "news" category, get from this category the
query to be applied to the index server, do the query to the Alta Vista
index and return an XML document composed of the following hierarchy
netfolder
    |___ topic
           |__ topic

a netfolder is mapped to a Portal widget as found in Yahoo (in fact you'll
recognize that this portal page has a Yahoo style).
c) An XML document is created with a <document> element used as an enclosing
element. Then a style sheet PI is inserted (usually the style sheet is based
on the user profile - but not in this test version). When the final XML
document is composed, then it is sent to the user agent.
d) the user agent renders the XML document using the XSLT style sheet which
in this case act an XLink engine. This engine has a model where Xlink
extended element are listed with their content displayed as usual
uni-directional links. An other kind of Xlink interpreter created with XSLT
could as well use a menu metaphor to render the links (or any other kind of
user interface element that you can imagine with xlinks)

What is different from a usual HTML portal document? Simple, what is
transferred to the client is the model not the appearance. The client may
store the document, syndicate it, modify it, store it in a database, etc..
Otherwise, if you get an HTML portal page you'll have to know the HTML
document structure and extract the information. if the Portal modify the
HTML page, your information extraction script may no longer work. Also, it
could be possible to envision some browsers sophisticated enough (and I have
in Didier's labs doing that) that could have different ways to interpret
xlinks based on several stylesheets. Then the user may decide (client side)
how to interpret the links (for instance, with a portal widget or with a
menu)

Off course, to render the XML document you'll need the IE5 browser. But, to
support browsers legacy the XML server will, in a near future recognize the
user agent and allow the transformation to occur server side or client side.
As we saw in the famous last week thread, at least a third of the browsers
will render the document client side (this is an average and numbers may
differ for different site attracting different type of clients - i.e. early
adopters, visionnaries, pragmatists, followers, laggards). Thus only 2 out
of 3 client require server side transformation.  Some site will attract
laggards and the numbers may be 3 out of 3 server side transformation or
pragmatists, in this case 1 out of 3 (client side) or Early adopters (2 out
of 3 or 3 out of 3 for client side transformation). At the end of the year,
probably we'll have an average of 2 out of 3 client side transformation. In
this case, this does not impose too much strain on the server. And XML +XSLT
rendition can make a lot of sense.

I see some problems however for Portals with this new model since, what is
rendered is like before but what is sent to the client is the information.
Thus, developers can do queries to servers, get the information, repackage
it, add to it a new XSLT or CSS style sheet and then get a new page. In this
case, the word information aggregation or information syndication takes all
its sense but from the intellectual property point of view, this is a real
nightmare.

Anyway, this is fun to see that Xlink can be used also for portal widgets
(which usually contain links to other sites).

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From burton at relativity.yi.org  Mon Jan 24 23:03:01 2000
From: burton at relativity.yi.org (Kevin A. Burton)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: RSS 0.92???
Message-ID: <388CDA01.B86603FB@relativity.yi.org>

RSS has made a very large impact on the web and the XML community at
large.  

However I think it is time for a 0.92 revision.  Specifically because
RSS should become more of a slashdot type discussion content while
maintaining it's thin capability as in my.netscape.com and my.yahoo.com.

I have the following suggestions:

========================================
Ideas for a 0.92 version of RSS

- support an author within an item
        - necessary for a RSS channel published by a company
(www.slashdot.org,
      www.exolab.org)

- support an image within an item

    - adds extensions to become more like a portal site.  For small
      my.netscape.com this can just be ignored.  However for weblog
sites like
      slashdot or my home page (relativity.yi.org) this is necessary.

- <more> which is a URL that expands to a larger article
    - this can be used to bootstrap into a discussion URL or to a longer
version
      of the <description> tag.

- <desription> should not be CDATA anymore.  It should contain multiple
  paragraphs <p>

- published date on <items> via <pubDate>.  This allows you to keep
track of
  how old (or fresh) the content is.

- language on items.  This is necessary for global RSS
distribution.      

=========================================

Also, anyone have a contact with Netscape about this?  Their newsgroup
is pretty empty. 

-- 
Kevin A Burton
Senior Software Engineer
Kendara Inc
http://www.kendara.com
Mobile:  408-910-6145
Linux - The revolution will NOT be televised

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan 25 00:37:54 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C (was Re: Alternatives to the W3C)
References: <3.0.32.20000123221027.0150d7a0@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388CED82.6E4@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> 
> At 09:40 PM 1/23/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
> >So is DOM really required for XML 1.0, or is that a political position
> >about implementations?
> 
> There is no *point* to supporting XML in the browser if you don't
> support the DOM.  If all you want is to display nice-looking stuff
> to humans, HTML does an excellent job of that. -Tim

And as I point out, supports varies application language by application 
language.  As has been asked elsewhere, who would bother using 
the rawDOM since "it is an implementer's tool, not a content 
developer's tool".

Data structures: underneath the thin veneer, all apps have their 
own.  So, should we make resource intensive applications take 
the penalty of being in the same box as a text display engine?

len



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Tue Jan 25 00:46:13 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388CEF70.63EA@hiwaay.net>

Vilya Harvey wrote:
> 
> An interesting point though, is the response that this generated: the
> enforcement of the patent on GIF files led directly to the development of
> the (superior) public domain PNG file format, which is slowly but surely
> replacing GIF as one of the formats of choice for images on the web. I
> think there's probably a lesson in that somewhere...

I hate to tell you this Vilya, but the outcome was Unisys picked up 
some substantial licensing and the fellow who drove the effort got 
a righteous promotion.

The lesson is:  patent as fast as you can.  MPEG does and they 
are going to make money.  Someone has to pay for the stock bubble.

Only money matters.

len



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From l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co  Tue Jan 25 02:02:54 2000
From: l-arcini at uniandes.edu.co (Fabio Arciniegas A.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: ms news
Message-ID: <200001250207.VAA30119@trinity.viaduct.com>

Hi all,
Got this in a newsletter a few moments ago... thought you might be
interested.

Fabio.

      _______________________
XSLT and XPath Support Available January 26
Microsoft will release a technology preview version of their XML
parser, and includes updated support for the W3C's latest
recommendations for XSLT and XPath.  
http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/xml/general/msxmlprev.asp

--
Fabio Arciniegas A.  	                    Viaduct Technologies, Inc.
fabio@viaduct.com			         Software Engineer
Interests: XML, Wittgenstein and just about everything in between.
Oblique Strategy of the day: "Feed the recording back out of the medium"


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From KenNorth at email.msn.com  Tue Jan 25 03:11:58 2000
From: KenNorth at email.msn.com (KenNorth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: SAX and Pig Poop
Message-ID: <000701bf66e1$de373ce0$0b00a8c0@grissom>

>From time to time I see postings asking about "real world" XML applications.
Software Development magazine (February 2000 issue) is running an
interesting agribusiness case study -- using XML to publish university
agricultural research.

"XML and Pig Poop: Agribusiness Online" by Rick Wayne, Univ. of Wisconsin


The developers used XML to get numbers into Java programs instead of coding
lots of equations as
Java. One of the models is used for odor prediction. How's that for "real
world" XML!










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From aray at q2.net  Tue Jan 25 05:20:03 2000
From: aray at q2.net (Arjun Ray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241128570.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001250017470.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>



On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, I wrote:
> On 24 Jan 2000, Richard Tobin wrote:
> 
> > Section 3.3.3 [...]
> > However the Oasis test suite [...]
> > 
> > Which is correct?
> 
> If the intent is to do it the SGML way, then 3.3.3 is correct. [...]
> 
> The SGML gotcha here has to do with the 'SEPCHAR' category.  

s/SEPCHAR/SPACE/g

Sorry about that.

Perhaps it's worth pointing out that a numeric character reference is
the only way to have the literal character in a normalized attribute
value, since internal CDATA entities are not allowed.  So, under the
Oasis interpretation, one could never have end-of-lines in CDATA
attribute values.  I'm not sure that's reasonable.

OTOH, if these literals do sneak through the whitespace rules, what
about the further tokenization for non-CDATA attributes?  The SGML
rules scream "Error!!", but I'm not sure that's reasonable either.


Arjun


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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Tue Jan 25 06:59:01 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <388CEF70.63EA@hiwaay.net>
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]>
 <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
 <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com>

At Monday 1/24/00 06:33 PM -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>The lesson is:  patent as fast as you can.  MPEG does and they
>are going to make money.  Someone has to pay for the stock bubble.

The other lesson is, if you're a developer (or hire them), get yourself (or 
each of them) a hardbound lab notebook with numbered pages, about US$50 or 
so at your local stationer, and every time you (or your employees) think of 
something interesting that seems like a new idea, write it down in detail 
and have at least two witnesses sign and date it. That way, you too may 
have something to argue with when someone claims that there is no prior art 
and it may even be worth hiring an attorney if you hear that someone has 
patented "your" idea.

Half the software patents I've seen seem to be "clever" restatements of 
ideas that have been floating around for years, like patenting a doorbell 
because you put it on the flap of a tent, which no one had ever done before.

I strongly object to the whole idea of patenting software, which uses the 
legal fiction of a metaphorical machine to get around the fact that they're 
really patenting ideas and algorithms in thin disguise. The LZW "method" is 
an algorithm, not a machine, and should be no more patentable than the 
binomial theorem, which could just as easily have been swathed in a cloak 
of "machine" frosting and sold to the highest bidder if our acquiescent 
patent office had been around to cozy up to at the time. Feh!

The way to get rich off ideas is to have more of them and better ones, not 
throw up moribund fossil thoughts as a barrier to further innovation. IBM 
has one of the largest patent libraries in the world, which surely accounts 
for the fact that they're not exactly at the forefront of software 
development today. Having too many patents laying about is like hardening 
of the arteries; it will kill you sooner or later.

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From jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr  Tue Jan 25 09:01:01 2000
From: jean-marc_vanel at effix.fr (Jean Marc VANEL)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: my XSLT equipment
Message-ID: <C1256871.0030CE32.00@smtpnotes.effix.fr>



Hello

After searching a translation XML Schema --> C++ declarations and SAX liaison (which I'm finally doing myself), I'm looking for the translation :

XML Schema --> DTD

Anyone willing to share code ?
But it's such an obvious need that it should be available somewhere.

I currently use XML Authoriy 1.1 demo version (of extensibility.com), but I don't want to be dependant of it.

Jean-Marc
"The XML is the data."



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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 09:11:48 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:35 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>



:  I strongly object to the whole idea of patenting software, 
:  which uses the 
:  legal fiction of a metaphorical machine to get around the 
:  fact that they're 
:  really patenting ideas and algorithms in thin disguise. The 
:  LZW "method" is 
:  an algorithm, not a machine, and should be no more 
:  patentable than the 
:  binomial theorem, which could just as easily have been 
:  swathed in a cloak 
:  of "machine" frosting and sold to the highest bidder if our 
:  acquiescent 
:  patent office had been around to cozy up to at the time. Feh!

You might need to distinguish between an algorithm in the mathematical sense
and the implementation of an algorithm. One the great ideas of this century
is that you can separate the logic of a machine from its mechanical make-up.
The entire software industry is built on this idea.

Implementations of algorithms can be easily seen as machines, just because
it doesn't have gross moving parts doesn't make it not a machine. Would you
accept Amazon's one click patent if they used water driven gears and a
couple of Jacquard looms? 

If the binomial theorem appeared last week say, I don't see why it couldn't
be patented, if it was rephrased as an algorithmic process from which
machines can be built. It's good that the innovative and the daring be
rewarded with protection for their ideas. If anything patents drive
invention by forcing further innovation. People worry too much about
patents. The Shockley patent didn't exactly kill the electronics revolution.
Geoworks' patent won't kill phone computing.


:  The way to get rich off ideas is to have more of them and 
:  better ones, not 
:  throw up moribund fossil thoughts as a barrier to further 
:  innovation. IBM 
:  has one of the largest patent libraries in the world, which 
:  surely accounts 
:  for the fact that they're not exactly at the forefront of software 
:  development today. Having too many patents laying about is 
:  like hardening 
:  of the arteries; it will kill you sooner or later.

Interesting thesis but I don't think it holds up. 

Regards,

Bill de hOra 

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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Tue Jan 25 11:24:41 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001250313580.16315-100000@netcom8.netcom.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Bill dehOra wrote:
> If the binomial theorem appeared last week say, I don't see why it couldn't
> be patented, if it was rephrased as an algorithmic process from which
> machines can be built. It's good that the innovative and the daring be
> rewarded with protection for their ideas. If anything patents drive
> invention by forcing further innovation. People worry too much about
> patents. The Shockley patent didn't exactly kill the electronics revolution.
> Geoworks' patent won't kill phone computing.

Point of order: the purpose of patent law is *not*, contrary to popular
belief, to reward inventors for simply creating inventions; the
marketplace is entirely capable of doing that.  Rather, it's to reward
inventors for making the details of how their inventions work public
rather than trying to keep them secret.  The idea is to further innovation
by making it possible to build on other people's work rather than having
to re-invent everything.

That, BTW, is the reason why to qualify for a patent, an invention must be
novel, non-obvious and described in sufficient detail to be "capable of
being reduced to practice by a skilled practitioner of the art."  The
details being disclosed have to be substantial enough that their
disclosure actually advances the state of the art.

The problem is that lately, the USPTO seems to be awarding patents that
cover *all* possible means of achieving a particular outcome rather than
specific implementations.  Merely thinking up a desirable result doesn't
provide much to build on.  As someone once put it, it's like getting a
patent on the broad concept of mechanically trapping mice rather than on
the design of a particular mousetrap.



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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 11:30:41 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA430@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  Point of order: the purpose of patent law is *not*, contrary 
:  to popular
:  belief, to reward inventors for simply creating inventions; the
:  marketplace is entirely capable of doing that.  Rather, it's 
:  to reward
:  inventors for making the details of how their inventions work public
:  rather than trying to keep them secret. 

Yes and this involves protection of the patent holder in the event of
infringement. I consider that protection a form of reward.

Regards,

Bill de hOra  
  

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From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 11:58:40 2000
From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Alternatives to the W3C
Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA2318035A9B47@FL-EXCHANGE-03>


JAT

Whilst the figures may clearly show the proportion of visitors using each
kind of browser, they do nothing to indicate the 'key' audience.

I'm referring to Pareto's Law, of course, which suggests that only some 20%
of site visitors are 'key players' - the other 80% (approx.) are just
'passing through'.

Simply skewing your website display in favour of the browser(s) used by the
majority of your visitors *could* be (partially) shutting out the visitors
you'd most like to encourage.  But on the other hand, how would you ever
know?

Regards

Andy B.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Livingstone, ITS, SENM
[mailto:steven.livingstone@scotent.co.uk]
Sent: 20 January 2000 16:34
To: Didier PH Martin; 'XML Dev'; Elliotte Rusty Harold
Subject: RE: Alternatives to the W3C


This is useful ...
Browser Flavors
 Browser Flavors                  Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. Microsoft                     7245  60.3
  2. Netscape                      4332  36.1
  3. other                          436   3.6
Microsoft Explorer Versions
 Version                     MSIE Hosts     %
 --------------------------------------------
  1. v5                            4581  63.2
  2. v4                            2330  32.2
  3. v3                             213   2.9
  4. v2                             116   1.6
  5. other                            5    .1
 

Source : http://www.cen.uiuc.edu/bstats/latest.html

steven

Steven Livingstone
Glasgow, Scotland.
07771 957 280 or +447771957280

Pro XML
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861003110
Professional Site Server 3, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002696
Professional Site Server 3.0 Commerce Edition, Wrox Press
http://www.wrox.com/Consumer/Store/Details.asp?ISBN=1861002505


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Didier PH Martin [SMTP:martind@netfolder.com]
> Sent:	20 January 2000 04:15
> To:	'XML Dev'; Elliotte Rusty Harold
> Subject:	RE: Alternatives to the W3C
> 
> Hi
> 
> Elliotte said:
> These developers are deluding themselves. MSIE 5.x is less than 50% ....
> 
> Didier replies:
> To get an objective picture, do people can suggest sites having statistics
> about browsers, I promise to make an average of all these numbers and
> publish them back to the group. This way, we'll have a more objective base
> for our thinking and we will resemble less to a parliament or a senate
> :-))
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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> 
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From Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 12:37:03 2000
From: Toby.Speight at streapadair.freeserve.co.uk (Toby Speight)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Web browsers and editors (was: Alternatives to the W3C)
In-Reply-To: "Dave Winer"'s message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:30:06 -0800"
References: <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com> <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy> <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net> <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <ur9f6e3a3.fsf_-_@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>

Dave> Dave Winer <URL:mailto:dave@userland.com>

0> In article <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>, Dave wrote:

Dave> The next step is to wire in Notepad, Simpletext and Emacs, but
Dave> the next step after that is to bring the web browser into the
Dave> text editing tools to erase the last seam.

Like Emacs-w3, you mean?

Toby (happy Emacs-w3 user for 4 years).

-- 


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From edz at bsn.com  Tue Jan 25 12:44:10 2000
From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001250313580.16315-100000@netcom8.netcom.com> from "Eric Bohlman" at Jan 25, 0 03:23:11 am
Message-ID: <200001251250.NAA01048@shirley.bsn.com>

> The problem is that lately, the USPTO seems to be awarding patents that
> cover *all* possible means of achieving a particular outcome rather than
> specific implementations.  Merely thinking up a desirable result doesn't
> provide much to build on.  As someone once put it, it's like getting a
> patent on the broad concept of mechanically trapping mice rather than on
> the design of a particular mousetrap.
> 
The key to understanding the current situation is the observation that one
can patent nearly anything if it meets certain formal requirements (which
for the USPTO is increasingly too a free-for-all to include not just algorithms,
natural laws, natural life forms but such things as business models). The patent
offices--- and this is not restricted to the USPTO---  have elected given "a
complexity of the material" to "...let the courts decide". In many ways the USPTO
have just taken the logical step to declare itself ill-suited to judge the
difference between a business plan, a machine or an animal. Given the (potentially
quite high) costs of a patent suit this has effectively flip-floped the original
motivations of patents. 

-- 
______________________
<A HREF="whois://rs.internic.net/ecz">Edward C. Zimmermann</A>
<A HREF="http://www.bsn.com/">Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich</A>
Cellular: +49 (179) 205-0539


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From ebohlman at netcom.com  Tue Jan 25 13:45:21 2000
From: ebohlman at netcom.com (Eric Bohlman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Beginner question - What is a schema?
In-Reply-To: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063D@mail.turnstone.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSU.4.10.10001250537470.25095-100000@netcom8.netcom.com>

On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Doug Forman wrote:
> Can anybody give me a good definition of what is a schema, and how it
> applies to xml?
>  
> My understanding is that it is a logical template for a heirarchical
> database; and any xml document is based on some schema.

Insert ', such as' right after 'template' and you'd be correct.  A schema
is simply an (abstract) specification for how things relate to each other
and what can go where.  It may be implicit, e.g. defined by how some code
processes a particular type of XML document, or it may be explicit, such
as a DTD or a document written in the instance syntax proposed in the
W3C's XML-Schema draft.

An explicit, machine-readable schema is necessary if you want an XML
processor to be able to tell you whether a document is valid according to
its rules, or to provide default values for certain kinds of omitted data.
In many applications, this isn't necessary, but it's almost always useful
to have some formalized schema, even if it exists only on paper, as
documentation.



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From david at megginson.com  Tue Jan 25 14:26:03 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: Lee Anne Phillips's message of "Mon, 24 Jan 2000 22:52:06 -0800"
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk> <4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <m37lgyrzz2.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Lee Anne Phillips <leeanne@leeanne.com> writes:

> I strongly object to the whole idea of patenting software, which
> uses the legal fiction of a metaphorical machine to get around the
> fact that they're really patenting ideas and algorithms in thin
> disguise. The LZW "method" is an algorithm, not a machine, and
> should be no more patentable than the binomial theorem, which could
> just as easily have been swathed in a cloak of "machine" frosting
> and sold to the highest bidder if our acquiescent patent office had
> been around to cozy up to at the time. Feh!

Or, to put it differently, patenting generic software algorithms is
like patenting move plots or business strategies.  The good news is
that most technologically-advanced countries in the world agree, and
do not allow software patents; the bad news is that the U.S. doesn't
agree, and worse, its patent office has proven itself technically
inept for the patents it does grant.

Ironically, it's the U.S. tech industry that would benefit the most
from getting rid of software patents, since the U.S. is better than
anyone else in the world at producing small, competitive start-ups
(despite software patents, decency laws, export restrictions, and
other silly barriers raised by their government).

> The way to get rich off ideas is to have more of them and better
> ones, not throw up moribund fossil thoughts as a barrier to further
> innovation. IBM has one of the largest patent libraries in the
> world, which surely accounts for the fact that they're not exactly
> at the forefront of software development today. Having too many
> patents laying about is like hardening of the arteries; it will kill
> you sooner or later.

There are many good cases for patents.  When the cost of development
is high, and the development period is long, as is the case for
prescription drugs, some sort of limited patent protection is
necessary to ensure research and innovation.  On the other hand,
developing software algorithms is relatively cheap and fast (oops!  I
just thought of another one), so it's very hard to argue that granting
people a ten-year monopoly on them is in any way in the public
interest.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 14:32:15 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL
In-Reply-To: <006b01bf6487$2ab48760$0201a8c0@tomshp>
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>
 <023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <Version.32.20000124011356.00e98700@pop3.demon.co.uk>

At 10:17 PM 1/21/00 -0500, Thomas B. Passin wrote:
>
>Michael Champion wrote:
>>
>>
>The thing about the writing is this:  the Recs must communicate clearly and,
>we hope :-), unambiguously to would-be users.  Think of all the arguments on
>this list that occur because neither the letter nor the intent of a Rec is
>clear.  There are two common ways to improve on written material.  One is
>peer review.  You should choose some reviewers that are expert in the field.
>The second is mass review, sort of like beta testing.  Discussion groups
>could do this.
>
>Trouble with peer review is, who could you get, especially without pay, who
>isn't already involved? 

[comments below]

>Trouble with discussion groups is, a lot of the
>people responding are either not knowledgeable enough or don't read the
>material closely enough. Still, where there is widespread misunderstanding,
>the material probably needs rewriting.  This mechanism is already being
>used, although I don't know how much it matters to the working groups.

I would like to think that this list acts somewhere between peer-review and
a discussion group, particularly on technical issues. In the early days it
was the main forum for 
public analysis of the specs, particularly since XML was not widely
appreciated.

>
>The IETF won't bless an RFC until there are two independent implementations.
>I think this is the right kind of approach.  Surely, Tim B's Lark
>implementation must have been a great help to the XML committee (I'm
>guessing, I don't really know anything about its role).

It was, along with Norbert Mikula's NXP (later DXP) and James Clark's XP -
I think in that

order. They were important in simplifying (sic) the specification of such
things as parameter
entities. I also endorse the need for reference implementations - this is
one reason why I would like a
"browser" platform on which to hang early implementations of technical
subjects.

>There's nothing
>like trying to build to a spec to uncover its lack of clarity.

Absolutely agreed - and this was really the main motivation in setting up
this list.

Peer Review
---------

I write (perhaps) from a rather academic perspective, but it could be
interesting to comment on the role of "publications", "peer review", etc in
the context of scholarly publishing. I write this partly because the time
has come when HenryR and I have to justify our existence to our university
employers - we get assessed on "research excellence" as measured by
scholarly publications in "journals" weighted by their impact factor.
"Nature" and "Science" score very highly in the STM
(science/technical/medical) area whereas I suspect the (?now defunct?)
WorldWideWeb Journal scores low. This impact factor is a measure of how
many citations the journal gets. Funding, and therefore jobs, depends on
the number of "high-impact" publications. We academics are now preparing
our justification to keep on living.

This is not an absolute measure of excellence, but the algorithm is easy to
apply and has replaced the practice of weighing paper publications. However
it is strongly biased in favour of the status quo, and publications in new
"journals" are likely to be regarded as 
equivalent to professional suicide. I am wondering, therefore, how we
measure the "value" of publication in the communal electronic market-place. 


Because of my involvement in XML I get asked to talk on scientific
publications and the e-revolution and I try to envisage the role of the new
technology in changing the publication marketplace. The fundamentals are
that high quality still involves a lot of money (conventional scientific
publishers reckon that 70% of their costs are not related to the cost of
paper, but concerned with editing, peer-review, etc.). On the other hand we
can set up a forum - like XML-DEV - where the production costs are marginal
and the "editorial policy" is not expensive in cash terms. In XML-DEV we
have something that has many of the qualities of a "scientific publication".

Apart from the vicious circle of publishing to gain funding, STM
publications have the following roles:
	- communication to the community
	- establishing priority of ideas or expressions
	- opening one's work to peer review
	- building a sense of community
	- formally depositing re-usable material (data, code, etc.) in the public
domain
	- acting as a historical record

In all those areas XML-DEV functions well (and often better) than
traditional methods. XML-DEV is not unique and there are many successful
models, RFC, other specialist mailgroups, W3C notes, and possibly even
newsgroups. [I distinguish XML-DEV from a newsgroup mainly because there is
a different membership and attitude, springing from its history.] Is there
formal recognition of work done by individuals or organisations? For
example, HenryR and I submitted an RFC some years ago (on using MIME for
chemistry). There was a huge amount of (mainly) valuable peer-review, but
in the end the community didn't take it further. In my own set of values I
would regard the authorship of an RFC as more valuable than many of my
traditional chemical publications.

The formal STM publication market is, in fact, arbitrary. Although it
originated from learned societies and individuals, commercial publishers
moved in because they thought they could make money - and did. [Their
required growth rates are now crippling the academic library system and
most librarians are trapped in a cycle of chopping subscriptions and
appeasement. Many academics are now not publishing in commercial journals.]
But the technology we are developing, here, gives us some opportunity to
change this from the bottom-up.

I therefore see XML-DEV as one instance of a wide range of "new publication
types". I would like to see these as rooted in trusted organisations, and
that is one of the primary reasons for transferring to OASIS. XML-DEV has -
effectively - achieved the status of a high-impact STM journal - it is
widely read (ca 2000, and rising, and probably re-distributed within
firewalls) and the recent MODERATION discussion has suggested it works well
for members. In other words it is worth their "paying" (in time, not money)
to read XML-DEV. It is cited in a variety of e- and paper sources. This is
one reason why Henry and I are keen to preserve the archives, because
otherwise we lose some of our e-history.

I think we have an opportunity here. Is there a role for (say) XML-DEV
whitepapers? SAX, XSchema, DDML, and SML could fall into this category.
They don't necessarily have to be "successful" - in that they get adopted -
 but they have to be seen as competent and innovative.

So to sum it up, apart from the formal academic process, I feel like the
editor of a journal who has been pro-active in sponsoring high-quality
publications which meet the criteria set out above. [Obviously if it led to
a formal impact factor as well I would be even more happy because it helps
keep my job!]. A there ways forward worth developing as part of the move to
OASIS?

	P.


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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 25 14:52:16 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <388CEF70.63EA@hiwaay.net>
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]>
 <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
 <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <200001251451.JAA02487@hesketh.net>

At 06:33 PM 1/24/00 -0600, Len Bullard wrote:
>The lesson is:  patent as fast as you can.  MPEG does and they 
>are going to make money.  Someone has to pay for the stock bubble.

Apple tried that with FireWire and IEEE 1394 process has suffered mightily.
 Unless I buy a Mac, I don't ever expect to see FireWire/1394 in any real use.

It could've been a contender...

Imagine if we were trying to sell XML with a licensing fee!  That'd be fun,
even if it were possible.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 14:50:31 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: MODERATORIAL (was: Web browsers and editors)
In-Reply-To: <ur9f6e3a3.fsf_-_@lanber.cam.eu.citrix.com>
References: <"Dave Winer"'s message of "Wed, 19 Jan 2000 12:30:06 -0800">
 <81A48CA1E953D211B11600A0C9E1C1B975F2D5@mail.bowstreet.com>
 <02dc01bf6299$7a9d7100$1918ccce@murphy>
 <38861471.38EC@hiwaay.net>
 <038001bf62bb$f95f9320$1918ccce@murphy>
Message-ID: <E12D7IZ-0006mf-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

[MODERATORIAL. A gentle indication of good list practice follows...]

At 12:36 PM 1/25/00 +0000, Toby Speight wrote:

[... an exemplary example of how and when to change a subject line ...]

I have replied to this, and also changed the subject line to reflect the
content of *this* message :-)

Note that I have:
	- removed the "(was Alternatives... suffix)"
	- inserted a (was: ...) to show whence this came
	- added a descriptive subject
	- replied *only* to the list, not to the author

Anyone else who wishes to reply to a posting with a subject line containing
one-or-more instances of "Alternatives to the W3C" should consider whether
their reply now fits the "Web browsers and editors" theme better.

The reason I have revitalised this is that Henry and I want to try to
analyse the list content and structure so that we can normalise and
hyperlink the content of XML-DEV. Removing spurious material and
encouraging good subject lines will be helpful in this process.

	P.

[BTW some will have noticed that the hypermailer is capable of time travel
(the MCMLXX bug). This is not present in the original mail, I think.]

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From tbray at textuality.com  Tue Jan 25 14:58:30 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000125065432.013d8100@pop.intergate.ca>

I was at a little angel-investor event late last year, there were 4 startups
presenting to a dozen or so potential angels [I was one of the startups] and
the other three startups all made a big deal about how they either had
already launched their patent applications or had advice from one of the
best patent attorneys in the biz about their stuff being patentable.

Felt kind of left out.

My former company Open Text sold Microsoft a bunch of software back in
the early nineties to index the fulltext of the US patent database.  About
50Gb at that time.  When we were getting this thing going, I amused myself
by going and poking around software patents in the area of full-text search
and retrieval (Open Text's business then).  Sickening.  Folks, it's really 
bad out there.  It is very unlikely that any entrepreneur who wants to build
and sell software can avoid infringing a couple of dozen horse-shit US
patents.  

Einstein used to be a patent inspector in Switzerland.  Clearly the US 
office maintains a lower standard.  -T.

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Tue Jan 25 15:11:58 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001241128570.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>
Message-ID: <86kefq$1rje$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

Another strangeness: if my interpretation of section 3.3.3 is right,
and character entities for tab, cr and lf are not normalised to spaces,
then this is a valid NMTOKENS attribute:

  "foo &#x9; bar"

but is not normalised to have a space character between the two
tokens, which is "obviously" intended.

It seems to me that it would make sense for tab, cr and lf entities to
get normalised to spaces (and then compressed to a single space) for
non-CDATA attributes.

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 15:21:27 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Politics? baaah no, Feedback on peer's work? yeah!
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGELMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Eliot,

Since politics seem popular in this list these days. I'll break the trend by
being the fisrt in this list to provide you with feedback about the docuent
you posted (ref: Using UML to Define XML document types)

a) first and formemost, since it now seems that we have a plethora of way to
define an XML document structure and types, your approach have the advantage
to isolate from these particular ways to define an XML document. From what I
read, this method will surely be favored by visually inclined people. But
for more aural ones, text methods will would probbly prevail. I still have
to carefully understand and study the advantages you listed.

b) In page 3 you said: "Elements have a local type name, a "public"
(persistent) name...". What do you mean by a persistent name in addition to
the local type name?

c) In page 4 the figure shows an element's information content. I know that
we do not have for XML the equivalent of the grove element"s class
definition. But, is this list of properties for an element the only ones or
is there any additional ones. Or are these properties above the abstraction
level of the element's properties.

d) Your element's content definition (page 5) is probaly more useful than
the actual info set definition since your definition show the relationship
between the elements. Thus, there is less ambiguity.

enough for the moment. I need a second reading to ding more into it.

Thanks for this good work Eliot.


Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From rbunis at is.hhsys.org  Tue Jan 25 15:39:08 2000
From: rbunis at is.hhsys.org (Rich Bunis)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <003f01bf674b$12783860$b7baa8c0@hhsys.int>

Please take me off the list.


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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 15:49:28 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

Continuing my work on xlinks I discovered that xlink:extended elements do
not fit well with hierarchical structures like required for table of
content. However, simple links are better. Why?

a) What's great about XML is that its structure is hierarchical. So, if a
hierarchical structure is mapped into an XML element hierarchy, we have here
a perfect match since when we read the XML document, the hierarchy is
obvious from its structure.

b) A table of content is usually a hierarchical structure. Each node of the
hierarchy is a topic. Thus, in a table of content a topic may contain an
other topic. The topic containing the others is more abstract and the
contained topics are more particular.

c) In a table of content each node (i.e. topic) is pointing to a location.
Thus, there is a one to one relationship between a topic and a location.
This is why the xlink:simple seems to fit the requirements.

Example of a table of content using xlink:simple elements

<topic xlink:type="simple" xlink:href"#chapter1" xlink:title="chapter1">
	<topic xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="#section1" xlink:title="section1/>
		<topic xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="#paragraph1"
xlink:title="paragraph1"/>
	<topic xlink:type="simple" xlink:href="#section2" xlink:title="section2"/>
</topic>

an xlink interpreter (it could be implemented in XSLT - by the way, there
where no reactions when I said that an XSLT style sheet can be seen as an
xlink interpreter) can deduce a hierarchical structure for these links and
display them as such, for instance as:

chapter1
	section1
		paragraph1
	section2

(hope that the indentations will survive the mail agent massage - yes I said
massage not message :-)

Question: why not use the xlink extended to build the TOC hierarchy?
Answer: because the Xlink:extended link contains anchors but itself do not
refer to a resource. An xlink:extended link implies a one to many
relationship. This construct seems more adapted to indexes, where each topic
if found in many locations.

Now a question to the group. I am not so sure after reading the
recommendations if an xlink:simple could be included in an external linkset.
Why would we do that? Let's imagine for a second that we want to encode a
discussion thread about a document. For instance, a specification. Then a
discussion thread is perfectly matched to a hierarchical structure where
each node is having a one to one relationship with a location. Thus, the
usage of the xlink:simple seems more appropriate than the usage of the
xlink:extended in that case. But can we include xlink:simple hierarchies in
external linksets? Or if we do so, is it still called a linkset or did it
became a new kind of things?

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 25 16:06:52 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <200001251606.LAA07326@hesketh.net>

At 06:40 AM 1/24/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:
>Question: why not use the xlink extended to build the TOC hierarchy?
>Answer: because the Xlink:extended link contains anchors but itself do not
>refer to a resource. An xlink:extended link implies a one to many
>relationship. This construct seems more adapted to indexes, where each topic
>if found in many locations.

I think you're right on this point in general, though you could build a TOC
out of extended links using arcs to restrict the one-to-many down to
one-to-one without much difficulty.

If you're looking for an automated TOC builder, I think you might actually
find the 'restrained' extended link approach easier in some cases, though
the simple link approach is more intuitive.

(I argued for a long time that treating simple links as fundamentally
different critters from extended links is ridiculous, but seem not to have
won any ground on that point.  Arcs at least offer some kind of middle
ground now.)

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 16:52:06 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Semantic links
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELOEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

Yes again, about links :-)) But this time about semantic links.

A link by itself is a kind of pointer. Can we make this pointer to provide
more information, like for instance meta data about the pointed resource?

I think that the answer is yes and that creating semantic links can lead to
more useful apps than the actual RDF.

Example of a semantic link:

<topic type="extended" title="XML">
	<resource type="locator" title="Everything you always wanted to know about
XML but where afraid to ask about" href="http://www.Woody.com/XML.htm">
	`... other locators ....
	<description>resources about XML</description>
	<CreatedBy>Woody</CreatedBy>
	<date>January 24 2000</date>
	<comment>put comments here...</comment>
	</resource>
</topic>

So, if we have the same mechanism as RDF has for descriptions but this time
having all the properties enclosed in a "resource" element. Then, each
locator that points to a resource (this is its intent) can also provide meta
information about this resource. If the locator element is using the
"rdf:type" attribute, then the link can be related to a class hierarchy. The
class hierarchy could itself be part of a thesaurus and thus be included in
an ontology. So, an engine aware of xlink types and rdf types could:

a) know all the resources (one to many) that this link points and be able to
perform the operation required when the user select one of the anchors.
b) could provide to users semantic information by providing them meta data
about the resource.
c) Could relate the link to a certain ontology. For instance, if the link
having the title "XML" is also having the rdf:type="Markup". Then if the
rdf:schema is available (I still do not know how to relate the document to
the rdf schema), the engine may discover that the "markup" class is a
subclass of "text format" and then could propose to the user alternative
links knowing that an instance of class "markup" is also an instance of a
class "text format".

Conclusion:
I found particularly useful the xlink:type attribute that allows me to
transform an element into a link (a kind of architectural form). The
rdf:type also because the engine can make semantic deductions like finding
that a "markup" entity is also a "text format" entity and thus go beyond the
link by adding more intelligence to navigation. Finally, I discovered that
if elements are included into "locators" as we would do for a
rdf:description frame, we also add meta data to the anchors and thus allow
the user to know what the resource is before navigating to it.

So these where the latest news from Didier's lab ;-) Anyway, I structure
this info in a more formal paper so that this recipe could also be used by
others.


Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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From leeanne at leeanne.com  Tue Jan 25 17:00:50 2000
From: leeanne at leeanne.com (Lee Anne Phillips)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.
 co.uk>
Message-ID: <4.2.0.58.20000125070032.00ba4de0@shell16.ba.best.com>

At Tuesday 1/25/00 09:10 AM +0000, Bill dehOra wrote:
>You might need to distinguish between an algorithm in the mathematical sense
>and the implementation of an algorithm. One the great ideas of this century
>is that you can separate the logic of a machine from its mechanical make-up.
>The entire software industry is built on this idea.
>
>Implementations of algorithms can be easily seen as machines, just because
>it doesn't have gross moving parts doesn't make it not a machine. Would you
>accept Amazon's one click patent if they used water driven gears and a
>couple of Jacquard looms?

Contrary to popular belief, the framers of our patent system were well 
aware that machines embodied ideas, which is why they allowed only specific 
embodiments of the basic ideas to be patented and not the ideas or 
algorithms behind them. So yes, I would accept a one-click patent based on 
gears and Jacquard looms, if Amazon cared to try to patent that embodiment 
of the idea. Of course they'd have to mention Babbage's prior art. I might 
even accept a specific electronic implementation on a particular computing 
machine, but there is a level of abstraction beyond which you can't go 
without strangling the source of ideas.

I'm sure we're all aware of Alan Turing and his gang of cryptographers, not 
to mention Colossus, but that doesn't change the basic conflict between the 
current state of affairs in the US and the real purpose of patent law, 
which is, as has also been pointed out by other posts, to encourage the 
public exchange of ideas by allowing someone with an idea to license their 
embodiment of it, encouraging others in turn to take that idea and either 
build on it or find a better way of doing it.

Using Turing's insight to twist the patent law into pretzels by allowing 
*any* idea to be embodied concretely, thereby allowing the patenting of the 
very ideas and algorithms specifically prohibited by the framers of 
"natural" patent law, is a result only a lawyer or accountant could love. 
In fact, if the Turing test is ever passed, you could patent people, which 
some of us might eventually recognize as reductio ad absurdum. But only in 
the USA, thank heavens.

This doesn't encourage innovation, only more and more Byzantine attempts to 
work around legal minefields laid by companies anxious to make competition 
more expensive. And the admitted incompetence of the PO makes it possible 
for ideas that have been originated and widely used by others to be 
disguised by verbiage to the point that the patent examiners don't 
recognize them, tricking them into granting a government license to bully 
small competitors with a presumption of protection and a heavy burden of 
proof and potential costs to overcome. It works only to discourage small 
innovators and protect the interests of large corporations, who can afford 
the cost of initiating a patent search and application as well as the lawsuits.

It's worth noting that MS-DOS was a cheap knock-off of CP/M, and if the 
patent office had allowed protection of computer "methods" at that time, 
Bill Gates might possibly have stayed at Harvard and been in some other 
line of work today. Whether this would be good news or bad is up to your 
own good judgement.

The fact that there are two systems of protecting innovation, patents and 
copyright, is the embodiment of the wisdom of the original framers of our 
"intellectual property" laws. If you wanted to protect a machine, you used 
patents and could protect and license the physical embodiment of the idea 
but not the idea itself. If you wanted to protect an idea, you used 
copyright to protect your specific expression of the idea but, again, 
couldn't protect the idea itself.

Ideas were always exempted from any sort of protection because the purpose 
of both laws was to encourage the free expression of and interchange of 
ideas. If you wanted to take the idea and run with it, you were free to do 
so as long as you used your own words (copyright) or mechanisms (patent) to 
do so. Copyright lasts for a long time, as is appropriate, a book can be a 
lifetime investment of research and effort, while patents are fairly short 
term, also appropriate. In fact, given the pace of mechanical innovation in 
modern times, it could be argued that patent protection periods should be 
decreased. A 17 year term made sense in horse and buggy days. I'm not at 
all sure it does now.

Copyright is an appropriate mechanism for protecting computer programs, not 
patent rights. But nobody bothers nowadays, since patents are a bigger club 
to thrash your competitors with.

Funny you should mention it, though; the doorbell I mentioned facetiously 
is, in fact, a one-click method that sets into motion a very complex 
sequence of stored program (wetware) events, determining if an occupant is 
at home or otherwise available, and eliciting a response based on private 
information known to the "doorbell" host, mediated by current information 
gathered from the "doorbell" user through past and current interactions and 
through optical, aural, or other means of recognition through a viewing or 
listening device or portal, or prearranged signal, or other information 
exchange mechanism, and selectively using accumulated knowledge to 
determine the appropriate response. Phrased more-or-less in that way, I 
have no doubt that one could have a jolly good try at patenting doorbells 
if no one at the Patent Office happened to notice the joke. Which I 
sincerely doubt they would, given their history.



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From klarlund at research.att.com  Tue Jan 25 17:07:16 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Arrgh! - FW: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
References: <200001241706.MAA28650@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <013101bf6755$ef5269e0$b2e3cf87@research.att.com>

> >1. The Infoset is not the same as the DOM. The Infoset does not imply a
tree
> >structure. The Infoset should never imply a tree structure, as it's
intended
> >to describe the behavior of non-node-oriented processors such as SAX.

  "This specification presents the information set as a tree for the
   sake of clarity and simplicity.."  (verbatim, from Infoset, Last
   Call).

"Tree" is a widely used term among computer scientists, logicians,
mathematicians, and so forth.  The quintessence of XML is that it's a
linear syntax for labelled trees.  (Other characterizations are
possible, of course.) The tree view is the key to the superiority of
CSS and XSLT as an abstraction mechanism over text-macro based markup
languages (like TeX/Latex).

>> I believe the W3C made the right call by making attributes not
> >children of the elements with which they are associated.

Quite possibly, but other nodes deserve some nomenclature as well, not ad
hoc
treatments.

> >3. The term "information item" is a necessary one because of the overuse
of
> >other synonyms (such as element, attribute, and so on) in the DOM
> >specifications. Information items are none of these.

Would you call page numbers "page information items"?  The information items
are nodes in a tree (with ordereded and unordered children) and should be
called
nodes.
|
> >4. Nils appears to be obsessed with terminology in the XML 1.0
> >specification, which is significantly out of date at this point. The
newer
> >drafts should be taken as the "official" W3C position - there's just not
> >anyone providing errata to the original document to keep it in line. For
> >example, the current way of thinking says that there's a Document node,
> >which must have exactly one Element child node. XML 1.0 says something
> >slightly different, but that's not important.

No, I'm concerned that DOM, XPATH, and INFOSET do not turn out to be
essentially the same model.  That would be a great shame.  Better get it
right
than rush.

/Nils


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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 17:51:21 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
In-Reply-To: <200001251606.LAA07326@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEMAEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Simon,

I was thinking about writing a document about the Table of content pattern,
submit it to XML-DEV people and store it...everywhere people want to store
it since it would be our property not mine. This could be used as a
guideline or even to become a certain standard for xml developers. The first
problem that I see this can resolve is the problem of site maps that as
essentially composed of links to resources.

Thanks for your comments Simon.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 17:50:24 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMELMEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <E12DA6c-000LFg-0B@finch-post-11.mail.demon.net>

At 06:40 AM 1/24/00 -0500, Didier PH Martin wrote:

[.. call for discussion on Xlink ...]

I am pleased to see a discussion of Xlink resurfacing on XML-DEV. Xlink was
in fact meant to be the second in the family of XML protocols (before
XML-style == "XSL"). There have been previous discussions and I, for one,
found EliotK's
postings(http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9705/0098.htm and
thereabouts) extremely useful.

Xlink has taken the community longer than was anticipated, and I think it
will be very valuable to have implementations. Eliot points out that Xlink
can serve more than one function (and I think the discussion of hierarchy
confirms this - some people use links for structure and others for
traversal.) This makes generic implementations difficult. However I think
we are all extremely grateful to the authors of tools for implementing SAX,
XSL, DOM, XMLSchemas and so forth because they allow many of use to really
understand and start using these specifications in a communal way. Does
this seem possible with Xlink?

	P.


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From greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com  Tue Jan 25 17:57:21 2000
From: greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com (Barnowsky, Greg T.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath 
Message-ID: <950D48135359D211901A00104B9AE8A301826C8B@us-bb-exch-4.bb.unisys.com>

Microsoft has recently announced the support of XPath and XSLT in its XML
parser.  Can anyone tell me if I am currently searching XML Doc information
via VB Script
and what XPath will provide over my current script code?

Regards
Greg Barnowsky
Unisys Corporation

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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jan 25 18:20:29 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath 
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC02A9@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Barnowsky, Greg T. [mailto:greg.t.barnowsky@unisys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 12:56 PM
> 
> Microsoft has recently announced the support of XPath and 
> XSLT in its XML
> parser.  Can anyone tell me if I am currently searching XML 
> Doc information
> via VB Script
> and what XPath will provide over my current script code?

I'm not sure if I fully understand the question, but here is what the new
XSLT and XPath support mean for MSXML:

Currently, MSXML allows you to transform XML documents into other formats,
using an ancient form of XSL.  It also lets you use a language called XQL to
traverse XML documents.  (XQL was, I believe, an earlier precursor to
XPath.)

With the new version (slated to be released tomorrow in Beta), the
transformation language used will be real XSLT, as specified in the
finalized W3C spec.  Because XSLT uses XPath, Microsoft also had to update
their XPath implementation, so that XSLT would work properly.

MSXML's DOM implementation also uses XQL in some of its methods; for
example, there is a selectNodes() method which takes an XQL expression and
returns a node-set of all nodes matching your XPath expression.  So again,
the outdated XQL syntax currently in use will be replaced with real XPath.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mobileq.com
http://www.MobileQ.com

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From srn at techno.com  Tue Jan 25 18:20:40 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
In-Reply-To: <yqz2zotva2rw.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com> (message from Nils
	Klarlund on 24 Jan 2000 10:49:07 -0500)
References: <yqz2zotva2rw.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <200001251819.MAA01222@bruno.techno.com>

[Nils Klarlund:]
> XML should be about a universal and simple model of trees based on
> the linear syntax of XML 1.0, right?  Well, it's not.  I hope to
> generate a discussion of how the current multitude of models can be
> unified.  This message is long, reflecting the enormity of the
> confusion that's being sown.  And, I want to convince everybody
> who's interested that it'll be a conspicuous failure not to unify
> terminology and models; conversely, I believe that at a little
> price, involving a small amount of back-pedaling, XML could get an
> attractive and universal model.  Time is running out, however.

I continue to find it astonishing and frustrating that, despite the
fact that all this was already straightened out, and very cleanly
indeed, in the ISO/IEC 10744:1997 international standard, excellent
people like Nils Klarlund still don't know about it, or, if they do,
they choose to ignore it.  Nils's analysis of this situation fails to
even mention groves and property sets, much less compare their
carefully balanced elegance with the ongoing W3C design chaos that he
so deplores.

Meanwhile the W3C insists on reinventing everything, badly, in a state
of profound confusion about what they're doing, with predictable
results.  When ISO 10744 concepts are adopted by the W3C, as has
happened several times now, the underlying concepts that keep all the
concepts working well together and in balance with each other are
*not* adopted predictable results.  The DOM, for example, is
partly the result of adopting the SGML Property Set, without adopting
the concept of what a property set is and what a grove is.  (There are
other equally compelling examples.)

Hey, people, why not pay some attention to something that works, for a
change, instead of paying so much attention to the pathetic spectacle
of a dog chasing its own tail?  If the W3C were led rationally by
people with the public interest at heart, the fact that the relevant
ISO stuff actually works would get some serious attention there.  As
things are, it's a thought-crime punishable by excommunication even to
utter the dreaded ISO 10744 term "architectural form" within earshot
of the W3C.  Either they simply don't get it, or, if they do, they
have made their minds up and they don't want to be confused by the
facts.  Or they characterize themselves as political pragmatists,
making irresponsible technical decisions that are guided, first of
all, by the technical misunderstandings, irrational phobias, and pet
projects of Tim Berners-Lee.  After all, if their work runs afoul of
any of Tim's misunderstandings, phobias, or pet projects, it cannot be
adopted.  It's no wonder that technical things are such a mess at the
W3C: its structural problems are profound and intractable.

As Nils fears, maybe the W3C will reform its chaotic technical
situation after it's too late, after monopolistic commercial interests
have made the W3C's multi-flawed approaches irrelevant by simply
running them over.  However, after that has happened, much as we may
love Microsoft, we cannot expect the public interest to be served by
unregulated software monopolies.  We can expect to pay annual tribute
to them forever, not only in the form of money, but also (and much
more expensively) in the form of lost productivity, because of the
lack of effective marketplace competition.  That loss of productivity
hurts all of us, and all of our children, and all of our children's
children, indefinitely.  Think about how much work you have lost
because of Windows crashing, just for an exceptionally obvious (and
extremely irritating) example.  One of the W3C's structural problems
is that the business plans of the software monopolists who control the
W3C may actually benefit from a situation in which the W3C's many
excellent people cannot develop a comprehensive, sensible approach to
online information management and publishing.  The vacuum thus created
is a playground for software monopolists.

Although it's too much to ask, I hope that everyone who makes
technical decisions at the W3C will ponder my views, insist upon
structural reforms, and understand the unifying and balancing concepts
of ISO/IEC 10744.  (As one of the editors of 10744, I've been willing
and available to help them understand these ideas for the last three
years, but, despite repeatedly knocking on the door, I've been
uniformly excluded from all W3C undertakings.  Eliot Kimber, another
editor of 10744, was involved in W3C activities until he quit in
disgust when the recommendations of his committee were capriciously
overturned by the Director.)  The W3C's insistence on reinventing
everything, without understanding both the failures and successes of
preceding efforts, is childish, lazy, and extremely irresponsible.
Not to mention "dictatorial" -- a word which springs to mind because
of the lack of any lawful mechanism for removing Tim Berners-Lee from
a post for which he is obviously underqualified.  Perhaps the single
most profound structural problem at the W3C is the W3C Directorship's
absolute authority, which serves as a means of avoiding public
scrutiny of the W3C's private, very arguably
conspiracy-in-restraint-of-trade deliberations, while avoiding
antitrust prosecution under the Sherman Act.

Shame on the press for failing to make all this abundantly clear to
the public, whose interests the press is supposed to protect by
exposing exactly these kinds of issues.  It's discouraging that so
much of the press is in bed with Microsoft (a major, major advertiser)
and with the W3C ("I can't afford to alienate my access to a secret
process, man").  The W3C's enormous influence is the creature of the
press, as is the lack of influence garnered by ISO 10744.

Reform only comes by people thinking for themselves and doing whatever
seems best, even when nobody else is doing it.  It takes courage and
candor.  It's expensive for individuals (M.L. King springs to mind),
but it's the only way society makes any progress.  If your personal
comfort is more important to you than the progress of society and the
welfare of everyone, including but not limited to yourself, then I'm
wasting my breath.

-Steve

Note: The views expressed herein are exactly the same as those of my
      employer.

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
7101 Chase Oaks Boulevard 
Plano, Texas 75025 USA

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From Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Tue Jan 25 18:31:59 2000
From: Wdehora at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Bill dehOra)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA431@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>


:  Contrary to popular belief, the framers of our patent system 
:  were well 
:  aware that machines embodied ideas, which is why they 
:  allowed only specific 
:  embodiments of the basic ideas to be patented and not the ideas or 
:  algorithms behind them. So yes, I would accept a one-click 
:  patent based on 
:  gears and Jacquard looms, if Amazon cared to try to patent 
:  that embodiment 
:  of the idea. Of course they'd have to mention Babbage's 
:  prior art. I might 
:  even accept a specific electronic implementation on a 
:  particular computing 
:  machine, but there is a level of abstraction beyond which 
:  you can't go 
:  without strangling the source of ideas.

You can't simply patent the embodiment. That way one could get around
mechanical patents by changing the materials involved. You have to patent at
a more abstract level. 

  
: It works only to discourage small 
:  innovators and protect the interests of large corporations, 
:  who can afford the cost of initiating a patent search and application as 
:  well as the lawsuits.

This comes down to prior art I think, and perhaps that's why it's called
prior art, not prior idea. The cost is a result of the legal and economic
systems that are in place, not the nature of patents per se. this problem
was around before software patents became an issue.


:  The fact that there are two systems of protecting 
:  innovation, patents and 
:  copyright, is the embodiment of the wisdom of the original 
:  framers of our 
:  "intellectual property" laws. If you wanted to protect a 
:  machine, you used 
:  patents and could protect and license the physical 
:  embodiment of the idea 
:  but not the idea itself. If you wanted to protect an idea, you used 
:  copyright to protect your specific expression of the idea 
:  but, again, couldn't protect the idea itself.
:  Ideas were always exempted from any sort of protection 
:  because the purpose of both laws was to encourage the free expression of
and 
:  interchange of ideas.

You see, this where we part company. I don't think for a second that
algorithms are ideas, at least not in the hand waving, cafe-metaphysics
sense of the word. Algorithms are logico-mathematical descriptions, whose
described behaviour can be operationally embodied in machines. That makes
them functionally distinct from ideas (or at least a discernible subset). In
this sense, you can patent the  *algorithm* fooSort, but not the *idea* of
sorting. The problem in the US seems to be lack of consensus on the legal
definition of an algorithm, or the refusal to distinguish between algorithms
and ideas.

  
:  Copyright is an appropriate mechanism for protecting 
:  computer programs, not 
:  patent rights. But nobody bothers nowadays, since patents 
:  are a bigger club 
:  to thrash your competitors with.

That's a societal problem. The US patent office is hardly responsible for
the level of litigation witnessed in the US.
 

:  Phrased more-or-less in  that way, I 
:  have no doubt that one could have a jolly good try at 
:  patenting doorbells 
:  if no one at the Patent Office happened to notice the joke. Which I 
:  sincerely doubt they would, given their history.

You could, if there was as little prior art around as there was for Amazon's
patent. 

You could possibly take the conception of a doorbell process and turn it
into a sufficiently novel way of automatically ordering goods in software
that it would be a distinct innovation out of doorbells and unlike the
algorithm of existing systems. 


-Bill

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Tue Jan 25 18:49:56 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4ACCD@RED-MSG-08>

Regarding patenting the doorbell, I believe that Texas Instruments holds or
held a patent on user-activated input mechanisms that give feedback when
actuated.


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From bkline at rksystems.com  Tue Jan 25 18:55:15 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath 
In-Reply-To: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC02A9@cc20exch2.mobility.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001251354310.3214-100000@rksystems.com>

On Tue, 25 Jan 2000, Hunter, David wrote:

> the outdated XQL syntax currently in use will be replaced with real
> XPath.

Boy, it's certainly hard to keep up with all the flux in this business!
Are you saying that XQL is no longer a candidate for the syntax to be
adopted by the XML Query Language WG?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com



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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 19:05:36 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:36 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
In-Reply-To: <E12DA6c-000LFg-0B@finch-post-11.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAKEMEEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Peter,

link to archive you gave:
http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9705/0098.htm

I tries to reach the link you provided but got an empty page. Do you have
the right link, I am interested to read the message you mentionned.

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com  Tue Jan 25 19:27:00 2000
From: Mike.Champion at softwareag-usa.com (Michael Champion)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
References: <yqz2zotva2rw.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com> <200001251819.MAA01222@bruno.techno.com>
Message-ID: <039e01bf6769$8fd0dc40$efbdb3c7@WORKGROUP>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven R. Newcomb" <srn@techno.com>
To: <klarlund@research.att.com>
Cc: <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:19 PM
Subject: Re: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML
Infoset


>
> If the W3C were led rationally by
> people with the public interest at heart, the fact that the relevant
> ISO stuff actually works would get some serious attention there.  As
> things are, it's a thought-crime punishable by excommunication even to
> utter the dreaded ISO 10744 term "architectural form" within earshot
> of the W3C.  Either they simply don't get it,

I can say with some confidence that "they" don't get it.  I don't get it.
The DOM WG has wrestled with the ISO stuff and took out of it all that we
thought could use.  The SML-DEV people wrestled with the ISO stuff from
their fresh start at all this and don't get it either.  A lot of people who
are not not stupid or lazy or subject to anyone's irrational phobias have
tried and failed to understand what you see in the ISO specs that would lead
you to believe that they have solved in a useful way the problems we wrestle
with.

The "lack of influence garnered by ISO 10744" is, as near as I can tell, the
result of its difficulty for an ordinarily intelligent person to understand,
not a conspiracy involving Microsoft, the press, the W3C, or anyone else.
Point the world to a clarified, unified, readable exposition of the "ISO
stuff" that doesn't presume that one understands the entire SGML property
set and I assure you it will be given fair consideration by a lot of people.




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From edz at bsn.com  Tue Jan 25 19:40:49 2000
From: edz at bsn.com (Edward C. Zimmermann)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.20000125065432.013d8100@pop.intergate.ca> from "Tim Bray" at Jan 25, 0 06:55:36 am
Message-ID: <200001251948.UAA02809@shirley.bsn.com>

> bad out there.  It is very unlikely that any entrepreneur who wants to build
> and sell software can avoid infringing a couple of dozen horse-shit US
> patents.  
I think the situation is more extreme: its probably impossible for one to write *any*
functional computer program without infringing upon at least one patent in the US.
Luckily most of these patents don't get enforced--- in contrast to Trademarks one
does not need to enforce a patent. 

> 
> Einstein used to be a patent inspector in Switzerland.  Clearly the US 
> office maintains a lower standard.  -T.

I think one needs to understand the rules inspectors are working under: 
 The Manual of Patent Examining Procedure: http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/index.html
 see especially Chapter 21 http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/21.txt

Even when an inspector finds an appication to be "horse shit", I've been told
by several inspectors at US and European agencies, they still issue if the basic
formal criteria are met. Today's "true inspectors" are thus the courts so its a
battefield for lawyers and not inventors..


-- 
______________________
<A HREF="whois://rs.internic.net/ecz">Edward C. Zimmermann</A>
<A HREF="http://www.bsn.com/">Basis Systeme netzwerk/Munich</A>
Cellular: +49 (179) 205-0539


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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 19:57:53 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: About xlink tools
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMFEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Peter,

With my experiments in Didier's lab I found that if the browser support
scripting, the DOM and XSLT styling, then you have the ingredients to create
your own Xlink interpreter. For instance, an xlink:extended element can be
converted into:

a) a portal widget.
b) a context menu that appears when the user click on the link object.
c) an index table as found in books.

In fact, with these experiments, and I already posted a link to one of
these, I will post links to other ways to process an xlink:extended element.

The main point here is that, with XML+DOM+script+XSLT you have, in a certain
way, browsers that process data models, the behavior can be provided by the
author. The more I play with this, the more I think that what are in face of
is a new breed of language environement and that this environement is
closely related to environements like VB or Delphi. I'll explain what I mean
here:

a) The model or data is provided in the form of an XML document. For
programs like VB or Delphi the data is coming from a data source. Thus for a
browser aplication the data source is the XML document.
b) The model is transformed into HTML+script+DOM. Here, the best analogy
that I can find is that an HTML document that includes scripts are like
Delphi or VB programs. You have on one side a hierarchy of objects that are
laid on a scrollable surface. These objects, when hit by a user action
(through the mouse) emit events, these events are processed by event
handlers. Visual basic source document are structured in ways such as the
object hierarchy and their relative properties are first listed, then the
functions or event handlers and their content are following. We have now
such a structure with HTML where the objects are the HTML object. Each
object has its own property set, its own set of events. Scripts can contains
event handlers, functions and procedures. So, we have basically the same
structure as a visual basic form but instead of VB you have EcmaScript.
Interesting to note that few saw the resemblance. I encourage you to look at
an HTML document containing scripts and to look at a visual basic ".frm"
file (a text file), you'll be surprise how close these two structure are.
Hence, the XML document + XSLT can produce a program like vb. If it is a
program that I created, it can interpret the model in the way the program
creator though of.
c) the program created with XSLT is an interpreter. We created a layer
between the model (the XML document) and the user. We created a program that
can interpret the model in different ways .

So, what I discovered at Didier's lab is that using XSLT I did more than
simply creating style to the XML document. I was also able to create a
program, a way to interpret the XML document. If the XML document contains
links, I can therefore provide ways to interpret Xlinks. It means that the
browser does not need to include all possible behaviors. It means that the
browser is more a run time interpreter with a certain library of layout
objects already installed. It also means that a browser is more a framework
or a run time interpreter than an application.

So, last week, I listened to the thread about the browsers with interest and
saw that some see a browser as a kind of electronic book or electronic
document reader. For them the browser just render documents. For the others,
it is a run time, a library of layout object and a language to compose an
application.

Moreover, when an XML document contains a PI that links this latter to a
style sheet. We potentially created here an object. This object is composed
of data (the XML document) and behavior ( the HTML+Script created by the
XSLT transformation sheet). What is different from other object based
environments is that the program is composed at the last minute by XLST.
Thus, the program is composed on the basis of the model and if the model is
different or that it omit or add information elements, the resultant program
is different.

Nikita, last summer at XMLdev99 in Montreal, showed us that indeed with XML
+ XSLT we have now the possibilities to create a new bread of applications.

So, the paradigm that I am proposing here is that if an XML document
includes an XSLT transformation sheet that creates an HTML+Script entity, we
have created an object with a just in time mechanism. The just in time
mechanism compose the object base on the model. This different data model
leads to different objects. The resultant object is therefor not static and
creted once and for all but more an entity created on the type and structure
of data. Contrary to object oriented environments where the object is
static, in this case, the object is constructed on the basis on the model
(i.e the data, the XML document). As such the resultant object, provides an
interpretation to the model (i.e. the data). So, if the model includes an
XLink model, then the application can provide a particular interpretation to
some xlink entities. There is potentially as many xlink interpretation as
there is application created as mentionned earlier. For instance, the object
creator mya decide to use the list and anchor object from the HTML object
library. Each object has a certain behavior and has a certain set of events.
We can either keep the default behavior or overload the exiting one for our
particular xlink application.

In fact, we could as well create editors with this technique but political
issues prevent us to do so. To remove some of these political barriers, we
can hope that the Mozilla project will have more resources so that at least
a Mozilla release can happen this year. Meanwhile, for those having no
political agenda and just a desire to experiment or develop real life XML
apps, we unfortunately have only one choice.
If only the SUN, the IBM, the Oracle and the AOL of this world would simply
walk their talk....OK Didier, stop dreaming, this is not their goal. Their
goal is to knock their main competitor and make sales, not resolve our
problem (unless there is some money to make :-)


cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From dhunter at Mobility.com  Tue Jan 25 20:00:00 2000
From: dhunter at Mobility.com (Hunter, David)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath 
Message-ID: <805C62F55FFAD1118D0800805FBB428D02BC02AA@cc20exch2.mobility.com>

From: Bob Kline [mailto:bkline@rksystems.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:58 PM

> Boy, it's certainly hard to keep up with all the flux in this 
> business!
> Are you saying that XQL is no longer a candidate for the syntax to be
> adopted by the XML Query Language WG?

I'm not sure about that at all.  All I know is that the current MSXML uses a
querying language which Microsoft says is based on the XQL proposal[1], and
that the new parser will be using XPath instead.

I get the impression that XPath replaces XQL, but admit to not following
either of the specs closely enough to be able to answer with authority...

[1] http://www.w3.org/TandS/QL/QL98/pp/xql.html

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From KenNorth at email.msn.com  Tue Jan 25 20:11:59 2000
From: KenNorth at email.msn.com (KenNorth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]><m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain><388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk><4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com> <4.2.0.58.20000125071916.00bcbc90@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <00fa01bf6770$5718bba0$0b00a8c0@grissom>

Lee Anne Phillips wrote:


> They're implementing ideas originated by others, you'll
> notice. Why didn't IBM invent Java, or XML?

Granted the Java concept came from Sun, but many of the Java APIs are the
product of a collaborative effort. For example, when specifying JDBC, Sun
worked with IBM and database companies.

XML is not the invention of a single company. The XML specs are a
collaborative effort. The XML/XSL working groups include participants from a
variety of W3C members, including IBM.





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From greynolds at datalogics.com  Tue Jan 25 20:13:56 2000
From: greynolds at datalogics.com (Reynolds, Gregg)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <51ED3F5356D8D011A0B1006097C3073401B17172@martinique>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Edward C. Zimmermann [mailto:edz@bsn.com]
> Sent: None

> I think one needs to understand the rules inspectors are 
> working under: 
>  The Manual of Patent Examining Procedure: 
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/index.html
 see especially Chapter 21 http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/mpep/21.txt

Even when an inspector finds an appication to be "horse shit", I've been
told
by several inspectors at US and European agencies, they still issue if the
basic
formal criteria are met. Today's "true inspectors" are thus the courts so
its a
battefield for lawyers and not inventors..

I've heard the same.  Looks like there's a very nasty combination of bad
laws, underfunded agencies, overworked civil servants, and corrupt
politicians.  So maybe the thing to do would be to write one's Congressional
representatives in hopes of actually informing them of what is happening.
Very polite handwritten letters probably have the most influence.  Or
pressure one's government to just say no to patent pressure from the US.  

It's fun, but this thread is getting pretty remote from XML.  Maybe it
should migrate to another mailing list?

-gregg

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Tue Jan 25 20:16:01 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Arrgh! - FW: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0,
  DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
Message-ID: <200001252015.PAA23062@hesketh.net>

[Forwarded for Kevin Williams <Kevin.Williams@ultraprise.com>]

From: Kevin Williams <Kevin.Williams@ultraprise.com>
To: "'simonstl@simonstl.com'" <simonstl@simonstl.com>
Subject: RE: Arrgh! - FW: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, X
	PATH, and XML Infoset
Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:12:40 -0500

Am I missing something on this thread? Here's my understanding:

The Infoset is intended to describe all of the various entities that may
together comprise an XML document. If I may expand on your quote from the
Infoset last call WD:

"The XML information set does not require or favor a specific interface or
class of interfaces. This specification presents the information set as a
tree for the sake of clarity and simplicity, but there is no requirement
that the XML information set be made available through a tree structure;
other types of interfaces, including (but not limited to) event-based and
query-based interfaces are also capable of providing information conforming
to the information set."

The intent here seems to be to allow non-tree-based processors, such as SAX,
to abide by the Infoset specification. In other words, "Here's a pile of
things that are in an XML document. You have to have some of them, and you
can choose to leave others out. They also have to point to one another
somehow. The exact mechanism to be used is not specified in this document."
Otherwise, an event-driven parser like SAX could never conform to the
specification. I don't think the W3C is attempting to describe a content
model in the Infoset specification, but to open the door for non-tree
processors.

As an aside, in the data universe XML documents often are not structured as
trees. For example, in a project I've been working on for the mortgage
industry, a <Property> element may play several roles in a loan - it may be
the subject property, it may be a current address, it may be a piece of real
estate owned by a borrower, and so forth. To avoid repeating the same piece
of information more than once in a document, then, we use IDs and IDREFs to
point to the property, expressing it only once. In this case, a simple tree
structure falls short, and we need to "hop" from branch to branch. 

The subject of attributes is a trickier one. I think the chief problem is
that attributes are not ordered; in a tree, then, an attribute might have a
parent, and siblings, but not next and previous siblings. Perhaps it might
have been better to approach the problem as you state, with ordered and
unordered children in the model - however, I think that this is precisely
the model that the Infoset describes (while eschewing the terms "tree" and
"node" to avoid alienating the non-tree processors).

I think that the issue with attributes is really at the core of the problem
here - the fact that neither the DOM nor XPath treat attributes as "real"
nodes. In an application, however, I would think that the role played by
attributes and text elements would be clear and unambiguous, making a
construct such as "@* | node()" only necessary in more esoteric situations. 

While I agree that the language in the W3C specifications is ambiguous, even
obtuse, at times, I still feel strongly that imposing the tree structure on
every application that uses XML would be the wrong way to go. If we take
Infoset as a basis, and then assume that the tree-model processor mechanisms
(DOM) and the event-model processor mechanisms (SAX) inherit from it, I
don't think there's a problem - certainly if the DOM and XPath are in
disagreement, they should be resolved, as I would imagine XPath inherits
from the DOM model.

Here's a thought - perhaps there's a missing specification or two needed to
fill in the gaps. From Infoset (which is a descriptive model), we need to
derive two physical models - the tree-based model (very close to what you
described in your first post) and the event-based model (for SAX et. al.)
Indeed, perhaps there's room for a query-based model as well. Then, we would
have tree technologies such as the DOM and XPath using the tree-based model,
while SAX et. al. could use the event-based model. That way, the model would
be consistent throughout all of the tree-based technologies. (I'm assuming
here that the DOM should be treated as an API rather than a content model -
its name notwithstanding!)

Any thoughts?

- Kevin

Kevin Williams
Ultraprise Corporation (www.ultraprise.com)
Co-author, _Professional XML_ (Wrox Press)
 

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Tue Jan 25 20:25:16 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL
References: <00f701bf62a1$c673d580$b2e3cf87@research.att.com><023401bf644f$0dc547d0$361e12d1@WORKGROUP> <Version.32.20000124011356.00e98700@pop3.demon.co.uk>
Message-ID: <001301bf6773$0e288620$0201a8c0@tomshp>


Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
<snip size="huge"/>
>I think we have an opportunity here. Is there a role for (say) XML-DEV
>whitepapers? SAX, XSchema, DDML, and SML could fall into this category.
>They don't necessarily have to be "successful" - in that they get adopted -
>but they have to be seen as competent and innovative.

What an interesting idea!  Could we really do this?  Each paper would have
to have an editor, and hopefully a number of contributors.  The current
state of the draft would have to be accessible to all somewhere.  Just as in
the posts about SAX2, the editor could post key sections of the draft that
are being worked on, then post the final results of that section.  Because
this is likely to involve a lot of time, I picture these papers as being
short, compelling position papers on well-defined topics.  Otherwise it will
be hard to get them finished.

Could it really be published as coming from the XML-DEV list? Hmm...

Someone else jump in here, what do you think?

Tom Passin




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From jsweeney at chrystal.com  Tue Jan 25 20:45:35 2000
From: jsweeney at chrystal.com (Jim Sweeney)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
Message-ID: <FD65D092FB5FD311ADE40050047E4B401385B3@tessera.xsoft.sd.xerox.com>

I'm playing with the Quick Start for SAX example (using XP).  I find that
unless my DTD declaration is relative to my XML file, I get an error when
the app looks for the DTD.  It tacks the DTD system id onto the local
document path.

Is there an easy way to tell the parser that the DTD system id is absolute,
or do I have to write my own resolver?

Thanks!

Jim Sweeney

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Tue Jan 25 20:48:27 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (Thomas B. Passin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001250017470.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>
Message-ID: <003901bf6776$5d426f20$0201a8c0@tomshp>


Richard Tobin wrote, following uo on a number of previous posts:

> Another strangeness: if my interpretation of section 3.3.3 is right,
> and character entities for tab, cr and lf are not normalised to spaces,
> then this is a valid NMTOKENS attribute:
>
>   "foo &#x9; bar"
>
> but is not normalised to have a space character between the two
> tokens, which is "obviously" intended.
>
> It seems to me that it would make sense for tab, cr and lf entities to
> get normalised to spaces (and then compressed to a single space) for
> non-CDATA attributes.
>

The XML rec says

"4.4.5 Included in Literal
When an entity reference appears in an attribute value, or a parameter
entity reference appears in a literal entity value, its replacement text is
processed in place of the reference itself as though it were part of the
document at the location the reference was recognized, except that a single
or double quote character in the replacement text is always treated as a
normal data character and will not terminate the literal. "

This says that the processor will replace the entity with its value when the
entity is used in the value of an attribute.  Seems clear enough.

The rec also says

"3.3.3 Attribute-Value Normalization
Before the value of an attribute is passed to the application or checked for
validity, the XML processor must normalize it as follows:

a character reference is processed by appending the referenced character to
the attribute value
an entity reference is processed by recursively processing the replacement
text of the entity
a whitespace character (#x20, #xD, #xA, #x9) is processed by appending #x20
to the normalized value, except that only a single #x20 is appended for a
"#xD#xA" sequence that is part of an external parsed entity or the literal
entity value of an internal parsed entity
other characters are processed by appending them to the normalized value
If the declared value is not CDATA, then the XML processor must further
process the normalized attribute value by discarding any leading and
trailing space (#x20) characters, and by replacing sequences of space (#x20)
characters by a single space (#x20) character.

All attributes for which no declaration has been read should be treated by a
non-validating parser as if declared CDATA. "

This clearly says that normalizing down to a single space IS part of the
processing when an entity is used in an attribute value.


Tom Passin









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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Tue Jan 25 20:54:29 2000
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: my XSLT equipment
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F27844F@MDYNYCMSX1>

>After searching a translation XML Schema --> C++ declarations and SAX
liaison 
>(which I'm finally doing myself), I'm looking for the translation :

>XML Schema --> DTD

>I currently use XML Authoriy 1.1 demo version (of extensibility.com), but I
don't want to be dependant of it.

Part of the point of using schemas is that they can store more information
about your document type's structure than a DTD can, so going backwards
means a loss of information. It's a tougher process to automate because
sometimes judgment are necessary.

For now, I don't think you're going to find a better tool for this than
XML-Authority. Why don't you want to be dependent on it?

>But it's such an obvious need that it should be available somewhere.

Few people (besides the folks at Extensibility and IBM Alphaworks) want to
write code that manipulates the information in W3C Schema while the spec is
still a moving target--look how much it changed in its last revision. Once
its settled into Recommendation status, I'm sure you'll see many more tools
out there. 

Bob DuCharme          www.snee.com/bob           <bob@  
snee.com>  "The elements be kind to thee, and make thy
spirits all of comfort!" Anthony and Cleopatra, III ii

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From greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com  Tue Jan 25 21:54:32 2000
From: greg.t.barnowsky at unisys.com (Barnowsky, Greg T.)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath 
Message-ID: <950D48135359D211901A00104B9AE8A301826C8C@us-bb-exch-4.bb.unisys.com>

Sorry for the poorly worded question.  Let's see if this is a little better.


   If I am currently parsing through a well-formed and validated XML
document based on prior knowledge of it's schema using
   the Microsoft MSXML Component Model API and my favorite prog. language,
what does the support of XPath provide me? 
   For example, does it allow me to abstract parsing logic from code?  Is it
much faster than using the component API?

   I am currently processing the XML Document with no intentions to display
the information.  That is, this processing is 
   oriented to backoffice B2B operations, e.g. mappings, translations,
auditing, etc. not presentation on a Web Page.

Maybe I just have missed something in the spec, or am not familiar with the
quirks of XML to see if XPath for me provides any 
benefit.

Hope this clears it up.

Regards
Greg Barnowsky
Unisys Corporation

-----Original Message-----
From: Hunter, David [mailto:dhunter@Mobility.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:18 PM
To: 'Barnowsky, Greg T.'; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: RE: Querying the DOM using XPath 


From: Barnowsky, Greg T. [mailto:greg.t.barnowsky@unisys.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 12:56 PM
> 
> Microsoft has recently announced the support of XPath and 
> XSLT in its XML
> parser.  Can anyone tell me if I am currently searching XML 
> Doc information
> via VB Script
> and what XPath will provide over my current script code?

I'm not sure if I fully understand the question, but here is what the new
XSLT and XPath support mean for MSXML:

Currently, MSXML allows you to transform XML documents into other formats,
using an ancient form of XSL.  It also lets you use a language called XQL to
traverse XML documents.  (XQL was, I believe, an earlier precursor to
XPath.)

With the new version (slated to be released tomorrow in Beta), the
transformation language used will be real XSLT, as specified in the
finalized W3C spec.  Because XSLT uses XPath, Microsoft also had to update
their XPath implementation, so that XSLT would work properly.

MSXML's DOM implementation also uses XQL in some of its methods; for
example, there is a selectNodes() method which takes an XQL expression and
returns a node-set of all nodes matching your XPath expression.  So again,
the outdated XQL syntax currently in use will be replaced with real XPath.

David Hunter
david.hunter@mobileq.com
http://www.MobileQ.com

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 22:50:53 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL
In-Reply-To: <001301bf6773$0e288620$0201a8c0@tomshp>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAGEMIEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

Here is my modest first contribution to the XML-DEV editorial content. Maybe
OASIS can also keep a copy of the XML-DEV editorial content.

link: http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm

I will update the document based on the comments. I will as well add the
contributors to the contributor list in the document. It is actually a first
draft document. I tried to keep it short and sweet. Comments are more than
welcomed.

 To OASIS people: what about having a small area for XML-DEV editorial
content?

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Tue Jan 25 22:57:57 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: XMLNews newbie...
Message-ID: <388E2A9C.B9E64C1F@dyomedea.com>

Hi,

I am searching which XML format to use for writing news articles on a
web site.

XMLNews looks great, but I haven't found any recent information about
it's endorsement by new projects.

OCS and RSS are also interesting, but my understanding is that they
don't cover the content of the items, but rather their description.

OCS seems to be more global in it's coverage of a web site (describing
several channels), but I don't see how they can be compared or used
together.

Thanks for providing me any pointers or hints to continue is a right
direction !

Eric

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From martind at netfolder.com  Tue Jan 25 23:01:03 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL
In-Reply-To: <001301bf6773$0e288620$0201a8c0@tomshp>
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEMKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi Tomas,


Thomas said:
What an interesting idea!  Could we really do this?  Each paper would have
to have an editor, and hopefully a number of contributors.  The current
state of the draft would have to be accessible to all somewhere.  Just as in
the posts about SAX2, the editor could post key sections of the draft that
are being worked on, then post the final results of that section.  Because
this is likely to involve a lot of time, I picture these papers as being
short, compelling position papers on well-defined topics.  Otherwise it will
be hard to get them finished.

Could it really be published as coming from the XML-DEV list? Hmm...

Someone else jump in here, what do you think?

Didier replies:
I think that this is a wonderful idea. If OASIS is good enough to provide us
a directory where all our documents could be stored so that all xml-dev
members can have access to it. Because OASIS is courteous to host the
XML-DEV list, maybe they could be even more courteous and store our
editorial production. If for any reasons, it is impossible for OASIS, I am
sure that among us we can find someone who can be as courteous as OASIS and
store our editorial content.

And because I have the habit to walk my talk, I already wrote a small paper
about the table of content pattern to be added to the XML-DEV editorial
content (ref: http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm)

Cheers
Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
Email: martind@netfolder.com
Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
Products: http://www.netfolder.com


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From harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com  Tue Jan 25 23:21:29 2000
From: harvey at eccnet.eccnet.com (Betty L. Harvey)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL
In-Reply-To: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAOEMKEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001251809590.12494-100000@eccnet.eccnet.com>



On Mon, 24 Jan 2000, Didier PH Martin wrote:

> Didier replies:
> I think that this is a wonderful idea. If OASIS is good enough to provide us
> a directory where all our documents could be stored so that all xml-dev
> members can have access to it. Because OASIS is courteous to host the
> XML-DEV list, maybe they could be even more courteous and store our
> editorial production. If for any reasons, it is impossible for OASIS, I am
> sure that among us we can find someone who can be as courteous as OASIS and
> store our editorial content.
> 

If OASIS can't, I have space that I can make available.  If some
person/people want to administer the information, I can provide remote
access.

Betty

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
Betty Harvey                         | Phone: 301-540-8251 FAX: 4268
Electronic Commerce Connection, Inc. | 
13017 Wisteria Drive, P.O. Box 333   | 
Germantown, Md.  20874               |
harvey@eccnet.com                    | Washington,DC SGML/XML Users Grp
URL:  http://www.eccnet.com          | http://www.eccnet.com/xmlug/
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/  



> And because I have the habit to walk my talk, I already wrote a small paper
> about the table of content pattern to be added to the XML-DEV editorial
> content (ref: http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm)
> 
> Cheers
> Didier PH Martin
> ----------------------------------------------
> Email: martind@netfolder.com
> Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
> Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
> Products: http://www.netfolder.com
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
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> 
> Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer to OASIS.
> 


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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 26 00:00:19 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Further work on Xlink
In-Reply-To: <388E1461.FE7F0A4@isogen.com>
References: <E12DA6c-000LFg-0B@finch-post-11.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <E12DFsc-000Pf6-0C@finch-post-12.mail.demon.net>

At 03:23 PM 1/25/00 -0600, W. Eliot Kimber wrote:
>Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
>
>> postings(http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/9705/0098.htm and

Sorry, I got this link wrong. [It came off or local CDROM] It should be:


http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/xml-dev-May-1997/0098.html

	P.

>
>Peter, 
>
>I couldn't get to this URL. Is it correct? I was interested to see what
>I had written.
>
>Thanks,
>
>E.
> 

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From paul at prescod.net  Wed Jan 26 00:15:10 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: FW: Arrgh! - FW: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0,DOM, 
 XPATH, and XML Infoset
References: <200001241706.MAA28650@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <388E3CDA.916797EC@prescod.net>

"Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> 
> From: Kevin Williams <Kevin.Williams@ultraprise.com>
> 
> >Here are the issues I have with Nils' comments:
> >
> >1. The Infoset is not the same as the DOM. The Infoset does not imply a tree
> >structure. The Infoset should never imply a tree structure, as it's intended
> >to describe the behavior of non-node-oriented processors such as SAX.

The infoset implies a tree structure because XML implies a tree
structure:

"""Exactly one of the element information items corresponds to the 
document element (the root of the element tree), and all other 
element information items are contained within the document element, 
either directly or indirectly."""

What the infoset does NOT DO is require implementations to directly
expose that tree structure. The DOM is a particular API which should be
based on the information set. It happens to be tree strucuted so it
directly exposes the tree 

> >4. Nils appears to be obsessed with terminology in the XML 1.0
> >specification, which is significantly out of date at this point. 

Egad. Heaven help us when the DOM and XPath start telling us what to
read into XML 1.0! It is, after all, much more widely implemented and
documented and is not, in my personal opinion "out of date" at all.

> > For
> >example, the current way of thinking says that there's a Document node,
> >which must have exactly one Element child node. XML 1.0 says something
> >slightly different, but that's not important.

What does XML say that is different?

> >While I agree that the W3C specifications can go a little heavy on the
> >jargon, I think that the way the specifications are constructed is necessary
> >and correct. The last thing we need is to see all of these different specs
> >munged together into one "unified" specification that limits the available
> >functionality of XML as it exists today. 

So you are arguing against logical and terminlogical consistency??

> > Perhaps Nils would be happier with
> >SML, with no pesky attributes to worry about...

It wouldn't help...there are lots of other problems. The handling of
text in the DOM and XPath is a particular nightmare.

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
The new revolutionaries believe the time has come for an aggressive 
move against our oppressors. We have established a solid beachhead 
on Friday. We now intend to fight vigorously for 'casual Thursdays.'
  -- who says America's revolutionary spirit is dead?

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 26 02:52:54 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]>
	 <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
	 <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk> <4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com>
Message-ID: <388E609B.40DD@hiwaay.net>

Lee Anne Phillips wrote:
> 
> Having too many patents laying about is like hardening
> of the arteries; it will kill you sooner or later.

Or maybe it takes the vision to choose well.  Unisys owned 
IDE/AS in 1991.  It was a well-formed SGML browser using 
stylesheets, hyperlinks, Windows, scripts, even ran as a 
network app on the Novell network.  EBT had a similar 
system using the scrolling technique.  Had either of these 
groups taken out patents on their *innovations* some measure 
of that bubble might be in other hands and a certain english 
network engineer might still be working beneath a steam pipe.  
In both cases, they chose wisely while perhaps their management 
did not.  Instead, now their work is prior art and while it 
has not made its builders incredibly wealthy, it protects 
what it could not corral.

Innovation, like Crichton's dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, has a 
way of changing rules, blinding fools, and escaping the island.

Be of good cheer; even fossils can migrate.

len


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From martind at netfolder.com  Wed Jan 26 03:00:12 2000
From: martind at netfolder.com (Didier PH Martin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: New version of the Table of contents document
Message-ID: <NBBBJPGDLPIHJGEHAKBAMEMPEMAA.martind@netfolder.com>

Hi,

Since this afternoon I got some comments and myself, I checked again the
document. This lead to a new version which is posted at:

http://www.netfolder.com/xlink/TOC_pattern.htm

Up to now, we have an offer from Betty L. Harvey to host the XML-DEV
Editorial content. We'll wait a couple of days for an answer from OASIS.
Thanks for your generous offer Betty.

Didier PH Martin
----------------------------------------------
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Conferences: Web New York (http://www.mfweb.com)
Book to come soon: XML Pro published by Wrox Press
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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan 26 03:13:21 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: XMLNews newbie...
In-Reply-To: Eric van der Vlist's message of "Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:58:36 +0100"
References: <388E2A9C.B9E64C1F@dyomedea.com>
Message-ID: <m3ya9dr0gg.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Eric van der Vlist <vdv@dyomedea.com> writes:

> I am searching which XML format to use for writing news articles on a
> web site.
> 
> XMLNews looks great, but I haven't found any recent information about
> it's endorsement by new projects.

Here's the situation in a nutshell:

XMLNews-Story is a subset of NITF (News Industry Text Format), which
now has its own .org:

  http://www.nitf.org/

XMLNews-Story is actually based on a slightly earlier draft than the
one at that site, but they still seem to be compatible.

NITF itself, however, is in a bit of a confusing position -- after
tinkering with NITF (which used to be called UTF) for several years,
the NAA (Newspaper Association of America) and the IPTC (International
Press Telecommunications Council) have started work on something
completely new called NewsML.

So, is NITF out the window before it really got started?  It depends
on who you talk to.  Some people claim that NITF and NewsML will be
complementary -- that is, that NewsML will be more like XMLNews-Meta,
and that NITF will continue to the be standard for news copy; others
claim that NITF is essentially deprecated now, and the NewsML will
replace it completely.

XMLNews is supported by WAVO and iSyndicate, the two major North
American news amalgamators -- they're the middlemen (and women) who
collect the individual feeds from Reuters, Dow Jones, etc. and sell
them in packages to the major customers.  That means that, in a
sort-of sneaky way, many or most of the major feeds are or soon will
be available in XMLNews and NITF regardless.  Everyone agrees that it
would be better for the XML markup to be added at source, though.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 26 03:20:14 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <3.0.32.20000125065432.013d8100@pop.intergate.ca>
Message-ID: <388E63D2.3A22@hiwaay.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
>  
> Einstein used to be a patent inspector in Switzerland.  Clearly the US
> office maintains a lower standard.  -T.

Perhaps, but Einstein is buried here so at least we have a decent plot.

len



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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 26 03:20:31 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000125191927.0150c9a0@pop.intergate.ca>

And let us remember the brief flurry of interest last year when it turned
out that Microsoft (apparently not the IE guys, who were convincingly
baffled) was granted a patent more or less on the notion of stylesheets.
Totally ridiculous given the prior art, and after a couple of ill-conceived
and quickly-forgotten PR miscues, MS wisely let the silly thing die a 
quiet and merciful death; this should serve as an example to the rest of
the industry. 

Just recently Yahoo got a patent on the notion of serving web pages
by caching data in memory and using it to fill templates at run-time.

My brother is an industrial designer, and co-holder of a patent for an
ingenious doohickey that mixes gas samples quickly and efficiently in
support of gas-chromatograph applications.  You should have seen the
work they had to do to get it.  A different universe... 
 -Tim

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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 26 03:20:04 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]><m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain><388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk><4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com> <4.2.0.58.20000125071916.00bcbc90@shell16.ba.best.com> <00fa01bf6770$5718bba0$0b00a8c0@grissom>
Message-ID: <388E664A.2A10@hiwaay.net>

KenNorth wrote:

> Granted the Java concept came from Sun, but many of the Java APIs are the
> product of a collaborative effort. For example, when specifying JDBC, Sun
> worked with IBM and database companies.

Errrm..no.  The idea of the virtual machine had been around for some 
time before Java was implemented.  That has been brought up in several 
forums.  Java is as much a trademark as anything else.
 
> XML is not the invention of a single company. The XML specs are a
> collaborative effort. The XML/XSL working groups include participants from a
> variety of W3C members, including IBM.

XML is not an invention.  It is a specification which originates in the 
intellectual property of ISO 8879, and prior to that, in efforts of 
individual groups to solve problems with interoperable publishing
formats. 
That is why XML is referred to as a subset and not an application of 
SGML.

You'll also find that some SGML systems documented their required tags 
in instance format, not DTDs, so even the schemas have prior art.

Nothing GNU under the Sun.

len


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Wed Jan 26 03:20:14 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk> <4.2.0.58.20000124221653.0097ec90@shell16.ba.best.com> <m37lgyrzz2.fsf@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <388E632A.6DFE@hiwaay.net>

David Megginson wrote:

> Or, to put it differently, patenting generic software algorithms is
> like patenting move plots or business strategies.  The good news is
> that most technologically-advanced countries in the world agree, and
> do not allow software patents; the bad news is that the U.S. doesn't
> agree, and worse, its patent office has proven itself technically
> inept for the patents it does grant.

Well, David, at the risk of starting an international squabble, I 
note you relish bashing the Americans while remaining 
curiously silent about the MPEG patents of the French and Germans 
as this technology is being wed to otherwise open standards. 
That MP3 player on your laptop is licensed tech.

A friend of mine is a patent officer.  I brought the issue up 
to him and he says that they like so many others have not the 
time or expertise to take on the flood of software patent 
applications.  

Some like the MS patent on stylesheets can be fairly 
quickly overturned if anyone with resources cares to do it.  
Will they?  Most of us know the prior art exists.  

As for our silly government, if we didn't have them, who else 
would restrain us?

len the wickedly amused



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From w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz  Wed Jan 26 05:26:49 2000
From: w.hedley at auckland.ac.nz (Warren Hedley)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Hyphens vs underscores in element names
Message-ID: <388E857E.695D8B4C@auckland.ac.nz>

Hello XML-DEV

One of the more popular arguments between the development team for
FieldML regards a convention for the naming of elements and
attributes in our ML collection. The debate focuses over whether
we should use underscores (num_elements), hyphens (num-elements),
capitalisation (numElements) or runtogether (numelements). We've
eliminated capitalisation and runtogether because they don't
look as nice, and are now reduced to hyphens vs. underscores. The
older part of the development team is familiar with Fortran and C
and are keen to use underscores. However I've noticed in a brief
survey (results below) that most of the W3C-endorsed stuff seems
to feature minus signs.

Can anyone suggest any compelling reasons for going either way?
Does anyone want to add more data to my survey?

The Fortran coders also argued that there might be confusion with
arithmetic minus signs, if an application was to display something
like "mesh-1 - element-1", where "mesh-1" and "element-1" are
identifying attributes of type NMTOKEN (would have used ID but we
don't require uniqueness within a file). However since I cannot
prevent someone from using hyphens in an attribute value (without
resorting to schema validation), I don't think this holds. The
argument continued that users would be encouraged to use underscores
in identifiers if the element names also used underscores.

Begin Survey Results
====================

Hyphens (last 2 not XML applications, but W3C) :

XSLT = <for-each>, <call-template>, etc.
XPath & XPointer = ancestor-or-self, etc
SMIL = <root-layout> @skip-content
W3C spec names = REC-DOM-Level-1-19981001
XHTML module names = xhtml11-tableb-1.mod

Underscores :

BioML = <dna_type> <keep_space> (not W3C)

Runtogether (I suspect this was chosen for legacy reasons ??) :

MathML = <maligngroup>
XHTML = <textarea> @colspan

Capitalisation (not all W3C WDs or Notes) :

XML-Schema = <unparsedEntity> @schemaName
SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) = <animateMotion>
CDF (Channel Description Format) = <PublicationDate>
TEI (Text Encoding Initiative) = <docImprint>
OCS (Open Content Syndication) = <updatePeriod>

End Survey Results
==================

In case anyone is interested, FieldML is a language for marking up
spatially and time varying fields, targeted at finite element
packages (in particular some software developed at Auckland called
CMISS). The development of FieldML can be followed here

http://www.esc.auckland.ac.nz/sites/physiome/fieldml/pages/

-- 
Warren Hedley
Department of Engineering Science
Auckland University
New Zealand

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Wed Jan 26 08:40:39 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Hyphens vs underscores in element names
In-Reply-To: <388E857E.695D8B4C@auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <E12DO0C-000G21-0A@finch-post-10.mail.demon.net>

At 06:26 PM 1/26/00 +1300, Warren Hedley wrote:
>Hello XML-DEV

Greetings!

>
>One of the more popular arguments between the development team for
>FieldML regards a convention for the naming of elements and
>attributes in our ML collection. The debate focuses over whether
>we should use underscores (num_elements), hyphens (num-elements),
>capitalisation (numElements) or runtogether (numelements). We've
>eliminated capitalisation and runtogether because they don't
>look as nice, and are now reduced to hyphens vs. underscores. The
>older part of the development team is familiar with Fortran and C
>and are keen to use underscores. However I've noticed in a brief
>survey (results below) that most of the W3C-endorsed stuff seems
>to feature minus signs.
>
>Can anyone suggest any compelling reasons for going either way?
>Does anyone want to add more data to my survey?

In scientific/technical areas it is highly likely that you are going to
need to write code for at least some of your elements, especially if they
relate to numeric or other non-textual data. In this case it is natural to
name the classes/variables in a way that reflects the XML names. If you
include punctuation which is reserved in the implementation language you
may hit problems. '-' and '.' are particularly common. For example, we
discovered to our disappointment that our domain name (xml-cml.org) could
not be used as a package name in Java, i.e.:
package org.xml-cml;
cannot contain a '-'

In naming elements in CML (Chemical Markup Language)
[http://www.xml-cml.org] I tried to avoidconcatenatedwords, but did it for
some attribute values
<bond>
  <string builtin="atomRef">a1</string>
  <string builtin="atomRef">a2</string>      
</bond>
[We may move to an alternative representation later (e.g.
<atomRef>...</atomRef>)]

In writing DOM-based code I have things like:
public class BondImpl extends CMLBase implements Bond {...}
If anything in those names is reserved punctuation you have to modify the
scheme.

	P.




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From Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk  Wed Jan 26 11:21:22 2000
From: Andy.Bradbury at syntegra.bt.co.uk (Andy.Bradbury@syntegra.bt.co.uk)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Geoworks and their patent
Message-ID: <65AF45D5E535D2118AFB0008C7FA2318035A9B4E@FL-EXCHANGE-03>


Len Bullard wrote:
>
>As an electorate, we aren't good at multiple issues and certainly 
>don't have candidates that understand technical ones.  The big 
>Internet issue de jour will be taxing it.  Sorry, you'll have 
>to wait another five years to bring up software patents. :-)
>OTOH, by then, the stock bubble will have burst and we will 
>have other worries.

Doesn't Al Gore claim to have invented the term 'Super Information Highway'?
Not that that proves anything, I guess :?)

Regards

Andy B.

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Wed Jan 26 13:02:38 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <003901bf6776$5d426f20$0201a8c0@tomshp>
Message-ID: <86mr98$4b9$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <003901bf6776$5d426f20$0201a8c0@tomshp>,
Thomas B. Passin <tpassin@idsonline.com> wrote:
>The XML rec says

For character references, the table in 4.4 specifies "Included" rather
then "Included in literal", but in any case, the first point in
section 3.3.3 ("a character reference is processed...") must be
explaining the same thing (rather than something that happens
afterwards), otherwise there would be no character references present.

The algorithm in 3.3.3 applied to a non-CDATA attribute

   "foo &#x9; bar"

will first replace the character reference with a tab character, so we
will have

  space tab space

Then the "further processing" will do nothing, because there are no
sequences of more than one space character.

The only way that the tab could become a space is if both the first
and third points of section 3.3.3 were applied to it, but the natural
reading is that those points are alternatives.

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From KenB at bristol.com  Wed Jan 26 14:08:35 2000
From: KenB at bristol.com (KenB)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:37 2004
Subject: Hyphens vs underscores in element names
Message-ID: <85256872.004DD00D.00@bristolhq.bristol.com>


You wrote:

One of the more popular arguments between the development team for
FieldML regards a convention for the naming of elements and
attributes in our ML collection. The debate focuses over whether
we should use underscores (num_elements), hyphens (num-elements),
capitalisation (numElements) or runtogether (numelements). We've
eliminated capitalisation and runtogether because they don't
look as nice, and are now reduced to hyphens vs. underscores. The
older part of the development team is familiar with Fortran and C
and are keen to use underscores. However I've noticed in a brief
survey (results below) that most of the W3C-endorsed stuff seems
to feature minus signs.

Can anyone suggest any compelling reasons for going either way?
Does anyone want to add more data to my survey?


>> The most compelling reason to go with undercore is the C/C++and other
languages
>> issue.  Its not just a matter of compilers.  There are a lot of new tools on
the
>> horizon that are/will be dealing with XML schemas and programming code.
These
>> tools will need to share symbol tables between the programming language and
>> the element/attribute names.  This is a lot easier if you don't have to
change
>> element tags programmatically to something that the language compilers will
>> like.

>> For example, its cool to have a code browser be able to click on an element
tag
>> and automatically jump directly to the C++ class that implements that tag.
In
>> eXactML, we clean up any XML tags that are not valid C++/Java symbols when
>> we generate the output code.  This works fine, but symbols that have to be
>> scrubbed can't take as much advantage of VC++ navigation.

>> Its a pretty minor nit, but if its a simple choice of keeping symbols
friendly to both
>> environments, then thats the way to go.

Ken Blackwell
Bristol





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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Wed Jan 26 14:48:17 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Hyphens vs underscores in element names
References: <388E857E.695D8B4C@auckland.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <388F090E.8E6C8EE5@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>


> One of the more popular arguments between the development team for
> FieldML regards a convention for the naming of elements and
> attributes in our ML collection. 

[...]

> Can anyone suggest any compelling reasons for going either way?

Consistency: you are already using capitalization in FieldML

Best regards

Stefan

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From jrgardn at emory.edu  Wed Jan 26 14:42:51 2000
From: jrgardn at emory.edu (John Robert Gardner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Oracle & Z39.50- PL/SQL or Java gizmo?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001250017470.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001260938440.26467-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu>


Our project with the rafts of data for library-related and private access,
via Z39.50 protocol (preference for full facility support) is reaching the
stage where our DBA wants to prototype a Z39.50 mechanism for accessing
the test bed server, while our SIM Z39.50 (which _completely_ rocks with
Z39.50) develops other mechanisms alongside.

Does anyone know of such a PL/SQL or Java Z39.50 interface and sample
which we could look at for Oracle?

thanks,

jr


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=
John Robert Gardner
ATLA-CERTR
Emory University
------------------------------------------------------------
http://vedavid.org/diss/
"If there is something you're thinking of doing, or wish you could do,
begin it.  In boldness there is mystery and power . . . . "  -Goethe



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From francis at redrice.com  Wed Jan 26 15:13:09 2000
From: francis at redrice.com (Francis Norton)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Querying the DOM using XPath
References: <950D48135359D211901A00104B9AE8A301826C8C@us-bb-exch-4.bb.unisys.com>
Message-ID: <388F0EE6.C380B7E7@redrice.com>



"Barnowsky, Greg T." wrote:
>    If I am currently parsing through a well-formed and validated XML
> document based on prior knowledge of it's schema using
>    the Microsoft MSXML Component Model API and my favorite prog. language,
> what does the support of XPath provide me?

Xpath support gives you a very much more productive way of navigating
and querying the XML document compared to "pure" DOM, eg the DOM
getAttribute() and getElementsByTagName() methods and the childNodes
property for element / attribute operations; and the DOM normalize()
method and Text interface for text values.

MSXML already had workrounds for these areas, but these were
experimental and used now-outdated proto-standards. The advantage to
using XPath is that you will be using the same powerful and
well-reviewed standard as other useful XML tools such as XSLT or the
Schematron.

> 
>    I am currently processing the XML Document with no intentions to display
> the information.  That is, this processing is
>    oriented to backoffice B2B operations, e.g. mappings, translations,
> auditing, etc. not presentation on a Web Page.
> 
> Maybe I just have missed something in the spec, or am not familiar with the
> quirks of XML to see if XPath for me provides any
> benefit.
> 
XPath is also included in XSLT, but you don't need to be doing XSLT
document transformations to exploit the power of XPath. (In fact I have
found XSLT very useful for B2B work, you may well want to look at it for
your translations.)

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From jsweeney at chrystal.com  Wed Jan 26 16:11:06 2000
From: jsweeney at chrystal.com (Jim Sweeney)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
Message-ID: <FD65D092FB5FD311ADE40050047E4B401385BD@tessera.xsoft.sd.xerox.com>

My original question was a little confusing, so I'm posting a clarification
I sent to Bill:

====================================
Yes, the DTD exists in the directory specified by an absolute path such as: 

<!DOCTYPE foo SYSTEM "c:\xml\dtd\foo.dtd">

but if the XML file with the above reference is in c:\xml\files\, I get a
"FileNotFoundException: c:\xml\files\c:\xml\dtd\foo.dtd" when I attempt to
execute "java SAXApp file:///C:/xml/files/foo.xml"

if I change the DOCTYPE reference to:

<!DOCTYPE foo SYSTEM "foo.dtd">

it finds the DTD and the document is parsed.  It's like the application is
hardwired to assume the system id is a relative path.  I'd like to know how
to make my SAX/XP app accept an absolute DTD path.

Jim Sweeney

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sparkman Bill [mailto:Sparkman_Bill@ems.prc.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2000 1:24 PM
> To: 'Jim Sweeney'
> Subject: RE: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
> 
> 
> Hi jim:
> 
> I'm confused.  
> Does the DTD exist?
> Is it where the dtd tag in the xml file says it will be?
> It does not seem like you should be getting an error like this.
> 
> Bill 
> 

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From david at megginson.com  Wed Jan 26 16:50:49 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
In-Reply-To: Jim Sweeney's message of "Wed, 26 Jan 2000 08:15:22 -0800"
References: <FD65D092FB5FD311ADE40050047E4B401385BD@tessera.xsoft.sd.xerox.com>
Message-ID: <m3vh4grd6a.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Jim Sweeney <jsweeney@chrystal.com> writes:

> Yes, the DTD exists in the directory specified by an absolute path such as: 
> 
> <!DOCTYPE foo SYSTEM "c:\xml\dtd\foo.dtd">

What happens if you make that a proper URI, i.e.

  file:/c|xml/dtd/foo.dtd

or whatever Windows people do?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Wed Jan 26 17:19:35 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Referencing the results of prior queries with XQL
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261135180.4029-100000@rksystems.com>

[I'm posting this here, rather than in the XQL mailing list, which
appears to be very close to moribund.]

The latest version of the XQL draft says, "The nodes which form the
input to a query may come from a variety of different sources.  They may
be the result of a prior query, ...."  It doesn't, however, say how a
query would identify these results (in fact, it goes on: "XQL does not
specify how these nodes are brought to the query.").

I would have thought that such queries would be fairly common, and
further that it would be useful (and necessary for interoperability and
portability of tools) to have the syntax for such queries specified.

Here's an example (a real one).  A repository containing medical
diagnosis and treatment information consists of documents which
(simplified) look like this:

<CdrDoc>
 <DocId>04007026</DocId>
 ... // rest of document
</CdrDoc>

A complex query is submitted, which returns something like the
following:

<xql:result>
 <DocId>04007026</DocId>
 <DocId>12480279</DocId>
 ... // several hundred more document IDs
</xql:result>

The user now wants to refine the search ("which of these documents
contain descriptions of experimental cancer treatment protocols?")  
without incurring the cost of repeating the work done for the original
query.  Now, it would be possible to construct the new query, embedding
a clause which enumerated all of the document IDs returned by the first
query:

   ...[ ... and (DocId = "04007026" or DocId = "12480279" or ... )] ...

but that's clearly not the most elegant solution.  Similar cases are
presented for exclusions ("which documents in the repository match these
criteria, excluding the list of documents I got when I submitted the
same query last month?") or unions.

We could come up with our own private solution to this, of course, but
do we really want to have every project on the planet which does this
sort of XQL querying to come up with a different syntax?  Is there a
later XQL draft than the one I've found (August of last year) which
addresses this issue more satisfactorily, or have others on this list
wrestled with this problem?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com




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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Wed Jan 26 18:35:45 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (Uche Ogbuji)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: ANN: 4DOM 0.9.2
Message-ID: <388F3E73.292C7526@fourthought.com>

FourThought LLC (http://FourThought.com) announces the release of

                             4DOM 0.9.2
                      -----------------------
                An XML/HTML Python library using the
                  Document Object Model interface

4DOM is a Python library for XML and HTML processing and manipulation
using the W3C's Document Object Model for interface.  4DOM implements
DOM Core level 2, HTML level 2 and Level 2 Document Traversal.

4DOM should work on all platforms supported by Python.  If you have
any problems with a particular platform, please e-mail the authors.

4DOM is designed to allow developers rapidly design applications
that read, write or manipulate HTML and XML.

News
----

 - Major fixes to namespace code
 - Other bug-fixes

More info and Obtaining 4DOM
----------------------------

Please see

        http://FourThought.com/4Suite/4DOM

Or you can download 4DOM from

        ftp://FourThought.com/pub/4Suite/4DOM

4DOM is distributed under a license similar to that of Python.


-- 
Uche Ogbuji
FourThought LLC, IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://FourThought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org

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From chipx86 at portaldesign.net  Wed Jan 26 19:12:14 2000
From: chipx86 at portaldesign.net (Christian Hammond)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: xml:lang: Am I doing more work than I need to be?
Message-ID: <20000126111137.F14545@C-sik.lilo.cx>

I have been working on development of a XML parser over the past month. It
doesn't use SAX (please don't hurt me! :), but its main strength is the
ability to load modules for handling different namespaces on-the-fly. I have
been working on getting xml:lang support implemented, but there is one thing
I'm confused about. Perhaps I didn't read the specs clearly enough, but I
couldn't find the information I need.

Let's say in your XML file, you have:

<p xml:lang="en">
 ..
</p>
<p xml:lang="en-GB">
 ..
</p>

If a user has "en" set as his preferred language, I imagine the first <p> will
be processed, but the second won't. Now, if the user has en-GB set has the
preferred language, I would imagine the second would be processed. What about
the first then? If that second <p> didn't exist, would the first ever get
processed? Or is "en" always processed if "en-*" is set?

Christian Hammond

-- 
Christian Hammond - chipx86@portaldesign.net
Portal Web Design - http://www.portaldesign.net
   A hacker does for love what others would not do for money.

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From tbray at textuality.com  Wed Jan 26 19:35:29 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: xml:lang: Am I doing more work than I need to be?
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000126113316.01487180@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:11 AM 1/26/00 -0800, Christian Hammond wrote:
> I have
>been working on getting xml:lang support implemented, but there is one thing
>I'm confused about. Perhaps I didn't read the specs clearly enough, but I
>couldn't find the information I need.

xml:lang is just an ordinary XML attribute that is reserved for the
(very common) purpose of an author language-labeling pieces of data.
There is no specification about what ought to be done with it anywhere.

The right thing to do varies from application to application. -T.


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From dbox at develop.com  Wed Jan 26 19:40:18 2000
From: dbox at develop.com (Box, Don)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: ANN: MSXML 2.6 shipped today
Message-ID: <824EAE80328AD311B2590090276267820AE19E@mail.develop.com>

http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/webtechnology/xml/msxml.asp

DB
http://www.develop.com/dbox



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From tyler at infinet.com  Wed Jan 26 21:20:13 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388F646F.6A7D62E@infinet.com>

Vilya Harvey wrote:

> David Megginson wrote:
> > In general, though, are there any recent examples of the big tech
> > companies (i.e. Microsoft, IBM, Sun, etc.) trying to enforce a
> > software patent?
>
> The obvious example that springs to mind is Unisys and their patent on a
> particular compression technique (was it LZW compression?). The patent
> covered compressed GIF files, among other things, and was the cause of
> much consternation for the global graphics community. Unisys have been
> fairly active about enforcing the patent too, I believe.
>
> An interesting point though, is the response that this generated: the
> enforcement of the patent on GIF files led directly to the development of
> the (superior) public domain PNG file format, which is slowly but surely
> replacing GIF as one of the formats of choice for images on the web. I
> think there's probably a lesson in that somewhere...

Yes, but sometimes there is no better way to do a simple obvious thing that should never
of been patented in the first place. If someone were able to patent water (which is not to
crazy of an idea judging by how liberal the US patent office is), how on earth would
anyone be able to find a good substitute. I think that many large corporations (Unisys
excluded) who have an interest in public opinion don't enforce their many patents nearly
as much as some of the smaller companies who are in the "patent business", precisely
because they fear being loathed by developers in the manner that Unisys has become
universally loathed as a lame company by just about everyone I know in the technology
business.

If software patents are to stay around, I feel that they should be limited to no more than
5 years (instead of 20 or more) and the company that applies for the patent must be
obligated to make an effort at marketing their technology or product. Legitimate small
software businesses that fear being crushed by a large corporation cloning their
technology would still be able to get significant first-mover advantage (5 years is a long
time in internet time), but at the same time these "technology patent businesses" that
just patent vapor-ware and never do anything with the patent other than enforce it will
have to find something else to do other than create headaches for the rest of the
development community.

Any ideas?

Tyler

P.S. - The last time I checked politics here in the US, Al Gore seems to be on the side of
MS and Intel with regard to software patents. I have no idea what the other candidates'
positions are on this issue, but perhaps one of the other candidates, such as McCain might
have a different perspective.


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From tyler at infinet.com  Wed Jan 26 21:52:31 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388F6C09.5A190CFF@infinet.com>

Bill dehOra wrote:

> :  I strongly object to the whole idea of patenting software,
> :  which uses the
> :  legal fiction of a metaphorical machine to get around the
> :  fact that they're
> :  really patenting ideas and algorithms in thin disguise. The
> :  LZW "method" is
> :  an algorithm, not a machine, and should be no more
> :  patentable than the
> :  binomial theorem, which could just as easily have been
> :  swathed in a cloak
> :  of "machine" frosting and sold to the highest bidder if our
> :  acquiescent
> :  patent office had been around to cozy up to at the time. Feh!
>
> You might need to distinguish between an algorithm in the mathematical sense
> and the implementation of an algorithm. One the great ideas of this century
> is that you can separate the logic of a machine from its mechanical make-up.
> The entire software industry is built on this idea.
>
> Implementations of algorithms can be easily seen as machines, just because
> it doesn't have gross moving parts doesn't make it not a machine. Would you
> accept Amazon's one click patent if they used water driven gears and a
> couple of Jacquard looms?
>
> If the binomial theorem appeared last week say, I don't see why it couldn't
> be patented, if it was rephrased as an algorithmic process from which
> machines can be built. It's good that the innovative and the daring be
> rewarded with protection for their ideas. If anything patents drive
> invention by forcing further innovation. People worry too much about
> patents. The Shockley patent didn't exactly kill the electronics revolution.
> Geoworks' patent won't kill phone computing.

Well, what about companies in the business of patenting things which never have a solid
implementation behind the ideas as well as never ever producing a mature product from
those ideas. Does it really benefit innovation if someone manages to get some very broad
patent and never bothers marketing the product, but instead taxes any legitimate business
trying to market something truly innovative.

This entire Geoworks patent is a prime example of a company trying to put a sales tax on
other companies and in the end consumers. As far as I know from looking at their website,
Geoworks has never really done anything truly product related as they are in effect just
another software consulting company (much like what Unisys has become).

Geoworks might not kill phone computing but it might kill all of the efforts put into WAP
so far if the patent is upheld in court. Basically the people who came up with WAP would
have to start from scratch and try and create some other wireless application protocol
standard that does not infringe on some obscure patent hid away at the US Patent Office.


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From crism at exemplary.net  Wed Jan 26 22:31:30 2000
From: crism at exemplary.net (Christopher R. Maden)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: xml:lang: Am I doing more work than I need to be?
Message-ID: <1.02-66976-759-A@exemplary.net>

Tim Bray wrote:
> At 11:11 AM 1/26/00 -0800, Christian Hammond wrote:
>> I have
>> been working on getting xml:lang support implemented, but there is 
>> one thing
>> I'm confused about.
> 
> xml:lang is just an ordinary XML attribute that is reserved for the
> (very common) purpose of an author language-labeling pieces of data.
> There is no specification about what ought to be done with it anywhere.

Naturally, Tim is correct about the content of REC-XML, but Christian 
was asking more about the semantics, which are governed by RFC 1766 (I 
think - the exact number is in the Rec, and I'm writing this from my 
smartphone).  The value is hierarchical, and match on leading 
substrings.  So 'en' matches 'en-GB' and vice versa, but 'en-CA' doesn't 
match 'fr-CA'.

HTH,
Chris

-- 
Christopher R. Maden, Solutions Architect
Exemplary Technologies
One Embarcadero Center, Ste. 2405
San Francisco, CA 94111

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From jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu  Wed Jan 26 22:37:48 2000
From: jmcdonou at library.berkeley.edu (Jerome McDonough)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Oracle & Z39.50- PL/SQL or Java gizmo?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.GSO.4.05.10001260938440.26467-100000@jet.cc.emory.edu
 >
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001250017470.13550-100000@mail.q2.net>
Message-ID: <200001262237.RAA28421@westnet.com>

At 09:42 AM 01/26/2000 -0500, John Robert Gardner wrote:
>
>Our project with the rafts of data for library-related and private access,
>via Z39.50 protocol (preference for full facility support) is reaching the
>stage where our DBA wants to prototype a Z39.50 mechanism for accessing
>the test bed server, while our SIM Z39.50 (which _completely_ rocks with
>Z39.50) develops other mechanisms alongside.
>
>Does anyone know of such a PL/SQL or Java Z39.50 interface and sample
>which we could look at for Oracle?
>

There's a company called Compusult which makes a product called
Meta Manager, which provides a Z39.50 front end that can hook to
an Oracle DB at the backend.  It's really intended for people trying
to make geospatial data available in accordance with FGDC's content
standards, but I suspect it can be tweaked for other uses.  See
http://www.compusult.nf.ca for details.

You'll also want to have a look at Blue Angel's Meta Star Enterprise
package (http://www.blueangeltech.com), which provides a
Z39.50 server integrated with ODBC functionality.  It provides
pretty much everything you need for storing XML in databases
and making it available through Z39.50.

There is a commercial, Java package for Z39.50 work available,
although I haven't tried it.  It's called zedJava, and you can
get further details at http://roadrunner.crxnet.com/wwwzedjava.html.

Also, as a general rule, the Library of Congress is a good place
to look for information on Z39.50 and X.  Their website at
http://lcweb.loc.gov/z3950/agency/projects/software.html gives
a fairly comprehensive list of the major software packages available
for establishing Z39.50 client/server operations.

Hope that helps.


Jerome McDonough -- jmcdonou@library.Berkeley.EDU  |  (......)
Library Systems Office, 386 Doe, U.C. Berkeley     |  \ *  * /
Berkeley, CA 94720-6000    (510) 642-5168          |  \  <>  /
"Well, it looks easy enough...."                   |   \ -- /  SGNORMPF!!!
         -- From the Famous Last Words file        |    ||||

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From philipnye at freenet.co.uk  Wed Jan 26 23:01:51 2000
From: philipnye at freenet.co.uk (Philip Nye)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388F6C09.5A190CFF@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <388F7D9C.38AE9EAA@freenet.co.uk>

Tyler Baker wrote:

> Well, what about companies in the business of patenting things which never have a solid
> implementation behind the ideas as well as never ever producing a mature product from
> those ideas.

It is interesting that under British law, if a patent holder is not
exploiting their patent, a court can force them to licence it - although
the licence terms would be dictated by the court and might not be
acceptable to either party.

This would not apply to Geoworks whose patent is not British and who are
obviously intending to licence it anyway.

Philip Nye
-- 
Engineering Arts
mailto:philipnye@freenet.co.uk

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From tyler at infinet.com  Thu Jan 27 00:12:36 2000
From: tyler at infinet.com (Tyler Baker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A5CA42C@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk> <388F6C09.5A190CFF@infinet.com> <388F7D9C.38AE9EAA@freenet.co.uk>
Message-ID: <388F8CFA.6CCDA4F3@infinet.com>

Philip Nye wrote:

> Tyler Baker wrote:
>
> > Well, what about companies in the business of patenting things which never have a solid
> > implementation behind the ideas as well as never ever producing a mature product from
> > those ideas.
>
> It is interesting that under British law, if a patent holder is not
> exploiting their patent, a court can force them to licence it - although
> the licence terms would be dictated by the court and might not be
> acceptable to either party.
>
> This would not apply to Geoworks whose patent is not British and who are
> obviously intending to licence it anyway.

That is interesting. I think the point was more along the lines of the cyber-squatting issue
where someone patents something with new real forseeable intent of making a product out of
the patented process or technology and no real intent of licensing the technology to others
because there is no real market at the time. For non-software patents this is not a real
problem as patenting something which is expensive to research and develop is pointless if
there is no general market for the patent to be applied to. But in the case of software, many
of these poop patents are getting a patent for very little in research and development plus
just about $4,000 in filing claims. Many times, these companies which get these patents are
industry insiders who see what the obvious solution is 5 years from now for a market which is
not quite there. In the stock market if an employee of a technology company were to buy or
sell a bunch of company stock (through a third party of course) on the basis of a report not
yet disclosed to the public, this would be called insider trading. In the tech industry in
America, this sort of action is referred by the patent office as ingenuity )-:

Tyler


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From prasadm at crt.com  Thu Jan 27 00:09:16 2000
From: prasadm at crt.com (prasadm@crt.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Getting "<" and "&" sign in the HTML document
Message-ID: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D664E@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>

Hi folks,

I am new to XML, just started writing XSL's.
I have written an XSL which converts an XML document to HTML. 

The problem I am facing is, I am trying to send "&nbsp;"(HTML blank space)
and "<" 
to my HTML doc, but the parser intreprets this and sends 
the blank space as "&#38;nbsp;" and the "<" sign as "&#60;"

What should I do so as to get the blank space and less than angle
bracket in my html document.

Any help on this is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for ur time.

bye,
Prasad M
Home:- 	630-595-0642
Work:-	312-974-6543
prasadm@crt.com <mailto:prasadm@crt.com> 



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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Thu Jan 27 00:22:21 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: [OT] Re: Geoworks and their patent
References: <b4b17dc40102100485ef@[207.137.31.177]> <m3ya9f7fx5.fsf@localhost.localdomain> <388C62BF.530E13AA@nag.co.uk> <388F646F.6A7D62E@infinet.com>
Message-ID: <388F8EBE.351@hiwaay.net>

My guess is the GeoWorks patent won't hold unless someone 
buys them who can afford to make a case of it.  Just a guess...

Tyler Baker wrote:

> I think that many large corporations (Unisys
> excluded) who have an interest in public opinion don't enforce their many patents nearly
> as much as some of the smaller companies who are in the "patent business", precisely
> because they fear being loathed by developers in the manner that Unisys has become
> universally loathed as a lame company by just about everyone I know in the technology
> business.

It was brought up at Unisys.  They laughed.  Universal loathing has not
eaten as 
deeply into their pockets as it may have their recruiting.  However,
they have 
profits which is more than most web companies can claim precisely
because Unisys  
now operates in a services economy and knows it.  Boris and Natasha are 
paid employees and being loathed is part of being Badenov.

Let's look at this another way.  Because webTech is still a give away
economy, 
and because the operating systems business is now dominated on one end
by 
an enormously popular commercial product and on the other end by a free 
one, there is close to zero money in developing core technologies
without 
licensing.  The very thing so many from Barlow on down say they want
creates 
the very conditions they loathe. It's comical.  Without some way to
recoup the costs, 
services are all that is left, and in services, companies do not develop 
core technology:  they apply it and service its applications.  So it is 
buy or be fed by the kindness of strangers, capitalism or kindness, but 
choose because those are the choices.

> If software patents are to stay around, I feel that they should be limited to no more than
> 5 years (instead of 20 or more) and the company that applies for the patent must be
> obligated to make an effort at marketing their technology or product. 

So the solution is to have even more restrictive government
interference?  Software 
developers will be subject to special punitive legislation which
differentiates 
them from the MPEG hardware developers?  Sweet deal.  That will really
put  
innovation under control of the companies that can afford it.

> Any ideas?

Sure.  If a technology is good enough, moneyed companies have to license
it 
or challenge it.  If it is bogus, they will challenge it.  Remember,
they 
need money and selling hotTech is how the top players get it.  The
danger is 
when the moneyed company buys the tech and the patents by buying the 
patent holder.  

The LZW patent was reviewed and it held.  

This was bad news for folks using it and not cricket of Unisys to wait
and do it after 
it was deployed, but that's business timing.  It is a legal patent.  GIF
support 
is in the web browsers because the moneyed companies paid the license
fees. 
MP3 is in RealPlayer because they paid the license fees.  Fair dinkum?

The openSoftware folks don't have to challenge bad patents.  Let the
guys with the 
bucks pay the lawyers and the licensing fees.  OTOH, I guess it is a
problem 
for openSoftware projects that cannot raise the capital to pay for the 
licenses because they can't develop for it; but they certainly can 
code to the API. Frankly, I think that patented component licenses are 
RedHat's problem.   Fair dinkum?

The secret is to realize just how tied together it all is now and 
how those knots get tighter daily.  Things have changed a lot in 
the last five years with regards to how much software companies 
have to negotiate to stay alive.  That pattern is repeating at 
every level of the global community as our interdependencies 
increase.  

Wonderful.  

len

*** VOTE Moose and Squirrel For President:  a team with a proven
record***


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From jsweeney at chrystal.com  Thu Jan 27 02:09:43 2000
From: jsweeney at chrystal.com (Jim Sweeney)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
Message-ID: <FD65D092FB5FD311ADE40050047E4B401385CB@tessera.xsoft.sd.xerox.com>

OK, when I have "file:///c:/xml/dtd/foo.dtd" as my system id, it works, but
using a standard dos path as a system id is valid with my editor and my XML
content repository and I understand this works with some parser/SAX
combinations.  Is the behavior I'm seeing unique to XP?

Thanks for your help!

Jim Sweeney

> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2000 8:49 AM
> To: Jim Sweeney
> Cc: 'xml-dev@ic.ac.uk'
> Subject: Re: SAX newbie Q : absolute DTD path in system id
> 
> 
> Jim Sweeney <jsweeney@chrystal.com> writes:
> 
> > Yes, the DTD exists in the directory specified by an 
> absolute path such as: 
> > 
> > <!DOCTYPE foo SYSTEM "c:\xml\dtd\foo.dtd">
> 
> What happens if you make that a proper URI, i.e.
> 
  file:/c|xml/dtd/foo.dtd

or whatever Windows people do?


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net  Thu Jan 27 05:32:41 2000
From: rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net (Rahul Chugh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F80095F@INDUS>


hi all
i have   a problem
i need some DTD API's in c++ for parsing and making a tree structure in
memory
elp me out
as it is urgent

with regards
rahul chugh


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From rkn at india.infogain.com  Thu Jan 27 05:57:10 2000
From: rkn at india.infogain.com (Rajeev Nagpal)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <D1F627C11D9FD21182220080C87B20600A1976@WINNT_4>



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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Thu Jan 27 07:05:53 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing
Message-ID: <001601bf6895$4ada4ea0$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

I am interested in developing an XML schema for transaction processing that
could form part of the basis for an open platform for document-based processing.

Has this already been done? Does anyone else have a similar interest?

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill la Forge <b.laforge@jxml.com>
To: <soapbof@eng.sun.com>; <soap@discuss.develop.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:49 AM
Subject: January 26 meeting comments


> While impressed with what SOAP accomplishes--language neutral serialization--I
> find myself part of the group that seems to be looking for a platform for document
> processing.
> 
> Now, it may well be that Microsoft's Biz-talk can contribute to such a platform,
> but it also looks like there needs to be a transactional component as well.
> 
> (One thing I like about namespaces is that we can--hopefully--deal with
> orthoganal issues in different schema.)
> 
> The Jan 26 meeting raises, at least in my mind, one question:
> 
>     Would it be worth developing a schema for transaction processing?
>     And TIP seems like a good place to start:
>         ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2371.txt
> 
> Mind, I am not proposing that we simply replace TIP with XML.
> TIP was never intended to pass content, just control flow. 
> 
> I'd be more interested in a TIPML which also serves as a wrapper
> for content--even if the content itself is nothing more than a set of URLs.
> 
> Is anyone else interested in undertaking such an effort?
> 
> Bill la Forge,
> JXML
> 
> 



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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Thu Jan 27 07:05:49 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing
Message-ID: <001701bf6895$4e8de0c0$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

I am interested in developing an XML schema for transaction processing that
could form part of the basis for an open platform for document-based processing.

Has this already been done? Does anyone else have a similar interest?

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill la Forge <b.laforge@jxml.com>
To: <soapbof@eng.sun.com>; <soap@discuss.develop.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:49 AM
Subject: January 26 meeting comments


> While impressed with what SOAP accomplishes--language neutral serialization--I
> find myself part of the group that seems to be looking for a platform for document
> processing.
> 
> Now, it may well be that Microsoft's Biz-talk can contribute to such a platform,
> but it also looks like there needs to be a transactional component as well.
> 
> (One thing I like about namespaces is that we can--hopefully--deal with
> orthoganal issues in different schema.)
> 
> The Jan 26 meeting raises, at least in my mind, one question:
> 
>     Would it be worth developing a schema for transaction processing?
>     And TIP seems like a good place to start:
>         ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2371.txt
> 
> Mind, I am not proposing that we simply replace TIP with XML.
> TIP was never intended to pass content, just control flow. 
> 
> I'd be more interested in a TIPML which also serves as a wrapper
> for content--even if the content itself is nothing more than a set of URLs.
> 
> Is anyone else interested in undertaking such an effort?
> 
> Bill la Forge,
> JXML
> 
> 



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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Thu Jan 27 07:05:49 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing
Message-ID: <001d01bf6895$64da30e0$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

I am interested in developing an XML schema for transaction processing that
could form part of the basis for an open platform for document-based processing.

Has this already been done? Does anyone else have a similar interest?

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Bill la Forge <b.laforge@jxml.com>
To: <soapbof@eng.sun.com>; <soap@discuss.develop.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:49 AM
Subject: January 26 meeting comments


> While impressed with what SOAP accomplishes--language neutral serialization--I
> find myself part of the group that seems to be looking for a platform for document
> processing.
> 
> Now, it may well be that Microsoft's Biz-talk can contribute to such a platform,
> but it also looks like there needs to be a transactional component as well.
> 
> (One thing I like about namespaces is that we can--hopefully--deal with
> orthoganal issues in different schema.)
> 
> The Jan 26 meeting raises, at least in my mind, one question:
> 
>     Would it be worth developing a schema for transaction processing?
>     And TIP seems like a good place to start:
>         ftp://ftp.isi.edu/in-notes/rfc2371.txt
> 
> Mind, I am not proposing that we simply replace TIP with XML.
> TIP was never intended to pass content, just control flow. 
> 
> I'd be more interested in a TIPML which also serves as a wrapper
> for content--even if the content itself is nothing more than a set of URLs.
> 
> Is anyone else interested in undertaking such an effort?
> 
> Bill la Forge,
> JXML
> 
> 



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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Thu Jan 27 07:51:58 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:38 2004
Subject: Appologies, Re: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing
Message-ID: <007001bf689b$e7ada640$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

Many appologies for the repeated messages!
(Got a wierd error from my mail program and I didn't
realize that it had sent anything.)

Bill



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From Paul.Langer at softwareag.com  Thu Jan 27 08:21:40 2000
From: Paul.Langer at softwareag.com (Langer, Paul)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Hyphens vs underscores in element names
Message-ID: <2339B88D6AA6D31187A80008C7E6F6722D9067@daemsg01.software-ag.de>

KenB wrote:

> [snip]
> The most compelling reason to go with undercore is the C/C++and other
> languages issue.  Its not just a matter of compilers.  There are a lot
> of new tools on the horizon that are/will be dealing with XML schemas
> and programming code. These tools will need to share symbol tables between
> the programming language and the element/attribute names.  This is a lot
easier
> if you don't have to change element tags programmatically to something
that the
> language compilers will like.
> [snip]

There is almost no benefit for these tools if the character HYPHEN-MINUS
is not used. XML allows thousands of name characters. Current C/C++
compilers
allow only a very tiny fraction of these characters.

All the best,
Paul

-------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Langer?????????????? E-mail?? Paul.Langer@softwareag.com
Software AG?????????????? Tel.???? +49-6151-92-1912
Uhlandstr. 12???????????? Fax????? +49-6151-92-1613
D-64297 Darmstadt

 

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From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp  Thu Jan 27 09:49:31 2000
From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: a case in OASIS test suite
Message-ID: <026601bf68ab$bb24ca30$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp>

While I tried to evaluate a parser's conformance against OASIS test cases,
I found a test case which I believe is not WF (well-formed) but is actually
be classified as NV (not valid) in the test suite.

Its case id is "inv-not-sa03" which looks just as follows.


<?xml version='1.0' standalone='yes'?>

<!DOCTYPE attributes SYSTEM "../valid/sa.dtd" [
    <!--
 External entity ref
    -->
]>

<attributes
    token = "b"
    id = "external-&number;"
  />


After revisiting the description in XML 1.0 Sec. 4.1, It still looks non-WF
to me.

Does anybody care to explain me if the XML above is indeed WF?

Thanks in advance,

= Takuki Kamiya  Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749   =
= FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731)         =


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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Thu Jan 27 10:11:00 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
In-Reply-To: <039e01bf6769$8fd0dc40$efbdb3c7@WORKGROUP>
References: <yqz2zotva2rw.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com> <200001251819.MAA01222@bruno.techno.com> <039e01bf6769$8fd0dc40$efbdb3c7@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <m3k8kvg6z8.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Michael Champion
| 
| I can say with some confidence that "they" don't get it.  I don't
| get it.  The DOM WG has wrestled with the ISO stuff and took out of
| it all that we thought could use.  The SML-DEV people wrestled with
| the ISO stuff from their fresh start at all this and don't get it
| either.  A lot of people who are not not stupid or lazy or subject
| to anyone's irrational phobias have tried and failed to understand
| what you see in the ISO specs that would lead you to believe that
| they have solved in a useful way the problems we wrestle with.

I have also noted this phenomenon and have thought a little about what
the possible causes might be.  The grove concept is very easy to
understand, much more so than anyone would believe who has not
actually delved into it. 

However, it has not been presented in an effective manner. Almost the
only piece of information about it that is easy to understand for a
programmer is Paul Prescod's tutorial[1]. I have read it, worked with
SGML, DSSSL and similar things for years, and even so I, personally,
did not really understand it until I got an explanation from Eliot
Kimber at a conference.

So I see several reasons for the general failure to understand what
groves are all about:

 - lack of suitable presentational material
 - the fact that it comes from a different community with a different
   philosophy and terminology
 - the extreme suspicion with which many W3C (and other) people view
   anything coming out of the ISO processes (this is not directed at
   you, Michael; I have no idea what your stance is)
 - the fact that groves and the DOM have different purposes

This last point needs a little elaboration: groves serve as a basis
for addressing and can also be used for read-only processing. The DOM
is intended as a basis for read-and-write processing. This doesn't
mean that groves don't have anything to give the DOM, but it does make
it easier to miss the point about groves when you're really looking
for the answer to a different question than that answered by groves.
 
That being said, I would be very happy to see the W3C publish property
sets for CSS, XML (ie: the information set as a property set), XLink,
RDF (or at least a mapping from RDF) and maybe even the web itself.
In lieu of this I find it very encouraging that some specs, such as
XLink, now use RDF to express their data models. Anyone for RDFPointer?

| The "lack of influence garnered by ISO 10744" is, as near as I can
| tell, the result of its difficulty for an ordinarily intelligent
| person to understand, not a conspiracy involving Microsoft, the
| press, the W3C, or anyone else.  Point the world to a clarified,
| unified, readable exposition of the "ISO stuff" that doesn't presume
| that one understands the entire SGML property set and I assure you
| it will be given fair consideration by a lot of people.

Start with Paul Prescod's tutorial, and then go ask him, Peter Newcomb
or Eliot Kimber the next time you see one of them (try to get them to
give you a GroveMinder demo!). I've not put Steven on this list
because I'm not sure if he would present this in the way programmers
need, but maybe he should be in there as well.

--Lars M.

[1] <URL: http://www.prescod.net/groves/shorttut/ >


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From rgl at decisionsoft.com  Thu Jan 27 11:07:21 2000
From: rgl at decisionsoft.com (Richard Lanyon)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: ANNOUNCE: New release of X-Tract/XML Script
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001271104290.1104-100000@localhost.localdomain>


A new version of X-Tract (our XML transformations tool) has been released.
As with previous versions of X-Tract, it uses our own XML grammar, XML
Script, to describe the transformations, but this version of X-Tract is
based on a very different XML Script syntax (v1.1) from earlier versions
(v1.0). We consider this to be a significant improvement.

The XML Script homepage is http://www.xmlscript.org/ and contains
downloadable versions of X-Tract (free for non-commercial use).

-- 
Richard Lanyon (Software Engineer) |     "The medium is the message"
XML Script development,            |             - Marshall McLuhan
DecisionSoft Ltd.                  |



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From hjmc at usa.net  Thu Jan 27 11:19:56 2000
From: hjmc at usa.net (Helder Caeiro)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000127111929.24552.qmail@nwcst314.netaddress.usa.net>

unsubscribe xml-dev

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From amitr at abinfosys.com  Thu Jan 27 12:44:33 2000
From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: When to use NMTOKEN, CDATA attributes?
Message-ID: <00b701bf68c3$772fb570$8d6536ca@SERVER.ABINFOSYSTEMS>


Hi!

When designing a DTD, while deciding the attribute value types
when should one use a CDATA attribute type and when to use
a NMTOKEN attribute type?

Syntactically looking at the production rules, the difference is clear
But, semantically when should one use one over the other? Why?

Thanks in advance for any replies,

Amit Rekhi,
Software Engineer,
A.B. Infosys Private Limited,
B-102, Gulmohar Park,
New Delhi - 110049,
INDIA.
Tel: +91-11-6512816,6512822,6968976
Fax: +91-11-6518873
Website: http://www.abinfosys.com
EMail: amit@abinfosys.com

Note: Not related to Infosys Technologies Limited





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From amitr at abinfosys.com  Thu Jan 27 12:44:24 2000
From: amitr at abinfosys.com (Amit Rekhi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Problem in understanding rule [14] of XML spec
Message-ID: <00b601bf68c3$75fb0600$8d6536ca@SERVER.ABINFOSYSTEMS>


Hi!

I have not been able to understand the reason why production rule [14]:

CharData: [^<&]* - ([^<&]*  ']]>'  [^<&]*)

is not written like:

CharData: [^<&]* -  ']]>'

- Why did the ']]>' have to be preceeded and suceeded by [^<&]* ?

- How would rule [14] behave with the following strings?
1) abc]]>
2) abc]]>def

Thanks in advance for any replies,

Amit Rekhi,
Software Engineer,
A.B. Infosys Private Limited,
B-102, Gulmohar Park,
New Delhi - 110049,
INDIA.
Tel: +91-11-6512816,6512822,6968976
Fax: +91-11-6518873
Website: http://www.abinfosys.com
EMail: amit@abinfosys.com

Note: Not related to Infosys Technologies Limited



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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jan 27 13:14:37 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Problem in understanding rule [14] of XML spec
References: <00b601bf68c3$75fb0600$8d6536ca@SERVER.ABINFOSYSTEMS>
Message-ID: <86pgbo$1r2h$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <00b601bf68c3$75fb0600$8d6536ca@SERVER.ABINFOSYSTEMS>,
Amit Rekhi <amitr@abinfosys.com> wrote:

>I have not been able to understand the reason why production rule [14]:
>
>CharData: [^<&]* - ([^<&]*  ']]>'  [^<&]*)
>
>is not written like:
>
>CharData: [^<&]* -  ']]>'

Your rule would accept any string of non-<& characters except the string
']]>'.  The rule in the spec accepts any string of non-<& characters 
except ones *containing* the string ']]>'.


>- How would rule [14] behave with the following strings?
>1) abc]]>
>2) abc]]>def

It rejects them both, as intended.

Actually, the rule could have been more simply written

  [^<&]* - (Char*  ']]>'  Char*)

-- Richard

-- 
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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jan 27 13:24:52 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: a case in OASIS test suite
References: <026601bf68ab$bb24ca30$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp>
Message-ID: <86pgup$1rec$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <026601bf68ab$bb24ca30$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp>,

>After revisiting the description in XML 1.0 Sec. 4.1, It still looks non-WF
>to me.

See erratum E34 (http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E34) which
applies to this section.

The idea is that it can't be a well-formedness constraint if not all
processors would see the error, and those that read the external
subset would think it was perfectly good.

It's invalid because it is not, as it claims, standalone.

You might think that this is a bit odd, and I wouldn't disagree with
you...

-- Richard

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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Thu Jan 27 14:19:55 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
Message-ID: <008201bf68d2$6c2d6b40$0101a8c0@tompassin>

Richard Tobin wrote:

<snip/>
> The algorithm in 3.3.3 applied to a non-CDATA attribute
>
>    "foo &#x9; bar"
>
> will first replace the character reference with a tab character, so we
> will have
>
>   space tab space
>
> Then the "further processing" will do nothing, because there are no
> sequences of more than one space character.
>
> The only way that the tab could become a space is if both the first
> and third points of section 3.3.3 were applied to it, but the natural
> reading is that those points are alternatives.
>
OK I think I'm seeing what you are seeing now.  3.3.3 specifies behavior for
BOTH Character References and Entity References.  Elsewhere in the Rec a
clear distinction is made between character references and entities. The
Character Reference behavior is just to append, not to do any recursive
normalizing.  But the paragraph on replacing spaces with a single space only
applies to #x20 spaces, not to any other kind of whitespace
So the tab wouldn't get removed, as you say.

I wonder if this was an error or intended?  The text in the Rec is

"If the declared value is not CDATA, then the XML processor must further
process the normalized attribute value by discarding any leading and
trailing space (#x20) characters, and by replacing sequences of space (#x20)
characters by a single space (#x20) character."

Maybe they intended "...sequences of whitespace..." instead.

Anyone know for sure which way this was supposed to read?

Tom Passin


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From norman at astro.gla.ac.uk  Thu Jan 27 15:41:50 2000
From: norman at astro.gla.ac.uk (Norman Gray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML
 Infoset
In-Reply-To: <039e01bf6769$8fd0dc40$efbdb3c7@WORKGROUP>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>


Greetings,

I put in some effort to understand ISO 10744.  I ended up feeling
that it was indeed Simple (as distinct from `simple'), and that it
enhanced my understanding of both SGML/XML and the notion of structured
information[1].  When I read the auxiliary XML specs (DOM, InfoSet,
XLink,...), my first thought was `why are they creating a complicated
version of HyTime?'.

However:

    (a) Simple is not the same as easy.  The flip-side of the Simplicity
    is that the standard is somewhat abstract (ahem!) and, like all
    grand projects, has its own universe of concepts.  Also, I found it
    rather difficult to work out from the standard just what problem
    10744 was trying to solve.  All of this means that there's not an
    obvious reason why someone with other claims on their time should put
    aside the mental house-room for the standard, or put in the effort
    to see through the details to the elegant structures underlying them.
    In other words, the standard does not give the impression, up front,
    that the effort of understanding it will be repaid.  This is a pity.

    (b) Separately from that, I felt that the standard was rather
    confusingly written; I strongly suspect, however, that this was
    because of the constraints of writing according to the ISO format.
    My impression was that there were at least _four_ standards here,
    which were linked but independent.  Having all four in the one
    document produces an indigestibly rich pudding.

Taking the second point first: 10744 more-or-less simultaneously
defines

  1 The definition of the Grove (appx A.4.1.4), the notion of
    grove construction as the sole result of a *ML parse, and the
    grove as the data structure on which all subsequent operations are
    formally defined.  This is related to the definition of the DOM,
    though that's an interface, I suppose, rather than a data structure.
    I understand Nils to have been discussing something very like this
    in his message in this thread.

  2 The property set in general (appx A.4), and specifically one example
    of it -- the SGML Property Set (appx A.7).  The XML InfoSet appears
    to be a reinvention of the notion of a Property Set.

  3 The notion of the architecture (appx A.3), as a mechanism for supplying
    inheritance (in the OO sense) and mapping general structures, and
    their semantics, onto disparate DTDs.

  4 One particular architecture, the HyTime architecture (defined in
    the rest of the standard), defining a ready-rolled bundle of semantics
    for DTDs to inherit and subset.  XLink appears to be a version of
    this architecture, albeit without the flexibility and generality.

  ... and a few other bits and bobs in the rest of appendix A, `SGML
    extended facilities'.

Unless I am misunderstanding something quite severely (in which case,
that's another datapoint), these `mini-standards' are reasonably
independent, though designed to fit together well.  At least, the
bundle of SGML add-ons in appendix A could have been decoupled from
the rest of the standard.  The fact that they were not has, I imagine
(from a position of ignorance), as much to do with ISO bureaucracy and
traditions as with anything else.

I've ended up with the impression that part of the point of 10744 is to
make it easier to do things like define the XML auxiliary specs.

My impression of the thing is that it is the result of a lot of work to
produce carefully defined, though admittedly not transparent, fundamental
concepts, which clarify the problem and articulate with each other snugly,
and which make the next generation of standards and tools easier to write.
It would appear that once you have absorbed 10744, the XML auxiliary specs
could be defined _extremely_ compactly in terms of the concepts of 10744
(the InfoSet would be just a property set, the DOM just a grove plan,
XLink a set of HyTime options, and so on).  In this spirit, James Clark's
`Comparison of SGML and XML' document is essentially a definition of XML
= SGML + the XML declaration + three pages of commentary, and makes the
30-page XML Recommendation look bloated.  The shorter the spec, and the
more it can build on previous standards, the less chance there is for
ambiguity, contradiction, and confusion.

After such a minimalist set of specifications, the crucial effort would
be to provide a mass of non-normative commentary on the definitions,
in a form which makes them accessible or more generally usable.

What appears to be happening now is that HyTime is being reinvented
piecemeal -- in the auxiliary specs -- which is bad for just the reasons
Nils mentioned: specs seem to contradict each other, act on different
information sets, require a forest of new terminology and concepts
which may or may not be isomorphic to each other.  I can see that
there's the intention of making these specs more accessible by being
less general, but the `issues' listed in, say, the 19991220 version of
XLink simply illustrate that as XLink becomes more nearly finished, it
becomes more abstract, and more and more like HyTime without the
elegance.

I don't have any axes to grind here; I'm a user of the specs rather
than an author of them.  Speaking as a user, however, I can say that the
current auxiliary specs look like a rat's nest of slightly out-of-synch
definitions, rapidly being set in concrete.  Though individual specs are
intelligible in isolation, the network of specs looks collectively ugly,
inexpressive, and Not Fun To Play With.  It's starting to look as if
an XML project is something to avoid getting lumbered with, whereas a
HyTime project I'd fight for tooth and nail.

All the best,

Norman


[1] I found quite a few useful exegeses of 10744 stuff, covering
    HyTime, architectures and groves, but generally
    without making it terribly clear that these were
    fairly distinct things.  I've a small collection at
    http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/bookmarks/lists-hytime.html

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Norman Gray                        http://www.astro.gla.ac.uk/users/norman/
Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK     norman@astro.gla.ac.uk


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From gmessner at vsi.com  Thu Jan 27 15:41:49 2000
From: gmessner at vsi.com (Gregory M. Messner)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Data exchange BOF at Netscape
Message-ID: <200001271541.HAA12909@cts.com>

On Jan 25 a BOF meeting was held at Netscape to primarially discuss
application data exchange.  For those of us that were not able to attend,
does anyone have meeting notes or any information on the gathering?

Following is an email from the java-xml-interest mailing list desrcribing
the meeting:

> We wish to hold an open meeting to discuss ecommerce data exchange 
> problems and techniques. In IETF47 there will be a BOF 
> on this area and material discussed will input this BOF. 
> 
> The problem areas being addressed: 
> 
> Particularly in the ecommerce area, there is a rapidly growing need to 
> exchange data between applications. XML, as an application-neutral and 
> metadata-aware medium, is used to describe and express the data. For 
> various application areas, there are industry consortiums and other bodies 
> defining  schema, but currently there is no common underlying protocol for 
> transmisson of the data. 
>
> Existing protocols for RPC or object invocation - such as IIOP and  DCOM - 
> appear to have enough difficulties so that other WEB approaches need to 
> be evaluated. SOAP is an example technology that will be examined. 
> 
> Our meeting will discuss this problem space and related technologies.


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From DuCharmR at moodys.com  Thu Jan 27 16:04:00 2000
From: DuCharmR at moodys.com (DuCharme, Robert)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Getting "<" and "&" sign in the HTML document
Message-ID: <01BA10F0CD20D3119B2400805FD40F9F27846A@MDYNYCMSX1>

>I have written an XSL which converts an XML document to HTML. 
>The problem I am facing is, I am trying to send "&nbsp;"(HTML blank space)
>and "<"  to my HTML doc, but the parser intreprets this and sends 
>the blank space as "&#38;nbsp;" and the "<" sign as "&#60;"

Use &lt; for < and &nbsp; for the HTML blank. You don't need to declare <,
because it's one of the five character entities that all XML processors are
already supposed to understand, but you do need to declare nbsp, so begin
your XSL stylesheet like this:

<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE stylesheet [
<!ENTITY nbsp "&#x00A0;">
]>

Bob DuCharme       www.snee.com/bob       <bob@  
snee.com>  see www.snee.com/bob/xmlann for "XML:
The Annotated Specification" from Prentice Hall.

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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Thu Jan 27 16:27:02 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: has anyone seen Blocks?
Message-ID: <200001271626.LAA14564@hesketh.net>

http://mappa.mundi.net/Internet-Drafts/blocks-architecture.html

This is from Invisible Worlds (http://www.invisible.net/) and claims (in
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-200-1532441.html?tag=st):

>"What we've developed is a standard way of getting 
>XML back and forth," Malamud said in an interview. 
>Malamud conceded that XML can travel via HTTP, but he said
>there is no consensus on how to do that. 

Maybe it's just another confusing announcement, maybe it's something else -
I'd love to hear what people think of this.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From klarlund at research.att.com  Thu Jan 27 17:55:54 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
Message-ID: <yqz2iu0fs8kl.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>


> So I see several reasons for the general failure to understand what
> groves are all about:
> 
>  - lack of suitable presentational material
>  - the fact that it comes from a different community with a different
>    philosophy and terminology
>  - the extreme suspicion with which many W3C (and other) people view
>    anything coming out of the ISO processes (this is not directed at
>    you, Michael; I have no idea what your stance is)
>  - the fact that groves and the DOM have different purposes
> 

Or maybe that groves are just too abstract? (I'm saying this solely
based on what I read in the excellent tutorial by Paul Prescod that
you referred to.) In fact, even the XML quintessence, trees, is not a
clear sell: recursion and trees are a standard part of a computer
science curriculum, but these concepts are not easily swallowed by
all.

The best hope we have is to base what we develop directly on concepts
that we can assume have been somewhat understood through training or
mathematical intuition.  Groves appear well thought-out for their
purpose, but the mathematical abstractions they embody are not
necessarily any easier to grasp than if those abstractions were
applied directly to the problem domain at hand.  In fact, it is my
experience that formal methods frameworks are often a hindrance to
exposing simple ideas.  Talking mathematically is not bad, but the
talking must be in mathematics that's known: sets, maps, trees, etc,
not in a little-known lingo that requires extra training.  (By the
way, I realize belatedly that Infosets are more or less couched in
grove langauge, mostly unknown to the world, whether justified or not.
XML Schema is in turn couched in Infoset speak, and so on,....)

I am not qualified to comment on SGML itself, but even XML 1.0 does
appear to be suffering from over-conceptualization (too many concepts
that don't fit together too precisely).  As a simple example, look at
content models:

- a content model is not a model for content in general, but only two
  kinds of content, namely elements and character data, not processing
  instructions and not comments (incidentally, it could have been
  termed "markup model" as well I think, since markup is a more
  general concept than content)

- the content model concept is further split into two concepts:

  (1) element content, which allows only elements in content
  (2) mixed content, which allows character data interspersed
      with elements

Thus, there are now two similar sets of syntax and regular expressions
for describing not content, but the projection of content onto
elements and character data.

An alternative approach would have declared "content" to simply
consist of just element nodes and text nodes ("text nodes" as in
XPATH) representing character data.  Then there would be no need for
(2), since a content model now describes a regular language over the
alphabet consisting of what you would expect: element names and the
token text() (or #PCDATA).  And, you'd be able to describe, say, HTML
with Appendix elements that must appear at the end:

  ((#PCDATA | H1 | H2 |...)*, Appendix*)

So, the distinction between element content and mixed content is a
needless one that both restricts what can be expressed and that
muddles the conceptual framework.  (The way of treating content just
outlined is what we chose for the DSD schema notation, incidentally.)

XPATH with its tree model goes a far way in clearing up things; so
does DOM2, but the crown unifying these not-quite-compatible models is
missing.

/Nils

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Thu Jan 27 21:16:40 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Undeclared namespace
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AD23@RED-MSG-08>

Last November, many members of XML-Dev wrote and requested that the
Microsoft MSXML parser change its requirements for declaration of namespaces
in DTDs.  I forwarded these requests to the parser developers, and I have
just received word from them that the handling has been changed, as
requested, in the MSXML 2.6 parser.

Thanks for the good suggestions. :-)

See http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/webtechnology/xml/msxml.asp for
information about downloading a copy of this version.

Best wishes,
Andrew Layman
Microsoft

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 27 23:01:04 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <86hpnm$6ic$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3890CE2A.633285@pacbell.net>

Richard Tobin wrote:
> 
> How is an attribute containing a character reference to to whitespace
> character (other than space) supposed to be normalised?
> 
> Section 3.3.3 seems to me to say that character references are not
> subject to the translation to #x20 - the four bulleted points are
> an exhaustive disjunction.
>
> However the Oasis test suite, in tests sa02 and not-sa02, requires
> that they are replaced with spaces.
> 
> Which is correct?

As a data point, those output tests were originally generated using
the then-current version of XP.  I suspect Tom Passim's observation
is close:  except for CDATA, _whitespace_ should be replaced with just
one space.

As I've commented elsewhere, I find that much of the entity processing
in the XML spec seems to be specified as a collection of special cases
(updated via errata as inconsistencies turn up) rather than being based
on simple and consistent rules.  This is another place that it seems to
be happening.

There are two curious points in 3.3.3 ... first, that character and
entity refs may appear, and second that CRLF sequences may appear (line
endings already having been normalized).

How would these appear?  If we assume that 4.4 applies first, then
those OASIS cases are correct, and they'd appear "doubly escaped" as:

   <element
	char-ref-attr = "foo &#38;#9; bar"
	ent-ref-attr1 = "AT&#38;amp;T"
	ent-ref-attr2 = "AT&amp;amp;T"
	crlf-attr     = "a&#xD;&#xA;b"
	/>

If we assume that 3.3.3 has needless duplication of 4.4 then I
can't see how the literal CRLF can ever show up as input to the
normalization, since line-ends have already been normalized.

On the other hand, I don't think anyone actually writes what
ent-ref-attr2 has -- "AT&amp;T" is it.  Perhaps 4.4 applies
first, _and_ there is needless duplication (for entity refs).
Or 3.3.3 has both duplication and several errors.

- Dave

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From david at megginson.com  Thu Jan 27 23:01:41 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:39 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
Message-ID: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain>

I think that XML-dev'ers might want to go and take a look at a recent
SlashDot discussion on XML:

  http://slashdot.org/articles/00/01/26/150247.shtml

It starts with the XHTML REC announcement, but quickly shifts into a
sometimes-rude discussion about XML itself.  We're all busy preaching
(and selling our products and services to) the converted here on
XML-Dev, but it's sometimes useful to stop and see how XML is playing
in the outside world.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From b.laforge at jxml.com  Thu Jan 27 23:02:26 2000
From: b.laforge at jxml.com (Bill la Forge)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing
References: <001d01bf6895$64da30e0$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com> <389094A5.26BA2219@exoffice.com>
Message-ID: <001501bf691b$19337760$c8a8a8c0@jxml.com>

Looks like there is an IETF internet draft that relates:
    http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-xmlmsg-requirements-00.txt

(Thanks to Ron Kleinman for pointing this out.)

Bill

----- Original Message ----- 
From: Assaf Arkin <arkin@exoffice.com>
To: Bill la Forge <b.laforge@jxml.com>
Cc: <xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk>
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: An Open, industry-neutral schema for transaction processing


> Bill la Forge wrote:
> > 
> > I am interested in developing an XML schema for transaction processing that
> > could form part of the basis for an open platform for document-based processing.
> > 
> > Has this already been done? Does anyone else have a similar interest?
> > 
> > Bill
> 
> 
> I was thinking along the same lines, a DTD that will specify a sequence
> of operations occuring inside a transaction.
> 
> If the DTD is generic enough it could be useful in various environments.
> You know the common cases, but it could also be used to reconfigure an
> application's transaction through XML, to schedule transactional
> operations (cron style), or even to negotiate the contents of a
> transaction.
> 
> The DTD will involve a specification of the transaction and it's
> resources, and a set of operations to carry, plus operations to carry in
> the event of the transaction committing or aborting.
> 
> Each operation would be a lookup for an object, parameters and possibly
> an expected return value.
> 
> arkin
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Assaf Arkin                                           www.exoffice.com
> CTO, Exoffice Technologies, Inc.                        www.exolab.org
> 


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From sbrown at saonet.ucla.edu  Thu Jan 27 23:16:45 2000
From: sbrown at saonet.ucla.edu (Brown, Sam)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: A outside perspective
Message-ID: <1EF0C92BCCDAD2118FD40020480E269B01B0B537@10EEXCHANGE>

I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.

Sam Brown
UCLA Arthur Ashe Student Health & Wellness Center
Information Systems Manager
(310) 206-6356

-----Original Message-----
From: David Megginson [mailto:david@megginson.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 3:00 PM
To: XMLDev list
Subject: XML: A outside perspective

I think that XML-dev'ers might want to go and take a look at a recent
SlashDot discussion on XML:

  http://slashdot.org/articles/00/01/26/150247.shtml

It starts with the XHTML REC announcement, but quickly shifts into a
sometimes-rude discussion about XML itself.  We're all busy preaching
(and selling our products and services to) the converted here on
XML-Dev, but it's sometimes useful to stop and see how XML is playing
in the outside world.


All the best,


David

--
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           http://www.megginson.com/

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 27 23:22:44 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000127152013.01341cc0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 03:00 PM 1/27/00 -0800, David Brownell wrote:
>There are two curious points in 3.3.3 ... first, that character and
>entity refs may appear, and second that CRLF sequences may appear (line
>endings already having been normalized).

The most curious point about 3.3.3 is that it exists at all.  Why the
$#%%!@! should attribute values be "normalized" anyhow?  This was a pure
process failure: at no point during the 18-month development cycle of
XML 1.0 did anyone stand up and say "why are you doing this?"  I'd bet
big bucks that if someone had, the silly thing would have died a 
well-deserved death. -Tim

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Thu Jan 27 23:27:04 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <3890CE2A.633285@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <86qk81$2jvj$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <3890CE2A.633285@pacbell.net>,
David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net> wrote:

>There are two curious points in 3.3.3 ... first, that character and
>entity refs may appear, and second that CRLF sequences may appear (line
>endings already having been normalized).

What makes you sure line ends have already been normalised?  In 2.11
it refers to converting them to #xA before passing them to the
application, and suggests that it can be implemented by normalising
before parsing (but doesn't have to be).

I take the line-end conversion in 3.3.3 as duplicating the requirement
in 2.11.  If you implement it by normalising before parsing, you won't
have to do anything about it in attribute normalisation.

Similarly, I think the entity expansion in 3.3.3 is duplication of
4.4.

And finally, I suspect that the authors just forgot the possibility
of non-#x20 whitespace (arising from character entity references) in
the paragraph about trimming and compressing spaces.

The simplest solution seems to me to leave normalisation as it is, and
change the Names and Nmtokens productions (which are only used for
tokenised attribute) to require #x20 rather than S.  This would make
"foo&#9;bar" illegal as a tokenised attribute, and a good thing too.

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From tbray at textuality.com  Thu Jan 27 23:46:52 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Ahh, springtime in IETF-land
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000127154522.013b77b0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 11:27 AM 1/27/00 -0500, Simon St.Laurent wrote:
>http://mappa.mundi.net/Internet-Drafts/blocks-architecture.html

At 06:06 PM 1/27/00 -0500, Bill la Forge wrote:
>Looks like there is an IETF internet draft that relates:
>    http://search.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-trade-xmlmsg-requirements-00.txt

Hmmm... so will a wave of enthusiasm for XML interchange sweep the IETF?

HTTP, it's so, like y'know, twentieth-century. -T.

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From david-b at pacbell.net  Thu Jan 27 23:56:54 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <3890CE2A.633285@pacbell.net> <86qk81$2jvj$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <3890DB3C.327AC1B1@pacbell.net>

Richard Tobin wrote:
> 
> In article <3890CE2A.633285@pacbell.net>,
> David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net> wrote:
> 
> >There are two curious points in 3.3.3 ... first, that character and
> >entity refs may appear, and second that CRLF sequences may appear (line
> >endings already having been normalized).
> 
> What makes you sure line ends have already been normalised?

http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E24 ... the first sentence
that replaces 3.3.3 in the REC says so.


>	  In 2.11
> it refers to converting them to #xA before passing them to the
> application, and suggests that it can be implemented by normalising
> before parsing (but doesn't have to be).
> 
> I take the line-end conversion in 3.3.3 as duplicating the requirement
> in 2.11.  If you implement it by normalising before parsing, you won't
> have to do anything about it in attribute normalisation.

The errata preclude that interpretation.  Line end normalization is done
first, and yet afterwards you can still find a CRLF (or a plain CR) in the
pre-normalization attribute text.


> Similarly, I think the entity expansion in 3.3.3 is duplication of
> 4.4.

That was one of the options I presented.  Along with some of the
spec inconsistencies introduced by that interpretation.


> And finally, I suspect that the authors just forgot the possibility
> of non-#x20 whitespace (arising from character entity references) in
> the paragraph about trimming and compressing spaces.

Didn't I identify a few more problems with 3.3.3 than that??  ;-)


> The simplest solution seems to me to leave normalisation as it is, and
> change the Names and Nmtokens productions (which are only used for
> tokenised attribute) to require #x20 rather than S.  This would make
> "foo&#9;bar" illegal as a tokenised attribute, and a good thing too.

That'd only affect a couple validity constraints, and wouldn't address
the problem that the spec is problematic re multiple aspects of the
attribute normalization.  (I'll refrain from proposing a fix though!)

- Dave

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From michael at research.canon.com.au  Fri Jan 28 00:47:12 2000
From: michael at research.canon.com.au (Michael Anderson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML Schema support for Interoperability?
Message-ID: <3890E6E9.16832FE3@research.canon.com.au>

Hello all,
Roger was interested in discussing XML Schema support for
interoperability.  Unfortunately my discussion is only questions and no
answers, sorry.  In general my questions involve the hierarchical
relationship between elements declared with equivalent classes.


1. In an XML document instance we want to be able to use <guys> or
<boys> (using Roger's example) depending upon our preference.  So is
equivClass bi-directional when we declare it in our Schema?  To me, the
syntax appears more like a uni-directional relationship.
i.e.
> With XML Schemas we can create an element (called the exemplar) and
then
> create other elements which state that they are equivalent to the
> exemplar.  For example,
>
> <element name="boys" type="string"/>
> <element name="guys" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>
>
> XML Schemas enables us to explicitly state that guys is equivalent to
> boys.
>
> If I write an application which expects a <boys> element, and I get an

> XML document which contains a <guys> element then I can go to the XML
> Schema document to see if <guys> is equivalent to the expected <boys>
> element.  Thus, the schema is acting as an "interoperability schema".

If however, I write an application which expects a <guys> element, and I

get an XML document which contains a <boys>, then when I go to the XML
Schema document I do not find that <boys> is equivalent to the expected
<guys>.  Should the application know that <guys> is equivalent or should

we just be careful to always use the exemplar class in the Schema?
Could we alternatively declare them equivalent to each other? i.e..

<element name="boys" equivClass="friends:guys" type="string"/>
<element name="guys" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>



2. Is equivClass transitive?
i.e. If we declare the following:

<element name="group" type="string"/>
<element name="boys" equivClass="friends:group" type="string"/>
<element name="guys" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>

If in the Schema we declare <group>, an XML document instance can
contain <boys>, but could it also contain <guys>?


3. Can an element be declared with more than one equivClass?
i.e.
<element name="group" type="string"/>
<element name="males" type="string"/>
<element name="boys" equivClass="group males"  type="string"/>

I assume not as 'equivClass' is just a single attribute of the "element"

type defined in the XML Schema Schema WD 17/12/99.  But is there some
way of implementing this concept anyway?


I hope these questions raise issues about the support for
interoperability.

Thanks for your time.
 Michael




Roger wrote:

Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2000 15:56:43 -0500
From: "Roger L. Costello" <costello@mitre.org>
Subject: XML Schema support for Interoperability?

Hi Folks,

I am interested in discussing what support XML Schemas provide for
enabling interoperability.  Below I present my understanding of the
support that XML Schemas provide.  If there are other ways that XML
Schemas enable interoperability I would be interested in hearing them.

...

Oftentimes in daily conversation there are several ways to express
something.
  - For example, "The boys went hiking." or "The guys went hiking".
     . Thus, "boys" and "guys" are equivalent.  Which word is used
       may depend upon what part of the country you live in, what
       mood you're in, or any number of factors.

We would like to be able to express this "equivalence" capability in XML

Schemas.
  - We would like to be able to declare in the schema an element
    called "boys", an element called "guys", and state that "guys"
    is equivalent to "boys".  Thus, instance documents can use
    either "boys" or "guys", depending on their preference.

With XML Schemas we can create an element (called the exemplar) and then

create other elements which state that they are equivalent to the
exemplar.  For example,

<element name="boys" type="string"/>
<element name="guys" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>

XML Schemas enables us to explicitly state that guys is equivalent to
boys.

If I write an application which expects a <boys> element, and I get an
XML document which contains a <guys> element then I can go to the XML
Schema document to see if <guys> is equivalent to the expected <boys>
element.  Thus, the schema is acting as an "interoperability schema".

A nice feature of the equivClass capability is that over time new
elements can be added to the schema and declared to be equivalent to the

<boys> element.  For example,

<element name="fellas" equivClass="friends:boys" type="string"/>

Without any change, the application will continue to seemlessly work as
it consults the interoperability schema for equivalences.

Pretty cool, aye?  /Roger





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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Fri Jan 28 00:55:13 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
In-Reply-To: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200001280055.TAA13882@hesketh.net>

At 05:59 PM 1/27/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>We're all busy preaching
>(and selling our products and services to) the converted here on
>XML-Dev, but it's sometimes useful to stop and see how XML is playing
>in the outside world.

Agreed.  On XML-Dev and a few other XML-centric lists, I feel like we're
conquering the world.  On almost every other list on which I participate, I
feel like the lone XML whacko.

Frustrating, but reality.

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jan 28 01:28:17 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Attribute normalisation and character entities
References: <3890DB3C.327AC1B1@pacbell.net>
Message-ID: <86qrbf$2p6q$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <3890DB3C.327AC1B1@pacbell.net>,
David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net> wrote:
>The errata preclude that interpretation.  Line end normalization is done
>first, and yet afterwards you can still find a CRLF (or a plain CR) in the
>pre-normalization attribute text.

Oops, I missed that.  I would have expected them to remove the cr-lf->lf
translation if it's already been done; the whole point of it is to
deal with the way operating systems represent line ends, so why do it
twice?

I think we need a formal clarification (at least). Is anyone from the
syntax WG here?

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 28 01:34:37 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: A outside perspective
In-Reply-To: <1EF0C92BCCDAD2118FD40020480E269B01B0B537@10EEXCHANGE>
References: <1EF0C92BCCDAD2118FD40020480E269B01B0B537@10EEXCHANGE>
Message-ID: <14480.61912.157652.433688@localhost.localdomain>

Brown, Sam writes:

 > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.

If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.


Tautologically yours,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk  Fri Jan 28 09:27:42 2000
From: sebastian.rahtz at computing-services.oxford.ac.uk (Sebastian Rahtz)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
In-Reply-To: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain>
References: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <14481.24762.907012.149073@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>


This contribution is by far the finest, I thought:

   Finally, in conclusion, as an American, I am saddened that the
   Internet seems to have been commandeered by a European based
   protocol. Was America so short of talent we had to buy
   the HTML protocol from Tom Berners-Lee at CERN ? 
   
   Think of the security implications of the worlds strongest economy,
   running an e-commerce protocol developed by a foreigner from Socialist
   Europe. Remember the wall has not been down for that long. Who knows
   what kind of trojans might be lurking within the depths of
   these complicated protocols.

There is just a tiny worry in my mind that maybe, just maybe, the
author was being serious.

Sebastian


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From haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de  Fri Jan 28 09:31:03 2000
From: haustein at ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de (Stefan Haustein)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: #PCDATA "element": Yes!
References: <yqz2iu0fs8kl.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <389161AC.42F89B76@ls8.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

Nils Klarlund wrote:
> 
> An alternative approach would have declared "content" to simply
> consist of just element nodes and text nodes ("text nodes" as in
> XPATH) representing character data.  Then there would be no need for
> (2), since a content model now describes a regular language over the
> alphabet consisting of what you would expect: element names and the
> token text() (or #PCDATA).  And, you'd be able to describe, say, HTML
> with Appendix elements that must appear at the end:
> 
>   ((#PCDATA | H1 | H2 |...)*, Appendix*)
> 
> So, the distinction between element content and mixed content is a
> needless one that both restricts what can be expressed and that
> muddles the conceptual framework.  (The way of treating content just
> outlined is what we chose for the DSD schema notation, incidentally.)

I was already wondering why this was not done in the current XML 
schema definition: In my opinion, the whole concept of a "content 
model" could be removed, removing some possibilities for 
inconsistencies: Implementing XML schema, you are always wondering 
about things like "what, if the given content type 'empty', and an
explicit <type> is given. Does the given type override the content 
specification? Do I trow an error? But maybe the given type 
is empty, too, so I need to check for consistency.....  

Best regards

Stefan

-- 
Stefan Haustein
University of Dortmund
Computer Science VIII
www-ai.cs.uni-dortmund.de

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From chipx86 at portaldesign.net  Fri Jan 28 10:05:12 2000
From: chipx86 at portaldesign.net (Christian Hammond)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Expat & internal entities
Message-ID: <20000128020441.A16955@C-sik.lilo.cx>

I have been working on this problem for a few hours now, and haven't gotten
much further. When something like &lt; or &nbsp; is parsed in expat, I want
to be able to recieve it and do what I want with it. I can capture &nbsp;
by using XML_SetDefaultHandler(), but the &lt;, &gt;, &amp;, and &apos; don't
get captured. They automatically get transformed to <, >, &, and ".

What can I do about this? It is pretty important for my parser, and I don't
feel like hacking the expat source code :)

-- 
Christian Hammond - chipx86@portaldesign.net
Portal Web Design - http://www.portaldesign.net
Mino XML Parser   - http://mino.portaldesign.net
   Last night as I lay in bed looking at the stars, I thought, "Where
   the hell is the ceiling?"

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From uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com  Fri Jan 28 10:09:41 2000
From: uche.ogbuji at fourthought.com (uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: Your message of "27 Jan 2000 11:10:51 +0100."
             <m3k8kvg6z8.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> 
Message-ID: <200001281009.DAA08207@localhost.localdomain>

[Snip, re: groves]

> However, it has not been presented in an effective manner. Almost the
> only piece of information about it that is easy to understand for a
> programmer is Paul Prescod's tutorial[1]. I have read it, worked with
> SGML, DSSSL and similar things for years, and even so I, personally,
> did not really understand it until I got an explanation from Eliot
> Kimber at a conference.

Very intersting.  It looks as if I'll have to seek out Mr. Kimber, guru tokens 
in hand.  I, too used to throw up my hands at any mention of groves, given the 
stream of perverse jargon that seemed to accompany its discussion.  Then I 
came across Paul Prescod's motivations of the Grove model in this list, which 
whetted my appetite.  I followed his links to his tutorial, and I was hooked 
on what was obviously a simple and powerful concept at root.

The main problem was that at that point I stood in the shallow end of an 
obviously deep and rich pool, but as soon as I tried to explore further, 
following the links Paul suggested, I found myself drowning in such 
inscrutable jargon that I half expected the waters to start spouting Foucault 
and Battaille.

Either someone needs to finish the job that Paul started, and make what 
everyone insists is such a simple concept, well, simple.  We need a Richard 
Feynman of groves, and I think if Paul had more time, it would be he.  Some of 
us, like Lars and I, sense grove's latent power intuitively, but until we can 
find a guru to translate it into English (or Norsk) we're pretty much 
helpless.  Others are more practical and simply refuse to listen when someone 
insists on speaking Klingon in order to explain checkers.  Steve Newcom can 
rant all he wants about the W3C's scorn of grove holy writ, but W3C members 
are only human, and I can hardly fault them for giving the cold shoulder to 
anything they can't understand, and which no-one is making a useful effort to 
help them understand.  Of course, Eliot Kimber might have pulled as many W3C 
members as he could  aside for the Yoda session before resigning in disgust as 
Steve describes it, but the W3C has many members.  One person can hardly be 
expected to nurture them all to Jedi Knighthood.  What we need is the 
Upanishad to all the Grove Vedas, the Ecclesiastes to the Grove Deuteronomy, 
the... you get the idea (not!)  Give us the word, and we shall find our own 
path to enlightement.

And if anyone can wander a more annoying path of metaphors than I've just 
completed, I'll be the first in line to shoot him.

Boy do I need to get to bed.

-- 
Uche Ogbuji
Fourthought, Inc., IT Consultants
uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com	(970)481-0805
Software engineering, project management, Intranets and Extranets
http://Fourthought.com		http://OpenTechnology.org



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From north at synopsys.COM  Fri Jan 28 10:49:14 2000
From: north at synopsys.COM (Simon North)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <200001281009.DAA08207@localhost.localdomain>
References: Your message of "27 Jan 2000 11:10:51 +0100."             <m3k8kvg6z8.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> 
Message-ID: <200001281048.LAA16361@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>

Lars Marius Garshol said:

> Very intersting.  It looks as if I'll have to seek out Mr. Kimber,
> guru tokens in hand.  I, too used to throw up my hands at any mention
> of groves, given the stream of perverse jargon that seemed to
> accompany its discussion.  

For me, Eliot (Doctor Macro) would fill the role although I got my 
HyTime initiation from Steve Newcomb and Michel Biezunski. 
Paul's links are excellent, and his tutorial is one of the best, but if 
the URL hasn't already circulated I'd point everyone to Isogen's 
excellent set of white papers at:

	http://www.isogen.com/papers/ 

which includes an extremely helpful paper by Eliot himself 
(Managing SGML Architectures and Object Models                     
with Groves, http://www.isogen.com/papers/grovemng.html).

It's high time Steve DeRose talked to Kluwer about a second 
edition of the book (Making Hypermedia Work)!

Me, I'd love to write a 'Teach Yourself HyTime in 21 Days" but 
somehow I can't see my acquisitions editor at Macmillan 
swallowing that one!

Simon North
"Teach Yourself XML in 21 Days"
 


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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 28 11:21:42 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
In-Reply-To: <14481.24762.907012.149073@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
References: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain>
	<14481.24762.907012.149073@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <14481.31599.158324.448604@localhost.localdomain>

Sebastian Rahtz writes:

 > This contribution is by far the finest, I thought:
 > 
 >    Finally, in conclusion, as an American, I am saddened that the
 >    Internet seems to have been commandeered by a European based
 >    protocol. Was America so short of talent we had to buy
 >    the HTML protocol from Tom Berners-Lee at CERN ? 
 >    
 >    Think of the security implications of the worlds strongest economy,
 >    running an e-commerce protocol developed by a foreigner from Socialist
 >    Europe. Remember the wall has not been down for that long. Who knows
 >    what kind of trojans might be lurking within the depths of
 >    these complicated protocols.
 > 
 > There is just a tiny worry in my mind that maybe, just maybe, the
 > author was being serious.

It's Slashdot -- the author probably was being serious.  The author
was probably also 15 or 16 and perfectly capable of breaking the
encryption on DVDs in under 36 hours, so beware.

Nevertheless, there were many good points about the costs and benefits 
of using XML elsewhere in the thread.  

For example, one of the free software projects I contribute to is
FlightGear (http://www.flightgear.org/), the open source flight
simulator.  Eventually, they may choose to use XML-based configuration
and save formats, but even with an XML parser, that's a lot of hassle
when they can parse line- and field-oriented files within only a few
lines of code (and they don't have to bundle a parser library either).


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp  Fri Jan 28 12:56:21 2000
From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: a case in OASIS test suite
References: <026601bf68ab$bb24ca30$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp>
Message-ID: <037a01bf6990$a1a95720$80f5a8c0@246.ne.jp>

Richard Tobin wrote:
>
> >After revisiting the description in XML 1.0 Sec. 4.1, It still looks non-WF
> >to me.
> 
> See erratum E34 (http://www.w3.org/XML/xml-19980210-errata#E34) which
> applies to this section.
> 
> The idea is that it can't be a well-formedness constraint if not all
> processors would see the error, and those that read the external
> subset would think it was perfectly good.
> 

Thanks for pointing me to the erratum.

However, my understanding on the conclusion of E34 appears contrary to yours.

E34 seems to conclude that it is now legitimately made to be a well-
formedness constraint by saying that:

"the Name given in the entity reference must match that in an entity
 declaration that does not occur within the external subset or a
 parameter entity."

So I believe E34 makes it evident that OASIS inv-not-sa03 is not only
invalid but also not-well-formed.

= Takuki Kamiya  Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749   =
= FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731)         =



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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Fri Jan 28 13:18:47 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <200001281048.LAA16361@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>
References: Your message of "27 Jan 2000 11:10:51 +0100."             <m3k8kvg6z8.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> <200001281048.LAA16361@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>
Message-ID: <m3901a8hc7.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Simon North
|
| Lars Marius Garshol said:
| 
| > Very intersting.  It looks as if I'll have to seek out Mr. Kimber,
| > guru tokens in hand.  I, too used to throw up my hands at any mention
| > of groves, given the stream of perverse jargon that seemed to
| > accompany its discussion.  

Just for the record: that quote was by Uche Ogbuji, not me. 

--Lars M.


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Fri Jan 28 13:40:06 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
References: <14480.52714.388226.224406@localhost.localdomain><14481.24762.907012.149073@spqr.oucs.ox.ac.uk> <14481.31599.158324.448604@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <001701bf6996$0bb0a4c0$0101a8c0@tompassin>


David Megginson  wrote:
<snip/>

> Nevertheless, there were many good points about the costs and benefits
> of using XML elsewhere in the thread.
>
> For example, one of the free software projects I contribute to is
> FlightGear (http://www.flightgear.org/), the open source flight
> simulator.  Eventually, they may choose to use XML-based configuration
> and save formats, but even with an XML parser, that's a lot of hassle
> when they can parse line- and field-oriented files within only a few
> lines of code (and they don't have to bundle a parser library either).
>

On the other hand, if you translate your line-and-field format directly to
xml - and especially if you keep the xml for each record to a separate line
(yes, not fully general xml, I know)- you can hack that format with just a
little code, say a page of python or perl.  (Either with or without regular
expressions). And that code can be general enough to apply to an arbitrary
sample in that format, so you can change the fields in the file format
without changing the processing code. This could be just the thing for a
project's configuration files.

<aside>It's not really heresy, is it ;-) ???</aside>

Tom Passin


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From robin at isogen.com  Fri Jan 28 13:48:53 2000
From: robin at isogen.com (Robin Cover)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
In-Reply-To: <200001281009.DAA08207@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000128071621.26755A-100000@grind>

On Fri, 28 Jan 2000 uche.ogbuji@fourthought.com wrote:

[groves]
> > However, it has not been presented in an effective manner. Almost the
> > only piece of information about it that is easy to understand for a
> > programmer is Paul Prescod's tutorial[1]. I have read it, worked with

I can't help you with the Dao of Groves, but I do try to maintain
a collection of references to Grove exposition.  See:

"Groves, Grove Plans, and Property Sets in 
SGML/DSSSL/HyTime"

http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/topics.html#groves

This topical section contains references to a number of
shorter contributions -- which may or may not bring
enlightenment.  See, for example, some clarifying
comments by Steve Newcomb in September 1999:

http://www.oasis-open.org/cover/newcombGroves19990908.html

It's my belief that software based upon the "grove
paradigm" is being used with good success to solve some
very thorny problems.  To see the demos (and applications)
is pretty cool.

It's also true that "groves" represents a high level of
abstraction, and one still needs to (a) invent the property
set for the corresponding representations, and (b) decide
whether the theoretical base of SGML/DSSSL/HyTime/XML
is an ideal modeling heuristic.  As I understand the
situation, the Grove constructs do not conform entirely
to prevailing "object oriented" paradigm, which does not
privilege a (markup-based) distinction between "content"
and "not-content."  Whatever possible inconcinnities lurk
here (arguably a feature not a bug), I do witness some
interesting grove-based applications.  Most are large
scale, for solving large-scale problems.  Check out
GroveMinder.

- Robin Cover





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From richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Fri Jan 28 14:21:18 2000
From: richard at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: a case in OASIS test suite
References: <037a01bf6990$a1a95720$80f5a8c0@246.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <86s8ks$mlv$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

In article <037a01bf6990$a1a95720$80f5a8c0@246.ne.jp>,
Takuki Kamiya <kamiya@rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> wrote:
>E34 seems to conclude that it is now legitimately made to be a well-
>formedness constraint by saying that:
>
>"the Name given in the entity reference must match that in an entity
> declaration that does not occur within the external subset or a
> parameter entity."

Yes, I misread it.

This seems to mean that a non-validating parser that reads the
external subset even when standalone="yes" must perform a check
when expanding entities to see where they were declared.

What is the status of a document like this:

<?xml version="1.0" standalone="yes"?>
<!DOCTYPE foo [
<!ENTITY % pe "<!ENTITY e 'hello'>">
%pe;
]>
<foo>&e;</foo>

&e; refers to a declaration that occurs in a parameter entity, so it
is not well-formed.  Or did they mean "external parameter entity"?

There seems to be a typo in the Rationale for this erratum.  The
second sentence contrasts a processor that doesn't read the external
subset with one that (also) doesn't.

-- Richard
-- 
Spam filter: to mail me from a .com/.net site, put my surname in the headers.

"The Internet is really just a series of bottlenecks joined by high
speed networks." - Sam Wilson

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Fri Jan 28 14:52:16 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML  Infoset
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <m3snzi6yfx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Norman Gray
| 
| When I read the auxiliary XML specs (DOM, InfoSet, XLink,...), my
| first thought was `why are they creating a complicated version of
| HyTime?'.

You are not the only one to react that way, although a case could be
made for the DOM being slightly more than just a new version of
HyTime.
 
|     (a) Simple is not the same as easy.  The flip-side of the
|     Simplicity is that the standard is somewhat abstract (ahem!)
|     and, like all grand projects, has its own universe of concepts.

To me it seems that there has been an ISO culture and that the meeting
of the W3C and the ISO has been something of a cultural collision,
where much confusion has been caused by the sides taking different
approaches to slightly different problems and using wildly different
terminology. 

The SGML standards family has an impressive glossary of well-defined
terms, but it often seems that this has been as much of a disadvantage
as an advantage, and it certainly has put people off.

|     In other words, the standard does not give the impression, up
|     front, that the effort of understanding it will be repaid.  This
|     is a pity.

Amen.
 
|     (b) Separately from that, I felt that the standard was rather
|     confusingly written; I strongly suspect, however, that this was
|     because of the constraints of writing according to the ISO format.
|     My impression was that there were at least _four_ standards here,
|     which were linked but independent.  Having all four in the one
|     document produces an indigestibly rich pudding.

This is perhaps better left for others to respond to, but this is also
my impression. 

| It would appear that once you have absorbed 10744, the XML auxiliary
| specs could be defined _extremely_ compactly in terms of the
| concepts of 10744 (the InfoSet would be just a property set, the DOM
| just a grove plan, XLink a set of HyTime options, and so on).

While this is true, one has to ask the question of what would happen
if the W3C did this. Imagine if you had to understand ISO 10744 to be
able to approach the XML recommendations at all. Where would XML be
today marketing-wise if this were the case?

Of course, it might have gotten much further technology-wise, but of
what use would that be?

| In this spirit, James Clark's `Comparison of SGML and XML' document
| is essentially a definition of XML = SGML + the XML declaration +
| three pages of commentary, and makes the 30-page XML Recommendation
| look bloated.
 
This is perhaps an even better example. The XML recommendation is 30
pages, while this spec would effectively be 10 pages plus the entire
ISO 8879 standard...

| What appears to be happening now is that HyTime is being reinvented
| piecemeal -- in the auxiliary specs -- which is bad for just the
| reasons Nils mentioned: specs seem to contradict each other, act on
| different information sets, require a forest of new terminology and
| concepts which may or may not be isomorphic to each other.

I agree to some extent, and I think one way to handle this would be to
do a scaled-down version of property sets for the XML specifications
and then build things on that. This means that most of the difficult
stuff would have to go (grove plans, for example) and the terminology
might have to be simplified, but the simple essence could be kept.

Whether this is possible at this stage is another matter.

--Lars M.


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From dent at oofile.com.au  Fri Jan 28 15:47:01 2000
From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: expat  tree-builder (dom)
In-Reply-To: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063E@mail.turnstone.com>
References: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548063E@mail.turnstone.com>
Message-ID: <v04210104b4b7674914fc@[192.168.0.1]>

At 11:00 -0800 24/1/00, Doug Forman wrote:
>I've been experimenting with the jclark's expat parser.  I compiled it on
>linux, and it works just great.  However, finding tags and data by
>implementing the callback functions is cumbersome.
Doug

Try expatpp which provides:
1) a c++ wrapper around expat making it easier to override
2) "sub-parsers" which can be invoked like sub-routines to parse just a few
tags inside a known structure.

Our OOFILE Open Source Report Writer uses expatpp to read in report
layouts, styles, database schema and data. In particular it offers a bunch
of example code showing how the sub-parsers can be used. We have
sub-parsers for layout, database schema etc.

Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia
OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows
PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability
http://www.oofile.com.au/

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From larsga at garshol.priv.no  Fri Jan 28 15:38:31 2000
From: larsga at garshol.priv.no (Lars Marius Garshol)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
In-Reply-To: <yqz2iu0fs8kl.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>
References: <yqz2iu0fs8kl.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>
Message-ID: <m3ln5a6wb0.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>


* Lars Marius Garshol
|
| So I see several reasons for the general failure to understand what
| groves are all about: [...]

* Nils Klarlund
| 
| Or maybe that groves are just too abstract? 

I don't really think so. The concept of objects (nodes) with
attributes (properties) and a defining set of declarations (property
set) should be familiar to most programmers.

| In fact, even the XML quintessence, trees, is not a clear sell:
| recursion and trees are a standard part of a computer science
| curriculum, but these concepts are not easily swallowed by all.

I think you have to elaborate on this; at least I have no idea what
you are referring to here.

| I am not qualified to comment on SGML itself, but even XML 1.0 does
| appear to be suffering from over-conceptualization (too many
| concepts that don't fit together too precisely).  As a simple
| example, look at content models:
| 
| - a content model is not a model for content in general, but only two
|   kinds of content, namely elements and character data, not processing
|   instructions and not comments (incidentally, it could have been
|   termed "markup model" as well I think, since markup is a more
|   general concept than content)
| 
| - the content model concept is further split into two concepts:
| 
|   (1) element content, which allows only elements in content
|   (2) mixed content, which allows character data interspersed
|       with elements

This criticism is undeserved, I think. Content models describe the
allowed _structural_ content of an element. Comments are not affected
since they are not considered part of the document at all, which
definitely makes sense. PIs are not affected by content models because
they are not considered part of the structure described by a DTD,
being extensions added orthogonally across applications.

As for mixed and element content I don't really see how that qualifies
as two concepts. It's quite simply a means of saying where text is
allowed. Admittedly the allowed forms of mixed content models is
something of a special case, but that has its reasons and doesn't have
anything to do with over-conceptualization.
 
| An alternative approach would have declared "content" to simply
| consist of just element nodes and text nodes ("text nodes" as in
| XPATH) representing character data.  Then there would be no need for
| (2), since a content model now describes a regular language over the
| alphabet consisting of what you would expect: element names and the
| token text() (or #PCDATA).  And, you'd be able to describe, say,
| HTML with Appendix elements that must appear at the end:
| 
|   ((#PCDATA | H1 | H2 |...)*, Appendix*)

SGML has this, but it was cut in XML because of all the problems with
it. That decision might be contested on various grounds, but I don't
think this has anything to do with over-conceptualization.
 
--Lars M.


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From Boxin.Dai at SARAIDE.COM  Fri Jan 28 15:45:28 2000
From: Boxin.Dai at SARAIDE.COM (Boxin Dai)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: white space
Message-ID: <700651BBC5DFD211B96800C04F7C985E3ED382@devis006.ott.saraide.net>

Hello, Everyone:

I use SUN's parser to parser a XML document based on DOM. But due to white
space and "\n" in document, I can not parser it. Once remove all white space
and "\n", it is success. I try to use builder.ignoringWhiteSpace(true);, but
it still does work. For example, the Node has only one child, but when I use
hetChildNodes(), it will return 3 child nodes. I print the node name, the
first one is "#text". Where it is come from? Does anybody know how to handle
this problem? Thanks you very much.

Boxin Dai
Software Designer
Saraide.com
3026 Solandt Road
Kanata,Ontario K2K 2A5
Tel:   (613) 270-5452
Fax:   (613) 270-5411
email: boxin.dai@saraide.com
web:   www.saraide.com



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From klarlund at research.att.com  Fri Jan 28 17:17:56 2000
From: klarlund at research.att.com (Nils Klarlund)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML Infoset
Message-ID: <yqz2r9f2und3.fsf@fish-ha.research.att.com>


Lars wrote in response to something I must have garbled:

> | In fact, even the XML quintessence, trees, is not a clear sell:
> | recursion and trees are a standard part of a computer science
> | curriculum, but these concepts are not easily swallowed by all.
> 
> I think you have to elaborate on this; at least I have no idea what
> you are referring to here.
> 

In my experience, undergraduate students must sometimes struggle quite
a bit just to understand trees and their classical algorithms.  The
challenge is to convince the outside world (to take up the thread by
Meggison) that XML is an utterly practical interface to ideas that
seemed too abstract in school.  

The XML golden standard that defines the canonical tree model should
be a technical propaganda piece: I would put a little XML document
(like the one from the Infoset) at the beginning together with a cute
little drawing of the tree that the document represents (and, the tree
represents the document, nothing more, nothing less, please).  Then, I
would proceed by explaining that this tree is of the form tree
T=(V,E,<) etc. as taught in school and where "<" is the document order
on element and text nodes. The model could be explained then in half a
page or so.  That would be the path of least resistance I think.  And,
it would help establishing the legitimacy of XML to the academic
world, since then even computer science professors would be able
understand it:).


> | I am not qualified to comment on SGML itself, but even XML 1.0 does
> | appear to be suffering from over-conceptualization (too many
> | concepts that don't fit together too precisely).  As a simple
> | example, look at content models:
> | 
> | - a content model is not a model for content in general, but only two
> |   kinds of content, namely elements and character data, not processing
> |   instructions and not comments (incidentally, it could have been
> |   termed "markup model" as well I think, since markup is a more
> |   general concept than content)
...
> This criticism is undeserved, I think. Content models describe the
> allowed _structural_ content of an element. 

OK, there is another concept called "structural content".  That seems
to be an important one.  We should understand a "content model" to be
an abbreviation for "structural content model".

> Comments are not affected since they are not considered part of the
> document at all, which definitely makes sense. 

No, I don't think so.  Some of the XSLT programs that I have written
also transform the comments, which are certainly a part of the
documents that I write.  The distinctions you are making are valid in
your domain, but I think it is easy to argue that they are confusing
in general.

> As for mixed and element content I don't really see how that qualifies
> as two concepts. It's quite simply a means of saying where text is
> allowed. Admittedly the allowed forms of mixed content models is
> something of a special case, but that has its reasons and doesn't have
> anything to do with over-conceptualization.
>  

Yes, it does, because you are trying to force SGML experiences upon
XML by minting them as more concepts.  I don't know what these
experiences are, neither the annotated XML 1.0 specification, nor the
SGML Handbook I just lugged into my office offered me an explanation
that I could understand.  And, whatever they are, they are probably
not relevant to XML as a general data exchange language.

/Nils

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From andrewl at microsoft.com  Fri Jan 28 17:53:38 2000
From: andrewl at microsoft.com (Andrew Layman)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: XML: A outside perspective
Message-ID: <33D189919E89D311814C00805F1991F7F4AD46@RED-MSG-08>

Regarding the quote and the question below, the author may have been serious
(I doubt it), but is clearly ignorant: Trojans did not hide in the Trojan
horse; Argives did.  

-----Original Message-----
From: Sebastian Rahtz

...
   Think of the security implications of the worlds strongest economy,
   running an e-commerce protocol developed by a foreigner from Socialist
   Europe. Remember the wall has not been down for that long. Who knows
   what kind of trojans might be lurking within the depths of
   these complicated protocols.

There is just a tiny worry in my mind that maybe, just maybe, the
author was being serious.

Sebastian

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 28 18:15:12 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
Message-ID: <14481.56414.744229.568251@localhost.localdomain>

SAX is the Simple API for XML, a very-widely implemented event-based
interface for processing XML documents.

The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download at

  http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/


HIGHLIGHTS
----------

1. Namespace support.

2. Configurability and extensibility through features and properties.

3. A new interface and base class for SAX filters.

4. Adapters for using SAX1 parsers with SAX2 and vice-versa.

5. Way too much JavaDoc documentation.

6. Public domain (even less restrictive than Open Source).


Please send comments and bug reports to sax@megginson.com.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From SAurenz at Rational.Com  Fri Jan 28 19:04:01 2000
From: SAurenz at Rational.Com (Aurenz, Scot)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:40 2004
Subject: Expat & internal entities
Message-ID: <65B141FB11CCD211825700A0C9D609BC01B0AFCD@chef.lex.rational.com>


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Hammond [mailto:chipx86@portaldesign.net]
> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2000 5:05 AM
> To: xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject: Expat & internal entities
> 
> 
> I have been working on this problem for a few hours now, and 
> haven't gotten
> much further. When something like &lt; or &nbsp; is parsed in 
> expat, I want
> to be able to recieve it and do what I want with it. I can 
> capture &nbsp;
> by using XML_SetDefaultHandler(), but the &lt;, &gt;, &amp;, 
> and &apos; don't
> get captured. They automatically get transformed to <, >, &, and ".
> 
> What can I do about this? It is pretty important for my 
> parser, and I don't
> feel like hacking the expat source code :)

	Do you have a CharacterData handler defined? If so, I think
	that is your problem. You need to handle everything through
	the DefaultHandler instead.

	I have this problem as well. When I traced thru the expat
	code, I found that it translates these entities if there
	is a CharacterData handler defined. By getting rid of this
	handler, it should give you the raw entities in the DefaultHandler.

	(I say "should" because I haven't implemented the fix myself yet,
	 but this is what I'm planning to do...)

	--Scot

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Fri Jan 28 19:16:41 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675286@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

Hmm ...

I _really_ don't like the way that the SAX1 and SAX2 stuff is 
all mixed up together, particularly since most of SAX1 is 
deprecated.

Like it or not SAX2 is a completely new API, so why not leave 
SAX1 untouched (ie. no @deprecated's) and have a completely 
fresh org.xml.sax2.* tree? 

And I still think there needs to be a SAX2 equivalent of 
ParserFactory ... bizarrely it's easier to create a SAX1
Parser in an implementation independent way than it is to do 
the same for an XMLReader. A couple of people volunteered to 
try out the XMLReaderImplementations stuff I put together, and 
hopefully they'll be able to give some feedback on it to this 
list.

One issue that I hit in putting that together is that there's 
currently no way to determine an XMLReaders feature support 
until _after_ it's been created. That's a bit awkward, since if 
we have multiple implementations available we might want to use 
the feature set to decide which one to instantiate ...

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/

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From david at megginson.com  Fri Jan 28 20:07:21 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Fri, 28 Jan 2000 19:16:07 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675286@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m3puumvu54.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> Hmm ...

> I _really_ don't like the way that the SAX1 and SAX2 stuff is 
> all mixed up together, particularly since most of SAX1 is 
> deprecated.

Of the core classes and interfaces, only Parser, AttributeList,
DocumentHandler, and HandlerBase (which is really a helper anyway) are
deprecated.  All of the rest -- InputSource, Locator, EntityResolver,
DTDHandler, ErrorHandler, SAXException, and SAXParseException -- are
left untouched.

> Like it or not SAX2 is a completely new API, so why not leave SAX1
> untouched (ie. no @deprecated's) and have a completely fresh
> org.xml.sax2.* tree?

Actually, most of it is the same.  For the C++ implementation,
obviously, we won't bother with the deprecated interfaces and classes.

> And I still think there needs to be a SAX2 equivalent of 
> ParserFactory ... bizarrely it's easier to create a SAX1
> Parser in an implementation independent way than it is to do 
> the same for an XMLReader. A couple of people volunteered to 
> try out the XMLReaderImplementations stuff I put together, and 
> hopefully they'll be able to give some feedback on it to this 
> list.

I haven't ruled out putting something in before SAX2 goes final, but
it has to be very small and very simple.


Thanks for the comments, and all the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From paul at prescod.net  Fri Jan 28 22:05:49 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Non-Unicode Character Sets
Message-ID: <389212BB.4FF1FFEE@prescod.net>

I am told that conversion of some character sets through Unicode is
lossy and cannot be round-tripped. But it occurs ot me that as long as
one has the private use area, "unknown" characters can always be
preserved. If a particular mapping loses information, isn't that more a
weakness in the mapping then in Unicode itself? Are there some
standardized national character sets with so many non-Unicode characters
that they cannot fit into the PUA? Even with planes 15 and 16?

Is there any character set in the world that cannot be considered a
"subset of Unicode"?

-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
The new revolutionaries believe the time has come for an aggressive 
move against our oppressors. We have established a solid beachhead 
on Friday. We now intend to fight vigorously for 'casual Thursdays.'
  -- who says America's revolutionary spirit is dead?

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From JBLayer at netscape.net  Fri Jan 28 22:32:29 2000
From: JBLayer at netscape.net (Jim Layer)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
Message-ID: <20000128223219.8778.qmail@nwcst268.netaddress.usa.net>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> wrote:
> Like it or not SAX2 is a completely new API, so why not leave 
> SAX1 untouched (ie. no @deprecated's) and have a completely 
> fresh org.xml.sax2.* tree? 

I view this (SAX2 in org.xml.sax) as a Good Thing - I can put
the new jar in play with no CLASSPATH change and no impact to
current apps - 'til they hit the next update cycle, rebuild,
and then spew forth deprecation warnings if they have been so
slack as to have ignored other forms of interface change
warnings (email, interface doc updates, etc.). Also serves to 
aid locating change points when everyone *does* pay attention.
If not deprecation on the old stuff, then maybe a greater chance
for fat, dumb, and happy 'til we pull the old jar in a subsequent
release cycle. 'Course deprecation implies (from SUN's doc
on the subject "...it will probably cease to exist in the future")
that David's on the hook for another SAX <grin/> (do I hear a
groan from up north?).

> And I still think there needs to be a SAX2 equivalent of 
> ParserFactory ... bizarrely it's easier to create a SAX1
> Parser in an implementation independent way than it is to do 
> the same for an XMLReader. A couple of people volunteered to 
> try out the XMLReaderImplementations stuff I put together, and 
> hopefully they'll be able to give some feedback on it to this 
> list.

I'm one - and will feedback here when I've had a bit more time
to thrash about with it offline.

> One issue that I hit in putting that together is that there's 
> currently no way to determine an XMLReaders feature support 
> until _after_ it's been created. That's a bit awkward, since if 
> we have multiple implementations available we might want to use 
> the feature set to decide which one to instantiate ...

Believe this to be a Good Idea in general, whether coupled or not
with the search component of Miles' stuff. Given a well known
interface, even if search doesn't play lightweight & general enough
for SAX2, then at least there's an official hook to use in creating
variations on Miles' theme. Creating a weighty parser like Xerces,
then inspecting feature, is expensive - a well known static method
*seems* like it would be much faster. Guess I'll try it and get back...

BTW, David, all of the hard work is appreciated... Won't have a chance
to take it out for a spin 'til Monday (but between you and
Miles I have plenty of reading material for the weekend ;-)

Regards,

Jim Layer  

____________________________________________________________________
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From prasadm at crt.com  Fri Jan 28 22:51:35 2000
From: prasadm at crt.com (prasadm@crt.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
Message-ID: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6654@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>

Hi folks,

Asking for help once again. Has anyone been successful in creating HTML
tags through XSL. What really my problem is we have an XML document of
say 100 records. Now I want to split them up into 10 layers/div's containing
10 rows
in each page. I want to create something like this.

<xsl:template match="ROW">
    &lt; /TABLE &gt;
    &lt; /FORM &gt;
<xsl:apply-templates/>
</xsl:template>

The above XSL should generate for me the tags 
</TABLE></FORM> as part of the html doc being created. But instead 
these tags appear on the browser. Is there anyway to force these tags
to be part of the html doc. or Is it not possible at all?

Thanks,

Prasad M
Home:- 	630-595-0642
Work:-	312-974-6543
prasadm@crt.com <mailto:prasadm@crt.com> 



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From tbray at textuality.com  Fri Jan 28 23:04:38 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Non-Unicode Character Sets
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000128150228.0148f100@pop.intergate.ca>

At 04:05 PM 1/28/00 -0600, Paul Prescod wrote:
>I am told that conversion of some character sets through Unicode is
>lossy and cannot be round-tripped. 

Errr... deep waters here.  There are a few controversial areas in
Unicode and I'm not sure which one you are referring to.  But in the
general case I believe this to be false.  

The only example I can think of for which this is possibly the case are 
character repertoires that grow dynamically.  One example is the CJK 
ideographs; in various places in Asia they sometimes custom-create
characters, usually for use in proper names.  Another is the practice
of mathematics, where they from time to time create new characters, or
attach semantics to particular renditions of old characters (e.g. R in 
a Fraktur font) and it would be nice to treat these as characters.

>But it occurs ot me that as long as
>one has the private use area, "unknown" characters can always be
>preserved. 

Well, only between co-operating subgroups of users who agree on what's
going to go where.

>Are there some
>standardized national character sets with so many non-Unicode characters
>that they cannot fit into the PUA? Even with planes 15 and 16?

I doubt it.  None that are widely known anyhow.

>Is there any character set in the world that cannot be considered a
>"subset of Unicode"?

Yes.  THose that haven't been added yet.  For examples, go to unicode.org
and look at the candidates that are queued up for addition to future
versions of Unicode. 

Anyhow, is this a real problem anywhere? -T.

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From srn at techno.com  Fri Jan 28 23:39:52 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML  Infoset
In-Reply-To: <m3snzi6yfx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> (message from Lars Marius
	Garshol on 28 Jan 2000 15:52:18 +0100)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk> <m3snzi6yfx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
Message-ID: <200001282339.RAA01290@bruno.techno.com>

> [Lars Marius Garshol:]
> | [ Norman Gray]

> | When I read the auxiliary XML specs (DOM, InfoSet, XLink,...), my
> | first thought was `why are they creating a complicated version of
> | HyTime?'.
> 
> You are not the only one to react that way, although a case could be
> made for the DOM being slightly more than just a new version of
> HyTime.

The DOM is an API.  It describes functionality.  That's good.  The DOM
API implicitly operates on something that certainly seems like a grove
to me.  That's OK, and, in fact, it's just great when InfoSet
describes just what that grove-like something actually is.  HyTime
does not describe any APIs, so of course the DOM cannot be a
reinvention of HyTime.

> |     (b) Separately from that, I felt that the standard was rather
> |     confusingly written; I strongly suspect, however, that this was
> |     because of the constraints of writing according to the ISO format.

Too right.

> |     My impression was that there were at least _four_ standards here,
> |     which were linked but independent.  Having all four in the one
> |     document produces an indigestibly rich pudding.

Perhaps *much* too right.  Personally, I would estimate a higher
number than four.

However, the set of standards that is ISO/IEC 10744:1997 (HyTime)
interdepend in complex and important ways.  I don't think the overall
elegance of HyTime could have been achieved by segregating things like
groves from things like architectural forms, as separate standards
development activities.  HyTime's most significant contribution is not
any one of its separate component standards, but the sensible,
economical, simple and powerful way they all fit together, having
contributed vital requirements to each other.

The W3C process appears to be based on the naive belief that
independent design assignments for all the various aspects of
Web-based information interchange can be made to a plethora of
independent technical committees, and, in the end, everything can be
made to work together somehow.  Even when we combine all of the W3C's
favorite magic bullets (RDF, XML Namespaces, XML Schemas, etc.),
there's still no paradigm for the re-use of vocabulary-specific engine
software, and no doctrine providing for the validation of the use of
mixed vocabularies.  Thanks to the dazzlingly brilliant insights of
James Clark, who invented groves and who very significantly improved
architectural forms, HyTime 1997 (aka HyTime 2nd Edition) got the
basics of that stuff right -- very, very right.  The fact that these
insights have been systematically ignored by the leadership of the W3C
is tragic.  If I were working on W3C projects, I'd be very angry about
the way that my time is being blithely flushed down the toilet by
leaders who are trusted by everyone to know the state of the art, but
who don't really, and who portray themselves as trustworthily knowing
where W3C's technical developments are leading the world, when in fact
they do not.

As a public demonstration of what the leadership of the W3C does not
know, I hereby invite the press to question the W3C leadership about
how the W3C's standards-making efforts are addressing the blindingly
obvious global requirement for a standard doctrine as to how modularly
re-usable vocabulary-specific software engines can be used in
applications that process the documents that use those vocabularies.
For example,

* How will the XLink vocabulary be supportable by an Xlink engine, and
  the XHTML vocabulary be supported by an XHTML engine, with both
  engines usable in a variety of applications contexts, and with both
  engines able to be built and marketed by any software vendor, and
  used in any combination by any application developer?  (I suspect
  the W3C leadership's answer will be, "That's for The Software Vendor
  to figure out.")

* Even more fundamentally, how will a document's use of both
  vocabularies be validated?  When information interchange fails, it's
  vital to be able to point the finger of blame at either (1) the
  software that created the invalid use of the vocabulary, or (2) the
  software that could not understand a perfectly valid use of the
  vocabulary.  (The Web culture's notion that "If 80% of the
  information gets through, that's good enough", simply won't fly in
  business-to-business communications.  100% is absolutely required.
  I claim that there is no such thing as a useful B2B vocabulary in
  the absence of a vendor-neutral, application-neutral way to
  determine whether that vocabulary is being used properly in any
  given instance.  XML Schema *does not* address the problem of
  validating mixed vocabularies.  As far as I can tell, this
  fundamental problem doesn't even appear on that committee's radar.)
  (The answer, "That's for The Software Vendor to figure out," is
  obviously not a good answer.  Software vendors are not going to come
  up with a scheme whereby their product offerings can compete solely
  on their intrinsic value!  That job can only be for their designated
  consortium, the W3C, to do.)

* How will a software application that reads such a document invoke
  the two re-usable engines, incorporating their intelligence into
  itself?  (If the W3C does not provide an answer to this question,
  then there can be only one source for re-usable vocabulary-specific
  software engines, in which case the term "re-usable" is kind of a
  joke.  Long Live The Monopoly!  Let the Monopoly Own All The
  Business Vocabularies of the World!)

So far, the answers to these questions are undefined in W3C land, and
yet the answers are essential for information interchange in a world
that most of us hope will not always be entirely dominated by a single
software monopoly.  The answers to the above questions are fundamental
to the development of any business vocabulary, and several fundamental
business vocabularies are being developed by the W3C.  How will these
business vocabularies actually work together, huh?  Dear Ladies and
Gentlemen of the Press: Please demand the answers to the above
questions, and please publicize the answers you receive.  (Please also
be aware of how HyTime answers them, and of how HyTime's answers are
already working.  I'll be happy to help you with this, and so will
quite a number of other knowledgeable people.)

> | What appears to be happening now is that HyTime is being reinvented
> | piecemeal -- in the auxiliary specs -- which is bad for just the
> | reasons Nils mentioned: specs seem to contradict each other, act on
> | different information sets, require a forest of new terminology and
> | concepts which may or may not be isomorphic to each other.
> 
> I agree to some extent, and I think one way to handle this would be to
> do a scaled-down version of property sets for the XML specifications
> and then build things on that. This means that most of the difficult
> stuff would have to go (grove plans, for example) and the terminology
> might have to be simplified, but the simple essence could be kept.

We should all welcome such an outcome!

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
7101 Chase Oaks Boulevard 
Plano, Texas 75025 USA

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From tbray at textuality.com  Sat Jan 29 00:36:20 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and
  XML  Infoset
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000128163322.014c15c0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 05:39 PM 1/28/00 -0600, Steven R. Newcomb wrote:

[lots of stuff]

I don't think I have anything to add to the arguments about whether
the 10744 family of standards is being given its proper due.  But there
is one assertion here that ought to be addressed:

>The W3C process appears to be based on the naive belief that
>independent design assignments for all the various aspects of
>Web-based information interchange can be made to a plethora of
>independent technical committees, and, in the end, everything can be
>made to work together somehow.  

Hmm.  The W3C is well-supplied [some would say "infested"] with 
Co-ordination Groups which exist precisely to detect cases where
different working groups need to do extra work to ensure consistency
and interoperability between their output.  A tremendous amount of
time and effort goes into this work.  The committees are *not*
indepenent in theory or in practice.  It's reasonable to argue over
the quality of the results, but the "naive belief" that Steve describes
simply doesn't exist.

It is the case that there is no over-arching formal, architectural 
underpinning of the W3C's design for the future of the Web.  TimBL has 
some living documents that he updates regularly, at

  http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/

but they don't really have any normative force, and lots of people in the 
process disagree with parts of them.  There has been some discussion of
how such a formalization might be created, but nobody has to date
proposed anything that's politically viable. 

So what we have is a partitioning of the design problem, allowing parallel 
work by multiple groups of people, with an added cost due to the need for 
co-ordination.  The work in creating mammoth standards like 8879 and 10744 
is more centralized and in my experience mostly done by a really tiny group 
of individuals who do all the heavy lifting.  Arguably, you have to get 
better consistency end-to-end in the ISO system.

Well, we're all spectators at ringside; nobody knows what the right way
is to build the standards infrastructure for the largest experiment in
information processing ever attempted; everyone is making it up as they
go along.

I'm certainly not going to defend the W3C model of work as the be-all
and end-all or even go so far as to say that couldn't be improved 
quite a lot.  But at this point in history it seems obvious that of
the 3 models of work we have before us (ISO, IETF, W3C), none can be
said to have been shown to be either triumphant or bankrupt, based
on results.  The most likely conclusion is that they excel in different
problem domains.

I'll end with a question.  Steve asserts:

>  XML Schema *does not* address the problem of
>  validating mixed vocabularies.  As far as I can tell, this
>  fundamental problem doesn't even appear on that committee's radar.)

Is this true?  I haven't been following schema that closely but I know
the issue is for sure on their radar.  I would agree with Steve that
skipping this would be a pretty serious omission. -Tim


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From tpassin at idsonline.com  Sat Jan 29 01:20:22 2000
From: tpassin at idsonline.com (THOMAS PASSIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
References: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6654@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>
Message-ID: <008a01bf69f7$d9223700$0101a8c0@tompassin>

<prasadm@crt.com> wrote

> Hi folks,
>
> Asking for help once again. Has anyone been successful in creating HTML
> tags through XSL. What really my problem is we have an XML document of
> say 100 records. Now I want to split them up into 10 layers/div's
containing
> 10 rows
> in each page. I want to create something like this.
>
> <xsl:template match="ROW">
>     &lt; /TABLE &gt;
>     &lt; /FORM &gt;
> <xsl:apply-templates/>
> </xsl:template>
>
> The above XSL should generate for me the tags
> </TABLE></FORM> as part of the html doc being created. But instead
> these tags appear on the browser. Is there anyway to force these tags
> to be part of the html doc. or Is it not possible at all?
>
If you use the entities &lt; and so on, you will get those CHARACTERS (not
markup) in the output.  But they will be excaped characters, not markup, as
you have seen.
If you want to output a table element, you need to output  complete
elements, possibly like this:

<xsl:template match="ROW">
<table><form><xsl:apply-templates/></form</table>
</xsl:template>

There are other possiblities, but this is the easiest.

Tom Passin


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From cbullard at hiwaay.net  Sat Jan 29 02:18:47 2000
From: cbullard at hiwaay.net (Len Bullard)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
References: <Pine.GSO.3.96.1000128071621.26755A-100000@grind>
Message-ID: <38924B5B.4FDA@hiwaay.net>

The aggregate of W3C standards are a reinvention of HyTime in 
the sense that they set out to standardize the same scope of 
concepts.  If it looks like strip mining, in a sense it is, 
but that is Ok because as many of us know, many of the same 
people are involved.  There is no ISO vs W3C in this area.  
There are different authorities, but the same minions.  
XML is still SGML On The Web and while it may be fun or 
profitable to ignore that fact, it is still just ignorance. 
We came here to work together.  Some are asking about HyTime, 
so let's get into that.  It is worth doing.

It might be good to understand some history.  *ACK NO!  NOT THAT!* 

Why?  Politics and personalities are what they are, power, tactics 
all of that, but they get us no closer to understanding HyTime. It 
is true that I was around a bit after hyTime emerged, and worked 
with its inventors.  It is true that by the time we got to the 
Vancouver conference, and after some experience, I no longer had 
the foggiest idea what Eliot and Steven were saying in their
presentations.
  
Those experiences made me a believer in HTML in the same way 
IADS made me a believer in fixed tags for certain constructs 
in hypertext systems:  easy to learn, solves the problems at hand, 
gets the income stream started to feed the staff.  IOW, I may not 
be the brightest bulb, but I am qualified in the application of 
hypertext systems and if Mikey can't understand it, something 
is amiss.  A standard the user cannot apply is not a useful standard 
(see David, we can all be taut..).

HyTime is brilliant, but brilliance blinds as well as illuminates.  
Sometimes the best position for a light is behind, above and slightly 
to the left.  So, a statement for finding the position:  standards 
derail, in my experience, when the problem to be solved by them is 
not (adequately understood | clearly stated | closed).  I am asking 
Dr. Newcomb, the only one besides Dr. Goldfarb on this list who 
was there at the beginning to verify or refute the following, and 
fill in the rationale.  I would be delighted if Dr Goldfarb would 
help.

1.  True or False:  hyTime started (little H deliberate as a music 
standard.  The problem(s) to be solved were synchronization and an 
application language for a musical notation.  What requirements of music 
made the hyTime designers move into a larger scope of standardization 
(Intergrated Open Hypermedia:  Bibliographic Model).

2.  True of False:  There originally WAS a hyTime DTD.  Why was 
it abandoned?

3.  When at its most widely studied, HyTime included an exhaustive 
set of linking and location models.  At this point, the synchronization 
facility was expressed using these.  Why did linking and location become 
the dominant feature of HyTime?

4.  True or False:  Groves are a concept borrowed from DSSSL, a 
style language, itself, originally that was altered to include 
Semantics.  What requirement in a linking and location standard 
resulted in a unification with the DSSSL groves concept?

If we can understand the decisions made during the decade long 
design of ISO 10744, we can better understand the concepts because 
we will understand the problems it tries to solve before we try 
to understand how it solves them.  It took ten years to make 
HyTime obscure.  The W3C has beaten that speed record with 
the XML specs.  The XML Schema is a mess.  Put it with all the 
others and Dr. Newcomb is justified in saying this is a 
disaster.  So, yes, time for some simplifications.  Perhaps 
understanding the way another standard tried to solve the 
same problems is a clarifying experience.

BTW:  Tao.  It means, "the way".  In that system, there are 
many ways; they lead to the same place.   Aware intelligence 
can decide to go there together.. or not.  It is more important to 
understand that than it is to understand HyTime because 
the effect of community is much stronger than the effect 
of monopoly or consortium.   Authority is choice, and 
whether as in the Tao, this is opposites, or as in Tao, 
extremes of the same continuum, intelligence still 
must choose for community.

len



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From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp  Sat Jan 29 04:31:15 2000
From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: a case in OASIS test suite
References: <026601bf68ab$bb24ca30$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp> <037a01bf6990$a1a95720$80f5a8c0@246.ne.jp>
Message-ID: <000001bf6a13$33bcd740$c6f5a8c0@246.ne.jp>

Richard Tobin wrote:
>
> What is the status of a document like this:
> 
> <?xml version="1.0" standalone="yes"?>
> <!DOCTYPE foo [
> <!ENTITY % pe "<!ENTITY e 'hello'>">
> %pe;
> ]>
> <foo>&e;</foo>
> 
> &e; refers to a declaration that occurs in a parameter entity, so it
> is not well-formed.  Or did they mean "external parameter entity"?
> 

I have to guess the latter is the case. I mean otherwise it's awkward.

> There seems to be a typo in the Rationale for this erratum.  The
> second sentence contrasts a processor that doesn't read the external
> subset with one that (also) doesn't.
> 

Agreed. It seems that E34 has two wordings that need to be corrected.

= Takuki Kamiya  Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749   =
= FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731)         =

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From dent at oofile.com.au  Sat Jan 29 05:09:03 2000
From: dent at oofile.com.au (Andy Dent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: expat  tree-builder (dom)
In-Reply-To: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548064A@mail.turnstone.com>
References: <1D75577F3FBBD211896100104B973AB548064A@mail.turnstone.com>
Message-ID: <v04210102b4b82519de67@[192.168.0.1]>

Hi Doug
>Since my post, I was pressured to produce something, so I built something
>that sounds similar... a limitted  C++ wrapper around expat with utilities
>to configure the callbacks for you and collect tags and attributes interest.
The main added benefit of expatpp is the "sub-parser" model.

Parsing our report files is quite complex as we can nest multiple reports
within a single file and each report has independent
- report layout
- text styles attached to layout items
- adorners - serialised user code with user-saved data and signatures so
people can have
  shaders with their own logic.
- database schema
- data to import into the schema

Debugging this nested set of tags looked like a nightmare so I put a bit of
time into the sub-parser model. The static methods which are the callbacks
automatically handle the nesting depth so will return from the sub-parser
when it reaches its end tag. This vastly simplifies what the sub-parser has
to do. If it only needs to know a couple of tags within its domain then
that's all it evaluates in the startElement etc.

That also improves efficiency because you can optimise the checking of tags
for the most probable in a small locale. Our layout parser knows that it
will encounter <box> tags (CSS term used here to describe a box in which
<inline> elements are laid out) more often than others so can check for
them first.

With the sub-parsers having such limited domains we also are able to check
our output code rigorously by putting lots of asserts in the sub-parsers.

Andy Dent BSc MACS AACM, Software Designer, A.D. Software, Western Australia
OOFILE - Database, Reports, Graphs, GUI for c++ on Mac, Unix & Windows
PP2MFC - PowerPlant->MFC portability
http://www.oofile.com.au/

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From ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk  Sat Jan 29 13:12:03 2000
From: ht at cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Henry S. Thompson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML  Infoset
In-Reply-To: "Steven R. Newcomb"'s message of "Fri, 28 Jan 2000 17:39:02 -0600"
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk> <m3snzi6yfx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> <200001282339.RAA01290@bruno.techno.com>
Message-ID: <f5bn1ppnhsv.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>

"Steven R. Newcomb" <srn@techno.com> writes:

> XML Schema *does not* address the problem of validating mixed
> vocabularies.

Um, I know we've taken a lot of stick for releasing interim drafts
with less than pelucid prose, but I would have thought Chapter 4 of
the current PWD [1] makes it clear that _if_ I've understood you correctly 
in your use of the word 'vocabularies', XML Schema certainly does
address the problem, and I think solves it pretty well.  It certainly
addresses the question of how a document containing multiple
namespace-qualified information items can arrange for them to be
validated by independent, pre-existing schemas for those namespaces.

ht

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-xmlschema-1-19991217/
-- 
  Henry S. Thompson, HCRC Language Technology Group, University of Edinburgh
          W3C Fellow 1999--2001, part-time member of W3C Team
     2 Buccleuch Place, Edinburgh EH8 9LW, SCOTLAND -- (44) 131 650-4440
	    Fax: (44) 131 650-4587, e-mail: ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk
		     URL: http://www.ltg.ed.ac.uk/~ht/

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From cowan at locke.ccil.org  Sat Jan 29 19:07:42 2000
From: cowan at locke.ccil.org (John Cowan)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Non-Unicode Character Sets
In-Reply-To: <389212BB.4FF1FFEE@prescod.net> from "Paul Prescod" at Jan 28, 0 04:05:47 pm
Message-ID: <200001291920.OAA15349@locke.ccil.org>

Paul Prescod scripsit:

> I am told that conversion of some character sets through Unicode is
> lossy and cannot be round-tripped. But it occurs ot me that as long as
> one has the private use area, "unknown" characters can always be
> preserved.

Mappings have to serve various purposes: not just round-trippability,
which could be achieved by any arbitrary 1-1 mapping, but also
usefulness.  Not all character set standards agree on what counts
as a character, as opposed to a mere variant that need not be
represented.  Most of Unicode's compatibility characters were added
in order to satisfy these rather disjoint needs.

For example, the Korean standard KSC 5601 provides distinct codepoints
for different "readings" of Chinese characters (hanja) used in Korean writing.
The great bulk of all Chinese characters have only a single reading in
Korean (unlike Japanese), but some few have two, three, or more.
Providing distinct codepoints eased mappings between Korean hanja
and native Korean writing, as each hanja could be given a unique
mapping.

Unicode, however, unified Chinese characters into a single repertoire.
In order to permit round-tripping between KSC 5601 and Unicode,
compatibility characters were added to Unicode for each of the
multi-mapped hanja.

The character set CNS 11643 was not given this treatment, however,
and its (few) multiple mappings do not have Unicode equivalents.  Therefore,
round-tripping is not possible.

> Is there any character set in the world that cannot be considered a
> "subset of Unicode"?

The CCCII standard and its superset EACC (aka ANSI Z39.64) have
many multiple mappings and will not roundtrip through Unicode.

-- 
John Cowan                                   cowan@ccil.org
       I am a member of a civilization. --David Brin

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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 29 23:08:21 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000129230746.61163.qmail@hotmail.com>


unsubscribe xml-dev

From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
Reply-To: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
To: XMLDev list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: A outside perspective
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)

Brown, Sam writes:

  > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.

If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.


Tautologically yours,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
            http://www.megginson.com/

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From rk_muntha at hotmail.com  Sat Jan 29 23:33:13 2000
From: rk_muntha at hotmail.com (ravikumar munta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Message-ID: <20000129233239.68451.qmail@hotmail.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev


From: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
Reply-To: "ravikumar munta" <rk_muntha@hotmail.com>
To: david@megginson.com, xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev
Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2000 18:07:46 EST


unsubscribe xml-dev

From: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
Reply-To: David Megginson <david@megginson.com>
To: XMLDev list <xml-dev@ic.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: A outside perspective
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:33:12 -0500 (EST)

Brown, Sam writes:

  > I agree.  I'm still struggling to show its benefit to management.

If XML doesn't meet any specific requirement that cannot otherwise be
met as well or better, then it has no benefit at all.  XML is very
good for what it's good for, and it's not much good for anything else.


Tautologically yours,


David

--
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
            http://www.megginson.com/

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From dbox at develop.com  Sun Jan 30 05:26:45 2000
From: dbox at develop.com (Box, Don)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Data exchange BOF at Netscape
Message-ID: <824EAE80328AD311B2590090276267820AE1E9@mail.develop.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gregory M. Messner [mailto:gmessner@vsi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2000 7:41 AM
> To: xml-interest@java.sun.com; xml-dev-digest@ic.ac.uk
> Cc: Bill la Forge
> Subject: Data exchange BOF at Netscape
> 
> 
> On Jan 25 a BOF meeting was held at Netscape to primarially discuss
> application data exchange.  For those of us that were not 
> able to attend,
> does anyone have meeting notes or any information on the gathering?
> 
Check the archives of the SOAP list for a post-mortem of the meeting
(http://discuss.develop.com/soap.html). 

The BOF was largely inconclusive. I missed the first half, but my take on
the event was that half the world disliked HTTP and an application protocol,
the other half disliked XML as an encoding scheme, with a small but real
amount of overlap between the two factions, leaving room for SOAP or a
committee-invented equivalent. I am not sure we need another
transport/framing protocol to complement HTTP and GIOP, yet some people
seemed interested in coming up with one. I am not sure we need another
encoding protocol to complement XML, CDR, NDR, XDR, and ASN.1 BER, yet some
people seemed interested in coming up with one of those too. 

DB
http://www.develop.com/dbox

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From hf at daisybytes.su.uunet.de  Sun Jan 30 10:01:21 2000
From: hf at daisybytes.su.uunet.de (Holger =?iso-8859-1?Q?Fl=F6rke?=)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
In-Reply-To: <14481.56414.744229.568251@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <3.0.5.32.20000130105614.00bd8340@kelly>

> The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download at
>  ...

In December 1999 was a discussion about the SAX/C++ interface in XML-DEV.
Lots of comments have been made to the first draft of David Megginson. Now
the beta of SAX2/Java is released, but there was no specification of
SAX/C++. Did I miss something? When SAX/C++ will be released?

HolgeR
---------------------------------------------- daisy bytes! ---------
 Holger Floerke                                
 hf@daisybytes.su.uunet.de              digital document processing
 http://www.pweb.de/daisybytes.su           electronic publishing

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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Sun Jan 30 10:20:15 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
In-Reply-To: <14481.56414.744229.568251@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <E12ErSl-000KKs-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>

At 01:13 PM 1/28/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
>SAX is the Simple API for XML, a very-widely implemented event-based
>interface for processing XML documents.
>
>The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download at
>
>  http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/
>
I would like to thank David publicly for his commitment to bringing this
forward. Anyone familiar with the release of SAX1 (at approximately the
same time of year!) required a huge amount of work. [For those new to
XML-DEV the history is spelled out on the SAX site]

It would be useful (and I am sure encouraging) if the authors of current
tools would find the time and effort to produce beta SAX2-aware versions.
This is one of the sure ways of highlighting what works and what doesn't.
It will be an important step towards getting namespaces more widely used.

	P.



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Sun Jan 30 10:20:15 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: EDITORIAL (was: Re: Seeking a Dao of Groves)
In-Reply-To: <m3901a8hc7.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
References: <200001281048.LAA16361@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>
 <m3k8kvg6z8.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no>
 <200001281048.LAA16361@goofy.gr05.synopsys.com>
Message-ID: <E12ErSj-000KKs-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>

At 02:18 PM 1/28/00 +0100, Lars Marius Garshol wrote:
>
>* Simon North
>|
>| Lars Marius Garshol said:
>| 
[... misattributed quote ...]
>
>Just for the record: that quote was by Uche Ogbuji, not me. 

A moderatorial encouragement to try to always include the source of a
quotation. [There have been a few recently where I would be unable to
determine the source and even whether it can from the list. I also express
a preference for putting the quoted material before the reply. And, in
general, keeping the quoted material short.]

I look at the postings on XML-DEV in a new light because we are clearly
seeing a need for careful explanation of many of the aspects of "XML". [I
use this term to cover the subjects that come up on this list :-) - they
include philosophy and practice as well as syntax, semantics and software.]
I have the feeling that there are chunks of discussion which are important
for the correct interpretation and implementation and benefit from being:
	- identified for "posterity" [this could be as little as a few days' hence!]
	- abstracted.
I am pleased and flattered to see the existence of secondary publications
(eclectic and XML-deviant) which at least tackle the first. We have a good
history of postings to this list which have encapsulated the current wisdom
at that time. For example, about 2.5 years ago I used this list to raise my
inability to understand groves culminating in a posting from James Clark
about a Simple Property Set for XML. [I can't give the ref as I can't
immediately find the posting - this highlights a point below!] 

At one stage I abstracted the list on an ad hoc basis, creating
"XML-Jewels", which lasted for about a year. Some people found this useful.
It died from problems of time and also because there were other sites which
fulfilled some functions better (e.g. listing parsers, DTDs, etc.) However
it did a have modest role as index and commentary.

Because of the very high quality of many individual postings, and also of
some threads I am wondering how we may be able to index these at the time.
The hypermail system has never been under our control and so we couldn't
add feedback forms, for example, but in principle it could be useful for
readers (or editors!) to be able to flag/index those postings which were of
special value - there have been many. But most readers aren't aware of
them, and we don't have very precise search tools.

	Are there opportunities here? Either for greater input of metadata by
authors, or by editors?

	P.


   

>
>--Lars M.
>
>
>xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
>Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN
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>Unsubscribe by posting to majordom@ic.ac.uk the message
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>
>Please note: New list subscriptions now closed in preparation for transfer
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> 

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From david at megginson.com  Sun Jan 30 13:45:55 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.20000130105614.00bd8340@kelly>
References: <14481.56414.744229.568251@localhost.localdomain>
	<3.0.5.32.20000130105614.00bd8340@kelly>
Message-ID: <14484.16423.207749.792215@localhost.localdomain>

Holger Fl?rke writes:

 > > The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download at
 > >  ...
 > 
 > In December 1999 was a discussion about the SAX/C++ interface in XML-DEV.
 > Lots of comments have been made to the first draft of David Megginson. Now
 > the beta of SAX2/Java is released, but there was no specification of
 > SAX/C++. Did I miss something? When SAX/C++ will be released?

Many people recommended finishing SAX2/Java first, so that SAX/C++
could be based on SAX2 rather than SAX 1.0. I don't know when we'll
have a SAX/C++ -- perhaps I can start during the SAX2/Java beta
period, but it will depend on how much free time I can scrape
together.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From jcagle104 at hotmail.com  Sun Jan 30 17:51:08 2000
From: jcagle104 at hotmail.com (Joey Cagle)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <20000130175029.4291.qmail@hotmail.com>

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From costello at mitre.org  Sun Jan 30 18:47:31 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
Message-ID: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org>

Hi Folks,

I have created an XML Schema document for juice machines. Part of the
description of each juice machine is its cost. One of the first things
that I did is create a money datatype:

    <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
        <scale value="2"/>
    </datatype>

Then, I declared the cost element to be of type money:

    <element name="cost" type="money"/>

Seems reasonable, right?  Well, the next thing that I wanted to do was
to add an attribute - currency - to the cost element.  This is where I
ran into problems.  Attributes are typically declared like this:

    <element name="cost">
        <type>
            <attribute name="currency" type="string" minOccurs="1"/> 
        <type>
    </element>

This declares currency to be a required attribute of cost.  However, in
adding this attribute, we have lost our nice typing of cost to money
(i.e., cost of datatype money).

Unless I am missing something obvious (which may well be the case),
there is no way to specify a datatype for an element as well as assign
attributes to it ...  I must not be thinking clearly.  Can someone tell
me how to assign cost the datatype money as well as giving it the
attribute currency?  To provide more context to my question, I have
included below the complete XML Schema which I am trying to enhance to
give cost the attribute currency.  /Roger

------------------------------------------------------------
                  juicers.xsd
------------------------------------------------------------
<?xml version="1.0"?>
<!DOCTYPE schema SYSTEM "xml-schema.dtd"[
<!ATTLIST schema xmlns:j CDATA #IMPLIED>
]>
<schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
               targetNamespace="http://www.juicers.org"
               xmlns:j="http://www.juicers.org">
    <element name="warranty" type="string"/>
    <element name="guarantee" equivClass="j:warranty" type="string"/>
    <type name="appliance">
        <element name="description" type="string"/>
        <element ref="j:warranty"/>
    </type>
    <type name="juiceAppliance" source="j:appliance"
derivedBy="extension">
        <element name="name" type="string"/>
        <element name="image" type="imageType"/>
        <element name="weight" type="integer"/>
        <element name="cost" type="money" maxOccurs="*"/>
        <element name="retailer" type="uri"/>
        <attribute name="id" type="ID" minOccurs="1"/>
        <attribute name="electric" type="boolean" minOccurs="1"/>
        <attribute name="type" minOccurs="1">
            <datatype source="string">
                <enumeration value="press"/>
                <enumeration value="gear"/>
                <enumeration value="centrifugal"/>
            </datatype>
        </attribute>
    </type>
    <element name="juicers">
        <type>
            <element name="juicer" type="j:juiceAppliance" 
                     minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
        </type>
    </element>
    <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
        <scale value="2"/>
    </datatype>
    <datatype name="imageType" source="string">
        <pattern value="(.)*.gif"/>
        <pattern value="(.)*.jpeg"/>
        <pattern value="(.)*.jpg"/>
        <pattern value="(.)*.bmp"/>
    </datatype>
</schema>


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From charles at wiltgen.net  Sun Jan 30 22:25:10 2000
From: charles at wiltgen.net (Charles Wiltgen)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <1.02-66976-759-A@exemplary.net>
Message-ID: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>

Hello,

I'm a newbie on XML Dev, here because I've been pushing XML as a standard
way of representing settings, annotations, etc. in a product called Media
Cleaner Pro <http://www.terran.com/> (which I'm the product manager for).

I know more about XML than anyone at our company, which is too say that I
know almost nothing about XML compared to most of the folks on this list.
When you see stupid questions from me, please be patient -- my goal is
purely to Do The Right Thing.   :^)

Naturally, we're working on an XML parser.  We've started writing one from
scratch, but I was wondering if there's something out there that we can use
as a good starting point for our commercial, cross-platform product?

Thanks!

-- 
Charles Wiltgen



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From peter at ursus.demon.co.uk  Mon Jan 31 00:06:06 2000
From: peter at ursus.demon.co.uk (Peter Murray-Rust)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: Introduction
In-Reply-To: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
References: <1.02-66976-759-A@exemplary.net>
Message-ID: <E12F4Ly-000NGW-0K@tele-post-20.mail.demon.net>

At 02:25 PM 1/30/00 -0800, Charles Wiltgen wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm a newbie on XML Dev,

We are delighted to have new members on XML-DEV. Just to reassure any
newbies, if you find some of the current discussions are difficult to
understand, don't give up! I was in your position a few years ago [although
I still find some of the stuff hard!].

> here because I've been pushing XML as a standard
>way of representing settings, annotations, etc. in a product called Media
>Cleaner Pro <http://www.terran.com/> (which I'm the product manager for).
>
>I know more about XML than anyone at our company, which is too say that I
>know almost nothing about XML compared to most of the folks on this list.
>When you see stupid questions from me, please be patient -- my goal is
>purely to Do The Right Thing.   :^)

I have asked some stupid questions in my time! The main thing is to try to
do sufficient initial reading/browsing, but you will always get a courteous
answer from someone. [This is a very helpful community]. And some of the
questions are not as simple as they may look :-). 


>
>Naturally, we're working on an XML parser.  We've started writing one from
>scratch, but I was wondering if there's something out there that we can use
>as a good starting point for our commercial, cross-platform product?

There are a huge number of parsers. Unless you actually enjoy writing
parsers (and some people do) I would strongly suggest you use one of them.
If you *do* write a parser, you will need to understand XML V1.0 *very*
well. It's not easy reading. I have just written a book review in which I
liken the spec to a parliamentary act - precise, concise and generating
huge amounts of discussion. There are many hundreds of conformance tests
which your parser needs to be measured against.

There are GPL or similar offerings in C++, Java, perl, Python, etc. and
they have been tested by tens of thousands of people. That would be my
first thought, even in a commercial product. 

	Best wishes

	P.


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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 31 00:44:25 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
References: <E12ErSl-000KKs-0U@anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net>
Message-ID: <3894DADE.E8F1633B@pacbell.net>

Peter Murray-Rust wrote:
> 
> At 01:13 PM 1/28/00 -0500, David Megginson wrote:
> >SAX is the Simple API for XML, a very-widely implemented event-based
> >interface for processing XML documents.
> >
> >The beta release of SAX2/Java is now available for download at
> >
> >  http://www.megginson.com/SAX/SAX2/
> >
> I would like to thank David publicly for his commitment to bringing this
> forward.

Ditto!

 
> It would be useful (and I am sure encouraging) if the authors of current
> tools would find the time and effort to produce beta SAX2-aware versions.

Working on it ... updating six SAX2 (alpha) parsers and the associated tools
(like DOM construction etc) takes time.  Also testing it all, even planning
a partial punt on application level testing.


> This is one of the sure ways of highlighting what works and what doesn't.
> It will be an important step towards getting namespaces more widely used.

Also, moving from DOM L1 to DOM L2 (which has namespace support).


One SAX beta problem:  compatibility.  With alpha it was natural for a
parser to easily implement both SAX1 and SAX2 ... not so with Beta.
(Note that it's not the path that DOM took.)  That makes it a lot more
likely that application level code will be disrupted.

There are also several places where a "raw-names" feature is used, more
or less as the converse of the documented "namespace-prefixes" feature.
Both control whether an "XML 1.0" view of the information is available
(with "xmlns*" attributes visible, and names in their original forms).
Of the two, "raw-names" makes a bit more sense to me, but I'd prefer to
see a name that connotes its function better, like "xml-names".

- Dave

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From kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp  Mon Jan 31 02:31:42 2000
From: kamiya at rp.open.cs.fujitsu.co.jp (Takuki Kamiya)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX2-beta (2000-01-28)
Message-ID: <03c201bf6b93$3ca19450$866e230a@sysrap.cs.fujitsu.co.jp>

I have downloaded and looked at SAX2 beta interfaces.

It looks nice. I look forward to seeing them implemented in parsers soon.

I have a comment regarding "org.xml.sax.ext.LexicalHandler".

LexicalHandler could have a method to provide internal DTD subset as a whole
to an application. This benefits those applications which try to restore
original document's doctype section as close as possible. I found DOM L2 as
it currently stands has a similar method in its DocumentType interface,
so its support also helps if you want to construct DOM L2 tree based on SAX2
events.

= Takuki Kamiya  Phone: (045)476-4586 Fax: (045)476-4749   =
= FUJITSU LIMITED (COINS:7128-4217 NIFTY:HHA01731)         =


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From rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net  Mon Jan 31 04:14:32 2000
From: rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net (Rahul Chugh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:41 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F84142E@INDUS>


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From tbray at textuality.com  Mon Jan 31 04:47:31 2000
From: tbray at textuality.com (Tim Bray)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH,
  andXML Infoset
Message-ID: <3.0.32.20000130204513.014da1c0@pop.intergate.ca>

At 10:36 PM 1/30/00 -0600, Eliot Kimber wrote:

>> But at this point in history it seems obvious that of
>> the 3 models of work we have before us (ISO, IETF, W3C), none can be
>> said to have been shown to be either triumphant or bankrupt, based
>> on results.  The most likely conclusion is that they excel in different
>> problem domains.
>
>I want to second this 

And for those who don't know, Eliot's been way deep into two of 'em.
Anyone here been around all three? -T.

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From abisheks at india.hp.com  Mon Jan 31 06:54:19 2000
From: abisheks at india.hp.com (Abhishek Srivastava)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Deleting a DOM Node 
Message-ID: <00fc01bf6bb7$e1f96b70$252f0a0f@india.hp.com>

Hi,

After Building a DOM Tree, can I delete a node from it ?
I am using the IBM's XML4C 2.3.1 parser.

Thanks,
Abhishek.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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   _/                Hewlett Packard ISO       
  _/_/_/   _/_/_/    -------------------   
 _/    /   _/   _/     (Work)   +91-80-2251554 x1190
_/  _/   _/_/_/      (Ip)     15.10.47.37            
        _/           (Url)    http://sites.netscape.net/abhishes/index.html                        
       _/            
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                     Dance like no one is watching.
                     And love like you've never been hurt.
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From rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net  Mon Jan 31 07:21:07 2000
From: rchugh at quark.stpm.soft.net (Rahul Chugh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: No subject
Message-ID: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F841571@INDUS>


Hi again
I need a program in Jva which uses XML4J libraries.
the program takes the input as dtd files in command line 
and shows the top most element
as well as the the sub elements down to the leaf node elements
please help me out 
since i dont know java 
but i have those libraries.


With Regards
Rahul chugh


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From paul at prescod.net  Mon Jan 31 09:24:12 2000
From: paul at prescod.net (Paul Prescod)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Seeking a Dao of Groves
References: <200001281009.DAA08207@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <389550A2.E4ADC4D1@prescod.net>

There are may ideas that the W3C could borrow from the "grove world"
(or even just from computer science) without learning about groves:

 * the syntax of a language, notation, convention, etc. should not be
finalized until the data model is worked out. (we violated this rule
when we invented XML) The syntax should reflect the data model.

 * an API for a language should not be finalized until the language's
data model is worked out. The API should reflect the data model.

 * addressing and query languages should not be finalized until the
language's data model is worked out. The query languages should reflect
the data model.

 * data models should be in a syntax that computers can "grok" so that
the computers can help you write software like query engines and API
implementations.

The first three are more important than the last.

The latest XLink specs show that we have made a little progress on these
issues in the last two years. The XLink does not normatively describe a
data model but it at least references RDF in an informal, non-normative
way. Consider it an exercise for the reader: "you can complete this
specification if you feel like." I wonder if we'll have a normative data
model before XPath, the Infoset and the DOM all go in different
directions as they did for XML?

Here's more evidence of progress (you'll notice that unlike Steve I tend
to see the glass as half-full):

> Since in practice specialized processors of various kinds (XML 
> Schema processors or link processors, to name two) will need to 
> provide information not included in the maximal info set defined 
> here, it is highly desirable that the Infoset spec be supplemented by 
> a specification describing explicitly how to define new packages or 
> modules of information items which must, may, or should be provided to 
> downstream apps by specialized processors of various types. Such an 
> explicit description would allow the task of elaborating the info 
> set for various specialized purposes to be distributed, and avoid 
> a continuous stream of requests that the infoset be extended to 
> handle this or that specialized form of information. My 
> personal view is that such a description should be made part 
> of the Infoset spec itself. Others have said they fear it would 
> delay the Infoset spec, and that the meta-description should be 
> in a separate document.

A formalism for defining data models of markup-based system? Sounds
familiar! It may be a year or two late to be defining a foundational
formalism for information sets but it seems to me that it is better late
than never.
-- 
 Paul Prescod  - ISOGEN Consulting Engineer speaking for himself
"The calculus and the rich body of mathematical analysis to which it
gave rise made modern science possible, but it was the algorithm that
made possible the modern world." 
        - from "Advent of the Algorithm" David Berlinski
	http://www.opengroup.com/mabooks/015/0151003386.shtml

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From sunker at telkom.net  Mon Jan 31 10:24:14 2000
From: sunker at telkom.net (Sunker)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <002f01bf6bd5$df334af0$2e5810ac@koksang>


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From Teun.Duynstee at macaw.nl  Mon Jan 31 10:33:45 2000
From: Teun.Duynstee at macaw.nl (Teun Duynstee)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: How are attributes handled in Ranges? 
Message-ID: <E77DE7E35B22D3118D3C00A0C942EC5222D188@EXCHSRV01>

Hi,

I have been trying to understand how attributes are handled as a part of a
range. 
What I understand from the XPointer WD is that a range that starts within an
attribute value must also end within that attribute value, but what if the
attribute is carried by an element that is part of the range? Is the
attribute also in the range? And what if only the content of the element is
in the range? And what about ordering?

In the XPointer WD it says:
For a node-point with a zero index, the container node is also the
immediately preceding node unless it has any attribute or namespace nodes.
If the container node does have attribute or namespace nodes, then the
immediately preceding node is the last of those nodes. 

So: the attribute is not one of the childnodes that can be identified using
the element as container and an index to point to the right node (this seams
right to me: attributes are not on the child axis). But for the first child
element, the last attribute of the parent _is_ the immediately preceding
node. 

This confuses me a little. Maybe it's not that important, but if anyone
could clear this up for me, I'd be grateful.

Thx,

Teun Duynstee

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From ntrrajani at agnisoft.com  Mon Jan 31 11:40:41 2000
From: ntrrajani at agnisoft.com (Rajani Kanth)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Unsubscribe
Message-ID: <002701bf6bdf$c56876e0$0d00005a@agnisoft.com>




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From costello at mitre.org  Mon Jan 31 11:50:05 2000
From: costello at mitre.org (Roger L. Costello)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: XML Schema Question: attributing an element with a datatype?
References: <389487B5.4AC9F4E2@mitre.org>
Message-ID: <38957750.440819EC@mitre.org>

I reckon that I will answer my own question.  To give the cost element
an attribute currency, where the type of cost is the datatype money, you
declare it as follows:

            <element name="cost">
                <type source="money">
                    <attribute name="currency" minOccurs="1">
                        <datatype name="currencies" source="string">
                            <enumeration value="USD"/>
                            <enumeration value="CND"/>
                        </datatype>
                    </attribute>
                </type>
            </element>

The element "type" has an optional attribute "source" which I set to the
datatype "money".  

"money" is defined as:

    <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
        <scale value="2"/>
    </datatype>

/Roger


Roger Costello wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks,
> 
> I have created an XML Schema document for juice machines. Part of the
> description of each juice machine is its cost. One of the first things
> that I did is create a money datatype:
> 
>     <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
>         <scale value="2"/>
>     </datatype>
> 
> Then, I declared the cost element to be of type money:
> 
>     <element name="cost" type="money"/>
> 
> Seems reasonable, right?  Well, the next thing that I wanted to do was
> to add an attribute - currency - to the cost element.  This is where I
> ran into problems.  Attributes are typically declared like this:
> 
>     <element name="cost">
>         <type>
>             <attribute name="currency" type="string" minOccurs="1"/>
>         <type>
>     </element>
> 
> This declares currency to be a required attribute of cost.  However, in
> adding this attribute, we have lost our nice typing of cost to money
> (i.e., cost of datatype money).
> 
> Unless I am missing something obvious (which may well be the case),
> there is no way to specify a datatype for an element as well as assign
> attributes to it ...  I must not be thinking clearly.  Can someone tell
> me how to assign cost the datatype money as well as giving it the
> attribute currency?  To provide more context to my question, I have
> included below the complete XML Schema which I am trying to enhance to
> give cost the attribute currency.  /Roger
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>                   juicers.xsd
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> <?xml version="1.0"?>
> <!DOCTYPE schema SYSTEM "xml-schema.dtd"[
> <!ATTLIST schema xmlns:j CDATA #IMPLIED>
> ]>
> <schema xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/XMLSchema"
>                targetNamespace="http://www.juicers.org"
>                xmlns:j="http://www.juicers.org">
>     <element name="warranty" type="string"/>
>     <element name="guarantee" equivClass="j:warranty" type="string"/>
>     <type name="appliance">
>         <element name="description" type="string"/>
>         <element ref="j:warranty"/>
>     </type>
>     <type name="juiceAppliance" source="j:appliance"
> derivedBy="extension">
>         <element name="name" type="string"/>
>         <element name="image" type="imageType"/>
>         <element name="weight" type="integer"/>
>         <element name="cost" type="money" maxOccurs="*"/>
>         <element name="retailer" type="uri"/>
>         <attribute name="id" type="ID" minOccurs="1"/>
>         <attribute name="electric" type="boolean" minOccurs="1"/>
>         <attribute name="type" minOccurs="1">
>             <datatype source="string">
>                 <enumeration value="press"/>
>                 <enumeration value="gear"/>
>                 <enumeration value="centrifugal"/>
>             </datatype>
>         </attribute>
>     </type>
>     <element name="juicers">
>         <type>
>             <element name="juicer" type="j:juiceAppliance"
>                      minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
>         </type>
>     </element>
>     <datatype name="money" source="decimal">
>         <scale value="2"/>
>     </datatype>
>     <datatype name="imageType" source="string">
>         <pattern value="(.)*.gif"/>
>         <pattern value="(.)*.jpeg"/>
>         <pattern value="(.)*.jpg"/>
>         <pattern value="(.)*.bmp"/>
>     </datatype>
> </schema>
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
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From Steve.Ball at zveno.com  Mon Jan 31 11:57:20 2000
From: Steve.Ball at zveno.com (Steve Ball)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Introduction
References: <B4B9FA42.107A8%charles@wiltgen.net>
Message-ID: <38965BFB.54D0B498@zveno.com>

Dear Charles,

On XML-DEV you wrote:
> Naturally, we're working on an XML parser.  We've started writing one from
> scratch, but I was wondering if there's something out there that we can use
> as a good starting point for our commercial, cross-platform product?

If others haven't already told you, don't bother reinventing
the wheel.  There are already literally dozens of XML parsers
now available for a variety of languages and platforms.
Do you require a validating or non-validating parser?

As far as cross-platform parsers go, there are the many Java-based
parsers.  I have written a couple of parsers for the Tcl scripting
language (itself a cross-platform environment) which many different
people are using in many ways.

Firstly, there's TclExpat - a wrapper for James Clark's expat
XML parser.  Also there's TclXML, a XML parser written entirely
in Tcl - slow, but some people seem to like it %-}  Both of these
are Open Source and may be (and are) used in commercial apps.

Hope that helps,
Steve Ball

-- 
Steve Ball            |   Swish XML Editor    | Training & Seminars
Zveno Pty Ltd         |   Web Tcl Complete    |      XML XSL
http://www.zveno.com/ |    TclXML TclDOM      | Tcl, Web Development
Steve.Ball@zveno.com  +-----------------------+---------------------
Ph. +61 2 6242 4099   | Mobile (0413) 594 462 | Fax +61 2 6242 4099

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From jgp at 4js.com  Mon Jan 31 12:50:04 2000
From: jgp at 4js.com (Jean Georges PERRIN)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: SAX (Introduction, Recomandations, Future...)
Message-ID: <NDBBIAIPJBHEKEDFKCJGAEAODGAA.jgp@4js.com>

Hi,

I've been playing a bit with DOM and understood that DOM is maintained and
updated by the W3C.

What about SAX ?

How did it appear ?

Who's in charge of it ?

Where can I find specs, API description, etc. ?

TIA

Jean Georges PERRIN
--
Four J's Development Tools (www.4js.com)
jgp@4js.com - Tel +33 (0)3 88 18 61 20 - Fax +33 (0)3 88 18 61 21
--
CAUTION: import com.fourjs.StandardDisclaimer;


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From jwelsh at astonbrooke.com  Mon Jan 31 12:54:22 2000
From: jwelsh at astonbrooke.com (Jeffrey Welsh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <NDBBJILFALKAEMGODPFDCEEOCAAA.jwelsh@astonbrooke.com>



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From abiasuzzi at objectdesign.it  Mon Jan 31 13:06:18 2000
From: abiasuzzi at objectdesign.it (Andrea Biasuzzi)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev abiasuzzi@objectdesign.it
Message-ID: <389588A3.F3DF43E2@objectdesign.it>

unsubscribe xml-dev abiasuzzi@objectdesign.it





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From imehta at quark.stpm.soft.net  Mon Jan 31 13:28:33 2000
From: imehta at quark.stpm.soft.net (Iresh Mehta)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: DTD Parser
Message-ID: <5B4E61F00724D31199120008C79A946F02BF56@INDUS>

Hi all,

I'm desperately in need of an API (in C++ or Java) that can help me in
parsing a DTD file (standalone or referred from an XML file). I need to
parse a given DTD and show the DTD visually in a tree structure quite
similar to IBM's Visual Transformation or Visual DTD tool, or something like
XML Authority.

Currently I know of only the xmlproc parser that includes a DTD parsing API.
However this parser is written in Python and I don't want to spend time on
porting it to C++ or Java (if a port already exists please let me know). An
old version of XML4J also seems to contain an API for the same purpose (ver
1.1.9 perhaps), but the latest version does not.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Iresh

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From jwelsh at astonbrooke.com  Mon Jan 31 14:01:53 2000
From: jwelsh at astonbrooke.com (Jeffrey Welsh)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev jwelsh@astonbrooke.com
Message-ID: <NDBBJILFALKAEMGODPFDIEEPCAAA.jwelsh@astonbrooke.com>

unsubscribe xml-dev jwelsh@astonbrooke.com

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From ald_blk at hotmail.com  Mon Jan 31 14:35:42 2000
From: ald_blk at hotmail.com (ashutosh dandavate)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <20000131143506.26172.qmail@hotmail.com>

hi,
i want to unsubscribe from this.i cant handle the
amounts of mails pouring in.
ashutosh
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From elee at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan 31 15:13:07 2000
From: elee at us.ibm.com (elee@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe
Message-ID: <85256877.0053865E.00@D51MTA07.pok.ibm.com>

I like to unsubsribe the xml-dev.
Thanks,



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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 31 15:10:39 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: ANN: XTech 2000 in San Jose
Message-ID: <14485.42457.501283.167003@localhost.localdomain>

Jon Bosak, Tim Bray, and I are co-chairing XTech 2000 in San Jose,
from Sunday, February 27 to Thursday March 2 (tutorials Sunday and
Monday, conference papers Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday):

  http://www.gca.org/attend/2000_conferences/xtech_2000/default.htm

I'd like to encourage the members of XML-Dev to attend.  This is
primarily a hard-core XML developers' conference (we provide a one-day
management track to entertain any executives who come along with you),
and the papers cover a lot of ground, from Apache to SML to
XML-controlled robots (really).

We're also trying out a new evening event, called "Town Hall
Meetings": on the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, after dinner, we're
going to hold open-mike town-hall meetings on key W3C standards.  Key
members of the XML Schema (Tuesday) and XML Query (Wednesday) working
groups will be up on the stage for an hour to take questions, listen
to suggestions, soak up praise, endure abuse, hold straw polls, or
whatever else the audience decides to do.  If this works out well, we
might be able to convince the W3C groups to do the same thing at other
conferences.

I hope to see a lot of you there next month.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Mon Jan 31 16:16:15 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675291@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

First I'd like to like to follow all the other people who've 
posted, and thank David for all the work he's put in on SAX 
2.0. I'd also like to second the plea that parser implementors 
start migrating to it.

There are, however, a few areas where I think a little bit more 
needs to be done. I've put my code where my mouth is, and 
written up and implemented a set of proposals for additions to 
SAX 2.0beta. These proposals mostly cover things that have 
already been discussed on this list,

* A means of querying an XMLReader implementations features 
  without first having to instantiate an XMLReader.

* A plug'n'play XMLReader factory which supports multiple 
  parsers and transparent adaptation of SAX 1 parsers.

* An extended ParserAdapter which exposes a SAX 1 parsers
  support for validation.

* A couple of utility interfaces which bundle up the standard 
  SAX 2.0 feature and property identifiers.

Other than the factory (which depends on being able to query an 
implementations features without prior instantiation) these are 
all independent rather than coming as a monolithic bundle.

Detailed descriptions and downloads can be found here,

  http://www3.mistral.co.uk/miles/

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From prasadm at crt.com  Mon Jan 31 16:32:16 2000
From: prasadm at crt.com (prasadm@crt.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
Message-ID: <F931488C3634D11180D700A02461E245023D6659@chitmd03.nt.il.nbgfn.com>

Hi,

Thanks for your time. I have tried what you have suggested and that works
fine.
But what I am trying to do is.

<xsl:template match="ROW">
  <xsl:choose>
  <xsl:when test="position()=0">
	<TABLE BORDER="0"/>
	 <xsl:apply-templates/>
  </xsl:when>
  <xsl:when test="position() div 10 = 1">
	</TABLE/>           			
  </xsl:when>
  <xsl:otherwise>
	<xsl:apply-templates/>
  </xsl:otherwise>
  </xsl:choose>
</xsl:template>

Since the parser was giving an error on the </TABLE/> line, I tried using
&lt;/TABLE/&gt;
but this tag would appear on the browser rather than being interpreted as a
markup.
Is there any other way of accomplishing this, I wanted to know.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Another simple question, is it possible to add a node in an XML document at
some reqular intervals.
like. For eg: Say, I have a XML doc. with 400 rows. I want to insert a
<LAYER></LAYER>
tag between every 20 documents. The XML doc. after the insertion should look
like this.

<ROWSET>
<LAYER num="1">
<ROW id="1">
......
</ROW>
<ROW id="2">
......
</ROW>
<ROW id="3">
......
</ROW>
....
...
<ROW id="20">
......
</ROW>
</LAYER>
<LAYER num="2">
....
.....
</LAYER>
</ROWSET>

How can this be done? If anyone has a sample code, it would
be helpful. 


-- Prasad


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	THOMAS PASSIN [SMTP:tpassin@idsonline.com]
> Sent:	Friday, January 28, 2000 7:25 PM
> To:	prasadm@crt.com; xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Subject:	Re: Creating HTML tags through XSL.
> 
> <prasadm@crt.com> wrote
> 
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Asking for help once again. Has anyone been successful in creating HTML
> > tags through XSL. What really my problem is we have an XML document of
> > say 100 records. Now I want to split them up into 10 layers/div's
> containing
> > 10 rows
> > in each page. I want to create something like this.
> >
> > <xsl:template match="ROW">
> >     &lt; /TABLE &gt;
> >     &lt; /FORM &gt;
> > <xsl:apply-templates/>
> > </xsl:template>
> >
> > The above XSL should generate for me the tags
> > </TABLE></FORM> as part of the html doc being created. But instead
> > these tags appear on the browser. Is there anyway to force these tags
> > to be part of the html doc. or Is it not possible at all?
> >
> If you use the entities &lt; and so on, you will get those CHARACTERS (not
> markup) in the output.  But they will be excaped characters, not markup,
> as
> you have seen.
> If you want to output a table element, you need to output  complete
> elements, possibly like this:
> 
> <xsl:template match="ROW">
> <table><form><xsl:apply-templates/></form</table>
> </xsl:template>
> 
> There are other possiblities, but this is the easiest.
> 
> Tom Passin
> 
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
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From gilmore at xs4all.nl  Mon Jan 31 17:04:45 2000
From: gilmore at xs4all.nl (Gilmore)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:42 2004
Subject: unsubscribe xml-dev gilmore@xs4all.nl
Message-ID: <LPBBKJGKMJNJIMMNKBFEIEGOCBAA.gilmore@xs4all.nl>



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From david-b at pacbell.net  Mon Jan 31 18:38:57 2000
From: david-b at pacbell.net (David Brownell)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675291@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <3895D244.4FC50C40@pacbell.net>

Miles Sabin wrote:
> 
>   http://www3.mistral.co.uk/miles/

Cool -- I'll look at it and comment.  I've certainly noticed a few
issues with the beta code drop, and the factory issue is one of them.


Now, it's been quite some time since I looked at Sun's proposal,
since it seemed too limited to be useful.  One of the few things
that seemd potentially interesting was a factory API that gave some
control over the objects returned -- you could say you needed a
validating parser, and that's what you'd get.

This is a call for comments on that functionality, which is (it
seems to me) what many applications would need.

The "XMLReaderImplementation" class you propose could be used by
such a factory to do its work.  Alternatively, such a factory
could be driven by a config file (in XML :-) describing various
parsers that are available.

- Dave

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From msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk  Mon Jan 31 18:46:01 2000
From: msabin at cromwellmedia.co.uk (Miles Sabin)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
Message-ID: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675295@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>

David Brownell wrote,

> Now, it's been quite some time since I looked at Sun's proposal,
> since it seemed too limited to be useful.  One of the few things
> that seemd potentially interesting was a factory API that gave 
> some control over the objects returned -- you could say you 
> needed a validating parser, and that's what you'd get.

Last time I looked Sun's stuff wasn't nearly as useful as you
suggest. Basically they've thrown away ParserFactory and
replaced it with something similar which (presumably) sits on
top of their J2EE config files. As far as I remember there's no
way of specifying a particular set of Parser features.

> The "XMLReaderImplementation" class you propose could be used by
> such a factory to do its work.

Indeed ... and that's exactly what I've done. Check out
org.xml.sax.helpers.XMLReaderImplementations (note the plural).

> Alternatively, such a factory could be driven by a config file 
> (in XML :-) describing various parsers that are available.

That's the strategy I took for the transparent SAX 1 adaptor
stuff. Not XML tho' ... too many chicken and egg problems I
fear ;-)

Cheers,


Miles

-- 
Miles Sabin                       Cromwell Media
Internet Systems Architect        5/6 Glenthorne Mews
+44 (0)20 8817 4030               London, W6 0LJ, England
msabin@cromwellmedia.com          http://www.cromwellmedia.com/


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From srn at techno.com  Mon Jan 31 21:13:54 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: XTech 2000 in San Jose
In-Reply-To: <14485.42457.501283.167003@localhost.localdomain> (message from
	David Megginson on Mon, 31 Jan 2000 10:10:17 -0500 (EST))
References: <14485.42457.501283.167003@localhost.localdomain>
Message-ID: <200001311929.NAA01123@bruno.techno.com>

> We're also trying out a new evening event, called "Town Hall
> Meetings": on the Tuesday and Wednesday evenings, after dinner, we're
> going to hold open-mike town-hall meetings on key W3C standards.

Why limit the topics of discussion to "key W3C standards"?  This
doesn't sound like a Town Hall Meeting to me.  It sounds much more
like a meeting of a particular political party.  At a Town Hall
Meeting, by contrast, persons of all political persuasions and
allegiances can be heard, and all topics of common interest to the
residents of the Town can be discussed.

Perhaps more to the point, who is paying for the meeting space and the
open mike?  If it's the participants in XTech 2000, by means of their
conference registration fees, then why aren't *they* in control of the
agenda?

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
7101 Chase Oaks Boulevard 
Plano, Texas 75025 USA

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From srn at techno.com  Mon Jan 31 21:14:10 2000
From: srn at techno.com (Steven R. Newcomb)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Call for unifying and clarifying XML 1.0, DOM, XPATH, and XML  Infoset
In-Reply-To: <f5bn1ppnhsv.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk> (ht@cogsci.ed.ac.uk)
References: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001261547570.2301-100000@goedel.astro.gla.ac.uk> <m3snzi6yfx.fsf@lambda.garshol.priv.no> <200001282339.RAA01290@bruno.techno.com> <f5bn1ppnhsv.fsf@cogsci.ed.ac.uk>
Message-ID: <200001312113.PAA01131@bruno.techno.com>

[Henry Thompson:]

> [The XML Schemas draft] certainly
> addresses the question of how a document containing multiple
> namespace-qualified information items can arrange for them to be
> validated by independent, pre-existing schemas for those namespaces.

Exactly how does such validation happen?  For example:

Namespace A's independent schema provides that B elements must contain
a C element and may contain a D element, and that no B may appear
inside a C or a D, and no C or D can appear outside a B.  In other
words (if you'll forgive me for expressing this using traditional DTD
syntax):

 <!ELEMENT A:B ( A:C, A:D?)>
 <!ELEMENT A:C ( #PCDATA)>
 <!ELEMENT A:D ( #PCDATA)>

Namespace F's independent schema provides that G elements may contain
H elements and/or PCDATA, that no G may appear inside an H, and that
no H may appear outside a G.

 <!ELEMENT F:G ( F:H | #PCDATA)* >
 <!ELEMENT F:H ( #PCDATA) >

Now I want to write documents in which, within the constraints
outlined above, I can freely mix A:B, A:C, A:D, F:G, and F:H elements.
In order to make it possible to interchange such documents
meaningfully (in a vendor-neutral, application-neutral etc. context),
I need a way to tell whether my use of each of these namespaces
conforms to its governing constraints.  Following are some questions
that, for whatever reasons, I haven't been able to answer
satisfactorily:

(1) What do I have to do to validate my document against namespace A's
    constraints independently of any validation of namespace F's
    constraints, and vice versa?

(2) If an A:B contains an F:G, I gather that it's OK from the
    perspective of namespace A (right?).  What does
    namespace-A-specific software do with the F:G?  Does it see the
    F:G at all?  If the F:G is hidden, how did it get hidden?  Should
    the A-namespace-specific software look inside the F:G for A:C
    and/or A:D elements?  Is it OK (and/or necessary, from the
    perspective of namespace A's constraints) for A:C and A:D elements
    to be inside the F:G element, or not?

(3) From the perspective of namespace A, what happens to the data
    content of an F:G element that's inside an A:B?  Similarly, what
    happens to the data content of an F:H element that's inside a F:G
    element that's inside an A:C?

(4) Why isn't it possible for an element to be both an A:B and an F:G?
    There seems to be no reason to prohibit this, because it does not
    violate the constraints of either namespace A or F.  There seems
    to be a good reason to allow it; otherwise, one must insert markup
    for an element that serves no purpose other than to accommodate a
    weakness in the XML namespace paradigm.  And, there's no basis for
    deciding, when authoring such a document, whether the A:B should
    be inside the F:G, or vice versa.

-Steve

--
Steven R. Newcomb, President, TechnoTeacher, Inc.
srn@techno.com  http://www.techno.com  ftp.techno.com

voice: +1 972 517 7954
fax    +1 972 517 4571

Suite 211
7101 Chase Oaks Boulevard 
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From simonstl at simonstl.com  Mon Jan 31 21:58:39 2000
From: simonstl at simonstl.com (Simon St.Laurent)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: query language
Message-ID: <200001312158.QAA14567@hesketh.net>

Querying XML has been a pretty regular issue on this list, and I thought
folks might want to see the Requirements draft that came out today:

http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlquery-req


I posted a brief story at xmlhack as well:

http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=247

Simon St.Laurent
XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
Building XML Applications
Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
http://www.simonstl.com

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From evermanm at tsainc.com  Mon Jan 31 22:15:11 2000
From: evermanm at tsainc.com (evermanm@tsainc.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Definition of code contents
Message-ID: <OF624FEC57.65B557DA-ON86256877.00787C60@tsainc.com>

XML is advertised as a way to define (or "mark up") your data to form 
meaningful documents or messages.  While the DTD or XML schemas work well 
to define the marking (or tagging) of data, it seems they to do little to 
define what the content of the data means.

For example, the data between a <NAME> start tag and a </NAME> end tag is 
presumed to be a character string containing a name.  The data between an 
<AMOUNT> start tag and an </AMOUNT> end tag is probably a string of 
numeric characters representing an amount.  However, what does the data 
between a <MARITALSTATUS> start tag and an </MARITALSTATUS> end tag mean. 
It can be assumed that the data indicates something about the person's 
marital status but what do the codes used in the data mean?  Maybe 0 means 
"single", 1 means "married", 2 means "divorced", etc.

How can the codes that are used in such cases be indicated in the DTD or 
schema?

Mark Everman
Lead System Engineer
ACI Worldwide, Inc.
(402)390-7756


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From vdv at dyomedea.com  Mon Jan 31 22:25:39 2000
From: vdv at dyomedea.com (Eric van der Vlist)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: query language
References: <200001312158.QAA14567@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <38960BF7.8683A917@dyomedea.com>

Hi Simon,

It's probably a naive question ;) but is there any link at all with XQL
?

Thanks

Eric

"Simon St.Laurent" wrote:
> 
> Querying XML has been a pretty regular issue on this list, and I thought
> folks might want to see the Requirements draft that came out today:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlquery-req
> 
> I posted a brief story at xmlhack as well:
> 
> http://www.xmlhack.com/read.php?item=247
> 
> Simon St.Laurent
> XML Elements of Style / XML: A Primer, 2nd Ed.
> Building XML Applications
> Inside XML DTDs: Scientific and Technical
> Cookies / Sharing Bandwidth
> http://www.simonstl.com
> 
> xml-dev: A list for W3C XML Developers. To post, mailto:xml-dev@ic.ac.uk
> Archived as: http://www.lists.ic.ac.uk/hypermail/xml-dev/ or CD-ROM/ISBN 981-02-3594-1
> Please note: New list subscriptions and unsubscriptions
> are  now ***CLOSED*** in preparation for list transfer to OASIS.

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric van der Vlist                                              Dyomedea

http://www.dyomedea.com                          http://www.ducotede.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From roddey at us.ibm.com  Mon Jan 31 22:56:41 2000
From: roddey at us.ibm.com (roddey@us.ibm.com)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: Non-Unicode Character Sets
Message-ID: <87256877.007D9F74.00@d53mta03h.boulder.ibm.com>




>I am told that conversion of some character sets through Unicode is
>lossy and cannot be round-tripped. But it occurs ot me that as long as
>one has the private use area, "unknown" characters can always be
>preserved. If a particular mapping loses information, isn't that more a
>weakness in the mapping then in Unicode itself? Are there some
>standardized national character sets with so many non-Unicode characters
>that they cannot fit into the PUA? Even with planes 15 and 16?

Don't know the answer to that, but just as a related aside...

In some cases the problem isn't round tripping, its 'half-tripping', due to
wierd design of the encoding. For instance, we have had some problems with
some Japanese and Korean encodings because of ambiguity between the
backslash and Yen sign. When you transcode that code point to Unicode, you
have to know the context of the text being transcoded in order to know
which translation is the correct one. If you transcode it to Yen, then if
you turn around and pass that text to say a 'file open' Unicode API in a
system that is inherently Unicode enabled, then it breaks because the
Unicode Yen sign probably isn't a legal path separator on that platform. If
you transcode it to backslash, and the text was a monetary value, then it
will be incorrect in its Unicode incarnation as well.

If you round trip it, its ok probably because both Unicode points can get
translated back to the single, ambiguous point, but then the software is
processed by an API that knows its dealing with this situation and can use
its context sensitivity to do the right thing (i.e. the file open knows
what that ambiguous code point means in that situation.)

Its all due to a psycho encoding design I guess, which could be mostly
dealt with when the code dealing with it was specific to that locale and
was dealing with it in the original encoding. But, once you move to a
Unicode world, and you have to make a choice between the two Unicode code
points to transcode to, it gets wierd and I don't see how it could really
be made to work consistently, since no one is going to write entire
software systems that carry around context information with the text
wherever it goes.

If some of you folks who deal with these encodings think I'm just confused,
please say so. But this is the best we can figure out with these types of
encodings.

----------------------------------------
Dean Roddey
Software Weenie
IBM Center for Java Technology - Silicon Valley
roddey@us.ibm.com



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From david at megginson.com  Mon Jan 31 23:05:16 2000
From: david at megginson.com (David Megginson)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: ANN: SAX 2.0 extension proposals.
In-Reply-To: Miles Sabin's message of "Mon, 31 Jan 2000 16:15:28 -0000"
References: <AA4C152BA2F9D211B9DD0008C79F760A675291@odin.cromwellmedia.co.uk>
Message-ID: <m33drdj10x.fsf@localhost.localdomain>

Miles Sabin <msabin@cromwellmedia.co.uk> writes:

> There are, however, a few areas where I think a little bit more 
> needs to be done. I've put my code where my mouth is, and 
> written up and implemented a set of proposals for additions to 
> SAX 2.0beta. These proposals mostly cover things that have 
> already been discussed on this list,

Thank you again for the feedback.

> * A means of querying an XMLReader implementations features 
>   without first having to instantiate an XMLReader.

That's not too hard: it would take only a few static methods.  There
are a couple of issues, though:

1. For a filter (which may be more common than a root reader), the
   features available depend on the features supported by the parent
   -- in other words, you cannot know what features are supported
   *until* the reader is instantiated.

2. You cannot enforce static methods with an interface, so they would
   have to be a matter of convention (like a no-argument constructor).

The second is minor, but the first may be much more serious.

> * A plug'n'play XMLReader factory which supports multiple 
>   parsers and transparent adaptation of SAX 1 parsers.

Does this belong in the SAX core, or should it be a higher-level app?
I ask because I'm trying to keep the core sax2.jar as small as
possible, since it will usually be only a minor part of an app.

> * An extended ParserAdapter which exposes a SAX 1 parsers
>   support for validation.

I don't know if this belongs in SAX1 per se, since there's no way to
know in the general case.  People writing adapters for specific SAX1
parsers (where validation is known) can extend ParserAdapter to add
that information.

> * A couple of utility interfaces which bundle up the standard 
>   SAX 2.0 feature and property identifiers.

Two issues here:

1. I'm trying to limit bloat.

2. I expect that the list of core feature and property identifiers
   will be able to grow *without* a new SAX release, so the class
   would become outdated.


All the best,


David

-- 
David Megginson                 david@megginson.com
           http://www.megginson.com/

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From bkline at rksystems.com  Mon Jan 31 23:06:02 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: query language
In-Reply-To: <200001312158.QAA14567@hesketh.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001311738170.7764-100000@rksystems.com>

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Simon St.Laurent wrote:

> Querying XML has been a pretty regular issue on this list, and I
> thought folks might want to see the Requirements draft that came out
> today:
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlquery-req
> 

I posted a question on this topic a week or so back, but it seems to
have fallen through the cracks as I haven't seen any responses, so I'll
ask again.

There doesn't seem to be any recognition (neither in the XQL drafts nor
in the XML Query requirements you just cited) of the need to refer to
the results of one query in the formulation of a subsequent query.

This could take two forms.  In the more modest of the two, it would be
useful if XQL (and whatever becomes the official recommendation for
querying XML, if it is not XQL) had the moral equivalent of the "IN
(...)" clause of SQL.  This would allow the somewhat more elegant and
less verbose enumeration of the list of values obtained from the earlier
query when formulating the new query.  For example:

//CdrDoc[@Type="Physician and DocId in ("cdr02345","cdr45198",...)]/DocId

rather than
            
//CdrDoc[@Type="Physician and
        (DocId="cdr02345" or
         DocId="cdr45198" or
         ...)]/DocId

This addition to the existing XQL syntax seems to us to be a natural
extension of the set of operators currently available.

A significantly more powerful addition would be the ability to use this
IN clause with a URI referring to an external list of values.  Such an
extension would support combination of query results without requiring
the client to embed potentially very long lists of values within the
body of the query proper.  There are obviously decisions which have to
be made about some of the details (for example, the format in which the
values are represented; the flavor of the URI, etc.).  We could go off
and come up with our own solutions, but it seems silly for lots of
different solutions to spring up, all incompatible with each other,
rather than adopting a common interoperable approach.

So, I'll ask once again: has anyone else tackled this problem?  Has a
solution been hammered out which we just haven't succeeded in finding
yet (for example, is there a later version of the XQL draft than the
one from last summer)?

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com



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From bkline at rksystems.com  Mon Jan 31 23:17:09 2000
From: bkline at rksystems.com (Bob Kline)
Date: Mon Jun  7 17:19:43 2004
Subject: query language
In-Reply-To: <38960BF7.8683A917@dyomedea.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.10.10001311810130.7764-100000@rksystems.com>

On Mon, 31 Jan 2000, Eric van der Vlist wrote:

> It's probably a naive question ;) but is there any link at all with
> XQL ?

The XQL spec is one of the candidates submitted to the XML Query
Language WG (another is XML-QL).  The members of the WG have been very
tight-lipped about what they're doing, so it's pretty difficult (or
impossible) for those not on the inside to make any project plans in
this area with any real confidence that they'll end up with designs that
are compatible with the adopted recommendation.

Unfortunately, this secrecy mindset appears to have bled over into the
work on XQL itself.  I haven't succeeded in getting any responses to
emails sent over the past months to the XQL mailing list or its members
(about questions such as: is there no more recent version of the XQL
draft than the one from last August?).

-- 
Bob Kline
mailto:bkline@rksystems.com
http://www.rksystems.com


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